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Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

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Hacker Khan said:
He had the complete backing of all the EU countries to negotiate o their behalf after they had an agreed strategy. Something we struggled to do. And I really hope that after all this your main take is not that Barnier is the main bad guy here.
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You are not wrong there. Imagine the negotiating position the UK would be in if all of parliament were backing them. The current situation is a complete farce and has no chance of reaching a win/win solution.

And where are the Clowns
Quick send in the Clowns
Dont bother
They're here.
 
SocketRocket said:
You are not wrong there. Imagine the negotiating position the UK would be in if all of parliament were backing them. The current situation is a complete farce and has no chance of reaching a win/win solution.

And where are the Clowns
Quick send in the Clowns
Dont bother
They're here.
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Imagine the negotiating position TM would of been in if she’d of talked to parliament, or even some of them or even just a few or even her own party.............
 
pauldj42 said:
Imagine the negotiating position TM would of been in if she’d of talked to parliament, or even some of them or even just a few or even her own party.............
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But there is no consensus of opinion so what good would it do. They can't even agree on anything after all these indicitative votes.
 
SocketRocket said:
But there is no consensus of opinion so what good would it do. They can't even agree on anything after all these indicitative votes.
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There’s no consensus now, there might of been 2 years ago before she got herself in this mess. She never tried!
 
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Kellfire said:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-no-deal-theresa-may-vote-cabinet-civil-service-mark-sedwill-a8850531.html

Brexit means Brexit. And possible recession and cost hikes to eat.
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Its more of the Project Fear. How would leaving the EU affect policing on our streets, there have been a number of reports indicating that with lower tarrifs food prices could be lower (unless you are desperate for a lettuce 😉) He also seems to be at odds with the Bank Of England who still expect we would get positive growth.
 
pauldj42 said:
That’s because you won’t or can’t see TM is responsible for this mess.
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She may be responsible for quite a lot of it. But for me, the main finger of blame should be pointed straight at those on the Vote Leave side who persuaded everyone that we'd be leaving with a great deal, the greatest deal ever negotiated.

We'd hold all the cards, the German car manufacturers and French cheese and wine makers would force the EU to give us the greatest deal since records began. There'd be nothing but sunlit uplands and God save the Queen.

People believed it, and voted accordingly, then all those prominent Leavers slunk away, waiting for the truth to hit the fan. Knowing that TM was in an absolute No Win situation.

Once she's ousted, then watch them come slinking back in. Pretending that they had nothing to do with the mess.

This shitshow belongs firmly to Farage, Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Banks, Wigmore, Baker etc. They own it.
 
Tashyboy said:
I totally get that, but the deal he negotiated after the backing of the EU took 20 minutes to ratify. It has taken 6 months of turmoil in this country to get no where. As a negotiator, his stance has not moved one bit. So how is he negotiating. The bit where MPs should bend and sway to get a deal done does not end at the Dover straits. That bending and swaying should also be happening in Brussels. My main grief is this. We as a nation keep pointing the finger at the incompetence that is the HOP. Yet the deal is supposed to be beneficial to both the EU and the UK. Yet Nothing has changed in Brussels. So yes without hindsight he could and should of been better.
I will ask myself one question, Has Barnier negotiated a good deal getting a No Deal.
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Ask yourself this - why has Barnier done such a good job negotiating on behalf of 27 countries? Because he knows what they want. Why have our negotiators done such a terrible job? Because we as a country triggered article 50 before deciding what it was we actually want.
 
Doon - May has never wanted a no deal Brexit...ever.

And, JP5, Yes...they NEED one of the (very) few net contributors to stay in and need to scare others out of leaving.

Easy peasy, especially as the Federalist MPs are keen to take no deal out of the equation. Who "negotiates" and removes the "walk away" option. Someone who expects "not" to leave, that's who.
 
jp5 said:
Ask yourself this - why has Barnier done such a good job negotiating on behalf of 27 countries? Because he knows what they want. Why have our negotiators done such a terrible job? Because we as a country triggered article 50 before deciding what it was we actually want.
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But what they want and what they get are two different things. What this country actually wanted was out. Dont think the people complicated matter. People in the HOP from All sides did that. ☹️
 
bluewolf said:
She may be responsible for quite a lot of it. But for me, the main finger of blame should be pointed straight at those on the Vote Leave side who persuaded everyone that we'd be leaving with a great deal, the greatest deal ever negotiated.

We'd hold all the cards, the German car manufacturers and French cheese and wine makers would force the EU to give us the greatest deal since records began. There'd be nothing but sunlit uplands and God save the Queen.

People believed it, and voted accordingly, then all those prominent Leavers slunk away, waiting for the truth to hit the fan. Knowing that TM was in an absolute No Win situation.

Once she's ousted, then watch them come slinking back in. Pretending that they had nothing to do with the mess.

This shitshow belongs firmly to Farage, Johnson, Gove, Rees-Mogg, Banks, Wigmore, Baker etc. They own it.
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I understand that's how you see things but I fail to see how you can believe the reason most of us voted to leave was due to what Bojo or others were saying. if I were to suggest the reason you voted to remain was influenced by the silly apocalyptic post vote projections Osborne, Cameron and their mates were banding around then I would in my opinion be insulting your intelligence. I would hope you might give us the same considerations.
 
pauldj42 said:
That’s because you won’t or can’t see TM is responsible for this mess.
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I don't understand why you say that. I have openly criticised her deal and the way she has negotiated it. In saying this I have also explained how I also blame many MPs for putting their own interests and opinions before the democratic instruction they asked us for.
 
Boles says the PM has 'mismanaged and misunderstood' Brexit by only trying please the Tory party, never trying to construct a plan for the whole country, but party is gripped in combination of 'cowardice' from Remainers and 'dogma' from the Brexiteers that is 'not pretty'
2. He says maybe 'inevitable' that he'd end up leaving party, but that it was 'profoundly depressing' last night, when ministers in govt who'd promised they'd back his compromise plan, failed to vote that way in the end
3. Boles questions whether all politics heading for a bigger shakeup as the 'meteor' of Brexit has smashed everything up - warns that Tories might be heading for more than a decade in opposition to recover because it 'doesn't really exist anymore'
4. While Cabinet still stuck inside No 10, Boles condemns them, saying they have been 'cowardly, instead of brave', and 'too selfish' - and that 'no one in Cabinet now or since 2017 has earned the right to lead the country'
5. Last thought for now - full story + clips up as soon as we can - but Boles admits Remainers 'missed the boat' when others like @Anna_Soubry were arguing months ago for move to a softer Brexit - and as a group they've been slow to come together around an alternative plan
 
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