# Forward shaft lean / Line of compression arghhh!



## lyden (Aug 29, 2013)

So ive spent a lot of time trying to work this out but no matter what i do i still cant seem to achieve it. Ive had lessons in the past and nothing has helped. I hit the ball very clean most of the time and i create a lot of speed despite the cast but im longing for a lower ball flight that isnt hammered by the wind. Ive posted a video as i could do with some advice, its not quite as easy as lag the clubhead and keep the hands moving through impact as ive found out. Its driving me mad. 

[video=youtube;OP3OxCZx2Y4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OP3OxCZx2Y4&amp;feature=youtube_gdata_player[/video]


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## Foxholer (Aug 29, 2013)

Doesn't look as if you are getting your weight onto your left leg properly. Should be almost 90% and you look as if you've simply returned to address position.

It's not the cast (is there one?) that's the problem. It's the early release/flip that happens after the half-way down point.


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## lyden (Aug 29, 2013)

I suppose i must mean early release. Ive video'd my practice swings and i lag the club head properly and my impact position is spot on however you can see the clubface is open even when im pretending im hitting a ball. So im guessing my early release is a subconcious attempt to square the clubface.


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## sev112 (Aug 29, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Doesn't look as if you are getting your weight onto your left leg properly. Should be almost 90% and you look as if you've simply returned to address position.

It's not the cast (is there one?) that's the problem. It's the early release/flip that happens after the half-way down point.
		
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... Is the right answer
Have a look at your frames from 9oclock to 6oclock
Your left arm is straight and aligned with your shaft at about 7.30, when it needs to be aligned at closer to 5.30
I would have thought with the fall off the back of your mat you would have been transferring your weight naturally


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## One Planer (Aug 29, 2013)

One thing I have noticed in your swing, especially at take away, and the first few feet of the back swing is:

A) You appear to fan the face open in the back swing, opening up the club face. As a result the club face is pointing to the sky at the top of your swing (shut)

And 

B) The club head seems to travel behind you quite a bit making you very flat at the top of your back swing. 

I was exactly the same before I had a series of lessons. 

I know it's not what you asked but I'd worry about getting yourself into a good position at the top, before worrying about your lag.


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## Foxholer (Aug 29, 2013)

lyden said:



			Ive video'd my practice swings and i lag the club head properly and my impact position is spot on
		
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I don't think the impact position is anywhere near right! Yours is pretty near back to address.

Here's a pic that shows the difference.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...4fUpTPIoeS0QWQioDoDQ&ved=0CFEQ9QEwBw&dur=1032

One thing you could do is make sure your wrists work as in the pics. Left/Right are Bent/Flat at address and Flat/Bent at impact

Btw. That ups-lope you are hitting off, if real, is actually not helping either imo. as it's giving a false feeling that you are hitting down (well, less of a flip than in reality) so it ill be worse out on flat grass.


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## garyinderry (Aug 29, 2013)

its something I am working on at the minute.   weight transfer.   as mentioned above, you are not getting off your back leg. it is planted to the ground at and after impact.  the only reason it comes up is because it is attached to your rotating body. 

I have the exact same move.  I don't cast the club like you.   I am extremely flat though 

I like your initial take away.  you could try putting in more shaft lean at address.


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## JustOne (Aug 29, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			I don't think the impact position is anywhere near right! Yours is pretty near back to address.

Here's a pic that shows the difference.

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...4fUpTPIoeS0QWQioDoDQ&ved=0CFEQ9QEwBw&dur=1032

Click to expand...

I agree. The hands need to pass the crotch before impact, however it's a double edged sword because in order for that to happen the right shoulder has to turn down towards the ball more too. Right now you impact in front of the crotch with a high right shoulder - so a poor impact position is actively affecting your turn - and vice versa.


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## Jimbooo (Aug 29, 2013)

lyden said:



			So ive spent a lot of time trying to work this out but no matter what i do i still cant seem to achieve it. Ive had lessons in the past and nothing has helped. I hit the ball very clean most of the time and i create a lot of speed despite the cast but im longing for a lower ball flight that isnt hammered by the wind. Ive posted a video as i could do with some advice, its not quite as easy as lag the clubhead and keep the hands moving through impact as ive found out. Its driving me mad.
		
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Try this: -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlfQ4G97ZxI


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## lyden (Aug 29, 2013)

Cheers all, I'll give your suggestions a go in another 6 hour stint tomorrow and hopefully I'll have a new video with some progress.


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## richy (Aug 30, 2013)

Gareth said:



			One thing I have noticed in your swing, especially at take away, and the first few feet of the back swing is:

*A) You appear to fan the face open in the back swing, opening up the club face. As a result the club face is pointing to the sky at the top of your swing (shut)*

And 

B) The club head seems to travel behind you quite a bit making you very flat at the top of your back swing. 

I was exactly the same before I had a series of lessons. 

I know it's not what you asked but I'd worry about getting yourself into a good position at the top, before worrying about your lag.
		
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That can't be right surely? If you open the club face up on the backswing it has to be open at the top, no?


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## One Planer (Aug 30, 2013)

richy said:



			That can't be right surely? If you open the club face up on the backswing it has to be open at the top, no?
		
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You would think but no. If the club face is pointing up toward the sky the clubface face been opened and is in a closed (shut) position. 

I used to suffer from similar, not because I fanned the face open but because I had an excessively strong grip.

Edit: if the club face were to be returned to the ball, from that position, with no manipulation, it would be open at impact. 

I used to suffer a horrendous block because of it.


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## chrisd (Aug 30, 2013)

Getting the forward lean through impact is why my handicap has recently fallen. I did it by practicing with the right wrist set with a bend and the left wrist flat and concentrated on holding that position as long through impact as I could.

This also may help

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNTe4garihQ&feature=c4-overview&list=UUTwywdg9Sw5xs4wdN-qz7yw


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## garyinderry (Aug 30, 2013)

lyden -  do you take much divots?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2013)

Take a look at this video 'The Right Hand Drill'   It uses the concept of the flying wedge and will hopefully give you something to work on:

[video=youtube;HJTe6me7LTk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJTe6me7LTk[/video]


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## lyden (Aug 30, 2013)

I do take a divot but only a thin top layer, some of the lads a play with  who are pros knock out a slab 2 inches deep. The problem ive had with instructors in the past is they dont really give it a priority because it doesnt cost me any distance. I dont really have a particular miss because its very much dependant on my manipulation of the clubface so i hit roughly 35% draw 20% straight 20% fade the other 25% ranges from hooks to wild balooning slices. Its this 25% thats killing my scores.


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## One Planer (Aug 30, 2013)

lyden said:



			25% ranges from hooks to wild balooning slices. Its this 25% thats killing my scores.
		
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See post #5


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## lyden (Aug 30, 2013)

Gareth said:



			See post #5 

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Ha i did take what you said on and i do certainly fan the club open with a partially cupped wrist at the top. I strapped a plastic ruler to my wrist in an attempt to stop it today but i was having to bend my left arm to keep my wrist flat. Think ill have to leave this kind of work till October when the qualifiers are over and done with.


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## One Planer (Aug 31, 2013)

A simple fix to fanning the club open is to keep the logo of your glove velcro closure pointing at/towards the ball for as long as possible. 

Obviously you can't keep it there all the way to the top, but your movement that opens the face starts, pretty much, as you draw the club back. 

A check point to show you're in the correct position of your wrist is when the shaft is parallel to the floor in the take away, stop, and look at the toe of the club. Specifically where it points. 

It should, roughly mirror your spine angle,  If you fan your wrists, as you do, the toe will point to the sky.


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 31, 2013)

Jimbooo said:



			Try this: -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlfQ4G97ZxI

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How far back has he got the ball in his stance? :mmm:


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## bobmac (Aug 31, 2013)

You are losing your lag which means the club approaches the ball from a very shallow angle like a plane coming in to land.
To improve your lag, you need to increase the angle of attack.
Position a ball 12in behind your target ball and try and hit the target ball without hitting the back ball.
That will increase your angle of attack and therefor your lag. And you'll get bigger divots.

[video=youtube;bJ2oBmW37eY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ2oBmW37eY&list=PL7Uf2W3sfvqYBJ3OUldKvQT7ZWYEmPOyW[/video]


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## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2013)

bobmac said:



			You are losing your lag which means the club approaches the ball from a very shallow angle like a plane coming in to land.
To improve your lag, you need to increase the angle of attack.
Position a ball 12in behind your target ball and try and hit the target ball without hitting the back ball.
That will increase your angle of attack and therefor your lag. And you'll get bigger divots.
		
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Bob,

Seems the way to go - and a very simple and effective drill. Should/could the distance between the balls be reduced after a period?

Does that eliminate the early release? Or simply move it to after impact? And does that matter? Does the body simply adjust in the same way that the head-cover drill forces it to?

Isn't 'increase angle of attack' just another way of saying 'hit down on the ball'? Is that a bit of Pro-speak jargon? The bigger divots are simply the evidence that the change has happened too.


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## bobmac (Aug 31, 2013)

Should/could the distance between the balls be reduced after a period?
		
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For the longer clubs I'd say keep to the 12in. maybe decrease it for the mid irons but certainly no closer than 6in for the wedges




			Does the body simply adjust in the same way that the head-cover drill forces it to?
		
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That's the idea. 
Some would tell the golfer to do this with the left hip and that with the right knee and this with the weight transfer and that with the left elbow and so on and so on.

Hit the front ball, not the back ball is the only thought.

It keeps it simple and the body adapts to a new feeling in order to miss the back ball without trying to piece together 6 swing thoughts in half a second.


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## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2013)

bobmac said:



			That's the idea. 
Some would tell the golfer to do this with the left hip and that with the right knee and this with the weight transfer and that with the left elbow and so on and so on.

Hit the front ball, not the back ball is the only thought.

It keeps it simple and the body adapts to a new feeling in order to miss the back ball without trying to piece together 6 swing thoughts in half a second.
		
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:thup::clap:

That's the sort of practical drill that really appeals to me!

Though I can a bit of a crowded (and dangerous) bay with head-covers and balls all over the place if it goes wrong!


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2013)

bobmac said:



			For the longer clubs I'd say keep to the 12in. maybe decrease it for the mid irons but certainly no closer than 6in for the wedges



That's the idea. 
Some would tell the golfer to do this with the left hip and that with the right knee and this with the weight transfer and that with the left elbow and so on and so on.

Hit the front ball, not the back ball is the only thought.

It keeps it simple and the body adapts to a new feeling in order to miss the back ball without trying to piece together 6 swing thoughts in half a second.
		
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I agree Bob.  Focusing on a task like 'missing the back ball' is a better way of achieving the correct result than focus on lots of body parts that will take care of themselves.

I also like the drill of hitting another ball set three inches or so in front of the struck ball.


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## CMAC (Aug 31, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			I agree Bob.  Focusing on a task like 'missing the back ball' is a better way of achieving the correct result than focus on lots of body parts that will take care of themselves.

*I also like the drill of hitting another ball set three inches or so in front of the struck ball*.
		
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havent seen that one before, what feeling or physical movement is that supposed to impart? (apart from fear for me anyway)


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## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2013)

SocketRocket said:



			I agree Bob.  Focusing on a task like 'missing the back ball' is a better way of achieving the correct result than focus on lots of body parts that will take care of themselves.

I also like the drill of hitting another ball set three inches or so in front of the struck ball.
		
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Add that and the anti-shank one and balls and head-covers definitely will be flying all over the place!

@Darth Finishing the swing/swinging* through* the ball as opposed to* hitting at* the ball!


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2013)

DarthVega said:



			havent seen that one before, what feeling or physical movement is that supposed to impart? (apart from fear for me anyway)
		
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It teaches you to stay down in the shot preventing early extension, it also gives you the correct feel of hitting down and through as to flipping the wrists.  In fact it engrains lots of good things.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Add that and the anti-shank one and balls and head-covers definitely will be flying all over the place!



Click to expand...


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## lyden (Aug 31, 2013)

Bob how long before you would expect me to stop thinning the front ball?


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## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2013)

lyden said:



			Bob how long before you would expect me to stop thinning the front ball?
		
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:rofl:

Progress - of a sort!


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## garyinderry (Aug 31, 2013)

missing that back ball and hitting the front thin sounds quite impressive. 

try foxholer's idea of moving the back ball a little closer.  you will HAVE to come in a little steeper and hit down on it.


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## bobmac (Sep 1, 2013)

missing that back ball and hitting the front thin sounds quite impressive.
		
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You'd have to be a magician to do that


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## lyden (Sep 1, 2013)

Yeah sorry my knowledge of terminology isn't the best I mean blading it on the downswing.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 1, 2013)

DarthVega said:



			havent seen that one before, what feeling or physical movement is that supposed to impart? (apart from fear for me anyway)
		
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Just realised Darth that I never explained this well  (I know, I know! nothing new there).   You have to hit both balls, the one at address and also the one a few inches in front of it.


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## Foxholer (Sep 1, 2013)

lyden said:



			Yeah sorry my knowledge of terminology isn't the best I mean blading it on the downswing.
		
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Make sure that your hips have moved further forward than before. It may be tht you are just adjusting with your arms.

You should feel as if you are hitting down on the target ball. Focus on hitting (down on) the target ball, not voiding the back one.


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## granters (Sep 1, 2013)

this is my bad swing too. The way i get round it is to feel like you're leaving the club behind at the top. Feels pretty strange at first but once you get used to hit your striking improves no end


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## JustOne (Sep 1, 2013)

bobmac said:



			You are losing your lag which means the club approaches the ball from a very shallow angle like a plane coming in to land.
To improve your lag, you need to increase the angle of attack.
		
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Not true.



Angle of attack has nothing to do with lag, you can have plenty of lag and still hit shallow, in fact NOT being steep is far better than being steep.

People who cast are (generally) already steep, so much so that they normally take a divot in the ground behind the ball and subsequently have to stand up (early extend) to stop the club hitting the ground in an attempt to shallow out their descent.

Lag is the angle created by the arms/wrists/club and as such this drill DOES work to an extent in bettering those angles, but the steepness of the attack angle has nothing to do with it. It's a feeling of hitting down that helps you find those angles but you don't actually want to be hitting down (too much) or else you'll have a whole host of other problems.

Players can have attack angles of -1 degree and still has plenty of lag, players like Tom Watson barely graze the grass but he's neither a caster or a flipper. When hitting a driver you can actually hit UP on the ball and still have plenty of lag. Someone with their hands in front of the ball can hit the ball nicely with 0 degrees of descent if they want, there's no need to try and hit into the ground or take 'bigger' divots.

Like I said, angle of attack isn't lag, to say it is is misleading at best. The last thing a player would want is to think they have to hit down at the ground to improve their lag, and be hitting more and more down in an effort to do so, it'll probably destroy their swing.


The drill (if anything) is good for making people understand that you don't want to be 'helping' the ball in the air.



To stop 'scooping' here's the drill......

[video=youtube;ydJZ9bFQQ24]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydJZ9bFQQ24[/video]


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## Foxholer (Sep 1, 2013)

JO,

I think it's merely a (mis-)interpretation of the wording. The lag is being lost - early - and the angle to impact is shallow. The oft used expression 'retain the lag' could be mis-interpreted too. How efficient would the swing be if the lag at half way down was retained until after impact!

And 'hitting down on the ball' is the same. That's what that video's title is and the guy mentions it quite a lot, but it's not (purely) 'hitting down on the ball', just hitting *more* down on the ball - shows where Bob's 'increase the angle of attack' work better.

With a more down on the ball/increased angle of attack I'm pretty certain that the lag will naturally release better - something Bob may have neglected to mention because it simply happens automatically, though I don't want to make assumptions.

Btw. I like the setting up tip in the vid. It seems to me that returning to setup position at impact is a contributor to much of the problem, so if that 'feelage' can be changed, then a better impact will result.


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## JustOne (Sep 1, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			JO,

I think it's merely a (mis-)interpretation of the wording.
		
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Indeed, I agree. I just wanted to point out that lag isn't about angle of attack.

I concede that the video itself is somewhat poorly titled, the idea is to get people not to hit UP at the ball... and the only way to do that is to say that you need to hit DOWN. Hit LEVEL with your hands ahead of the ball would be ideal.

I also agree with you in that I love the setting up tip in video where he says to "address the back ball then hit the front one" as this puts the shaft lean on the club before you start your backswing - very nice.

The angle of attack that he actually hits the ball is irrelevant, it could be 8 degrees down or 0, he will still have lag.


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## bobmac (Sep 1, 2013)

To the OP, this is a comparison between you and Rory MC.
You can see I hope the difference in the angle of the shaft and the right arm which appears to affect the angle of attack.
Work on the drill on my video and you will improve your lag and angle of attack.


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## Foxholer (Sep 1, 2013)

bobmac said:



			To the OP, this is a comparison between you and Rory MC.
		
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There's a serious difference between the orientation of the hips (though that my just be Rory's amazing hip action) and the balance. Rory has most of his weight on the left leg while Lyden seems to have very little - in fact the left heel seems to be coming off the ground


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## bobmac (Sep 1, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			There's a serious difference between the orientation of the hips (though that my just be Rory's amazing hip action) and the balance. Rory has most of his weight on the left leg while Lyden seems to have very little - in fact the left heel seems to be coming off the ground
		
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Thats the whole point of the drill in my video.
Instead of listing all the things the op is doing wrong, the drill fixes them without the OP even needing to know what he was doing wrong.
Hit the front ball.
Simple
4 faults cured with one swing thought.


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## lyden (Sep 1, 2013)

I'll give it some serious practice and see if my angles improve. I put in a few hours a day and my next qualifiers 2 weeks away so no pressure to get it right for a bit.


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## garyinderry (Sep 1, 2013)

I get the feeling you are trying to get the club head down to the ball instead of getting the hands down in front of the ball first.


I think you have the makings of a quality swing there.


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## emery1990 (Sep 1, 2013)

This sounded awfully like my old swing, not to say my new swings better but the inconsistency of the shots. My fault was my take away, which we can't see from your video , I was too flat therefore coming over the top of the ball, making way for a variety if shots, if my wrist action wasn't as it was my instructor said I shouldn't be able to hit any if the balls. With my long irons 4 and 3 this was the case. On top if this I also was not shifting my weight forward allowing me to not hit down. This is clearly the case with your swing. What's your connection like, are you staying connected through out your swing?


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## two-clubs (Sep 2, 2013)

bobmac said:



			Thats the whole point of the drill in my video.
Instead of listing all the things the op is doing wrong, the drill fixes them without the OP even needing to know what he was doing wrong.
Hit the front ball.
Simple
4 faults cured with one swing thought.
		
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I'm definitely going to give this a go as I need a little improvement in this area.

Bob, in the second video posted the guy recommends addressing the rear ball then striking the front ball - would you agree with that?


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## bobmac (Sep 2, 2013)

two-clubs said:



			Bob, in the second video posted the guy recommends addressing the rear ball then striking the front ball - would you agree with that?
		
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Why practice something on the range you wouldn't do on the course?
But if you find it helps, go for it


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## lyden (Sep 2, 2013)

Finally ive made some progress and even though its not technically perfect i can see the light at the end of the tunnel. I recorded a new video and altough im not capable of it everytime i atleast know i can do it, Where as before ive never managed these positions.

[video=youtube;TpVEebOZOoU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpVEebOZOoU&amp;feature=youtu.be[/video]

Thanks for everybodys input.


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## bobmac (Sep 2, 2013)

A big improvement.
Well done :thup:


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## JustOne (Sep 2, 2013)

Here's a picture of you at impact...







Your hands are under your nose - which is wrong, they should be 6 inches past your nose so that the clubshaft is leaning forwards [yellow line]. With your hands more towards the target and the club leaning more forwards it means your right shoulder can keep turning more downwards (it has to or else the club will pass straight over the top of the ball).

Here's a vid.... see how the head stays back, the hands are well forwards (very much in front of the players nose)  and the shoulders keep turning....

[video=youtube;JrDWOrDupuM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrDWOrDupuM[/video]


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2013)

Just One is correct, you are not getting your hands ahead and compressing the ball.   Try to maintain the bend in your right wrist and a flat left wrist.    I know it feels powerful when you uncock the wrists through impact but it leads to all kinds of problems and poor impact conditions, if everything is timed to perfection you can get away with it but that would be in around one in forty swings.


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## Foxholer (Sep 2, 2013)

I agree with JO and Socket, but excellent progress!

Thinking flat left wrist (at impact) is the key imo.


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## lyden (Sep 6, 2013)

So this will be my final post on this subject but just wanted to share my final progress and also a video of where i started for comparison. As far as the results go my ball flights much lower now when i get it right have a nice divot with a lovely back spin sound as it climbs + crack off the clubface. Im not pulling this off on every strike at the moment otherwise id be off to mexico for an original
 sombrero. 

This is where i started back in april.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mPaMcTDRaw&feature=youtu.be

This is me now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIb2JaivDS8&feature=youtu.be

cheers for all your help & advice.


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## One Planer (Sep 6, 2013)

Looks better at impact. 




Looks like its coming along nicely. Well done.


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## JustOne (Sep 6, 2013)

Very good,.... ball a little more forwards, hands a little more forwards and allow the right shoulder to turn down to the ball a little more. Backswing plane looks a LITTLE flat..... but all in all that's very, very good progress :thup:


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## Foxholer (Sep 12, 2013)

bobmac said:



			Thats the whole point of the drill in my video.
Instead of listing all the things the op is doing wrong, the drill fixes them without the OP even needing to know what he was doing wrong.
Hit the front ball.
Simple
4 faults cured with one swing thought.
		
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Tried this on the range today - first proper chance I've had.

After a couple of wobbly ones, it was hugely effective!

Much better contact, nice divot, generally a soft draw (highly unusual for me) and about 15 yards extra carry!

Might become part of the warm-up process from now on!


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## JustOne (Sep 12, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Tried this on the range today - first proper chance I've had.

After a couple of wobbly ones, it was hugely effective!

Much better contact, nice divot, generally a soft draw (highly unusual for me) and about 15 yards extra carry!

Might become part of the warm-up process from now on!
		
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so you weren't swinging properly before?


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## Foxholer (Sep 13, 2013)

JustOne said:



			so you weren't swinging properly before?  




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Not as well as I wanted! One of the simplest areas to improve my scoring.

How are you swinging/scoring?


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## 3righthands (Sep 13, 2013)

If the OP has gone for good good luck to him if he has no form of injury in the next couple of years!

If he's reading heres my take;

Your turn in the takeaway is going to cause you issues, plus hurt your back at some point, you are not getting into a proper position at the top that allows you to ever get the lower body move forward first and the upper body last. 

Also look at your left foot after impact as an indicator of progress...check this video and look at his front foot.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMTMSp7lBAQ

My view is if you try and get the shaft lean its nothing more than a flip as...get the body to create the shaft lean.


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