Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[IanM]

Business minister Claire Perry warns that no-deal Brexit would be “catastrophic” and “a way of crashing the economy”. Greg Clarke - Business Secretary - today in HoC - "No-Deal should not be contemplated".

Seems like the government ministers closest to business, and what no-deal would likely hold, are not great fans of no-deal.

...and the German Car industry would instantly lose 25 billion euros in revenue over night... if we chose to enforce RECIPROCAL blocks.... (just for starters!) Wonder why the UK Government isnt negotiating properly..

......and still no word why you want to lose the UK inside a Federal Europe?

 

[pendodave]

Business minister Claire Perry warns that no-deal Brexit would be “catastrophic” and “a way of crashing the economy”. Greg Clarke - Business Secretary - today in HoC - "No-Deal should not be contemplated".

Seems like the government ministers closest to business, and what no-deal would likely hold, are not great fans of no-deal.

Of course business isn't happy, they've had an infinite supply of cheap pre-trained labour for the last 10 years and they kind of like it that way... I suspect that those selling their labour might see things slightly differently, but their voice trends not to be heard...

 

[Deleted Member 1156]

...and the German Car industry would instantly lose 25 billion euros in revenue over night... if we chose to enforce RECIPROCAL blocks.... (just for starters!) Wonder why the UK Government isnt negotiating properly..

......and still no word why you want to lose the UK inside a Federal Europe?

I've been saying exactly this all along Ian, the EU needs us almost as much as we need them. If we play hard ball instead of allowing them to bully us I'm pretty sure there would be huge amounts of pressure for them to back down and negotiate a sensible deal.

 

[Hobbit]

To be brutally honest, whilst I will always respect those that have served/are serving, as a concept I do not care that much about who has the final say with regards to defence forces and I can't get excited or angry about an EU defence force, certainly not the the extent that it would influence any vote on the matter. But fully appreciate others may feel more strongly about it having had a lot more experience of them than me.

If you reread my post I said "I don't agree with an EU defence force operating outside the EU borders..." In defence of the EU, if Russia came calling, why wouldn't we? Whatever the mechanism would be in those circumstances, I'm not overly bothered myself providing each member state had an equal say.

But do we want to continue to create another Iraq or Afghanistan and all the fallout from that again?

Isn't it somewhat cynical though that that defence force can be sent anywhere in the world that has a trade agreement with the EU. Is it in defence of trade, and the EU's own interests or is it for humanitarian reasons?

 

[Dando]

Business minister Claire Perry warns that no-deal Brexit would be “catastrophic” and “a way of crashing the economy”. Greg Clarke - Business Secretary - today in HoC - "No-Deal should not be contemplated".

Seems like the government ministers closest to business, and what no-deal would likely hold, are not great fans of no-deal.

I cant take anything Claire Perry takes seriously after her shambolic time looking after the railways.

Anyway, nice to see you still not getting involved in this thread!!!!

 

[Old Skier]

Labour's handing of this has been atrocious, but in the grand scheme of who has been responsible for the cluster we are currently in then Labour is not really at the top of the list and should not really deserve a 'in particular', you could have ended your sentence after the word politicians and it would have been fine . Concentrate on the mess made by the side who are in government and who have been calling all the shots. And if you are a supporter of said Tory party, have a long hard look at them instead of singling out the opposition. As some may argue blaming others for our own misfortune is kind of what led us to this position. Also you could make the argument that labour should represent the view of their members, whatever it is this week.

Not a lover of any political party at this time however my point is that Labour have made it clear that they will be voting against any deal even if it's gold plated. How can anyone successfully negotiate when it's obvious that there is this attitude going on.

Because of the Momentum support, mostly 18-40's, Corbyn has now got a major problem as he has been a staunch advocate of leaving the EU for years but his new base support are remainers.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Mmmm..a one sided article that doesnt answer the question....

But, using your response, here's a question. If you object to the UK in princple, (as Federal) why do you think that sending power even further away (from Scotland) is acceptable?

But, accepting your offer for the sake of respectful debate, (you might try it) having lived with the status quo for several hundred years it's all we know! And after this time, we share a common language (of sorts) and a highly integrated economic system.

And, as one of the most vociferous supporters of Remain on here, you STILL havent said why you think Federalism is OK.

Pretty obvious...….. I would prefer a fairer EU federalism to a distinctly unfair UK near federalism where Scotland's voice in parliament is constantly unheard.
In the EU we would be welcomed as an equal partner of 26 countries. In the UK, like NI and Wales, we are certainly not an equal partner.

 

[IanM]

Scotland unheard? Blair gave you a parliament, a bigger PC budget than England and MPs vote on Engish matters although the opposite doesnt apply. Wee Krankie rules eh? You even had a vote on leaving the UK all togther.... and the majority said no. Scotland was heard.... sorry you hate the outcome.

How would EU Federalism be better when the Scottish MEPs have an even lower proportional presence that the current combination of Holyrood and Westminster?

BUT - respect for saying you want Scotland to be a State within a Federal EU. Not sure why you want it, but hey thats cool...

 

[drdel]

In principle, I agree with most of that. Picking bits out of it would only be splitting hairs.

However, the EU defence and security policy; the EU army that already exists and operates under a central control. In the first instance, if a defence force is to be sent to, say, the Congo, the EU member states discuss it and if in agreement they send the force. If, whilst the force is there, the circumstances change and the scope of operations need to change the Commission doesn't need to ask the member states permission to change that scope.

Sorry but not in my name, or in the name of my country, do I agree to a unilateral decision made in Brussels to extend military operations. To be honest, I don't agree with having an EU defence force operating outside the EU's borders full stop! And what I certainly don't agree with is a far greater force solely controlled by Brussels, as proposed by Juncker and fully supported by Macron and, more recently, Merkel.

You wouldn't have to worry! By the time Brussels had beggared about and tried to herd/ coordinate the 27 nations ( and decided the UK military should standup) whatever 'problem' was happening would have ended or succeeded!
Modern warfare is about agilility - not a word I fear matches with the EU !!

 

[Doon frae Troon]

Scotland unheard? Blair gave you a parliament, a bigger PC budget than England and MPs vote on Engish matters although the opposite doesnt apply. Wee Krankie rules eh? You even had a vote on leaving the UK all togther.... and the majority said no. Scotland was heard.... sorry you hate the outcome.

How would EU Federalism be better when the Scottish MEPs have an even lower proportional presence that the current combination of Holyrood and Westminster?

BUT - respect for saying you want Scotland to be a State within a Federal EU. Not sure why you want it, but hey thats cool...

Sorry you lost the argument with Wee Krankie…….disappointed in you.

 

[drdel]

Pretty obvious...….. I would prefer a fairer EU federalism to a distinctly unfair UK near federalism where Scotland's voice in parliament is constantly unheard.
In the EU we would be welcomed as an equal partner of 26 countries. In the UK, like NI and Wales, we are certainly not an equal partner.

That is the best example of a "chip-on-the-shoulder! rant I've read in a while. With devolved powers and enhanced funding Scotland enjoys positive discrimination!

 

[IanM]

Sorry you lost the argument with Wee Krankie…….disappointed in you.

The absence of a resonse to any of the rest confirms not.

 

[ColchesterFC]

Pretty obvious...….. I would prefer a fairer EU federalism to a distinctly unfair UK near federalism where Scotland's voice in parliament is constantly unheard.
In the EU we would be welcomed as an equal partner of 26 countries. In the UK, like NI and Wales, we are certainly not an equal partner.

I'm not sure by what measure you'd be an equal partner. Based on the population of Scotland you'd get approximately 13 or 14 MEPs out of a total of over 700. Why would Scotland's voice be heard more when you're 5.5 million people out of 450+ million rather than 80 million?

 

[Doon frae Troon]

That is the best example of a "chip-on-the-shoulder! rant I've read in a while. With devolved powers and enhanced funding Scotland enjoys positive discrimination!

We do not have devolved power we only have certain powers devolved that Westminster deem appropriate.
Enhanced funding, well that is up for serious debate and not what you believe in the Tory press BritishBC headlines.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The thing is SILH, I voted out but I was 50/50 when I walked into the polling booth and I have to say that reading the hundreds of posts you have made on the issue, if anything, they have hardened my resolve to want to leave.From not accepting a democratic decision to the insults we leavers have been subjected to by you, I would definitely vote to leave a second time because you, and many like you have insulted our intelligence over and over. The lies, and counter lies, went both ways when we voted to leave it was a binary choice and had the remainers not decided to insult us with "project fear" then we might well have decided differently but then I blame Cameron for failing in his negotiations, the Eu for treating us like mugs and Parliament for abrogating their responsibilities and voting for a referendum.

Surely there is a lot of what you say also from people who voted Leave - you point to what SILH says but then you could easily point to another promiment poster on here on the Leave side who has at times been as aggressive and insulting towards people who voted remain - and surely you as a strong person arent that swayed by one person view and opinion ? Surely not ?

You mention lies about "project fear" - well can it be judge lies yet because we havent left ? was it not a forecast ? Same as the promises of the big red bus ?

The problem for me with the whole issue is that people nowadays can't accept a vote that doesn't go their way and I've rarely seen anyone interviewed who's wanted a second vote give a reason that doesn't come down to "so that we can reverse the decision as I didn't agree with it"

I thought that being in a democracy people are able to voice their opinion - and if people want a second vote because they think they think the result is bad for the country surely its their democratic right to demand another one - just because one vote has happened doesnt mean thats the end.

Clearly, to me anyway, the way that the government have handled it has been a mess, either deliberately so as to try and not really leave, or that they just dont have any ability to negotiate, and also because it should have been done from day one by a leaver so that their heart was really in it. I believe that we are seeing the end of the EU as we know it, there are other countries who's population would vote to leave and with the ever more federalism that the unelected powerbase intend to follow I certainly think other countries will eventually follow our lead. I'm for a " Common Market" , indeed I voted for it back in the day, and I understand the need for a limited amount of federalism to ensure fair play but these people have, and are, going too far and I firmly believe we will prosper in the long run.

All the "leavers" who were at the forefront of the campaign hid away when it came to action - they were all words but no bottle to go through with it. May took up the mantle to try and do the best she can and since then she has been hampered every step of the way and once again promiment Leavers hide away.

Maybe I'm being rather simplistic in my views but think that the EU could have, and probably still could, stop us leaving by offering to resolve many of the issues Cameron tried to get them to do and then suggest a 2nd vote rather than pander to remainers wanting a 2nd vote just because they didn't like the 1st one

Yes the EU could just do everything we say - but why should they ? We are the ones who want to walk away


Overall for me its been a mess from day one

From Cameron trying to sort things out

To the poor smear campaigning on both sides with neither being mature enough to provide facts

To the vote which was that close it was always going to cause issues

To the negotiations with people like JOhnson running away and sniping from the background - countless people resigning and undermining the whole process

Said it before - its a complete shambles and we are an embaressment right now as a country

Look at these Leave campaigners - shouting insults at MP's


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46789601

 

[Old Skier]

Hopefully that's not short term memory lose. The remainers were equally as bad when they abused RM children while they were trying to get to school.

Any form of harassment by yobs like this is unacceptable but it is strange that the latest incident has caused so much media and parliamentary coverage while the RM incident blew over within hours.

 

[IanM]

Understand that Phil...............I think the "what" is clear ....I don't suppose we'll ever find out the "why."

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Hopefully that's not short term memory lose. The remainers were equally as bad when they abused RM children while they were trying to get to school.

Any form of harassment by yobs like this is unacceptable but it is strange that the latest incident has caused so much media and parliamentary coverage while the RM incident blew over within hours.

Who is RM ?

Understand that Phil...............I think the "what" is clear ....I don't suppose we'll ever find out the "why."

Sorry im confused ?( not hard )

 

[Hacker Khan]

Hopefully that's not short term memory lose. The remainers were equally as bad when they abused RM children while they were trying to get to school.

Any form of harassment by yobs like this is unacceptable but it is strange that the latest incident has caused so much media and parliamentary coverage while the RM incident blew over within hours.

The tragic incident with Jo Cox probably means MPs are a little sensitive to right wing extremists hassling them?

 

[Blue in Munich]

Surely there is a lot of what you say also from people who voted Leave - you point to what SILH says but then you could easily point to another promiment poster on here on the Leave side who has at times been as aggressive and insulting towards people who voted remain - and surely you as a strong person arent that swayed by one person view and opinion ? Surely not ?

You mention lies about "project fear" - well can it be judge lies yet because we havent left ? was it not a forecast ? Same as the promises of the big red bus ?



I thought that being in a democracy people are able to voice their opinion - and if people want a second vote because they think they think the result is bad for the country surely its their democratic right to demand another one - just because one vote has happened doesnt mean thats the end.

Absolutely ridiculous comment Phil; on that basis we'd have a General Election every week because the losers don't like the result of last week's General Election.

All the "leavers" who were at the forefront of the campaign hid away when it came to action - they were all words but no bottle to go through with it. May took up the mantle to try and do the best she can and since then she has been hampered every step of the way and once again promiment Leavers hide away.



Yes the EU could just do everything we say - but why should they ? We are the ones who want to walk away


Overall for me its been a mess from day one

From Cameron trying to sort things out

To the poor smear campaigning on both sides with neither being mature enough to provide facts

To the vote which was that close it was always going to cause issues

To the negotiations with people like JOhnson running away and sniping from the background - countless people resigning and undermining the whole process

Said it before - its a complete shambles and we are an embaressment right now as a country

Look at these Leave campaigners - shouting insults at MP's


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46789601

Whereas a campaign and posters based on the tagline "Bollocks to Brexit" is perfectly civilised and acceptable?