Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Dando]

Lots of insults flying around but I notice no one has replied to my ' tell me the benefits of a no deal Brexit' question.
Well, apart from the message on a bus one. if that counts.

so there has been a reply!

 

[Deleted member 16999]

How could the Leave camp promise something it wasn't their's to promise? Who is being naive? But to be fair, there is a deal on the table. Therefore why are you complaining about the deal?

Equally, Remain said there would be no single market or customs union. To be honest, I expected it would be Leave then negotiate.

Round and round in circles. It isn't going to happen anyway.

Because in the run up to this unique election I was undecided, I was of the opinion of there being “good and bad” on both sides, my biggest fear (rightly or wrongly) was a No Deal scenario and it taking days, weeks, months, years to sort out.
Therefore I was content that the Leave literature and those campaigning for Leave stated we would negotiate a deal prior to starting any legal process to leave.

I obviously understand it may well of been empty promises, but isn’t that the risk we take in the run up to any election.

As for “complaining” about the deal, I would rather we stood up to the EU and insist on renegotiation until we have a deal the majority of Parliament will accept.

I certainly don’t want a No Deal.

How can we stand up to them?

First off we could of refused to hold these elections on Thursday and saved the money.

Then I would withold some of funds we pay.

And I would maintain this stance until they came back to the table.

 

[Slime]

Lots of insults flying around but I notice no one has replied to my ' tell me the benefits of a no deal Brexit' question.
Well, apart from the message on a bus one. if that counts.

Possibly because you are the most myopic person on this thread.
People can post literally anything, but if it doesn't fit your agenda, you just ignore it, ridicule it or tell them they're wrong.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

so there has been a reply!

No, I would love to think that the folk on here were much tooo sensible to advocate a no deal Brexit.
The problem I have is that I saw a poll somewhere that said 40%+ of leave voters would be happy with a no deal Brexit.

 

[Foxholer]

Read your second last sentence about 'internal investment' [UK]

You are being myopic, yet again! Did you notice the word 'could'? It doesn't mean the same thing as 'would'! Though the fact that UK Gov already commits to invest the same as EU should indicate it's likely to approve many of the projects - and, without the requirement to fund the EU, will have significantly more funds to enable it to do so!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Possibly because you are the most myopic person on this thread.
People can post literally anything, but if it doesn't fit your agenda, you just ignore it, ridicule it or tell them they're wrong.

I have a couple of very rude posters on the naughty step, so It may appear that I am ignoring some posts.
I would imagine that they are still posting their usual nasty stuff.

 

[Hobbit]

Because in the run up to this unique election I was undecided, I was of the opinion of there being “good and bad” on both sides, my biggest fear (rightly or wrongly) was a No Deal scenario and it taking days, weeks, months, years to sort out.
Therefore I was content that the Leave literature and those campaigning for Leave stated we would negotiate a deal prior to starting any legal process to leave.

I obviously understand it may well of been empty promises, but isn’t that the risk we take in the run up to any election.

As for “complaining” about the deal, I would rather we stood up to the EU and insist on renegotiation until we have a deal the majority of Parliament will accept.

I certainly don’t want a No Deal.

How can we stand up to them?

First off we could of refused to hold these elections on Thursday and saved the money.

Then I would withold some of funds we pay.

And I would maintain this stance until they came back to the table.

Is there such a thing as No Deal? Is there another totally unconnected Deal that gets continually ignored, or worse still denigrated? What about WTO terms, specifically the WTO rules on allowing preferential terms to one country but not the other?

The UK has been a member of WTO since 1995. The UK further enhanced its membership of WTO in Feb this year, and also has most favoured nation(MFN) status under WTO rules. As such the UK could trade with the EU under MFN status. Its already a deal of sorts, and not that bad in terms of trade rules.

EU lawyers have said that the UK can't trade as a MFN for 7 years. Why? Because its too good a deal for the UK? But it doesn't say anything about a 7 year qualifying time limit in the WTO rules. The EU is trying to do to the UK exactly what it has done with a number of African countries - and WTO has taken the EU to court on numerous occasions for this and won every single time. People say the UK is only a small country in a fight with the EU, but either forget or don't know that WTO will do a lot of the fighting for the UK.

I do like your idea of drip feeding money to the EU based on access.

 

[Deleted member 18121]

Lots of insults flying around but I notice no one has replied to my ' tell me the benefits of a no deal Brexit' question.
Well, apart from the message on a bus one. if that counts.

I believe the "benefits" are a matter of opinion and a question that no one can answer with any certainty.

In my opinion a no deal option is best because I believe we could be in a better position to negotiate (from scratch) our own deals. I presume the contrary opinion would be that the deal we have now is the best possible deal so why leave.

The problem I have with that is that is seems very short sighted, despite being in the EU for 40 years and not having given a go being "out".

Again, it's a game of opinions and no one can say for certain which way is right ..... But I'm willing to take that leap, others are not.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I believe the "benefits" are a matter of opinion and a question that no one can answer with any certainty.

In my opinion a no deal option is best because I believe we could be in a better position to negotiate (from scratch) our own deals. I presume the contrary opinion would be that the deal we have now is the best possible deal so why leave.

The problem I have with that is that is seems very short sighted, despite being in the EU for 40 years and not having given a go being "out".

Again, it's a game of opinions and no one can say for certain which way is right ..... But I'm willing to take that leap, others are not.

Thank you for your polite reply.

 

[Foxholer]

No, I would love to think that the folk on here were much tooo sensible to advocate a no deal Brexit.
The problem I have is that I saw a poll somewhere that said 40%+ of leave voters would be happy with a no deal Brexit.

If you actually read the 'Agreement' proposed by EU and being pushed by May, there's actually no deal in anyway...it's simply an agreement about UK's termination of EU Membership, with some pretty catastrophic clauses that could be invoked in certain circumstances - that mean UK is still effectively controlled from Brussels/Strasbourg. It's the epitome of (being on the wrong end of) May's 'No Deal is better than a bad deal' statement!. So compared with that 'deal', I'd certainly prefer No Deal!

The Exit Agreement should really be pretty trivial. However Northern Ireland's borders present a (significant) complication. I believe the EU has used that to frustrate the exit process!

Trade, Standards, Co-operation etc agreements have not been formally started, and won't until the Exit Agreement is finalised. Had we left on March 29, these could have started by now!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I see that Farage is the latest MP to be attacked with milkshake. Is this really the state of modern politics, where people have been so radicalised that an MEP isn't safe to campaign without fear of being attacked.

It's pathetic that ANY MP is attacked by the public.

I do not think my wife and I have been radicalised, in fact we are probably two of the most law abiding citizens you could find.
But given the chance...................................

 

[drdel]

Lots of insults flying around but I notice no one has replied to my ' tell me the benefits of a no deal Brexit' question.
Well, apart from the message on a bus one. if that counts.

Many have posted their opinions on why leaving is a good idea.

If you're really that fussed you could 'search' back on my posts where you'll find I consistently laid out what I, as an economist, think. IMO the future for the UK inside the EU would see us soaked for proportionately more and more cash as the EU attempts to expand its areas of influence. The EU has given preferential funding to schemes for the other members rather than the UK with, in my direct experience, little or no sensible controls & processes. As a result the UK has been made uncompetitive in many sectors of the internal market while others flout the investment rules with little or no downside.

There is considerable anti-EU feeling across members so it will be interesting to see if, following this round of elections and the demise of Juncker and his cohorts a 'new' set of MEPs will stem the expansionist agenda and whether it can then regain its roots as a sensible trading alliance - I have my doubts hence I firmly believe the UK has to develop its own way on the global market.

 

[Fade and Die]

Many have posted their opinions on why leaving is a good idea.

If you're really that fussed you could 'search' back on my posts where you'll find I consistently laid out what I, as an economist, think. IMO the future for the UK inside the EU would see us soaked for proportionately more and more cash as the EU attempts to expand its areas of influence. The EU has given preferential funding to schemes for the other members rather than the UK with, in my direct experience, little or no sensible controls & processes. As a result the UK has been made uncompetitive in many sectors of the internal market while others flout the investment rules with little or no downside.

There is considerable anti-EU feeling across members so it will be interesting to see if, following this round of elections and the demise of Juncker and his cohorts a 'new' set of MEPs will stem the expansionist agenda and whether it can then regain its roots as a sensible trading alliance - I have my doubts hence I firmly believe the UK has to develop its own way on the global market.

I wouldn’t hold your breath for a reply... That’s just the sort of post our Poundland Rob Roy hates 😶

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Many have posted their opinions on why leaving is a good idea.

If you're really that fussed you could 'search' back on my posts where you'll find I consistently laid out what I, as an economist, think. IMO the future for the UK inside the EU would see us soaked for proportionately more and more cash as the EU attempts to expand its areas of influence. The EU has given preferential funding to schemes for the other members rather than the UK with, in my direct experience, little or no sensible controls & processes. As a result the UK has been made uncompetitive in many sectors of the internal market while others flout the investment rules with little or no downside.

There is considerable anti-EU feeling across members so it will be interesting to see if, following this round of elections and the demise of Juncker and his cohorts a 'new' set of MEPs will stem the expansionist agenda and whether it can then regain its roots as a sensible trading alliance - I have my doubts hence I firmly believe the UK has to develop its own way on the global market.

Thank you for your reply but I was specifically asking for the benefits of a 'No Deal' Brexit which seems to be gathering pace with leavers.

 

[robinthehood]

Thank you for your reply but I was specifically asking for the benefits of a 'No Deal' Brexit which seems to be gathering pace with leavers.

I've listed them out below if that helps

 

[jp5]

I see Farage's lot is banning Channel 4 from their events following the investigation into their funding.

The Brexit Party using the Trump playbook. I'd like to think the good people of this land are better than falling for that.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I see Farage's lot is banning Channel 4 from their events following the investigation into their funding.

The Brexit Party using the Trump playbook. I'd like to think the good people of this land are better than falling for that.

Fake news....

 

[Hobbit]

I see Farage's lot is banning Channel 4 from their events following the investigation into their funding.

The Brexit Party using the Trump playbook. I'd like to think the good people of this land are better than falling for that.

I can't find the detail of Channel 4's ban, other than there is a ban. What is it they've said about the Brexit party, other than its being bank rolled by Aaron Banks. Have they reported news or put a negative editorial to it?

The Electoral Commission is visiting the Brexit Party's HQ today to investigate their financing. Providing Bank's donation is declared, what's the issue? That said, I do think the Electoral Commission needs to update its criteria. PayPal, which is the route of a lot of the Brexit Party's funding is very difficult to track, e.g. there may be £1XXXX coming from foreign donations that only register as GBP on PayPal to the Brexit Party. It is open to abuse.

Gordon Brown has had a fair bit to say about the Brexit Party's financing via PayPal. Its a smear unless he can prove it. Kate Hoey MP, also Labour, has said its a smear against the Brexit Party.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I can't find the detail of Channel 4's ban, other than there is a ban. What is it they've said about the Brexit party, other than its being bank rolled by Aaron Banks. Have they reported news or put a negative editorial to it?

The Electoral Commission is visiting the Brexit Party's HQ today to investigate their financing. Providing Bank's donation is declared, what's the issue? That said, I do think the Electoral Commission needs to update its criteria. PayPal, which is the route of a lot of the Brexit Party's funding is very difficult to track, e.g. there may be £1XXXX coming from foreign donations that only register as GBP on PayPal to the Brexit Party. It is open to abuse.

Gordon Brown has had a fair bit to say about the Brexit Party's financing via PayPal. Its a smear unless he can prove it. Kate Hoey MP, also Labour, has said its a smear against the Brexit Party.

Depends if you are a Farage fan boy or not. If you are then no doubt it is a libellous slur. If you are not then it is a very dangerous move by someone who objects to a news outlet digging into their finances a bit. And as for Kate Hoey then she's a hard leaver so it's not exactly surprising she's said that. And if it's such a smear then I'm sure Farage will sue Channel 4 and the courts will find in his favour....

Absolutely agree with jp5, I'd of hoped the UK was better than falling for this sub Trump level BS of attacking any media outlet that does not just repeat your views without question or looks a bit deeper into someones background and finances to see if politicians are being financed by organisations with very vested interests. But after the last 2 years I have a depressing feeling that we no longer are better, and we have a cloned Trump like future to look forwards to.

And as for Gordon Brown he called for an investigation into the Brexit party's funding and said 'Democracy is fatally undermined if unexplained, unreported and thus undeclared and perhaps under the counter and underhand campaign finance – from whom and from where we do not know – is being used to influence the very elections that are at the heart of our democratic system. ' Not sure that constitutes a smear in my book, to me it more of a better understanding of democracy than many seem to have.

 

[Hobbit]

Depends if you are a Farage fan boy or not. If you are then no doubt it is a libellous slur. If you are not then it is a very dangerous move by someone who objects to a news outlet digging into their finances a bit. And as for Kate Hoey then she's a hard leaver so it's not exactly surprising she's said that. And if it's such a smear then I'm sure Farage will sue Channel 4 and the courts will find in his favour....

Absolutely agree with jp5, I'd of hoped the UK was better than falling for this sub Trump level BS of attacking any media outlet that does not just repeat your views without question or looks a bit deeper into someones background and finances to see if politicians are being financed by organisations with very vested interests. But after the last 2 years I have a depressing feeling that we no longer are better, and we have a cloned Trump like future to look forwards to.

I neither agree nor disagree with JP5, and I'm definitely no Farage/BNP/Brexit Party fanboy. My question is how was it reported by Ch4? Farage and Brexit is very polarising/marmite. If its been reported fair and square, no problem.

On a wider note, and more as a generalisation when it comes to news reporting, I prefer the news to reported not editorialised. I want to form my own opinion, not have some form of spin on it to make it look good/bad/exaggerated.