# Bust



## robinthehood (Nov 21, 2018)

My golf club.  Potters bar. Has closed ... I knew they were struggling but didn't realise it was quite so bad. I guess if you don't move with the times you'll struggle


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 21, 2018)

Always sad to hear of a club closing, especially as jobs are likely to be lost. What do you think brought about this situation? I know the obvious answer is a lack of members but what led to this?


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## robinthehood (Nov 21, 2018)

For a long time it was a Jewish only course  . It probably left it too late to try and change.


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## Mr Hip (Nov 21, 2018)

Wasn't the young Tony Jacklin an assistant there? Always sad to lose a club.


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## Wolf (Nov 21, 2018)

Always sad to hear that, is it going to be a complete closure or is there possibility of a buy out or administrators coming in. Or even worse is it likely to be the next housing project


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## robinthehood (Nov 21, 2018)

Wolf said:



			Always sad to hear that, is it going to be a complete closure or is there possibility of a buy out or administrators coming in. Or even worse is it likely to be the next housing project
		
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No idea,only found out as a mate saw it on Twitter! Its prime land and only 20 mins from Kings cross.


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## Wolf (Nov 21, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			No idea,only found out as a mate saw it on Twitter! Its prime land and only 20 mins from Kings cross.
		
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Now that's a really sad state of affairs finding out thru social media. 
With that location prime for development


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## Robster59 (Nov 21, 2018)

Really sorry to hear that, especially finding it out that way.  Not a new club either, established only a year after ours.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 21, 2018)

Heard it on twitter earlier today. I played there many years ago as my mums worked for Canada Life and their boss was a member there. Nice course. Shame its gone


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## Lincoln Quaker (Nov 21, 2018)

Another club gone to the wall, we have had 2 in Lincolnshire close in the last few weeks.

Letâ€™s just hope more people take up the game and join a club rather than been nomad.


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## Wolf (Nov 21, 2018)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			Another club gone to the wall, we have had 2 in Lincolnshire close in the last few weeks.

Letâ€™s just hope more people take up the game and join a club rather than been nomad.
		
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Out of interest which 2


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## Lincoln Quaker (Nov 21, 2018)

Wolf said:



			Out of interest which 2
		
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Canwick Park in Lincoln and Immingham.


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## Wolf (Nov 21, 2018)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			Canwick Park in Lincoln and Immingham.
		
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Sad times 2 clubs in one county going so close together in timescales.


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## Lilyhawk (Nov 21, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			My golf club.  Potters bar. Has closed ... I knew they were struggling but didn't realise it was quite so bad. I guess if you don't move with the times you'll struggle
		
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Thatâ€™s a real shame. Iâ€™m â€down the roadâ€ at Mill Hill if you fancy a round. 

Looked at playing Potters Bar several times but never got around to it.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Nov 21, 2018)

Wolf said:



			Sad times 2 clubs in one county going so close together in timescales.
		
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Totally agree, by all accounts immingham has done well to last till now, someone told me the seniors section have been cutting the greens all summer.

Hats off to them if thatâ€™s the case.

I think some clubs need to take a good look at themselves to stay in business.


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## robinthehood (Nov 21, 2018)

Cheers it's a nice course.  A little quirky but always in decent nick. 30 years ago you couldn't get a game there . Times change but they didn't really.  
Its not like there is a ton of competition  nearby


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## Wolf (Nov 21, 2018)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			Totally agree, by all accounts immingham has done well to last till now, someone told me the seniors section have been cutting the greens all summer.

Hats off to them if thatâ€™s the case.

I think some clubs need to take a good look at themselves to stay in business.
		
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Fair play to the old boys for doing that to keep it going, but sadly that was probably start of the demise as once they've got to that point it's beyond help. 

Clubs do need to look at themselves more as a business than just a club nothing can survive without profits or on sentiment


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## User 99 (Nov 21, 2018)

Excuse my ignorance here but what happens after a club closes ? Does the clubhouse just shut, does the course just overgrow, what about the machinery ? Do the greens staff get paid off ?


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## robinthehood (Nov 21, 2018)

I know some get re opened under new owners . Brentwood for example otherwise I guess it will get sold off piece meal to settle up with creditors. Its a great bit of land that's for sure. If they got planning they could build some lovely posh houses . Just a short walk from the train station for access to the city


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## Bunkermagnet (Nov 21, 2018)

Lincoln Quaker said:



			I think some clubs need to take a good look at themselves to stay in business.
		
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It's not just clubs that need to examine themselves, how about those members who up sticks because of a slight increase, or because another club is doing a special offer for 18 months, and you know the boot iwll be on the other foot after that time.

Its all our responsibilities if we want to keep these clubs going, their actions and our support.


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## robinthehood (Nov 21, 2018)

No one owes any golf club a living. Its not 1950.
 in a world where we're encouraged to shop around for the best deals why should golf be a special case ?


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## patricks148 (Nov 22, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Cheers it's a nice course.  A little quirky but always in decent nick. 30 years ago you couldn't get a game there . Times change but they didn't really. 
Its not like there is a ton of competition  nearby
		
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i didn't play golf back then but my Bother did and i remember him and his mates having que  up at the local Muni's, Batchwood hall in St Albans and Stockwood park in Luton at 6am just to get out for a game in the 80's and 90's. but in those days you just couldn't get into a private members club around there.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 22, 2018)

RandG said:



			Excuse my ignorance here but what happens after a club closes ? Does the clubhouse just shut, does the course just overgrow, what about the machinery ? Do the greens staff get paid off ?
		
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It depends if there is any money left in the club for an administrator to work with or whether the sale of the club would generate money to cover those costs. My club went into administration two years ago, over the winter. They closed the clubhouse and laid off the clubhouse staff, pro etc. They kept the greenkeepers though as they believed, correctly, that they could sell the site as a golf course still. This kept people using the course and so it was viable to sell. Once sold the clubhouse was re opened.

If there is no money and no prospect of it remaining as a golf course then the chances are everyone would be laid off. No reason for the administrator to spend money maintaining a course when that will not bring in money for the creditors. The administrator would sell off all equipment, fittings etc. to whoever offers the most, or any, money.

The biggest losers are always the staff.


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## robinthehood (Nov 22, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			i didn't play golf back then but my Bother did and i remember him and his mates having que  up at the local Muni's, Batchwood hall in St Albans and Stockwood park in Luton at 6am just to get out for a game in the 80's and 90's. but in those days you just couldn't get into a private members club around there.
		
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These days those same private clubs are falling over themselves in an effort to get new members.  All can be played easily as a visitor.  Some are even on tee off times


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## DRW (Nov 22, 2018)

Cant help to wonder whether these feeder to courses to the 'better' courses, will have an affect  to the 'better' courses membership pools in years to come.

Sad to hear another 3 courses closed.


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## USER1999 (Nov 22, 2018)

Was Potters bar a members club, or a commercial outfit?


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## duncan mackie (Nov 22, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			Was Potters bar a members club, or a commercial outfit?
		
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I believe it was a members club, on members share basis, with an elected management board.
Whether it was all wrapped into a limited company or not will impact member liabilities and/or asset shares.
However, the original post isn't really consistent with either of these ie you would expect all members to be well aware of developments!


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## robinthehood (Nov 22, 2018)

I was aware they had issues but the recent agm produced a plan to move the club forward.  So it was a surprise that it closed so suddenly.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 22, 2018)

You have a lot a very good courses nearby as well - Hadley Wood , Old Ford Manor and Drynham Park - excellent clubs


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## robinthehood (Nov 22, 2018)

Indeed no shortage of courses in this part of the world. I'll probably wait till after winter now and just pay and play for a bit.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 22, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			I was aware they had issues but the recent agm produced a plan to move the club forward.  So it was a surprise that it closed so suddenly.
		
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It may be a move to protect the members, whoever is in charge of the club, whoever is liable for the debt etc. Another review of the figures may have highlighted a downward spiral that was unlikely to be reversed and so the safest option was this. 

Not all clubs or businesses go under owing money. Some wind up with money in the bank but do so in an orderly fashion, paying all outstanding debts. It may be that the committee have been pro-active and no debts are left behind.


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## USER1999 (Nov 22, 2018)

Does the land belong to the club, or is it leased?


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## patricks148 (Nov 22, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You have a lot a very good courses nearby as well - Hadley Wood , Old Ford Manor and Drynham Park - excellent clubs
		
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whats happening to the land at Hadley Wood? thats part of the site of the battle of Barnet 1471, so wonder if they would be allowed to build on it?


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## OOB (Nov 22, 2018)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It depends if there is any money left in the club for an administrator to work with or whether the sale of the club would generate money to cover those costs. My club went into administration two years ago, over the winter. They closed the clubhouse and laid off the clubhouse staff, pro etc. They kept the greenkeepers though as they believed, correctly, that they could sell the site as a golf course still. This kept people using the course and so it was viable to sell. Once sold the clubhouse was re opened.

If there is no money and no prospect of it remaining as a golf course then the chances are everyone would be laid off. No reason for the administrator to spend money maintaining a course when that will not bring in money for the creditors. The administrator would sell off all equipment, fittings etc. to whoever offers the most, or any, money.

The biggest losers are always the staff.
		
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I don't know the ins and outs of the closure, as it was well before my time in this area, but North Weald golf club has bits and pieces of it left, the range still seems to be operating as a going concern, and the old car park looks to have been redeveloped into a five a side football area. The sad parts are where the "very obviously an old golf course" bits sit as nature slowly reclaims the land as its own


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## Jacko_G (Nov 22, 2018)

More members to get swept up by other clubs in the areas, survival of the fittest or most financially astute.

Is that a bad thing? There will be a lot more closures to come all around the country.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 22, 2018)

Oh thatâ€™s a real shame.. played a society there last season was hoping to play it again it was really nice


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## patricks148 (Nov 22, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			More members to get swept up by other clubs in the areas, survival of the fittest or most financially astute.

Is that a bad thing? There will be a lot more closures to come all around the country.
		
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Sadly you are correct Jacko old bean. i fear for a few clubs up here.

Stathpeffer is apparently down to less than 50 members, Muir of ord and Lochness will no doubt suffer when the new Torvean opens, Alness and Invergordon Struggle, though they have just poached quite few members from Tain, who are also struggling along with Golspie


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## Jacko_G (Nov 22, 2018)

That is a shame about Tain, I liked "parts" of Golspie but it just doesn't "flow" (IMO) as a course, greens were very good at Golspie when we played.


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## patricks148 (Nov 22, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			That is a shame about Tain, I liked "parts" of Golspie but it just doesn't "flow" (IMO) as a course, greens were very good at Golspie when we played.
		
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the links and heathland holes are good, but the 3 or so parkland holes and the last hole are nowhere near as good


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## robinthehood (Nov 22, 2018)

OOB said:



			I don't know the ins and outs of the closure, as it was well before my time in this area, but North Weald golf club has bits and pieces of it left, the range still seems to be operating as a going concern, and the old car park looks to have been redeveloped into a five a side football area. The sad parts are where the "very obviously an old golf course" bits sit as nature slowly reclaims the land as its own
		
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Lots of clubs in that area . I guess as the game declined something had to give.


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## robinthehood (Nov 22, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			More members to get swept up by other clubs in the areas, survival of the fittest or most financially astute.

Is that a bad thing? There will be a lot more closures to come all around the country.
		
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They had an artisan section too. Wonder what they'll do  now. Be a shock having to pay real fees for golf
Potters bar is a slightly different case as it for a long time was considered a Jewish only course and I guess it never got away from this.


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## Lilyhawk (Nov 22, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You have a lot a very good courses nearby as well - Hadley Wood , Old Ford Manor and Drynham Park - excellent clubs
		
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robinthehood said:



			Indeed no shortage of courses in this part of the world. I'll probably wait till after winter now and just pay and play for a bit.
		
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I've just taken up the winter offer at Mill Hill which is close by. It's Â£349 from 1st December until 31st May, then if you want to become a "real" member after that, they'll deduct the Â£349 from the annual fee the first year.  Great deal imo.


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## User 99 (Nov 22, 2018)

You've just got to read some replies on here to see why clubs are closing, no loyalty and whoever is offering the best deal, quantity over quality is how it is in this selfish world nowadays.


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## Beezerk (Nov 22, 2018)

RandG said:



			You've just got to read some replies on here to see why clubs are closing, no loyalty and whoever is offering the best deal, quantity over quality is how it is in this selfish world nowadays.
		
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Yeah, just like  businesses show loyalty to their customers ðŸ¤”


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 22, 2018)

RandG said:



			You've just got to read some replies on here to see why clubs are closing, no loyalty and whoever is offering the best deal, quantity over quality is how it is in this selfish world nowadays.
		
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Get your product right. Don't blame members / customers if clubs don't look after them. Good clubs survive.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 22, 2018)

If a club and a course is good enough then it wonâ€™t close down or need to offer cheap deals. 

I canâ€™t really remember many top quality clubs closing down over the years.

It is always sad to see a club close but that will help other clubs in the area


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## HughJars (Nov 22, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			the links and heathland holes are good, but the 3 or so parkland holes and the last hole are nowhere near as good
		
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Golspie for me is let down by the first, and last 5, otherwise a very good knock. Amazed they are struggling, even more amazed about Tain.

Real shame is Strathpeffer goes tho, but 50 members, it's on its last peg there.


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## HughJars (Nov 22, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If a club and a course is good enough then it wonâ€™t close down or need to offer cheap deals.
		
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Geography.


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## robinthehood (Nov 22, 2018)

RandG said:



			You've just got to read some replies on here to see why clubs are closing, no loyalty and whoever is offering the best deal, quantity over quality is how it is in this selfish world nowadays.
		
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If clubs are going to offer cut price deals you cant blame golfers for taking them up. What does loyalty to a club get me ? I personally have been a member of many clubs and have enjoyed it very much. I'll most likely join my local course on a credits based system in the spring then play and play elsewhere when there isn't a medal on.


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## patricks148 (Nov 22, 2018)

HughJars said:



			Golspie for me is let down by the first, and last 5, otherwise a very good knock. Amazed they are struggling, even more amazed about Tain.

Real shame is Strathpeffer goes tho, but 50 members, it's on its last peg there.
		
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small populations and in reality too many course. Tain is about 200 members i think, when it was Â£150 to 200 to be a member they had quite a few members and now its double that guys who only play once in a blue moon just don't continue with membership. It is also a factor that a lot of guys up here are members of two or more clubs, most of the guys i know from up there were once upon a time members at Dornoch,at well as Tain, Goslpie or Brora. not any more though


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## User 105 (Nov 22, 2018)

Sad but necessary.

Simple supply and demand. Not enough members to generate enough income to keep all the clubs open.

Better a few clubs go under so the other clubs get a membership boost to sustain them.

Real danger is as running costs increase and player pool decreases clubs have to maintain membership numbers and and\or increase fees. Increased fees could then drive more people out of the game. And then things just keep spiralling down until it finds a level it can maintain.


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## robinthehood (Nov 22, 2018)

Its an odd set up. I'm expected to pay c 1500 pa for a game once or twice a week but other guys pay half that and play every day Monday to Friday.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 22, 2018)

Golfing habits have changed so much in the last two or three decades. Back in the 70's clubs like Potters Bar were still seen as aspirational and the membership would have to wait to be offered a place and would then stay at the same place usually for a lifetime. In the last decade or so, members are far more choosy, often seeking the best/latest deal and will have little qualm about moving about and loyalty. I would suggest that this has made budgeting and forecasting a refined art and some clubs have been more successful than others. Potter Bar was a definite members club. I've no idea if they've tried moving with the times but it's a shame its gone


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## duncan mackie (Nov 22, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Its an odd set up. I'm expected to pay c 1500 pa for a game once or twice a week but other guys pay half that and play every day Monday to Friday.
		
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If that's a reference to 5 day v 7 day memberships then it's not an odd set up at all.
If it's something different it may be.


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## Robster59 (Nov 22, 2018)

patricks148 said:



			Sadly you are correct Jacko old bean. i fear for a few clubs up here.

Stathpeffer is apparently down to less than 50 members, Muir of ord and Lochness will no doubt suffer when the new Torvean opens, Alness and Invergordon Struggle, though they have just poached quite few members from Tain, who are also struggling *along with Golspie*

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I noticed today on Public Contracts Scotland that there is a tender for a Golspie Golf Club Sustainability Project.


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## User 99 (Nov 22, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Its an odd set up. I'm expected to pay c 1500 pa for a game once or twice a week but other guys pay half that and play every day Monday to Friday.
		
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As Duncan said, if it's a reference to 5 v 7 day memberships it's simple that weekends are the most popular when the course is at it's busiest, one cannot blame a club because someone can only play at weekends, that is the individuals issue, not the clubs.


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## patricks148 (Nov 22, 2018)

Robster59 said:



			I noticed today on Public Contracts Scotland that there is a tender for a Golspie Golf Club Sustainability Project.
		
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Interesting, wonder what they are doing, playing hickory next week and one of the guys is a member,will ask him. I think the land belongs to the Sutherland estate


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## Jacko_G (Nov 22, 2018)

Robster59 said:



			I noticed today on Public Contracts Scotland that there is a tender for a Golspie Golf Club Sustainability Project.
		
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That is sad to hear however there are some positive examples like Pitlochry and them subsequently taking over the running of Blair Athol. 

Put in the correct hands it can be turned around.


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## Lincoln Quaker (Nov 22, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			Put in the correct hands it can be turned around.
		
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This, and I believe this is the same for every golf club in the UK ðŸ‘

Far too many have gone down the discount route and itâ€™s killing them.


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## HamiltonGuy (Nov 22, 2018)

If the course is good enough condition and reasonable membership costs you should retain a core. Youâ€™ll always get folk coming and going but itâ€™s losing the core that kills the club


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## Sweep (Nov 23, 2018)

Buying habits change and I am afraid it is the collective fault of most clubs that they find themselves in this position. Simply put, they have devalued their own product and made the proposition of playing regular golf without a membership far too attractive. Selling cheap tee times to non members is killing member clubs. The non member is getting a better deal than those who support their club year after year. When you treat your best â€œcustomersâ€ like that, itâ€™s only going to go one way.
Consider this. In one county union:
In 1990 the average cost of a round without a member at a club was Â£20.
The average cost of a membership was Â£250. 
In 2012 the average cost of a round without a member at a club was Â£22.
The average cost of a membership was Â£1000.
Conclusion: Nomad fees increased 10% in 22 years. Members fees increased 4 fold over the same period. Members are paying the true cost of golf, nomads arenâ€™t. Members are subsidising golf for nomads.
In 1990 the only cost effective way to play golf regularly was to join a club. Today the most cost effective way to play regularly is to become a nomad.

If you are going to adopt that business model, then you have to offer some pretty good incentives away from just playing golf to keep members and that means social aspect, camaraderie, Sky TV, cheap bar, competition golf and reciprocal deals etc. 
The question is, how many clubs are doing that and where are the nomads going to play when all the members clubs have gone?


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## robinthehood (Nov 23, 2018)

There are more clubs with less people wanting to play the game.  Its pretty simple really. 
Its certainly not the fault of golfers if clubs go down the pan.  
The nearest club to me wants 1500 a year plus 500 joining fee. That's a 2k outlay for no guarantee of a decent tee time.


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## Robster59 (Nov 23, 2018)

When I look at where I live, there are over a dozen golf courses within a 5 mile radius of me, two of which are municipal, the rest Members clubs.  When I first moved to Scotland some 14 years ago there were waiting lists at all of the Members clubs.  Now they are all looking for new members.  You have to wonder how many are sustainable and whether there would be a temptation for some to close given they are positioned on high value housing ground as housing developments have expanded to surround the course.  The catchment area is large but the demand on peoples times now are different and they are looking more closely to see if the cost is justifiable. 
Clubs have to be ensuring that they have incentives for their members which is something our club has looked at in a great deal of detail over the last few years including reciprocal agreements, deals with golf travel companies, pro-shop discounts, as well as other non-golf related benefits. 
I'm not saying they all work but it shows the club is trying to provide a benefit to being a member.


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## Dasit (Nov 23, 2018)

Like everything in life, is it not just supply and demand.

Most golf courses in the UK have been around for a long time, you can't open and close them easily.

If there was a "reset" of the UK and everything was blank, maybe there would only be half the golf courses built, as that is how many would be viable.


As there can't be a "reset" we are stuck with lots of golf courses, which are not at capacity or just not profitable. They carry on going in the hope of changing culture, more people taking up the games etc


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## robinthehood (Nov 23, 2018)

Perhaps if those older courses had been a bit more welcoming and forward thinking they wouldn't find themselves struggling so much now.


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## Jacko_G (Nov 23, 2018)

Robster59 said:



			When I look at where I live, there are over a dozen golf courses within a 5 mile radius of me, two of which are municipal, the rest Members clubs.  When I first moved to Scotland some 14 years ago there were waiting lists at all of the Members clubs.  Now they are all looking for new members.  You have to wonder how many are sustainable and whether there would be a temptation for some to close given they are positioned on high value housing ground as housing developments have expanded to surround the course.  The catchment area is large but the demand on peoples times now are different and they are looking more closely to see if the cost is justifiable.
Clubs have to be ensuring that they have incentives for their members which is something our club has looked at in a great deal of detail over the last few years including reciprocal agreements, deals with golf travel companies, pro-shop discounts, as well as other non-golf related benefits.
I'm not saying they all work but it shows the club is trying to provide a benefit to being a member.
		
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And what ones would go to the wall would you think?

Williamwood? Cathcart Castle? 

Can't see East Renfrewshire or Whitecraigs going belly up, housing wouldn't be an option as far out as Eastwood or Bonnyton. Are you including Cowglen and Pollok? 

Cowglen could go to housing but again I'm unsure as to their financial status. Pollok or Haggs Castle I'd also Imagine are pretty "safe".


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## Robster59 (Nov 23, 2018)

I wouldn't and couldn't say.  It's all hypothesis and my opinion tbh.   I never said any would go to the wall.  I simply wondered how long they can all stay substainable and if any would consider selling up.  As members course, the members would get a pretty good share of the money generated from the sale.  I hope it doesn't happen to any of them as every course and its history means a lot to most of its membership.


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## User 99 (Nov 23, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Its certainly not the fault of golfers if clubs go down the pan. 
The nearest club to me wants 1500 a year plus 500 joining fee. That's a 2k outlay for no guarantee of a decent tee time.
		
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Who's fault is t then ? 

Members have to support a club for it to survive, I have 3 playing partners who, since I've been a member, 14 months now, have never set foot inside the place, other than their fees, they haven't spent a single penny at the club, not one single penny.


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## Robster59 (Nov 23, 2018)

It always amazes me how many members do not spend any of their bar tariff over the year.  Some rush in on the last day or so to buy a few bottles of wine but a lot lose it at the end without spending a penny of it.


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## GB72 (Nov 23, 2018)

I think much of it depends on the club and the atmosphere. I get on with the people I play with and have a drink after a round but the clubhouse is not the sort of place that I would chose to socialise, I just do not like the atmosphere. As we all live locally, any extended session will move to a local pub. If the club wants me to spend more money, it has to become a place where I want to spend time and money.


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## robinthehood (Nov 23, 2018)

RandG said:



			Who's fault is t then ?

Members have to support a club for it to survive, I have 3 playing partners who, since I've been a member, 14 months now, have never set foot inside the place, other than their fees, they haven't spent a single penny at the club, not one single penny.
		
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Sorry clubs have only themselves to blame. If older clubs had made an effort to shake of their restrictive nature and modernise they may not have found them selves in such a crisis.


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## User 99 (Nov 23, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Sorry clubs have only themselves to blame. If older clubs had made an effort to shake of their restrictive nature and modernise they may not have found them selves in such a crisis.
		
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But clubs are the members.


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## Robster59 (Nov 23, 2018)

It's not compulsory for members to have a drink but when I joined my club I made a positive effort to sit in the club after I played, talk to people, chill and get to know as many as I could.  You can't just blame the clubs, the members need to put some effort in as well.  
As above, they are MEMBERS clubs.  Or many of them are.


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## robinthehood (Nov 23, 2018)

RandG said:



			But clubs are the members.
		
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That makes no sense


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## robinthehood (Nov 23, 2018)

Robster59 said:



			It's not compulsory for members to have a drink but when I joined my club I made a positive effort to sit in the club after I played, talk to people, chill and get to know as many as I could.  You can't just blame the clubs, the members need to put some effort in as well. 
As above, they are MEMBERS clubs.  Or many of them are.
		
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The game lives in the past. I and my golfing friends have no desire to sit in the club house for an hour before or after a game . That's just life,  potters bar didn't close because of no one using the bar.


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## Robster59 (Nov 23, 2018)

Is that the club or is it you?


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## robinthehood (Nov 23, 2018)

Robster59 said:



			Is that the club or is it you?
		
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Is what?


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## Robster59 (Nov 23, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Is what?
		
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The fact you won't stay in the club.  At our club, quite a number of members do.  What RandG and I are saying is that if it is a members club, you have an option to do something about it.  If you sit back and say "the game lives in the past" (which I would dispute anyway) and then moan about it, then do something about it.
Members clubs can only function by the input of the members themselves.  Our has changed its outlook substantially over the last few years, modernised, relaxed dress codes, everyone is welcome, they throw events to try and encourage members to feel more of a part. 
Clubs need forward thinking people who can contribute to it.
There are also those who say "not my responsibility" and expect the whole thing just to be there and work.  I'm afraid it sounds like you're the latter.


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## User 99 (Nov 23, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			That makes no sense
		
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You're taking the mickey

Without it's members there is no club, if you spend nothing you get nothing, the downfall of a members club is due to its members.


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## robinthehood (Nov 23, 2018)

RandG said:



			You're taking the mickey

Without it's members there is no club, if you spend nothing you get nothing, the downfall of a members club is due to its members.
		
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Ok I see.  Your statement in isolation was meaningless.
Your right that clubs need members. I'd say spending over  1500 a year on fees is far from spending nothing


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## User 99 (Nov 23, 2018)

You're continually blaming the club, if it's a members club then it's the members who are at fault.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 23, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Ok I see.  Your statement in isolation was meaningless.
Your right that clubs need members. I'd say spending over  1500 a year on fees is far from spending nothing
		
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A club needs more than just the yearly subscription to survive and indeed move forward, societies , use of the bar and catering ( if in house ) , entry into comps - all needed to put money into the coffers for further spending on the course. Itâ€™s a never ending circle.


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## Jacko_G (Nov 23, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Sorry clubs have only themselves to blame. If older clubs had made an effort to shake of their restrictive nature and modernise they may not have found them selves in such a crisis.
		
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Huge generalisation.


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## ExRabbit (Nov 26, 2018)

Fishwick Hall Golf Club gone bust too...

https://www.lep.co.uk/news/preston-golf-club-members-devastated-at-its-closure-1-9460371


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## IanM (Nov 27, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			The game lives in the past. I and my golfing friends have no desire to sit in the club house for an hour before or after a game . That's just life,  potters bar didn't close because of no one using the bar.
		
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Possibly .... old blokes at my club talk with fondness of the days where theyd arrive for a full fry-up, play, then spend rest of the day at the club drinking! 

Well, it's no like that anymore (for most!) BUT , do your game arrive, play then all get in their cars and go?  Crikey, ok, some weeks some of our lot might do that if they have somewhere to be, but in general, we go in for one or two and mostly have lunch.


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## DRW (Nov 27, 2018)

IanM said:



			do your game arrive, play then all get in their cars and go? Crikey, ok
		
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Have to admit to being like that alot, as there is normally something else to be done at home after or before golf or sometimes because we play when the clubhouse is closed.


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## Jacko_G (Nov 27, 2018)

I'm of the opinion that if you can't stay you can't stay. Plain and simple. Some people on here seem to get their Y-fronts in a twist if you don't go into the clubhouse and buy a drink or a roll or lunch etc. Sometimes life is too busy,you never know what other people are facing or going through. 

Could be childcare, home, health, other pressures that people need to get home for.

Personally if you pay your fees you are supporting the club is the way I view it.


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## Wolf (Nov 27, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			I'm of the opinion that if you can't stay you can't stay. Plain and simple. Some people on here seem to get their Y-fronts in a twist if you don't go into the clubhouse and buy a drink or a roll or lunch etc. Sometimes life is too busy,you never know what other people are facing or going through.

Could be childcare, home, health, other pressures that people need to get home for.

Personally if you pay your fees you are supporting the club is the way I view it.
		
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Exactly my view on it to, get fed up hearing people complain others don't support the club because every time they're there they don't buy a pint or 2, a meal or sit and spend hours in clubhouse. I don't drink with the exception for a penchant for a Guiness and that's very rare maybe once every couple of months unless I'm in Ireland! 

At best I may manage a post round coffee but I have young kids and a Mrs that deserves a break as much as I do so getting home after 4 hrs to myself sometimes is quite important to get time with them. The golf club and putting a couple quid behind  the bar isn't my priority once I've finished my round. I'll try to spend maybe up to 30mins post round if I can there out of courtesy but more often than not ill advise my playing partners of my need to leave and they'll understand.


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## Grant85 (Nov 27, 2018)

Wolf said:



			Exactly my view on it to, get fed up hearing people complain others don't support the club because every time they're there they don't buy a pint or 2, a meal or sit and spend hours in clubhouse. I don't drink with the exception for a penchant for a Guiness and that's very rare maybe once every couple of months unless I'm in Ireland!

At best I may manage a post round coffee but I have young kids and a Mrs that deserves a break as much as I do so getting home after 4 hrs to myself sometimes is quite important to get time with them. The golf club and putting a couple quid behind  the bar isn't my priority once I've finished my round. I'll try to spend maybe up to 30mins post round if I can there out of courtesy but more often than not ill advise my playing partners of my need to leave and they'll understand.
		
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Obviously people do often have somewhere to be after golf and no one is saying people should spend 7 hours at the golf club every day.

However, I think if everyone bought at least a coffee or a drink after every round - it would make a massive difference to a lot of clubs.

Also - with regards to food - as I've said before - everyone has to eat. Ok, so you might not have a big lunch at a restaurant every day, but is Â£2.50 for a bacon roll a big issue?

Even if you were just going to have a toastie or a sandwich in the house, it still costs you something for the ingredients, so the relative cost to support your club is minimal.


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## Wolf (Nov 27, 2018)

Grant85 said:



			Obviously people do often have somewhere to be after golf and no one is saying people should spend 7 hours at the golf club every day.

However, I think if everyone bought at least a coffee or a drink after every round - it would make a massive difference to a lot of clubs.

Also - with regards to food - as I've said before - everyone has to eat. Ok, so you might not have a big lunch at a restaurant every day, but is Â£2.50 for a bacon roll a big issue?

Even if you were just going to have a toastie or a sandwich in the house, it still costs you something for the ingredients, so the relative cost to support your club is minimal.
		
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I totally get your point and yes everyone does have to eat but I can do that just as easily at home with my kids and spend time with them whilst doing it instead of waiting at bar to order, then waiting for it to turn up etc. In some places where things can get busy that could be 45mins to an hour by time you finish eating and leave then have to drive home. In most instances I'd rather have that hour doing things with my family, but as I've said on occasions I will try spend some tine afterward with my playing partners and that's not to support the club but to be social and civil to those I've just spent 4hrs with on course. 

I'm not against spending money or people wishing to but I am against being made to feel like I wouldn't be supporting the club if I don't buy said toastie every week, because as I mentioned there are other more important  factors in my personal life. As I get older and kids grow more revenue will go to the club through them having junior memberships, then as they get older I can spend less time with them as they go off to uni and spend more time socialising at the club. My frustration is people using their own circumstance or the argument I should support the club more to judge others for not using all the facilities all the time. We all have different priorities in life and that's what should be respected. 

You say not advocating spending 7hrs there but as an example I turn up 30mins before tee time, spend 4 hours on the course and then say 30mins after that's 5hrs to myself away from my parental responsibility, factor in driving to the course that could be around 6hrs, now if I stop everytime to do my bit and support the club as you say I'd be teetering the 7hr mark, if I did that every week then personally I see that as unfair on my family and my partner as she is equally entitled to some down time. So for me if paying my subs,. Playing weekly and using all the facilities infrequently but as and when I can there should be no issue or people moaning I'm not supporting the club as they're not living my life and may have different priorities. That's entirely there choice and I commend them on that as I'd love to be able to do it but currently cannot. 

I'm not trying be argumentative or put myself above anyone just merely responding to the points mentioned as it so often is when people say those that don't frequently buy more in club are singled out without actually knowing them or their reasons.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 27, 2018)

IanM said:



			Possibly .... old blokes at my club talk with fondness of the days where theyd arrive for a full fry-up, play, then spend rest of the day at the club drinking! 

Well, it's no like that anymore (for most!) BUT , do your game arrive, play then all get in their cars and go?  Crikey, ok, some weeks some of our lot might do that if they have somewhere to be, but in general, we go in for one or two and mostly have lunch.
		
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Yes misty eyed old boys.

I recall talking to one of those at the Troon municipal courses.
He went on and on about how much busier and better it was in the old days.
'We used to get the train out of Glasgow, get a full breakfast and a couple of pints and then decide which course to play' there are three.

I wound him back about the 'decide which course to play' and mentioned that every single tee time on the three courses up to 2pm [it was winter]had been booked up by 10am the previous week.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 27, 2018)

There is never a right answer when it comes to car park golfers - there are many people who donâ€™t have the time for the after game drinks etc so they will leave the club once finished - those guys still put in the money to the club and they shouldnâ€™t be looked down on. But clubs do need members to put money over the bars , pro shops etc to help them provide the required service on and off the course.

If no one supported the bar then the bar would shut - not the course

Until my daughter came along I used to go to the bar after the game and be around for anywhere up to an hour but these days especially on a Saturday I have to leave straight away - I donâ€™t like to but thatâ€™s the way life is these days


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## Grant85 (Nov 27, 2018)

Wolf said:



			I totally get your point and yes everyone does have to eat but I can do that just as easily at home with my kids and spend time with them whilst doing it instead of waiting at bar to order, then waiting for it to turn up etc. In some places where things can get busy that could be 45mins to an hour by time you finish eating and leave then have to drive home. In most instances I'd rather have that hour doing things with my family, but as I've said on occasions I will try spend some tine afterward with my playing partners and that's not to support the club but to be social and civil to those I've just spent 4hrs with on course.

I'm not against spending money or people wishing to but I am against being made to feel like I wouldn't be supporting the club if I don't buy said toastie every week, because as I mentioned there are other more important  factors in my personal life. As I get older and kids grow more revenue will go to the club through them having junior memberships, then as they get older I can spend less time with them as they go off to uni and spend more time socialising at the club. My frustration is people using their own circumstance or the argument I should support the club more to judge others for not using all the facilities all the time. We all have different priorities in life and that's what should be respected.

You say not advocating spending 7hrs there but as an example I turn up 30mins before tee time, spend 4 hours on the course and then say 30mins after that's 5hrs to myself away from my parental responsibility, factor in driving to the course that could be around 6hrs, now if I stop everytime to do my bit and support the club as you say I'd be teetering the 7hr mark, if I did that every week then personally I see that as unfair on my family and my partner as she is equally entitled to some down time. So for me if paying my subs,. Playing weekly and using all the facilities infrequently but as and when I can there should be no issue or people moaning I'm not supporting the club as they're not living my life and may have different priorities. That's entirely there choice and I commend them on that as I'd love to be able to do it but currently cannot.

I'm not trying be argumentative or put myself above anyone just merely responding to the points mentioned as it so often is when people say those that don't frequently buy more in club are singled out without actually knowing them or their reasons.
		
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I completely get that and as a golfer with young kids as well, it is a big time commitment. 

I won't be playing every Saturday, but when I do I will be dividing my time and either will be trying to play morning or afternoon so that I can have some kind of activity with the kids. 

And certainly you sound far from the car park golfer who never sets foot in the clubhouse, but like I said, I think the number of guys who never so much as buy a coffee or a soft drink is alarmingly high at a lot of places.


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## Jacko_G (Nov 27, 2018)

Grant85 said:



			Obviously people do often have somewhere to be after golf and no one is saying people should spend 7 hours at the golf club every day.

However, I think if everyone bought at least a coffee or a drink after every round - it would make a massive difference to a lot of clubs.

Also - with regards to food - as I've said before - everyone has to eat. Ok, so you might not have a big lunch at a restaurant every day, but is Â£2.50 for a bacon roll a big issue?

Even if you were just going to have a toastie or a sandwich in the house, it still costs you something for the ingredients, so the relative cost to support your club is minimal.
		
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Why though?

What right does a GC have to "expect" loyalty and your money after you have paid your fees? 

Just say for example that I or another member is living on a budget and the weekly shopping budget includes my "toastie" or roll and bacon ingredients. Therefore having budgeted for this why must a member find extra to support the club which they are already supporting?

That may seem extreme but it can also be reality for some.


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## Wolf (Nov 27, 2018)

Grant85 said:



			I completely get that and as a golfer with young kids as well, it is a big time commitment.

I won't be playing every Saturday, but when I do I will be dividing my time and either will be trying to play morning or afternoon so that I can have some kind of activity with the kids.

And certainly you sound far from the car park golfer who never sets foot in the clubhouse, but like I said, I think the number of guys who never so much as buy a coffee or a soft drink is alarmingly high at a lot of places.
		
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I certainly try not to be a car park golfer but there are probably more times than not I have to be at the moment. 

One thing I've always thought clubs should do more of is have evening events that incorporate socialising and encourage people to bring families along, that would generate revenue and stop people like myself always having to be elsewhere. I remember my first club where I was a junior regularly had things like quiz nights, racing nights, new years eve parties etc families could go along enjoy the evening and the place was full with people they'd make a fortune, ironically that they only did these whilst raising funds for new clubhouse. Once that was built it all Stopped and my dad still a member there says how dead and devoid of atmosphere the place is now they do nothing and keep wondering why revenue dropped. Its like many places I've been to in past and more recently where I'm searching for a new club as we relocate on wednesday. So many are not doing any social functions because "they're a golf club and golf is what matters and people should buy drinks afterwards" 

Well I've done a bit of shopping around and made a decision on where I'll be playing, it's 10mins from our new home has an upcoming course only 20years ish old and has a huge social calendar with regular quiz nights, family functions and decent facilities. Ironically it's also cheaper than the other options which are equally as close by but believe golfers should spend money and the rest doesn't come into it, yet when I've been to them the place is devoid of soul and atmosphere, yet they are probably better courses one in fact is highly ranked in UK but doesnt offer anything socially for my family. 

Clubs need to think of things to do to encourage use of facilities not just relying on people thinking they have to support the club..


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## Grant85 (Nov 27, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			Why though?

What right does a GC have to "expect" loyalty and your money after you have paid your fees?

Just say for example that I or another member is living on a budget and the weekly shopping budget includes my "toastie" or roll and bacon ingredients. Therefore having budgeted for this why must a member find extra to support the club which they are already supporting?

That may seem extreme but it can also be reality for some.
		
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Well ultimately Golf Clubs are run not for profit. The membership fees are only one area of revenue for them. For a lot of clubs, bar / food / mars bar revenue will be trivial - but every little helps. 

Appreciate if your home course is Dundonald, it probably is a bit more 'commericial' than a traditional member owned club. 

Like I said, I'm not saying spend all day in the club drinking and buying 2 course lunches for your whole family - but supporting a member owned golf club should benefit the club / the course / other members etc.


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## robinthehood (Nov 27, 2018)

Some of the club's I've been looking at want you to join on a temporary basis while you collect enough signatures to become a full member. Others want circa 2k joining fees.
Then there are proposers,  seconders,  interviews...
For a game in decline and clubs struggling for members I think they could do more to be a bit more welcoming


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## funkycoldmedina (Nov 27, 2018)

Jacko_G said:



			I'm of the opinion that if you can't stay you can't stay. Plain and simple. Some people on here seem to get their Y-fronts in a twist if you don't go into the clubhouse and buy a drink or a roll or lunch etc. Sometimes life is too busy,you never know what other people are facing or going through. 

Could be childcare, home, health, other pressures that people need to get home for.

Personally if you pay your fees you are supporting the club is the way I view it.
		
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This pretty much says my thoughts on the subject. At my previous club I was a single man who always stayed for a drink and supported club nights. Now I'm a dad of 2 kids of 6 and under and I get one round at the weekend, teeing off at 7.30, finished by 10.30 and home by 11am. 
Golf has to find a way for the time poor golfer to be able to play because we will be the members who in the future will make more use of good facilities.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 27, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Some of the club's I've been looking at want you to join on a temporary basis while you collect enough signatures to become a full member. Others want circa 2k joining fees.
Then there are proposers,  seconders,  interviews...
For a game in decline and clubs struggling for members I think they could do more to be a bit more welcoming
		
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Can i ask what clubs you are looking at in the Herts area ?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Nov 27, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Some of the club's I've been looking at want you to join on a temporary basis while you collect enough signatures to become a full member. Others want circa 2k joining fees.
Then there are proposers,  seconders,  interviews...
For a game in decline and clubs struggling for members I think they could do more to be a bit more welcoming
		
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Maybe the Clubs in question are not "struggling" for members .

As I have said  re: joining fees not all clubs are desperate for additional numbers.


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## robinthehood (Nov 27, 2018)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Can i ask what clubs you are looking at in the Herts area ?
		
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Everywhere. 
Today Iooked at John o gaunt,  Hadley wood. Brookmans park. 
I just want some where to play golf and take some friends who are fair weather golfers! That said it does have to  be in good nick.   
I'm being drawn to the freedom play offering from crown as I can maintain a handicap at local club but still pay and play with my friends who are unlikely to ever take club membership


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## robinthehood (Nov 27, 2018)

I see now that brookmans park have dropped joining fee and reduced subs for the next 50 applicants.  
Sign of the times I guess, I doubt they'll pick up many of the ex potters bar lot though


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 27, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			Everywhere.
Today Iooked at John o gaunt,  Hadley wood. Brookmans park.
I just want some where to play golf and take some friends who are fair weather golfers! That said it does have to  be in good nick.  
I'm being drawn to the freedom play offering from crown as I can maintain a handicap at local club but still pay and play with my friends who are unlikely to ever take club membership
		
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If you want a course thatâ€™s in good nick then you will need to look at the Hadley Woods and John O Gaunts 

But there are places like Aldwickbury which are decent but not too expensive- lots of choices but the better ones will be a bit more and have a joining process


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2018)

Sweep said:



			If you are going to adopt that business model, then you have to offer some pretty good incentives away from just playing golf to keep members and that means social aspect, camaraderie, Sky TV, cheap bar, competition golf and reciprocal deals etc.
The question is, how many clubs are doing that and where are the nomads going to play when all the members clubs have gone?
		
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Pleased to say that my place have done all of what you suggest as we had to get our membership up - and keep it up.  

In fact just last weekend we had our Club Christmas Show - about 40 members putting it on - and 3 shows in front of audience of maybe 70-80 a show.  So if there is a bit of thespian in you then opportunity knocks - and then there's the club choir and concerts if you fancy harmonising with other members.  On the golf side we have superb practice facilities - including more recently addition of three covered bays on our range (and room enough for the longest drivers); free range balls for members; indoor golf studio with GC2 and HMT launch monitor for lessons; plus separate putting green and large chipping practice ground.  Meanwhile on the course we are rebuilding every single bunker as ecobunkers to ensure consistency across the course and to reduce bunker maintenance costs.

And we currently have a short waiting list.  If you build it, They will come.


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## HughJars (Nov 27, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Pleased to say that my place have done all of what you suggest as we had to get our membership up - and keep it up. 

In fact just last weekend we had our Club Christmas Show - about 40 members putting it on - and 3 shows in front of audience of maybe 70-80 a show.  So if there is a bit of thespian in you then opportunity knocks - and then there's the club choir and concerts if you fancy harmonising with other members.
		
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  I don;t have the words to describe how much I wouldn't want to be a member of this club


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 27, 2018)

HughJars said:



 I don;t have the words to describe how much I wouldn't want to be a member of this club
		
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Fortunately (for some and such as you) you don't have to take part...

Show raised a good sum of money for this years Captain's Charity


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## HamiltonGuy (Nov 28, 2018)

We sold off some land at our course which was a par 3 9 hole. I wasnâ€™t around at the time as I was a member elsewhere however the money was reinvested in drainage and other bits on the course with more to do on clubhouse etc. There is still a small joining fee for our course Â£350 in comparison to the Â£1400 when I first looked to join 10 years ago although then there was  also a waiting list. I think the selling of the land will keep the club in relative financial health for sometime. I suppose not all clubs have that luxury though in the lanarkshire area most of the â€œbetterâ€ courses Ek, bothwell, strathaven, Lanark etc all have joining fees. Perhaps if one was to drop it they all may be forced to but maybe they all have an unwritten agreement


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 28, 2018)

HughJars said:



 I don;t have the words to describe how much I wouldn't want to be a member of this club
		
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You and me both. A total antithesis of why I'd join a club


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## richart (Nov 28, 2018)

HomerJSimpson said:



			You and me both. A total antithesis of why I'd join a club
		
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Why ? Club has all the practice facilities you would want, and course being improved. Social event you donâ€™t have to attend, but raising money for charity.

We have lots of social events, including quiz nights, bridge evenings, themed meals in the evening. Some I attend, and some I donâ€™t, but great to have a choice. I am sure the events raise money for the club, that then gets reinvested. 

We have a full membership and a joining fee, so must be doing something right.


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## HughJars (Nov 29, 2018)

richart said:



			Why ? Club has all the practice facilities you would want, and course being improved. Social event you donâ€™t have to attend, but raising money for charity.

We have lots of social events, including quiz nights, bridge evenings, themed meals in the evening. Some I attend, and some I donâ€™t, but great to have a choice. I am sure the events raise money for the club, that then gets reinvested.

We have a full membership and a joining fee, so must be doing something right.
		
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I think it's more - if that's your thing, and as you say a lot of members enjoy it, then I'm not seeing I'd have a lot in common with the membership. No offence intended


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## patricks148 (Nov 29, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Pleased to say that my place have done all of what you suggest as we had to get our membership up - and keep it up. 

In fact just last weekend we had our Club Christmas Show - about 40 members putting it on - and 3 shows in front of audience of maybe 70-80 a show.  So if there is a bit of thespian in you then opportunity knocks - and then there's the club choir and concerts if you fancy harmonising with other members.  On the golf side we have superb practice facilities - including more recently addition of three covered bays on our range (and room enough for the longest drivers); free range balls for members; indoor golf studio with GC2 and HMT launch monitor for lessons; plus separate putting green and large chipping practice ground.  Meanwhile on the course we are rebuilding every single bunker as ecobunkers to ensure consistency across the course and to reduce bunker maintenance costs.

And we currently have a short waiting list.  If you build it, They will come.
		
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sounds like the masons to me, is it a masonic club


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## richart (Nov 29, 2018)

HughJars said:



			I think it's more - if that's your thing, and as you say a lot of members enjoy it, then I'm not seeing I'd have a lot in common with the membership. No offence intended 

Click to expand...

Not sure I said a lot of members enjoy the events. Imagine bridge nights and quiz evenings have around 30/40 attending. 400 plus dont go, but isn't it a good idea to offer them still, if they make money for the club, and are enjoyed by some ? Meals probably attract around 60/80 so a bigger percentage, and not sure why anyone would not want to be a member of a club that offers them. Perhaps we are more sociable down south.


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## DRW (Nov 29, 2018)

richart said:



			Not sure I said a lot of members enjoy the events. Imagine bridge nights and quiz evenings have around 30/40 attending. 400 plus dont go, but isn't it a good idea to offer them still, if they make money for the club, and are enjoyed by some ? Meals probably attract around 60/80 so a bigger percentage, and not sure why anyone would not want to be a member of a club that offers them. Perhaps we are more sociable down south.

Click to expand...

Not just down south, works in the middle part as well, yeah great ideas, really enjoy the odd quiz nights, thinking of actually risking going to a dinner/dance evening this year at a club  and helps to gets more money into the bar/kitchen.


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## robinthehood (Dec 4, 2018)

6 clubs closed in as many weeks. 
http://www.thegolfbusiness.co.uk/2018/12/95-year-old-hertfordshire-golf-club-ceases-trading/


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Dec 4, 2018)

Have you looked at WGC GC ?  I would be happy to play a round with you if you were interested.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 4, 2018)

Lets be honest - good courses/club donâ€™t go bust , anytime you near of courses going under or struggling you arenâ€™t really surprised at the end of the day - I know one course in this area is really struggling and Iâ€™ll be surprised if it doesnâ€™t close and another that is short of members significantly and will struggle unless they get them back up but I donâ€™t see how they will


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## Robster59 (Dec 4, 2018)

I think that perhaps clubs that rely on Captains to do everything are at a disadvantage as a club Captain is not necessarily a businessman or someone who can make the correct long-term decisions.  In the old days when there were waiting lists and you had income from joining fees you didn't have to worry as much about finances, marketing, etc. as you do now.  
That's why we changed to the Board of Management.  The Captain contributes in terms of ideas and effort but there is a core of people who have the correct skills who are helping to guide the club forward.


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## USER1999 (Dec 4, 2018)

We have a board, responsible for running the golf club as a business, and a committee responsible for day to day club stuff. The Captain sits on both, but has more sway on the comittee.


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Dec 5, 2018)

murphthemog said:



			We have a board, responsible for running the golf club as a business, and a committee responsible for day to day club stuff. The Captain sits on both, but has more sway on the comittee.
		
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^^^^^ This for us too.


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## Robster59 (Dec 5, 2018)

Here's a different approach. 
"The Grange and Broughty Golf Clubs, which occupy neighbouring sites on Monifieth links, have agreed to merge in response to dwindling memberships and will be based in the current Grange clubhouse."
It's creative thinking and it allows the two clubs to continue whilst getting the overheads of running the club down.  Especially when you have four separate clubs sharing the Monifieth links. 
Grange and Broughty Golf Clubs to merge


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## Artisan Rodge (Dec 23, 2018)

robinthehood said:



			6 clubs closed in as many weeks.
http://www.thegolfbusiness.co.uk/2018/12/95-year-old-hertfordshire-golf-club-ceases-trading/

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Of course when Potters Bar finally decided to address their problems it was too late.  Last year they halved the membership fees to the main members and the Artisan section  -  were they just trying to drag every little penny they could out of unsuspecting new members ?
The Artisan section used to make a lot of money out of societies and visitors who found the main club Bar was shut.
Of course Artisan golf is a lot more fun anyway !  The guys at Potters Bar Artisans (and others) are always welcome at Verulam Artisans


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## HomerJSimpson (Dec 23, 2018)

Artisan Rodge said:



			Of course when Potters Bar finally decided to address their problems it was too late.  Last year they halved the membership fees to the main members and the Artisan section  -  were they just trying to drag every little penny they could out of unsuspecting new members ?
The Artisan section used to make a lot of money out of societies and visitors who found the main club Bar was shut.
Of course Artisan golf is a lot more fun anyway !  The guys at Potters Bar Artisans (and others) are always welcome at Verulam Artisans
		
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I think your first sentence is the crux of a lot club issues. They simply refuse to accept there is a problem until it's too late.


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## duncan mackie (Dec 23, 2018)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I think your first sentence is the crux of a lot club issues. They simply refuse to accept there is a problem until it's too late.
		
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More realistically, there are many golf clubs who simply aren't in control,of their own destiny.

Many will be leaseholders and, as such, in the UK they will be fundamentally be at the whim and will of the property market and development trends.


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## patricks148 (Dec 24, 2018)

duncan mackie said:



			More realistically, there are many golf clubs who simply aren't in control,of their own destiny.

Many will be leaseholders and, as such, in the UK they will be fundamentally be at the whim and will of the property market and development trends.
		
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it always amazes me the Golf clubs built on land they don't own, Royal Dornoch, still leases the land from then Duke of Sutherland, as do Brora.


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## shortgame (Dec 24, 2018)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Pleased to say that my place have done all of what you suggest as we had to get our membership up - and keep it up.

In fact just last weekend we had our *Club Christmas Show - about 40 members putting it on - and 3 shows in front of audience of maybe 70-80 a show. So if there is a bit of thespian in you then opportunity knocks - and then there's the club choir and concerts if you fancy harmonising with other members*. On the golf side we have superb practice facilities - including more recently addition of three covered bays on our range (and room enough for the longest drivers); free range balls for members; indoor golf studio with GC2 and HMT launch monitor for lessons; plus separate putting green and large chipping practice ground. Meanwhile on the course we are rebuilding every single bunker as ecobunkers to ensure consistency across the course and to reduce bunker maintenance costs.

And we currently have a short waiting list. If you build it, They will come.
		
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Sounds great... except the bit in bold which sounds horrific


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 24, 2018)

richart said:



			Why ? Club has all the practice facilities you would want, and course being improved. Social event you donâ€™t have to attend, but raising money for charity.

We have lots of social events, including quiz nights, bridge evenings, themed meals in the evening. Some I attend, and some I donâ€™t, but great to have a choice. I am sure the events raise money for the club, that then gets reinvested.

We have a full membership and a joining fee, so must be doing something right.
		
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Quite right Richard.  If as a member you are not in the slightest bit interested in what members do for other members on the social side (it's not the club management that does the social side - it's the members) then you needn't know any of it is happening and you'd never know.  But it's there for a bit of fun - and creates new friendships between members - members who wouldn't otherwise know each other.  And that can only be good for the membership as a whole and hence good for the club.

In addition to the money raised for the Captain's Charity - the Social Committee also invest in the clubhouse fixtures and fittings.  And so just last week the Social Committee bought a new keyboard for the club - the previous one having blown up first night of this years show  And this new keyboard was rolled out for the first time on Friday evening just gone for the club's Christmas Readings and Carols evening.  Now that sort of funding just wouldn't be available if it weren't for the social side and events - and would be harder to justify to members were it coming out of subscriptions.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 24, 2018)

Robster59 said:



			I think that perhaps clubs that rely on Captains to do everything are at a disadvantage as a club Captain is not necessarily a businessman or someone who can make the correct long-term decisions.  In the old days when there were waiting lists and you had income from joining fees you didn't have to worry as much about finances, marketing, etc. as you do now.
That's why we changed to the Board of Management.  The Captain contributes in terms of ideas and effort but there is a core of people who have the correct skills who are helping to guide the club forward.
		
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Absolutely right.   Maybe ten years ago our then club professional took over the retiring secretaries role - a role that included  club business management .  A great pro - but the business side of running and developing a golf club - rather than a professional business - just wasn't his bag.  A couple of years ago we engaged a young guy whose background was business and marketing, and who had been doing that at another 'owned' club not too far from us.  However, as it wasn't a members club his scope was limited.  With him at the helm I think we are really pushing on as a club that develops and is now offering a really good product - above and beyond the golf course -  which too is subject of a lot of investment.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 6, 2020)

User 99 said:



			Excuse my ignorance here but what happens after a club closes ? Does the clubhouse just shut, does the course just overgrow, what about the machinery ? Do the greens staff get paid off ?
		
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Just happened to get a call from my son - he's doing a gig this evening in St Andrew's church Immingham and spotted the closed golf course next door.  He was telling me how sad it was to see the nice clubhouse all shuttered up and the course becoming overgrown.


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## GB72 (Feb 6, 2020)

From what I hear, a club is going near me. Rutland County is closing at the end of March.


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## HamiltonGuy (Feb 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Just happened to get a call from my son - he's doing a gig this evening in St Andrew's church Immingham and spotted the closed golf course next door.  He was telling me how sad it was to see the nice clubhouse all shuttered up and the course becoming overgrown.
		
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yeh there was a club that I pass on occasion mouse valley (kames) and it closed it’s strange seeing the clubhouse sitting empty and the outline of what once was the course


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Feb 6, 2020)

I often pass Potters Bar GC (as was) on the train, it cuts a rather sad site, its recognisable still as a former golf course but is quite overgrown now, not too long before the developers move in I guess


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## MendieGK (Feb 6, 2020)

Playing devils advocate, is it a bad thing that courses close? Does it not mean that a large proportion of these Members will move to other clubs. 

We have too many courses in this country imo.

Not saying I’m right but wonder on people views


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## sunshine (Feb 6, 2020)

ArnoldArmChewer said:



			I often pass Potters Bar GC (as was) on the train, it cuts a rather sad site, its recognisable still as a former golf course but is quite overgrown now, not too long before the developers move in I guess
		
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I pass it on the train too. Somebody is still cutting the grass, but you would struggle to spot where the greens used to be.

The land is green belt, so the developers would have to get it declassified before starting any work.


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## USER1999 (Feb 6, 2020)

sunshine said:



			I pass it on the train too. Somebody is still cutting the grass, but you would struggle to spot where the greens used to be.

The land is green belt, so the developers would have to get it declassified before starting any work.
		
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Surely a golf course is brown, not green belt, even if in a green belt area?


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## Grizzly (Feb 7, 2020)

On a slightly different note, I was asked my a colleague yesterday about a London course, West Middlesex Golf Club, which is up for sale by administrators.  Anyone know what the story is there?


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## HomerJSimpson (Feb 7, 2020)

MendieGK said:



			Playing devils advocate, is it a bad thing that courses close? Does it not mean that a large proportion of these Members will move to other clubs.

We have too many courses in this country imo.

Not saying I’m right but wonder on people views
		
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I think there are too many courses, many of which came along rapidly in the 80's boom and have since struggled. Is it a bad thing? I guess for those employed by the club such as green staff, admin and clubhouse staff if it means losing their job and struggling to find another it will be a big issue. Clearly if a business is unsustainable then unless it gets bought out it will close. I do agree that for members, it is going to be much easier to simply find another club


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## Diamond (Feb 7, 2020)

I have been a member of private social and sporting clubs for 30 years.  Without members using the bar and getting involved with the clubs activities they will struggle and eventually fold.
The drink driving clamp down (rightly so) in the 80's and 90's stopped a lot of people from playing and then socialising over a few pints.  Clubs could no longer survive on membership only.
The well run clubs, with the best facilities, hardest working committees and busy and well supported social calender will continue to thrive.  
What I will say is anyone who pays for membership, turns up and plays golf, bowls, cricket, football etc and leaves is not fully supporting the club or helping its future.  Dont then be surprised to see the club/course to deteriorate, membership dwindle and clubs eventually fold.  But again the members who turn up play and leave will have no qualms in signing on elsewhere.  Survival of the fittest.


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## SteveJay (Feb 7, 2020)

Diamond said:



			What I will say is anyone who pays for membership, turns up and plays golf, bowls, cricket, football etc and leaves is not fully supporting the club or helping its future.  Dont then be surprised to see the club/course to deteriorate, membership dwindle and clubs eventually fold.
		
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I would question whether a club has set its membership fees at the appropriate level if it was reliant on other such income to ensure the course and facilities were maintained. Surplus income from the non-core activities should surely be used to _*enhance *_rather than maintain facilities.


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## Orikoru (Feb 7, 2020)

This weekend I was looking for somewhere cheap to play away from our home course, and we're genuinely running out of options. We lost Ruislip and Bushey Hall last year, and they were two of our regular go-to courses. Now all we have is Rickmansworth or we have to go much further afield out to Slough. Even Wexham I'm sure I heard is having work done to it so the course has been made temporarily much shorter.


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## Grizzly (Feb 7, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			This weekend I was looking for somewhere cheap to play away from our home course, and we're genuinely running out of options. We lost Ruislip and Bushey Hall last year, and they were two of our regular go-to courses. Now all we have is Rickmansworth or we have to go much further afield out to Slough. Even Wexham I'm sure I heard is having work done to it so the course has been made temporarily much shorter.
		
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How cheap is cheap?  There seem to be plenty of decent ones for not a huge amount of money from what I can see!


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## Diamond (Feb 7, 2020)

SteveJay said:



			I would question whether a club has set its membership fees at the appropriate level if it was reliant on other such income to ensure the course and facilities were maintained. Surplus income from the non-core activities should surely be used to _*enhance *_rather than maintain facilities.
		
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Like I said survival of the fittest.  Most will be fine and even better than fine but some will struggle due to supply and demand.  I am sure there are a lot of golf clubs that are setting membership as low as possible to attract golfers.


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## Orikoru (Feb 7, 2020)

Grizzly said:



			How cheap is cheap?  There seem to be plenty of decent ones for not a huge amount of money from what I can see!
		
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£20 mate. Don't really want to pay more than that in these conditions, it's not worth it. Where were you thinking of?


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## Grizzly (Feb 7, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			£20 mate. Don't really want to pay more than that in these conditions, it's not worth it. Where were you thinking of?
		
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I know its a 9 holer, but West London Golf Centre is pretty decent, and Pinner Hill have some silly offers at present.  If you stretch to £25, the Oxfordshire is also in range - we were there last week and it was not in bad condition considering the weather we've had.


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Feb 7, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			£20 mate. Don't really want to pay more than that in these conditions, it's not worth it. Where were you thinking of?
		
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Are Trent Park or Whitewebbs on your radar ?


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## Orikoru (Feb 7, 2020)

Grizzly said:



			I know its a 9 holer, but West London Golf Centre is pretty decent, and Pinner Hill have some silly offers at present.  If you stretch to £25, the Oxfordshire is also in range - we were there last week and it was not in bad condition considering the weather we've had.
		
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Ah I'm not a fan of Pinner Hill, it plays sooo long in the winter, haha. Oxfordshire is too long a drive, particularly when I have to get my mate to pick me up. Cheers for the suggestions though. 



ArnoldArmChewer said:



			Are Trent Park or Whitewebbs on your radar ?
		
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I played Trent Park once last year, it was quite decent although weather was horrendous that day. Never heard of Whitewebbs, I'll have a look. 

Chances are we'll give Grimsdyke another bash though. Nice little course only ten mins from my house.


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## robinthehood (Feb 7, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Ah I'm not a fan of Pinner Hill, it plays sooo long in the winter, haha. Oxfordshire is too long a drive, particularly when I have to get my mate to pick me up. Cheers for the suggestions though. 


I played Trent Park once last year, it was quite decent although weather was horrendous that day. Never heard of Whitewebbs, I'll have a look. 

Chances are we'll give Grimsdyke another bash though. Nice little course only ten mins from my house.
		
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What about raddlet? It's not bad, some nice holes and reasonable price.


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## Grant85 (Feb 7, 2020)

MendieGK said:



			Playing devils advocate, is it a bad thing that courses close? Does it not mean that a large proportion of these Members will move to other clubs.

We have too many courses in this country imo.

Not saying I’m right but wonder on people views
		
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I think looking at it objectively, it could have a positive effect. Obviously it is sad to lose a course, especially if it's one that's been around for a century but assuming there are still other courses in the area you'd hope they could get an influx of members. And in this country a huge number of golf courses / clubs have now been suffering under investment for decades and in most cases a business would take the decision to close / merge well before this reality happens for a golf club. 

We had a neighbouring course close last year and it increased our main membership by maybe 80 to 100 or so. This has obviously aided the purse strings and allowed a number of maintenance and projects that likely would otherwise not have happened. No doubt there'll still be a bit of turnover but it has certainly given us an opportunity to maintain / improve our offering and hopefully that will help with membership and visitor numbers. 

But the bottom line is that it costs a LOT of money to run a golf course and for the clubs that have moved to doing it on a shoe string... it's unlikely they will find a way back from there.


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## Orikoru (Feb 7, 2020)

robinthehood said:



			What about raddlet? It's not bad, some nice holes and reasonable price.
		
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We actually played Radlett early December I think and it was an absolute bog. The course was like a giant mud sponge, should have been closed really, yet we paid £28 each for the privilege. Wasn't impressed, but when we have played there in the past it was good, so that was a shame really.


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## ArnoldArmChewer (Feb 7, 2020)

Cheshunt Park ? could be an option


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## USER1999 (Feb 7, 2020)

Little Hay is normally very playable, and has some nice holes. Not sure about £20 though, you are going to be very limited at that price point.

Oh, and Grims dyke is a terrible golf course.

I started my golf at Ruislip, and Uxbridge golf courses. Shame one has gone, and one might as well be.


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## robinthehood (Feb 7, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			We actually played Radlett early December I think and it was an absolute bog. The course was like a giant mud sponge, should have been closed really, yet we paid £28 each for the privilege. Wasn't impressed, but when we have played there in the past it was good, so that was a shame really.
		
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Yeah it was wet when I played it last year .


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## robinthehood (Feb 7, 2020)

ArnoldArmChewer said:



			Cheshunt Park ? could be an option
		
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Yeah not bad , and can be played for a tenner on golfnow


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## Orikoru (Feb 7, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Oh, and Grims dyke is a terrible golf course.
		
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Is it?? How so?




			I started my golf at Ruislip, and Uxbridge golf courses. Shame one has gone, and one might as well be.
		
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Agreed. Uxbridge is pointless for anything other than light practise now. Ruislip was quite a nice layout without being too strenuous, big shame that has gone. I learnt on the driving range there but didn't play the actual course until several years later.


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## USER1999 (Feb 7, 2020)

I guess I don't play many golf courses with a £20 green fee, so may be it is up there against it's peers at that price point. To me, it's just not any good. The 3 holes in the corner by the entrance are ok, the rest, meh.


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## Orikoru (Feb 7, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			I guess I don't play many golf courses with a £20 green fee, so may be it is up there against it's peers at that price point. To me, it's just not any good. The 3 holes in the corner by the entrance are ok, the rest, meh.
		
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Well, I have no idea what you mean since you've not explained. Is it the condition of the course or the layout which is not to your tastes? I've always enjoyed it, I think it has quite a few interesting holes. Also it's not grossly long which suits me. We actually half-considered joining there if Haste Hill kept getting worse, but in the end they sorted the greens out so we stayed. Would've been more expensive of course so I don't know 100% if I could have afforded it.


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## Grizzly (Feb 7, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Well, I have no idea what you mean since you've not explained. Is it the condition of the course or the layout which is not to your tastes? I've always enjoyed it, I think it has quite a few interesting holes. Also it's not grossly long which suits me. We actually half-considered joining there if Haste Hill kept getting worse, but in the end they sorted the greens out so we stayed. Would've been more expensive of course so I don't know 100% if I could have afforded it.
		
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I tend to agree with you - Grimsdyke isn't a long course, but length is not the be all and end all for a lot of golfers - and it has superb greens, especially in anything approaching Summer.  Is it the best course in Middlesex?  No, it isn't.  But is it worth the money they usually charge? I'd say yes.


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## Grizzly (Feb 7, 2020)

RE Pinner Hill: Now that I wouldn't have said - we played there in very wet conditions Xmas Eve and the 5's were still driver and a mid iron!  Thankfully all of the longer holes seem to be downhill!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 7, 2020)

My son yesterday felt moved to take a few snaps of Immingham Golf Club - Closed...


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## sunshine (Feb 9, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Ruislip was quite a nice layout without being too strenuous, big shame that has gone.
		
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I recognise you haven't played many courses, especially courses considered highly, but even given your limited experience how can you describe Ruislip as "a nice layout "? What course is worse than Ruislip?


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## sunshine (Feb 9, 2020)

Grizzly said:



			On a slightly different note, I was asked my a colleague yesterday about a London course, West Middlesex Golf Club, which is up for sale by administrators.  Anyone know what the story is there?
		
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That's a shame, west mid has some interesting holes and has been around a long time so hopefully it won't disappear.

It's in an area where I imagine there aren't many golfers, but it's popular with the Irish community in west London.


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## USER1999 (Feb 9, 2020)

sunshine said:



			I recognise you haven't played many courses, especially courses considered highly, but even given your limited experience how can you describe Ruislip as "a nice layout "? What course is worse than Ruislip? 

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Well, in the sub £20 bracket, it was fine.


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## cliveb (Feb 9, 2020)

Grizzly said:



			On a slightly different note, I was asked my a colleague yesterday about a London course, West Middlesex Golf Club, which is up for sale by administrators.  Anyone know what the story is there?
		
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Story I heard is that they had a loan from a bank and were struggling to keep up repayments so the debt got sold on to a "less understanding" outfit who have called it in.


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## Grizzly (Feb 12, 2020)

cliveb said:



			Story I heard is that they had a loan from a bank and were struggling to keep up repayments so the debt got sold on to a "less understanding" outfit who have called it in.
		
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Sounds about right - a mate of mine is in the market for a conference venue and looked at this briefly - the legal pack suggests the club breaks even and a bit more, but no trees are being torn up, and there is only 40 years left on a lease from the council.


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