Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[SocketRocket]

A Nationalist is someone who favors Independence for their country so a Brexiteer would fit into this category as would SNP etc.
A Patriot is someone who tends to believe their country is better than others and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors. Not sure this really fits into the Brexit classifications.

 

[Sweep]

In reply to this post and your others below, any linking of pov’s on Brexit to flag waving and whether you’re a patriot or not is simply wrong.
Isn’t part of what’s great about our country is democracy and freedom of speech and something we all take great pride in?

Whether you like to admit it or not, a lot of people who voted to leave did so on a racist and anti-government ticket, how do I know that? Because I’ve lived it everyday since the vote, up here in Seaham a staunch Labour, former mining town were the vast majority voted to leave and when you ask why, they tell you it was because they were never going to support Cameron and what he wanted and were sick of foreigners coming and taking all the jobs. It wasn’t based on fact, it was based on ignorance.
Are the Union flag waving idiots outside Parliament who abused the female MP’s more of a patriot than Bluewolf because of what box they ticked on a piece of paper? No, no their not, 100% their not.
None of us know for sure how the next few years are going to pan out, we ALL hope for ALL our futures it’s ok.
But please don’t judge or label someone based on how hard they wave the Union flag or how loud they sing “God save the Queen”

Of course, which way you voted in the referendum does not in itself determine if you are a patriot. That is not what I am saying as I think you know. I am quite sure some who voted remain would still consider themselves patriotic. However, consistently supporting the “other side” in negotiations with your own country is not a patriotic act no matter how you dress it up. In this particular debate, consistently taking the side of the EU over your own country, consistently criticising your own country whilst not tolerating a peep about the EU is not being patriotic to Britain. We all know that deep inside, these people want the EU to win over the UK, if only to prove themselves right. That is one thing, but these people cannot go on to describe themselves as a patriot.
I am quite sure these days that it is possible to be patriotic to the EU / Europe however. After all, the EU has a flag and an anthem. So if they so wished, people could stand to attention while the flag is raised, the anthem is played, hand on heart and recite “God save Donald Tusk”.
Other than that, you are back to telling people why they voted the way they did again.
I have to say, calling people racist because they are worried about their jobs is just plain wrong. The influx of foreign labour allowed by our membership of the EU has threatened the livelihoods of people who have lived and worked here all their lives. This influx was a political move, not race related. People are entitled to vote for this influx to end if they feel their livelihood is threatened. This isn’t racist. It’s voting against a political practice. Remainers who bandy about the racist tag should be more careful and consider that people’s livelihoods seem pretty high on their agenda when they claim Brexit will threaten them.
Personally though I am not too fussed why people on either side of the debate voted the way they did. Because it’s their choice and they don’t have to explain it to you or anyone else. As you say, democracy is part of what is great about our country. The way someone votes is between him and the ballot box.

 

[Sweep]

Simply more twaddle!

Excellent reply. You must be really proud of yourself.

 

[Foxholer]

As you like to point out to me, you are more than capable of posting without the need for insults.

Personal insults are a no-no imo. I don't believe describing the content of a post as the twaddle I believe it to be, is anywhere near the same! The former (personal insults) break forum rules; the latter (criticising - or in this case 'describing' the content of a post) does not - at least as far as I know!

I believe the description was appropriate, but it would be a waste of (my) time pointing out why, when (I believe) that 'summary description' is apt! Like most posts on this forum, it was purely my opinion - so I've no problem if someone believes otherwise!

 

[Sweep]

A Nationalist is someone who favors Independence for their country so a Brexiteer would fit into this category as would SNP etc.
A Patriot is someone who tends to believe their country is better than others and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors. Not sure this really fits into the Brexit classifications.

TBH I am not sure what a Nationalist is. I was responding to the definition as outlined in the post I was replying to.
I don’t think a patriot is necessarily someone who thinks their country is better than all others. I just think they are proud of it, they want to contribute to its success and as you say, prepared to defend it against enemies and detractors.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Of course, which way you voted in the referendum does not in itself determine if you are a patriot. That is not what I am saying as I think you know. I am quite sure some who voted remain would still consider themselves patriotic. However, consistently supporting the “other side” in negotiations with your own country is not a patriotic act no matter how you dress it up. In this particular debate, consistently taking the side of the EU over your own country, consistently criticising your own country whilst not tolerating a peep about the EU is not being patriotic to Britain. We all know that deep inside, these people want the EU to win over the UK, if only to prove themselves right. That is one thing, but these people cannot go on to describe themselves as a patriot.
I am quite sure these days that it is possible to be patriotic to the EU / Europe however. After all, the EU has a flag and an anthem. So if they so wished, people could stand to attention while the flag is raised, the anthem is played, hand on heart and recite “God save Donald Tusk”.
Other than that, you are back to telling people why they voted the way they did again.
I have to say, calling people racist because they are worried about their jobs is just plain wrong. The influx of foreign labour allowed by our membership of the EU has threatened the livelihoods of people who have lived and worked here all their lives. This influx was a political move, not race related. People are entitled to vote for this influx to end if they feel their livelihood is threatened. This isn’t racist. It’s voting against a political practice. Remainers who bandy about the racist tag should be more careful and consider that people’s livelihoods seem pretty high on their agenda when they claim Brexit will threaten them.
Personally though I am not too fussed why people on either side of the debate voted the way they did. Because it’s their choice and they don’t have to explain it to you or anyone else. As you say, democracy is part of what is great about our country. The way someone votes is between him and the ballot box.

What if you care so much about your Country and you believe they are completely wrong in what they are doing is damaging, does make you any less of a patriot? No it doesn’t, you could argue the opposite.

As for the people worried about the jobs underlined bit, nope, you’re assuming they are employed in the first place.

I’ll give you an example of the issues.

Sunday after playing we are watching the England v France match, bit of banter and rivalry starts and people give their thoughts on the French, then there’s a joke about not playing 6 Nations after Brexit and the Brexit conversation starts. It’s then pointed out to the most vocal brexiteers that we received a 40% grant from the EU for out new simulator last year and there’s no way we’d of been able to build it with the grant, especially from a tory government, then the slagging of tories start, they’re then asked why they voted Brexit and once again the answer was “no way I’d support Cameron and I’m sick of all the Asians and Africans coming over and taking over” (the actual words and descrpitions were not civil).
It was pointed out Africa and Asia were not part of Europe and a couple were asked about the threats to jobs when they hadn’t done a days work since the pits closed, the answer to that? At least the NHS will get all that money they promised.

So unfortunately, no matter how it has or hasn’t impacted people in different parts of the Country there are still lots of ignorant people up here in Seaham who are thinking Brexit is a white land of milk and honey.

I just hope we all benefit, all of us!

 

[Deleted member 16999]

TBH I am not sure what a Nationalist is. I was responding to the definition as outlined in the post I was replying to.
I don’t think a patriot is necessarily someone who thinks their country is better than all others. I just think they are proud of it, they want to contribute to its success and as you say, prepared to defend it against enemies and detractors.

So if I state I 100% agree with Bluewolf and then mention my 36yrs in the Army and still one of The Queen’s Body Guard, I am to be classed as no longer a patriot?

 

[SocketRocket]

Personal insults are a no-no imo. I don't believe describing the content of a post as the twaddle I believe it to be, is anywhere near the same! The former (personal insults) break forum rules; the latter (criticising - or in this case 'describing' the content of a post) does not - at least as far as I know!

I believe the description was appropriate, but it would be a waste of (my) time pointing out why, when (I believe) that 'summary description' is apt! Like most posts on this forum, it was purely my opinion - so I've no problem if someone believes otherwise!

Cant you see that if you accuse someone of talking 'Twaddle' you are insulting their intelligence, you are suggesting the person is stating an unrealistic view and as such is stupid. Someone could respond to your post saying you are talking 'Bollocks' would that be an insult or only your post was being insulted. That's a fine line you are drawing and I would err on the side you are insulting the poster. Again, try and be less confrontational in your rejection of the post.

 

[Foxholer]

A Nationalist is someone who favors Independence for their country so a Brexiteer would fit into this category as would SNP etc.
A Patriot is someone who tends to believe their country is better than others and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors. Not sure this really fits into the Brexit classifications.

<From Oxford dictionary:>
Nationalist:
1Identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations.

‘their nationalism is tempered by a desire to join the European Union’

More example sentences

1. 1.1 Advocacy of or support for the political independence of a particular nation or people.
   ‘Scottish nationalism’

Patriot:
A person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.

‘a true patriot’
<end definitions>

So the bold bit doesn't necessarily apply - to either description. In fact, to me, it describes a 'deluded' person! i don't believe there is a country that is 'best' in every respect!
more importantly, both Brexiteers and Remainers could be described as 'patriots'!

 

[SocketRocket]

So if I state I 100% agree with Bluewolf and then mention my 36yrs in the Army and still one of The Queen’s Body Guard, I am to be classed as no longer a patriot?

The two things are unrelated and not pertinent to the subject. If you agree with BW then that makes you neither a Nationalist or Patriot. Your Army career; although impressive is also irrelevant.

 

[Sweep]

Personal insults are a no-no imo. I don't believe describing the content of a post as the twaddle I believe it to be, is anywhere near the same! The former (personal insults) break forum rules; the latter (criticising - or in this case 'describing' the content of a post) does not - at least as far as I know!

I believe the description was appropriate, but it would be a waste of (my) time pointing out why, when (I believe) that 'summary description' is apt! Like most posts on this forum, it was purely my opinion - so I've no problem if someone believes otherwise!

I suppose that’s one view.... if you are deliberately setting out to be rude and offensive.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

The two things are unrelated and not pertinent to the subject. If you agree with BW then that makes you neither a Nationalist or Patriot. Your Army career although impressive is also irrelevant.

Have I “defended” my Country in the truest sense?
And Sweep has clearly told Bluewolf he is not a Patriot!

Personally as previously stated it is completely wrong, imo, to bring patriotism and nationalism into the discussion, it’s lazy and an easy insult to throw out.

 

[drdel]

Perhaps we could agree that patriotism and nationalism are probably flip sides of a very subjective 'coin' - defined only by how an individual sees themselves.

IMO it is not relevant to the Brexit debate.

In my view the issue is more about an undignified debate between the UK and the EU that is being played out between individuals more concerned with showboating in the media and juvenile writings on Twitter. Negotiations would normally take place largely in confidence. Now both sides are afraid of a loss of face in the media whose sole interest is only in creating sensational stories for a few seconds or headlines. The propoganda has caused the debate to become an unedifying show of bickering (much like some of the deliberately provocative language on here).

I'm interested in seeing more information on how we think the EU elections might cloud our thinking. We have Juncker,Tusk etc finishingtheir term probably being replaced by others from a small economy countries (because the EU is afraid to be seen as bullying small members). Such people seem to me to have little knowledge of international economics or global affairs. This is a risk to the EU and, by implication the UK if we Remain tried to tightly. The EU has massive issues because Juncker insisted on 'printing' money to keep the Euro afloat, this huge debt means the risk from Italy, Spain, France and Greece and fragile Germany will need further refinancing.

The UK would be dragged down so there is a lot more at stake than the Irish border; making it especially important that we can trade beyond the EU and halt the 'backstop' at a time of our choosing.

 

[Sweep]

What if you care so much about your Country and you believe they are completely wrong in what they are doing is damaging, does make you any less of a patriot? No it doesn’t, you could argue the opposite.

As for the people worried about the jobs underlined bit, nope, you’re assuming they are employed in the first place.

I’ll give you an example of the issues.

Sunday after playing we are watching the England v France match, bit of banter and rivalry starts and people give their thoughts on the French, then there’s a joke about not playing 6 Nations after Brexit and the Brexit conversation starts. It’s then pointed out to the most vocal brexiteers that we received a 40% grant from the EU for out new simulator last year and there’s no way we’d of been able to build it with the grant, especially from a tory government, then the slagging of tories start, they’re then asked why they voted Brexit and once again the answer was “no way I’d support Cameron and I’m sick of all the Asians and Africans coming over and taking over” (the actual words and descrpitions were not civil).
It was pointed out Africa and Asia were not part of Europe and a couple were asked about the threats to jobs when they hadn’t done a days work since the pits closed, the answer to that? At least the NHS will get all that money they promised.

So unfortunately, no matter how it has or hasn’t impacted people in different parts of the Country there are still lots of ignorant people up here in Seaham who are thinking Brexit is a white land of milk and honey.

I just hope we all benefit, all of us!

So basically you are basing your entire view of Brexit voters in your town on conversations overheard whilst watching rugby?
We all know there are genuine racists around. But using your logic you could claim a vote for remain is racist because it excludes people from outside the EU.
Maybe these people haven’t worked since the pits closed because there are few jobs and those that are available are taken by the influx of foreign labour. Have you considered these people’s concerns might be genuine?
If someone’s job is taken from them, it only matters in this context if that was a result of a political process. The nationality of the person who took it doesn’t matter. More people competing for fewer jobs = unemployment.
It’s their right to vote against this influx if they wish. How do you think Trump got elected? If you live in the rust belt and have had a President in power for 8 years who ignored your plight as unemployed and someone comes along and says he will get your job back, who are you going to vote for? Is that racist? Of course not.
If someone voting against the influx of foreign labour is racist then the process of allowing the influx of labour must have been racist too. Neither is racist. Both are political.
If it wasn’t political, how come it was something people could vote against?
And I am sorry, but just because you disagree with them doesn’t make them ignorant. They probably think you are ignorant for not seeing their point.

 

[Sweep]

Have I “defended” my Country in the truest sense?
And Sweep has clearly told Bluewolf he is not a Patriot!

Personally as previously stated it is completely wrong, imo, to bring patriotism and nationalism into the discussion, it’s lazy and an easy insult to throw out.

To be fair, it was you who brought nationalism into it. I was talking about patriotism. And it wasn’t intended as an insult. I just don’t see how you can consider yourself a patriot and continually root for “the other side” and have little if no faith in Britain.
Genuine question: training aside, would you feel as compelled to risk your life defending the EU rather than “Queen and Country”?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

To be fair, it was you who brought nationalism into it. I was talking about patriotism. And it wasn’t intended as an insult. I just don’t see how you can consider yourself a patriot and continually root for “the other side” and have little if no faith in Britain.
Genuine question: training aside, would you feel as compelled to risk your life defending the EU rather than “Queen and Country”?

I took the queen’s shilling and did as I was told, I didn’t get a choice which banner in Bosnia or Kosovo I was working under, the commander in chiefs were multi national.
It tends to be civilians that issues with EU/NATO etc.

As for Seaham, as I said before the discussions experienced have been numerous and widespread over the last 3 years, the Rugby tale was just the latest experience.
We now have 4 foodbanks, was 1, other 3 have come about in the last 12 months.
We have very very few asians or africans in the area, we need to sort our own scum out before we blame everything on immigration.

 

[SocketRocket]

I took the queen’s shilling and did as I was told, I didn’t get a choice which banner in Bosnia or Kosovo I was working under, the commander in chiefs were multi national.
It tends to be civilians that issues with EU/NATO etc.

As for Seaham, as I said before the discussions experienced have been numerous and widespread over the last 3 years, the Rugby tale was just the latest experience.
We now have 4 foodbanks, was 1, other 3 have come about in the last 12 months.
We have very very few asians or africans in the area, we need to sort our own scum out before we blame everything on immigration.

There you go again!

 

[drdel]

Meanwhile George Soros has written a thought provoking article!!

 

[Hobbit]

To be fair, it was you who brought nationalism into it. I was talking about patriotism. And it wasn’t intended as an insult. I just don’t see how you can consider yourself a patriot and continually root for “the other side” and have little if no faith in Britain.
Genuine question: training aside, would you feel as compelled to risk your life defending the EU rather than “Queen and Country”?

Why can't someone who wants the UK to Remain in the EU be patriotic? They consider that remaining is the best option for the UK.

 

[Hobbit]

Meanwhile George Soros has written a thought provoking article!!

He certainly calls it as he sees it. I think he may well be right too.

As an aside, you have George Soros whose political meddling is spoken about in many countries where he's got involved, and on the other hand you have Arron Banks whose funding of Brexit has got him in hot water. Peas in a pod?