Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

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Unfortunately, this answer, along with LT's answer earlier misses some rather important facts.

The huge agri-conglomerate EU is now a competitor, whereby it was a Partner.

Once we start factoring in subsidies to a free market economy, we'll never be able to stop. The Farmers will never be able to make their farms profitable as the cost of their products will be kept artificially low.

And the comparison to New Zealand is unfortunate. Before they went free market, they were in a Government backed, guaranteed price system whereby the Taxpayer effectively subsidised food production by allowing the Government to purchase all produce at a minimum price. Even if that minimum price was substantially higher (and it routinely was) than the market price. When they eventually dropped this policy, they were fortunate enough to have the worlds 2nd largest economy, coupled with the largest population effectively on their doorstep. China took everything they grew at a fair market price, allowing the NZ farms to invest in methods and machinery. We most certainly do not have this luxury. We'd be attempting to sell our produce into an already serviced market. We could only do this by reducing the price further, requiring more government subsidies. An ever spiralling debt cycle.
Farmers don't work in partnership between countries. They are bitter competitors. They barely work together locally, they are all fighting for the same piece of pie. Nothing has changed.

One of the benefits of withdrawing is that UK farming subsidy will no longer go to an olive farmer on Italy. It can be targeted at areas of UK farming that need it, justifiably hopefully, or where it benefits part of the UK for farming and beyond. The money should be better spent.
 
You're effectively proving the point I'm making. There are countries within the EU that can farm far more cheaply and efficiently than we can. Labour is cheaper. Their welfare standards aren't as rigorous.
The only way we'll be able to compete with them in the short/mid term is by matching or increasing the existing subsidies. This naive dream of weaning Farmers off subsidies will never happen. They'll go to the wall within 2 years. In order to compete we'll have to increase subsidies, especially in areas in which we are a net exporter.
Even the NFU, who represent an industry that largely voted for Brexit have stated that No Deal will be "Catastrophic".
The problem with current EU subsidies to Farmers its based on land area so that some of the very big farming organisations get the largest share of the money. The current plan from Government is to continue the present levels of subsidies for some years then change the qualifying criteria to how the land is managed. It appears many farmers prefer such a system.

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-presents-post-brexit-plans-for-agriculture/
 
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My money is on a postponement of article 50, a general election and then we'll try again with hopefully a new lot of politicians running it. As for who that will be then chuff knows.
In the spirit of fairness and democratic process, when the 'break-up' of the UK comes about as you wish in order for Scotland to gain its independence, is there any chance we little Englanders can have a vote this time?

Aye... very fair ten times as many English than Scots.:D

BTW 10% of Scots Population are English and the Scots Nat Ultras want to ban them from voting in Indy two.
I am totally against this for two reasons, first is that I consider anyone who choses to live in Scotland is naturally a Scot. The second is that many English Scots I know are independence supporters. The two folk who influenced me to support independence were both English.
 
Aye... very fair ten times as many English than Scots.:D

BTW 10% of Scots Population are English and the Scots Nat Ultras want to ban them from voting in Indy two.
I am totally against this for two reasons, first is that I consider anyone who choses to live in Scotland is naturally a Scot. The second is that many English Scots I know are independence supporters. The two folk who influenced me to support independence were both English.

Doon mate, I do agree with a lot of what you say on the Brexit thread, but you do seem to throw the Scottish angle in rather a lot. And whilst I appreciate that you are very passionate about it and of course Scotland is a massive part of the UK, there is a danger that a lot of people will not take on board some of your very good points if most posts about Brexit always hark back to Scotland.
 
Anna Sourbry is a classic example of a "self gratifying waster" . Her constituents voted to leave Europe. The People of this country voted to leave. But she sees fit to bang the pro EU drum. If she believes in it that strongly, she should of resigned as an MP. What was the point of having a vote if your MP disregards the will of there constituents.

I watched the Leavers trying to take back control when 'debating' with Sourbry on Westminster Green the other day.
I sincerely hope that that was not a vision of our brave new world.
 
I watched the Leavers trying to take back control when 'debating' with Sourbry on Westminster Green the other day.
I sincerely hope that that was not a vision of our brave new world.
You see Doon how does that add owt to this thread? And you wonder why your threads are ridiculed. You are a talking about the extreme village idiots day out. We had the same with Reece Mogg the other month.
 
The problem with current EU subsidies to Farmers its based on land area so that some of the very big farming organisations get the largest share of the money. The current plan from Government is to continue the present levels of subsidies for some years then change the qualifying criteria to how the land is managed. It appears many farmers prefer such a system.

https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-presents-post-brexit-plans-for-agriculture/
I've just read that article. Very informative. reading between the lines, what it actually says is that we're going to drop our current high welfare and hygiene standards, race to the bottom of the pile and allow sub standard products from countries like the US to flood our market. We're already looking to drop the independent meat inspections and allow individual abattoirs to control their own quality standards (that usually turns out well). The NFU is marketing British products based on these high standards (ironic really considering they resisted them at every step). What is the marketing ploy when we relax these standards?
 
I've just read that article. Very informative. reading between the lines, what it actually says is that we're going to drop our current high welfare and hygiene standards, race to the bottom of the pile and allow sub standard products from countries like the US to flood our market. We're already looking to drop the independent meat inspections and allow individual abattoirs to control their own quality standards (that usually turns out well). The NFU is marketing British products based on these high standards (ironic really considering they resisted them at every step). What is the marketing ploy when we relax these standards?
You really did read between the lines, I didn't see any of the points you have raised there. How about commenting on what it actually said on the proposed way of changing the way farming subsidies are used and how they would be more fairly distributed.
 
Aye... very fair ten times as many English than Scots.:D

BTW 10% of Scots Population are English and the Scots Nat Ultras want to ban them from voting in Indy two.
I am totally against this for two reasons, first is that I consider anyone who choses to live in Scotland is naturally a Scot. The second is that many English Scots I know are independence supporters. The two folk who influenced me to support independence were both English.

Did I miss that announcement that there is to be a second vote ?


Anyway a couple of questions for people

Can someone explain what John Bercow did the other and can one person have that much power ?

Also i see a lot of suggestions of funding been given to this that and the other when we leave - can people really see our government giving the same level of grants and subsidies etc as what the EU were giving out ?
 
Did I miss that announcement that there is to be a second vote ?


Anyway a couple of questions for people

Can someone explain what John Bercow did the other and can one person have that much power ?

Also i see a lot of suggestions of funding been given to this that and the other when we leave - can people really see our government giving the same level of grants and subsidies etc as what the EU were giving out ?
I've mentioned this a number of times here, the UK is a net contributor to the EU so we only get back money we pay in; the EU in reality gives us nothing, we actually pay in 9 Billion pounds more than we get back and that includes the rebate. Why should we not be able to fund them.
 
Anyway a couple of questions for people

Can someone explain what John Bercow did the other and can one person have that much power ?

It was a technicality. He allowed an amendment to be tabled which the MP's then voted on. If it was an awful amendment it would have been voted down but it got through. That says something.

The argument against is that the amendment should not have been allowed to have been voted on, it should have been dismissed before any vote on it. Funnily enough the people shouting Bercow down were against the amendment.

I'll emphasise again, he allowed the vote, nothing more. MP's took over after that.

His job is to speak up for the backbench MP, to prevent govt from steamrollering parliament and bypassing the elected MP's. He is probably getting it about right as far as I can see.
 
It was a technicality. He allowed an amendment to be tabled which the MP's then voted on. If it was an awful amendment it would have been voted down but it got through. That says something.

The argument against is that the amendment should not have been allowed to have been voted on, it should have been dismissed before any vote on it. Funnily enough the people shouting Bercow down were against the amendment.

I'll emphasise again, he allowed the vote, nothing more. MP's took over after that.

His job is to speak up for the backbench MP, to prevent govt from steamrollering parliament and bypassing the elected MP's. He is probably getting it about right as far as I can see.
Bercow did allow the amendment to be voted on even though it was against the normal rules of the house and he had been advised as such by the Clerk of the house, he had also refused other amendments to be voted. It does appear that the referee is not impartial.
 
I've mentioned this a number of times here, the UK is a net contributor to the EU so we only get back money we pay in; the EU in reality gives us nothing, we actually pay in 9 Billion pounds more than we get back and that includes the rebate. Why should we not be able to fund them.

That didn’t really answer my question - I know we are a net contributor and I know how much money we pay into the EU - that appears to be the stock answer when someone questions the amount of money our government gives out to people in the UK

Putting it simply - before EU subsidies and EU grants our government where not putting money into many areas of the UK , once we leave the EU and with our debt why is there this expectation that the UK government will continue to fund or give grants or subsidies areas the EU did ?

Does anyone really trust the government to fill the holes left behind when EU grants and subsidies have gone even with money not being paid into the EU
 
Bercow did allow the amendment to be voted on even though it was against the normal rules of the house and he had been advised as such by the Clerk of the house, he had also refused other amendments to be voted. It does appear that the referee is not impartial.
I think that is a very fair point. Ultimately it was the MP's that decided though. Maybe it should happen a little more?
 
Bercow did allow the amendment to be voted on even though it was against the normal rules of the house and he had been advised as such by the Clerk of the house, he had also refused other amendments to be voted. It does appear that the referee is not impartial.
Sorry, but what Bercow did was the very definition of impartial. he is the only person currently in the HOC that is able to hold his head high.
 
That didn’t really answer my question - I know we are a net contributor and I know how much money we pay into the EU - that appears to be the stock answer when someone questions the amount of money our government gives out to people in the UK

Putting it simply - before EU subsidies and EU grants our government where not putting money into many areas of the UK , once we leave the EU and with our debt why is there this expectation that the UK government will continue to fund or give grants or subsidies areas the EU did ?

Does anyone really trust the government to fill the holes left behind when EU grants and subsidies have gone even with money not being paid into the EU
Before EU subsidies! You are going back to the 1970s, how can we compare what may happen after Brexit to what happened then?

What exactly is this 'Debt' you mention, is it the National Debt? if it is then its there whether we are in or out the EU. Why do you believe we would not want to support industry with our own money. Using your own logic, why would the government not give grants and subsidies, if you dont trust your government to do this then vote for someone you think will.
 
Sorry, but what Bercow did was the very definition of impartial. he is the only person currently in the HOC that is able to hold his head high.
Please explain to me how that works then. He was advised not to allow it by the Clerk of the House and had disallowed others from proposing such amendments.
 
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