Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Tashyboy]

Do you really want the current shower negotiating our future in these critical times?

Nope, I did say a week or so ago, that these idiots that don't know which feet there shoes go on are the ones that will be negotiating deals.

 

[Hacker Khan]

This 👍👍 I have been saying for months and months The deal offered is crap. The EU had a chance ( when May went back) to soften the blow to the Irish backstop and they refused. Instead of the EU sitting round a table, you have a dictator also known as chief negotiator Barnier saying " this deal is not changing". Instead of the EU countries democratically discussing what will be offered, one person Barnier has played hardball. It is a decision that someone took and has helped neither side. When all this is finished his name will be mud.

He had the complete backing of all the EU countries to negotiate o their behalf after they had an agreed strategy. Something we struggled to do. And I really hope that after all this your main take is not that Barnier is the main bad guy here.

 

[spongebob59]

After their first two attempts at a coup flopped miserably, the Cooper/Boles/Benn/Letwin shadow Government have significant escalated their takeover plans, with Yvette Cooper tabling a full-on Brexit-blocking Bill which they will try to ram through the Commons tomorrow. The Bill tries to block a no-deal Brexit by ordering the PM to seek yet another Article 50 extension from the EU.
The plotters aren’t even trying to use the excuse any more that they’re just trying to let Parliament have its say, by trying to force through an entire Act of Parliament they are taking on the mantle of a Government but with none of the accountability or scrutiny that should involve. All in the name of blocking the country’s biggest ever democratic vote…

 

[spongebob59]

So @oletwinofficial and @YvetteCooperMP have - at last some would say - organised a genuine moment of Brexit truth, with a bill they are laying, the European Union (Withdrawal) (No.5) Bill, that would compel the PM to sue the EU for another Brexit postponement. It would be...

the definitive castration of this government, if passed by MPs and Lords. But time really tight for it actually to work, because there would be literally no time for the PM to decide on a delay, work out what it's for, and brief @eucopresident so that he can sound out EU...

leaders ahead of the emergency council on 10 April. It is all very well for MPs and Lords to say they want a postponement, but why on earth should EU leaders agree if there is literally no sense of what the UK actually wants?

 

[Deleted member 18121]

Makes a lot of sense - at least for some institutions, that are 'based' outside UK already. The overall value to 'UK Ltd' may not change for those institutions, but could well do, dramatically, for others (for Banks, the likes of Barclays, RBS, Lloyds etc for example?) depending on where profits are reported/tax is paid!

you may well be right, I cant say for sure but we "deal" with 3-4 different Barclays entities, 2 of those are not UK based so I suspect they'd have a plan in place to get round it.....I honestly would be surprised if suddenly these huge banks couldn't operate.

 

[Tashyboy]

He had the complete backing of all the EU countries to negotiate o their behalf after they had an agreed strategy. Something we struggled to do. And I really hope that after all this your main take is not that Barnier is the main bad guy here.

I totally get that, but the deal he negotiated after the backing of the EU took 20 minutes to ratify. It has taken 6 months of turmoil in this country to get no where. As a negotiator, his stance has not moved one bit. So how is he negotiating. The bit where MPs should bend and sway to get a deal done does not end at the Dover straits. That bending and swaying should also be happening in Brussels. My main grief is this. We as a nation keep pointing the finger at the incompetence that is the HOP. Yet the deal is supposed to be beneficial to both the EU and the UK. Yet Nothing has changed in Brussels. So yes without hindsight he could and should of been better.
I will ask myself one question, Has Barnier negotiated a good deal getting a No Deal.

 

[Foxholer]

...
I'm sure there was a pretty bright capable team of civil servants doing the donkey work in the negotiations anyway and they came up with the best they could after May's red lines were exposed as fantasy.

Seems to me that her Red Lines are quite sensible definitions of boundaries! While not achievable/relevant for the WA negotiation, they certainly seem to define what 'Leave the EU' means in practice!

 

[Foxholer]

you may well be right, I cant say for sure but we "deal" with 3-4 different Barclays entities, 2 of those are not UK based so I suspect they'd have a plan in place to get round it.....I honestly would be surprised if suddenly these huge banks couldn't operate.

Of course they'll be able to operate! They are not likely to stop operating - as it's profitable to do so! And, in reality, part of their business is actually providing exactly the expertise they need to do so for their existing clients!

The question I'm asking is whether (and by how much) it will cost 'UK Ltd'!

 

[Foxholer]

And why is it all negative about trade? Jesus H, most of our companies are owned by the rest of Europe so any delay in product at the ports would hit their production and therefore profits. So that's just not going to happen is it. Think about it.

To continue the (sac)religious approach to discussion.....John 11:35!

 

[User62651]

Honest question here as I have missed this point. Can someone tell me what the DUP actually want. They do not want the May deal, they do not want any of the options that have been put forward for votes and have voted against everything. Do they want no deal, no brexit, I honestly cannot recall reading what they do want, only what they do not want.

DUP have complete indifference to Brexit, they don't care about Brexit, their constituents voted heavily remain. All they care about is the UK Union and being a full part of the UK. Any moves they are or are not making is to defend the UK union and their place in it. End of.
They were offered a confidence and supply deal by the Govt in exchange for votes and a lot of money. They've taken the money but haven't quite supplied the votes! There were no other groups of MPs that May could offer that C+S deal to in 2017 - Lib Dems, SNP, Plaid, Sinn Fein would have all told her no.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I totally get that, but the deal he negotiated after the backing of the EU took 20 minutes to ratify. It has taken 6 months of turmoil in this country to get no where. As a negotiator, his stance has not moved one bit. So how is he negotiating. The bit where MPs should bend and sway to get a deal done does not end at the Dover straits. That bending and swaying should also be happening in Brussels. My main grief is this. We as a nation keep pointing the finger at the incompetence that is the HOP. Yet the deal is supposed to be beneficial to both the EU and the UK. Yet Nothing has changed in Brussels. So yes without hindsight he could and should of been better.
I will ask myself one question, Has Barnier negotiated a good deal getting a No Deal.

Upto now I’d possibly argue he has played a blinder, everyday we stay in and ask for extensions etc, they keep getting money from us.
Then in a no deal scenario, any aspects of May’s bad deal we want they can increase the price on.
The fallout is going to go both ways, but it’s still 27 v 1 at the moment.

 

[Foxholer]

For the first time, I never knew the leave campaign promised a deal. But with all the crap going off, am not sure how they could of got one. To simplify things. It now seems that the political party's are voting on proposals that have not been accepted by the EU. Any proposal that hypothetically could get voted through could well be knocked back by the EU.

Ah! Reality strikes!!

 

[Kellfire]

DUP have complete indifference to Brexit, they don't care about Brexit, their constituents voted heavily remain. All they care about is the UK Union and being a full part of the UK. Any moves they are or are not making is to defend the UK union and their place in it. End of.
They were offered a confidence and supply deal by the Govt in exchange for votes and a lot of money. They've taken the money but haven't quite supplied the votes! There were no other groups of MPs that May could offer that C+S deal to in 2017 - Lib Dems, SNP, Plaid, Sinn Fein would have all told her no.

I’d imagine the type of troglodytes who vote DUP compromised the bulk of those who also voted to leave the EU in Northern Ireland and the DUP care very little about governing for anyone but those who are ideologically aligned with them.

 

[IanM]

The only think the post referendum period has proved, is that the EU took charge several years ago while folk were watching Reality Telly!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

At least reference your sources

https://twitter.com/x/status/1052472392545579008

Mine was the Scottish version, yours must have allowed for London Weighting.

 

[Deleted member 18121]

Maggie Thatcher 1990-2(ish) with her thoughts on the Euro and the EU. Scary how accurate her thoughts were.

 

[IanM]

...and Peter Shaw's in the 1970s too.... spot on.... Common Market?? Just the con that was a stepping stone to the fully Federal Europe.

Who says so? ... Barnier and Tusk...often. (and no, they don't call it a con, just a milestone)

 

[Hacker Khan]

I totally get that, but the deal he negotiated after the backing of the EU took 20 minutes to ratify. It has taken 6 months of turmoil in this country to get no where. As a negotiator, his stance has not moved one bit. So how is he negotiating. The bit where MPs should bend and sway to get a deal done does not end at the Dover straits. That bending and swaying should also be happening in Brussels. My main grief is this. We as a nation keep pointing the finger at the incompetence that is the HOP. Yet the deal is supposed to be beneficial to both the EU and the UK. Yet Nothing has changed in Brussels. So yes without hindsight he could and should of been better.
I will ask myself one question, Has Barnier negotiated a good deal getting a No Deal.

As was pointed in in a rather good article someone linked to on here the other day, the EU have treated this mostly as a process and started planning for it straight away. They and we knew what the rules were for being in the EU and they have just stuck to those. We on the other hand went into total turmoil as soon as the result came out, PMs resigning, votes of no confidence in the opposition. Since they we have mostly treated it as a political football, bending to the needs of the factions of the Tory party to keep the party together, Corbyn using it to try and force an election etc etc, when it is clear that there is not political alignment in this country.

The EU have compromised on TMays deal, but of course that was never going to be enough for some of the hard liners so it is portrayed as the EU not budging, when they have. Recently they practically told us to go away again and granted a further extension to prevent us going out accidentally with a no deal, but we don't seem to have learned. If you know what your position is and have an agreed strategy then you can get things agreed pretty quickly. If you don't well, I present exhibit A my lud, the last 3 years.

 

[spongebob59]

So @oletwinofficial and @YvetteCooperMP have - at last some would say - organised a genuine moment of Brexit truth, with a bill they are laying, the European Union (Withdrawal) (No.5) Bill, that would compel the PM to sue the EU for another Brexit postponement. It would be...

the definitive castration of this government, if passed by MPs and Lords. But time really tight for it actually to work, because there would be literally no time for the PM to decide on a delay, work out what it's for, and brief @eucopresident so that he can sound out EU...

leaders ahead of the emergency council on 10 April. It is all very well for MPs and Lords to say they want a postponement, but why on earth should EU leaders agree if there is literally no sense of what the UK actually wants?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1113047756355010565

 

[IanM]

If you know what your position is and have an agreed strategy then you can get things agreed pretty quickly. If you don't well, I present exhibit A my lud, the last 3 years.

Well we agree on that, but we differ on me thinking that the UK PM has been completely clear on what path we take, and I'd be really suprised if the EU are not behind her.

They need it to look like the UK people want to stay in.... if reports of loo roll shortages (etc) don't work, frustrate the life out of them with the exit process...

Exhibit B m'lud, - people in the media brand Brexit as the shambolic process, not the actual state of the UK "out of the EU" Quite specific, Comms 101 -