Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Hobbit]

Oh, I agree that managing trade across the border is achievable. But as we discussed, that's only half of the problem. Freedom of movement is a UK red line. If we don't have a hard border between Ireland and N. Ireland then we have an open border for people. I'm not sure how we could overcome that.

The UK can't stop, or won't stop, freedom of movement of people on the Irish border because of the 1921 Common Travel Area agreement. Both the British Government and the Irish government have already acknowledged the longstanding agreement for FOM across the border. The only issue without an agreement is trade, and the UK has consistently said it wants to move to electronic monitoring.

Its the EU and Ireland that has continued to muddy the waters. Hell, Barnier himself said that it was doable late last year then rowed back on it and hasn't mentioned it since.

And a repetitive as it is, if there are electronic solutions already in use elsewhere in the EU why aren't they applicable to the Ni/Ireland border? Just what are the differences between the Norway/Sweden border, the France/Swiss border, the Estonia/Russian border, the Turkish/Bulgarian border and that of NI/Ireland?

The proposal from the UK for the NI/Ireland border is all checks are done electronically, and no check points. The EU isn't willing to accept no check points, unless the Backstop is adopted, and the GFA says no check points. So who is saying no, and is it a reasonable no?

 

[SocketRocket]

Oh, I agree that managing trade across the border is achievable. But as we discussed, that's only half of the problem. Freedom of movement is a UK red line. If we don't have a hard border between Ireland and N. Ireland then we have an open border for people. I'm not sure how we could overcome that.

We had an open border for people in Ireland before the EU was a twinkle in someones eye.

 

[spongebob59]

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1013324069055921&id=657015324686799

Nuts to Little Englanders. Listen to a German

What's it saying ?

 

[IanM]

Sub titles....jolly handy

 

[bluewolf]

The UK can't stop, or won't stop, freedom of movement of people on the Irish border because of the 1921 Common Travel Area agreement. Both the British Government and the Irish government have already acknowledged the longstanding agreement for FOM across the border. The only issue without an agreement is trade, and the UK has consistently said it wants to move to electronic monitoring.

Its the EU and Ireland that has continued to muddy the waters. Hell, Barnier himself said that it was doable late last year then rowed back on it and hasn't mentioned it since.

And a repetitive as it is, if there are electronic solutions already in use elsewhere in the EU why aren't they applicable to the Ni/Ireland border? Just what are the differences between the Norway/Sweden border, the France/Swiss border, the Estonia/Russian border, the Turkish/Bulgarian border and that of NI/Ireland?

The proposal from the UK for the NI/Ireland border is all checks are done electronically, and no check points. The EU isn't willing to accept no check points, unless the Backstop is adopted, and the GFA says no check points. So who is saying no, and is it a reasonable no?

For Irish people. Not for anyone in Ireland. This is the first time that the Republic of Ireland will have an open border with the UK and also FOM with the EU. Anyone from an EU country can travel to Ireland, then cross the border into the UK without any sort of check.

 

[bluewolf]

We had an open border for people in Ireland before the EU was a twinkle in someones eye.

And did Ireland have FOM with the EU then?

 

[spongebob59]

Sub titles....jolly handy

Not if you don't do Facebook 😉

 

[spongebob59]

The Greek fella on QT should have negotiated.

 

[IanM]

Not if you don't do Facebook 😉

Sorry...assumed the link would open. German MP stating they the German economy needs UK trade etc... you know, the stuff no federalist will talk about

 

[Hobbit]

For Irish people. Not for anyone in Ireland. This is the first time that the Republic of Ireland will have an open border with the UK and also FOM with the EU. Anyone from an EU country can travel to Ireland, then cross the border into the UK without any sort of check.

I think you're looking for something new in something that's always been there, or certainly for the last 97 years. Lets just pick a date, say 1930. Someone travels from Paris to Dublin. Once in Dublin they could travel to Belfast without checks.

Whatever the state of how movement took place between Ireland and the rest of Europe was never a part, quite rightly, of UK legislation. An anomaly yes but that's what it was and that's what it will be post-Brexit. Will it be legal? Probably not.

What we don't know yet is will the UK be visa free for holidaying EU citizens? Its been suggested it will be visa free for UK citizens going to the EU, or for a nominal fee. Why wouldn't an EU citizen pay €5 to travel to the UK? Why have the expense of doing it via Dublin rather than pay €5?

Are you looking for a mountain when its just a pimple?

 

[SocketRocket]

And did Ireland have FOM with the EU then?

^^^^^^^^^^

 

[SocketRocket]

The Greek fella on QT should have negotiated.

He didn't get on too well in his own country dealing with the EU.

 

[bluewolf]

I think you're looking for something new in something that's always been there, or certainly for the last 97 years. Lets just pick a date, say 1930. Someone travels from Paris to Dublin. Once in Dublin they could travel to Belfast without checks.

Whatever the state of how movement took place between Ireland and the rest of Europe was never a part, quite rightly, of UK legislation. An anomaly yes but that's what it was and that's what it will be post-Brexit. Will it be legal? Probably not.

What we don't know yet is will the UK be visa free for holidaying EU citizens? Its been suggested it will be visa free for UK citizens going to the EU, or for a nominal fee. Why wouldn't an EU citizen pay €5 to travel to the UK? Why have the expense of doing it via Dublin rather than pay €5?

Are you looking for a mountain when its just a pimple?

Nope. For someone to travel from Paris to Dublin in 1930, they'd have to show a passport. Now they don't. Because they have FOM. Therefore, no hard border equals FOM into the UK.

The Visa issue is a red herring. It's not a license to cross borders.

Ok, a quick question. If the answer is as simple as you and SR think it is. Then why is absolutely no one talking about it? Do the ERG not read this forum?

 

[bluewolf]

^^^^^^^^^^

^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[drdel]

The EU has told Ireland that border checks must take place if there is 'no deal'. Ireland has said that it would use checks at factories etc in conjunction with technology rather than a hard border.

It's strange that when the EU and Ireland wants to use electronic gateways that's Ok, but when it was suggested by the UK in Sept 18 and again in Feb 19 it did not exist

 

[SocketRocket]

Nope. For someone to travel from Paris to Dublin in 1930, they'd have to show a passport. Now they don't. Because they have FOM. Therefore, no hard border equals FOM into the UK.

The Visa issue is a red herring. It's not a license to cross borders.

Ok, a quick question. If the answer is as simple as you and SR think it is. Then why is absolutely no one talking about it? Do the ERG not read this forum?

No one is suggesting there is a problem, that's why they're not discussing it. All they are concerned about is goods movement.
If someone wanted to come here from Paris they get a visitors visa, if they dont they will be an illegal immigrant and open to arrest and deportation. As previously explained, you are looking for problems.

 

[drdel]

Last time I looked at a holiday booking there were a vast range to strange places like Turkey, Egypt, Africa, USA and even weird places like Brazil. But heck they are not in the EU so we'll never be allowed to travel there from the UK because we may need to show our passport and have a visa!!!

We really are becoming rather silly.

Brexit is a BIG thing to politicians but to global businesses there are much bigger issues and thank goodness they and the global Finance sector is not so paranoid.

 

[bluewolf]

No one is suggesting there is a problem, that's why they're not discussing it. All they are concerned about is goods movement.
If someone wanted to come here from Paris they get a visitors visa, if they dont they will be an illegal immigrant and open to arrest and deportation. As previously explained, you are looking for problems.

No im not. I'm highlighting them. You're ignoring them as it suits your viewpoint.
As for the comment about no one talking about the Irish border issue, sorry but that's laughable. The current predicament is entirely down to this. The ERG have done nothing but talk about the backstop. They've criticised it endlessly without ever suggesting an alternative. Why is that?

 

[bluewolf]

Last time I looked at a holiday booking there were a vast range to strange places like Turkey, Egypt, Africa, USA and even weird places like Brazil. But heck they are not in the EU so we'll never be allowed to travel there from the UK because we may need to show our passport and have a visa!!!

We really are becoming rather silly.

Brexit is a BIG thing to politicians but to global businesses there are much bigger issues and thank goodness they and the global Finance sector is not so paranoid.

What has that first paragraph got to do with the current discussion? I've been to most of those places. Try getting out of the airport without a passport.
Will there need to be a hard border between Ireland and N Ireland?

 

[Hobbit]

Nope. For someone to travel from Paris to Dublin in 1930, they'd have to show a passport. Now they don't. Because they have FOM. Therefore, no hard border equals FOM into the UK.

The Visa issue is a red herring. It's not a license to cross borders.

Ok, a quick question. If the answer is as simple as you and SR think it is. Then why is absolutely no one talking about it? Do the ERG not read this forum?

It doesn’t matter how they got to Ireland 80 years ago or next year. They had FOM 80 years ago because of the CTA. It was an anomaly then and it will be in the future. The issue we’re discussing was/is the crossing of the Irish border. What has getting from Paris to Dublin got to do with the onward travel across the Irish border?

Ireland always was the backdoor in the U.K.

But just because they can do it doesn’t make it legal, and nor does it constitute FOM.

Sometime soon I could be driving around Spain on a U.K. licence. Physically I can do it but it will be illegal unless I get a Spanish licence.