And, we're off.....2016/17

[Hobbit]

Haha one instance is not really a trend is it?

They invest heavily and change managers to win stuff, but what have they won olin the past 10 years?

It's not really a blueprint for success mate is it?

I refer you back to your last but one sentence in your last post to Phil. Big picture. And the trend extends back to the invincibles. Bit by bit the number of stars in the squad have dwindled. The current squad is lightweight at best.

I like Arsenal, and have no axe to grind but it's been blatantly obvious to every man and his dog, including big Wenger supporters like Ian Wright, that change is needed.

Arsenal have dropped back into the chasing pack, and I'd put money on them struggling to make 6th next season if there's not a radical shake up. That chasing pack are nowhere near chasing a top 3, and that should be Arsenal's ambition.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

You can't keep looking at transfer windows in isolation , this is why you have a warped view on the world. You will probably find that Liverpool have spent more than Arsenal in the last 5 years as well.

Step back and have a look at the big picture. One big outlay does not make up for years of under investment.

Someone put a very detailed post going over 5 years of transfers and you dismissed that as well - it's all spin

Simple question - last year Arsenal finished 2nd , during the summer they spent a good deal amount of money on new players , they lost none of their main players - so why did they as a team go backwards ?

 

[USER1999]

The Ox is nearly out of contract too. Rumours of possible Liverpool interest. I would be sad to see him go. At 23 he still could become a very good player. Wants to play through the middle, which will never happen at Arsenal.

 

[sawtooth]

I refer you back to your last but one sentence in your last post to Phil. Big picture. And the trend extends back to the invincibles. Bit by bit the number of stars in the squad have dwindled. The current squad is lightweight at best.

I like Arsenal, and have no axe to grind but it's been blatantly obvious to every man and his dog, including big Wenger supporters like Ian Wright, that change is needed.

Arsenal have dropped back into the chasing pack, and I'd put money on them struggling to make 6th next season if there's not a radical shake up. That chasing pack are nowhere near chasing a top 3, and that should be Arsenal's ambition.

I don't think Arsenal have moved at all in 20 years. The goal posts moved when arab and russian money came in. You can't dispute that without that intervention that Arsenal would have won 4 or 5 more titles. Look at the tables if you don't believe what I say.

So it's a bit silly to say that Arsenal have gone backwards because we are still losing the major trophies to the same 3 big teams (barring the freak Leicester win).

The minute Spurs, Liverpool, Everton et al dominate major trophies on their budgets then I will put my hands up. But until then it's no shock horror to see Arsenal nestled in behind Chelsea, Utd, City every year.

Yes there will brief appearances from others from time to time but they usually fall away again whereas Arsenal have shown to be the most consistent and undisputed challengers to the big 3 for decades.

 

[Dan2501]

How have you not gone backwards when you've gone from 2nd to 5th despite spending almost £100m on players in the Summer and after avoiding losing any key squad members?

 

[Lord Tyrion]

I'm amazed at the quote relating to Arsenal challenging the "big 3". With your set up and financial muscle you should be part of any "big 3 or 4". To pretend otherwise goes against what is clear to most people. To claim Arsenal are a poor mans club just does not add up.

A good number of pages back I made a comment about Arsenal being around the top but never really threatening. In a comfort zone without pushing the boundaries. Someone else followed my comment by comparing them to Matt Kuchar. It was a great comparison. Arsenal need to get some drive and back bone into them. They should be challenging, properly challenging most years. Not just hanging around and happy picking up a tidy cheque.

 

[Papas1982]

To be fair to Wenger it wouldn't be right to start getting on his case after 1-2 seasons of either his side dropping it's level or teams like Spurs or Liverpool elevating theirs. In 20 years Wengers teams have been remarkably consistent. Infact I saw a stat the other day that showed his win to game ratio in the first 10 years is almost identical to the last 10 years despite not winning as much trophies.

If that trend continued for 3-4 seasons and especially if other teams started to come up into the top four with smaller budgets then fair enough but I don't think we will see that.

City, United and Chelsea will continue to dominate for the next 5 years punctuated by some success from Arsenal , Liverpool, Spurs and whoever. But Arsenal have been leading the chasing pack for a decade or more ( and pretty much dominated for the 10 years before that) so Wenger deserves an awful lot of credit for that.

It's been an extraordinary level of consistency with constantly changing teams and external factors to deal with.

The problem is you keep chelsea as some sort of defence mechanism.

If you accept they they are where they are now. Be that through good management. Loads wonga or just luck. They are niw where they are. Roman doesn't over pay anymore. You are more successful than they are financial in terms of revenue. So whilst it may frustrate you how they became. The myth they are continually funded by Roman is just that. A myth. They now run with transfer constraints and in the last five years have simply done better than you.

 

[Papas1982]

I don't think Arsenal have moved at all in 20 years. The goal posts moved when arab and russian money came in. You can't dispute that without that intervention that Arsenal would have won 4 or 5 more titles. Look at the tables if you don't believe what I say.

So it's a bit silly to say that Arsenal have gone backwards because we are still losing the major trophies to the same 3 big teams (barring the freak Leicester win).

The minute Spurs, Liverpool, Everton et al dominate major trophies on their budgets then I will put my hands up. But until then it's no shock horror to see Arsenal nestled in behind Chelsea, Utd, City every year.

Yes there will brief appearances from others from time to time but they usually fall away again whereas Arsenal have shown to be the most consistent and undisputed challengers to the big 3 for decades.

RUBBISH.

UTD would have likely won 10 straight. You would have had one super club as a rival and they'd of hammered you as you had no money.

as it goes. Once. One time you have finished below only the new money teams. All 9 other times you'd have lost to Spurs once, Leicester once, Liverpool once and Utd 6 times.
#blinkered

 

[sawtooth]

RUBBISH.

UTD would have likely won 10 straight. You would have had one super club as a rival and they'd of hammered you as you had no money.

as it goes. Once. One time you have finished below only the new money teams. All 9 other times you'd have lost to Spurs once, Leicester once, Liverpool once and Utd 6 times.
#blinkered

Ah so money DOES make a difference, glad to see you're grasping it at long last.

Arsenal finished above Utd a fair few times and removing the big 3 Arsenal would have won a lot more titles.

Best of the rest for a decade or more, that deserves a bit more respect than Wenger is getting,

If money is not an issue why haven't Spurs, Liverpool, Everton, and others had a sniff at the premier league in 20 years? It's become increasingly about money, the more you have the better players you can get and the better players you have the more chance of winning you have. It's really not that difficult to see.

If we all had the same budgets then Wenger should have been sacked 10 years ago but we don't and rightly stayed put.

 

[Slime]

sawtooth, you say that when Chelsea & City were taken over by sugar daddies that the goalposts moved.
Correct .......................... BUT THEY AIN'T MOVING BACK.
Arsenal, along with everyone else, just have to adapt or wave the white flag.
What are Arsenal doing?

 

[Pin-seeker]

I wonder if everyone keeps making the same points over & over again,
will Sawtooth say "you know what I agree with you all" 🤔

Will you be using the same bait next season Sawtooth ? 🎣
😂

 

[Fish]

sawtooth, you say that when Chelsea & City were taken over by sugar daddies that the goalposts moved.
Correct .......................... BUT THEY AIN'T MOVING BACK.
Arsenal, along with everyone else, just have to adapt or wave the white flag.
What are Arsenal doing?

So what's the difference between Roman with a nett worth of $7.5bn and Kroenke who's worth $7.5bn and Usmanov whose $14.5bn?

For me Roman enjoys supporting Chelsea as can be seen when he's watching, not sure you can say that about the Arsenal owners?

Roman invested in Chelsea so they could become successful and could compete to win things, which they were on the fringe of anyway. That investment and then the new finances that are won from winning titles, cups and playing CL football is then supporting the club and those players that were purchased and invested in at the beginning were sold at the right time to make excellent profits.

As I've said before, it's basic business practice, you invest in what you believe in and through its success you can then reap the financial rewards of better commercial money on a worldwide stage, better sponsorship deals, better TV money, and the list goes on........but, it's becoming obvious that Kroenke and Usmanov are happy and satisfied with just being the corner shop rather than the supermarket, the north London convenience store if you like, as such, they'll only feature when the supermarkets are closed.

I think and honestly believe that the frustrations of Arsenals lack of positive spending and building around marquee players that they already have has filtered down onto the pitch, we've all seen Sanchez's body language but I think the problems are more deep routed, and if they are, I can see the likes of Ox leaving if they think it's going to be the same old same old for another 2 groundhog years.

Young aspiring players like him want to compete and win things, and if he goes no doubt he'll be accused of moving for money only, which I don't think he would, but he'd obviously get a better package than what he's on now with a move, that's normal.

I think we've seen many players leave Arsenal over the years that would have stayed if the club had invested and built around them, most if not all have moved on to also win things that they wouldn't have done by staying.

Wenger has exceeded his sell by date, he can't change, it's not his faulty he's the way he is, but it's now the boards fault for re-employing him for another 2 years IMO.

Other clubs and teams in the pack show far more hunger and don't have the billionaires Arsenal do sitting in the wings, if and when they ever show up that is, so like others have said, Arsenal have and have had the finances for the last couple of seasons and more, but when they have spent, they have spent poorly.

And all this guff about players getting used to the PL is tosh, it's a football match ffs and their professional football players, it's simply faster and more physical at times, that's all. There's settling into a side and getting used to new teammates and different formations, but the generic term is utter guff IMO.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

Actually, if he is happy with his team then that is all that matters. The rest of us may think they under achieve but Arsenal are not our team so it ultimately does not affect us, other than giving our own teams more chance to do well. Long may Arsene carry on :thup:

 

[Pin-seeker]

Actually, if he is happy with his team then that is all that matters. The rest of us may think they under achieve but Arsenal are not our team so it ultimately does not affect us, other than giving our own teams more chance to do well. Long may Arsene carry on :thup:

Correct,if he's happy then good for him.

 

[Papas1982]

Ah so money DOES make a difference, glad to see you're grasping it at long last.

Arsenal finished above Utd a fair few times and removing the big 3 Arsenal would have won a lot more titles.

Best of the rest for a decade or more, that deserves a bit more respect than Wenger is getting,

If money is not an issue why haven't Spurs, Liverpool, Everton, and others had a sniff at the premier league in 20 years? It's become increasingly about money, the more you have the better players you can get and the better players you have the more chance of winning you have. It's really not that difficult to see.

If we all had the same budgets then Wenger should have been sacked 10 years ago but we don't and rightly stayed put.

the seasons you finished above Utd you also post out to Liverpool Spurs and Leicester on 3 occasions. Take city and Chelsea out and you would have won once. So money has cost you one title.

Thats not a fair few times at all.

You cant remove Utd from the list. They if anything have at times been hamstrung by their owners. They have money based on their success. Not through taxation of their loyal support or manipulation of said fans for being a London club.

 

[Papas1982]

So what's the difference between Roman with a nett worth of $7.5bn and Kroenke who's worth $7.5bn and Usmanov whose $14.5bn?

For me Roman enjoys supporting Chelsea as can be seen when he's watching, not sure you can say that about the Arsenal owners?

Roman invested in Chelsea so they could become successful and could compete to win things, which they were on the fringe of anyway. That investment and then the new finances that are won from winning titles, cups and playing CL football is then supporting the club and those players that were purchased and invested in at the beginning were sold at the right time to make excellent profits.

As I've said before, it's basic business practice, you invest in what you believe in and through its success you can then reap the financial rewards of better commercial money on a worldwide stage, better sponsorship deals, better TV money, and the list goes on........but, it's becoming obvious that Kroenke and Usmanov are happy and satisfied with just being the corner shop rather than the supermarket, the north London convenience store if you like, as such, they'll only feature when the supermarkets are closed.

I think and honestly believe that the frustrations of Arsenals lack of positive spending and building around marquee players that they already have has filtered down onto the pitch, we've all seen Sanchez's body language but I think the problems are more deep routed, and if they are, I can see the likes of Ox leaving if they think it's going to be the same old same old for another 2 groundhog years.

Young aspiring players like him want to compete and win things, and if he goes no doubt he'll be accused of moving for money only, which I don't think he would, but he'd obviously get a better package than what he's on now with a move, that's normal.

I think we've seen many players leave Arsenal over the years that would have stayed if the club had invested and built around them, most if not all have moved on to also win things that they wouldn't have done by staying.

Wenger has exceeded his sell by date, he can't change, it's not his faulty he's the way he is, but it's now the boards fault for re-employing him for another 2 years IMO.

Other clubs and teams in the pack show far more hunger and don't have the billionaires Arsenal do sitting in the wings, if and when they ever show up that is, so like others have said, Arsenal have and have had the finances for the last couple of seasons and more, but when they have spent, they have spent poorly.

And all this guff about players getting used to the PL is tosh, it's a football match ffs and their professional football players, it's simply faster and more physical at times, that's all. There's settling into a side and getting used to new teammates and different formations, but the generic term is utter guff IMO.

the reason Chelseas financial benifactor is viewed differently Robin is because he's a benefactor. Your records show an outstanding loan to him close to £1b last I heard.

the others are owners. If a new owner comes in now and did the same as Roman they would be hit my penalties for ffp rules.

I dont think anything thing was wrong with what Roman did. Without him you wouldn't be where you are. You may well have been improving in the league. But you also played on a beach agaisnt charlton so poor were you finances.

But now, you're settled and if people don't accept it. Or clubs at least, then they are destined to falls short.

 

[sawtooth]

the reason Chelseas financial benifactor is viewed differently Robin is because he's a benefactor. Your records show an outstanding loan to him close to £1b last I heard.

the others are owners. If a new owner comes in now and did the same as Roman they would be hit my penalties for ffp rules.

I dont think anything thing was wrong with what Roman did. Without him you wouldn't be where you are. You may well have been improving in the league. But you also played on a beach agaisnt charlton so poor were you finances.

But now, you're settled and if people don't accept it. Or clubs at least, then they are destined to falls short.

I accept it, I just don't like it being rammed down my throat nor do I like to see Wenger getting a bashing when really all of that is out of his control.

Arsenal will do their best to close the gap but will spend within their means (club generated revenues) as long as Wenger is there. It's one of his values not to go spending the owners Billions and I for one prefer it that way.

Let's drop it now until the next time Wenger gets harshly criticised.

 

[One Planer]

I accept it, I just don't like it being rammed down my throat nor do I like to see Wenger getting a bashing when really all of that is out of his control.

Arsenal will do their best to close the gap but will spend within their means (club generated revenues) as long as Wenger is there. It's one of his values not to go spending the owners Billions and I for one prefer it that way.

Let's drop it now until the next time Wenger gets harshly criticised.

In 2 years or so, when Wenger retires, what will your opinion be if the chosen replacement has a bigger shopping list than when Mourinho first came to Chelsea?

Lets say you win the league because if it.

Would your views change or would you be dead against the new manager having purchased the league ?

 

[sawtooth]

In 2 years or so, when Wenger retires, what will your opinion be if the chosen replacement has a bigger shopping list than when Mourinho first came to Chelsea?

Lets say you win the league because if it.

Would your views change or would you be dead against the new manager having purchased the league ?

Dead against it. Wenger won't do it and I'm not sure the next managers will do it either.
I just don't think it will ever be the Arsenal way but I might be wrong.

 

[One Planer]

Dead against it. Wenger won't do it and I'm not sure the next managers will do it either.
I just don't think it will ever be the Arsenal way but I might be wrong.

So you would settle for mediocrity over success?