Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[jp5]

Should have had the indicative votes 3 years ago, but better late than never.

Public vote on final deal and customs union options are viable, no deal and EEA/EFTA off the table (surprisingly).

 

[oxymoron]

What is the point of having a backbone when all it does is place yourself in a dreadfully weak bargaining position.
Sounds a bit Monty Pythonish to me.
The other day we had Liam Fox talking up a 'new' trading deal with Iceland [do more folk work for the food company than live in the country?]
It was a poorer version of the one we already had within the EU but hey ho, it's new.

If we had shown some backbone earlier we would not be in this situation , can you please clarify what you mean by "Monty Pythonish "?

 

[Crazyface]

Not sure, trying to keep a track of some of your posts is like trying to catch a box of frogs.

Sorry just letting off steam. it's either that or cry.

 

[Crazyface]

Lets have a English referendum to see if WE want to stay in the UK. now THAT would be interesting.

 

[spongebob59]

good read :

https://www.politico.eu/article/how-uk-lost-brexit-eu-negotiation/

 

[User62651]

There is no answer which is exactly what the majority of Parliament wants. Stuck with staying and a very interesting time the next time the population are asked to vote on anything.

If there's no answer then we're in limbo, not stuck with staying as the option to revoke article 50 and stay was soundly defeated too yesterday as was the peoples referendum option which did better but still lost. I'm not optimisitic of remaining in the EU at all now. If parliament wanted to stay they could have indicated that yesterday, they didn't. All MPs whipped to vote certain ways perhaps?

It's unbelievable really that a sitting Prime Minister's last hurrah is offering her head to try and get sufficient backing (from her own party MPs) for a government policy to get voted through. Interested to see how the Tories go once this is resolved.


On a side note I watched a little footage of the 2012 London Olympics the other night on youtube, recall the national pride of the time, despite austerity it really brought the UK together, felt great to be British that summer. Seems an age ago now. Sad.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

It wasn't. It was March 29th, TOMORROW. We had to go back to the EU to ask for an extension to that coz our MP's are crup. The EU said ok but only to April 12th IF we agreed to a deal (May's deal as it's the only one on the table). We didn't, last night, so the EU SHOULD say ok then you're out. But they won't, as we all know.

No as I said after we agreed an extension 29th was off the table once we voted it through

Which was last night

Can’t leave tomorrow now

 

[Hacker Khan]

Lets have a English referendum to see if WE want to stay in the UK. now THAT would be interesting.

Is that English as in live in England or English as in born in England? And will the referendum only be open to Little Englanders or can anyone else vote?

 

[Hacker Khan]

If there's no answer then we're in limbo, not stuck with staying as the option to revoke article 50 and stay was soundly defeated too yesterday as was the peoples referendum option which did better but still lost. I'm not optimisitic of remaining in the EU at all now. If parliament wanted to stay they could have indicated that yesterday, they didn't. All MPs whipped to vote certain ways perhaps?

It's unbelievable really that a sitting Prime Minister's last hurrah is offering her head to try and get sufficient backing (from her own party MPs) for a government policy to get voted through. Interested to see how the Tories go once this is resolved.


On a side note I watched a little footage of the 2012 London Olympics the other night on youtube, recall the national pride of the time, despite austerity it really brought the UK together, felt great to be British that summer. Seems an age ago now. Sad.

Totally agree. You get people accusing remainers of not believing in the UK or doing the UK down as we don't want a hard Brexit. But I always think that I was incredibly proud of the UK during that summer, it showed the best of the UK to the world, how we can be world beaters in many areas. And since then we've just been sliding back into intolerance and infighting, culminating in us being a national embarrassment on many levels. Give my Olympic Britain and the message it portrayed to the world over Brexit Britain any day of the week.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

good read :

https://www.politico.eu/article/how-uk-lost-brexit-eu-negotiation/

Very interesting, quite an insight.

 

[bluewolf]

Don't you think that its the bending over and being supplicant has achieved the weak position we're in at the negotiating table?

I genuinely believe, and stated regularly at the time, that there was never going to be a Deal that would please anyone. Both sides had their own red lines and couldn't budge from them. If it was obvious to me then I can't see how it wasn't obvious to everyone really.

Brexit should've always been sold as a Remain/No Deal decision. Those people who claimed a Deal would be easy are responsible for this entire mess. If we'd been planning for a No Deal since the start then we'd be in a far better place than we currently are.

So, to answer you're question. No, I don't think that being supplicant was the problem. I think that being lied to by the Brexiteers and having unrealistic expectations was the problem. And that's solely a U.K. problem. Not a EU one.

 

[Foxholer]

If May can't get her deal back and approved what's the alternative with Brexit? Arlene Foster seems immovable on the terms of the May draft WA too.

Keep going on as we are? General Election? Or go for the least unpopular of the options in Commons?

Before you say 'leave now with No Deal', that came in a lowly 6th of 8 backed options and second most opposed (400 against) yesterday so clearly doesn't have the legs to progress. Seems Boris and JRM have reluctantly accepted that, even with alterior motives perhaps.


Something has to give.

BUT Seems like May's deal is back as the only item on the Brexit agenda again. I expect just somehow that will be fudged through in the end.

'No Deal' will AUTOMATICALLY apply on 12 April if a deal is not agreed!

 

[drdel]

We keep banging on and the EU keep asking about what we want. That by definition is a future state. We either want to stay in EU or we don't. Once the out date is set then all t'other stuff about customs union etc can be on the table. Until then it's just a nut rolling exercise by MPs.

 

[Hobbit]

I genuinely believe, and stated regularly at the time, that there was never going to be a Deal that would please anyone. Both sides had their own red lines and couldn't budge from them. If it was obvious to me then I can't see how it wasn't obvious to everyone really.

Brexit should've always been sold as a Remain/No Deal decision. Those people who claimed a Deal would be easy are responsible for this entire mess. If we'd been planning for a No Deal since the start then we'd be in a far better place than we currently are.

So, to answer you're question. No, I don't think that being supplicant was the problem. I think that being lied to by the Brexiteers and having unrealistic expectations was the problem. And that's solely a U.K. problem. Not a EU one.

Can I agree and disagree with you?

Cameron, very clearly, sold Leave as leaving the customs union and leaving the single market. He made a big play on it during several speeches, well televised and certainly going the rounds of social media since.

I believe he defined Leave very well, and that most Leavers understood what Leave would be based on what Cameron had said. Whether they understood the consequences... I think that's a lot harder to believe because people like Osbourne clearly played the Project Fear card way too far and too loudly. And having Obama say his piece absolutely had a negative effect on the Remain campaign.

However, to look at the second part of your post, and being simplistic about it. Having a negotiating line that has continually tried to find compromises to ensure a (May) deal has seen the negotiating team bend over and take one yet receive very little in return. The EU have, to a large extent, been very firm on their founding principles - no problem with that at all. How close is the UK to May's red lines now? If you read May's deal you will see how far they've wobbled in many areas.

 

[funkycoldmedina]

I'd argue our weak position is just about entirely down to the fact that we have not had an unified negotiating position ourselves. The EU are just constantly asking 'What do you want'? All we ever give them are red lines, deals that don't get passed, indicative votes that no majority goes for.

I am sure there are some MPs who think that the EU will cave in as they need us more than we need them, German car manufacturers blah blah blah. And I am sure there are a few who want a no deal to run a massive economic experiment involving ultra market forces, very low taxation, that they will economically benefit from massively if it goes well but will be completely insulated from if, and in my opinion probably when it does not. But keeping a position on the table that essentially says both sides will be considerably worse off is probably not going to work any more. It's hardly forging a brave path in an exciting new world.

I can't give this summary too many likes. We have been too intransigent in our negotiating position both across the house and with the EU. There's also a good chunk of the ERG who have ideological pretensions far beyond the EU and leaving with a No Deal makes the path a lot smoother for them. A very, very dangerous experiment of which they're insulated from if it fails

 

[Crazyface]

good read :

https://www.politico.eu/article/how-uk-lost-brexit-eu-negotiation/

Not finished yet but picked this out

"Third, Dublin had persuaded the EU as early as April 2017 to confirm that should Northern Ireland ever reunify with the Republic it would automatically become a member of the EU."

Seeing as NI voted to stay in, maybe this is what they want. Or is it they just want EVERYTHING?

 

[bluewolf]

Can I agree and disagree with you?

Cameron, very clearly, sold Leave as leaving the customs union and leaving the single market. He made a big play on it during several speeches, well televised and certainly going the rounds of social media since.

I believe he defined Leave very well, and that most Leavers understood what Leave would be based on what Cameron had said. Whether they understood the consequences... I think that's a lot harder to believe because people like Osbourne clearly played the Project Fear card way too far and too loudly. And having Obama say his piece absolutely had a negative effect on the Remain campaign.

However, to look at the second part of your post, and being simplistic about it. Having a negotiating line that has continually tried to find compromises to ensure a (May) deal has seen the negotiating team bend over and take one yet receive very little in return. The EU have, to a large extent, been very firm on their founding principles - no problem with that at all. How close is the UK to May's red lines now? If you read May's deal you will see how far they've wobbled in many areas.

He did, but the vast majority of talk before the referendum was that we'd negotiate a Deal. That we'd hold all the cards. That it'd be the easiest Deal in history. People believed it. They wanted to believe it. If you'd sold the line "We'll leave without a Deal", the Referendum would've probably had a very different result.
The population was lied to. By Farage, Johnson, Gove, Davies, Hannan etc. They weee sold a great Deal that could never be negotiated. Then we packed off TM like a sacrificial lamb to fail miserably. Allowing the above chancers to step back in and blame someone else after it has inevitably all failed.
I can lay blame on both sides, but the sh1tsh0w we're currently locked I. Has only one set of instigators. And they were all hard Leavers.

 

[IanM]

I see the BBC were in Strasbourg today, not Brussels.... What a joke. Expensive joke.

(Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) convene in Strasbourg for one week every month and in Brussels for the remainder. The monthly upheaval costs the bloc114 million euros ($124 million) a year, EU auditors say.3 Dec 2017 (nice for the bloke's uncle who has the lorry contract)

We voted to Leave, lets leave eh?

This mess is too orchastrated to be buffoonery.

 

[Crazyface]

'No Deal' will AUTOMATICALLY apply on 12 April if a deal is not agreed!

No it won't....

• Option 2: If it does not approve the deal, the EU will offer a shorter extension until April 12.
• If it rejects the deal and takes the shorter extension, it can then decide whether to seek a much longer delay and vote in the European elections or leave on April 12 without a deal.

See the EU have said we can have a longer extension until we see the light / give it all up and just paying money to them and give up all our rights to do what we want. It there in balck and white (between the lines).

 

[Crazyface]

I see the BBC were in Strasbourg today, not Brussels.... What a joke. Expensive joke.

(Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) convene in Strasbourg for one week every month and in Brussels for the remainder. The monthly upheaval costs the bloc114 million euros ($124 million) a year, EU auditors say.3 Dec 2017 (nice for the bloke's uncle who has the lorry contract)

We voted to Leave, lets leave eh?

This mess is too orchastrated to be buffoonery.

Wasting public money from around the EU whilst people live on streets and use food banks. Surely this cannot be right. For God's sake why can people not see this!!!!!