Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Hobbit]

I don't think he's saying that we aren't capable. Just that we aren't capable yet in enough numbers. I work with some skilled engineers. I'm currently in the process of trying to recruit another one. It's almost impossible without paying over £40k plus (in the NW).

If you're a decent Engineer at the moment then you can pick and choose your workplace. We simply haven't invested in the training because we've had cheaper options abroad. It'll be 10 years before that imbalance will be even close to being addressed.

Immigration is the answer. Every time immigration has been discussed its been about targeted immigration. A qualified engineer with Seat in Spain is on €26k-€28k. That's £23.5k. Offer them £30k = €33.5k.

 

[bluewolf]

Immigration is the answer. Every time immigration has been discussed its been about targeted immigration. A qualified engineer with Seat in Spain is on €26k-€28k. That's £23.5k. Offer them £30k = €33.5k.

But that brings other problems. The answer can't be to import skills. That's what appears to have caused a significant amount of discord over the last 20 years. The importing of Nurses/Doctors into the NHS has been routinely pilloried on this very thread.

Now we're saying that we should be taking other countries skilled engineers. It's a circular argument that doesn't appear to make a lot of sense.

 

[Blue in Munich]

Triumph Motorcycles are an excellent example of a British manufacturer combining industry leading technology with quality production.

And producing the product abroad; 2 factories in the UK, 1 in Brazil & 3 in Thailand.

 

[Hobbit]

But that brings other problems. The answer can't be to import skills. That's what appears to have caused a significant amount of discord over the last 20 years. The importing of Nurses/Doctors into the NHS has been routinely pilloried on this very thread.

Now we're saying that we should be taking other countries skilled engineers. It's a circular argument that doesn't appear to make a lot of sense.

I don't disagree with you, and ultimately its about training 'our' next generation. But we're not taking them, they are choosing come for a better life. We don't turn up off the coast of Barcelona like vikings.

 

[bluewolf]

I don't disagree with you, and ultimately its about training 'our' next generation. But we're not taking them, they are choosing come for a better life. We don't turn up off the coast of Barcelona like vikings.

Could we do that? 😂

If we really want to train our next generation then we really need to look at how we fund our Universities. There aren't enough Engineering places to fill the gaps.

 

[Hobbit]

Could we do that? 😂

If we really want to train our next generation then we really need to look at how we fund our Universities. There aren't enough Engineering places to fill the gaps.

Totally off topic but we've had two large inflatables land here in the early hours in Mojacar in the last week - there's 40 potential engineers from Africa

 

[Deleted member 18588]

And producing the product abroad; 2 factories in the UK, 1 in Brazil & 3 in Thailand.

That is true of just about every volume mfrs in cars or bikes.

In how many countries do VW, for example, produce?

 

[Old Skier]

Could we do that? 😂

If we really want to train our next generation then we really need to look at how we fund our Universities. There aren't enough Engineering places to fill the gaps.

Why do you expect funding for this, when this country had a skilled workforce it was when the company's had proper apprenticeship and didn't really on colleges and universities to do all the heavy lifting.

It looks like firms want a ready made workforce and aren't willing to pay for good training.

 

[SocketRocket]

I mean professional Engineers. And they are worth whatever the going rate is, which in these parts is £35k upwards.

And with regards to training, yes, those companies do. However, most don't.

Professional Engineers always have been expensive but they are in most cases graduates with science degrees. In production engineering they tend to be involved in design, quality and production process. The automation and robotics in the manufacturing process has deskilled the shop floor operatives more to the level of machine setters and operators. There are still many highly skilled machinists but they tend to be in the smaller jobbing shops and toolmaking industry.

 

[bluewolf]

Why do you expect funding for this, when this country had a skilled workforce it was when the company's had proper apprenticeship and didn't really on colleges and universities to do all the heavy lifting.

It looks like firms want a ready made workforce and aren't willing to pay for good training.

Well then let's change the system. Companies should hire 18yr olds and pay for them to attend University. Or ensure proper apprenticeships are available. We haven't done this for many years because we've concentrated on short term gain. It's why our economy is fragile. There are not enough skills underpinning it. We've become the masters of enriching the shareholders at the expense of the Workers.

 

[bluewolf]

Professional Engineers always have been expensive but they are in most cases graduates with science degrees. In production engineering they tend to be involved in design, quality and production process. The automation and robotics in the manufacturing process has deskilled the shop floor operatives more to the level of machine setters and operators. There are still many highly skilled machinists but they tend to be in the smaller jobbing shops and toolmaking industry.

And how long do you think it will take to redress that balance? Can we do it quickly enough to ensure that we don't lose our competitive edge?

 

[Old Skier]

Well then let's change the system. Companies should hire 18yr olds and pay for them to attend University. Or ensure proper apprenticeships are available. We haven't done this for many years because we've concentrated on short term gain. It's why our economy is fragile. There are not enough skills underpinning it. We've become the masters of enriching the shareholders at the expense of the Workers.

I would prefer to see high grade apprenticeships like RR do, gives an apprentice a proper goal with the opportunity of a good well paid job.

 

[SocketRocket]

And how long do you think it will take to redress that balance? Can we do it quickly enough to ensure that we don't lose our competitive edge?

We need to sell Engineering as a top profession, many see it as a mucky oily rad job. In Germany an Engineer is held in the same esteem as a doctor or solicitor. We need to attract investment in the tools and plant that can compete in manufacturing, thats why I want us to be an independant state who can decide how we invest public money to create jobs that give people a worthwhile career rather than purchasing from abroad an encouraging our young to fester on benefits.

 

[Taz]

https://m.facebook.com/stanw2?ref=o...&ref=opera_for_android_speed_dial&__tn__=*s-R

 

[SocketRocket]

https://m.facebook.com/stanw2?ref=opera_for_android_speed_dial#!/story.php?story_fbid=528615510938332&id=406437063156178&refid=17&ref=opera_for_android_speed_dial&__tn__=*s-R

🤔

 

[bluewolf]

We need to sell Engineering as a top profession, many see it as a mucky oily rad job. In Germany an Engineer is held in the same esteem as a doctor or solicitor. We need to attract investment in the tools and plant that can compete in manufacturing, thats why I want us to be an independant state who can decide how we invest public money to create jobs that give people a worthwhile career rather than purchasing from abroad an encouraging our young to fester on benefits.

I'm really not sure how being in the EU stops us doing that? If we just start expecting more manufacturing in this Country then the costs of buying those goods are going to sky rocket. We can't compete unless there's downward pressure on wages. I'm not sure that's what people signed up to.

 

[SocketRocket]

I'm really not sure how being in the EU stops us doing that? If we just start expecting more manufacturing in this Country then the costs of buying those goods are going to sky rocket. We can't compete unless there's downward pressure on wages. I'm not sure that's what people signed up to.

Is it cheaper to purchase a widget from abroad and keep a uk person on benefits. Im not really levelling this with the EU but the way we have slashed investment in manufacturing and dumped so many meaningful jobs while creating zero hours, minimum wage jobs for our young people. I dont think you could sell your theory to Germany.

 

[bluewolf]

Is it cheaper to purchase a widget from abroad and keep a uk person on benefits. Im not really levelling this with the EU but the way we have slashed investment in manufacturing and dumped so many meaningful jobs while creating zero hours, minimum wage jobs for our young people. I dont think you could sell your theory to Germany.

😂 Being half German, I have some idea of how they think.

They prioritise Company based learning in a way that we do not. They value skills in a way that we do not. They embrace a culture of robust manufacturing, not throwaway tat.

We are a long long way from being like the Germans. We have a system where the gap between the richest and the poorest is larger than almost anywhere else in the West. We currently follow an economic model that doesn't work.

We can rebuild and become a strong manufacturing country, but not without some significant change.

 

[Hobbit]

😂 Being half German, I have some idea of how they think.

They prioritise Company based learning in a way that we do not. They value skills in a way that we do not. They embrace a culture of robust manufacturing, not throwaway tat.

We are a long long way from being like the Germans. We have a system where the gap between the richest and the poorest is larger than almost anywhere else in the West. We currently follow an economic model that doesn't work.

We can rebuild and become a strong manufacturing country, but not without some significant change.

Can't disagree with any of that. But I would add, having worked for a German company for the last 20 years, they're not always as efficient as people think. They also struggle when something falls outside of process. Lastly, they pay pretty much the same as we do in the UK.

As to wages being so disparate. State pension in the UK, for such a high performing economy, are exceptionally poor.

 

[bluewolf]

Can't disagree with any of that. But I would add, having worked for a German company for the last 20 years, they're not always as efficient as people think. They also struggle when something falls outside of process. Lastly, they pay pretty much the same as we do in the UK.

As to wages being so disparate. State pension in the UK, for such a high performing economy, are exceptionally poor.

I did some work with Koenig and Bower, installing a new press line. You are exactly right about how they react when something falls outside an existing process. They appear to have the problem solving thought processes trained out of them. They can be a bit one dimensional at times. It's why I liked working with them. You could really freak them out just by performing a task in a different way.