Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Mudball]

So the National Farmers Union has written to Gove that no-deal will be catastrophic for them. Remind me again, we were told that the Farmers were the first guys wanting to leave .. or was that a different set of farmers??

 

[Lord Tyrion]

So for a moment.. forget all the peeps in Westminister who everyone seems to agree are beyond repair.. forget if you are a Leaver or Exiter...

Mrs M asked me a simple question.. 'Do you want me to stock up on something before April?'. Irrespective of which way you lean on the debate, you will still need to eat, shower, drink, cook, plant etc. So the most fundamental question is ... to Stock or not to Stock... What advice are you giving the Mrs if she pops the question..

Don't stock. No need. The only problem will be if people do stock as that would distort everything. I've thought about what we buy at home, food wise, and I reckon the only things that are imported are perishables such as fruit and veg that is out of season. You can't really stock up on those, the clue is in the title, and we'll survive without Dutch / Spanish salad for a few weeks if we need to 😄

 

[IanM]

So the National Farmers Union has written to Gove that no-deal will be catastrophic for them. Remind me again, we were told that the Farmers were the first guys wanting to leave .. or was that a different set of farmers??

Probably

 

[drdel]

Don't stock. No need. The only problem will be if people do stock as that would distort everything. I've thought about what we buy at home, food wise, and I reckon the only things that are imported are perishables such as fruit and veg that is out of season. You can't really stock up on those, the clue is in the title, and we'll survive without Dutch / Spanish salad for a few weeks if we need to 😄

There are other sellers outside the EU which is why Italy and Spain, to name two, are very worried about the loss of business and being undercut.

 

[Hobbit]

Don't stock. No need. The only problem will be if people do stock as that would distort everything. I've thought about what we buy at home, food wise, and I reckon the only things that are imported are perishables such as fruit and veg that is out of season. You can't really stock up on those, the clue is in the title, and we'll survive without Dutch / Spanish salad for a few weeks if we need to 😄

I wouldn't worry about the perishables. A guy did a Youtube vid a few weeks back about the hysteria around the lettuce thing. He recorded what was on the shelves in his local supermarket. The lettuce on the shelves were from 3(?) different countries, none of which were EU countries.

 

[Foxholer]

There are other sellers outside the EU which is why Italy and Spain, to name two, are very worried about the loss of business and being undercut.

I agree with the non-bold bit. But evidence for the bold bit please!

Not actually disagreeing, but there's been so much simple opinion and flat out lies spouted, that such assertions require (credible) evidence before I accept them!

 

[Hobbit]

There are other sellers outside the EU which is why Italy and Spain, to name two, are very worried about the loss of business and being undercut.

There's a piece in the local English paper over here today. There's 11,500+ exporters in Spain who are very worried about losing their market.

 

[Sweep]

Well said, some people tend to confuse Patriotism with Nationalism.

The difference between patriotism and nationalism is that the patriot is proud of his country for what it does, and the nationalist is proud of his country no matter what it does; the first attitude creates a feeling of responsibility, but the second a feeling of blind arrogance.

However, in these cases the patriot isn’t proud of his country for what it does, because in their view it can’t do anything without help and interference from the EU.
I don’t think there are many, if any, nationalists that fit your description on here. For example, I think everyone at some point has expressed frustration at the way our government has handled the negotiations and the way our parliament has acted over Brexit at some point, no matter what side of the debate they are on.
What I don’t see is the remainers on here or elsewhere ever conceding an inch, even when faced with cold hard facts. They just cannot bring themselves to criticise their beloved EU. If you look at those who practically live outside Parliament with their EU flags, you would think we are talking about leaving Nirvana. It’s just blind faith in the EU and no faith whatsoever in their own country.

 

[Hobbit]

However, in these cases the patriot isn’t proud of his country for what it does, because in their view it can’t do anything without help and interference from the EU.
I don’t think there are many, if any, nationalists that fit your description on here. For example, I think everyone at some point has expressed frustration at the way our government has handled the negotiations and the way our parliament has acted over Brexit at some point, no matter what side of the debate they are on.
What I don’t see is the remainers on here or elsewhere ever conceding an inch, even when faced with cold hard facts. They just cannot bring themselves to criticise their beloved EU. If you look at those who practically live outside Parliament with their EU flags, you would think we are talking about leaving Nirvana. It’s just blind faith in the EU and no faith whatsoever in their own country.

Nah, that's just rubbish.

First of all, what you've posted is your opinion of people's stance. Its not definitive, its just an opinion. My opinion, for what its worth, is that Bluey feels we're better as part of a greater organisation, not that we need help to be better. However, if the shambolic negotiations are anything to go by I'd definitely worry about our govt's ability to put the mechanics in place to survive Brexit.

Secondly, "Remainers on here...;" I'm a Remainer and would vote Remain again in a heart beat. My issue with Remainers and Leavers is the blind faith some have in nirvana both within or without. The language of crash out, which I detest with a passion, is too emotive and some people just lap it up. Equally, the expectation that dump the EU will lead to a massive economic boost.

The UK will make a success of leaving the EU but not before there will be some serious bumps in the road. Leaving won't be a rehearsal, it will be a very real painful thing for many people. And staying in, with the proposed increase in the budget will be very painful too. There are 2 countries running the EU, France and Germany. The UK has never been fully engaged, or been included at/with the top table.

Food banks and austerity, and thats whilst the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world. Can you imagine how good things will be when the UK hits those bumps in the road? When it sees an almost immediate (further) drop in the pound. Whoopee-do, UK products will be cheaper for foreign buyers BUT the raw materials bought from everywhere in the world will be more expensive. The cold hard facts are that the UK will suffer in the short term. But that's too impersonal. People will suffer genuine hardship. Some businesses will go to the wall - not might, will.

Leaving will create some fantastic opportunities, providing the UK has the wherewithal to grasp them. And then there's the surviving the bumps in the road. Can businesses survive that bump, those extra costs, before nirvana arrives. Some will, and thrive, but some won't.

 

[Foxholer]

However, in these cases the patriot isn’t proud of his country for what it does, because in their view it can’t do anything without help and interference from the EU.
I don’t think there are many, if any, nationalists that fit your description on here. For example, I think everyone at some point has expressed frustration at the way our government has handled the negotiations and the way our parliament has acted over Brexit at some point, no matter what side of the debate they are on.
What I don’t see is the remainers on here or elsewhere ever conceding an inch, even when faced with cold hard facts. They just cannot bring themselves to criticise their beloved EU. If you look at those who practically live outside Parliament with their EU flags, you would think we are talking about leaving Nirvana. It’s just blind faith in the EU and no faith whatsoever in their own country.

What a load of twaddle!

Except, perhaps, the italicised bit. Though that's hardly a great argument for 'taking back control'!

Most of those 'cold hard facts' have been nothing of the sort! And I'm almost certain that 'their beloved EU' doesn't describe the vast majority of Remainers. There may be some EU devotees, but I believe most Remainers simply prefer the relatively predictability of the status quo!

 

[Sweep]

What a load of twaddle!

Except, perhaps, the italicised bit. Though that's hardly a great argument for 'taking back control'!

Most of those 'cold hard facts' have been nothing of the sort! And I'm almost certain that 'their beloved EU' doesn't describe the vast majority of Remainers. There may be some EU devotees, but I believe most Remainers simply prefer the relatively predictability of the status quo!

There you go again. Is it really beyond you to post in disagreement with someone without reverting to insults in the very first line? Would you have said that to my face? Is that how you react in person or are you just another keyboard warrior? Are you surprised people respond to you in kind?
Taking back control has nothing to do with my post. This wasn’t about the central leave / remain debate. It was about entrenched views and nationalism as described in the post I was replying to.
What you call “most” cold, hard facts” does not mean “all”. I am sure even you would accept that there have been some indisputable facts posted, that have been either treated with disdain or quite often on this forum, just not replied to.
In my experience (as I outlined when I wrote “ what I don’t see”) remainers will not accept any criticism of the EU. Oddly, I don’t believe this was the case prior to the referendum but now their views have become entrenched. In their view it seems the EU can do no wrong. I see remainers supporting the EU in negotiations against their own country, defending the institution at all costs. That is their prerogative but it is not patriotic.
When you say that there “may be some EU devotees” you are essentially agreeing with my post that you described as “a load of twaddle”. Your view on remainers just wanting to maintain the status quo is just you telling people why they voted the way they did again. This is something I thought we had got past nationally months ago and on this forum a few thousand posts in the past.
The post I replied to described a nationalist as someone who believed his country can do no wrong. I said that I don’t believe there is anyone here who thought like that. This was part of the post you trashed (not the bit you italicised). Part of the post you described as “a load of twaddle”. I suggest you come up with a name of a forummer you believe is a nationalist as described in the post I was replying to. If you can’t I suggest you go away and reflect on your “load of twaddle” comment and think about what you post and how you post it in the future.

 

[Sweep]

Nah, that's just rubbish.

First of all, what you've posted is your opinion of people's stance. Its not definitive, its just an opinion. My opinion, for what its worth, is that Bluey feels we're better as part of a greater organisation, not that we need help to be better. However, if the shambolic negotiations are anything to go by I'd definitely worry about our govt's ability to put the mechanics in place to survive Brexit.

Secondly, "Remainers on here...;" I'm a Remainer and would vote Remain again in a heart beat. My issue with Remainers and Leavers is the blind faith some have in nirvana both within or without. The language of crash out, which I detest with a passion, is too emotive and some people just lap it up. Equally, the expectation that dump the EU will lead to a massive economic boost.

The UK will make a success of leaving the EU but not before there will be some serious bumps in the road. Leaving won't be a rehearsal, it will be a very real painful thing for many people. And staying in, with the proposed increase in the budget will be very painful too. There are 2 countries running the EU, France and Germany. The UK has never been fully engaged, or been included at/with the top table.

Food banks and austerity, and thats whilst the UK is the 5th largest economy in the world. Can you imagine how good things will be when the UK hits those bumps in the road? When it sees an almost immediate (further) drop in the pound. Whoopee-do, UK products will be cheaper for foreign buyers BUT the raw materials bought from everywhere in the world will be more expensive. The cold hard facts are that the UK will suffer in the short term. But that's too impersonal. People will suffer genuine hardship. Some businesses will go to the wall - not might, will.

Leaving will create some fantastic opportunities, providing the UK has the wherewithal to grasp them. And then there's the surviving the bumps in the road. Can businesses survive that bump, those extra costs, before nirvana arrives. Some will, and thrive, but some won't.

In the main I refer you to my reply to Foxy. You are correct when you say that you voted remain and I guess that makes you a remainer. I was particularly referring to ardent remainers who cannot see past the EU. I didn’t mean every single person who voted remain and I think you know that, but it is true that I didn’t make this clear. Apart from indisputable and accepted facts all any of us post on here are opinions. It’s a debate. I thought that was understood. I do not portray my opinion as fact.
I am well aware that Bluey is of the opinion we are better off in. He has made that very clear. I am sure I have made it clear I disagree. As I say, it’s a debate. A very interesting debate. Not particularly one if you are looking for a feel good factor or one for a period of relaxation, but an interesting debate nonetheless. From what he has posted though, it does seem to me that he has little if any confidence in the UK going it alone.
I agree with you about our government and how they have handled negotiations, as I think I have made clear. It’s a worry, though I do hope and believe that if we finally lanced the boil and left we would be free of many shackles, not least the act of leaving itself, and governing would become easier. That is not to say it won’t be without new challenges.
The rest of your reply is your opinion, not that I don’t agree with some of what you say. However my post was not about the central remain / leave debate, but about entrenched views and nationalism as described in the post I was replying to. In this regard and with respect it’s not relevant to the points I was making that you disagreed with.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

However, in these cases the patriot isn’t proud of his country for what it does, because in their view it can’t do anything without help and interference from the EU.
I don’t think there are many, if any, nationalists that fit your description on here. For example, I think everyone at some point has expressed frustration at the way our government has handled the negotiations and the way our parliament has acted over Brexit at some point, no matter what side of the debate they are on.
What I don’t see is the remainers on here or elsewhere ever conceding an inch, even when faced with cold hard facts. They just cannot bring themselves to criticise their beloved EU. If you look at those who practically live outside Parliament with their EU flags, you would think we are talking about leaving Nirvana. It’s just blind faith in the EU and no faith whatsoever in their own country.

In reply to this post and your others below, any linking of pov’s on Brexit to flag waving and whether you’re a patriot or not is simply wrong.
Isn’t part of what’s great about our country is democracy and freedom of speech and something we all take great pride in?

Whether you like to admit it or not, a lot of people who voted to leave did so on a racist and anti-government ticket, how do I know that? Because I’ve lived it everyday since the vote, up here in Seaham a staunch Labour, former mining town were the vast majority voted to leave and when you ask why, they tell you it was because they were never going to support Cameron and what he wanted and were sick of foreigners coming and taking all the jobs. It wasn’t based on fact, it was based on ignorance.
Are the Union flag waving idiots outside Parliament who abused the female MP’s more of a patriot than Bluewolf because of what box they ticked on a piece of paper? No, no their not, 100% their not.
None of us know for sure how the next few years are going to pan out, we ALL hope for ALL our futures it’s ok.
But please don’t judge or label someone based on how hard they wave the Union flag or how loud they sing “God save the Queen”

 

[Doon frae Troon]

So the National Farmers Union has written to Gove that no-deal will be catastrophic for them. Remind me again, we were told that the Farmers were the first guys wanting to leave .. or was that a different set of farmers??

No the same farmers, they voted leave in the sound knowledge that the will still receive their EU agriculture subsidies.
Same as the fisherfolk.

 

[Hobbit]

The who is a patriot and who is a nationalist, in respect of this debate, is very thought provoking.

Can a patriot also want the UK to be part of the EU? Why not? If someone believes that being part of something is best for the UK, surely that also means they are a patriot?

The debate about what is a nationalist is a little greyer, in my eyes. The painting of the word nationalist as bad is a relatively recent thing, and in its purest form a nationalist isn't too far removed from a patriot. However, the difference between a nationalist and a Neo-nationalist is quite distinct. Neo-nationalism is very much a rightwing populism, often alongside antiglobalisation as we have seen with the more extreme Brexit supporters.

Can a Remainer be a nationalist? That all depends on how much federalism is prevalent in the EU's make-up. A large part of nationalism is about sovereignty, and I'd argue that sovereignty and the current level of EU federalism isn't compatible.

Before we get the ardent EU Remainers shouting that the UK has sovereignty, no it doesn't. Whilst the UK has to take laws from the EU it isn't sovereign. The mere fact that the UK has disputed over 4,000 laws from the EU in the last 10 years, losing 85% of those disputes, makes it a given that UK sovereignty is compromised. Anyone disputing that should simply look up the definition of sovereignty. I can't be ar53d arguing the toss on yes we do no we don't have sovereignty. The definition is what it is, and the UK doesn't have sovereignty right across the full gambit of law making.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

The who is a patriot and who is a nationalist, in respect of this debate, is very thought provoking.

Can a patriot also want the UK to be part of the EU? Why not? If someone believes that being part of something is best for the UK, surely that also means they are a patriot?

The debate about what is a nationalist is a little greyer, in my eyes. The painting of the word nationalist as bad is a relatively recent thing, and in its purest form a nationalist isn't too far removed from a patriot. However, the difference between a nationalist and a Neo-nationalist is quite distinct. Neo-nationalism is very much a rightwing populism, often alongside antiglobalisation as we have seen with the more extreme Brexit supporters.

Can a Remainer be a nationalist? That all depends on how much federalism is prevalent in the EU's make-up. A large part of nationalism is about sovereignty, and I'd argue that sovereignty and the current level of EU federalism isn't compatible.

Before we get the ardent EU Remainers shouting that the UK has sovereignty, no it doesn't. Whilst the UK has to take laws from the EU it isn't sovereign. The mere fact that the UK has disputed over 4,000 laws from the EU in the last 10 years, losing 85% of those disputes, makes it a given that UK sovereignty is compromised. Anyone disputing that should simply look up the definition of sovereignty. I can't be ar53d arguing the toss on yes we do no we don't have sovereignty. The definition is what it is, and the UK doesn't have sovereignty right across the full gambit of law making.

Don’t think there’s any reason to link patriotism or nationalism in to the debate imo, hopefully we all want what’s best for Britain.

 

[SocketRocket]

In reply to this post and your others below, any linking of pov’s on Brexit to flag waving and whether you’re a patriot or not is simply wrong.
Isn’t part of what’s great about our country is democracy and freedom of speech and something we all take great pride in?

Whether you like to admit it or not, a lot of people who voted to leave did so on a racist and anti-government ticket, how do I know that? Because I’ve lived it everyday since the vote, up here in Seaham a staunch Labour, former mining town were the vast majority voted to leave and when you ask why, they tell you it was because they were never going to support Cameron and what he wanted and were sick of foreigners coming and taking all the jobs. It wasn’t based on fact, it was based on ignorance.
Are the Union flag waving idiots outside Parliament who abused the female MP’s more of a patriot than Bluewolf because of what box they ticked on a piece of paper? No, no their not, 100% their not.
None of us know for sure how the next few years are going to pan out, we ALL hope for ALL our futures it’s ok.
But please don’t judge or label someone based on how hard they wave the Union flag or how loud they sing “God save the Queen”

You make a point that defines people who have concerns on the level of immigration into the UK as 'Racist' how exactly do you come to such a conclusion? Many/most people who have concerns on the level of immigration are IMO not racist, they have concerns that too may people have been allowed to come into the country in too short a time scale and this has caused undesirable pressures on our services. OK, there are also many people concerned that some immigrants are not; or have no intention of; integrating into UK society thus creating divided communities. I don't believe either case is the result of Racism as they do not single out any particular race as being inferior in some way.

There will always be racists in society, just like there will be the overtly PC brigade but I consider it a wild exaggeration to label the 'vast majority' who voted leave did it for racist reasons rather than genuine concerns on immigration.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

You make a point that defines people who have concerns on the level of immigration into the UK as 'Racist' how exactly do you come to such a conclusion? Many/most people who have concerns on the level of immigration are IMO not racist, they have concerns that too may people have been allowed to come into the country in too short a time scale and this has caused undesirable pressures on our services. OK, there are also many people concerned that some immigrants are not; or have no intention of; integrating into UK society thus creating divided communities. I don't believe either case is the result of Racism as they do not single out any particular race as being inferior in some way.

There will always be racists in society, just like there will be the overtly PC brigade but I consider it a wild exaggeration to label the 'vast majority' who voted leave did it for racist reasons rather than genuine concerns on immigration.

Because I live here and have spoken to them, it’s gone from the odd racist/banter remark to full on insulting, I can only speak about the people of Seaham, not anywhere else.
Lived here 15yrs and in the last few years it seems to have become more acceptable to voice a racist opinion, especially in the pubs/working mens clubs/golf club when discussing Brexit.
They are not genuine concerns over immigration because when questioned on it 99% are unaffected it by it and you get the UKIP, Right Wing stereotypical answer.

 

[Foxholer]

There you go again. Is it really beyond you to post in disagreement with someone without reverting to insults in the very first line? Would you have said that to my face? Is that how you react in person or are you just another keyboard warrior? Are you surprised people respond to you in kind?
Taking back control has nothing to do with my post. This wasn’t about the central leave / remain debate. It was about entrenched views and nationalism as described in the post I was replying to.
What you call “most” cold, hard facts” does not mean “all”. I am sure even you would accept that there have been some indisputable facts posted, that have been either treated with disdain or quite often on this forum, just not replied to.
In my experience (as I outlined when I wrote “ what I don’t see”) remainers will not accept any criticism of the EU. Oddly, I don’t believe this was the case prior to the referendum but now their views have become entrenched. In their view it seems the EU can do no wrong. I see remainers supporting the EU in negotiations against their own country, defending the institution at all costs. That is their prerogative but it is not patriotic.
When you say that there “may be some EU devotees” you are essentially agreeing with my post that you described as “a load of twaddle”. Your view on remainers just wanting to maintain the status quo is just you telling people why they voted the way they did again. This is something I thought we had got past nationally months ago and on this forum a few thousand posts in the past.
The post I replied to described a nationalist as someone who believed his country can do no wrong. I said that I don’t believe there is anyone here who thought like that. This was part of the post you trashed (not the bit you italicised). Part of the post you described as “a load of twaddle”. I suggest you come up with a name of a forummer you believe is a nationalist as described in the post I was replying to. If you can’t I suggest you go away and reflect on your “load of twaddle” comment and think about what you post and how you post it in the future.

Simply more twaddle!

 

[SocketRocket]

Simply more twaddle!

As you like to point out to me, you are more than capable of posting without the need for insults.