# How does Scottish Independence affect the rest of the Union?



## One Planer (Sep 10, 2014)

Genuine question as I have no idea?

What would the financial and political implications for the remainder of the Union should Scotland gain independence?


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## patricks148 (Sep 10, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Genuine question as I have no idea?

What would the financial and political implications for the remainder of the Union should Scotland gain independence?
		
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You will pretty much be stuck with the Tories for the foreseeable future and The Lib Dems will lose a good few seats as well, so will again be out of it in my view.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 10, 2014)

You will be stuck for ten years, being told what to do by Boris & the Kippers [great name for a band]


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## Val (Sep 10, 2014)

A weaker economy

A weaker currency

A one party rule

And if you live in the north an even greater divide from the south 

The negatives are unthinkable, all you folk living in the remainder of the UK should think long and hard about what a break up may mean. We have just left 5 years of recession, we will re-enter it again pretty soon would be my guess.


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## jp5 (Sep 10, 2014)

Valentino said:



			A weaker economy

A weaker currency

A one party rule

And if you live in the north an even greater divide from the south 

The negatives are unthinkable, *all you folk living in the remainder of the UK should think long and hard about what a break up may mean*. We have just left 5 years of recession, we will re-enter it again pretty soon would be my guess.
		
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What good will that do?


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## Val (Sep 10, 2014)

jp5 said:



			What good will that do?
		
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Right now it won't do nothing other than prepare for what lies ahead


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 10, 2014)

Valentino said:



			A weaker economy

A weaker currency

A one party rule

And if you live in the north an even greater divide from the south 

The negatives are unthinkable, all you folk living in the remainder of the UK should think long and hard about what a break up may mean. We have just left 5 years of recession, we will re-enter it again pretty soon would be my guess.
		
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I would advise the northern counties to start meaningful debate to join Scotland.
Just think for one moment of the benefits a new Scotish border drawn from Lancaster to Scarborough would bring.


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## Val (Sep 10, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I would advise the northern counties to start meaningful debate to join Scotland.
Just think for one moment of the benefits a new Scotish border drawn from Lancaster to Scarborough would bring.
		
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Now your just being stupid for the sake of it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 10, 2014)

Valentino said:



			Now your just being stupid for the sake of it.
		
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Not really I think the English northern counties feel as much disenfranchised from London/Westminster as the Scots.


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## One Planer (Sep 10, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not really I think the English northern counties feel as much disenfranchised from London/Westminster as the Scots.
		
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But in the same vein as most Scots, proud of their nationality. 

No really viable IMO


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 10, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Genuine question as I have no idea?

What would the financial and political implications for the remainder of the Union should Scotland gain independence?
		
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Start listening to the radio and watching the BBC News channel - the implications for rUK if a YES are being looked at and worried about in depth thjese last few days - you'll have no shortage of information coming your way.  The impact on a rUK is huge and everywhere.  And in fact the impact of a NO - given what Westminster is throwing at the Scottish electorate this week - is also very significa.  That is why some English Westminster MPs are getting very het up about it - Westminster not having been consulted about these powers and impact on England - with them just being the thoughts of the government and opposition leaders.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 10, 2014)

I find it staggering that the rUK seem to have no idea about the changes a YES vote will bring to them.

The value of the pound should some sort of CU not be agreed would be a big worry
Trident and the British Forces.
rUK's diminished role in all World Organisations, foreign policy and spending, embassy/ambassadors etc
The role of the Royal Family
The fact that no one can come up with a better name than rUk for the former UK.
Towards the bottom of the pile would be the use of the words United Kingdom, Great Britain and the Union Flag.

My daughter meets many English visitors to Scotland and is quite astounded how arrogant and ignorant many are towards the referendum. Some even demand she tells them which way she is will vote.


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 10, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I find it staggering that the rUK seem to have no idea about the changes a YES vote will bring to them.
The fact that no one can come up with a better name than rUk for the former UK.
Towards the bottom of the pile would be the use of the words United Kingdom, Great Britain and the Union Flag.
		
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I'd expect it to be The United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Or just The United Kingdom, for short.... No?


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## Old Skier (Sep 10, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Not really I think the English northern counties feel as much disenfranchised from London/Westminster as the Scots.
		
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That's what I like about the Yes guys, balanced debate. 

Chip on both shoulders.


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## Old Skier (Sep 10, 2014)

Two or three medals less in the Olympic table.


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## Old Skier (Sep 10, 2014)

No more pipe bands in the British Army.


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## masterosouffle (Sep 10, 2014)

Interesting article here http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/b5c48254-376e-11e4-bd0a-00144feabdc0.html?segid=0100320


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 10, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I would advise the northern counties to start meaningful debate to join Scotland.
Just think for one moment of the benefits a new Scotish border drawn from Lancaster to Scarborough would bring.
		
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Amongst all the ridiculous comments I have read from you over the last 5 days that is the cherry on the top 

The sooner the vote happens the better. 

Reading all the stuff over the last couple of days with lots of arrogance from both sides of politicians how anyone can trust any of them to do the right thing I will never know

I believe the effect on the UK ( we will still be the UK ) will be minimal - pride and disappointment will be the biggest feelings and then the English/Welsh and N Irish can continue being a great national and Scotland can attempt to back up their words about becoming one of the richest countries in the World - no turning back though - no return if things go horribly wrong , no bail out - will be interesting to see how many leave the country when you have half the country voting to stay part of the UK.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 10, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			No more pipe bands in the British Army.
		
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Scots regiments want to stay part of the British Army according to their commander in chief


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## Old Skier (Sep 10, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Scots regiments want to stay part of the British Army according to their commander in chief
		
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There was me hoping. Pipes, a good enough reason to grant them independence really.


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## Old Skier (Sep 10, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			interesting to see how many leave the country when you have half the country voting to stay part of the UK.
		
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Half of them are here already. Strange that but as it's going to be such a fair and great society I presume they will be all back up north leaving many jobs so on a positive note more reduction in unemployment.


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## Old Skier (Sep 10, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I find it staggering that the rUK seem to have no idea about the changes a YES vote will bring to them.
		
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Just like those who live in Scotland then.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 10, 2014)

For anyone who doesn't understand why the UK is great together then watch the Invictus Games

That's people from every shore of the UK showing the world exactly how Great and United we are


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## Hobbit (Sep 10, 2014)

The UK's current trading deficit is approx 4.4%. rUK trading deficit without the oil revenue approx 7.1%. Interest rates would rise, which means everything would cost more, and mortgages would rise. A CU would buffer that to a certain extent, but nowhere near totally. Which means interests rates would rise both north and south of the border.

The (supposed) funding deficit for SNP's wishlist, assuming there is a deficit, would mean they'd have to borrow more from the banks at a higher rate.

Sooooo, in one respect NO currency union might be a better option in terms of managing post Yes interest rates BUT then there'd be the cost of setting up a Scottish central bank and currency... 

Simply put, no one wins. But maybe one or the other loses more.

*Now dons tin hat and awaits the hysterical rantings of the Yes people, who can be spotted by their rose tinted spectacles*


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## One Planer (Sep 10, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			*Now dons tin hat and awaits the hysterical rantings of the Yes people, who can be spotted by their rose tinted spectacles*
		
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:rofl:


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## Dellboy (Sep 10, 2014)

It doesn't and won't as its going to be a NO vote by 3.5% (you wait and see)


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 10, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			The UK's current trading deficit is approx 4.4%. rUK trading deficit without the oil revenue approx 7.1%. Interest rates would rise, which means everything would cost more, and mortgages would rise. A CU would buffer that to a certain extent, but nowhere near totally. Which means interests rates would rise both north and south of the border.

The (supposed) funding deficit for SNP's wishlist, assuming there is a deficit, would mean they'd have to borrow more from the banks at a higher rate.

Sooooo, in one respect NO currency union might be a better option in terms of managing post Yes interest rates BUT then there'd be the cost of setting up a Scottish central bank and currency... 

Simply put, no one wins. But maybe one or the other loses more.

*Now dons tin hat and awaits the hysterical rantings of the Yes people, who can be spotted by their rose tinted spectacles*
		
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Some yes people don't care about the negatives - they are meaningless 

They arent interested in facts and figures about how everyone will suffer - they just want to be able to be on their own and make their own mistakes 

Instead of Westminster making mistakes for them they want a Scottish Parliament to make the mistakes for them so they can feel pride in their own nation making the same mistakes as the rest of the world


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 10, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			I'd expect it to be The United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Or just The United Kingdom, for short.... No?
		
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How can you have a United Kingdom of one Kingdom


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 10, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How can you have a United Kingdom of one Kingdom
		
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Have you forgotten about Wales and N Ireland then ?

The UK will still be the UK without Scotland


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 10, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			How can you have a United Kingdom of one Kingdom
		
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Doon, if you and your ilk take us out of the union the rest of them can call their country whatever the hell they like. Your stream of consciousness on here is getting rather old.


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## Dodger (Sep 10, 2014)

Valentino said:



			A weaker economy

A weaker currency

A one party rule

And if you live in the north an even greater divide from the south 

The negatives are unthinkable, all you folk living in the remainder of the UK should think long and hard about what a break up may mean. We have just left 5 years of recession, we will re-enter it again pretty soon would be *my guess*.
		
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Bingo.

You said it.


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## User62651 (Sep 10, 2014)

Maybe this appauling state of affairs between the have and the have nots in England will worsen as any remnant of a left of centre political party and better distribution of wealth disappear? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvpddmSCEAAjT5j.png


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## Val (Sep 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Scots regiments want to stay part of the British Army according to their commander in chief
		
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Scottish regiment singular now unfortunately. The Royal Regiment of Scotland.


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## Val (Sep 11, 2014)

Dodger said:



			Bingo.

You said it.
		
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As is everyone's opinion, a guess. I would bet mine to be a reasonably accurate assumption given the uncertainty.


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## Val (Sep 11, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Just like those who live in Scotland then.
		
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And post on here


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Have you forgotten about Wales and N Ireland then ?

The UK will still be the UK without Scotland
		
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Wales is a Principality and NI is a province. England and Scotland are the only Kingdoms.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 11, 2014)

maxfli65 said:



			Maybe this appauling state of affairs between the have and the have nots in England will worsen as any remnant of a left of centre political party and better distribution of wealth disappear? https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvpddmSCEAAjT5j.png

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I find it quite mind blowing that England has 8 out of the 10 poorest regions in Europe, Whilst London sits, probably proudly to some, at No1 richest.

I can't see that changing anytime soon.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



*I find it staggering that the rUK seem to have no idea about the changes a YES vote will bring to them.*

The value of the pound should some sort of CU not be agreed would be a big worry
Trident and the British Forces.
rUK's diminished role in all World Organisations, foreign policy and spending, embassy/ambassadors etc
The role of the Royal Family
The fact that no one can come up with a better name than rUk for the former UK.
Towards the bottom of the pile would be the use of the words United Kingdom, Great Britain and the Union Flag.

My daughter meets many English visitors to Scotland and is quite astounded how arrogant and ignorant many are towards the referendum. Some even demand she tells them which way she is will vote.
		
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^^^This

And btw - if a YES I don't think there is any need to remove the saltire from the Union Flag.  If rUK wants to keep flag as it is that's fine by me.  The blue can signify the sea lapping the shores of the country if you need symbolism - or indeed the blue sky above.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 11, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I find it staggering that the rUK seem to have no idea about the changes a YES vote will bring to them.

The value of the pound should some sort of CU not be agreed would be a big worry
Trident and the British Forces.
rUK's diminished role in all World Organisations, foreign policy and spending, embassy/ambassadors etc
The role of the Royal Family
The fact that no one can come up with a better name than rUk for the former UK.
Towards the bottom of the pile would be the use of the words United Kingdom, Great Britain and the Union Flag.

My daughter meets many English visitors to Scotland and is quite astounded how arrogant and ignorant many are towards the referendum. Some even demand she tells them which way she is will vote.
		
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This is time for a famous quote: 

"Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof"

There is absolutely nothing we can do about whether Scotland votes YES or NO. As yourself and Adi have reminded us many times.

So why on earth should we worry about all of those things you list above (a number of which are ridiculous and petty).

If, god forbid, Scotland votes YES, we will have to deal with them, as and when.

If you vote NO, then they won't need to be thought about. 

I would much prefer the government to deal with the actual issues in the world, rather than try to predict what may or may not happen after the vote.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			This is time for a famous quote: 

"Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof"

There is absolutely nothing we can do about whether Scotland votes YES or NO. As yourself and Adi have reminded us many times.

So why on earth should we worry about all of those things you list above (a number of which are ridiculous and petty).

If, god forbid, Scotland votes YES, we will have to deal with them, as and when.

*If you vote NO, then they won't need to be thought about. *

I would much prefer the government to deal with the actual issues in the world, rather than try to predict what may or may not happen after the vote.
		
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Maybe not - until after a NO the implications of all that is currently being offered to Scotland by the three musketeers is understood.  And that little bundle will present it's own very significant issues for England, Wales and NI.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 11, 2014)

Trident alone is a major changer.
I would imagine a good percentage of English folk would prefer to see it scrapped rather than move to England.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Trident alone is a major changer.
I would imagine a good percentage of English folk would prefer to see it scrapped rather than move to England.
		
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Which George Robertson (last night on Newsnight) doesn't seem to accept as a possibility.  He sees Scotland expelling Trident as an action incompatible with membership of NATO.  And GR is stuck with the notion that rUK and an iScotland need to be a major player on the international peacekeeping and peacemaking scene.  Maybe rUK want that - but I'm not too sure that an iScotland wouldn't just be happy with watching the skies and seas off it's coasts and the North Atlantic - something that NATO I am sure requires and would be happy for an iScotland to pick up.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 11, 2014)

The North of Scotland has always been a vital cog in NATO sea and air defense.
I see no reason why that should change. We have plenty bases to share.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2014)

It will be up to NATO to decide what Scotland will require to do to gain NATO membership

Would certainly need to increase their proposed defence budget of Â£25mil a year


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 11, 2014)

This particular thread nicely sums up why some English people find some Scots tiresome.

It is a debate on what Scottish independence will mean for the rest of the UK and yet it seems to have a large number of Scots resident in Scotland telling us what will happen specifically in England.

And then one of them has the gall to refer to some English folk as arrogant!

You couldn't make it up.


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## Conman85 (Sep 11, 2014)

Originally Posted by *Liverpoolphil* 





_Have you forgotten about Wales and N Ireland then ?

The UK will still be the UK without Scotland_



Doon frae Troon said:



			Wales is a Principality and NI is a province. England and Scotland are the only Kingdoms.
		
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Owned!


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 11, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			something that NATO I am sure requires and would be happy for an iScotland to pick up.
		
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I didn't realise you knew exactly what NATO wants!


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## Piece (Sep 11, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I find it staggering that the rUK seem to have no idea about the changes a YES vote will bring to them. 

My daughter meets many English visitors to Scotland and is quite astounded how arrogant and ignorant many are towards the referendum. Some even demand she tells them which way she is will vote.
		
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It's because most of us in England don't really care TBH. We can spout our opinion but it doesn't matter a jot because we can't back it up with a vote.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 11, 2014)

Conman85 said:









 Originally Posted by *Liverpoolphil* 





_Have you forgotten about Wales and N Ireland then ?

The UK will still be the UK without Scotland_



Owned!
		
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Don't like to disillusion you but (not for the first time) DfT is wrong.

The title is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

There is, therefore, no need for a change if Scotland votes to be independent of Great Britain.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			I didn't realise you knew exactly what NATO wants!
		
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Well if they don't have any need for anyone to fulfill a North Atlantic role all well and good - changed days.  And if an iScotland isn't in NATO and they need the role filled - then maybe they'll just get Denmark, Iceland, Norway or even the rUK to fulfill it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			Don't like to disillusion you but (not for the first time) DfT is wrong.

The title is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

There is, therefore, no need for a change if Scotland votes to be independent of Great Britain.
		
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Not what I've read - and anyway - what is this Great Britain Scotland is going to be independent of?   Maybe the United Kingdom of Great Britain refers to the union of the two kingdoms that form most of the island of Great Britain.


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## Adi2Dassler (Sep 11, 2014)

Depends if you mean philosophically or economically?


Philosophically I think it could be a good thing for England (I'm not discussing Wales, they seem to be quite happy with their lot and doubtful they'll change) I've always been surprised at how English nationalism is almost a dirty phrase, highjacked by fuds like Farage.That's not the England I know and love. Polarised politically with left and right evenly matched, a warm and welcoming country on the whole with the occasional idiot (much like Scotland) thrown in to entertain and confuse the masses.The one main problem is the political elite, the ruling class that seems to pervade your politics and therefore your political parties.An inventive, democratic country with a huge role to play in shaping it's relationship with iScotland,Europe and beyond.Bizarre how being a proud English man automatically defaults to some deranged right winger or lager swilling football mentalist.

Economically England is too reliant on the square mile and the south east, a deliberate ploy by the ruling classes I mention above.Areas like the North East/West left to rot as they feed the insatiable beast that is the south east.England has a history of manufacturing on a par with Germany, why has that skill been lost but theirs has not?I do think that losing Scotland, our investment in the Â£, the loss of out contribution to imports/exports, oil revenues will be difficult to fill, but after a wee bit of pain, both countries will adjust and flourish.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 11, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not what I've read - and anyway - what is this Great Britain Scotland is going to be independent of?   Maybe the United Kingdom of Great Britain refers to the union of the two kingdoms that form most of the island of Great Britain.
		
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So an arrogant Scot dismisses Wales.

Great Britain refers, currently, to England, Scotland and Wales. Thus, in the event of Scottish independence two-thirds of GB will still be there.


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## Imurg (Sep 11, 2014)

Change happens
Some changes are good, some are not
We will take it in our stride whatever happens
Not living in Scotland I have no say over Independence - I regularly find myself chuckling over the fact of a Scottish Independence referendum being open to non-Scots who happen to live within the border


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 11, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			So an arrogant Scot dismisses Wales.

Great Britain refers, currently, to England, Scotland and Wales. Thus, in the event of Scottish independence two-thirds of GB will still be there.
		
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Great Britain is the name of the island, i.e. a landmass, not of a political construct. It'll all still be there post-independence but would comprise two separate independent countries.


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## patricks148 (Sep 11, 2014)

Imurg said:



			Change happens
Some changes are good, some are not
We will take it in our stride whatever happens
Not living in Scotland I have no say over Independence - I regularly find myself chuckling over the fact of a Scottish Independence referendum being open to non-Scots who happen to live within the border
		
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what's strange about residents of Scotland getting a vote, how else would they do it?


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## Conman85 (Sep 11, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			Don't like to disillusion you but (not for the first time) DfT is wrong.

The title is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

There is, therefore, no need for a change if Scotland votes to be independent of Great Britain.
		
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DFT is 100% correct, learn your history! 

The United Kingdom is only referred to that, as it's the uniting of two kingdoms from 1707.......Scotland and England! If Scotland leaves it would no longer be a uniting of Kingdoms! 

They may not change the name, but the reference would be outdated and have no significant meaning!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			So an arrogant Scot dismisses Wales.

Great Britain refers, currently, to England, Scotland and Wales. Thus, in the event of Scottish independence two-thirds of GB will still be there.
		
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I was quite deliberately precise - Wales is not a kingdom and therefore when I refer to the 'united kingdom' that is in the name of the nation as being that of two kingdoms I meant exactly that.  I did not dismiss Wales - it forms the remainder of the island of Great Britain that is neither the Kingdom of England nor the Kingdom of Scotland.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			what's strange about residents of Scotland getting a vote, how else would they do it?
		
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Certainly don't want the likes of me having a vote as I am disturbed - I listen to Kenneth McKellar


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 11, 2014)

Conman85 said:



			DFT is 100% correct, learn your history! The United Kingdom is only referred to that, as it's the uniting of two kingdoms from 1707.......Scotland and England! If Scotland leaves it would no longer be a uniting of Kingdoms! They may not change the name, but the reference would be outdated and have no significant meaning!
		
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I know it is difficult for you but is now 2014 not 1707 and both nationally and internationally the title United Kingdom refers to Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

This title will continue to be used no matter what but then perhaps we (the rUK) are not obsessed with and bogged down by history as you appear to be.


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## Piece (Sep 11, 2014)

Conman85 said:



*DFT is 100% correct,* learn your history! The United Kingdom is only referred to that, as it's the uniting of two kingdoms from 1707.......Scotland and England!
		
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Nearly, but not quite. Here's the bit missing in your history knowledge:

Google is your friend => 

"The Principality of Wales was incorporated into the Kingdom of England in 1536. In 1707, the kingdoms of Scotland and England were united to form the Kingdom of Great Britain, which in 1801, united with the Kingdom of Ireland to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. In 1922, five-sixths of Ireland seceded from the UK, leaving the present formulation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"


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## ger147 (Sep 11, 2014)

Conman85 said:



			DFT is 100% correct, learn your history! 

The United Kingdom is only referred to that, as it's the uniting of two kingdoms from 1707.......Scotland and England! If Scotland leaves it would no longer be a uniting of Kingdoms! 

They may not change the name, but the reference would be outdated and have no significant meaning!
		
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If you're going to dig people up for not knowing their history you should make sure you're correct yourself.

England and Scotland joining in 1707 formed the Kingdom of Great Britain. The word United didn't appear until 1801 when the Kingdoms of Great Britain and Ireland "united" to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. This changed to its present name in 1922 when the Irish Free State left and became the Republic of Ireland.


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## chrisd (Sep 11, 2014)

ger147 said:



			If you're going to dig people up for not knowing their history you should make sure you're correct yourself.

England and Scotland joining in 1707 formed the Kingdom of Great Britain. The word United didn't appear until 1801 when the Kingdoms of Great Britain and Ireland "united" to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. This changed to its present name in 1922 when the Irish Free State left and became the Republic of Ireland.
		
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Is this the new rules section ....... I know that can get anal!!


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## ger147 (Sep 11, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Is this the new rules section ....... I know that can get anal!!
		
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It beats trying to think of a name for a Scottish pound. My personal suggestion is the Quid, still waiting for a response from Holyrood...


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 11, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			This particular thread nicely sums up why some English people find some Scots tiresome.

It is a debate on what Scottish independence will mean for the rest of the UK and yet it seems to have a large number of Scots resident in Scotland telling us what will happen specifically in England.

And then one of them has the gall to refer to some English folk as arrogant!



You couldn't make it up.
		
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I think it is you who is making it up if you are referring to my post, I was quoting a comment made by my English daughter.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 11, 2014)

Hang on, does this mean that like in Northern Ireland, we are going to be able to keep a bit of Scotland, for all the "NO" voters?

If the YES Vote does win, the NO's will need about 49.9% of the country, and I imagine the vote will be that close.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 11, 2014)

So we are all agreed then the new title should be KENI.
Kingdom of England and NI.
Look forward to cheering them on in the Olympics.


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## Conman85 (Sep 11, 2014)

Piece said:



			Nearly, but not quite. Here's the bit missing in your history knowledge:

Google is your friend => 

"The Principality of Wales was incorporated into the Kingdom of England in 1536. In 1707, the kingdoms of Scotland and England were united to form the Kingdom of Great Britain, which in 1801, united with the Kingdom of Ireland to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. In 1922, five-sixths of Ireland seceded from the UK, leaving the present formulation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"
		
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"If you're going to dig people up for not knowing their history you should make sure you're correct yourself.

England and Scotland joining in 1707 formed the Kingdom of Great Britain. The word United didn't appear until 1801 when the Kingdoms of Great Britain and Ireland "united" to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. This changed to its present name in 1922 when the Irish Free State left and became the Republic of Ireland."

*The point that seems to be going over heads is that Wales and NI are not kingdoms! The original Uniting of Kingdoms was in 1707. With Ireland gone already and should Scotland go, the only remaining kingdom would be England.

No history name lessons needed when they don't involve Kingdoms!*


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2014)

John Redwood has a view...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ed-Prime-Minister-s-pledges-tax-spending.html


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Hang on, does this mean that like in Northern Ireland, we are going to be able to keep a bit of Scotland, for all the "NO" voters?

If the YES Vote does win, the NO's will need about 49.9% of the country, and I imagine the vote will be that close.
		
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You've already got Berwick


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 11, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You've already kind of got Berwick 

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We! You live here remember


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 11, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			John Redwood has a view...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ed-Prime-Minister-s-pledges-tax-spending.html

Click to expand...

I thought KENI politicians would be quick to recognise promises that the Three Amegos would find difficult/impossible to deliver.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			We! You live here remember 

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damn - sometimes slip up between England and the English


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 11, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think it is you who is making it up if you are referring to my post, I was quoting a comment made by my English daughter.
		
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Was it you or your daughter who was telling us of the consequences for the pound, our standing in the world, etc; ad nauseam.

I have previously stated that I am in favour of the Union but I have never professed to know what will be the consequences of independence for Scotland.

Might I suggest you try similar restraint for the UK, which, as I said, would not need a change of name in the event of Scottish independence.


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## Adi2Dassler (Sep 11, 2014)

Here's one of the main problems for England, it's utter reliance on London and Londons utter reliance on English tax payers to keep funding it.Â£1.3 Trillion.Now no way will The Mayor or The PM say to the City, cough up to allow us to keep feeding you.No way.So Tax payers in rUK or the UK will contribute.Insanity.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...ain-its-position-as-world-leader-9637505.html


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So we are all agreed then the new title should be KENI.
Kingdom of England and NI.
Look forward to cheering them on in the Olympics.
		
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Your comments get more and more ridiculous 

We will be the UK regardless of the vote


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## JCW (Sep 11, 2014)

It wont happen , come voting day most will get cold feet and vote no , too many do not know the full facts and what will happen so they will stick with what they know


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 11, 2014)

Conman85 said:



"If you're going to dig people up for not knowing their history you should make sure you're correct yourself.

England and Scotland joining in 1707 formed the Kingdom of Great Britain. The word United didn't appear until 1801 when the Kingdoms of Great Britain and Ireland "united" to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. This changed to its present name in 1922 when the Irish Free State left and became the Republic of Ireland."

*The point that seems to be going over heads is that Wales and NI are not kingdoms! The original Uniting of Kingdoms was in 1707. With Ireland gone already and should Scotland go, the only remaining kingdom would be England.

No history name lessons needed when they don't involve Kingdoms!*

Click to expand...

Well if you are gone what we call the UK has damn all to do with you!


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2014)

Conman85 said:



"If you're going to dig people up for not knowing their history you should make sure you're correct yourself.

England and Scotland joining in 1707 formed the Kingdom of Great Britain. The word United didn't appear until 1801 when the Kingdoms of Great Britain and Ireland "united" to form the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. This changed to its present name in 1922 when the Irish Free State left and became the Republic of Ireland."

*The point that seems to be going over heads is that Wales and NI are not kingdoms! The original Uniting of Kingdoms was in 1707. With Ireland gone already and should Scotland go, the only remaining kingdom would be England.

No history name lessons needed when they don't involve Kingdoms!*

Click to expand...

We can call ourselves what ever we want - if you leave it will have zero to do with you.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 11, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			Well if you are gone what we call the UK has damn all to do with you!
		
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I suggest you look at the title of this thread.

Why are you and Phil so sure that the UK will still be called the UK when it's name makes no sense whatsoever?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 11, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I suggest you look at the title of this thread.

Why are you and Phil so sure that the UK will still be called the UK when it's name makes no sense whatsoever?
		
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See my previous statement.

In the event of a Yes vote you could call Scotland Milkandhoneyland for all that I will care and we can call the UK the United Kingdom for all that it has to do with you.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I suggest you look at the title of this thread.

Why are you and Phil so sure that the UK will still be called the UK when it's name makes no sense whatsoever?
		
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Because regardless what you or others think we will still be countries collective known as UK - Scotland disappearing won't make a difference


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 11, 2014)

For the pedants out there I suggest a quick reference to the definition of "a Kingdom" i.e. a nation whose Supreme Ruler is a King and/or a Queen.

As this has not been the case in this country for many generations the term United Kingdom cannot and, therefore, should not be taken too literally.


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## woody69 (Sep 11, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I suggest you look at the title of this thread.

Why are you and Phil so sure that the UK will still be called the UK when it's name makes no sense whatsoever?
		
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The name? That's the best you can come up with as to how the rest of the UK will be affected if Scotland vote yes? 

In answer to the OP, the impact would be very little I would suggest. A potential benefit could see free'd up tax money due to the fact the British government currently provides extra subsidies to the people of Scotland for public services, although there is an argument that Scotland is a net contributor to the UK once North Sea petroleum revenues are taken into account.

Thereâ€™s the West Lothian question, which concerns the fact that MPs representing Scottish constituencies in the Westminster parliament are allowed to vote on legislation that does not affect their electorates. This would immediately disappear with the establishment of an independent Scotland, which English people ought to see as a benefit. After all, why should the Scots have a say on issues like English education when English MPs have absolutely no control over the Scottish equivalent?

Either way, pretty minor factors I would suggest. A yes vote is much worse for Scotland in the long run IMHO, but lets see what they decide.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 11, 2014)

Makes about as much sense as a United Kingdom of Belgium to me.


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## fundy (Sep 11, 2014)

Is it just me thats bored of the Scots telling us what will happen to the rest of us IF (and they wont) vote to leave us next week?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Makes about as much sense as a United Kingdom of Belgium to me.
		
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Well coming from the person who suggested that the Scottish border been dragged down to include the North of England it's no surprise that it make no sense to you 

Belgium is one country - the relevance is zero nil zilch nothing


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 11, 2014)

woody69 said:



			The name? That's the best you can come up with as to how the rest of the UK will be affected if Scotland vote yes?
		
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You must have failed to see my earlier post......the name was the one thing on the list that seemed to energise the English posters.
I think I said it was minor issue on the earlier post.
The more important issues on the list like Trident etc seem to accepted.


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## Conman85 (Sep 11, 2014)

I am debating a topic of why it would seem pointless to continue calling the three remaining countries the United Kingdom...........Yet you are taking it as an attack on England. It's not, i'm merely pointing out that the name would not hold the same prestige it once had, so why continue using it?

Should we go, what happens when Wales depart after us, are you going to continue trying to cling on to United?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2014)

Conman85 said:



			I am debating a topic of why it would seem pointless to continue calling the three remaining countries the United Kingdom...........Yet you are taking it as an attack on England. It's not, i'm merely pointing out that the name would not hold the same prestige it once had, so why continue using it?

Should we go what happens when Wales depart after us, are you going to continue trying to cling on to United?
		
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Why would it not hold the same prestige ?

Sorry but Scotland going won't change the prestige in the name - right now I reckon the prestige could actually increase 

Are Wales leaving as well ? Well that's a whole new fantasy that's not been mentioned yet

But as been mentioned - it will have nothing to do with you and your fellow Scots if you vote yes. We will call ourselves what we like.


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## MarkA (Sep 11, 2014)

I've tried to ignore these threads but the bile and angst being spewed is unbelievable.
We the English have no control over how you vote but the vast majority of us would be sad to see you go. What however is unbelievable is that anyone can vote for the future of their country without knowing what currency  they are adopting, what central banking arrangements they have and the ramifications it will have on interest rates, funding deficits and the wider economy. Most of the financial institutions based in Scotland have indicated they will move South and your National Banks are owned by the taxpayer.
If you Scots can believe anything that Salmond tells you other than that he is on a power crazed trip then I really feel sorry for you - he is not providing any actual answers only generalisations and that is not enough to decide a Country's future on. If it doesn't work Who will you come crying to? You need to wake up and smell the coffee - devolution is one thing independence totally different. If you can't see the sum of 66m people is better than independence of 5m.  Personally I think it will be a No vote but the independence movement will continue to agitate and we''l have the same issue again in 10 years, but then we are 10 years nearer to the Oil having run out.


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## Conman85 (Sep 11, 2014)

fundy said:



			Is it just me thats bored of the Scots telling us what will happen to the rest of us IF (and they wont) vote to leave us next week?
		
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Is it just me that finds it ludicrous you would come on a Scottish Independence forum to moan about Scots?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2014)

fundy said:



			Is it just me thats bored of the Scots telling us what will happen to the rest of us IF (and they wont) vote to leave us next week?
		
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Of that there is no doubt 

The attitude of some towards leaving the UK on here I thought was more in the minority - seems it's spreading so now I hope they get their yes vote and disappear and leave us to continue being a great United Kingdom whilst they wonder what will happen when their oil runs out and the fantasy of independence disappears and they are left with the reality that's it's not a rosy on their own as they thought


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2014)

Conman85 said:



			Is it just me that finds it ludicrous you would come on a Scottish Independence forum to moan about Scots?
		
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It's not a Scottish Independence forum 

This is a thread aimed at the Union after a possible yes vote - a Union which will have nothing to do with you.


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## fundy (Sep 11, 2014)

Conman85 said:



			Is it just me that finds it ludicrous you would come on a Scottish Independence forum to moan about Scots?
		
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weirdest post ever? last time i looked this was a golf forum


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why would it not hold the same prestige ?

Sorry but Scotland going won't change the prestige in the name - right now I reckon the prestige could actually increase 

Are Wales leaving as well ? Well that's a whole new fantasy that's not been mentioned yet

But as been mentioned - it will have nothing to do with you and your fellow Scots if you vote yes. We will call ourselves what we like.
		
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Besides if YES - the Union of Crowns of 1606 remains; the Act of Union of 1707 is that which will be repealed (or done away with).


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## Conman85 (Sep 11, 2014)

fundy said:



			weirdest post ever? last time i looked this was a golf forum
		
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My apologies, thread!

So once again:

Is it just me that finds it ludicrous you would come on a Scottish Independence THREAD to moan about Scots?


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## Conman85 (Sep 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why would it not hold the same prestige ?

Sorry but Scotland going won't change the prestige in the name - right now I reckon the prestige could actually increase 

Are Wales leaving as well ? Well that's a whole new fantasy that's not been mentioned yet

But as been mentioned - it will have nothing to do with you and your fellow Scots if you vote yes. We will call ourselves what we like.
		
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Judging by this post you shouldn't even be allowed access to a keyboard, at least it's funny though ill give you that!:thup:


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## MarkA (Sep 11, 2014)

MarkA said:



			I've tried to ignore these threads but the bile and angst being spewed is unbelievable.
We the English have no control over how you vote but the vast majority of us would be sad to see you go. What however is unbelievable is that anyone can vote for the future of their country without knowing what currency  they are adopting, what central banking arrangements they have and the ramifications it will have on interest rates, funding deficits and the wider economy. Most of the financial institutions based in Scotland have indicated they will move South and your National Banks are owned by the taxpayer.
If you Scots can believe anything that Salmond tells you other than that he is on a power crazed trip then I really feel sorry for you - he is not providing any actual answers only generalisations and that is not enough to decide a Country's future on. If it doesn't work Who will you come crying to? You need to wake up and smell the coffee - devolution is one thing independence totally different. If you can't see the sum of 66m people is better than independence of 5m.  Personally I think it will be a No vote but the independence movement will continue to agitate and we''l have the same issue again in 10 years, but then we are 10 years nearer to the Oil having run out.
		
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Incidentally the name of the constituent parts is really irrelevent surely?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2014)

Conman85 said:



			Judging by this post you shouldn't even be allowed access to a keyboard, at least it's funny though ill give you that!:thup:
		
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Says the person who suggests Wales will follow ?


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## Conman85 (Sep 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Says the person who suggests Wales will follow ?
		
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Do you not watch the news? They have already made murmurings..............if we go, I have no doubt they will go too!

But, personally I think the vote will be no, better the devil you know and all that will likely prevail! It has been fun listening to some of this the last couple of months though!


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 11, 2014)

Conman85 said:



			My apologies, thread!

So once again:

Is it just me that finds it ludicrous you would come on a Scottish Independence THREAD to moan about Scots?
		
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Ah, see, you're getting confused with reading two words of the title, and thinking it's about Scots.

It's not.

It has been pointed out many times, we have no control over what our Scottish brethren do next Thursday. zilch.

We're talking about the UK/rUK/fUK/WENI (Whatever you want to call it), POST yes vote, if that did happen.

If fundy feels the Scots would make UK (et al) worse because of going independent, then of course he will moan about it, as we are discussing post YES.

Please do keep up Conman. 

With that name, I'm just checking, you're not Alex Salmond are you???


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2014)

Conman85 said:



			Do you not watch the news? They have already made murmurings..............if we go, I have no doubt they will go too!

But, personally I think the vote will be no, better the devil you know and all that will likely prevail! It has been fun listening to some of this the last couple of months though!
		
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Please point me to these news murmurings that suggest Wales will look for independence if Scotland vote yes


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 11, 2014)

Conman85 said:



			Do you not watch the news? They have already made murmurings..............if we go, I have no doubt they will go too!

But, personally I think the vote will be no, better the devil you know and all that will likely prevail! It has been fun listening to some of this the last couple of months though!
		
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Did you not see the last time independence was raised in Wales? Overwhelming decline for the idea.


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## Adi2Dassler (Sep 11, 2014)

Conman85 said:



			Do you not watch the news? They have already made murmurings..............if we go, I have no doubt they will go too!

But, personally I think the vote will be no, better the devil you know and all that will likely prevail! It has been fun listening to some of this the last couple of months though!
		
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Disagree.Wales is a weird, alternative parallel place to the extent if it was just renames Walesshire and every facet of a principality removed, I actually think the Welsh would endorse that.They seem very happy with their lot in life.Strange folk.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Disagree.Wales is a weird, alternative parallel place to the extent if it was just renames Walesshire and every facet of a principality removed, I actually think the Welsh would endorse that.They seem very happy with their lot in life.Strange folk.
		
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So because they want to stay part of the union and contribute to continuing to make the UK great that makes them weird and strange ?!


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## Conman85 (Sep 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Please point me to these news murmurings that suggest Wales will look for independence if Scotland vote yes
		
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*Google is your friend, John Major was forced to address it on Tuesday on the Radio. This was after several polls showed an increase in the number of voters wanting an independent Wales should Scotland go it alone. I think the number jumped from 12% to 17% in favour of independence. It just takes a welsh Salmond and you never know!
*
_Do you not watch the news? They have already made murmurings..............if we go, I have no doubt they will go too!_

_But, personally I think the vote will be no, better the devil you know and all that will likely prevail! It has been fun listening to some of this the last couple of months though!

_Did you not see the last time independence was raised in Wales? Overwhelming decline for the idea.

*Yes just like I also seen a resounding yes in 2011 when they had the law making referendum. People always want more power, it's human nature!*


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## Conman85 (Sep 11, 2014)

How about for old times sake we all sing Rule Britannia?


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## turkish (Sep 11, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Disagree.Wales is a weird, alternative parallel place to the extent if it was just renames Walesshire and every facet of a principality removed, I actually think the Welsh would endorse that.They seem very happy with their lot in life.Strange folk.
		
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A very noble and respectful view of another country.... Do you pigeon hole other nations so quickly and easily?


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## Adi2Dassler (Sep 11, 2014)

turkish said:



			A very noble and respectful view of another country.... Do you pigeon hole other nations so quickly and easily?
		
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Ach, I was only jesting.I've got relatives down there and they all seem sound.I do find the lack of desire for self determination very strange,though.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2014)

Conman85 said:



*Google is your friend, John Major was forced to address it on Tuesday on the Radio. This was after several polls showed an increase in the number of voters wanting an independent Wales should Scotland go it alone. I think the number jumped from 12% to 17% in favour of independence. It just takes a welsh Salmond and you never know!
*
_Do you not watch the news? They have already made murmurings..............if we go, I have no doubt they will go too!_

_But, personally I think the vote will be no, better the devil you know and all that will likely prevail! It has been fun listening to some of this the last couple of months though!

_Did you not see the last time independence was raised in Wales? Overwhelming decline for the idea.

*Yes just like I also seen a resounding yes in 2011 when they had the law making referendum. People always want more power, it's human nature!*

Click to expand...

17% :rofl:

And one person suggests they may possibly look at independence ( that person not even being Welsh ) 

Laughably thin


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Ach, I was only jesting.I've got relatives down there and they all seem sound.I do find the lack of desire for self determination very strange,though.
		
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Why strange ? Maybe they realise that being self determined isn't all it's cracked up to be 

Maybe they realise they strength in numbers the UK provides 

Maybe they realise the pitfalls and dangers of going Independant could destroy the country 

Maybe just maybe they don't fancy having a country that struggles


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why strange ? Maybe they realise that being self determined isn't all it's cracked up to be 

Maybe they realise they strength in numbers the UK provides 

Maybe they realise the pitfalls and dangers of going Independant could destroy the country 

Maybe just maybe they don't fancy having a country that struggles
		
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Maybe cause North East Wales is just part of metropolitan Liverpool


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## Conman85 (Sep 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			17% :rofl:

And one person suggests they may possibly look at independence ( that person not even being Welsh ) 

Laughably thin
		
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I think you either missed or don't understand the meaning of the word murmuring 

I'll also add that the yes vote was sitting at just 23% in favour around August 2013, so tides aren't long in changing!


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe cause North East Wales is just part of *metropolitan Liverpool* 

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The cathedral or University ?


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## Hobbit (Sep 11, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe cause North East Wales is just part of metropolitan Liverpool 

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You may put a winky smiley there, but having lived there for a number of years I can tell you it is very English. Many from the Wirral and Liverpool moved across the border in the 70's before the oil crisis... it was heaving with "calm down's, calm down's."

But go across to north west & mid Wales and you could be in a village pub and not hear a word of english spoken.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2014)

Conman85 said:



			I think you either missed or don't understand the meaning of the word murmuring 

I'll also add that the yes vote was sitting at just 23% in favour around August 2013, so tides aren't long in changing!
		
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As I said - thin -even thinner than a wafer.


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## Conman85 (Sep 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			As I said - thin -even thinner than a wafer.
		
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And its this kind of disregard for the minority that had Westminister swashbuckling North on Wednesday to plead for votes!


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2014)

Conman85 said:



			And its this kind of disregard for the minority that had Westminister swashbuckling North on Wednesday to plead for votes!
		
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Not disregarding anything 

Wales IMO will never vote for independence - expect they won't even ask for a vote on it.


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## Dodger (Sep 11, 2014)

I couldn't give a flying toss what the UK wants to call itself.

Us no longer being part of it is all I care about.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 11, 2014)

I have a general rule in life

" There is no point in worrying about things that are outside of your control"

So stuff will or wont happen and we shall just adapt if necessary and move forward with whats left of our lives.

But one thing is for sure, Im not worried


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## delc (Sep 11, 2014)

I've heard that Yorkshire will want independence next!!!


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## Beezerk (Sep 11, 2014)

delc said:



			I've heard that Yorkshire will want independence next!!! 

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Specially if we win at t' cricket :cheers:


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2014)

Beezerk said:



			Specially if we win at t' cricket :cheers:
		
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The English would even vote for Yorkshire Independence


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I have a general rule in life

" There is no point in worrying about things that are outside of your control"

So stuff will or wont happen and we shall just adapt if necessary and move forward with whats left of our lives.

But one thing is for sure, Im not worried 

Click to expand...

What happens in Scotland is not in your control but the impact on England on whatever happens up there certainly is.  You have an MP.  You might want to ask him* what he knows about how the powers being offer to Scotland might affect his constituents.

*or her


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What happens in Scotland is not in your control but the impact on England on whatever happens up there certainly is.  You have an MP.  You might want to ask him* what he knows about how the powers being offer to Scotland might affect his constituents.

*or her
		
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If there is a yes vote - will you be returning to Scotland ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If there is a yes vote - will you be returning to Scotland ?
		
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Not immediately - maybe sometime in the future - why?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not immediately - maybe sometime in the future - why?
		
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Well it's quite clear you want an Independant Scotland and all that comes with that so would expect you to leave the UK/England and join your fellow Yes people in Scotland ? If you don't leave then im not sure why ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well it's quite clear you want an Independant Scotland and all that comes with that so would expect you to leave the UK/England and join your fellow Yes people in Scotland ? If you don't leave then im not sure why ?
		
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In my heart I might - but I'm not so sure.  And living outside of Scotland for 30yrs I cannot tell how I would feel if I lived there and had a vote.  I voted SNP from the mid-70s to early 80s when it didn't really matter and independance wasn't on the cards or in truth even particularly a 'within my lifetime' aspiration.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In my heart I might - but I'm not so sure.  And living outside of Scotland for 30yrs I cannot tell how I would feel if I lived there and had a vote.
		
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Well that is certainly a massive mixed message ?!

Are you suggesting that when it came down to it if you had a vote you would vote No !

Well I'm surprised with that with the way you have posted on the subject


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well that is certainly a massive mixed message ?!

Are you suggesting that when it came down to it if you had a vote you would vote No !

Well I'm surprised with that with the way you have posted on the subject
		
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I don't honestly know how I'd vote because I don't live in Scotland and as mentioned I have lived in England for 30yrs.  My heart is YES but that comes from feelings from way back then.  Today I look from apart.  Over the years I have heard a lot of rubbish spouted by Scots about England (we have gone over this stuff at length in this place) and that has annoyed me.  I am closer to a NO than I ever thought I would be.  

But I am very annoyed at our Westminster politicians doing what they are doing now at this very late stage - throwing a huge stone into the water and making great waves of uncertainty around what a NO would mean without there being time for the offers to be properly understood - by anyone - and that seems to me to be disrespect to the process and the sort of thing that might have made me a YES


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## Birchy (Sep 11, 2014)

As somebody English living in England I couldn't really care too much if the neighbours want a detached house. If they can round up enough idiots that think yes is a good idea then good luck because the future wont be so rosy carrying that amount of fools. They clearly haven't considered the negatives of a Yes vote.

I see most people who have their head screwed on are voting NO, I hope for their sake there's enough of them.

As for the English down here who don't really have a say in it, im sure we will cope. Not the type to throw the towel in no matter what happens so I wont be losing any sleep.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't honestly know how I'd vote because I don't live in Scotland and as mentioned I have lived in England for 30yrs.  My heart is YES but that comes from feelings from way back then.  Today I look from apart.  Over the years I have heard a lot of rubbish spouted by Scots about England (we have gone over this stuff at length in this place) and that has annoyed me.  I am closer to a NO than I ever thought I would be.  

But I am very annoyed at our Westminster politicians doing what they are doing now at this very late stage - throwing a huge stone into the water and making great waves of uncertainty around what a NO would mean without there being time for the offers to be properly understood - by anyone - and that seems to me to be disrespect to the process and the sort of thing that might have made me a YES
		
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Maybe I have misread things but that goes against everything your attitude has displayed on him 

Lots of "We" in regards Scotland and lots of posts that appear to be very supportive of a yes vote


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe I have misread things but that goes against everything your attitude has displayed on him 

Lots of "We" in regards Scotland and lots of posts that appear to be very supportive of a yes vote
		
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I told you I am at heart YES and so will tend to be 'protective' when I see arguments made against a YES based upon false premises; or incorrect information; or deliberate misconstruing of information.  I do not need to have the same feelings the other way around - I am not at all protective of the NO position even although I find myself with NO inklings - if I had a vote I might feel different.

And regards my use of We in the context of this discussion - I have to force myself to not refer to We when a point is made about the Scottish electorate - and I believe I usually succeed.  I will include myself in We (Scots) when talking about us  Scots in general and not directly in relation to the vote itself.


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## patricks148 (Sep 11, 2014)

Birchy said:



			As somebody English living in England I couldn't really care too much if the neighbours want a detached house. If they can round up enough idiots that think yes is a good idea then good luck because the future wont be so rosy carrying that amount of fools. They clearly haven't considered the negatives of a Yes vote.

I see most people who have their head screwed on are voting NO, I hope for their sake there's enough of them.

As for the English down here who don't really have a say in it, im sure we will cope. Not the type to throw the towel in no matter what happens so I wont be losing any sleep.
		
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is that your expert opinion


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 11, 2014)

Conman85 said:



			Do you not watch the news? They have already made murmurings..............if we go, I have no doubt they will go too!

But, personally I think the vote will be no, better the devil you know and all that will likely prevail! It has been fun listening to some of this the last couple of months though!
		
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Not based on the latest polls in Wales which show fewer than one person in six supports the idea of Welsh independence.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I told you I am at heart YES and so will tend to be 'protective' when I see arguments made against a YES based upon false premises; or incorrect information; or deliberate misconstruing of information.  I do not need to have the same feelings the other way around - I am not at all protective of the NO position even although I find myself with NO inklings - if I had a vote I might feel different.

And regards my use of We in the context of this discussion - I have to force myself to not refer to We when a point is made about the Scottish electorate - and I believe I usually succeed.  I will include myself in We (Scots) when talking about us  Scots in general and not directly in relation to the vote itself.
		
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And that's how I see a lot of people I'm Scotland right now 

Heart says - let's be free and run our country how we see fit and without the shackles of Westminster 

But head says that's realistically it's possibly and in fact properly not a great idea in the current state of the world


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## Birchy (Sep 11, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			is that your expert opinion

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Yep.

Im confident I will be on the more prosperous side of the border in the long run if the split does happen. If Scotland wants to let a load of idiots take them to the dogs then good luck :thup:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2014)

Birchy said:



			As somebody English living in England I couldn't really care too much if the neighbours want a detached house. If they can round up enough idiots that think yes is a good idea then good luck because the future wont be so rosy carrying that amount of fools. They clearly haven't considered the negatives of a Yes vote.

I see most people who have their head screwed on are voting NO, I hope for their sake there's enough of them.

As for the English down here who don't really have a say in it, im sure we will cope. Not the type to throw the towel in no matter what happens so I wont be losing any sleep.
		
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But if you live in a semi and your neighbours plan to knock out whole lumps of the party wall their side you'll just happily let them get on with it.  And if you get mega cracks in your side, subsidence or collapse you'll deal with it then.


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## Birchy (Sep 11, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But if you live in a semi and your neighbours plan to knock out whole lumps of the party wall their side you'll just happily let them get on with it.  And if you get mega cracks in your side, subsidence or collapse you'll deal with it then.
		
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Yep. The wall will get built up and the house will look as good as new. Pain in the arse but will get over it.

The neighbours will have a good deal more rebuilding to do though.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 11, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Yep. The wall will get built up and the house will look as good as new. Pain in the arse but will get over it.

The neighbours will have a good deal more rebuilding to do though.
		
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You'll be expecting the neighbours to pay for your damage and they might contest?  

Surely easier to make sure that they have all the proper planning permissions and party wall agreements signed by you so that work is done in a controlled way with your agreement so that if anything goes wrong they are liable.  You actually wouldn't just let them get on with it - you'd get your risk mitigation and contingency plans in place before they started.


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## Val (Sep 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Of that there is no doubt 

The attitude of some towards leaving the UK on here I thought was more in the minority - seems it's spreading so now I hope they get their yes vote and disappear and leave us to continue being a great United Kingdom whilst they wonder what will happen when their oil runs out and the fantasy of independence disappears and they are left with the reality that's it's not a rosy on their own as they thought
		
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Don't tar us all with that brush Phil


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 11, 2014)

Valentino said:



			Don't tar us all with that brush Phil
		
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Don't worry Val think it's quite clear that there is an obvious divide and bit a research this afternoon clearly points to a minority with the attitude towards leaving the UK:thup:


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## Birchy (Sep 11, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You'll be expecting the neighbours to pay for your damage and they might contest?  

Surely easier to make sure that they have all the proper planning permissions and party wall agreements signed by you so that work is done in a controlled way with your agreement so that if anything goes wrong they are liable.  You actually wouldn't just let them get on with it - you'd get your risk mitigation and contingency plans in place before they started.
		
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As far as im concerned they can get on with it and clear off if thats what they really want. Theres plenty enough skilled people fix any mess thats left behind.

Should the neighbours rebuilding not go to plan it would be massively embarrassing should they come back down the road cap in hand wanting to put our houses back together. Especially when there was no real reason to detatch them in the first place.


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## Old Skier (Sep 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But as been mentioned - it will have nothing to do with you and your fellow Scots if you vote yes. We will call ourselves what we like.
		
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And we will be free from those winging whining minority of wee Scotsmen who hopefully will at last stop being so insulting and very close to racist about the RUK. Although I suspect at least one of them along with SLH (who try's to sound like a patriotic Scotsman without the bottle to go back home) on this thread don't even live in the country or even the UK.


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## Old Skier (Sep 11, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Disagree.Wales is a weird, alternative parallel place to the extent if it was just renames Walesshire and every facet of a principality removed, I actually think the Welsh would endorse that.They seem very happy with their lot in life.Strange folk.
		
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Your an insulting little scrote at times.


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## Old Skier (Sep 11, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not immediately - maybe sometime in the future - why?
		
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Not got the balls for that.


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## Foxholer (Sep 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Don't worry Val think it's quite clear that there is an obvious divide and bit a research this afternoon clearly points to a minority with the attitude towards leaving the UK:thup:
		
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Egad! All this money being spent on surveys and Phil sorts it with 'a bit of research this afternoon'! 

Watch out MORI et al, your business is liable to collapse!

What was this phenomenal 'research' that you did? Ring up the 5 Mc/Macs in the company phone list and ask them - getting 3 Nos 1 Yes and a Don't Know?


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## Sweep (Sep 12, 2014)

To get back on thread....
It should be remembered that Scotland is a nation of around 5 million people in a (current) union of 55 million. Much of it is very beautiful countryside and highlands, so let's not get carried away with stories of recessions and depressions.
Economically, it's debatable, but I can't see how it will greatly effect the rest of the Union. The much hyped oil revenue has to be considered, but then so do all the jobs coming south when all the big companies move out of Scotland 
A new harbour to replace Faslane will bring in more jobs -if we need one for all our nuclear subs and the military will all just move south.
My companys dealings and that of others to Scotland may become more expensive to our Scottish customers if an export or import tax / duty is applied through Scotland not being a part of the EU. Currency transfer rates will apply if Scotland does not keep the pound and the banks will do quite well out of that.
Socially is probably more interesting with more anti English /anti Scottish sentiment, as we are already beginning to see.
Most importantly in my view, is the effect of Scottish independence on Northern Ireland. It has to be considered highly likely it will stir feelings among the republicans in NI and this could create trouble at what seems to be a very delicate time.
That also leads on to how places like Spain will view Scottish independence. I can't see the Spanish Central government voting to allow Scotland into the EU, considering their own issues with Catalan and Basque independence campaigns. Nothing to do with the UK, but worth considering nonetheless.


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## Simbo (Sep 12, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why would it not hold the same prestige ?

*Sorry but Scotland going won't change the prestige in the name - right now I reckon the prestige could actually increase 
*
Are Wales leaving as well ? Well that's a whole new fantasy that's not been mentioned yet

But as been mentioned - it will have nothing to do with you and your fellow Scots if you vote yes. We will call ourselves what we like.
		
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This is the same contemptuous arrogant attitude that Westminster gives out regarding Scotland. Which is resulting in a lot of yes votes.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 12, 2014)

Simbo said:



			This is the same contemptuous arrogant attitude that Westminster gives out regarding Scotland. Which is resulting in a lot of yes votes.
		
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A long the lines of the same arrogant attitude displayed by the Yes campaign towards England

My post was in response to someone displaying that attitude.


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## Old Skier (Sep 12, 2014)

Simbo said:



			This is the same contemptuous arrogant attitude that Westminster gives out regarding Scotland. Which is resulting in a lot of yes votes.
		
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Should be measured against the contemptuos arragance shown by some on this site.  If there is a Yes vote the problem iscot is going to have is they will have nobody else to blame for their woes.


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## chrisd (Sep 12, 2014)

Has anyone heard rumour that if the vote is NO that England might have a vote to extricate itself from the union as we're fed up with a lot of the anti England attitude we keep hearing through this forum?

Anyway, if Scotland says YES it would appear that the Labour Party would lose about 40 MP's and it would mean that WE would probably get the party WE voted for and not a coalition with Lib Dems so a YES vote would be a Godsend (not that I believe in God)


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## ger147 (Sep 12, 2014)

chrisd said:



			Has anyone heard rumour that if the vote is NO that England might have a vote to extricate itself from the union as we're fed up with a lot of the anti England attitude we keep hearing through this forum?

Anyway, if Scotland says YES it would appear that the Labour Party would lose about 40 MP's and it would mean that WE would probably get the party WE voted for and not a coalition with Lib Dems so a YES vote would be a Godsend (not that I believe in God)
		
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I haven't heard that rumour but there are rumours circulating north of the wall this morning that the Loch Ness monster has announced that it will re-locate to Lake Windemere if Scotland votes Yes. Sir Jeremey Heywood has denied claims that the Loch Ness monster was spotted entering 10 Downing Street last night.


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## chrisd (Sep 12, 2014)

ger147 said:



			Sir Jeremey Heywood has denied claims that the Loch Ness monster was spotted entering 10 Downing Street last night.
		
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That'd be that use lump Nick Clegg, he swims around in circles, never there when you want to see him and all his promises are myths!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			And we will be free from those winging whining minority of wee Scotsmen who hopefully will at last stop being so insulting and very close to racist about the RUK. Although I suspect at least one of them along with SLH (who try's to sound like a patriotic Scotsman without the bottle to go back home) on this thread don't even live in the country or even the UK.
		
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			...without the bottle to go back home
		
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I am married to an English girl and have English-born children.  My wife is not particularly keen to live in Scotland and even if she was she would not move as she wants to be closer to her elderly mother in Derbyshire.  So when we move from Surrey, probably in the next 3-4 yrs, we will most likely move to Derbyshire or South Yorkshire.  I would certainly return to Scotland if my wife concurred - but I can't see it happening.


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## Conman85 (Sep 12, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A long the lines of the same arrogant attitude displayed by the Yes campaign towards England

*My post was in response to someone displaying that attitude.*

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See that's you putting words in peoples mouth..................the Union would lose its prestige, you can't cut an arm off and still be a supermodel it's just common sense. 

It's not a slant on the remaining countries! As like it or not, we are not as prestigious as we once were back in the glory days of industry.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 12, 2014)

Conman85 said:



			See that's you putting words in peoples mouth..................the Union would lose its prestige, you can't cut an arm off and still be a supermodel it's just common sense.
		
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A but cutting off a cancerous growth would improve the looks of a supermodel!

(That was a joke Scotland, don't worry. You're not a cancerous growth. Honest.)

(Ok, some of the YES voters may act like they are, but even they are ok, deep deep deep deep down.)

(That was another joke)


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 12, 2014)

ger147 said:



			I haven't heard that rumour but there are rumours circulating north of the wall this morning that the Loch Ness monster has announced that it will re-locate to Lake Windemere if Scotland votes Yes. Sir Jeremey Heywood has denied claims that the Loch Ness monster was spotted entering 10 Downing Street last night.
		
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:rofl:

When does Hot Shot Hamish , Our Wullie and the Broons leave


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 12, 2014)

Conman85 said:



			See that's you putting words in peoples mouth..................the Union would lose its prestige, you can't cut an arm off and still be a supermodel it's just common sense. 

It's not a slant on the remaining countries! As like it or not, we are not as prestigious as we once were back in the glory days of industry.
		
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All depends on the state of the arm and if it's holding back the rest of the body :thup:


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 12, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Should be measured against the contemptuos arragance shown by some on this site.  If there is a Yes vote the problem iscot is going to have is they will have nobody else to blame for their woes.
		
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Alec Salmond, surely!

..... and Adi2Dassler!


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## Foxholer (Sep 12, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			A but cutting off a cancerous growth would improve the looks of a supermodel!

(That was a joke Scotland, don't worry. You're not a cancerous growth. Honest.)

(Ok, some of the YES voters may act like they are, but even they are ok, deep deep deep deep down.)

(That was another joke)
		
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That's a fairly condescending 'joke'!

Seems to me that if there is an analogy with a cancerous growth - and its removal - to be made, its the Scots removing the 'cancer' that is Westminster! Whether the 'patient' will survive either the surgery or live long and well afterwards is yet to be seen!


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## Conman85 (Sep 12, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			All depends on the state of the arm and if it's holding back the rest of the body :thup:
		
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That arm has provided the world with many great things..............I thought you as a Liverpool fan might have a bit more respect, given so many ties to home!


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## One Planer (Sep 12, 2014)

Would it be fair to day that the only thing this vote/referendum/debate/posturing has really accomplished is dividing Scotland?


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 12, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Would it be fair to day that the only thing this vote/referendum/debate/posturing has really accomplished is dividing Scotland?
		
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No. But that has certainly been one impact.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 12, 2014)

Conman85 said:



			That arm has provided the world with many great things..............I thought you as a Liverpool fan might have a bit more respect, given so many ties to home!
		
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Sorry but what does me have supporting Liverpool have to do with my opinion on the Independance of Scotland ?

As for respect ? Well you only need to read some of the things said by some yes voters to see that respect was thrown out the window a long time ago.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 12, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			That's a fairly condescending 'joke'!

Seems to me that if there is an analogy with a cancerous growth - and its removal - to be made, its the Scots removing the 'cancer' that is Westminster! Whether the 'patient' will survive either the surgery or live long and well afterwards is yet to be seen!
		
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I never said it was a funny joke!


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## Conman85 (Sep 12, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but what does me have supporting Liverpool have to do with my opinion on the Independance of Scotland ?

As for respect ? Well you only need to read some of the things said by some yes voters to see that respect was thrown out the window a long time ago.
		
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You claimed Scotland was holding you back and I was giving you an example close to home where Scots have helped you out!


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 12, 2014)

Conman85 said:



			You claimed Scotland was holding you back and I was giving you an example close to home where Scots have helped you out!
		
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I didn't "claim" anything 

And what example have you given ?


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## CMAC (Sep 12, 2014)

Gareth said:



			Would it be fair to day that the only thing this vote/referendum/debate/posturing has really accomplished is dividing Scotland?
		
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No, but it has brought the Nationalists to the surface where before they would have small meetings where they could light each others fire about an independent Scotland and the Utopia that would follow. 

A 'friend' is pretty senior within the SNP and the stuff discussed behind closed doors you wouldn't believe if it was in a movie.


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## Foxholer (Sep 12, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Should be measured against the contemptuos arragance shown by some on this site.  If there is a Yes vote the problem iscot is going to have is they will have nobody else to blame for their woes.
		
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H'mm! Seems to me 'the English' have been experts at 'contemptuous arrogance' for a long time - hundreds of years even. Perhaps only bested by 'the French', who seem to consider it an art form! The Scots seem to have a number of ways of eliminating such behaviour, not all, if any, of them subtle!


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## Old Skier (Sep 12, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Seems to me that if there is an analogy with a cancerous growth - and its removal - to be made, its the Scots removing the 'cancer' that is Westminster!
		
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You see that's where it goes to rats IMHO. The Yes vote seems more an anti Westminster thing and not one based around the union which is the UK. Every person over the age of 18 who is a resident and not in clink has the opportunity to vote. The fact that over half choose not to is not the fault of MPs, England, Wales, Scotland (although nothing's normally their fault) or anyone else. As I have said before, the country gets the politicians it deserves and those that don't vote are normally the ones that spend most of the time moaning.


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## Conman85 (Sep 12, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I didn't "claim" anything 

And what example have you given ?
		
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All depends on the state of the arm and if it's holding back the rest of the body :thup:

Was that the other LP that wrote this? The example was the Scottish ties to Liverpool, if you don't know them then google is once again your friend.

TBH I can't be bothered going round in circles with you again, so I'm going to bow out! Enjoy your weekend!


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## Old Skier (Sep 12, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			H'mm! Seems to me 'the English' have been experts at 'contemptuous arrogance' for a long time - hundreds of years even. Perhaps only bested by 'the French', who seem to consider it an art form! The Scots seem to have a number of ways of eliminating such behaviour, not all, if any, of them subtle!
		
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Seems to me, too many Scots have a massive chip on their shoulder and look to others to blame for their lot, but this, and your statement our only our views.

Other views may be purchased from other forums and web sites


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## Old Skier (Sep 12, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I didn't "claim" anything 

And what example have you given ?
		
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Kenny Dalgliesh


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			:rofl:

When does Hot Shot Hamish , Our Wullie and the Broons leave 

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Have you read the Sunday Post recently?  DC Thomson will self-combust if there is a YES - taking The Broons and Oor Wullie with them.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Should be measured against the contemptuos arragance shown by some on this site.  If there is a Yes vote the problem iscot is going to have is they will have nobody else to blame for their woes.
		
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One tangential reason I'd be keen on a YES - Scots will (eventually) only have themselves to blame for problems and congratulate for successes.


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## CMAC (Sep 12, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Have you read the Sunday Post recently?  DC Thomson will self-combust if there is a YES - taking The Broons and Oor Wullie with them.
		
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one can only hope.


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## MarkA (Sep 12, 2014)

We'd hate to lose you but if you cant see the crock of sh*te you're being sold by the SNP you've only got yourselves to blame!
 There's a world of difference between devolution and independence!


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## Adi2Dassler (Sep 12, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Your an insulting little scrote at times.
		
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*you're



Old Skier said:



			Kenny Dalgliesh
		
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*Dalglish


carry on


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## Old Skier (Sep 12, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			*you're



*Dalglish


carry on
		
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Cheers, spelling was not on the job spec in a past life. I think I managed scrote though.


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## Adi2Dassler (Sep 12, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Cheers, spelling was not on the job spec in a past life. I think I managed scrote though.
		
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You can manage as many scrotes as you like, what you do in your own time has nothing to do with me.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2014)

MarkA said:



			We'd hate to lose you but if you cant see the crock of sh*te you're being sold by the SNP you've only got yourselves to blame!
 There's a world of difference between devolution and independence!
		
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Do you not think Scots understand that - good of you to remind them though.


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## JustOne (Sep 12, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But I am very annoyed at our Westminster politicians doing what they are doing now at this very late stage
		
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Haven't Scottish people been in charge of Westminster for many years?


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## MarkA (Sep 12, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Do you not think Scots understand that - good of you to remind them though.
		
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 Actually reading through some of the garbage posted on here it would appear that the main reason for a yes vote is to get rid of Westminster, so basically I don't think that a lot of them actually understand what they're voting for.  But there again its their funeral!


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## Old Skier (Sep 12, 2014)

JustOne said:



			Haven't Scottish people been in charge of Westminster for many years?
		
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But it's not there fault, be reasonable and understanding. Our northern brothers drop all responsibility when such things are pointed out.


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## CMAC (Sep 12, 2014)

MarkA said:



			Actually reading through some of the garbage posted on here it would appear that the main reason for a yes vote is to get rid of Westminster, so basically *I don't think that a lot of them actually understand what they're voting for.  But there again its their funeral*!
		
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spot on, unfortunately they want to drag down the rest of us as well.

If they succeed they will have seriously damaged this once great UNITED Kingdom, and that just saddens me beyond words.


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## Adi2Dassler (Sep 12, 2014)

Lots of sadness on this thread.

Tell you what, if/when YES wins, I'll stand YOU ALL a pint or three in Robbies bar on Leith Walk. It'll be some party, either way. You should see the parties we have when Hibs lose Cup Finals, I'm kinda worried what would happen if we ever win one!


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 12, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Lots of sadness on this thread.

Tell you what, if/when YES wins, I'll stand YOU ALL a pint or three in Robbies bar on Leith Walk. It'll be some party, either way. You should see the parties we have when Hibs lose Cup Finals, I'm kinda worried what would happen if we ever win one!
		
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Could be a good start to the reconciliation... we're all going to have to get on whatever the result and some are going to be unhappy. Hopefully everyone can respect the outcome and see the positives.

Don't worry BTW, it'll never happen. (Hibs that is)


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## chrisd (Sep 12, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Lots of sadness on this thread.

Tell you what, if/when YES wins, I'll stand YOU ALL a pint or three in Robbies bar on Leith Walk. It'll be some party, either way. You should see the parties we have when Hibs lose Cup Finals, I'm kinda worried what would happen if we ever win one!
		
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I reckon Hibs have a better chance of winning the World Cup than YES coming out on top!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2014)

chrisd said:



			I reckon Hibs have a better chance of winning the World Cup than YES coming out on top!
		
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...a wee bit of hyperbole there Chris


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## CMAC (Sep 12, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Lots of sadness on this thread.

Tell you what, *if*/when *YES wins, I'll stand YOU ALL a pint or three in Robbies bar on Leith Walk.* It'll be some party, either way. You should see the parties we have when Hibs lose Cup Finals, I'm kinda worried what would happen if we ever win one!
		
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I'll take you up on that:mmm:

As FD says we'll all have to respect the majority decision either way and most will have to work with the fallout. My pint from Adi will be to wish me bon voyage as I leave these beautiful shores and remember my country the way it is, complete with flaws, and not stay to see it sink into darkness.

cheers:cheers:


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 12, 2014)

CMAC said:



			I'll take you up on that:mmm:

As FD says we'll all have to respect the majority decision either way and most will have to work with the fallout. My pint from Adi will be to wish me bon voyage as I leave these beautiful shores and remember my country the way it is, complete with flaws, and not stay to see it sink into darkness.

cheers:cheers:
		
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Jeepers.... I don't think independence is the right path to take and, while it'd be rocky for a while, I'm pretty sure we'd make a success of it in the long run.


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## vkurup (Sep 12, 2014)

Whichever way the Scots votes... Alex Salmond will still have a job, the big question is.. Will you?


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## drdel (Sep 12, 2014)

Unfortunately IMO Mr Salmond is an odious character who actually says very little of substance _ I'd be worried if he ran my country.

The new citizens of an independent country might want to think about;;

Health insurance etc when they visit UK or elsewhere as they would not be in EU or the Schenken agreement
Whether their UK pensions can be paid to a foreign country
Will major companies really want to locate in a small economy with little or no guarantee of a home market or financial muscle
Oil revenue will drop as USA resources from fracking, etc are already pushing crude prices down (<$100) and the 'new' resources Scotland think exists are unsubstantiated pipedreams based on flawed boundaries of international waters and located in hugely difficult (and very expensive) fields.

The UN, World bank and the international world generally doesn't understand this myopic and silly, squabble and that will be very bad for all Scots being led to financial disaster by internally focussed Scots who want to vote 'Yes'. Please don't try an tell me that Mr Salmond is an international statesman when he seems far to busy with self interest.

It is a grave pity that such a serious debate has become debased (just like this thread) by  negativity based arguments; As an economist I think the Scots are being sold down the river by a rabble rousing political elite whose self glorification will be paid for by the citizens (heavily) of the new independent Scotland if they vote Yes.


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## Birchy (Sep 12, 2014)

If Salmond gets enough idiots to vote yes and Scotland crashes do we have to bail them out or do we get to vote on it??


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2014)

Birchy said:



			If Salmond gets enough idiots to vote yes and Scotland crashes do we have to bail them out or do we get to vote on it??
		
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At the moment you have 2,000,000 or so idiots in Scotland then


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## patricks148 (Sep 12, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			At the moment you have 2,000,000 or so idiots in Scotland then
		
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as opposed to one idiot in Bolton


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## Birchy (Sep 12, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			as opposed to one idiot in Bolton

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I don't live in Bolton :ears:

Well you have got Inverness covered at least.


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## Birchy (Sep 12, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			At the moment you have 2,000,000 or so idiots in Scotland then
		
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Good for them. Just don't come crawling back to the door when it goes belly up.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 12, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Good for them. Just don't come crawling back to the door when it goes belly up.
		
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We have a door???

Or is this the revolving door that Farage always goes on about? I thought that door was linking us to Europe. I don't believe we have two doors?!


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## Birchy (Sep 12, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			We have a door???

Or is this the revolving door that Farage always goes on about? I thought that door was linking us to Europe. I don't believe we have two doors?!
		
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I was getting at the doors of Westminster??? Im pretty sure they have a door.


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## patricks148 (Sep 12, 2014)

Birchy said:



			I don't live in Bolton :ears:
		
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either way you are still an idiot:rofl::rofl:


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## Birchy (Sep 12, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			either way you are still an idiot:rofl::rofl:
		
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That's rich coming from you Benny :rofl:


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 12, 2014)

Birchy said:



			I was getting at the doors of Westminster??? Im pretty sure they have a door.
		
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You're forgetting that the Scots would be too tight  (  )to crawl all that way, much easier to crawl to the nearest door in Carlisle!


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## patricks148 (Sep 12, 2014)

Birchy said:



			That's rich coming from you Benny :rofl:
		
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yes alright Mr Male model, anyway Benny Hill was a very clever man:ears:Unlike you:rofl:


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## Birchy (Sep 12, 2014)

patricks148 said:



*yes alright Mr Male model*, anyway Benny Hill was a very clever man:ears:Unlike you:rofl:
		
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I didn't realise we had met :rofl:


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## Dodger (Sep 12, 2014)

Adi2Dassler said:



			*you're



*Dalglish


carry on
		
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Class!!:rofl:


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## User62651 (Sep 12, 2014)

drdel said:



			Unfortunately IMO Mr Salmond is an odious character who actually says very little of substance _ I'd be worried if he ran my country.

The new citizens of an independent country might want to think about;;

Health insurance etc when they visit UK or elsewhere as they would not be in EU or the Schenken agreement
Whether their UK pensions can be paid to a foreign country
Will major companies really want to locate in a small economy with little or no guarantee of a home market or financial muscle
Oil revenue will drop as USA resources from fracking, etc are already pushing crude prices down (<$100) and the 'new' resources Scotland think exists are unsubstantiated pipedreams based on flawed boundaries of international waters and located in hugely difficult (and very expensive) fields.

The UN, World bank and the international world generally doesn't understand this myopic and silly, squabble and that will be very bad for all Scots being led to financial disaster by internally focussed Scots who want to vote 'Yes'. Please don't try an tell me that Mr Salmond is an international statesman when he seems far to busy with self interest.

It is a grave pity that such a serious debate has become debased (just like this thread) by  negativity based arguments; As an economist I think the Scots are being sold down the river by a rabble rousing political elite whose self glorification will be paid for by the citizens (heavily) of the new independent Scotland if they vote Yes.
		
Click to expand...

I think much of the above is well reasoned but why use terms such as 'odious character' 'internally focussed Scots' and 'myopic and silly squabble'?  -Those comments can read as debasing any reasoned debate too. If you live up here it is neither myopic or silly, it's deadly serious. 

Internally focussed Scots? - perhaps its other parts of the UK that is more xenophobic with strong leanings to UKIP and the right and which is more inward looking? The upper class establishment that still runs the UK through school and Oxbridge connection, double barrelled names, inherited title/peerage and inherited wealth (rather than earned) are more inward looking than anyone and perhaps we'd like to break away from that kind of thing where everyone is born if not equal then far less inequal?

I'm not a raving Yes campaigner I am still honestly undecided but am resorting to social media and foreign news for honest unbiased opinion from all sides on the matter as every UK based paper and the BBC seems really biased to the NO side. Example -currency unions have occurred many times across the world and can work fine either long term like the Euro or for a transitionary period - Canada, Australia, Ireland etc but the way the media jump on and focus on what is clearly a scaremongering tactic from Westminster you'd think it had never been done before. Carney has contingencies in place, things can be worked out. If Scotland is such a drain on and propped up by England as it seems much of England believes why are all Westminster parties trying so hard, through clearly biased coverage, to keep her in the Union?  It seems clear (from this forum at least) that its not because you like us as people or value us as neighbours, could it perhaps because it could be the last nail in the coffin of Empire?


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 12, 2014)

maxfli65 said:



			Example -currency unions have occurred many times across the world and can work fine either long term like the Euro or for a transitionary period - Canada, Australia, Ireland etc
		
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Not sure Ireland, Greece, Spain, Portugal etc. have had a great time with the euro....


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## vkurup (Sep 12, 2014)

The sad bit is that everyone is thinking about how it will affect them... In reality the effects of this will be felt long after we have all putted out and its our grandkids picking up the pieces.  Salmond may become the first king of scotland, but it will be at the cost of the future of the young ones.  

Having said that, I think Joe Public is generally lot smarter than what the politicians make them to be.. so I am hoping that better sense will prevail. 

More importantly, those who are indifferent to the whole thing should get out of bed and vote. As i said, dont vote for yourself, but for your grandkids. If you dont vote and the Yes guys win by 1 vote, who will you blame???


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## User62651 (Sep 12, 2014)

vkurup said:



			Salmond may become the first king of scotland, but *it will be* at the cost of the future of the young ones.
		
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 Should you not rephrase 'it will be' as 'will it be?' unless you can see into the future? 
Not voting for/agin Salmond, voting yes/no for independence, why cant people understand the difference? Any yes vote will require elections for leadership. We have a Monarch Queen Elizabeth (note not Elizabeth II) here already who is half Scottish and half mostly German who is head of state of many countries not part of the UK. Desire for independence and desire for republicanism is not necessarily connected.


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## vkurup (Sep 12, 2014)

maxfli65 said:



			Should you not rephrase 'it will be' as '*will it be*?' unless you can see into the future? 
Not voting for/agin Salmond, voting yes/no for independence, why cant people understand the difference? Any yes vote will require elections for leadership. We have a Monarch Queen Elizabeth (note not Elizabeth II) here already who is half Scottish and half mostly German who is head of state of many countries not part of the UK.* Desire for independence and desire for republicanism is not necessarily connected*.
		
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Agree max.. it should have been 'will it be'... I think that is an answer that the Scots will have to decide..

Re the republican issue.. I am not least worried about it.  My reference to Salmond as 'first king of scotland' was phrasing an emotion rather than the monarchy issue.  You can be pretty sure that Salmond will appease the monarchy, the pound and any other thing that he can get away with.  

I would defer it back to the BoE Governor Mark Carney's words last week.. saying that that a monetary union is not compatible.   Yet to get an answer from Salmond... If you cant keep the Pound and wont get the Euro... what is the currency going to be?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 12, 2014)

vkurup said:



			Agree max.. it should have been 'will it be'... I think that is an answer that the Scots will have to decide..

Re the republican issue.. I am not least worried about it.  My reference to Salmond as 'first king of scotland' was phrasing an emotion rather than the monarchy issue.  You can be pretty sure that Salmond will appease the monarchy, the pound and any other thing that he can get away with.  

I would defer it back to the BoE Governor Mark Carney's words last week.. saying that that a monetary union is not compatible.   Yet to get an answer from Salmond... If you cant keep the Pound and wont get the Euro... what is the currency going to be?
		
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Have you actually listened carefully to what Carney (carefully) said about CU or have you just gone on the BT/Union spin on what he said?  He said (I paraphrase so to be corrected) that CU was not compatible with sovereignty if Westminster did not agree to it.


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## vkurup (Sep 12, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Have you actually listened carefully to what Carney (carefully) said about CU or have you just gone on the BT/Union spin on what he said?  H*e said (I paraphrase so to be corrected) that CU was not compatible with sovereignty if Westminster did not agree to it*.
		
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I admit I only heard the BBC version where he said it was not compatible if Westminister did not agree..  Considering that none of the Westminister bods are _currently_ agreeing to it, that would leave little room for CU - irrespective of if Salmond wants to it or not..


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## SocketRocket (Sep 12, 2014)

I do find Salmond's stance regarding using the Pound in an Independent Scotland a bit confusing.    The Stock comment is that "It's Scotland's Pound"  Surely thats only the case when they are in 'The Club'  i.e. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Once Scotland divorces it's self from the Union then the Pound can no longer be theirs!


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## vkurup (Sep 13, 2014)

Here is a funny take by the Yanks..

http://www.comedycentral.co.uk/the-daily-show/videos/say-goodbye-to-scotland

Scotland got oil... so be wary about an American invasion.. funny...


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 13, 2014)

vkurup said:



			Here is a funny take by the Yanks..

http://www.comedycentral.co.uk/the-daily-show/videos/say-goodbye-to-scotland

Scotland got oil... so be wary about an American invasion.. funny...
		
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Brilliant.:lol:


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## vkurup (Sep 13, 2014)

Everyone will relocate to England...  First the banks now even Nessie

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Loch-Ness-Monster-relocated-south-border.html


Thank God for the Daily Mail..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 13, 2014)

We get 700,000 migrants from Scotland if YES - if you believe a poll of a few weeks ago - where we gonna stick them?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 13, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We get 700,000 migrants from Scotland if YES - if you believe a poll of a few weeks ago - where we gonna stick them?
		
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Dartmoor.


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## Foxholer (Sep 14, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I do find Salmond's stance regarding using the Pound in an Independent Scotland a bit confusing.    The Stock comment is that "It's Scotland's Pound"  Surely thats only the case when they are in 'The Club'  i.e. The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Once Scotland divorces it's self from the Union then the Pound can no longer be theirs!
		
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Obviously posted by a man that's never been divorced!


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## Hobbit (Sep 14, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Obviously posted by a man that's never been divorced! 

Click to expand...

Quite true Foxy. But would you then act as guarantor for loans etc. Splitting the family silverware is one thing but still having a joint account is...


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 14, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We get 700,000 migrants from Scotland if YES - if you believe a poll of a few weeks ago - where we gonna stick them?
		
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Clapham


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 14, 2014)

Interesting micro fact.

Three houses in our village went up for sale last month, all sold quickly [obviously getting asking price and above].
Two sold to English families.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 14, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Interesting micro fact.

Three houses in our village went up for sale last month, all sold quickly [obviously getting asking price and above].
Two sold to English families.
		
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Not sure the relevance or where the interesting part is ?


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## Foxholer (Sep 14, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			Quite true Foxy. But would you then act as guarantor for loans etc. Splitting the family silverware is one thing but still having a joint account is...
		
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Good point. Though I've seen something quite close done.

And certainly 'parental' bank of last resort concept exists, along with other 'family' analogies.

There are even cases where 'justice' is sought after one party has lied about value of assets!


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## CMAC (Sep 14, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not sure the relevance or where the interesting part is ?
		
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Don't worry LP, neither does Doon!


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 14, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not sure the relevance or where the interesting part is ?
		
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I thought the sky was going to fall in and we were all going to die if we voted Yes.

Our village is an obviously attractive place to live for some English peoples.

70,000 Scots move out, 70,000 English buy their houses.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 14, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I thought the sky was going to fall in and we were all going to die if we voted Yes.

Our village is an obviously attractive place to live for some English peoples.

70,000 Scots move out, 70,000 English buy their houses.
		
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So two people buy a house in your village and you come to that conclusion ? 

Again I still see don't see the relevance or the interesting part

It's meaningless


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## williamalex1 (Sep 14, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Interesting micro fact.

Three houses in our village went up for sale last month, all sold quickly [obviously getting asking price and above].
Two sold to English families.
		
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Will they vote yes ???


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 14, 2014)

williamalex1 said:



			Will they vote yes ???
		
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Probably, I think most of the English and Welsh living in Scotland do. Well at least the ones I know, why do you think they moved here in the first place:lol:.


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## CMAC (Sep 14, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Probably, I think most of the English and Welsh living in Scotland do. Well at least the ones I know, why do you think they moved here in the first place:lol:.
		
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no idea, and I'll wager you don't know either........or care. 

As for your (continuing) sweeping statements...............


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## Crow (Sep 14, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Probably, I think most of the English and Welsh living in Scotland do. Well at least the ones I know, why do you think they moved here in the first place:lol:.
		
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Totally off topic here, but I've just realised that your forum name is Doon frae *Troon*.

For as long as I've been reading it I've always read it as Doon frae *Toon*, as in "down from town".

I did warn that it was totally off topic, but a post to alleviate the heated debate nonetheless.


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## Hobbit (Sep 14, 2014)

Crow said:



			Totally off topic here, but I've just realised that your forum name is Doon frae *Troon*.

For as long as I've been reading it I've always read it as Doon frae *Toon*, as in "down from town".

I did warn that it was totally off topic, but a post to alleviate the heated debate nonetheless.
		
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Well bu993r me sideways on the raggy end of a pineapple. I've always read it that way too.


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## Imurg (Sep 14, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			Well bu993r me sideways on the raggy end of a pineapple. I've always read it that way too.
		
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I reckon he's just changed it......


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## williamalex1 (Sep 14, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			Well bu993r me sideways on the raggy end of a pineapple. I've always read it that way too.
		
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Should have gone to Specsavers in Troon perhaps


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## Slime (Sep 14, 2014)

I couldn't give a stuff!
What will happen, will happen.
I have very limited interest in it because I don't get a say.


*Slime*.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 14, 2014)

Slime said:



			I couldn't give a stuff!
What will happen, will happen.
I have very limited interest in it because I don't get a say.


*Slime*.
		
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Not giving a stuff plays into the hands of the YES campaign as it signifies that the English don't care about Scotland - and that is one factor as to why we are where we are today.  Too many English just don't give a stuff.


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## Slime (Sep 15, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not giving a stuff plays into the hands of the YES campaign as it signifies that the English don't care about Scotland - and that is one factor as to why we are where we are today.  Too many English just don't give a stuff.
		
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What is the point of me caring about a vote I can't be part of?
It's not that I don't give a stuff about Scotland, I just don't give a stuff about Thursday's vote.
Things would be different if ALL UK residents got a vote as to whether Scotland, (or anyone else), could or should leave the Union.


*Slime*.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 15, 2014)

Milliband and Cameron coming up to Scotland AGAIN to love bomb us and tell us all the unanswered questions [according to my Mrs].

Is it not a shame that they could not have done this at the start of the campaign, or even before thousands have already voted.

Totally disrespectful, shame on them.


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 15, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Milliband and Cameron coming up to Scotland AGAIN to love bomb us and tell us all the unanswered questions [according to my Mrs].

Is it not a shame that they could not have done this at the start of the campaign, or even before thousands have already voted.

Totally disrespectful, shame on them.
		
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Shame on them? For campaigning in the run up to the vote? Just like the yes side will be doing?

Give it a rest, please!


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## Imurg (Sep 15, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not giving a stuff plays into the hands of the YES campaign as it signifies that the English don't care about Scotland - and that is one factor as to why we are where we are today.  Too many English just don't give a stuff.
		
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And this seems to be the heart of the Yes campaign...England doesn't give a stuff, let's go Independent...
That's a well reasoned and thought out argument for breaking the Union - forget about whether it will work financially, socially or economically....

Quite frankly, I'm fed up with it.
I don't really care which way Scotland votes - you can't say "the Scots" because a large number of those voting simply aren't - I don't think it's likely to affect me one way or the other - much like a By-election in Bolton - I just want it over and done with.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 15, 2014)

Following a Yes win, who do you think will be the new Tory leader after Cameron resigns?


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 15, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Following a Yes win, who do you think will be the new Tory leader after Cameron resigns?
		
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Come on Doon, at least people settle into work on a gloomy Monday morning before you start all of the wind up.


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## Dodger (Sep 15, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Come on Doon, at least people settle into work on a gloomy Monday morning before you start all of the wind up.
		
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Valid question.IF it happens he's done and there is hardly a shining light at the front of the que is there?


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## Hobbit (Sep 15, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Milliband and Cameron coming up to Scotland AGAIN to love bomb us and tell us all the unanswered questions [according to my Mrs].

Is it not a shame that they could not have done this at the start of the campaign, or even before thousands have already voted.

Totally disrespectful, shame on them.
		
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FairwayDodger said:



			Shame on them? For campaigning in the run up to the vote? Just like the yes side will be doing?

Give it a rest, please!
		
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Doon frae Troon said:



			Following a Yes win, who do you think will be the new Tory leader after Cameron resigns?
		
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Doon, switch to decaf before you froth over completely.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 15, 2014)

Dodger said:



			Valid question.IF it happens he's done and there is hardly a shining light at the front of the que is there?
		
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Why must he be done?

You have already said that Scotland didn't vote for him, so therefore the Conservatives must be in a good position to be re-elected, why would they get rid of their leader, who has actually done quite a good job to date. 

You can't get rid of him if 50.1% of Scots were gullible enough to fall for Salmonds nonsense.

And Doon, shouldn't you be concerned with Scotland, rather than what may or may not happen in the next couple of years in the UK, after you've left us??


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## CMAC (Sep 15, 2014)

DFT and Dodgers posts just brighten up my day.

Whenever I think the YES campaign might be starting to make a point I come on here and see the real level of (mis)understanding and assumptive attacks regurgitated daily.


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## Coatsy79 (Sep 15, 2014)

I honestly hope it is a yes because, much like the referendums on independence in Quebec, it just keeps rolling on and on and on, until they get the Yes anyway and that will waste millions 

Odd to think that if it's 51% Yes, 49% No Salmond will wave his arms in triumph, but if it were the other way around he would argue nearly half the country wants to be independent and it will roll on and on


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 15, 2014)

Coatsy79 said:



			I honestly hope it is a yes because, much like the referendums on independence in Quebec, it just keeps rolling on and on and on, until they get the Yes anyway and that will waste millions 

Odd to think that if it's 51% Yes, 49% No Salmond will wave his arms in triumph, but if it were the other way around he would argue nearly half the country wants to be independent and it will roll on and on
		
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Aye - the (Canadian) Neverendum - incorrectly mentioned by a BBC R5L reporter lass as relating to the current referendum going on and on   But hey - she must have thought it sounded good taken out of it's original context as something someone might have said about the current debate


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## 19thagain (Sep 15, 2014)

Imurg said:



			...........
Quite frankly, I'm fed up with it.
I don't really care which way Scotland votes - you can't say "the Scots" because a large number of those voting simply aren't - I don't think it's likely to affect me one way or the ..............
		
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I would agree with your observation.... a large percentage of voters are English and we will have to factor this into our need to squeeze every last voter away from the telly and into the voting booth.

The passion is rising, the brickies are on stand by to rebuild Hadrians wall, starting Saturday morning, double time is worth it to keep the English from flowing North.

Englandshire will relax over their English breakfasts on Sunday morning, watching the Andrew Marr show explaining what a super strategic plan your Davie boy followed by pretending he wanted Scotland to stay in the Union when they are just a financial drain.

Better rid, he will say. 

We of course will all be in Romania with our begging bowls seeking sympathy and financial support as our sugar daddies have left us to starve.

Dream On!


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## Dodger (Sep 15, 2014)

19thagain said:



			I would agree with your observation.... a large percentage of voters are English and we will have to factor this into our need to squeeze every last voter away from the telly and into the voting booth.

The passion is rising, the brickies are on stand by to rebuild Hadrians wall, starting Saturday morning, double time is worth it to keep the English from flowing North.

*Englandshire* will relax over their English breakfasts on Sunday morning, watching the Andrew Marr show explaining what a super strategic plan your Davie boy followed by pretending he wanted Scotland to stay in the Union when they are just a financial drain.

Better rid, he will say. 

We of course will all be in Romania with our begging bowls seeking sympathy and financial support as our sugar daddies have left us to starve.

Dream On!
		
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Careful....somebody will be reaching for the kleenex if he reads that.


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 15, 2014)

Dodger said:



			Careful....somebody will be reaching for the kleenex if he reads that.
		
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Why is that ? Was just asking where the place was Dodger as can't find it on a map and surely I wouldn't expect someone from the Yes campaign to resort to childish nicknames because they wouldn't do that would they.


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 15, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why is that ? Was just asking where the place was Dodger as can't find it on a map and surely I wouldn't expect someone from the Yes campaign to resort to childish nicknames because they wouldn't do that would they.
		
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Phil, you need to pick your battles better. Englandshire is an affectionate nickname for England that many of us use. Including myself on at least one of these threads.

I'm also rather fond of using Walesland. :thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 15, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Phil, you need to pick your battles better. Englandshire is an affectionate nickname for England that many of us use. Including myself on at least one of these threads.

I'm also rather fond of using Walesland. :thup:
		
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I have never honestly heard of it - I thought there was a very grey area in regards affectionate names for each country etc .


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## HDID Kenny (Sep 15, 2014)

Read most of this said nothing so far, I've been a no for a long time then a few months back I swung towards yes TBH I am now undecided swaying towards no, anyway a question for my fellow Scots in the yes camp.
If the vote was for the English to vote on England becoming independent from Scotland would you be saying good riddance or would you be bricking the thought of being abandoned without having any control over the outcome?? Honesty please.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 15, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Phil, you need to pick your battles better. Englandshire is an affectionate nickname for England that many of us use. Including myself on at least one of these threads.

I'm also rather fond of using Walesland. :thup:
		
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Maybe if theres a No vote then as a way of strengthening the Union we could create a single country from England and Scotland and name it by taking the first three letters from England and the last four from Scotland.

Only Joking.  Honest!


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 15, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Maybe if theres a No vote as a way of strengthening the Union we could create a single country from England and Scotland and name it by taking the first three letters from England and the last four from Scotland.

Only Joking.  Honest! 

Click to expand...

Lol, :thup:


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## delc (Sep 15, 2014)

The vast majority of the presently constituted UK population live in England, yet we have no English Regional Government or Assembly. Scottish MP's can vote on matters that affect the English, but have no effect on their voters, such as increased prescription charges in England, and Tuition Fees and Student Loans for English Universities. The so called West Lothian Question!  

The last Labour Government, headed by Tony Blair (Scottish name, educated in Scotland, probable Scottish connections), Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling and others (definitely Scottish) allowed over 4 million immigrants to flood into the UK, mostly to England, in the hope that they would vote for and keep Labour in power for ever. Didn't work!  Now our roads, schools, hospitals and other public services are totally overwhelmed by sheer numbers.  I happened to be driving through a suburb of North-West London this afternoon, at School chucking out time. Hardly any of the kids looked exactly native British, but plenty of Indians, Africans, West Indians, East Europeans and East Asians. If I go shopping in my local town, it's getting rare to actually hear English spoken! I have nothing against these people, but should they really be living in our country?
:mmm:


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 15, 2014)

delc said:



			The vast majority of the presently constituted UK population live in England, yet we have no English Regional Government or Assembly. Scottish MP's can vote on matters that affect the English, but have no effect on their voters, such as increased prescription charges in England, and Tuition Fees and Student Loans for English Universities. The so called West Lothian Question!  

The last Labour Government, headed by Tony Blair (Scottish name, educated in Scotland, probable Scottish connections), Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling and others (definitely Scottish) allowed over 4 million immigrants to flood into the UK, mostly to England, in the hope that they would vote for and keep Labour in power for ever. Didn't work!  Now our roads, schools, hospitals and other public services are totally overwhelmed by sheer numbers.  I happened to be driving through a suburb of North-West London this afternoon, at School chucking out time. Hardly any of the kids looked exactly native British, but plenty of Indians, Africans, West Indians, East Europeans and East Asians. If I go shopping in my local town, it's getting rare to actually hear English spoken! I have nothing against these people, but should they really be living in our country?
:mmm:
		
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What exactly does a native British person look like ? 

How about the shocking thought for you that a lot of those people coming out of the schools are British by birth ?


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 15, 2014)

delc said:



			The vast majority of the presently constituted UK population live in England, yet we have no English Regional Government or Assembly. Scottish MP's can vote on matters that affect the English, but have no effect on their voters, such as increased prescription charges in England, and Tuition Fees and Student Loans for English Universities. The so called West Lothian Question!  

The last Labour Government, headed by Tony Blair (Scottish name, educated in Scotland, probable Scottish connections), Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling and others (definitely Scottish) allowed over 4 million immigrants to flood into the UK, mostly to England, in the hope that they would vote for and keep Labour in power for ever. Didn't work!  Now our roads, schools, hospitals and other public services are totally overwhelmed by sheer numbers.  I happened to be driving through a suburb of North-West London this afternoon, at School chucking out time. Hardly any of the kids looked exactly native British, but plenty of Indians, Africans, West Indians, East Europeans and East Asians. If I go shopping in my local town, it's getting rare to actually hear English spoken! I have nothing against these people, but should they really be living in our country?
:mmm:
		
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Dont want to be going off topic please

Lets just keep it to the Scottish debate

Thanks


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## delc (Sep 15, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Dont want to be going off topic please

Lets just keep it to the Scottish debate

Thanks
		
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One of the advantages of Scottish Independence would be that we would no longer have Scottish MP's meddling in the affairs of the rest of the UK, as the Scottish contingent of the last New Labour Government definitely did!


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## williamalex1 (Sep 15, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			Phil, you need to pick your battles better. Englandshire is an affectionate nickname for England that many of us use. Including myself on at least one of these threads.

I'm also rather fond of using Walesland. :thup:
		
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Do you mean Walliesland.


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## User62651 (Sep 15, 2014)

delc said:



			The vast majority of the presently constituted UK population live in England, yet we have no English Regional Government or Assembly. Scottish MP's can vote on matters that affect the English, but have no effect on their voters, such as increased prescription charges in England, and Tuition Fees and Student Loans for English Universities. The so called West Lothian Question!  

The last Labour Government, headed by Tony Blair (Scottish name, educated in Scotland, probable Scottish connections), Gordon Brown, Alistair Darling and others (definitely Scottish) allowed over 4 million immigrants to flood into the UK, mostly to England, in the hope that they would vote for and keep Labour in power for ever. Didn't work!  Now our roads, schools, hospitals and other public services are totally overwhelmed by sheer numbers.  I happened to be driving through a suburb of North-West London this afternoon, at School chucking out time. Hardly any of the kids looked exactly native British, but plenty of Indians, Africans, West Indians, East Europeans and East Asians. If I go shopping in my local town, it's getting rare to actually hear English spoken! I have nothing against these people, but should they really be living in our country?
:mmm:
		
Click to expand...

Very fair post, summarises why Labour were defeated so badly at Holyrood election in 2011 leading us where we are now. Salmond played him like a fiddle. If I was English I'd feel like you.  Now Brown is parading about up here like he's the messiah here to save us all - mans a self-serving prize plonker and utter hypocrite - him and Blair had 13 years to make a difference but failed but now all of a sudden he can make the difference. Treading all over Darling now like he tried to do for 11 years with Blair.


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## delc (Sep 15, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What exactly does a native British person look like ?
		
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How about fair skinned with blonde, brown, black or red hair?


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## williamalex1 (Sep 15, 2014)

delc said:



			How about fair skinned with blonde, brown, black or red hair?
		
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Any phone numbers ?? haha


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## delc (Sep 15, 2014)

maxfli65 said:



			Very fair post, summarises why Labour were defeated so badly at Holyrood election in 2011 leading us where we are now. Salmond played him like a fiddle. If I was English I'd feel like you.  Now Brown is parading about up here like he's the messiah here to save us all - mans a self-serving prize plonker and utter hypocrite - him and Blair had 13 years to make a difference but failed but now all of a sudden he can make the difference. Treading all over Darling now like he tried to do for 11 years with Blair.
		
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So Jeremy Clarkson's description of Gordon Brown as being a "One-eyed, Scottish idiot" was about right then!


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## Foxholer (Sep 15, 2014)

delc said:



			So Jeremy Clarkson's description of Gordon Brown as being a "One-eyed, Scottish idiot" was about right then!  

Click to expand...

That was definitely a case of Pot and Kettle! Though Clarkson had to add 3 additional descriptive words to his rant. Simply stating (Jeremy) Clarkson is sufficient in his case!


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## NWJocko (Sep 15, 2014)

delc said:



			How about fair skinned with blonde, brown, black or red hair?
		
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Nothing like a bit of casual racism on a Monday evening eh!?

Wtf, have you left your house since the 1940's!?


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 15, 2014)

delc said:



			How about fair skinned with blonde, brown, black or red hair?
		
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Utterly speechless.


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## delc (Sep 15, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			That was definitely a case of Pot and Kettle! Though Clarkson had to add 3 additional descriptive words to his rant. Simply stating (Jeremy) Clarkson is sufficient in his case! 

Click to expand...

New Labour's legacy:

1) Got us involved in two unnecessary and very expensive wars (Iraq and Afghanistan), which solved nothing and actually made matters worse.

2) Built up the biggest National debt in the UK's peacetime history.

3) Gordon Brown flogged off most of our gold reserves at a rock bottom price.

4) Society became more unequal than ever (bankers vs the rest).

5) Presided over the biggest financial crash ever.

6) UK flooded with immigrants.

If Scotland want a Socialist Government, they are very welcome to it!


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## chrisd (Sep 15, 2014)

maxfli65 said:



			- him and Blair had 13 years to make a difference but failed but now all of a sudden he can make the difference. .
		
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Him and Blair did make a difference  - Blair took us into a disasterous war and Brown wrecked the countries economy, how much "more difference " would we want these two idiots to make?


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## delc (Sep 15, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Utterly speechless.
		
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I believe that most of them speak perfectly good English (or Gaelic, or Welsh)!


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 15, 2014)

delc said:



			New Labour's legacy:

1) Got us involved in two unnecessary and very expensive wars (Iraq and Afghanistan), which solved nothing and actually made matters worse.

2) Built up the biggest National debt in the UK's peacetime history.

3) Gordon Brown flogged off most of our gold reserves at a rock bottom price.

4) Society became more unequal than ever (bankers vs the rest).

5) Presided over the biggest financial crash ever.

6) UK flooded with immigrants.

If Scotland want a Socialist Government, they are very welcome to it! 

Click to expand...

The conflicts in both Iraq and Afghan have solved a lot of things and have given a lot of people a better future

Schools created , hospitals built , dictators removed , drug production reduced , houses and homes built , jobs created , democracy enabled , trade and industry started. 

There will always be arguments about the rights and wrongs for going to both Iraq and Afghan but both countries are a damn sight better for the work our wonderful forces have done over there

Each government will have it's legacies - Labour have no doubt ruined theirs for a while in Scotland but there is in doubt a chance that if they become Independant in Scotland Labour could form the government 

But let's not forget the problems this country ( UK ) has been in because of the Tories


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## Liverpoolphil (Sep 15, 2014)

delc said:



			I believe that most of them speak perfectly good English (or Gaelic)!
		
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Speechless about your casual racism.


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## delc (Sep 15, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The conflicts in both Iraq and Afghan have solved a lot of things and have given a lot of people a better future

Schools created , hospitals built , dictators removed , drug production reduced , houses and homes built , jobs created , democracy enabled , trade and industry started. 

There will always be arguments about the rights and wrongs for going to both Iraq and Afghan but both countries are a damn sight better for the work our wonderful forces have done over there

Each government will have it's legacies - Labour have no doubt ruined theirs for a while in Scotland but there is in doubt a chance that if they become Independant in Scotland Labour could form the government 

But let's not forget the problems this country ( UK ) has been in because of the Tories
		
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Islamic State and the Taliban?  I think the Tory/Lib Dem Coalition are only trying to sort out the problems left by the last Labour Government!


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## Foxholer (Sep 15, 2014)

delc said:





Foxholer said:



			That was definitely a case of Pot and Kettle! Though Clarkson had to add 3 additional descriptive words to his rant. Simply stating (Jeremy) Clarkson is sufficient in his case! 

Click to expand...

New Labour's legacy:

1) Got us involved in two unnecessary and very expensive wars (Iraq and Afghanistan), which solved nothing and actually made matters worse.

2) Built up the biggest National debt in the UK's peacetime history.

3) Gordon Brown flogged off most of our gold reserves at a rock bottom price.

4) Society became more unequal than ever (bankers vs the rest).

5) Presided over the biggest financial crash ever.

6) UK flooded with immigrants.

If Scotland want a Socialist Government, they are very welcome to it! 

Click to expand...

Why in tarnation did you quote my post in this gratuitous off-topic rant?!


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 15, 2014)

Gents, back on topic please or the thread will be closed for the night

Last warning


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 15, 2014)

I think I heard on the BBC news this evening that Cameron is giving, an interview to the beeb tomorrow on how Scottish independence would affect rest ,of uk


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## williamalex1 (Sep 16, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think I heard on the BBC news this evening that Cameron is giving, an interview to the beeb tomorrow on how Scottish independence would affect rest ,of uk
		
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You may want edit to --affect the rest o fuk.oo:


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## Foxholer (Sep 16, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think I heard on the BBC news this evening that Cameron is giving, an interview to the beeb tomorrow on how Scottish independence would affect rest ,of uk
		
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To be repeated Friday?


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## delc (Sep 16, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			Nothing like a bit of casual racism on a Monday evening eh!?

Wtf, have you left your house since the 1940's!?
		
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Not being racist. Just pointing out what an indigenous native British person would have looked like up until the late 1940's. OK we invited in some Caribbean folk in the 1950's and Ugandan Asians in the 1970's and they are now several generations down the line Brits, but nothing like the numbers that New Labour allowed in during their last term of office, despite the spin that they were controlling immigration. Anybody who complained about this influx of immigrants was labelled a racist bigot by the PC brigade!  :mmm:


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## delc (Sep 16, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think I heard on the BBC news this evening that Cameron is giving, an interview to the beeb tomorrow on how Scottish independence would affect rest ,of uk
		
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Isn't Cameron a Scottish name?  Conspiracy theory!  :mmm:


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## User62651 (Sep 16, 2014)

delc said:



			Isn't Cameron a Scottish name?  Conspiracy theory!  :mmm:
		
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It is indeed - he has Scottish aristocratic heritage going back a good few generations, distant cousin of HM The Queen too.


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## Slime (Sep 16, 2014)

delc said:



			Not being racist. Just pointing out what an indigenous native British person would have looked like up until the late 1940's. OK we invited in some Caribbean folk in the 1950's and Ugandan Asians in the 1970's and they are now several generations down the line Brits, but nothing like the numbers that New Labour allowed in during their last term of office, despite the spin that they were controlling immigration. *Anybody who complained about this influx of immigrants was labelled a racist bigot by the PC brigade!*  :mmm:
		
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I know ................... I was/am one of those!


*Slime*.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 16, 2014)

Slime said:



			I know ................... I was/am one of those!


*Slime*.
		
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A bigot or an immigrant?


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## delc (Sep 16, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			A bigot or an immigrant?
		
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Could also be a complainant or a member of the PC brigade!


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## woody69 (Sep 16, 2014)

delc said:



			Not being racist. Just pointing out what an indigenous native British person would have looked like up until the late 1940's. OK we invited in some Caribbean folk in the 1950's and Ugandan Asians in the 1970's and they are now several generations down the line Brits, but nothing like the numbers that New Labour allowed in during their last term of office, despite the spin that they were controlling immigration. Anybody who complained about this influx of immigrants was labelled a racist bigot by the PC brigade!  :mmm:
		
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Polish, Romanian, Ukranian, Russian etc all look similar to an "indigenous native British person" (whatever that is). Are they included in your opinion of immigrants overrunning the country?


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## delc (Sep 16, 2014)

woody69 said:



			Polish, Romanian, Ukranian, Russian etc all look similar to an "indigenous native British person" (whatever that is). Are they included in your opinion of immigrants overrunning the country?
		
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Yes!


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## woody69 (Sep 16, 2014)

delc said:



			Yes!  

Click to expand...

I'm not really sure what this has to do with the debate on how Scottish independence affects the rest of the union? Are you concerned that if the Scots vote yes, large swathes of them will cross the highlands and descend upon England looking for jobs putting additional strain on our creaking infrastructure thanks to all those other damn immigrants that "took ar jobs"?


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## Foxholer (Sep 16, 2014)

delc said:



*Not being racist.* Just pointing out what an indigenous native British person would have looked like up until the late 1940's. OK we invited in some Caribbean folk in the 1950's and Ugandan Asians in the 1970's and they are now several generations down the line Brits, but nothing like the numbers that New Labour allowed in during their last term of office, despite the spin that they were controlling immigration. Anybody who complained about this influx of immigrants was labelled a racist bigot by the PC brigade!  :mmm:
		
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Yeah right! Just xenophobic, right wing, dogmatic clap-trap and yes, racist imo!

And absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic!

As an aside, you should check the immigration stats to see how the current lot are performing!


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## delc (Sep 16, 2014)

woody69 said:



			I'm not really sure what this has to do with the debate on how Scottish independence affects the rest of the union? Are you concerned that if the Scots vote yes, large swathes of them will cross the highlands and descend upon England looking for jobs putting additional strain on our creaking infrastructure thanks to all those other damn immigrants that "took ar jobs"?
		
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It's quite possible that loads of Scots will want to move south of Hadrian's Wall, once Mr Salmond's Socialist policies start to bite. The majority of immigrants seem to go to London and the South-East of England. If you go into many shops and pubs down here, there is a fair chance that you will be served by somebody with an East European accent. Our roads are totally clogged up in the rush hours, and there is an acute shortage of housing, with prices getting ever higher due to demand outstripping supply. Many open spaces, including golf courses, are under threat of being developed into new housing estates.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 16, 2014)

delc said:



			It's quite possible that loads of Scots will want to move south of Hadrian's Wall, once Mr Salmond's Socialist policies start to bite. The majority of immigrants seem to go to London and the South-East of England. If you go into many shops and pubs down here, there is a fair chance that you will be served by somebody with an East European accent. Our roads are totally clogged up in the rush hours, and there is an acute shortage of housing, with prices getting ever higher due to demand outstripping supply. Many open spaces, including golf courses, are under threat of being developed into new housing estates.
		
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I think it's time you went and played golf del. This thread is about Scottish Independence. If you want a thread to start a diatribe on immigration, go do it elsewhere!


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## Slime (Sep 16, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			A bigot or an immigrant?
		
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I'm neither. I'm one of the accused .


*Slime*.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 16, 2014)

So I've just started watching Gordon Brown on BBC, and I had an interesting thought. 

IF Scotland says NO, which I can only help they will do, and it results in a change to the way Scotland is run, does anyone think it would be a perfect time to reassess the whole governmental system?

a) Set up an English assembly, giving the same powers to that as the Scottish one. Could have this set up in Manchester or somewhere, to bring politics outside the South East
b) significantly reduce the number of MPs in the UK Parliament
c) Review the way the House of Lords is populated.

Would be an amazing change, and really bring it into the 21st century.

Any thoughts?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 16, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			So I've just started watching Gordon Brown on BBC, and I had an interesting thought. 

IF Scotland says NO, which I can only help they will do, and it results in a change to the way Scotland is run, does anyone think it would be a perfect time to reassess the whole governmental system?

a) Set up an English assembly, giving the same powers to that as the Scottish one. Could have this set up in Manchester or somewhere, to bring politics outside the South East
b) significantly reduce the number of MPs in the UK Parliament
c) Review the way the House of Lords is populated.

Would be an amazing change, and really bring it into the 21st century.

Any thoughts?
		
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Yes, I would agree broadly with those points.   England will deserve their own assembly that has similar devolved powers.


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## User62651 (Sep 17, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			So I've just started watching Gordon Brown on BBC, and I had an interesting thought. 

IF Scotland says NO, which I can only help they will do, and it results in a change to the way Scotland is run, does anyone think it would be a perfect time to reassess the whole governmental system?

a) Set up an English assembly, giving the same powers to that as the Scottish one. Could have this set up in Manchester or somewhere, to bring politics outside the South East
b) significantly reduce the number of MPs in the UK Parliament
c) Review the way the House of Lords is populated.

Would be an amazing change, and really bring it into the 21st century.

Any thoughts?
		
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Agree wholeheartedly, but cant see it happening - politicians on the whole are in it for themselves and an awful lot of MP's like the London lifestyle, traditions and all its priviledges and will fight tooth and nail not to go 'up north'. Regional assemblies are more likely but would they have any 'real' power or is it just more civil servants we don't need? Its all empty talk at the mo to get Scotland to vote no, then it'll move to all about the general election for the next 6/7 months where team BT lot will suddenly be at eachothers throats again. UK establishment have all the power and significant change is highly unlikely. Once the Scottish rebellion is quashed it'll go back to how it always is. Personally I hope for abandonment of party politics and more and more independent MPs winning seats who don't dance to the tune of power crazed party leaders. Proportional representation is long overdue, seems to work at Holyrood, why not at Westminster (or Manchester!).


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 17, 2014)

maxfli65 said:



			Agree wholeheartedly, but cant see it happening - politicians on the whole are in it for themselves and an awful lot of MP's like the London lifestyle, traditions and all its priviledges and will fight tooth and nail not to go 'up north'. Regional assemblies are more likely but would they have any 'real' power or is it just more civil servants we don't need? Its all empty talk at the mo to get Scotland to vote no, then it'll move to all about the general election for the next 6/7 months where team BT lot will suddenly be at eachothers throats again. UK establishment have all the power and significant change is highly unlikely. Once the Scottish rebellion is quashed it'll go back to how it always is. Personally I hope for abandonment of party politics and more and more independent MPs winning seats who don't dance to the tune of power crazed party leaders. Proportional representation is long overdue, seems to work at Holyrood, why not at Westminster (or Manchester!).
		
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I hate how true that is 

What I would love for the UK is to completely reassess it, get the PR, get regional assemblies with good levels of power, and a massively condensed Westminster for overall control.


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## Old Skier (Sep 17, 2014)

I just want people to vote. That's half the problem with what happened in Scotland, they moan about what party is in power in Westminister and then you find over half didn't even bother to vote. Wonder what the outcome of this vote would have been if only those that voted in the last Gen Election could vote this time round.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 17, 2014)

maxfli65 said:



			Agree wholeheartedly, but cant see it happening - politicians on the whole are in it for themselves and an awful lot of MP's like the London lifestyle, traditions and all its priviledges and will fight tooth and nail not to go 'up north'. Regional assemblies are more likely but would they have any 'real' power or is it just more civil servants we don't need? Its all empty talk at the mo to get Scotland to vote no, then it'll move to all about the general election for the next 6/7 months where team BT lot will suddenly be at eachothers throats again. UK establishment have all the power and significant change is highly unlikely. Once the Scottish rebellion is quashed it'll go back to how it always is. Personally I hope for abandonment of party politics and more and more independent MPs winning seats who don't dance to the tune of power crazed party leaders. Proportional representation is long overdue, seems to work at Holyrood, why not at Westminster (or Manchester!).
		
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Just stated a large part of the YES case there.  Whether Holyrood would be any better who knows - but at least the Scottish electorate might feel more able to hoof miscreants out.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 17, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just stated a large part of the YES case there.  Whether Holyrood would be any better who knows - but at least the Scottish electorate might feel more able to hoof miscreants out.
		
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a) No it won't. Human nature.

b) No they won't, not any more so than they can now.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 17, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			a) No it won't. Human nature.

b) No they won't, not any more so than they can now.
		
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TRue - though if you elect the government and you don't like their behaviour you can hoof em out.  Scottish electorate can't do that with a Westminster government.  And it was Westminster shenanigans that maxfli65 was referring to.


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 17, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			TRue - though if you elect the government and you don't like their behaviour you can hoof em out.  Scottish electorate can't do that with a Westminster government.  And it was Westminster shenanigans that maxfli65 was referring to.
		
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You're going to have to explain in what we it's easier for us to "hoof out" the holyrood government than the westminster one. And, please, don't try and suggest we didn't vote for the westminster one.....


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 17, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Scottish electorate can't do that with a Westminster government.
		
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Riiiiiiiight.

You do realise that if it wasn't for Scotland we would have a full Conservative government at the moment? So you could argue that Scotland hold more power than anywhere else!


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## CheltenhamHacker (Sep 17, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			You're going to have to explain in what we it's easier for us to "hoof out" the holyrood government than the westminster one. And, please, don't try and suggest we didn't vote for the westminster one.....
		
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Ahh, someone else who doesn't know.

I didn't know before, but through this referendum, I think I've worked out that each Scottish person only gets half a vote. That must be the case, because YES keep going on about not being able to vote properly in the election, not getting what they want etc


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 17, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			You're going to have to explain in what we it's easier for us to "hoof out" the holyrood government than the westminster one. And, please, don't try and suggest we didn't vote for the westminster one.....
		
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I'm not - simply that bit closer to the electorate.  But in the end if the electorate is split then shenanigans can prevail and the disgruntled still stuck with them


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 17, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Riiiiiiiight.

You do realise that if it wasn't for Scotland we would have a full Conservative government at the moment? So you could argue that Scotland hold more power than anywhere else!
		
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I agree - but what can the Scottish electorate actually do with that Westminster power?  They have voted for Labour MPs and yes that keeps a Tory majority at bay - so power and influence in Westminster - absolutely.  But influence or support is only really valuable if you can remove it.  The alternative the electorate currently have would then seem to be to NOT vote Labour and therefore ensure a Tory majority - not the result the Scottish electorate would perhaps wish for - or maybe it would.


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## Foxholer (Sep 17, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			You're going to have to explain in what we it's easier for us to "hoof out" the holyrood government than the westminster one. And, please, don't try and suggest we didn't vote for the westminster one.....
		
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It's purely a 'selfish' regional attitude - though more obvious with Scotland being a separate country.

If the sufficient voters in Scotland object to the way they are being governed, taxed, funded  etc, then if they have their own government, they can change it easily. If they don't have their own government, then they have to rely on the rest of the UK being of the same mind.

So it's actually the primary argument for Independence! Everything else in the campaign merely highlights advantages or disadvantages of the 2 different styles - plus a lot of emotional junk from both sides!

Btw. It might just be my cynicism, but I believe it's not actually Westminster that really governs anyway - it's Cabinet. And they try to avoid having to be assessed by Parliament wherever possible - only really being keen on going back to the peoples actual representatives when they can't get there own way and have to create new laws and then forcing their will using the Whips if necessary!


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 17, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			It's purely a 'selfish' regional attitude - though more obvious with Scotland being a separate country.

If the sufficient voters in Scotland object to the way they are being governed, taxed, funded  etc, then if they have their own government, they can change it easily. If they don't have their own government, then they have to rely on the rest of the UK being of the same mind.

So it's actually the primary argument for Independence! Everything else in the campaign merely highlights advantages or disadvantages of the 2 different styles - plus a lot of emotional junk from both sides!
		
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So it's the same junk as the "government we didn't vote for" nonsense that imagines the Scottish electorate as a heterogeneous bunch. We're each part of the UK electorate and we'll each be part of a Scottish electorate. 

A large proportion of people find the candidate/party they voted for doesn't get elected. That's democracy.


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## Hobbit (Sep 17, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			It's purely a 'selfish' regional attitude - though more obvious with Scotland being a separate country.

If the sufficient voters in Scotland object to the way they are being governed, taxed, funded  etc, then if they have their own government, they can change it easily. If they don't have their own government, then they have to rely on the rest of the UK being of the same mind.

So it's actually the primary argument for Independence! Everything else in the campaign merely highlights advantages or disadvantages of the 2 different styles - plus a lot of emotional junk from both sides!
		
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Nowt wrong with your assumption. And if the Scottish electorate hadn't fallen out with Labour we'd have a Labour Govt. So lets all blame the Scots for giving us a Tory govt.


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## bluewolf (Sep 17, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			A large proportion of people find the candidate/party they voted for doesn't get elected. That's democracy.
		
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In a short while it's going to be a way of life for a majority of Northerners.. So, when do we get a vote then?


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## Foxholer (Sep 17, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			So it's the same junk as the "government we didn't vote for" nonsense that *imagines the Scottish electorate as a heterogeneous bunch*. We're each part of the UK electorate and we'll each be part of a Scottish electorate...
		
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Surely they (you) are! Otherwise there'd be no doubt about tomorrow's result!



FairwayDodger said:



			...We're each part of the UK electorate and we'll each be part of a Scottish electorate...
		
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 The first part of that might be changed tomorrow!



FairwayDodger said:



			...
A large proportion of people find the candidate/party they voted for doesn't get elected. That's democracy.
		
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Indeed! And that definitely looks likely to happen with tomorrow's decision too!


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## FairwayDodger (Sep 17, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Surely they (you) are! Otherwise there'd be no doubt about tomorrow's result!
		
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My bad, meant to say "homogeneous"


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## Foxholer (Sep 17, 2014)

FairwayDodger said:



			My bad, meant to say "homogeneous"
		
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Explains it! Thought you of all folk would have got those the right way round!  

There's certainly a tendency, of which I'm certainly guilty, of categorising the extremely diverse Scottish electorate as 'the Scots'. Though with such a large proportion based in a Glasgow and its surrounds (and much of the rest in nearby Edinburgh), that's pretty much inevitable imo.


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## HDID Kenny (Sep 17, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			I just want people to vote. That's half the problem with what happened in Scotland, they moan about what party is in power in Westminister and then you find over half didn't even bother to vote. Wonder what the outcome of this vote would have been if only those that voted in the last Gen Election could vote this time round.
		
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People will vote because their vote will count unlike GE when if you are voting for an opponent in a seat with an overwhelming majority for 50 years your vote is pointless!! I know politics are a necessary evil however during a GE it would be interesting to have a 'none of the above' option.


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## USER1999 (Sep 17, 2014)

HDID Kenny said:



			People will vote because their vote will count unlike GE when if you are voting for an opponent in a seat with an overwhelming majority for 50 years your vote is pointless!! I know politics are a necessary evil however during a GE it would be interesting to have a 'none of the above' option.
		
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But they might get in, and then what happens?


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## HDID Kenny (Sep 17, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			But they might get in, and then what happens?
		
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No might about it!! Would be a slap in the face to them make them sit up and notice.


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