1 in 12 Adults have never worked.

[Bunkermagnet]

You’re coming across as incredibly elitist and a snob.

It should allow for a reasonable quality of life that doesn’t cause a massive gap between the rest of society. It should allow people to have things like a smartphone, internet access, good food quality and the ability to socialise.

Society has changed and without these things that are now basically a bare minimum to engage and enjoy life, the problem of disenfranchisement from society will only perpetuate. That’s brings its own issues - crime, family breakdowns, mental health and other health issues.

A snob? I'm working class, grew up the eldest of 3 boys with a mum that stayed home to look after us and a dad that worked for not a lot on the maintenance side of Chatham Dockyard. He was also a union rep.Money was tight.
We had no car, my parents didnt smoke, took 1 weeks holiday a year at Butlins, wore hand-me-downs, ate everything that was put on our plate and had instilled in us that if you didnt work hard at school and in life you didn't get far or went without.
Minimum wage and the benfit system are about supporting people and making sure they can have a roof over their heads, and eat. It's not about giving them the luxuries of life they think they deserve when others who might work/work harder and longer go without to get by. Benefits are not an entitlement, and minimum wage is there to make sure those who do at least try to work get a minimum amount.
If I wanted socialisim of the extreme, I would emmigrate to North Korea.

And elements of the Labour party wonder why they did so badly in the last GE.

 

[pendodave]

What would you consider 'enough' to be able to have a smartphone, internet access, good food quality and the ability to socialise.?

If someone does a week's honest toil, that seems reasonable enough.

 

[Papas1982]

Close tax loopholes. Tax the rich more. Try to close the gap between the haves and the have nots.

Fully agree re loopholes. Not so much the rest.

A snob? I'm working class, grew up the eldest of 3 boys with a mum that stayed home to look after us and a dad that worked for not a lot on the maintenance side of Chatham Dockyard. He was also a union rep.Money was tight.
We had no car, my parents didnt smoke, took 1 weeks holiday a year at Butlins, wore hand-me-downs, ate everything that was put on our plate and had instilled in us that if you didnt work hard at school and in life you didn't get far or went without.
Minimum wage and the benfit system are about supporting people and making sure they can have a roof over their heads, and eat. It's not about giving them the luxuries of life they think they deserve when others who might work/work harder and longer go without to get by. Benefits are not an entitlement, and minimum wage is there to make sure those who do at least try to work get a minimum amount.
If I wanted socialisim of the extreme, I would emmigrate to North Korea.

And elements of the Labour party wonder why they did so badly in the last GE.

Spot on.

People earn luxuries. Not deserve them. If a kid says “I want, I want” all the time and gets it. They’re considered spoilt. Why then must we suddenly give adults everything for nothing?

 

[Hacker Khan]

Big changes are already underway in the work place that will mean the traditional concept of there being enough 'well paid' work for everyone will go. The gig economy, easy movement of capital and resources plus ever increasing automation means economies like ours will need to rethink how we generate enough wealth for the majority of society to have a decent standard of living.

Labour and indeed other nations such as Finland are beginning to address this a bit with concepts like universal basic income. Trouble is that it gets badly reported and sold with headlines like 'Labour promises 4 day weeks'. Plus as can be seen on this thread, the concept of people getting money for anything other than what is perceived as a 'hard days work', is a hard sell.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

National minimum for over 25. Not living wage. £8.52 an hour. 18k a year.

If they’re a parent etc or have legit reasons for not working I’m not suggesting they don’t deserve help. But if they’re simply full time on social, benefits imo shouldn’t surpass that.

Basic benefit for over 25 is £73.10 per week, no where near the National Minimum wage.

 

[Papas1982]

Basic benefit for over 25 is £73.10 per week, no where near the National Minimum wage.

Yes the basic benefit. Like I've said. I've no issue with legit claims. But those miking the system, having rent paid etc. Aren't doing it for £73 a week.

 

[Deleted member 16999]

Yes the basic benefit. Like I've said. I've no issue with legit claims. But those miking the system, having rent paid etc. Aren't doing it for £73 a week.

I’m out mate, somebody needing housed isn’t milking the system, there are good and bad in all walks of life and the poorest are suffering the most, otherwise we wouldn’t have child poverty, foodbanks and homelessness on the rise.
Not everyone on benefits is a scrounger as some would have you believe.

 

[Kellfire]

What would you consider 'enough' to be able to have a smartphone, internet access, good food quality and the ability to socialise.?

Again - I don’t know but it currently isn’t enough. Please stop trying to trap me in semantics as if they lessen my overall point.

 

[bobmac]

Again - I don’t know but it currently isn’t enough. Please stop trying to trap me in semantics as if they lessen my overall point.

I'm not trying to trap you at all.
You complain it's not enough but when pressed, you don't know how much is enough or how it should be paid for.

 

[SatchFan]

I don't have a smartphone. Can I claim benefits?

 

[Kellfire]

I'm not trying to trap you at all.
You complain it's not enough but when pressed, you don't know how much is enough or how it should be paid for.

You know that’s not a reasonable argument. If we only ever questioned government policy when we ourselves knew the exact way to rectify the situation, we wouldn’t really need a government. Their job is to gain the knowledge and expertise to benefit society.

I don’t know exactly how golf clubs are designed and manufactured but I know I need them to play golf.

 

[Papas1982]

I’m out mate, somebody needing housed isn’t milking the system, there are good and bad in all walks of life and the poorest are suffering the most, otherwise we wouldn’t have child poverty, foodbanks and homelessness on the rise.
Not everyone on benefits is a scrounger as some would have you believe.

To be clear. I didn’t say claiming housing meant they were milking the system.

I simply meant that those that are, aren’t claiming just £71. I’ve grown up knowing enough that milk it. I also realise that they cost us less than tax dodgers. But I’ve known more that milk the system than avoid tax. Hence they annoy me more.

 

[bobmac]

You know that’s not a reasonable argument.

I'm not making an argument.
You said the minimum wage was not enough and I asked you how much you thought was enough just to see if we were in agreement.
Your 'reasonable' arguement is I don't know how much it should be or how it would be paid for.

 

[Ye Olde Boomer]

I'm not an economist. I had some economics classes in school, but I was mostly reading the racing forms and doing my handicapping during those classes.
I'm not even that much of an accountant. I was the union steward for the financial department, first and foremost, and today, I pay some young Greek lady to do my taxes.

My general view, though, is that retail prices could stand to get higher in America if that would result in people receiving a livable wage. Many of us have too much stuff--not only more than what we need but even more than we really want--and some people have next to nothing.

I only wish that America were as socially progressive as your country.

 

[SocketRocket]

The Minimum Wage is now called the Living Wage and is set to increase by three times the rate of inflation this April.

 

[hovis]

I'm not saying that everyone can work but when I see my local tescos is employing a girl with serious autism and member of our fire service (non operational) had his legs and two fingers blown off in Afghanistan then you better have a good excuse. my brother in law "can't" work because of his anxiety. funny how his anxiety goes away on giro day

 

[Deleted member 21784]

The Minimum Wage is now called the Living Wage and is set to increase by three times the rate of inflation this April.

have you fact checked this? because its slightly incorrect

the minimum wage is called the national minimum wage

the national living wage applies to those over 25 only

and neither are the LIVING wage which is set by a indipendent body with 2 rates one for national one for london

https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/national-minimum-wage

What’s the difference between the National Living Wage and the Living Wage?
The National Living Wage:

• is the highest rate of the National Minimum wage (currently £8.21 an hour)
• is set by government
• must be paid to all workers over 25

The Living Wage:

• is set by the Living Wage Foundation
• applies to all worker over 18
• is voluntary – employers can choose whether to pay it
• has two rates – a UK rate (£9.00 an hour), and a London rate (£10.55 an hour)

 

[Hobbit]

The minimum wage should allow people to live in relative comfort. It should not condemn them to never owning property, sharing with others and having to live off low quality food and sacrifice happiness for existence. If that’s all it does, society is failing then.

Totally agree but we don't live in anything like an ideal world. And, in reality, society isn't failing. The thing that gets in the way is world economics.

Starting from the ground up, if you pay the cleaner £xx more an hour you'll have to up the wage of the technician. And if you up the wage of the technician, you'll need to up the wage of the supervisor. And if you up the wage of the technician you'll need to up the wage of the secretary, and that of her supervisor. Then there's the manager's wages. And so on and so on up it goes. End result being that the company stops being competitive in the global market and folds.

So how do you raise the standard of living of the lower paid if you can't raise the minimum wage high enough, AND you aren't allowed to subsidise the company due to EU/competition rules? You pay benefits. Its subsidy by the back door. Its needs benefits and tax breaks to be high enough and widespread enough to raise the standard of living but you're still hamstrung by the same equation of how far up the work/wage level do you go up with the benefits/subsidies?

That's a very short version. Pretty sure you can broaden that out.

 

[RulesGuy]

My first time here and I am really impressed by the high level of contributions (the proponents of eugenics excepted). We can all cite anecdotes – I have played golf with a few people and discovered over a pint in the clubhouse they were unpleasant, vile racists. Doesn't get us very far does it?

I have worked in this field for over 25 years and seen literally thousands of people in their homes. To suggest that people en masse are milking the system and living the high life is incorrect. Yes there will be cases like the ex lady captain fraudulently claiming disability benefits but these are outweighed many fold by those not claiming benefits they are entitled to.

Yes there are and always have been criminal families and families where nobody in generations have worked. Are we suggesting children should suffer as a result?.

75% of those with long term mental health problems do not work.

A single mother with 3 children is entitled to £179.00 income based benefits per week. This amount has to cover food, water, electricity, gas, phone, TV licence, internet, clothes, insurance, council tax, transport, laundry etc etc.

55% of the Department of Work & Pension's budget goes on pensions

A couple earning £100k can claim £2.5k child benefit

Internet connection is obligatory for school homework

I for one do not want to live in a society where I have to step between homeless people on the streets of our great towns and cities. I don't want my fellow citizens to suffer the humiliation of proving their entitlement to receive charity from a food bank. I don't want to see a disheveled underclass whilst I am out shopping. We are a very wealthy country and I suppose it comes down to our values as to how this wealth should be distributed.

 

[SocketRocket]

My first time here and I am really impressed by the high level of contributions (the proponents of eugenics excepted). We can all cite anecdotes – I have played golf with a few people and discovered over a pint in the clubhouse they were unpleasant, vile racists. Doesn't get us very far does it?

I have worked in this field for over 25 years and seen literally thousands of people in their homes. To suggest that people en masse are milking the system and living the high life is incorrect. Yes there will be cases like the ex lady captain fraudulently claiming disability benefits but these are outweighed many fold by those not claiming benefits they are entitled to.

Yes there are and always have been criminal families and families where nobody in generations have worked. Are we suggesting children should suffer as a result?.

75% of those with long term mental health problems do not work.

A single mother with 3 children is entitled to £179.00 income based benefits per week. This amount has to cover food, water, electricity, gas, phone, TV licence, internet, clothes, insurance, council tax, transport, laundry etc etc.

55% of the Department of Work & Pension's budget goes on pensions

A couple earning £100k can claim £2.5k child benefit

Internet connection is obligatory for school homework

I for one do not want to live in a society where I have to step between homeless people on the streets of our great towns and cities. I don't want my fellow citizens to suffer the humiliation of proving their entitlement to receive charity from a food bank. I don't want to see a disheveled underclass whilst I am out shopping. We are a very wealthy country and I suppose it comes down to our values as to how this wealth should be distributed.

Good comments. In your work did you find that many people needing state support were Mothers with Children where the Father was absent and took no responsibility for the upkeep of his children.