Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[Deleted member 15344]

Try reading what i said. "There is nothing in the EU we can't get from the rest of the world and MUCH of it cheaper" I didn't say EVERYTHING cheaper. My point was we have nothing to fear regarding trade with the EU, we can get products to replace them if needed. Obviously not the exact same make but I didn't think anyone would be silly enough to suggest that. As i have explained to you more than once the BMWs from outside was another reply to HK but you seem to want to ignore that. Also, the EU don't have exclusivity on quality control, its now very good in most of the world.
I haven't suggested people don't buy VWs or BMWs, that would be stupid, I am saying if the EU wanted to make buying them difficult people have alternative choices and it would only be the EU manufacturers that would suffer.

Again - “why will it be cheaper from outside the EU “ - it’s just a simple question.

If something is cheaper to import from outside the EU why wouldn’t we be doing it already ? Food , clothing , medicines etc.

Is it about 50% of imports from the EU - if we leave with no deal those imports will be affected , charges im sure will apply along the way , and those charges will filter down to the customer - us

I’m just trying to get some substance from you that those billions of pounds worth of imports from the EU are as easily replaced as you suggest and cheaper.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

http://madb.europa.eu/madb/indexPubli.htm

Above is the EU Commission's own database on tariffs.

2 quick ones. There isn't tariffs on cars from South Korea, e.g. Kia & Hyundai. There is a 10% tariff on cars from the USA.

As a separate issue, VAT. A minimum uniform VAT rate is set by the EU. Potentially, post-Brexit the VAT rate could be 'played with.'

You provide answers that I can understand and aren’t afraid to be blunt

So the question I ask is

We aren’t banned from importing anything from other countries ? Obviously we have trade deals with the EU etc that allow us to trade freely and easily and low cost ( not including mark ups etc )

We leave the EU with no deal and approx 50% of our imports ( is exports the same ? ) will suddenly have tariffs applied to them ? Those tarrifs will transfer to the customer I believe

So the customer will look outside the EU for this 50% gap in the imports that we need - are we going to be able to fill that gap and why would it be cheaper for us as what SR is suggesting

 

[ColchesterFC]

We leave the EU with no deal and approx 50% of our imports ( is exports the same ? ) will suddenly have tariffs applied to them ? Those tarrifs will transfer to the customer I believe

So the customer will look outside the EU for this 50% gap in the imports that we need - are we going to be able to fill that gap and why would it be cheaper for us as what SR is suggesting

There was a report recently that said that currently 80% of our goods are imported tariff free and that would rise to 87% under plans for when (if) we leave. On my Kindle so can't post a link but will try to find the report later.

 

[SocketRocket]

Again - “why will it be cheaper from outside the EU “ - it’s just a simple question.

If something is cheaper to import from outside the EU why wouldn’t we be doing it already ? Food , clothing , medicines etc.

Is it about 50% of imports from the EU - if we leave with no deal those imports will be affected , charges im sure will apply along the way , and those charges will filter down to the customer - us

I’m just trying to get some substance from you that those billions of pounds worth of imports from the EU are as easily replaced as you suggest and cheaper.

I did explain that to you. The EU apply import tariffs on many goods we import from outside the EU, these prices will be passed to the consumer. If we apply lower or zero tarrifs on these goods when out the EU the goods will be cheaper to buy. We don't apply tarrifs to exports, that's up to the country we export to.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I did explain that to you. The EU apply import tariffs on many goods we import from outside the EU, these prices will be passed to the consumer. If we apply lower or zero tarrifs on these goods when out the EU the goods will be cheaper to buy. We don't apply tarrifs to exports, that's up to the country we export to.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....-eu-face-9bn-tariff-bill-under-no-deal-brexit

So what about this forecast of £9bn extra tariffs

And this says cars possibly having an extra £1k on them

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/business-47551266

This is another report that reads not great

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-03-13...mports-from-outside-the-eu-in-no-deal-brexit/

 

[drdel]

How much extra do you think it will cost us ?

Its possible they'll charge us tariffs and we'll charge them - it of course depends on what and at what levels so who knows?

 

[Foxholer]

I can spot the problem. That silly chart is suggesting we will not export to the EU if we leave it....

To me, it's doing not anything of the sort! But it IS 'graphically' showing how much of UK's exports are with the EU

... Also, don't we sell anything to countries like India or Saudi. That's just playing games with reality.

Er...Saudi is the entry labelled....'Saudi...'! And if you notice, those non-EU countries are in order of value. India would probably be the next entry.

It's certainly attempting, and succeeding imo, to make a point - that exports to 'the EU' are very important to the UK. A counter argument could easily be made that treating the EU as if it's a single country is not valid - but that's a (historic, because of UK's membership of the group) categorisation that works for those trying to (corruptly?) use statistics to support their argument!

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Its possible they'll charge us tariffs and we'll charge them - it of course depends on what and at what levels so who knows?

However if we go onto WTO tariffs we have them imposed without the position to change them easily

 

[Hobbit]

You provide answers that I can understand and aren’t afraid to be blunt

So the question I ask is

We aren’t banned from importing anything from other countries ? Obviously we have trade deals with the EU etc that allow us to trade freely and easily and low cost ( not including mark ups etc )

We leave the EU with no deal and approx 50% of our imports ( is exports the same ? ) will suddenly have tariffs applied to them ? Those tarrifs will transfer to the customer I believe

So the customer will look outside the EU for this 50% gap in the imports that we need - are we going to be able to fill that gap and why would it be cheaper for us as what SR is suggesting

First of all, why will EU imports be subject to tariffs? They might if the EU apply tariffs to UK products but at present we don't know if the UK govt will apply tariffs, and may only do so in response to EU tariffs - - note, tariff wars don't usually help anyone, although the USA isn't doing too badly with its current protectionist attitude. I wonder if the EU will be difficult with its second biggest supplier of medicines after Switzerland?

Yes we aren't banned from importing from the rest of the world but at present some products are subjected to EU imposed tariffs and quotas(limits). If the UK left the EU the UK could drop the tariffs imposed on products from the rest of the world. However, people shouldn't get too carried away by the thought of tariffs coming off lots of products - a quick look through the tariff rates in the attachment to my last post on common products will show that the EU isn't as hugely protectionist as it used to be.

The "50% gap;" why will the UK stop importing those 50% of products from the EU? There's no reason for the UK to stop importing those products. If tariffs are applied to them, in response to tariffs from the EU, will the product price rise by the same percentage as the tariff applied? The UK could drop a few % off corporation tax, which the EU really does fear as that also attracts companies into a country - that's how Ireland turned around its recession and also why the EU has continued to chase the Irish govt, including fines, and companies who have set up there. The UK could also clip a bit off the EU regulated VAT rates.... end result; the price to the consumer could stay the same. That would also attract business to the UK.

For non-EU countries a Brexited Britain, without tariffs and quotas is a bigger market than it currently is, BUT they know the UK will be desperate to trade. Don't expect big favours, and tough negations will occur. A low tax Singapore-esque economy is a very attractive but if the UK govt's tax revenue drops who pays for the NHS? Think of it as a Chinese tile puzzle. Move all the tiles around might find different solutions, some of them great but it is a huge change of philosophy and structure to bring in those changes.

What no one knows is how trade will be hit. That also applies to the EU. For every horror story, some of which to be fair are real, there is often a counter story that is equally valid. Here's a thought, who is the EU's biggest trading partner? Not an individual EU country's biggest trading partner, e.g. Germany and the USA, but who is the EU's biggest net partner across all of the EU27? I've not followed it through but its allegedly the UK. Does the EU really want to hurt so many businesses in the EU?

 

[Foxholer]

I did explain that to you. The EU apply import tariffs on many goods we import from outside the EU, these prices will be passed to the consumer. If we apply lower or zero tarrifs on these goods when out the EU the goods will be cheaper to buy. We don't apply tarrifs to exports, that's up to the country we export to.

Not quite!

The EU require us (the UK) to apply tariffs on many.....

Whether the goods will be 'cheaper to buy' for the consumer, or simply 'cheaper, so more profitable' for the supply chain is a separate question. But potentially all (except maybe HMRC) should benefit.

 

[Foxholer]

Well JRM is constantly insider trading off his positions in the commons which is far more immoral

Evidence please!

Otherwise mere speculation - or even libelous comment!

 

[Deleted member 21784]

Evidence please!

Otherwise mere speculation - or even libelous comment!

Sorry I thought this thread wasn’t about evidence.. was about believing in something so much it became truth..

That’s what the last 200 pages feel like for sure.

 

[robinthehood]

To me, it's doing not anything of the sort! But it IS 'graphically' showing how much of UK's exports are with the EU

Er...Saudi is the entry labelled....'Saudi...'! And if you notice, those non-EU countries are in order of value. India would probably be the next entry.

It's certainly attempting, and succeeding imo, to make a point - that exports to 'the EU' are very important to the UK. A counter argument could easily be made that treating the EU as if it's a single country is not valid - but that's a (historic, because of UK's membership of the group) categorisation that works for those trying to (corruptly?) use statistics to support their argument!

Nice to see someone paying attention

 

[Foxholer]

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/op...jacob-rees-moggs-hard-brexit-erg-lobby-group/

Manipulating parliament from within.. whilst pocketing how much since brexit? All tax free ofc..

But ofc your hero is squeaky clean.

'Manipulating parliament' is commonly known as 'politics'! In fact, both major parties openly participant, at public expence, in that 'game'! It's called Whipping!

Sorry I thought this thread wasn’t about evidence.. was about believing in something so much it became truth..

That’s what the last 200 pages feel like for sure.

So are you going to produce evidence?

Or simply continue to (potentially) libel JMR?!

 

[Deleted member 21784]

'Manipulating parliament' is commonly known as 'politics'! In fact, both major parties openly participant, at public expence, in that 'game'! It's called Whipping!

So are you going to produce evidence?

Or simply continue to (potentially) libel JMR?!

He personally would benefit from a hard brexit for one. The Eu want to stop tax evasion by declaring companies in other countries (which has made him millions and not cost him tax) so he is a hard core Brexiter. Pushing for it and blocking any soft brexit

How is that not benefiting from his position? Which is insider trading as he can influence directly the laws of the country for his own financial gain

The man is pure scum.

 

[Foxholer]

That tweet shows the issue not my fault people don’t understand that they at the moment are more than all our other exports put together

Even a 20% fall in sales to them through brexit (not saying a complete no trade agreement) but say knock 20% off due to it becoming more difficult or any reason would damage our economy .. that would be over 70 billion wiped out just 20%... now put that in perspective .. 20% off that would be the same as knocking off 50% the rest of the world .. I don’t see the 20% being made up so easy ..

That’s why it’s so important

Any % knock off would be huge as they are our biggest customer

While I agree with some of what you are saying, there's a bit more involved than simply 'exports'! Much of those exports simply use UK as a convenient staging post for onward shipping of goods to the rest of EU. So while those 'exports' benefits would likely go, so would a certain amount of import 'cost'.

And remember the the EU doesn't buy anything from the UK! It's the 27 other members that do so!

 

[SocketRocket]

Sorry I thought this thread wasn’t about evidence.. was about believing in something so much it became truth..

That’s what the last 200 pages feel like for sure.

I take it you are aware that posting libellous accusations online does not exclude you from prosecution. JRM probably doesn't read this forum but its a small world. Take care.

 

[Foxholer]

He personally would benefit from a hard brexit for one. The Eu want to stop tax evasion by declaring companies in other countries (which has made him millions and not cost him tax) so he is a hard core Brexiter. Pushing for it and blocking any soft brexit

How is that not benefiting from his position? Which is insider trading as he can influence directly the laws of the country for his own financial gain

The man is pure scum.

That's not 'insider trading' though!

You should either produce evidence of real (illegal) insider trading or withdraw the accusation!

Believing he's 'pure scum' is, however, an opinion to which you are perfectly, if imo misguidedly, entitled to.

 

[Fish]

Those pro remainers should absorb this....

 

[SocketRocket]

However if we go onto WTO tariffs we have them imposed without the position to change them easily

No. We can set them but must use them uniformly.