Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Beezerk]

Talking to the guy who irwnted me apartment off in sydney through Airbnb.
Word on the street is when we leave. There will be free movement between the UK and Oz re work. It is something the Aussies hope will happen. My lad and others will do cartwheels should that happen. Seems it's not all doom.and gloom.

Interesting, my mate who lives and works in Melbourne says the whole process of getting a work Visa is a disgrace and isn't helping the economy in Australia. I know I had to jump through lots of hoops and tell them just about my whole life story (I didn't tell them about the tee shot at Tyneside which went 5 feet 🤣) and that was just for a temporary 3 month work visa.

 

[robinthehood]

Talking to the guy who irwnted me apartment off in sydney through Airbnb.
Word on the street is when we leave. There will be free movement between the UK and Oz re work. It is something the Aussies hope will happen. My lad and others will do cartwheels should that happen. Seems it's not all doom.and gloom.

So....free movement from EU bad...
Free movement from other country good.
I'm lost at what the difference is...

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Scary thought polls indicate that at least 50% of UK voters will support right wing/ far right wing policies. [Tory/Brexit/UKIP]
Next Tory party slogan will probably be..…...Britain First.

...or maybe just MEGA - as some might suggest this whole thing has some weird populist notional of English Greatness and Nationalism stamped all over it - as Diad Johnson goes for a GE win, a Deal never being anything he was very much interested in - all he has cared for all along is becoming PM whatever the cost to the UK. And in that he has set out the groundwork for a No Deal Exit, with his current proposal being part of that plan - knowingly never acceptable by the EU - and then being able to blame the EU as #1 responsible and Remoaners as #2 responsible for the damage that he has to deal with once he is in place for 5yrs following a GE.

I don't think I can actually feel angry about this any more - I just find it all very sad and depressing that we are letting (have let) this guy get away with this.

I add the one upside of this for me is that Farage and his crew will hopefully be squashed by the party that has become the quasi-BP - i.e. the Tories.

 

[Beezerk]

So....free movement from EU bad...
Free movement from other country good.
I'm lost at what the difference is...

I dont think you can get a dinghy from Oz to the UK and claim benefits 🤔

 

[robinthehood]

I dont think you can get a dinghy from Oz to the UK and claim benefits 🤔

Youre confusing illegal immigrants with legal.....

 

[jp5]

Er, the May deal was rejected by Parliament 3 times! And MPs on both sides of the House, from all Parties, voted against it!!

If you look at the movement on that deal it was pretty big. A lot of moderates came round to it - went from being defeated by > 200 votes to ~60. If the ERG had got on board and a couple dozen of the Labour sensibles then we'd be over the line and able to move on.

There's never going to be a solution at the extremes - no deal or revoke - it's going to take compromise from everyone. The result is everyone being slightly unhappy, but that's the least worst situation.

 

[harpo_72]

It was patently obvious that Ireland would be the key point.

This whole let the UK decide was actually untrue .. the choices you have are non existent just accept it, you think you have a choice but in reality you don't.

The other point which is glossed over, was May instigated article 50 and called an election to get a majority to leave the EU.
All of those people who voted leave did not support her, they failed to show up at the poles to give her a fighting majority and a Tory exit plan for the EU.
So to conclude, forget the referendum numbers look at the GE numbers and that tells you the divide.

Was May's deal good or bad who knows, because this isn't about you or I, we are fed the BS, half truths and down right lies. This is about the those people who are getting a something from it .. Boris gets to call himself prime minister, Mogg gets to make his fortune even larger, big business opts out of fair pay, the USA rapes us on a trade deal like they did on the liberty ships, environmental concerns will be binned and we will go back to being the dirty old man of Europe etc ...

Cynical maybe .. but ask your self what have you been directly disadvantaged by with our EU membership and then list out how you will benefit with us leaving .. I think Hobbit mentioned the health care side (I am not taking sides on this I think it's appalling that health care be used in a manner like this).
The direct affects on you will be zero, you do not even know they are happening .. but if your going to make big bucks then whoopee and do a Farage and move to Europe having made your bundle.

 

[Taz]

Donald Tusk

@eucopresident
· 21m
.@BorisJohnson, what’s at stake is not winning some stupid blame game. At stake is the future of Europe and the UK as well as the security and interests of our people. You don’t want a deal, you don’t want an extension, you don’t want to revoke, quo vadis?

 

[drdel]

Donald Tusk

@eucopresident
· 21m
.@BorisJohnson, what’s at stake is not winning some stupid blame game. At stake is the future of Europe and the UK as well as the security and interests of our people. You don’t want a deal, you don’t want an extension, you don’t want to revoke, quo vadis?

Indeed he and others have been trying to make sure the only 'way we march' is the EU way and forget there was a vote in the UK for a different path.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I dont think you can get a dinghy from Oz to the UK and claim benefits 🤔

Are you not talking about illegal immigrants from outside the EU there ? Unless the Middle East or North Africa have joined the EU

That won’t change being in the EU or not

So with this “deal” that Tashy has broken to the UK we can now have Aussies coming to the UK and claim benefits

 

[ColchesterFC]

So with this “deal” that Tashy has broken to the UK we can now have Aussies coming to the UK and claim benefits

Two things from Tashy's post.....

1) It's "word on the street", so nothing more than rumours
2) "Free movement for work" - no mention of benefits

I thought that the government position has always been for a points based system to allow in those that are required at a particular time by giving their profession/occupation a greater weighting. Seems like an eminently more sensible idea than allowing any one of 500+ million people to come here just because they want to and because of an accident of birth they are allowed to.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Two things from Tashy's post.....

1) It's "word on the street", so nothing more than rumours
2) "Free movement for work" - no mention of benefits

I thought that the government position has always been for a points based system to allow in those that are required at a particular time by giving their profession/occupation a greater weighting. Seems like an eminently more sensible idea than allowing any one of 500+ million people to come here just because they want to and because of an accident of birth they are allowed to.

So not much different to people from Aus coming to work here now then ?

Hopefully we will get enough from Aus or US to fill the gaps of the EU workers

 

[Hacker Khan]

Jeez, are we now scenario planning on what Tashy's AirBnB host has apparently heard 'on the street' in Australia? Who next, Johnny the shoeshine guy from Police Squad?

 

[Hacker Khan]

It was patently obvious that Ireland would be the key point.

This whole let the UK decide was actually untrue .. the choices you have are non existent just accept it, you think you have a choice but in reality you don't.

The other point which is glossed over, was May instigated article 50 and called an election to get a majority to leave the EU.
All of those people who voted leave did not support her, they failed to show up at the poles to give her a fighting majority and a Tory exit plan for the EU.
So to conclude, forget the referendum numbers look at the GE numbers and that tells you the divide.

Was May's deal good or bad who knows, because this isn't about you or I, we are fed the BS, half truths and down right lies. This is about the those people who are getting a something from it .. Boris gets to call himself prime minister, Mogg gets to make his fortune even larger, big business opts out of fair pay, the USA rapes us on a trade deal like they did on the liberty ships, environmental concerns will be binned and we will go back to being the dirty old man of Europe etc ...

Cynical maybe .. but ask your self what have you been directly disadvantaged by with our EU membership and then list out how you will benefit with us leaving .. I think Hobbit mentioned the health care side (I am not taking sides on this I think it's appalling that health care be used in a manner like this).
The direct affects on you will be zero, you do not even know they are happening .. but if your going to make big bucks then whoopee and do a Farage and move to Europe having made your bundle.

Follow the money, always follow the money

 

[USER1999]

So not much different to people from Aus coming to work here now then ?

Hopefully we will get enough from Aus or US to fill the gaps of the EU workers

But after a few years, when the EU populace wakes up to the fact that we are not going to eat them, they can apply, and work in the UK just the same as any one else. There is zero reason why someone from the EU cannot work here.

 

[GB72]

It was patently obvious that Ireland would be the key point.

This whole let the UK decide was actually untrue .. the choices you have are non existent just accept it, you think you have a choice but in reality you don't.

The other point which is glossed over, was May instigated article 50 and called an election to get a majority to leave the EU.
All of those people who voted leave did not support her, they failed to show up at the poles to give her a fighting majority and a Tory exit plan for the EU.
So to conclude, forget the referendum numbers look at the GE numbers and that tells you the divide.

Was May's deal good or bad who knows, because this isn't about you or I, we are fed the BS, half truths and down right lies. This is about the those people who are getting a something from it .. Boris gets to call himself prime minister, Mogg gets to make his fortune even larger, big business opts out of fair pay, the USA rapes us on a trade deal like they did on the liberty ships, environmental concerns will be binned and we will go back to being the dirty old man of Europe etc ...

Cynical maybe .. but ask your self what have you been directly disadvantaged by with our EU membership and then list out how you will benefit with us leaving .. I think Hobbit mentioned the health care side (I am not taking sides on this I think it's appalling that health care be used in a manner like this).
The direct affects on you will be zero, you do not even know they are happening .. but if your going to make big bucks then whoopee and do a Farage and move to Europe having made your bundle.

Have to agree that Ireland was always going to be the key point and this is where I am confused. The only way to pretty much guarantee that we have to go back to a hard border is to have no deal. Yes, the alternatives may not be ideal for one side or another but surely any option is better than walking off a cliff and going back to full border controls.

What we have now is a massive game of chicken. The EU think that we will call another referendum if there is no deal on the table, the UK thinks that the EU will cave as no deal gets closer. Not really a great way for either side to carry out a negotiation.

As it stands, I would just be happy for this to be over. If that tanks the economy then lets at least rip the plaster off and start dealing with it.

 

[drdel]

Have to agree that Ireland was always going to be the key point and this is where I am confused. The only way to pretty much guarantee that we have to go back to a hard border is to have no deal. Yes, the alternatives may not be ideal for one side or another but surely any option is better than walking off a cliff and going back to full border controls.

What we have now is a massive game of chicken. The EU think that we will call another referendum if there is no deal on the table, the UK thinks that the EU will cave as no deal gets closer. Not really a great way for either side to carry out a negotiation.

As it stands, I would just be happy for this to be over. If that tanks the economy then lets at least rip the plaster off and start dealing with it.

I'm pretty much with you on this.

If the Merkel stance is true/adopted and the UK won't throw NI under the bus then a No Deal is on the cards sooner or later.

EU says it doesn't want an NI border but forcing a no deal ensures a border control !!!

So a border happens by default..

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

There is of course the hope that, given the Irish and NI Republicans will know who is to blame for forcing the erection of EU border control in Ireland in the event of No Deal Brexit, the extremists will be less inclined to attack anything the Irish side of the border.

And they will know who to blame - or who they will choose to blame - for that border control and the economic catastrophe that Ireland might experience. And no matter who the UK might point the finger of blame at for the No Deal, I very much doubt that it will be Ireland.

 

[GB72]

There is of course the hope that, given the Irish and NI Republicans will know who is to blame for forcing the erection of EU border control in Ireland in the event of No Deal Brexit, the extremists will be less inclined to attack anything the Irish side of the border.

And they will know who to blame - or who they will choose to blame - for that border control and the economic catastrophe that Ireland might experience. And no matter who the UK might point the finger of blame at for the No Deal, I very much doubt that it will be Ireland.

I did note last week that Veradkar mentioned 5 ways of dealing with the boarder. Cannot remember number 5 but the other 4 were backstop, no Brexit, NI leaves UK or Ireland joins UK. Cannot see any of them happening

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

u

I did note last week that Veradkar mentioned 5 ways of dealing with the boarder. Cannot remember number 5 but the other 4 were backstop, no Brexit, NI leaves UK or Ireland joins UK. Cannot see any of them happening

Unification I believe was #5