# Brexit Two Months On



## Doon frae Troon (Sep 20, 2016)

So devoid of any coherent plan the Tories beg the SNP to help them out.:lol:  


http://www.scottishconservatives.com/2016/09/snp-must-explain-how-it-will-make-brexit-work/


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 20, 2016)

Not at all.

Merely asking the SNP led administration to stop acting like a bunch of truculent teenagers who didn't get their own way. Time for the grown-ups now to accept the country's (UK) decision and make a success of this.

And I speak as one who was active in the Remain campaign.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 20, 2016)

Did you actually read that article Doom?   It is very critical of Scotland.


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## fundy (Sep 20, 2016)

that chip get any bigger Doon lol


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## Alex1975 (Sep 20, 2016)

Ahh what a shame... since the remoaners stopped crying things have been going so well. It must be very frustrating to have got it so wrong in the aftermath of the vote. I get why you would attempt to have a little cry but.... Lets carry on and make things work. 

I work in finance and we literally cannot keep up with demand for high capital cost projects for office space refurbishment and new offices.


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## Val (Sep 20, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Did you actually read that article Doom?   It is very critical of Scotland.
		
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SR, come on man .............. Doon + facts rarely appear on the same post. He'll probably not answer your question.


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## User62651 (Sep 20, 2016)

I'm sick of politics in UK/Scotland! These elected people are there to serve us the electorate yet most of them seem to serve themselves.

SNP lost 2014 referendum and can't accept result. So many ifs buts and maybe's 2 years later and worse than ever  BUT more people are voting for them than before and until SNP + allies have less MSP's in Holyrood so they can't get a majority on issues it's not going to go away so we are stuck with this bickering/indecision for at least 5 years more until next Holyrood election.

EU referendum went 'out' yet masses of people and politicians already wont accept it as a democratic decision. Doesn't matter if Brexit hasn't been worked through in detail, the decision is made, get on with it. Even more ifs buts and maybes and I don't think Cameron and Co. should have gambled on it but they did and they couldn't convince sufficient people so it is what it is, me move forwards.

One of these votes wen't my way, one didn't but I accept that democratic process, why can't others?


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 20, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Did you actually read that article Doom?   It is very critical of Scotland.
		
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Did you actually read who wrote it 

The headline just amused me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 20, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			I'm sick of politics in UK/Scotland! These elected people are there to serve us the electorate yet most of them seem to serve themselves.

*SNP lost 2014 referendum and can't accept result.* So many ifs buts and maybe's 2 years later and worse than ever  BUT more people are voting for them than before and until SNP + allies have less MSP's in Holyrood so they can't get a majority on issues it's not going to go away so we are stuck with this bickering/indecision for at least 5 years more until next Holyrood election.

EU referendum went 'out' yet masses of people and politicians already wont accept it as a democratic decision. Doesn't matter if Brexit hasn't been worked through in detail, the decision is made, get on with it. Even more ifs buts and maybes and I don't think Cameron and Co. should have gambled on it but they did and they couldn't convince sufficient people so it is what it is, me move forwards.

One of these votes wen't my way, one didn't but I accept that democratic process, why can't others?
		
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Unless you missed it the N in SNP stands for National - and their raison d'etre is independence.  They have accepted the referendum result but will never give up on their ultimate goal - and why would you expect them to?

If the Scottish electorate get brassed off with the SNP continually 'going on' and working towards achieving independence then they will stop voting for them.


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 20, 2016)

It's kind of a fair point. The SNP government do prefer to act like they're in opposition rather than taking responsibility and governing. However there's a lot of brass neck for the tories to be making this point given the omnishambles they have orchestrated over brexit and their general cluelessness over how to proceed.

Incidentally, there is a difference between disagreeing with the vote and not accepting it. We are where we are etc but as time passes and the specifics slowly emerge I am only more convinced we're going down the wrong road.


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## jp5 (Sep 20, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			One of these votes wen't my way, one didn't but I accept that democratic process, why can't others?
		
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I presume because one has a definite outcome and the other doesn't!


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## USER1999 (Sep 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So devoid of any coherent plan the Tories beg the SNP to help them out.:lol:  


http://www.scottishconservatives.com/2016/09/snp-must-explain-how-it-will-make-brexit-work/

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Strangely, I didn't read that as 'begging the SNP to help out', more asking them what their plan is for Scotland, given Brexit is going to happen, which you would have thought might be important to them.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 20, 2016)

Just for the record for all the out of touch folks who prattle on about the 2014 vote.
Since 2014
Within hours we have had EVEL, basically making Westminster a two tier parliament.
We have had the renewal of Trident
We have had Brexit. 

Scottish people did not vote for the first two and buy a large majority the voted against Brexit.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 20, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			Strangely, I didn't read that as 'begging the SNP to help out', more asking them what their plan is for Scotland, given Brexit is going to happen, which you would have thought might be important to them.
		
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:lol: I think you will find that they have got a really big plan.


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## MarkE (Sep 20, 2016)

Two months on and the Leave side are trying to get on with it. Remainers are still looking for any negative news to bang on about, willing us to fail.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			:lol: I think you will find that they have got a really big plan.
		
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You talk about the UK having no plan for Brexit but what plan have the SNP got for independance?


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## Paperboy (Sep 20, 2016)

drive4show said:



			You talk about the UK having no plan for Brexit but what plan have the SNP got for independance?
		
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Shussshhh Gordon your Scottish surely you know the plan!!


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Since 2014
Within hours we have had EVEL, basically making Westminster a two tier parliament.
We have had the renewal of Trident
We have had Brexit. 

Scottish people did not vote for the first two and buy a large majority the voted against Brexit.
		
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I don't recall English people getting a vote on EVEL or renewal of trident so I don't understand what your point is.

And as far as your third point the Scottish people voted by a large majority - to use your own words - to stay as part of the UK and therefore the SNP should accept the result of a UK vote to leave the EU rather than keep pushing for a new referendum every time something happens that the SNP doesn't like.


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## Alex1975 (Sep 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			:lol: I think you will find that they have got a really big plan.
		
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Get another vote? Gosh, can you imagine if they were too and win it... It would be hard to watch as Scotland quickly went bankrupt, not part of the UK or EU, no currency. Yuk, what a hideous mess it would be. Luckily smarter heads in larger number than the OP get to vote. It is lucky that some people know when things are good and how to be constructive. Shame Shame Shame that some are so unintelligent, naive and self destructive and thus could tarnish peoples wider views.


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## Foxholer (Sep 20, 2016)

What colour glasses were you reading that article with Doon?

Though there's a certain (huge) amount of irony about Conservatives asking the SNP to get on with it!

Many of the points are extremely relevant irrespective of Brexit - but even more-so because it WILL happen! Farming, Fishing and Tourism are the obvious areas where industry development planning is required, especially as the Oil income has been decimated! SNP continue to harp on about growing 'on-shore' revenue! So they need to get on and encourage it! IMO, it's only by doing so that they can truly demonstrate that they are actually govern, as opposed to simply 'administering' (with any deficit being funded by rest of UK) as they can be accused of doing currently!


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 20, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			Get another vote? Gosh, can you imagine if they were too and win it... It would be hard to watch as Scotland quickly went bankrupt, not part of the UK or EU, no currency. Yuk, what a hideous mess it would be. Luckily smarter heads in larger number than the OP get to vote. It is lucky that some people know when things are good and how to be constructive. Shame Shame Shame that some are so unintelligent, naive and self destructive and thus could tarnish peoples wider views.
		
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Do you not think though that the SNP support/votes/membership keeps on rising because they are actually 'getting on with it'. They do seem to have the confidence of the country.
If they were making as bad a job as you say surely you would expect their support would be falling. Such a cheap jibe calling 60% of an nation unintelligent. Many of the SNP supporters I know in my wee posh Ayrshire village are business owners, teachers skilled professionals and farmers. Twenty years ago I would imagine many would all have been Tory voters

What do you think the Scottish Tories or Labour parties should do to claw back the massive loss of support they have experienced in recent years ?


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## chrisd (Sep 20, 2016)

Scotland did not vote for Brexit??

They had as much say as everyone else!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you not think though that the SNP support/votes/membership keeps on rising because they are actually 'getting on with it'. They do seem to have the confidence of the country.
If they were making as bad a job as you say surely you would expect their support would be falling. Such a cheap jibe calling 60% of an nation unintelligent. Many of the SNP supporters I know in my wee posh Ayrshire village are business owners, teachers skilled professionals and farmers. Twenty years ago I would imagine many would all have been Tory voters

What do you think the Scottish Tories or Labour parties should do to claw back the massive loss of support they have experienced in recent years ?
		
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The answer to that is let the SNP run Scotland with no bailouts or subsidies. The SNP would then be losing support by the bucket load.  Their policies are a fiscal disaster and you know it.


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## JamPal (Sep 20, 2016)

chrisd said:



			Scotland did not vote for Brexit??

They had as much say as everyone else!
		
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Quite!

I live in Brighton, we didn't vote for Brexit either. Can we leave the UK too? No, and nor would we want to, even though we despise Westminster as much as the Scots do and for very similar reasons.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 20, 2016)

drive4show said:



			You talk about the UK having no plan for Brexit but what plan have the SNP got for independance?
		
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The SNP don't need to have a plan for independence - they should probably have a plan for working towards a successful vote next time one happens.  Brexit is happening and when something is happening it's usually handy to have some clearly stated objectives and measures stated against these objectives; a plan for delivering the objectives and for then for measuring when the objectives have been achieved.  I'm looking forward to hearing and seeing the plan that May has tasked the Three Brexiteers to put together for post Article 50.

And I as a remainer am not sitting back hoping for bad news and failure or difficulties with the Brexit negotiations.  Why would I want that?  My pension depends on a successful outcome; my children's futures depend upon a successful outcome.  I am not that stupidly bitter to want failure - though it seems that _Leave_ would like to portray me as being so when I simply point out issues and gaps in planning etc.  I'm thinking that portraying me as bitter is simply a play that the Brexiter camp use to deflect worries and criticisms we remainers'come up with - as they don;t have answers themselves.


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## Alex1975 (Sep 20, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The answer to that is let the SNP run Scotland with no bailouts or subsidies. The SNP would then be losing support by the bucket load.  Their policies are a fiscal disaster and you know it.
		
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^^^


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The SNP don't need to have a plan for independence
		
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I completely disagree. Not having a plan for Brexit is what is causing confusion at the moment. If you spend years and years petitioning for something, you must have a plan for if you get it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 20, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			I completely disagree. Not having a plan for Brexit is what is causing confusion at the moment. If you spend years and years petitioning for something, you must have a plan for if you get it.
		
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They don't need to have one at this present moment; it would make sense for them to have a plan for working *towards *a successful YES vote next time around.  When the next referendum comes around they would *then *need a plan for independence.

The government needs to have a plan for Brexit *now * or asap because at the moment Brexit is happening in an unplanned way.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The government needs to have a plan for Brexit *now * or asap because at the moment *Brexit is happening in an unplanned way*.
		
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No it's not!


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## jp5 (Sep 20, 2016)

Is it panto season already?


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## chrisd (Sep 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The government needs to have a plan for Brexit *now * or asap because at the moment Brexit is happening in an unplanned way.
		
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Absolute tosh, it would have been unplanned if the day Mrs May took office she popped round and dropped an article 50 note through the letterbox. I suggest that taking some time is absolutely about planning


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 20, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			The answer to that is let the SNP run Scotland with no bailouts or subsidies. The SNP would then be losing support by the bucket load.  Their policies are a fiscal disaster and you know it.
		
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Like most lazy thinkers you make the mistake that people who wish independence for Scotland only vote for the SNP. 

BTW you did not answer my question.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The government needs to have a plan for Brexit *now * or asap because at the moment Brexit is happening in an unplanned way.
		
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For you to claim that it is happening in an unplanned way I assume that you will be happy to post evidence of your invitations to, and presence at, every Brexit discussion or meeting that the government has been involved in since the referendum result was announced. Just because you don't know what the plan is doesn't mean that there isn't a plan. That's a bit like me saying that there is no such thing as couscous because I don't know what it is, other than something that those yoghurt dwelling, yurt eating, looney lefties seem to enjoy.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 20, 2016)

chrisd said:



			Absolute tosh, it would have been unplanned if the day Mrs May took office she popped round and dropped an article 50 note through the letterbox. I suggest that taking some time is absolutely about planning
		
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I am certain that if you say it often enough you will start believing it.

Did you see the faces and body language of Johnstone/Farage etc. on the day Leave won.

One of my old golfing partners had his [golf] balls engraved with 'Osh It'...... says it all.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am certain that if you say it often enough you will start believing it.

Did you see the faces and body language of Johnstone/Farage etc. on the day Leave won.

One of my old golfing partners had his [golf] balls engraved with 'Osh It'...... says it all.
		
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So, your statement that Brexit is unplanned is based upon your interpretation of the body language of those two, one of whom is not involved in the process.

Really!?

Even by your standards that is pretty incredible.


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## chrisd (Sep 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I am certain that if you say it often enough you will start believing it.

Did you see the faces and body language of Johnstone/Farage etc. on the day Leave won.

One of my old golfing partners had his [golf] balls engraved with 'Osh It'...... says it all.
		
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I did see their faces and yes they were suprised, but no less happy than expected. But then I voted out so why would I have to start believing?


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## drdel (Sep 20, 2016)

I am amazed what some people believe can be published/achieved in 2 months. We aren't discussing going shopping with SWMBO.

Do you really expect a government faced with negotiating terms with EU members and the RoW will make public their requirements/demands? - that would be the most stupid and simplistic way to do a deal I've known!

As for the Scots, their stance is nothing more than opportunistic headline grabbing nonsense since even Ms Sturgeon will know that these deals are not constructed under the glare of TV cameras or reporters. Grow up - please.


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## User62651 (Sep 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If the Scottish electorate get brassed off with the SNP continually 'going on' and working towards achieving independence then they will stop voting for them.
		
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Well, it's not that black and white, many people vote for SNP for Holyrood as they're seen as standing up for and doing quite well for Scotland whilst the Tories run the UK. As they're a left wing party and Labour in Scotland have messed up so badly and almost disintegrated so SNP have taken that vote share, but that is not the same as wanting independence. Voting SNP and wanting Scottish independence do not go hand in hand and you can't make assumptions that it does.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Like most lazy thinkers you make the mistake that people who wish independence for Scotland only vote for the SNP. 

BTW you did not answer my question.

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Like most confused thinkers you make no sense.

What question was that then?


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Like most confused thinkers you make no sense.

What question was that then?
		
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The one I asked to the post you replied to.

It involves a knowledge of Scottish politics so I will not hold my breath.


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## Foxholer (Sep 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...
If the Scottish electorate get brassed off with the SNP continually 'going on' and working towards achieving independence then they will stop voting for them.
		
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Er...Just exactly when is the next opportunity 'they' will have to 'stop voting for them'?!


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## ger147 (Sep 21, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Er...Just exactly when is the next opportunity 'they' will have to 'stop voting for them'?!
		
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4th May next year.


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## Foxholer (Sep 21, 2016)

ger147 said:



			4th May next year.
		
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While a 'reasonable' barometer of attitudes, Council elections are rarely particularly relevant to those involving REAL power! As in this case, they are often quite early in the 'election cycle', so also inclined to have an element of 'protest' against the negative actions those in power impost early in the cycle - to get them out of the way and forgotten before the 'main election'!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The one I asked to the post you replied to.

It involves a knowledge of Scottish politics so I will not hold my breath.
		
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You always speak in riddles when you get tied up with your nonsensical musings.  If you cant explain what you want me to answer then I'm not interested in your childish games


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## ger147 (Sep 21, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			While a 'reasonable' barometer of attitudes, Council elections are rarely particularly relevant to those involving REAL power! As in this case, they are often quite early in the 'election cycle', so also inclined to have an element of 'protest' against the negative actions those in power impost early in the cycle - to get them out of the way and forgotten before the 'main election'!
		
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Was simply answering your question i.e. that's the next chance the Scottish electorate have to vote in smaller numbers for the SNP.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 21, 2016)

ger147 said:



			Was simply answering your question i.e. that's the next chance the Scottish electorate have to vote in smaller numbers for the SNP.
		
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I doubt any Indyr2 will be held for some time - and so it's highly likely IMO that there will be at least one further Holyrood election and another Westminster election before Indyref2.  The SNP will want to be sure they'll win an Indyref2 and elections are the best opinion polls.


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## palindromicbob (Sep 21, 2016)

"Opposition party calls for ruling party to start planning for upcoming changes so that they get the best for the people" isn't nearly as catchy a headline I suppose.


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## Marshy77 (Sep 22, 2016)

I was in college on Tuesday in my accountancy class and we were talking about ethics, standards and regualtions. Tutor mentioned that she was unsure what would happen with international standards over the next couple of years because of the Brexit. One of the girls in the class who's maybe late teens/early 20's said 'whats Brexit!!' I can't understand how anyone, especially who could vote doesn't know anything about it. Really suprises me.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You always speak in riddles when you get tied up with your nonsensical musings.  If you cant explain what you want me to answer then I'm not interested in your childish games 

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Was that it....and Alex as well........
You wish the 'bail outs and subsidies' to stop for the SNP but not for he Scottish Tory and Labour parties if they were in control. That is not an answer to the question I asked.

Perhaps you could name a few of these 'bail out and subsidies' you talk about, and while you are at it name some of the Scottish overspending you often witter on about.

You are of course aware that Scotland receives a fixed rate from Westminster. It cannot over spend, the entire period that the SNP have been in control they have come in under budget. They have also started some major infrastructure builds such as the Third Forth Bridge, Borders Railway, M73/M8/M74 motorway improvements and A9 dualing.


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## Hobbit (Sep 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You are of course aware that Scotland receives a fixed rate from Westminster. It cannot over spend, the entire period that the SNP have been in control they have come in under budget. They have also started some major infrastructure builds such as the Third Forth Bridge, Borders Railway, M73/M8/M74 motorway improvements and A9 dualing.
		
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Revenue received from Scotland = Â£53.7billion
Expenditure in Scotland = Â£68.6billion

A net fiscal balance of -Â£14.9billion

That's 9.5% of GDP, and against a UK GDP of 4.0%.

All the above figures were publicised in the GERS report.

The SNP may well have come in under budget, but did they set a balanced budget? It would appear not. And it falls well outside the recommended GDP for fiscal stability. The SNP are buying popularity and votes.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 22, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Revenue received from Scotland = Â£53.7billion
Expenditure in Scotland = Â£68.6billion

A net fiscal balance of -Â£14.9billion

That's 9.5% of GDP, and against a UK GDP of 4.0%.

All the above figures were publicised in the GERS report.

The SNP may well have come in under budget, but did they set a balanced budget? It would appear not. And it falls well outside the recommended GDP for fiscal stability. The SNP are buying popularity and votes.
		
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Can you tell me if UK GDP includes Scottish goods shipped from English ports [Whisky etc] and Scottish owned companies with their administration base in England. 

Splitting UK/Scotland GDP is not possible [as I am sure you know]


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## Hobbit (Sep 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Can you tell me if UK GDP includes Scottish goods shipped from English ports [Whisky etc] and Scottish owned companies with their administration base in England. 

Splitting UK/Scotland GDP is not possible [as I am sure you know]
		
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Like I said, "All the above figures were publicised in the GERS report." Maybe you should take it up with your local MSP... However, as EU law stipulates where revenue should be shown in terms of geography and legal entities, I'd be inclined to think the GERS report is accurate.

But I suppose you could say that the UK GDP is dragged up to 4% because of how bad the Scottish GDP is.


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## Alex1975 (Sep 22, 2016)

So bankrupt very quickly if Scotland was independent.... Ouch. They should make a plan!


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## Foxholer (Sep 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:





Doon frae Troon said:



			..
*What do you think the Scottish Tories or Labour parties should do to claw back the massive loss of support they have experienced in recent years ?*

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SocketRocket said:



			...

What question was that then?
		
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Doon frae Troon said:



			The one I asked to the post you replied to.

It involves a knowledge of Scottish politics so I will not hold my breath.
		
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You always speak in riddles when you get tied up with your nonsensical musings.  If you cant explain what you want me to answer then I'm not interested in your childish games 

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Maybe I'm better at riddles than you, but it didn't take a lot to get back to the post Doon seemed to be referring to. And I think that's the (unanswered) question he was asking. There was at least one other one in the post though.



Doon frae Troon said:



			...
You are of course aware that Scotland receives a fixed rate from Westminster. It cannot over spend, the entire period that the SNP have been in control they have come in under budget....
		
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That grant is NOT the only source of funding for Scotland! Borrowing is one of the additional areas, as is the (as yet unused) 'Tartan Tax'!

However, it's the GERS report that Hobbit referred to that clearly shows that Scotland is seriously spending significantly more - and a far greater amount per head of population than the rest of the UK - than what it is (nominally) earning!  Here's a link that might clarify! https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/mar/24/ifs-scotland-debts-three-times-greater-uk

Btw. This thread is about Brexit - not Scottish Independence! Get back 'On Topic'!


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 22, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Btw. This thread is about Brexit - not Scottish Independence! Get back 'On Topic'!
		
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Similar disasters though....


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## Alex1975 (Sep 22, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Similar disasters though....
		
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But at least Brexit is what the majority of people want.....


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## IanG (Sep 22, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			But at least Brexit is what the majority of people want.....
		
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It's true that 'Brexit' is what they wanted, but when they see what they will get will the majority still want it ? 

I have my doubts

But I still have bigger doubts it will ever come to pass. The long grass is growing, German and French elections looming. Watch this space, but not too closely because not much will be happening soon.... IMHO


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## Alex1975 (Sep 22, 2016)

IanG said:



			It's true that 'Brexit' is what they wanted, but when they see what they will get will the majority still want it ? 

I have my doubts

But I still have bigger doubts it will ever come to pass. The long grass is growing, German and French elections looming. Watch this space, but not too closely because not much will be happening soon.... IMHO
		
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Hehehe, I was not meaning to restart the remoaning....


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## SocketRocket (Sep 22, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Maybe I'm better at riddles than you, but it didn't take a lot to get back to the post Doon seemed to be referring to. And I think that's the (unanswered) question he was asking. There was at least one other one in the post though.



That grant is NOT the only source of funding for Scotland! Borrowing is one of the additional areas, as is the (as yet unused) 'Tartan Tax'!

However, it's the GERS report that Hobbit referred to that clearly shows that Scotland is seriously spending significantly more - and a far greater amount per head of population than the rest of the UK - than what it is (nominally) earning!  Here's a link that might clarify! https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/mar/24/ifs-scotland-debts-three-times-greater-uk

Btw. This thread is about Brexit - not Scottish Independence! Get back 'On Topic'!
		
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I see you've not had that counseling yet.   Hurry up before you spontaneously combust. :thup:


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## Foxholer (Sep 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I see you've not had that counseling yet.   Hurry up before you spontaneously combust. :thup:
		
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How tedious!  And completely irrelevant to the discussion!

Have you read the Forum FAQs recently?  '...Be polite, respect peoplesâ€™ opinions Criticise ideas, not users...'


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## SocketRocket (Sep 22, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			How tedious!  And completely irrelevant to the discussion!

Have you read the Forum FAQs recently?  '...Be polite, respect peoplesâ€™ opinions Criticise ideas, not users...'
		
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I have explained to you ad nauseam  that I have no wish or intention of debating anything with you.   You are aware that due to your policy of stalking my every post it has been pointed out that we should keep a distance.  I am doing my best to do that but you apparently find that difficult.

So!  Once again;    Give it up!


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## Foxholer (Sep 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			...*due to your policy of stalking my every post*

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I have no such policy! Nor have I ever have had such a 'policy'! 

Let's use some actual data and facts here! To do so (and for no other reason!) I've checked your last 50+ posts. Discounting those involving this sub-discussion, I've replied to 2 or 3! so nowhere near 'stalking your every post' (even if I missed some!). I think I know where any obsession lies!



SocketRocket said:



			...I am doing my best...
		
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A D-minus for the fact that you posted #59 then! Clearly not good enough!

There is absolutely no need to reply! To quote from one of your posts (another that added nothing to the actual thread!)... 'Try to resist.' I'll make no bet on your ability to do so however !


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## SocketRocket (Sep 22, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			I have no such policy! Nor have I ever have had such a 'policy'! 

Let's use some actual data and facts here! To do so (and for no other reason!) I've checked your last 50+ posts. Discounting those involving this sub-discussion, I've replied to 2 or 3! so nowhere near 'stalking your every post' (even if I missed some!). I think I know where any obsession lies!



A D-minus for the fact that you posted #59 then! Clearly not good enough!

There is absolutely no need to reply! To quote from one of your posts (another that added nothing to the actual thread!)... 'Try to resist.' I'll make no bet on your ability to do so however !
		
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Post 54 is a typical example of how you do it.

Rearrange these words into a well known phrase or saying:  One Do.


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## Hobbit (Sep 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Rearrange these words into a well known phrase or saying:  One Do.
		
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one do free fore?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 22, 2016)

Marshy77 said:



			I was in college on Tuesday in my accountancy class and we were talking about ethics, standards and regualtions. *Tutor mentioned that she was unsure what would happen with international standards over the next couple of years because of the Brexit. *One of the girls in the class who's maybe late teens/early 20's said 'whats Brexit!!' I can't understand how anyone, especially who could vote doesn't know anything about it. Really suprises me.
		
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Was reading today of the difficulties that Switzerland are having getting agreements in place with the EU to get free access to the single market.  One of the biggest issues is around standards.  Apparently there are 120 agreements now in place between the EU and Switzerland - each containing the relevant EU legislation.  

But the EU legislation is not static - it is dynamic and changes in accordance with directives coming out of the European Court of Justice.  And that means Switzerland have to change their agreements in accordance with the ECJ - and that doesn't sit well with them - but that's the deal.  How Brexiteers will take to the ECJ making rules for the EU-UK - I am not sure - not exactly the UK taking back control.  But as the article said - what else can be done if that's the basis of free access to the single market.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Was reading today of the difficulties that Switzerland are having getting agreements in place with the EU to get free access to the single market.  One of the biggest issues is around standards.  Apparently there are 120 agreements now in place between the EU and Switzerland - each containing the relevant EU legislation.  

But the EU legislation is not static - it is dynamic and changes in accordance with directives coming out of the European Court of Justice.  And that means Switzerland have to change their agreements in accordance with the ECJ - and that doesn't sit well with them - but that's the deal.  How Brexiteers will take to the ECJ making rules for the EU-UK - I am not sure - not exactly the UK taking back control.  But as the article said - what else can be done if that's the basis of free access to the single market.
		
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I think there is a growing realism that membership of the Single Market is not what we want if it also means accepting free movement of people, Paying into the EU project, CAP etc.  Breaking free from the single market and the straight jacket that comes with it is looking to be a better option for Brexit.


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## USER1999 (Sep 22, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Similar disasters though....
		
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Got a crystal ball? A touch of fortune telling going on here. You don't know Brexit is a disaster, in the same way that I don't know that staying in the EU would be a disaster. I think it, but I don't know it. Even if the EU doesn't fold, in the way I think it will, it may be due to reforms, made in part because of Brexit. The EU as it stands is in a lot of trouble. No one can deny that.


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 22, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			Got a crystal ball? A touch of fortune telling going on here. You don't know Brexit is a disaster, in the same way that I don't know that staying in the EU would be a disaster. I think it, but I don't know it. Even if the EU doesn't fold, in the way I think it will, it may be due to reforms, made in part because of Brexit. The EU as it stands is in a lot of trouble. No one can deny that.
		
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Just an opinion. Already a disaster as far as I'm concerned. Time will tell if that translates into the long term economics or not.


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 22, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Just an opinion. Already a disaster as far as I'm concerned. Time will tell if that translates into the long term economics or not.
		
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What is it about Brexit that makes it already a disaster?


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 22, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			What is it about Brexit that makes it already a disaster?
		
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We're a laughing stock, an embarrassment.


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## Pants (Sep 22, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			We're a laughing stock, an embarrassment.
		
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You could well be right Karen.


But, what about the rest of the UK?????
:mmm:


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 22, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			We're a laughing stock, an embarrassment.
		
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Who is and with/to who?


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## the smiling assassin (Sep 22, 2016)

drive4show said:



			You talk about the UK having no plan for Brexit but what plan have the SNP got for independance?
		
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Basically I've heard the plan is that everyone lines up with their backs to the border, pulls their pants down and drop a wee turd over the other side. 

Meanwhile everyone in England just carries on.


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## Foxholer (Sep 23, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Post 54 is a typical example of how you do it.

Rearrange these words into a well known phrase or saying: One Do.
		
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Yep! That was 1 of the '2 or 3' out of your last 50+ that I have replied to!

I replied to neither #2 nor #23 - though #23 was quoted as it was part of the 'trail' back to Doon's question!

Btw. There is no 'e' in (at the end of) Doon!  :rofl:


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## SocketRocket (Sep 23, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Yep! That was 1 of the '2 or 3' out of your last 50+ that I have replied to!

I replied to neither #2 nor #23 - though #23 was quoted as it was part of the 'trail' back to Doon's question!

Btw. There is no 'e' in (at the end of) Doon!  :rofl:
		
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Grow up and 'Do One'   That's the only reply you will get from me Odd Ball!


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## Alex1975 (Sep 23, 2016)

Pants said:



			You could well be right Karen.


But, what about the rest of the UK?????
:mmm:


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:clap:

Fairway Dodger... Its looking like you just want to stamp your feet but when asked why there seems to be no substance to your objection.


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 23, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			:clap:

Fairway Dodger... Its looking like you just want to stamp your feet but when asked why there seems to be no substance to your objection.
		
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Think I've explained my view in detail on a number of threads. I'm just not overly keen on arguing through it yet again. It's consistent on the issues of Scottish independence and brexit. I'm not an economist not greatly interested in the tired arguments about whether Scotland/uk is better off in or out of uk/Europe. Personally I think both sides of that argument are lying through their teeth just to further their own preference.

Basically the future of humanity and the planet is best served by coming together and cooperating, removing barriers rather than creating them. Sadly we are moving in the wrong direction, driven by jingoism, nationalism and, in some cases, even racism.

Personally I find brexit and the constant carping for independence to be embarrassing. It's just sad.

As for my laughing stock comment, HID is just back from a conference in Europe at which she was the only British speaker. Lots of brexit chat there and they are laughing at us.

So feel free to disagree with me but try to avoid cheap jibes.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 23, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Think I've explained my view in detail on a number of threads. I'm just not overly keen on arguing through it yet again. It's consistent on the issues of Scottish independence and brexit. I'm not an economist not greatly interested in the tired arguments about whether Scotland/uk is better off in or out of uk/Europe. Personally I think both sides of that argument are lying through their teeth just to further their own preference.

Basically the future of humanity and the planet is best served by coming together and cooperating, removing barriers rather than creating them. Sadly we are moving in the wrong direction, driven by jingoism, nationalism and, in some cases, even racism.

Personally I find brexit and the constant carping for independence to be embarrassing. It's just sad.

*As for my laughing stock comment, HID is just back from a conference in Europe at which she was the only British speaker. Lots of brexit chat there and they are laughing at us.
*
So feel free to disagree with me but try to avoid cheap jibes.
		
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And we have heard many commentators in the media say the same thing from their conversations with European (and wider) politicians and policy makers/influencers.  But FD - we will be told that that is just hearsay with no evidential basis.


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## Hobbit (Sep 23, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And we have heard many commentators in the media say the same thing from their conversations with European (and wider) politicians and policy makers/influencers.  But FD - we will be told that that is just hearsay with no evidential basis.
		
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Just because, "someone said," doesn't make it evidenced based. It's anecdotal. My experience with my European colleagues who I speak with almost every day certainly doesn't suggest they are laughing at us. They are very worried economically for themselves, and very much want the politicians to get their act together and end the uncertainty.

Also, I'm just back from 3 weeks in Europe. Lots of travelling well away from the tourist areas, and as we like to go where the locals go we like to talk to the locals. There were questions about Brexit but the feeling from the locals was more of a "what have we done wrong for you to want to leave ?"


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## SocketRocket (Sep 23, 2016)

To suggest 'They are laughing at us' is a very big generalisation and probably untrue (That's not a cheap jibe either)  It's like suggesting we are all laughing at them or they are a laughing stock.

I am a strong Brexiteer (If I have to carry that label) and think the EU Project is on a road to disaster but I dont think they are all stupid or a laughing stock.  They are being manipulated and lied to by the powerful elite  but thats not funny.


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 23, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Just because, "someone said," doesn't make it evidenced based. It's anecdotal. My experience with my European colleagues who I speak with almost every day certainly doesn't suggest they are laughing at us. They are very worried economically for themselves, and very much want the politicians to get their act together and end the uncertainty.

Also, I'm just back from 3 weeks in Europe. Lots of travelling well away from the tourist areas, and as we like to go where the locals go we like to talk to the locals. There were questions about Brexit but the feeling from the locals was more of a "what have we done wrong for you to want to leave ?"
		
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Indeed, it is more nuanced than can easily be expressed. All of these responses are happening, often from the same people at different times or different situations.


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## Foxholer (Sep 23, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Also, I'm just back from 3 weeks in Europe. Lots of travelling well away from the tourist areas, and as we like to go where the locals go we like to talk to the locals. There were questions about Brexit but the feeling from the locals was more of a "what have we done wrong for you to want to leave ?"
		
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I hope you assured them that it wasn't '*them*' that had done things wrong! Merely a reaction to the over-federalistic policies of *those running the EU*! Oh and a wish, from the likely 'end destination' to control/manage immigration!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 23, 2016)

And so our foreign secretary takes a compromising stance in his initial pronouncements on Brexit negotiations, telling us that ... it is â€œabsolute baloneyâ€ to suggest that Britain will be unable to retain access to the European single market unless it keeps free movement rules allowing all EU citizens to live and work in the UK.

Not leaving yourself much wriggle room with that sort of statement.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so our foreign secretary takes a compromising stance in his initial pronouncements on Brexit negotiations, telling us that ... it is â€œabsolute baloneyâ€ to suggest that Britain will be unable to retain access to the European single market unless it keeps free movement rules allowing all EU citizens to live and work in the UK.

Not leaving yourself much wriggle room with that sort of statement.
		
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The PM soon slapped him back in his box though.

I think it was a stroke of genius to put Fox, Boris and the other Brexit guy in charge of foreign policy/business.
I wonder how long it will take for them to find a reason to resign [or join UKIP:lol:]


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 2, 2016)

Theresa May fires the starting gun on Brexit and shoots herself in the foot.

She wouldn't tell us what she was going to do during Brexit negotiations but has now dealt her cards face up by saying that the UK will take on board all EU law.

More than two years before of this will happen the EU knows the end game, can now sit back, do nothing and wait for the UK to come to it seeking negotiations on specific areas. 

Brilliant.  

Also suggests that May is leaning towards the _'total control over immigration no matter what'_ right wing section of the Tory Party - almost regardless the impact that would have on business through tariffs and workforce issues - the very business that bank-rolls her party.

Let us not forget that the Leave campaign promised a UK-EU free trade deal with continued access to the single market.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 2, 2016)

Didn't she actually say that we would take all EU laws and then decide later which ones we keep and which ones we repeal? And as she is going to remove the European Communities Act 1972 we then get to decide which laws apply. 

"The repeal of the 1972 Act will not take effect until the UK leaves the EU under Article 50. It will be contained in a "Great Repeal Bill", promised in the next Queen's Speech, which will also enshrine all existing EU law into British law.The repeal bill will enable Parliament to *amend and cancel any unwanted legislation* and also end the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice in the UK."

So yes all current EU laws, that we already follow anyway, will be enshrined into law and we can then decide afterwards which bits we want to keep or get rid of. But I guess that reporting the truth would mean that you couldn't turn it into a negative against the Tory government or Brexit.


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## Foxholer (Oct 2, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Theresa May fires the starting gun on Brexit and shoots herself in the foot.

She wouldn't tell us what she was going to do during Brexit negotiations but has now dealt her cards face up by saying that the UK will take on board all EU law.

More than two years before of this will happen the EU knows the end game, can now sit back, do nothing and wait for the UK to come to it seeking negotiations on specific areas. 

Brilliant.  
...
		
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This is an entirely reasonable strategy! In fact, the ONLY reasonable one!

Anything else would either create a huge vacuum of laws/regs or would create an impossible workload of laws to create/pass!

The obvious strategy is to create/pass replacement laws with a 'subject to' clause that depends on the one biggy that repeals the European Community Act. Part of the role of the taskforce/new Department is to identify those new laws that will be required - or those that will need to be amended - and set them up for passing through the standard law-making process. It's really quite a simple - if enormous - task!

Oh. And the Leave campaign didn't actually 'promise' any UK-EU trade deal/continued access - or not as far as I remember! It certainly offered paths of how that could be achieved - understandably without mentioning the costs/difficulties!


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## Hobbit (Oct 2, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Theresa May fires the starting gun on Brexit and shoots herself in the foot.

She wouldn't tell us what she was going to do during Brexit negotiations but has now dealt her cards face up by saying that the UK will take on board all EU law.

More than two years before of this will happen the EU knows the end game, can now sit back, do nothing and wait for the UK to come to it seeking negotiations on specific areas. 

Brilliant.  

Also suggests that May is leaning towards the _'total control over immigration no matter what'_ right wing section of the Tory Party - almost regardless the impact that would have on business through tariffs and workforce issues - the very business that bank-rolls her party.

Let us not forget that the Leave campaign promised a UK-EU free trade deal with continued access to the single market.
		
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Unbelieveable! 

You've complained bitterly for months about a lack of a plan, and then you complain that when you're told the plan the PM has laid her cards face up. 

And to to cap it all you clearly haven't understood what the intention is with the EU laws, see Foxy's post.

You couldn't write a better Monty Python-esqe script.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 2, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Unbelieveable! 

You've complained bitterly for months about a lack of a plan, and then you complain that when you're told the plan the PM has laid her cards face up. 

And to to cap it all you clearly haven't understood what the intention is with the EU laws, see Foxy's post.

You couldn't write a better Monty Python-esqe script.
		
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You are quite right - I can't believe that anyone would be gullible enough to believe her waffle.  She hasn't a clue - what to do.  So let's just have her say something to make her sound decisive.

What's the plan again?  We'll invoke Article 50 by end March 2017.  Hmmm - I suppose that is a bit of a plan - is it a promise or an aspiration?  If she told us what is to happen between now and then - then that would make a plan.  And if it is a plan there must be objectives stated - what are these objectives - anyone know?  Exiting the EU isn't really an objective - it's a constraint.  Because we must exit the EU (whatever that means) - no ifs - no buts.  But in exiting the EU we need some objectives and some measures to know whether or not we have met the objectives.  At the moment all business and the rest of us knows is that we are leaving the EU - but we don't know what we are going to have with us when we do.  

A bit like someone telling me that I am going to have to jump out of a plane next week.  I know I need something to stop me crashing into the ground too quickly (would be very sore and probably fatal) but I don't know what will do that.  It will most likely be a parachute but I don't yet know what sort I need; how I am going to get one; how much it will cost; will I have the money to buy it; where will I get it from.  But come what may - I am going to have to jump.  I'd be crapping myself.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 2, 2016)

May wasn't part of the Leave campaign and is certainly not tied to any promises that they made. They promised all sorts but none of those promises mean anything.


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## Foxholer (Oct 2, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are quite right - I can't believe that anyone would be gullible enough to believe her waffle.  She hasn't a clue - what to do.  So let's just have her say something to make her sound decisive.

What's the plan again?  We'll invoke Article 50 by end March 2017.  Hmmm - I suppose that is a bit of a plan - is it a promise or an aspiration?  If she told us what is to happen between now and then - then that would make a plan.  And if it is a plan there must be objectives stated - what are these objectives - anyone know?  Exiting the EU isn't really an objective - it's a constraint.  Because we must exit the EU (whatever that means) - no ifs - no buts.  But in exiting the EU we need some objectives and some measures to know whether or not we have met the objectives.  At the moment all business and the rest of us knows is that we are leaving the EU - but we don't know what we are going to have with us when we do.  

A bit like someone telling me that I am going to have to jump out of a plane next week.  I know I need something to stop me crashing into the ground too quickly (would be very sore and probably fatal) but I don't know what will do that.  It will most likely be a parachute but I don't yet know what sort I need; how I am going to get one; how much it will cost; will I have the money to buy it; where will I get it from.  But come what may - I am going to have to jump.  I'd be crapping myself.
		
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Eh! what?! As hobbit noted...Unbelievable!

Are you blind & deaf?

Or do you simply refuse to see & hear?


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## Hobbit (Oct 2, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Eh! what?! As hobbit noted...Unbelievable!

Are you blind & deaf?

Or do you simply refuse to see & hear?
		
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Too many pints of bitter(ness) methinks??


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## SocketRocket (Oct 2, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Theresa May fires the starting gun on Brexit and shoots herself in the foot.

She wouldn't tell us what she was going to do during Brexit negotiations but has now dealt her cards face up by saying that the UK will take on board all EU law.

More than two years before of this will happen the EU knows the end game, can now sit back, do nothing and wait for the UK to come to it seeking negotiations on specific areas. 

Brilliant.  

Also suggests that May is leaning towards the _'total control over immigration no matter what'_ right wing section of the Tory Party - almost regardless the impact that would have on business through tariffs and workforce issues - the very business that bank-rolls her party.

Let us not forget that the Leave campaign promised a UK-EU free trade deal with continued access to the single market.
		
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Does your brain only have an output control?    Try fiddling with it and you may come across a button that says 'Input' If you switch it on you will experience a new sensation whereby other ideas feed in allowing you to consider other inputs that offer you the opportunity to question your previous binary view.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 3, 2016)

In fairness, SILH, we had a vote and decided to throw you out of the plane. Sorry you don't like it but we will come up with something to reduce the impact on you. Oh not sure exactly when we're chucking you out but will be before March probably. 

We've got a committee of forummers working on your parachute or giant airbag of something. We did have some physics professors and engineers looking at it be decided it was best to avoid experts on this.

Pretty sure you'll thrive after getting thrown out the plane. You will be a shining example to the world of good bouncing, or floating, or landing softly or something. Maybe.

Anyway, stop your whining, you've nothing to worry about.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 3, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			In fairness, SILH, we had a vote and decided to throw you out of the plane. Sorry you don't like it but we will come up with something to reduce the impact on you. Oh not sure exactly when we're chucking you out but will be before March probably. 

We've got a committee of forummers working on your parachute or giant airbag of something. We did have some physics professors and engineers looking at it be decided it was best to avoid experts on this.

Pretty sure you'll thrive after getting thrown out the plane. You will be a shining example to the world of good bouncing, or floating, or landing softly or something. Maybe.

Anyway, stop your whining, you've nothing to worry about.
		
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He's not getting thrown out of the plane, he just has to change flights and get on a different one. As the flight is two years away the airline cant be absolutely specific on the actual plane but they are pretty sure it will be one with wings and an engine, seats and have a pilot flying it.   Some of the passengers want to know the Pilots name and address in advance, they also want to know the colour of the plane and what the weather will be like on the day.   The Airline have said that it's impossible to give out these details until a week before the flight.

Happy Landings.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 3, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			He's not getting thrown out of the plane, he just has to change flights and get on a different one. As the flight is two years away the airline cant be absolutely specific on the actual plane but they are pretty sure it will be one with wings and an engine, seats and have a pilot flying it.   Some of the passengers want to know the Pilots name and address in advance, they also want to know the colour of the plane and what the weather will be like on the day.   The Airline have said that it's impossible to give out these details until a week before the flight.

Happy Landings.
		
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Eurgh.

As much as i'm really anti-Brexit, this is actually quite a good analogy for me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 3, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Eurgh.

As much as i'm really anti-Brexit, this is actually quite a good analogy for me.
		
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Except we know that both aircraft will be mid-flight, and that our passenger's current aircraft is not going to land and stop to enable one passenger to change aircraft.  So the passenger has somehow to get from one aircraft to another - mid-flight.  Besides - I'm not sure our passenger will be happy to book a flight on an aircraft that is not guaranteed to have wings.  I suppose it could be a balloon - floats about the place rather slowly and direction and speed rather subject to the vagaries of the weather - and we cannot control the weather. 

In truth I am pretty fed up of this 'it'll be alright on the night - just stop whinging you Remoaners' as we head for a 'full cut hard exit' from the EU and the Single Market - which is what May seems to have gone for (despite her and her chancellor being Remainers - which might have make you think she'd go 'soft option') - and so I think I'll just do a gradual conscious uncoupling from this whole debate.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Except we know that both aircraft will be mid-flight, and that our passenger's current aircraft is not going to land and stop to enable one passenger to change aircraft.  So the passenger has somehow to get from one aircraft to another - mid-flight.  Besides - I'm not sure our passenger will be happy to book a flight on an aircraft that is not guaranteed to have wings.  I suppose it could be a balloon - floats about the place rather slowly and direction and speed rather subject to the vagaries of the weather - and we cannot control the weather. 

In truth I am pretty fed up of this 'it'll be alright on the night - just stop whinging you Remoaners' as we head for a 'full cut hard exit' from the EU and the Single Market - which is what May seems to have gone for (despite her and her chancellor being Remainers - which might have make you think she'd go 'soft option') - and so I think I'll just do a gradual conscious uncoupling from this whole debate.
		
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You really are nothing more than a mirror image of "Daily Mail Man".

Never mind the detail or the facts just find a headline that you can use to trumpet your pre-conceived anti-Conservative Party views. 

You cannot uncouple from a debate you were never part of as to be involved you do, at least, have to listen and acknowledge opinions other than your own. Anything less is, I am afraid, nothing other than prejudice.

And I speak as one who was active in the Remain camp.


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## jp5 (Oct 3, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			May wasn't part of the Leave campaign and is certainly not tied to any promises that they made. They promised all sorts but none of those promises mean anything.
		
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May decided to run for leadership in wake of the Leave vote, so people will expect her to fulfil the Leave campaign promises.

Especially as all the key ministers in the Department for Brexit were prominent in the Leave campaign.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 3, 2016)

They weren't her promises. Feel free to dig out the clip which shows her making those statements. Her job as leader is to enforce the exit from Europe but not to make good the range of ludicrous promises made by other people during the campaign. The referendum was a yes/no to the EU, not a general election. There is no mandate nor pressue in my eyes for her to make good on anything other than leaving the EU. Now if Boris was leader that would be a different matter but he is not, she is.


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## jp5 (Oct 3, 2016)

Her specific promises are irrelevant, given as you say it wasn't a GE.

Having decided to take the helm, she takes responsibility for enacting the promises made by the victorious campaign.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 3, 2016)

Her responsibility is to enforce the policies from the Tory manifesto at the last election, not spurious rantings from a stand alone yes/no vote. The leave campaign was not run by the Conservative party, it was a free vote. She is only tied to the result and logic suggests she should abide by the wishes for tighter immigration as that came through clearly in the election. Nothing else. Should she enforce suggestions by Nigel Farage for example, someone she has no control over and is not even in the same party as her?


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## IanM (Oct 3, 2016)

Tory Manifesto was clear on having a Referendum and abiding by the outcome.  She seems to be getting on with it.

The Civil Service started on the prep within a week of the result.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 3, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Her responsibility is to enforce the policies from the Tory manifesto at the last election, not spurious rantings from a stand alone yes/no vote. The leave campaign was not run by the Conservative party, it was a free vote. She is only tied to the result and logic suggests she should abide by the wishes for tighter immigration as that came through clearly in the election. Nothing else. Should she enforce suggestions by Nigel Farage for example, someone she has no control over and is not even in the same party as her?
		
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I think she has a moral obligation to deliver what people voted for. All of it. Access to the free trade area without freedom of movement, Â£350m/week for the nhs - all the leave campaigns promises.

we keep hearing that the country voted and we need to respect the result so fine, get on with it, but deliver what was promised.


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## Alex1975 (Oct 3, 2016)

Its a funny post....

For those who clearly, literally have no one to talk to in their lives, post here things they don't even truly believe just to get a conversation try QVC or one of those insurance companies who give you a free pen for calling. These people will talk to you.


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## jp5 (Oct 3, 2016)

Think you may have missed the point of a forum.


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## jp5 (Oct 3, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Her responsibility is to enforce the policies from the Tory manifesto at the last election, not spurious rantings from a stand alone yes/no vote. The leave campaign was not run by the Conservative party, it was a free vote. She is only tied to the result and logic suggests she should abide by the wishes for tighter immigration as that came through clearly in the election. Nothing else. Should she enforce suggestions by Nigel Farage for example, someone she has no control over and is not even in the same party as her?
		
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Farage is pretty much the sole reason the referendum was had! Would say UKIP have a much greater influence over Government policy than the SNP or Lib Dems despite their lesser presence in the HoC (an artefact of a poor voting system).

I do think politically May is tied to the promises of the official campaign. She decided to take charge knowing the guarantees that had been made.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 3, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			You really are nothing more than a mirror image of "Daily Mail Man".

Never mind the detail or the facts just find a headline that you can use to trumpet your pre-conceived anti-Conservative Party views. 

You cannot uncouple from a debate you ere never part of as to be involved you do, at least, have to listen and acknowledge opinions other than your own. Anything less is, I am afraid, nothing other than prejudice.

And I speak as one who was active in the Remain camp.
		
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I have tried to listen - maybe you are right - and it hasn't got in.  Maybe I am just missing the obvious.  As I have said on more than one occasion - I really want the UK exiting the EU to work - I really do.  I have children who will suffer if it does not - I do not think I will particularly suffer financially if it goes wrong - but my children will - so I want this exit to succeed.  Whether you believe me or not - well I can't change that.  

I do however have a worry that a hard exit and (very?) controlled and restricted immigration will make the UK a less pleasant place in which to live as every 'foreigner' becomes for some a potential illegal immigrant; every current non-UK EU citizen remaining in the UK will become someone who - to some - should be 'going home' and who will feel 'unwanted'.  I very much hope I am wrong and that the christian values that underpin UK laws, culture and behaviours will prevail.  The majority - 64% according to a poll last year seem to still believe we are a christian country - we'll see how christian we are in practice over the coming years.


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## Alex1975 (Oct 3, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Think you may have missed the point of a forum.
		
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I guess I would have said the same. However I am not sure that some put what they actually think, more put something that will spark a conversations because they are lonely.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have tried to listen - maybe you are right - and it hasn't got in.  Maybe I am just missing the obvious.  As I have said on more than one occasion - I really want the UK exiting the EU to work - I really do.  I have children who will suffer if it does not - I do not think I will particularly suffer financially if it goes wrong - but my children will - so I want this exit to succeed.  Whether you believe me or not - well I can't change that.  

I do however have a worry that a hard exit and (very?) controlled and restricted immigration will make the UK a less pleasant place in which to live as every 'foreigner' becomes for some a potential illegal immigrant; every current non-UK EU citizen remaining in the UK will become someone who - to some - should be 'going home' and who will feel 'unwanted'.  I very much hope I am wrong and that the christian values that underpin UK laws, culture and behaviours will prevail.  The majority - 64% according to a poll last year seem to still believe we are a christian country - we'll see how christian we are in practice over the coming years.
		
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At this stage we have no real idea what form our Brexit will take and I, for one, would not expect to.

Speeches and statements can be made at party conferences but we should all realise who is the target audience for those and that they cannot nor should not be specific on our negotiating position.

In any deal we none of us would declare our bottom line before sitting down with the other party.

Personally I do not foresee very much changing with regard to social legislation, perhaps some tinkering but nothing fundamental. Obviously there will be changes to immigration rules but then I think that, in the not too distant future, that will be the case throughout Europe.

As a continent we cannot continue with the current systems which help no one, specifically including those from conflict zones who are most in need of our help.

But we all have no option now other than to wait and see the details of any deal with the EU as it unfolds. After all no political party has a manifesto position on this to which they can be held to account.

Our judgement will have to be retrospective in 2020.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 3, 2016)

jp5 said:



			May decided to run for leadership in wake of the Leave vote, so people will expect her to fulfil the Leave campaign promises.

Especially as all the key ministers in the Department for Brexit were prominent in the Leave campaign.
		
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Does she also have to fulfill the promises from the Remainers?   Ensure that every Household is Â£4,300 worse off, ensure there is a recession,  scrap millions of jobs, lower house prices, put up food prices, build Jungle Camps in Dover, Put up mortgage rates, Oh! and start world war III.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Except we know that both aircraft will be mid-flight, and that our passenger's current aircraft is not going to land and stop to enable one passenger to change aircraft.  So the passenger has somehow to get from one aircraft to another - mid-flight.  Besides - I'm not sure our passenger will be happy to book a flight on an aircraft that is not guaranteed to have wings.  I suppose it could be a balloon - floats about the place rather slowly and direction and speed rather subject to the vagaries of the weather - and we cannot control the weather. 

In truth I am pretty fed up of this 'it'll be alright on the night - just stop whinging you Remoaners' as we head for a 'full cut hard exit' from the EU and the Single Market - which is what May seems to have gone for (despite her and her chancellor being Remainers - which might have make you think she'd go 'soft option') - and so I think I'll just do a gradual conscious uncoupling from this whole debate.
		
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  The plane has landed and the new one is not scheduled until 2019 and I did say it would have wings, seats and an engine.   No one needs to jump out but if you feel like trying it as an option then the worlds your oyster.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 3, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			At this stage we have no real idea what form our Brexit will take and I, for one, would not expect to.

Speeches and statements can be made at party conferences but we should all realise who is the target audience for those and that they cannot nor should not be specific on our negotiating position.

In any deal we none of us would declare our bottom line before sitting down with the other party.

Personally I do not foresee very much changing with regard to social legislation, perhaps some tinkering but nothing fundamental. Obviously there will be changes to immigration rules but then I think that, in the not too distant future, that will be the case throughout Europe.

As a continent we cannot continue with the current systems which help no one, specifically including those from conflict zones who are most in need of our help.

*But we all have no option now other than to wait and see the details of any deal with the EU as it unfolds. After all no political party has a manifesto position on this to which they can be held to account.

Our judgement will have to be retrospective in 2020*.
		
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yup - that's it.  Fingers crossed.  And I do hope the good people of Sunderland won't then be regretting things if the new Qashqai finds a home in France...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 3, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



  The plane has landed and the new one is not scheduled until 2019 and I did say it would have wings, seats and an engine.   No one needs to jump out but if you feel like trying it as an option then the worlds your oyster.
		
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My point is that the EU will not stop for us to decide what to do - it will keep moving.  

The ECJ will be delivering rulings that will be changing EU legislation as our EU exit progresses and after the Great Repeal Act of 2017 (btw - please dear PM scrap that silly moniker you have given it) is passed and enacted.  And so the EU legislation that will be enshrined in UK law by GRA17 (as is going to happen) - but then controlled by the UK gov - will become out of date as we decide what to do with each and every bit of it - and then must decide whether to update it in accordance with what the ECJ determines for the single market.  However since we n ow know that Westminster is not going to be subordinate to the ECJ, then it would appear that we will not align with the EU legislation as required to be part of the single market.  

Seems a hard exit is on the way, no matter - that's what we want that's what we'll get.

I'm OK with that


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My point is that the EU will not stop for us to decide what to do - it will keep moving.  

The ECJ will be delivering rulings that will be changing EU legislation as our EU exit progresses and after the Great Repeal Act of 2017 (btw - please dear PM scrap that silly moniker you have given it) is passed and enacted.  And so the EU legislation that will be enshrined in UK law by GRA17 (as is going to happen) - but then controlled by the UK gov - will become out of date as we decide what to do with each and every bit of it - and then must decide whether to update it in accordance with what the ECJ determines for the single market.  However since we n ow know that Westminster is not going to be subordinate to the ECJ, then it would appear that we will not align with the EU legislation as required to be part of the single market.  

Seems a hard exit is on the way, no matter - that's what we want that's what we'll get.

I'm OK with that
		
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What we have to realise is that the EU itself is in a mess. 

There is growing dissatisfaction with the institution in a number of the longer established members. Discontent over immigration in a number of the newer members in the East of Europe, who feel that they are the gateway. A fear of creeping federalisation among many. A loss of a net contributor in the UK.

I really think that we would have been better served by voting Remain but we should not kid ourselves that the EU hold all the trump cards or that everything is rosy in that particular garden.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 3, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			What we have to realise is that the EU itself is in a mess. 

There is growing dissatisfaction with the institution in a number of the longer established members. Discontent over immigration in a number of the newer members in the East of Europe, who feel that they are the gateway. A fear of creeping federalisation among many. A loss of a net contributor in the UK.

I really think that we would have been better served by voting Remain but we should not kid ourselves that the EU hold all the trump cards or that everything is rosy in that particular garden.
		
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I'm OK with that case.  

I can't but not have the two areas of concern that I have.  

That it doesn't work that great - and my children suffer.  But they are fortunate as they have us to fall back on for the coming 40yrs (I hope) - but many the children of the less well off and poor do not have that life jacket.  

Secondly - with closed borders - that immigrants EU and nonEU - and both those that are current residents and those that might be able to comer in the future - are not assimilated into our society as well as they (generally) have over the last 50yrs.  And that for a minority of the 'indigenous' population (however that is defined in the future) the simple fact of 'another' being an immigrant or clearly of 'immigrant stock/background', their very presence in the UK will bring on suspicion and resentment - and a more fractured, angry and selfish society will develop.

I hope neither of the above come to pass.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm OK with that case.  

I can't but not have the two areas of concern that I have.  

That it doesn't work that great - and my children suffer.  But they are fortunate as they have us to fall back on for the coming 40yrs (I hope) - but many the children of the less well off and poor do not have that life jacket.  

Secondly - with closed borders - that immigrants EU and nonEU - and both those that are current residents and those that might be able to comer in the future - are not assimilated into our society as well as they (generally) have over the last 50yrs.  And that for a minority of the 'indigenous' population (however that is defined in the future) the simple fact of 'another' being an immigrant or clearly of 'immigrant stock/background', their very presence in the UK will bring on suspicion and resentment - and a more fractured, angry and selfish society will develop.

I hope neither of the above come to pass.
		
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I share your hopes and concerns for the future, after all I have grandchildren as well as children to consider.

However, I suggest that they are unlikely to be faced with anything worse than we did in the 70's with rampant inflation peaking at 24% and soaring unemployment.

I am not suggesting that there will not be difficulties but I remain confident that as a nation we will overcome them.

As for the situation surrounding immigrants I fear that there is a problem there of our own making. For years people's concerns, whether they were justified or not, were not addressed by any of our major political parties for fear of being viewed as racist. Without living in one of the areas where immigration levels are high it is hard to assess how much assimilation there has been.

In my home city of Birmingham there are districts that, superficially at least, have become "ghettoised" and thus integration does not seem to have been achieved.

I may be idealistic but I feel that if we are to avoid the growth in xenophobia and hate you fear then we must, as a society, engage in a grown-up and open debate on immigration to enable the fears of some to be addressed.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 3, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My point is that the EU will not stop for us to decide what to do - it will keep moving.  

The ECJ will be delivering rulings that will be changing EU legislation as our EU exit progresses and after the Great Repeal Act of 2017 (btw - please dear PM scrap that silly moniker you have given it) is passed and enacted.  And so the EU legislation that will be enshrined in UK law by GRA17 (as is going to happen) - but then controlled by the UK gov - will become out of date as we decide what to do with each and every bit of it - and then must decide whether to update it in accordance with what the ECJ determines for the single market.  However since we n ow know that Westminster is not going to be subordinate to the ECJ, then it would appear that we will not align with the EU legislation as required to be part of the single market.  

Seems a hard exit is on the way, no matter - that's what we want that's what we'll get.

I'm OK with that
		
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You worry too much about these things.   How do you think all these other countries that are not members trade with the EU?   They don't have all these laws to consider.

You talk about the EU moving on and not waiting for us.  Why should we want them to wait for us when we become an independent country, we will be moving on all by our selves and without restrictions.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You worry too much about these things.   How do you think all these other countries that are not members trade with the EU?   They don't have all these laws to consider.

You talk about the EU moving on and not waiting for us.  Why should we want them to wait for us when we become an independent country, we will be moving on all by our selves and without restrictions.
		
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That's alright then - so all that talk of countries paying to be part of the single market; to have to adopt EU standards and legislation to trade with it; to have to accept free movement to be part of it - none of that is true - or I was not listening or too prejudiced to hear.

Fair enough.  Gonna be a piece of cake sorting out our trade agreements in that case.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 4, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That's alright then - so all that talk of countries paying to be part of the single market; to have to adopt EU standards and legislation to trade with it; to have to accept free movement to be part of it - none of that is true - or I was not listening or too prejudiced to hear.

Fair enough.  Gonna be a piece of cake sorting out our trade agreements in that case.
		
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All those countries?  Do you mean Norway? 

You currently only pay and accept free movement if you want to be a member of the single market, most of the world are not members of the single market but still trade with the EU successfully.

You or I dont know  what the final position will be after negotiations at this time so we will have to wait and see how they transpire.   The UK is not Norway and hold a number of aces that will put them in a strong position to reach a mutually beneficial agreement.


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## Foxholer (Oct 4, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			All those countries?  Do you mean Norway? 
...
		
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Not just Norway!

@SILH There is no need to 'adopt EU laws' merely to trade with it! It does, however, make a lot of sense to either adopt (or exceed) EU standards in order to do so! I believe access to The Single Market *requires* EU Standards.


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## hors limite (Oct 4, 2016)

Totally different tack.
Just can't believe the trio tasked with getting a good deal. Dr Fox just doesn't have the faintest whiff of someone who can get anything done, not least, take responsibility  for such an enormously difficult endeavour. Davies is just such a fan of Davies with only a reputation for being a back bench troublemaker. Don't get me started on Boris.
As PM wouldn't you want at least one highly competent " remainer" on the team if only to have someone to take the much needed conciliatory negotiating line.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 4, 2016)

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...-forced-clarify-liam-fox-comments-post-brexit



What a charming chappy.

Hope the people who voted for him are taking notice.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 4, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...-forced-clarify-liam-fox-comments-post-brexit



What a charming chappy.

Hope the people who voted for him are taking notice.
		
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Have you linked to the right article? Hardly offensive or "charming"?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 4, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...-forced-clarify-liam-fox-comments-post-brexit



What a charming chappy.

Hope the people who voted for him are taking notice.
		
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Please explain what the problem is?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 4, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Have you linked to the right article? Hardly offensive or "charming"?
		
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It's not just me then!


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## harpo_72 (Oct 4, 2016)

Did you not mean this article ? 
https://www.politicshome.com/news/e...avis-pro-remain-ministers-will-share-blame-if


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## vkurup (Oct 4, 2016)

Reading about the ideas on how we are going to reduce non EU migration... more lipstick on a pig as we try to pull up the drawbridge and in the process also stop access to top talent and the cream of the crop that would like to join our universities. 

Again more rah-rah and nothing concrete. Also none of the things are unexpected from someone who was in charge of home office in the past and tried to do all this before 

BTW neither am I a pro-migration or Xenophobic


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## SocketRocket (Oct 5, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Reading about the ideas on how we are going to reduce non EU migration... more lipstick on a pig as we try to pull up the drawbridge and in the process also stop access to top talent and the cream of the crop that would like to join our universities. 

Again more rah-rah and nothing concrete. Also none of the things are unexpected from someone who was in charge of home office in the past and tried to do all this before 

BTW neither am I a pro-migration or Xenophobic
		
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Just blinkered.   You're worse than me.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 5, 2016)

Yes.....sorry about that. If you page down it was the one about 'using'  EU citizens in the UK as a bargaining point


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 5, 2016)

So your opinion is that he should allow EU citizens to stay in the UK without getting any kind of guarantee that UK citizens living in the EU will be allowed to stay where they are?


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 5, 2016)

The people of the UK voted to leave the EU without giving British workers in the EU a second thought.

Now I see that Rudd is calling for a register of UK foreign workers. 
I can remember another country doing that, it did not end well.


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## jp5 (Oct 5, 2016)

Absolutely disgusting news coming out of the Tory conference.

Plenty of Leave voters wouldn't have voted for this, but they have enabled it nevertheless.


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## vkurup (Oct 5, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Just blinkered.   You're worse than me.  

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Thanks for the certification.. i am honored to be standing below you on this tree of humanity..

... remember whenever those on the branches below look up, they only see one thing....   <insert customary smiley  >


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## SocketRocket (Oct 5, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Thanks for the certification.. i am honored to be standing below you on this tree of humanity..

... remember whenever those on the branches below look up, they only see one thing....   <insert customary smiley  >
		
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And people below you only receive one thing and you are welcome to it.  I hope you inserted the smiley where the sun dont shine.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 5, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The people of the UK voted to leave the EU without giving British workers in the EU a second thought.

Now I see that Rudd is calling for a register of UK foreign workers. 
I can remember another country doing that, it did not end well.
		
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Another crock of gold from you.   People voting were not doing it to better the lot of people in the EU, do you think they give a toss about us.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 5, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Absolutely disgusting news coming out of the Tory conference.

Plenty of Leave voters wouldn't have voted for this, but they have enabled it nevertheless.
		
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It sounded pretty good to me.   What exactly did you find disgusting?


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 5, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Absolutely disgusting news coming out of the Tory conference.

Plenty of Leave voters wouldn't have voted for this, but they have enabled it nevertheless.
		
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Indeed, UKIP are in charge.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/05/the-tories-have-finally-become-ukip


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 5, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Another crock of gold from you.   People voting were not doing it to better the lot of people in the EU, do you think they give a toss about us.
		
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I would imagine most were too dim to even be aware of the impact their vote would have on the British EU workers and implications on such organisations as the NHS.

I see Rudd has already backed down on her 'list of foreigners' idea.
I am starting to become seriously embarrassed and a bit scared of our current Westminster political leaders.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 5, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I would imagine most were too dim to even be aware of the impact their vote would have on the British EU workers and implications on such organisations as the NHS.

I see Rudd has already backed down on her 'list of foreigners' idea.
I am starting to become seriously embarrassed and a bit scared of our current Westminster political leaders.
		
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Except, if you read her speech there never was a "list of foreigners" idea. That is the spin placed by certain journalists upon a suggestion that employers could be asked to reveal what proportion of their workforce was from overseas. Those figures would then help Government to see if sufficient training opportunities were being offered to British workers.

At this stage it is a consultation process, nothing more.

I appreciate that may not fit with your anti-Government agenda but those would appear to be the facts.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 5, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes.....sorry about that. If you page down it was the one about 'using'  EU citizens in the UK as a bargaining point
		
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ColchesterFC said:



			So your opinion is that he should allow EU citizens to stay in the UK without getting any kind of guarantee that UK citizens living in the EU will be allowed to stay where they are?
		
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Doon frae Troon said:



			The people of the UK voted to leave the EU without giving British workers in the EU a second thought.
		
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I see that you are continuing with your customary behaviour of refusing to or failing to answer questions that have been asked of you so I'll try again. 

Do you think that the government should say that all EU citizens living and working in the UK will be allowed to stay here without getting assurances from the EU that the same will apply to UK citizens living in the EU? 

A simple yes or no would be fine.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 5, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I would imagine most were too dim to even be aware of the impact their vote would have on the British EU workers and implications on such organisations as the NHS.
		
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Good to see that those that voted Remain are still throwing insults at those that voted Leave. Seems as though to in the eyes of Remain voters you were either racist or stupid if you voted Leave.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 5, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Indeed, UKIP are in charge.

http://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/10/05/the-tories-have-finally-become-ukip

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That article is so biased and vitriolic it beggars belief that any reasonable minded person would give it any credence.   That of course rules out many of the Remainers on here.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 5, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Good to see that those that voted Remain are still throwing insults at those that voted Leave. Seems as though to in the eyes of Remain voters you were either racist or stupid if you voted Leave.
		
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Not necessarily, I not only voted Remain but was also active in support of the campaign.

However, unlike some I can accept that the result went the other way and, thus, as a nation we must now do all in our power to ensure that Brexit is achieved in a manner beneficial to our country.

I certainly do not think that those who voted Leave, whilst I may disagree with them, are either racist or stupid.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 5, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I would imagine most were too dim to even be aware of the impact their vote would have on the British EU workers and implications on such organisations as the NHS.

I see Rudd has already backed down on her 'list of foreigners' idea.
I am starting to become seriously embarrassed and a bit scared of our current Westminster political leaders.
		
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 Sounds like you are too dim to read or even understand what is actually said rather than the spin coming out of the mouths of bitter losers.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 5, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Not necessarily, I not only voted Remain but was also active in support of the campaign.

However, unlike some I can accept that the result went the other way and, thus, as a nation we must now do all in our power to ensure that Brexit is achieved in a manner beneficial to our country.

I certainly do not think that those who voted Leave, whilst I may disagree with them, are either racist or stupid.
		
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Apologies. I should have said "*MANY *of those that voted Remain" rather than imply it was all of them. Can I be forgiven and blame it on brandy consumption please.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 5, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Apologies. I should have said "*MANY *of those that voted Remain" rather than imply it was all of them. Can I be forgiven and blame it on brandy consumption please. 

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Just so long as it is a Grande Vieux Armagnac!


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 5, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Just so long as it is a Grande Vieux Armagnac!

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Absolutely. Wouldn't drink anything else. It's definitely not a bottle of Tesco's finest Napoleon brandy aged 3 years mixed with diet coke.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 5, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I see that you are continuing with your customary behaviour of refusing to or failing to answer questions that have been asked of you so I'll try again. 

Do you think that the government should say that all EU citizens living and working in the UK will be allowed to stay here without getting assurances from the EU that the same will apply to UK citizens living in the EU? 

A simple yes or no would be fine.
		
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Yes.
It was The UK who decided to leave the EU.
Some European workers have been working in the UK for many years. They have married and brought up their children in the UK.
Do you think that the UK should just throw them out and split up their families?
A simple yes or no will suffice for an answer.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 5, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Absolutely. Wouldn't drink anything else. It's definitely not a bottle of Tesco's finest Napoleon brandy aged 3 years mixed with diet coke.
		
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To each their own!

But why *diet *&#8203;coke? What's the point?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 5, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes.
It was The UK who decided to leave the EU.
Some European workers have been working in the UK for many years. They have married and brought up their children in the UK.
Do you think that the UK should just throw them out and split up their families?
A simple yes or no will suffice for an answer.
		
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Has anyone suggested they should be? No, not even Liam Fox.

However, assurances of future rights are required on both sides.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 5, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes.
It was The UK who decided to leave the EU.
Some European workers have been working in the UK for many years. They have married and brought up their children in the UK.
Do you think that the UK should just throw them out and split up their families?
A simple yes or no will suffice for an answer.
		
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No. And I've never suggested they should. But why should the government just accept that the approx 2.9 million EU citizens living here can stay without seeking similar assurances about the approx 1.2 million UK citizens living in the EU?


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 5, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			To each their own!

But why *diet *&#8203;coke? What's the point?
		
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Always used to be full fat coke but I prefer the taste now. I swapped to it a few years ago when I was trying to lose a bit of weight and have stuck with it ever since.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 5, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			So your opinion is that he should allow EU citizens to stay in the UK without getting any kind of guarantee that UK citizens living in the EU will be allowed to stay where they are?
		
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Just on this - there is no reason why would could not if we claim to be a compassionate country - and in control of our own matters.  I thought Leaving brought being in control and that means being able to choose to do something independent of whether someone else does or doesn't do something.  

And what do we do if the EU countries choose to hoof out all UK citizens - are we going to hoof out all non-UK EU citizens - which would cause all our public services as well as much of the service sector to collapse,  of course not.  We can very easily guarantee right of residence for all existing non-UK EU residents if we choose - because we know it is the right, proper and decent thing to do - and because we depend upon them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 5, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I see that you are continuing with your customary behaviour of refusing to or failing to answer questions that have been asked of you so I'll try again. 

Do you think that the government should say that all EU citizens living and working in the UK will be allowed to stay here without getting assurances from the EU that the same will apply to UK citizens living in the EU? 

A simple yes or no would be fine.
		
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Yes


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 5, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Not necessarily, I not only voted Remain but was also active in support of the campaign.

However, unlike some I can accept that the result went the other way and, thus, as a nation we must now do all in our power to ensure that Brexit is achieved in a manner beneficial to our country.

I certainly do not think that those who voted Leave, whilst I may disagree with them, are either racist or stupid.
		
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...and a lot of the insult throwing is actually coming from the Leave campaign.  Though I was and am strongly against leaving - leaving is what's going to happen so we must make the very best of it.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 5, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just on this - there is no reason why would could not if we claim to be a compassionate country - and in control of our own matters.  I thought Leaving brought being in control and that means being able to choose to do something independent of whether someone else does or doesn't do something.  

And what do we do if the EU countries choose to hoof out all UK citizens - are we going to hoof out all non-UK EU citizens - which would cause all our public services as well as much of the service sector to collapse,  of course not.  We can very easily guarantee right of residence for all existing non-UK EU residents if we choose - because we know it is the right, proper and decent thing to do - and because we depend upon them.
		
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Idealistic, romantic, gullible or naive. You choose.

And no our public services would not collapse, they are more dependant upon non-EU immigrants.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 5, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Idealistic, romantic, gullible or naive. You choose.

And no our public services would not collapse, they are more dependant upon non-EU immigrants.
		
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The immigrants are here - we are not talking about new immigrants.  There is therefore no reason for them not to stay and to continue to live and work here as they are currently doing.  What impact would their staying cause?  And if the basis of leave wasn't an 'ideal' - that of control and sovereignty - I don't really know what it was about.  Despite what you assert I do not believe we could possibly expel all EU immigrants without doing huge damage to public services - and the service sector in general.  

But in the end it comes down to whether or not the UK government sees the lives and wellbeing of people as a political bargaining chip.  I find that rather distasteful at best.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 5, 2016)

So what happens if we agree to let all EU citizens living here, before an arbitrary date, stay here and then the EU chooses to expel all the UK citizens living in the EU meaning they have to return to the UK? Where exactly are we meant to house more than 1 million people that would be returning to the UK at the same time?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 5, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The immigrants are here - we are not talking about new immigrants.  There is therefore no reason for them not to stay and to continue to live and work here as they are currently doing.  What impact would their staying cause?  And if the basis of leave wasn't an 'ideal' - that of control and sovereignty - I don't really know what it was about.  Despite what you assert I do not believe we could possibly expel all EU immigrants without doing huge damage to public services - and the service sector in general.  

But in the end it comes down to whether or not the UK government sees the lives and wellbeing of people as a political bargaining chip.  I find that rather distasteful at best.
		
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As yet no one has said that these people's futures would be used as a specific bargaining tool.

All Fox has stated that, at this stage, nothing is ruled in or out. The only politicians I have, to date, seen trying to force issues have been the French President and some Germans.

As for the future of public services we can both only speculate.


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## GG26 (Oct 5, 2016)

I attended a business event this evening at which a panel of an accountant, lawyer and member of the local chamber of commerce gave their thoughts on Brexit.  Some interesting points made.  

Apparently, in the three months to September UK exports increased significantly contrary to expectations.  Clearly part of this is down to the weakness of the pound, but certainly does not indicate that others are not willing to trade with the UK.  One point put forward was that many countries outside of the EU do not like the institution and being outside may increase trading opportunities for the UK.  The UK was shortly to become the largest economy in the EU, overtaking Germany, and because of our net contributions to it we are in a strong negotiating position regarding exit terms. 

Going back to the vote, I voted leave.  The reason?  Gordon Brown signing the Lisbon Treaty in 2007 without giving us a referendum.  We had been promised a referendum in the Labour party manifesto for any changes in the EU Constitution.  Because of reverses in referendums in France and Holland they changed it from a change in the constitution to a Treaty which effectively had the same changes.  Knowing full well that the country would not ratify it (Ireland voted no until forced to vote again after getting some concessions), Gordon Brown argued that the manifesto said a referendum would be held on changes to the Constitution, but not on a new Treaty.  Basically just playing on semantics.  From that date it was clear to me that the EU was wholly undemocratic and our government couldn't be trusted to deliver its promises on it either.


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## vkurup (Oct 5, 2016)

Watching the news which reported that Sir J Fraser Stoddart using his acceptance speech to raise the threat of Brexit and negative effect of raising the drawbridge on Science in this country. But what would he know he is yet another Brit living a comfortable life in the US and just been awarded the Nobel prize in Chemistry.. Bloody BBC still spreading negativity and talking us down.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 6, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes
		
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What a one sided Anti British reply.  Unbelievable!


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 6, 2016)

Some serious doom and gloom in the latest report from Fraser of allander.... 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...cotland-post-brexit-warn-economists-1-4250294


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## SocketRocket (Oct 6, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Some serious doom and gloom in the latest report from Fraser of allander.... 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...cotland-post-brexit-warn-economists-1-4250294

Click to expand...

Not exactly an independent report is it?   Here are a few contrary opinions.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...w-trade-deals-could-cost-scotland-80000-jobs/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...exit-warnings-as-uk-poised-to-become-fastest/


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 6, 2016)

Are you aware of the reputation of the authors. I doubt it.

I also recall the total lies that the Telegraph posted for four days on Nicola Sturgeon and the French ambassador. [that you fell for like a well hooked salmon.]


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## SocketRocket (Oct 6, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Are you aware of the reputation of the authors. I doubt it.

I also recall the total lies that the Telegraph posted for four days on Nicola Sturgeon and the French ambassador. [that you fell for like a well hooked salmon.]
		
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He's in Krankies pocket and totally biased in his views.  His assumptions make no account of the UK opening up further trade in the World.    Just read some of the comments at the end for some more enlightened opinions.

Maybe I could get a better understanding by reading your unbiased 'Wings Over Scotland' :rofl:


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 6, 2016)

I've been in Ireland over the past few days and just about every person I spoke to said 'why the feck did you leave the EU'.  They find it all very baffling.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 6, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			He's in Krankies pocket and totally biased in his views.  His assumptions make no account of the UK opening up further trade in the World.    Just read some of the comments at the end for some more enlightened opinions.

Maybe I could get a better understanding by reading your unbiased 'Wings Over Scotland' :rofl:
		
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Name calling when you are caught out........you are so predictable.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 6, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I've been in Ireland over the past few days and just about every person I spoke to said 'why the feck did you leave the EU'.  They find it all very baffling.
		
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Getting back more than you pay in will be an influence on their view.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 6, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Are you aware of the reputation of the authors. I doubt it.

I also recall the total lies that the Telegraph posted for four days on Nicola Sturgeon and the French ambassador.* [that you fell for like a well hooked salmon.]*

Click to expand...




Doon frae Troon said:



			Name calling when you are caught out........you are so predictable.
		
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You really take the biscuit!  You posted the above and accuse me of name calling


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 6, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I've been in Ireland over the past few days and just about every person I spoke to said 'why the feck did you leave the EU'.  They find it all very baffling.
		
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Not exactly surprising in view of the level of EU funding that country has received.


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## vkurup (Oct 7, 2016)

interesting radio show>> 
Discussing Home Secretary Amber Rudd's push to make firms list foreign workers, James O'Brien's startling point will stop you in your tracks
http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-amber-rudds-speech-echoes-mein-kampf/ 

views are that of the presenter, i m the messenger (but dont let that stop anyone from shooting me)


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## SocketRocket (Oct 7, 2016)

vkurup said:



			interesting radio show>> 
Discussing Home Secretary Amber Rudd's push to make firms list foreign workers, James O'Brien's startling point will stop you in your tracks
http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-amber-rudds-speech-echoes-mein-kampf/ 

views are that of the presenter, i m the messenger (but dont let that stop anyone from shooting me)
		
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You felt the need to post so without any other comment we can only take it that you support the view.    Do you support it?


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You felt the need to post so without any other comment we can only take it that you support the view.    Do you support it?
		
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I support it. It's a shocking and disgraceful view from the Home Sec


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## SocketRocket (Oct 7, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			I support it. It's a shocking and disgraceful view from the Home Sec
		
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So you make a comparison between her and Hitler?


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 7, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So you make a comparison between her and Hitler?
		
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I make a comparison between the phrases she used, and similar phrases in mein kampf.


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## chippa1909 (Oct 7, 2016)

A brief musical interlude..(contains bad words, so if you're sensitive, don't watch)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mVy7faNKEtM


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 8, 2016)

Going worldwide to shame Rudd and her shameful Tory comments.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...d-hashtag-to-hit-back-at-xenophobia-1-4252211


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			What a one sided Anti British reply.  Unbelievable!
		
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Honestly - you are surely having a laugh...

Just for a start the @ColchesterFC post that I replied to concluded with the words

_A simple yes or no would be fine._

And so I answered - Yes.

What in Gods name is 'one-sided' or 'anti-British' about that?

If sovereignty is the great desired of Leave then that means the UK can make it's own decisions without having to take into account the actions of others.  There is absolutely no reason whatsoever and no imperative that demands or requires the UK government to expel 3million immigrants working and settled in the UK.  And frankly to think of that that being a reasonable thing to do, in whatever circumstances, is itself totally unbelievable and appalling.    

I can only think of one similar event - that of 1972 - when Idi Amin ethnically-cleansed Asians from his country.  I can recall UK politicians of all shades being appalled at such an act; an inhumane act of a mad tyrant - as were the media and the UK populace appalled and then welcoming to 27,500 expelled Ugandan Asians.

And yet some in the government - and it would appear in the general electorate - seem think that a mass expulsion is OK - on purely political grounds.  Not economic, not social, not cultural - but political.  I hope it is simply because there is nothing yet thought through in the pipeline to offer for the control immigration and so it is flung out there to keep the Leavers happy.  

Even to propose that the workplace identifies all those employees who are not of British 'stock' stinks.  These are not the actions and thinking of the government of a country I would be proud to call my own.  And for that I am called 'anti-British' - though it appears that this is the sort of accusation and name-calling that is going to be chucked at anyone who does not buy into Brexit-patriotism rot.


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## Hobbit (Oct 8, 2016)

vkurup said:



			interesting radio show>> 
Discussing Home Secretary Amber Rudd's push to make firms list foreign workers, James O'Brien's startling point will stop you in your tracks
http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/james-amber-rudds-speech-echoes-mein-kampf/ 

views are that of the presenter, i m the messenger (but dont let that stop anyone from shooting me)
		
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CheltenhamHacker said:



			I support it. It's a shocking and disgraceful view from the Home Sec
		
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Firms already jump through hoops with the Home Office for non-EU workers. And the Home Office contact the firm when the visa is due to expire. I presume that means there's already a list.


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## the smiling assassin (Oct 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Another crock of gold from you.   People voting were not doing it to better the lot of people in the EU, do you think they give a toss about us.
		
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Sometimes I genuinely despair at the rhetoric spat out on this type of thread. It makes me ashamed to be British to think that this type of attitude has 'won'.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 8, 2016)

Interesting that the Tory Government are targeting foreign workers.
What about foreign business owners.
I always thought that everyone was a worker no matter what position they hold in the company/business.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 8, 2016)

the smiling assassin said:



			Sometimes I genuinely despair at the rhetoric spat out on this type of thread. It makes me ashamed to be British to think that this type of attitude has 'won'.
		
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I see, any view contrary to your own is rhetoric and any that conforms is acceptable.  Also, to consider democratic decisions as 'Win' or 'Lose' is rather narrow thinking.

In my spat out opinion of course.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Honestly - you are surely having a laugh...

Just for a start the @ColchesterFC post that I replied to concluded with the words

_A simple yes or no would be fine._

And so I answered - Yes.

What in Gods name is 'one-sided' or 'anti-British' about that?

If sovereignty is the great desired of Leave then that means the UK can make it's own decisions without having to take into account the actions of others.  There is absolutely no reason whatsoever and no imperative that demands or requires the UK government to expel 3million immigrants working and settled in the UK.  And frankly to think of that that being a reasonable thing to do, in whatever circumstances, is itself totally unbelievable and appalling.    

I can only think of one similar event - that of 1972 - when Idi Amin ethnically-cleansed Asians from his country.  I can recall UK politicians of all shades being appalled at such an act; an inhumane act of a mad tyrant - as were the media and the UK populace appalled and then welcoming to 27,500 expelled Ugandan Asians.

And yet some in the government - and it would appear in the general electorate - seem think that a mass expulsion is OK - on purely political grounds.  Not economic, not social, not cultural - but political.  I hope it is simply because there is nothing yet thought through in the pipeline to offer for the control immigration and so it is flung out there to keep the Leavers happy.  

Even to propose that the workplace identifies all those employees who are not of British 'stock' stinks.  These are not the actions and thinking of the government of a country I would be proud to call my own.  And for that I am called 'anti-British' - though it appears that this is the sort of accusation and name-calling that is going to be chucked at anyone who does not buy into Brexit-patriotism rot.
		
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Your post is typical of the way you think.   So the Government wants to carry out the wishes of a majority of people in this country who would like better controls on immigration and the effects it has on jobs and wages for British people, they also want to ensure British Employers are doing their best to supply training and support to people in the country so that they have opportunities to better their lives.   Having a clear picture of how many employees are foreign has to be necessary before considering how to plan policy.

You and a number of other posters who appear to see the worst in anything the Government do have taken this as the starting pistol to  throw millions of people out of the country, some are even making comparisons with Hitler and the Nazis.   It's just stupid/deceitful trouble making to suggest this and anyone doing it should be ashamed of themselves.

Here is another question that you can answer Yes or No to.  Do you honestly believe that the Government is planning to unilaterally expel millions of Foreign Workers from the UK?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Your post is typical of the way you think.   So the Government wants to carry out the wishes of a majority of people in this country who would like better controls on immigration and the effects it has on jobs and wages for British people, they also want to ensure British Employers are doing their best to supply training and support to people in the country so that they have opportunities to better their lives.   Having a clear picture of how many employees are foreign has to be necessary before considering how to plan policy.

You and a number of other posters who appear to see the worst in anything the Government do have taken this as the starting pistol to  throw millions of people out of the country, some are even making comparisons with Hitler and the Nazis.   It's just stupid/deceitful trouble making to suggest this and anyone doing it should be ashamed of themselves.

Here is another question that you can answer Yes or No to.  Do you honestly believe that the Government is planning to unilaterally expel millions of Foreign Workers from the UK?
		
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I desperately hope that they are not serious.

But by raising it and non-UK immigrant registration as possibility and then using the residency status of 3million people up in the air as a bargaining chip is abhorrent. Those who wanted to Leave have brought this upon themselves. Those immigrants here legally and building there lives here are blameless - yet some find it OK to have this 'threat' hanging over them.  I am shocked - but not surprised in this post-Brexit era - that intelligent people can think the mere possibility of such things happening to be reasonable.  

So *@SR *- tell me that you would absolutely encourage the government to 100% guarantee the residency of all non-UK immigrant residents of the UK - no ifs - no buts.  We have instigated this mess - if EU countries choose to kick out UK nationals for whatever reason, or large numbers of UK national choose to return home - then it is our responsibility to accommodate them back in the UK.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 8, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I desperately hope that they are not serious.

But by raising it and non-UK immigrant registration as possibility and then using the residency status of 3million people up in the air as a bargaining chip is abhorrent. Those who wanted to Leave have brought this upon themselves. Those immigrants here legally and building there lives here are blameless - yet some find it OK to have this 'threat' hanging over them.  I am shocked - but not surprised in this post-Brexit era - that intelligent people can think the mere possibility of such things happening to be reasonable.  

So *@SR *- tell me that you would absolutely encourage the government to 100% guarantee the residency of all non-UK immigrant residents of the UK - no ifs - no buts.  We have instigated this mess - if EU countries choose to kick out UK nationals for whatever reason, or large numbers of UK national choose to return home - then it is our responsibility to accommodate them back in the UK.
		
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Your one sided attitude to this mater reflects your blinkered and unreasonable view to anything this Government does.   Any reasonable minded person would understand the view that EU Nationals living in the UK will be able to retain their right to residence on the basis that UK Citizens living in the EU would be given the same guarantees.   Using your reasoning it must be OK to kick them out as it's the responsibility of their Homeland to accomodate them back.

What an Unbelievably biased attitude  you have.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Your one sided attitude to this mater reflects your blinkered and unreasonable view to anything this Government does.   Any reasonable minded person would understand the view that EU Nationals living in the UK will be able to retain their right to residence on the basis that UK Citizens living in the EU would be given the same guarantees.   Using your reasoning it must be OK to kick them out as it's the responsibility of their Homeland to accomodate them back.

What an Unbelievably biased attitude  you have.
		
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You seem to have air brushed this government's attitude via Rudd's comments at the Tory party conference out of your equation.
As of this moment I have not heard an EU politician say they would return UK EU workers. [Le Penn probably has though!]


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## SocketRocket (Oct 8, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You seem to have air brushed this government's attitude via Rudd's comments at the Tory party conference out of your equation.
As of this moment I have not heard an EU politician say they would return UK EU workers. [Le Penn probably has though!]
		
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And you seem to have airbrushed what Rudd and this Government have actually said.  No where have they suggested sending back millions of EU citizens, that only takes place in your and some others here's biased and blinkered minds.  Shame on you.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 8, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Your one sided attitude to this mater reflects your blinkered and unreasonable view to anything this Government does.   Any reasonable minded person would understand the view that EU Nationals living in the UK will be able to retain their right to residence on the basis that UK Citizens living in the EU would be given the same guarantees.   Using your reasoning it must be OK to kick them out as it's the responsibility of their Homeland to accomodate them back.

What an Unbelievably biased attitude  you have.
		
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It's not just me - do you actually read anything of what the political and news commentators say.  Or read the likes of the Daily Telegraph - which today reported on it's front page that, come exit from EU after the 2yrs period following Art50, 80% of EU immigrants in the UK will have legal right to remain and cannot legally be thrown out of the UK - and it reports that the other 20% (800,000) at that point will be given an amnesty and allowed to stay.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Your post is typical of the way you think.   So the Government wants to carry out the wishes of a majority of people in this country who would like better controls on immigration and the effects it has on jobs and wages for British people, they also want to ensure British Employers are doing their best to supply training and support to people in the country so that they have opportunities to better their lives.   Having a clear picture of how many employees are foreign has to be necessary before considering how to plan policy.

You and a number of other posters who appear to see the worst in anything the Government do have taken this as the starting pistol to  throw millions of people out of the country, some are even making comparisons with Hitler and the Nazis.   It's just stupid/deceitful trouble making to suggest this and anyone doing it should be ashamed of themselves.

Here is another question that you can answer Yes or No to.  Do you honestly believe that the Government is planning to unilaterally expel millions of Foreign Workers from the UK?
		
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Can you compare th Home Sec's speech with Mein Kampf and say they are completely and wildly different, with no common phraseology?


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## PieMan (Oct 9, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Can you compare th Home Sec's speech with Mein Kampf and say they are completely and wildly different, with no common phraseology?
		
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Wow the Home Sec delivered her conference speech in German? That's very impressive - I struggled with German at school!!


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 9, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's not just me - do you actually read anything of what the political and news commentators say.  Or read the likes of the Daily Telegraph - which today reported on it's front page that, come exit from EU after the 2yrs period following Art50, 80% of EU immigrants in the UK will have legal right to remain and cannot legally be thrown out of the UK - and it reports that the other 20% (800,000) at that point will be given an amnesty and allowed to stay.
		
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So what is the problem then? If 80% will be legally allowed to stay and the other 20% will be given an amnesty and allowed to stay why are you and others getting you knickers in a twist about the nasty Tory party throwing them out if it's not true?


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## PieMan (Oct 9, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			So what is the problem then? If 80% will be legally allowed to stay and the other 20% will be given an amnesty and allowed to stay why are you and others getting you knickers in a twist about the nasty Tory party throwing them out if it's not true?
		
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Seems sensible to me! Surely if any non-UK citizens are working here legally, paying taxes and contributing to the country's coffers, then they should be allowed to stay......if they want to of course. Cannot see any problem with an immigration policy that welcomes skilled labour where it is needed.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 9, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's not just me - do you actually read anything of what the political and news commentators say.  Or read the likes of the Daily Telegraph - which today reported on it's front page that, come exit from EU after the 2yrs period following Art50, 80% of EU immigrants in the UK will have legal right to remain and cannot legally be thrown out of the UK - and it reports that the other 20% (800,000) at that point will be given an amnesty and allowed to stay.
		
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So whats wrong with that, the Government is allowing them to stay.   They are not considering throwing them all out or creating a 'Final Solution' as some of you are indicating.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 9, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			So what is the problem then? If 80% will be legally allowed to stay and the other 20% will be given an amnesty and allowed to stay why are you and others getting you knickers in a twist about the nasty Tory party throwing them out if it's not true?
		
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Because we all know that they are desperately grasping for the UKIP votes ........only the law and worldwide condemnation is stopping them.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 9, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Because we all know that they are desperately grasping for the UKIP votes ........only the law and worldwide condemnation is stopping them.
		
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Based upon the GE last year and the EU Referendum it would appear that Corbyn has, at least, as much if not more to worry about as far as voters drifting to UKIP.

Many of those Conservative voters who moved may now return feeling it is "mission accomplished" following the vote to leave. I am not certain the Labour deserters will be so willing as that party seems reluctant to admit that they have suffered from voters switching to UKIP.

The latter may now be seen by some as pointless but that does not guarantee return to the traditional parties.

As for  the issue of foreign workers I cannot see where it has ever been suggested that lists or repatriation were to become Government policy, they were discussion points and these will often extend to include a wide range of opinion.

Neither can I see the so called similarity between the utterances of May and Rudd and the contents of Mein Kampf.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So whats wrong with that, the Government is allowing them to stay.   They are not considering throwing them all out or creating a 'Final Solution' as some of you are indicating.
		
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Because the likes of Liam Fox are indicating that a guarantee *cannot *be given - that residency of existing migrants is a bargaining chip that we cannot 'give away'.  

And all this does is raise expectations in many _Leavers _that there is a possibility that all existing non-UK EU-nationals living in the UK could be told to leave; and wouldn't that make things oh so much better.  And when it doesn't happen - as it won't - there will be huge resentments to all of those who thought it might come about - and who, for instance, find a Pole in front of them in the queue for a GP appointment.  Meanwhile all non-UK EU-immigrants feel they have the sword of Damocles is hanging over them- and that is just appalling - and it is neither British - nor Christian (as we seem to think we still are and of which we live it's values)


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## MarkE (Oct 9, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because the likes of Liam Fox are indicating that a guarantee *cannot *be given - that residency of existing migrants is a bargaining chip that we cannot 'give away'.
		
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What's wrong with that? Like it or not, when it comes to disentangling from the eu, we need to have equal leverage on everything, why give them any edge in negotiations. If the eu came out and said all UK nationals within the  eu will be able to remain where they are if they choose then we would reciprocate. At last we have a government willing to stand up for the UK.


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## the smiling assassin (Oct 9, 2016)

MarkE said:



			What's wrong with that? Like it or not, when it comes to disentangling from the eu, we need to have equal leverage on everything, why give them any edge in negotiations. If the eu came out and said all UK nationals within the  eu will be able to remain where they are if they choose then we would reciprocate. At last we have a government willing to stand up for the UK.
		
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Because using fellow human beings, their lives and their families as a bargaining chip is a callous act in the extreme. Is there not even an ounce of you that feels compassion for the situation of others without your exquisite British pedigree or do you simply not care?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 9, 2016)

the smiling assassin said:



			Because using fellow human beings, their lives and their families as a bargaining chip is a callous act in the extreme. Is there not even an ounce of you that feels compassion for the situation of others without your exquisite British pedigree or do you simply not care?
		
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Don't be a Drama queen!  Why are you not condemning the EU for not giving assurances to UK Citizens living there.    You know very well there will be no mass expulsion of EU citizens and it has already been made clear that most of them have a right to stay anyway.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 9, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because the likes of Liam Fox are indicating that a guarantee *cannot *be given - that residency of existing migrants is a bargaining chip that we cannot 'give away'.  

And all this does is raise expectations in many _Leavers _that there is a possibility that all existing non-UK EU-nationals living in the UK could be told to leave; and wouldn't that make things oh so much better.  And when it doesn't happen - as it won't - there will be huge resentments to all of those who thought it might come about - and who, for instance, find a Pole in front of them in the queue for a GP appointment.  Meanwhile all non-UK EU-immigrants feel they have the sword of Damocles is hanging over them- and that is just appalling - and it is neither British - nor Christian (as we seem to think we still are and of which we live it's values)
		
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It really is like hitting your head against a wall trying to discuss anything with you!


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 9, 2016)

Well, it is now going to be a 'secret list'...... totally mind boggling, beginning to sound like a Secret Seven plot

I keep having visions of the Dads Army captured German parachutist.
'Vee are making a list, vot is your name boy'


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## SocketRocket (Oct 9, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well, it is now going to be a 'secret list'...... totally mind boggling, beginning to sound like a Secret Seven plot

I keep having visions of the Dads Army captured German parachutist.
'Vee are making a list, vot is your name boy'
		
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It was a  submarine crew , You stupid Boy!


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 9, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well, it is now going to be a 'secret list'...... totally mind boggling, beginning to sound like a Secret Seven plot

I keep having visions of the Dads Army captured German parachutist.
'Vee are making a list, vot is your name boy'
		
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Where do you keep getting this stuff from? The latest reports are that firms won't have to "list or name foreign workers they employ" but could be asked "simply to report their numbers". But I guess that the truth would get in the way of your anti Tory rhetoric.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 9, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It really is like hitting your head against a wall trying to discuss anything with you!
		
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Well I might say exactly the same thing about yourself - who seems to see no ill whatsoever in the attitude of some (many?) Leavers towards the existing immigrant community - or are you saying that the immigration policy Brexiteers voted for covered those existing immigrants - when we all thought it was about limiting future immigration.   And you still haven't replied to my question on whether you think it reasonable that people should be used as bargaining chips in exit negotiations (let's consider the 800,000 who would reportedly be given an amnesty and allowed to stay)


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## SocketRocket (Oct 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well I might say exactly the same thing about yourself - who seems to see no ill whatsoever in the attitude of some (many?) Leavers towards the existing immigrant community - or are you saying that the immigration policy Brexiteers voted for covered those existing immigrants - when we all thought it was about limiting future immigration.   And you still haven't replied to my question on whether you think it reasonable that people should be used as bargaining chips in exit negotiations (let's consider the 800,000 who would reportedly be given an amnesty and allowed to stay)
		
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I said it was like hitting your head against a wall.  I have explained repeatedly that the EU should make a reciprocal arrangement for UK Citizens living in the EU and I have put that point to you repeatedly but you fail to answer it, you just keep harping on about EU citizens over here.


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## vkurup (Oct 10, 2016)

Its funny how folks who support 'hard' Brexit (whatever that means) balk at how Trump would make US more insular and dangerous to the world.  So while it is ok for us, we dont want the US to do it... Anyways another debate.  

A newspaper clipping from India.



Been on a couple of calls since that lovely speech with two University Master hopefuls - one looking at LSE and another going to Manchester - who are now reconsidering UK in favour of the US. I am not surprised, but I thought the UK wanted to attract this kind of talent rather than turning them away.

Before someone fires his rocket, let me say that i am not against the Govt knowing the 'inventory' of non-UK passport holders working in business.  Most HR teams in decent sized business already collect this data. Most countries already collect such this data. Where I start disagreeing with hard tone being taken where the intention is to appease the Brexit 'majority' by driving this 'hard divide' between British-native v/ non-natives.  The Tories are easily forgetting that over 49% voted to stay and since the vote people may have switched sides (either way).  In the risk of political capital, we run the risk of being Trumped into a world of an insular society in constant fear of our neighbours and ready to whip out nationalistic jingoism that sets one group of citizens against another.  It also seems to becoming a world that now rewards the fastest/loudest talker that drowns out a reasoned and fact based discussion - You are either in my camp or you dont love this country.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I said it was like hitting your head against a wall.  I have explained repeatedly that the EU should make a reciprocal arrangement for UK Citizens living in the EU and I have put that point to you repeatedly but you fail to answer it, you just keep harping on about EU citizens over here.
		
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I thought that the whole point of Brexit was for the UK to be able to make it's *own *decisions - to not be beholden to the EU.  I hear a lot from those supporting Brexit that the key issue in the Leave voters mind was sovereignty - it was NOT immigration.

So the UK government can quite simply make a unilateral decision to guarantee continued residence to all existing EU immigrants.  

What the EU countries subsequently decide to do in respect of UK citizens resident on the EU is up to them.  I would similarly hope that the EU would not expel UK citizens for exactly the same reason as I hope the UK will not expel EU citizens.  If the EU decides to 'expel' UK citizens, then the UK will have to accommodate them if they wish to return here.    

The UK created this issue and potential problem through deciding to Leave - and so we have to sort it out.  And we are in a position to do so - to think and make decisions independent of the EU - and that is what Leave voters want.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Its funny how folks who support 'hard' Brexit (whatever that means) balk at how Trump would make US more insular and dangerous to the world.  So while it is ok for us, we dont want the US to do it... Anyways another debate.  

A newspaper clipping from India.
View attachment 21001


Been on a couple of calls since that lovely speech with two University Master hopefuls - one looking at LSE and another going to Manchester - who are now reconsidering UK in favour of the US. I am not surprised, but I thought the UK wanted to attract this kind of talent rather than turning them away.

Before someone fires his rocket, let me say that i am not against the Govt knowing the 'inventory' of non-UK passport holders working in business.  Most HR teams in decent sized business already collect this data. Most countries already collect such this data. Where I start disagreeing with hard tone being taken where the intention is to appease the Brexit 'majority' by driving this 'hard divide' between British-native v/ non-natives.  The Tories are easily forgetting that over 49% voted to stay and since the vote people may have switched sides (either way).  In the risk of political capital, we run the risk of being Trumped into a world of an insular society in constant fear of our neighbours and ready to whip out nationalistic jingoism that sets one group of citizens against another.  It also seems to becoming a world that now rewards the fastest/loudest talker that drowns out a reasoned and fact based discussion - You are either in my camp or you dont love this country.
		
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Do the government not already *know *the nationality of all residents of the UK through their NI number - and through that they will also know where they work.


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## vkurup (Oct 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Do the government not already *know *the nationality of all residents of the UK through their NI number - and through that they will also know where they work.
		
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In theory they should..   If I come to this country for work to work and get an NI number.  After a few years, if I choose to get naturalised and then a citizen, I dont have to update my NI.   If my partner has not been working and does not have an NI and then gains citizenship, the NI is not in picture.  So in reality the NI is not a fool proof way of knowing it. 

I know what we need.. a giant new computer system which will connect all these bits about *ALL* people on this island - we need a new ID card system!!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2016)

I'm beginning to understand a bit more about _Breakfast means Breakfast._

Clearly our PM has looked at the breakfast menu and decided to eschew the delights of all continental breakfasts, and ones containing any kippers (as they are very fishy and stink).  

Instead she seems to be going for the Full English Breakfast.  As yet however she doesn't quite know what's in the full English.  She is very reluctant to have any Scottish blackpudding - as she doesn't like the taste of that and it's made up of stuff that she'd rather not subject her digestive system to.   And as her hubby will have what she has he's a bit reluctant as her doesn't know what he's going to have to eat - and at the moment she's not telling.

But Full English it seems to be - just hope it sits OK as these full English can be a bit heavy and problematic later in the day and can make you feel rather unwell.  Maybe a healthier continental option would have been a better choice.

_Breakfast means Breakfast_.  Let's hope a full English doesn't lead to indigestion and a Dogs Dinner...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2016)

vkurup said:



			In theory they should..   If I come to this country for work to work and get an NI number.  After a few years, if I choose to get naturalised and then a citizen, I dont have to update my NI.   If my partner has not been working and does not have an NI and then gains citizenship, the NI is not in picture.  So in reality the NI is not a fool proof way of knowing it. 

I know what we need.. a giant new computer system which will connect all these bits about *ALL* people on this island - we need *a new ID card system*!!!
		
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Wouldn't surprise me, as it occurs that May could propose just about anything as a policy initiative and advance it as necessary to support delivery of what the people voted for.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Wouldn't surprise me, as it occurs that May could propose just about anything as a policy initiative and advance it as necessary to support delivery of what the people voted for.
		
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So just like all those wonderful EU states, except Denmark.


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## Lambchops (Oct 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I thought that the whole point of Brexit was for the UK to be able to make it's *own *decisions - to not be beholden to the EU.  I hear a lot from those supporting Brexit that the key issue in the Leave voters mind was sovereignty - it was NOT immigration.

So the UK government can quite simply make a unilateral decision to guarantee continued residence to all existing EU immigrants.  

What the EU countries subsequently decide to do in respect of UK citizens resident on the EU is up to them.  I would similarly hope that the EU would not expel UK citizens for exactly the same reason as I hope the UK will not expel EU citizens.  If the EU decides to 'expel' UK citizens, then the UK will have to accommodate them if they wish to return here.    

The UK created this issue and potential problem through deciding to Leave - and so we have to sort it out.  And we are in a position to do so - to think and make decisions independent of the EU - and that is what Leave voters want.
		
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If the relevant person in either the Uk or EU Country has the correct legal paperwork in place then they won't be going anywhere. You are supposed to register for temporary residence within 3 months of arriving in the country, permanent residence can be applied for after a country specific timescale


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## ger147 (Oct 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I thought that the whole point of Brexit was for the UK to be able to make it's *own *decisions - to not be beholden to the EU.  I hear a lot from those supporting Brexit that the key issue in the Leave voters mind was sovereignty - it was NOT immigration.

So the UK government can quite simply make a unilateral decision to guarantee continued residence to all existing EU immigrants.  

What the EU countries subsequently decide to do in respect of UK citizens resident on the EU is up to them.  I would similarly hope that the EU would not expel UK citizens for exactly the same reason as I hope the UK will not expel EU citizens.  If the EU decides to 'expel' UK citizens, then the UK will have to accommodate them if they wish to return here.    

The UK created this issue and potential problem through deciding to Leave - and so we have to sort it out.  And we are in a position to do so - to think and make decisions independent of the EU - and that is what Leave voters want.
		
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Divorces don't work that way, no matter which party initiated the split.

Both the EU and the UK have a right as well as a duty to negotiate the terms of their divorce and the status of each other's citizens is one of those issues that needs to be resolved. I'm sure those negotiations will take place in due course and I'm also sure there will be no EU or UK version of Mein Kampf required no matter how much some of the press try to stir up such nonsense.


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## Foxholer (Oct 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			... I have explained repeatedly that the EU *should make a reciprocal arrangement* for UK Citizens living in the EU and I have put that point to you repeatedly but you fail to answer it, you just keep harping on about EU citizens over here.
		
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What they *should* do could well be quite different from what they *will* do, even simply state they *might* do, as part of the Brexit negotiation process! And after Brexit is complete  they could change the rules without reference to the UK!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2016)

Lambchops said:



			If the relevant person in either the Uk or EU Country has the correct legal paperwork in place then they won't be going anywhere. You are supposed to register for temporary residence within 3 months of arriving in the country, permanent residence can be applied for after a country specific timescale
		
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My understanding (from the Brexit supporting Daily Telegraph) is that by the time we actually exit the EU 80% of immigrants will have legal right to stay and cannot be thrown out.  So the suggestion by some that they might - depending upon what the rest of the EU does with it's UK citizen resident - I cannot see as being anything other than a tactic pandering to those who voted leave on the grounds of existing immigrant levels - never mind cutting future levels.  Because the number of non-UK EU nationals living in the UK won't be going down - and the current level causes many a big problem


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2016)

ger147 said:



			Divorces don't work that way, no matter which party initiated the split.

Both the EU and the UK have a right as well as a duty to negotiate the terms of their divorce and the status of each other's citizens is one of those issues that needs to be resolved. I'm sure those negotiations will take place in due course and I'm also sure there will be no EU or UK version of Mein Kampf required no matter how much some of the press try to stir up such nonsense.
		
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I know this Gerry,  but if Brexit means independent thought and decision making as we are promised, then as a civilised country with laws, culture and reputation based upon christian values of compassion, fairness, caring and 'loving thy neighbour' - the UK could simply state that all existing non-UK EU immigrants can stay (they might have the legal right to stay in any case).  There is nothing stopping us.  Besides the alternative being suggested seems to be that we might well kick out some if not most - and that would be self-destructive nonsense as well as inhumane.


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## Lambchops (Oct 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My understanding (from the Brexit supporting Daily Telegraph) is that by the time we actually exit the EU 80% of immigrants will have legal right to stay and cannot be thrown out.  So the suggestion by some that they might - depending upon what the rest of the EU does with it's UK citizen resident - I cannot see as being anything other than a tactic pandering to those who voted leave on the grounds of existing immigrant levels - never mind cutting future levels.  Because the number of non-UK EU nationals living in the UK won't be going down - and the current level causes many a big problem
		
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I agree - I've permanent residence here so I've no problems but I know lads who haven't registered who could be in bother.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2016)

Lambchops said:



			I agree - I've permanent residence here so I've no problems but I know lads who haven't registered who could be in bother.
		
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hmmm.  Not sure I have too much sympathy for those who haven't registered for temporary residence.  Though there may be very *good *reasons why they haven't  - you and I know that for as long as they are not registered they will be under suspicion by some as being illegal and working in the black economy.


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## ger147 (Oct 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I know this Gerry,  but if Brexit means independent thought and decision making as we are promised, then as a civilised country with laws, culture and reputation based upon christian values of compassion, fairness, caring and 'loving thy neighbour' - the UK could simply state that all existing non-UK EU immigrants can stay (they might have the legal right to stay in any case).  There is nothing stopping us.  Besides the alternative being suggested seems to be that we might well kick out some if not most - and that would be self-destructive nonsense as well as inhumane.
		
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There is no moral or christian basis underpinning EU or UK politics, and if you genuinely believe there is then I'm surprised you didn't also believe what Boris wrote on his bus.

This split is a negotiation, all chips are on the table and all the cards on both sides are still face down, and IMHO the UK government would be foolish to proceed on any other basis at the moment.


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## Lambchops (Oct 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			hmmm.  Not sure I have too much sympathy for those who haven't registered for temporary residence.  Though there may be very *good *reasons why they haven't  - you and I know that for as long as they are not registered they will be under suspicion by some as being illegal and working in the black economy.
		
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just sheer laziness for the lads I know


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2016)

ger147 said:



			There is no moral or christian basis underpinning EU or UK politics, and if you genuinely believe there is then I'm surprised you didn't also believe what Boris wrote on his bus.

This split is a negotiation, all chips are on the table and all the cards on both sides are still face down, and IMHO the UK government would be foolish to proceed on any other basis at the moment.
		
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I get what you say about UK and EU politics...but there *is *underpinning UK culture and law.  I have to say that IMO people should *never *be used as bargaining chips.  There should be no quid pro quo on this - and there need not be any.  

The *right *thing to do is to let immigrants stay (especially if they are legally entitled to), and control future immigration in whatever way you choose.   This may not be what some might *want *to happen - but it is the *right *thing.  And in my experience when I have a difficult decision to make, the best outcome in the long run will result from me doing the *right* thing and not what I want to do or what might benefit me most in the short term.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2016)

Lambchops said:



			just sheer laziness for the lads I know
		
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they need to get on with it then...


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## ger147 (Oct 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I get what you say about UK and EU politics...but there *is *underpinning UK culture and law.  I have to say that IMO people should *never *be used as bargaining chips.  There should be no quid pro quo on this - and there need not be any.  

The *right *thing to do is to let immigrants stay (especially if they are legally entitled to), and control future immigration in whatever way you choose.   This may not be what some might *want *to happen - but it is the *right *thing.  And in my experience when I have a difficult decision to make, the best outcome in the long run will result from me doing the *right* thing and not what I want to do or what might benefit me most in the short term.
		
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All I can do is agree to disagree as IMO there absolutely IS a quid pro quo on this issue and the government would be mad to start making concessions before the negotiations about the terms of our divorce from the EU have started in earnest.

The EU is a political organisation so has nothing to do with our culture etc. and IMO the UK government's responsibility is to make the best deal they can for the UK with the cards they've been dealt.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2016)

ger147 said:



			All I can do is agree to disagree as IMO there absolutely IS a quid pro quo on this issue and the government would be mad to start making concessions before the negotiations about the terms of our divorce from the EU have started in earnest.

The EU is a political organisation so has nothing to do with our culture etc. and IMO the UK government's responsibility is to make the best deal they can for the UK with the cards they've been dealt.
		
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But *we* can make our *own *decisions.  For me the right thing is for us to guarantee residency as that is consistent with, and makes a statement about, the sort of country the UK is and intends to be in the future.  

When did the UK ever throw out any group of people - especially a group of people who have done nothing to bring this upon themselves.  In all the history of the UK we have never done this as far as I am aware - in fact I cannot think of a country or government who *has *done this - other than Uganda with the Ugandan Asians, and Nazi Germany and the Jews (I make no comparisons - only looking for examples).  The rest of us are responsible for their current uncertain situation and potential severe impact on their lives - so we have to take responsibility for them.  The vote was not about throwing people out - it was largely about limiting people coming in.

Besides - as said - my understanding is that the UK may not be legally allowed to throw out nonUK EU residents with 5+ yrs residency - so the lives of our fellow UK citizens from overseas cannot actually be a bargaining chip - it's just Brexit rhetoric.


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## ger147 (Oct 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But *we* can make our *own *decisions.  For me the right thing is for us to guarantee residency as that is consistent with, and makes a statement about, the sort of country the UK is and intends to be in the future.  

When did the UK ever throw out any group of people - especially a group of people who have done nothing to bring this upon themselves.  In all the history of the UK we have never done this as far as I am aware - in fact I cannot think of a country or government who *has *done this - other than Uganda with the Ugandan Asians, and Nazi Germany and the Jews (I make no comparisons - only looking for examples).  The rest of us are responsible for their current uncertain situation and potential severe impact on their lives - so we have to take responsibility for them.  The vote was not about throwing people out - it was largely about limiting people coming in.

Besides - as said - my understanding is that the UK may not be legally allowed to throw out nonUK EU residents with 5+ yrs residency - so the lives of our fellow UK citizens from overseas cannot actually be a bargaining chip - it's just Brexit rhetoric.
		
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As I said above, all I can do is agree to disagree as the UK government making such an announcement NOW before negotiations have begun would IMO be madness.

Your have your opinion and I have mines.  You are free to continue to hold yours and I will continue to hold mines...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2016)

And since May tells us _Breakfast means Breakfast._...and that we are going to have a _Full English_ - I hear that LibDems and Labour and others would like to be consulted - and if decision is for leaving the single market then we need to have a debate and vote in parliament - that being such a critical and major step.

So that consultation will be on whether the _Full English _we are all going to have to eat for the rest of our lives will contain black pudding, beans, fried bread etc.  Of course NicolaS would like Lorn sausage and Stornoway black pudding included - though I doubt many _Breakfasters _outside of Scotland would fancy that too much.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2016)

ger147 said:



			As I said above, all I can do is agree to disagree as the UK government making such an announcement NOW before negotiations have begun would IMO be madness.

Your have your opinion and I have mines.  You are free to continue to hold yours and I will continue to hold mines...
		
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:thup:


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## Foxholer (Oct 10, 2016)

ger147 said:



			...
Your have your opinion and I have mines.  You are free to continue to hold yours and I will continue to hold mines...
		
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I wouldn't hold them too long if I were you! They might explode!


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## Hobbit (Oct 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But *we* can make our *own *decisions.  For me the right thing is for us to guarantee residency as that is consistent with, and makes a statement about, the sort of country the UK is and intends to be in the future.  

When did the UK ever throw out any group of people - especially a group of people who have done nothing to bring this upon themselves.  In all the history of the UK we have never done this as far as I am aware - in fact I cannot think of a country or government who *has *done this - other than Uganda with the Ugandan Asians, and Nazi Germany and the Jews (I make no comparisons - only looking for examples).  The rest of us are responsible for their current uncertain situation and potential severe impact on their lives - so we have to take responsibility for them.  The vote was not about throwing people out - it was largely about limiting people coming in.

Besides - as said - my understanding is that the UK may not be legally allowed to throw out nonUK EU residents with 5+ yrs residency - so the lives of our fellow UK citizens from overseas cannot actually be a bargaining chip - it's just Brexit rhetoric.
		
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Why won't the govt protect UK nationals living abroad by asking for the quid pro quo? Yes it may be a cynical bargaining chip but I can't see why it won't be used. 

As for the UK has never kicked out... the UK deports people almost every day.

And if a stop is put on any more coming in, the numbers already here would drop. So many come and leave every year. If there's no more coming but there's some leaving... not rocket science.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I thought that the whole point of Brexit was for the UK to be able to make it's *own *decisions - to not be beholden to the EU.  I hear a lot from those supporting Brexit that the key issue in the Leave voters mind was sovereignty - it was NOT immigration.

So the UK government can quite simply make a unilateral decision to guarantee continued residence to all existing EU immigrants.  

What the EU countries subsequently decide to do in respect of UK citizens resident on the EU is up to them.  I would similarly hope that the EU would not expel UK citizens for exactly the same reason as I hope the UK will not expel EU citizens.  If the EU decides to 'expel' UK citizens, then the UK will have to accommodate them if they wish to return here.    

The UK created this issue and potential problem through deciding to Leave - and so we have to sort it out.  And we are in a position to do so - to think and make decisions independent of the EU - and that is what Leave voters want.
		
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If you think immigration was not a major deciding factor for many people to vote leave then you must have been asleep during the whole process.   I would suggest it was the major reason most voted to leave.


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## vkurup (Oct 10, 2016)

So Lady May says that she won't let MPs vote on this Brexs*it thingi.. 
1) Is it a good idea if the MPs get a vote? Isn't that the point in having a parliamentary democracy that MPs decide on laws rather than have a law by phone ins and SMS.. else Simon Cowell would be PM

2) if MPs reject the referendum would that get the Brexiters up in arms and vice versa, if they voted to leave will it placate the remainers for ever?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			If you think immigration was not a major deciding factor for many people to vote leave then you must have been asleep during the whole process.   I would suggest it was the major reason most voted to leave.
		
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I have recently been hearing that immigration was *not *the most important factor that caused folk to vote to Leave - but that it was sovereignty - taking back control from the EU and the likes of the ECJ.  This when challenged that immigration *was *the over-riding factor,  this is not me - this is Leave supporters.  I most certainly think as you do - that Leave was driven by immigration fears and prejudices.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Why won't the govt protect UK nationals living abroad by asking for the quid pro quo? Yes it may be a cynical bargaining chip but I can't see why it won't be used. 

As for the UK has never kicked out... the UK deports people almost every day.

And if a stop is put on any more coming in, the numbers already here would drop. So many come and leave every year. If there's no more coming but there's some leaving... not rocket science.
		
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Why not? - because UK citizens resident in the EU have been put in this position by the UK leaving the EU.  If the EU choose to ask them to leave then that is their prerogative - assuming that they can be asked to leave.  The UK has caused this situation - it is abhorrent and appalling that we use the lives of innocent residents of the UK - here quite legally - to help us sort out the mess that we have created.

The UK has never - ever - done a mass deportation. Even the threat of it stinks and makes me ashamed.  

BTW - I used to be a rocket scientist - I know rocket science - it isn't that difficult....


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 10, 2016)

Possibly as big a threat from the EU in their treatment of UK citizens.

After all it was only last week that politicians from both France & Germany were suggesting the UK "must pay the price" and possibly even be punished for leaving in order to discourage others within the EU following the same course.

Now I am a Remainer but it does seem strange that the leaders are themselves so lacking in confidence in the attraction of EU membership.


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## Hobbit (Oct 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Why not? - because UK citizens resident in the EU have been put in this position by the UK leaving the EU.  If the EU choose to ask them to leave then that is their prerogative - assuming that they can be asked to leave.  The UK has caused this situation - it is abhorrent and appalling that we use the lives of innocent residents of the UK - here quite legally - to help us sort out the mess that we have created.

The UK has never - ever - done a mass deportation. Even the threat of it stinks and makes me ashamed.  

BTW - I used to be a rocket scientist - I know rocket science - it isn't that difficult....
		
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Where in your post I quoted did you say mass deportation? You said deportation, hence my response. If you want to move the goalposts... And who has said mass deportation? 

But it it's ok for the EU to use their prerogative but not for the UK to do the same? Double standards to support your argument is really poor.

And it's your interpretation to call it a mess. To 52% it isn't. To the Brexiters it's the process of positioning and negotiating.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 10, 2016)

Â£ below the Euro at most UK Airport exchange shops now......bound to happen sometime.

I look forward to our our elected MP's voting against any government breakfast [Welsh version of Brexit] proposals.
What happens then?

BTW Scotland supporting 3rd Heathrow runway.
An interesting day in UK politics.


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## kmdmr1 (Oct 10, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Â£ below the Euro at most UK Airport exchange shops now......bound to happen sometime.

I look forward to our our elected MP's voting against any government breakfast [Welsh version of Brexit] proposals.
What happens then?

BTW Scotland supporting 3rd Heathrow runway.
An interesting day in UK politics.
		
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just got my holiday money,
1.7 euros to the pound (staff rate) 
Cashier said it`s 1.1 to the pound in the airports...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Where in your post I quoted did you say mass deportation? You said deportation, hence my response. If you want to move the goalposts... And who has said mass deportation? 

But it it's ok for the EU to use their prerogative but not for the UK to do the same? Double standards to support your argument is really poor.

And it's your interpretation to call it a mess. To 52% it isn't. To the Brexiters it's the process of positioning and negotiating.
		
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As I did say previously - no it's *not *OK for the EU to kick out British nationals - but we caused this situation - and what other countries do is their affair - I am not a national of any of these countries - I am a Scot and a UK citizen.  I believe the UK is so very much better than descending to the obscene level of threatening mass deportation of immigrants - what else can you call telling 3m people they have to leave.  They have done nothing wrong - and some think it OK to use their lives to help sort out a mess of our creating.  I wonder what the reason we would give for their deportation - the EU won't play ball? Aw diddums.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 10, 2016)

Only in Scotland:lol:

BTW forgot .....new trident Subs to be made with French Steel.

Anyone got one more for a nap hand?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Â£ below the Euro at most UK Airport exchange shops now......bound to happen sometime.

I look forward to our our elected MP's voting against any government breakfast [Welsh version of Brexit] proposals.
What happens then?

BTW Scotland supporting 3rd Heathrow runway.
An interesting day in UK politics.
		
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My MP Jeremy Hunt was a Remainer - and his constituency voted massively to Remain.  Maybe I should petition him to demand visibility and a vote on the _Full English Breakfast _that Maid May and her Band of Breakfasteers propose as the starting point for negotiations with the EU - not our objectives - just our opening gambit.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My MP Jeremy Hunt was a Remainer - and his constituency voted massively to Remain.  Maybe I should petition him to demand visibility and a vote on the _Full English Breakfast _that Maid May and her Band of Breakfasteers propose as the starting point for negotiations with the EU - not our objectives - just our opening gambit.
		
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May not be relevant if the French President gets his wish to punish the UK.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 10, 2016)

Just for you DfT (and any of our other Scottish forummers)........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVy7faNKEtM

Please note there are a couple of swear words so probably not suitable for a work environment.


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## MarkE (Oct 10, 2016)

the smiling assassin said:



			Because using fellow human beings, their lives and their families as a bargaining chip is a callous act in the extreme. Is there not even an ounce of you that feels compassion for the situation of others without your exquisite British pedigree or do you simply not care?
		
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What a load of tosh. It's ok for the eu to use Uk citizens as bargaining chips and for us to not do likewise? How naive you are.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2016)

MarkE said:



			What a load of tosh. It's ok for the eu to use Uk citizens as bargaining chips and for us to not do likewise? How naive you are.
		
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No - not tosh and not naÃ¯ve MarkE - callous - as it appears that you are happy to be described.  

The EU never wanted this.  You cannot blame the EU for any of this.  It is all of our own making.  The EU nationals resident in the UK are here legally and most are fully integrated into society as friends, colleagues, lovers, classmates, husbands and wives.  Our political bargaining with the EU should go nowhere near bartering in people - that should be unconscionable for our society and it is frankly disgusting that some think it OK.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No - not tosh and not naÃ¯ve MarkE - callous - as it appears that you are happy to be described.  

The EU never wanted this.  You cannot blame the EU for any of this.  It is all of our own making.  The EU nationals resident in the UK are here legally and most are fully integrated into society as friends, colleagues, lovers, classmates, husbands and wives.  Our political bargaining with the EU should go nowhere near bartering in people - that should be unconscionable for our society and it is frankly disgusting that some think it OK.
		
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The EU is complicit in the situation we find ourselves in. Maybe the EU should have been more willing to give some concessions to Cameron when he went over to negotiate before the vote, then we wouldn't be in this mess. Rather than him coming back with what effectively amounted to nothing if they had been willing to concede on a few small points then it's possible the vote would have ended with a different result. This week the news is saying that Germany is looking to stop out of work benefits to migrants for 5 years unless they have paid into the system. Something that was denied to the UK during negotiations.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 10, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As I did say previously - no it's *not *OK for the EU to kick out British nationals - but we caused this situation - and what other countries do is their affair - I am not a national of any of these countries - I am a Scot and a UK citizen.  I believe the UK is so very much better than descending to the obscene level of threatening mass deportation of immigrants - what else can you call telling 3m people they have to leave.  They have done nothing wrong - and some think it OK to use their lives to help sort out a mess of our creating.  I wonder what the reason we would give for their deportation - the EU won't play ball? Aw diddums.
		
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 Can you show me a Government quote that has threatened the mass deportation of immigrants?    To be frank I think you should be ashamed of yourself for stirring up such exaggerated condemnations and closed minded views.


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## the smiling assassin (Oct 10, 2016)

MarkE said:



			What a load of tosh. It's ok for the eu to use Uk citizens as bargaining chips and for us to not do likewise? How naive you are.
		
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Ironically, 'Pathetic': deserving of our pity.
I despair.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Can you show me a Government quote that has threatened the mass deportation of immigrants?    To be frank I think you should be ashamed of yourself for stirring up such exaggerated condemnations and closed minded views.
		
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Since when did care and compassion for our fellows; pride in what are recognised UK values; values I thought we cherished - become close-minded?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...talks-with-europe_uk_57f3db60e4b038eb745a5783

_At the conference event hosted by Conservative Home, Fox said: â€œI think we would all hope what we get is a totally open reciprocal agreement where UK citizens in other EU countries are free and welcome to stay there as would those who are settled in the UK.

â€œBut again as the prime minister said. To give that away before we get into a negotiation would be to hand over one of our main cards in that negotiation and doesnâ€™t necessarily make sense at this point.

â€œOn the question of EU citizens. The prime minister made it very clear. We would like to be able to give a reassurance to EU nationals in the UK, that depends on reciprocation by other countries.â€
_

The threat is clear from these words of Liam Fox - no doubt you will deny it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			The EU is complicit in the situation we find ourselves in. Maybe the EU should have been more willing to give some concessions to Cameron when he went over to negotiate before the vote, then we wouldn't be in this mess. Rather than him coming back with what effectively amounted to nothing if they had been willing to concede on a few small points then it's possible the vote would have ended with a different result. This week the news is saying that Germany is looking to stop out of work benefits to migrants for 5 years unless they have paid into the system. Something that was denied to the UK during negotiations.
		
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It may be complicit in what has happened by not bowing and scraping to the mighty and self-important UK and not giving Cameron 'enough' - it is not complicit in any way with what the government is saying in respect of the future status and 'monitoring' of the UK immigrant community.  The situation is completely of our own making - we did not have to have the referendum and we did not haver to vote to Leave. Simples.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 10, 2016)

the smiling assassin said:



			Ironically, 'Pathetic': deserving of our pity.
I despair.
		
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+1 from me on that^^^

I fear that we are heading towards being an ever-more angry, suspicious, resentful and selfish country.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 11, 2016)

the smiling assassin said:



			Ironically, 'Pathetic': deserving of our pity.
I despair.
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			+1 from me on that^^^

I fear that we are heading towards being an ever-more angry, suspicious, resentful and selfish country.
		
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Absolutely pathetic !    Posts like this typify the attitude of the socialist who have no grip on reality and are so naive it's beyond a laughing mater.


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## Hobbit (Oct 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It may be complicit in what has happened by not bowing and scraping to the mighty and self-important UK and not giving Cameron 'enough' - it is not complicit in any way with what the government is saying in respect of the future status and 'monitoring' of the UK immigrant community.  The situation is completely of our own making - we did not have to have the referendum and we did not haver to vote to Leave. Simples.
		
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Unless I'm much mistaken the MAJORITY voted out. Simpes.

And now you're railing against the govt for attempting to negotiate the best it can on the back of that MAJORITY vote.

*rubs chin and ponders who it is that sounds pathetic...


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## chrisd (Oct 11, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Unless I'm much mistaken the MAJORITY voted out. Simpes.

And now you're railing against the govt for attempting to negotiate the best it can on the back of that MAJORITY vote.

*rubs chin and ponders who it is that sounds pathetic...
		
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Look Brian, there's really no need to let the facts get in the way  .............  Sorry, yes there is.  :thup:


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## the smiling assassin (Oct 11, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Absolutely pathetic ! Posts like this typify the attitude of the socialist who have no grip on reality and are so naive it's beyond a laughing mater.
		
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If you say so... I mean your retorts are approaching Trump levels of deplorable, so that must make you very proud of yourself...


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 11, 2016)

I'm certainly no fan of the government. I hate that the tories have brought about a situation where we are using people as bargaining chips. However I have to agree it makes no sense the guarantee Eu citizens can remain here without the same agreement for U.K. Nationals on the continent. However if they try to get more than a simple like for like deal with this "bargaining chip" they would be deplorable.

On a wider issue, we are gradually becoming aware of the implications of brexit. Most immediately the collapse in the value of the pound and the resultant increase in costs. Tourists at airports are getting less than a Euro to the pound, fuel costs are about to be hiked and this is only the beginning.

Brexit is an out of control car racing downhill and the tories have decided to ride it to the conclusion regardless of how much damage it does to the country economically, culturally or to our international reputation.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It may be complicit in what has happened by not bowing and scraping to the mighty and self-important UK and not giving Cameron 'enough' - it is not complicit in any way with what the government is saying in respect of the future status and 'monitoring' of the UK immigrant community.  The situation is completely of our own making - we did not have to have the referendum and we did not haver to vote to Leave. Simples.
		
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Complicit by being so completely arrogant that they thought that no one would ever vote to leave the EU because it's so wonderful. In my opinion the vote would probably have gone the way of Remain if the EU had been willing to give Cameron something so he could say negotiations had been successful. The whole "better to be in the EU and change it from within" argument fell apart due to the fact they weren't willing to make any concessions to try to prevent a country leaving. Why would they have changed if we had voted to remain? And now a country has voted to leave they have been panicked into trying to appease growing anti EU sentiment in other countries.


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## chrisd (Oct 11, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Complicit by being so completely arrogant that they thought that no one would ever vote to leave the EU because it's so wonderful. In my opinion the vote would probably have gone the way of Remain if the EU had been willing to give Cameron something so he could say negotiations had been successful. The whole "better to be in the EU and change it from within" argument fell apart due to the fact they weren't willing to make any concessions to try to prevent a country leaving. Why would they have changed if we had voted to remain? And now a country has voted to leave they have been panicked into trying to appease growing anti EU sentiment in other countries.
		
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I absolutely agree and doubt that we will be the only country to make this decision over the next few years. What about the shortfall from our lost contribution that the other nett contributors will have to supplement, and that will worsen more when other new countries join who will take out billions


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 11, 2016)

chrisd said:



			I absolutely agree and doubt that we will be the only country to make this decision over the next few years. What about the shortfall from our lost contribution that the other nett contributors will have to supplement, and that will worsen more when other new countries join who will take out billions
		
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Such a short term view that so many of us have taken. I've no doubt the day will come when we regret leaving and want back in.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 11, 2016)

the smiling assassin said:



			If you say so... I mean your retorts are approaching Trump levels of deplorable, so that must make you very proud of yourself...
		
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What a pathetic reply.


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 11, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			What a pathetic reply.
		
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The irony.......................................................... thats all!!


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 11, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Such a short term view that so many of us have taken. I've no doubt the day will come when we regret leaving and want back in.
		
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I think that the next 5 to 10 years will determine if you are correct or not. If the EU implements reforms to appease the current anti EU feeling and moves back towards being a trading bloc with less of the political interference n you could be right. If it takes the opposite path and goes towards ever closer political union then I think you'll be wrong. 

But of course probably the biggest factor as to whether we regret leaving Will be the success or otherwise of the UK outside of the EU.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 11, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Absolutely pathetic !    Posts like this typify the attitude of the socialist who have no grip on reality and are so naive it's beyond a laughing mater.
		
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What is 'socialist' about what I have said.  I am speaking more from my Christian beliefs and values.  Peoples lives cannot be used as bargaining chips - to think otherwise is indeed callous.

But for a moment let's just put that aside and consider what the UK would actually do if the EU countries decided that UK nationals were no longer welcome (as unlikely as that is).  Tell me what the UK would then do if the EU 'calls our bluff'.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 11, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Such a short term view that so many of us have taken. I've no doubt the day will come when we regret leaving and want back in.
		
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When you eat a full English Breakfast day after day it may be great to start with - but you will eventually get pretty sick of it and eventually it will impact your health - and not in a positive way.  _Breakfast means Breakfast means a Full English Breakfast_


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 11, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			What a pathetic reply.
		
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Are you actually reading or listening to what the majority of economic and political commentators are saying at the moment?  Over a week I will read commentators and leading articles in the Telegraph, Times, Sunday Times, Observer, Guardian, the i.  And there is concern of various degrees about the way things are going and the government utterances on immigration.  

You are name-calling the likes of myself and the smiling assassin, and yet you seem to have your head completely in the sand - maybe it's easier to slag us off that to admit the truth of the situation.


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## chrisd (Oct 11, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Such a short term view that so many of us have taken. I've no doubt the day will come when we regret leaving and want back in.
		
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I haven't taken a short term view. I was married when the first referendum was taken to join the "Common Market" and have lived through everything since, so I don't think things that I have personally witnessed since, haven't broadened my horizons and helped form my views of how we should carry on in the future. If we live to regret the decision it will only be because we cant see the future


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 11, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think that the next 5 to 10 years will determine if you are correct or not. If the EU implements reforms to appease the current anti EU feeling and moves back towards being a trading bloc with less of the political interference n you could be right. If it takes the opposite path and goes towards ever closer political union then I think you'll be wrong. 

But of course probably the biggest factor as to whether we regret leaving Will be the success or otherwise of the UK outside of the EU.
		
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First paragraph wasn't really what I was thinking. Long term, ever closer political, legal and economic union is the only sensible approach for the good of humanity, IMO. Obviously the U.K. is not in a place where the majority of its people are comfortable with that yet and clearly the benefits for the richer nations would be realised in much longer term than those for the poorer nations. I believe that, with or without us, the EU will eventually get it right and we will be all the poorer for not being part of it.

Second paragraph, yes that will probably be the main criterion applied by most.


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## Hobbit (Oct 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What is 'socialist' about what I have said.  I am speaking more from my Christian beliefs and values.  Peoples lives cannot be used as bargaining chips - to think otherwise is indeed callous.

But for a moment let's just put that aside and consider what the UK would actually do if the EU countries decided that UK nationals were no longer welcome (as unlikely as that is).  Tell me what the UK would then do if the EU 'calls our bluff'.
		
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I absolutely, totally agree with the sentiment. However, as others have said, its a divorce with both sides squabbling over the furniture. The EU, to protect itself and discourage other countries will play hard ball... they have no choice. And, if we are as it seems going down this road, I hope the UK does the same back. 

As for only eating English Breakfast being bad for you, so is only eating croissants.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 11, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			First paragraph wasn't really what I was thinking. Long term, ever closer political, legal and economic union is the only sensible approach for the good of humanity, IMO. Obviously the U.K. is not in a place where the majority of its people are comfortable with that yet and clearly the benefits for the richer nations would be realised in much longer term than those for the poorer nations. I believe that, with or without us, the EU will eventually get it right and we will be all the poorer for not being part of it.

Second paragraph, yes that will probably be the main criterion applied by most.
		
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Economic 'success' is one thing - I actually have quite some concern about the future health of the country - and I'm not talking physical health.


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## PieMan (Oct 11, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I think that the next 5 to 10 years will determine if you are correct or not. If the EU implements reforms to appease the current anti EU feeling and moves back towards being a trading bloc with less of the political interference n you could be right. If it takes the opposite path and goes towards ever closer political union then I think you'll be wrong.
		
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That's the problem, those Commissioners etc who actually run the EU have been saying for years that they need to reform, however they never do anything pro-active to bring these about! Look at how the UK referendum and result came about - David Cameron promised one to appease the Euro sceptics in his party, but was adamant that he could negotiate a better deal for the UK and ultimately get other EU leaders and the Commission to think about reforms. Ultimately the British electorate decided that the 'deal' he brought back wasn't good or far reaching enough so it was rejected. 

The way I see it, all those with anti-EU feelings across EU members states are mainly supporters of minority parties who have little or no chance of actually being elected. So look at what has happened in the EU since Brexit was announced - the EU leaders have had a lovely summit in Bratislava, which included a nice cruise and dinner down the Danube, and came out with the usual rhetoric about it's such a shame that the UK is leaving, the EU must look at a number of key issues, such as migration of workers etc, but nothing will come out of it.

The only way the EU will change is if a significant number of parties come into power in those EU Member States that were 'allies' of the UK on a number of policy issues (i.e. Belgium, Denmark, Sweden etc) and hold their own referendums on membership.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Economic 'success' is one thing - I actually have quite some concern about the future health of the country - and I'm not talking physical health.
		
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I quite agree. It was never about the economics for me although it is depressing as it becomes increasingly obvious that the most optimistic economic assessment is we're in for a "rough ride".


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 11, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I quite agree. It was never about the economics for me although it is depressing as it becomes increasingly obvious that the most optimistic economic assessment is we're in for a "rough ride".
		
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But then so is the EU.

And as for your confidence in the EU ultimately getting it right, well they have had over 60 years now. Like chrisd I was a married man with a mortgage etc; before we had the first referendum in 1975 and it was clear then that the EU was a bureaucrats dream.

However, I hoped then and again this year that it would overcome those difficulties and achieve the aim of being a grouping together in trade of broadly like minded nations.

Unfortunately this now seems increasingly unlikely  as the federalists desperately cling on to power in Brussels and Strasbourg, failing to acknowledge that their efforts to further their "United States of Europe" project is contributing to the growing dissatisfaction amongst the citizens of the member nations.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 11, 2016)

Those here who damn me as a pathetic remoaner should perhaps try downloading this morning's James O'Brien programme (LBC) - he's on at the moment.  If you do you'll hear your fellow Brexiteers defending their decision for why they voted to Leave and hear their views on the current situation, and you will also hear why I despair.  You want pathetic - go listen...

And in listening I now hear that his programme is being accused by Leave supporters in social media and texts etc to him of only putting through callers who haven't a clue.  QED.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 11, 2016)

Possibly why I'm so out of step with many posters here, a federal Europe sounds like a great concept to me. Surely must be the way to go in the long term or are we all too bound by petty nationalism?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 11, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Possibly why I'm so out of step with many posters here, a federal Europe sounds like a great concept to me. Surely must be the way to go in the long term or are we all too bound by petty nationalism?
		
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The support for independence in your home country, the Catalan and Basque movements in Spain, the proliferation of nations that was once Yugoslavia, Czech Republic and Slovakia etc; all suggests that many throughout the continent do not share your view.

A sense of national identity is not petty and differing national interests are not best served by European federalism.

I was and continue to be in favour of remaining within the EU but the prospect of a United States of Europe always has filled me with dread.


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## Hobbit (Oct 11, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Possibly why I'm so out of step with many posters here, a federal Europe sounds like a great concept to me. Surely must be the way to go in the long term or are we all too bound by petty nationalism?
		
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I love this concept. After all, who do you fight with if there's no national boundary. Unfortunately I just can't see it ever happening. Even supposedly modern, western countries appear to have areas where local nationalism exists... UK/Scotland independence for example.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 11, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I love this concept. After all, who do you fight with if there's no national boundary. Unfortunately I just can't see it ever happening. Even supposedly modern, western countries appear to have areas where local nationalism exists... UK/Scotland independence for example.
		
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Me too, which is why I feel brexit and Scottish independence etc are the wrong direction of travel...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 11, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Me too, which is why I feel brexit and Scottish independence etc are the wrong direction of travel...
		
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Yes - Except an independent Scotland would want to be in a Europe without boundaries - though there would be one with the rUK.  I'm sure if rUK wished to apply to rejoin the EU, then Scotland wouldn't oppose the application


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 11, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I love this concept. After all, who do you fight with if there's no national boundary. Unfortunately I just can't see it ever happening. Even supposedly modern, western countries appear to have areas where local nationalism exists... UK/Scotland independence for example.
		
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Having a sense of national identity is surely, in itself, no reason to wish to go to war with anyone.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - Except an independent Scotland would want to be in a Europe without boundaries - though there would be one with the rUK.
		
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Really does not make any sense.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Oct 11, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Such a short term view that so many of us have taken. I've no doubt the day will come when we regret leaving and want back in.
		
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^^ See below....




ColchesterFC said:



			I think that the next 5 to 10 years will determine if you are correct or not. If the EU implements reforms to appease the current anti EU feeling and moves back towards being a trading bloc with less of the political interference n you could be right. If it takes the opposite path and goes towards ever closer political union then I think you'll be wrong. 

But of course probably the biggest factor as to whether we regret leaving Will be the success or otherwise of the UK outside of the EU.
		
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I agree with this ^

I think the collapse of the EU is likely to happen. If it had remained a trading bloc then fine but trying to create a federal state with all the cultural differences was always going to be a step too far.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Oct 11, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I love this concept. After all, who do you fight with if there's no national boundary. Unfortunately I just can't see it ever happening. Even supposedly modern, western countries appear to have areas where local nationalism exists... UK/Scotland independence for example.
		
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The Irish managed to infight for years


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 11, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Really does not make any sense.
		
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And yet that is where we are. Another Indy ref is on the way and the nats will time it when the full implications of brexit are apparent and they are confident of winning.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 11, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Really does not make any sense.
		
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How so.  The SNP wish an independent Scotland to be in the EU - it cannot control what the rUK does.  If it turns out that Scotland ever becomes independent then it's status with the EU will be similar to what the UK's currently is (excepting probably membership of the euro).  

And when in the EU Scotland will be in the single market and will have the EU's trading relationship with rUK.  And if one day 50yrs hence the rUK decides that it wants to join the EU (it can't rejoin as it's the UK that left and the rUK that would be joining) then great.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 11, 2016)

Well there is one immediate consequence of all this.  I won't be able to afford a round of golf next week when I'm in the Algarve, what with the pound being so weak against the Euro. It will cost me a fortune....


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How so.  The SNP wish an independent Scotland to be in the EU - it cannot control what the rUK does.  If it turns out that Scotland ever becomes independent then it's status with the EU will be similar to what the UK's currently is (excepting probably membership of the euro).  

And when in the EU Scotland will be in the single market and will have the EU's trading relationship with rUK.  And if one day 50yrs hence the rUK decides that it wants to join the EU (it can't rejoin as it's the UK that left and the rUK that would be joining) then great.
		
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Disingenuous.

The SNP wanted independence from UK before Brexit, so it wanted separation from Westminster but would accept being governed by Brussels. That really makes no sense.

In any event the current state of the Scottish economy would need to improve or an independent Scotland would be likely to fail the EU's tests for new members.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 11, 2016)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...llion-a-year-may-tells-britain-20161011115152

Warning, contains ironic humour.


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## Hobbit (Oct 11, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - Except an independent Scotland would want to be in a Europe without boundaries - though there would be one with the rUK.  I'm sure if rUK wished to apply to rejoin the EU, then Scotland wouldn't oppose the application 

Click to expand...

SNP want independence, full stop... and that's something you've said previously. Brexit has very little to do with the SNP's wish for independence other than its another lever/vehicle for them to use.



MetalMickie said:



			Disingenuous.

The SNP wanted independence from UK before Brexit, so it wanted separation from Westminster but would accept being governed by Brussels. That really makes no sense.

In any event the current state of the Scottish economy would need to improve or an independent Scotland would be likely to fail the EU's tests for new members.
		
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spot on!


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 11, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Disingenuous.

The SNP wanted independence from UK before Brexit, *so it wanted separation from Westminster but would accept being governed by Brussels*. That really makes no sense.

In any event the current state of the Scottish economy would need to improve or an independent Scotland would be likely to fail the EU's tests for new members.
		
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I suppose it's the actual and perceived levels of devolution you get in both situations.  Some would are the UK is not governed by Brussels now, some would argue it is.


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## IanM (Oct 11, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I suppose it's the actual and perceived levels of devolution you get in both situations.  Some would are the UK is not governed by Brussels now, some would argue it is.
		
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An independent Scotland is in far better shape that Italy, Greece and Portugal............. but that's not saying much!  

I wonder what sort of economic state France and Germany will be in when they exclude us from their "Market" so we stop being able to but cars and wine from the former and cars and industrials from the latter?   

Who needs whom more?


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## Hobbit (Oct 11, 2016)

IanM said:



			An independent Scotland is in far better shape that Italy, Greece and Portugal............. but that's not saying much!  

I wonder what sort of economic state France and Germany will be in when they exclude us from their "Market" so we stop being able to but cars and wine from the former and cars and industrials from the latter?   

Who needs whom more?
		
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I'm sure VW will be happy losing Â£9 BILLION in car sales


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 11, 2016)

IanM said:



			An independent Scotland is in far better shape that Italy, Greece and Portugal............. but that's not saying much!  

I wonder what sort of economic state France and Germany will be in when they exclude us from their "Market" so we stop being able to but cars and wine from the former and cars and industrials from the latter?   

Who needs whom more?
		
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To keep the Scottish analogies going. To claim the Eu need the uk more than we need them is like saying the uk needs Scotland more than we need the uk.


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## IanM (Oct 11, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			To keep the Scottish analogies going. To claim the Eu need the uk more than we need them is like saying the uk needs Scotland more than we need the uk.
		
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Well the UK is a net contributor to the EU in terms of funds and has a negative balance of trade with the EU.  Not sure same could be said of Scotland and the UK


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 11, 2016)

Take away how rich a country/region is and Scotland appear to be best in the UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-37616226


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 11, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Take away how rich a country/region is and Scotland appear to be best in the UK.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-37616226

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Scotland top in UK with 74/100
Wales last in UK with 72/100.

Ergo England is c73/100. Not exactly a chasm.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 11, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Scotland top in UK with 74/100
Wales last in UK with 72/100.

Ergo England is c73/100. Not exactly a chasm.
		
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No, but still the best :lol:


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 11, 2016)

Hardly surprising when one of the criteria is "access to education" which at university level is free in Scotland. Wonder how the result would have looked without that measure.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 11, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Hardly surprising when one of the criteria is "access to education" which at university level is free in Scotland. Wonder how the result would have looked without that measure.
		
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You are starting to get picky now.

Perhaps if England and Wales had followed Scotland's lead they may have come top.
However.......they would have had to have made savings elsewhere to afford that route.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 11, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You are starting to get picky now.

Perhaps if England and Wales had followed Scotland's lead they may have come top.
However.......they would have had to have made savings elsewhere to afford that route.
		
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Or anticipated the same favourable treatment under the Barnett Formula.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 11, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Or anticipated the same favourable treatment under the Barnett Formula.
		
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Please explain the Barnett formula,.
As you are quoting it I assume you understand it ?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 11, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Please explain the Barnett formula,.
As you are quoting it I assume you understand it ?
		
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Yes and I also see through the SNP's efforts to discredit it as a measure since it does not suit their argument.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 11, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Yes and I also see through the SNP's efforts to discredit it as a measure since it does not suit their argument.
		
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Please explain both then ?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 11, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Please explain both then ?
		
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Even you must realise that a forum such as this is not the place for that but I am sure that if you undertake a little research you will be able to find the information you require.

If not please contact SNP HQ as they are again hoping to take advantage of its generosity.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 11, 2016)

You are the one quoting it so I assumed you had some knowledge.
I have tried to understand it but it is beyond my ken. [and many others I think]

The fact that it was introduced by a Tory Scottish Minister to garner praise from Margaret Thatcher makes me think that it is no friend of Scotland.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 11, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You are the one quoting it so I assumed you had some knowledge.
I have tried to understand it but it is beyond my ken. [and many others I think]

The fact that it was introduced by a Tory Scottish Minister to garner praise from Margaret Thatcher makes me think that it is no friend of Scotland.
		
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Clearly!

Joel Barnett was Treasury Secretary in the Callaghan (Labour) Government.


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## Hobbit (Oct 11, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No, but still the best :lol:
		
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Hardly surprising. Wide open spaces, more spent per head on education and healthcare (by a spendthrift SNP).


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## Hobbit (Oct 11, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Clearly!

Joel Barnett was Treasury Secretary in the Callaghan (Labour) Government.
		
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And in recent times has said it's past it's sell by date.


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## jp5 (Oct 11, 2016)

Quite the watch / listen.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/which-eu-law-are-you-looking-forward-to-losing/


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 12, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I'm sure VW will be happy losing Â£9 BILLION in car sales
		
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So a 10% (let's say) import tariff our government puts on imports from Germany increases the cost of a new VW golf from Â£18,600 to Â£20,460.  Would that stop you buying one?  

I wonder how much the monthly payment for buying one over four years finance would go up.  For simplicity I'll assume import tax adds Â£2000 increment over 50months - that's Â£40/month.  I know it doesn't work this way but maybe add 25% interest over the period so that's Â£500 interest - and that's Â£10/month.  Makes our import tariff delta equivalent to Â£50/month.  Will that stop you buying a new VW?

And besides - will we all be driving UK built cars as these could be the only ones not having an import tax applied?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 12, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Quite the watch / listen.

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/which-eu-law-are-you-looking-forward-to-losing/

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...and basically all those who called in to explain to James O'B why they voted to Leave were like this - though this fella was one of the 'best'.  At times it was almost funny - if it wasn't for the fact that Ashley, and many folk with just as much grasp of the Brexit issues and impact on leaving, were those who have got us out of the EU into the mess we are in.  Thanks Ashley - hope the business goes well.


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## Hobbit (Oct 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So a 10% (let's say) import tariff our government puts on imports from Germany increases the cost of a new VW golf from Â£18,600 to Â£20,460.  Would that stop you buying one?  

I wonder how much the monthly payment for buying one over four years finance would go up.  For simplicity I'll assume import tax adds Â£2000 increment over 50months - that's Â£40/month.  I know it doesn't work this way but maybe add 25% interest over the period so that's Â£500 interest - and that's Â£10/month.  Makes our import tariff delta equivalent to Â£50/month.  Will that stop you buying a new VW?

And besides - will we all be driving UK built cars as these could be the only ones not having an import tax applied?
		
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So, basically, you've created an imaginary scenario that supports your argument.

Here's a scenario based on fact. German businesses have been lobbying their government, asking for a free trade agreement with the U.K.

As to would I stick with VW or would I switch brands? If everyone went for the cheapest car now no one would be driving VW anyway. We would all be driving a Kia. People will pay a fair price whatever that price is. If they perceive that VW provide value for money they will continue to buy VW.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 12, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			So, basically, you've created an imaginary scenario that supports your argument.

Here's a scenario based on fact. German businesses have been lobbying their government, asking for a free trade agreement with the U.K.

*As to would I stick with VW or would I switch brands? If everyone went for the cheapest car now no one would be driving VW anyway. We would all be driving a Kia. People will pay a fair price whatever that price is. If they perceive that VW provide value for money they will continue to buy VW.*

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And this is all I am saying by estimating the impact on car prices if 10% tariff is applied to German car imports.

A lot is made of Germany not imposing tariffs with us because they wouldn't want us to impose tariffs on their cars - because look at the business the car industry in Germany would lose - but in practice I don't think they'd lose very much business at all (if any).  So are the Germans going to be really that worried about a drop in car exports to the UK?  I don't think so.  This is put up as a significant bargaining chip we have with the Germans - I doubt it is that useful a chip.

Your general point is what some German businesses are saying - fair enough - but I don't know if their car industry is part of that.

The Â£18,600 is the current price of a new entry level VW Golf SV


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## Foxholer (Oct 12, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Possibly why I'm so out of step with many posters here, a federal Europe sounds like a great concept to me. Surely must be the way to go in the long term or are we all too bound by petty nationalism?
		
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Federalism CAN work well! USA, Canada and Australia are examples - with a single language 'uniting' them. Germany is too, but is a relatively young federation!  Malaysia and India are federations with multiple languages.

Europe does seem to have too many diverse cultures, languages and other 'national identity' traits to ever be a 'real' federation (imo), but there are obvious advantages to moving some way in that direction - Standards, Customs (Single Market) and Visa/Passport processing being obvious ones.

I don't believe there'll ever be a 'United States of Europe'! However, some of the ideas of those running the EU - for example an EU Army and the EU's own Human Rights Charter - seem to be steps too far towards central 'control'!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 12, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Federalism CAN work well! USA, Canada and Australia are examples - with a single language 'uniting' them. Germany is too, but is a relatively young federation!  Malaysia and India are federations with multiple languages.

Europe does seem to have too many diverse cultures, languages and other 'national identity' traits to ever be a 'real' federation (imo), but there are obvious advantages to moving some way in that direction - Standards, Customs (Single Market) and Visa/Passport processing being obvious ones.

I don't believe there'll ever be a 'United States of Europe'! However, some of the ideas of those running the EU - for example an EU Army and the EU's own Human Rights Charter - seem to be steps too far towards central 'control'!
		
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Absolutely sums up my position on the issue.

Fair, common trading and ease of movement between nation states, but much beyond that is going too far.


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## MarkE (Oct 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No - not tosh and not naÃ¯ve MarkE - callous - as it appears that you are happy to be described.  

The EU never wanted this.  You cannot blame the EU for any of this.  It is all of our own making.  The EU nationals resident in the UK are here legally and most are fully integrated into society as friends, colleagues, lovers, classmates, husbands and wives.  Our political bargaining with the EU should go nowhere near bartering in people - that should be unconscionable for our society and it is frankly disgusting that some think it OK.
		
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No, i'm not happy to be described as callous. I did'nt say I agree with the use of people as bargaining chips, just that it's a fact of political life and getting precious about it won't stop it. In your utopian world there would'nt be any need for actions like that from those in charge, nor wars or terrorism, but in real life these things do happen. I'm as outraged as the next man, but that won't change anything.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 12, 2016)

Anyone listen to John Redwood on Newsnight last night - being interviewed by the inestimable Kirsty Wark.  Hmmm.

Apparently we won't need to even consider that we might have to pay into the EU for access to single market or give anything of significance in any deal - as the EU will be so keen to trade with us that we will be able to define the terms of any agreement and the EU will grab it with both hands.  

As far as EU financial services passports and EU customs union?  What's the problem - we don't need them - we are UK.  Now that would be nice.

I found his complacency rather worrying.  Brilliant if he is right


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 12, 2016)

MarkE said:



			No, i'm not happy to be described as callous. I did'nt say I agree with the use of people as bargaining chips, just that it's a fact of political life and getting precious about it won't stop it. In your utopian world there would'nt be any need for actions like that from those in charge, nor wars or terrorism, but in real life these things do happen. I'm as outraged as the next man, but that won't change anything.
		
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It's NOT a utopian world - it's a world of fairness and compassion around peoples lives when we - the UK - do not need to throw these lives into chaos.   There is no imperative or actual need to ask EU citizens legally in the UK to go, they are already here - they are part of us now.

If it's such a great bargaining chip what do you suggest the UK does if (in the very unlikely event) the EU calls our bluff and ask UK citizens resident in the EU to leave,  what do you think the UK should do.  A bargaining chip isn't worth a zlotty if it can be ignored as having no benefit, drawback or consequence.


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## Hobbit (Oct 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And this is all I am saying by estimating the impact on car prices if 10% tariff is applied to German car imports.

A lot is made of Germany not imposing tariffs with us because they wouldn't want us to impose tariffs on their cars - because look at the business the car industry in Germany would lose - but in practice I don't think they'd lose very much business at all (if any).  So are the Germans going to be really that worried about a drop in car exports to the UK?  I don't think so.  This is put up as a significant bargaining chip we have with the Germans - I doubt it is that useful a chip.

Your general point is what some German businesses are saying - fair enough - but I don't know if their car industry is part of that.

The Â£18,600 is the current price of a new entry level VW Golf SV
		
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"I don't think so" means you're guessing.

"I don't know if their car industry is part of it" means you're guessing again.

VAG = Volkswagen Audi Group is one of the companies that is lobbying its government. And that's not guessing.

Will the EU impose tariffs? I don't know and neither do you.

Will we have to pay an "access fee" to trade? I don't know, but the USA doesn't... Will we, won't we? I don't know and neither do you... that's what the negotiations will decide.

We know what might happen, and we hear plenty of doom and gloom from the Remain camp(still).

Why is the pound falling as far as it is? Someone is selling short. Is it currency speculators or is it the EU teaching the UK a lesson


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 12, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			"I don't think so" means you're guessing.

"I don't know if their car industry is part of it" means you're guessing again.

VAG = Volkswagen Audi Group is one of the companies that is lobbying its government. And that's not guessing.

Will the EU impose tariffs? I don't know and neither do you.

Will we have to pay an "access fee" to trade? I don't know, but the USA doesn't... Will we, won't we? I don't know and neither do you... that's what the negotiations will decide.

We know what might happen, and we hear plenty of doom and gloom from the Remain camp(still).

Why is the pound falling as far as it is? Someone is selling short. Is it currency speculators or is it the EU teaching the UK a lesson
		
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You are correct - we don't know very much at the moment.

Though a lot of Brexiteer talk is of how it'll all be fine *because *the Germans won't want to hurt their own business.  Or how we *will *be able to agree excellent trade deals quite easy because other countries will be desperate to keep trading with us - in fact some say the others should be paying *us *as our market is so attractive.  OI hope that they are right.

Nobody knows anything about what we want at the moment, and Maid May and her Merrie Band of Brexiteers are unwilling to tell us anything - other than _Breakfast means Breakfast_ and it looks like they prefer _the Full English._


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## jp5 (Oct 12, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			We know what might happen, and we hear plenty of doom and gloom from the Remain camp(still).
		
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It's not doom and gloom - it's holding to account. If the Leave side are so sure of their stance they shouldn't have any issue debating it.



Hobbit said:



			Why is the pound falling as far as it is? Someone is selling short. Is it currency speculators or is it the EU teaching the UK a lesson
		
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That's a new one - the EU pushing down the value of the pound.

Having dropped 28% vs the USD since the referendum, I wonder when we'll start to feel it in terms of supermarket prices, energy bills, fuel etc.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 12, 2016)

jp5 said:



			It's not doom and gloom - it's holding to account. If the Leave side are so sure of their stance they shouldn't have any issue debating it.



That's a new one - the EU pushing down the value of the pound.

Having dropped 28% vs the USD since the referendum, I wonder when we'll start to feel it in terms of supermarket prices, energy bills, fuel etc.
		
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It's started already, have you seen the price of French beans.


A wee joke.......... [for the benefit of the Ashleys of this Country]


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## Foxholer (Oct 12, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			...
Why is the pound falling as far as it is? Someone is selling short. Is it currency speculators or is it the EU teaching the UK a lesson
		
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It's currency speculators! governments - even the EU - don't have enough cash, compared to 'markets in general' to manipulate markets like you suggest they might be! Still, the lower the GBP goes, the higher the FTSE goes - currently!

Btw. GBP is finally sneaking up (a little) today! And the FTSE is currently slightly down!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 12, 2016)

jp5 said:



			It's not doom and gloom - it's holding to account. If the Leave side are so sure of their stance they shouldn't have any issue debating it.



That's a new one - the EU pushing down the value of the pound.

Having dropped 28% vs the USD since the referendum, I wonder when we'll start to feel it in terms of supermarket prices, energy bills, fuel etc.
		
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Fuel likely to be up 5p/litre by end of the month due to the value of the pound, just imagine the fuss if a chancellor proposed a measure that would add 5p to each litre of fuel.  There would mayhemm, outrage - and if it had been Gordie Broon - gawd help us for the racket the Daily Squeal would have put up


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 12, 2016)

jp5 said:



*It's not doom and gloom - it's holding to account.* If the Leave side are so sure of their stance they shouldn't have any issue debating it.



That's a new one - the EU pushing down the value of the pound.

Having dropped 28% vs the USD since the referendum, I wonder when we'll start to feel it in terms of supermarket prices, energy bills, fuel etc.
		
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+1 on that.  Those of us who did not want to Leave cannot just sit back in a grump and huff and act as if Brexit has now got nothing to do with us,  because it has - hugely.  

And so it is incumbent upon us to question, question, question - to make sure that our government knows that actually we care and want things to work out for all of the UK and not just for those with massive Leave agendas to be pandered to by measures driven by political exigencies and expediency - rather than what is best for us all economically, culturally and socially.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Fuel likely to be up 5p/litre by end of the month due to the value of the pound, just imagine the fuss if a chancellor proposed a measure that would add 5p to each litre of fuel.  There would mayhemm, outrage - and if it had been Gordie Broon - gawd help us for the racket the Daily Squeal would have put up
		
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Actually the anticipated rise in fuel prices is as much to do with the global rise in the price of oil as it is the fall in the value of sterling.

Please don't remind us all of "the son of the manse" that was G Brown.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are correct - we don't know very much at the moment.

Though a lot of Brexiteer talk is of how it'll all be fine *because *the Germans won't want to hurt their own business.  Or how we *will *be able to agree excellent trade deals quite easy because other countries will be desperate to keep trading with us - in fact some say the others should be paying *us *as our market is so attractive.  OI hope that they are right.

Nobody knows anything about what we want at the moment, and Maid May and her Merrie Band of Brexiteers are unwilling to tell us anything - other than _Breakfast means Breakfast_ and it looks like they prefer _the Full English._

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I wish you would stop using that 'Breakfast means Breakfast'  it wasnt really funny the first time now it's bordering on childish!

Of course our Government know what they want from the EU but they wont be coming back to you to ratify it at every stage      If they were to negotiate a ceasefire with the russians do you think they should ask the country to ratify the conditions before any meeting, it's crass stupidity to think the detail of international negotiations should be subject to referendum and Westminster approval before the start of talks.   I despair at the attitudes of many people these days.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So a 10% (let's say) import tariff our government puts on imports from Germany increases the cost of a new VW golf from Â£18,600 to Â£20,460.  Would that stop you buying one?  

I wonder how much the monthly payment for buying one over four years finance would go up.  For simplicity I'll assume import tax adds Â£2000 increment over 50months - that's Â£40/month.  I know it doesn't work this way but maybe add 25% interest over the period so that's Â£500 interest - and that's Â£10/month.  Makes our import tariff delta equivalent to Â£50/month.  Will that stop you buying a new VW?

And besides - will we all be driving UK built cars as these could be the only ones not having an import tax applied?
		
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The Government have already said they want to be champions of free trade, and tariffs applied would be as a result of other countries applying them to us.   no one would win in a tariff war and I suspect the EU would think very hard before getting into a trade conflict.


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## vkurup (Oct 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Fuel likely to be up 5p/litre by end of the month due to the value of the pound, just imagine the fuss if a chancellor proposed a measure that would add 5p to each litre of fuel.  There would mayhemm, outrage - and if it had been Gordie Broon - gawd help us for the racket the Daily Squeal would have put up
		
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While I don't know if I change my choice of cars, but it has impact on everyday essentials. Oil has gone up globally and drop in GBP won't help.  More interesting and hitting the pocket are things like Marmite, Soap etc.  The Tesco v Unilever is interesting.. 

Tesco in dispute with Unilever over price rises http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37637954


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## MarkE (Oct 12, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's NOT a utopian world - it's a world of fairness and compassion around peoples lives when we - the UK - do not need to throw these lives into chaos.   There is no imperative or actual need to ask EU citizens legally in the UK to go, they are already here - they are part of us now.

If it's such a great bargaining chip what do you suggest the UK does if (in the very unlikely event) the EU calls our bluff and ask UK citizens resident in the EU to leave,  what do you think the UK should do.  A bargaining chip isn't worth a zlotty if it can be ignored as having no benefit, drawback or consequence.
		
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A world of fairness and compassion, is it? Not that i've noticed. As for what I think we should do, leave people alone to live their lives and certainly not evict anyone who is already here. But this issue will be discussed in negotiations  however unsavoury we may think it to be.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 13, 2016)

MarkE said:



			A world of fairness and compassion, is it? Not that i've noticed. As for what I think we should do, leave people alone to live their lives and certainly not evict anyone who is already here. But this issue will be discussed in negotiations  however unsavoury we may think it to be.
		
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Not saying that it is - but no need to actively make it one of misery and unfairness for others if we don't have to.  I am pleased we agree - we won't be evicting anyone - even if the EU does call our bluff and tells UK nationals to leave (which it won't).  So no point at all in UK pretending that it is a valid bargaining chip with the accompanying sword of Damocles hanging over the immigrant community.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 13, 2016)

And so the fun continues after yesterday's debate in which Dave Davies clarified precisely.........

 Let's see what NicolaS says today about _Breakfast means Breakfast_ means exit the EU does not mean exit the single market.


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## ger147 (Oct 13, 2016)

Meanwhile elsewhere, we still have folks who lost the vote stamping their feet about it, and unfortunately at considerable cost to the tax payer...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37639307


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## vkurup (Oct 13, 2016)

Yipee..... We are back into having another Scottish Ref.. 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37634338 

How many Brexiters agree that Scotland should go its way if it wants to?  If they dont agree with Scotland wanting its own sovereignty, then why not?


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## jp5 (Oct 13, 2016)

ger147 said:



			Meanwhile elsewhere, we still have folks who lost the vote stamping their feet about it, and unfortunately at considerable cost to the tax payer...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37639307

Click to expand...

It's an entirely reasonable case.


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## jp5 (Oct 13, 2016)

Can't complain about Scotland wanting to go it alone, especially after we told them the only way of remaining in the EU was to stick with the UK!


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## Hobbit (Oct 13, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Yipee..... We are back into having another Scottish Ref.. 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-37634338 

How many Brexiters agree that Scotland should go its way if it wants to?  If they dont agree with Scotland wanting its own sovereignty, then why not?
		
Click to expand...

As a Remainer I agree with what the SNP want to do. If they feel the people of Scotland would prefer to leave the UK and be part of the EU, that's their choice. Why should they be forced into something they don't want? Freedom for Yorkshire!!


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 13, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			As a Remainer I agree with what the SNP want to do. If they feel the people of Scotland would prefer to leave the UK and be part of the EU, that's their choice. Why should they be forced into something they don't want? Freedom for Yorkshire!!
		
Click to expand...

We don't though, and they know it so all they are doing is making a bad situation worse to cater for their twisted ideology. They damn near ripped the country apart last time. I lost friends and nearly lost others. Just sickening this nasty party are taking us down the road again.


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## vkurup (Oct 13, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			We don't though, *and they know it *so all they are doing is making a bad situation worse to cater for their twisted ideology. They damn near ripped the country apart last time. I lost friends and nearly lost others. Just sickening this nasty party are taking us down the road again.
		
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Well most of us that we wanted to Remain, how wrong were we.. I would not be surprised if the Indy Ref wins this time and they lower the voting age to 7 to achieve it.  Let them go.. we started this roll, why stop it?
.. Supporting London to join EU


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 13, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Well most of us that we wanted to Remain, how wrong were we.. I would not be surprised if the Indy Ref wins this time and they lower the voting age to 7 to achieve it.  Let them go.. we started this roll, why stop it?
.. Supporting London to join EU
		
Click to expand...

50% don't want another referendum, only 37% do. The SNP going ahead anyway.


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## Hobbit (Oct 13, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			50% don't want another referendum, only 37% do. The SNP going ahead anyway.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe the consultation doc they've sent out will tell them what they need to spend the money they haven't got to achieve independence.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 13, 2016)

How many times......Scotland can only spend what Westminster gives them. It is impossible to 'overspend'.

Now remind me, what is the total of the UK national debt?


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## Hobbit (Oct 13, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How many times......Scotland can only spend what Westminster gives them. It is impossible to 'overspend'.

Now remind me, what is the total of the UK national debt?
		
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Please explain how the deficit went up?

oh, that's right. The Treasury south of the border bailed Scotland out by covering the overspend. I wonder what delta % increase of the UK's national debt is down to a spendthrift SNP government?


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 13, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Please explain how the deficit went up?

oh, that's right. The Treasury south of the border bailed Scotland out by covering the overspend. I wonder what delta % increase of the UK's national debt is down to a spendthrift SNP government?
		
Click to expand...

As you well know ...very little.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 13, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How many times......Scotland can only spend what Westminster gives them. It is impossible to 'overspend'.

Now remind me, what is the total of the UK national debt?
		
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Approx Â£75 bn, of which approx 20% is Scotland's share. Yet Scotland's population is around 9% of the total for the UK.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 13, 2016)

Before the vote Unilever boss says prices will go up if we vote to Leave - Project Fear! Project Fear! the outraged cry went up.  And lo...it came to pass.  Project Con! Project Con! the cry goes up - pioces rises nothing to do with Brexit.  And the experts (never listen to experts what do they know?) tell us that this is just the start of things to come.  Ah well.  Guess we have to just stomach this for reclaiming control and parliamentary sovereignty - oh wait a minute...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 13, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			50% don't want another referendum, only 37% do. The SNP going ahead anyway.
		
Click to expand...

@FD - you know fine well that that is not what NicolaS announced today.  The draft IndyRef2 Bill will be drafted and stuck on the shelf and NicolaS deems it timely to take it off - and I am guessing that that is not going to be for at least 2 yrs and then only when the majority want it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 13, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Approx Â£75 bn, of which approx 20% is Scotland's share. Yet Scotland's population is around 9% of the total for the UK.
		
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Really, why would 9% of the UK be responsible for 20% of the total debt ?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 13, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Really, why would 9% of the UK be responsible for 20% of the total debt ?
		
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Because the SNP administration is a grouping of feckless financially irresponsible populists and Scotland's economy is too dependent upon the Public Sector. North Sea oil revenues are only a fraction of what they once were etc; etc;

I am, of course, sure you will have an alternative theory.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 13, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Because the SNP administration is a grouping of feckless financially irresponsible populists and Scotland's economy is too dependent upon the Public Sector. North Sea oil revenues are only a fraction of what they once were etc; etc;

I am, of course, sure you will have an alternative theory.
		
Click to expand...

Aye, right.
Meanwhile the 94% UK debt share [minus Scotland] is well under control, especially with the sinking Â£.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 13, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			@FD - you know fine well that that is not what NicolaS announced today.  The draft IndyRef2 Bill will be drafted and stuck on the shelf and NicolaS deems it timely to take it off - and I am guessing that that is not going to be for at least 2 yrs and then only when the majority want it.
		
Click to expand...

Yip. She was very careful not to commit to any timescales beyond producing the draft bill.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 13, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Aye, right.
Meanwhile the 94% UK debt share [minus Scotland] is well under control, especially with the sinking Â£.
		
Click to expand...


No wonder you can't understand the Barnett Formula

How can 100% less 20% equate to 94%.


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## Hobbit (Oct 14, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			No wonder you can't understand the Barnett Formula

How can 100% less 20% equate to 94%.
		
Click to expand...

He doesn't want to understand more like. He's had the numbers many times but chooses to twist, squirm or ignore... reminds me of the first Indyref - aye right.


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## IanM (Oct 14, 2016)

Politicians know best... democracy means you'll keep voting till you get the answer we want!    I suspect the 2nd EU Referendum will take place before the 2nd Scottish one


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2016)

Impact of Barnett? Economic impact of Brexit could well  be to drive public spending cuts (at least in the short-med term) and drive up inflation.  Spending cuts will flow through to Scotland via the Barnett formula grant - and inflation will hit prices north of the border and (as usual) the poorest will suffer.  The Scottish government could of course raise more finances to cover grant cuts through a tax increase - and they would try and sell that to the Scottish public as being a result of English voting Brexit and the Tory Government in Westminster implementing the necessary cuts - once more playing into the hands of the SNP and other Indy supporters.


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## Hobbit (Oct 14, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Impact of Barnett? Economic impact of Brexit could well  be to drive public spending cuts (at least in the short-med term) and drive up inflation.  Spending cuts will flow through to Scotland via the Barnett formula grant - and inflation will hit prices north of the border and (as usual) the poorest will suffer.  The Scottish government could of course raise more finances to cover grant cuts through a tax increase - and they would try and sell that to the Scottish public as being a result of English voting Brexit and the Tory Government in Westminster implementing the necessary cuts - once more playing into the hands of the SNP and other Indy supporters.
		
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A quick question, is the Scottish Block Grant the payment made under the Barnett formulae?


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## Foxholer (Oct 14, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			A quick question, is the Scottish Block Grant the payment made under the Barnett formulae?
		
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Yes!


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## Hobbit (Oct 14, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Yes!
		
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Thank you!!


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## Dellboy (Oct 14, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			If they feel the people of Scotland would prefer to leave the UK and be part of the EU, that's their choice.
		
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Even if they voted to leave ( which I hope they do ) they will not be a part of the EU, when we leave we do so as Great Britain.

Cant see the EU wanting Scotland to join and if they did it would take many...many years to do so, thats even if the EU is still going by then


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## ger147 (Oct 14, 2016)

Spain making another play for Gibraltar i.e. if the UK leaves the EU then Gibraltar is out too, unless the UK accepts joint sovereignty with Spain.


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## hors limite (Oct 14, 2016)

I am really struggling to understand where we are supposed to be heading with the Brexit project. The impact on immigration when you've counted in all the exceptions that are being talked about is looking to be modest. Conversely, the adverse economic impact seems to be frighteningly difficult to quantify.
The fall in the pound might have been good for exporters if we had the manufacturing base of a Germany. As we haven't it isn't as it will drive up the cost of imports leading to inflation and an erosion of real incomes which will impact the poorest. I read that one of the biggest and most successful industries is the financial sector and the impact of Brexit in this area seems only to threaten a negative impact. Returning to the exports of goods, we have done very well in attracting inward investment from especially the Japanese. The Japanese government has already warned of their concerns and Nissan has halted further investment.
I have heard the argument that the EU will not want to apply tariffs to Uk goods as they will fear a similar treatment of their exports. I hope that the Brexit camp is right. However, the downside to the UK economy appears to huge compared to the upside of a smallish reduction in immigration and that nebulous  recapturing of"sovereignty".
I would like to see a series of opinion polls between now and the Article 50 deadline. There were false fears and arguments peddled by both sides leading up to the vote.It would be foolish, whether through a misplaced sense of pride or through a narrow political self interest, to rule out any possibility of revisiting the question if it emerged that there had been a substantial change of heart.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2016)

hors limite said:



			I am really struggling to understand where we are supposed to be heading with the Brexit project. The impact on immigration when you've counted in all the exceptions that are being talked about is looking to be modest. Conversely, the adverse economic impact seems to be frighteningly difficult to quantify.
The fall in the pound might have been good for exporters if we had the manufacturing base of a Germany. As we haven't it isn't as it will drive up the cost of imports leading to inflation and an erosion of real incomes which will impact the poorest. I read that one of the biggest and most successful industries is the financial sector and the impact of Brexit in this area seems only to threaten a negative impact. Returning to the exports of goods, we have done very well in attracting inward investment from especially the Japanese. The Japanese government has already warned of their concerns and Nissan has halted further investment.
I have heard the argument that the EU will not want to apply tariffs to Uk goods as they will fear a similar treatment of their exports. I hope that the Brexit camp is right. However, the downside to the UK economy appears to huge compared to the upside of a smallish reduction in immigration and that nebulous  recapturing of"sovereignty".
I would like to see a series of opinion polls between now and the Article 50 deadline. There were false fears and arguments peddled by both sides leading up to the vote.It would be foolish, whether through a misplaced sense of pride or through a narrow political self interest, to rule out any possibility of revisiting the question if it emerged that there had been a substantial change of heart.
		
Click to expand...

Ach will you stop talking sense


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## harpo_72 (Oct 14, 2016)

hors limite said:



			I am really struggling to understand where we are supposed to be heading with the Brexit project. The impact on immigration when you've counted in all the exceptions that are being talked about is looking to be modest. Conversely, the adverse economic impact seems to be frighteningly difficult to quantify.
The fall in the pound might have been good for exporters if we had the manufacturing base of a Germany. As we haven't it isn't as it will drive up the cost of imports leading to inflation and an erosion of real incomes which will impact the poorest. I read that one of the biggest and most successful industries is the financial sector and the impact of Brexit in this area seems only to threaten a negative impact. Returning to the exports of goods, we have done very well in attracting inward investment from especially the Japanese. The Japanese government has already warned of their concerns and Nissan has halted further investment.
I have heard the argument that the EU will not want to apply tariffs to Uk goods as they will fear a similar treatment of their exports. I hope that the Brexit camp is right. However, the downside to the UK economy appears to huge compared to the upside of a smallish reduction in immigration and that nebulous  recapturing of"sovereignty".
I would like to see a series of opinion polls between now and the Article 50 deadline. There were false fears and arguments peddled by both sides leading up to the vote.It would be foolish, whether through a misplaced sense of pride or through a narrow political self interest, to rule out any possibility of revisiting the question if it emerged that there had been a substantial change of heart.
		
Click to expand...

blue touch paper ignited ..... all fair points but not open for discussion because the imaginary benefits out weigh them conclusively.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 14, 2016)

hors limite said:



			I would like to see a series of opinion polls between now and the Article 50 deadline. There were false fears and arguments peddled by both sides leading up to the vote.It would be foolish, whether through a misplaced sense of pride or through a narrow political self interest, to rule out any possibility of revisiting the question if it emerged that there had been a substantial change of heart.
		
Click to expand...

While I agree with much of your post what would constitute a "substantial change of heart"? And would we be basing that purely on opinion polls which got it massively wrong before the last general election and the referendum?

If we were to hold a second referendum and this time the result was to remain in the EU would we simply be able to carry on with the deal we have now as we haven't yet triggered Article 50? If it was held after that point would we have to apply to rejoin rather than remain as we had triggered the process of leaving? And would there then be calls for a 3rd and deciding referendum as to whether the terms of us rejoining were acceptable?


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## hors limite (Oct 14, 2016)

I was hoping to hear the Brexiteers cogent analysis of the upside and was prepared to try and appreciate it.


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## vkurup (Oct 15, 2016)

So looks like the media lapped up the Unilever-Marmite-Tesco story and if you think this was a issue for multinationals giants then here is anecdote that I hadn't thought about before. 
Visiting the farmer markets and the guys are feeling the impact. They think that they won't find east Europeans to pick fruits and veg or pay double the rate to find 'locals' who they can't find anyways.  So they will either have to double the rates they charge customers and therefore drive away customers or they reduce their production.. this bres*it is hitting everyone....


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## Hobbit (Oct 15, 2016)

vkurup said:



			So looks like the media lapped up the Unilever-Marmite-Tesco story and if you think this was a issue for multinationals giants then here is anecdote that I hadn't thought about before. 
Visiting the farmer markets and the guys are feeling the impact. They think that they won't find east Europeans to pick fruits and veg or pay double the rate to find 'locals' who they can't find anyways.  So they will either have to double the rates they charge customers and therefore drive away customers or they reduce their production.. this bres*it is hitting everyone....
		
Click to expand...

Bit of a double edged sword this one. The unions, and half of Labour, have complained many times about the imported labour driving down wages in this sector, and in other industries too.


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## IainP (Oct 15, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			While I agree with much of your post what would constitute a "substantial change of heart"? And would we be basing that purely on opinion polls which got it massively wrong before the last general election and the referendum?

If we were to hold a second referendum and this time the result was to remain in the EU would we simply be able to carry on with the deal we have now as we haven't yet triggered Article 50? If it was held after that point would we have to apply to rejoin rather than remain as we had triggered the process of leaving? And would there then be calls for a 3rd and deciding referendum as to whether the terms of us rejoining were acceptable?
		
Click to expand...

Good points.
I am relatively agnostic to whichever direction the country goes, but would want it to be done with full commitment.
So either fully commit to EU, closer ties, the Euro, the whole shebang
Or leave.
Just trying for some partial status quo whilst it may have felt familiar and comfortable doesn't feel like a strategy


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## harpo_72 (Oct 15, 2016)

IainP said:



			Good points.
I am relatively agnostic to whichever direction the country goes, but would want it to be done with full commitment.
So either fully commit to EU, closer ties, the Euro, the whole shebang
Or leave.
Just trying for some partial status quo whilst it may have felt familiar and comfortable doesn't feel like a strategy
		
Click to expand...

there lies the problem, what did the brexiteers vote for "hard" exit or a connected exit ... I don't think a connected exit is impossible but it would require diplomacy of the highest order.
My ideal solution is the EU becomes /goes back to its routes and concentrates on its trade partnerships. It was worrying that it was growing and having paper economies join it which were always going to be a liability. I have no issues with the redistribution of wealth amongst the members if they have met the financial requirements (Greece never did and there are a few more) . 
I don't really understand how immigration will be changed if we exit. We always had our border controls and those EU migrants are skilled labour so where is the difference ? Should we exit the commonwealth as well, we get a shed load of them over .....? Oh that might not be PC.


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## IainP (Oct 15, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			there lies the problem, what did the brexiteers vote for "hard" exit or a connected exit ... I don't think a connected exit is impossible but it would require diplomacy of the highest order.
My ideal solution is the EU becomes /goes back to its routes and concentrates on its trade partnerships. It was worrying that it was growing and having paper economies join it which were always going to be a liability. I have no issues with the redistribution of wealth amongst the members if they have met the financial requirements (Greece never did and there are a few more) . 
I don't really understand how immigration will be changed if we exit. We always had our border controls and those EU migrants are skilled labour so where is the difference ? Should we exit the commonwealth as well, we get a shed load of them over .....? Oh that might not be PC.
		
Click to expand...

I don't really like the catchwords (would UKexit have been more accurate?).
As has been said before the referendum didn't have multiple options so we'll never know.
Could easily ask the other way around using the catchwords -
Were the"remainers" voting for the partial status quo, or full on EU?


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## Hobbit (Oct 15, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			there lies the problem, what did the brexiteers vote for "hard" exit or a connected exit ... I don't think a connected exit is impossible but it would require diplomacy of the highest order.
My ideal solution is the EU becomes /goes back to its routes and concentrates on its trade partnerships. It was worrying that it was growing and having paper economies join it which were always going to be a liability. I have no issues with the redistribution of wealth amongst the members if they have met the financial requirements (Greece never did and there are a few more) . 
I don't really understand how immigration will be changed if we exit. We always had our border controls and those EU migrants are skilled labour so where is the difference ? Should we exit the commonwealth as well, we get a shed load of them over .....? Oh that might not be PC.
		
Click to expand...

Excellent post.

Immigration will almost certainly continue as is. Who will pick the crops? Where do we suddenly get xxx medical staff from? Where is the next plumber?

The immigration issue that needs addressing, and that's right across the EU, are those coming from outside the EU. 

Many of the issues in the U.K. are of our own (fumbling) making. Even something simple like why do teachers have to work on average 7 hours a week longer than their European counterparts?


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## harpo_72 (Oct 15, 2016)

IainP said:



			I don't really like the catchwords (would UKexit have been more accurate?).
As has been said before the referendum didn't have multiple options so we'll never know.
Could easily ask the other way around using the catchwords -
Were the"remainers" voting for the partial status quo, or full on EU?
		
Click to expand...

True ... it was farcical on all counts. Irrespective of personal politics neither side made a cohesive argument.


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## Hobbit (Oct 15, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			True ... it was farcical on all counts. Irrespective of personal politics neither side made a cohesive argument.
		
Click to expand...

No one properly sold the benefits of Remain. Everything was about fear.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 15, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			No one properly sold the benefits of Remain. Everything was about fear.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly ....


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## vkurup (Oct 15, 2016)

hors limite said:



			I am really struggling to understand where we are supposed to be heading with the Brexit project. The impact on immigration when you've counted in all the exceptions that are being talked about is looking to be modest. Conversely, the adverse economic impact seems to be frighteningly difficult to quantify.
The fall in the pound might have been good for exporters if we had the manufacturing base of a Germany. As we haven't it isn't as it will drive up the cost of imports leading to inflation and an erosion of real incomes which will impact the poorest. I read that one of the biggest and most successful industries is the financial sector and the impact of Brexit in this area seems only to threaten a negative impact. Returning to the exports of goods, we have done very well in attracting inward investment from especially the Japanese. The Japanese government has already warned of their concerns and Nissan has halted further investment.
I have heard the argument that the EU will not want to apply tariffs to Uk goods as they will fear a similar treatment of their exports. I hope that the Brexit camp is right. However, the downside to the UK economy appears to huge compared to the upside of a smallish reduction in immigration and that nebulous  recapturing of"sovereignty".
I would like to see a series of opinion polls between now and the Article 50 deadline. There were false fears and arguments peddled by both sides leading up to the vote.It would be foolish, whether through a misplaced sense of pride or through a narrow political self interest, to rule out any possibility of revisiting the question if it emerged that there had been a substantial change of heart.
		
Click to expand...

Reported to Mods for talking too much sense..


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 15, 2016)

A worrying 41% increase in reported hate crime in England and Wales since the UK referendum.

Anyone surprised by that ?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2016)

vkurup said:



			So looks like the media lapped up the Unilever-Marmite-Tesco story and if you think this was a issue for multinationals giants then here is anecdote that I hadn't thought about before. 
Visiting the farmer markets and the guys are feeling the impact. They think that they won't find east Europeans to pick fruits and veg or pay double the rate to find 'locals' who they can't find anyways.  So they will either have to double the rates they charge customers and therefore drive away customers or they reduce their production.. this bres*it is hitting everyone....
		
Click to expand...

No one who speaks with a modicum of sense has suggested that we stop immigration, the issue for people was controlling it.  While members of the EU we have no control, it's not just about plumbers, doctors and engineers, the issue for many is the unfettered open border where limitless people with or without skills have a right to reside in the UK and with the same benefits as citizens.   I think we all know this was the issue but many seem to want to ignore it. If the EU would have offered Cameron a modicum of control rather than a slap in the face   then Brexit would have failed.  Thinking about it, picking fruit is not a new thing, our farmers have picked their fruit for time immemorial, how did they manage in the past?  I cant remember all these people from the EU over here.

Farmers will still be able to employ people from abroad to work in their fields, the only difference would be is that they would need a work visa giving them a temporary right of residence.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2016)

hors limite said:



			I was hoping to hear the Brexiteers cogent analysis of the upside and was prepared to try and appreciate it.
		
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I  will make a reply when I have time.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			A worrying 41% increase in reported hate crime in England and Wales since the UK referendum.

Anyone surprised by that ?
		
Click to expand...

I am never surprised at your anti English Hate Crime.


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## hors limite (Oct 15, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			No one who speaks with a modicum of sense has suggested that we stop immigration, the issue for people was controlling it.  While members of the EU we have no control, it's not just about plumbers, doctors and engineers, the issue for many is the unfettered open border where limitless people with or without skills have a right to reside in the UK and with the same benefits as citizens.   I think we all know this was the issue but many seem to want to ignore it. If the EU would have offered Cameron a modicum of control rather than a slap in the face   then Brexit would have failed.  Thinking about it, picking fruit is not a new thing, our farmers have picked their fruit for time immemorial, how did they manage in the past?  I cant remember all these people from the EU over here.

Farmers will still be able to employ people from abroad to work in their fields, the only difference would be is that they would need a work visa giving them a temporary right of residence.
		
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How, pray, will this temporary work visa system be policed? For example,the Border Agency has been singularly unsuccessful in rounding up and deporting failed asylum seekers. Why should we expect any greater efficiency when it comes to temporary workers who choose not to return home?


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## Hobbit (Oct 15, 2016)

hors limite said:



			How, pray, will this temporary work visa system be policed? For example,the Border Agency has been singularly unsuccessful in rounding up and deporting failed asylum seekers. Why should we expect any greater efficiency when it comes to temporary workers who choose not to return home?
		
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Probably the same way it works now for non-EU workers. There is a system in place already. I've employed several non-EU workers. They need to show they have a job to come to, and that process includes the employer confirming there is a job for them. Every 2 years they have to reapply for the work visa.

There are two reasons it fails, an unscrupulous employer who takes workers in under the black economy, and the Home Office not processing and deporting people quick enough once they've lost their job/right to work.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2016)

hors limite said:



			How, pray, will this temporary work visa system be policed? For example,the Border Agency has been singularly unsuccessful in rounding up and deporting failed asylum seekers. Why should we expect any greater efficiency when it comes to temporary workers who choose not to return home?
		
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It's nothing new and is used all around the World by most countries.   The USA has a Working Visa system and so does the UK for Non EU people.   Like any system it will have it's problems but that's not a reason to dismiss it as unworkable, every visa holder does not abuse it.  Employers have to prove the holder has a valid job and inform the Agency if the person leaves.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 15, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I am never surprised at your anti English Hate Crime.
		
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Just reporting the facts.
Like the other pro Brexiters  on here you are doing a body swerve on that 'awkward' question.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 15, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			No one properly sold the benefits of Remain. Everything was about fear.
		
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In fairness, neither side properly sold the potential benefits of either option, they were both as bad as each other in that respect.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2016)

hors limite said:



			I am really struggling to understand where we are supposed to be heading with the Brexit project. The impact on immigration when you've counted in all the exceptions that are being talked about is looking to be modest. Conversely, the adverse economic impact seems to be frighteningly difficult to quantify.
The fall in the pound might have been good for exporters if we had the manufacturing base of a Germany. As we haven't it isn't as it will drive up the cost of imports leading to inflation and an erosion of real incomes which will impact the poorest. I read that one of the biggest and most successful industries is the financial sector and the impact of Brexit in this area seems only to threaten a negative impact. Returning to the exports of goods, we have done very well in attracting inward investment from especially the Japanese. The Japanese government has already warned of their concerns and Nissan has halted further investment.
I have heard the argument that the EU will not want to apply tariffs to Uk goods as they will fear a similar treatment of their exports. I hope that the Brexit camp is right. However, the downside to the UK economy appears to huge compared to the upside of a smallish reduction in immigration and that nebulous  recapturing of"sovereignty".
I would like to see a series of opinion polls between now and the Article 50 deadline. There were false fears and arguments peddled by both sides leading up to the vote.It would be foolish, whether through a misplaced sense of pride or through a narrow political self interest, to rule out any possibility of revisiting the question if it emerged that there had been a substantial change of heart.
		
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Working down your comments:
We are supposed to be heading towards becoming an independent country that creates it's own laws, controls it's own borders, trades and makes trade arrangements with anyone in the world who wants to.

Controlling immigration isn't as simple as reducing it or stopping it.  It's about deciding who and in what numbers you want to work and live in your country then creating a fair system for anyone in the world who wishes to apply.

The current fall in the exchange rate has ups and downs but will settle down eventually.   Some gain and some lose and no doubt the speculators will thrive on the current uncertainty and the fact that the pound has been  overvalued for some time and needed an adjustment will bring a level of reality to the markets and inflation levels.

The Government has been working in the background to reassure the Japanese car manufacturers and there are reports emerging that some form of guarantee has been given to them to protect against any tariffs that the EU may apply.

Regarding the rest of your comments I would put it that Brexit is a reality and it will happen.  There will be bumps and hurdles to jump but I am confident we will be a better country at the end of the process.  It will be up to ourselves to make it a success or failure and the sooner those that lost the vote get over it, face up to reality and put their backs into making a country we can all be proud to live in the sooner it will happen.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 15, 2016)

Good article in The Times today by Matthew Paris. To quote him, _

we are heading for a national humiliation, nobodies in charge and nobody knows what to do. This Brexit thing is out of control. 

_And he has a fair point, the government are doing their best to look like it is all under control, but deep down you know they aren't. TMay won't consult with parliament on her plans because basically she didn't have any. Yes I am sure the usual suspects will come up with their displacement activities, blaming the bank of England for for talking down the economy or people who wanted to stay as talking down the UK or whoever they blame this week. But truth is no one knows what they are doing, and I am sure in their heart of hearts any politician with the interests of the UK at heart instead of forwarding their own careers knows that as well.


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## USER1999 (Oct 15, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Good article in The Times today by Matthew Paris. To quote him, _

we are heading for a national humiliation, nobodies in charge and nobody knows what to do. This Brexit thing is out of control. 

_And he has a fair point, the government are doing their best to look like it is all under control, but deep down you know they aren't. TMay won't consult with parliament on her plans because basically she didn't have any. Yes I am sure the usual suspects will come up with their displacement activities, blaming the bank of England for for talking down the economy or people who wanted to stay as talking down the UK or whoever they blame this week. But truth is no one knows what they are doing, and I am sure in their heart of hearts any politician with the interests of the UK at heart instead of forwarding their own careers knows that as well.
		
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This is only a good article because it is what you think too.


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## USER1999 (Oct 15, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			I don't really understand how immigration will be changed if we exit. We always had our border controls and those EU migrants are skilled labour so where is the difference ? Should we exit the commonwealth as well, we get a shed load of them over .....? Oh that might not be PC.
		
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No, they are not skilled. Every day I drive past builders merchants with 40 to 50 EU eastern Europeans lurking waiting for cheap jobs in the building trade. Â£40 a day will get you a labourer. It under cuts UK labour, they don't pay tax, national insurance, they use the NHS, they drive rubbish cars with no insurance, very badly, and rent out rooms that sleep 20, messing up the renting market, and annoying people who have money invested in their own homes, who don't want to live next to a bunch of unaccountable thugs.

Controlling immigration is about this,  not nurses, doctors, financial bods. It's about people who come here without a recognised job to do.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 15, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			No, they are not skilled. Every day I drive past builders merchants with 40 to 50 EU eastern Europeans lurking waiting for cheap jobs in the building trade. Â£40 a day will get you a labourer. It under cuts UK labour, they don't pay tax, national insurance, they use the NHS, they drive rubbish cars with no insurance, very badly, and rent out rooms that sleep 20, messing up the renting market, and annoying people who have money invested in their own homes, who don't want to live next to a bunch of unaccountable thugs.

Controlling immigration is about this,  not nurses, doctors, financial bods. It's about people who come here without a recognised job to do.
		
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If you think it's illegal talk to the police or investigate other avenues.... if you are this certain of what your seeing act upon it.


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## USER1999 (Oct 15, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			If you think it's illegal talk to the police or investigate other avenues.... if you are this certain of what your seeing act upon it.
		
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I have no idea if its illegal, but do you think anyone cares? It's North London, no one gives a stuff. It's a new version of the wild west.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 15, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			I have no idea if its illegal, but do you think anyone cares? It's North London, no one gives a stuff. It's a new version of the wild west.
		
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Question is why will it change when we leave? There will be a demand and they will get in - they may not be Eastern Europeans, but it will happen all the same.


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## PieMan (Oct 15, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			I have no idea if its illegal, but do you think anyone cares? It's North London, no one gives a stuff. It's a new version of the wild west.
		
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Also happening in our area.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Question is why will it change when we leave? There will be a demand and they will get in - they may not be Eastern Europeans, but it will happen all the same.
		
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There is an unlimited supply of unskilled labour in the EU and a great deal of it has come to the UK.   If you think immigrants are all skilled then you have no grasp on the reality.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 15, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			There is an unlimited supply of unskilled labour in the EU and a great deal of it has come to the UK.   If you think immigrants are all skilled then you have no grasp on the reality.
		
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*Yawn * go and prove it .....


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			There is an unlimited supply of unskilled labour in the EU and a great deal of it has come to the UK.   If you think immigrants are all skilled then you have no grasp on the reality.
		
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And there is a lot of unskilled immigrants from outside the EU that came into the country that will still come to the country regardless of us being in or out of the EU 

There are also a lot of EU migrants unskilled but doing a lot of work that UK nationals believe is below them and would prefer to claim benefits 

But everything all looks great right now - pound struggling and getting worse , business are suffering because of it , companies looking for warehouses and offices around Europe allowing them to move out of the UK - but it's all good at the moment 

Right now UK wide we are in a mess of uncertainty - that may not bother yourself who it appears don't care about the future as long as "we have our sovereignty" but it seems it bothers a lot of people right now


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## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And there is a lot of unskilled immigrants from outside the EU that came into the country that will still come to the country regardless of us being in or out of the EU 

There are also a lot of EU migrants unskilled but doing a lot of work that UK nationals believe is below them and would prefer to claim benefits 

But everything all looks great right now - pound struggling and getting worse , business are suffering because of it , companies looking for warehouses and offices around Europe allowing them to move out of the UK - but it's all good at the moment 

Right now UK wide we are in a mess of uncertainty - that may not bother yourself who it appears don't care about the future as long as "we have our sovereignty" but it seems it bothers a lot of people right now
		
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Non EU immigrants are subject to a points based system where they must have skills required.   The answer to UK people not prepared to do unskilled work is to stop their benefits, That's what happens in most other countries and has only become a problem here due to the previous policies of the left allowing the feckless to get away with it.   How did we do these jobs before?

The rest of your comments are just exaggerated one sided rhetoric.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Non EU immigrants are subject to a points based system where they must have skills required.   The answer to UK people not prepared to do unskilled work is to stop their benefits, That's what happens in most other countries and has only become a problem here due to the previous policies of the left allowing the feckless to get away with it.   How did we do these jobs before?

The rest of your comments are just exaggerated one sided rhetoric.
		
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Yet it's all happening right now , i know people whose businesses are suffering since the vote , I know people who have lost their jobs because of lost contracts from Europe and further a field because of the vote , travel companies are suffering because of the state of the pound compared to other currencies 

Sorry but I don't think many see the same confident future for the UK that you do - a lot of people are realising the reality of the situation right now - each day goes by the uncertainty of the whole situation just drags on and on and that is affecting everyone right now - maybe you're retired now and don't work and don't see the affect of it all. I know people who do work in the car industry and they don't seem to agree with your rosey outcome for the Japanese manufacturers. 

But of course it's always dismissed by yourself as just scaremongering - well I know Its affecting my family - just hope its doesn't affect yours as well one day

Where is all this.business from beyond Europe then ? When will these deals from far and wide come flooding in ? 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ards-decline-pound-fall-too-high-price-brexit


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## harpo_72 (Oct 15, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Non EU immigrants are subject to a points based system where they must have skills required.   The answer to UK people not prepared to do unskilled work is to stop their benefits, That's what happens in most other countries and has only become a problem here due to the previous policies of the left allowing the feckless to get away with it.   How did we do these jobs before?

The rest of your comments are just exaggerated one sided rhetoric.
		
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they are if they come in legitimately... but guess what some of aren't and guess what that isn't Europe's fault that's the UK not protecting its borders properly. 

I am always amazed when I hear stories about multiple claims on our benefits system, makes me wonder how the f@&k did they do it ? I can only conclude we are not very well prepared. 

I think most people are of the opinion there is a large amount of English on benefits because those people think it's more cost affective ... but was Brexit about that? Also why have not the Tories with their massive majority passed and changes through parliament that would deal/ tackle with this ... must be feckless to. 

Like I stated earlier *yawn* SR it's wearing thin now


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 16, 2016)

Excoriating critique by Matthew Parris of the performance of May and the three Brexiteers in today's Times.    His conclusion?  They haven't a scoobies about what to do.

Meanwhile north of the border Nicola S lays out the parameters of the soft Brexit the SNP require - as she said she would do after meeting with May the day after the EU referendum- knowing pretty much full well that May will fail to deliver against them.  And Sturgeon can say to the Scottish electorate - 'well I tried'.  

And in a marvellous move, TMay does not include the secretaries of state for NI, Wales and Scotland in her core Brexit team - providing further evidence - if that were needed - that _Breakfast means Breakfast_ means _Full English Breakfast _- to be followed one suspects by a _Dog's Dinner_ of a departure.

But of course this is all the fault of the _Remoaners_, the _Remainiacs_, of course it is - blame the powerless defeated for the failures of the clueless victors - nice one.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 16, 2016)

vkurup said:



			So looks like the media lapped up the Unilever-Marmite-Tesco story and if you think this was a issue for multinationals giants then here is anecdote that I hadn't thought about before. 
Visiting the farmer markets and the guys are feeling the impact. They think that they won't find east Europeans to pick fruits and veg or pay double the rate to find 'locals' who they can't find anyways.  So they will either have to double the rates they charge customers and therefore drive away customers or they reduce their production.. this bres*it is hitting everyone....
		
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How the heck are we going to find 10s of thousands of unemployed Brits from the unemployed to work in the fields when half of them are on sickness or disability benefits with bad backs...


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## Hobbit (Oct 16, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Excoriating critique by Matthew Parris of the performance of May and the three Brexiteers in today's Times.    His conclusion?  They haven't a scoobies about what to do.

Meanwhile north of the border Nicola S lays out the parameters of the soft Brexit the SNP require - as she said she would do after meeting with May the day after the EU referendum- knowing pretty much full well that May will fail to deliver against them.  And Sturgeon can say to the Scottish electorate - 'well I tried'.  

And in a marvellous move, TMay does not include the secretaries of state for NI, Wales and Scotland in her core Brexit team - providing further evidence - if that were needed - that _Breakfast means Breakfast_ means _Full English Breakfast _- to be followed one suspects by a _Dog's Dinner_ of a departure.

But of course this is all the fault of the _Remoaners_, the _Remainiacs_, of course it is - blame the powerless defeated for the failures of the clueless victors - nice one.
		
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Why would Theresa May "fail to deliver," when there isn't a requirement to deliver? Krankie might want the sun, the moon and the stars but there's no requirement to deliver. It's not a failure when you don't give someone something you don't want to give them.

But I do note that she is will to accept Brexit, albeit a "soft one."

Why include the Secretaries of State for etc etc? This is a UK policy decision. Do they get included for any other UK/foreign policy decisions?


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## Hobbit (Oct 16, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How the heck are we going to find 10s of thousands of unemployed Brits from the unemployed to work in the fields when half of them are on sickness or disability benefits with bad backs...
		
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If half of them are on sickness benefit the unemployment level would be 180,000. There are less than 90,000 on disability benefits. Do you really think you're going to be taken seriously if you throw wildly inaccurate statements like the above around?

That's up there with the "Â£350 million."


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 16, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			If half of them are on sickness benefit the unemployment level would be 180,000. There are less than 90,000 on disability benefits. Do you really think you're going to be taken seriously if you throw wildly inaccurate statements like the above around?

That's up there with the "Â£350 million."
		
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I was not being serious.


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## MarkE (Oct 16, 2016)

It's a myth that British people will not do these jobs. British workers who worked the fields before the influx of cheap labour have been undercut. Rich farmers prefer to pay migrant workers below minimum wage. No one believes all the migrant workers toiling on fields are all legal and registered.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 16, 2016)

MarkE said:



			It's a myth that British people will not do these jobs. British workers who worked the fields before the influx of cheap labour have been undercut. Rich farmers prefer to pay migrant workers below minimum wage. No one believes all the migrant workers toiling on fields are all legal and registered.
		
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Whose fault is that.  Migrant or Employer?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 16, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whose fault is that.  Migrant or Employer?
		
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Government


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## MarkE (Oct 16, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whose fault is that.  Migrant or Employer?
		
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The government for letting the situation arise in the first place, then farmers for exploiting cheap labour. Migrants are just taking advantage of what's available (and who would blame them). Blaming it all on work shy Brits is an easy cop out.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 16, 2016)

MarkE said:



			The government for letting the situation arise in the first place, then farmers for exploiting cheap labour. *Migrants are just taking advantage of what's available *(and who would blame them). Blaming it all on work shy Brits is an easy cop out.
		
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That's correct and it's exactly what many Brits are doing by living on benefits rather than working.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 16, 2016)

MarkE said:



			It's a myth that British people will not do these jobs. British workers who worked the fields before the influx of cheap labour have been undercut. Rich farmers prefer to pay migrant workers below minimum wage. No one believes all the migrant workers toiling on fields are all legal and registered.
		
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Wot...Rich British farmers are to blame for all this Brexit nonsence


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 16, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Wot...Rich British farmers are to blame for all this Brexit nonsence
		
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Nope, I would blame the sneering politicians and political classes that screamed "racist" whenever someone raised a genuine concern over immigration or the EU. And also those on the Remain side that labelled Leave voters racist, stupid or uneducated. They badly misjudged the strength of feeling in the country.


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## Hobbit (Oct 16, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Nope, I would blame the sneering politicians and political classes that screamed "racist" whenever someone raised a genuine concern over immigration or the EU. And also those on the Remain side that labelled Leave voters racist, stupid or uneducated. They badly misjudged the strength of feeling in the country.
		
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And you just wouldn't believe how much Jack Straw massaged those figures. 657,000 in one year were moved of the official figures by granting them work visas to "cut the backlog."


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## harpo_72 (Oct 16, 2016)

Sorry confused here, some of the previous posts about immigration actually have no bearing on leaving the EU. 
Another point, farmers are hard pressed by supermarkets to lower their prices, the EU subsidise the farmers. 
So now by leaving we will see the cost of basics rise, because the labour costs will rise (if we have no immigrant workforce - which is highly unlikely to be the case, because leaving has no affect ) with no subsidy offset, unless your talking about scrapping the minimum wage ? Which to be fair was an EU initiative 
so once again, how is leaving a changing factor ?


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## MarkE (Oct 16, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Wot...Rich British farmers are to blame for all this Brexit nonsence
		
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No, but this discussion somehow got round to blaming workshy Brits for the reason we need a cheap unending supply of migrant labour to work the fields. I was just pointing out this is rubbish.


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## MarkE (Oct 16, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			That's correct and it's exactly what many Brits are doing by living on benefits rather than working.
		
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A decade ago I would have wholeheartedly agreed, but it's now much more difficult to get unemployment benefit. If there are jobs working the fields available at the job centre, you take that job or lose your benefit. But there are'nt farm jobs advertised at the job centre because farmers prefer to employ migrants. We all know why.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 16, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Sorry confused here, some of the previous posts about immigration actually have no bearing on leaving the EU. 
Another point, farmers are hard pressed by supermarkets to lower their prices, the EU subsidise the farmers. 
So now by leaving we will see the cost of basics rise, because the labour costs will rise (if we have no immigrant workforce - which is highly unlikely to be the case, because leaving has no affect ) with no subsidy offset, unless your talking about scrapping the minimum wage ? Which to be fair was an EU initiative 
so once again, how is leaving a changing factor ?
		
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Your post is so full of inaccuracies it's bordering on ridiculous.   The introduction of the Minimum Wage by the Labour Government in 1999 was absolutely nothing to do with the EU, how on earth do you come about that little gem 

If you think immigration was not a major factor in the vote to leave the EU then you must have been off with the faeries for the last few years.

So the EU subsidies Farmers do they!   Where does this subsidy come from then, some big box of gold in Brussels that is self generating?   It's paid for by UK tax payers and will continue to be paid for by them.

You suggest that because we leave the EU labour costs will rise, how exactly does that work, if the workers are paid the minimum wage then they will still be paid the minimum wage, there's no difference.  You suggest that we will have no immigrant workforce, how exactly do you come to that conclusion?  you seem to be struggling with the fact that no one is suggesting we have no immigration, only that we have the ability to control it. Please write out 100 times "No one is suggesting we have no immigration"

So! once again, leaving is a changing factor due to the UK regaining control as an independent country free to manage their lives as they see fit.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 16, 2016)

hmmm.  The answer - obvious really.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/h...replace-eu-workers-says-ex-minister-sdg23r8pb


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## SocketRocket (Oct 16, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			hmmm.  The answer - obvious really.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/h...replace-eu-workers-says-ex-minister-sdg23r8pb

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How much time did you spend trawling around the net trying to find articles to support your anti-Brexit campaign


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			How much time did you spend trawling around the net trying to find articles to support your anti-Brexit campaign 

Click to expand...

If you hadn't heard this then you've not been paying attention.

And I am not anti-Brexit.  I can't be - because we are Brexitting.  But I would like to hear some thought through answers to some pretty basic questions about how Brexit will work - and stupid and random ideas like this one confirm the fear that they don't know we are now in Project Muddle.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 17, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			hmmm.  The answer - obvious really.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/h...replace-eu-workers-says-ex-minister-sdg23r8pb

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Politician say something stupid; whatever next?


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## harpo_72 (Oct 17, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Your post is so full of inaccuracies it's bordering on ridiculous.   The introduction of the Minimum Wage by the Labour Government in 1999 was absolutely nothing to do with the EU, how on earth do you come about that little gem 

If you think immigration was not a major factor in the vote to leave the EU then you must have been off with the faeries for the last few years.

So the EU subsidies Farmers do they!   Where does this subsidy come from then, some big box of gold in Brussels that is self generating?   It's paid for by UK tax payers and will continue to be paid for by them.

You suggest that because we leave the EU labour costs will rise, how exactly does that work, if the workers are paid the minimum wage then they will still be paid the minimum wage, there's no difference.  You suggest that we will have no immigrant workforce, how exactly do you come to that conclusion?  you seem to be struggling with the fact that no one is suggesting we have no immigration, only that we have the ability to control it. Please write out 100 times "No one is suggesting we have no immigration"

So! once again, leaving is a changing factor due to the UK regaining control as an independent country free to manage their lives as they see fit.
		
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Are you suggesting we made our own laws regarding wages ? If so that's good is it not? maybe doesn't justify leaving 
yes we pay in that is understood, it was never mentioned because it was a given fact. But that was not the point....the point was it's the supermarkets that drive the cost down not the EU, who supported the farmers ... you missed that  

Nor have you grasped the other point- immigration will not be affected, they will get here, irrespective of our membership to the EU. We have full border controls, we are letting them in or not protecting our borders well enough! You missed this as well because it makes no affect to leaving ... 

As per usual you read a post and ignore the comments let the emotion take hold that few people agree with your pretty ill informed view and then ramble on.
Present an argument and a solution of note (you have had x 100s posts on this thread to so far and not managed it)


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## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If you hadn't heard this then you've not been paying attention.

And I am not anti-Brexit.  I can't be - because we are Brexitting.  But I would like to hear some thought through answers to some pretty basic questions about how Brexit will work - and stupid and random ideas like this one confirm the fear that they don't know we are now in Project Muddle.
		
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You don't seem to grasp the concept of negotiation.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 17, 2016)

Oh No......the loonies are in full flow now.:lol:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/168882


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2016)

@SR - you have said in the Indeyref2 thread that I should understand that Brexit means _Control of immigration, Sovereignty of our law making and the best trade deal possible._ and ask is that not clear to me yet.  I'll add _spend Â£350m/week more on.the NHS (or other public services)_ as a third, as getting the best traded deal would be a given.

Well I certainly understand that these were the key factors that would have influenced Leave voters - but there is no referendum mandate for all three - there is a mandate (if we accept that the referendum was not advisory even although legally it was) for leaving the EU as that is what was on the ballot paper - there was no definition of _Leave _provided for the vote.

And so of course neither you - nor I  - nor indeed anyone, knows the numbers of _Leave _voters who voted that way on the basis of any one, any pair - or indeed all three of these things,  we don't know - we will never know.  But I suggest to you that the number who voted wishing all three absolutely might not actually be in the majority over _Remain_.  Of course we do not know and never will - unless that is we get told what the governments definition of _Leave _is - or what it ends up as after 2yrs negotiation - and indeed we will not know if that is what the electorate voted for in the referendum unless it gets to vote on it - to advise the government.

The government has a mandate to exit UK from the EU - and it is beholding upon it to get the best possible deal Exit deal.  It has no other mandate from the electorate - certainly there is zero mandate for leaving the single market.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 17, 2016)

Of course the real irony is that the best possible deal would be the one we already have.... oh well!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh No......the loonies are in full flow now.:lol:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/168882

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Oh dear - see what happens when you are a moaning remainiac - you become unpatriotic - a traitor...


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## IanM (Oct 17, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Of course the real irony is that the best possible deal would be the one we already have.... oh well!
		
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Not in my industry!


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## Foxholer (Oct 17, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...I'll add _spend Â£350m/week more on.the NHS (or other public services)_ as a third, as getting the best traded deal would be a given.
...
		
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That was never a pledge! Nor was/is it ever a realistic possibility!

Plus, at least it's my belief, ALL the 'EU Funded' grants/subsidies/funding (like any farming, fishing and scientific research ones) would have to come out of that allocation -which is, of course less than that anyway, because of UK's Rebate.

Here's a simple and realistic explanation - with pictures even!

https://infacts.org/uk-doesnt-send-eu-350m-a-week-or-55m-a-day/



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The government has a mandate to exit UK from the EU - and it is beholding upon it to get the best possible deal Exit deal.  It has no other mandate from the electorate - certainly *there is zero mandate for leaving the single market.*

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I disagree with your logic! Brexit almost certainly meant leaving the single market!

A 'best deal' might well include 'access to the single market', though I suspect there would be a cost to this - Freedom of Movement being unacceptable!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			That was never a pledge! Nor was/is it ever a realistic possibility!

Plus, at least it's my belief, ALL the 'EU Funded' grants/subsidies/funding (like any farming, fishing and scientific research ones) would have to come out of that allocation -which is, of course less than that anyway, because of UK's Rebate.

Here's a simple and realistic explanation - with pictures even!

https://infacts.org/uk-doesnt-send-eu-350m-a-week-or-55m-a-day/



I disagree with your logic! Brexit almost certainly meant leaving the single market!

A 'best deal' might well include 'access to the single market', though I suspect there would be a cost to this - Freedom of Movement being unacceptable!
		
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The Â£350m/week tosh was understood by many as a pledge and the Leave campaign did NOTHING to repudiate that as a misconception.  They just let it run because if it helped their cause - then all to the good.  The fact that it was never a realistic possibility was fully explained and exposed as being unrealistic - but these explanations were provided by experts - and to make matters worse - experts in cahoots with Remain - and as Gove told us _â€œI think people in this country have had enough of expertsâ€_


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			That was never a pledge! Nor was/is it ever a realistic possibility!

Plus, at least it's my belief, ALL the 'EU Funded' grants/subsidies/funding (like any farming, fishing and scientific research ones) would have to come out of that allocation -which is, of course less than that anyway, because of UK's Rebate.

Here's a simple and realistic explanation - with pictures even!

https://infacts.org/uk-doesnt-send-eu-350m-a-week-or-55m-a-day/



I disagree with your logic! Brexit almost certainly meant leaving the single market!

A 'best deal' might well include 'access to the single market', though I suspect there would be a cost to this - Freedom of Movement being unacceptable!
		
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But you have to say 'almost certainly' - because it was not an option on the ballot paper and as we did not have definition of _Leave _you just cannot actually say that - however much it might have been implied or understood.  

And again - that leavinbg the sinbgle market was not not trumpeted loud and clear with explanations of the impact it might have (other than by those dratted 'experts agaoin).  So many times I heard leading Brexiteers claim that UK was always going to be able to get a good deal with the 'single market' because trade with the UK is so important to the rEU- indeed the deal would be as good as, if not better, than the one we have from being 'part of'.  

Bottom line is that Leave single market was not on the ballot paper.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 17, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh dear - see what happens when you are a moaning remainiac - you become unpatriotic - a traitor...
		
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OMG.......it has gone from 82 signatures in 3 days to nearly 400 since I first posted it on here an hour ago.

I should have known better.


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## Foxholer (Oct 17, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It was understood by many as a pledge and the Leave campaign did NOTHING to repudiate that as a misconception.  They just let it run because if it helped their cause - then all to the good.  The fact that it was never a realistic possibility was fully explained and exposed as being unrealistic - but these explanations were provided by experts - and to make matters worse - experts in cahoots with Remain - and as Gove told us _â€œI think people in this country have had enough of expertsâ€_

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Those slogans were roundly poo-poo-ed and ridiculed by so many that nobody could have ever been under the impression that they were anything near the truth! Similar exaggeration was used by the remainers! 

It wasn't the actual value that Brexiters were (partly) voting for, but it was a good slogan all the same! Had it been for a commercial organisation, the Advertising Standards Association would have jumped on it very smartly! But, unfortunately, political campaigns have no such supervisory body, so misleading statements and outright lies are all part of the 'game'!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2016)

Foxholer said:



*Those slogans were roundly poo-poo-ed and ridiculed by so many that nobody could have ever been under the impression that they were anything near the truth! Similar exaggeration was used by the remainers! *

It wasn't the actual value that Brexiters were (partly) voting for, but it was a good slogan all the same! Had it been for a commercial organisation, the Advertising Standards Association would have jumped on it very smartly! But, unfortunately, political campaigns have no such supervisory body, so misleading statements and outright lies are all part of the 'game'!
		
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Not quite - you should listen to the rationale some leave voters give for their vote - try listening to James O'Brien (LBC) talking to the electrician 

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/james-obrien/which-eu-law-are-you-looking-forward-to-losing/

And exaggerating a prediction is not the same as exaggerating a fact.  _Remain _might have done the former - _Leave _did the latter.


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## Foxholer (Oct 17, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...
And exaggerating a prediction is not the same as exaggerating a fact.  _Remain _might have done the former - _Leave _did the latter.
		
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It's still lying - at least in my book! But that's politics and I wasn't swayed by either numbers! Whether others were or not, I haven't a clue - nor do I care much. Boris was asked the equivalent of that question during the campaign and fudged (lied) for an answer!

Whatever, the result stands and UK must now prepare for and undertake Brexit! Some of the 'downsides' appear to be arriving and continuing uncertainty probably won't help in the short term. However, adequate preparation will likely mean a better 'result' overall. I'm sure there is a lot of, no doubt very expensive, work going on already!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But you have to say 'almost certainly' - because it was not an option on the ballot paper and as we did not have definition of _Leave _you just cannot actually say that - however much it might have been implied or understood.  

And again - that leavinbg the sinbgle market was not not trumpeted loud and clear with explanations of the impact it might have (other than by those dratted 'experts agaoin).  So many times I heard leading Brexiteers claim that UK was always going to be able to get a good deal with the 'single market' because trade with the UK is so important to the rEU- indeed the deal would be as good as, if not better, than the one we have from being 'part of'.  

Bottom line is that Leave single market was not on the ballot paper.
		
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If we want full access to the Single Market then we would probably have to accept Free Movement, EU Law and Pay a membership fee so it wouldn't be Brexit at all.  Brexit means leaving the EU, not staying as a member in a different suit of clothes.  The reason you cant have your pre-negotiation  terms laid out in black and white is because it's up to the EU to stipulate what access we get to the market and the terms and conditions they wish to apply.  We can the consider this, give counter claims and then through discussions or a slammed door decide how we wish to proceed.

Regarding the Â£350 million a week, we all know that nothing can be used until we have left the EU as we are still paying our contributions.   The amount was an extrapolation of how much we would pay if the rebate was eroded and everyone knew when they went to the ballot box it was and exaggeration and not the amount we would get back now.   It's getting a bit hackneyed now just like Osbornes Â£4,300 per household.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Are you suggesting we made our own laws regarding wages ? If so that's good is it not? maybe doesn't justify leaving 
yes we pay in that is understood, it was never mentioned because it was a given fact. But that was not the point....the point was it's the supermarkets that drive the cost down not the EU, who supported the farmers ... you missed that  

Nor have you grasped the other point- immigration will not be affected, they will get here, irrespective of our membership to the EU. We have full border controls, we are letting them in or not protecting our borders well enough! You missed this as well because it makes no affect to leaving ... 

As per usual you read a post and ignore the comments let the emotion take hold that few people agree with your pretty ill informed view and then ramble on.
Present an argument and a solution of note (you have had x 100s posts on this thread to so far and not managed it)
		
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Wall, Head, Bang, Bang, Bang!

You now blame Supermarkets but never mentioned that in your previous post.   You do like moving the goal posts to suit the  shortcomings in your posts. I explained it's the tax payer that supports Farmers but again it went in one of your ears and out the other.  

I explained that no one is suggesting there would be no immigration but rather that we have control over it.  The numbers getting in illegally are very small compared to the 600,000 that we take in these days.   Are you suggesting 600,000 illegal immigrants would arrive each year?

Emotion! are you serious.  This is a Golf Forum where mainly ageing middle class people like us with too much time on their hands waste our time telling others that they are wrong and only our own opinion counts!   Ha Ha Ha, Ha ha ha ha ha!!!!   I'm splitting my sides, Emotion taking hold !! you are a drama queen.  :rofl:


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## Foxholer (Oct 17, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			If we want full access to the Single Market then we would probably have to accept Free Movement, EU Law and Pay a membership fee so it wouldn't be Brexit at all.  Brexit means leaving the EU, not staying as a member in a different suit of clothes.  The reason you cant have your pre-negotiation  terms laid out in black and white is because it's up to the EU to stipulate what access we get to the market and the terms and conditions they wish to apply.  We can the consider this, give counter claims and then through discussions or a slammed door decide how we wish to proceed.
		
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I'd be hoping - and it was certainly one of the stated aims/hopes of the Brexit crew - that *access* to the single market, perhaps with some sort of fee (aka Norway/EEA style or similar) would be achievable without having to accept Free Movement or (non-trade relevant) EU Law. 

The current 'cost of membership' is not a 'membership fee', but a levy according to 'ability to provide/need' based on the GDP of UK compared with other members GDPs/'ability to provide/need'! Even if the fee was based on the value of trade (so actually a trade tariff in different clothes! ) it would be something to aim for. But (fully) Free Movement is something that has to be off the agenda!

Certain trading standards would have to be met - sufficient to attain CE marking - but there should be no requirement to obey non-trade relate laws (actually 'regulations') or directives made by the EU - so talk of an EU Army is irrelevant to UK. It becomes the UK Parliament that makes ALL the Laws of UK - as opposed to some being made by The EU Council and EU Parliament - and the European Court of Justice would be irrelevant to UK - with Judgement and Appeals (except on Human Rights) stopping at The Supreme Court. 

The final arbiter of Human Rights should still be the European Court of Human Rights, which is not an EU body! I suspect there will be some who would like to sever this link too - but it not a Brexit consideration and, imo, should be strongly resisted anyway!

There does appear to be some pre-(pre-)negotiation 'terms' being bandied about, but it's the role of the UK Departments to find an acceptable position! A de facto return to membership (acceptance of all EU laws including Free Movement for access to Single Market), with or without a fee, would actually be the worst possible result! The other areas that those Department(s) need to consider is how (or indeed whether!) to provide those subsidies/grants that current recipients get from EU (with contribution from UK Government also).


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			OMG.......it has gone from 82 signatures in 3 days to nearly 400 since I first posted it on here an hour ago.

I should have known better.

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Apparently posted by a Tory Councillor - now suspended...apparently


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			It's still lying - at least in my book! But that's politics and I wasn't swayed by either numbers! Whether others were or not, I haven't a clue - nor do I care much. Boris was asked the equivalent of that question during the campaign and fudged (lied) for an answer!

Whatever, the result stands and UK must now prepare for and undertake Brexit! Some of the 'downsides' appear to be arriving and continuing uncertainty probably won't help in the short term. However, adequate preparation will likely mean a better 'result' overall. I'm sure there is a lot of, no doubt very expensive, work going on already!
		
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I'm with this though I don't agree about both sides lying (you can't lie about the future - you can exaggerate) -  and rather just hoping rather than expecting a better long term outcome.  It won't impact me - I'm not far from retirement - but it will impact my children - so I just hope...


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## larmen (Oct 17, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Brexit means leaving the EU, not staying as a member in a different suit of clothes.
		
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You got that totally wrong. Brexit means Brexit! Nothing else. Get your facts right.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2016)

larmen said:



			You got that totally wrong. Brexit means Brexit! Nothing else. Get your facts right.
		
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Now it's Breakfast means Full English! Apparently!


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## delc (Oct 17, 2016)

larmen said:



			You got that totally wrong. Brexit means Brexit! Nothing else. Get your facts right.
		
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I seem to remember Boris Johnson telling us before the referendum that Germany, France, Italy, Spain, and the other EU countries would be queuing up to do trade deals with the UK. No mention of a Hard Brexit where we cut ourselves off from Europe altogether!


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## larmen (Oct 17, 2016)

delc said:



			I seem to remember Boris Johnson telling us before the referendum that Germany, France, Italy, Spain, and the other EU countries would be queuing up to do trade deals with the UK. No mention of a Hard Brexit where we cut ourselves off from Europe altogether!  

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I seem to remember a lot of things that people who said it don't seem to remember it.



Anyway, in regards to Brexit is Brexit, if the leavers really want to include the retainers in the process then they should be aware that 48% don't want a hard Brexit for sure. Therefore if the leavers weren't 97% for hard Brexit, there isn't a clear mandate for that. Anybody who says the mandate is hard is not speaking for the nation. Where is democracy in that?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2016)

larmen said:



			I seem to remember a lot of things that people who said it don't seem to remember it.



Anyway, in regards to Brexit is Brexit, if the leavers really want to include the retainers in the process then they should be aware that 48% don't want a hard Brexit for sure. Therefore if the leavers weren't 97% for hard Brexit, there isn't a clear mandate for that. Anybody who says the mandate is hard is not speaking for the nation. Where is democracy in that?
		
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This hard or Soft Brexit is nonsense.   There is Brexit or No Brexit.  Accepting Free movement, EU Law and payment to be in the Single Market is not Brexit, it's what we had before but worse as we would have no place at the table.   Brexit means Brexit.


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## delc (Oct 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			This hard or Soft Brexit is nonsense.   There is Brexit or No Brexit.  Accepting Free movement, EU Law and payment to be in the Single Market is not Brexit, it's what we had before but worse as we would have no place at the table.   Brexit means Brexit.
		
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Again, that is still not what we were told by the Leave campaign prior to the referendum! They, Boris in particular, claimed that we would still trade with the EU but without free movement of people.


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## Papas1982 (Oct 18, 2016)

Reading through this post and the one about Scottish idependance as well as what I see daily on facebook between friends. 

It it amazes me how often the people who wanted Scottish idependance are told "you had your vote accept it", yet cry foul at brexit.


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## delc (Oct 18, 2016)

Papas1982 said:



			Reading through this post and the one about Scottish idependance as well as what I see daily on facebook between friends. 

It it amazes me how often the people who wanted Scottish idependance are told "you had your vote accept it", yet cry foul at brexit.
		
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I am not Scottish, but things have been changed by the Brexit vote. At the time of the Scottish Independence vote, they were told that voting to stay in the UK would allow them to stay in the EU and the single market, whereas there was some doubt that Scotland could meet the requirements for joining the EU as an independent nation. That has all changed now, so I can understand why the SNP is pushing for another referendum on independence.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2016)

delc said:



			Again, that is still not what we were told by the Leave campaign prior to the referendum! They, Boris in particular, claimed that we would still trade with the EU but without free movement of people.
		
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Who is saying we wont trade with the EU


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## delc (Oct 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Who is saying we wont trade with the EU 

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We won't at all, except with quite high WTO tariffs applied, if we go for a hard Brexit! As a member of the EU (as we still are at the moment) all trade with Europe is tariff and customs free, so far less expense and bureaucratic paperwork.


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## Papas1982 (Oct 18, 2016)

delc said:



			I am not Scottish, but things have been changed by the Brexit vote. At the time of the Scottish Independence vote, they were told that voting to stay in the UK would allow them to stay in the EU and the single market, whereas there was some doubt that Scotland could meet the requirements for joining the EU as an independent nation. That has all changed now, so I can understand why the SNP is pushing for another referendum on independence.
		
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My point wasn't really about the scots right to a 2nd referendum. More the fact that after the first one (Pre brexit) people told them tough it's democracy accept it. The after the brexit vote, people are crying foul about brexit and wanting things changed in the uk, not Scotland.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2016)

delc said:



			We won't at all, except with quite high WTO tariffs applied, if we go for a hard Brexit! As a member of the EU (as we still are at the moment) all trade with Europe is tariff and customs free, so far less expense and bureaucratic paperwork.
		
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What do you mean 'We wont at all'   Of course we will trade, do you think that countries in the EU will not want to sell us their goods and services?   When it comes to Tariffs we have a trade deficit with the EU so will receive more in tariffs than we pay out so we will not be worse off overall.  Most of the world trade with the EU without problem.


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## delc (Oct 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			What do you mean 'We wont at all'   Of course we will trade, do you think that countries in the EU will not want to sell us their goods and services?   When it comes to Tariffs we have a trade deficit with the EU so will receive more in tariffs than we pay out so we will not be worse off overall.  Most of the world trade with the EU without problem.
		
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Eh! The tariffs go to the exporter, not the importer!


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## Foxholer (Oct 18, 2016)

delc said:



			Eh! The tariffs go to the exporter, not the importer!
		
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Er...Wrong - at least as a final result! Tariffs cost the importer, and go to the importer's Government!

So SR is correct about 'UK PLC' receiving more in tariffs than is paid out. In fact, exports don't cost the government anything and the government gets money for any imports - so SR's point/argument about getting more than paying out is realy irrelevant! 

However, (in a 'balanced' environment) the consumer in  the importing country gets hit for additional (and unnecessary) cost! And the producer is unable to sell as much/many because of the increased cost! That's why 'free trade' is the preferred model!


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## jp5 (Oct 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Accepting Free movement, EU Law and payment to be in the Single Market is not Brexit, it's what we had before but worse as we would have no place at the table.
		
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Of course that would satisfy the mandate to leave the EU, and it's what people were saying before the referendum - the best deal we could get would be worse than what we had before.


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## Foxholer (Oct 18, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Of course that would satisfy the mandate to leave the EU, and it's what people were saying before the referendum - the best *trade *deal we could get would be worse than what we had before.
		
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Added an important word!

There were other 'benefits and costs' to be considered as well!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Of course that would satisfy the mandate to leave the EU, and it's what people were saying before the referendum - the best deal we could get would be worse than what we had before.
		
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The things I listed were the* ideal* terms for the UK but probably not on offer from the EU, we must be patient and see what transpires. You are missing the point that the UK will be free to negotiate trade deals with other countries, something we cant do now.   

How people will consider the new arrangements when they are completed is unknown at this time as they are not agreed yet, when they are they wont satisfy everyone but what does?   Many people wanted other things like control over immigration, supremacy of UK Law and extraction from the EU superstate.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Now it's Breakfast means Full English! Apparently!
		
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Seems so - as the Scottish, NI and Welsh Sec of State aren't part of May's Brexit core team.  England it is then.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 18, 2016)

delc said:



			Eh! The tariffs go to the exporter, not the importer!
		
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When did they change that around? The importer pays the tariff. The worry for the exporter is that the weight of tariff will put off the importer so that they buy from another source in a country that has a better agreement or better still no tariff at all.


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## PieMan (Oct 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Seems so - as the Scottish, NI and Welsh Sec of State aren't part of May's Brexit core team.  England it is then.
		
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They don't need to be as the Scottish, Welsh and NI respective Governments are engaging with officials in Whitehall Government Departments on all Brexit matters. For example, on the EU Structural Funds - which accounts for an obscene amount of EU money and matched national contributions, officials from the Devolved Administrations are liaising directly with HMT officials on what funding programmes can be delivered during the exit negotiations; and what any future programmes will look like.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Seems so - as the Scottish, NI and Welsh Sec of State aren't part of May's Brexit core team.  England it is then.
		
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So we need every man and his dog in the negotiating team do we.  That would make it a real dogs breakfast!  Do you think all regions are not being consulted, if that was the case the whole thing would be Toast or in a Jam.

Maybe the ministry of funny walks would have an opinion, how about Black Rod and Silver stick in waiting, i'm sure they would have much to offer


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Seems so - as the Scottish, NI and Welsh Sec of State aren't part of May's Brexit core team.  England it is then.
		
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What about, as you've pointed out on the Indyref2 thread, Scotland being part of Club UK? It's Club UK (your words) negotiating Brexit not England, Wales, Scotland etc. You can't have it both ways just to suit your argument.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			What about, as you've pointed out on the Indyref2 thread, Scotland being part of Club UK? It's Club UK (your words) negotiating Brexit not England, Wales, Scotland etc. You can't have it both ways just to suit your argument.
		
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If you are a member of a club you have representation on the decision making bodies.  Scotland, NI and Wales do not have representation - they will be invited when they are required.  That is not the 'equal partnership' that BT and the Gov promised Scotland in IndyRef1.  They are playing into the hands of the SNP.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 18, 2016)

East Anglia has that same population as Scotland. Should they have representation on the decision making bodies? And the same goes for plenty of other regions of the UK. Just how big do you want this decision making body to be?


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 18, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			East Anglia has that same population as Scotland. Should they have representation on the decision making bodies? And the same goes for plenty of other regions of the UK. Just how big do you want this decision making body to be?
		
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Isn't East Anglia part of the English region.

I see the City of London is once again asking to join Scotland in a Brexit free zone.


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## hors limite (Oct 18, 2016)

hors limite said:



			I am really struggling to understand where we are supposed to be heading with the Brexit project. The impact on immigration when you've counted in all the exceptions that are being talked about is looking to be modest. Conversely, the adverse economic impact seems to be frighteningly difficult to quantify.
The fall in the pound might have been good for exporters if we had the manufacturing base of a Germany. As we haven't it isn't as it will drive up the cost of imports leading to inflation and an erosion of real incomes which will impact the poorest. I read that one of the biggest and most successful industries is the financial sector and the impact of Brexit in this area seems only to threaten a negative impact. Returning to the exports of goods, we have done very well in attracting inward investment from especially the Japanese. The Japanese government has already warned of their concerns and Nissan has halted further investment.
I have heard the argument that the EU will not want to apply tariffs to Uk goods as they will fear a similar treatment of their exports. I hope that the Brexit camp is right. However, the downside to the UK economy appears to huge compared to the upside of a smallish reduction in immigration and that nebulous  recapturing of"sovereignty".
I would like to see a series of opinion polls between now and the Article 50 deadline. There were false fears and arguments peddled by both sides leading up to the vote.It would be foolish, whether through a misplaced sense of pride or through a narrow political self interest, to rule out any possibility of revisiting the question if it emerged that there had been a substantial change of heart.
		
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The responses that my above post has received from Brexiteers are woefully unconvincing. They seem to be built on wishful thinking." The pound will eventually stabilise". "Car manufacturers will be compensated if tariff barriers are applied"
When the wishful thinking stops, the assertions of confidence that the UK will emerge a better and more prosperous place take over. No justification, of course.
It makes me think of the bloke in the pub who has ordered a new car and bores his mates to death with stories of superlative performance, economy, handling, beauty and prestige. After taking delivery, he realises that all these claims were horribly exaggerated. As for telling his mates, it takes a particular humility to admit that you've been sold a pup.


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## Val (Oct 18, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Isn't East Anglia part of the English region.

I see the City of London is once again asking to join Scotland in a Brexit free zone.
		
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Is it? Where?


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## PieMan (Oct 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If you are a member of a club you have representation on the decision making bodies.  Scotland, NI and Wales do not have representation - they will be invited when they are required.  That is not the 'equal partnership' that BT and the Gov promised Scotland in IndyRef1.  They are playing into the hands of the SNP.
		
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As I pointed out in my previous post, Devolved Administration officials are currently actively engaged in Brexit discussions with counterparts in Whitehall Departments, so in effect those Governments are being represented and there is an 'equal partnership' in operation.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 18, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Isn't East Anglia part of the English region.
		
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Yes it is. But East Anglia has paid to be a member of the club but doesn't have a representative on the decision making body.

Isn't Scotland part of the UK. And unless I'm mistaken it's the UK that will be negotiating to leave the EU. Why should Scotland get anything more than any other region with a similar population?


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## PieMan (Oct 18, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Yes it is. But East Anglia has paid to be a member of the club but doesn't have a representative on the decision making body.

Isn't Scotland part of the UK. And unless I'm mistaken it's the UK that will be negotiating to leave the EU. Why should Scotland get anything more than any other region with a similar population?
		
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Scotland is a country with it's own Government, so along with Wales and Northern Ireland, as part of the UK, will have a voice in the Brexit negotiations. However, in line with the devolved settlements, it is the Westminster Government that physically represents the UK in EU and international negotiations. It should also be noted that whenever Government officials attend EU meetings, they do so along agreed 'UK' lines.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 18, 2016)

hors limite said:



			The responses that my above post has received from Brexiteers are woefully unconvincing. They seem to be built on wishful thinking." The pound will eventually stabilise". "Car manufacturers will be compensated if tariff barriers are applied"
When the wishful thinking stops, the assertions of confidence that the UK will emerge a better and more prosperous place take over. No justification, of course.
It makes me think of the bloke in the pub who has ordered a new car and bores his mates to death with stories of superlative performance, economy, handling, beauty and prestige. After taking delivery, he realises that all these claims were horribly exaggerated. As for telling his mates, it takes a particular humility to admit that you've been sold a pup.
		
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Is it not just as hard for Remoaners to admit that we were "sold a pup" in 1973?


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## USER1999 (Oct 18, 2016)

PieMan said:



			Scotland is a country with it's own Government, so along with Wales and Northern Ireland, as part of the UK, will have a voice in the Brexit negotiations. However, in line with the devolved settlements, it is the Westminster Government that physically represents the UK in EU and international negotiations. It should also be noted that whenever Government officials attend EU meetings, they do so along agreed 'UK' lines.
		
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No one is listening to you, as we would all prefer to make up some sensational nonsense, rather than actually understand how it works for real!


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## PieMan (Oct 18, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			No one is listening to you, as we would all prefer to make up some sensational nonsense, rather than actually understand how it works for real!
		
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:rofl: :thup: Yes I sometimes wonder whether all those meetings and conference calls I've been involved in since end June with officials from a number of Government departments, Devolved Administrations, and stakeholder representatives have not actually taken place; and we all have no idea what we're doing!!

Think I'll leave this thread alone now!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2016)

PieMan said:



			:rofl: :thup: Yes I sometimes wonder whether all those meetings and conference calls I've been involved in since end June with officials from a number of Government departments, Devolved Administrations, and stakeholder representatives have not actually taken place; and we all have no idea what we're doing!!

Think I'll leave this thread alone now!!
		
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If we don't know that they are happening - then the perception is that very little is happening.  That is why the government should give a plan for what is going to happen between now and end March.  There will be one - there MUST be one.  This plan gives nothing about the detail of the government objectives - other than it will have a Milestone called 'Brexit Objectives Signed off by PM', it will have nothing in it about the negotiation starting point, and where something can be given to the EU.  But it will have a milestone called 'Grand Repeal Bill Passed'; another called 'Article 50 Invoked' and another 'Draft Plan for Agreement of Trading Relations with the rEU Signed-off' 

It is simply a top level plan defining who is doing what between now and end March - and it will show is all where the devolved governments/assembles are involved - at detailed level discussions and at senior ministerial level.  

Have we seen that?  There need be nothing secret about it as we know where we are and we know where we have to get to by 31st March - and we know pretty much what has to be done.  Let's just see it set out.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If we don't know that they are happening - then the perception is that very little is happening.  That is why the government should give a plan for what is going to happen between now and end March.  There will be one - there MUST be one.  This plan gives nothing about the detail of the government objectives - other than it will have a Milestone called 'Brexit Objectives Signed off by PM', it will have nothing in it about the negotiation starting point, and where something can be given to the EU.  But it will have a milestone called 'Grand Repeal Bill Passed'; another called 'Article 50 Invoked' and another 'Draft Plan for Agreement of Trading Relations with the rEU Signed-off' 

It is simply a top level plan defining who is doing what between now and end March - and it will show is all where the devolved governments/assembles are involved - at detailed level discussions and at senior ministerial level.  

Have we seen that?  There need be nothing secret about it as we know where we are and we know where we have to get to by 31st March - and we know pretty much what has to be done.  Let's just see it set out.
		
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Why do you need to know every single little thing that is happening ?

How about you just wait and see what happens when they get everything sorted - you can't change anything regardless of what has been said and acting like a headless chicken because you haven't been told what is happening achieves nothing. 

People aren't sitting around doing nothing they are getting on with - so instead of demanding to be told everything let them get on with 

You have been told that people are preparing for the exit from the EU and are currently seeing what deals can be done - why do you need to know anything more ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why do you need to know every single little thing that is happening ?

How about you just wait and see what happens when they get everything sorted - you can't change anything regardless of what has been said and acting like a headless chicken because you haven't been told what is happening achieves nothing. 

People aren't sitting around doing nothing they are getting on with - so instead of demanding to be told everything let them get on with 

You have been told that people are preparing for the exit from the EU and are currently seeing what deals can be done - why do you need to know anything more ?
		
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I don't need to know everything at all - far from it.  But surely it would be good if we saw a top-level plan and who is involved at each step between now and 31st March, as this would make clear where the devolved administrations are involved and so silence complaints from the SNP that Scotland is not being fully consulted.


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## USER1999 (Oct 18, 2016)

The SNP know they are represented, they are just making political milage out of pretending to not be involved.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 18, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			The SNP know they are represented, they are just making political milage out of pretending to not be involved.
		
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Can you name a few of the folk from the SNP who are involved, it may surprise them!


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 18, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Can you name a few of the folk from the SNP who are involved, it may surprise them!
		
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God, I hope that the SNP aren't involved, just as I would prefer it if no politicians from anywhere else were involved. If only we could leave this up to experts (even if we hate them), rather than people who can benefit from short term political points scoring (applicable to both Scottish and English and Welsh and NI politicians)


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 18, 2016)

PieMan said:



			:rofl: :thup: Yes I sometimes wonder whether all those meetings and conference calls I've been involved in since end June with officials from a number of Government departments, Devolved Administrations, and stakeholder representatives have not actually taken place; and we all have no idea what we're doing!!

Think I'll leave this thread alone now!!
		
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Doon frae Troon said:



			Can you name a few of the folk from the SNP who are involved, it may surprise them!
		
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Did you bother to read the post by PieMan about meetings with Devolved Administrations? I think I'd rather believe his first hand knowledge of the situation than your guesswork from a position of ignorance.


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## PieMan (Oct 18, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Can you name a few of the folk from the SNP who are involved, it may surprise them!
		
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When I speak to my counterpart in the Scottish Government and they say to me "the steer we have had from our Minister is......" then I naturally assume that is an elected Scottish Government Minister. Unless I'm hugely mistaken, that's an SNP MSP? Of course they may be telling me a few porkies and they don't brief or consult their Ministers and just make it up as they go along!!!


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## Hobbit (Oct 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*If we don't know that they are happening - then the perception is that very little is happening*. .
		
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That is your perception. 

Do you honestly believe that those who have to negotiate the exit are sat around drinking tea and playing whist? Do you really believe they are wringing the hands, weeping and wailing?

Irrespective of anyone's political persuasion surely they can realise that the people that reach the top are reasonably intelligent, backed by career Civil Servants who are exceptionally intelligent. 

We might not like the direction the UK is going, or maybe we do, but you can be sure that those that are working on it are working for the best outcome within the terms of reference they've been given.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2016)

hors limite said:



			The responses that my above post has received from Brexiteers are woefully unconvincing. They seem to be built on wishful thinking." The pound will eventually stabilise". "Car manufacturers will be compensated if tariff barriers are applied"
When the wishful thinking stops, the assertions of confidence that the UK will emerge a better and more prosperous place take over. No justification, of course.
It makes me think of the bloke in the pub who has ordered a new car and bores his mates to death with stories of superlative performance, economy, handling, beauty and prestige. After taking delivery, he realises that all these claims were horribly exaggerated. As for telling his mates, it takes a particular humility to admit that you've been sold a pup.
		
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Maybe some of us find your view unconvincing.   You are presenting a scenario to fit with your personal view then convincing yourself that no one else's opinion  is valid.   Bit like the rest of us :smirk:    We were certainly sold a Pup with our membership of the EU, started off as a nice friendly Golden Retriever and morphed into a Pit Bull with it's jaws locked around our throats.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			God, I hope that the SNP aren't involved, just as I would prefer it if no politicians from anywhere else were involved. If only we could leave this up to experts (even if we hate them), rather than people who can benefit from short term political points scoring (applicable to both Scottish and English and Welsh and NI politicians)
		
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This view is all very well and humorous perhaps to many south of the border - but north of the border less so.  And as you say - we can't leave it to the experts either as they would cancel Brexit - now that's funny.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			That is your perception. 

Do you honestly believe that those who have to negotiate the exit are sat around drinking tea and playing whist? Do you really believe they are wringing the hands, weeping and wailing?

Irrespective of anyone's political persuasion surely they can realise that the people that reach the top are reasonably intelligent, backed by career Civil Servants who are exceptionally intelligent. 

We might not like the direction the UK is going, or maybe we do, but you can be sure that those that are working on it are working for the best outcome within the terms of reference they've been given.
		
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I just do not get at all why you are arguing against us getting a little bit of clarity about the process to 31st March, because lack of visibility and a plan just causes uncertainty and we are seeing where uncertainty is getting us.  What is the problem with giving us the process and a plan?  

This is the most important negotiation of the last 50yrs and the 16m of us who voted to stay would like to have some confidence that the gov knows what it is doing, and I see absolutely no risk to the negotiations in doing that.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This view is all very well and humorous perhaps to many south of the border - but north of the border less so.  And as you say - we can't leave it to the experts either as they would cancel Brexit - now that's funny.
		
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Wall, Head, Bang Bang Bang :temper:


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## Hobbit (Oct 18, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I just do not get at all why you are arguing against us getting a little bit of clarity about the process to 31st March, because lack of visibility and a plan just causes uncertainty and we are seeing where uncertainty is getting us.  What is the problem with giving us the process and a plan?  

This is the most important negotiation of the last 50yrs and the 16m of us who voted to stay would like to have some confidence that the gov knows what it is doing, and I see absolutely no risk to the negotiations in doing that.
		
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First of all, I'm one of those 16million who voted to Remain. And its great fun watching my annuity values fall through the floor just before I take my pension...

Secondly, the risk is why show your hand too soon. That gives the EU plenty of time to sort out their strategy. Why rush into something before everyone on the negotiating team is ready?


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## PieMan (Oct 18, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Secondly, the risk is why show your hand too soon. That gives the EU plenty of time to sort out their strategy. Why rush into something before everyone on the negotiating team is ready?
		
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Precisely.


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## Foxholer (Oct 18, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			That is your perception. 

Do you honestly believe that those who have to negotiate the exit are sat around drinking tea and playing whist? Do you really believe they are wringing the hands, weeping and wailing?

Irrespective of anyone's political persuasion surely they can realise that the people that reach the top are reasonably intelligent, backed by career Civil Servants who are exceptionally intelligent. 

We might not like the direction the UK is going, or maybe we do, but you can be sure that those that are working on it are working for the best outcome within the terms of reference they've been given.
		
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You are putting A LOT of trust in the integrity of Civil Servants!

Generally, such trust is well founded - even if the policy they are implementing isn't something they believe in!

However, Brexit is a 'project' that could well be an expensive mess! Along similar lines to some of the disastrous, wastefully, expensive problems that some NHS Trusts have experienced! the Civil Service has not got a great reputation for decent performance in 'project' type activities - with 'consultants' having too much influence, to the detriment of the project, but at considerable profit to the consultants!! 

I would like to see some sort of budget, plan and occasional progress reports, even if it is simply via the Select Committee process - a much underestimated (and occasionally abused) process of UK Government!


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## Hobbit (Oct 18, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			You are putting A LOT of trust in the integrity of Civil servants!

Generally, such trust is well founded - even if the policy they are implementing isn't something they believe in!

However, Brexit is a 'project' that could well be an expensive mess! Along similar lines to some of the disastrous, wastefully, expensive problems that some NHS Trusts have experienced!

I would like to see some sort of budget, plan and occasional progress reports, even if it is simply via the Select Committee process - a much underestimated (and occasionally abused) process of UK Government!
		
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My trust is based on the eldest daughter and son-in-law being senior Civil Servants. I know how very intelligent they are, and many of their peers. I also know how many hours they are currently working.

Drinking tea and playing whist they most definitely aren't doing.


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## PieMan (Oct 18, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			You are putting A LOT of trust in the integrity of Civil Servants!

Generally, such trust is well founded - even if the policy they are implementing isn't something they believe in!

However, Brexit is a 'project' that could well be an expensive mess!
		
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Well I can tell you that my fellow civil servants who voted to remain are working very hard to ensure that Brexit is a success so integrity is not an issue. And I disagree that Brexit is a project. It probably was to those who wanted it prior to it being a Conservative manifesto pledge and then up to the referendum, but it is now very much a policy.


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## Foxholer (Oct 18, 2016)

PieMan said:



			Well I can tell you that my fellow civil servants who voted to remain are working very hard to ensure that Brexit is a success so integrity is not an issue. And I disagree that* Brexit* is a project. It probably was to those who wanted it prior to it * being a Conservative manifesto pledge* and then up to the referendum, but it is now very much a policy.
		
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It's exactly this integrity that is so admirable!

However, your interpretation of'project' and 'policy' seem to differ! To me, a 'project' has a start/end date, while a 'policy' is an ongoing (though changeable!) application of rules/regulations - which might not actually even involve any effort, save that involved in defining the 'policy'!

By my definition, Brexit is a Project!

Btw. More confusion? Brexit was never a Conservative Manifesto pledge! It was the Referendum that was the Manifesto pledge!


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## PieMan (Oct 18, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			It's exactly this integrity that is so admirable!

However, your interpretation of'project' and 'policy' seem to differ! To me, a 'project' has a start/end date, while a 'policy' is an ongoing (though changeable!) application of rules/regulations - which might not actually even involve any effort, save that involved in defining the 'policy'!

By my definition, Brexit is a Project!

Btw. More confusion? Brexit was never a Conservative Manifesto pledge! It was the Referendum that was the Manifesto pledge!
		
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Apologies but what I meant was Brexit has been a project for those who have always wanted it and this continued even after the Tories made a pledge to hold a referendum on our relationship with the EU. I disagree though on the project/policy front but can see your point, however I am working on possible policies which we would then implement post exit.


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## Foxholer (Oct 18, 2016)

PieMan said:



			Apologies but what I meant was Brexit has been a project for those who have always wanted it and this continued even after the Tories made a pledge to hold a referendum on our relationship with the EU. I disagree though on the project/policy front but can see your point, however I am working on possible policies which we would then implement post exit.
		
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:thup:

It's all about 'definitions'! 

I wish you well establishing those policies! I hope you are 'flexible'! See what I mean by 'definitions'!


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 18, 2016)

I have just seen an interesting comment posted on a local newspaper site regarding trade deals post-Brexit. The suggestion was that the EU could stop other countries from negotiating free trade deals with the UK and force them to impose tariffs by threatening those countries own trade deals with the EU. Obviously with the EU market place being a much bigger market than the UK this could have an impact on those other countries and our negotiations with them.

This post isn't meant to be used as scaremongering, I just wondered if anyone knew if this was even a possibility or if the UK can do anything about it if it were to happen.


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## delc (Oct 18, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I have just seen an interesting comment posted on a local newspaper site regarding trade deals post-Brexit. The suggestion was that the EU could stop other countries from negotiating free trade deals with the UK and force them to impose tariffs by threatening those countries own trade deals with the EU. Obviously with the EU market place being a much bigger market than the UK this could have an impact on those other countries and our negotiations with them.

This post isn't meant to be used as scaremongering, I just wondered if anyone knew if this was even a possibility or if the UK can do anything about it if it were to happen.
		
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I am sure that some of the EU countries have a desire to punish the UK for leaving the EU.  In any case we are likely to end up with a worse deal than we have now as a full member!


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 18, 2016)

delc said:



			I am sure that some of the EU countries have a desire to punish the UK for leaving the EU.  In any case we are likely to end up with a worse deal than we have now as a full member!
		
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A worse trade deal? Possibly. But whether the overall deal is better or worse for the UK remains to be seen.

Reforming from within didn't go so well with Cameron's negotiations pre-referendum so I don't understand why so many people think we could have done it if we had voted to remain.


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## delc (Oct 18, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			A worse trade deal? Possibly. But whether the overall deal is better or worse for the UK remains to be seen.

Reforming from within didn't go so well with Cameron's negotiations pre-referendum so I don't understand why so many people think we could have done it if we had voted to remain.
		
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I believe that even some of the senior politicians and bureaucrats within the EU hierarchy acknowledge that the EU needs reforming.


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## Hobbit (Oct 18, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I have just seen an interesting comment posted on a local newspaper site regarding trade deals post-Brexit. The suggestion was that the EU could stop other countries from negotiating free trade deals with the UK and force them to impose tariffs by threatening those countries own trade deals with the EU. Obviously with the EU market place being a much bigger market than the UK this could have an impact on those other countries and our negotiations with them.

This post isn't meant to be used as scaremongering, I just wondered if anyone knew if this was even a possibility or if the UK can do anything about it if it were to happen.
		
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I read an article at the weekend in which, apparently, 30 countries have advised the EU not to punish the U.K. with tariffs as it will hurt those 30 countries. Apparently they will play hard ball with the Eu on tariffs if they are hurt by dealing through the UK.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 18, 2016)

delc said:



			I believe that even some of the senior politicians and bureaucrats within the EU hierarchy acknowledge that the EU needs reforming.
		
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It would certainly be ironic if the UK voting to leave the EU led to the sort of reforms that would make the EU the sort of organisation that would be attractive for the UK to be a member of. What odds on a new referendum a few years down the line asking whether the UK should join the newly reformed EU?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			First of all, I'm one of those 16million who voted to Remain. And its great fun watching my annuity values fall through the floor just before I take my pension...

Secondly, the risk is why show your hand too soon. That gives the EU plenty of time to sort out their strategy. Why rush into something before everyone on the negotiating team is ready?
		
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Sorry - but I don't think you understood what I said.  I am quite clear that the plan would give nothing away about the negotiating hand - the plan simply maps out the process to be followed to get to the negotiating hand, and shows at the top level who would be involved at each stage of the process, this has nothing to do with negotiating hand and would give nothing away.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2016)

PieMan said:



			Precisely.
		
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precisely mistaken - what I said was specific in excluding anything about the negotiating hand or objectives.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			You are putting A LOT of trust in the integrity of Civil Servants!

Generally, such trust is well founded - even if the policy they are implementing isn't something they believe in!

However, Brexit is a 'project' that could well be an expensive mess! Along similar lines to some of the disastrous, wastefully, expensive problems that some NHS Trusts have experienced! the Civil Service has not got a great reputation for decent performance in 'project' type activities - with 'consultants' having too much influence, to the detriment of the project, but at considerable profit to the consultants!! 

*I would like to see some sort of budget, plan and occasional progress reports, even if it is simply via the Select Committee process - a much underestimated (and occasionally abused) process of UK Government!*

Click to expand...

Precisely!


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			It would certainly be ironic if the UK voting to leave the EU led to the sort of reforms that would make the EU the sort of organisation that would be attractive for the UK to be a member of. What odds on a new referendum a few years down the line asking whether the UK should join the newly reformed EU?
		
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I'm pretty certain we'll be back in at some point....


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## USER1999 (Oct 18, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I'm pretty certain we'll be back in at some point....
		
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Still won't mean it wasn't the right decision to leave though.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 18, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			I'm pretty certain we'll be back in at some point....
		
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I don't think we shall even leave.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 18, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I don't think we shall even leave.
		
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I think we will - but I hope that _Leavers _are somewhat disappointed by the terms upon which we do.


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## USER1999 (Oct 18, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I don't think we shall even leave.
		
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That depends how you define leaving.  Soft brexit, no, we haven't left,  hard brexit, yep, we are out. Some sort of Brexit,  yep, it's going to happen. Has to now . We are too far down that road already.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2016)

murphthemog said:



			That depends how you define leaving.  Soft brexit, no, we haven't left,  hard brexit, yep, we are out. Some sort of Brexit,  yep, it's going to happen. Has to now . We are too far down that road already.
		
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I've said before that IMO there is no such thing as 'Soft Brexit' .  Brexit means we leave the EU and whether the terms we leave on allow Tariff free trade without any other stipulations is up to the EU, I guess they wont want this so there will be no option but what is being labeled as Hard Brexit ; which is not Hard, it's just Brexit.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I don't think we shall even leave.
		
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So can you justify that statement?


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 18, 2016)

Good to see David Coburn is considering running for the UKIP leadership.
The Scottish Brexit leader has excellent qualities that I shall fully support.
Just the man that the UK wants in it's hour of dire needs.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			So can you justify that statement?
		
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Yes, I see it in the stars.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I have just seen an interesting comment posted on a local newspaper site regarding trade deals post-Brexit. The suggestion was that the EU could stop other countries from negotiating free trade deals with the UK and force them to impose tariffs by threatening those countries own trade deals with the EU. Obviously with the EU market place being a much bigger market than the UK this could have an impact on those other countries and our negotiations with them.

This post isn't meant to be used as scaremongering, I just wondered if anyone knew if this was even a possibility or if the UK can do anything about it if it were to happen.
		
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I am unsure of the actual legal implications but I cannot see that the EU could stop any trade deals between the UK as an independent country and other countries outside the EU.   That would be a very dangerous policy that could escalate into some serious conflicts.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes, I see it in the stars.
		
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I will take that as a No then.  Nothing out of the normal for you.


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## Hobbit (Oct 18, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I will take that as a No then.  Nothing out of the normal for you.
		
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Surely you've worked out he's a soft troll


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 19, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Surely you've worked out he's a soft troll
		
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Is a soft troll not just a gonk?


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## Hobbit (Oct 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Is a soft troll not just a gonk?
		
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Crikey, I've not heard them called gonks for years.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 19, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Surely you've worked out he's a soft troll
		
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Spoilsport.

Or maybees it has something to do with the PM saying she can't stop MP's blocking the 'Full English'.

Â£ soaring from it's near 20% fall on this news.


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## PieMan (Oct 19, 2016)

UK trade in food and agricultural produce is going down the drain!

http://www.thefishsite.com/fishnews...ches-export-plan-for-uk-agricultural-produce/


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 19, 2016)

PieMan said:



			UK trade in food and agricultural produce is going down the drain!

http://www.thefishsite.com/fishnews...ches-export-plan-for-uk-agricultural-produce/

Click to expand...

Looking good for Jam tomorrow though.


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## vkurup (Oct 19, 2016)

Watching the build up to the third debate between Clinton and the Muppet on Fox News in my hotel room in NY. The Republican strategist made me spit out when he said.. 'Guys, let's not forget this is a Brexit election year and we see how people vote.. Trump will win this election.. ' I thought I mis heard but he kept repeating it a few times..


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2016)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mps-could-block-brexit-deal-no-10-admits-a7368561.html


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 19, 2016)

Vkurup - His point is right though. Don't believe all the polls is the message as people may feel embarrassed telling pollsters they are voting Trump. Trumps core supporters are not necessarily picked up by the spread of people pollsters are going to. Lots in the US are fed up with the establishment, Clinton breathes establishment, and they see Trump as the antidote to that. Very similar to Brexit. I think it is not the worst comparison and they do need something to cling to at the moment. The fact that Trump is still standing after the last two weeks says a great deal about how poor a candidate Clinton is.


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## delc (Oct 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mps-could-block-brexit-deal-no-10-admits-a7368561.html

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What us Remainers supposed to do? Sit on our hands and say nothing while Mrs May & Co drive our Nation over a cliff? I wonder if Leemings have a vote before doing something similar?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2016)

delc said:



			What us Remainers supposed to do? Sit on our hands and say nothing while Mrs May & Co drive our Nation over a cliff? I wonder if Leemings have a vote before doing something similar?  

Click to expand...

You have already had your vote 

Now you sit back and respect democracy and respect the result of the vote 

I voted to remain and had my say - that is all anyone has ever asked for. Just because it doesn't go my way doesn't mean we should have another vote and then keep going until it goes my way. 

Whilst I firmly believe it's going to be a move that could ruin the country and it will be a vote that many will regret - stamping are little feet with demands to know this and that are just pathetic as is the constant bleating on about the vote.


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## jp5 (Oct 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Now you sit back and respect democracy and respect the result of the vote
		
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That's ridiculous. 

Just because the Tories were voted in with a majority last year doesn't mean everyone else should let them get on with it until 2020.

Opposition pressure has already brought about U-turns on cuts to tax credits, personal independence payments, forced academisation - just off the top of my head.

Democracy is an ongoing process, not a discrete event every so often.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/mps-could-block-brexit-deal-no-10-admits-a7368561.html

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I'm not sure I agree with having a vote on the Brexit agreement. What happens if MP's vote against the Brexit agreement? We leave the EU with no deal agreed and end up with WTO rules and tariffs on trade and no other agreements in any area in place. Surely that can't be good for the country and the government would have had to negotiate a shocking deal with the EU for it to be worse than leaving with no deal in place.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2016)

jp5 said:



			That's ridiculous. 

Just because the Tories were voted in with a majority last year doesn't mean everyone else should let them get on with it until 2020.

Opposition pressure has already brought about U-turns on cuts to tax credits, personal independence payments, forced academisation - just off the top of my head.

Democracy is an ongoing process, not a discrete event every so often.
		
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That's a bit different isn't it though 

What the opposite to voting out of EU ? It was a simple question - out or in 

The vote has been cast and now we move on and see what happens - negotiations will be done by people 

But tell me what me and you can do beyond respecting the vote and waiting to see what transpires ? What has changed or made a difference with the constant bleating from some ? Nothing , nada . Zilch


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## jp5 (Oct 19, 2016)

You and I individually have little influence I am sure! 

But there are people and organisations which are rightly exerting pressure on shaping the outcome.

It was a tight result, so I'd expect to see these people fight for an outcome that reflects the vote.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2016)

delc said:



			What us Remainers supposed to do? Sit on our hands and say nothing while Mrs May & Co drive our Nation over a cliff? I wonder if Leemings have a vote before doing something similar?  

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You should get real and face up to the fact that the UK is leaving the EU, moaning and backbiting is a futile exercise in delusion.

Your comment regarding driving the country over a cliff is also an exaggeration and pathetically negative.

Regarding that article.  It points out that Westminster might get a vote on the final deal but what good is that!  It will be matter of leaving with whatever the negotiations achieve or leave with nothing. Either way we will be leaving.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2016)

jp5 said:



			You and I individually have little influence I am sure! 

But there are people and organisations which are rightly exerting pressure on shaping the outcome.

It was a tight result, so I'd expect to see these people fight for an outcome that reflects the vote.
		
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Who are these people.  Millaband, Clegg, Mandelson, losers that cant respect the decision of the referendum. 

Too much claptrap and gerrymandering is going on by these type of people and it's a sad reflection on Politics and people in general these days.   If you lose a fight you pick your self up, dust yourself down, get on with it, learn a lesson and become wiser.  The attitudes of so many these days makes me ashamed of what we have become.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 19, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



*I'm not sure I agree with having a vote *on the Brexit agreement. What happens if MP's vote against the Brexit agreement? We leave the EU with no deal agreed and end up with WTO rules and tariffs on trade and no other agreements in any area in place. *Surely that can't be good for the country* and the government would have had to negotiate a shocking deal with the EU for it to be worse than leaving with no deal in place.
		
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Yes, god forbid we have a vote on Brexit that, in the opinion of many economists if it goes one way, may well end up in a poor position for the country. I mean that would never happen.....


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## delc (Oct 19, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You should get real and face up to the fact that the UK is leaving the EU, moaning and backbiting is a futile exercise in delusion.

Your comment regarding driving the country over a cliff is also an exaggeration and pathetically negative.

Regarding that article.  It points out that Westminster might get a vote on the final deal but what good is that!  It will be matter of leaving with whatever the negotiations achieve or leave with nothing. Either way we will be leaving.
		
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Fortunately Mrs May seems to be very risk averse and incapable of making hard decisions, e.g. London's new runway, so maybe there is hope yet!


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2016)

delc said:



			Fortunately Mrs May seems to be very risk averse and incapable of making decisions, e.g. London's new runway, so maybe there is hope yet!
		
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The London runway sage has been going on for nearly a decade now and you are having a go at a lady who has only been in office for a couple of months ?!

Maybe she is taking her time to ensure what ever decision is made is the right way as opposed to blundering into something and making a mess of it - imagine that for one min , a PM who is actually thinking about the affects of any decision she or her government might make.


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## delc (Oct 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The London runway sage has been going on for nearly a decade now and you are having a go at a lady who has only been in office for a couple of months ?!

Maybe she is taking her time to ensure what ever decision is made is the right way as opposed to blundering into something and making a mess of it - imagine that for one min , a PM who is actually thinking about the affects of any decision she or her government might make.
		
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She is a Tory, so that is unlikely!


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## jp5 (Oct 19, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			a PM who is actually thinking about the affects of any decision she or her government might make.
		
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Got to be pretty naive to believe that. Has kicked the decision into the long grass to minimise division while this Brexit mess is sorted out.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Got to be pretty naive to believe that. Has kicked the decision into the long grass to minimise division while this Brexit mess is sorted out.
		
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*The Government are set to make a decision on the expansion of Heathrow Airport by the end of the month, Downing Street have said.

Number 10 refused to clarify reports that Theresa May had ordered a "short pause" to give ministers a chance to air their views before a final decision is taken on whether to build a new runway at Heathrow or Gatwick.

However, the Prime Minister's official spokeswoman said Mrs May was determined to get the decision "right" so that future generations would get the full benefits of airport expansion.*

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.st...ll-be-made-later-this-month-a3371531.html?amp

You and Delc aren't labour supporters by any chance


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## Hobbit (Oct 19, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Got to be pretty naive to believe that. Has kicked the decision into the long grass to minimise division while this Brexit mess is sorted out.
		
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Or sensibly deferred it, not wanting too much financial risk at the same time. Depends entirely what your political leaning is and what spin you want to put on it.


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## jp5 (Oct 19, 2016)

Actually you are right - once Brexit is complete we might not need to expand either!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2016)

delc said:



			Fortunately Mrs May seems to be very risk averse and incapable of making hard decisions, e.g. London's new runway, so maybe there is hope yet!
		
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My post was about Parliament voting on the outcome of negotiations between the UK and EU.  I take it from your post you concede you were wrong and will move on to another negative piece of balderdash


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2016)

delc said:



			She is a Tory, so that is unlikely!
		
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And you are an armchair Socialist so your opinion on her is unlikely to be based on anything of much substance.


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## delc (Oct 19, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			And you are an armchair Socialist so your opinion on her is unlikely to be based on anything of much substance.
		
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No, I voted Conservative and for David Cameron as PM at the last election, and was a Young Conservative many years ago! However I am a One-Nation Conservative and deeply distrust the hard right wing of the Party, who seem to have taken control since the Brexit vote!


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## Val (Oct 19, 2016)

jp5 said:



			You and I individually have little influence I am sure! 

But there are people and organisations which are rightly exerting pressure on shaping the outcome.
		
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And large businesses who make threats like Travis Perkins did today.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 19, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not sure I agree with having a vote on the Brexit agreement. What happens if MP's vote against the Brexit agreement? We leave the EU with no deal agreed and end up with WTO rules and tariffs on trade and no other agreements in any area in place. Surely that can't be good for the country and the government would have had to negotiate a shocking deal with the EU for it to be worse than leaving with no deal in place.
		
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Well maybe the government negotiates a deal that they can be sure of getting through a vote.  

A Tory government winging a vote as Cameron did with both the Scottish Referendum and the EU Referendum - or daring MPs to vote down a deal many MPs don't like - would not be a great idea.  Unless of course May would be happy to exit without a deal.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 19, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You should get real and face up to the fact that the UK is leaving the EU, *moaning and backbiting *is a futile exercise in delusion.

Your comment regarding driving the country over a cliff is also an exaggeration and pathetically negative.

Regarding that article.  It points out that Westminster might get a vote on the final deal but what good is that!  It will be matter of leaving with whatever the negotiations achieve or leave with nothing. Either way we will be leaving.
		
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You do go on about us who voted to Remain being moaners and backbiters.  In fact I suggest that is just your perception - perhaps because you are not so sure of your ground and the benefits of leaving as you would like to portray. 

Because I don't hear much moaning or backbiting from us.  We are simply asking the same questions and asking about the same risks as we did prior to the vote.  In general these concerns have not gone away - in fact some of them are starting to come to pass.  That isn't moaning - it's just pointing things out and asking what's going to be done about it - and to be done about the other risks and issues that we were concerned about and that pooh pooh'd and dismissed as Project Fear.  Well I am still rather fearful for the future.


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## JCW (Oct 19, 2016)

It will not take place , MP`s will vote it out .....................EYG


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 19, 2016)

JCW said:



			It will not take place , MP`s will vote it out .....................EYG
		
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Except that the MPs are not getting to vote on triggering Art50.  And once that is triggered it would appear that we are out - whatever the result of a vote on the terms of engagement with the EU on leaving.  If the MPs vote it down - we are still out - just with no agreement with the EU.  Or could we continue to negotiate - can the two year period be extended?  If not then May best get a deal together for a vote a good few months before the 2yrs is up - just in case MPs don't like it.


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## ger147 (Oct 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Except that the MPs are not getting to vote on triggering Art50.  And once that is triggered it would appear that we are out - whatever the result of a vote on the terms of engagement with the EU on leaving.  If the MPs vote it down - we are still out - just with no agreement with the EU.  Or could we continue to negotiate - can the two year period be extended?  If not then May best get a deal together for a vote a good few months before the 2yrs is up - just in case MPs don't like it.
		
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That apparently is not in fact the case. An Article 50 declaration can be withdrawn at any point before a deal is reached and ratified by the EU or the 2 year deadline expires.


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## JCW (Oct 19, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Except that the MPs are not getting to vote on triggering Art50.  And once that is triggered it would appear that we are out - whatever the result of a vote on the terms of engagement with the EU on leaving.  If the MPs vote it down - we are still out - just with no agreement with the EU.  Or could we continue to negotiate - can the two year period be extended?  If not then May best get a deal together for a vote a good few months before the 2yrs is up - just in case MPs don't like it.
		
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We will still be in , watch this space , its starting to hit one in the pocket , I also like to see any future vote on anything be one that it must be clear cut to be law , ie , at least 60 % of the vote for not a close run one like this was , and that was down to lies , sure of it .............EYG


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2016)

JCW said:



			We will still be in , watch this space , its starting to hit one in the pocket , I also like to see any future vote on anything be one that it must be clear cut to be law , ie , at least 60 % of the vote for not a close run one like this was , and that was down to lies , sure of it .............EYG
		
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Pure delusion.  We are leaving period!  EYD


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## vkurup (Oct 20, 2016)

While we all want to 'get on with it', here is another sound bite.. don't know how valid the research is.. http://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-vote-regret-leave-margin-victory-2016-10

Would have been lot easier if the margin of victory/loss was more comprehensive..


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You do go on about us who voted to Remain being moaners and backbiters.  In fact I suggest that is just your perception - perhaps because you are not so sure of your ground and the benefits of leaving as you would like to portray. 

*Because I don't hear much moaning or backbiting from us.*  We are simply asking the same questions and asking about the same risks as we did prior to the vote.  In general these concerns have not gone away - in fact some of them are starting to come to pass.  That isn't moaning - it's just pointing things out and asking what's going to be done about it - and to be done about the other risks and issues that we were concerned about and that pooh pooh'd and dismissed as Project Fear.  Well I am still rather fearful for the future.
		
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You have turned it into a pastime!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2016)

ger147 said:



			That apparently is not in fact the case. An Article 50 declaration can be withdrawn at any point before a deal is reached and ratified by the EU or the 2 year deadline expires.
		
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I had heard discussion of that - and my understanding of why they think this is possible is because there is nothing in Art50 to say that triggering it is a_ fait accomplis _ - and that the triggering can't be withdrawn.  Because no-one ever thought that a country would ever trigger it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You have turned it into a pastime!
		
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Sorry - we don't.  My only real complaint and concern is that we haven't seen a top-level plan that gets us to end March and I would expect us to have one and for it to be public knowledge.  

I am however looking for answers to questions we who voted Remain asked before the vote - and for which we are still not getting any answers - with the standard rejoinder being "stop moaning - we can't reveal our hand" - and that doesn't help anyone.


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## ger147 (Oct 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I had heard discussion of that - and my understanding of why they think this is possible is because there is nothing in Art50 to say that triggering it is a_ fait accomplis _ - and that the triggering can't be withdrawn.  Because no-one ever thought that a country would ever trigger it.
		
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http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-how-does-article-50-work-2016-7


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## Hobbit (Oct 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - we don't.  My only real complaint and concern is that we haven't seen a top-level plan that gets us to end March and I would expect us to have one and for it to be public knowledge.  

I am however looking for answers to questions we who voted Remain asked before the vote - and for which we are still not getting any answers - with the standard rejoinder being "stop moaning - we can't reveal our hand" - and that doesn't help anyone.
		
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Just an off the cuff thought. What would telling Joe Public what the overall plan is achieve? And would telling political opponents just see them use it to their own political ends, e.g. telling Sturgeon would no doubt see it used to stoke the fires of independence? And why tell Joe Public half a plan, or just the framework?

I would prefer it put together in secret until it has to go before parliament for the very reasons people have expressed previously.


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## Fyldewhite (Oct 20, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Just an off the cuff thought. What would telling Joe Public what the overall plan is achieve? And would telling political opponents just see them use it to their own political ends, e.g. telling Sturgeon would no doubt see it used to stoke the fires of independence? And why tell Joe Public half a plan, or just the framework?

I would prefer it put together in secret until it has to go before parliament for the very reasons people have expressed previously.
		
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The vote went the way it did but it was a simple Yes/No question. The reality is clearly not going to be so simple. What I don't think anyone voted for was for the future of the country, decisions that will affect every one of us, our children and our children's children to be made in secret by a small number of Tory MP's and then to be implemented come what may, without recourse to the people via either a general election of another referendum. I don't recall the second option on the June 23rd ballot paper being "Leave the European Union at all cost". Of course that probably isn't what is being planned/negotiated but I do feel a bit of transparency wouldn't go amiss. Works both ways too, as I'm sure many ardent Brexiters are worried they will get a watered down version of what they wanted.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 20, 2016)

Just a thought, a hypothetical....

*IF*, over the next couple of years, it becomes clear that leaving the EU is going to be disastrous for the economy, should the government carry on regardless citing the referendum, or should they apply some pragmatism and try to find an alternative?


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## Hobbit (Oct 20, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			The vote went the way it did but it was a simple Yes/No question. The reality is clearly not going to be so simple. What I don't think anyone voted for was for the future of the country, decisions that will affect every one of us, our children and our children's children to be made in secret by a small number of Tory MP's and then to be implemented come what may, without recourse to the people via either a general election of another referendum. I don't recall the second option on the June 23rd ballot paper being "Leave the European Union at all cost". Of course that probably isn't what is being planned/negotiated but I do feel a bit of transparency wouldn't go amiss. Works both ways too, as I'm sure many ardent Brexiters are worried they will get a watered down version of what they wanted.
		
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I voted for the in or out decision. As you say, it didn't all the bells and whistles but that was what should have been getting put before the voters during the campaign so that they could make an informed choice. Does the ballot paper at a General Election have all the manifestos written on it? No, it all part of the canvassing, as it was in the run up to the Brexit vote.

I genuinely don't see why I need to know about all the negotiations. And let's be honest, many people wouldn't understand the detail of the agreement. However, I do feel that the final agreement needs to be put before parliament.


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## Hobbit (Oct 20, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Just a thought, a hypothetical....

*IF*, over the next couple of years, it becomes clear that leaving the EU is going to be disastrous for the economy, should the government carry on regardless citing the referendum, or should they apply some pragmatism and try to find an alternative?
		
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If you held a gun to your head but thought this might hurt would you still pull the trigger? I'd hope that parliament would use its prerogative.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 20, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Just an off the cuff thought. What would telling Joe Public what the overall plan is achieve? And would telling political opponents just see them use it to their own political ends, e.g. telling Sturgeon would no doubt see it used to stoke the fires of independence? And why tell Joe Public half a plan, or just the framework?

I would prefer it put together in secret until it has to go before parliament for the very reasons people have expressed previously.
		
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So in your world Scotland's 54 MP's and the Scottish Government would have no say whatsoever in Brexit discussions.
That is not quite in the spirit of Better Together.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Just an off the cuff thought. What would telling Joe Public what the overall plan is achieve? And would telling political opponents just see them use it to their own political ends, e.g. telling Sturgeon would no doubt see it used to stoke the fires of independence? And why tell Joe Public half a plan, or just the framework?

I would prefer it put together in secret until it has to go before parliament for the very reasons people have expressed previously.
		
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I'm not talking about our negotiating stance and objectives - I am simply talking about the *steps *government will go through to *reach *the negotiating stance and end March when Art50 is triggered - and identify who will be invited to contribute at each step along the way to that point.

It would show us all - and specifically it would show the Scottish government and members of the SNP who whinge about lack of Scottish Government and Civil Service input, just where that input is happening.  Doing so would burst their balloon of indignation and complaint.


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2016)

Fyldewhite said:



			The vote went the way it did but it was a simple Yes/No question. The reality is clearly not going to be so simple. *What I don't think anyone voted for was for the future of the country, decisions that will affect every one of us, our children and our children's children to be made in secret by a small number of Tory MP's and then to be implemented come what may, without recourse to the people via either a general election of another referendum. I don't recall the second option on the June 23rd ballot paper being "Leave the European Union at all cost". Of course that probably isn't what is being planned/negotiated but I do feel a bit of transparency wouldn't go amiss.* Works both ways too, as I'm sure many ardent Brexiters are worried they will get a watered down version of what they wanted.
		
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Given the expectation that Parliament will get a say on the actual deal, if perhaps not on over-riding the referendum result (that would be a vile corruption of parliamentary power imo!) then it's up to the May to organise, cajole, threaten (and perhaps 'buy'!) Cabinet and then her MPs to get approval! Of course, an effective opposition would be challenging most of the decisions and presenting their alternatives, but a) I don't believe HM Opposition is actually effective - being well into the process of self-destruction! b) There are quite a few Labour MPs who supported Brexit - though I believe far fewer than Conservative ones that supported Remain and c) The consequences of not approving some sort of deal means that the result is 'no deal' 2 years after Article 50 is triggered - which would be a far worse result!!

And there is no doubt in my mind that Article 50 will be triggered! This interview (especially the 1st 40 secs) sums up my view, the rest showing how much 'openness' there actually is - though I do wish they would refrain from talking about negotiations a if it's a game of Poker!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So in your world Scotland's 54 MP's and the Scottish Government would have no say whatsoever in Brexit discussions.
That is not quite in the spirit of Better Together.
		
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Can you supply us with some evidence that they have no say whatsoever?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Given the expectation that Parliament will get a say on the actual deal, if perhaps not on over-riding the referendum result (that would be a vile corruption of parliamentary power imo!) then it's up to the May to organise, cajole, threaten (and perhaps 'buy'!) Cabinet and then her MPs to get approval! Of course, an effective opposition would be challenging most of the decisions and presenting their alternatives, but a) I don't believe HM Opposition is actually effective - being well into the process of self-destruction! b) There are quite a few Labour MPs who supported Brexit - though I believe far fewer than Conservative ones that supported Remain and c) The consequences of not approving some sort of deal means that the result is 'no deal' 2 years after Article 50 is triggered - which would be a far worse result!!

And there is no doubt in my mind that Article 50 will be triggered! This interview (especially the 1st 40 secs) sums up my view, the rest showing how much 'openness' there actually is - though *I do wish they would refrain from talking about negotiations a if it's a game of Poker!*

Click to expand...

Yes - this is irritating - it's NOT a bleedin' game - it's the future of our country.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*I'm not talking about our negotiating stance and objectives - I am simply talking about the steps government will go through to reach the negotiating stance and end March when Art50 is triggered - and identify who will be invited to contribute at each step along the way to that point.
*
It would show us all - and specifically it would show the Scottish government and members of the SNP who whinge about lack of Scottish Government and Civil Service input, just where that input is happening.  Doing so would burst their balloon of indignation and complaint.
		
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Does anything in government policy ever work that way?  I think it is extremely naive and unrealistic to expect to be informed every step of the way on what work is being prepared for discussion.

In the run up to the referendum I suggested the Government and especially Cameron was wrong to not offer a strategy for leaving the EU so that we had an opportunity to vote on the plan to stay or leave.   I had a lot of criticism for this view from the Remainers saying that the Government didn't need to have a plan for a situation they didn't want to happen.   Now we get nothing but "Whats the plan, whats the plan"  I also get the impression that rather than face up to the reality of the UK leaving the EU many prefer to stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'La la la la la'


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - this is irritating - it's NOT a bleedin' game - it's the future of our country.
		
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What a revelation, we were not aware of that and were looking forward to playing games with the countries future.  Thanks for pointing it out to us.


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## Hobbit (Oct 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So in your world Scotland's 54 MP's and the Scottish Government would have no say whatsoever in Brexit discussions.
That is not quite in the spirit of Better Together.
		
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In the REAL world, membership of the EU and of foreign policy doesn't fall under the remit of the devolved powers. Who's pulling away from who? Tough, suck it up.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Does anything in government policy ever work that way?  I think it is extremely naive and unrealistic to expect to be informed every step of the way on what work is being prepared for discussion.

In the run up to the referendum I suggested the Government and especially Cameron was wrong to not offer a strategy for leaving the EU so that we had an opportunity to vote on the plan to stay or leave.   I had a lot of criticism for this view from the Remainers saying that the Government didn't need to have a plan for a situation they didn't want to happen.   Now we get nothing but "Whats the plan, whats the plan"  I also get the impression that rather than face up to the reality of the UK leaving the EU many prefer to stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'La la la la la'
		
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You often complain that you are banging your head against a wall with me - but I feel the same on this with you.  I will repeat - I am not asking for the detail of the negotiating stance we will adopt on triggering Art50 and March 2017.  But there will be steps to reach there: 

> Brexit Ministers Appointed - Status 100% complete
> Core Government Brexit Team (CBT) Appointed - Status 100% complete
> Brexit Negotiating Stance and Negotiating Plan (NSNP) teams established - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Brexit Team have an initial draft NSNP - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Draft NSNP signed off by Cabinet and PM - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Devolved governments and Civil Service provided with NSNP for their review - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Top Level Feedback on NSNP from Devolved governments and Civil Service provided to CBT - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Feedback review meetings between CBT and Devolved Govs Ministers scheduled - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Feedback review meeting : CBT and Scottish Gov Ministers (Nicola Sturgeon and Mike Russell) - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Scottish Civil Service Review and Negotiations with Westminster Civil Service - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?

...and so on and so forth

This sort of stuff.  Nothing to do with the actual stance.

And as mentioned elsewhere - this says we have a resourced plan that can be tracked and reported against.  Yes -0 it might show slippage.  But that's a fact of life - and best we know where there are issues reaching any milestone.#

This MUST exist - government departments and 'agencies' are good at creating plans - if not so good at sticking to them.  I have done a lot of work with the DWP, HMRC, Cabinet Office, BBC in my time.


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So in your world Scotland's 54 MP's and the Scottish Government would have no say whatsoever in Brexit discussions.
That is not quite in the spirit of Better Together.
		
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Brexit discussions are the responsibility of HM Government! As Scotland's 54 MPs are not part of Government, they should/will be formally informed at the same time as other opposition parties! There may, of course, be some informal discussions, just like what happens with any other parliamentary issue!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			In the REAL world, membership of the EU and of foreign policy doesn't fall under the remit of the devolved powers. Who's pulling away from who? Tough, suck it up.
		
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But you must recall (and those who voted YES in IndyRef1 will not forget) that BT and the UK Gov stated that the only way to guarantee membership of the EU for Scotland was staying in the UK, and they were effusive in stating that Scotland is, and would continue to be, a valued and equal partner in the UK.

The Scottish Secretary is part of the UK Government.  Though #1 representative of equal partner Scotland, Mundell is not on the Brexit core team when Angela Leadsom is.  I am sure that looks good to many north of the border.


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## PieMan (Oct 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This MUST exist - government departments and 'agencies' are good at creating plans - if not so good at sticking to them.  I have done a lot of work with the DWP, HMRC, Cabinet Office, BBC in my time.
		
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Given your experience of working with Government Departments and therefore I assume knowledge of how policy is formulated and as such internal plans for delivering projects or developing/implementing policy, how many were shared publically?


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## delc (Oct 20, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Does anything in government policy ever work that way?  I think it is extremely naive and unrealistic to expect to be informed every step of the way on what work is being prepared for discussion.

In the run up to the referendum I suggested the Government and especially Cameron was wrong to not offer a strategy for leaving the EU so that we had an opportunity to vote on the plan to stay or leave.   I had a lot of criticism for this view from the Remainers saying that the Government didn't need to have a plan for a situation they didn't want to happen.   Now we get nothing but "Whats the plan, whats the plan"  I also get the impression that rather than face up to the reality of the UK leaving the EU many prefer to stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'La la la la la'
		
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My distinct impression was the Leave compaign didn't expect to win, just get a high enough percentage of the vote to fire a warning shot across the bows of the EU. Certainly Boris Johnson looked a bit shocked and worried when he was told that his side had won!


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 20, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Can you supply us with some evidence that they have no say whatsoever?
		
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Please read the post that I have replied to.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 20, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			In the REAL world, membership of the EU and of foreign policy doesn't fall under the remit of the devolved powers. Who's pulling away from who? Tough, suck it up.
		
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Blimey you must have worked hard on that reply [and nearly got away with it.]:lol:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2016)

PieMan said:



			Given your experience of working with Government Departments and therefore I assume knowledge of how policy is formulated and as such internal plans for delivering projects or developing/implementing policy, how many were shared publically?
		
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You are quite right - but the plans I see include dependencies coming in from the internal departmental activities I do not see the detail of.  I do however often have visibility of the top level departmental timeline(s) so we can understand and assess risk around the dependencies.

Besides - this is not an internal government department project delivering to a government department.  This is a department delivering to the country as a whole.  

Besides I do not see any issue with making public the top-level timeline - especially if doing so means that whinging by such as the SNP over their lack of involvement can be silenced as we can all SEE where the Scottish Government and Scottish Civil Service will be involved.  

The Scottish electorate have expectations set by BT and the Westminster government of the level of involvement a Scottish Government would have in major decisions such as Brexit.  It is that constituency who will continue to complain and if not already in the YES camp - will drift towards it.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Please read the post that I have replied to.
		
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As all of your posts are clueless witterings and trolling, its a bit difficult to understand how any of it is relevant.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You often complain that you are banging your head against a wall with me - but I feel the same on this with you.  I will repeat - I am not asking for the detail of the negotiating stance we will adopt on triggering Art50 and March 2017.  But there will be steps to reach there: 

> Brexit Ministers Appointed - Status 100% complete
> Core Government Brexit Team (CBT) Appointed - Status 100% complete
> Brexit Negotiating Stance and Negotiating Plan (NSNP) teams established - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Brexit Team have an initial draft NSNP - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Draft NSNP signed off by Cabinet and PM - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Devolved governments and Civil Service provided with NSNP for their review - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Top Level Feedback on NSNP from Devolved governments and Civil Service provided to CBT - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Feedback review meetings between CBT and Devolved Govs Ministers scheduled - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Feedback review meeting : CBT and Scottish Gov Ministers (Nicola Sturgeon and Mike Russell) - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?
> Scottish Civil Service Review and Negotiations with Westminster Civil Service - Baseline Milestone Date: ? Status ?

...and so on and so forth

This sort of stuff.  Nothing to do with the actual stance.

And as mentioned elsewhere - this says we have a resourced plan that can be tracked and reported against.  Yes -0 it might show slippage.  But that's a fact of life - and best we know where there are issues reaching any milestone.#

This MUST exist - government departments and 'agencies' are good at creating plans - if not so good at sticking to them.  I have done a lot of work with the DWP, HMRC, Cabinet Office, BBC in my time.
		
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Do you honestly believe the Government should put out that type of information to the General Public?   Have you ever seen this released with other Government policy and we are not talking about some kind of out sourcing of hardware project here.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you honestly believe the Government should put out that type of information to the General Public?   Have you ever seen this released with other Government policy and we are not talking about some kind of out sourcing of hardware project here.
		
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Do you not read WHY I suggest it would be useful.  This is not just some government policy that can be reversed by the next government.  Apart from the fact that we know the end date we know nothing about what is going to happen and who is going to be engaged in discussions and when.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			As all of your posts are clueless witterings and trolling, its a bit difficult to understand how any of it is relevant.
		
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I thank you for these kind words.


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## Hobbit (Oct 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Blimey you must have worked hard on that reply [and nearly got away with it.]:lol:
		
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I suppose I could have put a thesis together but it would have come to the same conclusion. Am I wrong, does Scotland have a seat at the table when discussing foreign policy for the UK, or is that down to the party that is in power in Westminster? You know the answer but just don't like it.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Do you not read WHY I suggest it would be useful.  This is not just some government policy that can be reversed by the next government.  Apart from the fact that we know the end date we know nothing about what is going to happen and who is going to be engaged in discussions and when.
		
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Your expectations for the Public to get an updated project plan on the preparation for Brexit negotiations is bizarre and unrealistic in my opinion.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I thank you for these kind words.
		
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No need they were not directed at you.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Your expectations for the Public to get an updated project plan on the preparation for Brexit negotiations is bizarre and unrealistic in my opinion.
		
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And I don't think that it is - or at least for parliament (and the public) to periodic reports of progress against a plan and 'what happens next'.

You might as well accept that we _Remainers _will not just shut up - democracy is a process not an event.  There are questions to be answered and this is too important to just be left to the PM and a small coterie of ministers to decide upon - when the Leave majority was not in fact that significant - and they did not vote for any specific initial negotiation stance or end objectives - other than the rather simplistic, undefined but hugely significant one of leaving the EU.


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## PieMan (Oct 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You might as well accept that we _Remainers _will not just shut up - democracy is a process not an event.
		
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Is there not an argument then that whatever the Government says about Brexit, the hard-core Remainers won't accept it and say it's not good enough?


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## NWJocko (Oct 20, 2016)

PieMan said:



			They don't need to be as the Scottish, Welsh and NI respective Governments are engaging with officials in Whitehall Government Departments on all Brexit matters. For example, on the EU Structural Funds - which accounts for an obscene amount of EU money and matched national contributions, officials from the Devolved Administrations are liaising directly with HMT officials on what funding programmes can be delivered during the exit negotiations; and what any future programmes will look like.
		
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PieMan said:



			As I pointed out in my previous post, Devolved Administration officials are currently actively engaged in Brexit discussions with counterparts in Whitehall Departments, so in effect those Governments are being represented and there is an 'equal partnership' in operation.
		
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PieMan said:



			Scotland is a country with it's own Government, so along with Wales and Northern Ireland, as part of the UK, will have a voice in the Brexit negotiations. However, in line with the devolved settlements, it is the Westminster Government that physically represents the UK in EU and international negotiations. It should also be noted that whenever Government officials attend EU meetings, they do so along agreed 'UK' lines.
		
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PieMan said:



			:rofl: :thup: Yes I sometimes wonder whether all those meetings and conference calls I've been involved in since end June with officials from a number of Government departments, Devolved Administrations, and stakeholder representatives have not actually taken place; and we all have no idea what we're doing!!

Think I'll leave this thread alone now!!
		
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DfT and SiLH

Please, please, please read and digest these posts from someone who does actually know what is going on.

Your constant, stereotypical sniping that "us wee Scots are being left out by the nasty English" is incredibly tiresome :thup:

I agree that publicising the fact that Scotland is in fact having an input would help shut up some of the usual SNP nonsense and I really wish they would but no need for you pair to keep perpetuating that on here now is there?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2016)

PieMan said:



			Is there not an argument then that whatever the Government says about Brexit, the hard-core Remainers won't accept it and say it's not good enough?
		
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I might say that as a _Remainer _I will keep my cards to myself in respect of what would be acceptable to me.  No point in me revealing my objectives and areas of flexibility before the 'game of poke her (sic)' starts.  But we will be 'poking' the side of the PM to remind her that we are here and not going away.


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## Val (Oct 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But you must recall (and those who voted YES in IndyRef1 will not forget) that BT and the UK Gov stated that the only way to guarantee membership of the EU for Scotland was staying in the UK, and they were effusive in stating that Scotland is, and would continue to be, a valued and equal partner in the UK.

The Scottish Secretary is part of the UK Government.  Though #1 representative of equal partner Scotland, Mundell is not on the Brexit core team when Angela Leadsom is.  I am sure that looks good to many north of the border.
		
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And it was the only way to guarantee it. The Eu you'll recall said if they want entry it was as a new state, you'll also recall the EU referendum was always known about pre indyref.

So at the time yes, it was the only guarantee. 

I should add from a Scottish perspective, the fatuation with EU single market is harmful. The aim should be to retain and cement ties with the U.K. market as it is way more valuable to the Scottish economy than the EU market and the only way to guarantee that is to remain.


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## PieMan (Oct 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I might say that as a _Remainer _I will keep my cards to myself in respect of what would be acceptable to me.  No point in me revealing my objectives and areas of flexibility before the 'game of poke her (sic)' starts.  But we will be 'poking' the side of the PM to remind her that we are here and not going away.
		
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Which you are fully entitled to do of course. You obviously care passionately in what you believe in and that is admirable. You do have the option of putting in a Freedom of Information request to DexEU asking for the kind of information outlined in one of your earlier posts - have you considered that route? And there's also the option of writing to your MP outlining your views and asking them to forward on to the Secretary of State concerned.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2016)

PieMan said:



			Which you are fully entitled to do of course. You obviously care passionately in what you believe in and that is admirable. You do have the option of putting in a Freedom of Information request to DexEU asking for the kind of information outlined in one of your earlier posts - have you considered that route? And there's also the option of writing to your MP outlining your views and asking them to forward on to the Secretary of State concerned.
		
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All I am asking for is a bit of clarity about what is happening, and actually I am suggesting it as a simple means to shut up the SNP and their whinging.  I am not contesting in any way what _@PieMan _is saying, in fact I had no doubt that the things _@PieMan _ has said are going on were indeed going on before his confirmation.

I have accepted that Brexit is going ahead - I would like it to be as successful as possible - but I'd like to have some indication from the government that progress is being made towards an initial negotiation position and desired outcomes - I don't need to know what these are - and that the appropriate representation from the devolved governments is being involved at the appropriate points along the way.  Nothing more.

Maybe I'll ask my MP - Mr Jeremy Hunt.


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## Hobbit (Oct 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			All I am asking for is a bit of clarity about what is happening, and actually I am suggesting it as a simple means to shut up the SNP and their whinging.  I am not contesting in any way what _@PieMan _is saying, in fact I had no doubt that the things _@PieMan _ has said are going on were indeed going on before his confirmation.

I have accepted that Brexit is going ahead - I would like it to be as successful as possible - but I'd like to have some indication from the government that progress is being made towards an initial negotiation position and desired outcomes - I don't need to know what these are - and that the appropriate representation from the devolved governments is being involved at the appropriate points along the way.  Nothing more.

Maybe I'll ask my MP - Mr Jeremy Hunt.
		
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I can understand your desire for clarity, just as I can see why the markets want it too. Clarity gives the EU an advantage, and splitting hairs about how much is safe to divulge is semantics. Markets might want it but it will weaken the UK's position. And without it there will be market turbulence in the short term but it will benefit the UK more to be circumspect.


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## IainP (Oct 20, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I don't think we shall even leave.
		
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Oh! Didn't you read your thread title?
Thought you had cracked time travel!


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 20, 2016)

Reading comments from EU leaders regarding presenting a united front in negotiations with the UK and being tough so that other countries don't want to leave I can't see negotiations with the EU being very easy or very productive. 

If the EU were to present totally unacceptable terms that the UK couldn't possibly accept do we automatically go onto WTO rules for trade or can we choose our own terms? For instance could the UK turn round and say "Well as you aren't prepared to negotiate we will impose 100% tariffs on all goods coming into the UK from the EU and double the cost of all your goods in this country"? 

I can't imagine many people buying a BMW or a bottle of French wine at twice the current price if they could get a Japanese equivalent or New World wine at current prices. Can we do this and if so what would be the problems with this approach?


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 20, 2016)

By 



ColchesterFC said:



			Reading comments from EU leaders regarding presenting a united front in negotiations with the UK and being tough so that other countries don't want to leave I can't see negotiations with the EU being very easy or very productive. 

If the EU were to present totally unacceptable terms that the UK couldn't possibly accept do we automatically go onto WTO rules for trade or can we choose our own terms? For instance could the UK turn round and say "Well as you aren't prepared to negotiate we will impose 100% tariffs on all goods coming into the UK from the EU and double the cost of all your goods in this country"? 

I can't imagine many people buying a BMW or a bottle of French wine at twice the current price if they could get a Japanese equivalent or New World wine at current prices. Can we do this and if so what would be the problems with this approach?
		
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It is insular , isolationist and vastly overestimates our importance to the EU when it comes to how desperate they will be to give us a good deal. And if the brexiters couldn't see this coming then they were not trying very hard .


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## USER1999 (Oct 20, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			By 

It is insular , isolationist and vastly overestimates our importance to the EU when it comes to how desperate they will be to give us a good deal. And if the brexiters couldn't see this coming then they were not trying very hard .
		
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But it's not just about money is it. Nothing is ever solely about money, whether it's indy ref 1, indy ref 2, Brexit,  etc. There are other issues, that are being ignored. For me, freedom of movement within the EU is garbage. I work in North London,  and it's swamped with eastern Europeans,  who have hugely different values to me.


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Reading comments from EU leaders regarding presenting a united front in negotiations with the UK and being tough so that other countries don't want to leave I can't see negotiations with the EU being very easy or very productive. 

If the EU were to present totally unacceptable terms that the UK couldn't possibly accept do we automatically go onto WTO rules for trade or can we choose our own terms? For instance could the UK turn round and say "Well as you aren't prepared to negotiate we will impose 100% tariffs on all goods coming into the UK from the EU and double the cost of all your goods in this country"? 

I can't imagine many people buying a BMW or a bottle of French wine at twice the current price if they could get a Japanese equivalent or New World wine at current prices. Can we do this and if so what would be the problems with this approach?
		
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WTO rules for trade are a 'last resort', where a free trade agreement doesn't exist.

UK and all other EU members are WTO members. As a 'Customs Territory' the EU is also a member. 

As such, but with a tiny number of specific exceptions, all WTO members must be given 'Most Favoured Nation' rates. So bumping tariffs solely for EU countries would break the rules!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I can understand your desire for clarity, just as I can see why the markets want it too. Clarity gives the EU an advantage, and splitting hairs about how much is safe to divulge is semantics. Markets might want it but it will weaken the UK's position. And without it there will be market turbulence in the short term but it will benefit the UK more to be circumspect.
		
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What possible advantage can the EU glean from knowing at a top level the process (and it's timescales) the government will go through to reach a definition of their initial negotiating position and objectives by end March?


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			WTO rules for trade are a 'last resort', where a free trade agreement doesn't exist.

UK and all other EU members are WTO members. As a 'Customs Territory' the EU is also a member. 

As such, but with a tiny number of specific exceptions, all WTO members must be given 'Most Favoured Nation' rates. So bumping tariffs solely for EU countries would break the rules!
		
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OK. Cheers for the reply. Was interested to know how hard ball the UK could play in negotiations. The EU are saying they won't allow access to the single market without free movement so wondered what the options are for the UK to try and change that position.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Reading comments from EU leaders regarding presenting a united front in negotiations with the UK and being tough so that other countries don't want to leave I can't see negotiations with the EU being very easy or very productive. 

If the EU were to present totally unacceptable terms that the UK couldn't possibly accept do we automatically go onto WTO rules for trade or can we choose our own terms? For instance could the UK turn round and say "Well as you aren't prepared to negotiate we will impose 100% tariffs on all goods coming into the UK from the EU and double the cost of all your goods in this country"? 

I can't imagine many people buying a BMW or a bottle of French wine at twice the current price if they could get a Japanese equivalent or New World wine at current prices. Can we do this and if so what would be the problems with this approach?
		
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Or indeed if the UK were to present totally unacceptable terms that the EU couldn't possibly accept do we automatically go onto WTO rules for trade.

Because the EU is clearly saying there will be no negotiation before Art50 is triggered and we can forget any idea we might have about getting any indication from the EU prior to Art50 of areas where the EU might be flexible .

The UK knows what the EU red line is in respect of the single market and freedom of movement,  if we do not present an initial set of objectives that accepts and reflects that position I suspect we will be told to shove it.

Because to Germany especially, the EU and a united Europe is of very different importance than it is to us.  A senior German minister (or may have been their ambassador to the UK) said yesterday that if it came down to the unity of the rest of the EU and adherence to it's core principles - or Germany taking an economic hit - they would take the economic hit.  I hope that our self importance does not cause us to ignore that possibility.


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## JCW (Oct 20, 2016)

We are where we are today because a lot voted out without knowing the facts , example , guy I know from golf said to me when I asked him about it just after the vote , he said great in it , we got our country back , what have we got back then I asked him , did not have a clue , attack on EU citizens over here have gone up to as people , well to me they are bigots , me , I was all set to vote out but change my mind on the day as I did not have the facts about getting out and its still a guessing  today .................. will it get better , how long will it take , who knows , some things about the EU needs changing , yes border control being one , but we can still stay in and say we want change or more controls on that , anyway I like many are now seeing the pound worth less and my aim to retire in the sun is on hold as the  pound is weak , I like to see a stronger pound in or out ......just have to lump it for now ............EYG


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The UK knows what the EU red line is in respect of the single market and freedom of movement,  if we do not present an initial set of objectives that accepts and reflects that position I suspect we will be told to shove it.
		
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And that's exactly where I think the problems will start. Having control of immigration was one of the key reasons that people voted to leave. If the EU won't negotiate on that point and demand freedom of movement for access to the single market and it seems that the UK can't budge on it then where do we go from there?

EDIT - that question is more aimed at those that voted to leave rather than you, SiLH.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2016)

Ah good - Ken Clarke is on QT


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Ah good - Ken Clarke is on QT
		
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Why?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 20, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Why? 

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I like him - and he wears Hush Puppies


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## Foxholer (Oct 20, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I like him - and he wears Hush Puppies
		
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So do I (like him). Not keen on HPs though - except in a line of a JB song! He should be wearing UK made equivalents too!

I hope there's also a Brexiter to 'balance' his views/temper his demands!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2016)

Watched QT last night.  And I am sorry dear Brexiteers - but no matter what the forum is (excepting this one of course) - be it QT or Any Questions or a radio phone-in - in seems to me that so many of those who voted to Leave are either completely unable to articulate why; don't seem to have much idea why; or are all over the place with misconceptions and misunderstanding and their rationale - that I do despair that it is on their votes that we are leaving.  

I am not saying they are stupid or anything like that - because clearly they believe that leaving is the right thing to do and OK - so be it.  I just wish they could be more persuasive.  But so many of their arguments just don't stack up - for me.

Hi ho, hi ho, it's out the EU we go.  Da da dee dum, da da dee dum, hi ho, hi ho...to infinity and beyond.

And I am allowed to despair.


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Watched QT last night.  And I am sorry dear Brexiteers - but no matter what the forum is (excepting this one of course) - be it QT or Any Questions or a radio phone-in - in seems to me that so many of those who voted to Leave are either completely unable to articulate why; don't seem to have much idea why; or are all over the place with misconceptions and misunderstanding and their rationale - that I do despair that it is on their votes that we are leaving.  

I am not saying they are stupid or anything like that - because clearly they believe that leaving is the right thing to do and OK - so be it.  I just wish they could be more persuasive.  But so many of their arguments just don't stack up - for me.

Hi ho, hi ho, it's out the EU we go.  Da da dee dum, da da dee dum, hi ho, hi ho...to infinity and beyond.

And I am allowed to despair.
		
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Be honest, you wouldn't accept their arguments if they were carved in wood and you were beaten about the head with it. And they wouldn't stack up for you because you already have your standpoint. They voted for their reasons, and I respect those reasons even though I disagree with them and the outcome. I've heard many Brexiters articulate their desires and I feel many of their arguments do stack up. They might not be financially as sound as the status quo but they do have a fundamental basis in a desired outcome. Sovereignty and immigration stack up. Whether they are achievable or negotiable is another story but they are easy to understand. Maybe you need to be more understanding instead of blinkered.

The campaign by Remain did little to persuade otherwise, and like the Scottish Ref campaign was riddled with fear. Even the Treasury admonished Osbourne for the numbers he was using in his pieces. Both sides performed poorly in presenting their respective cases.

By all means go ahead and despair, and whilst you are doing that others wanting out are rejoicing. Its a political choice with both sides be right.


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## USER1999 (Oct 21, 2016)

I am never quite sure why the remainers are so sure that if the UK stay in the EU, every thing will be wonderful. Even the ECB are extremely worried by the financial situation within the EU. The whole thing could go very wrong, very quickly. If Greece, Italy, Portugal, and Irelands economies fail, then the EU is going to be in a very awkward  place. Would the UK still be better off in?


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## hors limite (Oct 21, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Be honest, you wouldn't accept their arguments if they were carved in wood and you were beaten about the head with it. And they wouldn't stack up for you because you already have your standpoint. They voted for their reasons, and I respect those reasons even though I disagree with them and the outcome. I've heard many Brexiters articulate their desires and I feel many of their arguments do stack up. They might not be financially as sound as the status quo but they do have a fundamental basis in a desired outcome. Sovereignty and immigration stack up. Whether they are achievable or negotiable is another story but they are easy to understand. Maybe you need to be more understanding instead of blinkered

The campaign by Remain did little to persuade otherwise, and like the Scottish Ref campaign was riddled with fear. Even the Treasury admonished Osbourne for the numbers he was using in his pieces. Both sides performed poorly in presenting their respective cases.

By all means go ahead and despair, and whilst you are doing that others wanting out are rejoicing. Its a political choice with both sides be right.
		
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I am sorry Mr Baggins but sovereignty and immigration don't stack up when compared to the enormous potential economic downside. On top of that , immigrants from outside the EU outnumber those from within Europe and those numbers won't change. Add in all the exceptions that are being paraded and the impact on numbers is looking modest. As for " sovereignty" can someone spell out and I mean spell out what are the substantial real rewards of this nebulous claim.

I often disagree with SILH on a great number of issues but I'm with him on this one. Just the potential for job losses, many skilled and well paid and inflation, which will hit the poorest the hardest are enough to frighten the hell out of me.

When the real impact is felt, I hope that the Brexiteers will tell those on the dole that they were right and that it was all worth it.


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## jp5 (Oct 21, 2016)

Well Question Time last night was a dire reflection of Hartlepool. No wonder that bloke with a canoe faked his death and buggered off to Panama.

Booing a Polish woman for saying she felt unwelcome, absolutely disgusting.

What I wonder about is what these people will turn their hate towards once Brexit inevitably turns out to not be the golden solution they think it is.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2016)

jp5 said:



			Well Question Time last night was a dire reflection of Hartlepool. No wonder that bloke with a canoe faked his death and buggered off to Panama.

Booing a Polish woman for saying she felt unwelcome, absolutely disgusting.

What I wonder about is what these people will turn their hate towards once Brexit inevitably turns out to not be the golden solution they think it is.
		
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The audience was pretty dire - booing the Polish woman because she said she felt unwanted, and rubbishing the teacher who said that her pupils were saying things about immigrants that would only recently have been unacceptable - well - QED...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...g-no-longer-feels-welcome-UK-Brexit-vote.html

And it was the nature of the statements and actions of so many of the audience that prompted me to post above.


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2016)

hors limite said:



			I am sorry Mr Baggins but sovereignty and immigration don't stack up when compared to the enormous potential economic downside. On top of that , immigrants from outside the EU outnumber those from within Europe and those numbers won't change. Add in all the exceptions that are being paraded and the impact on numbers is looking modest. As for " sovereignty" can someone spell out and I mean spell out what are the substantial real rewards of this nebulous claim.

I often disagree with SILH on a great number of issues but I'm with him on this one. Just the potential for job losses, many skilled and well paid and inflation, which will hit the poorest the hardest are enough to frighten the hell out of me.

When the real impact is felt, I hope that the Brexiteers will tell those on the dole that they were right and that it was all worth it.
		
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Sorry but you're seeing it from the same standpoint as Hugh. You comparing those issues against something else. I'm not saying you're wrong from the perspective of inflation or jobs, or whatever standpoint *YOU* choose. But some Brexiteers saw the choice as sovereignty, others from immigration others from legislation. They are all right, as are you, because its based on a choice for something different.

Many Brexiteers acknowledged there'd be bumps in the road, and a downturn, and are willing to accept that to win their freedom from, to them, a growingly intrusive federal state. They are willing to accept that cost for change, and you are not. You want the inclusivity of the EU, and they don't.

You can scream from the roof tops that they are wrong, but in their eyes they are right.


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## vkurup (Oct 21, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Be honest, you wouldn't accept their arguments if they were carved in wood and you were beaten about the head with it. And they wouldn't stack up for you because you already have your standpoint. They voted for their reasons, and I respect those reasons even though I disagree with them and the outcome. I've heard many Brexiters articulate their desires and I feel many of their arguments do stack up. They might not be financially as sound as the status quo but they do have a fundamental basis in a desired outcome. Sovereignty and immigration stack up. Whether they are achievable or negotiable is another story but they are easy to understand. Maybe you need to be more understanding instead of blinkered.

*The campaign by Remain did little to persuade otherwise, and like the Scottish Ref campaign was riddled with fear. Even the Treasury admonished Osbourne for the numbers he was using in his pieces. Both sides performed poorly in presenting their respective cases.
*
By all means go ahead and despair, and whilst you are doing that others wanting out are rejoicing. Its a political choice with both sides be right.
		
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Most of those who voted for Leave apparently voted with their hearts to get sovereignty and reduce immigration or 'to protest, but without wanting to leave the EU'. I can understand the first 2 situations, but I pity those who cast their votes in protest and then expect a different result!! I am assuming that as a responsible adult who is eligible to vote, they understand how elections work and how every vote counts.

Equally I feel sorry for those who blame the Remain leaders for doing too little. I agree they did not do a very good job, but by blaming them you do not have the right to absolve yourself of the way you voted.  Every election the Far Right or the Far Left makes a very good emotional argument on why they are the best people to be voted in, but do you vote for them everytime? Perhaps no, because you take your time to understand what the others are offering - even if they make a weaker argument.  Sorry, any adult blaming others for why you voted Leave is like blaming your goalkeeper & team for not stopping you from scoring an own goal..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry but you're seeing it from the same standpoint as Hugh. You comparing those issues against something else. I'm not saying you're wrong from the perspective of inflation or jobs, or whatever standpoint *YOU* choose. But some Brexiteers saw the choice as sovereignty, others from immigration others from legislation. They are all right, as are you, because its based on a choice for something different.

Many Brexiteers acknowledged there'd be bumps in the road, and a downturn, and are willing to accept that to win their freedom from, to them, a growingly intrusive federal state. They are willing to accept that cost for change, and you are not. You want the inclusivity of the EU, and they don't.

You can scream from the roof tops that they are wrong, but in their eyes they are right.
		
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I just wish I could hear more Leavers articulating thought-through reasoning so that I know that they actually did know what they were voting for.  

Because, as you say, my perception that Leaving will be so wrong, may be just that - a perception based upon my own 'prejudices'.  There may be solid bases on the benefits of Leaving that more than balance out the downside.  But most of the time I just don't hear that.  And I didn't hear any coming from the Hartlepool audience last night.  All I heard was stuff that reinforced my own 'prejudices'.


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2016)

As an aside, the Deutsche Bank is close to folding. It will almost certainly need a massive top up. Germany has choices; print money and see inflation rise, call in some of its debts with Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal & Ireland, go the EU member states for a top up. If it chooses option two, those countries will struggle to pay their Public Service. Option three will see net contributors, UK being one of them, paying out. Option one won't do Merkel any good immediately before an election.


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Most of those who voted for Leave apparently voted with their hearts to get sovereignty and reduce immigration or 'to protest, but without wanting to leave the EU'. I can understand the first 2 situations, but I pity those who cast their votes in protest and then expect a different result!! I am assuming that as a responsible adult who is eligible to vote, they understand how elections work and how every vote counts.

Equally I feel sorry for those who blame the Remain leaders for doing too little. I agree they did not do a very good job, but by blaming them you do not have the right to absolve yourself of the way you voted.  Every election the Far Right or the Far Left makes a very good emotional argument on why they are the best people to be voted in, but do you vote for them everytime? Perhaps no, because you take your time to understand what the others are offering - even if they make a weaker argument.  Sorry, any adult blaming others for why you voted Leave is like blaming your goalkeeper & team for not stopping you from scoring an own goal..
		
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In my post, which you quoted, I blamed both sides for a poor performance. I don't blame anyone for how I cast my vote(to Remain) as I researched the hell out of the subject. I dislike the EU even more now than I did before the start of the referendum campaign but my preference was in but with a cut back on the federalism.



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I just wish I could hear more Leavers articulating thought-through reasoning so that I know that they actually did know what they were voting for.  

Because, as you say, my perception that Leaving will be so wrong, may be just that - a perception based upon my own 'prejudices'.  There may be solid bases on the benefits of Leaving that more than balance out the downside.  But most of the time I just don't hear that.  And I didn't hear any coming from the Hartlepool audience last night.  All I heard was stuff that reinforced my own 'prejudices'.
		
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Going to Hartlepool is very poor by the BBC. I know it very well. Getting a balanced audience from there is nigh on impossible. I'm sure, as many know, going to other very poor towns will give a warped view.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Going to Hartlepool is very poor by the BBC. I know it very well. Getting a balanced audience from there is nigh on impossible. I'm sure, as many know, going to other very poor towns will give a warped view.
		
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Problem is that there are a lot of poor towns and so a lot of folks thinking like those in the H/Pool audience last night.  And where there may be misconceptions about what Brexit will offer, it is going to be the folks of these poor towns who will be seeking a change and an improvement to their life.  I hope Brexit delivers what they voted for - but I am not sure from what I heard from H/Pool that it will.


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Problem is there are a lot of poor towns.
		
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And getting poorer. The food bank I do some charity work for is seeing unprecedented demands, and for a wider scope of service, e.g. electricity and gas cards.

The Hartlepool's of the world need a voice but is it balanced journalism to choose such a poor place...?


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Problem is that there are a lot of poor towns and so a lot of folks thinking like those in the H/Pool audience last night.  And where there may be misconceptions about what Brexit will offer, it is going to be the folks of these poor towns who will be seeking a change and an improvement to their life.  I hope Brexit delivers what they voted for - but I am not sure from what I heard from H/Pool that it will.
		
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Being Devil's Advocate, I know its been said before, and there's probably some middle ground to the reality, but there will be some money available that was part of the contributions that the UK can now decide where to spend rather than having to conform to EU laws on not unfairly subsidising particular areas and industries.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 21, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			And getting poorer. The food bank I do some charity work for is seeing unprecedented demands, and for a wider scope of service, e.g. electricity and gas cards.

The Hartlepool's of the world need a voice but is it balanced journalism to choose such a poor place...?
		
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Isn't part of the supposed problem with politics now that such people don't have a voice or aren't listened to? Should the BBC only report the views of articulate middle classed people? Let's hear what they have to say, in all its horror.


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Isn't part of the supposed problem with politics now that such people don't have a voice or aren't listened to? Should the BBC only report the views of articulate middle classed people? Let's hear what they have to say, in all its horror.
		
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Heard, absolutely!

Being heard in an unbalanced forum, no it shows them up. Look at others view on here of Hartlepool.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 21, 2016)

The new Ken Loach film [I, Daniel ?] is supposed to be a tough watch.
The two male film critics who saw it both admitted being very tearful.

I don't suppose IDS, Maggie May, Farage, The Three Breakfasteers etc will bother to view.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 21, 2016)

I suspect apart from the film critics and a hardy few not many people will go to see I, Daniel. A good BBC2 film, not for a fun night out spending Â£10 to see it. Easy to knock the system but it does need updating, too many abuses. The problem is that the system has become so huge that good people get caught up in the blunt changes. The staus quo can not remain however, the country can't afford it and many tax payers do not want it stay as it is.


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## vkurup (Oct 21, 2016)

Hobbit said:



*In my post, which you quoted, I blamed both sides for a poor performance*. I don't blame anyone for how I cast my vote(to Remain) as I researched the hell out of the subject. I dislike the EU even more now than I did before the start of the referendum campaign but my preference was in but with a cut back on the federalism.

Going to Hartlepool is very poor by the BBC. I know it very well. Getting a balanced audience from there is nigh on impossible. I'm sure, as many know, going to other very poor towns will give a warped view.
		
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Hobbit... apologies for that.. It was not picking on you and I should have mentioned that my comment about adults complaining about 'Remainers not doing enough' was not directed at you but to a wider population that has taken that stance.  I was only using your post as a reference point.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 21, 2016)

Any form of media is now unbalanced, the Press/BBC seem to think that they can print say any old tosh/lies and get away with it.

The Sun using a picture of an interpreter as a 'child' is just one of many.
A recent anti Scottish Independence Spectator piece has been stripped down to contain around 40 lies within 1800 words.


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## delc (Oct 21, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Isn't part of the supposed problem with politics now that such people don't have a voice or aren't listened to? Should the BBC only report the views of articulate middle classed people? Let's hear what they have to say, in all its horror.
		
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On the basis of what I saw on Question Time from Hartlepool yesterday evening, Yes!  Their seemed to be some thuggish right wing UKIP members in the audience that the Nazi Party would have been proud of!  I was particularly appalled when they booed that Polish lady who complained about increasing discrimination against her country folk. It wasn't even as if she was a recent immigrant, having lived here for twenty years and being married to an Englishman. Do the Leavers really think she should be deported and split up her family?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2016)

delc said:



			On the basis of what I saw on Question Time from Hartlepool yesterday evening, Yes!  Their seemed to be some thuggish right wing UKIP members in the audience that the Nazi Party would have been proud of!  I was particularly appalled when they booed that Polish lady who complained about increasing discrimination against her country folk. It wasn't even as if she was a recent immigrant, having lived here for twenty years and being married to an Englishman. *Do the Leavers really think she should be deported and split up her family?* 

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This is going to be part of the problem.  I suspect that the vast majority of those who voted _Leave _do not expect existing migrants to be 'deported' (well I hope that that is the case).  But I suspect also that many of those who voted _Leave _will have voted that way because of the *current *migrant population - so 'foreigners' in front of them in the GP surgery queue; the housing queue; the job queue; the school places queue etc.  

Problem is that if you are not going to deport any of the current immigrant population then none of that will change.  And I fear that in that population of _Leave _voters we will have anger and resentment building - and going forward who will be able to differentiate between a current migrant and a new immigrant.  Nobody - that's who.  

And so if that Polish woman in Hartlepool is in front of such a _Leave_ voter in the queue at the GP - how will she be viewed?  I think her 'not wanted' experience will become ever more common to her.


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## delc (Oct 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is going to be part of the problem.  I suspect that the vast majority of those who voted _Leave _do not expect existing migrants to be 'deported' (well I hope that that is the case).  But I suspect also that many of those who voted _Leave _will have voted that way because of the *current *migrant population - so 'foreigners' in front of them in the GP surgery queue; the housing queue; the job queue; the school places queue etc.  

Problem is that if you are not going to deport any of the current immigrant population then none of that will change.  And I fear that in that population of _Leave _voters we will have anger and resentment building - and going forward who will be able to differentiate between a current migrant and a new immigrant.  Nobody - that's who.  

And so if that Polish woman in Hartlepool is in front of such a _Leave_ voter in the queue at the GP - how will she be viewed?  I think her 'not wanted' experience will become ever more common to her.
		
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The vast majority of immigrants in the UK are not from the EU. They are refugees from Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and various other Middle-Eastern and African countries destabilised by Western interventions. The Blair/Brown New Labour Government were particularly keen on taking them in the hope that they would vote for them and keep them in power for ever. Fortunately this tactic didn't work! It is the children of these immigrants that are now filling our schools, and in a very few cases turning into terrorists. We could have controlled this immigration, but failed to do so. I rather doubt that too many EU citizens will want to come to our impoverished little island anyway now, particularly now the Pound has become pretty worthless!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2016)

delc said:



			The vast majority of immigrants in the UK are not from the EU. They are refugees from Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and various other Middle-Eastern and African countries destabilised by Western interventions. The Blair/Brown New Labour Government were particularly keen on taking them in the hope that they would vote for them and keep them in power for ever. Fortunately this tactic didn't work! It is the children of these immigrants that are now filling our schools, and in a very few cases turning into terrorists. We could have controlled this immigration, but failed to do so. I rather doubt that too many EU citizens will want to come to our impoverished little island anyway now, particularly now the Pound has become pretty worthless!
		
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That may well be the case - but it isn't going to mollify the _Leave_ voter who following Brexit expects to get nearer the front of the queue and not have so many foreigners in front of them.  But unless a lot of these foreigners are ask politely to leave - then the make-up of the queue will not change.


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## IanM (Oct 21, 2016)

Correct.  Blair opened the doors.  He had his reasons I suppose.  Immigration is far less of an issue than sovereignty and ridding ourselves from the unelected commissioners and their flunkies 

BBC News at 6 was interesting...........going on about how exposed we are at the EU Summit and how tough it will be.  Completely slanted report as ever.

..I guess the French and Germans don't need us to buy their stuff!  The Eastern Europeans are panicking about the subsidies they were promised for joining.

Trade is still trade.... my organisation is making big strides outside EU now it can.... not reported on BBC though


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## delc (Oct 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That may well be the case - but it isn't going to mollify the _Leave_ voter who following Brexit expects to get nearer the front of the queue and not have so many foreigners in front of them.  But unless a lot of these foreigners are ask politely to leave - then the make-up of the queue will not change.
		
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Don't forget there are 2.5 million Brits living in other EU countries who are also 'foreigners' to the local populations!  it's a two way thing.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2016)

delc said:



			On the basis of what I saw on Question Time from Hartlepool yesterday evening, Yes!  Their seemed to be some thuggish right wing UKIP members in the audience that the Nazi Party would have been proud of!  I was particularly appalled when they booed that Polish lady who complained about increasing discrimination against her country folk. It wasn't even as if she was a recent immigrant, having lived here for twenty years and being married to an Englishman. Do the Leavers really think she should be deported and split up her family?  

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Again another bout of gross exaggeration from you and others on here.   The Polish Woman on QT made some outlandish comments and the people booing her were disagreeing that 52% of voters wanted her to leave the UK that was a stupid comment from her.  She said *â€œI feel Iâ€™m no longer wanted by 52 per cent of the voters.â€    *She then said *â€œFifty-two per cent of the voters voted against immigration. Polish is the second most popular language in this country.â€   *If you think that was a reasonable comment from her and consider her comments as discrimination against her then you are guilty of what you accuse others of.


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## delc (Oct 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Again another bout of gross exaggeration from you and others on here.   The Polish Woman on QT made some outlandish comments and the people booing her were disagreeing that 52% of voters wanted her to leave the UK that was a stupid comment from her.  She said *â€œI feel Iâ€™m no longer wanted by 52 per cent of the voters.â€    *She then said *â€œFifty-two per cent of the voters voted against immigration. Polish is the second most popular language in this country.â€   *If you think that was a reasonable comment from her and consider her comments as discrimination against her then you are guilty of what you accuse others of.
		
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As far as I can remember 52% of those who voted in the Referendum did actually vote leave, often on an anti-immigrant ticket, so what is your point? Polish and other minority communities are reporting more hate crime since the Brexit vote, or do you wish to deny that as well?


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## vkurup (Oct 21, 2016)

Did not watch QT... but a question on this Polish lady. If she has a kid while she is in the UK
a) with a Polish husband 
b) with a British national

Does the child in a, b or both classify as a British and therefore not a 'foreigner' who should not be in the various queues?


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## delc (Oct 21, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Did not watch QT... but a question on this Polish lady. If she has a kid while she is in the UK
a) with a Polish husband 
b) with a British national

Does the child in a, b or both classify as a British and therefore not a 'foreigner' who should not be in the various queues?
		
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Sounds like we might be going to go down the route of Nazi Germany. Blame and then victimise foreigners!  

P.S. The Poles were our Allies in WW2.


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2016)

delc said:



			Sounds like we might be going to go down the route of Nazi Germany. Blame and then victimise foreigners!  

P.S. The Poles were our Allies in WW2.
		
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And its that sort of comment that is equally unhelpful. The judicial system in the U.K., including the Police, prosecute racist behaviour, unlike Nazi Germany where it was state sponsored.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2016)

delc said:



			As far as I can remember 52% of those who voted in the Referendum did actually vote leave, often on an anti-immigrant ticket, so what is your point? Polish and other minority communities are reporting more hate crime since the Brexit vote, or do you wish to deny that as well?  

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What a completely stupid statement.  You are as guilty as the people you accuse.   52% of voters in the referendum voted on an anti-immigrant policy! what an outrageous statement.   You seem incapable of differentiating between people who want to control immigration and anti-immigrant.  Idiot!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Did not watch QT... but a question on this Polish lady. If she has a kid while she is in the UK
a) with a Polish husband 
b) with a British national

Does the child in a, b or both classify as a British and therefore not a 'foreigner' who should not be in the various queues?
		
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What Queues?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2016)

delc said:



			Sounds like we might be going to go down the route of Nazi Germany. Blame and then victimise foreigners!  

P.S. The Poles were our Allies in WW2.
		
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Trolling trouble maker.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 21, 2016)

IanM said:



			Correct.  Blair opened the doors.  He had his reasons I suppose.  Immigration is far less of an issue than sovereignty and *ridding ourselves from the unelected commissioners *and their flunkies 

BBC News at 6 was interesting...........*going on about how exposed we are at the EU Summit and how tough it will be.  Completely slanted report as ever.*

..I guess the French and Germans don't need us to buy their stuff!  The Eastern Europeans are panicking about the subsidies they were promised for joining.

Trade is still trade.... my organisation is making big strides outside EU now it can.... not reported on BBC though
		
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Fair point, much better to have the House Of Lords doing that job.... 

And boo BBC for pointing out that we are exposed at the EU summit as we have decided to leave them and how tough it will be.  Where as everyone knows that really we will be embraced like long lost bosom buddies by the rest of the EU after what has happened.  And with our well thought out plans for Brexit it will be a piece of cake, no way will it be tough cause we are Great Britain and we have regained our sovereignty!!! Up your Jacques Delors!


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*I just wish I could hear more Leavers articulating thought-through reasoning so that I know that they actually did know what they were voting for.  
*
Because, as you say, my perception that Leaving will be so wrong, may be just that - a perception based upon my own 'prejudices'.  There may be solid bases on the benefits of Leaving that more than balance out the downside.  But most of the time I just don't hear that.  And I didn't hear any coming from the Hartlepool audience last night.  All I heard was stuff that reinforced my own 'prejudices'.
		
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Having been told by yourself and others on here how stupid/ignorant/racist they are for voting leave and having see how intransigent you are in your views, they've probably decided it's not worth trying to explain as it won't make a blind bit of difference to your opinion.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Trolling trouble maker.
		
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But a 42% increase in hate crime in England and Wales since Brexit is difficult to explain away.
Care to try this time instead of using your favoured deflection mode.


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Any form of media is now unbalanced, the Press/BBC seem to think that they can print say any old tosh/lies and get away with it.

The Sun using a picture of an interpreter as a 'child' is just one of many.
A recent anti Scottish Independence Spectator piece has been stripped down to contain around 40 lies within 1800 words.
		
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Does this mean you will heed your own perception and stop posting links from the obviously biased Wings Over Scotland? Or will the soft trolling continue...?


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 21, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			But a 42% increase in hate crime in England and Wales since Brexit is difficult to explain away.
Care to try this time instead of using your favoured deflection mode.
		
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It's not actually a 42% rise in hate crime though is it. Another use of statistics to prove the point you want to make rather than the actual correct use of the statistic. It's a 42% increase in REPORTED hate crime since the referendum. Not sure if you are aware but Brexit hasn't happened yet. With all the additional publicity people are now far more likely to report these events rather than just walk away.

I'm not excusing the behaviour of the imbeciles committing these offences and its a shame that the country had to vote to leave the EU for people to start reporting them. But for you to try and claim that hate crime has gone up by 42% is laughable.


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## delc (Oct 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			What a completely stupid statement.  You are as guilty as the people you accuse.   52% of voters in the referendum voted on an anti-immigrant policy! what an outrageous statement.   You seem incapable of differentiating between people who want to control immigration and anti-immigrant.  Idiot!
		
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It's the same thing as far as I am concerned!  Our country is admittedly getting a bit overcrowded, particularly in the South-East, but maybe a better Regional policy would solve this. Certainly resources have not kept up with increasing demand down here and often foreign labour is required to plug the gaps. We joined an organisation of friendly countries where free trade and free movement of people are fundamental and that is no bad thing. The Brexiter's only argument seems to be that they won the vote and we are leaving the EU come what may, however much damage that may do to our Economy, Security, our standing in the World and so on.  I suspect that if we held another referendum now the Remain side would win. That is probably why they don't want any Parliamentary scrutiny of the Brexit process.


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## Dellboy (Oct 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I had heard discussion of that - and my understanding of why they think this is possible is because there is nothing in Art50 to say that triggering it is a_ fait accomplis _ - and that the triggering can't be withdrawn.  Because no-one ever thought that a country would ever trigger it.
		
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The EU have already stated that under there rules and law, once it has been triggered it can not be withdrawn, unless all of the remaining 27 counties are in full agreement of which ( if I remember rightly on Radio 4 ) 6 countries have said no.


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2016)

delc said:



			It's the same thing as far as I am concerned!  Our country is admittedly getting a bit overcrowded, particularly in the South-East, but maybe a better Regional policy would solve this. Certainly resources have not kept up with increasing demand down here and often foreign labour is required to plug the gaps. We joined an organisation of friendly countries where free trade and free movement of people are fundamental and that is no bad thing. The Brexiter's only argument seems to be that they won the vote and we are leaving the EU come what may, however much damage that may do to our Economy, Security, our standing in the World and so on.  I suspect that if we held another referendum now the Remain side would win. That is probably why they don't want any Parliamentary scrutiny of the Brexit process.
		
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Please see post #635, and if I responded to this one I'd get a ban. You really are a weazely little man


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## delc (Oct 21, 2016)

Dellboy said:



			The EU have already stated that under there rules and law, once it has been triggered it can not be withdrawn, unless all of the remaining 27 counties are in full agreement of which ( if I remember rightly on Radio 4 ) 6 countries have said no.
		
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Suppose we leave the EU and the UK Economy goes completely down the tubes as a result. We could re-apply for membership, but we probably wouldn't then meet the financial requirements, and any of the remaining 27 EU Countries could veto our application (They still have some Sovereignty).  Leaving the EU is a huge risk, and I want the Brexit supporters to appreciate this.


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## delc (Oct 21, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Please see post #635, and if I responded to this one I'd get a ban. You really are a weazely little man
		
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Typical Brexiter. You can only come up with insults rather than coherent arguments!


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2016)

delc said:



			Typical Brexiter. You can only come up with insults rather than coherent arguments!
		
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Apart from I voted Remain, and would vote Remain again. Please try harder


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## delc (Oct 21, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Apart from I voted Remain, and would vote Remain again. Please try harder
		
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In that case I will let you off!  But why were you making the arguments that you where?


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 21, 2016)

Gentlemen

Perlease !!!


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## Hobbit (Oct 21, 2016)

delc said:



			In that case I will let you off!  But why were you making the arguments that you where?  

Click to expand...

Because I see two cats either side of a fence spitting at each other. Where's the engagement?

And sorry Delc, but I just saw a Remain version of the empty headed Brexiteer you spoke of. There's validity in everyone's argument, from their perspective, but to a large extent no one is willing to give either side any respect.


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## Dellboy (Oct 21, 2016)

delc said:



			Suppose we leave the EU and the UK Economy goes completely down the tubes as a result. We could re-apply for membership, but we probably wouldn't then meet the financial requirements, and any of the remaining 27 EU Countries could veto our application (They still have some Sovereignty).  Leaving the EU is a huge risk, and I want the Brexit supporters to appreciate this.
		
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I think the EU will collapse before too long, so the sooner we leave the better, should invoke 50 now and be done with it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2016)

IanM said:



			Correct.  Blair opened the doors.  He had his reasons I suppose.  Immigration is far less of an issue than sovereignty and ridding ourselves from the unelected commissioners and their flunkies 

*BBC News at 6 was interesting...........going on about how exposed we are at the EU Summit and how tough it will be.  Completely slanted report as ever.
*
..I guess the French and Germans don't need us to buy their stuff!  The Eastern Europeans are panicking about the subsidies they were promised for joining.

Trade is still trade.... my organisation is making big strides outside EU now it can.... not reported on BBC though
		
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Did you watch and listen yesterday as all the EU leaders arrived and as they did they spoke about Brexit?  Given what they said I think the BBC got it bang on.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			What Queues?
		
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The queues that so many who voted to Leave complain about when they are behind immigrants.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The queues that so many who voted to Leave complain about when they are behind immigrants.
		
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'So Many', I considered you more intelligent than making such a remark.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Again another bout of gross exaggeration from you and others on here.   The Polish Woman on QT made some outlandish comments and the people booing her were disagreeing that 52% of voters wanted her to leave the UK that was a stupid comment from her.  She said *â€œI feel Iâ€™m no longer wanted by 52 per cent of the voters.â€    *She then said *â€œFifty-two per cent of the voters voted against immigration. Polish is the second most popular language in this country.â€   *If you think that was a reasonable comment from her and consider her comments as discrimination against her then you are guilty of what you accuse others of.
		
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She was quite clear that she felt that 52% of those who voted did not want her in the UK.  That may not be true - though I suspect that the EVERY Leave voter had immigration control as one of the factors they based their vote.  It may not have been everyone's #1 - but I bet it was there.  Besides - who are you or any of us to question how she says she feels.  Did the many who boo'd her not have immigration control as a factor for their vote.  Of course they did - they just didn't like hearing the impact on a real person of their view.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 21, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			'So Many', I considered you more intelligent than making such a remark.
		
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What do you expect me to say.  100%?  Because that is perhaps the uncomfortable truth.   I would suggest that the vast majority of Leave voters feel resentful of immigrants or the number of immigrants to one degree or another, that is why they want 'to regain control' and 'control immigration'.  You are being completely disingenuous to pretend that that is not the case - I have no idea why you are trying.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			She was quite clear that she felt that 52% of those who voted did not want her in the UK.  That may not be true - though I suspect that the EVERY Leave voter had immigration control as one of the factors they based their vote.  It may not have been everyone's #1 - but I bet it was there.  Besides - who are you or any of us to question how she says she feels.  Did the many who boo'd her not have immigration control as a factor for their vote.  Of course they did - they just didn't like hearing the impact on a real person of their view.
		
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Immigration control doesn't and never did mean throwing people out of the country.  You know that as well as I and I am surprised that someone with your morals would stoop to suggest otherwise.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 21, 2016)

delc said:



*Suppose we leave the EU and the UK Economy goes completely down the tubes as a result. We could re-apply for membership, but we probably wouldn't then meet the financial requirements,* and any of the remaining 27 EU Countries could veto our application (They still have some Sovereignty).  Leaving the EU is a huge risk, and I want the Brexit supporters to appreciate this.
		
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Precisely how far down the tubes would the British economy have to go before it got worse than the Greek economy, which apparently does qualify for membership?   You really do post some utter tosh.


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## vkurup (Oct 22, 2016)

delc said:



			Suppose we leave the EU and the UK Economy goes completely down the tubes as a result. We could re-apply for membership, but we probably wouldn't then meet the financial requirements, and any of the remaining 27 EU Countries could veto our application (They still have some Sovereignty).  Leaving the EU is a huge risk, and I want the Brexit supporters to appreciate this.
		
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In the opposite scenario... suppose we thrive (or even have flat line growth) and EU collapses, then who would be laughing/smiling/feeling smug?? There is plenty of stress in the EU -> Italian Banks, Deutsche Bank, French and German election, Southern EU economies, unemployment, far right issues..


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## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What do you expect me to say.  100%?  Because that is perhaps the uncomfortable truth.   I would suggest that the vast majority of Leave voters feel resentful of immigrants or the number of immigrants to one degree or another, that is why they want 'to regain control' and 'control immigration'.  You are being completely disingenuous to pretend that that is not the case - I have no idea why you are trying.
		
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How exactly are you supposed to know the car in front has an immigrant driving it if it doesn't have a foreign number plate.

Actually I would not have expected you to make the comment at all as it is a big generalisation and an extreme view.   Wanting to control immigration is not 'resenting immigrants' and if you cant understand that then you are the one being disingenuous!


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## delc (Oct 22, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Immigration control doesn't and never did mean throwing people out of the country.  You know that as well as I and I am surprised that someone with your morals would stoop to suggest otherwise.
		
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Our Parliament (or at least the Conservative majority in it) have just voted out a bill to guarantee the rights of existing EU citizens who are resident in the UK.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2016)

delc said:



			Our Parliament (or at least the Conservative majority in it) have just voted out a bill to guarantee the rights of existing EU citizens who are resident in the UK. 

Click to expand...

And that means they are throwing them all out does it?


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 22, 2016)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...itain-in-late-night-poker-game-20161021115778


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 22, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...itain-in-late-night-poker-game-20161021115778

Click to expand...

Clearly not going well for the PM in the Summit.
A bit of humility seems to be absent.

In my little world you don't deliberately pick a fight with someone you hope to do a mutually agreeable deal with.


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## Hobbit (Oct 22, 2016)

delc said:



			Our Parliament (or at least the Conservative majority in it) have just voted out a bill to guarantee the rights of existing EU citizens who are resident in the UK. 

Click to expand...

Seems fair. Now the negotiating teams from both sides can decide how they want this to play out. If the vote had gone the other way the EU citizens living here would have had the guarantee before anything had been agreed for UK citizens living in the EU.


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## Hobbit (Oct 22, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Clearly not going well for the PM in the Summit.
A bit of humility seems to be absent.

In my little world you don't deliberately pick a fight with someone you hope to do a mutually agreeable deal with.
		
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Or you can tell them to stop walking all over us. There's been two meetings of the EU leaders in the last 4 months about non-Brexit issues that the UK hasn't been invited to. We're still members of the EU with a vested interest in what is passed before we leave. The EU are behaving as though we've already left. Sorry, but if anyone is at fault its the EU.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 22, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Or you can tell them to stop walking all over us. There's been two meetings of the EU leaders in the last 4 months about non-Brexit issues that the UK hasn't been invited to. We're still members of the EU with a vested interest in what is passed before we leave. The EU are behaving as though we've already left. Sorry, but if anyone is at fault its the EU.
		
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If, as some are suggesting, we end up not leaving, how valid will any decisions made in those meetings be if an existing member state was actively excluded.

Anyone else seeing an attitude in that which suggests we might be better off out of it?  Certainly makes a mockery of the suggestion here that we are better off having a seat at the table if we aren't actually invited to dinner.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Or you can tell them to stop walking all over us. There's been two meetings of the EU leaders in the last 4 months about non-Brexit issues that the UK hasn't been invited to. We're still members of the EU with a vested interest in what is passed before we leave. The EU are behaving as though we've already left. Sorry, but if anyone is at fault its the EU.
		
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Good points.
also, we are still paying our Eu membership fees and could probably put a claim to the Ecg that we wish to be compensated for being excluded from council.


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## delc (Oct 22, 2016)

delc said:



			It's the same thing as far as I am concerned!  Our country is admittedly getting a bit overcrowded, particularly in the South-East, but maybe a better Regional policy would solve this. Certainly resources have not kept up with increasing demand down here and often foreign labour is required to plug the gaps. We joined an organisation of friendly countries where free trade and free movement of people are fundamental and that is no bad thing. The Brexiter's only argument seems to be that they won the vote and we are leaving the EU come what may, however much damage that may do to our Economy, Security, our standing in the World and so on.  I suspect that if we held another referendum now the Remain side would win. That is probably why they don't want any Parliamentary scrutiny of the Brexit process.
		
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Blue in Munich said:



			Precisely how far down the tubes would the British economy have to go before it got worse than the Greek economy, which apparently does qualify for membership?   You really do post some utter tosh. 

Click to expand...

Greece probably shouldn't have been allowed to join the EU until it sorted out its finances IMHO.


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## Hobbit (Oct 22, 2016)

delc said:



			Greece probably shouldn't have been allowed to join the EU until it sorted out its finances IMHO.
		
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All 10 that joined in May 2004 shouldn't have been let in. I wonder how many countries in the EU would accept them now? And if they hadn't been let in there wouldn't have been calls for the referendum.


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## harpo_72 (Oct 22, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Or you can tell them to stop walking all over us. There's been two meetings of the EU leaders in the last 4 months about non-Brexit issues that the UK hasn't been invited to. We're still members of the EU with a vested interest in what is passed before we leave. The EU are behaving as though we've already left. Sorry, but if anyone is at fault its the EU.
		
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If the meetings were about present state and 2 years going forward, your completely right, the EU are out of order. 
However if it was a mop up session about how they are going to go forward with the negotiations then it's a closed doors meeting. They could be looking at their strategy. There are single members who have something we want and we have something they want ... others are not in such a position, meaning internally there are some impacts that need considering.


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## Foxholer (Oct 22, 2016)

delc said:



			Greece probably shouldn't have been allowed to join the EU until it sorted out its finances IMHO.
		
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Hobbit said:



			All 10 that joined in May 2004 shouldn't have been let in. I wonder how many countries in the EU would accept them now? And if they hadn't been let in there wouldn't have been calls for the referendum.
		
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Er....Greece joined in 1981!!!

Del. Can you actually remember back that far?

And the UK's economy wasn't in a particularly great shape when it joined - in 1974. That - the likely improvement in/to the economy - was actually part of the justification for joining!


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## Pants (Oct 22, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			......... about how they are going to go forward with the negotiations then it's a closed doors meeting. They could be looking at their strategy.
		
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SiLH will be along in a moment demanding that we tell him (her???) every detail of their plans ...... :mmm:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 23, 2016)

Pants said:



			SiLH will be along in a moment demanding that we tell him (her???) every detail of their plans ...... :mmm:
		
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Given the fuss and noise the SNP are making over Brexit would it not be reasonable and sensible for the government to give a target date for having a draft negotiation stance ready for review by Sturgeon and Russell.  That would at least shut the SNP up - something that many south of the border want to see happen.


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## chrisd (Oct 23, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Given the fuss and noise the SNP are making over Brexit would it not be reasonable and sensible for the government to give a target date for having a draft negotiation stance ready for review by Sturgeon and Russell.  That would at least shut the SNP up - something that many south of the border want to see happen.
		
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NOTHING would shut Sturgeon up !


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 23, 2016)

chrisd said:



			NOTHING would shut Sturgeon up !
		
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I know, isn't she marvelous.

Taking 'Nippie Sweetie' to a whole new level.


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## ColchesterFC (Oct 23, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I know, isn't she marvelous.

Taking 'Nippie Sweetie' to a whole new level.
		
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Well that's certainly one description of her. If I typed my preferred description if the profanity filter didn't get me then the mods certainly would.

I heard on the radio this morning that the PM is hosting a meeting tomorrow with the leaders of the devolved parliaments to discuss Brexit strategy. Hopefully that will shut up the SNP and some posters on here who claim that they aren't being involved in Brexit.


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## delc (Oct 23, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Well that's certainly one description of her. If I typed my preferred description if the profanity filter didn't get me then the mods certainly would.

I heard on the radio this morning that the PM is hosting a meeting tomorrow with the leaders of the devolved parliaments to discuss Brexit strategy. Hopefully that will shut up the SNP and some posters on here who claim that they aren't being involved in Brexit.
		
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As she (Nicola Sturgeon) is opposed to Brexit, she is now my heroine! :thup:


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 23, 2016)

delc said:



			As she is opposed to Brexit, she is now my heroine! :thup:
		
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She is not opposed to Brexit.

She is opposed to Scexit.

Basically and understandably she does not give a stuff what happens to you.


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## delc (Oct 23, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			She is not opposed to Brexit.

She is opposed to Scexit.

Basically and understandably she does not give a stuff what happens to you.
		
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Don't the two go together?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 23, 2016)

delc said:



			Don't the two go together?
		
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Yes, you and her have certain similar attributes


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## delc (Oct 23, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, you and her have certain similar attributes 

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I'm rather hoping she rides down Bodicea style to rescue us all from Mrs May and the three Brexiteers!


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 23, 2016)

delc said:



			I'm rather hoping she rides down Bodicea style to rescue us all from Mrs May and the three Brexiteers! 

Click to expand...

Change the name of the SNP to The Progressive Party and go UK wide might be her next move.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 23, 2016)

delc said:



			Don't the two go together?
		
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At the moment yes but she isn't bothered about that, after all what is the sole _raison d'etre _of her party.

As for being rescued by her ; No thanks!!

BTW can I ask when was your Damascene moment. Your sudden concern for immigrants does seem rather at odds with much that you posted in the past.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 23, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Change the name of the SNP to The Progressive Party and go UK wide might be her next move.
		
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Progression towards bankruptcy.


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## delc (Oct 23, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			At the moment yes but she isn't bothered about that, after all what is the sole _raison d'etre _of her party.

As for being rescued by her ; No thanks!!

BTW can I ask when was your Damascene moment. Your sudden concern for immigrants does seem rather at odds with much that you posted in the past.
		
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I live on the outskirts of London and we are bursting at the seams with them, mostly those let in by the Blair/Brown Government, and now their children. Not much to do with the EU btw. My main problem is that our infrastructure, roads, schools, hospitals, etc, have not been increased pro-rata!


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## Hobbit (Oct 23, 2016)

delc said:



			I live on the outskirts of London and we are bursting at the seams with them, mostly those let in by the Blair/Brown Government, and now their children. Not much to do with the EU btw. My main problem is that our infrastructure, roads, schools, hospitals, etc, have not been increased pro-rata!
		
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So, you're a rabid remainer but have a huge issue with immigration and the free movement of people. 

I guess you've never won anything major on the pools as you seem to have a problem with where you put your 'X.'


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## delc (Oct 23, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			So, you're a rabid remainer but have a huge issue with immigration and the free movement of people. 

I guess you've never won anything major on the pools as you seem to have a problem with where you put your 'X.'
		
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1) I have no issues with immigrants on a personal level. If they are reasonable and polite to me, I will be reasonable and polite to them. My second wife was an immigrant from Southern Ireland. About as many Brits emigrate to other EU countries as EU citizens come to us, so they are not a problem. The problem is that we haven't controlled immigration from outside the EU!

2) I have always been a supporter of the EU.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 23, 2016)

delc said:



			1) I have no issues with immigrants on a personal level. If they are reasonable and polite to me, I will be reasonable and polite to them. My second wife was an immigrant from Southern Ireland. About as many Brits emigrate to other EU countries as EU citizens come to us, so they are not a problem. The problem is that we haven't controlled immigration from outside the EU!

2) I have always been a supporter of the EU.
		
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Southern Irish are not quite the same, they have always had a right to live in the UK without visa.


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## Hobbit (Oct 23, 2016)

delc said:



			1) I have no issues with immigrants on a personal level. If they are reasonable and polite to me, I will be reasonable and polite to them. My second wife was an immigrant from Southern Ireland. About as many Brits emigrate to other EU countries as EU citizens come to us, so they are not a problem. The problem is that we haven't controlled immigration from outside the EU!

2) I have always been a supporter of the EU.
		
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So what is the difference between an unskilled worker from, say, Pakistan and one from Poland? 

Your post was about the lack of infrastructure to support those that are already here, but you're now saying you're willing to accept more providing they are from within the EU, where there's unlimited migration. I don't understand your logic.


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## delc (Oct 23, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			So what is the difference between an unskilled worker from, say, Pakistan and one from Poland? 

Your post was about the lack of infrastructure to support those that are already here, but you're now saying you're willing to accept more providing they are from within the EU, where there's unlimited migration. I don't understand your logic.
		
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About as many Brits move to other European countries as EU folk come here, so the effect is pretty neutral. The pressure on immigration is coming from Middle-Eastern countries such as Syria, whose people are not EU citizens.


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## Hobbit (Oct 23, 2016)

delc said:



			About as many Brits move to other European countries as EU folk come here, so the effect is pretty neutral. The pressure on immigration is coming from Middle-Eastern countries such as Syria, whose people are not EU citizens.
		
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270,000 EU citizens came to the UK last year, and 90,000 Brits emigrated. That's not neutral. Non-EU Immigration was 188,000...

C'mon Delc, at least be accurate rather than post rubbish.


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## Foxholer (Oct 23, 2016)

delc said:



*About as many Brits move to other European countries as EU folk come here, so the effect is pretty neutral.* The pressure on immigration is coming from Middle-Eastern countries such as Syria, whose people are not EU citizens.
		
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This statement is not supported by the statistics! https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...statisticsquarterlyreport/may2016/previous/v1

Most of the VISIBLE issues with immigration is from the plight from refugees - some of whom are simply 'economic' ones! The desperation of some of these is what is making the headlines in the media! The fact that they have (been) passed through at least 1 other EU country is an issue that should not be ignored!


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## delc (Oct 23, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			This statement is not supported by the statistics! https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...statisticsquarterlyreport/may2016/previous/v1

Most of the VISIBLE issues with immigration is from the plight from refugees - some of whom are simply 'economic' ones! The desperation of some of these is what is making the headlines in the media! The fact that they have (been) passed through at least 1 other EU country is an issue that should not be ignored!
		
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That still gives them no automatic right of entry to the UK, as they are not EU passport holders, and we are not in the Schengen area, so still have border controls. That dreadful UKIP poster during the referendum campaign gave the impression that they could just walk across Europe straight into the U.K.!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2016)

ColchesterFC said:



			Well that's certainly one description of her. If I typed my preferred description if the profanity filter didn't get me then the mods certainly would.

I heard on the radio this morning that the PM is hosting a meeting tomorrow with the leaders of the devolved parliaments to discuss Brexit strategy. *Hopefully that will shut up the SNP and some posters on here who claim that they aren't being involved in Brexit.*

Click to expand...

Yes it absolutely does help - and also I hear that the leaders of the devolved governments will be involved in two round table forums with David Davies before Christmas.  Hopefully to be able to agree some basic foundations for the post Art50 negotiations that all can sign up to - though I have my doubts they'll manage that if things go the way that May has been indicating.

This is all I have been asking for.  It also means that there *is *an Art50 prep plan and that that will include a milestone to have a baseline negotiation position - one that hopefully all have signed up to.  However we also need to know at what point further input from the devolved governments will not be sought.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			However we also need to know at what point further input from the devolved governments will not be sought.
		
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No we don't.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			No we don't.
		
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Yes we do

You tell me why we should *not *know the cut-off date for input from the devolved governments - given that Scotland is an 'equal partner' in the union and when voting NO was to enable Scotland to remain in the EU.


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			No we don't.
		
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I agree! Though it's likely that some sort of notification, if not agreement, will happen during/following actual exit negotiation.
We don't need to know the intimate goings-on of the negotiations, just as we don't need to know the intimate goings-on of diplomatic discussions! If the government (or EU for that matter) happens to make announcements, then make sure you have a decent amount of salt available, as it's likely the announcement is 'strategic' rather than final agreements!


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## Old Skier (Oct 24, 2016)

The UK is in the EU not the individual countries of Scotland, N Ireland and Wales. In fact the majority of Welsh wanted out so I'm not sure allowing the federalist miniority to creat white noise while dealing with the negotiations is really that useful or helpful.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			I agree! Though it's likely that some sort of notification, if not agreement, will happen during/following actual exit negotiation.
We don't need to know the intimate goings-on of the negotiations, just as we don't need to know the intimate goings-on of diplomatic discussions! If the government (or EU for that matter) happens to make announcements, then make sure you have a decent amount of salt available, as it's likely the announcement is 'strategic' rather than final agreements!
		
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Blimey... What intimate details about the UK's negotiating stance and goings-on have we gleaned from knowing that Sturgeon et al are meeting with May today, and that they will be involved in a couple of forums with David Davis before the turn of the year.  None.  None at all.

And so what intimate details would be divulged if we were told that there is a cut-off date of (say) 28th Feb 2017 for input from the devolved governments?


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## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Blimey... What intimate details about the UK's negotiating stance and goings-on have we gleaned from knowing that Sturgeon et al are meeting with May today, and that they will be involved in a couple of forums with David Davis before the turn of the year.  None.  None at all.

And so what intimate details would be divulged if we were told that there is a cut-off date of (say) 28th Feb 2017 for input from the devolved governments?
		
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What difference would it make to you, me, or anybody if you knew? Absolutely diddly-squat. You seem to think that the Scottish MP's in Westminster can't represent Scotland enough? Why the need to focus so much on the devolved government. I don't remember that being part of the devolution, "input into UK wide decisions". I would almost argue that the devolved governments/assemblies *shouldn't* be involved in the negotiations, that's what the Westminster MP's are for. The Scottish/Welsh/NI devolved governments are overly focused on their own particular areas, and you could argue with Scotland, this includes being to the detriment of the rest of the UK.


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Blimey... What intimate details about the UK's negotiating stance and goings-on have we gleaned from knowing that Sturgeon et al are meeting with May today, and that they will be involved in a couple of forums with David Davis before the turn of the year.  None.  None at all.

And so what intimate details would be divulged if we were told that there is a cut-off date of (say) 28th Feb 2017 for input from the devolved governments?
		
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You've got it arse about face!

WE (at least most of us) don't need to know! And that's for several reasons! A) WE really have no influence over it! B) We trust/depend on the government getting the best deal possible! C) Depending on how/why they voted, some/many won't care on what deal is made! It's the leaving that counts!

If devolved governments are given a deadline for input (though what that 'input' would be I'm unsure), then they should accept that deadline! What the 'intimate details' that may/may not be divulged would be, I haven't a clue! 

Why can't you just accept that May is the ideal type of PM to actually run this - would have voted to Remain, but is determined to implement the Exit result with the best possible deal for UK! Her strategy so far - including the appointments she has made (and has not made!) to the Brexit department(s) seem to be pretty good to me! And I was a definite 'anti-May' when she was Home Secretary!


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## MegaSteve (Oct 24, 2016)

Out of interest are we also expecting the EU commissioners to keep us fully posted as to their intentions with regard the Brexit negotiations?

After all, we are still contributing and we played a part in electing the EU Parliament...


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Out of interest are we also expecting the EU commissioners to keep us fully posted as to their intentions with regard the Brexit negotiations?

After all, we are still contributing and we played a part in electing the EU Parliament...
		
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Oh, I'm sure that the (non-UK) ones will be giving their opinions!  But, as I posted earlier, much of that, like the opinions already expressed by 'the other side' will simply be posturing! And once the negotiations actually start, there'll be plenty more - even just for 'domestic consumption' - by both sides!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2016)

CheltenhamHacker said:



*What difference would it make to you, me, or anybody if you knew? *Absolutely diddly-squat. You seem to think that the Scottish MP's in Westminster can't represent Scotland enough? Why the need to focus so much on the devolved government. I don't remember that being part of the devolution, "input into UK wide decisions". I would almost argue that the devolved governments/assemblies *shouldn't* be involved in the negotiations, that's what the Westminster MP's are for. The Scottish/Welsh/NI devolved governments are overly focused on their own particular areas, and you could argue with Scotland, this includes being to the detriment of the rest of the UK.
		
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Very simply in that it clarifies things at no risk to revealing the actual detail of a starting point for negotiations.   And as a result of the clarification I know when it becomes pointless lobbying my MP; and if the Scottish government are saying late-Jan that no agreement on the basics have been reached that there is diddly-squat time for agreement to be reached - and if I am worried about a IndyRef2 I can raise my concerns.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Out of interest are we also expecting the EU commissioners t*o keep us fully posted as to their intentions with regard the Brexit negotiations?*

After all, we are still contributing and we played a part in electing the EU Parliament...
		
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No - and I am not asking them.  They have already said what their plans are in respect of negotiations with the UK pre-Act50 - these plans are that hey are doing precisely nothing.  They have announced their chief negotiator and their wish to have negotiations in French - nothing much else they can do until *we* state what we want.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			You've got it arse about face!

WE (at least most of us) don't need to know! And that's for several reasons! A) WE really have no influence over it! B) We trust/depend on the government getting the best deal possible! C) Depending on how/why they voted, some/many won't care on what deal is made! It's the leaving that counts!

If devolved governments are given a deadline for input (though what that 'input' would be I'm unsure), then they should accept that deadline! What the 'intimate details' that may/may not be divulged would be, I haven't a clue! 

Why can't you just accept that May is the ideal type of PM to actually run this - would have voted to Remain, but is determined to implement the Exit result with the best possible deal for UK! Her strategy so far - including the appointments she has made (and has not made!) to the Brexit department(s) seem to be pretty good to me! And I was a definite 'anti-May' when she was Home Secretary!
		
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I accept most of the above - but none of it actually prevents, or is in conflict with, the government giving us the timeline to Act50 at end March.  

And to what end? All that this does is that it says to the Scottish voters "you don't need to know" - and that is precisely the sort of statement that winds up many north of the border and reinforces their perception of how Scotland is perceived by Westminster.


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## Paperboy (Oct 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I accept most of the above - but none of it actually prevents, or is in conflict with, the government giving us the timeline to Act50 at end March.  

And to what end? All that this does is that it says to the Scottish voters "you don't need to know" - and that is precisely the sort of statement that winds up many north of the border and reinforces their perception of how Scotland is perceived by Westminster.
		
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Are the Welsh and Irish moaning?


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 24, 2016)

Paperboy said:



			Are the Welsh and Irish moaning?
		
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The Irish are not too happy. For the first time I can now see, a fair bit down the line, a united Ireland being a possibility.
The Welsh are just a Principality of England.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2016)

Paperboy said:



			Are the Welsh and Irish moaning?
		
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I suspect so.  The NI folks are very concerned about our stance in respect of the NI/Eire border.  I have read that the Eire government is very concerned about the impact on their economy if the UK is not in the single market.  As far as the Welsh are concerned - they are fortunate to not have the risk of independence hanging over it.


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## Old Skier (Oct 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Irish are not too happy. For the first time I can now see, a fair bit down the line, a united Ireland being a possibility.
The Welsh are just a Principality of England.
		
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Who would have known leaving the EU would result in the end of sectarianism in NI. If only the UK had know, they never would have joined the common market in the first place.


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## Old Skier (Oct 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I suspect so.  The NI folks are very concerned about our stance in respect of the NI/Eire border.  I have read that the Eire government is very concerned about the impact on their economy if the UK is not in the single market.  As far as the Welsh are concerned - they are fortunate to not have the risk of independence hanging over it.
		
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There are no concerns over the border as it was shown to work prior to our entry to the common market and the majority of the Welsh wanted out so were are you getting your info from or are you just recirculating DfT,s prejudice views again.


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## jp5 (Oct 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			There are no concerns over the border as it was shown to work prior to our entry to the common market
		
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So what happens when one half is in the common market and one isn't?


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## IanM (Oct 24, 2016)

So...special terms re both sides of the Irish Border can be worked out.

The EU will object of course but they won't be around by the end of the decade....As long as the Tories do actually take the uk out of the EU.

Either way, I t's about to kick off in Germany.... That'll kill off Federalism more quickly than our referendum


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## Old Skier (Oct 24, 2016)

jp5 said:



			So what happens when one half is in the common market and one isn't?
		
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Unfortunatly, the common market along with its vote, went a long time ago.


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## vkurup (Oct 24, 2016)

Good to hear that the Banks are making plans to leave/relocate..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37743700

... Some might say, that is not a problem.. after all what have the Banks done for us?  Other than employing a couple of million people directly or indirectly, paying handsome bonus which is then trickled down in various forms, push up house prices, bloat up pension pots via the stock market, pay taxes that fill the coffers and is UK biggest export.  ... nah, nothing important here.


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## IanM (Oct 24, 2016)

And of course several retractions of this were issued this morning.

It's all cobblers


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 24, 2016)

IanM said:



			So...special terms re both sides of the Irish Border can be worked out.

The EU will object of course but they won't be around by the end of the decade....As long as the Tories do actually take the uk out of the EU.

Either way, I t's about to kick off in Germany.... That'll kill off Federalism more quickly than our referendum
		
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Are you suggesting that they 'work it out' for Ireland but not Scotland


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## IanM (Oct 24, 2016)

No...just referred to Ireland as that's what the post was about.

Scotland is part of the U.K...For now..... 

  Not being a Scot I wint get a vote on it and as we know, if the left lose a referendum, they'll want to keep having them until the voters get the right answer!


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2016)

IanM said:



			And of course several retractions of this were issued this morning.
...
		
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Yeah? Where?

Of course, businesses - especially Banks - should be developing contingency plans for the various scenarios that Brexit could impose. And Banks have an obvious question - how will they be able to do any business at all in Europe?!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			There are no concerns over the border as it was shown to work prior to our entry to the common market and the majority of the Welsh wanted out so were are you getting your info from or are you just recirculating DfT,s prejudice views again.
		
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No concerns over the NI/Eire border? - you kidding me! 

#1 - an open EU/UK border allowing immigrants to enter the UK via Ireland (never mind customs etc issues) - or a closed border putting at risk the huge advances made in inter-community relations in NI since the Anglo-Irish Peace agreement.

It worked prior to UK joining the EEC because the Anglo-Irish treaty of 1922 was in place - and mass movement of peoples across and between continents did not exist.   It worked after the UK joined the EEC because Eire joined the EEC on the same day.  

Wales has simply got fewer complications for the parties to consider.


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## Old Skier (Oct 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No concerns over the NI/Eire border? - you kidding me.
		
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Why would I.


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## IanM (Oct 24, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Yeah? Where? QUOTE]


Precisely ....
		
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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Why would I.
		
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OK then - you are not kidding and you believe that there are no (important) issues in respect of the Eire/NI border to be resolved and everything will just work itself out.  OK then.  That'll be alright.


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## Old Skier (Oct 24, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK then - you are not kidding and you believe that there are no (important) issues in respect of the Eire/NI border to be resolved and everything will just work itself out.  OK then.  That'll be alright.
		
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Glad to have one federalist on board.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 24, 2016)

IanM said:



			No...just referred to Ireland as that's what the post was about.

Scotland is part of the U.K...For now..... 

  Not being a Scot I wint get a vote on it and as we know, if the left lose a referendum, they'll want to keep having them until the voters get the right answer! 

Click to expand...

The post was about the border.......well dodged.


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2016)

IanM said:





Foxholer said:



			Yeah? Where? QUOTE]


Precisely ....
		
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Are you simply trying to fudge your previous post being B-S? 

Click to expand...


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## vkurup (Oct 24, 2016)

So a question on Scottish Ref #2... 

T-May says she will invoke the  Article 50 in March to start the time bomb for the exit.  If Ms S then holds Indy Ref #2 any time within that 2 year period and 'wins' it i.e. Scotland decides to go its merry way, then since it is still technically a part of EU does it still need to 're-join' EU or can it say that 'we never left, so continue as usual'?  Just a thought (and probably as how Lady S is thinking too)


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2016)

vkurup said:



			So a question on Scottish Ref #2... 

T-May says she will invoke the  Article 50 in March to start the time bomb for the exit.  If Ms S then holds Indy Ref #2 any time within that 2 year period and 'wins' it i.e. Scotland decides to go its merry way, then since it is still technically a part of EU does it still need to 're-join' EU or can it say that 'we never left, so continue as usual'?  Just a thought (and probably as how Lady S is thinking too)
		
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Sturgeon needs to get permission from UK Government to hold IndyRef2.

Without that it's merely an opinion poll!


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## MarkE (Oct 24, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Good to hear that the Banks are making plans to leave/relocate..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37743700

... Some might say, that is not a problem.. after all what have the Banks done for us?  Other than employing a couple of million people directly or indirectly, paying handsome bonus which is then trickled down in various forms, push up house prices, bloat up pension pots via the stock market, pay taxes that fill the coffers and is UK biggest export.  ... nah, nothing important here.
		
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Public lobbying, nothing more. The banks are just posturing to cover their own backs as usual. There's no way London will not remain the financial hub of Europe and the banks know it. If any leave their places would just be taken by other financial institutions. Banks will not risk losing a foothold in London by moving elsewhere. It's easy to give counter arguments to your list of positives. How about scandal after scandal with bankers disgracing themselves and employers with dodgy dealings, massive bonuses for poor performance, massive golden handshakes when they are caught out. Not forgetting the bankers being a major cause to the biggest financial crisis ever in 2008, for which us plebs are still paying dearly, while they continue to pocket obscene amounts of cash. Just saying, for balance sake.


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Public lobbying, nothing more. The banks are just posturing to cover their own backs as usual. There's no way London will not remain the financial hub of Europe and the banks know it. If any leave their places would just be taken by other financial institutions. Banks will not risk losing a foothold in London by moving elsewhere. It's easy to give counter arguments to your list of positives. How about scandal after scandal with bankers disgracing themselves and employers with dodgy dealings, massive bonuses for poor performance, massive golden handshakes when they are caught out. Not forgetting the bankers being a major cause to the biggest financial crisis ever in 2008, for which us plebs are still paying dearly, while they continue to pocket obscene amounts of cash. Just saying, for balance sake.
		
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Sounds like an argument for actually getting rid of them!!


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 24, 2016)

vkurup said:



			So a question on Scottish Ref #2... 

T-May says she will invoke the  Article 50 in March to start the time bomb for the exit.  If Ms S then holds Indy Ref #2 any time within that 2 year period and 'wins' it i.e. Scotland decides to go its merry way, then since it is still technically a part of EU does it still need to 're-join' EU or can it say that 'we never left, so continue as usual'?  Just a thought (and probably as how Lady S is thinking too)
		
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Never left...... according to the EU big wigs.

Then cue mass exodus of London financial based services to Glasgow/Edinburgh/Aberdeen and perhaps Belfast as well.
Northumberland and Cumbria apply to become Scottish to seek better employment opportunities

Walengland PM Boris declares it will all be a lot better next year, honest you know that you can trust me.


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## vkurup (Oct 24, 2016)

MarkE said:



			Public lobbying, nothing more. The banks are just posturing to cover their own backs as usual. There's no way London will not remain the financial hub of Europe and the banks know it. If any leave their places would just be taken by other financial institutions. Banks will not risk losing a foothold in London by moving elsewhere. It's easy to give counter arguments to your list of positives. How about scandal after scandal with bankers disgracing themselves and employers with dodgy dealings, massive bonuses for poor performance, massive golden handshakes when they are caught out. Not forgetting the bankers being a major cause to the biggest financial crisis ever in 2008, for which us plebs are still paying dearly, while they continue to pocket obscene amounts of cash. Just saying, for balance sake.
		
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.. i agree there is a case of reform,,,,  however we are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

The biggest strength of London financial machine is how international it is.  Will London continue to be hub if passporting is not available, is debatable. While high street banking operation will survive, the future of money machine that constitutes non-retail bank is difficult.  Wasn't Manchester the weaving capital of the world?  I am sure someone is going to come around and say that European banks will need to be in the UK, but has anyone seen how (relatively) small a pure-UK asset book is? Surely there are other opportunities e.g. Renminbi based trading will grow as China expands.  Also dont forget London Stock Exchange is in final merger talks with Germany's Deutsche Boerse, so the argument that they will all come here because they want to be on the LSE does not hold much water either. 

On the flip side, UK could play a blinder by halfing Corporate tax or declare itself to be a tax haven.  Great to retain corporate, but not so great with the Treasury and worse with electorate...


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2016)

Foxholer said:





IanM said:



			Precisely
		
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Are you simply trying to fudge your previous post being B-S? 

Click to expand...

The lack of response would indicate the answer to the above question is 'Yes'!

Personally, I'm more swayed by the *reasoning* in this article - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...ks-wont-leave-the-city-of-london-after-brexi/

But it's still a case of making contingency plans; and a bit/lot of posturing!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 24, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Never left...... according to the EU big wigs.
		
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More classic DfT tosh, with no basis in fact.

And remember how well the Scots managed banks performed; RBS, HBoS.


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## Old Skier (Oct 24, 2016)

This is the sort of thing that shows part of what's wrong with the EU. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37749236


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## Old Skier (Oct 24, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			More classic DfT tosh, with no basis in fact.
		
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Classic lefties rubbish from him, say it often enough and some gullible loser will believe it.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 24, 2016)

vkurup said:



*Good to hear that the Banks are making plans to leave/relocate..*
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37743700

... Some might say, that is not a problem.. after all what have the Banks done for us?  Other than employing a couple of million people directly or indirectly, paying handsome bonus which is then trickled down in various forms, push up house prices, bloat up pension pots via the stock market, pay taxes that fill the coffers and is UK biggest export.  ... nah, nothing important here.
		
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That article is BS but I see you are still hoping the country ill.  maybe it's time for you to leave.


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## Foxholer (Oct 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			This is the sort of thing that shows part of what's wrong with the EU. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37749236

Click to expand...

Isn't that the same thing that has been the sticking point for the TTIP agreement - but at  rather higher/more visible level?

TTIP's rules that allow corporations to sue governments for legitimate laws, that restrict those corporations profits, are obscene!

It's not the EU that's the problem! It's the multi-national corporations - and their endless search for greater profit (the epitome of Capitalism) that are THE problem! Some in-between seems to me to be the optimum balance, but it takes events such as the issues with CETA to highlight the problems!


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 25, 2016)

May invites the First Ministers of Wales, NI and Scotland to discuss Brexit at No10, tells them to sod off, then declares it was a positive meeting.
It really does feel like UKIP have now taken over the reigns of the UK.


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## MarkE (Oct 25, 2016)

vkurup said:



			.. i agree there is a case of reform,,,,  however we are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

The biggest strength of London financial machine is how international it is.  Will London continue to be hub if passporting is not available, is debatable. While high street banking operation will survive, the future of money machine that constitutes non-retail bank is difficult.  Wasn't Manchester the weaving capital of the world?  I am sure someone is going to come around and say that European banks will need to be in the UK, but has anyone seen how (relatively) small a pure-UK asset book is? Surely there are other opportunities e.g. Renminbi based trading will grow as China expands.  Also dont forget London Stock Exchange is in final merger talks with Germany's Deutsche Boerse, so the argument that they will all come here because they want to be on the LSE does not hold much water either. 

On the flip side, UK could play a blinder by halfing Corporate tax or declare itself to be a tax haven.  Great to retain corporate, but not so great with the Treasury and worse with electorate...
		
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All good points. The government will make sure, one way or another that London retains it's position, it's too big of a contributer to the UK coffers. The merger, from what I understand will be beneficial to all sides and will not diminish the UK's standing. 
I'm sure the threat of the UK lowering corporation tax to undercut the eu will be one of the bargaining positions in negotiations.


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## MegaSteve (Oct 25, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Isn't that the same thing that has been the sticking point for the TTIP agreement - but at  rather higher/more visible level?

TTIP's rules that allow corporations to sue governments for legitimate laws, that restrict those corporations profits, are obscene!

It's not the EU that's the problem! It's the multi-national corporations - and their endless search for greater profit (the epitome of Capitalism) that are THE problem! Some in-between seems to me to be the optimum balance, but it takes events such as the issues with CETA to highlight the problems!
		
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I wonder if Ms Sturgeon has the balls to explain the full implications of TTIP to the good folk of Scotland... Already been some pretty serious demonstrations against it in Germany... 

Sadly, even with brexit I reckon whoever is in at Westminster will be having same/similar talks with the US... The ordinary working person hasn't got a great deal to look forward too...


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## vkurup (Oct 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			That article is BS *but I see you are still hoping the country ill*.  maybe it's time for you to leave.
		
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Oh wise one.. please do let me know how you made that inference???  

I am not surprised that you seem to shank all your opinion about others just as your name suggests..


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## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Isn't that the same thing that has been the sticking point for the TTIP agreement - but at  rather higher/more visible level?

TTIP's rules that allow corporations to sue governments for legitimate laws, that restrict those corporations profits, are obscene!

It's not the EU that's the problem! It's the multi-national corporations - and their endless search for greater profit (the epitome of Capitalism) that are THE problem! Some in-between seems to me to be the optimum balance, but it takes events such as the issues with CETA to highlight the problems!
		
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MegaSteve said:



			I wonder if Ms Sturgeon has the balls to explain the full implications of TTIP to the good folk of Scotland... Already been some pretty serious demonstrations against it in Germany... 

Sadly, even with brexit I reckon whoever is in at Westminster will be having same/similar talks with the US... The ordinary working person hasn't got a great deal to look forward too...
		
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I find it hard to believe that the EU is still trying to push this through. Its a disgusting piece of legislation, and transparently so. Who's taking the backhanders to push it through, coz no one in the right mind would accept this for their country!


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## Old Skier (Oct 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			May invites the First Ministers of Wales, NI and Scotland to discuss Brexit at No10, tells them to sod off, then declares it was a positive meeting.
It really does feel like UKIP have now taken over the reigns of the UK.
		
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Perhaps as you have such intimate knowledge of the meeting you could tell us what biscuits were available and was it tea or coffee.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Perhaps as you have such intimate knowledge of the meeting you could tell us what biscuits were available and was it tea or coffee.
		
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There was a problem with the Tea and Coffee as NS had soured the milk.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2016)

vkurup said:



*Good to hear that the Banks are making plans to leave/relocate.*.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37743700

... Some might say, that is not a problem.. after all what have the Banks done for us?  Other than employing a couple of million people directly or indirectly, paying handsome bonus which is then trickled down in various forms, push up house prices, bloat up pension pots via the stock market, pay taxes that fill the coffers and is UK biggest export.  ... nah, nothing important here.
		
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vkurup said:



			Oh wise one.. please do let me know how you made that inference???  

I am not surprised that you seem to shank all your opinion about others just as your name suggests..
		
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That's where I made the inference! Speaks for it's self.  

Certainly a good idea to shank your posts into the rough where they belong.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2016)

So what's changed then in the last couple of weeks or is it the same back and forth biting and bitching between the same people ?

Maybe it's just me but think the last couple of days have provided a different t perspective on things but if I was like what the posters are like on this thread in the past then I can only apologise for the tedious dull repetitive nature of what I posted on various threads around the forum and just hope that sooner or later whatever happens with the UK and the EU is sorted to stop these depressing threads appearing and then dragging on and on and on with the same point from both sides being regurgitated over and over again


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## MegaSteve (Oct 25, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I find it hard to believe that the EU is still trying to push this through. Its a disgusting piece of legislation, and transparently so. Who's taking the backhanders to push it through, coz no one in the right mind would accept this for their country!
		
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Without the intervention of the good folk of Wallonia the EU would be signing up for a watered down version of TTIP with Canada this coming Friday...


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## MarkE (Oct 25, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So what's changed then in the last couple of weeks or is it the same back and forth biting and bitching between the same people ?

Maybe it's just me but think the last couple of days have provided a different t perspective on things but if I was like what the posters are like on this thread in the past then I can only apologise for the tedious dull repetitive nature of what I posted on various threads around the forum and just hope that sooner or later whatever happens with the UK and the EU is sorted to stop these depressing threads appearing and then dragging on and on and on with the same point from both sides being regurgitated over and over again
		
Click to expand...

Why are you reading it if it's not your cup of tea? Personally, it's the first thread I look at every day.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Perhaps as you have such intimate knowledge of the meeting you could tell us what biscuits were available and was it tea or coffee.
		
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Now that is just being silly.........Try finding our what the First Ministers on NI, Wales and Scotland said.
It is probably not in 'The News Where You Are'.


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## Foxholer (Oct 25, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So what's changed then in the last couple of weeks or is it the same back and forth biting and bitching between the same people ?

Maybe it's just me but think the last couple of days have provided a different t perspective on things but if I was like what the posters are like on this thread in the past then I can only apologise for the tedious dull repetitive nature of what I posted on various threads around the forum and just hope that sooner or later whatever happens with the UK and the EU is sorted to stop these depressing threads appearing and then dragging on and on and on with the same point from both sides being regurgitated over and over again
		
Click to expand...

Apology accepted!  

Entrenched attitudes rarely provide entertaining discussion - rather like obsessive Football fans, there is no likelihood of reasoned discussion!

That accepted, there is no place for personal abuse or insults in any discussion, something that has happened far too frequently in this thread! Not only does it tend to negate the value of the argument (imo), but it breaches Forum rules!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Good to hear that the Banks are making plans to leave/relocate..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37743700

... Some might say, that is not a problem.. after all what have the Banks done for us?  Other than employing a couple of million people directly or indirectly, paying handsome bonus which is then trickled down in various forms, push up house prices, bloat up pension pots via the stock market, pay taxes that fill the coffers and is UK biggest export.  ... nah, nothing important here.
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			So what's changed then in the last couple of weeks or is it the same back and forth biting and bitching between the same people ?

Maybe it's just me but think the last couple of days have provided a different t perspective on things but if I was like what the posters are like on this thread in the past then I can only apologise for the tedious dull repetitive nature of what I posted on various threads around the forum and just hope that sooner or later whatever happens with the UK and the EU is sorted to stop these depressing threads appearing and then dragging on and on and on with the same point from both sides being regurgitated over and over again
		
Click to expand...

It's really not compulsory reading.   Don't look.


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## vkurup (Oct 25, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			It's really not compulsory reading.   Don't look.
		
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Finally we agree on something.. not worth reading.. Still hasn't got his head out from the wrong end, must love hearing his own echo.

Sorry for the language, but cant help if people behave like they are Donald Trump..


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## Old Skier (Oct 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Now that is just being silly.........Try finding our what the First Ministers on NI, Wales and Scotland said.
It is probably not in 'The News Where You Are'.
		
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Nor in the news where you are. If it was it would only prove the point that giving out information the press in a confidential meeting would undermine the negotiating position of the UK.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Finally we agree on something.. not worth reading.. Still hasn't got his head out from the wrong end, must love hearing his own echo.

Sorry for the language, but cant help if people behave like they are Donald Trump..
		
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I apologise for inserting your previous quote, I had forgotten to untick it.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 25, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Apology accepted!  

Entrenched attitudes rarely provide entertaining discussion - rather like obsessive Football fans, there is no likelihood of reasoned discussion!

That accepted, there is no place for personal abuse or insults in any discussion, something that has happened far too frequently in this thread! Not only does it tend to negate the value of the argument (imo), but it breaches Forum rules!
		
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So report posts that cross the line, so that we can keep the Forum a happy and nice place to be.

No point in bleating after the event....

BAAAAAAAAAAAA


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Nor in the news where you are. If it was it would only prove the point that giving out information the press in a confidential meeting would undermine the negotiating position of the UK.
		
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Eh.... the three first ministers responses to the meeting have been widely quoted in the press and online.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Eh.... the three first ministers responses to the meeting have been widely quoted in the press and online.
		
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As Jimmy is a one trick pony her opinions are meaningless.


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## vkurup (Oct 25, 2016)

The Guardian reports leaked recording that shows what Theresa May really thinks about Brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-what-theresa-may-really-thinks-about-brexit


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## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2016)

vkurup said:



			The Guardian reports leaked recording that shows what Theresa May really thinks about Brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-what-theresa-may-really-thinks-about-brexit

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What she thought before the Referendum, I think we all understand she was a remainer.  The point is that now she is being pragmatic and accepting that her views lost and she now has to throw her efforts into making Brexit a success.


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## larmen (Oct 25, 2016)

vkurup said:



			The Guardian reports leaked recording that shows what Theresa May really thinks about Brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-what-theresa-may-really-thinks-about-brexit

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But that was before she got 'an overwhelming mandate', right? Now Brexit is Brexit. And because a few people are demolishing Polish shops it's a mandate for hard Brexit, because that is what all of the 52% want.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 26, 2016)

I thought she might be OK - but I am getting a feeling that perhaps Theresa Maybe not up to the job.  A bit too much control freakery going on, and I find micro-management to be a sign of not actually being in control and being rather out-of-depth.


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## Hobbit (Oct 26, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I thought she might be OK - but I am getting a feeling that perhaps Theresa Maybe not up to the job.  A bit too much control freakery going on, and I find micro-management to be a sign of not actually being in control and being rather out-of-depth.
		
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It just goes to show how opinions can differ. I feel she's doing a great job of controlling a very difficult issue in which the strong characters in her cabinet could run off at the mouth and weaken the party's position as well as the negotiating position with the EU.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 26, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			As Jimmy is a one trick pony her opinions are meaningless.
		
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......and the other two?


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## Old Skier (Oct 26, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Eh.... the three first ministers responses to the meeting have been widely quoted in the press and online.
		
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Rubbish - You had the normal "I will not agree to anything that Westminster proposes from the normal candidate, with our lady from Wales jumping on the bandwagon even though the majority in Wales want out and the NI Minister has been fairly quite.

You need to get over the fact that  around 10% of the UK population are not going to be major players in this or most other things that have a major impact on the whole UK. Be happy that you have a party that is being allowed to bankrupt your country.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 26, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			......and the other two?
		
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They are normal people so their opinions are more valid.


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## Foxholer (Oct 26, 2016)

Ah! The cunning plan has been revealed! 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37774292

Probably an error on Corbyn's part to confess to taking 2 days to come up with that one, but entertaining nevertheless!

And as a complete aside... what the heck was the PM wearing around her neck? Trophies perhaps?


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## harpo_72 (Oct 26, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Ah! The cunning plan has been revealed! 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37774292

Probably an error on Corbyn's part to confess to taking 2 days to come up with that one, but entertaining nevertheless!

And as a complete aside... what the heck was the PM wearing around her neck? Trophies perhaps? 

Click to expand...

Delivery was poor from both, can't help feeling that neither gives confidence &#128533;. We actually need a strong charismatic leader ...


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## Foxholer (Oct 26, 2016)

harpo_72 said:



			Delivery was poor from both, can't help feeling that neither gives confidence &#128533;. We actually need a strong charismatic leader ...
		
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I believe She'll get better! Unfortunately, I believe He won't!

For all his 'lack of clout/aura' in many areas, Cameron was actually very good at PMQs!

I still think that Yvette Cooper is Labour's best hope - plenty of 'her husband's surname' , though a sense of humour wouldn't go amiss!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 27, 2016)

_"I don't think we should wait for any question of reciprocity"_

I am glad that at least one ex Home Secretary is thinking straight on existing immigrants - rare it is that I agree with Michael Howard

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-leader-europe-stay-immediately-a7379706.html


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 27, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			I believe She'll get better! Unfortunately, I believe He won't!

For all his 'lack of clout/aura' in many areas, Cameron was actually very good at PMQs!

I still think that Yvette Cooper is Labour's best hope - plenty of 'her husband's surname' , though a sense of humour wouldn't go amiss!
		
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I don't think she'll get better until she stops micro-managing - so for instance Amber Rudd seems to be no more than a deputy Home Secretary at the moment - and she is not the only Cabinet/Brexit Minister she has slapped down.  And as far as the Foreign Secretary and Heathrow.  She should have told him - FS and Cabinet Responsibility or No FS and you can continue to campaign against Heathrow.


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## User62651 (Oct 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



_"I don't think we should wait for any question of reciprocity"_

I am glad that at least one ex Home Secretary is thinking straight on existing immigrants - rare it is that I agree with Michael Howard

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-leader-europe-stay-immediately-a7379706.html

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I know of at least 2 in my company who have resigned on the question of uncertainty on rights to stay, one Irish with an American wife, the other Finnish and are taking their families out of UK having been here years, when you're talking of peoples livelihoods any uncertainty in job security and right to stay will make peope leave, it's too risky to just wait it out and hope you'll be ok, this side of Brexit seems to be another example of where May cannot make the calls that need to be made as nothing in terms of details was thought through or set out before the referendum vote and she won't declare until she has reciprocity from EU. I expect some Brexiteers are happy that 'foreigners' such as these are leaving so they 'can get their country back' to coin a popular if ridiculous imo phrase but these are specialist jobs that need filled and there aren't the necessary number of trained UK people to fill them. Residency permits or temporary visas and the like aren't enough to keep people with families, I see that as more for single young workers in for example the hotels and tourism industry, people with families looking for long term work in specialist fields need more security than that. 
With the Â£ weaking so much against the Euro they (EU citizens) probably wont want to come here any longer anyway. Problems ahead. 
As for unskilled labour do we really think UK citizens are going to do the farm labouring work en masse the eastern europeans do...not a chance....imo.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 27, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



			I know of at least 2 in my company who have resigned on the question of uncertainty on rights to stay, one Irish with an American wife, the other Finnish and are taking their families out of UK having been here years, when you're talking of peoples livelihoods any uncertainty in job security and right to stay will make peope leave, it's too risky to just wait it out and hope you'll be ok, this side of Brexit seems to be another example of where May cannot make the calls that need to be made as nothing in terms of details was thought through or set out before the referendum vote and she won't declare until she has reciprocity from EU. I expect some Brexiteers are happy that 'foreigners' such as these are leaving so they 'can get their country back' to coin a popular if ridiculous imo phrase but these are specialist jobs that need filled and there aren't the necessary number of trained UK people to fill them. Residency permits or temporary visas and the like aren't enough to keep people with families, I see that as more for single young workers in for example the hotels and tourism industry, people with families looking for long term work in specialist fields need more security than that. 
With the Â£ weaking so much against the Euro they (EU citizens) probably wont want to come here any longer anyway. Problems ahead. 
As for unskilled labour do we really think UK citizens are going to do the farm labouring work en masse the eastern europeans do...not a chance....imo.
		
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Your post is all exaggeration; almost to the point of being laughable. 

People always have and always will decide to move countries due to better work opportunities and the wish to better their lot.  The two people you have mentioned are nothing you wouldn't find unusual at ant time and to suggest it's solely due to Brexit is gilding the lily somewhat, Irish people have had special rights to residency in the UK going back way before we joined the EU. My Son moved to the USA twelve years ago to better his lot, should we blame the EU for that?  Of course not.

You are so ready to blame your own Government over giving current EU the immigrants right to stay but don't complain that the EU is not currently offering the same.   Rather one sided view IMO.   Do you honestly believe we will turf out all EU citizens after Brexit?

So you don't think people from places like Poland, Romania, Bulgaria etc will want to come to the UK to work anymore!  Do you understand what they get paid in their own Countries and the level of benefits they get there?

You also seem to have a reality filter regarding immigration.  NO ONE in their right mind is suggesting we stop all immigration, we only want to control it.   There will still be the opportunity for people from the EU to come to the UK and do low skilled jobs, the only difference is there will probably be a visa system in place just like there would be if they wanted to work in the USA, Australia, New Zealand and just about every other country in the World.

Calm down Dear!


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## User62651 (Oct 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Your post is all exaggeration; almost to the point of being laughable. Glad to entertain! Some replies in blue for more entertainment!

People always have and always will decide to move countries due to better work opportunities and the wish to better their lot.  I know The two people you have mentioned are nothing you wouldn't find unusual at ant time and to suggest it's solely due to Brexit is gilding the lily somewhat, Irish people have had special rights to residency in the UK going back way before we joined the EU. The Irish person *has* left over primarily residency uncertainty but relating to his partners US position as much as his own EU one, their call not mine. My Son moved to the USA twelve years ago to better his lot, should we blame the EU for that?  Of course not.

You are so ready to blame your own Government over giving current EU the immigrants right to stay but don't complain that the EU is not currently offering the same. I have only blamed inaction on the topic per the Howard article, if you read what I wrote I said May was waiting on reciprocity to act and that was the problem - uncertainty  Rather one sided view IMO.   Do you honestly believe we will turf out all EU citizens after Brexit? No - didn't say that but people are leaving given lack of comment from Govt on the position

So you don't think people from places like Poland, Romania, Bulgaria etc will want to come to the UK to work anymore!  Do you understand what they get paid in their own Countries and the level of benefits they get there? Thanks for the patronising socio economic lesson, unskilled eastern europeans will, perhaps more skilled workers from wealthier parts of EU wont, we'll need to see where our economy goes. 

You also seem to have a reality filter regarding immigration.  NO ONE in their right mind is suggesting we stop all immigration, we only want to control it. Didn't say anything about stopping all immigration, merely mentioned other access arrangements   There will still be the opportunity for people from the EU to come to the UK and do low skilled jobs, the only difference is there will probably be a visa system in place just like there would be if they wanted to work in the USA, Australia, New Zealand and just about every other country in the World. Yes I basically said that already.

Calm down Dear!
		
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 ....perhaps you need to calm down??


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 27, 2016)

maxfli65 said:



....perhaps you need to calm down??

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Careful 65, you just might send him over the edge.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 27, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Your post is all exaggeration; almost to the point of being laughable. 

People always have and always will decide to move countries due to better work opportunities and the wish to better their lot.  The two people you have mentioned are nothing you wouldn't find unusual at ant time and to suggest it's solely due to Brexit is gilding the lily somewhat, Irish people have had special rights to residency in the UK going back way before we joined the EU. My Son moved to the USA twelve years ago to better his lot, should we blame the EU for that?  Of course not.

You are so ready to blame your own Government over giving current EU the immigrants right to stay but don't complain that the EU is not currently offering the same.   Rather one sided view IMO.   Do you honestly believe we will turf out all EU citizens after Brexit?

So you don't think people from places like Poland, Romania, Bulgaria etc will want to come to the UK to work anymore!  Do you understand what they get paid in their own Countries and the level of benefits they get there?

You also seem to have a reality filter regarding immigration.  NO ONE in their right mind is suggesting we stop all immigration, we only want to control it.   There will still be the opportunity for people from the EU to come to the UK and do low skilled jobs, the only difference is there will probably be a visa system in place just like there would be if they wanted to work in the USA, Australia, New Zealand and just about every other country in the World.

Calm down Dear!
		
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Absolutely no-one has a moral right to use the lives of individuals as a bargaining piece - they become hostage to fortune and it is actually rather abhorrent that many in this country seem to think that it is.  Meanwhile the government does nothing to dissuade them of that notion and expectations of hard-line _Leavers  _ build that the UK will do some deportation.  

Rather typical of the new PM - unable or just feart to make a decision that she knows will upset many who voted _Leave_ - but sometimes you have to do the *Right* thing and not the thing that is easiest for you.  And no matter which way you look at the status of existing EU citizens, *right* thing to do is to state that all can stay.  The EU need not say anything as they have not made any suggestion that they would kick out UK citizens, it is only the UK that is stringing this along.

Besides - you have said yourself...

_Do you honestly believe we will turf out all EU citizens after Brexit?_

Of course we won't - so we must*stop *playing this silly, but nasty, game with peoples lives.

And on the _Daily Politics_ today I hear also that Michael Gove, questioned by Andrew Neil,  is in complete agreement with Howard


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 27, 2016)

Be interested in the Remoaners & Scaremongers view on this piece of news;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37787890


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## MegaSteve (Oct 27, 2016)

The three Poles that work at same place as I do firmly believe/feel they are going nowhere... Same for the eight Romanians that work in the adjacent unit... And, all of them can't fathom out why we would be considering letting in anyone from the 'the jungle'... Might be different for those that work in the corporate world...


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 27, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Be interested in the Remoaners & Scaremongers view on this piece of news;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37787890

Click to expand...


Before anyone gets too carried away with this decision, great news by the way, I'd like to see how much money the govt has handed over to Nissan in "training grants" in order that this decision went the way it did. I don't expect any great transparency on that front, the govt don't like to fess up to this type of thing.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 27, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Careful 65, you just might send him over the edge.
		
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That's rich coming from Jimmies sidekick.  Doom Frae Loon.


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## delc (Oct 27, 2016)

Apparently Michael Gove has been appointed to the select committee overseeing Brexit.  God help us!


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 27, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Before anyone gets too carried away with this decision, great news by the way, I'd like to see how much money the govt has handed over to Nissan in "training grants" in order that this decision went the way it did. I don't expect any great transparency on that front, the govt don't like to fess up to this type of thing.
		
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Curiously enough, a man from Nissan answers that in the article, it's in the sound clip; none.  But IF they had done, is it any different to any other Government anywhere in the world incentivising a firm to come to their country rather than build a plant in another country?


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 27, 2016)

Nissan have been given "support and assurances". They wont confirm what that support means but I doubt it is an arm around the shoulder. They've been getting money for years from the govt. Incentives to build a plant are common. Getting an annual wedge for staying is another. Can we all apply for one? How big do you have to be to receive such "support"?


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 27, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Nissan have been given "support and assurances". They wont confirm what that support means but I doubt it is an arm around the shoulder. They've been getting money for years from the govt. Incentives to build a plant are common. Getting an annual wedge for staying is another. Can we all apply for one? How big do you have to be to receive such "support"?
		
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the North East is an area of high unemployment.   7,000 secured jobs probably paying (granted at a guesstimate) an average of Â£3,000 per annum income tax equates to Â£21 million.  That's without the NI contributions, the VAT contributions generated because the 7,000 have money in their pockets to spend, the expectations that it will generate further jobs and the consequent contributions from these generated jobs.  That's without the feel good factor that those employed get from working. 

Or 7,000 people out of work and claiming unemployment benefits and generally feeling undervalued, useless and resentful?

Nissan say they haven't received anything from what I've heard.  I fully understand, and share, your scepticism regarding Government honesty.  But if they have given Nissan some financial assistance could it not be worth it, not only from the financial positives on the balance sheet, but because it also sends a positive message to other businesses that there is a future outside of the EU?  And does it also not send a message to the rest of the EU that we are capable of standing on our own outside of the union and potentially strengthen our negotiating position come bargaining time?


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 27, 2016)

I get all of what you say, also why the govt chucks money at Nissan. I just would quite like them to chuck some of that money at my business. It would lighten my worries if I got a similar slice of free pie :thup:


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 27, 2016)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I get all of what you say, also why the govt chucks money at Nissan. I just would quite like them to chuck some of that money at my business. It would lighten my worries if I got a similar slice of free pie :thup:
		
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Yup.
My daughter/SIL have had to postpone plans to expand their business due to the fall in Sterling since Brexit.
Probably a years hard work down the Swannee.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 27, 2016)

Nissan Qashqai - great news for Sunderland


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 27, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Be interested in the Remoaners & Scaremongers view on this piece of news;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-37787890

Click to expand...

Great new for Sunderland.  If UK hadn't managed to hold on to the production of the Qashqai that would have been a total disaster for the region - maybe Nissan bosses thought t it best not to do that.  But it strikes me as one of these things like an ultra-safe parliamentary seat - if Sunderland couldn't hold Nissan then every piece of foreign investment in the UK would be at risk.  But great news nonetheless.  We won;t really know the real impact of Brexit for another 10 years - and by that time Nissan will be looking at replacing the Qashqai.


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## IanM (Oct 27, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yup.
My daughter/SIL have had to postpone plans to expand their business due to the fall in Sterling *caused by all the scare-mongering since referendum vote*.
Probably a years hard work down the Swannee.
		
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...there you go,  corrected for you! 

Bought some Singapore Dollars today for my trip next month.  Looking at the graph it fell more from Nov 15 to April 16 than it had between the vote and now.  Pre vote you could get any price you liked on a STAY vote,  so I wonder what was bringing down the currency this time last year? 

So, I dug out old Bulletins - Sterling was listed as over valued due to the level of debt in the UK and it worsening position European Central Bank.  And today, we get confirmation of what weve known for about 18 months.. Deutsche Bank is knackered.  I bet as BREXIT hasn't happened yet, we'll end up contributing to the bail out!  Ho Hum


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## IanM (Oct 27, 2016)

...And of course certain amount of tongue in cheek meant below... Nothing is worse for currency than uncertainty, and boy,  a Leave Vote is the biggest shakeup we've ever had (other than War) and it's tough out there.

So no offence intended... Not many folk have changed their minds in this thread and not expecting either.

But, the stats are sometimes funny things!


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## Foxholer (Oct 27, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Great new for Sunderland.  If UK hadn't managed to hold on to the production of the Qashqai that would have been a total disaster for the region - maybe Nissan bosses thought t it best not to do that.  But it strikes me as one of these things like an ultra-safe parliamentary seat - if Sunderland couldn't hold Nissan then every piece of foreign investment in the UK would be at risk.  But great news nonetheless.  We won;t really know the real impact of Brexit for another 10 years - and by that time Nissan will be looking at replacing the Qashqai.
		
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This was one of the reasons I was shocked at the amazing vote for Brexit in Sunderland! I still don't fully understand it, but possibly a great number of the Nissan staff are actually immigrants!

Excellent news anyway!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			This was one of the reasons I was shocked at the amazing vote for Brexit in Sunderland! I still don't fully understand it, but possibly a great number of the Nissan staff are actually immigrants!

Excellent news anyway!
		
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Mind you - I have since heard plenty of _Leavers_ moan that the _Remoaners_ continue to 'do down' this news - when in fact I haven't heard anyone 'do it down'.  Asking what arrangements, agreements or commitments have been given to Nissan is not doing anything down.

Seems to me that a lot of _Leavers _have not yet accepted that us _Remainers _have largely come to terms with the fact that we are leaving.  

I just want leaving to be as painless and beneficial to the UK as possible - and so will ask questions and probe, and that will mean listening critically and at times cynically given what was done to get us here,   And we will not stick our head in the sand whilst Brexit is being sorted, and saying 'It'll be alright...'  (you'd get a mouthful of sand if you did - and that wouldn't be very nice).

The Nissan announcement is fantastic news - but is the business/commercial/export model underpinning the decision - with whatever was agreed with the government - more widely applicable?   If it is - great.  We're following the rainbow to it's end.


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## vkurup (Oct 28, 2016)

Its good news on Nissan.  It was interesting to see the Tory fella squirm in his seat saying 'no-cheque book' on QT.  Irrespective of the fact that cheque book or not, I am happy to see the Govt do something positive rather than dragging everyone down with 'no running commentary'.  A few more Nissan deals and it will do wonders to confidence and there are plenty of opportunities for the govt to do - Westland, Banks, Siemens, Steel etc.  Get some more marquee clients in and not just in London and we will all be smiling.  Beyond the big boys, the govt should look at SME business which form the backbone of this country.  Why dont we look at cutting corp tax for SME or VAT passthrus.  They need something to counter balance the fall in the pound, give them the right stimulus. The GBP is likely to fall further as we get closer to the self inflicted March deadline, so lets see something in the Autumn statement that can help... 

Come on Britain..


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## SocketRocket (Oct 28, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Its good news on Nissan.  It was interesting to see the Tory fella squirm in his seat saying 'no-cheque book' on QT.  Irrespective of the fact that cheque book or not, I am happy to see the Govt do something positive rather than dragging everyone down with 'no running commentary'.  A few more Nissan deals and it will do wonders to confidence and there are plenty of opportunities for the govt to do - Westland, Banks, Siemens, Steel etc.  Get some more marquee clients in and not just in London and we will all be smiling.  Beyond the big boys, the govt should look at SME business which form the backbone of this country.  Why dont we look at cutting corp tax for SME or VAT passthrus.  They need something to counter balance the fall in the pound, give them the right stimulus. The GBP is likely to fall further as we get closer to the self inflicted March deadline, so lets see something in the Autumn statement that can help... 

Come on Britain..
		
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Much of what you say is good although we wont be able to implement a lot until we have broken free of the EU as regulations prohibit us.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Mind you - I have since heard plenty of _Leavers_ moan that the _Remoaners_ continue to 'do down' this news - when in fact I haven't heard anyone 'do it down'.  Asking what arrangements, agreements or commitments have been given to Nissan is not doing anything down.

Seems to me that a lot of _Leavers _have not yet accepted that us _Remainers _have largely come to terms with the fact that we are leaving.  

I just want leaving to be as painless and beneficial to the UK as possible - and so will ask questions and probe, and that will mean listening critically and at times cynically given what was done to get us here,   And we will not stick our head in the sand whilst Brexit is being sorted, and saying 'It'll be alright...'  (you'd get a mouthful of sand if you did - and that wouldn't be very nice).

The Nissan announcement is fantastic news - but is the business/commercial/export model underpinning the decision - with whatever was agreed with the government - more widely applicable?   If it is - great.  We're following the rainbow to it's end.
		
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Fair enough although I suspect you want a Non-Brexit Brexit, one where we are in the single market, have free movement of people, pay into the EU coffers and accept the ECJ over British Law.  To me that's not Brexit at all.


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## vkurup (Oct 28, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Much of what you say is good although we wont be able to implement a lot until we have broken free of the EU as regulations prohibit us.
		
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If you can do with Nissan, then they can do with others.   I find it funny when people say we have high Business rates or council rents force half of town centres to be boarded up due to Brussels.  It is a bit like every bizarre decision is due to Health & Safety consideration.  Did they not recently fire all the bell ringers in York who have been ringing bells for a decade due to Elf & Safty reasons or was Brussels involved?   Even my Christmas dinner will have Brussels Sprouts, will that change after Brexist


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## Foxholer (Oct 28, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Fair enough although I suspect you want a Non-Brexit Brexit, one where we are in the single market, have free movement of people, pay into the EU coffers and accept the ECJ over British Law.  To me that's not Brexit at all.
		
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And you'd be correct!

It's access to the single market that is desired (I believe the 'soft' Brexit), at least be me! If that involves/requires some sort of fee to allow it to happen, then that may be acceptable - though if it's a sizeable one, then that's a tariff by another name! It certainly shouldn't involve a fee that varies with GDP, nor require free movement of people! Likewise, the ECJ would become irrelevant to the UK as it only makes rulings on EU law/matters.

Whether that can be negotiated or not is only going to be found out after Article 50 has been triggered.


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## Foxholer (Oct 28, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Much of what you say is good although we wont be able to implement a lot until we have broken free of the EU as regulations prohibit us.
		
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Those Regulations you seem to be referring to are not necessarily 'evil'! They are aimed at preventing member states from (effectively) being corrupt, thus allowing a 'level playing field' for competing companies within the EU and for member states bidding for companies to base their operations within Europe!

ECJ would not deem the likes of Corp Tax rates, VAT etc an issue as long as they apply universally in the member state - ie. not for a specific deal! That would be deemed to be 'unfair to other member states' so would be ruled against!

That seems to me to be entirely fair - and proper!


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## Tashyboy (Oct 28, 2016)

So Tony Blair has crawled out from where ever and said that the remainers are the insurgents now and must do all they can to make sure that the UK remains in Europe. An odious man indeed.
This country's democracy is based upon one man one vote. The people have spoken. I wish him, Corbyn and Sturgeon would be cast in a lifeboat in the middle of the ocean.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Fair enough although I suspect you want a Non-Brexit Brexit, one where we are in the single market, have free movement of people, pay into the EU coffers and accept the ECJ over British Law.  To me that's not Brexit at all.
		
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At least you seem to know what Brexit means - maybe you can tell our PM as she doesn't.  There is no such thing as a non-Brexit Brexit - as Brexit isn't defined.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			And you'd be correct!

It's access to the single market that is desired (I believe the 'soft' Brexit), at least be me! If that involves/requires some sort of fee to allow it to happen, then that may be acceptable - though if it's a sizeable one, then that's a tariff by another name! It certainly shouldn't involve a fee that varies with GDP, nor require free movement of people! Likewise, *the ECJ would become irrelevant to the UK as it only makes rulings on EU law/matters.*

Whether that can be negotiated or not is only going to be found out after Article 50 has been triggered.
		
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Not necessarily so, as it is likely that anything that we produce or provide to the EU will have to comply with the rulings of the ECJ that impact products and services etc.   And any UK regulations to assure compliance with EU standards that we build into UK law in this respect, will have to be reviewed and amended accordingly on an ongoing basis as judgements come down from the ECJ.  Not exactly what _Leavers_ might have hoped for I suggest.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			So Tony Blair has crawled out from where ever and said that the remainers are the insurgents now and must do all they can to make sure that the UK remains in Europe. An odious man indeed.
This country's democracy is based upon one man one vote. The people have spoken. I wish him, Corbyn and Sturgeon would be cast in a lifeboat in the middle of the ocean.
		
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What is odious about what he said - in fact did you listen to the interview on R4 Today prog this morning - I did.  I suspect not as he was 100% clear, and repeatedly so, that Brexit was a done deal - the UK is leaving the EU.  But also that it is incumbent upon we Remainers to try and ensure the best possible leaving arrangements - and that these arrangements should not be driven by hard-line determinants that were not stated explicitly by _Leave_ for the vote.

And your grasp of democracy isn't that great if you would deny Corbyn, Sturgeon and Blair a vote.


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## Paperboy (Oct 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And your grasp of democracy isn't that great if you would deny Corbyn, Sturgeon and Blair a vote.
		
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Lol, he's not denying them a vote, he just wishes them to be adrift in a big ocean


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## chrisd (Oct 28, 2016)

Paperboy said:



			Lol, he's not denying them a vote, he just wishes them to be adrift in a big ocean 

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Give them a postal vote by all means!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Oct 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And your grasp of democracy isn't that great if you would deny Corbyn, Sturgeon and Blair a vote.
		
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Sturgeon is a great example of democracy.......just keep banging on and on until she gets the result *she* wants


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## Tashyboy (Oct 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What is odious about what he said - in fact did you listen to the interview on R4 Today prog this morning - I did.  I suspect not as he was 100% clear, and repeatedly so, that Brexit was a done deal - the UK is leaving the EU.  But also that it is incumbent upon we Remainers to try and ensure the best possible leaving arrangements - and that these arrangements should not be driven by hard-line determinants that were not stated explicitly by _Leave_ for the vote.

And your grasp of democracy isn't that great if you would deny Corbyn, Sturgeon and Blair a vote.
		
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So Tony wants the remainers to get the best deal for Brexit. Well al take a chance at being proven thick but, am sure the government don't want to negotiate the worst leaving deal. Thanks for that advice Tony. 
PS, I did not say he was odious for what he said I think he is an odious man for events he presided over. It is a personal view, one in which people share and one in which some don't. I suspect the same people that like him also have a poster of Corbyn on there bedroom wall.


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## Foxholer (Oct 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not necessarily so, as it is likely that anything that we produce or provide to the EU will have to comply with the rulings of the ECJ that impact products and services etc.   And any UK regulations to assure compliance with EU standards that we build into UK law in this respect, will have to be reviewed and amended accordingly on an ongoing basis as judgements come down from the ECJ.  Not exactly what _Leavers_ might have hoped for I suggest.
		
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Indeed, I tried to include that aspect in my post, but couldn't find a satisfactory set of words! So 'virtually' or 'largely' irrelevant... would probably have been more appropriate. As for the actual involvement of/with the ECJ, that ability to appeal to it on trade-related matters would have to be built into the deal! 

However, part of the 'cost' of leaving the EU is/will be losing any say in the actual formation of Regulations (Laws) and Directives (Orders for Member States to create covering Laws). So, except for the ability to appeal to the ECJ on the basis that an action by a member state actually broke a Regulation, or that a Directive was not followed, UK would have no say about against anything an EU member state - or indeed the EU itself - actually does! Any change to how EU licenses Banks, quotas for Fishing or standards for products, for example, would simply have to be accepted - unless some mechanism is built into the 'Brexit deal'! The establishment of what to include in the 'Deal' is what is going to take the most effort!


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## delc (Oct 28, 2016)

vkurup said:



			Its good news on Nissan.  It was interesting to see the Tory fella squirm in his seat saying 'no-cheque book' on QT.  Irrespective of the fact that cheque book or not, I am happy to see the Govt do something positive rather than dragging everyone down with 'no running commentary'.  A few more Nissan deals and it will do wonders to confidence and there are plenty of opportunities for the govt to do - Westland, Banks, Siemens, Steel etc.  Get some more marquee clients in and not just in London and we will all be smiling.  Beyond the big boys, the govt should look at SME business which form the backbone of this country.  Why dont we look at cutting corp tax for SME or VAT passthrus.  They need something to counter balance the fall in the pound, give them the right stimulus. The GBP is likely to fall further as we get closer to the self inflicted March deadline, so lets see something in the Autumn statement that can help... 
.
		
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Quite a few foreign owned car companies still to go!  Apparently the Vauxhall plant in Luton may be under threat of closure if we leave the EU.


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## Foxholer (Oct 28, 2016)

delc said:



			Quite a few foreign owned car companies still to go!  Apparently the Vauxhall plant in Luton may be under threat of closure if we leave the EU.  

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Or even if we don't!

It, or many of the jobs there, has/have been 'under threat' several times in the past!


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## delc (Oct 28, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed, I tried to include that aspect in my post, but couldn't find a satisfactory set of words! So 'virtually' or 'largely' irrelevant... would probably have been more appropriate. As for the actual involvement of/with the ECJ, that ability to appeal to it on trade-related matters would have to be built into the deal! 

However, part of the 'cost' of leaving the EU is/will be losing any say in the actual formation of Regulations (Laws) and Directives (Orders for Member States to create covering Laws). So, except for the ability to appeal to the ECJ on the basis that an action by a member state actually broke a Regulation, or that a Directive was not followed, UK would have no say about against anything an EU member state - or indeed the EU itself - actually does! Any change to how EU licenses Banks, quotas for Fishing or standards for products, for example, would simply have to be accepted - unless some mechanism is built into the 'Brexit deal'! The establishment of what to include in the 'Deal' is what is going to take the most effort!
		
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The best Brexit deal is probably not to Brexit at all!  That way we keep our representation in EU affairs.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 28, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not necessarily so, as it is likely that anything that we produce or provide to the EU will have to comply with the rulings of the ECJ that impact products and services etc.   And any UK regulations to assure compliance with EU standards that we build into UK law in this respect, will have to be reviewed and amended accordingly on an ongoing basis as judgements come down from the ECJ.  Not exactly what _Leavers_ might have hoped for I suggest.
		
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Surely that's the same for China, Japan, USA and every other country, it wouldn't be a special punishment for the UK  It's no different than the way we already trade with countries like the USA.


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## Foxholer (Oct 28, 2016)

delc said:



			The best Brexit deal is probably not to Brexit at all!  That way we keep our representation in EU affairs.  

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Tough! That question was put at the Referendum and Brexit was the result!

To do anything else would be like cheating at Golf! Not all that difficult to do, but completely immoral!


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## delc (Oct 28, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Tough! That question was put at the Referendum and Brexit was the result!

To do anything else would be like cheating at Golf! Not all that difficult to do, but completely immoral!
		
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But on the day of the referendum did people realise that the Pound would collapse and all the other difficulties involved in Brexiting? The Leave campaign assured us that everything would go smoothly and other countries would be queuing up to sign trade deals with us: The reality is somewhat different to that! Would we still get the same result if the referendum was re-run today?


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## Foxholer (Oct 28, 2016)

delc said:



			But on the day of the referendum did people realise that the Pound would collapse and all the other difficulties involved in Brexiting? Would we still get the same result if the referendum was re-run today?
		
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It matters not a jot!

If the Remain campaign didn't get its message across well enough, that was their fault!

Now suck it up, just as you need to if an election doesn't go 'the right way' for you! That's Democracy!


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## delc (Oct 28, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			It matters not a jot!

If the Remain campaign didn't get its message across well enough, that was their fault!

Now suck it up, just as you need to if an election doesn't go 'the right way' for you! That's Democracy!
		
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It matters quite a lot in my opinion! Should we let the UK go down to tubes just to keep a load of racists, bigots and xenophobes happy? I realise that not all Leave voters are like this, but a significant number of them are.


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## Foxholer (Oct 28, 2016)

delc said:



			It matters quite a lot in my opinion! Should we let the UK go down to tubes just to keep a load of racists, bigots and xenophobes happy? I realise that not all Leave voters are like this, but a significant number of them are.
		
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That won't be the reason why UK goes down the tubes! Plenty of folk thought UK was going down the tubes BECAUSE it was in the EU!

Brexit WILL (AND MUST!) HAPPEN! 

And btw. I voted Remain!

If you can't accept the result, your qualifications for being a UK citizen are highly questionable!

Edit. Perhaps I should congratulate you on being a typical whingeing Pom!


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## Pathetic Shark (Oct 28, 2016)

delc said:



			Should we let the UK go down to tubes just to keep a load of racists, bigots and xenophobes happy? I realise that not all Leave voters are like this, but a significant number of them are.
		
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Should we let the UK allegedly go down the tubes and have another vote just to keep a bunch of Europhiles, moaners and people unable to deal with democracy happy?


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## delc (Oct 28, 2016)

A Brexit removes my rights as an EU citizen, which include freedom of movement, working time directive, health and safety, etc, etc, which I value. It seems to me that the UK has become more prosperous since we joined the EU, and we have done well from keeping the Pound and staying out of the Schengen Agreement, which gives us control of our borders. The only issue is that we haven't policed border control as well as we should have done. Many of our immigrants are from outside the EU.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 28, 2016)

delc said:



			A Brexit removes my rights as an EU citizen, which include freedom of movement, working time directive, health and safety, etc, etc, which I value. It seems to me that the UK has become more prosperous since we joined the EU, and we have done well from keeping the Pound and staying out of the Schengen Agreement, which gives us control of our borders. The only issue is that we haven't policed border control as well as we should have done. Many of our immigrants are from outside the EU.
		
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Working time directive ? Aren't you retired ? 

You are free to move on holiday anywhere 

Why would Health and Safety laws change ? 

Haven't you many times complained about immigration being a problem where you live causing you to have issues when driving ?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 28, 2016)

delc said:



			It matters quite a lot in my opinion! Should we let the UK go down to tubes just to keep a load of racists, bigots and xenophobes happy? I realise that not all Leave voters are like this, but a significant number of them are.
		
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Can I ask where (economically) the UK has gone down the tubes?

Certainly sterling has fallen but many experts are now predicting a gentle but steady upturn. Not too far I hope as it was previously at a level too high for our economic good.

The other indicators are even more positive.

I speak as one who was active and vociferous in the Remain campaign but also someone who, unlike yourself apparently, is mature enough to accept the outcome of the referendum and move on.

Perhaps it is now time for you to do the same.


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## delc (Oct 28, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Can I ask where (economically) the UK has gone down the tubes?

Certainly sterling has fallen but many experts are now predicting a gentle but steady upturn. Not too far I hope as it was previously at a level too high for our economic good.

The other indicators are even more positive.

I speak as one who was active and vociferous in the Remain campaign but also someone who, unlike yourself apparently, is mature enough to accept the outcome of the referendum and move on.

Perhaps it is now time for you to do the same.
		
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Brexit has turned the UK into a nasty xenophobic country, even if you take out the economic factors!  Foreigners working here are being made to feel unwelcome, however necessary their skills are. I am now ashamed of being British, so will continue to campaign against Brexit, if only for that reason.


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## delc (Oct 28, 2016)

IanM said:



			No it hasn't. 

But you can believe the Guardian and BBC if you like
		
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Much more so than the Mail, Express and Sun!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 28, 2016)

delc said:



			Brexit has turned the UK into a nasty xenophobic country, even if you take out the economic factors!  Foreigners working here are being made to feel unwelcome, however necessary their skills are. I am now ashamed of being British, so will continue to campaign against Brexit, if only for that reason.
		
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Have you experienced or even witnessed this xenophobia, have you met any of these foreigners that are now being made to feel unwelcome?

Or is it anecdotal and hearsay?

Obviously there are some very unpleasant people out there shouting racist abuse and, worse still, committing physical attacks but these existed both here and throughout the EU long before the referendum. 

Unlike yourself I draw no distinction between EU & non-EU immigrants. All should be treated with compassion, justice and never should be told they are not welcome. However, nationalism exists throughout the world and is not a by-product of Brexit.

As for campaigning against Brexit, feel free Canute!


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## IanM (Oct 28, 2016)

And I say that as one with Polish Grandparents on one side and Lithuanian grandfather on other.

...and I prefer elected political leaders to appointed ones too!


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## delc (Oct 28, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Have you experienced or even witnessed this xenophobia, have you met any of these foreigners that are now being made to feel unwelcome?

Or is it anecdotal and hearsay?

Obviously there are some very unpleasant people out there shouting racist abuse and, worse still, committing physical attacks but these existed both here and throughout the EU long before the referendum. 

Unlike yourself I draw no distinction between EU & non-EU immigrants. All should be treated with compassion, justice and never should be told they are not welcome. However, nationalism exists throughout the world and is not a by-product of Brexit.

As for campaigning against Brexit, feel free Canute!
		
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Did you watch Question Time from Hartlepool?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 28, 2016)

delc said:



			Did you watch Question Time from Hartlepool?  

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For God's sake when has a QT audience ever been representative of the nation as a whole and, in any event, much of the reaction to the Polish woman was at her suggestion that she was no longer welcome rather than due to her nationality.


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## delc (Oct 28, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			For God's sake when has a QT audience ever been representative of the nation as a whole and, in any event, much of the reaction to the Polish woman was at her suggestion that she was no longer welcome rather than due to her nationality.
		
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Not the impression I got!  Also this:
https://www.ft.com/content/84a8b21e-9c32-11e6-8324-be63473ce146


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 28, 2016)

delc said:



			Brexit has turned the UK into a nasty xenophobic country, even if you take out the economic factors!  Foreigners working here are being made to feel unwelcome, however necessary their skills are. I am now ashamed of being British, so will continue to campaign against Brexit, if only for that reason.
		
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Really? We are still regularly employing nurses from Spain, Ireland and Portugal, healthcare assistants and cleaners from Poland and Bulgaria amongst others and have just taken on radiographers from Sweden, Italy and France. They clearly don't feel put off by Brexit or that Reading is a dangerous and xenophobic place to live and work. Pure rubbish


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 28, 2016)

delc said:



			Not the impression I got!  Also this:
https://www.ft.com/content/84a8b21e-9c32-11e6-8324-be63473ce146

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Strange link to post as by far the largest numbers have no plans to leave (43%) or have not yet made any decision (38%).

In any event many of those who have come to this country from elsewhere within the EU have always intended that their stay should be neither permanent nor long-term.

I continue to struggle to understand where you are coming from in view of your infamous previous disparaging remarks about immigrants and their effect upon your journey time to your Club. Or is your fire only aimed at those from outside the EU?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 28, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Really? We are still regularly employing nurses from Spain, Ireland and Portugal, healthcare assistants and cleaners from Poland and Bulgaria amongst others and have just taken on radiographers from Sweden, Italy and France. They clearly don't feel put off by Brexit or that Reading is a dangerous and xenophobic place to live and work. Pure rubbish
		
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Careful Homer you are basing your argument upon actual experience and we all know that is no substitute for assumption.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 28, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Careful Homer you are basing your argument upon actual experience and we all know that is no substitute for assumption.

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Very true, or the use of the internet to support whatever point you wish to make. How silly of me to use actual evidence


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## delc (Oct 28, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Strange link to post as by far the largest numbers have no plans to leave (43%) or have not yet made any decision (38%).

In any event many of those who have come to this country from elsewhere within the EU have always intended that their stay should be neither permanent nor long-term.

I continue to struggle to understand where you are coming from in view of your infamous previous disparaging remarks about immigrants and their effect upon your journey time to your Club. Or is your fire only aimed at those from outside the EU?
		
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I was more concerned about the strain on our resources, rather than the immigrants themselves. It often really does take 45 minutes to do the 3 miles to my golf club if it is anywhere near the rush hour, and a lot of this traffic seems to be associated with the school run. It was half term this week and there was hardly any traffic at all.


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## Tashyboy (Oct 28, 2016)

delc said:



			Did you watch Question Time from Hartlepool?  

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Delc I watched that clip on the BBC site and when she mentioned that because the UK voted to leave she no longer felt wanted, my initial thoughts were she would be ideal on this forum. Not listening to what people have said and listening to what they want to hear.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 28, 2016)

delc said:



			I was more concerned about the strain on our resources, rather than the immigrants themselves. It often really does take 45 minutes to do the 3 miles to my golf club if it is anywhere near the rush hour, and a lot of this traffic seems to be associated with the school run. It was half term this week and there was hardly any traffic at all.
		
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So how have we gone from xenophobia to moaning about the traffic on the school run. What does that have to do with Brexit. It's all about mummy pandering to little Johnny and not walking them to school when it's easier to jump into a huge 4x4 and drive two minutes up the road. I fail to see the connection?


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## delc (Oct 28, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			So how have we gone from xenophobia to moaning about the traffic on the school run. What does that have to do with Brexit. It's all about mummy pandering to little Johnny and not walking them to school when it's easier to jump into a huge 4x4 and drive two minutes up the road. I fail to see the connection?
		
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I think around here many children go to schools that are more than a few minutes walk from home. This is down to a shortage of school places and parental choice.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 28, 2016)

delc said:



			I was more concerned about the strain on our resources, rather than the immigrants themselves. It often really does take 45 minutes to do the 3 miles to my golf club if it is anywhere near the rush hour, and a lot of this traffic seems to be associated with the school run. It was half term this week and there was hardly any traffic at all.
		
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At risk of bringing personal experience and fact (and potentially common sense) into the debate so soon again, I'd point out to delc that we wouldn't have some of these resources without the immigrants who keep them going.  I had life saving heart surgery earlier this year delc; the vast majority of those in theatre at the time, and involved in my aftercare, were immigrants, and I am extremely grateful to them for the treatment and care I received, which was beyond reproach.  

To be honest, amongst the English unemployed, or unemployable in a large number of cases, that I have met, both personally but largely professionally, I can't think of too many that were of sufficient calibre to have replaced the immigrants that saved me.  So before you run them all down as a drain on our society, consider what the state of some of our resources would be like without the valuable contribution they make.  

I have no desire to see all immigrants banned, just a desire to be able to welcome those who will make a valuable contribution to our society and politely decline admission to those who will not make a contribution or who seek to undermine it.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 28, 2016)

Why waste any more time on Delc's comments.  They are inconsistent and unintelligent, best to let him exist in his own little confused world.  At least DFT is a Troll and is trying to wind people up.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 28, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Why waste any more time on Delc's comments.  They are inconsistent and unintelligent, best to let him exist in his own little confused world.  At least DFT is a Troll and is trying to wind people up.
		
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Some might say that it takes one to know one


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## MegaSteve (Oct 28, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Really? We are still regularly employing nurses from Spain, Ireland and Portugal, healthcare assistants and cleaners from Poland and Bulgaria amongst others and have just taken on radiographers from Sweden, Italy and France. They clearly don't feel put off by Brexit or that Reading is a dangerous and xenophobic place to live and work. Pure rubbish
		
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One gets the impression the NHS would rather employ qualified folk from overseas rather than invest in training programs...


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## SocketRocket (Oct 29, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Some might say that it takes one to know one 

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Exactly


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## SocketRocket (Oct 29, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			One gets the impression the NHS would rather employ qualified folk from overseas rather than invest in training programs...
		
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The Government have made a commitment to train more Doctors.  I think it's a disgrace that we run the NHS on a basis that relies on us poaching doctors, Nurses etc from other countries that have paid to train them and in many cases much poorer countries than ourselves. Shame on us, lets get real and fund the training of or own medical professionals.


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## delc (Oct 29, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			At risk of bringing personal experience and fact (and potentially common sense) into the debate so soon again, I'd point out to delc that we wouldn't have some of these resources without the immigrants who keep them going.  I had life saving heart surgery earlier this year delc; the vast majority of those in theatre at the time, and involved in my aftercare, were immigrants, and I am extremely grateful to them for the treatment and care I received, which was beyond reproach.  

To be honest, amongst the English unemployed, or unemployable in a large number of cases, that I have met, both personally but largely professionally, I can't think of too many that were of sufficient calibre to have replaced the immigrants that saved me.  So before you run them all down as a drain on our society, consider what the state of some of our resources would be like without the valuable contribution they make.  

I have no desire to see all immigrants banned, just a desire to be able to welcome those who will make a valuable contribution to our society and politely decline admission to those who will not make a contribution or who seek to undermine it.
		
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I am not disagreeing with you, but nevertheless our area has suffered a large increase in population, partly due to immigrants and their children, but without comensurate increases in roads, schools and hospitals. The traffic is much much worse than it was only 5 or 6 years ago!


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## Old Skier (Oct 29, 2016)

delc said:



			but a significant number of them are.
		
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And I know a significant who arnt so perhaps you should keep your un-democratic federalist views locked up in the locker or stop knocking about with racists and bigots.


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## delc (Oct 29, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			And I know a significant who arnt so perhaps you should keep your un-democratic federalist views locked up in the locker or stop knocking about with racists and bigots.
		
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I shouldn't think that you get too many immigrants coming to North Devon!


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## Old Skier (Oct 29, 2016)

delc said:



			I shouldn't think that you get too many immigrants coming to North Devon!
		
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Obviously not one for keeping abreast of the news.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 29, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			One gets the impression the NHS would rather employ qualified folk from overseas rather than invest in training programs...
		
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I sense a fishing trip but what the heck! The bottom line is there simply isn't the numbers of trained staff nurses, midwives, and radiographers (and many other specialities on top of that) either coming out of full time training or experienced nursing staff looking to move roles. That's not just happening at my trust, but up and down the country at I would suggest close to 99% of all hospitals (hence huge agency spend). That is simple fact. Those coming from overseas, especially Portugal Ireland and Spain, got through training programmes acceptable to the NMC to be comparable to what UK students go through, and if not the nurse has to go through and ONP (overseas nursing programme) to get the necessary competencies. 

We also need a huge number of healthcare assistant, cleaners etc and these simply seem to attract a bigger number of European applicants already over here and living locally. Again that is simple economics and sadly they seem far more motivated to take these lower paid roles. 

We as a trust are workinghard to improve our retention schemes including golden handshakes for some departments and have a robust learning and development programme in place. It's an NHS wide issue and unless government decide to reinvest the money required to get the NHS to a place capable of coping with the demands of a modern, ageing and unwell population then nothing will change. That sadly is a whole other thread that will have political ramifications and one I'm reticent to get involved in


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## SocketRocket (Oct 29, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I sense a fishing trip but what the heck! The bottom line is there simply isn't the numbers of trained staff nurses, midwives, and radiographers (and many other specialities on top of that) either coming out of full time training or experienced nursing staff looking to move roles. That's not just happening at my trust, but up and down the country at I would suggest close to 99% of all hospitals (hence huge agency spend). That is simple fact. Those coming from overseas, especially Portugal Ireland and Spain, got through training programmes acceptable to the NMC to be comparable to what UK students go through, and if not the nurse has to go through and ONP (overseas nursing programme) to get the necessary competencies. 

We also need a huge number of healthcare assistant, cleaners etc and these simply seem to attract a bigger number of European applicants already over here and living locally. Again that is simple economics and sadly they seem far more motivated to take these lower paid roles. 

We as a trust are workinghard to improve our retention schemes including golden handshakes for some departments and have a robust learning and development programme in place. It's an NHS wide issue and unless government decide to reinvest the money required to get the NHS to a place capable of coping with the demands of a modern, ageing and unwell population then nothing will change. That sadly is a whole other thread that will have political ramifications *and one I'm reticent to get involved in*

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You just did!

No amount of stating the current situation makes the policy of stealing NHS staff from poorer countries correct.   We need to step up to the plate and invest in training our medical staff just like these other countries do, we should also make people who leave for private/overseas jobs withing 5 years of training pay the training costs back.   Seems like the government is putting money into training more Doctors which is a step in the right direction.

Whats this 'Golden Handshake'  for?  Surely that would encourage people to leave early.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 29, 2016)

delc said:



			I am not disagreeing with you, but nevertheless *our area has suffered a large increase in population, partly due to immigrants and their children*, but without comensurate increases in roads, schools and hospitals. The traffic is much much worse than it was only 5 or 6 years ago!
		
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Maybe that's a symptom of being in your sacred EU.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 29, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			You just did!

No amount of stating the current situation makes the policy of stealing NHS staff from poorer countries correct.   We need to step up to the plate and invest in training our medical staff just like these other countries do, we should also make people who leave for private/overseas jobs withing 5 years of training pay the training costs back.   Seems like the government is putting money into training more Doctors which is a step in the right direction.

Whats this 'Golden Handshake'  for?  Surely that would encourage people to leave early.
		
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The golden handshake comes with a condition that if a person leaves within the three year deadline they have to repay the outstanding money, calculated on a sliding scale by payroll.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 29, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			The golden handshake comes with a condition that if a person leaves within the three year deadline they have to repay the outstanding money, calculated on a sliding scale by payroll.
		
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But what is the Golden Handshake?


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 29, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			But what is the Golden Handshake?
		
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Â£2,000 payable in the first month's salary. Not available for every area in the hospital, just those with R&R issues and biggest agency spend as a result. Also no payable to internal transfers


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## SocketRocket (Oct 29, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Â£2,000 payable in the first month's salary. Not available for every area in the hospital, just those with R&R issues and biggest agency spend as a result. Also no payable to internal transfers
		
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Sorry, not how much but what.  Why is it used.


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## Blue in Munich (Oct 29, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Sorry, not how much but what.  *Why is it used.*

Click to expand...




HomerJSimpson said:



			Â£2,000 payable in the first month's salary. Not available for every area in the hospital, *just those with R&R issues and biggest agency spend as a result. *Also no payable to internal transfers
		
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To encourage permanent staff to hospitals where they have trouble recruiting and retaining staff, and reduce agency spending, as per Homer's reply.


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## Hacker Khan (Oct 30, 2016)

I'm pretty sure Homer made this very important point about 2580 posts ago in the other thread. Giving first hand insight into why the NHS needs foreign workers, including those from the EU , to function . 

Still , I'm sure there are well thought out costed plans to overcome this once we regain our sovereignty and are no longer ruled by faceless bureaucrats from Brussels,  and not just vague pie in the sky unworkable statements.


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## MegaSteve (Oct 30, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'm pretty sure Homer made this very important point about 2580 posts ago in the other thread. Giving first hand insight into why the NHS needs foreign workers, including those from the EU , to function . 

Still , I'm sure there are well thought out costed plans to overcome this once we regain our sovereignty and are no longer ruled by faceless bureaucrats from Brussels,  and not just vague pie in the sky unworkable statements.
		
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If we had stuck with the EU and allowed the faceless ones continue to negotiate tee-tip, on our behalf, our NHS would be Donald Ducked...


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## Foxholer (Oct 30, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			If we had stuck with the EU and allowed the faceless ones continue to negotiate tee-tip, on our behalf, our NHS would be Donald Ducked...
		
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Er...Can you kindly explain why it would be a specific problem for NHS?


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## delc (Oct 30, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Er...Can you kindly explain why it would be a specific problem for NHS?
		
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Because the big American Healthcare Corporations could sue the UK Government for restricting their profits by providing 'free' healthcare, even though we pay for it through taxation.


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## MegaSteve (Oct 30, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Er...Can you kindly explain why it would be a specific problem for NHS?
		
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Er... I'll dodge the bullet on that.... If interested, you'll find plenty on t'internet supporting my view far more eloquently written than I can manage... If you support the other view I am sure you'll find plenty of guff out there also... You might even find something yourself and bestie mate can agree on... Wouldn't be surprised he feels the opposite to myself....


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## delc (Oct 30, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe that's a symptom of being in your sacred EU.
		
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Without trying to sound racist, many of them are not of European appearance!


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## Imurg (Oct 30, 2016)

delc said:



			Without trying to sound racist, many of them are not of European appearance!
		
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Are you actually trying to define "European appearance"..........???
For God's sake, stop digging this bloody hole....


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 30, 2016)

delc said:



			Without trying to sound racist, many of them are not of European appearance!
		
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If that is you trying to not sound racist, Lord help us!


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## delc (Oct 30, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			If that is you trying to not sound racist, Lord help us!
		
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All I am trying to say is not many of them originate from EU countries.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 30, 2016)

delc said:



			All I am trying to say is not many of them originate from EU countries.
		
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And you know that by just looking at them ?!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 30, 2016)

delc said:



			All I am trying to say is not many of them originate from EU countries.
		
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So what?


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## Hobbit (Oct 30, 2016)

Health tourism costs the NHS Â£2 billion. Â£1.5 billion is for EU citizens, and is reciprocated, Â£500 mill is non-EU, of which Â£350 mill is recovered. It's a non-story and not worth arguing over.


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## Old Skier (Oct 30, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Health tourism costs the NHS Â£2 billion. Â£1.5 billion is for EU citizens, and is reciprocated
		
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Not sure it can be classed as reciprocal as countries should claim back from other EU countries when their nationals are treated. Something it appears we are very bad at according to last weeks news.


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## Foxholer (Oct 30, 2016)

delc said:



			Because the big American Healthcare Corporations could sue the UK Government for restricting their profits by providing 'free' healthcare, even though we pay for it through taxation.
		
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They would lose that argument! That's what has been happening for the last 70 years, so they knew that was what was happening when they entered the market! 



MegaSteve said:



			Er... I'll dodge the bullet on that.... If interested, you'll find plenty on t'internet supporting my view far more eloquently written than I can manage... If you support the other view I am sure you'll find plenty of guff out there also... You might even find something yourself and bestie mate can agree on... Wouldn't be surprised he feels the opposite to myself....
		
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Indeed, I know there's an obscene issue with TTIP wrt 'legislation that restricts profits'! That's why I have always been anti the present form of TTIP!

However, my query was why it was *specifically a problem for the NHS*. And that has doesn't seem to have been answered. And yes, I know that many of the drug companies are US based, so are the ones that could/would be affected.

I'd like to see an amended form of ISDS (the dispute process that is the issue) used, so that Government policy is unable to be restricted provide 'proper warning' is given. On the other hand, the likes of drug companies have to be confident that the huge costs of R&D can be recovered - and a *reasonable* profit made!


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 30, 2016)

Slightly OT but is this not a disgrace http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-33055847

20p a packet in the supermarket.


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## Foxholer (Oct 30, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Slightly OT but is this not a disgrace http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-33055847

20p a packet in the supermarket.
		
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H'mm! That's about 1.5p per tablet. It's quite possible that NHS cost is less than that!

Another case of Lies, damned lies and Statistics!


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## larmen (Oct 30, 2016)

Hacker Khan said:



			Still , I'm sure there are well thought out costed plans to overcome this once we regain our sovereignty and are no longer ruled by faceless bureaucrats from Brussels,  and not just vague pie in the sky unworkable statements.
		
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With Â£350,000,000 a week extra, I am sure the NHS will be awesome. It will be aspirational to be sick.


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## Foxholer (Oct 30, 2016)

larmen said:



			With Â£350,000,000 a week extra, I am sure the NHS will be awesome. It will be aspirational to be sick.
		
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That was a 'slogan for the gullible'!


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## MegaSteve (Oct 30, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			They would lose that argument! That's what has been happening for the last 70 years, so they knew that was what was happening when they entered the market! 



Indeed, I know there's an obscene issue with TTIP wrt 'legislation that restricts profits'! That's why I have always been anti the present form of TTIP!

However, my query was why it was *specifically a problem for the NHS*. And that has doesn't seem to have been answered. And yes, I know that many of the drug companies are US based, so are the ones that could/would be affected.

I'd like to see an amended form of ISDS (the dispute process that is the issue) used, so that Government policy is unable to be restricted provide 'proper warning' is given. On the other hand, the likes of drug companies have to be confident that the huge costs of R&D can be recovered - and a *reasonable* profit made!
		
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The talks are being held behind closed doors which usually spells troubles ahead... Heard it said the US team make Donald appear to be a decent sort... Also heard, it said, davecam [and cronies] favoured remain as it would have given them their desired privatisation of the NHS and been able to lay the blame with the 'faceless ones' [in Brussels]...

Not intending to get in a bun fight over this... As I said earlier, plenty on the t'internet... Up to each individual what they wish to believe...


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## Foxholer (Oct 30, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			The talks are being held behind closed doors which usually spells troubles ahead... Heard it said the US team make Donald appear to be a decent sort... Also heard, it said, davecam [and cronies] favoured remain as it would have given them their desired privatisation of the NHS and been able to lay the blame with the 'faceless ones' [in Brussels]...

Not intending to get in a bun fight over this... As I said earlier, plenty on the t'internet... Up to each individual what they wish to believe...
		
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My major objection to 'secret talks' is that they breed rumours of what *might* be being discussed/agreed at a similar, or greater, rate to conspiracy theories!

And, unlike conspiracy theories, they can be used to manufacture an entire argument to promote a particular cause. Conspiracy theories actually require more 'facts', even if possibly unrelated, before drawing a conclusion!

There are often considerable justification - normally ones relating to 'competition' for conducting trade talks behind closed doors!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 30, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			The talks are being held behind closed doors which usually spells troubles ahead... Heard it said the US team make Donald appear to be a decent sort... Also heard, it said, davecam [and cronies] favoured remain as it would have given them their desired privatisation of the NHS and been able to lay the blame with the 'faceless ones' [in Brussels]...

Not intending to get in a bun fight over this... As I said earlier, plenty on the t'internet... Up to each individual what they wish to believe...
		
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One problem with that theory is that leaving the rhetoric of the Left to one side Cameron never had any wish to privatise the NHS.

Allowing some services to be provided by the Private Sector is in no way similar to privatisation provided the service remains free at source to its users.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 30, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			That was a 'slogan for the gullible'!
		
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It was the only concrete thing that those inclined on the _Leave_ side had to hang their hat on.  After all - why didn't the _Leave_ campaign put out a 'manifesto' - pretty obvious - despite their claims of poverty it was simply that they couldn't agree on one - there being so many different and conflicting aspirations for _Leave_.  They knew that it would certainly be a case of 'publish and be damned'.  And so it is today - nobody has a clue - and all we get is _Breakfast will be Breakfast_; and he UK has voted to leave the EU so all you remoaners can shut up.  

Well maybe we will be quiet for a while once the objectives for Brexit are published and we have time to mull over them.  Meanwhile we are stuck with Leavers rejecting the Â£350m idea as a misinterpretation - except for Farage who now acknowledges it was a _bit of a mistake_ (hahahaha - alomst funny that) to present it as they did - and Leave should have been clearer in correcting misconceptions being formed about it.  Oh Nigel - you are a hoot, a bit of a mistake.  Honest to God.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 30, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Slightly OT but is this not a disgrace http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-33055847

20p a packet in the supermarket.
		
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Maybe in Scotland where you get English subsidised NHS medication but we have to pay Â£8:40 per item.


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## Foxholer (Oct 30, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe in Scotland where you get English subsidised NHS medication but we have to pay Â£8:40 per item.
		
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Er...How much do YOU have to pay for prescriptions?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 30, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It was the only concrete thing that those inclined on the _Leave_ side had to hang their hat on.  After all - why didn't the _Leave_ campaign put out a 'manifesto' - pretty obvious - despite their claims of poverty it was simply that they couldn't agree on one - there being so many different and conflicting aspirations for _Leave_.  They knew that it would certainly be a case of 'publish and be damned'.  And so it is today - nobody has a clue - and all we get is _Breakfast will be Breakfast_; and he UK has voted to leave the EU so all you remoaners can shut up.  

Well maybe we will be quiet for a while once the objectives for Brexit are published and we have time to mull over them.  Meanwhile we are stuck with Leavers rejecting the Â£350m idea as a misinterpretation - except for Farage who now acknowledges it was a _bit of a mistake_ (hahahaha - alomst funny that) to present it as they did - and Leave should have been clearer in correcting misconceptions being formed about it.  Oh Nigel - you are a hoot, a bit of a mistake.  Honest to God.
		
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That's a rather biased and typical diatribe of your venom fueled Anti-Brexit bias.

The Â£350 million was a Gross sum and indeed misleading but it was not said that the saving would all go to the NHS but could be spent on projects like the NHS.  It's obvious that much of it would be needed for research, Farming etc but you make of it what you want if it satisfies carrying your huge chip. You fail to mention any of the exaggerated claims from the Remain camp though.

Regarding a manifesto.  Leave never had the Government machine to do this so how on earth did you expect them to have the resources and money.  The Government should have created a plan 'B' for Brexit, they didn't do it as they were a blind as you to the will of the majority. 

Your comments are disingenuous and come over as if made from someone bitter and twisted because they never got their own way.   Get over it man and move on for crying out load!


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## Foxholer (Oct 30, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			That's a rather biased and typical diatribe of your venom fueled Anti-Brexit bias.
...
		
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If anything was 'rather biased and typical diatribe' it was the 350M/week slogan!

Neither side had anything like a manifesto! It wasn't the sort of issue where a manifesto was/is appropriate! It was all about aspirations and attitudes (put mildly) or bias and bigotry (put rather less mildly)!

SILH has actually accepted the result - as have almost all, including May! It's now up to those doing the planning to actually get the decision implemented to actually perform! There is nothing wrong with holding them to account, but the must be given time to do the planning - and it's up to their masters (aka May) to be responsible for providing key milestones, to chivvy their underlings along where required and to handle any questions so they can get on with the job!

I agree that it is getting boring hearing the same 'nobody is telling us any plans' though!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 30, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			That's a rather biased and typical diatribe of your venom fueled Anti-Brexit bias.

The Â£350 million was a Gross sum and indeed misleading but it was not said that the saving would all go to the NHS but could be spent on projects like the NHS.  It's obvious that much of it would be needed for research, Farming etc but you make of it what you want if it satisfies carrying your huge chip. You fail to mention any of the exaggerated claims from the Remain camp though.

Regarding a manifesto.  Leave never had the Government machine to do this so how on earth did you expect them to have the resources and money.  The Government should have created a plan 'B' for Brexit, they didn't do it as they were a blind as you to the will of the majority. 

Your comments are disingenuous and come over as if made from someone bitter and twisted because they never got their own way.   Get over it man and move on for crying out load!
		
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Your complaining about me expressing concerns is tedious and as usual attempting to divert valid questions because you have no answers.  Saying that _Leave _had no money is itself totally disingenuous - it does not take much money for a coordinated group to pull together a statement of what leaving the EU would mean.  This did not need publishing for distribution around every household - simply getting it published in the newspapers and explained on TV would have done the job.  But no - nothing.  Which is hardly surprising as Leave could not even organise themselves into a single grouping - disparate individuals having different ideas of when Brexit meant.

And as is usual for Brexiteers, you pretend that 'everybody knew' what the Â£350m/week was.  Well yes - everyone leading the campaign knew - but they miserably failed to make clear what they were talking about - and as Farage said - did not correct misconceptions in the public mind - and theyt did not because it suited the _Leave _campaign, and then pretend afterwards that 'everyone knew' - QED.

And of Remain exaggerations - or rather - taking upper limits of estimates and predictions - not the same as deliberately misrepresenting facts.

As Foxholder said.  I have accepted we are leaving, I have not accepted we leave with arrangements that I believe will harm the country and the life-chances of my children, grandchildren and many, many others.


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## delc (Oct 31, 2016)

The problem I see with Brexit is that the Remain side, backed by David Cameron & Co, didn't expect to lose, and the Leave side didn't expect to win. Therefore neither side prepared any plans as to what to do in the event of a pro Brexit vote. However the Leave campaign engaged a few charismatic politicians such as Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson, and came up with a few catchy slogans such as 'Take back control' whatever that was supposed to mean. By contrast the Remain team could only come up with the rather turgid 'project fear', without promoting the positive sides of being a member of the EU. Also Jeremy Ciorbyn's rather lukewarm support of the EU didn't exactly help. Neither did the entirely anti-EU rhetoric in the tabloid gutter press. So somehow the Leave side managed to win and now we are where we are, almost in a state of limbo!


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## Hobbit (Oct 31, 2016)

I see that the Gov of the BoE may be announcing his resignation as soon as Thursday amid claims he is sorely embarrassed to get his dire predictions of gloom and despair so badly wrong. GDP up 0.5% and shares at their highest for years. 

Also, the head of the WTO is predicting good things for the UK economy as it will no longer be called to support failing banks that are tied to the Euro. He recommends a quick exit, before the Deutche bank needs bailing out.


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 31, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I see that the Gov of the BoE may be announcing his resignation as soon as Thursday amid claims he is sorely embarrassed to get his dire predictions of gloom and despair so badly wrong. GDP up 0.5% and shares at their highest for years. 

Also, the head of the WTO is predicting good things for the UK economy as it will no longer be called to support failing banks that are tied to the Euro. He recommends a quick exit, before the Deutche bank needs bailing out.
		
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Funny, even as I read this the radio news is telling me he plans to stay longer than his original intentions.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 31, 2016)

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7c336b32-9ee0-11e6-aca7-d9d4fe48eef4

Great news for the countries within the UK who have car manufacturing plants.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Funny, even as I read this the radio news is telling me he plans to stay longer than his original intentions.
		
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That's what I'm hearing - his original plan was to serve a 5yr term 2013-2018 - but he's decided to take the full 8yr term - to 2021.  Maybe because he knows exactly what was said by individuals in the lead up to the vote?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 31, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Your complaining about me expressing concerns is tedious and as usual attempting to divert valid questions because you have no answers.  Saying that _Leave _had no money is itself totally disingenuous - it does not take much money for a coordinated group to pull together a statement of what leaving the EU would mean.  This did not need publishing for distribution around every household - simply getting it published in the newspapers and explained on TV would have done the job.  But no - nothing.  Which is hardly surprising as Leave could not even organise themselves into a single grouping - disparate individuals having different ideas of when Brexit meant.

And as is usual for Brexiteers, you pretend that 'everybody knew' what the Â£350m/week was.  Well yes - everyone leading the campaign knew - but they miserably failed to make clear what they were talking about - and as Farage said - did not correct misconceptions in the public mind - and theyt did not because it suited the _Leave _campaign, and then pretend afterwards that 'everyone knew' - QED.

And of Remain exaggerations - or rather - taking upper limits of estimates and predictions - not the same as deliberately misrepresenting facts.

As Foxholder said.  I have accepted we are leaving, I have not accepted we leave with arrangements that I believe will harm the country and the life-chances of my children, grandchildren and many, many others.
		
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Foxholer also said " agree that it is getting boring hearing the same 'nobody is telling us any plans' though!"

Your memory seems a bit lacking on the information 'Leave' gave out, you make it sound like they gave no ideas of what we may gain from Brexit.  Take a look at this for example:                        
http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html

So the hogwash Osborne and his mates gave out were not misinterpreting the facts 
Get your blinkers off and stop the perpetual moaning and repetition of the same old hackneyed diatribe.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7c336b32-9ee0-11e6-aca7-d9d4fe48eef4

Great news for the countries within the UK who have car manufacturing plants.
		
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Hoof on policy the?

Good news...unless he is slapped down by the PM and we get retractions today


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Foxholer also said " agree that it is getting boring hearing the same 'nobody is telling us any plans' though!"

Your memory seems a bit lacking on the information 'Leave' gave out, you make it sound like they gave no ideas of what we may gain from Brexit.  Take a look at this for example:                        
http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/why_vote_leave.html

So the hogwash Osborne and his mates gave out were not misinterpreting the facts 
Get your blinkers off and stop the perpetual moaning and repetition of the same old hackneyed diatribe.
		
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I'll continue to ask questions if I want - _Brexit means Brexit_ -now that's hackneyed...

And you honestly think that that link gives us anything other than slogans,  and it repeats the Â£350m/week lie - and Turkey about to join...


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## Foxholer (Oct 31, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Foxholer also said " agree that it is getting boring hearing the same '*nobody is telling us any plans*' though!"
		
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Of course, that could be easily fixed! 

Even the dreaded 'management speak' plan-for-a-plan timetable would be helpful!


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## MegaSteve (Oct 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7c336b32-9ee0-11e6-aca7-d9d4fe48eef4

Great news for the countries within the UK who have car manufacturing plants.
		
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............


It could actually be good news for all of the UK as part of the deal is that manufacturers should seek to use more UK sourced 'items'... Tyres, batteries, exhausts etc come to mind... ie 'stuff' it doesn't make in house....


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## Foxholer (Oct 31, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			............


It could actually be good news for all of the UK as part of the deal is that manufacturers should seek to use more UK sourced 'items'... Tyres, batteries, exhausts etc come to mind... ie 'stuff' it doesn't make in house....
		
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That's why it's SO important to continue to have a solid car manufacturing industry! The associated supply chain is extremely important to maintain and grow - and preferable 're-shore', something the falling pound actually helps!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Of course, that could be easily fixed! 

Even the dreaded 'management speak' plan-for-a-plan timetable would be helpful!
		
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Glad you asked for that as I'd be accused of moaning and asking the same boring questions.  I get the feeling that anything that a _Remainer_ asks is willfully misinterpreted as a moan.  When in fact all that I, for instance, ask are questions and I make observations.  

And so my observation on the _voteleavetakecontrol _website is that it presents the top level aspirations of (one of?) the groups advocating _Leave_.  Not necessarily the aspirations of _Leave_ but those of one of the groups - because there was more than one group and they didn't seem to be able to find sufficient common ground or agreement on key message or aspirational objectives to enable them to join up.  And no detail about how they will intend achieve these aspirations and the impact achieving them will have.  Though the aspirations presented are general enough and not in any way prioritised thereby covering all Leave groups.

I will also note that there is nothing I can find that mentions leaving the single market.  Though it does tell us on 'Our Money Our Priorities' that (and I quote) 




			The EU costs us over Â£350 million a week - Enough to build a brand new, fully-staffed NHS Hospital _*every week*_

Click to expand...

Now the above are observations - not moans.  (and the bolding of 'every week' is not mine but the websites)


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## Hobbit (Oct 31, 2016)

FairwayDodger said:



			Funny, even as I read this the radio news is telling me he plans to stay longer than his original intentions.
		
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It appears to depend on which (respected) broadsheet you read.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 31, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not necessarily the aspirations of _Leave_ but those of one of the groups - because there was more than one group and they didn't seem to be able to find sufficient common ground or agreement on key message or aspirational objectives to enable them to join up.  And no detail about how they will intend achieve these aspirations and the impact achieving them will have.  Though the aspirations presented are general enough and not in any way prioritised thereby covering all Leave groups
		
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I am afraid that was just as big a problem for those in the Remain campaign. We thought the Labour Party front bench was in favour  but their leader certainly was not "singing from the same hymn sheet" as the rest of us.

The whole referendum campaign was ultimately characterised by the paucity of the arguments presented by either side.

Those on the ground for Remain received no support from those at the top in the form of policies or clear arguments to present as to why we would be better remaining within the EU.

Project Fear was not something with which I was comfortable.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 31, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Er...How much do YOU have to pay for prescriptions?
		
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Whats that got to do with it  
Just do one!


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## Foxholer (Oct 31, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe in Scotland where you get English subsidised NHS medication *but we have to pay Â£8:40 per item*.
		
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Foxholer said:



			Er...How much do YOU have to pay for prescriptions?
		
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SocketRocket said:



*Whats that got to do with it*  
Just do one!
		
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Well there's certainly a significant number of folk - of which I believe you to be one (I am) - in England who also *don't have to pay anything for prescriptions*.

And can you elaborate what the 'one' is that you wish me to do?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Well there's certainly a significant number of folk - of which I believe you to be one (I am) - in England who also *don't have to pay anything for prescriptions*.

And can you elaborate what the 'one' is that you wish me to do? 

Click to expand...


Kings Fund 2014

http://www.pharmaceutical-journal.c...year-for-nhs-says-think-tank/20066348.article

_Some 1 billion prescriptions are dispensed annually in England, with around Â£450m raised from prescription charges in 2012â€“2013. The think tank notes that while 40% of the population are liable to pay the prescription charge, in practice 90.6% of prescriptions are dispensed free of charge._


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## MegaSteve (Oct 31, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			That's why it's SO important to continue to have a solid car manufacturing industry! The associated supply chain is extremely important to maintain and grow - and preferable 're-shore', something the falling pound actually helps!
		
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Unfortunately that is not how DfT wishes to view it.... 
It simply has to be his part of the UK versus the rest....


And, as I can't be asked to start a new post....

Why has the cost of prescriptions entered the 'debate'....

And, why the need for continuing bickering over the poxy 350M...

Last two points not aimed at you Foxy BTW...

Back to garden clearance...
And, my kale is looking to be a bumper crop this year...


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 31, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Kings Fund 2014

http://www.pharmaceutical-journal.c...year-for-nhs-says-think-tank/20066348.article

_Some 1 billion prescriptions are dispensed annually in England, with around Â£450m raised from prescription charges in 2012â€“2013. The think tank notes that while 40% of the population are liable to pay the prescription charge, in practice 90.6% of prescriptions are dispensed free of charge._

Click to expand...

This is the reason the Scottish Government did away with prescription charges.
It was costing more to operate the charges structure.
Probably the same in England.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 31, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Unfortunately that is not how DfT wishes to view it.... 
It simply has to be his part of the UK versus the rest....


And, as I can't be asked to start a new post....

Why has the cost of prescriptions entered the 'debate'....

And, why the need for continuing bickering over the poxy 350M...

Last two points not aimed at you Foxy BTW...

Back to garden clearance...
And, my kale is looking to be a bumper crop this year...
		
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Is it just a coincidence then that there are 34 car manufacturing plants in the UK and that they are all situated in England.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Unfortunately that is not how DfT wishes to view it.... 
It simply has to be his part of the UK versus the rest....


And, as I can't be asked to start a new post....

Why has the cost of prescriptions entered the 'debate'....

And, why the need for continuing bickering over the poxy 350M...

Last two points not aimed at you Foxy BTW...

Back to garden clearance...
And, my kale is looking to be a bumper crop this year...
		
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Because the 'poxy' Â£350m/week could well have been key to many people voting _Leave_.  Indeed the website @SR gave us the link to makes that very clear - never mind the Big Red Bus.  And as the margin between Staying and Leaving was actually only 2 votes in a 100 - I think there is a very valid case for _Remainers _to press for a Brexit agreement that recognises economic and single market essentials, rather than simply anti-EU fixations.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 31, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because the 'poxy' Â£350m/week could well have been key to many people voting _Leave_. * Indeed the website @SR gave us the link to makes that very clear* - never mind the Big Red Bus.  And as the margin between Staying and Leaving was actually only 2 votes in a 100 - I think there is a very valid case for _Remainers _to press for a Brexit agreement that recognises economic and single market essentials, rather than simply anti-EU fixations.
		
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You posted earlier that 'Leave' never explained what Brexit wanted to achieve.   I posted a link to a site where they did outline what they wanted it to achieve and I could post many more, you now start picking at the detail.   I agreed the Â£350 Million was an exaggeration just like Osbornes Â£4,300 was but you just keep on and on repeating the same old rhetoric.

Regarding Brexit, it means leaving the EU and not staying in it by a different name.  We knew that when we voted and that's what we expect , not some 'Kings suit of clothes' Brexit.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Is it just a coincidence then that there are 34 car manufacturing plants in the UK and that they are all situated in England.
		
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There are a great number of Companies in Scotland that manufacture for the UK car industry. After all, The rUK is Scotland's biggest Single Market.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 31, 2016)

Foxholer said:



*And can you elaborate what the 'one' is that you wish me to do? *

Click to expand...

Pleased to help. Try the 'Urban Dictionary'


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## MegaSteve (Oct 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			This is the reason the Scottish Government did away with prescription charges.
It was costing more to operate the charges structure.
Probably the same in England.
		
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And, the relevance to Brexit???



Doon frae Troon said:



			Is it just a coincidence then that there are 34 car manufacturing plants in the UK and that they are all situated in England.
		
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Fairly confident in saying that there are plenty of businesses, all over the UK, supplying goods and services to the manufacturing plants who should also benefit...


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## MegaSteve (Oct 31, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Because the 'poxy' Â£350m/week could well have been key to many people voting _Leave_.  Indeed the website @SR gave us the link to makes that very clear - never mind the Big Red Bus.  And as the margin between Staying and Leaving was actually only 2 votes in a 100 - I think there is a very valid case for _Remainers _to press for a Brexit agreement that recognises economic and single market essentials, rather than simply anti-EU fixations.
		
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And, the scaremongering of Osborne/Carney et al regarding the almost guaranteed immediate drop in value of our homes the stock market collapsing [impacting on our pension pots] counted for nowt?  OK, not as tangible as 350M but would have concerned many...

BOTH sides spoke with forked tongues....


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 31, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			There are a great number of Companies in Scotland that manufacture for the UK car industry. After all, The rUK is Scotland's biggest Single Market.
		
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It should be easy for you to name 10 of these companies then.....without of course going to your usual source.


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## MarkE (Oct 31, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think there is a very valid case for _Remainers _to press for a Brexit agreement that recognises economic and single market essentials, rather than simply anti-EU fixations.
		
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I don't. The referendum result should be acted upon to the wishes of the majority. If the result had gone the other way, i'm sure Remainers would be clamouring to retain their pro-eu fixations and ignore the wishes of the Leavers.
Why don't you all just get over it. You lost the referendum so get on with it and stop whining.:sbox:


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 31, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			And, the relevance to Brexit???



Fairly confident in saying that there are plenty of businesses, all over the UK, supplying goods and services to the manufacturing plants who should also benefit...
		
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No car plants though, I ask again.
Do you think it is just a coincidence?


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## MegaSteve (Oct 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No car plants though, I ask again.
Do you think it is just a coincidence?
		
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Is that not a historical question...

As I simply cannot think of a Scottish car manufacturer [probably embarrassing when you tell me]...

There's definitely been a Welsh one and one from NI...

Oh... Still waiting on what prescription charges have to do with Brexit???


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## brendy (Oct 31, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			Is that not a historical question...

As I simply cannot think of a Scottish car manufacturer [probably embarrassing when you tell me]...

There's definitely been a Welsh one and one from NI...

Oh... Still waiting on what prescription charges have to do with Brexit???
		
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Oi, we had Delorean *and* Ford here! oh and the world known Crossle racing cars which is still going.


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## MegaSteve (Oct 31, 2016)

brendy said:



			Oi, we had Delorean *and* Ford here! oh and the world known Crossle racing cars which is still going.
		
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It was DeLorean I was thinking of... Thought Crossle was a bit tenuous [being racing cars] and embarrassingly forgot Ford had been there.... Much of my family having worked for the blue oval...


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No car plants though, I ask again.
Do you think it is just a coincidence?
		
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So if Scotland has no motor manufacturing the Government should do nothing for such an important industry.

Obviously, therefore, no help should be offered to whiskey distilleries as they don't really exist down here. Perhaps we also should not have bailed out RBS.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 31, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			So if Scotland has no motor manufacturing the Government should do nothing for such an important industry.

Obviously, therefore, no help should be offered to whiskey distilleries as they don't really exist down here. Perhaps we also should not have bailed out RBS.
		
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God that is soooooooo predictable.

Quite agree that the UK government should have done better.

There are no whiskey businesses in Scotland.
If you mean whisky businesses, most are hundreds of years old.

Modern car plants are about 30 years old. Re built after Thatcher destroyed UK car making.

I thought RBS moved its HQ to London before the Scottish Ref.

Do you think it is a coincidence?

BTW..........Hillman Imp....probably too young to remember:lol:


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## MegaSteve (Oct 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			BTW..........Hillman Imp....probably too young to remember:lol:
		
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I wish....

And, as I said I would be... Embarrassed at not remembering Bill McGovern at the wheel of one [with a Saltire painted on the roof] back in the early 70's in the British Saloon Car C'ship... Hey ho!


Anyway you have something the rUK doesn't.... Faslane...
Must keep quite a few in employment and government subsidised...

And, the connection between prescription charges and Brexit?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			God that is soooooooo predictable.

Quite agree that the UK government should have done better.

There are no whiskey businesses in Scotland.
If you mean whisky businesses, most are hundreds of years old.

Modern car plants are about 30 years old. Re built after Thatcher destroyed UK car making.

I thought RBS moved its HQ to London before the Scottish Ref.

Do you think it is a coincidence?

BTW..........Hillman Imp....probably too young to remember:lol:
		
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No I remember the Imp, I had one new in 1972 and the build quality made Longbridge's rubbish look brilliant.

RBS HQ remains in Edinburgh and Fred Goodwin, the disgraced former CEO, is a native of that city.

As for modern car plants being modernised I would hope they are but many of them remain in their historic location e.g. Cowley, Halewood, Solihull, Castle Bromwich. By the way much as I did not care for her Mrs T was not responsible for the troubles of the motor industry. That was the responsibility of poor management and destructive trades unions, a truly toxic mix.

So yet again Old Boy I would have to ask is there a point to your post?


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 31, 2016)

MegaSteve said:



			I wish....

And, as I said I would be... Embarrassed at not remembering Bill McGovern at the wheel of one [with a Saltire painted on the roof] back in the early 70's in the British Saloon Car C'ship... Hey ho!


Anyway you have something the rUK doesn't.... Faslane...
Must keep quite a few in employment and government subsidised...

And, the connection between prescription charges and Brexit?
		
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Re prescriptions....... I was responding to 'you know who's' unhinged comment re Scottish prescription charges. :lol:
BTW and OT if you really want interesting stuff google 'paracetamol and the NHS'


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## SocketRocket (Oct 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It should be easy for you to name 10 of these companies then.....without of course going to your usual source.
		
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I am an Engineer and worked for many years in the CadCam Software industry. Many of our products were used by Tool making companies to assist with designing and manufacturing things like injection molding and press tools.   We had a distributor in Glenrothes and another in Glasgow who had a great number of customers that manufactured tooling and indeed parts for the UK Motor Industries. We also had joint research projects with Heriot Watt University on Automatic Feature recognition.

It would be unprofessional for me to list company names so I wont but I suspect you have no experience of the industry.


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 31, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			I see that the Gov of the BoE may be announcing his resignation as soon as Thursday amid claims he is sorely embarrassed to get his dire predictions of gloom and despair so badly wrong. GDP up 0.5% and shares at their highest for years. 

Also, the head of the WTO is predicting good things for the UK economy as it will no longer be called to support failing banks that are tied to the Euro. He recommends a quick exit, before the Deutche bank needs bailing out.
		
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FairwayDodger said:



			Funny, even as I read this the radio news is telling me he plans to stay longer than his original intentions.
		
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Just announced that he is leaving in June 2019


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2016)

MarkE said:



			I don't. The referendum result should be acted upon to the wishes of the majority. If the result had gone the other way, i'm sure Remainers would be clamouring to retain their pro-eu fixations and ignore the wishes of the Leavers.
Why don't you all just get over it. You lost the referendum so get on with it and stop whining.:sbox:
		
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Jeez - how many times do I have to say I have accepted that we are leaving the EU.  And asking questions is not moaning or whining - I suppose it is an easy reposte to hide behind. 

For example - the website that *@SR *gave us the link to (that apparently details the Leave manifesto) does not even mention leaving the single market - it is therefore absolutely clear to me that leavers could not have voted for the UK to leave it. And yet @SR moans at me for being picky LOL


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Just announced that he is leaving in June 2019
		
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Having done all he can to make the UKs EU exit as painless as possible and likely failing he'll just say 'well hell mend them'


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## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 31, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Having done all he can to make the UKs EU exit as painless as possible and likely failing he'll just say 'well hell mend them'
		
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Or alternatively he could be looking back upon his pre-Referendum warnings and thinking "Jeez I got that wrong!"

Certainly, just at the moment, his credibility has taken a bashing.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 31, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I am an Engineer and worked for many years in the CadCam Software industry. Many of our products were used by Tool making companies to assist with designing and manufacturing things like injection molding and press tools.   We had a distributor in Glenrothes and another in Glasgow who had a great number of customers that manufactured tooling and indeed parts for the UK Motor Industries. We also had joint research projects with Heriot Watt University on Automatic Feature recognition.

It would be unprofessional for me to list company names so I wont but I suspect you have no experience of the industry.
		
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Why would it be 'unprofessional' to name a few company names.?
You were the one claiming there were 'many'.
So far only one then.
I have never heard of them, do they employ a strong Scottish workforce?


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## NWJocko (Oct 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Is it just a coincidence then that there are 34 car manufacturing plants in the UK and that they are all situated in England.
		
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Why do you think that is the case?


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 31, 2016)

How about you lot stop trying to score cheap points off each other, it's getting boring.
And change the title as its 3 months plus now


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## chrisd (Oct 31, 2016)

PhilTheFragger said:



			How about you lot stop trying to score cheap points off each other, it's getting boring.
And change the title as its 3 months plus now 

Click to expand...

Don't you start moaning about the titles as well sunshine!!


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Having done all he can to make the UKs EU exit as painless as possible and likely failing he'll just say 'well hell mend them'
		
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So you who have accepted that you lost are now saying that the whole things going to fail. I presume you predict the score before you go out for a round of golf. Two's up with the crystal ball.


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So far only one then?
		
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Two without even trying, why you so down on the manufacturing industry in Scotland. You really must try harder or your poodle living down south will run out of things to repeat for you.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			So you who have accepted that you lost are now saying that the whole things going to fail. I presume you predict the score before you go out for a round of golf. Two's up with the crystal ball.
		
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No I didn't - I absolutely hope Brexit is a roaring success.  I want this to succeed for my children and grand-children - and everyone else who will otherwise suffer from a failure.  And for that reason i will argue for the best possible exit - regardless of what hard-line Brexiteers might themselves argue for.  And for starters that means staying in the single market - somehow.


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## Foxholer (Oct 31, 2016)

*Re: Brexit More Than Two Months On*



PhilTheFragger said:



			...
And change the title as its 3 months plus now 

Click to expand...

Er..You are one of the power to do so!


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## Old Skier (Oct 31, 2016)

*Re: Brexit More than Two Months On*



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And for starters that means staying in the single market - somehow.
		
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In your opinion. In my opinion a free trade agreement with everyone away from a failing EU is a better option.


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## Foxholer (Oct 31, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			...
There are no whiskey businesses in Scotland.
If you mean whisky businesses, most are hundreds of years old.

BTW..........Hillman Imp....probably too young to remember:lol:
		
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FWIW. The reason the term 'Whiskey' was used for the Irish product was to differentiate it from the 'low quality' product that was being made in Scotland at the time!

Likewise, British (Linwood/Scotland) versions of the Imp were notoriously poorly built! New Zealand versions were actually better! They were shipped CKD and assembled by experienced car assemblers (Todds) - as opposed to ship builders! Industrial relations in the UK car industry were pretty poor at the time too!

Similar actually happened with rover 3500s. The Kiwi assembled ones were more desirable because a purpose built assembly factory was established (in Nelson). I can confirm from personal experience that they were noticeably better built! Great engine for a US reject though!


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## Foxholer (Oct 31, 2016)

*Re: Brexit More than Two Months On*



Old Skier said:





SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And for starters that means staying in the single market - somehow.
		
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In your opinion. In my opinion a free trade agreement with everyone away from a failing EU is a better option.
		
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Er...Both would be even better - irrespective of the argument about whether EU is failing or not!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 31, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Jeez - how many times do I have to say I have accepted that we are leaving the EU.  And asking questions is not moaning or whining - I suppose it is an easy reposte to hide behind. 

For example - the website that *@SR *gave us the link to (that apparently details the Leave manifesto) does not even mention leaving the single market - it is therefore absolutely clear to me that leavers could not have voted for the UK to leave it. And yet @SR moans at me for being picky LOL 

Click to expand...

For crying out load, you are difficult.  I only gave you that link as you had suggested that 'Leave' had given NO plan or suggestions on what they wanted from Brexit.  You now start using it as their Tablet of Stone' Commandments, it was just an example of the many publications on how the UK could be better out the EU.

How can staying in the Single Market if it comes with Freedom of Movement, EU Law, Full membership Contributions, no freedom to make our own trade agreements etc be possible, that would not be leaving or what we all voted for. If the EU want to offer the Single Market without the restrictions then fine but can you see that happening?


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## Foxholer (Oct 31, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			How can staying in the Single Market if it comes with Freedom of Movement, EU Law, Full membership Contributions, no freedom to make our own trade agreements etc be possible, that would not be leaving or what we all voted for. *If the EU want to offer the Single Market without the restrictions then fine but can you see that happening?*

Click to expand...

It has just done pretty much exactly that with Canada! And is in the process of doing so with US!

As you have stated so often in the past, UK is a net importer of EU products - German cars being the obvious example! It's in EU's interest to have free trade with UK - though more-so for UK to have free trade with EU! The key for any negotiations is convincing the EU that a simple free trade agreement is worth having - without the 'shackles' of free movement of people!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 31, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			It has just done pretty much exactly that with Canada! And is in the process of doing so with US!

As you have stated so often in the past, UK is a net importer of EU products - German cars being the obvious example! It's in EU's interest to have free trade with UK - though more-so for UK to have free trade with EU! The key for any negotiations is convincing the EU that a simple free trade agreement is worth having - without the 'shackles' of free movement of people!
		
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I agree but there is the Brexit punishment issue.


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## Foxholer (Oct 31, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			I agree but there is the Brexit punishment issue.
		
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You are thinking negatively - a very 'British' approach!  

As I posted, it's up to the negotiators - even separately to the actual Brexit deal - to stress the positives for both sides! Though it's very much more in UK's interest to get a deal than the EU's (45% of exports compared with about 10%), so it won't be easy!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 31, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			You are thinking negatively - a very 'British' approach!  

As I posted, it's up to the negotiators - even separately to the actual Brexit deal - to stress the positives for both sides! Though it's very much more in UK's interest to get a deal than the EU's (45% of exports compared with about 10%), so it won't be easy!
		
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It was a tongue in cheek comment.

That 10% is another lies, lies and statistics number.  The 10% are very important exports to Countries like Germany, Spain, Belgium and France and not insignificant by any means.  The 45% export number is falling year on year as well, it was 53% in 2015, the UK is also the EU's largest single market for export.  The percentage is also questionable as it uses the exports from the UK to the rest of the world that pass through Rotterdam.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			For crying out load, you are difficult.  I only gave you that link as you had suggested that 'Leave' had given NO plan or suggestions on what they wanted from Brexit.  You now start using it as their Tablet of Stone' Commandments, it was just an example of the many publications on how the UK could be better out the EU.

How can staying in the Single Market if it comes with Freedom of Movement, EU Law, Full membership Contributions, no freedom to make our own trade agreements etc be possible, that would not be leaving or what we all voted for. If the EU want to offer the Single Market without the restrictions then fine but can you see that happening?
		
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I am not trying to be difficult - honest. 

If staying in the single market was a no-no as it conflicted with Freedom of Movement, EU Law, Full membership Contributions, no freedom to make our own trade agreements etc then surely but surely that should have been said on that website.  As it is, the website makes no mention whatsoever about the single market and having to leave it.  Mention of the single market has been deliberately left out.  

And of course there is the Â£350m/week being linked directly to a new fully-funded NHS hospital every week.  That's not a mistake.  Anyway.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2016)

On the migrants as pawns in the game question.  I read today (in the Independent) that excluding 14% don't knows - 66% of those polled said that UK should unilaterally declare that all existing non-UK EU nationals living in the UK can stay, that UK should not hold on to this as a 'bargaining chip'; should not wait for nor expect reciprocity on it from the EU.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...protections-from-prime-minister-a7386416.html


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## delc (Oct 31, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On the migrants as pawns in the game question.  I read today (in the Daily Mail I think - please forgive me) that excluding 14% don't knows - 66% of those polled said that UK should unilaterally declare that all existing non-UK EU nationals living in the UK can stay, that UK should not hold on to this as a 'bargaining chip'; should not wait for nor expect reciprocity on it from the EU.
		
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So what happens to the Brits who live and work in other EU countries?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 31, 2016)

delc said:



			So what happens to the Brits who live and work in other EU countries?
		
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You think other EU countries will kick Brits out if the UK guarantees right of residency to EU nationals resident in the UK - when nobody anywhere else has suggested such a thing might happen?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 31, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not trying to be difficult - honest. 

If staying in the single market was a no-no as it conflicted with Freedom of Movement, EU Law, Full membership Contributions, no freedom to make our own trade agreements etc then surely but surely that should have been said on that website.  As it is, the website makes no mention whatsoever about the single market and having to leave it.  Mention of the single market has been deliberately left out.  

And of course there is the Â£350m/week being linked directly to a new fully-funded NHS hospital every week.  That's not a mistake.  Anyway.
		
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Head, Wall. Bump, Bump, Bump!!!

I have explained to you that the link I posted was an example and others had been used in the campaign, it was in reply to a comment from you that there had been no policy or suggestions of what Brexit would bring.  Please stop using it as the De-Facto policy document.

Also, regarding the money sent to the EU it was generally suggested we could use it as we wished such as more spending on the NHS, not all of it on the NHS.

If you are not trying to be being difficult then I hate to think what you are like when you are trying.


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## delc (Nov 1, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You think other EU countries will kick Brits out if the UK guarantees right of residency to EU nationals resident in the UK - when nobody anywhere else has suggested such a thing might happen?
		
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We haven't guaranteed rights of residence to existing EU nationals resident in the UK yet.  There was a vote on doing so in the House of Commons last week, which was defeated by every single Conservative MP voting against it!  If we don't do so at some point, then it is likely that other EU countries will retaliate by expelling UK citizens living in them!


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## Old Skier (Nov 1, 2016)

delc said:



			We haven't guaranteed rights of residence to existing EU nationals resident in the UK yet.  There was a vote on doing so in the House of Commons last week, which was defeated by every single Conservative MP voting against it!  If we don't do so at some point, then it is likely that other EU countries will retaliate by expelling UK citizens living in them!
		
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Interested to know when this happened, please send the Hansard link as it would make an interesting read.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Head, Wall. Bump, Bump, Bump!!!

I have explained to you that the link I posted was an example and others had been used in the campaign, it was in reply to a comment from you that there had been no policy or suggestions of what Brexit would bring.  Please stop using it as the De-Facto policy document.

Also, regarding the money sent to the EU it was generally suggested we could use it as we wished such as more spending on the NHS, not all of it on the NHS.

If you are not trying to be being difficult then I hate to think what you are like when you are trying.
		
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I only refer to it as you provided the link and there is no definitive _Leave _policy document to refer to - and that is rather my point.  Can you explain why one was not created - I don't buy the 'lack of funds' argument.


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## Foxholer (Nov 1, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Interested to know when this happened, please send the Hansard link as it would make an interesting read.
		
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Will this do? Not Hansard, but a reputable Newspaper!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-work-uk-commons-european-union-a7372951.html


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I only refer to it as you provided the link and there is no definitive _Leave _policy document to refer to - and that is rather my point.  Can you explain why one was not created - I don't buy the 'lack of funds' argument.
		
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Who should have produced this document?  The Remain front had the Government machine working on it's propaganda and used the Civil Service, Treasury etc to make it's case, the Government IMO should have made a policy for 'Stay' and one for 'Leave' then let the Public make a decision on which they preferred.  It was wrong of Cameron to give the people a referendum that allowed them to make the decision on what was just about the biggest National issue for the country in the last 60 years without laying down the Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats for both sides.   It was not just a lack of funds it was the fact that it was biased and poorly managed whereby 'Fear' was used in place of information.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2016)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Why would it be 'unprofessional' to name a few company names.?
You were the one claiming there were 'many'.
So far only one then.
I have never heard of them, do they employ a strong Scottish workforce?
		
Click to expand...

You have never heard of Heriot Watt University?  Unbelievable 
https://www.hw.ac.uk/

Our terms and conditions included a clause whereby we would not pass information of our customers technology or customers to third parties.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 1, 2016)

SocketRocket said:



			Who should have produced this document?  The Remain front had the Government machine working on it's propaganda and used the Civil Service, Treasury etc to make it's case, the Government IMO should have made a policy for 'Stay' and one for 'Leave' then let the Public make a decision on which they preferred.  It was wrong of Cameron to give the people a referendum that allowed them to make the decision on what was just about the biggest National issue for the country in the last 60 years without laying down the Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities and Threats for both sides.   It was not just a lack of funds it was the fact that it was biased and poorly managed whereby 'Fear' was used in place of information.
		
Click to expand...

The _Leave_ campaign could easily have produced a manifesto.  They need not have distributed it around every household like _Remain_ did.  I recall the discussion about lack of one.  Money was the reason.  And so now there is no reference point we can ALL point to and say - THAT is what the people voted for.  And all this nonsense and confusion over what Brexit means would not exist.  I believe that no such document was produced because there was more than one _Leave_ group and the detail of common key objectives could not be agreed.  Indeed conspiracy theory suggests that a manifesto would have formally exposed inconsistencies and issues that _Leave _did not what airing.

But I suppose things could be worse for us all.  If Johnson was now PM we learn that Andrea Leadsom would be Chancellor - and that is beyond parody.  So for TM and PH I am grateful.


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## IanM (Nov 1, 2016)

Definition of Leave was made clear by the Prime Minister!!   He is really peeved as promised his Masters that he'd sort it for them! 

Mind you...every anti EU vote has been rerun till the plebs get it right.  I wonder if this will be different?


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## MarkE (Nov 1, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Jeez - how many times do I have to say I have accepted that we are leaving the EU.  And asking questions is not moaning or whining - I suppose it is an easy reposte to hide behind.
		
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But the majority of your questions hold a negative slant to brexit, so, yes it is moaning and whining. I have no need to hide behind anything, the referendum went better than I could have hoped for. Fyi, What I hoped to gain from voting for brexit was a full split from the eu, including the single market, along with all the other positives.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 1, 2016)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The _Leave_ campaign could easily have produced a manifesto.  They need not have distributed it around every household like _Remain_ did.  I recall the discussion about lack of one.  Money was the reason.  And so now there is no reference point we can ALL point to and say - THAT is what the people voted for.  And all this nonsense and confusion over what Brexit means would not exist.  I believe that no such document was produced because there was more than one _Leave_ group and the detail of common key objectives could not be agreed.  Indeed conspiracy theory suggests that a manifesto would have formally exposed inconsistencies and issues that _Leave _did not what airing.

But I suppose things could be worse for us all.  If Johnson was now PM we learn that Andrea Leadsom would be Chancellor - and that is beyond parody.  So for TM and PH I am grateful.
		
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But quite honestly the Remain "manifesto" was not a lot of help. It offered very few positives for staying within the EU focusing far too much on the negatives of leaving.

And as for more than one Leave group I would remind you that the front-bench of the Opposition did not commit to the Remain campaign and due to the "free vote" stance of the Conservatives there was confusion. 

Sadly UKIP, SNP & Lib Dems were the only ones with a united and consistent stance at a time when the public was seeking guidance from its politicians.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 1, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			But quite honestly the Remain "manifesto" was not a lot of help. It offered very few positives for staying within the EU focusing far too much on the negatives of leaving.

And as for more than one Leave group I would remind you that the front-bench of the Opposition did not commit to the Remain campaign and due to the "free vote" stance of the Conservatives there was confusion. 

Sadly UKIP, SNP & Lib Dems were the only ones with a united and consistent stance at a time when the public was seeking guidance from its politicians.
		
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The _Remain _manifesto might not have been a lot of help - but it was something.  Not having a formal _Leave_ manifesto of any sort leaves us in the mess we are in - with the frankly unanswerable questions about what Brexit actually means and what the people voted for.  Nobody actually knows.  

And that is why it is quite reasonable to accept that we are leaving the EU and yet at the same time argue for such as staying in the Single Market.  After all did our Foreign Secretary not argue that we can have both membership of the Single Market AND complete control over immigration - because the EU needs us and would agree to that.  Well I hope so.

Meanwhile the government should do the one thing that they can without any consideration of what the EU thinks or decides - and that is to do what 66% of the electorate think - unilaterally state that all here can stay.


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## Old Skier (Nov 1, 2016)

I believe the leave manifesto was to ----- um LEAVE.


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## Old Skier (Nov 1, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Will this do? Not Hansard, but a reputable Newspaper!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-work-uk-commons-european-union-a7372951.html

Click to expand...

Ta muchly. Was away in Majorca and news and papers were banned.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 1, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I believe the leave manifesto was to ----- um LEAVE.
		
Click to expand...

That was definitely the impression I got, leave and not be ruled from abroad.


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## delc (Nov 1, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1\2 Months On*



Blue in Munich said:



			That was definitely the impression I got, leave and not be ruled from abroad.
		
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The EU is hardly an invading force, because we joined it voluntarily and have represention within it. Or at least we should have if the UKIP MEP's ever bothered to turn up! If we wish to trade with Europe after a hard or soft Brexit, we will still have to comply with their rules, but with no say in how they are made!


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## Old Skier (Nov 1, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1\2 Months On*



delc said:



			The EU is hardly an invading force, because we joined it voluntarily and have represention within it. Or at least we should have if the UKIP MEP's ever bothered to turn up! If we wish to trade with Europe after a hard or soft Brexit, we will still have to comply with their rules, but with no say in how they are made!
		
Click to expand...

I think you may be missing the point. It's about re-negotiations once we're out. Not about abiding by the current rules. Nobody knows what those negotiations will mean but the pessimistic amongst us appear to think it's going to be worse while the optimist will think it will be better. Perhaps the wise will have the patience to wait and see.


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## delc (Nov 1, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1\2 Months On*



Old Skier said:



			I think you may be missing the point. It's about re-negotiations once we're out. Not about abiding by the current rules. Nobody knows what those negotiations will mean but the pessimistic amongst us appear to think it's going to be worse while the optimist will think it will be better. Perhaps the wise will have the patience to wait and see.
		
Click to expand...

Most of the Brexiters seem to think that the EU is ruled by Angela Merkel and Germany, but up to now we have also been a major player as another net contributor. I get the distinct impression that some of the hard right wing politicians in the Conservative Party and UKIP would rather be at war with Germany, rather than as peaceful allies in the EU!


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## larmen (Nov 1, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1\2 Months On*



delc said:



			If we wish to trade with Europe after a hard or soft Brexit, we will still have to comply with their rules, but with no say in how they are made!
		
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I just finished a course in GDPR, the new EU General data protection regulation coming to force in May 2018.
Anyone who sells to an EU country has to follow it. If you have a German web page or a web page selling in Euro, you are actively selling there. If you are a little company selling to UK only and someone from Poland buys from you, you are fine to ignore it.

Most of it is common sense and you would hope that a company here is following it anyway, but now that we 'got back control', until the UK does they own data protection thing, it is a free for all if you don't trade with the EU.

That's for data, there will be similar things in place for other markets.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 1, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1\2 Months On*



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The _Remain _manifesto might not have been a lot of help - but it was something.
		
Click to expand...

It was no help!

Focused on the past and spreading fear of the alternative. It gave us pro-Remainers nothing positive to offer as a counter to the arguments of the Leave campaign.

Just old style politics; "We know what is good for you."

This despite the fact that many of the electorate had made it clear that they were tired of being talked down to.


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## delc (Nov 1, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1\2 Months On*



larmen said:



			I just finished a course in GDPR, the new EU General data protection regulation coming to force in May 2018.
Anyone who sells to an EU country has to follow it. If you have a German web page or a web page selling in Euro, you are actively selling there. If you are a little company selling to UK only and someone from Poland buys from you, you are fine to ignore it.

Most of it is common sense and you would hope that a company here is following it anyway, but now that we 'got back control', until the UK does they own data protection thing, it is a free for all if you don't trade with the EU.

That's for data, there will be similar things in place for other markets.
		
Click to expand...

Most of the EU Directives are designed to ensure fair trade practises, and to enforce quality and safety standards. These are unlikely to change very much, so if we wish to trade with the EU we will have to comply with these Directives!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 1, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1\2 Months On*



delc said:



			Most of the EU Directives are designed to ensure fair trade practises, and to enforce quality and safety standards. These are unlikely to change very much, so if we wish to trade with the EU we will have to comply with these Directives!
		
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Which is exactly what happens at the moment to non-EU nations such as USA, China etc; so hardly a major difficulty.


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## Old Skier (Nov 1, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1\2 Months On*



delc said:



			Most of the Brexiters seem to think that the EU is ruled by Angela Merkel and Germany, but up to now we have also been a major player as another net contributor. I get the distinct impression that some of the hard right wing politicians in the Conservative Party and UKIP would rather be at war with Germany, rather than as peaceful allies in the EU!
		
Click to expand...

So now your accusing Brexiters of being warmongers as well as racists. Your mates who voted out might be but those I know are not. I suggest you get a new batch of friends on FB.


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## Blue in Munich (Nov 1, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1\2 Months On*



delc said:



			The EU is hardly an invading force, because we joined it voluntarily and have represention within it. Or at least we should have if the UKIP MEP's ever bothered to turn up! If we wish to trade with Europe after a hard or soft Brexit, we will still have to comply with their rules, but with no say in how they are made!
		
Click to expand...

I never said it was.  It's actually more like a club; a golf club if you like.  

You join it with your friends on a group deal because it offers want you want, because you're happy to be a member and you find the the costs acceptable.  As time goes on, you find the club has changed, you and your friends aren't enjoying it as much as you used to and it's costing you more than you are happy with.  You have the option to join the committee and try and change things from the inside, but you are constantly out-voted and overruled.  Eventually you face the reality that you either have to continue paying your membership fees to a club you're no longer happy at and just put up with it, or you leave to join another club or even form your own club with your own rules.  Members of your old club can visit your new club if they are prepared to abide by the club rules and pay the green fees, just as you can re-visit your old club if you pay the green fee.  

It would appear that a majority of us were not happy with what we were offered for our subs and have decided to walk. Because it was a group deal all of your friends have to leave with you, although some of your friends won't want to leave and might apply to re-join the old club on different terms.  There is however, no guarantee that they will be successful. 

As we are forming a new club we can set our green fees for them visiting us, just as they can set their green fees for our visits.  Who knows, we could end up with a County Card rate, a member's guest rate or we might even come up with a reciprocal agreement that mutually benefits both sidesâ€¦â€¦  we won't know until we sit down and discuss it though.  Simple enough for you delc?  



Old Skier said:



*I think you may be missing the point.* It's about re-negotiations once we're out. Not about abiding by the current rules. Nobody knows what those negotiations will mean but the pessimistic amongst us appear to think it's going to be worse while the optimist will think it will be better. Perhaps the wise will have the patience to wait and see.
		
Click to expand...

That wouldn't be the first timeâ€¦â€¦â€¦..


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1\2 Months On*



delc said:



			The EU is hardly an invading force, because we joined it voluntarily and have represention within it. Or at least we should have if the UKIP MEP's ever bothered to turn up! If we wish to trade with Europe after a hard or soft Brexit, we will still have to comply with their rules, but with no say in how they are made!
		
Click to expand...

There is so much wrong with that statement it's probably best to say you don't seem to understand the subject so best for us to ignore it as ignorant.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 1, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1\2 Months On*



Old Skier said:



			I believe the leave manifesto was to ----- um LEAVE.
		
Click to expand...

Quite...there are many ways of leaving a room


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1\2 Months On*



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Quite...there are many ways of leaving a room
		
Click to expand...

You Just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 2, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1\2 Months On*

Yea....finally some Brexit good news.
Experts say inflation will rise to around 4% in 2017.

I just might get a bit of interest on my hard earned savings.


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1/2 Months On*



Doon frae Troon said:



			Yea....finally some Brexit good news.
Experts say inflation will rise to around 4% in 2017.

I just might get a bit of interest on my hard earned savings.
		
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Experts say a lot of things go.  They predicted we would remain in the EU.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 2, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1\2 Months On*



Doon frae Troon said:



			Yea....finally some Brexit good news.
Experts say inflation will rise to around 4% in 2017.

I just might get a bit of interest on my hard earned savings.
		
Click to expand...


Every cloud...


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## delc (Nov 2, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1\2 Months On*



Doon frae Troon said:



			Yea....finally some Brexit good news.
Experts say inflation will rise to around 4% in 2017.

I just might get a bit of interest on my hard earned savings.
		
Click to expand...

That assumes that the BoE base rate also goes up, which is not guaranteed and also bad news for people with mortgages. Also the value of your savings has already been reduced by 18% in real terms by the fall of the Pound!


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## delc (Nov 2, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1\2 Months On*



Old Skier said:



			Experts say a lot of things go.  They predicted we would remain in the EU.
		
Click to expand...

You must be a fan of the Michael Gove school of ignorance Skier!


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 2, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1\2 Months On*



delc said:



			That assumes that the BoE base rate also goes up, which is not guaranteed and also bad news for people with mortgages. Also the value of your savings has already been reduced by 18% in real terms by the fall of the Pound!
		
Click to expand...

Whilst The Bof E may increase interest rates to stop future inflation, the notion that your savings have reduced by 18% in real terms by the fall of the pound is laughable.

The only way this would happen is if your savings were all in foreign currency .

Most peoples savings are in premium bonds, bank or building society accounts, which are unaffected by exchange rates, Some will have stocks, shares or unit trusts, which have gone up recently, some will have it stuffed under the bed, where inflation (currently low) will have a slight affect.

Maybe if you are a pensioner and you live abroad, your pension may get converted and paid by euros, so that will have fallen, but that is income, not savings.


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 2, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1/2 Months On*



Old Skier said:



			Experts say a lot of things go.  They predicted we would remain in the EU.
		
Click to expand...

I know, pesky experts, we've certainly had more than enough of their ilk!


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## pendodave (Nov 2, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1\2 Months On*



PhilTheFragger said:



			Whilst The Bof E may increase interest rates to stop future inflation, the notion that your savings have reduced by 18% in real terms by the fall of the pound is laughable.

The only way this would happen is if your savings were all in foreign currency .

Most peoples savings are in premium bonds, bank or building society accounts, which are unaffected by exchange rates, Some will have stocks, shares or unit trusts, which have gone up recently, some will have it stuffed under the bed, where inflation (currently low) will have a slight affect.

Maybe if you are a pensioner and you live abroad, your pension may get converted and paid by euros, so that will have fallen, but that is income, not savings.
		
Click to expand...

Blimey Mr frag ,are you Harold Wilson in disguise??

If all my savings were in foreign, I would now be 18% richer.

And anything I buy that is traded in dollars or euro will now cost 18% more.

Now what trivial and unimportant things does that cover ? Only oil and a good chunk of my food and holidays....


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2016)

delc said:



			You must be a fan of the Michael Gove school of ignorance Skier!  

Click to expand...

I'm not sure if your just a little think or plain rude.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 2, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I'm not sure if your just a little think or plain rude.
		
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Oops


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2016)

Fat fingers. That will teach me.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 2, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Fat fingers. That will teach me.
		
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C is a long way from N.........poor excuse.


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2016)

So is being on a golf course using a phone but there you go.


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## Foxholer (Nov 2, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1\2 Months On*



SocketRocket said:





delc said:



			The EU is hardly an invading force, because we joined it voluntarily and have represention within it. Or at least we should have if the UKIP MEP's ever bothered to turn up! If we wish to trade with Europe after a hard or soft Brexit, we will still have to comply with their rules, but with no say in how they are made!
		
Click to expand...

There is so much wrong with that statement it's probably best to say you don't seem to understand the subject so best for us to ignore it as ignorant.
		
Click to expand...

The last sentence is correct even if the first two are almost certainly not!

However, complying with 'their' rules should be no (or at least only marginally) more difficult in future than it is now. There may even be scope for ignoring some of the more cumbersome ones in certain circumstances - that UK Government could decide - but that's an area fraught with danger, both physical and commercial!


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## Foxholer (Nov 2, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1\2 Months On*



PhilTheFragger said:



			Whilst The Bof E may increase interest rates to stop future inflation, the notion that your savings have reduced by 18% in real terms by the fall of the pound is laughable.

*The only way this would happen is if your savings were all in foreign currency *.
...
		
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Doh! :rofl:

What did you say your career was? 

I hope they never let you do any Forex trading! 

Mind you, I always struggled to get my head round a few of the instruments used in a Wholesale Banking package we reverse-engineered a (long) while ago!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 2, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1\2 Months On*



SocketRocket said:



			You Just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new plan, Stan
You don't need to be coy, Roy
Just get yourself free
		
Click to expand...

But @SR - you and the EU ain't much of lovers.  Though you are correct - there are 50 ways to leave your lover.


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 2, 2016)

*Re: Brexit 4 1\2 Months On*

Going to close this thread as a new one has started and duplication is a real pain in the doo dah


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