Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Tashyboy]

So, Italy has had it's budget rejected.... having waived the right to run their own country and lost their own currency, I guess they made that choice. Greece is in a worse mess, so watch this space.

Of course, neither met the crtieria to join the single currency but were allowed in knowing what would happen... fancy trying to run those countires on German exhange and interest rates.

Anyone spot any "loss of control?"

Ironically in Feb this year, the Independant reported that the biggest breaker of EU rules was Germany. 😳 That staunch supporter of the EU. Guess what, France wasn't far behind them either. With good old UK in 14th place behaving impeccably.

 

[Hobbit]

Ironically in Feb this year, the Independant reported that the biggest breaker of EU rules was Germany. 😳 That staunch supporter of the EU. Guess what, France wasn't far behind them either. With good old UK in 14th place behaving impeccably.

And the biggest breaker of EU budgetary rules? France. Also, its worth looking at how many times France has broken the CAP rules, or that they are now proposing an even bigger break of those rules.

 

[IanM]

Italy can set their own budget, it just has to be fiscally responsible and not destabilise the eurozone.

The Tories can set any rules they like, so can any UK Government as Parliament is sovereign but we choose to write in EU law and when we choose not to, we can take it to court.

They set minimums on taxation, (so they EU is setting taxation!) each country chooses their own, which is why the UK and Eire have different VAT rates as an example.

Tell me more about the IMO if it doesn't relate to fisheries policy.

Wrong. Italy has just had it's buget rejected by the EU. So it clearly cant set it's own. (great article about it in the times this week)
Wrong. VAT cannot be set lower than the EU level.... so we are not free to chose. (careful, the launguage on the BBC site on this is deliberately oblique on this point)
International Maritime Organisation..... what is you preoccupation with fisheries when it covers much much more than that? Keep Googling though!

(Edit: apoligies if this sounded blunt...no offense intended... you correctly argue that certain things are part of being part of a collective, but the point was "loss of control that you normally associate with Statehood.)

 

[woody69]

Wrong. Italy has just had it's buget rejected by the EU. So it clearly cant set it's own. (great article about it in the times this week)
Wrong. VAT cannot be set lower than the EU level.... so we are not free to chose. (careful, the launguage on the BBC site on this is deliberately oblique on this point)
International Maritime Organisation..... what is you preoccupation with fisheries when it covers much much more than that? Keep Googling though!

(Edit: apoligies if this sounded blunt...no offense intended... you correctly argue that certain things are part of being part of a collective, but the point was "loss of control that you normally associate with Statehood.)

I feel like we are going around in circles a little. Italy can set its own budget AS LONG AS it doesn't destabilise the Eurozone and is fiscally responsible. That's the rules of the club they are in when they signed up to the Euro. If your issue is a loss of member states sovereignty because they can't simply do what they like without repercussions across the rest of the EU, then yes, I agree with you, but that's a good thing. Italy retain the sovereignty to leave the Euro and scrap EU rules whenever they like. But if they want to stay in the club, then they have to abide by club rules. Some were voted in to leave the Eurozone and as soon as they had access to power that talk quietened down because the reality is the Eurozone membership is a net benefit to the country.

I never said VAT can be set lower than the EU Level, but as a member of the club, they have set the minimum and we abide by it. I guess the difference between your thoughts and mine is you want the flexibility for the UK to do what its wants (we got our sovereignty back!), where as I am happy to play by the rules of the club (due to the many other benefits it brings) and if a rule is introduced I don't agree with, be in the club to help get it amended. Loss of sovereignty was never a real concern of mine when I was deciding whether to vote remain or leave.

You asked me what I know about the IMO. I said, not a lot other than a few bits around the fisheries policy. I was wistfully hoping you would perhaps expand upon your point and why you asked me about it.

 

[Deleted member 18121]

I feel like we are going around in circles a little.

Summed up the brexit threads in 11 words.

I cant wait for it to all be over so we can stop hearing about it.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Summed up the brexit threads in 11 words.

I cant wait for it to all be over so we can stop hearing about it.

Me too - would love Brexit just to finish right now - by finish of course I mean cancelled

For me it is just too important to be ignored and I believe that we should all be trying to understand as best we can what the risks and issues will be - as well as the benefits. All very well sticking our heads in the sand wishing it would be over but that way risks us walking blindfolded to we do not know what - and that surely is never sensible.

No matter what deal we get with the EU it will be worse than we have at the moment and a No Deal will be very bad - almost nobody serious is saying these days that No Deal will be great or even as good as things are at the moment (see Rees-Mogg and 50yrs before benefits come through).

That said, and no matter what the outcome - no matter how bad - I am in the fortunate position that I won't be significantly affected - and neither (financially) will be our children - though I believe that their quality of life and life opportunities may well be poorer than ours. But the same cannot be said of the poorer and most vulnerable of society. Wish Brexit away if you will but by ignoring what might be the outcome I feel we ignore our wider social responsibility to each other.

I could just not bother pushing against this (for me) insane and utterly reckless decision. But I won't. And that's just how I feel.

 

[Tashyboy]

Me too - would love Brexit just to finish right now - by finish of course I mean cancelled

For me it is just too important to be ignored and I believe that we should all be trying to understand as best we can what the risks and issues will be - as well as the benefits. All very well sticking our heads in the sand wishing it would be over but that way risks us walking blindfolded to we do not know what - and that surely is never sensible.

No matter what deal we get with the EU it will be worse than we have at the moment and a No Deal will be very bad - almost nobody serious is saying these days that No Deal will be great or even as good as things are at the moment (see Rees-Mogg and 50yrs before benefits come through).

That said, and no matter what the outcome - no matter how bad - I am in the fortunate position that I won't be significantly affected - and neither (financially) will be our children - though I believe that their quality of life and life opportunities may well be poorer than ours. But the same cannot be said of the poorer and most vulnerable of society. Wish Brexit away if you will but by ignoring what might be the outcome I feel we ignore our wider social responsibility to each other.

I could just not bother pushing against this (for me) insane and utterly reckless decision. But I won't. And that's just how I feel.

Never heard any of that a dozen times before. Cheers SILH.

 

[drdel]

In the last 8 years the ECJ has ruled against HMRC to the tune of over £50bn worth of VAT and Corporation tax the UK govt has sought to claw back from multinational companies.

The UK has lost 77% of court cases with the EU in the last 40 years. A high figure, yes but its worth looking at what makes up those numbers and, specifically the win/loss rate since 2010. 40 years ago it was a 50/50 win rate. More recently its over 80% win rate for the EU. Is the UK justice system really that "unjust" that over 80% of its rulings are wrong? Two, non-financial, overrulings are just frightening - on two separate occasions a known terrorist, banned from entry into the UK, has had that ban overturned by the EU because he has an EU passport.

There's oodles of examples out there that show how often the ECJ overrules all the member states over financial issues. For example, VAT on certain items. The UK has seen a number of items added to the VAT list because it was deemed to have an unfair advantage in the manufacturing costs of those items.

Whilst there is a fairness is saying all taxes should be aligned across the EU, if you're a member, to say that the UK is free to set all its taxation is naive. Technically it can set its own rate but practically it can't because it will end up in court. You only have to look at the number of times the Irish govt has been in court over corporation tax, and the fines that have been levied against them, to realise a country can't just set tax rates without considering where those rates fit in with the rest of the EU.

Just add...

It might be a coincidence, of course, but I think Germany has rarely been on the wrong end of an ECJ ruling, It doesn't seem to get hauled over the coals on its (protectionist) industrial policies and it has managed to build itself a surplus of over 800tn Euros - all at a time when many other members were facing whopping debts and receiving ECB loans/grants to spend mainly on German made 'industrial' products.

I think this is the level playing field the EU champions.

 

[Mudball]

.. well all the corporate tax wrangling to one side, our special Orange friend changed the US tax laws to ensure that Americans cos repatriate their overseas profit this year. So on one sweep Apple may no longer prop up Ireland.

 

[jp5]

Summed up the brexit threads in 11 words.

I cant wait for it to all be over so we can stop hearing about it.

You'll be waiting a long time then! Brexit will be the prism everything is viewed through for decades to come.

 

[bobmac]

You'll be waiting a long time then! Brexit will be the prism everything is viewed through for decades to come.

And will be blamed for everything for decades to come

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

Never heard any of that a dozen times before. Cheers SILH.

And things have only deteriorated meanwhiles - but no problems

 

[jp5]

And will be blamed for everything for decades to come

Some things will be attributable to Brexit, of course. Good or bad.

 

[Deleted member 18121]

You'll be waiting a long time then! Brexit will be the prism everything is viewed through for decades to come.

yes, I fear you're right.

And will be blamed for everything for decades to come

Of course, I expect nothing less based on how the last 2 years have been. But I wonder if all the successes will also be attributed to brexit....I suspect not many.

 

[SwingsitlikeHogan]

All very nice that Budget - pity it will have to be chucked out of the window if we end up with No Deal and Hammond calls an Emergency Budget.

And just love how leading Brexit ministers (Hancock being but one) talk up the economy and how it is growing etc. and tell us how important it is to maintain the solid basis of our economy today - when Brexit will immediately undermine the basis of our economy as it has been built upon a foundation of the UK being in the EU.

Great. But there you go.

 

[Blue in Munich]

The new Brexit 50p designs have been leaked;



That must be SILH on the left!!

 

[drdel]

Merkel's transition and exiting politics in a few years and the consequential internal focus of Germany will not be good for the EU and/or Brexit.

 

[Blue in Munich]

I'd do just exactly what I want having been the recipient of all sorts of scorn and vitriol over the last two years on this.

But OK - all is well. All is tickety-boo. Today's meeting at Chequers is to rubber stamp the plan that has been in place and followed for the last 2 years

One day someone will admit that there never was a plan. Clearly those here are not ready to make that admission - rather deflection and counter charge remains the order of the day.

Clearly you've got no idea what people on here think because you don't engage in reasoned debate. As for the scorn and vitriol, you've handed out plenty; just as you sow you shall reap.

Frankly your attitude on here suggests you're massively on the wind up.

 

[ColchesterFC]

And will be blamed for everything for decades to come

Yep. Anything bad will be because of Brexit and anything good will be dismissed as it could've been better if we had still been in the EU.

 

[Old Skier]

- when Brexit will immediately undermine the basis of our economy

You know this as fact or did your mate in the pub tell you.

Please provide evidence to support your post 🤔