Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!
- Thread starter drdel
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Taz
Journeyman Pro
Sky news :
Taz
Journeyman Pro
Robert Peston
@Peston
This feels very big. PM spoke with German Chancellor Angela Merkel at 8am this morning. According to Downing Street source, she told the PM that there will be no Brexit deal with the UK unless Northern Ireland is in the customs union "forever". The ource says she repeated...
"forever" on "multiple occasions". So she is saying there can be no time-limited backstop. And of course it is a wholesale rejection of Johnson's offer to replace the backstop. The source says "France is saying the same thing". The government's conclusion is that EU leaders... have decided to make an example of the UK, to show that Johnson's attempt to bin the painstakingly negotiated Withdrawal Agreement must inevitably lead to a worse deal for the UK. To be clear, at this stage I only have the UK's government's take, but on the face of it the EU... has decided to give the UK a binary choice, between a no-deal Brexit or a Brexit delay that may lead to Brexit being cancelled. Johnson will now go full steam ahead to a no-deal Brexit on 31 October. I would expect him to make a statement about all this later today. It is then... down to MPs to decide whether this is the moment to try and oust him with a vote of no confidence, or whether to trust that the Benn Act gets them the Brexit delay they want. The stakes are very high indeed.
Taz
Journeyman Pro
So there you have it from Merkel herself, the backstop was never about ensuring no hard border, protecting "peace" and the Good Friday Agreement but SIMPLY to annex Northern Ireland into the EU.
chrisd
Major Champion
Hacker Khan
Yurt Dwelling, Yoghurt Knitter
Sky news :
People do know that this number 10 source is Cummings leaking stuff to the press right?
It is playing out much as expected, we offer a deal which we know the EU will not accept as we are effectively now negotiating with ourselves to see what can get through the DUP and ERG, and not what will work for the UK and EU. When the EU point this out Number 10 starts furiously briefing to enrage their core voter base, that it is the fault of the Irish, the EU who want to kill the Good Friday Agreement, take over Norther Ireland etc etc. Expect the usual papers to go all in on this, people get angrier, vote in Bojo for another term, we leave with no deal, his mates make some money and we ignore the fact that if we can't even get a divorce type deal with the EU then what are the chances of us getting a trade deal with them in the next decade or so. Let's hope Trump doesn't decide to kill our economy as well as Turkeys's.
jp5
Q-School Graduate
Scary the number of people, including well renowned journalists, that are willing to accept No.10 propaganda without question.
Fact is May negotiated an acceptable deal to both sides but our own hardliners vetoed it.
Fact is May negotiated an acceptable deal to both sides but our own hardliners vetoed it.
Foxholer
Blackballed
I'm no 'hardliner' (actually voting remain) but, to me, May's 'deal' was not a deal to leave at all! It was a 'deal' to lose all the benefits of EU membership, but to, potentially - therefore almost certainly, be still be controlled by the EU!
It was overwhelmingly rejected by ALL sides when submitted for approval in the Commons!!
drdel
Tour Rookie
It appears those MPs who claimed the 'backstop' was a 'trap' were correct as the EU were never going to accept its demise.
D
Deleted member 1418
Guest
Er, the May deal was rejected by Parliament 3 times! And MPs on both sides of the House, from all Parties, voted against it!!
Taz
Journeyman Pro
The EU won’t agree to a Brexit deal unless NIre remains in the Customs Union. The Commons won’t agree to a Brexit deal if NIre does remain in the Customs Union. So what next? Leavers: “Let the British people decide in an election.†Remoaners: “Let the EU27 leaders decide.â€
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
Since it appears there can't be a deal, we are back to the old no deal, or remain, conundrum. Leave with a deal seems impossible now, and to be fair, it probably always has been.
Taz
Journeyman Pro
Keir Starmer MP, Shadow Brexit Secretary: “This is yet another cynical attempt by Number 10 to sabotage the negotiations." 
Hacker Khan
Yurt Dwelling, Yoghurt Knitter
Who is saying we let the EU leaders decide what we do next? I get that spinning is happening but has anyone said that they want to delegate the decision on what to do next to EU leaders?
Also call me old fashioned but if you want to decide a specific matter then have a referendum on that mater. Which I agree we have done and we are still rather unsuccessfully trying to enact that. Not sure how holding a general election will decide what we do next unless we are just admitting nothing else matters in a GE at all and you must vote purely and only on the parties Brexit position. Which to me sounds daft if we want a properly functioning country in all areas.
Hacker Khan
Yurt Dwelling, Yoghurt Knitter
This may be a last ditch throw of the dice as even Bojo must realise that getting out of the EU with a deal will be more electorally palatable and better for his long term chances of remaining PM that a no deal.
But if reports are to be believed that negotiations have mostly broken down then I fear we will be in for a vast amount of spinning now, from number 10 and the EU. People will believe who ever they want to believe, the actual truth will be complicated and nuanced and will more than likely be lost in a sea of spin, possibly to turn up in some behind the scenes documentary on BBC 2 in 4 years time. And in the mean time the country gets more and more divided, populist leaders on both sides become the norm and we just hope the examples of what happens when you get these types, both from history and from what is happening now in other countries, will never happen to us.
USER1999
Grand Slam Winner
If Merkels comments re NI remaining in the customs union are true, why did she not say this 3 years ago, and have cut out 3 years of pointless negotiating pontificating nonsense?
Beezerk
Money List Winner
To be honest, at the minute I dont think much else matters to a lot of people. You could argue over half the country are feeling disenfranchised right now and want this referendum acting upon, if that means doing it via a GE then so be it.
Mass protest votes on the horizon if a delay is put in place and a GE were to follow.
Doon frae Troon
Ryder Cup Winner
Scary thought polls indicate that at least 50% of UK voters will support right wing/ far right wing policies. [Tory/Brexit/UKIP]
Next Tory party slogan will probably be..…...Britain First.
Tashyboy
Please don’t ask to see my tatts 👍
Talking to the guy who irwnted me apartment off in sydney through Airbnb.
Word on the street is when we leave. There will be free movement between the UK and Oz re work. It is something the Aussies hope will happen. My lad and others will do cartwheels should that happen. Seems it's not all doom.and gloom.
Word on the street is when we leave. There will be free movement between the UK and Oz re work. It is something the Aussies hope will happen. My lad and others will do cartwheels should that happen. Seems it's not all doom.and gloom.
drdel
Tour Rookie
Unfortunately EU history has shown than their negotiation tactics are to stonewall.
The Greeks were promised a loan restructure, agreed with IMF and ECB but when it came down to the wire Juncker and Dragi changed their mind!
They still hope the UK will prevaricate and give up with the help of Parliament.
The Greeks were promised a loan restructure, agreed with IMF and ECB but when it came down to the wire Juncker and Dragi changed their mind!
They still hope the UK will prevaricate and give up with the help of Parliament.
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