Broken Flag

[jpenno]

Just looking for views

Played a friendly round yesterday, opening hole was a Par 3 155 yards into a strong wind.

Playing Partner missed green to the right, just short of pin high and with second shot puts from off the green and leaves the flag in.

As the ball rolls onto a sloping green so above the pin, a stong gust of wind breaks the flag and it falls in front of the ball which then tracks down the flagpole and into the hole for birdie!!

We just laughed it off calling him allsorts of names

What would have been the position in a comp?

 

[woody69]

I'm not expert, but rule 17 states the players ball must not strike the flagstick with the exception if the flagstick is attended, removed or held up without the players authority - see rule 17-2. Seeing as the wind can't incur a penalty I think that is a moot point, and the ball would have to played as it lies, but seeing as it went in the hole it counts. However if he had taken his stroke on the putting green and the same happened, i.e. the pin snapped before it was removed (whilst being tended) the stroke would have to be cancelled and replaced and replayed.

Could be wrong, but I think the birdie stands.

 

[jpenno]

Thats what we thought as off the green you can leave the flag unattended with no penalty for striking the flag.

 

[CliveW]

My feeling would be that the flagstick is by definition an Outside Agency and therefore Rule 19.1 would apply.

 

[woody69]

My feeling would be that the flagstick is by definition an Outside Agency and therefore Rule 19.1 would apply.

19-1 states if a players ball in motion is accidentally deflected or stopped by any outside agency, it is a rub of the green, there is no penalty and the ball must be played as lies. It notes if a player's ball in motion has been deliberately deflected or stopped by an outside agency after a stroke played from anywhere other than on the putting green, the spot where the ball would have come to rest must be estimated and if that spot is on the putting green the ball must be placed on that spot.

Surely a flag stick breaking would be classified as accidental and not deliberate?

 

[Colin L]

All the right things being said above. Yes, the bit broken off the flag is an outside agency and a ball deflected by it should be played as it lies - which in this case where the lad got a lucky, means he has holed out.

Putting from on the green, could be different. If the broken piece is not moving at the time the ball strikes it, you play the ball where it ends up just as above. But if the piece is moving when the ball hits it, the stroke is cancelled.

You might find Decision 17/9 relevant. http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Decision-17/#17/9 and while you are there, Decision 17/7 deals with an outside agency moving or not moving.

 

[duncan mackie]

My feeling would be that the flagstick is by definition an Outside Agency ....

please enlighten us - where exactly is this definition? Rule 24-1 tells us that an unattended flagstick is a moveable obstruction.

however, if part of the flagstick breaks off then that part would become an outside agency if detached.

it's a little difficult to visualise the exact circumstances from the OP as it starts with a break, but then references the ball tracking down the flagstick to the hole, as if basically the wind has blown the flagstick over (presumably not put back properly by the last group - which seems to be quite common in winter!). if it' just a broken bit then it's an OA and a moving ball striking it wouldn't be subject to penalty and would be played from where it comes to rest.

on that basis, as to the original question 17-3/3 (b) covers exactly this question and the ruling is "No penalty is incurred. Rule 17-3a is not applicable in either case. It applies only when the flagstick has been removed with the player's authority or prior knowledge by someone in the player's match or group."

 

[jpenno]

please enlighten us - where exactly is this definition? Rule 24-1 tells us that an unattended flagstick is a moveable obstruction.

however, if part of the flagstick breaks off then that part would become an outside agency if detached.

it's a little difficult to visualise the exact circumstances from the OP as it starts with a break, but then references the ball tracking down the flagstick to the hole, as if basically the wind has blown the flagstick over (presumably not put back properly by the last group - which seems to be quite common in winter!). if it' just a broken bit then it's an OA and a moving ball striking it wouldn't be subject to penalty and would be played from where it comes to rest.

on that basis, as to the original question 17-3/3 (b) covers exactly this question and the ruling is "No penalty is incurred. Rule 17-3a is not applicable in either case. It applies only when the flagstick has been removed with the player's authority or prior knowledge by someone in the player's match or group."

The wind actually broke the flagstick, the bottom of the flag snapped off and a piece had to be extracted from the hole to enable us to replace the flag after the rest of us putted

 

[Colin L]

So, there was a broken piece on the ground, separated from the rest which was still in the hole, which the confirms the broken bit is an OA with no penalty for hitting it . The ball must also have hit the remainder of the flagstick as it went into the hole, but that is all right since the stroke was made from off the green.