Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

[bluewolf]

Really its a Forum of idle debate!

If you don't care what anyone on here thinks I'm at a loss as to why you bother posting comments - is it because you expect others to care and take unquestioning what you say from your position of superiority?

Perhaps you might tell me why you think senior staff from Brussels should play juvenile games by using press briefing to bleat on and trivialise the outcomes of meetings on social media in the midst of what I'd consider important discussions that will impact citizens on both sides.

These unelected characters like, Barneir, Junker, Tusk, Verhofstadt and Semayr are grandstanding with these silly tweets and playing to their peers in Brussels NOT to the citizens of the 27.

IMO it simply demonstrates what can go wrong when arrogant decision making is divorced from accountability.

Position of Superiority 😂😂

So anyone who disagrees with the cult of Brexit is somehow arrogant and condescending?

I don't care what anyone thinks because it won't make a blind bit of difference. I like to make an occasional comment to see if it helps or hinders. Do you just want people who agree with you

 

[Foxholer]

Never mind, it's hump day and it's all freewheelin' downhill to the weekend!

Damn! Just had to look that up, as I can't remember hearing it before!

Thought it might have an entirely different meaning altogether!

 

[Sweep]

I don't need to check the word government. Whether you like Farage or not, he and some of his, even more obnoxious friends represent you in the EU parliament. Are you saying you approve of Farage's past comments? If you do, what makes them better or different to Tusk's comments?

I didn’t say anything about Farage. I was talking about the UK govt particularly at a high and negotiating level.
The EU Parliament is worse than the HoC for baying debate. It’s the culture. And no, I don’t approve of this kind of debate from any side. It’s unprofessional and achieves nothing.

 

[drdel]

Position of Superiority 😂😂

So anyone who disagrees with the cult of Brexit is somehow arrogant and condescending?

I don't care what anyone thinks because it won't make a blind bit of difference. I like to make an occasional comment to see if it helps or hinders. Do you just want people who agree with you

I challenged the defence of Tusk not whether you support or oppose Brexit. Also note I was not insulted by Tusk's word I'm just saddened by the fact he, a supposedly intelligent person in an important position, chose to use it at a sensitive time. That's unless, of course, he is deliberately trying to play games.

 

[SocketRocket]

From both sides. 👍

But is it. Can you imagine May or anyone in her cabinet making such comments. I can't.

It's not the first time. tusk has used these antics either, remember his pathetic tweet about May and the cakes.

As someone holding a position exhaulting him onto the world stage it's petty and below his position.

 

[Hobbit]

I challenged the defence of Tusk not whether you support or oppose Brexit. Also note I was not insulted by Tusk's word I'm just saddened by the fact he, a supposedly intelligent person in an important position, chose to use it at a sensitive time. That's unless, of course, he is deliberately trying to play games.

Spot on!

Its not about whether Tusk believes what he said, its about him saying it in public right in the middle of one of the most critical times for the EU and the UK. They need the €39bn + all the add on's that are starting to appear. They need to protect Ireland's economy and the Good Friday Agreement. What he said was very unhelpful to both sides, and just feeds the No Deal cause.

 

[Foxholer]

Really its a Forum of idle debate!

If you don't care what anyone on here thinks I'm at a loss as to why you bother posting comments - is it because you expect others to care and take unquestioning what you say from your position of superiority?

Perhaps you might tell me why you think senior staff from Brussels should play juvenile games by using press briefing to bleat on and trivialise the outcomes of meetings on social media in the midst of what I'd consider important discussions that will impact citizens on both sides.

These unelected characters like, Barneir, Junker, Tusk, Verhofstadt and Semayr are grandstanding with these silly tweets and playing to their peers in Brussels NOT to the citizens of the 27.

IMO it simply demonstrates what can go wrong when arrogant decision making is divorced from accountability.

While I agree entirely with most of the sentiment above, please stop the continual fallacy that these (generally unsavoury imo) folk are unelected! While it's not the same as for the House of Commons (which can be argued as 'corrupt' for different reasons) or the Lords (likewise) there IS a 'vote of consent' performed by the European Parliament. It's would be almost as legitimate to state that members of Cabinet are 'unelected' imo!

 

[SocketRocket]

I suspect that he, like quite a few people, realise that the negotiation is well and truly over. May hasn't moved at all, despite the rather laughable votes that were held recently. They know full well that even if the EU did move, it wouldn't get through the HoC. I think they've given up now and are letting their frustrations out.

Does anyone on here actually think that a Deal is possible?

I do but only if we are strong enough to see the game through. The Wets are making that very difficult though

 

[Blue in Munich]

I suspect that he, like quite a few people, realise that the negotiation is well and truly over. May hasn't moved at all, despite the rather laughable votes that were held recently. They know full well that even if the EU did move, it wouldn't get through the HoC. I think they've given up now and are letting their frustrations out.

Does anyone on here actually think that a Deal is possible?

A deal is possible. It depends on both sides willingness to compromise.

And therein lies the issue. The EU is never going to willingly allow a net contributor to walk out the door with a decent deal. It threatens the stability of the whole union and certain individuals positions of power. They see our negotiating team, quite rightly in my opinion, as weak, and as such they aren't giving an inch; no compromise whatsoever. So no, I don't think a deal is achievable at the moment; at least not a deal beneficial to the UK.

The only way I foresee that happening is if we walk with no deal and then the EU is forced to negotiate to get anything out of us.

 

[drdel]

While I agree entirely with most of the sentiment above, please stop the continual fallacy that these (generally unsavoury imo) folk are unelected! While it's not the same as for the House of Commons (which can be argued as 'corrupt' for different reasons) or the Lords (likewise) there IS a 'vote of consent' performed by the European Parliament. It's would be almost as legitimate to state that members of Cabinet are 'unelected' imo!

Its a blinking golf Forum debate - I wish you'd stop giving out orders. I've worked with the EU at senior levels so there's no 'continual fallacy' in my understanding of its governance structure. You might look at the actual people referenced. A good example of dubious posting is Selmayr's appointment that followed a questionable process which involved no election by anyone !

 

[Hobbit]

Its a blinking golf Forum debate - I wish you'd stop giving out orders. I've worked with the EU at senior levels so there's no 'continually fallacy' in my understanding of its governance structure. You might look at the actual people referenced. A good example of dubious posting is Selmayr's appointment that followed a questionable process which involved no election by anyone !

You're being too British there. "followed a questionable process..." It was down right bent. Brexit aside, he is a very nasty piece of work with whoever he's dealing with.

 

[bluewolf]

I challenged the defence of Tusk not whether you support or oppose Brexit. Also note I was not insulted by Tusk's word I'm just saddened by the fact he, a supposedly intelligent person in an important position, chose to use it at a sensitive time. That's unless, of course, he is deliberately trying to play games.

It's interesting that people appear to be taking issue with his terminology and not his point...
And as far as playing games goes, both sides are adept at that. The current flip flopping by the ERG. May's shameless about face on the "Deal". Neither side comes out of this well. The only real measure of this whole thing is the comparative position of the UK and the EU in 5-10 years.

Oh, and do we genuinely think that the EU negotiating team don't see every attempt by British MP's like Francois and Kawazinki (so) to denigrate and demean them?

 

[Hobbit]

Oh, and do we genuinely think that the EU negotiating team don't see every attempt by British MP's like Francois and Kawazinki (so) to denigrate and demean them?

There's a world of a difference between some (relatively) unknown backbencher spouting off and Tusk having a pop.

 

[bluewolf]

There's a world of a difference between some (relatively) unknown backbencher spouting off and Tusk having a pop.

Not if they're not put in their place by the people they work alongside and also represent.
We'll have to agree to disagree there...

 

[Hobbit]

Not if they're not put in their place by the people they work alongside and also represent.
We'll have to agree to disagree there...

I look forward to Tusk being put in his place then...

 

[bluewolf]

I look forward to Tusk being put in his place then...

And I'll look forward to the Cabinet putting Johnson, R-M, Leadsom and a host of backbenchers in their place. We'd best not hold our breath though....

 

[drdel]

I look forward to Tusk being put in his place then...

He'll get promoted - which the main game in play.

 

[Mudball]

But is it. Can you imagine May or anyone in her cabinet making such comments. I can't.

It's not the first time. tusk has used these antics either, remember his pathetic tweet about May and the cakes.

As someone holding a position exhaulting him onto the world stage it's petty and below his position.

Can someone point the right honourable gentleman to the thread about the "Wise Words of Boris" where he has more than once decided to make good use of the English language for maximum result.. Funny he gets away with it, but Tusk wont. Acc 2 Laura, Tusk took shots at Brexiters as well as Remainers..

 

[drdel]

Can someone point the right honourable gentleman to the thread about the "Wise Words of Boris" where he has more than once decided to make good use of the English language for maximum result.. Funny he gets away with it, but Tusk wont. Acc 2 Laura, Tusk took shots at Brexiters as well as Remainers..

Boris is not one of the negotiators. He has the freedom/luxury of a backseat observer.

 

[Sweep]

While I agree entirely with most of the sentiment above, please stop the continual fallacy that these (generally unsavoury imo) folk are unelected! While it's not the same as for the House of Commons (which can be argued as 'corrupt' for different reasons) or the Lords (likewise) there IS a 'vote of consent' performed by the European Parliament. It's would be almost as legitimate to state that members of Cabinet are 'unelected' imo!

While I agree entirely with most of the sentiment above, please stop the continual fallacy that these (generally unsavoury imo) folk are unelected! While it's not the same as for the House of Commons (which can be argued as 'corrupt' for different reasons) or the Lords (likewise) there IS a 'vote of consent' performed by the European Parliament. It's would be almost as legitimate to state that members of Cabinet are 'unelected' imo!

the President of the European Commission, currently Jean Claude Juncker, is elected by the European Parliament. He is not and never has been an MEP (Juncker was PM of Luxembourg prior to his appointment). So it is nothing like our members of Cabinet who are in nearly all cases elected MP’s. They have appeared on ballot papers and have been elected before and by the people they govern. Juncker has not.
The President of the European Council is elected by members of the European Council. Prior to the Lisbon Treaty the arrangement was different but following Lisbon the Council elect a President for terms of 2.5 years. The current President is Donald Tusk. His name has never appeared on an EU ballot paper before the people the EU governs. So nothing like our Cabinet ministers either.
It could be claimed these and other “top dogs” are elected, but at best the democratic process is so diluted as to be virtually non-existent. In reality the people of the EU, (the ones who really count and who are the ones most often forgotten) cannot remove the people at the top of this level of government, which renders it undemocratic. And what you get when your leaders are not removable through the ballot box is nonsense like today’s Tusk debacle.
So I and I am sure others will continue to call into question these “leaders” democratic legitimacy, because we are right.