# Turn vs Slide



## One Planer (Sep 10, 2013)

Simple question today for the in house experts, specifically with relation to the downswing and weight shift.

We all agree that moving the weight forward to start the downswing is a key part of making solid contact and staying on plane.

The queston: 

What is considered the correct way to start the weight transfer at the begining of the downswing? 

Slide or rotate?

Does it matter?

Does one suit one kind of player, that the other wouldn't?

Does flexability play a factor?

Over to you guys.


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## guest100718 (Sep 10, 2013)

Gareth said:



			Simple question today for the in house experts, specifically with relation to the downswing and weight shift.

We all agree that moving the weight forward to start the downswing is a key part of making solid contact and staying on plane.

The queston: 

What is considered the correct way to start the weight transfer at the begining of the downswing? 

Slide or rotate?

Does it matter?

Does one suit one kind of player, that the other wouldn't?

Does flexability play a factor?

Over to you guys.
		
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Lateral slide is something that plagues me. Take a front on look at the PGA guys and see how centred they are.


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## One Planer (Sep 10, 2013)

guest100718 said:



*Lateral slide is something that plagues me*. Take a front on look at the PGA guys and see how centred they are.
		
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In the back swing or down swing?

I'm specifically questoning downswing.

Check out these videos (Schwartzel and Donald)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swCYoF9b9PI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08rpqW2Z9Vw

Watch their hip action (rotation) as they start the downswing.


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## AmandaJR (Sep 10, 2013)

No expert BUT my coach (who is) suggests it's lateral (left hip bump) then rotate - so almost as if the left hip has an l-shaped movement from the top. So towards target first then rotatation - the latter happens naturally somewhat with the momentum of the swing. I think rotation first puts the right hip where the arms need to be?


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## One Planer (Sep 10, 2013)

AmandaJR said:



			No expert BUT my coach (who is) suggests it's lateral (left hip bump) then rotate - so almost as if the left hip has an l-shaped movement from the top. So towards target first then rotatation - the latter happens naturally somewhat with the momentum of the swing. I think rotation first puts the right hip where the arms need to be?
		
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The way I'm starting to understand it Amanda is that if I slide my weight forward and allow my hips to clear, I run short of space.

If I rotate my weight forward, not staying on my right foot but turining on to my left side, the club falls in front of me, instead of my right elbow running short of space and into my right side. 

Hence my question.


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## AmandaJR (Sep 10, 2013)

Where's James when you need him


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## fundy (Sep 10, 2013)

Turn not slide for me. Big achilles heel for me is due to lack of trust of my left knee rather than rotating over it I tend to get a bit too much lateral slide and not enough turn. Not such a problem with a short iron but the longer the clubs get the more it becomes an issue, weight too far ahead and body shut off leads to the shot being smothered and can often find yourself struggling to square the clubface leading to the inevitable overuse of the hands and flipping of the clubface to try and compensate


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## Pin-seeker (Sep 10, 2013)

AmandaJR said:



			Where's James when you need him 

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He'll be spending quality time with GIBBO


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## G1BB0 (Sep 10, 2013)

oi!


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## One Planer (Sep 10, 2013)

G1BB0 said:



			oi! 

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Can you walk properly yet Steve?


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## G1BB0 (Sep 10, 2013)

I was fine on Monday, was only a few aches Sunday tbh. Certainly highlighted my lack of flexibility and core strength, something I intend working on over the winter


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## USER1999 (Sep 10, 2013)

AmandaJR said:



			Where's James when you need him 

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Need? Need? 

Be careful what you ask for!


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## One Planer (Sep 11, 2013)

Looking at it another way. 

If you make a move off the ball in the take away and backswing you, effectivley, have to make that some move forward, and more to get back to the ball and make good contact(?).

What if you don't make a big move off the ball? I stay pretty centred over the ball in my back swing and I have only move fractionally off the ball when I've reached the top of my back swing.

_If_ in my situation I were to slide instead of turn, I would, effectively, be moving the ball back(?).

The way I see it, with me not making a big movement off the ball, I have no need to slide my weight left. I can effectively move my weight by turning onto my left hand side. 

Does that make sense?


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## JustOne (Sep 11, 2013)

^
^
^
Depends how much spine tilt you have at address (basically what your upper body is doing when you DON'T move off the ball).

You must have some secondary axis tilt (spine tilt away from the target) at impact to shallow out the swing and to stop early release/flipping. So you have to create at least SOME.

The answer to the question is that you have BOTH but only the amount you need to get to the impact positon, someone with a high arm swing plane would need less slide and more turn, someone who is flatter would need more slide, it's a blend. Some have 2 inches of hip slide and some have 6, they all have rotation. Understanding the direction of the slide is important because it's NOT sideways, it's a little bit back to your left because it's BLENDING with your turn.


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## One Planer (Sep 11, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Understanding the direction of the slide is important because it's NOT sideways, it's a little bit back to your left because it's BLENDING with your turn.
		
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Would that mean you're effectivley moving your weight left and behind you (... With the left hip clearing)?


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## JustOne (Sep 11, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			Need? Need? 

Be careful what you ask for!
		
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Damn! I was on trainline.com booking a ticket to Cambs when you posed that! :angry:


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## JustOne (Sep 11, 2013)

Gareth said:



			Would that mean you're effectivley moving your weight left and behind you (... With the left hip clearing)?
		
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Yes.

If you consider someone with early extension their hips effectively thrust forwards towards the ball so the left hip is never going to clear, it doesn't matter that they then rotate, their left hip never cleared so often their weight is actually moving towards the ball (and some even step forwards after the strike).


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## One Planer (Sep 11, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Yes.

If you consider someone with early extension their hips effectively thrust forwards towards the ball so the left hip is never going to clear, it doesn't matter that they then rotate, their left hip never cleared so often their weight is actually moving towards the ball (and some even step forwards after the strike).
		
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Gotcha :thup:


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## JustOne (Sep 11, 2013)

This makes me laugh....

Video 1:

[video=youtube;esEBM5ZKs-U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esEBM5ZKs-U[/video]


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## JustOne (Sep 11, 2013)

Video 2:

[video=youtube;MNmIZvAqEgc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNmIZvAqEgc[/video]

 Instruction... don't ya love it!!!


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## Foxholer (Sep 11, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Yes.

If you consider someone with early extension their hips effectively thrust forwards towards the ball so the left hip is never going to clear, it doesn't matter that they then rotate, their left hip never cleared so often their weight is actually moving towards the ball (and some even step forwards after the strike).
		
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Surely moving the overall balance backwards (behind you in Gareth's post) is just as bad - though less common.

*Overall* balance in that axis (right angle to target) shouldn't really change - the hip movement shifting about as much weight backwards as has been/is being moved forwards by the down-swing.

A weight shift backwards would require a flail - moving upper body/weight forward - to actually hit the ball

Neither 'instruction' is certainly not advocating moving weight backwards!


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## JustOne (Sep 11, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Surely moving the overall balance backwards is just as bad - though less common.

*Overall* balance in that axis (right angle to target) shouldn't really change - the hip movement shifting about as much weight backwards as has been/is being moved forwards by the down-swing.

A weight shift backwards would require a flail - moving upper body/weight forward - to actually hit the ball

Neither 'instruction' is certainly not advocating moving weight backwards!
		
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try this....

Stand with your back/bum to a wall, raise your right leg.... and stand on your left HEEL.


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## Foxholer (Sep 11, 2013)

JustOne said:



			try this....

Stand with your back/bum to a wall, raise your right leg.... and stand on your left HEEL.
		
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Done that.

What does that prove?


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## JustOne (Sep 11, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Done that.

What does that prove?
		
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You fall forwards because your balance point has moved. To stay balanced we have to position our weight evenly over the balance point, the balance point has moved so our weight also does. It's not much but it definitely moves backwards or else we'll fall forwards as that test shows. In a thread where we're discussing 2 inches of hip slide then a 1 or 2 inch weight shift is just as relevant.

Our weight starts on the balls of our feet but it certainly doesn't end up there, if it's on the left heel then the weight has moved AWAY from the target line.


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## Foxholer (Sep 11, 2013)

JustOne said:



			You fall forwards because your balance point has moved. To stay balanced we have to position our weight evenly over the balance point, the balance point has moved so our weight also does. It's not much but it definitely moves backwards or else we'll fall forwards as that test shows. In a thread where we're discussing 2 inches of hip slide then a 1 or 2 inch weight shift is just as relevant.

Our weight starts on the balls of our feet but it certainly doesn't end up there, if it's on the left heel then the weight has moved AWAY from the target line.
		
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Fair enough.

I think the words 'behind you' are the problem.

Notwithstanding the fact that it is impossible to do so - think about that - I think 'slightly onto the left heel' would be better. 

An obvious sign of a Cricket based golf swing is the Drive where the weight moves forward and out - to start a run!

Btw. Your statement about balance points and weight is rubbish!


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## JustOne (Sep 11, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Fair enough.

Btw. Your statement about balance points and weight is rubbish!
		
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Indeed. I couldn't think of another way to describe the concept of 'stacking' or standing directly over your balance point (where most of your weight will be focused)


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## Foxholer (Sep 11, 2013)

JustOne said:



			You fall forwards because your balance point has moved. To stay balanced we have to position our weight evenly over the balance point, the balance point has moved so our weight also does. It's not much but it definitely moves backwards or else we'll fall forwards as that test shows. In a thread where we're discussing 2 inches of hip slide then a 1 or 2 inch weight shift is just as relevant.

Our weight starts on the balls of our feet but it certainly doesn't end up there, if it's on the left heel then the weight has moved AWAY from the target line.
		
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JustOne said:



			Indeed. I couldn't think of another way to describe the concept of 'stacking' or standing directly over your balance point (where most of your weight will be focused)
		
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The concept of balance points is fine, provided it's about where you are and where you want to be. - therefore how you get there.

But to say that a balance point has moved so the weight has to follow to stay balanced is rubbish. It's always the body that moves! And the body can support, to a certain extent, an incorrect balance by using muscles to pull back against the tendency to topple and, more efficiently, the feet as a brace. That effect is unconscious, but can be demonstrated using the air-filled balance pads - which remove the effect of the feet. In fact, I seem to remember GolfGuru using them to help someone cure their EE!

You only fall forwards because you have moved your body (therefore balance point) sufficiently that muscle strength and bracing cannot support the offset.

I'd suggest you describe address, top of back-swing and impact position balance points and the best way of getting from one to the other.

One other thing. The unconscious brain is smart - but not very forward thinking. If it determines that an adjustment needs to happen, it generally uses the most efficient method to solve the immediate problem. That might not be the correct thing to do in the overall scheme of things - and it may have to make another adjustment to correct the consequences of its first one. I believe 'muscle memory' is really about overcoming the unconscious brain's adjustment reaction.


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## JustOne (Sep 11, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			But to say that a balance point has moved so the weight has to follow to stay balanced is rubbish. It's always the body that moves!
		
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I thought I *was* saying that the body moves, then you interjected with your contribution....

Gareth said.. "_Would that mean you're effectivley moving your weight left and behind you_"
To which I replied.. "_Yes_"

... and that's when you stepped in


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## Foxholer (Sep 11, 2013)

JustOne said:



			I thought I *was* saying that the body moves,
		
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Here's the bit that's rubbish!



JustOne said:



			To stay balanced we have to position our weight evenly over the balance point, the balance point has moved so our weight also does.
		
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If you can explain how it's possible to move a balance point without moving weight, you've probably invented teleporting!

Cause/Effect really, but important all the same.


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## JustOne (Sep 11, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Cause/Effect really, but important all the same.
		
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Indeed and I agree I should have said it the other way round,... the weight is shifting so we find a new balance point.

As I said, I thought that's what I was saying until you jumped in :ears:




I was trying to explain it as you would to a child, so that everyone understands it.... that's how I write all of my posts!!!!   :clap::clap::clap::clap: LOLOL


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## Foxholer (Sep 11, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Indeed and I agree I should have said it the other way round,... the weight is shifting so we find a new balance point.

As I said, I thought that's what I was saying until you jumped in :ears:

I was trying to explain it as you would to a child, so that everyone understands it.... that's how I write all of my posts!!!!   :clap::clap::clap::clap: LOLOL
		
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Even more important to get the words correct then.

Here's an interesting article/ad that indicates where the weight should be at the key stages.

Doesn't mention being on the heels at impact or follow through that you imply should happen either (the 1 or 2 inch move). Again mentions the (im)balance pads.

http://www.scienceandmotion.com/download/BalanceLab/BalanceLabPresentation.pdf

PS. What age were your kids aware of 'interjection'?


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## JustOne (Sep 11, 2013)

Thanks, I've read that before.

I was just saying to someone "Watch Foxy come back with some force plate data...." :rofl:

Here's a snippet from a page you probably skipped on Google...




			If you really want to develop power, you need to transfer your weight properly. Computerized testing of elite players shows they each produce the same weight-transfer pattern, moving it toward the front of the left foot as they start the downswing and *to the left heel at impact*.

This ideal weight shift allows these players to deliver the clubhead squarely into the ball at impact as they rotate powerfully around the front foot.

*Many amateurs mistakenly slide their hips too much toward the target in an effort to shift their weight, but this inhibits their ability to rotate, leading to inconsistent ball striking*. By allowing your weight to move initially toward your left toes and then into your left heel, you'll be in position to correctly pivot around your left leg and flush it every time.
		
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There is some other force plate data out there which shows more weight in the left heel at impact and thru to the finish than that advert thingy you posted, and I'm sure I could find lots of pictures with golfers having their left toes off the ground as they pose their 'finish'.

If you want to tell people they should slide their hips towards the target feel free to :thup:



EDIT: 

And.... seeing as you're in the 'splitting hairs mode'... force plates are pressure not weight


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## Foxholer (Sep 11, 2013)

JustOne said:



			And.... seeing as you're in the 'splitting hairs mode'... force plates are pressure not weight 

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Happy to accept that then - my SAM stuff just indicated differently

Better tell the manufacturers, not me, they should be called Pressure Plates then. I'm happy with them being Force Plates as to measure Pressure, they have to they measure Force - Weight being the force!


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## JustOne (Sep 11, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Happy to accept that then - my SAM stuff just indicated differently

Better tell the manufacturers, not me, they should be called Pressure Plates then. I'm happy with them being Force Plates as to measure Pressure, they have to they measure Force - Weight being the force!
		
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Put you your hand flat on a table, press down with your index finger, it's applying more pressure, did your hand just get heavier?

Are we really doing this? :rofl:


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## Foxholer (Sep 12, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Put you your hand flat on a table, press down with your index finger, it's applying more pressure, did your hand just get heavier?

Are we really doing this? :rofl:
		
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Seems like you need to learn some basic Physics.

Yes, more pressure. Now you tell me why!

I'll give you a hint... P = F/A
So to increase pressure you have 2 choices. Increase Force or Decrease Area over which it's applied (or both of course). Which one did you think pressing down with your index finger does.

Is the language simple enough for you? (Or a child! ).


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## JustOne (Sep 12, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Are we really doing this? :rofl:
		
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I guess we are!!! :rofl:

Could you explain in child like language what your point is, or indeed what you're trying to say? the force plates measure a force, they don't measure weight, if you stand on one leg you weigh the SAME as you do on two legs, and if you happen to be on force plates the readings will change... the weight hasn't. But we can change our weight distribution (hold out an arm) or our balance point (again, hold out an arm). We can also apply a muscular force (again this is measured by force plates) so much so that you can press down and make your finger exert a force of 20lbs if you want, your finger, indeed your whole body weight, hasn't increased. We can also use external forces (such as gravity) so when we jump on something eg: on or off a set of scales we apply differing pressure, again our weight hasn't changed, there's lots of stuff going on.

Again, if you want to get people to slide their hips towards the target feel free, other than that (in that I'm completely lost what your point is and whether you're even agreeing or disagreeing with my point), I'm out.

See you in the morning mate :thup: :thup: :thup:


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## Foxholer (Sep 12, 2013)

JustOne said:



			I guess we are!!! :rofl:

Could you explain in child like language what your point is
		
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You had a couple of errors in your explanation of balance points and weight that I pointed out.

You've demonstrated a poor knowledge of the Physics of Force (including Weight) and Pressure.

Otherwise, all good.:thup:

Simple enough?


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## One Planer (Sep 12, 2013)

Back to my question :rofl:

I did a little reading on the subject and, well, opinion is some what divided, espcially on Thesandtrap.

Found this by Tom Watson folating about on t'web




			The transition from backswing to downswing is crucial to generating power and accuracy. The key is to start the downswing with the lower body.

In the best swings the lower body starts forward while the upper body is still turning back. The left hip turns toward the target as the shoulders continue to coil. That takes terrific timing and a lot of practice.

The average golfer should think more about initiating the downswing by rotating the left hip and simultaneously moving to the left heel--this is more pronounced if you've let the heel come off the ground in the backswing (as I recommend). Flaring out your left foot a bit at address will help your hip turn.

Fred Couples is an excellent example of someone who gets the lower body moving before the upper body. His swing is so smooth it's easy to spot.

Also, when you start down, your left shoulder should stay on the plane you established at address. So many amateurs start the downswing by turning the shoulders toward the target too early, causing the dreaded over-the-top move that results in pulls or slices.

Practice starting the downswing in slow motion to get the feel of the lower body leading and the shoulders staying back.
		
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Seems concise.


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## Foxholer (Sep 12, 2013)

Gareth said:



			Seems concise.
		
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I agree - as I did in post 25.

I'd suggest you try to avoid getting obsessed with moving weight around - in either way direction. TW's paragraph starting 'the average golfer...' seems perfect

Here's another reference from a site I find pretty good (if over techy at times) - with a reference to a Shaun Clement (who I can't bear to watch) swing thought that seems a good one for combatting EE.

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/pivot.htm 

It's actually imbedded in this one http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/downswing-original.htm 

Just remember it's 'into the heel' not 'behind you'.


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## One Planer (Sep 12, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			I agree - as I did in post 25.

I'd suggest you try to avoid getting obsessed with moving weight around - in either way direction. TW's paragraph starting 'the average golfer...' seems perfect

Here's another reference from a site I find pretty good (if over techy at times) - with a reference to a Shaun Clement (who I can't bear to watch) swing thought that seems a good one for combatting EE.

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/pivot.htm 

It's actually imbedded in this one http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/downswing-original.htm 

Just remember it's 'into the heel' not 'behind you'.
		
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My weight shift in the back swing, is pretty mininal. I don't 'sway' off the ball very much. If anything about 1/4 a head width  (According to my pro).

With how Tom Watson describes the movement, and after attempting last night, it's very similar to what I was doing. 

If I try and slide my weight forward, I get a very poor hip turn, only just past address. As a result, I run short of space to swing through. This, IMO, causes a throw to try and make space for the club, OTT and a shot that goes left all day. I may be completley wrong, but that's how it 'feels'.

If I focus on rotating my weight forward, as described in the above article, my arms drop nicely into the slot as they have plenty of space. My shoulders at impact are also in a better position (Square/very fractionally open).

I suppose everyone is different depending on, as you say, how much the move away from the ball inthe backswing, and subsequent movement forward.


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## garyinderry (Sep 12, 2013)

[video=youtube;90l5W-au9ME]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90l5W-au9ME[/video]


I cant find the video but its the playing lesson with holly sonders where Louis says he has to get the feeling of his shoulders leading the downswing. otherwise his swing is way out.  

I tried this at the range with the driver the other day with some good results.

my swing starts with the lower half, knees drive, hips spin out and leave the top half way behind.  

I think the above video shows you can play good golf as long as you get the right sequence for you.  id take lee,louis and pauls swing any day over my one. :rofl:


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## Foxholer (Sep 12, 2013)

Gareth said:



			If I focus on rotating my weight forward, as described in the above article, my arms drop nicely into the slot as they have plenty of space. My shoulders at impact are also in a better position (Square/very fractionally open).
		
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That seems the way to do it then!

Though I'd suggest that, once grooved, you forget focusing on that - unless it's wht makes you sing best.

Better, imo, to focus on what you are trying to do with the shot and let the body sort out how, than to concentrate on the mechanics of 'how'. That (fighting the unconscious brain) is a battle that can't be won!


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## One Planer (Sep 12, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			That seems the way to do it then!

Though I'd suggest that, once grooved, you forget focusing on that - unless it's wht makes you sing best.

Better, imo, to focus on what you are trying to do with the shot and let the body sort out how, than to concentrate on the mechanics of 'how'. That (fighting the unconscious brain) is a battle that can't be won!
		
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Possibley so Foxy.

I'm off the the range at lunch to see how th ball flies with this method and, if it indeed, rids me of my bad shot.


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## One Planer (Sep 12, 2013)

Right.

Fresh back from the range, focusing on pretty much rotaing my weight forward, with minimal slide.

Results.

Excellent contact, with a lovely stable flight. Out of 25 balls I only hit 2 of my bad shot (Pull) and 3 pushes.

The rest we'r, pretty much, where I was aiming.

Issue resolved..... For now.


Thank you all for your input on this :thup:


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## JustOne (Sep 12, 2013)

Gareth said:



			Out of 25 balls I only hit 2 of my bad shot (Pull) and 3 pushes.
		
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1 in 5 shots didn't go where you want, that's a 20% miss.... With 14 fairways to hit and 18 'approaches' I've calculated that'll put you off about 14 h/cap   

Ok, I didn't really calculate anything, forum sigs are sooooo handy :rofl:


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## One Planer (Sep 12, 2013)

JustOne said:



			1 in 5 shots didn't go where you want, that's a 20% miss.... With 14 fairways to hit and 18 'approaches' I've calculated that'll put you off about 14 h/cap   

Ok, I didn't really calculate anything, forum sigs are sooooo handy :rofl:
		
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:thup:

Now to find something else to moan about :rofl:


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