Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Mudball]

This may be an old chestnut..

So are the Leavers still blaming Gina Miller for the giving Parliament the right to decide rather than TMay and her hardliners. If it wasnt for her, we would have exited by now..

 

[ger147]

So we're still no further forward and will need to wait another 2 weeks to see if TM can come up with any concessions from the EU re. the backstop.

Groundhog day...

 

[Foxholer]

Blaming May and personalising the issue is missing the ball in play.

Its worth remembering the UK has tried to refine the EU for decades and been blocked by the centralists (who simply want to have total budget control by Brussels) and those who have their hands in the cookie jar and simply want the UK's cash.

Cameron tried to object to Juncker a lifetime centralist ! and put a long standing issue/question to Parliament who voted the matter should be put to the public.

All parties agreed to support the result.

Not surprisingly Juncker has hardened his centralist vision and since he's on the way out has nowt to loose.

Both main parties in UK are split and May has the task of negotiating with EU that is only concerned with itself and selling a deal to a mainly two party Parliament whose members are split but not along party lines. Corbyn is just a chancer who doesn't care about anything (including Labour supporters) other than being the Labour Party leader and will agree with anything depending on his audience.

T'was always going to be a mess; if you read the predictions by ex-Finance minister for Greece (Varafoukakis) he's spot on in his portrayal of the EU's negotiating stance and its duplicity. The Parliamentary 'mess' in the UK is merely aiding the EU's duplicity and their disregard for the well being of the citizens of the member states.

If the UK stays in the EU then in the next 10 years you can look forward to the UK being treated as a cash cow. See us adopting the Euro, ECB control of the BoE and our budget, significantly rising contributions, ECJ primacy, increasing unemployment, transfer of Oil rights, grants given to allow other states to uncut UK businesses (e.g. Ireland, Poland and the east bloc etc.

I'd 'Like' this post except for the last paragraph. I don't believe most of those 'disadvantages' (except ECJ Primacy, which is no big deal imo) would happen - at least not deliberately/specifically 'against UK' any more than if/when UK leaves! The UK's 'cash cow' state already exists and is one of the obvious arguments to leave! Without UK's contribution, France and Germany will be left as the primary funders for the 'equalisation' of the rest of the EU (and its bureaucracy)! That's likely to be a considerable burden, even for those economies, but not UK's problem! If anything, it might cause a fundamental re-assessment of the aims of the EU - to such an extent that UK might like to rejoin!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Ian Blackford advising the PM to make sure she has candidates ready for the European Parliament elections.

 

[drdel]

I'd 'Like' this post except for the last paragraph. I don't believe most of those 'disadvantages' (except ECJ Primacy, which is no big deal imo) would happen - at least not deliberately/specifically 'against UK' any more than if/when UK leaves! The UK's 'cash cow' state already exists and is one of the obvious arguments to leave! Without UK's contribution, France and Germany will be left as the primary funders for the 'equalisation' of the rest of the EU (and its bureaucracy)! That's likely to be a considerable burden, even for those economies, but not UK's problem! If anything, it might cause a fundamental re-assessment of the aims of the EU - to such an extent that UK might like to rejoin!

I wouldn't take too much of an issue with you on this. My views (which is all they are) in the last paragraph are because I think there's a real chance (unless Italy mobilises the 'popular' vote) that Selmyar and others of his thinking will be emboldened. There's a significant chance they'd exploit the immediate 'honeymoon period', after surviving Brexit and the MEP elections, as an opportunity to push for the extremes of alignment across all members and the UK in particular because of the knowledge that the UK will be marginalised by the '27' and there'd be no appetite in the UK for a hard line of the same kind that Thatcher once took and raising the thorny internal debate again..

 

[Slime]

Not sure if this is a piss take or not but anyway -

They're British in Northern Ireland, not Irish, by majority they dont want a united Ireland, they want to stay British.
Seems you'd ditch these British people just to get out of EU?
We put British people into Northern Ireland as a colonisation tactic centuries ago.

Also it was the British that drew the border when Ireland(republic) won it's independence from Britain, we could have given it all up but didn't.

Has been a political hot potato for decades. 1000s of people have died, both British and Irish.

Brexit has nothing to do with the political situation over there.
Simply Northern Irish people preferred to be in the EU and perhaps they knew better what issues were likely to arise from a leave vote, wise folks over there.

No, they are not.
They are not British.
They are not British people.
Ireland, (Republic), has never been part of Britain.

I don't mean to be pedantic, but please get the basic facts correct.

 

[Old Skier]

So, no deal off the table, fantastic negotiating skills. Or as all sides in Parliament have to agree "A" deal the majority vote has been kicked into touch and the minority win. Not a chance that any particular group will have a majority on any deal. Next step, the EU demand we join the Euro and we will have no option than to go down on one knee and accept. Interesting take on democracy Parliament has.

 

[Fade and Die]

So responsibility still with the tories then.

Lets go to basics.

Cameron, one of the true villains in all of this, was elected on a clear, unequivocal mandate that his party would conduct a referendum with the simple question of remaining within the EU or leaving it.

People chose to elect him on that basis. It was not hidden. He didn't make it up one morning in the shower.

It had previously been promised by Blair, who chose not to deliver what he promised, and chose instead to spend his time, like a true Socialist, (and like Kinnock before him) lining his and his wife's pockets the snake.

Cameron at least delivered on his promise.

Unfortunately he did it after 10 years of being in office, and doing nothing to address the concerns of those who hated the EU.

Instead of spending ten years asking voters what it was about the EU they disliked, and attempting to address those concerns, change how the EU works, refine it, he chose instead to do bugger all. Until the very last moment, when he panicked and started spreading profoundly idiotic stories about the lack of curry chefs in the event of leaving the EU. What a prize 🤬🤬🤬

But You shouldn’t blame him for the "lies". Nor blame Boris, or Farage. Any more than the deaf, dumb and blind kid, Corbyn.

Because it is not their responsibility to educate us.

It is our responsibility, as voters, to educate ourselves on the issues and vote accordingly.

How much we do that is not the fault of politicians. It is the fault of society as a whole.

We all have, at our fingertips, the means to find out pretty much anything about anything, and view it from every perspective imaginable, so ignorance is not an acceptable argument. But blame the Tories you must but maybe take your red specs off and see that this is a bigger issue than party politics.

 

[Sweep]

TM has had 2 years, she lost a vote in Jan, if now she comes back with no changes are you saying we should accept a bad deal?
But still you wish to blame Labour!

I am not blaming Labour for the past two years. I am really not sure where you got that from.
I firstly challenged your incorrect outlining of Labour’s threat to support a second referendum which put Labour in a very much better light than they deserve.
I secondly said that Labour must take responsibility for its own actions.
Seemingly you disagree even though you claim you don’t want a second referendum.
As to your question, no, I don’t think we should accept a bad deal. I quite like the “no deal is better than a bad deal” option.
I definitely don’t think a second referendum is a remotely good idea and I don’t believe those who do fully appreciate how damaging it will be to politics in this country and our democratic process. If they did they would want no part in it. It is irresponsible for Labour to support it, no matter what the alternatives are.

 

[Sweep]

Ian Blackford advising the PM to make sure she has candidates ready for the European Parliament elections.

News flash: outside Scotland no-one cares what Ian Blackford says.

 

[SocketRocket]

News flash: outside Scotland no-one cares what Ian Blackford says.

Inside Scotland many dont care what he says.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Lets go to basics.

Cameron, one of the true villains in all of this, was elected on a clear, unequivocal mandate that his party would conduct a referendum with the simple question of remaining within the EU or leaving it.

People chose to elect him on that basis. It was not hidden. He didn't make it up one morning in the shower.

It had previously been promised by Blair, who chose not to deliver what he promised, and chose instead to spend his time, like a true Socialist, (and like Kinnock before him) lining his and his wife's pockets the snake.

Cameron at least delivered on his promise.

Unfortunately he did it after 10 years of being in office, and doing nothing to address the concerns of those who hated the EU.

Instead of spending ten years asking voters what it was about the EU they disliked, and attempting to address those concerns, change how the EU works, refine it, he chose instead to do bugger all. Until the very last moment, when he panicked and started spreading profoundly idiotic stories about the lack of curry chefs in the event of leaving the EU. What a prize 🤬🤬🤬

But You shouldn’t blame him for the "lies". Nor blame Boris, or Farage. Any more than the deaf, dumb and blind kid, Corbyn.

Because it is not their responsibility to educate us.

It is our responsibility, as voters, to educate ourselves on the issues and vote accordingly.

How much we do that is not the fault of politicians. It is the fault of society as a whole.

We all have, at our fingertips, the means to find out pretty much anything about anything, and view it from every perspective imaginable, so ignorance is not an acceptable argument. But blame the Tories you must but maybe take your red specs off and see that this is a bigger issue than party politics.

I did educate myself thank you, I voted to leave.
I expected once the result was announced for the work to start, whether you like it or not, the ones in control after the votes were counted was the tory party, why did it take her to loosing the vote a few weeks back to start discussing “matters” with other parties, how has she managed to cause so much upset in her own party?

As a leaver I feel let down by the Government, not Labour or SNP or Plaid Cymru or the Liberals.

Some people just want to blame everyone else instead of those in charge.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

I am not blaming Labour for the past two years. I am really not sure where you got that from.
I firstly challenged your incorrect outlining of Labour’s threat to support a second referendum which put Labour in a very much better light than they deserve.
I secondly said that Labour must take responsibility for its own actions.
Seemingly you disagree even though you claim you don’t want a second referendum.
As to your question, no, I don’t think we should accept a bad deal. I quite like the “no deal is better than a bad deal” option.
I definitely don’t think a second referendum is a remotely good idea and I don’t believe those who do fully appreciate how damaging it will be to politics in this country and our democratic process. If they did they would want no part in it. It is irresponsible for Labour to support it, no matter what the alternatives are.

But yet no criticism of the tory MP’s who support a 2nd Referendum or the Liberals etc, the fuss is about Labour and that’s because she doesn’t have some of her own MP’s backing her and if they vote with Labour she’ll lose.

 

[Fade and Die]

I did educate myself thank you, I voted to leave.
I expected once the result was announced for the work to start, whether you like it or not, the ones in control after the votes were counted was the tory party, why did it take her to loosing the vote a few weeks back to start discussing “matters” with other parties, how has she managed to cause so much upset in her own party?

As a leaver I feel let down by the Government, not Labour or SNP or Plaid Cymru or the Liberals.

Some people just want to blame everyone else instead of those in charge.

Yes it is hard to defend May.....
To my discredit, I actually thought she was a good idea at the time. Discounting the useless Leadsom, once Gove had shafted Johnson and with nobody else willing to put their head above the parapet, maybe, I thought, a ‘soft’ remainer, determined to respect the referendum result, would bring the Tories together and carry the honourable Labour politicians along with her.

What a gullible fool I turned out to be.

I do, however, still believe her original intention was to respect the referendum. She’s more weak than devious and never had the personal strength to stand up to the likes of Olly Robbins. Once she had shot herself in the foot with her disastrous 2017 election campaign, the remain supporting civil service knew they could, via Chequers and the deeply unfavourable Withdrawal Agreement, run her towards a BRINO or staying in by extending A50 (once it’s done once, why not keep doing it until it becomes another permanent temporary solution, like income tax and the national speed limit?).

 

[User62651]

No, they are not.
They are not British.
They are not British people.
Ireland, (Republic), has never been part of Britain.

I don't mean to be pedantic, but please get the basic facts correct.

They have British passports which makes them politically British.
The island of Ireland is part of the geographic British Isles also.

Perhaps you should also check alleged facts?

 

[IanM]

So Ref 2 is coming. Carefully orchestrated from day 1.

Rigged question. Remain v Bad deal no one likes.

I believe I've been telling you this since the day after the 1st Referendum.

No vote against the EU has ever stood. And you've been talking about trade!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

News flash: outside Scotland no-one cares what Ian Blackford says.

Thank you for clarifying why many Scots want to stay in the EU and Leave the UK.

 

[Dando]

Thank you for clarifying why many Scots want to stay in the EU and Leave the UK.

I doubt there will be many English tears if you do leave the UK

 

[drdel]

Thank you for clarifying why many Scots want to stay in the EU and Leave the UK.

I must confess that I do not understand why "many Scots" dislike the English ! It seems to me to be like a stupid stereotype joke that has developed into a convenient 'chip-on-the-shoulder' belief. Is it not time to grow up and look at the world beyond together with the UK (in or out of the EU) and honestly appraise how a few million Scots would actually function internationally?

What specific negatives have the English caused you in the last 100 years or so?

Most of Scotland's problems appear to me to be self inflicted.

 

[Old Skier]

I must confess that I do not understand why "many Scots" dislike the English ! It seems to me to be like a stupid stereotype joke that has developed into a convenient 'chip-on-the-shoulder' belief. Is it not time to grow up and look at the world beyond together with the UK (in or out of the EU) and honestly appraise how a few million Scots would actually function internationally?

What specific negatives have the English caused you in the last 100 years or so?

Most of Scotland's problems appear to me to be self inflicted.

I think you'll find it's the noisey miniority which is why they lost the referendum.