# Credibility and morals of the Catholic Church



## thecraw (Mar 4, 2013)

Just wondering on everyone's thoughts of how the Catholic Church can ever recover from this latest sex scandal by Cardinal O'Brien.

There seems to be a horrendous history of cover up after cover up. Add in the lies and deceit over the years including Cardinal O'Brien's initial statement saying it was all lies and he would contest the allegations to suddenly admitting his behaviour had "fallen beneath the standards expected of me!"

Absolute hypocrisy of the highest order coming from within. 


Discuss and try to keep it civil. This is a hot potato in the news up here and I would also guess throughout the world by now.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 4, 2013)

Whats to recover? The Catholic Church has been myred in scandal for decades and it survives.
A religion of such scale wont fail on the strength of some admissions of knobbeling, the followers are brainwashed to forgive sin when forgiveness is sought. A bit of a flaw really as Dogma points out quite illustratively.

Just my opinion if course.


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## stevie_r (Mar 4, 2013)

A total oxymoron of a thread title


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## stublue2701 (Mar 4, 2013)

GreiginFife said:



			Whats to recover? The Catholic Church has been myred in scandal for decades and it survives.
A religion of such scale wont fail on the strength of some admissions of knobbeling, the followers are brainwashed to forgive sin when forgiveness is sought. A bit of a flaw really as Dogma points out quite illustratively.

Just my opinion if course.
		
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Brainwashed being the operative word.  In my opinion, religion is outdated. Surely people in this day and age don't need to live in fear of some priest or minister who want to heap guilt on them for everything they do?

I'm quite capable of knowing what's morally right and wrong without being preached to by a complete hypocrite like obrien.


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## Bomber69 (Mar 4, 2013)

I am just watching the news and cannot believe what has been going on, all the lies and cover ups how can ordinary people follow this faith after all that has happend, it has been going on for year and will continue to do so for years to come.

Greg you may have a point about the brainwashing..... This hole thing is shocking.


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## stevie_r (Mar 4, 2013)

anyway, are we having a sweep on when a certain mod shuts this thread? :whoo:

13 minutes past midnight


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## Dodger (Mar 4, 2013)

Who gives a flying .......?

It is religion that is responsible for many many things that are wrong in the world.

Atheism all the way.


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## Bomber69 (Mar 4, 2013)

I don't see why he should close the thread as it is all over the news and being discussed all over the world.

Shocking things have been going on and I think this is only the tip of the iceberg with a lot more to follow over the next few weeks.

O'Brien should be lockedup for what he has done not be delt with by his leaders as I don't think they can be trusted to deal with it.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 4, 2013)

Dodger said:



			Who gives a flying .......?

It is religion that is responsible for many many things that are wrong in the world.

Atheism all the way.
		
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Amen to that...


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## Captainron (Mar 4, 2013)

Not sure all of their guys are bad. There must be a few that are actually good people.

I like the facebook page - 'Christianity. One womans lie about a one night stand that went too far':lol:


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## thecraw (Mar 4, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			anyway, are we having a sweep on when a certain mod shuts this thread? :whoo:

13 minutes past midnight
		
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It'll only be shut down if it becomes a mud throwing contest. As I said this is a huge hot potato at present and in the news the world over. The thing that I find most bizarre is that I'm not surprised and even less surprised that its been hushed up for years yet again.

Even after all the child abuse scandal where promises of transparency were promised we are still seein smoke and mirrors and cloak and daggers. Will faith ever be restored or even honesty?


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## GreiginFife (Mar 4, 2013)

Bomber69 said:



			I don't see why he should close the thread as it is all over the news and being discussed all over the world.

Shocking things have been going on and I think this is only the tip of the iceberg with a lot more to follow over the next few weeks.

O'Brien should be lockedup for what he has done not be delt with by his leaders as I don't think they can be trusted to deal with it.
		
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The problem this creates is that if all of the allegations are true and proven/admitted it cannot NOT become a matter of law. If it doesnt then the church is above the law and its THAT that most people will have trouble accepting.


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## Iaing (Mar 4, 2013)

Isn't brainwashing what religions are really all about?

And anyone with even a basic knowledge of history will realise that the Catholic Church has _never_ had any morals.


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## bigslice (Mar 4, 2013)

Captainron said:



			Not sure all of their guys are bad. There must be a few that are actually good people.

I like the facebook page - 'Christianity. One womans lie about a one night stand that went too far':lol:
		
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yes there are plenty of decent priests and nuns.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 4, 2013)

Bomber69 said:



			I am just watching the news and cannot believe what has been going on, all the lies and cover ups how can ordinary people follow this faith after all that has happend, it has been going on for year and will continue to do so for years to come.

Greg you may have a point about the brainwashing..... *This hole thing is shocking*.
		
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Said the Cardinal to the Priest... Ithangewe...


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## Dodger (Mar 4, 2013)

This type of filth goes on world wide but the fact it's an arm of religion means it gets more coverage and rightly so but it isn't just religious groups that are up to no good let's not kid ourselves.


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 4, 2013)

If this thread is mainly based on child abuse claims, I think it needs to be looked at in two ways.

The catholic church has a lot to be embarassed about over the centuries, so does the Britsh empire, so does Islam, so does  the protestant church. I am a catholic, but I think I can discuss this sensibly, can others?

Some people will always look to bash the catholic church at any opportunity.

It is a very fair point to ask, has the catholic church covered up and harboured paedophiles - no doubt.

Has the BBC, Government, local councils, youth organisations also done this - no doubt.

To say that the catholic church alone has done this is wrong. However, the catholic church more than the others has a moral obligation to expose these people, but to say that they are the only ones is patently wrong.

Credibility - not all of the church indulges in this horrendous behaviour, and they should be rooted out. It should not change the message to catholics, but the medium it is done through should be more tightly policed.

Oh yes, and dont forget the catholic church also does a lot of good things.


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## Val (Mar 4, 2013)

There are bad apples in every crop and they get found out eventually. Over 1 billion Catholics will ensure the religion continues and flourishes in many countries but I will say it is on its backside in this country.

The Catholic Church in Britian is dying, with or without the scandals. There are fewer and fewer vocations to the church and parishes are merging already.


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## Val (Mar 4, 2013)

GreiginFife said:



			The problem this creates is that if all of the allegations are true and proven/admitted it cannot NOT become a matter of law. If it doesnt then the church is above the law and its THAT that most people will have trouble accepting.
		
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Unfortunately he will not be taken to task by the law unless there is a complaint to the law (I'm led to believe) which hasn't happened yet.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 4, 2013)

In terms of positions of [inherent] trust, I'm not sure you can compare the family priest with a government official. This is why it gets coverage. These people have done this and hid behind the religion as a shield. 
No doubt it goes on elsewhere but not with the level of irony that a church, a shining beacon of al that is moral, right and just Brings to the situation its inevitible that it will be scrutinised more than anything else.


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## GreiginFife (Mar 4, 2013)

Valentino said:



			Unfortunately he will not be taken to task by the law unless there is a complaint to the law (I'm led to believe) which hasn't happened yet.
		
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Sadly true. You have to ask what action would be taken against a mere Joe Public with the evidence that already exists. All hypothetucal I guess.


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## thecraw (Mar 4, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			If this thread is mainly based on child abuse claims, I think it needs to be looked at in two ways.

The catholic church has a lot to be embarassed about over the centuries, so does the Britsh empire, so does Islam, so does  the protestant church. I am a catholic, but I think I can discuss this sensibly, can others?

Some people will always look to bash the catholic church at any opportunity.

It is a very fair point to ask, has the catholic church covered up and harboured paedophiles - no doubt.

Has the BBC, Government, local councils, youth organisations also done this - no doubt.

To say that the catholic church alone has done this is wrong. However, the catholic church more than the others has a moral obligation to expose these people, but to say that they are the only ones is patently wrong.

Credibility - not all of the church indulges in this horrendous behaviour, and they should be rooted out. It should not change the message to catholics, but the medium it is done through should be more tightly policed.

Oh yes, and dont forget the catholic church also does a lot of good things.
		
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I would tend to agree with everything that has been posted here. In starting this thread I wanted to stimulate a couple of responses and you have started the ball rolling. What I can't understand is a church organisation going out of its way to cover up and hush and deny only to have to back down again. This is why I question the credibility of the organisation and wonder if it can ever recover or be trusted. 

Thoughts?


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## chris661 (Mar 4, 2013)

thecraw said:



			This is why I question the credibility of the organisation and wonder if it can ever recover or be trusted. 

Thoughts?
		
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I don't think it can ever recover which IMO may not be an entirely bad thing. There are reports of a parish over here standing up to a priest and basically hounding him out all because of the way he was acting (I don't know the full story), now 10 years ago I don't think that would have happened as the word of the catholic church and priests was basically the law. It shows a distinct change in attitudes towards the clergy and church.


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## Val (Mar 4, 2013)

thecraw said:



			I would tend to agree with everything that has been posted here. In starting this thread I wanted to stimulate a couple of responses and you have started the ball rolling. What I can't understand is a church organisation going out of its way to cover up and hush and deny only to have to back down again. This is why I question the credibility of the organisation and wonder if it can ever recover or be trusted. 

Thoughts?
		
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I'll flip this to you, does the UK police force still have credibility despite it's cover ups?

I believe the Catholic Church is wrong to cover anything up but believe it will recover in time. Credibility is in the eye of the beholder, if people do not think the church is credible then they will leave and stop going and abandon their faith, I don't think this will happen en masse.


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 4, 2013)

I think the credibility of the catholic church will be damaged, but it wont stop people "believing" - you either do or you dont.

It would be interesting to see if Islam/protestant church/hindu temples etc have also been covering up this despicable behaviour. It has been done by all levels of society,creeds,colours. It is a human/society problem. Yes. more than most any religious overseer should be rooting it out, but we all should.

I can imagine in Scotland that this subject is more of a hot potato, due to the schism in Scottish everyday life. Not so much down here, as catholics are in the minority. Again, probably more to to do with peoples bigger "agendas".

I think the catholic church will carry on. I think society will carry on. Hopefully, the bravery of this and the last generation will help it to not ever become "institutionalised" again, but it will always happen.


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## palindromicbob (Mar 4, 2013)

They may have been covering up for years but thier issue now is how easy news spreads. Not quiet as big an issue in the past. The information age will destroy the organization if they dont adjust. I wouldnt be surprised if there is even more to come out.


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 4, 2013)

Valentino said:



			I'll flip this to you, does the UK police force still have credibility despite it's cover ups?

I believe the Catholic Church is wrong to cover anything up but believe it will recover in time. Credibility is in the eye of the beholder, if people do not think the church is credible then they will leave and stop going and abandon their faith, I don't think this will happen en masse.
		
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It's a good point, we only have one option as a police force though. Probably required, as otherwise there would be chaos.

There are many religions, not that people necessarily swap though. It is also decreed from on high (our parents).


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## chrisd (Mar 4, 2013)

It's quite clear that we were wrong over the years to trust 

Church people
Mp's
Bankers
Food producers
All financial institutes
Police

Please feel free to add your own to this list!


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## Val (Mar 4, 2013)

chrisd said:



			It's quite clear that we were wrong over the years to trust 

Church people
Mp's
Bankers
Food producers
All financial institutes
Police

Please feel free to add your own to this list!
		
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How many threads have we had about these though?


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## Dodger (Mar 4, 2013)

chrisd said:



			It's quite clear that we were wrong over the years to trust 

Church people
Mp's
Bankers
Food producers
All financial institutes
Police

Please feel free to add your own to this list!
		
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SFA.


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## thecraw (Mar 4, 2013)

Valentino said:



			How many threads have we had about these though?
		
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We have had threads on them all from what I recall.


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## thecraw (Mar 4, 2013)

Valentino said:



*I'll flip this to you, does the UK police force still have credibility despite it's cover ups?*

I believe the Catholic Church is wrong to cover anything up but believe it will recover in time. Credibility is in the eye of the beholder, if people do not think the church is credible then they will leave and stop going and abandon their faith, I don't think this will happen en masse.
		
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So in order to detract from what you find offensive you try and become personal?  Thought you were bigger than that!

Feel free to start another thread and we can all discuss the Hillsborough tragedy and others that you feel the need to air. No skin off my nose.


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## Dodger (Mar 4, 2013)

thecraw said:



			So in order to detract from what you find offensive you try and become personal?  Thought you were bigger than that!

Feel free to start another thread and we can all discuss the Hillsborough tragedy and others that you feel the need to air. No skin off my nose.
		
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Valid point Crawford.You can start a thread asking valid questions about peoples religion but not about organisations that folk work for then,is that how it works?


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## stevie_r (Mar 4, 2013)

oops raw nerve


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## thecraw (Mar 4, 2013)

Dodger said:



			Valid point Crawford.You can start a thread asking valid questions about peoples religion but not about organisations that folk work for then,is that how it works?
		
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Is my reply not clear enough for you to understand?


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## bigslice (Mar 4, 2013)

thecraw said:



			So in order to detract from what you find offensive you try and become personal?  Thought you were bigger than that!

Feel free to start another thread and we can all discuss the Hillsborough tragedy and others that you feel the need to air. No skin off my nose.
		
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ach you know that want a personal attack, it does detract slightly from the oringinal post.
what is true that in ALL walks of life there are bad folk.
bad priests, bad cops, docters that take drugs etc all been in the papers.

me i was brought up a catholic, saint this primary saint that secondary,church every sunday  but i had made my mind up in primary 6 that it wasnt for me. had to go along with it a few more years till my mum stopped giving me grief.
i dont believe in God but i do understand why some do thats their choice .


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## Dodger (Mar 4, 2013)

thecraw said:



			Is my reply not clear enough for you to understand?
		
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Mustn't be.

Val asked if the Police still had credibility despite it's numerous cover ups which for me is a valid question to anyone is it not?


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## bigslice (Mar 4, 2013)

thecraw said:



			Just wondering on everyone's thoughts of how the Catholic Church can ever recover from this latest sex scandal by Cardinal O'Brien.

There seems to be a horrendous history of cover up after cover up. Add in the lies and deceit over the years including Cardinal O'Brien's initial statement saying it was all lies and he would contest the allegations to suddenly admitting his behaviour had "fallen beneath the standards expected of me!"

Absolute hypocrisy of the highest order coming from within. 


Discuss and try to keep it civil. This is a hot potato in the news up here and I would also guess throughout the world by now.
		
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you are aware that being catholic you get away with doing bad things. cos aslong as you ask for forgiveness God will forgive you.


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## thecraw (Mar 4, 2013)

bigslice said:



			you are aware that being catholic you get away with doing bad things. cos aslong as you ask for forgiveness God will forgive you.
		
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Therefore it stinks of hypocrisy. Is that what your agreeing too?


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## thecraw (Mar 4, 2013)

Dodger said:



			Mustn't be.

Val asked if the Police still had credibility despite it's numerous cover ups which for me is a valid question to anyone is it not?
		
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A simple reply for you to understand. Start a thread and ask the question and if I can contribute I will. Very simple. Do you understand that reply?


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## Dodger (Mar 4, 2013)

thecraw said:



			A simple reply for you to understand. Start a thread and ask the question and if I can contribute I will. Very simple. Do you understand that reply?
		
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Indeed,what I don't understand is your assertion that Val was being personal......care to enlighten me on that too then?


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## bigslice (Mar 4, 2013)

thecraw said:



			Therefore it stinks of hypocrisy. Is that what your agreeing too?
		
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yes


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 4, 2013)

Where to begin? Child abuse is obviously a horrendous thing but as a gay lady, my main objection to them is their obsessive hatred of people like myself. 

The vile o'brien stirred up homophobic hatred in the guise of religious "teaching" despite being a gay man himself. Even worse, he abused his position of authority to molest priests that were subordinate to him. The Catholic Church is a busted flush. Surely any thinking follower can see the hypocrisy of their outbursts against LGBT people? How many other priests are closeted gays? How can you trust a single word any of these people says?

Above this, of course, all religion is absurd anyway so the sooner all these cults die out the better.


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## thecraw (Mar 4, 2013)

Therefore I assume you agree that the credibility has been lost?

It is very ironic how O'Brien came to grief.


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 4, 2013)

They never had any credibility with me. (Nor does any other religion BTW)

My GF would be catholic if the church didn't consider her an "abomination". Her mum I think despite being a god-fearing woman no longer wants anything to do with them.... With each generation they become less relevant. Sadly I expect they will always be around during my lifetime but one day they will just be a historical curiosity.


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## chrisd (Mar 5, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			They never had any credibility with me. (Nor does any other religion BTW)

My GF would be catholic if the church didn't consider her an "abomination". Her mum I think despite being a god-fearing woman no longer wants anything to do with them.... With each generation they become less relevant. Sadly I expect they will always be around during my lifetime but one day they will just be a historical curiosity.
		
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I have stopped believing for some long time. I take the view that if those in the Vatican who are nearer to their God than most, don't believe that they will go to hell for their wrongdoing, then there is clearly no belief in their religious doctrine at their level and therefore what they preach is clearly just a method of control of the masses.


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## Val (Mar 5, 2013)

thecraw said:



			So in order to detract from what you find offensive you try and become personal?  Thought you were bigger than that!

Feel free to start another thread and we can all discuss the Hillsborough tragedy and others that you feel the need to air. No skin off my nose.
		
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Did i hit a nerve there?

Not detracting or shifting just highlighting that's its in all our lives regardless of what organisation we are involved with, im not finding this personal or offensive (yet).


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## MegaSteve (Mar 5, 2013)

Dodger said:



			It is religion that is responsible for many many things that are wrong in the world.
		
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It's also 'responsible' for a lot of what is right in the world....

But, yes I am basically a non-believer but remain aware that faith [in a positive way] is part of a large number of peoples lives...


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## Dodger (Mar 5, 2013)

Still waiting....


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## bladeplayer (Mar 5, 2013)

Crikey where to start eh .. 




GreiginFife said:



			Whats to recover? The Catholic Church has been myred in scandal for decades and it survives.
A religion of such scale wont fail on the strength of some admissions of knobbeling, the followers are brainwashed to forgive sin when forgiveness is sought. A bit of a flaw really as Dogma points out quite illustratively.

Just my opinion if course.
		
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The catholic religion is not about the clergy tho Greig , the catholic religion is about all its people all these people cant be brainwashed  , im not nieve enought to say bad things dont happen , but when a catholic person does wrong it is treated as a person , but a catholic priest/priests do wrong its the whole religion thats tarnished .. 

im a believer of the catholic religion and make no secret of it , have i abided by every rule or law , i surely have not , i chose to keep catholosism [sp] as a religion when i was old enough to decide because i think the fundamentals of it are to be good & kind , ok some bad people have tarnished & abused this , but blame the people & the people who protected them , not the religion as a whole  



thecraw said:



			It'll only be shut down if it becomes a mud throwing contest. 

Even after all the child abuse scandal where promises of transparency were promised we are still seein smoke and mirrors and cloak and daggers. Will faith ever be restored or even honesty?
		
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your right good healthy discussion should never be shut down , if some people get out of hand it will be closed , who do we blame ? all the forumers or the few that might get out of hand ? 

Faith in the people running the church is questionable , faith in my religion is not 



Iaing said:



			Isn't brainwashing what religions are really all about?

.
		
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I thought it was a bout faith ? 



Dodger said:



			This type of filth goes on world wide but the fact it's an arm of religion means it gets more coverage and rightly so but it isn't just religious groups that are up to no good let's not kid ourselves.
		
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well said 



Valentino said:



			There are bad apples in every crop and they get found out eventually. Over 1 billion Catholics will ensure the religion continues and flourishes in many countries but I will say it is on its backside in this country.

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Agreed total Martin , but peole choose to see the actions of the bad ones over the actions of very many good ones , good news & positive news dont make headline tho 



Liverbirdie said:



			If this thread is mainly based on child abuse claims, I think it needs to be looked at in two ways.

The catholic church has a lot to be embarassed about over the centuries, so does the Britsh empire, so does Islam, so does  the protestant church. I am a catholic, but I think I can discuss this sensibly, can others?

Some people will always look to bash the catholic church at any opportunity.

It is a very fair point to ask, has the catholic church covered up and harboured paedophiles - no doubt.

Has the BBC, Government, local councils, youth organisations also done this - no doubt.

To say that the catholic church alone has done this is wrong. However, the catholic church more than the others has a moral obligation to expose these people, but to say that they are the only ones is patently wrong.

Credibility - not all of the church indulges in this horrendous behaviour, and they should be rooted out. It should not change the message to catholics, but the medium it is done through should be more tightly policed.

Oh yes, and dont forget the catholic church also does a lot of good things.
		
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Very well written mate 



MegaSteve said:



			But, yes I am basically a non-believer but remain aware that faith [in a positive way] is part of a large number of peoples lives...
		
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Its called respecting othere beliefs & wishes  & it in turn earns the respect of others back .. 

To sum it up i supose ,  im not brainwashed i see & am aware of the bad thinks done in the name of my religion , i think they are wrong and quiet possibly carried out by a person hiding (&yes been hidden) behind a religion , not a religious person

Religion is evolving even still , ordinary people are not going to be bullied anymore and that is a very good thing , ordinary catholics are becoming more involved in running their churches & wont be bullied by the clergy anymore , the clergy are seeing this & it is becoming the peoples church with priests as the organisers as such . .


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## GreiginFife (Mar 5, 2013)

bladeplayer said:



			Crikey where to start eh .. 




The catholic religion is not about the clergy tho Greig , the catholic religion is about all its people all these people cant be brainwashed  , im not nieve enought to say bad things dont happen , but when a catholic person does wrong it is treated as a person , but a catholic priest/priests do wrong its the whole religion thats tarnished ..
		
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While I don't disagree Bill, the Catholic Church is an organisation as well as a religion. Where an organisation incurs wrong doing by those at the top then the whole organisation feels it (look at Fred Goodwin, his inept leadership tarnished pretty much the whole of RBS through wrong doing - albeit on a different scale). The members of the organisation (in this case the followers) suffer as a result. 
Brainwashing was maybe a throw-away term I used, but no one can deny that cultural conditioning is a result of any religion. People are told what to do/not do at a moral level or face, for all intents and purposes, non-proven consequences. I'm not here to debate the existence of hell (or heaven) but any organisation that looks to exert a level of control through unfounded consequence is culturally conditioning the people that follow. 
Again, just my opinion on the matter. 
I, personally, don't believe in a God (or Gods) as there is no tangible evidence to suggest that there is. Faith is all and well, but it is the actions that individuals and organisations perpetrate in the "name" of that faith that I struggle with.


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## thecraw (Mar 5, 2013)

Valentino said:



			Did i hit a nerve there?

Not detracting or shifting just highlighting that's its in all our lives regardless of what organisation we are involved with, im not finding this personal or offensive (yet).
		
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No nerve with me. Just find it laughable that you can't answer the OP about the damage done by yet another sex scandle yet you use a childish dig at my occupation as an out? Why not stick with the post and start a separate thread if you feel so strongly about other organisations and wrong doings. 

The whole hypocrisy of the situation is what really gets me. 

Religion is a guidance and a faith. You either buy into it and respect its beliefs and adhere to them and practice it or you don't. You can't pick and choose what parts you will have faith in and what parts youll blatantly abuse or ignore. Religion is a taboo topic that I appreciate and accept.  Like all walks in life you'll get good and bad and a mixed reaction based on personal experiences and interaction. 

Religion offers many positives however its also clearly a mask to hide behind. 

That's my take and view. 


(I still don't get where my occupation comes into it?)


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## bladeplayer (Mar 5, 2013)

GreiginFife said:



			While I don't disagree Bill, the Catholic Church is an organisation as well as a religion. Where an organisation incurs wrong doing by those at the top then the whole organisation feels it (look at Fred Goodwin, his inept leadership tarnished pretty much the whole of RBS through wrong doing - albeit on a different scale). The members of the organisation (in this case the followers) suffer as a result. 
Brainwashing was maybe a throw-away term I used, but no one can deny that cultural conditioning is a result of any religion. People are told what to do/not do at a moral level or face, for all intents and purposes, non-proven consequences. I'm not here to debate the existence of hell (or heaven) but any organisation that looks to exert a level of control through unfounded consequence is culturally conditioning the people that follow. 
Again, just my opinion on the matter. 
I, personally, don't believe in a God (or Gods) as there is no tangible evidence to suggest that there is. Faith is all and well, but it is the actions that individuals and organisations perpetrate in the "name" of that faith that I struggle with.
		
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Very well put Greig & i couldnt disagree with anything you said , its nice to have a debate or conversation about a topic & accept that even though we are on other sides of the fence on it , we can  still respect others thoughts on the subject


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## GreiginFife (Mar 5, 2013)

bladeplayer said:



			Very well put Greig & i couldnt disagree with anything you said , its nice to have a debate or conversation about a topic & accept that even though we are on other sides of the fence on it , we can  still respect others thoughts on the subject
		
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:thup:


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 5, 2013)

Sheer hypocrisy by O' Brien, he should be off to hell in a hand cart.
At least Dunbar will be spared his 'preaching' now.

Why they do not allow priests to marry is beyond me.
This is 2013 not 1313.


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## bigslice (Mar 5, 2013)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Sheer hypocrisy by O' Brien, he should be off to hell in a hand cart.
At least Dunbar will be spared his 'preaching' now.

Why they do not allow priests to marry is beyond me.
This is 2013 not 1313.
		
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years ago one of our local priests chucked it and married our religious education teacher and never to be seen again. was a shame as he was a gud badminton player


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 5, 2013)

The thing is Catholicism is not the religion, Christianity is. Catholicism is just a medium.

Dare I say, just like sky. If you don't like it, go to virgin, BT.

If people are not happy with the catholic religion, but you still believe in the Christian ideals and God, try another one. Off the top of my head, you could become a pentacostalist,presbyterian,anglican,baptist or one of many others.

The Catholic church has many problems, I can patently see. I think one of them is the "from on high"  nature of how it is run. Everything seems to be decreed from the pope, bishops etc. There hasn't traditionally been a democratisation from the ordinary catholics in the street upwards. In this day and age, this probably needs addressing, as democratisation is becoming a bigger factor in people's everyday lives. Whether politics, management meetings in the workplace, committees at a golf club, and more.

People want a say more. 

Marriage - it should be allowed within the catholic church IMHO. Gay priests - bring it on, most probably are anyway.

It does need to modernise, but as long as it doesn't lose it's Christian teachings and beliefs, there should be no problem.


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## sydney greenstreet (Mar 5, 2013)

thecraw said:



			Therefore I assume you agree that the credibility has been lost?

It is very ironic how O'Brien came to grief.
		
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Credibility in the person(s) yes but not the faith, O'Brien was our Parish priest (Bathgate) back in the late 70's-early 80's as was an assistant priest Fr Mullen who is being investigated by the Vatican under abuse claims too, as an alter boy back then I never heard any of my pals say anything and never experienced anything either, just remember our faith is not in these men but in God.


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## Yerman (Mar 5, 2013)

Valentino said:



			I'll flip this to you, does the UK police force still have credibility despite it's cover ups?

I believe the Catholic Church is wrong to cover anything up but believe it will recover in time. Credibility is in the eye of the beholder, if people do not think the church is credible then they will leave and stop going and abandon their faith, I don't think this will happen en masse.
		
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Too late! I remember when there was standing room only, last time I went you had to walk to shake hands with your neighbour adn a week later the priest ran off with a local teacher.


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## Fader (Mar 5, 2013)

Way I look at this is no matter what the organisation whether its the Catholic Church, police force, NHS, Armed forces, government or BBC which are all massive in their own right by sheer weight of numbers there will be people in all of them that are of questionable character whether that be drugs, sexual predators, financial rip off merchants or simply those that cover up all of these things. IMO it's not the organisations that should be questioned or what they stand for but merely the man or woman guilty of the crime.  

To blame the short comings and questionable nature of these individuals on the organisation as a whole is completely wrong. Is it the fault of the religion and faith this man does what he does no it's the fault of the man himself and the few that hid it for him. Catholics faith is not in the priest, bishop, cardinal or pontiff it's in the religion of Christianity itself and what it means. 

It's easy to say to be catholic is to be brainwashed an to believe in something evil and find fault but it amazes me how when something a man does the whole religion is questioned an everything good it stands for and does for people around the world is overlooked to sensationalise the bad. It's a bit like me saying my Dr is crap which she is and I have suffered at her misdiagnosis before and then saying as result the whole of the NHS is crap because she is! It doesn't work like that there will be bad apples in every bunch but it isn't the fault of the many that the few are rotten to the core!

I believe the Catholic Church should let gay and lesbians become priests, that a person sexuality is irrelevant we all have a right to be who we want and with who we choose it doesn't change who we are as a person. I think priests should be able to marry and have a family if they so choose and that the church needs to modernise and learn to evolve. But despite all of the shortfalls of it and what I feel needs to change I'm happy to admit I'm catholic and remain one through my own choosing and not just because I was raised as one, my belief is in the good it does many and in a god. I may get ridiculed on here and elsewhere on occasion for believing but we all have a right to our beliefs and that if you choose not to believe then fine by me each to their own. 

But come on let's not tarnish everyone with the same brush whether they believe or not.


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## Val (Mar 5, 2013)

Bomber69 said:



			I don't see why he should close the thread as it is all over the news and being discussed all over the world.

Shocking things have been going on and I think this is only the tip of the iceberg with a lot more to follow over the next few weeks.

O'Brien should be lockedup for what he has done not be delt with by his leaders as I don't think they can be trusted to deal with it.
		
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So what has he done that he should be locked up for? I haven't read or heard that he has done anything illegal and all i have read or heard was that he was reported to the Vatican for "inappropriate behaviour" which for some reason people tend to think is illegal, I think we need to find out what this behaviour was before throwing the legal book at him.

BTW, I'm not making excuses for the man as I think his hypocrisy is not only shocking but as a catholic it so disappointing and demoralising to the faith.


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## stevie_r (Mar 5, 2013)

Valentino said:



			So what has he done that he should be locked up for? I haven't read or heard that he has done anything illegal and all i have read or heard was that he was reported to the Vatican for "inappropriate behaviour" which for some reason people tend to think is illegal, I think we need to find out what this behaviour was before throwing the legal book at him.

BTW, I'm not making excuses for the man as I think his hypocrisy is not only shocking but as a catholic it so disappointing and demoralising to the faith.
		
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No not necessarily illegal, but certainly contrary to the behaviour he is meant to uphold as a cardinal in the catholic church and carrying out acts that are apparently in the eyes of the catholic church a sin.

Having said not illegal, it's grey isn't it? much like a teacher banging a 17 year pupil - it's called abuse of power


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## Val (Mar 5, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			No not necessarily illegal, but certainly contrary to the behaviour he is meant to uphold as a cardinal in the catholic church and carrying out acts that are apparently in the eyes of the catholic church a sin.

Having said not illegal, it's grey isn't it? much like a teacher banging a 17 year pupil - it's called abuse of power
		
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I'm not suggesting its right, but people have called for him to be locked up, hence why I asked what was illegal.


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## stevie_r (Mar 5, 2013)

Valentino said:



			I'm not suggesting its right, but people have called for him to be locked up, hence why I asked what was illegal.
		
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Being judged to have abused a position of power - if he has - that's why I used the teacher example


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## Val (Mar 5, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			Being judged to have abused a position of power - if he has - that's why I used the teacher example
		
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Is abuse of power a jailing offence? I don't think a teacher and a 17 year old is either. Understand your comparison though.


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## stevie_r (Mar 5, 2013)

Valentino said:



			Is abuse of power a jailing offence? I don't think a teacher and a 17 year old is either. Understand your comparison though.
		
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Not sure myself to be honest, trying to google similar precedents.  It's all a bit of a mess isn't it?  I chat quite frequently on concepts of religion with my best mate's missus, she is a catholic but lapsed - something to do with her not being able to confess due to her marriage.  But anyhoo, her opinion was when O'Brien came out with his statement that the catholic clergy should be allowed to marry, that he was a man she would welcome as pope; who would drag the church into the current century.  Followed by the massive revelations, she is obviously quite deflated.


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## thecraw (Mar 6, 2013)

Fader said:



			Way I look at this is no matter what the organisation whether its the Catholic Church, police force, NHS, Armed forces, government or BBC which are all massive in their own right by sheer weight of numbers there will be people in all of them that are of questionable character whether that be drugs, sexual predators, financial rip off merchants or simply those that cover up all of these things. IMO it's not the organisations that should be questioned or what they stand for but merely the man or woman guilty of the crime.  

To blame the short comings and questionable nature of these individuals on the organisation as a whole is completely wrong. Is it the fault of the religion and faith this man does what he does no it's the fault of the man himself and the few that hid it for him. Catholics faith is not in the priest, bishop, cardinal or pontiff it's in the religion of Christianity itself and what it means. 

It's easy to say to be catholic is to be brainwashed an to believe in something evil and find fault but it amazes me how when something a man does the whole religion is questioned an everything good it stands for and does for people around the world is overlooked to sensationalise the bad. It's a bit like me saying my Dr is crap which she is and I have suffered at her misdiagnosis before and then saying as result the whole of the NHS is crap because she is! It doesn't work like that there will be bad apples in every bunch but it isn't the fault of the many that the few are rotten to the core!

I believe the Catholic Church should let gay and lesbians become priests, that a person sexuality is irrelevant we all have a right to be who we want and with who we choose it doesn't change who we are as a person. I think priests should be able to marry and have a family if they so choose and that the church needs to modernise and learn to evolve. But despite all of the shortfalls of it and what I feel needs to change I'm happy to admit I'm catholic and remain one through my own choosing and not just because I was raised as one, my belief is in the good it does many and in a god. I may get ridiculed on here and elsewhere on occasion for believing but we all have a right to our beliefs and that if you choose not to believe then fine by me each to their own. 

But come on let's not tarnish everyone with the same brush whether they believe or not.
		
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I don't think anyone is mocking the religion and tarnishing everyone with the same brush. I'm questioning how the Catholic Church (certainly in Scotland) can recover from this latest bombshell. I agree that the Catholic Church does fantastic work and I agree its not a slight on everyone. I do find it shocking that a man who was so openly against same sex relationships has now been outed as a potential predator himself where he used his position and influence within the Church to bully and abuse lesser priests. Isn't that ironic!

To then come out and deny it before a humiliating back down also questions the moral stance and integrity of the man. I also wonder how long it was all hushed up for before the story finally broke as I'm sure it didn't just surface last week.


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## Fader (Mar 6, 2013)

thecraw said:



			I don't think anyone is mocking the religion and tarnishing everyone with the same brush. I'm questioning how the Catholic Church (certainly in Scotland) can recover from this latest bombshell. I agree that the Catholic Church does fantastic work and I agree its not a slight on everyone. I do find it shocking that a man who was so openly against same sex relationships has now been outed as a potential predator himself where he used his position and influence within the Church to bully and abuse lesser priests. Isn't that ironic!

To then come out and deny it before a humiliating back down also questions the moral stance and integrity of the man. I also wonder how long it was all hushed up for before the story finally broke as I'm sure it didn't just surface last week.
		
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I'm not anyone one in this tread is specifically doing that it actually  a change for a religion thread to still be running and not S&T down.  Generally though when someone in the church does something wrong everyone blames the religion itself and there have been comments of brainwashing etc. all I merely mean is its not the religions fault this guy did what he did or that it was covered up the fault lies with the individuals concerned.


But I certainly see the irony that you mention in his actions being exactly that which he was openly voicing being against. Also it is certainly an abuse of the power he had within the church that he did these things and was able to get others to cover for him. 

In a way it's a shame that for so many years he had to hide his sexuality because of his occupation but that doesn't excuse what he did to other more junior colleagues. If anything that where the short comings of Catholicism lay had they allowed priest to have relationships and be gay which would not affect his ability as a priest, it may have prevented the whole situation as he could have done his duty to the church and happily been a gay man at the same time meaning he had no need to secretly prey on others. But that's hindsight who knows why he did what he did just have to hope the church learn from this and start realising that some of the laws were outdated many years ago and need to be addressed.


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## stublue2701 (Mar 6, 2013)

I've been reading this thread with interest and every now and again someone pops up with the old 'don't tarnish the whole church cause of one guy" line and also stating that the RC church does a lot of good work. 

Firstly, the church has for years covered up claims of child abuse from top to bottom. The now ex pope has been given exemption from any kind of prosecution for any crimes or cover up of crimes. Why is this? 

Secondly, what good work does the church actually do? 

Now I'm not a fan of religion at all but it seems the RC church is particularly bad when it comes to this sort of thing so surely an investigation into all these claims needs to be carried out.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 6, 2013)

I also wondered about the timing of the Popes resignation and O'Briens reluctant statement.
I don't really believe in coincidences in political and public affairs.


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## Bomber69 (Mar 6, 2013)

Valentino said:



			So what has he done that he should be locked up for? I haven't read or heard that he has done anything illegal and all i have read or heard was that he was reported to the Vatican for "inappropriate behaviour" which for some reason people tend to think is illegal, I think we need to find out what this behaviour was before throwing the legal book at him.

BTW, I'm not making excuses for the man as I think his hypocrisy is not only shocking but as a catholic it so disappointing and demoralising to the faith.
		
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I am not sure yet Big Fella but I am sure that it will all come out in the wash and if he did force himself on these Priests then surely that is illegal is it not or is that allowed within the RC church, I am also sure it would not have been his first time and the guy is rotten to the core and like the Jimmy Savile case lots more will follow if they are allowed to speak up.

I just hope there is not a blanket cover up by the media as I am sure good honest RC's want answers.


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## USER1999 (Mar 6, 2013)

It won't be the media covering it up, they love a scandal. The church will have an internal investigation, involving a broom, and a carpet. They do it every time.


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## Bomber69 (Mar 6, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			It won't be the media covering it up, they love a scandal. The church will have an internal investigation, involving a broom, and a carpet. They do it every time.
		
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:rofl::rofl::rofl:  Somehow I think you might be right about this


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## AMcC (Mar 6, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			It won't be the media covering it up, they love a scandal. The church will have an internal investigation, involving a broom, and a carpet. They do it every time.
		
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I am sure I read somewhere that an internal investigation had already been going on for almost a year.


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## Val (Mar 6, 2013)

stublue2701 said:



			Secondly, what good work does the church actually do?
		
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Have you heard SCIAF, CAFOD, St Vincent De Paul, The Mungo Foundation to name a few, there are tonnes of charities which benefit from the Catholic Church and Catholic people.



Bomber69 said:



			I am not sure yet Big Fella but I am sure that it will all come out in the wash and if he did force himself on these Priests then surely that is illegal is it not or is that allowed within the RC church, I am also sure it would not have been his first time and the guy is rotten to the core and like the Jimmy Savile case lots more will follow if they are allowed to speak up.

I just hope there is not a blanket cover up by the media as I am sure good honest RC's want answers.
		
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If there was to be a cover up no one would know now, the guys was retiring in weeks. Nothing like being innocent untill proven otherwise eh 

If it has been found and reported that he sexually assaulted these 3 priests and 1 former priest then he should have the book thrown at him but untill we hear otherwise then it will always be speculation and it will always be assumed to be of the worst kind for those who are not catholic.

I'll say again I'm not making excuses but given how this is hurting my faith then I'll be open minded and post accordingly.


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## drawboy (Mar 6, 2013)

Every organisation that does good will inevitably hide members that use this as a front for their own ends. That includes religions and indeed public bodies such as police. Let us be honest about this, the man in question cannot believe in God and Jesus Christ if he has been party to the things he has been accused of. Religion has always had dark sides, they have committed many wrongs to many people in the name of God. They also do good around the world. There is no way to root these people out when they are hidden by corrupt politics. He will be judged but I believe by a higher being than anyone on earth. This will be his fate and the fate of the other so called religious hierarchy that have protected him with full knowledge of his crimes.


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## Val (Mar 6, 2013)

drawboy said:



			Every organisation that does good will inevitably hide members that use this as a front for their own ends. That includes religions and indeed public bodies such as police. Let us be honest about this, the man in question cannot believe in God and Jesus Christ if he has been *party to the things he has been accused of*. Religion has always had dark sides, they have committed many wrongs to many people in the name of God. They also do good around the world. There is no way to root these people out when they are hidden by corrupt politics. He will be judged but I believe by a higher being than anyone on earth. This will be his fate and the fate of the other so called religious hierarchy that have protected him with full knowledge of his crimes.
		
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Thats the thing though, all he has been accused of is "inappropriate behavior" and no one knows what that is. It could be trying to plank the lips on someone and getting a knockback which wouldnt be a crime or it could be trying to force himself on someone which could see him serve time in the big hoose.


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## stublue2701 (Mar 6, 2013)

Valentino said:



			Have you heard SCIAF, CAFOD, St Vincent De Paul, The Mungo Foundation to name a few, there are tonnes of charities which benefit from the Catholic Church and Catholic people.

Does the RC church only help RC people?  I find that quite seculiar and not very christian at all.
		
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## Val (Mar 6, 2013)

stublue2701 said:



			Does the RC church only help RC people?  I find that quite seculiar and not very christian at all.
		
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No it doesnt. Just because it has catholic in the name doesn't make it exclusive to catholics.


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## stublue2701 (Mar 6, 2013)

Valentino said:



			No it doesnt. Just because it has catholic in the name doesn't make it exclusive to catholics.
		
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Ah! Sorry I wasn't aware of that. I don't mean to offend, I'm just unaware of the work these charities do. My question was me being curious rather than a challenge.


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## Val (Mar 6, 2013)

stublue2701 said:



			Ah! Sorry I wasn't aware of that. I don't mean to offend, I'm just unaware of the work these charities do. My question was me being curious rather than a challenge.
		
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No problem


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## Bomber69 (Mar 8, 2013)

8 March 2013 Last updated at 17:25 Share this pageEmailPrint
1.8K
ShareFacebookTwitter
Catholic Church in Scotland 'knew of 20 child sex abuse allegations'

By James Cook
Scotland Correspondent, BBC News

The BBC has spoken to an alleged victim of abuse in ScotlandContinue reading the main story
Related Stories

Catholic Church response
'I struggle every day'
The BBC has seen evidence that bishops in the Catholic Church in Scotland knew of 20 allegations of child sex abuse by priests between 1985 and 1995.

Another alleged victim of abuse says his life has been ruined.

An academic who compiled a report for the Church on how to deal with abuse says not enough was done.

The Catholic Church in Scotland insists its child protection procedures have improved dramatically since the 1990s and allegations of abuse now are rare.

The Roman Catholic Church is no stranger to scandal, but until now Scotland has not been engulfed by allegations of abuse.

That may be changing.

Priest removed
The BBC has also spoken to another alleged victim who is not among the 20 new allegations.

Chris claims he was abused by a priest in the 90s, from the age of nine or 10 until he was into his early teens.

"He would get me to perform sexual acts on him and he would perform sexual acts on me," he said.

Continue reading the main story
â€œ
Start Quote

I was very concerned about their unwillingness to actually expose individual priests who were leading double livesâ€

Alan Draper
"Away from the family home, in the family home, in the church, in their vehicle.

"There's many people out there who have been abused."

Chris' story didn't come to light until last year. Police took him seriously, but the case never came to court.

The Church says it removed the priest involved from his parish as soon as the allegations were made and the police were informed.

It insisted the case had been "handled in complete accordance with the guidelines".

A spokesman added: "The Church sent its file to the Vatican in July last year and now awaits a decision."

But how common were such claims?

In the mid-1990s, an academic was appointed to advise the Church on sexual abuse and how to respond to it.

Alan Draper asked Scotland's eight bishops how much they knew.

The BBC has seen the letters which they sent in reply to Mr Draper, which refer to 20 allegations of child abuse by priests.

Lawyer contacted
Mr Draper says he wanted independent experts to investigate further, but the bishops disagreed.

He said: "I was very concerned about their unwillingness to actually expose individual priests who were leading double lives.

"They were very reluctant to do that, and I felt that was totally inappropriate. It's not what your sexuality is, it's how you're managing your sexuality.

Continue reading the main story
â€œ
Start Quote

All allegations are notified to the policeâ€

Catholic Church in Scotland
"Certainly there's strong evidence to say some of the priests were out of control sexually, whether they be homosexual or heterosexual. The file should be made open to an independent group, preferably chaired by a judge."

The Church said Mr Draper was involved "at an early stage in the development of policies and procedures but was replaced when others with greater competence were engaged".

The letters seen by the BBC suggest some priests were reported to police and removed from parishes, while others were not.

Now more alleged victims are coming forward after Cardinal Keith O'Brien admitted sexual misconduct after resigning as Archbishop of St Andrews and Edinburgh following allegations by other priests.

He does not face any criminal allegations, or any claims of child abuse.

Lawyer Cameron Fyfe said: "I'm acting for six clients who allege abuse, two of whom have come forward just in the last few weeks since the Keith O'Brien scandal.

"Some of them go back to the early 1980s, but two of them have been within the last 10 years."

National guidelines
He said two of his clients claimed to have been raped while they were children, with the attacks taking place in the late-1980s and mid-1990s.

Mr Fyfe said that under Scots law, cases should be brought within three years.

But he said that was "totally unrealistic because victims of sexual abuse often lock away the memories of the abuse and can't come to terms with it".

In a statement, the Catholic Church in Scotland said it had applied nationally agreed guidelines on abuse since 1999.

It said: "All allegations are notified to the police. The Church recognises that the statutory authorities are the responsible bodies for investigation.

"All necessary steps are taken to remove anyone in danger from situations of risk."

It added that a "national co-ordinator" for child protection was a key part of its "safeguarding structures."


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## thecraw (Mar 9, 2013)

That's what annoys me most is the Church's reluctance to take the allegations seriously and act on them. They think that by sending a hushed up report to the Vatican they have complied and are bombproof. Very sickening allegations. 

If the pot lid about to bubble off????


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## USER1999 (Mar 9, 2013)

The fact that the church think that removing a child molesting priest from his current job is sufficient to deal with the problem is appalling. They have taken the same position on this for decades. These people need to be prosecuted, along with the guys higher up who wielded the broom, and the guys who thought up the strategy. What the church needs is a massive clear out. Ideally into prisons.

I have previously read that the out going pope used to be responsible for this sort of cover up, oops, I mean investigation.


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## Hobbit (Mar 9, 2013)

murphthemog said:



			I have previously read that the out going pope used to be responsible for this sort of cover up, oops, I mean investigation.
		
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The outgoing Pope, whilst still a Cardinal, went against Pope John Paul II's wishes and those of other senior Cardinals and investigated a number of priests. He was also instrumental in taking the investigations away from the local Diocise, where many of them had been swept under the carpet.

As Pope he issued an edict that all cases of sexual abuse should be handled by the local govt authorities once the Vatican had proven the case - like many businesses investigate wrongdoings before handing them to the authorities. Was he right in doing that? No, it would have been better if professionals had handled the cases...

But is he the really the evil man that many want to portray him? Misguided yes, evil no. But as for the actions of a number of senior church officials... a few hangings wouldn't be out of place.


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## thecraw (Mar 9, 2013)

Hobbit said:



			The outgoing Pope, whilst still a Cardinal, went against Pope John Paul II's wishes and those of other senior Cardinals and investigated a number of priests. He was also instrumental in taking the investigations away from the local Diocise, where many of them had been swept under the carpet.

As Pope he issued an edict that all cases of sexual abuse should be handled by the local govt authorities once the Vatican had proven the case - like many businesses investigate wrongdoings before handing them to the authorities. Was he right in doing that? No, it would have been better if professionals had handled the cases...

But is he the really the evil man that many want to portray him? Misguided yes, evil no. But as for the actions of a number of senior church officials... a few hangings wouldn't be out of place.
		
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He is still guilty as sin of allowing a lot of atrocities to be swept under the carpet or covered up.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/15/pope-benedict-inaction-child-abuse


Disgusting.


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## Kellfire (Mar 9, 2013)

Catholic Church. Evil.

Enough said.


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## Bomber69 (Mar 9, 2013)

thecraw said:



			He is still guilty as sin of allowing a lot of atrocities to be swept under the carpet or covered up.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/15/pope-benedict-inaction-child-abuse


Disgusting.
		
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The more I read about this the more I worry, I think its more of a mafia than a church and they think they can do what ever they want and cannot be held responsible for their actions.

The old saying is there is no smoke without fire, well the chimney is under construction and the smoke is about to puff so let's hope the fire gets put out and those responsible for all these sordid actions that have been going on/allowed even in this day and age are punished and that the RC church can now be cleaned out and rid of all these criminals that have been hiding for years.

Time to come clean and move forward.


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## chris661 (Mar 9, 2013)

Bomber69 said:



			Time to come clean and move forward.
		
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Problem is I don't know if they can or anyone in the hierarchy has the stomach to deal with what would inevitably come out in the wash, but just paying lip service or brushing it under the carpet is not acceptable.


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## Bomber69 (Mar 9, 2013)

chris661 said:



			Problem is I don't know if they can or anyone in the hierarchy has the stomach to deal with what would inevitably come out in the wash, but just paying lip service or brushing it under the carpet is not acceptable.
		
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Sad thing is I think you are right, what about the people of the church do they not get a say on how the church is run or do they just follow. Maybe it's time for the church going people to stand up and ask for answers.


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 9, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Catholic Church. Evil.

Enough said. 

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What's your views on Islam then?


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## chris661 (Mar 9, 2013)

Bomber69 said:



			Sad thing is I think you are right, what about the people of the church do they not get a say on how the church is run or do they just follow. Maybe it's time for the church going people to stand up and ask for answers.
		
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Ultimately though it is a closed shop and if the hierarchy don't want to do it then it won't get done. Attitudes are changing amongst the catholic people though and eventually change will happen, probably quicker when the money starts to dry up. I saying that there are an awful lot of good people in the organisation but unfortunately it is the bad ones that are taking any good out of it.


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## thecraw (Mar 9, 2013)

Its also strongly rumoured that the reason that Pope Benedict has elected to stay in the Vatican after his resignation is to ensure that he's not extradited to face charges else where as the Italians would never hand him over. Hiding behind religion.


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 9, 2013)

thecraw said:



			Its also strongly rumoured that the reason that Pope Benedict has elected to stay in the Vatican after his resignation is to ensure that he's not extradited to face charges else where as the Italians would never hand him over. Hiding behind religion.
		
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Plenty of other rumours flying around too. We'll likely never know he truth.


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## Kellfire (Mar 9, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			What's your views on Islam then?
		
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Same.

All religions are evil; they rely on subservience by the ignorant which is disgusting.


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## stevie_r (Mar 9, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Same.

All religions are evil; they rely on subservience by the ignorant which is disgusting.
		
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The last government census has me recorded as a Jedi - we are not evil at all


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## Bomber69 (Mar 9, 2013)

chris661 said:



			Ultimately though it is a closed shop and if the hierarchy don't want to do it then it won't get done. Attitudes are changing amongst the catholic people though and eventually change will happen, probably quicker when the money starts to dry up. I saying that there are an awful lot of good people in the organisation but unfortunately it is the bad ones that are taking any good out of it.
		
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I do believe that there are good people in the church but why can't they make the difference, like all these organizations you need to stand up for what you believe in and until this happens then the corruption will alway win. Now is the time for the ordinary member of the faith to stand up and vent their anger at how things are being run and that it is now time for clarity.


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 9, 2013)

stevie_r said:



			The last government census has me recorded as a Jedi - we are not evil at all 

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All religions have their dark side.....


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 9, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Same.

All religions are evil; they rely on subservience by the ignorant which is disgusting.
		
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If you were ignorant, would you not just ignore religion then?

How would you listen to and assimilate the given information from the captains of religious dogma, if you were ignorant?

Flawed argument, I think.


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## Bomber69 (Mar 9, 2013)

FairwayDodger said:



			All religions have their dark side.....
		
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Seems some more than others.

Time for change.


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## Kellfire (Mar 9, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			If you were ignorant, would you not just ignore religion then?
		
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Nope because religion offers a crutch for the ignorant and the lazy. It's the easy way out.


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 9, 2013)

Kellfire said:



			Nope because religion offers a crutch for the ignorant and the lazy. It's the easy way out.
		
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The easy way out of what?

With so many options in the world nowadays, whether religion or not, why do you have to believe in it, especially if your lazy and ignorant?


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## Bomber69 (Mar 9, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			The easy way out of what?

With so many options in the world nowadays, whether religion or not, why do you have to believe in it, especially if your lazy and ignorant?
		
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It seems that with all the stories in the news then the people in the RC church are all guilty of being Ignorant to what has been going on in their own back yard.

Time to come clean, time for change.


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## bigslice (Mar 9, 2013)

slightly of course but worth a mention. i believe that the catholic church has a BIG say in education which is wrong. also with the diminishing numbers going to a church on a sunday. i would say very little numbers at these schools actually go to church reguarly if at all. my church was knocked down a few years ago as it wasnt cost effiecent to keep it open.
ive posted elsewhere that i was brought up a catholic but wished i wasnt. my mum still goes my gram moved next door to the church and goes every day. ive an aunt who is a nun and one of dads pals is a minister (he was a bt engineer before finding god). im on good speaking terms with at least two priests and respect their views etc . but come on god created the world???? ma asre


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 9, 2013)

Bomber69 said:



			It seems that with all the stories in the news then the people in the RC church are all guilty of being Ignorant to what has been going on in their own back yard.

Time to come clean, time for change.
		
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As posted elsewhere, catholics are saying that there are major problems. Not every catholic chooses to believe via their church though.

If you are not happy with what the british government do, do you always walk on parliament?


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 9, 2013)

bigslice said:



			slightly of course but worth a mention. i believe that the catholic church has a BIG say in education which is wrong. also with the diminishing numbers going to a church on a sunday. i would say very little numbers at these schools actually go to church reguarly if at all. my church was knocked down a few years ago as it wasnt cost effiecent to keep it open.
ive posted elsewhere that i was brought up a catholic but wished i wasnt. my mum still goes my gram moved next door to the church and goes every day. ive an aunt who is a nun and one of dads pals is a minister (he was a bt engineer before finding god). im on good speaking terms with at least two priests and respect their views etc . but come on god created the world???? ma asre
		
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And I thought God made your swing on the eigth day.:fore:ne:


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## Bomber69 (Mar 9, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			As posted elsewhere, catholics are saying that there are major problems. Not every catholic chooses to believe via their church though.

If you are not happy with what the british government do, do you always walk on parliament?
		
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I am not all that happy with what the government do but remember we get to vote every 4-5 years as to which party we think will do the best by us, the Catholic church is a closed house and the followers only follow and have no say on how the church is run and by the looks of things it is not being run very well. And it seems that the members of The RC Church are willing to turn a blind eye and not question their leaders, now could same same be said for the same members if they did not agree as to what was happening in the work place....... I think not........ So why don't they follow the same princaples for their faith.

Maybe if they did so this dreadful behaviour would be stopped and people could start believing again.


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 9, 2013)

Bomber69 said:



			I am not all that happy with what the government do but remember we get to vote every 4-5 years as to which party we think will do the best by us, the Catholic church is a closed house and the followers only follow and have no say on how the church is run and by the looks of things it is not being run very well. And it seems that the members of The RC Church are willing to turn a blind eye and not question their leaders, now could same same be said for the same members if they did not agree as to what was happening in the work place....... I think not........ So why don't they follow the same princaples for their faith.

Maybe if they did so this dreadful behaviour would be stopped and people could start believing again.
		
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As I've said elsewhere, I think the rank and file of the catholic faith should and hopefully will have more input in the future.

I still don't think it will have any effect on non-believers though.


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## Bomber69 (Mar 9, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			As I've said elsewhere, I think the rank and file of the catholic faith should and hopefully will have more input in the future.

I still don't think it will have any effect on non-believers though.
		
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You got to question that given all this fresh information and allegations, is there any believers left.......


I think that over the next few weeks it will only get worse as more complaints come to light.


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 9, 2013)

Bomber69 said:



			You got to question that given all this fresh information and allegations, is there any believers left.......


I think that over the next few weeks it will only get worse as more complaints come to light.
		
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This is the crux though, people believe in Christianity, not Catholicism per se.

They may move away from that religion, but will still believe in God. Catholicism is just a medium.


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## Bomber69 (Mar 9, 2013)

A leading Scottish solicitor believes a change to the law making it easier for sexual abuse victims to claim compensation could be considered in light of fresh allegations against the Catholic Church.

Cameron Fyfe is acting on behalf of six clients who claim they were abused by priests, two of whom came forward in the weeks since Cardinal Keith O'Brien resigned after admitting sexual misconduct.

It follows reports that bishops in the Scottish Catholic Church knew of 20 allegations of child sex abuse between 1985 and 1995.

Mr Fyfe said: "I'm acting for six clients who allege they were abused by priests, some in the 1980s, some in the 1990s. One we have raised a court action over in the Court of Session and one we're just about to raise a court action over. The other four we're currently investigating.

"Two of the victims were abused in the early 1980s, two towards the end of the 1980s, and two relatively recently in the mid-1990s. Two say they were raped by the priest in question; the others suffered serious sexual abuse.â€

Mr Fyfe complained that the â€œtime barâ€ in Scots law, which gives claimants a set period of time in which they must raise an action, was unfair.

He explained: "There's a rule in Scots law that you're supposed to raise an action within three years of abuse or, if you're a child, three years of your 16th birthday, which in my mind is totally unrealistic because victims of sexual abuse hide their memories inside them. But the Catholic Church have always used this time bar as a defence and I think they'll use it in this case as well. As a result of that, they could well escape liability."

The solicitor added that recent events could give weight to his campaign for a change in the law around the time bar.

He continued: "For ten or 15 years, I've been trying to have that law changed. I took two cases all the way to the House of Lords, as it was back then, but without success. I've tried to campaign for the Scottish Parliament to change the law as well, again without success. But it may be that this raft of cases which are now coming through will make the authorities change the law because it's so unfair on victims who've hidden these feelings inside them for many, many years that they cannot then claim compensation."

The Catholic Church has previously renewed its apology to those whose complaints were not taken seriously in the past and insists that all cases are passed on to the police for further investigation.

A spokesman for the Church could not be reached by STV News on Saturday.


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## Liverbirdie (Mar 9, 2013)

Bomber69 said:



			A leading Scottish solicitor believes a change to the law making it easier for sexual abuse victims to claim compensation could be considered in light of fresh allegations against the Catholic Church.

Cameron Fyfe is acting on behalf of six clients who claim they were abused by priests, two of whom came forward in the weeks since Cardinal Keith O'Brien resigned after admitting sexual misconduct.

It follows reports that bishops in the Scottish Catholic Church knew of 20 allegations of child sex abuse between 1985 and 1995.

Mr Fyfe said: "I'm acting for six clients who allege they were abused by priests, some in the 1980s, some in the 1990s. One we have raised a court action over in the Court of Session and one we're just about to raise a court action over. The other four we're currently investigating.

"Two of the victims were abused in the early 1980s, two towards the end of the 1980s, and two relatively recently in the mid-1990s. Two say they were raped by the priest in question; the others suffered serious sexual abuse.â€

Mr Fyfe complained that the â€œtime barâ€ in Scots law, which gives claimants a set period of time in which they must raise an action, was unfair.

He explained: "There's a rule in Scots law that you're supposed to raise an action within three years of abuse or, if you're a child, three years of your 16th birthday, which in my mind is totally unrealistic because victims of sexual abuse hide their memories inside them. But the Catholic Church have always used this time bar as a defence and I think they'll use it in this case as well. As a result of that, they could well escape liability."

The solicitor added that recent events could give weight to his campaign for a change in the law around the time bar.

He continued: "For ten or 15 years, I've been trying to have that law changed. I took two cases all the way to the House of Lords, as it was back then, but without success. I've tried to campaign for the Scottish Parliament to change the law as well, again without success. But it may be that this raft of cases which are now coming through will make the authorities change the law because it's so unfair on victims who've hidden these feelings inside them for many, many years that they cannot then claim compensation."

The Catholic Church has previously renewed its apology to those whose complaints were not taken seriously in the past and insists that all cases are passed on to the police for further investigation.

A spokesman for the Church could not be reached by STV News on Saturday.
		
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My word, you typed that quick - are you the supreme being?


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## Bomber69 (Mar 9, 2013)

Priest abuse claims: 'I struggle every day'

One alleged victim told the BBC people had to seek out help
Continue reading the main story
Related Stories

Church 'knew of priest abuse claims'
BBC Scotland has seen evidence that bishops in the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland knew of 20 allegations of child sex abuse by priests from 1985 to 1995.

Another alleged victim of abuse says his life has been ruined.

Continue reading the main story
â€œ
Start Quote

I genuinely used to wake up every morning believing there was no hopeâ€

'Chris'
The man, named by the BBC as "Chris", has encouraged others to speak out.

The Church said all allegations of abuse were passed to the police.

Chris, whose identity is not being published to protect his anonymity, is another who claims he was abused by his local priest.

He was not one of the 20 alleged victims identified in the decade up to 1995.

Chris received help through counselling and through groups which work with people who have been abused. His advice for anyone in the same situation is to find someone who they can talk to.

He said: "There's many people out there that have been abused. Have the strength to speak to somebody and know that there are other people out there like you who are suffering. You're not on your own.

"Speak to your GP, or a friend, someone you trust with that information.

"I think unless I'd found the support network through my counselling, I genuinely used to wake up every morning believing there was no hope. I think that's a big problem.

"We've still got a lot of stigma against mental illness, especially when it's been caused by something like this. People can't talk about it so no-one understands why they're depressed, no-one understands why they do what they do, what their mental thought process is.

"Have the strength to speak to somebody and know that there are other people out there like you who are suffering. You're not on your own."

Sex acts
Chris claims he was abused as a minor and informed the Church in 2012.

He said: "He would get me to perform sexual acts on him, and he would perform sexual acts on me - away from the family home, in the family home, in the church, in their vehicle.

"There's many people out there that have been abused, personally, it's a way of being able to admit that it did happen to me and it wasn't my fault, because that's something I struggle with every day.

"But also to try and give hope to people that have been abused - don't be scared, there's help out there for you."

Safeguards

In May 2011 Pope Benedict issued guidelines telling bishops around the world they had a duty to promptly report all allegations of sexual abuse of minors by priests to local police.

A spokesman for the Church said this case of Chris "was handled in complete accordance with the guidelines".

He added: "As soon as the complaint was reported, the police were informed, the priest concerned was removed from his parish and after they investigated the police passed a report to the procurator fiscal, who took no further action. The Church sent its file to the Vatican in July last year and now awaits a decision."

The Church also pointed out it has, since 1999, had nationally agreed guidelines on the protection of children and vulnerable adults.

The spokesman said: "In 2003, as well as existing Diocesan protection staff, the Church appointed a National Director of Child protection. Ten years later that post now titled; National Co-ordinator remains a key part of our safeguarding structures."


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 10, 2013)

Liverbirdie said:



			My word, you typed that quick - are you the supreme being? 

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No. He's just a very naughty boy.


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## Val (Mar 10, 2013)

thecraw said:



			Its also strongly rumoured that the reason that Pope Benedict has elected to stay in the Vatican after his resignation is to ensure that he's not extradited to face charges else where as the Italians would never hand him over. Hiding behind religion.
		
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Rumours you say 

Rumours are exactly that, allegations with a bit of substance are a different kettle of fish.

The Catholic Church does need cleaning up from the top for sure but not every apple is bad and not all top cardinals and senior clergyman should be tarred with the same brush.

To say the ex pope is hiding is nonsense


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## thecraw (Mar 10, 2013)

Valentino said:



			Rumours you say 

Rumours are exactly that, allegations with a bit of substance are a different kettle of fish.

The Catholic Church does need cleaning up from the top for sure but not every apple is bad and not all top cardinals and senior clergyman should be tarred with the same brush.

To say the ex pope is hiding is nonsense
		
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Rumours indeed. It is however 100% correct that lawyers were blocked in attempts to have him arrested on entry to Britain due to his Diplomatic Immunity. He was wanted in relation to child abuse scandal. No smoke without fire buddy!


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## PhilTheFragger (Mar 10, 2013)

thecraw said:



			Rumours indeed. It is however 100% correct that lawyers were blocked in attempts to have him arrested on entry to Britain due to his Diplomatic Immunity. He was wanted in relation to child abuse scandal. No smoke without fire buddy!
		
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That would have gone down well, pope getting banged up, I can imagine the international uproar that would ensue...
Would put an end to our Eurovision Song Contest chances for ever


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## Val (Mar 10, 2013)

thecraw said:



			Rumours indeed. It is however 100% correct that lawyers were blocked in attempts to have him arrested on entry to Britain due to his Diplomatic Immunity. He was wanted in relation to child abuse scandal. No smoke without fire buddy!
		
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Maybe so but let me ask this question, if there was potential for him to be arrested had he no diplomatic immunity then surely remaining as pope would be the most sensible thing for him to do to avoid arrest.

At the end of the day no one will ever know all the stories.

The next Pope has a big job galvanising the congregation and cleaning up the top clergymen.


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## thecraw (Mar 10, 2013)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/17/pope-immunity_n_2708518.html


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## Val (Mar 10, 2013)

thecraw said:



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/17/pope-immunity_n_2708518.html

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Have you read the article or did you just find it and fancy it would tick the boxes?

No where in the article is there any mention the Pope would face any legal case, it suggest there may be potential cases but I see no where saying anything for definate.


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