Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Hacker Khan]

I agree with Independently funded and intelligently compiled research, no matter what side it comes down on. I fundamentally disagree with dog whistle Think Tanks that hide their funding and compile research based solely on an already reached conclusion.. Fancy that.

Me too. But having said that I am liking the stuff put out by the European Research Group. I mean with a name like that how can they be anything but a completely independent non partisan research group building on years of practical and academic experience of the complexities of the EU?

 

[bluewolf]

Me too. But having said that I am liking the stuff put out by the European Research Group. I mean with a name like that how can they be anything but a completely independent non partisan research group building on years of practical and academic experience of the complexities of the EU?

If only someone had the balls to make it illegal to hide the funding of any "Research Group". Imagine what would happen when all those people who think that The ERG, TPA, Migration Watch etc are Independent suddenly realise that most of the funding is coming from American Alt Right groups. The same people who are funding Yaxley-Lennon and Farage (allegedly). Just imagine...

 

[IanM]

If only someone had the balls to make it illegal to hide the funding of any "Research Group". Imagine what would happen when all those people who think that The ERG, TPA, Migration Watch etc are Independent suddenly realise that most of the funding is coming from American Alt Right groups. The same people who are funding Yaxley-Lennon and Farage (allegedly). Just imagine...

Completely agree.... and the same applies to Left Wing Groups, Universities and Broadcasters of all hues....

 

[bluewolf]

Of course you do, just like I have the freedom to disagree with you. The least you can do in a discussion is listen to and consider an oposing view and give a reasoned response. There are a number of supporting reports linked in that article to substantial sources but if you prefer to dismiss it out of hand you can.

That logic doesn't work.. It's the same logic that is followed by the BBC currently. They appear to think that every discussion needs an opposing view. Even if that view is plainly wrong. Every time they discuss Climate Change, they simply have to have a Climate Change sceptic. This just serves to muddy the waters and stifle meaningful debate. Want to talk about the Moon Landings, the BBC have to have a Conspiracy Theorist on who claims it was all done on a sound stage in Arizona.. It's ludicrous..

 

[bluewolf]

Completely agree.... and the same applies to Left Wing Groups, Universities and Broadcasters of all hues....

100% agree. Make funding transparent and see them all scatter for the hills.. It would improve society within 10 years.. Just ask why they don't do it though...

 

[SocketRocket]

That logic doesn't work.. It's the same logic that is followed by the BBC currently. They appear to think that every discussion needs an opposing view. Even if that view is plainly wrong. Every time they discuss Climate Change, they simply have to have a Climate Change sceptic. This just serves to muddy the waters and stifle meaningful debate. Want to talk about the Moon Landings, the BBC have to have a Conspiracy Theorist on who claims it was all done on a sound stage in Arizona.. It's ludicrous..

Oh dear! The links used to give further supporting information were to research carried out by organisations like The House of Lords and Office for Budget Responsibility, How can you compare that to the scenarios you are suggesting. Unless you are saying they are on a parallel to the Flat Earth Society or the Elvis Works in a Rotherom Chip Shop group.

 

[bluewolf]

Oh dear! The links used to give further supporting information were to research carried out by organisations like The House of Lords and Office for Budget Responsibility, How can you compare that to the scenarios you are suggesting. Unless you are saying they are on a parallel to the Flat Earth Society or the Elvis Works in a Rotherom Chip Shop group.

Oh dear? Is there really a need to stoop to these attempted efforts at patronising me? It doesn't work you know. It just makes it look like you don't understand the argument.

Oh, and it's exceptionally easy to base flawed conclusions on good data. Especially when you're being paid to do so.

 

[Hobbit]

That's your opinion. I just choose to ignore them. Even when you post them up and ask me to read them.. I have the freedom to do that, don't I?

I don’t ignore them because I want to know both sides of the argument. How can you oppose an opposing view if you don’t know what it is?

“Know thyne enemy.”

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Anyway, back on topic, vote on May's deal confirmed for 15th Jan and her resignation confirmed for the 17th Jan. Article 50 will be postponed for a year on the 18th Jan and a general election called on the 20th Jan to take place in mid March with Javid as the leader of the Tory party.

If only....……
Done and dusted, I am afraid that we have a choice between a vote that will break up the UK or the disaster of a Blindfold Brexit.
May is asking the country [assuming she means the UK and not just England] to make common sense choices, neither makes the slightest bit of sense to me.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

If only....……
Done and dusted, I am afraid that we have a choice between a vote that will break up the UK or the disaster of a Blindfold Brexit.
May is asking the country [assuming she means the UK and not just England] to make common sense choices, neither makes the slightest bit of sense to me.

May isn’t asking us because we aren’t voting - the MP’s are “ all MP’s” not just English so get rid of the chip for a day

And whilst I don’t want to leave your post is nothing but scaremongering

How do you know the UK will break up ? And how do you know it will be a disaster

 

[bluewolf]

I don’t ignore them because I want to know both sides of the argument. How can you oppose an opposing view if you don’t know what it is?

“Know thyne enemy.”

Because migration watch isn't an opposing view in the same way that Flat Earthers aren't an opposing view to a discussion on synchronous orbits.

 

[SocketRocket]

Because migration watch isn't an opposing view in the same way that Flat Earthers aren't an opposing view to a discussion on synchronous orbits.

You are certainly ducking and diving the issue. I do give you the courtesy of reading your posts and even things you link to them. If you disagree with a post I made genuinely to reinforce a certain view then in my opinion it's reasonable to expect someone disagreeing with it to at least take the time to read it along with it's supporting data. Of course you are free to disagree with it but to disregard it out of hand and suggest its bottom scrapings is bigoted and not what I would expect from you. Anyhow, I will sadly accept your opinion.

 

[drdel]

C'mon guys surely there's some Brexit arguments still to be had; this tangent has had a couple of pages (largely bickering) and gone nowhere!

How about the 'No Deal' faction gaining traction?

 

[bluewolf]

You are certainly ducking and diving the issue. I do give you the courtesy of reading your posts and even things you link to them. If you disagree with a post I made genuinely to reinforce a certain view then in my opinion it's reasonable to expect someone disagreeing with it to at least take the time to read it along with it's supporting data. Of course you are free to disagree with it but to disregard it out of hand and suggest its bottom scrapings is bigoted and not what I would expect from you. Anyhow, I will sadly accept your opinion.

And now you insult me. I've been courteous enough not to insult you. I don't expect the same, but it's always nice.
And I didnt read your link as it's not the first time you've posted it. I fundamentally disagreed with its conclusions then and my mind hasn't been changed in the slightest since.
And now, bearing in mind that I've been patronised and insulted by you, I'll take my leave of this thread again. It was a poor decision to return to it anyway 👍

 

[Deleted member 15344]

You are certainly ducking and diving the issue. I do give you the courtesy of reading your posts and even things you link to them. If you disagree with a post I made genuinely to reinforce a certain view then in my opinion it's reasonable to expect someone disagreeing with it to at least take the time to read it along with it's supporting data. Of course you are free to disagree with it but to disregard it out of hand and suggest its bottom scrapings is bigoted and not what I would expect from you. Anyhow, I will sadly accept your opinion.

Weren’t you recently throwing your toys out because you believe someone was insulting you - I do believe you told the person to look in the mirror ?! Maybe you should do the same yourself - just being hypocritical

BE and Hobbit appear to be the two main more balanced non biased posters on the subject and they are able to post without throwing insults at people yet you want to throw words like bigot around. You are no better on here than SILH

 

[SocketRocket]

And now you insult me. I've been courteous enough not to insult you. I don't expect the same, but it's always nice.
And I didnt read your link as it's not the first time you've posted it. I fundamentally disagreed with its conclusions then and my mind hasn't been changed in the slightest since.
And now, bearing in mind that I've been patronised and insulted by you, I'll take my leave of this thread again. It was a poor decision to return to it anyway 👍

On reflection I apologise for the Bigot comment., it was unfair. Sorry.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Weren’t you recently throwing your toys out because you believe someone was insulting you - I do believe you told the person to look in the mirror ?! Maybe you should do the same yourself - just being hypocritical

BE and Hobbit appear to be the two main more balanced non biased posters on the subject and they are able to post without throwing insults at people yet you want to throw words like bigot around. You are no better on here than SILH

It's quite simple really.

I believe leaving the EU is an act of madness and deliberate national self-harm - an act that will damage the futures of my children and that will impact negatively most the poorest and most vulnerable of society.

I read here of the benefits leaving the EU will bring to the UK - but I still do not read and see that many benefits coming directly to the ordinary man and woman in the street - certainly not sufficient to counter the real and tangible negative impacts that will be felt - almost from the word go as tariffs get applied to imports and costs increase - never mind the risk to jobs that IDS does not seem to think exists.

The decision to leave was IMO based upon a false prospectus set out by Leave campaigns that fed off discontent with the EU fostered by decades of lies and exaggerations from the anti-EU press and those who detest every fibre of EU being. That the EU - even with the UK in a key influencing position - could have done some things differently to try and counter the ant-EU propaganda is certainly true - but I doubt it would have made that much difference. When a lie is told enough times it becomes the truth for some - a truth that is very difficult to counter (see the Bannon/Trump Lies Playbook) - and the EU-phobes would have continued their campaign whatever

Where the UK is today is pretty grim in it's divisions and anger - and I feat that that anger* has a long way to go no matter what outcome of the coming months as people hurt ever more and little benefit is felt or even perceived. And for what? The self-satisfaction of a relatively well-off minority of anti-EU and largely English UK nationalist ideologues seems just about all I can come up with. Not great and very sad and worrying (* and see the disgusting and vile abuse of Anna Soubry today - and those voicing that abuse will not have been on the Remain side of the argument but is symptomatic of what been unleashed)

I note that if in 10yrs tim e - or maybe even 5yrs time - Brexit is shown and found to have been a great success then great - because my children will be benefitting as will the poorest - and I will have been completely wrong. But I will be relieved to be so wrong.

 

[SocketRocket]

It's quite simple really.

I believe leaving the EU is an act of madness and deliberate national self-harm - an act that will damage the futures of my children and that will impact negatively most the poorest and most vulnerable of society.

I read here of the benefits leaving the EU will bring to the UK - but I still do not read and see that many benefits coming directly to the ordinary man and woman in the street - certainly not sufficient to counter the real and tangible negative impacts that will be felt - almost from the word go as tariffs get applied to imports and costs increase - never mind the risk to jobs that IDS does not seem to think exists.

The decision to leave was IMO based upon a false prospectus set out by Leave campaigns that fed off discontent with the EU fostered by decades of lies and exaggerations from the anti-EU press and those who detest every fibre of EU being. That the EU - even with the UK in a key influencing position - could have done some things differently to try and counter the ant-EU propaganda is certainly true - but I doubt it would have made that much difference. When a lie is told enough times it becomes the truth for some - a truth that is very difficult to counter (see the Bannon/Trump Lies Playbook) - and the EU-phobes would have continued their campaign whatever

Where the UK is today is pretty grim in it's divisions and anger - and I feat that that anger* has a long way to go no matter what outcome of the coming months as people hurt ever more and little benefit is felt or even perceived. And for what? The self-satisfaction of a relatively well-off minority of anti-EU and largely English UK nationalist ideologues seems just about all I can come up with. Not great and very sad and worrying (* and see the disgusting and vile abuse of Anna Soubry today - and those voicing that abuse will not have been on the Remain side of the argument but is symptomatic of what been unleashed)

We all understand exactly how you feel about Brexit SILH so there really is no need to reiterate it, doing so is just stoking up old sores. I admit to needing a dose of the same medicene, maybe its time to focus debate on the current situation rather than us regurgitating the past which cannot be altered.

 

[Old Skier]

We all understand exactly how you feel about Brexit SILH so there really is no need to reiterate it, doing so is just stoking up old sores. I admit to needing a dose of the same medicene, maybe its time to focus debate on the current situation rather than us regurgitating the past which cannot be altered.

To do that requires everyone to accept that we are leaving the EU, that includes the negotiating team, politicians and in particular the those representing the Labour Party.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

We all understand exactly how you feel about Brexit SILH so there really is no need to reiterate it, doing so is just stoking up old sores. I admit to needing a dose of the same medicene, maybe its time to focus debate on the current situation rather than us regurgitating the past which cannot be altered.

I do not disagree I only say it again to make clear the basis of my position. I note also and fully accept that there is unacceptable abuse directed at sucg as Farage and Rees-Mogg by some who voted to remain - again symptomatic of the anger unleashed by the bvote and the mess we are in.