# Patrick Reed



## Parsaregood (Dec 6, 2019)

Patrick caught clearly improving his lie in a waste area twice before taking his stroke. Guy just cant help himself can he


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 6, 2019)

What did he do ? Seen a few mention it but not what he actually did


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## fundy (Dec 6, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What did he do ? Seen a few mention it but not what he actually did
		
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pretending to practise his back swing whilst clearly taking a load of sand away and improving his lie

https://t.co/xy0SeY5RKa


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## Imurg (Dec 6, 2019)

Oooh....
Could be interesting...


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## Parsaregood (Dec 6, 2019)

Think there was a thread on here before regarding 'allegations' during his college days. Cant say I've ever had much respect for him and I'm struggling to see how this can be a genuine error hes made here


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## williamalex1 (Dec 6, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Think there was a thread on here before regarding 'allegations' during his college days. Cant say I've ever had much respect for him and I'm struggling to see how this can be a genuine error hes made here
		
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Do you know who the Alligators were , I'll get my coat, see you later alligator


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## User20204 (Dec 6, 2019)

Has he been called on it ? Cause I see he's a couple over.


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## Parsaregood (Dec 6, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Has he been called on it ? Cause I see he's a couple over.
		
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Not yet, they will deal with it when he finishes


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## sunshine (Dec 6, 2019)

Blatant!


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## fundy (Dec 6, 2019)

hes got some front now calling in the ref to ask if he can tighten the screw on his driver head lol


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## Dan2501 (Dec 6, 2019)

Colour me shocked. So blatant, and someone who has been accused of cheating in the past. Glad this one was caught on camera, no doubt now.

Also:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1203055210714845186


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 6, 2019)

No doubt he'll come up with an excuse. Will the PGA have the balls to do anything anyway?


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## fundy (Dec 6, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			No doubt he'll come up with an excuse. Will the PGA have the balls to do anything anyway?
		
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there will be a riot if he isnt penalised 2 shots, plenty would like the treatment to be harsher!


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## fundy (Dec 6, 2019)

2 shot penalty been applied


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## User20204 (Dec 6, 2019)

Has he lost his mind, how can he possibly ever think he'd get away with that, bonkers.


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## Pin-seeker (Dec 6, 2019)

Blimey maybe this was just a genuine mistake & we should give him the benefit of the doubt 🤷‍♂️


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## Parsaregood (Dec 6, 2019)

Pin-seeker said:



			Blimey maybe this was just a genuine mistake & we should give him the benefit of the doubt 🤷‍♂️
		
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😂😂😂 theres no way he did not know what he was doing here, its absolutely blatant. Any club golfers know you cannot do this never mind a tour pro


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## williamalex1 (Dec 6, 2019)

fundy said:



			there will be a riot if he isnt penalised 2 shots, plenty would like the treatment to be harsher!
		
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He moved/touched the sand twice  so give him 2 x 2 penalties = 4 shots, cheeky bugger and a good slap to boot somewhere it hurts


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## Wildrover (Dec 6, 2019)

Just to play devil's advocate for a minute, maybe it is a genuine mistake as he knew there was a camera right behind him that would pick anything inappropriate up.


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## Lilyhawk (Dec 6, 2019)

Wildrover said:



			Just to play devil's advocate for a minute, maybe it is a genuine mistake as he knew there was a camera right behind him that would pick anything inappropriate up.
		
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Erm, no.


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## tugglesf239 (Dec 6, 2019)

He is bang to rights there.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 6, 2019)

Ouch - that is incredibly stupid!


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## williamalex1 (Dec 7, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Ouch - that is incredibly stupid!
		
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Or premeditated cheating


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## Imurg (Dec 7, 2019)

Trying to work out why he didn't see it ( unless he did and ignored it)
The only thing I can come up with is that when taking the backswings he was checking his alignment or arm angles and not looking down. I've only seen clips of the club head so I can't tell.
The sand is pretty fine and he, possibly, didn't feel the club head move it if he was focussed on something else but it's a hell on a long shot......
It's hard to see how he didn't know he'd done it, there is a very slim chance he didn't know but an awful lot of planets have to align before anyone believes that.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 7, 2019)

I had a lot of time for him before this, but now......I think he's gonna have to save a lot of puppies and kittens before he is considered anything more than just another spoilt cheat for me.
He knew what he was doing, and if he was taking practice swings why wouldnt you take them so your club is in no way close to or in line with the ball?


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## Hobbit (Dec 7, 2019)

Surely after the first practice swing he realised the sand looked like it had been disturbed? And if not then, after he did it the second time?

Cheat.


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## Wabinez (Dec 7, 2019)

not the first time he has done it either


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1203042241897541632


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## ger147 (Dec 7, 2019)

He has already said he knew what he was doing but that he didn't believe it was a penalty as his club was far enough away from his ball, he did not improve his lie and the single camera angle shown is deceptive.

So it wasn't an accident and he wasn't unaware what he was doing.

For me, it's deliberate cheating...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...nded-two-stroke-penalty-for-improving-his-lie


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## Lump (Dec 7, 2019)




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## Dan2501 (Dec 7, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Trying to work out why he didn't see it ( unless he did and ignored it)
The only thing I can come up with is that when taking the backswings he was checking his alignment or arm angles and *not looking down*. I've only seen clips of the club head so I can't tell.
The sand is pretty fine and he, possibly, didn't feel the club head move it if he was focussed on something else but it's a hell on a long shot......
It's hard to see how he didn't know he'd done it, there is a very slim chance he didn't know but an awful lot of planets have to align before anyone believes that.
		
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He was staring down at the ball the whole time, watching it intently. He knew what he was doing.


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## pokerjoke (Dec 7, 2019)

After watching it several times there’s no doubt he knew what he was doing.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 7, 2019)

Bit silly, he should have gone to another area that was similar and had those little practice swings. Which he would be entitled to do in waste area. 
But if he really wanted to improve his lie, legally, his back swing could have been deeper and then he would have to get on plane to go through the ball. But he is tour pro that lie is scary for an amateur but should be bread and butter to him. 
I would have just walked up and topped it as hard as I could


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## User20204 (Dec 7, 2019)

It seems very fashionable to hate Patrick Reed but I'm not one of those however that is very hard to defend.


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## Piece (Dec 7, 2019)

He absolutely knew what he was doing.


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## hovis (Dec 7, 2019)

blimey, why?  sergio dislodged a piece of pine straw and it caused bedlam.  how did he think building a sand castle was going to go unnoticed?


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## User20204 (Dec 7, 2019)

Just seen it from another angle, the camera does make his scoop look closer than it is, still at it back it's not as close as it first seems.


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## howbow88 (Dec 7, 2019)

I'm always one for giving the benefit of the doubt, and I even quite like Reed's panto villain ways, but this was very naughty. I wonder how the other tour players will feel about all of this?


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## harpo_72 (Dec 7, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Just seen it from another angle, the camera does make his scoop look closer than it is, still at it back it's not as close as it first seems.
		
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That does need to be shown .. as it gives it context.
But and I don’t have any opinions on Patrick Reed, he should have been a bit more shrewd and played within the opportunities of the rules


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## User20204 (Dec 7, 2019)

I'm going to put it out there that there isn't a single person who plays the game at some point hasn't improved their lie. 

If you say you have never done so, ever, I'm calling you a lier.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 7, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I'm going to put it out there that there isn't a single person who plays the game at some point hasn't improved their lie.

If you say you have never done so, ever, I'm calling you a lier.
		
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Anyone who addresses the ball and doesn’t do it lightly (god knows how you define that!) is probably guilty.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 7, 2019)

Improved his lie - punished with a penalty 

If there is a side on angle will be interesting to see but I don’t see pros deliberatly cheating etc because they know how many cameras are on them 

Only he will know his intentions everything else is a guess


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## pendodave (Dec 7, 2019)

howbow88 said:



			I wonder how the other tour players will feel about all of this?
		
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Remember Tiger with his scoop at the same event last year.
Remember kuchar everywhere
Remember all of those dodgy 'last crossed the hazard' calls
Remember the backstopping that happens every week (as long as it's your mates)
Remember that a significant number of drivers tested the other week were illegal.
I'm guessing that a decent number of them are just relieved it wasn't them that was caught.


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## Parsaregood (Dec 7, 2019)

Clearly improving his lie to quite an extent, he does it twice both from different angles removing  sand directly behind the ball allowing for both a clearer backswing path and also to get underneath the ball with less resistance. It's quite extraordinary when he says he isn't aware this is breaking any rules, it's a deliberate and an exact act. In my view deserves closer scrutiny and more punishment than a 2 shot penalty. Its undefendable in my opinion.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 7, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			Clearly improving his lie to quite an extent, he does it twice both from different angles removing  sand directly behind the ball allowing for both a clearer backswing path and also to get underneath the ball with less resistance. It's quite extraordinary when he says he isn't aware this is breaking any rules, it's a deliberate and an exact act. In my view deserves closer scrutiny and more punishment than a 2 shot penalty. Its undefendable in my opinion.
		
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The 2 shot penalty is within the games rules and should be applied. 
However the professional game on occasions have other rules and perhaps this is a bit harsh but the positional purse should be forfeited and given to charity.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 7, 2019)

Glad to see he got punished but how dd he think it was right or he'd get away with it. I had a very low opinion of him anyway and this has reinforced that view. I simply can't think how he thought it could possibly be legal


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## IainP (Dec 7, 2019)

Looks like he will finish 2 off the lead.


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## duncan mackie (Dec 7, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			Anyone who addresses the ball and doesn’t do it lightly (god knows how you define that!) is probably guilty.
		
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It has been defined under the rules for a long time - you are permitted to ground the club and bring it's weight to bear. You are not permitted to apply additional force  to press it down.

This is why you will see most people (who know the rules) make a point of placing the club head with their hands almost open, then firm up their grip whilst retaining its position.

Obviously in this situation the player is accused of improving their lie by moving material they aren't permitted to move at that position on the course...


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## harpo_72 (Dec 7, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			It has been defined under the rules for a long time - you are permitted to ground the club and bring it's weight to bear. You are not permitted to apply additional force  to press it down.

This is why you will see most people (who know the rules) make a point of placing the club head with their hands almost open, then firm up their grip whilst retaining its position.

Obviously in this situation the player is accused of improving their lie by moving material they aren't permitted to move at that position on the course...
		
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This is how I address, although I don’t think the club even applies it’s own weight. Although I have seen stuff and thought that is very close and on the tv as well


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 8, 2019)

There are some great quotes coming through from pros, all universally seeing it for what it is. When he takes the club back first time he can see the sand had been smoothed out, then he does it again 😱. Unless  he was blindfolded it is inconceivable to think he was unaware.


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## chellie (Dec 8, 2019)

What's the difference to what he did and someone spending longer than three minutes looking for their ball, finding it after three minutes and then continuing playing with it.


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## Canary_Yellow (Dec 8, 2019)

Funny thing is, I thought he was just stupid rather than cheating, until his post round comments! Now I’m sure he cheated.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 8, 2019)

chellie said:



			What's the difference to what he did and someone spending longer than three minutes looking for their ball, finding it after three minutes and then continuing playing with it.
		
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If the person is aware that they spent longer than 3 minutes then absolutely nothing. If you knowingly break a rule you are in the same boat.


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## Imurg (Dec 8, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If the person is aware that they spent longer than 3 minutes then absolutely nothing. If you knowingly break a rule you are in the same boat.
		
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Picking up on this..
He said that he thought he was far enough away from the ball so that what he was doing wasn't improving his lie....
So, if he's accepted the penalty but was convinced that what he was doing didn't contravene a rule....is he still cheating?
Not coming down on his side at all..just looking for reasons..


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## rulefan (Dec 8, 2019)

harpo_72 said:



			However the professional game on occasions have other rules .
		
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What other rules do the pros have?


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 8, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Picking up on this..
He said that he thought he was far enough away from the ball so that what he was doing wasn't improving his lie....
So, if he's accepted the penalty but was convinced that what he was doing didn't contravene a rule....is he still cheating?
Not coming down on his side at all..just looking for reasons..
		
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It then comes down to whether you believe that is a feasible excuse. At the moment pretty much the only person who has played golf that buys into that is a Mr P.Reed. 

This is very reminiscent of the Lexi Thompson one for me. The player can make excuses but when you see it you can't help but go 'whooaa'.


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## robinthehood (Dec 8, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It then comes down to whether you believe that is a feasible excuse. At the moment pretty much the only person who has played golf that buys into that is a Mr P.Reed.

This is very reminiscent of the Lexi Thompson one for me. The player can make excuses but when you see it you can't help but go 'whooaa'.
		
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Yeah,  i agree , we can only take his word I guess but it doesn't look good.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 8, 2019)

rulefan said:



			What other rules do the pros have?
		
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Line of site for a start!


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## Jacko_G (Dec 8, 2019)

There seems to be a bigger uproar over Reed than Tiger's illegal drop at the 2013 Masters. Both received 2 shot penalties.

Both knew what they were doing or did both make honest mistakes, we'll never know.


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## robinthehood (Dec 8, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Line of site for a start!
		
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Not really,  only for certain  things like grandstands.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 8, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			There seems to be a bigger uproar over Reed than Tiger's illegal drop at the 2013 Masters. Both received 2 shot penalties.

Both knew what they were doing or did both make honest mistakes, we'll never know.
		
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Didn’t Woods admit that he was taking the wrong drop ? Or something along those lines , in essence it shoold have a been a DQ for him but the “Masters Committee” just gave him the shot penalty


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## woofers (Dec 8, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Line of site for a start!
		
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Everyone can have line of sight if it’s set out as a local rule. See model local rule F23 under Committee Procedures, Abnormal Course Conditions and Integral Objects


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## Jacko_G (Dec 8, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Not really,  only for certain  things like grandstands.
		
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So when a tour professional is in the woods claiming they are going to play a 30 yard "fade" round the TV tower that they have no chance of pulling off it's "not really" a fair advantage, rule "bend"???


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## Jacko_G (Dec 8, 2019)

woofers said:



			Everyone can have line of sight if it’s set out as a local rule. See model local rule F23 under Committee Procedures, Abnormal Course Conditions and Integral Objects
		
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How many line of site rules have you ever seen/heard of on your travels and how many TV towers, stands etc are on your course?


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## woofers (Dec 8, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			How many line of site rules have you ever seen/heard of on your travels and how many TV towers, stands etc are on your course?
		
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You’re being silly. The original point was that Pros have rules that don’t apply to amateur golfers, I was merely pointing out that the Rules of Golf accommodate Line of Sight Relief should a Committee feel the need to implement them.
And I did ask about this with a top tournament official at Wentworth who referred me to my rule book.


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## robinthehood (Dec 8, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			So when a tour professional is in the woods claiming they are going to play a 30 yard "fade" round the TV tower that they have no chance of pulling off it's "not really" a fair advantage, rule "bend"???
		
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I don't understand your point,  something is either on your line or it isn't. The rule itself is just a local rule that can be used at any level. Maybe if in future they televise my monthly medal I'll get to experience it.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 8, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I don't understand your point,  something is either on your line or it isn't. The rule itself is just a local rule that can be used at any level. Maybe if in future they televise my monthly medal I'll get to experience it.
		
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It's a local rule that club golfers will never experience, I suggest that is what the original comment was "aimed" at.

However it's in the interpretation.


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## robinthehood (Dec 8, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			It's a local rule that club golfers will never experience, I suggest that is what the original comment was "aimed" at.

However it's in the interpretation.
		
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So they are the same rules then. 😂


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## Jacko_G (Dec 8, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			So they are the same rules then. 😂
		
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You interpret, I interpret. End of.


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## duncan mackie (Dec 8, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			It's a local rule that club golfers will never experience, I suggest that is what the original comment was "aimed" at.

However it's in the interpretation.
		
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No interpretation. 

As someone's post it's either line of sight or it isn't in the case of a TIO - no relief for something that might be in the way of the shot the player claims, or chooses, to play that doesn't meet the line of sight requirements.

'Club golfers' rarely experience this because any obstructions that meet the TIO definitions are usually moveable. The relief situation is slightly complicated so most club committees avoid their implementation.


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## duncan mackie (Dec 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Didn’t Woods admit that he was taking the wrong drop ? Or something along those lines , in essence it shoold have a been a DQ for him but the “Masters Committee” just gave him the shot penalty
		
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One day this will get quoted correctly 🤔

Woods took relief under one rule and played out the hole.
The committee considered his action and ruled that where he had dropped was within an acceptable tolerance (close enough) for a different rule....
When Woods stated the rule he had proceeded under at the post round press conference the committee had a huge problem - so they contacted the R&A for a ruling (effectively overnight) who ruled that the committee were in error for ruling on an assumption without having discussed the situation with the player before he returned his card. Because they had ruled that he hadn't gained an advantage they couldn't change that even when the player stated that he had dropped there to gain an advantage (in his eyes within the rule he though he was proceeding under - back on line, when he was actually proceeding under playing from the previous stroke position, then went further...).
So he was penalised 2 strokes for the technical side of his breach, and the world's conspiracy theorists had a field day (appreciate you aren't one).


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## Norrin Radd (Dec 8, 2019)

As to the pros playing to different rules ,what about pick and place ,the pros get a club length ,we get about six inches .I have never been allowed a club length when it's been pick and place unlike the pros in tournaments I've seen on TV


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## woofers (Dec 8, 2019)

Norrin Radd said:



			As to the pros playing to different rules ,what about pick and place ,the pros get a club length ,we get about six inches .I have never been allowed a club length when it's been pick and place unlike the pros in tournaments I've seen on TV
		
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Again nothing special for the Pro’s, have a look at model local rule E3 in the rule book. It can be a scorecard, 6 inches, a club length.....it will be down to your Committee to determine.


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## Grant85 (Dec 9, 2019)

Personally think Reed got off lightly.

Rules have been softened in recent years, stemming from Tiger not getting DQd at the Masters for taking a dodgy drop.

In years passed I reckon they would have let Reed finish his round, sign his card. Then he'd have been DQd for signing for a wrong score.
Obviously with TV coverage being so prevalent, they have amended things slightly and they now advise the player on course, or prior to signing his card.

Perhaps there will be a tournament rule or some kind of committee discretion whereby they could have DQd him. But I think, again stemming from Tiger at the Masters, they always want to be on the side of letting people stay in the event as it might be Reed this week, but next week it could be Tiger or Rory etc.

I'm sure they are pretty glad he didn't win, but did get a few ranking points, not to mention the cash.


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## garyinderry (Dec 9, 2019)




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## Swango1980 (Dec 9, 2019)

Norrin Radd said:



			As to the pros playing to different rules ,what about pick and place ,the pros get a club length ,we get about six inches .I have never been allowed a club length when it's been pick and place unlike the pros in tournaments I've seen on TV
		
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As woofers pointed out, this is not a special rule for the pros, your Club Committee can also permit a preferred lie within a club length (our club used to).

However, the main reason why this is not allowed, is the condition set within CONGU that, if you are to play a qualifier then preferred lies must be taken within 6 inches, not a club length. So, it is not a Rules of Golf issue, but a handicapping issue. Obviously the professionals are not exactly bothered about playing for their handicap.


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2019)

The few (3) times I've seen Preferred Lies at Pro tournaments, it's always been applied as 'within scorecard'.


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## duncan mackie (Dec 9, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Personally think Reed got off lightly.

Rules have been softened in recent years, stemming from Tiger not getting DQd at the Masters for taking a dodgy drop.

In years passed I reckon they would have let Reed finish his round, sign his card. Then he'd have been DQd for signing for a wrong score.
Obviously with TV coverage being so prevalent, they have amended things slightly and they now advise the player on course, or prior to signing his card.

Perhaps there will be a tournament rule or some kind of committee discretion whereby they could have DQd him. But I think, again stemming from Tiger at the Masters, they always want to be on the side of letting people stay in the event as it might be Reed this week, but next week it could be Tiger or Rory etc.

I'm sure they are pretty glad he didn't win, but did get a few ranking points, not to mention the cash.
		
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I think you need to appreciate 3.3.b (3) a little more.
It applies to the club golfer as much as the professional tournaments and is a very common sense rule.

In simple terms if you know, or could have known, that you returned an incorrect score on a hole you get DQ - if you don't/can't the score gets corrected. Most consider this sensible.

Tiger's situation is explained fully on an earlier post in this thread. Not relevant here.

The crux of this particular incident is whether PR sort to gain an advantage knowing he was breaching a rule (and subsequently neither raising uncertainty with the committee nor including a penalty that followed from his known actions) or that he honestly believed that his known (seemingly accepted) actions were not a breach of the rules (because the action was away from his line of play).

The committee seem to have ruled that it wasn't far enough away (so he gets a penalty) but that this was an error of judgement  (and that he could have reasonably believed that he hadn't breach the rules and incurred a penalty through his actions). That is their decision to make - however surprisingly the outcome.

I do agree with the perspective that the incident doesn't seem to reflect well on either player or committee.


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## rulefan (Dec 9, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			How many line of site rules have you ever seen/heard of on your travels and how many TV towers, stands etc are on your course?
		
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I have played Hoylake and Birkdale just after Opens have finished. The stands and some TV towers were still in place.
Further, I used the LR (after advice from the R&A) whilst some construction work was being done at my course. I have also seen similar situations at courses where I have been officiating.


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## rulefan (Dec 9, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Didn’t Woods admit that he was taking the wrong drop ? Or something along those lines , in essence it shoold have a been a DQ for him but the “Masters Committee” just gave him the shot penalty
		
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Because the Committee had originally given him a wrong ruling.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 9, 2019)

Loving the Trump-excuse being used by some.  If you do something illegal, blatantly and completely in public view (sometimes more than once) then - so the Trump-excuse goes - you can't possibly know that what you are doing is illegal


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## Grant85 (Dec 9, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			I think you need to appreciate 3.3.b (3) a little more.
It applies to the club golfer as much as the professional tournaments and is a very common sense rule.

In simple terms if you know, or could have known, that you returned an incorrect score on a hole you get DQ - if you don't/can't the score gets corrected. Most consider this sensible.

Tiger's situation is explained fully on an earlier post in this thread. Not relevant here.

The crux of this particular incident is whether PR sort to gain an advantage knowing he was breaching a rule (and subsequently neither raising uncertainty with the committee nor including a penalty that followed from his known actions) or that he honestly believed that his known (seemingly accepted) actions were not a breach of the rules (because the action was away from his line of play).

The committee seem to have ruled that it wasn't far enough away (so he gets a penalty) but that this was an error of judgement  (and that he could have reasonably believed that he hadn't breach the rules and incurred a penalty through his actions). That is their decision to make - however surprisingly the outcome.

I do agree with the perspective that the incident doesn't seem to reflect well on either player or committee.
		
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My understanding with the Tiger situation was that he signed for an incorrect score and should have been DQd, given the rules at the time. Indeed, I think we can assume that most other golfers would have been. But they bent over backwards to find a way / loophole etc. to allow him to continue.

My understanding since then is that rules have also been amended to take into account an honest mistake, or things that are picked up on TV coverage after the round, in order for a more common sense / lenient approach to signing for an incorrect score.

In Patrick's case, the penalty was assessed during play and he knew he was adding 2 shots on by the time he finished his round. Had the circumstances been different, for example, and he wasn't playing during live coverage, or he was in a bigger field and not in the lead at the time, I think we might be able to guess that this may not have been spotted. And if it was the kind of thing that was spotted later in the day, or the following day, then the rules would now allow for him to be assessed the penalty and continue in the event (with tournament committee approval).

As I said, there still appears to be a malicious element to Reed's actions that feel like a bigger crime than we often see in golf, where people are usually not aware they've grounded a club or moved a ball or taken an incorrect drop etc. I guess similar to Phil at the 2018 US Open where he was surely expecting to be DQd and in fact even offered to withdraw.


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## sunshine (Dec 9, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			My understanding with the Tiger situation was that he signed for an incorrect score and should have been DQd, given the rules at the time. Indeed, I think we can assume that most other golfers would have been. But they bent over backwards to find a way / loophole etc. to allow him to continue.
		
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Your understanding is incorrect. See earlier posts for the explanation.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 9, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			My understanding with the Tiger situation was that he signed for an incorrect score and should have been DQd, given the rules at the time. Indeed, I think we can assume that most other golfers would have been. But they bent over backwards to find a way / loophole etc. to allow him to continue.

My understanding since then is that rules have also been amended to take into account an honest mistake, or things that are picked up on TV coverage after the round, in order for a more common sense / lenient approach to signing for an incorrect score.

In Patrick's case, the penalty was assessed during play and he knew he was adding 2 shots on by the time he finished his round. Had the circumstances been different, for example,* and he wasn't playing during live coverage, or he was in a bigger field and not in the lead at the time,* I think we might be able to guess that this may not have been spotted. And if it was the kind of thing that was spotted later in the day, or the following day, then the rules would now allow for him to be assessed the penalty and continue in the event (with tournament committee approval).

As I said, there still appears to be a malicious element to Reed's actions that feel like a bigger crime than we often see in golf, where people are usually not aware they've grounded a club or moved a ball or taken an incorrect drop etc. I guess similar to Phil at the 2018 US Open where he was surely expecting to be DQd and in fact even offered to withdraw.
		
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It does make you wonder, how often has he got away with something in the past when it hasn't been broadcast live. Because, unless you are leading, most players (unless you are called Tiger Woods) get very little coverage on TV. Even if you are in contention, during the first round or two, when the leaderboard is very volatile and scores are close, someone like Patrick Reed may not get a whole lot of coverage on TV.

Question: Had it happened in the Ryder Cup, and his opponent hadn't seen it (naturally), I assume the referees / Committee would tell him ASAP once it had been flagged on TV?


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## Curls (Dec 9, 2019)

garyinderry said:









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Exactly the same thing.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 9, 2019)

There are a heck of a lot of cheat rumours about Player. 

His caddy is suspected of dropping another ball at the 74 (I think) Open Championship.


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## robinthehood (Dec 9, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			There are a heck of a lot of cheat rumours about Player.

His caddy is suspected of dropping another ball at the 74 (I think) Open Championship.
		
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We're seeing entire nations banned from sport for state sponsored cheating. It's goes without saying there are and have been many cheats in golf at all levels. 
Simply cannot be any other way.


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			We're seeing entire nations banned from sport for state sponsored cheating. It's goes without saying there are and have been many cheats in golf at all levels.
Simply cannot be any other way.
		
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There is a naivety in how people within golf believe it is pure white. It just does not stack up. It is a long way better than most sports but to think nothing ever happens is not credible.


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## Grant85 (Dec 9, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There is a naivety in how people within golf believe it is pure white. It just does not stack up. It is a long way better than most sports but to think nothing ever happens is not credible.
		
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Yes - if you think of most other sports, a referee or umpire makes the decisions. And it is deemed acceptable to try and claim for certain decisions or to influence the referee in some way. 

In golf, this is not really the case. Albeit we see a lot of instances of free relief given due to the number of paths, sprinklers, aerials, stands etc. and there are plenty of occasions where players use this to their advantage, despite having played a bad shot. I agree that there has probably been a fair amount of cheating over the years but it is the fact that golfers don't really have a referee to appeal to that it is thought of as a more honourable sport. 

I wasn't aware of 'the incident' but I think it's very unlikely something like that would happen these days. Officials would not agree to stand down and most players are too aware of their own image to make such a request... albeit I think the likes of Kuchar and Reed seem not to care about their own image.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 9, 2019)

This is my take on this.
Reed looked at his lie and thought” I have no chance of keeping that on the green.” 
So move a little sand in increments gives me a chance of at least Fringe.
That’s what he got ..

I have always wondered how good these pros would be out of the bunkers I played on the local munis.
Now I know, it’s like a professional foul in football we all know it’s wrong
But Reed should have been DQd imo for deliberate cheating.


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## cliveb (Dec 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I have always wondered how good these pros would be out of the bunkers I played on the local munis.
		
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That's a remark I hear a lot. I've been guilty of saying it myself. We all envy the fact that the pros seem to only ever play on manicured courses with perfectly raked bunkers containing nice fluffy sand.

But to be realistic, I would lay money on a tour pro knowing exactly what to do if he found himself in a footprint in one of my course's horrible hard packed bunkers.
But I'd also lay money on him no longer preferring to be in there than the rough!


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## duncan mackie (Dec 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			This is my take on this.
Reed looked at his lie and thought” I have no chance of keeping that on the green.”
So move a little sand in increments gives me a chance of at least Fringe.
That’s what he got ..

I have always wondered how good these pros would be out of the bunkers I played on the local munis.
Now I know, it’s like a professional foul in football we all know it’s wrong
But Reed should have been DQd imo for deliberate cheating.
		
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The tour pros are in a different league with regard to ball striking  - and will handle most such situations without any issues.

It's nothing like a professional foul in football, nothing. The primary referee in golf is the player themselves.

You cannot accidentally cheat at golf, so the reference to deliberate is unnecessary.

If he was cheating he should be sanctioned by the tour(s). If he broke a rule that carried a penalty of DQ he should be DQ'd.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 9, 2019)

cliveb said:



			That's a remark I hear a lot. I've been guilty of saying it myself. We all envy the fact that the pros seem to only ever play on manicured courses with perfectly raked bunkers containing nice fluffy sand.

But to be realistic, I would lay money on a tour pro knowing exactly what to do if he found himself in a footprint in one of my course's horrible hard packed bunkers.
But I'd also lay money on him no longer preferring to be in there than the rough!
		
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I'm pretty sure that, in comparison to us, the pro's would be a million times better out of our club bunkers. Even in a footprint, they'd have a pretty good idea technically on what type of shot needs to be played and being able to execute it (albeit, it will still be very difficult for them to get close to the pin like they would out of a normal lie). Don't let Patrick Reed's cheating fool you. In general, I'd expect him to get a lot closer to the pin out of his original lie than I would from a great lie. He was just trying to improve his own chances by cheating (allegedly).

I've never seen the pro's live. But my mates went to The Open many years ago. Garcia hit his drive quite close to them, but he was in high, thick, messy rough. He still had 200 yards or more to the green. When he approached them, he jokingly asked them "what club from here" and then he showed them he was using a 6 iron. He then launched it onto the green, from a position where they said they'd struggle to advance it 30-40 yards out of the rough, or avoid pulling it way left (and one of the guys plays off 6).

So, I'd expect that most of us would be in awe of what the professionals are capable of from all sorts of different lies (and assuming they are not cheating). The major thing that DOES work in their favour in comparison to us, is that the courses are more open so that spectators can get around, so less chance of losing a ball (and also more people to look for their ball when they are off line). At my course, if they missed a fairway it is in the jungle, so either an automatic lost ball or literally no chance to play a shot due to having no stance whatsoever. So, to be really safe they'd probably have to take no more than a mid to longish iron of most tees. Even so, I still reckon they could quite easily go round in the low 60's (par 70) on a decent day.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 9, 2019)

cliveb said:



			That's a remark I hear a lot. I've been guilty of saying it myself. We all envy the fact that the pros seem to only ever play on manicured courses with perfectly raked bunkers containing nice fluffy sand.

But to be realistic, I would lay money on a tour pro knowing exactly what to do if he found himself in a footprint in one of my course's horrible hard packed bunkers.
But I'd also lay money on him no longer preferring to be in there than the rough!
		
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He would know what to do ,but he would not be playing a lovely splash to 6”.
That’s my point ,Reed knew he had no chance so made his odds better by cheating.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 9, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			The tour pros are in a different league with regard to ball striking  - and will handle most such situations without any issues.

It's nothing like a professional foul in football, nothing. The primary referee in golf is the player themselves.

You cannot accidentally cheat at golf, so the reference to deliberate is unnecessary.
R
If he was cheating he should be sanctioned by the tour(s). If he broke a rule that carried a penalty of DQ he should be DQ'd.
		
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Well I think he was and should have been DQd.
The only person who is 100% sure is Reed!.

My reference to professional foul is he knew he had no chance and gambled there were no cameras on a waste area.
But if he did get caught it’s only a two shot penalty, that’s lenient for me.
But that’s just my opinion.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 9, 2019)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm pretty sure that, in comparison to us, the pro's would be a million times better out of our club bunkers. Even in a footprint, they'd have a pretty good idea technically on what type of shot needs to be played and being able to execute it (albeit, it will still be very difficult for them to get close to the pin like they would out of a normal lie). Don't let Patrick Reed's cheating fool you. In general, I'd expect him to get a lot closer to the pin out of his original lie than I would from a great lie. He was just trying to improve his own chances by cheating (allegedly).

I've never seen the pro's live. But my mates went to The Open many years ago. Garcia hit his drive quite close to them, but he was in high, thick, messy rough. He still had 200 yards or more to the green. When he approached them, he jokingly asked them "what club from here" and then he showed them he was using a 6 iron. He then launched it onto the green, from a position where they said they'd struggle to advance it 30-40 yards out of the rough, or avoid pulling it way left (and one of the guys plays off 6).

So, I'd expect that most of us would be in awe of what the professionals are capable of from all sorts of different lies (and assuming they are not cheating). The major thing that DOES work in their favour in comparison to us, is that the courses are more open so that spectators can get around, so less chance of losing a ball (and also more people to look for their ball when they are off line). At my course, if they missed a fairway it is in the jungle, so either an automatic lost ball or literally no chance to play a shot due to having no stance whatsoever. So, to be really safe they'd probably have to take no more than a mid to longish iron of most tees. Even so, I still reckon they could quite easily go round in the low 60's (par 70) on a decent day.
		
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I have played with many pros some tour pros .
I know what they are capable of ,but when is the last time you saw a pro golfer with a lie like that in a bunker.
I have seen Sergio go ape because “There’s to much sand in these bunkers” many times ,one this year I think.

Don’t let the fact they are good cloud the fact everyone hits bad shots even the pros.
But if I had perfect bunkers I would be quite decent myself.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I have played with many pros some tour pros .
I know what they are capable of ,but when is the last time you saw a pro golfer with a lie like that in a bunker.
I have seen Sergio go ape because “There’s to much sand in these bunkers” many times ,one this year I think.

Don’t let the fact they are good cloud the fact everyone hits bad shots even the pros.
But if I had perfect bunkers I would be quite decent myself.
		
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I agree, but this wasn't my point. It's all relative to a player, so of course the worse the lie is, the harder the shot is and more chance of hitting a bad shot. For everyone.

My point was that, the pros (in general) would still be much much better than most of us at playing a shot out of a sandy footprint. So, if they were to play at our home clubs and get the same sort of lies as us, I wouldn't expect this to significant reduce their scoring in comparison to playing their perfectly maintained courses, unless they start actually losing golf balls. In fact, they'd probably score much better at a lot of our club courses given the yardages are often significantly shorter and they'd be capable of getting themselves within "scoring" range of the green much more frequently.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 9, 2019)

Swango1980 said:



			I agree, but this wasn't my point. It's all relative to a player, so of course the worse the lie is, the harder the shot is and more chance of hitting a bad shot. For everyone.

My point was that, the pros (in general) would still be much much better than most of us at playing a shot out of a sandy footprint. So, if they were to play at our home clubs and get the same sort of lies as us, I wouldn't expect this to significant reduce their scoring in comparison to playing their perfectly maintained courses, unless they start actually losing golf balls. In fact, they'd probably score much better at a lot of our club courses given the yardages are often significantly shorter and they'd be capable of getting themselves within "scoring" range of the green much more frequently.
		
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I agree with you but Reeds lie was shocking !! but much better when he removed the sand behind the ball.
That gave him a reasonable chance of playing a decent shot.
You could be sent to Coventry if you did that at a golf club .
Once is accidental but twice ???


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## Swango1980 (Dec 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I agree with you but Reeds lie was shocking !! but much better when he removed the sand behind the ball.
That gave him a reasonable chance of playing a decent shot.
You could be sent to Coventry if you did that at a golf club .
Once is accidental but twice ???
		
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100%. Yes, going back to the original thread, as I've said before in my opinion he cheated. And, he was trying to gain a significant advantage. Not condoning him in any way, and had he played from the original lie I have no doubt he'd pretty much have to accept he was going to struggle not to lose at least one shot in comparison to playing from a decent lie. My last comments were solely based on the previous comment made by someone that "what if the pro's had to put up with the lies we get at our less than perfectly presented courses?", to which I was saying that I reckon they'd still be pretty damn impressive all the same (i.e. they wouldn't start getting themselves into as much a mess that a lot of us do when we find ourselves in very bad positions / lies). As for Patrick Reed, he would definitely do well playing at our courses. With no camera's following him, he'd probably do as he pleases. In fact, he probably wouldn't be bothered if anyone caught him red handed.


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## patricks148 (Dec 9, 2019)

TBH it could have been much worse he could have been caught practicing on the course


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## duncan mackie (Dec 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Well I think he was and should have been DQd.
The only person who is 100% sure is Reed!.

My reference to professional foul is he knew he had no chance and gambled there were no cameras on a waste area.
But if he did get caught it’s only a two shot penalty, that’s lenient for me.
		
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I appreciate I'm repeating myself but if you are going to cheat at golf there's no point in playing - it's up to the player to include a penalty that they know they have incurred, and nothing to do with being caught.

All of which is why DQ is not the proper sanction for such an action - suspension or banning would be.


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## sunshine (Dec 9, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			TBH it could have been much worse he could have been caught practicing on the course

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Or changing his shoes in the car park
Or wearing black socks  Instant DQ


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## User20204 (Dec 9, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			There is a naivety in how people within golf believe it is pure white. It just does not stack up. It is a long way better than most sports but to think nothing ever happens is not credible.
		
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You just need to spend 5 minutes reading this very forum. I've never come across so many whiter than white golfers in my life than on here. The very second anyone makes a reference to something that might be very very slightest transgression of the rules of golf, almost everyone to man on here is calling them a cheat.

There isn't a single person on this forum that hasn't incorrectly replaced their ball on the green, not a single one, cheat I say, everyone of you is a cheat 




duncan mackie said:



			I appreciate I'm repeating myself but if you are going to cheat at golf there's no point in playing .
		
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Look at that, right on que.


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## sunshine (Dec 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			This is my take on this.
Reed looked at his lie and thought” I have no chance of keeping that on the green.”
So move a little sand in increments gives me a chance of at least Fringe.
That’s what he got ..

I have always wondered how good these pros would be out of the bunkers I played on the local munis.
Now I know, it’s like a professional foul in football we all know it’s wrong
But Reed should have been DQd imo for deliberate cheating.
		
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What is the difference between deliberate cheating and any other type of cheating? Surely all cheating is deliberate?


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## Swango1980 (Dec 9, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			You just need to spend 5 minutes reading this very forum. I've never come across so many whiter than white golfers in my life than on here. The very second anyone makes a reference to something that might be very very slightest transgression of the rules of golf, almost everyone to man on here is calling them a cheat.

There isn't a single person on this forum that hasn't incorrectly replaced their ball on the green, not a single one, cheat I say, everyone of you is a cheat 




Look at that, right on que.
		
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Define incorrectly replace their ball on the green? I'm pretty sure I haven't, and I'd like to think the majority of people I've played with, or in this forum, haven't either.

Are you saying most people in here have DELIBERATELY done something that they have known to be against the rules, and therefore cheated?


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## duncan mackie (Dec 9, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			There isn't a single person on this forum that hasn't incorrectly replaced their ball on the green, not a single one, cheat I say, everyone of you is a cheat
		
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That statement simply shows that you have no idea how the rules of golf work.

It might have been a pathetic attempt at humour, or simple ignorance. Only you know that.


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## robinthehood (Dec 9, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			You just need to spend 5 minutes reading this very forum. I've never come across so many whiter than white golfers in my life than on here. The very second anyone makes a reference to something that might be very very slightest transgression of the rules of golf, almost everyone to man on here is calling them a cheat.

There isn't a single person on this forum that hasn't incorrectly replaced their ball on the green, not a single one, cheat I say, everyone of you is a cheat 




Look at that, right on que.
		
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I certainly knowingly break any number of rules. 
But I certainly don't cheat either.


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## Foxholer (Dec 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I certainly knowingly break any number of rules.
But I certainly don't cheat either.
		
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That's alright then.

Oh and to reply to HH1...I certainly deny your allegation(s)!

As for Reed's misdemeanour...I'm prepared to give him the benefit of doubt (again). I'm certain he knew cameras would have been on him, so no escape from at least penalty. But the instances of 'I didn't realise' are stacking up fairly rapidly!

FWIW, I'm no fan - except of his ability at golf!


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## User20204 (Dec 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I certainly knowingly break any number of rules.
But I certainly don't cheat either.
		
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And isn't that the point I'm making. 

If you knowingly break a number of rules by definition you're cheating. Now going back to the replacing of the ball on the green remark I made, I absolutely do not believe a single person on here or anywhere else if they tell me that on every single occasion they have replaced the ball in exactly the correct spot every time.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 9, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			And isn't that the point I'm making.

If you knowingly break a number of rules by definition you're cheating. Now going back to the replacing of the ball on the green remark I made, I absolutely do not believe a single person on here or anywhere else if they tell me that on every single occasion they have replaced the ball in exactly the correct spot every time.
		
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Ok, where do YOU replace the ball when you deliberately don't place the ball on the same spot? You are basically saying that everyone in here deliberately cheats, which is an absurd statement in which you have no evidence.


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## User20204 (Dec 9, 2019)

Swango1980 said:



			Ok, where do YOU replace the ball when you deliberately don't place the ball on the same spot? You are basically saying that everyone in here deliberately cheats, which is an absurd statement in which you have no evidence.
		
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I am saying that there isn't a single person who has played the game that has exactly replaced their marker on every single occasion. In regards evidence,  of course I don't have evidence because I haven't witnessed every single person replacing their ball on every occasion however, if you are trying to tell me you have done so on every single occasion then I'm calling YOU out on that and saying I don't believe YOU.


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## robinthehood (Dec 9, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			And isn't that the point I'm making.

If you knowingly break a number of rules by definition you're cheating. Now going back to the replacing of the ball on the green remark I made, I absolutely do not believe a single person on here or anywhere else if they tell me that on every single occasion they have replaced the ball in exactly the correct spot every time.
		
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I don't get your point.  For example I hit an excellent chip to 6 inches last week. Only a bounce game so I gave myself the tap in and picked up.  Rule broken but, you'd be hard pressed to find any one calling that cheating. 
as for ball marking,  if I put a marker down then that's where my ball goes back to.


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## User20204 (Dec 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I don't get your point.  For example I hit an excellent chip to 6 inches last week. Only a bounce game so I gave myself the tap in and picked up.  Rule broken but, you'd be hard pressed to find any one calling that cheating.
as for ball marking,  if I put a marker down then that's where my ball goes back to.
		
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Of course in a bounce game you're not breaking the rules and not a cheat but my point is simple, I don't believe that when replacing ones marker that on every single occasion (while in a Q or MP game) they have replaced it knowingly and exactly in the correct spot. 

To simplify, I'm 100% certain that on the very odd occasion ones ball has come to rest and a slight imperfection immediately in front of or directly in the line of, one has taken their ball and done "a Lexi" EVERYONE.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 9, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I am saying that there isn't a single person who has played the game that has exactly replaced their marker on every single occasion. In regards evidence,  of course I don't have evidence because I haven't witnessed every single person replacing their ball on every occasion however, if you are trying to tell me you have done so on every single occasion then I'm calling YOU out on that and saying I don't believe YOU.
		
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Your point makes absolutely no sense. I place my ball exactly as I'm supposed to under the rules. I've never placed it anywhere else. Are you saying YOU do place it somewhere else on occasion, that would go against the rules?


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## User20204 (Dec 9, 2019)

Swango1980 said:



			Your point makes absolutely no sense. I place my ball exactly as I'm supposed to under the rules. I've never placed it anywhere else. Are you saying YOU do place it somewhere else on occasion, that would go against the rules?
		
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I don't believe you and yes I have.

You see, I have no problem sticking my hand in the air but I do find it funny that you and I guess many others blatantly refuse to admit so. 

Also, I refuse to believe anyone or here or anywhere else has not knowingly and some point or other broke the rules, again, I call you all out as liars.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 9, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I don't believe you and yes I have.

You see, I have no problem sticking my hand in the air but I do find it funny that you and I guess many others blatantly refuse to admit so.

Also, I refuse to believe anyone or here or anywhere else has not knowingly and some point or other broke the rules, again, I call you all out as liars.
		
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I think your comments say more about you and less about others on this forum. I hope so anyway.


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## User20204 (Dec 9, 2019)

Swango1980 said:



			I think your comments say more about you and less about others on this forum. I hope so anyway.
		
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Let me ask you a question, have you ever knowingly broke a rule of golf and NOT called yourself on it ?


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## Swango1980 (Dec 9, 2019)

Never in my life. I even knocked a leaf of a very bushy tree once in my practice swing on 3rd hole, and gave myself a penalty. Turns out I didn't have to, as there were thousands of leaves and I hadn't improved the path of my swing. But, I called the penalty as I felt that was the correct ruling at the time.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 9, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I don't believe you and yes I have.

You see, I have no problem sticking my hand in the air but I do find it funny that you and I guess many others blatantly refuse to admit so.

Also, I refuse to believe anyone or here or anywhere else has not knowingly and some point or other broke the rules, again, I call you all out as liars.
		
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I'm with you. a) Can't believe the other poster has NEVER broken a rule and knew all of them and how to apply them from the moment he stepped onto a course and yes I agree that the majority on here whether they own up or not online haven't replaced the ball perfectly 100% of the time


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## User20204 (Dec 9, 2019)

Swango1980 said:



			Never in my life. I even knocked a leaf of a very bushy tree once in my practice swing on 3rd hole, and gave myself a penalty. Turns out I didn't have to, as there were thousands of leaves and I hadn't improved the path of my swing. But, I called the penalty as I felt that was the correct ruling at the time.
		
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So in your golfing time you have never touched the sand with your club in a bunker outwith the playing of your shot, that no one else has witnessed, you have never improved your lie in the rough/long grass that no one would ever see, even f you did and nor have you incorrectly replaced your ball on the putting green, is that what you are telling me ? 

Cause if you are telling me you have never done any of the above or if you have, you've called yourself out on it, then you sir are lying and you know you are.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 9, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			So in your golfing time you have never touched the sand with your club in a bunker outwith the playing of your shot, that no one else has witnessed, you have never improved your lie in the rough/long grass that no one would ever see, even f you did and nor have you incorrectly replaced your ball on the putting green, is that what you are telling me ?

Cause if you are telling me you have never done any of the above or if you have, you've called yourself out on it, then you sir are lying and you know you are.
		
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Yes, that is correct. Never done those things. That would be cheating


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## Swango1980 (Dec 9, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I'm with you. a) Can't believe the other poster has NEVER broken a rule and knew all of them and how to apply them from the moment he stepped onto a course and yes I agree that the majority on here whether they own up or not online haven't replaced the ball perfectly 100% of the time
		
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That's irrelevant. The accusation was that everyone on here has deliberately broken a rule, NOT accidentally broke a rule because they were unaware of it.


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## User20204 (Dec 9, 2019)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, that is correct. Never done those things. That would be cheating
		
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OK you win, I still don't believe you but there is no point in continuing the discussion.


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## RangeMonkey (Dec 9, 2019)

I can settle this I think.

The assertion was that there is not one forum member who has never replaced a ball incorrectly on a green.

Well, here I am.

I am a forum member, and I guarantee that I have never incorrectly replaced a ball on a green.

Because I have never replaced a ball on a green.

So the statement was false.

To be clear, I’ve only played 9 holes in my life, only holed out on 6 of those, and in those six holes, never had need to mark my ball.


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## Parsaregood (Dec 9, 2019)

I'm comfortable in saying I play by the rules the best I can to the best of my knowledge of them. I like to think I can replace my ball fairly consistently in front of my marker. I really dont get people who would move it now anyway given you can tap down spike marks anyway and also my view is that if I put a good enough stroke on it, it will go in. I'd rather be comfortable in the knowledge I have played the game as it's supposed to be played, your only cheating yourself if you dont mark your ball correctly or build a stance etc. I've absolutely no time for cheats, I caught one a few years ago and put a letter in against them. Needless to say they were banned from holding a handicap for a year. Good riddance.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 9, 2019)

I think the problem is more a moral one.
But imo a two shot penalty for a professional golfer for this is not enough.
This could stop someone getting in the Ryder cup, The open or any qualifying comp because Reed finished in front of them in that tournament.
But it seems the rules are there to be abused for a two shot penalty.


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## User20204 (Dec 9, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			I'm comfortable in saying I play by the rules the best I can to the best of my knowledge of them. I like to think I can replace my ball fairly consistently in front of my marker. I really dont get people who would move it now anyway given you can tap down spike marks anyway and also my view is that if I put a good enough stroke on it, it will go in. I'd rather be comfortable in the knowledge I have played the game as it's supposed to be played, your only cheating yourself if you dont mark your ball correctly or build a stance etc. I've absolutely no time for cheats, I caught one a few years ago and put a letter in against them. Needless to say they were banned from holding a handicap for a year. Good riddance.
		
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So you have also never improved your lie in heavy rough or even semi rough for that matter, ever, nor have you ever inadvertently touched the sand with your club, ever ? 

What's the chances eh ???

I'm sure this comes across as I'm an out and out cheat and do so at every opportunity, I don't really care what everyone thinks, I just know in my length of time playing the game, everyone I've regularly played with, has done so at some stage or other and NOT called themselves out on it, yet everyone on here is the opposite, again, what's the chances.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 9, 2019)

Swango1980 said:



			That's irrelevant. The accusation was that everyone on here has deliberately broken a rule, NOT accidentally broke a rule because they were unaware of it.
		
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But a broken rule is a broken rule whether by intent or mistake. What's that old saying, ignorance is no defence? Whichever way you break a rule, by definition it is cheating. Are you now saying you've never even broken a rule even in ignorance? Don't believe that for a moment as we all do it as part of our golfing learning process


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## Swango1980 (Dec 9, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			But a broken rule is a broken rule whether by intent or mistake. What's that old saying, ignorance is no defence? Whichever way you break a rule, by definition it is cheating. Are you now saying you've never even broken a rule even in ignorance? Don't believe that for a moment as we all do it as part of our golfing learning process
		
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How can you call a penalty on yourself for a rule you are unaware you have broken???? Think about what you are saying.


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## Backache (Dec 9, 2019)

Swango1980 said:



			Never in my life. I even knocked a leaf of a very bushy tree once in my practice swing on 3rd hole, and gave myself a penalty. Turns out I didn't have to, as there were thousands of leaves and I hadn't improved the path of my swing. But, I called the penalty as I felt that was the correct ruling at the time.
		
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Trying to build a handicap.
Cheating is another word for it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 9, 2019)

In post #104 - you are pretty sure you didn't make a mistake placing ("Define incorrectly replace their ball on the green? I'm pretty sure I haven't") and by post 113 you have definitely always placed it correctly ("I place my ball exactly as I'm supposed to under the rules. I've never placed it anywhere else") so already there is a difference between pretty sure and never have. 

Also if you are unaware you have broken a rule does that mean its ok and you shouldn't call a penalty. I am pretty sure there must have been examples even in the pro game when they have done something incorrectly and broken or misinterpreted a rule that has been pulled up later and penalised. If you are playing a monthly medal and you break a rule and you say to your PP "sorry mate, didn't know I couldn't do that" does it make it right? Still have to call penalty. Ignorance is no defence as I've said and so even as a beginner I'll ask again are you sure you never broke the rules


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## chrisd (Dec 9, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			But a broken rule is a broken rule whether by intent or mistake. What's that old saying, ignorance is no defence? Whichever way you break a rule, by definition it is cheating. Are you now saying you've never even broken a rule even in ignorance? Don't believe that for a moment as we all do it as part of our golfing learning process
		
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Nobody knows all the rules and if I broke one I didn't know I'd be very angry if you called me a cheat. I do however believe that to play competitive golf a player should know most if the most common rules that are broken


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## Imurg (Dec 9, 2019)

If you're the only person who's seen this "penalty" bit you don't know that's it a penalty...

How the hell do you call a penalty on yourself?
We play a different game to the Pros
They have cameras and spectators and refs watching..
We have ourselves...


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## User20204 (Dec 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Nobody knows all the rules and if I broke one I didn't know I'd be very angry if you called me a cheat. I do however believe that to play competitive golf a player should know most if the most common rules that are broken
		
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I would suggest that the most common well known rule that is broken, week in, week out is improving your lie, be it on the green, bunker or the rough, yet no one on here but me has done so, what are the chances ?


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## Swango1980 (Dec 9, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			In post #104 - you are pretty sure you didn't make a mistake placing ("Define incorrectly replace their ball on the green? I'm pretty sure I haven't") and by post 113 you have definitely always placed it correctly ("I place my ball exactly as I'm supposed to under the rules. I've never placed it anywhere else") so already there is a difference between pretty sure and never have.

Also if you are unaware you have broken a rule does that mean its ok and you shouldn't call a penalty. I am pretty sure there must have been examples even in the pro game when they have done something incorrectly and broken or misinterpreted a rule that has been pulled up later and penalised. If you are playing a monthly medal and you break a rule and you say to your PP "sorry mate, didn't know I couldn't do that" does it make it right? Still have to call penalty. Ignorance is no defence as I've said and so even as a beginner I'll ask again are you sure you never broke the rules
		
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You cannot call a penalty on yourself if you are unaware, simple. If someone then tells you that you have broken a rule, then at that point you become aware. So, whatever penalty applies should then be implemented. At no point have I ever said that a golfer can say "I didn't know I was breaking a rule, so I shouldn't get a penalty now that I have found out I had broken it"

You have basically agreed a side of an argument, but you've not understood the context of it. The argument was clear, that everyone on this forum DELIBERATELY broke rules from time to time without penalty. I argued that to say I did not believe that to he the case, and I certainly haven't. When I said "I'm pretty sure I haven't", I didn't literally mean that I might have and wasnt sure, I was saying it casually as I thought it was a pretty obvious point to make.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 9, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Nobody knows all the rules and if I broke one I didn't know I'd be very angry if you called me a cheat. I do however believe that to play competitive golf a player should know most if the most common rules that are broken
		
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I agree. However there is a world away from a PP suggesting the rule may have been broken, discussing it and referring it to the handicap secretary and getting a penalty or not and calling someone a deliberate cheat. We only learn the rules by making mistakes and getting them pointed out (or doing silly things) and as long as its done properly no-one is trying to use the word cheat.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 9, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I would suggest that the most common well known rule that is broken, week in, week out is improving your lie, be it on the green, bunker or the rough, yet no one on here but me has done so, what are the chances ?
		
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Had you said "some" golfers deliberately do this, then I sadly couldn't disagree. I've known some golfers to stamp down behind the ball before they play it. Whether they knew or not that they could do this is another matter.


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## chrisd (Dec 9, 2019)

Swango1980 said:



			Had you said "some" golfers deliberately do this, then I sadly couldn't disagree. I've known some golfers to stamp down behind the ball before they play it. Whether they knew or not that they could do this is another matter.
		
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Of course some do it and are cheats for that  I'm pretty sure the great majority of golfers rarely improve their lie in any situation


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 9, 2019)

Backache said:



			Trying to build a handicap.
Cheating is another word for it. 

Click to expand...

Leave the cheating side out of it.
We all break rules as we learn the game that’s fine.


But someone doing their job should know what’s right and wrong.
Such a basic rule it just doesn't compute he doesn't know what he’s doing.


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## User20204 (Dec 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			But someone doing their job should know what’s right and wrong.
.
		
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Yet they call a rules official in at every opportunity.


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## Backache (Dec 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Leave the cheating side out of it.
We all break rules as we learn the game that’s fine.


But someone doing their job should know what’s right and wrong.
Such a basic rule it just doesn't compute he doesn't know what he’s doing.
		
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I was being a  bit facetious and pointing out that even incorrectly penalising yourself can give you an advantage elsewhere and some are paranoid enough to call it cheating.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 9, 2019)

Backache said:



			I was being a  bit facetious and pointing out that even incorrectly penalising yourself can give you an advantage elsewhere and some are paranoid enough to call it cheating.
		
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I can’t think of anything where a two shot penalty can give me an advantage?


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 9, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Yet they call a rules official in at every opportunity.
		
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I can’t see him call a referee and ask him if it’s ok to remove a mound of sand behind his ball.
Would love to hear John Paramors answer.


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## Backache (Dec 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I can’t think of anything where a two shot penalty can give me an advantage?
		
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Puts you out of the buffer and increases your handicap.


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## Parsaregood (Dec 9, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			So you have also never improved your lie in heavy rough or even semi rough for that matter, ever, nor have you ever inadvertently touched the sand with your club, ever ? 

What's the chances eh ???

I'm sure this comes across as I'm an out and out cheat and do so at every opportunity, I don't really ocare what everyone thinks, I just know in my length of time playing the game, everyone I've regularly played with, has done so at some stage or other and NOT called themselves out on it, yet everyone on here is the opposite, again, what's the chances.
		
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No I do not improve my lie in rough and if before the rule change I accidentally touched sand in a bunker with my clubhead I would have notified my playing partners and penalized myself for it.  You may like to do things like this or think it's ok to play like this. I do think you should try to be a better sport and play as honestly as you can if you do, there is a word for people who repeatedly try to better themselves on the course. In golf a cheat is as bad as it gets IMO and I'd rather play badly than cheat and win, just the way I am.  I  follow the rules the best I can and I'm very careful not to ground my club in rough etc if I think my ball might move the smallest amount. I do not build a stance by standing on branches etc. As I say I'd rather play rubbish than cheat but carry on if you do I'm sure it wont be long before someone digs you up.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 9, 2019)

Backache said:



			Puts you out of the buffer and increases your handicap.
		
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That depends on your goals .
I am trying my best to get back to cat1 so that’s not an advantage.
But can see it would be for some.


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## Backache (Dec 9, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			That depends on your goals .
I am trying my best to get back to cat1 so that’s not an advantage.
But can see it would be for some.
		
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Yup as I said I was being facetious and I doubt that there are many if any people posting regularly who are trying to build a handicap most are doing their damnedest to get it down. There again I also doubt that there are many people deliberately contravening the rules, though doubtless a few do so inadvertently.


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## User20204 (Dec 9, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			No I do not improve my lie in rough and if before the rule change I accidentally touched sand in a bunker with my clubhead I would have notified my playing partners and penalized myself for it.  You may like to do things like this or think it's ok to play like this. I do think you should try to be a better sport and play as honestly as you can if you do, there is a word for people who repeatedly try to better themselves on the course. In golf a cheat is as bad as it gets IMO and I'd rather play badly than cheat and win, just the way I am.  I  follow the rules the best I can and I'm very careful not to ground my club in rough etc if I think my ball might move the smallest amount. I do not build a stance by standing on branches etc. As I say I'd rather play rubbish than cheat but carry on if you do I'm sure it wont be long before someone digs you up.
		
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hahaha...that didn't take long eh. You're clearly trying to make out I'm an out and out cheat by exaggerating on what I've said, it's cool though cause I'm not surprised in the slightest folk trying to take the moral high ground on here, it's legendary, but like I've said, I don't believe you.


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## Parsaregood (Dec 9, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			hahaha...that didn't take long eh. You're clearly trying to make out I'm an out and out cheat by exaggerating on what I've said, it's cool though cause I'm not surprised in the slightest folk trying to take the moral high ground on here, it's legendary, but like I've said, I don't believe you.
		
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Well as long as I know myself that I play by the rules the best I can then I am comfortable, the fact you dont believe that people do is in itself quite worrying to me and tells me all I need to know


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## User20204 (Dec 9, 2019)

I base it on the fact I stated earlier, every single player I've played regular golf with over 40+ year period has, at some time or other knowingly broke the rules of golf, every one of them and you wonder why I can't believe that everyone on here has never knowingly broke the rules, it just doesn't add mate, it just doesn't add up. 

I absolutely understand if you don't wish to own up to it on a public forum, I'm cool with that and to a degree I get that, cause afterall, if you own up to that stigma, it's with you for life, isn't it.


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## Parsaregood (Dec 10, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I base it on the fact I stated earlier, every single player I've played regular golf with over 40+ year period has, at some time or other knowingly broke the rules of golf, every one of them and you wonder why I can't believe that everyone on here has never knowingly broke the rules, it just doesn't add mate, it just doesn't add up. 

I absolutely understand if you don't wish to own up to it on a public forum, I'm cool with that and to a degree I get that, cause afterall, if you own up to that stigma, it's with you for life, isn't it.
		
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I've never knowingly broken the rules and If i play with anyone who i think is in breach of them i always make a point to voice my concern to them. I do find and I'm not saying you fall into this category, certain groups at clubs etc have reputations or rumours that seem to follow them.  I've seen people cheat and I've taken them to task on it, I personally play by the rules and play in lots of county comps etc so would never jeopardize my reputation by cheating for one but I also wouldn't feel right about myself if I'd knowingly done something I knew to be wrong. I think you must play with the wrong folks if you dont know anybody who doesn't play golf by the rules, to me that's as bad as it gets in golf and if someone has a reputation for it I have to say I dont play with them and if I were drawn with someone I knew to be at it, I'd refuse to play with them by having a quiet word in the organisers ear.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 10, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I base it on the fact I stated earlier, every single player I've played regular golf with over 40+ year period has, at some time or other knowingly broke the rules of golf, every one of them and you wonder why I can't believe that everyone on here has never knowingly broke the rules, it just doesn't add mate, it just doesn't add up.

I absolutely understand if you don't wish to own up to it on a public forum, I'm cool with that and to a degree I get that, cause afterall, if you own up to that stigma, it's with you for life, isn't it.
		
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So, the people you have played with for over 40 years deliberately break the rules. You've been playing with cheats all this time? How depressing. Does the best cheater on the day often get the win? Personally, I'm fairly competitive. So, if I was playing with a bunch of cheats I'd just think I'd walk away. What's the point in competing with that? I guess you have sadly resorted to cheating yourself because you've felt there was no alternative when competing with these guys. Understandable, but still dont condone it in the slightest, nor have I ever heard any other golfer agree with your opinion that ALL golfers deliberately break the rules.


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## User20204 (Dec 10, 2019)

Swango1980 said:



			So, the people you have played with for over 40 years deliberately break the rules. You've been playing with cheats all this time? How depressing. Does the best cheater on the day often get the win? Personally, I'm fairly competitive. So, if I was playing with a bunch of cheats I'd just think I'd walk away. What's the point in competing with that? I guess you have sadly resorted to cheating yourself because you've felt there was no alternative when competing with these guys. Understandable, but still dont condone it in the slightest, nor have I ever heard any other golfer agree with your opinion that ALL golfers deliberately break the rules.
		
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You're welcome to interpret what I've said any way you wish, you will regardless but it seems you and the other chap seem to think myself and others go out week in week out and blatantly cheat, if that's how it's came across then that's my mistake. However, I have personally witnessed someone touch the sand when addressing his bunker shot, did he call it on himself ? no, am I going to call him out on it, nope, cause that would be the end of that friendship.

I've also witnessed another player incorrectly replace his ball on the green, did I call him out on it ? Not the first time I didn't but I did the next time. I've also witnessed another player incorrectly replace his ball, did he call it out, no, did I mention it, yep, in a light hearted manner, for friendship purposes, his reply.....it's not like we've got cameras watching us all over the place. 

Another example, guys ball is just off the green yet a sprinkler head is in his line, tough I said when he asked about it, he then took a stance with his foot in it, was I going to argue, nope, you just get on with it. 

So there is four separate instances I rolled off the top of my head, just in the past two years, so either I've been playing with a load of cheats or they are the only ones in golf that overlook the odd rules discretion, I know what I believe and for the record, these four separate instances were with different groups. 

I put it to anyone, these type of incidents come up in every round of golf all over the world, except on the GM forum.


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## User20204 (Dec 10, 2019)

Do you know what's the funniest thing, none of you lot have ever knowingly broke the rules, yet Patrick Reed is being slated by everyone and their granny about what he did and Rory McIlroy said this very day on the Golf Channel that he's witnessed a few things in his time on tour, yet no one on here has ever done it 

He and Robert Damron said they've seen things, and I'd say it's a fair bet if they two have seen things, then there is a high probability that everyone has seen things, yet said nothing, guys who have played at the very top of the game but the weekend warrior on here would straight to committee with a letter, you guys kill me you really do.

https://www.golfchannel.com/video/2...rick-reed-rule-violation?utm-tags=golf1308000


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## Jacko_G (Dec 10, 2019)

This thread has got great potential now, guarantee stop watches will get mentioned very very soon!

3 minutes 2 seconds "CHEAT"


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## Parsaregood (Dec 10, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			You're welcome to interpret what I've said any way you wish, you will regardless but it seems you and the other chap seem to think myself and others go out week in week out and blatantly cheat, if that's how it's came across then that's my mistake. However, I have personally witnessed someone touch the sand when addressing his bunker shot, did he call it on himself ? no, am I going to call him out on it, nope, cause that would be the end of that friendship.

I've also witnessed another player incorrectly replace his ball on the green, did I call him out on it ? Not the first time I didn't but I did the next time. I've also witnessed another player incorrectly replace his ball, did he call it out, no, did I mention it, yep, in a light hearted manner, for friendship purposes, his reply.....it's not like we've got cameras watching us all over the place. 

Another example, guys ball is just off the green yet a sprinkler head is in his line, tough I said when he asked about it, he then took a stance with his foot in it, was I going to argue, nope, you just get on with it. 

So there is four separate instances I rolled off the top of my head, just in the past two years, so either I've been playing with a load of cheats or they are the only ones in golf that overlook the odd rules discretion, I know what I believe and for the record, these four separate instances were with different groups. 

I put it to anyone, these type of incidents come up in every round of golf all over the world, except on the GM forum.
		
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Well I'm sorry to hear you've seen people do things and haven't mentioned it to them. It should  actually be easier to say to them if you regularly play with them, I would always say to someone if I thought they'd done something I thought wasnt right, especially if it's in a competition and potentially giving them an advantage to win something.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 10, 2019)

Parsaregood said:



			I've never knowingly broken the rules and If i play with anyone who i think is in breach of them i always make a point to voice my concern to them. I do find and I'm not saying you fall into this category, certain groups at clubs etc have reputations or rumours that seem to follow them.  I've seen people cheat and I've taken them to task on it, I personally play by the rules and play in lots of county comps etc so would never jeopardize my reputation by cheating for one but I also wouldn't feel right about myself if I'd knowingly done something I knew to be wrong. I think you must play with the wrong folks if you dont know anybody who doesn't play golf by the rules, to me that's as bad as it gets in golf and if someone has a reputation for it I have to say I dont play with them and if I were drawn with someone I knew to be at it, I'd refuse to play with them by having a quiet word in the organisers ear.
		
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Agree with this .
All my wins have meant a lot to me.
I can’t imagine what people think if they look at their trophy and know they cheated to win.


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## USER1999 (Dec 10, 2019)

Back to fat Pat, he should have got a ban. What he did was deliberate, and it was blatant cheating. Dyson got a big fine on the Euro tour for tapping down a spike mark, and a lengthy ban. Pat should get similar.


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## robinthehood (Dec 10, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Back to fat Pat, he should have got a ban. What he did was deliberate, and it was blatant cheating. Dyson got a big fine on the Euro tour for tapping down a spike mark, and a lengthy ban. Pat should get similar.
		
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Dyson wasn't banned.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 10, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Dyson wasn't banned.
		
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He was and he wasn’t he was given a two month ban suspended .
Never understood that ,why suspend a ban.
But you are correct he never actually served a ban.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 10, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			He was and he wasn’t he was given a two month ban suspended .
Never understood that ,why suspend a ban.
But you are correct he never actually served a ban.
		
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Would they have banned a "big name"?


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## robinthehood (Dec 10, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Would they have banned a "big name"?
		
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I think  a Scottish bloke may have got banned for moving his marker about,  but beyond that Nothing springs to mind. Which is sort of odd, when you see how rife cheating has been in other sports it's seem odd that we don't hear about it more in golf.
 I've seen some blatant stuff in club golf.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 10, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Would they have banned a "big name"?
		
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I very much dought it .
The sponsors would not be happy after parting with his appearance money.
It’s strange that you or me would be DQd but a pro not.

The one that has always stuck in my mind was in the masters where Tiger had an air shot on the tee.
“I deliberately missed the ball” because a bird flew past.
Because it’s Tiger everyone went “ok that sounds reasonable”
Can you imagine using that one in your monthly medal,


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## robinthehood (Dec 10, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I very much dought it .
The sponsors would not be happy after parting with his appearance money.
It’s strange that you or me would be DQd but a pro not.

The one that has always stuck in my mind was in the masters where Tiger had an air shot on the tee.
“I deliberately missed the ball” because a bird flew past.
Because it’s Tiger everyone went “ok that sounds reasonable”
Can you imagine using that one in your monthly medal,
		
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Well , I've  no problem with tiger doing that as he clearly meant to miss.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 10, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I think  a Scottish bloke may have got banned for moving his marker about,  but beyond that Nothing springs to mind. Which is sort of odd, when you see how rife cheating has been in other sports it's seem odd that we don't hear about it more in golf.
I've seen some blatant stuff in club golf.
		
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One of the Saltman brothers.

Again that one stinks as well. If the playing partners had seen something why not chin him their and then when "both" had observed any wrongdoing informed him and a referee. Why wait till the end of the round???


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## Swango1980 (Dec 10, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I very much dought it .
The sponsors would not be happy after parting with his appearance money.
It’s strange that you or me would be DQd but a pro not.

The one that has always stuck in my mind was in the masters where Tiger had an air shot on the tee.
“I deliberately missed the ball” because a bird flew past.
Because it’s Tiger everyone went “ok that sounds reasonable”
Can you imagine using that one in your monthly medal,
		
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Do you think it was possible Tiger accidentally missed the ball? Maybe there'd be a touch more doubt in his excuse if he was playing in your monthly medal off a handicap of 38.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 10, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Well , I've  no problem with tiger doing that as he clearly meant to miss.
		
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That’s my point we only have his word for that.
But as he is one of the best in the world we belive him.
But not Joe Bloggs in the medal he would be laughed out of the club.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 10, 2019)

Swango1980 said:



			Do you think it was possible Tiger accidentally missed the ball? Maybe there'd be a touch more doubt in his excuse if he was playing in your monthly medal off a handicap of 38.
		
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I think the opposite is true .try using that excuse in a medal.
If you stop your swing before the ball no problem.
But going past the ball was a stroke.
Unless you delibaretly didn’t play a stroke at the ball.
IT was a unique set of circumstances that I hadn’t heard of ,but I am very aware that you or me would not be able to do that.
I laughed at the time but shows you just how good the guy is.


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## robinthehood (Dec 10, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			That’s my point we only have his word for that.
But as he is one of the best in the world we belive him.
But not Joe Bloggs in the medal he would be laughed out of the club.
		
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No not at all, watch the tiger vid and he clearly slams on the breaks. If my pp did that I'd have no problems. 
However if he did it lots of times I may get suspicious 😉


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 10, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			One of the Saltman brothers.

Again that one stinks as well. If the playing partners had seen something why not chin him their and then when "both" had observed any wrongdoing informed him and a referee. Why wait till the end of the round???
		
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CHIN him on the course?
Normally that’s after a couple of pints.


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## Khamelion (Dec 10, 2019)

Pin-seeker said:



			Blimey maybe this was just a genuine mistake & we should give him the benefit of the doubt 🤷‍♂️
		
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Mistake = once

Cheating = Twice


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## Swango1980 (Dec 10, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I think the opposite is true .try using that excuse in a medal.
If you stop your swing before the ball no problem.
But going past the ball was a stroke.
Unless you delibaretly didn’t play a stroke at the ball.
IT was a unique set of circumstances that I hadn’t heard of ,but I am very aware that you or me would not be able to do that.
I laughed at the time but shows you just how good the guy is.
		
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A stroke has not been made by a player if they decide during the downswing not to strike the ball and avoids doing so by deliberately stopping the clubhead before it reaches the ball, or if unable to do so, deliberately misses the ball.

So, if Tiger deliberately missed the ball in the downswing, then there is no issue. The only question is, do you believe he deliberately missed the ball. Given the situation and the player, yes I am very comfortable that this is the truth. However, in another situation with a player of much poorer quality, then yes, it may be more difficult to believe this excuse. All you could hope for is that, they were honest. I have seen players make air shots before, and to be fair to them all, not one has ever tried to say they deliberately missed the ball, so their shot counted. Only on one occasion, a player did not count the stroke, but only because they didn't realise air shots count. I put them right with that when I was marking their card after the hole was complete.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 10, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			No not at all, watch the tiger vid and he clearly slams on the breaks. If my pp did that I'd have no problems.
However if he did it lots of times I may get suspicious 😉
		
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I have seen it numerous times and it’s total control.
But I do wonder what would have happened if the ref had said “pull the other one”
His reputation goes before him.
Or did before his car crash.

Also shows his grasp of the rules , to his advantage.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 10, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



*I have seen it numerous times and it’s total control.*
But I do wonder what would have happened if the ref had said “pull the other one”
His reputation goes before him.
Or did before his car crash.

Also shows his grasp of the rules , to his advantage.
		
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Your very first statement in that response indicates that you are sure he deliberately missed the ball, so I don't know why you have even brought it up as an issue??? Had the ref said "pull the other one", I suspect the judgement of the referee would be brought into question rather than the actions of Tiger. Also, it's not even a case of using the rules to his advantage. I'm pretty sure, on his downswing, he had no time to think "I'm going to pull out of this shot because the rules will allow me to get away with it". Pure instinct.

I think I heard somewhere before that, when young, his dad would randomly do things to distract him when he was playing a shot. This was how he developed that instinct to stop in the downswing. I'm pretty sure if 99% of golfers tried the same, they'd hit the ball anyway (badly) and probably snap their spine in 2.


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## robinthehood (Dec 10, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I have seen it numerous times and it’s total control.
But I do wonder what would have happened if the ref had said “pull the other one”
His reputation goes before him.
Or did before his car crash.

Also shows his grasp of the rules , to his advantage.
		
Click to expand...

Not sure it's any advantage.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 10, 2019)

Swango1980 said:



			A stroke has not been made by a player if they decide during the downswing not to strike the ball and avoids doing so by deliberately stopping the clubhead before it reaches the ball, or if unable to do so, deliberately misses the ball.

So, if Tiger deliberately missed the ball in the downswing, then there is no issue. The only question is, do you believe he deliberately missed the ball. Given the situation and the player, yes I am very comfortable that this is the truth. However, in another situation with a player of much poorer quality, then yes, it may be more difficult to believe this excuse. All you could hope for is that, they were honest. I have seen players make air shots before, and to be fair to them all, not one has ever tried to say they deliberately missed the ball, so their shot counted. Only on one occasion, a player did not count the stroke, but only because they didn't realise air shots count. I put them right with that when I was marking their card after the hole was complete.
		
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I think that's the whole point. Would you believe a 4 handicap golfer never mind a 24 handicap golfer if they stated they pulled out of the swing after witnessing them have a "fresh air"???

CC98 is 100% spot on they'd be laughed out of town.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 10, 2019)

Swango1980 said:



			Your very first statement in that response indicates that you are sure he deliberately missed the ball, so I don't know why you have even brought it up as an issue??? Had the ref said "pull the other one", I suspect the judgement of the referee would be brought into question rather than the actions of Tiger. Also, it's not even a case of using the rules to his advantage. I'm pretty sure, on his downswing, he had no time to think "I'm going to pull out of this shot because the rules will allow me to get away with it". Pure instinct.

I think I heard somewhere before that, when young, his dad would randomly do things to distract him when he was playing a shot. This was how he developed that instinct to stop in the downswing. I'm pretty sure if 99% of golfers tried the same, they'd hit the ball anyway (badly) and probably snap their spine in 2.
		
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I brought it up to illustrate some pros are believed no matter what.
Others not so.!


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 10, 2019)

Take Mickelson stopping his ball on the green .
Any minor pro would be DQd and on his way home .
But Phil is a big name.
The young Aisian lad done for slow play. I think it was in the Masters???
When so many big names just get away with it.


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## robinthehood (Dec 10, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Take Mickelson stopping his ball on the green .
Any minor pro would be DQd and on his way home .
But Phil is a big name.
The young Aisian lad done for slow play. I think it was in the Masters???
When so many big names just get away with it.
		
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Why would you dq for stopping a ball ? There is a rule to cover it.... I think there is a tendency to get a bit ott with the pros and rules.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 10, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Not sure it's any advantage.
		
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His wrong drop at the Masters under the wrong rule.
It’s an advantage if you know you are to big to be disqualified and the committee will find a way to only dish out a 2 shot penalty instead.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 10, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			I brought it up to illustrate some pros are believed no matter what.
Others not so.!
		
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Believed no matter what? But you've already indicated you believe that he deliberately missed the ball. That's isn't "no matter what", that is he had a genuine excuse which was permitted within the rules. So, in that specific scenario, I'm pretty sure that most qualified officials would accept this as a genuine excuse.

If it happened in a club game, then again, it completely depends on the circumstances. The ability of the player. The perceived honesty of the player. The way the shot looked (how much control they had), etc. We don't play under different rules to the pros. If a golfer pulled out of the downswing, no matter the handicap, then with everything considered I may well be as confident that they genuinely pulled out of the shot as Tiger was. But, if there didn't seem to be any distraction to their shot, they seemed to take a full swipe at the ball without any indication that there was anything different to their normal swing and they had a reputation of being a little devious, then yes, I may question their excuse.


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## robinthehood (Dec 10, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			His wrong drop at the Masters under the wrong rule.
It’s an advantage if you know you are to big to be disqualified and the committee will find a way to only dish out a 2 shot penalty instead.
		
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Which wasn't what happened.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 10, 2019)

Swango1980 said:



			Believed no matter what? But you've already indicated you believe that he deliberately missed the ball. That's isn't "no matter what", that is he had a genuine excuse which was permitted within the rules. So, in that specific scenario, I'm pretty sure that most qualified officials would accept this as a genuine excuse.

If it happened in a club game, then again, it completely depends on the circumstances. The ability of the player. The perceived honesty of the player. The way the shot looked (how much control they had), etc. We don't play under different rules to the pros. If a golfer pulled out of the downswing, no matter the handicap, then with everything considered I may well be as confident that they genuinely pulled out of the shot as Tiger was. But, if there didn't seem to be any distraction to their shot, they seemed to take a full swipe at the ball without any indication that there was anything different to their normal swing and they had a reputation of being a little devious, then yes, I may question their excuse.
		
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Who believes him .
I bet there are as many don’t that do.
We know what he is capable of ,but I do remember the commentators disagreeing about it.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 10, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Take Mickelson stopping his ball on the green .
Any minor pro would be DQd and on his way home .
But Phil is a big name.
The young Aisian lad done for slow play. I think it was in the Masters???
When so many big names just get away with it.
		
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I think this example illustrates your point much better. I can accept that argument, that indeed was a strange case. Although the officials gave him a 2 shot penalty for hitting a moving ball, there did seem to be an option to DQ for willfully deflecting a ball (rule 1-2 at the time). I bet this was covered on this forum at the time, but you could be right in that a less well known player might have received harsher punishment.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 10, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Who believes him .
I bet there are as many don’t that do.
We know what he is capable of ,but I do remember the commentators disagreeing about it.
		
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I'd like to know, who DOES believe that a golf professional (not even one of, if not the best of all time) accidentally missed the ball during an unimpeded swing? They need their head examined


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## Jacko_G (Dec 10, 2019)

Swango1980 said:



			Believed no matter what? But you've already indicated you believe that he deliberately missed the ball. That's isn't "no matter what", that is he had a genuine excuse which was permitted within the rules. So, in that specific scenario, I'm pretty sure that most qualified officials would accept this as a genuine excuse.

If it happened in a club game, then again, it completely depends on the circumstances. The ability of the player. The perceived honesty of the player. The way the shot looked (how much control they had), etc. We don't play under different rules to the pros. If a golfer pulled out of the downswing, no matter the handicap, then with everything considered I may well be as confident that they genuinely pulled out of the shot as Tiger was. But, if there didn't seem to be any distraction to their shot, they seemed to take a full swipe at the ball without any indication that there was anything different to their normal swing and they had a reputation of being a little devious, then yes, I may question their excuse.
		
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"Ability" "perceived" "may well" "devious" "question"

😂😂😂😂

Nothing like hedging your bets and getting splinters in your backside!


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 10, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Which wasn't what happened.
		
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He dropped in the wrong place after hitting the flag and going in the water.
He should have dropped as near as possible to his last shot ,but he dropped in the wrong place.
He signed his card and was later given a 2 shot penalty.

If that had been the young Aisian lad who was done for slow play he would probably be going home .


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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 10, 2019)

https://www.golfmagic.com/golf-news/justin-thomas-roasts-patrick-reed-bunker-presidents-cup

When even your team mates are doing this.............


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 10, 2019)

Swango1980 said:



			I'd like to know, who DOES believe that a golf professional (not even one of, if not the best of all time) accidentally missed the ball during an unimpeded swing? They need their head examined 

Click to expand...

A bird flies past =fact.
Air shot or deliberate miss open to argument.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 10, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			"Ability" "perceived" "may well" "devious" "question"

😂😂😂😂

Nothing like hedging your bets and getting splinters in your backside!
		
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You can list as many words as you like. I'll sum it up in two. Common Sense. I guess some people are incapable of understanding the concept. You judge everything on it's individual merits. Based on that, you can then make your own interpretation as to the honesty of the player, In Tiger's case, in my mind, there was no doubt he was genuine. And clearly the officials felt the same. That's not to say the same judgement would be given to another player if circumstances where different, but it also doesn't mean that I'd automatically call a higher handicapper a liar either.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 10, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



https://www.golfmagic.com/golf-news/justin-thomas-roasts-patrick-reed-bunker-presidents-cup

When even your team mates are doing this.............

Click to expand...

It says Tiger had a word with him.
“ Next time use the bird flying excuse”


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## Swango1980 (Dec 10, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			A bird flies past =fact.
Air shot or deliberate miss open to argument.
		
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Clearly. And I'm very happy with my side of the argument that the player deliberately missed the ball, especially as I'm aware he has the ability to do so and also that, had he not deliberately tried to miss the ball, a bird flying past would hardly end up in him missing it completely, it would more likely end up in him mis-hitting it. I don't feel I'd have much of a leg to stand on if I felt the player was lying and he accidentally missed the ball. But, thankfully it's not up to us to decide.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 10, 2019)

Bit late to the show on this one, dont know which is worse, cheating or the fact he cheated but says he doesn't know he cheated so it dont count. Either way he is a cheat and ave a feeling its gonna stick.


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## patricks148 (Dec 10, 2019)

hes even getting ripped by team mates 




__
		http://instagr.am/p/B54cEW3FdEL/


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## Parsaregood (Dec 10, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			One of the Saltman brothers.

Again that one stinks as well. If the playing partners had seen something why not chin him their and then when "both" had observed any wrongdoing informed him and a referee. Why wait till the end of the round???
		
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Did his playing partner not refuse to sign his card ?


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## Tashyboy (Dec 10, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			hes even getting ripped by team mates 




__
		http://instagr.am/p/B54cEW3FdEL/


Click to expand...

yup its gonna stick.


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## Foxholer (Dec 10, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			One of the Saltman brothers.

Again that one stinks as well. If the playing partners had seen something why not chin him their and then when "both" had observed any wrongdoing informed him and a referee. Why wait till the end of the round???
		
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Elliot was the one!

Lloyd is one of the nicest (and 'proper') possible golfers anyone could meet. Not sure about Zach, but their father is (was) certainly assertive. I was nearby when he negotiated their Aegon sponsorship.

As for 'waiting till the end of the round'...I'm pretty sure it would have screwed up the rest of the round of guy who observed the cheating more by raising the issue! I've actually been in a similar situation and, likewise, I bottled it for too long!


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## Tashyboy (Dec 10, 2019)

just outta interest, and i don't know if its been said but he did it twice. is it not a two shot penalty for each occasion.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 10, 2019)

I guess he was deemed to be in breach of only improving his lie once, even though he took two goes at it (i.e. he didn't play the ball in between, so he wasn't improving his lie for two separate shots). After all, if a 4 shot penalty was considered appropriate, then had he only done it once but really taken a huge amount of sand away (more than he did in his 2 efforts) would a lesser 2 shot penalty be appropriate? Probably not. Either way, he has ensured that the camera's will be attracted to him in the future, dying to catch him out.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 10, 2019)

Swango1980 said:



			I guess he was deemed to be in breach of only improving his lie once, even though he took two goes at it (i.e. he didn't play the ball in between, so he wasn't improving his lie for two separate shots). After all, if a 4 shot penalty was considered appropriate, then had he only done it once but really taken a huge amount of sand away (more than he did in his 2 efforts) would a lesser 2 shot penalty be appropriate? Probably not. Either way, he has ensured that the camera's will be attracted to him in the future, dying to catch him out.
		
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leopard and spots and all that


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 10, 2019)

Swango1980 said:



			I guess he was deemed to be in breach of only improving his lie once, even though he took two goes at it (i.e. he didn't play the ball in between, so he wasn't improving his lie for two separate shots). After all, if a 4 shot penalty was considered appropriate, then had he only done it once but really taken a huge amount of sand away (more than he did in his 2 efforts) would a lesser 2 shot penalty be appropriate? Probably not. Either way, he has ensured that the camera's will be attracted to him in the future, dying to catch him out.
		
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The thing I don’t understand is you are allowed to ground your club in a waste area 
so if he took the sand away on his backswing it would not be a penalty as long as he played the shot.
This would have solved his problem.


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## sunshine (Dec 10, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Whichever way you break a rule, by definition it is cheating.
		
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You're very clear, breaking a rule is cheating, whether you were aware of it or not.



HomerJSimpson said:



			Ignorance is no defence
		
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Reinforcing your point, breaking a rule is cheating and ignorance is no excuse.



HomerJSimpson said:



			We only learn the rules by making mistakes and getting them pointed out (or doing silly things) and as long as its done properly no-one is trying to use the word cheat.
		
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But now it isn't cheating? Make your mind up! These posts are all within half an hour of each other. Do you put any thought into your posts?


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## Jacko_G (Dec 10, 2019)

A very common sense assessment by Rory.

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/rory-mcilroy-patrick-reed-rules-row/


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## User20204 (Dec 10, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			A very common sense assessment by Rory.

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/rory-mcilroy-patrick-reed-rules-row/

Click to expand...


I've already posted the video of said interview.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 10, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			I've already posted the video of said interview.
		
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I'm just wanting my post count to increase. 

Don't watch videos on my phone, and since GM would rather take money and render their site unusable with stupid adverts I only use my phone to browse the forum.


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## User20204 (Dec 10, 2019)

Brandel Chamblee is tearing him a new one, in at least two separate interviews I've watched now, it's quite funny.


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## Slab (Dec 11, 2019)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Brandel Chamblee is tearing him a new one, in at least two separate interviews I've watched now, it's quite funny.
		
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Yeah, he even compared it to Nixon! (the blokes an ejit)


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## bladeplayer (Dec 11, 2019)

Havent read all the replys so apologies just curious .. we are in a comp . One of us rolls a putt up close and says 
.il finish out .. common reply is 
 Take ur time .. a courteous reply which technicaly is advice on the shot to be played.. 
Penalty ? ?  Advice is .. 

Ive never called it .. am i a cheat ? 
Pedantically curious 😉


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## virtuocity (Dec 11, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			Havent read all the replys so apologies just curious .. we are in a comp . One of us rolls a putt up close and says
.il finish out .. common reply is
Take ur time .. a courteous reply which technicaly is advice on the shot to be played..
Penalty ? ?  Advice is ..

Ive never called it .. am i a cheat ?
Pedantically curious 😉
		
Click to expand...

Common query that has been cleared up before.  It’s not advice.  Similar to telling someone to ‘take care’.


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## bladeplayer (Dec 11, 2019)

virtuocity said:



			Common query that has been cleared up before.  It’s not advice.  Similar to telling someone to ‘take care’.
		
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Has it ? Apologies i didnt know that .


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## patricks148 (Dec 12, 2019)

just watched him tee off on the first was getting plenty from the crowed, on guy shouted something about a spade in his bag and when he hit his drive, get in the bunker was the cry and a huge cheer when it did.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 12, 2019)

I actually think he got off very lightly. Wasn't too much heckling at all that I heard.


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## patricks148 (Dec 12, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			I actually think he got off very lightly. Wasn't too much heckling at all that I heard.
		
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i only switched it on for a few mins so only saw the tee shots, he got boo'd when they introduced him and a few shouted stuff though it was difficult to hear it all onthe than shovel and get in the bunker. TBH the crowds didn't look that big from limited bit i saw


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 13, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1205370676258975745


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## Jacko_G (Dec 13, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1205370676258975745

Click to expand...

I've seen this all over social media and I still cant see any issue with it at all. Its called banter.

Crowd giving it to him, he is giving it back. No moral high grounds, no nastyness just banter in my opinion.


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## Dan2501 (Dec 13, 2019)

Wow, just about sums Reed up in a video clip. He's 0-4 in teamplay in the last 2 team events, maybe concentrate on winning games instead of celebrating the fact you're a cheat. Can't stand him.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 13, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			I've seen this all over social media and I still cant see any issue with it at all. Its called banter.

Crowd giving it to him, he is giving it back. No moral high grounds, no nastyness just banter in my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

Yes agree with this ,he is entitled to give it back.

My main concern is the ruling bodies considered what he did just a 2 shot penalty.
It was deliberate cheating .
But the crowds are letting him know what they think .
The ruling bodies would be wise to listen to what the ordinary golfer thinks of cheating .


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## duncan mackie (Dec 13, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes agree with this ,he is entitled to give it back.

My main concern is the ruling bodies considered what he did just a 2 shot penalty.
It was deliberate cheating .
But the crowds are letting him know what they think .
The ruling bodies would be wise to listen to what the ordinary golfer thinks of cheating .
		
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Just to be clear, your choice of words implies USGA/R&A ie the ruling bodies - in this case the decision was entirely made by the tournament committee at the event.


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## RangeMonkey (Dec 13, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes agree with this ,he is entitled to give it back.

My main concern is the ruling bodies considered what he did just a 2 shot penalty.
It was deliberate cheating .
But the crowds are letting him know what they think .
The ruling bodies would be wise to listen to what the ordinary golfer thinks of cheating .
		
Click to expand...

The ruling bodies have to follow the rules, and the rule is a two stroke penalty.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 13, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			Just to be clear, your choice of words implies USGA/R&A ie the ruling bodies - in this case the decision was entirely made by the tournament committee at the event.
		
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Yes i know but don’t they have discretion for a serious breach of the rules?


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## RangeMonkey (Dec 13, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes i know but don’t they have discretion for a serious breach of the rules?
		
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I don’t believe so. I believe the RoG sets out the penalty for each type of infraction. Improving your lie is the general penalty, which is two strokes.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 13, 2019)

RangeMonkey said:



			I don’t believe so. I believe the RoG sets out the penalty for each type of infraction. Improving your lie is the general penalty, which is two strokes.
		
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What about doing it twice?
Is that a serious breach.?


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 13, 2019)

RangeMonkey said:



			I don’t believe so. I believe the RoG sets out the penalty for each type of infraction. Improving your lie is the general penalty, which is two strokes.
		
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Rule (1.2a in the interpretations ) bullet point 8 seems to disagree with you.
If you deliberately break a rule to gain an advantage you can be DQd
Even if you incurred a penalty under another rule.
That’s how I read it.


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## sunshine (Dec 13, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Rule (1.2a in the interpretations ) bullet point 8 seems to disagree with you.
If you deliberately break a rule to gain an advantage you can be DQd
Even if you incurred a penalty under another rule.
That’s how I read it.
		
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Is this more of a PGA tour disciplinary thing , Ie breaching code of conduct, rather than a tournament penalty?


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## fundy (Dec 13, 2019)

sunshine said:



			Is this more of a PGA tour disciplinary thing , Ie breaching code of conduct, rather than a tournament penalty?
		
Click to expand...


the PGA tour arguably the biggest culprits in this for me, theyre happily laughing, belittling and dismissing the issue and actively coming out pro Reed on social media since it happened having let the cheat off as lightly as they could


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 13, 2019)

sunshine said:



			Is this more of a PGA tour disciplinary thing , Ie breaching code of conduct, rather than a tournament penalty?
		
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It’s in the interpretations of the rules of golf , on the R&A rules of golf website .
I thought they were for everyone.

Well I must be reading it wrong ! It’s quite clear.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 13, 2019)

fundy said:



			the PGA tour arguably the biggest culprits in this for me, theyre happily laughing, belittling and dismissing the issue and actively coming out pro Reed on social media since it happened having let the cheat off as lightly as they could
		
Click to expand...

That’s the problem ,there is a interpretation that they can dq him but choose not to.


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## Slab (Dec 14, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			What about doing it twice?
Is that a serious breach.?
		
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I think it was only one lie that he improved = one breach


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## Tashyboy (Dec 14, 2019)

Patrick Reeds caddy booted out of presidents cup for having hold of a fan who was abusing patrick reed.  Like I said this ain't going away for Mr reed.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 14, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Patrick Reeds caddy booted out of presidents cup for having hold of a fan who was abusing patrick reed.  Like I said this ain't going away for Mr reed.
		
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Sounds like another storm in a tea cup.

Shouldn't have happened but I find it quite an overreaction. I think Reed needs to save a few puppies from a river and start doing some tremendous charity work on the scale of Bubba Watson to try and show a humble human side. He is quite clearly not even a pantomime villian these days but a genuinely hated person.


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## IainP (Dec 14, 2019)

Be interesting to read what was actually said. Fine line between supporting your side, banter, and abuse


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## Whydowedoit (Dec 14, 2019)

Why wasnt the abusive "spectator" thrown out rather than the caddie?? Doesnt seem right at all.


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## Bunkermagnet (Dec 14, 2019)

IainP said:



			Be interesting to read what was actually said. Fine line between supporting your side, banter, and abuse
		
Click to expand...

BBC report on it
Verbal abuse towards Reed so the caddy jumps down from a cart to join in.
 Personally I think Reed needs to show a huge amount of humility and accept he cheated instead of trying to make excuses. He also needs to stop responding to the crowds response to him. As my dad always said, you cant argue with someone who stays quiet.

Its a shame, as prior to this event I actually quite liked Reed and his combatative nature, especially as he is one of the few Americans happy to play the European tour. Now though he strikes me as a" win at all costs, even if that means cheating", and I don't like people like that.


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## Dan2501 (Dec 14, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1205756318453260288
Things going well for “Captain America”


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## Jacko_G (Dec 14, 2019)

It's always easier to kick a man when he's down to be fair.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 14, 2019)

So let me get this right, when the ryder cup is on in america the abuse the Europe team gets is fair play coz no one is ejected, the abuse monty got over the years is fair game. But a unapologetic cheat is being kicked when he is down. Nope like i said, this aint going away. He is tarnished for life. Wonder what his sponsors think


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 14, 2019)

Slab said:



			I think it was only one lie that he improved = one breach
		
Click to expand...

HE Improved his lie, so he has a new lie.
He improved it again And even better lie, so that’s twice for me.


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## Slab (Dec 14, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			HE Improved his lie, so he has a new lie.
He improved it again And even better lie, so that’s twice for me.
		
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Not quite how it works though


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## Backache (Dec 14, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			HE Improved his lie, so he has a new lie.
He improved it again And even better lie, so that’s twice for me.
		
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He only played one stroke from it, ie the lie was only made better for one shot even if there were two actions to do it. .


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## Swinglowandslow (Dec 14, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			So let me get this right, when the ryder cup is on in america the abuse the Europe team gets is fair play coz no one is ejected, the abuse monty got over the years is fair game. But a unapologetic cheat is being kicked when he is down. Nope like i said, this aint going away. He is tarnished for life. Wonder what his sponsors think
		
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No, the abuse that Monty got was outright wrong and action should have been taken. 
I must be an old dinosaur because I think all this so called banter is more likely abuse, done to put off the recipient. It is not at all like the banter which we have when we play together.
The stuff that comes from so called fans when these events take place is a blight on the sport. I don't see why spectator participation cannot be confine s to applause, or groans or Oohs and Ahs, etc.
Some years ago, I went to Wentworth to see the Pros:
everyone was respectful, though excited to see the best. Nowadays it seems that yobs and drunks are too easily tolerated.


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## USER1999 (Dec 14, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			It's always easier to kick a man when he's down to be fair.
		
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Isn't that the best time?


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 14, 2019)

The caddy simply shouldn't have got involved. Yes Reed is a cheat (imo) and yes he was arguably right to stand up for his employer but again imo he crossed a line by grabbing a spectator. How far removed was it from a Cantona like incident


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## Jacko_G (Dec 14, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			The caddy simply shouldn't have got involved. Yes Reed is a cheat (imo) and yes he was arguably right to stand up for his employer but again imo he crossed a line by grabbing a spectator. How far removed was it from a Cantona like incident
		
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How far I'd suggest as far as A-Z!


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## bladeplayer (Dec 14, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			The caddy simply shouldn't have got involved. Yes Reed is a cheat (imo) and yes he was arguably right to stand up for his employer but again imo he crossed a line by grabbing a spectator. How far removed was it from a Cantona like incident
		
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Its family tho more than employer . Spectator was spewing profanities was aproaching player  brother in.law pushed him and knocked beer outa his hands...


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 15, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			Its family tho more than employer . Spectator was spewing profanities was aproaching player  brother in.law pushed him and knocked beer outa his hands...
		
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For me it’s all about lack of action .
From the tour against Reed .
And security against knobs shouting things at the Players.


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## Tashyboy (Dec 15, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			For me it’s all about lack of action .
From the tour against Reed .
And security against knobs shouting things at the Players.
		
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And this is exactly my point, what was done when Monty was abused. Nothing. Ryder cup players in America nothing. notice that these Abusers are from over the pond. Yet Reed who is from over the pond gets abuse for cheating. Is that right, No. but what have the authority's done in the past. Nothing.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 15, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			And this is exactly my point, what was done when Monty was abused. Nothing. Ryder cup players in America nothing. notice that these Abusers are from over the pond. Yet Reed who is from over the pond gets abuse for cheating. Is that right, No. but what have the authority's done in the past. Nothing.
		
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And what did the European Tour do when the fans at Paris were acting like a bunch of morons, shouting and hollering at the Americans? What did they do when Poulter was acting like a compete tit running around dressed as a postbox winding up the crowds into a frenzy when there were still games out on the course?

While Monty got abused let's not pretend we're squeaky clean and angels. The Ryder Cup atmosphere (IMO) is an utter embarrassment now. Drunken rowdy idiots shouting and chanting is not golf. It certainly shouldn't be encouraged.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 15, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			And this is exactly my point, what was done when Monty was abused. Nothing.
		
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Monty along with Payne Stewart had 4 or 5 spectators thrown out




			Ryder cup players in America nothing. notice that these Abusers are from over the pond.
		
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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ming-abuse-at-rory-mcilroy-1.2813713?mode=amp

Rory had fan thrown out as well 




			Yet Reed who is from over the pond gets abuse for cheating. Is that right, No. but what have the authority's done in the past. Nothing.
		
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Authorities have done a lot over the years to calm it all down especially after 99 

Reed was penalised for his rule break - he shouldn’t be open season for people to abuse and the caddy may have overreacted but he was right to confront a fan if they are being abusive


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## Imurg (Dec 15, 2019)

bladeplayer said:



			Its family tho more than employer . Spectator was spewing profanities was aproaching player  brother in.law pushed him and knocked beer outa his hands...
		
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Mind you, in Australia  that only comes 2nd to murder....


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## bladeplayer (Dec 15, 2019)

In 


clubchamp98 said:



			For me it’s all about lack of action .
From the tour against Reed .
And security against knobs shouting things at the Players.
		
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 in A nutshell


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## duncan mackie (Dec 15, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			It’s in the interpretations of the rules of golf , on the R&A rules of golf website .
I thought they were for everyone.

Well I must be reading it wrong ! It’s quite clear.
		
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You aren't reading it wrong - but you are putting your interpretation of the situation on it.
You have decided that the player deliberately broke the rules (to gain an advantage in the rule you quote).
The committee can see no basis to pursue that line - and quite frankly neither can I.   The basis for that rule is that is that the player deliberately takes a penalty in order to gain an advantage - For 1 shot he could have dropped outside the waste area, or with 1 stroke he could have blasted it out, so why deliberately choose a 2 shot penalty? Clearly fails on gaining an advantage.
You are trying to apply an inapplicable rule to the situation.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 15, 2019)

duncan mackie said:



			You aren't reading it wrong - but you are putting your interpretation of the situation on it.
You have decided that the player deliberately broke the rules (to gain an advantage in the rule you quote).
The committee can see no basis to pursue that line - and quite frankly neither can I.   The basis for that rule is that is that the player deliberately takes a penalty in order to gain an advantage - For 1 shot he could have dropped outside the waste area, or with 1 stroke he could have blasted it out, so why deliberately choose a 2 shot penalty? Clearly fails on gaining an advantage.
You are trying to apply an inapplicable rule to the situation.
		
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No it’s just cheating.
I was responding to a post that said they didn’t / couldn’t DQ him.

But what I would say with a player of Reeds standard ( or any pro golfer)if you think what he did wasn’t deliberate then I can’t argue my point.
Most ams know you can’t do this.
It was deliberate and he gained an advantage.
If the cameras never caught it ,I dought he would have called it on himself.(twice)


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## USER1999 (Dec 15, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			No it’s just cheating.
I was responding to a post that said they didn’t / couldn’t DQ him.

But what I would say with a player of Reeds standard ( or any pro golfer)if you think what he did wasn’t deliberate then I can’t argue my point.
Most ams know you can’t do this.
It was deliberate and he gained an advantage.
If the cameras never caught it ,I dought he would have called it on himself.(twice)
		
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Can you improve your lie twice? Or only once?


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 15, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Can you improve your lie twice? Or only once?
		
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You scrape some sand away you have a new improved lie.
You scrape some more sand away because you never got enough first go so I would say that’s twice.
Not happy with his first attempt so had another go.!

If your missus kicked you in the balls 
Then kicked you in the same balls again.
How many times has your missus kicked you in the balls.?


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## Swango1980 (Dec 15, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			You scrape some sand away you have a new improved lie.
You scrape some more sand away because you never got enough first go so I would say that’s twice.
Not happy with his first attempt so had another go.!

If your missus kicked you in the balls 
Then kicked you in the same balls again.
How many times has your missus kicked you in the balls.?[/QUOTE
But what happens if you take a huge amount of sand the first time, meaning you don't have to have a second go? Would you say you've only done it once?

You can't improve your lie for a shot you're about to take. If you do, you get the penalty, it doesn't matter how many goes you have to improve it, the same penalty applies. If the penalties were to add up, for the same shot, the player might as well just go to town in their first effort so it only takes once and a lesser overall penalty.

I think the major question was, did he do it intentionally. If so, that could have been a serious breach worthy of DQ. I'm pretty sure it was deliberate, like many others in here. But, I guess it is a difficult one to prove
		
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## Lord Tyrion (Dec 15, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			You scrape some sand away you have a new improved lie.
You scrape some more sand away because you never got enough first go so I would say that’s twice.
Not happy with his first attempt so had another go.!

If your missus kicked you in the balls
Then kicked you in the same balls again.
How many times has your missus kicked you in the balls.?
		
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I'd have passed out after kick one so I couldn't answer that 😨😩🤪


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## USER1999 (Dec 15, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'd have passed out after kick one so I couldn't answer that 😨😩🤪
		
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Some people pay good money for this.


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## clubchamp98 (Dec 15, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Some people pay good money for this.
		
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That’s hard to understand as well.


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## Foxholer (Dec 16, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			Can you improve your *lie* twice? Or only once?
		
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We'll see as interviews of the PM increase!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 6, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214138765142302725


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## Crow (Jan 6, 2020)

How do they know that he was very angry?

Sounded more like a gobby drunk to me.


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## patricks148 (Jan 6, 2020)

not sure if you can say that put him off the ball was well on the way to the hole before the call


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## Jacko_G (Jan 6, 2020)

Sadly Paddy will require to get very accustomed to that as this isn't going away anytime soon.

God I hate to think what he's going to be on the receiving end of/subjected to at the Phoenix Waste Management where the clowns that run that Tournament actively encourage loutish behaviour fuelled by copious amounts of alcohol and sun!

He just needs to get his head down for the next couple of seasons and plough on, a couple of Majors will also help his cause.


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## Grant85 (Jan 6, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214138765142302725

Click to expand...

With this having happened, I think it could open the floodgates when he starts playing events in more populated areas. 

Could be that there's multiple people shouting it over every shot and he has to learn to deal with that or plummet down the rankings. 

It's remarkable the tour have stuck by him so much and haven't really issued any punishment following the bunker incident. Personally think he should have had to miss a few events. 

I think the tour are so afraid of taking serious punishment as they don't want to risk a big player getting caught in a similar incident, and suddenly he's missing events that Sponsors are paying millions to get in on. 

Would Sentry have been bothered if Reed was banned from this event? Well him being there certainly gave the event (and therefore the sponsor) that bit more coverage than they might have got had he not been there. 

But what if it was a more popular guy that that fans and sponsors care more about. They have shown time and time again, they just don't want to set a precedent for banning players. Spieth not playing enough new events in 2018, as one more example when a player escaped punishment.


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## IanM (Jan 6, 2020)

His comments at the end shows what a wombat he is.....   just say, "Dam, I 3 stabbed, well done to the winner".... and go home!


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## Jacko_G (Jan 6, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			With this having happened, I think it could open the floodgates when he starts playing events in more populated areas.

Could be that there's multiple people shouting it over every shot and he has to learn to deal with that or plummet down the rankings.

It's remarkable the tour have stuck by him so much and haven't really issued any punishment following the bunker incident. Personally think he should have had to miss a few events.

I think the tour are so afraid of taking serious punishment as they don't want to risk a big player getting caught in a similar incident, and suddenly he's missing events that Sponsors are paying millions to get in on.

Would Sentry have been bothered if Reed was banned from this event? Well him being there certainly gave the event (and therefore the sponsor) that bit more coverage than they might have got had he not been there.

But what if it was a more popular guy that that fans and sponsors care more about. They have shown time and time again, they just don't want to set a precedent for banning players. Spieth not playing enough new events in 2018, as one more example when a player escaped punishment.
		
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No it's not he got a penalty.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 6, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			With this having happened, I think it could open the floodgates when he starts playing events in more populated areas.

Could be that there's multiple people shouting it over every shot and he has to learn to deal with that or plummet down the rankings.

It's remarkable the tour have stuck by him so much and haven't really issued any punishment following the bunker incident. Personally think he should have had to miss a few events.

I think the tour are so afraid of taking serious punishment as they don't want to risk a big player getting caught in a similar incident, and suddenly he's missing events that Sponsors are paying millions to get in on.

Would Sentry have been bothered if Reed was banned from this event? Well him being there certainly gave the event (and therefore the sponsor) that bit more coverage than they might have got had he not been there.

But what if it was a more popular guy that that fans and sponsors care more about. They have shown time and time again, they just don't want to set a precedent for banning players. Spieth not playing enough new events in 2018, as one more example when a player escaped punishment.
		
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Why should be banned ?! 

He was penalised for his rule break at the time so why ban him ?


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 6, 2020)

I think it comes down to intent.
If he did it deliberately then some sort of ban was deserved.
If he didn’t do it deliberately then a penalty.
depends what camp your in, or your opinion of cheating!

But I just can’t see a world class golfer making a mistake like that, not once but twice .
So I am in the he did it deliberately camp.

But I can’t help thinking if it had been some young rookie (Masters ) he would not have got off so lightly.


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## Marshy77 (Jan 7, 2020)

He cheated, he got penalised, not many people like him - move on.


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## Grant85 (Jan 7, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			No it's not he got a penalty.
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			Why should be banned ?!

He was penalised for his rule break at the time so why ban him ?
		
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He got a 2 shot penalty because the tour accepted his explanation that he improved his lie accidentally rather than intentionally. 

If you believe that, then I have a bridge to sell you. 

Simon Dyson touched the line of his putt and got a 2 month ban, which imo is the kind of thing that should have happened here.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 7, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			He got a 2 shot penalty because the tour accepted his explanation that he improved his lie accidentally rather than intentionally.

If you believe that, then I have a bridge to sell you.

Simon Dyson touched the line of his putt and got a 2 month ban, which imo is the kind of thing that should have happened here.
		
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The key is "in your opinion".

It's been dealt with. Move on.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 7, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			The key is "in your opinion".

It's been dealt with. Move on.
		
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Being labelled a cheat is the hardest thing to move on from. If people believed he actually did it intentionally, and therefore cheated (which they have reasonable grounds to do so), then they will always label him a cheat. It is not so easy to say "he got a penalty, move on" as if everyone who believes he cheated are now to simply forget it ever happened.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 7, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			He got a 2 shot penalty because the tour accepted his explanation that he improved his lie accidentally rather than intentionally.

If you believe that, then I have a bridge to sell you.

Simon Dyson touched the line of his putt and got a 2 month ban, which imo is the kind of thing that should have happened here.
		
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Dyson got a “suspended” ban for deliberately improving his lie by patting down a spike mark in front of his ball when he knew that’s not allowed in the rules 

Can you prove that Reed did it deliberatly- as you can’t then he was penalised under golf rules and we move on.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 7, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Being labelled a cheat is the hardest thing to move on from. If people believed he actually did it intentionally, and therefore cheated (which they have reasonable grounds to do so), then they will always label him a cheat. It is not so easy to say "he got a penalty, move on" as if everyone who believes he cheated are now to simply forget it ever happened.
		
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Feel free to continue to eat yourself up. I'll move on.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 7, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Feel free to continue to eat yourself up. I'll move on.
		
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I'm not eating myself up at all. I simply continue to have my opinion. But equally, don't continue to eat yourself up because others are not moving on like you hope. Expect the topic to be discussed long into the future on this forum and other media.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 7, 2020)

Any examples of what happens when a pro admits to cheating as he subsequently felt very guilty about doing so and asks to be forgiven? Whether he was caught doing so or not I'm not sure matters if you admit it - but how was that admission received - how _would _it be received?


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## Dan2501 (Jan 7, 2020)

Reed's going to get the shouts all year, and rightly so. He's a cheat, got away with a far too lenient penalty and was even applauded by the PGA Tour for "being a gentleman", it's embarrassing. He's going to get absolutely nailed in Phoenix, and it's going to be hilarious.


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## Grant85 (Jan 7, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Dyson got a “suspended” ban for deliberately improving his lie by patting down a spike mark in front of his ball when he knew that’s not allowed in the rules

Can you prove that Reed did it deliberatly- as you can’t then he was penalised under golf rules and we move on.
		
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Obviously no one can, but the balance of evidence is that he shouldn't have done it, he knew what he was doing, it's hardly his 1st offence etc. 

Also I think back in the day, Reed's peers would have been far quicker to turn on him, and that would have made a difference to how Reed's explanation was taken by the tour. Now, pretty much everyone in the events Reed is playing are multi-millionaires and have financial security. So people aren't sweating the fact he's taking prize money and a spot away from others who would have been a bad season away from selling shoes and jumpers. 

If there's a similar incident again (which their probably will be) and suddenly a few big names of the Rory, JT, Koepka variety (all of whom like to have an opinion on things) voice concerns about him being in tournaments, then I could see the tour taking a different view on things.


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## Grant85 (Jan 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Any examples of what happens when a pro admits to cheating as he subsequently felt very guilty about doing so and asks to be forgiven? Whether he was caught doing so or not I'm not sure matters if you admit it - but how was that admission received - how _would _it be received?
		
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Scott Stallings admitted taking a performance enhancing drug, something that was fairly trivial and only became known about because he admitted it after seeing a banned substance list. Something he took for a medical condition, but crucially without prior permission. 

Banned for 3 months!

Meanwhile, Reed gets to say his movement of sand was accidental... wins probably close to $1 Million dollars at the Hero and in Hawaii.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 7, 2020)

Dan2501 said:



			Reed's going to get the shouts all year, and rightly so. He's a cheat, got away with a far too lenient penalty and was even applauded by the PGA Tour for "being a gentleman", it's embarrassing. He's going to get absolutely nailed in Phoenix, and it's going to be hilarious.
		
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Hilarious? Going to your work place to be abused is hilarious? I find it very sad.

As for the phoenix that tournament should be banned. It's an embarrassment to golf.


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## Dan2501 (Jan 7, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Hilarious? Going to your work place to be abused is hilarious? I find it very sad.

As for the phoenix that tournament should be banned. It's an embarrassment to golf.
		
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Hardly comparable to going to work at a normal workplace is it, how often do you have paying spectators watching you work? He's a sportsman, he works in the entertainment business, and he's a cheat and a widely disliked character due to his own actions, he deserves everything he gets. Gets no sympathy from me. I wouldn't pay to go and shout abuse at him personally, but if he cops a ton of abuse at Phoenix then it will be funny, and deserved.

I also disagree RE: Phoenix. Wouldn't like it more than once a year, but I enjoy the spectacle every season, makes the wrap around PGA Tour season much more interesting, and majority of the players seem to enjoy it, otherwise they'd stop going there.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 7, 2020)

A professional athlete, therefore its his workplace.

No person should go to their work to be abused. It's extremely sad that people think they can hurl whatever insults they like from the "safety" of a packed crowd. 

As for Phoenix, it's a cringe worthy embarrassment to golf. Drunken louts shouting and chanting and whooping is not golf. There is no place for it in a professional tournament. Of course that is just my personal opinion and you are welcome to yours.

👍🏌️


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## Swango1980 (Jan 7, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Hilarious? Going to your work place to be abused is hilarious? I find it very sad.

As for the phoenix that tournament should be banned. It's an embarrassment to golf.
		
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Well, maybe the authorities should ban all spectators from all sporting events, just in case there might be a bit of heckling? Working in the entertainment industry cannot be compared to, say, working in an office.


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## Beezerk (Jan 7, 2020)

Did anyone see his shenanigans in the rough at Hawaii over the weekend? Again it just didn't sit right. He just happened to spot his ball move deep in the rough after someone moved it while searching. Marked it, replaced and got himself a much improved lie.
All within the rules I guess but how could he have seen his ball move when it was so embedded in the rough as he said it was. The TV footage cut away at the time and all we saw was his lifting his ball out of the rough and then replacing it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 7, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			Scott Stallings admitted taking a performance enhancing drug, something that was fairly trivial and only became known about because he admitted it after seeing a banned substance list. Something he took for a medical condition, but crucially without prior permission.

Banned for 3 months!

Meanwhile, Reed gets to say his movement of sand was accidental... wins probably close to $1 Million dollars at the Hero and in Hawaii.
		
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Hmmm.  I'm just wondering whether or not Reed might - even now - be better off just admitting it (if he did cheat) - take whatever flak and penalty comes his way - but as a starter clears his conscience and asks for forgiveness.  In the eyes of some at least admitting the error of your ways is a good start to being forgiven.  Because at the moment he is standing there being shot at - and that may continue for quite some long time - and that feels a worse penalty than anything he might get for admitting cheating.


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## Beezerk (Jan 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hmmm.  I'm just wondering whether or not Reed might - even now - be better off just admitting it (if he did cheat) - take whatever flak and penalty comes his way - but as a starter clears his conscience and asks for forgiveness.  In the eyes of some at least admitting the error of your ways is a good start to being forgiven.  Because at the moment he is standing there being shot at - and that may continue for quite some long time - and that feels a worse penalty than anything he might get for admitting cheating.
		
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A proper Oprah type interview, fake tears and the lot 🤣


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## Grant85 (Jan 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Hmmm.  I'm just wondering whether or not Reed might - even now - be better off just admitting it (if he did cheat) - take whatever flak and penalty comes his way - but as a starter clears his conscience and asks for forgiveness.  In the eyes of some at least admitting the error of your ways is a good start to being forgiven.  Because at the moment he is standing there being shot at - and that may continue for quite some long time - and that feels a worse penalty than anything he might get for admitting cheating.
		
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Possibly he would, but I don't see him doing that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 7, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			Possibly he would, but I don't see him doing that.
		
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Just thinking that this might not be such a daft route to go as many of the American pros are Christians of one sort or another...and so may be willing to forgive him his transgressions.

But then again Reed might not give a monkeys...


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## Slab (Jan 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just thinking that this might not be such a daft route to go as many of the American pros are Christians of one sort or another...and so may be willing to forgive him his transgressions.

But then again Reed might not give a monkeys...
		
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Or, shock of all horrors... He just might have been telling the truth when he said he believed the sand he moved was far enough away from his lie so that to him it didn't constitute an improvement


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## Swango1980 (Jan 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			Or, shock of all horrors... He just might have been telling the truth when he said he believed the sand he moved was far enough away from his lie so that to him it didn't constitute an improvement
		
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That would be a shocking assessment. I'm 95% certain he cheated, and if that is good enough in the Rules of Golf in terms of claiming a ball is lost in a penalty area, it is good enough for me to judge him as a cheat


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			Or, shock of all horrors... He just might have been telling the truth when he said he believed the sand he moved was far enough away from his lie so that to him it didn't constitute an improvement
		
Click to expand...

Are you really saying that one of the top golfers in the world who practices for hours and hours in bunkers/ waste areas / practice grounds ,ranges could accidentally have caught the sand on their backswing TWICE.

Any decent golfer never mind a pro would not do that ,or try that excuse!


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## Slab (Jan 7, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Are you really saying that one of the top golfers in the world who practices for hours and hours in bunkers/ waste areas / practice grounds ,ranges could accidentally have caught the sand on their backswing TWICE.

Any decent golfer never mind a pro would not do that ,or try that excuse!
		
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I could be wrong but I don't recall him saying it was accidental
Grounding the club in a bunker and therfore moving sand, is not against the rules


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			I could be wrong but I don't recall him saying it was accidental
Grounding the club in a bunker and therfore moving sand, is not against the rules
		
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He didn’t that’s my point he did it deliberately that’s cheating.
Yes it is???? In a bunker.
He was in a waste area!


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## Jacko_G (Jan 7, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			That would be a shocking assessment. I'm 95% certain he cheated, and if that is good enough in the Rules of Golf in terms of claiming a ball is lost in a penalty area, it is good enough for me to judge him as a cheat 

Click to expand...

Unfortunately 95% certain isn't enough you need to be 100%.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 7, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			He didn’t that’s my point he did it deliberately that’s cheating.
Yes it is???? In a bunker.
He was in a waste area!
		
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Grounding your club in a waste area is also not an offence.


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## Slab (Jan 7, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			He didn’t that’s my point he did it deliberately that’s cheating.
Yes it is???? In a bunker.
He was in a waste area!
		
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You sure about that bunker thing?


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 7, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Grounding your club in a waste area is also not an offence.
		
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Where did I say it was.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			You sure about that bunker thing?
		
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Yes.
You can’t ground your club in a bunker and you can’t touch the sand on your backswing.!


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## Swango1980 (Jan 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			You sure about that bunker thing?
		
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Why, do you think you can ground your club in a bunker?


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## Crow (Jan 7, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Just seen it from another angle, the camera does make his scoop look closer than it is, still at it back it's not as close as it first seems.
		
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Does anyone have a link to this other angle, I've only seen the dodgy view.


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## Slab (Jan 7, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Why, do you think you can ground your club in a bunker?
		
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Not just me.... 

Under Rules 12.2a and 12.2b, the player is allowed to touch or move loose impediments in a bunker and is generally allowed to touch the sand with a hand or club; but a limited prohibition continues so that the player must not:

Deliberately touch the sand in a bunker with a hand, club, rake or other object to test the condition of the sand to learn information for the stroke, or
Touch the sand in a bunker with a club in making a practice swing, in grounding the club right in front of or behind the ball, or in making the backswing for a stroke.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 7, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Where did I say it was.
		
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That my friend is your problem right there. He has given the authorities his view on it, they have accepted it. Reed believed that he was far enough back from the ball for it not to be an issue. The authorities have accepted this, hit him with a two shot penalty - they have decided not to accept it was a deliberate attempt to cheat. 

You don't have to accept it or like it but that is what the ruling bodies have decided.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			Not just me....

Under Rules 12.2a and 12.2b, the player is allowed to touch or move loose impediments in a bunker and is generally allowed to touch the sand with a hand or club; but a limited prohibition continues so that the player must not:

Deliberately touch the sand in a bunker with a hand, club, rake or other object to test the condition of the sand to learn information for the stroke, or
Touch the sand in a bunker with a club in making a practice swing, in grounding the club right in front of or behind the ball, or in making the backswing for a stroke.


Click to expand...

So, in the second bullet point, you agree that you can't ground your club behind the ball before your shot?


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## Slab (Jan 7, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			So, in the second bullet point, you agree that you can't ground your club behind the ball before your shot?
		
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 Sure but that's not what I wrote... And I think you realise that now


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 7, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			That my friend is your problem right there. He has given the authorities his view on it, they have accepted it. Reed believed that he was far enough back from the ball for it not to be an issue. The authorities have accepted this, hit him with a two shot penalty - they have decided not to accept it was a deliberate attempt to cheat.

You don't have to accept it or like it but that is what the ruling bodies have decided.
		
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You are correct.
I don’t like it.
The ruling bodies bottled it and that’s what the crowds don’t like .
Because like me they think it was deliberate.
Just mine and their opinion.

But you never answered my question “ where did I say you can’t ground your club in a waste area”?


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## Swango1980 (Jan 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			Sure but that's not what I wrote... And I think you realise that now
		
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This is what you said:

"Grounding the club in a bunker and therfore moving sand, is not against the rules"

Now, you can try and slime your way out of it by then throwing caveats afterwards. However, if you were to make a statement like this to a golfer who was relying on your advice (i.e. they were none the wiser), I can guarantee they'd take your comment as meaning that they could ground their club behind the ball before they play their shot. So, either you were unaware of the rule yourself when you made this statement and are now trying to back out of it now you've read it, or you're trying to wind people up?


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## Slab (Jan 7, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			This is what you said:

"Grounding the club in a bunker and therfore moving sand, is not against the rules"

Now, you can try and slime your way out of it by then throwing caveats afterwards. However, if you were to make a statement like this to a golfer who was relying on your advice (i.e. they were none the wiser), I can guarantee they'd take your comment as meaning that they could ground their club behind the ball before they play their shot. So, either you were unaware of the rule yourself when you made this statement and are now trying to back out of it now you've read it, or you're trying to wind people up?
		
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Or... I knew the rule (including the prohibition) and thought others did too so I don't really need to list it in its entirity

Edit, in fact if you care to go back my posts to last feb/Mar I'm sure I posted that I actually did ground my club in a bunker not in breach of the new rule


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			Sure but that's not what I wrote... And I think you realise that now
		
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You can move loose impediments or lean on your club for balance.
But “grounding your club “ means a very different thing to me!


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## Jacko_G (Jan 7, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			You are correct.
I don’t like it.
The ruling bodies bottled it and that’s what the crowds don’t like .
Because like me they think it was deliberate.
Just mine and their opinion.

But you never answered my question “ where did I say you can’t ground your club in a waste area”?
		
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Well stop referring to bunkers.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 7, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Well stop referring to bunkers.
		
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So you can’t show me just say so.


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## Slab (Jan 7, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			You can move loose impediments or lean on your club for balance.
But “grounding your club “ means a very different thing to me!
		
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What it means to you is not my responsibility, I go by what is written in the rule


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## Swango1980 (Jan 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			Or... I knew the rule (including the prohibition) and thought others did too so I don't really need to list it in its entirity

Edit, in fact if you care to go back my posts to last feb/Mar I'm sure I posted that I actually did ground my club in a bunker not in breach of the new rule
		
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I don't trawl back to look at each and every post made by a poster when questioning something they've said. Bit unrealistic that. I don't even know why you are talking about bunkers in reference to the Patric Reed incident anyway, I don't think anyone just prior to that had specifically said he was playing out of a bunker?


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## Swango1980 (Jan 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			What it means to you is not my responsibility, I go by what is written in the rule
		
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Where does it use the words in the Rule that you can "ground" your club. And I mean using those specific words, not your own interpretation of how you wish to word them. After all, you go by what is written in the rule.


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## Slab (Jan 7, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I don't trawl back to look at each and every post made by a poster when questioning something they've said. Bit unrealistic that. I don't even know why you are talking about bunkers in reference to the Patric Reed incident anyway, I don't think anyone just prior to that had specifically said he was playing out of a bunker?
		
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Hey its you who thinks I was trying to slime out of something
And clubchamp98 mentioned him spending hours playing out of bunkers and waste areas in post 292 

Not sure what more you need


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## Slab (Jan 7, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Where does it use the words in the Rule that you can "ground" your club. And I mean using those specific words, not your own interpretation of how you wish to word them. After all, you go by what is written in the rule.
		
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Maybe I am mistaken
What do you call it when your club touches the ground


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			What it means to you is not my responsibility, I go by what is written in the rule
		
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Is grounding your club in the rule?
Apart from not doing it before your stroke.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			Hey its you who thinks I was trying to slime out of something
And clubchamp98 mentioned him spending hours playing out of bunkers and waste areas in post 292 

Not sure what more you need
		
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Clubchamp did, but only in context to whether he did or didn't realise he'd touched the sand. Nothing to do about the rules in bunkers versus waste areas, so your response was not relevant.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			Hey its you who thinks I was trying to slime out of something
And clubchamp98 mentioned him spending hours playing out of bunkers and waste areas in post 292

Not sure what more you need
		
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I did mention it but only to highlight that he is very good out of them both .
Being a elite golfer he knows the difference


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 7, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			You can move loose impediments or lean on your club for balance.
But “grounding your club “ means a very different thing to me!
		
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What it means to you is of no concern. What is important is the rule as stated.
See post 302. 
If you read it as written it does not state the rule exactly as you say it means to you.
,
The question is   -
whether Reed was testing the condition of the sands to learn information for the stroke, (first bullet), OR
whether he touched the sand with his club *right* behind or in front....etc.( second bullet)
The common camera view suggests he was *right *behind...
But Reed suggests differently, and it has been suggested in these posts that there is another camera view( somewhere) backing up that suggestion.
T'would be enlightening to see that alternate view, if it exists.
As for the first bullet definition, "testing the condition.....etc",: that is not relevant in that his shot was going to be a "hit ball first as if on the fairway", as opposed to a green side bunker type shot where the sand is deliberatedly hit first..
Conclusion..?  If he wasn't *right *behind the ball then he wasn't cheating, indeed he could be said to be within the rule.
I can well see that if he had a lawyer arguing his case, he may not have even had a penalty ( if that alternate camera view existed😳)


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 7, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			What it means to you is of no concern. What is important is the rule as stated.
See post 302.
If you read it as written it does not state the rule exactly as you say it means to you.
,
The question is   -
whether Reed was testing the condition of the sands to learn information for the stroke, (first bullet), OR
whether he touched the sand with his club *right* behind or in front....etc.( second bullet)
The common camera view suggests he was *right *behind...
But Reed suggests differently, and it has been suggested in these posts that there is another camera view( somewhere) backing up that suggestion.
T'would be enlightening to see that alternate view, if it exists.
As for the first bullet definition, "testing the condition.....etc",: that is not relevant in that his shot was going to be a "hit ball first as if on the fairway", as opposed to a green side bunker type shot where the sand is deliberatedly hit first..
Conclusion..?  If he wasn't *right *behind the ball then he wasn't cheating, indeed he could be said to be within the rule.
I can well see that if he had a lawyer arguing his case, he may not have even had a penalty ( if that alternate camera view existed😳)
		
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Post 302 is about a bunker not a waste area.!
He had no chance of ball first in the lie he had and he knew it!
That’s why the cameras moved in on it to show how bad the lie was.
That’s when the commentators questioned his actions.
That’s why he removed the sand TWICE behind the ball with a practice takeaway.
Wonder why he didn’t contest the penalty.
Maybe because he knew he got off lightly!


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 7, 2020)

Slab said:



			What it means to you is not my responsibility, I go by what is written in the rule
		
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It quite clearly says you can’t ground your club in front or behind the ball.
Do you consider flicking a loose impediment with your club grounding it?


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## Parsaregood (Jan 7, 2020)

If you look at the footage you can see how bad the lie is originally. he then proceeded to take two  'practice' swings from two different angles away from the ball removing all the sand which could get inbetween club and ball. I'm sorry but the way he takes the different angles away from the ball makes me certain this was a deliberate act on his part, he also has a chequered past with incidents regarding his integrity. I dont buy his story, he should have been suspended from the tour IMO. I'm sure he will be caught up in the rules again at some point like he always is. If you do things like this in the public eye dont be surprised when you get a bit of flak, and if you cant take the heat get out of the kitchen


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 7, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			Post 302 is about a bunker not a waste area.!
He had no chance of ball first in the lie he had and he knew it!
That’s why the cameras moved in on it to show how bad the lie was.
That’s when the commentators questioned his actions.
That’s why he removed the sand TWICE behind the ball with a practice takeaway.
Wonder why he didn’t contest the penalty.
Maybe because he knew he got off lightly!
		
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I have looked at rule 12.1 , which defines a bunker , and that seems to include  what we are calling a waste area. An area where sand would normally be.
However, further reading of rule 12 and in it , the reference to rule 8.1(a)4 ,it seems to me in view of that, that Reed has a real difficulty in escaping a general penalty. Unless he can show that he was so far away from the ball as to be not "removing sand(or soil)* to improve the conditions affecting the stroke.*
I wouldn't want to be his  lawyer on a 'no win no fee 'basis😀


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## Slab (Jan 8, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Clubchamp did, but only in context to whether he did or didn't realise he'd touched the sand. Nothing to do about the rules in bunkers versus waste areas, so your response was not relevant.
		
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Even though almost every thread diverges to discuss related points, If my post was truly not relevant why did you then ask me if I believed I could ground my club in a bunker?
Make your mind up

I'm typing on a phone here I don't have the time to expand every post to include every scrap of info

You can ground your club in a bunker as long as it does not contravene the additional points expand on in the rule

I knew this, it now seems some did not


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## Swango1980 (Jan 8, 2020)

Slab said:



			Even though almost every thread diverges to discuss related points, If my post was truly not relevant why did you then ask me if I believed I could ground my club in a bunker?
Make your mind up

I'm typing on a phone here I don't have the time to expand every post to include every scrap of info

You can ground your club in a bunker as long as it does not contravene the additional points expand on in the rule

I knew this, it now seems some did not
		
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I asked you, because I was responding directly to your poorly worded sentence. Why was it poorly worded? Because  you ask any golfer to try and define "grounding club" they will almost certainly respond that it's placing the club head on the ground behind the ball when addressing the ball. We know that cannot be done in a bunker, and the rule does not use the word ground or grounded when saying what can be done when touching the sand with club head.

In terms of what most consider as "grounded", the rules are clear this cannot be done in a bunker, which completely contradicts your statement. This is why I asked for clarification.

By continuing to suggest you can ground your club in bunker is silly, especially when you say you got this directly from the rules. You didn't. You read the rule, then used your own words to poorly represent it.

Anyway, back to topic. Patrick Reed was able to ground his club in a waste area, but it seemed very surprising he didn't notice he was moving layers of sand behind ball, especially considering he has played out of many sandy lies thousands of times before. Plenty of circumstantial evidence he cheated. But, I guess to some, he must never ge labelled a cheat unless he comes out and admits it. How very convenient if that was the case for him. As long as he never admits any wrongdoing, he can be as devious as he wishes.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 8, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I have looked at rule 12.1 , which defines a bunker , and that seems to include  what we are calling a waste area. An area where sand would normally be.
However, further reading of rule 12 and in it , the reference to rule 8.1(a)4 ,it seems to me in view of that, that Reed has a real difficulty in escaping a general penalty. Unless he can show that he was so far away from the ball as to be not "removing sand(or soil)* to improve the conditions affecting the stroke.*
I wouldn't want to be his  lawyer on a 'no win no fee 'basis😀
		
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A waste area and bunker are totally different .
In a waste area you can ground your club and have a practice swing hitting the sand as long as it dosnt improve your lie.
He improved his lie imo delibaretly.
I call that cheating some think it’s not.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 8, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			A waste area and bunker are totally different .
In a waste area you can ground your club and have a practice swing hitting the sand as long as it dosnt improve your lie.
He improved his lie imo delibaretly.
I call that cheating some think it’s not.
		
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My post suggests he broke the rule, i.e. Improved the conditions affecting the stroke. I am not saying he did not break a rule. I am saying that unless the elusive side view shows he was so far away from the ball as to make his movements not"improving the conditions affecting the stroke", then it is right to impose a general penalty.
As to the definition of a waste area, please direct me in the rules to its definition, different from Rule 12(1)
Where Reed played from was not a green side bunker, but it was IMO *"an area where sand would normally be"  *And that is part of the definition of a bunker ,for purposes of the rules concerning bunkers.Rule 12 (1)
Are you saying that where Reed played from was not (on that golf course) "an area where sand would normally be"?


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## Swango1980 (Jan 8, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			My post suggests he broke the rule, i.e. Improved the conditions affecting the stroke. I am not saying he did not break a rule. I am saying that unless the elusive side view shows he was so far away from the ball as to make his movements not"improving the conditions affecting the stroke", then it is right to impose a general penalty.
As to the definition of a waste area, please direct me in the rules to its definition, different from Rule 12(1)
Where Reed played from was not a green side bunker, but it was IMO *"an area where sand would normally be"  *And that is part of the definition of a bunker ,for purposes of the rules concerning bunkers.Rule 12 (1)
Are you saying that where Reed played from was not (on that golf course) "an area where sand would normally be"?
		
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A waste area and bunker are not the same. I believe the club set out in the local rules what is a bunker and what is a waste area. Reed was in a waste area, not a bunker. So, he could technically ground his club behind ball, but not improve his lie.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 8, 2020)

PS. In terms of the defined areas of a course in the 2019 rules, a waste area would be part of the General Area, rather than being defined in it's own right as a waste area.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 8, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			My post suggests he broke the rule, i.e. Improved the conditions affecting the stroke. I am not saying he did not break a rule. I am saying that unless the elusive side view shows he was so far away from the ball as to make his movements not"improving the conditions affecting the stroke", then it is right to impose a general penalty.
As to the definition of a waste area, please direct me in the rules to its definition, different from Rule 12(1)
Where Reed played from was not a green side bunker, but it was IMO *"an area where sand would normally be"  *And that is part of the definition of a bunker ,for purposes of the rules concerning bunkers.Rule 12 (1)
Are you saying that where Reed played from was not (on that golf course) "an area where sand would normally be"?
		
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A waste area is normally just a run off area for excess water.
Used mainly in places that have severe downpours they collect the water then it drains from them over time.
I have played from waste areas containing sand, shells, soil/ mud, grass.
Courses use course sand just to make it look better .
They are just areas in the general course.
But they don’t have the restrictions a bunker has. 
They are just like the rest of the course where you can’t improve your lie or intended line of your swing.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 8, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			PS. In terms of the defined areas of a course in the 2019 rules, a waste area would be part of the General Area, rather than being defined in it's own right as a waste area.
		
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Well, this is interesting. I am not an expert on rules of golf, but I can read rules as such, when written in law type language.
I will accept the view of golf rules experts, however the area I saw Reed in certainly seemed an "area where sand would normally be "
(I mean, that much sand did not just blow there by nature😀)
 And therefore comes within the definition in rule 12(1). 
So, this brings in the question as to who says what is a bunker and what is a waste area.?
is it the golf Club in each case? Is it the R&A rule alone, I.e on the same basis that " if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck etc " 😀, regardless as to what the Club might want to call it ?
Whatever!
I would have thought that the R&A would ( should) have defined what a "waste area " is, if it is mentioned in the Rules. I think in view of what you say above and the fact that I can't readily find it in the Rules, that there is no 
"waste area"  as such, but is merely a vernacular term ?
If that's the case, then (in Reeds case) are we merely talking about him improving his lie (or not ) in the general area?
If so, we are back to the elusive side view, are we not? 
If he's far enough back, he's in the clear.
But the down line view doesn't support that, I must say.


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## clubchamp98 (Jan 8, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well, this is interesting. I am not an expert on rules of golf, but I can read rules as such, when written in law type language.
I will accept the view of golf rules experts, however the area I saw Reed in certainly seemed an "area where sand would normally be "
(I mean, that much sand did not just blow there by nature😀)
And therefore comes within the definition in rule 12(1).
So, this brings in the question as to who says what is a bunker and what is a waste area.?
is it the golf Club in each case? Is it the R&A rule alone, I.e on the same basis that " if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck etc " 😀, regardless as to what the Club might want to call it ?
Whatever!
I would have thought that the R&A would ( should) have defined what a "waste area " is, if it is mentioned in the Rules. I think in view of what you say above and the fact that I can't readily find it in the Rules, that there is no
"waste area"  as such, but is merely a vernacular term ?
If that's the case, then (in Reeds case) are we merely talking about him improving his lie (or not ) in the general area?
If so, we are back to the elusive side view, are we not?
If he's far enough back, he's in the clear.
But the down line view doesn't support that, I must say.
		
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We are talking in the general area but you don’t seem to belive us.

remember the USPGA championship  where Dustin Johnson was penalised for grounding his club in a bunker.
It cost him the win.
Whistling Straights has lots of waste areas all over the course.
But the rules of the tournament was all sandy areas were deemed bunkers in the tournament.
The players were told this before the start so I assume it’s the tournament committee/USGA.
That was very harsh considering where he was, but he was told.
I am assuming Reed and other players identify these during practice.
As most top pros don’t leave anything to chance.
They are given a hard card of local rules ,and are made aware of anything unusual.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 8, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well, this is interesting. I am not an expert on rules of golf, but I can read rules as such, when written in law type language.
I will accept the view of golf rules experts, however the area I saw Reed in certainly seemed an "area where sand would normally be "
(I mean, that much sand did not just blow there by nature😀)
 And therefore comes within the definition in rule 12(1). 
So, this brings in the question as to who says what is a bunker and what is a waste area.?
is it the golf Club in each case? Is it the R&A rule alone, I.e on the same basis that " if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck etc " 😀, regardless as to what the Club might want to call it ?
Whatever!
I would have thought that the R&A would ( should) have defined what a "waste area " is, if it is mentioned in the Rules. I think in view of what you say above and the fact that I can't readily find it in the Rules, that there is no 
"waste area"  as such, but is merely a vernacular term ?
If that's the case, then (in Reeds case) are we merely talking about him improving his lie (or not ) in the general area?
If so, we are back to the elusive side view, are we not? 
If he's far enough back, he's in the clear.
But the down line view doesn't support that, I must say.
		
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You will find exactly what you're looking for if you go to rules and look at the definition of bunker (click on the highlighted word bunker). It is here where it actually used the word waste areas when explaining how a Committee may treat sandy areas. I'd copy it here but can't on my phone.

So, he was penalised for improving his lie, not grounding his club.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 8, 2020)

Another PS. A bunker is usually a prepared area filled with sand. So, natural desert would not be classed as a bunker normally. However, a Committee can class a prepared area of sand as part of the General Area, or an unprepared area of sand as a bunker. 

It is probably not much of a concern for most of us here, unless you play on the coast? But, a few of those American courses are is desert areas and so I guess it is more relevant there.


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## drdel (Jan 8, 2020)

The way I see it is everywhere within the course boundaries is a general area except those defined and marked as Penalty areas (bunkers, water etc) and Tees or Greens plus locally defined exceptions. Add to this the overarching rule that you must not improve your lie?


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## Slab (Jan 9, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



*I asked you, because I was responding directly to your poorly worded sentence. Why was it poorly worded? Because  you ask any golfer to try and define "grounding club" they will almost certainly respond that it's placing the club head on the ground behind the ball when addressing the ball.* We know that cannot be done in a bunker, and the rule does not use the word ground or grounded when saying what can be done when touching the sand with club head.

In terms of what most consider as "grounded", the rules are clear this cannot be done in a bunker, which completely contradicts your statement. This is why I asked for clarification.

By continuing to suggest you can ground your club in bunker is silly, especially when you say you got this directly from the rules. You didn't. You read the rule, then used your own words to poorly represent it.
.
		
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This gives the insight into why the way my post was worded may well have allowed you to jump to the wrong conclusion (rather than just read what was written) sorry

Prior to the rule change I always treated every part of a bunker or hazard equally in respecting that I cannot touch the ground with my club _(ground the club or grounding)_ regardless of where the ball was in the bunker/hazard. So whether I was waiting to play & just holding a club, taking practice air-swings or addressing the ball etc it was the same rule at all times that was in effect while I was in he bunker/hazard regardless of how far I was from the ball

I never assumed that grounding was _'almost certainly'_ going to take place at address or it was somehow more important for me to not ground the club three inches from the ball than it would be for me not to ground my club three yards from the ball, the old penalty was the same in both cases
If I'd assumed that 'gounding' the club really only takes place at the ball (as you state _any golfer_ believes) I may have concentrated less when I was three yards from the ball & might even absentmindedly ground my club
(not a problem these days though since you _can _ground your club in a bunker )


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## Swango1980 (Jan 9, 2020)

I



Slab said:



			This gives the insight into why the way my post was worded may well have allowed you to jump to the wrong conclusion (rather than just read what was written) sorry

Prior to the rule change I always treated every part of a bunker or hazard equally in respecting that I cannot touch the ground with my club _(ground the club or grounding)_ regardless of where the ball was in the bunker/hazard. So whether I was waiting to play & just holding a club, taking practice air-swings or addressing the ball etc it was the same rule at all times that was in effect while I was in he bunker/hazard regardless of how far I was from the ball

I never assumed that grounding was _'almost certainly'_ going to take place at address or it was somehow more important for me to not ground the club three inches from the ball than it would be for me not to ground my club three yards from the ball, the old penalty was the same in both cases
If I'd assumed that 'gounding' the club really only takes place at the ball (as you state _any golfer_ believes) I may have concentrated less when I was three yards from the ball & might even absentmindedly ground my club
(not a problem these days though since you _can _ground your club in a bunker )
		
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In the old days you could also "ground" your club as you put it then, in a bunker. For example, to stop you from falling over.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 9, 2020)

drdel said:



			The way I see it is everywhere within the course boundaries is a general area except those defined and marked as Penalty areas (bunkers, water etc) and Tees or Greens plus locally defined exceptions. Add to this the overarching rule that you must not improve your lie?
		
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Bunkers are bunkers, not penalty areas


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## Jacko_G (Jan 9, 2020)

I see we're still going round in circles.

2 shot penalty was given. move on please.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 9, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I see we're still going round in circles.

2 shot penalty was given. move on please.
		
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We all moved on as soon as penalty was given. Moved on to discussing whether we felt it was correct and whether we think he did it intentionally and therefore cheated.

That's what happens in forums. if you can't accept that, I guess you should move on.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jan 9, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			You will find exactly what you're looking for if you go to rules and look at the definition of bunker (click on the highlighted word bunker). It is here where it actually used the word waste areas when explaining how a Committee may treat sandy areas. I'd copy it here but can't on my phone.

So, he was penalised for improving his lie, not grounding his club.
		
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Thank you. Did as you suggest, and I am now clear on waste area etc.
It is decided by committee.
Now that we are on the same hymn sheet😀....
I appreciate he was penalised for improving his lie. As I was suggesting, the down line view supports that. Someone has stated that there is a side on view somewhere (though it seems elusive ) that would show his club was touching the sand  so far away from his ball that it wouldn't amount to an improvement of his lie.🙄
Has anyone seen this view?


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## Swango1980 (Jan 9, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Thank you. Did as you suggest, and I am now clear on waste area etc.
It is decided by committee.
Now that we are on the same hymn sheet😀....
I appreciate he was penalised for improving his lie. As I was suggesting, the down line view supports that. Someone has stated that there is a side on view somewhere (though it seems elusive ) that would show his club was touching the sand  so far away from his ball that it wouldn't amount to an improvement of his lie.🙄
Has anyone seen this view?
		
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I've not seen that view, and perhaps it may clarify Reed's argument? Not even sure it exists, I think it was just that Reed suggested that if the view DID exist, it would back up his claim that he felt it was far enough away from the ball.

However, I'm picturing myself taking my normal stance at a ball, like he did, and then having a few waggles. I cannot see how my club can touch the sand so far away from the ball as to not make me feel like I'm uncomfortably stretching out well behind the ball? It would also seem an unusual thing for him to do when getting into his routine. The sand pretty much moved as soon as he started bringing the club head back, so his starting point would have had to be well behind the ball which I just don't see as a credible argument. 

The 2 shot penalty was given for improving his lie. That doesn't mean that he didn't intentionally do it (and therefore cheat), it just means that they can't prove and were reluctant to judge that he intentionally cheated. However, if I had to choose 1 incident over the last 10-15 years (that I've watched golf) in which I had to decide a professional golfer cheated, I'd choose this one as the most likely and I think others would be in the same boat. Of course, I've not seen them all, I know Dyson got a suspended ban for touching line of the putt, even though he denied he was flattening a spike mark. Maybe this was given because he still should have known, at the time, he couldn't press down on his line of putt. Although, I seem to remember McIlroy brushing away sand from the fringe and just getting the standard penalty (even though you'd think he ought to have known he couldn't do that either, although he did admit to having an unforgivable moment of forgetfulness).

Ultimately, I guess it depends on who is on the Committee for that event and perhaps what Tour it is. I also think others have a point that, officials will be more reluctant to implement strong sanctions on higher profile players given the importance of sponsorship at each event (although, some sponsors may be reluctant to put too much money into an event that includes cheats and slow players?).

We'll never know, but what if a player like Simon Dyson did what Patrick Reed did at that event, Would he have been treated the same? Or, what if Reed did what he did on the European Tour? Harder to know that one especially. On one hand we like to think of the European Tour as stricter on players (maybe), but on the other hand they get a lot of good publicity when high profile PGA Tour players come over and play European Tour events.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 19, 2020)

My goodness dear old Patrick is really getting it again from all angles!

Even Brooks has called him out as being a cheat! A TV presenter claims he caught him improving his lie on several occasions yet only now speaks out!!

Wow. 

I'm now thinking this really could be the beginning of the end of Reed. How does he respond or even come back from this?

Answers on a postcard!


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## inc0gnito (Feb 19, 2020)

You talking about Peter Kostis on the No Laying Up podcast? 

He was very clear about Reed cheating. He even mentioned the videos were on YouTube. Wouldn’t mind seeing them. 

Tour won’t do anything though.


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## Parsaregood (Feb 19, 2020)

Not really sure this can be swept under the carpet, the tour are going to be asked about. Patrick is certainly going to be asked about it, what's he going to say ? I didn't do it, but then you have to ask yourself why is there multiple sources all accusing him of it. I think it tells everyone what they need to know


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## Slab (Feb 20, 2020)

Not listened to it just read an article but it only mentions the old trick of 'placing club behind the ball several times in the rough letting the weight come down to flatten the grass a bit' 

However wrong, there's loads of them on tour do it, you see it so often and I'll wager it happens at club comps every single week all round the country (none of which makes it any more right, just that this far far from a Reed centric issue)


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## Swango1980 (Feb 20, 2020)

Brooks did say he's seen several golfers improve their lie in rough, so not just Patrick. But yes, it definitely puts Reed massively in spot light again. Any time he is in rough, no doubt cameras will be zooming in to get a before and after shot of his lie.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 20, 2020)

Interesting to see if the tour try and shut "one of their own" up in Koepka in the same way they did with the other guy that moaned. I do agree that Reed has forced himself into a corner and will be under intense pressure as will the tour if it ever happens again. I can't see how they'd be able to brush it under the carpet again


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## Imurg (Feb 20, 2020)

inc0gnito said:



			You talking about Peter Kostis on the No Laying Up podcast?

He was very clear about Reed cheating. He even mentioned the videos were on YouTube. Wouldn’t mind seeing them.

Tour won’t do anything though.
		
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As far as Reed's future on Tour, the Tour might not have to do much. 
If his sponsors decide that having Reed branded a cheat is harming their name then hell get dropped.
If more revelations appear then players may refuse to play with him.
There's so many ways this can end
I dont think I've ever wanted to be  Patrick Reed but I certainly wouldn't want to be him at the moment


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## Hobbit (Feb 20, 2020)

Using a club to flatten the grass in the rough has been going on for donkey's years, long before Reed did it. Tom Watson pulled Gary Player up for it.


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## Russ_D (Feb 20, 2020)

I think best thing for Reed would be to jump ship to Premier League Golf (or whatever they end up calling it). He may not be the most popular player but he's a big name. A controversial figure like Reed would get people talking about the breakaway tour. Could be a win-win for both parties.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 20, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Using a club to flatten the grass in the rough has been going on for donkey's years, long before Reed did it. Tom Watson pulled Gary Player up for it.
		
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Gary Player - now there is another can of worms with lots of alligators following him.


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## howbow88 (Feb 20, 2020)

This won't do anything to him. He's a really good golfer with a green jacket. I doubt that he likes taking all of this flak, but I also get the feeling that he's the kind of character that will not care about what people say about him. He doesn't talk to his family any more due to a disagreement - he's not going  to care about other golfers and people on the internet.


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## DaveR (Feb 20, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			This won't do anything to him. He's a really good golfer with a green jacket. I doubt that he likes taking all of this flak, but I also get the feeling that he's the kind of character that will not care about what people say about him. He doesn't talk to his family any more due to a disagreement - he's not going  to care about other golfers and people on the internet.
		
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I don't agree with that. I doubt he wants to go down in history as a cheat with all his achievements under scrutiny.


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## howbow88 (Feb 20, 2020)

Do you honestly think that he cares? From everything we see and hear about the guy, I don't think he gives a flying duck about the opinions of others.


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## Marshy77 (Feb 20, 2020)

I bet he's still not bothered


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## patricks148 (Feb 20, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			Do you honestly think that he cares? From everything we see and hear about the guy, I don't think he gives a fuck about the opinions of others.
		
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i bet he is, didn't like it in the Pres cup and no doubt won't if he ever gets picked in the Ryder cup again


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## Swango1980 (Feb 20, 2020)

He probably doesn't care too much. In fact, maybe he is like Trump and thrives a bit of bad publicity


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## pokerjoke (Feb 20, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			Do you honestly think that he cares? From everything we see and hear about the guy, I don't think he gives a fuck about the opinions of others.
		
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Read the rules at the top of the page regarding swearing


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## Marshy77 (Feb 20, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i bet he is, didn't like it in the Pres cup and no doubt won't if he ever gets picked in the Ryder cup again
		
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I don't think he will be bothered. Why would he want to spend time with the players that are calling him a cheat? He can do his own thing, he doesn't come across as being the most outgoing or a player that wants to interact with others, he's earnt a good wedge already on top of the millions he'll earn over the next 5/10 years, he has a green jacket
and can pretty decide when or if he wants to finish. 

People like Kostis coming out now saying he's been cheating for years - why not say something at the time?


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## patricks148 (Feb 20, 2020)

Marshy77 said:



			I don't think he will be bothered. Why would he want to spend time with the players that are calling him a cheat? He can do his own thing, he doesn't come across as being the most outgoing or a player that wants to interact with others, he's earnt a good wedge already on top of the millions he'll earn over the next 5/10 years, he has a green jacket
and can pretty decide when or if he wants to finish.

People like Kostis coming out now saying he's been cheating for years - why not say something at the time?
		
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see how he likes 1000 on the first tee chanting cheat


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## robinthehood (Feb 20, 2020)

I cant imagine hes the only golfer who's been doing what Kostis reckons.


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## USER1999 (Feb 20, 2020)

Marshy77 said:



			People like Kostis coming out now saying he's been cheating for years - why not say something at the time?
		
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Because he didn't want to lose his job?


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## DRW (Feb 20, 2020)

Marshy77 said:



			I don't think he will be bothered. Why would he want to spend time with the players that are calling him a cheat? He can do his own thing, he doesn't come across as being the most outgoing or a player that wants to interact with others, he's earnt a good wedge already on top of the millions he'll earn over the next 5/10 years, he has a green jacket
and can pretty decide when or if he wants to finish.

*People like Kostis coming out now saying he's been cheating for years - why not say something at the time*?
		
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Its human nature, just think of stuff like Jimmy Saville/Rolf Harris and why that didn't blow up much earlier. People hide or help hide such matters.

Many reasons why, the bigger question is, will this be the start of a bigger issue coming out or not and will it help to stop such matters in the future (bit like the Lexi moving the ball)


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## Marshy77 (Feb 20, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Because he didn't want to lose his job?
		
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He said there's video evidence to prove it. All he has to do is also comment on the videos at the time.


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## Marshy77 (Feb 20, 2020)

DRW said:



			Its human nature, just think of stuff like Jimmy Saville/Rolf Harris and why that didn't blow up much earlier. People hide or help hide such matters.

Many reasons why, the bigger question is, will this be the start of a bigger issue coming out or not and will it help to stop such matters in the future (bit like the Lexi moving the ball)
		
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That was totally different.

it possibly will but I still doubt Reed will be bothered.


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## howbow88 (Feb 20, 2020)

DRW said:



			Its human nature, just think of stuff like Jimmy Saville/Rolf Harris and why that didn't blow up much earlier. People hide or help hide such matters.
		
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Cheating at golf relatable to being a nonce?!


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## Marshy77 (Feb 20, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			see how he likes 1000 on the first tee chanting cheat

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He's shown in the past that things like that really don't bother him.


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## howbow88 (Feb 20, 2020)

It could even be argued that he does well off of it. No one wants him to win, and he uses that as fuel to help motivate himself.


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## patricks148 (Feb 20, 2020)

Marshy77 said:



			He's shown in the past that things like that really don't bother him.
		
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a bit of booing before, the aussies got into it and from the footage he didn't really like that. But shows the sort of person he is ... revels in being a cheat who's been caught a few times and even had to leave the Uni he was at


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## DRW (Feb 20, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			Cheating at golf relatable to being a nonce?!
		
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Er, nope why would I ever say or infer that.

I did however compare the underlining reasons why people don't/didnt say something before. A major difference in my eyes, to what you are trying to infer.

What I was saying is that one of the reasons could be human nature. people hide stuff, people help hide stuff, turn the other eye, don't want the grief so don't say anything etc. When extreme stuff like JS/RH happen, and people turn another eye to that kind of stuff, how can you expect a 'minor' matter such as cheating, not to be human nature.

I was giving a reason of why the person didn't say something before and an extreme example of such human nature to explain it. Wasn't comparing the underlining 'crimes', just the reasons.


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## DRW (Feb 20, 2020)

Marshy77 said:



			That was totally different.

it possibly will but I still doubt Reed will be bothered.
		
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I don't think it will affect him in the short term massively, unless the authorities do something.

If it continues, over say a year or more, I would expect it would grind on anyone and will affect Reed one way or another (financially with sponsors dropping off and performance on the golf course with heckling). But its a big if, if it continues for more than a year.


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## USER1999 (Feb 20, 2020)

Marshy77 said:



			He said there's video evidence to prove it. All he has to do is also comment on the videos at the time.
		
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And then get sacked. He worked for CBS, but the PGA tour call the tune. If they want him out, he is gone. In fact, that is why he isn't there anymore, but why go out of your way to get yourself sacked.

Contractually, even off air, anything he said that did not tow the CBS line, would be a disciplinary offence. Most jobs, even my crummy one, have this in the t and c.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 20, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			Cheating at golf relatable to being a nonce?!
		
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Interesting somebody uses an example to make a general point, and people choose to completely ignore the context of that point and infer that they are basically saying something completely different. For the record, when I read that post, at no point was I thinking that DRW was trying to say a cheating golfer was the same as sexually abusing children.

It is interesting though, that in this age of social media and general online forums, people have to be ridiculously careful what they say, because no matter how innocent it may be, there is usually somebody willing to completely twist the context to try and make that person out to be the most horrible person imaginable. 

Not really having a go howbow88, perhaps you were just having a bit of banter. But again, what starts as a bit of banter can snowball into something completely different.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 20, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			And then get sacked. He worked for CBS, but the PGA tour call the tune. If they want him out, he is gone. In fact, that is why he isn't there anymore, but why go out of your way to get yourself sacked.

Contractually, even off air, anything he said that did not tow the CBS line, would be a disciplinary offence. Most jobs, even my crummy one, have this in the t and c.
		
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I read the article by Kostis. He was advised by his bosses not to make controversial comments, I think the term was 'don't be the story'. He then has a flat out decision to make. Does he raise the issue, get cut off by the director 3 seconds into his description of what he sees, get the sack and never work in golf again, or does he leave the screen time quiet when we sees what is happening. You can see why he choose the latter option, as would most of us.


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## howbow88 (Feb 20, 2020)

People take stuff way too seriously on here. Chill guys.

Although it does remind me of when Hitler invaded Czecoslavakia.


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## pendodave (Feb 20, 2020)

This might be an unpopular thought, and I find PR's antics on the golf course as reprehensible as anyone, but there is an unpleasant smell of The Mob about this.
We have a very recent example of the terrible effects of large numbers of people piling into someone's behaviour. Will the world only be happy when PR self destructs? Admitably, he seems a mentally resilient character, but how do we know? I don't feel entirely comfortable with the way that this is all playing out.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 20, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			People take stuff way too seriously on here. Chill guys.

Although it does remind me of when Hitler invaded Czecoslavakia.
		
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I was thinking Poland 😁


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## Dan2501 (Feb 20, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1230191788423602176
Here's apparently one of the examples Kostis discussed. Have noticed Reed doing this in the past but thought nothing of it, but Kostis was saying from up close he's had lies in the rough that were wedge punch-outs that were turned into lies he could hit 3-wood from by doing this. Shocking stuff, and more evidence that Reed is a cheat. He got banned from competing at College for cheating, we've seen the bunker lie improving, and now hearing about this. Something _should _be done, but it won't, the PGA Tour will bury their head in the sand as they always do, claim Reed is a gentleman on a tour of gentlemen and move on.


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## USER1999 (Feb 20, 2020)

pendodave said:



			This might be an unpopular thought, and I find PR's antics on the golf course as reprehensible as anyone, but there is an unpleasant smell of The Mob about this.
We have a very recent example of the terrible effects of large numbers of people piling into someone's behaviour. Will the world only be happy when PR self destructs? Admitably, he seems a mentally resilient character, but how do we know? I don't feel entirely comfortable with the way that this is all playing out.
		
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Perhaps if he just stopped cheating it might all go away?


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## Marshy77 (Feb 20, 2020)

pendodave said:



			This might be an unpopular thought, and I find PR's antics on the golf course as reprehensible as anyone, but there is an unpleasant smell of The Mob about this.
We have a very recent example of the terrible effects of large numbers of people piling into someone's behaviour. Will the world only be happy when PR self destructs? Admitably, he seems a mentally resilient character, but how do we know? I don't feel entirely comfortable with the way that this is all playing out.
		
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I agree. it doesn't look like it's going away too and keeps getting brought up time and time again.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 20, 2020)

Dan2501 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1230191788423602176
Here's apparently one of the examples Kostis discussed. Have noticed Reed doing this in the past but thought nothing of it, but Kostis was saying from up close he's had lies in the rough that were wedge punch-outs that were turned into lies he could hit 3-wood from by doing this. Shocking stuff, and more evidence that Reed is a cheat. He got banned from competing at College for cheating, we've seen the bunker lie improving, and now hearing about this. Something _should _be done, but it won't, the PGA Tour will bury their head in the sand as they always do, claim Reed is a gentleman on a tour of gentlemen and move on.
		
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What's really interesting about this clip, is that the commentator DID call him out on it quite strongly, and explained the situation very accurately. YET, for whatever reason, the media never picked up on it and start debating it to the point it made headlines. You wonder why? I would have thought someone would have run with it to try and get some traction. Do you think the American mainstream golf broadcasters tried to ensure that this was NOT debated on their programs after mentioned to try and cover it up as best they can?


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## Jacko_G (Feb 20, 2020)

Clip shows nothing!

Kostis had an opinion about the original lie! Where is the evidence of the "original lie".


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## pendodave (Feb 20, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Perhaps if he just stopped cheating it might all go away?
		
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That's not the point. So someone has a character flaw - does this mean that driving them who knows where via mass media and social sites is acceptable? It's like some kind of virtual stoning.


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## Parsaregood (Feb 20, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Clip shows nothing!

Kostis had an opinion about the original lie! Where is the evidence of the "original lie".
		
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You seriously have to be asking the question, why would Peter Kostis make this up ? Then we have all the other incidents. Seriously you think hes not at it ? Give it a break, the bunker footage alone is damning enough


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## Parsaregood (Feb 20, 2020)

pendodave said:



			That's not the point. So someone has a character flaw - does this mean that driving them who knows where via mass media and social sites is acceptable? It's like some kind of virtual stoning.
		
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I'm sure free speech is a fundamental right, if your in the public eye the public will talk about you.  If you do things that are wrong be prepared to be criticised


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## Swango1980 (Feb 20, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Clip shows nothing!

Kostis had an opinion about the original lie! Where is the evidence of the "original lie".
		
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I'm not sure the clip was being used as conclusive evidence at all? Indeed, it doesn't prove anything. However, what is does show that the pundit (who was potentially an on course pundit, so got up close and personal to the ball) was confident enough to explain that the lie was improved by Reed, to such an extent that he was able to go with a 3 wood that would have been a very unlikely choice to begin with. It is unlikely that the pundit would have said this if it was completely untrue. Unless he had a personal vendetta against Reed, and he just liked to make stuff up for a bit of controversy. I think that is unlikely, particularly with everything else that has cropped up since the "sand" incident.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 20, 2020)

Parsaregood said:



			You seriously have to be asking the question, why would Peter Kostis make this up ? Then we have all the other incidents. Seriously you think hes not at it ? Give it a break, the bunker footage alone is damning enough
		
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I don't need to give anything a break thank you very much.

I deal in facts and the bottom line is that clip shows nothing other than Reed playing his ball and Kostis making an accusation which as far as I can tell (without further evidence) is only his opinion.


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## patricks148 (Feb 20, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I don't need to give anything a break thank you very much.

I deal in facts and the bottom line is that clip shows nothing other than Reed playing his ball and Kostis making an accusation which as far as I can tell (without further evidence) is only his opinion.
		
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Jacko... he's a cheat ... fact


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## Jacko_G (Feb 20, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			Jacko... he's a cheat ... fact

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I'm not disputing that. I'm saying that clip shows sweet fanny Adams.


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## patricks148 (Feb 20, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			I'm not disputing that. I'm saying that clip shows sweet fanny Adams.
		
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isn't she on the LPGA tour


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## Parsaregood (Feb 20, 2020)

Nobody is saying the clip shows him cheating though what it shows is Patrick reed going up to his ball, initially pulling out an iron grounding it 4 or 5 times behind the ball then deciding he can actually hit a wood. Peter Kostis who is a very experienced golfer and golf coach had seen the lie and knew theres no way you could hit a wood which is what he says. Do we just dismiss this ? I believe peter kostis when he says what he says, I think there should be an investigation into all alleged instances by The tour, afterall if hes cheating, he is potentially cheating guys out of lots of money. It is their livelihood at the end of the day


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## pendodave (Feb 20, 2020)

Parsaregood said:



			I'm sure free speech is a fundamental right, if your in the public eye the public will talk about you.  If you do things that are wrong be prepared to be criticised
		
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So does this fundamental right extend right up to the point that their mental health is destroyed and they take some form of extremely sad action, or right through until the mob is finally satisfied?


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## Jacko_G (Feb 20, 2020)

Parsaregood said:



			Nobody is saying the clip shows him cheating though what it shows is Patrick reed going up to his ball, initially pulling out an iron grounding it 4 or 5 times behind the ball then deciding he can actually hit a wood. Peter Kostis who is a very experienced golfer and golf coach had seen the lie and knew theres no way you could hit a wood which is what he says. Do we just dismiss this ? I believe peter kostis when he says what he says, I think there should be an investigation into all alleged instances by The tour, afterall if hes cheating, he is potentially cheating guys out of lots of money. It is their livelihood at the end of the day
		
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That clip shows him hitting a wood, doesn't show him using an iron to flatten the lie unless I'm not seeing the full clip!


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## Parsaregood (Feb 20, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			That clip shows him hitting a wood, doesn't show him using an iron to flatten the lie unless I'm not seeing the full clip!
		
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The footage does exist, that is just a short clip on Twitter. I wouldn't be surprised if the tour haven't already looked into alot of this, it's not great publicity for anybody so I'm not sure how it will play out but I dont think you have heard the last of it.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 20, 2020)

Parsaregood said:



			The footage does exist, that is just a short clip on Twitter. I wouldn't be surprised if the tour haven't already looked into alot of this, it's not great publicity for anybody so I'm not sure how it will play out but I dont think you have heard the last of it.
		
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Well sadly until I see this footage I can't take the word of one man on the subject. Dangerous world to just throw about a statement and take it for gospel without further evidence. 

I'm not calling Kostis a liar, I just require it to be backed up properly.


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## Parsaregood (Feb 20, 2020)

pendodave said:



			So does this fundamental right extend right up to the point that their mental health is destroyed and they take some form of extremely sad action, or right through until the mob is finally satisfied?
		
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What mob ? Is it wrong for people to call out what they believe to be inherently wrong ? do you want to live in a world where you are told what to say and feel because you might upset someone? if your job is a public figure, part of your job is dealing with the press and public opinion. If you dont cannot take criticism but are willing to be praised get a job out with the public domain, it's not the job for you


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## Parsaregood (Feb 20, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Well sadly until I see this footage I can't take the word of one man on the subject. Dangerous world to just throw about a statement and take it for gospel without further evidence.

I'm not calling Kostis a liar, I just require it to be backed up properly.
		
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CBS or the primary broadcaster will have the footage, do you have an opinion on the other instances or would you require further evidence?


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## Jacko_G (Feb 20, 2020)

Parsaregood said:



			CBS or the primary broadcaster will have the footage, do you have an opinion on the other instances or would you require further evidence?
		
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Everything needs backed up.

The bunker thing should have lead to a DQ it didn't the PGA decided on a penalty. They dealt with that, rightly or wrongly they did it their way.

All allegations need to be proven and not taken on hearsay which to me this is at present. Back it up or shut up. (Not you - Kostis)


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## Parsaregood (Feb 20, 2020)

Kostis has pointed to other incidents with reed in the rough, there has been other footage of reed in other bunkers which doesnt look great. It's all painting a picture, if I was reed and I was innocent I'd want the tour to investigate so my name could be cleared. Will Patrick sue for slander ? Let's see


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## inc0gnito (Feb 20, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			Do you honestly think that he cares? From everything we see and hear about the guy, I don't think he gives a flying duck about the opinions of others.
		
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He’ll be crying on the inside and hugging his pillow at nights


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## inc0gnito (Feb 20, 2020)

Marshy77 said:



			He said there's video evidence to prove it. All he has to do is also comment on the videos at the time.
		
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Listen to the podcast. He explains why.


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## JonnyGutteridge (Feb 20, 2020)

I'm actually in agreement with a post earlier in the thread, there is a pretty nasty mob mentality gaining traction.

Tiger cheated at The Masters..! NO ONE CARED. Tour players cheat every week, they manipulate the rules beyond what is reasonable for their own scoring/financial gain. From a moral perspective, Tiger is probably on par with Reed, if not worse. But the same people who want Reed banned from competing and outcast from society are the same people yelling 'MASHED POTATOES!!!!' every time Tiger steps on the tee.


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## DaveR (Feb 20, 2020)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			I'm actually in agreement with a post earlier in the thread, there is a pretty nasty mob mentality gaining traction.

Tiger cheated at The Masters..! NO ONE CARED. Tour players cheat every week, they manipulate the rules beyond what is reasonable for their own scoring/financial gain. From a moral perspective, Tiger is probably on par with Reed, if not worse. But the same people who want Reed banned from competing and outcast from society are the same people yelling 'MASHED POTATOES!!!!' every time Tiger steps on the tee.
		
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I'll think you'll find that plenty of people cared when Tiger 'cheated' at the Masters. If you didn't then maybe that says something about your own viewpoint on what is acceptable.


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## Parsaregood (Feb 20, 2020)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			I'm actually in agreement with a post earlier in the thread, there is a pretty nasty mob mentality gaining traction.

Tiger cheated at The Masters..! NO ONE CARED. Tour players cheat every week, they manipulate the rules beyond what is reasonable for their own scoring/financial gain. From a moral perspective, Tiger is probably on par with Reed, if not worse. But the same people who want Reed banned from competing and outcast from society are the same people yelling 'MASHED POTATOES!!!!' every time Tiger steps on the tee.
		
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Tiger didn't actually cheat at the masters , I'm sure this has been covered several times in this forum. There is a rules explanation for what occurred there. Now to say guys who think reed should be investigated are part of a mob of guys who shout mashed potatoes etc is just plain wrong and generalisation gone mad. Also to use the point that tour plays may or may not cheat every week so dont pick on reed, well that's just plain stupid. It's ok dont have a go at him for cheating these guys cheat aswell, what sort of attitude is that to have. It's wrong however you look at it, the tour just has to stand up and have a proper look into it and to punish/sanction properly for these things. This is how you prevent it from occurring


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## inc0gnito (Feb 20, 2020)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			I'm actually in agreement with a post earlier in the thread, there is a pretty nasty mob mentality gaining traction.

Tiger cheated at The Masters..! NO ONE CARED. Tour players cheat every week, they manipulate the rules beyond what is reasonable for their own scoring/financial gain. From a moral perspective, Tiger is probably on par with Reed, if not worse. But the same people who want Reed banned from competing and outcast from society are the same people yelling 'MASHED POTATOES!!!!' every time Tiger steps on the tee.
		
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Can’t see the mob angle you’re referring too. Just people calling out a guy who has a reputation for cheating. Who wants to support a cheat?  
Doesn’t mean anyone is about to turn up at his house with pitchforks and clubs.


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## Springveldt (Feb 20, 2020)

Marshy77 said:



			He's shown in the past that things like that really don't bother him.
		
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Bothered his caddie though.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 20, 2020)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			I'm actually in agreement with a post earlier in the thread, there is a pretty nasty mob mentality gaining traction.

Tiger cheated at The Masters..! NO ONE CARED. Tour players cheat every week, they manipulate the rules beyond what is reasonable for their own scoring/financial gain. From a moral perspective, Tiger is probably on par with Reed, if not worse. But the same people who want Reed banned from competing and outcast from society are the same people yelling 'MASHED POTATOES!!!!' every time Tiger steps on the tee.
		
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I'll have to counter this.

Concerned about mob mentality? Well, the simply truth his, individualpeople have opinions. About you, about me, about lots of things. Some will he positive, others negative. Individuals views can vary massively, as well as the methods they express those views.

We can't really directly control this without seriously infringing on peoples rights to free speech. 

If you are in the public eye, all of a sudden you now have millions of individuals who have an opinion of you. Some may be bad, some horrific. Out of such a large sample size, you are going to hear extreme views voiced, particularly now with social media and these views are expressed by people who dont necessarily care about being polite, professional, measured or politically correct. 

If we are worried about Reed's mental health, to what extent can we criticise if he is thought to be cheating? When Lance Armstrong was caught doping, can people express an opinion on that, or should they all keep quiet in case it makes him unhappy?

I think mainstream media need to take a huge responsibility in how they report, especially the tabloids. They can fuel public opinion, and they can certainly stir great negativity without worrying about reasonable facts, but using very light rumours. All about selling stories, nothing much about truth.

I've not seen anything disturbing on this forum. Some have called him a blatant cheat, others are less bothered about making a big deal out of it. All perfectly normal opinion.

As for Tiger, I'll just say you are incorrect but others have already pointed this out.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 20, 2020)

Gary Woodlands has a more pleasant demeanor than most. Certainly more refined and "classier" than some other professionals or coaches.

https://www.golf.com/news/2020/02/14/gary-woodland-patrick-reed-bahamas-rules-incident/


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## Depreston (Feb 20, 2020)

Can’t stand the cretin tbh the rumours were flying around and then he went and done his bunker flattening act


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## Depreston (Feb 20, 2020)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			I'm actually in agreement with a post earlier in the thread, there is a pretty nasty mob mentality gaining traction.

Tiger cheated at The Masters..! NO ONE CARED. Tour players cheat every week, they manipulate the rules beyond what is reasonable for their own scoring/financial gain. From a moral perspective, Tiger is probably on par with Reed, if not worse. But the same people who want Reed banned from competing and outcast from society are the same people yelling 'MASHED POTATOES!!!!' every time Tiger steps on the tee.
		
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Love how tiger gets shoehorned into everything to do with golf ... the reason there is a mob mentality Is he’s been caught and he didn’t admit it he’s a liar and a cheat


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## JamesR (Feb 20, 2020)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			I'm actually in agreement with a post earlier in the thread, there is a pretty nasty mob mentality gaining traction.

Tiger cheated at The Masters..! NO ONE CARED. Tour players cheat every week, they manipulate the rules beyond what is reasonable for their own scoring/financial gain. From a moral perspective, Tiger is probably on par with Reed, if not worse. But the same people who want Reed banned from competing and outcast from society are the same people yelling 'MASHED POTATOES!!!!' every time Tiger steps on the tee.
		
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I’ve read some steaming piles on this forum & this is right up there...!


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## Slab (Feb 21, 2020)

We also need to remember why it is that so many players both on Tour and at club level do this… (& I’m sure I’ll get corrected if this changed last year but I don’t think it did)

It’s because they are actually allowed to fairly take their stance and address the ball when it’s in the rough, they are also permitted to change their mind about what club they want to hit

Of course they are not allowed to deliberately improve the lie by pressing down with the club but _they are allowed_ to let the clubheads own weight reach as near the ground as it will, and if that should compress some grass… well it’s _not _a breach because the grass can be compressed to the point it will support the weight of the club, _without breaking the rule_

And then we see them change irons (under the guise of genuine indecision) and repeat the action so there’s now a little bit more compression and then its back to the first club (acceptable? or should changing clubs after address be banned under the rules or limited to once only perhaps?)

So it becomes a matter of how many times they are allowed to carry out this action to let the clubs own weight press down grass & afaik it’s not defined in the rules by a number! _and _its why pro’s push things beyond what we’d do on the course so it becomes a judgement for the rules guys for that comp and a talking point for keyboard warriors like us

The above (plausible?) example would suggest at an absolute minimum three times is easily acceptable under the current rules, so how difficult do you think it is for a rules guy to penalise someone for going back to the 2nd club choice & doing a 4th ?

We also see them popping the club up and down at address even when not in the rough & i'll wager this is not accidental, it will allow them a reference of how they typically address a ball so if they ever do get pulled for doing the same thing in the rough they can simply point to a shot on the fairway and say _'look at that I do it all the time'_


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## Sports_Fanatic (Feb 21, 2020)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			I'm actually in agreement with a post earlier in the thread, there is a pretty nasty mob mentality gaining traction.

Tiger cheated at The Masters..! NO ONE CARED. Tour players cheat every week, they manipulate the rules beyond what is reasonable for their own scoring/financial gain. From a moral perspective, Tiger is probably on par with Reed, if not worse. But the same people who want Reed banned from competing and outcast from society are the same people yelling 'MASHED POTATOES!!!!' every time Tiger steps on the tee.
		
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I accept Reed is a hard person to defend and should face criticism for the bunker incident (although the Tour did "deal" with it at the time), but i do also agree that people pile on when they see momentum and so much is wrapped up in the media image presented. For example, Reed regularly is criticised for falling out with family and cutting them off - i don't know the incident but that's not golf related and feels like it should be left.

As a comparative example, Mickelson has been involved/associated in two counts of fraud (Insider dealing and college admissions scammer) and gets rarely mentioned. He regularly has convenient drops and said he was gaming the rules when deliberately knocking a moving ball back. Yes he looked a fool on that incident, and probably a moment of frustration but that sort of deliberate action it is cheating but again it's mentioned rarely and i don't recall other golfers having much to say.

I think for all Reed's actions, it's now for the PGA to deal with (as they "did" the bunker incident) and the constant media articles should slow down on it. Interesting though as I saw he was up at the top of the leader board yesterday - could be fireworks when he makes the Ryder Cup team.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 21, 2020)

Sports_Fanatic said:



			I accept Reed is a hard person to defend and should face criticism for the bunker incident (although the Tour did "deal" with it at the time), but i do also agree that people pile on when they see momentum and so much is wrapped up in the media image presented. For example, Reed regularly is criticised for falling out with family and cutting them off - i don't know the incident but that's not golf related and feels like it should be left.

As a comparative example, Mickelson has been involved/associated in two counts of fraud (Insider dealing and college admissions scammer) and gets rarely mentioned. He regularly has convenient drops and said he was gaming the rules when deliberately knocking a moving ball back. Yes he looked a fool on that incident, and probably a moment of frustration but that sort of deliberate action it is cheating but again it's mentioned rarely and i don't recall other golfers having much to say.

I think for all Reed's actions, it's now for the PGA to deal with (as they "did" the bunker incident) and the constant media articles should slow down on it. Interesting though as I saw he was up at the top of the leader board yesterday - could be fireworks when he makes the Ryder Cup team.
		
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Pretty sure Mickleson got massive criticism at the time when he hit the moving ball back. Massive. And, he openly admitted to thinking he could do it within the rules (with a small penalty included rather than DQ). Kuchar got massive criticism when he didn't pay his part time caddie when he won a big event. Woods gets criticised any time he doesn't sign an autograph or pulls out injured, with people blaming it on the fact he just pulled out due to bad score.

Reed got massive criticism for the sand incident. Problem is, it wont go away because more and more in game are suggesting it was not a one off incident, with various sources suggesting he gets up to this all the time. 

Ironically, the problem for Reed is, people didn't call him.out much earlier. Had they done, perhaps he could have done more not to bend rules, and therecwouldnt be multiple breaches to talk about. But, people generally stayed quiet, and now it suddenly came right out in open, they are coming out of the woodwork now with all these other incidents. Mind you, had his antiques been highlighted to him previously, even via a private word, he has less of a leg to stand on.


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## rulefan (Feb 21, 2020)

www.golfchannel.com/news/peter-kostis-ive-seen-patrick-reed-improve-lies-close-and-personal


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## Jacko_G (Feb 21, 2020)

rulefan said:



www.golfchannel.com/news/peter-kostis-ive-seen-patrick-reed-improve-lies-close-and-personal

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So Kostis now admitting the actions may not have been intentional or premeditated. I suspect a court date will be coming up in future. Sounds like hes had him moment of fame, wonder if its going to be worth it in the long run????


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## Swango1980 (Feb 21, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			So Kostis now admitting the actions *may* not have been intentional or premeditated. I suspect a court date will be coming up in future. Sounds like hes had him moment of fame, wonder if its going to be worth it in the long run????
		
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That's just the way of the world though, isn't it. Especially if your making statements the wider public will read, you have to be careful and "cover yourself" for any counter action. His personal opinion / hunch may well be that Reed deliberately did what he did, but of course he cannot come out and say he did it deliberately, as without Reed actually admitting it, how can you prove it. And so, if he was careless enough to say it was deliberate, and Reed felt Kostis was tarnishing Reed's reputation without conclusive evidence, then he could get hammered by legal action.

His statement certainly doesn't imply that he feels Reed did it accidentally, only that he MAY have done it accidentally, even if he things there is only a 0.0001% chance he did it by accident.


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## robinthehood (Feb 21, 2020)

I have heard that a lot of pros do the resting the club behind the ball. I guess he doesn't like reed very much .


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## Jacko_G (Feb 21, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			That's just the way of the world though, isn't it. Especially if your making statements the wider public will read, you have to be careful and "cover yourself" for any counter action. His personal opinion / hunch may well be that Reed deliberately did what he did, but of course he cannot come out and say he did it deliberately, as without Reed actually admitting it, how can you prove it. And so, if he was careless enough to say it was deliberate, and Reed felt Kostis was tarnishing Reed's reputation without conclusive evidence, then he could get hammered by legal action.

His statement certainly doesn't imply that he feels Reed did it accidentally, only that he MAY have done it accidentally, even if he things there is only a 0.0001% chance he did it by accident.
		
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He's covered himself my backside. He has gone public calling out someone for incidents that may or may not have happened and called him a cheat. This has milage.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 21, 2020)

What does the individual with low self-esteem and so an inherent fear of failure do?  He will often act the positive carefree up front guy, but will also cheat or lie even when he is well capable of succeeding without doing so.  He does not need to cheat or lie - but his insecurity and self-esteem are such that he will - even when he knows he is likely to get found out...he can't help it. 

So we can crticise golfer A, B or C for cheating - brand and call him a cheat - but I think we do need to be a little bit wary if we think of doing so.


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## rksquire (Feb 21, 2020)

Controversy follows Reed around, he loves being the pantomime villain and I imagine he'll roll with this.  Allegations have been mentioned from his college days, but he does seem to get motivation from being knocked down.  Brooks / Kostis / Smith etc. vocally condemning him - it may well affect him, but he's still pitching up at tournaments and continuing with his business - it's Reed and his entourage (wife, brother in law, etc.) against the world and that's the way he likes it.  If players decide they don't want to play with him, the tour can't take Reed out of the tour; the complaining players themselves would have to withdraw.  And it would also be fairly hypocritical to refuse to play with him for 'cheating' in golf when others have done much worse in their personal lives and players don't take a stand on that (I get that golf and personal lives are separate but the outrage should be equal and outspoken condemnation should at least be equal).


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## Swango1980 (Feb 21, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			He's covered himself my backside. *He has gone public calling *out someone for incidents that may or may not have happened and called him a cheat. This has milage.
		
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Yes, he has gone public (after all, his job is to go public about his opinions about golf). He has caveated it by saying he is not 100% saying he is cheating. It happens all the times, when TV presenters often throw in the word "allegedly" when discussing an accusation, even if they are strongly implying that the accusation is true.

If it was ONLY Kostis calling Reed out, then maybe you could look at the angle that it is a witch hunt and Reed could be being treated unfairly. But, this is clearly not the case. Plenty of golf pundits, players and others have voiced their opinions on Reed to various degrees, Kostis may just have been the loudest voice to date.

A lot of factors seem to exist that demonstrate that Reed may well be a cheat. However, unless Reed actually admits his intentions or you get Uri Geller in to read his mind, if one was to simply refuse to think of him as a very possible cheat, do you not think that may be a little bit like "burying your head in the sand?". What would it take for one to start thinking he could well be a cheat then?

A bigger question is, though, how many other players do this? Who are they? And, as another poster pointed out, are they simply resting the club behind ball to try and get away with it, or at least having a ready made excuse if questioned.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 21, 2020)

rksquire said:



			Controversy follows Reed around, he loves being the pantomime villain and I imagine he'll roll with this.  Allegations have been mentioned from his college days, but he does seem to get motivation from being knocked down.  Brooks / Kostis / Smith etc. vocally condemning him - it may well affect him, but he's still pitching up at tournaments and continuing with his business - it's Reed and his entourage (wife, brother in law, etc.) against the world and that's the way he likes it.  If players decide they don't want to play with him, the tour can't take Reed out of the tour; the complaining players themselves would have to withdraw.  And it would also be fairly hypocritical to refuse to play with him for 'cheating' in golf when others have done much worse in their personal lives and players don't take a stand on that (I get that golf and personal lives are separate but the outrage should be equal and outspoken condemnation should at least be equal).
		
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I agree with players refusing to play with him. How? Yes, even if the PGA tried to quietly ensure they were drawn together to avoid negative publicity, what happens after the CUT and they have to play together due to similar scores? If players refused to play with him, they'd pretty much have to decide this on mass and force the PGA to decide "it is either Reed or us that will not play". That is not going to happen.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 21, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, he has gone public (after all, his job is to go public about his opinions about golf). He has caveated it by saying he is not 100% saying he is cheating. It happens all the times, when TV presenters often throw in the word "allegedly" when discussing an accusation, even if they are strongly implying that the accusation is true.

If it was ONLY Kostis calling Reed out, then maybe you could look at the angle that it is a witch hunt and Reed could be being treated unfairly. But, this is clearly not the case. Plenty of golf pundits, players and others have voiced their opinions on Reed to various degrees, Kostis may just have been the loudest voice to date.

A lot of factors seem to exist that demonstrate that Reed may well be a cheat. However, unless Reed actually admits his intentions or you get Uri Geller in to read his mind, if one was to simply refuse to think of him as a very possible cheat, do you not think that may be a little bit like "burying your head in the sand?". What would it take for one to start thinking he could well be a cheat then?

A bigger question is, though, how many other players do this? Who are they? And, as another poster pointed out, are they simply resting the club behind ball to try and get away with it, or at least having a ready made excuse if questioned.
		
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The word "allegedly" doesn't suddenly exclude you from any fall out or defamation. Give me evidence please, when is Kostis going to back up these claims, that is all I'm asking, Reed may very well have history, he may be guilty of the things that Kostis says however without "proof" he is making a rod for his own back. Its very easy to jump on a band wagon and kick people when they're down. 

Its been mentioned that a lot of professionals "may" possibly be guilty of improving their lie - where is the uproar about this? 

Mob mentality has been mentioned and I tend to agree.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 21, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			The word "allegedly" doesn't suddenly exclude you from any fall out or defamation. *Give me evidence please*, when is Kostis going to back up these claims, that is all I'm asking, Reed may very well have history, he may be guilty of the things that Kostis says however without "proof" he is making a rod for his own back. Its very easy to jump on a band wagon and kick people when they're down.

Its been mentioned that a lot of professionals "may" possibly be guilty of improving their lie - where is the uproar about this?

Mob mentality has been mentioned and I tend to agree.
		
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As I said, what are you looking for? Obviously, the "sand" incident causes you no issues of concern. Other video clips tending to suggest possible rules breaking seem to cause you no concern. Players that know and play with him suggesting he is guilty causes you no concern. So, if a host of videos and witnesses seem to cause you no concern, what would be required? How many videos? How many witnesses?

Not having a go, but it just seems you have a very high bar before you suspect he may actually be a cheat.

As for other players? Well, once video footage of them starts coming out that suggests they are bending the rules, I have no doubt they will be scrutinised by all as well. However, so far nothing has yet emerged. Either, it is difficult to find any footage or there is a massive cover up, except that no one cares unless Reed is accused of anything.

Also, the word allegedly does help. For example, there is a huge difference by stating that it is alleged somebody did something compared to saying they actually 100% did something. If you can't prove 100%, you could be in trouble. If you simply say allegedly, you are basically not making any accusation yourself and simply commenting on what has been reported by others as a possibility. Of course, it wouldn't help a lot if you earlier said you were 100% certain on something, but I am not sure Kostis ever did (although not gone through all footage). In that video clip, he simply suggested that the lie was different to what is was originally, and in between Reed had been considering other clubs before selecting 3 wood, and that the lie changed by placing those clubs behind ball. But, he never actually said that Reed did this intentionally to improve his lie, he just highlighted that this was the outcome. I don't think I am wrong on this.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 21, 2020)

High bar?

I deal in facts and evidence not hearsay and if you're willing to accept gospel and hearsay fill your boots. 

Sand incident was dealt with by the Tour, what more do you want. Have a read of what Gary Woodlands posted on the subject and he was party to the conversations that took place in the scorers/officials tent. 

Also there is no difference if you throw the world allegedly in front of an accusation without having evidence to back it up. 

My stance has never changed, Reed may or may not be guilty of these misdemeanours however I'm still waiting for the evidence to back up the whispers.


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## Slab (Feb 21, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			..........
*As for other players? Well, once video footage of them starts coming out that suggests they are bending the rules, I have no doubt they will be scrutinised by all as well.* *However, so far nothing has yet emerged.* Either, it is difficult to find any footage or there is a massive cover up, except that no one cares unless Reed is accused of anything.
		
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I realise you're chatting with Jacko but re my highlight, this is something routinely seen on live broadcast. When footage shown start to finish its tougher to find a tour pro who doesn't juggle the club behind the ball when its in the rough (they are certainly the minority)


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## Swango1980 (Feb 21, 2020)

Slab said:



			I realise you're chatting with Jacko but re my highlight, this is something routinely seen on live broadcast. When footage shown start to finish its tougher to find a tour pro who doesn't juggle the club behind the ball when its in the rough (they are certainly the minority)
		
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I agree, they do it all the time. It's just the lie has never been mentioned or talked about if it was improved. I reckon, now with all this Reed business, camera's may well start getting in for a closer look, so if players are "bending" the rules, I reckon they'll all be a little more careful now. I appreciate Reed hasn't had the benefit of this heads up, as he has been the first brought to task in the media. What will be interesting is, if any footage exists where Koepka might have been a little generous to himself in what he got away with. He must be fairly confident that that will not happen


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## Swango1980 (Feb 21, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			High bar?

I deal in facts and evidence not hearsay and if you're willing to accept gospel and hearsay fill your boots.

Sand incident was dealt with by the Tour, what more do you want. Have a read of what Gary Woodlands posted on the subject and he was party to the conversations that took place in the scorers/officials tent.

Also there is no difference if you throw the world allegedly in front of an accusation without having evidence to back it up.

My stance has never changed, Reed may or may not be guilty of these misdemeanours however I'm still waiting for the evidence to back up the whispers.
		
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Yeah, I heard Woodlands take on it. In fact, I'll try and hear as many viewpoints as possible to try and get a more informed opinion. I accept many players will not go accusing Reed of anything, either because they are friends, team mates or just don't want to get involved in any controversy.

I accept that you are not willing to pass judgment. And, if you were head of the USPGA Tour, you'd also need to have plenty of facts in front of you if you were to deal with it in any long term way. My issue was not about your opinion on that, that is fine. It was more to do with criticising others for their view point. For those brandishing him a cheat, I can accept how they have come to that conclusion / opinion. If this is called "mob mentality", then I don't see this should be overly criticised unless you believe either people are not entitled to an opinion without fact, or they are not allowed to express that opinion. That's what happens in forums. If somebody's opinion becomes overly extreme or personal, they can be criticised for jumping to wild conclusions completely unrelated to the incident. But, saying he is a cheat in my opinion, isn't exactly an absurd opinion.

If mob mentality is a concern (on anything), I think the mainstream media and authorities need to take responsibility how they report stories, because often "facts" are easily twisted simply to sell stories, regardless of who gets kicked into the dirt along the way. Perhaps that is why a lot of these stories on Reed have not really been talked about until now (except for rumours here and there), because the golfing media didn't want to get themselves, the tour or Reed into a mess. However, maybe had players talked up right from start. If the tour had dealt with things strongly behind closed doors. Had they clarified certain rules, such as grounding your club, and even privately reminded players what they could and couldn't do, then maybe that would give Reed and others a big heads up, and any infractions thereafter could be dealt with as harshly as required (maybe they have done this, and the players should know the rules inside out, so if there are any loopholes, the authorities need to look into that).

But, rightly or wrongly, it seems like Reed has been doing things that don't appear to follow the rules, with footage, pundits and players seemingly backing this up. What will be interesting is , what will the USPGA do about it. Maybe sit back and do nothing, let Reed deal with it and hope it all blows over, even if that means blowing over after Reed has retired, meaning he basically needs to deal with it for his entire career. Or, will they come out and investigate these accusations, and then either punish Reed accordingly, or give him the chance to prove his innocence and then stand firmly behind him? Maybe Reed and his personal entourage will need to defend himself without the help of the USPGA?

Sadly for Reed, it looks like accusations of cheating will follow him for quite some time.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 21, 2020)

Not really sure where I have "criticised" anyone for having a view. 

I've been consistent in asking for this so called evidence to be published if it exists. Social media makes it extremely easy for people to jump on a bandwagon and gospel somehow manifests itself into "truth" without a shred of evidence.

I've never once said I think Reed is innocent and on the same page I'm not prepared to say he's guilty simply because a commentator wants to have their say.

Same as it would be at club level. Unless you have proof it's an extremely dangerous accusation to brandish. 

I'm sure I've made my point clear re requiring evidence. Good to have different views and opinions and debate without descending into a slagging match.

👍🏌️


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## Parsaregood (Feb 21, 2020)

I honestly think there  is enough evidence surrounding Reed for the tour to have a closer look at situations hes been in. also I think they will have someone quietly keeping an eye on him. the camera's definitely will and rightly so. I'm certainly not satisfied he has been 100% up front and with numerous accusations of cheating, stealing and even an accusation of marking in an incorrect score in a college tournament. Subsequently being asked to leave that college or leaving of his own will, its really not  a state of affairs that fills you with confidence that he is truthful. ever read his sisters social media post ? It seems he is a dubious character


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## inc0gnito (Feb 21, 2020)

Parsaregood said:



			I honestly think there  is enough evidence surrounding Reed for the tour to have a closer look at situations hes been in. also I think they will have someone quietly keeping an eye on him. the camera's definitely will and rightly so. I'm certainly not satisfied he has been 100% up front and with numerous accusations of cheating, stealing and even an accusation of marking in an incorrect score in a college tournament. Subsequently being asked to leave that college or leaving of his own will, its really not  a state of affairs that fills you with confidence that he is truthful. ever read his sisters social media post ? It seems he is a dubious character
		
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His reputation has followed him all his adult golfing life. Where there’s smoke and all that.


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## Canary Kid (Feb 21, 2020)

Kostis said that he has seen Reed improve his lie on three or four occasions.  He doesn’t need video evidence to support that, although it would of course help.  Most evidence given in court is verbal with witnesses saying what they saw ... they are not ignored if they don’t have supporting video evidence.  Verbal testimony from witnesses is primary evidence, not hearsay.  There seem to be a number of people giving primary evidence of what they have seen ... too many I suspect for Reed to risk suing anybody!


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## USER1999 (Feb 21, 2020)

The tour is not interested in pursuing things that put it, or it's players in a bad light. The TV companies follow the pga tour guidelines. You will not see close scrutiny of any of this going forwards.
The new pga tour tv deal will see the pga tour supply the tv feed to the host broadcaster. Anything detrimental to the tour, or it's players will not be broadcast. Welcome to the future.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 21, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			The tour is not interested in pursuing things that put it, or it's players in a bad light. The TV companies follow the pga tour guidelines. You will not see close scrutiny of any of this going forwards.
The new pga tour tv deal will see the pga tour supply the tv feed to the host broadcaster. Anything detrimental to the tour, or it's players will not be broadcast. Welcome to the future.
		
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It's worrying. How often do you see a wayward drive, and last picture you see is it bounding into rough with a dozen fans running right up to it as of there is a prize to the person that touches it firsst.Next thing you see is the player playing his shot from a decent lie.

What a conspiracy it would be if, the odd time, the fans gave the ball a helpful kick into a decent lie, or a bad kick depending on the player.

Of course, that wouldn't happen. If it did, I'm sure the coverage would tell us.....unless it conveniently goes missing


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## Slab (Feb 23, 2020)

A player on greenside rough on 14th at WGC on camera has just lifted and lowered his club head 4 times directly behind the ball
So placed the clubhead in position, lifted it and placed it again, each time compressing the grass a little more
No one mentioned it on commentary or built gallows on 15th tee

I'm not saying Reed is right in what he does I'm saying most of them are at it and people will be selective who they choose to pull up on it


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## User20204 (Feb 23, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Same as it would be at club level. Unless you have proof it's an extremely dangerous accusation to brandish.
		
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Allegedly happened at our club last year, accusations were made but unless you're prepared to stand up point that very finger straight at the accused it's a very dangerous road to go down and you the accuser may end up coming out worse.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 23, 2020)

HappyHacker1 said:



			Allegedly happened at our club last year, accusations were made but unless you're prepared to stand up point that very finger straight at the accused it's a very dangerous road to go down and you the accuser may end up coming out worse.
		
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Totally agree, although at club level there isn't usually video footage seemingly highlighting the potential infraction. 

In terms of other incidents relating to improving his lie in rough, I'm starting to come round to the fact that they should be treated with caution if they are being used to accuse Reed of cheating. It does seem like multiple players do this, maybe even a significant amount of players. It is easy to target Reed because of other non related incidents, simply to further tarnish his image. Fair enough , if it turns out he is 1 of a minority that does it. But, if not, it should be the application of the rule that should be evaluated, and any potential loopholes, rather than singling out Reed


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## Gopher (Feb 23, 2020)

There was an incident yesterday at the WGC, it was Reed funnily enough.  I think it was the first or second hole that he drove into a bush but there was an aerial about 4 feet high between his ball and the flag.  Straight away he said that he aerial was in his way so he got a free drop in the clear, pitched on the green and had a birdie putt.  

My issue is that he didn't even try to swing, I doubt whether he could have taken a stance in the bush, let alone take a swing.  How about a rule where if the player says he would hit the man-made obstacle then let him go ahead, if he does hit it then discount the stroke and give a free drop.  Reed didn't cheat, he used the rules to his advantage, but maybe the rules need tweaking, just a thought.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 23, 2020)

Gopher said:



			There was an incident yesterday at the WGC, it was Reed funnily enough.  I think it was the first or second hole that he drove into a bush but there was an aerial about 4 feet high between his ball and the flag.  Straight away he said that he aerial was in his way so he got a free drop in the clear, pitched on the green and had a birdie putt. 

My issue is that he didn't even try to swing, I doubt whether he could have taken a stance in the bush, let alone take a swing.  How about a rule where if the player says he would hit the man-made obstacle then let him go ahead, if he does hit it then discount the stroke and give a free drop.  Reed didn't cheat, he used the rules to his advantage, but maybe the rules need tweaking, just a thought.
		
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Standard line of sight. Not cheating.


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## Gopher (Feb 23, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Standard line of sight. Not cheating.
		
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Yes, that's what I said.


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## robinthehood (Feb 23, 2020)

Gopher said:



			There was an incident yesterday at the WGC, it was Reed funnily enough.  I think it was the first or second hole that he drove into a bush but there was an aerial about 4 feet high between his ball and the flag.  Straight away he said that he aerial was in his way so he got a free drop in the clear, pitched on the green and had a birdie putt.  

My issue is that he didn't even try to swing, I doubt whether he could have taken a stance in the bush, let alone take a swing.  How about a rule where if the player says he would hit the man-made obstacle then let him go ahead, if he does hit it then discount the stroke and give a free drop.  Reed didn't cheat, he used the rules to his advantage, but maybe the rules need tweaking, just a thought.
		
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Surely there must have been some sort of shot? Or does that rule not apply to this situation?


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## larmen (Feb 23, 2020)

Gopher said:



			How about a rule where if the player says he would hit the man-made obstacle then let him go ahead, if he does hit it then discount the stroke and give a free drop.
		
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The ball hitting it in flight, or the club hitting it during a swing?

I have taken a couple of blobs in rounds because a hybrid costs me £200+ and my set of irons didn’t come free either.

There was a video of Fowler (?) recently where he played a chip shot from a path. In slow motion his sponsor got goot coverage, but I was thinking that a new wedge cost me a hundred pounds if I try that one.


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## Gopher (Feb 23, 2020)

larmen said:



			The ball hitting it in flight, or the club hitting it during a swing?
		
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I was thinking of the ball hitting it, as in Reed's case the obstacle was about 5 yards in front of him.

The idea of calling the players bluff and asking them to try the shot is slightly tongue-in-cheek though as it won't happen, but it does amuse me how they get a free drop from some very dodgy places - I know it's all within the rules and they are entitled to do it!


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 23, 2020)

Gopher said:



			I was thinking of the ball hitting it, as in Reed's case the obstacle was about 5 yards in front of him.

The idea of calling the players bluff and asking them to try the shot is slightly tongue-in-cheek though as it won't happen, but it does amuse me how they get a free drop from some very dodgy places - I know it's all within the rules and they are entitled to do it!
		
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They all do it and at the first sign of trouble and hitting it into the rough there are some looking for a dodgy advertising hoarding, TV cable or in this case an aerial


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## Slime (Feb 24, 2020)

You just couldn't write it!


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## Jacko_G (Feb 24, 2020)

THE HATERS ARE GONNA HATE!

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂🏌️


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## HankMarvin (Feb 24, 2020)

Great win by Patrick.


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## chrisd (Feb 24, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			THE HATERS ARE GONNA HATE!

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂🏌️
		
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Aren't they just 👍👍


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## inc0gnito (Feb 24, 2020)

How did the crowd react?


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## robinthehood (Feb 24, 2020)

inc0gnito said:



			How did the crowd react?
		
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Someone shouted mashed potatoes.


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 24, 2020)

I don't like him but you have to respect his ability, especially with all of the furore around the Kostis comments surrounding him. Personally I'd have preferred someone else to have won but the best player triumphed


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## robinthehood (Feb 24, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I don't like him but you have to respect his ability, especially with all of the furore around the Kostis comments surrounding him. Personally I'd have preferred someone else to have won but the best player triumphed
		
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Would be nice to see Rory convert a few more top 5s in to wins.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 24, 2020)

Pretty sure I saw him kick a few balls out of the rough onto the fairway. To be fair, choosing between him and Bryson to win is a bit like choosing between Liverpool and Man City to win the league (as a Utd fan)


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## Marshy77 (Feb 24, 2020)

Great win, he played some great golf yesterday. As myself and few others have been saying in this thread, his mentality is as good as any player out there and that will continue to win him tournements along with his talent. Like Doherty and Rich Beem were saying yesterday - Reed is a fantastic player, looks so easy for him and he's a big time player.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 24, 2020)

jobr1850 said:



			Now got beef with radar
		
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Radar wanted to push buttons. 

Radar has turned into a bit of a tit these days, used to be a breath of fresh air, now he's full of his own felf importance. Great win for Reed and Radar wants to rehash cr,ap that has followed Reed all week. Give the guy a break and congratulate his play and concentrate on his play.


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## IanM (Feb 24, 2020)

He can certainly play...... he lets himself down on occasions, and boy, mud rerally sticks


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## Swango1980 (Feb 24, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Radar wanted to push buttons.

Radar has turned into a bit of a tit these days, used to be a breath of fresh air, now he's full of his own felf importance. Great win for Reed and Radar wants to rehash cr,ap that has followed Reed all week. Give the guy a break and congratulate his play and concentrate on his play.
		
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To be fair to Radar, he only gently pushed those buttons in his questions, and he'd be criticised by fans if he didn't try to push a little. After all, they are topical. But, I think he was generally respectful, and actually gave Reed the chance to provide answers that, in a way address how he has dealt with the criticism. I think McGinley in commentary was a little more persistent in keeping the issue of cheating highlighted all week. Every time footage shows a Reed shot, McGinley seemed to make some comment about the accusations following Reed.

I've been in the "Reed is a cheat" side of the debate generally throughout. And, in my head, I have still got loads of question marks around him. However, being devils advocate:

We have heard accusations of Reed improving his lie in rough, most notably by Kostis. However, it does appear that many players do this, potentially without worrying about being penalised by Rules. Why? Because, they can set club behind ball so long as they don't press down. They can waggle (which will touch grass behind ball). They can change their mind and do this all over again. Inevitably, this could cause a disturbance in grass behind ball, and who is going to penalise them? So, when Reed was highlighted as doing this, it may well be no different to many other players, and only Reed is being targeted because, it is Reed.

Fast forward to the sand incident. It wasn't a bunker, so in his mind he may have been in the similar mindset as to what he is when he is in the rough. He didn't actually set the club behind ball, but he did waggle when deciding what shot to play. This waggle caused sand to move, twice. Now, he is accused for improving his lie, and he took the penalty. But, trying to get into his head, perhaps when his club touched the sand during the waggle, he instinctively didn't see it being any different to hitting grass behind the ball when in the rough? He may also well have thought that it touched the sand far enough behind the ball, not to improve his lie (in terms of not touching sand immediately up against the ball). Again, a bit like in the rough, where the waggle will touch grass behind ball, but not necessarily the grass immediately surrounding the ball. Obviously, a big difference between being in sand and grass is, grass has a chance to pop back into position, sand doesn't.

So, if this was the case, and it seems to tie in with his defence, then he may honestly have thought that he was doing nothing devious at all at the time he did it. But, when pointed out to him, he took the penalty and accepted he had a bit of a brain freeze, but didn't really use words very well


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## Grant85 (Feb 24, 2020)

Didn't see the end last night and obviously a pretty impressive finish from Reed when the tournament was on the line. 

One thing I haven't seen much mentioned about was an incident on Saturday at the 1st hole. 

Reed had hit his shot left, not miles from the green, but in trouble. Riley said on commentary that it was in a bush and he had no shot. 
Then he managed to get a ruling on line of sight due to a mast next to the bush. He dropped it to the side of the bush with a reasonably clear shot onto the green. Made 4.

The ruling must have been that Reed claimed he would otherwise have played the shot from the bush and so got free relief. If he claimed he couldn't play the shot, then he would 1st have taken relief under penalty (2 club lengths, back between you and the hole or back to the tee etc.).  Then potentially a further (free drop) for line of sight. 

Riley seemed to suggest that this was very fortuitous but had initially claimed he had no shot. Beemer and Murray were very careful with what they said as they will both have known Reed would have had to tell the rules official he would have played a shot out of the bush if the mast hadn't been there. 

I saw Westwood at Portrush last year, being in a gorse down the right hand side of a hole. He was effectively in an animal burrow and the rules official asked him the question that if the ball wasn't in the rabbit scrapings, would he have played it. In reality he probably could have gotten a club on it, but Westy straight away said... no I wouldn't play it from down there. So takes a penalty drop back a few paces. 

Just a guess as the camera's didn't show exactly where Reed's ball was... but my opinion (from Riley and the commentator's reaction) is he wouldn't have risked playing that shot and effectively lied to get a free drop.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 24, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			Didn't see the end last night and obviously a pretty impressive finish from Reed when the tournament was on the line.

One thing I haven't seen much mentioned about was an incident on Saturday at the 1st hole.

Reed had hit his shot left, not miles from the green, but in trouble. Riley said on commentary that it was in a bush and he had no shot.
Then he managed to get a ruling on line of sight due to a mast next to the bush. He dropped it to the side of the bush with a reasonably clear shot onto the green. Made 4.

The ruling must have been that Reed claimed he would otherwise have played the shot from the bush and so got free relief. If he claimed he couldn't play the shot, then he would 1st have taken relief under penalty (2 club lengths, back between you and the hole or back to the tee etc.).  Then potentially a further (free drop) for line of sight.

Riley seemed to suggest that this was very fortuitous but had initially claimed he had no shot. Beemer and Murray were very careful with what they said as they will both have known Reed would have had to tell the rules official he would have played a shot out of the bush if the mast hadn't been there.

I saw Westwood at Portrush last year, being in a gorse down the right hand side of a hole. He was effectively in an animal burrow and the rules official asked him the question that if the ball wasn't in the rabbit scrapings, would he have played it. In reality he probably could have gotten a club on it, but Westy straight away said... no I wouldn't play it from down there. So takes a penalty drop back a few paces.

Just a guess as the camera's didn't show exactly where Reed's ball was... but my opinion (from Riley and the commentator's reaction) is he wouldn't have risked playing that shot and effectively lied to get a free drop.
		
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Can't comment specifically on that, but presumably the referee got involved so it was on his shoulders. If it was very possible he was lying, I'm pretty sure the referee can still make a subjective decision as to whether he gets relief or not (i.e. make judgement like the commentators). I've seen many players before try and get relied (e.g. McIlroy and Kuchar spring to mind), and the referee has not allowed it. So, I wouldn't criticise Reed for this. If he managed to argue his case, and the referee went along with it, that is on the referee's shoulders. After all, all players will try and get a ruling if they think it will work out in their favour.

I suppose, if you have something like a bush or tree that could be very much in play with a reasonably bad shot, when setting up the course, grandstands, scoreboards and TV equipment (towers and cables), it probably needs to be taken into account that this should be placed in positions to minimise the impact on player shots


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## Grant85 (Feb 24, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Can't comment specifically on that, but presumably the referee got involved so it was on his shoulders. If it was very possible he was lying, I'm pretty sure the referee can still make a subjective decision as to whether he gets relief or not (i.e. make judgement like the commentators). I've seen many players before try and get relied (e.g. McIlroy and Kuchar spring to mind), and the referee has not allowed it. So, I wouldn't criticise Reed for this. If he managed to argue his case, and the referee went along with it, that is on the referee's shoulders. After all, all players will try and get a ruling if they think it will work out in their favour.

I suppose, if you have something like a bush or tree that could be very much in play with a reasonably bad shot, when setting up the course, grandstands, scoreboards and TV equipment (towers and cables), it probably needs to be taken into account that this should be placed in positions to minimise the impact on player shots
		
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Yes - I think that's the get out and why it hasn't become a big deal. And certainly broadcasters don't want to lean too heavily on a player as they might be (rightly) criticised for not subjecting everyone to the same scrutiny.

But like I said, the official might ask you 'would you play it from there'. Now if you can get a club on it (even left handed), you can get away with saying yes and an official can't really ask you to show him. But the difference is when you are faced with the option of playing it or taking a penalty drop... are you actually going to take the penalty drop rather than risk trying to address your ball, moving it again, not getting it clear of the bush and leaving yourself in a worse position?

The incident with Rory (at this event last year) was that his ball was next to a cart path. The official had just given DJ a free drop, who'd taken a full stance with a 6 iron to ensure one foot was on the path. Gets 2 club lengths relief and can come out from behind a tree. Next hole Rory is in a similar spot, but is about 9 inches shorter than DJ and the official said he wasn't close enough to the path. Rory ended up playing it left handed onto the wrong fairway. Almost certain that if DJ took the shot that was available to him... i.e. a chip out with a wedge, he'd have been nowhere near the cart path.

Kuchar was at it with the 'ball made a 2nd divot' story.


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## Swinglowandslow (Feb 24, 2020)

I'm no expert on rules and so a which comes first scenario seems to be the case here with the bush and the aerial.
1. You could say that if the bush had not been there, would you have played the shot or claimed relief?  ( no penalty) - Reeds scenario 
2. You could say that if the aerial had not been there, would you have played the shot or claimed relief?( penalty for unplayable lie).

Many are happy with the fact that because the aerial was there , he was lucky in that he could go the 1 option.
Some think it was still a 2 option. 

Personally I think 1. is possible and it was his lucky day. I wouldn't say he cheated. 
I don't know, but did he get a ruling from an official prior to taking relief?
I would have expected a player to do so.


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## Marshy77 (Feb 24, 2020)

He used the rules and the ref said it was fine.


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## clubchamp98 (Feb 24, 2020)

This is why even with the most basic of rules questions that the player gets the ref to make the call.
The player can’t be penalised then as the ref made the ruling.
Reed is the pantomime villain ( Ryder cup) etc ,but you have to say he is a good player.
But he got away with one on the 72 nd hole ,what a really bad tee shot.


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## Wolf (Feb 24, 2020)

Great win for Reed, Great player who doesn't let the outside issues cloud his playing. Absolutely nothing wrong with getting the drop yesterday, so many players do similar and get nobody moaning about it but because its Reed people want to find fault.


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## Jacko_G (Feb 24, 2020)

I think it really shows the character and true determination of the guy. As I read elsewhere the week that Reed has had running up to this tournament would have broken most and ended careers.

Patrick was incredible in the face of such adversary. Love him or hate him I personally believe he deserves huge credit and maybe Radar should have behaved in such a way.


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