# No Trollies reasoning



## dejf (Nov 24, 2015)

In CR, playing for years, I have never seen ban of trollies. I have seen closed course in winter/bad conditions, I have seen banned buggies on wet days, but never ban trollies.

What could possibly be a reason for no trollies in wet conditions (temperature around 8-10C) ? Is there any biological aspect of wet grass/ground I am missing? From the physics point of view (pressure) I can't figure it out.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 24, 2015)

All depends on how much traffic and could also cause slip issues 

Hundred plus people playing with trollies on wet ground is going to cause issues


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## fundy (Nov 24, 2015)

Our course is on clay, using trolleys when its very wet/heavy causes untold damage. Means in winter trolleys are probably on less than half the time but the course definitely benefits from it come spring time


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## dejf (Nov 24, 2015)

What kind of damage is that? I just lack of imagination here 

I know about buggy damage, I have seen a buggy digging into the FW while wet. 
But trolley? The pressure is probably not the reason, so is it because of the way the wheels roll and make these (shallow) tracks?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 24, 2015)

dejf said:



			What kind of damage is that? I just lack of imagination here 

I know about buggy damage, I have seen a buggy digging into the FW while wet. 
But trolley? The pressure is probably not the reason, so is it because of the way the wheels roll and make these (shallow) tracks?
		
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He damage can be just as bad with trolleys because you get a lot more of a footfall going across the same areas


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## fundy (Nov 24, 2015)

dejf said:



			What kind of damage is that? I just lack of imagination here 

I know about buggy damage, I have seen a buggy digging into the FW while wet. 
But trolley? The pressure is probably not the reason, so is it because of the way the wheels roll and make these (shallow) tracks?
		
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Same sort of damage as buggies just not as severe, trolley wheels sinking in, even worse when people spin them, compounded by most people walking in the same places. Mainly a volume issue over wet patches of ground


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## Craigg (Nov 24, 2015)

Apparently this was Redditch Golf Club, next to the 7th green. Damage caused by 'Regular' Trolley wheels.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 24, 2015)

Craigg said:



			Apparently this was Redditch Golf Club, next to the 7th green. Damage caused by 'Regular' Trolley wheels.

View attachment 17694

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Yup - that's the problem.  Previous club had it - underlying soil was clay so didn't drain very well.  Often banned trolleys on a day-by-day basis according to the weather to prevent course getting churned into mud - even then some areas around greens and tees didn't even vaguely recover until well into the golfing season - May-June time.  A prudent measure for clubs to adopt over the non-comp period.  So you have to carry - well you take a few clubs out of your bag - and carry bags are inexpensive.


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## Fish (Nov 24, 2015)

When you see some trolleys bulging at the seams it's no wonder they have the ability of causing damage, unfortunately some people also can't be trusted to use there trolleys sensibly and follow roped areas and stay away from between the greens & bunkers, so the best thing to do when damage can be an issue is ban them and have carry only, this will affect the obvious main group of members at all clubs who are also possibly the main offenders!


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## dejf (Nov 24, 2015)

On the other hand, if you put those 15kg on back of a person, when walking, whole pressure is on 1 foot, that's like 95 kg, does this make less damage than 25 kg trolley with weight spread on 3 wheels? Would those damaged areas on the picture above be any better if people only walked there?


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## drdel (Nov 24, 2015)

So we put ropes and white lines thereby ensuring golfers *all *walk over the same area and then we wonder why the grass cuts up. If we're going to use ropes and/or lines then they should be moved frequently.

A word with any arable farmer will soon tell you why they try not to drive machinery across field using the same route.

Perhaps we should ban pesky golfers - they only cause the green keepers extra work.


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## Fish (Nov 24, 2015)

drdel said:



			So we put ropes and white lines thereby ensuring golfers *all *walk over the same area and then we wonder why the grass cuts up. If we're going to use ropes and/or lines then they should be moved frequently.

A word with any arable farmer will soon tell you why they try not to drive machinery across field using the same route.

Perhaps we should ban pesky golfers - they only cause the green keepers extra work.
		
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Our ropes are moved on a regular basis to ease the impact of excessive wear from areas especially when approaching greens and between greens & tees over the winter, any clubs greenstaff that don't apply this is there own in-house problem and members should be bringing it to the attention of the committee.


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## Craigg (Nov 24, 2015)

drdel said:



			So we put ropes and white lines thereby ensuring golfers *all *walk over the same area and then we wonder why the grass cuts up. If we're going to use ropes and/or lines then they should be moved frequently.

*A word with any arable farmer will soon tell you why they try not to drive machinery across field using the same route.*

Perhaps we should ban pesky golfers - they only cause the green keepers extra work.
		
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Err, I think you'll find they use tramlines 12 meters apart, so as to keep all the damage in the same place. This happens to be the width of the spray arms.


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## Crow (Nov 24, 2015)

It's mainly electric trolleys that cause the damage, the wheels find no traction so they start to spin and churn up the grass and mud.

Pull or push trolleys don't have quite the same problem as their wheels don't spin.


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## Fish (Nov 24, 2015)

Crow said:



			It's mainly electric trolleys that cause the damage, the wheels find no traction so they start to spin and churn up the grass and mud.

*Pull or push trolleys don't have quite the same problem as their wheels don't spin.*

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But they can slide when going up or down slopes or embankments creating the same kind of damage


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## Oxfordcomma (Nov 24, 2015)

On a slightly different tangent, I'd love to hear greenkeepers' takes on hedgehog and other winter wheels. Would make a good for/against type article for the mag I would have thought? Seems that some courses will allow trolleys with winter wheels in all but the most severe ground conditions whereas others seem to not even take them into consideration and have all or nothing rules. Possibly it's course specific but thinking about my local courses, there isn't much difference in the soil type between most of them.


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## upsidedown (Nov 24, 2015)

Craigg said:



			Err, I think you'll find they use tramlines 12 meters apart, so as to keep all the damage in the same place. This happens to be the width of the spray arms.
		
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drdel said:



			So we put ropes and white lines thereby ensuring golfers *all *walk over the same area and then we wonder why the grass cuts up. If we're going to use ropes and/or lines then they should be moved frequently.

*A word with any arable farmer will soon tell you why they try not to drive machinery across field using the same route*.

Perhaps we should ban pesky golfers - they only cause the green keepers extra work.
		
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Tramlines are mostly 24m and up 36 m theses days.

With most big farmers now running GPS controlled vehicles they will run in the same place time after time to minimise the compaction . So the vast majority of the traffic will run down the tramlines but the cultivators and combine will run on land that has been run on before in between them.


Really boggy/ problem ( as highlighted in the above example ) areas should be identified on courses then acted on by better drainage or  laying paths and then funneling the footfall to these areas.


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## Astraeus (Nov 24, 2015)

I am actually finding this education on arable farming more interesting than the (ironically) well-trodden original topic.


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## dejf (Nov 25, 2015)

Crow said:



			It's mainly electric trolleys that cause the damage, the wheels find no traction so they start to spin and churn up the grass and mud.

Pull or push trolleys don't have quite the same problem as their wheels don't spin.
		
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Very good point!



I have thought about it again and found two possible differences between walking and trolley golfer:

1) Friction force in the opposite direction to where the trolley goes - this does not happen with walkers. So, while using a trolley reduces the amount of force perpendicular to the ground, a small amount of force on the grass/ground is being made by trolley which is parallel to the ground. 

2) With trolley making shallow trails, this can actually cause water to accumulate in different places than usual. This can cause some damage. This is not happening with walkers since their marks in the ground are not 




 continuous.

I think 2) might causing some real problems, but I am not sure about it at all. I don't think 1) can cause a problem, but again, not sure about real world impact.


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## dejf (Nov 25, 2015)

Fish said:



			But they can slide when going up or down slopes or embankments creating the same kind of damage 

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And so can people ... so not a convincing one for me.


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## drdel (Nov 25, 2015)

dejf said:



			Very good point!



I have thought about it again and found two possible differences between walking and trolley golfer:

1) Friction force in the opposite direction to where the trolley goes - this does not happen with walkers. So, while using a trolley reduces the amount of force perpendicular to the ground, a small amount of force on the grass/ground is being made by trolley which is parallel to the ground. 

2) With trolley making shallow trails, this can actually cause water to accumulate in different places than usual. This can cause some damage. This is not happening with walkers since their marks in the ground are not 




 continuous.

I think 2) might causing some real problems, but I am not sure about it at all. I don't think 1) can cause a problem, but again, not sure about real world impact.
		
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I can give you a 3rd reason the trolley ban might be unwise; A significant proportion of regular golfers are retired; some of these people may not be able to carry their clubs for 18 holes !!


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## dejf (Nov 25, 2015)

drdel said:



			I can give you a 3rd reason the trolley ban might be unwise; A significant proportion of regular golfers are retired; some of these people may not be able to carry their clubs for 18 holes !!
		
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Actually, those points of mine were towards reasoning of trolley bans. But to comment on your reason - you do not need to be retired golfer for that ... I have tried carrying clubs on back myself yesterday (and I only took 5 clubs) and I won't try that again. My back is not in the best condition and did not help at all.

On the other hand - that can actually be a good reason for the trolley ban - because some people (like myself) won't enter the course on trolley ban day, so you simply get less traffic.


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## Rooter (Nov 25, 2015)

Not read all the replies, but if you use a trolley and go from green A to tee box B, there may only be one route suitable for trolleys, thus increasing traffic to a single area. Carrying would allow players to walk any which way they wanted, thus limiting the impact in a single 'pathway'.


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## dejf (Nov 25, 2015)

Rooter said:



			Not read all the replies, but if you use a trolley and go from green A to tee box B, there may only be one route suitable for trolleys, thus increasing traffic to a single area. Carrying would allow players to walk any which way they wanted, thus limiting the impact in a single 'pathway'.
		
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Quite a good point, specific to the design of the course, and possibly valid only for only a couple of holes here and there, but yes, sounds valid to me.


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## Astraeus (Nov 25, 2015)

Could it be the case that certain clubs _do_ suffer from the use of trolleys in the winter (such as those with a clay undersoil) but others do not, and simply adopt the ban on the assumption that they are of greater detriment to the course than would be the case with foot traffic?  I am yet to hear a compelling and definitive reason for the ban being in force at the majority of clubs and the absence of such, after many years of bans being in place, suggests that it is groupthink rather than a genuine risk assessment which has led to the ubiquity of bans.

For me, I can't see that having the weight spread over three wheels which are either moving constantly or at rest on a piece of ground nowhere close to the playing surface can be any worse than people standing, in studded shoes, on the playing surface for 10, 20 or 30 seconds whilst they perform pre-shot routines or indeed simply walking in those same studded shoes all over the course.


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## MashieNiblick (Nov 27, 2015)

I found this a little while ago when looking for anything on the relative benefit of hedgehogs. It doesn't cover that but does look at the difference between carrying, electric trollies and buggies.

http://www.englandgolf.org/documents/STRI_Wear_Study_EGU_Wear_trial.pdf

A bit technical and long winded and a lot of description of the methodology but the conclusion seems to be that there isn't a lot of difference between carrying and trolleys but that carts do cause a lot of damage. 



Rooter said:



			Not read all the replies, but if you use a trolley and go from green A to tee box B, there may only be one route suitable for trolleys, thus increasing traffic to a single area. Carrying would allow players to walk any which way they wanted, thus limiting the impact in a single 'pathway'.
		
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I actually think this is an important consideration not really covered by the study.


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## dejf (Nov 27, 2015)

MashieNiblick said:



			I found this a little while ago when looking for anything on the relative benefit of hedgehogs. It doesn't cover that but does look at the difference between carrying, electric trollies and buggies.

http://www.englandgolf.org/documents/STRI_Wear_Study_EGU_Wear_trial.pdf

A bit technical and long winded and a lot of description of the methodology but the conclusion seems to be that there isn't a lot of difference between carrying and trolleys but that carts do cause a lot of damage.
		
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Very interesting study! It seems to me that the electric trolley in the study is OK also because flat land was tested. It might be the case that if the test was done in a hilly terrain, the electric trolley might perform differently (compared to non-electric one). On a flat land, I would assume that most of the effects are due to a downward pressure caused by the moving object. The results suggest this might be the case. On a hilly terrain, however, there might be some other aspects that this study would not reveal.

Yet still, it is the best objective data on this topic so far.


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## dejf (Nov 30, 2015)

Any experiences with Powakaddy Winter Wheels - http://www.powakaddy.co.uk/product/winter-wheels/ ?


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## North Mimms (Nov 30, 2015)

dejf said:



			Any experiences with Powakaddy Winter Wheels - http://www.powakaddy.co.uk/product/winter-wheels/ ?
		
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My old club (where Delc is also a member) used to have regular trolley bans in the winter.
The course is built on clay.

A few years ago they decided to exempt pull trolleys with hedgehogs from a ban. Plain wheeled trolleys would not be alllowed.
After a year or two, this was extended to allow leccy trolleys with hedgehogs at any time.

This was very popular with the member who struggled to carry, and many (myself included) got HH wheels for my motocaddy

The upshot is that the course is played nearly as heavily in the winter as in the summer. It no longer gets the "rest" it used to get during winter trolley bans, and the course got extremely muddy during the last couple of winters. It was one reason why we decided to look to move to a better draining course. I accept that at my new course, there may well be times when I have to carry a half set or not play at all


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