Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Slime]

I haven't won as I think we are all losing at the moment. However you have hit the nail on the head in that the problem is mostly not the EU but the politicians we elect in this country. The EU is a convenient scapegoat.

They are all to blame, they are all tossers of the highest order.
They are doing what ever they have to do to cause maximum chaos in order to further their own agendas.

Sums up exactly were the responsibility for this mess lies.

No it doesn't.
It's easy to point the finger at TM because she is the current MP, but do you really think she has any control of how the other MPs behave and do you really believe the other MPs have tried to find a resolution to the Brexit problem?

 

[Hacker Khan]

As a slightly tongue in cheek aside.. I was thinking earlier about how opinions are formed and then enforced.

Personally, my opinions start as an instinct, an instinct based on many years of experience. I then look around to see exactly who agrees with this opinion. If I like and respect those who agree with my hard pondered opinion, then I become emboldened by its validity. I become more sure that I'm right and that those who disagree must be seeing something that I'm not. I then question my opinion. I pressure test it constantly, tweaking it as I go along.. All of this time, I'm still comparing it to the opinions of others I respect and trust..

Based on all this, I'm struggling to see how anyone that holds the same opinion as that Intelligence vacuum, Marc Francois can possibly go to bed at night without questioning everything that they've fought hard to formulate into one coherent opinion.. I'm bewildered.

I think for some people (on both sides) it becomes a bit 'cult like' where they completely lose the ability to question their beliefs and have a utterly blinkered view on things and can not accept there is any flaw or any flip side to the coin. I know it may seem like a few on here are but I'd say on here that on the whole most leavers accept that the UK government is to blame in some way for the current situation and most remainers agree that the EU is not perfect and ideally does need reforming, so there is some common ground. But some can not counter any logic if it does not 100% go against their belief that the EU is the devil or the EU is narnia. As I said, a bit cult like.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

It's easy to point the finger at TM because she is the current MP, but do you really think she has any control of how the other MPs behave and do you really believe the other MPs have tried to find a resolution to the Brexit problem?

Did you watch the link?
Her own Cabinet are unhappy, the only way she has left to get her deal done is for her to offer her resignation!

Were was/is the finger pointed when a different leader with the exact same personnel gets different results? (Think Man Utd)

It is documented she listened to no one and did her way for 2 years and is still not listening.

If she’d got a deal people were happy with she’d of won the first vote.

 

[Mudball]

brutal blog from Politics.co.uk
https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/03/27/the-obscene-moral-spectacle-of-theresa-may-s-resignation

I am sure some will agree others may not.. <other blogs are available>

 

[Slime]

Did you watch the link?
Her own Cabinet are unhappy, the only way she has left to get her deal done is for her to offer her resignation!

Were was/is the finger pointed when a different leader with the exact same personnel gets different results? (Think Man Utd)

It is documented she listened to no one and did her way for 2 years and is still not listening.

If she’d got a deal people were happy with she’d of won the first vote.

To have got a deal that would have won her a vote was/is just not possible.
Some want to remain, some want her deal, some want a softer Brexit, some want a harder Brexit, some want a no deal Brexit and most would vote against her just out of principle and/or spite.
How could she ever win?
Exactly ................................ she couldn't.

 

[Hacker Khan]

brutal blog from Politics.co.uk
https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/03/27/the-obscene-moral-spectacle-of-theresa-may-s-resignation

I am sure some will agree others may not.. <other blogs are available>

I saw this this morning and sniggered a bit. I particularity liked

And yet here we all are, locked into their swirling psychological horror story, trapped in this dreadful room with them, our national fate dependant on what these cynical, self-interested, mendacious, emotionally incontinent, ideologically deranged buffoons happen to decide at any given moment. Not one person in this rabble believes a single thing they are saying. It is a godawful mixture of religious zeal, personal ambition and tribal lunacy.

I'd argue he's just about hit the nail on the head. Others opinions are available.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

To have got a deal that would have won her a vote was/is just not possible.
Some want to remain, some want her deal, some want a softer Brexit, some want a harder Brexit, some want a no deal Brexit and most would vote against her just out of principle and/or spite.
How could she ever win?
Exactly ................................ she couldn't.

Maybe by listening or talking to others before it was too late, she had no need to call a GE when she did.
How many Cabinet Ministers has she lost during her tenure etc, why did she pull the trigger on Art 50 when she did etc etc.
She is the PM, the PM of the Government is ultimately responsible for the actions of their Government(regardless of Party).

 

[Foxholer]

Thought Hobbit gave an example of this some time back?

He did. Estonia-Russia. But that example appears to have been a bit 'ambitiously described'. While there are technology based controls, it isn't exactly a 'soft' border.And, in fact, Estonia has requested funding from the EU for the 197Milliobn Euro cost of a proposed Fence!

 

[SocketRocket]

[

Which is 'none of the above'! So does that mean we don't trade?!

We may not 'do most of our trade' with the EU. But we 'do trade most' with the EU!

Isn't language great!

Oh and according to numbers I've seen (at least for 2017)...We DO (or DID) do most of our trade with the EU!! Total Trade was 1083Bn of which 615Bn was with the EU!

Dont know where you get your info from. Take a look at this link.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7851
Also worth a mention we have a very big trade deficit with the EU while running a surplus with the rest of the world.

 

[bluewolf]

You obviously don't do sarcasm....

Ah, sarcasm's a hard thing to comprehend on a Forum.. My apologies...

 

[ColchesterFC]

Maybe by listening or talking to others before it was too late, she had no need to call a GE when she did.
How many Cabinet Ministers has she lost during her tenure etc, why did she pull the trigger on Art 50 when she did etc etc.
She is the PM, the PM of the Government is ultimately responsible for the actions of their Government(regardless of Party).

To be fair Paul that's probably the one area where she isn't solely to blame. Parliament voted to trigger Article 50 so they all share the blame for that one.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

To be fair Paul that's probably the one area where she isn't solely to blame. Parliament voted to trigger Article 50 so they all share the blame for that one.

Who brought it before Parliament?
The choice of when to trigger Article 50 was the most important step of the process entirely under Britain’s control.

https://amp.businessinsider.com/theresa-may-strategic-error-triggering-article-50-2017-10

 

[SocketRocket]

To be fair Paul that's probably the one area where she isn't solely to blame. Parliament voted to trigger Article 50 so they all share the blame for that one.

Thinking back I believe she was being castigated for taking a year to activate article 50.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Who brought it before Parliament?
The choice of when to trigger Article 50 was the most important step of the process entirely under Britain’s control.

https://amp.businessinsider.com/theresa-may-strategic-error-triggering-article-50-2017-10

May brought it before parliament but it was parliament that chose to trigger it. If they didn't want to trigger it as it was the wrong time then they could/should have voted against it. They voted with a majority of 384 to trigger Article 50 (498 v 114).

I blame Gina Miller.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Sums up exactly were the responsibility for this mess lies.

So why haven't Cabinet, the Tory party or MP's generally invoked a process to get rid of her?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Let’s give the CEO of Next his full title in the interests of fairness and balance.
Simon Adam Wolfson, Baron Wolfson of Aspley Guise is a British businessman and currently chief executive of the clothing retailer Next plc and a Conservative life peer. He is the son of former Next chairman David Wolfson, Baron Wolfson of Sunningdale, also a Conservative life peer.

I know him as Wolfie . The rest is a bit too much of a mouthful.

 

[Foxholer]

[

Dont know where you get your info from. Take a look at this link.

https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7851
Also worth a mention we have a very big trade deficit with the EU while running a surplus with the rest of the world.

Yep! That link was one of the sources - for the 615Bn - 274 + 341 = 615Bn.

But the Total for Whole World (see this link https://globaledge.msu.edu/countries/united-kingdom/tradestats) was 1083Bn - so EU was more than 50% - in 2017!

Do you agree?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

So why haven't Cabinet, the Tory party or MP's generally invoked a process to get rid of her?

Stacks of the cabinet have already resigned, the Cons EGR attempted to kick her out but lost, the Opposition tabled a vote of no confidence but all of the Cons who tried to remove her as leader bottled it and she won.

Largely self interest from the Conservative party. They acknowledge a change of leader is likely to lead to a general election, it doesn't have to but is probably needed to unlock this mess, and too many of them know they could lose their seats after the shambles this has been. They don't want May but they do want to keep being MP's.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

May brought it before parliament but it was parliament that chose to trigger it. If they didn't want to trigger it as it was the wrong time then they could/should have voted against it. They voted with a majority of 384 to trigger Article 50 (498 v 114).

I blame Gina Miller.

Part of her promise was to call it by end of March 17 and without Gina Miller she’d of proceeded with it.

 

[SocketRocket]

Yep! That link was one of the sources - for the 615Bn - 274 + 341 = 615Bn.

But the Total for Whole World (see this link https://globaledge.msu.edu/countries/united-kingdom/tradestats) was 1083Bn - so EU was more than 50% - in 2017!

Do you agree?

No
I am talking about how much we sell to other countries, not how much we buy off them. We run a trade deficit with the EU but have a surplus with the test of the world.
The discussion I was having was in respect to someone saying we sold more to the EU than anywhere else.