Brexit Two Months On

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Just an off the cuff thought. What would telling Joe Public what the overall plan is achieve? And would telling political opponents just see them use it to their own political ends, e.g. telling Sturgeon would no doubt see it used to stoke the fires of independence? And why tell Joe Public half a plan, or just the framework?

I would prefer it put together in secret until it has to go before parliament for the very reasons people have expressed previously.

I'm not talking about our negotiating stance and objectives - I am simply talking about the steps government will go through to reach the negotiating stance and end March when Art50 is triggered - and identify who will be invited to contribute at each step along the way to that point.

It would show us all - and specifically it would show the Scottish government and members of the SNP who whinge about lack of Scottish Government and Civil Service input, just where that input is happening. Doing so would burst their balloon of indignation and complaint.

 

[Foxholer]

The vote went the way it did but it was a simple Yes/No question. The reality is clearly not going to be so simple. What I don't think anyone voted for was for the future of the country, decisions that will affect every one of us, our children and our children's children to be made in secret by a small number of Tory MP's and then to be implemented come what may, without recourse to the people via either a general election of another referendum. I don't recall the second option on the June 23rd ballot paper being "Leave the European Union at all cost". Of course that probably isn't what is being planned/negotiated but I do feel a bit of transparency wouldn't go amiss. Works both ways too, as I'm sure many ardent Brexiters are worried they will get a watered down version of what they wanted.

Given the expectation that Parliament will get a say on the actual deal, if perhaps not on over-riding the referendum result (that would be a vile corruption of parliamentary power imo!) then it's up to the May to organise, cajole, threaten (and perhaps 'buy'!) Cabinet and then her MPs to get approval! Of course, an effective opposition would be challenging most of the decisions and presenting their alternatives, but a) I don't believe HM Opposition is actually effective - being well into the process of self-destruction! b) There are quite a few Labour MPs who supported Brexit - though I believe far fewer than Conservative ones that supported Remain and c) The consequences of not approving some sort of deal means that the result is 'no deal' 2 years after Article 50 is triggered - which would be a far worse result!!

And there is no doubt in my mind that Article 50 will be triggered! This interview (especially the 1st 40 secs) sums up my view, the rest showing how much 'openness' there actually is - though I do wish they would refrain from talking about negotiations a if it's a game of Poker!

 

[SocketRocket]

So in your world Scotland's 54 MP's and the Scottish Government would have no say whatsoever in Brexit discussions.
That is not quite in the spirit of Better Together.

Can you supply us with some evidence that they have no say whatsoever?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Given the expectation that Parliament will get a say on the actual deal, if perhaps not on over-riding the referendum result (that would be a vile corruption of parliamentary power imo!) then it's up to the May to organise, cajole, threaten (and perhaps 'buy'!) Cabinet and then her MPs to get approval! Of course, an effective opposition would be challenging most of the decisions and presenting their alternatives, but a) I don't believe HM Opposition is actually effective - being well into the process of self-destruction! b) There are quite a few Labour MPs who supported Brexit - though I believe far fewer than Conservative ones that supported Remain and c) The consequences of not approving some sort of deal means that the result is 'no deal' 2 years after Article 50 is triggered - which would be a far worse result!!

And there is no doubt in my mind that Article 50 will be triggered! This interview (especially the 1st 40 secs) sums up my view, the rest showing how much 'openness' there actually is - though I do wish they would refrain from talking about negotiations a if it's a game of Poker!

Yes - this is irritating - it's NOT a bleedin' game - it's the future of our country.

 

[SocketRocket]

I'm not talking about our negotiating stance and objectives - I am simply talking about the steps government will go through to reach the negotiating stance and end March when Art50 is triggered - and identify who will be invited to contribute at each step along the way to that point.

It would show us all - and specifically it would show the Scottish government and members of the SNP who whinge about lack of Scottish Government and Civil Service input, just where that input is happening. Doing so would burst their balloon of indignation and complaint.

Does anything in government policy ever work that way? I think it is extremely naive and unrealistic to expect to be informed every step of the way on what work is being prepared for discussion.

In the run up to the referendum I suggested the Government and especially Cameron was wrong to not offer a strategy for leaving the EU so that we had an opportunity to vote on the plan to stay or leave. I had a lot of criticism for this view from the Remainers saying that the Government didn't need to have a plan for a situation they didn't want to happen. Now we get nothing but "Whats the plan, whats the plan" I also get the impression that rather than face up to the reality of the UK leaving the EU many prefer to stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'La la la la la'

 

[SocketRocket]

Yes - this is irritating - it's NOT a bleedin' game - it's the future of our country.

What a revelation, we were not aware of that and were looking forward to playing games with the countries future. Thanks for pointing it out to us.

 

[Hobbit]

So in your world Scotland's 54 MP's and the Scottish Government would have no say whatsoever in Brexit discussions.
That is not quite in the spirit of Better Together.

In the REAL world, membership of the EU and of foreign policy doesn't fall under the remit of the devolved powers. Who's pulling away from who? Tough, suck it up.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Does anything in government policy ever work that way? I think it is extremely naive and unrealistic to expect to be informed every step of the way on what work is being prepared for discussion.

In the run up to the referendum I suggested the Government and especially Cameron was wrong to not offer a strategy for leaving the EU so that we had an opportunity to vote on the plan to stay or leave. I had a lot of criticism for this view from the Remainers saying that the Government didn't need to have a plan for a situation they didn't want to happen. Now we get nothing but "Whats the plan, whats the plan" I also get the impression that rather than face up to the reality of the UK leaving the EU many prefer to stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'La la la la la'

You often complain that you are banging your head against a wall with me - but I feel the same on this with you. I will repeat - I am not asking for the detail of the negotiating stance we will adopt on triggering Art50 and March 2017. But there will be steps to reach there:

> Brexit Ministers Appointed - Status 100% complete
> Core Government Brexit Team (CBT) Appointed - Status 100% complete
> Brexit Negotiating Stance and Negotiating Plan (NSNP) teams established - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Brexit Team have an initial draft NSNP - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Draft NSNP signed off by Cabinet and PM - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Devolved governments and Civil Service provided with NSNP for their review - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Top Level Feedback on NSNP from Devolved governments and Civil Service provided to CBT - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Feedback review meetings between CBT and Devolved Govs Ministers scheduled - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Feedback review meeting : CBT and Scottish Gov Ministers (Nicola Sturgeon and Mike Russell) - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Scottish Civil Service Review and Negotiations with Westminster Civil Service - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?

...and so on and so forth

This sort of stuff. Nothing to do with the actual stance.

And as mentioned elsewhere - this says we have a resourced plan that can be tracked and reported against. Yes -0 it might show slippage. But that's a fact of life - and best we know where there are issues reaching any milestone.#

This MUST exist - government departments and 'agencies' are good at creating plans - if not so good at sticking to them. I have done a lot of work with the DWP, HMRC, Cabinet Office, BBC in my time.

 

[Foxholer]

So in your world Scotland's 54 MP's and the Scottish Government would have no say whatsoever in Brexit discussions.
That is not quite in the spirit of Better Together.

Brexit discussions are the responsibility of HM Government! As Scotland's 54 MPs are not part of Government, they should/will be formally informed at the same time as other opposition parties! There may, of course, be some informal discussions, just like what happens with any other parliamentary issue!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

In the REAL world, membership of the EU and of foreign policy doesn't fall under the remit of the devolved powers. Who's pulling away from who? Tough, suck it up.

But you must recall (and those who voted YES in IndyRef1 will not forget) that BT and the UK Gov stated that the only way to guarantee membership of the EU for Scotland was staying in the UK, and they were effusive in stating that Scotland is, and would continue to be, a valued and equal partner in the UK.

The Scottish Secretary is part of the UK Government. Though #1 representative of equal partner Scotland, Mundell is not on the Brexit core team when Angela Leadsom is. I am sure that looks good to many north of the border.

 

[Deleted member 1418]

This MUST exist - government departments and 'agencies' are good at creating plans - if not so good at sticking to them. I have done a lot of work with the DWP, HMRC, Cabinet Office, BBC in my time.

Given your experience of working with Government Departments and therefore I assume knowledge of how policy is formulated and as such internal plans for delivering projects or developing/implementing policy, how many were shared publically?

 

[delc]

Does anything in government policy ever work that way? I think it is extremely naive and unrealistic to expect to be informed every step of the way on what work is being prepared for discussion.

In the run up to the referendum I suggested the Government and especially Cameron was wrong to not offer a strategy for leaving the EU so that we had an opportunity to vote on the plan to stay or leave. I had a lot of criticism for this view from the Remainers saying that the Government didn't need to have a plan for a situation they didn't want to happen. Now we get nothing but "Whats the plan, whats the plan" I also get the impression that rather than face up to the reality of the UK leaving the EU many prefer to stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'La la la la la'

My distinct impression was the Leave compaign didn't expect to win, just get a high enough percentage of the vote to fire a warning shot across the bows of the EU. Certainly Boris Johnson looked a bit shocked and worried when he was told that his side had won!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Can you supply us with some evidence that they have no say whatsoever?

Please read the post that I have replied to.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

In the REAL world, membership of the EU and of foreign policy doesn't fall under the remit of the devolved powers. Who's pulling away from who? Tough, suck it up.

Blimey you must have worked hard on that reply [and nearly got away with it.]:lol:

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Given your experience of working with Government Departments and therefore I assume knowledge of how policy is formulated and as such internal plans for delivering projects or developing/implementing policy, how many were shared publically?

You are quite right - but the plans I see include dependencies coming in from the internal departmental activities I do not see the detail of. I do however often have visibility of the top level departmental timeline(s) so we can understand and assess risk around the dependencies.

Besides - this is not an internal government department project delivering to a government department. This is a department delivering to the country as a whole.

Besides I do not see any issue with making public the top-level timeline - especially if doing so means that whinging by such as the SNP over their lack of involvement can be silenced as we can all SEE where the Scottish Government and Scottish Civil Service will be involved.

The Scottish electorate have expectations set by BT and the Westminster government of the level of involvement a Scottish Government would have in major decisions such as Brexit. It is that constituency who will continue to complain and if not already in the YES camp - will drift towards it.

 

[SocketRocket]

Please read the post that I have replied to.

As all of your posts are clueless witterings and trolling, its a bit difficult to understand how any of it is relevant.

 

[SocketRocket]

You often complain that you are banging your head against a wall with me - but I feel the same on this with you. I will repeat - I am not asking for the detail of the negotiating stance we will adopt on triggering Art50 and March 2017. But there will be steps to reach there:

> Brexit Ministers Appointed - Status 100% complete
> Core Government Brexit Team (CBT) Appointed - Status 100% complete
> Brexit Negotiating Stance and Negotiating Plan (NSNP) teams established - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Brexit Team have an initial draft NSNP - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Draft NSNP signed off by Cabinet and PM - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Devolved governments and Civil Service provided with NSNP for their review - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Top Level Feedback on NSNP from Devolved governments and Civil Service provided to CBT - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Feedback review meetings between CBT and Devolved Govs Ministers scheduled - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Feedback review meeting : CBT and Scottish Gov Ministers (Nicola Sturgeon and Mike Russell) - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Scottish Civil Service Review and Negotiations with Westminster Civil Service - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?

...and so on and so forth

This sort of stuff. Nothing to do with the actual stance.

And as mentioned elsewhere - this says we have a resourced plan that can be tracked and reported against. Yes -0 it might show slippage. But that's a fact of life - and best we know where there are issues reaching any milestone.#

This MUST exist - government departments and 'agencies' are good at creating plans - if not so good at sticking to them. I have done a lot of work with the DWP, HMRC, Cabinet Office, BBC in my time.

Do you honestly believe the Government should put out that type of information to the General Public? Have you ever seen this released with other Government policy and we are not talking about some kind of out sourcing of hardware project here.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Do you honestly believe the Government should put out that type of information to the General Public? Have you ever seen this released with other Government policy and we are not talking about some kind of out sourcing of hardware project here.

Do you not read WHY I suggest it would be useful. This is not just some government policy that can be reversed by the next government. Apart from the fact that we know the end date we know nothing about what is going to happen and who is going to be engaged in discussions and when.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

As all of your posts are clueless witterings and trolling, its a bit difficult to understand how any of it is relevant.

I thank you for these kind words.

 

[Hobbit]

Blimey you must have worked hard on that reply [and nearly got away with it.]:lol:

I suppose I could have put a thesis together but it would have come to the same conclusion. Am I wrong, does Scotland have a seat at the table when discussing foreign policy for the UK, or is that down to the party that is in power in Westminster? You know the answer but just don't like it.