Ball comes to rest on prepared Temporary Winter Green whilst summer Competition is still being played

[3offTheTee]

We are in ‘the changeover ‘ period where the temporary winter greens have been mowed although not in use at present.

On our scorecard it states in NON competition golf the ball MUST be lifted and dropped at nearest point of relief. In competitions it MUST be played as it lies.

My ball landed on the on mowed area and somebody said there is a rule which states that relief should be taken at nearest point of relief.

Is this correct? If so where is the rule please?

if I played from the newly mowed area, despite what our scorecard says, should I be penalised a general penalty. This is no mention of the new rule in the locker room or on view.

Thank you

 

[mikejohnchapman]

The norm is that a local rule would say that the ball must be removed from an area designated as a temporary green. If it isn't designated I guess it's just part of the general area.

In extremis I guess they could be designated as No Play Zones - again a must move.

Doesn't seem a lot of point allowing shots to be played (and presumably divots taken) on a temporary green if you are going to use them for several months during the winter.

 

[rulie]

It's Rule 13.1f and it says that free relief MUST be taken from a wrong putting green. The real question to be answered is whether your Committee in charge of the competition considers this mowed area a wrong putting green.

 

[3offTheTee]

It's Rule 13.1f and it says that free relief MUST be taken from a wrong putting green. The real question to be answered is whether your Committee in charge of the competition considers this mowed area a wrong putting green.

Thanks Rulie.

Difficult to say whether it is a wrong green, however it is not one of the other 17 greens on the course which I would feel to be a wrong green. This is a prepared temporary Wintergreen not yet in use and whilst our card may be out of date, especially quoting an old rule I feel a mowed area is not a wrong putting green.

 

[rulefan]

Putting Green is now defined as The area on the hole the player is playing that: Is specially prepared for putting
A Wrong Green is now defined as: Any green on the course other than the putting green for the hole the player is playing.

There certainly seem to be hole in the wording. An area that is prepared for putting but not being used is not covered specifically.
Although an example of a wrong green includes The normal putting green for a hole where a temporary green is being used
IMO it would not be wrong to include the converse but it doesn't say that.

 

[3offTheTee]

Cheers RF..

it is not a green on the course though. It is a prepared temporary green. The temporary green has probably been cut 3/4 times now but say 1 month ago it may have been cut once at a higher level. One month ago should relief have been taken?

However like always RF I bow to your superior knowledge.

I played within the rules on the card and played it as it lied Whilst it did not matter would I be subject a general penalty?

 

[duncan mackie]

Thanks Rulie.

Difficult to say whether it is a wrong green, however it is not one of the other 17 greens on the course which I would feel to be a wrong green. This is a prepared temporary Wintergreen not yet in use and whilst our card may be out of date, especially quoting an old rule I feel a mowed area is not a wrong putting green.

Just to try and help with your thinking...when the winter greens are in play how would you describe the current main greens? Put another way at some point there are going to be 35 wrong putting greens on your 18 hole course.
The real issue here is that because, from what you say, the winter greens are not clearly marked and considered wrong putting greens for 12 months of the year, there is a question as to at what point the status of those areas changes - this is the question for the committee to make clear.
They may feel that they are doing this with the introduction of that LR/guidance note; but it would be far better to make a clearer statement along the lines of "WEF 1/10 (or whatever) the areas being prepared for winter greens are wrong putting greens; Rule 13 1 f applies".
Equally they should close the situation clearly when they take them out of play.
It's not for the players to make such judgement calls.

 

[3offTheTee]

Just to try and help with your thinking...when the winter greens are in play how would you describe the current main greens? Put another way at some point there are going to be 35 wrong putting greens on your 18 hole course.
The real issue here is that because, from what you say, the winter greens are not clearly marked and considered wrong putting greens for 12 months of the year, there is a question as to at what point the status of those areas changes - this is the question for the committee to make clear.
They may feel that they are doing this with the introduction of that LR/guidance note; but it would be far better to make a clearer statement along the lines of "WEF 1/10 (or whatever) the areas being prepared for winter greens are wrong putting greens; Rule 13 1 f applies".
Equally they should close the situation clearly when they take them out of play.
It's not for the players to make such judgement calls.

Very practical solution Duncan. thanks

 

[Colin L]

Exactly as Duncan says. You need to define how a temporary green is recognised as a wrong green during one period of the year and not at another. My club uses a broken white line round the area and there is a Local Rule defining such an area as a wrong green. That means at this time of year the course staff just have to mark them with the broken line. No requirement for a notice although we normally post a reminder.

 

[backwoodsman]

Here's a thought - which may, or may not help people to a conclusion. Does the area currently being prepared as a temporary green have a hole cut in it, with a flag in it? If not, can the area be truly described as "the area of the course specially prepared for putting" as per the definition of a green?. Surely one can argue that without a hole or flag, it cant even be regarded as adequately prepared, let alone "specially prepared". So could that mean it isn't (can't be even?) a temporary green.

 

[mikejohnchapman]

Here's a thought - which may, or may not help people to a conclusion. Does the area currently being prepared as a temporary green have a hole cut in it, with a flag in it? If not, can the area be truly described as "the area of the course specially prepared for putting" as per the definition of a green?. Surely one can argue that without a hole or flag, it cant even be regarded as adequately prepared, let alone "specially prepared". So could that mean it isn't (can't be even?) a temporary green.

Ours are lined and do have a hole - but no flag. They are used when work is being done on a hole throughout the year.

To avoid confusion why not designate all temporary greens NPZ?

 

[rulefan]

Not disagreeing with the point but I have never seen the presence of a flagstick being necessary but have always said that a hole and defined cut means 'prepared'. As it happens, when our greenkeeper 'prepares' the area he marks it with a dotted white line (a la Colin's club).
Further, two flagsticks on one hole could be very confusing.

 

[3offTheTee]

Returning to post #6.

If I played in accordance with the card and did not class it as a wrong green would I be penalised. What I am asking do the rules on the card override the Rules of Golf? From post #5 RF implied either could be correct unless I have misinterpreted.

 

[BTatHome]

Wow, I have say I little pointing in preparing your temporary greens at all if your club insists on people playing wedges from them!

Your local rules seem to be a counter productive to the logical use of temporary greens, and I'd certainly be querying why they were included and hadn't been updated by now.

 

[jim8flog]

Further, two flagsticks on one hole could be very confusing.

A point I would totally agree with.

We have one flag per hole and it gets moved between the normal green and the temporary green as needed.

 

[jim8flog]

One other point about this, that it has taken years to get through to players, is that the normal green when not in play is a wrong green. I have had to stop many a player from putting off the main green back to the temp green.

 

[jim8flog]

Returning to post #6.

If I played in accordance with the card and did not class it as a wrong green would I be penalised. What I am asking do the rules on the card override the Rules of Golf? From post #5 RF implied either could be correct unless I have misinterpreted.

Local Rules including those on a card must never override a Rule of Golf. If they do it should be brought to the attention of the committee to have the LR removed.

 

[rulefan]

One other point about this, that it has taken years to get through to players, is that the normal green when not in play is a wrong green. I have had to stop many a player from putting off the main green back to the temp green.

And most of them will tell you it is OK if they using a putter

 

[DickInShorts]

I’m sure I read several years ago from a Rules Official that a winter green is a wrong green and relief MUST be taken - in exactly the same way as relief from a ‘summer’ green when winter greens are in play. it doesn’t seem to me to be anything other than common sense as well as care of the course to treat them as wrong greens.
Several of the courses up here in Scotland seem to want to regard them as GIR - with the proviso that relief must be taken from GIR

 

[jim8flog]

Several of the courses up here in Scotland seem to want to regard them as GIR - with the proviso that relief must be taken from GIR

This is now simply put as a No Play Zone (NPZ), which avoids the need for LR declaring certain GUR areas as 'Play Prohibited Area' .

So it becomes simple for green keepers

If they are happy for players to make their own decision they mark the area as GUR.

If they have an area which they do not want players from they mark it as NPZ.