5th Division for English Football

[Doon frae Troon]

MONEY....... for whom?

Not the English clubs who would have to agree to the unwelcome guests.

If Celtic or Rangers need more money it is up to them and Scottish football to generate it, not the responsibility of English football. I speak as a long suffering supporter of an English Championship club and I have yet to meet anyone in England who has any interest in the Old Firm clubs joining the league.

Division 5 TV deal with the Old Firm would be starters.

BTW 15,000 watched Hibs in the Scottish Championship last weekend.
What is Bournemouth's ground capacity again?

 

[Tashyboy]

So we could have a fifth division, what's the National league called, it is the fifth division. Why should any team be placed straight into the fifth league. FC United of Manchester have had to go through all of the divisions to get to where they are.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

Division 5 TV deal with the Old Firm would be starters.

BTW 15,000 watched Hibs in the Scottish Championship last weekend.
What is Bournemouth's ground capacity again?

The television deal would be for all the football league divisions not just one Divsion and having Celtic and Rangers in the football wouldn't make a blind difference to the telly deal they currently have

And what does it the amount of fans who watched Hibs have to do with anything ?

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Division 5 TV deal with the Old Firm would be starters.

BTW 15,000 watched Hibs in the Scottish Championship last weekend.
What is Bournemouth's ground capacity again?

If there was any TV interest in the Old Firm down south (other than exiled Scots) we will soon discover as I understand the forthcoming match is being televised by Sky at the same time as the Manchester derby.

As for crowds did you see what Newcastle's attendance was last Saturday, in the English Championship.

Most English football fans have little or no interest in the Scottish clubs unless they have Scots blood.

 

[Grogger]

Wrexham are in the National League which is part of the "pyramid", i.e. it is effectively in Division 5.

I didnt dispute that they're not part of the pyramid. I said they're not a league side. They're non league. No such thing as division 5.

Won't matter anyway. There'll be no room for the old firm once the Prem 'B' teams worm their way into the football league.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

I didnt dispute that they're not part of the pyramid. I said they're not a league side. They're non league. No such thing as division 5.

That is what is meant by "effectively". Currently two clubs are promoted each year from the National League to League 2 (the fourth division) so yes the National League is effectively the fifth division.

 

[HomerJSimpson]

Really can't see this happening, certainly with the introduction of the old firm. Where does that leave the SPL for starters. Really can't see this getting any sort of go ahead

 

[Doon frae Troon]

If there was any TV interest in the Old Firm down south (other than exiled Scots) we will soon discover as I understand the forthcoming match is being televised by Sky at the same time as the Manchester derby.

As for crowds did you see what Newcastle's attendance was last Saturday, in the English Championship.

Most English football fans have little or no interest in the Scottish clubs unless they have Scots blood.

TV football viewing is worldwide, not just in 'down south land'.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

TV football viewing is worldwide, not just in 'down south land'.

I'm not sure that "worldwide" the Football league is a big seller hence the telly contracts aren't big worldwide , same with the Scottish League - it's the lack of worldwide stars playing that reduces the appeal.

Unless you believe there to be a worldwide appeal ?

 

[Doon frae Troon]

I'm not sure that "worldwide" the Football league is a big seller hence the telly contracts aren't big worldwide , same with the Scottish League - it's the lack of worldwide stars playing that reduces the appeal.

Unless you believe there to be a worldwide appeal ?

I think Old Firm matches will still attract an audience in countries with large Scottish immigrant groups. Austrailia/SA/NZ/USA/Canada.
Worldwide it is probably still ranked highly as one of the worlds top 'local derby's'.
Can't see many wanting to watch Rangers v Frimley Green but Rangers still enjoyed decent support, live and TV, when they spent four years in the lower Scottish divisions.
TV coverage of the Scottish Championship when Rangers and Hearts were playing was a boost to the other teams. Before that we hardly got a glimpse of that League on telly.

 

[Deleted member 15344]

I think Old Firm matches will still attract an audience in countries with large Scottish immigrant groups. Austrailia/SA/NZ/USA/Canada.
Worldwide it is probably still ranked highly as one of the worlds top 'local derby's'.
Can't see many wanting to watch Rangers v Frimley Green but Rangers still enjoyed decent support, live and TV, when they spent four years in the lower Scottish divisions.
TV coverage of the Scottish Championship when Rangers and Hearts were playing was a boost to the other teams. Before that we hardly got a glimpse of that League on telly.

But it's pennies compared to the sort of telly deals given to the top leagues

Rangers and Celtic being in the FL wouldn't increase any telly deal given

 

[virtuocity]

Where does that leave the SPL for starters.

This seems to be common amongst southerners- but at least you have minimal knowledge of the Scottish game. Sadly, this is the same tripe churned out by the Scottish tabloids any time there is even a glimpse of a threat towards the domination of the Old Firm teams. When Rangers were liquidated, a famous phrase, 'Armageddon' was peddled about by those who ran the Scottish game. Top league clubs, who were being denied the charity of Rangers fans' admission money would follow the mighty Gers into oblivion. The bosses were, and remain completely steadfast in marketing the Scottish game based on the Old Firm brand. It's completely infuriating.

Watch a League One match, followed by an Scottish Premiership match. The quality is exactly the same, yet teams from the former league can easily snap up the best young talent from the latter (Old Firm aside).

Instead of armageddon, season ticket sales amongst 'diddy' teams generally went up. Rangers weren't missed. Without them, and their East End counterparts, the Scottish game would both survive and thrive.

However, this is on the proviso that the Fatcats sitting in Hamden begin to believe in the notion that Scottish football, outside of the Old Firm, is actually good entertainment- or certainly as good as English League 1- and market it accordingly. Alas, it is much more likely that they will be devoting the majority of their next meeting pulling together a contingency in case it becomes possible for the Old Firm to leave for pastures new.

 

[User62651]

For me it's either all Scottish teams or no Scottish teams if a UK league of sorts evolves, allowing only 2 to leave because they have a bigger fanbase and more money isn't a good enough justifcation. For me as an Aberdeen 'fan' losing the Old Firm from the league is not good despite the religious intolerance that blights those clubs (most of them probably never been near a church), the standards would fall even further, Aberdeen and Hearts would become the new dominant pair instead of OF. We're soon building a new out of town stadium at Aberdeen, need to fill it sometimes!
I would be perfectly happy for a club like Aberdeen to play League One or possibly even Championship at a UK level, they have the same kind of support and resources as clubs like Ipswich, Norwich, Burnley, Bournemouth etc etc.
You can't stop change of course.

 

[Kellfire]

This seems to be common amongst southerners- but at least you have minimal knowledge of the Scottish game. Sadly, this is the same tripe churned out by the Scottish tabloids any time there is even a glimpse of a threat towards the domination of the Old Firm teams. When Rangers were liquidated, a famous phrase, 'Armageddon' was peddled about by those who ran the Scottish game. Top league clubs, who were being denied the charity of Rangers fans' admission money would follow the mighty Gers into oblivion. The bosses were, and remain completely steadfast in marketing the Scottish game based on the Old Firm brand. It's completely infuriating.

Watch a League One match, followed by an Scottish Premiership match. The quality is exactly the same, yet teams from the former league can easily snap up the best young talent from the latter (Old Firm aside).

Instead of armageddon, season ticket sales amongst 'diddy' teams generally went up. Rangers weren't missed. Without them, and their East End counterparts, the Scottish game would both survive and thrive.

However, this is on the proviso that the Fatcats sitting in Hamden begin to believe in the notion that Scottish football, outside of the Old Firm, is actually good entertainment- or certainly as good as English League 1- and market it accordingly. Alas, it is much more likely that they will be devoting the majority of their next meeting pulling together a contingency in case it becomes possible for the Old Firm to leave for pastures new.

The quality dropped as soon as Rangers were no more; Celtic's decline has shown that. Don't confuse an increase in how competitive the league is (undoubtedly higher) with an increase in overall quality.

 

[Doon frae Troon]

But it's pennies compared to the sort of telly deals given to the top leagues

Rangers and Celtic being in the FL wouldn't increase any telly deal given

Sorry if I did not explain that too well.......Rangers and Celtic in an English 5th [and even 4th and 3rd division] would certainly bring money, TV, publicity and competition to the table.
Portsmouth home game v Celtic would certainly fill the ground and bring a lot more income to the club.

 

[Lord Tyrion]

It all brings huge complications and baggage and that, in the view of most Chairmen will outweight the limited financial benefits. Rangers for example have a record of causing carnage on their travels through England. Clubs, stadiums and towns don't need that. Put simply, Rangers and Celtic need the English leagues far more than the English leagues need them. It wont happen.

In terms of gates, you can only sell out the away section and the size of that is always limited. The financial bonus to clubs will not be that huge. Believing that Portsmouth or other fans will be queuing up to see Rangers or Celtic play is not realistic.

 

[virtuocity]

The quality dropped as soon as Rangers were no more; Celtic's decline has shown that. Don't confuse an increase in how competitive the league is (undoubtedly higher) with an increase in overall quality.

OK, Celtic's quality dropped, because they had no need to spend huge to win the league.

What other team's quality dropped?

 

[Kellfire]

OK, Celtic's quality dropped, because they had no need to spend huge to win the league.

What other team's quality dropped?

Difficult to judge when the bench market dropped so markedly. Rangers this year will help us determine that - if they do well over the course of the season, we'll soon know without doubt that the SPL is at a low.

 

[virtuocity]

Difficult to judge when the bench market dropped so markedly. Rangers this year will help us determine that - if they do well over the course of the season, we'll soon know without doubt that the SPL is at a low.

How do you quantify 'quality'?

As for your second point, are you discarding Rangers' financial superiority? Bear in mind that Joey Barton's weekly wage was more than Kilmarnock's starting line up's wages combined.

 

[Deleted member 18588]

Sorry if I did not explain that too well.......Rangers and Celtic in an English 5th [and even 4th and 3rd division] would certainly bring money, TV, publicity and competition to the table.
Portsmouth home game v Celtic would certainly fill the ground and bring a lot more income to the club.

Why?

The vast majority of the potential TV audience care no more for Rangers or Celtic than they do for, say, Notts County or Millwall so Sky or any other broadcaster are not going to throw money at the product.

As for the effect on gates it would be of negligible benefit. Many of the grounds in Leagues 1 and 2 are relatively small and most of the clubs in the Championship would need more than a couple of above average attendances if they are to strengthen their finances. Most of them rely upon the support of wealthy (or stupid) owners.

BTW Portsmouth pretty well fill their ground each home game.