Ball hits flagstick laid on the fringe

[LincolnShep]

I was playing in a society day out last weekend (it's stroke play). Stood on the tee of a downhill par 4. We can see the group ahead are putting out and that they have removed the flag and placed it on the fringe at the back of the green.

Not expecting to reach the green, one of my FCs plays his tee shot and it gets a huge forward kick and just keeps rolling... right through the middle of the green, hits the flagstick (which is still laid on the ground) and comes to rest.

Should there have been a two stroke penalty for striking the flag?

Thanks and regards,
Shep

 

[BTatHome]

Nope, the ball was played from the tee. A penalty would only apply if they were on the green.

 

[Spuddy]

Decision 17-3/3 scenario c covers this exactly. No penalty

 

[LincolnShep]

That's great, thank you both!

 

[Val]

A penalty would only apply if they were on the green.

Are you sure? Bear in mind the flagstick is on the fringe and to hit it you are putting off the green.

Not trying to be smart, genuinely interested as my thought is it would still be no penalty because the flagstick isn't on the green. I haven't searched for an appropriate ruling though.

 

[Spuddy]

Are you sure? Bear in mind the flagstick is on the fringe and to hit it you are putting off the green.

Not trying to be smart, genuinely interested as my thought is it would still be no penalty because the flagstick isn't on the green. I haven't searched for an appropriate ruling though.

If you were just off the green and thinned your chip through, striking the flag that you had removed and lay down off the other side then it would be a penalty as per 17-3. The decision I mentioned above covers this scenario as well.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Are you sure? Bear in mind the flagstick is on the fringe and to hit it you are putting off the green.

Not trying to be smart, genuinely interested as my thought is it would still be no penalty because the flagstick isn't on the green. I haven't searched for an appropriate ruling though.

Here you go mate.

17-3/3 Ball Strikes Flagstick Lying on Ground

Q. Generally, the players ball must not strike the flagstick when removed from the hole (Rule 17-3). What is the ruling in the following situations:
(a) A player putts too strongly and his ball strikes the flagstick which has been removed by someone in his match or group and placed on the ground behind the hole.
(b) A player plays his second shot to the green and the ball strikes the flagstick, which had been blown down by the wind and was lying on the ground.
(c) A player, not believing he can reach the green which is occupied by the preceding match or group, plays his second shot at a par-5 hole and the ball rolls onto the green and strikes the flagstick which has been removed from the hole and placed on the ground by someone in the preceding match or group.

A. (a) The player incurs a penalty of loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play under Rule 17-3a.
(b) and (c) No penalty is incurred. Rule 17-3a is not applicable in either case. It applies only when the flagstick has been removed with the players authority or prior knowledge by someone in the players match or group

 

[Val]

Just to be clear then, this rule is for flagstick on the ground anywhere not just in the green?

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Just to be clear then, this rule is for flagstick on the ground anywhere not just in the green?

I would think so, as the wind example simply says ground
(b) A player plays his second shot to the green and the ball strikes the flagstick, which had been blown down by the wind and was lying on the ground.

 

[rulefan]

Just to be clear then, this rule is for flagstick on the ground anywhere not just in the green?

Note that
(a) simply says 'removed'. It doesn't say where to.
(b) is the only clause that makes reference to the putting green.


[h=3]17-3. Ball Striking Flagstick or Attendant[/h]The player's ball must not strike:

a.
The flagstick when it is attended, removed or held up;

b.
The person attending or holding up the flagstick or anything carried by him; or

c.
The flagstick in the hole, unattended, when the stroke has been made on the putting green.

Exception: When the flagstick is attended, removed or held up without the player's authority - see Rule 17-2.

 

[Foxholer]

Are you sure? Bear in mind the flagstick is on the fringe and to hit it you are putting off the green.

Not trying to be smart, genuinely interested as my thought is it would still be no penalty because the flagstick isn't on the green. I haven't searched for an appropriate ruling though.

It's where the stroke is made from that is important, not where the flagstick is. See Rulefan's Post 10 for the wording.

 

[Val]

Thanks for clarification chaps

 

[3offTheTee]

What happens if a player putts on the green and the flagstick is half on the green and half on the fringe.

A. if the ball hits the part of the flag which is on the green.
B. If the ball hits the part of the flag which is off the green but the other part is on the green.

 

[Colin L]

What happens if a player putts on the green and the flagstick is half on the green and half on the fringe.

A. if the ball hits the part of the flag which is on the green.
B. If the ball hits the part of the flag which is off the green but the other part is on the green.

Have another read of Rule 17-3 and the responses in this thread and ask yourself:
has the flagstick been removed;
has it been struck by a ball;
is there a penalty for striking a removed flagstick with a ball;
does the rule say anything about where the flagstick needs to be for there to be a penalty for hitting it?

Oh, and ask the player if he needs a putting lesson