# Martin McGuinness hero or villian?



## Deleted Member 1156 (Mar 21, 2017)

Very much a man of two lives, how do you view this controversial character?


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## patricks148 (Mar 21, 2017)

Villian.


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 21, 2017)

If this thread goes sour like the one closed this morning, then infractions will be handed out.

You have been warned


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2017)

Villian


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## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2017)

I think the way he turned his life around and embraced the peace process, especially with Paisley, towards the end of his political career was admirable and I am thankful that eventually he helped to bring Northern Ireland to the most stable and united position it has been in my life time.

Do I forgive his actions as part of the IRA? No, I certainly do not. Do I understand them? Yes I do.

I've seen him compared to Nelson Mandela and that is a fair comparison for me - both were involved in the killing of innocents that they felt were justified when battling the suppression or even subjugation of their culture and kin. I don't think everyone fully understands what it was like as a working class Catholic who felt they were Irish in the middle of the 20th century as it's part of the story that rarely gets told.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 21, 2017)

Mostly one but some of the other...


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## User20205 (Mar 21, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			I think the way he turned his life around and embraced the peace process, especially with Paisley, towards the end of his political career was admirable and I am thankful that eventually he helped to bring Northern Ireland to the most stable and united position it has been in my life time.

Do I forgive his actions as part of the IRA? No, I certainly do not. Do I understand them? Yes I do.

I've seen him compared to Nelson Mandela and that is a fair comparison for me - both were involved in the killing of innocents that they felt were justified when battling the suppression or even subjugation of their culture and kin. I don't think everyone fully understands what it was like as a working class Catholic who felt they were Irish in the middle of the 20th century as it's part of the story that rarely gets told.
		
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absolutely this 

it's never as black & white, never as clear cut as portrayed by some


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 21, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			I think the way he turned his life around and embraced the peace process, especially with Paisley, towards the end of his political career was admirable and I am thankful that eventually he helped to bring Northern Ireland to the most stable and united position it has been in my life time.

Do I forgive his actions as part of the IRA? No, I certainly do not. Do I understand them? Yes I do.

I've seen him compared to Nelson Mandela and that is a fair comparison for me - both were involved in the killing of innocents that they felt were justified when battling the suppression or even subjugation of their culture and kin. I don't think everyone fully understands what it was like as a working class Catholic who felt they were Irish in the middle of the 20th century as it's part of the story that rarely gets told.
		
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I think that sums it up very well 

The comparison to Mandela is fair - when it comes to Mandela some saw him as Terrorist and some saw him as a freedom fighter. Is that the same with McGuiness


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## drdel (Mar 21, 2017)

I accept that he attempted to do good in later years but I'm afraid I can't move past his past.


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## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2017)

drdel said:



			I accept that he attempted to do good in later years but I'm afraid I can't move past his past.
		
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And we shouldn't. 

But we MUST learn from it.


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## User62651 (Mar 21, 2017)

People mellow with age, maturity perhaps let him see the futility of terrorism as a means to achieve political aims. Hero or villain? - depends which flag you fly and if you have been directly or indirectly affected by 'the troubles' I would think, I have not so can't say. 
Agree his good terms with late Rev Paisley was a surprise, but a welcome one, showed that compromise and dialogue can work.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2017)

drdel said:



			I accept that he attempted to do good in later years but I'm afraid I can't move past his past.
		
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This is my issue, he never once confessed or faced justice for the crimes he committed and I'm with Lord Tebbit, it's wrong to compare him to Mandella, Mandella lived in a country were blacks had no vote and no say, McGuiness chose bullets over democracy.


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## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2017)

Democracy wasn't helping Catholics in Northern Ireland. Even the formation of NI was completely wrong in their eyes.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			Democracy wasn't helping Catholics in Northern Ireland. Even the formation of NI was completely wrong in their eyes.
		
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I get that, still different situation to SA, and there are still Catholic families who don't know where the bodies of there loved ones are, "The disappeared" it's not just the Unionists who suffered on his watch.


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## MegaSteve (Mar 21, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			But we MUST learn from it.
		
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Spot on!

One day we might even realise it would be better to skip the fighting and head straight to the peace process..


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2017)

Both.  Today I choose to consider NI as it is today and not how it was.  And for both better and for worse McGuinness has been instrumental in NI being the community that it is today.  An angry, violent and at times murderous NI existed before MMcG came on the scene.  It is much less so today.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 21, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			An angry, violent and at times murderous NI existed before MMcG came on the scene.
		
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MMcG helped to create that anger and violence. He was at the heart of it. He may have dowsed the flames by the end but he created wildfires all over N.Ireland and the British mainland. 

90-10 split for me but at least he got there in the end.


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## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			He was at the heart of it.
		
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Or from another point of view, he was sick of seeing a massive proportion of Northern Irish people being treated like dirt by the government...


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			Or from another point of view, he was sick of seeing a massive proportion of Northern Irish people being treated like dirt by the government...
		
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So it was ok to murder children (Warrington, Wildenrath) rather than using democracy?


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## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			So it was ok to murder children (Warrington, Wildenrath) rather than using democracy?
		
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No, I don't believe so but obviously some people thought that a short term loss of life would be worth the many millions of lives that would be improved if they managed to gain an equal footing in society.


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## Lord Tyrion (Mar 21, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			So it was ok to murder children (Warrington, Wildenrath) rather than using democracy?
		
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And that is the crux of the matter. One side sees that, the other doesn't. 

I grew up just a few miles from Warrington and was not much older than the two boys who were murdered. Tim Parry, the father of one of the boys, is a staggering man, amazing in his commitment to peace. I have no time for the honours system but if I did that man would get the biggest one I could give him.


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## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			One side sees that, the other doesn't.
		
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Disagree entirely. It isn't that one sides see it and one doesn't; it's that one side (those for a realistic peace) want to move on from the mistakes of the past on BOTH sides and that involves swallowing MANY bitter pills for lasting peace. 

The other side is more hung up on getting what they perceive as justice that they'd rather keep Northern Ireland living in the dark days, just to avoid "them 'uns" getting anything they want.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			Disagree entirely. It isn't that one sides see it and one doesn't; it's that one side (those for a realistic peace) want to move on from the mistakes of the past on BOTH sides and that involves swallowing MANY bitter pills for lasting peace. 

The other side is more hung up on getting what they perceive as justice that they'd rather keep Northern Ireland living in the dark days, just to avoid "them 'uns" getting anything they want.
		
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So why are we chasing the Soldiers involved in The Bloody Sunday shootings, which side is after justice for that?


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## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			So why are we chasing the Soldiers involved in The Bloody Sunday shootings, which side is after justice for that?
		
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Another issue I'm in two minds over; I tend to fall JUST on the side of those who want those soldiers held to account simply because the British government must be held to a higher standard than terrorists and it was they who abused their authority and power in the first place to cause the divide in the first place.

In an ideal world both sides would agree to move on and to stop the historic enquiries.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			Another issue I'm in two minds over; I tend to fall JUST on the side of those who want those soldiers held to account simply because the British government must be held to a higher standard than terrorists and it was they who abused their authority and power in the first place to cause the divide in the first place.

In an ideal world both sides would agree to move on and to stop the historic enquiries.
		
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I can see your side, for me it should be both sides coming clean or neither and we move on.
One of the terrorists freed after the Good Friday agreement had served 16 months of a 407yr sentence.
It seems to me we have different rules for both sides.


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## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			I can see your side, for me it should be both sides coming clean or neither and we move on.
One of the terrorists freed after the Good Friday agreement had served 16 months of a 407yr sentence.
It seems to me we have different rules for both sides.
		
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Finding the balance is incredibly tough. My mum text me this morning and she amazed me by highlighting how McGuinness had turned his life around at the end. I expected her to be very much "Good riddance". If a bitter old unionist like my mum can see the light at the end of the dark tunnel, then I think we have a chance for lasting peace back home.


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## Fish (Mar 21, 2017)

Villian & murderer, and I hope Adams joins him sooner rather than later.  I've experienced both of them first hand a number of times, and as for comparing him to Mandela's fight, which I disagree with, why was he (McGuiness) ordering the deaths of those in INLA who were supposedly fighting for the same thing?

I never came back from 1 tour ( I did 3 in total) without the loss of 1 or more friends and at that time, other than INLA, nothing happened without his say-so. 

So for me he was a terrorist and murderer of the highest order, nothing else IMO, and it sickened me when he shook the queen's hand.

How could you ever forgive or justify this


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## Scoobiesnax (Mar 21, 2017)

Fish said:



			Villian & murderer, and I hope Adams joins him sooner rather than later.  I've experienced both of them first hand a number of times, and as for comparing him to Mandela's fight, which I disagree with, why was he (McGuiness) ordering the deaths of those in INLA who were supposedly fighting for the same thing?

I never came back from 1 tour ( I did 3 in total) without the loss of 1 or more friends and at that time, other than INLA, nothing happened without his say-so. 

So for me he was a terrorist and murderer of the highest order, nothing else IMO, and it sickened me when he shook the queen's hand.

How could you ever forgive or justify this

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I couldn't agree more......the man was evil; and at the end decided to repent to save his soul; good aulde Christian!!

The people in Northern Ireland still live in hatred or the DUP and Sinn Fein IRA wouldn't be the two biggest parties in the NI Assembly!

edit: The best way to repent was to come clean on what he had done in the past but alas he's taken that to the grave!


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## Dellboy (Mar 21, 2017)

The man was evil and we are all better off now he has gone.


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## User20205 (Mar 21, 2017)

the problem is that, and maybe the major difference to South Africa, is that there hasn't been a truth and reconciliation process. That is why actions from the past are still relevant today, there has been no attempt at a healing process. 

I'm not going to google it but both side have responsibility for the atrocities


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## user2010 (Mar 21, 2017)

Rot in Hell, scumbag.


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## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2017)

Woke up this morning thinking there just might be a God. Man was never made to pay for his crimes and his sidekick during his time in command is now the prosecuter chasing members of the armed forces who have already gone through a full judicial process.


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## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Woke up this morning thinking there just might be a God. Man was never made to pay for his crimes and his sidekick during his time in command is now the prosecuter chasing members of the armed forces who have already gone through a full judicial process.
		
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So do you believe that Martin McGuinness, Gerry Adams et al should be made to pay for their crimes but the armed forces shouldn't be held accountable for theirs? Both sides committed crimes, both lied about them but only one had the British Government helping to cover it up...


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## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			So do you believe that Martin McGuinness, Gerry Adams et al should be made to pay for their crimes but the armed forces shouldn't be held accountable for theirs? Both sides committed crimes, both lied about them but only one had the British Government helping to cover it up...
		
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Every round fired by a member of the armed forces was investigated and anyone who was injured or killed during an action had the benefit of a full judicial review which was more than those I had the displeasure to pack up in black body bags, most being innocent women and children.

Tell me were your information has come from that confirms that members of the armed forces lied.

I don't know if you are old enough or informed enough to know that we went in the protect and assist the Catholic population and was reasonably successful until McGinnes and his gangs realised he was about to lose his power base so decided on a rain of murder against a- mostly- civilian population.


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## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Tell me were your information has come from that confirms that members of the armed forces lied.
		
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It's well known that there were cover ups and collusion with paramilitaries, the armed forces and the government of the time.


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## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2017)

Kellfire said:



			It's well known that there were cover ups and collusion with paramilitaries, the armed forces and the government of the time.
		
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If it well known let's see the reliable source or are you just going on unproved media reports.

If you have the proof the PSNI will be only to willing to receive it.


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## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2017)

Multiple inquiries have shown collusion happened. I assume you're just trying to get a reaction.


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## Old Skier (Mar 21, 2017)

No reaction required but I would like to finally point out that I am only responding to unfounded allegations being made on the thread about members of the armed forces. I am not interested in what coverups may have been sanctioned to protect terrorists or the government of the day.


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## Hobbit (Mar 21, 2017)

As part of the peace process numerous proven murderers were released, and some not prosecuted at all.

And now soldiers are being hounded.

Adams is an hypocrit.

As for McGuinness; he's someone's son, husband and father and those people are suffering right now. I wish them comfort. But for Martin McGuinness...best not say.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 21, 2017)

Fish said:



			Villian & murderer, and I hope Adams joins him sooner rather than later.  I've experienced both of them first hand a number of times, and as for comparing him to Mandela's fight, which I disagree with, why was he (McGuiness) ordering the deaths of those in INLA who were supposedly fighting for the same thing?

I never came back from 1 tour ( I did 3 in total) without the loss of 1 or more friends and at that time, other than INLA, nothing happened without his say-so. 

So for me he was a terrorist and murderer of the highest order, nothing else IMO, and it sickened me when he shook the queen's hand.

How could you ever forgive or justify this

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You can forgive if you really want to.  It is very difficult but you can.  That does not mean that you forget.


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## davemc1 (Mar 21, 2017)

Best to be careful what we say on this topic. It could get as controversial as the what biscuits are best thread...


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## richart (Mar 21, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You can forgive if you really want to.  It is very difficult but you can.  That does not mean that you forget.
		
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You can say in public you have forgiven, but some things in my experience are unforgiveable.


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## chrisd (Mar 21, 2017)

He should never be forgiven, he has blood on his hands and never paid the price for what he did


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## Bunkermagnet (Mar 21, 2017)

Never liked him or his cohorts. Another use of religion to wage war and terror. 
However I have to accept the peace process has given the Irish as a whole some semblance of peace and stability which is good and what Ireland needs, and for that McGuiness must be applauded. 
I do think though a lot more credit needs to be given vioce to Mo Mowlam when she was the NI secretary, if ever there was a brave minister she was it.
As far as the digging for atrocities,  I feel if one side is being pardoned so should the other. Wipe the slate clean if you want, just apply the same process to all parties.

What recent Afganistan inquiries have shown us that just as in politics, vested interests will always alter the outlook and colour the scene the way they want it coloured.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 21, 2017)

The slate should have been wiped clean after the Saville Enquiry and Peace Process was concluded. Cannot have pardons on one side of the fence only.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 21, 2017)

Listening to my PP today he was a villain. to hear the comparisons between him and Mandela, I don't get.
Mandela was from a country where him and his people were the majority and persecuted for the colour of there skin. They were native to that country.  They were supported throughout the world and not just with sanctions.
McGuiness and friends were not
Having said all that, I never have been a lover of violence to reach ones goal, especially when there are other means. Martin Luther King and Ghandi prove that


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## Kellfire (Mar 21, 2017)

McGuinness was in a country where he was persecuted for his religion and political opinion. The fact he wasn't supported by the outside world was irrelevant to him.


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## MarkE (Mar 21, 2017)

He was a terrorist, end of story. Whatever he contributed to the peace process later in life was all on the back of the misery he inflicted on innocents in his formative years. Good riddance I say.


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## Foxholer (Mar 21, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Very much a man of two lives, how do you view this controversial character?
		
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Both villain AND (near) hero imo!

No different from some other 'terrorists' who morphed into political leaders - there are so many examples!!

However, comparison with Mandela is ridiculous! No-one else suffered over a quarter of a century of confinement in an obscene establishment, then emerged without bitterness eventually establishing a 'truth and reconciliation' regime! The greatest 'statesman' of our generation imo! Shame southern Africa has returned to the tribalism Wilbur Smith predicted!


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## jusme (Mar 21, 2017)

One mans terrorist is anothers.......

It never ceases to surprise me how we mostly all become entrenched into one opinion or another. There rarely seems room for, or desire even to consider that of another. So black and white in a grey world. 

There are hundreds of thousands of people who consider him positively. It can't be ignored.


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## Beezerk (Mar 21, 2017)

Scum doesn't come close, I'll never forgive the Queen for shaking his hand, poor decision on her part.


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## stevek1969 (Mar 21, 2017)

I was on Facebook earlier and people were calling him all sorts ,the question was asked how many of them had been to Ireland the answer was a big fat zero, all sticking in there wee opinions with out knowing the truth behind the man or the politics of the country, was he still involved in terrorism up until his death ?. He did some committed some seriously bad crimes but must have realised that moving into politics would keep him out jail, the alliance with Paisley was a surreal one. He was a villian but as said he was a husband, father and grandfather who suffering just now.


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## MarkE (Mar 21, 2017)

jusme said:



			One mans terrorist is anothers.......

It never ceases to surprise me how we mostly all become entrenched into one opinion or another. There rarely seems room for, or desire even to consider that of another. So black and white in a grey world. 

There are hundreds of thousands of people who consider him positively. It can't be ignored.
		
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So because he had many supporters we have to be ok with the violence and carnage committed by him and his like?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2017)

stevek1969 said:



			I was on Facebook earlier and people were calling him all sorts ,the question was asked how many of them had been to Ireland the answer was a big fat zero, all sticking in there wee opinions with out knowing the truth behind the man or the politics of the country, was he still involved in terrorism up until his death ?. He did some committed some seriously bad crimes but must have realised that moving into politics would keep him out jail, the alliance with Paisley was a surreal one. He was a villian but as said he was a husband, father and grandfather who suffering just now.
		
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Why does it matter if any of those calling him all sorts had been to Ireland or not? The troubles weren't confined to Ireland.


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## Val (Mar 21, 2017)

I think what Colin Party said was very appropriate 

Never forgive, never forget BUT respect the man he became.

I'm in neither camp, lots of nonsense said by both camps but one thing is for sure he helped shape Belfast twice, one ugly no go zone and one that I will happily return to for a visit, I'd like to think he helped do a good job on the later that took him and many others to rethink their views.


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## stevek1969 (Mar 21, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Why does it matter if any of those calling him all sorts had been to Ireland or not? The troubles weren't confined to Ireland.
		
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I never said they were confined to Ireland did i ? They were commenting on a countries politics they never been to or had a clue about


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2017)

stevek1969 said:



			I never said they were confined to Ireland did i ? They were commenting on a countries politics they never been to or had a clue about
		
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Here's what you said:

the question was asked how many of them had been to Ireland the answer was a big fat zero, all sticking in there wee opinions with out knowing the truth behind the man or the politics of the country.

Simply asking why they'd need to have visited Ireland to know the truth etc


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## stevek1969 (Mar 21, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Here's what you said:

the question was asked how many of them had been to Ireland the answer was a big fat zero, all sticking in there wee opinions with out knowing the truth behind the man or the politics of the country.

Simply asking why they'd need to have visited Ireland to know the truth etc
		
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Do you know the truth ? because what they no is what they've read on the news or in papers ,actually being over there and getting the real truths is a big difference wouldn't you say


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2017)

stevek1969 said:



			Do you know the truth ? because what they no is what they've read on the news or in papers ,actually being over there and getting the real truths is a big difference wouldn't you say
		
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I have been over there yes, I also had a very good mate Micky Robbins blown up and killed while he slept in his bed in Mill Hill, London on 1st August 1988 and the Camp I was based at in Dusseldorf Germany was blown up so experienced the IRA quite close to home and an educated person can get real truths without having to visit Ireland, I take it everyone who's compared him to Mandella has been to S Africa?


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## stevek1969 (Mar 21, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			I have been over there yes, I also had a very good mate Micky Robbins blown up and killed while he slept in his bed in Mill Hill, London on 1st August 1988 and the Camp I was based at in Dusseldorf Germany was blown up so experienced the IRA quite close to home and an educated person can get real truths without having to visit Ireland, I take it everyone who's compared him to Mandella has been to S Africa?
		
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i didn't mention Mandela did i, no ,did i say they were educated no i did not , my mates uncle was killed in cold blood for not paying protection money by said group , i'll leave it at that


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 21, 2017)

stevek1969 said:



			i didn't mention Mandela did i, no ,did i say they were educated no i did not , my mates uncle was killed in cold blood for not paying protection money by said group , i'll leave it at that
		
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Genuinely wasn't having a go steve, just didn't understand the point about people needing to have visited Ireland to have a say, sorry for your mates loss.


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## jusme (Mar 22, 2017)

No one's view or opinion should be silenced, however I think there is some merit in this point. I've seen things stated and argued on other platforms today which are wildly inaccurate. On exploring these points they are getting their information from things they 'have read or heard' 

Certainly not saying you have to be immersed with in it to have a qualified view or opinion as many people I imagine are well informed from other avenues or direct experiences.  I have lived in Belfast or the Belfast area for over 40 years and that direct exposure and 'living with' the impact, whether negative or positive is a real experience that shapes not only your opinion but your life in many ways.


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## Khamelion (Mar 22, 2017)

A leopard can't change its spots, no matter what front he put forth publically towards the end, behind that front he had no morals, a distinct lack of empathy and to his last breath a terrorist.


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## SocketRocket (Mar 22, 2017)

If you murder people then you are a murderer and should pay the appropriate price for that crime.   If you have paid your price and then go on to do good things, while repenting your previous life then it's fair to say you have tried to make amends.   If you murder people and turn to politics as there is no where else to go then you are still a murderer and deserve no pity.


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## Snelly (Mar 22, 2017)

Fish said:



			Villian & murderer, and I hope Adams joins him sooner rather than later.  I've experienced both of them first hand a number of times, and as for comparing him to Mandela's fight, which I disagree with, why was he (McGuiness) ordering the deaths of those in INLA who were supposedly fighting for the same thing?

I never came back from 1 tour ( I did 3 in total) without the loss of 1 or more friends and at that time, other than INLA, nothing happened without his say-so. 

So for me he was a terrorist and murderer of the highest order, nothing else IMO, and it sickened me when he shook the queen's hand.

How could you ever forgive or justify this

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Well said.  I agree.

I look forward to seeing the rest of the murdering, scumbag gangsters from that era, on both sides of the religious divide, joining him sooner rather than later.  Good riddance.  The world will be a better place with them all gone.


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## bluewolf (Mar 22, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			If you murder people then you are a murderer and should pay the appropriate price for that crime.   If you have paid your price and then go on to do good things, while repenting your previous life then it's fair to say you have tried to make amends.   If you murder people and turn to politics as there is no where else to go then you are still a murderer and deserve no pity.
		
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Can't argue with that.


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2017)




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## Foxholer (Mar 22, 2017)

Old Skier said:



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Rather spoilt by the bad spelling!


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## Old Skier (Mar 22, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			Rather spoilt by the bad spelling!
		
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Minor detail but 9/10 for observation.


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