Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Doon frae Troon]

The difference is too small .. this is why there is an issue.

I have said that from the day after the vote.

Leave leader Nigel Farage also said that if the vote was close it would not be the end of it.
Probably one of his more savvy sayings even if it was when he was blissfully unaware that Leave was winning.

 

[Hobbit]

Played golf today with a couple of guys from Sweden, one of which I've played with several times before. After the round one of them showed me a couple of cartoons in a respectable Swedish newspaper depicting the major players from Brexit and the govt along with an article below.

Brexit and the govt is a huge joke to them, not a little joke, a huge joke. The article mirrored the cartoons, talking about clowns and a circus and sadly indefensible.

 

[drdel]

Just to add to the circus - I see reports that Uri Geller, he of the spoon bending deception, is going to influence the PM by telepathy !!!

 

[Mudball]

Now the lady who started the petition gets death threat. While this is not representative of the Leaver voter, this is getting silly

Govt as expected ignoring the thousands who are marching and the millions who petitioned

 

[ColchesterFC]

Now the lady who started the petition gets death threat. While this is not representative of the Leaver voter, this is getting silly

Govt as expected ignoring the thousands who are marching and the millions who petitioned

Or at least has claimed that she has received death threats. All of them conveniently over the phone so no evidence or proof of them being made.

Also allegations about some posts she has made on Facebook where she has discussed getting a gun and shooting Theresa May. Her response was that she had no memory of the posts and that they must be photoshopped.

 

[harpo_72]

Or at least has claimed that she has received death threats. All of them conveniently over the phone so no evidence or proof of them being made.

Also allegations about some posts she has made on Facebook where she has discussed getting a gun and shooting Theresa May. Her response was that she had no memory of the posts and that they must be photoshopped.

Must be those Russians again ... if it wasn’t for the internet we wouldn’t have their pesky meddling 😎

 

[drdel]

Now the lady who started the petition gets death threat. While this is not representative of the Leaver voter, this is getting silly

Govt as expected ignoring the thousands who are marching and the millions who petitioned

I'd be interested to know what you'd expect any government to do.

Macron has tried to appease French demonstrators and that's got him nowhere. All it achieves is to generate even more 'marches' and anarchy soon prevails as any minority group decides that rather than using democratic systems they'll just protest and get their way.

 

[Foxholer]

They also shouldn’t be rushed into or blackmailed into just any deal.
Now we are in this mess we need to stand back and do it properly, and that to me is to either a no deal and we negotiate from fresh or Parliament agrees to talk to each other and keeps talking until we get a deal the majority support.

Well, the latter choice 'ain't gonna happen' however much time is allocated!

And the 'rushed/blackmailed' approach was, imo, entirely the EU's planned approach! Though 'simply intransigent' would be a better description imo. Negotiating afresh was always likely after their initial statements that the 'deal' was solely about establishing borders. There was nothing 'deal' related that wasn't about that. Everything about subsequent 'relationship' was deferred until 'deal' was ratified!

I'm certain many, if not most, of UK folk eligible to vote actually believe that a 'deal' of some sort - that includes an ongoing relationship -has been agreed. But the only thing that has been agreed - and still not ratified by Parliament (actually The Commons! The Lords would likely have shown much better 'tact' imo) - has been the Withdrawal Agreement - as required by Article 50, so not surprising to me! There is still an enormous amount of work to be done, fortunately by Civil Servants whose role is to quietly do exactly that, as opposed to MPs whose particular 'skills' are totally unrelated to negotiating the likes of Trade deals, synchronisation of Standards etc!

Oh and Btw. We were 'in this mess' as soon as the referendum result was announced - or, perhaps, even as soon as the referendum was called!

 

[Fade and Die]

The difference is too small .. this is why there is an issue.

Some of the votes the week before last in parliament were only carried by a few votes, in one case the majority was just 2!
Guess what though? No one said “oh it’s too tight and some people might have changed their mind, let’s have another go” the result was accepted, as it should be in a democracy. The actions the remainers want to carry out would not be out of place in a banana republic.

 

[Foxholer]

And all the referendum needed was for people with absolutely no knowledge of the subject or it's implications to put their cross on a piece of paper and make one of the most important decisions this nation has ever made in the last few decades. You can desperately try and reduce any event's significance if you want to use clever wordplay.

That's 'democracy' for you!

And for the third time, not all remainers want a second referendum!! Is that so difficult a concept to grasp?

I can 100% agree with that!
Those that do are, imo, trying to hi-jack 'democracy'! But, in a democracy, that's their right!

 

[Foxholer]

...The actions the remainers want to carry out would not be out of place in a banana republic.

No! A 'banana republic' would have been far more focused on its 'single product'! UK as a 'complete' nation has a vast array of aspects to manage!

 

[drdel]

I'm a bit intrigued by the practicalities of the numerous suggestions...

Indicative Votes - what are the options that have not been the subject of Amendments/
How are the options to be ranked, or order of voting. Perhaps it just a menu !!
Will the EU accept the 'Options'

A second referendum is time consuming and the questions are very problematic (unless you want to stitch up the outcome!)

The idea we can replace the PM but it will change next to beggar all. The 'executive powers' of government have been taken away by Miller's case. MP's have undermined the negotiations via Twitter and silly amendments so its been convenient to blame the PM. BUT a change in personality will not change the EU stance of not re-opening the WA and/or the backstop wrangle. An election is unlikely to yield a majority government - so back to square 1.

Unfortunately we are where we are and IMO nothing less than a "No Deal" leaving will now enable a sufficiently clean break to allow any future relationship to be formulated that is not tainted by this debacle. Both the UK and the EU need to 'stare down the barrel' and realise the true impact. The R27 have had time to see what the impact will be on their countries and IMO would pressurise for a more collaborative style of negotiation to the benefit of all. World economies are suffering and much different now than they were in 2015/6.

 

[Foxholer]

I'm a bit intrigued by the practicalities of the numerous suggestions...

Indicative Votes - what are the options that have not been the subject of Amendments/
How are the options to be ranked, or order of voting. Perhaps it just a menu !!
Will the EU accept the 'Options'

A second referendum is time consuming and the questions are very problematic (unless you want to stitch up the outcome!)

The idea we can replace the PM but it will change next to beggar all. The 'executive powers' of government have been taken away by Miller's case. MP's have undermined the negotiations via Twitter and silly amendments so its been convenient to blame the PM. BUT a change in personality will not change the EU stance of not re-opening the WA and/or the backstop wrangle. An election is unlikely to yield a majority government - so back to square 1.

Unfortunately we are where we are and IMO nothing less than a "No Deal" leaving will now enable a sufficiently clean break to allow any future relationship to be formulated that is not tainted by this debacle. Both the UK and the EU need to 'stare down the barrel' and realise the true impact. The R27 have had time to see what the impact will be on their countries and IMO would pressurise for a more collaborative style of negotiation to the benefit of all. World economies are suffering and much different now than they were in 2015/6.

Absolutely, totally, indubitably correct!

 

[Fade and Die]

I'm a bit intrigued by the practicalities of the numerous suggestions...

Indicative Votes - what are the options that have not been the subject of Amendments/
How are the options to be ranked, or order of voting. Perhaps it just a menu !!
Will the EU accept the 'Options'

A second referendum is time consuming and the questions are very problematic (unless you want to stitch up the outcome!)

The idea we can replace the PM but it will change next to beggar all. The 'executive powers' of government have been taken away by Miller's case. MP's have undermined the negotiations via Twitter and silly amendments so its been convenient to blame the PM. BUT a change in personality will not change the EU stance of not re-opening the WA and/or the backstop wrangle. An election is unlikely to yield a majority government - so back to square 1.

Unfortunately we are where we are and IMO nothing less than a "No Deal" leaving will now enable a sufficiently clean break to allow any future relationship to be formulated that is not tainted by this debacle. Both the UK and the EU need to 'stare down the barrel' and realise the true impact. The R27 have had time to see what the impact will be on their countries and IMO would pressurise for a more collaborative style of negotiation to the benefit of all. World economies are suffering and much different now than they were in 2015/6.

I think your last paragraph is absolutely spot on, sadly there is no common sense left in the debate, It’s polarised people mainly along party lines and now no one wants to give an inch.

 

[Hobbit]

Now the lady who started the petition gets death threat. While this is not representative of the Leaver voter, this is getting silly

Govt as expected ignoring the thousands who are marching and the millions who petitioned

Its a tough one to reconcile. How do you appease the 3.xxx that signed a petition and the 100,000's of thousands marchers? You could say, "ok we'll do it your way."

But what about the 17.xx million that voted Leave? Do you give way to 3.xxx million in favour of 17.xx million?

I don't know what the right answer is but doing nothing isn't it.

 

[Tashyboy]

Some of the votes the week before last in parliament were only carried by a few votes, in one case the majority was just 2!
Guess what though? No one said “oh it’s too tight and some people might have changed their mind, let’s have another go” the result was accepted, as it should be in a democracy. The actions the remainers want to carry out would not be out of place in a banana republic.

Amen to that brother.

 

[Hobbit]

I'd be interested to know what you'd expect any government to do.

Macron has tried to appease French demonstrators and that's got him nowhere. All it achieves is to generate even more 'marches' and anarchy soon prevails as any minority group decides that rather than using democratic systems they'll just protest and get their way.

Today is the 19th consecutive Saturday of marches in Paris. The mayor of Paris has said that the army will be on the streets and does have the authority to shoot if they feel threatened.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Its a tough one to reconcile. How do you appease the 3.xxx that signed a petition and the 100,000's of thousands marchers? You could say, "ok we'll do it your way."

But what about the 17.xx million that voted Leave? Do you give way to 3.xxx million in favour of 17.xx million?

I don't know what the right answer is but doing nothing isn't it.

I don’t think there is a “right” answer anymore - i don’t think there is anyway that is going to find a common ground - it’s all got too nasty , a 77 year old woman getting death threats ?

That’s one very big march even more so when you compare it to the one organised by Brexiteers ?

I really don’t know what’s going to happen but if it means that we don’t leave the EU or this deal then the aftermath isn’t going to be nice

Maybe they will end up cancelling it with a view to having another vote ? People maybe are a bit more informed now ?

 

[Tashyboy]

Its a tough one to reconcile. How do you appease the 3.xxx that signed a petition and the 100,000's of thousands marchers? You could say, "ok we'll do it your way."

But what about the 17.xx million that voted Leave? Do you give way to 3.xxx million in favour of 17.xx million?

I don't know what the right answer is but doing nothing isn't it.

For me Hobbit the waters have been conveniently muddied by the remainers. The vote was to stay In the EU or not. End of.

All this talk of a " deal" has hijacked and helped the remain cause to well remain.

To be quiet Frank, to not leave destroys the very foundation of what this country is all about. Democracy. It is a political establishment that goes back centuries and has served this country well. It is the same political establishment that this country has passed onto its colonies when granted independence. If we cannot respect the outcome of a vote, what credibility do we give or get from the other countries that follow our electoral system. All because some people don't like it, they don't like the result. It's pathetic.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

With all these numbers floating about it might be worth adding in a bit more statistical 'noise' London; population 8+mill voted Remain and the big March just needs some of them. to fall out of bed ! The Leave areas would need to spend much more time and money to attend a 'march'. Its of little or no significance in the scheme of things except media hype.

Quite a lot of Scots are there, but I suppose that does not figure in your story.
Nicola got a big cheer BTW.
Lady Doon just saying some have queued for hours just to start the march.
My grandaughter had to persuade her mother not to go [from the Scottish Borders] because she feared for her mothers safety.