Brexit Two Months On

[delc]

And you are an armchair Socialist so your opinion on her is unlikely to be based on anything of much substance.

No, I voted Conservative and for David Cameron as PM at the last election, and was a Young Conservative many years ago! However I am a One-Nation Conservative and deeply distrust the hard right wing of the Party, who seem to have taken control since the Brexit vote!

 

[Val]

You and I individually have little influence I am sure!

But there are people and organisations which are rightly exerting pressure on shaping the outcome.

And large businesses who make threats like Travis Perkins did today.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I'm not sure I agree with having a vote on the Brexit agreement. What happens if MP's vote against the Brexit agreement? We leave the EU with no deal agreed and end up with WTO rules and tariffs on trade and no other agreements in any area in place. Surely that can't be good for the country and the government would have had to negotiate a shocking deal with the EU for it to be worse than leaving with no deal in place.

Well maybe the government negotiates a deal that they can be sure of getting through a vote.

A Tory government winging a vote as Cameron did with both the Scottish Referendum and the EU Referendum - or daring MPs to vote down a deal many MPs don't like - would not be a great idea. Unless of course May would be happy to exit without a deal.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You should get real and face up to the fact that the UK is leaving the EU, moaning and backbiting is a futile exercise in delusion.

Your comment regarding driving the country over a cliff is also an exaggeration and pathetically negative.

Regarding that article. It points out that Westminster might get a vote on the final deal but what good is that! It will be matter of leaving with whatever the negotiations achieve or leave with nothing. Either way we will be leaving.

You do go on about us who voted to Remain being moaners and backbiters. In fact I suggest that is just your perception - perhaps because you are not so sure of your ground and the benefits of leaving as you would like to portray.

Because I don't hear much moaning or backbiting from us. We are simply asking the same questions and asking about the same risks as we did prior to the vote. In general these concerns have not gone away - in fact some of them are starting to come to pass. That isn't moaning - it's just pointing things out and asking what's going to be done about it - and to be done about the other risks and issues that we were concerned about and that pooh pooh'd and dismissed as Project Fear. Well I am still rather fearful for the future.

 

[JCW]

It will not take place , MP`s will vote it out .....................EYG

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

It will not take place , MP`s will vote it out .....................EYG

Except that the MPs are not getting to vote on triggering Art50. And once that is triggered it would appear that we are out - whatever the result of a vote on the terms of engagement with the EU on leaving. If the MPs vote it down - we are still out - just with no agreement with the EU. Or could we continue to negotiate - can the two year period be extended? If not then May best get a deal together for a vote a good few months before the 2yrs is up - just in case MPs don't like it.

 

[ger147]

Except that the MPs are not getting to vote on triggering Art50. And once that is triggered it would appear that we are out - whatever the result of a vote on the terms of engagement with the EU on leaving. If the MPs vote it down - we are still out - just with no agreement with the EU. Or could we continue to negotiate - can the two year period be extended? If not then May best get a deal together for a vote a good few months before the 2yrs is up - just in case MPs don't like it.

That apparently is not in fact the case. An Article 50 declaration can be withdrawn at any point before a deal is reached and ratified by the EU or the 2 year deadline expires.

 

[JCW]

Except that the MPs are not getting to vote on triggering Art50. And once that is triggered it would appear that we are out - whatever the result of a vote on the terms of engagement with the EU on leaving. If the MPs vote it down - we are still out - just with no agreement with the EU. Or could we continue to negotiate - can the two year period be extended? If not then May best get a deal together for a vote a good few months before the 2yrs is up - just in case MPs don't like it.

We will still be in , watch this space , its starting to hit one in the pocket , I also like to see any future vote on anything be one that it must be clear cut to be law , ie , at least 60 % of the vote for not a close run one like this was , and that was down to lies , sure of it .............EYG

 

[SocketRocket]

We will still be in , watch this space , its starting to hit one in the pocket , I also like to see any future vote on anything be one that it must be clear cut to be law , ie , at least 60 % of the vote for not a close run one like this was , and that was down to lies , sure of it .............EYG

Pure delusion. We are leaving period! EYD

 

[vkurup]

While we all want to 'get on with it', here is another sound bite.. don't know how valid the research is.. http://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-vote-regret-leave-margin-victory-2016-10

Would have been lot easier if the margin of victory/loss was more comprehensive..

 

[SocketRocket]

You do go on about us who voted to Remain being moaners and backbiters. In fact I suggest that is just your perception - perhaps because you are not so sure of your ground and the benefits of leaving as you would like to portray.

Because I don't hear much moaning or backbiting from us. We are simply asking the same questions and asking about the same risks as we did prior to the vote. In general these concerns have not gone away - in fact some of them are starting to come to pass. That isn't moaning - it's just pointing things out and asking what's going to be done about it - and to be done about the other risks and issues that we were concerned about and that pooh pooh'd and dismissed as Project Fear. Well I am still rather fearful for the future.

You have turned it into a pastime!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

That apparently is not in fact the case. An Article 50 declaration can be withdrawn at any point before a deal is reached and ratified by the EU or the 2 year deadline expires.

I had heard discussion of that - and my understanding of why they think this is possible is because there is nothing in Art50 to say that triggering it is a fait accomplis - and that the triggering can't be withdrawn. Because no-one ever thought that a country would ever trigger it.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You have turned it into a pastime!

Sorry - we don't. My only real complaint and concern is that we haven't seen a top-level plan that gets us to end March and I would expect us to have one and for it to be public knowledge.

I am however looking for answers to questions we who voted Remain asked before the vote - and for which we are still not getting any answers - with the standard rejoinder being "stop moaning - we can't reveal our hand" - and that doesn't help anyone.

 

[ger147]

I had heard discussion of that - and my understanding of why they think this is possible is because there is nothing in Art50 to say that triggering it is a fait accomplis - and that the triggering can't be withdrawn. Because no-one ever thought that a country would ever trigger it.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-how-does-article-50-work-2016-7

 

[Hobbit]

Sorry - we don't. My only real complaint and concern is that we haven't seen a top-level plan that gets us to end March and I would expect us to have one and for it to be public knowledge.

I am however looking for answers to questions we who voted Remain asked before the vote - and for which we are still not getting any answers - with the standard rejoinder being "stop moaning - we can't reveal our hand" - and that doesn't help anyone.

Just an off the cuff thought. What would telling Joe Public what the overall plan is achieve? And would telling political opponents just see them use it to their own political ends, e.g. telling Sturgeon would no doubt see it used to stoke the fires of independence? And why tell Joe Public half a plan, or just the framework?

I would prefer it put together in secret until it has to go before parliament for the very reasons people have expressed previously.

 

[Fyldewhite]

Just an off the cuff thought. What would telling Joe Public what the overall plan is achieve? And would telling political opponents just see them use it to their own political ends, e.g. telling Sturgeon would no doubt see it used to stoke the fires of independence? And why tell Joe Public half a plan, or just the framework?

I would prefer it put together in secret until it has to go before parliament for the very reasons people have expressed previously.

The vote went the way it did but it was a simple Yes/No question. The reality is clearly not going to be so simple. What I don't think anyone voted for was for the future of the country, decisions that will affect every one of us, our children and our children's children to be made in secret by a small number of Tory MP's and then to be implemented come what may, without recourse to the people via either a general election of another referendum. I don't recall the second option on the June 23rd ballot paper being "Leave the European Union at all cost". Of course that probably isn't what is being planned/negotiated but I do feel a bit of transparency wouldn't go amiss. Works both ways too, as I'm sure many ardent Brexiters are worried they will get a watered down version of what they wanted.

 

[FairwayDodger]

Just a thought, a hypothetical....

*IF*, over the next couple of years, it becomes clear that leaving the EU is going to be disastrous for the economy, should the government carry on regardless citing the referendum, or should they apply some pragmatism and try to find an alternative?

 

[Hobbit]

The vote went the way it did but it was a simple Yes/No question. The reality is clearly not going to be so simple. What I don't think anyone voted for was for the future of the country, decisions that will affect every one of us, our children and our children's children to be made in secret by a small number of Tory MP's and then to be implemented come what may, without recourse to the people via either a general election of another referendum. I don't recall the second option on the June 23rd ballot paper being "Leave the European Union at all cost". Of course that probably isn't what is being planned/negotiated but I do feel a bit of transparency wouldn't go amiss. Works both ways too, as I'm sure many ardent Brexiters are worried they will get a watered down version of what they wanted.

I voted for the in or out decision. As you say, it didn't all the bells and whistles but that was what should have been getting put before the voters during the campaign so that they could make an informed choice. Does the ballot paper at a General Election have all the manifestos written on it? No, it all part of the canvassing, as it was in the run up to the Brexit vote.

I genuinely don't see why I need to know about all the negotiations. And let's be honest, many people wouldn't understand the detail of the agreement. However, I do feel that the final agreement needs to be put before parliament.

 

[Hobbit]

Just a thought, a hypothetical....

*IF*, over the next couple of years, it becomes clear that leaving the EU is going to be disastrous for the economy, should the government carry on regardless citing the referendum, or should they apply some pragmatism and try to find an alternative?

If you held a gun to your head but thought this might hurt would you still pull the trigger? I'd hope that parliament would use its prerogative.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Just an off the cuff thought. What would telling Joe Public what the overall plan is achieve? And would telling political opponents just see them use it to their own political ends, e.g. telling Sturgeon would no doubt see it used to stoke the fires of independence? And why tell Joe Public half a plan, or just the framework?

I would prefer it put together in secret until it has to go before parliament for the very reasons people have expressed previously.

So in your world Scotland's 54 MP's and the Scottish Government would have no say whatsoever in Brexit discussions.
That is not quite in the spirit of Better Together.