Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

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That's an interesting point.
The assertion is that, as population rises artificially, the tax take of the UK doesn't match the increase and then there'll be a significant imbalance, resulting in shortages/deficiencies in the infrastructure..

I'm at work so can't really look, but wouldn't it be interesting if someone looked at the Tax take of the UK in 2000/2001 then in 2017/2018. Then compared this total to the population increase. Then we could work out just how thin the money is spread. I mean, it has to have gone down, or else all these assertions would effectively be lies, wouldn't they?
The attached article and it's links should help with understand how immigration has affected the economy. Before dismissing it as a Tory right wing piece of propaganda give it a read.
https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/key-topics/economics
 
Yup, the big Ponzi scheme is ready to burst. Thank God for immigrants. We'd be in real trouble if they hadn't come in and started paying taxes!!!

I suppose the real issue is Government debt. The real reason that money isn't being spent on infrastructure is nothing to do with immigration levels, and everything to do with the vast amount of debt we are in since the Banking crisis. Immigration is actually helping to keep us afloat. The increased Tax Take from an increasing population is stopping us sliding back into recession. #huganimmigranttoday
Really. Nothing to do with Gordon's borrowing frenzy and increases in welfare costs. Can you show some evidence that immigration is keeping us afloat other than soundbites please.
 
Half through reading your post I was about to post up “tax breaks” for reinvestment and training.

But buying locally...? You’ll be voting for Brexit next:eek:
I'd never vote for it, but seeing as it's happening, only a fool wouldn't prepare for it.. ;-)
 
The attached article and it's links should help with understand how immigration has affected the economy. Before dismissing it as a Tory right wing piece of propaganda give it a read.
https://www.migrationwatchuk.org/key-topics/economics
No disrespect to yourself, but I wouldn't wipe my backside on anything produced by Migration watch. Any piece of evidence that is produced with a conclusion already reached is tainted beyond repair.. But thanks for posting..
 
Really. Nothing to do with Gordon's borrowing frenzy and increases in welfare costs. Can you show some evidence that immigration is keeping us afloat other than soundbites please.
The post itself was slightly lighthearted.
Ironically, if you chart Government debt over the last few hundred years then the significant rises have all coincided with times of War. From American Independance, Napoleonic, World War 1, 2 and then the Middle East. At all other tmes, Debt has been decreasing.. I wonder what lesson we can learn from that?
 
No disrespect to yourself, but I wouldn't wipe my backside on anything produced by Migration watch. Any piece of evidence that is produced with a conclusion already reached is tainted beyond repair.. But thanks for posting..
So you cant be bothered to read it or the associated links to research groups due to your personal prejudice. I am honestly dissapointed in you.
 
So you cant be bothered to read it or the associated links to research groups due to your personal prejudice. I am honestly dissapointed in you.
I most definitely have a personal prejudice against Migration Watch. I have similar prejudices against a number of Think tanks that hide their funding. Migration Watch are NOT independant in the slightest. They have vested interests in disinformation and outright lies. They bend statistics and dispute good research. They are a tumour on this Country and I'm equally disappointed that you choose to legitimise them.

Oh, and you can take groups like The Tax Payers Alliance with you as well.. They're everything that is wrong with this Country...
 
Both sides of the fence don't agree with research or articles that they don't like the findings of... fancy that!
I agree with Independently funded and intelligently compiled research, no matter what side it comes down on. I fundamentally disagree with dog whistle Think Tanks that hide their funding and compile research based solely on an already reached conclusion.. Fancy that.
 
Yup, the big Ponzi scheme is ready to burst. Thank God for immigrants. We'd be in real trouble if they hadn't come in and started paying taxes!!!

I suppose the real issue is Government debt. The real reason that money isn't being spent on infrastructure is nothing to do with immigration levels, and everything to do with the vast amount of debt we are in since the Banking crisis. Immigration is actually helping to keep us afloat. The increased Tax Take from an increasing population is stopping us sliding back into recession. #huganimmigranttoday
You have to factor in all kinds of things though. You have 18 years of inflation for a start. The cost of providing public services per person has risen massively and far beyond inflation too, mainly because we expect modern, high tech services now. You can’t have a classroom with a blackboard these days and yet I was taught in a building made from asbestos - I am not kidding. Every child now has a computer. When I was at school there was one computer. It was in the technical college 12 miles away. I beat it at noughts and crosses. We expect hospitals with high tech life saving equipment and staff trained to use it. We expect modern, warm, well lit, archictural public buildings. Instant information. Of course we should have all these things and more but anyone over 50 can relate to a time when public service was very different. So the burden on the tax pot is much higher, massively higher per person than it was in 2000.

I did though, used to believe that the politicians deserved some credit. When I was a kid, very few of my friends mums went out to work. Now, almost every mum does. Two wages per household is the norm. In addition to this we have all the immigration. Millions more people in work and yet, in my lifetime unemployment has always been between 1.5 and 3m. I wondered how they did it. And when you work out how, you realise why politicians quite like immigration. Simply put, jobs create jobs. If a company opens, they need offices. Someone has to build it. They need staff who need desks and chairs and computers and a local sandwich bar for lunch and transport links to get to work etc etc. And what do jobs create? Tax. This is why we are a services based nation. It’s basically lazy politics increasing the population to create funding but the problem is, it isn’t infinite. At some point we need to get back to responsible policies that create jobs and provide decent public services for a sustainable population.
 
Both sides of the fence don't agree with research or articles that they don't like the findings of... fancy that!

Surely it appears to be the case that one “article” is what it seems from an independent source with no agendas and just gives facts

And the other is far from independent and is from a group that have already made conclusions and are trying to prove it
 
I most definitely have a personal prejudice against Migration Watch. I have similar prejudices against a number of Think tanks that hide their funding. Migration Watch are NOT independant in the slightest. They have vested interests in disinformation and outright lies. They bend statistics and dispute good research. They are a tumour on this Country and I'm equally disappointed that you choose to legitimise them.

Oh, and you can take groups like The Tax Payers Alliance with you as well.. They're everything that is wrong with this Country...
Lets burn their books then. The article uses many supporting links to organisations like The House of Lords and the OBR. There is a wealth of this supporting material offered but you suggest they form opinions without evidence.
 
Skim Reading that and it seems the financial affect on the UK from migrants is virtually nil ? And indeed a good deal appear to contribute more than they take out ?

Did it cover asylum seekers etc as well

Skim reading potentially misses a number of aspects.

Immigration from the EU; depending on which report you read the contribution from EU migrants hovers either side of 0.0 dependent on which way the wind is blowing in any given year.

Immigration from non-EU, which includes illegals; is hugely negative. It must be emphasised that legal immigration from non-EU countries has exactly the same effect on the economy as EU immigration.

I've employed a number of staff from non-EU countries. The paperwork is massive! But at the end of the day they still pay tax as we do, and should be considered as another worker on equal footing as everyone else.
 
You have to factor in all kinds of things though. You have 18 years of inflation for a start. The cost of providing public services per person has risen massively and far beyond inflation too, mainly because we expect modern, high tech services now. You can’t have a classroom with a blackboard these days and yet I was taught in a building made from asbestos - I am not kidding. Every child now has a computer. When I was at school there was one computer. It was in the technical college 12 miles away. I beat it at noughts and crosses. We expect hospitals with high tech life saving equipment and staff trained to use it. We expect modern, warm, well lit, archictural public buildings. Instant information. Of course we should have all these things and more but anyone over 50 can relate to a time when public service was very different. So the burden on the tax pot is much higher, massively higher per person than it was in 2000.

I did though, used to believe that the politicians deserved some credit. When I was a kid, very few of my friends mums went out to work. Now, almost every mum does. Two wages per household is the norm. In addition to this we have all the immigration. Millions more people in work and yet, in my lifetime unemployment has always been between 1.5 and 3m. I wondered how they did it. And when you work out how, you realise why politicians quite like immigration. Simply put, jobs create jobs. If a company opens, they need offices. Someone has to build it. They need staff who need desks and chairs and computers and a local sandwich bar for lunch and transport links to get to work etc etc. And what do jobs create? Tax. This is why we are a services based nation. It’s basically lazy politics increasing the population to create funding but the problem is, it isn’t infinite. At some point we need to get back to responsible policies that create jobs and provide decent public services for a sustainable population.

Unsurprisingly, I 100% agree with what you've written. I've been saying much the same for the last few years. Not one person could make a coherent argument for uncontrolled immigration. However, if you want to control it, then you'd damn well better make some fundamental changes to the Economic landscape that we live in. If we just stop immigration today, we'd be bankrupt within a generation. Our Politicians have chased the easy money for far too long. If we want to improve the quality of life for everyone and not just the top 1%, then we're going to have to adopt more socially responsible policies..
 
Surely it appears to be the case that one “article” is what it seems from an independent source with no agendas and just gives facts

And the other is far from independent and is from a group that have already made conclusions and are trying to prove it

I agree.... if only "independence" was clear cut.
 
That's your opinion. I just choose to ignore them. Even when you post them up and ask me to read them.. I have the freedom to do that, don't I?
Of course you do, just like I have the freedom to disagree with you. The least you can do in a discussion is listen to and consider an oposing view and give a reasoned response. There are a number of supporting reports linked in that article to substantial sources but if you prefer to dismiss it out of hand you can.
 
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