# The next PM.



## Tashyboy (May 29, 2019)

So who's it gonna be. Who is the Favourite. Does it actually show how divided the Tory party is. 11 MPs standing for PM. How does the next PM bring the party together without papering over the cracks. Does anyone actually care.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 29, 2019)

Anyone know which Tory MP's are not standing for PM's job.


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## ger147 (May 29, 2019)

Feels like the start of a series of Big Brother rather than a leadership contest to choose the next Prime Minister...


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## Imurg (May 29, 2019)

Admittedly I subconsciously switch off when politics comes on the box but I'm afraid there's a few candidates I've never heard of.....


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## JamesR (May 29, 2019)

de Pfeffel Johnson is being summonsed to court for lying during the Brexit campaign - could that affect his chances?


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## Doon frae Troon (May 29, 2019)

Johnson to stand trial for misleading the public


JamesR said:



			de Pfeffel Johnson is being summonsed to court for lying during the Brexit campaign - could that affect his chances?
		
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Not really, almost everyone knows he is a serial teller of lies .
He has been sacked twice for lying..........his supporters seem to think that is OK and will continue to support him.


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## pendodave (May 29, 2019)

I'm guessing most of them are just trying to raise their profile to try and wangle a better job with whoever gets in. Or maybe to wangle a better job with some dodgy lobbyist when they get kicked out...


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## ger147 (May 29, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It will if he's in jail ðŸ¤£ , I'm glad some one is being held to account for the brexit BS bus.


702
		
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There isn't a snowball's chance in Hell that he'll be found guilty.


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## Tashyboy (May 29, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It will if he's in jail ðŸ¤£ , I'm glad some one is being held to account for the brexit BS bus.


702
		
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ðŸ¤” wasn't the guy who you want as the next PM co driver of the BS Brexit bus.


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## robinthehood (May 29, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			ðŸ¤” wasn't the guy who you want as the next PM co driver of the BS Brexit bus.
		
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As ever I have no idea wtf  the above rammel is about. 

44


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## IanM (May 29, 2019)

Looking down the list, I can't see any decent leaders, just career politicians.  Actually, that goes across all parts of the House


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## Tashyboy (May 29, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			As ever I have no idea wtf  the above rammel is about.

44
		
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So the first response on this thread re who will be next prime minister was from you. You said Boris Johsnson. Then you said lock the thread. By that I understand you want him To be the next pm. 
You then said you are glad someone is being held accountable for the Brexit BS bus. Wasn't that the very person you want as PM. 
It helps if you read your own posts. ðŸ‘


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## JamesR (May 29, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			So the first response on this thread re who will be next prime minister was from you. You said Boris Johsnson. Then you said lock the thread. By that I understand you want him To be the next pm.
You then said you are glad someone is being held accountable for the Brexit BS bus. Wasn't that the very person you want as PM.
It helps if you read your own posts. ðŸ‘
		
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Try reading the question and then put the answers into context from there - you didn't ask for who people wanted as PM, just who we thought would win. As such, when Robininthehood answered Boris Johnson, he was stating that he thought he'd be the next PM, not that he wanted him to be the next PM.
It helps if you read your own posts


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## drdel (May 29, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It will if he's in jail ðŸ¤£ , I'm glad some one is being held to account for the brexit BS bus.


702
		
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If the UK Remains the statement may/will come true!


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## robinthehood (May 29, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			So the first response on this thread re who will be next prime minister was from you. You said Boris Johsnson. Then you said lock the thread. By that I understand you want him To be the next pm.
You then said you are glad someone is being held accountable for the Brexit BS bus. Wasn't that the very person you want as PM.
It helps if you read your own posts. ðŸ‘
		
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You aks who's it gonna be, I say Boris Johnson. As  He is the massive favourite. 
Anything else you gleam from my post is up to you. 

1002


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## Tashyboy (May 29, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Try reading the question and then put the answers into context from there - you didn't ask for who people wanted as PM, just who we thought would win. As such, when Robininthehood answered Boris Johnson, he was stating that he thought he'd be the next PM, not that he wanted him to be the next PM.
It helps if you read your own posts 

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JamesR said:



			Try reading the question and then put the answers into context from there - you didn't ask for who people wanted as PM, just who we thought would win. As such, when Robininthehood answered Boris Johnson, he was stating that he thought he'd be the next PM, not that he wanted him to be the next PM.
It helps if you read your own posts 

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So just help me out here. Quote "Boris Johnson. Close thread". And from that I am to deduce that RH actually cares, or he actually wants him to be MP, or he actually thinks he will bring the party together. There's a lot of gaps in there


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## JamesR (May 29, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



*So who's it gonna be*. *Who is the Favourite*. Does it actually show how divided the Tory party is. 11 MPs standing for PM. How does the next PM bring the party together without papering over the cracks. Does anyone actually care.
		
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Does it say "Who do *you* want to be the next PM"?

No, it says "*So who's it gonna be*. *Who is the Favourite*..."

It helps if you read your own posts


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## Doon frae Troon (May 29, 2019)

This crazy nation has just gone a stage crazier.
We are going to have 'TV Debates' for the Tory leadership which of course only 150,000 mainly English 'home counties' folk can vote for.
Remember this is the party that finished 5th in the recent EU elections


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## Hacker Khan (May 29, 2019)

Just to make it clear for the hard of thinking I think it will be Boris as he'll get the vote from the elderly Telegraph reading little Engenders that make up the majority of the Tory party membership.  As for who Id like then probably Rory Stewart out of the ones that have declared as he's seems the least bonkers and occasionally says some sensible things. But it's all relative.


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## Fade and Die (May 29, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Just to make it clear for the hard of thinking I think it will be Boris as he'll get the vote from the elderly Telegraph reading little Engenders that make up the majority of the Tory party membership.  As for who Id like then probably *Rory Stewart* out of the ones that have declared as he's seems the least bonkers and occasionally says some sensible things. But it's all relative.
		
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Well he does look like a corpse so maybe itâ€™s appropriate he leads the conservatives.


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## SocketRocket (May 29, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Just to make it clear for the hard of thinking I think it will be Boris as he'll get the vote from the elderly Telegraph reading little Engenders that make up the majority of the Tory party membership.  As for who Id like then probably Rory Stewart out of the ones that have declared as he's seems the least bonkers and occasionally says some sensible things. But it's all relative.
		
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Just as well we have you to do our thinking for us.


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## Hobbit (May 30, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Just to make it clear for the hard of thinking I think it will be Boris as he'll get the vote from the elderly Telegraph reading little Engenders that make up the majority of the Tory party membership.  As for who Id like then probably Rory Stewart out of the ones that have declared as he's seems the least bonkers and occasionally says some sensible things. But it's all relative.
		
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Is that the same Boris Johnson that was elected Mayor of London, and re-elected to the biggest Remain and cosmopolitan area in the UK?

Can't say I like the guy. I find him an enigma. On the one hand I wouldn't trust him to man a school crossing but on the other he seems teflon coated to some of the gaffes he's dropped, whilst moving in circles that you wouldn't expect a buffoon to be in.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 30, 2019)

https://twitter.com/hashtag/PermissionFromSajid?src=hash

Tories just can't help themselves helping the Scottish Independence movement


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## chrisd (May 30, 2019)

Someone had to say it, perfectly correct too, it should NOT be allowed


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## Crazyface (May 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Is that the same Boris Johnson that was elected Mayor of London, and re-elected to the biggest Remain and cosmopolitan area in the UK?

Can't say I like the guy. I find him an enigma. On the one hand I wouldn't trust him to man a school crossing but on the other he seems teflon coated to some of the gaffes he's dropped, whilst moving in circles that you wouldn't expect a buffoon to be in.
		
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Just about sums BJ up. Oh and LOL!

Esther McVey would be my choice BUT I think that Malthouse fella looks and sounds the part. so I'll say Malthouse with McVey as his no 2


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## SocketRocket (May 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Is that the same Boris Johnson that was elected Mayor of London, and re-elected to the biggest Remain and cosmopolitan area in the UK?

Can't say I like the guy. I find him an enigma. On the one hand I wouldn't trust him to man a school crossing but on the other he seems teflon coated to some of the gaffes he's dropped, whilst moving in circles that you wouldn't expect a buffoon to be in.
		
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I was in London visiting my Daughter in Chiswick the weekend and I am  impressed with the Boris Bike scheme where you can pick up a bike almost anywhere, rent it with an App and drop it off at the end of your journey.  If that was brought in by a Buffoon then it's a very smart one.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I was in London visiting my Daughter in Chiswick the weekend and I am  impressed with the Boris Bike scheme where you can pick up a bike almost anywhere, rent it with an App and drop it off at the end of your journey.  If that was brought in by a Buffoon then it's a very smart one.
		
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Unfortunately the idea was Ken Livingstoneâ€™s and Boris kept the plan going when he became Mayor.
Damn those Labour Mayorâ€™s and their good ideas.


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## Lord Tyrion (May 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I was in London visiting my Daughter in Chiswick the weekend and I am  impressed with the Boris Bike scheme where you can pick up a bike almost anywhere, rent it with an App and drop it off at the end of your journey.  If that was brought in by a Buffoon then it's a very smart one.
		
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pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately the idea was Ken Livingstoneâ€™s and Boris kept the plan going when he became Mayor.
Damn those Labour Mayorâ€™s and their good ideas.
		
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Quite true about the bikes. Boris took the credit for a few things that worked out well. He does like to gloss over some of the failures, water canon being the most expensive I suspect.

Those schemes have also been brought into other cities. Quite a few have stopped as too many bikes have ended up in canals, hedges etc. Shame really, it is a nice idea.


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## JamesR (May 30, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Quite true about the bikes. Boris took the credit for a few things that worked out well. *He does like to gloss over some of the failures, water canon being the most expensive I suspect.*

Those schemes have also been brought into other cities. Quite a few have stopped as too many bikes have ended up in canals, hedges etc. Shame really, it is a nice idea.
		
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I was under the impression the Garden Bridge may have cost of few pennies?


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## MegaSteve (May 30, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Quite true about the bikes. Boris took the credit for a few things that worked out well. He does like to gloss over some of the failures, water canon being the most expensive I suspect.

Those schemes have also been brought into other cities. Quite a few have stopped as too many bikes have ended up in canals, hedges etc. Shame really, it is a nice idea.
		
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I suspect the losses on the water cannons pale into insignificance against the cost of all the deputy mayors he appointed whilst in office... Creating more bureaucracy seems to be the only thing bureaucracy is good at...

Sadly, Sadiq has failed to dispense of those positions...


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## Doon frae Troon (May 30, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Just to make it clear for the hard of thinking I think it will be Boris as he'll get the vote from the elderly Telegraph reading little Engenders that make up the majority of the Tory party membership.  As for who Id like then probably Rory Stewart out of the ones that have declared as he's seems the least bonkers and occasionally says some sensible things. But it's all relative.
		
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Great campaign logo
Vote Rory the Tory....he is the least bonkers of all the other leaders.
I can see folk liking that.


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## User62651 (May 30, 2019)

Where are Rees-Mogg, Francois, Baker, Bone and other potential ERG 'leaders', time to step up gents surely? You've been mouthing off at poor Theresa for long enough.

Or are they all going to conveniently back Boris, a man who was pro EU not so long ago. So they can hang the blame for no 'No Deal' around his neck, when the time comes.


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## Hacker Khan (May 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I was in London visiting my Daughter in Chiswick the weekend and I am  impressed with the Boris Bike scheme where you can pick up a bike almost anywhere, rent it with an App and drop it off at the end of your journey.  If that was brought in by a Buffoon then it's a very smart one.
		
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Yes Ken was a smart baffoon. https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/feb/09/transport.world1


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## Khamelion (May 30, 2019)

Not really bothered, just so long as the person has a spine, bollox the size of melons, I include ladies in that comment, Mrs Thatcher had bigger balls than most of the spineless muppets that call themselves politicians these days


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## Doon frae Troon (May 30, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Where are Rees-Mogg, Francois, Baker, Bone and other potential ERG 'leaders', time to step up gents surely? You've been mouthing off at poor Theresa for long enough.

Or are they all going to conveniently back Boris, a man who was pro EU not so long ago. So they can hang the blame for no 'No Deal' around his neck, when the time comes.

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Spot on..â€¦...the cowards at the back egging on the thick necks at the front to do their dirty work.
I'm wonder what Blackadder would make of the Brexit fiasco.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 30, 2019)

Oh dear it is all starting to unravel...â€¦â€¦.Rory the Tory takes opium and the anti Scots guy who is a 'last minute' candidate sorted out his bids twitter account in MARCH.


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## IanM (May 30, 2019)

So, who will be in prison first?  Boris or the guy bringing the case?

And Doon, you accusing someone of being "_anti" a section of the UK _has quite made my day.


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## clubchamp98 (May 30, 2019)

IanM said:



			So, who will be in prison first?  Boris or the guy bringing the case?

And Doon, you accusing someone of being "_anti" a section of the UK _has quite made my day.
		
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If all politicians who donâ€™t tell the truth are taken to court.
We will need to build more prisons.


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## JamesR (May 30, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			If all politicians who donâ€™t tell the truth are taken to court.
We will need to build more prisons.
		
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If the Tories remain in charge there wonâ€™t be enough police officers to arrest them ðŸ‘®ðŸ»â€â™‚ï¸


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## SocketRocket (May 30, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Yes Ken was a smart baffoon. https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/feb/09/transport.world1

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He was at that.  He did talk about a bike scheme but Boris actually produced it. I guess that's why they are called 'Boris bikes'  'Kenny bikes' somehow doesn't quite cut it


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## SocketRocket (May 30, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Where are Rees-Mogg, Francois, Baker, Bone and other potential ERG 'leaders', time to step up gents surely? You've been mouthing off at poor Theresa for long enough.

Or are they all going to conveniently back Boris, a man who was pro EU not so long ago. So they can hang the blame for no 'No Deal' around his neck, when the time comes.

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So cynical.    No wonder there's no possibility of compromise


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## Hobbit (May 30, 2019)

IanM said:



			So, who will be in prison first?  Boris or the guy bringing the case?

And Doon, you accusing someone of being "_anti" a section of the UK _has quite made my day.
		
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Please, please, please can you add Trump to that list.



clubchamp98 said:



			If all politicians who donâ€™t tell the truth are taken to court.
We will need to build more prisons.
		
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As much as the case appears to be so obviously politically motivated I would love it if it added some restraint to the lies/half truths/omissions they seem to live by.


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## Deleted member 16999 (May 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			He was at that.  He did talk about a bike scheme but Boris actually produced it. I guess that's why they are called 'Boris bikes'  'Kenny bikes' somehow doesn't quite cut it 

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Garbage, Livingstone publicly launched the scheme in 2008 after starting the idea in 2007.
The bikes launched in 2010 when the boris the tory baffoon was Mayor, hence the term boris bikes, he simply continued with all the work and consultations that had already been put in place.


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## clubchamp98 (May 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Please, please, please can you add Trump to that list.



As much as the case appears to be so obviously politically motivated I would love it if it added some restraint to the lies/half truths/omissions they seem to live by.
		
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Yes agree they should be called out for lying , but this was three years ago .
Why would a businessman wait three years to accuse someone of lying.


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## Hobbit (May 30, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes agree they should be called out for lying , but this was three years ago .
Why would a businessman wait three years to accuse someone of lying.
		
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Like I said, its politically motivated, and a bit disingenuous because of that, but I actually agree with it. Do you want a PM who is a liar. They all do it to a greater or lesser extent but he's one of the worst. Do you really want him at the head of the table?


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## clubchamp98 (May 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Like I said, its politically motivated, and a bit disingenuous because of that, but I actually agree with it. Do you want a PM who is a liar. They all do it to a greater or lesser extent but he's one of the worst. Do you really want him at the head of the table?
		
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No !
But who hasnâ€™t told a few porkies that makes them ok


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## Hobbit (May 30, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			No !
But who hasnâ€™t told a few porkies that makes them ok
		
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I agree, but when does the lie repeat lie cycle end? Somewhere/sometime it needs to change. Out of all this sorry mess, if honesty in politics improves its a good start.


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## clubchamp98 (May 30, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I agree, but when does the lie repeat lie cycle end? Somewhere/sometime it needs to change. Out of all this sorry mess, if honesty in politics improves its a good start.
		
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Not holding my breath.


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## robinthehood (May 31, 2019)

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/poli...such-a-dreadful-liar-says-gove-20190530186128


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## SocketRocket (May 31, 2019)

robinthehood said:



https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/poli...such-a-dreadful-liar-says-gove-20190530186128

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## User62651 (May 31, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			So cynical.    No wonder there's no possibility of compromise 

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Surely it is the ERG who need to compromise of all the groups with influence, yet all they seem to do is undermine their own Govt?


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## JamesR (May 31, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I agree, but when does the lie repeat lie cycle end? Somewhere/sometime it needs to change. Out of all this sorry mess, if honesty in politics improves its a good start.
		
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I agree Brian, it's getting to the point where we will go into elections not knowing what is and isn't true.
It's already getting too Orwellian/Trumpian for my liking.

If both sides just decide to tell lies about their opponents, and their own policies/views etc then christ knows what will happen.

When a politician makes a statement, is shown that statement, and still denies making it, we are in trouble!


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## clubchamp98 (May 31, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I agree Brian, it's getting to the point where we will go into elections not knowing what is and isn't true.
It's already getting too Orwellian/Trumpian for my liking.

If both sides just decide to tell lies about their opponents, and their own policies/views etc then christ knows what will happen.

When a politician makes a statement, is shown that statement, and still denies making it, we are in trouble!
		
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Thatâ€™s why a second referendum wonâ€™t work.
Whoever loses accuses the others of lying


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## Doon frae Troon (May 31, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I agree Brian, it's getting to the point where we will go into elections not knowing what is and isn't true.
It's already getting too Orwellian/Trumpian for my liking.

If both sides just decide to tell lies about their opponents, and their own policies/views etc then christ knows what will happen.

When a politician makes a statement, is shown that statement, and still denies making it, we are in trouble!
		
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Are we not there already.

Jo Swinson telling lies about University attainment by Govan High School on QT last night
I instantly new she was giving false information, the figures were so wild that she must have known they were wrong.
Still to issue an apology to acknowledge her lie.
[For listeners in rUK, Govan is the Scottish First Ministers seat and has historically been one of the poorest areas in Scotland.]


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## robinthehood (May 31, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Thatâ€™s why a second referendum wonâ€™t work.
Whoever loses accuses the others of lying
		
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Course it Will work. Leave swept to the sidelines so we can get on with what's really important in life .


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## clubchamp98 (May 31, 2019)

That will be 1-1 so whenâ€™s the playoff.


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## Hacker Khan (May 31, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I agree Brian, it's getting to the point where we will go into elections not knowing what is and isn't true.
It's already getting too Orwellian/Trumpian for my liking.

*If both sides just decide to tell lies about their opponents, and their own policies/views etc then christ knows what will happen.*

When a politician makes a statement, is shown that statement, and still denies making it, we are in trouble!
		
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Trump has shown he can lie and do any sort of things that would have got previous presidents kicked out of office and his cult like fan base just do not care.  A few politicians this side of the pond are no doubt watching with interest and waiting to try it out over here.


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## Dando (May 31, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			That will be 1-1 so whenâ€™s the playoff.
		
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If remain won, thatâ€™d be the end if it in their eyes


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## robinthehood (May 31, 2019)

Dando said:



			If remain won, thatâ€™d be the end if it in their eyes
		
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It would,  you could rustle up Tommy Robinson and few others for a protest march I guess


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## Dando (May 31, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It would,  you could rustle up Tommy Robinson and few others for a protest march I guess
		
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Why would it be the end of it?


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## clubchamp98 (May 31, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It would,  you could rustle up Tommy Robinson and few others for a protest march I guess
		
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If and itâ€™s a big IF thereâ€™s a second referendum thatâ€™s it for a lot of people ,democracy is over.
If remain win by the same margin.
Donâ€™t you think 48% of leavers have the same rights as 48% of remainers do now.
Where does it stop.

We would all want a rerun of the GE because I never voted Conservatives in.
People just donâ€™t understand Losing anymore.


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## Dando (May 31, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			If and itâ€™s a big IF thereâ€™s a second referendum thatâ€™s it for a lot of people ,democracy is over.
If remain win by the same margin.
Donâ€™t you think 48% of leavers have the same rights as 48% of remainers do now.
Where does it stop.

We would all want a rerun of the GE because I never voted Conservatives in.
People just donâ€™t understand Losing anymore.
		
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No doubt it leave won again theyâ€™d act like petulant children and throw another strop demanding yet another vote until they got their own way


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## clubchamp98 (May 31, 2019)

Dando said:



			No doubt it leave won again theyâ€™d act like petulant children and throw another strop demanding yet another vote until they got their own way
		
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Tbh I think leave would win another vote anyway!
But can you trust what your told by anyone now leave or remain.?


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## robinthehood (May 31, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			If and itâ€™s a big IF thereâ€™s a second referendum thatâ€™s it for a lot of people ,democracy is over.
If remain win by the same margin.
Donâ€™t you think 48% of leavers have the same rights as 48% of remainers do now.
Where does it stop.

We would all want a rerun of the GE because I never voted Conservatives in.
People just donâ€™t understand Losing anymore.
		
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Oh well c'est la vie


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## Hacker Khan (May 31, 2019)

Dando said:



			No doubt it leave won again theyâ€™d act like petulant children and throw another strop demanding yet another vote until they got their own way
		
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Can I just put this one to bed as it is getting a it tedious.

Most remainers and leavers accept the result of the 1st referendum and would accept leaving the EU with a deal. Remainers would not be happy, but if we left in a managed way with a good deal for both sides then ce la vie, *&&^ happens and leave got more votes.

When it comes to no deal then more remainers are a bit suspicious as that is mostly seen as a bad outcome for both sides by any sensible analysis, it is pandering to the more hard line leave extremists and it is highly debatable if that is what some of people that voted leave expected to happen.

The ever increasing calls for a 2nd referendum are IMHO, mostly just about all because the government can not get a majority and agree on what the best way to leave. If they would have sorted it then it would be game over.  Personally I was very much in the camp of being very razzed off about the result, but it is what it is, get a deal and move on.

But now it seems that there is no way we can agree a way to leave that has any sort of parliamentary majority so e are stuck and it is just sucking the oxygen out of this country where we have other things to concentrate on.  So if we still feel the great British public have sufficient insight, understanding and knowledge of the process and implications of one of the most important decisions this country has ever made, then lets put it back to them, make it so the government has to implement the result and get on with it.  And then despite your supposition, no one would be demanding another referendum.


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## Dando (May 31, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Can I just put this one to bed as it is getting a it tedious.

Most leavers accept the result of the 1st referendum and would accept leaving the EU with a deal. They would not be happy, but if we left in a managed way with a good deal for both sides then ce la vie, *&&^ happens and leave got more votes.

When it comes to no deal then more leavers are a bit suspicious as that is mostly seen as a bad outcome for both sides by any sensible analysis, it is pandering to the more hard line leave extremists and it is highly debatable if that is what some of people that voted leave expected to happen.

The ever increasing calls for a 2nd referendum are IMHO, mostly just about all because the government can not get a majority and agree on what the best way to leave. If they would have sorted it then it would be game over.  Personally I was very much in the camp of being very razzed off about the result, but it is what it is, get a deal and move on.

But now it seems that there is no way we can agree a way to leave that has any sort of parliamentary majority so e are stuck and it is just sucking the oxygen out of this country where we have other things to concentrate on.  So if we still feel the great British public have sufficient insight, understanding and knowledge of the process and implications of one of the most important decisions this country has ever made, then lets put it back to them, make it so the government has to implement the result and get on with it.  And then despite your supposition, no one would be demanding another referendum.
		
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Sorry but the kids started stropping as soon as the result was declared!


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## Dando (May 31, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Tbh I think leave would win another vote anyway!
But can you trust what your told by anyone now leave or remain.?
		
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Some believe what ever is written on the side of a bus


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## Fade and Die (May 31, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Course it Will work. Leave swept to the sidelines so we can get on with what's really important in life .
		
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Liquid Lunch?

I'm amazed that you still peddle this deluded nonsense in the face of the overwhelming brexit result last week. Did you see the map? All of England was Nigel Blue! Except for London but John Cleese explained that better than i could.


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## clubchamp98 (May 31, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Can I just put this one to bed as it is gettipng a it tedious.

Most leavers accept the result of the 1st referendum and would accept leaving the EU with a deal. They would not be happy, but if we left in a managed way with a good deal for both sides then ce la vie, *&&^ happens and leave got more votes.

When it comes to no deal then more leavers are a bit suspicious as that is mostly seen as a bad outcome for both sides by any sensible analysis, it is pandering to the more hard line leave extremists and it is highly debatable if that is what some of people that voted leave expected to happen.

The ever increasing calls for a 2nd referendum are IMHO, mostly just about all because the government can not get a majority and agree on what the best way to leave. If they would have sorted it then it would be game over.  Personally I was very much in the camp of being very razzed off about the result, but it is what it is, get a deal and move on.

But now it seems that there is no way we can agree a way to leave that has any sort of parliamentary majority so e are stuck and it is just sucking the oxygen out of this country where we have other things to concentrate on.  So if we still feel the great British public have sufficient insight, understanding and knowledge of the process and implications of one of the most important decisions this country has ever made, then lets put it back to them, make it so the government has to implement the result and get on with it.  And then despite your supposition, no one would be demanding another referendum.
		
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Your post is very reasoned.
But if we stay in the club in any way politically we run the risk that politicians will embed us further by stealth.
This is why we are where we are.
Nobody asked me about all those treaties the politicians signed .
This is the first referendum I have been asked for my vote and I was told by the PM that the result would be implemented.

You should never join a club you canâ€™t leave!
But if you ask the question you should respect the answer.


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## robinthehood (May 31, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Liquid Lunch?

I'm amazed that you still peddle this deluded nonsense in the face of the overwhelming brexit result last week. Did you see the map? All of England was Nigel Blue! Except for London but John Cleese explained that better than i could.

Click to expand...


3 years since we left yes? hows that working for you..


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## Fade and Die (May 31, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			3 years since we left yes? hows that working for you.. 

Click to expand...

Wut?ðŸ¤”


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 1, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Your post is very reasoned.
But if we stay in the club in any way politically we run the risk that politicians will embed us further by stealth.
This is why we are where we are.
Nobody asked me about all those treaties the politicians signed .
This is the first referendum I have been asked for my vote and I was told by the PM that the result would be implemented.

You should never join a club you canâ€™t leave!
*But if you ask the question you should respect the answer*.
		
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Can't really argue with that.  It was one of the most stupid and ill thought out questions ever put to the british public. if you ask a question then you really need to have a plan on how you will execute the answer. If you don't then you just end up tearing the country apart. There really are no winners in this process.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 1, 2019)

Still think a 15 to 1 type TV show with Piers Morgan asking the questions would be the best way to choose a leader.
Sample questions like how do you pronounce Kirkcubright and Pwll would keep them on their toes.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 1, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Still think a 15 to 1 type TV show with Piers Morgan asking the questions would be the best way to choose a leader.
Sample questions like how do you pronounce Kirkcubright and Pwll would keep them on their toes.

Click to expand...

And Kranqy.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 1, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Can't really argue with that.  It was one of the most stupid and ill thought out questions ever put to the british public. if you ask a question then you really need to have a plan on how you will execute the answer. If you don't then you just end up tearing the country apart. There really are no winners in this process.
		
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I thought the plans were:  Leave if we voted leave or Remain if we voted Remain.   The simple answers are normally the best.

If its a more structured plan to leave then:

Objectives:
Leave the EU and its institutions and try to negotiate a new trading arrangement.

Activities:
Activate article 50, start negotiations that ensure a reasonable withdraw/future arrangement settlement is achieved that ensures future mutual trade is free of tarrifs and ensures the open movement of trade in Ireland.

Resorces:
Funding to pay for reasonable outstanding commitments minus  UK's share  of EU assets.
Investment in infrastructure to ensure a free flow of goods in and out of the UK.
Future spending to support UK business.
New international free trade agreements.
WTO trading where needed.

There's a start on the back of a fag packet.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I thought the plans were:  *Leave if we voted leave or Remain if we voted Remain.* *The simple answers are normally the best.*

If its a more structured plan to leave then:

Objectives:
Leave the EU and its institutions and try to negotiate a new trading arrangement.

Activities:
Activate article 50, start negotiations that ensure a reasonable withdraw/future arrangement settlement is achieved that ensures future mutual trade is free of tarrifs and ensures the open movement of trade in Ireland.

Resorces:
Funding to pay for reasonable outstanding commitments minus  UK's share  of EU assets.
Investment in infrastructure to ensure a free flow of goods in and out of the UK.
Future spending to support UK business.
New international free trade agreements.
WTO trading where needed.

There's a start on the back of a fag packet.
		
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So how's that simple answer working out then?


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So how's that simple answer working out then?
		
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It's  not , because there's no will in Parliament to do it and leave.


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## robinthehood (Jun 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			It's  not , because there's no will in Parliament to do it and leave.
		
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There is the will. Just  not for the destructive way the rabid leave and screw everything brigade want.


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## Hobbit (Jun 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			It's  not , because there's no will in Parliament to do it and leave.
		
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I'd go as far as suggest that a Remainer PM set too low a bar for an acceptable deal. Most of the MP's just wouldn't accept what she would.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 2, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1134844632720990209
Excellent, we are going to re-introduce chain gangs .
How long before hanging, beef dripping, knitted wool swimming trunks and Watneys Red Barrel are back too.


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## robinthehood (Jun 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1134844632720990209
Excellent, we are going to re-introduce chain gangs .
How long before hanging, beef dripping, knitted wool swimming trunks and Watneys Red Barrel are back too.
		
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I'd imagine a few will rub there hands with glee at the idea of this.


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			There is the will. Just  not for the destructive way the rabid leave and screw everything brigade want.
		
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Back to the insults again. I am not part of any rabid brigade, just someone who's not willing to be led my the nose by an outside uncontrollably force. Your a federalist and I'm for democracy like others including many remainers who have stated they are willing to accept the will of the majority.


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## robinthehood (Jun 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Back to the insults again. I am not part of any rabid brigade, just someone who's not willing to be led my the nose by an outside uncontrollably force. Your a federalist and I'm for democracy like others including many remainers who have stated they are willing to accept the will of the majority.
		
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You're clearly over sensitive. And I'm no federalist either .


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You're clearly over sensitive. And I'm no federalist either .
		
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Never been sensitive but your posts never include any facts just insults.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			So how's that simple answer working out then?
		
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It's not because it's being complicated by people who can't accept the result.  People like you.


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1134844632720990209
Excellent, we are going to re-introduce chain gangs .
How long before hanging, beef dripping, knitted wool swimming trunks and Watneys Red Barrel are back too.
		
Click to expand...

You really should stop reading your right wing rags. I suppose it goes with your ultra nationalist ways.


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			It's not because it's being complicated by people who can't accept the result.  People like you.
		
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Be fair their have been times when he has agreed with the result.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			It's not because it's being complicated by people who can't accept the result.  People like you.
		
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You mean the tory MPâ€™s who wouldnâ€™t back their leader?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1134844632720990209
Excellent, we are going to re-introduce chain gangs .
How long before hanging, beef dripping, knitted wool swimming trunks and Watneys Red Barrel are back too.
		
Click to expand...

What is wrong with prisoners earning their keep? Everyone else has to do it. Or are you suggesting that they should be molly cuddled and have an easy life while everyone else works to support them?


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## robinthehood (Jun 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Never been sensitive but your posts never include any facts just insults.
		
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? Where facts are required I'll include them.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1134844632720990209
Excellent, we are going to re-introduce chain gangs .
How long before hanging, beef dripping, knitted wool swimming trunks and Watneys Red Barrel are back too.
		
Click to expand...


Well, I am fully in favour of beef dripping... Makes for far better roast spuds and yorkies than poncie goose fat... Watneys might not have been able to produce a good beer but they were an excellent employer... More of which we could do with nowadays... And, if we truly wish to move into the twenty-first century we need to stop having sympathy for employers that feel maintaining a low paid underclass as being acceptable...


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			? Where facts are required I'll include them.
		
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Any would be a start. Wheres your evidence to support your statment that leavers are all part of a rabid brigade.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			You mean the tory MPâ€™s who wouldnâ€™t back their leader?
		
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Why are you so sensitive about Labour. 

Yes I include Conservatives who are frustrating Brexit.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Be fair their have been times when he has agreed with the result.
		
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Then like Corby he needs to get off the fence and clarify his position. I assume as  he is a proclaimed LibDem he wants to Stop Brexit.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			It's not because it's being complicated by people who can't accept the result.  People like you.
		
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Yes, always someone else's fault. The EU, remainers, etc etc    

You are probably overestimating my abilities here.  If I did know how to stop the ever more likely No Deal Brexit we are inexorably heading towards then truth be told, I may have done more of whatever that is.  But sadly I don't really think I have that much influence and power to affect the political machinations of the Tory party or parliament. But thanks for the vote of confidence.


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## Dando (Jun 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Any would be a start. Wheres your evidence to support your statment that leavers are all part of a rabid brigade.
		
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Delc told him


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Then like Corby he needs to get off the fence and clarify his position. I assume as  he is a proclaimed LibDem he wants to Stop Brexit.
		
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I didn't vote Lib Dem in the last EU elections for a start, but I am broadly favourable to their policies ans approach in many areas.

But weirdly enough you can have supported one party in the past but not agree with every policy they have or everything they say.  Said many times there are much more pressing concerns this nation has than Brexit, and once we are out they are not going away.  So I will vote for a party that I feel will best address them.

If people want to be defined by the party you vote for Brexit policy then go ahead.  At least I suppose it will give people something to continue to be angry about when they can no longer get angry about the EU apparently interfering in everything when we are out, and they realise the Brexit party does not have the answers to regional disparities, funding for public services, the environment, loss of need for traditional skills and realignment of the skills needed in work in the 21st century, affordability of property for young people, etc etc.  Still, we'll be out of the EU so all will be fine....


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 2, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			? Where facts are required I'll include them.
		
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52% v 48% thatâ€™s the only fact we need to know.
The people have spoken.


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## robinthehood (Jun 2, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			52% v 48% thatâ€™s the only fact we need to know.
The people have spoken.
		
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ðŸ˜…


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why are you so sensitive about Labour.

Yes I include Conservatives who are frustrating Brexit.
		
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Labour is a complete mess and Iâ€™d rather have the Easter Bunny as PM than Corbyn.
I just find it funny that anyone can blame anybody else than TM and the Tory party for us not leaving on 31st March.
And yes I know itâ€™s a very simplistic view, but thatâ€™s were I believe all problems stem from.


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## Hobbit (Jun 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Labour is a complete mess and Iâ€™d rather have the Easter Bunny as PM than Corbyn.
I just find it funny that anyone can blame anybody else than TM and the Tory party for us not leaving on 31st March.
And yes I know itâ€™s a very simplistic view, but thatâ€™s were I believe all problems stem from.
		
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I think the electorate, via the recent EU elections, pointed their collective finger at both the Conservatives and Labour. I read a lot of politician biographies, and look forward to reading what some current and recently left Cabinet Ministers have to say about what May has done behind the scenes.

Even with a BRINO deal she couldn't win Parliament over.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think the electorate, via the recent EU elections, pointed their collective finger at both the Conservatives and Labour. I read a lot of politician biographies, and look forward to reading what some current and recently left Cabinet Ministers have to say about what May has done behind the scenes.

Even with a BRINO deal she couldn't win Parliament over.
		
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Tbf, the issues started prior to TM, some of the blame goes to DC.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Labour is a complete mess and Iâ€™d rather have the Easter Bunny as PM than Corbyn.
I just find it funny that anyone can blame anybody else than TM and the Tory party for us not leaving on 31st March.
And yes I know itâ€™s a very simplistic view, but thatâ€™s were I believe all problems stem from.
		
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Please read what I posted. I reiterate that I blame Conservatives as well,  the blame lies in all parties that have frustrated the Brexit process.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I didn't vote Lib Dem in the last EU elections for a start, but I am broadly favourable to their policies ans approach in many areas.

But weirdly enough you can have supported one party in the past but not agree with every policy they have or everything they say.  Said many times there are much more pressing concerns this nation has than Brexit, and once we are out they are not going away.  So I will vote for a party that I feel will best address them.

If people want to be defined by the party you vote for Brexit policy then go ahead.  At least I suppose it will give people something to continue to be angry about when they can no longer get angry about the EU apparently interfering in everything when we are out, and they realise the Brexit party does not have the answers to regional disparities, funding for public services, the environment, loss of need for traditional skills and realignment of the skills needed in work in the 21st century, affordability of property for young people, etc etc.  Still, we'll be out of the EU so all will be fine....
		
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You previously proclaimed yourself a LibDem so I simply took you at your word and your preference to frustrate Brexit.

If  those frustrating the process would have backed/accepted the referendum result we would now be out of the EU and getting on with other important policies.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2019)

This thread is becoming another Brexit bun fight. Maybe we should keep it to the Tory Leadership issue.


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			This thread is becoming another Brexit bun fight. Maybe we should keep it to the Tory Leadership issue.
		
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Ridiculous amount of candidates and it is going to take to much time. Day after she confirms she's off those standing should prove they have a min of 40 MPs supporting them, the whole thing should take 1 week in parliament and a further final week for party members to come up with the leader.
Politics is turning in to a circus and unfortunately attracting a lot of clowns.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You previously proclaimed yourself a LibDem so I simply took you at your word and your preference to frustrate Brexit.

If  those frustrating the process would have backed/accepted the referendum result we would now be out of the EU and getting on with other important policies.
		
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Not sure that blaming the Lib Dems for frustrating Brexit is very fair. We hear from a lot of people that the politicians should be doing what their constituents want. We've had a general election since the referendum and the Lib Dems manifesto (along with the Greens and SNP) was very clear that they were against Brexit and wanted it stopped. MPs from those parties got voted in by people knowing what their policies were and as a result they are sticking to their manifesto promises, or at least that one. 

For me the blame has to lay squarely with Conservative and Labour MPs, all of whom stood on manifestos of delivering Brexit, and now are going back on that either by wanting a second referendum or by stopping Brexit totally if at all possible. If they didn't agree with their manifesto promises to deliver Brexit they shouldn't have stood as a Tory or Labour candidate and should have either joined one of the parties wanting to stop it or stood as an independent candidate. But as seems so often the case with our current crop of politicians self interest took over and they were more interested in making sure they got elected/re-elected than about anything else.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Ridiculous amount of candidates and it is going to take to much time. Day after she confirms she's off those standing should prove they have a min of 40 MPs supporting them, the whole thing should take 1 week in parliament and a further final week for party members to come up with the leader.
Politics is turning in to a circus and unfortunately attracting a lot of clowns.
		
Click to expand...

I've no idea why it should take as much time as it is going to take. I know it's a slightly different case, but in Germany the leader of the SPD (coalition partner of Merkel's CDU party) has announced that she will quit as leader on Monday and stand down as head of its parliamentary group on Tuesday. The leadership contest for the new leader to be elected will happen on Tuesday. 

They should do the same here, get on with it and just get it done. Why not put all the Tory MPs in a room and anyone that wants to be leader has to stand at the front. The other MPs then go and stand with their choice of leader. The one with the lowest support drops out and any MPs supporting that person then moves to their second preference. The lowest drops out and again the MPs move on to their next choice and this continues until you're left with the two most popular who get put forward to the vote by members.


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## Old Skier (Jun 2, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I've no idea why it should take as much time as it is going to take. I know it's a slightly different case, but in Germany the leader of the SPD (coalition partner of Merkel's CDU party) has announced that she will quit as leader on Monday and stand down as head of its parliamentary group on Tuesday. The leadership contest for the new leader to be elected will happen on Tuesday.

They should do the same here, get on with it and just get it done. Why not put all the Tory MPs in a room and anyone that wants to be leader has to stand at the front. The other MPs then go and stand with their choice of leader. The one with the lowest support drops out and any MPs supporting that person then moves to their second preference. The lowest drops out and again the MPs move on to their next choice and this continues until you're left with the two most popular who get put forward to the vote by members.
		
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Great idea, then MPs can see who people are siding with.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Not sure that blaming the Lib Dems for frustrating Brexit is very fair. We hear from a lot of people that the politicians should be doing what their constituents want. We've had a general election since the referendum and the Lib Dems manifesto (along with the Greens and SNP) was very clear that they were against Brexit and wanted it stopped. MPs from those parties got voted in by people knowing what their policies were and as a result they are sticking to their manifesto promises, or at least that one.

For me the blame has to lay squarely with Conservative and Labour MPs, all of whom stood on manifestos of delivering Brexit, and now are going back on that either by wanting a second referendum or by stopping Brexit totally if at all possible. If they didn't agree with their manifesto promises to deliver Brexit they shouldn't have stood as a Tory or Labour candidate and should have either joined one of the parties wanting to stop it or stood as an independent candidate. But as seems so often the case with our current crop of politicians self interest took over and they were more interested in making sure they got elected/re-elected than about anything else.
		
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I disagree. They may proclaim they are against Brexit but it doesn't negate the referendum result and the democratic responsibility to support the outcome.   Why does their name include the word 'Democrats' if they want to pick and choose where that is applied.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I disagree. They may proclaim they are against Brexit but it doesn't negate the referendum result and the democratic responsibility to support the outcome.   Why does their name include the word 'Democrats' if they want to pick and choose where that is applied.
		
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They have chuff all influence in parliament as they have chuff all MPs. When the Tories get voted in in a GE you would not expect Labour to 'support the outcome' and suddenly want to privatise the NHS or if Labour get in expecting the Tories to want to nationalise the rail system. So not sure why you are looking to put any blame on a party that ran on a clear manifesto about Brexit and has sod all MPs.  Always someones elses fault...


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 2, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Ridiculous amount of candidates and it is going to take to much time. Day after she confirms she's off those standing should prove they have a min of 40 MPs supporting them, the whole thing should take 1 week in parliament and a further final week for party members to come up with the leader.
Politics is turning in to a circus and unfortunately attracting a lot of clowns.
		
Click to expand...

IDS said last week that instead of 2 MPs nominating someone for leader it should be 10-12. That would stop most of this nonsense and speed up the process. Sensible suggestion.


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## Hobbit (Jun 2, 2019)

With such a slim majority, aided occasionally by the DUP, and a decent percentage of Tories not in favour of Brexit its difficult to lay blame on any one party. That's the outcome of party politics on the issue.

However, there's 2 sides to that part of the argument. 1) we want them to make the right decision, and maybe that doesn't always mean they do what the electorate voted for. That's representative politics. 2) Over 60% of Tory voters voted for Brexit, 32% of Labour voters voted for Brexit and 20%+ LibDems voted for Brexit. Are the respective MP's/% acting on their constituents wishes?

It all started so well for Leavers. There was a majority of MP's right across Parliament who voted to trigger the referendum. The majority of MP's voted to trigger Article 50. Where did it go wrong? Theresa May. A decision to hold a GE, and she just didn't show up for that election. A deal that just about everyone and their dog said no to, a deal that 3 Brexit ministers didn't agree with.

She even makes Neville Chamberlin look good (to be fair, Chamberlin's domestic policies and time served as a minister was actually very good).

Whoever gets to replace her is inheriting an even worse x-fest than she started with. For me, the only way for any PM to get a working govt out of this is a GE. The alternative is just more of what we've seen for the last 3 years.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			With such a slim majority, aided occasionally by the DUP, and a decent percentage of Tories not in favour of Brexit its difficult to lay blame on any one party. That's the outcome of party politics on the issue.

However, there's 2 sides to that part of the argument. 1) we want them to make the right decision, and maybe that doesn't always mean they do what the electorate voted for. That's representative politics. 2) Over 60% of Tory voters voted for Brexit, 32% of Labour voters voted for Brexit and 20%+ LibDems voted for Brexit. Are the respective MP's/% acting on their constituents wishes?

It all started so well for Leavers. There was a majority of MP's right across Parliament who voted to trigger the referendum. The majority of MP's voted to trigger Article 50. Where did it go wrong? Theresa May. A decision to hold a GE, and she just didn't show up for that election. A deal that just about everyone and their dog said no to, a deal that 3 Brexit ministers didn't agree with.

She even makes Neville Chamberlin look good (to be fair, Chamberlin's domestic policies and time served as a minister was actually very good).

Whoever gets to replace her is inheriting an even worse x-fest than she started with.* For me, the only way for any PM to get a working govt out of this is a GE*. The alternative is just more of what we've seen for the last 3 years.
		
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In which they know they will lose a lot of seats to other parties. So expect the same old same old.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Please read what I posted. I reiterate that I blame Conservatives as well,  the blame lies in all parties that have frustrated the Brexit process.
		
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Please read what I replied, I only blame the tories.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Please read what I replied, I only blame the tories.
		
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I blame every MP, they should be acting in the best interests of the country not toeing the party line. The country voted to leave, they should ALL be working together to deliver that.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 2, 2019)

drive4show said:



			I blame every MP, they should be acting in the best interests of the country not toeing the party line. The country voted to leave, they should ALL be working together to deliver that.
		
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So weâ€™re back to the old accepting a bad deal.


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## Hobbit (Jun 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So weâ€™re back to the old accepting a bad deal. 

Click to expand...

Where does he say accept a bad deal?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 2, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Where does he say accept a bad deal?
		
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Because TM didnâ€™t ask for any help until it was too late and then it wasnâ€™t from all parties.
Therefore the only way they could of carried out what he posted was to accept the bad deal.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 2, 2019)

drive4show said:



			I blame every MP, they should be acting in the best interests of the country not toeing the party line. The country voted to leave, they should ALL be working together to deliver that.
		
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What if the best interests of the country are to remain in the EU?


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## Foxholer (Jun 2, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			This thread is becoming another Brexit bun fight. Maybe we should keep it to the Tory Leadership issue.
		
Click to expand...

Nice thought, but seems an unlikely hope! 

Given that the trigger for a new PM was May's decision to resign because she couldn't get a sufficient 'consensus' to get the legislation throuygh Parliament, Brexit views and approaches are going to pretty dominant any issues/discussion about a new PM!


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## Hobbit (Jun 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Because TM didnâ€™t ask for any help until it was too late and then it wasnâ€™t from all parties.
Therefore the only way they could of carried out what he posted was to accept the bad deal.
		
Click to expand...

He said, "working together." Current tense, not past tense. No, "all should have worked together." It could be argued that they worked together to ensure May's bad deal wasn't passed, and were in fact working in the best interests of the people.


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## Foxholer (Jun 2, 2019)

drive4show said:



			I blame every MP, they should be acting in the best interests of the country not toeing the party line. The country voted to leave, they should ALL be working together to deliver that.
		
Click to expand...

While (even as a Remain voter) I agree with the concept, it's important to understand the true nature of the UK version of 'democracy'. It's perfectly described as a 'Parliamentary Democracy'! This means that whatever 'the people decide', even by referendum. it's Parliament that has the final say - and, in this case, The House of Lords (a key part of UK's 'Parliamentary Democracy') hasn't even been involved in any vote!

And I actually believe that (almost) every MP believes the really are 'acting in the best interest of the country' - even when they are opposing any deal that has been negotiated!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 2, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			What if the best interests of the country are to remain in the EU?
		
Click to expand...

What if the best interests of the country are to leave the EU?


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## Kellfire (Jun 2, 2019)

drive4show said:



			What if the best interests of the country are to leave the EU?
		
Click to expand...

They arenâ€™t. And I think you know that but your dubious interests are to remain.


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## Dando (Jun 2, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			They arenâ€™t. And I think you know that but your dubious interests are to remain.
		
Click to expand...

How do you know they arenâ€™t?


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## Foxholer (Jun 2, 2019)

drive4show said:





ColchesterFC said:



			What if the best interests of the country are to remain in the EU?
		
Click to expand...

What if the best interests of the country are to leave the EU?
		
Click to expand...

There's arguments for both sides - and why a referendum was such a bad commitment by Cameron! It's actually the sort of thing that 'government' is in the best position to actually decide! And that's even (or perhaps especially!)  after the Civil Service, which/who are in a much better position to rationally offset both sides of such an argument,  has had its say about the benefits/disadvantages of remaining/leaving! It was pretty obvious that the 'negatives' about EU membership would be far more visible/easily sold than the 'positives' of belonging to it (or the 'negatives' of not belonging to it) were!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 2, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			They arenâ€™t. And I think you know that but your dubious interests are to remain.
		
Click to expand...

Once again, you are wrong in your opinion about my interests.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Please read what I replied, I only blame the tories.
		
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Yes I know you do and its a blinkered view.  Anyone who is working to frustrate the outcome of the referendum is at blame and that includes Labour.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 5, 2019)

Via Wings
'Kit Malthouse has dropped out of the Tory leadership race to enable himself to spend more time with his obscurity'


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## JamesR (Jun 5, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			...I only blame the tories.
		
Click to expand...

I donâ€™t blame the Tories!
Itâ€™s the fault of people who vote for them, stand for them and fund them, they are the problem.
A Tory in number 10 has as much chance of doing good as Dick & Dom would, whilst playing a game of bogiesðŸ˜


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## Fade and Die (Jun 5, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I donâ€™t blame the Tories!
Itâ€™s the fault of people who vote for them, stand for them and fund them, they are the problem.
A Tory in number 10 has as much chance of doing good as Dick & Dom would, whilst playing a game of bogiesðŸ˜
		
Click to expand...

They are shit but strangely better than the opposition. I wonder why?ðŸ¤”


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## MegaSteve (Jun 6, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			They are shit but strangely better than the opposition. I wonder why?ðŸ¤”
		
Click to expand...

Theresa has way more style than Jezza...
But, failing even with style is still failing...


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## Stuart_C (Jun 6, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			It will if he's in jail ðŸ¤£ , I'm glad some one is being held to account for the brexit BS bus.


702
		
Click to expand...

That bus should've said "vote leave to sell off our NHS to USA".

6


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 6, 2019)

Alan B'Stard thinking of joining the leadership race on the moderates ticket. 

Rab Dominic  so out of touch that he thinks flying more Union flegs in Scotland will save the UK.


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## User62651 (Jun 6, 2019)

This contest should kick off properly on Monday shouldn't it - does May actually leave No.10 tomorrow or hang on until she'd evicted?

Shame that although Rory Stewart is speaking the most sense of the candidates imo, dealing in some reality at least, he stands no chance of being selected. Far too honest about things. Gove is trying to lay some carefully placed 'get outs' currently whilst trying to look strong on leaving - he's not daft.

It's May's deal or No Deal or Revoke or 2nd ref or Extend again. There is no time or will for changes to WA before end Oct despite what rabble rousing bluster Johnson/Hunt/Javid etc spout meantime. In that regard 'Nothing Has Changed' to coin a phrase. No Tory in with a real chance of PM will revoke and parliament won't allow No Deal, Govt won't allow 2nd ref and May's deal is dead. That just leaves Extend Article 50. Can anyone really see anything but that happening come Halloween?

Johnson may say we're leaving with No Deal but it's not entirely up to him if he's chosen.......thankfully, so promising that now is not facing facts. Can fully see these candidates promising out with No Deal on Halloween reneging on promises as soon as they're PM and find they cannot get out by Halloween, candidates spin doctors will be working overtime to come up with a strategy of who/what to blame when Oct31 comes and goes with no change. 

Suspect candidates wont care if they're PM though. Get over that hurdle first then stall quickly with Brexit.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I donâ€™t blame the Tories!
Itâ€™s the fault of people who vote for them, stand for them and fund them, they are the problem.
A Tory in number 10 has as much chance of doing good as Dick & Dom would, whilst playing a game of bogiesðŸ˜
		
Click to expand...

Lets get this right then: All people who voted Tory are the problem.  

Very well thought out and enlightening ðŸ™„


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			That bus should've said "vote leave to sell off our NHS to USA".

6
		
Click to expand...

Why?


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 6, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			This contest should kick off properly on Monday shouldn't it - does May actually leave No.10 tomorrow or hang on until she'd evicted?

Shame that although Rory Stewart is speaking the most sense of the candidates imo, dealing in some reality at least, he stands no chance of being selected. Far too honest about things. Gove is trying to lay some carefully placed 'get outs' currently whilst trying to look strong on leaving - he's not daft.

It's May's deal or No Deal or Revoke or 2nd ref or Extend again. There is no time or will for changes to WA before end Oct despite what rabble rousing bluster Johnson/Hunt/Javid etc spout meantime. In that regard 'Nothing Has Changed' to coin a phrase. No Tory in with a real chance of PM will revoke and parliament won't allow No Deal, Govt won't allow 2nd ref and May's deal is dead. That just leaves Extend Article 50. Can anyone really see anything but that happening come Halloween?

Johnson may say we're leaving with No Deal but it's not entirely up to him if he's chosen.......thankfully, so promising that now is not facing facts. Can fully see these candidates promising out with No Deal on Halloween reneging on promises as soon as they're PM and find they cannot get out by Halloween, candidates spin doctors will be working overtime to come up with a strategy of who/what to blame when Oct31 comes and goes with no change.

Suspect candidates wont care if they're PM though. Get over that hurdle first then stall quickly with Brexit. 

Click to expand...

I think Raab could sneak up on the outside.  He's said some on brand mental things at the moment that I bet is appealing to the traditional tory party member, so if he makes it to the last 2 who knows what will happen.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why?
		
Click to expand...

Because its probably more accurate then what they went with ðŸ‘

6


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## JamesR (Jun 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Lets get this right then: All people who voted Tory are the problem. 

Very well thought out and enlightening ðŸ™„
		
Click to expand...

Well you canâ€™t blame those that voted for the other parties; they arenâ€™t having a Tory leadership battle, are they?


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## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Well you canâ€™t blame those that voted for the other parties; they arenâ€™t having a Tory leadership battle, are they?
		
Click to expand...

But almost 40% of Tories didn't vote to Leave in the referendum. Almost a 1/3 of Labour voters voted Leave...


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## JamesR (Jun 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			But almost 40% of Tories didn't vote to Leave in the referendum. Almost a 1/3 of Labour voters voted Leave...
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s the Tory PM and government dealing with it, messing it up, having an unnecessary election and having a leadership battle .


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Well you canâ€™t blame those that voted for the other parties; they arenâ€™t having a Tory leadership battle, are they?
		
Click to expand...

No, thats correct. They have their own problems, how many Labour supporters voted for Corbyn ?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Itâ€™s the Tory PM and government dealing with it, messing it up, having an unnecessary election and having a leadership battle .
		
Click to expand...

Its not a Battle, its a leadership change. You know, when a political party decide they want a new leader, no ones being killed.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 6, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			I think Raab could sneak up on the outside.  He's said some on brand mental things at the moment that I bet is appealing to the traditional tory party member, so if he makes it to the last 2 who knows what will happen.
		
Click to expand...

A big chunk of Scotland is now desperately hoping that Rab will win...â€¦.even more bonkers than Johnson. [If that was possible]

Rab Quote...
' One of the proudest things I have done as a minister was to get the Union flegs flying at the Edinburgh Festival'

Oh please vote this guy in as PM.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			Because its probably more accurate then what they went with ðŸ‘

6
		
Click to expand...

Who said they are selling off the NHS? Maybe you can give some details of it being 'sold off'   All I can make out is some consideration regarding the procurement of drugs.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No, thats correct. They have their own problems, how many Labour supporters voted for Corbyn ?
		
Click to expand...


40,086


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## JamesR (Jun 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its not a Battle, its a leadership change. You know, when a political party decide they want a new leader, no ones being killed.
		
Click to expand...

please accept my apologies, did my wording offend?
I really didnâ€™t intend any offence. Must remember not to use wording from the Murdoch style again ðŸ¤­


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2019)

JamesR said:



			please accept my apologies, did my wording offend?
I really didnâ€™t intend any offence. Must remember not to use wording from the Murdoch style again ðŸ¤­
		
Click to expand...

No offence at all.  Just trying to de-sensationalise your post.


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## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No offense at all.  Just trying to de-sensationalise your post.
		
Click to expand...

Maybe the other contenders will crash out, or back off when faced with the cliff edge...


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## JamesR (Jun 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No offense at all.  Just trying to de-sensationalise your post.
		
Click to expand...

It really was sensational wasnâ€™t it!?!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe the other contenders will crash out, or back off when faced with the cliff edge...

Click to expand...

Quite. The spectre of leaping into the dark has haunted me in the small hours ðŸ¤”


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## JamesR (Jun 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Quite. The spectre of leaping into the dark has haunted me in the small hours ðŸ¤”
		
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The spectreâ€™s stepped down, hasnâ€™t she?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2019)

JamesR said:



			It really was sensational wasnâ€™t it!?!
		
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Yes.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2019)

JamesR said:



			The spectreâ€™s stepped down, hasnâ€™t she?
		
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If you say so, i guess she must have.


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## JamesR (Jun 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes.
		
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Good, Iâ€™m glad it excited you ðŸ‘


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Good, Iâ€™m glad it excited you ðŸ‘
		
Click to expand...

Cosmic


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## JamesR (Jun 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			If you say so, i guess she must have.
		
Click to expand...

I had nothing to do with it, she said so in her, ever so touching, speechðŸ˜¢


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2019)

JamesR said:



			I had nothing to do with it, she said so in her, ever so touching, speechðŸ˜¢
		
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I wasnt aware She was a spectre, but if you say so the worlds your oyster.


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## JamesR (Jun 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I wasnt aware She was a spectre, but if you say so the worlds your oyster.
		
Click to expand...

Why thank you, I love oysters, especially with a nice oily Riesling, or perhaps a Chablis ðŸ¥‚ chin chin


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## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Quite. The spectre of leaping into the dark has haunted me in the small hours ðŸ¤”
		
Click to expand...

Do small hours only contain 58 minutes?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2019)

JamesR said:



			Why thank you, I love oysters, especially with a nice oily Riesling, or perhaps a Chablis ðŸ¥‚ chin chin
		
Click to expand...

Cheers


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Do small hours only contain 58 minutes?
		
Click to expand...

Sometimes they seem to contain 580, especially when trying to make sense of current politics  ðŸ¤¯


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 7, 2019)

400 UKIP voters in Peterborough proving the point that far right voters are a bit dim as the Brexit party lose by a narrow margin.


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## IainP (Jun 7, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			400 UKIP voters in Peterborough proving the point that far right voters are a bit dim as the Brexit party lose by a narrow margin.
		
Click to expand...

Is your point that generally people should vote tactically rather than for who they want?
Does this fit with your views?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...on-single-candidate-lib-dems-greens-change-uk


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 7, 2019)

IainP said:



			Is your point that generally people should vote tactically rather than for who they want?
Does this fit with your views?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.th...on-single-candidate-lib-dems-greens-change-uk

Click to expand...

Not necessarily, but in the case of UKIP and Brexit are they not two cheeks of the same 'bottom'.

I see Rory the Tory's campaign is being financed by a Russian billionaire.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 7, 2019)

OMG they are talking about National Service now
Just need caning in schools to complete my bingo card.

Gove on cocaine wow...

Max Hastings talking about Boris Johnson
'He thinks he is Winston Churchill when in reality he is Steve Coogan'


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## MegaSteve (Jun 8, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			OMG they are talking about National Service now
Just need caning in schools to complete my bingo card.

Click to expand...

Well, I am quite looking forward to the return of collecting my prescription drugs in a little glass bottle rather than over packaged tin foil and plastic that ends up in landfill... Much of 'back in the day' was way better than the way it is now...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 8, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Well, I am quite looking forward to the return of collecting my prescription drugs in a little glass bottle rather than over packaged tin foil and plastic that ends up in landfill... Much of 'back in the day' was way better than the way it is now...
		
Click to expand...

I absolutely agree! 
Unfortunately though we now have to pander to the yoghurt knitters who know better.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 8, 2019)

Well I guess we know why the Conservatives are in such a mess. They've all been on drugs. Gove has been on the coke, Stewart's been on the opium and Hunt and Raab have been on the wacky backy - and I don't even have to put allegedly as they've all admitted it and apologised.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48564722 

Just need TM and BJ to come out and admit they've spent most of the last 3 years shooting up in back alleys around Downing Street and everything will make sense.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 8, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Well I guess we know why the Conservatives are in such a mess. They've all been on drugs. Gove has been on the coke, Stewart's been on the opium and Hunt and Raab have been on the wacky backy - and I don't even have to put allegedly as they've all admitted it and apologised.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48564722

Just need TM and BJ to come out and admit they've spent most of the last 3 years shooting up in back alleys around Downing Street and everything will make sense.
		
Click to expand...

Looking forward to tales of how Leadsom was off her tits on E down the Hacienda in the late 80s.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Looking forward to tales of how Leadsom was off her tits on E down the Hacienda in the late 80s.
		
Click to expand...

Is she not the one with some 'artistic photos' from the 1980's
I could be wrong about that..... there are quite a few 50+ Tory women on the fringes of the party and they all tend to look the same.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Looking forward to tales of how Leadsom was off her tits on E down the Hacienda in the late 80s.
		
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And at the risk of upsetting Paul by bringing Labour into this......tales of Corbyn and Abbott tripping off their tits on LSD during their 70's motorbike tour through East Germany.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 8, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			And at the risk of upsetting Paul by bringing Labour into this......tales of Corbyn and Abbott tripping off their tits on LSD during their 70's motorbike tour through East Germany.
		
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Didnâ€™t realise Corbyn and Abbott were up for tory leader. Wouldnâ€™t be a good thread about the next tory PM without a dig at Labour.


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## Dando (Jun 8, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			And at the risk of upsetting Paul by bringing Labour into this......tales of Corbyn and Abbott tripping off their tits on LSD during their 70's motorbike tour through East Germany.
		
Click to expand...

Youâ€™d hope old man steptoe was off his tits to even think abacus was worth a ride


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## Stuart_C (Jun 8, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Looking forward to tales of how Leadsom was off her tits on E down the Hacienda in the late 80s.
		
Click to expand...

I reckon Leadsom was a sort back in the day.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 8, 2019)

Dando said:



			Youâ€™d hope old man steptoe was off his tits to even think abacus was worth a ride
		
Click to expand...

Itâ€™s amazing what alcohol and drugs can make you see ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 8, 2019)

Stuart_C said:



			Itâ€™s amazing what alcohol and drugs can make you see ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

Ain't that the truth. It wasn't until I sobered up that I realised what I'd married with the former Mrs Colch.


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## Stuart_C (Jun 8, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Ain't that the truth. It wasn't until I sobered up that I realised what I'd married with the former Mrs Colch. 

Click to expand...


ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 8, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Didnâ€™t realise Corbyn and Abbott were up for tory leader. Wouldnâ€™t be a good thread about the next tory PM without a dig at Labour. 

Click to expand...

That wasn't a dig at Labour. It was simply a hope that the two of them had enjoyed their "trip" through the former East Germany. I would hate to think that they hadn't enjoyed themselves.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 8, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			That wasn't a dig at Labour. It was simply a hope that the two of them had enjoyed their "trip" through the former East Germany. I would hate to think that they hadn't enjoyed themselves. 

Click to expand...

Spot the emoji mate.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 8, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Spot the emoji mate. 

Click to expand...

I did indeed, and it wasn't a serious reply to your post. I really don't care whether they enjoyed their motorbike trip or not. In fact I hope they had a miserable time, it rained heavily the whole time and they fell of their bike at least once a day. But at least the LSD they were taking ( <---that I completely imagined and made up) would've softened the blow when they hit the tarmac. 

P.S. Again that's not a dig at Labour. If it had been May and Gove on a motorbike in East Germany I would feel the same about them as well. In fact in their case I would have been hoping that they hadn't had the imaginary LSD to soften the blow when they hit the road.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 8, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I did indeed, and it wasn't a serious reply to your post. I really don't care whether they enjoyed their motorbike trip or not. In fact I hope they had a miserable time, it rained heavily the whole time and they fell of their bike at least once a day. But at least the LSD they were taking ( <---that I completely imagined and made up) would've softened the blow when they hit the tarmac. 

P.S. Again that's not a dig at Labour. If it had been May and Gove on a motorbike in East Germany I would feel the same about them as well. In fact in their case I would have been hoping that they hadn't had the imaginary LSD to soften the blow when they hit the road.
		
Click to expand...

I know mate, bit of fun.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 8, 2019)




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## ColchesterFC (Jun 8, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



View attachment 27506

Click to expand...

That is absolutely fantastic, and I don't mean that in a good way. I hadn't heard that one before. My favourite quote from Gove is from when he was Minister for Education and he was talking about education standards. He said that he wanted "all schools to be above the national average" thus proving that the Minister for Education didn't understand the meaning of the word average. And these people rule us.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2019)

Watching these so called candidates being interviewed just shows how much of a state the UK is in.
My God they are all hopeless, one there calling Truthless Davidson 'a real election winner'


----------



## robinthehood (Jun 9, 2019)

I see Boris is banging the no deal drum. He won't get it through parliament so what's the point .


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I see Boris is banging the no deal drum. He won't get it through parliament so what's the point .
		
Click to expand...

To appeal to the party members who will not than likely appoint him? I see Murdoch has given him his seal of approval today in the Sunday Times so its virtually a done deal.


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## User62651 (Jun 9, 2019)

Whomever gets in as PM starts off on a worse footing that May had 3 years ago, much worse. She had a reasonable majority and her party was popular enough. Now a thankless task as their Governing Party is as unpopular as it's possibly ever been and still torn in 2, they do not have the numbers in Commons either and are still reliant on DUP.

Feels like Boris will win, maybe not. He seems very quiet. Gove has blown it imo - why did this cocaine thing come out now and not 3 years ago when he was running for PM then? Blackmail?


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## arnieboy (Jun 9, 2019)

I wondered about Gove, someone was going to use it against him.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 9, 2019)

I feel so sorry for the 100,000 OAP's from South of Preston who have to put their teeth in, set their blue rinse and then go out and vote for a new PM.
What a choice.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I feel so sorry for the 100,000 OAP's from South of Preston who have to put their teeth in, set their blue rinse and then go out and vote for a new PM.
What a choice.
		
Click to expand...

You really are a nasty divisive troll.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 9, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Whomever gets in as PM starts off on a worse footing that May had 3 years ago, much worse. She had a reasonable majority and her party was popular enough. Now a thankless task as their Governing Party is as unpopular as it's possibly ever been and still torn in 2, they do not have the numbers in Commons either and are still reliant on DUP.

Feels like Boris will win, maybe not. He seems very quiet. Gove has blown it imo - why did this cocaine thing come out now and not 3 years ago when he was running for PM then? Blackmail?
		
Click to expand...

I dont think the last election made a difference. The division between brexiteers and remainers would have still paralysed the outcome.


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## robinthehood (Jun 10, 2019)

I see Boris is trying to woo the average voter with tax cuts for those earning between 40  and  80k


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 10, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I see Boris is banging the no deal drum. He won't get it through parliament so what's the point .
		
Click to expand...

Now offering tax cuts for the rich subsidised by the poor..â€¦...true one nation Tory standards.
England is going to vote this numptie in as PM, please beam me up Scottie.


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## pendodave (Jun 10, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I see Boris is trying to woo the average voter with tax cuts for those earning between 40  and  80k
		
Click to expand...

The median UK income is Â£28500. He's actually trying to woo the average rich person. Plus ca change ...


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## Kellfire (Jun 10, 2019)

pendodave said:



			The median UK income is Â£28500. He's actually trying to woo the average rich person. Plus ca change ...
		
Click to expand...

Iâ€™m pretty sure robinthehood was being VERY sarcastic.


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## pendodave (Jun 10, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Iâ€™m pretty sure robinthehood was being VERY sarcastic. 

Click to expand...

You're right. Mea culpa! Sorry RtH.
Still, always good for people to remember what normal is, and what Tory is...


----------



## Beezerk (Jun 10, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			I see Boris is trying to woo the average voter with tax cuts for those earning between 40  and  80k
		
Click to expand...

Whoop, pay rise here we come ðŸ˜‚


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			You really are a nasty divisive troll.
		
Click to expand...

Change troll to tory and you have summed up your hero, Boris, perfectly...


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 10, 2019)




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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Change troll to tory and you have summed up your hero, Boris, perfectly...
		
Click to expand...

Come on then, where have I supported Boris?  I challenge you to show where or apologise.


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## robinthehood (Jun 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Come on then, where have I supported Boris?  I challenge you to show where or apologise.
		
Click to expand...

In this thread specifically? Or any of the gushing posts you've made about him over the years.... you know the forum has a search function right?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			In this thread specifically? Or any of the gushing posts you've made about him over the years.... you know the forum has a search function right?
		
Click to expand...

Use it then. Show some proof or drop the BS


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## robinthehood (Jun 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Use it then. Show some proof or drop the BS
		
Click to expand...

Lol use what? It's plainly obvious you're a Boris supporter and that's fine. Don't embarrass your self by denying it and taking some weird defensive stance .


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## Tashyboy (Jun 10, 2019)

Gotta say that Borisis plans to up the 40% tax threshold has bogged me off. He sounds like a Tory Jeremy corbyn wanting votes over wanting what is good for the country


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Lol use what? It's plainly obvious you're a Boris supporter and that's fine. Don't embarrass your self by denying it and taking some weird defensive stance .
		
Click to expand...

DOH!!  Use the search function you mentioned 

I am neither for against Boris, he is just another politician to me.    I have made a few comments about him but never as an avid supporter.

I take it you cant prove your allegation so it is just another dose of BS.


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## robinthehood (Jun 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			DOH!!  Use the search function you mentioned 

I am neither for against Boris, he is just another politician to me.    I have made a few comments about him but never as an avid supporter.

I take it you cant prove your allegation so it is just another dose of BS. 

Click to expand...

ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£

Oof. I'm not really that bothered, ones woman's gaffe prone idiot is another's intelligent  eccentric wouldn't you say ðŸ˜‰


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## Foxholer (Jun 10, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£

Oof. I'm not really that bothered, ones woman's gaffe prone idiot is another's intelligent  eccentric ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

So just pure trolling then!


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## robinthehood (Jun 10, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			So just pure trolling then!
		
Click to expand...

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

In the words of the mary Whitehouse experience...
That's you that is.


----------



## Foxholer (Jun 10, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

In the words of the mary Whitehouse experience...
That's you that is.
		
Click to expand...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£

Oof. I'm not really that bothered, ones woman's gaffe prone idiot is another's intelligent  eccentric wouldn't you say ðŸ˜‰
		
Click to expand...

No!  I just call it as it is : BS


----------



## MegaSteve (Jun 10, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Come on then, where have I supported Boris?  I challenge you to show where or apologise.
		
Click to expand...

Then, perhaps, you should resist from posting what you consider positives of Boris...


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 10, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Then, perhaps, you should resist from posting what you consider positives of Boris...
		
Click to expand...

Don't you mean 'what you' consider positives of Boris.  Of course challenge where you think someone is incorrect but you have posted a knee jerk  generalisation here.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 10, 2019)

Oi Handbags away perlease.

If you cant say something nice, then dont say nuffin at all, (with apologies to Thumper)


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 10, 2019)




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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 10, 2019)

And then there were 10. Painfully slow process but at least it is underway. 

One question,  how the heck did Esther mcvey get 8 MPs to support her?


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## Hobbit (Jun 10, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			And then there were 10. Painfully slow process but at least it is underway.

One question,  how the heck did Esther mcvey get 8 MPs to support her?
		
Click to expand...

Trying to put party preferences aside, who do you think will get it? Or who would you prefer?

My preference would be Hunt, followed by Leadsom, followed by Stewart. Probably too soon for Stewart but I like the cut of his jib. Articulate, and not afraid to say the difficult things. Hunt has plenty of experience, including the NHS which isn't an easy brief. Leadsom seems to have an air of calm and steel, and again well experienced. Absolutely don't want any of the others, especially the loose cannon that is Boris, or the conniving backstabber with a nasal problem.

Crazy its expected to take into July when there's Brexit to deal with.


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## robinthehood (Jun 10, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Trying to put party preferences aside, who do you think will get it? Or who would you prefer?

My preference would be Hunt, followed by Leadsom, followed by Stewart. Probably too soon for Stewart but I like the cut of his jib. Articulate, and not afraid to say the difficult things. Hunt has plenty of experience, including the NHS which isn't an easy brief. Leadsom seems to have an air of calm and steel, and again well experienced. Absolutely don't want any of the others, especially the loose cannon that is Boris, or the conniving backstabber with a nasal problem.

Crazy its expected to take into July when there's Brexit to deal with.
		
Click to expand...

you think anyone other than Boris has a chance? Not now that he is offering more money to the already well off  And pedaling the no deal line as a good thing.

There is Something about Leadsom i dont like, no idea what it is though.


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## Hobbit (Jun 10, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			you think anyone other than Boris has a chance? Not now that he is offering more money to the already well off  And pedaling the no deal line as a good thing.

There is Something about Leadsom i dont like, no idea what it is though.
		
Click to expand...

I agree that Boris is odds on favourite, but the question posed was who do people prefer. I agree with you on the Leadsom thing - I have a saying along the lines of the smile doesn't reach the eyes. I get the feeling, sometimes, that what she's saying and what she's thinking are different things.


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## robinthehood (Jun 10, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I agree that Boris is odds on favourite, but the question posed was who do people prefer. I agree with you on the Leadsom thing - I have a saying along the lines of the smile doesn't reach the eyes. I get the feeling, sometimes, that what she's saying and what she's thinking are different things.
		
Click to expand...

TBF you also asked who do we think ill get it 

Yeah its the leadsom smile, it seems somehow wrong..

As for preference, someone with a moderate view who perhaps wants to make the effort to unite a very fractured country behind a plan we can all get behind, not sure which one that is.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 10, 2019)

There are some of them who know they have no chance of becoming PM, but they entered the race to boost their profile in the hope of getting a plum cabinet post.

Itâ€™s all about self promotion


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## patricks148 (Jun 10, 2019)

Depends  on who is offering the biggest bribe to the rich, Boris with his tax cuts to the very wealthy, or Gove with his stealth vat scrap where yact s supercars etc will be exempt


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 10, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Trying to put party preferences aside, who do you think will get it? Or who would you prefer?

My preference would be Hunt, followed by Leadsom, followed by Stewart. Probably too soon for Stewart but I like the cut of his jib. Articulate, and not afraid to say the difficult things. Hunt has plenty of experience, including the NHS which isn't an easy brief. Leadsom seems to have an air of calm and steel, and again well experienced. Absolutely don't want any of the others, especially the loose cannon that is Boris, or the conniving backstabber with a nasal problem.

Crazy its expected to take into July when there's Brexit to deal with.
		
Click to expand...

I agree on Hunt, i think Hunt would be best for the country but I don't think he has the charisma to win. I can see it being between Boris and Raab. Raab comes across confidently and he doesn't have Boris's baggage so he has a chance.

There is something about Leadsom that makes my skin crawl, I don't trust her. Stewart is not someone I know much about so I can't really comment on him. Hopefully this weekend has seen the end of Gove at least.


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## larmen (Jun 10, 2019)

Doesnâ€™t Hunt have too much baggage from the NHS?
He had no money to spend and a lot of backlash for not investing in it. Junior doctor strikes, ...
Not saying it is his fault, but thatâ€™s not how popularity contests work.


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## Dellboy (Jun 11, 2019)

My vote will be going to Raab, if he gets through, failing that Bojo will get my vote.
Canâ€™t see Hunt or Stewart getting through, the party doesnâ€™t want a remainder in charge.
Gove is a 2 faced back stabbing you know what, Leadsom was to close to May.
The rest hasnâ€™t got the support of the other 160,000.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 11, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			And then there were 10. Painfully slow process but at least it is underway.

One question,  how the heck did Esther mcvey get 8 MPs to support her?
		
Click to expand...

Was one IDS perchance.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 11, 2019)

Dellboy said:



			My vote will be going to Raab, if he gets through, failing that Bojo will get my vote.
Canâ€™t see Hunt or Stewart getting through, the party doesnâ€™t want a remainder in charge.
Gove is a 2 faced back stabbing you know what, Leadsom was to close to May.
The rest hasnâ€™t got the support of the other 160,000.
		
Click to expand...

Excellent choice, for Scotland's future I hope many more follow your lead.


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## JamesR (Jun 11, 2019)

Personally I see Hunt as the lessor of the many evils - seems to have done a better job as Foreign Sec' than De Pfeffel & may appeal to the, less rabid, central ground of the party.


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## drdel (Jun 11, 2019)

Quite pleased to see the EU doesn't like any of the possibles - I'd have been worried if they did


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## chrisd (Jun 11, 2019)

bring back Maggie, she'd sort em out


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## Pathetic Shark (Jun 11, 2019)

I think it's between Boris, Hunt and Raab. Rory Stewart looks like the offspring of two Hogwarts residents whilst Esther McVay would spend more time getting her hair done than being PM.


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## User62651 (Jun 11, 2019)

Pathetic Shark said:



			I think it's between Boris, Hunt and Raab. Rory Stewart looks like the offspring of two Hogwarts residents whilst Esther McVay would spend more time getting her hair done than being PM.
		
Click to expand...

It's Boris, they should just appoint him now and be done with the circus.

Man is teflon, no matter what he does or says, how many lies he tells, how many romantic dalliances out of wedlock he has, how many gaffes he's prone to, nothing sticks as far as his core support are concerned, he is the chosen one.

Chuck in a few latin phrases, speak in a staccato yet plummy fashion whilst generally insulting or offending people, but in a cuddly tousle-haired Billy Bunter way, and you'll be fine for PM.

Who knows, he might actually be a good PM, could be the making of him. Stranger things have happened.


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## Crazyface (Jun 11, 2019)

I don't think Hunt will win, TV presenters keep getting his name wrong. LOL.
Boris....has showed his true colours, were they actually hidden? More money for the comfortably well off...proper Tory! He's not gonna win. He's still seems bonkers.
The rest? Don't trust 'em. So God knows who's gonna win. Maybe Esther McVey.


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## User62651 (Jun 11, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I don't think Hunt will win, TV presenters keep getting his name wrong. LOL.
Boris....has showed his true colours, were they actually hidden?* More money for the comfortably well off...proper Tory! He's not gonna win.* He's still seems bonkers.
The rest? Don't trust 'em. So God knows who's gonna win. Maybe Esther McVey.
		
Click to expand...

But that's a shameless carrot for the selected few choosing PM from the last 2  - the Conservative party membership. It will work. Whether he'll stick by that pledge down the road is another matter. One hurdle at a time!


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 11, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			It's Boris, they should just appoint him now and be done with the circus.


Chuck in a few latin phrases, speak in a staccato yet plummy fashion whilst generally insulting or offending people, but in a cuddly tousle-haired Billy Bunter way, and you'll be fine for PM.

Who knows, he might actually be a good PM, could be the making of him. Stranger things have happened.

Click to expand...

Well, the thought does occur. Remember, he's a classics man. There was a chap in Rome regarded as a buffoon who became Emperor, ( Claudius)!, and IIRC, history regards him as having made not too bad a job of it.


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 11, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Boris....More money for the comfortably well off...proper Tory! He's not gonna win. 
.
		
Click to expand...

As I imagine he has done, you have to consider who it is that is voting. 
(Assuming he gets to the last two )
It is not the general populace, it is the Tory party *membership*
How many of those do you know? How many of those are not in the financial bracket he is proposing tax cuts for?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 11, 2019)

*It is put to Tory MP Sir Alan Duncan that Boris Johnson is the winning candidate among the Conservative Party membership.*

*Sir Alan - who is supporting Jeremy Hunt for the top job - says the membership is "an older electorate" and "there will be questions about the suitability for government."*

*"Every single Foreign Office minister who has worked with Boris Johnson is voting for someone else," he adds.*

*"I think that speaks volumes."*

This was on the BBC wedbsite. The last comment is very telling.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 11, 2019)

Andrea Leadsom cancels News at 10 appearance, on basis she canâ€™t risk being near that many bongs.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 11, 2019)

My Mrs, who is generally correct recons that Johnson will stand down.
Going down as the last ever Tory PM would be too much for his future historical ego.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 11, 2019)

Do you seriously want this guy running the UK.


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## Dellboy (Jun 11, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Do you seriously want this guy running the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Could be worse


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## Pathetic Shark (Jun 11, 2019)

Rory Stewart- it's just dawned on me.  He's the secret love-child of William Dafoe (Platoon) and the winner of the 1983 Oaks.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 11, 2019)

He could be the Tories Ed Milliband.
Think he's toast now anyway after saying hed back Labour's plans to block no deal.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 12, 2019)

Dellboy said:



			Could be worse

View attachment 27531

Click to expand...

You need to think that reply through, oor Nicola has no intention whatsoever of running the UK.
I see she received a really friendly reception in Brussels yesterday


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You need to think that reply through, oor Nicola has no intention whatsoever of running the UK.
I see she received a really friendly reception in Brussels yesterday

Click to expand...

She must have something they want to take.


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## robinthehood (Jun 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			She must have something they want to take.
		
Click to expand...

Who do you want to win out of the 10 contenders


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## patricks148 (Jun 12, 2019)

https://www.facebook.com/HaveIGotNe...809768770138/1158385754345866/?type=3&theater


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## drdel (Jun 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			She must have something they want to take.
		
Click to expand...

Fish, oil and gas.  Irn-Bru !!!!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 12, 2019)

On a purely moral standing, should a few thousand members of a minority government be allowed to elect a PM.
Majority gov........no probs 
Minority not right in my view.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Who do you want to win out of the 10 contenders
		
Click to expand...

To be honest after the debacle we have experienced with Brexit I have almost given up hope with all of them.  Its pretty clear that I just want a clean break from the EU and as soon as possible.   I can't see any of them getting the support from the current bunch of self interested wasters in Parliament to allow this to happen. If I was drawn to pick someone it would probably be Raab or Johnson as they are the most likely to give it a try.
I hope you asked this genuinely and not as a foot in for an oppertunity for some mud slinging .


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2019)

drdel said:



			Fish, oil and gas.  Irn-Bru !!!!
		
Click to expand...

Fried Mars Bars?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 12, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Who do you want to win out of the 10 contenders
		
Click to expand...

Same as Nicola...â€¦â€¦...none of them are worthy.

Thinking of the UK and holding my nose Rory the Tory is less worse than the rest as a leader
 But saying that [cough] .unt is by far the best manager.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			On a purely moral standing, should a few thousand members of a minority government be allowed to elect a PM.
Majority gov........no probs
Minority not right in my view.
		
Click to expand...

Yes they should because they are the party currently in power and they are electing a new leader of the party so by default that person will become PM. If you're not happy then you'll get your chance to change the PM at the next election.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 12, 2019)

If the idiot Johnson wins, letâ€™s see if he practises what he preaches.


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## PieMan (Jun 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			On a purely moral standing, should a few thousand members of a minority government be allowed to elect a PM.
Majority gov........no probs
Minority not right in my view.
		
Click to expand...

So if your mate Nicola resigns/stands down for any reason then you'd be calling for elections to take place in Scotland seeing as the SNP are a minority government?


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## Dando (Jun 12, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Yes they should because they are the party currently in power and they are electing a new leader of the party so by default that person will become PM. If you're not happy then you'll get your chance to change the PM at the next election.
		
Click to expand...

Stop talking sense


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You need to think that reply through, oor Nicola has no intention whatsoever of running the UK.
		
Click to expand...

Thank God for that. I wouldn't trust that horrible woman to run a bath let alone run the UK.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 12, 2019)

Final thought on this matter (see Brexit thread).  I hope Johnson is the next PM so that he can demonstrate his leadership and negotiating qualities as he takes the UK out of the EU without a deal in respect of the Withdrawal Agreement - and then negotiating a favourable trade deal with the EU - given he will have refused to pay the $39bn May signed up to and that the EU will be adamant that we owe.

The alternative?  Jeremy Hunt or Gove?  Well if it is Hunt then he'd better keep a wary eye on his constituency because as a constituent of his I am aware that the Borough that makes up the majority of his constituency gave the Conservatives a massive kicking in both Local and the EU Parliamentary elections - with the Lib Dems romping it in the latter.  South West Surrey is a very strong Remain area; and there has been a strong Lib Dem showing in the past (less so more recent elections).  If Hunt becomes PM and takes the UK out of the EU without a deal it is not outwith the bounds of possibility that he could lose his seat at the next election.

Done,


----------



## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Final thought on this matter (see Brexit thread).  I hope Johnson is the next PM so that he can demonstrate his leadership and negotiating qualities as he takes the UK out of the EU without a deal in respect of the Withdrawal Agreement - and then negotiating a favourable trade deal with the EU - given he will have refused to pay the $39bn May signed up to and that the EU will be adamant that we owe.

The alternative?  Jeremy Hunt or Gove?  Well if it is Hunt then he'd better keep a wary eye on his constituency because as a constituent of his I am aware that the Borough that makes up the majority of his constituency gave the Conservatives a massive kicking in both Local and the EU Parliamentary elections - with the Lib Dems romping it in the latter.  South West Surrey is a very strong Remain area; and there has been a strong Lib Dem showing in the past (less so more recent elections).  If Hunt becomes PM and takes the UK out of the EU without a deal it is not outwith the bounds of possibility that he could lose his seat at the next election.

Done,
		
Click to expand...

Groan!!!  ðŸ˜«


----------



## robinthehood (Jun 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			To be honest after the debacle we have experienced with Brexit I have almost given up hope with all of them.  Its pretty clear that I just want a clean break from the EU and as soon as possible.   I can't see any of them getting the support from the current bunch of self interested wasters in Parliament to allow this to happen. If I was drawn to pick someone it would probably be Raab or Johnson as they are the most likely to give it a try.
I hope you asked this genuinely and not as a foot in for an oppertunity for some mud slinging .
		
Click to expand...


seems like so far they are promising things they probably cant deliver, I dont see how any of them can deliver brexit by haloween, its all well and good giving it the tub thumping noise about keeping the 39bil, but I dont see how he has any more chance then May did.


----------



## Dellboy (Jun 12, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			On a purely moral standing, should a few thousand members of a minority government be allowed to elect a PM.
Majority gov........no probs
Minority not right in my view.
		
Click to expand...

Iâ€™m one of the 160,000 who gets a vote and as I have said before, I'm not electing a PM I'm electing a leader of our party, its the HOC / Queen who does the rest.



Doon frae Troon said:



			Nicola has no intention whatsoever of running the UK.

Click to expand...

No she is just trying to split the UK, thankfully she will fail just like the fool before her.


----------



## Lyle77 (Jun 12, 2019)

Good to see that Boris has got his priorities right.  First priority in office is an immediate tax cut for the wealthy.  
If Boris get's the job then Nicola will be ecstatic as he will be a massive vote winner for the SNP.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 13, 2019)

PieMan said:



			So if your mate Nicola resigns/stands down for any reason then you'd be calling for elections to take place in Scotland seeing as the SNP are a minority government?
		
Click to expand...

Of course, it is the right thing to do.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 13, 2019)

Unbelievable amount of phoo being uttered by many of the candidates.
Do they seriously think the general public are that thick.

Five minutes on interwebby and you can easily find them saying the complete opposite.
In a couple of cases 180degree turns within 24 hours.


----------



## Dando (Jun 13, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Unbelievable amount of phoo being uttered by many of the candidates.
Do they seriously think the general public are that thick.

Five minutes on interwebby and you can easily find them saying the complete opposite.
In a couple of cases 180degree turns within 24 hours.
		
Click to expand...

No different to any MP then


----------



## robinthehood (Jun 13, 2019)

Leadsom out.  That's me happy


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Jun 13, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Leadsom out.  That's me happy
		
Click to expand...

McVey too. Double happiness


----------



## Beezerk (Jun 13, 2019)

Let's go Bo Jo ðŸ˜‚


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 13, 2019)

Beezerk said:



			Let's go Bo Jo ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...

Yeaaaaaaaa, Scotland is desperately hoping he pulls it off.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 13, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			McVey too. Double happiness
		
Click to expand...

I can't watch Years and Years without picturing McVey as the Emma Thomson character.


----------



## Pathetic Shark (Jun 13, 2019)

Esther goes out and the set of TV-AM goes on the psis to celebrate tonight


----------



## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 13, 2019)

Boris, the Bus and HIGNFY


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1139170695181676545


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 13, 2019)

https://wingsoverscotland.com/great-work-lads/#comments

The Scotsman and Truthless Davidson bang on the money there


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## User62651 (Jun 13, 2019)

3 out in one go, that was a good result for round 1. Nutter McVague, treachery with a smile Leadsom and some whip bloke no-one's ever heard of.

When's round 2?

Precedent shows early leader ultimately failing, can't see it this time though, can't wait for PM Johnson vs Citizen Corbyn at PMQs.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 13, 2019)

Scottish Tory MP's who previously all agreed Johnson was toxic now tripping over themselves to say how wonderful he is.
What an odious shower of chancers.


----------



## Dando (Jun 13, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scottish Tory MP's who previously all agreed Johnson was toxic now tripping over themselves to say how wonderful he is.
What an odious shower of chancers.
		
Click to expand...

Arenâ€™t all mps an odious shower of chancers?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 13, 2019)

Dando said:



			Arenâ€™t all mps an odious shower of chancers?
		
Click to expand...

SNP defo ðŸ‘


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 13, 2019)




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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 14, 2019)

Dando said:



			Arenâ€™t all mps an odious shower of chancers?
		
Click to expand...

No not all.
I have known some very good ones in my lifetime.

Latest.......Scottish Secretary of State Mundell saying he would never work with Johnson two weeks ago â€¦.now saying he would happily work with him.
 Scottish Tory MP's are desperately scrabbling about in the muck, they are now toast come the next election/referendum.


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## User62651 (Jun 14, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No not all.
I have known some very good ones in my lifetime.

Latest.......Scottish Secretary of State Mundell saying he would never work with Johnson two weeks ago â€¦.now saying he would happily work with him.
Scottish Tory MP's are desperately scrabbling about in the muck, they are now toast come the next election/referendum.
		
Click to expand...

You'll like this then -
there is quite a bit of Boris related flip flopping going on for sure.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 14, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			You'll like this then -
there is quite a bit of Boris related flip flopping going on for sure.
View attachment 27557

Click to expand...

Chris Cairns is a superb cartoonist.


----------



## ColchesterFC (Jun 14, 2019)

Wasn't sure which thread to put this in but this one seemed as good as any. The following graph shows the results of a YouGov poll on voting intentions if there was a general election....




What I don't understand is how that vote share can then relate to a forecast of projected seats...... 

"Based on current polling the Brexit Party could be on course to win almost 250 seats at a general election, the website Electoral Calculus suggests.
Its analysis of opinion polls at the end of May put the party on 249, short of a majority, based on winning 24.1 per cent of the vote - ahead of Labour on 216. The Tories would become the fourth-largest party with 54 MPs, behind the SNP and only just ahead of the Lib Dems, who would have 51. 
That would set up a potential coalition government between Labour, the Lib Dems and SNP."

How can the Lib Dems only get 51 seats with a 22% vote share but the Conservatives would get 54 seats with a 17% vote share? And Labour with a 19% vote share would get 216 seats? Does anyone understand how that works?


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## Hobbit (Jun 14, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Wasn't sure which thread to put this in but this one seemed as good as any. The following graph shows the results of a YouGov poll on voting intentions if there was a general election....

View attachment 27560


What I don't understand is how that vote share can then relate to a forecast of projected seats......

"Based on current polling the Brexit Party could be on course to win almost 250 seats at a general election, the website Electoral Calculus suggests.
Its analysis of opinion polls at the end of May put the party on 249, short of a majority, based on winning 24.1 per cent of the vote - ahead of Labour on 216. The Tories would become the fourth-largest party with 54 MPs, behind the SNP and only just ahead of the Lib Dems, who would have 51.
That would set up a potential coalition government between Labour, the Lib Dems and SNP."

How can the Lib Dems only get 51 seats with a 22% vote share but the Conservatives would get 54 seats with a 17% vote share? And Labour with a 19% vote share would get 216 seats? Does anyone understand how that works?
		
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You're assuming an even spread of votes in each constituency. The Libdems spread of votes might only be concentrated in a particular geographical area/constituencies. If you have a think on how red the map is up north and how blue it is down south... bit of a simplistic answer but thats the gist of it.


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## robinthehood (Jun 14, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Wasn't sure which thread to put this in but this one seemed as good as any. The following graph shows the results of a YouGov poll on voting intentions if there was a general election....

View attachment 27560


What I don't understand is how that vote share can then relate to a forecast of projected seats......

"Based on current polling the Brexit Party could be on course to win almost 250 seats at a general election, the website Electoral Calculus suggests.
Its analysis of opinion polls at the end of May put the party on 249, short of a majority, based on winning 24.1 per cent of the vote - ahead of Labour on 216. The Tories would become the fourth-largest party with 54 MPs, behind the SNP and only just ahead of the Lib Dems, who would have 51.
That would set up a potential coalition government between Labour, the Lib Dems and SNP."

How can the Lib Dems only get 51 seats with a 22% vote share but the Conservatives would get 54 seats with a 17% vote share? And Labour with a 19% vote share would get 216 seats? Does anyone understand how that works?
		
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Considering they missed out on what was probably thier best ever chance of an MP I'd take that graph with a big pinch of salt


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 14, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Considering they missed out on what was probably thier best ever chance of an MP I'd take that graph with a big pinch of salt
		
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I'm assuming that you mean the Brexit party when you say "best ever chance of an MP"? If so, it would also be accurate to say that they very narrowly missed out on getting an MP in the first, and to date *ONLY*, chance they have had so far of getting an MP, or that in their first ever election they lost by only 2% to the party defending the seat. So yes it was their best ever chance of an MP but equally it has been their only chance so far. But I guess that doesn't suit the spin that you want to put on it.


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## robinthehood (Jun 14, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm assuming that you mean the Brexit party when you say "best ever chance of an MP"? If so, it would also be accurate to say that they very narrowly missed out on getting an MP in the first, and to date *ONLY*, chance they have had so far of getting an MP, or that in their first ever election they lost by only 2% to the party defending the seat. So yes it was their best ever chance of an MP but equally it has been their only chance so far. But I guess that doesn't suit the spin that you want to put on it.
		
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? Yes the brexit party.  What spin ? Under the fptp system id be surprised if they got any mps.  Under the UKIP guise they polled many votes with zero MP s.

Sure maybe this time round they may snatch the odd seat,  but 250 seats ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ you're in dreamland and some


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 14, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			? Yes the brexit party.  What spin ? Under the fptp system id be surprised if they got any mps.  Under the UKIP guise they polled many votes with zero MP s.

Sure maybe this time round they may snatch the odd seat,  but 250 seats ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ you're in dreamland and some
		
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Your spin. They missed their "best ever chance of an MP"? Well technically you're correct it was their best ever chance but it was also the first by election they'd contested so also their first and only chance so far. Losing by 2% is hardly the abject failure you're trying to portray it as.

Why am I "in dreamland"? I simply posted the poll and questioned how they came up with the figures for the seats gained. I haven't claimed that any party would get any number of seats. Did you see the tiny little lines that are floating in the air either side of part of the text I posted? They look a little bit like this ----->  " "    Those little floating lines are also called quotation marks, or open inverted commas and close inverted commas and and are used to show that it was a quote from the article and not my opinion. Glad to be able to educate the youngsters.


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## Dando (Jun 14, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Wasn't sure which thread to put this in but this one seemed as good as any. The following graph shows the results of a YouGov poll on voting intentions if there was a general election....

View attachment 27560


What I don't understand is how that vote share can then relate to a forecast of projected seats......

"Based on current polling the Brexit Party could be on course to win almost 250 seats at a general election, the website Electoral Calculus suggests.
Its analysis of opinion polls at the end of May put the party on 249, short of a majority, based on winning 24.1 per cent of the vote - ahead of Labour on 216. The Tories would become the fourth-largest party with 54 MPs, behind the SNP and only just ahead of the Lib Dems, who would have 51.
That would set up a potential coalition government between Labour, the Lib Dems and SNP."

How can the Lib Dems only get 51 seats with a 22% vote share but the Conservatives would get 54 seats with a 17% vote share? And Labour with a 19% vote share would get 216 seats? Does anyone understand how that works?
		
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Dianne Abbott did the sums!


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 14, 2019)

Dando said:



			Dianne Abbott did the sums!
		
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That can't be true otherwise the Brext party would have won two hundred and eleventy twelve seats with the LibDems on eighteenty four.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 15, 2019)

Well written piece ..â€¦â€¦.the para near the end liking Johnson to Mr Darcy is really funny.

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...he-howard-hughes-of-this-tory-leadership-race


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## robinthehood (Jun 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Your spin. They missed their "best ever chance of an MP"? Well technically you're correct it was their best ever chance but it was also the first by election they'd contested so also their first and only chance so far. Losing by 2% is hardly the abject failure you're trying to portray it as.

Why am I "in dreamland"? I simply posted the poll and questioned how they came up with the figures for the seats gained. I haven't claimed that any party would get any number of seats. Did you see the tiny little lines that are floating in the air either side of part of the text I posted? They look a little bit like this ----->  " "    Those little floating lines are also called quotation marks, or open inverted commas and close inverted commas and and are used to show that it was a quote from the article and not my opinion. Glad to be able to educate the youngsters. 

Click to expand...

So you spin it


ColchesterFC said:



			Your spin. They missed their "best ever chance of an MP"? Well technically you're correct it was their best ever chance but it was also the first by election they'd contested so also their first and only chance so far. Losing by 2% is hardly the abject failure you're trying to portray it as.

Why am I "in dreamland"? I simply posted the poll and questioned how they came up with the figures for the seats gained. I haven't claimed that any party would get any number of seats. Did you see the tiny little lines that are floating in the air either side of part of the text I posted? They look a little bit like this ----->  " "    Those little floating lines are also called quotation marks, or open inverted commas and close inverted commas and and are used to show that it was a quote from the article and not my opinion. Glad to be able to educate the youngsters. 

Click to expand...

No spin, as UKIP 0 seats.  As brexit party 0 seats . These are the facts and  I don't see that changing.  You clearly are  trying to spin it...


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 15, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			So you spin it


No spin, as UKIP 0 seats.  As brexit party 0 seats . These are the facts and  I don't see that changing.  You clearly are  trying to spin it...
		
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I'm not sure how you think any of what I posted is me spinning it. 

It was the first by-election the Brexit Party had fought which clearly means it was their first chance to get an MP. And they lost by 2% of the vote. All three of those things are indisputable facts and can be easily proven as true. So which of those is me putting a spin on things?


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## robinthehood (Jun 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm not sure how you think any of what I posted is me spinning it.

It was the first by-election the Brexit Party had fought which clearly means it was their first chance to get an MP. And they lost by 2% of the vote. All three of those things are indisputable facts and can be easily proven as true. So which of those is me putting a spin on things?
		
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You accuse  me of spinning it one way while you simultaneously spin it another. 

Oof


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 15, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You accuse  me of spinning it one way while you simultaneously spin it another.

Oof
		
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I notice that as is usual with your responses you failed to address the question posed - it's becoming a common theme in your posts. I'll help you out again.... the little curly line with the dot under it at the end of a sentence is called a question mark. It looks a bit like this ---->  ?  That indicates that someone is asking a question. Glad to be able to educate the youngsters, again. 

You either have no idea what spin is or you are being deliberately obtuse. Or both. Perhaps you could explain how posting provable facts is classed as spin in your world. Or perhaps you could actually answer the question for once and explain which of the three things I posted you disagree with or which I have put a spin on.


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## robinthehood (Jun 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I notice that as is usual with your responses you failed to address the question posed - it's becoming a common theme in your posts. I'll help you out again.... the little curly line with the dot under it at the end of a sentence is called a question mark. It looks a bit like this ---->  ?  That indicates that someone is asking a question. Glad to be able to educate the youngsters, again. 

You either have no idea what spin is or you are being deliberately obtuse. Or both. Perhaps you could explain how posting provable facts is classed as spin in your world. Or perhaps you could actually answer the question for once and explain which of the three things I posted you disagree with or which I have put a spin on.
		
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Tbf at this point i absolutely no idea wtf you're on about ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 15, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Tbf at this point i absolutely no idea wtf you're on about ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚ðŸ¤£ðŸ˜‚
		
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Quod Erat Demonstrandum.


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## robinthehood (Jun 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
		
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Good show that was.

Mangetout 

Oof


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## Dando (Jun 15, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I notice that as is usual with your responses you failed to address the question posed - it's becoming a common theme in your posts. I'll help you out again.... the little curly line with the dot under it at the end of a sentence is called a question mark. It looks a bit like this ---->  ?  That indicates that someone is asking a question. Glad to be able to educate the youngsters, again. 

You either have no idea what spin is or you are being deliberately obtuse. Or both. Perhaps you could explain how posting provable facts is classed as spin in your world. Or perhaps you could actually answer the question for once and explain which of the three things I posted you disagree with or which I have put a spin on.
		
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You might have more joy if you write it on the side of a bus


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 15, 2019)

Some scary comparisons there.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 16, 2019)

Colchester...... Just ignore him mate like most others on here do.


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## robinthehood (Jun 16, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Colchester...... Just ignore him mate like most others on here do.
		
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ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## Foxholer (Jun 16, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			...

Itâ€™s all about self promotion
		
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And Boris is the best of the bunch at that! Gove is a close 2nd imo. Both have that key political skill - hipocricy - in spades!

I'm not certain it's a great career move to go for it at this stage though. Unless whoever 'wins' can unite the Tories (and/though the 'honeymoon period' probably helps that) then Parliament will be just as divided in any vote as it was under May! Corbyn will be doing his best to frustrate any proposal, in order to 'justify' a GE - in the hope of reaping the public's frustration in the lack of progress.

Personally, I believe the only really likely prospect is for a default No Deal at Oct 31.


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## Foxholer (Jun 16, 2019)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well, the thought does occur. Remember, he's a classics man. There was a chap in Rome regarded as a buffoon who became Emperor, ( Claudius)!, and IIRC, history regards him as having made not too bad a job of it.
		
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Clavdivs (I've called him that since watching the 'telefication' of Graves's book) was mocked for for his ail;ments (limp and deafness, not the stutter Jocobi added). Boris certainly made a reasonable job as London Mayor - though much of the credit for 'high profile' projects should go to Red Ken, who initiated them! Certainly improved over his embarrasing effort accepting the handover for London Olympics!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 16, 2019)

Watched the debate thsi evening - was more interesting than I thought it would be.  Rory Stewart seemed to be the audience favorite by quite a stretch.  Gove seemed a bit smug and confident; Hunt and Javid actually did OK - Hunt a bit more so than Javid I thought.  Rory Stewart was clearly, to my ears, the audience favourite and they liked and applauded almost all that he said.  And there was Raab - was he punting for the job of leader of the Tories and PM, or for one as a tailors dummy?  Poor he was IMO.


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## Old Skier (Jun 17, 2019)

Well we had a "debate" which proved two things.

1.  None of them understand the latest ultimatum from the EU - that we leave at the end of October deal or no deal, those are the rules and has nothing to do with voting in Parliament or does that mean that remainers want to "take back control".

2.  That they don't understand that if you give the voters a choice, and the voters win then your supposed to do what the voters requested.


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## Crazyface (Jun 17, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Well we had a "debate" which proved two things.

1.  None of them understand the latest ultimatum from the EU - that we leave at the end of October deal or no deal, those are the rules and has nothing to do with voting in Parliament or does that mean that remainers want to "take back control".

2.  That they don't understand that if you give the voters a choice, and the voters win then your supposed to do what the voters requested.
		
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I didn't watch the debate but apparently Dom has said he'd suspend parliament to get the "No Deal" through. And that, for me, shows that he's the man we need.


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## robinthehood (Jun 17, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I didn't watch the debate but apparently Dom has said he'd suspend parliament to get the "No Deal" through. And that, for me, shows that he's the man we need.
		
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What are the main benefits of no deal, as you see them?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			What are the main benefits of no deal, as you see them?
		
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That's easy. It means we can do what we want not what the EU tell us we can do.


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## robinthehood (Jun 17, 2019)

drive4show said:



			That's easy. It means we can do what we want not what the EU tell us we can do.
		
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Hmmm  aside from the fact you apparently ignore me ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ you just can't help yourself can you......

Can you elaborate on what the EU are telling us to do, perhaps some examples?


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## jp5 (Jun 17, 2019)

Wonder if suspending parliament would be so popular if it was Mr Corbyn trying to push through his policies


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Hmmm  aside from the fact you apparently ignore me ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ you just can't help yourself can you......

Can you elaborate on what the EU are telling us to do, perhaps some examples?
		
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Backstop? Remain in a customs agreement? It's not hard to find examples if you look


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## robinthehood (Jun 17, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Backstop? Remain in a customs agreement? It's not hard to find examples if you look 

Click to expand...

Eh, Thats part of a deal negotiated by the Tory party..


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 17, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Eh, Thats part of a deal negotiated by the Tory party..
		
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Yes.... as dictated by the EU as being 'non negotiable'. If we leave with no deal we have the option to tell the EU to shove it if we choose to do so.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 17, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Yes.... as dictated by the EU as being 'non negotiable'. If we leave with no deal we have the option to tell the EU to shove it if we choose to do so.
		
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Mate, Iâ€™m a Leaver, but those options are available to the EU as well. TM always had the option NOT to accept their side of the negotiations.
The No Deal option is a bluff, we need plans for 1st Nov if it happens, nobody, absolutely nobody, has a clue what they are.


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## Old Skier (Jun 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The No Deal option is a bluff, we need plans for 1st Nov if it happens, nobody, absolutely nobody, has a clue what they are.
		
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Very strange that after 2 years warning some big business and the staunch remain Palace of Westminster keep saying their not ready.

There not ready because they don't want to be ready.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 17, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Very strange that after 2 years warning some big business and the staunch remain Palace of Westminster keep saying their not ready.

There not ready because they don't want to be ready.
		
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No, their not ready, because Government needs to lead the way and plan, itâ€™s not all about businessâ€™s being ready.
ie, what happens at the UK borders at 1 minute to midnight and 1 minute past midnight, the answer canâ€™t be, â€œoh nothing, itâ€™ll be alrightâ€ are we sure the EU wonâ€™t change things and if it is nothing, is that done by burying our head in the sand and hoping for the best or is it by doing a â€œDealâ€ with the EU.

Iâ€™m all for a No Deal if itâ€™s planned correctly and done in advance, not all this blustering and argument we have now.


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## Old Skier (Jun 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			No, their not ready, because Government needs to lead the way and plan, itâ€™s not all about businessâ€™s being ready.
ie, what happens at the UK borders at 1 minute to midnight and 1 minute past midnight, the answer canâ€™t be, â€œoh nothing, itâ€™ll be alrightâ€ are we sure the EU wonâ€™t change things and if it is nothing, is that done by burying our head in the sand and hoping for the best or is it by doing a â€œDealâ€ with the EU.

Iâ€™m all for a No Deal if itâ€™s planned correctly and done in advance, not all this blustering and argument we have now.
		
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Parliament refusing to plan for something it doesn't want yet hasn't got the courage to just cancel Brexit because it fears the consequences. Instead they will push for a second referendum in the hope that the people will bail them out. Bunch of cowards with the integrity of a snake.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 17, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Parliament refusing to plan for something it doesn't want yet hasn't got the courage to just cancel Brexit because it fears the consequences. Instead they will push for a second referendum in the hope that the people will bail them out. Bunch of cowards with the integrity of a snake.
		
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So no answer then, no different to DC refusing to allow any plans for a Leave vote.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			So no answer then, no different to DC refusing to allow any plans for a Leave vote.
		
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How can anyone know what they have or have not planned.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			How can anyone know what they have or have not planned.
		
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Have you conveniently forgot the Lorry Parks and contracts to Ferry Companies with no Ferries! Tory Government wasted millions!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Have you conveniently forgot the Lorry Parks and contracts to Ferry Companies with no Ferries! Tory Government wasted millions!

Click to expand...

How can you know what they have or have not planned


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 17, 2019)

Exactly - as in all the planning I was asking about for triggering of Art50 and the negotiations that would follow - and that you assured me would of course be in place and that I was being naive in asking for it. 

Well all that planning turned out super well didn't it.  And all the risk identification, mitigation and contingency planning- all that ran very smoothly also.

In other words - like the rest of us you hadn't a clue what they had or had not planned - you just assumed (like everything else about leaving) that all would be done - all would be OK.

Well let's just leave on 31/10 with _No Deal._  After all - it's what everyone seems to want, and there is no point trying to argue against it.   And let's not worry - because Mr Johnson and his chums will be in charge; will hold the EU to ransom with the Â£39bn withheld - and do some straight talking with the EU in the follow-up negotiations and get us a great free trade deal and all will be well.  Bring it on.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Exactly - as in all the planning I was asking about for triggering of Art50 and the negotiations that would follow - and that you assured me would of course be in place and that I was being naive in asking for it.

Well all that planning turned out super well didn't it.  And all the risk identification, mitigation and contingency planning- all that ran very smoothly also.

In other words - like the rest of us you hadn't a clue what they had or had not planned - you just assumed (like everything else about leaving) that all would be done - all would be OK.

*Well let's just leave on 31/10 with No Deal.  After all - it's what everyone seems to want, and there is no point trying to argue against it.   And let's not worry - because Mr Johnson and his chums will be in charge; will hold the EU to ransom with the Â£39bn withheld - and do some straight talking with the EU in the follow-up negotiations and get us a great free trade deal and all will be well.  Bring it on*.
		
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It might be fine, it might be the best think weâ€™ve ever done, I just want a plan in place to make sure we are covered, and by we I mean all of society, from the most vulnerable to the wealthiest.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Exactly - as in all the planning I was asking about for triggering of Art50 and the negotiations that would follow - and that you assured me would of course be in place and that I was being naive in asking for it.

Well all that planning turned out super well didn't it.  And all the risk identification, mitigation and contingency planning- all that ran very smoothly also.

In other words - like the rest of us you hadn't a clue what they had or had not planned - you just assumed (like everything else about leaving) that all would be done - all would be OK.

Well let's just leave on 31/10 with _No Deal._  After all - it's what everyone seems to want, and there is no point trying to argue against it.   And let's not worry - because Mr Johnson and his chums will be in charge; will hold the EU to ransom with the Â£39bn withheld - and do some straight talking with the EU in the follow-up negotiations and get us a great free trade deal and all will be well.  Bring it on.
		
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Who assured you of anything?   You seem a bit full of your own importance there!


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## Grant85 (Jun 17, 2019)

Obviously I may be wrong, but absolutely none of these guys have a realistic solution to anything. 

Whether the EU are suddenly going to change their tune because they are not dealing with Theresa May - I think is wishful thinking. 
Whether parliament are suddenly going to get in behind a withdrawal agreement they have voted down 3 times - is possible, but unlikely. 
Whether parliament are going to allow a No Deal scenario to take place on 31st October - probably least likely of the 3. 

 Being cynical you'd say they probably care more about being PM than they do about anything they can achieve while they are in office. 

The new PM will still have to deal with the parliamentary arithmetic and there is simply not a viable or workable solution that will have a majority. 

a General Election will likely leave us with no majority for anything and will almost certainly not happen unless several dozen Tories resign from the party and vote down the government. 

a second referendum might be able to squeeze a majority for remaining. But ultimately the country will remain divided and probably we will be only another election away from this being a central issue and the prospect of more EU wranglings.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2019)

Grant85 said:



			Obviously I may be wrong, but absolutely none of these guys have a realistic solution to anything.

Whether the EU are suddenly going to change their tune because they are not dealing with Theresa May - I think is wishful thinking.
Whether parliament are suddenly going to get in behind a withdrawal agreement they have voted down 3 times - is possible, but unlikely.
Whether parliament are going to allow a No Deal scenario to take place on 31st October - probably least likely of the 3.

Being cynical you'd say they probably care more about being PM than they do about anything they can achieve while they are in office.

The new PM will still have to deal with the parliamentary arithmetic and there is simply not a viable or workable solution that will have a majority.

a General Election will likely leave us with no majority for anything and will almost certainly not happen unless several dozen Tories resign from the party and vote down the government.

a second referendum might be able to squeeze a majority for remaining. But ultimately the country will remain divided and probably we will be only another election away from this being a central issue and the prospect of more EU wranglings.
		
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Its politics Jim but not as we know it.


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## patricks148 (Jun 17, 2019)

i did love the way J Hunt kept dropping in his credentials as a successful entrepreneur, i was under the impression all his Businesses failed


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Who assured you of anything?   You seem a bit full of your own importance there!
		
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As we ploughed through the lead up to and after triggering of Art50 many were concerned that it was being done without the necessary planning being done - and when I asked the question it was you who assured me - and you were extremely dismissive (and called me naive) about my asking about the governments plan - because clearly Theresa may and Dave Davies would have a plan and it would be inappropriate for them to make it public knowledge as doing so would undermine our negotiating position.

However if that not how you remember it then so be it.  I am not going to debate it.  There is no point.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 17, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Its politics Jim but not as we know it.
		
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I am not sure that I understand what that means in the context of it being a reply to the points in post - unless it is just a phrase a bit like "Brexit means Brexit" when May was asked what Brexit meant - in other words don't bother asking - all will be OK - you've just got to *believe*.  OK - so I'll just _believe _that 5 of the candidates know how to get a better deal out of the EU - and as one of them might be PM it'll just be the EU that will prevent the deal being done.  OK.  I expect whoever is PM will fail on that and we'll be doing a No Deal departure.  Joy!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As we ploughed through the lead up to and after triggering of Art50 many were concerned that it was being done without the necessary planning being done - and when I asked the question it was you who assured me - and you were extremely dismissive (and called me naive) about my asking about the governments plan - because clearly Theresa may and Dave Davies would have a plan and it would be inappropriate for them to make it public knowledge as doing so would undermine our negotiating position.

However if that not how you remember it then so be it.  I am not going to debate it.  There is no point.
		
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No, I dont remember it but you will have convinced yourself.  I can remember you demanding your own personal plan from the Prime Minister as though you were precious enough to be considered for it.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not sure that I understand what that means in the context of it being a reply to the points in post - unless it is just a phrase a bit like "Brexit means Brexit" when May was asked what Brexit meant - in other words don't bother asking - all will be OK - you've just got to *believe*.  OK - so I'll just _believe _that 5 of the candidates know how to get a better deal out of the EU - and as one of them might be PM it'll just be the EU that will prevent the deal being done.  OK.  I expect whoever is PM will fail on that and we'll be doing a No Deal departure.  Joy!
		
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It was a joke ðŸ™„   Must say, haven't missed your Spanish Inquisitionesqe posting.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No, I dont remember it but you will have convinced yourself.  I can remember you demanding your own personal plan from the Prime Minister as though you were precious enough to be considered for it.
		
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Indeed - I guessed as much - that you wouldn't remember talking of how of course there was a plan but the government couldn't possibly release it - but I do.

No matter.  No point in labouring the point as there is no point in trying to convince some leave voters that No Deal really isn't a good idea.

Meanwhile back in cloud Tory-Land polls reveal that 51% of Tory Party Members (these people being who will provide us with the next PM) voted for TBP in the EU Elections - just who we should put our faith in to choose the next PM - the PM that will reunite the country.  And 63% of the same individuals are happy to see the break up of the UK as a result of leaving the EU.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...ould-sacrifice-union-if-it-meant-brexit-being

Ah well. That's your Tory Party membership for you.  Besides - these are only polls and predictions - can't trust them - been wrong in the past.  Taking back control and handing it over to 160,000 Tory Party Members and a PM called Boris - don't you just love it.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 18, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - I guessed as much - that you wouldn't remember talking up how of course there was a plan but the government couldn't release it - but I do.
		
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I'm pretty sure that going in to the negotiations the government had a plan. And I'm equally sure that it lasted right up until about half an hour after they first sat down with the EU negotiators who looked at the plan and said "No, that's not going to happen" or words to that effect. From that point on I don't think there was a plan or at least not one that was coherent. That's not in any way a criticism of the EU negotiators who did a great job on behalf of the EU which is what they were there to do.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 18, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			I'm pretty sure that going in to the negotiations the government had a plan. And I'm equally sure that it lasted right up until about half an hour after they first sat down with the EU negotiators who looked at the plan and said "No, that's not going to happen" or words to that effect. From that point on I don't think there was a plan or at least not one that was coherent. That's not in any way a criticism of the EU negotiators who did a great job on behalf of the EU which is what they were there to do.
		
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Totally agree and it was at that point TM should of stood up to them and walked away.


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## USER1999 (Jun 18, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			That's not in any way a criticism of the EU negotiators who did a great job on behalf of the EU which is what they were there to do.
		
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I am not sure they did though, as if it does not get through it is not a good deal for anyone. It does not look likely to get done, so it's revoke art 50, or no deal. If art 50 is revoked, or the deal signed off, then yes, the EU team will have done a good job. If it's no deal, then they have been as useless as our lot.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 18, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			I am not sure they did though, as if it does not get through it is not a good deal for anyone. It does not look likely to get done, so it's revoke art 50, or no deal. If art 50 is revoked, or the deal signed off, then yes, the EU team will have done a good job. If it's no deal, then they have been as useless as our lot.
		
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The difference being they are more likely than us to have a No Deal Plan ready to go should it happen.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 18, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The difference being they are more likely than us to have a No Deal Plan ready to go should it happen.
		
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Why do you think they are any more prepared than us Paul?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 18, 2019)

murphthemog said:



			I am not sure they did though, as if it does not get through it is not a good deal for anyone. It does not look likely to get done, so it's revoke art 50, or no deal. If art 50 is revoked, or the deal signed off, then yes, the EU team will have done a good job. If it's no deal, then they have been as useless as our lot.
		
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This with knobs on. It is like arguing the Treaty of Versailles was a great deal when it pretty much laid the foundations for WW2. A good deal has to pass and be equitable for both sides. At the moment it can't even pass so it is a failure from both parties.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 18, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Why do you think they are any more prepared than us Paul?
		
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Because they have been all along, Cameron refused to allow any planning for a no vote, within hours of the vote being released the remaining EU Leaders issued a statement on the UK/EU future, we went through turmoil, DC resigned and then a GE, all the while the EU were planning the negotiations.
They very much show a joined up picture (even if they arenâ€™t) TM lost negotiators, Cabinet Ministers, etc etc.
Iâ€™d like to believe Iâ€™m wrong, just recent history says otherwise.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 18, 2019)

Everyone is quoting the 160k membership of the Tory Party [inc me] when in reality the official number is 124k
That is for the whole of the UK not like the SNP who have roughly the same number of members in Scotland alone.
Population of Scotland is about 11% of the UK.
I wonder how many of those actual Tory members will vote, I would guess about 60%.
Add to that a recent poll which stated that about 60% of those Tory members would be happy to destroy the Union, the UK economy and even the Tory party to get Brexit through.
Seriously scary stuff. Britain is about to be destroyed by about 44,000 right wing extremists.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 18, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Everyone is quoting the 160k membership of the Tory Party [inc me] when in reality the official number is 124k
That is for the whole of the UK not like the SNP who have roughly the same number of members in Scotland alone.
Population of Scotland is about 11% of the UK.
I wonder how many of those actual Tory members will vote, I would guess about 60%.
Add to that a recent poll which stated that about 60% of those Tory members would be happy to destroy the Union, the UK economy and even the Tory party to get Brexit through.
Seriously scary stuff. Britain is about to be destroyed by about 44,000 right wing extremists.
		
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Give it a rest! Itâ€™s insulting and inflammatory.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 18, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Because they have been all along, Cameron refused to allow any planning for a no vote, within hours of the vote being released the remaining EU Leaders issued a statement on the UK/EU future, we went through turmoil, DC resigned and then a GE, all the while the EU were planning the negotiations.
They very much show a joined up picture (even if they arenâ€™t) TM lost negotiators, Cabinet Ministers, etc etc.
Iâ€™d like to believe Iâ€™m wrong, just recent history says otherwise.
		
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My view is that the EU are just basically saying no to every request we make in the belief that they will beat us into submission and we withdraw A50. If/when we do finally leave it will come as a bit of a shock to them if it's with no deal and they suddenly start to panic over their 24 billion of German car exports.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 18, 2019)

drive4show said:



			My view is that the EU are just basically saying no to every request we make in the belief that they will beat us into submission and we withdraw A50. If/when we do finally leave it will come as a bit of a shock to them if it's with no deal and they suddenly start to panic over their 24 billion of German car exports.
		
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If youâ€™re right that makes TM even worse, she should of had the backbone to walk away, sheâ€™d probably still be PM if sheâ€™d done that.

My issue with simply walking away is that without at least a plan they hold as many cards as us.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 18, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			The difference being they are more likely than us to have a No Deal Plan ready to go should it happen.
		
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Don't be silly Paul. Of course we have a plan in place for a no deal exit. It goes a bit like this..........

https://gfycat.com/secretleafyannelida


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 18, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Don't be silly Paul. Of course we have a plan in place for a no deal exit. It goes a bit like this..........

https://gfycat.com/secretleafyannelida

Click to expand...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 18, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - I guessed as much - that you wouldn't remember talking of how of course there was a plan but the government couldn't possibly release it - but I do.

No matter.  No point in labouring the point as there is no point in trying to convince some leave voters that No Deal really isn't a good idea.

Meanwhile back in cloud Tory-Land polls reveal that 51% of Tory Party Members (these people being who will provide us with the next PM) voted for TBP in the EU Elections - just who we should put our faith in to choose the next PM - the PM that will reunite the country.  And 63% of the same individuals are happy to see the break up of the UK as a result of leaving the EU.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...ould-sacrifice-union-if-it-meant-brexit-being

Ah well. That's your Tory Party membership for you.  Besides - these are only polls and predictions - can't trust them - been wrong in the past.  Taking back control and handing it over to 160,000 Tory Party Members and a PM called Boris - don't you just love it.
		
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Looks like we have to relive the diatribes you were spewing out three years ago. And! You must have been dreaming if you think I would give you any reassurances about politicians plans.   The vacation did nothing to declutterr your Brexit obsessive disorder then.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 18, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Give it a rest! Itâ€™s insulting and inflammatory.
		
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https://wingsoverscotland.com/
You sure.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 18, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Looks like we have to relive the diatribes you were spewing out three years ago. And! You must have been dreaming if you think I would give you any reassurances about politicians plans.   The vacation did nothing to declutterr your Brexit obsessive disorder then.
		
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Same old same old condescending dismissals - but I ain't bothered.

Which part of what I posted do you disagree with?  

I'm not surprised by the poll results given the post EU referendum poll that indicated 51% of Tory Party members voted Brexit Party - and in this survey published today nearly 50% of Tory Party members would have Farage as Tory Party Leader,

Conservative and *Unionist *party?  Looking forward to hearing the candidates respond to the findings of the poll; unlike most opinion polls a poll of 900 is not actually an insignificant percentage of the membership - especially given that the poll is of a very specific part of the electorate.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 18, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Same old same old condescending dismissals - but I ain't bothered.

Which part of what I posted do you disagree with? 

I'm not surprised by the poll results given the post EU referendum poll that indicated 51% of Tory Party members voted Brexit Party - and in this survey published today nearly 50% of Tory Party members would have Farage as Tory Party Leader,

Conservative and *Unionist *party?  Looking forward to hearing the candidates respond to the findings of the poll; unlike most opinion polls a poll of 900 is not actually an insignificant percentage of the membership - especially given that the poll is of a very specific part of the electorate.
		
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I disagree with just about everything you posted.

Regarding this current post, I have no interest in any of it as its just a continued white noise.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 18, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Same old same old condescending dismissals - but I ain't bothered.

Which part of what I posted do you disagree with? 

I'm not surprised by the poll results given the post EU referendum poll that indicated 51% of Tory Party members voted Brexit Party - and in this survey published today nearly 50% of Tory Party members would have Farage as Tory Party Leader,

Conservative and *Unionist *party?  Looking forward to hearing the candidates respond to the findings of the poll; unlike most opinion polls a poll of 900 is not actually an insignificant percentage of the membership - especially given that the poll is of a very specific part of the electorate.
		
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Yes, they have to drop the Unionist name from their party now or fall foul of the trades description act.


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## Old Skier (Jun 18, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://wingsoverscotland.com/
You sure.
		
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You really should stop posting items from your racist little blog.


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## User62651 (Jun 18, 2019)

Future PM debate.

Q1 - can you guarantee leaving EU on 31.10.19?

Right from the off 4 could not guarantee, just waffled round it pretending they can somehow renegotiate the WA, RStewart at least said no.

Usual political noise. Tedious.

3 questions asked, none of the questioners have had their questions answered so far.

Mattis needs to start embarrassing them more when they will not answer direct questions.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 18, 2019)

Any one  else watching the debate on bbc1, what a shambles.

ps is Rory , Teresa May in drag ?


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## robinthehood (Jun 18, 2019)

Oof accidently turned over to it. Gove has a stupid face


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## User62651 (Jun 18, 2019)

Understanding why team Boris are so keen to keep him locked away after that ramble about islamaphobia. Not good.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 18, 2019)

Oh hells teeth that was dire.  I can't think of anything from any of them that really that made me think - oh that was good - or - oh that was bad.  And I was watching as an interested observer wanting to hear something that gave me an inclining of hope.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 18, 2019)

That was absolutely horrendous, terrible set up, presenter and a Oxbridge boy band on speed.
Great finale with a Glasgow teenager slowly shaking her head at the 'top' Tory politicians.


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## Kellfire (Jun 18, 2019)

To think how many people actually vote conservative. Youâ€™d think theyâ€™d be utterly ashamed but sadly not, theyâ€™ve brainwashed themselves.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 19, 2019)

Four drunks and their designated driver talking pish.
What a superb description on Wings,


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## drdel (Jun 19, 2019)

Well the  BBC's 'debate' was one of their worst current affairs programmes I've yet seen.

The studio setup, with the candidates sat like coconuts, was stupid and now we have body language 'experts' telling us they were 'manspreading' - how else to you manage to sit on a high stool.

The presenter, Maitlis (she's pretty useless on Newsnight as well) was utter rubbish and held no control: the setup put her out of the loop.


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## User62651 (Jun 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Four drunks and their designated driver talking pish.
What a superb description on Wings,
		
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Never looked at that website and I live here. My assumption is it's cybernat spun propaganda, I am wrong? Never going to be balanced so you're never going to get sensible commentary from there, surely? Just confirmation bias.

I watched the 'debate' and it was not too helpful. However these candidates have to fit a square peg in a round hole, they know it can't really be done but they're going to pretend it can be just to land the top job. If they are brutally honest they won't get the support they need. All bar Stewart are party and power first, country second. Nothing new there, that's politics.

Anyway onwards. Raab gone so who get's his 30 votes - has to be Boris mainly I think, possibly a few to Hunt. Javid and Stewart won't get those and are toast today or tomorrow I think. Gove will linger a bit longer.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Four drunks and their designated driver talking pish.
What a superb description on Wings,
		
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More insults!


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## Swinglowandslow (Jun 19, 2019)

drdel said:



			Well the  BBC's 'debate' was one of their worst current affairs programmes I've yet seen.

The studio setup, with the candidates sat like coconuts, was stupid and now we have body language 'experts' telling us they were 'manspreading' - how else to you manage to sit on a high stool.

The presenter, Maitlis (she's pretty useless on Newsnight as well) was utter rubbish and held no control: the setup put her out of the loop.
		
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I think you were not the first to think "set up like coconuts"
The tv wouldn't have seen it that way, er.. would they? All set up to be knocked over?
Every funfair goer knows that coconuts on pedestals are there to be knocked over. .
What surprises me is that the "contestants" agreed to such a set up. They should have refused , en masse, to be seated like that.
But then they probably thought that the idea was for us to hear their words of wisdom, as opposed to the tv wanting to "entertain "by showing them up.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 19, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			More insults!
		
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or a satirical observation...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			or a satirical observation...
		
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Did you see a link so it could be read and put in context or simply another sound bite?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 19, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			To think how many people actually vote conservative. Youâ€™d think theyâ€™d be utterly ashamed but sadly not, theyâ€™ve brainwashed themselves.
		
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And the difference voting Labour is?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 19, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			More insults!
		
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Oh lighten up..... it was just a funny non Tory supporting observation.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jun 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Oh lighten up..... it was just a funny non Tory supporting observation.
		
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Itâ€™s constant from you, do you ever wonder why no one will have a sensible debate with you, I canâ€™t stand the tories, but your posts are inane drivel 99% of the time.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 19, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Never looked at that website and I live here. My assumption is it's cybernat spun propaganda, I am wrong? Never going to be balanced so you're never going to get sensible commentary from there, surely? Just confirmation bias..
		
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You should check it out,
If you are a massive fan of the Union or a member of the OO you will not like it.

It dispels much of the distorted media lies/information floating around Scotland basically a good fact checker [like The Ferret]
He is an independence supporter, not an SNP supporter and is quite critical of them at times.
He can be quite rude and offensive but also funny. The designated driver joke was from a normal poster, not him.
I follow Wings, Wee Ginger Dug [who is excellent], Craig Murray, David Bateman and Fosh all different views but informative in their own way.

https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2019/05/20/spoilt-for-choice/


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## SocketRocket (Jun 19, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			He can be quite rude and offensive but also funny.
		
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Bit like you Doom, except your not funny ðŸ‘


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## SocketRocket (Jun 19, 2019)

I see the hand picked Imam  on the program turns out to be a blatant anti Semite ðŸ™„


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## Hobbit (Jun 19, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Itâ€™s constant from you, do you ever wonder why no one will have a sensible debate with you, I canâ€™t stand the tories, but your posts are inane drivel 99% of the time.
		
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I see he posted a critique on the Tories splitting up the Union. He's been posting constant drivel from the SNP on independence for years. Pot and kettle spring to mind.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 19, 2019)

Wondering whether the Johnson camp will do a bit of their own form of 'gerrymandering' of the vote - asking some of their support to vote for Javid to get rid of Stewart.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I see the hand picked Imam  on the program turns out to be a blatant anti Semite ðŸ™„
		
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Have you heard or read the response from the BBC on this?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Have you heard or read the response from the BBC on this?
		
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Yes, squirming.  Did you also read his views on Women being raped. I see another questioner who was a solicitor turns out to be a Labour activist.  You couldn't make it up.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, squirming.  I see another questioner who was a solicitor turns out to be a Labour activist.  You couldn't make it up.
		
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Are you suggesting they should have an easy ride with only questions from team blue rinse?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 19, 2019)

Didn't see Stewart numbers actually falling - but giddy-up-a A.B.deP


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, squirming.  Did you also read his views on Women being raped. I see another questioner who was a solicitor turns out to be a Labour activist.  You couldn't make it up.
		
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Yes you could - didn't seem to harm A.B.deP


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## SocketRocket (Jun 19, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Are you suggesting they should have an easy ride with only questions from team blue rinse?
		
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No, but leave out the political activists, rape defenders and racists please, or do you consider these better?  Your ageist comment is surprising.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 19, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Didn't see Stewart numbers actually falling - but giddy-up-a A.B.deP
		
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What are you talking about?


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## MegaSteve (Jun 19, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No, but leave out the political activists, rape defenders and racists please, or do you consider these better?  Your ageist comment is surprising.
		
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I'd like to have seen Baroness Warsi asking some questions... That would've rattled Boris for sure...


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## Fade and Die (Jun 19, 2019)

So Lord Charles is now eliminated, what a nonsense this process is, Boris has as many supporters as the rest combined,  Tory MPâ€™s have clearly already made up their minds who they want as their next leader. Just get Boris in and get on with Brexiting.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jun 20, 2019)

This whole farce is like taking a bunch of 20+ handicappers and having them compete for a scratch trophy.  Then again none of the other parties would be much better as Wee Burney would claim the rules were broken and Diane Abbott would claim she shot -6.     At least Boris has the chance to make a couple of birdies amongst all the bogeys.   We just need to hope they come by October 31st and he takes us out of the EU regardless.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What are you talking about?
		
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Sorry - I assumed that Mr Johnsonâ€™s forenames initials were known.  So rock on A.B.deP to leading the country.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2019)

Not the slightest bit of support for Johnson at the bowls club last night, even the polite wee blue rinse ladies were swearing.
Unusual as church, fitba and politics are generally NEVER talked about.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 20, 2019)

Nicky Morgan being interviewed earlier as supporter of MichaelG tells us that as PM he will legislate with the aim of preventing Scottish independence - because as she reminded the interviewer - the Tory Party is the Conservative and *Unionist *party.  Now that'll go down well with Sturgeon, Blackford et al. Actually they will probably smile as they see and hear the Tory Party doing the hard miles for the SNP...


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## User62651 (Jun 20, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Nicky Morgan being interviewed earlier as supporter of MichaelG tells us that as PM he will legislate with the aim of preventing Scottish independence - because as she reminded the interviewer - the Tory Party is the Conservative and *Unionist *party.  Now that'll go down well with Sturgeon, Blackford et al. Actually they will probably smile as they see and hear the Tory Party doing the hard miles for the SNP...
		
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Daft if he has said that, you don't win hearts and minds or unify/heal division through threats.  Tories don't know what to say or do presently, they're leaking support and potential votes in all directions. Existential crisis.


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## IanM (Jun 20, 2019)

BBC Debate nicely orchestrated, shame about the chap they lined up to attack Boris!  Campbell even had to apologise about him.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 20, 2019)

IanM said:



			BBC Debate nicely orchestrated, shame about the chap they lined up to attack Boris!  Campbell even had to apologise about him.  

Click to expand...

They were all Tories and they were all 100% supporting Brexit - and A.B.deP had avoided the first round of questioning of the Ch4 debate, and - as most very probably our next PM - maybe he needed a little bit more questioning to give him the opportunity to explain his vision, values and policies.

I have no idea how the BBC chooses individual for the screening - but that chap should not have got there.  In any case - the BBC kindly chose a Brexit party supporter to ask the first question - a nicely dolly for A.B.deP


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 20, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Daft if he has said that, you don't win hearts and minds or unify/heal division through threats.  Tories don't know what to say or do presently, they're leaking support and potential votes in all directions. Existential crisis.
		
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Other than what Nicky Morgan said this morning I have no idea if he has said it or not - certainly the interviewer was slightly taken aback and checked to see if she had heard right.


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## robinthehood (Jun 20, 2019)

Why do keep calling him A.B.dep? Is that like the clever people calling tiger eldrick?


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## PieMan (Jun 20, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Why do keep calling him A.B.dep? Is that like the clever people calling tiger eldrick?
		
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Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson. And in answer to your question, it's probably yes!


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## robinthehood (Jun 20, 2019)

PieMan said:



			Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson. And in answer to your question, it's probably yes! 

Click to expand...

Yeah i know its his initials,  but he's known as Boris.  Seems a little odd to  call him otherwise.


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## PieMan (Jun 20, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yeah i know its his initials,  but he's known as Boris.  Seems a little odd to  call him otherwise.
		
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Totally agree!


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## JamesR (Jun 20, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			...  Seems a little odd to  call him otherwise.
		
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I think it's because to call him Boris makes him seem human, and we all know that can't be true


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## jp5 (Jun 20, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1141395599910166530


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 20, 2019)

Javid is now out, it's a fight between Johnson, Hunt and Gove. Can either Hunt or Gove beat Johnson?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 20, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - I assumed that Mr Johnsonâ€™s forenames initials were known.  So rock on A.B.deP to leading the country.
		
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Do you realise how desperate and child like that makes you look.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 20, 2019)

Referring to someone by their initials is childish?  OK then - Mr Johnson if you prefer - or would BJ be OK...

Looking forward to a BJ/MG faceoff - and I look forward to he public debate where these two - who (along with F) led the public Leave vote - explain to us what they are looking to achieve in the renegotiations and the plan for the new deal they will seek to deliver to parliament.  

Meanwhile still hoping that BJ comes out on top (as he almost inevitably will) and he leads his team delivering his plan.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 20, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Meanwhile still hoping that BJ comes out on top (as he almost inevitably will) and he leads his team delivering his plan.
		
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Sounds like you've become a Brexiteer


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Sounds like you've become a Brexiteer 

Click to expand...

..or a Scots independence supporter.
Bit of a win/win.


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## Hobbit (Jun 20, 2019)

drive4show said:



			Sounds like you've become a Brexiteer 

Click to expand...

Must be. There's no emoji's in his post.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2019)

Och well, at least us Scots will not need Sajid's permission to do stuff now.

https://metro.co.uk/2019/05/30/sajid-javid-trolled-entire-nation-scotland-referendum-snub-9737222/


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## Foxholer (Jun 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you realise how desperate and child like that makes you look.
		
Click to expand...


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## User62651 (Jun 20, 2019)

Damn, was looking forward to Gove v Johnson getting dirty and personal.

Instead we have Hunt, about as exciting as a slug.

Booooo!

I'm out.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 20, 2019)

Foxholer said:





Click to expand...

Do you ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£


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## Jamesbrown (Jun 20, 2019)

Iâ€™ll be expecting my postal vote soon. +1 for Barmy Boris!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 20, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Must be. There's no emoji's in his post.
		
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Indeed there aren't.

I have resigned myself to BJ as PM and him taking us out on a _No Deal_ on 31/10 - as much as I detest so much about BJ and what he stands for (himself primarily) - and I fear that a _No Deal _Brexit will be, at the very best, damaging in the short term.  I have now taken this position as I just cannot be bothered getting worked up or arguing about so much of what I hear from Leave leaders and voters that I consider deluded tripe, based upon little more than optimistic assertions and assumptions (when what some call realistic but pessimistic assertions and assumptions made on the other side of the fence are simply dismissed out of hand as Project Fear).

And so I am thinking that there is no point protesting.  I hear so many leave voters now say that as the ballot paper said _Leave _or _Remain, _with no mention of any deal, then of course _No Deal_ is what 17.4m of the electorate votes for (yes really that is what I hear so many say) - then I shrug and frankly give up. 

Let's just leave with _No Deal _and let's have BJ leading us and showing us his vision, leadership and negotiating skills.   Because that is lovely and clean and it will be 100% clear who is responsible for all the plaudits when the UK flourishes in the Brave New World that such as Johnson, Davies, Fox and the ERG have been promising for four years.  And I will applaud their vision and optimism when that transpires.  And loudly shall I play Glittering Prize and Promised you a Miracle - Simple Minds....


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## chrisd (Jun 20, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed there aren't.

I have resigned myself to BJ as PM and him taking us out on a _No Deal_ on 31/10 - as much as I detest so much about BJ and what he stands for (himself primarily) - and I fear that a _No Deal _Brexit will be, at the very best, damaging in the short term.  I have now taken this position as I just cannot be bothered getting worked up or arguing about so much of what I hear from Leave leaders and voters that I consider deluded tripe, based upon little more than optimistic assertions and assumptions (when what some call realistic but pessimistic assertions and assumptions made on the other side of the fence are simply dismissed out of hand as Project Fear).

And so I am thinking that there is no point protesting.  I hear so many leave voters now say that as the ballot paper said _Leave _or _Remain, _with no mention of any deal, then of course _No Deal_ is what 17.4m of the electorate votes for (yes really that is what I hear so many say) - then I shrug and frankly give up.

Let's just leave with _No Deal _and let's have BJ leading us and showing us his vision, leadership and negotiating skills.   Because that is lovely and clean and it will be 100% clear who is responsible for all the plaudits when the UK flourishes in the Brave New World that such as Johnson, Davies, Fox and the ERG have been promising for four years.  And I will applaud their vision and optimism when that transpires.  And loudly shall I play Glittering Prize and Promised you a Miracle - Simple Minds....
		
Click to expand...

Good for you, we all knew you'd realise you got it wrong all those posts ago


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## SocketRocket (Jun 20, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed there aren't.

I have resigned myself to BJ as PM and him taking us out on a _No Deal_ on 31/10 - as much as I detest so much about BJ and what he stands for (himself primarily) - and I fear that a _No Deal _Brexit will be, at the very best, damaging in the short term.  I have now taken this position as I just cannot be bothered getting worked up or arguing about so much of what I hear from Leave leaders and voters that I consider deluded tripe, based upon little more than optimistic assertions and assumptions (when what some call realistic but pessimistic assertions and assumptions made on the other side of the fence are simply dismissed out of hand as Project Fear).

And so I am thinking that there is no point protesting.  I hear so many leave voters now say that as the ballot paper said _Leave _or _Remain, _with no mention of any deal, then of course _No Deal_ is what 17.4m of the electorate votes for (yes really that is what I hear so many say) - then I shrug and frankly give up.

Let's just leave with _No Deal _and let's have BJ leading us and showing us his vision, leadership and negotiating skills.   Because that is lovely and clean and it will be 100% clear who is responsible for all the plaudits when the UK flourishes in the Brave New World that such as Johnson, Davies, Fox and the ERG have been promising for four years.  And I will applaud their vision and optimism when that transpires.  And loudly shall I play Glittering Prize and Promised you a Miracle - Simple Minds....
		
Click to expand...

Does that mean you will now stop posting on Brexit.
Please say yes!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 20, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Does that mean you will now stop posting on Brexit.
Please say yes!
		
Click to expand...

No.  And I have not admitted I was wrong.  I suspect that for many any deal of any sort will not be good enough for the majority of leavers as leave now seems to mean No Deal because nowhere on the ballot paper was the word _Deal .  C_omplete rubbish of course but that is where we now seem to be. And I'd just rather have this and so be it in order that we keep Farage as far as possible from Westminster.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2019)

Truthless Davidson now going for her third Tory leadership recommendation 
Johnson and Hunt desperately hoping she does not pick them.

Davidson now backing Hunt...â€¦â€¦...ladies and gentlemen I give you the last ever Tory Prime Minister, Alexander Johnson


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## User62651 (Jun 21, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			Iâ€™ll be expecting my postal vote soon. +1 for Barmy Boris!
		
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He's not barmy, all a contrived act, you've been conned.

His language over the years is often racist, offensive, rude, snobbish, inappropriate. He is also a liar and an adulterer and a drug taker.
But if that's what it takes to be PM.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jun 21, 2019)

I wonder if Cameron sees the irony of his actions giving a man he hates the job he had


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## spongebob59 (Jun 21, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			He's not barmy, all a contrived act, you've been conned.

His language over the years is often racist, offensive, rude, snobbish, inappropriate. He is also a liar and an adulterer and a drug taker.
But if that's what it takes to be PM.

Click to expand...

Some if not all of these could also be labelled on the man who would be king too.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 21, 2019)

Looking at Boris Johnson claims about WTO Gatt Article 24 as expressed in the debate earlier this week

https://fullfact.org/europe/boris-johnson-gatt-article-24/

And the Trade Experts on BJ on WTO Gatt Article 24

https://www.politico.eu/article/why-gatt-24-wont-help-a-no-deal-brexit-uk/

And the Bank of England Governor yesterday on BJ on WTO Gatt Article 24

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ismisses-boris-johnson-trade-claim-on-no-deal

Well what do the  experts know about this stuff when BJ knows all...trust in BJ.

Better still - I hope that BJ takes this opportunity to put them (and JH as he'll no doubt ask) in their place by telling us why they are wrong and his plan for between now and 31/10 for making trade under WTO Gatt Article 24 happen from 1/11.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 21, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			He's not barmy, all a contrived act, you've been conned.

His language over the years is often racist, offensive, rude, snobbish, inappropriate. He is also a liar and an adulterer and a drug taker.
But if that's what it takes to be PM.

Click to expand...

Oops

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ed-to-loud-altercation-at-boris-johnsons-home


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## Hobbit (Jun 22, 2019)

Unless Hunt pulls a rabbit out of the hat the UK is gong to get a Trump-lite PM. Thankfully, with a minority govt he can't do much damage.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Unless Hunt pulls a rabbit out of the hat the UK is gong to get a Trump-lite PM. Thankfully, with a minority govt he can't do much damage.
		
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Boris may self destruct if he has more evenings like last night.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 22, 2019)

Sounds a bit suspicious to me , they record an argument through a wall, call the police nd then sell the story to a newspaper.


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## Pro Zach (Jun 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Unless Hunt pulls a rabbit out of the hat the UK is gong to get a Trump-lite PM. Thankfully, with a minority govt he can't do much damage.
		
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Itâ€™s hard to decide who would make the worst PM between Hunt and Johnson, but if Hunt produces a rabbit then the rabbit gets my vote.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Sounds a bit suspicious to me , they record an argument through a wall, call the police nd then sell the story to a newspaper.
		
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She was screaming and they thought she was being beaten up.
They knocked on her door, no reply and silence.

What would you have done in those circumstances.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 22, 2019)

Not immediately sold the story to the paper.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 22, 2019)

No one has established Boris was there.  He has that place up for sale and has two others he regularly lives in.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No one has established Boris was there.  He has that place up for sale and has two others he regularly lives in.
		
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If he wasn't he would have told everyone. He was at a hustings today and just stated that no one wanted to know about it so he wasn't going to answer questions on the subject.  I think people do want to know but it was a cute way to dodge the issue, for today.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 22, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If he wasn't he would have told everyone. He was at a hustings today and just stated that no one wanted to know about it so he wasn't going to answer questions on the subject.  I think people do want to know but it was a cute way to dodge the issue, for today.
		
Click to expand...

As I said, No one has established he was there.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Not immediately sold the story to the paper.
		
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You did not surprise me with that response.
Now please tell us all what would you have done in the same circumstances [before you decided not to sell your story to the press.]


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			As I said, No one has established he was there.
		
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Why repeatedly evade the subject if you weren't even in the house? It is an easy story to kill if inaccurate.


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## patricks148 (Jun 22, 2019)

looks like all the Tory supporters are the same as the MP they vote for ....... in that river in Egypt


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## larmen (Jun 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Unless Hunt pulls a rabbit out of the hat the UK is gong to get a Trump-lite PM. Thankfully, with a minority govt he can't do much damage.
		
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I still canâ€™t see how party members, conservatives or republicans, can actively vote for a racist as their leader.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 22, 2019)

larmen said:



			I still canâ€™t see how party members, conservatives or republicans, can actively vote for a racist as their leader.
		
Click to expand...

Suggesting a woman wearing a burka looks like a post box may be a rude comment but its not racist. Saying women wearing burkas are inferior to women not wearing burkas is racist.   Is suggesting a bishops mitre makes him look like a fish racist?


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## robinthehood (Jun 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No one has established Boris was there.  He has that place up for sale and has two others he regularly lives in.
		
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Are you trying to pretend it was someone else arguing and  not Boris and his girlfriend?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 22, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Are you trying to pretend it was someone else arguing and  not Boris and his girlfriend?
		
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No, I'm not pretending anything. I said no one has established he was there, nothing more.


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## robinthehood (Jun 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No, I'm not pretending anything. I said no one has established he was there, nothing more.
		
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you mean other than the people who heard it and reported the to the police


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## Kellfire (Jun 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Suggesting a woman wearing a burka looks like a post box may be a rude comment but its not racist. Saying women wearing burkas are inferior to women not wearing burkas is racist.   Is suggesting a bishops mitre makes him look like a fish racist?
		
Click to expand...

Youâ€™re an absolute idiot. Letterbox? Watermelon smile?

Heâ€™s a racist. Itâ€™s absolutely clear heâ€™s a racist.


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## drdel (Jun 22, 2019)

I was under the impression that recording a private conversation without the person's permission was illegal. 

I also observe the Guardian and the neighbour support 'remain'


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## SocketRocket (Jun 22, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Youâ€™re an absolute idiot. Letterbox? Watermelon smile?

Heâ€™s a racist. Itâ€™s absolutely clear heâ€™s a racist.
		
Click to expand...

Seems more like you're immature and incapable of reasoned discussion.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 22, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			you mean other than the people who heard it and reported the to the police  

Click to expand...

The report i read said they heard an arguement. It didnt say it was him, you seem to have other information.   It may well have been him but no one has substantiated it.  Maybe thats a little difficult for you to take in.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 23, 2019)

Newspapers who have hacked phones [inc a dead childs] attack couple who recorded a violent incident.
Remember, before the couple rang the police they knocked on the door and shouted through the letterbox When they receiving no reply and silence they then rang the police.

Sheer desperation coming from Johnson supporters.


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## robinthehood (Jun 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The report i read said they heard an arguement. It didnt say it was him, youporn.com seem to have other information.   It may well have been him but no one has substantiated it.  Maybe thats a little difficult for you to take in.
		
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Oh dear .ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£ðŸ¤£.


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## Imurg (Jun 23, 2019)

Couple have row
Neighbours call police 
Police arrive
Police leave saying no laws have been broken.
End of (non)story..


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 23, 2019)

drdel said:



			I was under the impression that recording a private conversation without the person's permission was illegal.

I also observe the Guardian and the neighbour support 'remain'
		
Click to expand...

I don't think that recording them in itself is illegal as in the cases of someone making complaints about noisy neighbours they are told to list all of the incidents for a month and record them before the council will act. Don't know how the law stands on if you were to then make those recordings public.


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## robinthehood (Jun 23, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Couple have row
Neighbours call police
Police arrive
Police leave saying no laws have been broken.
End of (non)story..
		
Click to expand...

Maybe if that neighbour is mr average joe, but when its the man who is a dead cert for prime minister then its in the public interest.
He should have took the opportunity yesterday to answer questions and put it to bed himself.


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## Imurg (Jun 23, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Maybe if that neighbour is mr average joe, but when its the man who is a dead cert for prime minister then its in the public interest.
He should have took the opportunity yesterday to answer questions and put it to bed himself.
		
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He probably should have bit the point is that it shouldn't have got to that.
Once the neighbours knew that no laws had been broken that should have been the end of it.
But they saw an opportunity, political or financial, to make a gain from it.
Instead of thinking " ok, they had a row but the police are happy" they sought to gain from it by going to a newspaper.


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## robinthehood (Jun 23, 2019)

Imurg said:



			He probably should have bit the point is that it shouldn't have got to that.
Once the neighbours knew that no laws had been broken that should have been the end of it.
But they saw an opportunity, political or financial, to make a gain from it.
Instead of thinking " ok, they had a row but the police are happy" they sought to gain from it by going to a newspaper.
		
Click to expand...

Right or wrong, thats how things are if your in the public eye.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 23, 2019)

Imurg said:



			Couple have row
Neighbours call police
Police arrive
Police leave saying no laws have been broken.
End of (non)story..
		
Click to expand...

We are told that this happens quite a lot in cases of domestic abuse.
Police have no evidence and one of the partners is too scared to say what happened.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 23, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			looks like all the Tory supporters are the same as the MP they vote for ....... in that river in Egypt 

Click to expand...

As someone said before on here, it's like a poundland Donald Trump, where instead of his unquestioning cult like following being fed propganda through Fox News we have it through The Telegraph over here.  I thought the UK was better than that and could see through such charlatans and chancers who just use cheap populism as a way to quench their desparate narcassistic need for power and mask their many inadequacies.  But it seems not as Brexit seems to have caused people to lose their minds .


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## Imurg (Jun 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			We are told that this happens quite a lot in cases of domestic abuse.
Police have no evidence and one of the partners is too scared to say what happened.
		
Click to expand...

And you know this to be the case?
I'm not saying it doesn't happen because obviously it does.
But I don't know, you don't know...only they know.
And the fact that the neighbours are left-wing and Anti-Brexit has, of course, nothing to do with it...allegedly.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 23, 2019)

Imurg said:



			And you know this to be the case?
I'm not saying it doesn't happen because obviously it does.
But I don't know, you don't know...only they know.
And the fact that the neighbours are left-wing and Anti-Brexit has, of course, nothing to do with it...allegedly.
		
Click to expand...

The information was passed on to me by the police at a licencee's meeting in Wltshire.
Which neighbours BTW, two sets gave the same information only one to the police as far as I know.


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## Lyle77 (Jun 23, 2019)

The Steve Bannon links to Boris Johnson are somewhat alarming and further proof that Johnson is a liar with links to extreme right wing viewpoints.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jun 23, 2019)

Boris is clearly untrustworthy, a serial womaniser, a bounder, a blitherer and utter scoundrel, 

A miniature blonde Trumpesque figure 

How did he ever get into the position of being a virtual shoe in as next PM?

Iâ€™d rather see Alan Bâ€™Stard  get the job

I donâ€™t think anything that Hunt does is going to make any difference at all


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## robinthehood (Jun 23, 2019)

Radio article saying this has had a bad effect on Boris popularity amongst the party members. Maybe not such a shoe in anymore ?


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## Hobbit (Jun 23, 2019)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Boris is clearly untrustworthy, a serial womaniser, a bounder, a blitherer and utter scoundrel,

A miniature blonde Trumpesque figure

How did he ever get into the position of being a virtual shoe in as next PM?

Iâ€™d rather see Alan Bâ€™Stard  get the job

I donâ€™t think anything that Hunt does is going to make any difference at all
		
Click to expand...

All we can hope for is that the 160,000 Tory party members have a better grasp on reality than those in the Westminster bubble.


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## Jamesbrown (Jun 23, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			Youâ€™re an absolute idiot. Letterbox? Watermelon smile?

Heâ€™s a racist. Itâ€™s absolutely clear heâ€™s a racist.
		
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How is he a racist, without me googling Iâ€™d like to know how? Iâ€™m very suspicious of the â€œracistâ€ word. It gets thrown around far too easily! Iâ€™d almost suggest that racism is a substantially low today in Britain. 
I believe itâ€™s just a distaste to certain cultures that donâ€™t fit into our own. 
Disliking a colour of skin is rare. Even in my ex BNP stronghold and whitelaw band showing town.  
I donâ€™t think they look like letterboxes, I think more like ninjas?


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## MegaSteve (Jun 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			All we can hope for is that the 160,000 Tory party members have a better grasp on reality than those in the Westminster bubble.
		
Click to expand...

I don't believe too many party members that are also his constituents will be too keen to cast their vote in his favour...


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 23, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			How is he a racist, without me googling Iâ€™d like to know how? Iâ€™m very suspicious of the â€œracistâ€ word. It gets thrown around far too easily! Iâ€™d almost suggest that racism is a substantially low today in Britain.
I believe itâ€™s just a distaste to certain cultures that donâ€™t fit into our own.
Disliking a colour of skin is rare. Even in my ex BNP stronghold and whitelaw band showing town. 
I donâ€™t think they look like letterboxes, I think more like ninjas?
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s certainly a juicy post for people to grab onto but most will I guess see that itâ€™s one thatâ€™s just looking for attention 

Boris Johnson has made derogatory comments towards people based on their looks or items they were that are related to their race or beliefs. 

As for racism in the UK

https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/news/racism-is-still-a-huge-problem/

http://www.irr.org.uk/research/statistics/racial-violence/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....se-since-brexit-vote-nationwide-study-reveals


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## Jamesbrown (Jun 23, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Thatâ€™s certainly a juicy post for people to grab onto but most will I guess see that itâ€™s one thatâ€™s just looking for attention

Boris Johnson has made derogatory comments towards people based on their looks or items they were that are related to their race or beliefs.

As for racism in the UK

https://www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/news/racism-is-still-a-huge-problem/

http://www.irr.org.uk/research/statistics/racial-violence/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....se-since-brexit-vote-nationwide-study-reveals

Click to expand...


I donâ€™t look for attention, Iâ€™m not on here enough to receive it or benefit. 
The problem with those linked articles. (One being from the guardian) they donâ€™t go into specifics. No story or evidence, Words used, what ethnicity they was, how they was a victim. 

I had to look for the Boris remarks and Iâ€™ve found the already mentioned â€œletterboxâ€ comment and the â€œwatermelon smilesâ€. Thatâ€™s it. 

Iâ€™m failing to see racism in either of those. Purely descriptive words.
 In other news , Chinese peopleâ€™s eyes are angled upwards.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 23, 2019)

Jamesbrown said:



			How is he a racist, without me googling Iâ€™d like to know how? Iâ€™m very suspicious of the â€œracistâ€ word. It gets thrown around far too easily! Iâ€™d almost suggest that racism is a substantially low today in Britain. 
I believe itâ€™s just a distaste to certain cultures that donâ€™t fit into our own. 
Disliking a colour of skin is rare. Even in my ex BNP stronghold and whitelaw band showing town.  
I donâ€™t think they look like letterboxes, I think more like ninjas?
		
Click to expand...

If he is not a racist then he is making an excellent impersonation of being so... Or, more worryingly, he is guaging his utterances to appeal to the lowest common denominator amongst the tory faithful....


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## SocketRocket (Jun 23, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			If he is not a racist then he is making an excellent impersonation of being so... Or, more worryingly, he is guaging his utterances to appeal to the lowest common denominator amongst the tory faithful....
		
Click to expand...

Do you understand what 'Racist' actually means?  Maybe you should look it up then measure his comments against the meaning.


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## Hobbit (Jun 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you understand what 'Racist' actually means?  Maybe you should look it up then measure his comments against the meaning.
		
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He's a racist. Have a look at the definition of cultural racism. There is also a term called "othering," which is used to describe a particular culture's attributes as inferior. Clumsy on my part with the definitions but basically his letter box comments are racist.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			He's a racist. Have a look at the definition of cultural racism. There is also a term called "othering," which is used to describe a particular culture's attributes as inferior. Clumsy on my part with the definitions but basically his letter box comments are racist.
		
Click to expand...

Several years ago I was in Sharjah, near Dubai, for work and posted a Facebook update that said...."Just seen someone in a red burka. That reminds me, I must send my postcards". I hadn't actually seen a anyone in a red burka but was using the image of burka (which I had seen frequently in other colours) as the set up for a joke comparing it to the look of a UK postbox. I don't believe that my comment was racist, simply an observation in the same way that if I'd seen a member of a motorcycle gang dressed in leather and made a joke about S&M.


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## Old Skier (Jun 23, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Several years ago I was in Sharjah, near Dubai, for work and posted a Facebook update that said...."Just seen someone in a red burka. That reminds me, I must send my postcards". I hadn't actually seen a anyone in a red burka but was using the image of burka (which I had seen frequently in other colours) as the set up for a joke comparing it to the look of a UK postbox. I don't believe that my comment was racist, simply an observation in the same way that if I'd seen a member of a motorcycle gang dressed in leather and made a joke about S&M.
		
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Worlds gone mad and there are those that have to show their PC-ness in the fear of they themselves being branded. People have forgotten how to laugh at themselves.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you understand what 'Racist' actually means?  Maybe you should look it up then measure his comments against the meaning.
		
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I'll be assuming  you agree then that his utterances are designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator of the party faithful....

And, I am quite comfortable with my own opinion on what constitutes a racist... Maybe you should broaden you own readings for some enlightenment...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 23, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			I'll be assuming  you agree then that his utterances are designed to appeal to the lowest common denominator of the party faithful....

And, I am quite comfortable with my own opinion on what constitutes a racist... Maybe you should broaden you own readings for some enlightenment...
		
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I know the meaning and its not what has been quoted here.  The racist card gets drawn too easily these days and often completely out of true context, its a cheap way of slighting someone.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 23, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Several years ago I was in Sharjah, near Dubai, for work and posted a Facebook update that said...."Just seen someone in a red burka. That reminds me, I must send my postcards". I hadn't actually seen a anyone in a red burka but was using the image of burka (which I had seen frequently in other colours) as the set up for a joke comparing it to the look of a UK postbox. I don't believe that my comment was racist, simply an observation in the same way that if I'd seen a member of a motorcycle gang dressed in leather and made a joke about S&M.
		
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If someone suggested a Bishop's mitre made him look like a fish then there would be no suggestion of racism, what about a Nun looking like a penguin.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			He's a racist. Have a look at the definition of cultural racism. There is also a term called "othering," which is used to describe a particular culture's attributes as inferior. Clumsy on my part with the definitions but basically his letter box comments are racist.
		
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Surely racism suggests a race (not relegion) is inferior not their mode of dress.  I think a burka is a symbol of femail repression, does that make me a racist?


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## Hobbit (Jun 23, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Several years ago I was in Sharjah, near Dubai, for work and posted a Facebook update that said...."Just seen someone in a red burka. That reminds me, I must send my postcards". I hadn't actually seen a anyone in a red burka but was using the image of burka (which I had seen frequently in other colours) as the set up for a joke comparing it to the look of a UK postbox. I don't believe that my comment was racist, simply an observation in the same way that if I'd seen a member of a motorcycle gang dressed in leather and made a joke about S&M.
		
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Making a racist comment and being a racist is 2 different things. Also, what's deemed racist in one country is accepted in another - its a minefield. But here's a thought; there's accepted language to describe fat/thin/tall/small people. Then there's the physical disabilities that can be described sympathetically or otherwise. The same applies to how people dress. It look like, on face value, might be okay but it looks like, in a derogatory way isn't okay. Even as a joke, both sides have to be able to laugh about it. His comment compared those that wore a burka as bank robbers, but equally he said he hoped that the UK wouldn't follow Denmark's lead and ban the burka.

At the end of the day the Met Police deemed he didn't reach the threshold for racism. Crass and insensitive absolutely. And the fact that it referred to a particular ethnicity/religion, racist in my eyes.


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## Hobbit (Jun 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely racism suggests a race (not relegion) is inferior not their mode of dress.  I think a burka is a symbol of femail repression, does that make me a racist?
		
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But if a particular race wears a type of dress... semantics I know but I'd see it as racism. The burka as a symbol of female repression; some say it is and some say it isn't. How many westerners think it is and how many burka wearers think it is? I'm not sure that's a defining comment, and I'm inclined to think there's a superior attitude displayed by westerners who use the cop out of suppression to say its not right. No doubt there are some burka wears who feel suppressed but is it the wearing of the burka or the whole 2nd class citizen that makes them feel repressed?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 23, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			But if a particular race wears a type of dress... semantics I know but I'd see it as racism. The burka as a symbol of female repression; some say it is and some say it isn't. How many westerners think it is and how many burka wearers think it is? I'm not sure that's a defining comment, and I'm inclined to think there's a superior attitude displayed by westerners who use the cop out of suppression to say its not right. No doubt there are some burka wears who feel suppressed but is it the wearing of the burka or the whole 2nd class citizen that makes them feel repressed?
		
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Its OK if they have a choice free from intimidation from their own race/religion.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 24, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Worlds gone mad and there are those that have to show their PC-ness in the fear of they themselves being branded. People have forgotten how to laugh at themselves.
		
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I'd be hoping anyone seeking to lead/represent a multi-cultural nation in all the high places around the globe is able to set their moral compass  a whole lot higher than Boris appears able to do so...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			I'd be hoping anyone seeking to lead/represent a multi-cultural nation in all the high places around the globe is able to set their moral compass  a whole lot higher than Boris appears able to do so...
		
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Multi-culturalism has been a complete failure and needs a determined effort to change it to an integrated culture.


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## Kellfire (Jun 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Multi-culturalism has been a complete failure and needs a determined effort to change it to an integrated culture.
		
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If only the proud indigenous whitey had accepted others into our great empire, eh?


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## MegaSteve (Jun 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Multi-culturalism has been a complete failure and needs a determined effort to change it to an integrated culture.
		
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And Boris, with his utterances, is helping that exactly how?


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## Crazyface (Jun 24, 2019)

I saw an American comedy TV show that had something that was showing a commentator say what could be interpreted as  be racist and the main character was then shown as calling for his "Racist Card" which was brought to him by his supposed bulter and in a a velvet lined box. I thought this was quite amusing, and thought it was poking a bit of fun at those who use this "Racist" call just a little too much.  I must admit it is getting a little wearing to hear it rolled out sooooooooo much.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2019)

https://news.sky.com/politics

Disappointed that our future leader and PM is eschewing the opportunity planned for tomorrow to prove that he is NOT a coward and avoiding party member and public scrutiny - BJ needs to prove to JH and the non-believers - the doubters - that they are quite wrong to suggest such a thing.

Thought JH did reasonably well this morning on LBC in the face of a fairly hostile grilling by Nick Ferrari - mind you we don't know if Ferrari would put BJ under the same hostile scrutiny because - so far - BJ has declined to be interviewed by both Ferrari and Iain Dale - both of whom have interviewed all PM candidates over the last few weeks.  All except BJ.  Come on BJ - what's up?  Your silence is giving me the HeeBee BeeJays...Ferrari, Dale and Hunt are friends!


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## Foxholer (Jun 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



https://news.sky.com/politics

Disappointed that our future leader and PM is eschewing the opportunity to prove that he is NOT a coward and avoiding party member and public scrutiny - BJ needs to prove to JH and the non-believers - the doubters - that they are quite wrong to suggest such a thing.
...
		
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Maybe morally, but not politically! Btw...'possible/likely' future leader and PM....!


SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...
Thought JH did reasonably well this morning on LBC in the face of a fairly hostile grilling by Nick Ferrari - mind you we don't know if Ferrari would put BJ under the same hostile scrutiny because - so far - BJ has declined to be interviewed by both Ferrari and Iain Dale - both of whom have interviewed all PM candidates over the last few weeks.  All except BJ.  Come on BJ - what's up?  Your silence is giving me the HeeBee BeeJays...
		
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Again, probably a good decision by Boris!

In extended 1-to-1 interviews, Boris's 'bumbling buffoon' style comes across, at least to me, as inept. Whereas his 'off-the-cuff' replies to 'snippet-style' questions don't seem to - as much. So avoiding 'serious' interviews is probably a good tactic curently. He'll have to change his style somewhat IF he wins!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2019)

Hunt doing the Jim Murphy thing of being photographed with a fish supper and drinking a can of Irn Bru to show how 'Scottish' he is.
Both end up looking like total planks as they forgot the CU Jimmy hat.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2019)

Kellfire said:



			If only the proud indigenous whitey had accepted others into our great empire, eh?
		
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Err what?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Why repeatedly evade the subject if you weren't even in the house? It is an easy story to kill if inaccurate.
		
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And the police will know if he was there.  Besides where was he if he was not there?  Easy for him to tell us that he was at 23 Railway Cuttings, East Cheam at the time of the incident.  And then if it was not him - who the blazes was it having a row with the partner of the future PM.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Looking at Boris Johnson claims about WTO Gatt Article 24 as expressed in the debate earlier this week

https://fullfact.org/europe/boris-johnson-gatt-article-24/

And the Trade Experts on BJ on WTO Gatt Article 24

https://www.politico.eu/article/why-gatt-24-wont-help-a-no-deal-brexit-uk/

And the Bank of England Governor yesterday on BJ on WTO Gatt Article 24

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ismisses-boris-johnson-trade-claim-on-no-deal

Well what do the  experts know about this stuff when BJ knows all...trust in BJ.

Better still - I hope that BJ takes this opportunity to put them (and JH as he'll no doubt ask) in their place by telling us why they are wrong and his plan for between now and 31/10 for making trade under WTO Gatt Article 24 happen from 1/11.
		
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Oh dear - BJ misses chance, provided by Sky News, to explain tomorrow how Gatt Article 24 will work post a _No Deal_ Brexit.


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## User62651 (Jun 24, 2019)

Main problem for Boris is not how he gets to be PM, that's still pretty much a shoe-in. It's how he's going to meet the pledges he's making about getting out of EU at end October come what may and thereby keep Farage and his hordes at bay.

He is so divisive and marmite people will not compromise for him. Hunt is more likely to be able to cross divides I think, more likely to listen. Hunt is being more realistic and honest about matters currently than Boris.

So already noises of some anti Boris Tory MPs backing a cross party no confidence motion in a future BJ Govt if he attempts to exit with No Deal. He loses that then his Govt is ended and he'd need to resign, then General Election time and new Tory leader? From there would likely be a hung parliament and coalition govt with a good number of new Brexit Party MPs.

How the EU view end October deadline if UK is still in turmoil politically is anyone's guess.

A rainbow coalition that gets nothing done or that finds compromise and gets us moving forward again? However unless Corbyn/McDonnell disappear then that's not going to happen. I could see Hunt speaking to some like Benn/Starmer/Watson/Cooper if they were Labour leaders so making some progress.

Surely the Tory membership who vote on PM in a few weeks can see the bigger picture? They need to pick Hunt but wont, Boris is just winging it.

As many ifs, buts and maybes as ever. Boris becoming PM can't resolve this, too many red lines already.


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## Foxholer (Jun 24, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Multi-culturalism has been a complete failure and needs a determined effort to change it to an integrated culture.
		
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Please explain what the failings have been! There have certainly been 'conflicts', but certainly not 'a complete failure'!

I'm inclined to believe Multi-culturalism - with certain (reasonable and natural) shared core/fundamental principals - is the ONLY sensible approach!


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 24, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			So already noises of some anti Boris Tory MPs backing a cross party no confidence motion in a future BJ Govt if he attempts to exit with No Deal. He loses that then his Govt is ended and he'd need to resign, then General Election time and new Tory leader? From there would likely be a hung parliament and coalition govt with a good number of new Brexit Party MPs.
		
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Is he forced to resign if he loses a no confidence vote? I thought that it simply meant that they had to try to form new partnerships to get a majority or call a GE at which he could still lead the party?


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## Foxholer (Jun 24, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Main problem for Boris is not how he gets to be PM, that's still pretty much a shoe-in. It's how he's going to meet the pledges he's making about getting out of EU at end October come what may and thereby keep Farage and his hordes at bay.

He is so divisive and marmite people will not compromise for him. Hunt is more likely to be able to cross divides I think, more likely to listen. Hunt is being more realistic and honest about matters currently than Boris.

So already noises of some anti Boris Tory MPs backing a cross party no confidence motion in a future BJ Govt if he attempts to exit with No Deal. He loses that then his Govt is ended and he'd need to resign, then General Election time and new Tory leader? From there would likely be a hung parliament and coalition govt with a good number of new Brexit Party MPs.

How the EU view end October deadline if UK is still in turmoil politically is anyone's guess.

A rainbow coalition that gets nothing done or that finds compromise and gets us moving forward again? However unless Corbyn/McDonnell disappear then that's not going to happen. I could see Hunt speaking to some like Benn/Starmer/Watson/Cooper if they were Labour leaders so making some progress.

Surely the Tory membership who vote on PM in a few weeks can see the bigger picture? They need to pick Hunt but wont, Boris is just winging it.

As many ifs, buts and maybes as ever. Boris becoming PM can't resolve this, too many red lines already.
		
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I'm certain that EU is tied to text of Article 50, just as much as UK is! And that means that unless an extension is agreed, then UK WILL leave on 31 Oct. And while court rulings mean that Parliament, rather than Executive/Cabinet must 'approve' changes top laws that it (Parliament) has made, EU Law still overrides UK Law until it actually leaves! So the default 'Leave on 31 Oct if no agreement' situation still applies!

I believe any Tory internal conflict would be tempered by the realisation that a GE would mean they would be likely/almost certainly booted out of power! Tory MPs - even knowing his style - have already strongly indicated their preference for him as PM, so I don't see an anti-Boris coup even if there's more disruption on Brexit. It screwing up the economy that is most likely to topple him - and the expected issues _caused _ by Brexit will, imo, actually give him some breathing space, as everyone anticipates initial 'problems'.

Remember that the Tory Party are, generally, extremely focused on their primary aim - staying in power!


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## Pro Zach (Jun 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			He's a racist. Have a look at the definition of cultural racism. There is also a term called "othering," which is used to describe a particular culture's attributes as inferior. Clumsy on my part with the definitions but basically his letter box comments are racist.
		
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Cultural racism is NOT racism. It is an idea made up by idiots and introduced into our cultural narrative. It is one of the many irrational ideas in society that makes people think that â€˜the worlds gone madâ€™.

Racism is the discrimination or judgement of people based on race or racial features. As these do not determine the character or behaviour of a person, racism is irrational and wrong.

Cultural racism claims that the discrimination or judgement of people based on culture is the same as racism. This is obscene.

Culture is the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society. The judgement and discrimination of peoples beliefs and social behaviour is not only rational but essential. How anyone could suggest the judgement of people based on their beliefs and behaviour is the same as judging on their skin colour is beyond me.

Do you think the Nazi culture of gassing Jews is acceptable? No? Congratulations, you are a racist.

I think Boris Johnson's comment about the Hijab was inappropriate because of his position. But it doesnâ€™t make him racist. I suspect people think the â€˜jokeâ€™ was racist and sexist  because the only people wearing it are Muslim women. This is a false assumption. We have no evidence or reason to believe he wouldnâ€™t have made the same â€˜jokeâ€™ if some male Christians and atheist transvestites also wore it.

While Iâ€™m here, probably convincing you of nothing, can I also suggest you stop allowing religions to be classed as a race. Religious ideology, like any other ideology, must be open to criticism. â€˜Religious racismâ€™ has no more validity than Cultural racism. They are both obnoxious methods of shutting down debate and criticism of beliefs and behaviour.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I'm certain that EU is tied to text of Article 50, just as much as UK is! And that means that unless an extension is agreed, then UK WILL leave on 31 Oct. And while court rulings mean that Parliament, rather than Executive/Cabinet must 'approve' changes top laws that it (Parliament) has made, EU Law still overrides UK Law until it actually leaves! So the default 'Leave on 31 Oct if no agreement' situation still applies!

I believe any Tory internal conflict would be tempered by the realisation that a GE would mean they would be likely/almost certainly booted out of power! Tory MPs - even knowing his style - have already strongly indicated their preference for him as PM, so I don't see an anti-Boris coup even if there's more disruption on Brexit. It screwing up the economy that is most likely to topple him - and the expected issues _caused _ by Brexit will, imo, actually give him some breathing space, as everyone anticipates initial 'problems'.

Remember that the Tory Party are, generally, extremely focused on their primary aim - staying in power!
		
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That might generally have been the case, but that would no longer appear to be so going by the polled views of the Tory party membership (the numbers being so far outside the margin of polling error that I think the polling can be taken to be a reflection of the majority).  A Brexit _No Deal  _would seem to be the focus for them - nothing else matters - the polling indicating that Brexit is even more important than the continuing existence of both the Tory Party and the United Kingdom.  And that is why they want BJ as PM - as he has promised them that for 31/10 No Ifs - No Buts.

It's a pity tht BJ (my preferred leader of the Tories and new PM) is declining to explain how, before 31/10, he'll get the deal (I suspect his party membership doesn't want) negotiated and signed off by the EU and parliament; and in the event of that not happening by 31/10 what as PM he will do to mitigate risks that have been well articulated, and what risk contingencies he'll have put in place for us leaving with _No Deal _on 31/10.

Explanation and some detail from him would all be good. But in the interests of becoming leader and PM - it's  probably best he doesn't try.

Anyway - a Panelbase/Sunday Times poll suggests that a UK PM called BJ might tip the balance in favour of the pesky Scots going their own way - with 51/49 in favour of staying in the UK switching to 53/47 in favour of leaving with BJ as PM.  All just polls.  But members f the Conservative and *Unionist* Party must be careful what they wish for.

https://www.businessinsider.com/sco...hnson-becomes-prime-minister-2019-6?r=US&IR=T


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## Foxholer (Jun 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That might generally have been the case, but that would no longer appear to be so going by the polled views of the Tory party membership (the numbers being so far outside the margin of polling error that I think the polling can be taken to be a reflection of the majority).  A Brexit _No Deal  _would seem to be the focus for them - nothing else matters - the polling indicating that Brexit is even more important than the continuing existence of both the Tory Party and the United Kingdom.  And that is why they want BJ as PM - as he has promised them that for 31/10 No Ifs - No Buts.
...
		
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Oh, this issue - there's no doubt that sorting out (No) Brexit definitely supercedes all other Tory issues. But doing so in a way that keeps them in power is also a top priority!

I'm uncertain whether a 'No Deal' is the priority/favoured route, but it's certainly at least 2nd choice (after 'Reasonable Deal')! May's 'deal' was neither of those!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Oh, this issue - there's no doubt that sorting out (No) Brexit definitely supercedes all other Tory issues. But doing so in a way that keeps them in power is also a top priority!

I'm uncertain whether a 'No Deal' is the priority/favoured route, but it's certainly at least 2nd choice (after 'Reasonable Deal')! May's 'deal' was neither of those!
		
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IMO *any* deal (even if such were possible and agreed before 31/10) will be portrayed as a betrayal of the 'Will of the People' by such as the ERG and TBP.  If we care to listen we can hear many Leave voters now explain that the referendum voting paper said _Leave _or _Remain_; that as there was no mention of _Deal _on the voting paper that clearly implies that 17.4m of the electorate voted leave on the basis that he UK leaves without a deal.  And that is why BJ is able to commit to leaving on 31/10 - No Ifs No Buts.


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## Hobbit (Jun 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			IMO *any* deal (even if such were possible and agreed before 31/10) will be portrayed as a betrayal of the 'Will of the People' by such as the ERG and the BP.  If we care to listen we can hear many Leave voters now explain that the referendum voting paper said _Leave _or _Remain_; that as there was no mention of _Deal _on the voting paper that clearly implies that UK leaves without a deal.
		
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If you could be bothered to look up the speeches made by politicians in the run up to the vote, both sides, especially Remain, were saying out of the customs union and out of the single market. Isn't it a bit perverse that its mainly Remainers who are the ones playing word games with now people know and where's the deal... Many Leavers are just saying Leave.


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## Foxholer (Jun 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			IMO *any* deal (even if such were possible and agreed before 31/10) will be portrayed as a betrayal of the 'Will of the People' by such as the ERG and TBP.  If we care to listen we can hear many Leave voters now explain that the referendum voting paper said _Leave _or _Remain_; that as there was no mention of _Deal _on the voting paper that clearly implies that 17.4m of the electorate voted leave on the basis that he UK* leaves without a deal*.  And that is why BJ is able to commit to leaving on 31/10 - No Ifs No Buts.
		
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I completely disagree!

You statement is self-contradictory! As there was no mention of a deal, then all that matters is we leave! 'Leave without a deal' has no greater standing than 'Leave with a deal'! A (decent) deal is preferable, but it's leaving that is essential (if we are to accept the Referendum result). And that's why BJ's 'No If; No Buts' is. imo, the correct approach! It would normally be a better negotiating position too. But, for the reasons the likes of ERG/TBP promote, that's probably irrelevant when negotiating with the, current, EU! I'm pretty certain that 'any deal' would actually be promoted as an achievement, but that's probably just my cynicism. May's deal was certainly promoted as such, but was (potentially) disastrous imo!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			I completely disagree!

You statement is self-contradictory! As there was no mention of a deal, then all that matters is we leave! 'Leave without a deal' has no greater standing than 'Leave with a deal'! A (decent) deal is preferable, but it's leaving that is essential (if we are to accept the Referendum result). And that's why BJ's 'No If; No Buts' is. imo, the correct approach! It would normally be a better negotiating position too. But, for the reasons the likes of ERG/TBP promote, that's probably irrelevant when negotiating with the, current, EU!
		
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I am simply stating what I have heard an increasing number of Leave votes articulate as the rationale for their demanding we leave on 31/10 - even if that means leaving with no deal having been agreed.  It is my _view _that the ERG and TBP actually wish UK to leave without a deal as any attempt to get a deal will simply result in an extension to timescales and that is unacceptable.  IMO on 31/10 we will be leaving without a deal and I want BJ to be the PM taking us out on 31/10.


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## Foxholer (Jun 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am simply stating what I have heard an increasing number of Leave votes articulate as the rationale for their demanding we leave on 31/10 - even if that means leaving with no deal having been agreed.  It is my _view _that the ERG and TBP actually wish UK to leave without a deal as any attempt to get a deal will simply result in an extension to timescales and that is unacceptable.  IMO on 31/10 we will be leaving without a deal and I want BJ to be the PM taking us out on 31/10.
		
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Your previous post implied a rather different belief.

The 'even if no deal' approach is my preference (now). I believe that's also the view of ERG/TBP, but agree about an (another!) extension being unacceptable! Happy/Keen for a (decent) deal to be negotiated, but it mustn't require a further extension!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Please explain what the failings have been! There have certainly been 'conflicts', but certainly not 'a complete failure'!

I'm inclined to believe Multi-culturalism - with certain (reasonable and natural) shared core/fundamental principals - is the ONLY sensible approach!
		
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This article explains it better than I could:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/homo-consumericus/201210/multiculturalism-failed-policy


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## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am simply stating what I have heard an increasing number of Leave votes articulate as the rationale for their demanding we leave on 31/10 - even if that means leaving with no deal having been agreed.  It is my _view _that the ERG and TBP actually wish UK to leave without a deal as any attempt to get a deal will simply result in an extension to timescales and that is unacceptable.  IMO on 31/10 we will be leaving without a deal and I want BJ to be the PM taking us out on 31/10.
		
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My preference is for us to leave in October, I would prefer the EU to start negotiations on a Free Trade Arrangement and for us to promise EU citizens rights and the divorce payment in return. There could be an interim period while these talks are taking place where we make contributions to the EU but not as members.   If the EU would not concede this then its over and out.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 24, 2019)

I think a John Gummer hamburger/ David Mellor family at gate type spin photo is coming your way soon.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			If you could be bothered to look up the speeches made by politicians in the run up to the vote, both sides, especially Remain, were saying out of the customs union and out of the single market. Isn't it a bit perverse that its mainly Remainers who are the ones playing word games with now people know and where's the deal... Many Leavers are just saying Leave.
		
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They are saying that for 17.4m voters _Leave _has always meant _Leave _with _No Deal _despite all the words spoken by the Leave campaign prior to the vote on the sort of Deal we were likely to be aiming for, and when any warning words were spoken by the _Remain _they were dismissed out of hand as either lies or exaggerations - and not to be believed by any potential _Leave _voter.   In fact my understanding is that the _No Deal _ option for leaving only came into common parlance in October 2016.  It really wasn't something that was expected or promoted prior to the vote.

BJ is the man to take us out on 31/10 without a deal agreed as that is what 17.4m of the electorate voted for.  Result.  Brexit vote delivered.


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## Hobbit (Jun 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thy are saying that _Leave _means _Leave _with _No Deal _despite all the words spoken prior to the vote on the sort of Deal we were likely to be aiming for. These were just words and when any warning words were spoken by the _Remain _they were dismissed out of hand as either lies or exaggerations - and not to be believede by any potential Leave voter.   In fact my understanding is that the _No Deal _ option for leaving only came into common parlance in October 2016.  It really wasn't something that was expected or promoted prior to the vote.
		
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Cameron, Clegg and Osbourne said no customs union and no single market numerous times BEFORE the referendum. Boris, Gove and Farage also spoke of of Leave meaning no CU and no SM. They spoke of negotiating a good deal with the EU. And what deal did May come back with?

I don't see why No Deal shouldn't be spoken about, and I think thats a good thing. If the EU think the UK won't leave without a deal they know that they can put a poor deal on the table and the UK will either accept or not leave.

What can the UK offer the EU for a decent deal. Money, access to the fishing grounds, equitable tariffs/no tariffs/equitable pricing on agri goods. And what did May agree to? You can have Â£39bn, you can have continued access to the fishing grounds, you can have everything you've asked for with regards to agri goods(inc. a monitoring organisation set up by the UK that reports to the EU on pricing and standards, and any deviation will see the UK in the European courts). And the UK got what? Sweet FA apart from a letter to talk about the future relationship - wow!

Just for a second, irrespective of the impact on trade either way, what will the EU most desperately need if the UK leaves the EU? It will need to fill a 14% drop in its income. It will need to find a minimum of Â£10bn a year. What is the UK's main bargaining chip? We could say its access for businesses but the EU doesn't seem to have a problem cutting them adrift. Its money!

Here's an idea; lets give the EU Â£39bn, for nothing in return. Lets give them access to the fishing grounds for nothing in return. Lets set up the UK's agriculture totally aligned to the EU, including pricing set by the EU, for nothing in return. OR the UK could say we will buy access to your trade markets at favourable rates, and we will sell you access to our fishing grounds and we will give you a favourable deal that gets pretty close to your CAP. You want money, we want a favourable deal............. and then there's May's BRINO that is not even good enough to call a disgrace.

The EU bluffed the UK with a pair of 2's, and the UK folded on their pair of 2's, giving the pot of gold to the EU.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Oh dear - BJ misses chance, provided by Sky News, to explain tomorrow how Gatt Article 24 will work post a _No Deal_ Brexit.
		
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Sorry - I might have missed BJ explain this to us following the televised debate last week - has he done that - if not can anyone explain how BJ thinks Gatt Article 24 will work for us after we leave with no deal on 31/10 - he said it would, and our future PM does not lie on such things.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Cameron, Clegg and Osbourne said no customs union and no single market numerous times BEFORE the referendum. Boris, Gove and Farage also spoke of of Leave meaning no CU and no SM. They spoke of negotiating a good deal with the EU. And what deal did May come back with?

I don't see why No Deal shouldn't be spoken about, and I think thats a good thing. If the EU think the UK won't leave without a deal they know that they can put a poor deal on the table and the UK will either accept or not leave.

What can the UK offer the EU for a decent deal. Money, access to the fishing grounds, equitable tariffs/no tariffs/equitable pricing on agri goods. And what did May agree to? You can have Â£39bn, you can have continued access to the fishing grounds, you can have everything you've asked for with regards to agri goods(inc. a monitoring organisation set up by the UK that reports to the EU on pricing and standards, and any deviation will see the UK in the European courts). And the UK got what? Sweet FA apart from a letter to talk about the future relationship - wow!

Just for a second, irrespective of the impact on trade either way, what will the EU most desperately need if the UK leaves the EU? It will need to fill a 14% drop in its income. It will need to find a minimum of Â£10bn a year. What is the UK's main bargaining chip? We could say its access for businesses but the EU doesn't seem to have a problem cutting them adrift. Its money!

Here's an idea; lets give the EU Â£39bn, for nothing in return. Lets give them access to the fishing grounds for nothing in return. Lets set up the UK's agriculture totally aligned to the EU, including pricing set by the EU, for nothing in return. OR the UK could say we will buy access to your trade markets at favourable rates, and we will sell you access to our fishing grounds and we will give you a favourable deal that gets pretty close to your CAP. You want money, we want a favourable deal............. and then there's May's BRINO that is not even good enough to call a disgrace.

The EU bluffed the UK with a pair of 2's, and the UK folded on their pair of 2's, giving the pot of gold to the EU.
		
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This is all good and all very well - but we will leave with No Deal because I hear that that is what 17.4m Leave voters asked for when voting Leave.  Yes really.  They say that what was said before the actual vote was just political posturing.  The vote was to Leave or Remain.  Nothing else.  Indeed I think I saw on Ch4 News this evening that a new poll indicates that 83% of Tory Party Members would have us leave now with no further negotiation whatsoever.

Jolly good.  BJ and No Deal 31/10 - bring it on.  It's _the Will of the People._


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## Hobbit (Jun 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is all good and all very well - but we will leave with No Deal because I hear that that is what 17.4m Leave voters asked for when voting Leave.  Yes really.  They say that what was said before the actual vote was just political posturing.  The vote was to Leave or Remain.  Nothing else.  Indeed I think I saw on Ch4 News this evening that a new poll indicates that 83% of Tory Party Members would have us leave now with no further negotiation whatsoever.

Jolly good.  BJ and No Deal 31/10 - bring it on.  It's _the Will of the People._

Click to expand...

You're confusing me - not hard I know.

You've said on numerous occasions recently that you accept that the UK will leave without a deal. And you've said you hope its Boris leading the charge - bring it on you say. So whats your problem? Why do you keep repeating it when you've accepted it?

Maybe its the thinly veiled irony which (doesn't) hides the fact you are vehemently opposed to it BUT you think this is the best way to continue your whining about it without the need to argue your case. If I've misinterpreted you I apologise but if I haven't, this version of whining is just as bad as the previous 3 years.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You're confusing me - not hard I know.

You've said on numerous occasions recently that you accept that the UK will leave without a deal. And you've said you hope its Boris leading the charge - bring it on you say. So whats your problem? Why do you keep repeating it when you've accepted it?

Maybe its the thinly veiled irony which (doesn't) hides the fact you are vehemently opposed to it BUT you think this is the best way to continue your whining about it without the need to argue your case. If I've misinterpreted you I apologise but if I haven't, this version of whining is just as bad as the previous 3 years.
		
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He's just being sarcastic and petty. Nothing anyone says to him will stop him droning on and on, its just white noise.


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## drdel (Jun 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			This is all good and all very well - but we will leave with No Deal because I hear that that is what 17.4m Leave voters asked for when voting Leave.  Yes really.  They say that what was said before the actual vote was just political posturing.  The vote was to Leave or Remain.  Nothing else.  Indeed I think I saw on Ch4 News this evening that a new poll indicates that 83% of Tory Party Members would have us leave now with no further negotiation whatsoever.

Jolly good.  BJ and No Deal 31/10 - bring it on.  It's _the Will of the People._

Click to expand...

Have you taken a recent look at the debacle going on in Brussels? 

If you wanted evidence of a more undemocratic process its all there. Oh and if you want a further reason why the UK should get out just look at the rapidly failing economic position that, were we to Remain,would suck cash from the UK even faster than Corbyn and McDonnell could manage.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2019)

BJ Alert - 'Our Hero' is on LBC's Nick Ferrari programme at 9:30am this morning taking listeners questions for half an hour (after which you can be sure leftie Remoaner James O'Brien will have some thoughts)  

Note that normally listeners of Ferrari's are largely of a strong Leave bent, and will go on a rant about anything vaguely leftish or to do with such as climate change - but I don't think Ferrari will give BJ an easy ride this morning.  The questions I have heard that will be asked are the ones that BJ needs to answer - which of course and I have no doubt that as our future PM he will to the fullness fullest.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2019)

drdel said:



			Have you taken a recent look at the debacle going on in Brussels?

If you wanted evidence of a more undemocratic process its all there. Oh and if you want a further reason why the UK should get out just look at the rapidly failing economic position that, were we to Remain,would suck cash from the UK even faster than Corbyn and McDonnell could manage.
		
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Of course - which is why I now would prefer UK to leave with no withdrawal agreement in place and under the leadership of BJ.  We cannot be tied in with the failing 'Brussels Bunch' in any way shape or form and I want BJ to lead us on this journey.  I do hope the will of the people is reflected by the selectorate comprising the Tory Party membership as _they _choose _our _next PM.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			BJ Alert - 'Our Hero' is on LBC's Nick Ferrari programme at 9:30am this morning taking listeners questions for half an hour (after which you can be sure leftie Remoaner James O'Brien will have some thoughts) 

Note that normally listeners of Ferrari's are largely of a strong Leave bent, and will go on a rant about anything vaguely leftish or to do with such as climate change - but I don't think Ferrari will give BJ an easy ride this morning.  The questions I have heard that will be asked are the ones that BJ needs to answer - which of course and I have no doubt that as our future PM he will to the fullness fullest.
		
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How did he get on? I'm in Denmark so haven't heard the interview and nothing on BBC news as far as I can see.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			How did he get on? I'm in Denmark so haven't heard the interview and nothing on BBC news as far as I can see.
		
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Well it depends upon whether you are on his side or the other side (though isome Leave voters are calling into JO'B expressing despair and horror at what they heard)

Not at all great on the 'all smelling of roses' garden photos.  In fact it seems the photos in today's papers may be old and so he and hos team are guilty of deliberately misleading the electorate and Tory Party Members.  BJ refused to answer questions posed about the photos "when were the photos taken?" 26 times. - but said he knew they were 'out there'

He disagrees vehemently with what Steve Bannon and Farage say on the amount of contact BJ has had with Bannon during this process.

His plan for Brexit?  Others on his side will explain how it will work - I was not 100% convinced as it relies upon the EU to relent and play ball with the UK all over the place.  But at least we now have a 'man with a plan' - so we have something to measure BeeJay the PeeEm against.

And stuff about London - about which seems very loud and proud.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 25, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			How did he get on? I'm in Denmark so haven't heard the interview and nothing on BBC news as far as I can see.
		
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A bland interview with no disasters. If he continues in the same vein he will win. He needs to be tripped up, to make gaffes to lose but yesterdays interview did not do either. You can pick up on details but details will not put the Tory die hards off.

You have to admire Hunt. He is putting in some serious miles, photo ops etc. He is doing it old school. Boris just needs to sit tight for a month though, it is his to lose.


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## Hobbit (Jun 25, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			A bland interview with no disasters. If he continues in the same vein he will win. He needs to be tripped up, to make gaffes to lose but yesterdays interview did not do either. You can pick up on details but details will not put the Tory die hards off.

You have to admire Hunt. He is putting in some serious miles, photo ops etc. He is doing it old school. Boris just needs to sit tight for a month though, it is his to lose.
		
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To me, a refusal to answer a straight question he's been tripped up. Its not a major gaffe but guilty by omission. Should his private life be fair game? No, but the question was "when was the photo taken?" The photo has been put out there by his team to deceive, and its failed miserably. He knows when the photo was taken, and is now part of that deception.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 25, 2019)

Hunt thinks that denying the Scottish First minister diplomatic services when she/he is abroad will play well outside Scotland.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2019)

Have to say that I was a bit worried that what some might interpret as evasion and lies coming from BJ this morning when interviewed by LBC's Nick Ferrari, might impact upon his support.  

However although a couple of alleged leave voters (probably O'Brien plants) soon phoned-in and claimed to be horrified by what they had heard - during the day it is clear that BJ supporting Leave voters are holding strong.  They have been making it clear that there is no need to address any of the issues from the interview as it is clear that the MSM (including Ferrari and the esteemed Eddie Mair) are colluding and coordinating an attack on BJ to undermine his leadership chances and hence to undermine leaving the EU on 31/10 with no deal agreed.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			To me, a refusal to answer a straight question he's been tripped up. Its not a major gaffe but guilty by omission. Should his private life be fair game? No, but the question was "when was the photo taken?" The photo has been put out there by his team to deceive, and its failed miserably. He knows when the photo was taken, and is now part of that deception.
		
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Sorry guys but I don't get this analysis of Johnson and the photo not being that important.  If he and his team put this out as evidence that all was now OK with BJ and his partner then they were deliberately lying to us and trying to deceive the electorate.  Surely that really matters.


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## Beezerk (Jun 25, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			To me, a refusal to answer a straight question he's been tripped up.
		
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I'm trying to think of the last time I heard any politician actually answer a straight question. I'm struggling here.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 26, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1143631903314120704


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 26, 2019)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1143631903314120704

Click to expand...

Well his probable predecessor thought walking through a hay field was pretty edgy.
So that is probably a step up.


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## bobmac (Jun 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry guys but I don't get this analysis of Johnson and the photo not being that important.  If he and his team put this out as evidence that all was now OK with BJ and his partner then they were deliberately lying to us and trying to deceive the electorate.  Surely that really matters.
		
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Maybe he just thinks his private life has got nothing to do with any journalists


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 26, 2019)

Heard a really good point on the radio this morning about a Tory MP who said that he despised Bojo but voted for him as they realised we are now in an era of cult like leaders with Corbyn and Farage.  And Bojo is the nearest the tories have to being that type of leader, hence he is the only one who would have a chance at an election against the cult of personality and following the other leaders have.

Must be said that whilst I find it thoroughly depressing, there is a lot to agree with there. Have been saying for a long time that people are exhibiting more cult like behavior now in their politics, where any type of rational questioning of some of the guff they all come out with seems increasingly to go out of the window.  And leaders are increasingly more bothered about playing to their cult like followers as opposed to actually bringing people together a bit more.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 26, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Heard a really good point on the radio this morning about a Tory MP who said that he despised Bojo but voted for him as they realised we are now in an era of cult like leaders with Corbyn and Farage.  And Bojo is the nearest the tories have to being that type of leader, hence he is the only one who would have a chance at an election against the cult of personality and following the other leaders have.

Must be said that whilst I find it thoroughly depressing, there is a lot to agree with there. Have been saying for a long time that people are exhibiting more cult like behavior now in their politics, where any type of rational questioning of some of the guff they all come out with seems increasingly to go out of the window.  And leaders are increasingly more bothered about playing to their cult like followers as opposed to actually bringing people together a bit more.
		
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It is a media era and we have media politicians. Social media is only going to exaggerate this. It is a bit grim really.


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## jp5 (Jun 26, 2019)

Could possibly have either the shortest serving PM in our history, or another X years of a Remain-PM (which would be hilarious if the Tory selectorate did elect Hunt after all the attempts to oust May).


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 26, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Could possibly have either the shortest serving PM in our history, or another X years of a Remain-PM (which would be hilarious if the Tory selectorate did elect Hunt after all the attempts to oust May).
		
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That's how I see it.
Next election the right wing vote will be split between the Tory/Brexit/UKIP votes allowing Labour and Lib Dem shoe ins in England and Wales.
Plaid/Greens/SNP also gaining seats.

As I said months ago Johnson will probably be the last UK Tory PM.
My daughter said that would not worry him as he wants to go down in history as a 'former UK PM'


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## 4LEX (Jun 26, 2019)

Johnson when he wins, and with a (mostly) united party behind him would still beat the lame duck Corbyn in a general election. The latter is simply not trusted by anyone of a sane mindset. It's like putting a primary school teacher in charge of a prison! Ain't gonna happen.

Johnson is awful though. His looks uneasy, lacking confidence and missing the charisma that made him popular in the first place. 

It's just a good job for the Tories that Labour have such a dire leader themselves. Given the shambles of the vote, the result and the following debacle, Labour should be a total and utter shoe in. The fact they're not says it all.


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## User62651 (Jun 26, 2019)

4LEX said:



			Johnson when he wins, and with a (mostly) united party behind him would still beat the lame duck Corbyn in a general election. The latter is simply not trusted by anyone of a sane mindset. It's like putting a primary school teacher in charge of a prison! Ain't gonna happen.

Johnson is awful though. His looks uneasy, lacking confidence and missing the charisma that made him popular in the first place.

It's just a good job for the Tories that Labour have such a dire leader themselves. Given the shambles of the vote, the result and the following debacle, Labour should be a total and utter shoe in. The fact they're not says it all.
		
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Good summation there.

Politics is highly unpredictable these days - 
If Johnson can get UK out of EU, even if a bit later say Christmas, then he is probably safe for two and a half years after that until GE will be due (June 2022 at latest), no matter what happens wrt adjustments of leaving EU.
For BJ to succeed he *HAS* to Brexit though. If he can't he's done for, ERG will turn on him. If he does that it gets rids of the Farage/BP issue and brings back leave voting Tory voters who probably outnumber remain Tory voters. He could call a GE then too and probably win it, get himself a working majority unreliant on DUP. Beyond that who knows, crystal ball time.
BJ will have a weak opposition to deal with until 2022 as long as Corbyn is in charge of Labour I think and I can't see that changing short term unless Corbyn took ill or something. If Corbyn lost 2 GE's (2017 and 22) he'd surely have to stand down.

To contradict what I said above sometimes I just wonder if Boris found himself, like May, hamstrung by parliament and unable to Brexit, would he ever consider revoking A50? It would cause ructions sure but he'd likely be safe until 2022. He's flip flopped a lot over the years, changes his views with the wind. Would the apparent principle in him for Brexit suddenly soften once he's Prime Minister? Which is more important to him - being PM or leaving EU? Being PM I'd say by a distance. Some thought his Brexit stance was simply to go up against Cameron for PM years ago, a vehicle for change. Has worked too.


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## jp5 (Jun 26, 2019)

Wouldn't be so quick to write Corbyn off, as useless as he is. Very feasible that BJ fails to deliver and the Brexit party split the Tory vote.

They do say never interfere while your opponent is making mistakes. Corbyn pushing that to the limit but who knows, the payoff for him could be a permanently split Tory party.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 26, 2019)

4LEX said:



			Johnson when he wins, and with a (mostly) united party behind him would still beat the lame duck Corbyn in a general election. The latter is simply not trusted by anyone of a sane mindset. It's like putting a primary school teacher in charge of a prison! Ain't gonna happen.

Johnson is awful though. His looks uneasy, lacking confidence and missing the charisma that made him popular in the first place.

It's just a good job for the Tories that Labour have such a dire leader themselves. Given the shambles of the vote, the result and the following debacle, Labour should be a total and utter shoe in. The fact they're not says it all.
		
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Corbyn has a -44 popularity rating in Scotland......â€¦..Even lower than Johnson
The UK votes to decide which of the two most unpopular leaders is the least unpopular.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 26, 2019)

bobmac said:



			Maybe he just thinks his private life has got nothing to do with any journalists
		
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Problem is, he adopts the same attitude with regard his 'public life'...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2019)

Interesting the Dr Liam Fox has called out BJ on his citing of WTO GATT Article 24 para 5b (see BJ does know detail) as a solution to trade and avoidance of tariffs with the EU immediately on leaving the EU on 31/10 with No Deal.  Fox calls him deluded or that he does not understand what it is about and how it works.  And so in telling the selectorate/electorate otherwise about how free trade tariffs will roll-over and work under that article, BJ is either being disingenuous or it is a deliberate deceit.  As the leader headline in _The Times_  said today - I quote:

_*If the Tory leadership contenders are serious about a no-deal Brexit, they need to be honest with the public about what this would mean for trade' *_

and the leader article itself concludes:

_*Too many senior Tories have for too long been too scared to tell the public the truth about no-deal, not least Mrs May herself.  They owe it to their party and to the country to ensure that if Britain is heading that way, it does so with its eyes open*_

Now I'd basically given up calling for this truth to be told; I was rather hoping Mrs May wold have grabbed the nettle long before now and done so, but she didn't and still hasn't.  I most certainly wouldn't have predicted that it would be Dr Liam Fox - arch-leaver and Secretary of State for International Trade and President of the Board of Trade - who would do so - but what should I expect in the insane political time we have been experiencing.

That this will most probably be ignored by most Leave voters as Project Fear and disinformation being spread by the BJ hating MSM - and that _The Times_ was a _Remain _newspaper in any case - of that I have little doubt - but they can't accuse Dr Liam Fox of actually being a Remoaner.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You're confusing me - not hard I know.

You've said on numerous occasions recently that you accept that the UK will leave without a deal. And you've said you hope its Boris leading the charge - bring it on you say. So whats your problem? Why do you keep repeating it when you've accepted it?

Maybe its the thinly veiled irony which (doesn't) hides the fact you are vehemently opposed to it BUT you think this is the best way to continue your whining about it without the need to argue your case. If I've misinterpreted you I apologise but if I haven't, this version of whining is just as bad as the previous 3 years.
		
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Yes I have said I now accept and, despite all my fears, that we end up leaving on a no-deal because I suspect that any 'deal' that is arrived at will be as a result of a quite significant extension, and would be portrayed as a sell-out to the EU - after all the voting paper said Remain or Leave with no mention of the word Deal (yes I know all that was said before but the view seems to be now that Leave voters voted for us to leave - to sort out a deal afterwards).

Leaving with a deal would (IMO) therefore have the effect of boosting the popularity of Farage and TBP, and whenever the next election comes along Farage and his crew could well have a significant voice in Westminster.  As it happens I cannot see us being able to sort out a new deal by 31/10 in any case and we will leave on 31/10 without a deal agreed.  And I hope that BJ is our PM at that point.  He can lead us to the promised land.  This outcome would be 'clean' (which is what Leave voters seem to want).

So Bri - I find myself caught between a rock and a hard place.  No-Deal or Farage.  I very reluctantly choose No Deal with BJ as PM.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2019)

bobmac said:



			Maybe he just thinks his private life has got nothing to do with any journalists
		
Click to expand...

Ferrari was very clear that the questioning was not about BJ's private life - or indeed anything to do with the photo other than when the photo was taken.  Why ask even that?  Because whoever provided the press with the photo made it clear that it was taken over the weekend following the bust-up - and so all was well - kill story.  But the photo clearly *wasn't *taken when they said it was.  It was a deliberate attempt to deceive the public and selectorate.  Why go to such lengths?  Why not simply say something like that he didn't know anything about the photo being provided and that it was a nice picture taken - say - 8 weeks ago.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Heard a really good point on the radio this morning about a Tory MP who said that he despised Bojo but voted for him as they realised we are now in an era of cult like leaders with Corbyn and Farage.  And Bojo is the nearest the tories have to being that type of leader, hence he is the only one who would have a chance at an election against the cult of personality and following the other leaders have.

Must be said that whilst I find it thoroughly depressing, there is a lot to agree with there. Have been saying for a long time that people are exhibiting more cult like behavior now in their politics, where any type of rational questioning of some of the guff they all come out with seems increasingly to go out of the window.  And leaders are increasingly more bothered about playing to their cult like followers as opposed to actually bringing people together a bit more.
		
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It is indeed desperately depressing hearing Leave and BJ supporters be in total denial over any issues or worries about BJ and what he proposes.   It is worse now that some have now started to talk about the MSM (all of it) being anti-Boris and therefore anti-Brexit - because obviously if you are anti-BJ you have to be pro-JH - and JH is a Remoaner at heart.  When you reach this point there is absolutely no point in pointing anything out and/or trying to 'move the needle'.  And that just adds to why I accept and (if we have to leave) we leave on No Deal with BJ as PM.


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## Hobbit (Jun 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Interesting the Dr Liam Fox has called out BJ on his citing of WTO GATT Article 24 para 5b (see BJ does know detail) as a solution to trade and avoidance of tariffs with the EU immediately on leaving the EU on 31/10 with No Deal.  Fox calls him deluded or that he does not understand what it is about and how it works.  And so in telling the selectorate/electorate otherwise about how free trade tariffs will roll-over and work under that article, BJ being either disingenuous or it is a deliberate deceit.  As the leader headline in _The Times_  said today - I quote:

_*If the Tory leadership contenders are serious about a no-deal Brexit, they need to be honest with the public about what this would mean for trade' *_

and the leader article itself concludes:

_*Too many senior Tories have for too long been too scared to tell the public the truth about no-deal, not least Mrs May herself.  They owe it to their party and to the country to ensure that if Britain is heading that way, it does so with its eyes open*_

Now I'd basically given up calling for this truth to be told; I was rather hoping Mrs May wold have grabbed the nettle long before now and done so, but she didn't and still hasn't.  I most certainly wouldn't have predicted that it would be Dr Liam Fox - arch-leaver and Secretary of State for International Trade and President of the Board of Trade - who would do so - but what should I expect in the insane political time we have been experiencing.

That this will most probably be ignored by most Leave voters as Project Fear and disinformation being spread by the BJ hating MSM - and that _The Times_ was a _Remain _newspaper in any case - of that I have little doubt - but they can't accuse Dr Liam Fox of actually being a Remoaner.
		
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Liam Fox is right. There is no automatic roll over onto Article 24 of WTO terms. However, and this is where WTO may conflict with the EU. Para 10 of GATT 24 says that only 2/3 of participating countries need to agree. My expectation would be that the EU would seek full 27 agreement before signing up to GATT 24.

GATT 24 is a very good halfway house when in the middle of trade negotiations, and also provides an option for a customs union. I'd like to think that if both sides are genuinely keen on an inclusive trade deal but the Oct 31st is a hard deadline, they will agree in principle to use GATT 24 until an agreement is reached.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Good summation there.

Politics is highly unpredictable these days -
If Johnson can get UK out of EU, even if a bit later say Christmas, then he is probably safe for two and a half years after that until GE will be due (June 2022 at latest), no matter what happens wrt adjustments of leaving EU.
For BJ to succeed he *HAS* to Brexit though. If he can't he's done for, ERG will turn on him. If he does that it gets rids of the Farage/BP issue and brings back leave voting Tory voters who probably outnumber remain Tory voters. He could call a GE then too and probably win it, get himself a working majority unreliant on DUP. Beyond that who knows, crystal ball time.
BJ will have a weak opposition to deal with until 2022 as long as Corbyn is in charge of Labour I think and I can't see that changing short term unless Corbyn took ill or something. If Corbyn lost 2 GE's (2017 and 22) he'd surely have to stand down.

To contradict what I said above sometimes I just wonder if Boris found himself, like May, hamstrung by parliament and unable to Brexit, would he ever consider revoking A50? It would cause ructions sure but he'd likely be safe until 2022. He's flip flopped a lot over the years, changes his views with the wind. Would the apparent principle in him for Brexit suddenly soften once he's Prime Minister? Which is more important to him - being PM or leaving EU? Being PM I'd say by a distance. Some thought his Brexit stance was simply to go up against Cameron for PM years ago, a vehicle for change. Has worked too.

Click to expand...

The horror of listening to many BJ supporting Leave voters is that they will not accept *any* delay past 31/10 - not a day- never mind two months - the sort of timescales I imagine JH could be thinking about.  Miss 31/10 and it's Farage and TBP in Westminster (and potentially then cheerio Scotland).


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Liam Fox is right. There is no automatic roll over onto Article 24 of WTO terms. However, and this is where WTO may conflict with the EU. Para 10 of GATT 24 says that only 2/3 of participating countries need to agree. My expectation would be that the EU would seek full 27 agreement before signing up to GATT 24.

GATT 24 is a very good halfway house when in the middle of trade negotiations, and also provides an option for a customs union. I'd like to think that if both sides are genuinely keen on an inclusive trade deal but the Oct 31st is a hard deadline, they will agree in principle to use GATT 24 until an agreement is reached.
		
Click to expand...

But Article 24 as I understand it is designed to enable two trading bodies (such as the UK and the EU) to transition from an existing trade deal to a new trade deal - and for Art24 to apply that deal needs to have been defined and pretty much agreed (and it does not cover the services which make up 80% of our trade); and timescales and a plan are in place to finalise the agreement and move from existing state to the new one.

If we leave on 31/10 with no-deal what is the trading agreement we and the EU are transitioning to?; what are our plans and timescales?  Further the EU have said that No-Deal means No-Deal means No Transition; and that they are not going to start discussions on any new trade deal until the Â£39bn is paid - and BJ says he'll withhold that payment until we have a trade deal agreed - Catch-22.  And let's not forget the EU/UK Irish border issue is also an EU trade deal pre-requisite.

Would the WTO* allow *the EU and the UK to invoke a WTO process that mandates pre-requisites that will not be in place between the UK and the EU.  Maybe.  But I wouldn't bet on it.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 26, 2019)

I listened to Jeremy Hunt on the Radio 2 at lunchtime and was pleasantly surprised how well he came across. I thought BJ was a 'shoe-in' to win but now I'm not so sure.


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## Hobbit (Jun 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But Article 24 as I understand it is designed to enable two trading bodies (such as the UK and the EU) to transition from an existing trade deal to a new trade deal - and for Art24 to apply that deal needs to have been defined and pretty much agreed (and it does not cover the services which make up 80% of our trade); and timescales and a plan are in place to finalise the agreement and move from existing state to the new one.

If we leave on 31/10 with no-deal what is the trading agreement we and the EU are transitioning to?; what are our plans and timescales?  Further the EU have said that No-Deal means No-Deal means No Transition; and that they are not going to start discussions on any new trade deal until the Â£39bn is paid - and BJ says he'll withhold that payment until we have a trade deal agreed - Catch-22.  And let's not forget the EU/UK Irish border issue is also an EU trade deal pre-requisite.

Would the WTO* allow *the EU and the UK to invoke a WTO process that mandates pre-requisites that will not be in place between the UK and the EU.  Maybe.  But I wouldn't bet on it.
		
Click to expand...

It is designed as you say but the 2 countries have to agree to it first.

The Â£39bn; the law lords have already ruled on that. It isn't a legally binding debt, it isn't even a debt. Article 50, nor any of the other Articles, list pre-existing commitments. Its semantics but in terms of what is written down, which is what the law lords based their ruling on, there is no debt. However, May acknowledged it in, what I feel, was good faith. I also don't feel the EU negotiated in good faith, so basically stuff 'em. I feel it should be paid in stages for the future agreement.

"Would the WTO allow...." GATT 24 is very wide ranging and does allow some picking and choosing. I guess it depends on what the prerequisites are and what an agreement in principle would look like - that's a piece of string question.

I don't necessarily fear No Deal as it will give the UK govt total flexibility to choose where and how much it subsidises businesses through the period it is trying to agree a Deal, and it also allows the UK govt to set its own (tit-4-tat) tariffs. The EU regs hamstrings the EU from setting subsidies. As I've said before, define the consequences of No Deal. So far, all we've heard is armageddon without any detail.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			It is designed as you say but the 2 countries have to agree to it first.

The Â£39bn; the law lords have already ruled on that. It isn't a legally binding debt, it isn't even a debt. Article 50, nor any of the other Articles, list pre-existing commitments. Its semantics but in terms of what is written down, which is what the law lords based their ruling on, there is no debt. However, May acknowledged it in, what I feel, was good faith. I also don't feel the EU negotiated in good faith, so basically stuff 'em. I feel it should be paid in stages for the future agreement.

"Would the WTO allow...." GATT 24 is very wide ranging and does allow some picking and choosing. I guess it depends on what the prerequisites are and what an agreement in principle would look like - that's a piece of string question.

I don't necessarily fear No Deal as it will give the UK govt total flexibility to choose where and how much it subsidises businesses through the period it is trying to agree a Deal, and it also allows the UK govt to set its own (tit-4-tat) tariffs. The EU regs hamstrings the EU from setting subsidies. As I've said before, *define the consequences of No Deal.* So far, all we've heard is armageddon without any detail.
		
Click to expand...

Which is what _The Times_ is telling the candidates that they need to do - clearly given his role Dr LF will have a good idea trade-wise.  His issue might be that in  the past he has rubbished all predictions around consequences of a No Deal - telling us of the glittering prizes in the brave new world we are heading to.  How about they also tell us some detail about the trade deals they expect to strike in yr1 post a 31/10 No Deal departure and then yrs 2,3,4 and 5 then 6-10.  We've had long enough to be doing the initial discussions with the various countries...

We know that the 100% certain #1 consequence will be the loss of all trade (and all other) deals and arrangements that we have in place with and through the EU - and it will take time to negotiate new ones and/or roll-over the existing ones (though I am not hearing many more roll-over deals being signed off since SK some weeks back).  Besides - no roll-over deal is going to see us *better *off viz-a-viz trade with that country - at best it'll be the same - and some countries might see a country of 65m as less attractive than a body of 550m and so want better terms for them.  But that's all known and nothing new and we are leaving to be better off - supposedly.

Setting tit-4-tat tariffs? - well as we are going to be operating under WTO rules these tariffs will have to apply to all countries trading with us.  And that might not be well received - what do BJ and JH and their Leave supporters tell us on such things.  We need to hear.

And I have no idea what happens to financial industry stuff such as financial product passporting.

As for Art24 - yes - the EU and the UK will have to agree.  Well if we refuse to pay the Â£39bn we have agreed that we owe - regardless of the legal position that we cite and resaon for not having to pay it - in signing off the WA May agreed with the EU the figure of Â£39bn - it's signed.  Refusing to pay is not going to encourage the EU into given us tariff free access to the EU market - but maybe our S&P credit rating will go up as a result of breaking a signed agreement - I dunno.

I'll also add that a YouGov poll reported today found that whilst support for leaving is at 57% against 43% Remain; support for a No Deal exit was at 28% (note that a Survation poll for the MoS found almost the same figures for L/R - but the other way around and the MoS did not report the figures at the weekend).  We are hurtling towards a _*No Deal*_ Brexit - the claimed 'Will of the People' - when in fact it is the will of a figure of the order of 28%.  Democratic Madness.


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## Foxholer (Jun 26, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			Good summation there.

Politics is highly unpredictable these days -
If Johnson can get UK out of EU, even if a bit later say Christmas, then he is probably safe for two and a half years after that until GE will be due (June 2022 at latest), no matter what happens wrt adjustments of leaving EU.
For BJ to succeed he *HAS* to Brexit though. If he can't he's done for, ERG will turn on him. If he does that it gets rids of the Farage/BP issue and brings back leave voting Tory voters who probably outnumber remain Tory voters. He could call a GE then too and probably win it, get himself a working majority unreliant on DUP. Beyond that who knows, crystal ball time.
BJ will have a weak opposition to deal with until 2022 as long as Corbyn is in charge of Labour I think and I can't see that changing short term unless Corbyn took ill or something. If Corbyn lost 2 GE's (2017 and 22) he'd surely have to stand down.

To contradict what I said above sometimes I just wonder if Boris found himself, like May, hamstrung by parliament and unable to Brexit, would he ever consider revoking A50? It would cause ructions sure but he'd likely be safe until 2022. He's flip flopped a lot over the years, changes his views with the wind. Would the apparent principle in him for Brexit suddenly soften once he's Prime Minister? Which is more important to him - being PM or leaving EU? Being PM I'd say by a distance. Some thought his Brexit stance was simply to go up against Cameron for PM years ago, a vehicle for change. Has worked too.

Click to expand...

I can't see Boris - who is almost certain to win  - extending Brexit! 

However, calling a GE is a *very* dangerous tactic! Recent elections show how 'The public' turned on existing 'major' parties because of the shambles that has been Brexit so far. But, as a body, it has a short memory of a shambles, once the 'goal' has been achieved!

The default A50 clause - if no agreement by the end of negotiation, then leave with no agreement - is likely to be Boris's 'saviour'! He just has to wait for all the fuss to die down!

The fundamental problem is that Parliamentarians are predominately Remainers - contrary to the Referendum result and in spite of the noisy ERG etc bunches! Factor in Whipping by Labour and it's unlikely ANY Brexit oriented vote would be approved!


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## Foxholer (Jun 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...Well if we refuse to pay the Â£39bn we have agreed that we owe - regardless of the legal position that we cite and resaon for not having to pay it - in signing off the WA May agreed with the EU the figure of Â£39bn - it's signed.  Refusing to pay is not going to encourage the EU into given us tariff free access to the EU market.
		
Click to expand...

May's signing of the agreement was conditional - on approval by Parliament. As Parliament has rejected the agreement, May's signing of it is irrelevant/null & void!

The Â£39bn would/will, no doubt, be included/a consideration in any subsequent agreement - WTO A24 or otherwise!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But Article 24 as I understand it is designed to enable two trading bodies (such as the UK and the EU) to transition from an existing trade deal to a new trade deal - and for Art24 to apply that deal needs to have been defined and pretty much agreed *(and it does not cover the services which make up 80% of our trade)*; and timescales and a plan are in place to finalise the agreement and move from existing state to the new one.
		
Click to expand...

Services do cover around 80% of our trade but 'Services' cover a vast range of trade that is nothing to do with finance and passporting. Financial Services are around 6% of our trade so lets get it into perspective.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Services do cover around 80% of our trade but 'Services' cover a vast range of trade that is nothing to do with finance and passporting. Financial Services are around 6% of our trade so lets get it into perspective.
		
Click to expand...

OK - but in any case as far as I am aware services aren't in scope of GATT Art24 5b - even if the WTO allowed us to trade with the EU under such a transitional arrangement with other pre-requisites not met.


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## Hobbit (Jun 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is what _The Times_ is telling the candidates that they need to do - clearly given his role Dr LF will have a good idea trade-wise.  His issue might be that in  the past he has rubbished all predictions around consequences of a No Deal - telling us of the glittering prizes in the brave new world we are heading to.  How about they also tell us some detail about the trade deals they expect to strike in yr1 post a 31/10 No Deal departure and then yrs 2,3,4 and 5 then 6-10.  We've had long enough to be doing the initial discussions with the various countries...

We know that the 100% certain #1 consequence will be the loss of all trade (and all other) deals and arrangements that we have in place with and through the EU - and it will take time to negotiate new ones and/or roll-over the existing ones (though I am not hearing many more roll-over deals being signed off since SK some weeks back).  Besides - no roll-over deal is going to see us *better *off viz-a-viz trade with that country - at best it'll be the same - and some countries might see a country of 65m as less attractive than a body of 550m and so want better terms for them.  But that's all known and nothing new and we are leaving to be better off - supposedly.

Setting tit-4-tat tariffs? - well as we are going to be operating under WTO rules these tariffs will have to apply to all countries trading with us.  And that might not be well received - what do BJ and JH and their Leave supporters tell us on such things.  We need to hear.

And I have no idea what happens to financial industry stuff such as financial product passporting.

As for Art24 - yes - the EU and the UK will have to agree.  Well if we refuse to pay the Â£39bn we have agreed that we owe - regardless of the legal position that we cite and resaon for not having to pay it - in signing off the WA May agreed with the EU the figure of Â£39bn - it's signed.  Refusing to pay is not going to encourage the EU into given us tariff free access to the EU market - but maybe our S&P credit rating will go up as a result of breaking a signed agreement - I dunno.

I'll also add that a YouGov poll reported today found that whilst support for leaving is at 57% against 43% Remain; support for a No Deal exit was at 28% (note that a Survation poll for the MoS found almost the same figures for L/R - but the other way around and the MoS did not report the figures at the weekend).  We are hurtling towards a _*No Deal*_ Brexit - the claimed 'Will of the People' - when in fact it is the will of a figure of the order of 28%.  Democratic Madness.
		
Click to expand...

You are confusing trade deals with business deals. Business deals/trading will continue, its the terms of the trade that will alter, and even then may well continue albeit at a higher cost.

Tit-4-tat applies to both sides, that's what tit-4-tat means. If the EU applies a tariff, the UK can apply a tariff..... tit-4-tat. And the EU is a member of WTO - there's even a German finance minister on the WTO board.

The deal that May brought back wasn't accepted, as you know, and that includes the Â£39bn. Its listed very early in the 585 pages. The EU can jump up and down as much as they like. Nowhere in the EU Articles is post a country leaving is there a financial commitment. Imagine a country leaving that was a net receiver. Would the EU continue sending money? Don't be silly.

As for roll over deals; why roll over a trade deal that currently includes tariffs and quotas? You need to stop applying today's EU trade rules the UK has to post-Leave. And as the UK hasn't left it can't yet offer different terms. Have you learnt anything in the last 3 years?

Have a look at business financial passporting. The EU already recognises that it wouldn't be wise to hinder investment coming from the UK.... anyway, have a look at it for the detail of what has already been agreed for business investment - note, already agreed. Personal banking financial passporting is an issue - god knows how my pension will get to Spain.


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## drdel (Jun 26, 2019)

How about making the comments stay focused on the next PM?


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## MegaSteve (Jun 27, 2019)

drdel said:



			How about making the comments stay focused on the next PM?
		
Click to expand...

Neither candidate has any intention of carrying out the deed...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2019)

drdel said:



			How about making the comments stay focused on the next PM?
		
Click to expand...

I raised the question in respect of WTO GATT Art24 para 5b because BJ did likewise in Next PM debate - when explaining how the UK would trade post a No Deal Brexit.  Though given BJs latest assessment that a No Deal Brexit is 1million to 1 against (as he stated yesterday evening during their Digital Hustings - whatever that is) - maybe we don't have to understand that any more.  Does BJ _really_ believe the odds against No Deal are that long?

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...f-no-deal-brexit-are-a-million-to-one-against


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 27, 2019)

Hunt nicking SNP small business tax rules now.
Mind you he probably thinks it's an original idea.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 28, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Hunt nicking SNP small business tax rules now.
Mind you he probably thinks it's an original idea.

Click to expand...

On Newsnight last night on 20th anniversary of Holyrood - The First Minister not too impressed by either candidate for leader of C&UP and PM (if asked for a preference it was like being given a choice between being run over by a lorry or a bus was how she put it); and wee Ruthie rather too strongly pro-Hunt (and anti BJ) than some BJ supporters might like.


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## Hobbit (Jun 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On Newsnight last night on 20th anniversary of Holyrood - The First Minister not too impressed by either candidate for leader of C&UP and PM (if asked for a preference it was like being given a choice between being run over by a lorry or a bus was how she put it); and wee Ruthie rather too strongly pro-Hunt (and anti BJ) than some BJ supporters might like.
		
Click to expand...

Are you surprised the leader of another party having a bit of a pop?


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 28, 2019)

No comment needed.....


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## SocketRocket (Jun 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			No comment needed.....

View attachment 27620

Click to expand...

ðŸ¤


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On Newsnight last night on 20th anniversary of Holyrood - The First Minister not too impressed by either candidate for leader of C&UP and PM (if asked for a preference it was like being given a choice between being run over by a lorry or a bus was how she put it); and wee Ruthie rather too strongly pro-Hunt (and anti BJ) than some BJ supporters might like.
		
Click to expand...

Have a mind that Hunt is now Truthless Ruthless's FOURTH choice as Tory and Non Unionist Party leader.
Shoe in for Johnson guaranteed now ...â€¦.Yea.


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## JamesR (Jun 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			No comment needed.....

View attachment 27620

Click to expand...


What a smeg head


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 28, 2019)

JamesR said:



			What a smeg head 

Click to expand...

Me or Jeremy Hunt?


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## JamesR (Jun 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			Me or Jeremy Hunt? 

Click to expand...

Old goalpost head ðŸ˜‰


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## MegaSteve (Jun 28, 2019)

With the changes, in the tory manifesto, currently being promised by the candidates...
Shouldn't a GE be called so we can all vote on them?...


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## richart (Jun 28, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			No comment needed.....

View attachment 27620

Click to expand...

Rimmer morphed into Ace Rimmer, the coolest dude in the Universe. 

Just saying.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 28, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			With the changes, in the tory manifesto, currently being promised by the candidates...
Shouldn't a GE be called so we can all vote on them?...
		
Click to expand...

Promises in manifestos dont matter anymore, they all promised to respect the outcome of the EU referendum and look how that's turned out.


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## ColchesterFC (Jun 28, 2019)

richart said:



			Rimmer morphed into Ace Rimmer, the coolest dude in the Universe.

Just saying. 

Click to expand...

If it's all the same with you, I won't be holding my breath.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 28, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			With the changes, in the tory manifesto, currently being promised by the candidates...
*Shouldn't a GE be called so we can all vote on them*?...
		
Click to expand...

Sounds too much like a bit of democracy to me, it will never catch on.


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## Old Skier (Jun 28, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Sounds too much like a bit of democracy to me,
		
Click to expand...

What, like the EU referendum.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 28, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Sounds too much like a *bit of democracy* to me, it will never catch on.
		
Click to expand...

Didnâ€™t think you was much of a fan of the concept anyway?

Remember for democracy to work the losing side have to accept the result.


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## Old Skier (Jun 28, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Didnâ€™t think you was much of a fan of the concept anyway?

Remember for democracy to work the losing side have to accept the result.
		
Click to expand...

New concept, it's called selective democracy.


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## Hobbit (Jun 28, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			With the changes, in the tory manifesto, currently being promised by the candidates...
Shouldn't a GE be called so we can all vote on them?...
		
Click to expand...

Good idea. And when its done we can hold another GE after the LibDem's leadership contest. Maybe then have a court case to argue for one when Corbyn got in too.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 28, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Good idea. And when its done we can hold another GE after the LibDem's leadership contest. Maybe then have a court case to argue for one when Corbyn got in too.
		
Click to expand...

But neither of those teams currently hold sway in Westminster... So irrelevant... 

Could you imagine the outcry from team public schoolboy if team corbyn (should it ever achieve being in charge) awarded a Â£1,000 bonus to all those on benefit...


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## Hobbit (Jun 29, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			But neither of those teams currently hold sway in Westminster... So irrelevant...

Could you imagine the outcry from team public schoolboy if team corbyn (should it ever achieve being in charge) awarded a Â£1,000 bonus to all those on benefit...
		
Click to expand...

Its very relevant. As you said in your first post on it, manifesto's are what some people consider when voting. Labour changed the leader, and then had another vote on him and they continually change their offering. LibDems potential leaders are both making promises and offerings. More people might vote for either if they have a different manifesto.

As for the Tories holding sway; that's just laughable. A minority govt holding sway... if they held sway the UK would have left the EU in March.

Think your rose red spectacles are blinding you a little. Your more interested in getting the Tories out, and are using the leadership election as an excuse to suggest a GE.


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## williamalex1 (Jun 29, 2019)

drdel said:



			How about making the comments stay focused on the next PM?
		
Click to expand...

Hobbit [ Brian ] for PM, the only person talking some reality and sense.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Its very relevant. As you said in your first post on it, manifesto's are what some people consider when voting. Labour changed the leader, and then had another vote on him and they continually change their offering. LibDems potential leaders are both making promises and offerings. More people might vote for either if they have a different manifesto.

As for the Tories holding sway; that's just laughable. A minority govt holding sway... if they held sway the UK would have left the EU in March.

Think your rose red spectacles are blinding you a little. Your more interested in getting the Tories out, and are using the leadership election as an excuse to suggest a GE.
		
Click to expand...

Well, here's hoping the DUP, irrespective of the size of the bribe, find supporting Boris impossible... 

Only reason the tories haven't removed us from the EU is they've found it difficult to put the will of the people ahead of the needs of their mates in big business...


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## drdel (Jun 29, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			But neither of those teams currently hold sway in Westminster... So irrelevant...

Could you imagine the outcry from team public schoolboy if team corbyn (should it ever achieve being in charge) awarded a Â£1,000 bonus to all those on benefit...
		
Click to expand...

You do realise that Mr Corbyn's parents paid his School fees!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 29, 2019)

Putin trolling May about the next UK leader being elected by a small section of the rich elite.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 29, 2019)

drdel said:



			You do realise that Mr Corbyn's parents paid his School fees!
		
Click to expand...

Hardly Eton or Harrow...
And, probably contributory to why he struggles with being in tune with Labour's natural voters... As Ms Clinton found out to her cost it's not just the party faithful that carry you over the line...


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## Hobbit (Jun 29, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Hardly Eton or Harrow...
And, probably contributory to why he struggles with being in tune with Labour's natural voters... As Ms Clinton found out to her cost it's not just the party faithful that carry you over the line...
		
Click to expand...

Oh that's ok then as they're minor schools. Amazing how often the goal posts move when its suits someone's argument. He's a hypocrite. Argues for states schools, after benefiting (badly) from private prep and a grammar... at least his minor education left him thick as pig's............... which he has used to major effect for Labour - remind me of his intervention in the recent reinstatement of Williamson, which was overturned yesterday. He's an antisemite through and through.

If you're arguing for a GE after every change to a party leader for a GE due to a change in the manifesto, I'd be tempted to support your argument, but didn't see anything in relation to Corbyn's two leadership votes, and the many changes in manifesto, and the upcoming Libdem leadership vote.

You're arguing for it because it suits your political persuasion.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Oh that's ok then as they're minor schools. Amazing how often the goal posts move when its suits someone's argument. He's a hypocrite. Argues for states schools, after benefiting (badly) from private prep and a grammar... at least his minor education left him thick as pig's............... which he has used to major effect for Labour - remind me of his intervention in the recent reinstatement of Williamson, which was overturned yesterday. He's an antisemite through and through.

If you're arguing for a GE after every change to a party leader for a GE due to a change in the manifesto, I'd be tempted to support your argument, but didn't see anything in relation to Corbyn's two leadership votes, and the many changes in manifesto, and the upcoming Libdem leadership vote.

You're arguing for it because it suits your political persuasion.
		
Click to expand...

Not quite sure why you believe I am a Corbynite... Yes, my political view is left leaning but I haven't voted Labour in a GE for many years... A bit pointless, in my view, whilst living in a tory stronghold...

Not asking for or expecting a GE for leadership changes... But a GE for when there is a change of leader to government, especially with the proposed/promised changes to manifesto mid term, should be on offer...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 29, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Not quite sure why you believe I am a Corbynite... Yes, my political view is left leaning but I haven't voted Labour in a GE for many years... A bit pointless, in my view, whilst living in a tory stronghold...

Not asking for or expecting a GE for leadership changes... But a GE for when there is a change of leader to government, especially with the proposed/promised changes to manifesto mid term, should be on offer...
		
Click to expand...

Isnt declaring a party is a remain party and anti Brexit after promising to respect the referendum outcome in their manifesto wrong.


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## Old Skier (Jun 29, 2019)

Why do people go on about manifesto promises, rarely kept, and forgotten about by the general public until the media dig them up at the next election.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 29, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Why do people go on about manifesto promises, rarely kept, and forgotten about by the general public until the media dig them up at the next election.
		
Click to expand...

Because in a lot of cases that's all we have to judge people and parties on when making a decision?


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## Old Skier (Jun 29, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Because in a lot of cases that's all we have to judge people and parties on when making a decision?
		
Click to expand...

Most make it on perceived decisions on what the others might do if they got in IMHO


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## MegaSteve (Jun 29, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Isnt declaring a party is a remain party and anti Brexit after promising to respect the referendum outcome in their manifesto wrong.
		
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But this is not about Labour... It's about the arrogance of current government that believe it's OK to make promises and only allow the chosen few to vote on them...  Something they've learnt from the buffoons in Brussels no doubt...

Which promise do you feel Boris most likely to honour... The one to his mates to cut their tax rate or the one to his constituents to lie down in front  of the bulldozers...


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 29, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Oh that's ok then as they're minor schools. Amazing how often the goal posts move when its suits someone's argument. *He's a hypocrite. Argues for states schools, after benefiting (badly) from private prep and a grammar*... at least his minor education left him thick as pig's............... which he has used to major effect for Labour - remind me of his intervention in the recent reinstatement of Williamson, which was overturned yesterday. He's an antisemite through and through.

If you're arguing for a GE after every change to a party leader for a GE due to a change in the manifesto, I'd be tempted to support your argument, but didn't see anything in relation to Corbyn's two leadership votes, and the many changes in manifesto, and the upcoming Libdem leadership vote.

You're arguing for it because it suits your political persuasion.
		
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It is possible to try and champion state schools and the principle of them despite going to a grammar and private school.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 29, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Most make it on perceived decisions on what the others might do if they got in IMHO
		
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Which may partly explain why we are in such a state. All we end up with is the politics of the perceived fear of the other party. It's hardly aspirational.


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## Old Skier (Jun 29, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			It is possible to try and champion state schools and the principle of them despite going to a grammar and private school.
		
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The Labour argument,  do as I say, not as I do.


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## Dellboy (Jun 30, 2019)

Having been to one hustings and watched 2 others live, take it from me , of what I have seen/ talked about and heard, Boris is heading for No.10, yes Hunt does stand a chance, seeing as heâ€™s the only other standing, but I canâ€™t see it.
I believe he can reunite the party ( Boris) yes you will still have a few dinosaurs not willing to listen or do right for the party or the UK, but thankfully I canâ€™t see the party voting for a May Clone which would banish them from power and forcing them to form a coalition with the Brexit patty.  
Labour will not stand a chance at a general election with Steptoe in charge and with the SNP on the slide, there is a feeling of hope once again in the party with Bojo in charge.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 30, 2019)

Dellboy said:



			Having been to one hustings and watched 2 others live, take it from me , of what I have seen/ talked about and heard, Boris is heading for No.10, yes Hunt does stand a chance, seeing as heâ€™s the only other standing, but I canâ€™t see it.
I believe he can reunite the party ( Boris) yes you will still have a few dinosaurs not willing to listen or* do right for the party or the UK*, but thankfully I canâ€™t see the party voting for a May Clone which would banish them from power and forcing them to form a coalition with the Brexit patty.
Labour will not stand a chance at a general election with Steptoe in charge and with the SNP on the slide, there is a feeling of hope once again in the party with Bojo in charge.
		
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Unfortunately those two things are often not the same thing. One could argue that the last 3 years have mostly consisted of the Tory party trying to do what it right for the Tory party, and not really what is right for the UK as we are hardly the posterboys for quality governance at the moment.  You could well have a leader that unites the tory party but is relatively toxic to non party diehards.  And if a main part of the strategy is to rely on the opposition leader being so rubbish then it's hardly aspirational stuff.  And you could apply that argument to Labour as well.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 30, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			The Labour argument,  do as I say, not as I do.
		
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How much say does a 5 or 11 year old have in the type of school they are attending? Are we supposed to say someone is a hypocrite as their parents sent them to public/grammar school yet they want the state school system to succeed later in life?  Is it is crime to for a parent to want the best for their child and thinking that the way to do that is to send them to a better school? Should the parents pause to think if that is the right call as several decades later their child may want to improve education for all pupils but they might get called out based on mostly silly political tribalism?  Both my parents went to grammar schools and then ended up as senior leaders in state schools, were they hypocrites?

As I said, silly reductive argument that if someone went to one type of school they can't champion other types.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 30, 2019)

Dellboy said:



			Having been to one hustings and watched 2 others live, take it from me , of what I have seen/ talked about and heard, Boris is heading for No.10, yes Hunt does stand a chance, seeing as heâ€™s the only other standing, but I canâ€™t see it.
I believe he can reunite the party ( Boris) yes you will still have a few dinosaurs not willing to listen or do right for the party or the UK, but thankfully I canâ€™t see the party voting for a May Clone which would banish them from power and forcing them to form a coalition with the Brexit patty. 
Labour will not stand a chance at a general election with Steptoe in charge and with the SNP on the slide, there is a feeling of hope once again in the party with Bojo in charge.
		
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SNP on the slide, I would like evidence of that please.
Unless you mean slide out of the UK. 
In which case your party will rule forever in England and Wales.


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## Old Skier (Jun 30, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			How much say does a 5 or 11 year old have in the type of school they are attending? Are we supposed to say someone is a hypocrite as their parents sent them to public/grammar school yet they want the state school system to succeed later in life?  Is it is crime to for a parent to want the best for their child and thinking that the way to do that is to send them to a better school? Should the parents pause to think if that is the right call as several decades later their child may want to improve education for all pupils but they might get called out based on mostly silly political tribalism?  Both my parents went to grammar schools and then ended up as senior leaders in state schools, were they hypocrites?

As I said, silly reductive argument that if someone went to one type of school they can't champion other types.
		
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I don't mind anyone backing state schools but the continued snipping at those who were fortunate enough to go private by those who attended private is the hypocritical part. Surely if Labour are so desperate to support the state school system they should stop sending their children to private schools. There have been a number of high profile Labour MPs who feel it appropriate to send their children down the private route.

Me and all my siblings were state school kids so I have no axe to grind either way.


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## Hobbit (Jun 30, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I don't mind anyone backing state schools but the continued snipping at those who were fortunate enough to go private by those who attended private is the hypocritical part. Surely if Labour are so desperate to support the state school system they should stop sending their children to private schools. There have been a number of high profile Labour MPs who feel it appropriate to send their children down the private route.

Me and all my siblings were state school kids so I have no axe to grind either way.
		
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I'd add to that Labour's continued attacks on Grammar schools, potentially, stops those who can't afford private schools but can afford the opportunity of getting their children into a Grammar is wholly wrong.

Championing state schools, absolutely right, but the Grammar is a state school. Corbyn looks to remove the opportunity of the Grammar for so many parents who, at best, can only aspire to a Grammar school education for their children. Seeking to remove the choice of the less wealthy whilst he himself and his children benefited from a private education he and his parents could afford is hypocritical. If he were including Grammar in his desire to see State schools improve, fine, but he isn't.

Maybe the reductive reasoning argument could also be applied to Labour's attack on Grammar schools...


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## MegaSteve (Jun 30, 2019)

Back on topic... Our next PM...

Here's hoping the next incumbent crashes the tory majority in the same manner he has managed since rocking up in Uxbridge... Never knowingly delivered on a promise... Well, not to the hoi polloi anyway...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 30, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Back on topic... Our next PM...

Here's hoping the next incumbent crashes the tory majority in the same manner he has managed since rocking up in Uxbridge... Never knowingly delivered on a promise... Well, not to the hoi polloi anyway...
		
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Sounds like you are looking forward to a Corbyn Fest.


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 30, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			I don't mind anyone backing state schools but the continued snipping at those who were fortunate enough to go private by those who attended private is the hypocritical part.* Surely if Labour are so desperate to support the state school system they should stop sending their children to private schools. There have been a number of high profile Labour MPs who feel it appropriate to send their children down the private route.*

Me and all my siblings were state school kids so I have no axe to grind either way.
		
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But in reality what will that achieve?  It is purely a PR thing, straight out of 'The Thick of It' series 3.  Education funding is not in a state because Michael Foot sends his kids to Eton.

Anyway, it seems Bojo will sort it out as he's promising to roll back education cuts made by his government.  https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...e/news/104924/boris-johnson-vows-reverse-tory .  If he does that, and it goes to all pupils, not just a small bribe to win votes by focusing the increased money in mostly Tory voting areas, then fair play and I'll doff my cap to him.  As to be honest I think will have a much more meaningful impact on the prosperity of this country than bloody brexit will. It would be so nice to hear just one Tory member saying _'I like what Boris is saying about education so I'll vote for him_' rather than seemingly basing the choice exclusively on his Brexit policy.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 30, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Sounds like you are looking forward to a Corbyn Fest.
		
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Despite my braying for a GE I am not expecting an early visit to the polls... By the time of the next scheduled visit I suspect Jezza to be no longer leader of the Labour party and for the electorate to have had enough of Boris...


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## spongebob59 (Jul 2, 2019)

'Forgetting we are a parliamentary democracy Remainers endlessly complain at the way the Tory party is choosing its leader... Iâ€™m not noticing many complain at the way leaders of the EU bureaucracy are(nâ€™t) being chosen behind closed doors in Brussels. '


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## Hobbit (Jul 2, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			'Forgetting we are a parliamentary democracy Remainers endlessly complain at the way the Tory party is choosing its leader... Iâ€™m not noticing many complain at the way leaders of the EU bureaucracy are(nâ€™t) being chosen behind closed doors in Brussels. '
		
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2 negatives don't make a positive.

How any party chooses its leader is surely up to its members. Why should a Labour supporter get to choose a Tory Leader, and vice versa? As for whether or not that means that leader is also the PM, what has that got to do with it? Who votes for a leader based purely on personality? And who votes for a govt based who the leader is?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 2, 2019)

I see the 400 members of the Tory Party in NI have had the I chance of weighing up who to vote for.


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## Hobbit (Jul 2, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see the 400 members of the Tory Party in NI have had the I chance of weighing up who to vote for.

Click to expand...

What sort of twisted logic are you dispensing Doom? Do you think every single member of the Tory party, all 160,000, will attend a husting? Do you think some of them will attend more than 1 husting?

Surely you can bit a bit more creative with your shallow musings?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 3, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			What sort of twisted logic are you dispensing Doom? Do you think every single member of the Tory party, all 160,000, will attend a husting? Do you think some of them will attend more than 1 husting?

Surely you can bit a bit more creative with your shallow musings?
		
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Just pointing out the surprising [to me] fact that the Tory party have as little as 400 committed members in that part of the UK.
That's probably less than your golf club membership.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 4, 2019)

Jeremy Hunt would like to see the return of fox hunting and will allow a free vote on it should he become MP . Go Boris (never thought I would say that. I'm going to wash myself down now, I feel dirty)


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## MegaSteve (Jul 4, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Jeremy Hunt would like to see the return of fox hunting and will allow a free vote on it should he become MP . Go Boris (never thought I would say that. I'm going to wash myself down now, I feel dirty)
		
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That will be a real vote winner at the next GE whilst teaching them treehuggers a lesson for interrupting a meeting for the chosen few...

Do like a bit of them and us does team blue...


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## bobmac (Jul 4, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Jeremy Hunt would like to see the return of fox hunting and will allow a free vote on it should he become MP . Go Boris (never thought I would say that. I'm going to wash myself down now, I feel dirty)
		
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Who, this guy?


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## drdel (Jul 4, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Jeremy Hunt would like to see the return of fox hunting and will allow a free vote on it should he become MP . Go Boris (never thought I would say that. I'm going to wash myself down now, I feel dirty)
		
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That's not accurate. He was asked loads of off-the-wall questions, one of which was his position on hunting. He merely said that it was way down in his priorities but if there was pressure too have another debate he would give the House a free vote. At no point did he say he'd like to see it return


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			That's not accurate. He was asked loads of off-the-wall questions, one of which was his position on hunting. He merely said that it was way down in his priorities but if there was pressure too have another debate he would give the House a free vote. At no point did he say he'd like to see it return
		
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Mr Hunt wrote in the Daily Telegraph: "[Hunting] is part of the countryside. And we have to recognise that in terms of the balance of the countryside. You know, it's part of our heritage."

He added that he would support a free vote among MPs when there was a majority in Parliament "that would be likely" to lift the ban in England.

The above tends to suggest he supports it.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 4, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



Mr Hunt wrote in the Daily Telegraph: "[Hunting] is part of the countryside. And we have to recognise that in terms of the balance of the countryside. You know, it's part of our heritage."

He added that he would support a free vote among MPs when there was a majority in Parliament "that would be likely" to lift the ban in England.

The above tends to suggest he supports it.
		
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It's just part of the game they are both playing where they are trying to appeal to the most ardent Daily Telegraph reading hard brexiting little Englander who will make them Tory leader and also the more moderate ones who they need on side to get any majority when the upcoming general election happens. Without definitely pledging anything concrete of substance as they know most of the stuff they are inferring won't actually happen.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's just part of the game they are both playing where they are trying to appeal to the *most ardent Daily Telegraph reading hard brexiting little Englander *who will make them Tory leader and also the more moderate ones who they need on side to get any majority when the upcoming general election happens. Without definitely pledging anything concrete of substance as they know most of the stuff they are inferring won't actually happen.
		
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The bold part suggests you are as pigeon holed as those you belittle.  Sad reflection of the desperate way so many are prepared to use divisive slander to devalue people with opposing views.  So sad.


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## Hobbit (Jul 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The bold part suggests you are as pigeon holed as those you belittle.  Sad reflection of the desperate way so many are prepared to use divisive slander to devalue people with opposing views.  So sad.
		
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A massive big like for that!

I accept his political persuasion, especially as mine isn't too far away from it, but his supercilious attitude to anyone who dares be a bit to the right is so very disappointing in one so obviously intelligent.

By all means disagree with someone's politics, but belittling them for it.... so sad


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 4, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			The bold part suggests you are as pigeon holed as those you belittle.  Sad reflection of the desperate way so many are prepared to use divisive slander to devalue people with opposing views.  So sad.
		
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My bad, they seem a sensible bunch to me who are by no means obsessed with brexit over anything else. 

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...conservative-members-would-see-party-destroye


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## SocketRocket (Jul 4, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			My bad, they seem a sensible bunch to me who are by no means obsessed with brexit over anything else.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politic...conservative-members-would-see-party-destroye

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You now change masks and don the one of sarcasm.  Neither do you any credit.

Regarding your attached article. I can see why people with strong democratic principals would put execution of a democratic national vote before party.  Why would such principals require them to be described as 'obsessive'  surely your sarcastic castigation of their view can be seen as obsessive.   

I suggest that your modus operandi is used more to promote your own ego than form a reasonable debate.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 4, 2019)

drdel said:



			That's not accurate. He was asked loads of off-the-wall questions, one of which was his position on hunting. He merely said that it was way down in his priorities but if there was pressure too have another debate he would give the House a free vote. At no point did he say he'd like to see it return
		
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well Hunt has to do something to try and get the Remain voting Tories in his Surrey-Hants borders constituency back on side.  It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that a Hunt PM taking the UK out of the EU without a withdrawal agreement could lose his seat at any subsequent GE.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			well Hunt has to do something to try and get the Remain voting Tories in his Surrey-Hants borders constituency back on side.  It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that a Hunt PM taking the UK out of the EU without a withdrawal agreement could lose his seat at any subsequent GE.
		
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There will be plenty of other safe seats for him when the wets have been deselected.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 5, 2019)

I see five ex met gaffers have slated theresa May for slashing police numbers. 
Meanwhile Jezza Hunt says. 
 "austerity did go too far on police numbers", adding there has since been "a rise in knife crime" and "we need to do something about that".

Now without stating the obvious. He would of got more kudos from me if he had said it whilst TM was actually cutting police numbers


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			There will be plenty of other safe seats for him when the wets have been deselected.
		
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aye - there is nothing like democracy in the UK is there...ye cannae beat it.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			aye - there is nothing like democracy in the UK is there...ye cannae beat it.
		
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What's not democratic about it. If you wish to stand as a prospective representative MP for a constituancy then you have to hold their confidence.  If the current incumbent doesnt do that they are free to select another.


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## gmc40 (Jul 5, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I see five ex met gaffers have slated theresa May for slashing police numbers.
Meanwhile Jezza Hunt says.
"austerity did go too far on police numbers", adding there has since been "a rise in knife crime" and "we need to do something about that".

Now without stating the obvious. He would of got more kudos from me if he had said it whilst TM was actually cutting police numbers
		
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I thought it was all Sadiq Khans  fault?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 5, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			I see five ex met gaffers have slated theresa May for slashing police numbers.
Meanwhile Jezza Hunt says.
"austerity did go too far on police numbers", adding there has since been "a rise in knife crime" and "we need to do something about that".

Now without stating the obvious. He would of got more kudos from me if he had said it whilst TM was actually cutting police numbers
		
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Tashy, the police numbers were being cut by Labour and continued through the ConDem pact. Wasn't all May's doing.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Tashy, the police numbers were being cut by Labour and continued through the ConDem pact. Wasn't all May's doing.
		
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No arguements from me SR, but the consequences of knife crime, people scared to go on streets etc have magnified under TM as Home sec and PM.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 5, 2019)

gmc40 said:



			I thought it was all Sadiq Khans  fault?
		
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In London yes ðŸ˜‰


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## Hobbit (Jul 5, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			In London yes ðŸ˜‰
		
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He admitted it in an LBC interview recently. As well as mayor, he is also the Police commissioner for London.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			aye - there is *nothing like democracy in the UK* is there...ye cannae beat it.
		
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Thanks to you and your ilk there *is* nothing like democracy in the U.K. at the moment...


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## SocketRocket (Jul 5, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			No arguements from me SR, but the consequences of knife crime, people scared to go on streets etc have magnified under TM as Home sec and PM.
		
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IMO the crime is nothing to do with Police numbers.  When a person pulls a knife and uses it you cannot expect the police to stop the stabbing, they can only find and charge the criminal. They seem to be good at this already.
They can stop and search suspects of carrying weapons but get critised by the Yogurt Huggers when they do that, the same people whinging that we need more Police on the streets.

This knife and gun crime IMO has deeper roots than Police numbers.  Most areas of the country dont have high knife/Gun crime and we have to ask ourselves why some do.  The answer from the normal suspects will be that it's due to Austerity, poverty, police numbers, the Torys, lack of youth clubs, no jobs and so on and so forth ad nauseum.   My opinion is that this type of crime has cultural roots and that's where we should be looking and considering what needs changing.  It's the Kings Suit of Clothes syndrome.


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## gmc40 (Jul 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			He admitted it in an LBC interview recently. As well as mayor, he is also the Police commissioner for London.
		
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He admitted what? That itâ€™s all his fault?


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## gmc40 (Jul 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			IMO the crime is nothing to do with Police numbers.  When a person pulls a knife and uses it you cannot expect the police to stop the stabbing, they can only find and charge the criminal. They seem to be good at this already.
They can stop and search suspects of carrying weapons but get critised by the Yogurt Huggers when they do that, the same people whinging that we need more Police on the streets.

This knife and gun crime IMO has deeper roots than Police numbers.  Most areas of the country dont have high knife/Gun crime and we have to ask ourselves why some do.  The answer from the normal suspects will be that it's due to Austerity, poverty, police numbers, the Torys, lack of youth clubs, no jobs and so on and so forth ad nauseum.   My opinion is that this type of crime has cultural roots and that's where we should be looking and considering what needs changing.  It's the Kings Suit of Clothes syndrome.
		
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What culture?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2019)

gmc40 said:



			What culture?
		
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He means the â€œimmigrantsâ€ prob the Muslim culture as well , everything that is wrong with the country is down to immigrants , those dirty foreigners increasing our population


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## Fade and Die (Jul 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He means the â€œimmigrantsâ€ prob the Muslim culture as well , everything that is wrong with the country is down to immigrants , those dirty foreigners increasing our population
		
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Strong stuff Phil!.... you had a drink?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 5, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Strong stuff Phil!.... you had a drink?
		
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Not at all - SR on many occasions has posted his distain of the level of people that arrived into the country and the â€œcultureâ€ they have brought and according to him and indeed others the lack of willingness to integrate into the society of the UK - whatever that is. 

Country bursting at the seems apparently and itâ€™s that population increase is the reason for all the services being stretched etc - of course it allows someone to ignore the cuts being made all over the place by the Tories


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## SocketRocket (Jul 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He means the â€œimmigrantsâ€ prob the Muslim culture as well , everything that is wrong with the country is down to immigrants , those dirty foreigners increasing our population
		
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Muslims? Who mentioned them, I'm not aware they are responsible other than the ones who carried out the autrosities recently.
By culture  I mean these feral gangs who are killing each other and anyone else that gets in their way.  Also the drug culture that these people are tied into.  Many of them appear to be of ethnic origin but I would not label them as 'Muslim'

You really have a big chip on your shoulder.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 5, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Not at all - SR on many occasions has posted his distain of the level of people that arrived into the country and the â€œcultureâ€ they have brought and according to him and indeed others the lack of willingness to integrate into the society of the UK - whatever that is.

Country bursting at the seems apparently and itâ€™s that population increase is the reason for all the services being stretched etc - of course it allows someone to ignore the cuts being made all over the place by the Tories
		
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Most of that is correct, I do believe multi cultureism is a complete failure and has caused division and a lack of cohesion in society , I also believe we have allowed too much immigration over a short timeframe such that services are stretched but your accusations are just plain over the top.
Regarding the Tory Cuts. We are still borrowing to fill the gap between what we take on tax and what we spend.  What do you suggest the government do?  Maybe borrow more and then more so your children are left to pay it off.


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## Hobbit (Jul 5, 2019)

In London, 2/3rds of knife crime is carried out by blacks. In the rest of the Uk, 62% of knife crime is carried out by whites. There's a whole host of stats surrounding the issue, but the most reliable is on the Gov's own website.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Tashy, the police numbers were being cut by Labour and continued through the ConDem pact. Wasn't all May's doing.
		
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Classic team tory when the wicked finger of failure comes a pointing it'll always be something Labour did or didn't do about two decades back...


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## SocketRocket (Jul 5, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Classic team tory when the wicked finger of failure comes a pointing it'll always be something Labour did or didn't do about two decades back...
		
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Classic labour denial and distortion of information. I said police cuts had started under Labour and continued with Conservatives and LibDems.  Do you deny this is correct?


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## SocketRocket (Jul 5, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			In London, 2/3rds of knife crime is carried out by blacks. In the rest of the Uk, 62% of knife crime is carried out by whites. There's a whole host of stats surrounding the issue, but the most reliable is on the Gov's own website.







Click to expand...

This does support my previous comments. I suggested most knife crime is carried out in certain areas and communities.  They do seem to be more prevalent where gang and drug culture are rife.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Classic labour denial and distortion of information. I said police cuts had started under Labour.  Do you deny this is correct?
		
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Everything starts sometime but the speed, depth and zeal applied by team tory, since returning to power, to applying cuts has been ott...


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## gmc40 (Jul 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			This does support my previous comments. I suggested most knife crime is carried out in certain areas and communities.  They do seem to be more prevalent where gang and drug culture are rife.
		
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So let me get this right. 

You have suggested knife crime is more prevalent in communities where drugs and gangs are present?

Genius!

Move aside Columbo, Sherlock Holmes and Miss Marple, Socket Rocket has cracked the case!ðŸ˜€


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## MegaSteve (Jul 5, 2019)

Malcolm Rifkind has just delivered a withering condemnation of Boris on the Beeb... Still a mere journalist!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 5, 2019)

gmc40 said:



			So let me get this right.

You have suggested knife crime is more prevalent in communities where drugs and gangs are present?

Genius!

Move aside Columbo, Sherlock Holmes and Miss Marple, Socket Rocket has cracked the case!ðŸ˜€
		
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I was asked in what cultures I referred to so clarified that.

You have added nothing to the discussion . Do you have any views why, or what can or should be done about it. Or!  as I suspect you are just trolling.


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## gmc40 (Jul 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I was asked in what cultures I referred to so clarified that.

You have added nothing to the discussion . Do you have any views why, or what can or should be done about it. Or!  as I suspect you are just trolling.
		
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Thereâ€™s nothing to add to â€œthe discussionâ€. You suggested â€œcultural rootsâ€ were a factor in the rise in knife crime. When challenged to explain what you meant, you stated the obvious.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 5, 2019)

gmc40 said:



			Thereâ€™s nothing to add to â€œthe discussionâ€. You suggested â€œcultural rootsâ€ were a factor in the rise in knife crime. When challenged to explain what you meant, you stated the obvious.
		
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If it was obvious then why was I asked ðŸ™„


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## gmc40 (Jul 5, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			If it was obvious then why was I asked ðŸ™„
		
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Missing the point again. 

Stating the obvious in that drugs and gangs contribute to knife crime. Not stating the obvious answer to the question put to you. 

You arenâ€™t thick, just obtuse and bigoted. You blame foreigners for all our ills when the evidence suggests otherwise. 

Not much else to say really.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 5, 2019)

gmc40 said:



			Missing the point again.

Stating the obvious in that drugs and gangs contribute to knife crime. Not stating the obvious answer to the question put to you.

You arenâ€™t thick, just obtuse and bigoted. You blame foreigners for all our ills when the evidence suggests otherwise.

Not much else to say really.
		
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Obviously not.  You come across as another who rather than discuss an issue jump into name calling if the opinion differs from yours; a bit pathetic and juvenile really.  Anyhow, if you've nothing better to add best you dont say anymore.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jul 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			This does support my previous comments. I suggested most knife crime is carried out in certain areas and communities.  They do seem to be more prevalent where gang and drug culture are rife.
		
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Do you not think that the inter gang violence that we are seeing is heavily due to the leafy suburbs demand for powder to suck up their noses and the like?
Its easy to blame a section of society for the effects, but look deeper at the cause.


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## Hobbit (Jul 6, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Do you not think that the inter gang violence that we are seeing is heavily due to the leafy suburbs demand for powder to suck up their noses and the like?
Its easy to blame a section of society for the effects, but look deeper at the cause.
		
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Victims of drug dealers are to blame? Maybe alcoholics should grass up the pub landlord...


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## Tashyboy (Jul 6, 2019)

MegaSteve said:



			Classic team tory when the wicked finger of failure comes a pointing it'll always be something Labour did or didn't do about two decades back...
		
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The thing is though Steve and I could not be bothered to argue the case, if people/ forumers read what the five ex met guys said. Knife crime was just one example of how police cuts have affected policing of the streets. They also stated, People do not feel safe walking on there streets, people do not have any confidence in the police solving crimes. The five guys went into great depth on how falling police numbers is affecting the safety of our society. Labour may well of started cuts, But TM and the Torys have had long enough to reverse the Labour trend. Instead of continuing with more cuts. That aside, more police may help with the fight against knife crime, but that alone won't solve the problem. But more police may well stop anti social behaviour, and it may well make people feel safe going out at night


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## Bunkermagnet (Jul 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Victims of drug dealers are to blame? Maybe alcoholics should grass up the pub landlord...
		
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Depends who you view as the victims. The young impressionable people sucked into that world and used as the mules, or the rich (white probably) person wanting a bit of sniff at the weekend?
Or does that thought line clash with Tory members history?


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## Hobbit (Jul 6, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			Depends who you view as the victims. The young impressionable people sucked into that world and used as the mules, or the rich (white probably) person wanting a bit of sniff at the weekend?
Or does that thought line clash with Tory members history?
		
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99.99% of people know the difference between right and wrong, and learn that from a very early age. Dealing, and getting involved in distribution, is clearly wrong/illegal. Using is just plain stupid.

But here's a question back at you; is it the Tories who promote legalisation or the lefty/liberals?

The problem is way too complex for simple generalisations you appear to promote. If a backstreet kid wants an iPad etc, yet comes from a poor background, where can he get the money? What's the easiest way to make decent money when you've skipped school, and there's few opportunities around?

Its a materialistic society.

Having created the environment for drugs to prosper, taking away one of the major checks to its promotion, i.e. policing, what do people expect to happen?


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## drdel (Jul 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			In London, 2/3rds of knife crime is carried out by blacks. In the rest of the Uk, 62% of knife crime is carried out by whites. There's a whole host of stats surrounding the issue, but the most reliable is on the Gov's own website.







Click to expand...

I think before jumping on SR its wise to consider objectively the propensity to commit a knife offence ( if you believe 'carrying' is a predictor).  Begs the question what percent of the 3 population groups of under 25 years old (about 22%, 15mill), about 82% of UK population are 'white' approx. 12mill  so non-white and not stated will be about 3million. 

So just for arguments sake; using the data you provided - say 1600 out of 12mill, and say 1500 out of 3mill. meaning the probability for carrying a knife is 0.013% and 0.05% !! 

White has a decreased rate; among the two other classifications is increasing.


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## Hobbit (Jul 6, 2019)

drdel said:



			I think before jumping on SR its wise to consider objectively the propensity to commit a knife offence ( if you believe 'carrying' is a predictor).  Begs the question what percent of the 3 population groups of under 25 years old (about 22%, 15mill), about 82% of UK population are 'white' approx. 12mill  so non-white and not stated will be about 3million.

So just for arguments sake; using the data you provided - say 1600 out of 12mill, and say 1500 out of 3mill. meaning the probability for carrying a knife is 0.013% and 0.05% !!

White has a decreased rate; among the two other classifications is increasing.
		
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Thereâ€™s an article on the Beeb news page from March with 10 different graphs looking at the issue from many different directions.

One thing is clear. Poverty is the driver. How many rich kids, irrespective of colour, are involved in knife crime?

5th richest country in the world, but the distribution of that wealth is skewed.


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## drdel (Jul 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Thereâ€™s an article on the Beeb news page from March with 10 different graphs looking at the issue from many different directions.

One thing is clear. Poverty is the driver. How many rich kids, irrespective of colour, are involved in knife crime?

5th richest country in the world, but the distribution of that wealth is skewed.
		
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Yup tis a complex issue. Unfortunately its one where sensitivities can get in the way of the truth being discussed. There is an argument about the imbalance of wealth but that is not totally ethnically delineated - there's also the fact that in some countries the 'value of human' life is somewhat less (for all sorts of reasons) than in western countries so the 'moral' base is different. Until we face up to the underlying issues of multiculturalism we'll always be playing catchup.


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## Hobbit (Jul 6, 2019)

drdel said:



			Yup tis a complex issue. Unfortunately its one where sensitivities can get in the way of the truth being discussed. There is an argument about the imbalance of wealth but that is not totally ethnically delineated - there's also the fact that in some countries the 'value of human' life is somewhat less (for all sorts of reasons) than in western countries so the 'moral' base is different. Until we face up to the underlying issues of multiculturalism we'll always be playing catchup.
		
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What is multiculturalism? Many cultures fear it, whatever it is, thinking it is the dilution of their culture. Some people don't want it, being happy with their lot - I don't think there's anything wrong with choice, and choosing not to if that's what someone wants.

All people need to do is respect each other's culture.... going well off track now...


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## SocketRocket (Jul 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			What is multiculturalism? Many cultures fear it, whatever it is, thinking it is the dilution of their culture. Some people don't want it, being happy with their lot - I don't think there's anything wrong with choice, and choosing not to if that's what someone wants.

All people need to do is respect each other's culture.... going well off track now...
		
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To me multicultureism is encouraging people to live in different cultures and communities.  This IMO discourages people of different ethnicities to integrate.  There is nothing wrong with people having their own customs, religion etc but it's not healthy when they want to live in separate communities and do not apply the freedoms and values of their adopting country.

Regarding serious knife crime and by this I dont mean carrying a knife but using it against someone, its difficult to look through data to support ones concerns but just about every time I see a murder on the news it appears to be perpetrated by a black person. I am not convinced that these people have no choice in their lifestyles either, many many people are born into families with low incomes but do not turn to crime as a way to earn a living.


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## Wolf (Jul 6, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			To me multicultureism is encouraging people to live in different cultures and communities.  This IMO discourages people of different ethnicities to integrate.  There is nothing wrong with people having their own customs, religion etc but it's not healthy when they want to live in separate communities and do not apply the freedoms and values of their adopting country.

Regarding serious knife crime and by this I dont mean carrying a knife but using it against someone, its difficult to look through data to support ones concerns but just about every time I see a murder on the news it appears to be perpetrated by a black person. I am not convinced that these people have no choice in their lifestyles either, many many people are born into families with low incomes but do not turn to crime as a way to earn a living.
		
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I generally stay out of political threads but a lot of what you say here seems so contradictory.  Unless I'm misreading it so feel free to correct me or elaborate to make it more understandable.

Your opinion of multiculturalism is where its encouraged to live in communities with different cultures, yet the next sentence you state that discourages people.. That in itself makes little sense unless by encouraged you mean forced therefore people are effectively discouraged through lack of choice. Yet that can't be as everyone has choice in where they live to a certain extent and if they choose not to integrate based on race, religion or other factors who are we to comment on their choices as long as its done respectfully.

Also your point about their adopted country. Just because someone is a different culture, race or religion doesn't mean this their adoptive country, You are aware a lot in fact the majority were born here. So again are you actually meaning to refer to immigrants that don't just do as we do, if so have you yourself ever experienced what it's like to be moved from your comfort of your own religion, surroundings and I don't mean living in another western country, I mean something the polar opposite e.g a country where you don't have the freedoms here or different cultures, you can't just arrive somewhere new and expect immediate integration especially if people are so versed in their own ways, integration for some migrants could take a whole generation. Plus when you think about as a nation are Brits any better, go on any holiday nobody tries to speak the language instead we expect them to speak English and if they don't do we try to speak theirs generally not most just shout louder and slower expecting them to understand.

As for the knife crime part you're clearly not looking through the data but in fact disregarding it completely, you say all the murders you see are by black people yet the figures showed higher percentage of knife crime is committed by white people, proven by something posted here alone in this thread. Most of the news articles on TV however focus on London where the ethnic levels are higher so of course that's disproportionate to the country as a whole, so if your watching the news yes you may see more black crime but when only one area is a focus that's what you'll see.

Maybe I'm missing what your trying to say, but the little I've read there seems to be a lot of finger pointing at "non UK white folk" as I say maybe I'm missing your points but I'm not sure I am.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 7, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I generally stay out of political threads but a lot of what you say here seems so contradictory.  Unless I'm misreading it so feel free to correct me or elaborate to make it more understandable.

Your opinion of multiculturalism is where its encouraged to live in communities with different cultures, yet the next sentence you state that discourages people.. That in itself makes little sense unless by encouraged you mean forced therefore people are effectively discouraged through lack of choice. Yet that can't be as everyone has choice in where they live to a certain extent and if they choose not to integrate based on race, religion or other factors who are we to comment on their choices as long as its done respectfully.

Also your point about their adopted country. Just because someone is a different culture, race or religion doesn't mean this their adoptive country, You are aware a lot in fact the majority were born here. So again are you actually meaning to refer to immigrants that don't just do as we do, if so have you yourself ever experienced what it's like to be moved from your comfort of your own religion, surroundings and I don't mean living in another western country, I mean something the polar opposite e.g a country where you don't have the freedoms here or different cultures, you can't just arrive somewhere new and expect immediate integration especially if people are so versed in their own ways, integration for some migrants could take a whole generation. Plus when you think about as a nation are Brits any better, go on any holiday nobody tries to speak the language instead we expect them to speak English and if they don't do we try to speak theirs generally not most just shout louder and slower expecting them to understand.

As for the knife crime part you're clearly not looking through the data but in fact disregarding it completely, you say all the murders you see are by black people yet the figures showed higher percentage of knife crime is committed by white people, proven by something posted here alone in this thread. Most of the news articles on TV however focus on London where the ethnic levels are higher so of course that's disproportionate to the country as a whole, so if your watching the news yes you may see more black crime but when only one area is a focus that's what you'll see.

Maybe I'm missing what your trying to say, but the little I've read there seems to be a lot of finger pointing at "non UK white folk" as I say maybe I'm missing your points but I'm not sure I am.
		
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Have a good read of this article, especially the bit about statistics....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_Kingdom

Best bit though is the line "the black community (...) need to be mobilised in denunciation of this gang culture that is killing innocent young black kids. *But we won't stop this by pretending it isn't young black kids doing it*."


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## Wolf (Jul 7, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Have a good read of this article, especially the bit about statistics....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_Kingdom

Best bit though is the line "the black community (...) need to be mobilised in denunciation of this gang culture that is killing innocent young black kids. *But we won't stop this by pretending it isn't young black kids doing it*."
		
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Nobody is pretending young black kids aren't doing it I never said  they weren't, especially in the urban areas of London but I explained that reasoning. Merely pointing out not to pigeon hole  as its rife across the UK amongst all races.

Also the stats shown in the Wikipedia link are from 2009/2010 hardly upto date enough to make an accurate judgment on. Unless that is your point also that if you look in right places you'll always find stats to support whichever side you choose.


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## Fade and Die (Jul 7, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Nobody is pretending young black kids aren't doing it I never said  they weren't, especially in the urban areas of London but I explained that reasoning. Merely pointing out not to pigeon hole  as its rife across the UK amongst all races.

Also the stats shown in the Wikipedia link are from 2009/2010 hardly upto date enough to make an accurate judgment on. Unless that is your point also that if you look in right places you'll always find stats to support whichever side you choose.
		
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Donâ€™t disagree with you re stats but to point out they are a few years old is just splitting hairs, do you think since 2010 things have improved for the black community or do you think they will still be over represented in the stop and search, arrests and prison population column?
 SR seemed to be taking a lot of flak for stating a very obvious fact that knife crime is a predominantly black issue... I agree with him 100%. Yes my view is based on where I live...the south east were most weekends there are 2 or 3 stories of stabbings and they are almost without fail within the black community. 

I disagree with SR re policing though, I lay the whole blame at Teresa Mays feet, her cuts virtually wiped out Community Policing, an absolutely vital tool in breaking down the barriers on estates and typically very â€œanti policeâ€ districts. 15 years ago you would see a couple of PCSOâ€™s walking through the estates maybe three times a day, often black or Asian   Officers stopping and chatting with the groups of lads hanging around the bottom of staircases, getting to know them, breaking down barriers. Now the only interaction with Police on the estates is if a squad car drives through once a week, or there is a raid on a flat, it creates more barriers and more distrust. 

Another quote from the article...In 2003 Lee Jasper, a race advisor to the London mayor, said drugs and gun crime were the "biggest threat to the black community since its arrival here".
Yes the statement is 16 years old but itâ€™s more relevant today than ever.


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## Wolf (Jul 7, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Donâ€™t disagree with you re stats but to point out they are a few years old is just splitting hairs, do you think since 2010 things have improved for the black community or do you think they will still be over represented in the stop and search, arrests and prison population column?
SR seemed to be taking a lot of flak for stating a very obvious fact that knife crime is a predominantly black issue... I agree with him 100%. Yes my view is based on where I live...the south east were most weekends there are 2 or 3 stories of stabbings and they are almost without fail within the black community.

I disagree with SR re policing though, I lay the whole blame at Teresa Mays feet, her cuts virtually wiped out Community Policing, an absolutely vital tool in breaking down the barriers on estates and typically very â€œanti policeâ€ districts. 15 years ago you would see a couple of PCSOâ€™s walking through the estates maybe three times a day, often black or Asian   Officers stopping and chatting with the groups of lads hanging around the bottom of staircases, getting to know them, breaking down barriers. Now the only interaction with Police on the estates is if a squad car drives through once a week, or there is a raid on a flat, it creates more barriers and more distrust.

Another quote from the article...In 2003 Lee Jasper, a race advisor to the London mayor, said drugs and gun crime were the "biggest threat to the black community since its arrival here".
Yes the statement is 16 years old but itâ€™s more relevant today than ever.
		
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I'm not actually disagreeing with you. I don't think it is splitting hairs when the data quoted is nearly a decade old. I've also said regarding London there will be a higher rate of ethnic crime especially when it's knife crime.. I'm from the South East as well and a rather not nice part yet there the crime was predominantly young white males. Though your area is obviously different and has effect on your feelings and judgement towards it which is fully understandable. Yet nationwide stats show as a whole its an issue for all races not just black people, that was my point with SR post, he's taking regional ethnic issues and applying to the whole of the UK and that's where the numbers differ.

My issue with SR posts wasn't just at the race crime, its the whole immigration thing assuming people don't integrate based on race or culture because they are not from here yet most of these people are. That's why I even said if I'm missing something to him feel free to correct me. I stand by my points I said in response to him.

But perhaps this topic is for another thread rather than about the next PM as its a little off piste


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## Tashyboy (Jul 7, 2019)

Reading a lot of the last couple of pages,it seems everybody is saying differant things but predominantly the same thing. As much as we can talk about the  break down in community values. For me it is nothing to the breakdown in political values. We have the worst government in history ( for quite some time). Equally we have the worst opposition in History. crime is rife, as is unsolved crime. As stated we have the 5th richest economy in the world, yet we have food banks. Multi billion company's pay sod all tax. Until both Labour and the Torys get a massive kick up the Arse at the general election, nothing will change and the Brexit Party, SNP, greens etc will for better or worse start the changes.


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## Hobbit (Jul 7, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I'm not actually disagreeing with you. I don't think it is splitting hairs when the data quoted is nearly a decade old. I've also said regarding London there will be a higher rate of ethnic crime especially when it's knife crime.. I'm from the South East as well and a rather not nice part yet there the crime was predominantly young white males. Though your area is obviously different and has effect on your feelings and judgement towards it which is fully understandable. Yet nationwide stats show as a whole its an issue for all races not just black people, that was my point with SR post, he's taking regional ethnic issues and applying to the whole of the UK and that's where the numbers differ.

My issue with SR posts wasn't just at the race crime, its the whole immigration thing assuming people don't integrate based on race or culture because they are not from here yet most of these people are. That's why I even said if I'm missing something to him feel free to correct me. I stand by my points I said in response to him.

But perhaps this topic is for another thread rather than about the next PM as its a little off piste
		
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I agree, the old data is almost irrelevant. Circumstances in communities have changed dramatically in the last 10 years. Support for communities and the resources the Police have has almost fallen off a cliff. If the data was relevant the growth in crime would be a straight line graph, maybe rising in line with immigration as people from countries with different values have arrived.

The graph indicates a critical mass (explosion) point. But looking for only one driver for that growth is too simplistic. There's a whole raft of reasons for the increase. However, there is one resource that feeds all the drivers, and that is money. Money for education, money for Policing, money to grow businesses that will provide jobs.

Blaming immigration for some of the rise is as foolish as not blaming immigration for some of the rise. If have a look at foreign prison population in the UK, what they're in for and where they are from you will see clear indicators that there are a few countries whose immigrants have very different values. Stopping immigration would be wrong, even from the few countries whose individuals have a propensity to violence. Controlled immigration is the answer to more people coming in but isn't the answer to the problem that is already here.

Until communities and the Police are properly supported, irrespective of colour, crime won't go away. And, as Tashy says, until Parliament gets its act together with actions rather than trying to buy votes with empty promises, there will be no change.


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## Wolf (Jul 7, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I agree, the old data is almost irrelevant. Circumstances in communities have changed dramatically in the last 10 years. Support for communities and the resources the Police have has almost fallen off a cliff. If the data was relevant the growth in crime would be a straight line graph, maybe rising in line with immigration as people from countries with different values have arrived.

The graph indicates a critical mass (explosion) point. But looking for only one driver for that growth is too simplistic. There's a whole raft of reasons for the increase. However, there is one resource that feeds all the drivers, and that is money. Money for education, money for Policing, money to grow businesses that will provide jobs.

Blaming immigration for some of the rise is as foolish as not blaming immigration for some of the rise. If have a look at foreign prison population in the UK, what they're in for and where they are from you will see clear indicators that there are a few countries whose immigrants have very different values. Stopping immigration would be wrong, even from the few countries whose individuals have a propensity to violence. Controlled immigration is the answer to more people coming in but isn't the answer to the problem that is already here.

Until communities and the Police are properly supported, irrespective of colour, crime won't go away. And, as Tashy says, until Parliament gets its act together with actions rather than trying to buy votes with empty promises, there will be no change.
		
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Absolutely spot on


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## Fade and Die (Jul 7, 2019)




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## SocketRocket (Jul 7, 2019)

Wolf said:



			I generally stay out of political threads but a lot of what you say here seems so contradictory.  Unless I'm misreading it so feel free to correct me or elaborate to make it more understandable.

Your opinion of multiculturalism is where its encouraged to live in communities with different cultures, yet the next sentence you state that discourages people.. That in itself makes little sense unless by encouraged you mean forced therefore people are effectively discouraged through lack of choice. Yet that can't be as everyone has choice in where they live to a certain extent and if they choose not to integrate based on race, religion or other factors who are we to comment on their choices as long as its done respectfully.

Also your point about their adopted country. Just because someone is a different culture, race or religion doesn't mean this their adoptive country, You are aware a lot in fact the majority were born here. So again are you actually meaning to refer to immigrants that don't just do as we do, if so have you yourself ever experienced what it's like to be moved from your comfort of your own religion, surroundings and I don't mean living in another western country, I mean something the polar opposite e.g a country where you don't have the freedoms here or different cultures, you can't just arrive somewhere new and expect immediate integration especially if people are so versed in their own ways, integration for some migrants could take a whole generation. Plus when you think about as a nation are Brits any better, go on any holiday nobody tries to speak the language instead we expect them to speak English and if they don't do we try to speak theirs generally not most just shout louder and slower expecting them to understand.

As for the knife crime part you're clearly not looking through the data but in fact disregarding it completely, you say all the murders you see are by black people yet the figures showed higher percentage of knife crime is committed by white people, proven by something posted here alone in this thread. Most of the news articles on TV however focus on London where the ethnic levels are higher so of course that's disproportionate to the country as a whole, so if your watching the news yes you may see more black crime but when only one area is a focus that's what you'll see.

Maybe I'm missing what your trying to say, but the little I've read there seems to be a lot of finger pointing at "non UK white folk" as I say maybe I'm missing your points but I'm not sure I am.
		
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Sorry for not getting back to you quicker, I am very busy at the moment and dont have time for a protracted reply.   I can only say at this point that when referring to Multiculturalism I refer to the effect over time and not with current immigrants, IMO it creates division rather than integration and a great deal of crime relating to drugs, Knives and Guns emanate from these societies. I am not suggesting we stop immigration but rather control it better and work towards better integration of cultures rather than the way multiculturalism actively promotes separatism.


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## JamesR (Jul 7, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



View attachment 27679

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Borisâ€™ tour bus?


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## Fade and Die (Jul 8, 2019)

I know another 4 murders over a weekend in Londonistan isnâ€™t really news anymore, but the shooting in Leyton made me laugh.(not actually btw) The bloke is lying on the pavement bleeding to death and thereâ€™s a Police Station on the other side of the road. Unfortunately it was closed.ðŸ˜®


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## Tashyboy (Jul 8, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I know another 4 murders over a weekend in Londonistan isnâ€™t really news anymore, but the shooting in Leyton made me laugh.(not actually btw) The bloke is lying on the pavement bleeding to death and thereâ€™s a Police Station on the other side of the road. Unfortunately it was closed.ðŸ˜®
		
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Now an empty police station. Thats slack. In manchester they grow cannabis in there empty police stations.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 8, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			I know another 4 murders over a weekend in Londonistan isnâ€™t really news anymore, but the shooting in Leyton made me laugh.(not actually btw) The bloke is lying on the pavement bleeding to death and thereâ€™s a Police Station on the other side of the road. Unfortunately it was closed.ðŸ˜®
		
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Probably better if it was a Doctors Surgery with someone in it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2019)

Looking forward to BJ vs JH tomorrow evening.  Should make for an interesting contrast and clash of styles - if not anything much different in the message that BJ will admit to.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 8, 2019)

This could be posted in the Trump thread, Brexit thread or PM thread. But once more under TM leadership ( and I use that term as loosely as diahorrea). We are the laughing stock of world politics. The latest leaks in th USA from the British ambassador are diabolical. Trump should of kicked him out of the USA. The POTUS has laid into TM and others and rightly so.

Thoughts on TMs legacy. Give me sodding strength.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 8, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			This could be posted in the Trump thread, Brexit thread or PM thread. But once more under TM leadership ( and I use that term as loosely as diahorrea). We are the laughing stock of world politics. The latest leaks in th USA from the British ambassador are diabolical. Trump should of kicked him out of the USA. The POTUS has laid into TM and others and rightly so.

Thoughts on TMs legacy. Give me sodding strength.
		
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So an ambassador gives his honest opinion of the Trump administration and its one that many would agree with.

Trump reacting because he canâ€™t handle home truths - this is only a week after the idiot was talking about airports during the war of independence 

Ambassador has done nothing wrong


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## Fade and Die (Jul 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So an ambassador gives his honest opinion of the Trump administration and its one that many would agree with.

Trump reacting because he canâ€™t handle home truths - this is only a week after the idiot was talking about airports during the war of independence

Ambassador has done nothing wrong
		
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Agreed but the leak is very embarrassing for the country. Hope whoever did it is found and prosecuted if possible.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 8, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Agreed but the leak is very embarrassing for the country. Hope whoever did it is found and prosecuted if possible.
		
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It would not surprise me if it was something to do with Trumps people anyway - nothing better to make people forget about what he said last week than to make another country politicians look worse


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It would not surprise me if it was something to do with Trumps people anyway - nothing better to make people forget about what he said last week than to make another country politicians look worse
		
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I like the Trump conspiracy theory - or maybe just the flip-side of that - the current Ambassador is just not Brexity and pro-Trump enough for the BeeJay Crew.  Get current incumbent out of the way and get in someone who will do the bidding of the future UK PM.  Just a thought based upon nothing at all except wondering - why the leak?

Anyway - always good to hear Farage having a go at the Ambassador - and rather than supporting the UK Diplomat instead sucking up to Trump.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 9, 2019)

Briefly on London crime/stabbings... As an MP for a London constituency you'd think the Minister for Police would be pitching his thoughts into the debate... But, the silence remains deafening...

In fact, without googling, I suspect the vast majority couldn't name him...


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## MegaSteve (Jul 9, 2019)

Back on topic... I read party members currently under investigation for racism have been boasting, on line, of their support for Boris...


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## jp5 (Jul 9, 2019)

Trump interfering again in our politics. Now if I remember correctly some people got very angry when Obama did so, I'll just go check if they feel the same about Trump's intervention.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 9, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Trump interfering again in our politics. Now if I remember correctly some people got very angry when Obama did so, I'll just go check if they feel the same about Trump's intervention.
		
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Or is it Tit for Tit. Aka Tit for TatðŸ‘


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 9, 2019)

jp5 said:



			Trump interfering again in our politics. Now if I remember correctly some people got very angry when Obama did so, I'll just go check if they feel the same about Trump's intervention.
		
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Does anyone think Trump backing you is worth anything? Obama had respect around the world, he had gravitas. Trump is an embarrassment, his tweets over the last couple of days are the responses of a child, a spoilt child.

Obama should not have got involved, it is an unwritten rule, so I would not defend what he did.


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## Hobbit (Jul 9, 2019)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Does anyone think Trump backing you is worth anything? Obama had respect around the world, he had gravitas. Trump is an embarrassment, his tweets over the last couple of days are the responses of a child, a spoilt child.

Obama should not have got involved, it is an unwritten rule, so I would not defend what he did.
		
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.

I don't have a problem with what the ambassador said but once it become public knowledge there's no hiding place for the ambassador. He has to be recalled, and he's done no wrong, because I fail to see how he will be accepted in Washington with any good grace.

As for Trump's tweets; I detest the man, and find it hard to believe he got elected. As for still being in office when you look at how he's behaved - stunned. However, I find some of his comments over this quite tame. I'm surprised the US hasn't already told the UK to replace the ambassador.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 9, 2019)

What's this to do with the next PM?


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## Lord Tyrion (Jul 9, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			.

I don't have a problem with what the ambassador said but once it become public knowledge there's no hiding place for the ambassador. He has to be recalled, and he's done no wrong, because I fail to see how he will be accepted in Washington with any good grace.

As for Trump's tweets; I detest the man, and find it hard to believe he got elected. As for still being in office when you look at how he's behaved - stunned. However, I find some of his comments over this quite tame. I'm surprised the US hasn't already told the UK to replace the ambassador.
		
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I agree, the ambassador has to be recalled and posted elsewhere. Not his fault but that is the reality.



SocketRocket said:



			What's this to do with the next PM?
		
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They will have to sort this out. Easy for Boris as they both get on, more awkward for Hunt but he seems a relatively safe pair of hands so I am not worried about that. I don't think you would choose a PM due to how they get on with the US though, not when the President is Trump.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 9, 2019)

what a moron :

The wacky Ambassador that the U.K. foisted upon the United States is not someone we are thrilled with, a very stupid guy. He should speak to his country, and Prime Minister May, about their failed Brexit negotiation, and not be upset with my criticism of how badly it was... 
...handled. I told 
@theresa_may
 how to do that deal, but she went her own foolish way-was unable to get it done. A disaster! I donâ€™t know the Ambassador but have been told he is a pompous fool. Tell him the USA now has the best Economy & Military  anywhere in the World, by far... 
....and they are both only getting bigger, better and stronger.....Thank you, Mr. President!


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## Mudball (Jul 9, 2019)

Watching Bofoon Boris go against the Hunt...  you can see why i dont want Boris even more.  He may have the charisma but he rambles on incoherently.  In some ways i hope Hunt does not win, that way he can keep powder dry for when Boris makes a meal of Brexit.


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## drdel (Jul 10, 2019)

Hunt says he'd keep the ambassador in the USA, even after the guy used stupid language which he was daft enough to put in writing. 

Just because Trump is daft there's no need for our diplomats to act the same.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			Hunt says he'd keep the ambassador in the USA, even after the guy used stupid language which he was daft enough to put in writing.

Just because Trump is daft there's no need for our diplomats to act the same.
		
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"Hunt says he'd keep the ambassador in the USA, even after the guy basically did his job as an ambassador and used quite mild language, stating what everyone knows anyway.

Just because Trump is daft, there's no need for us to be as stupid and use Trumps particualar brand of moronic intelligence to characterise someone"



Corrected that for you.


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## drdel (Jul 10, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			"Hunt says he'd keep the ambassador in the USA, even after the guy basically did his job as an ambassador and used quite mild language, stating what everyone knows anyway.

Just because Trump is daft, there's no need for us to be as stupid and use Trumps particualar brand of moronic intelligence to characterise someone"

Corrected that for you.
		
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I said what I wanted to say thanks; your correction is  surplus  and unwanted.

Hunt is trying to defend the indefensible.
The ambassador did not accomplish any purpose in his foolish briefing and managed to risk the UK's reputation in diplomatic circles and by associating himself in a supportive way Hunt has demonstrated his own poor judgement.


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## Kellfire (Jul 10, 2019)

Nailed it, m8.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 10, 2019)

Say what you want about said diplomat, but time after time, this government suffers " leaks" from nigh on all departments. Couple with the fact this government has had more cabinet resignations in TM short tenure, than any other government in history. You have a government that has no respect whatsoever from the general public and it seems it's civil servants. 
At this moment in time the opposition should be smashing TMs Tory party. But there not. We all know why..


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## MegaSteve (Jul 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			Hunt says he'd keep the ambassador in the USA, even after the guy used stupid language which he was daft enough to put in writing. 

Just because Trump is daft there's no need for our diplomats to act the same.
		
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Will you be OK when Gavin Williamson gets a position in Boris's cabinet?


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## spongebob59 (Jul 10, 2019)

drdel said:



			I said what I wanted to say thanks; your correction is  surplus  and unwanted.

Hunt is trying to defend the indefensible.
The ambassador did not accomplish any purpose in his foolish briefing and managed to risk the UK's reputation in diplomatic circles and by associating himself in a supportive way Hunt has demonstrated his own poor judgement.
		
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He's resigned.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 10, 2019)

So it seems he has fell upon his sword/pen. 

Quite right to.


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## patricks148 (Jul 10, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			So it seems he has fell upon his sword/pen.

Quite right to.
		
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why he was absolutely  right in his assessment of Trump and his administration.

who leaked the private memo should be the one getting it


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## Tashyboy (Jul 10, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			why he was absolutely  right in his assessment of Trump and his administration.

who leaked the private memo should be the one getting it
		
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And i am sure that the person who leaked it will be hung drawn and quartered. However he did what was the â€œ honourable thing to doâ€.  Honourable is not a word that is used very often during this governments time. 
His resignation makes things a little easier for the next PM and also helps un our â€œ special relationship â€œ with the USA.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 10, 2019)

Send Sadiq Khan out to replace him ðŸ˜‚


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## patricks148 (Jul 10, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			And i am sure that the person who leaked it will be hung drawn and quartered. However he did what was the â€œ honourable thing to doâ€.  Honourable is not a word that is used very often during this governments time.
His resignation makes things a little easier for the next PM and also helps un our â€œ special relationship â€œ with the USA.
		
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he isn't a member of the Gov though he is a civil servant and as for the special relationship, as with Trumps election Motto "America First" what ever they do would be in the Us interest not ours. 

there was a similar leak a few years ago by the US embassy who, said things very similar to this, that ministers were incompetent and some quite personal comments, i don't remember many calls or a big deal being made of that that they should sack the US ambassador or the sanctity of the "special Relationship"


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2019)

UK Ambassador resigns - and Political Editor of Daily Mail - Jason Groves - and other sources state that he resigned after he saw Boris Johnson fail to provide full support for him last night.  Well done BeeJay - best clean yer tongue - and then ask someone to get the ex-ambassador out from under the bus you threw him last night.

And so BeeJay is most probably going to be our PM - leading us out of the EU without an agreement.  God help us...!

But never mind - it's what the Tories want and what the people voted for.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			UK Ambassador resigns - and Political Editor of Daily Mail - Jason Groves - and other sources state that he resigned after he saw Boris Johnson fail to provide full support for him last night.  Well done BeeJay - best clean yer tongue - and then ask someone to get the ex-ambassador out from under the bus you threw him last night.

And so BeeJay is most probably going to be our PM - leading us out of the EU without an agreement.  God help us...!

But never mind - it's what the Tories want and what the people voted for.
		
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So it was Boris's fault ðŸ™„


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## MegaSteve (Jul 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			UK Ambassador resigns - and Political Editor of Daily Mail - Jason Groves - and other sources state that he resigned after he saw Boris Johnson fail to provide full support for him last night.  Well done BeeJay - best clean yer tongue - and then ask someone to get the ex-ambassador out from under the bus you threw him last night.

And so BeeJay is most probably going to be our PM - leading us out of the EU without an agreement.  God help us...!

But never mind - it's what the Tories want and what the people voted for.
		
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Well, at least he's only having to resign not languish in jail for five years...


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## Wolf (Jul 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			UK Ambassador resigns - and Political Editor of Daily Mail - Jason Groves - and other sources state that he resigned after he saw Boris Johnson fail to provide full support for him last night.  Well done BeeJay - best clean yer tongue - and then ask someone to get the ex-ambassador out from under the bus you threw him last night.

And so BeeJay is most probably going to be our PM - leading us out of the EU without an agreement.  God help us...!

But never mind - it's what the Tories want and what the people voted for.
		
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Fail to see how the ambassadors issue is Boris fault. 

The ambassador threw himself under the bus with his actions. Whether people agree with or not there was no other outcome possible


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Fail to see how the ambassadors issue is Boris fault.

The ambassador threw himself under the bus with his actions. Whether people agree with or not there was no other outcome possible
		
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Sorry - the Ambassador was simply doing his job - presenting his consolidated understanding of how Trump is viewed by others.

In most workplaces - if due to no fault of his own a member of staff is in some difficulties with a customer - a decent and responsible manager will back up his member of staff and will pick up the issue and look to resolve it with the customer.  He will not shirk his managerial responsibilities and equivocate; throw his staffer under a bus; and make his staffer's position untenable and force his resignation.  These are the circumstances where staffers take companies to court for constructive dismissal.

In just two weeks time BeeJay would have been his boss - the UK Ambassador could reasonably have expected some support - if not a vote of confidence - from him.  But no.  BeeJay was clearly more interested in not upsetting his buddy Trump - in fact BeeJay looked somewhat uncomfortable when he was blustering and hand-waving his prevaricative answer to the question.  He knew what he was doing and what might the outcome be.


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## ger147 (Jul 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - the Ambassador was simply doing his job - presenting his consolidated understanding of how Trump is viewed by others.

In most workplaces - if due to no fault of his own a member of staff is in some difficulties with a customer - a decent and responsible manager will back up his member of staff and will pick up the issue and look to resolve it with the customer.  He will not shirk his managerial responsibilities and equivocate; throw his staffer under a bus; and make his staffer's position untenable and force his resignation.  These are the circumstances where staffers take companies to court for constructive dismissal.

In just two weeks time BeeJay would have been his boss - the UK Ambassador could reasonably have expected some support - if not a vote of confidence - from him.  But no.  BeeJay was clearly more interested in not upsetting his buddy Trump - in fact BeeJay looked somewhat uncomfortable when he was blustering and hand-waving his prevaricative answer to the question.  He knew what he was doing and what might the outcome be.
		
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Boris is NOT his boss, TM and her cabinet are and they gave him their 100% support.

No idea how you can try and pin his resignation on a Tory back bencher...


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## SocketRocket (Jul 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - the Ambassador was simply doing his job - presenting his consolidated understanding of how Trump is viewed by others.

In most workplaces - if due to no fault of his own a member of staff is in some difficulties with a customer - a decent and responsible manager will back up his member of staff and will pick up the issue and look to resolve it with the customer.  He will not shirk his managerial responsibilities and equivocate; throw his staffer under a bus; and make his staffer's position untenable and force his resignation.  These are the circumstances where staffers take companies to court for constructive dismissal.

In just two weeks time BeeJay would have been his boss - the UK Ambassador could reasonably have expected some support - if not a vote of confidence - from him.  But no.  BeeJay was clearly more interested in not upsetting his buddy Trump - in fact BeeJay looked somewhat uncomfortable when he was blustering and hand-waving his prevaricative answer to the question.  He knew what he was doing and what might the outcome be.
		
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He's (can you please stop this silly BeeJay, its juvenile) not the Prime Minister so not able to do anything as a back bencher.

Imagine a different scenario in business. You have a customer who is responsible for a large amount of your business, without this business you would need to lose half of your employees. Your sales Manager sends an email around criticising the CEO of the company and the way he manages the board of Directors, the email ends up at customers inbox by mistake.  The CEO demands that he never deals with your Sales Manager again otherwise he will take his orders to your competitor who has been working hard to get this contract from you.  You try to pacify him but he will not budge.  Honestly, what would you do?


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## Wolf (Jul 10, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - the Ambassador was simply doing his job - presenting his consolidated understanding of how Trump is viewed by others.

In most workplaces - if due to no fault of his own a member of staff is in some difficulties with a customer - a decent and responsible manager will back up his member of staff and will pick up the issue and look to resolve it with the customer.  He will not shirk his managerial responsibilities and equivocate; throw his staffer under a bus; and make his staffer's position untenable and force his resignation.  These are the circumstances where staffers take companies to court for constructive dismissal.

In just two weeks time BeeJay would have been his boss - the UK Ambassador could reasonably have expected some support - if not a vote of confidence - from him.  But no.  BeeJay was clearly more interested in not upsetting his buddy Trump - in fact BeeJay looked somewhat uncomfortable when he was blustering and hand-waving his prevaricative answer to the question.  He knew what he was doing and what might the outcome be.
		
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Sorry but you're living in lala land if you think Boris has anything to do with this or is failing him in anyway.. 

Boris is not his boss, Teresa May is and she backed him. Trump whether you like it or not is the leader of one of our biggest Allies. So if Boris whilst trying to be elected and show he has support of a major world leading figure whether you like him or not then in fact Boris is doing his job correctly. It is I'll repeat in this countries interest to have America onside whether you like their leader or not. POTUS has publicly said the US will not deal with Sir Kim. So what do you expect would happen, do you propose that Boris just backs him and says up yours America. Considering the mess brexit has us in that would be a wonderful thing to do wouldn't it ðŸ™„

The fact you keep belittling the man calling him BeeJay and now trying to blame him for someone else actions, for not backing him when he is NOT his boss is laughable and says more about your bias in not liking the man than it does of any political nous. 

Then comparing that to a customer service issue is even more laughable. Its in no way comparable, the trust of a nation we need onside compared to upsetting a customer is leagues apart. 

I'm sorry SILH but you've had a complete brain fart with that one.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 10, 2019)

Anyone care to offer up an excuse for Boris and his failings with regard Nazanin Ratcliffe? Or can that be swept under the carpet also?

In the words of a 'proper tory' (Malcom Rifkind) Boris was given a chance to shine as FS... And, he didn't...


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 10, 2019)

A very good read, written by a tory no less. 

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...eading-disaster?amp&__twitter_impression=true


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 10, 2019)

Must admit I'm a bit torn on who is correct in their assessment of the ambassadors character.  On one side you have Trump and Piers Morgan and in the other the head of the British diplomatic service. Mmm tough one.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 10, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			A very good read, written by a tory no less.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...eading-disaster?amp&__twitter_impression=true

Click to expand...

He makes a few good points regarding the way people have seen their country socially engineered by the Liberal Elete without consideration of its effects on the most vunerable.  

Other than that its largely biased waffle and used by you to support your own opinion.  Can you imagine what this thread would be like if we all trawled through the internet to find editorials that support our personal views then post them up as a good read ðŸ™„


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## SocketRocket (Jul 10, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Must admit I'm a bit torn on who is correct in their assessment of the ambassadors character.  On one side you have Trump and Piers Morgan and in the other the head of the British diplomatic service. Mmm tough one.
		
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There is only one place for blame here and that's with who ever leaked the information and anyone complicent in it.  Trump has reacted as expected and Morgan et al are giving their opinions.


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## Kellfire (Jul 10, 2019)

If Farage gets the ambassador role we will all know for sure it was a set up against Darroch.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			There is only one place for blame here and that's with who ever leaked the information and anyone complicent in it.  Trump has reacted as expected and Morgan et al are giving their opinions.
		
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Not sure I mentioned anything about blame, I was just commenting on the moral fibre of the people who seem to have differing opinions on the ambassador's character and actions.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			He makes a few good points regarding the way people have seen their country socially engineered by the Liberal Elete without consideration of its effects on the most vunerable. 

Other than that its largely biased waffle and used by you to support your own opinion.  Can you imagine what this thread would be like if we all trawled through the internet to find editorials that support our personal views then post them up as a good read ðŸ™„
		
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Sorry, my bad. 

People of the forum, please don't post links to articles that may make you think and dare to question Farage and Bojo as it may trigger people.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 11, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			Sorry, my bad.

People of the forum, please don't post links to articles that may make you think and dare to question Farage and Bojo as it may trigger people.
		
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Sorry, My bad.

Dont question the way some posters constantly stick up editorials to support a view they have made countless times before. They dont even use the link as part of a point they are trying to put over..


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			He's (can you please stop this silly BeeJay, its juvenile) not the Prime Minister so not able to do anything as a back bencher.

Imagine a different scenario in business. You have a customer who is responsible for a large amount of your business, without this business you would need to lose half of your employees. Your sales Manager sends an email around criticising the CEO of the company and the way he manages the board of Directors, the email ends up at customers inbox by mistake.  The CEO demands that he never deals with your Sales Manager again otherwise he will take his orders to your competitor who has been working hard to get this contract from you.  You try to pacify him but he will not budge.  Honestly, what would you do?
		
Click to expand...

Thatâ€™s a very interesting analogy- that could be used in a very relevant scenario right now 

How about the business stick with behind their sales manager and the company look for business behind that customer because the world is wide and vast and their are loads of customers to deal with that can replace them and maybe the company can flourish even more ðŸ˜‰

Either way Trump must be sitting their smiling his head off right now - ambassador tells the truth about an administration the whole world knows is clearly incompetent at best with a leader who is prob the worst in world politics- he stomps his foot and the UK jump , how pathetic are we to be at the beck and call of a country that will ensure everything is in their benefit. Sad day


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## Hobbit (Jul 11, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:



			A very good read, written by a tory no less.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...eading-disaster?amp&__twitter_impression=true

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An appallingly bad read. Much of its early paragraphs centre around immigration being one of the key issues in the Brexit vote. It might have been in those areas with high immigration but I'd argue that the vast majority of Leavers in the northeast of England voted Leave for very different reasons. And if you look at the geographical concentrations of immigrants in the UK.... its just a poor piece in that respect.

As much as I agree that many of the top politicians are shallow and some from a privileged, private school/university background, those comments smack of inverted snobbery. Isn't it strange that people sneer at well educated and intelligent, successful high achievers, yet want well educated high achievers to lead the country. And what we often see is a minority liberal elite preaching form their high moral ground at what is wrong with the people in the UK, and the choices they have made. I detest that level of arrogance.

It harps on about many people wanting to go back to a rose tinted memory of great times for the UK. What a load of complete tosh. I'm getting close to the twilight years and my memories of the 60's and 70's, of almost constant news headlines of strikes and power cuts, rampant inflation and high interest rates. Isn't it strange that the zealot Remainers trot out this rubbish on a regular basis - if this is a measure of their intellect they need a look in the mirror of their own musings.

Johnson, Corbyn, Farage, McDonnell - God help us but there are a good number of politicians very close to the top table well worth a mention. But its the electorate that vote these people into power, and isn't that what the electorate are supposed to do? Isn't it what democracy is about, the people making choices? Minority idiots platforming pieces like this aren't just attacking the shallow politicians, they are attacking the majorities that voted those people into power. Where's the respect of democracy in that?

The piece highlights many things that are wrong in the UK but, I feel, the conclusions it draws and where it lays a lot of the blame is tainted with a strong political bias of its own. There is a reason the Newstatesman is a minority publication - seems a little bizarre me saying that as its one of the publications I subscribe to. There's often some good pieces in there but this isn't one of them.


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## jp5 (Jul 11, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			An appallingly bad read. Much of its early paragraphs centre around immigration being one of the key issues in the Brexit vote. It might have been in those areas with high immigration but I'd argue that the vast majority of Leavers in the northeast of England voted Leave for very different reasons. And if you look at the geographical concentrations of immigrants in the UK.... its just a poor piece in that respect.
		
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As much as Farage et al. have rowed back from this argument, polls show that immigration was a key issue in people voting to leave. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but would be wrong to deny it was a big factor.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Sorry but you're living in lala land if you think Boris has anything to do with this or is failing him in anyway..

Boris is not his boss, Teresa May is and she backed him. Trump whether you like it or not is the leader of one of our biggest Allies. So if Boris whilst trying to be elected and show he has support of a major world leading figure whether you like him or not then in fact Boris is doing his job correctly. It is I'll repeat in this countries interest to have America onside whether you like their leader or not. POTUS has publicly said the US will not deal with Sir Kim. So what do you expect would happen, do you propose that Boris just backs him and says up yours America. Considering the mess brexit has us in that would be a wonderful thing to do wouldn't it ðŸ™„

The fact you keep belittling the man calling him BeeJay and now trying to blame him for someone else actions, for not backing him when he is NOT his boss is laughable and says more about your bias in not liking the man than it does of any political nous.

Then comparing that to a customer service issue is even more laughable. Its in no way comparable, the trust of a nation we need onside compared to upsetting a customer is leagues apart.

I'm sorry SILH but you've had a complete brain fart with that one.
		
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The Ambassador knew his position was very difficult - indeed in the context of continuing conversations with key US admin officials he knew his position was untenable.  However if he had had the full support of his very soon to be boss - and not suspected that he was going to get sacked in two weeks in any case - then he might well have stayed on with the full backing of the Civil Service and the most senior politicians in the land.  It is apparent from what we are being told that this is just what the Ambassador was thinking and why he resigned - it is not my conjecture.

He did not resign because he realised his position was untenable - he resigned because he knew that, then found - the straw that broke the camel's back - that his boss in 13 days time wasn't behind him.

And so we have Farage and Tice (and the rest of Farage & Co) in unseemly joyful celebration of the demise and resignation of the Ambassador - and demanding that a new Ambassador is a strong Trump-loving and Brexit supporting businessman...

(they should really look at Trump's record when putting Trump-supporting businessmen into key positions - see for example Rex Tillerson - US Secretary of State - sacked because he didn't think, do and say exactly what Trump wanted him to think, do and say).


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			He did not resign because he realised his position was untenable - he resigned because he knew that, then found - the straw that broke the camel's back - that his boss in 13 days time wasn't behind him.
		
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So you think that if Boris had backed him he would have stayed in his job? Despite knowing his position was untenable and having been told by Trump that they would no longer work with him? How exactly was he meant to continue doing his job if he no longer had access to the White House or the American officials he needed to speak to, to be able to actually do his job? If as you say, he knew his position was untenable then he should have resigned regardless of whether Boris backed him or not.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 11, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			So you think that if Boris had backed him he would have stayed in his job? Despite knowing his position was untenable and having been told by Trump that they would no longer work with him? How exactly was he meant to continue doing his job if he no longer had access to the White House or the American officials he needed to speak to, to be able to actually do his job? If as you say, he knew his position was untenable then he should have resigned regardless of whether Boris backed him or not.
		
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We are told that BeeJay (preferable to me than BoJo - he is in no way amusing) not supporting him was the straw that broke the camel's back

My understanding is that he would not have resigned as he did.  That is not to say that the government would not have fund their own way of moving him on - such as him going on sick leave - with his deputy standing in.  What would Trump have said about that deputy...?  If it was 'the words' in the briefings  as well as the POTUS's other very personal views and attacks on him (a man he claims he has never met), then on what grounds could Trump apply that same reasoning to his deputy - a different person...on what grounds would Trump refuse to let his admin speak with that deputy?


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## Wolf (Jul 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The Ambassador knew his position was very difficult - indeed in the context of continuing conversations with key US admin officials he knew his position was untenable.  However if he had had the full support of his very soon to be boss - and not suspected that he was going to get sacked in two weeks in any case - then he might well have stayed on with the full backing of the Civil Service and the most senior politicians in the land.  It is apparent from what we are being told that this is just what the Ambassador was thinking and why he resigned - it is not my conjecture.

He did not resign because he realised his position was untenable - he resigned because he knew that, then found - the straw that broke the camel's back - that his boss in 13 days time wasn't behind him.

And so we have Farage and Tice (and the rest of Farage & Co) in unseemly joyful celebration of the demise and resignation of the Ambassador - and demanding that a new Ambassador is a strong Trump-loving and Brexit supporting businessman...

(they should really look at Trump's record when putting Trump-supporting businessmen into key positions - see for example Rex Tillerson - US Secretary of State - sacked because he didn't think, do and say exactly what Trump wanted him to think, do and say).
		
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You really are flogging a dead horse just to show your aversion to Boris. 

You openly state he knows his position is untenable. This is not because of lack of backing from Boris, but the refusal is the US administration refusing to deal with him as a result of his own actions. Whether Boris is to become his boss or not is irrelevant, the US won't deal with him so backing him becomes a pointless task and puts the relationship between 2 heads of state in an unnecessary position. You really are being very critical of the person who at the moment is in no need to back him instead of accepting the reality that if someone's position is untenable there is no other outcome. 

That alone shows rather than this being about the ambassador its actually about your own personal dislike if Boris. The fact you continue to call him BeeJay rather than by his name shows you prefer to make belittling remarks than actually accept what you have even said yourself that it's untenable.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are told that BeeJay (preferable to me than BoJo - he is in no way amusing) not supporting him was the straw that broke the camel's back
		
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But it shouldn't have been and it seems like a very convenient excuse to be able to blame Boris. Once he had been royally shafted by whoever leaked the email then he should have resigned. As you said, his position was untenable. As he was no longer able to perform his role he had to resign regardless of whether May, Boris or anyone else had supported him.


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## Wolf (Jul 11, 2019)

ColchesterFC said:



			But it shouldn't have been and it seems like a very convenient excuse to be able to blame Boris. Once he had been royally shafted by whoever leaked the email then he should have resigned. As you said, his position was untenable. As he was no longer able to perform his role he had to resign regardless of whether May, Boris or anyone else had supported him.
		
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Yet easier to keep insulting Boris than accept what he is saying himself it seems. 

Position was/is untenable, backing becomes irrelevant only outcome is resignation or removal from position.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 11, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Yet easier to keep insulting Boris than accept what he is saying himself it seems.

Position was/is untenable, backing becomes irrelevant only outcome is resignation or removal from position.
		
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...and so all those in the Cabinet; Government; Civil Service; Foreign Office; Westminster; retired ambassadors and other diplomats; previous Prime Ministers; previous Foreign Secretaries; previous Heads of the Civil Service; previous leaders of the Tory Party etc who thought BJ *should * have backed Darroch *as a matter of principal *- they are all wrong...

OK then - what do they know.  Farage, Tice and their buddies are ecstatic - salivating at the thought of a Brexit Businessman being Darroch's replacement.  So what's not to like.  You've got to love BeeJay.


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## ger147 (Jul 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and so all those in the Cabinet; Government; Civil Service; Foreign Office; Westminster; retired ambassadors and other diplomats; previous Prime Ministers; previous Foreign Secretaries; previous Heads of the Civil Service; previous leaders of the Tory Party etc who thought BJ *should * have backed Darroch *as a matter of principal *- they are all wrong...

OK then - what do they know.  You've got to love BeeJay.
		
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His position was untenable and he had to go.  Absolutely 100% NOTHING to do with Boris.

There are a 1,001 things you can go after Boris for if you so choose but this is most definitely not one of them...


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## SocketRocket (Jul 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Thatâ€™s a very interesting analogy- that could be used in a very relevant scenario right now

How about the business stick with behind their sales manager and the company look for business behind that customer because the world is wide and vast and their are loads of customers to deal with that can replace them and maybe the company can flourish even more ðŸ˜‰

Either way Trump must be sitting their smiling his head off right now - ambassador tells the truth about an administration the whole world knows is clearly incompetent at best with a leader who is prob the worst in world politics- he stomps his foot and the UK jump , how pathetic are we to be at the beck and call of a country that will ensure everything is in their benefit. Sad day
		
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I guess you have never had the responsibility of providing wages for your employees and being concerned that one of your biggest customers is threatening to take their business away if you dont meet their needs.  It sounds clever to suggest the moral pathway is always the best but when its bread on the table for a lot of people that has to go out the window or you take the consequences. It's similar to the way you challenge Brexiteers for accepting their may be some casualties if we leave the EU, when you say it's wrong to do anything if it puts anyones job at risk but in this case you have different principals.  So, is it right in some cases but wrong when its against your personal preferences.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I guess you have never had the responsibility of providing wages for your employees and being concerned that one of your biggest customers is threatening to take their business away if you dont meet their needs.  It sounds clever to suggest the moral pathway is always the best but when its bread on the table for a lot of people that has to go out the window or you take the consequences. It's similar to the way you challenge Brexiteers for accepting their may be some casualties if we leave the EU, when you say it's wrong to do anything if it puts anyones job at risk but in this case you have different principals.  So, is it right in some cases but wrong when its against your personal preferences.
		
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Itâ€™s certainly similar to Brexit etc

Just imagine that big business is the UK and who is the UK biggest customer - oh the EU , and you lose that biggest customer just think of all the wages and jobs that could potentially go ðŸ™„ 

But of course your thinking is different there isnâ€™t it - you are more than happy to lose that biggest customer in search of newer better ones on the horizon ðŸ™„

Iâ€™m guessing the point of my post flew right over your head - but itâ€™s interesting to see your different principles 

Donâ€™t upset the USA and do all thatâ€™s required to keep that â€œspecialâ€ relationship ( where everything is in the US favour ) but break that much more fruitful true special relationship with the EU no matter what the cost and as quick as possible 

Maybe itâ€™s just me but I guess itâ€™s a touch hypocritical


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## Wolf (Jul 11, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and so all those in the Cabinet; Government; Civil Service; Foreign Office; Westminster; retired ambassadors and other diplomats; previous Prime Ministers; previous Foreign Secretaries; previous Heads of the Civil Service; previous leaders of the Tory Party etc who thought BJ *should * have backed Darroch *as a matter of principal *- they are all wrong...

OK then - what do they know.  Farage, Tice and their buddies are ecstatic - salivating at the thought of a Brexit Businessman being Darroch's replacement.  So what's not to like.  You've got to love BeeJay.
		
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You really are being pedantic now. You've openly stated yourself his position was untenable but somehow you're pinning that on Boris.. 

You're just being ridiculous now SILH just like your persistent use of the term BeeJay. He had to go end of moan about all the other issues with Boris by all means but not this


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## SocketRocket (Jul 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Itâ€™s certainly similar to Brexit etc

Just imagine that big business is the UK and who is the UK biggest customer - oh the EU , and you lose that biggest customer just think of all the wages and jobs that could potentially go ðŸ™„

But of course your thinking is different there isnâ€™t it - you are more than happy to lose that biggest customer in search of newer better ones on the horizon ðŸ™„

Iâ€™m guessing the point of my post flew right over your head - but itâ€™s interesting to see your different principles

Donâ€™t upset the USA and do all thatâ€™s required to keep that â€œspecialâ€ relationship ( where everything is in the US favour ) but break that much more fruitful true special relationship with the EU no matter what the cost and as quick as possible

Maybe itâ€™s just me but I guess itâ€™s a touch hypocritical
		
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Why do you suggest that if we leave the EU we will also lose all our trade in Europe.  Leaving the EU is in reality a change in trading arrangements, trade will continue and there should not be much difference. A small number of products will be affected by tarrifs but that would be the same for both parties and as the UK holds a net trading deficit we will not be the only ones wanting a new trade arrangement.   I find it hard to understand why people like you continue to make these assertions that trade will stop.    I also disagree with your suggestion we would be breaking a fruitful true special relationship, all we do is pay through the nose for an organisation we have always been uneasy with and wants to lead us down a road of closer political union which dilutes us into a grey gloop of subservient countries.  History tells us this will never work.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 11, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why do you suggest that if we leave the EU we will also lose all our trade in Europe.  Leaving the EU is in reality a change in trading arrangements, trade will continue and there should not be much difference. A small number of products will be affected by tarrifs but that would be the same for both parties and as the UK holds a net trading deficit we will not be the only ones wanting a new trade arrangement.   I find it hard to understand why people like you continue to make these assertions that trade will stop.    I also disagree with your suggestion we would be breaking a fruitful true special relationship, all we do is pay through the nose for an organisation we have always been uneasy with and wants to lead us down a road of closer political union which dilutes us into a grey gloop of subservient countries.  History tells us this will never work.
		
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ðŸ˜‚

All the twisting and turning when it suits ðŸ˜‚

Guess the argument only fits when it backs up your own point - when itâ€™s turned around itâ€™s dismissed ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Kellfire (Jul 11, 2019)

Lots of swearing but as always the great satirist that is Jonathan Pie nails it. 




__ https://www.facebook.com/796085293847699/posts/2157532677702947


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## SocketRocket (Jul 11, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			ðŸ˜‚

All the twisting and turning when it suits ðŸ˜‚

Guess the argument only fits when it backs up your own point - when itâ€™s turned around itâ€™s dismissed ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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You are not making any sense.  I have pointed out the nonsense in your posts and you seem incapable of defending it, so you post this absurd reply that makes you appear somewhat juvenile.  If you cant defend your stance without this assenous level of reply then just give up ðŸ™„


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## PhilTheFragger (Jul 12, 2019)

For goodness sake , agree to disagree and move on.

You arenâ€™t going to change peopleâ€™s opinions at this stage


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## Hobbit (Jul 12, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why do you suggest that if we leave the EU we will also lose all our trade in Europe.  Leaving the EU is in reality a change in trading arrangements, trade will continue and there should not be much difference. A small number of products will be affected by tarrifs but that would be the same for both parties and as the UK holds a net trading deficit we will not be the only ones wanting a new trade arrangement.   I find it hard to understand why people like you continue to make these assertions that trade will stop.    I also disagree with your suggestion we would be breaking a fruitful true special relationship, all we do is pay through the nose for an organisation we have always been uneasy with and wants to lead us down a road of closer political union which dilutes us into a grey gloop of subservient countries.  History tells us this will never work.
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			Itâ€™s certainly similar to Brexit etc

Just imagine that big business is the UK and who is the UK biggest customer - oh the EU , and you lose that biggest customer just think of all the wages and jobs that could potentially go ðŸ™„

But of course your thinking is different there isnâ€™t it - you are more than happy to lose that biggest customer in search of newer better ones on the horizon ðŸ™„

Iâ€™m guessing the point of my post flew right over your head - but itâ€™s interesting to see your different principles

Donâ€™t upset the USA and do all thatâ€™s required to keep that â€œspecialâ€ relationship ( where everything is in the US favour ) but break that much more fruitful true special relationship with the EU no matter what the cost and as quick as possible

Maybe itâ€™s just me but I guess itâ€™s a touch hypocritical
		
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You both need to look at it from both perspectives. You are both right.


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 13, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1149759730128171009


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## SocketRocket (Jul 13, 2019)

Hacker Khan said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1149759730128171009

Click to expand...

Well say something!!! We can all produce these internet links that support our views. ðŸ™„

Here, I'll do it now:
https://londonlovesbusiness.com/wou...e-minister-heres-what-business-leaders-think/


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## Hacker Khan (Jul 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Well say something!!! We can all produce these internet links that support our views. ðŸ™„

Here, I'll do it now:
https://londonlovesbusiness.com/wou...e-minister-heres-what-business-leaders-think/

Click to expand...

Some times no words are needed as you just let the incompetence and clear lack of a plan apart from 'come on, where's your optimisism' speak for themselves.


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## gmc40 (Jul 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Well say something!!! We can all produce these internet links that support our views. ðŸ™„

Here, I'll do it now:
https://londonlovesbusiness.com/wou...e-minister-heres-what-business-leaders-think/

Click to expand...


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## SocketRocket (Jul 14, 2019)

gmc40 said:









Click to expand...

What a predetermined setup that was.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jul 14, 2019)

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/metr...-admits-doesnt-know-brexit-plan-10251005/amp/

Canâ€™t wait for this man to be in charge of our nation ðŸ™„, we will have our own idiot instead of going on about the one in charge of the US.


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## Kellfire (Jul 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What a predetermined setup that was.
		
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Lots of people donâ€™t know the vermin thatâ€™s about to become the Prime Minister. Donâ€™t you think itâ€™s vital for democracy for people to know? Democracy is so important. We need democracy.


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## gmc40 (Jul 14, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			What a predetermined setup that was.
		
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__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1944599995829874


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## Hobbit (Jul 14, 2019)

Oh please! How about we dredge up some stuff on Churchill too? One of the biggest rebels ever, switched parties at least once, and look how he is so well respected.

I dislike Johnson immensely but do we have to go back to what he did at nursery school to make a point?


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## gmc40 (Jul 14, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Oh please! How about we dredge up some stuff on Churchill too? One of the biggest rebels ever, switched parties at least once, and look how he is so well respected.

I dislike Johnson immensely but do we have to go back to what he did at nursery school to make a point?
		
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Churchill isn't about to become Prime Minister, Johnson is. These videos show the character of the man and some of the events are recent enough to matter. We aren't talking about a one off regrettable incident when he was young, he's been like this throughout his life and remains the same today.


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## Hobbit (Jul 14, 2019)

gmc40 said:



			Churchill isn't about to become Prime Minister, Johnson is. These videos show the character of the man and some of the events are recent enough to matter. We aren't talking about a one off regrettable incident when he was young, he's been like this throughout his life and remains the same today.
		
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Everyone and is dog knows he's a Richard, and then some but... really.... its gonna happen whatever. I'd rather spend my time eating tapas and drinking beer than trawling the internet to prove what everyone already knows...


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## gmc40 (Jul 14, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Everyone and is dog knows he's a Richard, and then some but... really.... its gonna happen whatever. I'd rather spend my time eating tapas and drinking beer than trawling the internet to prove what everyone already knows...
		
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Fair point but you could apply that logic to pretty much most threads in here. Whatâ€™s the point? May as all just pack up and watch the telly!

And if youâ€™re eating Tapas and drinking beer you shouldnâ€™t be responding to me!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 15, 2019)

Johnson thinks he is Churchill, southern Tory supporters think he is Nigel Farage whilst the rest of us think he is Benny Hill.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 15, 2019)

It is perhaps interesting that being 'on top of the detail' means for Johnson that it is not necessary to know *anything *about WTO GATT Article XXIV Para 5c - when that paragraph is in it's entirety the following:

_any interim agreement referred to in subparagraphs (a) and (b) shall include a plan and schedule for the formation of such a customs union or of such a free-trade area within a reasonable length of time. _

A rather crucial paragraph one might think...

And when being grilled by Andrew Neil, I do wonder why he did not quote Article XXIV Paragraph 10 (about which I do not actually hear that much debate) which allows paras 5 through 9 to be flexed or relaxed if a 2/3rds majority of 'members' of the WTO agree to do so - provided that proposals put forward to the WTO by the UK and the EU are in the spirit of Article XXIV.

Maybe he had been so advised but under pressure from Neil he had forgotten.  Neil was being rather pressing...


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## User62651 (Jul 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is perhaps interesting that being 'on top of the detail' means for Johnson that it is not necessary to know *anything *about WTO GATT Article XXIV Para 5c - when that paragraph is in it's entirety the following:

_any interim agreement referred to in subparagraphs (a) and (b) shall include a plan and schedule for the formation of such a customs union or of such a free-trade area within a reasonable length of time. _

A rather crucial paragraph one might think...

And when being grilled by Andrew Neil, I do wonder why he did not quote Article XXIV Paragraph 10 (about which I do not actually hear that much debate) which allows paras 5 through 9 to be flexed or relaxed if a 2/3rds majority of 'members' of the WTO agree to do so - provided that proposals put forward to the WTO by the UK and the EU are in the spirit of Article XXIV.

Maybe he had been so advised but under pressure from Neil he had forgotten.  Neil was being rather pressing...
		
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I really don't think joe public care about the detail, Brexit has become such an entrenched battle that 'winning' is all that matters and Johnson supporters love him no matter what he says or doesn't say. If Johnson gets UK out by Halloween he'll be revered by half the country and loathed by the other half, no matter the after effects. There will be no 'healing' or coming together with Johnson, the healing will come with a later PM, a new face, all current players are tainted by Brexit, no matter their views on it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 15, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			I really don't think joe public care about the detail, Brexit has become such an entrenched battle that 'winning' is all that matters and Johnson supporters love him no matter what he says or doesn't say. If Johnson gets UK out by Halloween he'll be revered by half the country and loathed by the other half, no matter the after effects. There will be no 'healing' or coming together with Johnson, the healing will come with a later PM, a new face, all current players are tainted by Brexit, no matter their views on it.
		
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Yup - that's where we are...

The pity is that so many Johnson supporters just hear the words - especially around No Deal - and think it is all just going to be OK because Johnson says so - when Johnson by his own utterances doesn't himself really seem to have a full grip of some of the basics.

That I might not understand the detail of such as Article 24 opens me up to criticism -  and I accept that.  I am not one of the many business, commerce, trade and negotiation experts on here who level such accusations at me - and I admit to my ignorance in many such matters - I am just one of joe public who has tried to understand by reading and listening.  But if I am ignorant in respect of WTO GATT Art24 then so, as you suggest, are the vast majority of the electorate - but were I to suggest such an ignorance of supporters of No Deal I would be accused of calling Leave voters stupid - when as we all know there is a very big difference between stupidity and ignorance.

The truth of it - in my opinion - is that when we voted the vast majority of the electorate were completely ignorant of WTO GATT Article 24 and it's implications in respect of leaving without a deal - No Deal not actually being on the table at that time and only appearing as a Dave Davies negotiating strategy post vote.

But there you go.  Roll on a _No Deal _withdrawal with Johnson as PM.


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## Hobbit (Jul 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yup - that's where we are...

The pity is that so many Johnson supporters just hear the words - especially around No Deal - and think it is all just going to be OK because Johnson says so - when Johnson by his own utterances doesn't himself really seem to have a full grip of some of the basics.

That I might not understand the detail of such as Article 24 opens me up to criticism -  and I accept that.  I am not one of the many business, commerce, trade and negotiation experts on here who level such accusations at me - and I admit to my ignorance in many such matters - I am just one of joe public who has tried to understand by reading and listening.  But if I am ignorant in respect of WTO GATT Art24 then so, as you suggest, are the vast majority of the electorate - but were I to suggest such an ignorance of supporters of No Deal I would be accused of calling Leave voters stupid - when as we all know there is a very big difference between stupidity and ignorance.

The truth of it - in my opinion - is that when we voted the vast majority of the electorate were completely ignorant of WTO GATT Article 24 and it's implications in respect of leaving without a deal - No Deal not actually being on the table at that time and only appearing as a Dave Davies negotiating strategy post vote.

But there you go.  Roll on a _No Deal _withdrawal with Johnson as PM.
		
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How do you know that "so many Johnson supporters just hear the words...?" I'm intrigued to know where you get this insight from?

Don't get me wrong, I detest Johnson and feel the UK is about to end up with a Trump-lite leader but I am curious as to where your tea leaf reading skills come from.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 15, 2019)

The brexit supporting clientele of 'spoons, in Uxbridge, don't have a particularly high opinion of Boris... In fact, if you said something positive of him you'd do well to get out unscathed...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 15, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			How do you know that "so many Johnson supporters just hear the words...?" I'm intrigued to know where you get this insight from?

Don't get me wrong, I detest Johnson and feel the UK is about to end up with a Trump-lite leader but I am curious as to where your tea leaf reading skills come from.
		
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I don't know that at all.  But if you are suggesting that most Johnson supporters may well understand more about WTO GATT Article 24 than Johnson does then OK; but I suspect that they don't.  I for one did not understand ANYTHING about Article 24 when I voted (and I might suggest that I was not alone in that ignorance) and have only read and tried to understand Article 24 in full since you suggested that there is flexibility in there that I was ignorant of - perhaps that flexibility is in paragraph 10.

TBH I'd have thought that we would have heard more about para 10 as it is quite an easy riposte to criticisms of Art 24 para 5b being a straightforward interim solution to WTO default tariffs if leaving with no Deal and trading under the auspices of the WTO. UK and EU just need 2/3rds of WTO member countries on board and all will be OK.


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## Hobbit (Jul 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't know that at all.  But if you are suggesting that most Johnson supporters may well understand more about WTO GATT Article 24 than Johnson does then OK.  But I suspect that they don't, as I for one did not understand ANYTHING about Article 24 when I voted (and I might suggest that I was not alone in that ignorance) and have only read Article 24 since you suggested that there is flexibility in there - perhaps in paragraph 10.
		
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I'm not suggesting anything at all, its you that said, not intimated, that "so many just hear the words...?" You spent a significant amount of time attacking Brexit supporters, as well as Brexit itself, and now you're attacking Johnson's supporters.

Telling us why Johnson is the wrong choice, I will almost certainly agree with pretty much everything you say. Attack those that support him, no that is simply wrong. When are you going to trot out the Leavers/Johnson supporters are thick and uneducated, because that's the next logical step with your summation?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 15, 2019)

I will not - as I hope I have not.

But I might suggest that in respect of trading under the auspices of WTO GATT Article 24 following a _No Deal _withdrawal, the vast majority of the electorate, and that electorate will include all Leave voters - were as ignorant as I was about Article 24 and leaving without a deal when we voted.  That I have now read and tried to understand Article 24 and it's associated clarifications does not make me clever - it simply makes me more informed than I was.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I will not - as I hope I have not.

But I might suggest that in respect of trading under the auspices of WTO GATT Article 24 following a _No Deal _withdrawal, the vast majority of the electorate, and that electorate will include all Leave voters - were as ignorant as I was about Article 24 and leaving without a deal when we voted.  That I have now read and tried to understand Article 24 and it's associated clarifications does not make me clever - it simply makes me more informed than I was.
		
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Why dont you just accept that you have an opinion on Brexit  and others have theirs, absoutely nothing you post here will make any difference to these views. So, who are you trying to convince by this continuing out rush of condemnation?   I have the tag by some on here of being the arch Leaver, the fanatical 'No Deal' enthusiast; maybe they are correct on their accusations, maybe not but I dont continually post diatribes of anti-remain dogma trying to prove their views wrong, I may counter a post that suggests leaving is wrong or leavers are stupid to hold their view but I dont waste time trying to castigate remaining.

You are an Intelligent man, why can't you see that all you are doing is trying to convince yourself of something you seem to be convinced of.  By all means challenge if you think you have been wrongly accused but otherwise give yourself and everyone else a break.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 15, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



*he'll be revered by half the country and loathed by the other half, no matter the after effects  *

Click to expand...

 LIke just about every other PM in history.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 15, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Why dont you just accept that you have an opinion on Brexit  and others have theirs, absoutely nothing you post here will make any difference to these views. So, who are you trying to convince by this continuing out rush of condemnation?   I have the tag by some on here of being the arch Leaver, the fanatical 'No Deal' enthusiast; maybe they are correct on their accusations, maybe not but I dont continually post diatribes of anti-remain dogma trying to prove their views wrong, I may counter a post that suggests leaving is wrong or leavers are stupid to hold their view but I dont waste time trying to castigate remaining.

You are an Intelligent man, why can't you see that all you are doing is trying to convince yourself of something you seem to be convinced of.  By all means challenge if you think you have been wrongly accused but otherwise give yourself and everyone else a break.
		
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I am simply baffled by the guy and his attraction - I just do not get his 'have faith' shtick.  And so when he displays such ignorance as he did about Article 24 and yet still it does not matter - I frankly despair that he will be our PM - but in desperation there is always hope...


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## SocketRocket (Jul 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am simply baffled by the guy and his attraction - I just do not get his 'have faith' shtick.  And so when he displays such ignorance as he did about Article 24 and yet still it does not matter - I frankly despair that he will be our PM - but in desperation there is always hope...
		
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I watched the Andrew Neil interview and it just seemed Neil played a silly game to catch him out.   However what is the point of keeping on about him, I think Corbyn is a Twazzer but I dont spend my spare time trying to find editorials to put him down, people can make their own minds up, I will of course make my opinion known if it's part part of a  debate though


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## Hobbit (Jul 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am simply baffled by the guy and his attraction - I just do not get his 'have faith' shtick.  And so when he displays such ignorance as he did about Article 24 and yet still it does not matter - I frankly despair that he will be our PM - but in desperation there is always hope...
		
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I don't think its a "have faith" thing. Have a think about what Trump/Farage/Corbyn offer. They offer, and offered, what the people wanted, and promise to deliver it. The Tories, or at times the majority of them have always had an issue with EU membership. And it is the Tory membership that will vote on their leader. Why wouldn't they vote for a tub thumper who loudly promises to deliver?

As for not knowing the detail of WTO Gatt 24; why should he need to know? The MD's I've worked directly for have known very little of the detail but as strategists they have been spot on. Top table creates strategy and policy and drives others to find the detail to deliver it.

Boris will have been briefed on WTO, and maybe Gatt 24 but he won't remember the detail, or not all of it. His question to his advisors was probably along the lines of will WTO provide avenues to deliver a No Deal Brexit. Someone may have said yes, and he's now saying WTO will allow the UK an avenue to deliver a No Deal Brexit.

As for the leadership election, just like the Brexit referendum, most will have long since made their mind up. A few on the fringe, either way, might change their mind but it won't change the result without something monumental happening.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 15, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I don't think its a "have faith" thing. Have a think about what Trump/Farage/Corbyn offer. They offer, and offered, what the people wanted, and promise to deliver it. The Tories, or at times the majority of them have always had an issue with EU membership. And it is the Tory membership that will vote on their leader. Why wouldn't they vote for a tub thumper who loudly promises to deliver?

As for not knowing the detail of WTO Gatt 24; why should he need to know? The MD's I've worked directly for have known very little of the detail but as strategists they have been spot on. Top table creates strategy and policy and drives others to find the detail to deliver it.

Boris will have been briefed on WTO, and maybe Gatt 24 but he won't remember the detail, or not all of it. His question to his advisors was probably along the lines of will WTO provide avenues to deliver a No Deal Brexit. Someone may have said yes, and he's now saying WTO will allow the UK an avenue to deliver a No Deal Brexit.

As for the leadership election, just like the Brexit referendum, most will have long since made their mind up. A few on the fringe, either way, might change their mind but it won't change the result without something monumental happening.
		
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I have met some CEOs in my time also - and one - the CEO of a global defence and aerospace company - blew his top with his team when he was caught out by an obvious question from his most important customer.  It was a question that his team should have told him would be coming and that he should be prepared for - and for which he should have had the answer.  Johnson would have known he would be asked about free trade arrangements with the EU following a _No Deal -_ it is possibly the most crucial economic risk mitigations and he should have been prepared.  Para 5c of Art24 is not that difficult to grasp and learn - almost by heart - and is absolutely crucial to his argument.   I suspect his team did try and prep him but for whatever reason it did not get stuck between the ears - and it really was not difficult.  It was clear he didn't know about 5c.  Fail.

But I agree.  To the majority of Tory Members none of that makes any difference as he has promised to get UK out of EU by 31/10 - do or die...(though I wonder about what he means by the 'die' bit of that...as seemingly it isn't his resignation)


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## Hobbit (Jul 15, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have met some CEOs in my time also - and one - the CEO of a global defence and aerospace company - blew his top with his team when he was caught out by an obvious question from his most important customer.  It was a question that his team should have told him would be coming and that he should be prepared for - and for which he should have had the answer.  Johnson would have known he would be asked about free trade arrangements with the EU following a _No Deal._  He should have been prepared.  Para 5c of Art24 is not that difficult to grasp and is absolutely crucial to his argument.   I suspect his team did try and prep him but for whatever reason it did not get stuck between the ears - and it really was not difficult.  It was clear he didn't know about 5c.  Fail.
		
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In your opinion.

We're looking at a small part of the overall detail that Boris needs to be prepped on. He's running for PM, and is questioned about everything in the news from around the world on an almost hourly basis. Add to that all the UK detail, EU Brexit detail, leadership/opposition detail. Inter party relationships(DUP), future cabinets, an article he wrote xx years ago...

Expecting him to know WTO Gatt 24 down to paragraph level is absurd. Equally, I don't think he's the most adept at thinking on his feet, and as we know occasionally engages mouth before brain.


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## gmc40 (Jul 16, 2019)

The Tapas canâ€™t have been that tasty!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have met some CEOs in my time also - and one - the CEO of a global defence and aerospace company - blew his top with his team when he was caught out by an obvious question from his most important customer.  It was a question that his team should have told him would be coming and that he should be prepared for - and for which he should have had the answer.  Johnson would have known he would be asked about free trade arrangements with the EU following a _No Deal -_ it is possibly the most crucial economic risk mitigations and he should have been prepared.  Para 5c of Art24 is not that difficult to grasp and learn - almost by heart - and is absolutely crucial to his argument.   I suspect his team did try and prep him but for whatever reason it did not get stuck between the ears - and it really was not difficult.  It was clear he didn't know about 5c.  Fail.

But I agree.  To the majority of Tory Members none of that makes any difference as he has promised to get UK out of EU by 31/10 - do or die...(though I wonder about what he means by the 'die' bit of that...as seemingly it isn't his resignation)
		
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When a CEO is in discussion/negotiation with a customer he will normally have his technical advisors with him to explain or answer questions on detail. I have done this myself, it would be commercial suicide to face it up on your own.  We have both worked for an Aerospace Defence Contractor and understand how much detailed information there is in their systems and how no-one is capable of understanding and quoting it all.


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## jp5 (Jul 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			I watched the Andrew Neil interview and it just seemed Neil played a silly game to catch him out.
		
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By asking Boris if he knew the detail of the mechanism that Boris thinks is the way forward?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 16, 2019)

jp5 said:



			By asking Boris if he knew the detail of the mechanism that Boris thinks is the way forward?
		
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...and it is not difficult detail.  It is absolutely basic knowledge.  He knows of para 5b; he clearly thought that that was that.   There are three short paragraphs 5a to 5c - and they take 5 minutes to read.  They are not that difficult to understand.  The absolutely critical constraints around what Johnson proposes are set out in para 5c - there has to be a basic agreement of the future deal and a plan for getting from now to then.  And para 10 is also very short and dead easy to understand.  The complexity where there is complexity is in the clarifications around questions that are raised.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am simply baffled by the guy and his attraction - I just do not get his 'have faith' shtick.  And so when he displays such ignorance as he did about Article 24 and yet still it does not matter - I frankly despair that he will be our PM - but in desperation there is always hope...
		
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Voters like the odious Tory member who laughed and said we should all support Johnson as he is the only leader with any optimism.
I am optimistic that Hearts will win the SPFL this year so, using his judgement, you should all support me in my optimism.


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## Crazyface (Jul 16, 2019)

I watched the A. Neil interviews last night, well most of it. What a waste of time that was. all he tried to do was trip them up. Useless! Boris won, but only on pure passion. The other bloke is such a smarmy slimeball with evil dead snake eyes.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 16, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I watched the A. Neil interviews last night, well most of it. What a waste of time that was. all he tried to do was trip them up. Useless! Boris won, but only on pure passion. The other bloke is such a smarmy slimeball with evil dead snake eyes.
		
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Tripping up or asking pretty basic questions around what they are proposing.  Whatever it was - good practice for BJ for when he is in with the EU negotiators - he only really fell over the once.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 16, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			I watched the A. Neil interviews last night, well most of it. What a waste of time that was. all he tried to do was trip them up. Useless! Boris won, but only on pure passion. The other bloke is such a smarmy slimeball with evil dead snake eyes.
		
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I've heard he speaks highly of your good self ...

When he hits on the EU supporting lady... He is everybody's hero... Including mine ...
Dare trip up the 'lovable' Boris and all of a sudden he [Neil] morphs into a bad boy ...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 16, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Voters like the odious Tory member who laughed and said we should all support Johnson as he is the only leader with any optimism.
I am optimistic that Hearts will win the SPFL this year so, using his judgement, you should all support me in my optimism.
		
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Your optimism is touching - however I fear that you will be disappointed because St Johnstone will win it - as any fule kno - though only fules are full of such misplaced and unfounded optimism.


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## User62651 (Jul 16, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			LIke just about every other PM in history.
		
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No, Johnson's premiership will see a new level of loathing of a political leader. He will pretend it's not there like Trump does, but he will get zero respite. 
This in a hung parliament is bad news. He can't call a GE until he's left EU or he'll lose to Farage and he can't leave EU until he gets parliamentary numbers to back him, which he doesn't have. He's in a worse position than May was.


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## Hobbit (Jul 16, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and it is not difficult detail.  It is absolutely basic knowledge.  He knows of para 5b; he clearly thought that that was that.   There are three short paragraphs 5a to 5c - and they take 5 minutes to read.  They are not that difficult to understand.  The absolutely critical constraints around what Johnson proposes are set out in para 5c - there has to be a basic agreement of the future deal and a plan for getting from now to then.  And para 10 is also very short and dead easy to understand.  The complexity where there is complexity is in the clarifications around questions that are raised.
		
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The complexity in para 10, from what I can vaguely remember, is its as long as a piece of string. It is the get out clause that allows both sides to operate under WTO whilst they are still working out the detail of an agreement. Its an agreement in principle thing... complexity in clarifications in para 10 doesn't exist. Its there to give wriggle room to both sides whilst they decide what the questions are.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 16, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			No, Johnson's premiership will see a new level of loathing of a political leader. He will pretend it's not there like Trump does, but he will get zero respite.
This in a hung parliament is bad news. He can't call a GE until he's left EU or he'll lose to Farage and he can't leave EU until he gets parliamentary numbers to back him, which he doesn't have. He's in a worse position than May was.
		
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And Labour cannot call an election as they will get slaughtered...â€¦â€¦...we are doomed a tell you doomed.
A four way clustermuckingfuddle.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 16, 2019)

maxfli65 said:



			No, Johnson's premiership will see a new level of loathing of a political leader. He will pretend it's not there like Trump does, but he will get zero respite.
This in a hung parliament is bad news. He can't call a GE until he's left EU or he'll lose to Farage and he can't leave EU until he gets parliamentary numbers to back him, which he doesn't have. He's in a worse position than May was.
		
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But does he need parliamentary numbers.  We are still in the grips of article 50 which many will now regret voting for and is the backstop unless it can be revoked. Unless the remainers can change the legality we will leave whatever huffing and puffing is unleashed. There has been much said about peroging but in reality all it is doing is maintaining the status quo, it changes nothing that has already been agreed and voted for.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 19, 2019)

Ah Kippers...never mind BJ - back to your DT EU correspondent days making things up - or just one of these quite easy mistakes to make I suppose.  Mere detail that it appears that it is the UK that determines the packaging required for products such as your Kipper-in-a-Bag with some coolant/ice when they are business to customer. And was it an I-o-M kipper?  Oh never mind - just more detail.  

It's a kipper porky but it won't matter a jot as the party faithful lapped it up as an example of EU insanity. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49030873


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## Mudball (Jul 19, 2019)

The good thing is that BoJo has the full backing of the Orange one from across the pond...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 22, 2019)

I hear Johnson is going to launch a 'charm offensive' with a short visit to Scotland to save the Union.
You have to admire his courage......or, will he choose the same isolated Perthshire village hut as May did.

My money is on the village hut.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 22, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			The complexity in para 10, from what I can vaguely remember, is its as long as a piece of string. It is the get out clause that allows both sides to operate under WTO whilst they are still working out the detail of an agreement. Its an agreement in principle thing... complexity in clarifications in para 10 doesn't exist. Its there to give wriggle room to both sides whilst they decide what the questions are.
		
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Para 10.

_The CONTRACTING PARTIES may by a two-thirds majority approve proposals which do not fully comply with the requirements of paragraphs 5 to 9 inclusive, provided that such proposals lead to the formation of a customs union or a free-trade area in the sense of this Article. _

In the context of Gatt CONTRACTING PARTIES are all countries signed up to the WTO.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 22, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I hear Johnson is going to launch a 'charm offensive' with a short visit to Scotland to save the Union.
You have to admire his courage......or, will he choose the same isolated Perthshire village hut as May did.

My money is on the village hut.

Click to expand...

Or maybe he'll get a boat from Anster to the Isle of May...and wave his kipper at the seagulls.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Or maybe he'll get a boat from Anster to the Isle of May...and wave his kipper at the seagulls.
		
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His entourage would never get past Kirkcaldy â€¦â€¦â€¦..they would need to parachute him in. Waving his Flegs as he decends.


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## drdel (Jul 22, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I hear Johnson is going to launch a 'charm offensive' with a short visit to Scotland to save the Union.
You have to admire his courage......or, will he choose the same isolated Perthshire village hut as May did.

My money is on the village hut.

Click to expand...

So what is it you want from the potential new PM? If they don't make a trip north you complain of being ignored by Westminster - if they do then you say they'll be met with hostility!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 22, 2019)

drdel said:



			So what is it you want from the potential new PM? If they don't make a trip north you complain of being ignored by Westminster - if they do then you say they'll be met with hostility!
		
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Well of course he must head north - him being a _One Nation Conservative _(whatever that means these days I am not so sure).  And he will be welcomed with open arms...

Or as Burns wrote about such as Johnson - views that might well still hold for many Scots 

_Ye see yon birkie, ca'd a lord, 
Wha struts, an' stares, an' a' that; 
Tho' hundreds worship at his word, 
He's but a coof for a' that: 
For a' that, an' a' that, 
His ribband, star, an' a' that: 
The man o' independent mind 
He looks an' laughs at a' that.  _


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 22, 2019)

drdel said:



			So what is it you want from the potential new PM? If they don't make a trip north you complain of being ignored by Westminster - if they do then you say they'll be met with hostility!
		
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How about when they make the trip north they then engage with the public rather than half a dozen Britnat zoomers in a rural village hut.

Speak to the workers rather than the owners of Spirit/Food/Trawler companies or even be so bold as to address the Scottish Parliament.
I might then consider them one nation Tories.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well of course he must head north - him being a _One Nation Conservative _(whatever that means these days I am not so sure).  And he will be welcomed with open arms...

Or as Burns wrote about such as Johnson - views that might well still hold for many Scots

_Ye see yon birkie, ca'd a lord, 
Wha struts, an' stares, an' a' that; 
Tho' hundreds worship at his word, 
He's but a coof for a' that: 
For a' that, an' a' that, 
His ribband, star, an' a' that: 
The man o' independent mind 
He looks an' laughs at a' that.  _

Click to expand...

An his bittrrr toungie booooors us all, an' a that.


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## spongebob59 (Jul 22, 2019)

Quite extraordinary times :

1. This is rather extraordinary - Sir Alan Duncan tells 
@bbcnews
 he quit govt so he could push for an emergency vote tomorrow, after the next PM is announced, to test if they can hold a majority 
2. Duncan makes plain he has held doubts about Johnson's character for a long time, but angrily dismisses suggestions idea of holding a vote on a hypothetical Johnson govt before it's formed was personal - he says it was the way to avoid a much worse crisis in autumn 
3. Sir Alan astonished that Bercow has turned his request down, and fears much bigger meltdown after recess when next PM can't hold a majority in the Commons - his critics may reckon he was trying to kill off a Johnson govt before he's even gone to the Palace


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 22, 2019)

spongebob59 said:



			Quite extraordinary times :

1. This is rather extraordinary - Sir Alan Duncan tells
@bbcnews
he quit govt so he could push for an emergency vote tomorrow, after the next PM is announced, to test if they can hold a majority
2. Duncan makes plain he has held doubts about Johnson's character for a long time, but angrily dismisses suggestions idea of holding a vote on a hypothetical Johnson govt before it's formed was personal - he says it was the way to avoid a much worse crisis in autumn
3. Sir Alan astonished that Bercow has turned his request down, and fears much bigger meltdown after recess when next PM can't hold a majority in the Commons - his critics may reckon he was trying to kill off a Johnson govt before he's even gone to the Palace
		
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And lob into the majority mix that Tory MP for Dover - Charlie Elphicke - has had the Tory whip removed.  Though he'll sit as an independent and will, I am sure, support the government on all matters, I don't think that his vote will count in respect of the formal conservative/DUP party majority in the HoC.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 22, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			An his bittrrr toungie booooors us all, an' a that.
		
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You could actually have done better than that...


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## SocketRocket (Jul 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You could actually have done better than that...
		
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Thought it was quite good for a sasenac.  

O, wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Thought it was quite good for a sasenac. 

O, wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as others see us!

Click to expand...

Applies to every single one of us.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2019)

Looking forward to BJ announcing his team. 

I would especially love Jacob Rees-Mogg to be given the role of Chief Secretary to the Treasury (can't see him as Chancellor given other desperate for that position) - with him having to work with those he has so vigorously dismissed as _Remainers _- architects and enablers of Project Fear. 

And I do wonder whose economic forecasts he will then tell us that he believes, and upon which the government will base it's economic and spending policies.  Because he has continually dismissed Treasury and OBC forecasts - maybe BJs team will just go with the stuff coming out of the University of Cardiff - Minford being JR-Ms fave economist...

Though we hear very little from Minford these days - or have I missed all his seminars and current forecasting extolling the virtues of Brexit and a _No Deal _Brexit.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 23, 2019)

Now there's a surprise NOT!

It's Boris... And, so it begins...


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## Crazyface (Jul 23, 2019)

Whoooooo !!!!!!!


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## SocketRocket (Jul 23, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Applies to every single one of us.
		
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No, it doesn't.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 23, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			No, it doesn't.
		
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If you know anything about what Burns was writing about, then you'll know that he wrote these words to apply to every single one of us - not just the louse he was looking at or any single person or group of individuals...

And you'll also know that in _'A Man's a Man for A' That'_  Burns was very much aiming his barbed verse at a certain type of individual.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 23, 2019)

Crazyface said:



			Whoooooo !!!!!!!
		
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Likewise, great result for those seeking a united Ireland and an independent Scotland.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Likewise, great result for those seeking a united Ireland and an independent Scotland.
		
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Are you actually acknowledging Boris will honour his promises?
As I've never seen any evidence, previously, of him doing so...


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## Tashyboy (Jul 23, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Likewise, great result for those seeking a united Ireland and an independent Scotland.
		
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You know what Doon, your shock, and suprise plus enjoyment re Bojo becoming PM is not a suprise. Fortunately for me I am a floating voter. I have no alliance or allegiance to any party what so ever. I am entertained by those that support either the Tories, Labour or SNP and others. It more than amuses me that people actually think the sun shines out of the leaders of those partys Arses. They are so blinkered that they think Bojo, Corbyn ( God help me) Krankie etc is the answer to our prayers. 
People like me, floating voters, people that are thick as pig shit ( like the gammon link Kelly ðŸ˜˜) Brexiteers or remainers. They want a genuine alternative, To the shower of shit politics we now have. Hardcore Tories think Bojo is the dream ticket. The same Tory clowns that thought the same of Cameron and May. Even worse, Labour think Corbyn and Abacus will be able to lead us to the promised land. People still want a viable alternative. You know what Doon, this is where Farage and the Brexit party come into play. The longer Bojo, Karankie and Corbyn spout there drivel. The more chance Farage and the Brexit party has of ripping the political mainstream shower of shit apart. 
Mock to your hearts content, but whilst the Torys have been doing sod all and damaging this country, Krankie and Corbyn have won over zero floating voters.


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## SocketRocket (Jul 23, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If you know anything about what Burns was writing about, then you'll know that he wrote these words to apply to every single one of us - not just the louse he was looking at or any single person or group of individuals...

And you'll also know that in _'A Man's a Man for A' That'_  Burns was very much aiming his barbed verse at a certain type of individual.
		
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No it doesn't.   Do you see yourself as others see you?  I think not.   You could aim the same arrow at me but that would suggest Burns wasnt applying it to  every one of us.


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## Hobbit (Jul 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If you know anything about what Burns was writing about, then you'll know that he wrote these words to apply to every single one of us - not just the louse he was looking at or any single person or group of individuals...

And you'll also know that in _'A Man's a Man for A' That'_  Burns was very much aiming his barbed verse at a certain type of individual.
		
Click to expand...

Did he aim it at a certain type, or did he use the certain type as an example of what has little worth? I read it as the only things of true worth are common decency and honesty. Many people apply too much value to the analysis of poetry. Its just a long winded, flowery way of describing something in an often coded way.

Think about it. Burns uses flowery verse to describe something simple. Isn't that ironic? Isn't he guilty of being what he decries? I'd like to think its a backhanded poke for fun.

As for using Burns as a moral compass... Burns' own moral compass around women was well skewed.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Did he aim it at a certain type, or did he use the certain type as an example of what has little worth? I read it as the only things of true worth are common decency and honesty. Many people apply too much value to the analysis of poetry. Its just a long winded, flowery way of describing something in an often coded way.

Think about it. Burns uses flowery verse to describe something simple. Isn't that ironic? Isn't he guilty of being what he decries? I'd like to think its a backhanded poke for fun.

As for using Burns as a moral compass... *Burns' own moral compass around women was well skewed.[/*QUOTE]

He would enjoy watching love island ðŸ˜‚
		
Click to expand...


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 24, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			You know what Doon, your shock, and suprise plus enjoyment re Bojo becoming PM is not a suprise. Fortunately for me I am a floating voter. I have no alliance or allegiance to any party what so ever. I am entertained by those that support either the Tories, Labour or SNP and others. It more than amuses me that people actually think the sun shines out of the leaders of those partys Arses. They are so blinkered that they think Bojo, Corbyn ( God help me) Krankie etc is the answer to our prayers.
People like me, floating voters, people that are thick as pig shit ( like the gammon link Kelly ðŸ˜˜) Brexiteers or remainers. They want a genuine alternative, To the shower of shit politics we now have. Hardcore Tories think Bojo is the dream ticket. The same Tory clowns that thought the same of Cameron and May. Even worse, Labour think Corbyn and Abacus will be able to lead us to the promised land. People still want a viable alternative. You know what Doon, this is where Farage and the Brexit party come into play. The longer Bojo, Karankie and Corbyn spout there drivel. The more chance Farage and the Brexit party has of ripping the political mainstream shower of shit apart.
Mock to your hearts content, but whilst the Torys have been doing sod all and damaging this country, Krankie and Corbyn have won over zero floating voters.
		
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You are miles off the mark there Taffy.........support for Scottish independence is soaring.
You are making the common mistake of thinking that only SNP supporters support Scottish Independence.


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## Tashyboy (Jul 24, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You are miles off the mark there Taffy.........support for Scottish independence is soaring.
You are making the common mistake of thinking that only SNP supporters support Scottish Independence.
		
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Seeing as theres no tory voters in Scotland i would surmise they have gone to the SNP. 
HMMM BOJO voters infiltrate the SNP. So we agree on something. 
Plus who mentioned independence. ðŸ¤”
Doon serious question. Do you think that most people in England, Wales etc are actually bothered if
Scotland go it alone. I wish them well if they actually get the majority of people to vote for it.


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## robinthehood (Jul 27, 2019)

SocketRocket said:



			Come on then, where have I supported Boris?  I challenge you to show where or apologise.
		
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Oof.


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## chrisd (Jul 27, 2019)

Tashyboy said:



			Doon serious question. Do you think that most people in England, Wales etc are actually bothered if
Scotland go it alone. I wish them well if they actually get the majority of people to vote for it.
		
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I don't think many cared at the last vote, I certainly dont think many will do if they vote again and I absolutely think that most forum members, brassed off with Doons postings, would would welcome it ðŸ¤—


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## Fade and Die (Jul 27, 2019)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You are miles off the mark there Taffy.........support for Scottish independence is soaring.
You are making the common mistake of thinking that only SNP supporters support Scottish Independence.
		
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You may have a point there Doon, I was chatting to a large group at the local Bowls club on Wednesday and I think they were ALL in favour of it! ðŸ¤”


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 23, 2019)

I find myself wondering what is was that meant Jeremy Hunt and such as Rory Stewart could not commit to taking UK out on 31st October - I know - Hunt and Stewart were honest and did not wish to deceive on this.

Why was Johnson able to commit to taking us out on 31st October - because he wasnâ€™t and isnâ€™t.  And sure enough that commitment by Johnson was what got rid of Stewart and made sure he defeated Hunt.  And he got what he always wanted - to be the big cheese in #10.

They all equally well knew the risks around 31st October - some were able to be honest about them - at least one other wasnâ€™t.


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## Old Skier (Oct 23, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			You may have a point there Doon, I was chatting to a large group at the local Bowls club on Wednesday and I think they were ALL in favour of it! ðŸ¤”
		
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Unfortunately your bowls club might be disappointed along with Doom https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...ters-switching-to-support-the-union-1-5030614


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## Old Skier (Oct 23, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I find myself wondering what is was that meant Jeremy Hunt and such as Rory Stewart could not commit to taking UK out on 31st October - I know - Hunt and Stewart were honest and did not wish to deceive on this.

Why was Johnson able to commit to taking us out on 31st October - because he wasnâ€™t and isnâ€™t.  And sure enough that commitment by Johnson was what got rid of Stewart and made sure he defeated Hunt.  And he got what he always wanted - to be the big cheese in #10.

They all equally well knew the risks around 31st October - some were able to be honest about them - at least one other wasnâ€™t.
		
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Hunt voted with the government, what gives you the impression he didn't.


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## Fade and Die (Oct 23, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Unfortunately your bowls club might be disappointed along with Doom https://www.scotsman.com/news/polit...ters-switching-to-support-the-union-1-5030614

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Give it a couple of minutes and Doon will be along to tell us why thatâ€™s all wrong (ðŸ˜ of course)


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## Old Skier (Oct 23, 2019)

Fade and Die said:



			Give it a couple of minutes and Doon will be along to tell us why thatâ€™s all wrong (ðŸ˜ of course)
		
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Doom has suggested on a couple of threads lies about polls but he does subscribe to a dubious blog.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2019)

Old Skier said:



			Hunt voted with the government, what gives you the impression he didn't.
		
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In the Tory Party Leadership campaign Hunt and Stewart continually refused to commit to taking the UK out of the EU on 31st October.  When Hunt was H2H against Johnson, Hunt maintained that position - saying that it was 'ludicrous' (my word) to make such a commitment when a deal could be within days or weeks of being agreed and/or signed off by parliament on the 31st October.  That Johnson was adamant (no ifs, no buts) that UK would leave the EU on 31st October certainly did for Stewart, and was used by Johnson as key criticism of Hunt, and the Tory Party lapped it up. And so we got the leader we have - the leader that told us that absolutely nothing would prevent him taking us out on 31st October.


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## Dando (Oct 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In the Tory Party Leadership campaign Hunt and Stewart continually refused to commit to taking the UK out of the EU on 31st October.  When Hunt was H2H against Johnson, Hunt maintained that position - saying that it was 'ludicrous' (my word) to make such a commitment when a deal could be within days or weeks of being agreed and/or signed off by parliament on the 31st October.  That Johnson was adamant (no ifs, no buts) that UK would leave the EU on 31st October certainly did for Stewart, and was used by Johnson as key criticism of Hunt, and the Tory Party lapped it up. And so we got the leader we have - the leader that told us that absolutely nothing would prevent him taking us out on 31st October.
		
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why put your own word in rather than use the words that were actually said?


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## Hobbit (Oct 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In the Tory Party Leadership campaign Hunt and Stewart continually refused to commit to taking the UK out of the EU on 31st October.  When Hunt was H2H against Johnson, Hunt maintained that position - saying that it was 'ludicrous' (my word) to make such a commitment when a deal could be within days or weeks of being agreed and/or signed off by parliament on the 31st October.  That Johnson was adamant (no ifs, no buts) that UK would leave the EU on 31st October certainly did for Stewart, and was used by Johnson as key criticism of Hunt, and the Tory Party lapped it up. And so we got the leader we have - the leader that told us that absolutely nothing would prevent him taking us out on 31st October.
		
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I think you show your naivety in negotiating there. Why say we want the 31st Oct but then say if you can't make that date we are willing to budge? As much as I detest Johnson I will grudgingly admit he's played a blinder throughout the negotiations.

First of all, the EU said they wouldn't open the WA and the backstop was not open for change. Guess what? He got the EU to do both by playing hard ball. Whatever rubbish you care to spout about the negotiations you cannot hide from the fact that in 85 days Johnson got the EU to shift their position by some margin. 

What has been even more remarkable in the last couple of days is Tusk has asked the EU 27 to consider an extension to Jan 31st. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to recognise that the EU are starting to feel the squeeze. They want an extension even though Boris doesn't. Who's blinked now? What a bunch of spineless wimps the majority of parliament is. I wonder who is the sycophantic Wormtongue now, Cummings or a whole host of MP's?

I hate to say it but well done Boris. And to you, neh neh ne neh ner.  For all your shouting, you got it way wrong.


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## patricks148 (Oct 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think you show your naivety in negotiating there. Why say we want the 31st Oct but then say if you can't make that date we are willing to budge? As much as I detest Johnson I will grudgingly admit he's played a blinder throughout the negotiations.

First of all, the EU said they wouldn't open the WA and the backstop was not open for change. Guess what? He got the EU to do both by playing hard ball. Whatever rubbish you care to spout about the negotiations you cannot hide from the fact that in 85 days Johnson got the EU to shift their position by some margin.

What has been even more remarkable in the last couple of days is Tusk has asked the EU 27 to consider an extension to Jan 31st. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to recognise that the EU are starting to feel the squeeze. They want an extension even though Boris doesn't. Who's blinked now? What a bunch of spineless wimps the majority of parliament is. I wonder who is the sycophantic Wormtongue now, Cummings or a whole host of MP's?

I hate to say it but well done Boris. And to you, neh neh ne neh ner.  For all your shouting, you got it way wrong.
		
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lets not forget the currency traders and hedge fund managers who are all going to make a killing if we leave on the 31st without a deal... well done Boris


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think you show your naivety in negotiating there. Why say we want the 31st Oct but then say if you can't make that date we are willing to budge? As much as I detest Johnson I will grudgingly admit he's played a blinder throughout the negotiations.

First of all, the EU said they wouldn't open the WA and the backstop was not open for change. Guess what? He got the EU to do both by playing hard ball. Whatever rubbish you care to spout about the negotiations you cannot hide from the fact that in 85 days Johnson got the EU to shift their position by some margin.

What has been even more remarkable in the last couple of days is Tusk has asked the EU 27 to consider an extension to Jan 31st. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to recognise that the EU are starting to feel the squeeze. They want an extension even though Boris doesn't. Who's blinked now? What a bunch of spineless wimps the majority of parliament is. I wonder who is the sycophantic Wormtongue now, Cummings or a whole host of MP's?

I hate to say it but well done Boris. And to you, neh neh ne neh ner.  For all your shouting, you got it way wrong.
		
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Unless of course all Boris has done is given the EU a better deal!

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/p...e-put-a-border-in-the-irish-sea-1-9110754/amp


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## Hobbit (Oct 24, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			lets not forget the currency traders and hedge fund managers who are all going to make a killing if we leave on the 31st without a deal... well done Boris

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They'll be the same currency traders that have been buying at around â‚¬1.10 and â‚¬1.15, and would be selling around â‚¬1.06 - â‚¬1.08...


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## Hobbit (Oct 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Unless of course all Boris has done is given the EU a better deal!

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/p...e-put-a-border-in-the-irish-sea-1-9110754/amp

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Has he?  And what are those better terms


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			I think you show your naivety in negotiating there. Why say we want the 31st Oct but then say if you can't make that date we are willing to budge? As much as I detest Johnson I will grudgingly admit he's played a blinder throughout the negotiations.

*First of all, the EU said they wouldn't open the WA and the backstop was not open for change.* Guess what? He got the EU to do both by playing hard ball. Whatever rubbish you care to spout about the negotiations you cannot hide from the fact that in 85 days Johnson got the EU to shift their position by some margin.

What has been even more remarkable in the last couple of days is Tusk has asked the EU 27 to consider an extension to Jan 31st. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to recognise that the EU are starting to feel the squeeze. They want an extension even though Boris doesn't. Who's blinked now? What a bunch of spineless wimps the majority of parliament is. I wonder who is the sycophantic Wormtongue now, Cummings or a whole host of MP's?

I hate to say it but well done Boris. And to you, neh neh ne neh ner.  For all your shouting, you got it way wrong.
		
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And some might say that Johnson said he'd not negotiate with the EU until the they removed the backstop completely.  Now of course that might have been the order of things - but it might not have been  

And as far as the deal...well yes - he has got a deal - and so did May.  But was it because of his taking a hard line - or was it partly also because he simply went back to almost the same point the EU started at - with a border between NI and rUK.  And because he did that the EU were able to move in other areas - and who knows - they might well have done that at the outset had May not said No over that border.  Besides - this great new deal is all very well and good (if indeed it is) unless you are a British or NI/Scottish Unionist/Loyalist.


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## patricks148 (Oct 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			They'll be the same currency traders that have been buying at around â‚¬1.10 and â‚¬1.15, and would be selling around â‚¬1.06 - â‚¬1.08...

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no not those ones the good (or bad) ones


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## Hobbit (Oct 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And some might say that Johnson said he'd not negotiate with the EU until the they removed the backstop completely.  Now of course that might have been the order of things - but it might not have been  

And as far as the deal...well yes - he has got a deal - and so did May.  But was it because of his taking a hard line - or was it partly also because he simply went back to almost the same point the EU started at - with a border between NI and rUK.  And because he did that the EU were able to move in other areas - and who knows - they might well have done that at the outset had May not said No over that border.  Besides - this great new deal is all very well and good (if indeed it is) unless you are a British or NI/Scottish Unionist/Loyalist.
		
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You still don't get it. Johnson set an extreme hard line, "he would not negotiate until..." just as the EU said they wouldn't reopen the deal. Both sides start far apart and meet somewhere in the middle.

C'mon Hugh, its not hard. You say you want a 10% pay rise and the bosses say you're getting 5%. After arguing the toss about it, you settle for 7.5%. Surely you've seen enough of that in your 50-odd years to know how it works?

What the rest of the deal looks like I haven't got a clue. I just can't be bothered reading it. After Westminster has finished with amending it in the next couple of weeks/months it won't look like it does today.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 24, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Has he?  And what are those better terms

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Thatâ€™s exactly the issue isnâ€™t it, have they folded because of him or have they folded because he offered things May stated were red lines?
Some commentators still saying itâ€™s BRINO.


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## Hobbit (Oct 24, 2019)

pauldj42 said:



			Thatâ€™s exactly the issue isnâ€™t it, have they folded because of him or have they folded because he offered things May stated were red lines?
Some commentators still saying itâ€™s BRINO.
		
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Or have they folded? I don't doubt they've met somewhere in the middle. It won't be a full on hard Brexit but where it sits and what comes the UK's way, who knows. But here's a thought, so many Remainers argued for a compromise deal, and now Johnson has got something that concedes some things its still not good enough.

The reality appears to be that many Remainers who argued for compromise were being disingenuous and actually wanted a full on Remain. In effect, the very thing Remainers accused Leavers of, i.e. of not considering them, they themselves are now guilty of.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 24, 2019)

As a leav


Hobbit said:



			Or have they folded? I don't doubt they've met somewhere in the middle. It won't be a full on hard Brexit but where it sits and what comes the UK's way, who knows. But here's a thought, so many Remainers argued for a compromise deal, and now Johnson has got something that concedes some things its still not good enough.

The reality appears to be that many Remainers who argued for compromise were being disingenuous and actually wanted a full on Remain. In effect, the very thing Remainers accused Leavers of, i.e. of not considering them, they themselves are now guilty of.
		
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As a leaver Iâ€™m happy with any deal, it takes the crashing out fears away, the proper negotiations can then happen over the following years.
There was never going to be a deal that satisfied everyone.

Like you, I donâ€™t trust Johnson, but possibly unlike you, I never will,

Instead of being grown up and riding on the success of getting â€œa dealâ€ heâ€™s now paused the Bill, imo, he should of made a statement about his failure to meet the 31st Oct deadline, he could of blamed everyone else, asked the EU for the so called â€œflextensionâ€ and then said he will get us out asap.
This 31st or nothing is ridiculous, if the deal is the right one, why does it matter if it takes a few more weeks, he could of stolen the high ground.


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 24, 2019)

Well it won't be Ruth Davidson now as she has just taken on a 4th job. A political lobbyist, whilst still drawing her pay as an MSP.
I think it is called the Tory way.
Probably will not be spending much time with her new baby now after all.


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