Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

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Hobbit said:
Spain considering dropping VAT for British tourists visiting the Canaries, post-Brexit.

"SPAIN TOURISM HOTSPOT COULD CANCEL TAX FOR BRITISH TOURISTS AMID BREXIT FEARS

BRITISH tourists could be exempt from paying ‘VAT’ in the Canary Islands in a bid to battle Brexit.
President of the Spanish islands Fernando Clavijo said the measure would make the Canaries more competitive and help them achieve ‘better results’."
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That sounds like one of those good 'Yes Minister' ideas which will probably cost a lot of money to implement and become an administration nightmare,
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Do you mean rules and regulations that protect us as human beings - yep happy with that 👍 unless there is some rule you aren’t happy with ?

I certainly feel independent, have a voice , have a vote , we make our own laws to live by.

Is any country really every “truely independent “ - will always be some sort of regulation that all need to follow
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Hobbit said:
In the last 20 years there's been just over 4,200 EU laws implemented into UK law. The UK, your parliament, has opposed 13% to them = 530+. The UK government, on your behalf, opposed 530+, in the European court, and lost 82% of those cases = 434 laws implemented that the UK government, acting on your behalf, didn't want.

Number 1 daughter was part of a team of barristers that has written a number of the laws that are now on the statute books, e.g. car scrappage scheme & Post Office sell off. In each and every case she will have spent time in Brussels ensuring that the laws her team were writing complied with EU laws. No member state writes its own laws in isolation, i.e. they must comply with EU laws. So which is the higher court of law? Can the UK truly pass its own laws?

Its one thing complying with manufacturing laws and standards, the UK has been doing that for different standards around the world for donkey's years, e.g. manufacturing laws in America. You can't export to America if your product doesn't comply with U.S. laws. But there's are differences between criminal law, civil law and manufacturing laws. And its in criminal and civil laws were there's always been some areas of difference and conflict.

"Laws that protect you" Do you think that the EU courts are right to step in when your government, through the UK courts, wants to deport a terrorist, and the EU stops that deportation?
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Thanks Brian, you just saved me a bit of time. (y)
 
Hobbit said:
In the last 20 years there's been just over 4,200 EU laws implemented into UK law. The UK, your parliament, has opposed 13% to them = 530+. The UK government, on your behalf, opposed 530+, in the European court, and lost 82% of those cases = 434 laws implemented that the UK government, acting on your behalf, didn't want.

Number 1 daughter was part of a team of barristers that has written a number of the laws that are now on the statute books, e.g. car scrappage scheme & Post Office sell off. In each and every case she will have spent time in Brussels ensuring that the laws her team were writing complied with EU laws. No member state writes its own laws in isolation, i.e. they must comply with EU laws. So which is the higher court of law? Can the UK truly pass its own laws?

Its one thing complying with manufacturing laws and standards, the UK has been doing that for different standards around the world for donkey's years, e.g. manufacturing laws in America. You can't export to America if your product doesn't comply with U.S. laws. But there's are differences between criminal law, civil law and manufacturing laws. And its in criminal and civil laws were there's always been some areas of difference and conflict.

"Laws that protect you" Do you think that the EU courts are right to step in when your government, through the UK courts, wants to deport a terrorist, and the EU stops that deportation?
Click to expand...

I can see why some people do not like that. But for me it depends on what those laws are. Are they laws that increase workers rights, increase environmental protection or are they laws that hand control of crucial domestic policy to the EU?

I do not have a problem with the EU keeping whoever our current government is honest. I do not have a problem with them curbing the excesses of ring wing free market capitalism or the more socialist left wing Corbyn politics. Yes if it is clear the EU is becoming some kind of federated super state in which no individual countries have a say in any laws and they are imposing the Euro, siestas and liederhosen on us then by all means pull out. The EU is a long way from perfect, but it is also a long way from controlling everything we do in the UK. Despite what some newspapers say.
 
Hacker Khan said:
I can see why some people do not like that. But for me it depends on what those laws are. Are they laws that increase workers rights, increase environmental protection or are they laws that hand control of crucial domestic policy to the EU?

I do not have a problem with the EU keeping whoever our current government is honest. I do not have a problem with them curbing the excesses of ring wing free market capitalism or the more socialist left wing Corbyn politics. Yes if it is clear the EU is becoming some kind of federated super state in which no individual countries have a say in any laws and they are imposing the Euro, siestas and liederhosen on us then by all means pull out. The EU is a long way from perfect, but it is also a long way from controlling everything we do in the UK. Despite what some newspapers say.
Click to expand...

There's the thing 'big business' tells us how wonderful membership is yet will do everything it can to avoid it's 'obligations' ... Like applying workers rights and environmental protection...
 
Hacker Khan said:
I can see why some people do not like that. But for me it depends on what those laws are. Are they laws that increase workers rights, increase environmental protection or are they laws that hand control of crucial domestic policy to the EU?

I do not have a problem with the EU keeping whoever our current government is honest. I do not have a problem with them curbing the excesses of ring wing free market capitalism or the more socialist left wing Corbyn politics. Yes if it is clear the EU is becoming some kind of federated super state in which no individual countries have a say in any laws and they are imposing the Euro, siestas and liederhosen on us then by all means pull out. The EU is a long way from perfect, but it is also a long way from controlling everything we do in the UK. Despite what some newspapers say.
Click to expand...
So you want an outside agency to control the decisions made by our democratically elected governments. Unbelievable!
 
Hacker Khan said:
I can see why some people do not like that. But for me it depends on what those laws are. Are they laws that increase workers rights, increase environmental protection or are they laws that hand control of crucial domestic policy to the EU?

I do not have a problem with the EU keeping whoever our current government is honest. I do not have a problem with them curbing the excesses of ring wing free market capitalism or the more socialist left wing Corbyn politics. Yes if it is clear the EU is becoming some kind of federated super state in which no individual countries have a say in any laws and they are imposing the Euro, siestas and liederhosen on us then by all means pull out. The EU is a long way from perfect, but it is also a long way from controlling everything we do in the UK. Despite what some newspapers say.
Click to expand...
Sums it up very well - I don’t trust our governments in any shape or form and believe there are a lot of human rights and workers rights that have been brought in by the EU that our government wouldn’t have bothered with. It’s the same with EU grants - lots of areas around the UK have been able to regenerate and flourish due to grants from the EU - the counter argument is “well it’s our money anyway” - my question is why didn’t our government spend the money there ? Why did it need EU grants all over the UK - mainly because the governments over the past couple of decades are so “London Focused”
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Sums it up very well - I don’t trust our governments in any shape or form and believe there are a lot of human rights and workers rights that have been brought in by the EU that our government wouldn’t have bothered with. It’s the same with EU grants - lots of areas around the UK have been able to regenerate and flourish due to grants from the EU - the counter argument is “well it’s our money anyway” - my question is why didn’t our government spend the money there ? Why did it need EU grants all over the UK - mainly because the governments over the past couple of decades are so “London Focused”
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When grants are given by the EU they have to be matched by the government of the country being given the grant so our government has assisted by, a. Being an nett contributor to the EU and b. By matching any grant given by he EU so your argument seems a little screwed.
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Sums it up very well - I don’t trust our governments in any shape or form and believe there are a lot of human rights and workers rights that have been brought in by the EU that our government wouldn’t have bothered with. It’s the same with EU grants - lots of areas around the UK have been able to regenerate and flourish due to grants from the EU - the counter argument is “well it’s our money anyway” - my question is why didn’t our government spend the money there ? Why did it need EU grants all over the UK - mainly because the governments over the past couple of decades are so “London Focused”
Click to expand...

IMO one of the biggest issues in the general area of employment and 'human rights' is zero hours contracts: yet I don't see the wonderful EU doing anything about it and as an UK citizen I'm not sure that what I and millions of other UK people think will have any influence on Brussels.
 
drdel said:
IMO one of the biggest issues in the general area of employment and 'human rights' is zero hours contracts: yet I don't see the wonderful EU doing anything about it and as an UK citizen I'm not sure that what I and millions of other UK people think will have any influence on Brussels.
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Sorry but what do zero hour contracts have to do with the EU in the UK ? the government if they wish can outlaw them as have many countries in the EU ? The EU I understand have recommended changes to protect people on zero hour contracts but still needs the UK government to do something about them.
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Sorry but what do zero hour contracts have to do with the EU in the UK ? the government if they wish can outlaw them as have many countries in the EU ? The EU I understand have recommended changes to protect people on zero hour contracts but still needs the UK government to do something about them.
Click to expand...

Or, perhaps 'big business' could buck the trend and do the right thing for its workforce...
 
Liverpoolphil said:
Sums it up very well - I don’t trust our governments in any shape or form and believe there are a lot of human rights and workers rights that have been brought in by the EU that our government wouldn’t have bothered with. It’s the same with EU grants - lots of areas around the UK have been able to regenerate and flourish due to grants from the EU - the counter argument is “well it’s our money anyway” - my question is why didn’t our government spend the money there ? Why did it need EU grants all over the UK - mainly because the governments over the past couple of decades are so “London Focused”
Click to expand...

The electorate are supposed to keep the government honest. And the governments have to be (reasonably) honest to win the votes they need to continue to govern. All this excesses of governments is rubbish. First of all people chose that government based on a political desire for a particular path/manifesto, and if the government doesn't follow through on its promises they feel it at the next election. At one time you might end up with a right wing government, and at other times a left wing government. If you don't like the policies those governments bring in, just remember it was chosen by the British people. You should at least respect the democracy that led to the election of that government.

But as an aside, who keeps the EU honest? The UN? The UK electorate don't keep the EU honest, even in the EU elections. Look at how many MEP's each country has, e.g. Germany has 99 whereas somewhere like Ireland has 12. There's 171 MEP's between Germany and France, and I wonder why so many people say Germany and France run the EU. Well that's democratic isn't it! Personally I'd like to see one country one vote but can you see Germany and France giving up the control they have.

EU grants getting spent in poor areas...? Get yourself up to the northeast of England and ask the question of the 75,000 British Steel and ICI workers, on Teesside alone, what the EU did for them whilst it was giving grants to move manufacturing to the Netherlands. Have a look at how much money made its way to the NE for regeneration. The UK has to match the EU grant, which currently is £1.5 billion.

The EU as a trading bloc, yes. As a governing body over the UK, no way! On the one hand you've just posted that the UK can make its own laws etc yet in the post above, in support of HK's post, you say you want governance from the EU because you don't trust the UK's governments. You seem confused...
 
I think I'll become an MEP.
I will get £92,460 annual salary plus pension
plus
£47,436 annual general expenses (NO RECEIPTS REQUIRED*)
plus
Free first class travel to and from Brussels/Strasbourg
plus
£280 daily while working in Brussels/Strasbourg (£30,000 annual average)

Total
£170,000 (not counting first class travel expenses or £256,000 to pay for staff)

There are 751 MEPS

Total cost per MEP.... Eu 2BN EACH

And who pays for their gravy train salaries?

*Calls to make expenses more transparent were rejected by the EU court.......no surprise there.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/sep/25/mep-expenses-eu-court-ruling

Having said that, apparently, they do work hard........

2007_07_16_parlament_europejski_bruksela_21.jpg
 
Hobbit said:
The electorate are supposed to keep the government honest. And the governments have to be (reasonably) honest to win the votes they need to continue to govern. All this excesses of governments is rubbish. First of all people chose that government based on a political desire for a particular path/manifesto, and if the government doesn't follow through on its promises they feel it at the next election. At one time you might end up with a right wing government, and at other times a left wing government. If you don't like the policies those governments bring in, just remember it was chosen by the British people. You should at least respect the democracy that led to the election of that government.

But as an aside, who keeps the EU honest? The UN? The UK electorate don't keep the EU honest, even in the EU elections. Look at how many MEP's each country has, e.g. Germany has 99 whereas somewhere like Ireland has 12. There's 171 MEP's between Germany and France, and I wonder why so many people say Germany and France run the EU. Well that's democratic isn't it! Personally I'd like to see one country one vote but can you see Germany and France giving up the control they have.

EU grants getting spent in poor areas...? Get yourself up to the northeast of England and ask the question of the 75,000 British Steel and ICI workers, on Teesside alone, what the EU did for them whilst it was giving grants to move manufacturing to the Netherlands. Have a look at how much money made its way to the NE for regeneration. The UK has to match the EU grant, which currently is £1.5 billion.

The EU as a trading bloc, yes. As a governing body over the UK, no way! On the one hand you've just posted that the UK can make its own laws etc yet in the post above, in support of HK's post, you say you want governance from the EU because you don't trust the UK's governments. You seem confused...
Click to expand...

I'd like the best of both worlds. In that we have a lot of flexibility to control how the majority of society operates but, as part of being a member of the trading bloc, we also adhere to some of the rules that apply across the whole trading bloc. Some may argue that is what we have now and we are throwing it away. Some others may feel that we have already lost control and can do better on our own. We'll see.....

Also as an aside I'd also argue the greatest threat to democracy is not another referendum but the manipulation of news and information by other organisations and countries with a vested interest in the outcome. It is probably at a pretty low level at the moment, but unless it is checked it could well mean referendums or elections are based on little factual information at all. But that's probably another conversation.
 
Hobbit said:
The electorate are supposed to keep the government honest. And the governments have to be (reasonably) honest to win the votes they need to continue to govern. All this excesses of governments is rubbish. First of all people chose that government based on a political desire for a particular path/manifesto, and if the government doesn't follow through on its promises they feel it at the next election. At one time you might end up with a right wing government, and at other times a left wing government. If you don't like the policies those governments bring in, just remember it was chosen by the British people. You should at least respect the democracy that led to the election of that government.

But as an aside, who keeps the EU honest? The UN? The UK electorate don't keep the EU honest, even in the EU elections. Look at how many MEP's each country has, e.g. Germany has 99 whereas somewhere like Ireland has 12. There's 171 MEP's between Germany and France, and I wonder why so many people say Germany and France run the EU. Well that's democratic isn't it! Personally I'd like to see one country one vote but can you see Germany and France giving up the control they have.

EU grants getting spent in poor areas...? Get yourself up to the northeast of England and ask the question of the 75,000 British Steel and ICI workers, on Teesside alone, what the EU did for them whilst it was giving grants to move manufacturing to the Netherlands. Have a look at how much money made its way to the NE for regeneration. The UK has to match the EU grant, which currently is £1.5 billion.

The EU as a trading bloc, yes. As a governing body over the UK, no way! On the one hand you've just posted that the UK can make its own laws etc yet in the post above, in support of HK's post, you say you want governance from the EU because you don't trust the UK's governments. You seem confused...
Click to expand...

Not confused at all - we do and we can create our own laws , is the UK constitution not create by ourselves ? Our government can ammend laws etc that we abide by etc ? Is that not right

And then there are rules and regulations - Working rights , environmental rights etc with the framework all detailed by the EU but each country has a say and the MEP’s involved etc -

Is it not two seperate frameworks ? Laws and rights ?

We are part of a trade bloc so must adhere to the rights of the workers within that trade bloc but the laws each person must life by are set down by the UK ? Yes ?
 
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