Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Deleted member 1418]

I just heard a comment on newsnight that i thought was apt. "What if the referendum result would have been reversed and the vote was to remain, then parliament voted for us to leave. How would remainers feel about that"

I can see the point that quote was trying to make but in the wider context I'm afraid that's not relevant at all. Obviously if the original referendum result had been remain then we'd have just carried on as we were.

Besides the majority of MPs are remainders.

In all likelihood Cameron would still be PM! Even Boris and Gove would probably be back in the Cabinet despite campaigning for Leave.

Leave in the form of Farage and others would still be vocal but the question of Europe within the Tory party would've been put to bed for a good while IMHO; at least until the next Treaty change/Member State increase/transfer of even more powers to Brussels.

There are 2 reasons why we're in this mess the way I see it.

1) Brexit and the negotiations should have been led by Leave MPs from across all parties, reporting back to the Government and Parliament.

2) The Remain side has been far better orchestrated trying to derail Brexit AFTER the referendum than it was trying to prevent it BEFORE! Remain took the general public for granted and just assumed the result would go their way.

 

[Deleted member 18121]

I'm accused of seeing bias where there is none.... Jon snow commenting on the pro brexit march yesterday:

Absolutely outrageous.

 

[User20205]

I'm accused of seeing bias where there is none.... Jon snow commenting on the pro brexit march yesterday:

Absolutely outrageous.

Its definitely loaded, but he has a point re diversity. look at the images from yesterday it’s a group from one demographic. I’m not sure that’s particularly healthy moving forward.

 

[User20205]

I genuinely feel I’ve moved position on this. I voted remain, mainly to preserve the status quo, as things are ok......but I do find the detachment between the result & the desire of Westminster to implement it, worrying.
Post referendum, I’ve read more, and it seems to me that the EU project is a barrier to democracy, and this is a prime example of that.
If there was a second referendum, which I don’t advocate, I’m not sure how I’d vote. If I could see a definitive roadmap to leave, that would sway me

 

[bluewolf]

Its definitely loaded, but he has a point re diversity. look at the images from yesterday it’s a group from one demographic. I’m not sure that’s particularly healthy moving forward.

Agreed. The point was crass and unnecessary, but the attendees at yesterday's march should have worried a few people. The Far Right from all across Europe were represented. A bit worrying and totally unrepresentative of the majority of the Leave fraternity.

 

[robinthehood]

I'm accused of seeing bias where there is none.... Jon snow commenting on the pro brexit march yesterday:

Absolutely outrageous.

Your original post was that the pro brexit march got less air time, yet it was one of the main stories across the news. Now you're trying to find a different angle. Not sure I'd be pleased to have Tommy Robinson representing me

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I must say i m officially in doting admiration for May... she plans to bring the bill for the 4th time !!!

She is like the drunken boxer who keeps getting up and throws a punch every time she gets KOed

And like a true gambler Hacker and I put a tenner on it passing this time. The margin of defeat is narrowing every time. She must be onto something here..

Alternatively she's an addict who doesn't know when or how to stop.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I have criticised May on her poor negotiating and producing this terrible withdraw agreement. Lets imagine she would have taken a harder stance and negotiated a better deal that included a good free trade arrangement that satisfied the Irish border, security for EU and UK citizens etc, would such a deal still have a chance of being accepted by parliament. I imagine Labour, The SNP, Lib Dems, Green and a number of Remain Conservatives would probably vote down anything that means we leave the EU, in the case of Labour it would be voted down whatever it was other than another general election. May really has an impossible task.

The only thing stopping the deal is the Irish border. Sort that and it would have got through ages ago.

One could argue that if you know you can't get something through parliament then don't waste everyone's time trying.

Said it before but there are many remainers who, whilst not wanting to leave, would accept a deal. If people like that are continually portrayed as wanting to revoke article 50 then eventually they may well move to that position.

 

[robinthehood]

Just checking if bojo's cake he said we can have and eat is ready yet? Also my son has a dodgy knee and the earliest consultant apt is august, Is that 350 million available yet? so we can speed the NHS up a bit

 

[Hobbit]

Rubbish! You’re once again trying to shift blame, Labour put forward a plan to Leave as one of the options the other night. Some Labour politicians voted for her plan today, more tories didn’t.
She hasn’t listened, it has come from her own cabinet.
I’m 100% positive if the roles had been reversed you would only be blaming Labour!
If she’d of got such a plan and satisfied her own party and the DUP, everyone else would of been irrelevant.

I am adopting a policy on here where a post contains an insult i will not debate it. If you want to question me try a less confrontational approach please.

To be fair, he said your post was rubbish, not you. I can’t see an insult in it.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Contrast the diversity between the personnel at yesterday's pro Brexit march and last weeks leave march.
I know what side I would rather be on.

The NI border was always going to be the stumbling block to Brexit.
May's cabinet must have known that from day one.
I would imagine it would have been far from the thoughts of the vast majority of Leave voters when they cast their vote.

 

[Deleted member 18121]

Your original post was that the pro brexit march got less air time, yet it was one of the main stories across the news. Now you're trying to find a different angle. Not sure I'd be pleased to have Tommy Robinson representing me

I'm not trying to "find" anything, simply mentioning a news clip related to brexit from last night that is still loaded with the feeling that leavers are white racists....

As for Tommy Robinson - I've done enough research on the guy to not be fully swayed by the way the mainstream media portray him, especially in recent times. I don't expect anyone else to have to same view as me - we all have the right to dislike someone for what we think they believe in. I think otherwise on him today.

 

[Foxholer]

We're did the 650+ come from. Do you have your own private MP.

It would probably have been easier if you had quoted the correct post, but I assume you are querying the '+'! Agreed there are precisely 650.

 

[Hacker Khan]

I'm not trying to "find" anything, simply mentioning a news clip related to brexit from last night that is still loaded with the feeling that leavers are white racists....

As for Tommy Robinson - I've done enough research on the guy to not be fully swayed by the way the mainstream media portray him, especially in recent times. I don't expect anyone else to have to same view as me - we all have the right to dislike someone for what we think they believe in. I think otherwise on him today.

Someone once said that to debate with someone you need to understand their thinking, which I agree with.

So in the interests of debate what about Tommy Robinsons 'manifesto' for want of a better description, so you agree with? And are there any parts you do not?

 

[Foxholer]

...
The NI border was always going to be the stumbling block to Brexit.
May's cabinet must have known that from day one.
...

I'm sure they did!

...
I would imagine it would have been far from the thoughts of the vast majority of Leave voters when they cast their vote.

And so it should have been!

The difficulty of 'managing' the Irish border has no bearing on whether folk believe UK should (or should not) Leave the EU!

 

[bluewolf]

I'm not trying to "find" anything, simply mentioning a news clip related to brexit from last night that is still loaded with the feeling that leavers are white racists....

As for Tommy Robinson - I've done enough research on the guy to not be fully swayed by the way the mainstream media portray him, especially in recent times. I don't expect anyone else to have to same view as me - we all have the right to dislike someone for what we think they believe in. I think otherwise on him today.

The man is a hate monger, an opportunist, a criminal and a viper. And that's my educated opinion....

Oh, and as I said before, I know full well that yesterday's march is in no way indicative of the entire Leave vote, but it might be time for the ordinary Leave voter to reclaim the narrative from the Far Right morons who are claiming to represent you.

They're in danger of making it very easy for Politicians to trivialise the Leave vote as "Thick, uneducated racists" and use this to turn public opinion against the (God help me) "Will of the People".

 

[Foxholer]

...
Parliament only saw the details in Dec last year, Remain MP’s were never going to back it, she’d lost the support of hard liners in her party, it went too far for some and not far enough for others, so instead of listening and trying to amend her deal to a point of getting a majority we have had all sorts of MP’s putting suggestions forward, trying to come up with an alternative that Parliament and more importantly TM would support, all to no avail and today she tried for a 3rd time, all this in 3 months!

I really don’t know what people expected Parliament to do? Should they of just shut up and accepted a bad deal?
Tried as they did, to get involved and make a lot of noise, but all to fall on deaf ears.
Push the No Deal, make a lot of people happy but take us into the unknown and hope any pain would be short term?

TM has to make some concessions, whether that’s to resign or start to listen I don’t know, but one thing’s for sure, it’s still her choice and hers alone to choose.

I believe May realised that trying to get concensus was never going to work - at least for her, as she's not 'set up for consensus'. Her performance in the Home Office demonstrated that!

While she could probably made a 'better show of it' by defining, then agreeing!! her/the Red Lines, I still believe we would have ended very much in the same place that we are now! I believe the only way to implement the Referendum result, from where we are now, is to lt the defasult 'No Deal' withdrawl happen, then start negotiations about borders and relationships, particularly trade, from scratch!

 

[Foxholer]

What I'm interested in the selected 'alternatives' our MPs eventually distill. Does this start a new round with the EU. The crux, it to me seems is whether really the EU want the UK to say what they want - if so where have they been over the last couple of years?

What can we present in two weeks that will be inline with the Barnier's deal as agreed by the 27 and NOT to be re-opened. A General Election might bring on a new UK team but they will still have to negotiate with the same EU?

Goal posts on wheels!!

A GE will achieve absolutely zilch! Tha call for one is simply a (totally understandable) ploy by Corbyn to grab power! Labour negotiators will not be able to get any better deals from the EU than the Tory ones.

 

[Slime]

A GE will achieve absolutely zilch! The call for one is simply a (totally understandable) ploy by Corbyn to grab power! Labour negotiators will not be able to get any better deals from the EU than the Tory ones.

I don't believe Corbyn wants to be PM yet, because we are still in the EU.
That would mean he'd have to negotiate a leave deal, which I think is nigh on impossible to do, when I don't believe he wants to negotiate with anyone.
I think he wants to become PM AFTER we've left the EU so he won't have to negotiate deals with anyone.
He'll then be in charge of an independant state which he could then totally ruin without the interference of Europe!

 

[Foxholer]

I am adopting a policy on here where a post contains an insult i will not debate it. If you want to question me try a less confrontational approach please.

Oh the irony!

Though it should reduce the amount of balderdash/twaddle I have to read through