its not harder off the short course at mine thats for sure:rofl:
Bring back the old 3/4 difference in handicaps!
- Thread starter chimpo1
- Start date
its not harder off the short course at mine thats for sure:rofl:
Old Skier
Tour Winner
And there was me thinking Scotland were part of the CONGU set up.
stevek1969
Money List Winner
Its just the way Winter League is run all the teams agreed to stay the same at the AGM
Old Skier
Tour Winner
I assumed that as the clubs were affiliated they are bound by the same rules (which it appears some clubs seem to ignore) and wouldn't want to risk their affiliation.
Crow
Crow Person
Even if we're not playing a measured course?
If we take this to extremes, always a good way to look at an argument I think, and the course is shortened to 1 inch on each hole, then handicapping is irrelevant as everybody will go round in 18 strokes.
As I say, an extreme argument but shows the flaws of trying to stick to CONGU recommendations on courses below the permissible tolerance on measured distance.
If you still insist then the only thing I can suggest is that you tell on us.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
Maybe we should just resurrect the same old threads at this time of year, every year...
It's nothing to do with handicap allowances - it's everything to do with the effect that course shortening can have on a particular membership section.
If I'm unable to reach 16 greens in par regulation but am suddenly able to get to all but 4 from the winter teeing arrangements then I will have an edge over a player who is simply playing a few clubs less into the greens.
Whether the reduction is from the tee, or temp greens, will also impact the effect on the parties.
Ultimately this is the fundamental reason why someone who is handicapped on 7000yd tees may be a bandit on a 6000yd course event - if it's a Q event he will then be stuffed returning to the 7200.
75/90/100 isn't the issue.
It's nothing to do with handicap allowances - it's everything to do with the effect that course shortening can have on a particular membership section.
If I'm unable to reach 16 greens in par regulation but am suddenly able to get to all but 4 from the winter teeing arrangements then I will have an edge over a player who is simply playing a few clubs less into the greens.
Whether the reduction is from the tee, or temp greens, will also impact the effect on the parties.
Ultimately this is the fundamental reason why someone who is handicapped on 7000yd tees may be a bandit on a 6000yd course event - if it's a Q event he will then be stuffed returning to the 7200.
75/90/100 isn't the issue.
chrisd
Major Champion
I guess that sums it up pretty well, but ultimately is more ammunition for the anti 90% 'ers. I played a 4bbb winter league match with MashleyR7 yesterday and we both got shots off the 8 H/c player, his partner was a VERY useful 16 h/c and certainly the difference of the tee positions from the summer ones gave him the a great advantage as it nullified our extra length which would be part of the reason why we have lower handicaps than him
If I hadn't gross parr'd the back 9 (Mashley chucking in the odd birdie too) we wouldn't have won!!
Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
A player of your handicap should generally beat an 18 handicap opponent.
What was your score in relation to par when you lost ?
Perhaps it is you who is not being 'competitive.'
do you play off the same course in winter as summer or is the winter course shorter?
louise_a
Money List Winner
While I get your point about being able to reach more greens, the ones taking less club ought to be able to get a lot closer to the hole, so that while your par count may increase, surely their birdie count would too.
Junior
Tour Winner
I haven't really noticed much difference in Summer between 90% and three quarters difference.
We have a really great Winter tee program that is putting large artificial tee's on a lot of holes. It works really well and the par 4's and par 5's only play a fraction shorter than their summer yardage.....maybe 20 yards or so. The only issue handicap wise is that the par 3 winter tee's are quite a way behind the normal tee's. So , what were 140 > 160 yard par 3's are now 170>190 and often into the wind. Its great in that it protects the greens in Winter from lots of short irons, but they are all fairly high si, so, a difficult par , but a straight forward 2 point bogey.
We have a really great Winter tee program that is putting large artificial tee's on a lot of holes. It works really well and the par 4's and par 5's only play a fraction shorter than their summer yardage.....maybe 20 yards or so. The only issue handicap wise is that the par 3 winter tee's are quite a way behind the normal tee's. So , what were 140 > 160 yard par 3's are now 170>190 and often into the wind. Its great in that it protects the greens in Winter from lots of short irons, but they are all fairly high si, so, a difficult par , but a straight forward 2 point bogey.
duncan mackie
Money List Winner
Absolutely Louise. My point is that whilst in the bigger picture you always have the option to play different courses (opens whatever) for the majority of active competitive golfers you get dialed in to you home course and competition tees with normal conditions.
When these change it can have a small impact on some, or be a complete game changer. Whilst the probability of birdie will increase for the lower player many will actually hit a lesser club from the tee and have a similar approach - hole design can even force this at times! But the guy (generally a senior) who simply can't hit into a green one day but at 25yds shorter can get there (and probably stay there with the softer conditions too) is delighted, and dangerous.
Playing a lot of senior matches it's noticeable that those handicapped to short courses simply can't compete when on much longer ones - the same would be true for me nowadays if I was to head out on a 7400 in Autumn (probably mid summer to...) and even the likely 5 shots SSS advantage wouldn't be enough to compensate me.
The ebb and flow of spring/summer/winter conditions tend to have compensating elements (more roll but more rough, holding greens becomes tougher, fairways run out etc etc. Shortened courses in winter are more of a one way ticket for some.
It should be recognised that this can also apply to quite low handicappers too - those that are right on their margin for approach shots suddenly falling into comfort zones everywhere - but these are less common.
As I understand it it's also less common for ladies to have a wholesale shortening of their course via tee boxes (basically because most are already set out on the furthest forward ones!) - if they were to magically move forwards 30 yds overnight I suspect you would also see some players scoring remarkably well.
agree with This completely. The ladies at ours are playing from their normal tee's with one exception the 17th is a par 3 for us, same tee its still a par 4 for ladies. So playing the normal course
the winter course for us is the ladies course almost 1000 yards shorter, than the one we have our handicaps against.
most of the hazards off the tee are out of play, 5 holes most can't reach in two in summer are now in range and are shot holes. all the par 3's are less than 150 , two of these prev being 200 yards + and 180 into the wind. both low SI holes
Evesdad
Tour Winner
Think about the guys we are playing next if you think you've got it bad. We have the club champion playing off 2, I'm off 25 and partner off 27. That's 21 and 22 shots! His partner is off 8 I think so he'll only have 5!
hovis
Tour Winner
this is what i find frustrating about comps. with them handicaps you only have to have a half decent day and the other team might as well have not turned up.
my friend who plays off scratch picked his ball up from the middle of the fairway after his opponent hit his second within an inch. when the lad said "why are you picking up' my friend said " you have 2 shots on this hole. i needed a hole in one to half the hole"
mikejohnchapman
Challenge Tour Pro
It's sad really but we are struggling to have a winter league this year as many of the better players are reluctant to enter. The reason always given is it's a waste of time when you have to give so many shots. Whether true or not it appears people are already voting with their feet.
Old Skier
Tour Winner
Is it a problem with having two divisions.
Crow
Crow Person
Out of curiosity I just had a look back for the Winter League winners over the last 8 or 10 years at our club.
It's been won by a range of handicaps, most frequently in the 10 to 20 bracket which is probably explained by the fact that this handicap range makes up the great majority of the entry.
There were no winners made up of two single figure players that I could see but some with a single figure and a 10 to 20 handicapper.
On that unscientific basis the handicapping seems to work as well as could be expected.
It's been won by a range of handicaps, most frequently in the 10 to 20 bracket which is probably explained by the fact that this handicap range makes up the great majority of the entry.
There were no winners made up of two single figure players that I could see but some with a single figure and a 10 to 20 handicapper.
On that unscientific basis the handicapping seems to work as well as could be expected.
mikejohnchapman
Challenge Tour Pro
No - mini leagues to start then k/o for top 8.
Most of the lower handicap playerss never get out of the mini leagues.
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chimpo1
Assistant Pro
Our winter course is much shorter as we use winter tees, full greens though. We only played 16 and I was 3 over gross. I did have a bad start but giving a shot away on a hole that measured 128yards is a tough one for me.
