Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

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Hobbit said:
Sort of, yes there are countries an EU country can't trade with. You may well be able to buy xx products at favourable rates UNTIL you've imported your quota from that country. And a number of countries also 'suffer' high tariff rates. The EU, especially Germany, has also fallen foul of WTO rules on a number of occasions for unfair trading.
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Thank you. Genuinely it is nice to see a factual answer to a question posed that adds to the debate.
 
Its lucky that the opinion of no one really counts for diddly squat on here otherwise certain posters would really aggravate me!
 
Doon frae Troon said:
Errr emm….. perhaps by folk realising that by voting leave they have made a serious error of judgement influenced by the lies spread by the MSM and right wing politicians and that if we press the reset button things would be massively better.;)
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I don’t read papers or watch the news. That stuff is poison for everyone. Biased what ever way you swing. I made the decision on my own based on that i don’t believe we need two parliaments governing decoding or making laws for my small country of England.
 
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Doon frae Troon said:
Errr emm….. perhaps by folk realising that by voting leave they have made a serious error of judgement influenced by the lies spread by the MSM and right wing politicians and that if we press the reset button things would be massively better.;)
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And how is making cheap, snide digs designed to provoke a reaction going to help? Do you really think leavers are going to think “oh, Doon is taliking poo again. Yet another pointless dig that’s offers nothing to the debate. That means I must have voted wrongly. I will turn over a new leaf and become a remainer.”?
 
Hacker Khan said:
Well yes because the question was if there are any countries that we can not trade with because we are in the EU. Where you adhere to EU rules. Which may or may not prevent us from trading with other countries. Hence the question. As it does not make sense saying you want to leave the EU so you can open up the rest of the world to trade with if the EU does not stop you doing that in the first place.
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The problem is “EU rules”. As has already been said, EU rules complicate matters considerably. All sorts of stuff applies mainly because the EU feels it has to protect its own industries and services. Importantly though we could negotiate better deals ourselves, particularly on free trade arrangements, especially with Commonwealth countries who we pretty much ditched to join the EEC just as many were becoming “Tiger” economies.
There are two big issues here. Goods and people. If we could move goods freely without FOM for people that would be great. But the EU won’t let us. They won’t allow us into the customs union and do trade deals with other countries probably because we could buy stuff cheaper from outside the EU than other EU countries and sell them into the EU and therefore mess up their protectionist principle.
They won’t allow us to trade freely if we are not in the EU. Fair enough. We can’t have our cake and eat it.
BTW a lot of people supporting EU protectionism oppose Trump for doing the same thing.
All this said, if the EU was still just a trading deal, even with the barriers to other foreign trade in place, I do not believe we would have voted to leave. But, as it has evolved into something quite different with “nation status”, a flag, an anthem, a parliament or two, a commission, courts, law makers, currency, unelected and unsackable leaders, FOM and now seemingly an army, all without the consent of its citizens it’s simply a different deal. The world has shrunk. I run a small business and whilst we sell to Europe we also buy from and sell to another 26 countries around the world. Europe is a big trading partner to Britain partly because of historical ties due to locality. That locality is not so important anymore. If businesses like mine can trade with the other side of the world, anyone can. So British people are prepared to forego the trade deal for the opportunity to ditch all the other bad stuff which comes with EU membership and the chance to improve our prospects with other nations the world over.
 
Wished we had voted remain simply because with ANY economic jolts it's always the poorest/least able to cope who will bear the anguish of being unable to provide for their families. Only the spivs and wide boys (big business & conmen) get through such periods without feeling the pain.

Having said that, there's just no way I would agree to sign a document that gives someone else future authority over my actions. This is exactly what the PM's deal is, as it currently stands!
Can we renegotiate? IMHO its doubtful in the extreme we can get anything that's palatable to us, as it would be unpalatable to the EU.

In these circumstances, a hard brexit is the only way forward based on the referendum result.

Many say that based on new/more information/precise information many people would vote to stay in. IMHO, that is irrelevant and a red herring. The result of any new referendum, were it to go the other way, would be so divisive that a new vote should be avoided.
Who knows maybe there'll be a vote to rejoin the EU club, in 10/20/30 years time!
 
Sweep said:
And how is making cheap, snide digs designed to provoke a reaction going to help? Do you really think leavers are going to think “oh, Doon is taliking poo again. Yet another pointless dig that’s offers nothing to the debate. That means I must have voted wrongly. I will turn over a new leaf and become a remainer.”?
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Brutally honest this is the pot calling the kettle black ... and it seems more prevalent on the leavers side with some pretty condescending remarks, snide emojis and some pretty abrasive posts. Meaning those who voted to remain usually switch off.

Although there has been some good posts, and they have shown some common ground and 2 different approaches to a common issue.
 
I think we also should recognise that whilst free trade is preferable, it may not be all it’s cracked up to be.
I saw an interview with Peter Lilley the other day who said he was full of optimism when he signed us into the European free trade arrangement. However since then he said our WTO trading has increased 3 times more than our free trade with EU nations. America sells more to the EU on WTO rates than we do freely and imports less. Now, the US is a much bigger country than us so you may expect the figures to be bigger, but still.
 
harpo_72 said:
Brutally honest this is the pot calling the kettle black ... and it seems more prevalent on the leavers side with some pretty condescending remarks, snide emojis and some pretty abrasive posts. Meaning those who voted to remain usually switch off.

Although there has been some good posts, and they have shown some common ground and 2 different approaches to a common issue.
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Oh the irony! You consistently use insults against people with a different view, in fact you just did it again here suggesting its leavers who are condescending and snide. Never mind Pots and Kettles, how about Greenhouses and Stones.
 
Hacker Khan said:
I know. Sorry if I'm being dense here but I'm trying to say that if you are in the EU you abide by their rules. Golfers as much as anyone should realise that if you are a member of a club or play the game you abide by the rules. I think the point was being made was if those rules are causing us to not be able to trade etc. No one is disputing the fact that if you are a member of a club you abide by their rules.
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Dear Member. Please be advised that if you play golf at any other club we will expect that club to pay a 20% tariff to make our greenfees seem better value. We would also bring it to your notice that we restrict the number of times these clubs allow you to play as you may start prefering them and have the audacity to leave us and join them.
De Management.
 
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SocketRocket said:
The operative words "By EU rules"
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Indeed!

Which ones? Specific examples? It's no trick question! I'm simply trying to fully understand the actual problem that the UK is deemed to have regarding trading with the rest of the world, while also being in the EU.

I suspect the (real) answer would/will be an argument for why the EU is deemed to be 'protectionist' btw, so an opportunity for those who know the details to explain - compared to simply hearing and regurgitating emotive terms/phrases (propaganda!).
 
IanM said:
So, you are saying categorically, that the uk is free to set up trade deals with any other country in the world on whatever terms it can negotiate?

Meanwhile, military vehicles bearing the EU flag are being used against protesters in Paris.......
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Probably not, don't think anyone's arguing that they impose conditions as being part of their club. But then again are you saying that it is worth time, effort and resources needed to renegotiate numerous deals that we already have through the EU. When that time, effort and resources could be spent on addressing the pressing issues we have in this country regarding public service funding, NHS waiting times, kids on mopeds causing havoc, school funding being cut to the bone etc. Or even getting our economy and workforce into a position where it can compete in a world of increasing automation.

As to be honest I'd rather us concentrate on those issues as I can see the immediate and tangible benefits of doing that.
 
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