# Brexit - The negotiations.



## spongebob59 (Feb 20, 2020)

Thought I'd start a new thread.

Thoughts of Andrew Neil to kick off :

Now studied both the UK and the EU negotiating positions. They are on different planets. There will be a huge bust up by Spring. Whether it can be put together again unclear. I reckon no higher than 50:50. Johnson government will not agree to continued alignment with EU rules. 

It shows EU once said, given UK’s red lines, only Canada-style free trade deal was possible. UK has proposed Canada-style free trade deal. Now EU says that’s not possible without full alignment to EU rules (against UK red lines). It’s pretty easy to understand.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 20, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1229905017370501120


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## DRW (Feb 20, 2020)

EU is only interested in control, controlling what the UK(and others) does. One result(with other goals) of this is trying to ensure no other country wishes to leave the great union of Europe.

You can twist it other ways, but the truth is obvious, control is good.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 20, 2020)

So were out but the EU is adamant we’re not kinda out. 🤔 Heard summat the other day where I think it was Barnier who said
 “ UK cannot have a Canada style trade deal due to the close proximity of the UK to the EU”. Eh, what’s that all about. Need a dustbin sized popcorn for this one.


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 20, 2020)

It has been quite nice to have a spell without poilticians from various countries, including our own, posturing for domestic markets but sad to see them kicking off again. Lock them in a room and don't let them out until a deal is struck. Don't let them make statements, speak to the press etc. Ah well, it was a nice thought. The merry go round starts again, business gets nervous...............


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## Tashyboy (Feb 20, 2020)

Not even gonna pretend to know what’s best for the EU and the UK. But surely it’s better for both sides to have some kind of deal. Should the EU not agree to a Canada style deal. Would Boris say “shove it”. Where would that leave the UK.A WTO style trade agreement.
I do think this though, the more the EU and the UK knob about, trade and industry in both the UK and the EU will suffer. And that benefits no one.


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## Fish (Feb 20, 2020)

Leave without a deal, simples.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2020)

Seems like the main objection the EU have to the UK having a similar trading relationship to that of Canada and Japan is that we are closer.   Why is this relevant, the countries we will want to trade with outside the EU are further away!    It just has to be that the EU want to control the way the UK trade with the rest of the World and this cannot be right.

It will be interesting to read on this thread how people can defend the EU's position.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Not even gonna pretend to know what’s best for the EU and the UK. But surely it’s better for both sides to have some kind of deal. Should the EU not agree to a Canada style deal. Would Boris say “shove it”. Where would that leave the UK.A WTO style trade agreement.
I do think this though, the more the EU and the UK knob about, trade and industry in both the UK and the EU will suffer. And that benefits no one.
		
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So Tashy, what do you suggest?   Would you prefer the UK as an independent country to have it's laws and trading rules dictated by the EU, surely its best the UK and EU have a tariff and quota free arrangement and both trade with other countries as they see fit.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 20, 2020)

Hopefully the other Brexit threads will now be locked.
Let’s be honest, we all knew the 31st Jan was purely 1 step along the path, there will be loads of blustering from both sides, both will blame each other, both will claim the moral high ground etc

Why don’t we simply ignore it all and see what deal we get for leaving on 31st Dec, it will only be 1 of 2 deals:
No Deal.
A Deal.

Really don’t get the bitching and moaning from forum members on this one. 10 months to go, have faith.


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## chrisd (Feb 20, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			So were out but the EU is adamant we’re not kinda out. 🤔 Heard summat the other day where I think it was Barnier who said
“ UK cannot have a Canada style trade deal due to the close proximity of the UK to the EU”. Eh, what’s that all about. Need a dustbin sized popcorn for this one.
		
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My understanding is that he's saying, because we are in close proximity to the EU geographically we are more able to undercut the EU on prices to customers in Europe by reducing quality, dumping etc etc so (ha ha) they want a level playing field agreement so that we are less able to be unfairly competitive. 

All of which say "leave on WTO"  then let them see what we really can do 😂😂


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 20, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			So were out but the EU is adamant we’re not kinda out. 🤔 Heard summat the other day where I think it was Barnier who said
“ UK cannot have a Canada style trade deal due to the close proximity of the UK to the EU”. Eh, what’s that all about. Need a dustbin sized popcorn for this one.
		
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I'm thinking this is simply due to the volume, value, nature and scope of the trade between UK and the EU being very significantly different and greater than that between Canada and the EU.  And because of that and our immediate proximity to the EU - the UK presents a very significant risk of high impact on EU27 economies if we have the 'same' deal as Canada.  And so quite sensibly and understandably the EU will want to mitigate that risk. 

It's seems to me to be rather similar to what any business would do if partnering with another in specific markets or for specific customers, whilst they remained competitors in others.  We would want to protect existing markets we have that are outside the scope of our partnership from the avaricious eyes of our partner/competitor.  And so we'd be very carefully keeping technologies, products, market analysis and such like that address these 'out of scope' markets away from our partner and so we would not give them the same access as we would to that of ours which is in scope of our partnership.

Seems to me that that is all that the EU is going to do - as it was always going to do.


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## Papas1982 (Feb 20, 2020)

I work for the  customs clearance agent in Kent, who also happen to be the least proactive in the industry....

Even we have now taken extra staff on and bought a second office which is being fitted next week. If our dinosaur of an owner (who regularly meets the brexit team) has decided to actually spend money preparing, then I think is more 60/40 for no deal.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			So Tashy, what do you suggest?   Would you prefer the UK as an independent country to have it's laws and trading rules dictated by the EU, surely its best the UK and EU have a tariff and quota free arrangement and both trade with other countries as they see fit.
		
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My first sentence says it all, not got a clue. Totally agree with your suggestions re free trade etc, but don’t think the EU see it that way.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm thinking this is simply due to the volume, value, nature and scope of the trade between UK and the EU being very significantly different and greater than that between Canada and the EU.  And because of that and our immediate proximity to the EU - the UK presents a very significant risk of high impact on EU27 economies if we have the 'same' deal as Canada.  And so quite sensibly and understandably the EU will want to mitigate that risk.

It's seems to me to be rather similar to what any business would do if partnering with another in specific markets or for specific customers, whilst they remained competitors in others.  We would want to protect existing markets we have that are outside the scope of our partnership from the avaricious eyes of our partner/competitor.  And so we'd be very carefully keeping technologies, products, market analysis and such like that address these 'out of scope' markets away from our partner and so we would not give them the same access as we would to that of ours which is in scope of our partnership.

Seems to me that that is all that the EU is going to do - as it was always going to do.
		
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But its not a partnership is it, we have just ceased to be a partner.

Can you imagine a UK company saying it insists that other companies in their district must follow their price and staff conditions of employment policy otherwise they wont do any business with them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 20, 2020)

Damn either side trying to get their own way.

*There are five steps to the negotiation process, which are:*

Preparation and planning.
Definition of ground rules.
Clarification and justification.
Bargaining and problem solving.
Closure and implementation.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Damn either side trying to get their own way.

*There are five steps to the negotiation process, which are:*

Preparation and planning.
Definition of ground rules.
Clarification and justification.
Bargaining and problem solving.
Closure and implementation.


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You missed the first one:


Grandstanding and Sabre Rattling


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You missed the first one:


Grandstanding and Sabre Rattling


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Hilarious


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## chrisd (Feb 20, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Hilarious

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Actually amusing and totally true


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## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Actually amusing and totally true
		
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Woman scorned and all that


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 20, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Actually amusing and totally true
		
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Or could be part of preparation and planning!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Woman scorned and all that 

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Grow up!


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## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Grow up!
		
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Oh dear


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## fundy (Feb 20, 2020)

good to see this brexit thread last as long as all the others lol


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## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2020)

fundy said:



			good to see this brexit thread last as long as all the others lol
		
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Its got a good year to run now.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			But its not a partnership is it, we have just ceased to be a partner.

Can you imagine a UK company saying it insists that other companies in their district must follow their price and staff conditions of employment policy otherwise they wont do any business with them.
		
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Any trade agreement is surely going to be a 'partnership' of some form...and in partnering we might well accede some aspects of control of the business we are to do together to our partner.


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## chrisd (Feb 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Any trade agreement is surely going to be a 'partnership' of some form...and in partnering we might well accede some aspects of control of the business we are to do together to our partner.
		
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That might well be the case, but, if your the weakest player in the negotiations (as the EU is) you dont go in all guns blazing at the start


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## Pathetic Shark (Feb 20, 2020)

The EU are scared stiff that the UK will make a success out of leaving and that will be the end of their little group therapy session.  Greece, Spain, Italy - all will follow suit.   So the EU are going to be as damn difficult as possible during the negotiations.


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 20, 2020)

chrisd said:



			That might well be the case, but, if your the weakest player in the negotiations (as the EU is) you dont go in all guns blazing at the start
		
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Genuinely baffled why some people think the EU has the weaker hand here.  Both sides have strong negotiating points but a simple look at size of markets and indeed the way world trade is increasingly being led by large trade blocs such as the EU, US and China means I am slightly baffled why if we are talking specifically about trade deals, they have the weakest hand.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Any trade agreement is surely going to be a 'partnership' of some form...and in partnering we might well accede some aspects of control of the business we are to do together to our partner.
		
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And would you agree our partner should 'accede' some aspects of control of the business to us? Or is it just a one way arrangement.


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## drdel (Feb 20, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			The EU are scared stiff that the UK will make a success out of leaving and that will be the end of their little group therapy session.  Greece, Spain, Italy - all will follow suit.   So the EU are going to be as damn difficult as possible during the negotiations.
		
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These members are net takers so they may not wish to turn off the flow of cash into their coffers. I not sure the 'Frugal Four' members and Germany are quite as willing to keep pumping more and more into the EU at the rate the new budget expects.

In true EU/Brussels fashion they stone-wall and Barnier will grandstand and hide behind the fact he is appointed to play hard-ball with no consequences to his career while the citizens of his members are set to pick up the tab. We have already seen demands for 'the return of the Greek artefacts', Gibralta and other stuff. This is set to be as much of a debacle as the previously 'friendly' negotiation with addition of more excruciating childish twitter commentary


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			And would you agree our partner should 'accede' some aspects of control of the business to us? Or is it just a one way arrangement.
		
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It's entirely up to them...

Leave and now our Conservative government promised us a deep, comprehensive and seamless (tariff free?) trade agreement with the EU - they would have known the stance the EU would take in negotiations - no point in complaining about the EU - Mr Johnson and Mr Frost just needs to get on with delivering what we have been promised.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's entirely up to them...
		
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No its not


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## Kellfire (Feb 20, 2020)

Fish said:



			Leave without a deal, simples.
		
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 You do know what that means, right?

Well, obviously you don’t.


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## Hobbit (Feb 20, 2020)

Maybe Barnier needs to refresh his memory on the WTO December 2018 rules on discriminatory trade agreements. I'm sure his advisors are on top of their brief, even if he isn't.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Genuinely baffled why some people think the EU has the weaker hand here.  Both sides have strong negotiating points but a simple look at size of markets and indeed the way world trade is increasingly being led by large trade blocs such as the EU, US and China means I am slightly baffled why if we are talking specifically about trade deals, they have the weakest hand.
		
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A 20 Billion Pound trade deficit might be a little bargaining chip.


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## Dando (Feb 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			And would you agree our partner should 'accede' some aspects of control of the business to us? Or is it just a one way arrangement.
		
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I am sure you know what his answer will be


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 20, 2020)

I don’t have any issue with the EU posturing, making statements, trying to bluff etc and will take all of it with a pinch of salt.
I may not agree or support our PM, but if we have learnt anything in the last 6 months it’s that he won’t be sucked in by their games and will either put a deal to the HoC’s he’s content with or simply go down the No Deal route.
Just as we believe we are in a position of strength, so might the EU, I’d expect neither side to be giving any ground at this stage, either publicly or privately.
One other thought, we are neither Leavers or Remainers any more, we are out and if you don’t like it......unlucky.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 20, 2020)

Dando said:



			I am sure you know what his answer will be
		
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I would expect the EU to make whatever concessions that *they *deem necessary to ensure that they manage (to their best outcome and advantage), such as, UK access to the EU single market - with minimum risk to, and impact on, the economies of the EU member states - and also to ensure the best EU access to UK markets.  I would expect no less and no more.  We have left the EU, the EU can decide what concessions they wish to make for their own best interests and whatever bargaining chips they can pull together from across the EU27 that might ease acceptance across the EU27 of whatever deal is arrived at.

Meanwhile it seems that the UK is waving a big shotgun in the air telling the EU that unless they give us what we want we'll shoot ourselves in the foot and stomp off triumphantly to trade with the EU and the RoW under the rules of the WTO - and so become a WTO ruler taker whilst telling all that we are taking back control.

All good fun.  But hey.  It's what the people voted for.  We are out and we might as well get used to the idea that the EU is a competitor and so will play as fair as it chooses to play - no point in us whinging.


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## Hobbit (Feb 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I would expect the EU to make whatever concessions that *they *deem necessary to ensure that they manage (to their best outcome and advantage), such as, UK access to the EU single market - with minimum risk to, and impact on, the economies of the EU member states - and also to ensure the best EU access to UK markets.  I would expect no less and no more.  We have left the EU, the EU can decide what concessions they wish to make for their own best interests and whatever bargaining chips they can pull together from across the EU27 that might ease acceptance across the EU27 of whatever deal is arrived at.

Meanwhile it seems that the UK is waving a big shotgun in the air telling the EU that unless they give us what we want we'll shoot ourselves in the foot and stomp off triumphantly to trade with the EU and the RoW under the rules of the WTO - and so become a WTO ruler taker whilst telling all that we are taking back control.

All good fun.  But hey.  It's what the people voted for.  We are out and we might as well get used to the idea that the EU is a competitor and so will play as fair as it chooses to play - no point in us whinging.
		
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Ref the waving the shotgun in the air, maybe you missed the piece last week in which the EU said they will unilaterally impose rules onto the U.K., and if the U.K. doesn’t abide by them the U.K. will be up before the ECJ.

Unless I’m much mistaken it’s the WTO that is the independent arbitrator in trade disputes.


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## Beezerk (Feb 20, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			You do know what that means, right?

Well, obviously you don’t.
		
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Cliff edge, crash out, disastrous no deal...yadda yadda? All said by remain biased MPs over the last couple of years 🤔


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## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I would expect the EU to make whatever concessions that *they *deem necessary to ensure that they manage (to their best outcome and advantage), such as, UK access to the EU single market - with minimum risk to, and impact on, the economies of the EU member states - and also to ensure the best EU access to UK markets.  I would expect no less and no more.  We have left the EU, the EU can decide what concessions they wish to make for their own best interests and whatever bargaining chips they can pull together from across the EU27 that might ease acceptance across the EU27 of whatever deal is arrived at.

Meanwhile it seems that the UK is waving a big shotgun in the air telling the EU that unless they give us what we want we'll shoot ourselves in the foot and stomp off triumphantly to trade with the EU and the RoW under the rules of the WTO - and so become a WTO ruler taker whilst telling all that we are taking back control.

All good fun.  But hey.  It's what the people voted for.  We are out and we might as well get used to the idea that the EU is a competitor and so will play as fair as it chooses to play - no point in us whinging.
		
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We don't want any of that rubbish, just a simple free trade arrangement like the ones they have agreed with other countries.  WTO don't tell us what we have to give to the European Union either, we are free to decide that ourselves.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			We don't want any of that rubbish, just a simple free trade arrangement like the ones they have agreed with other countries.  WTO don't tell us what we have to give to the European Union either, we are free to decide that ourselves.
		
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Indeed - and we will get what the EU want to agree with us - which may or may not be Canada-like.  And if it comes to it - as many would seem to wish - when trading under WTO rules we will be having to accept *their *rules.  No matter - taking back control and all that - that's what the people voted for


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## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - and we will get what the EU want to agree with us - which may or may not be Canada-like.  And if it comes to it - as many would seem to wish - when trading under WTO rules we will be having to accept *their *rules.  No matter - taking back control and all that - that's what the people voted for 

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And they will be accepting ours. Why do you always sound as if you want the UK to do badly.


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## Kellfire (Feb 20, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Cliff edge, crash out, disastrous no deal...yadda yadda? All said by remain biased MPs over the last couple of years 🤔
		
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If you don’t have agreed legal trade deals, guess what happens...?


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## Hobbit (Feb 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			And they will be accepting ours. Why do you always sound as if you want the UK to do badly.
		
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Always "sound like".... Its non-stop "the EU this and the EU that." He says he wants the UK to do well but talks incessantly about what the EU will do, and how very dare the UK push back.

He uses different media to view what's going on in the USA but doesn't go looking for what's been said in Europe. I read 2 different sources from here in Spain and another from Portugal. The EU are being pushed just as hard from many of the member states for a quick, equitable deal.


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## Dibby (Feb 20, 2020)

Everyone is looking at this like it is a zero-sum game, in reality, it is quite easy for both sides to lose. It's also easy to frame it as the EU will lose less, that still doesn't make it palatable - would you be willing to lose an arm just to make sure I lose two? Hardly a massive victory when it can all be avoided. 
The other factor is that despite the EU acting as a bloc, it is still made up of single countries, those that have to plug the UKs contributions won't be happy if they have to take up the slack, those that are net receivers won't be happy if they now get less, those who have more trade with the UK won't be happy even if the EU as a whole is not dependent, so the EU has to manage these internal rifts at the same time.

People act like the UK will become a destitute third world country, forgetting that yes it is leaving the worlds second-largest economic bloc, but it is still the 5-7th largest standalone economy in the world. Within the EU only Germany is a bigger economy and France is about equal. In the world, only US, China, Japan, Germany and India are bigger economies. The UK is still a big player in the global scene, despite the doom that some predict. 

I wish I could find it again, there was a study from a prestigious US institution (think Harvard, MIT one of those big players) that free trade deals don't actually provide all that much benefit to trade volumes as people assume. Businesses like them as they reduce red tape, but in the big scheme of things unless you go full autarky, trade generally still flows in similar volumes anyway. I think the figure in the study was that if the US didn't have any of it's trade deals, the total impact would only be 2.5% of GDP, so obviously a negative impact, but not full-on destruction of the economy.


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## drdel (Feb 20, 2020)

Dibby said:



			Everyone is looking at this like it is a zero-sum game, in reality, it is quite easy for both sides to lose. It's also easy to frame it as the EU will lose less, that still doesn't make it palatable - would you be willing to lose an arm just to make sure I lose two? Hardly a massive victory when it can all be avoided.
The other factor is that despite the EU acting as a bloc, it is still made up of single countries, those that have to plug the UKs contributions won't be happy if they have to take up the slack, those that are net receivers won't be happy if they now get less, those who have more trade with the UK won't be happy even if the EU as a whole is not dependent, so the EU has to manage these internal rifts at the same time.

People act like the UK will become a destitute third world country, forgetting that yes it is leaving the worlds second-largest economic bloc, but it is still the 5-7th largest standalone economy in the world. Within the EU only Germany is a bigger economy and France is about equal. In the world, only US, China, Japan, Germany and India are bigger economies. The UK is still a big player in the global scene, despite the doom that some predict.

I wish I could find it again, there was a study from a prestigious US institution (think Harvard, MIT one of those big players) that free trade deals don't actually provide all that much benefit to trade volumes as people assume. Businesses like them as they reduce red tape, but in the big scheme of things unless you go full autarky, trade generally still flows in similar volumes anyway. I think the figure in the study was that if the US didn't have any of it's trade deals, the total impact would only be 2.5% of GDP, so obviously a negative impact, but not full-on destruction of the economy.
		
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I pretty much agree with your sentiments. I just add that (IMO) one of the biggest issues that EU-UK negotiations will crystalise is down to the way the EU membership and Brussels make decisions. The current issues with ratification of their budget and the Canadian deal is demonstrated by the challenges of getting 27 parliaments to agree collectively  when they have different strategic requirements and domestics markets to satisfy when a minority pay into the pot from which the majority others draw.


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## Jamesbrown (Feb 20, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			If you don’t have agreed legal trade deals, guess what happens...?
		
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Trade under WTO rules?


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## Dando (Feb 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			And they will be accepting ours. Why do you always sound as if you want the UK to do badly.
		
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because then he and the other pant wetters can say “I told you so”


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## User62651 (Feb 20, 2020)

Dando said:



			because then he and the other pant wetters can say “I told you so”
		
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UK is run by a far right wing cabal led by a lying cheating racist, that may be of no concern to you but it is to 58% who didn't vote for Trump Lite. Maybe that's a reason for some confidence issues wrt EU/Brexit? Let's just see what happens before the insults.


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## Dando (Feb 20, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			UK is run by a far right wing cabal led by a lying cheating racist, that may be of no concern to you but it is to 58% who didn't vote for Trump Lite. Maybe that's a reason for some confidence issues wrt EU/Brexit? Let's just see what happens before the insults.[/QUOTE

It’s a shame the pant wetting remainers didn’t wait to see what happens before the insults!
		
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## Fade and Die (Feb 20, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



*UK is run by a far right wing cabal led by a lying cheating racist*, that may be of no concern to you but it is to 58% who didn't vote for Trump Lite. Maybe that's a reason for some confidence issues wrt EU/Brexit? Let's just see what happens before the insults.
		
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Oh dear.🙄


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## drdel (Feb 20, 2020)

Under the new budget France will get billions more for  their farmers. However the EU will only do a deal if the  UK agrees not to support businesses and distort competition, REALLY.


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## Beezerk (Feb 20, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			If you don’t have agreed legal trade deals, guess what happens...?
		
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You get even more upset and volatile?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 20, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			UK is run by a far right wing cabal *led by a lying cheating racist,* that may be of no concern to you but it is to 58% who didn't vote for Trump Lite. Maybe that's a reason for some confidence issues wrt EU/Brexit? *Let's just see what happens before the insults*.
		
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Can you see the irony in your two highlighted comments.


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## spongebob59 (Feb 20, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1230620467670720512


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## JamesR (Feb 20, 2020)

drdel said:



			Under the new budget France will get billions more for  their farmers. However the EU will only do a deal if the  UK agrees not to support businesses and distort competition, REALLY.
		
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Isn’t it their right to say that, and if we want a deal we have to either agree or barter for better?
Surely we knew they may impose punitive “punishments “ as part of their position !
They are EU members first, as they’ve always been!


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## Kellfire (Feb 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Can you see the irony in your two highlighted comments.
		
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 Not sure how you can call those things insults when they’re all verifiably true.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 21, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Always "sound like".... Its non-stop "the EU this and the EU that." He says he wants the UK to do well but talks incessantly about what the EU will do, and how very dare the UK push back.

He uses different media to view what's going on in the USA but doesn't go looking for what's been said in Europe. I read 2 different sources from here in Spain and another from Portugal. The EU are being pushed just as hard from many of the member states for a quick, equitable deal.
		
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Unfortunately, from the forums two camps. Pro and anti EU. There’s Not many neutrals. Most have there minds made up. The papers and the BBC don’t help with there biased views. however. You/ Hobbit and other forumers are in a position where you don’t have to read the British propaganda drivel re the Brexit trade negotiations. Would love to hear how the EU countries and press sees these negotiations etc going. Views from you, Italian outcast, slab and a few others might give us another view. 👍

Crack on Hobbit 😁


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## Doon frae Troon (Feb 21, 2020)

https://twitter.com/hashtag/Immigration?src=hashtag_click

Absolutely spot on.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 21, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://twitter.com/hashtag/Immigration?src=hashtag_click

Absolutely spot on.
		
Click to expand...

😳 que.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Feb 21, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Unfortunately, from the forums two camps. Pro and anti EU. There’s Not many neutrals. Most have there minds made up. The papers and the BBC don’t help with there biased views. however. You/ Hobbit and other forumers are in a position where you don’t have to read the British propaganda drivel re the Brexit trade negotiations. Would love to hear how the EU countries and press sees these negotiations etc going. Views from you, Italian outcast, slab and a few others might give us another view. 👍

Crack on Hobbit 😁
		
Click to expand...

You do realise it’s possible to be Pro-European and not want to be a member of the EU.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 21, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Not sure how you can call those things insults when they’re all verifiably true.
		
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Yes right. 🙄


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			And they will be accepting ours. Why do you always sound as if you want the UK to do badly.
		
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I don't - I am simply looking at the fact that we seem to be asking the EU for a Canada-like deal - *we *are asking *them.  *Of course they want a deal with us - and it will hurt the EU if we do not have a deal - however UKs fall-back position is that we trade with the EU and the rest of the world under WTO rules - the EUs isn't.  Now you may think that trading under WTO rules is just fine - and if it came to pass that we will decide that we will accept WTO rules then that is taking back control - and fine. 

But let's not be whinging about the behaviour and stance of the EU and all the stuff they decide to throw into the melting pot.  If getting a deal that involves return of the Elgin Marbles is what is required to get full buy-in for a deal from the Greeks - and we and the EU need Greek approval - then maybe so be it.  We knew what we were getting into when we decided to leave.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 21, 2020)

Dibby said:



			Everyone is looking at this like it is a zero-sum game, in reality, it is quite easy for both sides to lose. It's also easy to frame it as the EU will lose less, that still doesn't make it palatable - would you be willing to lose an arm just to make sure I lose two? Hardly a massive victory when it can all be avoided.
The other factor is that despite the EU acting as a bloc, it is still made up of single countries, those that have to plug the UKs contributions won't be happy if they have to take up the slack, those that are net receivers won't be happy if they now get less, those who have more trade with the UK won't be happy even if the EU as a whole is not dependent, so the EU has to manage these internal rifts at the same time.

*People act like the UK will become a destitute third world country,* forgetting that yes it is leaving the worlds second-largest economic bloc, but it is still the 5-7th largest standalone economy in the world. Within the EU only Germany is a bigger economy and France is about equal. In the world, only US, China, Japan, Germany and India are bigger economies. The UK is still a big player in the global scene, despite the doom that some predict.

I wish I could find it again, there was a study from a prestigious US institution (think Harvard, MIT one of those big players) that free trade deals don't actually provide all that much benefit to trade volumes as people assume. Businesses like them as they reduce red tape, but in the big scheme of things unless you go full autarky, trade generally still flows in similar volumes anyway. I think the figure in the study was that if the US didn't have any of it's trade deals, the total impact would only be 2.5% of GDP, so obviously a negative impact, but not full-on destruction of the economy.
		
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Who is saying that - link please...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 21, 2020)

Dando said:



			because then he and the other pant wetters can say “I told you so”
		
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But there is no chance of that happening is there - because we were told that a deep and comprehensive deal would be the easiest thing to agree - and so it will come to pass - I hope.


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## Dando (Feb 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			But there is no chance of that happening is there - because we were told that a deep and comprehensive deal would be the easiest thing to agree - and so it will come to pass - I hope.
		
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i'm sure they said it "should be" you've never been one to let facts get in the way of a moan!


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## robinthehood (Feb 21, 2020)

There is no plan for no deal, because we’re going to get a great deal.

The day after we vote to leave, we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want

I made one absolute promise in that campaign. We will be in control, for good or for bad, I never promised it would be a huge success, I never said it would be a failure, I just said we'd be in control


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## oxymoron (Feb 21, 2020)

This is interesting 
https://uk.yahoo.com/finance/news/barniers-environmental-labour-demands-sham-200040815.html 

Barnier want to make sure we toe the line on enviromental issues but in his own backyard ........


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## drdel (Feb 21, 2020)

oxymoron said:



			This is interesting
https://uk.yahoo.com/finance/news/barniers-environmental-labour-demands-sham-200040815.html

Barnier want to make sure we toe the line on enviromental issues but in his own backyard ........
		
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... while Germany continues to bring new solid fuel powered generating stations on stream.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 21, 2020)

Dando said:



			i'm sure they said it "should be" you've never been one to let facts get in the way of a moan!
		
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I am not so sure that Liam Fox and David Davis expressed very much doubt about the great deal that was going to happen.

But hey - maybe I misheard.  As I seem to be mis-hearing quite a lot these days - that all Leave voters knew that things were going to be difficult for some time after we left...that it was never going to be easy - and that such as the £350m on the side of the bus was just 'politicking' - it wasn't real - and all Leave voters knew that.  Or so I am mis-hearing more and more these days as the bright and sunny uplands promised by our PM look a little less bright and a little less sunny.  Never mind.  There is always that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow 

The best thing about where we are today is that we have a good team in place led by a strong Leaver - David Frost - so no messing with the UK in our negotiations with the EU.  And I am sure that we will get the best deal we can.  And it will be fine.


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## Dando (Feb 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am not so sure that Liam Fox and David Davis expressed very much doubt about the great deal that was going to happen.

But hey - maybe I misheard.  As I seem to be mis-hearing quite a lot these days - that all Leave voters knew that things were going to be difficult for some time after we left...that it was never going to be easy - and that such as the £350m on the side of the bus was just 'politicking' - it wasn't real - and all Leave voters knew that.  Or so I am mis-hearing more and more these days as the bright and sunny uplands promised by our PM look a little less bright and a little less sunny.  Never mind.  There is always that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow 

The best thing about where we are today is that we have a good team in place led by a strong Leaver - David Frost - so no messing with the UK in our negotiations with the EU.  And I am sure that we will get the best deal we can.  And it will be fine.
		
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you only "mis-hear" when it suits you but as soon as your beloved EU speak your hearing seems just fine!


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## Twire (Feb 21, 2020)

OK folks, the old Brexit thread has now been locked (we don't need two running). Please don't let this one deteriorate the same way the last one did. This thread is about the transition and negotiations, we are now out, we don't need to go over old ground. 

Flaming, Trolling, personal insults, tit for tat will not be tolerated and if appropriate, infractions issued.

If you are unsure what's acceptable please refresh your memory with the link below.

https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/gm-forum-updated-rules-guidelines.53425/


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## IanM (Feb 21, 2020)

This is simple.

The EU has spent 50 plus years imposing Federalism, largely without a mandate to do so.   They still expect the UK to adhere to their rule if we leave or not.  They are that arrogant. 

The UK Government may or may not be committed to taking the UK out.  We have the words, will we have the deeds?

That doesnt leave any room for negotiation.  Watch this space. 

This is about Federalism v Sovereignty.   If you think it isn't, sorry, you need to wise up - and that goes for people on both sides of the fence.


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## Foxholer (Feb 21, 2020)

Dando said:



			i'm sure they said it "should be" you've never been one to let facts get in the way of a moan!
		
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Liam Fox may have stated 'should be...', but others (UKIP Leaders among them) made rather 'more certain' statements, including that it 'could be sorted out in an afternoon over a cup of coffee'!

https://www.indy100.com/article/no-...oris-johnson-david-davis-dominic-raab-8463121 

Perhaps you should (re)consider your own (mis)use of *selected* 'facts'/quotes when making a point!


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## Tashyboy (Feb 21, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You do realise it’s possible to be Pro-European and not want to be a member of the EU. 

Click to expand...

Yup,  But that am not really bothered about, having another week in Normandy in September, off to Majorca in April. Love having me hols in Europe. love the culture even more.  But when it comes to me financing french pensions and being run by EU laws, no thanks.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 21, 2020)

drdel said:



			... while Germany continues to bring new solid fuel powered generating stations on stream.
		
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never mind that they want to ban me stove. bloody Tories 😉😳😁


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## Dando (Feb 21, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Liam Fox may have stated 'should be...', but others (UKIP Leaders among them) made rather 'more certain' statements, including that it 'could be sorted out in an afternoon over a cup of coffee'!

https://www.indy100.com/article/no-...oris-johnson-david-davis-dominic-raab-8463121

Perhaps you should (re)consider your own (mis)use of *selected* 'facts'/quotes when making a point!
		
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given that UKIP were nowhere near power their comments are irrelevant


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## Foxholer (Feb 21, 2020)

Dando said:



			given that UKIP were nowhere near power their comments are irrelevant
		
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Twaddle!


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## robinthehood (Feb 21, 2020)

Dando said:



			given that UKIP were nowhere near power their comments are irrelevant
		
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Course they're not. They had a huge following and swayed many a voter.


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## Mudball (Feb 21, 2020)

Who is our chief negotiator these days?  Why do we get Somerset's fav son Rees-Mogg on it.   What is he doing these days?


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## Dando (Feb 21, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Liam Fox may have stated 'should be...', but others (UKIP Leaders among them) made rather 'more certain' statements, including that it 'could be sorted out in an afternoon over a cup of coffee'!

https://www.indy100.com/article/no-...oris-johnson-david-davis-dominic-raab-8463121

Perhaps you should (re)consider your own (mis)use of *selected* 'facts'/quotes when making a point!
		
Click to expand...

I clicked on that link, had a good chuckle at some of the articles then closed the down page as it’s utter garbage


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## Foxholer (Feb 21, 2020)

Dando said:



			I clicked on that link, had a good chuckle at some of the articles then closed the down page as it *differed from my opinion*

Click to expand...

FTFY!

BTW. I only selected it for the quotes! And I too chuckled!


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## Dando (Feb 21, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			FTFY!

BTW. I only selected it for the quotes! And I too chuckled!
		
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🤡


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## robinthehood (Feb 22, 2020)

Result, I see we have successfully negotiated the return of (French made) blue passports. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51585018


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## SocketRocket (Feb 22, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Result, I see we have successfully negotiated the return of (French made) blue passports. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51585018

Click to expand...

Can't wait for mine.


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## robinthehood (Feb 22, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Can't wait for mine.
		
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I know right. I've just renewed,  I should've hung on for a blue one and all the power it brings


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## SocketRocket (Feb 22, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			I know right. I've just renewed,  I should've hung on for a blue one and all the power it brings
		
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That's right. No more whiffs of garlic in the airport queue.  👍


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## Liverpoolphil (Feb 22, 2020)

https://amp.ft.com/content/8e82e01c-dbb6-11e5-a72f-1e7744c66818?__twitter_impression=true


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1231157303757414400
Added the twitter link 

Surely this can’t be right ?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 22, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://amp.ft.com/content/8e82e01c-dbb6-11e5-a72f-1e7744c66818?__twitter_impression=true

Surely this can’t be right ?
		
Click to expand...

Thats a subscription only link.


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## robinthehood (Feb 22, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://amp.ft.com/content/8e82e01c-dbb6-11e5-a72f-1e7744c66818?__twitter_impression=true

Surely this can’t be right ?
		
Click to expand...

Non paywall version here 😉

https://newsthump.com/2020/02/17/eu...-insist-brexiters-up-to-their-necks-in-water/


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## SocketRocket (Feb 22, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



https://amp.ft.com/content/8e82e01c-dbb6-11e5-a72f-1e7744c66818?__twitter_impression=true


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1231157303757414400
Added the twitter link

Surely this can’t be right ?
		
Click to expand...

Im not sure how this is relevant to the Brexit negotiations. Its about flooding in 2016.


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## Dando (Feb 22, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Im not sure how this is relevant to the Brexit negotiations. Its about flooding in 2016.
		
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just play along with their games and keep them entertained


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## Lord Tyrion (Feb 23, 2020)

Dando said:



			just play along with their games and keep them entertained
		
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We are also still paying in so will continue to be eligible for a range of EU payments.


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## Dibby (Feb 23, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Who is saying that - link please...
		
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It's called hyperbole, however if you honestly claim you have never heard any talk about how the UK will no longer be a world player, the UK economy will be ruined, all financial business will leave London etc... I would suggest you are not being honest.
As an aside if I was being literal, how can I link to how I have seen and heard some people act? Not everything in life is packaged for social media\online consumption.

On another track why is proximity a problem for the UK\EU deal, but not a problem for the deals the EU has with all it's Eastern land borders (As far as I know only Belarus and Russia don't have deals - due to being part of Russias bloc)?


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## drdel (Feb 23, 2020)

Dibby said:



			It's called hyperbole, however if you honestly claim you have never heard any talk about how the UK will no longer be a world player, the UK economy will be ruined, all financial business will leave London etc... I would suggest you are not being honest.
As an aside if I was being literal, how can I link to how I have seen and heard some people act? Not everything in life is packaged for social media\online consumption.

On another track why is proximity a problem for the UK\EU deal, but not a problem for the deals the EU has with all it's Eastern land borders (As far as I know only Belarus and Russia don't have deals - due to being part of Russias bloc)?
		
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'Proximity' is just another Brussels issue to add to their stonewall 'red herring' tactics. The real issue is their desire to ensure the UK does not succeed and become too competitive because the whole philosophy behind the EU is to control competition and protect their internal market while keeping the power within Brussels and away from members' parliaments.

I see Verhofstadt is now seeking to fund the 'centre' by a tax across the "Federation" to replace the member contributions. This, of course, would increase the power of Brussels since it could just raise these taxes unilaterally as the 'member' nations would be powerless.


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## doublebogey7 (Feb 23, 2020)

Dibby said:



			On another track why is proximity a problem for the UK\EU deal, but not a problem for the deals the EU has with all it's Eastern land borders (As far as I know only Belarus and Russia don't have deals - due to being part of Russias bloc)?
		
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You are right the EU does have deals with countries other countries,  but perhaps there might be a reason why the UK government is not asking for a Turkey https://infacts.org/briefings/turkish-option/


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## drdel (Feb 27, 2020)

Good speech (IMO) by Gove in HoC this morning: going to generate some heat with Barnier over next few weeks...

https://assets.publishing.service.g...68874/The_Future_Relationship_with_the_EU.pdf


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2020)

Gove talking tough tells us that if there isn't agreement on some basics (who decides the basics btw) by June then we are going to walk away.

_That would mean businesses being told they had six months to prepare for disruption at the borders, with customs checks, tariffs and quotas all likely to be imposed as Britain began trading with the EU under World Trade Organisation rules._ (Daily Telegraph - now)

But let's be positive - we are going for an Australia type agreement and - even though Australia doesn't actually yet have a trade agreement in place with the EU - we only need basics agreed by June.

https://www.dfat.gov.au/trade/agreements/negotiations/aeufta/Pages/default.aspx

What Australia will get we clearly don't yet know, and as we don't know what Australia will get I am not too sure how we can agree the basics of an 'Australia-style' deal in 6 months - never a full deal within a year...never mind...Gove did a speech that will have pleased many - onwards and upwards to WTO rule-taking and beyond


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## Hacker Khan (Feb 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Gove talking tough tells us that if there isn't agreement on some basics (who decides the basics btw) by June then we are going to walk away.

_That would mean businesses being told they had six months to prepare for disruption at the borders, with customs checks, tariffs and quotas all likely to be imposed as Britain began trading with the EU under World Trade Organisation rules._ (Daily Telegraph - now)

But let's be positive - we are going for an Australia type agreement and - even though Australia doesn't actually yet have a trade agreement in place with the EU - we only need basics agreed by June.

https://www.dfat.gov.au/trade/agreements/negotiations/aeufta/Pages/default.aspx

What Australia will get we clearly don't yet know, and as we don't know what Australia will get *I am not too sure how we can agree the basics of an 'Australia-style' deal in 6 months* - never a full deal within a year...never mind...Gove did a speech that will have pleased many - onwards and upwards to WTO rule-taking and beyond 

Click to expand...

I thought an Australia style deal is basically no deal, but just branded as a deal to fool those who do not want to ask any difficult questions?


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## SocketRocket (Feb 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			Good speech (IMO) by Gove in HoC this morning: going to generate some heat with Barnier over next few weeks...

https://assets.publishing.service.g...68874/The_Future_Relationship_with_the_EU.pdf

Click to expand...

Just scanned through it and it appears to be the bases of a fair future relationship with the EU and asks nothing more that the EU have already agreed with other countries.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Gove talking tough tells us that if there isn't agreement on some basics (who decides the basics btw) by June then we are going to walk away.

_That would mean businesses being told they had six months to prepare for disruption at the borders, with customs checks, tariffs and quotas all likely to be imposed as Britain began trading with the EU under World Trade Organisation rules._ (Daily Telegraph - now)

But let's be positive - we are going for an Australia type agreement and - even though Australia doesn't actually yet have a trade agreement in place with the EU - we only need basics agreed by June.

https://www.dfat.gov.au/trade/agreements/negotiations/aeufta/Pages/default.aspx

What Australia will get we clearly don't yet know, and as we don't know what Australia will get I am not too sure how we can agree the basics of an 'Australia-style' deal in 6 months - never a full deal within a year...never mind...Gove did a speech that will have pleased many - onwards and upwards to WTO rule-taking and beyond 

Click to expand...

Have you read the UK's draft document on the future relationship.  I cant see where it is suggesting and Australian type agreement, it states throughout of a similar agreement to that already agreed with Canada and Japan.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2020)

Yes - I'm confused - are we going for a Canada-style deal and if we can't get the basics of that sorted by June then we'll go for an Australia-style deal - even though one doesn't exist - or just go straight for WTO rule taking as the Telegraph seems to think...

I think this is as earlier this month Johnson said that if we couldn't get a Canada-style deal then we could have a deal simply based upon the Withdrawal Agreement - and that would be Australia-style.  

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...n-style-brexit-deal-mean-for-the-uk-kxd2j9dqw 

That that Australia-style deal is currently No Deal - I am thinking Johnson didn't mean that, but meant a deal that would look like what Australia is in negotiations with the EU over.  But that would surely require negotiating with the EU?


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			Good speech (IMO) by Gove in HoC this morning: going to generate some heat with Barnier over next few weeks...

https://assets.publishing.service.g...68874/The_Future_Relationship_with_the_EU.pdf

Click to expand...

A very interesting read, and thanks for posting up. Someone's done a huge body of work. One or two areas of potential conflict, e.g. there is no mention of the ECJ being the overarching body which the EU has continually stipulated.

Very fair and equitable in most areas, especially as it references pre-existing agreements with other countries to model the agreement on. Makes it very clear where the UK stands on subsidies and fair competition. What it doesn't mention in that respect is the potential to use tax breaks as (hidden) subsidies.

Unlike May's abortion, which the EU were ecstatic over, I think it a very decent framework.


----------



## drdel (Feb 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - I'm confused - are we going for a Canada-style deal and if we can't get the basics of that sorted by June then we'll go for an Australia-style deal - even though one doesn't exist - or just go straight for WTO rule taking as the Telegraph seems to think...

I think this is as earlier this month Johnson said that if we couldn't get a Canada-style deal then we could have a deal simply based upon the Withdrawal Agreement - and that would be Australia-style.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...n-style-brexit-deal-mean-for-the-uk-kxd2j9dqw

That that Australia-style deal is currently No Deal - I am thinking Johnson didn't mean that, but meant a deal that would look like what Australia is in negotiations with the EU over.  But that would surely require negotiating with the EU?
		
Click to expand...

I think you should take the time to read the Government's current publication - (its only 30 pages and quite a clear read) - it would be better than relying on media tit-bits. IMO opinion it is a pretty sensible document.

Here's is the 46page EU documents - bit of a harder read !
https://www.consilium.europa.eu/media/42736/st05870-ad01re03-en20.pdf


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## drdel (Feb 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			A very interesting read, and thanks for posting up. Someone's done a huge body of work. One or two areas of potential conflict, e.g. there is *no mention of the ECJ *being the overarching body which the EU has continually stipulated.

Very fair and equitable in most areas, especially as it references pre-existing agreements with other countries to model the agreement on. Makes it very clear where the UK stands on subsidies and fair competition. What it doesn't mention in that respect is the potential to use tax breaks as (hidden) subsidies.

Unlike May's abortion, which the EU were ecstatic over, I think it a very decent framework.
		
Click to expand...

I _think_ its not mentioned the ECJ as the implications are it has no functional role between UK -EU


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## bluewolf (Feb 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			One or two areas of potential conflict, e.g. there is no mention of the ECJ being the overarching body which the EU has continually stipulated.

.
		
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Lord forgive me for stepping back into this wasps nest, but.....

Has it? From what I've read, all the EU has asked for is that the ECJ should be used to determine only what the EU side is stipulating? The UK would need a similar body to clarify its position. If I've read (and understood) it correctly, then this seems a fairly logical position really.


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## Hobbit (Feb 27, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Lord forgive me for stepping back into this wasps nest, but.....

Has it? From what I've read, all the EU has asked for is that the ECJ should be used to determine only what the EU side is stipulating? The UK would need a similar body to clarify its position. If I've read (and understood) it correctly, then this seems a fairly logical position really.
		
Click to expand...

The piece I read said that both parties would form a mediating committee but if no agreement could be reached the ECJ would have the 'casting vote.'

To be honest, it was 'reported,' unlike the formal doc just issued by the UK govt. I've not bothered reading the EU's doc yet.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 27, 2020)

Surely it cannot be such that the ECJ or UK supreme Court have the overriding decision in a dispute as they cannot be independent.


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 27, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Lord forgive me for stepping back into this wasps nest, but.....
		
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I would image that WASPS are a major ethnicity within the UK.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 27, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			I would image that WASPS are a major ethnicity within the UK.
		
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No, they are a Rugby club


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## bluewolf (Feb 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Surely it cannot be such that the ECJ or UK supreme Court have the overriding decision in a dispute as they cannot be independent.
		
Click to expand...

I would agree. There would have to be an independent body set up to rule on such things. As I believe every other trade agreement has. Which is why I "think" that this is a case of poor reporting from certain vested interests, rather than an accurate representation of the facts. However, I'm more than willing to stand corrected if someone can highlight the actual statement


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## Ye Olde Boomer (Feb 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			No, they are a Rugby club  

Click to expand...

Union or League?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2020)

Johnson says in an interview that there will be no negotiation from the government's position as set out in the Future Relationship Document.  We'll see.  Looking for EU to move.

Also listened to where in his speech Gove mentioned Australia as a fall back to a Canada-style deal.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Johnson says in an interview that there will be no negotiation from the government's position as set out in the Future Relationship Document.  We'll see.  Looking for EU to move.
		
Click to expand...

I agree,  we will see


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## SocketRocket (Feb 27, 2020)

Ye Olde Boomer said:



			Union or League?
		
Click to expand...

Union


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## Hobbit (Feb 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Johnson says in an interview that there will be no negotiation from the government's position as set out in the Future Relationship Document.  We'll see.  Looking for EU to move.
		
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I'd put money on their being lots of negotiations. Its just posturing from Johnson, akin to Barnier's posturing a week ago.


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## drdel (Feb 27, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			No, they are a Rugby club  

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And not as big as Hornets !


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## drdel (Feb 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I'd put money on their being lots of negotiations. Its just posturing from Johnson, akin to Barnier's posturing a week ago.
		
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There's quite a bit of common ground the main difference is the EU seem to mention the "Union's interest" whereas the UK using'mutual'. Obviously the EU insisting on combining Fishing to trade, Ireland/NI and the Financial services bit are more challenging. Strategically I would have thought it a fairly straightforward negotiation.


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## Hobbit (Feb 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			There's quite a bit of common ground the main difference is the EU seem to mention the "Union's interest" whereas the UK using'mutual'. Obviously the EU insisting on combining Fishing to trade, Ireland/NI and the Financial services bit are more challenging. Strategically I would have thought it a fairly straightforward negotiation.
		
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I think it shows potential for being a great agreement. However, if its as good as it looks which is the next EU member state to leave and ask for the same deal? The EU might like it in isolation but there's a serious ramification to consider.


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## chrisd (Feb 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I think it shows potential for being a great agreement. However, if its as good as it looks which is the next EU member state to leave and ask for the same deal? The EU might like it in isolation but there's a serious ramification to consider.
		
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I think that if our leaving is as successful as it could be then it will inevitably see the much earlier break up of the EU. Countries will cluster together for trade deals between themselves and this will end as a Common Market- which is what I voted for back in the early 70's


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I'd put money on their being lots of negotiations. Its just posturing from Johnson, akin to Barnier's posturing a week ago.
		
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We will see.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We will see.
		
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 Would you be happier for the UK to get a poor deal


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## Beezerk (Feb 28, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Would you be happier for the UK to get a poor deal
		
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I honestly do think that some people would prefer that, just so they can stick their tongues out at people and go "naa naa naa, see I told you so".
Weird really.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 28, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Would you be happier for the UK to get a poor deal
		
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You really think that folks who voted to remain in the EU want to see our country and our economy damaged by us having a poor deal, when all along we argued against leaving the EU on the basis that we feared the country would be damaged by leaving because we wouldn't be able get a deal that would match up to what we had and compensate for all we lose...well maybe you do.

[EDIT]And I hear many Leave votes actually *wanting *UK to fail to agree a deal with the EU and for us to move to trading under WTO rules.


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## bluewolf (Feb 28, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I honestly do think that some people would prefer that, just so they can stick their tongues out at people and go "naa naa naa, see I told you so".
Weird really.
		
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I have 2 kids who will be entering the job market in the next 2-10 years. I'd be over the bloody moon if it was all sunlit uplands and great deals There isn't a person in this country who would be happier with a great deal than me.. Not one.. And I was (am) a staunch remainer. There is a world of difference between being concerned that we will be seriously disadvantaging ourselves, and not wanting whatever our final direction is to be a success.


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## drdel (Feb 28, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I have 2 kids who will be entering the job market in the next 2-10 years. I'd be over the bloody moon if it was all sunlit uplands and great deals There isn't a person in this country who would be happier with a great deal than me.. Not one.. And I was (am) a staunch remainer. There is a world of difference between being concerned that we will be seriously disadvantaging ourselves, and not wanting whatever our final direction is to be a success.
		
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But the EU may not be able (is very unlikely) to offer a brighter future - its running out of options. Germany looking at a prolonged period of budget deficit. France continues with unrest and is heavily reliant on the the EU continuing their massive support for French farmers, Italy is still a basket case, as is Greece. Most of the Eastern members are kept afloat by cash from the 5 main members. ECB can't sustain its pump priming of their market.

Globally China, Japan and many in the Far East have significant economic issues

The BoE and sterling give us control options over our economics. The supply chain vulnerabilities/disruptions caused by the (over) reaction to COVID 19 is causing the major importers to reconsider domestics sourcing which is good for UK firms.

I'd venture to say UK kids future prospects are far better here than in any of our close nations.


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## bluewolf (Feb 28, 2020)

drdel said:



			But the EU may not be able (is very unlikely) to offer a brighter future - its running out of options. Germany looking at a prolonged period of budget deficit. France continues with unrest and is heavily reliant on the the EU continuing their massive support for French farmers, Italy is still a basket case, as is Greece. Most of the Eastern members are kept afloat by cash from the 5 main members. ECB can't sustain its pump priming of their market.

Globally China, Japan and many in the Far East have significant economic issues

The BoE and sterling give us control options over our economics. The supply chain vulnerabilities/disruptions caused by the (over) reaction to COVID 19 is causing the major importers to reconsider domestics sourcing which is good for UK firms.

I'd venture to say UK kids future prospects are far better here than in any of our close nations.
		
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As with most things on here, this is "just" your opinion, albeit based on a current snapshot of many factors (an opinion which I have stated before that I respect). However, it is my belief that the economic future of this Union is better served as a leading member of a Trading Bloc. With a say in the direction of travel and with the backing of other member States. I believe that we will be in a better place to recover from future economic turbulence (that will affect us all, despite the split). 

I'd think that most would agree that the next 20-50 years are going to bring some sizable socio-economic shifts, especially with regards to population movements and farming practices. I would prefer us to be part of a team. It's a character flaw most likely linked to being a 2nd generation immigrant ;-)


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## drdel (Feb 28, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			As with most things on here, *this is "just" your opinion*, albeit based on a current snapshot of many factors (an opinion which I have stated before that I respect). However, it is my belief that the economic future of this Union is better served as a leading member of a Trading Bloc. With a say in the direction of travel and with the backing of other member States. I believe that we will be in a better place to recover from future economic turbulence (that will affect us all, despite the split).

I'd think that most would agree that the next 20-50 years are going to bring some sizable socio-economic shifts, especially with regards to population movements and farming practices. I would prefer us to be part of a team. It's a character flaw most likely linked to being a 2nd generation immigrant ;-)
		
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Absolutely that's all it is - just my views based on a bit of experience of international supply chain vulnerability and other economics stuff.


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## bluewolf (Feb 28, 2020)

drdel said:



			Absolutely that's all it is - just my views based on a bit of experience of international supply chain vulnerability and other economics stuff.
		
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I feel that I should point out that the reason I put the "Just" in quotation marks in my previous post was an attempt to avoid belittling your opinion. I appreciate that it may not have come across that way.


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## Hobbit (Feb 28, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			As with most things on here, this is "just" your opinion, albeit based on a current snapshot of many factors (an opinion which I have stated before that I respect). However, it is my belief that the economic future of this Union is better served as a leading member of a Trading Bloc. With a say in the direction of travel and with the backing of other member States. I believe that we will be in a better place to recover from future economic turbulence (that will affect us all, despite the split).

I'd think that most would agree that the next 20-50 years are going to bring some sizable socio-economic shifts, especially with regards to population movements and farming practices. I would prefer us to be part of a team. It's a character flaw most likely linked to being a 2nd generation immigrant ;-)
		
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Would a good deal, especially the one the UK would like, not give us pretty much all you ask for without the economic risks that the EU is facing... even the Erasmus programme is included?

As for the desire to be part of a trading bloc; yes please. But it isn't a level playing field for each of the member states. I'd cite the support Land Rover received to open a factory in the Czech Republic whilst one was then closed in the UK is a prime example of the skewed thinking. It is clearly against EU rules but the EU's own investigation(hahahahahaha) found otherwise. And you could add other instances so easily, e.g. Tata steel closing steel making on Teesside but getting huge grants and pay outs to open a plant in the Netherlands.


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## bluewolf (Feb 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Would a good deal, especially the one the UK would like, not give us pretty much all you ask for without the economic risks that the EU is facing... even the Erasmus programme is included?

As for the desire to be part of a trading bloc; yes please. But it isn't a level playing field for each of the member states. I'd cite the support Land Rover received to open a factory in the Czech Republic whilst one was then closed in the UK is a prime example of the skewed thinking. It is clearly against EU rules but the EU's own investigation(hahahahahaha) found otherwise. And you could add other instances so easily, e.g. Tata steel closing steel making on Teesside but getting huge grants and pay outs to open a plant in the Netherlands.
		
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All valid points, but not enough to convince me that separation is the answer.

With regards to the "Good Deal", as I've stated previously, I'm desperate for a good deal (or a great deal), but I genuinely don't think there will be one. If I was a betting man (and I'm not), I'd wager this weeks wage on a spectacular fall out, with both sides claiming the moral high ground, followed by a clamour for the "Australian" deal, which is actually No Deal. I still believe that the 2 sides are too far apart and that there is plenty of underhanded dealing going on, both in front of, and behind the media. I will gladly hold my hands up and accept that I'm wrong if it's otherwise (and I've been fairly consistent about the chances of a Deal for over 2 years)


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## SocketRocket (Feb 28, 2020)

I think the EU member countries want a deal just like the UK does, the stumbling block is whether the EU executive put punishing a leaver above free trading arrangements with an important trading market and one they have a sizable trading surplus with.
We are already separated even though in a short transition period so pontificating about separation is pointless, that boat has now sailed.  All we can do is make our best attempt at a mutual free trade deal that doesn't tie down our new competitive opportunities.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 29, 2020)

Not gone through the last seven pages so apologies if this has been mentioned. But why should the fishing rights in our waters be part of any deal. Is not the whole point of being independent that you can look after your industries and workforce’s. Do we have rights to french wineyards, bit flippant I know but am sure the fishermen who voted leave would be bogged off if nowt changed re EU trawlers in UK waters.


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## Kellfire (Feb 29, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Not gone through the last seven pages so apologies if this has been mentioned. But why should the fishing rights in our waters be part of any deal. Is not the whole point of being independent that you can look after your industries and workforce’s. Do we have rights to french wineyards, bit flippant I know but am sure the fishermen who voted leave would be bogged off if nowt changed re EU trawlers in UK waters.
		
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So we shouldn’t fish their waters either I assume so we have variation in the species of fish available to buy?
That’s a very little England attitude of “This is my ball and I decide who plays with it and if anyone tries to kick it I’m going home!”


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## Foxholer (Feb 29, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			So we shouldn’t fish their waters either I assume so we have variation in the species of fish available to buy?
*That’s a very little England attitude of “This is my ball and I decide who plays with it and if anyone tries to kick it I’m going home!”*

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Absolutely correct! There's a reason it's (universally) called a 'Little England attitude'!

And that's absolutely and precisely what Brexit was/is all about - for better (hopefully) or worse (unfortunately, imo, more likely)!
That said, access to fishing rights in UK waters is one of the 'major weapons' in the UK's negotiating team's arsenal. It's absolutely essential that they use it wisely!


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## drdel (Feb 29, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			So we shouldn’t fish their waters either I assume so we have variation in the species of fish available to buy?
That’s a very little England attitude of “This is my ball and I decide who plays with it and if anyone tries to kick it I’m going home!”
		
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It is simply a question of who is in control. The EU's fishing regs are too general and broad brushed it has allowed over fishing by EU fishing with large vessels that scrape the sea floor which is ruining sustainability: the UK simply intends to use a system of annual reviews to set quotas based on the state of the specific fish population. Seems eminently sensible to me.


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## Foxholer (Feb 29, 2020)

drdel said:



			...The EU's fishing regs are too general and broad brushed it has allowed over fishing by EU fishing with large vessels *that scrape the sea floor* which is ruining sustainability:...
		
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That's the way Cornish Oystermen have been working - sustainably - for over 150 years!

What 'fish' are the EU dregders targetting. Dredging (scraping the sea floor) is pretty much exclusively used to target shellfish.

I certainly agree that there's over-fishing happening - and in UK waters - but have serious doubts that it is via dredging; more likely to be siply too much 'efficient' nets targetting 'above sea-floor' fish.


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## chrisd (Feb 29, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			So we shouldn’t fish their waters either I assume so we have variation in the species of fish available to buy?
That’s a very little England attitude of “This is my ball and I decide who plays with it and if anyone tries to kick it I’m going home!”
		
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If you own the ball that is your prerogative 👍


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## SocketRocket (Feb 29, 2020)

The fact is that the UK's coastal waters now return to our control and we are free by international law to control them as we see fit.  There is no doubt that EU countries will be allocated fishing quotas but these quotas will be under the control of our own policy and not the EUs.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 29, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			So we shouldn’t fish their waters either I assume so we have variation in the species of fish available to buy?
That’s a very little England attitude of “This is my ball and I decide who plays with it and if anyone tries to kick it I’m going home!”
		
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You dont seem to apply your yardstick evenly and its nothing to do with 'little England' its a UK matter. .  Are the EU not making the same postures?


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## Kellfire (Feb 29, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			You dont seem to apply your yardstick evenly and its nothing to do with 'little England' its a UK matter. .  Are the EU not making the same postures?
		
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I’m saying it should be a two way street. Tashy’s attitude reeks of “you’re not welcome here”.


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## Rlburnside (Feb 29, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			That's the way Cornish Oystermen have been working - sustainably - for over 150 years!

What 'fish' are the EU dregders targetting. Dredging (scraping the sea floor) is pretty much exclusively used to target shellfish.

I certainly agree that there's over-fishing happening - and in UK waters - but have serious doubts that it is via dredging; more likely to be siply too much 'efficient' nets targetting 'above sea-floor' fish.
		
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As a fisherman I can tell you that there is very little if any overfishing by the U.K.  fleet we are under very strict quotas that are policed strictly. 

Our boats are boarded and inspected far more than boats from EU countries which is wrong, there are big  Dutch trawlers with large quotas fishing our waters, this will not change as the Dutch and other countries have brought U.K. quotas. 

It’s not as simple as saying ban all foreign boats in our waters some are within their rights to fish our waters. 
Im not very optimistic our politicians will fight hard enough for us as I fear they will as has happened in the past trade of our fishing rights for other priorities they have.


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## Rlburnside (Feb 29, 2020)

drdel said:



			It is simply a question of who is in control. The EU's fishing regs are too general and broad brushed it has allowed over fishing by EU fishing with large vessels that scrape the sea floor which is ruining sustainability: the UK simply intends to use a system of annual reviews to set quotas based on the state of the specific fish population. Seems eminently sensible to me.
		
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The large EU vessels you mention don’t generally scrape the sea bed as you put it most are mid water trawlers and if they did scrape the sea bed they would ruin their nets.  
What the government have set out in the fishing policy will be nothing like what will happen eventually, so whilst it might seem eminently sensible that’s not going to happen.


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## bluewolf (Feb 29, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			As a fisherman I can tell you that there is very little if any overfishing by the U.K.  fleet we are under very strict quotas that are policed strictly.

Our boats are boarded and inspected far more than boats from EU countries which is wrong, there are big  Dutch trawlers with large quotas fishing our waters, this will not change as the Dutch and other countries have brought U.K. quotas.

It’s not as simple as saying ban all foreign boats in our waters some are within their rights to fish our waters.
Im not very optimistic our politicians will fight hard enough for us as I fear they will as has happened in the past trade of our fishing rights for other priorities they have.
		
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Pardon the extremely bad pun, but you are a very small fish in a very large barrel. I’m all likelihood you will be sacrificed at the “Good deal” altar.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 29, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			As a fisherman I can tell you that there is very little if any overfishing by the U.K.  fleet we are under very strict quotas that are policed strictly.

Our boats are boarded and inspected far more than boats from EU countries which is wrong, there are big  Dutch trawlers with large quotas fishing our waters, this will not change as the Dutch and other countries have brought U.K. quotas.

It’s not as simple as saying ban all foreign boats in our waters some are within their rights to fish our waters.
Im not very optimistic our politicians will fight hard enough for us as I fear they will as has happened in the past trade of our fishing rights for other priorities they have.
		
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Ribby me man, some insight as to how the rest of the EU fished in our waters pre Brexit would be of interest to Tash. Was it good or bad.


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## Foxholer (Feb 29, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			As a fisherman I can tell you that there is very little if any overfishing by the U.K.  fleet we are under very strict quotas that are policed strictly.

Our boats are boarded and inspected far more than boats from EU countries which is wrong, there are big  Dutch trawlers with large quotas fishing our waters, this will not change as the Dutch and other countries have brought U.K. quotas.

It’s not as simple as saying ban all foreign boats in our waters some are within their rights to fish our waters.
Im not very optimistic our politicians will fight hard enough for us as I fear they will as has happened in the past trade of our fishing rights for other priorities they have.
		
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The above, and your confirmation re dredging also confirms my suspicion that DrDel's post was twaddle/propaganda!
But it also raises the, more important imo, issue of how quotas are policed! If UK Government hasn't build (or doesn't build) the cost of policing quotas in allocations to 'foreign' trawlers - and hasn't done (doesn't do) the policing, then it is (or will be) the UK Government that is (or will be) to blame for any overfishing! Obviously, there must be a transition period, but I believe that allocation and policing of quotas has always been UK's responsibility! So, like you, I'm not confident that the 'small' fishermen will be given a fair share! As ever, quotas or other licensing arrangements - good intentioned as they may be - simply distort the 'market'! This article provides frightening confirmation of what can happen! http://www.marinet.org.uk/who-owns-the-uk-fishing-industry-and-its-fishing-quotas.html

That said, I'm now off to do my bit to help the industry, by consuming some of its product!


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## Hobbit (Feb 29, 2020)

Just a follow up from Riburnside, and he'll know way better than me. Have a look at the fishing agreements the EU have with non-EU countries, especially west African countries. For all the environmental cwap they spout the EU has agreements that are absolutely destroying the Atlantic fishing grounds. The fisheries policies/quotas set out in the 70's and 80's have long since been seen as wrong but big business is lining the pockets of someone in the EU for them to still be in force.

The UK fishing fleets were long since bought out by EU based companies. They might be UK flagged but they are EU based.


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## ColchesterFC (Feb 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The UK fishing fleets were long since bought out by EU based companies. They might be UK flagged but they are EU based.
		
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One of the big points being made is that 80% of our fish is sold in to the EU market and so we need to agree access to the market to continue selling our fish. But if the majority of the UK fleet (saw one stat that said 75%) is actually foreign owned then doesn't that mean that the EU need to negotiate access for their boats and also access to the EU market to allow their boats to continue selling the fish?


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## Rlburnside (Feb 29, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Just a follow up from Riburnside, and he'll know way better than me. Have a look at the fishing agreements the EU have with non-EU countries, especially west African countries. For all the environmental cwap they spout the EU has agreements that are absolutely destroying the Atlantic fishing grounds. The fisheries policies/quotas set out in the 70's and 80's have long since been seen as wrong but big business is lining the pockets of someone in the EU for them to still be in force.

The UK fishing fleets were long since bought out by EU based companies. They might be UK flagged but they are EU based.
		
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Your last paragraph is not really the case, whilst some EU boats that fish our waters have legal access our U.K. fleet still have plenty of quota to sustain the industry.


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## Rlburnside (Feb 29, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Ribby me man, some insight as to how the rest of the EU fished in our waters pre Brexit would be of interest to Tash. Was it good or bad.
		
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The foreign boats that fished  our waters pre Brexit was never good for our fleet, but being in the EU we had to accept it. 

We have Dutch, French, Spanish boats fishing our waters alongside our boats, there has always been anger that the U.K. fisheries patrol vessels don’t board the EU boats to inspect catches as often as they board our boats, so while our boats are strictly policed some of the foreign boats overfish. 
We need our markets in the EU our boat lands the majority of our fish in Denmark or Norway, Norway is slightly different regarding the EU. 

The politicians were quick to tell the public pre the referendum that we will set our own limits and ban the foreign vessels from our waters but this was always unworkable and not legal. 
But as my industry has never been treated fairly by our politicians (as has yours) I fear we will be sold down the river. 

Anyway home you go out sometime and enjoy a fish supper.


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## Tashyboy (Feb 29, 2020)

Riibby thanks for the reply. Hope it works out well me man.


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## SocketRocket (Feb 29, 2020)

Rlburnside said:



			Your last paragraph is not really the case, whilst some EU boats that fish our waters have legal access our U.K. fleet still have plenty of quota to sustain the industry.
		
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Are you suggesting UK boats currently have no problems with their quotas so we don't need any more?


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## Rlburnside (Mar 1, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Are you suggesting UK boats currently have no problems with their quotas so we don't need any more?
		
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No I’m not saying that there will always be problems with quotas, more  quotas are not necessarily a good thing in some cases, mackerel quotas have been increased by 40% this year , so more fish will be landed and the price will be lowered.


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## patricks148 (Mar 1, 2020)

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...IxAPeU1eldzWTFmx0RTuyDIDzVqQaDXyYzhDOSndNy0UY 

lets hope none of this is true for the sake of Farming and our Fishing


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 1, 2020)

patricks148 said:



https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/01/-gdneco&fbclid=IwAR1wtg99S6kOYPIxAPeU1eldzWTFmx0RTuyDIDzVqQaDXyYzhDOSndNy0UY

lets hope none of this is true for the sake of Farming and our Fishing
		
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I'm loving this obsession with being like Singapore. Personally I'd of chosen one of the Scandinavian countries to try and emulate with their high standards of living and public services. But capitalism gone mad in a highly deregulated environment where standards are eroded in the name of profit and everything has its price may also work. Well if you are rich it will, which is the most important thing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 2, 2020)

Fret ye not for you 


Rlburnside said:



			As a fisherman I can tell you that there is very little if any overfishing by the U.K.  fleet we are under very strict quotas that are policed strictly.

Our boats are boarded and inspected far more than boats from EU countries which is wrong, there are big  Dutch trawlers with large quotas fishing our waters, this will not change as the Dutch and other countries have brought U.K. quotas.

It’s not as simple as saying ban all foreign boats in our waters some are within their rights to fish our waters.
Im not very optimistic our politicians will fight hard enough for us as I fear they will as has happened in the past trade of our fishing rights for other priorities they have.
		
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Fret ye not for you will have Farage the Fisherman's Friend fighting your corner.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 2, 2020)

patricks148 said:



https://www.theguardian.com/politic...IxAPeU1eldzWTFmx0RTuyDIDzVqQaDXyYzhDOSndNy0UY

lets hope none of this is true for the sake of Farming and our Fishing
		
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Do these fo*ls not understand the role that farming and farmers play in managing our countryside...and how critical small scale fishing is to many of the UKs 'edge' communities - those same communities that the EU provided focussed funding due to their sensitive and fragile nature.


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## Mudball (Mar 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Do these fo*ls not understand the role that farming and farmers play in managing our countryside...and how critical small scale fishing is to many of the UKs 'edge' communities - those same communities that the EU provided focussed funding due to their sensitive and fragile nature.
		
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Does anyone care about EU funding for edge communities as long Londoners benefit and can take their South of France holidays with their blue passport.   Ironically, Brexshit is likely to impact some of those who voted for it than those who did not. (just an uninformed observation before someone asks me for proof)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 2, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Does anyone care about EU funding for edge communities as long Londoners benefit and can take their South of France holidays with their blue passport.   Ironically, Brexshit is likely to impact some of those who voted for it than those who did not. (just an uninformed observation before someone asks me for proof)
		
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I have crofter/farmer relatives one of the Inner Hebrides and they used to get much focussed support from the EU as well as the Scottish Government.  They are very concerned about what will happen when the funding goes - and also very concerned about their markets for lamb and their cattle.  If their lamb and cattle markets are undermined or undercut then the economies of these communities are going to be at very high risk of collapse - and if the island farming and fishing economies collapse then island depopulation will be drastic.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have crofter/farmer relatives one of the Inner Hebrides and they used to get much focussed support from the EU as well as the Scottish Government.  They are very concerned about what will happen when the funding goes - and also very concerned about their markets for lamb and their cattle.  If their lamb and cattle markets are undermined or undercut then the economies of these communities are going to be at very high risk of collapse - and if the island farming and fishing economies collapse then island depopulation will be drastic.
		
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What a crock of claptrap.  They get nothing from the EU.   The rabid remain gang are on form here and need to take a good spoonful of reality.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			What a crock of claptrap.  They get nothing from the EU.   The rabid remain gang are on form here and need to take a good spoonful of reality.
		
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OK - so when my relatives tell me how concerned they are they are talking claptrap.  I'll let them know some expert in crofting in the Western Isles who lives in the south of England tells them not to worry.  Boris will see them OK.  

Don't forget - there is not a remain gang anymore - there are ex-leave voters - some seemingly very paranoid - with fingers crossed and willing to excuse anything and any behaviour of the government, and a load of weary and rather philosophical ex-remain voters


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## Mudball (Mar 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			What a crock of claptrap.  They get nothing from the EU.   The rabid remain gang are on form here and need to take a good spoonful of reality.
		
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Love the stock response..  Claim Remainers are fear mongers and Leavers know better..    Reality check - that boat has sailed we are all leavers.    Also good to know that you apparently know more than someone who is affected.  Its me sitting in London saying that I cant see any flooding outside my window and those in Shropshire are just having a bad hair day.   

Brexit is more likely to bite the arse that is linked to the hand that fed it, rather than latte sipping London liberals..


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## Twire (Mar 2, 2020)

I did ask earlier in this thread not to take it down the same route as the other brexit thread.

Can I suggest some of you change your posting style to be less condescending, confrontational and aggressive.

I won't be asking again!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			OK - so when my relatives tell me how concerned they are they are talking claptrap.  I'll let them know some expert in crofting in the Western Isles who lives in the south of England tells them not to worry.  Boris will see them OK. 

Don't forget - there is not a remain gang anymore - there are ex-leave voters - some seemingly very paranoid - with fingers crossed and willing to excuse anything and any behaviour of the government, and a load of weary and rather philosophical ex-remain voters
		
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OK. Please explain to me how your crofter relatives received funds from the EU and not the UK.   By the way, my comments were directed to you.


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## drdel (Mar 2, 2020)

Twire said:



			I did ask earlier in this thread not to take it down the same route as the other brexit thread.

Can I suggest some of you change your posting style to be less condescending, confrontational and aggressive.

I won't be asking again!
		
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Might be an idea to 'punish' the offenders rather that label/punish the whole class.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			OK. Please explain to me how your crofter relatives received funds from the EU and not the UK.   By the way, my comments were directed to you.
		
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I have little idea - this is what they told me what they were very worried about - that and the impact of the price of lamb they get being undercut.  

They may well be wrong about the funding - though they are worried about that - even if it goes to the Scottish Government first - I do not know - certainly their worries about the price they will get for their lambs seem valid.  And it was the government adviser who seemed to be suggesting that fishing and farming are that not important in the great scheme of things.


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## bobmac (Mar 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And it was the government adviser who seemed to be suggesting that fishing and farming are that not important in the great scheme of things.
		
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Talk about cherry picking. 
You missed this bit......

_''The government has, however, distanced itself from the comments made by the Treasury adviser. A spokesman said: “We have made clear the comments are not in line with government policy.”_


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## Mudball (Mar 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have little idea - this is what they told me what they were very worried about - that and the impact of the price of lamb they get being undercut. 

They may well be wrong about the funding - though they are worried about that - even if it goes to the Scottish Government first - I do not know - certainly their worries about the price they will get for their lambs seem valid.  And it was the government adviser who seemed to be suggesting that fishing and farming are that not important in the great scheme of things.
		
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May be just leftist BBC view >> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-38295652 

I just realised that the europeans are stealing our waters too >> https://ec.europa.eu/regional_polic...l-craft-beer-production-in-the-outer-hebrides


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## Twire (Mar 2, 2020)

drdel said:



			Might be an idea to 'punish' the offenders rather that label/punish the whole class.

Click to expand...


Did you miss the bit where I said "some of you" 

At no point have I labeled or said I would punish the "whole class".


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## SocketRocket (Mar 2, 2020)

Mudball said:



			May be just leftist BBC view >> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-38295652 

I just realised that the europeans are stealing our waters too >> https://ec.europa.eu/regional_polic...l-craft-beer-production-in-the-outer-hebrides

Click to expand...

Another post that completely mis states the way EU funding is used.    The EU didnt have people driving around the UK with wads of money in the boot of their cars looking for poor soles who needed it.  The requirement for funding is made to the EU by the UK Government (You know, those wicked Tories who's only policy is robbing the poor to waste on the rich) the EU would consider the application and if acceptable would pay part of the funding and the UK would pay the rest.  Another tiny point to consider is that as net contributors their share was from the money we pay to them anyhow.  What's not to like about that 🤔


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## MegaSteve (Mar 2, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Talk about cherry picking. 
You missed this bit......

_''The government has, however, distanced itself from the comments made by the Treasury adviser. A spokesman said: “We have made clear the comments are not in line with government policy.”_

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Well, here's hoping they back up their words with action... And, not sell fishing/farming out...


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## Mudball (Mar 2, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Talk about cherry picking. 
You missed this bit......

_''The government has, however, distanced itself from the comments made by the Treasury adviser. A spokesman said: “We have made clear the comments are not in line with government policy.”_

Click to expand...

I wont read too much into the denial or the idea.   this is classic PR approach..   get some wierdo to float an idea.  See how joe public react and then either adopt it or distance yourself.  Easy way to test things, happens all the time.    I am not surprised that the 'data' shows F&F is only 1% and this is a similar profile to Singapore so as per any good management consultants Singapore is the model to gun for. Reality is that Data often ignores emotions and sometimes the context related to people.


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## woody69 (Mar 3, 2020)

drdel said:



			Good speech (IMO) by Gove in HoC this morning: going to generate some heat with Barnier over next few weeks...

https://assets.publishing.service.g...68874/The_Future_Relationship_with_the_EU.pdf

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Funny. All I heard was spin, waffle and contradictions


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 3, 2020)

Looks like the 'much vaunted' US Trade Deal we will negotiate quickly and easily to compensate for any loss of EU Single Market access, may well have been a little over-sold...according to Johnson.  

I am not sure the Leave argument went along the lines...

_In its negotiating blueprint, Mr. Johnson’s government predicted that even if the talks were highly successful, an American deal would expand the British economy, at most, by 0.16 percent by the middle of the next decade.

This more circumspect tone reflects the realization that a trade deal with the United States was always going to be far less important for Britain than its parallel talks with the European Union, given their greater trade and closer integration._

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/othe...aybe-not-now/ar-BB10FyeR?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=iehp 

In the light of this let's hope that the EU needs us as more than we need the EU, and that we DO manage to negotiate a great deal with the EU and that we do not walk away - we might need that EU deal...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 3, 2020)

woody69 said:



			Funny. All I heard was spin, waffle and contradictions
		
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And separately - the experts in the coronovirus briefing were also excellent.  Good that Johnson was visibly showing some leadership for the country.  I used to have some trust in Gove when he said he couldn't in all honesty conscience Johnson as PM back then...and then we had May.


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## Leftie (Mar 3, 2020)

woody69 said:



			Funny. All I heard was spin, waffle and contradictions
		
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Ah.  A typical politician then.  Nothing new there


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## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2020)

woody69 said:



			Funny. All I wanted to hear was spin, waffle and contradictions
		
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 FTFY.


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## drdel (Mar 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Looks like the 'much vaunted' US Trade Deal we will negotiate quickly and easily to compensate for any loss of EU Single Market access, may well have been a little over-sold...according to Johnson. 

I am not sure the Leave argument went along the lines...

_In its negotiating blueprint, Mr. Johnson’s government predicted that even if the talks were highly successful, an American deal would expand the British economy, at most, by 0.16 percent by the middle of the next decade._

_This more circumspect tone reflects the realization that a trade deal with the United States was always going to be far less important for Britain than its parallel talks with the European Union, given their greater trade and closer integration._

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/othe...aybe-not-now/ar-BB10FyeR?li=BBoPWjQ&ocid=iehp

In the light of this* let's hope that the EU needs us as more than we need the EU*, and that we DO manage to negotiate a great deal with the EU and that we do not walk away - we might need that EU deal...
		
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Therein lies the issue - some members Germany, Spain etc need to UK because they depend heavily on their exports to the UK. France however exports less to us so, apart from angry French fishermen, they/Macron can be the hard guys. Barnier's aim is to discourage/prevent any of the R27 from following the UK.

Little economic logic still exists Consequently we are not dealing with an set of uniform (democratic) aims and objectives.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2020)

drdel said:



			Therein lies the issue - some members Germany, Spain etc need to UK because they depend heavily on their exports to the UK. France however exports less to us so, apart from angry French fishermen, they/Macron can be the hard guys. Barnier's aim is to discourage/prevent any of the R27 from following the UK.

Little economic logic still exists Consequently we are not dealing with an set of uniform (democratic) aims and objectives.
		
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Its speaks volumes for an organisation that needs to scare its members not to leave.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 3, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Its speaks volumes for an organisation that needs to scare its members not to leave.
		
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A bit like the Remain campaign in the referendum. It was all about the perceived negatives of voting to leave rather than the benefits of voting to remain.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 3, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			A bit like the Remain campaign in the referendum. It was all about the perceived negatives of voting to leave rather than the benefits of voting to remain.
		
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when the Leave campaign was all about taking back control (and then gambling that EU will agree a deal else we trade under WTO rules) and the great trade deal we will have with the US (that Johnson now says might only provide us with 0.15% on GDP).

ah well. Blue passports.  What’s not to like.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			when the Leave campaign was all about taking back control (and then gambling that EU will agree a deal else we trade under WTO rules) and the great trade deal we will have with the US (that Johnson now says might only provide us with 0.15% on GDP).

ah well.
		
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Classic "whataboutery"! My comment was about the remain campaign. Regardless of what the leave campaign was about are you really trying to say that remain wasn't a negative campaign?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 3, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Classic "whataboutery"! My comment was about the remain campaign. Regardless of what the leave campaign was about are you really trying to say that remain wasn't a negative campaign?
		
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It was a campaign full of concerns and trying to debunk myths developed by the right wing media over decades and spouted by the Leave campaign.  It wasn’t punchy enough.  Besides - this thread is about the negotiations and life after Brexit - not the remain campaign


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It was a campaign full of concerns and trying to debunk myths developed by the right wing media over decades and spouted by the Leave campaign.  It wasn’t *positive *enough.
		
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Fixed that for you as you clearly aren't prepared to answer the question.


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## Hobbit (Mar 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It was a campaign full of concerns and trying to debunk myths developed by the right wing media over decades and spouted by the Leave campaign.  It wasn’t punchy enough.  Besides - this thread is about the negotiations and life after Brexit - not the remain campaign
		
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Osbourne's comment that each household would lose £4,200 was pretty punchy.... shame that was immediately debunked by the Treasury and a House of Commons Select committee. And then there's the 500,000 job losses by the first Christmas... and we have the lowest unemployment rate in over 40 years, all achieved whilst the population has increased by over 500,000. And don't forget the emergency budget that would be needed by Christmas 2016.... all just concerns eh? All Osbourne's lies.

Full of concerns my ar5e, it was just as full of lies as the Leave campaign. Something you've never acknowledged. You are still repeating the same rubbish you have for over 3.5 years. Have you learned nothing?


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## SocketRocket (Mar 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			when the Leave campaign was all about taking back control (and then gambling that EU will agree a deal else we trade under WTO rules) and the great trade deal we will have with the US (that Johnson now says might only provide us with 0.15% on GDP).

*ah well. Blue passports.  What’s not to like*.
		
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Pathetic childish comment.  Why do you do it, you are not a stupid person.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Pathetic childish comment.  Why do you do it, you are not a stupid person.
		
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Simply because some of us in important positions seem to think Blue Passports as a result of Brexit are very significant.  And what is so significant is that it is blue...red no good.


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## robinthehood (Mar 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Pathetic childish comment.  Why do you do it, you are not a stupid person.
		
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Tbf it's been paraded as a big deal and a brexit success ,  when we could have always had blue passports had we chosen to.


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## chrisd (Mar 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Simply because some of us in important positions seem to think Blue Passports as a result of Brexit are very significant.  And what is so significant is that it is blue...red no good.
		
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But those with any common sense are actually majoring on the things that really count,  but I understand that you aren't going to accept  being a loser gracefully


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 4, 2020)

chrisd said:



			But *those with any common sense are actually majoring on the things that really count, * but I understand that you aren't going to accept  being a loser gracefully
		
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Like Priti Patel in this photo?  

I get that there is a lot of desperately seeking positives going on at the moment as we enter negotiation with the EU - and maybe they will indeed become evident in the years and decades to come - but I'm not sure a US trade deal delivering 0.16% growth in the economy by 2035 was something that we were led to expect would come about once we were free of the EU shackles.  But maybe that was always going to be the case and those that knew aren't surprised.

Anyway - here's hoping the EU is needing us or feeling generous to us - or both - and the basics of good deal are agreed is the coming 4 months - though that's not a lot of time.


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## chrisd (Mar 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Like Priti Patel in this photo? 

I get that there is a lot of desperately seeking positives going on at the moment as we enter negotiation with the EU - and maybe they will indeed become evident in the years and decades to come - but I'm not sure a US trade deal delivering 0.16% growth in the economy by 2035 was something that we were led to expect would come about once we were free of the EU shackles.  But maybe that was always going to be the case and those that knew aren't surprised.

Anyway - here's hoping the EU is needing us or feeling generous to us - or both - and the basics of good deal are agreed is the coming 4 months - though that's not a lot of time.
		
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I frankly dont care in the least. The EU has needs us more than we need them, soon other countries will leave and the big plan will fail, various countries will then re-form the long forgotten Common Market and trade very successfully without unelected idiots bossing them around. The colour of passports is a Home Office matter and I'd expect her to be photographed with one.


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## robinthehood (Mar 4, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I frankly dont care in the least. The EU has needs us more than we need them, soon other countries will leave and the big plan will fail, various countries will then re-form the long forgotten Common Market and trade very successfully without unelected idiots bossing them around. The colour of passports is a Home Office matter and I'd expect her to be photographed with one.
		
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Do They? I've spent a lot of time in the EU and to be honest most people don't care. Your above statement is just wishful thinking.


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## chrisd (Mar 4, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Do They? I've spent a lot of time in the EU and to be honest most people don't care. Your above statement is just wishful thinking.
		
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I've spent a lot of time in the EU too - from the day we joined actually !


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 4, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I frankly dont care in the least. The EU has needs us more than we need them, soon other countries will leave and the big plan will fail, various countries will then re-form the long forgotten Common Market and trade very successfully* without unelected idiots bossing them around*. The colour of passports is a Home Office matter and I'd expect her to be photographed with one.
		
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Jeez, why is everyone so down on Dominic Cummings???


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## drdel (Mar 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Like Priti Patel in this photo? 

I get that there is a lot of desperately seeking positives going on at the moment as we enter negotiation with the EU - and maybe they will indeed become evident in the years and decades to come - but I'm not sure a US trade deal delivering 0.16% growth in the economy by 2035 was something that we were led to expect would come about once we were free of the EU shackles.  But maybe that was always going to be the case and those that knew aren't surprised.

Anyway - here's hoping the EU is needing us or feeling generous to us - or both - and the basics of good deal are agreed is the coming 4 months - though that's not a lot of time.
		
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Instead of viewing matters from the past you might find some solace by looking forward. In the last 3/4 years many of the member states are looking down a rocky economic road.Consider the mess Brussels is making of running the EU. Incompetence exists across a range of fronts (Greece/Turkey borders. Budget planning, Vast sums dished out to France on CAP. Out of control MEP spending (£6m summer 'expenses'). 

The EU is not doing a grand job of running things and (IMO) the UK would have been soaked heavily for their mismanagement.

It seems you want everything to change in an instance and continue to decry anything the UK does when in fact most countries across the globe still respect the UK.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 4, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Jeez, why is everyone so down on Dominic Cummings???
		
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Because he's taking too long to drain the swamp.


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## bluewolf (Mar 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Because he's taking too long to drain the swamp.
		
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Do you not see the irony in supporting one un-elected bureaucrat who is effectively running the Country, whilst decrying another set of (in your opinion) un-elected bureaucrats who you (wrongly in my opinion) believe are running the Country.. If you're going to rail against them, then rail against them all..


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## SocketRocket (Mar 4, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Do you not see the irony in supporting one un-elected bureaucrat who is effectively running the Country, whilst decrying another set of (in your opinion) un-elected bureaucrats who you (wrongly in my opinion) believe are running the Country.. If you're going to rail against them, then rail against them all..
		
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Get a sence of humour Danny 😄


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## bluewolf (Mar 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Get a sence of humour Danny 😄
		
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Fair enough.. I'll be honest and state that my sense of humour is sadly lacking where Mr. Cummings is concerned. Quite possibly the most dangerous person in politics at the moment.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 4, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Fair enough.. I'll be honest and state that my sense of humour is sadly lacking where Mr. Cummings is concerned. Quite possibly the most dangerous person in politics at the moment.
		
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Hope for consistencies sake you had the same misgivings for Alastair Campbell in the Blair years.😉


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## bluewolf (Mar 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Hope for consistencies sake you had the same misgivings for Alastair Campbell in the Blair years.😉
		
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I did, although his role was quite different and his influence much less. Cummings appears to be the actual power behind the frontman Boris. I really don't think that Campbell ever had as much power as Cummings.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Hope for consistencies sake you had the same misgivings for Alastair Campbell in the Blair years.😉
		
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It all started with Bernard Ingram! PM's since Maggie, maybe before but I get the impression he was the first bruiser to come out and be open about it, have had 'trusted' advisors in one capacity or another. Cummings seems to be aggressive in the Campbell mould but each PM for many years have had unelected, non civil servants, at their sides. (I know that Ingram was classed as the press officer but he was much more than that)


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## drdel (Mar 4, 2020)

I'm sure Cummings would be very amused by the intellectual credit and power attributed to him. 

We might want to remember the HoC has 600+ members, another 300 sit in the HoL Most work is done by Cross Party committees with the help of very able Civil servants across the various departments. Cummings may *advise* the PM and 'have his ear' but I think the PM is no walk-over and the democratic machinery of the UK's Parliamentary system of government is well able to cope.


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## Foxholer (Mar 4, 2020)

drdel said:



			I'm sure Cummings would be very amused by the *intellectual credit and power* attributed to him....
		
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I believe his ego is even greater than either of those attributes!

But that view is rather distorted by the attitude of (at least much of) the Press, or at least much of it, who seem to object to and criticise anyone who might exert influence politicians more than any/all of them! And such 'power games' create their own news stories!


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## bluewolf (Mar 4, 2020)

drdel said:



			I'm sure Cummings would be very amused by the intellectual credit and power attributed to him.
		
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There is a significant difference between the 2 attributes you have mentioned. I strongly suspect that his "power" outweighs his "intellect". 

Still, it's very easy to support someone who, on the surface, is giving you what you want. The real test of character is when you recognise that there is an issue even when that issue is in your favour.


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## drdel (Mar 4, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			There is a significant difference between the 2 attributes you have mentioned. I strongly suspect that his "power" outweighs his "intellect". 

Still, it's very easy to support someone who, on the surface, is giving you what you want. The real test of character is when you recognise that there is an issue even when that issue is in your favour.
		
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Promotion to beyond capability is a common issue.


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## bluewolf (Mar 4, 2020)

drdel said:



			Promotion to beyond capability is a common issue.
		
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Very much agree. On all sides of the discussion.


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## Hobbit (Mar 4, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I did, although his role was quite different and his influence much less. Cummings appears to be the actual power behind the frontman Boris. I really don't think that Campbell ever had as much power as Cummings.
		
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He didn't. Mendelson wielded the axe on behalf of Blair.


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## Hobbit (Mar 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Like Priti Patel in this photo? 

I get that there is a lot of desperately seeking positives going on at the moment as we enter negotiation with the EU - and maybe they will indeed become evident in the years and decades to come - but I'm not sure a US trade deal delivering 0.16% growth in the economy by 2035 was something that we were led to expect would come about once we were free of the EU shackles.  But maybe that was always going to be the case and those that knew aren't surprised.

Anyway - here's hoping the EU is needing us or feeling generous to us - or both - and the basics of good deal are agreed is the coming 4 months - though that's not a lot of time.
		
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I wouldn't trust her with a school crossing. Certainly an appointment I just don't understand. Too much of a loose cannon for me.


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## Foxholer (Mar 4, 2020)

drdel said:



			Promotion to beyond capability is a common issue.
		
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The Peter Principle!

Seen it; experienced it! Nearly partaken of it (twice), but recognised it in time to avoid and still 'improve my status'!


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## SocketRocket (Mar 4, 2020)

Some flowers only blossom when exposed to the sun. The clever part is someone recognising the potential.

Some of these senior civil servants look like dower jobsworths who would struggle to excell outside their current roles.


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## Mudball (Mar 5, 2020)

Funny to hear Boris referring you scientists and experts when talking about Corona today.... I thought his camp’s motto was ‘we have too many experts, don’t listen to them’ ...


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## Hobbit (Mar 7, 2020)

Record number of UK expats are leaving Spain and France.... for Portugal. Portugal has changed its tax take from immigrants, and its also attracted a lot of (current) UK citizens. How very dare the Portuguese create tax havens!! And them being left wing too...!


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## bluewolf (Mar 7, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Record number of UK expats are leaving Spain and France.... for Portugal. Portugal has changed its tax take from immigrants, and its also attracted a lot of (current) UK citizens. How very dare the Portuguese create tax havens!! And them being left wing too...!
		
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I know absolutely nothing about this, so I have only one question... 
Are they creating “tax havens” for people or businesses?
Or both I suppose 😂


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## Hobbit (Mar 7, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I know absolutely nothing about this, so I have only one question...
Are they creating “tax havens” for people or businesses?
Or both I suppose 😂
		
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Don't know about businesses, although in that respect there's always Ireland's low Corp tax... Portugal have offered 0% income tax for the first 2 years of immigration. As you can imagine, saving 20% of a decent sum over 2 years can be quite a sum.

Spain have also offered a non-lucrative residencia visa for those bringing a decent lump sum into the country... there's all sorts of tax breaks around it.

Both the above have not been welcomed by the EU Commission.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 7, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Don't know about businesses, although in that respect there's always Ireland's low Corp tax... Portugal have offered 0% income tax for the first 2 years of immigration. As you can imagine, saving 20% of a decent sum over 2 years can be quite a sum.

Spain have also offered a non-lucrative residencia visa for those bringing a decent lump sum into the country... there's all sorts of tax breaks around it.

Both the above have not been welcomed by the EU Commission.
		
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I thought the EU were concerned about the UK becoming a low tax competitor.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I thought the EU were concerned about the UK becoming a low tax competitor.
		
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You've missed some key words off the end of that sentence.... "outside of their control" is the bit that really concerns them. The EU can reprimand Spain or Portugal or get them to reverse those decisions if they go against EU rules/laws. Once we've left they can't do that to the UK.


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## Mudball (Mar 19, 2020)

Is Brexit still going ahead??  Does anyone care?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 19, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Is Brexit still going ahead??  Does anyone care?
		
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Well just heard reported that Barnier has contracted coronavirus - and some sickos texting that that is the best news they've heard for weeks.  The same folks are probably giving thumbs up to Trump's _'it's what I prefer to accurately call the China/Chinese Virus'..._


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## Mudball (Mar 19, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well just heard reported that Barnier has contracted coronavirus - and *some sickos texting that that is the best news they've heard for weeks*.  The same folks are probably giving thumbs up to Trump's _'it's what I prefer to accurately call the China/Chinese Virus'..._

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Really?  I guess it takes all kind of people to make this world


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## Wolf (Mar 19, 2020)

Is Brexit really important right now in the grand scheme of things.. Imo No its not, we need to focus on the country coming together to support the vulnerable and get through a very testing time as one nation, then and only then should we pursue the other elephant in the room. Obviously some will disagree with me on that but its just my opinion that what we're currently facing takes the focus. As for the morons and comments re Barnier contracting it that just shows what scum some people are.


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## pauljames87 (Mar 19, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Is Brexit really important right now in the grand scheme of things.. Imo No its not, we need to focus on the country coming together to support the vulnerable and get through a very testing time as one nation, then and only then should we pursue the other elephant in the room. Obviously some will disagree with me on that but its just my opinion that what we're currently facing takes the focus. As for the morons and comments re Barnier contracting it that just shows what scum some people are.
		
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I litterally think everything needs a pin in it right now

Football season
Brexit 
School years 

Pin the lot

Deal with what happens after this

Focus on getting people paid etc so they don't lose their home be that rent or not 

But the other stuff.. really doesn't matter right now


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## bluewolf (Mar 19, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Is Brexit really important right now in the grand scheme of things.. Imo No its not, we need to focus on the country coming together to support the vulnerable and get through a very testing time as one nation, then and only then should we pursue the other elephant in the room. Obviously some will disagree with me on that but its just my opinion that what we're currently facing takes the focus. As for the morons and comments re Barnier contracting it that just shows what scum some people are.
		
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Whilst I 100% agree. The time between postponing Brexit and the first w%nkspangle posting on Facebook that the Coronavirus is all one big EU plot to keep us in Europe would be best measured in milliseconds.. Oh well, at least they won't be marching together in the streets to bitch about it!


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## Wolf (Mar 19, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I litterally think everything needs a pin in it right now

Football season
Brexit
School years

Pin the lot

Deal with what happens after this

Focus on getting people paid etc so they don't lose their home be that rent or not

But the other stuff.. really doesn't matter right now
		
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Exactly right. These and the health of the nation are the only things of relevance.


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## drdel (Mar 19, 2020)

Wolf said:



*Is Brexit really important right now in the grand scheme of things..* Imo No its not, we need to focus on the country coming together to support the vulnerable and get through a very testing time as one nation, then and only then should we pursue the other elephant in the room. Obviously some will disagree with me on that but its just my opinion that what we're currently facing takes the focus. As for the morons and comments re Barnier contracting it that just shows what scum some people are.
		
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Its just as important as it was before the pandemic. We will all need jobs and businesses to function once on the 'other side'.  We can't just fight the crocodiles nearest the canoe !!


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## Wolf (Mar 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Whilst I 100% agree. The time between postponing Brexit and the first w%nkspangle posting on Facebook that the Coronavirus is all one big EU plot to keep us in Europe would be best measured in milliseconds.. Oh well, at least they won't be marching together in the streets to bitch about it!
		
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Sadly the world is full of moronic fun sponges that love a good conspiracy theory and those dickheads will open the floodgates once this is over as Tory or Euro government biological warfare weapon used to cripple economic stability in order to stop brexit. Also sadly there's gonna be many a muppet that believes it because it was said in twitter or Facebook 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## robinthehood (Mar 19, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Exactly right. These and the health of the nation are the only things of relevance.
		
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Hmmm noble sentiments,  but it's still a big deal and isn't going away ......


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## Wolf (Mar 19, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Hmmm noble sentiments,  but it's still a big deal and isn't going away ......
		
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drdel said:



			Its just as important as it was before the pandemic. We will all need jobs and businesses to function once on the 'other side'.  We can't just fight the crocodiles nearest the canoe !!
		
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To answer both replies in one go. Never said it was going away , i merely am of the opinion this current crisis the government is addressing is a greater priority. They cannot address business functions or jobs until the Corona virus threat to jobs is addressed first regardless of brexit. Just my opinion of course.


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## drdel (Mar 19, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Hmmm noble sentiments,  but it's still a big deal and isn't going away ......
		
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Yup. The UK is spending as necessary (rightly) to protect peoples' health but we need to protect the UK's wealth and future because, inevitably, the debts will need to be settled.


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## bluewolf (Mar 19, 2020)

drdel said:



			Yup. The UK is spending as necessary (rightly) to protect peoples' health but we need to protect the UK's wealth and future because, inevitably, the debts will need to be settled.
		
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But do we need to progress with both at the same time? Or, could we postpone Brexit for 12 months whilst we deal with the current Pandemic, then restart the negotiations when we're out of the worst of it?


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 19, 2020)

I'd expect in reality it's going to be postponed for a few months as I can't see there will be time for the government and civil service to deal with Corona and Brexit at the same time.  As whilst a lot of massive decisions to our way of life are (finally) being made very quickly by the government which is great, there is an absolute shed load of work needed to implement them all to prevent society and the economy going properly tits up.  Same in the EU as I can't see them having much appetite to spend any time on negotiations with whats happening in some of their countries.


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## drdel (Mar 19, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			But do we need to progress with both at the same time? Or, could we postpone Brexit for 12 months whilst we deal with the current Pandemic, then restart the negotiations when we're out of the worst of it?
		
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Over reaction. It is not the time for 'headless chicken' behaviour. Government, HoC and respective Departments have the capacity to run the country.


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## ColchesterFC (Mar 19, 2020)

Wolf said:



			Sadly the world is full of moronic fun sponges that love a good conspiracy theory and those dickheads will open the floodgates once this is over* as Tory or Euro government biological warfare weapon used to cripple economic stability in order to stop brexit.*

Click to expand...

Whereas everyone really knows the truth. It's a conspiracy between Greta Thunberg and Battersea Dogs Home. I seen the advice that as part of staying healthy while you're working from home you have to take the dog for a walk in the morning. I don't have a dog so now I'm going to have to go and get one. And obviously Greta has been banging on about the need to reduce air travel and pollution and hey presto, she releases a virus which grounds almost all flights and drastically reduces pollution due to industry stopping/slowing down. 

Right I'm off to put my tinfoil hat back on.


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## bluewolf (Mar 19, 2020)

drdel said:



			Over reaction. It is not the time for 'headless chicken' behaviour. Government, HoC and respective Departments have the capacity to run the country.
		
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I wish I shared your optimism. Hopefully, it's not misplaced.


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## Hacker Khan (Mar 19, 2020)

Also I really can't see the government wanting another potential major economic shock happening soon.  I am sure the world will calm down in a few weeks/months and the infection rates will be stabilized and it will become manageable, but until a vaccine is found the current thinking is that globally we will still need some pretty severe containment measures in place to stop it blowing up again. So I can't see the economy recovering that much, plus chuff knows how much we will end up borrowing to get us through this.  So are they really going to risk another massive impact on our economy this year?


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## Mudball (Mar 19, 2020)

In a perverse way, this virus is uniting everyone.  This week while wfh, i have spoken to my neigbhours, offered to get their groceries and have everyone's contact detail on a whatsapp group.    Brexit hasnt even figured in our conversation.  In contrast the Christmas party on the street was all about overthrowing those EU fellos or will i go to Alicante again.   now people are more likely worried about their distant cousin or friend in Italy/spain/ireland etc.


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## Mudball (Mar 30, 2020)

Sometimes Twitter throws up some nuggets.... of course this will be seen as the Remainers having another moan... but having seen Gove evading questions, this makes sense 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1244342129477988352


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## harpo_72 (Mar 30, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Also I really can't see the government wanting another potential major economic shock happening soon.  I am sure the world will calm down in a few weeks/months and the infection rates will be stabilized and it will become manageable, but until a vaccine is found the current thinking is that globally we will still need some pretty severe containment measures in place to stop it blowing up again. So I can't see the economy recovering that much, plus chuff knows how much we will end up borrowing to get us through this.  So are they really going to risk another massive impact on our economy this year?
		
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It’s not really about the economy.. you or me it’s about big money. They traded before it hit the fan, they then got the journos to make wide spread panic .. forcing the markets down and allowing them to pop in some of their gains back in.
They now have a substantial nest egg for Brexit and have created a bigger gap to the haves and have nots .. 
Such a conspiracy theory I know but the timings have been delayed to allow all of them to profit. Why did the stock exchange carry on trading when it was evident that all values would drop with extended trading ? Why did it not self isolate to maintain value ? In the grand scheme of things the stock exchange has a minimal impact to common folk ..they are just victims of its fluctuations it’s actual existence is about making a select few rich. So if it stopped would the supermarkets be empty? No. Would existing stock prices be impacted no, you would still be getting your payouts but the fluctuation would be minimal after a brief period of non trading.. so isolating for a week or when it hits a drop rate too great will only be beneficial to the small investors not the greedy ones.
I think we have learnt that turning stuff off doesn’t stop the world turning, the greedy lose money, and the environment improves. 
The greedy do become more evident in our society, some are hiding behind social empathy and others have well and truly broken cover.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 30, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I wish I shared your optimism. Hopefully, it's not misplaced.
		
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Be positive, the political meddling will be minimalised if all the party leads get ill .. remember power corrupts and the evidence from the Brexit debacle is they are all in this for themselves.


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## Mudball (Mar 30, 2020)

I wonder what Farage is making of all this.. Surely this was spread by EU migrants and seasonal fruit pickers.  Now the NHS has lost a lot of European staff, there is a bit of egg on his face.  But  I am sure all these dont matter to him?  

Also where is Priti...  She was running around torching all the 'low-skilled, ''low-paid' carers.  Surely now is the time we need more carers..


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## harpo_72 (Mar 30, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I wonder what Farage is making of all this.. Surely this was spread by EU migrants and seasonal fruit pickers.  Now the NHS has lost a lot of European staff, there is a bit of egg on his face.  But  I am sure all these dont matter to him? 

Also where is Priti...  She was running around torching all the 'low-skilled, ''low-paid' carers.  Surely now is the time we need more carers..
		
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Priti is in isolation hoping we all forget she is a bully ... like Mogg only he has used his time to count his money, although his son has asked that he doesn’t have to stand in front of him the next time they go out in public.


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## Kellfire (Mar 30, 2020)

It’s interesting how for brexit the government pressed on, ignoring the majority of experts and calling it fear mongering. 

Now with Covid-19 it’s that we should trust the majority of experts...


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## Mudball (Mar 30, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Priti is in isolation hoping we all forget she is a bully ... like Mogg only he has used his time to count his money, although his son has asked that he doesn’t have to stand in front of him the next time they go out in public.
		
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Just for comedy value, we should get Mogg to do a daily briefing.  Gove was omnishambles... I am assuming Mogg will be comedy gold.    he would run out of the building because common sense says we should leave when the experts are asking him to stay..

on a more sobre note..   DomCom is in isolation due to Covid Symptoms.     So the big question is, who is running the country?


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## MegaSteve (Mar 30, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Just for comedy value, we should get Mogg to do a daily briefing.  Gove was omnishambles... I am assuming Mogg will be comedy gold.    he would run out of the building because common sense says we should leave when the experts are asking him to stay..

on a more sobre note..   DomCom is in isolation due to Covid Symptoms.     So the big question is, who is running the country?
		
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Raab by all accounts...


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## Mudball (Mar 30, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Raab by all accounts...
		
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is he still around?  Did he not get fired/resigned on principles?


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## MegaSteve (Mar 30, 2020)

Mudball said:



			is he still around?  Did he not get fired/resigned on principles?
		
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Passing on what was advised, last week, in the Boris has got it thread...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 30, 2020)

Mudball said:



			I wonder what Farage is making of all this.. Surely this was spread by EU migrants and seasonal fruit pickers.  Now the NHS has lost a lot of European staff, there is a bit of egg on his face.  But  I am sure all these dont matter to him?

Also where is Priti...  She was running around torching all the 'low-skilled, ''low-paid' carers.  Surely now is the time we need more carers..
		
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Well you can listen to Farage this and Tues-Thursday evening at 6pm on LBC.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 30, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			Raab by all accounts...
		
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We get the Joy of Raab on this afternoon's briefing - coming shortly on a channel near you.  I can't wait...


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## Blue in Munich (Mar 30, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			It’s not really about the economy.. you or me it’s about big money. They traded before it hit the fan, they then got the journos to make wide spread panic .. forcing the markets down and allowing them to pop in some of their gains back in.
They now have a substantial nest egg for Brexit and have created a bigger gap to the haves and have nots ..
Such a conspiracy theory I know but the timings have been delayed to allow all of them to profit. Why did the stock exchange carry on trading when it was evident that all values would drop with extended trading ? Why did it not self isolate to maintain value ? *In the grand scheme of things the stock exchange has a minimal impact to common folk ..they are just victims of its fluctuations it’s actual existence is about making a select few rich.* So if it stopped would the supermarkets be empty? No. Would existing stock prices be impacted no, you would still be getting your payouts but the fluctuation would be minimal after a brief period of non trading.. so isolating for a week or when it hits a drop rate too great will only be beneficial to the small investors not the greedy ones.
I think we have learnt that turning stuff off doesn’t stop the world turning, the greedy lose money, and the environment improves.
The greedy do become more evident in our society, some are hiding behind social empathy and others have well and truly broken cover.
		
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Don't underestimate the effect of the stock exchange on the common folk; downsized and had a lump sum, IFA's would often advise a stocks & shares ISA; local authority pensions invest in them.  Those common folk who have worked & saved to provide for themselves in their retirement and have followed financial advice have potentially taken an almighty kick in the gonads.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 30, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Don't underestimate the effect of the stock exchange on the common folk; downsized and had a lump sum, IFA's would often advise a stocks & shares ISA; local authority pensions invest in them.  Those common folk who have worked & saved to provide for themselves in their retirement and have followed financial advice have potentially taken an almighty kick in the gonads.
		
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Yes that is true they have paid the price .. collateral damage. Seen purely as bit players by those with huge sums of money. If the stock exchange had been frozen those people would not have suffered.


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## oxymoron (Mar 31, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Whilst I 100% agree. The time between *postponing Brexit* and the first w%nkspangle posting on Facebook that the Coronavirus is all one big EU plot to keep us in Europe would be best measured in milliseconds.. Oh well, at least they won't be marching together in the streets to bitch about it!
		
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Dont want to appear to be pedantic asking but have we not already left the EU ? I just thought we were now in the post EU negotiation stage ? Or am i reading your post wrong ?
Genuine questions not stirring the pot


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 31, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Just for comedy value, we should get Mogg to do a daily briefing.  Gove was omnishambles... I am assuming Mogg will be comedy gold.    he would run out of the building because common sense says we should leave when the experts are asking him to stay..

on a more sobre note..   DomCom is in isolation due to Covid Symptoms.     So the big question is, who is running the country?
		
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Scottish Westminster Minister Alistair Jack also has it, that must be a fair chunk of the cabinet now. [or are they all taking turns at having a wee rest]
Jack, being a man of the people, decided to ignore his Government's advice and travel up from London to Dumfries to share his Covid 19 with his constituents [despite having a property in London.


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## USER1999 (Mar 31, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scottish Westminster Minister Alistair Jack also has it, that must be a fair chunk of the cabinet now. [or are they all taking turns at having a wee rest]
Jack, being a man of the people, decided to ignore his Government's advice and travel up from London to Dumfries to share his Covid 19 with his constituents [despite having a property in London.
		
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Does it not depend where his primary residence is?


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## Foxholer (Mar 31, 2020)

oxymoron said:



			Dont want to appear to be pedantic asking but have we not already left the EU ? I just thought we were now in the post EU negotiation stage ? Or am i reading your post wrong ?
Genuine questions not stirring the pot
		
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Yes we have left - did so on Jan 31 at 23:00!

And Yes we are in the 'post Brexit negotiation period'. It's this process that any proposed delay/extension would be abot delay.


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## bluewolf (Mar 31, 2020)

oxymoron said:



			Dont want to appear to be pedantic asking but have we not already left the EU ? I just thought we were now in the post EU negotiation stage ? Or am i reading your post wrong ?
Genuine questions not stirring the pot
		
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Yes, you are correct. However I was referencing the negotiation stage, which could be extended so as to provide more focus on combating the current issues affecting the World.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 31, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Yes, you are correct. However I was referencing the negotiation stage, which could be extended so as to provide more focus on combating the current issues affecting the World. 

Click to expand...

Wouldn’t it be nice if this just brings us a bit closer making the process more amicable.


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## bluewolf (Mar 31, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Wouldn’t it be nice if this just brings us a bit closer making the process more amicable.
		
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I'd have to question the humanity of anyone who went through the current crisis  and didn't want the process to be more amicable.


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## harpo_72 (Mar 31, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I'd have to question the humanity of anyone who went through the current crisis  and didn't want the process to be more amicable.
		
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It should have been amicable without the current issue and yet it degraded.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 31, 2020)

In time the truth will out about why UK did not take up the EU offer to join their Covid-19 procurement programme.  

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...o-buy-covid-19-medical-supplies-say-officials


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## drdel (Mar 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			It’s interesting how for brexit the government pressed on, ignoring the majority of experts and calling it fear mongering.

Now with Covid-19 it’s that we should trust the majority of experts...
		
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Wrong: Brexit was a qualitative policy lead by a referendum decision informed by 'expert' opinion.

Epidemics and contagion are a well researched science backed by medical, mathematical and biological expertise so its primarily quantitative knowledge driving policy.


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## drdel (Mar 31, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Yes we have left - did so on Jan 31 at 23:00!

And Yes we are in the 'post Brexit negotiation period'. It's this process that any proposed delay/extension would be abot delay.
		
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I agree: the UK/EU any future deal can be managed by Government and EU in parallel - it is not sucking up the NHS related resources - extensions will serve no useful purpose as all the EU is concerned with is preventing the UK being successful and contagion leading to the r27 getting itchy feet while charging us and additional bunch of money for the process.


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## Mudball (Mar 31, 2020)

drdel said:



			I agree: the UK/EU any future deal can be managed by Government and EU in parallel - it is not sucking up the NHS related resources - extensions will serve no useful purpose as all the EU is concerned with is preventing the UK being successful and contagion leading to the r27 getting itchy feet while charging us and additional bunch of money for the process.
		
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I am bit surprised someone wants to think about Brexit negotiation at this time.   It is not just the NHS resources but all the ministries and the mandarins are needed for this.   Surely their time is better used to support the NHS that is supporting the whole of the UK rather than a Brexit that was supported by 50%.   

We are all leavers now and I dont care if the rEU (which has its own problems) want us in or out.  I am more concerned around getting enough ventilators on the ground rather than finding (in Gove's words) - we can procure this as an independent country.   That was a bit like Trump's tweet which said that 8m people tuned in to watch the White House briefing and this was more than the last season of Bachelors - WTF. 

In other reports, No 10 says that Negotiations are still on over telephone (really) and Priti 'throw them out' Patel just extended visas for about 3000 NHS staff (ah the irony).


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## drdel (Apr 24, 2020)

Italy is getting pretty vocal about the EU's recent performance and poor debt planning.

I see Barnier is complaining that the UK team is only focusing moving forward on things that matter to the UK and not getting into to other areas such a 'levelling'. He is demanding an extension which will see the UK hit with a large lump payment . Pot calling kettle occurs to me.

He does not mention that if the UK has not completely left by 31st Dec. we could also be expected to share in the EU's liability for its Convid19 rescue debt.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 24, 2020)

Strewth, don't remind us that we have the double economic clanger of CoVid19 and Brexit.
It was going to be tough enough just dealing with one of them.
Ease off the BrirNat pedal for the time being...…….. please.


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## Foxholer (Apr 24, 2020)

drdel said:



			Italy is getting pretty vocal about the EU's recent performance and poor debt planning.

I see Barnier is complaining that the UK team is only focusing moving forward on things that matter to the UK and not getting into to other areas such a 'levelling'. He is demanding an extension which will see the UK hit with a large lump payment . Pot calling kettle occurs to me.

He does not mention that if the UK has not completely left by 31st Dec. we could also be expected to share in the EU's liability for its Convid19 rescue debt.
		
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It's up to UK's negotiators to sort that 'misconception' out! With some stern words on that subject - the actual reason for leaving the EU in the first place - from BoJo and Parliament!

Italy is hardly in a position to criticise anyone (except perhaps Greece!) regarding 'debt planning'!


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## drdel (Apr 24, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Strewth, don't remind us that we have the double economic clanger of CoVid19 and Brexit.
It was going to be tough enough just dealing with one of them.
Ease off the BrirNat pedal for the time being...…….. please.
		
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Reading the thread is not compulsory 

Convid 19 does not mean the world stops. If we want to rebuild our lives and have jobs to go back to rather than just waiting around the negotiations must proceed


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 25, 2020)

drdel said:



			Reading the thread is not compulsory

Convid 19 does not mean the world stops. If we want to rebuild our lives and have jobs to go back to rather than just waiting around the negotiations must proceed
		
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They can certainly proceed - but we can also decide whether or not the current end date remains appropriate and sensible given we don’t know the state our economy and business will be in second half of this year when we have been told we will make a deal/no deal decision in July.

Can you imagine business being told in ten weeks time that have to prepare for a No Deal end December departure?


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They can certainly proceed - but we can also decide whether or not the current end date remains appropriate and sensible given we don’t know the state our economy and business will be in second half of this year when we have been told we will make a deal/no deal decision in July.

Can you imagine business being told in ten weeks time that have to prepare for a No Deal end December departure?
		
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To be honest, business is so disrupted, so up in the air right now, then why not? We are having to readjust everything to deal with the lockdown so better to throw Brexit into the mix now and deal with it together than get through this, level out and then have Brexit again in 18 months.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			To be honest, business is so disrupted, so up in the air right now, then why not? We are having to readjust everything to deal with the lockdown so better to throw Brexit into the mix now and deal with it together than get through this, level out and then have Brexit again in 18 months.
		
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Perhaps - though ‘kicking someone when they are down’ does rather come to mind.  Adding no deal prep into the mix could be what tips some business over the edge.  Whatever. I am sure Johnson will have the best interests of business in mind when he decides one way or the other.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Perhaps - though ‘kicking someone when they are down’ does rather come to mind.  Adding no deal prep into the mix could be what tips some business over the edge.  Whatever. I am sure Johnson will have the best interests of business in mind when he decides one way or the other.
		
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You can look at it both ways. In another analogy, if you are having major work done to your house, is that not also the best time to get it rewired, change the pipes? Deal with all of the disruption in one go rather than spreading it out.

Brexit will hurt my company but it is going to happen so I'd rather it happened and we got it over with as quickly as possible. Don't drag it on like the first part of the process.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You can look at it both ways. In another analogy, if you are having major work done to your house, is that not also the best time to get it rewired, change the pipes? Deal with all of the disruption in one go rather than spreading it out.

Brexit will hurt my company but it is going to happen so I'd rather it happened and we got it over with as quickly as possible. Don't drag it on like the first part of the process.
		
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Sensible thinking but only if you have money in the bank to pay for the work.
If you borrow loads of money that you know you will really struggle to pay back would you not then be in danger of losing the house as you go bankrupt.


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## Hobbit (Apr 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			They can certainly proceed - but we can also decide whether or not the current end date remains appropriate and sensible given we don’t know the state our economy and business will be in second half of this year when we have been told we will make a deal/no deal decision in July.

Can you imagine business being told in ten weeks time that have to prepare for a No Deal end December departure?
		
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Businesses have known for a very long time that there's been a possibility of No Deal. If it comes as a shock to them in 10 weeks time they're pretty shoddy business owners/managers. It could be argued that business owners have time on their hands at present and can direct their staff towards preparation rather than the day-2-day business.

I'd argue for an extension but only for a few months. However, the new EU budget comes in on Jan 1st, with a proposed very large increase. Add to that the UK would also be liable for a proportion of the COVID debt the EU has ran up, even though it hasn't benefited from it. I can see why the UK wants to stick to the Dec 31st deadline, and it certainly seems to focus Barnier's attention... is that a bad thing?

As for continued, unfettered access to fishing rights and level playing field in terms of competition that barnier keeps arguing for, I've not seen one single thing offered in return. At present, I'm inclined to say stuff 'em.


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## drdel (Apr 25, 2020)

Although the virus has caused disruption and suffering sometimes it provides the best opportunity for counter cyclical investment. Callous may be but international economics and business competition are not charities?


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sensible thinking but only if you have money in the bank to pay for the work.
If you borrow loads of money that you know you will really struggle to pay back would you not then be in danger of losing the house as you go bankrupt.

Click to expand...

You can't make decisions or policies taking into account bad decision makers. I'm not sure I get your example as the answer to it is too obvious.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 25, 2020)

drdel said:



			Although the virus has caused disruption and suffering sometimes it provides the best opportunity for counter cyclical investment. Callous may be but international economics and business competition are not charities?
		
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Yes indeed - and in support of your position I might suggest that many, if not the majority (I do not know the figures)  of owners of SMEs voted to leave the EU and so they will reap what they have sown.

I might also suggest though, that they would have sown in the expectation of fair and unexceptional weather between sowing and harvesting. And with the possibility of it being announced in July that we will be leaving on a No Deal basis - with the circumstances for preparing to leave on that basis being very difficult...

Well - they, and the UK as a whole, will indeed reap what we have sown.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 25, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes indeed - and in support of your position I might suggest that many, if not the majority (I do not know the figures)  of owners of SMEs voted to leave the EU and so they will reap what they have sown.

I might also suggest though, that they would have sown in the expectation of fair and unexceptional weather between sowing and harvesting. And with possibility of it being announced in July that we will be leaving on a No Deal basis - with the circumstances for preparing to leave on that basis being very difficult.

Well - as a country we will reap what we have sown.
		
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I'd love to see the basis for your comment about SME's voting in the majority to leave? Every conversation I've had, every chamber of Commerce meeting I've been to suggests the exact opposite. 

Disappointed you keep using the reap what you sow phrasing. The suggestion of it is not pleasant imo. It has undertones to it.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'd love to see the basis for your comment about SME's voting in the majority to leave? Every conversation I've had, every chamber of Commerce meeting I've been to suggests the exact opposite. 

Disappointed you keep using the reap what you sow phrasing. The suggestion of it is not pleasant imo. It has undertones to it.
		
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That's right, I wasn't aware of a SME box on the ballot paper.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I'd love to see the basis for your comment about SME's voting in the majority to leave? Every conversation I've had, every chamber of Commerce meeting I've been to suggests the exact opposite.

Disappointed you keep using the reap what you sow phrasing. The suggestion of it is not pleasant imo. It has undertones to it.
		
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None - and I did say that...I said many if not the majority...and in fact my sympathy is with all SMEs struggling with the idea of prepping for a no deal exit - not just those that did not wish to leave.

So...if the majority of SMEs voted to _remain_ in the EU, should the government not be taking their situation in the current very difficult circumstances into consideration? Or do Johnsons words about business still hold...?


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 25, 2020)

I think you are arguing for a ship that has long sailed, a cause lost. The one thing most businesses want is certainty, not another long drawn out process. Trying to delay leaving just because it suits your view is simply a rehash of all of the arguments of the past 3-4 years. I've no enthusiasm for that, I doubt many others want to go there either.


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## Hobbit (Apr 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think you are arguing for a ship that has long sailed, a cause lost. The one thing most businesses want is certainty, not another long drawn out process. Trying to delay leaving just because it suits your view is simply a rehash of all of the arguments of the past 3-4 years. I've no enthusiasm for that, I doubt many others want to go there either.
		
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I totally agree. The Tories have a massive majority, and an appetite for it. Add that the EU has run up a massive debt, on top of the Quantative Easing debt," for which there's currently only 4 EU countries with anything like an economy that could help service the debt whilst still contributing.

As an aside, a significant number of Expats are moving to Portugal to open their businesses in a sympathetic country, and there's rumours suggesting that people move their money out of Spain for the forceable future. And Italy are making noises. Is being in the EU the right place to be going forward?


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## ferenezejohn (Apr 25, 2020)

Just a pity that when the democratic vote was taken to leave that all parties didn't get round the table to get the best deal for the UK,  some don't know the meaning of democracy.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I totally agree. The Tories have a massive majority, and an appetite for it. Add that the EU has run up a massive debt, on top of the Quantative Easing debt," for which there's currently only 4 EU countries with anything like an economy that could help service the debt whilst still contributing.

As an aside, a significant number of Expats are moving to Portugal to open their businesses in a sympathetic country, and there's rumours suggesting that people move their money out of Spain for the forceable future. And Italy are making noises. Is being in the EU the right place to be going forward?
		
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Has Spain become hostile to Brits or is it just in such a bad place economically?


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## Hobbit (Apr 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Has Spain become hostile to Brits or is it just in such a bad place economically?
		
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I think I’ve experienced it a couple of times but on the whole the Spanish are very friendly. Their BNP does have 60 seats in Parliament.
At present it’s more to do with Portugal opening up to tourism sooner, taxation being a lot better.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I think I’ve experienced it a couple of times but on the whole the Spanish are very friendly. Their BNP does have 60 seats in Parliament.
At present it’s more to do with Portugal opening up to tourism sooner, taxation being a lot better.
		
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Stay in Spain Bri, much nicer language 😁


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## USER1999 (Apr 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Stay in Spain Bri, much nicer language 😁
		
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I love Portugese. It's like a Russian version of Italian.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 25, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			I love Portugese. It's like a Russian version of Italian.
		
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Ha ha. It just sounds harsh to me. Spanish just flows.


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## Hobbit (Apr 25, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			I love Portugese. It's like a Russian version of Italian.
		
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The first time I heard it I thought the people were Russian. Now I can almost follow it. Its not too dissimilar to Spanish.



Lord Tyrion said:



			Ha ha. It just sounds harsh to me. Spanish just flows.
		
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Depends whereabouts in Spain they're from. Northern Spain is very clipped and sharp. Down here its lazy, even leaving words out of sentences. It can make it difficult to follow. And then there's the speed! I listened to the President this evening... well, I listened but only picked up about half.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			The first time I heard it I thought the people were Russian. Now I can almost follow it. Its not too dissimilar to Spanish.



Depends whereabouts in Spain they're from. Northern Spain is very clipped and sharp. Down here its lazy, even leaving words out of sentences. It can make it difficult to follow. And then there's the speed! I listened to the President this evening... well, I listened but only picked up about half.
		
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Spanish and Italian is spoken at 90mph. Well done to anyone who can pick it all up, 50% sounds good enough to me. I'm quite happy just sitting back and hearing it wash over me. I find them very listenable (I may have made that word up 😁)


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## Hobbit (Apr 25, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Spanish and Italian is spoken at 90mph. Well done to anyone who can pick it all up, 50% sounds good enough to me. I'm quite happy just sitting back and hearing it wash over me. I find them very listenable (I may have made that word up 😁)
		
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Italian is easy. I occasionally lapse into it by mistake. German is fairly easy too, although I'm rusty.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 25, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Italian is easy. I occasionally lapse into it by mistake. German is fairly easy too, although I'm rusty.
		
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I learned French at school and although not using it much I do impress myself how much comes back when I'm in France.

I never learned German at School but worked there for very many protracted periods and found it much easier to pick up as so much is similar to English which has its roots as a Germanic language.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think you are arguing for a ship that has long sailed, a cause lost. The one thing most businesses want is certainty, not another long drawn out process. Trying to delay leaving just because it suits your view is simply a rehash of all of the arguments of the past 3-4 years. I've no enthusiasm for that, I doubt many others want to go there either.
		
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Sorry you are mistaken in drawing the conclusion that you have.  It doesn‘t make any difference to me and I have nothing to gain from drawing out the process. I simply ask If it is sensible to make a decision in July for an end December completion of transition - or perhaps better to delay a decision until, say, October and leave on 31st March.


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## bluewolf (Apr 26, 2020)

drdel said:



			He does not mention that if the UK has not completely left by 31st Dec. we could also be expected to share in the EU's liability for its Convid19 rescue debt.
		
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Could we? Really? I’m not 100% sure, but I’d be surprised if we didn’t have to agree to that.......

Wait.... I mean...... Get a professional fitting.... Oh damn! Not even one day!


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry you are mistaken in drawing the conclusion that you have.  It doesn‘t make any difference to me and I have nothing to gain from drawing out the process. I simply ask If it is sensible to make a decision in July for an end December completion of transition - or perhaps better to delay a decision until, say, October and leave on 31st March.
		
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I drew the conclusion based on what you wrote. It may not make a difference to you but you keep flogging that horse 'on behalf of others and so you will get replies accordingly.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I drew the conclusion based on what you wrote. It may not make a difference to you but *you keep flogging that horse* 'on behalf of others and so you will get replies accordingly.
		
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Is there any of that horse left to flog?  It must be flayed to the bone.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 26, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I drew the conclusion based on what you wrote. It may not make a difference to you but you keep flogging that horse 'on behalf of others and so you will get replies accordingly.
		
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Well I might draw the conclusion from what you post that you don’t really care if businesses really struggle to prepare for a No Deal exit end of dec if that’s what our gov calls in July.  But I might be mistaken.

Do we not worry about the impact a second wave of the virus hitting us in October might have on business ability to prepare?  If I were a government risk manager I’d be looking to advise ministers on mitigating the risk to business of such a second wave...


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## drdel (Apr 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well I might draw the conclusion from what you post that you don’t really care if businesses really struggle to prepare for a No Deal exit end of dec if that’s what our gov calls in July.  But I might be mistaken.

Do we not worry about the impact a second wave of the virus hitting us in October might have on business ability to prepare?  If I were a government risk manager I’d be looking to advise ministers on mitigating the risk to business of such a second wave...
		
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Thread theme is the negotiations. The UK law has been past. 

Perhaps we might discuss the state of the EU and Barniers constant failure to treat the UK with the same respect as Canada etc. You have previously stated you accept th e result but keep harping back


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## Hobbit (Apr 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well I might draw the conclusion from what you post that you don’t really care if businesses really struggle to prepare for a No Deal exit end of dec if that’s what our gov calls in July.  But I might be mistaken.

Do we not worry about the impact a second wave of the virus hitting us in October might have on business ability to prepare?  If I were a government risk manager I’d be looking to advise ministers on mitigating the risk to business of such a second wave...
		
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If the predictions are correct, there's 2 years worth of 4-6 waves of virus due. Bearing in mind there may, as you suggest, be less businesses around in a year's time where do you suggest the UK govt gets the money from to pay all the extra EU payments that will fall due?

I favour looking at a short extension but I'm very mindful of the new EU budget due on Jan 1st, the exit payments that are due now(we've already left), and the money the EU will be chasing to support the extra debt it has taken on board due to this crisis.

Gut feel; I don't know the right answer on whether or not the Dec 31st deadline should be cast in stone. But here's a thought that might be relevant; I wonder how many Civil Servants have been taken off their day job because of Covid19, or are there more Civil Servants available for the negotiations?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 26, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			If the predictions are correct, there's 2 years worth of 4-6 waves of virus due. Bearing in mind there may, as you suggest, be less businesses around in a year's time where do you suggest the UK govt gets the money from to pay all the extra EU payments that will fall due?

I favour looking at a short extension but I'm very mindful of the new EU budget due on Jan 1st, the exit payments that are due now(we've already left), and the money the EU will be chasing to support the extra debt it has taken on board due to this crisis.

Gut feel; I don't know the right answer on whether or not the Dec 31st deadline should be cast in stone. But here's a thought that might be relevant; I wonder how many Civil Servants have been taken off their day job because of Covid19, or are there more Civil Servants available for the negotiations?
		
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Just a thought, if there is a sharing of Covid costs in the EU we may be a net recipient.


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## drdel (Apr 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Just a thought, if there is a sharing of Covid costs in the EU we may be a net recipient.
		
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Germany is complaining as it thinks they will be firmly on the hook. I guess that means there would be very little chance the UK would see a penny. Don't forget they are still after the 'settlement'.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 26, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			If the predictions are correct, there's 2 years worth of 4-6 waves of virus due. Bearing in mind there may, as you suggest, be less businesses around in a year's time where do you suggest the UK govt gets the money from to pay all the extra EU payments that will fall due?

I favour looking at a short extension but I'm very mindful of the new EU budget due on Jan 1st, the exit payments that are due now(we've already left), and the money the EU will be chasing to support the extra debt it has taken on board due to this crisis.

Gut feel; I don't know the right answer on whether or not the Dec 31st deadline should be cast in stone. But here's a thought that might be relevant; I wonder how many Civil Servants have been taken off their day job because of Covid19, or are there more Civil Servants available for the negotiations?
		
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I favour a short extension also - that's actually all I am thinking might be useful for business ... I am sure our negotiators can get something agreed with the EU that will not cost the UK (much at all?) as the EU will be keen to get some sort of deal...


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## drdel (Apr 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well I might draw the conclusion from what you post that you don’t really care if businesses really struggle to prepare for a No Deal exit end of dec if that’s what our gov calls in July.  But I might be mistaken.

Do we not worry about the impact a second wave of the virus hitting us in October might have on business ability to prepare?  If I were a government risk manager I’d be looking to advise ministers on mitigating the risk to business of such a second wave...
		
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Business needs certainty which is what the law has provided. Waiting until Oct  or thereabouts before running about like headless chicken would be a disaster. The strategy for the virus will be fairly clear by July but it will still have some uncertainty: life and economics must and will go on.

I am sure there will some details that both parties may wish to ratify after Dec and there is nothing preventing that.


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## DRW (May 20, 2020)

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/886168/Letter_to_Michel_Barnier_19.05.20.pdf


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## bluewolf (May 20, 2020)

DRW said:



https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/886168/Letter_to_Michel_Barnier_19.05.20.pdf

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Depending on your point of view, that's either pointless sabre rattling designed to appeal solely to the UK Public, or a Lion roaring and marking it's territory.. Only one point of view can be majority correct, and there is absolutely zero chance of getting people on this forum to agree on which it is......


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## Hobbit (May 20, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Depending on your point of view, that's either pointless sabre rattling designed to appeal solely to the UK Public, or a Lion roaring and marking it's territory.. Only one point of view can be majority correct, and there is absolutely zero chance of getting people on this forum to agree on which it is......
		
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What is disappointing, if true, is that Barnier said in a briefing a few weeks back that they were still waiting on the legal text detailing the agreement the UK were wanting. Frost and his team immediately issued a copy of the text, saying that it was what the EU had already received. And now there's the letter, which goes over Barnier's head to the heads of state.

I get the feeling the EU is playing hard ball, and a hint of paranoia might suggest their offer is so poor its either punishment or a last gasp push for the UK not go their own way.

What hasn't been mentioned in the thread is the court case the EU are taking out against the UK for previous breaches of rules dating back to Cameron's time. Are the EU that desperate for money they're trying anything and everything.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2020)

I will of course see things through anti-Brexit glasses - even though I know that we ARE leaving - we should be looking to mitigate the risks brought about by the coronavirus

However I get the impression listening to ministers and Tory MPs who were major proponents of Brexit that Brexit is happening in it's own little self-contained world - with thinking impervious to what's actually happening in the world today - with coronavirus and the impact it will have on world trade; the insanity that is Trump; and thoughts on revisiting our future relationship with China...

I hear insistence from some that - no matter what - we will happily walk away from the EU - all 22miles away from us that it is - without a deal to trade on WTO terms with, for instance, no idea of the costs and volumes of air freight in the near future.   It also seems we are not that bothered about the impact on the NHS and our low paid service industries of loss of freedom of movement to and across the EU - especially for the lowest paid unskilled as well as the lower-paid skilled workers our NHS and care sector requires to keep functioning and also the impact on our own youth - yes it works both ways but with employment opportunities for our youth looking to be be at high risk of dropping significantly in the UK then access to the widest employment market is surely desirable.

No - we are leaving end of this year and that is that.  There can be no extension to see what the world looks like in 2021 so we can work out with the EU what would be best for the UK and best for the EU - for at the moment I suspect that neither of us really know.  No - the public spoke and that is that.  What does the public feel today?Well I think that the polls are saying that it wants a delay...or does the will of the people not always matter when it doesn't suit those few.

I wish I could at least hear some recognition, acceptance and admission that the world today is not the same world as that of June 2016.

Yes I know the 'lets get all the bad stuff done now in one fell swoop' and 'well our youth can do the jobs of those EU citizens not coming here'; 'well there won't be jobs across the EU in any case so no big loss there for our youth and more willingly mobile'  

Yes I know.  But I did say I will tend to see things mostly from a certain viewpoint


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## Hobbit (May 20, 2020)

My concern Hugh is the financial bill staying in the EU will bring. The QE the EU ran up in recent years is massive, but the money spent in the last few months is doubly massive. And we know the net receivers in the EU are demanding the net givers pay their C19 bill.

There was an imbalance previously but going forward it would further cripple the U.K. 

Reluctantly, leave, and leave as per the schedule. However, if the EU state that anything spent since Jan 1st will not be added to the current bill, a short extension.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			My concern Hugh is the financial bill staying in the EU will bring. The QE the EU ran up in recent years is massive, but the money spent in the last few months is doubly massive. And we know the net receivers in the EU are demanding the net givers pay their C19 bill.

There was an imbalance previously but going forward it would further cripple the U.K.

Reluctantly, leave, and leave as per the schedule. However, if the EU state that anything spent since Jan 1st will not be added to the current bill, a short extension.
		
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Can't see any sort of extension happening.  We are leaving in any case - that ship has sailed.  Whatever approach minimises further economic damage and maximises the shrunken and further shrinking opportunities for our youth.

I'd just like to think that behind the Great British-Brexit-Bluster I hear that there is some sort of consideration being made of the current circumstances and what next for world trade, before we make things more complex and expensive both to trade with our nearest neighbours, and for the workforce we need to come from the EU.


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## Hobbit (May 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Can't see any sort of extension happening.  We are leaving in any case - that ship has sailed.  Whatever approach minimises further economic damage and maximises the shrunken and further shrinking opportunities for our youth.

I'd just like to think that behind the Great British-Brexit-Bluster I hear that there is some sort of consideration being made of the current circumstances and what next for world trade, before we make things more complex and expensive both to trade with our nearest neighbours, and for the workforce we need to come from the EU.
		
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With an expected rise in unemployment to over 3,000,000 and a vastly smaller world market for a good few years + the debt that the EU has... it couldn't be a better time to leave.


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## USER1999 (May 20, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			With an expected rise in unemployment to over 3,000,000 and a vastly smaller world market for a good few years + the debt that the EU has... it couldn't be a better time to leave.
		
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Yes, but our youth will miss out on the opportunity to be jobless Europeans rather than jobless Brits.


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## SocketRocket (May 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Can't see any sort of extension happening.  We are leaving in any case - that ship has sailed.  Whatever approach minimises further economic damage and maximises the shrunken and further shrinking opportunities for our youth.

I'd just like to think that behind the Great British-Brexit-Bluster I hear that there is some sort of consideration being made of the current circumstances and what next for world trade, before we make things more complex and expensive both to trade with our nearest neighbours, and for the workforce we need to come from the EU.
		
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A little correction to your post.  Weve left the EU already.


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## chrisd (May 20, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			only one point of view can be majority correct, and there is absolutely zero chance of getting people on this forum to agree on which it is......
		
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As it happens, it matter not a jot what forum members agree or disagree on 😀


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## SocketRocket (May 20, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			Depending on your point of view, that's either pointless sabre rattling designed to appeal solely to the UK Public, or a Lion roaring and marking it's territory.. Only one point of view can be majority correct, and there is absolutely zero chance of getting people on this forum to agree on which it is......
		
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I do dislike these war like analogies 😉

Maybe its neither of those excesses, maybe it's the UK trying desperately to get a reasonable settlement that is fair to both parties  on the table.


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## drdel (May 20, 2020)

Germany relies heavily on car sales and other engineering exports, many to eu members via grants. Members arent buying anything, cars sales down by around 90%.

Brussels expects Germany to pick up most of the covid debt, paying with what ones wonders?


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## spongebob59 (May 20, 2020)

chrisd said:



			As it happens, it matter not a jot what forum members agree or disagree on 😀
		
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I'd disagree with you on that 🤣


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## chrisd (May 20, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			I'd disagree with you on that 🤣
		
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I agree that you're right to !I 👍👍


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 20, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			A little correction to your post.  Weve left the EU already.
		
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You are of course correct and I am simply making the point that there is no way back - unfortunately.


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## SocketRocket (May 20, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are of course correct and I am simply making the point that there is no way back - unfortunately.
		
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Will you stop interrupting me while I'm interrupting you!  😉


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## bluewolf (May 21, 2020)

chrisd said:



			As it happens, it matter not a jot what forum members agree or disagree on 😀
		
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I would agree wholeheartedly, but it'd be a cold, damp and lonely forum if that was applied to every thread ;-)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 21, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			I would agree wholeheartedly, but it'd be a cold, damp and lonely forum if that was applied to every thread ;-)
		
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And even although the forum members are a non-representative sample of the electorate and our views will be a bit biased - we are still part of the electorate and politicians listen to the electorate (I think).  I am sure that at least some of us do not keep our views exclusive to the forum


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## bluewolf (May 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am sure that at least some of us do not keep our views exclusive to the forum 

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I do. I can't imagine anything more tedious than having the type of conversations that are regularly held on here in real life!


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## Doon frae Troon (May 24, 2020)

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ire...ing-ferry-launched-from-dublin-port-1.3468760

Ireland prepare for the next stage of Brexit with this big boy.
Bit of a blow to western UK ports


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## spongebob59 (May 27, 2020)

I see that Barnier is offering us an extension so !omg as we stump.up.some cash 😂

_Dear Honourable and Right Honourable Members of Parliament,_

_Thank you for your letter of 15 May 2020. I remain keen on and interested in hearing the views of British political parties and stakeholders in order to appreciate all dimensions of the national debate. _

_The European Union remains determined to build a new and ambitious partnership with the United Kingdom in the short time that is available, given your government’s repeated statements that it will not agree to an extension of the transition period. _

_I take note of your views on a possible extension of the transition period. Such an extension of up to one or two years can be agreed jointly by the two parties. The European Union has always said that we remain open on this matter. Any extension decision has to be taken by the Joint Committee before 1 July, and must be accompanied by an agreement on a financial contribution by the United Kingdom. _

_Regardless of the extension issue, please rest assured that the EU side will continue to do its utmost to reach an ambitious and balanced partnership agreement with the United Kingdom, along the lines agreed with the Government of the United Kingdom in the Political Declaration in October 2019. _

_My team and I remain at your disposal for any further exchanges. _

_Yours sincerely,_


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## drdel (May 27, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			I see that Barnier is offering us an extension so !omg as we stump.up.some cash 😂

_Dear Honourable and Right Honourable Members of Parliament,_

_Thank you for your letter of 15 May 2020. I remain keen on and interested in hearing the views of British political parties and stakeholders in order to appreciate all dimensions of the national debate. _

_The European Union remains determined to build a new and ambitious partnership with the United Kingdom in the short time that is available, given your government’s repeated statements that it will not agree to an extension of the transition period. _

_I take note of your views on a possible extension of the transition period. Such an extension of up to one or two years can be agreed jointly by the two parties. The European Union has always said that we remain open on this matter. Any extension decision has to be taken by the Joint Committee before 1 July, and must be accompanied by an agreement on a financial contribution by the United Kingdom. _

_Regardless of the extension issue, please rest assured that the EU side will continue to do its utmost to reach an ambitious and balanced partnership agreement with the United Kingdom, along the lines agreed with the Government of the United Kingdom in the Political Declaration in October 2019. _

_My team and I remain at your disposal for any further exchanges. _

_Yours sincerely,_

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You failed to mention he only sent it to the Opposition, but did not include Labour (I think).


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## spongebob59 (May 27, 2020)

Well spotted,you're right.
Surprised he didn't copy in Gina Miller and Joleyn Maugham too 😋


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2020)

drdel said:



			You failed to mention he only sent it to the Opposition, but did not include Labour (I think).
		
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I’m guessing it was a reply to those who sent him the letter.  And if Labour weren’t signatories to the letter then they wouldn't have been included in his reply.


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## Doon frae Troon (May 28, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I’m guessing it was a reply to those who sent him the letter.  And if Labour weren’t signatories to the letter then they wouldn't have been included in his reply.
		
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Much to sensible for the usual suspects to understand.


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## Mudball (May 28, 2020)

why cant the EU just let us go... we decided to leave, we go..  Simples.  Dont they understand that we dont want any unelected people rule over us.  We also dont want their cheap care workers or fruit pickers. 
We are leaving and we are taking our ball with us.   Thanks to Covid, we also have experience in handling a failing economy.   <rant over>


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## spongebob59 (May 28, 2020)

They want our cash , pure and simple.


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## bluewolf (May 28, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			They want our cash , pure and simple.
		
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To be fair, I’m fairly certain they wouldn’t want us for our sparkling wit and joyous personalities would they? 

I really don’t see why people complain that Trade Partners want us for our money. What else would they want us for? Next thing people will be complaining about is Tesco and Asda not valuing us as individuals rather than walking wallets 😂


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## drdel (May 28, 2020)

Liberals have put down PMB demanding a 2 year extension: and so the political games return!!


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## chrisd (May 28, 2020)

drdel said:



			Liberals have put down PMB demanding a 2 year extension: and so the political games return!!
		
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But it's not going to be passed is it!


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## bluewolf (May 28, 2020)

chrisd said:



			But it's not going to be passed is it!
		
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Obviously not, so I’m not sure why it’s even news! It’s like when I requested Pizza Tuesdays via the “ideas chest” at work!!!


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## SocketRocket (May 28, 2020)

bluewolf said:



			To be fair, I’m fairly certain they wouldn’t want us for our sparkling wit and joyous personalities would they?
		
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I'm struggling to think of anything witty coming out of the EU except Allo Allo. Wait a minute.....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 3, 2020)

Today

BBC Politics to Nadhim Zahawi - the BBC have learnt from the boss of Nissan UK that the Sunderland plant is still under threat from a No Deal Brexit - is it - Yes or No?
Nadhim Zahawi to BBC Politics - I read what Nissan said about tariffs making Nissan UK uncompetitive - waffle, waffle, waffle - we are going to strain every sinew to make sure there is a deal waffle waffle...

So the answer is.  Nissan are posturing as they prefer no tariffs...but Yes - there remains a risk that leaving without a deal and moving to trade under WTO rules will make Nissan UK uncompetitive and put their UK operation at risk.


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## IanM (Jun 3, 2020)

Gosh, if only the UK Government could choose to alter tariffs on specific industries once free from Brussels??????


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 3, 2020)

The EU want 'us' to pay 'our' share of what we already owe and for stuff we have signed up to.
Bit of a two sided situation I think.

What you suggest would be the same as Scotland to 'just leave' the Union, refusing to pay 'our' share of the massive debt that successive UK Governments has built up.
Somehow I do not think you would be too happy with that.  

Looks like a No Deal scenario will result as that is what the Tories want.
Great  that causes significant harm to both parties.


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## IanM (Jun 3, 2020)

Ah, you answer a response to your point, with reference to a different issue.  Not sure how that leaves it, but it does put me in mind of the Two Ronnies sketch where the Mastermind contestant gives the answer to the  preceding question.


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## chrisd (Jun 3, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The EU want 'us' to pay 'our' share of what we already owe and for stuff we have signed up to.
Bit of a two sided situation I think.

What you suggest would be the same as Scotland to 'just leave' the Union, refusing to pay 'our' share of the massive debt that successive UK Governments has built up.
Somehow I do not think you would be too happy with that. 

Looks like a No Deal scenario will result as that is what the Tories want.
Great  that causes significant harm to both parties.
		
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I disagree, I think the Tories do really want a free trade deal akin to the Canada deal and would sign up to that, the EU want an unattainable agreement - fisheries, level playing field, ECJ etc etc that is no way returning us to a sovereign state. Even the EU their court is now subservient to the German court, and will be so to all the EU members courts, if the Germany case is not quashed. The EU is asking for us to accept amuch worse deal than they agreed with Canada and Japan, we have to walk away with no deal if the EU fail to agree a deal that is in our interests


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## spongebob59 (Jun 3, 2020)

It seems Mr  Stop Brexit is back 😂

Wonder if he's on the EU payroll 🤔


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## IanM (Jun 3, 2020)

Gosh I hope so....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 3, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I disagree, I think the Tories do really want a free trade deal akin to the Canada deal and would sign up to that, the EU want an unattainable agreement - fisheries, level playing field, ECJ etc etc that is no way returning us to a sovereign state. Even the EU their court is now subservient to the German court, and will be so to all the EU members courts, if the Germany case is not quashed. The EU is asking for us to accept amuch worse deal than they agreed with Canada and Japan, we have to walk away with no deal if the EU fail to agree a deal that is in our interests
		
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Could it be because Canada and Japan are more than just a quick hop across 21miles of water - and our trade with both of these countries could be quite different in nature and volume to that between the UK and the EU - possibly could have something to do with EU reticence on it.

In any case, I really I don't think that anyone should be in any way surprised that the EU view the UK in the way that they do in respect of a trade agreement and also in respect of what we signed up to in the political framework.  We have known all along that it was always going to be a risk that we didn't get out of the EU just what we'd want.  

But of course we know that the risk of that happening and of us not getting the free trade deal with the EU that we want is low as the EU need us more than we need them, so all will be good.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 3, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			It seems *Mr  Stop Brexit is back* 😂

Wonder if he's on the EU payroll 🤔
		
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My God tends to not get directly involved in that sort of thing - however - please God - let Mr Stop Brexit realise that his job is done.  He failed.


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## chrisd (Jun 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Could it be because Canada and Japan are more than just a quick hop across 21miles of water - and our trade with both of these countries could be quite different in nature and volume to that between the UK and the EU - possibly could have something to do with EU reticence on it.

In any case, I really I don't think that anyone should be in any way surprised that the EU view the UK in the way that they do in respect of a trade agreement and also in respect of what we signed up to in the political framework.  We have known all along that it was always going to be a risk that we didn't get out of the EU just what we'd want. 

But of course we know that the risk of that happening and of us not getting the free trade deal with the EU that we want is low as the EU need us more than we need them, so all will be good.
		
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No Hugh, I dont think proximity is a reason for the EU to treat us in the way that the are appearing to want to do. Are we saying that the EU have adversely affected our trading ability in past years deliberately to make us not as competitive as we could have been, because the reason they dont want to offer a good deal due to proximity is that we apparently will be too competitive for them to cope with ! You couldn't make it up!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 3, 2020)

chrisd said:



			No Hugh, I dont think proximity is a reason for the EU to treat us in the way that the are appearing to want to do. Are we saying that the EU have adversely affected our trading ability in past years deliberately to make us not as competitive as we could have been, because the reason they dont want to offer a good deal due to proximity is that we apparently will be too competitive for them to cope with ! You couldn't make it up!
		
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It's not just the EU who have made stuff up.  And whatever the choice the EU make in respect of UK access to the single market - it is their choice to offer - and the choice that they make will be that which they deem best for the EU and the UK - in that order.  It has to be said that they seem adamant that they will not weaken EU principles around Single Market access.  They may be bluffing of course but they have said this all along.  And they are not the only ones to have made that point.

Meanwhile Zahawi maintains that UK will 'strain every sinew' to get the free trade deal the government wants - though of course they aren't as our negotiators are being told by the government of the constraints they must work within - constraints that the British Public voted for and will demand must be retained.  Because apparently the British Public understand all that stuff and all about free trade.  Apparently.  Bit of a leap that when many seem unable to understand the meaning of simple lockdown and relaxation instructions - either that or a lot of folks feign stupidity


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## chrisd (Jun 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's not just the EU who have made stuff up.  And whatever the choice the EU make in respect of UK access to the single market - it is their choice to offer - and the choice that they make will be that which they deem best for the EU and the UK - in that order.  It has to be said that they seem adamant that they will not weaken EU principles around Single Market access.  They may be bluffing of course but they have said this all along.  And they are not the only ones to have made that point.

Meanwhile Zahawi maintains that UK will 'strain every sinew' to get the free trade deal the government wants - though of course they aren't as our negotiators are being told by the government of the constraints they must work within - constraints that the British Public voted for and will demand must be retained.  Because apparently the British Public understand all that stuff and all about free trade.  Apparently.  Bit of a leap that when many seem unable to understand the meaning of simple lockdown and relaxation instructions - either that or a lot of folks feign stupidity 

Click to expand...

One would think that their offer would be to the benefit of the member states. I dont see that no access to fishing in our waters, tariffs that stop us buying EU members goods over US or Chinese (or others) goods is beneficial  to the member states, we have money to spend on cars  white goods etc etc but why would we pay a tariff rather than but from outside the EU - there is little to be gained by stop the 5th largest economy from buying from you.

You're once again suggesting that we are stupid and I find that quite insulting!


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## drdel (Jun 3, 2020)

chrisd said:



			One would think that their offer would be to the benefit of the member states. I dont see that no access to fishing in our waters, tariffs that stop us buying EU members goods over US or Chinese (or others) goods is beneficial  to the member states, we have money to spend on cars  white goods etc etc but why would we pay a tariff rather than but from outside the EU - there is little to be gained by stop the 5th largest economy from buying from you.

You're once again suggesting that we are stupid and I find that quite insulting!
		
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I'm afraid there is little economic logic in the EU's stance.

Back in 2016 Barnier declared that the UK must not be seen to prosper and he needed to discourage any other members jumping ship.

He is remote from the nations who will be disadvantaged by the stonewall tactics the EU has always used. Stonewalling is about the only safe option for him personally because everything has to be ratified by the 27 but this is almost impossible as the budget planning debacle and their inability to coordinate the EU's response to Covid19 has shown.
The interests of the EU's citizens is, I fear, a long way down in Barnier's priorities.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Could it be because Canada and Japan are more than just a quick hop across 21miles of water - and our trade with both of these countries could be quite different in nature and volume to that between the UK and the EU - possibly could have something to do with EU reticence on it.

In any case, I really I don't think that anyone should be in any way surprised that the EU view the UK in the way that they do in respect of a trade agreement and also in respect of what we signed up to in the political framework.  We have known all along that it was always going to be a risk that we didn't get out of the EU just what we'd want. 

But of course we know that the risk of that happening and of us not getting the free trade deal with the EU that we want is low as the EU need us more than we need them, so all will be good.
		
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that argument about proximity that Barnier plucked from thin air after first giving the option to May of a Canada-style deal a year or more earlier is one of the bigest piles of stinking horse dung that i have ever heard. He is backtracking and sticking obstacles in the way to try and make the UK still subserviant to EU rules and propose things in the deal that no other sovereign nation would agree to. It will never wash. A trade deal between to sovereign nations/entities should have bi-lateral mechanisms for enforcement/ adjudication - not one side using their aparatus to deal wit the other


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## chrisd (Jun 3, 2020)

I think the letter David Frost sent summing up the EU's position said it all


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## PNWokingham (Jun 3, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I think the letter David Frost sent summing up the EU's position said it all
		
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I agree Chris. There is nothing unreasonable in what the UK want (although the Irish border issue will need some good faith). I suspect that fisheries is an area we can move on but all the talk on cherry picking is simply rubbish - we want a trade deal with no or low barriers (there may be on some things) but that is the same for both and we have a £70bn trade defecit so they benefit from this a lot more - and on services, we have a big surplus but, again, it is still a win win as the capital markets support european companies to gain more competetive funding and the same with the enormous derivatives market that is best performed with scale. I am not sure which way things will go but, to me, the UK is serious on leaving with no deal if the rhetoric from the EU on areas that would be unacceptable to other countries is not dialled right back. I hope this does not happen as it is either win-win or lose-lose - and this can be achieved and shown as a victory on both sides if pragmatism make an appearance. With the worls now in a much bigger mess than 6 months ago, you would have thought that it is the ideal time for a dose of logic


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## drdel (Jun 4, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			I agree Chris. There is nothing unreasonable in what the UK want (although the Irish border issue will need some good faith). I suspect that fisheries is an area we can move on but all the talk on cherry picking is simply rubbish - we want a trade deal with no or low barriers (there may be on some things) but that is the same for both and we have a £70bn trade defecit so they benefit from this a lot more - and on services, we have a big surplus but, again, it is still a win win as the capital markets support european companies to gain more competetive funding and the same with the enormous derivatives market that is best performed with scale. I am not sure which way things will go but, to me, the UK is serious on leaving with no deal if the rhetoric from the EU on areas that would be unacceptable to other countries is not dialled right back. I hope this does not happen as it is either win-win or lose-lose - and this can be achieved and shown as a victory on both sides if pragmatism make an appearance. With the worls now in a much bigger mess than 6 months ago, you would have thought that it is the ideal time for a dose of logic
		
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I fear logic in the EU is in short supply. Germany is acting alone in giving Lufthansa support and planning around 200bn stimulus. While fellow member states suffer.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 4, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			I agree Chris. There is nothing unreasonable in what the UK want (although the Irish border issue will need some good faith). I suspect that fisheries is an area we can move on but all the talk on cherry picking is simply rubbish - we want a trade deal with no or low barriers (there may be on some things) but that is the same for both and we have a £70bn trade defecit so they benefit from this a lot more - and on services, we have a big surplus but, again, it is still a win win as the capital markets support european companies to gain more competetive funding and the same with the enormous derivatives market that is best performed with scale. I am not sure which way things will go but, to me, the UK is serious on leaving with no deal if the rhetoric from the EU on areas that would be unacceptable to other countries is not dialled right back. I hope this does not happen as it is either win-win or lose-lose - and this can be achieved and shown as a victory on both sides if pragmatism make an appearance. With the worls now in a much bigger mess than 6 months ago, you would have thought that it is the ideal time for a dose of logic
		
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All very well and good.  But the EU may well simply decide that if the UK is unwilling to play by the rules in respect of what is required for access to the Single Market, then UK does not get access - and that is a decision that the EU will make themselves on the balance of upside and downside to the EU.  They know that trade-off for them just as much as the UK does for ourselves,  and they will decide what is best no matter what we might claim or complain about.

We have known this all along.  Nobody should be expressing any surprise or upset that the EU is taking the stance that it is.

But it will all be just fine as the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU.  Apparently.  I hope the EU understands this.


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## Old Skier (Jun 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			All very well and good.  But the EU may well simply decide that if the UK is unwilling to play by the rules in respect of what is required for access to the Single Market, then UK does not get access - and that is a decision that the EU will make themselves on the balance of upside and downside to the EU.  They know that trade-off for them just as much as the UK does for ourselves,  and they will decide what is best no matter what we might claim or complain about.

We have known this all along.  Nobody should be expressing any surprise or upset that the EU is taking the stance that it is.

But it will all be just fine as the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU.  Apparently.  I hope the EU understands this.
		
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Germany showing its true colours, the rules have changed unfortunately. UK will have to deal one countries economy while the EU has an organisation will have to deal with a lot more, and some were failing before the current crisis.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			All very well and good.  But the EU may well simply decide that if the UK is unwilling to play by the rules in respect of what is required for access to the Single Market, then UK does not get access - and that is a decision that the EU will make themselves on the balance of upside and downside to the EU.  They know that trade-off for them just as much as the UK does for ourselves,  and they will decide what is best no matter what we might claim or complain about.

We have known this all along.  Nobody should be expressing any surprise or upset that the EU is taking the stance that it is.

But it will all be just fine as the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU.  Apparently.  I hope the EU understands this.
		
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for sure the EU will do what they want but it will not be in respect of what we want out of a trade deal and playing by the rules as we will be no different to Canada and Japan or anyone else - the proximity and other nonesence is just that. We are not asking for special privilages and have even said that we are not against tarrifs on certain areas. So this is a falsehood for the ideologicrats (new word) from the EU beauracracy to "punish" the UK and try and protect what is ultimately (in its current form - as Covid will highlight even more) a broken model between free trade and monetary union


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## doublebogey7 (Jun 4, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			for sure the EU will do what they want but it will not be in respect of what we want out of a trade deal and playing by the rules as we will be no different to Canada and Japan or anyone else - the proximity and other nonesence is just that. We are not asking for special privilages and have even said that we are not against tarrifs on certain areas. So this is a falsehood for the ideologicrats (new word) from the EU beauracracy to "punish" the UK and try and protect what is ultimately (in its current form - as Covid will highlight even more) a broken model between free trade and monetary union
		
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I am not sure why you think the EU should be doing what the UK wants,  their responsibility is to the 27 countries of the EU and not one of them be foolish enough to allow a free trade deal similar to Canada to one of its nearest neighbours.   What are the rules you refer to,  if the EU are breaking any rules in the negotiations then we are free to refer them to the WTO.  Do you think the UK would have supported a Canada style deal between the EU and Norway/Switzerland when we were in the EU.  What is happening is what the "remoaners" were telling you all would happen,  only to be assured the "EU needs us more than we need them,  well the chickens are coming home to roost.  As for  Covid, the cheek of it to suggest the EU model is broken the day after the UK had more deaths than the 27 EU countries put together.


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## pendodave (Jun 4, 2020)

Given what we've learnt about the competence of our elected representatives and the infrastructure of government since March, does anyone seriously think that this is going to end well??


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## PNWokingham (Jun 4, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			I am not sure why you think the EU should be doing what the UK wants,  their responsibility is to the 27 countries of the EU and not one of them be foolish enough to allow a free trade deal similar to Canada to one of its nearest neighbours.   What are the rules you refer to,  if the EU are breaking any rules in the negotiations then we are free to refer them to the WTO.  Do you think the UK would have supported a Canada style deal between the EU and Norway/Switzerland when we were in the EU.  What is happening is what the "remoaners" were telling you all would happen,  only to be assured the "EU needs us more than we need them,  well the chickens are coming home to roost.  As for  Covid, the cheek of it to suggest the EU model is broken the day after the UK had more deaths than the 27 EU countries put together.
		
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I did not say the EU should be doing what the UK wants. I said that what we are after is a normal trade deal between two parties, not one where one side brings its institutions to rule over the other. Do you think we should insist that the House of Lords rules over ttrade or aid disputes? Do you think that the EU would like that? Do you think we should insist that the EU take our state aid laws and their own carry no weight? A trade deal has rules of play and bi-lateral mechanisms to deal with disputes - so we need to create these not use one side's existing aparatus. You sound like Barnier quoting proximity as having any issue on the deal - proximity, by the way, is the same for both sides - so why should it be an issue in our favour, not theirs? It is a ridiculous notion, especially given the massive trade advantage that they have. And yes, i think the UK would have been in favour of Canada style deals with Norway and Switzerland as we will no doubt be doing exactly this when we get around to it. And i am not talking about remoaners (which you sound like) predictions - the EU are being beligerant and bullying in their tactics. And you totally missed the point i was making on covid, which was to highlight the broken nature of the EU model in being able to jump to the defences of the weaker nations in this tragic time as bailouts etc are vetoed by the wealthier north. I was not refering to Covid deaths or individual country resoponses, just the ability to deal with it on an EU basis. So wind your neck in on saying "the cheek of it" to me - how dare I!

To repeat again, this is either a win-win, or a lose lose. We now have voted for a clear choice of one off-the-shelf options that the EU said was available - but that was of course before they believed we had the means (a majority in parliament) to go down this route and also before they realised that we are only 22 miles across the Channel and that this would of course be no good for whatever reason they want to drum up


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## SocketRocket (Jun 4, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			I am not sure why you think the EU should be doing what the UK wants,  their responsibility is to the 27 countries of the EU and not one of them be foolish enough to allow a free trade deal similar to Canada to one of its nearest neighbours.   What are the rules you refer to,  if the EU are breaking any rules in the negotiations then we are free to refer them to the WTO.  Do you think the UK would have supported a Canada style deal between the EU and Norway/Switzerland when we were in the EU.  What is happening is what the "remoaners" were telling you all would happen,  only to be assured the "EU needs us more than we need them,  well the chickens are coming home to roost.  As for  Covid, the cheek of it to suggest the EU model is broken the day after the UK had more deaths than the 27 EU countries put together.
		
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Surely it would be better for the EU to have a free trade agreement with one of its major trading countries, the only reason for them not to would be through a position of principle rather than practicality. It must be plain to see that the UK will not accept being constrained by EU desires on level playing field regulations or handing over control of fishing rights in our waters.   If we have to revert to WTO then it will be a shame but to answer your question on accepting free trade agreements with Norway etc,  why not! Why is that different to Canada or Japan, proximity is a very poor arguement to be treated like a country signing a surrender treaty.


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## chrisd (Jun 4, 2020)

pendodave said:



			Given what we've learnt about the competence of our elected representatives and the infrastructure of government since March, does anyone seriously think that this is going to end well??
		
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I believe that it will end satisfactorily.  The EU cant afford to lose our trade as well as fishing rights etc and we would really want a tariff free agreement. When Barnier stops playing silly buggers, and the EU leader step in, as they will, I'm convinced a deal will quickly follow.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 4, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I believe that it will end satisfactorily.  The EU cant afford to lose our trade as well as fishing rights etc and we would really want a tariff free agreement. When Barnier stops playing silly buggers, and the EU leader step in, as they will, I'm convinced a deal will quickly follow.
		
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i hope you are right Chris and i think there is a decent chance but as you say the silly games need to stop as the clock is ticking. The Beaurocrats in Brussels would be much more in favour of being dogmatic and happy to accept no deal, and maybe even Macron could be in this camp, but I hope the pragmatists in Germany, Holland etc stop it going down this route. Both sides should easily be able to claim a victory if common sense prevails


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2020)

Barnier scathing today about UK approach to the negotiations and UK rowing back on agreements UK has signed up to in the withdrawal agreement.  And very little, if any, progress.  Well he would be scathing wouldn't he - he would say that.  Playing games is M Barnier. 

Just as well the EU needs us and our money more than we need the EU.  Some might suggest that we don't actually want an agreement - not I.  Anyway - who knows.

And no matter - Johnson will be heading out shortly to lead in a summit to sort things out and no doubt put Barnier and the EU in their place.  All will be well.

Apparently.


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## Dando (Jun 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Barnier scathing today about UK approach to the negotiations and UK rowing back on agreements UK has signed up to in the withdrawal agreement.  And very little, if any, progress.  Well he would be scathing wouldn't he - he would say that.  Playing games is M Barnier.

Just as well the EU needs us and our money more than we need the EU.  Some might suggest that we don't actually want an agreement - not I.  Anyway - who knows.

And no matter - Johnson will be heading out shortly to lead in a summit to sort things out and no doubt put Barnier and the EU in their place.  All will be well.

Apparently.
		
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BORING!


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## drdel (Jun 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Barnier scathing today about UK approach to the negotiations and UK rowing back on agreements UK has signed up to in the withdrawal agreement.  And very little, if any, progress.  Well he would be scathing wouldn't he - he would say that.  Playing games is M Barnier. 

Just as well the EU needs us and our money more than we need the EU.  Some might suggest that we don't actually want an agreement - not I.  Anyway - who knows.

And no matter - Johnson will be heading out shortly to lead in a summit to sort things out and no doubt put Barnier and the EU in their place.  All will be well.

Apparently.
		
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Wrong, Barnier was referring to the Political Declaration not the WDA. The PD is not binding.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Barnier scathing today about UK approach to the negotiations and UK rowing back on agreements UK has signed up to in the withdrawal agreement.  And very little, if any, progress.  Well he would be scathing wouldn't he - he would say that.  Playing games is M Barnier.

Just as well the EU needs us and our money more than we need the EU.  Some might suggest that we don't actually want an agreement - not I.  Anyway - who knows.

And no matter - Johnson will be heading out shortly to lead in a summit to sort things out and no doubt put Barnier and the EU in their place.  All will be well.

Apparently.
		
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pathetically predictable stuck-in-the-past pining for the EU - and adds nothing. Have you ever made a comment which gave some credit for the perfectly normal things the UK want out of trade deal in the post-EU world. And god forbid you would want us to actually get a decent deal and maybe have some faith in the UK position rather than always focusing on the negatives that are said by the EU and assuming that they are gospel and correct and that everything the UK is asking for is unreasonable. 

Tell us, what position should the UK adopt in the negotiations and what sort of a fair deal do you think the UK should ak for


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 5, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			pathetically predictable stuck-in-the-past pining for the EU - and adds nothing. Have you ever made a comment which gave some credit for the perfectly normal things the UK want out of trade deal in the post-EU world. And god forbid you would want us to actually get a decent deal and maybe have some faith in the UK position rather than always focusing on the negatives that are said by the EU and assuming that they are gospel and correct and that everything the UK is asking for is unreasonable.

Tell us, what position should the UK adopt in the negotiations and what sort of a fair deal do you think the UK should ak for
		
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Perhaps if he keeps ranting Dallas like we'll emerge from our daily showers to find it was all a dream and we're actually still in the EU


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 5, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			pathetically predictable stuck-in-the-past pining for the EU - and adds nothing. Have you ever made a comment which gave some credit for the perfectly normal things the UK want out of trade deal in the post-EU world. And god forbid you would want us to actually get a decent deal and maybe have some faith in the UK position rather than always focusing on the negatives that are said by the EU and assuming that they are gospel and correct and that everything the UK is asking for is unreasonable.

Tell us, what position should the UK adopt in the negotiations and what sort of a fair deal do you think the UK should ak for
		
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Pining for the EU? - utter tosh - unless you have missed that the UK has actually left the EU.

I hear so much bleating that what the UK is requesting is reasonable and normal, nasty EU for not understanding how reasonable the UK request is.   It might be from UK perspective, but if the EU are unwilling to accede to the request *then it doesn't matter a jot *how reasonable and normal the request might seem.  I hope we get the very best free trade deal.   But with the current bunch of utter charlatans led by Mr Empty Jacket Johnson in charge, I do not actually hold out much hope.  I am pleased that you have loads.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Pining for the EU? - utter tosh - unless you have missed that the UK has actually left the EU.

I hear so much bleating that what the UK is requesting is reasonable and normal, nasty EU for not understanding how reasonable the UK request is.   It might be from UK perspective, but if the EU are unwilling to accede to the request *then it doesn't matter a jot *how reasonable and normal the request might seem.  I hope we get the very best free trade deal.   But with the current bunch of utter charlatans led by Mr Empty Jacket Johnson in charge, I do not actually hold out much hope.  I am pleased that you have loads.
		
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So if you clearly think the UK is asking for a totally unreasonable deal, do you think the EU are also asking have a fair proposal for the UK?


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## SocketRocket (Jun 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Pining for the EU? - utter tosh - unless you have missed that the UK has actually left the EU.

I hear so much bleating that what the UK is requesting is reasonable and normal, nasty EU for not understanding how reasonable the UK request is.   It might be from UK perspective, but if the EU are unwilling to accede to the request *then it doesn't matter a jot *how reasonable and normal the request might seem.  I hope we get the very best free trade deal.   But with the current bunch of utter charlatans led by Mr Empty Jacket Johnson in charge, I do not actually hold out much hope.  I am pleased that you have loads.
		
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Is there any need for this 'Empty Jacket', you have used this type of childish insult in many forms now and it does nothing for your intelligence.


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## Hobbit (Jun 6, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Is there any need for this 'Empty Jacket', you have used this type of childish insult in many forms now and it does nothing for your intelligence.
		
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I disagree. It shows his intelligence for exactly what it is.... the smell of holier than thou sarcasm in recent posts is putrid. As someone said to a LibDem MP on his favourite LBC Radio, you need to leave the UK, you add nothing to it other than bile.


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## chrisd (Jun 7, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I disagree. It shows his intelligence for exactly what it is.... the smell of holier than thou sarcasm in recent posts is putrid. As someone said to a LibDem MP on his favourite LBC Radio, you need to leave the UK, you add nothing to it other than bile.
		
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His posting style was pretty much the same on the "distance measuring device" thread some years back so I guess it was inevitable that he would be worse on Brexit, Boris and all things political. I'm simply taking the view that he eventually bought a rangefinder (as far as I understand) and I know that one say we'll see a post acknowledging that he was wrong about Brexit and Boris and maybe even apologising for being rude about us Brexiteers. At least we have a choice whether to read his sarcasm and insults, just think how his work colleagues/golf partners/ family  must suffer 😖😖


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## harpo_72 (Jun 7, 2020)

I am just patiently waiting for the outcome ... no point falling into the tabloid miss direction. For me it is simple, Boris said it would be good for us ... give him the opportunity to deliver what he views as good for us and then discuss or sort yourself out a better option If you don’t think it is good.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 7, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			So if you clearly think the UK is asking for a totally unreasonable deal, do you think the EU are also asking have a fair proposal for the UK?
		
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Still not sure of your view of what the EU are asking for and how we should change our clearly unreasonable demands in order to get a deal?


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## PNWokingham (Jun 7, 2020)

This seems a good summary

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...ont-want-britain-reasonable-want-subservient/


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## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			...*it does nothing for your intelligence*.
		
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chrisd said:



*His posting style*....
		
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Hobbit said:



			...*It shows his intelligence for exactly what it is....*

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Isn't it time you 'Three Amigos' stopped 'attacking the poster' as opposed to 'attacking the argument'? 

Report the post, or put him on Ignore, but please stop me wasting my time reading the personal attack part of your posts!


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## chrisd (Jun 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Isn't it time you 'Three Amigos' stopped 'attacking the poster' as opposed to 'attacking the argument'? 

Report the post, or put him on Ignore, but please stop me wasting my time reading the personal attack part of your posts!
		
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Only if you stop attacking me for attacking him 😂😂


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## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Only if you stop attacking me for attacking him 😂😂
		
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Deal!  We should be Brexit negotiators!


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## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			This seems a good summary

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...ont-want-britain-reasonable-want-subservient/

Click to expand...

From what I could read (it's a 'subscription required' item) it's simply more Telegragh Brexit-reinforcing propaganda. Just as tedious to read as items that want the Brexit vote rerun! Subservience to regulations is not restricted to those sourced from EU bureaucrats!


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## chrisd (Jun 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Deal!  We should be Brexit negotiators! 

Click to expand...

It's not as simple as that, as the agreement is only the equivalent of the trade agreement there is nothing legally binding, and although I'm cutting my nose off to spite my face, I'm only going to do as agreed so long as the rest of the forum is happy to be tied to a level playing field too 👍


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## PNWokingham (Jun 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			From what I could read (it's a 'subscription required' item) it's simply more Telegragh Brexit-reinforcing propaganda. Just as tedious to read as items that want the Brexit vote rerun! Subservience to regulations is not restricted to those sourced from EU bureaucrats!
		
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it is not propaganda and the source is irrelevant - the issue of laws and subservience is key to the negotiations - and the fact that we are proposing tariffs if need be shows we are ready and serious for a deal. It is a well written piece around the discussions. Text below

here were good and honourable arguments for staying in the EU. There are no arguments – none – for extending the transition period.

Some former Remainers – including, to his credit, Keir Starmer – recognise the difference. Although they fought tooth and nail to overturn the referendum result, they grasp that keeping Britain in a long transition, with all the obligations of membership and none of the rights, is a different proposition.

But, of course, politics is a tribal business. The prolonged culture war that followed the referendum has conditioned many Europhiles to demand an extension, not because it would bring benefits, but they hate everything associated with Brexit. The Lib Dem, Green, SNP, Plaid and SDLP leaders have pleaded with the EU to drag things out.

The EU, naturally, has jumped at that suggestion. Michel Barnier floated it again on Friday. From his point of view, keeping Britain as a non-voting member is the best of all worlds. Brussels officials even proposed – as though making a generous concession – that Britain could be excluded from the EU budget during any extension, paying a lump sum instead.

In truth, Britain will never agree to a prolongation, for five good reasons.

First, every Conservative MP was elected on a manifesto that promised, “we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020”.

Second, that commitment was enshrined in statute

Third, the dynamic has shifted since the general election. Theresa May’s desire to remain close to the EU made her the _demandeuse_. But now it is the EU that wants closer alignment, while the UK simply wants a standard trade deal. A no-deal outcome is far closer to Britain’s preferred position than to the EU’s.

Fourth, British negotiators know that the EU’s position will not change with time. What Britain is asking for is a basic, off-the-peg free trade agreement, every element of which has some precedent in the EU’s existing accords with third countries. The EU will either agree to that or it won’t. If it doesn’t agree now, it won’t shift its ground later.

Fifth, the coronavirus closures have overtaken what would otherwise have been the chief costs to Britain of a no-deal outcome. We are no longer worried about queues at Dover. The government knows that the economic recovery will require shock therapy. There will be changes to our taxes, our regulations, our supply lines, our consumer habits. That is the moment to make changes to our trade policy, too.

My sense is that Michel Barnier knows all this. Hence is unwontedly testy language and his attempt to put the ball back into Britain’s court by saying, in effect, “If you want a close trade deal with us, you must pay for it”. This is an odd way to look at trade deals – as though they were bestowed from kindness rather than sought from self-interest.

But, rather than wheedling, the British negotiators, who know that the EU has a structural trade surplus with the UK, simply said: “Fine, then, if a close trade deal comes with strings attached, how about a looser trade deal? If you truly believe that we are somehow trying to get privileged access to your markets while enjoying a competitive advantage, go ahead and raise some tariffs.”

That offer seems to have annoyed Brussels negotiators even more. They don’t want Britain to be reasonable; they want it to be subservient. Throughout the process, their objective has been, not to maximise the prosperity of their citizens, but to retain a measure of suzerainty over a breakaway province. Given what we now see of their attitude, perhaps a deal was never on the cards.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Isn't it time you 'Three Amigos' stopped 'attacking the poster' as opposed to 'attacking the argument'?

Report the post, or put him on Ignore, but please stop me wasting my time reading the personal attack part of your posts!
		
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It is imposible to not attck the poster as he does not offer views just criticisms of the UKs stance, usually glorifying Barnier. There are no specific critiques of the UK's stance just that it is all wrong - i asked for his views on what is wrong with the UK position and if he belives that the EU stance and wishes are fair but so far nothing


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## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			it is not propaganda and the source is irrelevant - the issue of laws and subservience is key to the negotiations - and the fact that we are proposing tariffs if need be shows we are ready and serious for a deal. It is a well written piece around the discussions. Text below

here were good and honourable arguments for staying in the EU. There are no arguments – none – for extending the transition period.

Some former Remainers – including, to his credit, Keir Starmer – recognise the difference. Although they fought tooth and nail to overturn the referendum result, they grasp that keeping Britain in a long transition, with all the obligations of membership and none of the rights, is a different proposition.

But, of course, politics is a tribal business. The prolonged culture war that followed the referendum has conditioned many Europhiles to demand an extension, not because it would bring benefits, but they hate everything associated with Brexit. The Lib Dem, Green, SNP, Plaid and SDLP leaders have pleaded with the EU to drag things out.

The EU, naturally, has jumped at that suggestion. Michel Barnier floated it again on Friday. From his point of view, keeping Britain as a non-voting member is the best of all worlds. Brussels officials even proposed – as though making a generous concession – that Britain could be excluded from the EU budget during any extension, paying a lump sum instead.

In truth, Britain will never agree to a prolongation, for five good reasons.

First, every Conservative MP was elected on a manifesto that promised, “we will not extend the implementation period beyond December 2020”.

Second, that commitment was enshrined in statute

Third, the dynamic has shifted since the general election. Theresa May’s desire to remain close to the EU made her the _demandeuse_. But now it is the EU that wants closer alignment, while the UK simply wants a standard trade deal. A no-deal outcome is far closer to Britain’s preferred position than to the EU’s.

Fourth, British negotiators know that the EU’s position will not change with time. What Britain is asking for is a basic, off-the-peg free trade agreement, every element of which has some precedent in the EU’s existing accords with third countries. The EU will either agree to that or it won’t. If it doesn’t agree now, it won’t shift its ground later.

Fifth, the coronavirus closures have overtaken what would otherwise have been the chief costs to Britain of a no-deal outcome. We are no longer worried about queues at Dover. The government knows that the economic recovery will require shock therapy. There will be changes to our taxes, our regulations, our supply lines, our consumer habits. That is the moment to make changes to our trade policy, too.

My sense is that Michel Barnier knows all this. Hence is unwontedly testy language and his attempt to put the ball back into Britain’s court by saying, in effect, “If you want a close trade deal with us, you must pay for it”. This is an odd way to look at trade deals – as though they were bestowed from kindness rather than sought from self-interest.

But, rather than wheedling, the British negotiators, who know that the EU has a structural trade surplus with the UK, simply said: “Fine, then, if a close trade deal comes with strings attached, how about a looser trade deal? If you truly believe that we are somehow trying to get privileged access to your markets while enjoying a competitive advantage, go ahead and raise some tariffs.”

That offer seems to have annoyed Brussels negotiators even more. They don’t want Britain to be reasonable; they want it to be subservient. Throughout the process, their objective has been, not to maximise the prosperity of their citizens, but to retain a measure of suzerainty over a breakaway province. Given what we now see of their attitude, perhaps a deal was never on the cards.
		
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Thanks for the cut/paste...
Nope! I was right - simply 'reinforcement' propaganda Telegraph style - published as 'opinion'!
Points 1 & 2 (which are the same thing) are all that are necessary!


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## chrisd (Jun 7, 2020)

It looks a well written piece to me PN. I do really think that Barnier is just the "warm up act" though, hes sent with the "silly" deal to see how much we can be conned, bullied or tricked into believing we should be frightened of not accepting their deal but later when the heads of state get together with Boris there will be a realism that we mean what we say, and a satisfactory deal will be thrashed out.


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## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			It is imposible to not attck the poster
		
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Twaddle!


PNWokingham said:



			...as he does not offer views just criticisms of the UKs stance...
		
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Then simply counter his criticisms!


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## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2020)

chrisd said:



			It looks a well written piece to me PN. I do really think that Barnier is just the "warm up act" though, *hes sent with the "silly" deal to see how much we can be conned, bullied or tricked into believing we should be frightened of not accepting their deal* but later when the heads of state get together with Boris there will be a realism that we mean what we say, and a satisfactory deal will be thrashed out.
		
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Seems an excellent definition of 'diplomacy' to me!


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## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2020)

chrisd said:



			It looks a well written piece to me PN. I do really think that Barnier is just the "warm up act" though, hes sent with the "silly" deal to see how much we can be conned, bullied or tricked into believing we should be frightened of not accepting their deal but later *when the heads of state get together with Boris there will be a realism that we mean what we say, and a satisfactory deal* will be thrashed out.
		
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I certainly hope that is the case!
Of course, that would also imply that it's the Heads of States that really are in charge - something rather contra to the 'we are being run by faceless bureaucrats' argument!


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## chrisd (Jun 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I certainly hope that is the case!
Of course, that would also imply that it's the Heads of States that really are in charge - something rather contra to the 'we are being run by faceless bureaucrats' argument!
		
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It would imply that only 2 or 3 heads of state are in charge and eventually they will tell Barnier what deal to do


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## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2020)

chrisd said:



			It would imply that only 2 or 3 heads of state are in charge and eventually they will tell Barnier what deal to do
		
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My point still stands. (Elected) Heads of States are in charge and the (unelected) bureacrats merely run it. Not dissimilar to the way UK is run. That was never an argument that I gave much credence to, though believe it likely swayed many and was certainly a key part of the initial 'rebellion'. To me, the restrictions (elimination!) of UK's trade dealing was a much more important one.


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## drdel (Jun 7, 2020)

chrisd said:



			It would imply that only 2 or 3 heads of state are in charge and eventually they will tell Barnier what deal to do
		
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I wouldn't hold my breath. No matter what the few 'Heads of State' might wish the EU has to put any change through Brussels and put recommendations forward for all 27 to vote. EU decision-making is a long way from a democratic process. They can't agree their budget and they still can't agree their 'emergency' Covid19 funding response.


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## PNWokingham (Jun 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Thanks for the cut/paste...
Nope! I was right - simply 'reinforcement' propaganda Telegraph style - published as 'opinion'!
Points 1 & 2 (which are the same thing) are all that are necessary!
		
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no. you are wrong. Of course there is opinion - amonst a series of facts, or obvious conclusions on the stances of both sides - it has an aouthor! But propoganda - no!  

The first point - a fact. Second - a fact. Third point - clearly obvious. Fourth, an obvious conclusion of UK's assumptions, followed by a fact about what we are asking for that is similar to existing EU trade deals, and a fact that they the EU can agree or not. Wait a minute, it ends on speculation, strike the artistic licence down!!. Fifth -  starts with an obvious fact, followed by an easy assumption, and another one, oh followed by another. Oh and another - and concludes that our trade policy will change - pretty certain that is a fact as well!

So - twadle, no; propoganda, no. A series of facts and logical conclusions short on drama and controversy and rhetoric....yes!


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## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			no. you are wrong. Of course there is opinion - amonst a series of facts, or obvious conclusions on the stances of both sides - it has an aouthor! But propoganda - no!

The first point - a fact. Second - a fact. Third point - clearly obvious. Fourth, an obvious conclusion of UK's assumptions, followed by a fact about what we are asking for that is similar to existing EU trade deals, and a fact that they the EU can agree or not. Wait a minute, it ends on speculation, strike the artistic licence down!!. Fifth -  starts with an obvious fact, followed by an easy assumption, and another one, oh followed by another. Oh and another - and concludes that our trade policy will change - pretty certain that is a fact as well!

So - twadle, no; propoganda, no. A series of facts and logical conclusions short on drama and controversy and rhetoric....yes!
		
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You may believe me to be wrong, something I have no problem with, but please grant me the similar right to have my own belief/opinion. Like ALL National papers there is more than simply reporting the news involved and the Telegraph (aka Torygraph, that I have otherwise refrained describing it) has it's own bias. Newspapers of all styles are progaganda vehicles imo!

As for that particular article... Only the 1st 2 points are truly facts - at least in relation to Brexit. As you state, the rest are 'logical conclusions' (aka simply opinion) which may/may not be(come) correct. The 3rd point is quite interesting - and a reason why a No Deal conclusion is likely not the great problem some fear. I suspect trade deals WILL follow that result. Unfortunately, the 4th point is at odds with ChrisD's and my hopes (posts 383, 386)! I hope that ends netter than the author's view!



PNWokingham said:



			...
That offer seems to have annoyed Brussels negotiators even more. They don’t want Britain to be reasonable; they want it to be subservient. Throughout the process, their objective has been, not to maximise the prosperity of their citizens, but to retain a measure of suzerainty over a breakaway province. Given what we now see of their attitude, perhaps a deal was never on the cards.
		
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I do agree with this view though!


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## chrisd (Jun 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			I wouldn't hold my breath. No matter what the few 'Heads of State' might wish the EU has to put any change through Brussels and put recommendations forward for all 27 to vote. EU decision-making is a long way from a democratic process. They can't agree their budget and they still can't agree their 'emergency' Covid19 funding response.
		
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But would they all want to deny their individual home businesses to risk losing the trade they get from the 5th largest economy, cars from Germany, wine from France and Italy etc etc , especially with the financial implications of coronavirus also impacting on their individual economies?


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## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			I wouldn't hold my breath. No matter what the few 'Heads of State' might wish the EU has to put any change through Brussels and* put recommendations forward for all 27 to vote*. EU decision-making is a long way from a democratic process. They can't agree their budget and they still can't agree their 'emergency' Covid19 funding response.
		
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Er...Doesn't that make it a 'more democratic' process?

I agree though that 'holding my breath' would not be wise!


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## drdel (Jun 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Er...Doesn't that make it a 'more democratic' process?

I agree though that 'holding my breath' would not be wise!
		
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In theory I'd agree but the 27 member states only get to vote on the Brussel selected option.


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## Foxholer (Jun 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			In theory I'd agree but the 27 member states only get to vote on the Brussel selected option.
		
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That's not the way I understand the heirarchy works! The EU Commission (presumably 'Brussels' in your terminology) tables Laws that implement decisions of EU Parliament and the EU Council (the Heads of State group).
https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/institutions-bodies/european-commission_en & https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/institutions-bodies/council-eu_en
So if the EU Council decides to override Barnier's 'No Deal' negotiation with a Trade Deal, then that's what the Commission MUST implement!


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## drdel (Jun 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			That's not the way I understand the heirarchy works! The EU Commission (presumably 'Brussels' in your terminology) tables Laws that implement decisions of EU Parliament and the EU Council (the Heads of State group).
https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/institutions-bodies/european-commission_en & https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/institutions-bodies/council-eu_en
So if the EU Council decides to override Barnier's 'No Deal' negotiation with a Trade Deal, then that's what the Commission MUST implement!
		
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You might want to check on the actual working practices rather than the theory.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Isn't it time you 'Three Amigos' stopped 'attacking the poster' as opposed to 'attacking the argument'?

Report the post, or put him on Ignore, but please stop me wasting my time reading the personal attack part of your posts!
		
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Using this 'Empty Jacket' when referring to Boris is silly and it's something he has been doing in different forms for a long time. I guess I am allowed to tell him that I dont like it.


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## Foxholer (Jun 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			You might want to check on the actual working practices rather than the theory.
		
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Yes (Prime) Minister at the European level then!
It's in the EU Council's remit to align theory and practice - if they wish!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 8, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Using this 'Empty Jacket' when referring to Boris is silly and it's something he has been doing in different forms for a long time. I guess I am allowed to tell him that I dont like it.
		
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It is a term that has strong historical precedence in it's use in Scotland.  It was the nickname used by Scots of the time for King John I (John Balliol) who was pretty useless and ineffective, whose position and finery belied what was underneath - and for many of the time that was not a lot...

Now you know that I didn't simply make it up.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 8, 2020)

Would it not be top drawer irony if Johnson pushes through his desired 'no deal' Brexit on the basis of protecting Scottish fishing rights.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It is a term that has strong historical precedence in it's use in Scotland.  It was the nickname used by Scots of the time for King John I (John Balliol) who was pretty useless and ineffective, whose position and finery belied what was underneath - and for many of the time that was not a lot...

Now you know that I didn't simply make it up.
		
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You should have used the historical Toom Tabard [empty jaiket] that would really have caused a stoosie in the steamy.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 8, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Would it not be top drawer irony if Johnson pushes through his desired 'no deal' Brexit on the basis of protecting Scottish fishing rights.
		
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We have a small number of boats in the town where I work. There is also a shellfish factory 50 metres or so from us that is supplied by fisherman from all over but Scottish boats in particular based on the lorries I see each day. They closed during most of lockdown because the vast majority of what they process goes out to Spain and France. Once the restaurants opened up over there they started over here again. 

Being firm on fishing rights has no worth if most of the catch can not be sold on because the EU give retaliatory tariffs. The govt, the EU etc need to follow the whole chain of supply with this as, as with many products, it is all linked.

I think we have a fisherman on the forum. If our fishing friend can advise, apologies I can not remember who it is, I would be really interested to hear his view on this.


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## Paperboy (Jun 8, 2020)

Rlburnside and Pieman knows a bit at fishing as well.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 8, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You should have used the historical Toom Tabard [empty jaiket] that would really have caused a stoosie in the steamy.

Click to expand...

Indeed - it that supporters of the government and Johnson don't have any issues with Johnson being thought of as somewhat 'Churchillian'....there are 'Balliolian' alternatives 

BTW - you've started 'dropping your H's? As in 'what a stramas...'


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 8, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Would it not be top drawer irony if Johnson pushes through his desired 'no deal' Brexit on the basis of protecting Scottish fishing rights.
		
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_'Scotland accounts for most of the fish caught in the United Kingdom, which is the second-biggest provider of fish from the EU after Spain....Britain exports 75 percent of the fish it catches, and 75 percent of that goes to the EU'_

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...s-without-brexit-deal-fishermen-idUSKCN1PP2AF

Rather suggests that for UK fishing, Johnson and Frost better negotiate a decent free trade deal .


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## drdel (Jun 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



_'Scotland accounts for most of the fish caught in the United Kingdom, which is the second-biggest provider of fish from the EU after Spain....Britain exports 75 percent of the fish it catches, and 75 percent of that goes to the EU'_

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...s-without-brexit-deal-fishermen-idUSKCN1PP2AF

Rather suggests that for UK fishing, Johnson and Frost better negotiate a decent free trade deal .
		
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If European consumers want UK caught fish then they can buy them at the market rate. The UK may not put a tariff in place. 

The world of business will not stop.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			If European consumers want UK caught fish then they can buy them at the market rate. The UK may not put a tariff in place.

The world of business will not stop.
		
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If the EU puts a high enough tariff on them then the European consumer may no longer want them or may want them but choose a cheaper, caught closer to home option.

I totally agree with your last comment but price matters.


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## drdel (Jun 8, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			If the EU puts a high enough tariff on them then the European consumer may no longer want them or may want them but choose a cheaper, caught closer to home option.

I totally agree with your last comment but price matters.
		
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Yup, but according to the EU there are not enough fish in their waters and that's why they want to keep access.


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## Foxholer (Jun 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			Yup, but according to the EU there are not enough fish in their waters and that's why they want to keep access.
		
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Perhaps that should be 'no longer enough fish in their waters'!
And fishing rights are certainly one of the areas where UK holds the better cards! It needs to use that advantage wisely!


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## Hobbit (Jun 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



_'Scotland accounts for most of the fish caught in the United Kingdom, which is the second-biggest provider of fish from the EU after Spain....Britain exports 75 percent of the fish it catches, and 75 percent of that goes to the EU'_

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...s-without-brexit-deal-fishermen-idUSKCN1PP2AF

Rather suggests that for UK fishing, Johnson and Frost better negotiate a decent free trade deal .
		
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Maybe you're playing with numbers, or maybe you don't know what you're talking about. For instance, the French quota of cod in UK waters equates to 86% of all cod. That isn't because they are better fishermen, its because that's THEIR quota. The UK's quota is 9% of all cod AND 75% of 9% is sod all. The UK fishermen would love access to a greater quota, like all of it, and as a result of that imbalance many UK fleets have actually sold their boats to foreign fishing fleets.

There were rumours coming out of Brussels a few weeks back that elements of a deal were close but then the French, Macron, kicked it into touch because he wasn't happy at the loss of fishing grounds that the French enjoy.


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## drdel (Jun 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps that should be 'no longer enough fish in their waters'!
And fishing rights are certainly one of the areas where UK holds the better cards! It needs to use that advantage wisely!
		
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I said exactly what I wanted in the way I wanted. I do not need your  correction. Leave out the arrogance.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 8, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Maybe you're playing with numbers, or maybe you don't know what you're talking about. For instance, the French quota of cod in UK waters equates to 86% of all cod. That isn't because they are better fishermen, its because that's THEIR quota. The UK's quota is 9% of all cod AND 75% of 9% is sod all. The UK fishermen would love access to a greater quota, like all of it, and as a result of that imbalance many UK fleets have actually sold their boats to foreign fishing fleets.

There were rumours coming out of Brussels a few weeks back that elements of a deal were close but then the French, Macron, kicked it into touch because he wasn't happy at the loss of fishing grounds that the French enjoy.
		
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I simply quoted the Reuters article, and on the basis of that hope for a good trade deal with no or minimal tariffs on fish and seafood.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



_'Scotland accounts for most of the fish caught in the United Kingdom, which is the second-biggest provider of fish from the EU after Spain....Britain exports 75 percent of the fish it catches, and 75 percent of that goes to the EU'_

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...s-without-brexit-deal-fishermen-idUSKCN1PP2AF

Rather suggests that for UK fishing, Johnson and Frost better negotiate a decent free trade deal .
		
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Toom Tabard has been used quite a lot recently in the Scottish press and media to describe a UK political leader, I shall let you guess who.


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## Foxholer (Jun 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			I said exactly what I wanted in the way I wanted. I do not need your  correction. Leave out the arrogance.
		
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It wasn't a correction! No 'arrogance' involved (on my part at least)!
Think a bit deeper! Specifically about how that ('no longer') might have occurred!


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## PNWokingham (Jun 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



_'Scotland accounts for most of the fish caught in the United Kingdom, which is the second-biggest provider of fish from the EU after Spain....Britain exports 75 percent of the fish it catches, and 75 percent of that goes to the EU'_

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-...s-without-brexit-deal-fishermen-idUSKCN1PP2AF

Rather suggests that for UK fishing, Johnson and Frost better negotiate a decent free trade deal .
		
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and where do you think a large amount of german cars go and the rest of the multitude varying products from all over the EU that make up their 70bn ssuplus - on your logic and the same logic to everyone, rather suggests that Barnier negotiate a good free tarde deal as welll!!

UK fishing is an area that we will cede some grounds on but that has to be done while keeping control - and they need to do the same on equivalence issues for services - as both issues can resulyt in win-win outcomes


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## PNWokingham (Jun 8, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Would it not be top drawer irony if Johnson pushes through his desired 'no deal' Brexit on the basis of protecting Scottish fishing rights.
		
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You are utterly blinkered if you think Johnson wants a no deal. Eevyone wants a deal but the deal has to be acceptable not one a being subservient to EU rules and laws

And, i think you will find that Johnson talks in the context of UK fishing rights - being as we are still a United Kingdon to the dismay of some!


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## Hobbit (Jun 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I simply quoted the Reuters article, and on the basis of that hope for a good trade deal with no or minimal tariffs on fish and seafood.
		
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Are yes, your usual hiding behind "someone else said."

We lost Hugh. Remain didn't win. We don't want to go but we have to. Instead of every, every, every single time taking a pop at the UK stance, as unpalatable as it might be, we need to support the UK getting the best deal they can, even if its along political lines we're not comfortable with. We don't have to like it, and we most certainly won't change it one jot. But if we continue to take extreme lines against a political majority, led by an even more extreme Head, we only create strife at a local level.

I've read the PD, and what the EU is asking for. They're not exactly being genuine in their interpretation, nor are they respecting a sovereign state. If the EU get the deal they want, leaving is 100% pointless. Its actually more than that, its makes the UK more subservient than Norway. If the EU are griping about it, it means its a good deal for the UK. Don't you want a good deal for the UK?

Do yourself a favour, have a read up on the battles between the EU and Switzerland. If you're not against that level of interference I would genuinely feel you don't have any interest in the UK getting a good deal.


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## Foxholer (Jun 8, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			...the French quota of cod in UK waters equates to 86% of all cod... The UK's quota is 9% of all cod...
		
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Got a link to a list of those quotas?


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 9, 2020)

Was just speaking to a colleague in Germany and fully appreciate that he in no way speaks for the whole of Germany or indeed Europe.  But he said the mood is changing in the press over there to telling us to go and do one and leave without a deal if we start coming back with what they see as unreasonable demands (of course what is reasonable to one person will not be to another but there you go).  He said they have much bigger issues to worry about now with getting economies back on their feet, and the mood is changing to 'calling our bluff'. And if we threaten to leave with no deal then they will let us do that a lot easily then they would have before the Covid stuff all kicked off.  As they do not want to spend any more time on Brexit than the really have to.

Also interestingly he said Germany also has the same issues as us with regards to increasing numbers of people mostly ignoring the Covid restrictions and guidance now.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 9, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Also interestingly he said Germany also has the same issues as us with regards to increasing numbers of people mostly ignoring the Covid restrictions and guidance now.
		
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We have been dealing with our distributors across Europe throughout all of this, even those in the worst hit countries. They have all said the same thing, no exceptions. They had the same complaints at the beginning as well. We are not that different, the press and social media just like to think we are the worst, most badly behaved etc.


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## chrisd (Jun 9, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Was just speaking to a colleague in Germany and fully appreciate that he in no way speaks for the whole of Germany or indeed Europe.  But he said the mood is changing in the press over there to telling us to go and do one and leave without a deal if we start coming back with what they see as unreasonable demands (of course what is reasonable to one person will not be to another but there you go).  He said they have much bigger issues to worry about now with getting economies back on their feet, and the mood is changing to 'calling our bluff'. And if we threaten to leave with no deal then they will let us do that a lot easily then they would have before the Covid stuff all kicked off.  As they do not want to spend any more time on Brexit than the really have to.

Also interestingly he said Germany also has the same issues as us with regards to increasing numbers of people mostly ignoring the Covid restrictions and guidance now.
		
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I dont doubt the validity of your post or the source it came from but I struggle with understanding how putting tariffs on German made goods being sold to the UK, after the end of the year, is in any way going to help them get their economy "back on its feet". I've owned a few German cars but would not pay 10% more for the privilege of buying one in January 2021 than I'd pay in December 2020. Even a blind man can see that the EU negotiators are trying to stitch us up!


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## DRW (Jun 9, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Was just speaking to a colleague in Germany and fully appreciate that he in no way speaks for the whole of Germany or indeed Europe.  But he said the mood is changing in the press over there to telling us to go and do one and leave without a deal if we start coming back with what they see as unreasonable demands (of course what is reasonable to one person will not be to another but there you go).  He said they have much bigger issues to worry about now with getting economies back on their feet, and the mood is changing to 'calling our bluff'. And if we threaten to leave with no deal then they will let us do that a lot easily then they would have before the Covid stuff all kicked off.  As they do not want to spend any more time on Brexit than the really have to.

Also interestingly he said Germany also has the same issues as us with regards to increasing numbers of people mostly ignoring the Covid restrictions and guidance now.
		
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Fairly naïve way of thinking about things, brexit on WTO pus virus issues, only makes things worse. There is plenty of time and resources available to deal with both.

Hopefully the people negotiating have more sensible heads on.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 9, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Toom Tabard has been used quite a lot recently in the Scottish press and media to describe a UK political leader, I shall let you guess who.

Click to expand...

I cannot guess - and indeed I did not and do not know.  

Fortunately for Scotland, Balliol was followed by Wallace and Bruce (amongst others) as guardians, and then in 1306 by King Robert I.  So we learn from history that even in dark and leaderless times there is always hope...


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## spongebob59 (Jun 12, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271502863915761671


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## User62651 (Jun 12, 2020)

Just seems to be another Mexican standoff between UK Govt and EU, see who blinks first. By definitively saying the UK will not extend the transition deadline Gove thinks that will force the EU's hand to give us an FTA double quick, meantime EU are still saying UK can extend the deadline even though we've now said we won't, they are probably thinking Johnson will weaken as the no deadline approaches and back down -  not a great position for either side, bluffs and double bluffs, seen this over and over.
So clear that the UK Tory Govt has next to zero respect for any devolved administration, understand that - they were set up by Labour after all, so we get unconstructive point scoring and shenanigans (from all sides), devolution just doesn't really work unless the same parties are in power, hasn't been like that since 2008 for Scotland and 2010 for Wales......... and it shows. 
Brexit remains as polarising as ever, politics always feels utterly frustrating, always negative.
Division and more division. 
On top of the covid catastrophe.........plain Yuk.

Sorry for the moan, fed up.


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## Foxholer (Jun 12, 2020)

Much as I detest Gove, I believe his action is pretty reasonable! UK IS leaving the EU! The sooner all parties recognise this and develop a proper 'future relationship' the better imo!


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## Hobbit (Jun 12, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Just seems to be another Mexican standoff between UK Govt and EU, see who blinks first. By definitively saying the UK will not extend the transition deadline Gove thinks that will force the EU's hand to give us an FTA double quick, meantime EU are still saying UK can extend the deadline even though we've now said we won't, they are probably thinking Johnson will weaken as the no deadline approaches and back down -  not a great position for either side, bluffs and double bluffs, seen this over and over.
So clear that the UK Tory Govt has next to zero respect for any devolved administration, understand that - they were set up by Labour after all, so we get unconstructive point scoring and shenanigans (from all sides), devolution just doesn't really work unless the same parties are in power, hasn't been like that since 2008 for Scotland and 2010 for Wales......... and it shows.
Brexit remains as polarising as ever, politics always feels utterly frustrating, always negative.
Division and more division.
On top of the covid catastrophe.........plain Yuk.

Sorry for the moan, fed up.
		
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Do the devolved powers include foreign policy?


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## spongebob59 (Jun 12, 2020)

No extension 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271537138899845120


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## SocketRocket (Jun 12, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Just seems to be another Mexican standoff between UK Govt and EU, see who blinks first. By definitively saying the UK will not extend the transition deadline Gove thinks that will force the EU's hand to give us an FTA double quick, meantime EU are still saying UK can extend the deadline even though we've now said we won't, they are probably thinking Johnson will weaken as the no deadline approaches and back down -  not a great position for either side, bluffs and double bluffs, seen this over and over.
So clear that the UK Tory Govt has next to zero respect for any devolved administration, understand that - they were set up by Labour after all, so we get unconstructive point scoring and shenanigans (from all sides), devolution just doesn't really work unless the same parties are in power, hasn't been like that since 2008 for Scotland and 2010 for Wales......... and it shows.
Brexit remains as polarising as ever, politics always feels utterly frustrating, always negative.
Division and more division.
On top of the covid catastrophe.........plain Yuk.

Sorry for the moan, fed up.
		
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Surely you understand the constitutional positions on devolved powers and UK powers, isnt that the point of the devolved nations having representations in Westminster.

It's so obvious the EU want us to keep funding as long as possible and for that funding to increase.  Just imagine their position should we be a net beneficiary, they would have sown it up by now.


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## Fade and Die (Jun 12, 2020)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271502863915761671

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Did the Welsh and Scottish ministers then storm into their rooms, slam the door and shout tearfully “I HATE YOU ALL” 😂

(Edit:fwiw more than a million Scots voted to leave and some of the biggest leave areas are traditionally Labour. )


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 15, 2020)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1271502863915761671

Click to expand...

It has always been an English Tory Brexit. 
During discussions the views of Scotland and NI have never been addressed or listened to.
We just have to suck up whatever Westminster decides will happen to us despite our nation voting 2 to 1 to remain in the EU.


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## IanM (Jun 15, 2020)

Another lie......even the Valleys are Tory/Leave now boyo!


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## spongebob59 (Jun 15, 2020)

Prime Minister Boris Johnson met the President of the European Council Charles Michel, the President of the European Commission, Ursula von der Leyen, and the President of the European Parliament, David Sassoli, on 15 June by videoconference to take stock of progress with the aim of agreeing actions to move forward in negotiations on the future relationship.

    The Parties noted the UK’s decision not to request any extension to the transition period. The transition period will therefore end on 31 December 2020, in line with the provisions of the Withdrawal Agreement.

    The Parties welcomed the constructive discussions on the future relationship that had taken place under the leadership of Chief Negotiators David Frost and Michel Barnier, allowing both sides to clarify and further understand positions. They noted that four rounds had been completed and texts exchanged despite the challenges presented by the COVID-19 pandemic.

    The Parties agreed nevertheless that new momentum was required.  They supported the plans agreed by Chief Negotiators to intensify the talks in July and to create the most conducive conditions for concluding and ratifying a deal before the end of 2020.  This should include, if possible, finding an early understanding on the principles underlying any agreement.

    The Parties underlined their intention to work hard to deliver a relationship, which would work in the interests of the citizens of the Union and of the United Kingdom. They also confirmed their commitment to the full and timely implementation of the Withdrawal Agreement.”


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## SocketRocket (Jun 15, 2020)

IMO It's time to set clear Red lines now along these guidelines:

The UK as an Independant Country would like a free trade agreement with the EU based closely to those already agreed with Canada and Japan and fair to both the UK and the EU

We refuse the ECJ having any precedence over UK Law.

The UK must have control of its coastal fishing grounds as set out by international law. All fishing quotas in these grounds will be under control of the UK Government.

The UK will not agree to EU standards in Trade, Finance, Taxation, Quotas or Tarrrifs being applied and controlled in any way that precludes UK sovereign control.

There will be no freedom of movement for people between the EU and the UK. All immigration to the UK will be as set out in the UK's immigration system.


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## spongebob59 (Jun 15, 2020)

I heard a clip today of verstofhat ranting asking for more cash from the member states , if I find it I'll post it up. the best clip of his at the mo is him celebrating Farage losing his job at LBC, although I thought he left over a conflict of interest s.


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## Foxholer (Jun 15, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It has always been an English Tory Brexit. 
During discussions *the views of Scotland and NI* have never been addressed or listened to.
We just have to suck up whatever Westminster decides will happen to us despite our nation voting 2 to 1 to remain in the EU.
		
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You seem to have forgotten that country less than 50 miles west of the part of England where you harvested your salary, then buggered off back home to throw insults at the country that allowed you to do so!


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## drdel (Jun 16, 2020)

Despite the PM meeting  leaders of the EU it is not worth a mention by the BBC news app.


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## Foxholer (Jun 16, 2020)

drdel said:



			Despite the PM meeting  leaders of the EU it is not worth a mention by the BBC news app.
		
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Buried in the Politics page?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53048164
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53056105
I certainly saw the first item yesterday, though with a different pic.


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## Mudball (Jun 16, 2020)

Call me thick.. but i have stopped following Brexit as much as i have stopped listening to the daily Covid car crash briefings.  There are some red lines with this political lot
1) There is one rule for us and another for the others
2) Do as I say, not as I  do
3) If it serves the party (leader & his clique) and the next election then it is fair game
4) If the topic becomes too difficult, then change the narrative or give people something else to talk about
5) If you can score political points - within the country or against the EU - then do so
6) Experts - who needs them
7) Rest of the country - who needs them.  Let the kids go hungry during summer - they cannot vote as yet.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 16, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Call me thick.. but i have stopped following Brexit as much as i have stopped listening to the daily Covid car crash briefings.  There are some red lines with this political lot
1) There is one rule for us and another for the others
2) Do as I say, not as I  do
3) If it serves the party (leader & his clique) and the next election then it is fair game
4) If the topic becomes too difficult, then change the narrative or give people something else to talk about
5) If you can score political points - within the country or against the EU - then do so
6) Experts - who needs them
7) Rest of the country - who needs them.  Let the kids go hungry during summer - they cannot vote as yet.
		
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8) attack the BBC


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## Hacker Khan (Jun 16, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Call me thick.. but i have stopped following Brexit as much as i have stopped listening to the daily Covid car crash briefings.  There are some red lines with this political lot
1) There is one rule for us and another for the others
2) Do as I say, not as I  do
3) If it serves the party (leader & his clique) and the next election then it is fair game
4) If the topic becomes too difficult, then change the narrative or give people something else to talk about
5) If you can score political points - within the country or against the EU - then do so
6) Experts - who needs them
7) *Rest of the country - who needs them.  Let the kids go hungry during summer - they cannot vote as ye*t.
		
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Pleased to say they have U turned on that now, well played Marcus.  Who knew even the current Tory party have a limit beyond which they say '_you know what, may be we are behaving a bit like scum bags and taking this only caring for our rich donors thing a bit too far'. _

I look forwards to Harry Maguire explaining to them that Brexit isn't possibly the brightest thing to do at the moment, what with one thing and another. 

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...hford-politicians-nurses-footballer-ministers


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 16, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			Pleased to say they have U turned on that now, well played Marcus.  Who knew even the current Tory party have a limit beyond which they say '_you know what, may be we are behaving a bit like scum bags and taking this only caring for our rich donors thing a bit too far'. _

I look forwards to Harry Maguire explaining to them that Brexit isn't possibly the brightest thing to do at the moment, what with one thing and another. 

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...hford-politicians-nurses-footballer-ministers

Click to expand...

Maybe Mr Maguire could check with Johnson and Gove that they fully understand GATT Article XXIV para 5c - you know - the one that Johnson hadn't read - telling Neil that he would _confide entirely in para 5b.  _I do hope that they have got Frost working on the shape of the future trade agreement and a plan to get to that agreement as it certainly looks like we're going to need it...in accordance with para 5c...

Though the truth is that if the EU honestly believe that the UK to be rowing back on agreements we made in the Political Declaration (and of course they may be lying through their teeth to make UK look like renegers) then they could be hesitant over what they agree with us in respect of the shape of any future trading agreement under WTO rules they sign up to.  Likewise and equally (as for balance that is required) UK can certainly mistrust anything the EU say or sign up to.  So we should be wary signing up to any such framework...


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## Hobbit (Jun 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe Mr Maguire could check with Johnson and Gove that they fully understand GATT Article XXIV para 5c - you know - the one that Johnson hadn't read - telling Neil that he would _confide entirely in para 5b.  _I do hope that they have got Frost working on the shape of the future trade agreement and a plan to get to that agreement as it certainly looks like we're going to need it...in accordance with para 5c...
		
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It was a very valid point when this came up LAST YEAR. The outline discussions earlier this week looked like they were going to be working towards a framework agreement to cover this..... but I guess you missed it...... or chose to ignore it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 16, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			It was a very valid point when this came up LAST YEAR. The outline discussions earlier this week looked like they were going to be working towards a framework agreement to cover this..... but I guess you missed it...... or chose to ignore it.
		
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GATT Article XXIV Para 5c allows for two parties to trade under WTO rules with bilateral agreements in place - perhaps for specific sectors - so long as there is an agreed outline target trade agreement between the UK and the EU, and a plan to get from the current situation (UK trading with EU countries as we did when members of the EU) to that future agreement.

This does not mean that any special temporary agreements on specific sectors that we might make with the EU will not go unchallenged.  Under WTO rules any WTO partner can challenge what the UK and the EU might agree between themselves on a temporary basis.  If that challenge is upheld by the WTO (a WTO partner countries vote), WTO rules mean that any such arrangements we make are not allowed, and that all WTO partner countries must be able to trade with the UK on the same basis as we agree with the EU.

Well that is how I understand para 5c.  That's the bit that Johnson didn't appear to know about when he said UK would agree special arrangements with the EU if we had to trade under WTO rules.


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## Hobbit (Jun 16, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			GATT Article XXIV Para 5c allows for two parties to trade under WTO rules with bilateral agreements in place - perhaps for specific sectors - so long as there is an agreed outline target trade agreement between the UK and the EU, and a plan to get from the current situation (UK trading with EU countries as we did when members of the EU) to that future agreement.

This does not mean that any special temporary agreements on specific sectors that we might make with the EU will not go unchallenged.  Under WTO rules any WTO partner can challenge what the UK and the EU might agree between themselves on a temporary basis.  If that challenge is upheld by the WTO (a WTO partner countries vote), WTO rules mean that any such arrangements we make are not allowed, and that all WTO partner countries must be able to trade with the UK on the same basis as we agree with the EU.

Well that is how I understand para 5c.  That's the bit that Johnson didn't appear to know about when he said UK would agree special arrangements with the EU if we had to trade under WTO rules.
		
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And you're repeating yourself again, and again. We know exactly what it means, and I'd be very surprised if Boris doesn't know it after his car crash interview last year. And it isn't Boris doing the detail, thank god.

You need to find something better than last year's point, which you made very well at the time, but is now out of date in terms of the negotiating parties.

For example, there's a piece doing the rounds, on the back of the last meeting, which suggests that both parties are aiming for something very similar to the Canada deal. That deal more than satisfies GATT XXIV as a framework. Don't forget, although there has to be a mutual 'will' to satisfy WTO GATT XXIV, there is actually a fair bit of latitude in it.


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## Hobbit (Jun 16, 2020)

drdel said:



			Despite the PM meeting  leaders of the EU it is not worth a mention by the BBC news app.
		
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Mmm, it does make you wonder. We see a lot of reports about what is going on in the Spanish media. I wonder why the Beeb aren't showing what we see? Maybe I'm being a cynic but I wonder if its because things seem to be swinging a bit towards the UK? No, the Beeb wouldn't do that, surely?


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## IanM (Jun 16, 2020)

"Educational grants" paid for a lot of loyalty....


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 17, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			You seem to have forgotten that country less than 50 miles west of the part of England where you harvested your salary, then buggered off back home to throw insults at the country that allowed you to do so! 

Click to expand...

Wales is not a country. It is a Principality of England.


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## Foxholer (Jun 17, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Wales is not a country. It is a Principality of England. 

Click to expand...

Twaddle! Do some research!


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## Hobbit (Jun 17, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Wales is not a country. It is a Principality of England. 

Click to expand...

Isn’t Scotland England’s largest county?


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## drdel (Jun 17, 2020)

Wales - a country of Great Britain and the United Kingdom, to the west of central England; population 2,993,000 (est. 2008); capital, Cardiff. 
Scotland - a country forming the northernmost part of Great Britain and of the United Kingdom; population 5,169,000 (est. 2008); capital, Edinburgh. 
England - a country forming the largest and southernmost part of Great Britain and of the United Kingdom, and containing the capital, London; population 51,446,000 (est. 2008) 
N. Ireland - a province of the United Kingdom that occupies the north-eastern part of Ireland, comprised of six counties of Ulster; population 1,775,000 (est. 2008); capital, Belfast.


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## Old Skier (Jun 17, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Wales is not a country. It is a Principality of England. 

Click to expand...

Your ignorance is outstanding, you really do need to stop your racist baiting. Have you ever wondered why the majority of your 'friends' and 'relatives' live well away from you out of Scotland. Even your daughter wouldn't represent 'your' country in something or other and she choose England (apparently).


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 17, 2020)

And so Johnson tells us that it is countries such as Australia that are going to be the beneficiary of our exports once we are trading under WTO rules.  Truth is I am not that sure what it is on the agriculture or manufacturing sides that Australia is going to want to be importing from us on the other side of the world.  That said - they seem to love Japanese cars - and we manufacture them in bucket-loads - so maybe...?  They certainly don't seem to need our beef - and they are not too far from 'lamb country'.


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## Old Skier (Jun 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so Johnson tells us that it is countries such as Australia that are going to be the beneficiary of our exports once we are trading under WTO rules.  Truth is I am not that sure what it is on the agriculture or manufacturing sides that Australia is going to want to be importing from us on the other side of the world.  That said - they seem to love Japanese cars - and we manufacture them in bucket-loads - so maybe...?  They certainly don't seem to need our beef - and they are not too far from 'lamb country'.
		
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2018 alone we exported close to $6 billion and it's a two way deal so perhaps Australia will see better benefits from us being outside the EU.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 17, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			And you're repeating yourself again, and again. We know exactly what it means, and I'd be very surprised if Boris doesn't know it after his car crash interview last year. And it isn't Boris doing the detail, thank god.

You need to find something better than last year's point, which you made very well at the time, but is now out of date in terms of the negotiating parties.

For example, there's a piece doing the rounds, on the back of the last meeting, which suggests that both parties are aiming for something very similar to the Canada deal. That deal more than satisfies GATT XXIV as a framework. Don't forget, although there has to be a mutual 'will' to satisfy WTO GATT XXIV, there is actually a fair bit of latitude in it.
		
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If we cannot strike a deal with the EU and have to trade with them under WTO rules, we cannot simply strike bilateral deals with the EU unless a target future framework agreement is in place and we have a plan agreed with the EU for working towards that.  

That it now seems likely that we will not have a deal agreed, and we leave the transition period on 31st Dec without one, then this becomes important as our exports and imports to and from the EU will otherwise be faced with WTO tariffs.  In the context of the state of the economy and business as it is today - that being a very different state than from last year when previously discussed  - these tariffs could sink many business currently just keeping afloat.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 17, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			2018 alone we exported close to $6 billion and it's a two way deal so perhaps Australia will see better benefits from us being outside the EU.
		
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Maybe they will.  Though not heard too many in the know about Australia tell us that.  What is it that we're going to be exporting to Australia that we don't at the moment - or could export more of.   What sort of tariffs will apply?  And what is a realistic figure for exports to Australia - lets say in 10yrs time?


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## Old Skier (Jun 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe they will.  Though not heard too many in the know about Australia tell us that.  What is it that we're going to be exporting to Australia that we don't at the moment - or could export more of.   What sort of tariffs will apply?  And what is a realistic figure for exports to Australia - lets say in 10yrs time?
		
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So exactly who's are these people you know on the inside who are the experts on this. Obviously I can only go by the info on the tinternet because due to current restrictions I can't go to the hairdressers


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## SocketRocket (Jun 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If we cannot strike a deal with the EU and have to trade with them under WTO rules, we cannot simply strike bilateral deals with the EU unless a target future framework agreement is in place and we have a plan agreed with the EU for working towards that.  

That it now seems likely that we will not have a deal agreed, and we leave the transition period on 31st Dec without one, then this becomes important as our exports and imports to and from the EU will otherwise be faced with WTO tariffs.  In the context of the state of the economy and business as it is today - that being a very different state than from last year when previously discussed  - these tariffs could sink many business currently just keeping afloat.
		
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What are WTO tariffs?


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## Hobbit (Jun 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If we cannot strike a deal with the EU and have to trade with them under WTO rules, we cannot simply strike bilateral deals with the EU unless a target future framework agreement is in place and we have a plan agreed with the EU for working towards that.

That it now seems likely that we will not have a deal agreed, and we leave the transition period on 31st Dec without one, then this becomes important as our exports and imports to and from the EU will otherwise be faced with WTO tariffs.  In the context of the state of the economy and business as it is today - that being a very different state than from last year when previously discussed  - these tariffs could sink many business currently just keeping afloat.
		
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WTO tariffs? The WTO tariff database lists the tariffs each countries, or trading organisation(EU), applies. The WTO doesn't create tariffs. "These tariffs..." are these the WTO tariffs that don't exist?

We may not have a trade deal agreed by the end of the year but there may well be an agreed framework. Your point; "we cannot simply strike bilateral deals with the EU unless a target future framework agreement is in place." Please explain... I read that as waffle and gobbledygook - might even be twaddle. Surely everyone creates a framework(specification) for any deal?

Would you agree, sign, anything without a specification, a framework?


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## Mudball (Jun 25, 2020)

In other news  *Pound is becoming an emerging market currency, says BofA analyst*
.. https://www.ft.com/content/4fd04fd9-7209-4b7c-97a1-97466f226159

I am sure there is another side to this.. after all we were the 5th or 6th largest economy at some point...  Also may not have so much impact if you are hedgie with money offshore - albiet it might make ur even more richer every time ur offshore wealth back into GBP


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 25, 2020)

Mudball said:



			In other news  *Pound is becoming an emerging market currency, says BofA analyst*
.. https://www.ft.com/content/4fd04fd9-7209-4b7c-97a1-97466f226159

I am sure there is another side to this.. after all we were the 5th or 6th largest economy at some point...  Also may not have so much impact if you are hedgie with money offshore - albiet it might make ur even more richer every time ur offshore wealth back into GBP
		
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Excellent .. I am all in favour of an independent Scotland going with a bawbee as it's currency. Much classier than a groat.


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## Old Skier (Jun 25, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Excellent .. I am all in favour of an independent Scotland going with a bawbee as it's currency. Much classier than a groat.

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Happy with your econmy being worth a 1/12th of the RUK then


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## Mudball (Jun 25, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Happy with your econmy being worth a 1/12th of the RUK then
		
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 I only heard 'cheap dram'.... cant complain...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			WTO tariffs? The WTO tariff database lists the tariffs each countries, or trading organisation(EU), applies. The WTO doesn't create tariffs. "These tariffs..." are these the WTO tariffs that don't exist?

We may not have a trade deal agreed by the end of the year but there may well be an agreed framework. Your point; "we cannot simply strike bilateral deals with the EU unless a target future framework agreement is in place." Please explain... I read that as waffle and gobbledygook - might even be twaddle. Surely everyone creates a framework(specification) for any deal?

Would you agree, sign, anything without a specification, a framework?
		
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The UK can make free trade bilateral agreements with the EU in specific areas if the parties (UK and EU) can demonstrate to WTO Contracting Parties that UK and EU have agreed the framework schedule of a future comprehensive trade schedule and have a plan in place - with timescales - for reaching final agreement on that trade schedule.

That's what GATT Article XXIV para 5c is all about (the one Johnson didn't know about when talking about agreeing bilateral deals with the EU whilst operating under WTO rules).  

_5(c)    any interim agreement referred to in subparagraphs (a) and (b) shall include a plan and schedule for the formation of such a customs union or of such a free-trade area within a reasonable length of time. _

Without a framework or a plan - and even with them - WTO Contracting Parties can challenge what the UK and the EU have agreed - and then based upon a vote of the WTO partners the WTO Contracting Parties can specify changes to the agreement we have made.  If the UK and EU do not accept the changes then the WTO rules say that the UK/EU agreement cannot be put in place (Article XXIV para 7b)

_ 7(b)      If, after having studied the plan and schedule included in an interim agreement referred to in paragraph 5 in consultation with the parties to that agreement and taking due account of the information made available in accordance with the provisions of subparagraph (a), the CONTRACTING PARTIES find that such agreement is not likely to result in the formation of a customs union or of a free-trade area within the period contemplated by the parties to the agreement or that such period is not a reasonable one, the CONTRACTING PARTIES shall make recommendations to the parties to the agreement. The parties shall not maintain or put into force, as the case may be, such agreement if they are not prepared to modify it in accordance with these recommendations. _

So when we disappear out the back end of the transition period without a deal - I do hope that we have something agreed with them...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The UK can make free trade bilateral agreements with the EU in specific areas if the parties (UK and EU) can demonstrate to WTO Contracting Parties that UK and EU have agreed the framework schedule of a future comprehensive trade schedule and have a plan in place - with timescales - for reaching final agreement on that trade schedule.

That's what GATT Article XXIV para 5c is all about (the one Johnson didn't know about when talking about agreeing bilateral deals with the EU whilst operating under WTO rules). 

_5(c)    any interim agreement referred to in subparagraphs (a) and (b) shall include a plan and schedule for the formation of such a customs union or of such a free-trade area within a reasonable length of time. _

Without a framework or a plan - and even with them - WTO Contracting Parties can challenge what the UK and the EU have agreed - and then based upon a vote of the WTO partners the WTO Contracting Parties can specify changes to the agreement we have made.  If the UK and EU do not accept the changes then the WTO rules say that the UK/EU agreement cannot be put in place (Article XXIV para 7b)

_ 7(b)      If, after having studied the plan and schedule included in an interim agreement referred to in paragraph 5 in consultation with the parties to that agreement and taking due account of the information made available in accordance with the provisions of subparagraph (a), the CONTRACTING PARTIES find that such agreement is not likely to result in the formation of a customs union or of a free-trade area within the period contemplated by the parties to the agreement or that such period is not a reasonable one, the CONTRACTING PARTIES shall make recommendations to the parties to the agreement. The parties shall not maintain or put into force, as the case may be, such agreement if they are not prepared to modify it in accordance with these recommendations. _

So when we disappear out the back end of the transition period without a deal - I do hope that we have something agreed with them...
		
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Says the man who doesnt understand how Tariffs work.  

What you are suggesting here only applies to an interim period while a free trade agreement is being negotiated, countries can agree free trade agreements at will.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Says the man who doesnt understand how Tariffs work.

What you are suggesting here only applies to an interim period while a free trade agreement is being negotiated, countries can agree free trade agreements at will.
		
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Yes - but they have to have a framework Free trade schedule agreed up front and a realistic plan to finalise it.  If they don’t then anything they agree as an interim can be challenged. That’s what being ‘in control’ means in the context of the WTO.  We and the EU have to play by WTO rules.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 26, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - but they have to have a framework Free trade schedule agreed up front and a realistic plan to finalise it.  If they don’t then anything they agree as an interim can be challenged. That’s what being ‘in control’ means in the context of the WTO.  We and the EU have to play by WTO rules.
		
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I say again, that's only for interim agreements, taking back control means we can do that or not.


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## Hobbit (Jun 27, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - but they have to have a framework Free trade schedule agreed up front and a realistic plan to finalise it.  If they don’t then anything they agree as an interim can be challenged. That’s what being ‘in control’ means in the context of the WTO.  We and the EU have to play by WTO rules.
		
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And not just challenged as an interim agreement. Any final trade can be challenged under WTO rules. The EU had had many agreements challenged, and has lost many of those challenges, receiving a number of significant fines from the WTO. The protectionist EU has an horrendous record with the WTO.

The EU can't just agree a completely free trade agreement with the UK without risking a 3rd country challenging that agreement if that 3rd country doesn't have the same level of access to the EU and UK markets.

But at least the EU has recently managed to install a German as Head of the WTO....


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 27, 2020)

Looks like we will have to go 'cap in hand' to the EU and buy the French tested lorry port operations system as the UK one 'has hit a few snags'.
Pattern seems to be emerging here.


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## drdel (Jun 27, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Looks like *we will have to go 'cap in hand' to the EU* and buy the French *tested* lorry port operations system as the UK one 'has hit a few snags'.
Pattern seems to be emerging here.

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I'm sure you are certain there was absolutely no UK input as you have researched and know the details of the companies, the IPR owners, the software designers and code writers of the system the French *tested*! Alternatively, perhaps your post is just anti-UK simplistic spin.


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## Hobbit (Jun 27, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Looks like we will have to go 'cap in hand' to the EU and buy the French tested lorry port operations system as the UK one 'has hit a few snags'.
Pattern seems to be emerging here.

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Mmm, is there anything wrong with buying an off the shelf option, saving development costs? Equally, the U.K. has been tracking imports from around the world since forever. Is a container any different from a lorry, just another unit to track? ((( and having imported from around the world....is the article accurate....)))

I’m tempted to call BS on your post but to be fair I’ve not looked up your source.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, is there anything wrong with buying an off the shelf option, saving development costs? Equally, the U.K. has been tracking imports from around the world since forever. Is a container any different from a lorry, just another unit to track? ((( and having imported from around the world....is the article accurate....)))

I’m tempted to call BS on your post but to be fair I’ve not looked up your source.
		
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Of course not, makes absolute sense to me.
I seem to recall Davis or somebody saying that they will be well prepared and systems will be in place, a few months to go and they scrambling around for a solution that works for the EU and UK.
Cap and cheque book in hand to France. How much money was wasted developing the UK system. Were Tory donors involved in the process.


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## drdel (Jun 27, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Of course not, makes absolute sense to me.
I seem to recall Davis or somebody saying that they will be well prepared and systems will be in place, a few months to go and they scrambling around for a solution that works for the EU and UK.
Cap and cheque book in hand to France. How much money was wasted developing the UK system. Were Tory donors involved in the process.

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Perhaps you might provide the exact name of the system/software to which to refer?


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## chrisd (Jun 27, 2020)

Coo this really is a fantastic place to learn, so many experts,  can't  understand what makes  golfers clearly know more than the Government and civil servants 🤔


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## Hobbit (Jun 27, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Of course not, makes absolute sense to me.
I seem to recall Davis or somebody saying that they will be well prepared and systems will be in place, a few months to go and they scrambling around for a solution that works for the EU and UK.
Cap and cheque book in hand to France. How much money was wasted developing the UK system. Were Tory donors involved in the process.

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Aren't you making up selected questions for your own agenda? Let's face it, those two questions are very loaded. What is wrong with importing a ready made solution?

To repeat, the UK has imported from 3rd countries for donkey's years. Add the EU countries to that list. TBH, it sounds like a non-story made up to create a picture to satisfy someone's bias.


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## chrisd (Jun 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Aren't you making up selected questions for your own agenda? Let's face it, those two questions are very loaded. What is wrong with importing a ready made solution?

To repeat, the UK has imported from 3rd countries for donkey's years. Add the EU countries to that list. TBH, it sounds like a non-story made up to create a picture to satisfy someone's bias.
		
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Surely Brian you're not suggesting that DFT is a tad biased against a Tory Government  - well that's a new one for me 🤔


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## Hobbit (Jun 27, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Surely Brian you're not suggesting that DFT is a tad biased against a Tory Government  - well that's a new one for me 🤔
		
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I think his questions suggest a bias but I doubt he made the story up. Maybe he was selective with how he reported the story?


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## Leftie (Jun 27, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			I think his questions suggest a bias but I doubt he made the story up. Maybe he was selective with how he reported the story?
		
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I don't know how he finds time to find these "stories" and links.  I thought he spent most of his time fishing ...    He never lets facts get in the way of a wind up


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## User62651 (Jun 27, 2020)

I think these negotiations have stalled because the Cabinet is missing the female touch.


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, is there anything wrong with buying an off the shelf option, saving development costs? Equally, the U.K. has been tracking imports from around the world since forever. Is a container any different from a lorry, just another unit to track? ((( and having imported from around the world....is the article accurate....)))

I’m tempted to call BS on your post but to be fair I’ve not looked up your source.
		
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Perhaps this item would be a start 
https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog...ady-for-brexit-we-havent-even-started-as-yet/ - and there's a reference to this item https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...er-checks-trade-michael-gove-eu-a9328211.html

There are some pretty scary allegations! It's certainly scary, if it's true, that UK hasn't even started to build the UK equivalent! And that one won't be ready until 2025!


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2020)

Hobbit said:





SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If we cannot strike a deal with the EU and have to trade with them under *WTO rules*, we cannot simply strike bilateral deals with the EU unless a target future framework agreement is in place and we have a plan agreed with the EU for working towards that. 

That it now seems likely that we will not have a deal agreed, and we leave the transition period on 31st Dec without one, then this becomes important as our exports and imports to and from the EU will otherwise be faced with _WTO tariffs_.  In the context of the state of the economy and business as it is today - that being a very different state than from last year when previously discussed  - these tariffs could sink many business currently just keeping afloat.
		
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WTO tariffs? The WTO tariff database lists the tariffs each countries, or trading organisation(EU), applies. The WTO doesn't create tariffs. "These tariffs..." are these the WTO tariffs that don't exist?

We may not have a trade deal agreed by the end of the year but there may well be an agreed framework. Your point; "we cannot simply strike bilateral deals with the EU unless a target future framework agreement is in place." Please explain... I read that as waffle and gobbledygook - might even be twaddle. Surely everyone creates a framework(specification) for any deal?

Would you agree, sign, anything without a specification, a framework?
		
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I think you know SILH meant WTO Rules - which he did correctly use earlier in the post. Other his post seems, to me, to be quite valid - and, for those border-line businesses, quite scary. But that's 'business' imo. It's definitely something Government needs to provide clarity on asap!


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## drdel (Jun 28, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps this item would be a start - and there's a reference to this item https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...er-checks-trade-michael-gove-eu-a9328211.html

There are some pretty scary allegations! It's certainly scary, if it's true, that UK hasn't even started to build the UK equivalent! And that one won't be ready until 2025!
		
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The issue would be easily cleared if DfT would provide the details of the system.


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2020)

drdel said:



			The issue would be easily cleared if DfT would provide the details of the system.
		
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Wouldn't they have to define it first? My understanding is that they are still in the process of doing that, less than 6 months before it's likely to be implemented!

So, basically.....What System?!! It's not even a Proposal yet!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 28, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			I think these negotiations have stalled because the Cabinet is missing the female touch.

View attachment 31387

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## drdel (Jun 28, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Wouldn't they have to define it first? My understanding is that they are still in the process of doing that, less than 6 months before it's likely to be implemented!

So, basically.....What System?!! It's not even a Proposal yet!
		
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DfT said " Looks like we will have to go 'cap in hand' to the EU *and buy the French tested lorry port operations system *as the UK one 'has hit a few snags'.
Pattern seems to be emerging here. "

I am asking a very simple direct question; what Ports Ops System is he suggesting the UK buy? (I ask, not to be difficult but out of professional curiosity having being involved it the spec. of both the original SAD and CHIEF as well as truck tracking software).


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2020)

drdel said:



			DfT said " Looks like we will have to go 'cap in hand' to the EU *and buy the French tested lorry port operations system *as the UK one 'has hit a few snags'.
Pattern seems to be emerging here. "

I am asking a very simple direct question; what Ports Ops System is he suggesting the UK buy? (I ask, not to be difficult but out of professional curiosity having being involved it the spec. of both the original SAD and CHIEF as well as truck tracking software).
		
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That's certainly not a question for me! As of now, it seems even the UK Government isn't certain what it actually want - because it hasn't actually speficied that!

But FWIW, I'd suggest he has no idea which one, nor even the spec of one to either purchase or develop. Like me, I'm sure he'd be 'happy' for one that provides appropriate levels of functionality and performance at appropriate cost!


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## drdel (Jun 28, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			That's certainly not a question for me! As of now, it seems even the UK Government isn't certain what it actually want - because it hasn't actually speficied that!

But FWIW, I'd suggest he has no idea which one, nor even the spec of one to either purchase or develop. Like me, I'm sure he'd be 'happy' for one that provides appropriate levels of functionality and performance at appropriate cost!
		
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I was, not asking you to provide the data. 

DfT made a statement I merely wanted to know if it was based on fact/evidence. He could simply answer


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2020)

drdel said:



			I was, not asking you to provide the data.

DfT made a statement I merely wanted to know if it was based on fact/evidence. He could simply answer
		
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And that provides absolutely no additional clarity!
You really should consider a role in politics - if you are not already deeply involved in that sphere!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 28, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			And that provides absolutely no additional clarity!
You really should consider a role in politics - if you are not already deeply involved in that sphere!
		
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He merely asked Doon a question, why are you making suggestions about his employment prospects.


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			He merely asked Doon a question, why are you making suggestions about his employment prospects.
		
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More (team!) twaddle!


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## drdel (Jun 28, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			And that provides absolutely no additional clarity!
You really should consider a role in politics - if you are not already deeply involved in that sphere!
		
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What is wrong with you? You have chosen to insert your opinion based on a twisted and wrong interpretation of a simple query. You then expanded it; making it an issue then added a silly comment meant to offend. 

I repeat my simple question that I asked DfT. There was no malice or hidden agenda. DfT mentioned/suggested the UK would need to buy a Port system the French had tested. I just asked for more information so I could do a bit of my own research.

You could just leave it for DfT to provide any data he has.


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## Foxholer (Jun 28, 2020)

drdel said:



			What is wrong with you? You have chosen to insert your opinion based on a twisted and wrong interpretation of a simple query. You then expanded it; making it an issue then added a silly comment meant to offend.

I repeat my simple question that I asked DfT. There was no malice or hidden agenda. DfT mentioned/suggested the UK would need to buy a Port system the French had tested. I just asked for more information so I could do a bit of my own research.

You could just leave it for DfT to provide any data he has.
		
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Refer Posts 486 and 480!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 28, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			More (team!) twaddle!
		
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Oh dear!


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## drdel (Jul 3, 2020)

Following the negotiations ending a day early Barnier has demanded the UK understands the EU better and treats it with respect. Somewhat hypocritical considering the derogatory social media posts against PM May and the UK  from himself, Tusk and Verhofstadt a little over a year ago.

He has also now demanded - by press releases, that:
a) the UK shares its future plans for how it may support UK businesses. I can't think of any circumstances under which any organisation would share its overall aims and plans with anybody least of all a potential competitor in advance!
b) that the EU be allowed continued and permanent access to the majority of UK's fish resources to protect EU jobs
c) the UK permits the UK Courts to be subject to arbitration by the EU legislature.

I know he might just be marking time and grandstanding as he hopes to become Macron's second in command next year but that might not be good for France as he does not seem to grasp the basics of statesmanship and why the UK's referendum and recent election took place?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 3, 2020)

drdel said:



			Following the negotiations ending a day early Barnier has demanded the UK understands the EU better and treats it with respect. Somewhat hypocritical considering the derogatory social media posts against PM May and the UK  from himself, Tusk and Verhofstadt a little over a year ago.

He has also now demanded - by press releases, that:
a) the UK shares its future plans for how it may support UK businesses. I can't think of any circumstances under which any organisation would share its overall aims and plans with anybody least of all a potential competitor in advance!
b) that the EU be allowed continued and permanent access to the majority of UK's fish resources to protect EU jobs
c) the UK permits the UK Courts to be subject to arbitration by the EU legislature.

I know he might just be marking time and grandstanding as he hopes to become Macron's second in command next year but that might not be good for France as he does not seem to grasp the basics of statesmanship and why the UK's referendum and recent election took place?
		
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Well we need to share something of our plans if we hope to have any sort of bilateral agreements with the EU in the short term (GATT ArtXXIV para 5c and 7) - because we need the framework of a target Agreement to work towards and a plan to get there. And unless we are open on some things the EU will struggle to define and agree that framework with us.


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## Hobbit (Jul 3, 2020)

drdel said:



			Following the negotiations ending a day early Barnier has demanded the UK understands the EU better and treats it with respect. Somewhat hypocritical considering the derogatory social media posts against PM May and the UK  from himself, Tusk and Verhofstadt a little over a year ago.

He has also now demanded - by press releases, that:
a) the UK shares its future plans for how it may support UK businesses. I can't think of any circumstances under which any organisation would share its overall aims and plans with anybody least of all a potential competitor in advance!
b) that the EU be allowed continued and permanent access to the majority of UK's fish resources to protect EU jobs
c) the UK permits the UK Courts to be subject to arbitration by the EU legislature.

I know he might just be marking time and grandstanding as he hopes to become Macron's second in command next year but that might not be good for France as he does not seem to grasp the basics of statesmanship and why the UK's referendum and recent election took place?
		
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On point (a) I think the aim of the EU is to (almost) straightjacket the UK, restricting how the UK govt supports businesses going forward. That has to be a non-starter. Imagine the UK signing up to some form of restriction, and then the EU changes how it supports businesses in Europe as it climbs out of the Covid-led downturn?

On point (b) I expect there will be a trade off on access for several reasons. The UK fishing industry is in no fit state to take up the extra opportunities available when EU boats are excluded, hence the annual assessment of access the UK has offered. The Royal Navy can in no way, and probably doesn't want to get involved in, protecting UK waters from incursions.

Point (c), I hadn't realised the UK had lost a war and had to be subservient to a foreign power. If there's a disagreement, both sides should sit across a table and find a compromise. No way should one side decide what the outcome is - its almost laughable what the EU are insisting on in this respect. "Get stuffed" Would be my reply on this one.

As for respect; Barnier has bullied the UK negotiators, and under May's tenure he got away with it. He's not getting his way now and clearly finds he is unable to change his style.

Doing it all via the media; he was the one that wasn't happy when the UK published their position a few months back as it clearly showed that the UK did have a comprehensive set of criteria, unlike what he'd been saying in his 'Tweets.'

In all of the EU's demands has there ever been a "we'll give you x if you give us y?" "Its all been you have to do x and..."what? Nothing forthcoming from the EU that remotely suggests a negotiation. There's been no movement from the EU at all.


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## PNWokingham (Jul 3, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			On point (a) I think the aim of the EU is to (almost) straightjacket the UK, restricting how the UK govt supports businesses going forward. That has to be a non-starter. Imagine the UK signing up to some form of restriction, and then the EU changes how it supports businesses in Europe as it climbs out of the Covid-led downturn?

On point (b) I expect there will be a trade off on access for several reasons. The UK fishing industry is in no fit state to take up the extra opportunities available when EU boats are excluded, hence the annual assessment of access the UK has offered. The Royal Navy can in no way, and probably doesn't want to get involved in, protecting UK waters from incursions.

Point (c), I hadn't realised the UK had lost a war and had to be subservient to a foreign power. If there's a disagreement, both sides should sit across a table and find a compromise. No way should one side decide what the outcome is - its almost laughable what the EU are insisting on in this respect. "Get stuffed" Would be my reply on this one.

As for respect; Barnier has bullied the UK negotiators, and under May's tenure he got away with it. He's not getting his way now and clearly finds he is unable to change his style.

Doing it all via the media; he was the one that wasn't happy when the UK published their position a few months back as it clearly showed that the UK did have a comprehensive set of criteria, unlike what he'd been saying in his 'Tweets.'

In all of the EU's demands has there ever been a "we'll give you x if you give us y?" "Its all been you have to do x and..."what? Nothing forthcoming from the EU that remotely suggests a negotiation. There's been no movement from the EU at all.
		
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I cannot see why people fail to understand these issues and yet the bemoaners and yoghurt knighters are unnding in blaming the UK for "lack of progress", "failing to look after businesses", "being unreasonable" because they are not caving in to totally unreasonable EU demands. A trade deal should be within sight on normal logical trade pol icies of sovereign equals not "servant and master" terms


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## doublebogey7 (Jul 4, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			I cannot see why people fail to understand these issues and yet the bemoaners and yoghurt knighters are unnding in blaming the UK for "lack of progress", "failing to look after businesses", "being unreasonable" because they are not caving in to totally unreasonable EU demands. A trade deal should be within sight on normal logical trade pol icies of sovereign equals not "servant and master" terms
		
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What a load of tosh,  it was the brexiteers who said this would be the easiest negotiation in history,  yet it was those saying you lot were wrong who dont understand.  Wait till you find out what the USA want from us in a TA


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## SocketRocket (Jul 4, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			What a load of tosh,  it was the brexiteers who said this would be the easiest negotiation in history,  yet it was those saying you lot were wrong who dont understand.  Wait till you find out what the USA want from us in a TA
		
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Not that old potato again, sure we all said it would be the easiest negotiation in history. Of course we did


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## drdel (Jul 4, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			What a load of tosh,  it was the brexiteers who said this would be the easiest negotiation in history,  yet it was those saying you lot were wrong who dont understand.  Wait till you find out what the USA want from us in a TA
		
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There's a major difference between deals when both parties see benefits to a deal where one of the parties want to restrict the other party rather than gain benefits.


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## PNWokingham (Jul 4, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			What a load of tosh,  it was the brexiteers who said this would be the easiest negotiation in history,  yet it was those saying you lot were wrong who dont understand.  Wait till you find out what the USA want from us in a TA
		
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what a load of horse manure. This has nothing to do with brexiteers or remaiers. it is about sorting our a decent bi-lateral trade deal. Wake up and get with the programme rather than bleeting on about a campaign that is done and concluded. We are now fighting for trade deals for the good of our future not playing an "i told you so" routine. Anyone who believes than any trade deal will be easy priobably also believes in Father Christmas. You either back sound trade logic from the UK or you sit in the moaning corner


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 7, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			what a load of horse manure. This has nothing to do with brexiteers or remaiers. it is about sorting our a decent bi-lateral trade deal. Wake up and get with the programme rather than bleeting on about a campaign that is done and concluded. We are now fighting for trade deals for the good of our future not playing an "i told you so" routine. Anyone who believes than any trade deal will be easy priobably also believes in Father Christmas. You either back sound trade logic from the UK or you sit in the moaning corner
		
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You are joking of course...that any who believed what Tory Ministers and Leading Leave campaigners told us must also believe in Father Christmas...so you admit they lied to us?  So come on down Dr Liam Fox, David Davies et al.  You're all liars and spun us more than one, according to some of those who followed your lead to the ballot box


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## drdel (Jul 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You are joking of course...that any who believed what Tory Ministers and Leading Leave campaigners told us must also believe in Father Christmas...so you admit they lied to us?  So come on down Dr Liam Fox, David Davies et al.  You're all liars and spun us more than one, according to some of those who followed your lead to the ballot box
		
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So, apart from the childish , insults and derogatory comments, was there a comment you wished to make that might contribute to the moving the debate forward?


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## Hobbit (Jul 7, 2020)

Just reported in the English speaking press here in Spain.

EU appear to do a huge U-turn on its fisheries demands, and supports the UK's proposal on fishing quotas. They also hope that in doing so, both sides can be more creative going forward in other areas of the trade negotiations.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			So, apart from the childish , insults and derogatory comments, was there a comment you wished to make that might contribute to the moving the debate forward?
		
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So what of what I posted was 'childish , insults and derogatory comments'?  I was responding to a post that stated that - if you believed those who told us that a trade deal would be easy then you'd also be likely to believe in Father Christmas...

But then I wouldn't expect some to realise the absurdity of that comparison given so many of the electorate clearly DID believe such as Fox and Davies (Johnson, Farage and many others).  Those who believed must then be the childish ones as adults tend to not believe in Father Christmas - we now all know it is a deceit to keep us happy and behaving when we were young and innocent.   If it was never going to be easy, then why were we told that it would be.  If I am told something that those telling me know to be untrue - then I am being lied to.


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## Hobbit (Jul 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So what of what I posted was 'childish , insults and derogatory comments'?  I was responding to a post that stated that - if you believed those who told us that a trade deal would be easy then you'd also be likely to believe in Father Christmas...

But then I wouldn't expect some to realise the absurdity of that comparison given so many of the electorate clearly DID believe such as Fox and Davies (Johnson, Farage and many others).  Those who believed must then be the childish ones as adults tend to not believe in Father Christmas - we now all know it is a deceit to keep us happy and behaving when we were young and innocent.   If it was never going to be easy, then why were we told and lied to that it would be.
		
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Irrespective of whether you're right or not, and I'm not saying you're wrong, it was over 4 years ago. Everyone knows who said it, and everyone knows its long since proven to be false. What relevance does it have to now? What point is there in even raising it now?


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## drdel (Jul 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So what of what I posted was 'childish , insults and derogatory comments'?  I was responding to a post that stated that - if you believed those who told us that a trade deal would be easy then you'd also be likely to believe in Father Christmas...

But then I wouldn't expect some to realise the absurdity of that comparison given so many of the electorate clearly DID believe such as Fox and Davies (Johnson, Farage and many others).  Those who believed must then be the childish ones as adults tend to not believe in Father Christmas - we now all know it is a deceit to keep us happy and behaving when we were young and innocent.   If it was never going to be easy, then why were we told that it would be.  If I am told something that those telling me know to be untrue - then I am being lied to.
		
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I said "...was there a comment you wished to make that might contribute to the moving the debate forward? " Your retreat to years past and the comments you now make have, I think, proved my point.

Let's hope the No: 10 'informal' meeting tonight reveals some grown-up progress.


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## Mudball (Jul 8, 2020)

So the Chancellor has cut VAT.    I am trying to jog my memory... i thought the Brexit campaigners always said that the EU would not allow us to cut VAT on our own.   So has things changed? Have we already left without telling anyone?  or is it was just another lie?  i need a cup of tea


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 8, 2020)

Mudball said:



			So the Chancellor has cut VAT.    I am trying to jog my memory... i thought the Brexit campaigners always said that the EU would not allow us to cut VAT on our own.   So has things changed? Have we already left without telling anyone?  or is it was just another lie?  i need a cup of tea
		
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Of course we have _formally _left the EU, but still being in the transition period I think we are still having to comply with all or most EU rules and directives. Clearly only _most _level playing field constraints if we are changing VAT levels unilaterally.  Surprised we can do that given the fuss made over VAT on some female hygiene products.

Anyway - things will all be fine - though already it is disappointing recent (last month) news about the plans for UK to be building our own GPS satellite system given UK won't be part of EU's Galileo programme - as the UK's system was championed as a symbol of a post-Brexit Britain.   It seems that it might be either too expensive or too difficult - so we are taking something off-the-shelf previously operated by OneWeb (gone bust). 

Upside of this is that is much lower risk and cost than UK developing it's own system and building our own satellites - as recent experience suggests 'UK-bespoke' technology approach can be a bit problematic when 'off-the-shelf' alternatives are available - and we need the money.  Of course the risk remains that we try and reconfigure OneWeb for UK-specific requirements, and that can either end up quite expensive or we find that the OneWeb platform can't accommodate our needs.  It's not unknown in the defence and related industries.


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## MegaSteve (Jul 8, 2020)

I rather suspect others in the European Union will be doing what's right for them irrespective of the opinions of those that pollute Brussels...


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## Mudball (Jul 8, 2020)

MegaSteve said:



			I rather suspect others in the European Union will be doing what's right for them irrespective of the opinions of those that pollute Brussels...
		
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So if everyone can do what they want, then why are we leaving?..


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## MegaSteve (Jul 8, 2020)

Mudball said:



			So if everyone can do what they want, then why are we leaving?..
		
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In simple terms... How much bureaucracy do we need or can afford... In times of thrift slashing club membership fees seems appropriate...


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## Hobbit (Jul 8, 2020)

Mudball said:



			So the Chancellor has cut VAT.    I am trying to jog my memory... i thought the Brexit campaigners always said that the EU would not allow us to cut VAT on our own.   So has things changed? Have we already left without telling anyone?  or is it was just another lie?  i need a cup of tea
		
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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Of course we have _formally _left the EU, but still being in the transition period I think we are still having to comply with all or most EU rules and directives. Clearly only _most _level playing field constraints if we are changing VAT levels unilaterally.  Surprised we can do that given the fuss made over VAT on some female hygiene products.

Anyway - things will all be fine - though already it is disappointing recent (last month) news about the plans for UK to be building our own GPS satellite system given UK won't be part of EU's Galileo programme - as the UK's system was championed as a symbol of a post-Brexit Britain.   It seems that it might be either too expensive or too difficult - so we are taking something off-the-shelf previously operated by OneWeb (gone bust).

Upside of this is that is much lower risk and cost than UK developing it's own system and building our own satellites - as recent experience suggests 'UK-bespoke' technology approach can be a bit problematic when 'off-the-shelf' alternatives are available - and we need the money.  Of course the risk remains that we try and reconfigure OneWeb for UK-specific requirements, and that can either end up quite expensive or we find that the OneWeb platform can't accommodate our needs.  It's not unknown in the defence and related industries.
		
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Not sure where we are with the Brexit thing and what we can change.

HOWEVER, there is an EU rate and individual countries can set variations around that. A VAT 'dividend' is paid to the EU, and the balance is kept 'locally.' Here in Spain we have variations around 21%, some things being at a rate a lot less.

If the 'dividend' doesn't have to be returned to the EU.... a rate cut?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 9, 2020)

Liz Truss letter to Sunak and Gove just Tory Project Fear?  Amongst other concerns she warns that Gove's idea (I hesitate to call it a plan) for a *gradual implementation *of border controls with the EU after we leave the transition period on 31st December may well be subject to legal challenge from WTO member nations.  That's the problem with trading as part of a larger group - they tend to have rules all members have to play to.  And for the WTO the rules around MFN are very important. 

https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/fact2_e.htm

Who could have known


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## Hobbit (Jul 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Liz Truss letter to Sunak and Gove just Tory Project Fear?  Amongst other concerns she warns that Gove's idea (I hesitate to call it a plan) for a *gradual implementation *of border controls with the EU after we leave the transition period on 31st December may well be subject to legal challenge from WTO member nations.  That's the problem with trading as part of a larger group - they tend to have rules all members have to play to.  And for the WTO the rules around MFN are very important.

https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/fact2_e.htm

Who could have known 

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It might well be challenged but, equally, WTO rules allow for a gradual implementation(the very words used in the WTO text), and is deemed part of the "progressive liberalisation" of trade with WTO members. And if Gove used the words "gradual implementation," part of WTO's own docs, maybe he understands it better than you.


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## Leftie (Jul 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Who could have known
		
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Well.  Michael Gove and his team I suppose.  And of course our Hobbit 

Hugh couldn't have known


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## Blue in Munich (Jul 9, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			It might well be challenged but, equally, WTO rules allow for a gradual implementation(the very words used in the WTO text), and is deemed part of the "progressive liberalisation" of trade with WTO members. And if Gove used the words "gradual implementation," part of WTO's own docs, maybe he understands it better than you.
		
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Maybe Gove has a more honest agenda?


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## Leftie (Jul 10, 2020)

I think that SILH must get a lot of his (mis)information and bile from his idol J O'B who has, I understand, recently been slapped down a few times on air by interviewees who actually knew what they were talking about and who could debate.  J O'B should be more careful who he interviews.  He doesn't take kindly to being exposed as what he really is.


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## Hobbit (Jul 10, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Maybe Gove has a more honest agenda?
		
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"Honest" and "Gove" in the same sentence is a tough pill to swallow. Extremely intelligent, absolutely. And ably backed by some very good Civil Servants. 

I do think that "gradual implementation" leaves scope for interpretation, and I do know that the phraseology will have been stress tested by some very clever people. At the end of the day, WTO will be the arbitrators of that.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 10, 2020)

Liz Trust warns....….that should send a cold shiver down your backbone.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 10, 2020)

Hobbit said:



			It might well be challenged but, equally, WTO rules allow for a gradual implementation(the very words used in the WTO text), and is deemed part of the "progressive liberalisation" of trade with WTO members. And if Gove used the words "gradual implementation," part of WTO's own docs, maybe he understands it better than you.
		
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Maybe he does; maybe he knows more than Liz Truss; maybe Liz Truss spoke to Gove about her concerns; maybe she wasn't happy with what she heard from him; and maybe that's why she wrote to Gove and Sunak on her concerns.


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## Mudball (Jul 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Liz Truss letter to Sunak and Gove just Tory Project Fear?  Amongst other concerns she warns that Gove's idea (I hesitate to call it a plan) for a *gradual implementation *of border controls with the EU after we leave the transition period on 31st December may well be subject to legal challenge from WTO member nations.  That's the problem with trading as part of a larger group - they tend to have rules all members have to play to.  And for the WTO the rules around MFN are very important.

https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_e/fact2_e.htm

Who could have known 

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Cant we just up sticks and leave the WTO??    Trump seems to be pulling out of evertying, Paris, WHO, NATO etc..  why cant we just pull up the drawbridge and show two fingers to WTO.   We will do what is right for us (and some offshore millionaires)


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## drdel (Jul 12, 2020)

Its worrying that the Chancellor has been reading the Forum ! Well he seems to have taken on board the idea of more Freeports that a few of us discussed and recommended many months ago.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 12, 2020)

Gove doing his Michael Howard imitation on the Marr show when he was repeatedly asked if Johnson was wrong about his 'no border check in NI' comments.'


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 12, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Gove doing his Michael Howard imitation on the Marr show when he was repeatedly asked if Johnson was wrong about his 'no border check in NI' comments.'
		
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Technically Johnson is correct that there will be no border check IN Northern Ireland. The border check will be BETWEEN the rest of the UK and NI.


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## Mudball (Jul 12, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Technically Johnson is correct that there will be no border check IN Northern Ireland. The border check will be BETWEEN the rest of the UK and NI. 

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clutching on straws are we...


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## chrisd (Jul 12, 2020)

Mudball said:



			clutching on straws are we...
		
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There's no need to clutch at straws, we're out of the EU and whatever happens we will be just fine, border controls, or whatever, we will be ok


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## Hobbit (Jul 12, 2020)

Interesting living in Europe, and reading news from European countries on the progress of the negotiations. And one thing that is obvious in the last few years of doing so, the UK has never been close to being _in_ the EU. Another thing that is a real difference is the news reporting I see, not just on the Brexit negotiations, but also on what's going on in Europe. And disappointingly, the very poor(deliberate?), lack of reporting from the Beeb on how the individual European countries perceive what the future relationship will look like - before anyone jumps in and says why should it show the individual country's position, its reported here.

A few examples, Barnier has publicly stated that ECJ rulings will not have a place in the future relationship, and that a different mechanism will be required to adjudicate differences. That the EU must accept the UK's position on fisheries. That the EU has been unable to wrest business from the City of London, and that the EU is unable to handle EU clearing, which will continue to see trillions of Euro's being cleared through London - rules have been amended to allow this to continue after year end.

And has the Beeb reported any of this? Plenty of negativity but a whole lot of what is happening isn't making it onto the Beeb's pages.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 13, 2020)

People who did not know what they voted for complain about what they voted for.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/othe...ted-for-it/ar-BB16FlpM?ocid=spartan-dhp-feeds


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 14, 2020)

I have just read that the cost of the UK leaving the EU nearly equates to that of the total amount of the UK's contributions to the EU from 1973 to 2020.
Surely that cannot be right.


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## ColchesterFC (Jul 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I have just read that the cost of the UK leaving the EU nearly equates to that of the total amount of the UK's contributions to the EU from 1973 to 2020.
Surely that cannot be right.
		
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I would guess that it depends on what they are including as the "cost" of leaving the EU and whether it's based on actual or predicted costs and also over what timescale they are calculating it. For example, if they have said that tariffs will cost us £5 billion per year (figure plucked out of the air) for 50 years then there's £250 billion right there. 

I would suggest that the actual cost of leaving isn't that high and is only our outstanding commitments with what we owe, which will be far less than our contributions over 47 years. If they're including other "costs" such as possible tariffs, reduction in GDP etc then they could quite easily make it add up to more.

Have you got a link to where you read it?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jul 14, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			I would guess that it depends on what they are including as the "cost" of leaving the EU and whether it's based on actual or predicted costs and also over what timescale they are calculating it. For example, if they have said that tariffs will cost us £5 billion per year (figure plucked out of the air) for 50 years then there's £250 billion right there.

I would suggest that the actual cost of leaving isn't that high and is only our outstanding commitments with what we owe, which will be far less than our contributions over 47 years. If they're including other "costs" such as possible tariffs, reduction in GDP etc then they could quite easily make it add up to more.

Have you got a link to where you read it?
		
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## ColchesterFC (Jul 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



View attachment 31610

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Would be interested to know how they have separated out the cost of Brexit from the cost of Covid19. I'm not sure that 2020 would have turned out to be a stellar year for economic growth even without Brexit.


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## Mudball (Jul 14, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			Would be interested to know how they have separated out the cost of Brexit from the cost of Covid19. I'm not sure that 2020 would have turned out to be a stellar year for economic growth even without Brexit.
		
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Typical... you are letting facts get in the way of a good story...     

As it has been repeated on this thread, the reality is 'we are/have LEFT, so we are going to take our ball and leave, everything is collateral damage'...   the future is bright so bring your rose tinted sunglasses


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## Hobbit (Jul 14, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



View attachment 31610

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So spending £203bn to leave is worse then spending £215bn to stay is a bad idea... saving £12bn, more than one years contributions is a bad idea. And that's based on a guess... aye right.


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## Mudball (Jul 14, 2020)

This thread and the Boris new beginning thread summarised in one post...


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## Hobbit (Jul 14, 2020)

Mudball said:



			This thread and the Boris new beginning thread summarised in one post...

View attachment 31622

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Sorry, what was that you said...


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## Mudball (Aug 16, 2020)

This is good Brexit  news... 
1) we have some expensive fish that we can catch
2) Deal with Japan coming thru
3) this will pay off the debt by selling these by the kilo to the Japanese ...

Job done... roll on the free world 
https://www.ladbible.com/news/animals-worlds-most-valuable-fish-spotted-off-coast-of-uk-20200814


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## spongebob59 (Aug 21, 2020)

WTO here we come.

“The EU insists not only that we must accept continuity with EU state aid & fisheries policy, but also that this must be agreed before any further substantive work can be done in any other area... including on legal texts.  This makes it unnecessarily difficult to make progress."


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 21, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			WTO here we come.

“The EU insists not only that we must accept continuity with EU state aid & fisheries policy, but also that this must be agreed before any further substantive work can be done in any other area... including on legal texts.  This makes it unnecessarily difficult to make progress."
		
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No surprise to me, it was what the dodgy half of the Tory party played for all along. 
Fasten your seat belts and your wallet straps.


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## Foxholer (Aug 21, 2020)

spongebob59 said:



			WTO here we come.

“The EU insists not only that we must accept continuity with EU state aid & fisheries policy, but also that this must be agreed before any further substantive work can be done in any other area... including on legal texts.  This makes it unnecessarily difficult to make progress."
		
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Both sides saying a deal seems unlikely! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53854730 
Quelle suprise!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 21, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Both sides saying a deal seems unlikely! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53854730
Quelle suprise! 

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What happened to the 'easiest deal'; the German car makers; the French and Italian wine and cheese producers...the 'they need us more than we need them' spiel.  Well I suppose there is still time.  Though not a lot as a deal has to be put to the EU27 governments October latest.

And it doesn't matter if the EU are being unreasonable - because we were supposed to hold all the cards...the EU can demand every unreasonable thing they want - it's *their *choice what they offer and demand - they know the consequences of not reaching agreement on a trade deal.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 21, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What happened to the 'easiest deal'; the German car makers; the French and Italian wine and cheese producers...the 'they need us more than we need them' spiel.  Well I suppose there is still time.  Though not a lot as a deal has to be put to the EU27 governments October latest.

And it doesn't matter if the EU are being unreasonable - because we were supposed to hold all the cards...the EU can demand every unreasonable thing they want - it's *their *choice what they offer and demand - they know the consequences of not reaching agreement on a trade deal.
		
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There can never be a deal if either side doesnt want one. Your ongoing repetition of 'easiest deal' and German car manufacturers etc is hacknied and rather juvenile.  You obviously want there to be no deal and for the UK to come off badly so you can pull out the 'I told you so' card.   The trade situation will of course be a bad for both sides if there is no real effort to make the best of the situation.


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## Foxholer (Aug 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			There can never be a deal if either side doesnt want one....
		
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I agree - and the EU's reluctance/refusal (negotiations actually seem to be a charade!) was entirely predictable - I seem to remember doing exactly that in the original Brexit (Vote) thread!


SocketRocket said:



			....Your ongoing repetition of 'easiest deal' and German car manufacturers etc is hacknied and rather juvenile.*...*

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As this was a major claim in the campaign, it's entirely appropriate to point out that the claim turned out to be false! It seems to me that any 'juvenile' activity is from those who can't 'man up' and admit that the claim was wrong!


SocketRocket said:



			...You obviously want there to be no deal and for the UK to come off badly so you can pull out the 'I told you so' card....
		
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Speculation (perhaps even 'juvenilely' so!) that I'm certain is wrong - I believe SILH has already refute that assertion several times!


SocketRocket said:



			...The trade situation will of course be a bad for both sides if there is no real effort to make the best of the situation.
		
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But the devotion by the EU hierarchy to 'punish' UK (part of which I'm certain is to deter others from following) don't particularly care about the (immediate) economic consequences to member states in comparison to the 'European Project'! UK now needs to assume (if it hasn't already) that it'll be 'No Deal' - even though we all know that'll be extremely costly for UK!


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 21, 2020)

An observation on the negotiation, it's August. Leave date is Dec 31st. The nature of these things is slightly childish in that they tend to go to the wire. If we are in the same place come December then it will be time to worry. Otherwise it is part of the usual posturing, sad to say.


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 21, 2020)

If the EU shows a willingness to do a deal then there will soon be a queue at their door and their little empire will collapse.  So despite the fact that the deal should be easy to do, as it would benefit both sides, those desperately trying to cling to power will continue to try & punish the upstart to deter the remaining members from following them.


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## Sweep (Aug 21, 2020)

Much difficulty is caused by the EU’s way of negotiating. Quite often through this entire process they have insisted on agreeing one aspect before they will move on to another. It’s still the same. According to UK negotiators the EU are currently insisting that the UK must accept continuity with the EU state aid and fisheries policy before any further substantive work can be done on any other area of negotiation. One frustrated UK negotiator is quoted as saying “obviously we are not going to do that, so it’s frozen”.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 21, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			As this was a major claim in the campaign, it's entirely appropriate to point out that the claim turned out to be false! It seems to me that any 'juvenile' activity is from those who can't 'man up' and admit that the claim was wrong!
		
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It wasn't a major claim in the campaign, it was rather a throwaway comment By Dr Fox and never a part of Leave policy.

You seem to adapting the role of Hogan Dad, I'm sure he is quite able to defend his own comments.


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## Foxholer (Aug 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



*It wasn't a major claim in the campaign*, it was rather a throwaway comment By Dr Fox and never a part of Leave policy.
...
		
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It may have been a 'throwaway' comment, but it certainly _became_ a major claim!
And, having been shown to be a fallacy - though the qualification of 'politics getting in the way' has certainly (and unfortunately, but inevitably imo) been shown to be correct!

As for the rest - the personal 'attack'... Surely, it's time you stopped 'attacking the poster(s)' and debated the post!
`


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## SocketRocket (Aug 21, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			It may have been a 'throwaway' comment, but it certainly _became_ a major claim!
And, having been shown to be a fallacy - though the qualification of 'politics getting in the way' has certainly (and unfortunately, but inevitably imo) been shown to be correct!
`
		
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Only a major claim for those looking for anti Brexit ammunition.


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## Foxholer (Aug 21, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Only a major claim for those looking for anti Brexit ammunition.
		
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Actually - at the time - Brexit ammunition!
The fact that the (only partially quoted) statement has come back to 'haunt' is 'sad but true'!


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## Mudball (Aug 24, 2020)

More from the Remoaners....  silly folks now want to hold Brexiteers accountable if they cant get a deal they promised they would get.  Which cloud do they live on?


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## drdel (Aug 26, 2020)

Interesting to see Barnier at his press briefing promoting his soon to be released book on the negotiations - no wonder he's always on social media.

Do these people have no professionalism?


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 26, 2020)

drdel said:



			Interesting to see Barnier at his press briefing promoting his soon to be released book on the negotiations - no wonder he's always on social media.

Do these people have no professionalism?
		
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Given his negotiating tactics I imagine it won't be a long read.


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## chrisd (Aug 26, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			Given his negotiating tactics I imagine it won't be a long read.
		
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I'm quite surprised that he managed to negotiate a book deal in the first place 🤔


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 26, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I'm quite surprised that he managed to negotiate a book deal in the first place 🤔
		
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He didn't negotiate it; he bullied the publisher into it.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 26, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			He didn't negotiate it; he bullied the publisher into it.
		
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The Dummies Guide to Dumb Negotiations.


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## Hobbit (Aug 29, 2020)

drdel said:



			Interesting to see Barnier at his press briefing promoting his soon to be released book on the negotiations - no wonder he's always on social media.

Do these people have no professionalism?
		
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Professionalism? The mouthpiece for Macron? Seriously?

In the last 2 months he's recommended the EU accept the UK offer on two major stumbling blocks, and they've been accepted by the vast majority of the EU..... apart from France.


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## drdel (Aug 29, 2020)

Stonewall has been the EU approach to negotiations for decades.

Born out of arrogance when the wealth of Europe's population was growing and so the internal market was attractive and the big ticket items (cars, planes, industrial machinery etc) were in demand worldwide and Germany benefitted most from the protectionist ploy.

In today's world demand for these products is less and in the EU the markets are mature with insufficient demand to maintain the growth that is needed just to fund their debt mountain. However the EU still *think* everybody wants access. France has been supported ever since the EC was formed and rarely follow the rules.

The deal with Canada took 8 years!  With 27 members with diverging beliefs stonewalling by the executive is one way of never taking the blame for a failure to agree.


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## PNWokingham (Aug 29, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What happened to the 'easiest deal'; the German car makers; the French and Italian wine and cheese producers...the 'they need us more than we need them' spiel.  Well I suppose there is still time.  Though not a lot as a deal has to be put to the EU27 governments October latest.

And it doesn't matter if the EU are being unreasonable - because we were supposed to hold all the cards...the EU can demand every unreasonable thing they want - it's *their *choice what they offer and demand - they know the consequences of not reaching agreement on a trade deal.
		
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You really are a UK hater. Why don't you pack up and go and live abroad rather than bring up stupid rhetoric that every politician is guilty of. We are asking for a very normal out-of-the-box trade deal. They are being unreasonable. End of. Grow up and have a more balanced outlook on what YOUR country is trying to achieve. Maybe a bit more public support for a very fair deal would help get some momentum behind our position. BREXIT is over, The game now is a to try and get a good balanced deal but you still cannot see that. Also, nothing is finished with the EU until the end so each side can say what they want. If they do not accept our status as an independant country, there will be no deal. We will not be held hostage by the EU still having power in our country over what any normal trade deal would be. And it is not just them that know the consequences - we also do if you didn't realise that - but you can take a bullying horse to water but not necessarily make it drink!


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## DanFST (Aug 29, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			We are asking for a very normal out-of-the-box trade deal. They are being unreasonable. End of.
		
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I don't think they are, why would you give any concessions when there is so much time left to negotiate? Not worth stressing about till Christmas.


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## PNWokingham (Aug 29, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I don't think they are, why would you give any concessions when there is so much time left to negotiate? Not worth stressing about till Christmas.
		
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no neeed to drag on until the end but it likely will. But then again, a pretty mutually agreeable win-win is also easy to do and then put tp bed and stop wasting time on it and concentrate on the plenty of other things that could help our respective economies.


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## DanFST (Aug 29, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			no neeed to drag on until the end but it likely will. But then again, a pretty mutually agreeable win-win is also easy to do and then put tp bed and stop wasting time on it and concentrate on the plenty of other things that could help our respective economies.
		
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I do agree with you! But that's never how these things work.


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## Ethan (Aug 29, 2020)

DanFST said:



			I don't think they are, why would you give any concessions when there is so much time left to negotiate? Not worth stressing about till Christmas.
		
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The EU is not going to concede on the level playing field, and nobody in their right mind would expect them to. David Frost and Boris Johnson certainly don't. 

The UK will have to agree, in one way or another, or it is no deal and only the utterly delusional think that would not be devastating to the economy, piled on top of Covid.


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## Foxholer (Aug 29, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			You really are a UK hater....!
		
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Totally unjustified and, I believe, totally wrong! Just because SILH believes that being 'part of Europe' is better for UK than 'being independent' (note my 'impartiality'!) doesn't mean he's a UK Hater - just as, I presume, you are not a Europe hater - though you are quite entitled to be an EU hater!


PNWokingham said:



			...We are asking for a very normal out-of-the-box trade deal. They are being unreasonable. End of...
		
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As was so predictable - and predicted! So while 'should be the easiest deal...' was predicted, not 'the easiest deal....' after all! And that was entirely predictable/predicted too!


PNWokingham said:



			...BREXIT is over, The game now is a to try and get a good balanced deal... Also, nothing is finished with the EU until the end so each side can say what they want. If they do not accept our status as an independant country, there will be no deal. *We will not be held hostage by the EU still having power in our country* over what any normal trade deal would be....
		
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This I agree with (especially the bold bit) - though some 'transitional arrangements' might be required/acceptable.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The EU is not going to concede on the level playing field, and nobody in their right mind would expect them to. David Frost and Boris Johnson certainly don't.

The UK will have to agree, in one way or another, or it is no deal and only the utterly delusional think that would not be devastating to the economy, piled on top of Covid.
		
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Why should anyone in their right mind expect their independant country to have its trade rules set by an external organisation, Boris Johnson and David Frost certainly wouldn't, it would be devastating to the economy despite Covid.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Why should anyone in their right mind expect their independant country to have its trade rules set by an external organisation, Boris Johnson and David Frost certainly wouldn't, it would be devastating to the economy despite Covid.
		
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Just as well that the WTO doesn’t have any rules that UK will have to abide by...erm...


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## Ethan (Aug 30, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Why should anyone in their right mind expect their independant country to have its trade rules set by an external organisation, Boris Johnson and David Frost certainly wouldn't, it would be devastating to the economy despite Covid.
		
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No, you don't get it. The UK can set any trade rules it likes. If it wants the EU to agree to them, they have to be in line with EU principles. They are also in the WTO rules too. If it doesn't want to agree to them, it can walk away. It would not be devastating to the economy to agree a level playing field, but no deal will be catastrophic. No economist worth a damn will argue that any form of Brexit, least of all a no deal, is better for the UK economy than being in the EU. If you think otherwise, please enlighten me.

Oh, and exactly the same 'trade rules set by an external organisation' will apply to trade deals with the US, China and anywhere else with any leverage. I therefore take it from your approach that the UK should tell them all to take a hike.

The UK has always been an independent (or independant, which presumably has a different nationalistic meaning) country. It has also been a member of the WTO, UN, NATO, G7, OECD, World Bank etc etc where participation according to organisational rules has always been a part. I assume you believe the UK should leave all of those forthwith.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2020)

Ethan said:



			No, you don't get it. The UK can set any trade rules it likes. If it wants the EU to agree to them, they have to be in line with EU principles. They are also in the WTO rules too. If it doesn't want to agree to them, it can walk away. It would not be devastating to the economy to agree a level playing field, but no deal will be catastrophic. No economist worth a damn will argue that any form of Brexit, least of all a no deal, is better for the UK economy than being in the EU. If you think otherwise, please enlighten me.

Oh, and exactly the same 'trade rules set by an external organisation' will apply to trade deals with the US, China and anywhere else with any leverage. I therefore take it from your approach that the UK should tell them all to take a hike.

The UK has always been an independent (or independant, which presumably has a different nationalistic meaning) country. It has also been a member of the WTO, UN, NATO, G7, OECD, World Bank etc etc where participation according to organisational rules has always been a part. I assume you believe the UK should leave all of those forthwith.
		
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Making mileage from someones typo is a rather poor and childish attempt to belittle. You seem to do it often.

You seem to be using half truths to convince yourself that your preferences are indisputable.

If the UK agreed to a level playing field on trade standards and competition then it would be subject to penalties from the ECJ if it did anything different, that cant be acceptable for an independent country. WTO rules dont work that way, they only encourage free trade and apply to tariffs which you set yourself.

Free trade agreements set with other countries dont encroach on how you trade with the rest of the World. Please explain how that would work?

You really are guilding the lilly to suggest the UKs membership of the UN, NATO etc are in any way connected to how we trade with the World, that's just plain silly. You need to understand that the reason we joined the EU was for free trade, not to become a state in a federal Europe, that arguement is over now, we decided it wasnt for us and we prefer to be free of the EUs control, how on earth can the EU having any influence on our trade, standards, fishing grounds etc meet that objective, it just cant.

OK your preference to remain in the EU didnt succeed, it may be a bitter pill for you but it's time you swallowed it and maned up to reality.


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## drdel (Aug 30, 2020)

Ethan said:



			No, you don't get it. The UK can set any trade rules it likes. If it wants the EU to agree to them, they have to be in line with EU principles. They are also in the WTO rules too. If it doesn't want to agree to them, it can walk away. It would not be devastating to the economy to agree a level playing field, but *no deal will be catastrophic. No economist worth a damn will argue that any form of Brexit, (1)* least of all a no deal, is better for the UK economy than being in the EU. If you think otherwise, please enlighten me.

Oh, and exactly the same *'trade rules set by an external organisation*' (2) will apply to trade deals with the US, China and anywhere else with any leverage. I therefore take it from your approach that the UK should tell them all to take a hike.

The UK has always been an independent (or independant, which presumably has a different nationalistic meaning) country. It has also been a member of the WTO, UN, NATO, G7, OECD, World Bank etc etc where *participation according to organisational rules (3)* has always been a part. I assume you believe the UK should leave all of those forthwith.
		
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There is a wide and fundamental difference between a 'deal' struck by another agency than an agreement between two or more sovereign states with representation.

1. Erroneously daft claim; plenty of economists (I for one, but according to you my view is not worth a dam) would be at odds with your assumption. The EU is a PONSI system based on debt and is far too slow to respond to modern market developments and currency volatility. It has just aided Germany and France. Even the Greek bailout only saw about 10% go to Greece the rest poured into German and French Banks and the recent Budget agreement benefits the Italian and French Banks.  Its trade policy is no longer relevant in the modern world.

2. IMO you have no idea how international trade deals are set. There are a variety of of pre-meetings on a host of areas to seek out where commonality etc exists and the general benefits to BOTH parties. Once it is established that it is a good move then Governments set out their *agreed* path.

3. This is a quite silly assertion IMO. The UK is a major world economy and has representation on these bodies and is part of the mechanism which MUTUALLY agrees the basis of the organisation.


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## Ethan (Aug 30, 2020)

drdel said:



			There is a wide and fundamental difference between a 'deal' struck by another agency than an agreement between two or more sovereign states with representation.

1. Erroneously daft claim; plenty of economists (I for one, but according to you my view is not worth a dam) would be at odds with your assumption. The EU is a PONSI system based on debt and is far too slow to respond to modern market developments and currency volatility. It has just aided Germany and France. Even the Greek bailout only saw about 10% go to Greece the rest poured into German and French Banks and the recent Budget agreement benefits the Italian and French Banks.  Its trade policy is no longer relevant in the modern world.

2. IMO you have no idea how international trade deals are set. There are a variety of of pre-meetings on a host of areas to seek out where commonality etc exists and the general benefits to BOTH parties. Once it is established that it is a good move then Governments set out their *agreed* path.

3. This is a quite silly assertion IMO. The UK is a major world economy and has representation on these bodies and is part of the mechanism which MUTUALLY agrees the basis of the organisation.
		
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Typically, your comments are sprinkled with unnecessary dismissive and insulting remarks that say more about your contemptuous attitude than anything else.  

If you really are an economist, then you will know that all national budgets are, to use your inaccurately used descriptor much beloved of the right, Ponzi (or as you prefer, PONSI, although it is not an acronym) schemes. Money taken in today is used to pay someone else's cost today. Your NI contributions are not really saved up for you. As to whether your view is worth a dam (sic) or not, I may or may not have heard your view expressed in the media, but aside from the nutcase Minford, hardly any economies of national standing thinks Brexit is a good idea. Are you famous? Do tell if we have seen you speak on TV. I assume you used a different tone to your posts here. though. 

As for international trade deals, the UK agreed the terms of EU treaties, used an opt out from tie to time and agreed the terms of the withdrawal agreement before rushing it through Parliament. Then later, they decided they actually didn't like it, but only once they actually read what it said. I am sure that you agree that is not a particular good way to proceed.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Typically, your comments are sprinkled with unnecessary dismissive and insulting remarks that say more about your contemptuous attitude than anything else.
		
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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 30, 2020)

I find it interesting to speculate if we would have ever joined the EEC, predecessor to the EU, had the question on the 1975 Referendum been "Are you prepared for this to become membership of a Federal State of Europe rather than a Common Market?"

I suspect that the majority of the more vociferous on both sides of this thread were not old enough to have taken part in that vote. I was and certainly can confirm that nothing like that question was  ever asked.

Had it been then maybe the answer then would have been different and this debate would not be taking place.

As I say it can only be speculation but interesting nonetheless.


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## Ethan (Aug 30, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I find it interesting to speculate if we would have ever joined the EEC, predecessor to the EU, had the question on the 1975 Referendum been "Are you prepared for this to become membership of a Federal State of Europe rather than a Common Market?"

I suspect that the majority of the more vociferous on this thread were not old enough to have taken part in that vote. I was and certainly can confirm that nothing like that question was  ever asked.

Had it been then maybe the answer then would have been different and this debate would not be taking place.

As I say it can only be speculation but interesting nonetheless.
		
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But it would have been a false question as we never joined, nor will there ever be, a Federal Europe.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 30, 2020)

Ethan said:



			But it would have been a false question as we never joined, nor will there ever be, a Federal Europe.
		
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We certainly never voted to join the EU in its present form. 

Many would argue that what the majority voted to leave was fast becoming a Federal Europe in everything but name.

The ECJ, European foreign policy amongst others were not then part of the question.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 30, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I find it interesting to speculate if we would have ever joined the EEC, predecessor to the EU, had the question on the 1975 Referendum been "Are you prepared for this to become membership of a Federal State of Europe rather than a Common Market?"

I suspect that the majority of the more vociferous on this thread were not old enough to have taken part in that vote. I was and certainly can confirm that nothing like that question was  ever asked.

Had it been then maybe the answer then would have been different and this debate would not be taking place.

As I say it can only be speculation but interesting nonetheless.
		
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You could also speculate that in another 40-50 years the question we were asked in 2016 may be looked at in the same way.

No I wasn’t old enough to vote in 1975, but the World and Europe has changed massively since then, probably as much as it will change again in the next 41 years in ways none of us can envisage.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			You could also speculate that in another 40-50 years the question we were asked in 2016 may be looked at in the same way.

No I wasn’t old enough to vote in 1975, but the World and Europe has changed massively since then, probably as much as it will change again in the next 41 years in ways none of us can envisage.
		
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I agree Paul but I do wonder if any other issue of such major importance will have evolved quite so far from its original specification.

FWIW I voted in favour of Europe on both occasions but definitely had more doubts in 2016 than I did in 1975.


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## chrisd (Aug 30, 2020)

We voted to join the Common Market nothing more,  nothing less. There was no talk of a federal Europe, a European Army , laws made in the EU etc etc


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 30, 2020)

chrisd said:



			We voted to join the Common Market nothing more,  nothing less. There was no talk of a federal Europe, a European Army , laws made in the EU etc etc
		
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Europe evolved mate, it evolved to a place nearly half of those that voted in 2016 were happy with, the vote could of easily gone against us and we would be still unhappy.

However, we now look (hopefully) with optimism and believe in the next 41 years we’ll have been proved right in helping to get us out of the EU.

The biggest hurdle is we now have to trust the 652 MP’s to make it happen and make it a success.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 30, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			I agree Paul but I do wonder if any other issue of such major importance will have evolved quite so far from its original specification.

FWIW I voted in favour of Europe on both occasions but definitely had more doubts in 2016 than I did in 1975.
		
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Again though mate, I think the debate at the time was realistic and nobody could of known what it would become and as I replied to Chris, we should recognise this time just how close it was to a majority saying they were content on what it had become.


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## chrisd (Aug 30, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Europe evolved mate, it evolved to a place nearly half of those that voted in 2016 were happy with, the vote could of easily gone against us and we would be still unhappy.

However, we now look (hopefully) with optimism and believe in the next 41 years we’ll have been proved right in helping to get us out of the EU.

The biggest hurdle is we now have to trust the 652 MP’s to make it happen and make it a success.
		
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Had we, back then, had realised how much we were going to be shafted by the EU then I'm certain we would have never voted to join


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## drdel (Aug 30, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Had we, back then, had realised how much we were going to be shafted by the EU then I'm certain we would have never voted to join
		
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Most historians have concluded that Ted Heath was rather economic with the truth.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 30, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Had we, back then, had realised how much we were going to be shafted by the EU then I'm certain we would have never voted to join
		
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Hindsight though mate, surely that’s the fear going forward......fast forward 40 years and you could have people saying “Had we, back then, had realised how much better off we’d of been staying in the EU then I'm certain we would have never voted to leave”

It might take a generation for us to know for sure.


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## chrisd (Aug 30, 2020)

drdel said:



			Most historians have concluded that Ted Heath was rather economic with the truth.
		
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I don't doubt that but we cant have known that but the Common Market was nothing more than a trading bloc as far as I recall at the time




pauldj42 said:



			Hindsight though mate, surely that’s the fear going forward......fast forward 40 years and you could have people saying “Had we, back then, had realised how much better off we’d of been staying in the EU then I'm certain we would have never voted to leave”

It might take a generation for us to know for sure.
		
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Might be Paul, but the truth is you can never know what would have been when you go down a different road


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## Ethan (Aug 30, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			We certainly never voted to join the EU in its present form.

Many would argue that what the majority voted to leave was fast becoming a Federal Europe in everything but name.

The ECJ, European foreign policy amongst others were not then part of the question.
		
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Many might argue that, but the same people would also argue that the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU, that a load of countries would be queueing up to do deals and we would continue to enjoy the benefits of the single market without actuating being in it, and therefore be wrong on all of those too. 

If you want to see a Federal system, look at the US. The EU is nothing like that and anyone in the UK who thinks their national identity has been eroded must have had a pretty weak or confused identity in the first place. I am from Northern Ireland and it is perfectly possible to be Northern Irish, British, Irish and European at the same time. 

The ECJ was part of EEC/EU membership and was ratified by the UK Parliament.


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## Foxholer (Aug 30, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Had we, back then, had realised how much we were going to be shafted by the EU then I'm certain we would have never voted to join
		
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It wasn't joining the EEC that was the 'telling' vote, though it was the only one where the public was asked their opinion (by referendum). It was John Major's commitment, through Parliament only, to agree to accept the Maastricht Treaty - and the subsequent inclusion (and funding) of ex-Soviet states that has brought about almost all of the 'trouble' from UK's pov!


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## chrisd (Aug 30, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			It wasn't joining the EEC that was the 'telling' vote, though it was the only one where the public was asked their opinion (by referendum). It was John Major's commitment, through Parliament only, to agree to accept the Maastricht Treaty - and the subsequent inclusion (and funding) of ex-Soviet states that has brought about almost all of the 'trouble' from UK's pov!
		
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Thanks for the history lesson of times that I lived through and experienced first hand 👍


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## Foxholer (Aug 30, 2020)

Ethan said:



			..
If you want to see a Federal system, look at the US...
		
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Or Canada!


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## Kaz (Aug 30, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Thanks for the history lesson of times that I lived through and experienced first hand 👍
		
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I don't think that criteria leaves much that we are allowed to post about.


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## Foxholer (Aug 30, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Thanks for the history lesson of times that I lived through and experienced first hand 👍
		
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Well, given that you refer to 'the EU' when it didn't even exist then, your recollection would seem rather poor!
Btw. I also lived through those/experienced the uncertainty of both those times - but as an 'affected observer'! I thought the EEC decision was absolutely the right thing for UK! But, as an affected, therefore somewhat biased, observer of Major's action, I was not so certain. It did, however, commit NZ to reduce its significant (massive) dependence on UK through broadening its markets.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 30, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Many might argue that, but the same people would also argue that the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU, that a load of countries would be queueing up to do deals and we would continue to enjoy the benefits of the single market without actuating being in it, and therefore be wrong on all of those too.

If you want to see a Federal system, look at the US. The EU is nothing like that and anyone in the UK who thinks their national identity has been eroded must have had a pretty weak or confused identity in the first place. I am from Northern Ireland and it is perfectly possible to be Northern Irish, British, Irish and European at the same time.

The ECJ was part of EEC/EU membership and was ratified by the UK Parliament.
		
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But the extent of its powers  which have grown  was never explained in advance of the 1975 referendum.

As far as I can see national identity is not under discussion   for me it is far too abstract a concept to be an issue.

As for the growth of federalism, I know that you are very keen on literal definitions and,therefore,  suggest you look at the definition of the word federation and then tell me that is not an accurate representation of the direction of the EU.

And please do try to not patronise others who might actually have rather more personal experience of the earlier events.


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## chrisd (Aug 30, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Well, given that you refer to 'the EU' when it didn't even exist then, your recollection would seem rather poor!
.
		
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I think I referred to the EU in the context of what tt became after we had joined the Common Market


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## SocketRocket (Aug 30, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Many might argue that, but the same people would also argue that the EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU, that a load of countries would be queueing up to do deals and we would continue to enjoy the benefits of the single market without actuating being in it, and therefore be wrong on all of those too.

If you want to see a Federal system, look at the US. The EU is nothing like that and anyone in the UK who thinks their national identity has been eroded must have had a pretty weak or confused identity in the first place. I am from Northern Ireland and it is perfectly possible to be Northern Irish, British, Irish and European at the same time.

The ECJ was part of EEC/EU membership and was ratified by the UK Parliament.
		
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 You are correct to look to the USA to see a federal state and it shows exactly the direction the EU executive are working to create in Europe.  

Why do remainers keep making the pretence that suggests all trade with the EU is under threat if we leave without a free trade agreement. Trade will continue much as before, there may be some small balances in various goods but the tariffs would fairly well cancel each other, also there would be additional trade opportunities with other countries, many with lower prices.   We are talking about a change in trading arrangements not the end of life as we know it.


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## Ethan (Aug 31, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			But the extent of its powers  which have grown  was never explained in advance of the 1975 referendum.

As far as I can see national identity is not under discussion   for me it is far too abstract a concept to be an issue.

As for the growth of federalism, I know that you are very keen on literal definitions and,therefore,  suggest you look at the definition of the word federation and then tell me that is not an accurate representation of the direction of the EU.

And please do try to not patronise others who might actually have rather more personal experience of the earlier events.
		
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How did I patronise you? What is your more personal experience? How do you know it is any more informed than anyone else?. Do enlighten us.

As for national identity, it is very much at the heart of Brexit, in the form of a crude animosity towards people perceived as foreigners, whether EU or not. I doubt all the people who voted for it in Farage hotspots are students of federal structures or the future economic prospects for large trade blocs.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			How did I patronise you? What is your more personal experience? How do you know it is any more informed than anyone else?. Do enlighten us.

As for national identity, it is very much at the heart of Brexit, in the form of a crude animosity towards people perceived as foreigners, whether EU or not. I doubt all the people who voted for it in Farage hotspots are students of federal structures or the future economic prospects for large trade blocs.
		
Click to expand...

Did you vote in the '75 referendum, were you even old enough to vote?

Did you consider the arguments for and against?

The editorial content of the press of the day?

My original post claims no greater wisdom on the part of those of us who did, merely the knowledge of what was said at the time. 

As for national identity I can only say that as a keen Remainer I engaged in many debates with those of a Leave persuasion but never once encountered the xenophobia and racism you describe. 

But then I am basing this on personal experience  rather than the media which just might be slanted.


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## Ethan (Aug 31, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Did you vote in the '75 referendum, were you even old enough to vote?

Did you consider the arguments for and against?

The editorial content of the press of the day?

My original post claims no greater wisdom on the part of those of us who did, merely the knowledge of what was said at the time.

As for national identity I can only say that as a keen Remainer I engaged in many debates with those of a Leave persuasion but never once encountered the xenophobia and racism you describe.

But then I am basing this on personal experience  rather than the media which just might be slanted.
		
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No, I wasn't old enough to vote then. I did A level history, but wasn't old enough to remember WW1 or The Irish Famine either, but I think I am able to find out about them. 1975 is not exactly medieval history. There is plenty of material around about what was said and promised at the time. The central premise of your issue seems to be that the EEC/EU has evolved, and you were not told about this in 1975. But it should have been obvious that every institution evolves, and it is impossible to hold another referendum every step of the way. Ted Heath knew it would evolve but wanted to influence that evolution.

In any case, I don't accept the argument that everything is pinned to what happened on 1975. That was an event, then things moved on and needed to be considered separately and in their own context. 

Personal experience and recollection can be slanted too, by the way.

If you deny that xenophobia and racism was not part of Brexit, then I don't know what planet your debates occurred on.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 31, 2020)

What issue do I have?

My OP was purely a question for speculation on what might have been the result in 1975 had the electorate had the knowledge we now have.

As for my debates I can assure you that they were with people and not based upon second hand reports.


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## Ethan (Aug 31, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			What issue do I have?

My OP was purely a question for speculation on what might have been the result in 1975 had the electorate had the knowledge we now have.

As for my debates I can assure you that they were with people and not based upon second hand reports.
		
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The issue is the idea that the future oath of the EU was not spelt out to voters in 1975. 

You may place too much importance on your faith that your recollection of other people's opinions, and whether those opinions were representative and informed. I think describing the written history and journalism of the time as a second hand reports is a bit dismissive. 

OK, shall we call a halt here?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The issue is the idea that the future oath of the EU was not spelt out to voters in 1975.

You may place too much importance on your faith that your recollection of other people's opinions, and whether those opinions were representative and informed. I think describing the written history and journalism of the time as a second hand reports is a bit dismissive.

OK, shall we call a halt here?
		
Click to expand...

Happy to call a halt, although I didn't see this as an argument. 

I still haven't heard from anyone, either there or not, if they think the result in 1975 would have been any different if we had all been blessed with a crystal ball.


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## drdel (Aug 31, 2020)

Might be worth, briefly, recalling history...

The 'Common Market' was set up to help Germany recover from WW2 by protecting its steel and coal industries. It evolved as a protectionist market as the EC as membership expanded.

Heath tried to reform from within; usually blocked by France. Cameron's attempt at reforms were blocked and the UK was seen as a difficult but economically necessary member as the EU expanded East with members that need financial support.

A referendum was held and the majority in the democracy of the UK decided we should leave to EU.

An election was held where the core issues centred around the result of the earlier referendum.. The election gave a very large margin to the Party campaigning that the Brexit result should be honoured.

The UK legally ceased to be a member of the EU by a majority vote in Parliament.

The UK is negotiating how our relationship, as a sovereign, will evolve NOT end!

The EU have economic structural issues and has recently broken it's own rule to increase borrowing and future Budget. The debt will be illegally held by ECB and liability will be variously allocated to members by the 'centre'.

Verhofstadt has campaigned for increased federalisation since 2005 and Marcon is advocating similar expansion of powers over member's taxation and defence policies.

Several EU member are federations.

Perhaps we might look to the future and stop bemoaning what has transpired and look to take advantage of the UK's position as the 5th/6th largest world economy. It seems other countries across the world have more respect for us than we do ourselves.


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## Ethan (Aug 31, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Happy to call a halt, although I didn't see this as an argument.

I still haven't heard from anyone, either there or not, if they think the result in 1975 would have been any different if we had all been blessed with a crystal ball.
		
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Its not an argument, but is becoming a circular discussion. 

I am sure the result would not have been different. Aside from a few Eurosceptic Tory MPs, joining the then EEC was a no brainer which has brought a few headaches but mostly excellent economics, and since then Europe was not a big issue for the vast majority of Brits until they were told it should be by others with their own agendas.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Its not an argument, but is becoming a circular discussion.

I am sure the result would not have been different. Aside from a few Eurosceptic Tory MPs, joining the then EEC was a no brainer which has brought a few headaches but mostly excellent economics, and since then Europe was not a big issue for the vast majority of Brits until they were told it should be by others with their own agendas.
		
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Would never have described Anthony Wedgwood Benn as a Eurosceptic Tory.


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## Ethan (Aug 31, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			Would never have described Anthony Wedgwood Benn as a Eurosceptic Tory.
		
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Indeed. There is a small faction of the left who think the EU is a capitalist plot, but all the political momentum for Brexit was driven by the Tory Eurosceptic wing and fears of votes drifting to Führage. The referendum was a sop to placate them.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Indeed. There is a small faction of the left who think the EU is a capitalist plot, but all the political momentum for Brexit was driven by the Tory Eurosceptic wing and fears of votes drifting to Führage. The referendum was a sop to placate them.
		
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The Labour Party's strength of support for Remain in 2016 was weakened by Corbyn's personal Euroscepticism.

Couple that with the Tory leadership's complacency and perhaps the Leave result is not surprising.


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## Ethan (Aug 31, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			The Labour Party's strength of support for Remain in 2016 was weakened by Corbyn's personal Euroscepticism.

Couple that with the Tory leadership's complacency and perhaps the Leave result is not surprising.
		
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Agreed.


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## robinthehood (Aug 31, 2020)

Are we excited about a US trade deal and access to all the lovely sub standard food and the lowering of standards that it will bring.
Can chicken get any cheaper?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Are we excited about a US trade deal and access to all the lovely sub standard food and the lowering of standards that it will bring.
Can chicken get any cheaper?
		
Click to expand...

The US are our single biggest trading country and one that we trade with at a surplus.   We already buy a lot from them and we will have the opportunity do so at lower prices.  Have you spent any time in the US?  I have fami,y there and visit often, I've also ran an office over there, the food has always been very good and I've never had problems with it, none of my Sons family are getting ill with food poisoning but I've had some very dodgy food in the UK and in Europe over the years.   This is another remainer scare story.


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## chrisd (Aug 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I am sure the result would not have been different. Aside from a few Eurosceptic Tory MPs, joining the then EEC was a no brainer which has brought a few headaches but mostly excellent economics, and since then Europe was not a big issue for the vast majority of Brits until they were told it should be by others with their own agendas.
		
Click to expand...


I can assure you having been there and seen the manifesto for joining, it would definitely have been a different outcome had we, the voter, known how the Common Market was going to evolve into the mess that it is now. All of the promotion for joining was based on tariff free agreements and easier trade amongst the members,  I remember little else but for the benefits of trade being mentioned. There was no suggestion that poor ex communist countries would join, that it would be run by unelected bueracrats, that laws would be made outside of Parliament and we'd have to obey an ECJ, that there would be an EU army, an EU Chancellor who could override parliaments, an EU currency and free movement of people etc etc 

Had we known then what we know now it's clear to me that we wouldn't have joined, given that what we know now has persuaded the majority to want to leave the EU


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 31, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Are we excited about a US trade deal and access to all the lovely sub standard food and the lowering of standards that it will bring.
Can chicken get any cheaper?
		
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The joys of a free country; if you don't like American chicken, don't buy it.  No-one's forcing you.


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## chrisd (Aug 31, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Are we excited about a US trade deal and access to all the lovely sub standard food and the lowering of standards that it will bring.
Can chicken get any cheaper?
		
Click to expand...

When I've been to the US the standard of food has generally been as good as anywhere else in the world I've travelled


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## Ethan (Aug 31, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I can assure you having been there and seen the manifesto for joining, it would definitely have been a different outcome had we, the voter, known how the Common Market was going to evolve into the mess that it is now. All of the promotion for joining was based on tariff free agreements and easier trade amongst the members,  I remember little else but for the benefits of trade being mentioned. There was no suggestion that poor ex communist countries would join, that it would be run by unelected bueracrats, that laws would be made outside of Parliament and we'd have to obey an ECJ, that there would be an EU army, an EU Chancellor who could override parliaments, an EU currency and free movement of people etc etc

Had we known then what we know now it's clear to me that we wouldn't have joined, given that what we know now has persuaded the majority to want to leave the EU
		
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Ah, so you would have voted against had only you known it would lead to the ability to work and live anywhere in the EU, international car companies headquartering in the U.K., improved consumer laws, improved net security laws, the EMA being located here, better rights for workers and a strong flexible economy?

The line about unelected bureaucrats is somewhat weakened when Dominic Cummings is running the country and he gets his minion to appoint a load of unelected loyalists to the Lords. The U.K. Parliament has opposed very few EU regulations.

And there is no EU Army.

By the same token, presumably would not have voted for Brexit if they had known it would not lead to trade deals in an afternoon, countries queuing up to do them, the same benefits of being in while being out, and extra money for the NHS?


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## chrisd (Aug 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Ah, so you would have voted against had only you known it would lead to the ability to work and live anywhere in the EU, international car companies headquartering in the U.K., improved consumer laws, improved net security laws, the EMA being located here, better rights for workers and a strong flexible economy?

The line about unelected bureaucrats is somewhat weakened when Dominic Cummings is running the country and he gets his minion to appoint a load of unelected loyalists to the Lords. The U.K. Parliament has opposed very few EU regulations.

And there is no EU Army.

By the same token, presumably would not have voted for Brexit if they had known it would not lead to trade deals in an afternoon, countries queuing up to do them, the same benefits of being in while being out, and extra money for the NHS?
		
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No, I would have voted against for the reasons that the majority of voters did in 2016

Dominic Cummings does not run the country 

The ECJ has ruled against the UK a high percentage of times

There will be a EU army in time, it's what they want

I voted with my heart and long term knowledge in order to free people from the clutches of the EU and one day you will realise it was for the best


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## Kellfire (Aug 31, 2020)

chrisd said:



			No, I would have voted against for the reasons that the majority of voters did in 2016

Dominic Cummings does not run the country

The ECJ has ruled against the UK a high percentage of times

There will be a EU army in time, it's what they want

I voted with my heart and long term knowledge in order to free people from the clutches of the EU and one day you will realise it was for the best
		
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 In a world where an army is sadly necessary (although we often are the instigators), a larger army with multinational scope is clearly an advantage. That’s one of the most baffling things that people who voted for Brexit oppose.


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## chrisd (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			In a world where an army is sadly necessary (although we often are the instigators), a larger army with multinational scope is clearly an advantage. That’s one of the most baffling things that people who voted for Brexit oppose.
		
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I dont see what's baffling about an army, with our troops, being run by the EU and consisting of soldiers from various countries who have rarely have taken part in conflicts around the world given that their leaders dont allow it. I think id rather we stick with NATO and the US


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## Kellfire (Aug 31, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I dont see what's baffling about an army, with our troops, being run by the EU and consisting of soldiers from various countries who have rarely have taken part in conflicts around the world given that their leaders dont allow it.
		
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So what you’re saying is that having lots of less blood and resource hungry nations able to influence the actions of our army so that we’d take part in less conflicts across the world is a bad thing?


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## chrisd (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			So what you’re saying is that having lots of less blood and resource hungry nations able to influence the actions of our army so that we’d take part in less conflicts across the world is a bad thing?
		
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I dont recall saying that


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## Kellfire (Aug 31, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I dont recall saying that
		
Click to expand...

Ah, so you now do agree that an EU army with no unilateral ability to wage war indiscriminately is a good thing?


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			In a world where an army is sadly necessary (although we often are the instigators), a larger army with multinational scope is clearly an advantage. That’s one of the most baffling things that people who voted for Brexit oppose.
		
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Great idea!   We could call it NATO


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## chrisd (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Ah, so you now do agree that an EU army with no unilateral ability to wage war indiscriminately is a good thing?
		
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I don't recall saying that


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## Kellfire (Aug 31, 2020)

chrisd said:



			I don't recall saying that
		
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You don’t say much, do you? You seem to be “EU BAD, BRITAIN GOOD” yet fail to recognise the obvious benefits of the EU.


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## Kellfire (Aug 31, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Great idea!   We could call it NATO
		
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You don’t know what NATO is, do you?


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## chrisd (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			You don’t say much, do you? You seem to be “EU BAD, BRITAIN GOOD” yet fail to recognise the obvious benefits of the EU.
		
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I didnt say that.

But I do believe that Britain will be fine outside of the EU and I dont doubt any obvious benefits of the EU, but if the bad outweighs the good and we cant pick and choose what we want then I'm content to go our own way


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## robinthehood (Aug 31, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The US are our single biggest trading country and one that we trade with at a surplus.   We already buy a lot from them and we will have the opportunity do so at lower prices.  Have you spent any time in the US?  I have fami,y there and visit often, I've also ran an office over there, the food has always been very good and I've never had problems with it, none of my Sons family are getting ill with food poisoning but I've had some very dodgy food in the UK and in Europe over the years.   This is another remainer scare story.
		
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I'm far more  concerned about the environmental impact as our farmers have to compete with US imports than whether you've had food poisoning.


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## Doon frae Troon (Aug 31, 2020)

I see this months new Scots Tory leader DRoss has come out against chlorinated chicken.
Strange one that, as only last month he voted for and supported it.


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## Ethan (Aug 31, 2020)

chrisd said:



			No, I would have voted against for the reasons that the majority of voters did in 2016

Dominic Cummings does not run the country

The ECJ has ruled against the UK a high percentage of times

There will be a EU army in time, it's what they want

I voted with my heart and long term knowledge in order to free people from the clutches of the EU and one day you will realise it was for the best
		
Click to expand...

Dominic Cummings provides much of the strategy for Johnson. You don't actually think Johnson develop this own ideas. He is a cypher at best. 

I said that the UK Parliament has agreed the great majority of EU regulations put before it. True or false?

The UK wins a higher percentage of cases before the ECJ than most other European countries. It is in the nature of being taken to the ECJ that you lose more than you win, they don't take them unless they think it is likely. Some of these cases also confer benefits to UK citizens that its Govt tried to keep from them. 

The UK's departure makes an EU Army more likely, but it is still rather unlikely, in my opinion. 

"Free people from the clutches". Christ, that sort of hyperbolic political frottism is exactly the problem with Brexit. I will never agree it was for the best.


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## chrisd (Aug 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I will never agree it was for the best.
		
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Fine, we'll leave it there then.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Are we excited about a US trade deal and access to all the lovely sub standard food and the lowering of standards that it will bring.
Can chicken get any cheaper?
		
Click to expand...




robinthehood said:



			I'm far more  concerned about the environmental impact as our farmers have to compete with US imports than whether you've had food poisoning.
		
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That's not what you said.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			You don’t know what NATO is, do you?
		
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Yes, I do, its the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, also called the North Atlantic Alliance, an intergovernmental military alliance between 30 North American and European countries


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## robinthehood (Aug 31, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			That's not what you said.
		
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I'm saying it now in response to.you........


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## Kellfire (Aug 31, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, I do.
		
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You don’t but I’ll remind you something it isn’t which you seem to think it is - it’s not a combined army made up of EU states.


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## Ethan (Aug 31, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Fine, we'll leave it there then.
		
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Cool. Don't let facts ruin your delusion.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			You don’t but I’ll remind you something it isn’t which you seem to think it is - it’s not a combined army made up of EU states.
		
Click to expand...

Its the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, also called the North Atlantic Alliance, is an intergovernmental military alliance between 30 North American and European countries and I think you will find that includes European States.

You said:


Kellfire said:



			In a world where an army is sadly necessary (although we often are the instigators), a larger army with multinational scope is clearly an advantage. That’s one of the most baffling things that people who voted for Brexit oppose.
		
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Does NATO not fit that brief?


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## Old Skier (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			You don’t know what NATO is, do you?
		
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Give us the benefit of your knowledge.


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## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2020)

Foxholer said:





Kellfire said:



			You believe people who hold left wing views are more likely to be racist and sexist?
		
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You are, perhaps deliberately, misinterpreting my post!...
		
Click to expand...




chrisd said:





Kellfire said:



			So what you’re saying is that having lots of less blood and resource hungry nations able to influence the actions of our army so that we’d take part in less conflicts across the world is a bad thing?
		
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I dont recall saying that
		
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chrisd said:





Kellfire said:



			Ah, so you now do agree that an EU army with no unilateral ability to wage war indiscriminately is a good thing?
		
Click to expand...

I didnt say that....
		
Click to expand...




chrisd said:





Kellfire said:



			You don’t say much, do you? You seem to be “EU BAD, BRITAIN GOOD” yet fail to recognise the obvious benefits of the EU.
		
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I didnt say that...
		
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@Kelfire There's a distinct pattern here! Either you can't read/understand very well or you are deliberately misinterpreting posts. Neither option serves you well!


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## banjofred (Aug 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Cool. Don't let facts ruin your delusion.
		
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I'm* hoping* he will let you get the last word to make you feel better......


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## banjofred (Aug 31, 2020)

What I know.....
1. Brexit may not work very well....
2. Brexit might work really well....
3. Likely some place in the middle.....which will piss both sides off.....


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## Ethan (Aug 31, 2020)

banjofred said:



			I'm* hoping* he will let you get the last word to make you feel better......
		
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Don't mind really, more a response to his unwillingness to refute the points i made. 

You feel free to have the last word, with or without bold or capitals as you wish.


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## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2020)

Just remember 'the last word is 'Zzzzz'!


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## chrisd (Aug 31, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Cool. Don't let facts ruin your delusion.
		
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Or your drivel ruin the truth


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			You don’t say much, do you? You seem to be “EU BAD, BRITAIN GOOD” yet fail to recognise the obvious benefits of the EU.
		
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What about the obvious disadvantages?


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## chrisd (Aug 31, 2020)

banjofred said:



			What I know.....
1. Brexit may not work very well....
2. Brexit might work really well....
3. Likely some place in the middle.....which will piss both sides off.....
		
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You may well be right, but I dont believe its necessarily about the immediate short term, it's about the longer term future and in years to come it'll be impossible to compare what the outcome we end up with would be to, if we had stayed in


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## Kellfire (Aug 31, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Its the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, also called the North Atlantic Alliance, is an intergovernmental military alliance between 30 North American and European countries and I think you will find that includes European States.

You said:

Does NATO not fit that brief?
		
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No.


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## Kellfire (Aug 31, 2020)

drive4show said:



			What about the obvious disadvantages?
		
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Too many damn foreigners taking our jobs and women?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Too many damn foreigners taking our jobs and women?
		
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Pathetic trolling, I'm sure you can do better than that.


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## Kellfire (Aug 31, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			@Kelfire There's a distinct pattern here! Either you can't read/understand very well or you are deliberately misinterpreting posts. Neither option serves you well!
		
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The pattern is that people skirt around their core values because they know saying them outright paints them in a bad light. You know it. I know it. We all know it. But it’s the political dance we play these days. Right wingers are so staunch in their views but embarrassed to explain them. It says a lot.


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## Kellfire (Aug 31, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Pathetic trolling, I'm sure you can do better than that.
		
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I asked a question. Don’t be so defensive.


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## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			The pattern is that people skirt around their core values because they know saying them outright paints them in a bad light. You know it. I know it. We all know it. But it’s the political dance we play these days. Right wingers are so staunch in their views but embarrassed to explain them. It says a lot.
		
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What utter twaddle!


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## chrisd (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			The pattern is that people skirt around their core values because they know saying them outright paints them in a bad light. You know it. I know it. We all know it. But it’s the political dance we play these days. Right wingers are so staunch in their views but embarrassed to explain them. It says a lot.
		
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Perhaps you'd be good enough to tell us what they are


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## Old Skier (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			I asked a question. Don’t be so defensive.
		
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So did I but you didn’t bother to answer


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## Old Skier (Aug 31, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Perhaps you'd be good enough to tell us what they are
		
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Momentum  - good
centralist.    - bad
right wing.   - racist

simple


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## chrisd (Aug 31, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Momentum  - good
centralist.    - bad
right wing.   - racist

simple
		
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I know, but as Kellfire knows everything I wanted to hear it from him 😁


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## robinthehood (Aug 31, 2020)

My daughters new passport is blue. Brexit  win!


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			No.
		
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Oh well, thanks for the persuasive arguement, convinced me 🙄


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			My daughters new passport is blue. Brexit  win!
		
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Not all bad then 👍🏽


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## robinthehood (Aug 31, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Not all bad then 👍🏽
		
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Well worth it.


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## Foxholer (Aug 31, 2020)

Kellfire said:





SocketRocket said:



			...
Does NATO* not* fit that brief?
		
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*No*.
		
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Or should that be 'Yes'?!
Ambiguity Rules OK!


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## ColchesterFC (Aug 31, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Ambiguity Rules OK! 

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And dyslexia Lures KO!!!!!


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Well worth it.
		
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Every penny.


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## robinthehood (Aug 31, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			Every penny.
		
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Yep, designed in France and made in Poland.


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## SocketRocket (Aug 31, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			Yep, designed in France and made in Poland.
		
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Well theres a success story for globalisation.


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## drdel (Sep 2, 2020)

I see Michele Barnier is demanding that the UK compromises. If you have requirements that are not going to be met why change your principles?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 2, 2020)

drdel said:



			I see Michele Barnier is demanding that the UK compromises. If you have requirements that are not going to be met why change your principles?
		
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So his form of compromise is that we accept his requirements but he doesn't accept ours.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 2, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			So his form of compromise is that we accept his requirements but he doesn't accept ours.
		
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It’s ‘his’ single market...He can ask for whatever he wants. We can decide whether we want it enough.


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## PNWokingham (Sep 2, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s ‘his’ single market...He can ask for whatever he wants. We can decide whether we want it enough.
		
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ah, so it is only a one way deal for us to enter their market, nothing about them entering ours?


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It’s ‘his’ single market...He can ask for whatever he wants. We can decide whether we want it enough.
		
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PNWokingham said:



			ah, so it is only a one way deal for us to enter their market, nothing about them entering ours?
		
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Of course it is; SILH didn't want to leave so will support remaining by any method possible.  He completely misses the point that it is precisely because of behaviour like this by Barnier that a number of Leave voters voted the way that they did.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			ah, so it is only a one way deal for us to enter their market, nothing about them entering ours?
		
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Indeed - it is a two-way street.  They can decide whether or not they want access to our market, whether they want to accede to our requirements and demands.

But there is absolutely no point in us complaining about EU obstruction, intransigence or unreasonable demands.  Because we knew what we were getting in to when we decided to leave, and then try an negotiate having pretty much the same access to the EU's single market as we had before we left.  We knew.  Or at least some of us knew.  The rest of us were told.  Many of us believed.

And some here really must get over this bizarre idea that some or many who voted to remain continue to hold on to hope that the UK won't leave.  WE HAVE LEFT.  Get over it.  Most remain voters have.


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## chrisd (Sep 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And some here really must get over this bizarre idea that some or many who voted to remain continue to hold on to hope that the UK won't leave.  WE HAVE LEFT.  Get over it.  Most remain voters have.
		
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All us who voted to leave have remained happy since the day after the vote. WE KNOW WE'VE LEFT. Nothing to get over. Couldn't give a stuff whether Remainers have or not 😁


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2020)

chrisd said:



			All us who voted to leave have remained happy since the day after the vote. WE KNOW WE'VE LEFT. Nothing to get over. Couldn't give a stuff whether Remainers have or not 😁
		
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Well maybe some can stop yabbering on about remain voters still hoping the UK won't leave.  When we already have...


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## chrisd (Sep 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well maybe some can stop yabbering on about remain voters still hoping the UK won't leave.  When we already have...
		
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........ and maybe some who've prattled on for years about leave voters, and been insulting about them, could just wither away and realise that we know that we've already left cos we're not as stupid as you told us we were.


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## drdel (Sep 3, 2020)

It does amuse me that Barnier talks as if a 'No Deal' is the end of relations between the EU and the UK and consequently that gives him/EU the right to _demand_ a share of UK assets and control UK trade and Banking policies.

The UK has offered an arrangement based on fish stock levels that are periodically reviewed. But he says we must continue to the current systems to protect EU:  the jobs that were largely taken from the North East and Scotland or be threatened with 'No Deal' - well that will keep the EU fishermen happy!

Trade in goods may/may not carry taxes, the flow may/may not reduce dependent upon competitiveness (either way).

Security data sharing will continue much as before as it does with many other Nations.

NATO will still exist.

Travel will still happen as it does around the world; perhaps with visas perhaps not. Minor delays possibly but with air travel at a reduced rate due to COVID 19 now is the best time for systems to be revised: if necessary.

Banking and investment will be OK; new/modified 'passporting' systems may be needed.

Bear in mind that the EU rules demand that negotiations are conducted in a mutually respectful manner 

Its a repeat of the Greek debacle and the treatment of PM May. Even Putin can see the paper tiger that is Merkel's/EU threat over the 'poisoning'.

I anyone was in doubt over the 'result' they should have no qualms now.


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## PNWokingham (Sep 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - it is a two-way street.  They can decide whether or not they want access to our market, whether they want to accede to our requirements and demands.

But there is absolutely no point in us complaining about EU obstruction, intransigence or unreasonable demands.  Because we knew what we were getting in to when we decided to leave, and then try an negotiate having pretty much the same access to the EU's single market as we had before we left.  We knew.  Or at least some of us knew.  The rest of us were told.  Many of us believed.

And some here really must get over this bizarre idea that some or many who voted to remain continue to hold on to hope that the UK won't leave.  WE HAVE LEFT.  Get over it.  Most remain voters have.
		
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what utter bitter waffle. We left. We negotiate a free trade deal - infact we chose one of the options the EU offered. The EU backtrack on that and demand we have to be more aligned than other countries would ever agree to. They are being for more stubborn and intractrangible than we are - our red lines are the same as any other country in a trade negotiation - theirs are not!!!.

We are not asking for the same access as before, we are asking for a trade deal similar to Canada. Wake up and see the logic and stop jumping on the EU side


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			what utter bitter waffle. We left. We negotiate a free trade deal - infact we chose one of the options the EU offered. The EU backtrack on that and demand we have to be more aligned than other countries would ever agree to. They are being for more stubborn and intractrangible than we are - our red lines are the same as any other country in a trade negotiation - theirs are not!!!.

We are not asking for the same access as before, we are asking for a trade deal similar to Canada. Wake up and see the logic and stop jumping on the EU side
		
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Maybe some just need to stop whinging about the EU and accept the situation we have put ourselves in...and if the EU choose to not agree with us a deal like Canada's, then that is their prerogative.


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## Blue in Munich (Sep 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe some just need to stop whinging about the EU and accept the situation we have put ourselves in...and if the EU choose to not agree with us a deal like Canada's, then that is their prerogative.
		
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The irony of you lecturing others about whinging is simply mind blowing.


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## HomerJSimpson (Sep 3, 2020)

Blue in Munich said:



			The irony of you lecturing others about whinging is simply mind blowing.
		
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Think how much typing he's had to do.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 3, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Think how much typing he's had to do.
		
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From the guy with over 3 times as many posts as him!
🤯🤯🤯


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## chrisd (Sep 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe some just need to stop whinging about the EU and accept the situation we have put ourselves in...and if the EU choose to not agree with us a deal like Canada's, then that is their prerogative.
		
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We haven't "put ourselves in a situation" we Brexiteers are generally happy to leave on WTO terms, it's the EU who are trying to screw us over by not negotiating a deal unless we roll over first. Barnier now saying that we might own the waters around our shoreline but not the fish in it - mmmm surely even you can work out that the EU is getting desperate  😁😁


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## PNWokingham (Sep 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe some just need to stop whinging about the EU and accept the situation we have put ourselves in...and if the EU choose to not agree with us a deal like Canada's, then that is their prerogative.
		
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you are beyond help. We are behind our country in obtaining a trade deal, and what we are asking for is very logical, fair and absolutely a win-win for both sides - of course there will be some wiggle room on details etc but the principals are fair. You are the one whining all the time about rhetoric from the Leave vote - time to give it a break and focus on the facts as they are now and not digging up hot air. You have totally failed to comment on the UK's position in any way other than banging on that the EU can do what it wants - it is like a stuck record!


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## Grant85 (Sep 4, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Indeed - it is a two-way street.  They can decide whether or not they want access to our market, whether they want to accede to our requirements and demands.

But there is absolutely no point in us complaining about EU obstruction, intransigence or unreasonable demands.  Because we knew what we were getting in to when we decided to leave, and then try an negotiate having pretty much the same access to the EU's single market as we had before we left.  We knew.  Or at least some of us knew.  The rest of us were told.  Many of us believed.

And some here really must get over this bizarre idea that some or many who voted to remain continue to hold on to hope that the UK won't leave.  WE HAVE LEFT.  Get over it.  Most remain voters have.
		
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That's fair enough, but democracy didn't stop the day after the referendum, and even going back to the 2019 election, it's tough to extrapolate from that there  was a majority for leave in the country at that polling point. 

We were told this would be the easiest negotiation in the history of international trade deals and the UK would hold all the cards. 

As far as I'm concerned Brexit is a pig in a poke and will either be so damaging that people will start disowning it or watered down to the extent that the leave side will never be satisfied. At the moment, we are heading for the former. 

Ultimately there is no sense in the UK or EU side having huge trade barriers, but obviously how you get to that and still have a Brexit in anything other than name only is a real quandary.


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## drdel (Sep 4, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			That's fair enough, but democracy didn't stop the day after the referendum, and even going back to the 2019 election, it's tough to extrapolate from that there  was a majority for leave in the country at that polling point.

We were told this would be the easiest negotiation in the history of international trade deals and the UK would hold all the cards.

As far as I'm concerned Brexit is a pig in a poke and will either be so damaging that people will start disowning it or watered down to the extent that the leave side will never be satisfied. At the moment, we are heading for the former.

Ultimately there is no sense in the UK or EU side having huge trade barriers, but obviously how you get to that and still have a Brexit in anything other than name only is a real quandary.
		
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In my mind there is no quandry. The growth markets are not in the EU. The UK must be free to deal with the Asia and Commonwealth countries and capture a share of the South American development. We simply cannot afford to be shackled to the debt ridden members and Germany's manufacturing led growth will not continue as it is uncompetitive so it cannot support EU members' debt.

The UK has been a cash cow for the EU which is unsustainable in the modern world economy.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			That's fair enough, but democracy didn't stop the day after the referendum, and even going back to the 2019 election, it's tough to extrapolate from that there  was a majority for leave in the country at that polling point.

We were told this would be the easiest negotiation in the history of international trade deals and the UK would hold all the cards.

As far as I'm concerned Brexit is a pig in a poke and will either be so damaging that people will start disowning it or watered down to the extent that the leave side will never be satisfied. At the moment, we are heading for the former.

Ultimately there is no sense in the UK or EU side having huge trade barriers, but obviously how you get to that and still have a Brexit in anything other than name only is a real quandary.
		
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I keep seeing this 'Easiest deal/negotiation in history'   being quoted as a putdown for Brexit.   Let's get it into the context it was said. Here is a quote on what he said from the Guardian, it's not exactly what you're suggesting:

Liam Fox has said a post-Brexit free trade deal with the EU *should* be the “easiest in human history”, but insisted that the UK could survive without one.

The international trade secretary said: “The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history.


“We are already beginning with zero tariffs, and we are already beginning at the point of maximal regulatory equivalence, as it is called. In other words, our rules and our laws are exactly the same.”
*However, he went on to concede that securing a deal would probably not be easy in practice. “The only reason that we wouldn’t come to a free and open agreement is because politics gets in the way of economics,” Fox said.*


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 4, 2020)

drdel said:



			In my mind there is no quandry. The growth markets are not in the EU. The UK must be free to deal with the Asia and Commonwealth countries and capture a share of the South American development. We simply cannot afford to be shackled to the debt ridden members and Germany's manufacturing led growth will not continue as it is uncompetitive so it cannot support EU members' debt.

The UK has been a cash cow for the EU which is *unsustainable in the modern world economy*.
		
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I'd argue that as seen from the current pandemic, we have fundamental structural issues in our economy, such as an over reliance on service sector, especially hospitality. It's a bit frightening to me what measures we seem to be taking with public health to help the 72 coffee and sandwich shops per square mile in city centres survive. And those issues are probably more urgent to sort out that following the narrative that the EU has/will hold us back.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 4, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			That's fair enough, but democracy didn't stop the day after the referendum, and even going back to the 2019 election, it's tough to extrapolate from that there  was a majority for leave in the country at that polling point.

We were told this would be the easiest negotiation in the history of international trade deals and the UK would hold all the cards.

As far as I'm concerned Brexit is a pig in a poke and will either be so damaging that people will start disowning it or watered down to the extent that the leave side will never be satisfied. At the moment, we are heading for the former.

Ultimately there is no sense in the UK or EU side having huge trade barriers, but obviously how you get to that and still have a Brexit in anything other than name only is a real quandary.
		
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Spot on, the most sensible post on here for months.
I would add that what is left of the Tory party in the rUK will be in the political wilderness for at least a couple of decades.


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## drdel (Sep 4, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Spot on, the most sensible post on here for months.
I would add that what is left of the Tory party in the rUK will be in the political wilderness for at least a couple of decades.
		
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So the EU claims 90% of haddock in Celtic waters with France taking 66%. I guess you would be happy the oil and gas in the Scottish region should be split along the sames lines as a natural resource in UK seas.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2020)

I’m sure as a Leave voter we made the right decision, but I still worry when seeing articles like the one below that we are possibly going to create our own problems by not slowing down a touch and stop insisting on a hard deadline date after the impact Covid has had and continues to have on the world this year

https://news.sky.com/story/amp/brex...emand-urgent-meeting-with-government-12063228


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## Grant85 (Sep 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			I keep seeing this 'Easiest deal/negotiation in history'   being quoted as a putdown for Brexit.   Let's get it into the context it was said. Here is a quote on what he said from the Guardian, it's not exactly what you're suggesting:

Liam Fox has said a post-Brexit free trade deal with the EU *should* be the “easiest in human history”, but insisted that the UK could survive without one.

The international trade secretary said: “The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history.


“We are already beginning with zero tariffs, and we are already beginning at the point of maximal regulatory equivalence, as it is called. In other words, our rules and our laws are exactly the same.”
*However, he went on to concede that securing a deal would probably not be easy in practice. “The only reason that we wouldn’t come to a free and open agreement is because politics gets in the way of economics,” Fox said.*

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The problem is, there is a reason why the EU does not have Free Trade Agreements with the US as well as most of Asia... there is no alignment in regulation and standards.

Obviously the EU still trade with the US, India, China etc. but to pretend that getting FTAs with these places will be easier to negotiate and operate, or better than what we had, is just not being realistic. These things will take years to work out and Britain is a much smaller nation than a lot of Brexiteers seem to believe, meaning they will not hold as many cards as would be optimal.

None of us can truly know the ins and outs of what goes on in these trade negotiations, but I'm fairly sure that an easy EU deal, that Liam Fox was talking about, would effectively mean regulatory alignment, which would restrict what deals could be done with other nations (and effectively waters down Brexit to name only).

A complicated deal with the EU will take 10 years - which is probably the only realistic option to have a Brexit that is beneficial and meaningful. Politically Boris has to avoid that because of what he said to get elected as Tory leader and to get a mandate from the people with his 'oven ready deal'.

I'm just a guy who watches the news and clearly the vast majority of the population don't even do that or try to understand these issues. Which is why it is important that the government are a lot more up front about our options and how difficult they will be in practice to implement. Especially to implement what has been promised. 

Boris clearly didn't go out of his way to advise people that his Oven Ready Deal was just a withdrawal agreement and we still have this period of negotiation, which as things stand, is going to lead to a No deal scenario and possibly hundreds of businesses becoming unviable over night.


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## PieMan (Sep 4, 2020)

FTAs can actually be fairly easy to negotiate as they don't have to be complex. A number of countries have concluded FTAs in a matter of months not years.

Unfortunately the EU does not have a great reputation on how it conducts itself in FTA and other negotiations, especially with those countries that are classed as 'least developed'.


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## PNWokingham (Sep 4, 2020)

PieMan said:



			FTAs can actually be fairly easy to negotiate as they don't have to be complex. A number of countries have concluded FTAs in a matter of months not years.

Unfortunately the EU does not have a great reputation on how it conducts itself in FTA and other negotiations, especially with those countries that are classed as 'least developed'.
		
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well said Paul. And beginning from total uniformity of standards is a perfect starting base. But one side being forced to agree to align to rules made by the other is not and does not make sense for any FTA. There should of course be mutual standards, especially in areas such as animal welfare etc - but that does not mean that both sides have to have the same rulebook that one side controls and enforces. A lot of the benefits of being free from the EU will be in the detail of how things are done - but that does not necessarily mean lower standards. And in relation to other trade deals, do we want chlorinated chicken etc - i don't actually care as long as it is labled as such and the public have a choice. And clearly, if we do get it, it will not be passed on to the EU. And judging from what i have read of state subsidies etc, the EU have much more form on this than the UK, so that smacks as desperation to think we will end up a country that is heavily state sponsored as that is agaisnt the Conservative (at least) principals, and is just another ruse from the EU to cling on to power - and don't forget that they want to make it as hard as possible for us to show to everybody else the futility of leaving the beaurocratic club as it advances on its federalist journey!

I think the odds are now tipped against getting a deal - maybe 60:40 - but would still not rule out a deal at the wire and a fanfare of each side claining a great deal. But for that to happen, the EU has to move more than we will. I have no doubt that fishing has a good deal of flex around a deal more on the UK side of thinking - but will the EU drop the ECJ and agree common minimum standards for different industries and with a shared arbitration process rather than using its own rule book (i.e. the same as any other FTA)? Who knows. The ball is in their court. But if we get a no deal, i expect a big push for free ports, enterprise zones, large tax breaks to lure foreign investment etc - and we will fight the beurocratic EU with greater business incentives. Maybe even borrow a bit of labour's "Green Industrial revolution" and push ahead with great projects like tidal barriers in Cardiff and Swansea and maybe turn the country into a big net exporter of electricity to the EU in 20 years!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			The problem is, there is a reason why the EU does not have Free Trade Agreements with the US as well as most of Asia... there is no alignment in regulation and standards.

Obviously the EU still trade with the US, India, China etc. but to pretend that getting FTAs with these places will be easier to negotiate and operate, or better than what we had, is just not being realistic. These things will take years to work out and Britain is a much smaller nation than a lot of Brexiteers seem to believe, meaning they will not hold as many cards as would be optimal.

None of us can truly know the ins and outs of what goes on in these trade negotiations, but I'm fairly sure that an easy EU deal, that Liam Fox was talking about, would effectively mean regulatory alignment, which would restrict what deals could be done with other nations (and effectively waters down Brexit to name only).

A complicated deal with the EU will take 10 years - which is probably the only realistic option to have a Brexit that is beneficial and meaningful. Politically Boris has to avoid that because of what he said to get elected as Tory leader and to get a mandate from the people with his 'oven ready deal'.

I'm just a guy who watches the news and clearly the vast majority of the population don't even do that or try to understand these issues. Which is why it is important that the government are a lot more up front about our options and how difficult they will be in practice to implement. Especially to implement what has been promised.

Boris clearly didn't go out of his way to advise people that his Oven Ready Deal was just a withdrawal agreement and we still have this period of negotiation, which as things stand, is going to lead to a No deal scenario and possibly hundreds of businesses becoming unviable over night.
		
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There is absolutely no reason for a free trade deal with the EU to take many (10) years, an 'oven ready' deal template is already available in the Canada Deal, the one the EU was pushing for once.  We have almost completed a deal with Japan, that didnt take 10 years.

Deals with India and China are as you say, not currently made with the EU so we wont be any worse off there then. I do find your attitude and that of so many who voted remain so negative and almost a 'Freudenschade' way of thinking.  OK, we will lose some and win some but most people who wanted us out the EU  arnt so naive to believe life will now be all beer and skittles, there were so many reasons why they decided membership wasn't for them.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2020)

PieMan said:



			FTAs can actually be fairly easy to negotiate as they don't have to be complex. A number of countries have concluded FTAs in a matter of months not years.

Unfortunately the EU does not have a great reputation on how it conducts itself in FTA and other negotiations, especially with those countries that are classed as 'least developed'.
		
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I don’t have enough knowledge or experience in these matters to disagree with anything you’ve put.

So, from a “normal bloke” why did WE think it would be any better or different with us? If this awareness is out there, why put ourselves under pressure and “seemingly” keep blaming the EU and Barnier for the problems?


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## PieMan (Sep 4, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			I don’t have enough knowledge or experience in these matters to disagree with anything you’ve put.

So, from a “normal bloke” why did WE think it would be any better or different with us? If this awareness is out there, why put ourselves under pressure and “seemingly” keep blaming the EU and Barnier for the problems?
		
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Because they are the ones that are! PNWokingham has covered a lot of the issues in his last post, but what it boils down to is the EU are scared of having a goods and services powerhouse right on their doorstep.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2020)

PieMan said:



			Because they are the ones that are! PNWokingham has covered a lot of the issues in his last post, but what it boils down to is the EU are scared of having a goods and services powerhouse right on their doorstep.
		
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Sorry mate, but that’s not answered what I asked, PN’s answer is also a lot of whataboutery.

Surely the EU’s job is to look after their members and their interests, I would hope our negotiators are looking after ours.


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## chrisd (Sep 4, 2020)

PieMan said:



			Because they are the ones that are! PNWokingham has covered a lot of the issues in his last post, but what it boils down to is the EU are scared of having a goods and services powerhouse right on their doorstep.
		
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Whether or not they are scared the fact is that they are still going to end up with that scenario anyway. Surely better to do a deal with us and end up with some fishing rights and more harmony rather than a  trade war


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 4, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Whether or not they are scared the fact is that they are still going to end up with that scenario anyway. Surely better to do a deal with us and end up with some fishing rights and more harmony rather than a  trade war
		
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If that’s our position then fine, but a trade war may not be in our best interests either.
We certainly shouldn’t cave in, but we’ve got to be prepared for the worst come 01 Jan.


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## Grant85 (Sep 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			There is absolutely no reason for a free trade deal with the EU to take many (10) years, an 'oven ready' deal template is already available in the Canada Deal, the one the EU was pushing for once.  We have almost completed a deal with Japan, that didnt take 10 years.

Deals with India and China are as you say, not currently made with the EU so we wont be any worse off there then. I do find your attitude and that of so many who voted remain so negative and almost a 'Freudenschade' way of thinking.  OK, we will lose some and win some but most people who wanted us out the EU  arnt so naive to believe life will now be all beer and skittles, there were so many reasons why they decided membership wasn't for them.
		
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Well we are already over 4 years on from the Brexit vote and very limited progress has been made on that front. It took 2.5 years for a withdrawal agreement to be drafted and a further year for the UK to actually sign it. So these things tend to take a long time. 

And ultimately Canada is not the UK. There are many differences, not least that the UK is starting from the position of being a member state and having supply chain, businesses, people and activities already very reliant on regular cross border trade and activity. 

And if it is so simple to replicate the Canada agreement why hasn't this happened already or being fast tracked to come into place for January? (ultimately the answer to this question doesn't matter, whether it's politics or practicality, the fact it hasn't happened confirms that your statement about being absolutely no reason a free trade deal should take many years as incorrect. 

And whether it's 10 years, or 4 years or even 2.5 years, it seems very unlikely it will be 1 year after the withdrawal agreement was signed (i.e. 4 months from now).


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## Ethan (Sep 4, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			Well we are already over 4 years on from the Brexit vote and very limited progress has been made on that front. It took 2.5 years for a withdrawal agreement to be drafted and a further year for the UK to actually sign it. So these things tend to take a long time.

And ultimately Canada is not the UK. There are many differences, not least that the UK is starting from the position of being a member state and having supply chain, businesses, people and activities already very reliant on regular cross border trade and activity.

And if it is so simple to replicate the Canada agreement why hasn't this happened already or being fast tracked to come into place for January? (ultimately the answer to this question doesn't matter, whether it's politics or practicality, the fact it hasn't happened confirms that your statement about being absolutely no reason a free trade deal should take many years as incorrect.

And whether it's 10 years, or 4 years or even 2.5 years, it seems very unlikely it will be 1 year after the withdrawal agreement was signed (i.e. 4 months from now).
		
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Wow, too much rational thought there. You will probably shortly be invited to leave the country as you obviously hate it.


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## drdel (Sep 4, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			Well we are already over 4 years on from the Brexit vote and very limited progress has been made on that front. It took 2.5 years for a withdrawal agreement to be drafted and a further year for the UK to actually sign it. So these things tend to take a long time.

And ultimately Canada is not the UK. There are many differences, not least that the UK is starting from the position of being a member state and having supply chain, businesses, people and activities already very reliant on regular cross border trade and activity.

And if it is so simple to replicate the Canada agreement why hasn't this happened already or being fast tracked to come into place for January? (ultimately the answer to this question doesn't matter, whether it's politics or practicality, the fact it hasn't happened confirms that your statement about being absolutely no reason a free trade deal should take many years as incorrect.

And whether it's 10 years, or 4 years or even 2.5 years, it seems very unlikely it will be 1 year after the withdrawal agreement was signed (i.e. 4 months from now).
		
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It could be simple to replicate the Canadian deal: after all Barnier did propose that as a solution. However that was when he thought PM May would roll over in the EU's favour.

I'd respectively suggest you read some if the European press and economic assessments of the EU's future - there is simply not enough growth to maintain the debt they have ranked up. The UK will continue to trade and there is ample time to do deals. The world and trade deals will not end in December, businesses will adapt and the public will still eat, drink and live.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 4, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			Well we are already over 4 years on from the Brexit vote and very limited progress has been made on that front. It took 2.5 years for a withdrawal agreement to be drafted and a further year for the UK to actually sign it. So these things tend to take a long time.

And ultimately Canada is not the UK. There are many differences, not least that the UK is starting from the position of being a member state and having supply chain, businesses, people and activities already very reliant on regular cross border trade and activity.

And if it is so simple to replicate the Canada agreement why hasn't this happened already or being fast tracked to come into place for January? (ultimately the answer to this question doesn't matter, whether it's politics or practicality, the fact it hasn't happened confirms that your statement about being absolutely no reason a free trade deal should take many years as incorrect.

And whether it's 10 years, or 4 years or even 2.5 years, it seems very unlikely it will be 1 year after the withdrawal agreement was signed (i.e. 4 months from now).
		
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The reason theres not a Canada style deal is that Barnier having offered it once quickly withdrew it as he believed the UK were wriggling on his hook when May was PM and the government were under the cosh prior to the last election.   He now is too pumped up with his own importance to offer a fair deal and still believes the UK will capitulate to his unreasonable demands.

Regarding timescales have you seen how quickly a near ready trade deal with Japan has taken?  It just requires a will to make it happen by both parties being reasonable.
BBC News - UK and Japan look to seal trade deal within month
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-53697547


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## chrisd (Sep 4, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			He now is too pumped up with his own importance to offer a fair deal and still believes the UK will capitulate to his unreasonable demands.
		
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He's going to look rather silly when he has to back track on the tosh that he's spoken 😁😁


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## Grant85 (Sep 5, 2020)

drdel said:



			It could be simple to replicate the Canadian deal: after all Barnier did propose that as a solution. However that was when he thought PM May would roll over in the EU's favour.

I'd respectively suggest you read some if the European press and economic assessments of the EU's future - there is simply not enough growth to maintain the debt they have ranked up. The UK will continue to trade and there is ample time to do deals. The world and trade deals will not end in December, businesses will adapt and the public will still eat, drink and live.
		
Click to expand...

re: lack of growth. Ultimately that is the sign / symptom of a mature economy. Japan has been in this position for about 3 decades and it's people still enjoy a rich quality of life and their currency retains good buying power around the world. 

Is a lack of growth ideal, no, but inflation will still do it's bit for the debt. And most countries / currencies run large deficits and these rarely become a problem. 

When China's population consists mainly of middle class, educated people and their parents they will likely experience similar periods of low growth. 

But even if you take the view that the EU countries effectively become a Japan. It's still not certain the UK can extricate itself from the EU and do much better, if you really feel they need to. The problems of a mature economy, large middle class population and an ageing population are much the same as in Japan and large areas of the Eurozone.


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## drdel (Sep 5, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			re: lack of growth. Ultimately that is the sign / symptom of a mature economy. Japan has been in this position for about 3 decades and it's people still enjoy a rich quality of life and their currency retains good buying power around the world.

Is a lack of growth ideal, no, but inflation will still do it's bit for the debt. And most countries / currencies run large deficits and these rarely become a problem.

When China's population consists mainly of middle class, educated people and their parents they will likely experience similar periods of low growth.

But even if you take the view that the EU countries effectively become a Japan. It's still not certain the UK can extricate itself from the EU and do much better, if you really feel they need to. The problems of a mature economy, large middle class population and an ageing population are much the same as in Japan and large areas of the Eurozone.
		
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I don't share you comparison of the EU with Japan. Japan has a currency with a internationally set rate. The EU has kept the EU down to assist its exports (which has done the UK harm).

There is huge disparity in the 27 members with only a small number of net contributors. I doubt that many in Greece, Italy, Spain. Poland and the newer Eastern member would agree they have a rich standard of life.

Inflation may marginally reduce the 'numerical' debt of today's cash the average interest rates still exceed the IR and the debt is being continuously topped up by more and more borrowing and QE that was supposed to kickstart growth but it  has not reached to countries since it is been swallowed up by the Banks (mainly German banks who 'hold' the debt!


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## PNWokingham (Sep 6, 2020)

Dee day looms - let's hope Barnier is properly sidelined and the EU can show a dose of realism

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...l-days-unless-eu-realises-britain-serious-no/ 

The Brexit negotiations will be over in days unless the EU realises Britain is serious about no-deal, government sources have warned.

The eighth round of talks with Brussels begin on Tuesday, with progress crucial if the two sides are to finally reach an agreement.

It comes as the Telegraph reported on Saturday that the EU’s chief negotiator Michel Barnier is to be sidelined in a bid to break the deadlock.

But as the deadline on the discussions fast approaches, No 10 insiders say there will be no deal unless the bloc shows “more realism” on the “scale of the change that results from our departure”.

They have accused the EU of blindly “following a self-imposed doctrine of parallelism” without realising that what they are asking for is “completely at odds with what the British people voted for, twice”.

They also claim the European Commission, led by Ursula von der Leyen, has been stalling progress by refusing the UK’s offer of allowing them to share a consolidated text with the 27 remaining member states. 

A source close to the negotiations said: “We intensified the talks in July in order to reach a broad outline of an agreement this summer. 

“Due to the EU’s repeated refusal to accept that in key areas we need to do things in our own way, reflecting our new status as a sovereign, independent country, those difficult discussions are ongoing. 

“We now face a critical round of negotiations in London. We will continue to set out our reasonable arguments, which have remained the same since talks began in February - that we want an agreement based on precedent. It’s time the EU accepted that so we can move on.”


The source added that the EU needs to realise Britain is “serious” about leaving with an Australian-style free trading relationship if a deal cannot be struck.

“The whole Government has been extensively preparing to ensure that businesses and citizens are ready for the end of the transition period in any scenario,” the source added. “Outside the customs union, outside the single market and outside the EU.”

Last week, a leaked government document warned of “critical gaps” in new IT systems designed to get EU borders ready for post-Brexit trade when the transition period ends in four months time.

Yet government sources insist they are so serious about preparing for leaving on Australian terms on December 31 that work on readiness is being ramped up, with officials across departments working “at pace” on Britain’s preparedness. 

A new No 10 Transition Hub has been created, drawing "the best and brightest" officials from across Whitehall. Situated directly above No 10's policy unit officials in 70 Whitehall, it is tasked with having a central grip on transition work, working closely with Michael Gove and the Cabinet Office. The new unit will be staffed by civil servants in the office, with the use of live data.

Boris Johnson has insisted that the UK will still "prosper mightily" whatever the outcome of the talks. 

A Whitehall source said: “For four years now we have been clear that our sovereignty is non-negotiable – and our status as an independent country will not be compromised. This is what the British people voted for and is something we will deliver on 1 January 2021, regardless of the outcome of negotiations.”

It came as the UK's chief negotiator said the Government is not "scared" of walking away from talks with the European Union without a deal and vowed not to blink in the final phase.

Lord Frost told the Mail on Sunday  the UK would not agree to being a "client state" to the EU over issues such as fishery rights and vetoes on laws.

He said: "We came in after a Government and negotiating team that had blinked and had its bluff called at critical moments and the EU had learned not to take our word seriously.

"So a lot of what we are trying to do this year is to get them to realise that we mean what we say and they should take our position seriously."


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## Fade and Die (Sep 6, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			Dee day looms - let's hope Barnier is properly sidelined and the EU can show a dose of realism

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...l-days-unless-eu-realises-britain-serious-no/

The Brexit negotiations will be over in days unless the EU realises Britain is serious about no-deal, government sources have warned.

The eighth round of talks with Brussels begin on Tuesday, with progress crucial if the two sides are to finally reach an agreement.

It comes as the Telegraph reported on Saturday that the EU’s chief negotiator Michel Barnier is to be sidelined in a bid to break the deadlock.

But as the deadline on the discussions fast approaches, No 10 insiders say there will be no deal unless the bloc shows “more realism” on the “scale of the change that results from our departure”.

They have accused the EU of blindly “following a self-imposed doctrine of parallelism” without realising that what they are asking for is “completely at odds with what the British people voted for, twice”.

They also claim the European Commission, led by Ursula von der Leyen, has been stalling progress by refusing the UK’s offer of allowing them to share a consolidated text with the 27 remaining member states.

A source close to the negotiations said: “We intensified the talks in July in order to reach a broad outline of an agreement this summer.

“Due to the EU’s repeated refusal to accept that in key areas we need to do things in our own way, reflecting our new status as a sovereign, independent country, those difficult discussions are ongoing.

“We now face a critical round of negotiations in London. We will continue to set out our reasonable arguments, which have remained the same since talks began in February - that we want an agreement based on precedent. It’s time the EU accepted that so we can move on.”


The source added that the EU needs to realise Britain is “serious” about leaving with an Australian-style free trading relationship if a deal cannot be struck.

“The whole Government has been extensively preparing to ensure that businesses and citizens are ready for the end of the transition period in any scenario,” the source added. “Outside the customs union, outside the single market and outside the EU.”

Last week, a leaked government document warned of “critical gaps” in new IT systems designed to get EU borders ready for post-Brexit trade when the transition period ends in four months time.

Yet government sources insist they are so serious about preparing for leaving on Australian terms on December 31 that work on readiness is being ramped up, with officials across departments working “at pace” on Britain’s preparedness.

A new No 10 Transition Hub has been created, drawing "the best and brightest" officials from across Whitehall. Situated directly above No 10's policy unit officials in 70 Whitehall, it is tasked with having a central grip on transition work, working closely with Michael Gove and the Cabinet Office. The new unit will be staffed by civil servants in the office, with the use of live data.

Boris Johnson has insisted that the UK will still "prosper mightily" whatever the outcome of the talks.

A Whitehall source said: “For four years now we have been clear that our sovereignty is non-negotiable – and our status as an independent country will not be compromised. This is what the British people voted for and is something we will deliver on 1 January 2021, regardless of the outcome of negotiations.”

It came as the UK's chief negotiator said the Government is not "scared" of walking away from talks with the European Union without a deal and vowed not to blink in the final phase.

Lord Frost told the Mail on Sunday  the UK would not agree to being a "client state" to the EU over issues such as fishery rights and vetoes on laws.

*He said: "We came in after a Government and negotiating team that had blinked and had its bluff called at critical moments and the EU had learned not to take our word seriously.*

"So a lot of what we are trying to do this year is to get them to realise that we mean what we say and they should take our position seriously."
		
Click to expand...

What a disgrace, just shows how treacherous May and her Brexit team/EU collaborators were.


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## Foxholer (Sep 6, 2020)

BoJo 'upstages' Barnier by setting an earlier date after which negotiations will be considered pointless.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54051933


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## User62651 (Sep 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			BoJo 'upstages' Barnier by setting an earlier date after which negotiations will be considered pointless.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54051933

Click to expand...

Like October 31st? Just setting himself up for yet another U-turn. Sabre rattling cretin our PM. 
The UK negotiation is an utter embarassment, like a spoilt child trying to demand what it wants by spitting the dummy.


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## Ethan (Sep 7, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Like October 31st? Just setting himself up for yet another U-turn. Sabre rattling cretin our PM.
The UK negotiation is an utter embarassment, like a spoilt child trying to demand what it wants by spitting the dummy.
		
Click to expand...

I think the strategy is akin to the 'I'll hold my breath until I faint, then you'll be sorry'. It is a behaviour characteristic of people with Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder (acronym EU PD, ironically).


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## Foxholer (Sep 7, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Like October 31st? Just setting himself up for yet another U-turn. Sabre rattling cretin our PM.
The UK negotiation is an utter embarassment, like a spoilt child trying to demand what it wants by* spitting the dummy*.
		
Click to expand...

Possibly a good thing to do if all that's being allowed is bashing your head against a brick wall while your/our hands are tied behind your/our back!
I'm no lover of BoJo, nor of Brexit in the first place (but that's democracy), but I can't see Barnier/EU moving on very much, if anything, as that would likely encourage other countries that might waver from the 'European Project' to do similar. Co-operation and maybe even trade deals are, imo, likely to gradually grow after a suitable of 'rejection'. But trade (by percentage even though not by value) with EU is far more important to UK than trade with UK is to the EU/individual EU countries.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 7, 2020)

I think Johnson is now looking for a personal exit strategy.
He was always going to be a short term PM.
He does not look like a well man and seems incapable of doing the job.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 7, 2020)

PNWokingham said:



			Dee day looms - let's hope Barnier is properly sidelined and the EU can show a dose of realism

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...l-days-unless-eu-realises-britain-serious-no/

The Brexit negotiations will be over in days unless the EU realises Britain is serious about no-deal, government sources have warned.

The eighth round of talks with Brussels begin on Tuesday, with progress crucial if the two sides are to finally reach an agreement.

It comes as the Telegraph reported on Saturday that the EU’s chief negotiator Michel Barnier is to be sidelined in a bid to break the deadlock.

But as the deadline on the discussions fast approaches, No 10 insiders say there will be no deal unless the bloc shows “more realism” on the “scale of the change that results from our departure”.

They have accused the EU of blindly “following a self-imposed doctrine of parallelism” without realising that what they are asking for is “completely at odds with what the British people voted for, twice”.

They also claim the European Commission, led by Ursula von der Leyen, has been stalling progress by refusing the UK’s offer of allowing them to share a consolidated text with the 27 remaining member states.

A source close to the negotiations said: “We intensified the talks in July in order to reach a broad outline of an agreement this summer.

“Due to the EU’s repeated refusal to accept that in key areas we need to do things in our own way, reflecting our new status as a sovereign, independent country, those difficult discussions are ongoing.

“We now face a critical round of negotiations in London. We will continue to set out our reasonable arguments, which have remained the same since talks began in February - that we want an agreement based on precedent. It’s time the EU accepted that so we can move on.”


The source added that the EU needs to realise Britain is “serious” about leaving with an Australian-style free trading relationship if a deal cannot be struck.

“The whole Government has been extensively preparing to ensure that businesses and citizens are ready for the end of the transition period in any scenario,” the source added. “Outside the customs union, outside the single market and outside the EU.”

Last week, a leaked government document warned of “critical gaps” in new IT systems designed to get EU borders ready for post-Brexit trade when the transition period ends in four months time.

Yet government sources insist they are so serious about preparing for leaving on Australian terms on December 31 that work on readiness is being ramped up, with officials across departments working “at pace” on Britain’s preparedness.

A new No 10 Transition Hub has been created, drawing "the best and brightest" officials from across Whitehall. Situated directly above No 10's policy unit officials in 70 Whitehall, it is tasked with having a central grip on transition work, working closely with Michael Gove and the Cabinet Office. The new unit will be staffed by civil servants in the office, with the use of live data.

Boris Johnson has insisted that the UK will still "prosper mightily" whatever the outcome of the talks.

A Whitehall source said: “For four years now we have been clear that our sovereignty is non-negotiable – and our status as an independent country will not be compromised. This is what the British people voted for and is something we will deliver on 1 January 2021, regardless of the outcome of negotiations.”

It came as the UK's chief negotiator said the Government is not "scared" of walking away from talks with the European Union without a deal and vowed not to blink in the final phase.

Lord Frost told the Mail on Sunday  the UK would not agree to being a "client state" to the EU over issues such as fishery rights and vetoes on laws.

He said: "We came in after a Government and negotiating team that had blinked and had its bluff called at critical moments and the EU had learned not to take our word seriously.

"So a lot of what we are trying to do this year is to get them to realise that we mean what we say and they should take our position seriously."
		
Click to expand...

Maybe we shouldn’t believe all we read in the papers.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ays-former-may-aide-gavin-barwell-david-frost


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## drdel (Sep 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Possibly a good thing to do if all that's being allowed is bashing your head against a brick wall while your/our hands are tied behind your/our back!
I'm no lover of BoJo, nor of Brexit in the first place (but that's democracy), but I can't see Barnier/EU moving on very much, if anything, as that would likely encourage other countries that might waver from the 'European Project' to do similar. Co-operation and maybe even trade deals are, imo, likely to gradually grow after a suitable of 'rejection'. But trade (by percentage even though not by value) with EU is far more important to UK than trade with UK is to the EU/individual EU countries.
		
Click to expand...

But there are better opportunities with the RoW.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			But there are better opportunities with the RoW.
		
Click to expand...

Of course there are, but these deals/relationships/opportunities take time!

The World does not revolve around us and our timetable.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 7, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Like October 31st? Just setting himself up for yet another U-turn. Sabre rattling cretin our PM.
The UK negotiation is an utter embarassment, l*ike a spoilt child trying to demand what it wants by spitting the dummy*.
		
Click to expand...

It's just playing to the hard core 'we always wanted no deal or WTO rules anyway' crowd, trying to make ourselves look hard and take no nonsense from the EU in their eyes.  I do still there will be a deal with a lot of climbing down dressed up as headline victories fed to the usual suspects in the press.


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## Ethan (Sep 7, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Maybe we shouldn’t believe all we read in the papers.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ays-former-may-aide-gavin-barwell-david-frost

Click to expand...

Today's news that the UK intends to pass legislation overriding the Withdrawal Agreement is proof that the UK Govt has no desire to do a deal, and intends to deliver the no deal it promised its hedge fund mates a long time ago. All pretence they wanted a deal is more or less gone. 

The Govt rushed the withdrawal agreement through Parliament, Johnson voted for it, and now they intend to blatantly welch on it. I don't know why any other country would trust a word that the habitual liar and con man Johnson or any of his Govt say.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Today's news that the UK intends to pass legislation overriding the Withdrawal Agreement is proof that the UK Govt has no desire to do a deal, and intends to deliver the no deal it promised its hedge fund mates a long time ago. All pretence they wanted a deal is more or less gone.

The Govt rushed the withdrawal agreement through Parliament, Johnson voted for it, and now they intend to blatantly welch on it. I don't know why any other country would trust a word that the habitual liar and con man Johnson or any of his Govt say.
		
Click to expand...

Again though, let’s wait and see, maybe it’s no more than media speculation.

This is what happens when you keep getting fed bluff and bluster.


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## Lord Tyrion (Sep 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Today's news that the UK intends to pass legislation overriding the Withdrawal Agreement is proof that the UK Govt has no desire to do a deal, and intends to deliver the no deal it promised its hedge fund mates a long time ago. All pretence they wanted a deal is more or less gone.

The Govt rushed the withdrawal agreement through Parliament, Johnson voted for it, and now they intend to blatantly welch on it. I don't know why any other country would trust a word that the habitual liar and con man Johnson or any of his Govt say.
		
Click to expand...

Alternatively they are trying to show the EU they are serious about pulling out if Barnier does not budge. It sets up a plan B if required. It does not need to be enacted, just available if required.

I'm no fan of this govt but one thing is clear about the EU, if you show weakness they will bully you and walk over you. You have to stand up to them. It does not mean that we will get all that we want but hopefully it will lead to some sort of compromise. Look at the history of EU deals, they are full of bluster, refusal to budge and then 3am deals at the last minute. It is how they work unfortunately.

My understanding is that a deal is all in place with the exeception of two points, fishing and state aid. If everything else is ironed out, surely they are areas that can be resolved if both parties bend a little.


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## Ethan (Sep 7, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Again though, let’s wait and see, maybe it’s no more than media speculation.

This is what happens when you keep getting fed bluff and bluster.

Click to expand...

Widely reported, though. It is basically what Michael Gove suggested early in negotiations, agree something then ignore it later.


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## Ethan (Sep 7, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Alternatively they are trying to show the EU they are serious about pulling out if Barnier does not budge. It sets up a plan B if required. It does not need to be enacted, just available if required.

I'm no fan of this govt but one thing is clear about the EU, if you show weakness they will bully you and walk over you. You have to stand up to them. It does not mean that we will get all that we want but hopefully it will lead to some sort of compromise. Look at the history of EU deals, they are full of bluster, refusal to budge and then 3am deals at the last minute. It is how they work unfortunately.

My understanding is that a deal is all in place with the exeception of two points, fishing and state aid. If everything else is ironed out, surely they are areas that can be resolved if both parties bend a little.
		
Click to expand...

It is nothing to do with bullying. If anything, the UK yakked on about the EU needing them more than the UK needed the EU, and the UK being in the stronger negotiating position. Lies, of course. The withdrawal agreement is not dependent on a trade deal being agreed. The UK made a deal, rigged the process in Parliament so it would get rushed through with little scrutiny, the current PM and Govt ministers voted for it, and now they have decided they don't like it any more, so they accuse the EU of being difficult. 

The EU were always going to take a strong position on the level playing field, as they should. It is a lynchpin of their whole structure. Everyone knew that, including the UK. Now, they have the choice of walking away and taking no deal, but despite the fact they knew from the outset that this wasn't a pick and mix negotiation, they are doing a public throwing the toys out to rile up the Daily Mail and Torygraph types. The UK will back down, it is really only a matter of how they dress it up.


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## Doon frae Troon (Sep 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			It is nothing to do with bullying. If anything, the UK yakked on about the EU needing them more than the UK needed the EU, and the UK being in the stronger negotiating position. Lies, of course. The withdrawal agreement is not dependent on a trade deal being agreed. The UK made a deal, rigged the process in Parliament so it would get rushed through with little scrutiny, the current PM and Govt ministers voted for it, and now they have decided they don't like it any more, so they accuse the EU of being difficult.

The EU were always going to take a strong position on the level playing field, as they should. It is a lynchpin of their whole structure. Everyone knew that, including the UK. Now, they have the choice of walking away and taking no deal, but despite the fact they knew from the outset that this wasn't a pick and mix negotiation, they are doing a public throwing the toys out to rile up the Daily Mail and Torygraph types. The UK will back down, it is really only a matter of how they dress it up.
		
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Well said .

Fishing is such a red herring,
It is a tiny amount of both sides budgets, ridiculous it should be a 'stumbling block' to the main deal.
Tory party are only thinking of appeasing their big donors from the Scottish fishing industry.


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## drdel (Sep 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Today's news that the UK intends to pass legislation overriding the Withdrawal Agreement is proof that the UK Govt has no desire to do a deal, and intends to deliver the no deal it promised its hedge fund mates a long time ago. All pretence they wanted a deal is more or less gone.

The Govt rushed the withdrawal agreement through Parliament, Johnson voted for it, and now they intend to blatantly welch on it. I don't know why any other country would trust a word that the habitual liar and con man Johnson or any of his Govt say.
		
Click to expand...

The legislation is there in case there is no agreement so there is time to enable other legislation. 

It is allowing for lead times in the planning/enabling of Parliamentary time for SIs, Acts etc. 

Has the EU has not 'welched' on the Canada offer Barnier tabled early in the process.


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## drdel (Sep 7, 2020)

We keep banging on about 'no deal' as if the £700odd mill trade will evaporate over night. Trade with EU members will still continue, let's not get sucked into the hyped media stories!


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			We keep banging on about 'no deal' as if the £700odd mill trade will evaporate over night. Trade with EU members will still continue, let's not get sucked into the hyped media stories!
		
Click to expand...

And also let's not pretend that 'no deal' was ever mentioned as a serious or desirable potential outcome when the referendum occurred.


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## Ethan (Sep 7, 2020)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Well said .

Fishing is such a red herring,
It is a tiny amount of both sides budgets, ridiculous it should be a 'stumbling block' to the main deal.
Tory party are only thinking of appeasing their big donors from the Scottish fishing industry.
		
Click to expand...

The UK Govt doesn't care about fishing other than as an element of their political brand. It doesn't contribute very much to the economy (0.12% of the UK economy, 24000 jobs). More than half of all English fishing rights were sold to mostly European companies in the 1990s. The UK fleets mostly catch stuff the UK consumer doesn't eat so therefore must be exported, and most of the haddock and cod eaten here are imported. 

It is all basically a throwback to the old 'war on the seas', Britannia rules the waves mentality.  

In contrast, the UK Govt was happy to take a dump on the UK life sciences industry, which is at least 20x bigger than fishing, by failing to remain in the European Medicines Agency or keep the EMA HQ in the UK, both of which they could have done. The move of the EMA HQ alone probably dwarfs the economic effects of fishing, never mind all the companies which have relocated HQs and programmes to the EU. I get calls from recruiters all the time, part of being a long serving pharma medic. There has been a very clear shift out of the UK. I used to get about 2 calls regarding UK positions for every 1 in Europe, Now it is 3:1 the other way, with Switzerland (not in the EU, but in the EMA) and Benelux leading the way. Every company I know has also shifted work out of the UK, sometimes moving people, sometimes losing people.


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## Ethan (Sep 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			The legislation is there in case there is no agreement so there is time to enable other legislation.

It is allowing for lead times in the planning/enabling of Parliamentary time for SIs, Acts etc.

Has the EU has not 'welched' on the Canada offer Barnier tabled early in the process.
		
Click to expand...

The withdrawal agreement was signed and sealed, and the UK Parliament passed it with 330 Tory votes. 

I don't think any Canada deal was agreed, the UK seemed to hold out for a number of pluses. 

But if you want to compare promises made with actual outcomes, bring it on. I have loads for you to chew on.


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## drdel (Sep 7, 2020)

Loads of UK jobs went to other states because the euro has been kept undervalued and through the grants and subsidies used to entice our industries to Poland, Spain and others. 

Those same incentives that the EU now wish to prevent the UK using, even though they never sanctioned the members who broke the rules, the UK honoured the rules and got shafted. 

The EU fishing industry has received grants fir the large factory trawlers that now hoover anything in the English Channel.

Wake up we have been an honourable member implementing the rules, on worker safety, environmental controls, waste treatment etc etc.   Many others have not and we have been royally screwed in the process


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## drdel (Sep 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The withdrawal agreement was signed and sealed, and the UK Parliament passed it with 330 Tory votes.

I don't think any Canada deal was agreed, the UK seemed to hold out for a number of pluses.

But if you want to compare promises made with actual outcomes, bring it on. I have loads for you to chew on.
		
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I have opinions which you don't share and I do not feel the need engage in a tit for tat. What's with the aggression every time I post?


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## Ethan (Sep 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			Loads of UK jobs went to other states because the euro has been kept undervalued and through the grants and subsidies used to entice our industries to Poland, Spain and others.

Those same incentives that the EU now wish to prevent the UK using, even though they never sanctioned the members who broke the rules, the UK honoured the rules and got shafted.

The EU fishing industry has received grants fir the large factory trawlers that now hoover anything in the English Channel.

Wake up we have been an honourable member implementing the rules, on worker safety, environmental controls, waste treatment etc etc.   Many others have not and we have been royally screwed in the process
		
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Nonsense. Wake up and read something other than the diarrhoeal propaganda from poisonous Leave EU organisations that are conning you and loads of other people to serve the interests of those funding the campaigns. 

The U.K. benefitted greatly from EU membership with lots of companies locating their EU HQs here. And now it is about to get a severe economic kicking.


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## Ethan (Sep 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			I have opinions which you don't share and I do not feel the need engage in a tit for tat. What's with the aggression every time I post?
		
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Please. You attack me frequently. You asked me about Canada deals which Barnier had mentioned (but not promised) and I countered that there were plenty of other promises made, which you knew I meant were from Brexiters. No reason to get all upset about that unless you are trying to distract.


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## Hobbit (Sep 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			Loads of UK jobs went to other states because the euro has been kept undervalued and through the grants and subsidies used to entice our industries to Poland, Spain and others.

Those same incentives that the EU now wish to prevent the UK using, even though they never sanctioned the members who broke the rules, the UK honoured the rules and got shafted.

The EU fishing industry has received grants fir the large factory trawlers that now hoover anything in the English Channel.

Wake up we have been an honourable member implementing the rules, on worker safety, environmental controls, waste treatment etc etc.   Many others have not and we have been royally screwed in the process
		
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Land Rover and the Czech Republic. The loans, grants and NOT subsidies played a big part in get LR to move to the Czech Republic. However, vastly reduced local taxes might be considered subsidies... The EU investigated it in depth and, shock of shocks, no rules were broken - like hell they were!

EU 'v' UK fishing. A simple exercise would be to look at photographs of the major fishing ports in the UK, going back 40 years. In truth, you won't see a massive difference. However, bear in mind that 70% of the boats offloading into the likes of Grimsby are now 'other' EU country flagged.

The offer made by the UK on fishing was accepted by Barnier almost 3 months ago. Macron said no, and Barnier went back to unfettered access.

Implementing rules; that's quite an interesting one. The UK hasn't correctly implemented every rule, and has been severely fined for it. Most of the southern EU states + France have written the rules into their laws but then just ignored many of them. And when fines have been levied against them, a number of countries have refused to pay. Environmental Standards and waste management; I can't speak for any country but my own experiences here in Spain lolololol. And you can add in employee protection - the laws exist but they are very, very rarely implemented.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Sep 7, 2020)

Maybe posters should not read the posts in an aggressive style as I don’t see either of you posting in that style, certainly not tit for tat.


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## drdel (Sep 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Nonsense. Wake up and read something other than the diarrhoeal propaganda from poisonous Leave EU organisations that are conning you and loads of other people to serve the interests of those funding the campaigns.

The U.K. benefitted greatly from EU membership with lots of companies locating their EU HQs here. And now it is about to get a severe economic kicking.
		
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Really! More personal insults and OTT derogatory comments about those who dare to think or voted differently to you.

Since you have no evidence how the UK may have developed outside the EU your claim the UK benefitted 'greatly' is entirely without substance .


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## banjofred (Sep 7, 2020)

I'm waiting for someone.....please....anyone.....to "change" their minds about Brexit (pssst, I have....but don't tell anybody). The same people who hate Brexit still hate Brexit........the same people who think it's the Second Coming still think it's coming. I'm pretty sure some things with Brexit will be better...other bits worse..... People who KNOW they have the answer and what will happen 5 years from now......you should be betting on the horses instead and get rich.


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## Kellfire (Sep 7, 2020)

banjofred said:



			I'm waiting for someone.....please....anyone.....to "change" their minds about Brexit (pssst, I have....but don't tell anybody). The same people who hate Brexit still hate Brexit........the same people who think it's the Second Coming still think it's coming. I'm pretty sure some things with Brexit will be better...other bits worse..... People who KNOW they have the answer and what will happen 5 years from now......you should be betting on the horses instead and get rich.
		
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Those who voted remain are still correct so they won’t change their mind and those who voted Brexit won’t admit they’re wrong so it’s sort of pointless to ask anyone to change their mind.


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## Ethan (Sep 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			Really! More personal insults and OTT derogatory comments about those who dare to think or voted differently to you.

Since you have no evidence how the UK may have developed outside the EU your claim the UK benefitted 'greatly' is entirely without substance .
		
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Evidence? After you, mon ami.

In science, there is a saying that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Just yesterday, Johnson said that the UK would 'prosper mightily' even with no deal. Like every other thing that he says, he offered no evidence whatsoever for that claim. Most economists (apart from you and Patrick Minford) think that the likelihood of the UK doing better outside the EU rather than in, even with a deal, is wildly hopeful if not utterly delusional.

There is no doubt that there has been a flight of business and capital away from the UK, but little evidence of inward investment of anything close to a balancing amount, and that US trade deal looks like a distant hope.

And the remark that, in essence, that because there is not a parallel alternate reality against which something can be compared, therefore nothing can be proven, is curious. I do hope you will apply that same logic to your opinions from now on. You will therefore never say that the UK would do better outside than in since we do not have a controlled alternate universe within which to observe the diferences.


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## Ethan (Sep 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			Really! More personal insults and OTT derogatory comments about those who dare to think or voted differently to you.

Since you have no evidence how the UK may have developed outside the EU your claim the UK benefitted 'greatly' is entirely without substance .
		
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No personal insult at all, unless you are a propagandist from Leave EU. Are you?


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## drdel (Sep 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			No personal insult at all, unless you are a propagandist from Leave EU. Are you?
		
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## banjofred (Sep 7, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Those who voted remain are still correct so they won’t change their mind and those who voted Brexit won’t admit they’re wrong so it’s sort of pointless to ask anyone to change their most.
		
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I'm assuming that's an auto correct issue? I've gone from being a Remain person to wanting to Leave. I don't get to vote.....so kind of irrelevant.


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## Kellfire (Sep 7, 2020)

banjofred said:



			I'm assuming that's an auto correct issue? I've gone from being a Remain person to wanting to Leave. I don't get to vote.....so kind of irrelevant.
		
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 What propaganda made you want to leave after initially being remain?


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## Ethan (Sep 7, 2020)

Steve Baker (ex-head ERG) has something to say.


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## Ethan (Sep 7, 2020)

drdel said:





Click to expand...


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## banjofred (Sep 7, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			What propaganda made you want to leave after initially being remain?
		
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BBC news mostly......


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## Mudball (Sep 7, 2020)

/



Ethan said:



			The UK Govt doesn't care about fishing other than as an element of their political brand. It doesn't contribute very much to the economy (0.12% of the UK economy, 24000 jobs). More than half of all English fishing rights were sold to mostly European companies in the 1990s. The UK fleets mostly catch stuff the UK consumer doesn't eat so therefore must be exported, and most of the haddock and cod eaten here are imported.

It is all basically a throwback to the old 'war on the seas', Britannia rules the waves mentality.

In contrast, the UK Govt was happy to take a dump on the UK life sciences industry, which is at least 20x bigger than fishing, by failing to remain in the European Medicines Agency or keep the EMA HQ in the UK, both of which they could have done. The move of the EMA HQ alone probably dwarfs the economic effects of fishing, never mind all the companies which have relocated HQs and programmes to the EU. I get calls from recruiters all the time, part of being a long serving pharma medic. There has been a very clear shift out of the UK. I used to get about 2 calls regarding UK positions for every 1 in Europe, Now it is 3:1 the other way, with Switzerland (not in the EU, but in the EMA) and Benelux leading the way. Every company I know has also shifted work out of the UK, sometimes moving people, sometimes losing people.
		
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How soon before you and @hacker are called anti-nationals and not wanting for UK to succeed?   Please dont post such dire facts or reminders of what was promised v/s reality.   It is easier to comment on complex threads like Trump or Broken dishwashers than such simple life changing threads... 

PS:  We have left and we are taking our ball with us.  This is what the people voted for (some may argue they did not know what they voted for).  It does not matter if the Govt (IDS) has rejected its OWN WA as bad, even though he voted for it.   Much like the Republicans voting against Trump impeachment after saying he was bad.  the Govt has the majority to do it.


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## banjofred (Sep 7, 2020)

banjofred said:



			BBC news mostly......
		
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Oh....I forgot to add.....BBC news, my Russian Comrade friend.


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## Ethan (Sep 7, 2020)

Mudball said:



			/


How soon before you and @hacker are called anti-nationals and not wanting for UK to succeed?   Please dont post such dire facts or reminders of what was promised v/s reality.   It is easier to comment on complex threads like Trump or Broken dishwashers than such simple life changing threads... 

PS:  We have left and we are taking our ball with us.  This is what the people voted for (some may argue they did not know what they voted for)
		
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Oh, already invited to move to Europe by at least one other person on this thread. 

I would argue that acceding to the group delusion and supporting a disastrous Brexit is anti-national. 

I know we have left, but we have not quite finally decided what to do with our ball, or who adjudicates if there is a dispute over its ownership. 

As a matter of law, people actually voted only to inform Parliament that they wished to leave and for Parliament to consider that result.


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## Foxholer (Sep 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			Really! More personal insults and OTT derogatory comments about those who dare to think or voted differently to you....
		
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Kindly get your facts right - something that SHOULD be important to someone in your supposed position...
Nothing 'personal' nor 'OTT derogatory' about Ethan's 'comments' imo. (And I'd  say similar if it was the other way around too!). I'd call them simply a contrary view emphatically put!
If a contrary opinion offends you so much, kindly point out the actual offence! It seems to me that it's YOU that's providing the 'personal abuse'!


drdel said:



			...Since you have no evidence how the UK may have developed outside the EU your claim the UK benefitted 'greatly' is entirely without substance .
		
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All a matter of opinion! But I believe UK's progress/maintenance of position in world economies is evidence of how much EU membership has contributed to that status. It's likely, imo, to take a (hopefully temporary) hit from the consequences of Brexit - that I'm certain will be seen as confirmation of the error by SOME Remainers - but, hopefully. the effects will be minimal! Roll on all year round Kiwi Lamb and Kangaroo Steaks!


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## Mudball (Sep 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Kindly get your facts right - something that SHOULD be important to someone in your supposed position...
Nothing 'personal' nor 'OTT derogatory' about Ethan's 'comments' imo. (And I'd  say similar if it was the other way around too!). I'd call them simply a contrary view emphatically put!
If a contrary opinion offends you so much, kindly point out the actual offence! It seems to me that it's YOU that's providing the 'personal abuse'!

All a matter of opinion! But I believe UK's progress/maintenance of position in world economies is evidence of how much EU membership has contributed to that status. It's likely, imo, to take a (hopefully temporary) hit from the consequences of Brexit - that I'm certain will be seen as confirmation of the error by SOME Remainers - but, hopefully. the effects will be minimal! Roll on all year round* Kiwi Lamb and Kangaroo Steaks*!
		
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personal opinion... but i like Kiwi Lamb better than French Snails..


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## Foxholer (Sep 7, 2020)

Mudball said:



			personal opinion... but i like Kiwi Lamb better than French Snails..
		
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I should hope so - though Escargots can be an excellent 'starter'!
Both certainly more 'natural' than Foie Gras!


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			but we have not quite finally decided what to do with our ball, or who adjudicates if there is a dispute over its ownership.
		
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That's the problem with the EU. It's our ball but they want to claim it's their's and have their court decide who's right.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 7, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			Those who voted remain are still correct so they won’t change their mind and those who voted Brexit won’t admit they’re wrong so it’s sort of pointless to ask anyone to change their mind.
		
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What's the point in agreeing with you as we would both be wrong.


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## Mudball (Sep 7, 2020)

ColchesterFC said:



			That's the problem with the EU. It's our ball but they want to claim it's their's and have their court decide who's right. 

Click to expand...

btw, are we asking for access to their ball/playground to play with our ball?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 7, 2020)

Mudball said:



			btw, are we asking for access to their ball/playground to play with our ball?
		
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We'll play with theirs if they play with ours!


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## Mudball (Sep 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			We'll play with theirs if they play with ours!
		
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so if they dont give us preferential treatment, then we will go elsewhere.  also if they give us pref treatment, then we will still go elsewhere..  i will sign up for this. 

(BTW, which way is the trade deficit going these days?)


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## SocketRocket (Sep 7, 2020)

Mudball said:



			so if they dont give us preferential treatment, then we will go elsewhere.  also if they give us pref treatment, then we will still go elsewhere..  i will sign up for this.

(BTW, which way is the trade deficit going these days?)
		
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Don't follow that logic.  None of us are going anywhere, we will still both be trading very much as we always have,  probably some slight differences that won't make any great changes.  Of course we will still be going elsewhere we always have, the USA is elsewhere, India is elsewhere, China, Australia, Brazil, Canada and Japan are all elsewhere, lots of places are and why would we not want to go there?    

Trade deficit is still in favour of the EU although you would never think so


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## Foxholer (Sep 7, 2020)

Mudball said:



			How soon before you and @hacker are called anti-nationals and not wanting for UK to succeed?...
		
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You must have missed that vitriol from quite a few months ago!
All of it aspirational stuff and nonsense based on BoJo's rhetoric (and we know how trustworthy he is!)!


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## Foxholer (Sep 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			...
Trade deficit is still in favour of the EU although you would never think so 

Click to expand...

THE Trade deficit to March 2020 has been revised to 4 Billion (after an (improvement) adjustment of 2.7 Billion resulting mainly from a 2.2 Billion reduction in services imports)!

And always worth remembering that UK Trade exports to EU is something around 43 percent of UK trade (and imports around 49%, while EU 'exports' to UK are about 8% of EU exports! So UK is (percentage-wise) far more dependent on EU than EU is on UK!


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## Mudball (Sep 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			THE Trade deficit to March 2020 has been revised to 4 Billion (after an (improvement) adjustment of 2.7 Billion resulting mainly from a 2.2 Billion reduction in services imports)!

And always worth remembering that UK Trade exports to EU is something around 43 percent of UK trade (and imports around 49%, while EU 'exports' to UK are about 8% of EU exports! So UK is (percentage-wise) far more dependent on EU than EU is on UK!
		
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All this is going to change.. while we may not have the cars that the Germans want, we will soon have a vaccine that the world wants....   If Barnier wants a vaccine, he better sign up to our terms.. simples..


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## SocketRocket (Sep 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			THE Trade deficit to March 2020 has been revised to 4 Billion (after an (improvement) adjustment of 2.7 Billion resulting mainly from a 2.2 Billion reduction in services imports)!

And always worth remembering that UK Trade exports to EU is something around 43 percent of UK trade (and imports around 49%, while EU 'exports' to UK are about 8% of EU exports! So UK is (percentage-wise) far more dependent on EU than EU is on UK!
		
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So  my comment was correct, thanks for the confirmation.

The percentages of trade is not very pertinent as most of it with the EU is with the larger Western European countries and not representative across the block. The UK trade with France, Germany etc is very important to those countries and they will have to pay the deficit with the loss of the UK.  Let's get away from the concept that trade will stop after Brexit, you know and I know it will continue much as before and probably with a new trade agreement.


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## Ethan (Sep 7, 2020)

Mudball said:



			All this is going to change.. while we may not have the cars that the Germans want, we will soon have a vaccine that the world wants....   If Barnier wants a vaccine, he better sign up to our terms.. simples..
		
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The EU already has a deal in place for 300 million doses of the Oxford/Astra Zeneca vaccine. There would be no sense in the UK trying to block export, not that it could.

But what if the AZ vaccine fails and one produced in the EU by BioNTech or Sanofi is the best candidate? Should the shoe be on the other foot then?


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## SocketRocket (Sep 7, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The EU already has a deal in place for 300 million doses of the Oxford/Astra Zeneca vaccine. There would be no sense in the UK trying to block export, not that it could.

But what if the AZ vaccine fails and one produced in the EU by BioNTech or Sanofi is the best candidate? Should the shoe be on the other foot then?
		
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The WHO has said that Covid Vaccines should not be held by countries but used Worldwide on a most vulnerable basis. I hope this is what happens.


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## Mudball (Sep 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The WHO has said that Covid Vaccines should not be held by countries but used Worldwide on a most vulnerable basis. I hope this is what happens.
		
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But hasnt Trump tried to buy all of the ones from some German biotech firm.. we could do the same..    We could also follow the American example and withdraw from the WHO.. .. i say our vaccine, our rights (just like our fishes)


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## ColchesterFC (Sep 7, 2020)

Mudball said:



			btw, are we asking for access to their ball/playground to play with our ball?
		
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We'd definitely want to play on our pitch as we'd have the benefit of kicking downhill with the wind. Apparently the EU require a level playing field.


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## Kaz (Sep 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			The WHO has said that Covid Vaccines should not be held by countries but used Worldwide on a most vulnerable basis. I hope this is what happens.
		
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In recent years countries of the world have been growing further apart and more adversarial. 15-20 years ago I'd have shared your hope but sadly can't see it now.


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## Foxholer (Sep 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			So  my comment was correct, thanks for the confirmation....
		
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That was the overall deficit - not simply EU.
But it appears you are happy that UK continues to owe more and more to EU (and others)! That doesn't sound like sound economics! If your (ex) company had that problem, iIm certain you'd want to do something about it. Though cutting sales (and purchases at 'best prices') would almost certainly be the wrong thing to do!

The rest of you post is pure (hopeful) speculation!

The simple fact is that UK is far more dependent on the EU for trade than the EU is on UK - by a huge factor!


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## Ethan (Sep 7, 2020)

Mudball said:



			But hasnt Trump tried to buy all of the ones from some German biotech firm.. we could do the same..    We could also follow the American example and withdraw from the WHO.. .. i say our vaccine, our rights (just like our fishes)
		
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That was the (German company) BioNTech one which is being developed by (US company) Pfizer. I think the Germans told him to do one. In my opinion there are likely to be multiple successful vaccines and the main rate limiting step will be administration as much as production.


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## drdel (Sep 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



*Kindly get your facts right(1)* - something that SHOULD be important to *someone in your supposed position (2).*..
Nothing 'personal' nor 'OTT derogatory' about Ethan's 'comments' imo. (And I'd  say similar if it was the other way around too!). I'd call them simply a contrary view emphatically put!
If a contrary opinion offends you so much, kindly point out the actual offence! It seems to me that it's YOU that's providing the 'personal abuse'!

All a matter of opinion! But I believe UK's progress/maintenance of position in world economies is evidence of how much EU membership has contributed to that status. It's likely, imo, to take a (hopefully temporary) hit from the consequences of Brexit - that I'm certain will be seen as confirmation of the error by SOME Remainers - but, hopefully. the effects will be minimal! Roll on all year round Kiwi Lamb and Kangaroo Steaks!
		
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1) And whose facts would this be: yours I guess
2) Would you like to be more precise on what my supposed position is - are you suggesting I have lied or made false claims?
3) Everything I post here is an opinion, which has been stated by me numerous times.

My experience led to me vote leave to the EU because I believe it has become progressively inept and structurally unable to manage its affairs. It is corrupt in many ways and kept afloat by debt which it is increasingly unable to support by 'legal' means. Much of the debt has been 'sovereign' debt which fundamentally wrong because none of the so-called 'sovereign' members can underwrite their own or the EU borrowing.  The EU has relied on the UK/London finance mechanisms to continue borrowing.

The UK has been treated as a cash cow and while we have tried for 2 decades to get reforms from the inside this has been voted down and so have our demands for more transparency and accounting rigour.

My thesis remains that the UK has been disadvantaged by membership and continued membership will cause the UK severe economic, defence and security issues worsened by the expansion eastwards and by federalism.


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## Foxholer (Sep 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			1) And whose facts would this be: yours I guess
2) Would you like to be more precise on what my supposed position is - are you suggesting I have lied or made false claims?
3) Everything I post here is an opinion, which has been stated by me numerous times.
...
		
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1. That's the point - as I posted! You were factually wrong! There were no insults/derogatory comments!
2. Refer your earlier post re your experience!
3. Agreed! But Yours is too often unsupported drivel!

The rest is irrelevant! As has been stated 'zillions' of times, we are leaving - so that argument is moot!


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## drdel (Sep 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			1. That's the point - as I posted! You were factually wrong! There were no insults/derogatory comments!
2. Refer your earlier post re your experience!
3. Agreed! *But Yours is too often unsupported drivel! (1)*

The rest is irrelevant! As has been stated 'zillions' of times, we are leaving - so *that argument is moot (2)*!
		
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1) So no derogatory inference then?
2) Not an argument I gave you my reasons; you can ignore.

I'll just make a last and final, and, I admit, childish response / comment to you since you like facts...
You've posted 20,000 posts of which only 960 were 'liked'.
My post rate is only a quarter of that at 3,700 with twice the 'likes' at  1,800 

Perhaps we might now move on...


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## SocketRocket (Sep 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			That was the overall deficit - not simply EU.
But it appears you are happy that UK continues to owe more and more to EU (and others)! That doesn't sound like sound economics! If your (ex) company had that problem, iIm certain you'd want to do something about it. Though cutting sales (and purchases at 'best prices') would almost certainly be the wrong thing to do!

The rest of you post is pure (hopeful) speculation!

The simple fact is that UK is far more dependent on the EU for trade than the EU is on UK - by a huge factor!
		
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The UK had a £43billion trade deficit with the EU in 2019 but why would I be happy with that,  the reason its pertinent is that the EU are doing very well from trade with the UK and would be foolish to try and change that situation. If my ex company was in that situation I would be chuffed. Although If I had been trading with a company at a loss I would be negotiating a new deal with them or looking for a better outlet.

The rest of my post wasn't speculation as you put it, it was my considered opinion and based on the facts available, if you consider them wrong then explain why they're wrong. I would also suggest you keep it sensible before another thread gets closed.


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## Kaz (Sep 7, 2020)

drdel said:



			1) So no derogatory inference then?
2) Not an argument I gave you my reasons; you can ignore.

I'll just make a last and final, and, I admit, childish response / comment to you since you like facts...
You've posted 20,000 posts of which only 960 were 'liked'.
My post rate is only a quarter of that at 3,700 with twice the 'likes' at  1,800 

Perhaps we might now move on...
		
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We need more info - how many likes from socketrocket?


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## robinthehood (Sep 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			We need more info - how many likes from socketrocket? 

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🤣😂


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 7, 2020)

Well although we have differences of opinions, at least grown men have not resorted to counting likes like a desperate 13 year old girl on Instagram to try and appear superior.

_Checks recent posts_.

Oh crap...


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## SocketRocket (Sep 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			We need more info - how many likes from socketrocket? 

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 So now its wrong to like a post, well unless it suits your personal preferences. Cheap shot.


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## Kaz (Sep 7, 2020)

SocketRocket said:



			So now its wrong to like a post, well unless it suits your personal preferences. Cheap shot.
		
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Do you actually think that was me having a go and not just a harmless, light-hearted comment in response to drdel's joke about likes?

Really sad, give yourself a shake.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 7, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1303079494354436097
I mean I'm sure there are still some out there that believe what Boris and the government say is the honest truth at all times. I wish I had such faith.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Do you actually think that was me having a go and not just a harmless, light-hearted comment in response to drdel's joke about likes?

Really sad, give yourself a shake.
		
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Can I just say I'm not going to like this post as people may get upset. But between you and me, I silently approve of it.


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## banjofred (Sep 8, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1303079494354436097
I mean I'm sure there are still some out there that believe what Boris and the government say is the honest truth at all times. I wish I had such faith.
		
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It constantly shocks me that people actually blindly believe what a politician/Govt states. Hope for the best, but question everything.


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 8, 2020)

banjofred said:



			It constantly shocks me that people actually blindly believe what a politician/Govt states. Hope for the best, but question everything.
		
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True, but when they are making a statement on one of the biggest issues impacting this country in ages during an election, you have to hope they slightly believe what they are saying.  Or may be they did and they are lying now for political gain, it is/was a great deal after all.  Who knows anymore.


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## spongebob59 (Sep 8, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1303082866775998464


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 8, 2020)

spongebob59 said:




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1303082866775998464

Click to expand...

Is that Guido's European cousin? Or has Guido rebranded himself to retweet anything Euro related the government tells him now.  Which may turn out not be be true the next day?


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## Mudball (Sep 8, 2020)

Another lefty taking aim at our Glorious Leader...  (he should be sent to live in the EU) 

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-09-07...johnson-is-jeopardising-an-eu-free-trade-deal


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## Foxholer (Sep 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			...
I'll just make a last and final, and, I admit, childish response / comment to you since you like facts...
You've posted 20,000 posts of which only 960 were 'liked'.
My post rate is only a quarter of that at 3,700 with twice the 'likes' at  1,800 

Perhaps we might now move on...
		
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Childish indeed! And logically faulty too!


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## Mudball (Sep 8, 2020)

drdel said:



			1) So no derogatory inference then?
2) Not an argument I gave you my reasons; you can ignore.

I'll just make a last and final, and, I admit, childish response / comment to you since you like facts...
You've posted 20,000 posts of which only 960 were 'liked'.
My post rate is only a quarter of that at 3,700 with twice the 'likes' at  1,800 

Perhaps we might now move on...
		
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what has this forum being reduced to .. 

In other news UK proposed banning social media 'likes' for children  ( 5 likes for the first person who can find that UK proposed this Ban but it was rejected by the evil EU empire)
https://www.deseret.com/2019/4/15/20670926/uk-proposes-banning-social-media-likes-for-children


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## Hacker Khan (Sep 8, 2020)

Mudball said:



			Another lefty taking aim at our Glorious Leader...  (he should be sent to live in the EU)

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-09-07...johnson-is-jeopardising-an-eu-free-trade-deal

Click to expand...

The stuff about Cummings and his tech obsession is very interesting.  I read and posted a very fascinating article ages ago about this and how he is thrall to how big tech companies operate and how he thinks the UK should become a world leader in this area and how he feels governments and layers of rules generally slows this down.

I do actually agree with him in a lot of what he was saying, and it is fascinating that he seems not to give a jot about fisheries and blue passports and Bulgarians getting our jobs and all the stuff the typical Brexiter gets worked up about.  To him it's all about making the UK into a tech leading nation. And you do wonder how much of the population would actually benefit from a tech heavy economy where automation replaces a lot of traditional jobs. Be careful what you wish for.....


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## User62651 (Sep 8, 2020)

Someone pointed out if the WA deal was now a bad deal perhaps all those 348 Conservative 'traitors' who voted for it in December in the Commons should now be sacked including the hapless PM? This was Johnson's deal, not May's, he won a GE on it and then got it through commons with his new MPs by selling it as brilliant and oven-ready, despite it being little different to May's thrice rejected deal.
The 10 Tories voting against the bill now must therefore be 'enlightened' heroes. 

Sweet Little Lies -
Video shows how the PM sold his 'brilliant deal' to the electorate -  Johnson's words, clearly knew it wasn't a great deal but lied to the country for personal gain in the ploy of changing the detail later, this was around the time he also lied to the Queen. He is a sham. There are plenty decent Tory MPs - how on earth did they pick this fraud of a man for PM, he is a disaster.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1302956004154445826


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 8, 2020)

maxfli65 said:



			Someone pointed out if the WA deal was now a bad deal perhaps all those 348 Conservative 'traitors' who voted for it in December in the Commons should now be sacked including the hapless PM? This was Johnson's deal, not May's, he won a GE on it and then got it through commons with his new MPs by selling it as brilliant and oven-ready, despite it being little different to May's thrice rejected deal.
The 10 Tories voting against the bill now must therefore be 'enlightened' heroes. 

Sweet Little Lies -
Video shows how the PM sold his 'brilliant deal' to the electorate -  Johnson's words, clearly knew it wasn't a great deal but lied to the country for personal gain in the ploy of changing the detail later, this was around the time he also lied to the Queen. He is a sham. There are plenty decent Tory MPs - how on earth did they pick this fraud of a man for PM, he is a disaster.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1302956004154445826

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That is the ultimate in irony  being called out for telling lies by Alistair Campbell. 

He and his equally odious little friend Tony  Bliar turned it into  an artform.


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## Ethan (Sep 8, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			That is the ultimate in irony  being called out for telling lies by Alistair Campbell.

He and his equally odious little friend Tony  Bliar turned it into  an artform.
		
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Well, that's politics. 

But which of the things Campbell said are untrue? Johnson is now raging against a deal he promoted and rushed through Parliament specifically avoiding scrutiny. That is irony. He either failed to understand it, or had no intention of ever following it. Neither is a great look for a PM.


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## Kellfire (Sep 8, 2020)

MetalMickie said:



			That is the ultimate in irony  being called out for telling lies by Alistair Campbell.

He and his equally odious little friend Tony  Bliar turned it into  an artform.
		
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WHATABOUTARYYYYYYYYYYYYY


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 8, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			WHATABOUTARYYYYYYYYYYYYY
		
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Not at all as I am in no way defending Johnson,  merely commenting on the irony of the situation.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 8, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Well, that's politics.

But which of the things Campbell said are untrue? Johnson is now raging against a deal he promoted and rushed through Parliament specifically avoiding scrutiny. That is irony. He either failed to understand it, or had no intention of ever following it. Neither is a great look for a PM.
		
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Is it not possible to find it ironic without being seen as defending Johnson?

Personally I see no significant difference between Blair and Campbell and Johnson and Cummings. All seem more than capable of telling whatever lies are necessary for their own political and personal gain.


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## Foxholer (Sep 8, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Well, that's politics.

But which of the things Campbell said are untrue?....
		
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Virtually everything related to Iraq's WMDs. Maybe not 'said', but certainly 'written'. And he and Blair have, imo, got the blood of a genuine and hard-working (but out of his depth when confronted by the 'government discrediting machine) scientist and public servant!


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## SocketRocket (Sep 8, 2020)

Kellfire said:



			WHATABOUTARYYYYYYYYYYYYY
		
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Is that another word for 'Opinion'


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## Mudball (Sep 8, 2020)

Hacker Khan said:



			The stuff about Cummings and his tech obsession is very interesting.  I read and posted a very fascinating article ages ago about this and how he is thrall to how big tech companies operate and* how he thinks the UK should become a world leader in this area *and how he feels governments and layers of rules generally slows this down.

I do actually agree with him in a lot of what he was saying, and it is fascinating that he seems not to give a jot about fisheries and blue passports and Bulgarians getting our jobs and all the stuff the typical Brexiter gets worked up about.  To him it's all about making the UK into a tech leading nation. And you do wonder how much of the population would actually benefit from a tech heavy economy where automation replaces a lot of traditional jobs. Be careful what you wish for.....
		
Click to expand...

 i would gladly be part of that.. however, it does not happen overnight and by destroying other sectors.  Not everyone will get a job or survive in the tech world.  we still need the other sectors.  
Rather than just raiding the civil service and tearing up treaties, It will require investments in schools (currently underfunded) and teaching.  Kids need STEAM education (underfunded), Tech cos need easy access to talent (means letting in immigrants), capital, favourable taxes. I struggle to recollect when was the last time a UK Govt of any colour has successfully delivered an IT project.  

Also what happens to the old and those who cannot adapt to the STEAM curriculum?  We could ship them to Spain or somewhere warmer perhaps.


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## Ethan (Sep 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Virtually everything related to Iraq's WMDs. Maybe not 'said', but certainly 'written'. And he and Blair have, imo, got the blood of a genuine and hard-working (but out of his depth when confronted by the 'government discrediting machine) scientist and public servant!
		
Click to expand...

But what did Campbell say ABOUT JOHNSON that is untrue?.

You win the Whatabouttery contest, but what about the current politics one?



MetalMickie said:



			Is it not possible to find it ironic without being seen as defending Johnson?

Personally I see no significant difference between Blair and Campbell and Johnson and Cummings. All seem more than capable of telling whatever lies are necessary for their own political and personal gain.
		
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There is one huge difference - 15 years. Now is now and then was then. One pair is a massive threat right now and the other pair is history. And homogenising criticisms into one soup of 'politicians lie' is always to make a massive moral equivalence and let the really bad ones off the hook. 

In my opinion, Campbell was an old-fashioned 'Thick Of It' style spin doctor, but Cummings is on a whole new level with the data manipulation, dark money and desire to tear everything apart and reform it in his image. Blair was a skilled politician whether you agree with some or all of his policies or not. I liked him to begin with, but then went off him. With the passage of time, though, as the standards of political behaviour have plummeted, I think he should be rehabilitated. George W Bush, too, funnily enough.   

Johnson is not a skilled politician, barely a politician at all, and has at best a tenuous idea of what he wants to do other than reward his patrons. He is very well connected, though, seems to have no moral compunction and is willing to sell his granny if it suits his agenda.


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## Mudball (Sep 8, 2020)

I am surprised that people are surprised that BoJo lies...  it is as if someone just heard that Trump was lying and that he called veterans as losers...   Why is this a suprise.

If you listen to the Campbell video with your eyes closed, you could replace BoJo with Trump and it would mean the same things...   'we have a TREMENDOUS deal for our country'


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## Beezerk (Sep 8, 2020)

What a thoroughly depressing thread this has turned into.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Sep 8, 2020)

Ethan said:



			But what did Campbell say ABOUT JOHNSON that is untrue?.

You win the Whatabouttery contest, but what about the current politics one?



There is one huge difference - 15 years. Now is now and then was then. One pair is a massive threat right now and the other pair is history. And homogenising criticisms into one soup of 'politicians lie' is always to make a massive moral equivalence and let the really bad ones off the hook.

In my opinion, Campbell was an old-fashioned 'Thick Of It' style spin doctor, but Cummings is on a whole new level with the data manipulation, dark money and desire to tear everything apart and reform it in his image. Blair was a skilled politician whether you agree with some or all of his policies or not. I liked him to begin with, but then went off him. With the passage of time, though, as the standards of political behaviour have plummeted, I think he should be rehabilitated. George W Bush, too, funnily enough.  

Johnson is not a skilled politician, barely a politician at all, and has at best a tenuous idea of what he wants to do other than reward his patrons. He is very well connected, though, seems to have no moral compunction and is willing to sell his granny if it suits his agenda.
		
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How many times?

 I am not defending Johnson who, particularly  on Europe, has shown himself to be devious and double dealing in going from being totally pro to full on Eurosceptic for political gain.

However  hell would have to freeze over before I could again take a positive view of Bliar and Campbell. 

Leading us into a  war based upon lies; I can think of nothing lower.


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## Foxholer (Sep 8, 2020)

Ethan said:



			But what did Campbell say ABOUT JOHNSON that is untrue?.

You win the Whatabouttery contest, but what about the current politics one?
...
		
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Ah! A somewhat tighter definition than what my reply was to.
It's quite possible that BoJo DID have an 'oven ready' deal - and that was the first 'offer' provided in the negotiations (Canadian style FTA and continuation of participation in all existing joint forums. But that would have been 'unacceptable' to EU negotiators, as it wouldn't provide sufficient disincentive to prevent other members going through the same/similar process!


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## Mudball (Sep 8, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			What a thoroughly depressing thread this has turned into.
		
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Pretty much sums up and reflects the state of the politics today...


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## Ethan (Sep 8, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Ah! A somewhat tighter definition than what my reply was to.
It's quite possible that BoJo DID have an 'oven ready' deal - and that was the first 'offer' provided in the negotiations (Canadian style FTA and continuation of participation in all existing joint forums. But that would have been 'unacceptable' to EU negotiators, as it wouldn't provide sufficient disincentive to prevent other members going through the same/similar process!
		
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But the deal he proclaimed as over ready and a great deal for the UK suddenly changed into a terrible deal which requires a breach of international law to remedy, even though nothing changed in it. He must be wrong about at least one of those positions, if not both.


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## PhilTheFragger (Sep 8, 2020)

Closed as per Mike's post of 8/9/2020 banning political threads (see top of OOB)


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