Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Old Skier]

No, because EU membership allowed you to have a lot of autonomy and control of your own domestic economy whilst also enjoying the benefits of easy trading relationships with 27 other countries. Allegedly.

And the other 27 countries also had these benefits as well so why are many of them having failed economies.

 

[SocketRocket]

Parliament voted in favour of the referendum.
They voted in favour of invoking article 50.
They stood on platforms in a general election to respect the outcome of the referendum.

What kind of Democrats are they to frustrate the outcome of the referendum now.

All this balderdash about people understanding more now as a reason for another referendum are weasel words and a sad reflection of how spineless many have become.

If anyone accuses me of finger pointing I would like to confirm they are indeed correct.

 

[robinthehood]

You really are a silly boy, he holds more respect on this forum than you ever could.

Is there a shrug emoji?

 

[Slime]

You missed also a dab hand at ctrl+c and ctrl+v

Sometimes you should think before you post, you do yourself no favours at times.

 

[robinthehood]

Sometimes you should think before you post, you do yourself no favours at times.

Engage!
Make it so.

 

[Foxholer]

No it is not. Saying every remainer can't accept the result is like saying every leaver is a think gammon racist. I am sure there are some on both sides, but it is a lot more nuanced than that. There are many who voted remain who would like us to have a withdrawal agreement and leave with the least possible damage. I would argue there are many more who voted remain who are against a no deal then there are who want a second referendum.

And if the PM is just going to say it's her deal with all the reds lines it entails which does not have the support of parliament or no deal then, in a way that will strengthen the second referendum campaign. And leavers who want a no deal who just say remainers can't accept the result will encourage that as well.

This is no place to talking good sense!

 

[Foxholer]

Its a tough one to reconcile. How do you appease the 3.xxx that signed a petition and the 100,000's of thousands marchers? You could say, "ok we'll do it your way."

But what about the 17.xx million that voted Leave? Do you give way to 3.xxx million in favour of 17.xx million?

I don't know what the right answer is but doing nothing isn't it.

Actually (virtually) doing nothing - actually carrying on in spite of the minority, but noisy, opposition - is exactly what should be happening!

 

[Foxholer]

Quite a lot of Scots live around and in London.

And I know several that are 'bludging' off the wealth that that part of the world generates!

FWIW, my 'heritage' is Scottish (and German from a previous generation) but I'm no bludger!

As far as I can recall, most of Doon's career was spent harvesting funds in England; but now that's over, he wants the (mythical imo) benefits of 'independence' for Scotland! Sorry, but, imo, that's a blatant attempt to 'have your cake and eat it too'!

 

[Foxholer]

And the other 27 countries also had these benefits as well so why are many of them having failed economies.

Because - as HK satatd 'EU membership allowed you to have a lot of autonomy and control of your own domestic economy whilst also enjoying the benefits....'

 

[BubbaP]

And there are millions that wanted to Leave. They won the vote that they were told would be honoured.

There is a difference between losing and the connotations you’re applying to being a loser. In that respect you’re looking for something that isn’t there.

Both sides are pointing fingers. Right from Day 1 many Remainers have squealed unfair, too close, compromise. Leavers have shouted out means out, and have become increasingly frustrated by a Remain PM selling them short.

I don’t think Leave will happen at all. In my opinion, on such a close vote, which ever party takes the U.K. out of the EU risks losing a shed load of Remain voters. I’ll put money on it not happening without a second referendum, which Remain will win 60/40. And the the Tories will save face by saying the people decided.

I agree with those saying that this issue drives high emotions for many on both sides of the argument, and that whatever happens over next few months the wounds will not heal for a long time.

Like you I feel like the wind is blowing towards a 2nd ref. I think how hard it actually would be to leave is still subjective, but our elected representatives have definitely made it appear hard. Along with a high proportion of people with tv time being obsessed with "crashing" & "cliff edges" I also think a 2nd ref would move to the remain side.

The stewards enquiry into 1st ref called out the remain campaign not spending enough time articulating the benefits of being in the EU. I am not sure too much has changed since but maybe that will come.
I think in the immediate aftermath the amount of lazy comments and journalism placing labels on leave voters set the tone for how the debate has gone since which was a shame.

Anyway unless LP has a time machine in his shed, it's happened and the country can't go back.
As the old saying goes;
S**t happens, you can't change but you can decide how you deal with it.

Whatever transpires, as a country we need to.

 

[drdel]

If we must hold another vote so be it as long as it is fairly constructed and unbiased.

However if we stay in the EU be prepared to be well and truly shafted - even more than we have been. Remember a member's contribution is based on economic performance and the UK is outperforming the others and with Germany sliding into recession plus the EU debt is out of control and unsustainable and Brussels want to raise its budget.

You can bet the media will just be UK centric.

 

[Foxholer]

I agree with those saying that this issue drives high emotions for many on both sides of the argument, and that whatever happens over next few months the wounds will not heal for a long time.

Like you I feel like the wind is blowing towards a 2nd ref. I think how hard it actually would be to leave is still subjective, but our elected representatives have definitely made it appear hard. Along with a high proportion of people with tv time being obsessed with "crashing" & "cliff edges" I also think a 2nd ref would move to the remain side.

The stewards enquiry into 1st ref called out the remain campaign not spending enough time articulating the benefits of being in the EU. I am not sure too much has changed since but maybe that will come.
I think in the immediate aftermath the amount of lazy comments and journalism placing labels on leave voters set the tone for how the debate has gone since which was a shame.

Anyway unless LP has a time machine in his shed, it's happened and the country can't go back.
As the old saying goes;
S**t happens, you can't change but you can decide how you deal with it.

Whatever transpires, as a country we need to.

IMO, what has really happened was that while Leave campaigners were easily able to 'advertise' the 'disadvantages' of being a (contributing) member and the 'advantages of leaving, the Remain campaign struggled to convince the public that the benefits of membership exceeded those disadvantages.

Now that the actual crunch has come, the 'campaign' to Remain has become more agressive, even though it might still be in a minority. Had it done so before the referendum, I'm pretty sure the result would have been different - t was that close. But that's no t a compelling reason, at least imo, to demand another referendum!

Basically, they had their chance and didn't get their message across well enough! So take the hit and move on! It's not goingf to be the disaster Remain predict, though there will be some short term pain - and opportunities!

 

[Foxholer]

If we must hold another vote so be it as long as it is fairly constructed and unbiased.

However if we stay in the EU be prepared to be well and truly shafted - even more than we have been. Remember a member's contribution is based on economic performance and the UK is outperforming the others and with Germany sliding into recession plus the EU debt is out of control and unsustainable and Brussels want to raise its budget.

You can bet the media will just be UK centric.

Seems depressingly negative!

 

[drdel]

Seems depressingly negative!

Yup because I think it will be a really bad move to remain in a group that most international financial analysts believe is on borrowed time. Kept afloat by debt.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

IMO, what has really happened was that while Leave campaigners were easily able to 'advertise' the 'disadvantages' of being a (contributing) member and the 'advantages of leaving, the Remain campaign struggled to convince the public that the benefits of membership exceeded those disadvantages.

Now that the actual crunch has come, the 'campaign' to Remain has become more agressive, even though it might still be in a minority. Had it done so before the referendum, I'm pretty sure the result would have been different - t was that close. But that's no t a compelling reason, at least imo, to demand another referendum!

Basically, they had their chance and didn't get their message across well enough! So take the hit and move on! It's not goingf to be the disaster Remain predict, though there will be some short term pain - and opportunities!

Did you watch brexit an uncivil war? Showing how the leave campaign used a technique not used before with targeted online campaigning which was just an experiment by a company to see if it could actually work? Our system reduced to a company experimenting? They were happy for either side to use this tech to have 5 million or so votes normally not targeted during a campaign just to see if it would work

Give it a watch it’s a real eye opener[/QUOTE]

 

[drdel]

Did you watch brexit an uncivil war? Showing how the leave campaign used a technique not used before with targeted online campaigning which was just an experiment by a company to see if it could actually work? Our system reduced to a company experimenting? They were happy for either side to use this tech to have 5 million or so votes normally not targeted during a campaign just to see if it would work

Give it a watch it’s a real eye opener

[/QUOTE]

Brexit overload - I'm thinking the PGA Valspar might be more fun to watch.....

 

[Blue in Munich]

Did you watch brexit an uncivil war? Showing how the leave campaign used a technique not used before with targeted online campaigning which was just an experiment by a company to see if it could actually work? Our system reduced to a company experimenting? They were happy for either side to use this tech to have 5 million or so votes normally not targeted during a campaign just to see if it would work

Give it a watch it’s a real eye opener

[/QUOTE]

This has been done to death on here before. Huge numbers of people never saw these adverts or were not influenced by them. It’s a non story unless you’re a straw grabbing remainer.

 

[Blue in Munich]

I’m actually quite taken by the idea of a second referendum; about 40 years after we implement the result of the first one.

 

[Deleted member 21784]

This has been done to death on here before. Huge numbers of people never saw these adverts or were not influenced by them. It’s a non story unless you’re a straw grabbing remainer.

5 million in the scheme of the country wouldn’t be considered a lot but it’s enough

It’s not straw grabbing. It’s a fact that it was an underhand expierement by a company to test a system

 

[Jamesbrown]

Did you watch brexit an uncivil war? Showing how the leave campaign used a technique not used before with targeted online campaigning which was just an experiment by a company to see if it could actually work? Our system reduced to a company experimenting? They were happy for either side to use this tech to have 5 million or so votes normally not targeted during a campaign just to see if it would work

Give it a watch it’s a real eye opener

[/QUOTE]

Did the people make their brexit decision based on campaigns, leaflets through the door, writing on a bus and newspaper/MSM?

Didn’t people make up their own mind? It’d be a real eye opener if people voted based on biased information from media sources.