Brexit - or Article 50: the Phoenix!

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SocketRocket said:
We were not promised to reduce immigration to the 10s of thousands in the referendum, that was a previous target set by Cameron and he was a remainer, I think you know that.

Can you show me some link where the campaigns to leave actually stated no more 5 million immigrants from Turkey and four other aspiring nations by 2030.
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From the Vote Leave website - link to a Gove speech expanding on the immigration theme

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/20/eu-immigrant-influx-michael-gove-nhs-unsustainable

and also from that website - the £350m a week lie/deceit (it wasn't just on the side of a bus)

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_cost.html

All the scare stuff and deceits are on the front page though

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html

I particularly like the headline lie (as we all know that we could have controlled immigration much better if we had bothered or wanted to)

'Immigration will continue to be out of control'

...and the follow up clincher

'Imagine what it will be like in future decades when new, poorer counties join'

Imagine indeed - 76million from Turkey....

All the lies, deceits and dog whistling scares are there in plain sight on the Vote Leave website.

Such a pity.
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
Off to NZ, Oz and SE Asia tomorrow for four and a bit months with Mrs SILH (yes - I know - poor girl!!) and oh how I will miss the daily banter, badinage and gay repartee of this place - and oh how I'll miss the joys of UK on the 29th March, not - oh joys unbounded.

But wait. They have the internet down there - ah but I shall desist methinks from visiting here - maybe pop in around 29th March - or whenever - just to see how things are doing - if we have gone or if we are still going - or not as the case might be.
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What? A world exists outside Europe?!!! And they have internet?!!!
How are you going to get home after March 29? I thought all flights were going to be suspended? Have you got your blue passport?
Err Hogie, I know we have disagreed on this thread but we both always knew we are good mates really. Please don’t turn your back on us. Please send us water, chocolate so we can enjoy Easter, flowers for our mums on Mother’s Day. Medicine. And lettuce. Please send lettuce. And don’t take any notice of how great life is in Oz. After 2.5 years, we don’t want you coming back converted after seeing how well an independent country can do in the world.
Joking aside, have a great trip. It sounds amazing. 😀
 
SwingsitlikeHogan said:
From the Vote Leave website - link to a Gove speech expanding on the immigration theme

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/20/eu-immigrant-influx-michael-gove-nhs-unsustainable

and also from that website - the £350m a week lie/deceit (it wasn't just on the side of a bus)

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/briefing_cost.html

All the scare stuff and deceits are on the front page though

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html

I particularly like the headline lie (as we all know that we could have controlled immigration much better if we had bothered or wanted to)

'Immigration will continue to be out of control'

...and the follow up clincher

'Imagine what it will be like in future decades when new, poorer counties join'

Imagine indeed - 76million from Turkey....

All the lies, deceits and dog whistling scares are there in plain sight on the Vote Leave website.

Such a pity.
Click to expand...

And then you go and spoil it all by mentioning Turkey. I don't doubt some of your conclusions but how can you be taken seriously when you throw something in with a little spin. Turkey. Turkey had an application in to join the EU. The EU were making approving noises, especially as they wanted/want Turkey onside over immigration. And then there was the attempted coup, which was brutally put down by Erdogan. Macron says non, and Merkel says nien.

Turkey wasn't lies, but if it helps your argument(y)
 
I had a thought this morning...I'd vote to stay in a Common Market, but never the EU.

The former is abut trade and cooperation.... all the "ideals" the Remain Campaign talk about. Maybe that that is long gone, if it wasnt, there would be no EU Parliament, Judiciary, Central Bank etc....and we were never allowed to vote on the transition. Countires that did, had "no" votes" ignored.

Maybe that is why there is no consensus. Remainers are subconsiously (or otherwise) campaigning to stay in The Common Market. Leavers are campaigining against Federalism.
 
Hobbit said:
And then you go and spoil it all by mentioning Turkey. I don't doubt some of your conclusions but how can you be taken seriously when you throw something in with a little spin. Turkey. Turkey had an application in to join the EU. The EU were making approving noises, especially as they wanted/want Turkey onside over immigration. And then there was the attempted coup, which was brutally put down by Erdogan. Macron says non, and Merkel says nien.

Turkey wasn't lies, but if it helps your argument(y)
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Cameron said he would be their ambassador for membership.
 
IanM said:
I had a thought this morning...I'd vote to stay in a Common Market, but never the EU.

The former is abut trade and cooperation.... all the "ideals" the Remain Campaign talk about. Maybe that that is long gone, if it wasnt, there would be no EU Parliament, Judiciary, Central Bank etc....and we were never allowed to vote on the transition. Countires that did, had "no" votes" ignored.

Maybe that is why there is no consensus. Remainers are subconsiously (or otherwise) campaigning to stay in The Common Market. Leavers are campaigining against Federalism.
Click to expand...

I think, maybe, even that's too simplistic. The are some Remainers on here that prefer the EU creating laws on the environment and worker's rights as they don't trust our own governments. In effect, they are saying "I don't care that you voted for the Tories/Labour. We want the EU to govern us." Others want to Remain for ease of trade. And some Leavers don't want federalism but others want to restrict/stop immigration.
 
IanM said:
I had a thought this morning...I'd vote to stay in a Common Market, but never the EU.

The former is abut trade and cooperation.... all the "ideals" the Remain Campaign talk about. Maybe that that is long gone, if it wasnt, there would be no EU Parliament, Judiciary, Central Bank etc....and we were never allowed to vote on the transition. Countires that did, had "no" votes" ignored.

Maybe that is why there is no consensus. Remainers are subconsiously (or otherwise) campaigning to stay in The Common Market. Leavers are campaigining against Federalism.
Click to expand...


Funny that, I voted to join the Common Market but NOT the EU - but look what I ended up with!
 
SocketRocket said:
https://www.freshfruitportal.com/ne...ions-to-fast-track-perishable-exports-to-u-k/

Why cant this be the solution for all EU imports/exports of all goods, it would also solve the Irish question
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It’s clear that there are processes that could be put in place very quickly that would resolve this issue.
What I find interesting is that countries (in this case the Netherlands) can seem to find solutions for their own issues and loss of trade caused by Brexit (presumably because they realise the vast amount of business that is in clear danger of being lost) but will still vote with Barnier et al when they say the EU won’t renegotiate. It smacks of the self preservation of individual nations that represents everything the EU is against.

As an aside, this article states that the Netherlands is selling USD $1.4 billion worth of fresh fruit and vegetables to the UK every year. Equivalent to 50,000 trucks. That’s is a staggering amount. It makes me wonder why? Is the climate so much better in Holland? Could we not grow all this produce ourselves?
 
Sweep said:
It’s clear that there are processes that could be put in place very quickly that would resolve this issue.
What I find interesting is that countries (in this case the Netherlands) can seem to find solutions for their own issues and loss of trade caused by Brexit (presumably because they realise the vast amount of business that is in clear danger of being lost) but will still vote with Barnier et al when they say the EU won’t renegotiate. It smacks of the self preservation of individual nations that represents everything the EU is against.

As an aside, this article states that the Netherlands is selling USD $1.4 billion worth of fresh fruit and vegetables to the UK every year. Equivalent to 50,000 trucks. That’s is a staggering amount. It makes me wonder why? Is the climate so much better in Holland? Could we not grow all this produce ourselves?
Click to expand...

No it is not. There are at best suggestions that could work if they were properly evaluated and then executed. Some of which seem to involve vast IT infrastructure projects that will need to work with a massive range of products. Just because some Dutch fruit growers have come up with a suggestion using digital pre-clearance then the whole border thing in Ireland is easily resolvable is just poppycock. There have been many suggestions, but none have been proven to be a practical workable solution that can be implemented in the next 2 years. Hence the seeming need for a backstop.

And I am sure we could potentially grow that much ourselves if we wanted to make a fundamental change to our agricultural practices. Assuming we had people who were wiling to work on the farms, but remind me where we generally source that labour from at the moment.... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...migrant-workers-labour-shortage-a8469806.html
 
Hacker Khan said:
No it is not. There are at best suggestions that could work if they were properly evaluated and then executed. Some of which seem to involve vast IT infrastructure projects that will need to work with a massive range of products. Just because some Dutch fruit growers have come up with a suggestion using digital pre-clearance then the whole border thing in Ireland is easily resolvable is just poppycock. There have been many suggestions, but none have been proven to be a practical workable solution that can be implemented in the next 2 years. Hence the seeming need for a backstop.

And I am sure we could potentially grow that much ourselves if we wanted to make a fundamental change to our agricultural practices. Assuming we had people who were wiling to work on the farms, but remind me where we generally source that labour from at the moment.... https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...migrant-workers-labour-shortage-a8469806.html
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You sound as if you don't want it to work. Why so negative about the UK?

Is there not already vast IT systems that are pre-checking these massive range of products arriving and leaving the UK, I'm pretty sure its not all done on trust. You also say to use such a system in Ireland is 'Poppycock', maybe you can quantify this Poppycock. I think the reason these ideas have been kicked down the road are more to do with negotiating strategy than the difficulty with application.
 
Sweep said:
As an aside, this article states that the Netherlands is selling USD $1.4 billion worth of fresh fruit and vegetables to the UK every year. Equivalent to 50,000 trucks. That’s is a staggering amount. It makes me wonder why? Is the climate so much better in Holland? Could we not grow all this produce ourselves?
Click to expand...

I assume it's all grown in the massive greenhouses
 
Sweep said:
As an aside, this article states that the Netherlands is selling USD $1.4 billion worth of fresh fruit and vegetables to the UK every year. Equivalent to 50,000 trucks. That’s is a staggering amount. It makes me wonder why? Is the climate so much better in Holland? Could we not grow all this produce ourselves?
Click to expand...

They grow stuff the UK can't. It might be climate, it might be whatever. But the UK also exports over £20bn worth of food to the EU. The majority of the UK's food exports to the EU goes to Ireland.
 
Sweep said:
It’s clear that there are processes that could be put in place very quickly that would resolve this issue.
Click to expand...

Yes there are, and they are already in use in the UK and the EU. I've used them both for imports and exports within the EU, to countries where there are agreements, e.g. Norway, and to countries in South and North America, Africa, the Middle East, the Far East and to Russia.

And as a manufacturer, that also means importing components and then getting CE approval or FDA approval or whatever the local approval is for the country you're exporting the finished product to. This isn't difficult!!!!!!! The UK has been doing it for donkey's years. When a new customer, in a new country to us, placed an order it took a couple of hours to process the order. When they placed their second order it took minutes.

What will change post-Brexit? In the drop down menu for the 3rd country you're importing from or exporting to you will add in all the EU 27. Where an agreement is in place, country 'x' may have a different tariff rate, there'll be a box to enter in the tariff rates. This isn't difficult!!!!! The UK has been doing it for donkey's years.

The accounting part of our IT system was blocked Dec 30th globally whilst all the new prices etc were done. It was unblocked on the 3-4th Jan, and surprise surprise, all the new data was accessible and up and running. Within that package were tariff rates and customers/countries. This isn't difficult!!!!

Hacker Khan said:
No it is not. There are at best suggestions that could work if they were properly evaluated and then executed. Some of which seem to involve vast IT infrastructure projects that will need to work with a massive range of products. Just because some Dutch fruit growers have come up with a suggestion using digital pre-clearance then the whole border thing in Ireland is easily resolvable is just poppycock. There have been many suggestions, but none have been proven to be a practical workable solution that can be implemented in the next 2 years. Hence the seeming need for a backstop.
Click to expand...

What is so different between importing/exporting from/to, say, Mexico? The systems are already available, tried and tested. Hell's teeth, most of the goods transiting through Rotterdam/London/Dublin/Hamburg etc are done with electronic documentation. Taxes and tariffs are collected electronically. No one stands at the dock gates with a money bag.

"Massive range of products..." Those products are already listed with their global classifications on company IT systems throughout the world. And they are listed on Customs systems throughout the world too.

What is missing is the size of infrastructure, that's all. And even then, its with HMRC and the various EU customs houses. A company shipping 100 boxes the day before Brexit could ship 100 boxes the day after Brexit. They change the end user (electronic) docs to reflect the 'new' country and tariff applicable, thats all. There's a massive change at HMRC level in the number of transactions that might need inspecting, and do they want extra Customs Officers, that's pretty much it. Lots of new data entry to set it up but a few months in and its all done.

I genuinely can't understand the problems. In fact, there aren't any. Change the country classification on the IT system, and collect the tariffs/taxes for HMRC. HMRC changes the country classification their end. Its about the scale of new transactions that fall under the potential need for inspections, that's all.

All this it can't be done is just complete rollox.
 
Hobbit said:
Yes there are, and they are already in use in the UK and the EU. I've used them both for imports and exports within the EU, to countries where there are agreements, e.g. Norway, and to countries in South and North America, Africa, the Middle East, the Far East and to Russia.

And as a manufacturer, that also means importing components and then getting CE approval or FDA approval or whatever the local approval is for the country you're exporting the finished product to. This isn't difficult!!!!!!! The UK has been doing it for donkey's years. When a new customer, in a new country to us, placed an order it took a couple of hours to process the order. When they placed their second order it took minutes.

What will change post-Brexit? In the drop down menu for the 3rd country you're importing from or exporting to you will add in all the EU 27. Where an agreement is in place, country 'x' may have a different tariff rate, there'll be a box to enter in the tariff rates. This isn't difficult!!!!! The UK has been doing it for donkey's years.

The accounting part of our IT system was blocked Dec 30th globally whilst all the new prices etc were done. It was unblocked on the 3-4th Jan, and surprise surprise, all the new data was accessible and up and running. Within that package were tariff rates and customers/countries. This isn't difficult!!!!



What is so different between importing/exporting from/to, say, Mexico? The systems are already available, tried and tested. Hell's teeth, most of the goods transiting through Rotterdam/London/Dublin/Hamburg etc are done with electronic documentation. Taxes and tariffs are collected electronically. No one stands at the dock gates with a money bag.

"Massive range of products..." Those products are already listed with their global classifications on company IT systems throughout the world. And they are listed on Customs systems throughout the world too.

What is missing is the size of infrastructure, that's all. And even then, its with HMRC and the various EU customs houses. A company shipping 100 boxes the day before Brexit could ship 100 boxes the day after Brexit. They change the end user (electronic) docs to reflect the 'new' country and tariff applicable, thats all. There's a massive change at HMRC level in the number of transactions that might need inspecting, and do they want extra Customs Officers, that's pretty much it. Lots of new data entry to set it up but a few months in and its all done.

I genuinely can't understand the problems. In fact, there aren't any. Change the country classification on the IT system, and collect the tariffs/taxes for HMRC. HMRC changes the country classification their end. Its about the scale of new transactions that fall under the potential need for inspections, that's all.

All this it can't be done is just complete rollox.
Click to expand...

Totally agree. Global supply chains work smoothly everyday. BMW/Mercedes/Ford and others manage to make cars outside of the EU and sell them inside the EU !!

IMO cheap transport means companies 'double handle' and move stuff around to so-called 'centres of excellence' through 'hub and spoke' logistics. This strategy used to be true but now automated/robotic manufacturing/agriculture has brought the fixed cost down. But I'm afraid a considerable number of companies do not know their fixed and variable cost drivers and thus a frightened by any change.
 
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