# UKIP a change on the political horizon or not.



## Tashyboy (Oct 10, 2014)

With the gaining of the first seat for UKIP , which was probably nailed on, and nearly gaining another seat at the other end of the country. Is the political scene/balance going to change in the near future ?


----------



## AlexDarling (Oct 10, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			With the gaining of the first seat for UKIP , which was probably nailed on, and nearly gaining another seat at the other end of the country. Is the political scene/balance going to change in the near future ?
		
Click to expand...

not as significantly as your post is inferring....imo.


----------



## Beezerk (Oct 10, 2014)

AlexDarling said:



			not as significantly as your post is inferring....imo.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed, they're another political flash in the pan who'll have their little bit of fame than fade into nothingness.
Bunch of jokers IMO.


----------



## Khamelion (Oct 10, 2014)

Perhaps in the marginal seats where people want a change from what they have historically had, but in the dyed in the wool areas where one party has always been in power, not a chance.

The area where I live has always been a labour area, in every election, no other party has got even half the number of votes, so in other areas like where I live it will take something really radical for UKIP to make in roads.


----------



## Tashyboy (Oct 10, 2014)

AlexDarling said:



			not as significantly as your post is inferring....imo.
		
Click to expand...

Its not inferring anything, it's asking a question which is being asked on BBC TV as I am watching now. I am interested in people's views.


----------



## Tashyboy (Oct 10, 2014)

Khamelion said:



			Perhaps in the marginal seats where people want a change from what they have historically had, but in the dyed in the wool areas where one party has always been in power, not a chance.

The area where I live has always been a labour area, in every election, no other party has got even half the number of votes, so in other areas like where I live it will take something really radical for UKIP to make in roads.
		
Click to expand...

That may well be the case having a look at previous results in the heywood election in 2010 labour won 40.1% of the vote with UKIP getting 2.6. This time labour gained 40.9%, with UKIP getting 38.7 but all of there gains were from the Torys and liberals.

I think another big factor was the low turnout of the electorate.


----------



## Doh (Oct 10, 2014)

My View is that it is good to introduce new blood now and again, keeps everyone on their toe's.


----------



## guest100718 (Oct 10, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			Its not inferring anything, it's asking a question which is being asked on BBC TV as I am watching now. I am interested in people's views.
		
Click to expand...

Not where I live, We have had the same tory MP for the last 17 years and I cant see that changing any time soon, in fact I think every Hertfordhsire constituency is conservative.


----------



## Lord Tyrion (Oct 10, 2014)

I think they could have a significant impact at the next election whether by winning seats or by taking votes from the other parties so interfering in that seat. I don't think anyone quite knows how much impact but at the moment they are the party with momentum and that momentum is growing. The attacks on them morning show very clearly that they are no longer a joke party and the main parties are taking them very seriously.

Long term - Who knows? I don't think they have enough depth to their policies and those that they have don't often stand up to scrutiny. If nothing else they are shaking the big two up and Farage is refreshingly blunt and happy to answer questions directly. They are not for me but as an operator he is currently the best out there.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Oct 10, 2014)

Certainly not in Scotland.


----------



## DCB (Oct 10, 2014)

Interesting listening to the tv crew interviewing people as they left the polling station and asking would they vote the same way in the General Election. Answer was No. If they've made a protest vote for UKIP then there's only 8 months to worry about it. Big test comes next May.


----------



## delc (Oct 10, 2014)

Voting for UKIP at by elections is probably similar to voting for the Lib-Dems in past by elections as a protest vote.  Intended to hit the ruling political party where it hurts the most!


----------



## JamPal (Oct 10, 2014)

UKIP provide a valuable service to the hard of thinking. They give them an excuse, some one to blame for the problems in their lives. By blaming all their problems on immigration and the EU people are absolved of responsibility for their own short-comings. It's marvelous

You can't blame thick people for voting for them. If I was too stupid to acknowledge that we need immigration to provide a work-force in our aging population, and too thick to see the irony in campaigning for "Better Together" while wanting isolation from our biggest markets on the continent, I too would vote UKIP. Thankfully I have a 3 figure IQ, so I don't need to.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 10, 2014)

When a UKIP MP is voted in that isn't someone who has held that seat for over a decade and just recently deflected then people will take notice


----------



## delc (Oct 10, 2014)

JamPal said:



			Thankfully I have a 3 figure IQ, so I don't need to.
		
Click to expand...

The average IQ is 100 and that has 3 figures!


----------



## AlexDarling (Oct 10, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



*Its not inferring anything*, it's asking a question which is being asked on BBC TV as I am watching now. I am interested in people's views.
		
Click to expand...

it very clearly is!


----------



## jp5 (Oct 10, 2014)

JamPal said:



			UKIP provide a valuable service to the hard of thinking. They give them an excuse, some one to blame for the problems in their lives. By blaming all their problems on immigration and the EU people are absolved of responsibility for their own short-comings. It's marvelous

You can't blame thick people for voting for them. If I was too stupid to acknowledge that we need immigration to provide a work-force in our aging population, and too thick to see the irony in campaigning for "Better Together" while wanting isolation from our biggest markets on the continent, I too would vote UKIP. Thankfully I have a 3 figure IQ, so I don't need to.
		
Click to expand...

And unfortunately you can't help the even thicker who choose to believe everything they read in media!


----------



## Imurg (Oct 10, 2014)

It wouldn't surprise me if UKIP gave out Tory MP a run for his money next year.
UKIP have come out firmly against the HS2 rail link - a lot of David Liddington's constituents are being screwed by the prospect of the line and may protest by voting against him - he hasn't come out against the line....
Might not make a difference but....


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Oct 10, 2014)

I'm sure UKIP will make inroads but my biggest worry would be the fact that if they won a lot of the marginal seats, how much would it affect one party gaining an overall majority. We know that some areas are nailed on blue or red (or other parties in Scotland and Northern Ireland) and they will stay the same. It's these marginals that are crucial to a winning majority and with UKIP taking these away will there be an outright winner?


----------



## FairwayDodger (Oct 10, 2014)

I think the combination of an incumbent candidate and a protest vote swelling their ballot was enough to get UKIP the win. As already said, many people questioned leaving the polls stated they wouldn't vote the same way in the general election. 

Either Labour or Conservative will win the election, UKIP will probably increase their share of the vote but I doubt they'll win many, if any, seats.


----------



## Ethan (Oct 10, 2014)

The more UKIP policies are publicised, the more people will realise that many of them are very thin or completely bonkers. UKIP seem to imagine a Britain set sometimes in the 50s and most of the supporters don't know what they stand for beyond a vague notion that the UK shouldn't be controlled by Brussels (which it isn't) or the country overrun by immigrants (also which it isn't). 

Best case scenario (for them), after the next election they will have a number of seats somewhere in the range of Sinn Fein (5) and the Democratic Unionist Party (8). They will make a lot of noise but will still essentially be an irrelevance and many of those who vote for them at by elections will go back to the main parties at the general.


----------



## Khamelion (Oct 10, 2014)

Come election time next year, all the various census takers will be publishing their polls prior to the main event and I have no doubt that many if not all will show that UKIP have made major in roads into taking seats away from Labour and the Tories.

But...

When it comes down to putting pen to paper and putting you cross in the box, the vast majority of the voting public will vote for one of the traditional two, why? Because people are scared of change and UKIP is a set into the unknown.

Sometimes it's better the devil you know...


----------



## Yerman (Oct 10, 2014)

UKIP or SNP will continue to thrive as long as politicians continue to put their own spln on these results and show no signs of addressing working peoples concerns. Having the two Eds or the Eton boys in charge is going to impress no-one.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Oct 10, 2014)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/polit...oters-who-are-fed-up-and-stupid-2014101091618


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 10, 2014)

JamPal said:



			UKIP provide a valuable service to the hard of thinking. They give them an excuse, some one to blame for the problems in their lives. By blaming all their problems on immigration and the EU people are absolved of responsibility for their own short-comings. It's marvelous

You can't blame thick people for voting for them. If I was too stupid to acknowledge that we need immigration to provide a work-force in our aging population, and too thick to see the irony in campaigning for "Better Together" while wanting isolation from our biggest markets on the continent, I too would vote UKIP. Thankfully I have a 3 figure IQ, so I don't need to.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry for being a bit (maybe quite a bit) thick but wont these immigrants get older and add to the ageing population.  In that case will we need to have an exponential increase of immigrants to meet your suggested work force requirements?   Now!  If the population increases at this rate will there be an exponential growth of jobs, houses and public services available for them.

Just asking!


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 10, 2014)

So just to clarify:

59.66% of voters in Clacton and 38.7% of voters in Heywood and Middleton are too thick to have the vote. Maybe they should have the vote taken away from them if they are that stupid and get taken in so easy by DM rubbish.   

How about force feeding them the Guardian and sending them on a labour awareness course.     Guess I am starting to sound a bit single (or simple) minded now. :blah:


----------



## Hacker Khan (Oct 10, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			So just to clarify:

59.66% of voters in Clacton and 38.7% of voters in Heywood and Middleton are too thick to have the vote.* Maybe they should have the vote taken away from them if they are that stupid and get taken in so easy by DM rubbish*.   

How about force feeding them the Guardian and sending them on a labour awareness course.     Guess I am starting to sound a bit single (or simple) minded now. :blah:
		
Click to expand...

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...rties-it-attributes-to-cannabis-2014100991555


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 10, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...rties-it-attributes-to-cannabis-2014100991555

Click to expand...


Could be worse.  They could be listening to Des O'Connor CD's.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 10, 2014)

Thankfully when it comes down to the real gritty choice next year UKIP will amongst the also rans imo -  if that high


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 10, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Thankfully when it comes down to the real gritty choice next year UKIP will amongst the also rans imo -  if that high
		
Click to expand...


Time will tell.   IMO unless the major parties address the issues that a large and growing number of voters are concerned about then UKIP will do very well.    These issues are Immigration and the EU and anyone who thinks they're not are being naive.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Oct 10, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Time will tell.   IMO unless the major parties address the issues that a large and growing number of voters are concerned about then UKIP will do very well.    These issues are Immigration and the EU and anyone who thinks they are not are being naive.
		
Click to expand...

I agree they are an issue.  But how much of this is due to the fact that they are major factors influencing peoples day to day existence.  Or they are being hyped up with sometimes ridiculous scare stories by some forms of the media and by some political parties in order to forward their particular questionable agenda without thinking of the long term social and economic consequences, is another question.  But then again who am I to say it's questionable...


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 10, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			I agree they are an issue.  But how much of this is due to the fact that they are major factors influencing peoples day to day existence.  Or they are being hyped up with sometimes ridiculous scare stories by some forms of the media and by some political parties in order to forward their particular questionable agenda without thinking of the long term social and economic consequences, is another question.  But then again who am I to say it's questionable...

Click to expand...

Maybe, but just maybe they are not the influencers but the rally point these people are looking for and cannot find them anywhere else.    No matter what you or I say a growing number of the public are not happy with the rate of cultural change they have seen in the UK and are looking for a way to register their protest.    Calling them stupid and easily influenced by newspapers is missing the point and disingenuous to a large number of the population.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 10, 2014)

Or possibly people are voting against the main parties because of mistakes they have made in the past

It's impossible to tell unless each voter is asked - could easily be protest votes as opposed to voting against a rise in cultural existence in the UK ( I prefer to call it the country just evolving ) 

It would be interesting to see who will do the jobs that a lot of foreign workers are willing to do - seems they don't mind getting their hands dirty to earn their way in life.

Also believe it costs Â£6bn to be part of EU yet earns the UK double that and leaving the EU would create boundaries and issues for companies - also interesting is the lack of detail or depth in UKIP's policies


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Oct 10, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It would be interesting to see who will do the jobs that a lot of foreign workers are willing to do - seems they don't mind getting their hands dirty to earn their way in life.
		
Click to expand...

Here's a radical idea........ Why not get British people to do them instead of sitting at home claiming benefits?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 10, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Here's a radical idea........ Why not get British people to do them instead of sitting at home claiming benefits?
		
Click to expand...

The jobs are there for British people to do

Car washing is a perfect example 

Foreign nationals working day and night to get a business up and running - why didn't a UK national think of it ? Because for a lot it's too much like hard work 

I believe finding a way to curb the benefit culture is needed but I would still prefer someone who actually wants to do the job and will work hard as opposed to someone going through the motions to get benefit money


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 10, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Or possibly people are voting against the main parties because of mistakes they have made in the past

It's impossible to tell unless each voter is asked - could easily be protest votes as opposed to voting against a rise in cultural existence in the UK ( I prefer to call it the country just evolving ) 

It would be interesting to see who will do the jobs that a lot of foreign workers are willing to do - seems they don't mind getting their hands dirty to earn their way in life.

Also believe it costs Â£6bn to be part of EU yet earns the UK double that and leaving the EU would create boundaries and issues for companies - also interesting is the lack of detail or depth in UKIP's policies
		
Click to expand...

Phil, to suggest a very large number of people are not concerned with immigration and the EU is being naive.  Even if it is a protest vote then it is a protest about something and that something is what I just mentioned IMO.

Regarding the finances of EU membership and the effect on business you are looking at this in a slightly blinkered way.   Are you suggesting we would earn nothing from Europe if we left the EU?    If we did leave there are a number of trading groups we could join and looking at a commonwealth group would be a great opportunity, we could also get a free trade agreement with the EU at a much reduced cost and without the amount of interference on our ability to decide our own destiny.    The EU is currently a failing power and from what I can see has a very rocky path ahead of it, we would be much better away.


----------



## MadAdey (Oct 10, 2014)

It is worrying that someone like UKIP could gain more and more seats from certain areas of the country. Where I lived was full of immigrants and the local people are getting fed up with the trouble that they have brought with them. Areas of a little rural market that people will not walk through at night due to the immigrants hanging around. They stand in the street openly selling drugs to kids and I have witnessed this first hand. 

I would not give my vote to them, but while people feel strongly against immigration they stand a chane of getting more and more seats.


----------



## Tashyboy (Oct 10, 2014)

drive4show said:



			Here's a radical idea........ Why not get British people to do them instead of sitting at home claiming benefits?
		
Click to expand...

Now drive for show, you are a bad man for saying what many people are thinking, and that I think is why a lot of people vote UKIP or can relate to UKIPs policies however shallow they may seem.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 10, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The jobs are there for British people to do

Car washing is a perfect example 

Foreign nationals working day and night to get a business up and running - why didn't a UK national think of it ? Because for a lot it's too much like hard work 

I believe finding a way to curb the benefit culture is needed but I would still prefer someone who actually wants to do the job and will work hard as opposed to someone going through the motions to get benefit money
		
Click to expand...

If they never got the benefits they would probably prefer to work hard.   Why do you think eastern Europeans want to be here, if they were offered similar benefits at home to what our people get here they would stay there.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 10, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Phil, to suggest a very large number of people are not concerned with immigration and the EU is being naive.  Even if it is a protest vote then it is a protest about something and that something is what I just mentioned IMO.

Regarding the finances of EU membership and the effect on business you are looking at this in a slightly blinkered way.   Are you suggesting we would earn nothing from Europe if we left the EU?    If we did leave there are a number of trading groups we could join and looking at a commonwealth group would be a great opportunity, we could also get a free trade agreement with the EU at a much reduced cost and without the amount of interference on our ability to decide our own destiny.    The EU is currently a failing power and from what I can see has a very rocky path ahead of it, we would be much better away.
		
Click to expand...

I wasn't suggesting anything apart from pointing out that you can't know why people have recently voted UKIP 

Yes we could join other European Trade Groups - believe we have already discussed the main other one 

But I do like the idea you have formed about leaving the EU then asking them for free trade agreement ( which we have being in the EU ) for cheaper - it seems such a flawless a wonderful plan Im sure you can point out the other countries jumping at the chance right now


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 10, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			If they never got the benefits they would probably prefer to work hard.   Why do you think eastern Europeans want to be here, if they were offered similar benefits at home to what our people get here they would stay there.
		
Click to expand...

Eastern Europeans want to be here to gain more money for the hard work they put in 

We pay higher wages than eastern european countries


----------



## Pin-seeker (Oct 10, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The jobs are there for British people to do

Car washing is a perfect example 

Foreign nationals working day and night to get a business up and running - why didn't a UK national think of it ? Because for a lot it's too much like hard work 

I believe finding a way to curb the benefit culture is needed but I would still prefer someone who actually wants to do the job and will work hard as opposed to someone going through the motions to get benefit money
		
Click to expand...

I agree,too many people sponging,using the excuse that they can't find a job they like.
Instead of living in the real world & realising that work is there to pay the bills.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 10, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Eastern Europeans want to be here to gain more money for the hard work they put in 

We pay higher wages than eastern european countries
		
Click to expand...

You're missing the point.   If Eastern European Governments paid higher benefits then these people would stay at home.   If we paid lower benefits to the feckless then they would go to work.   What is the advantage to pay British people to stay at home and import people to work?   The Lunatics are running the asylum.


----------



## Pin-seeker (Oct 10, 2014)

If you're on benefits you shouldn't be able to afford sky tv,cigarettes,holidays or afternoons in the local working men's club.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 11, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			You're missing the point.   If Eastern European Governments paid higher benefits then these people would stay at home.   If we paid lower benefits to the feckless then they would go to work.   What is the advantage to pay British people to stay at home and import people to work?   The Lunatics are running the asylum.
		
Click to expand...

We aren't "importing" people to work 

Eastern Europeans come to the UK to do jobs people can't be bothered to do 

They are an integral part of our community just as all foreign people working in our community 

As I said earlier I would rather have someone working hard to earn their money because I know they will do a good job as opposed to someone just going through the motions to get benefit money 

I know you wish to see this perfect UK where it's just UK nationals doing jobs and no one on benefits but it's not going to happen

Far too many people are looking to blame immigrants for taking jobs etc when the reality is they are doing jobs that lazy Jeremy Kyle types think is below then and they are UK nationals


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We aren't "importing" people to work 

Eastern Europeans come to the UK to do jobs people can't be bothered to do 

They are an integral part of our community just as all foreign people working in our community 

As I said earlier I would rather have someone working hard to earn their money because I know they will do a good job as opposed to someone just going through the motions to get benefit money 

I know you wish to see this perfect UK where it's just UK nationals doing jobs and no one on benefits but it's not going to happen

Far too many people are looking to blame immigrants for taking jobs etc when the reality is they are doing jobs that lazy Jeremy Kyle types think is below then and they are UK nationals
		
Click to expand...

1) I want a controlled immigration policy where people come based on skills and need.
2) It would happen if we cut off the money supply, just like Poland et al do.
3) You don't seem to know what side of the fence you are on.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 11, 2014)

And I want an immigration policy based on people who are willing to arrive and contribute to the country by working hard whatever they do and whatever skill they have


----------



## c1973 (Oct 11, 2014)

Quite a bit of stereotyping from both sides of the argument here. Funnily enough I think both sides are correct to a degree. There are lazy feckless types who don't want to do certain types of work that hard working immigrants will do, but the flip side is there are plenty who would happily do them but can't get a start; also, there are immigrants who are here for the benefits too. A bit of a mix of both arguments imo.
Not one side is correct or completely wrong.

The thing with UKIP is that their main polices are Europe and immigration and they do seem to connect with a lot of people on them. The more they appear to succeed in gaining votes then more will join them thinking it ain't a wasted vote. The increase in support/popularity of UKIP should have led to 'serious' debate on these two issues (I feel a lot of the UK public demand it) but it hasn't, mainstream parties are scared of the issue (or of being seen to be racist, which is codswallop imo) and all of them lack a strong capable leader who could tackle it head on. 

UKIP are not afraid of discussing the issue and have pretty much been void of any proper political counter arguments, loosely insinuating they are all rabid nationalists and racists does not count as debate. Until this changes, the possibility is there that they could continue to make gains.


For me the worrying thing is not UKIP as such, but the fact there appears to be a lot of people in the UK who want these issues looked at, debated and hopefully (in their opinion) changed that are being ignored and at times derided as being racist (although I sense that  particular counter argument is on the wane slightly).

In short, we need a proper national debate with hard facts on the pros and cons of immigration and Europe and we need it now.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 11, 2014)

c1973 said:



			Quite a bit of stereotyping from both sides of the argument here. Funnily enough I think both sides are correct to a degree. There are lazy feckless types who don't want to do certain types of work that hard working immigrants will do, but the flip side is there are plenty who would happily do them but can't get a start; also, there are immigrants who are here for the benefits too. A bit of a mix of both arguments imo.
Not one side is correct or completely wrong.

The thing with UKIP is that their main polices are Europe and immigration and they do seem to connect with a lot of people on them. The more they appear to succeed in gaining votes then more will join them thinking it ain't a wasted vote. The increase in support/popularity of UKIP should have led to 'serious' debate on these two issues (I feel a lot of the UK public demand it) but it hasn't, mainstream parties are scared of the issue (or of being seen to be racist, which is codswallop imo) and all of them lack a strong capable leader who could tackle it head on. 

UKIP are not afraid of discussing the issue and have pretty much been void of any proper political counter arguments, loosely insinuating they are all rabid nationalists and racists does not count as debate. Until this changes, the possibility is there that they could continue to make gains.


For me the worrying thing is not UKIP as such, but the fact there appears to be a lot of people in the UK who want these issues looked at, debated and hopefully (in their opinion) changed that are being ignored and at times derided as being racist (although I sense that  particular counter argument is on the wane slightly).

In short, we need a proper national debate with hard facts on the pros and cons of immigration and Europe and we need it now.
		
Click to expand...


A very good post.


----------



## Ethan (Oct 11, 2014)

c1973 said:



			Quite a bit of stereotyping from both sides of the argument here. Funnily enough I think both sides are correct to a degree. There are lazy feckless types who don't want to do certain types of work that hard working immigrants will do, but the flip side is there are plenty who would happily do them but can't get a start; also, there are immigrants who are here for the benefits too. A bit of a mix of both arguments imo.
Not one side is correct or completely wrong.

The thing with UKIP is that their main polices are Europe and immigration and they do seem to connect with a lot of people on them. The more they appear to succeed in gaining votes then more will join them thinking it ain't a wasted vote. The increase in support/popularity of UKIP should have led to 'serious' debate on these two issues (I feel a lot of the UK public demand it) but it hasn't, mainstream parties are scared of the issue (or of being seen to be racist, which is codswallop imo) and all of them lack a strong capable leader who could tackle it head on. 

UKIP are not afraid of discussing the issue and have pretty much been void of any proper political counter arguments, loosely insinuating they are all rabid nationalists and racists does not count as debate. Until this changes, the possibility is there that they could continue to make gains.


For me the worrying thing is not UKIP as such, but the fact there appears to be a lot of people in the UK who want these issues looked at, debated and hopefully (in their opinion) changed that are being ignored and at times derided as being racist (although I sense that  particular counter argument is on the wane slightly).

In short, we need a proper national debate with hard facts on the pros and cons of immigration and Europe and we need it now.
		
Click to expand...

The alternative view is that UKIP ARE simply rabid nationalists and have created a false debate because there isn't actually an underlying problem. The fact they have got a lot of people who don't really understand what is going on in the economy all hot and bothered does not mean that the mainstream parties should all be dragged into a debate. This is the modern media model, create a false dichotomy and an appearance of a balanced debate where there really isn't one. Clacton Man may think the country is being over run with immigrants stealing our jobs and taking our welfare, but doesn't make it true. The rest of the UKIP policy platform is a mixture of wishful thinking, a return to the 1950s and voids where they haven't thought of anything yet. When sensible people examine their manifestos, most will run for the hills.  

The Tories have done the same with welfare. The people that Ian Duncan Smith is attacking make little or no difference to the economy. NHS health tourism is a drop in the ocean, but there are people, idiots, who think these issues are pushing the countries economy into the toilet, so the politicians are happy to exploit that.

The trouble with facts is that many people do not want to hear facts, they just want to hear what fits their prejudice. Shame on politicians who pander to that, greater shame that almost all of them do.


----------



## c1973 (Oct 11, 2014)

Ethan said:



*The alternative view is that UKIP ARE simply rabid nationalists and have created a false debate because there isn't actually an underlying problem.* The fact they have got a lot of people who don't really understand what is going on in the economy all hot and bothered does not mean that the mainstream parties should all be dragged into a debate. This is the modern media model, create a false dichotomy and an appearance of a balanced debate where there really isn't one. Clacton Man may think the country is being over run with immigrants stealing our jobs and taking our welfare, but doesn't make it true. The rest of the UKIP policy platform is a mixture of wishful thinking, a return to the 1950s and voids where they haven't thought of anything yet. When sensible people examine their manifestos, most will run for the hills.  

The Tories have done the same with welfare. The people that Ian Duncan Smith is attacking make little or no difference to the economy. NHS health tourism is a drop in the ocean, but there are people, idiots, who think these issues are pushing the countries economy into the toilet, so the politicians are happy to exploit that.

The trouble with facts is that many people do not want to hear facts, they just want to hear what fits their prejudice. Shame on politicians who pander to that, greater shame that almost all of them do.
		
Click to expand...

Correct, I do not disagree that there is an alternative viewpoint, that's why imo we need a proper debate. 

Whether you or I agree or disagree is neither here nor there though. A lot of people do feel there is an issue and do feel they are affected, you can't ignore them.


For the avoidance of doubt, my personal belief is the problem is exaggerated at the moment, but there is an issue, and it needs to be debated seriously to ensure it does not become the problem many people think it is. 

You know, it is perfectly normal and an acceptable position for both sides to be correct in certain aspects. This is an argument where I think it would apply, it's not black and white.


----------



## Tashyboy (Oct 11, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			A very good post.
		
Click to expand...

And I for one will second that, it is the sort of neutral post I was thinking of when I started this blog irrespective of what others say.

i do think that immigration and benefits are linked.

benefits do have a massive part to play in this country but when this country went through a double dip recession and the country's work force suffered through loss of jobs, houses etc etc, people on benefits were untouched.

there is a large part of this country that have no intention what so ever of doing a days work knowing full well that they can get by on benefits. And don't anyone say that's hearsay coz I have a daughter who claims the lot, house furniture, the lot and it sticks in my families throat.

unscreened immigration. Who are we actually letting in. Recent events of murderers being allowed into the UK should make us shudder.

For anyone to say that immigration has no part to play in this country needs to take a step back and think. It has a massive part to play. but why are we paying someone from "abroad" to work in fields in Norfolk when there are young uns laying in bed all day playing there play stations. That is not a skilled workforce. The job centres should be saying "here is work, turn up if not end of job seekers etc"

whatever people say about UKIP, they get people discussing issues which  "educated politicians" from parties whose supporters have an electorate IQ of above 3 figures don't. The latest being UKIP do not want anyone with life threatening illnesses into the country, which include TB and HIV. There are accused of being homophobic etc. but the stats show that in 2013, 40% of all new diagnosed cases of HIV were from people from overseas. Now who in the UK is benefiting from that.

it has been alleged that the supporters of UKIP are not the most educated. if that is the case, and I am sure most do not know UKIPs  policies inc me. then what does it imply when an educated MP defects from the Torys to join UKIPs numpties.Furthermore if said MP was disgusted in the alleged homophobic HIV UKIP comment he would have more of an insight to HIV as his father is credited with being one of the original scientists which discovered The HIV virus. So I am sure it's not a topic which has been discussed lightly over the dinner table.

Back to my original point, UKIP change on the political Horizon? Only time will tell but one things is for sure. It has got people talking seriously about politics for the first time in years and years, and that can only be good for the UK.


----------



## Ethan (Oct 11, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			And I for one will second that, it is the sort of neutral post I was thinking of when I started this blog irrespective of what others say.

i do think that immigration and benefits are linked.

benefits do have a massive part to play in this country but when this country went through a double dip recession and the country's work force suffered through loss of jobs, houses etc etc, people on benefits were untouched.

there is a large part of this country that have no intention what so ever of doing a days work knowing full well that they can get by on benefits. And don't anyone say that's hearsay coz I have a daughter who claims the lot, house furniture, the lot and it sticks in my families throat.

unscreened immigration. Who are we actually letting in. Recent events of murderers being allowed into the UK should make us shudder.

For anyone to say that immigration has no part to play in this country needs to take a step back and think. It has a massive part to play. but why are we paying someone from "abroad" to work in fields in Norfolk when there are young uns laying in bed all day playing there play stations. That is not a skilled workforce. The job centres should be saying "here is work, turn up if not end of job seekers etc"

whatever people say about UKIP, they get people discussing issues which  "educated politicians" from parties whose supporters have an electorate IQ of above 3 figures don't. The latest being UKIP do not want anyone with life threatening illnesses into the country, which include TB and HIV. There are accused of being homophobic etc. but the stats show that in 2013, 40% of all new diagnosed cases of HIV were from people from overseas. Now who in the UK is benefiting from that.

it has been alleged that the supporters of UKIP are not the most educated. if that is the case, and I am sure most do not know UKIPs  policies inc me. then what does it imply when an educated MP defects from the Torys to join UKIPs numpties.Furthermore if said MP was disgusted in the alleged homophobic HIV UKIP comment he would have more of an insight to HIV as his father is credited with being one of the original scientists which discovered The HIV virus. So I am sure it's not a topic which has been discussed lightly over the dinner table.

Back to my original point, UKIP change on the political Horizon? Only time will tell but one things is for sure. It has got people talking seriously about politics for the first time in years and years, and that can only be good for the UK.
		
Click to expand...

You, sir, are precisely the sort of person UKIP is targeting. 

I can just see the new slogan "UKIP - the party for people whose IQ is not in three figures (not including decimal places)."

Carswell has no special insight into HIV, but he has form in homophobia.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Oct 11, 2014)

c1973 said:



			Quite a bit of stereotyping from both sides of the argument here. Funnily enough I think both sides are correct to a degree. There are lazy feckless types who don't want to do certain types of work that hard working immigrants will do, but the flip side is there are plenty who would happily do them but can't get a start; also, there are immigrants who are here for the benefits too. A bit of a mix of both arguments imo.
Not one side is correct or completely wrong.

The thing with UKIP is that their main polices are Europe and immigration and they do seem to connect with a lot of people on them. The more they appear to succeed in gaining votes then more will join them thinking it ain't a wasted vote. The increase in support/popularity of UKIP should have led to 'serious' debate on these two issues (I feel a lot of the UK public demand it) but it hasn't, mainstream parties are scared of the issue (or of being seen to be racist, which is codswallop imo) and all of them lack a strong capable leader who could tackle it head on. 

UKIP are not afraid of discussing the issue and have pretty much been void of any proper political counter arguments, loosely insinuating they are all rabid nationalists and racists does not count as debate. Until this changes, the possibility is there that they could continue to make gains.


For me the worrying thing is not UKIP as such, but the fact there appears to be a lot of people in the UK who want these issues looked at, debated and hopefully (in their opinion) changed that are being ignored and at times derided as being racist (although I sense that  particular counter argument is on the wane slightly).

*In short, we need a proper national debate with hard facts on the pros and cons of immigration and Europe and we need it now.*

Click to expand...

I think the chances of having an 'informed' national debate on these matters is slim to minimal.  You've seen on here what happens and you would argue that golfers are supposed to be a pretty sensible traditional bunch, full of etiquette and manners. Yes there are some good points made by both sides, but there are also some really idiotic and racist comments made based on nothing much more than prejudice and propaganda.  And I'm sure people could find some really left wings statements as well.

If you intensify that with even more extreme views, then finding out some hard facts becomes almost impossible and all that will happen is people will cherry pick things that back up their pretty entrenched views. Of which I am probably as guilty as anyone


----------



## AmandaJR (Oct 11, 2014)

I've not read the posts but the title made me think of an interesting question posed to the BBC this morning..."now UKIP has the same number of seats as The Green Party will the amount of coverage given to them be similar?"


----------



## jp5 (Oct 11, 2014)

AmandaJR said:



			I've not read the posts but the title made me think of an interesting question posed to the BBC this morning..."now UKIP has the same number of seats as The Green Party will the amount of coverage given to them be similar?"
		
Click to expand...

No because UKIP are making great progress whereas the Greens aren't


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Oct 11, 2014)

jp5 said:



			No because UKIP are making great progress whereas the Greens aren't
		
Click to expand...

The Greens have made a lot of progress in Scotland.
Much more than UKIP.


----------



## jp5 (Oct 11, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Greens have made a lot of progress in Scotland.
Much more than UKIP.
		
Click to expand...

Yes but there is a lot more to the UK than Scotland.


----------



## Hobbit (Oct 11, 2014)

Ethan said:



			You, sir, are precisely the sort of person UKIP is targeting. 

I can just see the new slogan "UKIP - the party for people whose IQ is not in three figures (not including decimal places)."

Carswell has no special insight into HIV, but he has form in homophobia.
		
Click to expand...

I guess my UKIP vote and IQ of 134 are at odds with each other. So why am on the very top mark of gifted but voting UKIP?

Without going into reams about illegal wars, expense scandals, u-turns over manifesto promises, irrespective of which party, I want to give the established parties a bloody nose. I want them to be honest and trustworthy. And if giving them a bloody nose makes them sit up and listen to the people, I'm all for it.

Do I want UKIP in power? No. Do I want them in a coalition? No. They have the odd policy that makes some sense, just as all the parties do, but just like the Lib Dems have proven to be they're not good enough for office.

My UKIP vote is a protest vote because I don't trust either the Cons or Labour anymore.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 11, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			I guess my UKIP vote and IQ of 134 are at odds with each other. So why am on the very top mark of gifted but voting UKIP?

Without going into reams about illegal wars, expense scandals, u-turns over manifesto promises, irrespective of which party, I want to give the established parties a bloody nose. I want them to be honest and trustworthy. And if giving them a bloody nose makes them sit up and listen to the people, I'm all for it.

Do I want UKIP in power? No. Do I want them in a coalition? No. They have the odd policy that makes some sense, just as all the parties do, but just like the Lib Dems have proven to be they're not good enough for office.

*My UKIP vote is a protest vote because I don't trust either the Cons or Labour anymore.*

Click to expand...

And that mate is what i believe is happening in recent by elections etc - to try and give them main parties a kick where it hurts


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 11, 2014)

Ethan said:



			You, sir, are precisely the sort of person UKIP is targeting. 

I can just see the new slogan "UKIP - the party for people whose IQ is not in three figures (not including decimal places)."

Carswell has no special insight into HIV, but he has form in homophobia.
		
Click to expand...

I guess you would be happy if the right to vote was a prerequisite of a high IQ.     You Sir are exactly the type of person the Liberal Elite are made up of.


----------



## Fish (Oct 11, 2014)

Ethan said:



			You, sir, are precisely the sort of person UKIP is targeting. 

*I can just see the new slogan "UKIP - the party for people whose IQ is not in three figures (not including decimal places)."*

Carswell has no special insight into HIV, but he has form in homophobia.
		
Click to expand...

I think this is very poor of you Ethan, I think if I accused a fellow formumite of having a 2-digit IQ based on their opinion I would have had a warning of some kind, everyone is entitled to an opinion but then associating it with having a low IQ is quite uncalled for!


----------



## Tashyboy (Oct 11, 2014)

Ethan said:



			You, sir, are precisely the sort of person UKIP is targeting. 

I can just see the new slogan "UKIP - the party for people whose IQ is not in three figures (not including decimal places)."

Carswell has no special insight into HIV, but he has form in homophobia.
		
Click to expand...

Ethan you may well be correct that I am the sort of person they are looking at. But what/who exactly am I.

51 yr old worked in the coal mines for 36 yr til I am made redundant next year. The Tory government has hammered the mining industry. They can apply to the EU for state aid as has Germany, Spain, Czechs, Poland. Etc etc to soften the blow to not just the miners but it's supporting industries. but it chooses not to. So forgive me if I don't wave a Davis Cameron flag.

But hang on a minute, Labour has shut just as many pits as the Tories, yeah but that was 50 yr ago. er no it wasn't. new Labour under That Criminal Tony. Blair did nowt to help me either. So there's no waving of the red rose either.

my wife of 29 yr is a nurse and seen the NHS brought to its knees by successive Tory and Labour governments. She is no lover of Labour or the Tories either.

i have three kids. Our eldest is a copper in Sheffield Central she is 27 an been a copper 8 years. The problems she tells me of inner cities with benefit culture kids, and immigrants of differing cultures at war with one another because they cannot respect one another's cultures is frightening. They only thing they hate more than one another is the police who they have no respect for. Yet every year there budget gets hit again and again.

my son who is 26 is a class one lorry driver. Now he is a classic target for the UKIP party. But hey he's young and thinks he can change the world by himself. He worked in the prisons for 3 yr and was disgusted to see how cushy prisoners have it. Do you know if your on benefits you can claim traveling expenses for seeing family members in the clink. I,m proud as punch for the both of um.

me youngest, she is 21 this December. We adopted her when she was 2 yr 11 months old. My family have spent more time and money on her,teaching her old fashioned family values it was a complete and utter waste of time ( Nathan if you want a full and frank rundown of her life then al pm you) she has contributed nothing to society. She has a son who is 18 month old, I have seen him 4 times, she is pregnant again with a father of her kids who is looking at spending the next 6-9 yr inside. I could go on. Me and you are paying every single day for the next couple of decades to keep her and her partner in the life of luxury.

the problem is that since I could vote from 1981 I have voted labour, SDLP and liberals last time around and where as it got us.

fortunately or unfortunately the UKIP party have come along, and has already been said, some of there policies hit the nail on the head and others are iffy to say the least.


----------



## Fish (Oct 11, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			Ethan you may well be correct that I am the sort of person they are looking at. But what/who exactly am I.

51 yr old worked in the coal mines for 36 yr til I am made redundant next year. The Tory government has hammered the mining industry. They can apply to the EU for state aid as has Germany, Spain, Czechs, Poland. Etc etc to soften the blow to not just the miners but it's supporting industries. but it chooses not to. So forgive me if I don't wave a Davis Cameron flag.

But hang on a minute, Labour has shut just as many pits as the Tories, yeah but that was 50 yr ago. er no it wasn't. new Labour under That Criminal Tony. Blair did nowt to help me either. So there's no waving of the red rose either.

my wife of 29 yr is a nurse and seen the NHS brought to its knees by successive Tory and Labour governments. She is no lover of Labour or the Tories either.

i have three kids. Our eldest is a copper in Sheffield Central she is 27 an been a copper 8 years. The problems she tells me of inner cities with benefit culture kids, and immigrants of differing cultures at war with one another because they cannot respect one another's cultures is frightening. They only thing they hate more than one another is the police who they have no respect for. Yet every year there budget gets hit again and again.

my son who is 26 is a class one lorry driver. Now he is a classic target for the UKIP party. But hey he's young and thinks he can change the world by himself. He worked in the prisons for 3 yr and was disgusted to see how cushy prisoners have it. Do you know if your on benefits you can claim traveling expenses for seeing family members in the clink. I,m proud as punch for the both of um.

me youngest, she is 21 this December. We adopted her when she was 2 yr 11 months old. My family have spent more time and money on her,teaching her old fashioned family values it was a complete and utter waste of time ( Nathan if you want a full and frank rundown of her life then al pm you) she has contributed nothing to society. She has a son who is 18 month old, I have seen him 4 times, she is pregnant again with a father of her kids who is looking at spending the next 6-9 yr inside. I could go on. Me and you are paying every single day for the next couple of decades to keep her and her partner in the life of luxury.

the problem is that since I could vote from 1981 I have voted labour, SDLP and liberals last time around and where as it got us.

fortunately or unfortunately the UKIP party have come along, and has already been said, some of there policies hit the nail on the head and others are iffy to say the least.
		
Click to expand...

Fair play to you for being so honest and open in making your point, I doff my cap to you sir  :thup:


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 11, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			Ethan you may well be correct that I am the sort of person they are looking at. But what/who exactly am I.

51 yr old worked in the coal mines for 36 yr til I am made redundant next year. The Tory government has hammered the mining industry. They can apply to the EU for state aid as has Germany, Spain, Czechs, Poland. Etc etc to soften the blow to not just the miners but it's supporting industries. but it chooses not to. So forgive me if I don't wave a Davis Cameron flag.

But hang on a minute, Labour has shut just as many pits as the Tories, yeah but that was 50 yr ago. er no it wasn't. new Labour under That Criminal Tony. Blair did nowt to help me either. So there's no waving of the red rose either.

my wife of 29 yr is a nurse and seen the NHS brought to its knees by successive Tory and Labour governments. She is no lover of Labour or the Tories either.

i have three kids. Our eldest is a copper in Sheffield Central she is 27 an been a copper 8 years. The problems she tells me of inner cities with benefit culture kids, and immigrants of differing cultures at war with one another because they cannot respect one another's cultures is frightening. They only thing they hate more than one another is the police who they have no respect for. Yet every year there budget gets hit again and again.

my son who is 26 is a class one lorry driver. Now he is a classic target for the UKIP party. But hey he's young and thinks he can change the world by himself. He worked in the prisons for 3 yr and was disgusted to see how cushy prisoners have it. Do you know if your on benefits you can claim traveling expenses for seeing family members in the clink. I,m proud as punch for the both of um.

me youngest, she is 21 this December. We adopted her when she was 2 yr 11 months old. My family have spent more time and money on her,teaching her old fashioned family values it was a complete and utter waste of time ( Nathan if you want a full and frank rundown of her life then al pm you) she has contributed nothing to society. She has a son who is 18 month old, I have seen him 4 times, she is pregnant again with a father of her kids who is looking at spending the next 6-9 yr inside. I could go on. Me and you are paying every single day for the next couple of decades to keep her and her partner in the life of luxury.

the problem is that since I could vote from 1981 I have voted labour, SDLP and liberals last time around and where as it got us.

fortunately or unfortunately the UKIP party have come along, and has already been said, some of there policies hit the nail on the head and others are iffy to say the least.
		
Click to expand...

Respect for that post 

I will vote for no one because there is no one i trust or agree with

I want there to be a vote on the slip that allows me to show that i vote no one


----------



## Imurg (Oct 11, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Respect for that post 

I will vote for no one because there is no one i trust or agree with

I want there to be a vote on the slip that allows me to show that i vote no one
		
Click to expand...

+1

Been saying this for years.
Why vote for someone/party that you don't agree with purely to say you voted...?

"None of the above" should be the last name on any ballot paper.


----------



## Qwerty (Oct 11, 2014)

Ethan said:



			You, sir, are precisely the sort of person UKIP is targeting. 

I can just see the new slogan "UKIP - the party for people whose IQ is not in three figures (not including decimal places)."
.
		
Click to expand...

To say Thats a low blow is putting it mildly.


----------



## Qwerty (Oct 11, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			Ethan you may well be correct that I am the sort of person they are looking at. But what/who exactly am I.

51 yr old worked in the coal mines for 36 yr til I am made redundant next year. The Tory government has hammered the mining industry. They can apply to the EU for state aid as has Germany, Spain, Czechs, Poland. Etc etc to soften the blow to not just the miners but it's supporting industries. but it chooses not to. So forgive me if I don't wave a Davis Cameron flag.

But hang on a minute, Labour has shut just as many pits as the Tories, yeah but that was 50 yr ago. er no it wasn't. new Labour under That Criminal Tony. Blair did nowt to help me either. So there's no waving of the red rose either.

my wife of 29 yr is a nurse and seen the NHS brought to its knees by successive Tory and Labour governments. She is no lover of Labour or the Tories either.

i have three kids. Our eldest is a copper in Sheffield Central she is 27 an been a copper 8 years. The problems she tells me of inner cities with benefit culture kids, and immigrants of differing cultures at war with one another because they cannot respect one another's cultures is frightening. They only thing they hate more than one another is the police who they have no respect for. Yet every year there budget gets hit again and again.

my son who is 26 is a class one lorry driver. Now he is a classic target for the UKIP party. But hey he's young and thinks he can change the world by himself. He worked in the prisons for 3 yr and was disgusted to see how cushy prisoners have it. Do you know if your on benefits you can claim traveling expenses for seeing family members in the clink. I,m proud as punch for the both of um.

me youngest, she is 21 this December. We adopted her when she was 2 yr 11 months old. My family have spent more time and money on her,teaching her old fashioned family values it was a complete and utter waste of time ( Nathan if you want a full and frank rundown of her life then al pm you) she has contributed nothing to society. She has a son who is 18 month old, I have seen him 4 times, she is pregnant again with a father of her kids who is looking at spending the next 6-9 yr inside. I could go on. Me and you are paying every single day for the next couple of decades to keep her and her partner in the life of luxury.

the problem is that since I could vote from 1981 I have voted labour, SDLP and liberals last time around and where as it got us.

fortunately or unfortunately the UKIP party have come along, and has already been said, some of there policies hit the nail on the head and others are iffy to say the least.
		
Click to expand...

As the others have said, respect your honesty and openness there fella :thup:


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (Oct 11, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			Ethan you may well be correct that I am the sort of person they are looking at. But what/who exactly am I.

51 yr old worked in the coal mines for 36 yr til I am made redundant next year. The Tory government has hammered the mining industry. They can apply to the EU for state aid as has Germany, Spain, Czechs, Poland. Etc etc to soften the blow to not just the miners but it's supporting industries. but it chooses not to. So forgive me if I don't wave a Davis Cameron flag.

But hang on a minute, Labour has shut just as many pits as the Tories, yeah but that was 50 yr ago. er no it wasn't. new Labour under That Criminal Tony. Blair did nowt to help me either. So there's no waving of the red rose either.

my wife of 29 yr is a nurse and seen the NHS brought to its knees by successive Tory and Labour governments. She is no lover of Labour or the Tories either.

i have three kids. Our eldest is a copper in Sheffield Central she is 27 an been a copper 8 years. The problems she tells me of inner cities with benefit culture kids, and immigrants of differing cultures at war with one another because they cannot respect one another's cultures is frightening. They only thing they hate more than one another is the police who they have no respect for. Yet every year there budget gets hit again and again.

my son who is 26 is a class one lorry driver. Now he is a classic target for the UKIP party. But hey he's young and thinks he can change the world by himself. He worked in the prisons for 3 yr and was disgusted to see how cushy prisoners have it. Do you know if your on benefits you can claim traveling expenses for seeing family members in the clink. I,m proud as punch for the both of um.

me youngest, she is 21 this December. We adopted her when she was 2 yr 11 months old. My family have spent more time and money on her,teaching her old fashioned family values it was a complete and utter waste of time ( Nathan if you want a full and frank rundown of her life then al pm you) she has contributed nothing to society. She has a son who is 18 month old, I have seen him 4 times, she is pregnant again with a father of her kids who is looking at spending the next 6-9 yr inside. I could go on. Me and you are paying every single day for the next couple of decades to keep her and her partner in the life of luxury.

the problem is that since I could vote from 1981 I have voted labour, SDLP and liberals last time around and where as it got us.

fortunately or unfortunately the UKIP party have come along, and has already been said, some of there policies hit the nail on the head and others are iffy to say the least.
		
Click to expand...

I like this post :thup:


----------



## MadAdey (Oct 11, 2014)

Ethan said:



			The trouble with facts is that many people do not want to hear facts, they just want to hear what fits their prejudice. Shame on politicians who pander to that, greater shame that almost all of them do.
		
Click to expand...

But this is what political campaigns are all about. People like yourself vote a certain way and always have done, that is not a slur, but a fact as that is how most people vote. So people like yourself, a middle class man, will not be swayed as they do not say anything that interests you. But there is the other side to voting, the ones who do not know who to vote for or the people that are getting to vote for the first time. 

You take a group of people struggling to find work and start filling their heads that it is immigrants taking the jobs away. Natural human instinct is to find someone else to blame so they are slowly getting brainwashed by people like UKIP. They feel that the government are not doing enough to help them, so look for someone to blame and someone to help them, UKIP offer that to them and say what they want to hear. This doesn't mean they have a low IQ, or you could say the same about Labour voters for not voting Conservative. 

People on the fence will vote for the party that say the things they want to hear wether that be labour, conservative or any other party.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 11, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			Ethan you may well be correct that I am the sort of person they are looking at. But what/who exactly am I.

51 yr old worked in the coal mines for 36 yr til I am made redundant next year. The Tory government has hammered the mining industry. They can apply to the EU for state aid as has Germany, Spain, Czechs, Poland. Etc etc to soften the blow to not just the miners but it's supporting industries. but it chooses not to. So forgive me if I don't wave a Davis Cameron flag.

But hang on a minute, Labour has shut just as many pits as the Tories, yeah but that was 50 yr ago. er no it wasn't. new Labour under That Criminal Tony. Blair did nowt to help me either. So there's no waving of the red rose either.

my wife of 29 yr is a nurse and seen the NHS brought to its knees by successive Tory and Labour governments. She is no lover of Labour or the Tories either.

i have three kids. Our eldest is a copper in Sheffield Central she is 27 an been a copper 8 years. The problems she tells me of inner cities with benefit culture kids, and immigrants of differing cultures at war with one another because they cannot respect one another's cultures is frightening. They only thing they hate more than one another is the police who they have no respect for. Yet every year there budget gets hit again and again.

my son who is 26 is a class one lorry driver. Now he is a classic target for the UKIP party. But hey he's young and thinks he can change the world by himself. He worked in the prisons for 3 yr and was disgusted to see how cushy prisoners have it. Do you know if your on benefits you can claim traveling expenses for seeing family members in the clink. I,m proud as punch for the both of um.

me youngest, she is 21 this December. We adopted her when she was 2 yr 11 months old. My family have spent more time and money on her,teaching her old fashioned family values it was a complete and utter waste of time ( Nathan if you want a full and frank rundown of her life then al pm you) she has contributed nothing to society. She has a son who is 18 month old, I have seen him 4 times, she is pregnant again with a father of her kids who is looking at spending the next 6-9 yr inside. I could go on. Me and you are paying every single day for the next couple of decades to keep her and her partner in the life of luxury.

the problem is that since I could vote from 1981 I have voted labour, SDLP and liberals last time around and where as it got us.

fortunately or unfortunately the UKIP party have come along, and has already been said, some of there policies hit the nail on the head and others are iffy to say the least.
		
Click to expand...

I'll tell you who you are!   You're the kind of person this country needs more of and I hope life favours you in the future.


----------



## NWJocko (Oct 11, 2014)

Ethan said:



			You, sir, are precisely the sort of person UKIP is targeting. 

I can just see the new slogan "UKIP - the party for people whose IQ is not in three figures (not including decimal places)."

Carswell has no special insight into HIV, but he has form in homophobia.
		
Click to expand...

Are you as much of a pompous, self important clown in person as you come across on here sometimes?

Being a doctor give you the right to assume intellectual superiority over everyone these days?

Arse.


----------



## jp5 (Oct 12, 2014)

Ethan said:



			You, sir, are precisely the sort of person UKIP is targeting. 

I can just see the new slogan "UKIP - the party for people whose IQ is not in three figures (not including decimal places)."

Carswell has no special insight into HIV, but he has form in homophobia.
		
Click to expand...

This from a moderator on this great forum?


----------



## Old Skier (Oct 12, 2014)

Whatever and whoever they are Mr Farage has just shown on the Sunday Politics that he is not the one to lead them. Not even sure of his own policies.


----------



## FairwayDodger (Oct 12, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Whatever and whoever they are Mr Farage has just shown on the Sunday Politics that he is not the one to lead them. Not even sure of his own policies.
		
Click to expand...

They don't have coherent policies, just old-fashioned rabble-rousing.


----------



## Fish (Oct 12, 2014)

jp5 said:



			This from a moderator on this great forum? 

Click to expand...

Hmm, but their aloud their personal opinion, even if its flaming or derogative towards another forumite but if you dare criticise them its then not personal, its against a moderator, so you lose the fight! 

That's me buggered


----------



## Ethan (Oct 12, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			I guess my UKIP vote and IQ of 134 are at odds with each other. So why am on the very top mark of gifted but voting UKIP?

Without going into reams about illegal wars, expense scandals, u-turns over manifesto promises, irrespective of which party, I want to give the established parties a bloody nose. I want them to be honest and trustworthy. And if giving them a bloody nose makes them sit up and listen to the people, I'm all for it.

Do I want UKIP in power? No. Do I want them in a coalition? No. They have the odd policy that makes some sense, just as all the parties do, but just like the Lib Dems have proven to be they're not good enough for office.

My UKIP vote is a protest vote because I don't trust either the Cons or Labour anymore.
		
Click to expand...

Don't have a go at me, mate. The guy I responded to was the one who made a point about IQ and party affiliation.

134 is good, so I am sure you know that clever people sometimes make bad choices. 

Protest voting tends not to be very successful and only encourages those with whom you choose to protest.


----------



## Fish (Oct 12, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Don't have a go at me, mate. The guy I responded to was the one who made a point about IQ and party affiliation.
		
Click to expand...

Oh, that's OK then


----------



## Ethan (Oct 12, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			Are you as much of a pompous, self important clown in person as you come across on here sometimes?

Being a doctor give you the right to assume intellectual superiority over everyone these days?

Arse.
		
Click to expand...

Well, I assume those who have the power of literacy will see that I was responding directly to a point made by someone else which deplored the political parties whose supporters had three figure IQs. By implication, he was casting UKIP as the party for those that did not. 

I assume you have summoned up an equal share of your self righteous anger and aimed it at them too. Or are you just a hypocrite?


----------



## Fish (Oct 12, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Well, I assume those who have the power of literacy
		
Click to expand...

So, NWJocko is illiterate?


----------



## Ethan (Oct 12, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			Ethan you may well be correct that I am the sort of person they are looking at. But what/who exactly am I.

51 yr old worked in the coal mines for 36 yr til I am made redundant next year. The Tory government has hammered the mining industry. They can apply to the EU for state aid as has Germany, Spain, Czechs, Poland. Etc etc to soften the blow to not just the miners but it's supporting industries. but it chooses not to. So forgive me if I don't wave a Davis Cameron flag.

But hang on a minute, Labour has shut just as many pits as the Tories, yeah but that was 50 yr ago. er no it wasn't. new Labour under That Criminal Tony. Blair did nowt to help me either. So there's no waving of the red rose either.

my wife of 29 yr is a nurse and seen the NHS brought to its knees by successive Tory and Labour governments. She is no lover of Labour or the Tories either.

i have three kids. Our eldest is a copper in Sheffield Central she is 27 an been a copper 8 years. The problems she tells me of inner cities with benefit culture kids, and immigrants of differing cultures at war with one another because they cannot respect one another's cultures is frightening. They only thing they hate more than one another is the police who they have no respect for. Yet every year there budget gets hit again and again.

my son who is 26 is a class one lorry driver. Now he is a classic target for the UKIP party. But hey he's young and thinks he can change the world by himself. He worked in the prisons for 3 yr and was disgusted to see how cushy prisoners have it. Do you know if your on benefits you can claim traveling expenses for seeing family members in the clink. I,m proud as punch for the both of um.

me youngest, she is 21 this December. We adopted her when she was 2 yr 11 months old. My family have spent more time and money on her,teaching her old fashioned family values it was a complete and utter waste of time ( Nathan if you want a full and frank rundown of her life then al pm you) she has contributed nothing to society. She has a son who is 18 month old, I have seen him 4 times, she is pregnant again with a father of her kids who is looking at spending the next 6-9 yr inside. I could go on. Me and you are paying every single day for the next couple of decades to keep her and her partner in the life of luxury.

the problem is that since I could vote from 1981 I have voted labour, SDLP and liberals last time around and where as it got us.

fortunately or unfortunately the UKIP party have come along, and has already been said, some of there policies hit the nail on the head and others are iffy to say the least.
		
Click to expand...


You made the point about the other parties being the parties for 3 figure IQ people. I just reflected that back. Seems a lot here take offence, but strangely they do so with me not you, and in doing so jump to a bunch of false assumptions about me. I have never voted Tory in my life and would only do so to block a more extreme party. I also grew up working class on a council estate. 

The issue with UKIP, as i see it, is that they have a couple of knee jerk (but basically false) ideas that seem to resonate with the people (like the Tea Party in the US), but behind that have a very thin and poorly considered manifesto. It now appears that even Nigel is confused about it, so you can be pretty sure most voters don't know much about it. Their economic policy is nonsensical, for a start. The remarks about HIV are ignorant and uninformed and show the underlying prejudice.

The tragedy now is that the Tories have lurched right to combat them, and in doing so have given the centre ground to Labour, who under Miliband are also out to lunch but now that the Lib Dems have sunk themselves, there isn't anybody else.So UKIP might, in effect, give the election to Labour. I bet that is not the outcome many of their voters wanted. But then many Lib Dem voters at the last election were trying to keep Cameron out, not give him a way in.


----------



## Ethan (Oct 12, 2014)

Fish said:



			So, NWJocko is illiterate?
		
Click to expand...

He either or both of didn't read or didn't understand the post I was responding to before jumping on his high horse.


----------



## guest100718 (Oct 12, 2014)

http://metro.co.uk/2014/10/10/passi...stand-for-in-painful-radio-interview-4900910/


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 12, 2014)

Ethan said:



			You, sir, are precisely the sort of person UKIP is targeting. 

I can just see the new slogan "UKIP - the party for people whose IQ is not in three figures (not including decimal places)."
		
Click to expand...

Settle down Ethan! Your implication wrt Political choice vs Intelligence (in UK) is unworthy of the person I've met and played Golf with and, imo, borders on insulting.

@Tashyboy. You have my sympathy for your predicament. And a demo of Nature vs Nurture?



SocketRocket said:



*I guess you would be happy if the right to vote was a prerequisite of a high IQ*....
		
Click to expand...

You appear to have got your 'logic' arse  about face!


----------



## Hobbit (Oct 12, 2014)

Ethan said:



			134 is good, so I am sure you know that clever people sometimes make bad choices. 

Protest voting tends not to be very successful and only encourages those with whom you choose to protest.
		
Click to expand...

Is your first point a thinly veiled  dig at my 'intelligent' voting, or just plain clumsy? 

Protest voting makes other parties change their policies to encourage the lost voters to return. Let's face it, many people switch allegiance at every election.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 12, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			You appear to have got your 'logic' arse  about face!
		
Click to expand...

So I did, well spotted.  Never had both brain cells kicked in when I wrote that


----------



## Ethan (Oct 12, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Settle down Ethan! Your implication wrt Political choice vs Intelligence (in UK) is unworthy of the person I've met and played Golf with and, imo, borders on insulting.
		
Click to expand...

Foxy

I was imply reflecting back an opposite implication made by the OP. If he criticises the usual parties for their 3 figure IQ voters, it must follow that UKIP's alternative appeal is aimed at others.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 12, 2014)

I find it slightly amusing how it's being suggested that so many voters are not intelligent enough to make an informed decision when voting.   Many people tend to vote for parties that represent their traditional social beliefs, or, because they experience issues they don't like and look for a party that promotes policies to address these issues.   In the case of UKIP the issues so many people are dissatisfied with are:

The very high rates of immigration experienced in the last decade and the way they perceive this eroding the fabric of their culture, the impact on social services, housing, the NHS and education.

The something for nothing culture where the lazy and feckless are almost encouraged to live their lives on the backs of hard working people.   They see  no relationship between contributions to social security and the entitlement to it.

They are not happy with the way the EU has morphed from being a trading entity into an overpowering bureaucracy that is not working in the National interest.

Whether they are genuine concerns or the bleating of the great unwashed is a matter of opinion but non the less a reality.   I would suggest the major parties do something to address these concerns pretty quick or we could really see UKIP with the balance of power next year.


----------



## Tashyboy (Oct 12, 2014)

Your right Nathan I did mention a three figure iq but it was in reference to a point jampal made earlier on in the blog. I referenced him you referenced me. No harm done. Nice to see the blog back on topic.ne:


----------



## Old Skier (Oct 12, 2014)

As long as people vote I'm not overly concerned with who they choose to vote for. If those that feel they want a "non of the above" which will never happen perhaps they - and all of those unhappy with the current state of affairs should go for a true Independent.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 12, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			As long as people vote I'm not overly concerned with who they choose to vote for. If those that feel they want a "non of the above" which will never happen perhaps they - and all of those unhappy with the current state of affairs should go for a true Independent.
		
Click to expand...

I agree its best people do vote.  Maybe it should be a legal requirement like in Australia and you should have the option to tick 'None of the Above'


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 12, 2014)

No one shuld be "forced" into voting for someone they dont agree with or trust 

ill vote on the day i find someone or a party like that or they have the none of the above option


----------



## NWJocko (Oct 12, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Well, I assume those who have the power of literacy will see that I was responding directly to a point made by someone else which deplored the political parties whose supporters had three figure IQs. By implication, he was casting UKIP as the party for those that did
		
Click to expand...

You're first sentence answers my questions quite succinctly I think, thanks :thup:

I'm not self righteous, my default position just differs from yours in that I don't assume I am more intelligent than others before knowing them or that it makes my opinions any more relevant.

Re the concern about my literacy it is appreciated, thank you. Hasn't harmed me getting an education, career, good salary etc so I'm doing ok ta.

Toodle pip.


----------



## Old Skier (Oct 12, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No one shuld be "forced" into voting for someone they dont agree with or trust 

ill vote on the day i find someone or a party like that or they have the none of the above option
		
Click to expand...

That is yours and many others view and you are at present entitled to it, however when I'm PM I will be adopting the Australian system.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 12, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			That is yours and many others view and you are at present entitled to it, however when I'm PM I will be adopting the Australian system.
		
Click to expand...

And then ill spoil the paper :thup:


----------



## El Bandito (Oct 12, 2014)

I'm not sure if UKIP is the change, or a symptom of the change. The neverendum and the 'rise of UKIP' do seem to indicate an electorate that is very disaffected.

will UKIP amend itself, get some policy together? I doubt it, but if they can get some money into an infrastructure...well who knows?


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 12, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And then ill spoil the paper :thup:
		
Click to expand...

And break the law.   Surely 'None of the above' should be enough of a protest.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 12, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			And break the law.   Surely 'None of the above' should be enough of a protest.
		
Click to expand...

Only if its an option


----------



## JamPal (Oct 15, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			Are you as much of a pompous, self important clown in person as you come across on here sometimes?

Being a doctor give you the right to assume intellectual superiority over everyone these days?

Arse.
		
Click to expand...

He's right though, UKIP is for the easily fooled.

Everyone says "Oh but what about the Tories and Labour, what about the Lib Dems, they are all the same, no this time we need change, so I am voting UKIP".

If you think UKIP are any different at all, then you mark yourself out as having a low IQ. A Wealthy toff, taking money from the EU, not working for a living, swanning about offering blame instead of policies, that's different is it? Get a fekking grip.

The nasty piece of work is laughing all the way to the bank with OUR money. And it's the moron voters that backed him we have to thank.


----------



## NWJocko (Oct 15, 2014)

JamPal said:



			He's right though, UKIP is for the easily fooled.

Everyone says "Oh but what about the Tories and Labour, what about the Lib Dems, they are all the same, no this time we need change, so I am voting UKIP".

If you think UKIP are any different at all, then you mark yourself out as having a low IQ. A Wealthy toff, taking money from the EU, not working for a living, swanning about offering blame instead of policies, that's different is it? Get a fekking grip.

The nasty piece of work is laughing all the way to the bank with OUR money. And it's the moron voters that backed him we have to thank.
		
Click to expand...

Actually, he isn't right. Unless you can provide evidence that all UKIP followers (of which I'm not one for what it's worth) have a "low IQ".  I have no idea what reasons people have for supporting UKIP but don't assume that they are of low intelligence purely for doing so.

You feel free to assume away if it makes you feel better, probably says more about you than them though :thup:


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2014)

JamPal said:



			He's right though, UKIP is for the easily fooled.

Everyone says "Oh but what about the Tories and Labour, what about the Lib Dems, they are all the same, no this time we need change, so I am voting UKIP".

If you think UKIP are any different at all, then you mark yourself out as having a low IQ. A Wealthy toff, taking money from the EU, not working for a living, swanning about offering blame instead of policies, that's different is it? Get a fekking grip.

The nasty piece of work is laughing all the way to the bank with OUR money. And it's the moron voters that backed him we have to thank.
		
Click to expand...

Thank for your expert opinion on UKIP and the gullibility of it's voters.  I guess if your good-self and Ethan believe this then who are we, the great unwashed to believe otherwise.

As someone with a brain cell deficiency, can you please explain to me how voting for Labour would be a more intelligent decision and if the aforementioned party get into Government how their policies will improve the countries and indeed my lot?

I look forward to further enlightenment.


----------



## bluewolf (Oct 15, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			Actually, he isn't right. Unless you can provide evidence that all UKIP followers (of which I'm not one for what it's worth) have a "low IQ".  I have no idea what reasons people have for supporting UKIP but don't assume that they are of low intelligence purely for doing so.

You feel free to assume away if it makes you feel better, probably says more about you than them though :thup:
		
Click to expand...

Agreed.. However, it's put me on the same side of the discussion as Socketrocket... So I'm gonna have to go and self-flagellate on the lawn for an hour now...



SocketRocket said:



			Thank for your expert opinion on UKIP and the gullibility of it's voters.  I guess if your good-self and Ethan believe this then who are we, the great unwashed to believe otherwise.

As someone with a brain cell deficiency, can you please explain to me how voting for Labour would be a more intelligent decision and if the aforementioned party get into Government how their policies will improve the countries and indeed my lot?

I look forward to further enlightenment.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## FairwayDodger (Oct 15, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Thank for your expert opinion on UKIP and the gullibility of it's voters.  I guess if your good-self and Ethan believe this then who are we, the great unwashed to believe otherwise.

As someone with a brain cell deficiency, can you please explain to me how voting for Labour would be a more intelligent decision and if the aforementioned party get into Government how their policies will improve the countries and indeed my lot?

I look forward to further enlightenment.
		
Click to expand...

Whether you agree with them or not, Labour and Conservative have a coherent set of well-planned and (generally) costed policies. UKIP do not, they have a lot of emotion and soundbites, they hate the EU and the gays but steadfastly fail to explain what their actual policies are. Their leader even claimed not to have read their manifesto at the last election.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Oct 15, 2014)

Taken from Psychology Today, a must read for the professionally argumentative like myself.

 Some scholars (for example Stankov, 2009) have argued that conservative political ideologies tend to be associated with lower intelligence on average. Conservatives generally value tradition, respect for authority, and social order, and tend to be leery of innovation and change. These scholars have argued that such values tend to be associated with cognitive rigidity and may therefore appeal to people who have difficulty with intellectual challenges that require them to process novel information. In support of this, Stankov (2009) cited evidence that people with more conservative views tend to score lower on IQ tests and to have lower levels of education.

An alternative theory, originally proposed by Hans Eysenck, is that higher intelligence is associated with avoidance of extreme political views in general. Hence, more intelligent people are thought to be moderate/centrist in their political views. The argument is that more extreme views, whether right-wing or left-wing, tend to be associated with dogmatism and rigidity, which are more appealing to less intelligent people. A recent proponent of this view is Rinderman who argued that more intelligent people tend to have civic values that lead them to support political systems they believe will foster education and the growth of knowledge (Rindermann, Flores-Mendoza, & Woodley, 2012). Hence, according to this view, intelligent people tend to believe that moderate/centrist parties are more likely to promote their particular social interests compared to more clearly left or right parties. In support of this, Rinderman et al. cite findings from Great Britain and Brazil showing that people who expressed support for centrist parties (including centre-right and centre-left) had higher average IQâ€™s compared to those who supported more clearly left or right parties.

So after using deliberately selective quotes from a long article I've proved UKIP voters are thick.  Also one could argue if you replace the word conservatives with 'most golfers' in on the second line it would explain a lot 

Nice one Hacker, insult everyone on this forum, well done, some of my best friends are golfers, well thank you, it's not a problem, same time next week.....


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Taken from Psychology Today, a must read for the professionally argumentative like myself.

 Some scholars (for example Stankov, 2009) have argued that conservative political ideologies tend to be associated with lower intelligence on average. Conservatives generally value tradition, respect for authority, and social order, and tend to be leery of innovation and change. These scholars have argued that such values tend to be associated with cognitive rigidity and may therefore appeal to people who have difficulty with intellectual challenges that require them to process novel information. In support of this, Stankov (2009) cited evidence that people with more conservative views tend to score lower on IQ tests and to have lower levels of education.

An alternative theory, originally proposed by Hans Eysenck, is that higher intelligence is associated with avoidance of extreme political views in general. Hence, more intelligent people are thought to be moderate/centrist in their political views. The argument is that more extreme views, whether right-wing or left-wing, tend to be associated with dogmatism and rigidity, which are more appealing to less intelligent people. A recent proponent of this view is Rinderman who argued that more intelligent people tend to have civic values that lead them to support political systems they believe will foster education and the growth of knowledge (Rindermann, Flores-Mendoza, & Woodley, 2012). Hence, according to this view, intelligent people tend to believe that moderate/centrist parties are more likely to promote their particular social interests compared to more clearly left or right parties. In support of this, Rinderman et al. cite findings from Great Britain and Brazil showing that people who expressed support for centrist parties (including centre-right and centre-left) had higher average IQâ€™s compared to those who supported more clearly left or right parties.

Ergo UKIP voters are thick.  Also one could argue if you replace the word conservatives with 'most golfers' in on the second line it would explain a lot 

Nice one Hacker, insult everyone on this forum, well done, some of my best friends are golfers, well thank you, it's not a problem, same time next week.....
		
Click to expand...

Well, what can I say to that!   If  Flores-Mendoza, & Woodley say I'm thick then I must be.    What do they say about 'Monster Raving Looney Party' voters as I am coming round to their policies.  Also so as I can stop 'Bluewolf' going blind


----------



## Hacker Khan (Oct 15, 2014)

Also to selectively quote my favourite paper The Daily Mail

So right-wingers are stupid â€“ itâ€™s official. Psychologists in Canada have compared IQ scores of several thousand British children, who were born in 1958 and 1970, with their stated views as adults on things such as treatment of criminals and openness to working with or living near to people of other races. They also looked at some US data which compared IQ scores with homophobic attitudes.

The conclusion: your intelligence as a child correlates strongly with socially liberal views. People with low IQs tend to be more in favour of harsh punishments, more homophobic and more likely to be racist. Interestingly, as these were IQ scores measured when young this does seem to be a measure of something innate, not merely exposure to â€˜liberalâ€™ views through education. 

The inference is that what we call conservatism is a symptom of limited intellectual ability, signified by fear of the new and of outsiders, a retreat into tradition and tribal loyalty, and an unsophisticated disgust at sexual mores that deviate even slightly from the norm. Put bluntly stupidity correlates with insecurity*, hatred, pessimism and fear*, intelligence with confidence, optimism and trust.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...-depends-define-left-right.html#ixzz3GDodVKiP 

And to be honest fostering insecurity, hatred, pessimism and fear is practically the UKIP manifesto.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Also to selectively quote my favourite paper The Daily Mail

So right-wingers are stupid â€“ itâ€™s official. Psychologists in Canada have compared IQ scores of several thousand British children, who were born in 1958 and 1970, with their stated views as adults on things such as treatment of criminals and openness to working with or living near to people of other races. They also looked at some US data which compared IQ scores with homophobic attitudes.

The conclusion: your intelligence as a child correlates strongly with socially liberal views. People with low IQs tend to be more in favour of harsh punishments, more homophobic and more likely to be racist. Interestingly, as these were IQ scores measured when young this does seem to be a measure of something innate, not merely exposure to â€˜liberalâ€™ views through education. 

The inference is that what we call conservatism is a symptom of limited intellectual ability, signified by fear of the new and of outsiders, a retreat into tradition and tribal loyalty, and an unsophisticated disgust at sexual mores that deviate even slightly from the norm. Put bluntly stupidity correlates with i*nsecurity, hatred, pessimism and fear*, intelligence with confidence, optimism and trust.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...-depends-define-left-right.html#ixzz3GDodVKiP 

And to be honest i*nsecurity, hatred, pessimism and fear *is practically the UKIP manifesto.

Click to expand...

I'll set the dogs on you if you come around my patch with your perverted limp wristed moderate views.


----------



## bluewolf (Oct 15, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Well, what can I say to that!   If  Flores-Mendoza, & Woodley say I'm thick then I must be.    What do they say about 'Monster Raving Looney Party' voters as I am coming round to their policies.  Also so as I can stop 'Bluewolf' going blind 

Click to expand...

Lol. I'm wondering whether to explain that self-flagellation will not make you go blind, but then again, I'm not the one who thinks that you're thick &#128521;


----------



## Tashyboy (Oct 15, 2014)

Jampal you may well have  a point but seeing as you questioned the Tory intelligance in the body found blog

Quote
Liberal Elite? You mean intelligent people... surely you are not referring to the Tory government?


And then suggested. Tony Blair be ripped apart by chimpanzees in the Tony Blair Blog.

im not sure that your comment re UKIPs intelligent supporters carry much weight.


----------



## Crazyface (Oct 15, 2014)

wel I thunk thaat you kip r reely grate and niijel farraj is a reely gud blok an wil wiin the next elecshun. So ner


----------



## Tashyboy (Oct 15, 2014)

Crazyface said:



			wel I thunk thaat you kip r reely grate and niijel farraj is a reely gud blok an wil wiin the next elecshun. So ner
		
Click to expand...

Quality:fore:


----------



## Hacker Khan (Oct 15, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Well, what can I say to that!   If  Flores-Mendoza, & Woodley say I'm thick then I must be.    *What do they say about 'Monster Raving Looney Party' voters as I am coming round to their policies.*  Also so as I can stop 'Bluewolf' going blind 

Click to expand...

To be honest some of them are as well thought out and costed as UKIP's, so probably a wise choice. So see how you get on here 

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/whose-policy-ukip-or-monster-raving-loony-party#plmw79


----------



## MadAdey (Oct 15, 2014)

JamPal said:



			He's right though, UKIP is for the easily fooled.

Everyone says "Oh but what about the Tories and Labour, what about the Lib Dems, they are all the same, no this time we need change, so I am voting UKIP".

If you think UKIP are any different at all, then you mark yourself out as having a low IQ. A Wealthy toff, taking money from the EU, not working for a living, swanning about offering blame instead of policies, that's different is it? Get a fekking grip.

The nasty piece of work is laughing all the way to the bank with OUR money. And it's the moron voters that backed him we have to thank.
		
Click to expand...

Posts like this one make me wonder who the person with low intelligence is. People like you really do not see what certain members of the voting population want, UKIP have and are planning on exploiting them.

You have hard working people out there who fight daily to make ends meet. They see immigrants coming in who have never paid a penny into the system getting given housing and handouts. There are people who have been sat on housing waiting lists for months seeing immigrants turn up and get given one immediately. They see immigrants causing trouble and getting arrested. 

Now this has been going on under Conservative and Labour governments, so there are people out there who feel the government is letting them down. But along comes a Knight in shining armour going by the name of UKIP, promising to stop immigration and give british jobs to british people. Kick out any immigrants who do not tow the line and put any that turn up at our borders in detention centres. 

We all know this UKIP party is a load of crap, but people are going to vote for them out of protest, or because they see them as an answer to put the Great back in Britain. Does that make them people of low intelligence? No it just makes them desperate people looking for an answer to make life better, or just because they want to stick one up the main parties arses........


----------



## ColchesterFC (Oct 15, 2014)

Lots of different posts about different groups of voters having low IQ's. Is this thread going to go down the same lines as the "How far do you hit the ball ones"? 

I'll start us off. My forum IQ is 368 and I hit a 7 iron 320 yards (uphill into a 3 club wind).


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 15, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			And break the law.   Surely 'None of the above' should be enough of a protest.
		
Click to expand...

Eh? The Australian system allows for 'spoilt' or 'informal' votes. Nothing illegal about doing so!

And how could the counters determine for certain which was a deliberately spoilt return and which was accidental!

'None of the Above' would be far too tempting to actually have on the paper and would likely win most votes! Can you imagine the popularity of the 'None of the Above' Party? Led by Max Headroom?!



MadAdey said:



			There are people who have been sat on housing waiting lists for months seeing immigrants turn up and get given one immediately.
		
Click to expand...

There are many reports/studies/investigations that show that this simply does not happen!

There are, however, several Newspapers that encourage the belief that it does!

Here's one of the reports http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/...sing_allocation_and_immigrant_communities.pdf

It also points out the public perception/media influence issue!


----------



## MadAdey (Oct 15, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			There are many reports/studies/investigations that show that this simply does not happen!

There are, however, several Newspapers that encourage the belief that it does!

Here's one of the reports http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/...sing_allocation_and_immigrant_communities.pdf

It also points out the public perception/media influence issue!
		
Click to expand...

Like you foxy, I known that it is a load of old crap, but there are plenty of people out there that don't. I'm just trying to point out how UKIP are trying influence voters. It isn't because they have a low IQ, they have seen and read too much about this subject and find themself believing that UKIP have the answers.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			To be honest some of them are as well thought out and costed as UKIP's, so probably a wise choice. So see how you get on here 

http://www.buzzfeed.com/jimwaterson/whose-policy-ukip-or-monster-raving-loony-party#plmw79

Click to expand...

I would point out to you that you can use your best friend Mr Google to find articles on Tinternet to support any argument.   Regarding the study showing a relationship between the politics of the right and low intellect I would refer you to the following thread that puts such study into a different context:
http://wmbriggs.com/blog/?p=5118

@MadAdy's point that a great number of people feel let down by the last few governments and have had enough of the imposed changes to their communities and culture.   Traditionally when such things happen (or are even perceived to be happening as the high IQ corner on the forum seem to believe) people will look to the right for a solution.  If it is in fact a problem of low IQ that is making such large numbers of the electorate vote UKIP then why were they not all voting BNP previously? 

Some are blessed with more intelligence than others, or is it a blessing?  Who knows!    One thing I know with my minimal brain cells (and I have a lot of letters after my name) is that there are many academics who have very low levels of common sense and people with comparatively lower IQs that have lots of it.


----------



## cookelad (Oct 15, 2014)

I suspect they'll pick up around 3 or 4 seats come may, not enough to make a real difference but hopefully enough to make the big 2 and a bit pay attention realise, along with the 45% of those North of the border that voted yes a few weeks ago, that there are a lot of disgruntled people they're supposed to be representing!


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Oct 15, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Lol. I'm wondering whether to explain that self-flagellation will not make you go blind, but then again, I'm not the one who thinks that you're thick &#128521;
		
Click to expand...


I was going to explain to Socket, the difference between Flagellation, necrophilia and bestiality, but then I figured that I'd just be flogging a dead Horse

so I didn't bother.


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 15, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Like you foxy, I known that it is a load of old crap, but there are plenty of people out there that don't.
		
Click to expand...

This is the main reason why I detest rags like the Daily Mail that warps its reporting to pander to the prejudices of its, easily led, readers! The scary thing is that the DM is the 'newspaper' with the highest circulation! Propaganda is what it really is!

I come from a background where there were really no Daily Nationals - mainly because of logistics. The City based papers could not afford to really favour one side (left/right) over the other so actually reported/published pretty neutrally or 'both-sidedly' - allowing readers to make their own minds up! I far prefer that approach! I refuse to be told what to think - and am seriously suspicious of the motives of anybody (or any body) that attempts to do so!


----------



## bluewolf (Oct 15, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I was going to explain to Socket, the difference between Flagellation, necrophilia and bestiality, but then I figured that I'd just be flogging a dead Horse

so I didn't bother. 

Click to expand...

thats actually quite brilliant. You can tell you're not a UKIP voter


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2014)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I was going to explain to Socket, the difference between Flagellation, necrophilia and bestiality, but then I figured that I'd just be flogging a dead Horse

so I didn't bother. 

Click to expand...

Take a bow :thup:

That's very clever  - you must vote Labour


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			There are many reports/studies/investigations that show that this simply does not happen!

There are, however, several Newspapers that encourage the belief that it does!

Here's one of the reports http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/...sing_allocation_and_immigrant_communities.pdf

It also points out the public perception/media influence issue!
		
Click to expand...

There are also reports/studies/investigations that say it does.   One of the grey areas in some of these reports are that many people that have immigrated into the Uk have become British Citizens and been given social housing.  These reports tend to miss these people out so give a false impression.


Here is another view:

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/7.15


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Lol. I'm wondering whether to explain that self-flagellation will not make you go blind, but then again, I'm not the one who thinks that you're thick &#128521;
		
Click to expand...

Surely it depends on what is flagellated!  I thought he may be sticking pins in his eyes


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			This is the main reason why I detest rags like the Daily Mail that warps its reporting to pander to the prejudices of its, easily led, readers!* The scary thing is that the DM is the 'newspaper' with the highest circulation*! Propaganda is what it really is!

I come from a background where there were really no Daily Nationals - mainly because of logistics. The City based papers could not afford to really favour one side (left/right) over the other so actually reported/published pretty neutrally or 'both-sidedly' - allowing readers to make their own minds up! I far prefer that approach! I refuse to be told what to think - and am seriously suspicious of the motives of anybody (or any body) that attempts to do so!
		
Click to expand...

No it's not!


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 15, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			There are also reports/studies/investigations that say it does.   One of the grey areas in some of these reports are that many people that have immigrated into the Uk have become British Citizens and been given social housing.  These reports tend to miss these people out so give a false impression.


Here is another view:

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/7.15

Click to expand...

Where in that article does it say that immigrants have been given *priority* over locals?!


----------



## Ethan (Oct 15, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			There are also reports/studies/investigations that say it does.   One of the grey areas in some of these reports are that many people that have immigrated into the Uk have become British Citizens and been given social housing.  These reports tend to miss these people out so give a false impression.


Here is another view:

http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/7.15

Click to expand...

Where do you stand on tax dodging non-doms?


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Where in that article does it say that immigrants have been given *priority* over locals?!
		
Click to expand...

By implication it suggests through the size of the waiting lists that many people that were born and grew up in the UK have not been allocated properties due to the number of people obtaining accommodation that came from overseas.


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 15, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			By implication it suggests through the size of the waiting lists that many people that were born and grew up in the UK have not been allocated properties due to the number of people obtaining accommodation that came from overseas.
		
Click to expand...

Not good enough! 

Does it say Immigrants get priority over born/breds? Yes or No!


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Where do you stand on tax dodging non-doms?
		
Click to expand...

Why do you ask?


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Not good enough! 

Does it say Immigrants get priority over born/breds? Yes or No!
		
Click to expand...

Where did I say that?  I suggested it said there were grey areas where data was not correctly collected.   I believe Adey suggested that.


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 15, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Where did I say it did?
		
Click to expand...

That wasn't my question. Please answer it.
I repeat, Does that report say Immigrants get priority over born/breds - Yes or No?!

Perhaps you could come up with one of the 'many' that you state, that actually does state, with evidence, that they do!

And I think Ethan was refering to Viscount Rothermere - Chairman and majority shareholder of the Daily Mail who is a non-dom. I've no real problem with anyone using that legal facility. But it's total hypocrisy if the DM then harangues other legitimate UK tax reducing people or organisations!


----------



## Ethan (Oct 15, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Why do you ask?
		
Click to expand...

I am sure you know perfectly well. 

As someone who appears to value Britishness and people paying their due, I expect there is a special loathing in your heart for those wealthy people who repudiate their citizenship for the sole purpose of dodging making a contribution to the country in which they were born and live.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			That wasn't my question. Please answer it.
I repeat, Does that report say Immigrants get priority over born/breds - Yes or No?!

Perhaps you could come up with one of the 'many' that you state, that actually does state, with evidence, that they do!

And I think Ethan was refering to Viscount Rothermere - Chairman and majority shareholder of the Daily Mail who is a non-dom. I've no real problem with anyone using that legal facility. But it's total hypocrisy if the DM then harangues other legitimate UK tax reducing people or organisations!
		
Click to expand...


Regarding the article, I repeat for the last time!   I never said it did.    I will not reply to this again.

Regarding other reports that do, there are a number on the net so go look it up on Google, you seem to do that on just about everything else.  And for the record I have not indicated I agree with them.

Regarding Ethan .   He can speak for himself.


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 15, 2014)

Ethan said:



			I am sure you know perfectly well. 

As someone who appears to value Britishness and people paying their due, I expect there is a special loathing in your heart for those wealthy people who repudiate their citizenship for the sole purpose of dodging making a contribution to the country in which they were born and *live*.
		
Click to expand...

Can only do that for 90 days of a year - including any part of a day (travelling).

That's what non-domiciled means after all - not living here.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2014)

Ethan said:



			I am sure you know perfectly well. 

As someone who appears to value Britishness and people paying their due, I expect there is a special loathing in your heart for those wealthy people who repudiate their citizenship for the sole purpose of dodging making a contribution to the country in which they were born and live.
		
Click to expand...

I am not aware of that being a part of this conversation and have no particular interest in the subject.   If you want to discuss it then start up another thread.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Oct 15, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I would point out to you that you can use your best friend Mr Google to find articles on Tinternet to support any argument.   Regarding the study showing a relationship between the politics of the right and low intellect I would refer you to the following thread that puts such study into a different context:
http://wmbriggs.com/blog/?p=5118

@MadAdy's point that a great number of people feel let down by the last few governments and have had enough of the imposed changes to their communities and culture.   Traditionally when such things happen (or are even perceived to be happening as the high IQ corner on the forum seem to believe) people will look to the right for a solution.  If it is in fact a problem of low IQ that is making such large numbers of the electorate vote UKIP then why were they not all voting BNP previously? 

Some are blessed with more intelligence than others, or is it a blessing?  Who knows!    One thing I know with my minimal brain cells (and I have a lot of letters after my name) is that there are many academics who have very low levels of common sense and people with comparatively lower IQs that have lots of it.
		
Click to expand...

I'd agree that you can get stats to prove anything, then you can get someone to prove that the stats you used to prove anything are not correct and actually prove nothing. Then no doubt you can get someone to prove that person is wrong.  

In my role as a school governor I read an article the other day from a statistician saying that the main set of stats used to monitor schools are actually completely statistically flawed, and they are dangerous to use. And just about every school and governing body does use them.  I did not actually understand a word of the article as it was deep stats (possibly I'm thick then ) but it was a bit worrying.

And much as I despise UKIP I think they have been politically clever and are riding the crest of a swing to the right across most of Europe.  And have also got a bit lucky with my favorite The Daily Mail, plus other papers at times.  As without wanting to argue about the rights and wrongs, it does act as a bit of a recruitment campaign for UKIP at times.  

But hey, the public gets what the public wants, so let's see how it turns out at the election.  And if UKIP get lots of seats maybe I'll just go underground.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			I'd agree that you can get stats to prove anything, then you can get someone to prove that the stats you used to prove anything are not correct and actually prove nothing. Then no doubt you can get someone to prove that person is wrong.  

In my role as a school governor I read an article the other day from a statistician saying that the main set of stats used to monitor schools are actually completely statistically flawed, and they are dangerous to use. And just about every school and governing body does use them.  I did not actually understand a word of the article as it was deep stats (possibly I'm thick then ) but it was a bit worrying.

And much as I despise UKIP I think they have been politically clever and are riding the crest of a swing to the right across most of Europe.  And have also got a bit lucky with my favorite The Daily Mail, plus other papers at times.  As without wanting to argue about the rights and wrongs, it does act as a bit of a recruitment campaign for UKIP at times.  

But hey, the public gets what the public wants, so let's see how it turns out at the election.  And if UKIP get lots of seats maybe I'll just go underground.
		
Click to expand...

Thats correct, time will tell.   We get the Government we deserve.


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 15, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Regarding the article, I repeat for the last time!   I never said it did.    I will not reply to this again.

Regarding other reports that do, there are a number on the net so go look it up on Google, you seem to do that on just about everything else.  And for the record I have not indicated I agree with them.

Regarding Ethan .   He can speak for himself.
		
Click to expand...

So you won't answer a simple question (we both know the answer!), but still say there are 'a number' that do show priority is given to immigrants, but aren't prepared to supply any links! Seems classic Daily Mail 'journalist' style to me! Certainly not a reliable argument, just propaganda!

Oh and make a CYA statement about not necessarily agreeing with them anyway! 

Maybe you consider such statements propaganda too!

@Hacker You disappoint me! A far too reasonable (and reasoned) point of view! :rofl: The report I linked to was, however, one from a fairly authoritative body that had access to much more of the individual details than one that merely uses numbers.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			So you won't answer a simple question (we both know the answer!), but still say there are 'a number' that do show priority is given to immigrants, but aren't prepared to supply any links! Seems classic Daily Mail 'journalist' style to me! Certainly not a reliable argument, just propaganda!

Oh and make a CYA statement about not necessarily agreeing with them anyway! 

Maybe you consider such statements propaganda too!
		
Click to expand...

Groan!   How about the BBC

[video=youtube;QwMe4YBcE0o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwMe4YBcE0o[/video]


----------



## Old Skier (Oct 15, 2014)




----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2014)

Old Skier said:



View attachment 12607

Click to expand...



It's a clash of the unmovable forces 

Thankfully UKIP will wither away after the next election


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 15, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Groan!   How about the BBC
		
Click to expand...

Where in that, four and a half year old, report does it *show any evidence* that immigrants per se - as opposed to more needy ( e.g. homeless) - get priority?!

That Somalian family - of 7 in a 1 bedroom place - indicates quite the opposite!


----------



## Ethan (Oct 15, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I am not aware of that being a part of this conversation and have no particular interest in the subject.   If you want to discuss it then start up another thread.
		
Click to expand...

I see you are a true loyal Daily Wail reader, only interested in their tired old rhetoric and completely unconcerned with hypocrisy. 

You whine about a welfare seeker or immigrant who gets Â£50 off the Govt but have no concern about a billionaire born in the UK who avoids paying tax in this country by claiming non-dom status and denying his UK citizenship.

For other readers, this refers to Jonathan Harmsworth, aka Viscount Rothermere, owner of the Daily Wail, who claims non-com status and the Daily Wail group avoids tax by channeling revenue through a chain of offshore companies so pays virtually no UK tax. Truly the paper for patriotic hypocrites.


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 15, 2014)

Ethan said:



			I see you are a true loyal Daily Wail reader, only interested in their tired old rhetoric and completely unconcerned with hypocrisy. 
...
		
Click to expand...

I'd pick more Torygraph - there's some subtlety I'd not naturally associate with DM-ers!

His Wife probably prefers the Mail though!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2014)

Seems a recent trend is judging people by what paper they read 

What is someone who doesn't read papers or just read the sports of the gossip etc etc blah blah 

What next - judging people on what telly channel they watch or the colour of their socks or their hair or if they are l eft handed etc etc 

Quite pathetic really isn't it


----------



## Ethan (Oct 15, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Seems a recent trend is judging people by what paper they read 

What is someone who doesn't read papers or just read the sports of the gossip etc etc blah blah 

What next - judging people on what telly channel they watch or the colour of their socks or their hair or if they are l eft handed etc etc 

Quite pathetic really isn't it
		
Click to expand...

Oh, it isn't just what paper he reads. But the paper that people read does say something about their attitude and preferences. 

Socks, not so much. 

Left handedness or hair colour, not really.


----------



## c1973 (Oct 15, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Oh, it isn't just what paper he reads. But the paper that people read does say something about their attitude and preferences. 

Socks, not so much. 

Left handedness or *hair colour*, not really.
		
Click to expand...

Well, with the exception of gingers obviously, because they have no souls and the over freckly ones are creepy bar stewards!


----------



## Old Skier (Oct 15, 2014)

c1973 said:



			Well, with the exception of gingers obviously, because they have no souls and the over freckly ones are creepy bar stewards! 

Click to expand...

I could link you to a ginger thread which could change your mind


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2014)

c1973 said:



			Well, with the exception of gingers obviously, because they have no souls and the over freckly ones are creepy bar stewards! 

Click to expand...

They are just a step below left handed golfers - believe only one of each should be allowed membership of a golf club


----------



## c1973 (Oct 15, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			I could link you to a ginger thread which could change your mind 

Click to expand...

I've probably seen it........for research obviously.


----------



## c1973 (Oct 15, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They are just a step below left handed golfers - believe only one of each should be allowed membership of a golf club 

Click to expand...

The left handed ginger match play trophy, the only board comp you don't want to win!


----------



## Old Skier (Oct 15, 2014)

Second most popular paper getting a bit of a slagging. Must be a few sad guardian readers about.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...m_by_circulation#Circulations_2010_to_present


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2014)

c1973 said:



			The left handed ginger match play trophy, the only board comp you don't want to win! 

Click to expand...


But thankfully the board for that is in the disabled toilet above the throne


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 15, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Second most popular paper getting a bit of a slagging. Must be a few sad guardian readers about.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...m_by_circulation#Circulations_2010_to_present

Click to expand...


Popularity doesnt automatically mean quality - look at the disgusting rag at the top of the list


----------



## Old Skier (Oct 15, 2014)

Looking at the figures, apart from the boobs and bum brigade only Tory's have the required intelligence to read the morning paper


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 15, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Second most popular paper getting a bit of a slagging. Must be a few sad guardian readers about.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...m_by_circulation#Circulations_2010_to_present

Click to expand...

Oh yes! Forgot that other bastion of tolerance when I stated (wrongly) that DM was #1!


----------



## Ethan (Oct 15, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Looking at the figures, apart from the boobs and bum brigade only Tory's have the required intelligence to read the morning paper 

Click to expand...

Or

Only Tories are still stuck in the 20th century, or in some cases, the 19th. The trendy lefties read the Grauniad on their iPads.


----------



## Old Skier (Oct 15, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Or

Only Tories are still stuck in the 20th century, or in some cases, the 19th. The trendy lefties read the Grauniad on their iPads.
		
Click to expand...

There are trendy lefties. When did that happen.

As the readership of papers are so low, anyone that decides what politics any particular reader must be barking anyway.


----------



## PhilTheFragger (Oct 15, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Or

Only Tories are still stuck in the 20th century, or in some cases, the 19th. The trendy lefties read the Grauniad on their iPads.
		
Click to expand...

Methinks Ethan reads Private Eye


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 15, 2014)

[Quinn Martin Narration mode]

And so....

Back to somewhere near 'Ukip and the Political Horizon'....

[/Quinn Martin Narration mode]


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 15, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Where in that, four and a half year old, report does it *show any evidence* that immigrants per se - as opposed to more needy ( e.g. homeless) - get priority?!

That Somalian family - of 7 in a 1 bedroom place - indicates quite the opposite!
		
Click to expand...

90 minutes later...No reply still!

That'll be a 'Nowhere' then!

So much for the 'Groan'! http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ca10BuVvWxQ/hqdefault.jpg


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2014)

Ethan said:



			I see you are a true loyal Daily Wail reader, only interested in their tired old rhetoric and completely unconcerned with hypocrisy. 

*You whine about a welfare seeker or immigrant who gets Â£50 off the Govt *but have no concern about a billionaire born in the UK who avoids paying tax in this country by claiming non-dom status and denying his UK citizenship.

For other readers, this refers to Jonathan Harmsworth, aka Viscount Rothermere, owner of the Daily Wail, who claims non-com status and the Daily Wail group avoids tax by channeling revenue through a chain of offshore companies so pays virtually no UK tax. Truly the paper for patriotic hypocrites.
		
Click to expand...

Please show me where I said that, if you can?   I suggest it's your prejudice of me imagining it.

My Mail Avatar was meant to be a joke, but I guess its not due to my lower intellect.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 15, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			90 minutes later...No reply still!

That'll be a 'Nowhere' then!

So much for the 'Groan'! http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ca10BuVvWxQ/hqdefault.jpg

Click to expand...

Why don't you listen and actually read what I post.   For the last time before I go up the pub.    It wasn't me that said this it was in one of Adey's posts.  i will edit the number in a minute.

It's post 113.


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 15, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Why don't you listen and actually read what I post.   For the last time before I go up the pub.    It wasn't me that said this it was in one of Adey's posts.  i will edit the number in a minute.

It's post 113.
		
Click to expand...

I was replying to your post 123 (which quoted/replied to me)  - as per the quote (in 126)! Adey had already agreed with me - in post 116! And, imo, aptly described those that thought otherwise!

Now, stop shifting goalposts and actually answer the 2 questions I posed! Or do you simply refuse to admit that you are wrong, because, on this matter, all the evidence suggests you are wrong and you haven't presented any that suggest you are right (apart from winged!)!


----------



## ColchesterFC (Oct 16, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			This is the main reason why I detest rags like the Daily Mail that warps its reporting to pander to the prejudices of its, easily led, readers! The scary thing is that the DM is the 'newspaper' with the highest circulation! Propaganda is what it really is!
		
Click to expand...

Do you hold the same views of papers on the other side of the political spectrum such as the Guardian or the Daily Mirror?


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 16, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			Do you hold the same views of papers on the other side of the political spectrum such as the Guardian or the Daily Mirror?
		
Click to expand...

Certainly so for the Daily Mirror - it doesn't seem to bother to verify stories! 

Guardian is a 'proper' paper and ranks with Torygraph and Indy imo. A 'left' bias, but the one (of those 3 or 4 that I read) that I tend to go to if I want in more analysis than opinion. Maybe that's because it started as a 'City' paper like the ones I 'grew up with'. the Indy was a nice concept, but hasn't fulfilled its dream! Times seems to has gone 'down market' over the years. Torygraph used to be  by far the best for  sport overall, but that seems to have slipped over the last few years!

Matt is easily my favourite cartoonist!


----------



## ColchesterFC (Oct 16, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Certainly so for the Daily Mirror - it doesn't seem to bother to verify stories!
		
Click to expand...

I particularly like their headline today about Boris Johnson playing football with the kids in the park. Everyone else has gone for "Boris trips up child while playing football" or something along those lines. The Mirror has gone for "Watch London Mayor send 9-year-old boy flying with crunching challenge"


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 16, 2014)

ColchesterFC said:



			I particularly like their headline today about Boris Johnson playing football with the kids in the park. Everyone else has gone for "Boris trips up child while playing football" or something along those lines. The Mirror has gone for "Watch London Mayor send 9-year-old boy flying with crunching challenge"


Click to expand...

I hate that this is news.

It isn't news. In the slightest. It's not even slightly relevant to anything in anyone's life.


----------



## MadAdey (Oct 16, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Why don't you listen and actually read what I post.   For the last time before I go up the pub.    It wasn't me that said this it was in one of Adey's posts.  i will edit the number in a minute.

It's post 113.
		
Click to expand...

That post was me stepping out of the box and looking back in. People are looking for solutions to their problems and someone is offering it, wether it's a load of old bull or not is irrelevant. 

I know now how any stats canbe twisted to prove your arguement, it's very easy to do with politics. Just go to the correct areas and ask the questions. I'm sure if you did research in West London, the opinions on immigration would be totally different than if you went to an inner city suburb that is full of people on benefits.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Oct 16, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			I hate that this is news.

It isn't news. In the slightest. It's not even slightly relevant to anything in anyone's life.
		
Click to expand...

Of course it's news. It's a chance for The Mirror to put the boot in to a Tory. And you could just as easily change Mirror for Mail and Tory for Labour.  

I agree that it isn't real news but they have to fill the papers with something and that goes for all the papers not just the Mirror. It's a bit like TOWIE/Big Brother etc being on TV. I have absolutely no idea why people find it interesting but enough people obviously watch it for them to keep making new series.


----------



## c1973 (Oct 17, 2014)

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/16/ukip-efdd-group-collapse-brussels?CMP=twt_gu

Looks like the European gravy train they are vehemently opposed to is drying up a bit..........I wonder if they'll be pleased?


----------



## Old Skier (Oct 17, 2014)

c1973 said:



http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/16/ukip-efdd-group-collapse-brussels?CMP=twt_gu

Looks like the European gravy train they are vehemently opposed to is drying up a bit..........I wonder if they'll be pleased? 

Click to expand...

Not drying up, it will just be redistributed.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2014)

Old Skier said:



			Not drying up, it will just be redistributed.
		
Click to expand...


Correctamundo!

The EU knows nothing on the matter of thrift with other peoples money.


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 17, 2014)

SocketRocket said:





Old Skier said:



			Not drying up, it will just be redistributed.
		
Click to expand...

Correctamundo!

The EU knows nothing on the matter of thrift with other peoples money.
		
Click to expand...

It's still Â£1M that won't be going into UKIP coffers!

You've still not answered either of those questions I posed the other night btw!


----------



## Old Skier (Oct 17, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			It's still Â£1M that won't be going into UKIP coffers!
		
Click to expand...

But remains in the coffers of the EU


----------



## Tashyboy (Oct 17, 2014)

Allegedly some bird from Latvia ? Eh? Is put under pressure from the EU to stand down? So she could lead a delegation to Kazakhstan. So the consequences are that UKIP lose 1 million quid from the very establishment that UKIP want nothing to do with.

Hmm no skullguggery there then is there.

if the powers that be in the UK political circle are rattled it seems that rattle is now being felt in Brussels.


----------



## Old Skier (Oct 17, 2014)

Never understood UKIP. Bunch of nobody's who have found a away of getting paid a lot of money from an organization they want nothing to do with and have no hope of bringing down and the British electorate back them. Nice work if you can get it.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			It's still Â£1M that won't be going into UKIP coffers!

You've still not answered either of those questions I posed the other night btw! 

Click to expand...

Seems like my stalker has returned.   Get this! I have had enough of you and your silly policy of constantly trying to discredit everything I post.     I will be placing you on my ignore list right now and there you will stay so I wont need to read any more of it.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2014)

UKIP used to get money from the EU ?!

Surely they wouldn't take funds from the group they want the country to leave ?


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			UKIP used to get money from the EU ?!

Surely they wouldn't take funds from the group they want the country to leave ?
		
Click to expand...

They have quite a few Euro MPs.  I guess they think its best to work from inside the organisation.


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 17, 2014)

SocketRocket said:





Foxholer said:



			It's still Â£1M that won't be going into UKIP coffers!

You've still not answered either of those questions I posed the other night btw! 

Click to expand...

Seems like my stalker has returned.   Get this! I have had enough of you and your silly policy of constantly trying to discredit everything I post.     I will be placing you on my ignore list right now and there you will stay so I wont need to read any more of it.



Click to expand...

Seems that's a 'No I couldn't' then! 

Not so much a stalker btw. as simply trying to get rid of the smell of manure! And if you can't/won't answer those simple questions, then manure is certainly the call!

Quite 'happy' to accept reasoned arguments (and there are some) backed up by evidence, but not the propaganda being spouted by some!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 17, 2014)

That still doesn't explain the fact they UKIP are so anti EU and want the country to leave the EU yet happily take them money from them ?! How hypocritical is that - hopefully losing that money will be the first steps of the shrivelling away with Farage at the bottom


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2014)

Been in Belgium and the Netherlands for a week and curiously driving through Calais docks I saw not one of those desperate hordes trying to get into the UK.  And weirdly - close to where we were staying in Belgium - and close to the German border so a long way from the coast what did I come across - a large camp for immigrants to Belgium.  And I'm not aware that it was some form of transit camp as they headed on there way to the coast of La Manche.  

Now from what some say you might not think that some immigrants to the EU are actually happy to stay in a country other than Britain. No - they are all on their way here.  Well they are not - strange as it may seem Belgium is a civilised and attractive Western European country - with welfare and benefits systems.   And I think that some forget that as far as immigration control goes the UK is rather unique in that there is a 20mile wide stretch of water separating us from the rest of Europe.  For the rest there is no border control - and they just deal with the immigration card they are dealt.  But of course we are somehow different and should be allowed to play to different rules.  And all week I found myself wondering why.


----------



## Foxholer (Oct 17, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That still doesn't explain the fact they UKIP are so anti EU and want the country to leave the EU yet happily take them money from them ?! How hypocritical is that - hopefully losing that money will be the first steps of the shrivelling away with Farage at the bottom
		
Click to expand...

They have, or at least Farage has, been quite open about the fact that, while they are distinctly anti-EU, they will 'take advantage' of all the 'benefits' that are provided. I'm pretty sure that there'll be a deal done to resurrect that funding! And, with the increased support from within UK, they won't lack for funds anyway - at least enough to keep Farage in beers! Hypocritical? Yes. But a further example of why your 'don't trust any of them' approach is quite reasonable!


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Been in Belgium and the Netherlands for a week and curiously driving through Calais docks I saw not one of those desperate hordes trying to get into the UK.  And weirdly - close to where we were staying in Belgium - and close to the German border so a long way from the coast what did I come across - a large camp for immigrants to Belgium.  And I'm not aware that it was some form of transit camp as they headed on there way to the coast of La Manche.  

Now from what some say you might not think that some immigrants to the EU are actually happy to stay in a country other than Britain. No - they are all on their way here.  Well they are not - strange as it may seem Belgium is a civilised and attractive Western European country - with welfare and benefits systems.   And I think that some forget that as far as immigration control goes the UK is rather unique in that there is a 20mile wide stretch of water separating us from the rest of Europe.  For the rest there is no border control - and they just deal with the immigration card they are dealt.  But of course we are somehow different and should be allowed to play to different rules.  And all week I found myself wondering why.
		
Click to expand...

There are a great deal of non EU immigrants that are arriving in many other countries, many more than here in fact.  I dont believe that is in doubt, is it?   I am not sure if these other countries are completely happy with the situation though.

The current political debate is regarding the net numbers that come to the UK each year, currently around 250K.  Mostly by EU member states.   Is this a number we can absorb over time?   Is it wrong or even racist to have concerns on this?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 17, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			There are a great deal of non EU immigrants that are arriving in many other countries, many more than here in fact.  I dont believe that is in doubt, is it?   I am not sure if these other countries are completely happy with the situation though.

The current political debate is regarding the net numbers that come to the UK each year, currently around 250K.  Mostly by EU member states.   Is this a number we can absorb over time?   Is it wrong or even racist to have concerns on this?
		
Click to expand...

No - but why would should our concerns be any greater or given any greater attention than those of, say, Belgium - for whom there is no such thing as border control.  Can Belgium absorb the numbers entering their country.  Maybe not.  But they are having to find some way of doing it because other than building a great big fence around their country they have to.  And likewise numbers entering UK may be difficult to absorb - but we are no different from many EU countries other than we have our boundary fence.  Most find homes and are happy to stay places nowhere near UK.  We are not unique - why do we think we should be treated uniquely by the rest of the EU.  Cameron is I think in cloud cuckoo land if he believes that somehow he can get things changed.  Leave EU if you want but I for one am not going to be suckered into believing that migrants are flooding into and through Western Europe just to get to Britain - because it just isn't true.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 17, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No - but why would should our concerns be any greater or given any greater attention than those of, say, Belgium - for whom there is no such thing as border control.  Can Belgium absorb the numbers entering their country.  Maybe not.  But they are having to find some way of doing it because other than building a great big fence around their country they have to.  And likewise numbers entering UK may be difficult to absorb - but we are no different from many EU countries other than we have our boundary fence.  Most find homes and are happy to stay places nowhere near UK.  We are not unique - why do we think we should be treated uniquely by the rest of the EU.  Cameron is I think in cloud cuckoo land if he believes that somehow he can get things changed.  Leave EU if you want but I for one am not going to be suckered into believing that migrants are flooding into and through Western Europe just to get to Britain - because it just isn't true.
		
Click to expand...

As I said the UK issue is more about numbers and EU immigration.  Belgium is a fairly small country and I guess they would have problems with large numbers of people coming to their country and using their public services.   The issue that is causing so much unrest in the Uk and especially England is the number of EU citizens coming here and how we are unprepared to absorb these numbers.    The people coming as asylum seekers are very small in comparison, we should have systems to deal with their requests though.   Whats the alternative?

I did read that the Netherlands are looking into new regulations to speed up the process of political asylum requests.  I did work in Belgium some time ago and found they had enough problems living with each other, never mind foreigners.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2014)

Trying to take more of a detached view on the immigration issue, is there really a problem?

There is no doubt a very large number of people in the country are not happy with the levels of immigration we have experienced during the last decade.   So why are they unhappy and are their concerns justified or not?

It's a fact that we have had around 4 million net immigrants come to these shores over the last decade and are currently still getting around 200K per annum.   Peoples concerns are that these numbers have put a great strain on public services like the NHS, housing and education and has kept down pay rates in lower paid employment.   Some also believe that it has assisted to create a situation where many people have been almost encouraged to stay at home on benefits while immigrants do the lower paid jobs.

Are these real concerns or are they propaganda from the Tories and UKIP, hyped up by the likes of the DM.   Are they driven by underlying racist tendencies and a dislike of Johnny Foreigner?

We are told there is a need for these immigrants to create a supply of labour that will pay taxes to support the ageing population.  Is this really the case as our birth rates seem quite high, we had 813,200 births in 2012.    The use of immigrants to meet demand is reasonable if they go back to their previous countries before growing old, otherwise they add to the ageing population and we would need an continual exponential increase in numbers to meet demand.

There seems to be two fairly polarised views on the subject that are moving further apart all the time.   Who's right or wrong, or is there a bit of truth in both arguments?


----------



## Fish (Oct 22, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Trying to take more of a detached view on the immigration issue, is there really a problem?

There is no doubt a very large number of people in the country are not happy with the levels of immigration we have experienced during the last decade.   So why are they unhappy and are their concerns justified or not?

It's a fact that we have had around 4 million net immigrants come to these shores over the last decade and are currently still getting around 200K per annum.   Peoples concerns are that these numbers have put a great strain on public services like the NHS, housing and education and has kept down pay rates in lower paid employment.   Some also believe that it has assisted to create a situation where many people have been almost encouraged to stay at home on benefits while immigrants do the lower paid jobs.

Are these real concerns or are they propaganda from the Tories and UKIP, hyped up by the likes of the DM.   Are they driven by underlying racist tendencies and a dislike of Johnny Foreigner?

We are told there is a need for these immigrants to create a supply of labour that will pay taxes to support the ageing population.  Is this really the case as our birth rates seem quite high, we had 813,200 births in 2012.    The use of immigrants to meet demand is reasonable if they go back to their previous countries before growing old, otherwise they add to the ageing population and we would need an continual exponential increase in numbers to meet demand.

There seems to be two fairly polarised views on the subject that are moving further apart all the time.   Who's right or wrong, or is there a bit of truth in both arguments?
		
Click to expand...

It would seem there's an issue also when our jails are full (as always) and we have too many foreign national criminals in them who should be deported and its costing us Â£850m a year to manage them!

Can't see what's so difficult myself, all paperwork done whilst the foreign national offender is serving their sentence, once completed, taken directly to the airport and flown out, simples :smirk: Why let them out only for them to not report back and abscond because they know their fate, its ridiculous and in some cases, puts the public's safety at further risk :angry:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29715630?ocid=socialflow_twitter


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Oct 22, 2014)

What I find very unsettling is the inclusion of UKIP and the Lib Dems in the BBC political televised debate for the 2015 election and the exclusion of the UK's third largest political party.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What I find very unsettling is the inclusion of UKIP and the Lib Dems in the BBC political televised debate for the 2015 election and the exclusion of the UK's third largest political party.
		
Click to expand...

I  can only guess it's due to them not being a party for the whole of the UK.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Oct 22, 2014)

Actually after watching this it has changed my view on it all and I may vote UKIP.  As Mike Read singing in a cod Jamaican accent has really changed my mind on the credibility of the party and the sanity of their supporters.  

[video=youtube_share;Xqs9OSbWluQ]http://youtu.be/Xqs9OSbWluQ[/video]


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Oct 22, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I  can only guess it's due to them not being a party for the whole of the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Democracy oot the windae then as the Tories do not represent the whole of the UK.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I  can only guess it's due to them not being a party for the whole of the UK.
		
Click to expand...

They'll be a party that could *affect *the whole of the UK if they win 20 seats in May 2015.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...cks-labour-tories-ahead-polls-time-1950s.html

And look at the mess Westminster got itself into by ignoring the nationalists for too long.  Don't the wider UK electorate need to know what the SNP would campaign for were UK to vote to leave the EU for instance.


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 22, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Democracy oot the windae then as the Tories do not represent the whole of the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Well the Tories did get over 16% of the Scottish votes in 2010. How many votes did the SNP get outside Scotland?

Of the overall UK vote in the last General Election SNP received 1.7% of the total compared with the BNP's 1.9%!


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 22, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan;1163986 Don't the wider UK electorate need to know what the SNP would campaign for were UK to vote to leave the EU for instance.[/QUOTE said:
			
		


			No! 

Since it would not be relevant to the rest of us. By the way the referendum went against independence.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			No! 

Since it would not be relevant to the rest of us. By the way the referendum went against independence.
		
Click to expand...

It would be if the SNP said they would immediately campaign for a referendum on independence from the UK on the grounds that the decision to leave the UK was contrary to the will of the majority of the Scottish electorate (if indeed any EU referendum that was the case)

BTW - I know that the referendum went against independence - that's my point - with 20 seats the SNP could certainly influence votes taken at Westminster as well as campaign for a ref if UK votes to leave EU.  Both of which would affect the rest of the UK.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Oct 22, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Democracy oot the windae then as the Tories do not represent the whole of the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Much as I'd rather listen to the SNP than UKIP in any debate, I think that if it's a debate between national parties then you have to only have parties that are national, in that anyone watching the debate can vote for.  Not sure how many people would tune in to hear someone from a party that they can not vote for or who does not 'directly' have any influence on what happens where they live. 

Possibly there should be some more 'regional' debates taking place in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland in which the major parties are represented and also the more relevant local parties as well?


----------



## Deleted member 18588 (Oct 22, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It would be if the SNP said they would immediately campaign for a referendum on independence from the UK on the grounds that the decision to leave the UK was contrary to the will of the majority of the Scottish electorate (if indeed any EU referendum that was the case)

BTW - I know that the referendum went against independence - that's my point - with 20 seats the SNP could certainly influence votes taken at Westminster as well as campaign for a ref if UK votes to leave EU.  Both of which would affect the rest of the UK.
		
Click to expand...

But under the present system and even after Devo Max a further referendum would need to be sanctioned by that lot at Westminster.

20 seats may have an influence but not enough, I would suggest, to get another vote on independence so soon after the last one.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2014)

MetalMickie said:



			But under the present system and even after Devo Max a further referendum would need to be sanctioned by that lot at Westminster.

20 seats may have an influence but not enough, I would suggest, to get another vote on independence so soon after the last one.
		
Click to expand...

Rather depends upon the mood of the Scottish electorate I'd suggest - and that being told by Westminster that NO is the 'settled will of the Scottish people' (load of tosh phrase that is anyway) so 'shut it' - may not go down that well.

And on HKs point about 




			...a party that they can not vote for or who does not 'directly' have any influence on what happens where they live
		
Click to expand...

 - well what's the fuss about EVEL then


----------



## NWJocko (Oct 22, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Rather depends upon the mood of the Scottish electorate I'd suggest - and that being told by Westminster that NO is the 'settled will of the Scottish people' (load of tosh phrase that is anyway) so 'shut it' - may not go down that well.

And on HKs point about  - well what's the fuss about EVEL then 

Click to expand...

I think you'll find it was the SNP who first suggested the referendum was "once in a generation".

Oh how that attitude has changed after the result didn't go their way.

Wasn't the mood of the Scottish electorate captured in the recent referendum where c. 28 of 32 constituencies voted no?


----------



## Hacker Khan (Oct 22, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And on HKs point about  - well what's the fuss about EVEL then 

Click to expand...

Possibly being thick here but what is EVEL? I'm assuming you're not referring to Mr Knieval?  In which case this thread is going way off track.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Possibly being thick here but what is EVEL? I'm assuming you're not referring to Mr Knieval?  In which case this thread is going way off track.
		
Click to expand...

Oh do please keep up HK  English Votes for English Laws


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			I think you'll find it was the SNP who first suggested the referendum was "once in a generation".

Oh how that attitude has changed after the result didn't go their way.

Wasn't the mood of the Scottish electorate captured in the recent referendum where c. 28 of 32 constituencies voted no?
		
Click to expand...

Maybe they did - or maybe Alex Salmond did (and he isn't going to be leader of the SNP or FM for much longer).  I could also say 'so what if they did'.  Politicians say lots of things for purely political purposes and not really meaning them.


----------



## bluewolf (Oct 22, 2014)

I thought this thread had died.. Then I see it, sat on my "New posts" screen.. Oh oh, someone's obviously posted about UKIP's newest political alliance with the Far Right, Hitler supporting, Holocaust denying Polish group.. An alliance made purely to keep the gravy train running right into UKIP's pockets....

But no, I find that SILH has somehow managed to resurrect the campaign for Scottish Independence.... Damn and blast..


----------



## bluewolf (Oct 22, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe they did - or maybe Alex Salmond did (and he isn't going to be leader of the SNP or FM for much longer).  I could also say 'so what if they did'.  Politicians say lots of things for purely political purposes and not really meaning them.
		
Click to expand...

You're right SILH.. You and the rest of the 45 can stand there and stamp your feet and "cwy and cwy and cwy" until you get your own way.. What a fabulous advert for democracy..

FWIW, not everyone here in Englandshire wants EVEL. I'm happy with things as they are at the moment thank you very much..


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			I thought this thread had died.. Then I see it, sat on my "New posts" screen.. Oh oh, someone's obviously posted about UKIP's newest political alliance with the Far Right, Hitler supporting, Holocaust denying Polish group.. An alliance made purely to keep the gravy train running right into UKIP's pockets....

But no, I find that SILH has somehow managed to resurrect the campaign for Scottish Independence.... Damn and blast..
		
Click to expand...

Any demand for a future referendum will I think in the first instance come from the Scottish electorate rather than the politicians.  My point is more that apparent 'snubs' (deliberate or no) of the SNP in Westminster 2015 GE debates will only risk exacerbating things if progress towards implementing the 'Vow' is deemed too slow.  Then one good way to risk precipitating a further referendum on independence would be for the UK to vote to leave the EU.  

Carmichael said during the referendum campaign that the rest of the UK and Westminster must work to ensure that conditions *never *again exist that would enable calls for Scottish independence to bring about another referendum.  I suspect some may feel that they are not working very hard on this at the moment - as exemplified here by excluding the SNP from UK-wide debate.


----------



## bluewolf (Oct 22, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Carmichael said during the referendum campaign that the rest of the UK and Westminster must work to ensure that conditions *never *again exist that would enable calls for Scottish independence to bring about another referendum.  I suspect some may feel that they are not working very hard on this at the moment - as exemplified here by excluding the SNP from UK-wide debate.
		
Click to expand...

With all due respect, I suspect that if we all worked together to make the sky rain Â£20 notes and for Golf Club memberships to be free, there'd still be a minority of people who would be sat in the corner complaining that the Â£20's weren't Â£50's and that the course was now too busy to get round 18 in 1hr 45m.. Some people like complaining.. 
Leave em to it, head outside and enjoy the fresh air whilst we all still can.. It won't be long before the Tories have privatised breathing...


----------



## Birchy (Oct 22, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			With all due respect, I suspect that if we all worked together to make the sky rain Â£20 notes and for Golf Club memberships to be free, there'd still be a minority of people who would be sat in the corner complaining that the Â£20's weren't Â£50's and that the course was now too busy to get round 18 in 1hr 45m.. Some people like complaining.. 
Leave em to it, head outside and enjoy the fresh air whilst we all still can.. It won't be long before the Tories have privatised breathing... 

Click to expand...

Unless theres free semi naked caddie girls im out. Just not good enough.


----------



## bluewolf (Oct 22, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Unless theres free semi naked caddie girls im out. Just not good enough. 

Click to expand...

Oh there are semi naked caddie girls.. However, the recruiting area is Bolton.. It won't be pretty mate  

#Roslerout


----------



## Birchy (Oct 22, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Oh there are semi naked caddie girls.. However, the recruiting area is Bolton.. It won't be pretty mate  

#Roslerout
		
Click to expand...

They will be carrying alcohol anyway surely so that will solve that problem 

#Thisgotthatbadthen? :rofl:


----------



## bluewolf (Oct 22, 2014)

Birchy said:



			They will be carrying alcohol anyway surely so that will solve that problem 

#Thisgotthatbadthen? :rofl:
		
Click to expand...

There's not enough alcohol in the world mate.. That's why you got yourself a good Wigan girl  

#itsworsethancoyle


----------



## bluewolf (Oct 22, 2014)

I think I've just realized why this weekends threads have been largely good-natured and interesting... Oh well, back to normality in a few days  I suppose....


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 22, 2014)

On UKIP being a change...well they will be - a pretty awful change to the nature of democratic debate in the 2015 Westminster GE IMO.  In England supporting the Tories, Labour or LibDem and making an argument in favour of their policies or counter to what UKIP state will be dismissed as being 'part of the same old, same old; they would say that; and anyway who can trust a word they say; just listen to us - we're not like them - we're like you' sort of stuff.  Well-argued counter arguments from UKIP and debate could be thin on the ground I fear.  Hopefully I'll be quite wrong.

Mind you Cameron pandering to the UKIP-tendency by drawing a red line in the sand (mixed up stuff there) and making grand declarations over *requiring * - not requesting - changes to EU freedom of movment of labour rules do not help.  Farage can quite rightly simply point to what Jose Manuel Barroso says on that matter and tell us 'there you go - the 'old' parties making promises they know they can't deliver - same old same old, blah blah'


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Oct 22, 2014)

Cameron seems to be making quite a habit of making unfulfilled promises at the moment.

EU Referendum........That will never happen.
The Vow................Jury is out on that one.
English Votes in Westminster..........Not without a devolved English Parliament.

The man seems to have lost the plot and I have also noted he has developed the Thatcher 'mad eyes' when staring down the camera.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 22, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			I think I've just realized why this weekends threads have been largely good-natured and interesting... Oh well, back to normality in a few days  I suppose....

Click to expand...

You know it's a Wednesday right?


----------



## bluewolf (Oct 22, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			You know it's a Wednesday right?
		
Click to expand...

  Yup.. Have quite enjoyed the threads over the last 5 days.. Decent discussions with very little condescension or patronising comment.. Couldn't put my finger on why.. Then it dawned on me.. Ho hum, back to normality in a few days..


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2014)

bluewolf said:



  Yup.. Have quite enjoyed the threads over the last 5 days.. Decent discussions with very little condescension or patronising comment.. Couldn't put my finger on why.. Then it dawned on me.. Ho hum, back to normality in a few days..
		
Click to expand...


Codpiece face


----------



## Hacker Khan (Oct 22, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Codpiece face 

Click to expand...

What did you say????


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 22, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			What did you say????
		
Click to expand...

Just trying to get the forum back to normal


----------



## Father_Ted (Oct 23, 2014)

Its odd that as UKIP support has been rising so has the support for UK to stay in EU

A Mori poll showed that support to stay in EU had increased from 44 to 54 to 56% from Nov 12 to May 14 and Oct 14

And also odd that while theres only 1 UKIP MP in UK Parliament they are the largest UK party in European one. Surely just a protest vote


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 23, 2014)

Father_Ted said:



			Its odd that as UKIP support has been rising so has the support for UK to stay in EU

A Mori poll showed that support to stay in EU had increased from 44 to 54 to 56% from Nov 12 to May 14 and Oct 14

And also odd that while theres only 1 UKIP MP in UK Parliament they are the largest UK party in European one. Surely just a protest vote
		
Click to expand...

What are they protesting about though!


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 23, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			What are they protesting about though!
		
Click to expand...

*What aren't they protesting about though


----------



## Father_Ted (Oct 23, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			What are they protesting about though!
		
Click to expand...

Protest is probably not the right term

More like in the belief that UKIP will keep the EU Parliament honest

And UKIP seems to be more interested in milking it for their own funding. They reestablished their parliamentary group fast enough when that lost recognition. And with a member of a really weird party

They also had the poorest record of attendance and voting of any party from anywhere


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 23, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			*What aren't they protesting about though
		
Click to expand...

I'm not talking about UKIP.  I am referring to the comment that votes for them are a protest.    My question is that if this is so then what are these voters protesting about.


----------



## Father_Ted (Oct 23, 2014)

And given that the European Elections were mid termish in the UK election cycle it quite possibly was a protest of a sort with no specific reason

Thats generally the pattern in such elections

Voters want to express their discontent by voting against the government but not for the opposition irrespective of whos in power


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 23, 2014)

Father_Ted said:



			And given that the European Elections were mid termish in the UK election cycle it quite possibly was a protest of a sort with no specific reason

Thats generally the pattern in such elections

Voters want to express their discontent by voting against the government but not for the opposition irrespective of whos in power
		
Click to expand...

OK.  But what is it they are discontent about and why dont they vote Labour?  I think its more to do with a lot of people that want the Conservatives to move further right and are protesting because they aren't.


----------



## Father_Ted (Oct 23, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			OK.  But what is it they are discontent about and why dont they vote Labour?  I think its more to do with a lot of people that want the Conservatives to move further right and are protesting because they aren't.
		
Click to expand...

As I said earlier it doesnt matter whether Conservatives or Labour are in power. Mid term votes generally go against the government

And the beneficiary is normally not the opposition

And with LibDems being part of the government its not going to go to them

Arent you just hoping its about moving further right

UKIP had 13 MEPs and no MPs last year. That either doesnt add up or UKIP are truly awful campaigners. Many say Carswell doesnt really count as a UKIP MP until reelected in May   

Explain why UKIP popularity is rising yet percentage who want to stay in Europe is also rising


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 23, 2014)

Father_Ted said:



			As I said earlier it doesnt matter whether Conservatives or Labour are in power. Mid term votes generally go against the government

And the beneficiary is normally not the opposition

And with LibDems being part of the government its not going to go to them

Arent you just hoping its about moving further right

UKIP had 13 MEPs and no MPs last year. That either doesnt add up or UKIP are truly awful campaigners. Many say Carswell doesnt really count as a UKIP MP until reelected in May   

Explain why UKIP popularity is rising yet percentage who want to stay in Europe is also rising
		
Click to expand...

Why should I hope its moving right?      I think people who suggest its a protest vote are grasping at straws and not accepting there is a growing move to the right throughout Europe.   I would put it to you that there is a growing dissatisfaction with the way the EU is performing and how people perceive its principles affect their lives.    I think its very naive to think its just a mid term protest.


----------



## Rumpokid (Oct 23, 2014)

I  will vote UKIP,.... and it is not a protest vote.
I read the Mail on Sunday too, as it is the voice of the nation.

It is time that current parties got there heads back out from where they are stuck,and woke up to the problems of the country, they are in denial......Be it,,,,bloated  welfare bill, health, immigration, lack of discipline in schools, personal and national debt..The list is endless.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 23, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			I  will vote UKIP,.... and it is not a protest vote.
I read the Mail on Sunday too, as it is the voice of the nation.

It is time that current parties got there heads back out from where they are stuck,and woke up to the problems of the country, they are in denial......Be it,,,,bloated  welfare bill, health, immigration, lack of discipline in schools, personal and national debt..The list is endless.
		
Click to expand...

There are many who feel the same.     I noticed our National debt rose to 1.45 Trillion this month and we are continuing to borrow silly amounts.       How can this continue?


----------



## Father_Ted (Oct 23, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Why should I hope its moving right?      I think people who suggest its a protest vote are grasping at straws and not accepting there is a growing move to the right throughout Europe.   I would put it to you that there is a growing dissatisfaction with the way the EU is performing and how people perceive its principles affect their lives.    I think its very naive to think its just a mid term protest.
		
Click to expand...

So why did Mori find that more people want to stay in Europe


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 23, 2014)

Its a protest vote.   The polls all said Scotland would vote Yes.


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 23, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			I  will vote UKIP,.... and it is not a protest vote.
I read the Mail on Sunday too, as it is the voice of the nation.

It is time that current parties got there heads back out from where they are stuck,and woke up to the problems of the country, they are in denial......Be it,,,,bloated  welfare bill, health, immigration, lack of discipline in schools, personal and national debt..The list is endless.
		
Click to expand...


Oh phew. There was me thinking UKIP were full of ridiculous, ill thought out, headline seeking, conflicting policies 

But now I know they'll magically fix all of those issues, Come on Farage!


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Oct 23, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Its a protest vote.   The polls all said Scotland would vote Yes.
		
Click to expand...

No they didn't. One single poll over the whole campaign said that.


----------



## Father_Ted (Oct 23, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Its a protest vote.   The polls all said Scotland would vote Yes.
		
Click to expand...

Only 1 poll put Yes ahead and then the big guns shot that down 

Your on a Wind Up so I am out

Farage is on a Wind Up too. He is laughing in almost every photo you see of him


----------



## Rumpokid (Oct 23, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Oh phew. There was me thinking UKIP were full of ridiculous, ill thought out, headline seeking, conflicting policies 

But now I know they'll magically fix all of those issues, Come on Farage!
		
Click to expand...

Well...the sham marriage between Mr Slippery and Mr Invisible have made a right good go of it..Lies,lies and more lies..So i guess (if Labourious get in),we'll be fine with Mr Ed and his contingent of hypocrites won't we?


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 23, 2014)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Oh phew. There was me thinking UKIP were full of ridiculous, ill thought out, headline seeking, conflicting policies 

But now I know they'll magically fix all of those issues, Come on Farage!
		
Click to expand...

Have you made an effort to find out what they stand for or do you get it from the Guardian?


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 23, 2014)

I see the EU have decided that due to our economy recovering better than the rest of the EU we will have to pay an additional Â£1.7 Billion.    You couldn't make it up!


----------



## Fish (Oct 24, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I see the EU have decided that due to our economy recovering better than the rest of the EU we will have to pay an additional Â£1.7 Billion.    You couldn't make it up!
		
Click to expand...

I've just read this, apparently our success will help "prop-up" struggling France, I'm sorry but this is just crazy and if they (Brussels) can DEMAND this 1.7m, then the quicker we get out of Europe the better, I don't buy into this "we can't then trade" etc, if we have the skills and goods and the price is right, then customers wherever they are, will buy from us!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-29750308?ocid=socialflow_twitter


----------



## Fish (Oct 24, 2014)

Only got 8 minutes into this as I don't have time (40mins) to listen to it all this morning, but from what I have listened to briefly, what a scary eye opener it is! 

http://youtu.be/7lBW9NI90jQ


----------



## Rumpokid (Oct 24, 2014)

With this latest demand from our European fatcat friends, it all appears to be getting a little silly.
Britain is the naughty schoolboy that is always getting a hundred lines from the EU.
Mr Slippery no doubt will come home 'victorious' with yet another agreement for us..No chance.Bottom line is, we as a nation are dissliked by the EU....Time for change...


----------



## jp5 (Oct 24, 2014)

Wow, Â£1.7billion demanded from the EU as a result of the austerity the country has been through.

Now, where are those commentators who suggested that only the low-of-IQ vote for UKIP? Perhaps with their diminished intellect, the low-of-IQ can see how much of a drain EU membership is on this great country.


----------



## Birchy (Oct 24, 2014)

Tell the EU on your bike you set of ............. (insert favourite swearword).

All we ever do is payout, we always put in more than we get out so what is the point?

All the so called benefits we get are flimsy as well.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			It is time that current parties got there heads back out from where they are stuck,and woke up to the problems of the country, they are in denial......Be it,,,,bloated  welfare bill, health, immigration, lack of discipline in schools, personal and national debt..The list is endless.
		
Click to expand...


...and UKIP have costed policies to address all of the above...?  With UKIP I have a feeling of 'better the devil you don't know...'


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Oct 24, 2014)

I really do not understand why posters say that the UK get nothing out of Europe.

In Scotland many new rural and major infrastructure developments are EU supported and our farmers would not exist if it were not for the EU subsidies.


----------



## jp5 (Oct 24, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I really do not understand why posters say that the UK get nothing out of Europe.

In Scotland many new rural and major infrastructure developments are EU supported and our farmers would not exist if it were not for the EU subsidies.
		
Click to expand...

We don't get nothing, we get less than we put in.


----------



## Birchy (Oct 24, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I really do not understand why posters say that the UK get nothing out of Europe.

In Scotland many new rural and major infrastructure developments are EU supported and our farmers would not exist if it were not for the EU subsidies.
		
Click to expand...

Couple of years old this article but it gives you an idea on the trend that we have been sucked into by these jokers.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2052433/Chart-How-does-Britain-pay-EU-does-back.html


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Oct 24, 2014)

So not Â£1.7bn then?


----------



## Birchy (Oct 24, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So not Â£1.7bn then?
		
Click to expand...

Im not sure what you are getting at with that question.

We are 97 billion euros down off the figures shown in that article.


----------



## Birchy (Oct 24, 2014)

Just open the vaults and let them come and take what they want.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 24, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Just open the vaults and let them come and take what they want.

View attachment 12698

Click to expand...

That's not w nice pic to look at 

So why are we having to pay all this money ?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2014)

It's news that EU Leavers and Haters will just love.  However I am wondering how much of our current economic 'success' is actually *due* to our membership of the EU and our ability to exploit the markets that it provides the UK with by us being in it.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 24, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's news that EU Leavers and Haters will just love.  However I am wondering how much of our current economic 'success' is actually *due* to our membership of the EU and our ability to exploit the markets that it provides the UK with by us being in it.
		
Click to expand...

And can you blame them!

Its due to the pain the public have had to bear by austerity cuts. So the EU decide to punish us for this, like I said you couldn't make it up!   Manna from Heaven for UKIP though.


----------



## jp5 (Oct 24, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's news that EU Leavers and Haters will just love.  However I am wondering how much of our current economic 'success' is actually *due* to our membership of the EU and our ability to exploit the markets that it provides the UK with by us being in it.
		
Click to expand...

And we, the 5th (?) largest world economy, wouldn't be able to trade with those markets if we weren't a member of the union?


----------



## Birchy (Oct 24, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's news that EU Leavers and Haters will just love.  However I am wondering how much of our current economic 'success' is actually *due* to our membership of the EU and our ability to exploit the markets that it provides the UK with by us being in it.
		
Click to expand...

I find it hard to believe that anybody will trade with a nationality over skills, quality & value.

I also wonder how much throwing all that money into the joke European project over the years actually contributed to us struggling in the first place?

All the facts point to us getting a **** deal out of the EU since it started until now. Propping up nations who constantly struggle and aren't even bothered as they get a nice juicy hand out.

Ive never voted UKIP but they will drag a shedload of voters in with this.

I might have to give half my IQ to the EU and make a change.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			And can you blame them!

Its due to the pain the public have had to bear by austerity cuts. So the EU decide to punish us for this, like I said you couldn't make it up!   Manna from Heaven for UKIP though.
		
Click to expand...

Indeed - but it isn't punishment - it's just us playing to the rule that says if a country is doing well by being in the EU then it contributes a bit more to the pot.  Of course that argument will fall on deaf ears of UKIP - especially as it is a bit socialist (distributive) in nature - as their focus is on the UK belly button and the fluff contained therein.  But all good and well for them as they don't make any bones about that - and if that's what UKIP supporters want then so be it.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 24, 2014)

jp5 said:



			And we, the 5th (?) largest world economy, wouldn't be able to trade with those markets if we weren't a member of the union?
		
Click to expand...


Spot on!  It makes me laugh when people suggest that if we left the EU the countries of Europe would stop trading with us, we trade with them at a deficit !!

I guess we would have to borrow the Â£1.7 Billion as well as we don't have any money, just a Â£1.45 Trillion National Debt.   Couldn't make it up!


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 24, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - but it isn't punishment - it's just us playing to the rule that says if a country is doing well by being in the EU then it contributes a bit more to the pot.  Of course that argument will fall on deaf ears of UKIP - especially as it is a bit socialist (distributive) in nature - as their focus is on the UK belly button and the fluff contained therein.  But all good and well for them as they don't make any bones about that - and if that's what UKIP supporters want then so be it.
		
Click to expand...

I get it then!   We make cuts and suffer to improve growth and pay more into the pot, other countries keep spending and carry on being basket cases.    We have to pay more to keep them in their current malaise!

Whats this got to do with UKIP?      I guess you don't like it that the things they are telling people about the EU are coming home to roost.


----------



## Sweep (Oct 24, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That's not w nice pic to look at 

So why are we having to pay all this money ?
		
Click to expand...

Because we chose not to join the Euro and as a result our economy has ended up better than that of the Eurozone, so we end up paying for everyone else's mistake. And look who gets the biggest reduction!


----------



## c1973 (Oct 24, 2014)

Not having read too much about this today I'd like to ask the following question. 

Are we getting a bill because we have been paying less into the pot than we should have and are France, Germany etc getting a huge rebate as they have overpaid?

On the surface (which,let's face it, most folks won't scratch) this plays right into the eurosceptics (UKIP in particular) argument. Not an encouraging sign at all. 

Or is there more to this bill, politically, than meets the eye.....hmmmm....I wonder?  Deals to be made for a reduction perhaps?


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 24, 2014)

They seem to be saying that they are taking into account the 'Black Market' in our GDP calculations now.   These include such things as Prostitution and Drug dealing.     You couldn't make it up!!!!


----------



## Tashyboy (Oct 24, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I see the EU have decided that due to our economy recovering better than the rest of the EU we will have to pay an additional Â£1.7 Billion.    You couldn't make it up!
		
Click to expand...


Socket rocket me man. Your quote above dosent have a great deal to do with UKIP change on the horizon etcetc.

But do you think it will influence "floaters" am not sure that's the term ? Into thinking it's another reason why were getting a bum deal out of Europe, ie what were paying in an getting out, Immigration etc and why people are looking at UKIP as an option.


----------



## MadAdey (Oct 24, 2014)

With things like this Â£1.7b bill, UKIP do not even have to bother with a political campaign, it is already being done for them. Every time something like this comes they must be rubbing their hands in delight.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 24, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			Socket rocket me man. Your quote above dosent have a great deal to do with UKIP change on the horizon etcetc.

But do you think it will influence "floaters" am not sure that's the term ? Into thinking it's another reason why were getting a bum deal out of Europe, ie what were paying in an getting out, Immigration etc and why people are looking at UKIP as an option.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly.   As I said earlier, this is Manna from Heaven to UKIP.    What on earth does the EU think they are doing?  In a time like this when the UK has much unrest with their membership terms they come up with this bombshell!


----------



## Tashyboy (Oct 24, 2014)

Well it's official. Tashyboy has tyrets

ave just watched BBC news and in a nutshell once we have paid in our bit and got a bit back we are 8.6 billion pounds out of pocket.

we pay 8.6 billion to be in the EU and they want another 1.7 billion. 

Someone please explain in plain English what value we actually get for bein 8.6 bills down


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 24, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			Well it's official. Tashyboy has tyrets

ave just watched BBC news and in a nutshell once we have paid in our bit and got a bit back we are 8.6 billion pounds out of pocket.

we pay 8.6 billion to be in the EU and they want another 1.7 billion. 

Someone please explain in plain English what value we actually get for bein 8.6 bills down
		
Click to expand...


The nice warm feeling of helping out France and Germany, along with many others.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 24, 2014)

We won't pay that amount of money


----------



## Tashyboy (Oct 24, 2014)

I always try to look at the positives and the fact that Greece is asked to pay 70 million quid made me chuckle. Where they gonna find that coz las thing I heard was they owed more than Kerry Katonia


----------



## Hobbit (Oct 24, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We won't pay that amount of money
		
Click to expand...

I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if Diddy David told the EU to ask for that much, then he can be seen to negotiate it down to what they really want. And then everyone believes the spin and we vote to stay in the EU...


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 24, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if Diddy David told the EU to ask for that much, then he can be seen to negotiate it down to what they really want. And then everyone believes the spin and we vote to stay in the EU...
		
Click to expand...

What! David Hamilton.   Does he work for the Government now?


----------



## JCW (Oct 24, 2014)

UKIP is a protest vote , a mid term protest vote nothink more , soon they be having a kip and no one will miss them as they are not fit to be in power


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

JCW said:



			UKIP is a protest vote , a mid term protest vote nothink more , soon they be having a kip and no one will miss them as they are not fit to be in power
		
Click to expand...

Please explain what they are protesting about?


----------



## JCW (Oct 25, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Please explain what they are protesting about?
		
Click to expand...

Me ? nothink as the by  election is not in my area , others are against this goverment , so they vote ukip to get them thinking hard about things they not happy about


----------



## bluewolf (Oct 25, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Please explain what they are protesting about?
		
Click to expand...


they're not happy about what Murdoch et al tell them to be not happy about.. We are but simple creatures. We like to be told who the enemy is. We don't like to look around and work it out for ourselves...


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

JCW said:



			Me ? nothink as the by  election is not in my area , others are against this goverment , so they vote ukip to get them thinking hard about things they not happy about
		
Click to expand...

Not good enough.   They could vote Labour as a protest, why UKIP?


----------



## JCW (Oct 25, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Not good enough.   They could vote Labour as a protest, why UKIP?
		
Click to expand...

ukip is the new kid on the block thats why , labour like the tories have track records


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			they're not happy about what Murdoch et al tell them to be not happy about.. We are but simple creatures. We like to be told who the enemy is. We don't like to look around and work it out for ourselves...

Click to expand...

Its a bit like the Kings suit of clothes then.     Only a fool would see the problems that UKIP voters are concerned about


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

JCW said:



			ukip is the new kid on the block thats why , labour like the tories have track records
		
Click to expand...

So all these people and there are a lot of them are not interested in UKIP's policies, they are just protesting!

Really!


----------



## JCW (Oct 25, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			So all these people and there are a lot of them are not interested in UKIP's policies, they are just protesting!

Really!
		
Click to expand...


Whats your angle pal , what answer do you want , its nothink new , people use to vote for lord Sutch and his monster raving looney party , but at a general election it was another story


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

JCW said:



			Whats your angle pal , what answer do you want , its nothink new , people use to vote for lord Sutch and his monster raving looney party , but at a general election it was another story
		
Click to expand...

Oh! so how many voted for the Monster Raving Looney Party?  Not as many as UKIP!    Just wait and see what happens in the upcoming Bi-election.

I dont have angles I just say what I see (Like catchphrase)  and i just want answers that are logical.    Do you honestly believe these people voting UKIP are not supporting their policies?   If you do then you IMO are delusional Pal!


----------



## JCW (Oct 25, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Oh! so how many voted for the Monster Raving Looney Party?  Not as many as UKIP!    Just wait and see what happens in the upcoming Bi-election.

I dont have angles I just say what I see (Like catchphrase)  and i just want answers that are logical.    Do you honestly believe these people voting UKIP are not supporting their policies?   If you do then you IMO delusional.  Oh! Pal 

Click to expand...

Ukip will win the by election then lose it at the General election and as for policies , do you 100% know what they stand for or do all those  that vote know , I think not , its just a way of getting back at the tories , if you seeing more then good luck to you , Ukip will never be in power


----------



## bluewolf (Oct 25, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Its a bit like the Kings suit of clothes then.     Only a fool would see the problems that UKIP voters are concerned about 

Click to expand...

Ah, I never called anyone foolish. I just stated that sometimes, people like to look in the direction that others are pointing. 

What I am currently interested in is the political alliance between UKIP and the Polish Far Right. Whilst it may just be a marriage of convenience, I would be amazed if certain media allies are happy with the arrangement...


----------



## chrisd (Oct 25, 2014)

JCW said:



			Ukip will win the by election then lose it at the General election and as for policies , do you 100% know what they stand for or do all those  that vote know , I think not , its just a way of getting back at the tories , if you seeing more then good luck to you , Ukip will never be in power
		
Click to expand...

No, UKIP will never be in power and that why they don't need policies for everything. Why would anyone be interested in their policy for, say, Syria when it's irrelevant to any discussion, opponents only bring this up to show that they aren't ready to govern - but they aren't going to govern, so they don't need to worry beyond their reason for existing - to extricate us from the EU and the immigration that goes with it. But IMO any who thinks that UKIP won't win seats at the general election if the main parties don't become more appealing are deluding themselves!


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

JCW said:



			Ukip will win the by election then lose it at the General election and as for policies , do you 100% know what they stand for or do all those  that vote know , I think not , its just a way of getting back at the tories , if you seeing more then good luck to you , Ukip will never be in power
		
Click to expand...

If you want to understand what they stand for then go have a look at their web site.  I't's all listed there.

http://www.ukip.org/issues


----------



## Ethan (Oct 25, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			If you want to understand what they stand for then go have a look at their web site.  I't's all listed there.

http://www.ukip.org/issues

Click to expand...

If you want to see an incoherent and incontinent wish list of fanciful, uncommitted and unworkable xenophobic promises, you mean.

UKIP do best when they make vague promises and bark slogans, because they hope that most of their supporters lack the interest or intellect to look beyond the superficial. Which, based on most of the UKIP supporters who turn up on TV, seems to be a reasonable hope.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

Ethan said:



			If you want to see an incoherent and incontinent wish list of fanciful, uncommitted and unworkable xenophobic promises, you mean.

UKIP do best when they make vague promises and bark slogans, because they hope that most of their supporters lack the interest or intellect to look beyond the superficial. Which, based on most of the UKIP supporters who turn up on TV, seems to be a reasonable hope.
		
Click to expand...

Your continual policy of insulting peoples intellect is disgusting and does noting for yours.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

Nigel seems quite a fair orator, I like his style.  

[video=youtube;h5Y3rA8nBfQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5Y3rA8nBfQ[/video]


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Oct 25, 2014)

Is it still UKIP policy to abolish the Wales and Scots parliament?


----------



## JCW (Oct 25, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Nigel seems quite a fair orator, I like his style.  

[video=youtube;h5Y3rA8nBfQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5Y3rA8nBfQ[/video]
		
Click to expand...

He is a Bigot , a  Nazi dressed up as what those that follow him want him to be , win the odd by election and shout the odds and thats it , some get taken in but for how long no one knows or cares


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Is it still UKIP policy to abolish the Wales and Scots parliament?
		
Click to expand...

You tell me.   Its not in their list of policies so where is it?


----------



## Ethan (Oct 25, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Your continual policy of insulting peoples intellect is disgusting and does noting for yours.
		
Click to expand...

Oh, I find it rather satisfying. 

Have a spare 'h', by the way.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Oh, I find it rather satisfying. 

Have a spare 'h', by the way.
		
Click to expand...

What else do you expect from one of the great unwashed.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

JCW said:



			He is a Bigot , a  Nazi dressed up as what those that follow him want him to be , win the odd by election and shout the odds and thats it , some get taken in but for how long no one knows or cares
		
Click to expand...

....


----------



## Ethan (Oct 25, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			What else do you expect from one of the great unwashed.
		
Click to expand...

Seriously, though, that list of UKIP ideas is mostly fanciful nonsense. If you tunnel into any of them, the amount of cost and change needed would be enormous and mostly unachievable. It is easy to promise that GPs will be available 7 days a week and will do house calls in their Austin 7 like Dr Finlay, and many people would agree that is a good thing (although it may or may not be) but it something else entirely to deliver that. 

UKIP basically has a 'out of Europe' policy and everything else is either cut and pasted in around that idea or is simply absent. They would be better to stick as a single issue party acknowledging they are never going to be in Govt. Like the National Health Action Party, who campaign on the NHS only and don't have policy on everything else.


----------



## Tashyboy (Oct 25, 2014)

JCW said:



			He is a Bigot , a  Nazi dressed up as what those that follow him want him to be , win the odd by election and shout the odds and thats it , some get taken in but for how long no one knows or cares
		
Click to expand...

The problem is and I keep saying this, what did Nigel Farage say in that video clip which was factually wrong. Nothing and anyone who has learned to read and write and gets to see that clip, well it will endorse there beliefs that they have something to relate to.

re UKIPs policies and putting them on here. In the essence of fairness, labours and the Tories should be linked and put on here, because I bet just as many voters don't know what there policies are either.

dont bother with the Libs coz you can't believe them


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Seriously, though, that list of UKIP ideas is mostly fanciful nonsense. If you tunnel into any of them, the amount of cost and change needed would be enormous and mostly unachievable. It is easy to promise that GPs will be available 7 days a week and will do house calls in their Austin 7 like Dr Finlay, and many people would agree that is a good thing (although it may or may not be) but it something else entirely to deliver that. 

UKIP basically has a 'out of Europe' policy and everything else is either cut and pasted in around that idea or is simply absent. They would be better to stick as a single issue party acknowledging they are never going to be in Govt. Like the National Health Action Party, who campaign on the NHS only and don't have policy on everything else.
		
Click to expand...

they seem to believe we would have a fir amount of cash is we weren't paying so much to the EU.   Â£1.7 Billion that just jumped out of the hat would go a long way to paying for some more Doctors.


----------



## Ethan (Oct 25, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			they seem to believe we would have a fir amount of cash is we weren't paying so much to the EU.   Â£1.7 Billion that just jumped out of the hat would go a long way to paying for some more Doctors.
		
Click to expand...

But it isn't as simple as saying we won't pay the money we owe to the EU and therefore we can go on a spending spree on something else. The economy will reset if EU withdrawal takes place and there will be additional costs elsewhere, money lost on one placed, gained in another and it will take a while before we see the net effect which may or may not be positive. All the farmers who get EU subsidy would lose those, so might need UK Govt support instead, some of the markets available for EU trade might not be available on the same terms, admin costs for import/export would be more complicated and costly. 

Anyway, this issue with the Â£1.7bn is a stunt. The UK owes this, had agreed the mechanism in advance, knew it was coming and will pay, but Cameron is doing a Jim Hacker strop for political purposes to placate the would be UKIP vote in his party.


----------



## Fish (Oct 25, 2014)

Ethan said:



			If you want to see an incoherent and incontinent wish list of fanciful, uncommitted and unworkable xenophobic promises, you mean.

UKIP do best when they make vague promises and bark slogans, because they hope that most of their supporters lack the interest or intellect to look beyond the superficial. Which, based on most of the UKIP supporters who turn up on TV, seems to be a reasonable hope.
		
Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



			Your continual policy of insulting peoples intellect is disgusting and does noting for yours.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, if voting means getting out of Europe which I'm all for, so be it, they'll get my vote :thup:

I don't see why, even if we've agreed to "the mechanism" there is no reward for all of us who are making sacrifices to shore up the deficit and our economy only then to see us propping up the likes of France & Germany who aren't obviously trying hard enough because we've got to shell out another 1.7bn which also goes to other countries getting refunds and more bailouts, stuff them, stuff Europe, as I said in an earlier post, I don't buy into the "we'll be cut off from trading" rubbish, if we have the skills and the product, countries will buy it, simples.

This rant was obviously written by an illiterate, uneducated, unwashed individual who has been hoodwinked and taken in by the UKIP train :smirk:


----------



## bluewolf (Oct 25, 2014)

Holland are paying more per head than we are back into the pot.. Oh, and it's not strictly a direct redistribution of wealth from the UK to France, Germany etc.. It's a re-calculation of past contributions based on new data..


----------



## bluewolf (Oct 25, 2014)

Ok Socketrocket. I've raised the issue twice and it's been ignored on both occasions..

What is your opinion on UKIP's new political allies in Europe? The Polish "Congress of the new Right" party..

Here is a small sample of their political views...

In July, he declared in English that the minimum wage should be â€œdestroyedâ€ and said that â€œfour million nixxxrsâ€ lost their jobs in the US as a result of the US president John F Kennedy signing a bill on the minimum wage in 1961.

Korwin-Mikke has also called for the vote to be taken away from women, has claimed that the difference between rape and consensual sex was â€œvery subtleâ€ and has said that Adolf Hitler was â€œprobably not aware that Jews were being exterminatedâ€.

When Korwin-Mikke tried to form an alliance with the French BNP, Marine Le Pen claimed that they were just too extreme.  

So, multiple choice question.. Which one has Mr Farage sold out for money..

a, His principles
b, His morals
c, His own Grandmother..

Note, apologies for the x'd out word above. It's a direct quote from a political ally of a party that several people on here support..


----------



## jp5 (Oct 25, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Ok Socketrocket. I've raised the issue twice and it's been ignored on both occasions..

What is your opinion on UKIP's new political allies in Europe? The Polish "Congress of the new Right" party..
		
Click to expand...

Do you actually understand what has happened or have you fallen foul of the media mud slinging?

If you want to bring up European alliances, perhaps you should report back on what the other parties are doing for fair comparison, such as the Tories alliance with the ECR. 

Look forward to reading your balanced report!


----------



## Ethan (Oct 25, 2014)

Fish said:



			I agree, if voting means getting out of Europe which I'm all for, so be it, they'll get my vote :thup:

I don't see why, even if we've agreed to "the mechanism" there is no reward for all of us who are making sacrifices to shore up the deficit and our economy only then to see us propping up the likes of France & Germany who aren't obviously trying hard enough because we've got to shell out another 1.7bn which also goes to other countries getting refunds and more bailouts, stuff them, stuff Europe, as I said in an earlier post, I don't buy into the "we'll be cut off from trading" rubbish, if we have the skills and the product, countries will buy it, simples.

*This rant was obviously written by an illiterate, uneducated, unwashed individual who has been hoodwinked and taken in by the UKIP train*

Click to expand...

At last we agree on something.


----------



## bluewolf (Oct 25, 2014)

jp5 said:



			Do you actually understand what has happened or have you fallen foul of the media mud slinging?

If you want to bring up European alliances, perhaps you should report back on what the other parties are doing for fair comparison, such as the Tories alliance with the ECR. 

Look forward to reading your balanced report!
		
Click to expand...

this is a thread about UKIP. Correct?  Not the tories and their shabby little deals. If you want to discuss the Tories then start another thread.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Oct 25, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			You tell me.   Its not in their list of policies so where is it?
		
Click to expand...

http://devolutionmatters.wordpress.com/2010/02/16/ukips-policy-on-britishness/

4 years ago but there are later links.
The UKIP person on question time did not say it had changed when asked. [Perhaps she was unaware]


----------



## jp5 (Oct 25, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			this is a thread about UKIP. Correct?  Not the tories and their shabby little deals. If you want to discuss the Tories then start another thread.
		
Click to expand...

My point, proven by yourself, was that if you dig deep enough dirt can be found on any party - shady dealings aren't a phenomena specific to UKIP.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2014)

UKIP have such a great way with words 

*Ukip's Chris Pain, leader of the opposition at Lincs Council and the partyâ€™s East Midlands regional chairman, wrote: â€œHave you noticed that if you *rearrange the letters in â€˜illegal *immigrantsâ€™, and add just a few more letters, it spells, â€˜Go home you free-loading, benefit-grabbing, resource-sucking, baby-making, non-English-speaking ********* and take those other hairy-faced, sandal-wearing, bomb-making, camel-riding, goat-********, raghead ******** with you.â€™â€


Mr Pain has also *objected to foreign doctors working in the NHS.

Last May he posted a story about a Hungarian medic who bungled an operation on a four-year-old boy in Manchester, and wrote: â€œWe donâ€™t want them taking all the jobs in the local community and we certainly donâ€™t want them working in our hospitals!â€

Peter Entwistle, party chairman in Bury, Greater Manchester, labelled President Barack Obama a Muslim, writing: â€œI bet heâ€™s a closet â€˜Imamâ€™ as well!

"If I ever see him on a Greyhound bus wearing a rucksack, Iâ€™m getting off!!â€

The partyâ€™s deputy chairman in Scotland, Misty Thackeray, â€œlikedâ€ a Facebook group claiming â€œpaedophilia is part of Islamic traditionâ€.

He also praised far-right Dutch politician Geert Wilders, a self-*confessed â€œhater of Islamâ€.

Recommending Mr Wildersâ€™ new book, he said: â€œGeert is great ...(peace be upon him.. lol) ..!â€

Meanwhile Tiggs Keywood-*Wainwright, a Ukip councillor in Boston, Lincs, complained about mosques being built in â€œquintessentially Englishâ€ Cambridge. â€œIs nowhere sacred for the Brits in Britain any more?â€ she wrote.

â€œBottom line is we have too many muslims in this country!â€

*


----------



## bluewolf (Oct 25, 2014)

jp5 said:



			My point, proven by yourself, was that if you dig deep enough dirt can be found on any party - shady dealings aren't a phenomena specific to UKIP.
		
Click to expand...

But the opportunistic nature, coupled with the ambivalence towards the political leanings of the "Congress for the New Right" illustrate the exact nature of UKIP. They are opportunistic, devious, manipulative individuals who have spotted a gap in the political firmament and are exploiting it for all they're worth. I'm not claiming that this is a new development in Politics, but the apparent ease with which they are finding support leaves me more than a touch concerned about future developments..


----------



## NWJocko (Oct 25, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Oh, I find it rather satisfying. 

.
		
Click to expand...

As noted before that's because you come across on here as an arrogant....

I'm sure if a non mod continually called people stupid/illiterate etc there would be something said.

You may well be a decent bloke in person but your attitude on here does you no favours. Surely somebody as incredibly intelligent as you keep telling us you are can debate and/or discuss without the need for petty insults?


----------



## Fish (Oct 25, 2014)

Ethan said:



			If you want to see an incoherent and incontinent wish list of fanciful, uncommitted and unworkable xenophobic promises, you mean.

UKIP do best when they make vague promises and bark slogans, because they hope that most of their supporters lack the interest or intellect to look beyond the superficial. Which, based on most of the UKIP supporters who turn up on TV, seems to be a reasonable hope.
		
Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



			Your continual policy of insulting peoples intellect is disgusting and does noting for yours.
		
Click to expand...




Ethan said:



			At last we agree on something.
		
Click to expand...

As there is no smiley I'll take that as a personal slur, can you award yourself 3 infractions points, and, I'm serious!


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			UKIP have such a great way with words 

*Ukip's Chris Pain, leader of the opposition at Lincs Council and the partyâ€™s East Midlands regional chairman, wrote: â€œHave you noticed that if you *rearrange the letters in â€˜illegal *immigrantsâ€™, and add just a few more letters, it spells, â€˜Go home you free-loading, benefit-grabbing, resource-sucking, baby-making, non-English-speaking ********* and take those other hairy-faced, sandal-wearing, bomb-making, camel-riding, goat-********, raghead ******** with you.â€™â€


Mr Pain has also *objected to foreign doctors working in the NHS.

Last May he posted a story about a Hungarian medic who bungled an operation on a four-year-old boy in Manchester, and wrote: â€œWe donâ€™t want them taking all the jobs in the local community and we certainly donâ€™t want them working in our hospitals!â€

Peter Entwistle, party chairman in Bury, Greater Manchester, labelled President Barack Obama a Muslim, writing: â€œI bet heâ€™s a closet â€˜Imamâ€™ as well!

"If I ever see him on a Greyhound bus wearing a rucksack, Iâ€™m getting off!!â€

The partyâ€™s deputy chairman in Scotland, Misty Thackeray, â€œlikedâ€ a Facebook group claiming â€œpaedophilia is part of Islamic traditionâ€.

He also praised far-right Dutch politician Geert Wilders, a self-*confessed â€œhater of Islamâ€.

Recommending Mr Wildersâ€™ new book, he said: â€œGeert is great ...(peace be upon him.. lol) ..!â€

Meanwhile Tiggs Keywood-*Wainwright, a Ukip councillor in Boston, Lincs, complained about mosques being built in â€œquintessentially Englishâ€ Cambridge. â€œIs nowhere sacred for the Brits in Britain any more?â€ she wrote.

â€œBottom line is we have too many muslims in this country!â€

*

Click to expand...

Digging the bottom there!   I guess it's possible to rake out silly comments by councillors of all parties.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Digging the bottom there!   I guess it's possible to rake out silly comments by councillors of all parties.
		
Click to expand...

Away you go and rake out some comments that will match those from the high ranking officials from the other parties 

And what do you think of this link to this far right Polish group that Bluewolf has mentioned ?


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Ok Socketrocket. I've raised the issue twice and it's been ignored on both occasions..

What is your opinion on UKIP's new political allies in Europe? The Polish "Congress of the new Right" party..

Here is a small sample of their political views...

In July, he declared in English that the minimum wage should be â€œdestroyedâ€ and said that â€œfour million nixxxrsâ€ lost their jobs in the US as a result of the US president John F Kennedy signing a bill on the minimum wage in 1961.

Korwin-Mikke has also called for the vote to be taken away from women, has claimed that the difference between rape and consensual sex was â€œvery subtleâ€ and has said that Adolf Hitler was â€œprobably not aware that Jews were being exterminatedâ€.

When Korwin-Mikke tried to form an alliance with the French BNP, Marine Le Pen claimed that they were just too extreme.  

So, multiple choice question.. Which one has Mr Farage sold out for money..

a, His principles
b, His morals
c, His own Grandmother..

Note, apologies for the x'd out word above. It's a direct quote from a political ally of a party that several people on here support..




Click to expand...

Mr 'Bluewolf' Sir, I am not a spokesman for UKIP and have no intention of defending them or their operations.   I think I have stated here before that I am a Conservative and slightly right of centre (Someone once said here I was right of Genghis Khan, although I would say definitely of Hacker Khan )     My comments regarding UKIP is that in my uneducated opinion they are a force to be reckoned with and those here that brush them off as some form of protest vote are a little deluded.    I have asked people that say they are a protest vote to explain what voters are protesting about but have not received a reasonable explanation.  I would suggest that its due to the other main parties not clarifying how they will deal with the issues causing their concern (I have outlined these a number of times now).

Time will reveal the outcomes and I think many will be surprised how well UKIP will do next year, I would even hazard a guess they will be strong enough to be the Government makers.   I hope this is wrong and the Tories can be true to their roots such that there is a turn of tide in their direction but I doubt it as the likes of Cameron is to Liberal for me.

If I am wrong then I will admit it after the election, in a way I hope I have to.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Away you go and rake out some comments that will match those from the high ranking officials from the other parties 

And what do you think of this link to this far right Polish group that Bluewolf has mentioned ?
		
Click to expand...

I have better ways of spending a few hours than  googling the interweb to find snippets to support a biased opinion.   Maybe you can do it for me.

Regarding the alliance, I think nothing of it.   Catch up!


----------



## ColchesterFC (Oct 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Away you go and rake out some comments that will match those from the high ranking officials from the other parties
		
Click to expand...

How about Conservative MP Patrick Mercer who had to stand down after saying "You donâ€™t look like a soldier to me. You look like a bloody Jew" to an undercover reporter?

Or Aidan Burley (Tory) who had to stand down after arranging a Nazi themed stag party in France?

Or maybe Diane Abbott (Labour) who said "White people love playing 'divide & rule" in response to criticism of the Stephen Lawrence investigation.

David Wrd (LibDem) who said "The big question is - if I lived in Gaza would I fire a rocket into Israel? - probably yes"

Sir Gerald Howarth (Tory) who said that "he believed Enoch Powell, the late author of a notoriously anti-immigration speech from 1968, was correct in his views."

Lord Freud saying that disabled people didn't deserve the minimum wage.

And then there's George Galloway as both a Labour and independent MP.

There are unpleasant people in all the parties not just UKIP (and I'm not a UKIP voter before that gets suggested) and it's easy to find quotes like the ones above to back this up.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

There you go then Phil 10 minutes on Google.   Not difficult is it.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/293840/Fury-as-Labour-MP-Diane-Abbott-sends-stupid-and-crass-tweet
https://tompride.wordpress.com/2013...e-nasty-party-is-still-just-as-nasty-as-ever/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ibe-at-female-cabinet-appointees-9612064.html
http://crashbangwallace.com/2012/02/16/the-labour-councillor-who-likes-ira-bombings/


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2014)

All perfect examples why there is not one single party that are worthy of a vote from anyone

They are low , they are untrustworthy , they have no morals and they shame the country


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Away you go and rake out some comments that will match those from the high ranking officials from the other parties 

And what do you think of this link to this far right Polish group that Bluewolf has mentioned ?
		
Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



			All perfect examples why there is not one single party that are worthy of a vote from anyone

They are low , they are untrustworthy , they have no morals and they shame the country
		
Click to expand...

But you decided to single out UKIP for your previous vitriol.   Was that a misjudgement or deliberate?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			But you decided to single out UKIP for your previous vitriol.   Was that a misjudgement or deliberate?
		
Click to expand...

I believe this thread is about UKIP hence why I posted about UKIP to keep it on the subject of UKIP in the UKIP thread 

When a thread starts about the other parties I will then "single" them out in their relevant threads


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Away you go and rake out some comments that will match those from the high ranking officials from the other parties
		
Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



			I believe this thread is about UKIP hence why I posted about UKIP to keep it on the subject of UKIP in the UKIP thread 

When a thread starts about the other parties I will then "single" them out in their relevant threads
		
Click to expand...

No Phil!   Just read what you said above, you asked me to go away and rake out some comments that match from other parties.   Come on Phil, admit you got this one wrong.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2014)

Got what wrong exactky ?

I made a post about UKIP in the thread about UKIP ?

Is that wrong ?


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Away you go and rake out some comments that will match those from the high ranking officials from the other parties 

And what do you think of this link to this far right Polish group that Bluewolf has mentioned ?
		
Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



			Got what wrong exactky ?

I made a post about UKIP in the thread about UKIP ?

Is that wrong ?
		
Click to expand...

Thought thats what you would say!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Thought thats what you would say!
		
Click to expand...


That doesn't really answer what I got wrong ?


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That doesn't really answer what I got wrong ?
		
Click to expand...

Iv'e replied to that one ad-nauseam!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Iv'e replied to that one ad-nauseam!
		
Click to expand...

You haven't really because you don't have an answer - but not the first time or the last time :thup:

Anyway back to Farage and UKIP

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/6028346


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You haven't really because you don't have an answer - but not the first time or the last time :thup:

Anyway back to Farage and UKIP

http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/6028346

Click to expand...

I cant be bothered to discuss it anymore with you.  You wont or cant admit you made an error and every time I point out where you did it you just ignore it and repeat your previous comments.   If you dont want to believe me then read post 316.


----------



## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			That doesn't really answer what I got wrong ?
		
Click to expand...

Dress it any way you like Phil, you asked him to go away and find evidence of what the other parties were/are like. He did so, and you deflected and chose to ignore it by focusing back on UKIP. Your implication, in originally asking Socket, is pretty clear... you're busted.


----------



## Tashyboy (Oct 25, 2014)

What i will say before  I cuddle up to Missis tash (for an extra hour) is that what I find it interesting/amusing that that two (educated) people. One who is disillusioned with politics, and one who is a right wing Tory, both agree that UKIP have something to offer but fail to agree with one another what exactly that is.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			What i will say before  I cuddle up to Missis tash (for an extra hour) is that what I find it interesting/amusing that that two (educated) people. One who is disillusioned with politics, and one who is a right wing Tory, *both agree that UKIP have something to offer* but fail to agree with one another what exactly that is.
		
Click to expand...

And where exactly did we agree on that


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			Dress it any way you like Phil, you asked him to go away and find evidence of what the other parties were/are like. He did so, and you deflected and chose to ignore it by focusing back on UKIP. Your implication, in originally asking Socket, is pretty clear... you're busted.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry I forgot where I said to find evidence of other parties 

If people want to go rake up other parties then away they go 

As I said in my first post - this thread is about UKIP not the Tories nor Labour - not once have I suggested or stated they don't have people who have said stuff

I posted a number of posts showing several high ranking members of UKIP with their bigot racist comments - it appears the defence of that is "Well look at the other parties" - no I'll look at other parties in a thread about them

So whilst a party is littered with bigots and racists I will never understand why anyone would vote for them


----------



## Tashyboy (Oct 25, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			And where exactly did we agree on that 

Click to expand...

Post 314 force to be reckoned with etc


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry I forgot where I said to find evidence of other parties 

If people want to go rake up other parties then away they go 

As I said in my first post - this thread is about UKIP not the Tories nor Labour - not once have I suggested or stated they don't have people who have said stuff

I posted a number of posts showing several high ranking members of UKIP with their bigot racist comments - it appears the defence of that is "Well look at the other parties" - no I'll look at other parties in a thread about them

So whilst a party is littered with bigots and racists I will never understand why anyone would vote for them
		
Click to expand...

Stop backtracking and admit you were wrong.      You asked me to go and find comments by other parties similar to the UKIP ones.   AND most of your quotes were by town councillors, not 'High Ranking Members'

I can understand someone who admits they were wrong but you are something else Phil!


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Stop backtracking and admit you were wrong.      You asked me to go and find comments by other parties similar to the UKIP ones.   AND most of your quotes were by town councillors, not 'High Ranking Members'

I can understand someone who admits they were wrong but you are something else Phil!
		
Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



			I cant be bothered to discuss it anymore with you.
		
Click to expand...

Oops


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Oops 

Click to expand...

I thought it silly to keep pointing out where you had made a mistake and you backtracking.  Seems I am not the only one to notice that.

I cant be bothered Phil but you dont give up.    I know if this continues it will lead to infractions being issued so for the sake of civility I wish to stop pointing out your error.


----------



## Hobbit (Oct 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry I forgot where I said to find evidence of other parties 

If people want to go rake up other parties then away they go 

As I said in my first post - this thread is about UKIP not the Tories nor Labour - not once have I suggested or stated they don't have people who have said stuff

I posted a number of posts showing several high ranking members of UKIP with their bigot racist comments - it appears the defence of that is "Well look at the other parties" - no I'll look at other parties in a thread about them

So whilst a party is littered with bigots and racists I will never understand why anyone would vote for them
		
Click to expand...

Your first post, post #14, doesn't mention anything about "not Tories nor Labour." And nor does your second post, post #29. And Socket wasn't defending anything, he was sourcing the info you asked him to "go away and find."

Double busted...:rofl:


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2014)

This is a good blog - certainly highlights a few issues 

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100261889/ukip-are-now-a-racist-party/


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 25, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			Your first post, post #14, doesn't mention anything about "not Tories nor Labour." And nor does your second post, post #29. And Socket wasn't defending anything, he was sourcing the info you asked him to "go away and find."

Double busted...:rofl:
		
Click to expand...

Edit: If people wish to find different meanings to what in attempting to post then away they go


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			This is a good blog - certainly highlights a few issues 

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100261889/ukip-are-now-a-racist-party/

Click to expand...

Anyone can look on Tinternet and find a thread to support their personal views.   It's so much better to make a discussion based on your own life experiences.   Dont think I will even bother to look for a counter thread as its just a waste of time


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Edit: If people wish to find different meanings to what in attempting to post then away they go
		
Click to expand...


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 25, 2014)

I really have decided again not to continue in a debate with Phil.   It will only end in infractions and not worth it.


----------



## Hobbit (Oct 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Away you go and rake out some comments that will match those from the high ranking officials from the other parties 

And what do you think of this link to this far right Polish group that Bluewolf has mentioned ?
		
Click to expand...




Hobbit said:



			Dress it any way you like Phil, you asked him to go away and find evidence of what the other parties were/are like. He did so, and you deflected and chose to ignore it by focusing back on UKIP. Your implication, in originally asking Socket, is pretty clear... you're busted.
		
Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry I forgot where I said to find evidence of other parties 

If people want to go rake up other parties then away they go 

As I said in my first post - this thread is about UKIP not the Tories nor Labour - not once have I suggested or stated they don't have people who have said stuff

I posted a number of posts showing several high ranking members of UKIP with their bigot racist comments - it appears the defence of that is "Well look at the other parties" - no I'll look at other parties in a thread about them

So whilst a party is littered with bigots and racists I will never understand why anyone would vote for them
		
Click to expand...




Hobbit said:



			Your first post, post #14, doesn't mention anything about "not Tories nor Labour." And nor does your second post, post #29. And Socket wasn't defending anything, he was sourcing the info you asked him to "go away and find."

Double busted...:rofl:
		
Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



			Edit: If people wish to find different meanings to what in attempting to post then away they go
		
Click to expand...

Not different meanings, direct quotes of what you said... treble busted...:rofl:


----------



## Father_Ted (Oct 26, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I cant be bothered to discuss it anymore  with you.
		
Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



			I cant be bothered Phil
		
Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



			Dont think I will even  bother
		
Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:





Click to expand...




SocketRocket said:



			I really have decided again
		
Click to expand...

Nae bother then

Good to see you stick to your decisions

I bet your Pre Shot Routine is a doozy

Like two salesmen talking in a pub. Mr Lastword and Mr Finalword


----------



## Fish (Oct 26, 2014)

Father_Ted said:



			Nae bother then

Good to see you stick to your decisions

I bet your Pre Shot Routine is a doozy

Like two salesmen talking in a pub. Mr Lastword and Mr Finalword
		
Click to expand...

:thup:


----------



## Ethan (Oct 26, 2014)

Fish said:



			As there is no smiley I'll take that as a personal slur, can you award yourself 3 infractions points, and, I'm serious!
		
Click to expand...

Nice editing. I am sure that is a breach of the Terms and Conditions but I just couldn't be bothered.


----------



## Fish (Oct 26, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Nice editing. I am sure that is a breach of the Terms and Conditions but I just couldn't be bothered.
		
Click to expand...

I haven't edited anything so get your facts right, I responded to your "At last we agree on something" post, I had simply left 2 "tics" on previous quoted posts so you do what you like Mr Clevercloggs, its a shame we can't "ignore" mods.


----------



## Ethan (Oct 26, 2014)

Fish said:



			I haven't edited anything so get your facts right, I responded to your "At last we agree on something" post, I had simply left 2 "tics" on previous quoted posts so you do what you like Mr Clevercloggs, its a shame we can't "ignore" mods.
		
Click to expand...

That is blatantly untrue. Your previous post selectively and ordered quoted stuff I wrote to give an intentionally misleading picture of what I was agreeing to. With that sort of disregard for accuracy or truth and slanderous style, maybe you should consider standing as a UKIP candidate. You seem to have the necessary credentials. 

By the way, I wish you would ignore me, or better still, the whole forum. I will adopt this practice for you with immediate effect.


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 26, 2014)

Father_Ted said:



			Nae bother then

Good to see you stick to your decisions

I bet your Pre Shot Routine is a doozy

Like two salesmen talking in a pub. Mr Lastword and Mr Finalword
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Mr Selective Editing!


----------



## Father_Ted (Oct 26, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Thanks Mr Selective Editing!
		
Click to expand...

No bother Mr LastandFinalword 

Had to be. The rest was just repetitive point scoring

Dont bother replying to this post either though I would bet you cant resist


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2014)

Father_Ted said:



			No bother Mr LastandFinalword 

Had to be. The rest was just repetitive point scoring

Dont bother replying to this post either though I would bet you cant resist
		
Click to expand...

welcome to the forum Father_Ted

Can see you being popular


----------



## Father_Ted (Oct 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			welcome to the forum Father_Ted

Can see you being popular 

Click to expand...

Thanks

I didnt realise wind up was so important to golf

Not sure what you mean by popular. 

Should I take false offense as seems to be the style in this discussion 

I would offer my views on UKIP but that doesnt seem to be what this discussion is about so I wont bother


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2014)

Father_Ted said:



			Thanks

I didnt realise wind up was so important to golf

Not sure what you mean by popular. 

Should I take false offense as seems to be the style in this discussion 

I would offer my views on UKIP but that doesnt seem to be what this discussion is about so I wont bother
		
Click to expand...


No offence meant so hopefully no offence is taken :thup:

Hope you enjoy yout time on the forum :thup: 

Its not all like this


----------



## JCW (Oct 26, 2014)

Just a few words , My Father , (36 years today he left us ) and my Aunt and many others fought in world war 2 so we are free today from the likes of the Nazis and choose how and where to live our lives , UKIP is just a passing of time , they are only good for a protest vote for those that lack education and are easy to lead . In fact they are the BNP in another form so I wont be wasting anymore on this lot .


Now as for leaving the EU , I will vote for that 
why 
 Because Britain does not need Europe like they need us and thats a fact 

Liverpool Phil admit he is wrong ,  No that i got to see , whoosh .......was that a flying pig that just flew by 

This thread should be closed as we are seeing sides that will only get worst and lead too .....................?


----------



## jp5 (Oct 26, 2014)

JCW said:



			Just a few words , My Father , (36 years today he left us ) and my Aunt and many others fought in world war 2 so we are free today from the likes of the Nazis and choose how and where to live our lives , UKIP is just a passing of time , they are only good for a protest vote for those that lack education and are easy to lead . In fact they are the BNP in another form so I wont be wasting anymore on this lot .


Now as for leaving the EU , I will vote for that 
why 
 Because Britain does not need Europe like they need us and thats a fact 

Liverpool Phil admit he is wrong ,  No that i got to see , whoosh .......was that a flying pig that just flew by 

This thread should be closed as we are seeing sides that will only get worst and lead too .....................?
		
Click to expand...

Comparing UKIP to Nazis is a little strong. Do you pick up your info from UKIP directly or are you lead by other sources?


----------



## JCW (Oct 26, 2014)

jp5 said:



			Comparing UKIP to Nazis is a little strong. Do you pick up your info from UKIP directly or are you lead by other sources?
		
Click to expand...

If you have met me you will know i am my own man , I am too the point , call a spade a spade and honest and family man that respects things like you should always vote as many people do not have that right and many died so we can have that right and many other things .  Guess what I am saying is I know what is rubbish .  UKIP is not for me as look deeper and you will see it , if you can`t then its one of 2 things , you don`t want too or you just not smart enough, I will leave it at that


----------



## jp5 (Oct 26, 2014)

JCW said:



			If you have met me you will know i am my own man , I am too the point , call a spade a spade and honest and family man that respects things like you should always vote as many people do not have that right and many died so we can have that right and many other things .  Guess what I am saying is I know what is rubbish .  UKIP is not for me as look deeper and you will see it , if you can`t then its one of 2 things , you don`t want too or you just not smart enough, I will leave it at that 

Click to expand...

I respect your opinion but you shouldn't be insulting other peoples intelligence.


----------



## JCW (Oct 26, 2014)

jp5 said:



			I respect your opinion but you shouldn't be insulting other peoples intelligence.
		
Click to expand...

I have not targeted anyone , your view is your view , I have mine and UKIP is not something i would vote for , even if i did i would not be open about it as some things in life its best you keep to yourself and the reasons for that are well known why you need to do that


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2014)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29776965

So should we continue with the European Warrant ?

Seems like a good idea to me and doesnt give criminals a hiding place in the UK


----------



## Papas1982 (Oct 26, 2014)

JCW said:



			If you have met me you will know i am my own man , I am too the point , *call a spade a spade* and honest and family man that respects things like you should always vote as many people do not have that right and many died so we can have that right and many other things .  Guess what I am saying is I know what is rubbish .  UKIP is not for me as look deeper and you will see it , if you can`t then its one of 2 things , you don`t want too or you just not smart enough, I will leave it at that 

Click to expand...

Ironic that in a discussion comparing Nazis bnp and ukip you use that turn of phrase...............


----------



## JCW (Oct 26, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Ironic that in a discussion comparing Nazis bnp and ukip you use that turn of phrase...............
		
Click to expand...

I will pass on UKIP , not worth my time talking about Bigots , they are whatever you want them to be , for me they stand for .................the


----------



## Papas1982 (Oct 26, 2014)

JCW said:



			I will pass on UKIP , not worth my time talking about Bigots , they are whatever you want them to be , for me they stand for .................the  

Click to expand...

I suggest you google the phrase you used. Then spot the irony in complaining about racist bigots.......


----------



## Ethan (Oct 26, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Ironic that in a discussion comparing Nazis bnp and ukip you use that turn of phrase...............
		
Click to expand...

Ironic that he uses an expression coined by the Ancient Greeks and imported from Europe in the 16th Century?

Irony indeed, no free movement of asylum seekers in those days. Coming over here to take our groats and marry our wenches.


----------



## Papas1982 (Oct 26, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Ironic that he uses an expression coined by the Ancient Greeks and imported from Europe in the 16th Century?

Irony indeed, no free movement of asylum seekers in those days. Coming over here to take our groats and marry our wenches.
		
Click to expand...

So I can use terms on this forum that were once fine that now have more sinister connotations? Golliwog, minstral all fine I presume?


----------



## SocketRocket (Oct 26, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			welcome to the forum Father_Ted

Can see you being popular 

Click to expand...

I believe we have seen this Ted person before somewhere.   Now who does he remind me of?   Hmmmm! is it someone who has taken a short vacation?

Wait a minute! No, cant quite place him.   Certainly has me FOXED! :thup:


----------



## Ethan (Oct 26, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			So I can use terms on this forum that were once fine that now have more sinister connotations? Golliwog, minstral all fine I presume?
		
Click to expand...

Golliwog has always had racist connotations. Calling a spade a spade referred to digging implements. Minstral (sic) may refer to a number of things, including a candy coated chocolate (I saw some on sale in the cinema today), a travelling musician and others. Depends on context. Best not to use words in a context which could be misconstrued.


----------



## MikeH (Oct 26, 2014)

forumers
keep this thread on track and avoid getting overly personal in the responses please or it'll be closed


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Oct 26, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I believe we have seen this Ted person before somewhere.   Now who does he remind me of?   Hmmmm! is it someone who has taken a short vacation?

Wait a minute! No, cant quite place him.   Certainly has me FOXED! :thup:
		
Click to expand...

Really ?

Creating a new account ?


----------



## Papas1982 (Oct 26, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Golliwog has always had racist connotations. Calling a spade a spade referred to digging implements. Minstral (sic) may refer to a number of things, including a candy coated chocolate (I saw some on sale in the cinema today), a travelling musician and others. Depends on context. Best not to use words in a context which could be misconstrued.
		
Click to expand...

I bow to your greater knowledge. But am curious if anyone other than yourself will have initially thought of greeks and the 16th century in reference to the 16th century. 

I always thought of G's as Jam jars but i wont go there.


----------



## MikeH (Oct 26, 2014)

thread closed


----------

