Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[SocketRocket]

I

I cannot accurately comment on the aero industry and would be speculating, if it vaguely followed the UK industry it would be the Aston Martin/ Rolls Royce model not the mass production model. So volume and demand are less and the supply chain is slack.

I used RR as an example of skilled people in this country, we still have a good stock in manufacturing and they're not all imported. Another low volume ,highly skilled workforce is just down the road from me at Morgan Cars, they have a very highly skilled workforce and still have the people that can turn out these cars where much is made by hand. Again their skilled workforce is mainly made up from local people who have been train as apprentices in the factory. I have worked with very expert tool making companies all over the UK that turn out tooling for a wide range of technologies from Plastic/aluminium extrusion dies to press tools for high production runs. I could go on with others like Renishaw who manufacture high numbers of specialised probing and metrology systems that make high production manufacturing possible. Please dont write off the UK as a capable manufacturer.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I see it now looks like May is dishing out knighthoods to Eurosceptic Tory MP's as well as buying support from the DUP.
Absolutely stinking rotten Westminster system.

Clair Fields is online today and hardly a mention in the UK press/Media.

 

[harpo_72]

I used RR as an example of skilled people in this country, we still have a good stock in manufacturing and they're not all imported. Another low volume ,highly skilled workforce is just down the road from me at Morgan Cars, they have a very highly skilled workforce and still have the people that can turn out these cars where much is made by hand. Again their skilled workforce is mainly made up from local people who have been train as apprentices in the factory. I have worked with very expert tool making companies all over the UK that turn out tooling for a wide range of technologies from Plastic/aluminium extrusion dies to press tools for high production runs. I could go on with others like Renishaw who manufacture high numbers of specialised probing and metrology systems that make high production manufacturing possible. Please dont write off the UK as a capable manufacturer.

I am sure you can ... but can they deliver 20k components a week baring in mind they will have ones out of tolerance so the builds will be bigger?

 

[Old Skier]

I hope you cut and pasted that because it really wasn’t worth the effort of typing it. 😴😴😴

It's been doing the rounds for months, no even original

 

[bluewolf]

It's been doing the rounds for months, no even original

There's very very little on this entire thread that's original mate. You could whittle it down to about 5 posts and no one would notice.

 

[Fade and Die]

There's very very little on this entire thread that's original mate. You could whittle it down to about 5 posts and no one would notice.

Yep, if I hear the Golf club analogy one more time I think I’m gonna kill everyone in this store and put a bullet in my brain ( 40 year old virgin...pan thread reply!😁)

 

[jp5]

May appearing to buy off Eurosceptics with knighthoods to vote for her deal is... not a good look. Is this what it's come to?

 

[Foxholer]

I used RR as an example of skilled people in this country, we still have a good stock in manufacturing and they're not all imported. Another low volume ,highly skilled workforce is just down the road from me at Morgan Cars, they have a very highly skilled workforce and still have the people that can turn out these cars where much is made by hand. Again their skilled workforce is mainly made up from local people who have been train as apprentices in the factory. I have worked with very expert tool making companies all over the UK that turn out tooling for a wide range of technologies from Plastic/aluminium extrusion dies to press tools for high production runs. I could go on with others like Renishaw who manufacture high numbers of specialised probing and metrology systems that make high production manufacturing possible. Please dont write off the UK as a capable manufacturer.

Rolls Royce isn't the ideal example, being German (BMW) owned and subject to the whims of that company! Aston Martin, as suggested by Harpo is not really a good example either - only becoming really profitable (and reliable!) when using Mercedes engines! For some time before that, manufacturing was outsourced to an Austrian company! But at least it's now a UK PLC!
Morgan employees may be 'hghly skilled' but they (quite deliberately) only produce about 3-4 cars per day and, again, do not build their engines! Many of the skills Morgan employees possess have have been replaced, in high volume assembly plants, by robots!

A better 'example' (of vehicle, though not car manufacturing) would likely be JCB, whose owner is a distinct advocate of leaving the EU. A hefty fine for breaking EU trade laws might have something to do with that approach! Another strong manufacturing advocate in favour of leaving is James Dyson, though whether that approach is altruistic or selfish is perhaps debatable - he's certainly happy to 'go offshore' whenever it suits!

There are certainly niche areas where UK is a world leader. But my impression continues to be that that trail-blazing is not harnessed as well as it could/should be - except in the Financial Services area.

 

[Hobbit]

May appearing to buy off Eurosceptics with knighthoods to vote for her deal is... not a good look. Is this what it's come to?

At present only one Eurosceptic MP has been honoured. I can't find anymore. I don't think one MP is going to make any difference to the result of the vote. As it currently stands, I see this as just spin.

As to the honours system; I think its long since passed the day of being honourable the way each party looks to load the Lords. If they're handing out honours for people doing their job there's plenty of people who've done a full day down the pit, or on the docks, or in the steel works just as deserving.

 

[SocketRocket]

I am sure you can ... but can they deliver 20k components a week baring in mind they will have ones out of tolerance so the builds will be bigger?

I just don't follow your thinking here. Why do you think UK engineering are not capable of producing components just like countries in the Eu and why should the Defect rate be any different, they would be manufactured on the same CNC machine tools where the failure rate is insignificant.
I fail to comprehend people set on rubbishing UK ability as if we are a nation of idiots.

 

[harpo_72]

I just don't follow your thinking here. Why do you think UK engineering are not capable of producing components just like countries in the Eu and why should the Defect rate be any different, they would be manufactured on the same CNC machine tools where the failure rate is insignificant.
I fail to comprehend people set on rubbishing UK ability as if we are a nation of idiots.

Because it takes skill to get to low defect rates and hit high capacities ... something your over looking.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Rolls Royce isn't the ideal example, being German (BMW) owned and subject to the whims of that company! Aston Martin, as suggested by Harpo is not really a good example either - only becoming really profitable (and reliable!) when using Mercedes engines! For some time before that, manufacturing was outsourced to an Austrian company! But at least it's now a UK PLC!
Morgan employees may be 'hghly skilled' but they (quite deliberately) only produce about 3-4 cars per day and, again, do not build their engines! Many of the skills Morgan employees possess have have been replaced, in high volume assembly plants, by robots!

A better 'example' (of vehicle, though not car manufacturing) would likely be JCB, whose owner is a distinct advocate of leaving the EU. A hefty fine for breaking EU trade laws might have something to do with that approach! Another strong manufacturing advocate in favour of leaving is James Dyson, though whether that approach is altruistic or selfish is perhaps debatable - he's certainly happy to 'go offshore' whenever it suits!

There are certainly niche areas where UK is a world leader. But my impression continues to be that that trail-blazing is not harnessed as well as it could/should be - except in the Financial Services area.

Triumph Motorcycles are an excellent example of a British manufacturer combining industry leading technology with quality production.

 

[Hobbit]

Because it takes skill to get to low defect rates and hit high capacities ... something your over looking.

No one would ever start up a business with that attitude. Every new manufacturer has had to start from a zero position. Mini wouldn't be starting from a zero position. As much as there's a lot of truth earlier in your argument I disagree with your premise that it can't be done. Of course it can be done. There's been countless start ups that have succeeded. To be honest, it sounds like you're doing a Hogan. Blindly arguing a premise that just isn't true.

 

[Foxholer]

Triumph Motorcycles are an excellent example of a British manufacturer combining industry leading technology with quality production.

Indeed!

A British bike that doesn't leak oil! Must be the Japanese approach to Quality/Participation!

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Indeed!

A British bike that doesn't leak oil! Must be the Japanese approach to Quality/Participation!

No. Merely the benefit of investing in the right machine tools, production methods and materials

Couple those to a well trained, skilled and motivated workforce and the right product is easily attainable.

Trouble is that back I the so called glory days of the British motorcycle industry there was insufficient investment.

 

[bluewolf]

No one would ever start up a business with that attitude. Every new manufacturer has had to start from a zero position. Mini wouldn't be starting from a zero position. As much as there's a lot of truth earlier in your argument I disagree with your premise that it can't be done. Of course it can be done. There's been countless start ups that have succeeded. To be honest, it sounds like you're doing a Hogan. Blindly arguing a premise that just isn't true.

I don't think he's saying that we aren't capable. Just that we aren't capable yet in enough numbers. I work with some skilled engineers. I'm currently in the process of trying to recruit another one. It's almost impossible without paying over £40k plus (in the NW).

If you're a decent Engineer at the moment then you can pick and choose your workplace. We simply haven't invested in the training because we've had cheaper options abroad. It'll be 10 years before that imbalance will be even close to being addressed.

 

[SocketRocket]

Because it takes skill to get to low defect rates and hit high capacities ... something your over looking.

Again I fail to see what point you are making. Is it that people in the UK are not able to achieve these skills because if it is you are deluded and I just fail to see how you can come to such a conclusion. High batch component machining is very much an automated process these days. FMS use automated work handling, CNC machine tool turn out components to exactly the same form and fit every time unless there is a tool failure of mechanical breakdown which is very rare, tool monitoring systems constantly check wear on tooling and carry out tool changes before the tool fails, probing devices check the part in process and adjust tool offsets automatically.

What exactly are these skills you suggest are necessary to hit low defect rates. Maybe you can elaborate as I fail to understand your line of thinking.

 

[Foxholer]

No. Merely the benefit of investing in the right machine tools, production methods and materials

Couple those to a well trained, skilled and motivated workforce and the right product is easily attainable.

Trouble is that back I the so called glory days of the British motorcycle industry there was insufficient investment.

I'm pretty sure that Triumph apply much of the Japanese approach to 'continual improvement' - like I saw/participated in at Honda Swindon many moons ago. Not particularly 'natural', at least initially, for Brits/Anglo-Saxon types, but did work.

Getting the right 'culture' is extremely important! Communication is an essential part of that!

 

[SocketRocket]

I don't think he's saying that we aren't capable. Just that we aren't capable yet in enough numbers. I work with some skilled engineers. I'm currently in the process of trying to recruit another one. It's almost impossible without paying over £40k plus (in the NW).

If you're a decent Engineer at the moment then you can pick and choose your workplace. We simply haven't invested in the training because we've had cheaper options abroad. It'll be 10 years before that imbalance will be even close to being addressed.

When you say "Engineer" what type of engineer are you referring to? Do you mean professional engineers or tradesmen. Consider companies like Triumph Motorcycles , Honda UK, Nissan, JLR etc, these companies dont have problems with skilled labour, they train staff just like companies do in the EU. Would you consider an engineer to be worth less than £40k

 

[bluewolf]

When you say "Engineer" what type of engineer are you referring to? Do you mean professional engineers or tradesmen. Consider companies like Triumph Motorcycles , Honda UK, Nissan, JLR etc, these companies dont have problems with skilled labour, they train staff just like companies do in the EU. Would you consider an engineer to be worth less than £40k

I mean professional Engineers. And they are worth whatever the going rate is, which in these parts is £35k upwards.

And with regards to training, yes, those companies do. However, most don't.