Ball moved from the tee but not with a club

[sajkox]

Situation :

ball is on the tee. I have addressed it and try to execute a stroke (intention is there)
I hit ground before the ball so badly that it stops the club (man it hurts), but the bits of earth move the ball from the tee.


Question:
Is the ball in play ? Has there been a stroke ?

 

[rickg]

Yes......

 

[Whee]

Situation :

ball is on the tee. I have addressed it and try to execute a stroke (intention is there)
I hit ground before the ball so badly that it stops the club (man it hurts), but the bits of earth move the ball from the tee.


Question:
Is the ball in play ? Has there been a stroke ?

It's an 'air shot' of sorts, and should count as a stroke.

I remember having one with my 3 wood, caught the ground about a foot behind the ball. Club face bounced over it, leaving it exactly where it was.

Yours is different, equally as embarrassing mind, there's no getting away from that haha!

 

[Colin L]

And since your ball is in play, you will have to play it as it lies.

At least with an airshot, your ball is still teed up.

 

[Crow]

For the next shot, the tee is still in the ground and so embedded.

The ball was knocked off the tee and the tee is right behind your ball and will be between club and ball for your next stroke, can your remove the tee?

 

[Colin L]

Yes. Your tee is an obstruction which you can remove. Replace the ball without penalty if it is moved in the process.

 

[Crow]

Thanks Colin.

 

[Colin L]

You know, I can't resist following up with a daft thought. If you have an airshot on the tee, you will be quite happy that at least it is still teed up, unlike the situation in the OP. But your ball is now lying on an obstruction from which you can get relief. So you could, I suppose, lift your ball, remove the tee and drop the ball. You could even give it another wee polish. As I say, a daft thought since I can't imagine anyone wanting to do that but it sounds right to me.

 

[rulefan]

Further, if preferred lies in operation and the tee is still in the ground within the required distance (6" or 1cl etc) then the ball may be placed on the tee, providing the teeing ground is closely mown.

 

[williamalex1]

A few years ago Tiger Woods pulled out of a swing on the tee because a bird flew near his ball. In that situation if the ball had moved of the tee, would he have been penalised .

 

[backwoodsman]

Further, if preferred lies in operation and the tee is still in the ground within the required distance (6" or 1cl etc) then the ball may be placed on the tee, providing the teeing ground is closely mown.

Don't think so. Specimen rule for preferred lies is meant to operate on closely mown grass through the green. The teeing ground is not through the green. Play the ball as it lies. Put it back on the tee and you're playing stroke & distance

 

[Crow]

A few years ago Tiger Woods pulled out of a swing on the tee because a bird flew near his ball. In that situation if the ball had moved of the tee, would he have been penalised .

No because he hadn't made a stroke at the ball and so it wasn't in play, however, if he'd previously played a storke but made an air shot then his ball would now have been in play and for the subsequent movement during the aborted swing a penalty would have applied.

From the R&A - A "stroke" is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball, but if a player checks his downswing voluntarily before the clubhead reaches the ball he has not made a stroke.

 

[rulefan]

Don't think so. Specimen rule for preferred lies is meant to operate on closely mown grass through the green. The teeing ground is not through the green. Play the ball as it lies. Put it back on the tee and you're playing stroke & distance

The R&A have said that, by analogy to Decision 25-2/8, and the second paragraph of the answer, a player would be entitled to take relief under the Preferred Lies Local Rule,

 

[Colin L]

Don't think so. Specimen rule for preferred lies is meant to operate on closely mown grass through the green. The teeing ground is not through the green. Play the ball as it lies. Put it back on the tee and you're playing stroke & distance

Look at the Definition of teeing ground as the starting place for the hole to be played and consider what that bit of ground is in effect once a player has started the hole ie put a ball into play.

I need to edit this a bit - it is too cryptic. Back soon!

 

[rulefan]

Look at the Definition of teeing ground as the starting place for the hole to be played and consider what that bit of ground is in effect once a player has started the hole ie put a ball into play.

I need to edit this a bit - it is too cryptic. Back soon!

Colin
The teteing ground is the starting place for the hole being played; however, even once a ball is in play on the hole, the teeing ground remains the starting place for that hole. Therefore is still through the green.

25-2/8 is a ruling in equity.

 

[Colin L]

I was indeed needing to expand on the overly brief remark, but had to concentrate on a TV programme!

I was surmising that where you would get relief one way or another through the green (eg embedded ball and in this instance, a preferred lie) it is reasonable to allow the same relief when a ball in play ends up on the teeing ground - whether through a rebound, a duff or whatever else this strange game of ours can throw up. Reasonable because in those instances, where the player's ball has come to rest really has no relationship to the teeing ground now that the player has started the hole. It just happens to be there. That's in contrast to, say, your ball going OOB or being lost off the tee, where your next stroke does relate to the teeing ground.

Well, I think I know what I mean. It's really just an attempt to find the rationale for the Decision instead of just saying that's the way it is, because that's what it says.

 

[backwoodsman]

I was indeed needing to expand on the overly brief remark, but had to concentrate on a TV programme!

I was surmising that where you would get relief one way or another through the green (eg embedded ball and in this instance, a preferred lie) it is reasonable to allow the same relief when a ball in play ends up on the teeing ground - whether through a rebound, a duff or whatever else this strange game of ours can throw up. Reasonable because in those instances, where the player's ball has come to rest really has no relationship to the teeing ground now that the player has started the hole. It just happens to be there. That's in contrast to, say, your ball going OOB or being lost off the tee, where your next stroke does relate to the teeing ground.

Well, I think I know what I mean. It's really just an attempt to find the rationale for the Decision instead of just saying that's the way it is, because that's what it says.

Ok - I stand corrected and point taken. Which i take to be that the rationale of 25-2/8 is that, although the teeing ground is not through the green (by definition), having played a your opening stroke, the fact of it being the teeing ground is no longer relevant ?

 

[Colin L]

Ok - I stand corrected and point taken. Which i take to be that the rationale of 25-2/8 is that, although the teeing ground is not through the green (by definition), having played a your opening stroke, the fact of it being the teeing ground is no longer relevant ?

I didn't mean to suggest that the teeing ground is generally not relevant after your opening stroke. If you thump your tee shot OOB, for example, it certainly is. I was trying to explain how I see the rationale behind the allowance that relief can be taken from an embedded ball and other relief situations on the teeing ground after your first stroke. My interpretation is that the fact that the ball is on the teeing ground has no significance: it could be any place where relief is allowed. In the absence of a Rule to cover this, the Decision tells us it that because you get relief through the green, it is equitable to allow you relief on the teeing ground as well.

Sorry my first post was so brief and unhelpful. I will write out 100 times, "I must not respond to rules questions while trying to follow a murder mystery on TV."

 

[spawn_ukuk]

If you intended to hit the ball, no matter what happened its a stroke

 

[rulefan]

Ok - I stand corrected and point taken. Which i take to be that the rationale of 25-2/8 is that, although the teeing ground is not through the green (by definition), having played a your opening stroke, the fact of it being the teeing ground is no longer relevant ?

It is relevant in certain circumstances. eg if your ball rebounds (from any stroke) and finishes on the teeing ground you may improve your lie by tapping down any bump that happens to be behind your ball.