# Bitter golfers



## Darren24 (Apr 18, 2015)

Well I played today in stableford comp and the two gentlemen who I was playing with started the round before I had even hit a ball with comments like " 24, I wouldn't give you more than 18" and "the handicap committee were nice to you hay" bearing in mind I did not know these blokes I thought oh so this is going to be interesting or I'm going to hate it. Anyway nothing changed and they could not help but make smarmy remarks so to say it was one round I really did not enjoy. If I played a good shot they fell silent but then when I hit a bad one they made comments. These two blokes were in there 60's and both played off around 10. My question is why do people have to act like this just because I'm a high handicapper and im young. Just for your information I scored 31 points and they scored 26 and 32. I walked away quite upset and to be honest I think after the 4th hole I just wanted to walk off and tell them to shove it. I was looking so forward to this comp as we don't have many stableford comps and I knew I could of played better but I lost interest after the comments did not stop.


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## Del_Boy (Apr 18, 2015)

Darren24 said:



			Well I played today in stableford comp and the two gentlemen who I was playing with started the round before I had even hit a ball with comments like " 24, I wouldn't give you more than 18" and "the handicap committee were nice to you hay" bearing in mind I did not know these blokes I thought oh so this is going to be interesting or I'm going to hate it. Anyway nothing changed and they could not help but make smarmy remarks so to say it was one round I really did not enjoy. If I played a good shot they fell silent but then when I hit a bad one they made comments. These two blokes were in there 60's and both played off around 10. My question is why do people have to act like this just because I'm a high handicapper and im young. Just for your information I scored 31 points and they scored 26 and 32. I walked away quite upset and to be honest I think after the 4th hole I just wanted to walk off and tell them to shove it. I was looking so forward to this comp as we don't have many stableford comps and I knew I could of played better but I lost interest after the comments did not stop.
		
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Unforunately there are a few prats in all walks of life just got to learn to deal with it the best way you can me old mucker.


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## Tongo (Apr 18, 2015)

Darren24 said:



			Well I played today in stableford comp and the two gentlemen who I was playing with started the round before I had even hit a ball with comments like " 24, I wouldn't give you more than 18" and "the handicap committee were nice to you hay" bearing in mind I did not know these blokes I thought oh so this is going to be interesting or I'm going to hate it. Anyway nothing changed and they could not help but make smarmy remarks so to say it was one round I really did not enjoy. If I played a good shot they fell silent but then when I hit a bad one they made comments. These two blokes were in there 60's and both played off around 10. My question is why do people have to act like this just because I'm a high handicapper and im young. Just for your information I scored 31 points and they scored 26 and 32. I walked away quite upset and to be honest I think after the 4th hole I just wanted to walk off and tell them to shove it. I was looking so forward to this comp as we don't have many stableford comps and I knew I could of played better but I lost interest after the comments did not stop.
		
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Some people are just permanently miserable.


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## North Mimms (Apr 18, 2015)

Really rude of them.
Well done for sticking it out.
I hope you didn't buy them a drink afterwards!


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## Fish (Apr 18, 2015)

Darren24 said:



			Well I played today in stableford comp and the two gentlemen who I was playing with started the round before I had even hit a ball with comments like " 24, I wouldn't give you more than 18" and "the handicap committee were nice to you hay" bearing in mind I did not know these blokes I thought oh so this is going to be interesting or I'm going to hate it. Anyway nothing changed and they could not help but make smarmy remarks so to say it was one round I really did not enjoy. If I played a good shot they fell silent but then when I hit a bad one they made comments. These two blokes were in there 60's and both played off around 10. My question is why do people have to act like this just because I'm a high handicapper and im young. Just for your information I scored 31 points and they scored 26 and 32. I walked away quite upset and to be honest I think after the 4th hole I just wanted to walk off and tell them to shove it. I was looking so forward to this comp as we don't have many stableford comps and I knew I could of played better but I lost interest after the comments did not stop.
		
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Its a shame that there are these [put your own words in here] at every club, its what gets spoken about more than the positives and as such probably deters many younger golfers from joining clubs, they are a hinderer to clubs and not an asset in any way, the quicker the flag is at half mast for these blinkered and insular individuals the better!


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## Darren24 (Apr 18, 2015)

I certainly did not buy them a drink I didn't even sit with them as I would do with all other playing partners. Found out they are both on the handicap committee. I for sure will not be putting my name down in a comp with them again.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 18, 2015)

Darren24 said:



			Well I played today in stableford comp and the two gentlemen who I was playing with started the round before I had even hit a ball with comments like " 24, I wouldn't give you more than 18" and "the handicap committee were nice to you hay" bearing in mind I did not know these blokes I thought oh so this is going to be interesting or I'm going to hate it. Anyway nothing changed and they could not help but make smarmy remarks so to say it was one round I really did not enjoy. If I played a good shot they fell silent but then when I hit a bad one they made comments. These two blokes were in there 60's and both played off around 10. My question is why do people have to act like this just because I'm a high handicapper and im young. Just for your information I scored 31 points and they scored 26 and 32. I walked away quite upset and to be honest I think after the 4th hole I just wanted to walk off and tell them to shove it. I was looking so forward to this comp as we don't have many stableford comps and I knew I could of played better but I lost interest after the comments did not stop.
		
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Head up mate, don't let the miserables sods win!


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## Old Skier (Apr 18, 2015)

Darren, best way to deal with it was to sit with them and suggest their handicaps are to low and they must have been dealt harshly at the review.


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## Fish (Apr 18, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			Darren, best way to deal with it was to sit with them and suggest their handicaps are to low and they must have been dealt harshly at the review.
		
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Exactly, 1 of them shot 10 over and the other 4 over and you, a relative young newcomer only shot 5 over and yet they have many, MANY years under their belt, so for me, you had the better day :smirk:


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## Darren24 (Apr 18, 2015)

Thanks fellas for the kind words just can't get my head round why people who play the sport can be so bitter and nasty over a handicap. For all they know I could off been a complete novice and never played in a competitive comp before. It was and kinda still is disheartening for me. I'm a nervous golfer anyway and this doesn't help me. Going to try and forget about it and hopefully enjoy the next comp.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 18, 2015)

Darren24 said:



			Thanks fellas for the kind words just can't get my head round why people who play the sport can be so bitter and nasty over a handicap. For all they know I could off been a complete novice and never played in a competitive comp before. It was and kinda still is disheartening for me. I'm a nervous golfer anyway and this doesn't help me. Going to try and forget about it and hopefully enjoy the next comp.
		
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Where do you play Darren?


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## TopOfTheFlop (Apr 18, 2015)

I get it quite a lot Darren. Just play your game and smile. 
I haven't been in comps for a while now (leaving of one club and brief break and now back at another) so playing got better but handicap hasn't had the chance to go down yet. Im sure over the course of the next few comps I will get it and I'm fine with that because we're all out there enjoying our day and doing what we love to do when we have free time and I won't let people like that take that away from me, I work too bloody hard for me to think to hard about their thoughts and comments. 
The word bandit gets thrown around like wildfire - and being fairly young and having a relatively decent swing it's commented at me numerous times from the 1st tee onwardsâ€¦ 
When your single digits and you push hard to get close to 36pts on a stable ford only then will none of the above happen! So just smile and play your game and ENJOY!!!!!!


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## snell (Apr 18, 2015)

Same thing happened to me last year...Got to the point where someone started a rumour that I used to play off 4 when I was a teenager and just handed in 3 crap cards to get a high hcp! 

But as a previous poster said you get these types of people in all walks of life. Fair play for sticking it out and you now know to avoid them :thup:


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## JohnnyDee (Apr 18, 2015)

There is a breed of golfer who can see nothing other than, or be remotely impressed by, anyone on the course other than themselves or their mates.

Golf, more than other games, is apt to bring out the green-eyed envy monster in those who are self-obsessed and deluded by their own misperceptions regarding their (quite often) somewhat ordinary abilities.


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## Darren24 (Apr 18, 2015)

Like most of you have said, just enjoy it. That is what gets me I go out to enjoy it that is why I pay my membership so I would of thought everyone if not most are in the same boat. To me they are paying for a hobby to slate anyone with a high handicap. Surely they don't get enjoyment out of that. I play at Curzon park Chester. Oh I also forgot to mention one was a master of rules and reminded me of any rules I could of possibly broke if I do this that or the other when I was not going to do this that or the other. I will well and truly be avoiding these blokes for future comps.


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## JohnnyDee (Apr 18, 2015)

Darren24 said:



			Like most of you have said, just enjoy it. That is what gets me I go out to enjoy it that is why I pay my membership so I would of thought everyone if not most are in the same boat. To me they are paying for a hobby to slate anyone with a high handicap. Surely they don't get enjoyment out of that. I play at Curzon park Chester. Oh I also forgot to mention one was a master of rules and reminded me of any rules I could of possibly broke if I do this that or the other when I was not going to do this that or the other. I will well and truly be avoiding these blokes for future comps.
		
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Sounds like you got stuck with two absolute edjits and the sort of golf snobs that give the game a bad name. The _lesser spotted potential rule infringement warner _is more often than not the club's biggest pillock.


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## 6inchcup (Apr 18, 2015)

no man should get more than a shot per hole and no one under 16 should play in mens comps.END OF THREAD.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 18, 2015)

Darren24 said:



			Like most of you have said, just enjoy it. That is what gets me I go out to enjoy it that is why I pay my membership so I would of thought everyone if not most are in the same boat. To me they are paying for a hobby to slate anyone with a high handicap. Surely they don't get enjoyment out of that. I play at Curzon park Chester. Oh I also forgot to mention one was a master of rules and reminded me of any rules I could of possibly broke if I do this that or the other when I was not going to do this that or the other. I will well and truly be avoiding these blokes for future comps.
		
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Well if you're up in the NE, please drop me a message and we can enjoy a relaxed game up here.


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## guest100718 (Apr 18, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			no man should get more than a shot per hole and no one under 16 should play in mens comps.END OF THREAD.
		
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At my last clubs we had 13 year olds in cat 1.... Do you feel embarrassed watching a kid show you how easy the game is?


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## Foxholer (Apr 18, 2015)

TopOfTheFlop said:



			I get it quite a lot Darren. Just play your game and smile. 
I haven't been in comps for a while now (leaving of one club and brief break and now back at another) so playing got better but handicap hasn't had the chance to go down yet. Im sure over the course of the next few comps I will get it and I'm fine with that because we're all out there enjoying our day and doing what we love to do when we have free time and I won't let people like that take that away from me, I work too bloody hard for me to think to hard about their thoughts and comments. 
The word bandit gets thrown around like wildfire - and being fairly young and having a relatively decent swing it's commented at me numerous times from the 1st tee onwardsâ€¦ 
When your single digits and you push hard to get close to 36pts on a stable ford only then will none of the above happen! So just smile and play your game and ENJOY!!!!!!
		
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Slightly Off Topic....
Having seen you play close up, then 'bandit' is certainly a word that I can imagine springs to mind - but, for me, only in the best possible way! It's not up to you to feel guilty about the system not being able to keep up with your improvement - there are ways for it to do so and I hope you keep exercising them! I'm sure you will enjoy Blackmoor too - good choice!

Back On Topic
Unfortunate that you got paired up with a couple of prats! Did you ask them for the basis on which they decided they'd only allow 18? As others have posted, there's vain idiots like this at almost all clubs, probably still clinging to the hope that they can continue to be competitive - by knocking other players! More congrats on persevering too! Avoiding them in the future is the diplomatic way to handle  it!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 18, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			no man should get more than a shot per hole and no one under 16 should play in mens comps.END OF THREAD.
		
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Then it's good you're not in a position to make those sort of decisions


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## snell (Apr 18, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			no man should get more than a shot per hole and no one under 16 should play in mens comps.END OF THREAD.
		
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And we get the same sort of helmets on the forum too as we can see above


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## Heavy-grebo (Apr 18, 2015)

The thing is with these people if they've put you off then they've been successful in their mission. They were fishing, every club has them and in my experience they are a bit quieter on their own, a lesson learned maybe you'll be better equipped next time.


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## louise_a (Apr 18, 2015)

One of the nice things about ladies golf is that because there aren't as many members and we are more sociable than the men, so that we already know all the people we play with so don't get this unpleasant problem.


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## Darren24 (Apr 18, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			no man should get more than a shot per hole and no one under 16 should play in mens comps.END OF THREAD.
		
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who ever said I was under 16? And I would love to hear you reason for no one getting more than a shot a hole.  So I guess when you started playing golf you where never 18+ handicap then.


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## Darren24 (Apr 18, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			Well if you're up in the NE, please drop me a message and we can enjoy a relaxed game up here.
		
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Thank you very much Paul for this kind offer.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 18, 2015)

snell said:



			And we get the same sort of helmets on the forum too as we can see above
		
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&#128077;&#128077;&#128077;


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## Face breaker (Apr 18, 2015)

I actually walked away once, I was having a bad round and found myself the target of snide remarks and funny glances, I didn't say anything I just bagged me clubs, picked up me bag and walked off, their faces were a rite picture !...:rofl:

Anyway buddy strikes me as you did the right thing and carried on regardless, lesser mortals like myself would have been sorely tempted to insert their drivers somewhere where the sun don't shine, I'm usually quite placid and find most thing amusing but being of "Scottish decent" that only lasts for so long or until I don't find it amusing anymore then things can go "down hill, rapidly" to say the least !...:thup:


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## chellie (Apr 18, 2015)

louise_a said:



			One of the nice things about ladies golf is that because there aren't as many members and we are more sociable than the men, so that we already know all the people we play with so don't get this unpleasant problem.
		
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Wish I could say the same Louise. I've had it when I've driven off our first before now. 

Darren, easier said than done but try and ignore it. I find that some middle range handicappers can be the worst for it.


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## Wayman (Apr 18, 2015)

snell said:



			Got to the point where someone started a rumour that I used to play off 4 when I was a teenager and just handed in 3 crap cards to get a high hcp!
		
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Obviously haven't seen ya swing a club!!!!


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## snell (Apr 18, 2015)

Wayman said:



			Obviously haven't seen ya swing a club!!!!
		
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Exactly Rory


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## 3565 (Apr 18, 2015)

I would of been engaging with them asked about their golfing backgrounds, how long they've been playing, complimented them on their shots, and when they come to shake your hand, shake them and say for golfers who have been playing for X number of years, you've certainly shown me how you can knock it round like a high handicapper, and your attitude stinks. 

Dont put up with it, stand your ground and give them as good as you get.. 

Well done for sticking with it tho.  Most seniors are Grumpy old men.


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## Markw (Apr 18, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			no man should get more than a shot per hole and no one under 16 should play in mens comps.END OF THREAD.
		
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I think that they should cater for 0-18 handicap and 18-28 in club competitions or make some competitions maximum of 18 handicap. I don't enter many now, I worked my arse off recently for a 36 pointer, first 36pts in 2 months and then find someone off 24 has won it with 45 points! Whenever I play with higher handicappers it obvious that the majority of them can hit a ball and they have a nice relaxing round in their comfort zone scoring 38-39 pointers!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 18, 2015)

Markw said:



			I think that they should cater for 0-18 handicap and 18-28 in club competitions or make some competitions maximum of 18 handicap. I don't enter many now, I worked my arse off recently for a 36 pointer, first 36pts in 2 months and then find someone off 24 has won it with 45 points! Whenever I play with higher handicappers it obvious that the majority of them can hit a ball and they have a nice relaxing round in their comfort zone scoring 38-39 pointers!
		
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All that would do is ruin what is great about golf 

The fact many people of all abilities can compete together on a level playing field 

Start splitting them up then it becomes elitist and will just put people off

There are already comps around the country - scratch comps for example - mid ams which are aimed at HC ranges but club comps should IMO always be full inclusive for everyone


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## Soft hands (Apr 18, 2015)

My Dad played in one of his very 1st comps with two guys like this last year. 

On his very first drive they commented on his handicap. It really spoilt the round for him especially competition golf. 

Luckily he played with a young lad who's cat 1 and really enjoyed it. 

Every club has people like these the thing that's gets me they must have a had a higher handicap at some point, do they forget that they must have been improving at one time or another.


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## Soft hands (Apr 18, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			All that would do is ruin what is great about golf 

The fact many people of all abilities can compete together on a level playing field 

Start splitting them up then it becomes elitist and will just put people off

There are already comps around the country - scratch comps for example - mid ams which are aimed at HC ranges but club comps should IMO always be full inclusive for everyone
		
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Exactly. It's one of the best things about golf that players of different levels can compete together.


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## Fish (Apr 18, 2015)

Markw said:



			I think that they should cater for 0-18 handicap and 18-28 in club competitions or make some competitions maximum of 18 handicap. I don't enter many now, I worked my arse off recently for a 36 pointer, first 36pts in 2 months and then find someone off 24 has won it with 45 points! Whenever I play with higher handicappers it obvious that the majority of them can hit a ball and they have a nice relaxing round in their comfort zone scoring 38-39 pointers!
		
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Well you come across quite bitter!

Most clubs have their comps in divisions splitting up handicaps accordingly, rather than moaning at someone (a Cat4) having a good round and obviously being cut accordingly, thus soothing your bitterness in an attempt not to be soured again, try getting onto your club to split handicaps into divisions for comps.

That 24 handicapper which you refer to would have been cut by 3.6 shots so they can't keep having relaxing round rounds of 38-39, so to not enter comps because higher handicapped players can have a good knock is just plain daft, are you protecting your handicap by not entering your comps :smirk:


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## Markw (Apr 18, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			All that would do is ruin what is great about golf 

The fact many people of all abilities can compete together on a level playing field 

Start splitting them up then it becomes elitist and will just put people off

There are already comps around the country - scratch comps for example - mid ams which are aimed at HC ranges but club comps should IMO always be full inclusive for everyone
		
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In an ideal world yes, but its not a level playing field when lower handicappers have to really play well to score 36 points against players who score 43-45 in social games and 38-39+ in comps regularly, I know this happens at 3 clubs that I play or know people. At the moment I only play to my handicap around 8 times a year due to 4 months out with injury a while back, but when I joined my first club 4 years ago my 3 cards gave me a 22 handicap and in the first year got down to 13hc, 2nd 9hc and third 6hc which was probably to quick and not helped me. This was done by entering all cards in comp and also any good round with a member that was signed, I did everything I could to play fair as I was one that was entering these silly scores at the time and in fact was embarrassing. What I've noticed in the last 2 years is there are certain players who score 43+ points regularly in social games and around 38-39pt in club comps meaning their handicap doesn't move much if any and recently was paired with one of these types who was a 22hc and winning a lot. Front 9 he scored 12 points and I wondered what the fuss was about, only for him to get 26 points on the back 9 and shoot 2 less gross than my 3 over  gross 18 points for the back nine!


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## 6inchcup (Apr 18, 2015)

looks like you will get along with liverpoolphil who is always right about everything then,its a common thought on these pages that a mens max h/c should be 18 like it or not.


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## Markw (Apr 18, 2015)

Fish said:



			Well you come across quite bitter!
QUOTE]
Not bitter at all, I can hold my head up high and know I don't play the system. I play regularly with the same type of players so some good evenly matched battles between us.
We have all sussed that the comps are normally won by a 20-24 hc and I've been there, admittedly not long as I wasn't so cute with my cards so will leave it to them to enjoy!
		
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## NWJocko (Apr 18, 2015)

Markw said:





Fish said:



			Well you come across quite bitter!
QUOTE]
Not bitter at all, I can hold my head up high and know I don't play the system. I play regularly with the same type of players so some good evenly matched battles between us.
We have all sussed that the comps are normally won by a 20-24 hc and I've been there, admittedly not long as I wasn't so cute with my cards so will leave it to them to enjoy!
		
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You've quite a high handicap for handicap snobbery haven't you!?

Stableford final at my club today, won with 42 points and a 24 point back 9.

By a 5 handicapper (now 4) :thup:
		
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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 18, 2015)

Markw said:



			In an ideal world yes, but its not a level playing field when lower handicappers have to really play well to score 36 points *against players who score 43-45 in social games and 38-39+ in comps regularly*, I know this happens at 3 clubs that I play or know people. At the moment I only play to my handicap around 8 times a year due to 4 months out with injury a while back, but when I joined my first club 4 years ago my 3 cards *gave me a 22 handicap and in the first year got down to 13hc*, 2nd 9hc and third 6hc which was probably to quick and not helped me. This was done by entering all cards in comp and also any good round with a member that was signed, I did everything I could to play fair as I was one that was entering these silly scores at the time and in fact was embarrassing. What I've noticed in the last 2 years is there are certain players who score 43+ points regularly in social games and around 38-39pt in club comps meaning their handicap doesn't move much if any and recently was paired with one of these types who was a 22hc and winning a lot. Front 9 he scored 12 points and I wondered what the fuss was about, only for him to get 26 points on the back 9 and shoot 2 less gross than my 3 over  gross 18 points for the back nine!
		
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So how many good scores did you put in during that time?


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## 6inchcup (Apr 18, 2015)

what level playing field is this !!!!!! the low h/c player competing against a high h/c bandit,why would a comp for sub 10 h/c be elitist,why are club champions and some board comps gross scores,why not have a club champion off a 24 h/c in your ideal world.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 18, 2015)

Markw said:



			In an ideal world yes, but its not a level playing field when lower handicappers have to really play well to score 36 points against players who score 43-45 in social games and 38-39+ in comps regularly, I know this happens at 3 clubs that I play or know people. At the moment I only play to my handicap around 8 times a year due to 4 months out with injury a while back, but when I joined my first club 4 years ago my 3 cards gave me a 22 handicap and in the first year got down to 13hc, 2nd 9hc and third 6hc which was probably to quick and not helped me. This was done by entering all cards in comp and also any good round with a member that was signed, I did everything I could to play fair as I was one that was entering these silly scores at the time and in fact was embarrassing. What I've noticed in the last 2 years is there are certain players who score 43+ points regularly in social games and around 38-39pt in club comps meaning their handicap doesn't move much if any and recently was paired with one of these types who was a 22hc and winning a lot. Front 9 he scored 12 points and I wondered what the fuss was about, only for him to get 26 points on the back 9 and shoot 2 less gross than my 3 over  gross 18 points for the back nine!
		
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Social games have no relevance 

And are you really complaining that because someone beats you by scoring 38-39 whilst you only play to your HC it's unfair ? 

Only have to look at the recent forum meets that are being held - HC of the winners so far are two cat 1 players plus someone of 6 and one of 7

The high HC's have those one in a million rounds when they play well - the lower HC play consistently throughout the year and heir ability rises when it's gets tough in a medal.

What you suggest would be counter productive to the game of golf because you would just alienate the HC because they also win comps . 

I reckon if you look at the club's winners over the years there will be a mix between low , mid and high - I know ours is because I did a check when someone also complained about Juniors and High HC winning recently 

I mainly put it down to bitterness that someone else just played better on the day relevant to their HC - which is exactly what HC club golf is about


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 18, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			what level playing field is this !!!!!! the low h/c player competing against a high h/c bandit,why would a comp for sub 10 h/c be elitist,why are club champions and some board comps gross scores,why not have a club champion off a 24 h/c in your ideal world.
		
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Club Champs are scratch - always have been and always will be 

Why are high HC now bandits ?! 

And restricting HC comps to low HC is snobbery and elitist and would damage the game


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## NWJocko (Apr 18, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			what level playing field is this !!!!!! the low h/c player competing against a high h/c bandit,why would a comp for sub 10 h/c be elitist,why are club champions and some board comps gross scores,why not have a club champion off a 24 h/c in your ideal world.
		
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If all high handicappers at your club are "bandits" it's more an issue with the club/members than anything else.

I'm guessing you don't win much.....


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 18, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			looks like you will get along with liverpoolphil who is always right about everything then,*its a common thought on these pages that a mens max h/c should be 18 like it or not.*

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Is it common ? Not something I have witnessed ?  - just to make you aware there are plans afoot to increase the maximum HC of both men's and ladies to encourage more people to play the game to counter the drop in numbers


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## Markw (Apr 18, 2015)

drive4show said:



			So how many good scores did you put in during that time?
		
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During the first year it was most rounds but all cards were entered. People don't get the arse when its common knowledge you are doing all you can to reduce your handicap and entering cards, but every club has the stories of the ones that score 40+ points and don't enter them!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 18, 2015)

Markw said:



			During the first year it was most rounds but all cards were entered. People don't get the arse when its common knowledge you are doing all you can to reduce your handicap and entering cards, but every club has the stories of the ones that score 40+ points and don't enter them!
		
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People cant enter scores just because they have a good round - that ensures that people don't get HC based on the one good round and vanity HC.


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## upsidedown (Apr 18, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is it common ? Not something I have witnessed ?  - just to make you aware there are plans afoot to increase the maximum HC of both men's and ladies to encourage more people to play the game to counter the drop in numbers
		
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In NZ maximums are 38 men 45 ladies , more than happy to see that here as it opens the game to more people


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## Tiger man (Apr 18, 2015)

You should be happy then? You are playing to better yourself, and if the ones protecting their handicaps are that desperate to win you will never stop them from manipulating their scores to do so. Sad on their part but every club has them, leave em to it the poor souls.


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## Markw (Apr 18, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			People cant enter scores just because they have a good round - that ensures that people don't get HC based on the one good round and vanity HC.
		
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When I was scoring 48-50 points in games with people on the hc committee then they can cut you on general play.


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## 6inchcup (Apr 18, 2015)

:smirk:not all only when some forum members turn up,we have the same debate all the time about golf being open to everyone,WHY, should private members clubs not have a veting system to black ball those the dont wish to have.As for the comment from lpoolphil that just because some comps have always been scratch does this not alianate those members who will never win and thus making it elitist OR should all comps be stableford?? on the levell playing field.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 18, 2015)

Markw said:



			When I was scoring 48-50 points in games with people on the hc committee then they can cut you on general play.
		
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And it can't be done now unless it's for someone who has been given a new HC - but I don't think I have come across many scoring 48-50 points.

HC committees can't just cut people in general play anymore


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Apr 18, 2015)

Markw said:



			During the first year it was most rounds but all cards were entered. People don't get the arse when its common knowledge you are doing all you can to reduce your handicap and entering cards, but every club has the stories of the ones that score 40+ points and don't enter them!
		
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There can be a world of difference between 40pts in a bounce game (possibly with generous gimme's?) and doing it with a card in your hand. And who is to say that the guys in the OP aren't desperate to get their handicaps down?


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## NWJocko (Apr 18, 2015)

NWJocko said:





Markw said:



			You've quite a high handicap for handicap snobbery haven't you!?

Stableford final at my club today, won with 42 points and a 24 point back 9.

By a 5 handicapper (now 4) :thup:
		
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I see this has been ignored as it doesn't fit the argument that only high handicap Mexican, horse riding bandidos can score more than 40 points.......

IMO it depends why you play. I couldn't give a monkeys about winning comps really, I want to get better, shoot lower scores and hopefully reduce my handicap every time I tee it up.

Winning comps I really never think about. 

It seems some folk are desperate to win comps but lose out to high(er) (7 isn't low IMO) handicaps and throw their toys out of the pram.
		
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## Oxfordcomma (Apr 18, 2015)

After one of the other recent threads on this I went through the results of all of the past comps at my club, going back a couple of years (it was a boring night when Mrs Comma had gone to bed early). I wanted to know if it really was true - do low handicappers have a disadvantage when they play in club comps against Cat 4 players with 20+ handicaps?

The results were quite surprising.

Cat 1 golfers make up 6% of our membership. They win 18% of comps.
Cat 4 golfers make up 23% of our membership. They win 14% of comps.

I wasn't bored enough to do a true statistical analysis but this suggests to me very strongly that although people everywhere perceive that "A low capper can't live with the Cat 4s", that perception is actually just plain wrong. They can and do.


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## Markw (Apr 18, 2015)

Tiger man said:



			You should be happy then? You are playing to better yourself, and if the ones protecting their handicaps are that desperate to win you will never stop them from manipulating their scores to do so. Sad on their part but every club has them, leave em to it the poor souls.
		
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I am happy with my golf, always played to get my handicap down to a realistic level and play with the same type of players, we all hit handicap about once a month and normally 3-4 shots off it.
I don't understand the others who protect their handicaps and if the others in this thread haven't seen or heard this then they are either one of them or have their head buried in the sand!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 18, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			:smirk:not all only when some forum members turn up,we have the same debate all the time about golf being open to everyone,WHY, should private members clubs not have a veting system to black ball those the dont wish to have.As for the comment from lpoolphil that just because some comps have always been scratch does this not alianate those members who will never win and thus making it elitist OR should all comps be stableford?? on the levell playing field.
		
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Thankfully I hope and believe that dinosaurs in golf like yourself are becoming more extinct with more and more people ensuring that golf is more welcoming and open to everyone and not just an elite few. 

When did anyone suggest all comps be stableford ? 

Handicap golf -is great , it allows everyone to play regardless of ability or age and gives them all a great chance to win


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## NWJocko (Apr 18, 2015)

Markw said:



			I am happy with my golf, always played to get my handicap down to a realistic level and play with the same type of players, we all hit handicap about once a month and normally 3-4 shots off it.
I don't understand the others who protect their handicaps and if the others in this thread haven't seen or heard this then they are either one of them or have their head buried in the sand!
		
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Were you happy being excluded by your band of "low" handicap players when you were off 22 and coming down?

Edit, I have no doubt handicaps protectors exist. I don't care though, golf is about me and the score I shoot rather than worrying if someone has 2 shots more than they could play to.

Why are you worried about others? If you're that desperate to win comps rather than reduce your handicap why don't you do the same? (I'm not condoning that before anyone jumps on me!)


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## 6inchcup (Apr 18, 2015)

Oxfordcomma said:



			After one of the other recent threads on this I went through the results of all of the past comps at my club, going back a couple of years (it was a boring night when Mrs Comma had gone to bed early). I wanted to know if it really was true - do low handicappers have a disadvantage when they play in club comps against Cat 4 players with 20+ handicaps?

The results were quite surprising.

Cat 1 golfers make up 6% of our membership. They win 18% of comps.
Cat 4 golfers make up 23% of our membership. They win 14% of comps.

I wasn't bored enough to do a true statistical analysis but this suggests to me very strongly that although people everywhere perceive that "A low capper can't live with the Cat 4s", that perception is actually just plain wrong. They can and do.
		
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thanks for that,im just more worried that your wife has an early night and you google golf stats !!!!!!!!!


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## Oxfordcomma (Apr 18, 2015)

6inchcup said:



thanks for that,im just more worried that your wife has an early night and you google golf stats !!!!!!!!!
		
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Google didn't come into it, this was much sadder, it was a manually compiled spreadsheet! But there was a thread on here winding me up and nothing on TV, so ...


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## Markw (Apr 18, 2015)

NWJocko said:



			Were you happy being excluded by your band of "low" handicap players when you were off 22 and coming down?
		
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Are you stating this as fact, you seem to be guessing? I was as happy as they was, me for the golf I was playing and they was happy for me and the fact I was entering all cards!
My so called band of low handicap players are infact 14hc, 16hc and 18hc but are honest golfers whose handicaps are correct, they aren't going to pull a 43 pointer out the bag every week!


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## NWJocko (Apr 18, 2015)

Markw said:



			Are you stating this as fact? I was as happy as they was, me for the golf I was playing and they was happy for me and the fact I was entering all cards!
		
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I'm not stating anything my man, asking a question :thup:

You're castigating people that are in the position you've been in if I'm reading you're posts correctly? Did you win anything when you were shooting 40+ points comfortably out of interest?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 18, 2015)

NWJocko said:





NWJocko said:



			I see this has been ignored as it doesn't fit the argument that only high handicap Mexican, horse riding bandidos can score more than 40 points.......

IMO it depends why you play. I couldn't give a monkeys about winning comps really, I want to get better, shoot lower scores and hopefully reduce my handicap every time I tee it up.

Winning comps I really never think about. 

It seems some folk are desperate to win comps but lose out to high(er) (7 isn't low IMO) handicaps and throw their toys out of the pram.
		
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Our last bunch of comps have been won by 

Two 5 HC - I won one on CB from another 5 HC

We have also has a 13 HC , a 28 newbie , 13 improving youngster and a 26 HC youngster 

It wouldn't surprise me to see the same at most clubs 

Fully agree with the whole of your post
		
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## Tiger man (Apr 18, 2015)

Oxfordcomma said:



			After one of the other recent threads on this I went through the results of all of the past comps at my club, going back a couple of years (it was a boring night when Mrs Comma had gone to bed early). I wanted to know if it really was true - do low handicappers have a disadvantage when they play in club comps against Cat 4 players with 20+ handicaps?

The results were quite surprising.

Cat 1 golfers make up 6% of our membership. They win 18% of comps.
Cat 4 golfers make up 23% of our membership. They win 14% of comps.

I wasn't bored enough to do a true statistical analysis but this suggests to me very strongly that although people everywhere perceive that "A low capper can't live with the Cat 4s", that perception is actually just plain wrong. They can and do.
		
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Pie chart would have made my day


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## NWJocko (Apr 18, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:





NWJocko said:



			Our last bunch of comps have been won by 

Two 5 HC - I won one on CB from another 5 HC

We have also has a 13 HC , a 28 newbie , 13 improving youngster and a 26 HC youngster 

It wouldn't surprise me to see the same at most clubs 

Fully agree with the whole of your post
		
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Yep, there's a mix of handicaps win comps at my place, though we have divisions aswell each week.

Never looked at it statistically (and never will as I'm not that bothered!) but what oxfordcomma found at his club, greater proportion of comps won by lower handicappers, would be fairly typical I expect aswell.

Liverbirdie got 44 odd points round Wallasey last year (-1/2 gross of c. 5 h'cap). Hugely impressive, just shows low handicap gofers can throw in exceptional scores aswell.
		
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## Markw (Apr 18, 2015)

NWJocko said:



			I'm not stating anything my man, asking a question :thup:

You're castigating people that are in the position you've been in if I'm reading you're posts correctly? Did you win anything when you were shooting 40+ points comfortably out of interest?
		
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You're not reading everything then, There is a difference, I won lots but no one could accuse me of protecting my handicap as it was common knowledge I was getting cut 2 or 3 every month.
I personally know of some that score 42-43 points regularly and score 38-39pts in comps so they don't get cut.


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## Darren24 (Apr 18, 2015)

Well I would like to point out to mark and 6inch that I am trying my hardest to get down. I set a minimum target of 18 this year, I also have lessons spending my hard earned cash, I practice as mush as time lets me and I'm not arsed about winning I would love to get down to a level I would feel happy playing at and not being worried of people judging me of a high handicap. One thing is for sure is I would never judge another person if they had a high handicap. At the end of the day we all have to start somewhere.


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## NWJocko (Apr 18, 2015)

Markw said:



			You're not reading everything then, There is a difference, I won lots but no one could accuse me of protecting my handicap as it was common knowledge I was getting cut 2 or 3 every month.
I personally know of some that score 42-43 points regularly and score 38-39pts in comps so they don't get cut.
		
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How do you know what people score in bounce games?!

If you "know" (I.e. have evidence) they are protecting their handicaps have you mentioned it to your club?
have these scores/players done you out of any wins by any chance?


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## Darren24 (Apr 18, 2015)

Oh and I ain't won a bean FYI.


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## NWJocko (Apr 18, 2015)

Darren24 said:



			Well I would like to point out to mark and 6inch that I am trying my hardest to get down. I set a minimum target of 18 this year, I also have lessons spending my hard earned cash, I practice as mush as time lets me and I'm not arsed about winning I would love to get down to a level I would feel happy playing at and not being worried of people judging me of a high handicap. One thing is for sure is I would never judge another person if they had a high handicap. At the end of the day we all have to start somewhere.
		
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Thankfully they are the exception rather than the rule :thup:

Stick in, there are very few golfers "judge" others because of their handicap.

I've got a 7 handicap on paper but can comfortably play to a 40 odd handicap on any given day!


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## Markw (Apr 18, 2015)

Darren24 said:



			Well I would like to point out to mark and 6inch that I am trying my hardest to get down. I set a minimum target of 18 this year, I also have lessons spending my hard earned cash, I practice as mush as time lets me and I'm not arsed about winning I would love to get down to a level I would feel happy playing at and not being worried of people judging me of a high handicap. One thing is for sure is I would never judge another person if they had a high handicap. At the end of the day we all have to start somewhere.
		
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No one is judging Darren, I play with all handicappers from 0-28 and that's the point I'm trying to get across, their are some that are not like yourself who is trying their hardest to get their handicap down, unfortunately every club has them and they can throw a 38-39 pointer in the club comps and not get cut or very little, while scoring much higher scores in other rounds regularly.


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## louise_a (Apr 18, 2015)

I really do not get all the moaning about high handicappers, if they play well they come down. I started at 34 and won a few competitions and quickly came down to 24, I have then steadily got down to 12. We have players in the 30 handicap range who win and they get cut. That's the point of the handicap system.
I would back myself to beat a high handicapper on any given day, and I would expect to win 9 out of 10 times, because lower handicappers play steadier than high handicappers, on the 10th time they would play far better than normal or I would have a particularly bad day and they would beat me.


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## Markw (Apr 18, 2015)

NWJocko said:



			How do you know what people score in bounce games?!

If you "know" (I.e. have evidence) they are protecting their handicaps have you mentioned it to your club?
have these scores/players done you out of any wins by any chance?
		
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I play with a lot of lifelong friends and know a lot of people at the club, have actually played with them as well so these things cannot be kept secret. The club are aware and do look into it.
I don't enter many comps now so no they have never done my out of anything.


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## Markw (Apr 18, 2015)

louise_a said:



			I really do not get all the moaning about high handicappers, if they play well they come down. I started at 34 and won a few competitions and quickly came down to 24, I have then steadily got down to 12. We have players in the 30 handicap range who win and they get cut. That's the point of the handicap system.
I would back myself to beat a high handicapper on any given day, and I would expect to win 9 out of 10 times, because lower handicappers play steadier than high handicappers, on the 10th time they would play far better than normal or I would have a particularly bad day and they would beat me.
		
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Louise, its not the high handicappers who are trying to improve, its the ones that could comfortably be lower but put in a high enough score to not get cut but win, every club has them.


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## NWJocko (Apr 18, 2015)

Markw said:



			I play with a lot of lifelong friends and know a lot of people at the club, have actually played with them as well so these things cannot be kept secret. The club are aware and do look into it.
I don't enter many comps now so no they have never done my out of anything.
		
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So.....

If you're not entering comps do you see yourself as a target for protecting your handicap if/when you improve?

Gossip at golf club is very reliable though :rofl: if the club "look into it" and don't do anything then what do you take from that?


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## Siren (Apr 18, 2015)

Darren24 said:



			Well I played today in stableford comp and the two gentlemen who I was playing with started the round before I had even hit a ball with comments like " 24, I wouldn't give you more than 18" and "the handicap committee were nice to you hay" bearing in mind I did not know these blokes I thought oh so this is going to be interesting or I'm going to hate it. Anyway nothing changed and they could not help but make smarmy remarks so to say it was one round I really did not enjoy. If I played a good shot they fell silent but then when I hit a bad one they made comments. These two blokes were in there 60's and both played off around 10. My question is why do people have to act like this just because I'm a high handicapper and im young. Just for your information I scored 31 points and they scored 26 and 32. I walked away quite upset and to be honest I think after the 4th hole I just wanted to walk off and tell them to shove it. I was looking so forward to this comp as we don't have many stableford comps and I knew I could of played better but I lost interest after the comments did not stop.
		
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What your going to find is that many of the older generation have this belief nobody should have a handicap of 18 and they lived in a world when if they hit a decent drive they were docked a shot for general play.

Block them out, and ill be honest my club has a list of people I refuse to be drawn out with for more or less the problems youve had today. As wweird as this may sound 3 of the 5 people on my list came over to shake my hand last week and congratulate me on getting to single figures. It really is just a case of the old boys club.

Dont let it affect you or your golf, keep on playing and enjoying and your handicap will come down in no time :thup:


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## Siren (Apr 18, 2015)

louise_a said:



			I really do not get all the moaning about high handicappers, if they play well they come down. I started at 34 and won a few competitions and quickly came down to 24, I have then steadily got down to 12. We have players in the 30 handicap range who win and they get cut. That's the point of the handicap system.
I would back myself to beat a high handicapper on any given day, and I would expect to win 9 out of 10 times, because lower handicappers play steadier than high handicappers, on the 10th time they would play far better than normal or I would have a particularly bad day and they would beat me.
		
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Best post ive read on here in a long time :thup:


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## Markw (Apr 18, 2015)

NWJocko said:



			So.....

If you're not entering comps do you see yourself as a target for protecting your handicap if/when you improve?

Gossip at golf club is very reliable though :rofl: if the club "look into it" and don't do anything then what do you take from that?
		
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Some may say that until they see the scores I put in the few comps I do enter! like yourself I can play to 40hc!
Not into listening to gossip but they don't last forever and another takes there place!


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## NWJocko (Apr 18, 2015)

Markw said:



			Some may say that until they see the scores I put in the few comps I do enter! like yourself I can play to 40hc!
Not into listening to gossip but they don't last forever and another takes there place!
		
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You're last sentence.

Does that bit just mean that one tranche of improvers have been cut to their plateau to be taken by the next tranche? As you were at one point?

As I say, I'm sure there is the odd sandbagger around but less than "lower" handicaps would portray IMO.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 18, 2015)

Markw said:



			Louise, its not the high handicappers who are trying to improve, its the ones that could comfortably be lower but put in a high enough score to not get cut but win, every club has them.
		
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How do they know the score they need to win? and surely they would then be cut?


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## Markw (Apr 18, 2015)

NWJocko said:



			You're last sentence.

Does that bit just mean that one tranche of improvers have been cut to their plateau to be taken by the next tranche? As you were at one point?

As I say, I'm sure there is the odd sandbagger around but less than "lower" handicaps would portray IMO.
		
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There are not many  but they do exist, the four that have been made known at our club, 3 have left and 1 is still there at a slightly lower level but regularly scoring to his handicap.


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## Markw (Apr 18, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			How do they know the score they need to win? and surely they would then be cut?
		
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38-39 will get you in the higher scoring in our comps 10 pts for 1st through to 1pt for 10th.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 18, 2015)

Markw said:



			38-39 will get you in the higher scoring in our comps 10 pts for 1st through to 1pt for 10th.
		
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2nd-9th isn't winning and surely the CSS will see them cut? They can't consistently be scoring 38-39 points whilst being cut.


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## Markw (Apr 18, 2015)

pauldj42 said:



			2nd-9th isn't winning and surely the CSS will see them cut? They can't consistently be scoring 38-39 points whilst being cut.
		
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Its a year long comp so regular high scores while not getting cut will put you in a good position to win. 38-39pts normally wont even get a cut.


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## louise_a (Apr 18, 2015)

So 38-39 wont get a cut? which means it must be around the buffer zone and if you play to your buffer you too will be scoring similar points.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 19, 2015)

Markw said:



			Its a year long comp so regular high scores while not getting cut will put you in a good position to win. 38-39pts normally wont even get a cut.
		
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Oh right, never heard of a year long comp were you stay on the same handicap despite playing under it.
In fairness I wouldn't enter that either
&#128515;


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 19, 2015)

louise_a said:



			So 38-39 wont get a cut? which means it must be around the buffer zone and if you play to your buffer you too will be scoring similar points.
		
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&#128077;...


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## shortstuff (Apr 19, 2015)

Darren24 said:



			Well I played today in stableford comp and the two gentlemen who I was playing with started the round before I had even hit a ball with comments like " 24, I wouldn't give you more than 18" and "the handicap committee were nice to you hay" bearing in mind I did not know these blokes I thought oh so this is going to be interesting or I'm going to hate it. Anyway nothing changed and they could not help but make smarmy remarks so to say it was one round I really did not enjoy. If I played a good shot they fell silent but then when I hit a bad one they made comments. These two blokes were in there 60's and both played off around 10. My question is why do people have to act like this just because I'm a high handicapper and im young. Just for your information I scored 31 points and they scored 26 and 32. I walked away quite upset and to be honest I think after the 4th hole I just wanted to walk off and tell them to shove it. I was looking so forward to this comp as we don't have many stableford comps and I knew I could of played better but I lost interest after the comments did not stop.
		
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Every club has them. A right miserable couple that never stop moaning and always looking to blame someone for something. Usually old boys that will never get lower than a 12-14 HCP.

Don't let this put you off comps.


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## Smiffy (Apr 19, 2015)

TopOfTheFlop said:



			I get it quite a lot Darren.
		
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You surprise me Craig
:rofl:


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## TopOfTheFlop (Apr 19, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			You surprise me Craig
:rofl:
		
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## Fish (Apr 19, 2015)

Markw said:



			Its a year long comp so regular high scores while not getting cut will put you in a good position to win. 38-39pts normally wont even get a cut.
		
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I just don't get this statement, if its a qualifying for handicap comp and you score better even by just 1 shot, your getting cut, end of!  I understand there being an order of merit scoring profile for over the year which rewards consistency but if its based on al qualifying comps that can be also won individually, then they'll get cut, and if they shoot better out of their buffer more than twice then a ESR will be applied and I'm sure if they were in the frame all year I'd be expecting an annual revenue to reflect that, if they (handicap committee/club) don't, its your club that's the issue here not any players!

Also, in bounce/sweep games, we cut amongst ourselves, a winner gets cut 2 shots and only goes up each week by 1 shot when he doesn't back to his handicap level. Maybe you should introduce that, it sounds more like your club and you as individuals aren't very organised and are looking for someone else to blame when you don't win


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## SAPCOR1 (Apr 19, 2015)

I would have told them to shut the #*>^ up.  The atmosphere was already poisoned so you had nothing to lose and hopefully would have made them feel the same way they made you feel


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## JT77 (Apr 19, 2015)

^^^^^^^^
What he said. 

Hope you get some better company next time out bud.


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## morgs (Apr 19, 2015)

My official handicap before I left my old club was 24 this was due to it being just shy of 7000 yards with a par of 73 and not being a big hitter would/ and did struggle with some of the longer holes. I'm in the process of joining a club of which I had been a member before which plays shorter at 5700 yards with a par of 70. I know for a fact I can score well on this course ( won the pro's day many years ago and got slated for doing so), and have in recent weeks as a guest played voluntarily off 18 which I feel is a playable and fairer handicap for the course.  As a high handicapper I'm not interested in protecting my handicap, I'm not interested in winning the comps I enter, although they would be a bonus, I just want to get as low as I can, have fun doing it and enjoy playing the game.


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## North Mimms (Apr 19, 2015)

morgs said:



			My official handicap before I left my old club was 24 this was due to it being just shy of 7000 yards with a par of 73 and not being a big hitter would/ and did struggle with some of the longer holes. I'm in the process of joining a club of which I had been a member before which plays shorter at 5700 yards with a par of 70. I know for a fact I can score well on this course ( won the pro's day many years ago and got slated for doing so), and have in recent weeks as a guest played voluntarily off 18 which I feel is a playable and fairer handicap for the course.  As a high handicapper I'm not interested in protecting my handicap, I'm not interested in winning the comps I enter, although they would be a bonus, I just want to get as low as I can, have fun doing it and enjoy playing the game.
		
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Put in supplementary cards at your new course, hopefully hcp will come down to a more realistic figure and no-one will accuse you of being a bandit


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## Face breaker (Apr 19, 2015)

I don't understand this "Handicap" business, as far as I'm concerned the rules of golf are far more complicated than they ever needed to be !...


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## Siren (Apr 19, 2015)

Markw said:



			You're not reading everything then, There is a difference, I won lots but no one could accuse me of protecting my handicap as it was common knowledge I was getting cut 2 or 3 every month.
I personally know of some that score 42-43 points regularly and score 38-39pts in comps so they don't get cut.
		
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38-39 points will get you cut in a competition. If 38-39 points is buffer at your club then then either the course is ridiculously easy or the people running it dont know what their doing. Shooting 3 under your handicap in qualifiers consistently will get you cut.


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## Ando2600 (Apr 19, 2015)

Personally I think that a shot a hole is plenty for a fully grown,non disabled, non elderly male on an ordinary golf course.  People who keep such handicaps long term tend to be physically limited, infrequent players, or bandits. Two out of those three are not a problem obviously. Aside from deliberate handicap protection, there is a problem in the system with new and improving players if improvement goes faster than hcp reduction.  However, I wouldn't try to make someone feel bad for using the handicap the system gives them - that's the rules of the game so it's entirley fair enough. If its a mate who I'm playing and he pars a two shot hol there will be some banter though. My hcp is 13 by the way, and I've been off 19 and felt slightly guilty for winning medals at that hcp. Didn't hand back the trophy or the cash though! Sometimes I like the level(ish) playing field of the system other times I think it's odd that it rewards mediocrity!


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## garyinderry (Apr 19, 2015)

Bandits don't tend to play off 20+ handicaps.   they are usually low to mid teens who could easily be single figure handicappers but avoid being so by various methods.


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## wrighty1874 (Apr 19, 2015)

We normally divisionalise our comps but yesterday was the annual Pro's comp day.Otherwise I would have won the Div1 nett , but I'm only interested in the gross results and in that I came second.


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## Old Skier (Apr 19, 2015)

Oxfordcomma said:



			I wasn't bored enough to do a true statistical analysis but this suggests to me very strongly that although people everywhere perceive that "A low capper can't live with the Cat 4s", that perception is actually just plain wrong. They can and do.
		
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Most low handicappers that moan about high handicappers are normally playing of too low a handicap. In my experience a good low handicapper comes out on top more times than the high handicapper.

Clubs will need to look at how comps are run and look at having divisions in their comps. The times they are changing.


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## Old Skier (Apr 19, 2015)

Siren said:



			38-39 points will get you cut in a competition. If 38-39 points is buffer at your club then then either the course is ridiculously easy or the people running it dont know what their doing. Shooting 3 under your handicap in qualifiers consistently will get you cut.
		
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As you obviously know what your doing can you expand on when points scored came into defining whether a player gets cut or not. Up until yesterday it was based on the CSS on the day.


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## Siren (Apr 19, 2015)

My comment was more based on the belief that assuming a its a par 72 course the CSS is not going to be 69 (-3) for every competition. I genuinely do not believe theres a normal club in the world where this happens. So far this year our CSS has been par once and +1 once +2 twice.

Even if it was the unlikely case that every competition css was -3 then ESR's would be still be used for those consistently shooting over 36pts to normalize the scoring.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 19, 2015)

Not ploughing through the whole thread but to the OP I'd say don't let it put you off competitive play and ignore idiots like this. A lot of clubs have dinosaurs but most members are perfectly decent welcoming and won't be as provocative in a competitive environment. Perhaps they felt intimidated. Whatever their reasons, you did well to rise above it, see it through until the end and post a reasonable score. Chin up, put it down as one of those things and move on to the next comp and a chance to get a cut


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## Siren (Apr 19, 2015)

Siren said:



			My comment was more based on the belief that assuming a its a par 72 course the CSS is not going to be 69 (-3) for every competition. I genuinely do not believe theres a normal club in the world where this happens. So far this year our CSS has been par once and +1 once +2 twice.

Even if it was the unlikely case that every competition css was -3 then ESR's would be still be used for those consistently shooting over 36pts to normalize the scoring.
		
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Made a plonker of myself here as CSS can only go -1 of SSS so consistently shooting 1/2 shots better than that will always get you cut. I think ive read the rules correctly now.


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## NorfolkShaun (Apr 19, 2015)

I really think to OP was unlucky with the guys you played with, really hope you get a better draw next time.



garyinderry said:



			Bandits don't tend to play off 20+ handicaps.   they are usually low to mid teens who could easily be single figure handicappers but avoid being so by various methods.
		
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This is so true, I think the odd 20+ guy can have a good game but most handicap protectors I have seen play off 13-17 and could easily play lower.

As for match play i think a guy off 5 should easily beat a guy off 25, i suspect the guy off 5 would just push the other guy into trying shots that are above their ability and they would fail more often than not

As for the max handicap I think you should get what you need. I have seen people who love golf fall out of the game because they never get near breaking 100 or playing to 28. This is not good for the game we need to encourage everyone who want to play and give them the chance to compete and if they have a good day and win fantastic even if they get 41 points when i get 37 good luck to them hopefully this will encourage them to play more.


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## North Mimms (Apr 19, 2015)

What I find really sad, is that these unwelcoming rude players are on the committee


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## NorfolkShaun (Apr 19, 2015)

North Mimms said:



			What I find really sad, is that these unwelcoming rude players are on the committee
		
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That's so true, maybe they feel superior


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 19, 2015)

North Mimms said:



			What I find really sad, is that these unwelcoming rude players are on the committee
		
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And that there are also variants on the forum


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 19, 2015)

North Mimms said:



			What I find really sad, is that these unwelcoming rude players are on the committee
		
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I agree and so the circle it seems won't be broken for a while and these ridiculous attitudes will persist


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## Old Skier (Apr 19, 2015)

North Mimms said:



			What I find really sad, is that these unwelcoming rude players are on the committee
		
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Usually because nobody else will do it.


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## Siren (Apr 19, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			Usually because nobody else will do it.
		
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Or people who try to get on he committee are never voted on because people like to reelect the same people. The problem at most AGM's is that they are usually attended by the senior members and dont have full representation. At our club the same people continue to get in ecause of this situation. Only a great effort from our new captain this year managed to get far more members than normal to attend and our committee has had a much needed shake up.


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## richart (Apr 19, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			You surprise me Craig
:rofl:
		
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Don't think I have ever mentioned it. Mind you I don't give Craig his shots, so it solves the problem.


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## Foxholer (Apr 19, 2015)

Siren said:



			My comment was more based on the belief that assuming a its a par 72 course the CSS is not going to be 69 (-3) for every competition. I genuinely do not believe theres a normal club in the world where this happens. So far this year our CSS has been par once and +1 once +2 twice.

Even if it was the unlikely case that every competition css was -3 then ESR's would be still be used for those consistently shooting over 36pts to normalize the scoring.
		
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Quite a few Par 68 or 69 courses with SSS of 65 or 66 resp about - most of the ones I know being in Scotland.

And ESRs only come into play when 2 rounds where player shoots 4 below handicap!


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## Val (Apr 19, 2015)

Markw said:



			Its a year long comp so regular high scores while not getting cut will put you in a good position to win. 38-39pts normally wont even get a cut.
		
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Why not? Is your CSS 3 under par?

This is either a wind up or is just social golf which in reality means nothing where handicaps are concerned.

No course should have a CSS 3 under par


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 19, 2015)

What I'd say to Darren is that he should remember that this issue or bitterness is *their* problem and not his.  He has done nothing wrong and should not take on board any of their silly bitterness.  It is their problem, he should completely dismiss it from his thoughts and not permit their problem in any way to become his.  Accepting that you can't change what people think can be difficult but that's what he should do.  Just let it go completely and act with them as if it never happened.


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## TopOfTheFlop (Apr 19, 2015)

True Richard and it nearly turned out alright 




richart said:



			Don't think I have ever mentioned it. Mind you I don't give Craig his shots, so it solves the problem.

Click to expand...


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## richart (Apr 19, 2015)

TopOfTheFlop said:



			True Richard and it nearly turned out alright 

Click to expand...

 Fancy your chances before I go to Ireland next Sunday ?


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## palindromicbob (Apr 20, 2015)

Val said:



			Why not? Is your CSS 3 under par?

This is either a wind up or is just social golf which in reality means nothing where handicaps are concerned.

*No course should have a CSS 3 under par*

Click to expand...

Why?


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## robert.redmile (Apr 20, 2015)

I'm one of these high handicappers that scores 40 points plus every time it's a chuck up' or a round with mates - 2 weeks ago, scored 46 with 3 blobs.

But then on saturday I went round in 100 in the monthly medal! Best score in stroke play comp is 96.....

i guess I'll be one of them high handicap bandits soon , that scores 8 under their handicap in a comp to be greeted by a chorus of abuse!! 

Thats despite the the fact that I would bet there is no one that will have worked harder on their game than me this year, .......


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## Smiffy (Apr 20, 2015)

I absolutely love handing the money over to players that can shoot the lights out when playing with friends in bounce games but claim they can't do it in competitive play.
It makes losing all the more worthwhile.....


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## delc (Apr 20, 2015)

H



robert.redmile said:



			I'm one of these high handicappers that scores 40 points plus every time it's a chuck up' or a round with mates - 2 weeks ago, scored 46 with 3 blobs.

But then on saturday I went round in 100 in the monthly medal! Best score in stroke play comp is 96.....

i guess I'll be one of them high handicap bandits soon , that scores 8 under their handicap in a comp to be greeted by a chorus of abuse!! 

Thats despite the the fact that I would bet there is no one that will have worked harder on their game than me this year, .......
		
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Yeah, Yeah, heard all that before! High handicap guy takes your money after scoring 40+ points in a bounce game and then says that he can't play nearly that well in comps! 

Perhaps we should adopt the USGA system where ALL rounds count towards your handicap. :mmm:

P.S. Sorry to sound like a bitter old golfer!


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## shortstuff (Apr 20, 2015)

delc said:



			H
Yeah, Yeah, heard all that before! High handicap guy takes your money after scoring 40+ points in a bounce game and then says that he can't play nearly that well in comps! 

Perhaps we should adopt the USGA system where ALL rounds count towards your handicap. :mmm:

P.S. Sorry to sound like a bitter old golfer! 

Click to expand...

Ha ha, come on Del this is normal. Lots of high handicappers score well in match-play/stableford because their disaster holes don't count, but in stroke-play their card is wrecked by a few disaster holes. It's why I play in more stroke-play comps.


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## delc (Apr 20, 2015)

shortstuff said:



			Ha ha, come on Del this is normal. Lots of high handicappers score well in match-play/stableford because their disaster holes don't count, but in stroke-play their card is wrecked by a few disaster holes. It's why I play in more stroke-play comps.
		
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From a handicapping point of view, there is no difference between a medal and a Stableford, because disaster holes only count as a nett double bogey, or zero points in either format. I was referring more to golfers who play well in friendly/bounce games, but not in competitions. They are either deliberate bandits, or players whose game falls to pieces under the pressure of playing in a competition!


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## Val (Apr 20, 2015)

palindromicbob said:



			Why?
		
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Well technically they could but I had a think about this and I think I only know of one which is way out in the sticks, Dunaverty on the Mull of Kintyre.

So while the could in reality there aren't many about.


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## Foxholer (Apr 20, 2015)

Val said:



			Well technically they could but I had a think about this and I think I only know of one which is way out in the sticks, Dunaverty on the Mull of Kintyre.

So while the could in reality there aren't many about.
		
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Kilspindie is another example! Par 69 SSS 66. As I posted earlier, quite a few about - mainly in Scotland. Most of them are also a joy to play - normally short but tight, possibly with restricted amount of room - that was enough when they were developed, but not so 150 years or more later!


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## BoadieBroadus (Apr 20, 2015)

i had similar when i first started playing in comps, in my early 30's and was probably the only one in the club at that time. they guys i played with were a right miserable pair of sods. round wasn't greatly enjoyable.

fortunately the next week i was paired with two guys who played in a larger group, and was invited in to play with their group every week. they all became friends and came to wedding etc years later.

so keep on entering comps and sooner rather than later you will be paired with guys who you get on well with and you will find a whole host of friends / playing partners. its the way with every club when you first join.

there was probably a very good reason that these two guys were on the sheet with an empty slot. I'd have a word with the pro maybe and see if he can suggest a more suitably group to be drawn with...


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## gazr99 (Apr 20, 2015)

I'm laughing at those saying if you have a high handicap perform well with mates but then rubbish in competitions you must be bandit or can't cope with the pressure of competitions. Last time I checked this was golf and no day is ever the same. I for one play of 20 and I can go from shooting around 40 points one round to 24 the next, competition or no competition. 

I had it before where I had only hit under my handicap twice in a competition then hit my best ever round in one. If we had the ability to control how well we played, we would be professionals.


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## Val (Apr 20, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Kilspindie is another example! Par 69 SSS 66. As I posted earlier, quite a few about - mainly in Scotland. Most of them are also a joy to play - normally short but tight, possibly with restricted amount of room - that was enough when they were developed, but not so 150 years or more later!
		
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It was after you commented last night I gave it a thought and although I know of many 2 under I didnt think there was any at 3 under until I had a think.

I will say though although SSS is 3 under it doesn't mean CSS will follow though especially on coastal courses where it gets windy 

edit to add, I agree some of these short courses are superb, Dunaverty is an absolute gem.


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## Foxholer (Apr 20, 2015)

Val said:



			...
edit to add, I agree some of these short courses are superb, Dunaverty is an absolute gem.
		
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As is Kilspindie!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2015)

shortstuff said:



			Ha ha, come on Del this is normal. Lots of high handicappers score well in match-play/stableford because their disaster holes don't count, but in stroke-play their card is wrecked by a few disaster holes. It's why I play in more stroke-play comps.
		
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My regular Saturday roll-up has a simple way of trying to limit regular wins by any one player.  We start the season (clocks go forward) with roll-up handicap equal to club handicap.  The winner will get his roll-up handicap cut by 1/10th the winners pot.  Say there are 24 of you and the winners pot is Â£15 then the winners roll-up handicap is cut by 1.5.  And on throughout the season.  You quickly get those who can't play in medals but are good in stableford with a roll-up handicap consistent with their stableford scoring ability.


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## Smiffy (Apr 20, 2015)

I look on it as a charity donation and would prefer to hand the money over in the pro shop before going out so it doesn't make too much noise jangling around in my pocket for the short space of time I'm holding on to it.


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## Val (Apr 20, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			As is Kilspindie!
		
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Never had the pleasure yet


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## NWJocko (Apr 20, 2015)

Val said:



			Never had the pleasure yet
		
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Well worth it Val, great little course :thup:

Probably gets less attention/visitors due to what's round the bay in Gullane, and also the other side with Craigielaw more recently.


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## delc (Apr 20, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My regular Saturday roll-up has a simple way of trying to limit regular wins by any one player.  We start the season (clocks go forward) with roll-up handicap equal to club handicap.  The winner will get his roll-up handicap cut by 1/10th the winners pot.  Say there are 24 of you and the winners pot is Â£15 then the winners roll-up handicap is cut by 1.5.  And on throughout the season.  You quickly get those who can't play in medals but are good in stableford with a roll-up handicap consistent with their stableford scoring ability.
		
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Yes, most of the regular swindles, roll ups and playing groups at our club do something similar, I.e. run their own separate handicapping systems. Not much help if you play against strangers with official club handicaps though!


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## Foxholer (Apr 20, 2015)

delc said:



			Yes, most of the regular swindles, roll ups and playing groups at our club do something similar, I.e. run their own separate handicapping systems. Not much help if you play against strangers with official handicaps though!
		
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Then you simply adjust it by the average difference that the rest of the group are from their official handicaps.


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## shortstuff (Apr 20, 2015)

delc said:



			Yes, most of the regular swindles, roll ups and playing groups at our club do something similar, I.e. run their own separate handicapping systems. Not much help if you play against strangers with official club handicaps though! 

Click to expand...

Or those new joiners put on a handicap of "17". Or those that every year put in their mandatory 3 cards at the start of the season and then only play in stableford and match-play comps - forever playing off 18-24. Getting grumpier by the minute here!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2015)

delc said:



			Yes, most of the regular swindles, roll ups and playing groups at our club do something similar, I.e. run their own separate handicapping systems. Not much help if you play against strangers with official club handicaps though! 

Click to expand...

That's true.  But if they are visitors it's nice that you can give them a friendly welcome and they come away having played well and got in the frame.

Played a friendly 4BBB with three guys who don't play that much without handicaps.  So I gave them each 18 shots (fpor simplicity sake - fool that I am) .  Got a bit monotonous me having to hole birdie putts for halves with the guy who used to play off 14 years ago but thought he was more like 24-28 today. Hmm.

Anyway.  We halved the match (courtesy of my partner missing an 18"er for a half on the last  )


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## evahakool (Apr 20, 2015)

Op



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That's true.  But if they are visitors it's nice that you can give them a friendly welcome and they come away having played well and got in the frame.

Played a friendly 4BBB with three guys who don't play that much without handicaps.  So I gave them each 18 shots (fpor simplicity sake - fool that I am) .  Got a bit monotonous me having to hole birdie putts for halves with the guy who used to play off 14 years ago but thought he was more like 24-28 today. Hmm.

Anyway.  We halved the match (courtesy of my partner missing an 18"er for a half on the last  )
		
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Hmm yet you halved the match and if that put had gone in you would have won.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 20, 2015)

evahakool said:



			Op

Hmm yet you halved the match and if that put had gone in you would have won.

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yes - I played pretty well


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## Markw (Apr 20, 2015)

shortstuff said:



			Or those new joiners put on a handicap of "17". Or those that every year put in their mandatory 3 cards at the start of the season and then only play in stableford and match-play comps - forever playing off 18-24. Getting grumpier by the minute here!
		
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That's a good idea, start everyone new or currently 19+ off 18hc, shot a hole is plenty. Then they will either go up or down as appropriate, might even give some an incentive to play better or improve their course management instead of having it easy scoring these 43pts with 3 blobs etc, I honestly think if the maximum was 18 then a lot of players would improve quickly!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2015)

Markw said:



			That's a good idea, start everyone new off 18hc, shot a hole is plenty. Then they will either go up or down as appropriate, might even give some an incentive to play better or improve their course management instead of having it easy scoring these 43pts with 3 blobs etc, I honestly think if the maximum was 18 then a lot of players would improve quickly!
		
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And what about the guy who clearly is a 28 HC and he struggles to get anywhere near 30 points and gives up the game after 6 months 

Make it a maximum of 18 and I reckon you would lose around 30 perfect of golfers - maybe more 

It's amazing that I very rarely here of these massive scores you keep talking about


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## Region3 (Apr 20, 2015)

Markw said:



			That's a good idea, start everyone new or currently 19+ off 18hc, shot a hole is plenty. Then they will either go up or down as appropriate, might even give some an incentive to play better or improve their course management instead of having it easy scoring these 43pts with 3 blobs etc, I honestly think if the maximum was 18 then a lot of players would improve quickly!
		
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Or some people just aren't very good. Not their fault, probably desperate to get lower, but the talent and/or time to play just isn't there.

That isn't a reason to persecute them into a miserable time every time they step onto the course with little to no chance of playing to handicap.

As others have said, the real sandbaggers tend to hang around in the low-mid teens.


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## Old Skier (Apr 20, 2015)

There's going to be a lot of bitter golfers next year after CONGUs May meeting judging by some of the folks on here who must have been naturals and started playing golf of a handicap of less than 18.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 20, 2015)

Quite happy to rock up at my club in a roll up (and we have many off 25-28) or in a comp and pay my fee. All I can do is control my own ball and my own score. If someone plays better then that's how it goes. As long as my handicap starts going the right way (please god make that soon) then that's it. If I was worried about bandits why bother joining a club and playing comps? I think (maybe I've been lucky) that most places I've played at, there hasn't been too many proper bandits, those deliberately manipulating their handicap and protecting it. There have been a couple but these usually get rooted out


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## upsidedown (Apr 20, 2015)

Top six from our Extra Medal yesterday, par 71 CSS 74

	81 - 21 = 60		
	88 - 18 = 70		
	78 - 8 = 70	
	94 - 24 = 70		
	97 - 26 = 71	
        94 - 23 = 71

Well played guys   And one in particular !! now off 17 :thup:


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## Markw (Apr 20, 2015)

Region3 said:



			Or some people just aren't very good. Not their fault, probably desperate to get lower, but the talent and/or time to play just isn't there.

That isn't a reason to persecute them into a miserable time every time they step onto the course with little to no chance of playing to handicap.

As others have said, the real sandbaggers tend to hang around in the low-mid teens.
		
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Most high handicappers that I have seen who are members at a club can hit a ball reasonably even if not consistently, they nearly all fall down with course management or taking on shots out of the range of their ability, I really do believe if players started on 18 but could go up or down, more would improve quicker. If they was a genuine higher handicap then they would go up and find a level but it would make them think more into achieving a better score. I occasionally play with two guys in their 70's who are both single figure hc and don't particularly hit it straight on longer shots or over 180yds with a driver but they think their way around.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2015)

Markw said:



			Most high handicappers that I have seen who are members at a club can hit a ball reasonably even if not consistently, they nearly all fall down with course management or taking on shots out of the range of their ability, I really do believe if players started on 18 but could go up or down, more would improve quicker. If they was a genuine higher handicap then they would go up and find a level but it would make them think more into achieving a better score. I occasionally play with two guys in their 70's who are both single figure hc and don't particularly hit it straight on longer shots or over 180yds with a driver but they think their way around.
		
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You do realise you suggestion would actually mean some would just stop playing as they wouldn't ever have a prayer of playing to an 18 HC ever - in fact some struggle to get 36 points of a mid 20 HC ?! 

It's going to be amusing when they actually increase the maximum HC allowance to encourage more people to play the game


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## garyinderry (Apr 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's going to be amusing when they actually increase the maximum HC allowance to encourage more people to play the game
		
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Really?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Really?
		
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Yeah lots of noises from the appropriate people with the suggestions of increases of HC for both Male and Female players


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## Markw (Apr 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You do realise you suggestion would actually mean some would just stop playing as they wouldn't ever have a prayer of playing to an 18 HC ever - in fact some struggle to get 36 points of a mid 20 HC ?! 

It's going to be amusing when they actually increase the maximum HC allowance to encourage more people to play the game
		
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Why would they stop playing? if you are serious enough about golf and improve to join a club then there shouldn't be a problem if starting off 18 and going up or down from there even with .3 or .4s going up and down. It would make you appreciate all aspects of the game from the start.


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## Markw (Apr 20, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Really?
		
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Can you imagine the posts on here, '7 hour round today stuck behind a 4 ball of 45 handicappers'


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2015)

Markw said:



			Why would they stop playing? if you are serious enough about golf and improve to join a club then there shouldn't be a problem if starting off 18 and going up or down from there even with .3 or .4s going up and down. It would make you appreciate all aspects of the game from the start.
		
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Because some players will never have the ability to play to 18 - some will only play to 28 and it will just destroy anyone in that area and they will just give up 

Have a guess what the average HC is in the UK 

A great deal of people just enjoy playing the game with their mates and take solace of the odd game where they creep above 36 points 

Making someone struggle as they start the game won't make them appreciate the game in fact IMO the total opposite and make them resent the game


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2015)

Markw said:



			Can you imagine the posts on here, '7 hour round today stuck behind a 4 ball of 45 handicappers'
		
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At least that's 4 people out playing the game and I bet they wouldn't look down on someone based on their HC and judge them based on their HC


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## garyinderry (Apr 20, 2015)

Markw said:



			Why would they stop playing? if you are serious enough about golf and improve to join a club then there shouldn't be a problem if starting off 18 and going up or down from there even with .3 or .4s going up and down. It would make you appreciate all aspects of the game from the start.
		
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I completely agree.  I have made these kind of comments before.  I agree that people will mostly likely think about course management a lot more without having loads of shots to go for 5point birdies. 

Lots a people want things handed to them. Giving men 30shots so they can compete from the off is ludicrous. Learn to play the game first.


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## upsidedown (Apr 20, 2015)

Markw said:



			'7 hour round today stuck behind a 4 ball of 45 handicappers'
		
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Played in NZ for six years where max handicaps are 38 men and 45 ladies and no , they are no slower than the rest of us and those that I played with were really good company


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 20, 2015)

Markw said:



			Why would they stop playing? if you are serious enough about golf and improve to join a club then there shouldn't be a problem if starting off 18 and going up or down from there even with .3 or .4s going up and down. It would make you appreciate all aspects of the game from the start.
		
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Sorry but I know lots of people that have take the game up at various time of their life and some are just happy to be a member and turn up and play while others want to get as low as they can. If you stick them off 18, many of those haven't got a snowball in hell chance of playing to that number and even if you plan higher increases (basically you're talking about reinventing the whole handicapping process again) they are still going to take an awful long time to get back to their 26, 27 or 28 mark where their ability lies


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			I completely agree.  I have made these kind of comments before.  I agree that people will mostly likely think about course management a lot more without having loads of shots to go for 5point birdies. 

Lots a people want things handed to them. Giving men 30shots so they can compete from the off is ludicrous. Learn to play the game first.
		
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It's Handicap club golf at the end of the day - the monthly stableford or medal 

The main emphasis is about getting as many as possible out there playing and enjoying themselves as much as possible , too encourage more people into the game , increase participation from all levels of ability and age and sex 

Yet some want to stop them until deemed "good enough"


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 20, 2015)

The biggest issue here is if you prevent anyone from having a chance to win even off 28 then you are going to preclude a lot of members they are going to get disenchanted and you will lose members. Golf will struggle and club will close


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## evahakool (Apr 20, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			I completely agree.  I have made these kind of comments before.  I agree that people will mostly likely think about course management a lot more without having loads of shots to go for 5point birdies. 

Lots a people want things handed to them. Giving men 30shots so they can compete from the off is ludicrous. Learn to play the game first.
		
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One of my brothers has been playing for over 30 years and has never been below 26h/c if he had to play off 18h/c he would never be able to play competitive golf again which would be a real shame for him as he loves the game.

I'm sure there are many older players that would be in the same situation , do you think this would be fair on them?


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## Markw (Apr 20, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			I completely agree.  I have made these kind of comments before.  I agree that people will mostly likely think about course management a lot more without having loads of shots to go for 5point birdies. 

Lots a people want things handed to them. Giving men 30shots so they can compete from the off is ludicrous. Learn to play the game first.
		
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Totally, nearly every high handicapper I've seen who plays regularly can hit a half decent ball most the time. They fall down with course management, trying to hit a 300yd drive or taking on shots tiger wouldn't attempt! The holes they get 2 shots on they still try and birdie it instead of using their shots to good effect and walking away with a good net score. Personally I like a challenge and I learn more quicker that way, a lot do learn from their mistakes and improve but I think having too many free shots is actually hindering some players.


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## chellie (Apr 20, 2015)

What about women? It's a lack of consistency that has stopped my handicap going down quicker than it has so far. It's certainly not through wanting to get my handicap down. Oh, and also having taken the game up at nearly 50 never having played any sport since junior school.

Perhaps I shouldn't be allowed out on a golf course although it doesn't seem to be a problem for the 4 h'capper I play golf with.


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## delc (Apr 20, 2015)

The European Golf Association rules allow for official handicaps up to 36 and "club" handicaps up to 45 for both men and women. I played with a couple of elderly Dutch guys with 40+ handicaps at Vilamoura a few years ago, and they still got round the course in a reasonable time. We have a few senior men and women at our club who could definitely use higher handicaps than those currently available in GB & I.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 20, 2015)

I don't actually see the size of the handicap having any relation to pace of play in the majority of cases. I play with many 28 handicappers in our roll up including a few relative newbies, and we still get round in under four hours on a Saturday morning in a four ball


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2015)

Markw said:



			Totally, nearly every high handicapper I've seen who plays regularly can hit a half decent ball most the time. They fall down with course management, trying to hit a 300yd drive or taking on shots tiger wouldn't attempt! The holes they get 2 shots on they still try and birdie it instead of using their shots to good effect and walking away with a good net score. Personally I like a challenge and I learn more quicker that way, a lot do learn from their mistakes and improve but I think having too many free shots is actually hindering some players.
		
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"Every" high HC ?!

Must be a different type of High HC than I have seen because most High HC I see struggle with a lot of areas of their game but can pull of the odd good shot but mainly keep coming back for the enjoyment of the game


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## Markw (Apr 20, 2015)

upsidedown said:



			Played in NZ for six years where max handicaps are 38 men and 45 ladies and no , they are no slower than the rest of us and those that I played with were really good company 

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I quite like playing slowly if I can so no issues here, I actually feel rushed when the course is full and in comps, don't like the feeling that I am holding someone up.


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## chellie (Apr 20, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I don't actually see the size of the handicap having any relation to pace of play in the majority of cases.
		
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It doesn't from my experience either. The slow rounds I've played have all been with low handicappers or being in the group behind them......


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## garyinderry (Apr 20, 2015)

evahakool said:



			One of my brothers has been playing for over 30 years and has never been below 26h/c if he had to play off 18h/c he would never be able to play competitive golf again which would be a real shame for him as he loves the game.

I'm sure there are many older players that would be in the same situation , do you think this would be fair on them?
		
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I have stated that I wouldn't mind handicaps going up if needs be.  I would just like to see men start at 18.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			I have stated that I wouldn't mind handicaps going up if needs be.  I would just like to see men start at 18.
		
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Why do they need to start at 18 ? 

What if someone is genuinely an 28 HC - he then struggles for months and months and just has had enough and gives up ? 

Shouldn't we be looking to encourage more people to play the game


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## woody69 (Apr 20, 2015)

Markw said:



			Totally, nearly every high handicapper I've seen who plays regularly can hit a half decent ball most the time. They fall down with course management, trying to hit a 300yd drive or taking on shots tiger wouldn't attempt! The holes they get 2 shots on they still try and birdie it instead of using their shots to good effect and walking away with a good net score. Personally I like a challenge and I learn more quicker that way, a lot do learn from their mistakes and improve but I think having too many free shots is actually hindering some players.
		
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I'm a high handicap player. Play off 22. Would LOVE to be off 18 or less. My problem is not course management though. My problem is being able to consistently hit the ball, you know the tops and the thins. Taking 3 off the tee, or making a double from being 30 yards from the pin thanks to a thinned chip, or a 3-putt. Duff 10 "easy" or simple shots and I'm scoring 28-32 points. I want to get better, but I can only play once or twice a month in comps and not get in any practice and I lack the natural ability to just be able to improve. My best score in a stableford round was 36. Stick me off 18 and apart from saying "I'm off 18", which I'd quite like I'd be scoring 20-25 and have pretty much zero chance of winning unless I have an absolute blinder and people like you would probably still call me a bandit.


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## Markw (Apr 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why do they need to start at 18 ? 

What if someone is genuinely an 28 HC - he then struggles for months and months and just has had enough and gives up ? 

Shouldn't we be looking to encourage more people to play the game
		
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Then it should be no problem, going up .3 for every shot over handicap until they find a level, if they was genuinely a 28 then could be at their playing handicap in a couple of months.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2015)

Markw said:



			Then it should be no problem, going up .3 for every shot over handicap until they find a level, if they was genuinely a 28 then could be at their playing handicap in a couple of months.
		
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To go up ten shots would take 30 comps at .3 

After 5-10 comps they have prob had enough 

I have an even better radical idea 

New golfers put in a set amount of cards which will be used to determine their HC

When they are given that HC they then are at least at a level that they can play too and then look to improve or possibly go up dependent on how their golf goes 

That way people can enjoy the game a lot more and their is no restrictions or elitism placed on everyone and all golfers are treated the same


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## Markw (Apr 20, 2015)

woody69 said:



			I'm a high handicap player. Play off 22. Would LOVE to be off 18 or less. My problem is not course management though. My problem is being able to consistently hit the ball, you know the tops and the thins. Taking 3 off the tee, or making a double from being 30 yards from the pin thanks to a thinned chip, or a 3-putt. Duff 10 "easy" or simple shots and I'm scoring 28-32 points. I want to get better, but I can only play once or twice a month in comps and not get in any practice and I lack the natural ability to just be able to improve. My best score in a stableford round was 36. Stick me off 18 and apart from saying "I'm off 18", which I'd quite like I'd be scoring 20-25 and have pretty much zero chance of winning unless I have an absolute blinder and people like you would probably still call me a bandit.
		
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That's course management I'm afraid, especially if you say you haven't got natural ability. 3 off the tee regularly means take something that doesn't get you in trouble, a 400-450yd hole should be reachable in 3 shots with an iron? If you are consistently thinning wedges then play the easier bump and run shot, what wedges do you use? A lot of players also make it a lot harder with equipment choice, play an iron that's forgiving and gets the ball up easily, driver with 12-13 degree loft etc putting is practice really.


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## Markw (Apr 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			To go up ten shots would take 30 comps at .3 

After 5-10 comps they have prob had enough 

I have an even better radical idea 

New golfers put in a set amount of cards which will be used to determine their HC

When they are given that HC they then are at least at a level that they can play too and then look to improve or possibly go up dependent on how their golf goes 

That way people can enjoy the game a lot more and their is no restrictions or elitism placed on everyone and all golfers are treated the same
		
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You're picking and choosing what you read, I said if they go up .3 for every shot over handicap, 10 over goes up 3 in one round?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2015)

Markw said:



			You're picking and choosing what you read, I said if they go up .3 for every shot over handicap, 10 over goes up 3 in one round?
		
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Last year playing of 5 I had a mare and shot a 96 - that's 25 over par - so how much would I go up in your HC system 

In your system HC's would yo yo and be unmanageable and unworkable.


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## Markw (Apr 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Last year playing of 5 I had a mare and shot a 96 - that's 25 over par - so how much would I go up in your HC system 

In your system HC's would yo yo and be unmanageable and unworkable.
		
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It would be null and void card, obviously a would be bandit trying to increase their handicap!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 20, 2015)

Markw said:



			It would be null and void card, obviously a would be bandit trying to increase their handicap!
		
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Why would it be null and void ?!?

So me having a 96 is being a bandit trying to increase my HC ?


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## garyinderry (Apr 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why do they need to start at 18 ? 

What if someone is genuinely an 28 HC - he then struggles for months and months and just has had enough and gives up ? 

Shouldn't we be looking to encourage more people to play the game
		
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I chopped it round for years as a youngster playing the odd game in the summer when the sun was out.  Same with a couple of my friends.  We played for fun, as that is what it was. 

It wasn't till I got at least half decent that I decided I would try and play in competitions.


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## Markw (Apr 20, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why would it be null and void ?!?

So me having a 96 is being a bandit trying to increase my HC ?
		
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Null and void under the sandbagger rule, repeating offenders would be forced to start at scratch and work up in .1 increments.


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## garyinderry (Apr 20, 2015)

Markw said:



			Then it should be no problem, going up .3 for every shot over handicap until they find a level, if they was genuinely a 28 then could be at their playing handicap in a couple of months.
		
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This system could work well for the first year.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 20, 2015)

Markw said:



			You're picking and choosing what you read, I said if they go up .3 for every shot over handicap, 10 over goes up 3 in one round?
		
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The scheme sounds similar in parts to the predecessor to what we have now and that was a messy beast


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## Markw (Apr 20, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			The scheme sounds similar in parts to the predecessor to what we have now and that was a messy beast
		
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Yes, all these crazy ideas to stop the odd dishonest golfer who are out there!


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## TopOfTheFlop (Apr 20, 2015)

Won't b able to for the next week and back to regularity Sunday onwards. The following weekend perhaps? Saturday early?


richart said:



			Fancy your chances before I go to Ireland next Sunday ?
		
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## Markw (Apr 20, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			This system could work well for the first year.
		
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Or until they reached 28, I honestly think that some players would improve quicker as they would think more about the game and not take the chance shots they do when they have 2 shots to play with.


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## Slab (Apr 21, 2015)

Iâ€™m actually beginning to wonder if some of the viewpoints on here re max 18 HC are just a wind up

Could those tell me why youâ€™re suggesting 18, why not 15 or 20 for example? 

So when you considered a handicap shot allowance for golf what's so special about your magic 18 number? Or did you just look around a little perplexed and think, â€˜18 holes-18 handicap! Genius thatâ€™s foolproof that isâ€™

Iâ€™m afraid that is a very self cantered approach and perhaps shows a lack of appreciation and understanding of the situation  

As has been ignored several times, what are you going to do when membership and participation goes down because thereâ€™s a good portion of people that cannot play close to â€˜18â€™ and perhaps never will (and your subs need to go up to cover the folks you donâ€™t want in your club just so you can pick up a few more sleeves of balls for your trophy cabinet)

And finally (even though your idea of a bandits handicap level seems to differ from others) what happens when this new magic 18 settles down and this is the new figure the odd bandit plays off? You going to drop it to maximum 14 or 12?

Thereâ€™s an issue with some individuals protecting or manipulating handicaps but you effectively want a bazooka to kill a spider! 

Just give it some thought from anotherâ€™s point of view rather than self interest


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## Slab (Apr 21, 2015)

Markw said:



			Or until they reached 28, I honestly think that some players would improve quicker as they would think more about the game and not take the chance shots they do when they have 2 shots to play with.
		
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I honestly think you believe that with sufficient time, tuition, practice and application that every single person has the potential to play off an 18 handicap

And while that would make a great discussion thread do you really think that's what the handicap system should be based on? Potential ability rather than actual ability


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

Markw said:



			Yes, all these crazy ideas to stop the odd dishonest golfer who are out there!
		
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You will always have the odd golfer who will protect their HC whichever system that will be used 

But you don't punish or alienate the majority of golfers because of them by bringing in daft HC systems that are just unworkable or unmanageable


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## woody69 (Apr 21, 2015)

Markw said:



			That's course management I'm afraid, especially if you say you haven't got natural ability. 3 off the tee regularly means take something that doesn't get you in trouble, a 400-450yd hole should be reachable in 3 shots with an iron? If you are consistently thinning wedges then play the easier bump and run shot, what wedges do you use? A lot of players also make it a lot harder with equipment choice, play an iron that's forgiving and gets the ball up easily, driver with 12-13 degree loft etc putting is practice really.
		
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It's not course management. A classic example is the 7th at our place. 290 odd yard par 4. On most occasions I'll take a 6 iron off the tee. Problem is 2 times out of 10 that 6 iron is going no more than 60 yard's as I chunk it into the rubbish between the tee and fairway. Ok, try a longer club. Ultimately same result, i.e the ability to hit consistent shots. All it takes is 2 of those in a round and I suddenly have to make up 4 shots. Another example our 1st. Take a driver and 99 times out of 100 it's safe, but I'm still 190 yards away. I'll usually take a 6 or 7 iron here and again, I'll hit it well (for me) and now I have 40-60 yards to go. More often than not I'll then try to "bump" and run and I may get lucky and be on the green for 3, but often it's either short or long. If I then pitch on and take 1 putt I'm down in a bogey and that's the aim. Problem is the pitch isn't anywhere near good enough a lot of the time and it's 2 putt territory and a double. So tell me how exactly I can improve on my course management? I'm playing it fairly safe but still being able to consistently hit the shot I want is the issue. Sometimes I nail it and get that par or that bogey, (I've even got a few birdies!) but all it takes is 2 or 3 holes with a mini disaster (I'm not even talking about total blow ups) and playing to my own handicap, let alone 18 is a pipe dream.


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## chellie (Apr 21, 2015)

woody69 said:



			It's not course management. A classic example is the 7th at our place. 290 odd yard par 4. On most occasions I'll take a 6 iron off the tee. Problem is 2 times out of 10 that 6 iron is going no more than 60 yard's as I chunk it into the rubbish between the tee and fairway. Ok, try a longer club. Ultimately same result, i.e the ability to hit consistent shots. All it takes is 2 of those in a round and I suddenly have to make up 4 shots. Another example our 1st. Take a driver and 99 times out of 100 it's safe, but I'm still 190 yards away. I'll usually take a 6 or 7 iron here and again, I'll hit it well (for me) and now I have 40-60 yards to go. More often than not I'll then try to "bump" and run and I may get lucky and be on the green for 3, but often it's either short or long. If I then pitch on and take 1 putt I'm down in a bogey and that's the aim. Problem is the pitch isn't anywhere near good enough a lot of the time and it's 2 putt territory and a double. So tell me how exactly I can improve on my course management? I'm playing it fairly safe but still being able to consistently hit the shot I want is the issue. Sometimes I nail it and get that par or that bogey, (I've even got a few birdies!) but all it takes is 2 or 3 holes with a mini disaster (I'm not even talking about total blow ups) and playing to my own handicap, let alone 18 is a pipe dream.
		
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Like me, you probably shouldn't be allowed out on the golf course reading some posts


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## garyinderry (Apr 21, 2015)

Views are not a wind up.  

Firstly I would be happy if all prizes were removed from amateur comps. 
I am of the opinion that Competition golf should reward a certain level of achievement in the game. 
Handing a complete newbie  36 (if this is where it is going)handicap and watch him have a clean sweep of medals as he begins to grasp the game makes a mockery of competition. How can anyone compete with that. 
18 shots sounds fine to me. A free go at every hole. Golf is a thinking man's sport. Throwing more shots about removes the need to think. Sure ill just blast it down there and hope for the best. 

I am not completely against handicaps needing to go up if age,health then finally ability dictates. Maybe after a year or two the handicap can be adjusted if needs be.

I am just not of the opinion that people should be handed such high handicaps straight off the bat. This game is hard but the rewards are there If you put the work in. 

As I said golf isn't easy. No one picks up a club and can play straight away. Why do we feel the need to let people make good scores straight away.

There is a host of places for beginners to get their game in order before playing in proper club comps.  

Crazy golf
Driving range
Pitch and putt
Par 3 course
Muni course
Proper golf course.
comp golf 

It's all golf. I don't see the need for people to jump into the deep end straight away.  You certainly didn't do it when you were learning to swim.


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## StrangelyBrown (Apr 21, 2015)

I've had the same comments in medals and matchplay... 

PP - "With your swing, I'd put you off 12 and no more".
Me - "Well, my scores put me off 22, so that what I play off"


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## Slab (Apr 21, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Views are not a wind up.  

Firstly I would be happy if all prizes were removed from amateur comps. 
I am of the opinion that Competition golf should reward a certain level of achievement in the game. 
Handing a complete newbie  36 (if this is where it is going)handicap and watch him have a clean sweep of medals as he begins to grasp the game makes a mockery of competition. How can anyone compete with that. 
18 shots sounds fine to me. A free go at every hole. Golf is a thinking man's sport. Throwing more shots about removes the need to think. Sure ill just blast it down there and hope for the best. 

I am not completely against handicaps needing to go up if age,health then finally ability dictates. Maybe after a year or two the handicap can be adjusted if needs be.

I am just not of the opinion that people should be handed such high handicaps straight off the bat. This game is hard but the rewards are there If you put the work in. 

As I said golf isn't easy. No one picks up a club and can play straight away. Why do we feel the need to let people make good scores straight away.

There is a host of places for beginners to get their game in order before playing in proper club comps.  

Crazy golf
Driving range
Pitch and putt
Par 3 course
Muni course
Proper golf course.
comp golf 

It's all golf. I don't see the need for people to jump into the deep end straight away.  You certainly didn't do it when you were learning to swim.
		
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I don't think anyone asking for handicaps to be made artificially higher, just that they shouldn't be artificially lower either, if the limit was raised to 36 that should just recognize a group of golfers who currently skew the average handicap down to 18

Personally I think 28 is about right but if it did go up I don't see it being a regular occurrence that someone being assessed with three cards as 36 is then going to clean sweep the comps  

I think a 'free go on every hole' is far too simplistic for what the handicap format needs to do, just think about the Cat 1 players who also get a 'free go' on several holes. Think of your own course, is there really no discernible difference to how a Cat 1 player and a 25 handicapper (limited to18) will play/score on them sufficient to make it competitive? The Cat 1 player will rightly wipe the floor with the high HC guy  

To suggest that having a handicap above 18 removes the need to think is actually insulting so I'll leave it at that 

Folk haven't just been given high handicaps, they've earned them (and mares have been rounded down to doubles) so actually quite often their HC is lower than they've shot, meaning their first handicap is already a challenge that they probably haven't played to before, just how much tougher should it be?

If you want to impose a limit the comps until a certain level is attained that again is another good thread topic (but I think those comps already exist)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 21, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Views are not a wind up.  

Firstly I would be happy if all prizes were removed from amateur comps. 
I am of the opinion that Competition golf should reward a certain level of achievement in the game. 
Handing a complete newbie  36 (if this is where it is going)handicap and watch him have a clean sweep of medals as he begins to grasp the game makes a mockery of competition. How can anyone compete with that. 
18 shots sounds fine to me. A free go at every hole. Golf is a thinking man's sport. Throwing more shots about removes the need to think. Sure ill just blast it down there and hope for the best. 

I am not completely against handicaps needing to go up if age,health then finally ability dictates. Maybe after a year or two the handicap can be adjusted if needs be.

I am just not of the opinion that people should be handed such high handicaps straight off the bat. This game is hard but the rewards are there If you put the work in. 

As I said golf isn't easy. No one picks up a club and can play straight away. Why do we feel the need to let people make good scores straight away.

There is a host of places for beginners to get their game in order before playing in proper club comps.  

Crazy golf
Driving range
Pitch and putt
Par 3 course
Muni course
Proper golf course.
comp golf 

It's all golf. I don't see the need for people to jump into the deep end straight away.  You certainly didn't do it when you were learning to swim.
		
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Nobody is handed a handicap, 28 is merely the starting point while learning, the three cards and your off works ok.
I've seen guys put 3 great cards in and never maintain the too low handicap they start with, slowly creeping back up.
I would agree that to get an "Official" handicap it should be off 3 comp cards and not just any three you've played with your mates.


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## North Mimms (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			To go up ten shots would take 30 comps at .3 

After 5-10 comps they have prob had enough 

I have an even better radical idea 
*
New golfers put in a set amount of cards which will be used to determine their HC

When they are given that HC they then are at least at a level that they can play too and then look to improve or possibly go up dependent on how their golf goes *

That way people can enjoy the game a lot more and their is no restrictions or elitism placed on everyone and all golfers are treated the same
		
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Dunno.
It'll never catch on


Actually, the ladies section at my club has a good idea- one of your three initial cards for hcp has to be with a committee member. 
If someone really does need to start at 28 (or 36) you should be able to tell.

3 cards "with their mates" is open to abuse


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## garyinderry (Apr 21, 2015)

Slab said:



			I don't think anyone asking for handicaps to be made artificially higher, just that they shouldn't be artificially lower either, if the limit was raised to 36 that should just recognize a group of golfers who currently skew the average handicap down to 18

Personally I think 28 is about right but if it did go up I don't see it being a regular occurrence that someone being assessed with three cards as 36 is then going to clean sweep the comps  

*of course they would. all those disasters that are rounded down would be used to gain further shots.*

I think a 'free go on every hole' is far too simplistic for what the handicap format needs to do, just think about the Cat 1 players who also get a 'free go' on several holes. Think of your own course, is there really no discernible difference to how a Cat 1 player and a 25 handicapper (limited to18) will play/score on them sufficient to make it competitive? The Cat 1 player will rightly wipe the floor with the high HC guy  

*yes, the cat 1 guys have 5 such holes. the 25 handicapper has 18 of them.* 

To suggest that having a handicap above 18 removes the need to think is actually insulting so I'll leave it at that. 

*Limiting the handicap to 18 encourages the player to think.* 

Folk haven't just been given high handicaps, they've earned them (and mares have been rounded down to doubles) so actually quite often their HC is lower than they've shot, meaning their first handicap is already a challenge that they probably haven't played to before, just how much tougher should it be?

*medals are beyond tough for many starting out. even people in high teen handicaps struggle with them. stableford is the best way for people to learn as they don't have the mental scars of running up cricket scores. *

If you want to impose a limit the comps until a certain level is attained that again is another good thread topic (but I think those comps already exist)
		
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one of my brothers playing partners plays off around 24.  he has no desire to improve or even push himself to try and get to a shot a hole.   he has the parachute of those shots saving him week in week out.    he never takes lessons, uses clubs that are obviously unsuitable (lie angle).  worst of all, he doesn't use much if any course management. duffs a tee shot, out comes the 3 wood. smash bang wallop.  no thought, just trying to get that 4 point par to retrieve his score. 

this is the type of player I would like to see pushed towards playing better golf. 

he winces on captains day playing with randoms when asked '' have you been playing long? ''         "20 years''


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## Slab (Apr 21, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			one of my brothers playing partners plays off around 24.  he has no desire to improve or even push himself to try and get to a shot a hole.   he has the parachute of those shots saving him week in week out.    he never takes lessons, uses clubs that are obviously unsuitable (lie angle).  worst of all, he doesn't use much if any course management. duffs a tee shot, out comes the 3 wood. smash bang wallop.  no thought, just trying to get that 4 point par to retrieve his score. 

this is the type of player I would like to see pushed towards playing better golf. 

he winces on captains day playing with randoms when asked '' have you been playing long? ''         "20 years''  

Click to expand...

But you want to revamp the handicap limit to tackle this one type of golfer (who I'm going to guess is in the minority if my experience is any guide)

As I understand it 18 is the average handicap in the UK, why would you want the maximum shot allowance set so that only they & above average golfers get full entitlement?


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## delc (Apr 21, 2015)

I would probably be in favour of men being given an initial handicap of 18 and women 25, to be reviewed after 6 months or after playing in a certain number of qualifiers. This would stop low/mid handicap golfers like myself who have reached a steady state being continually zapped in comps by rapidly improving newcomers to the game with high handicaps!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			one of my brothers playing partners plays off around 24.  he has no desire to improve or even push himself to try and get to a shot a hole.   he has the parachute of those shots saving him week in week out.    he never takes lessons, uses clubs that are obviously unsuitable (lie angle).  worst of all, he doesn't use much if any course management. duffs a tee shot, out comes the 3 wood. smash bang wallop.  no thought, just trying to get that 4 point par to retrieve his score. 

this is the type of player I would like to see pushed towards playing better golf. 

he winces on captains day playing with randoms when asked '' have you been playing long? ''         "20 years''  

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Why do they need pushing towards playing better golf ? Are they not enjoying themselves playing exactly how they are ?

It's a sport we play as a hobby and for enjoyment for most 

I play with plenty who have been playing for 20 plus years and only have played to HC in the 20 shots plus - but they enjoy themselves just being out playing and every now and then grabbing a par or a rare birdie etc 

I would suggest that the majority are playing it to enjoy themselves and a great deal are happy playing to the HC they have. Why the need to push people to be better ?


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## Fyldewhite (Apr 21, 2015)

I have always said to players thinking of joining a club that to get the most out of it they need to be at a level to break 100 regularly. So on that basis I'd say the current maximum of 28 is about right. I'd be happy to see this go up to 36 only if the initial handicap were limited to 28 (or maybe 30) and it only went up based on performance (maybe 0.2 rather than 0.1). Putting new players off 36 will create a big task for handicap committees keeping track of and monitoring new players who will mostly be improving quickly. Similar to the problems juniors rapid improvement can cause in summer holidays etc. I'm not convinced many clubs will keep up with this and will see scores in the 50's regularly which is not a good thing for the game.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

delc said:



			I would probably be in favour of men being given an initial handicap of 18 and women 25, to be reviewed after 6 months or after playing in a certain number of qualifiers. This would stop low/mid handicap golfers like myself who have reached a steady state being continually zapped in comps by rapidly improving newcomers to the game with high handicaps!  

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Continually ?

So the winners of your comps are always rapid improving newcomers ?


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## garyinderry (Apr 21, 2015)

Slab said:



			But you want to revamp the handicap limit to tackle this one type of golfer (who I'm going to guess is in the minority if my experience is any guide)

As I understand it 18 is the average handicap in the UK, why would you want the maximum shot allowance set so that only they & above average golfers get full entitlement?
		
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If you remove the senior golfers who are not the players they once were, then that average would drop.  I have already stated I am happy for the handicap to rise.  I would just like to see it start at 18.  I also have no problem with older golfers playing off over 18 as they no longer physically have the strength they once had.

Again I will state I would like to see beginners get to a good standard of golf before entering comps. I believe they would benefit more from practice rounds and time at the practice ground much more than shooting in the 100s in a medal round.

Just last year the podgester on this board was a member at lee park.  He was off around 24 at the time and we talked at length about course strategy and a bit of the technicalities of the swing and chipping etc.  He took himself to the practice ground quite a bit and played plenty of practice rounds. Sometimes on his own.   he for the most part eliminated the duff 6iron and duff chips. He got himself to a stage where he could make good contact most of the time. This coupled with his use of course management allowed him to easily gain an 18 handicap.  He dropped like a stone.

This kind of improvement is not encouraged by giving more than a shot a hole.  If men had to start comps at 18 the standard of golf would be forced to improve.

A shot a hole golf is not out of reach for everyone. With practice and determination it can be done.  It wasn't long ago someone was on here claiming everyone can play off singles.  I wouldnt go that far but 18 is IMO within everyones grasp.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 21, 2015)

Can I just check one thing - I thought this thread was about stableford scores in friendly members, guests and visitors roll-ups of a Sat or Sunday morning.  I think some golfers maybe lose sight of why we play in such roll-ups.  And for me - it's not to trouser Â£10-Â£15 in winnings!  I celebrate good scores others make.  I accept that I'm (generally) not good enough to score 40pts off my handicap.  That's just how it is.  And that's fine.


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## garyinderry (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why do they need pushing towards playing better golf ? Are they not enjoying themselves playing exactly how they are ?

It's a sport we play as a hobby and for enjoyment for most 

I play with plenty who have been playing for 20 plus years and only have played to HC in the 20 shots plus - but they enjoy themselves just being out playing and every now and then grabbing a par or a rare birdie etc 

I would suggest that the majority are playing it to enjoy themselves and a great deal are happy playing to the HC they have. Why the need to push people to be better ?
		
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Because its competition time Phillip.  Striving to be better.  That is what most handicap golfers want.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Because its competition time Phillip.  Striving to be better.  That is what most handicap golfers want.
		
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But I know a good deal that just like playing golf and just enter the comps knowing that they won't win but every now and then they may get the odd two etc 

Golf isn't just being competitive - enjoyment is bigger IMO 

How many strive to be better and how many are happy just exactly how they are and enjoying themselves 

Golf isn't our bread winner - it's not what puts the food on the table - it's our sporting hobby


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## delc (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Continually ?

So the winners of your comps are always rapid improving newcomers ?
		
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Well a lot of the time. One of our major board competitions was won by a new member with a 28 handicap, who scored a nett 59 (13 under) a few years ago. Any established player would have almost no chance of getting such a score.


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## woody69 (Apr 21, 2015)

delc said:



			I would probably be in favour of men being given an initial handicap of 18 and women 25, to be reviewed after 6 months or after playing in a certain number of qualifiers. This would stop low/mid handicap golfers like myself who have reached a steady state* being continually zapped in comps by rapidly improving newcomers* to the game with high handicaps!  

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This is such a myth.

At my club the last few winners have been off 16, 16, 10, 10, 11, 17, 12, 15... in fact I have to go back to our Oct Stableford last year to get to player over 18 as the winner of a comp - 21


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

delc said:



			Well a lot of the time. One of our major board competitions was won by a new member with a 28 handicap, who scored a nett 59 (13 under) a few years ago. Any established player would have almost no chance of getting such a score.
		
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So now it's gone from continually to a lot of the time and you point out one result from a few years ago 

So how many comps exactly are won by newcomers ?

So far in our club we have had one comp this year from the 10 singles and 4 team comps won by someone who has took the game up in the last 3 years.


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## delc (Apr 21, 2015)

woody69 said:



			This is such a myth.

At my club the last few winners have been off 16, 16, 10, 10, 11, 17, 12, 15... in fact I have to go back to our Oct Stableford last year to get to player over 18 as the winner of a comp - 21
		
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No single figure players I note! :mmm:


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## garyinderry (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But I know a good deal that just like playing golf and just enter the comps knowing that they won't win but every now and then they may get the odd two etc 

Golf isn't just being competitive - enjoyment is bigger IMO 

*No but competitions are supposed to be competitive. Plenty of roll ups and friendly games to play outside of comp time*.

How many strive to be better and how many are happy just exactly how they are and enjoying themselves 

*You know who is happy where they are. People who are bandits and know on any given days they can shoot well lower than the mark they are on. I appreciate that this can happen at any given handicap*.
		
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Golf isn't easy. Many work hard to get to an 18 handicap. A great sense of achievement for every golfer.  I just believe this is the mark where comp golf should begin. A reward for a decent standard of play.


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## garyinderry (Apr 21, 2015)

:rofl:



delc said:



			No single figure players I note! :mmm:
		
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:rofl:


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## Slab (Apr 21, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			If you remove the senior golfers who are not the players they once were, then that average would drop.  I have already stated I am happy for the handicap to rise.  I would just like to see it start at 18.  I also have no problem with older golfers playing off over 18 as they no longer physically have the strength they once had.

Again I will state I would like to see beginners get to a good standard of golf before entering comps. I believe they would benefit more from practice rounds and time at the practice ground much more than shooting in the 100s in a medal round.

Just last year the podgester on this board was a member at lee park.  He was off around 24 at the time and we talked at length about course strategy and a bit of the technicalities of the swing and chipping etc.  He took himself to the practice ground quite a bit and played plenty of practice rounds. Sometimes on his own.   he for the most part eliminated the duff 6iron and duff chips. He got himself to a stage where he could make good contact most of the time. This coupled with his use of course management allowed him to easily gain an 18 handicap.  He dropped like a stone.

This kind of improvement is not encouraged by giving more than a shot a hole.  If men had to start comps at 18 the standard of golf would be forced to improve.

A shot a hole golf is not out of reach for everyone. With practice and determination it can be done.  It wasn't long ago someone was on here claiming everyone can play off singles.  I wouldnt go that far but 18 is IMO within everyones grasp.
		
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But I never thought the purpose of a handicap was to *force* improvement (despite the majority of us wanting to shoot lower)

The desire & determination to improve is part of the players attitude towards the game and wont be increased by an arbitrary number


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 21, 2015)

delc said:



			No single figure players I note! :mmm:
		
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Because there aren't so many of them - and any one golfer needs lots of things to go their way to score really well on a day to put themselves in a winning position.  More likely then to come from the largest group - and even if that group is those of handicap 20+ they are further handicapped by many stableford comps having a max handicap limitation of 18.


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## Slab (Apr 21, 2015)

delc said:



*Well a lot of the time*. _*One *_of our major board competitions was won by a new member with a 28 handicap, who scored a nett 59 (13 under) *a few years ago*. Any established player would have almost no chance of getting such a score.
		
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Are you really saying that once, a few years ago, is a lot of the time

edit: replied before I saw LP's earlier response


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

delc said:



			No single figure players I note! :mmm:
		
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Three of our comps have been won by single figures - two by cat 1 players - a team comp won by two cat 1 players.

So can you confirm how many newcomers to golf have won comps at your place over the last 12 months as an example ?


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## garyinderry (Apr 21, 2015)

Slab said:



			But I never thought the purpose of a handicap was to *force* improvement (despite the majority of us wanting to shoot lower)

The desire & determination to improve is part of the players attitude towards the game and wont be increased by an arbitrary number
		
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I like to use a poker analogy here.  Have plenty of chips (shots) you will play fast and loose.  When you are short stacked the smart lay is to think and be more conservative.   

This forces the player into at least thinking more even if it doesn't improve his actual playing ability.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Golf isn't easy. Many work hard to get to an 18 handicap. A great sense of achievement for every golfer.  I just believe this is the mark where comp golf should begin. A reward for a decent standard of play.
		
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Suggesting they are all bandits is extremely unfair and very judgemental tbh 

No one said golf is easy 

Yes every now and then someone will have one of those days - fair play to them I say 

Why should club comps only be restricted to competive people ? As I said I know plenty who know they won't win but still play as the enjoy it and also if they didn't play in the comp they wouldn't be able to play at weekends ?


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## Slab (Apr 21, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			I like to use a poker analogy here.  Have plenty of chips (shots) you will play fast and loose.  When you are short stacked the smart lay is to think and be more conservative.   

This forces the player into at least thinking more even if it doesn't improve his actual playing ability.
		
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But if you just never have enough chips you'll either walk away from the table or go all in


I've played off 18 in 3/4 capped competitions, I pretty much have to give you a 3 or 4 shot head start, do you really need that too


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## Region3 (Apr 21, 2015)

delc said:



			No single figure players I note! :mmm:
		
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We're being continually zapped by people around your handicap


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## Alex1975 (Apr 21, 2015)

Region3 said:



			We're being continually zapped by people around your handicap 

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Go go the dangerous mid handicappers!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

delc said:



			No single figure players I note! :mmm:
		
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It's Batchwood Park you are a member off aren't you ?

Have you had a chance to look at your results yet ?

Remembering your posts that said "continually being won by newcomers" I thought I would have a look at the results over the last 12 months - how many newcomers at your club start with a HC in single figures ?


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## Region3 (Apr 21, 2015)

Just out of interest I've had a look at our singles comps this year.

Winning handicaps were 17 27 15 20 18 12 16 16 15 20

In order to win 7 of those 10 I would have needed sub par (gross) rounds.
To win 3 of the 10 I would have had to break the amateur course record.


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## delc (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Three of our comps have been won by single figures - two by cat 1 players - a team comp won by two cat 1 players.

So can you confirm how many newcomers to golf have won comps at your place over the last 12 months as an example ?
		
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Our last Seniors Medal was won by a relative newcomer with a nett 64 off a 24 handicap (now down to 21). He has recently retired and now has a lot more time to play and practice golf, which probably puts him in the rapid improver category.


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## JustOne (Apr 21, 2015)

Darren24 said:



			Well I played today in stableford comp and the two gentlemen who I was playing with started the round before I had even hit a ball with comments like " 24, I wouldn't give you more than 18" and "the handicap committee were nice to you hay" bearing in mind I did not know these blokes I thought oh so this is going to be interesting or I'm going to hate it. Anyway nothing changed and they could not help but make smarmy remarks so to say it was one round I really did not enjoy. If I played a good shot they fell silent but then when I hit a bad one they made comments. These two blokes were in there 60's and both played off around 10. My question is why do people have to act like this just because I'm a high handicapper and im young. Just for your information I scored 31 points and they scored 26 and 32. I walked away quite upset and to be honest I think after the 4th hole I just wanted to walk off and tell them to shove it. I was looking so forward to this comp as we don't have many stableford comps and I knew I could of played better but I lost interest after the comments did not stop.
		
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I played with a 13 h/cap yesterday, 2nd time I've met/played with him.

As soon as we shook hands I asked if he'd had his h/cap chopped from 13 to 7 yet, durin gthe round I mentioned that Frosties cereal were doing high h/caps if you cut out 2 vouchers on the back of the packet was that how he got his, told him i was happy to swap my 7 h/cap with his 13 as he would probably beat me even if we swapped.... myself and partner lost 6&5 to him and his mate.

AFTERWARDS when we all sat down we got to talking about a few things and I honestly and sincerely told him that looking at his swing he has the potential to be AT LEAST a 5 h/cap if he wanted to persue the sport and possibly even down to scratch ---- we talked about a practice process and a few things he should change to lose a few shots quite quickly and he was absolutely CHUFFED and can't wait until we play again.

So you can get the arse (which I guess is understandable if you don't understand how these things work) or you can accept some banter (when is what it generally is) and see where it leads to.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

delc said:



			Our last Seniors Medal was won by a relative newcomer with a nett 64 off a 24 handicap (now down to 21). He has recently retired and now has a lot more time to play and practice golf, which probably puts him in the rapid improver category.
		
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So one person in a seniors comp - 

Remember your previous statements of "continually" and then "a lot of the time"

Is it not actually truer that it's very much a minority considerably that newcomers win comps ?


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## woody69 (Apr 21, 2015)

delc said:



			No single figure players I note! :mmm:
		
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That's not really what is being discussed, but that is primarily due to the fact we have very few at our club.


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why should club comps only be restricted to competive people ? As I said I know plenty who know they won't win but still play as the enjoy it and also if they didn't play in the comp they wouldn't be able to play at weekends ?
		
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Hang on Phil.. You can't have your cake and eat it here mate 

Firstly, club comps should not only be open to competitive people, but surely if someone was competitive, they would be working their asses off to get as low as possible.. Play off 18 and show your game..

Secondly, if people are only playing comps to get a weekend round, then why does it matter what they play off? Play off 18 in that case..


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Hang on Phil.. You can't have your cake and eat it here mate 

Firstly, club comps should not only be open to competitive people, but surely if someone was competitive, they would be working their asses off to get as low as possible.. Play off 18 and show your game..

Secondly, if people are only playing comps to get a weekend round, then why does it matter what they play off? Play off 18 in that case..
		
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Because giving them a HC they may actually play to once in a blue moon gives them a bit of hope and enjoyment instead of them knowing they haven't got a prayer of even getting 30 points let alone 36 - some have little swindles between themselves when playing in comps with the winners more than likely getting just over 33 ish points and that to them is great - or even reaching the buffer for them is a great achievement that they feel happy about. 

Give them 18 when they and everyone knows they haven't got a prayer of getting anywhere near it and just demoralises them


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because giving them a HC they may actually play to once in a blue moon gives them a bit of hope and enjoyment instead of them knowing they haven't got a prayer of even getting 30 points let alone 36 - some have little swindles between themselves when playing in comps with the winners more than likely getting just over 33 ish points and that to them is great - or even reaching the buffer for them is a great achievement that they feel happy about. 

Give them 18 when they and everyone knows they haven't got a prayer of getting anywhere near it and just demoralises them
		
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So you don't think people will just "play as they enjoy it?" Are you absolutely sure they will not see it as a challenge? Aren't all sports supposed to challenge you to improve? 

Golf has to be one of the only sports where people can turn up and compete with the clubs best after only a month or so.. Some see that as a positive, some think there should be a period of improvement before a player should become competitive..

 I can see both sides of the argument, not sure which side I prefer yet...


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			So you don't think people will just "play as they enjoy it?" Are you absolutely sure they will not see it as a challenge? Aren't all sports supposed to challenge you to improve? 

Golf has to be one of the only sports where people can turn up and compete with the clubs best after only a month or so.. Some see that as a positive, some think there should be a period of improvement before a player should become competitive..

 I can see both sides of the argument, not sure which side I prefer yet...
		
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I play the game for enjoyment - that's the main aim for me - what happens after that happens but regardless of the score it will always be how I enjoyed myself with last Sunday the perfect example. Can't sport just be about "fun" for people that aren't using as their career to feed themselves ? 

Shouldn't we be actively looking to get people to play for the fun and enjoyment of the game.

I also believe one of the best things about the game is people who just start can play alongside people who have played for decades and various playing abilities. It's one of the beauties IMO of the game of golf within the club amateur game.


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## TheJezster (Apr 21, 2015)

The handicap system is fine as it is.  28 is a good starting point for some.  18 wouldnt be, simple as that.  When I started playing 4-5 years ago I was given an initial handicap of 26.  I can categorically state that I wouldnt have bothered with comps if I was forced to play off 18.  Same as many others.  Infact I may not have renewed my membership, what would be the point? I could still play when I wanted and pay a green fee instead.

As others have pointed out, the majority of comps are won by people with low to middle handicaps and not high handicappers.  Yes, there are the occassional winners with 24+ but it's so infrequent it is of no consequence.

Here's an idea, stop moaning about people having high handicaps and either work on your own game or actually encourage a high handicapper to do well.  That way he's likely to get better and his handicap lower.  And stay at the club longer.  Golf clubs need members.  Handicap shouldnt even come in to it.


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## Markw (Apr 21, 2015)

Out of interest just checked our last medal roll up comp results, 1st place - 24 hc with 10 under nett, 2nd place - 2hc with 1 under nett!


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## TheJezster (Apr 21, 2015)

Markw said:



			Out of interest just checked our last medal roll up comp results, 1st place - 24 hc with 10 under nett, 2nd place - 2hc with 1 under nett!
		
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And?

Well done on the winner, he must have played well.  Good for him.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I play the game for enjoyment - that's the main aim for me - what happens after that happens but regardless of the score it will always be how I enjoyed myself with last Sunday the perfect example. Can't sport just be about "fun" for people that aren't using as their career to feed themselves ? 

Shouldn't we be actively looking to get people to play for the fun and enjoyment of the game.

I also believe one of the best things about the game is people who just start can play alongside people who have played for decades and various playing abilities. It's one of the beauties IMO of the game of golf within the club amateur game.
		
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In 100% agreement.  I don't let any querulous thoughts I might have about a higher handicap player scoring a bucket load of points spoil my day - either if they are compiling them in my presence or I find out afterwards.  Nothing I can do about it - why should I fret and seeth?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

Markw said:



			Out of interest just checked our last medal roll up comp results, 1st place - 24 hc with 10 under nett, 2nd place - 2hc with 1 under nett!
		
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Well done to him


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 21, 2015)

Region3 said:



			Just out of interest I've had a look at our singles comps this year.

Winning handicaps were 17 27 15 20 18 12 16 16 15 20

In order to win 7 of those 10 I would have needed sub par (gross) rounds.
To win 3 of the 10 I would have had to break the amateur course record.
		
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You tell em, Gaz - sharks the lot of 'em.

Give people 36 shots if they need it, but they must play in a skirt, if they do - That'll soon get them practicing.


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## Markw (Apr 21, 2015)

TheJezster said:



			And?

Well done on the winner, he must have played well.  Good for him.
		
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Yes well played, I wish I could shoot 10 under my handicap


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

Markw said:



			Yes well played, I wish I could shoot 10 under my handicap
		
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That's not his fault is it ? 

Maybe he has worked his backside off and it all just clicked together or he had that one round that we know many players have. 

Maybe just congratulate him on a great round of golf instead of showing nothing but bitterness towards him


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 21, 2015)

My mate off 19 looks like a really good golfer if you play with him occasionally and only notice his good shots and good holes.  If you play with him regularly as I do you know why he is a 19 handicapper.  His course management costs him - and his handicap is despite his shot making and playing ability.  

It really annoys me and I stand up for him strongly when I hear folks mention his name and 'banditry' in close proximity.  And I suspect that this is the case for the vast majority of 18+ handicappers to whom the unwelcome soubriquet is applied.


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## Markw (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That's not his fault is it ? 

Maybe he has worked his backside off and it all just clicked together or he had that one round that we know many players have. 

Maybe just congratulate him on a great round of golf instead of showing nothing but bitterness towards him
		
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Didn't I say well played??? Don't understand the comment about being bitter??? I really do wish I could play 10 shots under my handicap! I know of the 2hc, a lot of hard work gone into his game and shot 1 under gross to lose by 8 shots, I bet he's bitter!
I would be, that's absolute BS and why I don't play comps anymore, no one should ever shoot 10 under handicap whatever handicap.


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I play the game for enjoyment - that's the main aim for me - what happens after that happens but regardless of the score it will always be how I enjoyed myself with last Sunday the perfect example. Can't sport just be about "fun" for people that aren't using as their career to feed themselves ? 

Shouldn't we be actively looking to get people to play for the fun and enjoyment of the game.

I also believe one of the best things about the game is people who just start can play alongside people who have played for decades and various playing abilities. It's one of the beauties IMO of the game of golf within the club amateur game.
		
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I'm in 100% agreement.. Everyone should play for fun. But, if the 24 handicapper who is being forced to play off 18 can't have fun because he can't win, then is he really playing the game for the right reasons? I play with plenty of people who just want to knock the ball round a field with some friends and take the mick out of each other for 4 hours. They wouldn't care if you put them off scratch.. 

Too many people care about the wrong things.. I genuinely don't care if I win, place or come last (fortunately).. I just want to shift my handicap as low as possible.. That is all, nothing else..


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

Markw said:



			Didn't I say well played??? Don't understand the comment about being bitter??? I really do wish I could play 10 shots under my handicap! I know of the 2hc, a lot of hard work gone into his game and shot 1 under gross to lose by 8 shots, I bet he's bitter!
		
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Why would he be bitter when shooting 1 under gross ? Or is it all about winning the comp for him ?


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why would he be bitter when shooting 1 under gross ? Or is it all about winning the comp for him ?
		
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Is it not all about winning the comp for the guys who refuse to consider playing off 18?


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## woody69 (Apr 21, 2015)

Markw said:



			Yes well played, I wish I could shoot 10 under my handicap
		
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He would have still won if he was off 18 with net 4 under wouldn't he? Do you also wish you could shoot 4 under your handicap?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			I'm in 100% agreement.. Everyone should play for fun. But, if the 24 handicapper who is being forced to play off 18 can't have fun because he can't win, then is he really playing the game for the right reasons? I play with plenty of people who just want to knock the ball round a field with some friends and take the mick out of each other for 4 hours. They wouldn't care if you put them off scratch.. 

Too many people care about the wrong things.. I genuinely don't care if I win, place or come last (fortunately).. I just want to shift my handicap as low as possible.. That is all, nothing else..
		
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But it's not the 24 HC being forced to play of 18 and then complaining because he can't win - it's complaining because he doesn't have the ability to at least play to his HC and have a chance of getting 36 points every now and then 

Imagine how the player will feel when he can't ever get near his HC of 18 when he knows that he will never have the ability to get there ? 

Let people have a HC relative to their ability and the scores they get 

Let a 24 HC ability player have a HC of 24 and let them have those 3 rounds throughout the year they may get 36 points or medal equivalent and if the player does start to improve then the HC will move with that improvement


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## Region3 (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverbirdie said:



			You tell em, Gaz - sharks the lot of 'em.

Give people 36 shots if they need it, but they must play in a skirt, if they do - That'll soon get them practicing.

Click to expand...


My post probably came across wrong. I'm in favour of however high a hc anyone needs to be competitive.

I was more responding to comments about high handicappers winning all the comps. Only 3 out of the 10 at my place were won by anyone getting more than a shot a hole.

I think the reality is that most golfers have an equal chance of 'having a good day', but there are so many more in the 'mid' (12-20?) category that the odds of one of them being the "chosen one" that day is disproportionately high to compared to other handicap groups.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Is it not all about winning the comp for the guys who refuse to consider playing off 18?
		
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No it's not all about winning


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## Darren24 (Apr 21, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Golf isn't easy. Many work hard to get to an 18 handicap. A great sense of achievement for every golfer.  I just believe this is the mark where comp golf should begin. A reward for a decent standard of play.
		
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this is my 1st aim to get to 18. I have only been playing competitive golf for a year. So you are stating that I should not play until I can play to 18. Well I would sell my gear coz that would not be enjoyable with the added pressure of I can't play comps till I'm 18. I was 25 last year but now 24, shot was taken off from handicap review. I can play really well for lets 13 consistently but for 5 I will have bad holes that's my problem. Best score off the White tees is 101 shots which I what I hit quite allot. I am speaking to get better but I just can't seem to brake that hundred in comps wether it be a mental problem or something but once  I scored 41 points in a roll up so does make a bandit as some of you would say. I have played in over 50 roll ups and have ever only won a front or back 9 never over all. I average about 34 points in a roll up. So off 24 would you still want to knock me down to 1?


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## Markw (Apr 21, 2015)

woody69 said:



			He would have still won if he was off 18 with net 4 under wouldn't he? Do you also wish you could shoot 4 under your handicap?
		
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I have shot 4 under current hc once in last 2 years so no wouldn't as it's takes a lot of hard work and effort to maintain my current hc.


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## Darren24 (Apr 21, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			I'm in 100% agreement.. Everyone should play for fun. But, if the 24 handicapper who is being forced to play off 18 can't have fun because he can't win, then is he really playing the game for the right reasons? I play with plenty of people who just want to knock the ball round a field with some friends and take the mick out of each other for 4 hours. They wouldn't care if you put them off scratch.. 

Too many people care about the wrong things.. I genuinely don't care if I win, place or come last (fortunately).. I just want to shift my handicap as low as possible.. That is all, nothing else..
		
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Perfect &#128077;&#128077;&#128077;&#128077;


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## garyinderry (Apr 21, 2015)

18 seems a good number for me.  1 free shot a hole against par. 

Why 28, why not 36,40, just take what ever you need sure. 

As I said earlier I would be quite happy for their to be no actual prizes. 

How about 1 pound entry for those happy to be competitive off 18 and lower and free entry for those wishing to attempt to get their handicap down to 18. Prizes paid out in srixon distance balls to cut out the bandits trying to win good prizes.


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## Region3 (Apr 21, 2015)

Markw said:



			Didn't I say well played??? *Don't understand the comment about being bitter???* I really do wish I could play 10 shots under my handicap! I know of the 2hc, a lot of hard work gone into his game and shot 1 under gross to lose by 8 shots, I bet he's bitter!
I would be, *that's absolute BS and why I don't play comps anymore, no one should ever shoot 10 under handicap* whatever handicap.
		
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At least make us search previous posts to find the contradictions. It isn't fun if it's too easy.


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## Markw (Apr 21, 2015)

Darren24 said:



			this is my 1st aim to get to 18. I have only been playing competitive golf for a year. So you are stating that I should not play until I can play to 18. Well I would sell my gear coz that would not be enjoyable with the added pressure of I can't play comps till I'm 18. I was 25 last year but now 24, shot was taken off from handicap review. I can play really well for lets 13 consistently but for 5 I will have bad holes that's my problem. Best score off the White tees is 101 shots which I what I hit quite allot. I am speaking to get better but I just can't seem to brake that hundred in comps wether it be a mental problem or something but once  I scored 41 points in a roll up so does make a bandit as some of you would say. I have played in over 50 roll ups and have ever only won a front or back 9 never over all. I average about 34 points in a roll up. So off 24 would you still want to knock me down to 1?
		
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IF you are averaging 34 pts then some might say your handicap is too high!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			18 seems a good number for me.  1 free shot a hole against par. 

Why 28, why not 36,40, just take what ever you need sure. 

As I said earlier I would be quite happy for their to be no actual prizes. 

How about 1 pound entry for those happy to be competitive off 18 and lower and free entry for those wishing to attempt to get their handicap down to 18. Prizes paid out in srixon distance balls to cut out the bandits trying to win good prizes.
		
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Being serious yes ?

Can you explain how working to that system will encourage people to take up the game or golf ?


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 21, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My mate off 19 looks like a really good golfer if you play with him occasionally and only notice his good shots and good holes.  If you play with him regularly as I do you know why he is a 19 handicapper.  His course management costs him - and his handicap is despite his shot making and playing ability.  

It really annoys me and I stand up for him strongly when I hear folks mention his name and 'banditry' in close proximity.  And I suspect that this is the case for the vast majority of 18+ handicappers to whom the unwelcome soubriquet is applied.
		
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Its quite easy to change your attitude to course management and improve greatly. However, hitting a good ball is a lot harder, so I could understand it if others thought he should be a lot lower, when playing with him.

Again, on the days it comes together, he can probably hit very low.


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## TheJezster (Apr 21, 2015)

Markw said:



			Didn't I say well played??? Don't understand the comment about being bitter??? I really do wish I could play 10 shots under my handicap! I know of the 2hc, a lot of hard work gone into his game and shot 1 under gross to lose by 8 shots, I bet he's bitter!
I would be, that's absolute BS and why I don't play comps anymore, no one should ever shoot 10 under handicap whatever handicap.
		
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Um, some pro's shoot less than 10 under par on some rounds, how is that possible?  

See, you simply cannot state that, sometimes you can have an exceptional round.  I did last year, I shot a 72 which was 12 under my handicap at the time.  I got cut 3 shots for it but hey, I was really happy, it's my lowest score.


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## Darren24 (Apr 21, 2015)

Markw said:



			IF you are averaging 34 pts then some might say your handicap is too high!
		
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so on that note knock me down but again I can't seem to get near it off the whites and that is not for trying.


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## garyinderry (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Being serious yes ?

Can you explain how working to that system will encourage people to take up the game or golf ?
		
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My dad played golf for 40 years.  Not once did he have a handicap.  He played for the love of the game.  

I played for years as a youngster for the love of the game.  I honestly wasn't even aware that there was comps. 

The lure of handicaps and wins isn't what should be attracting new players. It's the love of playing.  

Competition should come after that imo. Ideally when a decent standard of golf is reached.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			My dad played golf for 40 years.  Not once did he have a handicap.  He played for the love of the game.  

I played for years as a youngster for the love of the game.  I honestly wasn't even aware that there was comps. 

The lure of handicaps and wins isn't what should be attracting new players. It's the love of playing.  

Competition should come after that imo. Ideally when a decent standard of golf is reached.
		
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Again that didn't explain how you will attract people to play the game if you add restrictions placed upon them. 

People keep mentioning winning - it's not about winning but about being allowed to be able to play to their HC - allow people to get a HC that gives them 36 points.


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## Darren24 (Apr 21, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			18 seems a good number for me.  1 free shot a hole against par. 

Why 28, why not 36,40, just take what ever you need sure. 

As I said earlier I would be quite happy for their to be no actual prizes. 

How about 1 pound entry for those happy to be competitive off 18 and lower and free entry for those wishing to attempt to get their handicap down to 18. Prizes paid out in srixon distance balls to cut out the bandits trying to win good prizes.
		
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So anyone with a high handicap is a bandit well Thankyou. I don't believe there can be some so narrow minded people on here. I don't care about winning I would love the day I can at least say yea I'm of 18 a shot a hole. One reason I don't like golf is people with attitudes like this to beginners. Fortunately for me there are more reasons why I enjoy golf otherwise I would of packed in.


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## Markw (Apr 21, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			My dad played golf for 40 years.  Not once did he have a handicap.  He played for the love of the game.  

I played for years as a youngster for the love of the game.  I honestly wasn't even aware that there was comps. 

The lure of handicaps and wins isn't what should be attracting new players. It's the love of playing.  

Competition should come after that imo. Ideally when a decent standard of golf is reached.
		
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Exactly how it should be, if you are playing for fun you wouldn't even think of entering comps anyway. You would work on your game until you was capable of scoring reasonably consistent?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

Markw said:



			Exactly how it should be, if you are playing for fun you wouldn't even think of entering comps anyway. You would work on your game until you was capable of scoring reasonably consistent?
		
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What a load of tosh - can't people enter a comp and still play for fun ?! 

Elitism and snobbery is one of the biggest issues within golf - you it appears display the worst of it. 

I play for fun - are you suggesting I shouldn't enter comps ?


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## Darren24 (Apr 21, 2015)

Markw said:



			Exactly how it should be, if you are playing for fun you wouldn't even think of entering comps anyway. You would work on your game until you was capable of scoring reasonably consistent?
		
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so how else do I get my handicap down then. Because I practice take lesson and love the game for what is and I think that every time I go out I will get that score that can knock me down. If I didn't ten why else play them. Oh and 99% of the time even after the bad rounds I have enjoyed it because the company was great.


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## garyinderry (Apr 21, 2015)

Darren24 said:



			So anyone with a high handicap is a bandit well Thankyou. I don't believe there can be some so narrow minded people on here. I don't care about winning I would love the day I can at least say yea I'm of 18 a shot a hole. One reason I don't like golf is people with attitudes like this to beginners. Fortunately for me there are more reasons why I enjoy golf otherwise I would of packed in.
		
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If you read the post again you will find that anyone higher than 18 couldn't win the prize. 

The distance balls are to deter bandits of any handicap.   Be that the scratch man who should be plus 4 or the 18 handicap er who should be 12.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			If you read the post again you will find that anyone higher than 18 couldn't win the prize. 

The distance balls are to deter bandits of any handicap.   Be that the scratch man who should be plus 4 or the 18 handicap er who should be 12.
		
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So a guy who has been playing off 22 most of his golfing life has that one day where he plays 2 better than his HC and gets himself a place in the top 5 or even a win to be told - sorry you can't get the prize because your HC is too high ?!?!? Despite the fact he will prob never have a round like it again in a lifetime - can you not see how divisive and elitism that reads and how people would react ?! 

And distance ball to a bandit ?!? How are you judging who is a bandit ?!

Come on this all can't be serious and just a joke - there really can't be people thinking along these lines


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## StrangelyBrown (Apr 21, 2015)

TheJezster said:



			Um, some pro's shoot less than 10 under par on some rounds, how is that possible?
		
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Agreed.

I've seen Rory McIllroy shoot 62 one day and 80 the next. If the best player in the world can have a variation of 18 shots from one round to the next, why not someone off 22?


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## Snelly (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Again that didn't explain how you will attract people to play the game if you add restrictions placed upon them. 

People keep mentioning winning - it's not about winning but about being allowed to be able to play to their HC - allow people to get a HC that gives them 36 points.
		
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Phil - I don't agree with you. 

When I was a kid, golf was far more popular with big waiting lists at every club and the maximum handicap you could have was 18.  This went up to 24 in the year I got my first handicap.  

The number of shots received or how much of a chance one had of winning were totally irrelevant to whether you took up the game or enjoyed it. 


For what it is worth, here is my twopenneth.  If you are a relatively fit adult then you should be able to play golf reasonably well with a bit of graft and application.  But when you start out, you are basically rubbish, quite naturally of course as you are a total beginner.  

Consequently, you get given a very generous handicap that allows you to start out on your journey to become a golfer - currently 28 for men I believe?   As you become competitive, your handicap comes down reasonably quickly and even if you aren't all that brilliant, you can at least knock it round the course, perhaps dropping one shot a hole and a couple of shots on a hole every once in a while.    As a result, a handicap of 18 seems like a good point at which you can say you are no longer a complete hacker and can play golf to a standard that is acceptable.    

For me, this being a threshold at which you can then enter the main competitions at the club seems a good idea. Because until that point, you are just learning how to play and your handicap is at a level that makes big allowances for your low standard of skill.  

In other words, if you are so bad that you are off 24 after a couple of years of trying to get better then face facts, golf isn't the game for you necessarily.  And you certainly should not be winning prizes and plaudits if you still cannot hit the ball properly, 2 putt a green or plot your way around the course, because that would mean you are being rewarded for being frankly, a bit crap.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 21, 2015)

High handicappers suffer that shame all year long. Then maybe once or twice a year it all comes together and we finally pull 18 good holes together instead of 13 good and 5 flops. Now someone wants to take that hope and glory away from us. Time to bring out the pitchforks and march.

As it happens as you never get your full h/c, 3/4, 7/8 etc you may as well give everyone a maximum of 18 shots and be done with it. Let us win prizes though, come on.


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## garyinderry (Apr 21, 2015)

The distance ball is a joke prize that no one really wants.   Replace it with zero friction tee if you want. 

Everyone starts out rubbish at this game.  I truly believe people should practice quite a bit until they get to shooting in and around 18 handicap in Stable ford points.   

I believe high handicaps become a noose around people's necks and a kind of self fulfilling prophecy. 

Anyone who thinks I am being elitist can do so. They don't know me and how much I like to help newbies to this game. 

If you have been playing for years and can't shoot near 18 handicap then the stigma of playing off forward tees needs to be removed. They are encouraging this in America.  I think it's a fantastic idea.

Making people shoot in the 100s off the back sticks in comps is just silly.


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No it's not all about winning
		
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So why the obsession with 36 points, or Par?  If it's not about winning, then why does the score count? Stigmatising any score under 30 points is what will drive golfers away. Insisting that people should score 36 points is what will drive golfers away. Encouraging people to enjoy the game, whilst rewarding improvement is what will encourage golfers to play more.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

Snelly said:



			Phil - I don't agree with you. 

When I was a kid, golf was far more popular with big waiting lists at every club and the maximum handicap you could have was 18.  This went up to 24 in the year I got my first handicap.  

The number of shots received or how much of a chance one had of winning were totally irrelevant to whether you took up the game or enjoyed it. 


For what it is worth, here is my twopenneth.  If you are a relatively fit adult then you should be able to play golf reasonably well with a bit of graft and application.  But when you start out, you are basically rubbish, quite naturally of course as you are a total beginner.  

Consequently, you get given a very generous handicap that allows you to start out on your journey to become a golfer - currently 28 for men I believe?   As you become competitive, your handicap comes down reasonably quickly and even if you aren't all that brilliant, you can at least knock it round the course, perhaps dropping one shot a hole and a couple of shots on a hole every once in a while.    As a result, a handicap of 18 seems like a good point at which you can say you are no longer a complete hacker and can play golf to a standard that is acceptable.    

For me, this being a threshold at which you can then enter the main competitions at the club seems a good idea. Because until that point, you are just learning how to play and your handicap is at a level that makes big allowances for your low standard of skill.  

*In other words, if you are so bad that you are off 24 after a couple of years of trying to get better then face facts, golf isn't the game for you necessarily.  *And you certainly should not be winning prizes and plaudits if you still cannot hit the ball properly, 2 putt a green or plot your way around the course, because that would mean you are being rewarded for being frankly, a bit crap.
		
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It's a shame that such a well written post was finished with the highlighted area 

Labelling players based on the HC is wrong 

Hackers ?! bandits ?! - if anyone wanted to take up the game and read this thread then readin posts like that would just make them turn away regardless of their ability - why would or should they be judged by people based on a number. 

Thousands maybe more people have HC of over 18 yet still turn up week in week out and play the game - some and possibly a lot will never get to 18 regardless of how many lessons they have or what age etc they are.

Over the last two years I have added over 30 brand new golfers onto the system - none were given 28 because their three cards didn't point to a 28 and only one has won a competition - a number of them have decreased their HC a small bit with a couple of placing a but all taking part in comps and fully enjoying the game - remove that from them and I reckon all would have given up within the first three months.


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## adam6177 (Apr 21, 2015)

Snelly said:



			In other words, if you are so bad that you are off 24 after a couple of years of trying to get better then face facts, golf isn't the game for you necessarily.  And you certainly should not be winning prizes and plaudits if you still cannot hit the ball properly, 2 putt a green or plot your way around the course, because that would mean you are being rewarded for being frankly, a bit crap.
		
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Wow, just wow.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			So why the obsession with 36 points, or Par?  If it's not about winning, then why does the score count? Stigmatising any score under 30 points is what will drive golfers away. Insisting that people should score 36 points is what will drive golfers away. Encouraging people to enjoy the game, whilst rewarding improvement is what will encourage golfers to play more.
		
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36 points is playing to the HC they are given but very rarely wins comps 

We are only supposed to play to our HC approx 3 times - when people do that in the comp they are generally delighted with themselves and chuffed they played to their HC - they don't win the comp but that doesn't matter to them 

No one said players "should" score 36 or play to their HC but at least give the guys a chance to do that - instead of restricting to a max HC of 18 and these guys will never play to a HC of 18 and will just crush them. 

Yesterday a guy who has been playing for about 10 years has a HC of 23 finally got 36 points and was over the moon - chuffed to bits - that will make him delighted for ages and then he will go out again with his mates and have a good crack in the hope that again in a few years time he will get 36 points again


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			The distance ball is a joke prize that no one really wants.   Replace it with zero friction tee if you want. 

Everyone starts out rubbish at this game.  I truly believe people should practice quite a bit until they get to shooting in and around 18 handicap in Stable ford points.   

I believe high handicaps become a noose around people's necks and a kind of self fulfilling prophecy. 

Anyone who thinks I am being elitist can do so. They don't know me and how much I like to help newbies to this game. 

If you have been playing for years and can't shoot near 18 handicap then the* stigma of playing off forward tees needs to be removed.* They are encouraging this in America.  I think it's a fantastic idea.

Making people shoot in the 100s off the back sticks in comps is just silly.
		
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That just adds more elitism and divisive based on someone's HC. 

No one is making them score 100's of the back tee - they are turning up and entering and playing of the backs and going back to do it again week after week - why tell them "sorry you are not good enough to use that tee" 

Would see the reaction right now and it would IMO lose golfers


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			36 points is playing to the HC they are given but very rarely wins comps 

We are only supposed to play to our HC approx 3 times - when people do that in the comp they are generally delighted with themselves and chuffed they played to their HC - they don't win the comp but that doesn't matter to them 

No one said players "should" score 36 or play to their HC but at least give the guys a chance to do that - instead of restricting to a max HC of 18 and these guys will never play to a HC of 18 and will just crush them. 

Yesterday a guy who has been playing for about 10 years has a HC of 23 finally got 36 points and was over the moon - chuffed to bits - that will make him delighted for ages and then he will go out again with his mates and have a good crack in the hope that again in a few years time he will get 36 points again
		
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why should it "crush them". Who exactly is stigmatising golfers here?  Play the game, enjoy yourself, forget the bad shots, remember the good ones, forget the mythical 36 points. If you then become good enough to compete with the lower guys, then that is what should excite you. That is what should motivate you. Why should golf be the only (I think) sport that doesn't openly encourage practice and improvement?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			why should it "crush them". Who exactly is stigmatising golfers here?  Play the game, enjoy yourself, forget the bad shots, remember the good ones, forget the mythical 36 points. If you then become good enough to compete with the lower guys, then that is what should excite you. That is what should motivate you. Why should golf be the only (I think) sport that doesn't openly encourage practice and improvement?
		
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All sports encourage participation and enjoyment as the main aims - plenty of people in golf encourage practise and improvement - magazines , Pro's , vlogs etc - 

But golf as its biggest selling point to people is allowing people of all ages , sex , ability etc play on the same course together without splitting them up - it's a big pulling point in golf. 

It allows me to play with my regular playing partners who range in HC from 5 to 25 and I expect that's the same at every club up and down the land and it's IMO the main reason people start to play the game - remove that and you remove a number of people from the game. 

And yes I believe if someone never has the chance of getting near to playing to his HC then it would crush him and he would give up the game.


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			All sports encourage participation and enjoyment as the main aims - plenty of people in golf encourage practise and improvement - magazines , Pro's , vlogs etc - 

But golf as its biggest selling point to people is allowing people of all ages , sex , ability etc play on the same course together without splitting them up - it's a big pulling point in golf. 

It allows me to play with my regular playing partners who range in HC from 5 to 25 and I expect that's the same at every club up and down the land and it's IMO the main reason people start to play the game - remove that and you remove a number of people from the game. 

And yes I believe if someone never has the chance of getting near to playing to his HC then it would crush him and he would give up the game.
		
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Making the max hc 18 would not change the fact that you play rounds with your friends. Oh, and holding up golf as a paragon of social inclusion is frankly hilarious. 

Participation and enjoyment are important. But so are practice and improvement. I simply do not agree that "it's the taking part that counts". It's not true in real life, and it's not true in sport.


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## adam6177 (Apr 21, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			I simply do not agree that "it's the taking part that counts". It's not true in real life, and it's not true in sport.
		
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I guess this is the bit that is each to their own..... I play in a society that meets 4 times per year, normally around 35 guys with handicaps ranging from 14 to 60 (yes 60) as some of the guys go round  a course in  130-140 shots.  It is all about spending time with their friends, having good crack and not caring about the score.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Making the max hc 18 would not change the fact that you play rounds with your friends. Oh, and holding up golf as a paragon of social inclusion is frankly hilarious. 

Participation and enjoyment are important. But so are practice and improvement. I simply do not agree that "it's the taking part that counts". It's not true in real life, and it's not true in sport.
		
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Well if some of my FC were told they aren't allowed to play in a comp because they aren't a HC of 18 then they would leave - if the guys playing over 18 were told they were all now playing of 18 then one would be delighted but will never play to it and will be frustrated - the others would also just give up the game - that would be 8 of our group of 24 that would be gone 

And yes I believe at our level and when it's not putting the food on your table it is certainly the taking part that counts and that is exactly how I approach every single game I play. Far more important that practise ?! I level zero importance on practise - none at all


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## Snelly (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Labelling players based on the HC is wrong 

Hackers ?! bandits ?! - if anyone wanted to take up the game and read this thread then readin posts like that would just make them turn away regardless of their ability - why would or should they be judged by people based on a number.
		
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Forget the term hacker.  

Let me be more unequivocal.  If you are a 24+ handicap golfer then you are rubbish at golf.  Absolutely useless.  I am genuinely sorry if that upsets anyone but it is a fact.    When I was off 22, I was rubbish. I knew it and was desperate to improve and I did by thinking about what I was doing wrong and fixing it.  I am sure that I would've seen getting to 18 and being made eligible for competitions as a goal to achieve as fast as possible rather than something off-putting. 

Being off 28 at golf - what does that look like in terms of comparisons to other sports?  

Snooker - incapable of potting a ball
Football - can't pass, shoot or tackle
Tennis - cannot get the ball over the net

If you were playing these sports and had this level of skill, would you expect to be able to win a prize?  To be declared you were the best on that day in your club?  

Of course, one of the joys of golf is that it has a handicap system that means the exceptional can have a meaningful game with the less able and that is a genuinely brilliant thing.  However, scoring a gross 97 (which in anyone's book isn't exactly sparkling golf) and winning a major competition, therefore being hailed as the best man or woman on the day seems a bit odd to me.

That isn't to say I do not agree with many of the sentiments expressed in this thread about high handicappers having exceptional days and winning things.  I think this is a fantastic aspect to golf and long may it continue.  Being off 18 and shooting a nett 66 to win the medal is a wonderful thing.  But at that level, you've still managed to put bat on ball correctly and construct a score.  I just feel that saying the same after you've got an extra 10 shots to play with is not the same and a prize winning gross score in the high 90's doesn't have the same ring to it. 

Far from it in fact.  

And where do you draw the line?  Why can't someone have a handicap of 42 on day 1?  At least it gives them a chance of winning eh?  Thing is, chances at winning something significant should be earned with effort in my book, not gifted in the interests of inclusivity or kindness. 

Apologies if this creates offence.  None intended.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

Snelly said:



			Forget the term hacker.  

Let me be more unequivocal.  If you are a 24+ handicap golfer then you are rubbish at golf.  Absolutely useless.  I am genuinely sorry if that upsets anyone but it is a fact.    When I was off 22, I was rubbish. I knew it and was desperate to improve and I did by thinking about what I was doing wrong and fixing it.  I am sure that I would've seen getting to 18 and being made eligible for competitions as a goal to achieve as fast as possible rather than something off-putting. 

Being off 28 at golf - what does that look like in terms of comparisons to other sports?  

Snooker - incapable of potting a ball
Football - can't pass, shoot or tackle
Tennis - cannot get the ball over the net

If you were playing these sports and had this level of skill, would you expect to be able to win a prize?  To be declared you were the best on that day in your club?  

Of course, one of the joys of golf is that it has a handicap system that means the exceptional can have a meaningful game with the less able and that is a genuinely brilliant thing.  However, scoring a gross 97 (which in anyone's book isn't exactly sparkling golf) and winning a major competition, therefore being hailed as the best man or woman on the day seems a bit odd to me.

That isn't to say I do not agree with many of the sentiments expressed in this thread about high handicappers having exceptional days and winning things.  I think this is a fantastic aspect to golf and long may it continue.  Being off 18 and shooting a nett 66 to win the medal is a wonderful thing.  But at that level, you've still managed to put bat on ball correctly and construct a score.  I just feel that saying the same after you've got an extra 10 shots to play with is not the same and a prize winning gross score in the high 90's doesn't have the same ring to it. 

Far from it in fact.  

And where do you draw the line?  Why can't someone have a handicap of 42 on day 1?  At least it gives them a chance of winning eh?  Thing is, chances at winning something significant should be earned with effort in my book, not gifted in the interests of inclusivity or kindness. 

Apologies if this creates offence.  None intended.
		
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Well the plans are to increase the maximum HC people can get so yes people will and can start with a higher HC than 28 possibly in the future - numbers of people playing is decreasing and it's one of the things they are going to do to increase the amount of people playing - encourage participation in the game 

I don't think it can ever be compared to other sports because there is a HC system in place to bring a level playing field to a Handicap Competition. It's about who scored the best that day relative to their HC - if it's always about who is the best golfer then just scrap HC and award to the best gross prize for every comp and golf dies away. 

It's Handicap Comp golf - the gross score people have is irrelevant - it's the net score that matters.


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well if some of my FC were told they aren't allowed to play in a comp because they aren't a HC of 18 then they would leave - if the guys playing over 18 were told they were all now playing of 18 then one would be delighted but will never play to it and will be frustrated - the others would also just give up the game - that would be 8 of our group of 24 that would be gone 

And yes I believe at our level and when it's not putting the food on your table it is certainly the taking part that counts and that is exactly how I approach every single game I play. Far more important that practise ?! I level zero importance on practise - none at all
		
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I find it quite strange that you know exactly what each of your PP's would do in this situation... I don't know what any of my PP's would do in most given situations... Curiouser and curiouser...

If it's the taking part that counts, then the score doesn't matter does it.. If the score matters, then you're not focusing on the taking part.. You can't hog both sides of the argument Phil, even with your prodigious talent in the area


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 21, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			The distance ball is a joke prize that no one really wants.   Replace it with zero friction tee if you want. 

Everyone starts out rubbish at this game.  I truly believe people should practice quite a bit until they get to shooting in and around 18 handicap in Stable ford points.   

I believe high handicaps become a noose around people's necks and a kind of self fulfilling prophecy. 

Anyone who thinks I am being elitist can do so. They don't know me and how much I like to help newbies to this game. 

If you have been playing for years and can't shoot near 18 handicap then the stigma of playing off forward tees needs to be removed. They are encouraging this in America.  I think it's a fantastic idea.

Making people shoot in the 100s off the back sticks in comps is just silly.
		
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Nar, the're all right about you. Your a handicap snob........

One thing to consider is age. 

Lots of people years ago, and probably even now didn't take up golf until into their 40's, as other sports became harder to compete in, as fitness is a larger factor. Some also only take it up as they approach or get to retirement.

Unlike you, you young whippersnapper, so they cant hit even decent lengths (lets say 200 yards with a driver) either due to slow swing speeds, and/or lack of technique, as a beginner.

One option is for handicappers over (18/22/24/28 - whatever you think) cant go in club majors, but can go in monthly medals/stablefords etc, and 2/3rds of the comps. Not saying I advocate this, but throw it into the mix and retire safely.......

For the record - bandits can be playing off any handicap, not just high ones.:thup:


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## Snelly (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's Handicap Comp golf - the gross score people have is irrelevant - it's the net score that matters.
		
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I agree with the sentiment here but have an opinion that differs with others in terms of what is a reasonable amount of shots to take off your score to determine a nett figure at the highest point of the handicap scale.  

28 handicap equating to a prize winning round of golf is rewarding mediocrity in my opinion.


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well the plans are to increase the maximum HC people can get so yes people will and can start with a higher HC than 28 possibly in the future - numbers of people playing is decreasing and it's one of the things they are going to do to increase the amount of people playing - encourage participation in the game
		
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On a slight tangent, do you believe that this will work? In my honest opinion, it will have absolutely zero effect on the number of people playing this game.. None, Zilch, Nada.... People aren't playing golf for a number of reasons.. The fact they can't get a 40 H/C is most likely not one of them...


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			I find it quite strange that you know exactly what each of your PP's would do in this situation... I don't know what any of my PP's would do in most given situations... Curiouser and curiouser...

If it's the taking part that counts, then the score doesn't matter does it.. If the score matters, then you're not focusing on the taking part.. You can't hog both sides of the argument Phil, even with your prodigious talent in the area 

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It's been a discussion in our group when the talk moved to the increase of Max HC that will prob be introduced soon. One suggested the max was 18 and the discussion that happened after that showed exactly their views - and it's a view heard from many in the club 

The taking part is the main aim but that doesn't mean the score is irrelevant to some 

Some just have an aim to play to their HC - not to win or shoot the lights out but to play to their HC and restrict the max HC to 18 would take away that chance.


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## Snelly (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverbirdie said:



			One thing to consider is age.
		
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I agree and am not including junior or senior players when making my observations on this thread.  They should have separate categories for major competitions if their handicaps are outside an upper limit for the event.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

Snelly said:



			I agree with the sentiment here but have an opinion that differs with others in terms of what is a reasonable amount of shots to take off your score to determine a nett figure at the highest point of the handicap scale.  

28 handicap equating to a prize winning round of golf is rewarding mediocrity in my opinion.
		
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Is it not rewarding a result relative to a person's playing ability - hence why it's a HC comp 

That's valid for any comp that awards the nett winner and not the gross winner.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			On a slight tangent, do you believe that this will work? In my honest opinion, it will have absolutely zero effect on the number of people playing this game.. None, Zilch, Nada.... People aren't playing golf for a number of reasons.. The fact they can't get a 40 H/C is most likely not one of them...
		
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I have no idea but EGU suggested that it helped increase participation in Europe and in the U.S. ? 

But I believe reducing the HC would have the opposite effect

Ps - isn't it great to have a debate in a respectful and adult way even with such an emotive subject


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## bluewolf (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have no idea but EGU suggested that it helped increase participation in Europe and in the U.S. ? 

But I believe reducing the HC would have the opposite effect

Ps - isn't it great to have a debate in a respectful and adult way even with such an emotive subject
		
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It's early yet mate.. It could still go pear shaped...  

I genuinely can't see where a rise in the max H/C would help to attract people to the sport. It may keep some, but if you're shooting 100+ on a regular basis. then winning comps should not be at the forefront of your thoughts...
I've been taking my lad to the course recently, along with the range.. I'm taking him to play a local Par 3 9 holer tonight.. I still don't think he's going to take up the game though.. I've just asked him why, and his first response is that golf won't keep him fit, there's not enough kids his age and that there are definitely not enough girls playing (just like his old man )


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 21, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			It's early yet mate.. It could still go pear shaped...  

I genuinely can't see where a rise in the max H/C would help to attract people to the sport. It may keep some, but if you're shooting 100+ on a regular basis. then winning comps should not be at the forefront of your thoughts...
I've been taking my lad to the course recently, along with the range.. I'm taking him to play a local Par 3 9 holer tonight.. I still don't think he's going to take up the game though.. I've just asked him why, and his first response is that golf won't keep him fit, there's not enough kids his age and that there are definitely not enough girls playing (just like his old man )
		
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I think the idea is aimed more at the 20's to middle aged men - the guys you see at the range just smashing the ball for a laugh etc 

I'm happy with it exactly how it is - in the three years I have been doing HC and Comps - I dont see many if any 28 HC win any comps - the HC comps are a spread of winners from scratch players to high 20's , stablefords are more popular and don't see the "newcomers" winning regularly - all the issues people have posted - Delc being the perfect example - I haven't witnessed and when he looks at his comps he will also see that it doesn't exist at his club. 

The only issue I think should be looked at is match play and the amount of shots given - should IMO reduced from full allowance to 3/4


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 21, 2015)

Markw said:



			IF you are averaging 34 pts then some might say your handicap is too high!
		
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Indeed - if your handicap is correct and you play your average game with average luck then you will score about 32 pts.  34pts - a better luck day and things going pretty good with the game.  36pts.  Playing pretty darned well and no real bad luck.  38pts+ top of your game, no bad breaks and a few good ones.  40pts+ top of your game and got some good breaks - holed some mega putts, chipped in etc.  Do 34pts-36pts or more most of the time then your h/cap ain't right.


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2015)

Not read the last ten pages but I genuinely believe handicaps will be increased having been present at the CONGU briefing. What's the problem, it works well in the rest of the world so it should work here. It just means that competitions within clubs need to be thought through and clubs need to DO or adjust conditions of entry. Progressive clubs will possibly have a comp be it silverware or championships for 0-18 players and further comps for 20-45 or whatever players. If you have your unofficial roll ups and there are some 30+ handicap layers just split the divisions or if you feel so insecure and unable to play or justify your handicap don't join in.

I have resently given 2 of my seniors official playing handicaps off 36. They have rocked up at every comp and never ever won a penny after donating I suspect several hundred pounds to the pot over the years. They are happy because they are coming in with half reasonable scores even though they are still not winning and have even started putting their names down for more comps. The seniors are happy because the two are joining in more.

The half hour going through the magic book was well worth it.


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The only issue I think should be looked at is match play and the amount of shots given - should IMO reduced from full allowance to 3/4
		
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The data being obtained now after 3 years with Q scores being submitted to HQ and various modelling tools doesn't support this and it looks like they now have it right. The information we were given was that few if any other country uses 3/4 and after a survey done in our area even after the change to full difference the low handicapper wins out in the majority of matches.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 21, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			Not read the last ten pages but I genuinely believe handicaps will be increased having been present at the CONGU briefing. What's the problem, it works well in the rest of the world so it should work here. It just means that competitions within clubs need to be thought through and clubs need to DO or adjust conditions of entry. Progressive clubs will possibly have a comp be it silverware or championships for 0-18 players and further comps for 20-45 or whatever players. If you have your unofficial roll ups and there are some 30+ handicap layers just split the divisions or if you feel so insecure and unable to play or justify your handicap don't join in.

I have resently given 2 of my seniors official playing handicaps off 36. They have rocked up at every comp and never ever won a penny after donating I suspect several hundred pounds to the pot over the years. They are happy because they are coming in with half reasonable scores even though they are still not winning and have even started putting their names down for more comps. The seniors are happy because the two are joining in more.

The half hour going through the magic book was well worth it.
		
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I agree with some points, but cant help picturing the scenario of the 36 handicapper sitting in the bar at 3.50 in the lead then a 44 handicapper coming in with a better score, and the 34 man accusing him of being a bandit.


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## Martin70 (Apr 21, 2015)

Why not just widen the holes to make putting easier? :thup:


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## NWJocko (Apr 21, 2015)

Markw said:



			I have shot 4 under current hc once in last 2 years so no wouldn't as it's takes a lot of hard work and effort to maintain my current hc.
		
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It really doesn't take "a lot of hard work and effort" to maintain a 7 handicap.

I've done it for a few years and I'm pretty crap and very rarely practice..

If you're talking 2/3 handicap then it probably does take a lot of work, I doubt I'll ever know though!!! :rofl:


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## Old Skier (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverbirdie said:



			I agree with some points, but cant help picturing the scenario of the 36 handicapper sitting in the bar at 3.50 in the lead then a 44 handicapper coming in with a better score, and the 34 man accusing him of being a bandit.

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Have a like.


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## Foxholer (Apr 21, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The only issue I think should be looked at is match play and the amount of shots given - should IMO reduced from full allowance to 3/4
		
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Where are any facts that back up this opinion?

There's absolutely no justification from any statistics I've seen - just look at the Club Knockout later rounds and you are much more likely to see lower handicapped dominating them! SGU also did a study showing that any 'distortion' is more in favour of the lower 'capped player!


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 21, 2015)

Still fail to see despite many pages of guff how restricting players to 18 will encourage members to play in comps they have no chance of being competitive in and why there's a need to over complicate the monthly stableford or medal and have numerous divisions. Surely the idea of a handicap is that you're not actually suppose to play to it in every competitive round anyway, and if you do it suggests you're handicap is way too high anyway.

Many clubs have winners across a wide range of handicaps as posted on here and I'm sure ours will be the same.


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## Markw (Apr 21, 2015)

NWJocko said:



			It really doesn't take "a lot of hard work and effort" to maintain a 7 handicap.

I've done it for a few years and I'm pretty crap and very rarely practice..

If you're talking 2/3 handicap then it probably does take a lot of work, I doubt I'll ever know though!!! :rofl:
		
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That concludes what we have been discussing, nail on the head. if it doesn't take any hard work to get to 7 and I'm crap myself as well, why would playing off 18 be a problem, should get there really quickly?


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 21, 2015)

But the point is there are those who are happy with their lot off 20 something and have no inclination at all to hit any practice balls, get lessons or work on their technique. Turn up hit it and mark their score and enjoy the round and the company. Why penalise them for that take? There are others who get an initial handicap and then work hard to improve and sadly this is where the handicap system has a flaw in that it doesn't catch up with these quickly enough. Is the current system flawed. Definitely but it's by and large functional, especially for the poor souls tasked with doing the handicaps. Is a change to something new, untested (certainly over here) really going to make a difference.


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## NWJocko (Apr 21, 2015)

Markw said:



			That concludes what we have been discussing, nail on the head. if it doesn't take any hard work to get to 7 and I'm crap myself as well, why would playing off 18 be a problem, should get there really quickly?
		
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Lack of hand/eye co-ordination, starting the game late (I was lucky and started as a very young kid so easy to come back to), "natural ability", age, injury etc etc.

There are many reasons folk won't get lower than 18/a.n.other arbitrary number.

I've said it before but your handicap is a bit high for snobbery on that front IMO, you make it sound like you're a scratch player in the post I quoted!!!


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 21, 2015)

Do we need to split this forum along the lines mentioned, low handicap golfers and lazy good for nothings like myself? :ears:


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## Markw (Apr 21, 2015)

NWJocko said:



			Lack of hand/eye co-ordination, starting the game late (I was lucky and started as a very young kid so easy to come back to), "natural ability", age, injury etc etc.

There are many reasons folk won't get lower than 18/a.n.other arbitrary number.

I've said it before but your handicap is a bit high for snobbery on that front IMO, you make it sound like you're a scratch player in the post I quoted!!!
		
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Ohh I see, so if you haven't got natural ability, old and injury then getting down to a mid handicap of 7 is quite reasonable!


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## NWJocko (Apr 21, 2015)

Markw said:



			Ohh I see, so if you haven't got natural ability, old and injury then getting down to a mid handicap of 7 is quite reasonable!
		
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Forget it. :thup:


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 21, 2015)

Joking apart there does seem to be a lack of understanding in some quarters as to how sport is difficult for some and easy for others. I am one of many golfers who played other sports for most of my life. I came to golf when my body could no longer take my chosen sports. I was good at something else, 1st team club player for many years yet I struggle at golf. What came to me easily and naturally in one is now difficult in another. If I practiced and played more, impractical due to family life, I would be better but I suspect still nowhere near the level I was in my previous sport. That is how it works, you are good at some things but rarely at all. 

One of the joys of golf is that it copes with moderate level of competency and keeps all people involved. This should be celebrated.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 21, 2015)

NWJocko said:



			Lack of hand/eye co-ordination, starting the game late (I was lucky and started as a very young kid so easy to come back to), "natural ability", age, injury etc etc.

There are many reasons folk won't get lower than 18/a.n.other arbitrary number.

I've said it before but your handicap is a bit high for snobbery on that front IMO, you make it sound like you're a scratch player in the post I quoted!!!
		
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Let me present exhibit A: HomerJSimpson. 

Many on here will argue that I seemed to have plateaued around the 11-12 mark despite working hard on trying to get better. Now imagine if that's someone who does put some effort in and never really gets below 20. Why penalise him when that's his level. Now I have an inherent stubborn streak that says I'm getting to single figure again at some point, ideally in 2015 (but that's a whole debate for another thread) but others may be quite happy with their lot. Some may be happy off 19-28 (pick a number) and know that once in a blue moon they will have a good day and be close to the prizes but for the majority of time they will be down in the also rans. Why persecute them and put them off playing in comps when even their once in a blue moon days are taken away


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## JustOne (Apr 21, 2015)

Snelly said:



			Phil - I don't agree with you. 

When I was a kid, golf was far more popular with big waiting lists at every club and the maximum handicap you could have was 18.  This went up to 24 in the year I got my first handicap.  

The number of shots received or how much of a chance one had of winning were totally irrelevant to whether you took up the game or enjoyed it. 


For what it is worth, here is my twopenneth.  If you are a relatively fit adult then you should be able to play golf reasonably well with a bit of graft and application.  But when you start out, you are basically rubbish, quite naturally of course as you are a total beginner.  

Consequently, you get given a very generous handicap that allows you to start out on your journey to become a golfer - currently 28 for men I believe?   As you become competitive, your handicap comes down reasonably quickly and even if you aren't all that brilliant, you can at least knock it round the course, perhaps dropping one shot a hole and a couple of shots on a hole every once in a while.    As a result, a handicap of 18 seems like a good point at which you can say you are no longer a complete hacker and can play golf to a standard that is acceptable.    

For me, this being a threshold at which you can then enter the main competitions at the club seems a good idea. Because until that point, you are just learning how to play and your handicap is at a level that makes big allowances for your low standard of skill.  

In other words, if you are so bad that you are off 24 *after a couple of years of trying to get better then face facts, golf isn't the game for you necessarily.*  And you certainly should not be winning prizes and plaudits if you still cannot hit the ball properly, 2 putt a green or plot your way around the course, because that would mean you are being rewarded for being frankly, a bit crap.
		
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Interesting post, I mostly agree Dave.

I wouldn't go as far as saying "golf isn't for you" as you have the opportunity to play the game as best as you can - if that's pretty poorly then so be it - you can still enjoy it, that said I think you should only play comps that are within your h/cap category (which already happens in many club comps, eg 18-28h/caps are bracketed together I think).

I would like to see that anyone under 35 has to start with a max h/cap of 18 as they probably have the physicality to play somewhere close to that within a year or two.... in which time their h/cap may have slipped to 20/21 with the comps they've played in.

I totally understand that some people really can't get a grip of 'the game' for instance in the two rounds I've had with one of my mates he shot 154 and 175 but that's not to say he/we didn't have a great day out (and I made sure we didn't hold anyone up!)


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## louise_a (Apr 21, 2015)

Just out of interest, what do people win in men's comps? The winners of our weekly competitions get a Â£15 gift voucher. I we win a major we get our name on the board and an engraved glass. Hardly worth protecting your handicap to win or to get upset about if the comp is won by someone with a high handicap.


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## upsidedown (Apr 21, 2015)

louise_a said:



			Just out of interest, what do people win in men's comps? The winners of our weekly competitions get a Â£15 gift voucher. I we win a major we get our name on the board and an engraved glass. Hardly worth protecting your handicap to win or to get upset about if the comp is won by someone with a high handicap.
		
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Seems to around the Â£45 to Â£50 mark at our place which goes on your pro shop account .


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## GB72 (Apr 21, 2015)

louise_a said:



			Just out of interest, what do people win in men's comps? The winners of our weekly competitions get a Â£15 gift voucher. I we win a major we get our name on the board and an engraved glass. Hardly worth protecting your handicap to win or to get upset about if the comp is won by someone with a high handicap.
		
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You would be surprised. Sadly I know people, one in particular, who just have to win. Does not matter about the prize or anything else, just being able to say he won is all that matters. He would happily take another 5 shots on his handicap if it meant winning every week.


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## evahakool (Apr 21, 2015)

I would like to see that anyone under 35 has to start with a max h/cap of 18 as they probably have the physicality to play somewhere close to that within a year or two.... in which time their h/cap may have slipped to 20/21 with the comps they've played 

I would go along with this as a good compromise . Good idea

Edit.  Justones idea not mine messed up on the Quote.


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## NorfolkShaun (Apr 21, 2015)

I think the one thing that needs to be done is what is needed to increase participation in golf. 

One thing I think that will help is increasing the handicap limit, sadly some people will never break 100 and there is no reason the should not be allowed to compete in competitions. If they pocket a few quid so what. 

I think too many are getting mixed up with high handicap golfers and people who manipulate their handicap to compete in things like the Trilby Tour

I play football as wells as golf, i'm pretty poor at football but enjoy it should I be told i'm not good enough to play as i do not practice enough.


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## Farneyman (Apr 21, 2015)

To me it doesn't matter how high or low someone's handicap is. It's all about beating my personal best. I play golf for enjoyment and to try and get better. 

18,22,26,30,34,37,43 points who cares...It's all down to playing stroke play medals and beating my best of 80 (+11)  

Am I bitter if someone wins a medal by playing 3,4,5,6,7 etc under their HC....nope especially if I manage to break 80 for the first time.

I have never entered a comp to win, only to get a cut by shooting my lowest score. To me that is what golf is/should be about. Not averaging the 36 points which so many here seem to wish for.


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## Snelly (Apr 21, 2015)

JustOne said:



			Interesting post, I mostly agree Dave.

I wouldn't go as far as saying "golf isn't for you" as you have the opportunity to play the game as best as you can - if that's pretty poorly then so be it - you can still enjoy it, that said I think you should only play comps that are within your h/cap category (which already happens in many club comps, eg 18-28h/caps are bracketed together I think).

I would like to see that anyone under 35 has to start with a max h/cap of 18 as they probably have the physicality to play somewhere close to that within a year or two.... in which time their h/cap may have slipped to 20/21 with the comps they've played in.

I totally understand that some people really can't get a grip of 'the game' for instance in the two rounds I've had with one of my mates he shot 154 and 175 but that's not to say he/we didn't have a great day out (and I made sure we didn't hold anyone up!)
		
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Yes I think that makes sense - good idea.

And to reiterate - I said golf isn't for you "necessarily" - which is different from stopping playing..  I agree with you that plenty of people get huge amounts from golf and never break 90 but far be it from me to suggest they shouldn't play - the more the merrier.


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## Slab (Apr 22, 2015)

I think that as some of you have improved and progressed you've completely lost sight & understanding of the range of golfers ability

18 handicap is the average for men

Some of you are suggesting that any below average golfer must play comps off the average ability allowance! 

*Simple question, why? *What possible difference does it make to you & your game/score, other than to increase your chances of winning!

If that's what golf is all about for you then you're entering the wrong type of comp 



You must be desperate to protect your status within the game & so resentful of others if you choose to enter & play a handicap comp but wish to stifle the opportunities afforded by the handicap system in a handicap comp

Playing off 23 this makes me a below average golfer. Being below average does not mean I'm not fit to go on a course at weekends (when most courses tee times are crammed for comps)    

If the bitterness is really eating at you so much when a below average golfer occasionally shoots a better nett score than you then maybe handicap golf isn't the game for you

It doesn't mean the high HC guy is a better player, no one thinks it does. Rest assured your status along with my admiration for your ability is safe, but you entered a handicap comp! You must expect that from time to time a golfer of less talent and ability (sometimes even a below average golfer) will shoot an adjusted handicap score that beat yours

I think some need to learn to deal with this before it destroys their love of the game


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## North Mimms (Apr 22, 2015)

Just catching up on this thread and was going to comment on a couple of individual posts, but there is so much nonsense which has been written in the past 24 hours that I don't know where to start!


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## bluewolf (Apr 22, 2015)

adam6177 said:



			I guess this is the bit that is each to their own..... I play in a society that meets 4 times per year, normally around 35 guys with handicaps ranging from 14 to 60 (yes 60) as some of the guys go round  a course in  130-140 shots.  It is all about spending time with their friends, having good crack and not caring about the score.
		
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Sorry Adam, I missed your post... I totally agree that one of the main priorities of social golf should be having fun with your friends. My favourite time on the course is playing 18 holes with some good friends, with plenty of near the knuckle banter and playing only for a pint or a coffee..

 I'm not yet 100% sure that I agree that 18 should be the H/C for the majority of golf, but I do think that the big club comps should have an 18 H/C  limit..


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 22, 2015)

Slab said:



			I think that as some of you have improved and progressed you've completely lost sight & understanding of the range of golfers ability

18 handicap is the average for men

Some of you are suggesting that any below average golfer must play comps off the average ability allowance! 

*Simple question, why? *What possible difference does it make to you & your game/score, other than to increase your chances of winning!

If that's what golf is all about for you then you're entering the wrong type of comp 



You must be desperate to protect your status within the game & so resentful of others if you choose to enter & play a handicap comp but wish to stifle the opportunities afforded by the handicap system in a handicap comp

Playing off 23 this makes me a below average golfer. Being below average does not mean I'm not fit to go on a course at weekends (when most courses tee times are crammed for comps)    

If the bitterness is really eating at you so much when a below average golfer occasionally shoots a better nett score than you then maybe handicap golf isn't the game for you

It doesn't mean the high HC guy is a better player, no one thinks it does. Rest assured your status along with my admiration for your ability is safe, but you entered a handicap comp! You must expect that from time to time a golfer of less talent and ability (sometimes even a below average golfer) will shoot an adjusted handicap score that beat yours

I think some need to learn to deal with this before it destroys their love of the game
		
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Pretty much this


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## JustOne (Apr 22, 2015)

Slab said:



			I think that as some of you have improved and progressed you've completely lost sight & understanding of the range of golfers ability

18 handicap is the average for men

Some of you are suggesting that any below average golfer must play comps off the average ability allowance! 

*Simple question, why? *What possible difference does it make to you & your game/score, other than to increase your chances of winning!

If that's what golf is all about for you then you're entering the wrong type of comp 



You must be desperate to protect your status within the game & so resentful of others if you choose to enter & play a handicap comp but wish to stifle the opportunities afforded by the handicap system in a handicap comp

Playing off 23 this makes me a below average golfer. Being below average does not mean I'm not fit to go on a course at weekends (when most courses tee times are crammed for comps)    

If the bitterness is really eating at you so much when a below average golfer occasionally shoots a better nett score than you then maybe handicap golf isn't the game for you

It doesn't mean the high HC guy is a better player, no one thinks it does. Rest assured your status along with my admiration for your ability is safe, but you entered a handicap comp! You must expect that from time to time a golfer of less talent and ability (sometimes even a below average golfer) will shoot an adjusted handicap score that beat yours

I think some need to learn to deal with this before it destroys their love of the game
		
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If it shouldn't matter to a better golfer WHY should it matter so much to someone who can barely play the game (so to speak).

Should a 28 h/capper expect to win a comp or should they just worry about their own personal best (as suggested by Farneyman).



I don't really care as I pretty much just golf my own ball and winning comps has never really mattered to me BUT there is a huge air of discontentment in golf (from those who do/have spent a great deal of time/money trying to improve) pertaining to BANDITRY and subsequently the 'banter' which can affect people (see the original post) which CAN be dealt with if the system was to change.


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## garyinderry (Apr 22, 2015)

What seems to be ''wrong'' with wanting to win? 


Every time I tee it up in competition, I ideally would like to shoot lowest gross, lowest nett, bag a few twos, break the course record and win the comp. Sadly this doesn't happen too often (read at all) but each scenario is possible standing on the first. 

Shooting your best score ever should see you in with a chance of winning.  The two are not mutually exclusive.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 22, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			What seems to be ''wrong'' with wanting to win? 


Every time I tee it up in competition, I ideally would like to shoot lowest gross, lowest nett, bag a few twos, break the course record and win the comp. Sadly this doesn't happen too often (read at all) but each scenario is possible standing on the first. 

Shooting your best score ever should see you in with a chance of winning.  The two are not mutually exclusive.
		
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Nothing wrong with your attitude and it mirrors my own every time I play. However I can only control my own ball and my score and so if someone comes in with a much better score than me so be it. As long as I've played well and hit the buffer or got a cut then that's all I can do


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 22, 2015)

Slab said:



			I think that as some of you have improved and progressed you've completely lost sight & understanding of the range of golfers ability

18 handicap is the average for men

Some of you are suggesting that any below average golfer must play comps off the average ability allowance! 

*Simple question, why? *What possible difference does it make to you & your game/score, other than to increase your chances of winning!

If that's what golf is all about for you then you're entering the wrong type of comp 



You must be desperate to protect your status within the game & so resentful of others if you choose to enter & play a handicap comp but wish to stifle the opportunities afforded by the handicap system in a handicap comp

Playing off 23 this makes me a below average golfer. Being below average does not mean I'm not fit to go on a course at weekends (when most courses tee times are crammed for comps)    

If the bitterness is really eating at you so much when a below average golfer occasionally shoots a better nett score than you then maybe handicap golf isn't the game for you

It doesn't mean the high HC guy is a better player, no one thinks it does. Rest assured your status along with my admiration for your ability is safe, but you entered a handicap comp! You must expect that from time to time a golfer of less talent and ability (sometimes even a below average golfer) will shoot an adjusted handicap score that beat yours

I think some need to learn to deal with this before it destroys their love of the game
		
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Some people like to put people in boxes.

Not all low handicappers are ultimate competitors, high handicappers are not just there to make up the numbers, and can also be fiercely competitive. Not all high handicappers are slow, some of the low boys take the most time etc.

I didnt play in comps for 15 years, as I wasn't a member of a club, and just played muni golf with mates. I loved it. We were all rubbish to start with, no lessons, pick up balls, second hand clubs etc We just loved playing golf.

Over time I went from hacking around the 9 hole over to the main course (still a muni), carding scores in the 140's, and that's without applying all the rules.

By the time I joined a club I was playing to about 13-15. Its taken me 25 years to get on the cusp of cat 1 (may never achieve it), so I've done all the hard yards in between, and believe me, I'm not a practicer, I just love playing.

I'm now quite competitive, whether playing for a Â£1 or a club major. All the time though, I play with the right attitude and am good company, no matter the result.

However, I still think that some reasonable amount of ability should be achieved before going in comps, or at least separate comps may be the way forward.

I think 27 should be the high end of competitive golf handicaps 1 per hole, and 2 on half the course. Entry to club comps, but maybe a limit of 22 for club majors, or you have to play off 3/4.

If handicaps were given out to men up to 36 (the maximum IMHO), maybe 28-36 h/cappers should only be in their own divisional comp, and should be stableford only

Slow play is a curse of the modern game, and although all abilities can take their time, as I know, people going around in 120 plus in a monthly medal, of the whites in the wind and rain can't be conducive to fun, and the rest of the course should also be taken into account.

Middle ground - or a load of guff, you decide.

I've been both sides of the fence, and although it doesn't make me an expert, can at least see it from both sides.


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## dewsweeper (Apr 22, 2015)

Liverbirdie said:



			Some people like to put people in boxes.

Not all low handicappers are ultimate competitors, high handicappers are not just there to make up the numbers, and can also be fiercely competitive. Not all high handicappers are slow, some of the low boys take the most time etc.

I didnt play in comps for 15 years, as I wasn't a member of a club, and just played muni golf with mates. I loved it. We were all rubbish to start with, no lessons, pick up balls, second hand clubs etc We just loved playing golf.

Over time I went from hacking around the 9 hole over to the main course (still a muni), carding scores in the 140's, and that's without applying all the rules.

By the time I joined a club I was playing to about 13-15. Its taken me 25 years to get on the cusp of cat 1 (may never achieve it), so I've done all the hard yards in between, and believe me, I'm not a practicer, I just love playing.

I'm now quite competitive, whether playing for a Â£1 or a club major. All the time though, I play with the right attitude and am good company, no matter the result.

However, I still think that some reasonable amount of ability should be achieved before going in comps, or at least separate comps may be the way forward.

I think 27 should be the high end of competitive golf handicaps 1 per hole, and 2 on half the course. Entry to club comps, but maybe a limit of 22 for club majors, or you have to play off 3/4.

If handicaps were given out to men up to 36 (the maximum IMHO), maybe 28-36 h/cappers should only be in their own divisional comp, and should be stableford only

Slow play is a curse of the modern game, and although all abilities can take their time, as I know, people going around in 120 plus in a monthly medal, of the whites in the wind and rain can't be conducive to fun, and the rest of the course should also be taken into account.

Middle ground - or a load of guff, you decide.

I've been both sides of the fence, and although it doesn't make me an expert, can at least see it from both sides.
		
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I started golf like this at age 27,munis and society golf,alwaysnloved the game.
Eventually managed to join a club aged 40 and loved it even more.
Played and practised all my spare time and got down to 9 hc.Held that for 20 years,with the occasional success.
Now aged 75 I am off 20 hc and in all honesty struggle to get the buffer most comps but still miss that tingle on  the 1st tee of knowing you always had a chance of  podium place.
For what it is worth I feel you must play to get to the lowest  you can,success is sweeter if it is by your own efforts.
Different divisions for different handicaps could work.
As a foot note for the years I was off 9 I always entered  The Club Championship,a scratch 36 hole medsl competition.
No chance of winning but had the aim to break 80 in both rounds.
Never achieved it but felt good to be on the course mixing it with the big boys.
I honestly believe a Club Champion should be the winner of a scratch competition.
Dewsweeper


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## Sats (Apr 22, 2015)

What bothers me most is that handicaps aren't a set in stone method to measure a player. If that's the sort of person that's on the committee then I'd fudge that course off and play somewhere more accomodating. A golf clubs only as strong as its members.


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## Farneyman (Apr 22, 2015)

dewsweeper said:



			I honestly believe a Club Champion should be the winner of a scratch competition.
Dewsweeper
		
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Surely a Club Champion can't be anything other than this?

Medal and handicaps comp yeah can be won by a handicap but are there courses where the club champion is anything but a scratch comp??? (not necessarily a scratch golfer but played off the bare feet)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 22, 2015)

Farneyman said:



			Surely a Club Champion can't be anything other than this?

Medal and handicaps comp yeah can be won by a handicap but are there courses where the club champion is anything but a scratch comp??? (not necessarily a scratch golfer but played off the bare feet)
		
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Yup - Club Champion is your best gross on the day (or two) - never in my experience the best nett.


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## 6inchcup (Apr 22, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yup - Club Champion is your best gross on the day (or two) - never in my experience the best nett.
		
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But according to liverpoolphil scratch comps are elitist and anyone should be able to enter and win,all comps should be catagory comps so everyone has a chance of winning something


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 22, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			But according to liverpoolphil scratch comps are elitist and anyone should be able to enter and win,all comps should be catagory comps so everyone has a chance of winning something
		
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When did I say scratch comps are "elitist"?


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## Farneyman (Apr 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When did I say scratch comps are "elitist"?
		
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Do you think Club Champions should be scratch comps?


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## Old Skier (Apr 22, 2015)

Farneyman said:



			Do you think Club Champions should be scratch comps?
		
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Are you saying scratch or gross. If it's scratch it's open to a very limited audience.


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## North Mimms (Apr 22, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yup - Club Champion is your best gross on the day (or two) - never in my experience the best nett.
		
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Agree totally.
We  have a Hcp trophy for best nett but that was to ensure that more than one lady entered the Championship when the hcp range at my club was 18 - 36 and one lady off 5 ! (And nett winner doesn't get their name on a Board as i discovered the one year I won the nett)


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## Farneyman (Apr 22, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			Are you saying scratch or gross. If it's scratch it's open to a very limited audience.
		
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Not only open to scratch players, just no shots given. Played off scratch. 1,2,3,4 handicappers etc can play but don't recieve shots.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 22, 2015)

Farneyman said:



			Do you think Club Champions should be scratch comps?
		
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I believe the winner should be the one with the lowest gross 

We next year will restrict it to HC 12 and below because it's 36 holes and you can't have a big field for 36 holes


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 22, 2015)

Our club championship is lowest gross over two days and then a handicap prize as well but *only* the lowest gross is crowned as club champion and gets on the board


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## Farneyman (Apr 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe the winner should be the one with the lowest gross 

We next year will restrict it to HC 12 and below because it's 36 holes and you can't have a big field for 36 holes
		
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So next year from your club can an 11 hc golfer, for example, win the club championship?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 22, 2015)

Farneyman said:



			So next year from your club can an 11 hc golfer, for example, win the club championship?
		
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Yep he can indeed


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe the winner should be the one with the lowest gross 

We next year will restrict it to HC 12 and below because it's 36 holes and you can't have a big field for 36 holes
		
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What a poor show for all those above 12 that support the club all year. We have a handicap prize and a gross prize and pay one round on the Saturday and then make a halfway cut. The top dozen gross go out in reverse order (lowest three going out last) and the net scores go out prior to that. Works perfectly well and gives everyone a chance to ply in the most prestigious event of the year


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## Farneyman (Apr 22, 2015)

That's bonkers in my opinion.

Thanks for clearing it up.:thup:

I should add I thinks it bonkers that the club champion can be someone who hasnt the least number of strokes over the comp whether over 18/36 or matchplay situation.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 22, 2015)

Farneyman said:



			That's bonkers in my opinion.

Thanks for clearing it up.:thup:

I should add I thinks it bonkers that the club champion can be someone who hasnt the least number of strokes over the comp whether over 18/36 or matchplay situation.
		
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Confused ? What's bonkers ? If the 11 HC has the lowest gross he wins - the winner is the person with the lowest gross over 36 holes


We also have a Handicap Champs over 18 holes later in the year - HC 6 and above can enter


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## GB72 (Apr 22, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			What a poor show for all those above 12 that support the club all year. We have a handicap prize and a gross prize and pay one round on the Saturday and then make a halfway cut. The top dozen gross go out in reverse order (lowest three going out last) and the net scores go out prior to that. Works perfectly well and gives everyone a chance to ply in the most prestigious event of the year
		
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Not unusual at clubs round here. Both my current and last clubs allowed 72 entrants. Those 72 with the lowest handicaps get the slots. 36 holes in a day means not everyone can get in. We struggle to find slots for everyone on a normal weekend 18 hole comp


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 22, 2015)

GB72 said:



			Not unusual at clubs round here. Both my current and last clubs allowed 72 entrants. Those 72 with the lowest handicaps get the slots. 36 holes in a day means not everyone can get in. We struggle to find slots for everyone on a normal weekend 18 hole comp
		
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Woburn have it split also - 0-12 for scratch and 12 and above for HC and on different days


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## Farneyman (Apr 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe the winner should be the one with the lowest gross 

We next year will restrict it to HC 12 and below because it's 36 holes and you can't have a big field for 36 holes
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			Confused ? What's bonkers ? If the 11 HC has the lowest gross he wins - the winner is the person with the lowest gross over 36 holes


We also have a Handicap Champs over 18 holes later in the year - HC 6 and above can enter
		
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Sorry I think I get it now. lol.  At your club you are going limit entrants to max12HC  but the winner is still best gross over 2 rounds. Thought you meant hc golfers could still win using handicap and you were going to limit it to 12's next year. 

Got there in the end. :whoo:


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 22, 2015)

Farneyman said:



			Sorry I think I get it now. lol.  At your club you are going limit entrants to max12HC  but the winner is still best gross over 2 rounds. Thought you meant hc golfers could still win using handicap and you were going to limit it to 12's next year. 

Got there in the end. :whoo:
		
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Spot mate


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## Val (Apr 22, 2015)

Some of you are confusing Farneymans definition of lowest scratch which is a term used up in Scotland for Gross, so someone shooting 74 scratch is the same as someone shooting 74 gross.

Thought I'd clear that up


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 22, 2015)

Val said:



			Some of you are confusing Farneymans definition of lowest scratch which is a term used up in Scotland for Gross, so someone shooting 74 scratch is the same as someone shooting 74 gross.

Thought I'd clear that up 

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You lot have to be different  

Think I have heard it said that way a few times before :thup: - prob makes more sense


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## Val (Apr 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe the winner should be the one with the lowest gross 

We next year will restrict it to HC 12 and below because it's 36 holes and you can't have a big field for 36 holes
		
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Poor show IMO

You would be best making some medals before it double up as qualifiers so its 100% inclusive then restrict the field to top 50 (or whatever) and ties. It would be a shame for an improving golfer scoring around the 12hc mark for 3 or 4 medals but hasn't just managed to get cut to12 in time.

This is exactly what we do, best 2 gross scores from 7 qualifying medals to count and top x amount qualify for the 36 holer


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## Val (Apr 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You lot have to be different  

Think I have heard it said that way a few times before :thup: - prob makes more sense
		
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I've met you now Phil, you can call me a jock without fear  :rofl:


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 22, 2015)

Val said:



			Poor show IMO

You would be best making some medals before it double up as qualifiers so its 100% inclusive then restrict the field to top 50 (or whatever) and ties. It would be a shame for an improving golfer scoring around the 12hc mark for 3 or 4 medals but hasn't just managed to get cut to12 in time.

This is exactly what we do, best 2 gross scores from 7 qualifying medals to count and top x amount qualify for the 36 holer
		
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Yeah we thought of doing it that way and next year is a trial

The one thing I needed to do was move it away from one whole weekend booked out and to just one day 

First trial will be limit to HC and see how that goes - if it's not favourable ( so far response has been positive ) then qualifying rounds would be a next step 

We also moving our scratch club knockout to the top 16 from the club champs qualify


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## Farneyman (Apr 22, 2015)

Val said:



			Some of you are confusing Farneyman
		
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Not hard to do!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 22, 2015)

Val said:



			I've met you now Phil, you can call me a jock without fear  :rofl:
		
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Good to know :thup: 

Was great to finally meet :thup:

Not many more left that would like to meet


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## Val (Apr 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yeah we thought of doing it that way and next year is a trial

The one thing I needed to do was move it away from one whole weekend booked out and to just one day 

First trial will be limit to HC and see how that goes - if it's not favourable ( so far response has been positive ) then qualifying rounds would be a next step 

We also moving our scratch club knockout to the top 16 from the club champs qualify
		
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We have 2 scratch knock outs, 1 anyone can enter and 1 that the top 16 from club champs play, the second one is the more prestigious at our club as you need to qualify for 1 comp and qualify from it to even play in it.


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## Slab (Apr 23, 2015)

JustOne said:



			If it shouldn't matter to a better golfer WHY should it matter so much to someone who can barely play the game (so to speak).

Should a 28 h/capper expect to win a comp or should they just worry about their own personal best (as suggested by Farneyman).



I don't really care as I pretty much just golf my own ball and winning comps has never really mattered to me BUT there is a huge air of discontentment in golf (from those who do/have spent a great deal of time/money trying to improve) pertaining to BANDITRY and subsequently the 'banter' which can affect people (see the original post) which CAN be dealt with if the system was to change.
		
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The point is that everyone has paid to join & enter an amateur handicap comp but some golfers want to increase their chances of winning by nobbling others rather than concentrating on their own game


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## Slab (Apr 23, 2015)

An interesting reminder

In particular No's 1, 3 & 7

When reading its useful to remember this: _"A golf handicap allows players of all levels of golfing ability to compete against each other on a fair and equal basis"_


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## Smiffy (Apr 23, 2015)

Slab said:



			When reading its useful to remember this: _"A golf handicap allows players of all levels of golfing ability to compete against each other on a fair and equal basis"_

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You forgot to add _"as long as all golfers are being honest about their ability in relation to their handicap"_


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 23, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			You forgot to add _"as long as all golfers are being honest about their ability in relation to their handicap"_

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Which IMO are the majority of golfers are mate


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## Roops (Apr 23, 2015)

gazr99 said:



			I'm laughing at those saying if you have a high handicap perform well with mates but then rubbish in competitions you must be bandit or can't cope with the pressure of competitions. Last time I checked this was golf and no day is ever the same. I for one play of 20 and I can go from shooting around 40 points one round to 24 the next, competition or no competition. 

I had it before where I had only hit under my handicap twice in a competition then hit my best ever round in one. If we had the ability to control how well we played, we would be professionals.
		
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Precisely, or another way of looking at it, statistically you are only expected to go under your handicap by 3 shots or more around 20 percent of the time. That means if you play a 50 rounds a year, unless you play consistently well, having your good rounds correspond with comps is going to be tricky. Playing more improves your chances, but we don't all have the opportunity to get out more even though I guess we would all like to.

Bitter idiots have all forgotten that at one time or another they have had great scores in a roll-up and flunked the next comp.


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## Foxholer (Apr 23, 2015)

Roops said:



			Precisely, or another way of looking at it, *statistically you are only expected to go under your handicap by 3 shots or more around 20 percent of the time.* That means if you play a 50 rounds a year, unless you play consistently well, having your good rounds correspond with comps is going to be tricky. Playing more improves your chances, but we don't all have the opportunity to get out more even though I guess we would all like to.

Bitter idiots have all forgotten that at one time or another they have had great scores in a roll-up and flunked the next comp.
		
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Pretty sure it's a lot lower percentage than that!

Here's some stats from Dean Knuth (the inventor of 'Slope') http://www.popeofslope.com/sandbagging/odds.html Admittedly from the US system, but should be within ballpark.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 23, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			But according to liverpoolphil scratch comps are elitist and anyone should be able to enter and win,all comps should be catagory comps so everyone has a chance of winning something
		
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Yes - and everyone has the chance to be Club Champion - tough if you are not good enough.


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## garyinderry (Apr 23, 2015)

My views on competition golf starting at 18 handicap for young fit healthy men were based solely on what I deem a pretty decent standard of golf. 

It did not take into consideration the effect changing this would have on club golf.  Many members side-lined from comps. Some never reaching that target etc.

As I said earlier in the thread. I have no problems with handicaps going up if needs be. If that is because of age or through lack of ability. My preferred handicap start for comps would be 18.

I too like the fact I can give some of my new to the game mates a number of shots and have a competitive game with them. Ive given 2shots on every hole to some.  

Max handicap at the minute is 28 for men.  Increasing it further is completely unnecessary.  There is a host of places for people to get their game in shape to play to 28. Hacking it round off 36 from the back sticks which is what people will be doing off 36 will not be helpful for the new player nor will it be fair to the experienced players who have to play comps with them.

I would have no problem playing with 3 beginners any time. I would have a bit of a problem playing a medal round with 3 new players off 36.  Handicap snob?  maybe. I would feel obliged as I do with every playing partner to watch their ball and help them find it. This would be multiple times very hole for each player.   people already constantly moan about long rounds.  Having a large influx of 36 handicap players into a comp situation would IMO grind the whole thing to a halt. 

Some may point to america about their increased handicap and how well it works.  We all know how well they stick to the rules over there.  A mulligan here, a stroke and distance there and its all good.  This doesn't and won't cut it here thankfully.

I think most people will agree that high 20s golf isn't exactly sparkling. Snelly has a more colourful description but I will be more diplomatic.  We have ALL been there. Every single one of us. I believe that competition golf should be a reward for those that move their game to a decent standard. For me that line falls at 18handicap.  One extra shot a hole. I believe all can get to this magic number through application, skill and maybe a little luck. 

Finally I have no problems with people actually playing in the comps to get their handicap down to 18. I just dont think they should be in the prizes.  Remove all monetary prizes.  I would be happy with a handshake and a slap on the back.


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## Snelly (Apr 23, 2015)

Slab said:



			I think that as some of you have improved and progressed you've completely lost sight & understanding of the range of golfers ability

18 handicap is the average for men. Some of you are suggesting that any below average golfer must play comps off the average ability allowance!
		
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This isn't me. I am just recalling what golf was like when I started as 18 was the maximum handicap. And it was fine. 


A related thought I had on this subject was to ask in a similar vein, what do you all think about courses that impose a maximum handicap limit on visitors who are allowed to play the course?   For example, Sunningdale and St Georges Hill state that 20 is the maximum handicap allowed for visitors.   This can be viewed two ways - does it mean only golfers who can play to a certain standard are allowed on the course (if handicap certs are required then clearly yes) or is it to limit the number of strokes that visitors can receive when playing? i.e. You can play the course if you are off 28 but you must play with a handicap of 20?  I am not sure of the answer here but would suspect the goal is the former. I don't know that for a fact though.  

 Is this fair enough or are they totally out of order???


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## Slab (Apr 23, 2015)

Snelly said:



			This isn't me. I am just recalling what golf was like when I started as 18 was the maximum handicap. And it was fine. 


A related thought I had on this subject was to ask in a similar vein, what do you all think about courses that impose a maximum handicap limit on visitors who are allowed to play the course?   For example, Sunningdale and St Georges Hill state that 20 is the maximum handicap allowed for visitors.   This can be viewed two ways - does it mean only golfers who can play to a certain standard are allowed on the course (if handicap certs are required then clearly yes) or is it to limit the number of strokes that visitors can receive when playing? i.e. You can play the course if you are off 28 but you must play with a handicap of 20?  I am not sure of the answer here but would suspect the goal is the former. I don't know that for a fact though.  

 Is this fair enough or are they totally out of order???
		
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Interesting, I've always thought that these limits were derived from the clubs own bad experiences plus a few myths & misconceptions thrown in about ability to look after the course, keeping pace etc etc (and a small element of keeping out rif-raf biannual society crews) and then they come up with an arbitrary number

Its their club so I guess it lets them impose any limit they want & if the members (who may pay higher subs due to lost revenue) wanted to change it I guess they would

The biggest issue I think I'd have if I was one shot over the limit would be that without any course rating & when transferred to their course I may be 3 or 4 under the limit (this also works in reverse with tough courses who may simply be saying up front that if you're a 24 then this place will kill you, avoid us and spend your money somewhere where you'll enjoy it)


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 23, 2015)

I think if a course if prestigious and tough then I have no problem with them asking for players only of a certain h/c. Unfortunately for me that rules me out of those courses mentioned but I understand where they are coming from. I am not a hacker and I play quickly, I am just inconsistent off the tee, but having been stuck behind corporate 4 balls playing 8/9/10 shots on a hole on tough courses then the desire to move golfers along is an understandable one. Advising players that the course is tough and may not be for you is fair enough. Plenty of other places we can go, and no that is not spoken in a bitter way.


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## Snelly (Apr 23, 2015)

Neither Sunningdale or St Georges Hill are particularly tough off the yellows.


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## Smiffy (Apr 23, 2015)

Snelly said:



			Neither Sunningdale or St Georges Hill are particularly tough off the yellows.
		
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I wholeheartedly agree


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## JustOne (Apr 23, 2015)

Snelly said:



			For example, Sunningdale and St Georges Hill state that 20 is the maximum handicap allowed for visitors.
		
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Maybe it speeds up play as they SHOULD be picking up sooner.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 23, 2015)

Snelly said:



			Neither Sunningdale or St Georges Hill are particularly tough off the yellows.
		
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In that case I retract everything, let me on :sbox:


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 23, 2015)

I know this has been touched on in other threads but perhaps clubs need to be more creative regarding tee box positions. Don't restrict who can be on the course but state anyone over a certain h/c must play from a particular tee box, eg whites 0-15, yellows 16-22, reds 23 upwards. You can play on tees forward of your h/c but not backwards. This is for difficult or prestige courses. Let's stop calling the red tees ladies tees and just call them red. This way we all get the fun of the course but we just start from different positions. This would help move everyone along as well as being inclusive.


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## garyinderry (Apr 23, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			The distance ball is a joke prize that no one really wants.   Replace it with zero friction tee if you want. 

Everyone starts out rubbish at this game.  I truly believe people should practice quite a bit until they get to shooting in and around 18 handicap in Stable ford points.   

I believe high handicaps become a noose around people's necks and a kind of self fulfilling prophecy. 

Anyone who thinks I am being elitist can do so. They don't know me and how much I like to help newbies to this game. 

If you have been playing for years and can't shoot near 18 handicap then the stigma of playing off forward tees needs to be removed. They are encouraging this in America.  I think it's a fantastic idea.

Making people shoot in the 100s off the back sticks in comps is just silly.
		
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Already been mooted.  Phil doesn't agree. Post #270


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## Foxholer (Apr 23, 2015)

Snelly said:



			This isn't me. I am just recalling what golf was like when I started as 18 was the maximum handicap. And it was fine. 


A related thought I had on this subject was to ask in a similar vein, what do you all think about courses that impose a maximum handicap limit on visitors who are allowed to play the course?   For example, Sunningdale and St Georges Hill state that 20 is the maximum handicap allowed for visitors.   This can be viewed two ways - does it mean only golfers who can play to a certain standard are allowed on the course (if handicap certs are required then clearly yes) or is it to limit the number of strokes that visitors can receive when playing? i.e. You can play the course if you are off 28 but you must play with a handicap of 20?  I am not sure of the answer here but would suspect the goal is the former. I don't know that for a fact though.  

 Is this fair enough or are they totally out of order???
		
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It's definitely the former - you must be off 20 or less to be allowed on the course. An arbitrary level, set in the hope that pace of play and care of course requirements are met. They believe that by having that restriction, everyone playing on any day should be more likely to enjoy their golf. They couldn't give a monkeys what you decide to play off (or for) in any match!


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 23, 2015)

Liverbirdie said:



			Some people like to put people in boxes.

Not all low handicappers are ultimate competitors, high handicappers are not just there to make up the numbers, and can also be fiercely competitive. Not all high handicappers are slow, some of the low boys take the most time etc.

I didnt play in comps for 15 years, as I wasn't a member of a club, and just played muni golf with mates. I loved it. We were all rubbish to start with, no lessons, pick up balls, second hand clubs etc We just loved playing golf.

Over time I went from hacking around the 9 hole over to the main course (still a muni), carding scores in the 140's, and that's without applying all the rules.

By the time I joined a club I was playing to about 13-15. Its taken me 25 years to get on the cusp of cat 1 (may never achieve it), so I've done all the hard yards in between, and believe me, I'm not a practicer, I just love playing.

I'm now quite competitive, whether playing for a Â£1 or a club major. All the time though, I play with the right attitude and am good company, no matter the result.

However, I still think that some reasonable amount of ability should be achieved before going in comps, or at least separate comps may be the way forward.

I think 27 should be the high end of competitive golf handicaps 1 per hole, and 2 on half the course. Entry to club comps, but maybe a limit of 22 for club majors, or you have to play off 3/4.

If handicaps were given out to men up to 36 (the maximum IMHO), maybe 28-36 h/cappers should only be in their own divisional comp, and should be stableford only

Slow play is a curse of the modern game, and although all abilities can take their time, as I know, people going around in 120 plus in a monthly medal, of the whites in the wind and rain can't be conducive to fun, and the rest of the course should also be taken into account.

Middle ground - or a load of guff, you decide.

I've been both sides of the fence, and although it doesn't make me an expert, can at least see it from both sides.
		
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Well Slab - what of the above, or give us your ideal scenario.

We could argue that you sound bitter the other way, so.......

Handicaps up to 60, or what is your cut off point?

All handicappers can play medal comps, or any restriction on that?

All handicaps can play all tees, even the tips?

Bear in mind that all people's enjoyment and pace of play needs to be respected on the course?


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## Slab (Apr 23, 2015)

Liverbirdie said:



			Well Slab - what of the above, or give us your ideal scenario.

We could argue that you sound bitter the other way, so.......

Handicaps up to 60, or what is your cut off point?

All handicappers can play medal comps, or any restriction on that?

All handicaps can play all tees, even the tips?

Bear in mind that all people's enjoyment and pace of play needs to be respected on the course?
		
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For the most part it was all what happened to you... problem is the handicap system wasn't developed for you it was set up to facilitate this: 
_"A golf handicap allows players of all levels of golfing ability to compete against each other on a fair and equal basis" _

Clearly a limit needs to be set and its currently 28, now I wasn't in the meeting that decided this but I'm pretty certain they'll have considered many aspects before settling on this number and I don't have a desire to change it, happy as it is really. And if you ask me to justify it I'll refer you to the congu site and the various information on there

I think policing/managing it at club level could be improved at some clubs judging by some of the experiences told on here but that doesn't mean change the entire thing because somewhere there's a few bandits and as I said this is a bazooka to kill a spider approach

My 'bitterness' if it is that, is that some want to change it for what appears to be self interest and not for anything as noble as pace or caring for the course 

If we move onto talking about the conditions of entry for any comp then if the comp is for players of an 18 HC and lower then say so on the conditions then everyone knows before they enter, there are already numerous entry criteria competitions around inc scratch only but to apply that maximum to *all* comps is unfair 

Is there to be no amateur competition golf that pits a cat 1 player against a cat 4 on a fair an equal basis 

If you max the handicap at 18 you ruin the only opportunity a cat 4 golfer has to play in a competition against his peers. If narrowing the field with such a restriction is what you want for the game fine I'll never change your mind


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## Slab (Apr 23, 2015)

^^^^
My last paragraph isn't directed at you Liverbirdie more to those that want the 18 limit


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## garyinderry (Apr 23, 2015)

Not all cat 4 golfers will stay cat4.    I dont know the numbers but I would imagine a very large percentage of not most who play golf will at some stage get to 18.   obviously it would need to be adjusted for players who take up the game later in life.

I just do not see the need for people to rush into competitive golf. I did and many others started out playing the game for enjoyment and didn't entertain the idea, nor would I have wanted to until my game was of a decent standard. 

If the handicap limit increases I might tell my da to dust off his old clubs. He might just win that monthly medal after all.


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## adam6177 (Apr 23, 2015)

Isn't the stat something along the lines of only 20% of golfers will ever break 100.....I'd love to know how many golfers do actually have a handicap of 18 or below.


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## Snelly (Apr 23, 2015)

adam6177 said:



			Isn't the stat something along the lines of only 20% of golfers will ever break 100.....I'd love to know how many golfers do actually have a handicap of 18 or below.
		
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Do you think breaking 100 should win a medal then?  A gross 99 nett 71 and you win something?   What's the prize?  Part share in a guide dog?


I am starting to think that there are bitter golfers from all categories.....


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## duncan mackie (Apr 23, 2015)

adam6177 said:



			Isn't the stat something along the lines of only 20% of golfers will ever break 100.....I'd love to know how many golfers do actually have a handicap of 18 or below.
		
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it's miles from the picture presented by garryinderry's imagination!

I don't have the stats; and even if I did there are so many ways of defining this anyway (from % of people who claim to be golfers down to % active club members with CONGU handicaps at any one time) - even the latter fails when you might wish to consider those over 18 now who have been lower at some point.

Taking a quick look on HDID, picked a club at random (starting with M, then scroll down th emiddle and spotted 'Mid Kent' which seemed appropriate. The the actual % of current members with CONGU handicaps of 18.0 or less is.........45%
or put another way, there are more golfers (paying subs to the Union etc) with handicaps above 18 than there are below it (at that club)
obviously clubs will vary but I suspect that this is pretty representative.


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## garyinderry (Apr 23, 2015)

Currently that club has 45% at 18 or below.    How many of the remaining 55% do you think we're at one time or another 18 or below?  

Remember I said I was fine with handicaps going up with age or if lack of ability dictates. 

Elderly golfers will make up  quite a large chunk of that 55%.  My imagination tells me quite a few were able to knock it round quite well when they were younger. 

Also add in junior golfers who haven't matured yet and new to golf golfers.  They will be part of the 55% but a number of them will make it to an 18 handicap.

I've been skiing twice.  It doesn't make a skier. My ma has hit a golf ball in our garden. It doesn't make her a golfer.    I would be shocked if only one in five people who play golf regularly ever break 100.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 23, 2015)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I know this has been touched on in other threads but perhaps clubs need to be more creative regarding tee box positions. Don't restrict who can be on the course but state anyone over a certain h/c must play from a particular tee box, eg whites 0-15, yellows 16-22, reds 23 upwards. You can play on tees forward of your h/c but not backwards. This is for difficult or prestige courses. Let's stop calling the red tees ladies tees and just call them red. This way we all get the fun of the course but we just start from different positions. This would help move everyone along as well as being inclusive.
		
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Phew, have just caught up on this thread!

I like this idea, and not just to make it easier for high handicappers. 

Don't have men's/women's tees, just tees, but have both men's and women's par and SSS from each set of tees. Allow people to play from whichever is most appropriate for their ability and make any necessary handicap adjustments for SSS differences to allow a competition.


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## garyinderry (Apr 23, 2015)

Fully back women being able to compete off comp tees.    many women players up and down the country face a problem of being the only low player at the club. 

I would fully support the idea of allowing them to compete with men off comp tees instead of being resigned to women tees.  Let them use the back tees (notice I didn't use mens tee) and compete with men.

Could even have two handicaps. Full length and women only.


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## upsidedown (Apr 23, 2015)

AS an experiment this year once placing has been lifted all members will be able to play off any tee they desire for social golf :thup:


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 23, 2015)

Slab said:



			For the most part it was all what happened to you... problem is the handicap system wasn't developed for you it was set up to facilitate this: 
_"A golf handicap allows players of all levels of golfing ability to compete against each other on a fair and equal basis" _

Clearly a limit needs to be set and its currently 28, now I wasn't in the meeting that decided this but I'm pretty certain they'll have considered many aspects before settling on this number and I don't have a desire to change it, happy as it is really. And if you ask me to justify it I'll refer you to the congu site and the various information on there

I think policing/managing it at club level could be improved at some clubs judging by some of the experiences told on here but that doesn't mean change the entire thing because somewhere there's a few bandits and as I said this is a bazooka to kill a spider approach

My 'bitterness' if it is that, is that some want to change it for what appears to be self interest and not for anything as noble as pace or caring for the course 

If we move onto talking about the conditions of entry for any comp then if the comp is for players of an 18 HC and lower then say so on the conditions then everyone knows before they enter, there are already numerous entry criteria competitions around inc scratch only but to apply that maximum to *all* comps is unfair 

Is there to be no amateur competition golf that pits a cat 1 player against a cat 4 on a fair an equal basis 

If you max the handicap at 18 you ruin the only opportunity a cat 4 golfer has to play in a competition against his peers. If narrowing the field with such a restriction is what you want for the game fine I'll never change your mind
		
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Now you dont sound bitter.


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## ExRabbit (Apr 24, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			Fully back women being able to compete off comp tees.    many women players up and down the country face a problem of being the only low player at the club. 

I would fully support the idea of allowing them to compete with men off comp tees instead of being resigned to women tees.  Let them use the back tees (notice I didn't use mens tee) and compete with men.

Could even have two handicaps. Full length and women only.
		
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Just read this thread. I'm not replying to the post I quoted, just your volume in this thread.

You come across as a complete asshat.

Just sayin.


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## bluewolf (Apr 24, 2015)

ExRabbit said:



			Just read this thread. I'm not replying to the post I quoted, just your volume in this thread.

You come across as a complete asshat.

Just sayin.
		
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Well, as someone who knows him well enough to actually make that judgement....

You're absolutely wrong..

Just sayin..


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## Slab (Apr 24, 2015)

Liverbirdie said:



			Now you dont sound bitter.

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Not sure why we're having a back & forth, I think we mostly agree

You don't want to see the max handicap go up & neither do I. Ok you want to bring it down a shot to 27 so that its based on a round and a half of golf whereas I want it to remain as it is based on performance & ability, but we're only a shot apart

What you're reading as bitterness is actually disappointment, disappointment that some want to eliminate the cat 4 shot allowance from amateur competition golf. Weirdly their reasoning seems to be to deal with banditry (when most bandits actually play in cat 2&3 except the dumb ones so the problem would continue anyway)

Here's the real irony though, in an effort to deal with the small minority of players playing off an artificially manipulated handicap within cat 4, these 'campaigners' actually want to artificially manipulate their own handicaps relative to every cat4 player in the field. Yup, to prevent banditry among cat 4 players these guys are actually prepared to become bandits themselves! 

Amazing to understand they're happy to increase their own handicap compared to cat 4 players by reducing the cat 4 guy by up to 10 strokes but leaving their own untouched. What a sacrifice! 

I suppose they might say they are fighting the problem from within (& if they should pick up some handicap prizes along the way then these are the spoils of war I guess)


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## Tiger man (Apr 24, 2015)

ExRabbit said:



			Just read this thread. I'm not replying to the post I quoted, just your volume in this thread.

You come across as a complete asshat.

Just sayin.
		
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Presuming asshat is an insult? As I don't really know, how did anything he said come across so negatively? Not read the whole thread as I have missed that much it would take an age but that comment seems very reasonable. Just sayin


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 24, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Well, as someone who knows him well enough to actually make that judgement....

You're absolutely wrong..

Just sayin..
		
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I disagree - this now needs it's own thread.


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 24, 2015)

Slab said:



			Not sure why we're having a back & forth, I think we mostly agree

You don't want to see the max handicap go up & neither do I. Ok you want to bring it down a shot to 27 so that its based on a round and a half of golf whereas I want it to remain as it is based on performance & ability, but we're only a shot apart

What you're reading as bitterness is actually disappointment, disappointment that some want to eliminate the cat 4 shot allowance from amateur competition golf. Weirdly their reasoning seems to be to deal with banditry (when most bandits actually play in cat 2&3 except the dumb ones so the problem would continue anyway)

Here's the real irony though, in an effort to deal with the small minority of players playing off an artificially manipulated handicap within cat 4, these 'campaigners' actually want to artificially manipulate their own handicaps relative to every cat4 player in the field. Yup, to prevent banditry among cat 4 players these guys are actually prepared to become bandits themselves! 

Amazing to understand they're happy to increase their own handicap compared to cat 4 players by reducing the cat 4 guy by up to 10 strokes but leaving their own untouched. What a sacrifice! 

I suppose they might say they are fighting the problem from within (& if they should pick up some handicap prizes along the way then these are the spoils of war I guess) 

Click to expand...

All good points.

I wasn't being sarcastic, actually being complimentary to you.


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## Snelly (Apr 24, 2015)

Asshat?  Anyone saying this sounds to me like the have had an accident in the number 2 toilet department. 

E.g. Asshat myself. Asshat on the carpet.  Asshat in my wife's shoes. 

To combine it with the inanity of "Just saying" speaks volumes. 


Garyinderry - I don't think you are an asshat. Whatever that means.


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## Slab (Apr 24, 2015)

Liverbirdie said:



			All good points.

I wasn't being sarcastic, actually being complimentary to you.

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Sorry total misread on my part :thup:


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Don't have men's/women's tees, just tees, but have both men's and women's par and SSS from each set of tees.
		
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You appear to have a crystal ball.


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## ruff-driver (Apr 24, 2015)

Snelly said:



			Asshat?  Anyone saying this sounds to me like the have had an accident in the number 2 toilet department. 

E.g. Asshat myself. Asshat on the carpet.  Asshat in my wife's shoes. 

To combine it with the inanity of "Just saying" speaks volumes. 


Garyinderry - I don't think you are an asshat. Whatever that means. 

Click to expand...


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## garyinderry (Apr 24, 2015)

I don't think I am an asshat either. 

When I first opened this thread I read the op and thought no that is definitely not me. I encourage new golfers and actively try and help their game although I do tell them that they can ask me to shut up at any time.  I hate seeing people make the same mistakes I did for so long as I didn't have anyone to tell me otherwise. It helps greatly playing with better players.

my views on comp golf have very little if anything to do with banditry. My first post on this thread said I don't think there actually are many 20+ handicap bandits. They usually hang around the low to mid teens.  Bandits are usually quite handy at the game. It's pretty hard to be one if you are not. 

My views fall squarely on rewarding what is is my view a good standard of golf. 

I certainly don't lean towards handing out even bigger handicaps to men than we already do as comp golf then slides towards a school sports day everyone gets a medal mentality.

As I've stated I think every young fit healthy male can make it to 18 if they really want to. The question is, do they want to work for it? 

The current system we have works just fine. It's just not what I would choose.  Snelly says it used to be 18 so there must have been some real asshats around in those days. 

I really hope the limit doesn't go up. It will be a dark day for club golf when someone wins a medal shooting treble figures.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 24, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			You appear to have a crystal ball.
		
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Is that what they're planning? Brilliant!


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## bluewolf (Apr 24, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			I don't think I am an asshat either. 

When I first opened this thread I read the op and thought no that is definitely not me. I encourage new golfers and actively try and help their game although I do tell them that they can ask me to shut up at any time.  I hate seeing people make the same mistakes I did for so long as I didn't have anyone to tell me otherwise. It helps greatly playing with better players.

my views on comp golf have very little if anything to do with banditry. My first post on this thread said I don't think there actually are many 20+ handicap bandits. They usually hang around the low to mid teens.  Bandits are usually quite handy at the game. It's pretty hard to be one if you are not. 

My views fall squarely on rewarding what is is my view a good standard of golf. 

I certainly don't lean towards handing out even bigger handicaps to men than we already do as comp golf then slides towards a school sports day everyone gets a medal mentality.

As I've stated I think every young fit healthy male can make it to 18 if they really want to. The question is, do they want to work for it? 

The current system we have works just fine. It's just not what I would choose.  Snelly says it used to be 18 so there must have been some real asshats around in those days. 

I really hope the limit doesn't go up. It will be a dark day for club golf when someone wins a medal shooting treble figures.
		
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Calm down asshat..........


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Is that what they're planning? Brilliant!
		
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That is being proposed - tees is tees and each will have its own SSS.


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## NWJocko (Apr 24, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			That is being proposed - tees is tees and each will have its own SSS.
		
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Good.

I played with Fairway Dodger at Castle Stuart last year and they had a similar set up, could even use composite tees on different holes etc.

First time I'd ever seen it and thought it was a great idea, especially for a low handicap golfer like FD.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 24, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			That is being proposed - tees is tees and each will have its own SSS.
		
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Different male/female SSS for each?


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## garyinderry (Apr 24, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Calm down asshat.......... 

Click to expand...

Where is that pesky report button :rofl:


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 24, 2015)

NWJocko said:



			Good.

I played with Fairway Dodger at Castle Stuart last year and they had a similar set up, could even use composite tees on different holes etc.

First time I'd ever seen it and thought it was a great idea, especially for a low handicap golfer like FD.
		
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That was good but IIRC they only had a women's SSS from the reds? The course I liked best was the Kings at Gleneagles because they had a women's SSS from their "green" tees. Which meant I could play a longer/more demanding course than the reds but also get a decent idea how I did relative to my handicap.


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## Foxholer (Apr 24, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			That is being proposed - tees is tees and each will have its own SSS.
		
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1 for Men and 1 for Women?


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## NWJocko (Apr 24, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			That was good but IIRC they only had a women's SSS from the reds? The course I liked best was the Kings at Gleneagles because they had a women's SSS from their "green" tees. Which meant I could play a longer/more demanding course than the reds but also get a decent idea how I did relative to my handicap.
		
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Ah, I didn't realise they didn't have an SSS rating, halfway there at least!

Way I played that day they should have had "Jocko" tees 100 yards forward with an SSS of 120 

Still, hot dog at halfway was worth the pain......


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			1 for Men and 1 for Women?
		
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No one SSS I believe as the women's and men's handicap system combined a couple of years ago there will be no need.


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## Slab (Apr 24, 2015)

garyinderry said:



			I don't think I am an asshat either. 

When I first opened this thread I read the op and thought no that is definitely not me. I encourage new golfers and actively try and help their game although I do tell them that they can ask me to shut up at any time.  I hate seeing people make the same mistakes I did for so long as I didn't have anyone to tell me otherwise. It helps greatly playing with better players.

my views on comp golf have very little if anything to do with banditry. My first post on this thread said I don't think there actually are many 20+ handicap bandits. They usually hang around the low to mid teens.  Bandits are usually quite handy at the game. It's pretty hard to be one if you are not. 

My views fall squarely on rewarding what is is my view a good standard of golf. 

I certainly don't lean towards handing out even bigger handicaps to men than we already do as comp golf then slides towards a school sports day everyone gets a medal mentality.

As I've stated I think *every young fit healthy male* can make it to 18 if they really want to. The question is, do they want to work for it? 

The current system we have works just fine. It's just not what I would choose.  Snelly says it used to be 18 so there must have been some real asshats around in those days. 

I really hope the limit doesn't go up. It will be a dark day for club golf when someone wins a medal shooting treble figures.
		
Click to expand...

Despite earlier differences of opinion on this thread I can actually agree with this post. Although I don't see how you would actually implement & manage a handicap system based on age, health & fitness, I just think its unworkable, the variables are just too many and we'd end up with people attending medicals to prove they are/aren't fit or healthy


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## Snelly (Apr 24, 2015)

Slab said:



			Despite earlier differences of opinion on this thread I can actually agree with this post. Although I don't see how you would actually implement & manage a handicap system based on age, health & fitness, I just think its unworkable, the variables are just too many and we'd end up with people attending medicals to prove they are/aren't fit or healthy
		
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You wouldn't do it like that I don't think because two of those variables are easily changed in that anyone can get thinner or fitter if they try.  Just like you can get better at golf with a bit of application and graft.  

Different handicap limits for full members, juniors and seniors (if they were worse than 18 obviously) would be the suggestion I would guess.


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## Slab (Apr 24, 2015)

Snelly said:



			You wouldn't do it like that I don't think because two of those variables are easily changed in that anyone can get thinner or fitter if they try.  Just like you can get better at golf with a bit of application and graft.  

Different handicap limits for full members, juniors and seniors (if they were worse than 18 obviously) would be the suggestion I would guess.
		
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Yeah I guess so but then wouldn't you be making a handicap limit for those aged from 18-30's

I mean a man in his late forties/early fifties is never going to be described as young but he may be 10 or more years from being a senior but he's also perhaps losing 30 years over a healthy & fit 20 year old


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## Snelly (Apr 24, 2015)

Slab said:



			Yeah I guess so but then wouldn't you be making a handicap limit for those aged from 18-30's

I mean a man in his late forties/early fifties is never going to be described as young but he may be 10 or more years from being a senior but he's also perhaps losing 30 years over a healthy & fit 20 year old
		
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I mean a handicap limit for competitions of 18 for full playing members aged 18 to 65 and a higher handicap threshold of 24 if you are younger or older than that.


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## Slab (Apr 24, 2015)

Snelly said:



			I mean a handicap limit for competitions of 18 for full playing members aged 18 to 65 and a higher handicap threshold of 24 if you are younger or older than that.
		
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Sorry I thought we were still referencing Gary's post where it identified young fit and healthy


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 24, 2015)

A slight softening of views by all on here, some good points from both sides.

And then peace reigned over the land of Asshatshire........

Word.:rofl:


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## North Mimms (Apr 24, 2015)

In the US they will often have 5 sets of tees and give a different SSS for men and women for maybe the two or three middle ones , front for women, back for men.
The card would suggest tees for certain hcps but we played from whichever we fancied (or the ones that gave me the most shots off Mr Mimms...)


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## SugarPenguin (Apr 24, 2015)

Sounds like a bad experience. 
I have had things like that before but I just give it back in a 'banter' sort of approach.
Old obnoxious men are the reason us younger golfers get put of and they certainly do not entice children and teens into picking up the game.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 24, 2015)

Snelly said:



			I mean a handicap limit for competitions of 18 for full playing members aged 18 to 65 and a higher handicap threshold of 24 if you are younger or older than that.
		
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It would reduce the numbers playing golf IMO in reality 

Can understand the reasoning but it's not what golf is about IMO 

Level playing field for all is the aim


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## theballboy (Apr 24, 2015)

Played with a good few 'tools' like this. Not fun at all. Get them in all walks of life.


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## GeneralStore (Apr 24, 2015)

"Asshat in my wife's shoes" 

That is just disturbing


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## Smiffy (Apr 24, 2015)

GeneralStore said:



			"Asshat in my wife's shoes" 

That is just disturbing
		
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Very common in West Sussex don't ya know


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## Snelly (Apr 24, 2015)

Smiffy said:



			Very common in West Sussex don't ya know


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I don't think so.  East Sussex?  Absolutely.......


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## richart (Apr 24, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It would reduce the numbers playing golf IMO in reality 

Can understand the reasoning but it's not what golf is about IMO 

Level playing field for all is the aim
		
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Not so sure about that. Competitions are not the be all and end all of golf. Social golf is a major part, and you can have whatever handicaps you like in that. Higher handicaps than 18 can still play competitions. If I only entered to win, I would have been very disappointed over the last 40 years.

Most sports I have played you win things when you get to a decent standard. You practice hard to get better. Golf can sometimes seem to reward the golfer that has either just started, is not very good, or is a bandit.

No man should get more than one shot a hole.:whoo:


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## Slab (Apr 24, 2015)

richart said:



			Not so sure about that. Competitions are not the be all and end all of golf. Social golf is a major part, and you can have whatever handicaps you like in that. Higher handicaps than 18 can still play competitions. If I only entered to win, I would have been very disappointed over the last 40 years.

Most sports I have played you win things when you get to a decent standard. You practice hard to get better. Golf can sometimes seem to reward the golfer that has either just started, is not very good, or is a bandit.

No man should get more than one shot a hole.:whoo:
		
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Lets be honest here, no_* real*_ man should be on an online forum


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2015)

Just increase the number of qualifiers/supplementary cards required to maintain a comp handicap to 6 perhaps. That way those mid handicappers who normally moan about bandits could perhaps end up with a proper handicap and higher handicaps will go up further or the good ones will come down.

More 18+ handicappers belong to golf and play in comps pay affiliation fees and support the counties and England Golf.

Counties and EG should have more completions for these players instead off - none as they would get balloted out if they entered and clubs just need to think how they could have comps that include the higher handicapper but not to the detriment of others.

There are many reasons why people need a high handicap. People go on about improving but there are many players who just want to rock up a couple of times a month, play a comp or social game and then disappear. They my not have either the time or finances to be able to improve.

In a recent survey done with submitted Q info the average scratch player will play around 7 shots above their handicap and it was a lot higher the further up the handicaps you go.


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## richart (Apr 24, 2015)

Slab said:



			Lets be honest here, no_* real*_ man should be on an online forum 

Click to expand...

 I can only get on here in my lunch hour, as I have lessons in the afternoon. Now where is my satchel ?


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## alexbrownmp (Apr 24, 2015)

richart said:



			I can only get on here in my lunch hour, as I have lessons in the afternoon. Now where is my satchel ?
		
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an adult friend has one of these, until I called it a homo-satchel.


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## Smiffy (Apr 24, 2015)

richart said:



			I can only get on here in my lunch hour, as I have clients in the afternoon. Now where is my handbagl ?
		
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Something you're forgetting to tell us?


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## delc (Apr 24, 2015)

richart said:



			Not so sure about that. Competitions are not the be all and end all of golf. Social golf is a major part, and you can have whatever handicaps you like in that. Higher handicaps than 18 can still play competitions. If I only entered to win, I would have been very disappointed over the last 40 years.

Most sports I have played you win things when you get to a decent standard. You practice hard to get better. Golf can sometimes seem to reward the golfer that has either just started, is not very good, or is a bandit.

No man should get more than one shot a hole.:whoo:
		
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I agree up to a point. Consider a keen young male beginner who joins a golf club. He puts in his 3 cards, all with scores over 100, so is given a 28 handicap. He takes a few lessons and practices a bit, and in no time is playing to about 10 handicap standard. Will his handicap now reflect this? Of course it won't for quite a while, while it grinds down through the GONGU system, so he will win almost every comp in sight until it catches up with his improved form.  He will probably think that winning golf competitions is pretty easy until it does and then realise it is quite difficult once you have a representative handicap.  In England there is now an Exceptional Scores Reduction (ESR) factor in place to cater for this, but I believe it hasn't been adopted in the 'home of golf'. Is this still the case?


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## Slab (Apr 24, 2015)

delc said:



			I agree up to a point. Consider a keen young male beginner who joins a golf club. He puts in his 3 cards, all with scores over 100, so is given a 28 handicap. He takes a few lessons and practices a bit, and in no time is playing to about 10 handicap standard. Will his handicap now reflect this? Of course it won't for quite a while, while it grinds down through the GONGU system, so he will win almost every comp in sight until it catches up with his improved form.  He will probably think that winning golf competitions is pretty easy until it does and then realise it is quite difficult once you have a representative handicap.  In England there is now an Exceptional Scores Reduction (ESR) factor in place to cater for this, but I believe it hasn't been adopted in the 'home of golf'. Is this still the case?
		
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Haha where is this mythical chap, dropping 18 shots with a few lessons and a bit of practice, once in a blue moon if ever I suspect

While I'm sure its just an example I think it does a disservice to the guys who have spent many many hours to get down to a 10 level


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## delc (Apr 24, 2015)

Slab said:



			Haha where is this mythical chap, dropping 18 shots with a few lessons and a bit of practice, once in a blue moon if ever I suspect

While I'm sure its just an example I think it does a disservice to the guys who have spent many many hours to get down to a 10 level
		
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I used to be a member of a club attached to a pay and play course with a driving range and good teaching facilities. Rapid improvement was quite common with new members, and they tended to dominate the competitions there. Probably less of an issue for private members clubs, whose new members have probably played somewhere else (such as my former club) and have reached a certain standard already.

P.S. Even an old whatsit like me has been down to a 10 handicap in recent times!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 24, 2015)

delc said:



			I agree up to a point. Consider a keen young male beginner who joins a golf club. He puts in his 3 cards, all with scores over 100, so is given a 28 handicap. He takes a few lessons and practices a bit, and in no time is playing to about 10 handicap standard. Will his handicap now reflect this? Of course it won't for quite a while, while it grinds down through the GONGU system, so he will win almost every comp in sight until it catches up with his improved form.  He will probably think that winning golf competitions is pretty easy until it does and then realise it is quite difficult once you have a representative handicap.  In England there is now an Exceptional Scores Reduction (ESR) factor in place to cater for this, but I believe it hasn't been adopted in the 'home of golf'. Is this still the case?
		
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How many people start at 28 and then play to 10 in no time at all ?! It very very rare IMO 

In fact earlier in the thread you suggested that continually at your club those sort were winning the comps - I asked if that was factually correct - do you have the answer ? ( your results on HDID seem to suggest you are wrong )


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## delc (Apr 24, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many people start at 28 and then play to 10 in no time at all ?! It very very rare IMO 

In fact earlier in the thread you suggested that continually at your club those sort were winning the comps - I asked if that was factually correct - do you have the answer ? ( your results on HDID seem to suggest you are wrong )
		
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See my reply in #427 in this thread!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 24, 2015)

delc said:



			See my reply in #427 in this thread!
		
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Doesn't answer any question 

You said "continually" beaten by improving golfers yet your results at your club don't suggest that 

You have mentioned one win from one golfer which doesn't back up your initial statements

Maybe it's not common at all and you are embellishing things quite considerably


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## delc (Apr 24, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Doesn't answer any question 

You said "continually" beaten by improving golfers yet your results at your club don't suggest that 

You have mentioned one win from one golfer which doesn't back up your initial statements

Maybe it's not common at all and you are embellishing things quite considerably
		
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Why are you called 'Liverpoolphil' if you live in Leighton Buzzard? :mmm:


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 24, 2015)

delc said:



			Why are you called 'Liverpoolphil' if you live in Leighton Buzzard? :mmm:
		
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What does that have to do with anything Delc ?

Can you explain why you keep suggesting the "improving newcomers" keep winning comps yet the facts don't back that up


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## Captainron (Apr 24, 2015)

delc said:



			Why are you called 'Liverpoolphil' if you live in Leighton Buzzard? :mmm:
		
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He once went to the Open at Hoylake and likes the Harry Enfield sketches.....

Stop being a chop!


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 24, 2015)

delc said:



			Why are you called 'Liverpoolphil' if you live in Leighton Buzzard? :mmm:
		
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<HughMcilvanney>
They called him the "Lawman". Because his name was "Law" and he was a man.......
</HughMcilvanney>


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## delc (Apr 24, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What does that have to do with anything Delc ?

Can you explain why you keep suggesting the "improving newcomers" keep winning comps yet the facts don't back that up
		
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I've done it myself. At my former club I once scored 87 playing off 28 for a nett 59, and at my present club a gross 79 (46 points in a Stableford) playing off 17. None of the established players got anywhere near me on either occasion!


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2015)

delc said:



			I've done it myself. At my former club I once scored 87 playing off 28 for a nett 59, and at my present club a gross 79 (46 points in a Stableford) playing off 17. None of the established players got anywhere near me on either occasion!  

Click to expand...

For your second score you obviously we're not a newcomer to golf.


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## delc (Apr 24, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			For your second score you obviously we're not a newcomer to golf.
		
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No, but on both occasions I was improving rapidly, which is where the handicapping system breaks down.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 24, 2015)

delc said:



			I've done it myself. At my former club I once scored 87 playing off 28 for a nett 59, and at my present club a gross 79 (46 points in a Stableford) playing off 17. None of the established players got anywhere near me on either occasion!  

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So it's one off rarities then as opposed to "common" or "continually" as you keep suggesting


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2015)

delc said:



			No, but on both occasions I was improving rapidly, which is where the handicapping system breaks down.
		
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ESR now looks after this. Rapidly improvers are usually juniors and have to be monitored closely but I doubt if they would be welcome in comps judging by some remarks on here.


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## NWJocko (Apr 24, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			ESR now looks after this. Rapidly improvers are usually juniors and have to be monitored closely but I doubt if they would be welcome in comps judging by some remarks on here.
		
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Indeed.

Seems some folk have an almost expectation about winning comps here. Every week I'm playing against 150 odd other golfers so the odds on me winning are low!! Hence why all I'm bothered about is me and my score.

I'm sure Del was furious with himself when he scored 46 points..........


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## delc (Apr 24, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			ESR now looks after this. Rapidly improvers are usually juniors and have to be monitored closely but I doubt if they would be welcome in comps judging by some remarks on here.
		
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Have Scotland adopted ESR's yet?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 24, 2015)

delc said:



			Have Scotland adopted ESR's yet?
		
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I'm guessing you have checked your clubs comps results to check the winners to see how many are improving newcomers ?


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 24, 2015)

delc said:



			Have Scotland adopted ESR's yet?
		
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Nope, all our cuts are hard earned!


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2015)

delc said:



			Have Scotland adopted ESR's yet?
		
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As you can tell from recent events, we have no control over what goes on in Scotland


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 24, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Nope, all our cuts are hard earned! 

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Ouch that's a juicy carrot for someone to nibble on


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 24, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Ouch that's a juicy carrot for someone to nibble on
		
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## delc (Apr 24, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Nope, all our cuts are hard earned! 

Click to expand...

As they only seem to run comps for 6 months of the year up in Scotland, that leaves plenty of time for players to practice and improve during the Winter months. I would think that they need ESR's more than we do!


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## Liverbirdie (Apr 24, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Nope, all our cuts are hard earned! 

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Miiiiaaaaooowwwww:thup::rofl:


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 24, 2015)

Liverbirdie said:



			Miiiiaaaaooowwwww:thup::rofl:
		
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I am bitter indeed!


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## North Mimms (Apr 24, 2015)

delc said:



			Have Scotland adopted ESR's yet?
		
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Have you adopted ESRs yet, having avoided one a few years ago?


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## delc (Apr 24, 2015)

North Mimms said:



			Have you adopted ESRs yet, having avoided one a few years ago?
		
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At the time ESRs were optional and at the discretion of the handicap secretary/committee, who decided not to apply it. Otherwise I would have been down to 9 and would have fulfilled one of my ambitions of getting down to single figures again. However I rather doubt that I could have played to anything like that, as my subsequent performances have proved! Believe that ESRs are now compulsory in England and Wales.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 24, 2015)

delc said:



			At the time it was optional and at the discretion of the handicap secretary/committee, who decided not to apply it. Otherwise I would have been down to 9 and would have fulfilled one of my ambitions of getting down to single figures again. However I rather doubt that I could have played to anything like that, as my subsequent performances have proved! Believe that ESRs are now compulsory in England and Wales.
		
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It still is at the discretion of the HC sec but as before it's highly recommended to apply the ESR


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2015)

delc said:



			At the time ESRs were optional and at the discretion of the handicap secretary/committee, who decided not to apply it. Otherwise I would have been down to 9 and would have fulfilled one of my ambitions of getting down to single figures again. However I rather doubt that I could have played to anything like that, as my subsequent performances have proved! Believe that ESRs are now compulsory in England and Wales.
		
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They are not compulsory and it sounds like you have an unscrupulous committee. You weren't in the club 1st team was you. Although ESRs are not compulsory EG and CONGU asked all clubs to implement all ESRs.


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## delc (Apr 24, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			They are not compulsory and it sounds like you have an unscrupulous committee. You weren't in the club 1st team was you. Although ESRs are not compulsory EG and CONGU asked all clubs to implement all ESRs.
		
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So almost now compulsory then!


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2015)

delc said:



			So almost now compulsory then! 

Click to expand...

Unfortunately they still haven't removed the button that gives a choice.


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## North Mimms (Apr 24, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			They are not compulsory and it sounds like you have an unscrupulous committee. You weren't in the club 1st team was you. Although ESRs are not compulsory EG and CONGU asked all clubs to implement all ESRs.
		
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I used to be at the same club as delc.
I was flagged up for an ESR around about the same time as him and begged for it to be applied as I thought it would be an incentive for me.

My handicap has done nothing but rise ever since!


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2015)

North Mimms said:



			I used to be at the same club as delc.
I was flagged up for an ESR around about the same time as him and begged for it to be applied as I thought it would be an incentive for me.

My handicap has done nothing but rise ever since!
		
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Did they give a reason, were you a member of the clubs team. Care to name the club.


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## delc (Apr 24, 2015)

North Mimms said:



			I used to be at the same club as delc.
I was flagged up for an ESR around about the same time as him and begged for it to be applied as I thought it would be an incentive for me.

My handicap has done nothing but rise ever since!
		
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Where are you playing now Mrs M?


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## North Mimms (Apr 24, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			Did they give a reason, were you a member of the clubs team. Care to name the club.
		
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The ESR was applied to me, but I don't like your inference.
 Maybe my fault for not making it clear


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## North Mimms (Apr 24, 2015)

delc said:



			Where are you playing now Mrs M?
		
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Outside the M25!


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## Farneyman (Apr 24, 2015)

delc said:



			As they only seem to run comps for 6 months of the year up in Scotland, that leaves plenty of time for players to practice and improve during the Winter months. I would think that they need ESR's more than we do!
		
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Minimum 2 medals every month over Nov, Dec, Jan, Feb and hunners more a month in the longer days. 99%  strokeplay too.


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## delc (Apr 24, 2015)

North Mimms said:



			Outside the M25!
		
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How far outside the M25?


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## Old Skier (Apr 25, 2015)

North Mimms said:



			The ESR was applied to me, but I don't like your inference.
 Maybe my fault for not making it clear
		
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Not inferring anything so apologise if you thought I was.


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## Fish (Apr 25, 2015)

Asshat :rofl:

I wonder if he got tugged for that, if not, I think I might borrow it :smirk:

More importantly, do you need to start carry this :mmm:


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