Afghanistan - what a mess

[birdieman]

Reading today that yet another 2 army boys were killed in Afghanistan yesterday.

The MoD spokesperson said - "We know that their deaths were not in vain"

I am no military expert but as far as I can tell we are out of our depth and badly under-resourced over there, it seems to me their deaths probably will be in vain. We don't have the money to pay for this conflict.

No-one I know ever talks about the 'war' as it's not in our daily thoughts probably because most of us don't feel it is justified and don't think it is right occupying a foreign land so far from home. Politicians took knee-jerk bad decisions on the back of 9/11 and now can't be seen to admit their errors and get out of there. Now our good brave servicemen and women are paying the ultimate price. Is it worth it?

Do we have to stay forever more even if we 'win' (whatever that means) because as soon as we leave Afghans will revert to type and go back to how they were before with Taleban or equivalent in power. They have had western style democratic rule before but it never lasts.

I don't undertand the strategic reasons for being there. If we burn their poppy fields so what? As soon as we leave they'll grow them again. We went in there on the coat-tails of the Yanks to look for Bin Laden many years ago and now where are we? - bogged down in a conflict we can never win.

The news reports that the British have taken some town north of wherever but all the Taleban had left before we arrived, they haven't been beaten, just moved and holed up somewhere else. How is that winning progress?

No-one has ever won a war in Afghanistan - the terrain is too hostile and the inhabitabts too tough. Politicians tell us that Afghanistan is breeding ground for terrorists but terrorists will train somewhere else if they can't use Afghanistan. Who would believe anything a politician tells us anyway.

Shouldn't we just get out and deal with insurgent training camps by spy satellites and remote means, sending in the odd guided missile from afar?

We can't install our democracy on this country. Culturally we are poles apart. The Afghans have to change things for themselves if they even want change, no matter how brutal that may be.

If we are there why aren't we in Zimbabwe and Burma and all the other troubled areas of the world?

I supported our efforts in Falklands, Balkans etc but I'm struggling to see any good reason to be in Afghanistan. It seems like locals and recruits from across the middle east can't wait to get involved in fighting western armies even though we are supposed to be ultimately helping them.

Can someone explain what the goals are in this operation. I think half the problem is no-one has ever publically said 'these are our objectives, this is how much it will cost' etc. We just steamed in there with no plan of how to get out again.

If we weren't there are we really more at risk from terrorism back here in the UK or are we actually making things worse for ourselves by being seen as illegal invaders and lap dogs to the US?

Or are we standing up for what's right, doing the right thing, helping the downtrodden, making a stand etc.

What do you think? I don't understand it all.

What should we do?

 

[KeefG]

Post of the month!

To be honest, I have absolutely no answers to your question as I feel & think the same way that you do. I really see no need for us being there, it is just an expensive conflict for which there seems to be no means to an end, and I disagree with said MoD spokesman, our boys are dying in vain

As you have already mentioned, we could nuke Afghanistan and make it into a great big car park, but the insurgents will all congregate elsewhere and these training camps will appear in other countries such as Syria & Northern Pakistan, what then? Do we wade into these countries and start tearing them up too with our already stretched to breaking point military?

Obviously we cant just up sticks & leave now, but I agree, somebody from the MoD needs to come out and say "this is what we intend to do, these are our goals and once achieved we're out of there".....trouble is, I cant see it happening anytime soon and the death toll of our fine servicemen & women is only going to get higher & higher.

 

[welshjim22]

The problem is Brits don't want to get involved, we are far too soft. Doesn't mean someone shouldn't. Thousands of Afghans come to the UK for Asylum why shouldn't we do something to help them not live in fear in there own country. You may ask why us but if we all say someone else should but not us nothing gets done.

 

[USER1999]

We get thousands of Somalian and Zimbabwean refugees too, but we haven't invaded their country.

We are in Afganistan to help the US to secure a site for an oil pipeline. It is basically about money. The terrorism thing is a convenient excuse. The Pakistanis have already admitted they trained terrorists, but we haven't invaded them either. The yanks want to build an oil pipeline, and the Taliban didn't want it. Ergo, what you need is a pro western government installed who will take the asking price.

As for the way out? Who knows. The only way is to train enough government forces who can do the fighting themselves. There always has been fighting here, and there always will.

The guys I feel sorry for are our forces who are doing a thankless task, for rubbish pay, in a poorly equiped army, being sold down the river in a leaky boat by our slimey politians.

 

[3offTheTee]

The problem is Brits don't want to get involved, we are far too soft. Doesn't mean someone shouldn't. Thousands of Afghans come to the UK for Asylum why shouldn't we do something to help them not live in fear in there own country. You may ask why us but if we all say someone else should but not us nothing gets done.

quote]

Too soft I think otherwise. Your post is one of the most absurd I have ever read on here on anywhere else. Why shouldThe Uk be the dumping ground for all anad sundry because of our system of takers ?

Agree entirely with the sentiments of birdieman and perhaps you should sign up to go over there.

 

[Macster]

I agree entirely, and am convinced its merely about control & Oil ultimately.

Impossible to win a war against an enemy you cant see, and has an endless supply of recruits due to the 'collateral damage' inflicted on the innocents around.

I feel for the Troops who arent allowed an opinion, shockingly equipped and paid, and who risk death everyday for some goal that nobody knows ?

 

[Andy]

We pull out now, loose face and save as many of our guys and girls lives as we can.

Once the pullout is complete, we launch every nuke we have at Afghanistan and hey presto, problem solved.

We also use this method to deal with Iran, Iraq or any other idiot in future and our soldiers defend our front line, ie in this country.

Andy

 

[HTL]

The guys I feel sorry for are our forces who are doing a thankless task, for rubbish pay, in a poorly equipped army, being sold down the river in a leaky boat by our slimy politicians.

Didn't want to get involved with this as it makes my blood boil. However, I totally agree with this. Our troops are the best in the world and they are treated like crap, they do a job none of us sitting behind our keyboards would do for well below what they deserve pay, with dog turd equipment. The Help For Heroes Rugby fund raiser is still one of the proudest achievements of my life and I cant wait to get involved next year.

 

[viscount17]

Will staying in solve the problem of extremists that hate the west - no, every action that you take and even just being there provides them with the excuses they want and does the recruitment job for them

will pulling out - no, the hatred is too long standing and too deep

can the politicians pull us out - not the current lot. they're too concerned with self image and except for a very tiny minority have no personal commitment, no family involvement. for the most part family members don't get sent (Harry, for all that he can be a real pillock, at least forced the issue, though he then became a liability)

The problem with the equipment is that as with every war that we fight, the troops are equipped and trained for the last one. (Unfortunately this is a lesson that is never learned, we were sending cavalry units against machine guns in WW1.) We started the 21st century geared up and equipped to fight Russians in Northern Europe; big, visible, high-tech targets. Now it's like the US fighting the Indians, and they really only won through biological warfare (smallpox, flu etc) and genocide.

It is changing, but the defence budget has been savaged, with much already committed long term and a defence industry also geared up for the wrong wars, frequently undermined by the UK press and run down, also as a result of defence cuts.

It is changing, whether it's quick enough only time will tell.
As a start, perhaps the MPs could forgo their expenses in order to equip the troops with enough PPE (personal protective equipment).

 

[Yerman]

Every time you kill a Taleban fighter, you kill an Aghan, son,brother,father - how can that win hearts and minds, so you either exterminate the lot or get out, bloody politicians.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

With the Windsor barracks near the club we naturally have a couple of serving soldiers who've been out there as well as a couple who drink in the village pub. The truth behind the media myth of an army teaching the internal police and military how to integrate and protect communities against the Taliban is a fabrication.

Our troops are seriously under supplied with old equipment not designed for such temperature extremes and the harsh terrain. The local militia and police are two faced and will willingly serve with the UK and US forces and then take back handers to protect "known faces".

It is a war we cannot win and shouldn't be involved. I've seen one guy in the local pub injured (thankfully not seriously) and have heard several stories of loss of life. The lady that works with HID is an army wife and her husband works in rehabilitation and is dealing with the casualties coming home knowing he's going out on a tour of duty in the new year. He's helping one guy who has lost both legs and an arm and is finding it terribly difficult to support this guy despite his military and rehabilitation background. Where is the sense in a life not lost but irretriveably destroyed.

The government won't pull out and face the humiliation given the billions invested in the long term picture and the possible rewards if the US every get the oil access this is clearly about.

 

[Farneyman]

Got this in an email not sure if its true......

'WE WOULD RATHER DO BUSINESS WITH 1000 ALQAEDA TERRORISTS THAN WITH ONE SINGLE BRITISH SOLDIER!'

This sign was prominently displayed in the window of a business in

CAMPBELTOWN, SCOTLAND..

You are probably outraged at the thought of such an inflammatory statement..

However, we are a society which holds Freedom of Speech as perhaps our greatest liberty..

After all, it is ONLY A SIGN. You may say.

'What kind of business would dare to post such a sign?'

Answer:









A FUNERAL PARLOUR.

(WHO SAID MORTICIANS HAD NO SENSE OF HUMOUR?)

YOU GOT TO LOVE IT!!!

= God Bless Scotland =

 

[backwoodsman]

We pull out now, loose face and save as many of our guys and girls lives as we can.

Once the pullout is complete, we launch every nuke we have at Afghanistan and hey presto, problem solved.

We also use this method to deal with Iran, Iraq or any other idiot in future and our soldiers defend our front line, ie in this country.

Andy

What a brilliant, well thought out post..... not.

Damned if I do know what the answer is - but that aint it.

But it's sobering to recall that the Ruskies threw a much greater number of men and equipment at them, and were much less considerate of the welfare of their own troops (ie threw away lives) and still came away without any positive result

 

[krokodil]

We pull out now, loose face and save as many of our guys and girls lives as we can.

Once the pullout is complete, we launch every nuke we have at Afghanistan and hey presto, problem solved.

We also use this method to deal with Iran, Iraq or any other idiot in future and our soldiers defend our front line, ie in this country.

Andy

that's a joke, right?

 

[Andy]

No croc, blow every one of them up. Deadly serious.

Andy

 

[Parmo]

Every time you kill a Taleban fighter, you kill an Aghan, son,brother,father - how can that win hearts and minds, so you either exterminate the lot or get out, bloody politicians.

Because there are three levels of Teliban: -

1) Hard core Islamic fascists who don't go anywhere without large protection
2) Insurgents
3) Ten dollar men who when out of the poppy season sign up for the Teliban for the cash.

The only reason the general public are outranged is because the Brits started operation panthers claw with the yanks. The reason is to shift the Teliban faster and to destroy their supply links and insurgent highways, which is what the afgan people want. The risks in more operations are always the same in casualties, the risk is worth it due to the dragging on with platoon houses and patrolling, this also deters the ten dollar teliban.

Though casualties are never a good thing, soldiers wouldnt want to run out of Afgan with our tails between are legs.