# Do you use a range finder/DMD?



## Bucket92 (Nov 13, 2013)

As per title, do you own a rangefinder? If so, why? If you don't, why is that? And why would you consider or not consider getting one?


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## Junior (Nov 13, 2013)

I have a garmin watch. When I decided to get one I was concious about using a range finder then nobbing it 20 yards, then having to use it again. Much prefer a descreet look at my wrist.

 I do think that a laser is the best dmd though as ive been caught out a few times at different courses, thinking the flag is in the middle when infact its at the front etc.


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## upsidedown (Nov 13, 2013)

Got a laser range finder and HiD has bought me a GPS Sotsaver tour pro which get sit's first run out today


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 13, 2013)

I've got a shotmiser which was a birthday present that tells me distance to front, middle and back of the green. I would ban anyone with a handicap over 12 from having a laser range finder and just allow them something that tells them the distance to the middle of the green. For an 24 handicapper to be worried about whether their second shot is 157 or 158 yards to the flag is ridiculous. At that level you only need to know the distance to the middle of the green. You aren't good enough to be worrying about trying to hit it close. Just get it on the green and then try not to 3 putt. Or in most cases miss the green by as little as possible and then try to get it up and down at best or on the green and 2 putts for bogey at worst.

(P.S. My handicap is 18 so this is not a rant by a low handicapper against higher handicappers)


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## Hobbit (Nov 13, 2013)

Skycaddie SGX. I switched from a Skycaddie 2.5 to a laser early in the year. I couldn't get away with the laser at all - wind buffeting me and the flag, laser picking up the bank/bush behind the green.

For me, its not long iron woods etc unless there is a hazard at driving distance, or a hazard where I'd be aiming my 2nd shot on a par 5. Its the wedge distances, i.e. is it a 50* 55* or 60*...?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2013)

No AND I'm not considering getting one. So really two votes?


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## Old Skier (Nov 13, 2013)

Does anyone know how the laser range finders work? I worked with laser sighting systems for over 22 years and: 

a: Treated them as a weapon as they could cause serious injury
b: Required a stable platform to operate from so that you could actually hitthe point that you were aiming at.

Now I appreciate the lasers that I used were a bit more powerful but could the current golf craze for lasers do any harm to other users on the course if just for a bit of fun someone decides to laser another players see how far away theyare.

And what are you aiming at as those I ask say the flag stick, so unless the laser is producing a wide beam I would be more than surprised if there are many golfers at over 20 feet capable of hitting a golf bag let alone a flag stick.

Interested in the technology behind this.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2013)

Bucket92 said:



			And why would you...not consider getting one?
		
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Don't get me started...


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## Old Skier (Nov 13, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Don't get me started...

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SLH has the correct answer IMHO as the majority of golfers are of a handicap greater than the ability required to know how far they are going to hit any particular shot.  This is only my opinion and I don't way wish to infer that anyone on this site is not an ace golfer and knows to the exact 10 foot how far they are going to hit the ball just incase it gets me in any deeper poo.


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## m10johnson (Nov 13, 2013)

Use a range finder. Very useful when you only get 150 to the middle of the green on most courses. Sometimes the 150 markers are in the wrong place.


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## Imurg (Nov 13, 2013)

Old Skier said:



			SLH has the correct answer IMHO as the majority of golfers are of a handicap greater than the ability required to know how far they are going to hit any particular shot.  This is only my opinion and I don't way wish to infer that anyone on this site is not an ace golfer and knows to the exact 10 foot how far they are going to hit the ball just incase it gets me in any deeper poo.
		
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This old chestnut again.......
A DMD is nothing more than a means of determining HOW FAR you want to hit it, how far away something is
You don't have to be able to hit it exactly that far to benefit from one.

When you play, what is the first thing you want to know about a shot?
It's how far you want it to go.
How do you do that?
You can guess it, work it out or use a DMD - THEY ARE ALL THE SAME.......


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## Robobum (Nov 13, 2013)

I've stopped using my laser after killing two of my playing partners. I also stole a powakaddy from four fairways across by using it as a traction beam. I have written to Barry Took, Watchdog and the R&A to get them banned.

Yawn


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## woody69 (Nov 13, 2013)

Imurg said:



			This old chestnut again.......
A DMD is nothing more than a means of determining HOW FAR you want to hit it, how far away something is
You don't have to be able to hit it exactly that far to benefit from one.

When you play, what is the first thing you want to know about a shot?
It's how far you want it to go.
How do you do that?
You can guess it, work it out or use a DMD - THEY ARE ALL THE SAME.......
		
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Completely agree. I have the S1 and I think it is great as it gives me the confidence that to hit the front or middle of the green I need to take my club that gets me X yards, but I still have Y yards to the back, so it tells me how much margin of error I have to work with, and sometimes that means I can take an extra club and swing easy. E.g. green is 130 yards to the middle so about a 9 iron for me, but 150 to the back so lets take an 8 to make sure I get on. Gives me confidence and I'm hitting more greens as a result.


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## Robobum (Nov 13, 2013)

Loads of our senior section use lasers too. Not one of them has had children since joining the seniors section!!!!!

Coincidence?


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## sawtooth (Nov 13, 2013)

I have just started to use one for the first time. Played well and it gave me more confidence knowing the distance versus estimating the distance to a pin. Its only a free app for my phone but its surprisingly accurate and useful. I think I will always use something now going forward.

Next I need to calibrate my scoring irons so I know exactly what distance they are half, 3/4 and full swings.

I was a skeptic but I'm coming around to the idea that it will save me shots.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 13, 2013)

It depends. I have measure how far I hit my clubs ON AVERAGE and so I have an idea what club to use once I know the yardage. Of course you need to add in the variables like wind but it does make selection easier. Knowing you have the right club gives me confidence and that has to be a good thing in helping make a good and commited swing. In my opinion a DMD comes into its own from <100 yards and in knowing how far I have and which wedge to choose based on the distance, position and shot I want to play. Definitely in the DMD is a good thing camp


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## Linnets (Nov 13, 2013)

I have a Garmin S2 watch and wouldn't be without it now, gives me front middle and back of the green which tells me my margin of error, also gives me distances to doglegs and distance to either 100 or 150 yard lay ups. I am considering getting a laser rangefinder to supplement it though, one because I like gadgets and technology and two because sometimes it would be nice to know distance to hazards such as ponds, ditches and fairway bunkers.


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## woody69 (Nov 13, 2013)

Linnets said:



			I have a Garmin S2 watch and wouldn't be without it now, gives me front middle and back of the green which tells me my margin of error, also gives me distances to doglegs and distance to either 100 or 150 yard lay ups. I am considering getting a laser rangefinder to supplement it though, one because I like gadgets and technology and two because sometimes it would be nice to know distance to hazards such as ponds, ditches and fairway bunkers.
		
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I believe the S3 has hazards etc so if you like the S2, you could just upgrade.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Nov 13, 2013)

I have the bushnell tour V3, Got it this year, 

Has it improved my game? Doubtful. 

Has DMD's slowed the game up! Yes without a doubt.


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## Old Skier (Nov 13, 2013)

m10johnson said:



			Use a range finder. Very useful when you only get 150 to the middle of the green on most courses. Sometimes the 150 markers are in the wrong place.
		
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Cheers, but what are you aiming at and if they are in the wrong place are you informing the club officials.


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## Scrindle (Nov 13, 2013)

I do not have a DMD/laser rangefinder and am a high handicap player.  That said, I know exactly how far each of my irons goes and they are the clubs that save me the most shots so I might benefit from one (driving and putting lets me down typically).

To be honest though I just use the range markers on the course to judge distance.  If I'm on the 150y marker I know a 7i will land me smack in the middle of the green.  100y marker is a PW.  I estimate which other clubs I use depending on how far in front or behind these two markers I am, and then allow for whether the wind is behind or in front of me and how strong it is blowing.

I also find that if I duff my drive for instance, I typically won't go for my highest iron and try and smack it as close to the green as possible because that then leaves uncertainty in club choice (the further towards the green from the 100y PW marker I am, the more I struggle to determine what club I should use).  Generally I will look for the 100y or 150y marker, work out my distance to that and take a club to land me on or near to that line so I can use a full swing 7i or PW to the green which I know I can hit well.

My iron shots go high and come down like a meteor with a bit of check to stop dead which is nice, and why I'm generally confident at choosing clubs from any given distance within my range (when I'm striking the ball well that is - having a bit of the yips at the moment).

I've always been surprised that DMD/LRFs are allowed in competition.  I always thought part of the game was judging the distance to the flag and choosing the correct club to get you there accordingly, rather than have a computer tell you what the distance is.


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## Linnets (Nov 13, 2013)

woody69 said:



			I believe the S3 has hazards etc so if you like the S2, you could just upgrade.
		
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i deliberately didn't buy the S3 because after trying it I hated the touch screen, hence the S2.


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## brendy (Nov 13, 2013)

So when you have used your GPS, confirmed it is indeed 148 and not 149 yards, selected your shiney new 5 iron and swung for all you are worth,  sent it 70 yards skuttling along the floor....what else can you possibly blame? 

No GPS here thanks, Id rather have something to blame other than my mediocre swing.


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## Khamelion (Nov 13, 2013)

I have one, a Bushnell Tour V3, only use it when in wedge range, as I have 4 wedges in my bag and I know how far I can get with each, it does help selecting the right club.

It doesn't help when I fat the shot or skull it though.


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## Old Skier (Nov 13, 2013)

As the GPS at best can only be guaranteed to beaccurate to within 10m there may be a few on here missing out on some very prestigeâ€™swins.  Roll on Galileo I say.


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## Wayman (Nov 13, 2013)

Bushnell v2 tour for me best thing I bought


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## mcbroon (Nov 13, 2013)

I don't have one and I have been vaguely in the anti-DMD camp since they came on the scene.  Not because I think it's cheating or anything like that, I just think there's a certain skill in working out your distances either with your eyes or with a little help from 200/150/100 markers.  DMDs just take that element of judgement away from the game, in my view.  

Having said that, I played with my uncle recently at an away course and he was giving me accurate yardages with his.  Hit my irons like lasers that day.  Might have been coincidence - maybe I just had one of those days - but it did make me think about the benefits of having one, particularly for away courses.  

So, having been kind of against them to begin with, I'm considering getting one.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 13, 2013)

Lincoln Quaker said:



*Has DMD's slowed the game up! Yes without a doubt.*

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Absolute nonsense in fact in many cases it improves the pace of play. It's like anything else in the game, if done correctly it doesn't slow things down at all. I'll take mine out as I walk up the fairway/deep rough and by the time I reach my ball I've seen the figures count down to the distance to the middle of the green. At this point I can put it away, take out the club I need and hit the ball straight away. This should in fact speed things up. Rather than walking to the ball, looking for the 150 yard marker, pacing out how many steps behind it I am then going back and selecting a club. It's like leaving your bag on the correct side of the green, marking your card while your partners tee off and being ready to play when it's your turn. It's about how things are done rather than what things are done that affects speed of play.


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## One Planer (Nov 13, 2013)

Bucket92 said:



			As per title, do you own a rangefinder? If so, why? If you don't, why is that? And why would you consider or not consider getting one?
		
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Do I own one? No.

Would I consider owning one? No.


Reasons:

Firstly - What exactly was wrong with the old course course planners? They show distances off the tee. Distance from green for landmarks. Distances to hazards.There are also, on most courses I've played, markers on the course. Be it steaks at the side of fairways denoting a distance to the green. Sprinkler head covers with yardages on. All manor of signage to le me know how far out I am.

Secondly - When do you stop using them? We played The Izacc Walton a few weeks back. The 6th is a  514 yards par 5 off the whites. No hazards, yet out playing partner used his GPS off the tee, why I have no idea. Gets  to his ball to get a yardage to the green. Why? He has over 250 to the green so is unlikey to reach. There was a hazard 165 from his position so he takes his 5 wood (To carry the hazard). Caught it a tad heavy and flew it straight into the bunker 

Where as myself and anothe of our group with no GPS hit our drives, used the course planner for a guesstimate yardsage, hit mid iron, followed by wedge to be on in 3.

Do you use them to work out an 80 yard pitch? What do you do when you're inside your shortest clubs distance, guess?

I'm not Anti-GPS, despite my above rantings If you want to use them and enjoy the benefits they bring to you, great! They just aren't for me and if I'm being honest, in my view, detract from the game a little.

Hope this answers your queston


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## Robobum (Nov 13, 2013)

They are illegal
They are cheating
They slow down pace of play
They don't do hackers any good
They are against the spirit of the game
They are dangerous!

I use a Bushnell V3


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## woody69 (Nov 13, 2013)

Gareth said:



			Do I own one? No.

Would I consider owning one? No.


Reasons:

Firstly - What exactly was wrong with the old course course planners? They show distances off the tee. Distance from green for landmarks. Distances to hazards.There are also, on most courses I've played, markers on the course. Be it steaks at the side of fairways denoting a distance to the green. Sprinkler head covers with yardages on. All manor of signage to le me know how far out I am.
		
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What's wrong with using using hickory golf clubs instead of new more modern advances? Nothing, but there have been advances so why not use them instead?



Gareth said:



			Secondly - When do you stop using them? We played The Izacc Walton a few weeks back. The 6th is a  514 yards par 5 off the whites. No hazards, yet out playing partner used his GPS off the tee, why I have no idea. Gets  to his ball to get a yardage to the green. Why? He has over 250 to the green so is unlikey to reach. There was a hazard 165 from his position so he takes his 5 wood (To carry the hazard). Caught it a tad heavy and flew it straight into the bunker 

Where as myself and anothe of our group with no GPS hit our drives, used the course planner for a guesstimate yardsage, hit mid iron, followed by wedge to be on in 3.
		
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You can give a man a tool, but if he wants to use it like a div, then that's the users fault, not the tool. 




Gareth said:



			Do you use them to work out an 80 yard pitch? What do you do when you're inside your shortest clubs distance, guess?
		
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Yep. 80 yards is a full SW for me so if I knew I had 80 to the middle and the flag was at the back and I know from my S1 that is say 100 yards then yeah I'd use it for an 80 yard pitch. 

If I was inside my shortest club distance I'd probably still take a glance to see how much I have to the back of the green to play with.


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## One Planer (Nov 13, 2013)

woody69 said:



			What's wrong with using using hickory golf clubs instead of new more modern advances? Nothing, but there have been advances so why not use them instead?



You can give a man a tool, but if he wants to use it like a div, then that's the users fault, not the tool. 




Yep. 80 yards is a full SW for me so if I knew I had 80 to the middle and the flag was at the back and I know from my S1 that is say 100 yards then yeah I'd use it for an 80 yard pitch. 

If I was inside my shortest club distance I'd probably still take a glance to see how much I have to the back of the green to play with.
		
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You seem to be confusing my *opinion* with fact 

Can I ask how you gain a yardage in competition play where they aren't allowed?


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## mab (Nov 13, 2013)

I've used one for years and genuinely consider it one of my most imprtant pieces of kit.

I use it for all distances. Am I 74 yards from the pin or 83 yards? Am I 207 yards from the pin or 224 yards? These distances means different clubs for me and it makes a real difference.

They absolutely do not slow down the pace of play, assuming they are used sensibly / correctly. By the time I reach my ball and set down my bag, the rangefinder is already pushed up to my eye and the distance obtained within a couple of seconds. I will have already assessed the wind and terrain to understand how they impact distance (half a club more, half a club less, etc.). This is no slower and most likely quicker than searching for the nearest distance marker (often on sprinkler heads or fairway discs these days, rather than marker posts - what's that all about!?) or consulting a yardage book and diciphering your remaining distance... neither of which can even hold a candle to the accuracy of the rangefinder.

You may question the benefits to those who don't know how far they hit the ball, those who use it to tell them they have 267yards to the pin when they can only drive the ball 220yards of a tee, etc., etc. and I understand that. However, when used correctly, they are fast and accurate.

I get that some people don't like them, but the 'it slows down play' or 'being capable of eyeballing a yardage to the nearest yard is a skill and using a gizmo is cheating' type comments are somewhat ridiculous in my opinion.


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## mab (Nov 13, 2013)

Gareth said:



			Can I ask how you gain a yardage in competition play where they aren't allowed?
		
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They are legal for use in competitions at most courses, I believe.

Certainly ALL of those I've played over the past couple of years...


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## tugglesf239 (Nov 13, 2013)

Golf Shot GPS on my phone. Cracking purchase and only Â£20

Thankfully my club allows these devices if used only for the GPS component.


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## Beezerk (Nov 13, 2013)

tugglesf239 said:



			Golf Shot GPS on my phone. Cracking purchase and only Â£20

Thankfully my club allows these devices if used only for the GPS component.
		
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I tried one of the free ones on my phone the other week, I was stood on the 150 marker and the app was showing something daft like 120 to the front of the green.
The hole is uphill so not sure if that made a difference, I can see why it could make the reading incorrect but not sure if contours are taken into account within the software.


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## One Planer (Nov 13, 2013)

mab said:



			They are legal for use in competitions at most courses, I believe.

Certainly ALL of those I've played over the past couple of years...
		
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I thought this was not allowed under rule 14-3?

_The use of distance measuring devices during a stipulated round remains contrary to the Rules of Golf â€“ the penalty being disqualification under Rule 14-3 (Artificial Devices, Unusual Equipment and Unusual Use of Equipment _


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## woody69 (Nov 13, 2013)

Gareth said:



			You seem to be confusing my *opinion* with fact 

Can I ask how you gain a yardage in competition play where they aren't allowed?
		
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Oh, I do apologise. I didn't realise that you weren't open to the possibility of hearing a counter argument to the reasons you have specified as to why I believe they are a good idea. All that being said, I'm not sure I mentioned anywhere in my post that what you was stating was fact and not opinion?

At my club, they are allowed via a LR, but if I was to play in one where they were not I would of course to revert to the traditional methods as you have stipulated in your post. But hey, if I had a choice, why would I want to limit myself?


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## woody69 (Nov 13, 2013)

Gareth said:



			I thought this was not allowed under rule 14-3?

_The use of distance measuring devices during a stipulated round remains contrary to the Rules of Golf â€“ the penalty being disqualification under Rule 14-3 (Artificial Devices, Unusual Equipment and Unusual Use of Equipment _

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However, since January 2006, a Committee can permit the use of some such devices via a Local Rule.


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## One Planer (Nov 13, 2013)

woody69 said:



			Oh, I do apologise. I didn't realise that you weren't open to the possibility of hearing a counter argument to the reasons you have specified as to why I believe they are a good idea. All that being said, I'm not sure I mentioned anywhere in my post that what you was stating was fact and not opinion?

At my club, they are allowed via a LR, but if I was to play in one where they were not I would of course to revert to the traditional methods as you have stipulated in your post. But hey, if I had a choice, why would I want to limit myself?
		
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That's your choice pal :thup:

In my opinion it takes something from the game, a bit of the skill I suppose when it comes to judging a distance and selecting a club.

They are of benefit to folk, no doubt, but anything inside 100 yards, I can't really see the point.

I suppose the test is in how well they work for you.

Can I ask. What was your handicap when you first started using a DMD, and what is it now?


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## Region3 (Nov 13, 2013)

Old Skier said:



As the GPS at best can only be guaranteed to beaccurate to within 10m there may be a few on here missing out on some very prestigeâ€™swins.  Roll on Galileo I say.

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Why do you say they are only accurate to +/-10m, when the manufacturer claims +/-1m?
Surely they can't advertise the fact if it were a lie?

And just out of curiosity, what has Galileo got to do with anything?


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## Region3 (Nov 13, 2013)

tugglesf239 said:



			Golf Shot GPS on my phone. Cracking purchase and only Â£20

Thankfully my club allows these devices if used only for the GPS component.
		
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Not that it matters one jot to me, and no doubt plenty of clubs do it, but they aren't allowed to allow smartphones used as DMD's according to the R&A.


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## JamesR (Nov 13, 2013)

I have a Garmin G5.

The reason I bought it was to measure distances. Particularly on the golf course.


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## chrisd (Nov 13, 2013)

I have a Garmin DMD and a Bushnell v3 laser

I want to know how far the shot required is, the shot that I hit is down to ability and may just vary from the information acquired by the devices!

It definitely doesn't slow the game down - I used to have to pace distances from, say, the 150 yard markers or other known distances, now I blip it in a couple of seconds!


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## JamesR (Nov 13, 2013)

Bucket92 said:



			As per title, do you own a rangefinder? If so, why? If you don't, why is that? And why would you consider or not consider getting one?
		
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Do I own one? - Yes.
Why? - to measure distances on the golf course, quickly & easily.


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## CMAC (Nov 13, 2013)

I had a Sky Caddie, then a Garmin S1

I now use the yardage markers and a very sophisticated computer that is uncannily accurate, yes my eyes and brain.

Too often I found the skycaddie not catching up and both units not showing the same yardage as my playing partners who also had DMD's.

I see it being useful on courses where the markers are way out or none at all, and very occasionally when I really dont have a clue on the distance i.e a big elevation, blind shot or dogleg.

Overall I dont have any issues whether someone uses one or not, you still have to 'make the shot'


I do laugh (inwardly of course) when I see someone with a GPS and Laser


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## woody69 (Nov 13, 2013)

Gareth said:



			That's your choice pal :thup:

In my opinion it takes something from the game, a bit of the skill I suppose when it comes to judging a distance and selecting a club.

They are of benefit to folk, no doubt, but anything inside 100 yards, I can't really see the point.

I suppose the test is in how well they work for you.

Can I ask. What was your handicap when you first started using a DMD, and what is it now?
		
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I've had mixed results. I'm was off 21, have played in 1 comp since I got it and I'm now at 21.1. That being said, I _feel_ my iron play has improved a lot as has my course management and I have a strong feeling I'm close to a decent improvement as many "bounce" games with mates has produced some decent golf. It has helped my course management as it helps me think more about approach shots. Say I'm on a par 5 and 280 yards from the green, previously that would have been a 5 or 3 wood out and try to hit as far as I can to get up to the green. Now I'm thinking, you know what I want to be around 130 yards for my best approach club, so I need to hit a 6 or a 7 here to get the 150. 

I have a friend who played off 6 (5.8). He got one and has now been cut to 5 after 1 comp as well stating the DMD helped him and gave him confidence he was hitting the right club.


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## blackpuddinmonster (Nov 13, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			No AND I'm not considering getting one. So really two votes?
		
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Ditto


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2013)

m10johnson said:



			Use a range finder. Very useful when you only get 150 to the middle of the green on most courses. Sometimes the 150 markers are in the wrong place.
		
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...and so I cry 'FOUL - unfair advantage' on behalf of those without a DMD.  Golf is a game of uncertainty - anything that removes some uncertainly for one group of players but not another is clearly providing an advanatge to the have's.  But I said I wouldn't start - as my position is clear and I know I am in a minority of a very few.


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## USER1999 (Nov 13, 2013)

I use a laser, and when I can be bothered to charge it, a GPS too. Why not. I derive very little satisfaction from guessing yardages, and then proving myself right however. I'm there to play golf, not some unrelated smugness test.

inot yet seen a pro guessing yardages either, or using the rubbish book of hieroglyphics you can buy in the pro shop, last updated in 1965. Guess what? They have a better book, and annotate it during practice rounds using the much derided dmd.


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## One Planer (Nov 13, 2013)

woody69 said:



			I've had mixed results. I'm was off 21, have played in 1 comp since I got it and I'm now at 21.1. That being said, I _feel_ my iron play has improved a lot as has my course management and I have a strong feeling I'm close to a decent improvement as many "bounce" games with mates has produced some decent golf. It has helped my course management as it helps me think more about approach shots. Say I'm on a par 5 and 280 yards from the green, previously that would have been a 5 or 3 wood out and try to hit as far as I can to get up to the green. Now I'm thinking, you know what I want to be around 130 yards for my best approach club, so I need to hit a 6 or a 7 here to get the 150. 

I have a friend who played off 6 (5.8). He got one and has now been cut to 5 after 1 comp as well stating the DMD helped him and gave him confidence he was hitting the right club.
		
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That's the whole point.  Same as anything in golf, if you feel it gives you and edge, great.

I have a friend who has gone from an avid GPS user to not using anything. His reasoning was simple. confusion.

His words not mine.

He was stood in the middle of a Par 4 or par 5 fairway with his exact yardage on a windy day (Wind helping). He knew how far he had to get the ball to travel, but then had to account for the wind. Then the conundrum started. 

Do I play less club with a full swing and hit it high and let the wind play with it?

Do I club up and play keep it low and play it under the wind?

Do I play with the correct club and play a 3/4 shot?

He knew his exact yardage but had multiple options to get it there effectively, with everything centred around that yardage Â±10 yards for landing and run . Information overload (... Again, his words).

Now he just steps up to the ball, has a 'feel' for how far he hits each club. Judges the conditions, plays his shot.

He plays off 4.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 13, 2013)

We used to use stroke savers in the scratch league matches, but some clubs would hide them so we could not have them, and some would not answer the simple question are your distances to the front or middle of the green. So yes these devices are great, I have a sonocaddie v300 and a golfbuddy world (which was a prize), plus a laser. Yes I have the full array, but I think the Laser is great for mid to short irons (especially practice (you can work out half swing distances with each club and turn it all into a mechanical process) The GPS is great for giving you the lay of the land, accuracy is good the Sonocaddie uses up to 10 sats so the calculation can be verified. The golfbuddy is good if you are showing up somewhere on the off chance as it has maps in it.
I would never consider a sat nav that only gave distance, hole layout is critical and distances to dog legs , bunkers etc


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## blackpuddinmonster (Nov 13, 2013)

tugglesf239 said:



			Golf Shot GPS on my phone. Cracking purchase and only Â£20

Thankfully my club allows these devices if used only for the GPS component.
		
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I'd show this flow-chart to whoever organises your comps: if i was you. :thup:
	



Thats if you can suss out how to enlarge it so you can actually read it. God i'am thick. 
Anyway if you google R&A DMD Flowchart you'll see what i mean.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 13, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and so I cry 'FOUL - unfair advantage' on behalf of those without a DMD.  Golf is a game of uncertainty - anything that removes some uncertainly for one group of players but not another is clearly providing an advanatge to the have's.  But I said I wouldn't start - as my position is clear and I know I am in a minority of a very few.
		
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What a ridiculous argument (no offence). You have the choice as to whether you use one or not. Just because you choose not to doesn't mean others shouldn't. It's not an "unfair advantage" if the opportunity to use one is open to all but some choose not to take advantage of it. In the same way it is legal to have a caddie for a round but I never do. I wouldn't cry about it if my opponent chose to use one. I had the chance and didn't take it. And where do you draw the line? If one player can afford to have 3 lessons per week but I don't have the time or money does that mean I can say they have an unfair advantage. Or if I have to buy 2nd hand clubs because I can't afford new ones but someone with more money gets all the latest technological advances do they have an unfair advantage? As long as the choice/ability to use a piece of equipment is open to all then it's not an unfair advantage if you don't have one. It may be an advantage but it's not an unfair one.


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## Old Skier (Nov 13, 2013)

Region3 said:



			Why do you say they are only accurate to +/-10m, when the manufacturer claims +/-1m?
Surely they can't advertise the fact if it were a lie?

And just out of curiosity, what has Galileo got to do with anything?
		
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Signal for GPS is received from a limited number of sats which transmit weak signals that can be downgraded by weather. Manufacturers of many things claim a lot, there was a time when people believed car makers mpg figures. As for Galileo, new system slowly being launched which is said to make GPS redundant as it will be more accurate. We can then go off and by some more shinny new toys.


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## CMAC (Nov 13, 2013)

actually in hindsight (wonderful thing) a Laser would be very useful at the course range using proper balls.


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## Old Skier (Nov 13, 2013)

ColchesterFC said:



			What a ridiculous argument (no offence). You have the choice as to whether you use one or not. Just because you choose not to doesn't mean others shouldn't. It's not an "unfair advantage" if the opportunity to use one is open to all but some choose not to take advantage of it. In the same way it is legal to have a caddie for a round but I never do. I wouldn't cry about it if my opponent chose to use one. I had the chance and didn't take it. And where do you draw the line? If one player can afford to have 3 lessons per week but I don't have the time or money does that mean I can say they have an unfair advantage. Or if I have to buy 2nd hand clubs because I can't afford new ones but someone with more money gets all the latest technological advances do they have an unfair advantage? As long as the choice/ability to use a piece of equipment is open to all then it's not an unfair advantage if you don't have one. It may be an advantage but it's not an unfair one.
		
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I'm not sure I go as so far as cry foul but in an abstract kind of way the powers to be banned buggy's in comps mainly because there normally aren't enough to go round thereby giving an unfair advantage to those using them. If you cannot afford rangefinders  etc that is giving some an unfair advantage if they work.


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## Region3 (Nov 13, 2013)

Old Skier said:



			Signal for GPS is received from a limited number of sats which transmit weak signals that can be downgraded by weather. Manufacturers of many things claim a lot, there was a time when people believed car makers mpg figures. As for Galileo, new system slowly being launched which is said to make GPS redundant as it will be more accurate. We can then go off and by some more shinny new toys.
		
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Ah, I was thinking Galileo the person rather than a codename for a new system. Thanks.

As for the GPS accuracy, I've obviously not got it quite right in my head how they work. Something to do when I next get bored at work. 

Back to the OP, I have a laser and 2 GPS's.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 13, 2013)

Old Skier said:



			I'm not sure I go as so far as cry foul but in an abstract kind of way the powers to be banned buggy's in comps mainly because there normally aren't enough to go round thereby giving an unfair advantage to those using them. If you cannot afford rangefinders  etc that is giving some an unfair advantage if they work.
		
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With buggies being banned it means no-one can use them and therefore there is no advantage gained. I can't afford a brand new driver and irons so am I at a disadvantage and should everyone be banned from buying new clubs? An unfair advantage would be me turning up to play a match and insisting my opponent could only use Pinnacle distance balls and hickory shafted clubs while I used all the mod cons. As long as it's a level playing field then it's not an "unfair" advantage. I accept that I find having one an advantage but just because some people don't want one doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed.


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## Region3 (Nov 13, 2013)

Old Skier said:



			Signal for GPS is received from a limited number of sats which transmit weak signals that can be downgraded by weather. Manufacturers of many things claim a lot, there was a time when people believed car makers mpg figures. As for Galileo, new system slowly being launched which is said to make GPS redundant as it will be more accurate. We can then go off and by some more shinny new toys.
		
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Regarding your earlier questions about lasers...

They are class 1 devices, which are classified as 'eye-safe'. You can't do any damage with them, even when magnified.

I don't really know how they work, but I guess the beam must be wider than those of the devices you've been used to. Mine has a x6 magnification lens and it's not a problem getting a signal from a person at 300yds. I tend to struggle with flags over 250, but at that distance it doesn't matter.

From what I've read, in a crowded scene the device gets multiple signals back (ie the flag, and bushes, trees etc behind it) and displays the closest of those. It's only a problem if you're aiming through branches at a flag beyond them.
That's how my Nikon works anyhow. I believe Bushnells have a mode that has to be selected in order to read the closest signal.


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## Spikey (Nov 13, 2013)

blackpuddinmonster said:



			I'd show this flow-chart to whoever organises your comps: if i was you. :thup:
	View attachment 8222



Thats if you can suss out how to enlarge it so you can actually read it. God i'am thick. 
Anyway if you google R&A DMD Flowchart you'll see what i mean.
		
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Not sure from this if you're pro or anti phone-based DMDs, but my understanding of the the R&A flowchart (having had the issue come up at committee) was that there was no breach of the local rule if:

   1) The app itself can't measure anything other than distance (which they can't - not seen a phone yet that can itself measure temperature or wind speed).
   2) Other information (temp, wind, etc) was only available via an external web-based app.

The other thing this threw up was the fact that some electric trolleys (motocaddy?) have thermometers built in. How do these stand in relation to rule 14-3??


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## Old Skier (Nov 13, 2013)

Region3 said:



			Regarding your earlier questions about lasers...

They are class 1 devices, which are classified as 'eye-safe'. You can't do any damage with them, even when magnified.

I don't really know how they work, but I guess the beam must be wider than those of the devices you've been used to. Mine has a x6 magnification lens and it's not a problem getting a signal from a person at 300yds. I tend to struggle with flags over 250, but at that distance it doesn't matter.

From what I've read, in a crowded scene the device gets multiple signals back (ie the flag, and bushes, trees etc behind it) and displays the closest of those. It's only a problem if you're aiming through branches at a flag beyond them.
That's how my Nikon works anyhow. I believe Bushnells have a mode that has to be selected in order to read the closest signal.
		
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Thanks for the info, very interesting, as it uses such a weak signal I would suspect users should be aware of false info that might be received in wet, misty and foggy conditions.


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## Old Skier (Nov 13, 2013)

Spikey said:



			Not sure from this if you're pro or anti phone-based DMDs, but my understanding of the the R&A flowchart (having had the issue come up at committee) was that there was no breach of the local rule if:

   1) The app itself can't measure anything other than distance (which they can't - not seen a phone yet that can itself measure temperature or wind speed).
   2) Other information (temp, wind, etc) was only available via an external web-based app.

The other thing this threw up was the fact that some electric trolleys (motocaddy?) have thermometers built in. How do these stand in relation to rule 14-3??
		
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Phone devices are banned from use in our county comps and clubs have been advised not to allow them in club comps to avoid any confusion.


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## Robobum (Nov 13, 2013)

Old Skier said:



			Thanks for the info, very interesting, as it uses such a weak signal I would suspect users should be aware of false info that might be received in wet, misty and foggy conditions.
		
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If you use the when its foggy, they come back with 1yd.


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## londonlewis (Nov 13, 2013)

I use a garmin S2. 
bought it as I was the recipient of an insurance pay out after my old clubs were stolen from my garage. 
Good piece of kit, handy to have, would recommend a DMD to most golfers.


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## Hobbit (Nov 13, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and so I cry 'FOUL - unfair advantage' on behalf of those without a DMD.  Golf is a game of uncertainty - anything that removes some uncertainly for one group of players but not another is clearly providing an advanatge to the have's.  But I said I wouldn't start - as my position is clear and I know I am in a minority of a very few.
		
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You could choose to leave your driver at home. Would you cry foul on all those players who've brought their drivers?


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## Imurg (Nov 13, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...  Golf is a game of uncertainty .
		
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Funny, I thought Golf was a game of skill.......


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## Region3 (Nov 13, 2013)

Robobum said:



			If you use the when its foggy, they come back with 1yd.
		
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Mine always says 11.5yds. 

I find fog and mist the worst. Light rain it will sometimes work.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2013)

Gareth said:



			That's the whole point.  Same as anything in golf, if you feel it gives you and edge, great.

I have a friend who has gone from an avid GPS user to not using anything. His reasoning was simple. confusion.

His words not mine.

He was stood in the middle of a Par 4 or par 5 fairway with his exact yardage on a windy day (Wind helping). He knew how far he had to get the ball to travel, but then had to account for the wind. Then the conundrum started. 

Do I play less club with a full swing and hit it high and let the wind play with it?

Do I club up and play keep it low and play it under the wind?

Do I play with the correct club and play a 3/4 shot?

He knew his exact yardage but had multiple options to get it there effectively, with everything centred around that yardage Â±10 yards for landing and run . Information overload (... Again, his words).

*Now he just steps up to the ball, has a 'feel' for how far he hits each club. Judges the conditions, plays his shot.*

He plays off 4.
		
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Now *this* I like very much indeed.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 13, 2013)

I have one and I will continue to use it until the R&A tells me I can't.

So many untrue arguments in this thread.

1)  They slow down play.  No, they actually speed up play as it stops all the pacing out to yardage markers and working out how far on the green a flag is.

2) They are cheating.  Utter rubbish! Everyone has the opportunity to use one if they wish, it's their choice. And those that do use them in comps are not gaining an advantage because if it improves their scoring their handicap will come down accordingly. Whatever next....people trying to ban long putters?  

DMD's are just another instance of technology moving the game forward like oversize drivers, multilayer balls, wet weather gloves, custom tee peg fittings etc etc.


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## One Planer (Nov 13, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Now *this* I like very much indeed.
		
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Pretty much how I play :thup:


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 13, 2013)

Gareth said:



			That's the whole point.  Same as anything in golf, if you feel it gives you and edge, great.

I have a friend who has gone from an avid GPS user to not using anything. His reasoning was simple. confusion.

His words not mine.

He was stood in the middle of a Par 4 or par 5 fairway with his exact yardage on a windy day (Wind helping). He knew how far he had to get the ball to travel, but then had to account for the wind. Then the conundrum started. 

Do I play less club with a full swing and hit it high and let the wind play with it?

Do I club up and play keep it low and play it under the wind?

Do I play with the correct club and play a 3/4 shot?

He knew his exact yardage but had multiple options to get it there effectively, with everything centred around that yardage Â±10 yards for landing and run . Information overload (... Again, his words).

Now he just steps up to the ball, has a 'feel' for how far he hits each club. Judges the conditions, plays his shot.

He plays off 4.
		
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This is actually pretty pointless because your friend would still have all the same calculations to factor in to his club selection whether he had an accurate yardage or a guesstimate. If he has 167 yards or 'approx 170' he still has to work out and execute the shot he wants to play.


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## G.U.R (Nov 13, 2013)

They are handy, whether they are worth the money companies charge for them is debatable.


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## woody69 (Nov 13, 2013)

drive4show said:



			This is actually pretty pointless because your friend would still have all the same calculations to factor in to his club selection whether he had an accurate yardage or a guesstimate. If he has 167 yards or 'approx 170' he still has to work out and execute the shot he wants to play.
		
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Yeah, I didn't want to state the obvious with Gareth's reply


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2013)

ColchesterFC said:



			With buggies being banned it means no-one can use them and therefore there is no advantage gained. I can't afford a brand new driver and irons so am I at a disadvantage and should everyone be banned from buying new clubs? An unfair advantage would be me turning up to play a match and insisting my opponent could only use Pinnacle distance balls and hickory shafted clubs while I used all the mod cons. As long as it's a level playing field then it's not an "unfair" advantage. I accept that I find having one an advantage but just because some people don't want one doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed.
		
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I love it when I raise my opposition to DMDs (in club competitions) and all sorts of comparisons are thrown up - as they always are - supported by 'if I can use this then why can't I use that' sort of arguments - which get nowhere with me as I'm not talking about *this* - I'm talking about *that*

I'm not that bothered about the impact of all other mod cons, trolleys, new club technology, new ball technology, new shoes - new underpants technology.  I also consider affordability considerations out of scope of what I consider to be a discussion on principal.   I always simply talk about technology that can reduce significantly one very important aspect of playing golf - possibly THE most important aspect - uncertainty.  And then in the context of uncertainty - very crucially our uncertainty around distance.  Understanding what golf course architects try to do to fool your senses, and then understanding and mastering your golfing uncertainties are in my view absolutely core to playing the game.  

But I did say I wasn't going to get involved.  As the poll shows I am in a small minority amongst golfers here and probably everywhere.  But I will not drop my objections and will continue to lobby for their use being banned in Club Competitions.


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## GB72 (Nov 13, 2013)

I used to use one but not so much any more. Mine is getting on a bit and out of date and I cannot really justify a replacement. I do not find that I need one on my home course as I can judge distances reasonably well and that coupled with a bit of local knowledge means that I generally pick the right club (even if I do not then hit it right). On away courses it has been of more benefit but I do not play away enough to justify a new one.

Basically, for the level I play at, I can work things out well enough from a 150 yard marker.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2013)

Hobbit said:



			You could choose to leave your driver at home. Would you cry foul on all those players who've brought their drivers?
		
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I'm not not talking about drivers and what benefit they may or may not provide to the player.


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## ger147 (Nov 13, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I love it when I raise my opposition to DMDs (in club competitions) and all sorts of comparisons are thrown up - as they always are - supported by 'if I can use this then why can't I use that' sort of arguments - which get nowhere with me as I'm not talking about *this* - I'm talking about *that*

I'm not that bothered about the impact of all other mod cons, trolleys, new club technology, new ball technology, new shoes - new underpants technology.  I also consider affordability considerations out of scope of what I consider to be a discussion on principal.   I always simply talk about technology that can reduce significantly one very important aspect of playing golf - possibly THE most important aspect - uncertainty.  And then in the context of uncertainty - very crucially our uncertainty around distance.  Understanding what golf course architects try to do to fool your senses, and then understanding and mastering your golfing uncertainties are in my view absolutely core to playing the game.  

But I did say I wasn't going to get involved.  As the poll shows I am in a small minority amongst golfers here and probably everywhere.  But I will not drop my objections and will continue to lobby for their use being banned in Club Competitions.
		
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You would have to ban stroke savers, yardage markers on course and caddies from competitions as well if you want to be consistent as they also remove uncertainty about how far you are from certain points of the course e.g. the middle of the green.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2013)

Imurg said:



			Funny, I thought Golf was a game of skill.......
		
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Of coure it is - and one core golfing skill is mastering your uncertainty around what you have to do


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## mab (Nov 13, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and so I cry 'FOUL - unfair advantage' on behalf of those without a DMD. Golf is a game of uncertainty - anything that removes some uncertainly for one group of players but not another is clearly providing an advanatge to the have's. But I said I wouldn't start - as my position is clear and I know I am in a minority of a very few.
		
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This is nonsense.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2013)

mab said:



			This is nonsense.
		
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Good well argued conclusion.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2013)

ger147 said:



			You would have to ban stroke savers, yardage markers on course and caddies from competitions as well if you want to be consistent as they also remove uncertainty about how far you are from certain points of the course e.g. the middle of the green.
		
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How many times have I read on these forums how unreliable such distance aids are? - Indeed oft cited as the rationale for getting a DMD.  Besides - as I have said - I would only not allow them in Club Competitions when everyone is in exactly the same boat when it comes to distance using on-course distance induicators and effect of flag position etc.


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## mab (Nov 13, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I love it when I raise my opposition to DMDs (in club competitions) and all sorts of comparisons are thrown up - as they always are - supported by 'if I can use this then why can't I use that' sort of arguments - which get nowhere with me as I'm not talking about *this* - I'm talking about *that*

I'm not that bothered about the impact of all other mod cons, trolleys, new club technology, new ball technology, new shoes - new underpants technology. I also consider affordability considerations out of scope of what I consider to be a discussion on principal. I always simply talk about technology that can reduce significantly one very important aspect of playing golf - possibly THE most important aspect - uncertainty. And then in the context of uncertainty - very crucially our uncertainty around distance. Understanding what golf course architects try to do to fool your senses, and then understanding and mastering your golfing uncertainties are in my view absolutely core to playing the game. 

But I did say I wasn't going to get involved. As the poll shows I am in a small minority amongst golfers here and probably everywhere. But I will not drop my objections and will continue to lobby for their use being banned in Club Competitions.
		
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This is nonsense as well.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2013)

mab said:



			This is nonsense as well.
		
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And this also fails miserably on all grounds as an argument


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## full_throttle (Nov 13, 2013)

Bucket92 said:



			As per title, do you own a rangefinder? If so, why? If you don't, why is that? And why would you consider or not consider getting one?
		
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Yes.

Find it useful fo distances to carry hazards.

Originally had a skycaddie sg3 but changed to a Gamin Approach.


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## ger147 (Nov 13, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			How many times have I read on these forums how unreliable such distance aids are? - Indeed oft cited as the rationale for getting a DMD.  Besides - as I have said - I would only not allow them in Club Competitions when everyone is in exactly the same boat when it comes to distance using on-course distance induicators and effect of flag position etc.
		
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About the same number of times I've read that GPS devices are unreliable.

So your argument is actually nothing to do with removing uncertainty at all then?  And has again returned to everyone being in the same boat?  Everyone IS in the same boat - if the LR rule allows it, you can use one in comps.  If not, you can't.

If you don't like it, you are free to hold that opinion but please stop talking rubbish like it being about uncertainty - it's not.  It's simply that you don't like DMD's.


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## mab (Nov 13, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Good well argued conclusion.
		
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Your argument centres on uncertainty.

Uncertainty always remains as there is skill in understanding how the elements, terrain, etc. may require that you alter your shot in order to hit the ball your desired distance.

Course architecture influencing your perception of distance to the pin?  Come on.

Go to the nearest marker and pace out to your ball to remove the uncertainty.  Then, assuming your eyes are good enough, calculate how far from the front or middle of green the pin is.  Oh, wait, not everyone's eyes are comparably good... I call foul on those with 20:20 vision.

The rangefinder removes uncertainty from the distance you are from the pin.  It is then your golfing skill that kicks in to determine whether or not you are able to hit the ball that distance.


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## wheyward (Nov 13, 2013)

I use a Bushnell, and bought mine after playing with some better players at my club whose level of golf I aspire to.

I always used to be a fan of course planners and will usually still buy one if I'm playing away at somewhere that warrants a memento other than a terrible score card, but I like the security that I get with my range finder.

'If you're going to play safe, play safe!' An old playing partner of mine told me this whilst we played in a better ball format comp round the Brabazon, whilst I didn't have a Bushnell at the time, this is now one of my main uses for it, It doesn't take me long to latch onto a copse, bunker or pond and it gives me the confidence to strike my 3 wood or driver, knowing that a decent swing should avoid the trouble on my target line.

Secondly, I was lucky enough to enjoy a round in Spain last month where all of the yardages were in meters... Nightmare!! I had been advised to take my Bushnell with me and in the circumstances it was a godsend! I plotted my way round the course and shot a gross 78 (par being 72) including back to back to back birdies. Playing off of 12, I think its fair to say this would not have been possible without my Bushnell.

In short, an invaluable piece of kit when used correctly, however I rarely need to use it round my own trek as I would like to think that I know where I'm going after 7 years!


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## blackpuddinmonster (Nov 13, 2013)

Spikey said:



			Not sure from this if you're pro or anti phone-based DMDs, but my understanding of the the R&A flowchart (having had the issue come up at committee) was that there was no breach of the local rule if:

   1) The app itself can't measure anything other than distance (which they can't - not seen a phone yet that can itself measure temperature or wind speed).
   2) Other information (temp, wind, etc) was only available via an external web-based app.

The other thing this threw up was the fact that some electric trolleys (motocaddy?) have thermometers built in. How do these stand in relation to rule 14-3??
		
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Thats good , because i'am completely ambivalent as to their use. 
I believe all smart phones have a built in compass?
 I've read somewhere, probably here, that the only conforming phone is the i-phone 3g, but not the 3gs.
Reguarding the trolley i haven't got a scooby.


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## Kellfire (Nov 13, 2013)

Yes I use a DMD and have done since I was nothing more than a 28+ hacker. Why? At first it was an excellent tool to determine my distances as I improved. It helped me to become better at judging distances by eye, too. Now it helps me select a club and when something goes wrong, I know it was me and not the club. I feel more confident when stepping up to the ball and we all know what it's like to play golf when you aren't confident.


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## NWJocko (Nov 13, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I love it when I raise my opposition to DMDs (in club competitions) and all sorts of comparisons are thrown up - as they always are - supported by 'if I can use this then why can't I use that' sort of arguments - which get nowhere with me as I'm not talking about *this* - I'm talking about *that*

I'm not that bothered about the impact of all other mod cons, trolleys, new club technology, new ball technology, new shoes - new underpants technology.  I also consider affordability considerations out of scope of what I consider to be a discussion on principal.   I always simply talk about technology that can reduce significantly one very important aspect of playing golf - possibly THE most important aspect - uncertainty.  And then in the context of uncertainty - *very crucially our uncertainty around distance.  Understanding what golf course architects try to do to fool your senses, and then understanding and mastering your golfing uncertainties are in my view absolutely core to playing the game.  *
But I did say I wasn't going to get involved.  As the poll shows I am in a small minority amongst golfers here and probably everywhere.  But I will not drop my objections and will continue to lobby for their use being banned in Club Competitions.
		
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If you're stood next to a 150 yard marker how is the architect fooling your senses?

A couple of genuine questions

1. Why do you lobby for them to be banned in competition and do you realise how futile it is?

2. Do you live in a constant state of outrage about everything?!


Edited to add, yes I use a GPS although only this year.  Very useful to have, make life much easier and probably an advantage but, as they are available to everyone, certainly not an unfair advantage.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2013)

mab said:



			Your argument centres on uncertainty.

Uncertainty always remains as there is skill in understanding how the elements, terrain, etc. may require that you alter your shot in order to hit the ball your desired distance.

Course architecture influencing your perception of distance to the pin?  Come on.

Go to the nearest marker and pace out to your ball to remove the uncertainty.  Then, assuming your eyes are good enough, calculate how far from the front or middle of green the pin is.  Oh, wait, not everyone's eyes are comparably good... I call foul on those with 20:20 vision.

The rangefinder removes uncertainty from the distance you are from the pin.  It is then your golfing skill that kicks in to determine whether or not you are able to hit the ball that distance.
		
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Indeed - golf is full of uncertainty

And you don't think golf course architects try and use the terrain or create a landscape that will try and 'fool' the golfer in his assessment of distance, elevation etc? Oh well.

And we know course distance markers can be notoriously inaccurate - though where you'd find one on the fairway adjact to the one you are playing I don't know.  Anyway.

So you agree that DMDs reduce uncertainty in your decision making process and hence in your shot.

And lest we be mistaken - I am *not *against DMD/GPS devices per se - in fact I think they can be very useful.  I just don't think they should be allowed in closed (i.e. members only) club competitions.  Nothing more than that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2013)

NWJocko said:



			If you're stood next to a 150 yard marker how is the architect fooling your senses?

A couple of genuine questions

1. Why do you lobby for them to be banned in competition and do you realise how futile it is?

2. Do you live in a constant state of outrage about everything?!


Edited to add, yes I use a GPS although only this year.  Very useful to have, make life much easier and probably an advantage but, *as they are available to everyone, certainly not an unfair advantage.*

Click to expand...

They *may *be available - but all players may not be in a position to be able to acquire/use them.  

But again - all I am saying is that in a closed club competition they should not be allowed.  Anyone without one is at a potential disadvantage - IMO.  Non-users shold not feel *forced* to make use of a DMD for the playing field to be level as far as distance estimation is concerned - just because others want to use one.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 13, 2013)

I have got a Golf Buddy Tour GPS and a Bushnell V3 Tour

Excellent bits of kit that have helped my game no end

Some use them far too often

The Europro Tour now allows them during comp play and the pros uses them to make out their distance book during a practise round. Essential bits of kit for the pro's.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 13, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - golf is full of uncertainty
And lest we be mistaken - I am *not *against DMD/GPS devices per se - in fact I think they can be very useful.  I just don't think they should be allowed in closed (i.e. members only) club competitions.  Nothing more than that.
		
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But going back to your "unfair advantage" argument from earlier, if DMD/GPS devices were banned in closed competitions it would give an unfair advantage to someone who had been a member of the club for 20 years as opposed to a member in their first year who had only played the course a handful of times. A person with 20 years of knowledge of the course will know a lot more about distances or what shot to play than the new member.


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## Matty (Nov 13, 2013)

I use a Golf Buddy Tour. I have found I am much more confident in club selection and perhaps a little bit faster as a player as a result. If all players gained the same then I don't think that would be a bad thing for pace of play.


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## One Planer (Nov 13, 2013)

Matty said:



			I use a Golf Buddy Tour. I have found I am much more confident in club selection and perhaps a little bit faster as a player as a result. If all players gained the same then I don't think that would be a bad thing for pace of play.
		
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Hand them out on tour. Those guys could do with speeding up a little :mad.


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## mab (Nov 13, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - golf is full of uncertainty

And you don't think golf course architects try and use the terrain or create a landscape that will try and 'fool' the golfer in his assessment of distance, elevation etc? Oh well.

And we know course distance markers can be notoriously inaccurate - though where you'd find one on the fairway adjact to the one you are playing I don't know. Anyway.

So you agree that DMDs reduce uncertainty in your decision making process and hence in your shot.

And lest we be mistaken - I am *not *against DMD/GPS devices per se - in fact I think they can be very useful. I just don't think they should be allowed in closed (i.e. members only) club competitions. Nothing more than that.
		
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I fundamentally disagree with your position on this.

DMDs actually level the playing field by removing the guesswork... yes, *guesswork*... out of determining distances. Golfers then use true golfing skill to hit the ball their desired distance.

Not allowing DMDs in competition actually favours those who know the course better, those with better eyesight coupled with better distance and depth perception, etc.

Why don't we go the whole way and force those with poor eyesight to play in their own competitions during Sunday afternoon twilight hours in Winter with their new fangled technology helping them to assess distance.

Crazy.


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## Kellfire (Nov 13, 2013)

Swingitlikehogan - the only natural progression from your stance is that you would ban caddies from the professional game downwards and also you wouldn't allow the professionals to play practice rounds on the week's course or take notes.

Right?


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 13, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They *may *be available - but all players may not be in a position to be able to acquire/use them.  
But again - all I am saying is that in a closed club competition they should not be allowed.  Anyone without one is at a potential disadvantage - IMO.  Non-users shold not feel *forced* to make use of a DMD for the playing field to be level as far as distance estimation is concerned - just because others want to use one.
		
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Again absolute nonsense. They *are* available to all players that want to use one. They aren't sold in a mystical shop in Diagon Alley and you don't have to go and see Harry Potter to get a secret password to go there. Just pop into any American Golf or have a look online. I don't see any reason why any player is not able to acquire/use on if they choose to do so. As we aren't talking about being able to afford one on your principal earlier what other reasons are there that someone couldn't have one/use one?


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## Imurg (Nov 13, 2013)

Gareth said:



			Hand them out on tour. Those guys could do with speeding up a little :mad.
		
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They should.
A Caddy has all the info in their books but still takes days to work it out.
Give 'em a GPS....


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## One Planer (Nov 13, 2013)

Imurg said:



			They should.
A Caddy has all the info in their books but still takes days to work out which club to hit.
Give 'em a GPS....
		
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Fixed for you Ian


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 13, 2013)

Imurg said:



			They should.
A Caddy has all the info in their books but still takes days to work it out.
Give 'em a GPS....
		
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The info is worked out by using a lazer during the practise rounds


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## Imurg (Nov 13, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The info is worked out by using a lazer during the practise rounds
		
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And it still takes too long because they have to decipher all the data.......


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## ger147 (Nov 13, 2013)

Imurg said:



			And it still takes too long because they have to decipher all the data.......
		
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The 3rd time a caddy throws some grass in the air during a round and it lands on his head, the pro he is caddying for should be DQ'd


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## mab (Nov 13, 2013)

ger147 said:



			The 3rd time a caddy throws some grass in the air during a round and it lands on his head, the pro he is caddying for should be DQ'd 

Click to expand...


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## One Planer (Nov 13, 2013)

Imurg said:



			And it still takes too long because they have to decipher all the data.......
		
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They have accurate yardages. Know exactly how far they hit each club.

What's the hold up?


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## mab (Nov 13, 2013)

Gareth said:



			They have accurate yardages. Know exactly how far they hit each club.

What's the hold up?
		
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I've always wondered that too.

I have assumed that, whilst they do have accurate distances, they only have accurate distances from certain points.  It, therefore, takes a little time to 'triangulate' the distance from the exact point at which they are standing.

I could be completely wrong on this though...


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## patricks148 (Nov 13, 2013)

I have a range finder.

We even have distance markers to front and Middle on every sprinkler head from 250 yards out.

My eye sight is not great and with out large greens you can sometimes be 20-30 yards out.

Its great from under 150 as i can fire straight at the flag.


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## Laka (Nov 13, 2013)

I have a simple rangefinder with lensfocus and two other functions which one is a scanfunction. It works fine for my level of playing, we also has markers on fairway. 200 m, 150 meters, 100 m and 50 m and some sprinkler has distance measures to green.


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## jimbob.someroo (Nov 13, 2013)

I have a garmin watch which I find useful, particularly on courses which I've never played before - which was most of the ones in my league this year.

The majority of these courses did not have sprinkler yardages and so there was just the 3 (or in some cases 2) posts. Not that easy to judge from the adjacent fairway ...

I use mine as well on my home course as I feel it give me a bit more commitment to hit the shot. Don't think I'd have a laser though, a lot of faffing around and far too pricey. 

The watch lets me know to the nearest couple of yards how far to the middle of the green which 99% of the time is all I need. I can get this info as I arrive at the ball so that I don't have to pace out yardages etc and has definitely sped up my decision making.


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## the smiling assassin (Nov 13, 2013)

i use laser and gps and i enjoy my golf all the more for the certainty they provide and the fact i know i have to hit a good shot to get a good result and not just fluke a bad or good one close occasionally.

regarding uncertainty on the golf course. do those who feel dmd's take away an element of uncertainty also refrain from:
-teeing their ball,
-using a glove,
-lining their ball up on the green with the 'cheater-line'
-wearing glasses/sun glasses
-throwing clumps of grass in the air to assess wind direction
-referring to yardage markers of any sort
?
practicing all of the above removes an element of uncertainty from the shot. it does not remove the skill in executing the shot successfully. there are no excuses with a dmd - perhaps this uncertainty stuff is more about having something else other than yourself to blame when you hit a crap shot.


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## LIG (Nov 13, 2013)

I'm definitely NOT good enough to use a laser according to some but to them I say.... "stuff U! I'm a gadget man!" :ears:


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## upsidedown (Nov 13, 2013)

The GPS today in its first outing was very good, yardages to FMB and if you tap anywhere on the screen on the hole you're playing tells you how far it is to it.
The one thing it hasn't done which its supposed to, is not record club distances but that be down to user error. Do know I had drives between 225 and 248 yards


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 13, 2013)

A lot of good architects use false fronts, changes in elevation etc to elongate or foreshorten a hole and fool the golfer that way. A DMD gives you accurate data usually front middle and back that can nullify these architectural challenges and takes an uncertainty out of the equation


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## Davey247 (Nov 13, 2013)

I have a phone app for if I'm playing new courses with mates, but not really properly shopped about for a 'proper' device.  Though if I did I'd probably look at getting a Garmin watch.  Look like a decent bit of kit.


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## NWJocko (Nov 13, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			A lot of good architects use false fronts, changes in elevation etc to elongate or foreshorten a hole and fool the golfer that way. A DMD gives you accurate data usually front middle and back that can nullify these architectural challenges and takes an uncertainty out of the equation
		
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Doesn't a 150 yard post do the same job of removing uncertainty?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 13, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			A lot of good architects use false fronts, changes in elevation etc to elongate or foreshorten a hole and fool the golfer that way. A DMD gives you accurate data usually front middle and back that can nullify these architectural challenges and takes an uncertainty out of the equation
		
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Course planners do that also


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 13, 2013)

NWJocko said:



			Doesn't a 150 yard post do the same job of removing uncertainty?
		
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Not when the DMD has is at 164 yards (Tylney Park) or 139 (Royal Ascot) or 155 (Caversham Heath). Bottom line is they aren't accurate and if you add in the fact that some measure to the front and some to the middle so no consistency


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## NWJocko (Nov 13, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not when the DMD has is at 164 yards (Tylney Park) or 139 (Royal Ascot) or 155 (Caversham Heath). Bottom line is they aren't accurate and if you add in the fact that some measure to the front and some to the middle so no consistency
		
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Have you not mentioned to your own place their markers are inaccurate?

The point I was making was that, if the architects intentions of fooling the golfer were to have any integrity then there would be no means of measuring distances, therefore it seems an odd argument against dmds......


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 13, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Course planners do that also
		
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Some are too simple








And what about this doozy from Lydd








How do you know which tree they are referring to


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 13, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Some are too simple








And what about this doozy from Lydd








How do you know which tree they are referring to
		
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And most I have in the back of my car from various courses show a lot of detail - the ones we have for all three show nearly every bump and roll including the greens

Should they be banned ?


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 13, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And most I have in the back of my car from various courses show a lot of detail - the ones we have for all three show nearly every bump and roll including the greens

Should they be banned ?
		
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I'm not saying there aren't great ones out there that do a fantastic job (Woburn) but what would you do if you rocked up at a course and were given these two examples. Not ideal I'm sure you'll agree and surely it will take time to identify the right spot (neither had yardages on sprinklers etc) and so slow play down. I agree that if you get a good one then check where you are, get the read and go.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 13, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I'm not saying there aren't great ones out there that do a fantastic job (Woburn) but what would you do if you rocked up at a course and were given these two examples. Not ideal I'm sure you'll agree and surely it will take time to identify the right spot (neither had yardages on sprinklers etc) and so slow play down. I agree that if you get a good one then check where you are, get the read and go.
		
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That's the problem - all course are different and provide different course planners etc and DMD gives you equal chance to know the distance regardless of the standard of course planner or course maps etc.

If you ban gps etc then have a full blown ban for anything that gives distances including yardage books 

Knowing how far you are away from the hole isn't cheating - how you find out that distance is up to the player


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## bignev (Nov 13, 2013)

I have a DMD it only gives me front middle and back of the green. At 20 handicap thats all I need.When I 
10 shots off my handicap I may need something more precise but.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2013)

ColchesterFC said:



			But going back to your "unfair advantage" argument from earlier, if DMD/GPS devices were banned in closed competitions it would give an unfair advantage to someone who had been a member of the club for 20 years as opposed to a member in their first year who had only played the course a handful of times. A person with 20 years of knowledge of the course will know a lot more about distances or what shot to play than the new member.
		
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Absolutely - and unsurprisingly there is nothing in the rules of golf that even considers this - it's just as it is and always has been.  However Rule 14-3b explicitly prohibits use of distance measuring devices.  Their use is *only *permitted if there is a Local Rule in place for that purpose.  All I am suggesting is that for closed club competitions we stick with the rules as written and any such Local Rule does not apply.   That's all.  Now what's the big problem with that?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2013)

HomerJSimpson said:



			A lot of good architects use false fronts, changes in elevation etc to elongate or foreshorten a hole and fool the golfer that way. A DMD gives you accurate data usually front middle and back that can nullify these architectural challenges and takes an uncertainty out of the equation
		
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Thankyou Homer...


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## evahakool (Nov 13, 2013)

I've never used any dmd devices,at my h/c (18) happy to use yardage markers,it would be helpful
 to all golfers if players found yardage  markers wrong on any course wrong to inform the relevant club.

I think the most interesting question on this thread is "has a dmd device helped reduce your h/c" seen very few replies to this so would assume they don't help the majority reduce their h/c.

As I say they are not for me but have no real issues with anybody using one.


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## ger147 (Nov 13, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Absolutely - and unsurprisingly there is nothing in the rules of golf that even considers this - it's just as it is and always has been.  However Rule 14-3b explicitly prohibits use of distance measuring devices.  Their use is *only *permitted if there is a Local Rule in place for that purpose.  All I am suggesting is that for closed club competitions we stick with the rules as written and any such Local Rule does not apply.   That's all.  Now what's the big problem with that?
		
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I have no problem with you suggesting it.

FYI, at every club I've been at over the past several years, your suggestion has been rejected.

Time to move on...


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 13, 2013)

I don't think it will be long until the rule is removed and there will no longer be a need for a local rule ( as nearly every single course has it - including the Europro Tour )


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2013)

Davey247 said:



			I have a phone app for if I'm playing new courses with mates, but not really properly shopped about for a 'proper' device.  Though if I did I'd probably look at getting a Garmin watch.  Look like a decent bit of kit.
		
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Be careful - are you sure it's legal?  Smart phones often (usually) have an integral compass - and unless you can uninstall the compass then your phone is an illegal device.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 13, 2013)

evahakool said:



			I've never used any dmd devices,at my h/c (18) happy to use yardage markers,it would be helpful
 to all golfers if players found yardage  markers wrong on any course wrong to inform the relevant club.

I think the most interesting question on this thread is "has a dmd device helped reduce your h/c" seen very few replies to this so would assume they don't help the majority reduce their h/c.

As I say they are not for me but have no real issues with anybody using one.
		
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DMD have helped my game and been one of the factors that have got my handicap down


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 13, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			DMD have helped my game and been one of the factors that have got my handicap down
		
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Which is great and I have no issues at all in use of DMDs to help players do that.  Now in a comp on your own course, put to test your game and your ability to understand and judge distance without your DMD.


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## evahakool (Nov 13, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			DMD have helped my game and been one of the factors that have got my handicap down
		
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Well done I have no doubt a player of your h/c will find a great benefit from using a dmd device.


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## 3565 (Nov 13, 2013)

Best not raise Aimpoint up then with you lot, if this is how you go on about DMDs. 
For the record, bushnell 1500 for me and wouldn't be without it. Used range finders since 1999.


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## HickoryShaft (Nov 13, 2013)

Well just voted yes and with 75% of people in that category and another 10% of people considering it, the 'never' & 'its cheating' comments on here while being a good proportion of the replies to the thread are in the minority.

I am 17 HC - I use a shotmiser and find it very useful. IMO it speeds up play - mine is attached to my bag and after a quick glance if needed (not used every shot and never inside 80 yards)  and then select club. No dithering about the selection, no checking what tree / bush / bunker the planner is marked from and adding 13 yards paced out from there - select and play.

I know my yardages better now - I use it less at my own course now but extensively if away. Its not against the rules to know the yardage and I cant afford my own bag man.

I don't mind if someone doesn't ask me for a yardage but looks through a planner or paces it out themselves or uses their skill & judgement to estimate the yardage, or refer to notes they have on the course we are playing, why should they mind if I quickly check mine and play the ball.


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## Ian_S (Nov 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Be careful - are you sure it's legal?  Smart phones often (usually) have an integral compass - and unless you can uninstall the compass then your phone is an illegal device.
		
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That always seems a rule the R&A have made up to satisfy DMD manufacturers. If I carry a physical compass in my bag then it's not a DQ. I'm trusted by the rules not to use it. But a smartphone with compass capability is automatically deemed non-conforming.


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## HawkeyeMS (Nov 14, 2013)

I haven't read the whole thread but since it's got so long I'm gonna guess it went like this...

SilH has probably expressed his opposition to their use, stating that guessing yardages are part of the skill of golf and that by not having one he is at a disadvantage.

Someone (Imurg?) will have pointed out that distances are a matter of fact and no different to course planners and yardage markers.

There will have been the discussion about the use of mobiles with someone unaware they aren't allowed in comps, perhaps even that R&A flowchart has been posted? This probably lead to discussions about the compass apps.

SilH will be debating his case with someone who doesn't agree with him, probably someone different to the last time, they won't end up agreeing.

There will no doubt have been an argument about whether the slow down or speed up play.

Nothing will be agreed and it will all go quiet until next time someone makes the mistake of raising it.


Tell me I'm wrong


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## Imurg (Nov 14, 2013)

You're not wrong Mike........:clap:


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 14, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			I haven't read the whole thread but since it's got so long I'm gonna guess it went like this...

SilH has probably expressed his opposition to their use, stating that guessing yardages are part of the skill of golf and that by not having one he is at a disadvantage.

Someone (Imurg?) will have pointed out that distances are a matter of fact and no different to course planners and yardage markers.

There will have been the discussion about the use of mobiles with someone unaware they aren't allowed in comps, perhaps even that R&A flowchart has been posted? This probably lead to discussions about the compass apps.

SilH will be debating his case with someone who doesn't agree with him, probably someone different to the last time, they won't end up agreeing.

There will no doubt have been an argument about whether the slow down or speed up play.

Nothing will be agreed and it will all go quiet until next time someone makes the mistake of raising it.


Tell me I'm wrong 

Click to expand...


Nar that's about right  
You must be psychic  

I use a gps and a laser 

Why guess and mess up when you can obtain the exact distances...... And still mess up


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## chrisd (Nov 14, 2013)

What I find amazing is that SILH still refuses to accept that

Everyone can own one

Everyone can use one

They speed up play

They only give factual information

Any club that won't pass the necessary local rule to allow them are living in the dark ages

That pro golfers use them build up their yardage charts and if they used them for comps it would speed up their play

That allowing them for anything other than comps would be stupid

That the argument about "unfair advantage" is totally illogical 

But we always spend 12 forum pages trying to pull SILH head out of the sand!


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## El Bandito (Nov 14, 2013)

I have a DMD on my wrist, which I frequently use. I also have a laser which I take to new courses. Predominantly for checking out interim distances, to hazards etc....biggest benefit has been understanding what my true averages are. I use the laser on the range.

I still have a copy of a 'yardage guide' I wrote for my self a couple of years ago. 

7iron - 155 yards carry, 160 total.

i wish!

no doubt I can hit that shot, in the right conditions and once in a while, but now I know that my 7 iron (struck properly) will carry 140 to 145 most of the time. Generally the DMD gives me a little extra confidence that I have the right club, but certainly doesn't make the execution any better!


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## Robobum (Nov 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is great and I have no issues at all in use of DMDs to help players do that.  Now in a comp on your own course, put to test your game and your ability to understand and judge distance without your DMD.
		
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In your closed comps, would you also have categories for new members? 

It's hardly a level playing field for them to play against a member of 10 years who, by experience, has overcome the architects tricks and knows the distances and clubs to hit like the back of his hand.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2013)

chrisd said:



			What I find amazing is that SILH still refuses to accept that

Everyone can own one

Everyone can use one

They speed up play

They only give factual information

Any club that won't pass the necessary local rule to allow them are living in the dark ages

That pro golfers use them build up their yardage charts and if they used them for comps it would speed up their play

That allowing them for anything other than comps would be stupid

That the argument about "unfair advantage" is totally illogical 

But we always spend 12 forum pages trying to pull SILH head out of the sand!
		
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Chris - I'm not against them in general - and on that I *have* changed my view.  I just think it would be good for closed club competitions to be played with any LR suspended - and so playing to the rules of golf as written.  Would have the added advantage in that it would shut folk like me up once and for all.   

And I really can't see why that suggestion is a problem.  Are 90% of us just too wedded to our DMD that we can't live without them? Pretty sad if that's the case if you ask me.  Around your own course you will or *should *pretty much know your yardages (through use of your DMD the rest of the time you play) - so why are they required for closed comps - what is *wrong *with playing to the rule as written every so often?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2013)

ger147 said:



			I have no problem with you suggesting it.

FYI, at every club I've been at over the past several years, your suggestion has been rejected.

Time to move on...
		
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The OP asked my opinion on whether I would use one and if not then why.  I have stated my case and the rest of you argue with me and tell me I am wrong.   Sorry - it is simply what I believe - that occasionally there is absolutely no harm in playing to the rules as written and how we have traditionally assessed distance.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2013)

Robobum said:



			In your closed comps, would you also have categories for new members? 

It's hardly a level playing field for them to play against a member of 10 years who, by experience, has overcome the architects tricks and knows the distances and clubs to hit like the back of his hand.
		
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You are suggesting that a new member could claim that a competition is unfair and the playing field isn't level because he hasn't played as much as his FCs?  So what would you propose to correct this problem?

And as it happens new members with higher handicaps DO have their own 'high handicap' competitions - as do those in our Academy.  Besides - a lot of new members play a lot more golf than I do so they should get to know their distances and the tricky stuff pretty quickly.

It seems that we are in a position that most who use DMDs see it as their inalienable *right* to use them at all times (to all intents and purposes).  And that those few of us seeking suspension of that LR from time to time are wrong?  Why am I wrong?  It's a LR - which by definition can be changed or suspended at any point by the club.  So I am *wrong *to be standing on the side of the rule 14-3b as it is written?

Oh well.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			what is *wrong *with playing to the rule as written every so often?
		
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But which set of rules are you proposing that we use? The original rules of golf as written in 1744? The ones adopted by golfers in St Andrews (later to become the R&A) in 1754? The first national set of rules from 1899? Or one of the many up dates to these rules that have happened over the years? The rules change and evolve and it is up to players to change with them. If within the rules it is written that clubs may introduce a local rule to allow DMD's in comps then we are in fact playing to the rules as written already.


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are suggesting that a new member could claim that a competition is unfair and the playing field isn't level because he hasn't played as much as his FCs?  So what would you propose to correct this problem?

And as it happens new members with higher handicaps DO have their own 'high handicap' competitions
		
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Do the high handicap comps not also allow existing long term members to play as well. Thus giving them an advantage over the newbies? And what about a new member with a low handicap? Perhaps someone that plays off 4 who has just moved clubs.


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## Imurg (Nov 14, 2013)

Let's suspend all Local Rules then.........

As has been said, ban DMD's from comps and an advantage goes to those who know the course and it foibles..

Also, the argument that DMD's are of available to all...if you can afford to play golf then you can afford a DMD.
Whether you want one is up to you but availability isn't the issue as they can be bought for 50 quid...

If you think they give an advantage to the user why don't you use one? Apparently you're putting yourself at a disadvantage....why would anyone do that...?


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## chrisd (Nov 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Chris - I'm not against them in general - and on that I *have* changed my view.  I just think it would be good for closed club competitions to be played with any LR suspended - and so playing to the rules of golf as written.  Would have the added advantage in that it would shut folk like me up once and for all.   

And I really can't see why that suggestion is a problem.  Are 90% of us just too wedded to our DMD that we can't live without them? Pretty sad if that's the case if you ask me.  Around your own course you will or *should *pretty much know your yardages (through use of your DMD the rest of the time you play) - so why are they required for closed comps - what is *wrong *with playing to the rule as written every so often?
		
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As you know well SILH it just isn't going to happen. The rules of most sports and golf too change with the times. 20 years ago there were no measuring devices around like there is today and the R & A have rather fudged the issue with the need for a local rule once they became available and players wanted to use them. I don't think shutting up people is the issue, you are pretty much on your own with the arguments against, and, not liking them in closed comps is just never going to happen.

 What I fundamentally disagree with you on is the "advantage" claim. Everyone playing golf is able to buy a DMD and 99% can use them at their course in comps, if you, or anyone chooses not to own one they themselves are solely responsible for any disadvantage accruing. Affordability is not the issue, I cant afford to join Wentworth, if I could I am sure my game would be better than on my home course and my handicap lower, on that basis I could claim that their members have an unfair advantage in the game over me, that would be nonsense of course! What about someone who cant afford the driver that I can, maybe we should put an upper price limit on driver to level the playing field. 

No SILH, arguments of disadvantage are just not right but I personally wouldn't ban phone apps or any device even if you could push a button and the screen  message read "use a 7 iron you numpty" because its still down to the player to execute the shot and that , in the final analysis is what golf is really about - not who best at guessing distance!


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## ger147 (Nov 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The OP asked my opinion on whether I would use one and if not then why.  I have stated my case and the rest of you argue with me and tell me I am wrong.   Sorry - it is simply what I believe - that occasionally there is absolutely no harm in playing to the rules as written and how we have traditionally assessed distance.
		
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I play by the rules as written, including ALL local rules at my course and every other course I've played at.

My point is you have no case other than you don't like them.  That is no reason to change club competition golf in the UK.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2013)

OK - look I apologise to all for going again where I said at the outset of this that I wouldn't.  Because yes - I guess most of you find my position and views wrong and hence boring when repeated.  

But I have - this time again - gone on as I get very frustrated that amongst the majority here there does not seem to be the *slightest *bit of recognition that there is a valid position I am trying to defend, and that my request is actually not unreasonable.  The majority view seems simply that DMDs should be allowed at all times, as that is what the majority want so the rest of us just have to come into line, put up with it - and shut up.  

But for me on *any *subject of debate, that is not a position I will accept.  Where there is a minority view that is based on absolute strong foundations or a principle (in this case a rule of golf), then I feel that that minority view should be taken seriously - but here on DMDs it is not - it is dismissed out of hand - completely failing to accept there may be a valid alternative stance.  There is apparently no compromise on this.  What the majority wants - the majority gets.

Ah well - I am disappointed that that attitude prevails.


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## ger147 (Nov 14, 2013)

That's because your position is NOT valid, but you seem unable or unwilling to accept that.

Nothing more we can do to try and help you...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2013)

ger147 said:



			That is no reason to change club competition golf in the UK.
		
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There has to be some irony in this statement given a LR has had to be brought in to allow DMDs in club competitions.

Anyway - my piece is said.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2013)

ger147 said:



			That's because your position is NOT valid, but you seem unable or unwilling to accept that.
		
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Good grief - it IS - RULE 14-3b says that DMDs are NOT ALLOWED - and are only allowed if there is a LR in place.  Why does that not register with some.  Use of DMDs is DISCRETIONARY - I want that discretion to be used.


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## Snelly (Nov 14, 2013)

I have got a sky caddie and used it a fair bit when I got it but I've stopped now as I can't be bothered with downloading different courses and I always forget to charge it.  I don't think it makes much difference to my scores really.   Like all these things, before they existed, people still shot under par so they can't be that essential can they?


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Good grief - it IS - RULE 14-3b says that DMDs are NOT ALLOWED - and are only allowed if there is a LR in place.  Why does that not register with some.  Use of DMDs is DISCRETIONARY - *I want that discretion to be used*.
		
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No you don't. You want everything to go back to whatever halcyon days you are dreaming of. As I said previously and you failed/chose not to answer what set of rules do you want to play by? Or do you want to make them up to suit yourself? If it is written in the rules of golf that local rules are allowed and these local rules have been introduced then we are already playing by the rules of golf as written. It seems that your stance is "I don't like them or want one so nobody should have one".


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## HawkeyeMS (Nov 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - look I apologise to all for going again where I said at the outset of this that I wouldn't.  Because yes - I guess most of you find my position and views wrong and hence boring when repeated.  

But I have - this time again - gone on as I get very frustrated that amongst the majority here there does not seem to be the *slightest *bit of recognition that there is a valid position I am trying to defend, and that my request is actually not unreasonable.  The majority view seems simply that DMDs should be allowed at all times, as that is what the majority want so the rest of us just have to come into line, put up with it - and shut up.  

But for me on *any *subject of debate, that is not a position I will accept.  Where there is a minority view that is based on absolute strong foundations or a principle (in this case a rule of golf), then I feel that that minority view should be taken seriously - but here on DMDs it is not - it is dismissed out of hand - completely failing to accept there may be a valid alternative stance.  There is apparently no compromise on this.  What the majority wants - the majority gets.

Ah well - I am disappointed that that attitude prevails.
		
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Personally, I like the passion you have for your argument even though I don't agree with it or see any logic in it. Would you have all those clubs who have yardages on the fairway sprinkler heads remove the yardages? What about colour coded flags to tell you if it is front middle or back? Surely these are all things that go against the tradition of guessing the yardage.

At various periods since golf was invented, things have been introduced that have been aimed at getting more accurate yardage information. Marker posts, course planners, yardages on sprinkler heads, colour coded flags and pin sheets have all been introduced to give the golfer more information about how far he has to hit it. DMDs are just the next incarnation of this information.


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## rosecott (Nov 14, 2013)

tugglesf239 said:



			Golf Shot GPS on my phone. Cracking purchase and only Â£20

Thankfully my club allows these devices if used only for the GPS component.
		
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I would be interested to know how your club has publicised this - or or has it just evolved by locker room chat that you can use them.


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## HawkeyeMS (Nov 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Good grief - it IS - RULE 14-3b says that DMDs are NOT ALLOWED - and are only allowed if there is a LR in place.  Why does that not register with some.  Use of DMDs is DISCRETIONARY - I want that discretion to be used.
		
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To be fair SilH, discretion is being used when allowing them. You may not agree, but it doesn't change the fact that clubs are using their discretion.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 14, 2013)

I bet SILH also uses the modern golf ball and modern clubs (seriously your using a 460cc driver, that is the biggest skill killer in town and ruins the most golf architecture) ... Yardage devices are and have been around a lot longer than you suspect. The technology may be new but no one played anywhere competitively without getting some local knowledge i.e. a caddy. So in away rule 14-3b like most in golf has all ways been circumvented. 

Plus why should the amateur not have this facility?  
Have you ever seen a pro yardage map? 
Have you ever seen their Pin position maps? 

You can say what you like about DMDs but bottom line is the player has to get it there, they don't hit the ball for you ... which is why the 460cc driver is more destructive.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2013)

ColchesterFC said:



			No you don't. You want everything to go back to whatever halcyon days you are dreaming of. As I said previously and you failed/chose not to answer what set of rules do you want to play by? Or do you want to make them up to suit yourself? If it is written in the rules of golf that local rules are allowed and these local rules have been introduced then we are already playing by the rules of golf as written. It seems that your stance is "I don't like them or want one so nobody should have one".
		
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Local rules can be suspended temporarily if a club wishes to do so.  I like them fine btw - and I'm not wishing them to be banned.


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## chrisd (Nov 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - look I apologise to all for going again where I said at the outset of this that I wouldn't.  Because yes - I guess most of you find my position and views wrong and hence boring when repeated.  

But I have - this time again - gone on as I get very frustrated that amongst the majority here there does not seem to be the *slightest *bit of recognition that there is a valid position I am trying to defend, and that my request is actually not unreasonable.  The majority view seems simply that DMDs should be allowed at all times, as that is what the majority want so the rest of us just have to come into line, put up with it - and shut up.  

But for me on *any *subject of debate, that is not a position I will accept.  Where there is a minority view that is based on absolute strong foundations or a principle (in this case a rule of golf), then I feel that that minority view should be taken seriously - but here on DMDs it is not - it is dismissed out of hand - completely failing to accept there may be a valid alternative stance.  There is apparently no compromise on this.  What the majority wants - the majority gets.

Ah well - I am disappointed that that attitude prevails.
		
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I would hope SILH that I am a very reasonable person but on this issue see absolutely no merit in your argument and I have not seen this argument put forward or agreed with by any other poster no matter how often the subject has arisen. I have seen arguments about banning them propounded by some for various reasons but never for the argument that they give an unfair advantage and the very fact that the R & A allow the rule to be disregarded just by posting a local rule is absolutely central to the argument that the rule on this issue isn't cast in stone as are most rules.

I wish that I could acknowledge your position on this matter but really, many reads on the many times this issue is aired, can see any reason to think that yours is a "valid alternative stance" - sorry!


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## Imurg (Nov 14, 2013)

So try and get things changed at your Club.......

Good luck with that one!

Discretion is used on this local rule - there are clubs that don't allow DMD's...
But the vast majority don't agree with you.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Personally, I like the passion you have for your argument even though I don't agree with it or see any logic in it. Would you have all those clubs who have yardages on the fairway sprinkler heads remove the yardages? What about colour coded flags to tell you if it is front middle or back? Surely these are all things that go against the tradition of guessing the yardage.

At various periods since golf was invented, things have been introduced that have been aimed at getting more accurate yardage information. Marker posts, course planners, yardages on sprinkler heads, colour coded flags and pin sheets have all been introduced to give the golfer more information about how far he has to hit it. DMDs are just the next incarnation of this information.
		
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Thankyou Sir - a bit of relief from the hammering 

My position on them in club competitions is simply based on the fact that from time to time we find ourselves in unusual positions on the course where such as course planners, yardage markers on sprinkler heads etc as you have listed, are of little or no use to the player. 

Typically this is where we stick a wayward tee shot on the wrong fairway.  One of the penalties of doing this was that - being 'out of position' we could not simply rely on our normal distances and course guides/distance markers, and had to try and work out how far we had to go - and that could be very difficult to do or could take up a lot of time (so we often tended not to do it).  Put a DMD in my hand and *that *element of penalty for the poor tee shot has gone.  As these situations are fairly infrequent over a 'season' such things tend not to matter - but in a one round competition it could make a big difference to the outcome.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2013)

Imurg said:



			Discretion is used on this local rule - there are clubs that don't allow DMD's...
		
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Thanks Imurg 

So why does my view receive such absolute opposition and total dismissal on this forum when it already happens?

Shows that clearly I am not alone in my views - which is a relief - and it is perhaps good for others here to know that.


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## Albanach (Nov 14, 2013)

I have a SkyCaddie SG5 and having recently joined a new club in Ireland I found it very helpful but am considering getting rid of it (if anyone is interested let me know) as I very rarely play away from my home courses and feel pretty comfortable with the landmarks and yardage markers etc.  
When playing at my home course in Scotland I was almost disappointed in myself that I had resorted to using it, as I have been a member there for 21 years and like another user said I used to know and trust clubbing by eye and sometimes it does seem like they take the 'feel' away from the shot. Might sound daft and is obviously not the case for every shot but it's hard to describe. The one thing they are very good for is if it's an open course and you end up on another holes fairway where there are no aids to help you.


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## chrisd (Nov 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thankyou Sir - a bit of relief from the hammering 

My position on them in club competitions is simply based on the fact that from time to time we find ourselves in unusual positions on the course where such as course planners, yardage markers on sprinkler heads etc as you have listed, are of little or no use to the player. 

Typically this is where we stick a wayward tee shot on the wrong fairway.  One of the penalties of doing this was that - being 'out of position' we could not simply rely on our normal distances and course guides/distance markers, and had to try and work out how far we had to go - and that could be very difficult to do or could take up a lot of time (so we often tended not to do it).  Put a DMD in my hand and *that *element of penalty for the poor tee shot has gone.  As these situations are fairly infrequent over a 'season' such things tend not to matter - but in a one round competition it could make a big difference to the outcome.
		
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........... but you seem to chop and change your argument. One post you say that you're against them solely because they give an unfair advantage over people who don't have them as the reason to ban them, and then you make the case that it makes the game simpler because it takes the guess work out when the player is marooned in an unfamiliar place on the course.

Which is it to be, or is it more than one reason?


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## Imurg (Nov 14, 2013)

You're not on your own...
Just in very, very small minority.

I couldn't even name clubs that don't allow them, there's that few....


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## chrisd (Nov 14, 2013)

Imurg said:



			You're not on your own...
Just in very, very small minority.

I couldn't even name clubs that don't allow them, there's that few....
		
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Sunningdale isn't mapped for Skycaddie and doesn't allow them as far as I recall


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## 3565 (Nov 14, 2013)

It would be interesting to see a club committee nominate a monthly medal as a none DMD event, and see how many of the members who use DMDs enter? And what their scores would be in comparison?


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## USER1999 (Nov 14, 2013)

Imurg said:



			You're not on your own...
Just in very, very small minority.

I couldn't even name clubs that don't allow them, there's that few....
		
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Probably courses with a caddy program.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 14, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Sunningdale isn't mapped for Skycaddie and doesn't allow them as far as I recall
		
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Probably cos its rubbish and if you knew the yardages you would rip it up ... or its trying to protect the 3 million stroke savers it needs to sell


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## harpo_72 (Nov 14, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			Probably courses with a caddy program.
		
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caddy program ... isn't that just a manual DMD? (which relies on the honesty of the golfer)


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## mab (Nov 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thankyou Sir - a bit of relief from the hammering 

My position on them in club competitions is simply based on the fact that from time to time we find ourselves in unusual positions on the course where such as course planners, yardage markers on sprinkler heads etc as you have listed, are of little or no use to the player. 

Typically this is where we stick a wayward tee shot on the wrong fairway. One of the penalties of doing this was that - being 'out of position' we could not simply rely on our normal distances and course guides/distance markers, and had to try and work out how far we had to go - and that could be very difficult to do or could take up a lot of time (so we often tended not to do it). Put a DMD in my hand and *that *element of penalty for the poor tee shot has gone. As these situations are fairly infrequent over a 'season' such things tend not to matter - but in a one round competition it could make a big difference to the outcome.
		
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The fundamental difference between your opinion and mine is, essentially, that you believe being able to eyeball a distance accurately should be part of a golfer's toolset on competition day. This takes into account a course architect's ability to confuse golfers, that yardage markers are often out, that course guides can be inadequately detailed, etc. so eyeballing a distance (let's assume you're playing an invitation day at a first time course so don't have local knowledge) is of paramount importance.

I understand your opinion, but I disagree with it and see no logic to it... and I also think it puts certain people at a huge disadvantage such as those with failing eyesight.

In your example above, where I've blocked my drive onto a neighbouring fairway, being able to eyeball the distance to the green is not, in my opinion, golfing skill. Golfing skill comes after knowing what distance I have. If I know I have 197 to the pin... but have to start the shot down the incorrect fairway, gaining huge elevation while it draws sharply left over the massive oak trees guarding the green from my line in... execution of that tremendously difficult shot is golfing skill.

If I pull that shot off, what a great achievement. If I pull the shot off but land 15 yards short because I mis-calculated the distance, that is massively disappointing because I executed the *golf bit* perfectly... I just misread the distance, perhaps because my eyesight isn't all that good from 200 yards out.

However, you have your thoughts and I don't see you changing them. Good luck to you.


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## duncan mackie (Nov 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Where there is a minority view that is based on absolute strong foundations or a principle (in this case a rule of golf), then I feel that that minority view should be taken seriously ......

Ah well - I am disappointed that that attitude prevails.
		
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Please show me any rule of golf that prohibits a player from being advised of the distance he has to go to his target.

Just one to support your 'principle'


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## rosecott (Nov 14, 2013)

chrisd said:



			Sunningdale isn't mapped for Skycaddie and doesn't allow them as far as I recall
		
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It is mapped for Snooper.


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## HawkeyeMS (Nov 14, 2013)

rosecott said:



			It is mapped for Snooper.
		
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And Garmin


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			Please show me any rule of golf that prohibits a player from being advised of the distance he has to go to his target.

Just one to support your 'principle'
		
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Surely there are rules that define who can and who cannot advise him of distance to target, and rule 14-3b prohibits him using a DMD for that purpose unless permitted by a LR.


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## USER1999 (Nov 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Surely there are rules that define who can and who cannot advise him of distance to target, and rule 14-3b prohibits him using a DMD for that purpose unless permitted by a LR.
		
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Was this rule, and provision for a l/r not put in so that the pros can't use a dmd?


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## HawkeyeMS (Nov 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Surely there are rules that define who can and who cannot advise him of distance to target, and rule 14-3b prohibits him using a DMD for that purpose unless permitted by a LR.
		
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Distance information is public information and may be exchanged between competitors and caddies freely.


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## NST (Nov 14, 2013)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			I have the bushnell tour V3, Got it this year, 

Has it improved my game? Doubtful. 

Has DMD's slowed the game up! Yes without a doubt.
		
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I uses garmain. It's on the side of my golf bag. Each shot I look at it and see a number and choose my club. I'm not wandering round looking for 150yard markers or pacing out how far I am from them. If anything my garmain has made me quicker.


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## HawkeyeMS (Nov 14, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			Was this rule, and provision for a l/r not put in so that the pros can't use a dmd?
		
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From the Q&A on the R&A website...

_Q. Why not simply allow distance measuring devices without the need for a Local Rule?

A. The advent of distance-measuring devices and their use in the game divides opinion at many levels.  Many golfers are fans of these devices as they feel it puts them on a level footing with tournament professionals who have caddies providing distance information, whilst others will argue that there is no place for such technology in the game.  As such, it was, and remains, appropriate to allow individual clubs and Committees to decide what is right for them, their competitions and their players._

Also, from the R&A and USGA joint statement on the use of DMDs...

_While accepting this development in the provision of distance information, the USGA and The R&A will remain vigilant when considering the rules on distance-measuring devices. As with the equipment rules, the purpose of these rules is to protect golfâ€™s best traditions, to prevent an over-reliance on technological advances rather than skill, and to ensure that skill is the dominant element of success throughout the game. *Permitting the use of a measuring device to provide the same information that can be obtained through use of a yardage book or on-course markings is not considered to diminish the skill level required to play the game.*

The USGA and The R&A believe that the current practice of allowing distance-measuring devices by local rule remains appropriate. In the current circumstances, the USGA and The R&A are not advocating that this practice should be changed and neither the USGA nor The R&A plan to introduce the local rule at any of their championships._


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## Foxholer (Nov 14, 2013)

Old Skier said:



Does anyone know how the laser range finders work? I worked with laser sighting systems for over 22 years and: 

a: Treated them as a weapon as they could cause serious injury
b: Required a stable platform to operate from so that you could actually hitthe point that you were aiming at.

Now I appreciate the lasers that I used were a bit more powerful but could the current golf craze for lasers do any harm to other users on the course if just for a bit of fun someone decides to laser another players see how far away theyare.

And what are you aiming at as those I ask say the flag stick, so unless the laser is producing a wide beam I would be more than surprised if there are many golfers at over 20 feet capable of hitting a golf bag let alone a flag stick.

Interested in the technology behind this.

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Check this out! For all your 'use of technology', did use of Google not spring to mind?

http://www.bushnellgolf.com/general/technologies_how_lrw.cfm

Is this a case of 'a little knowledge...' or simply 'confirmation of the Grunt myth'!


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## USER1999 (Nov 14, 2013)

But if allowing dmd was a rule, they couldn't stop the tour pros from using them. However the officials word their reasoning, dmds will only ever be allowable under an l/r for this reason, unless they decide that use of a dmd might get your average pro round the course in less than 6 hours.


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## chrisd (Nov 14, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			But if allowing dmd was a rule, they couldn't stop the tour pros from using them. However the officials word their reasoning, dmds will only ever be allowable under an l/r for this reason, unless they decide that use of a dmd might get your average pro round the course in less than 6 hours.
		
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About 4 years ago I was at a practice round at Wentworth and heard Colin Montgomery tell the amateurs he was paired with that, in his view the European Tour would allow DMD's in the next couple of years - it hasn't happened yet but for the reason Murph says, I believe it will come.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is great and I have no issues at all in use of DMDs to help players do that.  Now in a comp on your own course, put to test your game and your ability to understand and judge distance without your DMD.
		
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Why do I need too ? 

Shall we next get rid of big drivers because they help ? Or GI irons ? Or Alignment lines on the back of putters and the course planners and course markers

All items to help a person with their game 

Shall we all play with the exact same clubs ? Same balls ? Same Tees ? Same shoes ?


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## Old Skier (Nov 14, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Check this out! For all your 'use of technology', did use of Google not spring to mind?

http://www.bushnellgolf.com/general/technologies_how_lrw.cfm

Is this a case of 'a little knowledge...' or simply 'confirmation of the Grunt myth'!
		
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Never been a grunt so not sure of what the myth is. I presume with a user name like yours you do.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2013)

Nothwithstanding all of the above -* for myself* I don't really care as my distance judgement is as good as it needs to be.  That doesn't mean to say...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Distance information is public information and may be exchanged between competitors and caddies freely.
		
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ah - true - sorry - my mistake - except for 14-3b


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2013)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why do I need too ? 

Shall we next get rid of big drivers because they help ? Or GI irons ? Or Alignment lines on the back of putters and the course planners and course markers

All items to help a person with their game 

Shall we all play with the exact same clubs ? Same balls ? Same Tees ? Same shoes ?
		
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I'll say it again - I'm talking about DMDs - the rest have their own rules and regulations.  If you want to argue about shoes, clubs, balls etc then on you go.  But I have only ever asked about DMDs because of rule 14-3b.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'll say it again - I'm talking about DMDs - the rest have their own rules and regulations.  If you want to argue about shoes, clubs, balls etc then on you go.  But I have only ever asked about DMDs because of rule 14-3b.
		
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And local rules which override the rule 14-3b ( and verifed by the R&A ) - allows them. 

Sorted


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## Midnight (Nov 14, 2013)

I use one and in my own mind it does help me, it does not slow my game down and it does help me choose the right club , then I can mess up the strike on my own.

I can see where  Swingsitlikehogan is coming from and everyone is entitled to their own view. He does seem to take a lot of stick for having this view , but he obviously believes in it as he has not backed down yet and I would put money on him not backing down.

I do like the idea of a club having a medal comp without the use of the GPS, i have a feeling I would struggle even more  like this , as I am clueless when it comes to distances .


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2013)

HawkeyeMS said:



			From the Q&A on the R&A website...

_*Permitting the use of a measuring device to provide the same information that can be obtained through use of a yardage book or on-course markings is not considered to diminish the skill level required to play the game.*_

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Careful chosen words IMO - and playing semantics a bit with the word 'skill'  

I think all agree that using a DMD to obtain an accurate distance measurement can reduce uncertainty in the mind of the golfer - and I think all agree that uncertainty is one of the main reasons we mess up a shot.  So can I deduce from these two statements that something that reduces uncertainty in the mind of the golfer is going to reduce the probability of the golfer messing up?  I think it is reasonable to make that deduction.  

Absolutely no mention in the above of the players skill level being affected in anyway - that is unless you include the mental aspect of the game under the heading of skill...

And I note the mention of 'yardage book or on-course markings'  And I absolutely agree.  But neither is much good to me if I am on the wrong fairway.  Anyway - been there done that one.

I shall continue to confound and astound my PPs with my ability to judge distance by eye and use of course markers (most of the time)   As I said a few posts ago - the fact that I don't use a DMD really doesn't bother me and as far as I am concerned doesn't put me at a disadvantage in respect of me playing my game.  That they can give others an advantage in some circumstances I maintain is the case.


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## Imurg (Nov 14, 2013)

How can having one be an advantage if not having isn't a disadvantage.....?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2013)

Imurg said:



			How can having one be an advantage if not having isn't a disadvantage.....?
		
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Any advantage another might get in a competition isn't going to affect how I play my game. Why I said - _ doesn't put me at a disadvantage in respect of *me playing my game*. _


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## Golfmmad (Nov 14, 2013)

I don't have a range finder or a DMD and will not be getting one.

Quite simply I prefer to use my own judgment as to how far I have to go and what club I need to get there. I'm not always right but that's probably because I don't execute the shot as well as I could. 

For me it boils down to a matter of choice as to what clubs, balls or devices a player decides to use. I don't see it an advantage when an opponent has a DMD and I don't - the same as he or I may have better or higher spec clubs.

Each to their own and all that..............


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## duncan mackie (Nov 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Surely there are rules that define who can and who cannot advise him of distance to target, and rule 14-3b prohibits him using a DMD for that purpose unless permitted by a LR.
		
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the principle you so strongly assert relates to the provision of the distance information - how that information is measured or delivered is not relevant to that principle.

I can assure you that the modern yardage chart not only enables the caddie to provide the player with the exact yardage to any hazard, green reference point from any point on the course, but from any where even you could put it! They would be sacked if they couldn't. They can also convert any slope on a course to an effective yardage adjustment from anywhere too - but they are permitted, as would be reference notes on a course planner prepared in advance by a player using a slope DMD or practice!

That the average player is more comfortable turning up at an unknown course with a Skycaddie rather than Bones (having sent him there the previous week to spend a week mapping it all out and recording the information in a manner that's acceptable to both the Tour and the caddies union) isn't a matter of principle but convinence.

If you *really* want a valid principle to debate, handicaps are based on your normal play, with your usual clubs, ball, caddie and if you own and use one, your DMD. Any advantage an individual might gain is already reflected in their handicap - job done. Principle of potentially unfair advantage dismissed.

In practice the only thing they do for the average competitive golfer is reduce the financial overheads associated with preparing to compete on 'away' courses or reduce the home advantage where the away players wouldn't otherwise prepare - which I consider a positive!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2013)

duncan mackie said:



			If you *really* want a valid principle to debate, handicaps are based on your normal play, with your usual clubs, ball, caddie and if you own and use one, your DMD. Any advantage an individual might gain is already reflected in their handicap - job done. Principle of potentially unfair advantage dismissed.
		
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Of course I have considered that in thinking about this and yes - your improved distance estimation with a DMD and less uncertainty etc will *over time* be reflected in your handicap.  

But your handicap will not accommodate the impact of getting things drastically wrong in any one round.  Apart from anything else high scores (of worse than two over net par) for a hole are ignored when it comes to handicap - but are not going to be ignored in strokeplay competitions.

I accept that I am never going to win this argument in general - but that does not stop me making it - and I will continue to do so especially if I am told that I am wrong.  I see nothing *wrong *in asserting that it is not unreasonable for some specific club competitions to be played with any LR on DMDs temporarily suspended.  There is absolutely no harm in that at all and I still wonder why so many see it as their 'right' to use a DMD


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## NWJocko (Nov 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course I have considered that in thinking about this and yes - your improved distance estimation with a DMD and less uncertainty etc will *over time* be reflected in your handicap.  

But your handicap will not accommodate the impact of getting things drastically wrong in any one round.  Apart from anything else high scores (of worse than two over net par) for a hole are ignored when it comes to handicap - but are not going to be ignored in strokeplay competitions.

I accept that I am never going to win this argument in general - but that does not stop me making it - and I will continue to do so especially if I am told that I am wrong.  I see nothing *wrong *in asserting that it is not unreasonable for some specific club competitions to be played with any LR on DMDs temporarily suspended.  There is absolutely no harm in that at all and I still wonder why so many see it as their 'right' to use a DMD 

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Because its in the rules (local)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 14, 2013)

NWJocko said:



			Because its in the rules (local)
		
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Well OK


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## Imurg (Nov 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I still wonder why so many see it as their 'right' to use a DMD [/QU
OTE]

Simply because a Local Rule - that overrides the actual rule - says they can.
You simply don't like the rule - there are rules that I dislike but they're in the book so that's that.

Lobby your Club to arrange such a Comp. 
They'll probably ask "why?".â€¦.
		
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## NWJocko (Nov 14, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well OK
		
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You asked why I should feel its my right to use one.

The answer is, it's allowed by the rules of my club, in accordance with the rules of golf.


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## backwoodsman (Nov 15, 2013)

So DMDs give some people an advantage - or they don't. Some of us care and some of us don't. Some of us think that they are against the spirit of the game because of rule 14/3b and the rest go along with the R&A line that 14/3b remains in place so that local choice can be exercised under a local rule. There's no harm in arguing against DMDs but I'd respectfully suggest that those who do are rather whistling in the wind. The discussion has been had and to the most part the "anti" argument has been lost. Not proven "wrong" - just lost & not accepted by the majority. The stats prove it - most people in the poll use them, and most clubs seem to have adopted the local rule allowing them. 

In the end, for an argument where there is no definitively right or wrong position, once one position has been adopted by a significant majority, then that's pretty much that and those of the opposite stance are rather like Roger Whittacker in a strong breeze. Of course there will always be local groups (clubs) that wish to maintain things the way they always have - and good look to them.  But Canute maintained a rigid stance in the face of a rising tide and look what good it did him in the end?


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## PhilTheFragger (Nov 15, 2013)

I think we can all agree that SILH has the right not to use a DMD if he so chooses

Now I'm going to get on with what's left of my life


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 15, 2013)

Me too.


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## richart (Nov 15, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Me too.
		
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 Do you promise ?


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## Rooter (Nov 15, 2013)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Me too.
		
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So did you not get any DMD apps for your new iphone i take it???


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