Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Do you have to relive your posts from two years ago, they were wrong then so what's the point of regurgitating them. Im a Leaver and knew exactly what I voted for, just like the vast majority of others, if I threw the same back that Remainers were too stupid to understand the details of remaining on the EU I guess you would object to that statement suggesting I was insulting your intelligence.

But I am afraid that I have not forgotten that you were at the forefront of those telling me how naive I was asking for some visibility of Strategy and Plan; that it was unrealistic to get visibility of that as it would give our negotiating hand away; which I completely got - and get - but just some indication that the government had something would have been nice. It rather seems that, over three years on, what they had was scribbled on the back of a fag packet.

Yes - I have no doubt that you knew exactly what you voted for - but in you saying the vast majority of Leave voters knew what they were voting for was that the same as what you voted for? leave means Leave? Was it what BoJo has brought to the table?; is it what May brought?; is it what Farage would bring? These are all different flavours of Leave.

Is there another flavour that you'd prefer? I know what mine is...but I might not get my preferred...

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Took the first paragraph for no other reason than some will argue differently, and I'd like to get past that.

...

As for Remainer MP's blocking progress; I'm all for keeping the govt honest and subject to parliamentary scrutiny but I disagree with stopping Brexit. The biggest democratic exercise undertaken given to the electorate by Parliament should be respected, even if people don't agree with it. There's some MP's who've campaigned very openly and honestly for both sides of the argument, and I have my utmost respect for those MP's. Those that have lied, been circumspect with the truth and have been disingenuous in what they've done bring discredit to Westminster, and I hope come the next election are shown the door by the electorate.

I am completely with you on all but this, and even on that there are circumstances under which - were I to be asked again - I might vote to Leave because the country has been split by Brexit. The EU was never the most important issue for the majority of the electorate - but Brexit has now made it the one thing that many are very angry about - and I am afraid that that genie is out of the bottle and the country will take a very long time to recover from. If I was confident that the anger would be dissipated and the wound would start to heal - for that reason alone I could vote to Leave. But I fear that even with the UK leaving on the basis of Johnson's deal, the likelihood is that Farage and his crew will continue to rub salt into the wound and that will prevent healing for a long time.

So whilst I find myself leaning towards accepting we must leave - the anger of Farage and his crew, plus the paucity of decent personal values, antics and untrustworthiness of Johnson and the fawning and disingenuousness of his lickspittle cabinet makes that acceptance difficult.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Mine doesn't, but that's not just about brexit, more because of his inaction towards the gnr fiasco.

On Brexit mine most certainly doesn't - step forward Jeremy Hunt...

The next GE will be interesting...not so many GEs ago the LibDems came quite close - polling 40% of the vote.

 

[Hobbit]

I am completely with you on all but this, and even on that there are circumstances under which - were I to be asked again - I might vote to Leave because the country has been split by Brexit. The EU was never the most important issue for the majority of the electorate - but Brexit has now made it the one thing that many are very angry about - and I am afraid that that genie is out of the bottle and the country will take a very long time to recover from. If I was confident that the anger would be dissipated and the wound would start to heal - for that reason alone I could vote to Leave. But I fear that even with the UK leaving on the basis of Johnson's deal, the likelihood is that Farage and his crew will continue to rub salt into the wound and that will prevent healing for a long time.

So whilst I find myself leaning towards accepting we must leave - the anger of Farage and his crew, plus the paucity of decent personal values, antics and untrustworthiness of Johnson and the fawning and disingenuousness of his lickspittle cabinet makes that acceptance difficult.

I think you really need to address your own anger and language too. Whilst I agree that the lack of personal values amongst some politicians is so obvious, emotive language like lickspittle cabinet paints an extreme picture. And it is that language when seen by the opposing camp that so infuriates and angers people.

You've talked about division and anger many times, and the hope that society came come together but you then perpetuate it yourself. Where is the conciliation in your own actions? When do you look for the middle ground? You/we won't change people's minds by attacking them and their beliefs. You're going about it in exactly the diametrically opposite way to achieve your goals - engage and debate, don't attack.

 

[Swinglowandslow]

Nick Ferrari on LBC often uses the 'divorce' analogy when arguing against circumstances changing supporting a case for a confirmatory referendum.

His analogy has it that a couple decides to divorce - and that's it. They divorce. End of. They go their own ways.

But that is not it. A couple decide to divorce and their solicitors work with the couple to agree a divorce settlement, and once that is agreed and the couple review the agreement the couple then proceed with their divorce. Or they don't. Because it is quite possible that during the settlement negotiations the couple realise the error or their ways - perhaps through pleadings from any children, or when they look at the impact of their separating on themselves; their family; their friends - and in looking at all of that, they decide that it's just not worth it - perhaps that the reasons for initiating the divorce were mistaken or petty - whatever. In any case. A couple who decide to divorce, and initiate divorce proceedings, are not required to go through with it. Circumstances might change; they might change their minds; and they might just decide to call it off and stay together.

Ferrari's analogy just doesn't work.

I don't think you are right on that( the part in the bold).
A couple divorce. Then the property settlement etc starts, the horse trading begins. It may be that upon agreeing a divorce, a couple also agree a division of property etc, but then the solicitors get to work and it may all change.
There have been some cases, I'm sure, where the one with the property, money etc, has fought the granting of a divorce in order to avoid the other
Spouse being entitled to some/majority/all of the assets being subsequently awarded.
If my take on this is not correct, no doubt someone legally qualified will clarify.

 

[Slime]

What exactly do you mean then because you clearly are blaming “remainers” for the position we are in right now - you are being generic and lumping everyone together

SILH does it towards “leavers” and gets rightly critisized for it

You are no better than the stuff he trots out - you are no doubt quite happy to pull him up on stuff when he is generic.

So maybe it’s best if you post exactly what you mean as opposed to lumping all remainers in together.

If you want to read it as 'all remainers', then crack on, although that's not what I said.
Obviously it was a reference to the remainers in Parliament because, even someone as stupid as me would realise, they are the ones keeping this mess going by preventing us from leaving the EU. They are just hell bent on causing as much chaos as possible in the hope that an exit never happens.
I totally get that ordinary voters only had one say in the event, give me some credit.

 

[IanM]

Brexit has NOT caused division, the country was always significantly Euro-sceptic. The only change I've observed since 2016, is the EU leaders are now more honest and open over their(Federal) intentions.

All you need to know about this process comes from the Lib Dem Leader who says a 2nd Vote is the only democratic option, but won't accept the outcome, unless it is to Remain.

There you have it in a nutshell.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

I think you really need to address your own anger and language too. Whilst I agree that the lack of personal values amongst some politicians is so obvious, emotive language like lickspittle cabinet paints an extreme picture. And it is that language when seen by the opposing camp that so infuriates and angers people.

You've talked about division and anger many times, and the hope that society came come together but you then perpetuate it yourself. Where is the conciliation in your own actions? When do you look for the middle ground? You/we won't change people's minds by attacking them and their beliefs. You're going about it in exactly the diametrically opposite way to achieve your goals - engage and debate, don't attack.

Sorry - but in my opinion they are a lickspittle cabinet...it is for me an appropriate adjective to use...

And as far as looking for the middle ground - what did I post. I'll repeat it.

So whilst I find myself leaning towards accepting we must leave - the anger of Farage and his crew, plus the paucity of decent personal values, antics and untrustworthiness of Johnson and the fawning and disingenuousness of his lickspittle cabinet makes that acceptance difficult.

Making it difficult does stop it happening.

 

[Hobbit]

Sorry - but in my opinion they are a lickspittle cabinet...it is for me the appropriate word to use...

And as far as looking for the middle ground - what did I post. I'll repeat it.

So whilst I find myself leaning towards accepting we must leave - the anger of Farage and his crew, plus the paucity of decent personal values, antics and untrustworthiness of Johnson and the fawning and disingenuousness of his lickspittle cabinet makes that acceptance difficult.

Making it difficult does stop it happening.

But that sort of language just makes you look like them. As I've said before, uncomfortably, you end up looking like a Remain version of Farage or Johnson.

But here's a question for you. Name all of Johnson's Cabinet without looking them up. Explain their individual political leanings and their track record. And if you can't answer those questions, how can you call the Cabinet lickspittle?

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

But that sort of language just makes you look like them. As I've said before, uncomfortably, you end up looking like a Remain version of Farage or Johnson.

But here's a question for you. Name all of Johnson's Cabinet without looking them up. Explain their individual political leanings and their track record. And if you can't answer those questions, how can you call the Cabinet lickspittle?

I cannot name all of the Cabinet off the top of my head, however looking at it from the other direction, I am not hearing any member of cabinet speaking out in any way challenging what is coming from the Prime Minister and the most senior members of the government - such as Raab, Patel, Javid, Leadsom, Rees-Mogg, Cleverley, Villiers, Barclay and Gove.

I have no time for the Brexit views of any of them - but I could still vote to Leave in a confirmatory referendum....

 

[Foxholer]

...
Boris' amazing deal , which is the exact deal we were offered 3 years ago, is somehow worse than Mays deal...

1. It's not the same deal - by a long shot
2. Then you go and conrtradict yourself!

But he's shown, to me, that he's a buffoon many times!

 

[Hobbit]

I cannot name all of the Cabinet off the top of my head, however looking at it from the other direction, I am not hearing any member of cabinet speaking out in any way challenging what is coming from the Prime Minister and the most senior members of the government - such as Raab, Patel, Javid, Leadsom, Rees-Mogg, Cleverley, Villiers, Barclay and Gove.

I have no time for the Brexit views of any of them - but I could still vote to Leave in a confirmatory referendum....

So you know all the Cabinet is lickspittle without knowing who they are, what their leanings are, what their track record is and whether or not they are yes men/women.

You are no better than Farage in spreading your own political rubbish. You don't know whether its truth or not but you're willing to call people purely because they might be that way inclined. How on earth do you look at yourself in the mirror?

And by the way, if you look up the track record of various Cabinet members, as I have just done, you will find that several of them aren't Leavers and have cautioned against things like suspending parliament/proroguing parliament. And makes you look a little.... shallow in your arguments?

 

[Foxholer]

I guess it's easier than reminding your self that the Tories threw their majority in a mistaken belief they'd sweep up the brexit vote and storm to a huge majority in an Ill thought out snap election.
Or that it was the Tory rebels who voted again thier own party to stop the first brexit vote .
But yeah it's all remain voters fault
😂😂😂

That wasn't the reason for the 'snap election'.

It did, however, backfire rather badly!

 

[robinthehood]

That wasn't the reason for the 'snap election'.

It did, however, backfire rather badly!

? It's exactly why she called it.
She thought she could strengthen her majority ...

 

[Foxholer]

Not noticed that. Are you saying there areMPs that represent their constituents views.

Jeremiah 5:21
Matthew 9 26-27

 

[Foxholer]

...
She thought she could strengthen her majority ...

Not quite! The REAL reason was that she could see she didn't have the numbers to get Leave legislation through! She needed to increase her majority!

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

But that sort of language just makes you look like them. As I've said before, uncomfortably, you end up looking like a Remain version of Farage or Johnson.

But here's a question for you. Name all of Johnson's Cabinet without looking them up. Explain their individual political leanings and their track record. And if you can't answer those questions, how can you call the Cabinet lickspittle?

OK - on reflection I am perhaps a bit OTT and harsh on that - so I'll call them all loyal, and committed to the cause.

 

[robinthehood]

Not quite! The REAL reason was that she could see she didn't have the numbers to get Leave legislation through! She needed to increase her majority!

Riiiiiight....oof

 

[woody69]

1. It's not the same deal - by a long shot
2. Then you go and conrtradict yourself!

But he's shown, to me, that he's a buffoon many times!

I can't speak for pauljames, but he may well be implying the deal negotiated by Boris is effectively the same deal that was offered to us by the EU, which May rejected due to the annexing of NI and she progressed with the backstop for the whole of the UK.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

BoJo in the House is telling us that if his Deal is voted down or amended then he's pulling it and GE here way come. Not sure how he'll engineer that but I'm sure he has a Cumming Plan.