# Intermittent fasting



## Mudball (Jan 4, 2022)

Anyone given Intermittent fasting a go? Any tips. It’s on my to-do for this year. Can it be combined with cardio + weights?


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## Rooter (Jan 4, 2022)

The annual mudball i need to get fit Thread!

MikeH is a whizz at IF. Its something I have read up on a little, still considering whether to try it, but I am deep into Ironman training, and don't think messing with IF right now is the best idea.

Oh, have a look at reading this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Circadian-...ords=the+circadian+code&qid=1641295544&sr=8-1


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## pokerjoke (Jan 4, 2022)

Are you looking to lose weight 
Are you finding it hard to fit in meals
What is your overall reason for doing IF
I did it for 2 years
Found something that gave better results in 6 months


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2022)

It’s not quite fasting but I’ve done the 5-2 approach and it lost me a couple of stone without too much pain.   I was strict about what I ate on the 5 non-’fasting’ days - pretty much cutting out completely all carbohydrates and most dairy that contributed hugely to the weight loss and to my thinking on my diet and what I eat.  I absolutely get the assertion that a diet is almost a waste of time if at the same time you don’t try and change your thinking.

I‘ve put on maybe half a stone in last 4-5months as I lost some of my discipline, and so I am going to go back onto 5-2 in a couple of weeks time.  I fully expect to get rid of the 7lbs fairly quickly (by end Feb will be target) and I’ll be looking to reset my thinking.


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## Mudball (Jan 4, 2022)

Rooter said:



			The annual mudball i need to get fit Thread!

MikeH is a whizz at IF. Its something I have read up on a little, still considering whether to try it, but I am deep into Ironman training, and don't think messing with IF right now is the best idea.

Oh, have a look at reading this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Circadian-...ords=the+circadian+code&qid=1641295544&sr=8-1

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Funny man..  actually quiet the opposite... Thanks to your advice on SPR, i think i am doing alright.   Cardio a few times a week and now added weights to it.. 
Cant seem to shift weight.  I did lose about 7kg with SPR, but have put it back on.  That is a case of bad diet + Christmas + (dare i say) a bit of muscle mass.  Love handles have nearly disappered!!
@MikeH had a good write up about his routine (some of which i copied). I could not google and find it.  I found his Youtube video.  Havent seen much of his IF piece



pokerjoke said:



			Are you looking to lose weight
Are you finding it hard to fit in meals
What is your overall reason for doing IF
I did it for 2 years
Found something that gave better results in 6 months
		
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Intriguing.  Pl share.

To add to the above point, I did go on a health spree last year.  Besides the physical bit, it was a great way of handling mental stress of WFH.
I was into small portions but 6 of them + plenty of water, exercise etc.  Unfortunately, we had a situation of having 2 kitchens. One for me doing the good (but slightly bland) stuff, while the others continuing as usual.

Unfortunately, later in the year, my MIL (who is with us) got diagnosed with cancer.  That kind of threw everything out of the window.  I still do my exercise, but meals/diet is out of the window. Erratic eating & timing.
So my plan for 2022 is 'if I cant control what i can eat, at least i can control how much and when I eat' without having 2 types of diets at home.


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## stefanovic (Jan 4, 2022)

Hard exercise like weight lifting does not take weight off you.
Dieting does not take weight off you.
You are naturally fasting when asleep, so try and get more sleep.
You will still burn calories while sleeping.

Don't get lured into take-aways and eating establishments.
Your brain is there to regulate your metabolism, and not for you to indulge in food.
Never clear your plate.
Miss a meal occasionally.

Commercial interests want you to overeat.
Eat simply.
Help yourself to fast by going for a soft exercise like walking.
Humans did not evolve to walk. They walked to evolve.


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## IanM (Jan 4, 2022)

I did 5-2 and it works... I didn't it from time to time to shift any excess.   Its great for general discipline as you don't go mad on the other days.

I only put about 3 pounds on over Christmas... but will benefit from losing half a stone before the Spring.  Will do that by being sensible and realistic.


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## Foxholer (Jan 4, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			...
*Dieting does not take weight off you.*
...
Don't get lured into take-aways and eating establishments.
Your brain is there to regulate your metabolism, and not for you to indulge in food.
Never clear your plate.
Miss a meal occasionally.
...

Eat simply.
Help yourself to fast by going for a soft exercise like walking....
		
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Then why is almost all the rest of the post about 'Dieting'?


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## stefanovic (Jan 4, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Then why is almost all the rest of the post about 'Dieting'?

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To clarify then, *commercial* diets do not take weight off you in the long term.
That's because all they are after is your money.
They have let down so many people in the past these books should have a 'Beware' notice attached to them.
Instead, try reading I Can Make You Thin by Paul McKenna for more detailed information.

And too many chefs on TV only add to the problem.


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## stefanovic (Jan 4, 2022)

IanM said:



			I did 5-2 and it works... 
I only put about 3 pounds on over Christmas...
		
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Obvious contradiction.


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## Foxholer (Jan 4, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			To clarify then, *commercial* diets do not take weight off you in the long term.
That's because all they are after is your money.
They have let down so many people in the past these books should have a 'Beware' notice attached to them.
Instead, try reading I Can Make You Thin by* Paul McKenna* for more detailed information.

And too many chefs on TV only add to the problem.
		
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You forgot to include his 'Ph D'!  
And at around a tenner for 170-ish pages, I'd suggest he's 'after your money' too!


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## Rooter (Jan 4, 2022)

Just


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## Foxholer (Jan 4, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Obvious contradiction.
		
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How so? I expect to put on at least twice that amount over festive period!
Though I expect to return to 'normal weight' in January once 'normal' activity is resumed.
And, fwiw, I don't specifically diet.


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## IanM (Jan 4, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Obvious contradiction.
		
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Only if you assumed I was doing 5-2 over Christmas...


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## pokerjoke (Jan 4, 2022)

Do you mind me asking your age Mudball.
Pretty obvious really but the older you get the harder it gets,however it can be done by everyone.
Anyone that mentions the word “diet “ is purely talking about short term because in their head they just want to lose weight fast,but so many times the bounce back is worse and they gain more weight.
A lifestyle is what your looking for if your being serious imo because it becomes 2nd nature.
I was 15-2 and started IF and lost a stone in a year but wasn’t 100% on it so it was inconsistent and I plateaued.
I then started to track my Macros and once again started to lose more weight.
All whilst IF I was weight training fairly light but using progressive overload 4 times a week and also cycling 3 times a week for an hour or so-still not 100% clean on the eating.
Did this for 2 years.
For 6 months after plateauing again I took it really serious.
Weights,biking but the main ingredient was tracking my macros,using the formula of 1g of protein per 1lb of weight and 250 calorie deficit,unbelievable gains in a quarter of the time.
Biggest word of all in this is Willpower if you haven’t got it forget it.


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## need_my_wedge (Jan 4, 2022)

My lad does it, although maybe not according to any plan. He doesn't eat between 7pm and and 12pm the next day, never has breakfast, only eats lunch, and evening meal around 18:00. He's skinny as a rake......


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## pokerjoke (Jan 4, 2022)

need_my_wedge said:



			My lad does it, although maybe not according to any plan. He doesn't eat between 7pm and and 12pm the next day, never has breakfast, only eats lunch, and evening meal around 16:00. He's skinny as a rake......
		
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That’s unhealthy


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## pendodave (Jan 4, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			That’s unhealthy
		
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How so?
I'm imagining that through millions of years of human evolution, getting 3 square meals a day has been a pretty unusual phenomenon...
The only timing based advice which seems to make some sense is to avoid eating late in the day, as the stomach is unlikely to digest the food well during sleep.


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## BiMGuy (Jan 4, 2022)

pendodave said:



			How so?
I'm imagining that through millions of years of human evolution, getting 3 square meals a day has been a pretty unusual phenomenon...
The only timing based advice which seems to make some sense is to avoid eating late in the day, as the stomach is unlikely to digest the food well during sleep.
		
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I’m pretty sure most of the food advice we’ve had in the last century has come from the marketing departments of companies who want us to buy their products.


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## hovis (Jan 4, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Hard exercise like weight lifting does not take weight off you.
Dieting does not take weight off you.
		
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Hard exercise in any shape of form and dieting creates a deficit.  That does take the weight off you.    It's like saying driving you car fast doesn't burn more fuel!!!!   Of course it burns more fuel.  The fact you go straight to the petrol station and put it back in is irrelevant.

IIntermittent fasting is excellent if it suits you lifestyle.  Forget all the science because for one study saying one thing you'll find another that says another.

No matter what way you spin it.  Its down to calories in vs calories out.   Personally I get the most success with my clients by switching their diets to high volume low calorie options.  Feeling a bit peckish?   You can have two chicken wraps to one chicken sandwich and alot more volume to keep you fuller for longer.   
Look on YouTube for high volume low calorie food


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## hovis (Jan 4, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			That’s unhealthy
		
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Said who.   Look into it.   If you believe the science there's more benefits than negatives


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## pokerjoke (Jan 4, 2022)

pendodave said:



			How so?
I'm imagining that through millions of years of human evolution, getting 3 square meals a day has been a pretty unusual phenomenon...
The only timing based advice which seems to make some sense is to avoid eating late in the day, as the stomach is unlikely to digest the food well during sleep.
		
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Your post suggests he has 2 meals a day and fasts for 17 hours?
Is that correct?
Obviously I don’t know how old your son is.
Food digesting whilst sleeping will obviously depend on what’s eaten,by your post his last meal would be 4pm?


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## pokerjoke (Jan 4, 2022)

hovis said:



			Said who.   Look into it.   If you believe the science there's more benefits than negatives
		
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If you look into anything it will have pluses and minuses.


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## hovis (Jan 4, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			If you look into anything it will have pluses and minuses.
		
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But you said it was unhealthy.  Said who and how please?


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## pokerjoke (Jan 4, 2022)

hovis said:



			But you said it was unhealthy.  Said who and how please?
		
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And you say it’s healthy 
One of the reasons I don’t usually get involved in these threads is because before long they turn into debates that have run for ever.
If you search the internet there are pros and cons for all aspects of fitness.
Going on the post his son is eating 2 meals a day finishing at around 4.30 and then not eating to midday the following day,to me that’s not healthy to you it is.
Let’s leave it at that because we can go back and forth.
And to be honest whatever his son does it won’t effect me.


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## Mudball (Jan 4, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Do you mind me asking your age Mudball.
Pretty obvious really but the older you get the harder it gets,however it can be done by everyone.
Anyone that mentions the word “diet “ is purely talking about short term because in their head they just want to lose weight fast,but so many times the bounce back is worse and they gain more weight.
A lifestyle is what your looking for if your being serious imo because it becomes 2nd nature.
I was 15-2 and started IF and lost a stone in a year but wasn’t 100% on it so it was inconsistent and I plateaued.
I then started to track my Macros and once again started to lose more weight.
All whilst IF I was weight training fairly light but using progressive overload 4 times a week and also cycling 3 times a week for an hour or so-still not 100% clean on the eating.
Did this for 2 years.
For 6 months after plateauing again I took it really serious.
Weights,biking but the main ingredient was tracking my macros,using the formula of 1g of protein per 1lb of weight and 250 calorie deficit,unbelievable gains in a quarter of the time.
Biggest word of all in this is Willpower if you haven’t got it forget it.
		
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i guess late 40s, but i always tell the ladies I am in my 30s with a tough paper round.  
i agree with lifestyle choice, but dont agree on training/exercise not being relevant.  Last year was a bit of a revelation for me.  Started regular exercise (quick cardio 5 times a week). But when i changed my diet to higher protein-low carbs + 4 Litres of water, it changed a lot of things for me.  It became a part of lifestyle.   Since I cant follow a certain type of diet, I want to see if I can achieve the same with changing the timing of my meals. 

I had a brief look at counting Macros. TBH, I will struggle with such a system. In a week, i might go for curry, then pasta, then fish...  keeping track of this is not my game. Maybe something for next year.

Hoping to keep it simple...   16/8 IF, Water, Exercise (Cardio + Weights).  This way, i am not dependent on anyone else in the family or imposing on them.


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## hovis (Jan 4, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			And you say it’s healthy
One of the reasons I don’t usually get involved in these threads is because before long they turn into debates that have run for ever.
If you search the internet there are pros and cons for all aspects of fitness.
Going on the post his son is eating 2 meals a day finishing at around 4.30 and then not eating to midday the following day,to me that’s not healthy to you it is.
Let’s leave it at that because we can go back and forth.
And to be honest whatever his son does it won’t effect me.
		
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So what you meant to say is, in "your uneducated stab in the dark opinion" intermittent fasting is unhealthy?    I'm not having a dig because I think it's safe to say most people would also share your opinion.   But opinions are not fact.  You stated a fact not your opinion. 
From working in the industry all my life I tend to read studies with a pinch of salt.  However, the ones I do pay attention to is the studies that offer no benefit to industries.  Telling people not to eat doesn't earn anyone any money.  Therefore a study in this area offers more Validity.


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## pokerjoke (Jan 4, 2022)

hovis said:



			So what you meant to say is, in "your uneducated stab in the dark opinion" intermittent fasting is unhealthy?    I'm not having a dig because I think it's safe to say most people would also share your opinion.   But opinions are not fact.  You stated a fact not your opinion.
From working in the industry all my life I tend to read studies with a pinch of salt.  However, the ones I do pay attention to is the studies that offer no benefit to industries.  Telling people not to eat doesn't earn anyone any money.  Therefore a study in this area offers more Validity.
		
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Show me where I said IF is unhealthy?


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## SteveJay (Jan 4, 2022)

As someone who has tried  a few diets over the years, and who struggles with will power to stick to strict diets, I think something like the 5-2 intermittent fasting programme is really helpful. I lost about a stone on it before we had break for xmas.

The big thing for me is that if I know i can eat relatively normally on the day after fasting, I can stick to the plan. If it was a diet where I knew I couldn't eat X or Y anymore, I would struggle. That mindset of knowing its only had for a day, makes a huge difference to someone who has not got the strongest will power.


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## hovis (Jan 4, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			Show me where I said IF is unhealthy?
		
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"That’s unhealthy" 🤣🤣

You literally used these words when replying to someone who was describing IF


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## pokerjoke (Jan 4, 2022)

hovis said:



			"That’s unhealthy" 🤣🤣

You literally used these words when replying to someone who was describing IF
		
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You can use all the cry with emojis you like but I wasn’t referring to IF
I was referring to eating 2 meals a day with 20+ hours in between.
If you read the post he eats lunch at 12 and Tea at 4.
Go back to my previous post I did IF for 2 years so hardly think it’s unhealthy.


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## hovis (Jan 4, 2022)

pokerjoke said:



			You can use all the cry with emojis you like but I wasn’t referring to IF
I was referring to eating 2 meals a day with 20+ hours in between.
If you read the post he eats lunch at 12 and Tea at 4.
Go back to my previous post I did IF for 2 years so hardly think it’s unhealthy.
		
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Yes you where referring to IF.  That is IF.   Exactly that!!!! He eats to a small window.   No doubt you did a 16/8 split.   For the last 8 years I was 18/6.    Eating one meal a day is still intermittent fasting.


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## stefanovic (Jan 5, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			You forgot to include his 'Ph D'! 
And at around a tenner for 170-ish pages, I'd suggest he's 'after your money' too!
		
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I wasn't suggesting you pay full price for it. Your library probably has a copy of I Can Make You Thin and charity shops won't charge you much.
Some good points were made last night on Channel 5's repeat program about diet and exercise.
The one I liked the most concerns our grandparents. They didn't need to count their calories and that was because they weren't overweight.
They ate simple food like wholemeal bread, potatoes, fresh meat and fish.
The program was also critical of 'superfoods', gluten free foods, gyms, weight lifting and HIIT training.

I'd propose there is no such thing as healthy eating.
That is because you have a superstar in your head. It's called the brain, and we still don't know much about it.
Its primary function is to keep you alive by moderating your metabolism. 
You will overload your brain by overeating, so be kind to it. It has a lot of other work to do.


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## Foxholer (Jan 5, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			I wasn't suggesting you pay full price for it. Your library probably has a copy of I Can Make You Thin and charity shops won't charge you much.
Some good points were made last night on Channel 5's repeat program about diet and exercise.
The one I liked the most concerns our grandparents. They didn't need to count their calories and that was because they weren't overweight.
They ate simple food like wholemeal bread, potatoes, fresh meat and fish.
The program was also critical of 'superfoods', gluten free foods, gyms, weight lifting and HIIT training.

I'd propose there is no such thing as healthy eating.
That is because you have a superstar in your head. It's called the brain, and we still don't know much about it.
Its primary function is to keep you alive by moderating your metabolism.
You will overload your brain by overeating, so be kind to it. It has a lot of other work to do.
		
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What a load of twaddle!
You are obviously not eating enough! Or drinking too much!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			I wasn't suggesting you pay full price for it. Your library probably has a copy of I Can Make You Thin and charity shops won't charge you much.
Some good points were made last night on Channel 5's repeat program about diet and exercise.
*The one I liked the most concerns our grandparents. They didn't need to count their calories and that was because they weren't overweight.*
They ate simple food like wholemeal bread, potatoes, fresh meat and fish.
The program was also critical of 'superfoods', gluten free foods, gyms, weight lifting and HIIT training.

I'd propose there is no such thing as healthy eating.
That is because you have a superstar in your head. It's called the brain, and we still don't know much about it.
Its primary function is to keep you alive by moderating your metabolism.
You will overload your brain by overeating, so be kind to it. It has a lot of other work to do.
		
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Because as a whole they were UNDERWEIGHT, Military records have shown men tended to be underweight for their height, as an example.

Heart disease was at it’s highest rates during the 1950’s.

What about nutrient deficiencey?

Yes medication is better now than it’s ever been and has massively helped but the life expectancy of our Grandparents to us has risen by nearly 20 years and some of that is improvement in our diet.


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## stefanovic (Jan 5, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Because as a whole they were UNDERWEIGHT, Military records have shown men tended to be underweight for their height, as an example.
		
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Proving what?
Many men joined the army from poor backgrounds to get 3 meals a day.



			Heart disease was at it’s highest rates during the 1950’s.
		
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There was no treatment for heart attacks then. You were just told to rest.
Now, despite all the help available: Heart Disease Is World's No. 1 Killer - WebMD



			What about nutrient deficiency?
		
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What about nutrient deficiency?
Still happens.



			Yes medication is better now than it’s ever been and has massively helped but the life expectancy of our Grandparents to us has risen by nearly 20 years and some of that is *improvement* in our diet.
		
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Do you mean more processed food, sugar and salt?
Average life expectancy has not actually risen by that much.
Consider Isaac Newton (1642 - 1727). Aged 84.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2022)

stefanovic said:



*Proving what?
Many men joined the army from poor backgrounds to get 3 meals a day.*
So if they hadn’t of joined up what state would of their health been in?

*There was no treatment for heart attacks then. You were just told to rest.*

So why the rise in the 50’s? Surely it should of been dropping with all this healthy lifestyle our grandparents enjoyed!

What about nutrient deficiency?
*Still happens.*
Not on the scale of our Grandparents!

*Average life expectancy has not actually risen by that much.*
Man born in 1900 - Life expectancy, 47yrs
Man born in 1960 - Life expectancy, 66yrs
Over a third increase in just 60yrs! 
Behave yourself

*Consider Isaac Newton (1642 - 1727). Aged 84.*
Irrelevant
		
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See above


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## Foxholer (Jan 6, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			...
Average life expectancy has not actually risen by that much.
Consider Isaac Newton (1642 - 1727). Aged 84.
		
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Sir Isaac Newton could never be described as 'average'!!

Average UK life expectancy M;F 1950 66.4;71.5
Average UK life expectancy M;F 2001 76;80.6
Average UK life expectancy M;F 2011 79;82.8
Average UK life expectancy M;F 2021 82;85 (Projected)

Seems a fairly significant increase to me! 23.5% and 18.9% resp!


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## oleinone (Jan 6, 2022)

Low carb works. Have a look at Sten Ekberg on Youtube - doctor and former olympic athlete.


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## Foxholer (Jan 6, 2022)

oleinone said:



			Low carb works. Have a look at Sten Ekberg on Youtube - doctor and former olympic athlete.
		
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Just imagine how much better he could have been if he'd done it properly!


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## stefanovic (Jan 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Sir Isaac Newton could never be described as 'average'!!
		
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I doubt if he ever did any exercise and would have eaten a limited diet. He locked himself away for long periods.
Reminds me of a neighbour of mine who became a centenarian. I never saw her out jogging or doing yoga and she had simple eating habits.




			Average UK life expectancy M;F 1950 66.4;71.5
Average UK life expectancy M;F 2001 76;80.6
Average UK life expectancy M;F 2011 79;82.8
Average UK life expectancy M;F 2021 82;85 (Projected)
		
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Hardly surprising when you consider the big improvement in heath care since about 1970.
Steroid inhalers for lung conditions from 1970. Radiotherapy for cancer from the 1980's. Statins for high cholesterol from 1990's.

You are not factoring in economic change.
Yet there are over 15,000 centenarians in the UK who have lived through at least one world war and the great depression of the 1930's.
My Dad told me of how he and his siblings just hung around smelling the food, and not eating much. He died of his heart aged 80 before statins.

Life expectancy may start to drop, worldwide study suggests (healio.com)


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## Foxholer (Jan 6, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			...
Hardly surprising when you consider the big improvement in heath care since about 1970.
Steroid inhalers for lung conditions from 1970. Radiotherapy for cancer from the 1980's. Statins for high cholesterol from 1990's.

You are not factoring in economic change.
Yet there are over 15,000 centenarians in the UK who have lived through at least one world war and the great depression of the 1930's.
My Dad told me of how he and his siblings just hung around smelling the food, and not eating much. He died of his heart aged 80 before statins.
		
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All of which simply demonstrates why your post that I quoted was utter twaddle! Good (also disappointing) to note that you 'are hardly surprised' though! Now all you need to do is pause and think before posting self-confessed drivel!


stefanovic said:



			Yet there are over 15,000 centenarians in the UK who have lived through at least one world war and the great depression of the 1930's.
		
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I should hope they have!  Frauds otherwise!


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## Rooter (Jan 6, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			I doubt if he ever did any exercise and would have eaten a limited diet. He locked himself away for long periods.
Reminds me of a neighbour of mine who became a centenarian. I never saw her out jogging or doing yoga and she had simple eating habits.
		
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Rubbish, it's well documented that Newton was a regular at Bushy parkrun and was one of the first-ever people to sign up to Gousto.


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## stefanovic (Jan 6, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			All of which simply demonstrates why your post that I quoted was *utter twaddle*!
		
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Weak use of language appears in most of your posts.


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## Foxholer (Jan 6, 2022)

Rooter said:



			Rubbish, it's well documented that Einstein was a regular at Bushy parkrun and was one of the first-ever people to sign up to Gousto.
		
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## stefanovic (Jan 6, 2022)

Rooter said:



			Rubbish, it's well documented that Einstein was a regular at Bushy parkrun and was one of the first-ever people to sign up to Gousto.
		
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Where did I mention Einstein?
He died of his heart aged 76 and I know he liked to exercise. Cycling in particular.
I never saw my Dad out running, cycling or any other exercise and he died of his heart aged 80.

The idea that anyone should need intermittent fasting is a merely a sign of our times.
All you have to do is skip a meal occasionally.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2022)

I’ve made an initial start on the 5:2, cutting down on portions of pasta, chips and less chocolate , and lost a couple of lbs this week.  But not fooled as the first lbs are the easiest.


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## Foxholer (Jan 6, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Weak use of language appears in most of your posts.
		
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1. Please explain what you mean by 'weak use of language'.
2. Simplicity works! 
3. Language of the strength I'd like to use has negatve consequences!


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## Beedee (Jan 6, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I’ve made an initial start on the 5:2, cutting down on portions of pasta, chips and less chocolate , *and lost a couple of lbs this week*.  But not fooled as the first lbs are the easiest.
		
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Unfortunately I found them for you :-(

Who knew; pizza, double deckers and wine isn't the answer I was after.


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## Rooter (Jan 6, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Where did I mention Einstein?
He died of his heart aged 76 and I know he liked to exercise. Cycling in particular.
I never saw my Dad out running, cycling or any other exercise and he died of his heart aged 80.

The idea that anyone should need intermittent fasting is a merely a sign of our times.
All you have to do is skip a meal occasionally.
		
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My bad, edited now, but to be fair, the wrong historical figure is the least of my worries in the accuracy of the information being pedaled in the whole thread!


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## Rooter (Jan 6, 2022)

Back to the serious nature of the thread. I have given up all added sugars for January after a chocolate and biscuit fest of a December, already feeling sooooo much better!

I cant really do moderation when it comes to the naughty stuff!


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## Orikoru (Jan 6, 2022)

Rooter said:



			Back to the serious nature of the thread. I have given up all added sugars for January after a chocolate and biscuit fest of a December, already feeling sooooo much better!

I cant really do moderation when it comes to the naughty stuff!
		
Click to expand...

We were bought at least 5 boxes of chocolate for Christmas, so any purge of sugar will have to wait for now.


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## stefanovic (Jan 6, 2022)

Chocolate has protein which fills you up so should not necessarily be considered harmful.
Dark chocolate may even be a kind of super food.

What a link between chocolate and Nobel prizes reveals about our trust in scientists (theconversation.com)
You cannot be serious!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2022)

Rooter said:



			Back to the serious nature of the thread. I have given up all added sugars for January after a chocolate and biscuit fest of a December, already feeling sooooo much better!

I cant really do moderation when it comes to the naughty stuff!
		
Click to expand...

My belief is that total abstinence is the only was to go if I want to *change the way I think* about my diet.  When I discover that my life doesn’t become miserable without chocolate, sugar or chips - indeed it improves - my thinking starts to change without me having to try and *make* it change.

I do have a bit of a problem, especially this time of year, for since I do not drink alcohol then birthday and Christmas presents tend to be pretty exclusively focussed around chocolate…🙄. I am good at giving it away.👍🥰


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 6, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			I doubt if he ever did any exercise and would have eaten a limited diet. He locked himself away for long periods.
Reminds me of a neighbour of mine who became a centenarian. I never saw her out jogging or doing yoga and she had simple eating habits.


Hardly surprising when you consider the big improvement in heath care since about 1970.
Steroid inhalers for lung conditions from 1970. Radiotherapy for cancer from the 1980's. Statins for high cholesterol from 1990's.

You are not factoring in economic change.
Yet there are over 15,000 centenarians in the UK who have lived through at least one world war and the great depression of the 1930's.
My Dad told me of how he and his siblings just hung around smelling the food, and not eating much. He died of his heart aged 80 before statins.

Life expectancy may start to drop, worldwide study suggests (healio.com)

Click to expand...

So you go from *“Average life expectancy has not actually risen by that much.” *to* 
“Hardly surprising when you consider the big improvement in heath care since about 1970.
Steroid inhalers for lung conditions from 1970. Radiotherapy for cancer from the 1980's. Statins for high cholesterol from 1990's.” *when you are proved wrong and then you back pedal after making such a daft comment, time for me to put my tinfoil hat on!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 6, 2022)

Rooter said:



			Back to the serious nature of the thread. I have given up all added sugars for January after a chocolate and biscuit fest of a December, already feeling sooooo much better!

I cant really do moderation when it comes to the naughty stuff!
		
Click to expand...

I build it in to my training as rewards for my efforts.😇


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## Rooter (Jan 6, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			I build it in to my training as rewards for my efforts.😇
		
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I wish I could, but I have no will power. And you cannot out train a bad diet! (or at least I cant!)


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## stefanovic (Jan 6, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			So you go from *“Average life expectancy has not actually risen by that much.” *to* 
“Hardly surprising when you consider the big improvement in heath care since about 1970.
Steroid inhalers for lung conditions from 1970. Radiotherapy for cancer from the 1980's. Statins for high cholesterol from 1990's.” *when you are proved wrong and then you back pedal after making such a daft comment, time for me to put my tinfoil hat on!

Click to expand...

Clearly you have never heard of reversion to the mean, aka regression toward the mean.
The last century was one of turmoil. Up until Covid-19 the previous 50 years had done some rebalancing.
Covid-19 has disproportionally affected the overweight.

Life expectancy in populations over time can fluctuate.
You need to consider conflicts, economics, technology, health systems and other factors.
Ask yourself why the diet industry, the gym and other exercise industry is now worth billions.
It's simply because we are overeating with comparison to all the thousands of generations that preceded us.

Give up your addiction to food and eat less and you will be healthier.
What is it you don't understand about that?


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## Foxholer (Jan 6, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			...
Life expectancy in populations over time can fluctuate.
*You need to consider conflicts, economics, technology, health systems and other factors.*
...
		
Click to expand...

Not when 'proving' that your post wrt life expectancy 'not increasing that much' was simply wrong! The *reasons* don't matter - except in 'extreme' cases. They really only need to be considered when analysing/comparing the differences between expectancy and actuality!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 6, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Clearly you have never heard of reversion to the mean, aka regression toward the mean.
The last century was one of turmoil. Up until Covid-19 the previous 50 years had done some rebalancing.
Covid-19 has disproportionally affected the overweight.

Life expectancy in populations over time can fluctuate.
You need to consider conflicts, economics, technology, health systems and other factors.
Ask yourself why the diet industry, the gym and other exercise industry is now worth billions.
It's simply because we are overeating with comparison to all the thousands of generations that preceded us.

*Give up your addiction to food and eat less and you will be healthier.*
What is it you don't understand about that?
		
Click to expand...

More rubbish! how much less? Less to the point of becoming unhealthy? Not everybody is the same, what works for one, does not work for another, if it did some “diet expert” would of commercialised it and controlled the industry.

As for Life expectancy, I fully understood how it can change over time, it was you who flippantly dismissed it!


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## Mudball (Jan 6, 2022)

Back on the topic.
past 2 days have been skipping breakfast. I must say, the 16/8 IF seems do-able.  Let’s see how far I can string it.


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## Rooter (Jan 7, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Back on the topic.
past 2 days have been skipping breakfast. I must say, the 16/8 IF seems do-able.  Let’s see how far I can string it.
		
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My only concern with that is, if you miss a 300kcal breakfast, wait until 11AM to eat, by that point you are starving and eat a 450Kcal breakfast instead!

Something to watch at least...


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## G1z1 (Jan 7, 2022)

I did a 22 hour fasting for a few months last year, took 2 stone off and felt great. I would have my two hour eating window around 4pm to 6pm used to play a round of golf in morning then go to gym no problem. I found I had more energy but ended up going on holiday and coming off it and never got back on it. Think I’ll give it a go on Monday again, only takes me two three days to get into it then i just kind of don’t think about eating outside my window.


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## Mudball (Jan 7, 2022)

Rooter said:



			My only concern with that is, if you miss a 300kcal breakfast, wait until 11AM to eat, by that point you are starving and eat a 450Kcal breakfast instead!

Something to watch at least...
		
Click to expand...

Agree with your point 

I spoke too soon… had to do the breakfast today, so ended up grazing from everyone’s plates 🤦‍♂️

Overall still think IF is do-able. Will have a proper go next week


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## 3offTheTee (Jan 7, 2022)

Just re read the thread title and misread the ‘s’ for an ‘r’. Thought that would be a far better thread although like most threads on here could get messy!


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## stefanovic (Jan 8, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			More rubbish! how much less? Less to the point of becoming unhealthy? *Not everybody is the same, what works for one, does not work for another, *if it did some “diet expert” would of commercialised it and controlled the industry.
		
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Don't you understand that the rubbish about diet and fitness we are being peddled is just plain wrong.
Dieting such as 5:2, Atkins, Cambridge or whatever cannot take weight off you because there is a tendency to just put it back on again.
You are more likely to GAIN weight.

Fitness plans, gym workouts, jogging or whatever do not take weight off you.
That is because you cannot burn off excess calories that way.
You can never do enough exercise over any time frame and it is likely to make you eat more later.

But one thing does work, and commercial interests don't want you to know it.
If calories in are greater than calories out you will have a tendency to gain weight.
If calories out are greater than calories in you have a tendency to lose weight, and you are naturally burning calories all the time.

So all you basically have to do is eat less until you start to lose weight, and keep it going.
It will also save you money on food and the gym membership.
You can check your BMI online. It needs to be in the range 19 - 24.
Mine is 21.5.
Please no more about BMI not being reliable as it is supported by the NHS.


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## hovis (Jan 8, 2022)

Rooter said:



			My only concern with that is, if you miss a 300kcal breakfast, wait until 11AM to eat, by that point you are starving and eat a 450Kcal breakfast instead!

Something to watch at least...
		
Click to expand...

300 calorie breakfast?  Two slices of toast is 400.  Average breakfast including drinks Is 700-900 calories.


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## hovis (Jan 8, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Agree with your point

I spoke too soon… had to do the breakfast today, so ended up grazing from everyone’s plates 🤦‍♂️

Overall still think IF is do-able. Will have a proper go next week
		
Click to expand...

It's beneficial to break your fast with high protein options and end your eating window with a higher carb option


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## hovis (Jan 8, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Don't you understand that the rubbish about diet and fitness we are being peddled is just plain wrong.
Dieting such as 5:2, Atkins, Cambridge or whatever cannot take weight off you because there is a tendency to just put it back on again.
You are more likely to GAIN weight.

Fitness plans, gym workouts, jogging or whatever do not take weight off you.
That is because you cannot burn off excess calories that way.
You can never do enough exercise over any time frame and it is likely to make you eat more later.

But one thing does work, and commercial interests don't want you to know it.
If calories in are greater than calories out you will have a tendency to gain weight.
If calories out are greater than calories in you have a tendency to lose weight, and you are naturally burning calories all the time.

So all you basically have to do is eat less until you start to lose weight, and keep it going.
It will also save you money on food and the gym membership.
You can check your BMI online. It needs to be in the range 19 - 24.
Mine is 21.5.
Please no more about BMI not being reliable as it is supported by the NHS.
		
Click to expand...

I agree 100% on what you say about calories in calories out but everything else you've written is utter rubbish.
Weight training, running or any form of activity is fundamental to long term weight loss. If you are a postman maybe not so much.  If you work at a desk then definitely.    The average male only requires around 1600/1800 if sedentary.  And a small woman is 1000/1400.That's not alot of food and a really though day if that's all your allowed to eat.  Do some exercise and now your allowance is much higher and you can enjoy life and not hate your diet.
Please explain how you are more likely to gain weight on the diets you detailed.
You also said you cannot burn excess calories by exercising.  Please also explain


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 8, 2022)

hovis said:



			300 calorie breakfast?  Two slices of toast is 400.  Average breakfast including drinks Is 700-900 calories.
		
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Are you sure on the toast? Hovis White, Medium Slice is 93 calories per slice and Wholemeal 88 calories per slice according to the packets.


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## hovis (Jan 8, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Are you sure on the toast? Hovis White, Medium Slice is 93 calories per slice and Wholemeal 88 calories per slice according to the packets.
		
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now add butter.  A moderate amount is 100 calories per slice 😯.  My wife was amazed when I weighed her butter out the 140 cals per slice 😂. That's if you have just butter.  

Measure out 400 cals of strawberries instead and see how much food you get.  Loooooooaaaaaaaaddddddddsss of strawberries for 400 cals and you'll be fuller for longer.   Watermelon and most  berry's are a good alternative too


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 8, 2022)

hovis said:



			now add butter.  A moderate amount is 100 calories per slice 😯.  My wife was amazed when I weighed her butter out the 140 cals per slice 😂

Measure out 400 cals of strawberries instead and see how much food you get.  Loooooooaaaaaaaaddddddddsss of strawberries for 400 cals and you'll be fuller for longer.   Watermelon and most  berry's are a good alternative too
		
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You must put the butter on with a trowel😂😂

Totally agree with the far better fruit option.👍🏻


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## hovis (Jan 8, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			You must put the butter on with a trowel😂😂

Totally agree with the far better fruit option.👍🏻
		
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If you're a sado like me then whey a slice of toast and then whey it after you have lightly buttered your toast.   You'll be shocked how little butter you get for 100 cals


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## hovis (Jan 8, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Back on the topic.
past 2 days have been skipping breakfast. I must say, the 16/8 IF seems do-able.  Let’s see how far I can string it.
		
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If you find yourself starving in between your window then sugar free jelly is a life saver.  Don't eat too much or you'll spend the evening on the toilet


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## Beedee (Jan 8, 2022)

hovis said:



			If you're a sado like me then whey a slice of toast and then whey it after you have lightly buttered your toast.   You'll be shocked how little butter you get for 100 cals
		
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tbh I'm shocked how much butter you get for 100 calories.  100 calories in 3 pats.  Per slice?

One of those pats is 2 slices of toast for me.


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## Foxholer (Jan 8, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Don't you understand that the rubbish about diet and fitness we are being peddled is just plain wrong.
Dieting such as 5:2, Atkins, Cambridge or whatever cannot take weight off you because there is a tendency to just put it back on again.
You are more likely to GAIN weight.

Fitness plans, gym workouts, jogging or whatever do not take weight off you.
That is because you cannot burn off excess calories that way.
You can never do enough exercise over any time frame and it is likely to make you eat more later.

_But one thing does work_, and commercial interests don't want you to know it.
_If calories in are greater than calories out you will have a tendency to gain weight.
If calories out are greater than calories in you have a tendency to lose weight, and you are naturally burning calories all the time._

_So all you basically have to do is eat less until you start to lose weight, and keep it going._
...
		
Click to expand...

Italicised section excepted, everything else in the above is either misleading half-truths, or (the usual) utter twaddle!
Specifically....


stefanovic said:



			...
_Dieting such as 5:2, Atkins, Cambridge or whatever cannot take weight off you_ because there is *a tendency to just put it back on again*.
...
		
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The bold bit is an an admission that the italicised bit is false!


stefanovic said:



			...
Fitness plans, gym workouts, jogging or whatever do not take weight off you.
*That is because you cannot burn off excess calories that way.
You can never do enough exercise over any time frame...*

Click to expand...

Utter twaddle ...Of course you can. However, exercise also has a tendency to increase muscle and muscle is heavier than fat. The type of exercise used to lose weight needs to be 'weight losing' cf simply/solely 'fitness increasing'. Walking is better than jogging for this (and easier on joints too).


stefanovic said:



			...
You can check your BMI online. It *needs to be* in the range 19 - 24.
Mine is 21.5.
Please no more about BMI not being reliable as it is supported by the NHS.
		
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Not 'needs to be', but 'should be'!
And while 'supported' by NHS, NHS documentation also publishes 'Limitations' of the metric! Specifically, BMI makes no distinction between muscle and fat. So a 16 stone seriously obese person and a 16 stonewell muscled person can have the same BMI!


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## hovis (Jan 8, 2022)

Beedee said:



			tbh I'm shocked how much butter you get for 100 calories.  100 calories in 3 pats.  Per slice?

One of those pats is 2 slices of toast for me.
		
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I usually use one pat per slice however,  when I'm using pats of butter it's in a hotel or restaurant where the bread is small.   One pat of butter on a slice of worbortons is depressing 😂


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## Mudball (Jan 8, 2022)

hovis said:



			It's beneficial to break your fast with high protein options and end your eating window with a higher carb option
		
Click to expand...

Interesting .. had not seen this one yet.. something to consider. I have some protein meal replacements but was not considering using it since I need some sustenance. 
 I am WFH for another 3 months atleast. My physical exercise is going to be 30-60 mins of mix of cardio and weights five times a week. I need to figure out a way to get calorie deficient. Not easy.


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## hovis (Jan 8, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Interesting .. had not seen this one yet.. something to consider. I have some protein meal replacements but was not considering using it since I need some sustenance.
I am WFH for another 3 months atleast. My physical exercise is going to be 30-60 mins of mix of cardio and weights five times a week. I need to figure out a way to get calorie deficient. Not easy.
		
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Never drink calories.  It's just a waste when you can be eating them.  Calories from liquid don't give you a sense of fulfilment.  However, some people find protein drinks to be very filling (not me personally)
What do you mean by "find a way to get calories deficient"?  Finding time?


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## Foxholer (Jan 8, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Interesting .. had not seen this one yet.. something to consider. I have some protein meal replacements but was not considering using it since I need some sustenance.
I am WFH for another 3 months atleast. My physical exercise is going to be 30-60 mins of mix of cardio and weights five times a week. *I need to figure out a way to get calorie deficient. Not easy.*

Click to expand...

Brisk walking - or cycling (machine?) is a good way to burn calories without much effect on other areas. Swimming is possibly even better, but possibly not as convenient.


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## Mudball (Jan 9, 2022)

hovis said:



			Never drink calories.  It's just a waste when you can be eating them.  Calories from liquid don't give you a sense of fulfilment.  However, some people find protein drinks to be very filling (not me personally)
*What do you mean by "find a way to get calories deficient"?  Finding time?*

Click to expand...

30-40 mins Daily bike/rowing/weights burn about 300-500 cals (as per Apple Watch) 

So need to find how to get deficient. I see this is 3 ways
1) Reduce intake (IF should help with that as I m missing a meal)
2) Reduce portion size for those I have 
3) change what is on the menu itself. Greens, cottage cheese, Greek yogurt etc etc. (tasty stuff), reduce alcohol et al 

Hope that makes sense


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## AmandaJR (Jan 9, 2022)

Mudball said:



			30-40 mins Daily bike/rowing/weights burn about 300-500 cals (as per Apple Watch)

So need to find how to get deficient. I see this is 3 ways
1) Reduce intake (IF should help with that as I m missing a meal)
2) Reduce portion size for those I have
3) change what is on the menu itself. Greens, cottage cheese, Greek yogurt etc etc. (tasty stuff), reduce alcohol et al

Hope that makes sense
		
Click to expand...

Not sure if it's been mentioned but an accurate way to make sure you're in a deficit is to use something like My Fitness Pal. The conversation about butter is the sort of thing people get caught out on so, boring and time consuming it is, weigh/measure everything until you're better at eyeballing portion sizes.


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## hovis (Jan 9, 2022)

Mudball said:



			30-40 mins Daily bike/rowing/weights burn about 300-500 cals (as per Apple Watch)

So need to find how to get deficient. I see this is 3 ways
1) Reduce intake (IF should help with that as I m missing a meal)
2) Reduce portion size for those I have
3) change what is on the menu itself. Greens, cottage cheese, Greek yogurt etc etc. (tasty stuff), reduce alcohol et al

Hope that makes sense
		
Click to expand...

Like Amanda said.  My fitness pal is very good.  If you want to maintain a 500 cal deficit for eg you have to track and weigh your food.   Eyeballing is not gonna work for you.   I might sound like a ball ache but it's not once you get into a routine.  All I would say is keep your activities as high as possible. Walking to the shops, walking the dog. Anything you can do above your norm would be a help.    Personally I don't do cardio but I walk the dog for 6 miles each day and 3 times a week walk another 5 miles around the golf course. That's 57 miles a week without breaking a sweat


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## Junior (Jan 9, 2022)

G1z1 said:



			I did a 22 hour fasting for a few months last year, took 2 stone off and felt great. I would have my two hour eating window around 4pm to 6pm used to play a round of golf in morning then go to gym no problem. I found I had more energy but ended up going on holiday and coming off it and never got back on it. Think I’ll give it a go on Monday again, only takes me two three days to get into it then i just kind of don’t think about eating outside my window.
		
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Ive done 16/8 a few times with some success. Never tried 22/2.  What did you eat in the 2 hours ?  Did you stay healthy or avoid refined carbs etc ?


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## G1z1 (Jan 9, 2022)

Junior said:



			Ive done 16/8 a few times with some success. Never tried 22/2.  What did you eat in the 2 hours ?  Did you stay healthy or avoid refined carbs etc ?
		
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Lol no definitely didn’t eat healthy. My problem is my diet I don’t drink or smoke but my diet is really quite bad and so I’ve put on a few stone as I’ve got older.
I would do the 22/2 fasting as a cheat to get weight off. So in my two hour window I would eat maybe eat a Chinese two cokes and then have some crisps/chocolate before my window shut. It got two stone off fast and I could eat as much crap as I wanted. I am probably still two stone away from my ideal weight so need to get on the two hour window but eat clean next time but I really do struggle eating clean for any length of time unfortunately


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## AmandaJR (Jan 9, 2022)

G1z1 said:



			Lol no definitely didn’t eat healthy. My problem is my diet I don’t drink or smoke but my diet is really quite bad and so I’ve put on a few stone as I’ve got older.
I would do the 22/2 fasting as a cheat to get weight off. So in my two hour window I would eat maybe eat a Chinese two cokes and then have some crisps/chocolate before my window shut. It got two stone off fast and I could eat as much crap as I wanted. I am probably still two stone away from my ideal weight so need to get on the two hour window but eat clean next time but I really do struggle eating clean for any length of time unfortunately
		
Click to expand...

Please be careful as your body needs better fuel than that - especially fuel on a deficit. Don't try to eat clean for any length of time - just try and eat clean today. Then maybe tomorrow will be equally clean or better BUT your not setting yourself up to fail and also think "well that's messed that up so might as well carry on as I've blown it". Or perhaps in that two hour window set a target for 5 pieces of fruit or vegetable and around that have what you want...


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## stefanovic (Jan 10, 2022)

Remind me what all this dieting and exercise culture has done for the citizens of a nation that is now 2/3rds overweight.
I am unsettled that the leader of the UK is an overweight sausage.
What message does that send out?

Once upon a time being overweight was a sign of success, and this still seems to be embedded in our culture.

Being overweight means that your internal organs have more stress.
Fat is now the new thin and no amount of dieting and exercise is foreseeably going to change it.

How many more people am I going to meet who have told me they were once fine sports' people but now have big problems with joints.


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## 4LEX (Jan 11, 2022)

hovis said:



			300 calorie breakfast?  Two slices of toast is 400.  Average breakfast including drinks Is 700-900 calories.
		
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That is simply not true. Anyone who eats a 900 calorie breakfast will be obese and a drain on the NHS. Even a full English won't come to 900 calories! Unless you're a fat b**tard and have two of everything. Two slices of standard toast is 150-200 max.


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## hovis (Jan 11, 2022)

4LEX said:



			That is simply not true. Anyone who eats a 900 calorie breakfast will be obese and a drain on the NHS. Even a full English won't come to 900 calories! Unless you're a fat b**tard and have two of everything. Two slices of standard toast is 150-200 max.
		
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And this is why people are overweight because people like you have no idea how many calories you are eating. First of all I said 700/900 not 900.  And that was being Conservative too
Yes Two slices of bread is150-220 calories but you do have butter right?  Jam or any other spread too? .  Butter adds 150 to 200 calories

Two slices of toast 300 let's say
Two sausage 220
Two bacon 160
Beans 100
One egg 80
Cup of tea with 2 sugars 50
Thats 810 cals and a very small breakfast as far as a "full English" goes.  Now include Hash browns,  black pudding fried bread.  A full English can hit a 1000 cals easy.  
Two slices of toast with chocolate spread is 700 cals if you have butter too


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## stefanovic (Jan 11, 2022)

hovis said:



			Thats 810 cals and a very small breakfast as far as a "full English" goes.  Now include Hash browns,  black pudding fried bread.  A full English can hit a 1000 cals easy. 
Two slices of toast with chocolate spread is 700 cals if you have butter too
		
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Having a good breakfast might make you feel less hungry later and adult males can consume up to 2500 calories a day without putting on weight.
Only worry about what you eat and drink in the evening.
It's easy to input calories but very difficult to take them off if you overeat.
Exercise never takes enough calories off unless you are a super athlete and they can only be like that for so long.
After midday only eat if you feel hungry. If you do have hunger try and put off eating until later.


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## hovis (Jan 11, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Having a good breakfast might make you feel less hungry later and adult males can consume up to 2500 calories a day without putting on weight.
Only worry about what you eat and drink in the evening.
It's easy to input calories but very difficult to take them off if you overeat.
Exercise never takes enough calories off unless you are a super athlete and they can only be like that for so long.
After midday only eat if you feel hungry. If you do have hunger try and put off eating until later.
		
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2500 a day is very broad.  If you worked behind a desk I'd wager you'd put on weight on that amount of calories.
I agree with it being hard to take calories away  but don't forget a round of golf for example is 600 calories "ish".   Of course that's not going to scratch the surface if you've just smashed a large dominos pizza.  still alot better than nothing though


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## Foxholer (Jan 11, 2022)

hovis said:



			And this is why people are overweight because people like you have no idea how many calories you are eating. First of all I said 700/900 not 900.  And that was being Conservative too
Yes Two slices of bread is150-220 calories but you do have butter right?  Jam or any other spread too? .  Butter adds 150 to 200 calories

Two slices of toast 300 let's say
Two sausage 220
Two bacon 160
Beans 100
One egg 80
Cup of tea with 2 sugars 50
Thats 810 cals and a very small breakfast as far as a "full English" goes.  *Now include Hash browns,  black pudding fried bread.  A full English can hit a 1000 cals easy. *
...
		
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Just what's needed before a round of Golf these days!


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## stefanovic (Jan 12, 2022)

hovis said:



			2500 a day is very broad.  If you worked behind a desk I'd wager you'd put on weight on that amount of calories.
		
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2500 is about right to maintain your energy levels. Sitting and thinking only burns off about 320 calories. 



			I agree with it being hard to take calories away  but don't forget a round of golf for example is 600 calories "ish".
		
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You might burn off twice that amount if you carry your clubs.



			Of course that's not going to scratch the surface if you've just smashed a large dominos pizza.
		
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I'm not sure why the thought of that actually makes me feel sick. I had a medium sized pizza last night and I could only eat half.

Did you know you have a second brain and it's in your gut. 
Formerly proposed by Chinese medicine it's now accepted by science. Check it out.
I'm guessing it has a sort of body clock which will send a message to your head brain to eat at a certain time, but you can override it by delaying a meal.


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## Bdill93 (Jan 12, 2022)

Aldi and Lidl do some amazing protein yoghurts for 75p a pack.

148 calories - very thick yogurts and very filling!

Great option for low cal but filling breakfasts or snacks!


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## Foxholer (Jan 12, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			...
Did you know you have a second brain and it's in your gut.
...
		
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No different to many other possible analogies - like a 'body clock' as per your post!
Not real, but a convenient analogy.


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## hovis (Jan 12, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Did you know you have a second brain and it's in your gut.
Formerly proposed by Chinese medicine it's now accepted by science. Check it out.
I'm guessing it has a sort of body clock which will send a message to your head brain to eat at a certain time, but you can override it by delaying a meal.
		
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Well, you don't have a second brain on your gut.  A hormone is produced in the gut call ghrelin.  That signals you to eat.   And yes it can be an habitual release


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## stefanovic (Jan 13, 2022)

So it's all metaphor, is it.
Scientists have found a ‘second brain’. And it's in your gut (theprint.in)


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## Foxholer (Jan 13, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			So it's all metaphor, is it.
Scientists have found a ‘second brain’. And it's in your gut (theprint.in)

Click to expand...

Please explain why 'second brain' is enclosed in quotes if it's actually real!
Time you wound your 'body clock' up!


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## Kennysarmy (Jan 13, 2022)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I’ve made an initial start on the 5:2, cutting down on portions of pasta, chips and less chocolate , and lost a couple of lbs this week.  But not fooled as the first lbs are the easiest.
		
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All the things I luurrrvveeeee


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## Kennysarmy (Jan 13, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Brisk walking - or cycling (machine?) is a good way to burn calories without much effect on other areas. Swimming is possibly even better, but possibly not as convenient.
		
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Is swimming in Beer a thing?


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## Rooter (Jan 13, 2022)

13 days into no added sugar. I'm down 2.4kg after an Xmas of excess. Started tracking macro's again also using an excellent app called Nutra Check. (please note, i am smashing out 8 hours ish of had CV training a week too) I am eating well and am coming in at just under 2200 kcal a day.


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## Foxholer (Jan 13, 2022)

Kennysarmy said:



			Is swimming in Beer a thing?
		
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Possibly a contributor to 'drowning in debt'!


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## Orikoru (Jan 13, 2022)

I've been reading this topic with interest. I've never considered it something I can do, I often used to get light-headed or headaches if I miss one meal - but it might be just because I've never tried and my body is not used to missing meals. Perhaps on a day like a Friday, when I work from home, I could implement something like this.

Just as an example, if I simply skipped lunch every Friday, would that have any effect at all? Say I eat breakfast at 9:30 (three Weetabix + dried blueberries and cranberries), and dinner at 19:30 so would be 10 hours of fasting I guess. Is that useless? 

Like a lot of people, me and the wife love our takeaways (twice a week, just on the weekends) and wouldn't want to give that up so it's about working around it. We have joined a gym now. Last week I played football on Monday, went to the gym on Tuesday & Wednesday, football Wednesday night, football Thursday night, and gym on Friday - end result was that I barely lost 1 pound. So I think I need to change something else.


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## SteveW86 (Jan 13, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I've been reading this topic with interest. I've never considered it something I can do, I often used to get light-headed or headaches if I miss one meal - but it might be just because I've never tried and my body is not used to missing meals. Perhaps on a day like a Friday, when I work from home, I could implement something like this.

Just as an example, if I simply skipped lunch every Friday, would that have any effect at all? Say I eat breakfast at 9:30 (three Weetabix + dried blueberries and cranberries), and dinner at 19:30 so would be 10 hours of fasting I guess. Is that useless?

Like a lot of people, me and the wife love our takeaways (twice a week, just on the weekends) and wouldn't want to give that up so it's about working around it. We have joined a gym now. Last week I played football on Monday, went to the gym on Tuesday & Wednesday, football Wednesday night, football Thursday night, and gym on Friday - end result was that I barely lost 1 pound. So I think I need to change something else.
		
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To lose 1lb of weight, you generally need to create a calorie deficit of 3500. Aiming for this over a week is achieveable, so would suggest you need to work out how many calories are in the food that you eat. Unfortunately there are likely going to be a lot of calories in your take aways, it does look like you are quite active though so this will help with creating a deficit. To be honest,I would get rid of the take aways for a couple of months to really help with the diet side of things, then can always bring 1 a week back when you are only looking to maintain weight.

At the start of 2020 just before Covid hit, I lost 12 kg's in 8 weeks without doing anything groundbreaking. I went to the gym for an hour 4 days a week (20 minutes on the bike going almost as quick as I could, followed by some weights) and ate sensibly. Eating healthy stuff means you can eat more and you can definitely make some really tasty stuff. For me it was all about getting some exercise in, but more importantly cutting out all of the crap food, I was a real sucker for the food van at work and crisps.


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## Orikoru (Jan 13, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			To lose 1lb of weight, you generally need to create a calorie deficit of 3500. Aiming for this over a week is achieveable, so would suggest you need to work out how many calories are in the food that you eat. Unfortunately there are likely going to be a lot of calories in your take aways, it does look like you are quite active though so this will help with creating a deficit. To be honest,I would get rid of the take aways for a couple of months to really help with the diet side of things, then can always bring 1 a week back when you are only looking to maintain weight.

At the start of 2020 just before Covid hit, I lost 12 kg's in 8 weeks without doing anything groundbreaking. I went to the gym for an hour 4 days a week (20 minutes on the bike going almost as quick as I could, followed by some weights) and ate sensibly. Eating healthy stuff means you can eat more and you can definitely make some really tasty stuff. For me it was all about getting some exercise in, but more importantly cutting out all of the crap food, I was a real sucker for the food van at work and crisps.
		
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I just love food though. I almost feel like I'm joining the gym _so_ I can still have the takeaways. If I wanted to cut the takeaways I'd also not bother with the gym.  I do need to give the gym more time to take effect though of course, still getting into the swing of things with that at the moment. Probably not done enough while I'm there as I'm still feeling it out, kind of thing.


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## SteveW86 (Jan 13, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I just love food though. I almost feel like I'm joining the gym _so_ I can still have the takeaways. If I wanted to cut the takeaways I'd also not bother with the gym.  I do need to give the gym more time to take effect though of course, still getting into the swing of things with that at the moment. Probably not done enough while I'm there as I'm still feeling it out, kind of thing.
		
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When trying to lose weight, food is the key. For the average joe, its pretty much impossible to out train a bad diet, so I'd almost say if you arent going to give the take aways up, then you arent going to lose weight without making the meals you eat for the rest of the week pretty painful.


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## Orikoru (Jan 13, 2022)

SteveW86 said:



			When trying to lose weight, food is the key. For the average joe, its pretty much impossible to out train a bad diet, so I'd almost say if you arent going to give the take aways up, then you arent going to lose weight without making the meals you eat for the rest of the week pretty painful.
		
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That's fair. I guess I'm not asking for an athlete's body, I'd rather be slightly tubby and happy than thin and miserable. The big takeaway is Saturday night and I tend to play golf at midday so I'm skipping lunch and walking for 3.5 hours at least.


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## Mudball (Jan 13, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			That's fair. I guess I'm not asking for an athlete's body, I'd rather be slightly tubby and happy than thin and miserable. The big takeaway is Saturday night and I tend to play golf at midday so I'm skipping lunch and walking for 3.5 hours at least. 

Click to expand...


I am sure there are more informed people here who can guide you.  Yesterday, I hit the bike and weights for an hour!! . Had also skipped breakfast.   But ended up having a big Nandos (because we had other commitments).  So i guess the there was no benefit of the gym for me.  

The other thing we havent discussed is SLEEP.  My Nandos was fairly late, (9:30) and then ended up going to bed around 11 after watching some telly.  Ideally, you want to have an early dinner and then atleast 2 hours before bed.  So stick to 19:30 if you are doing ur takeaways.
Also dont skimp on your water intake.  AND dont drink at the 19th or the halfway hut everytime (a cheeky one may be alright)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 13, 2022)

Mudball said:



			I am sure there are more informed people here who can guide you.  *Yesterday, I hit the bike and weights for an hour!! . Had also skipped breakfast.   But ended up having a big Nandos (because we had other commitments).  So i guess the there was no benefit of the gym for me. *

The other thing we havent discussed is SLEEP.  My Nandos was fairly late, (9:30) and then ended up going to bed around 11 after watching some telly.  Ideally, you want to have an early dinner and then atleast 2 hours before bed.  So stick to 19:30 if you are doing ur takeaways.
Also dont skimp on your water intake.  AND dont drink at the 19th or the halfway hut everytime (a cheeky one may be alright)
		
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Re the bit in bold, I genuinely believe you are being a bit harsh on yourself, try looking at a longer period for any real benefits of going the gym/weight loss/food intake etc.

1 Nando’s every now and then isn’t going to hurt, just like going the gym regularly will help.

It is difficult, but try and ignore weighing yourself or measuring the waist etc too regular, set yourself 2 weeks or even longer between getting on the scales etc.

Unless seriously training try and remember results will take time and preventing yourself from getting pee’d off and stopping trying is the way to go.


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## Orikoru (Jan 13, 2022)

Mudball said:



			I am sure there are more informed people here who can guide you.  *Yesterday, I hit the bike and weights for an hour!! . Had also skipped breakfast.   But ended up having a big Nandos (because we had other commitments).  So i guess the there was no benefit of the gym for me. *

The other thing we havent discussed is SLEEP.  My Nandos was fairly late, (9:30) and then ended up going to bed around 11 after watching some telly.  Ideally, you want to have an early dinner and then atleast 2 hours before bed.  So stick to 19:30 if you are doing ur takeaways.
Also dont skimp on your water intake.  AND dont drink at the 19th or the halfway hut everytime (a cheeky one may be alright)
		
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You say that, but I normally look at it the other way. Rather than thinking 'I had a Nando's so that rendered my gym session pointless', I would normally view it as 'I went to the gym earlier so that allowed me to eat a Nando's with a lot of calories already cancelled out.' 

I am with you on eating earlier, but I constantly have to nag my wife on that front. She's a serial procrastinator, with everything, so she'll quite happily eat at 8, or 8:30, or even 9pm. I am always telling her I want to eat at 7pm ideally, 7:30 at the latest. 

I definitely don't drink enough water. But, I don't drink much alcohol either these days (the two weeks around Christmas were a big exception to this!). My post-golf drink is two shandies. Ever since Covid started we've rarely ever gone out to the pub on the weekend like we used to.


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## stefanovic (Jan 13, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Please explain why 'second brain' is enclosed in quotes if it's actually real!
Time you wound your 'body clock' up!
		
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Everything in language is metaphor.
The thinking part of the brain is in the cerebrum.
We know only so much about our head brain and are only starting to understand the gut brain.

The Brain-Gut Connection | Johns Hopkins Medicine

If you don't like the idea of "second brain" or "gut brain" you are free to call it what you like, because like I say everything in language is metaphor.
Whatever you call your brains, you will need to keep both healthy.
By overeating or undereating you may well harm them both.


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## Rooter (Jan 13, 2022)

If you go to Nando’s, make good choices. Have the spicy rice rather than chips, go easy on the sauces etc. you can eat out and lose weight!


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## Mudball (Jan 13, 2022)

Rooter said:



			If you go to Nando’s, make good choices. Have the spicy rice rather than chips, go easy on the sauces etc. you can eat out and lose weight!
		
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agree with you, but can’t help put this one out..


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## Neilds (Jan 13, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			That's fair. I guess I'm not asking for an athlete's body, I'd rather be slightly tubby and happy than thin and miserable. The big takeaway is Saturday night and I tend to play golf at midday so I'm skipping lunch and *walking for 3.5 hours at least.* 

Click to expand...

Unfortunately the bit in bold is not quite correct, and that is where people end up fibbing to themselves to try and justify the extra takeaway or extra portion. Yes, a round of golf takes 3.5-4 hours but you aren’t walking for this amount of time. A 4 hour steady walk would be about 12-16 miles, much more than a round of golf.  Also, those who say, I spent over an hour at the gym so can have a few pints might also be kidding themselves if they count getting changed, waiting between reps, swapping machines (including wiping them down afterward) etc. They may only be exercising for half the time they think they are.


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## HowlingGale (Jan 13, 2022)

After reading this thread I decided to work out how many calories a favourite breakfast of mine is. Toast with peanut butter and jam. Weighed out the peanut butter as 60g and it wasn't even two large tablespoons! That equates to about 360 cals alone. Fainted and stopped there. Didn't bother weighing the toast and jam.

From experience if you want to shift a bit of timber you need to be constantly about 7 on the hunger scale. 1 being full and 10 being starving. Exercise alone doesn't work. You need to cut calories.


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## Rooter (Jan 13, 2022)

Mudball said:



			agree with you, but can’t help put this one out..

View attachment 40555

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Lol I like kale, cooked properly like most veg, it’s awesome.


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## Rooter (Jan 13, 2022)

HowlingGale said:



			From experience if you want to shift a bit of timber you need to be constantly about 7 on the hunger scale. 1 being full and 10 being starving. Exercise alone doesn't work. You need to cut calories.
		
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Sorry but that’s bull of the highest order. There is no need to be hungry on a calorie deficit diet. If you are, you are eating the wrong foods.
you are right in exercise alone is not enough, you can’t out train a bad diet.


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## Foxholer (Jan 13, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Everything in language is metaphor...
If you don't like the idea of "second brain" or "gut brain" you are free to call it what you like, because like I say everything in language is metaphor.
		
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Oh dear! Been on _those_ mushrooms again?!
There is no 'gut brain'! Just a bunch of neurons, same as in many other parts of the body - in fact, in the entire central nervous system!


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## AmandaJR (Jan 13, 2022)

Personally I do better when I stop thinking about exercise as a calorie burner rather than on a way to be fitter and healthier. That mindset means it's more about quality than quantity and, for me, is a healthier mindset.


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## HowlingGale (Jan 13, 2022)

Rooter said:



			Sorry but that’s bull of the highest order. There is no need to be hungry on a calorie deficit diet. If you are, you are eating the wrong foods.
you are right in exercise alone is not enough, you can’t out train a bad diet.
		
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Not from my experience it's not. Tried a number of things years ago when I was sporting and the only thing that worked was being hungry most of the time. Maybe the understanding of things has changed since a decade ago but I couldn't lose weight unless I was just hungry.


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## Rooter (Jan 13, 2022)

HowlingGale said:



			Not from my experience it's not. Tried a number of things years ago when I was sporting and the only thing that worked was being hungry most of the time. Maybe the understanding of things has changed since a decade ago but I couldn't lose weight unless I was just hungry.
		
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You were eating the wrong foods.


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## HowlingGale (Jan 13, 2022)

Rooter said:



			You were eating the wrong foods.
		
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What can you eat on a fast day that makes you feel full when you're only allowed 600 cals?


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## Rooter (Jan 13, 2022)

HowlingGale said:



			What can you eat on a fast day that makes you feel full when you're only allowed 600 cals?
		
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You have moved the goal posts, you said constantly. I read that as, constantly. 600 cal a day is extreme.


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## HowlingGale (Jan 13, 2022)

Rooter said:



			You have moved the goal posts, you said constantly. I read that as, constantly. 600 cal a day is extreme.
		
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Sorry, yes I did a bit but the same holds true for both. I'd like to know what you're eating to make you feel full.
I've done IF for a number of years to maintain my weight and if I need to lose weight I just need to go hungry.
Does body shape or how much weight you need to lose matter?


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## Marshy77 (Jan 13, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Personally I do better when I stop thinking about exercise as a calorie burner rather than on a way to be fitter and healthier. That mindset means it's more about quality than quantity and, for me, is a healthier mindset.
		
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With you on this. Haven't been to the gym/spin class for about 3/4 weeks and didn't realise how much I'd missed until I went today. Had a few rubbish weeks at work and feel great now I've been to spin. 

Trying to lose weight again, doing dry January and intend to carry on into Feb and definitely cut back on the booze. Eating healthier, WFH so should be able to maintain it and really need to start making these changes permanent. Not getting any younger!! 

The calorie tracking apps are good to help you keep on track, input your exercise and try be deficit. We all want instant results unfortunately and I've found time and time again that it takes time.


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## Orikoru (Jan 14, 2022)

Neilds said:



			Unfortunately the bit in bold is not quite correct, and that is where people end up fibbing to themselves to try and justify the extra takeaway or extra portion. Yes, a round of golf takes 3.5-4 hours but you aren’t walking for this amount of time. A 4 hour steady walk would be about 12-16 miles, much more than a round of golf.  Also, those who say, I spent over an hour at the gym so can have a few pints might also be kidding themselves if they count getting changed, waiting between reps, swapping machines (including wiping them down afterward) etc. They may only be exercising for half the time they think they are.
		
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That's all true. But when I used to use My Fitness Pal they still reckoned a round of golf burned 1000 calories! I thought that was a bit over the top so I used to write 120 minutes instead of the full time to make it a little more realistic.


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## Orikoru (Jan 14, 2022)

HowlingGale said:



			Not from my experience it's not. Tried a number of things years ago when I was sporting and the only thing that worked was being hungry most of the time. Maybe the understanding of things has changed since a decade ago but I couldn't lose weight unless I was just hungry.
		
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I agree with you. I'm always hungry as it is, let alone when dieting. If I ate every time I was hungry I'd have 5 meals a day.   If that means I'm 'eating the wrong food' then so be it, but unfortunately the 'wrong foods' seem to be the only ones that taste palatable.


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## hovis (Jan 14, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			That's all true. But when I used to use My Fitness Pal they still reckoned a round of golf burned 1000 calories! I thought that was a bit over the top so I used to write 120 minutes instead of the full time to make it a little more realistic.
		
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You probably do burn a 1000 calories in 4 hours.  You need to look at how many extra calories you have burnt.   So if you stood on the first tee for 4 hours and didn't move you would still burn calories (400). The activity itself is about 100 cals per mile.  If that makes sense? 
Sitting on the sofa watching TV burns calories


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## Orikoru (Jan 14, 2022)

hovis said:



			You probably do burn a 1000 calories in 4 hours.  You need to look at how many extra calories you have burnt.   So if you stood on the first tee for 4 hours and didn't move you would still burn calories (400). The activity itself is about 100 cals per mile.  If that makes sense?
Sitting on the sofa watching TV burns calories
		
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I know you mean - but I just checked it again on MFP, 'Golf pulling clubs' for 240 minutes it says 1349 calories burned. It just seems wildly over-the-top when my daily allowance was only 1750 ish. If I put 'carrying clubs' it goes up to 1412 calories burned. I was always cautious to put the activities on the slightly lower side to ensure I was at a deficit, if you know what I mean. So I would put 2 or 3 hours instead of 3.5 or 4 to be on the safer side.


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## Rooter (Jan 14, 2022)

HowlingGale said:



			Sorry, yes I did a bit but the same holds true for both. I'd like to know what you're eating to make you feel full.
I've done IF for a number of years to maintain my weight and if I need to lose weight I just need to go hungry.
Does body shape or how much weight you need to lose matter?
		
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Vegetables, lots of veg! Eat the rainbow! 

100g of broccoli 31 kcal
100g of carrots 29 kcal
100g of Kale 26 kcal
100g of baby corn 31 kcal
100g of cabbage 17 kca
100g of fennel 11 kcal
100g of beetroot 53kcal
100g sprouts 32 kcal
100g artichoke 18 kcal
100g of courgette 15 kcal

So above is 1KG of cooked veg, 263 kcal... you would not be hungry after that lot!!! So it can be done very easily, but people chose not to.


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## Rooter (Jan 14, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I agree with you. I'm always hungry as it is, let alone when dieting. If I ate every time I was hungry I'd have 5 meals a day.   If that means I'm 'eating the wrong food' then so be it, but unfortunately the 'wrong foods' seem to be the only ones that taste palatable.
		
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5 small meals a day might be best for you! 

If the 'right foods' are not palatable, cook them differently, add them to a ragu, make stews, rice jumbles, hash's. If you really want to lose weight, it's actually very easy. You just need to focus. But if it doesn't taste like Nando's or like Mama used to make, its probably for a reason, and that reason might be why people are trying to lose weight to start with....


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## HowlingGale (Jan 14, 2022)

Rooter said:



			Vegetables, lots of veg! Eat the rainbow!

100g of broccoli 31 kcal
100g of carrots 29 kcal
100g of Kale 26 kcal
100g of baby corn 31 kcal
100g of cabbage 17 kca
100g of fennel 11 kcal
100g of beetroot 53kcal
100g sprouts 32 kcal
100g artichoke 18 kcal
100g of courgette 15 kcal

So above is 1KG of cooked veg, 263 kcal... you would not be hungry after that lot!!! So it can be done very easily, but people chose not to.
		
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How sustainable is that though? There's no protein or fat in that. I take it that's just one meal a day? The others have at least some nuts or lean meat or whatever.

I have to say I do eat a lot of veg and never feel full after it. Routinely have 4 different veg portions with dinner. However I've never eaten it in that quantity in one sitting. My bum would be like a sprinkler head after that lot 😃.


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## Rooter (Jan 14, 2022)

HowlingGale said:



			How sustainable is that though? There's no protein or fat in that. I take it that's just one meal a day? The others have at least some nuts or lean meat or whatever.

I have to say I do eat a lot of veg and never feel full after it. Routinely have 4 different veg portions with dinner. However I've never eaten it in that quantity in one sitting. My bum would be like a sprinkler head after that lot 😃.
		
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That obviously was not a meal, I was making a point.

You would have that as part of a balanced meal with some protein and a carb, some examples below. but you could pick 2 or 3 of the veg, pile it high, then have a protein and carb from below for a proper decent meal under 500 kcal

Protiens
150g chicken breast baked 230kcal
120g salmon fillet baked 278kcal
200g bean chilli 150kcal (approx)

Carbs
120g baked sweet potato 130kcal
120g wholemeal pasta 180kcal
150g bulgar wheat 120kcal
125g brown rice 165kcal


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## stefanovic (Jan 14, 2022)

In all of human history (approx. 250,000 - 300,000 years) it is only THIS GENERATION that has ever been majority overweight.
All this talk about diet and exercise to fix the problem is just plain wrong.

Where is the proof that diet and exercise works?
Go on, tell me.

And it can only get worse until people realise it doesn't work and can never work. 
Health systems can only do so much and are likely to break.

I'll repeat the only thing that works is when calories in are limited to less than calories out over any time frame. 
The responsibility for this can only be taken by the individual.


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## Neilds (Jan 14, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			In all of human history (approx. 250,000 - 300,000 years) it is only THIS GENERATION that has ever been majority overweight.
All this talk about diet and exercise to fix the problem is just plain wrong.

Where is the proof that diet and exercise works?
Go on, tell me.

And it can only get worse until people realise it doesn't work and can never work.
Health systems can only do so much and are likely to break.

I'll repeat the only thing that works is when calories in are limited to less than calories out over any time frame.
The responsibility for this can only be taken by the individual.
		
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So you diet to limit calories in and exercise to maximise calories out .  Seems you manage to defeat your own argument in subsequent paragraphs.


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## Rooter (Jan 14, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Where is the proof that diet and exercise works?
Go on, tell me.
		
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Hmmmm



stefanovic said:



			I'll repeat the only thing that works is when calories in are limited to less than calories out over any time frame.
The responsibility for this can only be taken by the individual.
		
Click to expand...


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## Red devil (Jan 14, 2022)

I reached 60 last year and realised I'm nearer the grave than the cradle and decided to get a grip on my health.
Now what I write here is not a recommendation or a critique of what others are doing it's just what I've done and the results.
I do shift work in a sedentary job, I drive trains, diabetes is rife in my profession but thankfully I don't have it, nor want it.
I was at least 2 stone overweight and raised blood pressure, having a stroke puts the fear of God in me.
So I hit Google and came across a Dr Jason Fung who advocated IF and a lo carb diet he explained it in a language I understood so I decided to give it a go.
I IF from end of dinner on Monday to breakfast Wednesday, 36hrs, I repeat this from on Wednesday to Friday another 36hrs. I just have water, a coffee with a splash of milk in the morning and maybe a green tea in the afternoon. Mon,Wed and Friday I go to the gym for a session of compound weight training and 30 mins cardio.
I'm not saying going without food is easy, it isn't one does get hunger pangs especially around 17.00 but then I have my green tea.
I have generally lost 2-3lbs a week, be aware this isn't a rapid quick fix and my blood pressure has come down from 144/94 to 119/78 this morning, no meds.
I didn't follow the low carb diet, I like a pint on a Friday with my mate too much. But it seems to be ok.
I'm not suggesting anyone try it or if it's the right way,just saying it works for me and I'm sticking with it.


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## hovis (Jan 14, 2022)

HowlingGale said:



			How sustainable is that though? There's no protein or fat in that. I take it that's just one meal a day? The others have at least some nuts or lean meat or whatever.

I have to say I do eat a lot of veg and never feel full after it. Routinely have 4 different veg portions with dinner. However I've never eaten it in that quantity in one sitting. My bum would be like a sprinkler head after that lot 😃.
		
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I think he was just making a point of how much volume of food you get for such a small amount of calories.  Adding a chicken breast to the above wouldn't be problem.


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## stefanovic (Jan 14, 2022)

Neilds said:



			So you diet to limit calories in and exercise to maximise calories out .  Seems you manage to defeat your own argument in subsequent paragraphs.
		
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Just to burn off a bacon roll takes 30 minutes of running.
Our forefathers never needed to do that or take out gym memberships.
No matter how much exercise you do it will never be enough.
Dieting is paradoxically likely to put on weight.


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## hovis (Jan 14, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Just to burn off a bacon roll takes 30 minutes of running.
Our forefathers never needed to do that or take out gym memberships.
No matter how much exercise you do it will never be enough.
Dieting is paradoxically likely to put on weight.
		
Click to expand...

Our forefathers didn't have cars, ready made food, uber eats, tractors, diggers, ploughing machines and automatic planters.   They also did have access to extremely high calorie dense food such as kebabs and pizza's. 
Activity was high just to stay alive

Please explain how a diet puts on weight.  Enlighten me


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 14, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Just to burn off a bacon roll takes 30 minutes of running.
Our forefathers never needed to do that or take out gym memberships.
No matter how much exercise you do it will never be enough.
Dieting is paradoxically likely to put on weight.
		
Click to expand...

Our forefathers and their forefathers faced famines and society suffered from malnutrition on a scale never seen before!!

Maybe we need to bring back Workhouses and start sending kids back up the Chimneys! That’ll sort em!


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## Foxholer (Jan 14, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			...
and start sending kids back up the Chimneys! That’ll sort em!

Click to expand...

They'll likely need to lose weight first!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 14, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			They'll likely need to lose weight first! 

Click to expand...

Not with the current rate of under 5’s admitted to hospital with malnutrition, doubled to over 2,500 last year!


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## Foxholer (Jan 14, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Not with the current rate of under 5’s admitted to hospital with malnutrition, doubled to over 2,500 last year!
		
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Ah. Could be the old 'Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics' issue - aka more measurements. Or better recognition.
I trust you realise it's possible to be both obese *and* malnourished.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 14, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Ah. Could be the old 'Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics' issue - aka more measurements. Or better recognition.
I trust you realise it's possible to be both obese *and* malnourished.
		
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Yes, but not in the case of those under 5’s hospitalised.


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## Mudball (Jan 14, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Not with the current rate of under 5’s admitted to hospital with malnutrition, doubled to over 2,500 last year!
		
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Off topic..  a few weeks ago, I was at my local chippy. Fairly busy. Bit saddened to see some young families and kids just getting chips .. it may be filling but surely can’t be healthy. But again, these are  tough times too


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 14, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Off topic..  a few weeks ago, I was at my local chippy. Fairly busy. Bit saddened to see some young families and kids just getting chips .. it may be filling but surely can’t be healthy. But again, these are  tough times too
		
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Was it a friday? We always had “chippy tea” on a friday growing up.

In all honesty though, I think a lot of the issues today is laziness, but those parents were brought in to the world by us and our parents.

It’s unfair to simply blame them when we’ve created, and in someways, got the society we wanted.

Certainly a lot more opportunities today, but also pressures we don’t fully understand.


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## Mudball (Jan 14, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Was it a friday? We always had “chippy tea” on a friday growing up.

In all honesty though, I think a lot of the issues today is laziness, but those parents were brought in to the world by us and our parents.

It’s unfair to simply blame them when we’ve created, and in someways, got the society we wanted.

Certainly a lot more opportunities today, but also pressures we don’t fully understand.
		
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I agree with you…  I was not judging, just an observation


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## Mudball (Jan 14, 2022)

Been off the sauce since Christmas.  I fancy a small drink tonight while watching telly. Scotland’s finest dram instead of a pint.. I am assuming it is (nearly) zero calories


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 14, 2022)

Mudball said:



			I agree with you…  I was not judging, just an observation
		
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Didn’t take it any other way than it was intended.👍🏻


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## Foxholer (Jan 14, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Been off the sauce since Christmas.  I fancy a small drink tonight while watching telly. Scotland’s finest dram instead of a pint.. I am assuming it is (nearly) zero calories
		
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About 60Cals/25ml nip. About 1/3rd cals as in 1 Pint of beer


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## stefanovic (Jan 15, 2022)

hovis said:



			Please explain how a diet puts on weight.  Enlighten me
		
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Because you are likely to disrupt your metabolism, and your secondary brain will message your primary brain to eat more later.
(Please note, the use of the term second brain is a metaphor like any other word and you can call it what you like.)

Do Diets Really Just Make You Fatter? (healthline.com)
Quote from article: Studies suggest that rather than achieving weight loss, most people who frequently diet end up gaining weight in the long term.




			Our forefathers didn't have cars, ready made food, uber eats, tractors, diggers, ploughing machines and automatic planters.
		
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Explain how far back you are going with this.
Funny how they stayed alive long enough to reproduce and pass their genes down to the next generation.
Could it be they ate more natural food?


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## hovis (Jan 15, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Because you are likely to disrupt your metabolism, and your secondary brain will message your primary brain to eat more later.
(Please note, the use of the term second brain is a metaphor like any other word and you can call it what you like.)

Do Diets Really Just Make You Fatter? (healthline.com)
Quote from article: Studies suggest that rather than achieving weight loss, most people who frequently diet end up gaining weight in the long term.


Explain how far back you are going with this.
Funny how they stayed alive long enough to reproduce and pass their genes down to the next generation.
Could it be they ate more natural food?
		
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Sorry buddy but that's simply not true. When I take on new clients this is exactly the type of garbage I have to put up with
Metabolism come in three parts
NEAT (look it up)
THERMIC EFFECT OF FOOD
BASAL METABOLIC RATE.

Diets only effect NEAT that accounts towards around 20% of your total MR.  Even starvation diets only effect NEAT.  So in English, even if you starve yourself for two months this will only effect the 20% portion of your MR.

The reason the majority of people put on weight following a diet is because they are fed up with being hungry and they simply let go.   Every person has a "set point" this is a point where the body is happy with its fatness.  If you diet below this then yes your body sends a signal called ghrelin to the brain and tells you to eat until you get back to this point (not past that point like you're suggesting).  It's an easy problem to fix you simply fool you're body by eating low calorie high volume foods and keep activity high.

The reason most diets don't work is because the amount of disinformation that's out there.  Because it's in an article or magazine it must be right?    Most people don't even check the references to the research and follow it blindly.

There's a guy that I can't stand on YouTube called Greg doucette (spelt wrong no doubt). However, as much as I hate his mannerisms I can't argue with his content.  He tells it straight and true.  He's sold his soul for money so if anyone does decide to take a look go back at least a year


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## Foxholer (Jan 15, 2022)

'A little less - and 'better' - food; a little more exercise' seems a pretty simple, safe and healthy way to reduce imo.


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## hovis (Jan 15, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			'A little less - and 'better' - food; a little more exercise' seems a pretty safe and healthy way to reduce imo.
		
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Or what if I said a little more and still less!   I love chocolate.  I mean propa love chocolate.  I make protein chocolate bars and I can eat 3 times more to the galaxy equivalent (and much healthier). Now, I'm not for one second saying that my bars are in the same league as a galaxy Chocolate bar but they are good enough to scratch my chocolate itch and leave me full for a long time.  A 100g galaxy bar doesn't even touch the sides with me 🤣.


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## AmandaJR (Jan 15, 2022)

hovis said:



			Or what if I said a little more and still less!   I love chocolate.  I mean propa love chocolate.  I make protein chocolate bars and I can eat 3 times more to the galaxy equivalent (and much healthier). Now, I'm not for one second saying that my bars are in the same league as a galaxy Chocolate bar but they are good enough to scratch my chocolate itch and leave me full for a long time.  A 100g galaxy bar doesn't even touch the sides with me 🤣.
		
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I also go for protein bars to get my chocolate fix...plus a little 80% dark chocolate. Have you heard of foodcirclesupermarket...usually some really good deals.


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## Foxholer (Jan 15, 2022)

hovis said:



			Or what if I said a little more and still less!   I love chocolate.  I mean propa love chocolate.  I make protein chocolate bars and I can eat 3 times more to the galaxy equivalent (and much healthier). Now, I'm not for one second saying that my bars are in the same league as a galaxy Chocolate bar but they are good enough to scratch my chocolate itch and leave me full for a long time.  A 100g galaxy bar doesn't even touch the sides with me 🤣.
		
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Forgot to include 'and simple' - will update my post shortly. Frequently, it's the  (thought of the) faffing about that puts folk off.


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## hovis (Jan 15, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			I also go for protein bars to get my chocolate fix...plus a little 80% dark chocolate. Have you heard of foodcirclesupermarket...usually some really good deals.
		
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Yeh.  I get a lot of stuff of them.  I'm convinced that some of their bars are seconds or runs they've purchased that the supplier wasn't quite happy with


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## AmandaJR (Jan 15, 2022)

hovis said:



			Yeh.  I get a lot of stuff of them.  I'm convinced that some of their bars are seconds or runs they've purchased that the supplier wasn't quite happy with
		
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Could be although I've not spotted any issues with mine. Not sure how they get the Clif bars so cheap but boy they taste good! Service is brilliant too.


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## hovis (Jan 15, 2022)

AmandaJR said:



			Could be although I've not spotted any issues with mine. Not sure how they get the Clif bars so cheap but boy they taste good! Service is brilliant too.
		
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I've Just noticed a few differences in texture from one batch to another In some of their bars.   Nothing to moan about just explains how they sell so cheap.


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## Mudball (Jan 16, 2022)

Played an hour of squash today. It was the first time I was trying it. What a sport and how hard it is to play it. Trying to get the ball warmed up took 15 mins.  Played 4 matches  + rallies where my friends showed me the ropes. At the end of the session.. my avg heart rate for the session was > 80% my max heart rate!  

Brutal. But loved it.


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## hovis (Jan 16, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Played an hour of squash today. It was the first time I was trying it. What a sport and how hard it is to play it. Trying to get the ball warmed up took 15 mins.  Played 4 matches  + rallies where my friends showed me the ropes. At the end of the session.. my avg heart rate for the session was > 80% my max heart rate! 

Brutal. But loved it.
		
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Squash is a beast of a sport.  It's a sport where your opponent only has to be a little better than you and they're standing still and you are running around like a headless chicken.  My dad destroys me each time 🤬


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## Mudball (Jan 16, 2022)

hovis said:



			Squash is a beast of a sport.  It's a sport where your opponent only has to be a little better than you and they're standing still and you are running around like a headless chicken.  My dad destroys me each time 🤬
		
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I realised that today. One of the guys is  a big lad but he is also the most experienced one. He was teaching me and giving tips. I realised he hardly moved while I was the headless one. At the end of the hour they had to carry me out.


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## Rooter (Jan 17, 2022)

Mudball said:



			I realised that today. One of the guys is  a big lad but he is also the most experienced one. He was teaching me and giving tips. I realised he hardly moved while I was the headless one. At the end of the hour they had to carry me out.
		
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Fat guy I used to work with was a teenage county player. He regularly wiped the floor with me without moving from the T. Like a lot of things, energy and muscle do not win!


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## stefanovic (Jan 17, 2022)

hovis said:



			Sorry buddy but that's simply not true. When I take on new clients this is exactly the type of garbage I have to put up with
Metabolism come in three parts
NEAT (look it up)
THERMIC EFFECT OF FOOD
BASAL METABOLIC RATE.
		
Click to expand...

In the final analysis nothing can override the entropy of the body, A property of thermodynamics which governs the whole of energy and matter in the universe, also applies to life.
Despite all the health advice about losing weight, nothing works.
All you need to do is eat less.

What happens in America despite all the diet and exercise culture happens here.

https://www.healthline.com/health/obesity-facts

It already has of course.


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## Foxholer (Jan 17, 2022)

Rooter said:



			Fat guy I used to work with was a teenage county player. He regularly wiped the floor with me without moving from the T. Like a lot of things, energy and muscle do not win!
		
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I knew a guy similarly shaped. A Grade squash player and very good Tennis player - especially Doubles. My regular Club Mixed partner was very big too. She was probably quicker around the court than I was, though not for long. She and her 2 similarly shaped sisters played Netball to County level!


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## Foxholer (Jan 17, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			In the final analysis nothing can override the entropy of the body, A property of thermodynamics which governs the whole of energy and matter in the universe, also applies to life.
Despite all the health advice about losing weight, nothing works.
All you need to do is eat less.

What happens in America despite all the diet and exercise culture happens here.

https://www.healthline.com/health/obesity-facts

It already has of course.
		
Click to expand...


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## hovis (Jan 17, 2022)

Foxholer said:





Click to expand...

I know 😂


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## stefanovic (Jan 18, 2022)

Whatever happened to 3 modest meals a day at regular intervals?
You hardly ever saw an overweight person and there were no gyms to speak of and no park runs.
Gyms now in every high street next door to McD or KFC.
Could there be a connection there?

You guys seem to be quite happy with American food culture.
Like 24 hour burger and chicken bars.
Whatever happened to a good night's sleep?
Nothing could be more harmful to your health than perhaps smoking and drinking to excess.
Supersized food portions is not what your body is meant for.

Your body is a chemical composition and in scientific terms its purpose is to hydrogenate carbon dioxide.
Life is only an extension of chemistry and the only animal species that eat to excess is us, the inappropriately named Homo sapiens.
Human evolution cannot benefit by the present food and drink culture.

Now that blue Monday is over...

Every year, the third Monday of January is dubbed “Blue Monday”. The theory goes that this is the time of year when we're all cold, *broke and riddled with guilt that our new year's resolutions to get fit, drink less alcohol*, and be a better human being have fallen by the wayside.


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## Neilds (Jan 18, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Whatever happened to 3 modest meals a day at regular intervals?
You hardly ever saw an overweight person and there were no gyms to speak of and no park runs.
Gyms now in every high street next door to McD or KFC.
Could there be a connection there?

You guys seem to be quite happy with American food culture.
Like 24 hour burger and chicken bars.
Whatever happened to a good night's sleep?
Nothing could be more harmful to your health than perhaps smoking and drinking to excess.
Supersized food portions is not what your body is meant for.

Your body is a chemical composition and in scientific terms its purpose is to hydrogenate carbon dioxide.
Life is only an extension of chemistry and the only animal species that eat to excess is us, the inappropriately named Homo sapiens.
Human evolution cannot benefit by the present food and drink culture.

Now that blue Monday is over...

Every year, the third Monday of January is dubbed “Blue Monday”. The theory goes that this is the time of year when we're all cold, *broke and riddled with guilt that our new year's resolutions to get fit, drink less alcohol*, and be a better human being have fallen by the wayside.
		
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Ok, I'll bite!

Life in the past was very different from today so trying to just blame the type/amount of food is very narrow minded.  In the past, jobs were much more physical, not as many people owned cars (never mind multi car households) so people walked more, kids didn't have games consoles so played outside more, etc.

You seem to be hell bent on preaching that diets don't work, but then continually state that people eat the wrong things/too much.  What people eat is known as their diet, therefore changing your diet affects your weight.  It may not be what is officially known as a diet but changing to healthier food is changing their diet.  What you are spouting is contradicting your whole argument.


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## Foxholer (Jan 18, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Whatever happened to 3 modest meals a day at regular intervals?
You hardly ever saw an overweight person and there were no gyms to speak of and no park runs.
Gyms now in every high street next door to McD or KFC.
Could there be a connection there?

You guys seem to be quite happy with American food culture.
Like 24 hour burger and chicken bars.
Whatever happened to a good night's sleep?
Nothing could be more harmful to your health than perhaps smoking and drinking to excess.
Supersized food portions is not what your body is meant for.

Your body is a chemical composition and in scientific terms its purpose is to hydrogenate carbon dioxide.
Life is only an extension of chemistry and the only animal species that eat to excess is us, the inappropriately named Homo sapiens.
Human evolution cannot benefit by the present food and drink culture.

Now that blue Monday is over...

Every year, the third Monday of January is dubbed “Blue Monday”. The theory goes that this is the time of year when we're all cold, *broke and riddled with guilt that our new year's resolutions to get fit, drink less alcohol*, and be a better human being have fallen by the wayside.
		
Click to expand...


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## BiMGuy (Jan 18, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Whatever happened to 3 modest meals a day at regular intervals?
You hardly ever saw an overweight person and there were no gyms to speak of and no park runs.
Gyms now in every high street next door to McD or KFC.
Could there be a connection there?

You guys seem to be quite happy with American food culture.
Like 24 hour burger and chicken bars.
Whatever happened to a good night's sleep?
Nothing could be more harmful to your health than perhaps smoking and drinking to excess.
Supersized food portions is not what your body is meant for.

Your body is a chemical composition and in scientific terms its purpose is to hydrogenate carbon dioxide.
Life is only an extension of chemistry and the only animal species that eat to excess is us, the inappropriately named Homo sapiens.
Human evolution cannot benefit by the present food and drink culture.

Now that blue Monday is over...

Every year, the third Monday of January is dubbed “Blue Monday”. The theory goes that this is the time of year when we're all cold, *broke and riddled with guilt that our new year's resolutions to get fit, drink less alcohol*, and be a better human being have fallen by the wayside.
		
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What happened to catching and growing your own food. Bring that back and people would soon be thin again.


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## Pathetic Shark (Jan 18, 2022)

All I know about Blue Monday is that it was the biggest selling 12" of all time and is an awesome production.


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## stefanovic (Jan 19, 2022)

Neilds said:



			Life in the past was very different from today so trying to just blame the type/amount of food is very narrow minded.  In the past, jobs were much more physical, not as many people owned cars (never mind multi car households) so people walked more, kids didn't have games consoles so played outside more, etc.
		
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Yet they didn't need to eat exotic foods from the likes of India and China to survive.
Their kids weren't junk fed to shut them up.
They also spoke to each other face to face.
They weren't chatting on mobile phones for hours a day.
They didn't have the mental health issues we have today.
They weren't living on anti-depressants.
They were more likely to be happier, even during wartime.
I don't think anybody now will be talking about the good old days of the 2020's.




			You seem to be hell bent on preaching that diets don't work, but then continually state that people eat the wrong things/too much.  What people eat is known as their diet, therefore changing your diet affects your weight.  It may not be what is officially known as a diet but changing to healthier food is changing their diet.  What you are spouting is contradicting your whole argument.
		
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I'm saying that according to all studies made promoted diets like Atkins do not work. Atkins himself was overweight when he passed away.
In the past people ate what was available. They did not have supply lines to source food from all over the world.
All of your ancestors managed to reproduce and many were likely to have survived famine.


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## Mudball (Jan 19, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Yet they didn't need to eat exotic foods from the likes of India and China to survive.
Their kids weren't junk fed to shut them up.
They also spoke to each other face to face.
They weren't chatting on mobile phones for hours a day.
They didn't have the mental health issues we have today.
They weren't living on anti-depressants.
They were more likely to be happier, even during wartime.
I don't think anybody now will be talking about the good old days of the 2020's.


I'm saying that according to all studies made promoted diets like Atkins do not work. Atkins himself was overweight when he passed away.
In the past people ate what was available. They did not have supply lines to source food from all over the world.
All of your ancestors managed to reproduce and many were likely to have survived famine.
		
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All individually valid points in the first section... but am I allowed to say,...  I have no clue of what you are trying to say here.


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## Foxholer (Jan 19, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Yet they didn't need to eat exotic foods from the likes of India and China to survive.
Their kids weren't junk fed to shut them up.
They also spoke to each other face to face.
They weren't chatting on mobile phones for hours a day.
They didn't have the mental health issues we have today.
They weren't living on anti-depressants.
They were more likely to be happier, even during wartime.
I don't think anybody now will be talking about the good old days of the 2020's.

I'm saying that according to all studies made promoted diets like Atkins do not work. Atkins himself was overweight when he passed away.
In the past people ate what was available. They did not have supply lines to source food from all over the world.
All of your ancestors managed to reproduce and many were likely to have survived famine.
		
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Apart from the Atkins point, more irrelevant, unprovable drivel!

As for the Atkins bit...that 'diet' was highly criticised by knowledgeable folk at the time and is no longer actively promoted.


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## Rooter (Jan 19, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			I don't think anybody now will be talking about the good old days of the 2020's.
		
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I've been to the year 3000. Not much has changed, but we live underwater.


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## Orikoru (Jan 19, 2022)

Rooter said:



			I've been to the year 3000. Not much has changed, but we live underwater.
		
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And your great, great, great grandaughter.. is about 500 years old.


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## Mudball (Jan 19, 2022)

Rooter said:



			I've been to the year 3000. Not much has changed, but we live underwater.
		
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Can you check the archieves and find out who wins the PL in 2022... i want to put some money on it.. 
If I win, I will go to McD for a big meal..  (but i promise to get a Diet Pepsi along with my Triple Big Mac)


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## stefanovic (Jan 19, 2022)

Foxholer said:




Apart from the Atkins point, more irrelevant, unprovable drivel!
As for the Atkins bit...that 'diet' was highly criticised by knowledgeable folk at the time and is no longer actively promoted.
		
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When are you going to actually say something and provide evidence that it works?

Maybe you are a Gary Taubes fan. He is also supposed to know it all and even encourages you to eat fat.
That should be great news for many folks here.
But looking at his profile, I doubt it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Taubes


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## Foxholer (Jan 19, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			When are you going to actually say something and provide evidence that it works?
...
		
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I'm not interested in any of the scheme those money grabbing proselytising quacks try to push. And the same goes for your (less than) half truth twaddle too! You are all potentially dangerous!


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## hovis (Jan 19, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			When are you going to actually say something and provide evidence that it works?

Maybe you are a Gary Taubes fan. He is also supposed to know it all and even encourages you to eat fat.
That should be great news for many folks here.
But looking at his profile, I doubt it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Taubes

Click to expand...

Shows how little you know.  After months of keto diet (eating 70% fat). I lost 2 stone and every marker from cholesterol, blood pressure to hormone stability was the best its ever been.    You are simply chucking random crap out about a subject you clearly now nothing about.


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## Foxholer (Jan 19, 2022)

hovis said:



			Shows how little you know.  After months of keto diet (eating 70% fat). I lost 2 stone and every marker from cholesterol, blood pressure to hormone stability was the best its ever been.    *You are simply chucking random crap out about a subject you clearly now nothing about*.
		
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I'd suggest 'just enough to be dangerous' would be a better description!
I trust your overall health is being monitored by 'experts' though - including 'traditional' ones. Any such dramatic change from the norm - including rapid weight loss or dietary change - normally has some 'side-effects' that can be tricky to correct/adjust to, or even identify if the change is dramatically positive. And any 'coaches' can get too single-minded about the 'new way' to the detriment of checking 'general' health.
I hope it continues to work well for you.


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## hovis (Jan 19, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			I'd suggest 'just enough to be dangerous' would be a better description!
I trust your overall health is being monitored by 'experts' though - including 'traditional' ones. Any such dramatic change from the norm - including rapid weight loss or dietary change - normally has some 'side-effects' that can be tricky to correct/adjust to, or even identify if the change is dramatically positive. And any 'coaches' can get too single-minded about the 'new way' to the detriment of checking 'general' health.
I hope it continues to work well for you.
		
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The keto diet I done was part of a group study that I actually got paid for (only £100 a month). Two stone fat loss for a 17 stone guy (20% body fat) is nothing really.    You have to remember I work in an industry where a body builder routinely drops that (easily) in a 3 month window to get on a stage.   The only problems arise when body fat gets too low (sub 9% for most) this tends to have a negative effect on hormone production.
The keto diet was quite simply amazing if your purpose is fat loss.  For everything else I thought it sucked balls🤣.   Definitely not suitable for my lifestyle.   Still a learning experience though.    Life is just better with carbs 😛


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## Mudball (Jan 20, 2022)

about a week and half since i started skipping breakfast...  no major dramas for me.    I am working from home, so i think it not putting too much strain on me,

Looks sustainable to me.  If I can spin the story as saying that I am reducing food carbon miles and reducing deforestaion of the Amazon by skipping breakfast.. then I can get some ESG points at work too..    Win-Win-Win


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## Foxholer (Jan 20, 2022)

Mudball said:



			about a week and half since i started skipping breakfast...  no major dramas for me.    I am working from home, so i think it not putting too much strain on me,

Looks sustainable to me.  If I can spin the story as saying that I am reducing food carbon miles and reducing deforestaion of the Amazon by skipping breakfast.. then I can get some ESG points at work too..    Win-Win-Win
		
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There's considerable evidence that skipping breakfast doesn't help weight loss and can actually be 'detrimental' to health.
Better imo, to reduce 'lunch' than eliminate breakfast, though certainly change from 'full English' to something smaller - a bowl of porridge for example.

Btw. If you don't have breakfast, doesn't lunch become 'breakfast' anyway?


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## Mudball (Jan 20, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			There's considerable evidence that skipping breakfast doesn't help weight loss and can actually be 'detrimental' to health.
Better imo, to reduce 'lunch' than eliminate breakfast, though certainly change from 'full English' to something smaller - a bowl of porridge for example.

*Btw. If you don't have breakfast, doesn't lunch become 'breakfast' anyway?* 

Click to expand...

No.. becuase i have a full english as my brunch


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## stefanovic (Jan 20, 2022)

hovis said:



			Shows how little you know.  After months of keto diet (eating 70% fat). I lost 2 stone and every marker from cholesterol, blood pressure to hormone stability was the best its ever been.    You are simply chucking random crap out about a subject you clearly now nothing about.
		
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Keto diet is dangerous and unsustainable.

https://www.uchicagomedicine.org/fo...ss-articles/ketogenic-diet-what-are-the-risks

How did you ever get to being 17 stone. What is your BMI?
I weigh a little over 9 stone and my BMI is 21.5.
I don't need to take lessons in how little I know about eating.


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## Neilds (Jan 20, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Keto diet is dangerous and unsustainable.

https://www.uchicagomedicine.org/fo...ss-articles/ketogenic-diet-what-are-the-risks

How did you ever get to being 17 stone. What is your BMI?
I weigh a little over 9 stone and my BMI is 21.5.
I don't need to take lessons in how little I know about eating.
		
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This report says Keto is safe and good for you
https://www.getthegloss.com/news/fast-800-keto-diet-dr-michael-mosley-explains#
Just goes to prove that you can confirm any argument on the internet!


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## Orikoru (Jan 20, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			There's considerable evidence that skipping breakfast doesn't help weight loss and can actually be 'detrimental' to health.
Better imo, to reduce 'lunch' than eliminate breakfast, though certainly change from 'full English' to something smaller - a bowl of porridge for example.

Btw. If you don't have breakfast, doesn't lunch become 'breakfast' anyway? 

Click to expand...

I was wondering this. I always heard that 'breakfast is the most important meal of the day' due to it kicking off your metabolism or something.


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## Foxholer (Jan 20, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Keto diet is dangerous and unsustainable.

https://www.uchicagomedicine.org/fo...ss-articles/ketogenic-diet-what-are-the-risks

How did you ever get to being 17 stone. What is your BMI?
I weigh a little over 9 stone and my BMI is 21.5.
I don't need to take lessons in how little I know about eating.
		
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ALL Diets CAN be dangerous! The danger simply needs to be recognised and avoided/worked around.
I agree about the (lack of) sustainability though.


stefanovic said:



			...
I dont need to take lessons in how little I know about eating.
		
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FTFY!


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## Mudball (Jan 20, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Keto diet is dangerous and unsustainable.

https://www.uchicagomedicine.org/fo...ss-articles/ketogenic-diet-what-are-the-risks

How did you ever get to being 17 stone. What is your BMI?
I weigh a little over 9 stone and my BMI is 21.5.
I don't need to take lessons in how little I know about eating.
		
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A friend of mine went onto Keto and lost considerable weight.  He was a pain when he was on it, because of the things he would eat.  He is now off it but sticks to good food habits.  Havent gained his old self yet.  
He woould only drink neat Whiskey while on it, becase it has zero cals


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## BiMGuy (Jan 20, 2022)

Orikoru said:



			I was wondering this. I always heard that 'breakfast is the most important meal of the day' due to it kicking off your metabolism or something.
		
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The marketing department at Kelloggs agrees 😉


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 20, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Keto diet is dangerous and unsustainable.

https://www.uchicagomedicine.org/fo...ss-articles/ketogenic-diet-what-are-the-risks

How did you ever get to being 17 stone. What is your BMI?
I weigh a little over 9 stone and my BMI is 21.5.
I don't need to take lessons in how little I know about eating.
		
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Didn’t our ancestors basically eat a keto diet?


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## RichA (Jan 20, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Didn’t our ancestors basically eat a keto diet?
		
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Didn't they just eat whatever they could hunt or gather and generally die in their late 20s?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 20, 2022)

RichA said:



			Didn't they just eat whatever they could hunt or gather and generally die in their late 20s?
		
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Some must of survived and procreated or we wouldn’t being having this discussion


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## RichA (Jan 20, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Some must of survived and procreated or we wouldn’t being having this discussion

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Yeah. Plenty of time for that before they keeled over from old age at 29. 
Must watch Logan's Run again some time.


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## chellie (Jan 20, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Didn’t our ancestors basically eat a keto diet?
		
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Was that not paleo?


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## Foxholer (Jan 20, 2022)

chellie said:



			Was that not paleo?
		
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What prehistoric/paleolithic humans consumed was indeed what they could hunt and gather. But that doesn't mean it was the best diet for them, simply the easist to obtain. And if you look at the evolutionary development of humans, particularly size, over millenia, it demonstrates that availability of food via farming/production cf hunting/gathering has been one of major contributors to that development.


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## D-S (Jan 20, 2022)

Mudball said:



			He woould only drink neat Whiskey while on it, becase it has zero cals
		
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It does have calories in it - 78 per standard pub measure.


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## chellie (Jan 20, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			What prehistoric/paleolithic humans consumed was indeed what they could hunt and gather. But that doesn't mean it was the best diet for them, simply the easist to obtain. And if you look at the evolutionary development of humans, particularly size, over millenia, it demonstrates that availability of food via farming/production cf hunting/gathering has been one of major contributors to that development.
		
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So did they eat Paleo or Keto


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 20, 2022)

chellie said:



			Was that not paleo?
		
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It was a throw away comment, but always thought paleo had an element of exercise and mindfulness to it, which I doubt occurred to our ancestors, keto is more about macro’s but still basic food stuffs, Both share many common characteristics.


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## Foxholer (Jan 20, 2022)

chellie said:



			So did they eat Paleo or Keto
		
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Pass. Veg apart, to me they seem to have lots of similarities/crossover.


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## hovis (Jan 20, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			Keto diet is dangerous and unsustainable.

https://www.uchicagomedicine.org/fo...ss-articles/ketogenic-diet-what-are-the-risks

How did you ever get to being 17 stone. What is your BMI?
I weigh a little over 9 stone and my BMI is 21.5.
I don't need to take lessons in how little I know about eating.
		
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I'm now 6ft 4 and 15 stone.  I've been into weight lifting all my life.   The fact that you are quoting BMI speaks volumes.  The keto diet is not dangerous at all. However I agree, for 99% of people it's definitely not sustainable


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## Rooter (Jan 20, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			Pass. Veg apart, to me they seem to have lots of similarities/crossover.
		
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Cut and paste sums it up quite well, I always saw Paleo as allowing carbs, keto not (extremely limited)



The ketogenic diet is characterized by its high fat and very low carbohydrate content. It may be effective for weight loss and blood sugar control.

The paleo diet emphasizes eating whole foods that were thought to be available to humans in the Paleolithic era. It also encourages exercise and other wellness practices.

Both diets have the potential to positively impact your health when appropriately planned.

However, long-term research regarding safety and efficacy of these diet plans is lacking and some of the restrictions can be difficult to maintain.

For most people, the paleo diet is a better choice because it has more flexibility with food choices than keto, which makes it easier to maintain long-term.

At the end of the day, the diet that works long-term for you is the best choice.


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## Rooter (Jan 20, 2022)

hovis said:



			I'm now 6ft 4 and 15 stone.  I've been into weight lifting all my life.   The fact that you are quoting BMI speaks volumes.  The keto diet is not dangerous at all. However I agree, for 99% of people it's definitely not sustainable
		
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I tried it, couldn't do it. was having to have bulletproof coffee etc and blugh! I love the idea of being able to solely (almost) have fat as your primary fuel source, I know endurance athletes on it as a lifestyle and they do not hit the wall!


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## hovis (Jan 20, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			There's considerable evidence that skipping breakfast doesn't help weight loss and can actually be 'detrimental' to health.
Better imo, to reduce 'lunch' than eliminate breakfast, though certainly change from 'full English' to something smaller - a bowl of porridge for example.

Btw. If you don't have breakfast, doesn't lunch become 'breakfast' anyway? 

Click to expand...

There isn't really any reputable evidence.  There's no money on telling people not to eat. You never know who's funding the reasarch you read.   
Considering the muscles and liver store around 2500/3500 calories of sugar (average male). Then missing breakfast isn't a big deal.  If your goal is physical performance related then absolutely breakfast is vital.


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## Rooter (Jan 20, 2022)

hovis said:



			If your goal is physical performance related then absolutely breakfast is vital.
		
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I'm gonna pick your brains on this point, what are your thoughts on fasted training. The reason being, a lot of my training is done at 5AM. I am not getting up even earlier so I can have a bowl of porridge!! So am I missing out by doing these sessions fasted? (Longest session fasted may be up to 2hrs, but will be on the bike, so I may have a carb drink and or some snacks)


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## hovis (Jan 20, 2022)

Rooter said:



			I tried it, couldn't do it. was having to have bulletproof coffee etc and blugh! I love the idea of being able to solely (almost) have fat as your primary fuel source, I know endurance athletes on it as a lifestyle and they do not hit the wall!
		
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One of the keto benefits I dismiss is performance.  It just isn't going to happen on a keto diet.  I went from bench pressing 110kg to 75kg in 1 month and didn't get my strength back until I finished the diet.    I can see how it might make people feel more energetic if they was previously on a very poor diet but that's not the keto.  That's just cutting out the crap


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## hovis (Jan 20, 2022)

Rooter said:



			I'm gonna pick your brains on this point, what are your thoughts on fasted training. The reason being, a lot of my training is done at 5AM. I am not getting up even earlier so I can have a bowl of porridge!! So am I missing out by doing these sessions fasted? (Longest session fasted may be up to 2hrs, but will be on the bike, so I may have a carb drink and or some snacks)
		
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Absolutely fine.  I train fasted each morning at 6.30am.   You just have to make sure your last meal the night before had a decent amount of cabs in.    If I eat before training I actually suffer performance wise.   So for me it's a pint of water and a pre workout and off I go


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## Rooter (Jan 20, 2022)

hovis said:



			Absolutely fine.  I train fasted each morning at 6.30am.   You just have to make sure your last meal the night before had a decent amount of cabs in.    If I eat before training I actually suffer performance wise.   So for me it's a pint of water and a pre workout and off I go
		
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My thoughts too and I eat well in the evenings! Just seen some opinions about dismissing fasted training..


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## hovis (Jan 20, 2022)

Rooter said:



			My thoughts too and I eat well in the evenings! Just seen some opinions about dismissing fasted training..
		
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Easy way to find out.   Measure your performance.   Try fasted and non and see for yourself.   I guarantee they'll be no difference.  Don't get me wrong, if you wake up at 6am and train fasted at 10 you might notice it.   But you're pretty much rolling out of bed into the gym.   No issues mate

Also, Google "Dawn effect" .    Not just applicable to diabetics


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## chellie (Jan 20, 2022)

I just need to give myself a kick up the bum again with what I am eating.....


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## Foxholer (Jan 20, 2022)

chellie said:



			I just need to give myself a kick up the bum again with what I am eating.....
		
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If you can do that, you either have a big problem, or no problem at all!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 20, 2022)

hovis said:



			Absolutely fine.  I train fasted each morning at 6.30am.   You just have to make sure your last meal the night before had a decent amount of cabs in.    If I eat before training I actually suffer performance wise.   So for me it's a pint of water and a pre workout and off I go
		
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Rooter said:



			I'm gonna pick your brains on this point, what are your thoughts on fasted training. The reason being, a lot of my training is done at 5AM. I am not getting up even earlier so I can have a bowl of porridge!! So am I missing out by doing these sessions fasted? (Longest session fasted may be up to 2hrs, but will be on the bike, so I may have a carb drink and or some snacks)
		
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Not so much on fasted training, but have either of you found an optimal “time” to train, regardless of when you eat, ie, prefer mornings over evenings etc or has your training adapted to lifestyle?


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## Mudball (Jan 20, 2022)

D-S said:



			It does have calories in it - 78 per standard pub measure.
		
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Sorry.. Whiskey has no calories.. I like that story and I am sticking wiht it..    (now where did i leave my glass)


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## hovis (Jan 20, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Not so much on fasted training, but have either of you found an optimal “time” to train, regardless of when you eat, ie, prefer mornings over evenings etc or has your training adapted to lifestyle?
		
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Absolutely.  I am noticeably stronger between 9 and 11am.  There was a program (I'll try and find it) where olympic athletes where saying how the time of the race on an event such as 100 meters (where milliseconds count) can be the difference between 1st and 5th.   It was very interesting.
Personally I don't know how anyone can train past 8pm but the gym I worked at was rammed at that time.   Crazy to me


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## Rooter (Jan 21, 2022)

pauldj42 said:



			Not so much on fasted training, but have either of you found an optimal “time” to train, regardless of when you eat, ie, prefer mornings over evenings etc or has your training adapted to lifestyle?
		
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Like Hovis, I am more mornings for training, but I reckon if i had to pick a time for say a 10k race, i would want to go off at 11. Plenty of time for breakfast and loo etc,


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## Foxholer (Jan 21, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Sorry..* Whiskey* has no calories.. I like that story and I am sticking wiht it..    (now where did i leave my glass)
		
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Ah! There's the issue...*Whisky* does!


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## Mudball (Jan 21, 2022)

Can one do cardio & weights during the fasting period (in the morning?)  Is it advisable.   I had a couple of meetings cancelled today. so my morning opened up


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## Rooter (Jan 21, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Can one do cardio & weights during the fasting period (in the morning?)  Is it advisable.   I had a couple of meetings cancelled today. so my morning opened up
		
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yeh crack on! The common idea is that weights are best done second if you are doing both for weight loss.


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## hovis (Jan 21, 2022)

Rooter said:



			yeh crack on! The common idea is that weights are best done second if you are doing both for weight loss.
		
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No no no 😬. Weights always first when they are full of muscle glycogen.  You can use fat as energy for cardio but not for anaerobic exercise such as weight training.  If you do cardio first you use up all of your muscle energy and by the time you lift weights you're running on fumes


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## Mudball (Jan 21, 2022)

hovis said:



			No no no 😬. Weights always first when they are full of muscle glycogen.  You can use fat as energy for cardio but not for anaerobic exercise such as weight training.  If you do cardio first you use up all of your muscle energy and by the time you lift weights you're running on fumes
		
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Interesting...  when i had gone to a PT, he would ask to use the rowing machine or cross trainer for 7-10 mins to get the heart rate up and then move onto other weights etc.    So interesting to see this.

BTW, my initial question was can I do cardio & weights during a fasting cycle rather than during the 8 hour eating window..


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## hovis (Jan 21, 2022)

Mudball said:



			Interesting...  when i had gone to a PT, he would ask to use the rowing machine or cross trainer for 7-10 mins to get the heart rate up and then move onto other weights etc.    So interesting to see this.

BTW, my initial question was can I do cardio & weights during a fasting cycle rather than during the 8 hour eating window..
		
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Yes no problem at all.  Alot of people who intermittent fast train just before they break their fast.  It has the benefit of not binging on your first meal.  most people following training are not too hungry.
As for cardio before, What your pt has said is fine.  He's just suggesting a light warm up to get things going not a full cardio session.   I usually walk just over 1 mile to the gym for the same effect


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## Rooter (Jan 21, 2022)

hovis said:



			No no no 😬. Weights always first when they are full of muscle glycogen.  You can use fat as energy for cardio but not for anaerobic exercise such as weight training.  If you do cardio first you use up all of your muscle energy and by the time you lift weights you're running on fumes
		
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I was assuming our guinea pig is not doing a 40 minute heavy set followed by an hour in zone 4 cardio.

Its a good debate and I agree, the majority of the world would say Weights first. I refer to this small study though.. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16046343/

I think both in either order though will be of benefit to most people!!

Oh and I am in no way qualified on this topic, just a keen interest.


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## Mudball (Jan 21, 2022)

Rooter said:



			I was assuming our guinea pig is not doing a 40 minute heavy set followed *by an hour in zone 4 cardio.*

Its a good debate and I agree, the majority of the world would say Weights first. I refer to this small study though.. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16046343/

I think both in either order though will be of benefit to most people!!

Oh and I am in no way qualified on this topic, just a keen interest.
		
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Oink..  this is not a halal post.

I have no idea what the piece in bold means

My cardio is to get my bpm to 60-70% max heart rate.. so i will bike or rowing machine it.  Followed by a series of single dumbbell exercise for about 30 mins.  The weight range from 12-24 lbs
If i am doing my doing my full cardio, then I will aim for 70% max heart rate for 30 mins.  (Simply because i get my Vitality points).  The day i do 30 mins cardio, then i don't do much weights - except what i can do while on the bike.  

The single dumbbell exercise i follow is mostly from here


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## Rooter (Jan 21, 2022)

Mudball said:



			I have no idea what the piece in bold means
		
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Heart rate is common broken up into training zones, 1 through 5. 5 being the limit, 1 being very low. A lot of training for boosting CV fitness is done in Zone 2 which is anywhere from 60-80% of max HR (There are arguments on where the zones start and finish. For example, my zone 2 I work to is 131 to 143 bpm. This is where 85% of my training is done. Harder does not always mean better!! But this is a topic for another day!


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## hovis (Jan 21, 2022)

Rooter said:



			I was assuming our guinea pig is not doing a 40 minute heavy set followed by an hour in zone 4 cardio.

Its a good debate and I agree, the majority of the world would say Weights first. I refer to this small study though.. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16046343/

I think both in either order though will be of benefit to most people!!

Oh and I am in no way qualified on this topic, just a keen interest.
		
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I've seen that study before (or one like it)  If you hit the squat rack and after 10 sets you expect your legs to perform during a cardio session then you're correct (it's not going to happen). But when it comes to fat loss the goal is to reduce fat and maintain as much muscle as possible.  When targeting fat there is no requirement for cardio performance (such as a personal best 5k). Basically when you walk into a gym you are as fresh as you're going to be.  This is why you need to hit the weights first.  You need to stimulate the muscle and give your body a reason to keep it.  You can't do that if you've just blasted 5k.   But if your goal is cardio performance/improvement then absolutely do the cardio first.


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## stefanovic (Jan 21, 2022)

hovis said:



			I've seen that study before (or one like it)  If you hit the squat rack and after 10 sets you expect your legs to perform during a cardio session then you're correct (it's not going to happen). But when it comes to fat loss the goal is to reduce fat and maintain as much muscle as possible.  When targeting fat there is no requirement for cardio performance (such as a personal best 5k). Basically when you walk into a gym you are as fresh as you're going to be.  This is why you need to hit the weights first.  You need to stimulate the muscle and give your body a reason to keep it.  You can't do that if you've just blasted 5k.   But if your goal is cardio performance/improvement then absolutely do the cardio first.
		
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B/H. There has to a better way. How much time do you need to spend on this? Get a life!

Now when you're young you dream of being rich. When you're rich you dream of being young.
So at age 57 and the richest person on the planet, Jeff Bezos now wants to be young again and is investing in research into reverse ageing by cellular programming.
Whutt?

I'm more interested in a simple 10 minute sequence "to look younger, sleep soundly; waking up feeling refreshed and energetic; release from serious medical problems including difficulties with spines; relief from problems with joints; release from pain; better memory; arthritis relief; *weight loss*; improved vision; greatly improved physical strength; endurance and vigour; improved emotional and mental health; enhanced sense of well being and harmony, and very high overall energy."

Too good to be true?
I'm referring to the 5 Tibetan Rites. Many videos online.
I've been practicing them now for nearly 15 years.
Do they work?
IMO very probably.
No equipment needed.
Be your own judge after 3 months of practice.


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## hovis (Jan 21, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			B/H. There has to a better way. How much time do you need to spend on this? Get a life!

Now when you're young you dream of being rich. When you're rich you dream of being young.
So at age 57 and the richest person on the planet, Jeff Bezos now wants to be young again and is investing in research into reverse ageing by cellular programming.
Whutt?

I'm more interested in a simple 10 minute sequence "to look younger, sleep soundly; waking up feeling refreshed and energetic; release from serious medical problems including difficulties with spines; relief from problems with joints; release from pain; better memory; arthritis relief; *weight loss*; improved vision; greatly improved physical strength; endurance and vigour; improved emotional and mental health; enhanced sense of well being and harmony, and very high overall energy."

Too good to be true?
I'm referring to the 5 Tibetan Rites. Many videos online.
I've been practicing them now for nearly 15 years.
Do they work?
IMO very probably.
No equipment needed.
Be your own judge after 3 months of practice.
		
Click to expand...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 21, 2022)

stefanovic said:



			B/H. There has to a better way. How much time do you need to spend on this? Get a life!

Now when you're young you dream of being rich. When you're rich you dream of being young.
So at age 57 and the richest person on the planet, Jeff Bezos now wants to be young again and is investing in research into reverse ageing by cellular programming.
Whutt?

I'm more interested in a simple 10 minute sequence "to look younger, sleep soundly; waking up feeling refreshed and energetic; release from serious medical problems including difficulties with spines; relief from problems with joints; release from pain; better memory; arthritis relief; *weight loss*; improved vision; greatly improved physical strength; endurance and vigour; improved emotional and mental health; enhanced sense of well being and harmony, and very high overall energy."

Too good to be true?
I'm referring to the 5 Tibetan Rites. Many videos online.
I've been practicing them now for nearly 15 years.
Do they work?
IMO very probably.
No equipment needed.
Be your own judge after 3 months of practice.
		
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😂😂😂 surely if they improve your all those physical attributes and memory etc there’d be more proof than just “very probably in your opinion.”


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## Mudball (Jan 22, 2022)

hovis said:



			Yes no problem at all.  Alot of people who intermittent fast train just before they break their fast.  It has the benefit of not binging on your first meal.  *most people following training are not too hungry*.
As for cardio before, What your pt has said is fine.  He's just suggesting a light warm up to get things going not a full cardio session.   I usually walk just over 1 mile to the gym for the same effect
		
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I must say this was a revelation to me .. I thought I would be a hungry pig after training, turns out I was not. I could do with a soup or so.  Though the hunger pangs hit a few hours later.


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## Red devil (Jan 22, 2022)

I train fasted,just before I break my 36hr fast on a Wednesday and Friday never noticed any difference really. 
Weights first then cardio, tried it other way round too out of puff for the weights


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## pendodave (Jan 22, 2022)

Mudball said:



			I must say this was a revelation to me .. I thought I would be a hungry pig after training, turns out I was not. I could do with a soup or so.  Though the hunger pangs hit a few hours later.
		
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Whenever I've done exercise that was sufficiently cardio, I've never found it easy to eat a lot afterwards. Cycling and XC skiing in particular. I guess it's something to do with the blood being needed somewhere other than the stomach? That's idle speculation on my part, not science!


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## hovis (Jan 22, 2022)

pendodave said:



			Whenever I've done exercise that was sufficiently cardio, I've never found it easy to eat a lot afterwards. Cycling and XC skiing in particular.* I guess it's something to do with the blood being needed somewhere other than the stomach? *That's idle speculation on my part, not science!
		
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Spot on.  Your stomach takes up alot of energy and uses a lot of blood.


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## Mudball (Jan 24, 2022)

I tried doing a workout during the fasting cycle... it felt alright.  As mentioned earlier, did not feel  that hungry after that.

So played Squash yesterday during the fasting cycle.   Full 90 mins, with my cardio going to 80%+ for a few rallies.    i had only had a cup of tea in the morning.... but i was buzzing with energy.    Probably undid all the benefits with a big curry when i got home.  Then siesta...  

... what a rare Sunday I had..

.. now I m going to have Salt baths all week.


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## Mudball (Feb 6, 2022)

Q for those who know about such things…

Soon will be a month since I started IF. Will do a weigh in. Honestly I don’t expect to lose much. Maybe a kg or so.. which maybe rounding effect. May just be case of losing some water. 

However, I haven’t missed having breakie. I do ‘feel’ lighter. I have been doing some weights + squash and 70% cardio few times a week. 

I may have gained 10g of muscle which might have cancelled some of the weight loss. How does one measure for change in muscle mass?


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## AmandaJR (Feb 6, 2022)

The only accurate way to assess body composition and any changes in that is a Dexa Scan or similar imo.

It is also very difficult to build muscle on a calorie deficit. 

If you feel lighter and that what you're doing is having benefit then skip the scales - they often disappoint!


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## hovis (Feb 6, 2022)

Mudball said:



			I may have gained 10g of muscle which might have cancelled some of the weight loss. How does one measure for change in muscle mass?
		
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You can't really.   Did you say 10g of muscle?  As in 10 grams?
Taking measurements is the best way.  You don't tend to gain muscle around the neck and abdomen.  So measure them areas (measure on the same day when you get out of bed) also,  if your clothes are getting looser but the scales are staying the same then it's still all good.   
Weekly photo is also very handy too


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## Mudball (Feb 6, 2022)

hovis said:



			You can't really.   Did you say 10g of muscle?  As in 10 grams?
Taking measurements is the best way.  You don't tend to gain muscle around the neck and abdomen.  So measure them areas (measure on the same day when you get out of bed) also,  if your clothes are getting looser but the scales are staying the same then it's still all good.  
Weekly photo is also very handy too
		
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10g was a throwaway comment. I Like the rest of the ur comment.. very helpful. Though I don’t really plan to measure my guns. 
as you said, trouser is a bit loose. Another key is that my wedding ring starting to slide off.. 🤣


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## hovis (Feb 6, 2022)

Mudball said:



			10g was a throwaway comment. I Like the rest of the ur comment.. very helpful. Though I don’t really plan to measure my guns.
as you said, trouser is a bit loose. Another key is that my wedding ring starting to slide off.. 🤣
		
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Yep.  Wedding ring resizing is a common one.   Sounds like you've got some momentum going 👍


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## Mudball (Feb 13, 2022)

End of the first month. I have to admit , I  haven’t followed it to the letter.

Bad behaviour:

1) I skip breakie almost everyday. Every Sat it is a full English with the school dads as we wait for the boys to finish their games. 

2) still doing takeaways atleast once a week. This is more around convenience due to work-school scheduling

3) Grazing on Graze protein snack. Sometimes during the ‘fasting’ period.  


good behaviour:
1) Mostly off the sauce. Maybe a couple of beers/whiskey during the month. 
2) Cardio and a bit of (light) weights added every week 
3) 45 mins - 1 hour squash once or twice a week. 
4) Atleast 2 litres of water everyday

Result: 
1) I ‘feel’ lighter - maybe placebo
2) there is a bit of muscle mass (I think)
3) Weight has dropped a bit. Starts with a different number 🤣.  
4) have lost about 3.2% in the month. This may be just losing some water.  Mind you, I have a very high base weight to start with. 




Overall happy to continue into second month.


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## Marshy77 (Mar 23, 2022)

Thought I'd ask on here rather start another thread as there's been some really good advice given. 

Made changes to my diet since Nov/Dec, had high blood pressure so made the changes like less alcohol/more exercise/more fruit and veg and have been spinning 3 times a week doing between 45-55 miles. Lost around a stone and feel loads better in myself, clothes loosening and people starting to notice a difference. Just wondering now if I should spend some time in the gym on weights etc to keep going or stick to the spinning? Love spinning but wondered if a weight session would help with weight loss and tightening up the wobbly bits more than just spinning? 

I'm under 13st for the first time in about 5/6 years. Lightest I've been is probably around 12st which is where I want to get to and possibly beyond.


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## hovis (Mar 23, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			Thought I'd ask on here rather start another thread as there's been some really good advice given.

Made changes to my diet since Nov/Dec, had high blood pressure so made the changes like less alcohol/more exercise/more fruit and veg and have been spinning 3 times a week doing between 45-55 miles. Lost around a stone and feel loads better in myself, clothes loosening and people starting to notice a difference. Just wondering now if I should spend some time in the gym on weights etc to keep going or stick to the spinning? Love spinning but wondered if a weight session would help with weight loss and tightening up the wobbly bits more than just spinning?

I'm under 13st for the first time in about 5/6 years. Lightest I've been is probably around 12st which is where I want to get to and possibly beyond.
		
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Despite popular belief weight training isn't a good fat burner.  Weight training during fat loss is beneficial to retain the muscles you have whilst in a calories deficit. 
The Wobbly bits you refer to are not attached to muscle so no amount of weight training will tighten them.   The wobbly bits go away as your overall fat reduces.
Theres no harm in weight training (and many benefits) but it sounds like you achieving fantastic results so at the moment just stick to what you are doing


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## Mudball (Mar 23, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			Thought I'd ask on here rather start another thread as there's been some really good advice given.

Made changes to my diet since Nov/Dec, had high blood pressure so made the changes like less alcohol/more exercise/more fruit and veg and have been spinning 3 times a week doing between 45-55 miles. Lost around a stone and feel loads better in myself, clothes loosening and people starting to notice a difference. Just wondering now if I should spend some time in the gym on weights etc to keep going or stick to the spinning? Love spinning but wondered if a weight session would help with weight loss and tightening up the wobbly bits more than just spinning?

I'm under 13st for the first time in about 5/6 years. Lightest I've been is probably around 12st which is where I want to get to and possibly beyond.
		
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I was very good following my intermittent fasting in my first month.  I managed to reduce a bit of weight.  My second month has not been good.  Too much work related pressure, social drinking etc.  But i tried to skip as many breakfasts as possible.  However,  I do 30 mins of cardio about 5 days a week.  Usually this is on a stationary bike.  i realised my legs getting stronger, but the top half had/has wobbly bits.  So i added some (light) weights.   I am usually now doing single dumbbells' while I am on the bike. The heart levels goes up as soon as I pick up the weights.  I do 3 min intensive bike followed by 5 mins of slower bike.   I usually do the weights during the slower interval.  I must say, this has been terrific.  I feel some of the biceps shaping up, stronger back.   I still have plenty of wobbly bits around the tummy and love handles.  So when i get off the bike, I do some crunches.  In those 5 days, i now fit in 2 rounds of squash. The best cardio in world   None of this is perfect, but i can fit all this into my regular WFH cycles.  

Re weight, in the last month, I haven't lost any weight. But I haven't gained any either despite the booze and food overload.   I must say, I feel good. 

@hovis .. i had an interesting conversation with someone and he mentioned that one should not do a whole body exercise every day. Rather focus on group of muscles on specific days.  When i am on the bike + weights, i am pushing most of my muscles at the same time.  I do some of the core at the end.  So pretty much full body for me.   Is there a right way ?  should I be doing (nearly) full body 5 days a week?


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## hovis (Mar 23, 2022)

Mudball said:



			I was very good following my intermittent fasting in my first month.  I managed to reduce a bit of weight.  My second month has not been good.  Too much work related pressure, social drinking etc.  But i tried to skip as many breakfasts as possible.  However,  I do 30 mins of cardio about 5 days a week.  Usually this is on a stationary bike.  i realised my legs getting stronger, but the top half had/has wobbly bits.  So i added some (light) weights.   I am usually now doing single dumbbells' while I am on the bike. The heart levels goes up as soon as I pick up the weights.  I do 3 min intensive bike followed by 5 mins of slower bike.   I usually do the weights during the slower interval.  I must say, this has been terrific.  I feel some of the biceps shaping up, stronger back.   I still have plenty of wobbly bits around the tummy and love handles.  So when i get off the bike, I do some crunches.  In those 5 days, i now fit in 2 rounds of squash. The best cardio in world   None of this is perfect, but i can fit all this into my regular WFH cycles. 

Re weight, in the last month, I haven't lost any weight. But I haven't gained any either despite the booze and food overload.   I must say, I feel good.

@hovis .. i had an interesting conversation with someone and he mentioned that one should not do a whole body exercise every day. Rather focus on group of muscles on specific days.  When i am on the bike + weights, i am pushing most of my muscles at the same time.  I do some of the core at the end.  So pretty much full body for me.   Is there a right way ?  should I be doing (nearly) full body 5 days a week?
		
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 A full body workout 5 says a week is OK if your taking it relatively easy.  If you're working hard then yeh, you need to split them up.   YouTube "3 day split"   plenty of info out there for you


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## Mudball (Mar 23, 2022)

hovis said:



			A full body workout 5 says a week is OK if your taking it relatively easy.  If you're working hard then yeh, you need to split them up.   YouTube "3 day split"   plenty of info out there for you
		
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Tx.. i think it is fairly easy.  Gets cardio to about 60-70% for 30 mins.  have been increasing the dumbell size slowly.. Squash can take to 80...   Will check out 3 day split.


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## Marshy77 (May 11, 2022)

Another question. I've always gone straight to the spin room and gone hell for leather for 45/60 minutes and tried to beat my last mileage/hill climb etc. Yesterday I went up to the gym room and went on the bike up there and did a 45 minute program and tried to cycle within the 65% heart rate range and it got me questioning if I should be doing this style of training to loss weight rather than blasting it for 45 like I have been?


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## Foxholer (May 11, 2022)

Marshy77 said:



			Another question. I've always gone straight to the spin room and gone hell for leather for 45/60 minutes and tried to beat my last mileage/hill climb etc. Yesterday I went up to the gym room and went on the bike up there and did a 45 minute program and tried to cycle within the 65% heart rate range and it got me questioning if I should be doing this style of training to loss weight rather than blasting it for 45 like I have been?
		
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A much better way imo. Same reason jogging (best on grass or a machine) is better than sprints for such a goal. Though an occasional 'rip it' session can be beneficial for both results and attitude.


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## Rooter (May 12, 2022)

Foxholer said:



			A much better way imo. Same reason jogging (best on grass or a machine) is better than sprints for such a goal. Though an occasional 'rip it' session can be beneficial for both results and attitude.
		
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Agreed, 80:20 is a decent rule, where 80% of your CV work is "Easy" and the 20% is hard. and easy should be really easy!! If you run your quickest parkrun for example in 30 minutes, a 32 minute parkrun is not easy pace, should be 35+ Your Hard though, should be really hard, hill repeats, sprints, threshold etc (Same for bike/run/swim etc)


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