ball driven into lake

[bignev]

Think he got this right but thought Id ask the forum their views.
During a match yesterday one of my playing partners drove into the lake on the 6th and we all saw
the splash.
He then said he was playing a provisional which he did and put it on the fairway level to where his ball entered the water.
when we got down to the lake a ball possible his was in full view but unreachable.
He declared it as his ball so dropped another ball in line with where his original had entered the water played it and picked up the provisional saying that the dropped ball was now the ball in play.
Was this the correct course of action or as we had all seen it go in the lake from the tee should he have just walked to the lake and dropped the new ball without hitting the provisional.
Or was the provisional the ball in play as the ball in the lake was not identified as his.

 

[Scotty_Tom]

As far as I know, if you all saw it go in, then its in the lake and he could either reload off the tee, or take a drop at the lake. Once he has hit the provisional off the tee that is the ball in play, whether or not he can find his ball in the lake. He played the provisional from the tee, and that is that.

 

[MadAdey]

Unless I am wrong you can declare to play a provisional ball at any time. If you find your first one though you have to play it. So IMO by dropping back from the hazard and playing 3 from there was within the rules.

 

[srixon 1]

Not allowed to hit a provisional if a ball is lost in water (or thought to be lost in water) unless a local rule is declared. His provisional should have been in play from the off.

 

[guest100718]

If you saw the ball go in the water then you dont play a provisional, I would have that thought that the "Provisional" ball became the ball in play?

 

[Maninblack4612]

Rule 27-2 (a) applies. You can't play a provisional ball under those circumstances.

Why did he play a provisional ball? You haven't said. If he thought it may be lost, but outside the hazard, then he acted correctly, but that's hard to understand if everyone saw the splash. You don't need to see the ball in the hazard, for obvious reasons.

 

[pbrown7582]

Water hazard the only time your not allowed to hit a provisional. Was he just after a practice drive?

 

[delc]

Think he got this right but thought Id ask the forum their views.
During a match yesterday one of my playing partners drove into the lake on the 6th and we all saw
the splash.
He then said he was playing a provisional which he did and put it on the fairway level to where his ball entered the water.
when we got down to the lake a ball possible his was in full view but unreachable.
He declared it as his ball so dropped another ball in line with where his original had entered the water played it and picked up the provisional saying that the dropped ball was now the ball in play.
Was this the correct course of action or as we had all seen it go in the lake from the tee should he have just walked to the lake and dropped the new ball without hitting the provisional.
Or was the provisional the ball in play as the ball in the lake was not identified as his.

If the ball was in the lake then the provisional ball becomes the ball in play with a stroke and distance penalty. If you know or are virtually certain that a ball has entered a water hazard, it is generally better to just walk up and take a penalty drop at the correct point, as this will normally reduce the distance penalty. If you find the original ball outside the water hazard you can still play it without penalty. Rule 26-1 btw

 

[Maninblack4612]

Water hazard the only time your not allowed to hit a provisional. Was he just after a practice drive?

Provisional is also not allowed for a ball that may be unplayable.

 

[Foxholer]

Provisional is also not allowed for a ball that may be unplayable.

Actually, but not surprisingly, better to simply state what the Rule states.

"If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally...."

So quite entitled to hit a Provisional anytime. But absolutely no way to subsequently claim, without identification, that it's in the Water Hazard!

So a number of things wrong there!

The only time to play a Provisional ball when the original ball MAY have gone in the water is when it may actually be lost - say, in the long grass/reeds etc that can surround some ponds. If you can't find the ball, then you cannot claim it's in the water - because you have already eliminated the 'Known or virtually certain' requirement by suggesting it may actually be lost. If you get to the area and can't find/identify it, then it's lost and you carry on, under penalty, with your Provisional - even though you may be pretty sure it's in the WHl

If, in the same scenario, you see a ball in the water that you think is yours, then you must be able to identify it as yours (claiming it is is not enough) in order to be able to discard the Provisional and use another WH option.

So, in effect, playing a Provisional ball means you are playing it as if it's a lost ball. If you subsequently find (and identify) it in the WH, it's no different to finding it in long grass - that's the ball in play and the Provisional ball must be abandoned.

 

[Jack_bfc]

Think he got this right but thought Id ask the forum their views.
During a match yesterday one of my playing partners drove into the lake on the 6th and we all saw
the splash.
He then said he was playing a provisional which he did and put it on the fairway level to where his ball entered the water.
when we got down to the lake a ball possible his was in full view but unreachable.
He declared it as his ball so dropped another ball in line with where his original had entered the water played it and picked up the provisional saying that the dropped ball was now the ball in play.
Was this the correct course of action or as we had all seen it go in the lake from the tee should he have just walked to the lake and dropped the new ball without hitting the provisional.
Or was the provisional the ball in play as the ball in the lake was not identified as his.

'and we all saw
the splash.'

That's the key statement surely, obvious in the WH then don't need to look for, or identify ball. If he hits another off the tee its not a provisional its just his 3rd shot. Can't then change his mind.

 

[Foxholer]

'and we all saw
the splash.'

That's the key statement surely, obvious in the WH then don't need to look for, or identify ball. If he hits another off the tee its not a provisional its just his 3rd shot. Can't then change his mind.

Not necessarily - though I agree with the 'Can't then change his mind'. By playing the Provisional he cannot claim that it's in the WH without identifying it.

A splash, or 2, on the far side of a WH might result in the ball ending up outside the WH, so he would be quite entitled to (and must) play it from where it ended up. A bit daft to play the Provo, but plenty of daft things happen on a golf course!.

 

[BillyBeardie]

First go here so be nice to me! Essentially the idea is that the golfer should never have a choice as to which ball he plays once he's seen where both are...

 

[Foxholer]

First go here so be nice to me! Essentially the idea is that the golfer should never have a choice as to which ball he plays once he's seen where both are...

Correct! Or at least should only have the choices as provided by the Rules, not by anything he/she has done.

And welcome!

 

[Jack_bfc]

Not necessarily - though I agree with the 'Can't then change his mind'. By playing the Provisional he cannot claim that it's in the WH without identifying it.

A splash, or 2, on the far side of a WH might result in the ball ending up outside the WH, so he would be quite entitled to (and must) play it from where it ended up. A bit daft to play the Provo, but plenty of daft things happen on a golf course!.

So your envisage a skimming ball or the Barnes Wallis effect...

Fair enough, I have seen that done. I was presuming the splash was seen meaning the ball stayed in the water. I have done a skimmer but that was thinning a 9iron off the tee over a pond..

 

[atticusfinch]

You can't play a provisional if the original is in a water hazard. The ball he called a provisional is actually his penalty ball for the lake ball. He is now lying three in the fairway. But it does not end there. He picked up the "provisional" (his ball in play) without any authority in the rules. This constituted moving the ball in play and incurred a penalty of one stroke and must replace the ball. R.18-2a. He did not do that and holed out with the wrongly substituted ball. (The ball he dropped for the one in the lake.) That incurred an additional two penalty strokes. R. 15-2. So in addition to his strokes he should add three penalty strokes for the hole. I probably forgot something.

 

[Foxholer]

You can't play a provisional if the original is in a water hazard. The ball he called a provisional is actually his penalty ball for the lake ball....

Surely, only if he played it knowing it was in the hazard.

If it could possibly be lost, then a Provisional is fine - but subsequently claiming virtual certainty (notice the missing 'known') that it's in WH cannot be done. In that case, announcement should make that clear - including something like 'that ball may be Lost; this ball is Provisional'.

Of course, seeing a splash, as in this case, would give a much better indication of where the ball was likely to be!

 

[atticusfinch]

Yes, I take the facts presented in these cases as what they appear and not trying to set up some subtle test. They all saw it splash. It's in the water. No provisional.

 

[Foxholer]

Yes, I take the facts presented in these cases as what they appear and not trying to set up some subtle test. They all saw it splash. It's in the water. No provisional.

That's entirely reasonable - especially in this case. But there's an implicit 'In this case' required, otherwise the occasional subtle differences can easily morph into myths.

It took a lot of badgering to get an old club to get them to change some simple WH marking to prevent a 'Lost vs in the WH' conflict. No splash visible as WH 30 yards past top of slope. But ball used to quite often stay in thick grass on slope, so couldn't be sure that it really entered WH! By making the boundary back at top of slope, a ball could be seen to go into the hazard. It was (and now is) one of the best holes on the course, but made a bit 'silly' by the confusion.

 

[atticusfinch]

You mean "explicit" right?