# Non Qualfiying Scores from Away Clubs



## Liverpoolphil (Dec 23, 2016)

Just received an Email from EGU that from Jan 1st all members are requested to let the HC committee know of any non qualifying scores they have at away courses so that they can be used for the Annual Review ?!

There is also forms for clubs hosting Open comps to send back scores ?! I don't think they realise how much work it all entails


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## Fish (Dec 23, 2016)

I thought general play or any non-qualifying scores play no part in handicap assessments, especially as many Opens home or away are rarely full handicap? So I don't understand why they want them? Is this a means to identify those playing away more in comps but protecting handicaps by playing very few at their home clubs, if it is, then surely that should be welcomed?


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## Imurg (Dec 23, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Just received an Email from EGU that from Jan 1st all members are requested to let the HC committee know of any non qualifying scores they have at away courses so that they can be used for the Annual Review ?!
		
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Oh yeah, I can that happening.
"Excuse me Mr Handicap Sec, I played at my mates gaff yesterday and scored 44 points"...

How many are going to do that...?


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## chrisd (Dec 23, 2016)

I certainly would put mine in. I was always miffed that my H4H winning score at West Hill wasn't  accepted by my golf committee


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 23, 2016)

chrisd said:



			I certainly would put mine in. I was always miffed that my H4H winning score at West Hill wasn't  accepted by my golf committee
		
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They still don't get accepted to go against your HC so you won't get a cut - they will just be used during the AR

Them  not  accepting your H4H was correct 

http://www.englandgolf.org/shared/get-file.ashx?id=26757&itemtype=document


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 23, 2016)

The 4th paragraph seems to indicate that our regular roll ups are to be included. Why for heaven sakes? It's a social game amongst mates and certainly in our weekend roll ups the banter is far more important than the scores. Why make these qualifiers?


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## Old Skier (Dec 23, 2016)

Imurg said:



			Oh yeah, I can that happening.
"Excuse me Mr Handicap Sec, I played at my mates gaff yesterday and scored 44 points"...

How many are going to do that...?
		
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Not for social golf.  Will be useful evidence during annual review however as some clubs cannot be bothered to add CDH No to their systems in open qualifiers there are going to be issues.


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## Old Skier (Dec 23, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			The 4th paragraph seems to indicate that our regular roll ups are to be included. Why for heaven sakes? It's a social game amongst mates and certainly in our weekend roll ups the banter is far more important than the scores. Why make these qualifiers?
		
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If your roll ups are like ours with gimmes under a certain length then they cannot be used and taken into account for anything.


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## pokerjoke (Dec 23, 2016)

chrisd said:



			I certainly would put mine in. I was always miffed that my H4H winning score at West Hill wasn't  accepted by my golf committee
		
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Move on mate one good round doesn't make a career.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 23, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			If your roll ups are like ours with gimmes under a certain length then they cannot be used and taken into account for anything.
		
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We'll have to start giving a few then. The Sunday one holes out everything as there's big money at stake


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## richart (Dec 23, 2016)

chrisd said:



			I certainly would put mine in. I was always miffed that my H4H winning score at West Hill wasn't  accepted by my golf committee
		
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 You must talk me through that round




















again.


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## chrisd (Dec 23, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			Move on mate one good round doesn't make a career.

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That round, plus some other good rounds id had would have taken me into single figures for my only time! 

Not a career but would have been the pinnacle maybe! :smirk:


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## Tashyboy (Dec 23, 2016)

Cannot understand why anyone would not think this is a good idea, irrspective of how much work is involved. It was not to long ago that the " They exsist" thread re bandits, and the other thread where someone was cleaning up major prizes, was discussed or more so there handicaps. If it means that competition clubs are sending back scores to home clubs, then that can only be a good thing.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 23, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Cannot understand why anyone would not think this is a good idea, irrspective of how much work is involved. It was not to long ago that the " They exsist" thread re bandits, and the other thread where someone was cleaning up major prizes, was discussed or more so there handicaps. If it means that competition clubs are sending back scores to home clubs, then that can only be a good thing.
		
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I agree with sending back scores in competitions, but fail to see why roll up games need to be included. Aren't they suppose to be simply fun and don't the majority already submit many competitive cards per year?


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## Val (Dec 23, 2016)

Phil, are you saying this is for social golf at away courses or is it for competitive rounds like better ball opens etc at away courses?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 23, 2016)

Tashyboy said:



			Cannot understand why anyone would not think this is a good idea, irrspective of how much work is involved. It was not to long ago that the " They exsist" thread re bandits, and the other thread where someone was cleaning up major prizes, was discussed or more so there handicaps. If it means that competition clubs are sending back scores to home clubs, then that can only be a good thing.
		
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It still on the reliance of the player - if people are sandbagging they won't inform the committee of their scores and the non qualifying comps won't send the scores back. 

A lot of the HC sec like myself are non paid volunteers who do everything else in their spare time - all this adding sheets just adds more hassle to them and then at the end of the day it's only for the AR to be used for consideration - it has no effect on the HC so it could end up being a lot of work for nothing

It's needs to be done automatically via a HC system like IG where the scores are fed in automatically - in the same way Qualfiying away scores are


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 23, 2016)

Val said:



			Phil, are you saying this is for social golf at away courses or is it for competitive rounds like better ball opens etc at away courses?
		
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It's for golf that is played under competition conditions ( no gimmies etc ) and on measured courses and mainly for as you say - AM AMs , better ball , pairs teams etc 

It's not social golf &#128077;


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## Val (Dec 23, 2016)

So, would forum meets as an example which tend to have no gimmes and on a measured course and are competitive be included?  For me these are really just social games.

Could get messy that.


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## Old Skier (Dec 23, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I agree with sending back scores in competitions, but fail to see why roll up games need to be included. Aren't they suppose to be simply fun and don't the majority already submit many competitive cards per year?
		
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I have seen clubs roll ups featured in club diaries, why can't they just be played as qualifiers.

"Clubs should also be aware of regular roll-ups that take place at their club,where players are playing off a measured course under Competition PlayConditions. We would advise that these types of competitions should be playedas qualifiers when possible. "


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## Old Skier (Dec 23, 2016)

Val said:



			So, would forum meets as an example which tend to have no gimmes and on a measured course and are competitive be included?  For me these are really just social games.

Could get messy that.
		
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Not a recognized authority so wouldn't count. Think people might be reading to much into this. More to do with properly organized club opens and matches.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 23, 2016)

Val said:



			So, would forum meets as an example which tend to have no gimmes and on a measured course and are competitive be included?  For me these are really just social games.

Could get messy that.
		
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No because it's not being organised by a "Affliated" Club etc - hence why it won't affect much because things like Trilby Tour won't have to do anything


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 23, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			I have seen clubs roll ups featured in club diaries, why can't they just be played as qualifiers.

"Clubs should also be aware of regular roll-ups that take place at their club,where players are playing off a measured course under Competition PlayConditions. We would advise that these types of competitions should be playedas qualifiers when possible. "



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But why? Our roll ups are sociable games so why make them qualifiers all of a sudden? We have at least two qualifiers a month over the winter and far more than that per month when the season starts. Why add more simply because our group decides to hole out


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## Val (Dec 23, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Not a recognized authority so wouldn't count. Think people might be reading to much into this. More to do with properly organized club opens and matches.
		
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I think many will take it quite literally and if the shoot the lights out away then they'll be looking for a cut


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## Tashyboy (Dec 23, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's for golf that is played under competition conditions ( no gimmies etc ) and on measured courses and mainly for as you say - AM AMs , better ball , pairs teams etc 

It's not social golf &#62541;
		
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Homer as phil said its not just roll up golf. If someone turned up at our pad and cleaned up, at least there's a facility in place now to forward said result to there home club. Whether it is done or not is down to each club. But last year I was talking to our club sec. He said that he had to disqualify a team becaus they had signed there card wrong. He was quite happy because for the previous three years they had cleaned up, and would of done again.


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## Val (Dec 23, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			But why? Our roll ups are sociable games so why make them qualifiers all of a sudden? We have at least two qualifiers a month over the winter and far more than that per month when the season starts. Why add more simply because our group decides to hole out
		
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Why not? Golf is competitive even in roll ups so why not let it count for HC.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 23, 2016)

Val said:



			Why not? Golf is competitive even in roll ups so why not let it count for HC.
		
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Because, in my opinion, roll ups are social games. It's more about the banter, and a few drinks after. We already have plenty of official competitions in the calender. Why suddenly feel that your handicap is on the line every time you go out?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 23, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Because, in my opinion, roll ups are social games. It's more about the banter, and a few drinks after. We already have plenty of official competitions in the calender. Why suddenly feel that your handicap is on the line every time you go out?
		
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Whats wrong with getting another .1 back, its not the end of the world.


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## Val (Dec 23, 2016)

saving_par said:



			Whats wrong with getting another .1 back, its not the end of the world.
		
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Correct, and form tends to balance out anyway so take positives and look at it as more chances to get a cut


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## huds1475 (Dec 23, 2016)

The ideal is about right but the execution is flawed.

Too many shades of grey.

Won't work.


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## bobmac (Dec 24, 2016)

Don't worry, once we adopt the USGA system, everything will be sorted


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## Fish (Dec 24, 2016)

Val said:



			I think many will take it quite literally and if the shoot the lights out away then they'll be looking for a cut
		
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I agree, even in the opening post it states all non qualifying scores at away courses and then states 'also' in Open Comps which are then referred to later in the thread as AM AM'a, BB, Pairs etc, so that gives the impression it's not just formal club comps! 

So, as I see it, if any non qualifying round is played at home or away under competition conditions, which includes roll ups if no gimmies are given, then those cards should be handed in &#129300;


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 24, 2016)

In regards Roll ups at home course only - it's saying that if they are played under competition conditions then they should be as qualifying competition. 

That's not rolls ups at Away courses or social meets etc


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## ger147 (Dec 24, 2016)

Fish said:



			I agree, even in the opening post it states all non qualifying scores at away courses and then states 'also' in Open Comps which are then referred to later in the thread as AM AM'a, BB, Pairs etc, so that gives the impression it's not just formal club comps! 

So, as I see it, if any non qualifying round is played at home or away under competition conditions, which includes roll ups if no gimmies are given, then those cards should be handed in &#129300;
		
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The EGU specifically states all non-qualifying comps, not all non-qualifying scores, a very important distinction that wasn't called out in the OP i.e. this only applies to competitions, not social golf.

I'll stay out of the roll ups debate as we don't have any at my club so I don't have a view either way.


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## Fish (Dec 24, 2016)

I think it's confusing and is as clear as mud!

So when is a round not a competition round, I'd say when gimmies are given and it's not measured or cannot for any other reason comply to competition standards, so does that mean that everything else is a competition format, or are we now saying due to the distinction between non qualifying scores & nq comps that it's only declared comps which then clearly removes roll ups as their not official, unless the club runs then.


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## ger147 (Dec 24, 2016)

Fish said:



			I think it's confusing and is as clear as mud!

So when is a round not a competition round, I'd say when gimmies are given and it's not measured or cannot fir any other reason comply to competition standards, so does that mean that everything else is a competition format, or are we now saying due to the distinction between non qualifying scores & nq comps that it's only declared comps which then clearly removes roll ups as their not official, unless the club runs then.
		
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This is what the EGU has stated:

"From 1st January 2017 England Golf require all players to return all scores in Non 
Qualifying Competition, to assist handicap committees with handicap reviews. 
(Clause 4.5b/8.12)"

"Scores should be returned in all Singles, Am-Am, 4BBB and team competitions,
with the exception of Texas Scrambles and Greensome competitions."

So reading it literally, the NQ scores part has nothing to do with gimmies, measured courses etc., it's about NQ competition scores.

Here is the statement about roll-ups:

"Clubs should also be aware of regular roll-ups that take place at their club,
where players are playing off a measured course under Competition Play 
Conditions. We would advise that these types of competitions should be played 
as qualifiers when possible."

You may or may not agree but that all seems fairly clear to me i.e. if a roll-up is played under qualifying conditions it should be a qualifier for handicap purposes.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 24, 2016)

What they are saying is that anytime a club runs roll ups where they use the full length course and every putts out etc then that roll up should be a qualifying Comp - so basically a Stableford anyway - I have emailed seeking clarification on that to clear up that it's not your 10-16 people roll up that you see at most courses but the fully organised ones in conjunction with the club that have a decent amount of players. 

But if they are saying that it's every roll up then people will just play gimmies in theirs. 

The update has two distinct situations 

The roll ups at home clubs for home players - 

And the Open Non Qualfiying Comps 

They confused matters by putting the sentence about rolls up into the update without separating them


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## Old Skier (Dec 24, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Because, in my opinion, roll ups are social games. It's more about the banter, and a few drinks after. We already have plenty of official competitions in the calender. Why suddenly feel that your handicap is on the line every time you go out?
		
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And it is my impression on here that to many people complain that they are getting ripped off on roll ups and nothing happens to people who continue to score ridiculously good scores.

If your roll up is unofficial, no problem and take your medicine. If they are regular club events that are organized (which some sound like they are) they must, not should, be qualifiers. Them is the rules.


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## Hobbit (Dec 24, 2016)

Sounds good to me. As for it being a lot of work... really? How many members play away in any given week, and how long does it take for a member of the HC committee to enter those scores? Making it out to be a monumental task is rubbish. Imagine going in for 30mins on, say, a Friday evening to update handicaps for any returns, and 10mins into it you'll be sat in the bar.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 24, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Sounds good to me. As for it being a lot of work... really? How many members play away in any given week, and how long does it take for a member of the HC committee to enter those scores? Making it out to be a monumental task is rubbish. Imagine going in for 30mins on, say, a Friday evening to update handicaps for any returns, and 10mins into it you'll be sat in the bar.
		
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Enter scores where ? 

No HCs are updated - returning scores aren't added into any system on the PC , they aren't used to change someone's HC there and then 

It does onto some manual register within the club that could be used for the Annual Review. A score given for any away non q can't change someone's HC

If it was an automated process where scores are reported through CDH then it would be worthwhile but even then it still doesn't tackle the comps like TT or LTD where people gain big prizes


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## Hobbit (Dec 24, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Enter scores where ? 

No HCs are updated - returning scores aren't added into any system on the PC , they aren't used to change someone's HC there and then 

It does onto some manual register within the club that could be used for the Annual Review. A score given for any away non q can't change someone's HC
		
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Fine, and it leads to a mountain work at AR time how? AR's have been getting done, or should have been, for years. I know, I've done plenty of them. How long would it take to create an excel spreadsheet and then update it every week? I genuinely can't see what all the fuss is about. People puffing up their chest with self-importance and complaining about a bit of work that amounts to very little.


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## Old Skier (Dec 24, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Fine, and it leads to a mountain work at AR time how? AR's have been getting done, or should have been, for years. I know, I've done plenty of them. How long would it take to create an excel spreadsheet and then update it every week? I genuinely can't see what all the fuss is about. People puffing up their chest with self-importance and complaining about a bit of work that amounts to very little.
		
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With you here. Most of us are volunteers and I personally don't think it's going to extend my time by to much. As a volunteer I can always chuck it in and let someone else take over.


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## duncan mackie (Dec 24, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Fine, and it leads to a mountain work at AR time how? AR's have been getting done, or should have been, for years. I know, I've done plenty of them. How long would it take to create an excel spreadsheet and then update it every week? I genuinely can't see what all the fuss is about. People puffing up their chest with self-importance and complaining about a bit of work that amounts to very little.
		
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Completely agree.

It's in line with a huge current of opinion voiced here, and in bars everywhere, regarding the alleged performance of a number of players.

Our handicap committee already tries to ensure that they have relevant facts ie theirs effort taking place already. This simply brings things into a little more focus and puts the onus on both the players and the club's organising such events (if anything it's these that have the biggest additional workload).


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 24, 2016)

Hobbit said:



			Fine, and it leads to a mountain work at AR time how? AR's have been getting done, or should have been, for years. I know, I've done plenty of them. How long would it take to create an excel spreadsheet and then update it every week? I genuinely can't see what all the fuss is about. *People puffing up their chest with self-importance and complaining about a bit of work that amounts to very little.*

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Maybe it isn't too much work extra or maybe it's a bit more hassle on top of everything else but for me it's a step backwards - many companies are working hard to get everything in line to allow more stuff to be done online and all in the same place and to get clubs aligned to each other - then the EGU come along and bring manual sheets back into it all. The AR which currently takes a couple of days even when it's all online which just add more time by creating more paperwork. And what if you know players are playing in Non Q but aren't giving you the scores - do I then add more time chasing them down ?

If the EGU want clubs to send Non Q scores to clubs and players to add scores in - then update their CDH system to allow clubs to send Non Q scores - most opens are now based at clubs with IG or CS - most clubs use those systems to enter the scores - so allow those scores to be sent across the CDH. Simple as that done and dusted and automatically added to someone's playing record that can be used for AR - as opposed to going backwards and getting paper back up - but then we all know that golf at times is still stuck in the dark ages 

And I'm not sure the highlighted snide comment was required was it ? What does it achieve beyond getting someone's back up - because remember all that was said was it just creates more hassle ( which can be easily avoided ) as opposed to any monumental task


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## Jacko_G (Dec 24, 2016)

Despite the obvious "extra work" I only see this as a positive step to combat "banditry".


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 24, 2016)

Jacko_G said:



			Despite the obvious "extra work" I only see this as a positive step to combat "banditry".
		
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If someone is being a bandit then they just won't let the club know any of their scores from any away open - it's also only from affliated clubs so comps like TT and LTD etc don't have to comply as they are basically just big societies. 

So realistically unless it's all compulsory and automated then nothing will change.


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## Old Skier (Dec 24, 2016)

Building it into the current software making it automatically downloadable would be the way forward but as clubs don't have to automatically accept away qualifying scores even that won't solve the issue.

What I find strange is that this has just come from CONGU now when normally you are given a much longer heads up on future changes.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 24, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If someone is being a bandit then they just won't let the club know any of their scores from any away open - it's also only from affliated clubs so comps like TT and LTD etc don't have to comply as they are basically just big societies. 

So realistically unless it's all compulsory and automated then nothing will change.
		
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In Scotland we all have our unique identifier (CDH) which should automatically notify your home club of any competition you play in plus CSS etc.

Does England not operate a similar system? Not to difficult to adapt it to show that Bill Smith and Adam Smith played in a BB open and shot a combined 59???


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 24, 2016)

Jacko_G said:



			In Scotland we all have our unique identifier (CDH) which should automatically notify your home club of any competition you play in plus CSS etc.

Does England not operate a similar system? Not to difficult to adapt it to show that Bill Smith and Adam Smith played in a BB open and shot a combined 59???
		
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That only happens for any Qualfiying competitions At the moment 

This is about notifying your home club of any Away non q scores you have got during any opens - AM , 4BBB etc 

It shouldn't be difficult to adapt the system to upload those via the CDH 

But it seems Congu and EGU would prefer to take a step back and first ask the Open Comp courses to manually fill in the top five on a paper form then send those all to the relevant clubs and they want to ask the players to let the home clubs know - none of it is automated so can see clubs and players just not bother with the hassle.


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## Old Skier (Dec 24, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But it seems Congu and EGU would prefer to take a step back and first ask the Open Comp courses to manually fill in the top five on a paper form then send those all to the relevant clubs and they want to ask the players to let the home clubs know - none of it is automated so can see clubs and players just not bother with the hassle.
		
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As this is so last minute dot com, perhaps it was to late for the software houses to introduce it as most releases for 2017 are already done.


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## Val (Dec 24, 2016)

Perhaps people are reading to much into it. It's for use at AR and not for ensuring players get cut if they play well at a BB open. In theory it's no different to a HC sec using matchplay results at the AR to decide whether a player should be cut or go up.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 24, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That only happens for any Qualfiying competitions At the moment 

This is about notifying your home club of any Away non q scores you have got during any opens - AM , 4BBB etc 

It shouldn't be difficult to adapt the system to upload those via the CDH 

But it seems Congu and EGU would prefer to take a step back and first ask the Open Comp courses to manually fill in the top five on a paper form then send those all to the relevant clubs and they want to ask the players to let the home clubs know - none of it is automated so can see clubs and players just not bother with the hassle.
		
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So you agree then that a simple software change can incorporate it.

Your pant wetting is just you being melodramatic.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 24, 2016)

Jacko_G said:



			So you agree then that a simple software change can incorporate it.

Your pant wetting is just you being melodramatic.
		
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Eh ? Yes a simple software change can incorporate it hence why I have said that it should be an automated process but that is not what they are doing - have you missed that point ?  no automated process via any software change or link, all manual and requiring action from the players and the course holding the opens

Not sure what you mean by pant wetting craw ?


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## Jacko_G (Dec 24, 2016)

Which is no different to anyone entering an away competition at present. Only difference is the host club will now need to do the same process for all competitions including BB etc. 

The home club needs to act on the information sent from the host club. Hardly a mountain of paperwork.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 24, 2016)

Imurg said:



			Oh yeah, I can that happening.
"Excuse me Mr Handicap Sec, I played at my mates gaff yesterday and scored 44 points"...

How many are going to do that...?
		
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The problem is you are not going to get people putting all scores in. Those that want to get cut will only put in the good scores and those who want to go up will only put in the bad.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 24, 2016)

HawkeyeMS said:



			The problem is you are not going to get people putting all scores in. Those that want to get cut will only put in the good scores and those who want to go up will only put in the bad.
		
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Is that not what this is designed to help do? Ensure an accurate account of a player's ability is kept and help ensure that the handicap is a more accurate reflection on ability?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 24, 2016)

Jacko_G said:



			Which is no different to anyone entering an away competition at present. Only difference is the host club will now need to do the same process for all competitions including BB etc. 

The home club needs to act on the information sent from the host club. Hardly a mountain of paperwork.
		
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The automated process isn't there for the BB to be sent around - scores only get sent to clubs if they are Qualfying Scores and they go via the CDH 

Right now if someone enters an away comp that is a qualifier it's is sent via the clubs system to CDH and then forwarded on to the home club 

I have played in multiple BB away comps and all have gone onto the home system but they don't get sent to the CDH - the software on all the HC systems doesn't do it and the CDH doesn't look at them 

For it to happen all the Handicap Programs will need to be updated to allow for non q to be sent to away clubs and also the CDH will need to be changed as well


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 24, 2016)

Jacko_G said:



			Is that not what this is designed to help do? Ensure an accurate account of a player's ability is kept and help ensure that the handicap is a more accurate reflection on ability?
		
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How does it help reflect true ability if not all scores are returned, if everyone returned every score then fine, but they won't. Some will return all scores, some none and some the ones they think will help achieve their goal.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 24, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The automated process isn't there for the BB to be sent around - scores only get sent to clubs if they are Qualfying Scores and they go via the CDH 

Right now if someone enters an away comp that is a qualifier it's is sent via the clubs system to CDH and then forwarded on to the home club 

I have played in multiple BB away comps and all have gone onto the home system but they don't get sent to the CDH - the software on all the HC systems doesn't do it and the CDH doesn't look at them 

For it to happen all the Handicap Programs will need to be updated to allow for non q to be sent to away clubs and also the CDH will need to be changed as well
		
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Exactly, simple update to make it work efficiently. Hardly rocket science to do and would mean very little actual administration work other than the initial registration.

Now whether the CDH will incorporate that, well that is another matter altogether!

Anything that helps maintain and throws out a more accurate assessment of a player's ability can only be a good thing in my mind.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 24, 2016)

Jacko_G said:



			Exactly, simple update to make it work efficiently. Hardly rocket science to do and would mean very little actual administration work other than the initial registration.

Now whether the CDH will incorporate that, well that is another matter altogether!

Anything that helps maintain and throws out a more accurate assessment of a player's ability can only be a good thing in my mind.
		
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It is a simple thing to do and the next natural process for clubs to do on their systems.

But what they suggest from 1st Jan won't work because it then relies on the players to give in their scores to the HC committee - how many can you see actually do that though - even though it has no affect on your HC some people will not want it to flag them for any changes during the AR 

Hence why they should have waited until an automated process was viable before releasing such a change - instead of going in half baked


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## Jacko_G (Dec 24, 2016)

Haha, so in reality we're in agreement. 

Have a great Christmas.


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## Val (Dec 24, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Eh ? Yes a simple software change can incorporate it hence why I have said that it should be an automated process but that is not what they are doing - have you missed that point ?  no automated process via any software change or link, all manual and requiring action from the players and the course holding the opens

Not sure what you mean by pant wetting* craw *?
		
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:rofl: well spotted


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 24, 2016)

Much consternation in the roll up today. Very unhappy that because it's a recognised weekly competition in as much as we publish start times on the web and in the blur for new members to come along and join, it'll become a qualifier. Putts within 6 inches now being begrudgingly talked about being given. That'll hurt some who wouldn't give the putt on a hole in one usually


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## Old Skier (Dec 24, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Much consternation in the roll up today. Very unhappy that because it's a recognised weekly competition in as much as we publish start times on the web and in the blur for new members to come along and join, it'll become a qualifier. Putts within 6 inches now being begrudgingly talked about being given. That'll hurt some who wouldn't give the putt on a hole in one usually
		
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If it's a recognised club comp then you can't give anything.  Play the game according to the rules and not in the way handicaps continue to be minipulated.  What's the problem, low handicappers not as good as they think.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			If it's a recognised club comp then you can't give anything.  Play the game according to the rules and not in the way handicaps continue to be minipulated.  What's the problem, low handicappers not as good as they think.
		
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It's a grey area. While it's advertised, so people know the tee will be busy and that they can join, we've never treated it as an official competition ourselves. Handicaps aren't changed for winners and those outside buffer zones and to be honest it's more about turning up, having a laugh and a few drinks after. We've never given putts as there is usually a big kitty to play for and it makes it fairer all round. We're quite happy with the way it is. If we have to give putts to make it NQ then so be it.


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## Old Skier (Dec 24, 2016)

Like I said before, if it's a few mates rolling up for a knock no problem, if it's organized by the club then rules is rules.


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Like I said before, if it's a few mates rolling up for a knock no problem, if it's organized by the club then rules is rules.
		
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And like I said, a grey area! Not organised by the club but SUPPORTED by it


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 24, 2016)

HomerJSimpson said:



			And like I said, a grey area! Not organised by the club but SUPPORTED by it
		
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Still not sure what the worry about putting handicap on the line is. If it light hearted and a laugh then chances are you may shoot the lights out!

Too many golfers put too much pressure on themselves playing in 'official' comps where the worst that can happen is .1 back.


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## SammmeBee (Dec 24, 2016)

If your handicap is correct then what's to worry about.........?


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## Old Skier (Dec 24, 2016)

Sounds like you really know what should be done.


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## SammmeBee (Dec 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Sounds like you really know what should be done.
		
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?????


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## Old Skier (Dec 24, 2016)

SammmeBee said:



			?????
		
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#66


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## SammmeBee (Dec 24, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			#66
		
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Only shot that twice this year.......no idea otherwise!


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## Fish (Dec 24, 2016)

saving_par said:



			Still not sure what the worry about putting handicap on the line is. If it light hearted and a laugh then chances are you may shoot the lights out!

Too many golfers put too much pressure on themselves playing in 'official' comps where the worst that can happen is .1 back.
		
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Exactly this, unless your hanging on to a handicap you can't play to and are worried about even more 0.1's &#128540; 

I hear members whining that they need more shots and yet only play a handful of weekend comps a year but never miss the many roll ups in the week! 

Then you have those that play well in roll ups and clean up but medals get the better of them and ideally would love to be cut!

As such this sorts out both those scenarios so it can only be a good thing, unless your wanting to hang onto a handicap for all the wrong reasons, whether that be to obtain an unfair advantage in roll-ups and nq comps or out of pure vanity.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 24, 2016)

saving_par said:



			Still not sure what the worry about putting handicap on the line is. If it light hearted and a laugh then chances are you may shoot the lights out!

Too many golfers put too much pressure on themselves playing in 'official' comps where the worst that can happen is .1 back.
		
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I'd be happy if every round was a qualifier, like you say, it's just 0.1 and they are supposed to happen.


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## Junior (Dec 24, 2016)

Fish said:



			Exactly this, unless your hanging on to a handicap you can't play to and are worried about even more 0.1's &#128540; 

I hear members whining that they need more shots and yet only play a handful of weekend comps a year but never miss the many roll ups in the week! 

Then you have those that play well in roll ups and clean up but medals get the better of them and ideally would love to be cut!

As such this sorts out both those scenarios so it can only be a good thing, unless your wanting to hang onto a handicap for all the wrong reasons, whether that be to obtain an unfair advantage in roll-ups and nq comps or out of pure vanity.
		
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I agree with this.  That said, i think its a sad day that something like this has to be brought in to help regulate handicaps.  By having an active handicap, you are a member of a club, and therefore golfers have the ability to maintain a fair / true handicap.


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## HawkeyeMS (Dec 25, 2016)

saving_par said:



			Still not sure what the worry about putting handicap on the line is. If it light hearted and a laugh then chances are you may shoot the lights out!

Too many golfers put too much pressure on themselves playing in 'official' comps where the worst that can happen is .1 back.
		
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In Homer's case I have some sympathy. Why should their roll-up be a qualifier when the other, smaller roll-ups and everyone else plays their social golf as just that; social?

If the club wants weekly qualifiers they should organise weekly competitions that include everyone, not pick on a particular group


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 25, 2016)

HawkeyeMS said:



			In Homer's case I have some sympathy. Why should their roll-up be a qualifier when the other, smaller roll-ups and everyone else plays their social golf as just that; social?

If the club wants weekly qualifiers they should organise weekly competitions that include everyone, not pick on a particular group
		
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If it's a serious roll up with a big number and they all have to putt out on a measured course for it seems decent prize fund then they are playing a qualifying comp

All they need to do to stop it being a qualifying comp is play gimmies etc or use social Handicaps etc - it's what most of the roll ups I have played in do.


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## bobmac (Dec 25, 2016)

Will they be able to do away with supplementary cards then?


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## Fish (Dec 25, 2016)

bobmac said:



			Will they be able to do away with supplementary cards then?
		
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I doubt it, if I go out as a two-ball I'd have to declare my round if I wanted it to count for my handicap. 

 I think another question that will come about is, is there a minimum quantity of players for it to constitute a competition format?


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## 2blue (Dec 25, 2016)

Thinking about how these get recorded...  there's a template form supplied. Am thinking that posting one on a Club notice board each month or so, would allow other members to keep an eye on folk recording their Open games that they've heard about them playing. I see there's a mention of sanctions if folk don't comply...  chance for self-policing perhaps.


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## Jacko_G (Dec 25, 2016)

Not sure if I am picking up on how a roll up can be considered a competition? 

The fact that gimmies are currently in play would suggest that it is already not a competition.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 25, 2016)

Jacko_G said:



			Not sure if I am picking up on how a roll up can be considered a competition? 

The fact that gimmies are currently in play would suggest that it is already not a competition.
		
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Hence why they said any roll ups played of a measured course under competition conditions should be a Qualfiying comp 

Gimmies means it's not being played under competition conditions


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 25, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If it's a serious roll up with a big number and they all have to putt out on a measured course for it seems decent prize fund then they are playing a qualifying comp

All they need to do to stop it being a qualifying comp is play gimmies etc or use social Handicaps etc - it's what most of the roll ups I have played in do.
		
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Isn't winning money dodgy ground? Amatuer status etc,


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## Fish (Dec 25, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Isn't winning money dodgy ground? Amatuer status etc,
		
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I don't think so, isn't their a ceiling of what can be won, it used to be Â£500 I think, but not 100% sure of how it works.


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## Old Skier (Dec 25, 2016)

bobmac said:



			Will they be able to do away with supplementary cards then?
		
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They are for adjustment on the day to keep your qualifying handicap. The other is for AR consideration.


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## bobmac (Dec 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			They are for adjustment on the day to keep your qualifying handicap. The other is for AR consideration.
		
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But if they increase the amount of qualifying rounds, there would no excuse for not getting 3 cards in.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 25, 2016)

bobmac said:



			But if they increase the amount of qualifying rounds, there would no excuse for not getting 3 cards in.
		
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*IF*

Can you really see any roll ups becoming qualifying ? 

And supplementary cards aren't just for people who can't get three rounds in


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## Old Skier (Dec 25, 2016)

bobmac said:



			But if they increase the amount of qualifying rounds, there would no excuse for not getting 3 cards in.
		
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Unfortunately there are those who if you reduce it to 1 Q someone will come up with a sob story telling why they can't do it.


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## bobmac (Dec 25, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



*IF*

Can you really see any roll ups becoming qualifying ?
		
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If it means peoples handicaps would be more accurate, then I think it should be encouraged.


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## Old Skier (Dec 25, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



*IF*

Can you really see any roll ups becoming qualifying ? 

And supplementary cards aren't just for people who can't get three rounds in
		
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Quite agree on this. The amount of clubs who still refuse Q away scores is horrendous so I think the circular from CONGU was really a more "we know what's going on" with some clubs who appear to do anything they can to reduce their number of qualifying comps.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 25, 2016)

bobmac said:



			If it means peoples handicaps would be more accurate, then I think it should be encouraged.
		
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People don't just want to play Qualfiying golf - people want the balance between the two - social and comp. it's why we reduce the amount of comps because people at times just want to have a game of golf with mates without having to worry about Comp. 

So I reckon roll ups will just add in gimmies if they don't already do that and then it's not a q comp


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## bobmac (Dec 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Unfortunately there are those who if you reduce it to 1 Q someone will come up with a sob story telling why they can't do it.
		
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At the moment, someone could put in 3 rubbish cards a year to keep their h/cap falsely high knowing they could hoover up the money in the roll ups with no fear of being chopped. If the new system means they can be chopped in roll ups, that's got to be good news


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			Quite agree on this. *The amount of clubs who still refuse Q away scores is horrendous* so I think the circular from CONGU was really a more "we know what's going on" with some clubs who appear to do anything they can to reduce their number of qualifying comps.
		
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What's that based on ? 

Sorry but according to CDH most clubs are administering away scores regularly


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## Old Skier (Dec 25, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What's that based on ? 

Sorry but according to CDH most clubs are administering away scores regularly
		
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On fact. Unless you do checks on those that have played in your opens you would have no idea who accepts scores and who rejects them.


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## Fish (Dec 25, 2016)

bobmac said:



			At the moment, someone could put in 3 rubbish cards a year to keep their h/cap falsely high knowing they could hoover up the money in the roll ups with no fear of being chopped. If the new system means they can be chopped in roll ups, that's got to be good news
		
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All the roll ups have to do, like ours, is on winning a roll up under handicap you get cut 2 shots and then get back 1 shot per week when not winning until your back to your correct handicap, anyone cleaning up with a false handicap is soon chopped down to where they should be, I'd think these roll ups would then not be qualifiers as there's a handicap book kept and not everyone is playing off their true club handicap.

They can't be chopped immediately by the club either, this new admin is for annual reviews, I suppose the head of the roll ups could offer the book to the handicap secretary for consideration to raise  or lower handicaps showing players averages!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			On fact. Unless you do checks on those that have played in your opens you would have no idea who accepts scores and who rejects them.
		
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Most of the opens that are single HC qualifiers do send their scores in - how many people have you heard off that has had their HC changed after playing in an Open - every time I have played it's been accepted, on here plenty play in Away Qualfiying single comps - they all seem to have them accepted,  i accept all Away scores and after speaking to CDH about Away score administration they believe most clubs do as well.

You have a few times mentioned clubs not accepting away scores but believe that to be very false - especially when it's all automated now. There is no reason for clubs to not accept the scores.


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## patricks148 (Dec 25, 2016)

May be some confusion here as most opens in Scotland are handicap qual stroke play events, evey single one I've played has been.

Might also have been thought of by the powers that be to combat the usual suspects cleaning up in these national NQ comps


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## Old Skier (Dec 25, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Most of the opens that are single HC qualifiers do send their scores in - how many people have you heard off that has had their HC changed after playing in an Open - every time I have played it's been accepted, on here plenty play in Away Qualfiying single comps - they all seem to have them accepted,  i accept all Away scores and after speaking to CDH about Away score administration they believe most clubs do as well.

You have a few times mentioned clubs not accepting away scores but believe that to be very false - especially when it's all automated now. There is no reason for clubs to not accept the scores.
		
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It's is not automatic. You as a club can accept or reject a score. It was one of the complaints that came up when the system was introduced.  If you can show me on the CDH database were you can run a report that shows away clubs have accepted and updated a record I would be more than interested.  I do manual checks on away players records that have played in our opens and I have found its certain clubs. Info has been passed to county but there is nothing that can be done about it at present.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			It's is not automatic. You as a club can accept or reject a score. It was one of the complaints that came up when the system was introduced.  If you can show me on the CDH database were you can run a report that shows away clubs have accepted and updated a record I would be more than interested.  I do manual checks on away players records that have played in our opens and I have found its certain clubs. Info has been passed to county but there is nothing that can be done about it at present.
		
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I know how the system works - and I know that EGU are confident right now that clubs are accepting away scores - yes there maybe the odd one that is not following guidelines but it's not as you suggest "horrendous" - far from it

As I said how many on here haven't had their scores accepted by their club - can't recall anyone complaining , same on the mid Am tour and JB tour and all the other places that do open events

Also remember at the end of the day it's the player responsibility- if that away scores hasn't been accepted then he can request it and also go via county and EGU if required


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## Old Skier (Dec 25, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I know how the system works
		
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Apologise then as I was going on your post were you suggested the system was automated now.


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## 2blue (Dec 25, 2016)

patricks148 said:



			May be some confusion here as most opens in Scotland are handicap qual stroke play events, evey single one I've played has been.

Might also have been thought of by the powers that be to combat the usual suspects cleaning up in these national NQ comps
		
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I must say that every time I've ventured North to play competition in Scotland I've been impressed with their professional approach at even the most minor Open. Ensuring there is no ? re the fairness is so
Important. Eg. no pairs from the same Club playing together in B/ball Comps, supplying CDH even if not a Q comp etc.
England got a lot of catching up to do.


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## 2blue (Dec 25, 2016)

Is it just me? ....  who can't understand why folk don't what their 'social' golf to impact their h/cap, because 'it's a worry'.....  I just don't get it. What you score is what you score...  just enjoy it. Is it really that worrying ...  really!!


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## Old Skier (Dec 25, 2016)

2blue said:



			Is it just me? ....  who can't understand why folk don't what their 'social' golf to impact their h/cap, because 'it's a worry'.....  I just don't get it. What you score is what you score...  just enjoy it. Is it really that worrying ...  really!!
		
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It might be the ones who are normally in or there about (the money) with the worries.


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## bobmac (Dec 25, 2016)

2blue said:



			Is it just me? ....  who can't understand why folk don't what their 'social' golf to impact their h/cap, because 'it's a worry'.....  I just don't get it. What you score is what you score...  just enjoy it. Is it really that worrying ...  really!!
		
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Even more puzzling is why the powers that be make it so difficult for h/cap secs to cut someone who wants their h/cap cut


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## Old Skier (Dec 25, 2016)

bobmac said:



			Even more puzzling is why the powers that be make it so difficult for h/cap secs to cut someone who wants their h/cap cut
		
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They don't.  Anyone can request a cut. I might take time to explain why they shouldn't but anyone can request a cut.


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## bobmac (Dec 25, 2016)

Old Skier said:



			They don't.  Anyone can request a cut. *I might take time to explain why they shouldn't* but anyone can request a cut.
		
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Please don't bother


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## 2blue (Dec 25, 2016)

bobmac said:



			Please don't bother
		
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Still has to be justified....  just as wrong for folk to be coming down on request..... plenty of ways to get a proper cut


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## Region3 (Dec 25, 2016)

2blue said:



			Is it just me? ....  who can't understand why folk don't what their 'social' golf to impact their h/cap, because 'it's a worry'.....  I just don't get it. What you score is what you score...  just enjoy it. Is it really that worrying ...  really!!
		
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I don't want social golf to affect my handicap.

For me, it's 2 different types of game. In competition play I'm trying my best to make a score. In social play I just want to have fun. That might mean taking driver over the corner of a hole, going after sucker pins, trying the ridiculous escape etc.

If every round counted for hc I'd either have to cut those shots out or accept I'll be a couple of shots higher. I like it the way it is.


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## 2blue (Dec 25, 2016)

Region3 said:



			I don't want social golf to affect my handicap.

For me, it's 2 different types of game. In competition play I'm trying my best to make a score. In social play I just want to have fun. That might mean taking driver over the corner of a hole, going after sucker pins, trying the ridiculous escape etc.

If every round counted for hc I'd either have to cut those shots out or accept I'll be a couple of shots higher. I like it the way it is.
		
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So I guess, I just don't get it then.
I play 3 times a week & in season each of those is a Q Comp but still fun whether I'm firing or not & my h/cap is what it is. I'd hate to score really well in social golf & not get cut


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## gazzadi (Dec 25, 2016)

2blue said:



			Still has to be justified....  just as wrong for folk to be coming down on request..... plenty of ways to get a proper cut
		
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its easy guys just win a few non qualifying comps off the yellows and you can lose 10 shots in 2 years no problem


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## pokerjoke (Dec 25, 2016)

Region3 said:



			I don't want social golf to affect my handicap.

For me, it's 2 different types of game. In competition play I'm trying my best to make a score. In social play I just want to have fun. That might mean taking driver over the corner of a hole, going after sucker pins, trying the ridiculous escape etc.

If every round counted for hc I'd either have to cut those shots out or accept I'll be a couple of shots higher. I like it the way it is.
		
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2blue said:



			So I guess, I just don't get it then.
I play 3 times a week & in season each of those is a Q Comp but still fun whether I'm firing or not & my h/cap is what it is. I'd hate to score really well in social golf & not get cut
		
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You have to define social golf.

Is it a roll up with 12 players or a game with a couple of mates.
Any bigger than 12 and it could easily be a club comp and a qualifier.

I shot 3 under gross with a mate once but only level par in a comp and I remember feeling really relaxed in the game with my mate and had no nerves whatsoever even though I knew I had a good score going,i also remember when I shot level par of being nervous a few holes out.

For me a cut should only come from an official round in a qualifying comp.


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## Region3 (Dec 25, 2016)

gazzadi said:



			its easy guys just win a few non qualifying comps off the yellows and you can lose 10 shots in 2 years no problem
		
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Did you win a few non qualifying comps and get cut 10 shots in 2 years?

Welcome to the forum btw.


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## Region3 (Dec 25, 2016)

2blue said:



			So I guess, I just don't get it then.
I play 3 times a week & in season each of those is a Q Comp but still fun whether I'm firing or not & my h/cap is what it is. I'd hate to score really well in social golf & not get cut
		
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Don't get me wrong, hc rounds are still fun, but sometimes it's nice to be able to go for the wrong shot just to see if you can pull it off.

If I play badly and get 0.1 back that's fine, but I don't want start collecting them because I fancy firing at every pin one day or hitting driver off every tee on another.


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## SammmeBee (Dec 25, 2016)

Region3 said:



			I don't want social golf to affect my handicap.

For me, it's 2 different types of game. In competition play I'm trying my best to make a score. In social play I just want to have fun. That might mean taking driver over the corner of a hole, going after sucker pins, trying the ridiculous escape etc.

If every round counted for hc I'd either have to cut those shots out or accept I'll be a couple of shots higher. I like it the way it is.
		
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You need a handicap you can play to then.......


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## 2blue (Dec 25, 2016)

gazzadi said:



			its easy guys just win a few non qualifying comps off the yellows and you can lose 10 shots in 2 years no problem
		
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Oh??...  you'll have tell us a bit more about that, matey.:mmm: Yes welcome to 'the zone'....  you're in, not an easy starting place with this thread, but stick with it & you'll get to know the regulars :thup:


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## Region3 (Dec 25, 2016)

SammmeBee said:



			You need a handicap you can play to then.......
		
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Everyone with the possible exception of those on the maximum hc for their age/sex has a handicap they have already played to, so I don't understand your comment.

Can you explain what you mean?


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 25, 2016)

Thread reopened after tidy up

Please stick to the thread subject please


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## SammmeBee (Dec 25, 2016)

Play to your handicap at all times.....if you can't then the AR will come to your aid.....


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## Region3 (Dec 25, 2016)

SammmeBee said:



			Play to your handicap at all times.....if you can't then the AR will come to your aid.....
		
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If you can play to your handicap all the time then your handicap is wrong. 

I still don't get what you're trying to say. Stop being cryptic and just say it.


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## SammmeBee (Dec 26, 2016)

Region3 said:



			If you can play to your handicap all the time then your handicap is wrong. 

I still don't get what you're trying to say. Stop being cryptic and just say it.
		
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Man up and just play really?  Your/their handicap will just be what it is.....


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 26, 2016)

SammmeBee said:



			Man up and just play really?  Your/their handicap will just be what it is.....
		
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unreal reply
shakes head and walks away


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## Papas1982 (Dec 26, 2016)

SammmeBee said:



			Man up and just play really?  Your/their handicap will just be what it is.....
		
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Id wager the player that mans up has a worse handicap than the player that uses course management and risk assessment. First and foremost I play golf for fun, but you still assess. I'd rather have four boring pars tha 3 bogeys from short sighting myself to go with the Hollywood birdie for aiming at the pin 2 ft over the lake.....


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## SammmeBee (Dec 26, 2016)

Papas1982 said:



			Id wager the player that mans up has a worse handicap than the player that uses course management and risk assessment. First and foremost I play golf for fun, but you still assess. I'd rather have four boring pars tha 3 bogeys from short sighting myself to go with the Hollywood birdie for aiming at the pin 2 ft over the lake.....
		
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One doesn't pay to lay up.........


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## 2blue (Dec 26, 2016)

pokerjoke said:



			You have to define social golf.

Is it a roll up with 12 players or a game with a couple of mates.
Any bigger than 12 and it could easily be a club comp and a qualifier.

I shot 3 under gross with a mate once but only level par in a comp and I remember feeling really relaxed in the game with my mate and had no nerves whatsoever even though I knew I had a good score going,i also remember when I shot level par of being nervous a few holes out.

For me a cut should only come from an official round in a qualifying comp.
		
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We have no Club arranged 'roll-ups' so I'd say all the 'ball-toss' groups however big (ours can be 16 or so) are 'social'. At often 4 a week, I think we have far more Q Comps than most so the social element being discussed will be less relevant though, I agree, it's not terribly clear. Good idea though.


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## 2blue (Dec 26, 2016)

SammmeBee said:



			Man up and just play really?  Your/their handicap will just be what it is.....
		
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Nay.....  golf is not a test of 'man-hood', more to do with ones character & make-up so a great variety of traits are acceptable providing the overall one is of honesty...  well that's my thoughts anyway.


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## 2blue (Dec 26, 2016)

I guess, like the 7 consecutive 0.1's scenario they'll come along later to clarify.....  just leaves us doing our own thing to begin with though which is not right good in a game that relies heavily on us playing to the same rules&#129300;


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 29, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If someone is being a bandit then they just won't let the club know any of their scores from any away open - it's also only from affliated clubs so comps like TT and LTD etc don't have to comply as they are basically just big societies. 

So realistically unless it's all compulsory and automated then nothing will change.
		
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Were is the evidence to back this statement about TT and LTD etc not having to comply, surely if I play in them and meet the criteria laid down I am expected to inform my club, also events we've held in the past like Race to Hillside etc, if they meet the criteria shouldn't we submit them scores ourselves as well?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 29, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Were is the evidence to back this statement about TT and LTD etc not having to comply, surely if I play in them and meet the criteria laid down I am expected to inform my club, also events we've held in the past like Race to Hillside etc, if they meet the criteria shouldn't we submit them scores ourselves as well?
		
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Criteria after speaking with County HC and awaiting confirmation from EGU and Congu 

Comps must be organised and run by Congu Affliated organisations EGU or SGU WGU Affliated clubs 

TT and LTD are just society meets , same with forum meets which are just societies 

The scores will come from the many organised club opens throughout the year which are deemed Non Q - is 4BBB or any other team type format which previously results didn't get sent back to the club. 

Have also confirmed that with my counterpart at Woburn


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## Fish (Dec 29, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Were is the evidence to back this statement about TT and LTD etc not having to comply, surely if I play in them and meet the criteria laid down I am expected to inform my club, also events we've held in the past like Race to Hillside etc, if they meet the criteria shouldn't we submit them scores ourselves as well?
		
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Is it not a case of scores under competition conditions only played and orchestrated by golf clubs per se, i.e. Opens, BB's, AM AM's etc, and then the addition of 'regular' roll ups, if so does that exclude all external comps that are not run through a golf club but a sponsor?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 29, 2016)

Fish said:



			Is it not a case of scores under competition conditions only played and orchestrated by golf clubs per se, i.e. Opens, BB's, AM AM's etc, and then the addition of 'regular' roll ups, if so does that exclude all external comps that are not run through a golf club but a sponsor?
		
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That's my question Robin, best wait for his email reply from EGU and Congu as everything else appears to be educated guesswork until then.
The document headline says Non Qualifying Scores and the template provided to help clubs doesn't ask for who organised the event just the Venue, Format, Course SSS etc.


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## Crazyface (Dec 29, 2016)

Sorry about starting the other thread. I'm a tad late for this as well, but I'll add my bit. Their off their stupid heads. Who is going to provide details of a cracking score elsewhere? It also ends any discussion about whether scores are returned to home clubs when players play well and win away from home (bandits!!!!!!!! big big bandits!!!!!). It's just not going to happen. I can assure you of this. Total idiots!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 29, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Sorry about starting the other thread. I'm a tad late for this as well, but I'll add my bit. Their off their stupid heads. Who is going to provide details of a cracking score elsewhere? It also ends any discussion about whether scores are returned to home clubs when players play well and win away from home (bandits!!!!!!!! big big bandits!!!!!). It's just not going to happen. I can assure you of this. Total idiots!
		
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There is also the return sheet for clubs that host Open Comps to fill out and also send back to clubs 

So it's possible that anyone getting high scores in team comps won't be able to hide it as the club hosting the event will have sent the results back to the home clubs


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## Hobbit (Dec 29, 2016)

Crazyface said:



			Sorry about starting the other thread. I'm a tad late for this as well, but I'll add my bit. Their off their stupid heads. Who is going to provide details of a cracking score elsewhere? It also ends any discussion about whether scores are returned to home clubs when players play well and win away from home (bandits!!!!!!!! big big bandits!!!!!). It's just not going to happen. I can assure you of this. Total idiots!
		
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Stay off the Skittles and fizzy drinks CF!! Too many E numbers


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 29, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is also the return sheet for clubs that host Open Comps to fill out and also send back to clubs 

So it's possible that anyone getting high scores in team comps won't be able to hide it as the club hosting the event will have sent the results back to the home clubs
		
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Only for the top 5 places as per YOUR link!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 29, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Only for the top 5 places as per YOUR link!
		
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So anyone getting high results will no doubt be in the Top 5 don't you think ? 

May I suggest at your next AGM you volunteer for the role as Handicap and Comps Secretary - seems you have the right temperament for it and of course the knowledge required


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 29, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So anyone getting high results will no doubt be in the Top 5 don't you think ?
		
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Irrelevant, could be a comp were lot's score under handicap and finish outside top 5 and clubs wouldn't know unless the individual informs them, plus Clubs are only requested to send the paperwork out, not mandated.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 29, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So anyone getting high results will no doubt be in the Top 5 don't you think ? 

May I suggest at your next AGM you volunteer for the role as Handicap and Comps Secretary - seems you have the right temperament for it and of course the knowledge required
		
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Please don't insult me and edit after you post, you're taking the posts away from the subject and getting personal, it's quite simple, read what you post and you won't leave yourself open. Back to topic please.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 29, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Irrelevant, could be a comp were lot's score under handicap and finish outside top 5 and clubs wouldn't know unless the individual informs them, plus Clubs are only requested to send the paperwork out, not mandated.
		
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So I right when I said it's "possible" - cheers for clearing that up

So in your experience of the HC and Competitions systems in place what do you suggest clubs , HC and Comps Secs like myself should do - also how should it be incorporated into the current IT systems that we the Comp and HC secs use on a daily basis , all the while remember that these Non Q's have zero immediate effect on someone's HC.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 29, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Please don't insult me and edit after you post, you're taking the posts away from the subject and getting personal, it's quite simple, read what you post and you won't leave yourself open. Back to topic please.
		
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I'm not insulting you - you appear to have a very strong opinion in regards this current change that will happen and being a HC sec will help you implement and translate it for your clubs members in the way you believe it's being put across.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 29, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So I right when I said it's "possible" - cheers for clearing that up

So in your experience of the HC and Competitions systems in place what do you suggest clubs , HC and Comps Secs like myself should do - also how should it be incorporated into the current IT systems that we the Comp and HC secs use on a daily basis , all the while remember that these Non Q's have zero immediate effect on someone's HC.
		
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Read the thread, you've already been questioned making out how much extra work it's going to cause, resign if you're not happy.
Personally I see it as a positive step, you along with others moan about things like the TT and this may go a small way to removing some bandits, any away comps I play in I will comply with what my club asks for.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 29, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I'm not insulting you - you appear to have a very strong opinion in regards this current change that will happen and being a HC sec will help you implement and translate it for your clubs members in the way you believe it's being put across.
		
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My private life is nothing to do you and I'm asking you to answer the post not the poster, something you state to others in other threads.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 29, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Read the thread, you've already been questioned making out how much extra work it's going to cause, resign if you're not happy.
Personally I see it as a positive step, you along with others moan about things like the TT and this may go a small way to removing some bandits, any away comps I play in I will comply with what my club asks for.
		
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I actually complained that the implementation of it via bits of paper was a backwards step as opposed to using the systems that are now established and in place for all our clubs - use the software but that's all in the thread already.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 29, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			My private life is nothing to do you and I'm asking you to answer the post not the poster, something you state to others in other threads.
		
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What the heck is going on here ?! 

I havent mentioned anything about your private life and I am answering the posts ?. On that very strange note I don't see what's left to say.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Dec 29, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What the heck is going on here ?! 

I havent mentioned anything about your private life and I am answering the posts ?. On that very strange note I don't see what's left to say.
		
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Suggesting I volunteer at the agm, you have no idea what goes on in my life, so please keep your bright ideas to yourself. Last post on this from me.


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## Slab (Dec 30, 2016)

Reading the e-mail on the other thread I wonder why they decided it wouldn't take effect at the time. Why wait for an annual review, if someones deserves a cut then cut at the time 

For me the score for any round on any measured course, home or away, played to the RoG should directly effect handicap
I don't get why it should only be competition golf (& supplemental) that impact handicap

You can still have social & practice rounds with gimmie's & a 2nd ball etc etc that have no bearing, but if it was played to RoG and there's a marker then get it added to handicap

Obviously the logistics of submitting scores have to support the above but I cant think of the downside to a players handicap


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 30, 2016)

Slab said:



			Reading the e-mail on the other thread I wonder why they decided it wouldn't take effect at the time. Why wait for an annual review, if someones deserves a cut then cut at the time 

For me the score for any round on any measured course, home or away, played to the RoG should directly effect handicap
I don't get why it should only be competition golf (& supplemental) that impact handicap

You can still have social & practice rounds with gimmie's & a 2nd ball etc etc that have no bearing, but if it was played to RoG and there's a marker then get it added to handicap

Obviously the logistics of submitting scores have to support the above but I cant think of the downside to a players handicap
		
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Because I suspect that any Away Non Q Comp that people play will be in a team format and you can't cut some from a score in a team comp

Any singles Comp organised by a Congu Affiliated Club in my experience will be a qualifying Comp anyway and will immediately affect someone's HC


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## Imurg (Dec 30, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because I suspect that any Away Non Q Comp that people play will be in a team format and you can't cut some from a score in a team comp
		
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Which begs they question why team events (4BBB) can be used in the AR..? A partnership could be all one sided but they like playing together..
Or performance in Matchplay - you don't have to play well to win, you just have to be better than the other guy..


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## PhilTheFragger (Dec 30, 2016)

Some people on this thread really need to calm down
Agree to disagree and move on, life really is too short


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## Fish (Dec 30, 2016)

Imurg said:



			Which begs they question why team events (4BBB) can be used in the AR..? A partnership could be all one sided but they like playing together..
Or performance in Matchplay - you don't have to play well to win, you just have to be better than the other guy..
		
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I thought this also, it's not like you put everyone's scores down in teans or pairs, I might only come in on 3 or 4 holes which could be good 3 & 4 pointers but the card be excellent. What's sending that card back or in going to achieve!


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 30, 2016)

Imurg said:



			Which begs they question why team events (4BBB) can be used in the AR..? A partnership could be all one sided but they like playing together..
Or performance in Matchplay - you don't have to play well to win, you just have to be better than the other guy..
		
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I use them as extra evidence on top of evidence already gained through the medals etc 

But you do see trends when you look at the matchplays etc - we had one person over a year win - a singles KO ,Winter League 4BBB , Club Foursomes KO and a Greensomes but didn't get the scores to get cut in medals. That gives you the evidence to allow a cut at AR based only on team events but they rare occasions when someone is cut based only on KO and Team


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## Imurg (Dec 30, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I use them as extra evidence on top of evidence already gained through the medals etc 

But you do see trends when you look at the matchplays etc - we had one person over a year win - a singles KO ,Winter League 4BBB , Club Foursomes KO and a Greensomes but didn't get the scores to get cut in medals. That gives you the evidence to allow a cut at AR based only on team events but they rare occasions when someone is cut based only on KO and Team
		
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Circumstancial at best though isn't it?
Like I said, you don't have to play well to win Matchplay, just better...
Gimmees distort scores as well....


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 30, 2016)

Imurg said:



			Circumstancial at best though isn't it?
Like I said, you don't have to play well to win Matchplay, just better...
Gimmees distort scores as well....
		
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All on judgment calls - you know when someone is playing far better than their HC and they use Matchplay events to gain confidence, normally it then transcends into a medal and they get cut from that but on the odd occasion they don't move the form to medals.

It will also depend on the size of the Comp - if it's 8-10 rounds then they are going to have to play well


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## Imurg (Dec 30, 2016)

So how do you use scores from an away 4BBB to judge performance.?
All it shows is the best score on each hole - not who scored it..
In Matchplay, I got to the semi final of a club knockout once. 7 rounds.
All but 1, had they been Medals, would have given me 0.1 back. 
There seems to be a massive assumption that because you win you play well....
I just find it hard to comprehend how performance in, what is really, another form of the game should influence handicap.
If you're going to use Matchplay, 4BBB etc, then use every round played to the RoG....


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## Hobbit (Dec 30, 2016)

Imurg said:



			So how do you use scores from an away 4BBB to judge performance.?
All it shows is the best score on each hole - not who scored it..
In Matchplay, I got to the semi final of a club knockout once. 7 rounds.
All but 1, had they been Medals, would have given me 0.1 back. 
There seems to be a massive assumption that because you win you play well....
I just find it hard to comprehend how performance in, what is really, another form of the game should influence handicap.
If you're going to use Matchplay, 4BBB etc, then use every round played to the RoG....
		
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But if you don't cut the good matchplay player he will continue to scoop matchplays. As to the team comps, you wouldn't use the result from one away comp. If there's a clear history of winning, a cut should follow.

My concern over the use of a history of winning is the cut won't happen till the AR. Someone could scoop right through the summer before a cut was enforced.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 30, 2016)

Imurg said:



			So how do you use scores from an away 4BBB to judge performance.?
All it shows is the best score on each hole - not who scored it..
In Matchplay, I got to the semi final of a club knockout once. 7 rounds.
All but 1, had they been Medals, would have given me 0.1 back. 
There seems to be a massive assumption that because you win you play well....
I just find it hard to comprehend how performance in, what is really, another form of the game should influence handicap.
If you're going to use Matchplay, 4BBB etc, then use every round played to the RoG....
		
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You judge in the same way you would judge home club 4BBB and KO - use your judgement and look for patterns 

It comes down to knowing the players. One off results wouldn't make a difference but if it's part of a run of results then it would stick out when looking at Comp results through the run


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## Fish (Dec 30, 2016)

I won the first comp of the season and was cut 2.7 shots to 17.0, I then made it to the semi finals in both the clubs Greensomes & Foursomes which were played throughout the season, I won the 3-club challenge 5 under handicap, I made it to the regional finals of a singles National Matchplay comp, I've won a handful of roll ups well under handicap, won my fair share of GM meets and played under handicap or to buffer at most of them, won at West Hill in a Mariners comp, won in team events home & away, including some GM ones, just came 2nd the other week in a team event with a full field, BUT, I've not faired well in my monthly medal stroke play qualifiers and going by the rules, as I'm now on 18.0 I should get an additional shot back &#128540;&#128077;&#128514;

So, I have not been cut in my AR and wouldn't expect to as it's only based on Medal comps, but everyone else wants me to be cut, other than my pairs partners & team partners &#128514;&#128514;

Personally I've not had a bad season &#129300;

Would any of you cut me based on the above and if so, to what?


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 30, 2016)

Only things I would have looked at would be the club KO - but as you have had a significant cut already then no further cut would have been applied


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## Old Skier (Dec 30, 2016)

Imurg said:



			Circumstancial at best though isn't it?..
		
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Indeed it is as is most things to do with handicaps other than set Q's.

Its just a guide. Some will use it in a sensible way, other handicap secs will be silly and use it as an excuse to chop people just for the fun of it.

Would I prefer it to be produced electronically, yes, but can I file away a bit of paper and use it a year down the line, yes.


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## Hobbit (Dec 30, 2016)

Fish said:



			I won the first comp of the season and was cut 2.7 shots to 17.0, I then made it to the semi finals in both the clubs Greensomes & Foursomes which were played throughout the season, I won the 3-club challenge 5 under handicap, I made it to the regional finals of a singles National Matchplay comp, I've won a handful of roll ups well under handicap, won my fair share of GM meets and played under handicap or to buffer at most of them, won at West Hill in a Mariners comp, won in team events home & away, including some GM ones, just came 2nd the other week in a team event with a full field, BUT, I've not faired well in my monthly medal stroke play qualifiers and going by the rules, as I'm now on 18.0 I should get an additional shot back &#63004;&#62541;&#62978;

So, I have not been cut in my AR and wouldn't expect to as it's only based on Medal comps, but everyone else wants me to be cut, other than my pairs partners & team partners &#62978;&#62978;

Personally I've not had a bad season &#63764;

Would any of you cut me based on the above and if so, to what?
		
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Greensomes and foursomes you wouldn't get touched for. Not sure why they didn't cut you after the 3 club challenge, if it was a Medal, other than CSS might be affected by the limited number of clubs in a bag - but some people only play with a half set in all comps anyway. Guess they decided it was a non-Q..... I got a cut after a 5 club challenge... GM/society meets, you're safe as they are not run by a recognised/affiliated body, club/county.

Even with the above, no but having seen you at Woodhall I'd give you 5 shots back...:ears:


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## fundy (Dec 30, 2016)

Fish said:



			I won the first comp of the season and was cut 2.7 shots to 17.0, I then made it to the semi finals in both the clubs Greensomes & Foursomes which were played throughout the season, I won the 3-club challenge 5 under handicap, I made it to the regional finals of a singles National Matchplay comp, I've won a handful of roll ups well under handicap, won my fair share of GM meets and played under handicap or to buffer at most of them, won at West Hill in a Mariners comp, won in team events home & away, including some GM ones, just came 2nd the other week in a team event with a full field, BUT, I've not faired well in my monthly medal stroke play qualifiers and going by the rules, as I'm now on 18.0 I should get an additional shot back &#128540;&#128077;&#128514;

So, I have not been cut in my AR and wouldn't expect to as it's only based on Medal comps, but everyone else wants me to be cut, other than my pairs partners & team partners &#128514;&#128514;

Personally I've not had a bad season &#129300;

Would any of you cut me based on the above and if so, to what?
		
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14 feels about right to me, but if I was having a bad day I could justify 12


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## upsidedown (Dec 30, 2016)

bobmac said:



			Don't worry, once we adopt the USGA system, everything will be sorted  

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Works for me Bob, in NZ you played away and left your card there and they inputted the system, in that respect EGU are still in the dark ages wanting you to input via paper forms !!!



Fish said:



			I won the first comp of the season and was cut 2.7 shots to 17.0, I then made it to the semi finals in both the clubs Greensomes & Foursomes which were played throughout the season, I won the 3-club challenge 5 under handicap, I made it to the regional finals of a singles National Matchplay comp, I've won a handful of roll ups well under handicap, won my fair share of GM meets and played under handicap or to buffer at most of them, won at West Hill in a Mariners comp, won in team events home & away, including some GM ones, just came 2nd the other week in a team event with a full field, BUT, I've not faired well in my monthly medal stroke play qualifiers and going by the rules, as I'm now on 18.0 I should get an additional shot back &#128540;&#128077;&#128514;

So, I have not been cut in my AR and wouldn't expect to as it's only based on Medal comps, but everyone else wants me to be cut, other than my pairs partners & team partners &#128514;&#128514;

Personally I've not had a bad season &#129300;

Would any of you cut me based on the above and if so, to what?
		
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Given the way you played at Enville last time I'd happily give you 28  but I like to think that was the start of YOTF :thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 2, 2017)

Spoke to the County HC about it on Saturday after he got my email 

He is awaiting for 100% confirmation but believes it's as most suspect 

The away scores to be given to the Clubs HC are ones gained at Club Opens organised by Affliated clubs on a measured course using HC allocations ( team format ) as within the Congu Manual plus any Single comps that have been deemed Non Q for any reasons. 

Results from non affiliated comps can be given if the player wishes too but they do not have to be taken into consideration during AR - he said players have been able to give their scores if they wish before anyway.

As for the Roll Ups 

It's for Rolls Ups that are organised by the club and the roll up is using the full measured course and in comp conditions - he said most clubs already run them as Qualifiers anyway it's just to mop up a few that run a weekly roll up as Non Official. It doesn't include your roll Ops organised by a club member for a group of players , using gimmies , or HC cuts that are non official etc.


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## 2blue (Jan 3, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Spoke to the County HC about it on Saturday after he got my email 

He is awaiting for 100% confirmation but believes it's as most suspect 

The away scores to be given to the Clubs HC are ones gained at Club Opens organised by Affliated clubs on a measured course using HC allocations ( team format ) as within the Congu Manual plus any Single comps that have been deemed Non Q for any reasons. 

Results from non affiliated comps can be given if the player wishes too but they do not have to be taken into consideration during AR - he said players have been able to give their scores if they wish before anyway.

As for the Roll Ups 

It's for Rolls Ups that are organised by the club and the roll up is using the full measured course and in comp conditions - he said most clubs already run them as Qualifiers anyway it's just to mop up a few that run a weekly roll up as Non Official. It doesn't include your roll Ops organised by a club member for a group of players , using gimmies , or HC cuts that are non official etc.
		
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So.... that's much clearer, hope something official appears..... however, I'm now interested to know how folk would be looking to have those results declared by the players. I know some Clubs already have a file for recordings but I wonder if it would be better that, perhaps, a monthly sheet on a noticeboard would be better as it could then also be monitored by their peers. Yes, those holding the Opens should be sending the top 5 results out but we really want to develop a culture of 'player declaration', don't we??
Also how would you look at applying sanctions for not declaring, as suggested by EGU. Perhaps a  2 x Yellow cards before RED?? or perhaps a lot more discretion in the 1st year use


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## Crazyface (Jan 3, 2017)

It's the golf unions attempting to do something about clubs golfers complaining about "bandits" winning open comps with, handicaps they can, without putting too finer point on it, cheat with. Thing is, it's just a lazy option, putting the responsibility on clubs, rather than actually sorting the problem themselves. 
The solution would be to ensure all software used by clubs could link directly into the Unions and R+A overall H/C records and that ALL club qualifiers and Opens were recorded on the clubs computers. All scores then uploaded. 
But this would cost money and the R+A aren't going to spend money on doing something for their grass root members. They are too concerned on spending huge amounts on upgrading Open venues for the top players and hobnobbing with them. So, in my role as comp sec, and probably H/C sec next season I can tell the R+A IT WON'T HAPPEN AT MY PLACE. (We've already discussed this via e-mail and realised it totally impracticable). So, put the money up R+A and get this sorted properly, you idiots!


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 3, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			It's the golf unions attempting to do something about clubs golfers complaining about "bandits" winning open comps with, handicaps they can, without putting too finer point on it, cheat with. Thing is, it's just a lazy option, putting the responsibility on clubs, rather than actually sorting the problem themselves. 
The solution would be to ensure all software used by clubs could link directly into the Unions and R+A overall H/C records and that ALL club qualifiers and Opens were recorded on the clubs computers. All scores then uploaded. 
But this would cost money and the R+A aren't going to spend money on doing something for their grass root members. They are too concerned on spending huge amounts on upgrading Open venues for the top players and hobnobbing with them. So, in my role as comp sec, and probably H/C sec next season I can tell the R+A IT WON'T HAPPEN AT MY PLACE. (We've already discussed this via e-mail and realised it totally impracticable). So, put the money up R+A and get this sorted properly, you idiots!
		
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What does the R&A have to do with it ? It's nothing to do with them

The software already does all link into the EGU CDH system - the EGU already have all our HCs on a base 

All comp qualifiers and singles Opens are already loaded onto the computers and then sent to the EGU CDH

Most clubs already use their relevant systems for people to enter their team Non Q scores - what the EGU needs to do ( not R&A ) is allow those Non Q scores to be sent to the CDH and then sent to the clubs - I expect that to be the next step. 

You are having a rant at the wrong people - clubs spending money updating courses ?!? Irrelevant 

There is also a lot of responsibility been given to the player - it is their responsibility to inform the clubs


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## Old Skier (Jan 3, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			. So, in my role as comp sec, and probably H/C sec next season I can tell the R+A IT WON'T HAPPEN AT MY PLACE. (We've already discussed this via e-mail and realised it totally impracticable). So, put the money up R+A and get this sorted properly, you idiots!
		
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Looks like you have a lot to learn. As comp sec you should know more than you appear to.


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## Hobbit (Jan 3, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			It's the golf unions attempting to do something about clubs golfers complaining about "bandits" winning open comps with, handicaps they can, without putting too finer point on it, cheat with. Thing is, it's just a lazy option, putting the responsibility on clubs, rather than actually sorting the problem themselves. 
The solution would be to ensure all software used by clubs could link directly into the Unions and R+A overall H/C records and that ALL club qualifiers and Opens were recorded on the clubs computers. All scores then uploaded. 
But this would cost money and the R+A aren't going to spend money on doing something for their grass root members. They are too concerned on spending huge amounts on upgrading Open venues for the top players and hobnobbing with them. So, in my role as comp sec, and probably H/C sec next season I can tell the R+A IT WON'T HAPPEN AT MY PLACE. (We've already discussed this via e-mail and realised it totally impracticable). So, put the money up R+A and get this sorted properly, you idiots!
		
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The responsibility for implementing any changes, and the responsibility for managing handicaps, has always rested with the clubs. How else can it be done? As to the cost; what cost? You already have a system, which includes reviews. It sounds like your club is one of the lazy ones and is partly responsible for the cheats anyway, i.e. you're not managing it as you should.

Under the previous General play rule, rule 19, the clubs already had the authority/option to manage a player's handicap if away scores weren't returned. Unfortunately, a number of clubs, either holding Opens or knowing players were playing away, didn't exercise their responsibility. As a result, EGU have instigated the changes.

Looks to me like the EGU is forcing clubs to do what they should have been doing anyway, and good on them for that. Hopefully your club will wake up and smell the coffee...


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## Old Skier (Jan 5, 2017)

Email received from EG today stating that the software developers are looking at ways for Open BB etc being integrated through the CDH system and automating returns however it is up to clubs at present to advise members of the new requirements.


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## upsidedown (Jan 5, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Email received from EG today stating that the software developers are looking at ways for Open BB etc being integrated through the CDH system and automating returns however it is up to *clubs at present to advise members of the new requirements.*

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Having talked to our handicap sec that wont be happening any time soon which I feel is disappointing


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## 2blue (Jan 11, 2017)

I see EG have revised the statement Version 2 10th Jan. It clarifies a few things like its.....  NQ Comps *away* from the players home Club that are returned.
We're moving on it, after one or two members of our Men's Committee thought it should be EG doing it all, until we got them to realize that in fact the responsibility rests with each Club.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 11, 2017)

2blue said:



			I see EG have revised the statement Version 2 10th Jan. It clarifies a few things like its.....  NQ Comps *away* from the players home Club that are returned.
We're moving on it, after one or two members of our Men's Committee thought it should be EG doing it all, until we got them to realize that in fact the responsibility rests with each Club.
		
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They have also removed the bit about roll ups being Qualfiying comps as well


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 11, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They have also removed the bit about roll ups being Qualfiying comps as well
		
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Just thought I'd give you a quick heads up Phil,Liverpool are currently playing & its on SS1 &#128077;&#127995;


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## Old Skier (Jan 11, 2017)

Not sure the wording makes any clearer, I preferred LP's explanation 

"Following the original notification sent out on the 23[SUP]rd[/SUP] December 2016, we have listened to the feedback we have received regarding the wording and made amendment where required.We would like to apologise for any inconvenience/concerns that this caused.

England Golf have made the decision that as of 1[SUP]st[/SUP] January 2017, all players are required to return non-qualifying scores to their home club.
In order to do this England Golf will enforce Clause 4.5b and 8.12 of the CONGU UHS: â€“
*Clause 4.5b -* The Union has some discretionary powers.  It may require a player to return to his Home Club information regarding scores in Non-Qualifying Competitions as provided by Clause 8.12.
*Clause 8.12 -* The player must: Provide to his Home Club information regarding scores in Non-Qualifying Competitions if so directed by a Union â€“ see Clause 4.5(b).
*This will take effect from the 1st January 2017."*


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## Old Skier (Jan 11, 2017)

Pin-seeker said:



			Just thought I'd give you a quick heads up Phil,Liverpool are currently playing & its on SS1 &#62541;&#62459;
		
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Havnt you got homework to do.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 11, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Havnt you got homework to do.
		
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He is a grown man trolling like a child - leave him to it , most ignore him now


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## Pin-seeker (Jan 11, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He is a grown man trolling like a child - leave him to it , most ignore him now
		
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That's gratitude for you.

Not really in a position to be calling people a troll are you Phil.


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## 2blue (Jan 12, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They have also removed the bit about roll ups being Qualfiying comps as well
		
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Looks like MatchPlay games are out as well


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## guest100718 (Jun 28, 2017)

do society cards need to be handed in?


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## 2blue (Jun 28, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			do society cards need to be handed in?
		
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Yes, it would seem....  if they use Competition rules & played on a full course with Congu H/caps used


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## guest100718 (Jun 28, 2017)

it's supposed to be a society handicap but some have been using thier club.


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## 2blue (Jun 28, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			it's supposed to be a society handicap but some have been *using thier club*.
		
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So I'd say YES....  conditions fulfilled


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## Old Skier (Jun 28, 2017)

My thoughts would be No unless it is an affiliated society.


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## 2blue (Jun 28, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			My thoughts would be No unless it is an affiliated society.
		
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Yep....  its not at all clear, really.....  just conditions to be fulfilled..... still working hard to get our members to realise they have a responsibility in this direction that they should/must fulfil. 
I'm very interested to know just how strongly are Clubs pursuing those they learn have played in AWAY Comps/Events??...  I've a feeling its going to be a long learning process for many members especially those who's results you need most.


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## Old Skier (Jun 28, 2017)

2blue said:



			Yep....  its not at all clear, really.....  just conditions to be fulfilled..... still working hard to get our members to realise they have a responsibility in this direction that they should/must fulfil. 
I'm very interested to know just how strongly are Clubs pursuing those they learn have played in AWAY Comps/Events??...  I've a feeling its going to be a long learning process for many members especially those who's results you need most.
		
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Had a conversation with the county vets (who are affiliated) secretary today:

Me: You had a team comp last week, where are the results sheets

He: Why

To many organizations and clubs want affiliation but don't want to follow the rules.


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## duncan mackie (Jun 28, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Had a conversation with the county vets (who are affiliated) secretary today:

Me: You had a team comp last week, where are the results sheets

He: Why

To many organizations and clubs want affiliation but don't want to follow the rules.
		
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Indeed - I discussed this with someone a few days ago and, on finding out they had won the event asked if they had returned the scores....they hadn't even been able to get the card back at the time, and there was no mechnism for reporting the individual scores of the 4 players in any event!


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## 2blue (Jun 28, 2017)

duncan mackie said:



			Indeed - I discussed this with someone a few days ago and, on finding out they had won the event asked if they had returned the scores....they hadn't even been able to get the card back at the time, and there was no mechnism for reporting the individual scores of the 4 players in any event!
		
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It's the Team-score that gets recorded, surely, as there's unlikely to be any complete individual scores..... well that's what I've been recording to our V1....  folk can at least remember their team score, then get the other info from the Club's web-site....  again what I've been doing.


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## duncan mackie (Jun 28, 2017)

2blue said:



			It's the Team-score that gets recorded, surely, as there's unlikely to be any complete individual scores..... well that's what I've been recording to our V1....  folk can at least remember their team score, then get the other info from the Club's web-site....  again what I've been doing.
		
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You would like to think that but, in all innocence, I asked 2 members of the same team what there score was and got different numbers back!
I agree the principle but there's also huge discrepancy in formats and courses ie 2 from 4, 3 from 4, 2 from 4 with 1 host. In MORE 3 from 4 is the only really significant one in teams of this nature, and again needs a lot of returns to make that relevant.
Appreciate we are in the minority in that we already actively sort out trends in this area before - ironically one of these players was cut 2 shots in last year's AR with his being part of a winning team at this event! In practice his having been a past captain at that club and knowing a tricky course really well combined with being able to select the host each time were probably more significant than handicap flaws (he also played in 30+ qualifiers and wasn't flagged by the system for review at all). He's on the 0.1 trail in club Q comps already.
It's great that people are thinking about it, and that the principles are out in the open, but it's a very blunt instrument!


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## rosecott (Jun 28, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			My thoughts would be No unless it is an affiliated society.
		
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I've been around handicapping for a long time but I've never heard of an affiliated society. The CONGU manual talks only of affiliated clubs.


Can you tell me more?


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## Old Skier (Jun 28, 2017)

rosecott said:



			I've been around handicapping for a long time but I've never heard of an affiliated society. The CONGU manual talks only of affiliated clubs.


Can you tell me more?
		
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Possibly a bad choice of words. Our County vets until this year were run more as a society and were not under the umbrella of County golf, they are now hence my post about following the rules.


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## guest100718 (Jun 28, 2017)

I'm still none the wiser


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## rosecott (Jun 29, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Possibly a bad choice of words. Our County vets until this year were run more as a society and were not under the umbrella of County golf, they are now hence my post about following the rules.
		
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So, if I read you correctly, the (Devon?) County Veterans are a club affiliated to the County Union and England Golf and the members pay an annual affiliation fee, the same as all us club members.


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## 2blue (Jun 29, 2017)

rosecott said:



			So, if I read you correctly, the (Devon?) County Veterans are a club affiliated to the County Union and England Golf and the members pay an annual affiliation fee, the same as all us club members.
		
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Does affiliation matter in the context of this thread?


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## Old Skier (Jun 29, 2017)

rosecott said:



			So, if I read you correctly, the (Devon?) County Veterans are a club affiliated to the County Union and England Golf and the members pay an annual affiliation fee, the same as all us club members.
		
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I think it's more that the DMVGA comps come under the same umbrella as county comps as members are already affiliated through their clubs.


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## Old Skier (Jun 29, 2017)

2blue said:



			Does affiliation matter in the context of this thread?
		
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Only in the context that you can be de-affiliated if you fail to follow the directives laid down by the governing bodies.


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## 2blue (Jun 29, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Only in the context that you can be de-affiliated if you fail to follow the directives laid down by the governing bodies.
		
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Ah...  gottya :thup:


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