Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Hobbit]

All the lady from the met said was '

The UK's policing co-operation with the EU was based on a framework of "legal instruments" which would have to be replaced after its exit. While she hoped the two sides would end up with "something very similar", she accepted that if the UK left without a deal, this would be "very difficult to do short term".
"We will have to replace some of the things we currently use in terms of access to databases, the way in which we can quickly arrest and extradite people, these kinds of things, we'll have to replace as effectively as we can. "That will be more costly, undoubtedly, slower, undoubtedly and, potentially, yes, put the public at risk."

To me that is not project fear scaremongering, it is just a quite dry explanation of what they will differences there will be with no deal in place. If people want to see it as project fear and not to be read then OK, it's a free world. Me, I just see it as a sensible explanation of what may happen if there is not deal when it comes to policing. She's not said there will be hoards of Romanian criminals raging through the cities of the UK unable to be arrested. I mean what do people want her to say when asked the question as I'm sure she, along with just about every other person in the UK, would be expecting a bit of clarity on what will happen by now.

I didn't quote Cressida Dick's piece, nor the senior politicians who, on Dec 10th, said there could be riots. Although I did quote George Osbourne on what he said. I could have added Mark Carney who himself has since said some of his predictions in the run up to the vote were widely inaccurate.

 

[harpo_72]

The electorate is being softened up for a second vote, and it will be a large majority for Remain. Propaganda wins!

Is this why a second vote is not wanted? Perish the thought that a majority come back with a different result. It cannot just be forced through because a bunch of of people .. who have not got a plan or agree with what their definition of brexit is should force the rest of the country into something..seriously if they had a clue or a plan the country might have got behind it. It isn’t scaremongering, it’s just someone highlighting what could happen and a plan being required to deal with it.

 

[MegaSteve]

As a London taxpayer I'd rather Ms Dick focus on the what nows rather than the what ifs....

 

[Hobbit]

Is this why a second vote is not wanted? Perish the thought that a majority come back with a different result. It cannot just be forced through because a bunch of of people .. who have not got a plan or agree with what their definition of brexit is should force the rest of the country into something..seriously if they had a clue or a plan the country might have got behind it. It isn’t scaremongering, it’s just someone highlighting what could happen and a plan being required to deal with it.

I think some politicians and business people have spoken responsibly and I think others haven't. Do you think that the politicians who, earlier this month, spoke of riots was acting responsibly? Didn't you say London would be hit with lawlessness and a crimewave in an earlier post? Project Fear from you! Crimewave

But on the subject of democracy. Its a simple process. Raise a proposition, vote on the proposition, enact the result of the vote. Not enacting the result of the vote is not democracy. I don't agree with Leaving but I don't subscribe to showing a lack of respect for the vote, unlike some.

 

[bobmac]

Just imagine if there was a second referendum and remain won but the govt. said tough, we're still leaving

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Good; the quality of posting & debate on this thread has improved greatly since you stopped -stirring on it rather than posting anything of value. If you could stay out this time I'm sure many would be grateful.

My position on Brexit is quite clear and it is quite simple.

Of course I recognise the past concerns in respect of the EU and the issues and concerns of all who voted to leave the EU; and that whatever happens in respect of a deal - post 29th March 2019 the UK will find a new economic level - and in respect of that I am hopeful and praying that economically that will be a good place, a level at least as good as where it is now. However I fear it can only be less than would otherwise have been had we remained in the EU.

My concern is that in finding that new level the short term readjustment could have a significant and very painful impact on the poorer and most vulnerable of society - both through the short term impact on businesses and on the impact on the economy - the impact on the former costing jobs and on the latter forcing cutbacks in public spending. For many suffering job loss or impacted by spending cutbacks that short term pain might well be worth it were the expectations of the benefits afforded from leaving be tangible, real - making a significant difference to their lives.

But I fear that that will not be the case.

There is I fear great risk that the expectations raised by the promises by leading Leave campaigners in the context of decades of demonising of the EU - or indeed false expectations that many leave voters were not disabused of by these leading campaigners - that these expectations just cannot be met by leaving the EU; that the difficult issues many come across in their day-to-day lives will still be there tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow - when the expectation was that leaving the EU would in the near future deliver answers to these issues.

And then where will we be? We we be out of the EU and we will have 'regained control'. But to what end. The lives of many will quite probably be just as difficult if not more so - and there will still seem to be pretty much the same number of Eastern European voices in the local school or doctor surgery - and there will almost certainly be more faces from sub-continent.

And who will there be to blame?

I worry not particularly for the UK economy in the long term - the UK will recover to a level consistent with what may well be a reduced standing and influence in the world - and that will hopefully be OK. More though, I worry for the future social cohesion and stability of the country, when life is harder for the poorer and most vulnerable - and the elite of the time will be telling them that it is a cost worth paying as the UK has 'regained control'.

 

[ColchesterFC]

All the lady from the met said was '

The UK's policing co-operation with the EU was based on a framework of "legal instruments" which would have to be replaced after its exit. While she hoped the two sides would end up with "something very similar", she accepted that if the UK left without a deal, this would be "very difficult to do short term".
"We will have to replace some of the things we currently use in terms of access to databases, the way in which we can quickly arrest and extradite people, these kinds of things, we'll have to replace as effectively as we can. "That will be more costly, undoubtedly, slower, undoubtedly and, potentially, yes, put the public at risk."

I can see why the bit in bold could be construed as scaremongering by some people. How can she possibly say that it will undoubtedly be more costly and slower until she knows what new systems will be put in place? It's possible that it will be more costly and slower but equally it's possible that we'll put in place systems that will cost exactly the same and be equally as quick as what we have now. It's the "undoubtedly" part of her quote that could be considered as scaremongering as at this point she can't possibly know that.

 

[Dando]

My position on Brexit is quite clear and it is quite simple.

Of course I recognise the past concerns in respect of the EU and the issues and concerns of all who voted to leave the EU; and that whatever happens in respect of a deal - post 29th March 2019 the UK will find a new economic level - and in respect of that I am hopeful and praying that economically that will be a good place, a level at least as good as where it is now. However I fear it can only be less than would otherwise have been had we remained in the EU.

My concern is that in finding that new level the short term readjustment could have a significant and very painful impact on the poorer and most vulnerable of society - both through the short term impact on businesses and on the impact on the economy - the impact on the former costing jobs and on the latter forcing cutbacks in public spending. For many suffering job loss or impacted by spending cutbacks that short term pain might well be worth it were the expectations of the benefits afforded from leaving be tangible, real - making a significant difference to their lives.

But I fear that that will not be the case.

There is I fear great risk that the expectations raised by the promises by leading Leave campaigners in the context of decades of demonising of the EU - or indeed false expectations that many leave voters were not disabused of by these leading campaigners - that these expectations just cannot be met by leaving the EU; that the difficult issues many come across in their day-to-day lives will still be there tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow - when the expectation was that leaving the EU would in the near future deliver answers to these issues.

And then where will we be? We we be out of the EU and we will have 'regained control'. But to what end. The lives of many will quite probably be just as difficult if not more so - and there will still seem to be pretty much the same number of Eastern European voices in the local school or doctor surgery - and there will almost certainly be more faces from sub-continent.

And who will there be to blame?

I worry not particularly for the UK economy in the long term - the UK will recover to a level consistent with what may well be a reduced standing and influence in the world - and that will hopefully be OK. More though, I worry for the future social cohesion and stability of the country, when life is harder for the poorer and most vulnerable - and the elite of the time will be telling them that it is a cost worth paying as the UK has 'regained control'.

Well that didn’t last long did it!

 

[Hacker Khan]

I can see why the bit in bold could be construed as scaremongering by some people. How can she possibly say that it will undoubtedly be more costly and slower until she knows what new systems will be put in place? It's possible that it will be more costly and slower but equally it's possible that we'll put in place systems that will cost exactly the same and be equally as quick as what we have now. It's the "undoubtedly" part of her quote that could be considered as scaremongering as at this point she can't possibly know that.

I think that if you have some type of system that works and involves many countries and many users of the system in said countries are used to, and that system is taken away, and you have what, 90 odd days and counting down to go till you need a brand new system in place to replace the existing one that has grown up over decades, with still on clue over if you will actually need this new system or not or how much time you will have to instigate a new system, then it is a fair assumption that, should you need a new system, initially it will cost a bit and there will be teething issues to say the least. Any other assumptions are frankly a bit silly, based on the historical evidence of our ability of us to put new systems in place. Which is what I think she was trying to say.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Well that didn’t last long did it!

At least it wasn’t the usual insulting diatribe about the single figure IQs or racist politics of Leavers; is it an early April Fool’s stunt or has someone hijacked his account?

 

[harpo_72]

I think some politicians and business people have spoken responsibly and I think others haven't. Do you think that the politicians who, earlier this month, spoke of riots was acting responsibly? Didn't you say London would be hit with lawlessness and a crimewave in an earlier post? Project Fear from you! Crimewave

But on the subject of democracy. Its a simple process. Raise a proposition, vote on the proposition, enact the result of the vote. Not enacting the result of the vote is not democracy. I don't agree with Leaving but I don't subscribe to showing a lack of respect for the vote, unlike some.

I did not take sides regards the behaviour... pretty sure the leavers won’t be too pleased if they don’t get their way.. after all, every comment is met with scaremongering it’s never met with a consistent plan or an understanding of trade or WTO trade policy .. got a massive carpet to sweep it under.

Regards democracy ... wtf are you harping on about ?? 🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

[Mudball]

I think that if you have some type of system that works and involves many countries and many users of the system in said countries are used to, and that system is taken away, and you have what, 90 odd days and counting down to go till you need a brand new system in place to replace the existing one that has grown up over decades, with still on clue over if you will actually need this new system or not or how much time you will have to instigate a new system, then it is a fair assumption that, should you need a new system, initially it will cost a bit and there will be teething issues to say the least. Any other assumptions are frankly a bit silly, based on the historical evidence of our ability of us to put new systems in place. Which is what I think she was trying to say.

Agree 100%.. I would give the Met commissioner more credit in this area than a bunch of folks on a golf forum (or politicians who think ‘we have too many experts’)

 

[Hobbit]

Barclays Bank. "We are fully prepared to be 100% operational in case of hard Brexit."

JCB, "trading on WTO terms is a matter of routine."

Aviva, "we have a presence in several global markets and so believe Brexit will not impact us at all."

GlaxoSmithKline, "Over the longer term, we believe Brexit will not have a material impact on our business."

The Chief Economist for Deutsche Bank, "I am not at all worried about the UK whatever the arrangement, they are the most flexible country in he world."

 

[Hobbit]

My position on Brexit is quite clear and it is quite simple.

Blah blah blah blah blah blah............ long on wind and bugger all in the way of facts as usual.

"Social cohesion" blah blah blah blah blah blah...... I suggest you visit some of the roughest areas of the UK. Go into one of the pubs there and start a conversation. Social cohesion hasn't existed for a long, long time. Talk to them about factory closures, industries that have since moved to the Czech Republic, or The Netherlands, or Poland or or or. Ask them what the EU has done for them.

 

[Imurg]

Blah blah blah blah blah blah............ long on wind and bugger all in the way of facts as usual.

"Social cohesion" blah blah blah blah blah blah...... I suggest you visit some of the roughest areas of the UK. Go into one of the pubs there and start a conversation. Social cohesion hasn't existed for a long, long time. Talk to them about factory closures, industries that have since moved to the Czech Republic, or The Netherlands, or Poland or or or. Ask them what the EU has done for them.

Apart from roads, aqueducts, sanitation, wine.........

 

[Hobbit]

Apart from roads, aqueducts, sanitation, wine.........

"Blessed are the cheesemakers."

 

[bobmac]

Blah blah blah blah blah blah............ long on wind and bugger all in the way of facts as usual.

"Social cohesion" blah blah blah blah blah blah...... I suggest you visit some of the roughest areas of the UK. Go into one of the pubs there and start a conversation. Social cohesion hasn't existed for a long, long time. Talk to them about factory closures, industries that have since moved to the Czech Republic, or The Netherlands, or Poland or or or. Ask them what the EU has done for them.

 

[Tashyboy]

So in essence, when we Brexit. The EU and the European countries will not want to trade with us. Hmmmmmm. Would that be why the French have just bought a controlling stake in Gatwick now. The country's second busiest airport. Just why would they still want to do trade in this country. Now am not a business man. But I am sure they have not bought it to sell it when we leave in March. Of course when we want to enter the EU in the not to distant future we will have to pay for that pleasure. No doubt with some people flying to the EU from Gatwick. Money which will go straight into French coffers.
Wouldn't suprise me if it was not the French flying that drone to try and get the price to drop.

 

[Old Skier]

All the lady from the met said was '

The UK's policing co-operation with the EU was based on a framework of "legal instruments" which would have to be replaced after its exit. While she hoped the two sides would end up with "something very similar", she accepted that if the UK left without a deal, this would be "very difficult to do short term".
"We will have to replace some of the things we currently use in terms of access to databases, the way in which we can quickly arrest and extradite people, these kinds of things, we'll have to replace as effectively as we can. "That will be more costly, undoubtedly, slower, undoubtedly and, potentially, yes, put the public at risk.".

Funny how the lady forgot to mention, although later reported at the end of the piece on the BBC news, that the majority of the intelligence that is used by the EU police comes from -------- you've guessed it, the U.K. So if we're at risk it comes to pass if there is no cooperation, the rest of the EU public is at a bigger risk.

There are those that believe the world is flat.

 

[robinthehood]

Billions already transferred out of the UK economy in to the EU. Frankfurt lapping up city businesses. Remind me what we stand to gain from this.