# Rule 14-2b Assistance!



## delc (Jan 18, 2014)

Just wondering what the point of Rule 14-2b is, when caddies can line up their players and then move away just before they start their swing? Why is it not assistance when players are lining up, but becomes assistance when they make their swings? IMO players should be entirely responsible for their set up and their swings!  The practice of caddies lining up players seems to be particularly prevalent on the LPGA Tour, and seems to waste a lot of time!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 18, 2014)

Im sure caddies are there to help their pros - I'm guessing you don't want them giving them yardages next or even help with reading the putts

I'm guessing it's more a final check that they are lined up correctly 

Can't see a problem with it


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## delc (Jan 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Im sure caddies are there to help their pros - I'm guessing you don't want them giving them yardages next or even help with reading the putts

I'm guessing it's more a final check that they are lined up correctly 

Can't see a problem with it
		
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Wastes time! It is up to the player not to start his or her swing while the caddie is standing behind the line of play.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 18, 2014)

delc said:



			Wastes time! It is up to the player not to start his or her swing while the caddie is standing behind the line of play.
		
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Sorry but what ?!?

Yes it us up to the player not to start his swing and he won't until he is ready and no one is behind his line 

No problem at all


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## delc (Jan 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but what ?!?

Yes it us up to the player not to start his swing and he won't until he is ready and no one is behind his line 

No problem at all
		
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Rule 14-2b only applies to playing partners and caddies.  Otherwise not standing directly behind the line of play is just a matter of etiquette, and the player can either ignore it, or ask the opponent or fellow competitor to move.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 18, 2014)

Again - don't see the problem


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## Fish (Jan 18, 2014)

Don't encourage him :smirk:


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## rosecott (Jan 18, 2014)

Fish said:



			Don't encourage him :smirk:
		
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He seems to like starting a pointless argument with himself.


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## delc (Jan 18, 2014)

So far I have only argued with Liverpoolphil, who obviously believes that 5+  hour rounds of golf are acceptable!  Caddies lining up players and then moving off the line of play is just another way of wasting time in pro tournaments. Either caddies shouldn't be allowed to stand behind the line of play at all, once the player starts to line up, or they can stay there.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jan 18, 2014)

You know, I didn't look to see who started this thread, but having read the OP, somehow I knew, without looking it was you. Is there a rule you don't want changed?

Do you spend your free time looking through the rule book trying to think of reasons why you want each one changed?


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## delc (Jan 18, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			You know, I didn't look to see who started this thread, but having read the OP, somehow I knew, without looking it was you. Is there a rule you don't want changed?

Do you spend your free time looking through the rule book trying to think of reasons why you want each one changed?
		
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This issue came up in the 'Where should you stand on the tee' thread in 'The Lounge' forum.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 18, 2014)

When did I say 5 and 1/2 hour rounds are acceptable ?!? 

Please also prove this is the reason why we have 5 and 1/2 rounds !! 

This isn't a cause of slow at clubs ! 

What an unreal tenuous link you have tried there


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## Fish (Jan 18, 2014)




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## delc (Jan 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When did I say 5 and 1/2 hour rounds are acceptable ?!? 

Please also prove this is the reason why we have 5 and 1/2 rounds !! 

This isn't a cause of slow at clubs ! 

What an unreal tenuous link you have tried there
		
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Club players can get the impression that playing golf at a snail's pace is perfectly acceptable from watching televised pro golf tournaments. This was obviously the case at our club this morning, when it took 2 1/2 hours to play 9 holes. And you couldn't blame the seniors for this, because very few of them play at weekends!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 18, 2014)

But that has zero relevance to a caddy helping line up a putt ! Zero 

Slow play is a problem but it's not because of another rule that you want changing !

On that note im out :thup:


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## chris661 (Jan 18, 2014)

Moved as it isn't actually a question regarding rules but yet ANOTHER moan questioning them


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## delc (Jan 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But that has zero relevance to a caddy helping line up a putt ! Zero 

Slow play is a problem but it's not because of another rule that you want changing !

On that note im out :thup:
		
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What seems to happen on the pro tours is that players amble down the fairway without apparently giving any thought to how and with what club they are going to play their next shot. When they get there, there is a five minute discussion with their caddies, during which time time yardages are paced out and much grass is thrown into the air to gauge the wind speed and direction. Eventually a consensus is reached as to which club is to be used. Then a number of practice swings followed by the lining up and the getting off the line ritual by the caddie. There are a few exceptions, such as Colin Montgomerie and John Daly, who seem to like to get a move on, but they get held up by all the others in front of them.  As to lining up itself, as an amateur club golfer I hardly ever play with a caddie, so I have to line myself up. Why can't this be the same for the pros?


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## Papas1982 (Jan 18, 2014)

delc said:



			What seems to happen on the pro tours is that players amble down the fairway without apparently giving any thought to how and with what club they are going to play their next shot. When they get there, there is a five minute discussion with their caddies, during which time time yardages are paced out and much grass is thrown into the air to gauge the wind speed and direction. Eventually a consensus is reached as to which club is to be used. Then a number of practice swings followed by the lining up and the getting off the line ritual by the caddie. There are a few exceptions, such as Colin Montgomerie and John Daly, who seem to like to get a move on, but they get held up by all the others in front of them.  As to lining up itself, as an *amateur* club golfer I hardly ever play with a caddie, so I have to line myself up. Why can't this be the same for the pros?  

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things are always different in sports between amateurs and pros. I don't think the is a person in this forum who's game wouldn't improve if they had Steve Willams with them for 18 holes. The golfer and caddie are a team working together to earn a living. As the saying goes. 2 heads are better than one. If the caddie calla a different line on one out, that could be the putt that wins them a major!


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## rickg (Jan 19, 2014)

Not another rule change request???? 
Do you ever write to the R&A about these, or just moan about them on golf forums?
Even Victor Meldrew didn't moan as much!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			Club players can get the impression that playing golf at a snail's pace is perfectly acceptable from watching televised pro golf tournaments. This was obviously the case at our club this morning, when it took 2 1/2 hours to play 9 holes. And you couldn't blame the seniors for this, because very few of them play at weekends!
		
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Aaah here we go......this isn't a moan about caddies lining up players, someone has accused the seniors of slow play........


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## TheJezster (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			What seems to happen on the pro tours is that players amble down the fairway without apparently giving any thought to how and with what club they are going to play their next shot. When they get there, there is a five minute discussion with their caddies, during which time time yardages are paced out and much grass is thrown into the air to gauge the wind speed and direction. Eventually a consensus is reached as to which club is to be used. Then a number of practice swings followed by the lining up and the getting off the line ritual by the caddie. There are a few exceptions, such as Colin Montgomerie and John Daly, who seem to like to get a move on, but they get held up by all the others in front of them.  As to lining up itself, as an amateur club golfer I hardly ever play with a caddie, so I have to line myself up. Why can't this be the same for the pros?  

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It's not our living.  It is theirs.  What about that can you not understand?  Saying that though, from your post it is clear that you have never watched live golf, or if you have you are on the windup deliberately using provocative words like "amble".  The plays dont AMBLE down the fairway, they practically RUN!  I had the good fortune to go to Walton Heath last year and watch the US Open qualifiers. I followed Paul Casey and Cabello-Bello round in the afternoon abd they were almost sprinting up the fairway to their balls.  This was the thing that struck me, they are NOT SLOW around the course.  Yes there obviously are a few players who are slow, but lets not lump all player in that bracket eih?  Let's try to be sensible shall we?  THink you can do that from now on?

Its the minority we need to clamp down on, and I hope the game does this, we all know who is slower than most, so lets see something done about it.  A caddy helping his boss line up a put does not contribute to this.  At all.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 19, 2014)

Interesting point Jezster. I think they played 36 at WH that day? Wonder if they were under orders to get round quickly to fit it in. Pro golf can be slow but that they can play quickly when they want to.


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## MadAdey (Jan 19, 2014)

rickg said:



			Not another rule change request???? 
Do you ever write to the R&A about these, or just moan about them on golf forums?
Even Victor Meldrew didn't moan as much!
		
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Well said

LOL :thup:


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

TheJezster said:



			It's not our living.  It is theirs.  What about that can you not understand?  Saying that though, from your post it is clear that you have never watched live golf, or if you have you are on the windup deliberately using provocative words like "amble".  The plays dont AMBLE down the fairway, they practically RUN!  I had the good fortune to go to Walton Heath last year and watch the US Open qualifiers. I followed Paul Casey and Cabello-Bello round in the afternoon abd they were almost sprinting up the fairway to their balls.  This was the thing that struck me, they are NOT SLOW around the course.  Yes there obviously are a few players who are slow, but lets not lump all player in that bracket eih?  Let's try to be sensible shall we?  THink you can do that from now on?

Its the minority we need to clamp down on, and I hope the game does this, we all know who is slower than most, so lets see something done about it.  A caddy helping his boss line up a put does not contribute to this.  At all.
		
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If there are no slow players, how come that some tournament rounds can take over 5 hours?  Watching pro golf on TV is getting rather like watching paint dry, particularly on the US PGA tour.  More a test of stamina and patience than shot making ability! You can go out for an hour and find that a particular group of players have only completed three holes in that time!  Worst of all is that some younger club members seem to believe that that is the way golf should be played, so that golf at amateur club level is getting slower and slower!  On the rare occasions when the course is pretty empty, three of us (all seniors) can get round 18 holes in less than three-and-a-half hours.  Yesterday (weekend) it took over 2 1/2 hours just to play 9 holes!  

P.S. I usually go to watch the BMW at Wentworth, a seniors tour event and a LET tournament every year. I have never seen any of the players coming even close to hurrying between shots!


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## TheJezster (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



*If there are no slow players*, how come that some tournament rounds can take over 5 hours?  Watching pro golf on TV is getting rather like watching paint dry, particularly on the US PGA tour.  More a test of stamina and patience than shot making ability! You can go out for an hour and find that a particular group of players have only completed three holes in that time!  Worst of all is that some younger club members seem to believe that that is the way golf should be played, so that golf at amateur club level is getting slower and slower!  On the rare occasions when the course is pretty empty, three of us (all seniors) can get round 18 holes in less than three-and-a-half hours.  Yesterday (weekend) it took over 2 1/2 hours just to play 9 holes!  

P.S. I usually go to watch the BMW at Wentworth, a seniors tour event and a LET tournament every year. I have never seen any of the players coming even close to hurrying between shots!
		
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Dear God, so even when someone pulls you up about the nature of your posts, you ignore that and make something up, insinuating they said something else entirely???

I highlight your first part, in red, to illustrate my point.  I shan't bother reading your posts again I dont think, because it's clear you dont read what is written to you, or if you do you ignore it and just make stuff up.  I cant abide that behavior, either debate properly or just dont bother.  To be clear, nowhere did I say We dont have slow players.  Read my post again, but dont bother replying because I wont respond after that.  It's just not worth it.  It's like talking to a kid who isnt mature enough yet to have an adult conversation.


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## Allanxyz (Jan 19, 2014)

I'm roughly in agreement here... Professional golf takes too long as far as I'm concerned. I understand you can't blame them as it's their living and they take the time allowed in order to make sure things are right because there is a lot of money involved. This is where the rules makers have to come in. Either tighten up the rules or enforce those that exist a bit more rigorously regarding time allowed.

The reason these guys can earn a living from golf is due to the public watching them.... If viewers turn off then they earn less money. I'm not sure if it's a big issue for the majority and with TV you can edit a lot of the faffing around out... But to me it is clear that youngsters are influences by what they see their heroes doing and if this means lining up a put from 5 different angles I don't think it's a good thing.

as for caddies lining players up... Not sure it is a massive issue, at least in the men's game, but I would ban it...


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

I'm amazed Delc actually plays golf with the amount of rules he wants changed - must hate the game


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## MadAdey (Jan 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm amazed Delc actually plays golf with the amount of rules he wants changed - must hate the game
		
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Reminds me of the sort of bloke that spends his RAF career doing nothing but manning about his job, yet still stays until the day he has to leave.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Reminds me of the sort of bloke that spends his RAF career doing nothing but manning about his job, yet still stays until the day he has to leave. 

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There are plenty of those


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

Allanxyz said:



			I'm roughly in agreement here... Professional golf takes too long as far as I'm concerned. I understand you can't blame them as it's their living and they take the time allowed in order to make sure things are right because there is a lot of money involved. This is where the rules makers have to come in. Either tighten up the rules or enforce those that exist a bit more rigorously regarding time allowed.

The reason these guys can earn a living from golf is due to the public watching them.... If viewers turn off then they earn less money. I'm not sure if it's a big issue for the majority and with TV you can edit a lot of the faffing around out... But to me it is clear that youngsters are influences by what they see their heroes doing and if this means lining up a put from 5 different angles I don't think it's a good thing.

as for caddies lining players up... Not sure it is a massive issue, at least in the men's game, but I would ban it...
		
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I'm glad that somebody agrees with me. Just one point: How do you edit out slow play during live coverage? Possible for edited recorded highlights obviously.  The caddies lining up the players mainly seems to be an issue on the Ladies tours. Don't know if lady golfers are actually genetically inferior at lining up or not, but it wastes a few seconds on every shot. I personally find it annoying and I believe I am not the only one. Several TV commentators have also said they don't like it!


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## Imurg (Jan 19, 2014)

As a Player and his/her Caddy are a team there is nothing in the Rules to prevent the Caddy helping to line up the shot...


BUT....

In my opinion, you're a poor Professional Golfer if you need someone else to make sure you're aligned properly............


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm amazed Delc actually plays golf with the amount of rules he wants changed - must hate the game
		
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I play golf about 5 times a week. Enjoy being outdoors, the scenery, the company, hitting the very occasional perfect golf shot and the challenge, but I don't like some of the rules. Same applies to Rory McIlroy I hear, after getting a 2-stroke penalty for standing on a white line!


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## Allanxyz (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			I'm glad that somebody agrees with me. Just one point: How do you edit out slow play during live coverage? Possible for edited recorded highlights obviously.  The caddies lining up the players mainly seems to be an issue on the Ladies tours. Don't know if lady golfers are actually genetically inferior at lining up or not, but it wastes a few seconds on every shot. I personally find it annoying and I believe I am not the only one. Several TV commentators have also said they don't like it!
		
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Guess it's tricky, but they should maybe cut to the player as they are about to take the shot rather than the two minutes beforehand of discussions, grass throwing and consulting with the caddy. Guess it's a balance as you need give the commentators enough time to say a few things about the shot. Think it mostly works like this currently...


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			I play golf about 5 times a week. Enjoy being outdoors, the scenery, the company, hitting the very occasional perfect golf shot and the challenge, *but I don't like some of the rules*. Same applies to Rory McIlroy I hear, after getting a 2-stroke penalty for standing on a white line!
		
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Blimey - didn't realise. :smirk:


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## d2cko (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			I'm glad that somebody agrees with me. Just one point: How do you edit out slow play during live coverage? Possible for edited recorded highlights obviously.  The caddies lining up the players mainly seems to be an issue on the Ladies tours. Don't know if lady golfers are *actually genetically inferior* at lining up or not, but it wastes a few seconds on every shot. I personally find it annoying and I believe I am not the only one. Several TV commentators have also said they don't like it!
		
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I agree too to be fair.  Discussing a line and getting your caddy to have a look for you is one thing.  Standing behind you and saying 'left a bit, a bit more, that'll do' seems like too much to me.  You aren't allowed alignment canes during play so why are you allowed somebody telling you you're off line?

I think calling them genetically inferior though is a bit harsh.  I thought we were past sexism in golf these days?


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## MadAdey (Jan 19, 2014)

I think the question here is this.........

if you could have someone stand behind you and make sure you had lined up perfect on every shot, would you?


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

d2cko said:



			I agree too to be fair.  Discussing a line and getting your caddy to have a look for you is one thing.  Standing behind you and saying 'left a bit, a bit more, that'll do' seems like too much to me.  You aren't allowed alignment canes during play so why are you allowed somebody telling you you're off line?

I think calling them genetically inferior though is a bit harsh.  I thought we were past sexism in golf these days?
		
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I had no intention of being sexist, just commenting that caddies lining up their players from behind the line of play seems to be more prevalent on the Ladies Golf Tours than the Mens, although some male golfers also get their caddies to check their alignment before hitting a shot.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			I think the question here is this.........

if you could have someone stand behind you and make sure you had lined up perfect on every shot, would you?
		
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I wouldn't - don't even like people helping me out with my line ( in fourball BB for example )


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			I had no intention of being sexist, just commenting that caddies lining up their players from behind the line of play seems to be more prevalent on the Ladies Golf Tours than the Mens, although some male golfers also get their caddies to check their alignment before hitting a shot.
		
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You do realise it's not all ladies and only a small percentage - watch the Solheim Cup and can't remember anyone doing it but I know a few of the Asian ladies do. But it's not against the rules so well within their rights


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			I think the question here is this.........

if you could have someone stand behind you and make sure you had lined up perfect on every shot, would you?
		
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I think the question is "Should the rules allow caddies or playing partners to be able to do this?"


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			I think the question is "Should the rules allow caddies or playing partners to be able to do this?"
		
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Yes - because it doesn't make any difference :thup:


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## MadAdey (Jan 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I wouldn't - don't even like people helping me out with my line ( in fourball BB for example )
		
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yeah but when it is someone who you trust like a caddy that you have spent years working with, wouldn't you let him do it? I read something about how tour players say having a caddy helping them on shots and lining them up can save them 2 or 3 shots a round


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes - because it doesn't make any difference :thup:
		
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Obviously some of the players on the LPGA Tour think it does, because otherwise they wouldn't bother.  Could just be a fashion thing I suppose!

BTW I am renowned as being one of the straightest drivers at my club. My lining up technique consists of picking a spot on the ground over which I want the ball to pass, pointing the club face squarely at that point, and then aligning the rest of myself in relation to that.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			yeah but when it is someone who you trust like a caddy that you have spent years working with, wouldn't you let him do it? I read something about how tour players say having a caddy helping them on shots and lining them up can save them 2 or 3 shots a round
		
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Oh totally understand why the pros do it with a caddy and have no problems at all with caddies helping them out


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Oh totally understand why the pros do it with a caddy and have no problems at all with caddies helping them out
		
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I though you said it made no difference!


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## Papas1982 (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			I though you said it made no difference!
		
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Yeah it makes no difference to the round time. Think of it this way. If they're caddie wasn't giving their opinion. What's to say the pros wouldn't check twice as much just to be sure......


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Yeah it makes no difference to the round time. Think of it this way. If they're caddie wasn't giving their opinion. What's to say the pros wouldn't check twice as much just to be sure......
		
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I think you are trying to wriggle out of what you meant! :rofl:

BTW I see Rory McIlroy finished one shot off the lead in Abu Dhabi after picking up a 2 stroke penalty in round 3 for another stupid rule!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			I though you said it made no difference!
		
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A caddy and a pro working together as a team ?

Should caddys also not give clubbing advice or yardage advice or wind advice - what else would you like changed ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			I think you are trying to wriggle out of what you meant! :rofl:

BTW I see Rory McIlroy finished one shot off the lead in Abu Dhabi after picking up a 2 stroke penalty in round 3 for another stupid rule!
		
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So would you like the full relief rule changed as well then ?


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## MadAdey (Jan 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A caddy and a pro working together as a team ?

Should caddys also not give clubbing advice or yardage advice or wind advice - what else would you like changed ?
		
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good point, at what point do you stop the caddy helping? Should the pros just put their bats on a powakaddy and not have caddies? But then that would start another debate on why young it healthy golfers aren't carrying.........


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A caddy and a pro working together as a team ?

Should caddys also not give clubbing advice or yardage advice or wind advice - what else would you like changed ?
		
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No, fine with all of those things, along with carrying the bag etc.  Caddies are supposed to be a player's assistant, not an alignment aid!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			No, fine with all of those things, along with carrying the bag etc.  Caddies are supposed to be a player's assistant, not an alignment aid!
		
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But he is assisting him with his alignment just as he is assisting him with his clubbing and distance etc 

You can't pick and choose.


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## MadAdey (Jan 19, 2014)

I think in a game that has some many different situations that require rules to written for, the governing bodies don't do a bad job at all. I will agree some rules like flattening spike marks on greens need changing, but that affects us more than a tour pros.


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## JustOne (Jan 19, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			I think the question here is this.........

if you could have someone stand behind you and make sure you had lined up perfect on every shot, would you?
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			I wouldn't - don't even like people helping me out with my line ( in fourball BB for example )
		
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No offence (your reply caught my eye) but in my experience it's mostly *miserable* golfers who have that mindset..... watch the Ryder Cup and see if pros don't help each other read putts. 4BBB is a TEAM game.


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## Allanxyz (Jan 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But he is assisting him with his alignment just as he is assisting him with his clubbing and distance etc 

You can't pick and choose.
		
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You can pick and choose can't you? That's what rules are for. I agree that alignment should be banned, the rest shouldn't be banned. I see it a little like the long putter ban... Not to get into that, but my guess the R&A don't like the look of it...so they ban it. Why not the same with the "right a bit, left a bit" alignment... It looks terrible for the game...ban it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

JustOne said:



			No offence (your reply caught my eye) but in my experience it's mostly *miserable* golfers who have that mindset..... watch the Ryder Cup and see if pros don't help each other read putts. 4BBB is a TEAM game.
		
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Miserable golfers ?! - sorry you will have to show me the connection between reading my own putts and being a miserable golfer ?


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## Allanxyz (Jan 19, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			yeah but when it is someone who you trust like a caddy that you have spent years working with, wouldn't you let him do it? I read something about how tour players say having a caddy helping them on shots and lining them up can save them 2 or 3 shots a round
		
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i'm not sure I would want them to... For one I'd have to explain all the time where I was actually aiming as it might not be the flag and maybe my stance is a little open Justin Rose style (ok it isn't...but it could be!)... Ok I guess your caddy would get to know this but if your a professional I think you should be fairly well practiced at aligning yourself.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

Allanxyz said:



			You can pick and choose can't you? That's what rules are for. I agree that alignment should be banned, the rest shouldn't be banned. I see it a little like the long putter ban... Not to get into that, but my guess the R&A don't like the look of it...so they ban it. Why not the same with the "right a bit, left a bit" alignment... It looks terrible for the game...ban it.
		
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Sorry I mean you can't pick and chose what rules you want banned - if you want the caddy to stop assisting the putting why not stop him assisting all aspects of the game 


And anytime I have seen a caddy help with alignment it's more a confidence check as opposed to the "left a bit , right a bit " - sorry but that's creating a false picture. And totally disagree with it looking terrible for golf


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



*But he is assisting him with his alignment* just as he is assisting him with his clubbing and distance etc 

You can't pick and choose.
		
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If I where to put down an alignment rod on the teeing ground during a stipulated round to help me line up, that would be a breach  of rule 14-3.  Why should a caddie lining you up be any different?!!!  :mmm:


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## JustOne (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			If I where to put down an alignment rod on the teeing ground during a stipulated round to help me line up, that would be a breach  of rule 14-3.  Why should a caddie lining you up be any different?!!!  :mmm:
		
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It isn't ....but it's currently in the rules.... so that's that.

Appreciate you wanting to change the rule but other than that your argument is going to go round in circles mate.


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## JustOne (Jan 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Miserable golfers ?! - sorry you will have to show me the connection between reading my own putts and being a miserable golfer ?
		
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As I said, just experience.


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## Allanxyz (Jan 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry I mean you can't pick and chose what rules you want banned - if you want the caddy to stop assisting the putting why not stop him assisting all aspects of the game 


And anytime I have seen a caddy help with alignment it's more a confidence check as opposed to the "left a bit , right a bit " - sorry but that's creating a false picture. And totally disagree with it looking terrible for golf
		
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I think you can pick and choose what rules you want banned... The rules of golf are pretty specific and it would be pretty easy to add "the caddy should not assist with alignment of the player".... I'm not sure why that's not possible.

hmm... I've seen Fernandez-castano being lined up and it looks suspiciously like that... What if the caddy stands behind and the player isn't on the right line... I'm pretty sure he says "right a touch", although I agree maybe not so often as I guess the player gets it right mostly.

i don't like the look of it, but appreciate most probably don't care.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			If I where to put down an alignment rod on the teeing ground during a stipulated round to help me line up, that would be a breach  of rule 14-3.  Why should a caddie lining you up be any different?!!!  :mmm:
		
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Correct that would be I breach because there is a physical object helping as opposed to a human eye which could provide error.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

JustOne said:



			As I said, just experience.
		
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Yes but please enlighten me about the connection because I have never seen miserable golfer connected to someone who wants to be In control of their own actions - and yes it's easy to take offence at a comment like that.


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## Fish (Jan 19, 2014)

Only because HIDID has died on its harris is Derek now posting the same topics here because he has worn everyone else down on HDID over the years to make that forum a non entity, you have been warned


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## JustOne (Jan 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes but please enlighten me about the connection because I have never seen miserable golfer connected to someone who wants to be In control of their own actions - and yes it's easy to take offence at a comment like that.
		
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If you're not a miserable golfer then there's no need to take offence 

My post was pertaining purely to the context of 4BBB where it's often important to communicate and to discuss thoughts/game plans rather than just making ones own judgement over every putt, tee shot and approach.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

JustOne said:



			If you're not a miserable golfer then there's no need to take offence 

My post was pertaining purely to the context of 4BBB where it's often important to communicate and to discuss thoughts/game plans rather than just making ones own judgement over every putt, tee shot and approach.
		
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Ah you see I only mentioned the putting - certainly communicate all the way through - it's a bit of a leap to go from just lining up a putt to everything else your mentioning though.


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## JustOne (Jan 19, 2014)

I'm just backing down as I can't be arsed with an argument. My observation stands though, but if that's not you (and you're so good that you'd never ask someone's opinion on your putting line when even the top pros do it) then that's fine.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

JustOne said:



			I'm just backing down as I can't be arsed with an argument. My observation stands though, but if that's not you (*and you're so good that you'd never ask someone's opinion on your putting line when even the top pros do it*) then that's fine.
		
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Backing down but yet feeling the need to have a little dig in there - did I state anywhere about me suggesting I'm that good I don't need someone's opinion on a putting line ? 

Everyone plays the game differently - I play the way I like to play it - enjoy myself without any worries nor taking it serious.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			BTW I see Rory McIlroy finished one shot off the lead in Abu Dhabi after picking up a 2 stroke penalty in round 3 for another stupid rule!
		
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McIlroy broke a rule that is extremely clearcut and is in place for a specific reason, he only has himself to blame. I really don't understand why you are calling it a stupid rule.

In fact, I really don't understand a lot of the things you come out with


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## doublebogey7 (Jan 19, 2014)

delc;982648

BTW I am renowned as being one of the straightest drivers at my club. My lining up technique consists of picking a spot on the ground over which I want the ball to pass said:



			So you are good at aligning yourself but want a rule change that may hinder others with theirs.  But you can't put so let's have a bigger hole.  Have I spotted something here!!
		
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## MadAdey (Jan 19, 2014)

drive4show said:



			In fact, I really don't understand a lot of the things you come out with  

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have to agree with you D4S, there does seem to be some right old dribble bring posted, some that is very argumentative too....


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## MadAdey (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			BTW I am renowned as being one of the straightest drivers at my club. My lining up technique consists of picking a spot on the ground over which I want the ball to pass, pointing the club face squarely at that point, and then aligning the rest of myself in relation to that. 

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So your one of those people that walk around the tee box looking for something to use an alignment aid, that doesn't waste time does it, In my eyes is it much different to having a caddy line you up? I know it is but it is still using something to aid your alignment


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## Allanxyz (Jan 19, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			have to agree with you D4S, there does seem to be some right old dribble bring posted, some that is very argumentative too....

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Not sure I understand this... Didn't Delc say that he thought the rule McIlroy got done for was stupid... Isn't that a valid opinion? McIlroy himself called it a silly rule, didn't he?


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

doublebogey7 said:



			So you are good at aligning yourself but want a rule change that may hinder others with theirs.  But you can't put so let's have a bigger hole.  Have I spotted something here!!
		
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One of the things that all good players should practice on the range is aligning themselves with the target line, using alignment rods or clubs to help with this. Would it be possible to have a poll on here asking if caddies should be allowed to line up their players, Yes or No?

And BTW, I am quite a good putter, averaging about 32 putts per round!


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## Fish (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			One of the things that all good players should practice on the range is aligning themselves with the target line, using alignment rods or clubs to help with this. Would it be possible to have a poll on here asking if caddies should be allowed to line up their players, Yes or No?

And BTW, I am quite a good putter, averaging about 32 putts per round!
		
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So your one of the straightest drivers in your club and a good putter, where does it all go wrong.......


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## MadAdey (Jan 19, 2014)

Fish said:



			So your one of the straightest drivers in your club and a good putter, where does it all go wrong.......
		
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I was wondering that...... Straight off the tee and a demon with the putter. But then Ido not know what his handicap is......


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			So your one of those people that walk around the tee box looking for something to use an alignment aid, that doesn't waste time does it, In my eyes is it much different to having a caddy line you up? I know it is but it is still using something to aid your alignment 

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Not really.  There's almost always an old divot, a distinctive coloured patch of grass, a forward tee marker, or something you can line up on. If all else fails, I pick a spot in the distance and aim the club face at that.


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## Fish (Jan 19, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			I was wondering that...... Straight off the tee and a demon with the putter. But then Ido not know what his handicap is......
		
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11 (10.6)


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## MadAdey (Jan 19, 2014)

Allanxyz said:



			Not sure I understand this... Didn't Delc say that he thought the rule McIlroy got done for was stupid... Isn't that a valid opinion? McIlroy himself called it a silly rule, didn't he?
		
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The only stupid thing is Rory. It is not an ambiguous situation that he has found himself in. Pretty standard straight forward rule IMO


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

Fish said:



			So your one of the straightest drivers in your club and a good putter, where does it all go wrong.......
		
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Somewhere in the middle!  You have played with me Robin, so you should know that my short game is not the best.


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## MadAdey (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			Somewhere in the middle!  You have played with me Robin, so you should know that my short game is not the best.
		
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I was wondering, how can you be good off the tee and with the putter and not be lower.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 19, 2014)

Allanxyz said:



			Not sure I understand this... Didn't Delc say that he thought the rule McIlroy got done for was stupid... Isn't that a valid opinion? McIlroy himself called it a silly rule, didn't he?
		
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When taking relief from GUR, the rule is very clear, you MUST take FULL relief. McIlroy had his foot on the white line. I don't see how anyone can argue with that.


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## Allanxyz (Jan 19, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			The only stupid thing is Rory. It is not an ambiguous situation that he has found himself in. Pretty standard straight forward rule IMO
		
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drive4show said:



			When taking relief from GUR, the rule is very clear, you MUST take FULL relief. McIlroy had his foot on the white line. I don't see how anyone can argue with that.
		
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I understand the rule, it's clear and he deserved to be penalised. I haven't said anything to go against this. I don't understand the stick Delc is getting for calling this rule stupid when McIlroy himself said it was silly. To say a rule is stupid isn't so say it's not clear. I've personally got nothing against the rule, but I don't see what's wrong with having an opinion that the rule is stupid.


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			The only stupid thing is Rory. It is not an ambiguous situation that he has found himself in. Pretty standard straight forward rule IMO
		
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I don't know what the conditions of competition were, but I understand that Rory took a drop from a spectator walkway. I believe that in many tournaments players can play from these if they choose,  but in this case it was designated as GUR. Rory dropped rather close to the GUR line so that one of his feet was touching or on it when he took his stance. Therefore he hadn't taken complete relief from the GUR and got a 2-stroke penalty for this, I think under rule 25-1b, but a rather obscure ruling.


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## Fish (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			Somewhere in the middle!  You have played with me Robin, so you should know that my short game is not the best.
		
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Long time ago that was now Derek, we all change and either improve or go off the boil in places :smirk:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 19, 2014)

Allanxyz said:



			I understand the rule, it's clear and he deserved to be penalised. I haven't said anything to go against this. *I don't understand the stick Delc is getting for calling this rule stupid when McIlroy himself said it was silly*. To say a rule is stupid isn't so say it's not clear. I've personally got nothing against the rule, but I don't see what's wrong with having an opinion that the rule is stupid.
		
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OK...so he takes his drop correctly and his follow through is blocked by a tree so he has to chip out sideways. But if he drops 1ft away and is standing on the line, he now has a clear shot to the green.

Hypothetical situation but is it now still a silly rule?


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## BTatHome (Jan 19, 2014)

Funny thing was that didn't I read that he said his drop was a quite poor lie and getting another would have been better for him !


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

Fish said:



			Long time ago that was now Derek, we all change and either improve or go off the boil in places :smirk:
		
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What's your handicap down to now?


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## Fish (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			What's your handicap down to now?
		
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Your on HDID enough to see it, been cut 4.9 shots this year so far but, got a few 0.1's back on, although I'm contesting 2 x 0.1s at opens elsewhere where we didn't finish the course due to slow play in front and the last 3 holes being played in pitch black! 

I'm hopeful of a good season in 2014.


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

Fish said:



			Your on HDID enough to see it, been cut 4.9 shots this year so far but, got a few 0.1's back on, although I'm contesting 2 x 0.1s at opens elsewhere where we didn't finish the course due to slow play in front and the last 3 holes being played in pitch black! 

I'm hopeful of a good season in 2014.
		
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Well done on the cuts mate!  I see from HDID that your handicap is 20.3. I got down from 12 to 10.2 last year, but have crept back up to 10.6 in the last couple of months due to just missing the buffer zone in 4 qualifiers.  Good luck for the coming season!


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## Fish (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			Good luck for the coming season!
		
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Thank you :thup:


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## Allanxyz (Jan 19, 2014)

drive4show said:



			OK...so he takes his drop correctly and his follow through is blocked by a tree so he has to chip out sideways. But if he drops 1ft away and is standing on the line, he now has a clear shot to the green.

Hypothetical situation but is it now still a silly rule?
		
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As I said, I've nothing against the rule, just not sure why people are getting so uptight about somebody having an opinion about it.

however in my opinion your example isn't a case for the rule not being stupid. I'd say the better case would be that GUR is GUR for a reason and people shouldn't be standing in it to make their stroke. In your example if the rule didn't exist then the person takes the drop, stands on the line and is or isn't blocked by a tree... It could be the other way round, drop incorrectly under the rule and you are blocked by a tree, drop correctly and you are not blocked. Whether you are blocked by a tree has nothing to do with whether the rule is stupid in my opinion.


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## BTatHome (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			I don't know what the conditions of competition were, but I understand that Rory took a drop from a spectator walkway. I believe that in many tournaments players can play from these if they choose,  but in this case it was designated as GUR. Rory dropped rather close to the GUR line so that one of his feet was touching or on it when he took his stance. Therefore he hadn't taken complete relief from the GUR and got a 2-stroke penalty for this, I think under rule 25-1b, but a rather obscure ruling.
		
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Surely he could of just played from the GUR if he wanted? Didn't see any mention of the GUR having a mandate saying he must take a drop?


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## Fish (Jan 19, 2014)

BTatHome said:



			Surely he could of just played from the GUR if he wanted? Didn't see any mention of the GUR having a mandate saying he must take a drop?
		
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We discussed this in the bar today, unless we are not privy to any specific rules for the tournament, we all believed to save any issues in the future, more so if the ball is perfectly playable, just play it from the GUR as your allowed to do!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 19, 2014)

Allanxyz said:



			As I said, I've nothing against the rule, just not sure why people are getting so uptight about somebody having an opinion about it.

however in my opinion your example isn't a case for the rule not being stupid. I'd say the better case would be that GUR is GUR for a reason and people shouldn't be standing in it to make their stroke. In your example if the rule didn't exist then the person takes the drop, stands on the line and is or isn't blocked by a tree... It could be the other way round, drop incorrectly under the rule and you are blocked by a tree, drop correctly and you are not blocked. Whether you are blocked by a tree has nothing to do with whether the rule is stupid in my opinion.
		
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The rule isn't stupid, it is there for a reason. It's been there for a very long time and has been administered by people with a lot better understanding of the game than you or me. Feel free to consider it stupid if you wish but there is a reason for the rule. If you think the rules of golf are stupid maybe you should consider a different pastime.


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

BTatHome said:



			Surely he could of just played from the GUR if he wanted? Didn't see any mention of the GUR having a mandate saying he must take a drop?
		
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You *have* to take full relief from GUR and this includes your stance, which is what Rory fell foul of.


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## EuanRoss (Jan 19, 2014)

His foot was touching the line, that is against the rules, end of story.


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

EuanRoss said:



			His foot was touching the line, that is against the rules, end of story.
		
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Why I and Rory thought the ruling was silly in this case, was that he was taking relief from a spectator walkway, which would not normally be regarded as GUR.  I presume that this was a condition of competition for this tournament.


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## BTatHome (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			You *have* to take full relief from GUR and this includes your stance, which is what Rory fell foul of.
		
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No idea why you highlighted that word ... if you had written a word such as 'must' and then highlighted then I may have considered it more appropriate, but the word highlighted is not really that useful in a rules discussion, were words like must/may are generally used.

Anyway, your wrong. 

Unless the GUR rule states that relief *must* be taken then the player has the option of playing it as it lies, or taking full relief.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			Why I and Rory thought the ruling was silly in this case, was that he was taking relief from a spectator walkway, which would not normally be regarded as GUR.  I presume that this was a condition of competition for this tournament.
		
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It really doesn't matter what the reason for the GUR is, if the tournament committee has made the decision then the players abide by it. End of.


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## Allanxyz (Jan 19, 2014)

drive4show said:



			The rule isn't stupid, it is there for a reason. It's been there for a very long time and has been administered by people with a lot better understanding of the game than you or me. Feel free to consider it stupid if you wish but there is a reason for the rule. If you think the rules of golf are stupid maybe you should consider a different pastime.
		
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I'm not sure how many times I have to point out that I don't have an issue with the rule. I was just pointing out that the example you gave didn't prove or disprove that the rule is or isn't silly.

Rules change, the R&A change rules, despite them being there for a reason as you say. The fact there is a reason also doesn't say much about the stupidity of a rule... Maybe a couple of years ago you would have argued that the rule stating you can't rake a bunker for purposes of caring for the course before a shot in that bunker is there for a reason and administered by people that know more about golf than us.... That rule has changed, so what happened? 

There are some rules which I find a bit strange in golf or would prefer changed, I think it's ridiculous in the extreme to suggest I should give up the game for that reason.


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

Allanxyz said:



			I'm not sure how many times I have to point out that I don't have an issue with the rule. I was just pointing out that the example you gave didn't prove or disprove that the rule is or isn't silly.

Rules change, the R&A change rules, despite them being there for a reason as you say. The fact there is a reason also doesn't say much about the stupidity of a rule... Maybe a couple of years ago you would have argued that the rule stating you can't rake a bunker for purposes of caring for the course before a shot in that bunker is there for a reason and administered by people that know more about golf than us.... That rule has changed, so what happened? 

There are some rules which I find a bit strange in golf or would prefer changed, I think it's ridiculous in the extreme to suggest I should give up the game for that reason.
		
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I think that some people are still miffed that the stymie rule was changed!  The Rules of Golf were not written by God or Moses on tablets of stone, so can be changed by ordinary mortals in the light of experience! :mmm:


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## rickg (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			The Rules of Golf were not written by God or Moses on tablets of stone, so can be changed by ordinary mortals in the light of experience! :mmm:
		
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And they are....on a regular basis.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 19, 2014)

Allanxyz said:



			I was just pointing out that the example you gave didn't prove or disprove that the rule is or isn't silly.




			:mmm:

What does that mean?
		
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Click to expand...


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

rickg said:



			And they are....on a regular basis.
		
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Well once every four years anyway, with maybe a few decisions in between!


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## Allanxyz (Jan 19, 2014)

drive4show said:





Allanxyz said:



			I was just pointing out that the example you gave didn't prove or disprove that the rule is or isn't silly.




			:mmm:

What does that mean?
		
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It means that this example doesn't prove the rule is silly or not, it just shows that if the rule exists then not following it could be unfair. But it says nothing about the rule itself.. In my opinion.



drive4show said:



			OK...so he takes his drop correctly and his follow through is blocked by a tree so he has to chip out sideways. But if he drops 1ft away and is standing on the line, he now has a clear shot to the green.


Hypothetical situation but is it now still a silly rule?
		
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Click to expand...



Click to expand...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 19, 2014)

Allanxyz said:





drive4show said:





Allanxyz said:



			I was just pointing out that the example you gave didn't prove or disprove that the rule is or isn't silly.

Pit means that this example doesn't prove the rule is silly or not, it just shows that if the rule exists then not following it could be unfair. But it says nothing about the rule itself.. In my opinion.
		
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Actually I thought it was a crystal clear example of why you have to drop in the correct place, maybe you just don't seem to understand the importance of doing so? As I said, the tournament committee declared an area of ground as GUR, I'm sure they had their reasons for doing so. If a player then drops incorrectly he may gain an advantage or a disadvantage but either way, the rules have to be followed.
		
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Click to expand...


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## Allanxyz (Jan 19, 2014)

drive4show said:





Allanxyz said:





drive4show said:



			Actually I thought it was a crystal clear example of why you have to drop in the correct place, maybe you just don't seem to understand the importance of doing so? As I said, the tournament committee declared an area of ground as GUR, I'm sure they had their reasons for doing so. If a player then drops incorrectly he may gain an advantage or a disadvantage but either way, the rules have to be followed.
		
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maybe you're not reading my earlier posts, you are certainly missing my point. I said McIlroy was correctly penalized and I understand why. You have to play by the rules as they are. I agree, the rules have to be followed.

this, however does not mean you have to agree with the rule, or that you can't think of it as stupid. 

The two things are in no way connected, playing by the rules and having an opinion that the rule is silly.
		
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Click to expand...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 19, 2014)

So why do you think the rule is stupid then?


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## Allanxyz (Jan 19, 2014)

drive4show said:



			So why do you think the rule is stupid then?
		
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See my previous post



Allanxyz said:



			I understand the rule, it's clear and he deserved to be penalised. I haven't said anything to go against this. I don't understand the stick Delc is getting for calling this rule stupid when McIlroy himself said it was silly. To say a rule is stupid isn't so say it's not clear. I've personally got nothing against the rule, but I don't see what's wrong with having an opinion that the rule is stupid.
		
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As I've said previously, obviously not clearly enough..
1. I've nothing against the rule itself
2. McIlroy was right to be penalised
3. Having an opinion on a rule shouldn't be jumped upon as if it's anti-golf
4. Your example shows that this rule must be enforced (which I agree with) but says nothing to it's stupidity or lack thereof

You'l have to ask Delc why he made the comment about the rule being stupid...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 19, 2014)

If you've got nothing against the rule, why do you keep going on about it?


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## chrisd (Jan 19, 2014)

Allanxyz said:



			You'l have to ask Delc why he made the comment about the rule being stupid...
		
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I don't think any of us have any plans to do that!

I might just start a poll on which rule he thinks is stupid after this one, I just get the feeling Del needs to get out more!


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

Allanxyz said:



			See my previous post



As I've said previously, obviously not clearly enough..
1. I've nothing against the rule itself
2. McIlroy was right to be penalised
3. Having an opinion on a rule shouldn't be jumped upon as if it's anti-golf
4. Your example shows that this rule must be enforced (which I agree with) but says nothing to it's stupidity or lack thereof

You'l have to ask Delc why he made the comment about the rule being stupid...
		
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Because I think that relief from a spectator walkway should be optional (as I understand it normally is), rather than compulsory in the form of GUR. However Rory M did definitely infringe rule 25-1b as it stood.  :mmm:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			Because I think that relief from a spectator walkway should be optional (as I understand it normally is), rather than compulsory in the form of GUR. However Rory M did infringe the rule as it stood.
		
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I think spectators should throw wayward shots back onto the fairway but not many people would agree with such a rule


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I don't think any of us have any plans to do that!

I might just start a poll on which rule he thinks is stupid after this one, I just get the feeling Del needs to get out more!
		
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Can you start a poll about which rule Delc wants to change next


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## BTatHome (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			Because I think that relief from a spectator walkway should be optional (as I understand it normally is), rather than compulsory in the form of GUR. However Rory M did definitely infringe rule 25-1b as it stood.  :mmm:
		
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Why do you think its compulsory? You clearly choose to ignore posts you don't like.


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I don't think any of us have any plans to do that!

I might just start a poll on which rule he thinks is stupid after this one, I just get the feeling Del needs to get out more!
		
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How about a poll on the original subject of this thread?  Should caddies be able to line up their players by standing behind the line of play?  Yes or No?


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

BTatHome said:



			Why do you think its compulsory? You clearly choose to ignore posts you don't like.
		
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If his ball was lying in an area marked as GUR with white lines, then taking relief from it IS compulsory!


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## chrisd (Jan 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can you start a poll about which rule Delc wants to change next 

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I'm just thankful he hasn't argued about DMDs - can you imagine him and SILH on the same bandwagon together??


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 19, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I'm just thankful he hasn't argued about DMDs - can you imagine him and SILH on the same bandwagon together?? 

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That could be the prize !! A round with them whilst you use your DMD , putt into normal size holes and get someone to caddy for you and let them help line up your putts - imagine the fun


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## chris661 (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			If his ball was lying in an area marked as GUR with white lines, then taking relief from it IS compulsory!  

Click to expand...

No it isn't. I suggest rather than moan about rules you don't like, you actually read some.


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## Colin L (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			If his ball was lying in an area marked as GUR with white lines, then taking relief from it IS compulsory!  

Click to expand...

Can you reference the rule which says that, please?  I have this strange idea it doesn't exist.  Your  and I raise you


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

Colin L said:



			Can you reference the rule which says that, please?  I have this strange idea it doesn't exist.  Your  and I raise you  

Click to expand...

Rule 25-1b(ii) states that a ball lying in an abnormal ground condition (includes GUR) through the green MUST be lifted and dropped without penalty within one clublength, not nearer the hole, from the nearest point of relief.


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## chris661 (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			Rule 25-1b(ii) states that a ball lying in an abnormal ground condition (includes GUR) through the green MUST be lifted and dropped without penalty within one clublength, not nearer the hole, from the nearest point of relief.
		
Click to expand...

Em no it doesnt.


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## delc (Jan 19, 2014)

What does it say then? I have always understood that it is compulsory to take a drop from GUR as the rule includes the word 'must'. One of the few situations when you don't have the option of playing the ball as it lies.


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## chris661 (Jan 19, 2014)

delc said:



			What does it say then? I have always understood that it is compulsory to take a drop from GUR as the rule includes the word 'must'. One of the few situations when you don't have the option of playing the ball as it lies.
		
Click to expand...

Here is an idea, instead of telling me what it says when you don't actually know, go and read up the rules THEN come back to me. 

I will give you a hint though "local rule" & "may" are involved. 

So instead of being all high and mighty read a rule book. It might actually help.


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

OK, so under the definition of Ground Under Repair, a committee may make a local rule prohibiting play from Ground Under Repair, which implies that this is not automatically the case. However this is irrelevant to the original thread, which was about rule 14-2b!


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## ger147 (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			OK, so under the definition of Ground Under Repair, a committee may make a local rule prohibiting play from Ground Under Repair, which implies that this is not automatically the case. However this is irrelevant to the original thread, which was about rule 14-2b!
		
Click to expand...

It was you who brought the Rory penalty up.  So why did you mention it?


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## chris661 (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			OK, so under the definition of Ground Under Repair, a committee may make a local rule prohibiting play from Ground Under Repair, which implies that this is not automatically the case. However this is irrelevant to the original thread, which was about rule 14-2b!
		
Click to expand...

So why are you droning on about 25-1b(ii) then?

Maybe it is time you stopped with the crappy rules threads and engaged in some normal threads. They do get tiresome pretty quickly especially when you don't get your own way.


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## rickg (Jan 20, 2014)

Derek, I think the phrase you are searching for is_* "sorry.....you were right and I was wrong"*_
Although never having heard it before, I won't hold my breath.


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

chris661 said:



			So why are you droning on about 25-1b(ii) then?
		
Click to expand...

Because that is the rule that relates to relief from abnormal ground conditions, including GUR, and probably the rule that Rory McIlroy infringed!


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## Colin L (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			What does it say then? I have always understood that it is compulsory to take a drop from GUR as the rule includes the word 'must'. One of the few situations when you don't have the option of playing the ball as it lies.
		
Click to expand...

I wonder then how many times you've been in GUR and missed the opportunity to get a better deal by playing the ball as it lies. I can see where you have misunderstood 25-1b.  If you look at the first sentence, it tells us that we _may_ take relief - therefore we don't have to 

_Except when the ball is in a water hazard or a lateral water hazard, a player *may* take relief from interference by an abnormal ground condition as follows ........._

Then _must_ in the next bit tells us what we have to do_ if_  we choose to take relief - i.e. the method of taking relief is mandatory, but taking it is not.

_(i)Through the Green: If the ball lies through the green, the player *must* lift the ball and drop it, without penalty, within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief._

The Committee can introduce the Local Rule you refer to in order to make it mandatory to take relief from a particular GUR - for example to prohibit play from a newly seeded area that needs protection.  Without it, taking relief is optional.

Now you can go out there, get into a normal area of GUR and astonish your friends by playing your ball as it lies :thup:


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

Colin L said:



			I wonder then how many times you've been in GUR and missed the opportunity to get a better deal by playing the ball as it lies. I can see where you have misunderstood 25-1b.  If you look at the first sentence, it tells us that we _may_ take relief - therefore we don't have to 

_Except when the ball is in a water hazard or a lateral water hazard, a player *may* take relief from interference by an abnormal ground condition as follows ........._

Then _must_ in the next bit tells us what we have to do_ if_  we choose to take relief - i.e. the method of taking relief is mandatory, but taking it is not.

_(i)Through the Green: If the ball lies through the green, the player *must* lift the ball and drop it, without penalty, within one club-length of and not nearer the hole than the nearest point of relief._

The Committee can introduce the Local Rule you refer to in order to make it mandatory to take relief from a particular GUR - for example to prohibit play from a newly seeded area that needs protection.  Without it, taking relief is optional.

Now you can go out there, get into a normal area of GUR and astonish your friends by playing your ball as it lies :thup:
		
Click to expand...

Generally speaking GUR is there to allow a damaged part of the course to recover, so I would prefer not to play from it, even if I am allowed to do so within the rules.


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

Re. Rory McIlroy penalty:

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/rory-reacts-2-stroke-penalty/

It seems that he took optional relief from the spectator walkway, but just failed to take full relief.


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## chrisd (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			Generally speaking GUR is there to allow a damaged part of the course to recover, so I would prefer not to play from it, even if I am allowed to do so within the rules.
		
Click to expand...

Ah. Del my old fruit, what YOU would PREFER to do is pretty irrelevant in the reading of rules. It would be great if you actually got your facts right before posting on rules here cos, believe me, there is no way that an error in stating or interpreting rules is going to be passed over on this forum, there are some real knowledgeable rules experts on here.

As they say, "it's always better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than open it and remove all doubt" and another saying comes to mind " when in a hole stop digging" so, just check what you write Del, it'll make your life easier on here!


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## BTatHome (Jan 20, 2014)

Apology accepted ..... oh !


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## HawkeyeMS (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			What does it say then? I have always understood that it is compulsory to take a drop from GUR as the rule includes the word 'must'. One of the few situations when you don't have the option of playing the ball as it lies.
		
Click to expand...

The man who wants all the rules changed doesn't understand the rules, you couldn't make it up


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## Allanxyz (Jan 20, 2014)

drive4show said:



			If you've got nothing against the rule, why do you keep going on about it? 

Click to expand...

To be honest I was pretty happy with my first post on it!! (where I made it clear I had nothing against the rule), I've then felt compelled to reply  

It's off topic in any case... so let's leave it there, I don't think we actually disagree on much, as I agree that rules if they exist (agree or disagree with them) should be enforced..


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

I knew that in the casual water case, you can either play the ball as it lies, or take full or maximum available relief. I guess that at my previous club, where I learnt the rules, we must have had the local rule that prohibited play from GUR, so wrongly assumed that it applied everywhere. I did know that the one club length relief includes your stance if your back is is to the AGC, which many players don't seem to know, and is what seems to have caught out Rory. Will you accept that rule 25-1 is confusingly written and that you have to read it in conjunction with the definition of Ground Under Repair. I apologise if I have misled anybody!  I thought I was pretty knowlegable on the rules, so this proves that you can always learn more!

Now can we get back to rule 14-2b, which is the main subject of this thread please?


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## chris661 (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			I knew that in the casual water case, you can either play the ball as it lies, or take full or maximum available relief. I guess that at my previous club, where I learnt the rules, we must have had the local rule that prohibited play from GUR, so wrongly assumed that it applied everywhere. I did know that the one club length relief includes your stance if your back is is to the AGC, which many players don't seem to know, and is what seems to have caught out Rory. Will you accept that rule 25-1 is confusingly written and that you have to read it in conjunction with the definition of Ground Under Repair. I apologise if I have misled anybody!  I thought I was pretty knowlegable on the rules, so this proves that you can always learn more!

Now can we get back to rule 14-2b, which is the main subject of this thread please?
		
Click to expand...

:rofl: still nothing like "I was wrong. Sorry" but the rules are confusingly written. :rofl: 

You have just joined a very exclusive list on here for me. Enjoy the rest of your time moaning about rules you don't even know properly. Unbelievable.


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## DCB (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			I did know that the one club length relief includes your stance if your back is is to the AGC, which many players don't seem to know, and is what seems to have caught out Rory.
		
Click to expand...

Confused by this statement, what's your stance got to do with it ?


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

chris661 said:



			:rofl: still nothing like "I was wrong. Sorry" but the rules are confusingly written. :rofl: 

You have just joined a very exclusive list on here for me. Enjoy the rest of your time moaning about rules you don't even know properly. Unbelievable.
		
Click to expand...

I did apologise! What do you want? Blood?  Now what about rule 14-2b and decision 14-2/1?


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## Colin L (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			Generally speaking GUR is there to allow a damaged part of the course to recover, so I would prefer not to play from it, even if I am allowed to do so within the rules.
		
Click to expand...

Del,
I have a rule not to react to nonsense on internet forums, not to show annoyance at individuals, not to get involved in disputes.......
...but I'm about to break it.

My explanation of how you were mistaken and why you might have been mistaken was, I think, comprehensive, polite and helpful. 

Your reply is a breathtakingly evasive leap, a shifting of ground of earthquake proportions.  You are completely mistaken about a Rule and get short shrift from a number of posters for doing so.  There is obviously a history but I think to myself, don't get into that, just explain the rule so that Del can now get it right.  So I  take the time and trouble to work out the probable cause of the mistake and go into some detail to explain it.  Now I don't look for abundant praise and gratitude for that, but a wee thank you would have been good.  You know, nothing expansive, maybe just along the simple lines of "Thanks for that , Colin.... "

Fortunately, the way in which you skite rapidly sideways away from being wrong into some sort of oblique hint that you weren't really wrong, you just "prefer" to care for the condition of your course is so outrageous it is funny.  And even funnier is the  wriggling away from being wrong by blaming the wording of the Rule.  The wording and structuring of the Rule is quite clear, as I hope I showed above.

Del, there is nothing wrong in being wrong.  We all make mistakes with the rules of golf.  I've done it in this forum (and others).  So what.  You get corrected, you get a red face, you learn ...... and you show a little appreciation to those from whom you have learned.

There now, I feel better for breaking my internet rules for once and will now award your points

For grace, good humour and willingness to learn when shown to be wrong 2/10
For entertainment value 10/10


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

DCB said:



			Confused by this statement, what's your stance got to do with it ?
		
Click to expand...

You must not stand within the condition you are taking relief from (unless there is a local rule to that effect, or you are taking maximum available relief). There are some pretty pictures of this on the R&A website, so why don't you take a look? By the way, this is what Rory McIlroy got penalised for in Abu Dhabi, He dropped outside the GUR line, but close enough that one or both of his heels where on the line when he took his stance.


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## DCB (Jan 20, 2014)

so how can the one club length relief include your stance.......


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

Colin L said:



			Del,
I have a rule not to react to nonsense on internet forums, not to show annoyance at individuals, not to get involved in disputes.......
...but I'm about to break it.

My explanation of how you were mistaken and why you might have been mistaken was, I think, comprehensive, polite and helpful. 

Your reply is a breathtakingly evasive leap, a shifting of ground of earthquake proportions.  You are completely mistaken about a Rule and get short shrift from a number of posters for doing so.  There is obviously a history but I think to myself, don't get into that, just explain the rule so that Del can now get it right.  So I  take the time and trouble to work out the probable cause of the mistake and go into some detail to explain it.  Now I don't look for abundant praise and gratitude for that, but a wee thank you would have been good.  You know, nothing expansive, maybe just along the simple lines of "Thanks for that , Colin.... "

Fortunately, the way in which you skite rapidly sideways away from being wrong into some sort of oblique hint that you weren't really wrong, you just "prefer" to care for the condition of your course is so outrageous it is funny.  And even funnier is the  wriggling away from being wrong by blaming the wording of the Rule.  The wording and structuring of the Rule is quite clear, as I hope I showed above.

Del, there is nothing wrong in being wrong.  We all make mistakes with the rules of golf.  I've done it in this forum (and others).  So what.  You get corrected, you get a red face, you learn ...... and you show a little appreciation to those from whom you have learned.

There now, I feel better for breaking my internet rules for once and will now award your points

For grace, good humour and willingness to learn when shown to be wrong 2/10
For entertainment value 10/10
		
Click to expand...

I explained why my interpretation of this particular rule was incorrect, which was a local rule at my previous club prohibiting play from an area marked GUR, which I assumed to be universal. I will now go and read the local rules pinned up on a notice board at my present club to see what applies there. In any case GUR is usually marked either to allow a damaged area to recover, or because it would be unreasonable to expect a player to play from the condition. So there is almost always a justification for taking a free drop from GUR, even if you don't strictly have to within the rules.


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## Fyldewhite (Jan 20, 2014)

DCB said:



			so how can the one club length relief include your stance.......
		
Click to expand...

He means "Nearest Point of Relief" but "....the one club length relief includes your stance..." is close enough surely?


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## Twire (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			I explained why my interpretation of this particular rule was incorrect, which was a local rule at my previous club prohibiting play from an area marked GUR, which I assumed to be universal. I will now go and read the local rules pinned up on a notice board at my present club to see what applies there. In any case GUR is usually marked either to allow a damaged area to recover, or because it would be unreasonable to expect a player to play from the condition. So there is almost always a justification for taking a free drop from GUR, even if you don't strictly have to within the rules.
		
Click to expand...


Areas are marked GUR for many reasons. If you have an option to play from GUR surely the best thing to do is make a decision on a case for case basis rather than a blanket "it's GUR I'm taking a drop". If you look at the back of your score card you'll probably find the local rule your after reference GUR.

Sometimes Del, it's just best to hold your hands up and admit your wrong rather than trying to wriggle out of it. You'll gain a lot more respect that way.


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## Colin L (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			I explained why my interpretation of this particular rule was incorrect, which was a local rule at my previous club prohibiting play from an area marked GUR, which I assumed to be universal. I will now go and read the local rules pinned up on a notice board at my present club to see what applies there. In any case GUR is usually marked either to allow a damaged area to recover, or because it would be unreasonable to expect a player to play from the condition. So there is almost always a justification for taking a free drop from GUR, even if you don't strictly have to within the rules.
		
Click to expand...

I'm seldom at a loss for words but ........


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

DCB said:



			so how can the one club length relief include your stance.......
		
Click to expand...

It can't!  You determine your nearest point of relief, which includes your stance and the club you intend to use for your next shot, and then you have one club length from there, not nearer the hole etc. See decision 24-2b/1. 

In simple terms if you are facing whatever it is you are taking relief from (using your normal stance), you drop within one club length of that. If the condition is behind you, you take your normal stance with your heels close to but not touching the condition or line, and using the club you intend to use for your next shot. Then mark where the club head sits and then use the same club to mark out one further club length. You have to drop within that second mark.


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## Fyldewhite (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			It can't!  You determine your nearest point of relief, which includes your stance and the club you intend to use for your next shot, and then you have one club length from there, not nearer the hole etc. See decision 24-2b/1. 

In simple terms if you are facing whatever it is you are taking relief from (using your normal stance), you drop within one club length of that. If the condition is behind you, you take your normal stance with your heels close to but not touching the condition or line, and using the club you intend to use for your next shot. Then mark where the club head sits and then use *any* club to mark out one further club length. You have to drop within that second mark. 

Click to expand...

I've amended that for you


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## DCB (Jan 20, 2014)

Fyldewhite said:



			He means "Nearest Point of Relief" but "....the one club length relief includes your stance..." is close enough surely? 

Click to expand...

Once the NPR is identified the ball must be dropped within one clublength of the point of NPR and no nearer the hole.  It can roll up two further clublengths from the point where the ball first landed again, no nearer the hole.

One of the situations where the rules are there to help and in many cases not used to gain all the help they allow.


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

Perhaps the diagram in this link would help:

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-A...cisionId=78FB0CF3-8F4A-44DF-B7F0-906DC1B2CD31


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

Fyldewhite said:



			I've amended that for you
		
Click to expand...

Thanks. I had forgetten that you can use any club to measure from the NPR.  By the way, I believe that if you originally intended to use a fairway wood, but drop the ball into an awful lie and have to use a wedge, there is no penalty for using a shorter club than was used to determine the NPR.


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## chris661 (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			It can't!  You determine your nearest point of relief, which includes your stance and the club you intend to use for your next shot, and then you have one club length from there, not nearer the hole etc. See decision 24-2b/1. 

In simple terms if you are facing whatever it is you are taking relief from (using your normal stance), you drop within one club length of that. If the condition is behind you, you take your normal stance with your heels close to but not touching the condition or line, and using the club you intend to use for your next shot. Then mark where the club head sits and then use the same club to mark out one further club length. You have to drop within that second mark. 

Click to expand...

Surely you mean any club to measure the one club length. Or is this another thing you have made up to suit your argument. I suggest you actually read a rule book (or at least the bits you want to argue about) before proclaiming to "know" what is what with the rules. 

Frankly you are making yourself look quite silly with your attitude.


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## Fyldewhite (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			Perhaps the diagram in this link would help:

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-A...cisionId=78FB0CF3-8F4A-44DF-B7F0-906DC1B2CD31

Click to expand...

I'm a little confused as to who needs or has asked for help. For the avoidance of doubt, I'm fine with the rules regarding where to drop. My earlier post about the "one clublength includes your stance" statement in post 140 was aimed at pointing out that the terminology used was a little confusing for anyone reading it when what you meant was "NPR includes your stance".

I also pointed out that your explanation in post 151 was simply wrong in that you do not have to use the "same club" to measure the clublength.


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

chris661 said:



			Surely you mean any club to measure the one club length. Or is this another thing you have made up to suit your argument. I suggest you actually read a rule book (or at least the bits you want to argue about) before proclaiming to "know" what is what with the rules. 

Frankly you are making yourself look quite silly with your attitude.
		
Click to expand...

Generally I am pretty good with the rules, and am disappointed if I don't get at least 9 out of 10 right in any rules quiz. However nobody's perfect (except John Paramor) and that minor error was pointed out and apologised for in post #155.


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

Fyldewhite said:



			I'm a little confused as to who needs or has asked for help. For the avoidance of doubt, I'm fine with the rules regarding where to drop. My earlier post about the "one clublength includes your stance" statement in post 140 was aimed at pointing out that the terminology used was a little confusing for anyone reading it when what you meant was "NPR includes your stance".

I also pointed out that your explanation in post 151 was simply wrong in that you do not have to use the "same club" to measure the clublength.
		
Click to expand...

I have already apologized for that minor error, so what's your problem?


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## chrisd (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			Generally I am pretty good with the rules
		
Click to expand...


Good at what?

Wanting them all changed or not understanding them??


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## chris661 (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			Generally I am pretty good with the rules, and am disappointed if I don't get at least 9 out of 10 right in any rules quiz. However nobody's perfect (except John Paramor) and that minor error was pointed out and apologised for in post #155. 

Click to expand...

You have argued twice about a rule and twice been wrong. That doesn't come across as pretty good with the rules. Anyway I am out of this as I feel like I will only end up beating my head against a wall. Enjoy your pointless arguments


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

Any chance of getting back to rule 14-2b, which was the original topic guys?  How do you organise a poll on here, as I would like to know in general what folks think about caddies lining up their players from behind the line of play. I and quite a few people I know don't like it, but we may not be representative of the whole golfing community.  :mmm:


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## HawkeyeMS (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			Any chance of getting back to rule 14-2b, which was the original topic guys?  How do you organise a poll on here, as I would like to in general what folks think about caddies lining up their players from behind the line of play. I and quite a few people I know don't like it, but we may not be representative of the whole golfing community.  :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

I would tell you as it's easy to do but I fear for the forum if you learn how to do it so I'm not telling


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## Fyldewhite (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			I have already apologized for that minor error, so what's your problem? 

Click to expand...

I haven't got a problem. I was just replying to your post pointing at the diagrams which "may help" in order to clarify that if it was aimed at me I was fine with the rule. This crossed with your post acknowledging your error so thanks for that.


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## Fish (Jan 20, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I would tell you as it's easy to do but I fear for the forum if you learn how to do it so I'm not telling 

Click to expand...

:thup:


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I would tell you as it's easy to do but I fear for the forum if you learn how to do it so I'm not telling 

Click to expand...

Why? I am not going to do it every day. Just interested to know how people feel about this particular issue!  I can't find any obvious button that says 'organise poll'  :mmm:


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## Fyldewhite (Jan 20, 2014)

OK, back to the OP. Caddies checking alignment. I don't have a problem with it. Caddies are there to help the player, there's no appreciable impact on the time taken and on the whole only a minority do this in the women's game so it would IMO be change for changes sake.


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## DCB (Jan 20, 2014)

Back to OP, don't see a problem with this. Discussed line of putt with my partner in pairs matches many a time. Don't see it as an issue.


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## Fish (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			Why? I am not going to do it every day. Just interested to know how people feel about this particular issue!  I can't find any obvious button that says 'organise poll'  :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

When you post normally, look further down the page and tic the 'Poll' box, this also asks you how many options in the poll you want and off you go.

Sorry guys :smirk:


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## Fish (Jan 20, 2014)

DCB said:



			Back to OP, don't see a problem with this. Discussed line of putt with my partner in pairs matches many a time. Don't see it as an issue.
		
Click to expand...

Ditto, in my winter league match yesterday we both discussed the line and how it may break with each other. No issues.


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## One Planer (Jan 20, 2014)

Fish said:



			When you post normally, look further down the page and tic the 'Poll' box, this also asks you how many options in the poll you want and off you go.

Sorry guys :smirk:
		
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Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!


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## Fish (Jan 20, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
		
Click to expand...

I just can't wait to see the 1st one, and then the one after that, and that, and that, and that :rofl:


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

DCB said:



			Back to OP, don't see a problem with this. Discussed line of putt with my partner in pairs matches many a time. Don't see it as an issue.
		
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That's OK with me, as long as you don't line him up from behind the line of play. Incidentally decision 14-2/1 only mentions a playing partner being able to line up a player, so I wonder if it's even legal for a caddie to do this? :mmm:


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

Fish said:



			When you post normally, look further down the page and tic the 'Poll' box, this also asks you how many options in the poll you want and off you go.

Sorry guys :smirk:
		
Click to expand...

I still can't find this wretched box. Is it only available on a thread starter?  Also, what does the 'multi-quote' box do?


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## DCB (Jan 20, 2014)

Yes


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## BTatHome (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			That's OK with me, as long as you don't line him up from behind the line of play. Incidentally decision 14-2/1 only mentions a playing partner being able to line up a player, so I wonder if it's even legal for a caddie to do this? :mmm:
		
Click to expand...

Well it actually says that the rule does not apply prior to play, so there is no inference that it is only for the playing partner.


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## Fish (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			I still can't find this wretched box. Is it only available on a thread starter?  Also, what does the 'multi-quote' box do? 

Click to expand...

Yes, only when you start a new thread.

Multi-quote simply means you can reply to multiple people by selecting all those posts, you need to un-tic them afterwards though, otherwise they stay there on your next replies.


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

BTatHome said:



			Well it actually says that the rule does not apply prior to play, so there is no inference that it is only for the playing partner.
		
Click to expand...

What it actually says is:

Rule 14-2b (Assistance)

b. Positioning of Caddie or Partner Behind Ball
A player must not make a stroke with his caddie, his partner or his partner's caddie positioned on or close to an extension of the line of play or line of putt behind the ball. 
Exception: There is no penalty if the playerâ€™s caddie, his partner or his partner's caddie is inadvertently located on or close to an extension of the line of play or line of putt behind the ball.
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 14-1 or 14-2:
Match play â€“ Loss of hole; Stroke play â€“ Two strokes.

Decision 14-2/1 Player Aligns Partner's Club Before Stroke 

Q  A player aligns his partner's putter and then moves away before his partner plays. Is this permissible? 

A  Yes. Rule 14-2 (Assistance) does not apply prior to making a stroke. 


I think the rule should be changed to make it illegal to stand there or assist once the player has taken his or her stance, so no adjustments possible after this.


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## chrisd (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			I still can't find this wretched box. Is it only available on a thread starter?  Also, what does the 'multi-quote' box do? 

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I'm sure you cant do a poll until you've 10,000 posts!


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

Fish said:



			Yes, only when you start a new thread.

Multi-quote simply means you can reply to multiple people by selecting all those posts, you need to un-tic them afterwards though, otherwise they stay there on your next replies.
		
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OK I've found the poll box, ticked it and put in the number of questions I want to ask, but how or when can you add the questions themselves?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 20, 2014)

Allanxyz said:



			To be honest I was pretty happy with my first post on it!! (where I made it clear I had nothing against the rule), I've then felt compelled to reply  

It's off topic in any case... so let's leave it there, I don't think we actually disagree on much, as I agree that rules if they exist (agree or disagree with them) should be enforced..
		
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Agreed....let's go have a beer  :thup:


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## pokerjoke (Jan 20, 2014)

I have just read all 180 posts it took about 15 mins,however it was a very enjoyable
15 mins.
Delc legend.
Still cant find the "im sorry" I was wrong button.
Then gets the next one wrong as well,quality read.


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## BTatHome (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			What it actually says is:

Rule 14-2b (Assistance)

b. Positioning of Caddie or Partner Behind Ball
A player must not make a stroke with his caddie, his partner or his partner's caddie positioned on or close to an extension of the line of play or line of putt behind the ball. 
Exception: There is no penalty if the playerâ€™s caddie, his partner or his partner's caddie is inadvertently located on or close to an extension of the line of play or line of putt behind the ball.
PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 14-1 or 14-2:
Match play â€“ Loss of hole; Stroke play â€“ Two strokes.

Decision 14-2/1 Player Aligns Partner's Club Before Stroke 

Q  A player aligns his partner's putter and then moves away before his partner plays. Is this permissible? 

A  Yes. Rule 14-2 (Assistance) does not apply prior to making a stroke. 


I think the rule should be changed to make it illegal to stand there or assist once the player has taken his or her stance, so no adjustments possible after this.
		
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So if you knew all of this, the actual rule and the decision, why did you decide to post if the caddie lining up was illegal?


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

BTatHome said:



			So if you knew all of this, the actual rule and the decision, why did you decide to post if the caddie lining up was illegal?
		
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Er!!  At the moment a caddie or playing partner cannot stand directly behind the line of play while the player actually makes his stroke at the ball. However there is nothing to stop them doing so up to the last second before he starts his backswing, as 'Assistance' does not apply prior to the player making a stroke.  This effectively means that the PP or caddie can align the player with the target line and then move off the line just before he starts his swing.  :mmm:


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## Colin L (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			Er!!  At the moment a caddie or playing partner cannot stand directly behind the line of play while the player actually makes his stroke at the ball. *However there is nothing to stop them doing so up to the last second before he starts his backswing, *as 'Assistance' does not apply prior to the player making a stroke.  This effectively means that the PP or caddie can align the player with the target line and then move off the line just before he starts his swing.  :mmm:
		
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He would have to move pretty fast - bear in mind the line of play includes a reasonable distance on either side of the intended direction. He would have to be clear of that before the backswing began.

But I don't know why I'm saying this.  The idea of a caddie waiting there till the last moment is frankly daft.  Who wants someone directly behind him suddenly moving quickly just as he is about to make his stroke?


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## guest100718 (Jan 20, 2014)

Colin L said:



			He would have to move pretty fast - bear in mind the line of play includes a reasonable distance on either side of the intended direction. He would have to be clear of that before the backswing began.

But I don't know why I'm saying this.  The idea of a caddie waiting there till the last moment is frankly daft.  *Who wants someone directly behind him suddenly moving quickly just as he is about to make his stroke?*

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Is there somewhere in particular I should be standing.......


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## Colin L (Jan 20, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			Is there somewhere in particular I should be standing.......
		
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I'll draw a deep breath ...... and say nowt.


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

guest100718 said:



			Is there somewhere in particular I should be standing.......
		
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Opponents and fellow competitors can stand wherever they want to within the rules, but it is poor etiquette to stand too close or in a position that could distract or disturb the player. It is only playing partners and caddies who can't stand directly behind the line of play while the players makes his shot, as this counts as assistance in rule 14-2b.


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## Allanxyz (Jan 20, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Agreed....let's go have a beer  :thup:



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:thup:


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## CMAC (Jan 20, 2014)

Colin L said:



			He would have to move pretty fast - bear in mind the line of play includes a reasonable distance on either side of the intended direction. He would have to be clear of that before the backswing began.

But I don't know why I'm saying this.  The idea of a caddie waiting there till the last moment is frankly daft.  *Who wants someone directly behind him suddenly moving quickly just as he is about to make his stroke?*

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Faldo used to have Fanny behind him


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## chrisd (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			Er!!  At the moment a caddie or playing partner cannot stand directly behind the line of play while the player actually makes his stroke at the ball. However there is nothing to stop them doing so up to the last second before he starts his backswing, as 'Assistance' does not apply prior to the player making a stroke.  This effectively means that the PP or caddie can align the player with the target line and then move off the line just before he starts his swing.  :mmm:
		
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Sorry, am I missing something?

We know the rule,you got it wrong, so, why are you telling us what the rule is -we know it?

To be honest Del some of your posts and arguments defy logic!


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## Allanxyz (Jan 20, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Sorry, am I missing something?

We know the rule,you got it wrong, so, why are you telling us what the rule is -we know it?

To be honest Del some of your posts and arguments defy logic!
		
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I must have missed the debate over what the rule is... I thought this was fairly clear to all with no debate. The opening question was, what is the point of the rule...

from my point of view if the caddie can line up the player, then step away before the swing then they have achieved everything they want to... Why do they gain extra from continuing to stand behind the player. So i don't understand why the rule says the caddie can't stand behind the player during the swing. Having said that, I don't think they should be allowed to line up the player full stop...


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2014)

This is really such a non event 

The actual act of a caddy helping helping a player line up a putt or even drive or iron shot is done by a very minimal of people and mainly on the LPGA where a couple of the Asian ladies ( miyamato is one ) have their caddies help them. But that's it - it's not an epidemic spreading through the game ripping it apart - it doesn't effect the amateur game - hell it doesn't seem to effect the pro game to any significance. 

If you want to ban things that slow the game down then there is a big list of stuff before this non event.


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## Colin L (Jan 20, 2014)

CMAC said:



			Faldo used to have Fanny behind him 

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In American English , don't we all?


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## chrisd (Jan 20, 2014)

Allanxyz said:



			I must have missed the debate over what the rule is... I thought this was fairly clear to all with no debate. The opening question was, what is the point of the rule...

from my point of view if the caddie can line up the player, then step away before the swing then they have achieved everything they want to... Why do they gain extra from continuing to stand behind the player. So i don't understand why the rule says the caddie can't stand behind the player during the swing. Having said that, I don't think they should be allowed to line up the player full stop...
		
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It's Delc taking over and changing the topic that has muddied the OP. I don't understand the point of a caddie moving either but them's the rules and they don't really affect us mere mortals on a day to day basis.


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

chrisd said:



			It's Delc taking over and changing the topic that has muddied the OP. I don't understand the point of a caddie moving either but them's the rules and they don't really affect us mere mortals on a day to day basis.
		
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Er, how could I take over a thread I started?!!!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			Er, how can I take over a thread I started?!!! 

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By sucking the life out of it !

I'm more worried about what rule you want to change next

The most highlighting post of the thread was when someone highlighted the below info 

You want the size of the hole to change to help people get the ball into the hole and ensure they don't get the yips ( because you it appears had them ) - yet you don't want caddies helping out pros when they putt ?!


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## Robobum (Jan 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			By sucking the life out of it !
?!
		
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That irony is not lost on me Phil!!  :thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2014)

Robobum said:



			That irony is not lost on me Phil!!  :thup:
		
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Not sure what you mean


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## chrisd (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			Er, how could I take over a thread I started?!!! 

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Yes, you're right Del, your posts are so interesting, how could I have forgotten.


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

To clarify a point raised earlier on in this thread re. relief from ground under repair, my new club also has a local rule prohibiting play from GUR. It reads:

"GROUND UNDER REPAIR - play prohibited (Rule 25-1)
All areas encircled by a white line. A ball lying therein MUST be lifted, without penalty, or if the stance or area of intended swing is interfered with, the player MUST take relief in accordance with Rule 25-1."  

Therefore the two clubs I have been a member of for the last 27 years both had the same local rule, which is probably why I understood that you always had to to take relief from GUR. At least I will now know to check the local rules when I play elsewhere to check for this point.


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## Crow (Jan 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The actual act of a caddy helping helping a player line up a putt or even drive or iron shot is done by a very minimal of people and mainly on the LPGA where a couple of the Asian ladies ( miyamato is one ) have their caddies help them. But that's it - it's not an epidemic spreading through the game ripping it apart - it doesn't effect the amateur game - hell it doesn't seem to effect the pro game to any significance.
		
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Wasn't a similar viewpoint taken over anchored long putters a while ago?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2014)

And my viewpoint is the same with them - zero problems with people using them 

If they were that good everyone would use them 

3 people win a major in a 3 year period and people get their knickers in a twist - nobody cared about them for the decades before


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## Imurg (Jan 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And my viewpoint is the same with them - zero problems with people using them 

If they were that good everyone would use them 

3 people win a major in a 3 year period and people get their knickers in a twist - nobody cared about them for the decades before
		
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Nobody....?


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## Crow (Jan 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And my viewpoint is the same with them - zero problems with people using them 

If they were that good everyone would use them 

3 people win a major in a 3 year period and people get their knickers in a twist - nobody cared about them for the decades before
		
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With every respect I wasn't interested in your viewpoint, more where we could end up in a few years time if players start to take this up on a wider scale and the stink that would be caused when the governing bodies decide to do something "after the horse has bolted", or whatever the expression was around the anchored putter debate.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2014)

Crow said:



			With every respect I wasn't interested in your viewpoint, more where we could end up in a few years time if players start to take this up on a wider scale and the stink that would be caused when the governing bodies decide to do something "after the horse has bolted", or whatever the expression was around the anchored putter debate.
		
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How many in men's game do we actually see doing it ? I can't think of any men - only a few ladies and again I can't see what the problem is


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2014)

Imurg said:



			Nobody....?
		
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I can't recall much mumbling in the main stream compared to the last three years. We since Simpson won the US Open


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## Imurg (Jan 20, 2014)

You also can't see what the problem COULD be...?
That's what Crow is saying.
What if, in 10 years time, the majority are doing this...?

I still maintain that if you, as a Pro, need help lining yourself up then you're a poor Pro.


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## Robobum (Jan 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many in men's game do we actually see doing it ? I can't think of any men - only a few ladies and again I can't see what the problem is
		
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Kevin Na
James Driscoll
Robert Rock
Just a few from top of my head


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## Crow (Jan 20, 2014)

Imurg said:



			You also can't see what the problem COULD be...?
That's what Crow is saying.
What if, in 10 years time, the majority are doing this...?

I still maintain that if you, as a Pro, need help lining yourself up then you're a poor Pro.
		
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Spot on.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2014)

Imurg said:



			You also can't see what the problem COULD be...?
That's what Crow is saying.
What if, in 10 years time, the majority are doing this...?

I still maintain that if you, as a Pro, need help lining yourself up then you're a poor Pro.
		
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So we need to look at every rule to see what could possibly happen in the next ten years when we have hardly ( if ever in the men's game ) not seen it for the past 100 years ?

Sorry but don't deal in what ifs.

And as for a poor pro - possibly it does mean that - but they still need to swing and hit the ball. 

Do we stop caddy a giving advice on everything ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2014)

Robobum said:



			Kevin Na
James Driscoll
Robert Rock
Just a few from top of my head
		
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Robert Rock didnt at the Welsh Open - followed him during the Sunday with My Dad. They took a while over the line but lined himself up that day.


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

Crow said:



			With every respect I wasn't interested in your viewpoint, more where we could end up in a few years time if players start to take this up on a wider scale and the stink that would be caused when the governing bodies decide to do something "after the horse has bolted", or whatever the expression was around the anchored putter debate.
		
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Long and anchored putters should have been banned at the outset IMO, but they weren't.  Therefore some players have used them for years, and feel aggrieved that their crutches are being kicked away.  If certain players hadn't won majors using them, there probably wouldn't have been a proposal to ban them!  I am personally in favour of the ban, because belly putting in particular just looks awful. rather like caddies lining up their players.  However I'm  less fussed about broom-handle putters, because having used one for a short period, I know that they are not that easy to use, especially in windy conditions, and they are a life line for older players who have developed the yips.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 20, 2014)

Shall we run a sweepstake to see which rule is next for the "Del" treatment? :thup:


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## Imurg (Jan 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So we need to look at every rule to see what could possibly happen in the next ten years when we have hardly ( if ever in the men's game ) not seen it for the past 100 years ?

Sorry but don't deal in what ifs.
?
		
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Well that's exactly what the R&A and the USGA did do with regard to anchoring.
They decided that, in 10 years time, they didn't want the majority using Belly or Broom putters.
This will get looked at, even if it's only a cursory glance, because I doubt the R&A or the USGA want the majority of Caddies lining up their players....something that could happen in the same way Belly putters were an anomaly for a while but quickly started to run riot.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2014)

Imurg said:



			Well that's exactly what the R&A and the USGA did do with regard to anchoring.
They decided that, in 10 years time, they didn't want the majority using Belly or Broom putters.
This will get looked at, even if it's only a cursory glance, because I doubt the R&A or the USGA want the majority of Caddies lining up their players....something that could happen in the same way Belly putters were an anomaly for a while but quickly started to run riot.
		
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So where will it stop though ?

Can the caddy read the line for him , the wind, club selection ? It's all things that help the pro just like alignment ?


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## Fish (Jan 20, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Shall we run a sweepstake to see which rule is next for the "Del" treatment? :thup:
		
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Evens-Bigger Holes
13/8-Abnormal Ground Conditions
11/8-Anchoring
7/4-Yips

:smirk:


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## rickg (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			I am personally in favour of the ban, because belly putting in particular just looks awful.
		
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In my opinion, the claw grip is the ugliest thing I have ever witnessed in golf.....I think this should be banned. It makes my eyeballs bleed.
I'm going to start a campaign to to change the rules to ban the claw grip.


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## Imurg (Jan 20, 2014)

The role of the Caddy has developed over time.
To began with they were, literally, club carriers
Then they started to help their Clients with yardages, lines and club selections
For a long, long time they have been reading greens too...
Some have only recently begun to line up their player
What if they don't stop developing? What if their influence increases?
Will the Caddy start marking the ball on the green?
Will the Caddy start to hit putts?
Will the Caddy start to hit other shots, give the interview at the end of the round, sign the card....?
Where does that stop?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2014)

Imurg said:



			The role of the Caddy has developed over time.
To began with they were, literally, club carriers
Then they started to help their Clients with yardages, lines and club selections
For a long, long time they have been reading greens too...
Some have only recently begun to line up their player
What if they don't stop developing? What if their influence increases?
Will the Caddy start marking the ball on the green?
Will the Caddy start to hit putts?
Will the Caddy start to hit other shots, give the interview at the end of the round, sign the card....?
Where does that stop?
		
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Where do you stop ?

Do you only allow them to just carry clubs and that's it and let the pro do everything else ? 

What is the difference between helping his club selection or reading greens and with helping his putting alignment ?


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## Imurg (Jan 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Where do you stop ?

Do you only allow them to just carry clubs and that's it and let the pro do everything else ?
		
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Where do you stop????

Why not let them simply carry the bag, give yardages and hand over clean clubs...or do you want them to evolve into the more important part of the"Team"..?


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## delc (Jan 20, 2014)

rickg said:



			In my opinion, the claw grip is the ugliest thing I have ever witnessed in golf.....I think this should be banned. It makes my eyeballs bleed.
I'm going to start a campaign to to change the rules to ban the claw grip.
		
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Hope you don't, because about 25% of the seniors (including me) at our club now use it. It uses a standard length putter, it is not anchored and both hands are are on the grip. It is a good cure for the yips in older players, without having to resort to longer putters.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2014)

Imurg said:



			Where do you stop????

Why not let them simply carry the bag, give yardages and hand over clean clubs...or do you want them to evolve into the more important part of the"Team"..?
		
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As long as the pro is doing the hard bit - hitting the ball plus what we see now then seems ok with me - I can't see the aligning of putts taking off - or being a problem in the future


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Do you only allow them to just carry clubs and that's it and let the pro do everything else ?
		
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I would actually like to see this but I can't ever see it going back to that. EVERYTHING should be left to the player......yardages, club selection, green reading, the whole 9 yards.


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## rickg (Jan 20, 2014)

delc said:



			I am personally in favour of the ban, because belly putting in particular just looks awful.
		
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delc said:



			Hope you don't, because about 25% of the seniors (including me) at our club now use it. It uses a standard length putter, it is not anchored and both hands are are on the grip. It is a good cure for the yips in older players, without having to resort to longer putters.
		
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So it's OK for you to propose a ban on belly putter because "it looks awful". But not OK for me to propose a ban on the claw grip for the same reason?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2014)

drive4show said:



			I would actually like to see this but I can't ever see it going back to that. EVERYTHING should be left to the player......yardages, club selection, green reading, the whole 9 yards.
		
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Would have no problem with that - if you stop a caddying helping with one thing then surely they must stop helping with everything


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 20, 2014)

rickg said:



			So it's OK for you to propose a ban on belly putter because "it looks awful". But not OK for me to propose a ban on the claw grip for the same reason?
		
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I'm going to guess its because the claw grips helps him out ?


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## Allanxyz (Jan 21, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Would have no problem with that - if you stop a caddying helping with one thing then *surely* they must stop helping with everything
		
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Why? Currently the caddie is allowed to do some things (line the player up) but not other things (stand behind his player while he swings). Why must it be all or nothing?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 21, 2014)

Allanxyz said:



			Why? Currently the caddie is allowed to do some things (line the player up) but not other things (stand behind his player while he swings). Why must it be all or nothing?
		
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Because IMO you either let the caddy help or let the pro do it all himself


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## North Mimms (Jan 21, 2014)

Imurg said:



			The role of the Caddy has developed over time.
To began with they were, literally, club carriers
Then they started to help their Clients with yardages, lines and club selections
For a long, long time they have been reading greens too...
Some have only recently begun to line up their player
What if they don't stop developing? What if their influence increases?
Will the Caddy start marking the ball on the green?
Will the Caddy start to hit putts?
Will the Caddy start to hit other shots, give the interview at the end of the round, sign the card....?
Where does that stop?
		
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I blame Steve Williams.
Everything is his fault


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## HawkeyeMS (Jan 21, 2014)

Imurg said:



			Where do you stop????

Why not let them simply carry the bag, give yardages and hand over clean clubs...or do you want them to evolve into the more important part of the"Team"..?
		
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"The Team" is one of my pet hates in Pro golf. I don't know why but it really winds me up in interviews when the player describes their round saying "we" hit this shot or "we" did that.

I'm with Imurg, stop them assisting with anything to do with the actual shot except distance\club selection. They definately shouldn't be allowed to help read greens.


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## delc (Jan 21, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			"The Team" is one of my pet hates in Pro golf. I don't know why but it really winds me up in interviews when the player describes their round saying "we" hit this shot or "we" did that.

I'm with Imurg, stop them assisting with anything to do with the actual shot except distance\club selection. They definately shouldn't be allowed to help read greens.
		
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I don't have a problem with caddies helping players to read greens, because that is one of their traditional roles, as long as they then don't stand behind the line of play to check the players aim.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 21, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			"The Team" is one of my pet hates in Pro golf. I don't know why but it really winds me up in interviews when the player describes their round saying "we" hit this shot or "we" did that.

I'm with Imurg, stop them assisting with anything to do with the actual shot except distance\club selection. They definately shouldn't be allowed to help read greens.
		
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Why allow distance and club selection but not reading greens ?


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## chrisd (Jan 21, 2014)

delc said:



			Hope you don't, because about 25% of the seniors (including me) at our club now use it.
		
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Quite frankly, I don't believe that for a minute. I have never seen a club player use a claw grip in any game I've ever played. If your club is like mine and a reasonable percentage of members are in the vet section you will probably have over 100 vets, I frankly, don't believe over 25 would use a claw grip.


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## delc (Jan 21, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Quite frankly, I don't believe that for a minute. I have never seen a club player use a claw grip in any game I've ever played. If your club is like mine and a reasonable percentage of members are in the vet section you will probably have over 100 vets, I frankly, don't believe over 25 would use a claw grip.
		
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Actually we do have quite a significant number of players who use the claw grip at our club, and I have taught it to several players who were having putting problems.  No money changed hands before my amateur status is brought into question btw!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 21, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Quite frankly, I don't believe that for a minute. I have never seen a club player use a claw grip in any game I've ever played. If your club is like mine and a reasonable percentage of members are in the vet section you will probably have over 100 vets, I frankly, don't believe over 25 would use a claw grip.
		
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Also never seen a club member use a claw grip , seen one person use a broom handle , no belly putters ( well I have seen a few bellies reach a normal size putter  ) 

But 25% using the claw grip ! Seem a bit of an exaggeration


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 21, 2014)

delc said:



			Actually we do have quite a significant number of players who use the claw grip at our club, and I have taught it to several players who were having putting problems.  No money changed hands before my amateur status is brought into question btw!
		
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How many is significant ? 5 ? 10 ?


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## BTatHome (Jan 21, 2014)

They must have a very 'special' set of seniors at that club, because I haven't seen a single player here that use the claw .... so maybe they all moved to Batchworth Park.


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## MashieNiblick (Jan 21, 2014)

Just thought I'd quote the OP again as I think the key is in the first 2 sentences. 



delc said:



*Just wondering what the point of Rule 14-2b is, when caddies can line up their players and then move away just before they start their swing? Why is it not assistance when players are lining up, but becomes assistance when they make their swings? *IMO players should be entirely responsible for their set up and their swings!  The practice of caddies lining up players seems to be particularly prevalent on the LPGA Tour, and seems to waste a lot of time!
		
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That for me is the issue. What is the restriction in Rule 14-2b on _ making a stroke_ while your caddy or PP is standing behind you trying to stop? 

It doesn't doesn't stop a caddy or partner  lining up the player as that happens _before _the stroke. So if the intent is to stop that, then it seems to it would be better if the Rule did say that this shouldn't happen once a player has taken his stance.

Decision 14-2/1 Player Aligns Partner's Club Before Stroke confirms that the Rule doesn't apply prior to making a stroke so clearly there is some reason why the Rules guys think that makes all the difference but I can't really see that.

Would be interested in shedding some light on what the intent of the Rule is? If it is to prevent caddies or partners lining a player up, it seems to me it doesn't really achieve that.


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## delc (Jan 21, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many is significant ? 5 ? 10 ?
		
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I think about 20 to 25.  When I first joined my current club in 2010 there were only two of us using the claw grip that I knew of, but I think people started copying my style because I am a relatively good putter using it. We have about two members who use broom handle putters and three who use belly putters, one of whom still looks extremely twitchy even with that.


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## delc (Jan 21, 2014)

MashieNiblick said:



			Just thought I'd quote the OP again as I think the key is in the first 2 sentences. 

"Just wondering what the point of Rule 14-2b is, when caddies can line up their players and then move away just before they start their swing? Why is it not assistance when players are lining up, but becomes assistance when they make their swings?"


That for me is the issue. What is the restriction in Rule 14-2b on _ making a stroke_ while your caddy or PP is standing behind you trying to stop? 

It doesn't doesn't stop a caddy or partner  lining up the player as that happens _before _the stroke. So if the intent is to stop that, then it seems to it would be better if the Rule did say that this shouldn't happen once a player has taken his stance.

Decision 14-2/1 Player Aligns Partner's Club Before Stroke confirms that the Rule doesn't apply prior to making a stroke so clearly there is some reason why the Rules guys think that makes all the difference but I can't really see that.

Would be interested in shedding some light on what the intent of the Rule is? If it is to prevent caddies or partners lining a player up, it seems to me it doesn't really achieve that.
		
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I suppose it's to stop caddies coaching their players, and probably why some amateur tournaments have a ban on professional golfers acting as caddies. Nevertheless helping with alignment is still coaching in my eyes. The rule should be changed so that assistance starts when the player takes his stance.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jan 21, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why allow distance and club selection but not reading greens ?
		
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Distance information isn't advice and is available to everyone by a number of means. Reading greens is a skill and if you can't do it you should practice and learn, not have someone do it for you. That should be banned long before lining up on the fairway IMHO.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jan 21, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			I blame Steve Williams.
Everything is his fault
		
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Evil evil man


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## North Mimms (Jan 21, 2014)

BTatHome said:



			They must have a very 'special' set of seniors at that club, because I haven't seen a single player here that use the claw .... so maybe they all moved to Batchworth Park.
		
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Maybe that club has developed 20 to 25 players with the yips since 2010 after listening to delc talk and talk about the yips....


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## bobmac (Jan 21, 2014)

delc said:



			and probably why some amateur tournaments have a ban on professional golfers acting as caddies.
		
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Really?

Professionals are NEVER allowed to caddie for amateurs


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## delc (Jan 21, 2014)

bobmac said:



			Really?

Professionals are NEVER allowed to caddie for amateurs

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Think that's the case for the British and English Amateur Championships, or at least used to be.


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## bobmac (Jan 21, 2014)

Professionals are NEVER allowed to caddie for amateurs


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## delc (Jan 21, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			Maybe that club has developed 20 to 25 players with the yips since 2010 after listening to delc talk and talk about the yips....
		
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The claw grip is a good way of putting, even if you haven't got the yips! 

BTW, Would rickg also like to ban left hand below right grips (for right handed players), as that is another possible cure for the yips?


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## North Mimms (Jan 21, 2014)

delc said:



			The claw grip is a good way of putting, even if you haven't got the yips! 

BTW, Would rickg also like to ban left hand below right grips (for right handed players), as that is another possible cure for the yips?
		
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I'd like to ban talking about the yips


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## bobmac (Jan 21, 2014)

North Mimms said:



			I'd like to ban talking about the yips
		
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## DCB (Jan 21, 2014)

Surely the yips is caused because the players bottle has gone when they realise the hole is too small


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## One Planer (Jan 21, 2014)

DCB said:



			Surely the yips is caused because the players bottle has gone when they realise the hole is too small 

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Very cruel David.













...... Also very true


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## USER1999 (Jan 21, 2014)

I know quite a few guys who use the claw, and a few with long putters too. One of them playing off scratch or better for many years.

I don't like long putters, but am not concerned with ugly putting grips, well, apart from those made of pipe lagging.


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## delc (Jan 21, 2014)

:mmm:  Can we get back on topic before the moderators shut this thread down?


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## USER1999 (Jan 21, 2014)

How long before the player is effectively a robot operated by the caddy?


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## One Planer (Jan 21, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			How long before the player is effectively a robot operated by the caddy?
		
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They are already aren't they :mmm:

Caddy gives them the yardage.

Wind direcion.

Where best to play.

What kind of shot to play.

Then the player steps up and hit it. Short of hitting the ball himself, there's not much more a caddie can do


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## delc (Jan 21, 2014)

Gareth said:



			They are already aren't they :mmm:

Caddy gives them the yardage.

Wind direcion.

Where best to play.

What kind of shot to play.

Then the player steps up and hit it. Short of hitting the ball himself, there's not much more a caddie can do 

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Caddies are supposed to be players assistants or aides, not their managers!


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## bobmac (Jan 21, 2014)

So the OP question is
Why is a caddy allowed to stand behind a player and help him/her with their alignment but they are not allowed to stay there during the swing?

I'm only guessing here but...
While teaching golf, the pro spends a lot of time standing behind the player, checking for errors.
Perhaps the caddy could do the same when standing behind the player while he/she swung and would then be deemed as coaching


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## One Planer (Jan 21, 2014)

delc said:



			Caddies are supposed to be players assistants or aides, not their managers!  

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So why don't the players carrying their own clubs? Do their own yardages? Map their own greens?


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## delc (Jan 21, 2014)

bobmac said:



			So the OP question is
Why is a caddy allowed to stand behind a player and help him/her with their alignment but they are not allowed to stay there during the swing?

I'm only guessing here but...
While teaching golf, the pro spends a lot of time standing behind the player, checking for errors.
Perhaps the caddy could do the same when standing behind the player while he/she swung and would then be deemed as coaching
		
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This point has already been made in this thread.  I think that checking alignment is also coaching and should be stopped.


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## delc (Jan 21, 2014)

Gareth said:



			So why don't the players carry their own clubs? Do their own yardages? Map their own greens?
		
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They are the sort of jobs you might expect an assistant to do, and traditional caddie tasks!


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## MadAdey (Jan 21, 2014)

I thin what is being highlighted is where do you stpo with preventing caddies from helping. Like Bob highlighted standing behind during the swing is the position a coach would normally take to look for swing faults, so standing there can be considered coaching. But I think as soon as we go down the route of stopping caddies from giving information then it will get to the point that a player can't even talk to his caddy incase he accidently gives the talks abouthis next, or previous shots. If you prevented the caddie from doing anything then would it not hen be an infraction if he got his players putter out of the bag without him asking for it, or passes him his driver walking to the tee? I know that sounds a little bit stupid, but do you see my point?


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## One Planer (Jan 21, 2014)

delc said:




They are the sort of jobs you might expect an assistant to do, and traditional caddie tasks!
		
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As I understand it, a caddies job is to help his player hit a shot that gives the best possible outcome.

If that means 'checking' his alignment, then that's part of the above statement.

The player and caddy will have a clear understanding what they want from eachother. If a caddy is checking a players alignment, that will be because the player has asked him/her to. 

Being the good assistant the caddy does it.

As Bob has eluded to earlier in the thread. The Caddy may be checking a players posture, perhaps in light of issues in that area. Just because the stand behind then move away doesn't instantly mean checking alignment.


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## delc (Jan 21, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			I thin what is being highlighted is where do you stpo with preventing caddies from helping. Like Bob highlighted standing behind during the swing is the position a coach would normally take to look for swing faults, so standing there can be considered coaching. But I think as soon as we go down the route of stopping caddies from giving information then it will get to the point that a player can't even talk to his caddy incase he accidently gives the talks abouthis next, or previous shots. If you prevented the caddie from doing anything then would it not hen be an infraction if he got his players putter out of the bag without him asking for it, or passes him his driver walking to the tee? I know that sounds a little bit stupid, but do you see my point?
		
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We are only talking about 'assistance' within the meaning in rule 14-2 here, which at the moment is only prohibited while the player actually makes his shot. I am suggesting bringing that forward to the moment when the player takes his stance, which would prevent the lining up thing. All other caddie functions would not be affected.


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## BTatHome (Jan 21, 2014)

So he can still stand to the "traditional position that a caddie should take" and provide coaching from there?


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## North Mimms (Jan 21, 2014)

I'm not bothered about caddies reading putts or alignment (within the rules) as long as all this doesn't take too long.

What I would like to see is the professional game taking pace of play seriously, and how long players take over a shot being kept within sensible guidelines.
I've read somewhere that 40 seconds is the aim.

It's up the the player and caddie as to how they use that time - discussing yardages, club selection alignment , whatever.
Just do it quicker!


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## delc (Jan 21, 2014)

BTatHome said:



			So he can still stand to the "traditional position that a caddie should take" and provide coaching from there?
		
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Please read Rule 14-2b. As long as he does not stand directly behind the line of play while the player makes his stroke, yes I suppose he can. However I think that most tour pros employ expensive swing coaches off the course for that sort of thing.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jan 21, 2014)

I never thought I'd say it but reading yet another delc thread makes me yearn for the "Look how well I played" or "I got cut" threads.

Man I hope the rain stops soon so we can all get back out playing golf and talking about that


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## chrisd (Jan 21, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I never thought I'd say it but reading yet another delc thread makes me yearn for the "Look how well I played" or "I got cut" threads.
		
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Be careful Hawkeye, today he's accused me of having a vendetta against him!


How about a nice refreshing " recommend me a waterproof suit" thread


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## HawkeyeMS (Jan 21, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Be careful Hawkeye, today he's accused me of having a vendetta against him!


How about a nice refreshing " recommend me a waterproof suit" thread
		
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Yes I saw that, you terrible man you


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## Slab (Jan 21, 2014)

Canâ€™t say itâ€™s the easiest thread to follow but have I got this... Iâ€™m allowed to have my caddy stand behind my line only if on the putting green and providing Iâ€™m using a claw grip on a long handle putter but they must move before my stroke unless I happen to be standing on a white line for GUR in which case he canâ€™t say anything but he can remain there during the backswing but only where he assisted with the alignment of the shot otherwise he must move to the usual caddy coaching position?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 21, 2014)

delc said:



			I think about 20 to 25.  When I first joined my current club in 2010 there were only two of us using the claw grip that I knew of, but I think people started copying my style because *I am a relatively good putter* using it. We have about two members who use broom handle putters and three who use belly putters, one of whom still looks extremely twitchy even with that.
		
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What size holes do you use at your club?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 21, 2014)

bobmac said:



			Professionals are NEVER allowed to caddie for amateurs
		
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Not true. I was drawn against a Spanish guy in the Eden tournament at St Andrews a couple of years ago and he had a pro caddying for him. I thought the same and queried it but was told by the tournament referee it was allowed.


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## JamesR (Jan 21, 2014)

How does it work if your caddy is also your coach...as I believe is the case with Jason day?

Can they coach between shots, advise on issues they have spotted during the round?


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## Foxholer (Jan 21, 2014)

delc said:



			Somewhere in the middle!  You have played with me Robin, so you should know that my short game is not the best.
		
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What you need then is a Caddie to sort out the distance, determine the right club to use and line you up. Then 'bingo' all your problems will be solved. I figure ShivasIrons would be be ideal - at least for some of us!



Gil_Emott said:



			How does it work if your caddy is also your coach...as I believe is the case with Jason day?

Can they coach between shots, advise on issues they have spotted during the round?
		
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Yep. Perfectly acceptable - though often inadvisable, as 'the course is not the place for a lesson'!

Committee can have a 'rule' (actually part of Conditions of Comp) preventing coaches (or parents) from caddying (or even following the player!), but that's only seen in Junior comps


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## delc (Jan 21, 2014)

drive4show said:



			What size holes do you use at your club?  

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Just normal 4 1/4" ones.


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## rickg (Jan 21, 2014)

delc said:



			BTW, Would rickg also like to ban left hand below right grips (for right handed players), as that is another possible cure for the yips?
		
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Not really....that doesn't look too bad.....but this?!!!!  hideous!!!! 




No place on a golf course in my opinion.........25 seniors using it at Batchworth??!! God help us!


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## bobmac (Jan 21, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Not true. I was drawn against a Spanish guy in the Eden tournament at St Andrews a couple of years ago and he had a pro caddying for him. I thought the same and queried it but was told by the tournament referee it was allowed.
		
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Either the referee got it wrong or the rules have changed in the last 10 years. 
Or he was a pro caddy


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## delc (Jan 21, 2014)

rickg said:



			Not really....that doesn't look too bad.....but this?!!!!  hideous!!!! 

View attachment 8868


No place on a golf course in my opinion.........25 seniors using it at Batchworth??!! God help us!
		
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My grip is more like Sergio Garcia's now, with only one finger on top.


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## rickg (Jan 21, 2014)

delc said:



			My grip is more like Sergio Garcia's now, with only one finger on top.
		
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Still hideous!! Change the rules and Ban it!


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## williamalex1 (Jan 21, 2014)

Slab said:



			Canâ€™t say itâ€™s the easiest thread to follow but have I got this... Iâ€™m allowed to have my caddy stand behind my line only if on the putting green and providing Iâ€™m using a claw grip on a long handle putter but they must move before my stroke unless I happen to be standing on a white line for GUR in which case he canâ€™t say anything but he can remain there during the backswing but only where he assisted with the alignment of the shot otherwise he must move to the usual caddy coaching position?
		
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Yes all these positions are MENtioned in the kink of kings campetition.:rofl:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 21, 2014)

rickg said:



			Still hideous!! Change the rules and Ban it!

View attachment 8870

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Nah.....just make the holes bigger


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 21, 2014)

rickg said:



			Still hideous!! Change the rules and Ban it!

View attachment 8870

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Think a poll is in order :thup:


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## pogle (Jan 22, 2014)

bobmac said:



			Either the referee got it wrong or the rules have changed in the last 10 years. 
Or he was a pro caddy
		
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There is nothing in the Rules of Golf that prohibit a professional player from being a caddie.  The Conditions of Competition may restrict a player in his choice of caddie.  It was the same in 1997 which is the earliest set of rules I have access to at the moment.


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