Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

48-52 either way is too close to call. Those sorts of numbers can easily be swung in a campaign. The interesting question on this would be out of those polled, how many are entrenched in their view, how many are swing voters?

May be too close to call - but the actual referendum has been called 'decisive'; 'as representing 'the will of the people'.

Plus we hear of 'the largest mandate for anything in British history'; the biggest democratic exercise in our history'. Well maybe - it depends.

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-referendum-not-largest-democratic-exercise/

But no matter...and no matter what might happen - it must happen - regardless. Brilliant.

The demon entered the Gadarene swine and a madness came upon them - and they charged down the cliff into the sea and drowned.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

May be too close to call - but the actual referendum has been called 'decisive'; 'as representing 'the will of the people'.

Plus we hear of 'the largest mandate for anything in British history'; the biggest democratic exercise in our history'. Well maybe - it depends.

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-referendum-not-largest-democratic-exercise/

But no matter...and no matter what might happen - it must happen - regardless. Brilliant.

The demon entered the Gadarene swine and a madness came upon them - and they charged down the cliff into the sea.

The system we have, whether this referendum, the Scottish Independence or our systems of Govt, whether UK, Welsh, Scottish or NI only require one side to be larger than the other by the smallest of margins. That could be one seat in a parliament, 0.1% in a referendum. The rhetoric about decisive is just that, same as the hot air given out by all sides in all debates, but like it or not, no amount of wailing and tearing of hair will change the fact that is was the will of the people because leave won, they got more votes. Parliament could have set a 2/3 majority or similar but it didn't. Had remain won 52-48, that would also have been the will of the people, they just didn't.

 

[Hobbit]

I hope so also - but there is a lot of posturing going on and I am not sure I can believe a word that anyone is saying. And so we had this morning Brandon Lewis confirmed the BAFO is Final - but that the government might consider feedback from the EU - but that the offer remained Final...so Mr Lewis - is it final or not?

Just on one point; "is it final or not..." The UK was told for months that the EU wouldn't remove the backstop or reopen the WA, yet of late there's been noises that there is room for change. Nothing is final till the ink is dry on a document.

Both sides are playing the same game in that respect.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Reports coming out of Scottish court case are that Johnson has drafted the letter to be sent to the EU on the 19th October. It's ready to go. So what's the cunning plan...

The case is whether Johnson could be jailed if he did not send the letter the Benn Act demands he sends...if no deal agreed by 19th October

https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...rder-boris-johnson-to-be-imprisoned-1-5015689

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Just on one point; "is it final or not..." The UK was told for months that the EU wouldn't remove the backstop or reopen the WA, yet of late there's been noises that there is room for change. Nothing is final till the ink is dry on a document.

Both sides are playing the same game in that respect.

Yup - that was curious as Johnson said from Day#1 that there would be no negotiation at all until the backstop was removed from the Withdrawal Agreement. I am not aware that that has happened. Maybe the semantics are that we have been in discussions until now - and now we will negotiate - if the backstop is removed? Or not if it is a BAFO.

Someone in government must be feeling really clever about all of this stuff...

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

The system we have, whether this referendum, the Scottish Independence or our systems of Govt, whether UK, Welsh, Scottish or NI only require one side to be larger than the other by the smallest of margins. That could be one seat in a parliament, 0.1% in a referendum. The rhetoric about decisive is just that, same as the hot air given out by all sides in all debates, but like it or not, no amount of wailing and tearing of hair will change the fact that is was the will of the people because leave won, they got more votes. Parliament could have set a 2/3 majority or similar but it didn't. Had remain won 52-48, that would also have been the will of the people, they just didn't.

Being pedantic - what we are doing is not the will of the people - it is the will of that subset of the people who want it to happen. My will remains most definitely set against Leaving - though as mentioned - my will is not always the best will for me to act upon.

 

[SocketRocket]

Being pedantic - what we are doing is not the will of the people - it is the will of that subset of the people who want it to happen. My will remains most definitely set against Leaving - though as mentioned - my will is not always the best will for me to act upon.

Oh come on! Not this old chestnut once again, its getting beyond silly now. The will of the people in a Democracy is what a majority vote for when asked, when we vote in an MP in a General Election the one with the most votes gets elected no matter how close the result, should those who voted for the person who lost feel aggrieved; of course not! If the referendum result had been reversed by the same amount but parliament refused to accept it and worked in any way possible to change that result by calling for further referendums or saying "We know so much more now" how would you react? I know the answer to that; you would feel aggrieved and would be posting your diatribes of complaint on here.

 

[SocketRocket]

May be too close to call - but the actual referendum has been called 'decisive'; 'as representing 'the will of the people'.

Plus we hear of 'the largest mandate for anything in British history'; the biggest democratic exercise in our history'. Well maybe - it depends.

https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-referendum-not-largest-democratic-exercise/

But no matter...and no matter what might happen - it must happen - regardless. Brilliant.

The demon entered the Gaberdine swine and a madness came upon them - and they charged down the cliff into the sea and drowned.

Well, blow me down! I didn't know Pigs wore raincoats.

 

[Colonel Bogey]

IF, there is no agreement by the 31st Oct and Boris is sitting in the EU offices at 12 midnight trying to negotiate a deal and he and the EU run out of time can't Boris claim that the EU threw the UK out and it was not him that took us out?

 

[Hacker Khan]

Reports coming out of Scottish court case are that Johnson has drafted the letter to be sent to the EU on the 19th October. It's ready to go. So what's the cunning plan...

The case is whether Johnson could be jailed if he did not send the letter the Benn Act demands he sends...if no deal agreed by 19th October

https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...rder-boris-johnson-to-be-imprisoned-1-5015689

Fake news as signs above the motorway have been telling me I need to sort out my freight documentation if I'm going to Europe from the 1st November or something like that. And I believe signs above motorways much more than I do some remoaner peddling fake news.

 

[Hobbit]

Being pedantic - what we are doing is not the will of the people - it is the will of that subset of the people who want it to happen. My will remains most definitely set against Leaving - though as mentioned - my will is not always the best will for me to act upon.

You are in denial. We both know how voting works, and if you need your warped rationale to think it otherwise you've got a very bizarre perception of how society is structured.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Oh come on! Not this old chestnut once again, its getting beyond silly now. The will of the people in a Democracy is what a majority vote for when asked, when we vote in an MP in a General Election the one with the most votes gets elected no matter how close the result, should those who voted for the person who lost feel aggrieved; of course not! If the referendum result had been reversed by the same amount but parliament refused to accept it and worked in any way possible to change that result by calling for further referendums or saying "We know so much more now" how would you react? I know the answer to that; you would feel aggrieved and would be posting your diatribes of complaint on here.

I'll be as pedantic as I want over this. I know what it's supposed to mean, but not in my name - even although I might end up wanting us to leave with a good deal or even No Deal if it helps keeps Farage and crew away from Westminster.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

You are in denial. We both know how voting works, and if you need your warped rationale to think it otherwise you've got a very bizarre perception of how society is structured.

Not in denial at all. I know what it means. If I so choose to interpret the will of the people as the will of those who voted to leave then I will do so. But I won't be told that somehow I am part of it. I am not. As said elsewhere - I stand aside and watch as the Gadarene swine charge down the cliff into the sea.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Well, blow me down! I didn't know Pigs wore raincoats.

Never great to change the wording of someone else's posts.

 

[robinthehood]

Not in denial at all. I know what it means. If I so choose to interpret the will of the people as the will of those who voted to leave then I will do so. But I won't be told that somehow I am part of it. I am not. As said elsewhere - I stand aside and watch as the Gadarene swine charge down the cliff into the sea.

It's a fair point , its a push to call it the will of the people.
Kind of overstating it.

 

[Hobbit]

Not in denial at all. I know what it means. If I so choose to interpret the will of the people as the will of those who voted to leave then I will do so. But I won't be told that somehow I am part of it. I am not. As said elsewhere - I stand aside and watch as the Gadarene swine charge down the cliff into the sea.

Factually, less than half of the population voted Leave, as we both know. But you know full well how voting works. Your post is utter rubbish and trivialises the UK's democracy. Shame on you for that.

As for the Gadarene swine comment; really? You are equating people with swine? |And you would stand aside and not try and make the best of it for you, your family and society. And your christian values are.... I detest Sunday christians with a passion, and I'd like to think you're better than that.

I do wonder if you've reached the point of psychosis in your viewing of it all.

 

[User62651]

I ain't got a clue presently what's going to happen so quick look to bookies, see where they think we're heading as they're often 'in the know'.

Since last week Boris now odds on to leave Office in 2019 at odds of 10/11. Converts to 52%. Pretty short odds for a new PM.

Others
No Deal Brexit 4/1.
NO No Deal Brexit (can kicking) 1/5.
Revoke 9/4.

Corbyn, Clarke, Beckett, Swinson, Farage, Starmer in order 1-6 of next PM.
Gove and Raab as 'proper' Tories only 7th and 8th which surprised me.

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics

 

[SocketRocket]

Never great to change the wording of someone else's posts.

Come on, you know it was a light hearted joke.

 

[SocketRocket]

I'll be as pedantic as I want over this. I know what it's supposed to mean, but not in my name - even although I might end up wanting us to leave with a good deal or even No Deal if it helps keeps Farage and crew away from Westminster.

But you're not being Pedantic, you are being incorrect.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I ain't got a clue presently what's going to happen so quick look to bookies, see where they think we're heading as they're often 'in the know'.

Since last week Boris now odds on to leave Office in 2019 at odds of 10/11. Converts to 52%. Pretty short odds for a new PM.

Others
No Deal Brexit 4/1.
NO No Deal Brexit (can kicking) 1/5.
Revoke 9/4.

Corbyn, Clarke, Beckett, Swinson, Farage, Starmer in order 1-6 of next PM.
Gove and Raab as 'proper' Tories only 7th and 8th which surprised me.

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/british-politics

I see on paddy power it's 12/5 for us on leaving by the 31st October, deal or no deal. Which seeing as literally every cabinet member from the PM down has been saying will definitely happen, has got to be worth a flutter. I mean surely the whole cabinet cannot be so sure of something happening that possibly won't? As if that happens every supporter of Boris will not vote for the conservatives any more as from what I can tell, the only reason they are supporting Boris is because he has promised to deliver Brexit by the end of October. In which case Farage at 14 to 1 to be the next PM looks a canny bet.