Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

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Hobbit said:
He isn't relevant but what he said is. One of the greatest voting choices made by millions of people was made on the back of what he said, just as many were persuaded by Farage and Johnson. Whether he meant it or not, whether he was posturing or not... the 'contract' he made with the electorate is very relevant.

Circumstances have moved on but millions of people are still holding onto his words. Until they can be persuaded either way by new 'promises' his words remain relevant.
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It’s just words at the end of the day - no contract just words and many times empty words have come out of the mouths of politicians- he can’t give any promises about the future when he walks away and has no say - the only thing that matters are actions especially from a politician- far too many of us have heard empty promises and “contracts” to be let down.
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Are you really trying to compare and agreement written down in paper and signed by multiple political figures to one person making a vocal promise which has no legal standpoint ?

Many PM’s or leader make promises in speech’s when looking for a vote - how many actually get carried out
It’s a speech made by someone who has no say anymore

Remember there was a speech that also said that for Scotland the way for them to be in the EU was staying as part of the UK - what’s happening with that then
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Of course what he said was relevant. This was probably the biggest decision this country had to make since WW2. Do you agree that Prime Ministers should make pledges to the public on behalf of the government on what would be enacted then it be thrown into the bin after. REALLY!
 
SocketRocket said:
Of course what he said was relevant. This was probably the biggest decision this country had to make since WW2. Do you agree that Prime Ministers should make pledges to the public on behalf of the government on what would be enacted then it be thrown into the bin after. REALLY!
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Prime Minsters have been making pledges for centuries- meaningless until backed up by actions - the “words” are only relevant or meaningful to the people whos wants to believe them - for me they are worthless , they mean nothing now - they were words designed for an impact at that time a couple years ago , Cameron spoke as if he would be the one doing it - but he walked away so his words are just words

As I said Scotland had their most important vote for decades - they were told one thing - stay in UK stay in EU , was that relevant ? Or was it just words and empty promises.
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Prime Minsters have been making pledges for centuries- meaningless until backed up by actions - the “words” are only relevant or meaningful to the people whos wants to believe them - for me they are worthless , they mean nothing now - they were words designed for an impact at that time a couple years ago , Cameron spoke as if he would be the one doing it - but he walked away so his words are just words
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It wasn't just spoken words though LP.

"The referendum on Thursday, 23 June is your chance to decide if we should remain in or leave the European Union.

The government believes it is in the best interests of the UK to remain in the EU.

This is the way to protect jobs, provide security, and strengthen the UK’s economy for every family in this country – a clear path into the future, in contrast to the uncertainty of leaving.

This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide."

The above was written plain as day in the leaflet that was sent out before the referendum.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...uropean-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk
 
Hobbit said:
I agree but, equally, all those Remainers who still repeat the mantra, "£350m on the side of the bus" are just as guilty then. People can't have it both ways can they?
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No they cant. Agreed. Personally I dont go on about any Leave lies. Leave won the refernedum and there is a lot of cringeworthy project fear nonsense doing the rounds largely from remainers in the media just now, fairly see through it is too. I would prefer they sort the mess out and we find some decent political leaders going forward occupying the middle centrist ground, that's all. This political chaos had been rumbling on even longer since 2012 for us up here with the Indyref before the EU ref. Wearied of it tbh. I am happy to be a citizen of the UK inside the EU like it was before the collective madness set in. Was it really so bad before, doesn't feel like it these days?
 
ColchesterFC said:
It wasn't just spoken words though LP.

"The referendum on Thursday, 23 June is your chance to decide if we should remain in or leave the European Union.

The government believes it is in the best interests of the UK to remain in the EU.

This is the way to protect jobs, provide security, and strengthen the UK’s economy for every family in this country – a clear path into the future, in contrast to the uncertainty of leaving.

This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide."

The above was written plain as day in the leaflet that was sent out before the referendum.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...uropean-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk
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It’s not legally binding is it ? It is just words whether spoken or written- unless someone can tell me that all governments have carried out what they said they would and never gone back on a promise then what Cameron said is irrelevant now and what’s in a leaflet is irrelevant now

What is relevant is the people who have stayed around sorting out the mess and finding the best thing for us all or what they think is the best thing for us all - sick of all the he said she said , leave means leave blah blah blah blah - it’s all just pathetic posturing from an increasingly embarrassing situation

Shame far too many would prefer to score points than anything else instead of sorting it out
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Prime Minsters have been making pledges for centuries- meaningless until backed up by actions - the “words” are only relevant or meaningful to the people whos wants to believe them - for me they are worthless , they mean nothing now - they were words designed for an impact at that time a couple years ago , Cameron spoke as if he would be the one doing it - but he walked away so his words are just words

As I said Scotland had their most important vote for decades - they were told one thing - stay in UK stay in EU , was that relevant ? Or was it just words and empty promises.
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You can say his words are worthless, and in the context of where we are today you are right. But until millions, not one or 2, or 20 or 30, or 2000 or 3000 people who hold them as relevant are persuaded otherwise they should be acknowledged as relevant to the argument. And it is the turning of backs on those that believe them that is divisive and, on a more basic level, down right rude.

Engage with people and change their minds, don't say their beliefs are irrelevant.
 
Liverpoolphil said:
It’s not legally binding is it ? It is just words whether spoken or written
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I've no idea of the legality or otherwise of it. Have we got any legal eagles on the forum that can tell us what constitutes a verbal or written contract? I was just pointing out that it was more than just something someone said during the referendum campaign.
 
ColchesterFC said:
I've no idea of the legality or otherwise of it. Have we got any legal eagles on the forum that can tell us what constitutes a verbal or written contract? I was just pointing out that it was more than just something someone said during the referendum campaign.
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Its not legally binding. Gina Miller certainly proved that via the courts.
 
Hobbit said:
...Gina Miller certainly proved that via the courts.
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Twaddle!

What (and ALL) Gina Miller 'proved' was who/what body could/couldn't invoke/revoke an action that would negate something Parliament had instigated - in that case invoking Article 50, which would revoke Parliament's ratification of the Lisbon Treaty! The ruling was that only Parliament could do that, not The Executive (Cabinet).

Neither main party stated HOW they would act to implement an 'Exit' vote. But implementing the result was committed to in both manifestos. Still not 'legally binding' though. Even items stated in The Queen's Speech are not 'legally binding' as circumstances could possibly change.

How voters would react to the reversal of a manifesto item is something a political party would need to consider very carefully before doing so!
 
Mudball said:
Bloody Project Fear Guardian now wants us to connect dots between US Trade deals, Brexit, Davies etc.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...siness-lobbyists-paid-for-trip-by-david-davis

Do they really think that the HM Govt would stoop so low as allowing lower quality food into this country in the name of Free Trade..
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I'm afraid the 'truth' and journalism only occassionally coincide . The only thing that seems to matter to those writing and broadcasting is self enhancement.

I sometimes watch the broadcast of Parliament, by the time the media has 'reported' the same debate I'm left thinking I was on another planet!

What is worrying is that people are forming opinions based on the hyped and slanted sound bites and quotes. The Press and some politicians still talk of grounded aircraft and blocked transport when it is some months since interim agreements were made for flight clearance and trucking.
 
drdel said:
I'm afraid the 'truth' and journalism only occassionally coincide . The only thing that seems to matter to those writing and broadcasting is self enhancement.

I sometimes watch the broadcast of Parliament, by the time the media has 'reported' the same debate I'm left thinking I was on another planet!

What is worrying is that people are forming opinions based on the hyped and slanted sound bites and quotes. The Press and some politicians still talk of grounded aircraft and blocked transport when it is some months since interim agreements were made for flight clearance and trucking.
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Saw this on WhatsApp.. and thought it sums up very well..

1548331459120.png
 
Last edited:
On the No Deal option remaining a 'must have' - as every negotiation must have a walk-away option.

Yes - that is absolutely true in most, if not all, commercial/business negotiations - but surely in most, if not all, commercial/business negotiations the 'walk away' takes you to your status quo - your fully understood and known 'as is' position - the position against which you have been assessing the 'new deal' risks and benefits. With leaving the EU that is not the case for the UK. If the UK walks away we do not go back to where we were - we go to a new position that we know little if anything about - indeed it is a new position about which we actually know very little and can only speculate about.

The No Deal option is - if anything - surely more equivalent to the employee seeking new terms and conditions of employment - and he tells the company that if they do not agree new Ts & Cs then he will have to leave the company (or they will require him to leave) - even although he knows going into negotiations that he does not have alternative or new employment waiting for him. He knows he will still have a mortgage and other bills to pay and a family to feed - but he is confident about getting a new job - even though he doesn't know how long it might take him and how painful the gap might be. Indeed he knows that he may have to cancel his golf club subs DD - and pay the early termination fee they will require - and he may even lose his house if he defaults on his mortgage payment enough times. But he won't tell his wife that - lest she stops him in his tracks - instead he'll pretend to her that all will be OK - all will be great.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
On the No Deal option remaining a 'must have' - as every negotiation must have a walk-away option.

Yes - that is absolutely true in most, if not all, commercial/business negotiations - but surely in most, if not all, commercial/business negotiations the 'walk away' takes you to your status quo - your fully understood and known 'as is' position - the position against which you have been assessing the 'new deal' risks and benefits. With leaving the EU that is not the case for the UK. If the UK walks away we do not go back to where we were - we go to a new position that we know little if anything about - indeed it is a new position about which we actually know very little and can only speculate about.

The No Deal option is - if anything - surely more equivalent to the employee seeking new terms and conditions of employment - and he tells the company that if they do not agree new Ts & Cs then he will have to leave the company (or they will require him to leave) - even although he knows going into negotiations that he does not have alternative or new employment waiting for him. He knows he will still have a mortgage and other bills to pay and a family to feed - but he is confident about getting a new job - even though he doesn't know how long it might take him and how painful the gap might be. Indeed he knows that he may have to cancel his golf club subs DD - and pay the early termination fee they will require - and he may even lose his house if he defaults on his mortgage payment enough times. But he won't tell his wife that - lest she stops him in his tracks - instead he'll pretend to her that all will be OK - all will be great.
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Got to just quote the post just in case you realize how silly it reads and deleted it.
 
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