# handicap cut by 3  is it fair and correct



## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

Hi folks, my handicap was 26 and I hit a round of net 76   so they cut my handicap to 23. When I asked him why his reply was "because I can" I had 2 10's on my card and 3 7's  he then said it was of stableford adjustment but it was a stroke play comp. With preferred lies through the greens , mats were optional
Also i have never broken 100
This now means i need to improve by arround 14 shots in 7 days to have any chance of winning next week

Seems a bit harsh to me
Your thoughts please

MIke


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## BTatHome (Mar 9, 2014)

Stableford adjustment is how all handicaps are calculated, and would have take those 10's and 7's to something less ... Without knowing further details of the comp CSS and what SI those blow ups occurred on its difficult to be 100% sure if the cut is correct.


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

course is par 71
I hit 10 on a par5  si2
10 on a par5 si7
7 on a par3 si15
7 on a par4 si1
And 7 on a par par 5 si3


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## G1BB0 (Mar 9, 2014)

Mike, I posted similar last year, won a comp and had 2 runners up and got cut to 21 by ESR so a 5.4 shot cut. I wasnt happy but at the same time thought I have played to that so can maintain it, a few ups and downs since and off 22 over a year later. You will either have a lot of 0.1's or find the challenge is just what you needed.

Enjoy the new h/c and dont worry if you dont play to it, if they are wrong then I am sure it will get amended in due course.


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2014)

Was it just a throwaway comment by the H/Sec?

If you can say what the SI and Par of the holes you made the big numbers on was, then it will be clearer. And the CSS of the comp too. Stableford Adjustment  (cutting a high score to the equivalent of 0 points) means that it's often simpler to guage your score by using Stableford - against Par and CSS. The other thing to check is how many comps you have played since being allocated the 26. Oh, and what was your old Exact handicap and what is your new one? as even coming down 1 shot better than 2.0 can easily mean 3 shots off your Playing handicap.

And another question. Are you playing comps to win? Or to become a lower handicap (better) golfer?

If it has been done purely by the system, you have actually played to a lower handicap than one you are now on, so there should be no need for thoughts about not being able to play to it. And that can be shown if you provide the details above too.


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

I have posted si's and par  what does css mean please

I was 28 and wone a 9 hole mid week so I lost 2 in sept  today they have tahen 3 giving me 26.0
 I' only played in around 4 comps since sept and hit 108 104 107 102

Id like to hit par for course but theyr making it harder for me


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2014)

mike912 said:



			course is par 71
I hit 10 on a par5  si2
10 on a par5 si7
7 on a par3 si15
7 on a par4 si1
And 7 on a par par 5 si3
		
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S/A 1
S/A 1
S/A 1
S/A 0
S/A 0 

So *3 shots total Stableford Adjustment*. Are you sure that wasn't what he said? As opposed to 3 shots handicap adjustment!


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

Css72 par 71


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

I can understand stableford adjustment but it gives me no chance on stroke comps


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## Andy (Mar 9, 2014)

So you want to win comps but not have your handicap cut?


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2014)

CSS is based on SSS, which needs to be explained first.

Each course is Rated in order that a handicap held at a Tough course can be equated to one held at a more forgiving course. So the tough course could have SSS 1 or 2 over Par, while the forgiving can have a SSS 2 or 3 below par.

CSS applies a formula based on the scores on the day to adjust SSS slightly 'for the conditions on the day'.

Your score wouldn't have been particularly special, so I reckon that 3 shot Stableford Adjustment was what the H/Sec mentioned. That would put 'in buffer' - as you would have been (just) without them. Actually quite 'consistent' for someone at your level, so likely to get another cut soon.



mike912 said:



			I can understand stableford adjustment but it gives me no chance on stroke comps
		
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Stop scoring such big numbers! :rofl:

The lower handicappers would say it gives you an advantage in Stableford comps! Which is why comps are often split into Divisions.


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

Yes and he has taken 3 shots off my handicap


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

Andy said:



			So you want to win comps but not have your handicap cut?
		
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No I just want to get round on par  Im 5 over playing off 26 and now I loose another3


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			S/A 1
S/A 1
S/A 1
S/A 0
S/A 0 

So *3 shots total Stableford Adjustment*. Are you sure that wasn't what he said? As opposed to 3 shots handicap adjustment!
		
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He said that but hes taken 3 off my handicap


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			CSS is based on SSS, which needs to be explained first.

Each course is Rated in order that a handicap held at a Tough course can be equated to one held at a more forgiving course. So the tough course could have SSS 1 or 2 over Par, while the forgiving can have a SSS 2 or 3 below par.

CSS applies a formula based on the scores on the day to adjust SSS slightly 'for the conditions on the day'.

Your score wouldn't have been particularly special, so I reckon that 3 shot Stableford Adjustment was what the H/Sec mentioned. That would put 'in buffer' - as you would have been (just) without them. Actually quite 'consistent' for someone at your level, so likely to get another cut soon.



Stop scoring such big numbers! :rofl:

The lower handicappers would say it gives you an advantage in Stableford comps! Which is why comps are often split into Divisions.
		
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Gonna have to stop scoring such big numbers  lolne:


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2014)

mike912 said:



			Yes and he has taken 3 shots off my handicap
		
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As your scores don't indicate any automatic reduction, he may have decided that the initial allocation was too high - which he can do. Have you actually seen that your handicap is now 23? That 3 shot Stableford Adjustment seems rather coincidental. Is the club on HowDidIDo or HandicapMaster? Though HowDidIDo may not reflect what is actually on the Club System (which is the Official one). 

Certainly important to check your handicap, if it's not been printed on the card, before next compo because if you play off one that's higher than your official one, you get Disqualified from the comp!


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

I on howdidido  it says 26 on that but 23 on club computer


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## Tashyboy (Mar 9, 2014)

mike912 said:



			Hi folks, my handicap was 26 and I hit a round of net 76   so they cut my handicap to 23. When I asked him why his reply was "because I can" I had 2 10's on my card and 3 7's  he then said it was of stableford adjustment but it was a stroke play comp. With preferred lies through the greens , mats were optional
Also i have never broken 100
This now means i need to improve by arround 14 shots in 7 days to have any chance of winning next week

Seems a bit harsh to me
Your thoughts please

MIke
		
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Mike from someone who is playing off 23.6 = 24 and is busting a gut to get below 20 all I can say is congratulations.

I played my first comp last year captains day and flipping won it playing off 27. Summation I was dropped 2.8 and was mega mega narked. Why coz the following week someone won a mid week comp playing off 27 got 42 points same as me but was dropped 2.8 plus 2.0 for exceptional play. Why because he shot 6 pars but blobbed on 4 but I only blobbed on 1 what's that all about. In my way of thinking I was more consistent on a pressure day and he shot a similar score on a knockabout comp.

Over the season it will level itself out


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## markgs (Mar 9, 2014)

good you should be drooped too, its the name of the game


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			Mike from someone who is playing off 23.6 = 24 and is busting a gut to get below 20 all I can say is congratulations.

I played my first comp last year captains day and flipping won it playing off 27. Summation I was dropped 2.8 and was mega mega narked. Why coz the following week someone won a mid week comp playing off 27 got 42 points same as me but was dropped 2.8 plus 2.0 for exceptional play. Why because he shot 6 pars but blobbed on 4 but I only blobbed on 1 what's that all about. In my way of thinking I was more consistent on a pressure day and he shot a similar score on a knockabout comp.

Over the season it will level itself out
		
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The thing that gets me is ive not improved from sept when they docked me 2 for winnind a mid week 9 hole comp so why now


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## Andy (Mar 9, 2014)

mike912 said:



			No I just want to get round on par  Im 5 over playing off 26 and now I loose another3
		
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If you eradicate the huge numbers it could happen, but getting your handicap reduced is the name of the game!


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

Surley your handicap is to help you reach the course par????


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

Andy said:



			So you want to win comps but not have your handicap cut?
		
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Well id like a chance to reach level par


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 9, 2014)

mike912 said:



			Surley your handicap is to help you reach the course par????
		
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No, improving your ability is the way to reach course par. 31 over par is still 31 over par, whatever your handicap is.


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## G1BB0 (Mar 9, 2014)

we all want to play to handicap but it wont happen every week. some weeks miles over some miles under or slightly under, unless playing most days and practicing loads then it will plateau. seriously, I would take it as a compliment and a challenge!

either way just go out and play, the scores will take care of themselves :thup:


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## Andy808 (Mar 9, 2014)

Just don't do what I did for the last 2 weekends. 
Last weekend birdied 3 holes and parred 7 others and beat the HC comittee chairman in the mens knockout and then parred the first four holes on the front nine then birdied the first two holes on the back nine with two more pars for good measure playingin the medal this weekend.
 I can see a cut coming in the very near future!


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## Andy (Mar 9, 2014)

mike912 said:



			Well id like a chance to reach level par
		
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Cut out the 10's and 7's then.


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## rosecott (Mar 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			As your scores don't indicate any automatic reduction, he may have decided that the initial allocation was too high - which he can do.
		
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It would seem to be some time since the initial allocation as he says he was reduced by 2 strokes following a 9-hole comp in September last year. It would be stretching it a bit to use the incorrect allocation card this long after the initial allocation.


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

Andy said:



			Cut out the 10's and 7's then.
		
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I am trying andy  lol  believe me I am trying  lmao


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## Hobbit (Mar 9, 2014)

mike912 said:



			course is par 71
I hit 10 on a par5  si2
10 on a par5 si7
7 on a par3 si15
7 on a par4 si1
And 7 on a par par 5 si3
		
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19 over for 5 holes leaves you 7 over for the other 13. I'd say you're on the verge of shooting in the teens, or at least posting a score that will see you (unfairly) labelled a bandit. I think your handicap sec has seen what you did last year, and the potential with so many pars in your last round, and stopped you from posting something like 10 under h'cap and embarrassing him.

Take the positives from it and enjoy the cut.


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## markgs (Mar 9, 2014)

people that have high handicap should want to reduce it, not rely on double shots. Personally i think the max handicap should be 18


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2014)

mike912 said:



			Surley your handicap is to help you reach the course par????
		
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Actually, it's really only to rate you so 2 players should have an 'equal chance' of winning.



mike912 said:



			Well id like a chance to reach level par
		
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Nett? Or Gross!

Presuming it's nett, then a 'stable' player (neither improving markedly nor getting noticeably poorer) will only play to their handicap or better about 10-20% of the time! The other times they will either play within buffer, and at your level (Cat 4) that's up to 4 shots over, or worse - for which the handicap only goes up 0.1 irrespective of how many over you are. On the occasions where he plays under handicap, he gets cut quite severely (0.4 *for every shot below handicap* in your case). 

Improving players -m and I expect you are/will be one can win quite a few competitions on their way down to 'stability'. Some Handicap Secretaries - especially in Scotland - keep a very close eye on such players. The 'especially in Scotland' is because they don't have the same mechanism that the other Unions have - for Exceptional Scores Reductions (ESRs). These ESRs are 'after the event' reductions. The 'active Handicap Secretary' is often 'before the event'. The pros and cons of each can be argued forever! I favour the ESR approach - because of its consistency - but can see its disadvantages, especially at this time of year, when Winter practice can mean big improvements may have been made.



Hobbit said:



			19 over for 5 holes leaves you 7 over for the other 13. I'd say you're on the verge of shooting in the teens, or at least posting a score that will see you (unfairly) labelled a bandit. I think your handicap sec has seen what you did last year, and the potential with so many pars in your last round, and stopped you from posting something like 10 under h'cap and embarrassing him.
		
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Notwithstanding that it's actuallly 12 over (Net 76 on Par 71) for the 13 (11 over CSS), I believe you are correct. How many birdies in there? 

Active Handicap Secy? Not sure how many of them are still doing pre-emptive cuts in England.

@Mike Are you based in Scotland?


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## EarCat (Mar 9, 2014)

I feel that you are looking for sympathy that is not coming your way, no one over the age of 16 should have more than one shot per hole.


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

EarCat said:



			I feel that you are looking for sympathy that is not coming your way, no one over the age of 16 should have more than one shot per hole.
		
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Not looking for sympathy at all  so please do not think that.............. I presume from that comment you are a low handicapper

Nuff said


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## Andy (Mar 9, 2014)

mike912 said:



			I am trying andy  lol  believe me I am trying  lmao
		
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Stick at it then, there's no better feeling than supping a few cold beers reflecting on a good round and handicap cut.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 9, 2014)

Your post gives the impression that you wish to retain a false handicap to gain an advantage over other players.
I hope that is not the case.
You should be playing for the love of the game and not be fixated on prizes.
Something very fishy about any golfer who complains about a handicap cut.


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## JCW (Mar 9, 2014)

mike912 said:



			Hi folks, my handicap was 26 and I hit a round of net 76   so they cut my handicap to 23. When I asked him why his reply was "because I can" I had 2 10's on my card and 3 7's  he then said it was of stableford adjustment but it was a stroke play comp. With preferred lies through the greens , mats were optional
Also i have never broken 100
This now means i need to improve by arround 14 shots in 7 days to have any chance of winning next week

Seems a bit harsh to me
Your thoughts please

MIke
		
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I feel sorry for you , If you play in comps that`s  what happens and you just have to except it as thats the rules , Its there for a reason as I have known of guys that are of high handicaps playing well and then knowing they going to get cut so they finish with a couple of big scores so end up in the buffer, in fact its not only them as mid range handicappers have done  it too and I am not saying that you have , The rule is not there for that but it stops it and the object to playing in comps is to win and reduces one`s handicap is it not ..........................EYG


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## davidy233 (Mar 9, 2014)

mike912 said:



			Not looking for sympathy at all  so please do not think that.............. I presume from that comment you are a low handicapper

Nuff said
		
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I'm not low (look at my sig) and I kind of agree that nobody should get more than a shot a hole - I've been down to 17 handicap - It's not any harder to play to that than 21 if you play regularly - you just have to put the time in - I haven't in the last decade)

If my club want to drop me three shots I'd be delighted - would make me work harder to play to it.


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## Break90 (Mar 9, 2014)

I'd be over the moon to get my handicap down by 3 shots in one fell swoop. 

In fact I'll be over the moon to reduce by 3 shots in the next 6 months


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

[QUOTEFoxholer;1016507]Actually, it's really only to rate you so 2 players should have an 'equal chance' of winning.



Nett? Or Gross!

Presuming it's nett, then a 'stable' player (neither improving markedly nor getting noticeably poorer) will only play to their handicap or better about 10-20% of the time! The other times they will either play within buffer, and at your level (Cat 4) that's up to 4 shots over, or worse - for which the handicap only goes up 0.1 irrespective of how many over you are. On the occasions where he plays under handicap, he gets cut quite severely (0.4 *for every shot below handicap* in your case). 

Improving players -m and I expect you are/will be one can win quite a few competitions on their way down to 'stability'. Some Handicap Secretaries - especially in Scotland - keep a very close eye on such players. The 'especially in Scotland' is because they don't have the same mechanism that the other Unions have - for Exceptional Scores Reductions (ESRs). These ESRs are 'after the event' reductions. The 'active Handicap Secretary' is often 'before the event'. The pros and cons of each can be argued forever! I favour the ESR approach - because of its consistency - but can see its disadvantages, especially at this time of year, when Winter practice can mean big improvements may have been made.



Notwithstanding that it's actuallly 12 over (Net 76 on Par 71) for the 13 (11 over CSS), I believe you are correct. How many birdies in there? 

Active Handicap Secy? Not sure how many of them are still doing pre-emptive cuts in England.

@Mike Are you based in Scotland?[/QUOTE]

Based In england and no birdies


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

davidy233 said:



			I'm not low (look at my sig) and I kind of agree that nobody should get more than a shot a hole - I've been down to 17 handicap - It's not any harder to play to that than 21 if you play regularly - you just have to put the time in - I haven't in the last decade)

If my club want to drop me three shots I'd be delighted - would make me work harder to play to it.
		
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Id be delighted to be cut but just dont think Its justified at the min


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

Dion frae Troon said:



			Your post gives the impression wish to retain a false handicap to gain an advantage over other players.
I hope that is not the case.
You should be playing for the love of the game and not be fixated on prizes.
Something very fishy about any golfer who complains about a handicap cut.
		
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I enter comps to try to play my best golf to win yes 
Winning scores are usually 65
My best Is 76 off 26
I now have an extra 3 shots to loose
YES  I want my handicap to go down but would also like to be competitive


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

JCW said:



			I feel sorry for you , If you play in comps that`s  what happens and you just have to except it as thats the rules , Its there for a reason as I have known of guys that are of high handicaps playing well and then knowing they going to get cut so they finish with a couple of big scores so end up in the buffer, in fact its not only them as mid range handicappers have done  it too and I am not saying that you have , The rule is not there for that but it stops it and the object to playing in comps is to win and reduces one`s handicap is it not ..........................EYG[/QUOTE

I enter comps to try to play my best golf to win yes 
Winning scores are usually 65
My best Is 76 off 26
I now have an extra 3 shots to loose
YES I want my handicap to go down but would also like to be competitive
		
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## Wayman (Mar 9, 2014)

Congrats on the cut


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

Wayman said:



			Congrats on the cut
		
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Thanks  (I think)  lol


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 9, 2014)

mike912 said:



			I enter comps to try to play my best golf to win yes 
Winning scores are usually 65
My best Is 76 off 26
I now have an extra 3 shots to loose
YES  I want my handicap to go down but would also like to be competitive
		
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A 76 with two 10's and three 7's. which makes it is the equivalent of a 67/68.


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## CMAC (Mar 9, 2014)

in mens comps the max h/cap to win should be 18 IMO. I don't mind the other h/caps (we all started high) but they should be for h/cap only with their own sweep if they so desire. You can still 'win' the comp but only once 18 strokes are taken off.

Just my (probably unpopular) opinion, apologies for going slightly off topic


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## fundy (Mar 9, 2014)

I actually have a bit of sympathy for the Op here personally. Hes obviously quite new to the game, not broken a 100 yet but has had 2 cuts to take him from 28 to 23. Its all well and good for those of us who understand the handicap system etc but for a newish golfer it does seem as though the system is getting ahead of him and making the game harder for him before he's even won anything


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## markgs (Mar 9, 2014)

CMAC said:



			in mens comps the max h/cap to win should be 18 IMO. I don't mind the other h/caps (we all started high) but they should be for h/cap only with their own sweep if they so desire. You can still 'win' the comp but only once 18 strokes are taken off.

Just my (probably unpopular) opinion, apologies for going slightly off topic
		
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I agree, i played in a comp today with a 28 handicapper, i was on 22 points front 9 played really well, looked at the guy i was scorings card who hacked his way around 23 point. My heart sunk i then tried my best on back 9 just could not contend with all the shoots he had. Even when he was 3 off the tee still getting 8 for 1 point of par 5.... 18 should be max


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2014)

CMAC said:



			in mens comps the max h/cap to win should be 18 IMO. I don't mind the other h/caps (we all started high) but they should be for h/cap only with their own sweep if they so desire. You can still 'win' the comp but only once 18 strokes are taken off.

Just my (probably unpopular) opinion, apologies for going slightly off topic
		
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Or have Divisions, say 0-10, 11-18, 19+


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## JCW (Mar 9, 2014)

mike912 said:





JCW said:



			I feel sorry for you , If you play in comps that`s  what happens and you just have to except it as thats the rules , Its there for a reason as I have known of guys that are of high handicaps playing well and then knowing they going to get cut so they finish with a couple of big scores so end up in the buffer, in fact its not only them as mid range handicappers have done  it too and I am not saying that you have , The rule is not there for that but it stops it and the object to playing in comps is to win and reduces one`s handicap is it not ..........................EYG[/QUOTE

I enter comps to try to play my best golf to win yes 
Winning scores are usually 65
My best Is 76 off 26
I now have an extra 3 shots to loose
YES I want my handicap to go down but would also like to be competitive
		
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I am sure you will , now you have to look at reasons why you had them10s n 7s , was it poor club or shot selection or just poor course management , could you have scored better as you now have 3 shots less to play with ..................................

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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

fundy said:



			I actually have a bit of sympathy for the Op here personally. Hes obviously quite new to the game, not broken a 100 yet but has had 2 cuts to take him from 28 to 23. Its all well and good for those of us who understand the handicap system etc but for a newish golfer it does seem as though the system is getting ahead of him and making the game harder for him before he's even won anything
		
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You have hit the nail on the head fundy.  thank you


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

JCW said:





mike912 said:



			I am sure you will , now you have to look at reasons why you had them10s n 7s , was it poor club or shot selection or just poor course management , could you have scored better as you now have 3 shots less to play with ..................................

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Just duff shots
		
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## Tashyboy (Mar 9, 2014)

EarCat said:



			I feel that you are looking for sympathy that is not coming your way, no one over the age of 16 should have more than one shot per hole.
		
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Yeah they should. But am not goin into that one.


1, if you shoot a 10 on a par 5 they will only count it as  a seven. Seven on a par forum it's a six.

2, secondly, what is the actual law on comps and handicap scoring during the winter, because all of the comps at our course have been non qualifiers. So why are some courses cutting handicaps and not others


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## markgs (Mar 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Or have Divisions, say 0-10, 11-18, 19+
		
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very good idea that if your getting 2 shoots on any one hole you should be in different league just dont think its fair, birdie on a par 5 with 2 shoots on 4 for 5 points!!! so wrong,


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			Yeah they should. But am not goin into that one.


1, if you shoot a 10 on a par 5 they will only count it as  a seven. Seven on a par forum it's a six.

2, secondly, what is the actual law on comps and handicap scoring during the winter, because all of the comps at our course have been non qualifiers. So why are some courses cutting handicaps and not others
		
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It was a none qualifier


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## Tashyboy (Mar 9, 2014)

So how can the score be dropped on a non qualifier


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## CMAC (Mar 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Or have Divisions, say 0-10, 11-18, 19+
		
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divisions are fine but without 19+.


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			So how can the score be dropped on a non qualifier
		
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Even club pro said they couldnt dock me

I give in....... thinking of changing clubs


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			1, if you shoot a 10 on a par 5 they will only count it as  a seven. Seven on a par forum it's a six.
		
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Depends on the SI of the hole - it'll be whatever the lowest score that scores 0 Stableford points - 9 in the case of the OPs Par 5s...



Tashyboy said:



			2, secondly, what is the actual law on comps and handicap scoring during the winter, because all of the comps at our course have been non qualifiers. So why are some courses cutting handicaps and not others
		
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If the comps are non-qualifying, then there should be no changes to handicaps! Winter doesn't necessarily mean Non-Qualifying though. Too short, all bunkers out of play or too many temp greens will make it NQ though. Preferred Lies, closely cut, does not make it NQ - up until end of March (or later with permission).

You should ask why your comps have been NQs - probably because course shortened > 100yds from Measured Course.

Mike. If it really was a NQ, you should ask why you are being cut. There is provision for it, but it's meant to be used for 'Exceptional Circumstances' with 'compelling evidence'. And you may also have been considered in the Annual Review - even though there weren't enough  scores for consideration by the system. Don't argue with the guy, just ask for an explanation why. And be pleased about it!


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## rosecott (Mar 9, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			2, secondly, what is the actual law on comps and handicap scoring during the winter, because all of the comps at our course have been non qualifiers. So why are some courses cutting handicaps and not others
		
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Because some courses - mine for one - play qualifiers throughout the year, and so should many who don't. I know of quite a number of clubs where the course is on normal greens and tees and playing to the measured length but their committee do not follow CONGU guidelines which expect clubs to play qualifiers under those conditions.


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## Jason Daisycutter (Mar 9, 2014)

mike912 said:



			Even club pro said they couldnt dock me

I give in....... thinking of changing clubs
		
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Hcp can be cut on non qualifier but can't go up, same will happen at the next club too...


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## markgs (Mar 9, 2014)

you can get dropped on general play, i got docked for that once


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## rosecott (Mar 9, 2014)

Jason Daisycutter said:



			Hcp can be cut on non qualifier but can't go up, same will happen at the next club too...
		
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markgs said:



			you can get dropped on general play, i got docked for that once
		
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It is not permitted to reduce handicaps based purely on one single non-qualifier.


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

I am just confused about it I think . ?......  ill take it as a compliment that they feel so threatened by a man that has not broken 100 that they need to take 3 off me  lol


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## Twin Lakes (Mar 9, 2014)

EarCat said:



			, no one over the age of 16 should have more than one shot per hole.
		
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This, unless it's a lady,


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## Jason Daisycutter (Mar 9, 2014)

rosecott said:



			It is not permitted to reduce handicaps based purely on one single non-qualifier.
		
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Are you 100% sure about that?


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## rosecott (Mar 9, 2014)

Jason Daisycutter said:



			Are you 100% sure about that?
		
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Yes.


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## fundy (Mar 9, 2014)

Jason Daisycutter said:



			Are you 100% sure about that?
		
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the problem is, about 70% of handicap secretaries arent


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## didsbury_duffer (Mar 9, 2014)

If you were off a shortened course which is probably not measured, and if some players were playing off mats because they were optional, then I'm pretty sure that the comp CANNOT be a qualifying comp, and so he cannot reduce your handicap based on that comp at all.  If he has reduced you on general play for some other reason, then that is different.


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2014)

Jason Daisycutter said:



			Hcp can be cut on non qualifier but can't go up, same will happen at the next club too...
		
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I think you might be confusing 'non-qualifier' with 'reduction only'. Pretty common mistake in terms.


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## Jason Daisycutter (Mar 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I think you might be confusing 'non-qualifier' with 'reduction only'. Pretty common mistake in terms.
		
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I haven't had a handicap since 1993, but back then the were "non counters" competitions where due to course conditions your handicap could not go up, but you could get cut. The match and handicap committee could cut you at any time though (think there was a handicap restriction to this though).


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 9, 2014)

Twin Lakes said:



			^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This, unless it's a lady,
		
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Why would that make a difference?


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2014)

rosecott said:



			It is not permitted to reduce handicaps based purely on one single non-qualifier.
		
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I don't believe it's expressly forbidden.

But the wording in the A/R Guidance is along the lines of 'Decisions made on the basis of a 'knee-jerk' reaction to a single good score or performance are seldom justifiable'. That and the 'Exceptional Circumstances' and 'Compelling evidence' for GPAs certainly make it highly questionable!


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## Golfmmad (Mar 9, 2014)

fundy said:



			I actually have a bit of sympathy for the Op here personally. Hes obviously quite new to the game, not broken a 100 yet but has had 2 cuts to take him from 28 to 23. Its all well and good for those of us who understand the handicap system etc but for a newish golfer it does seem as though the system is getting ahead of him and making the game harder for him before he's even won anything
		
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This is just how I see it.

How can anyone who has never shot below 100 be cut to 23?


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## garyinderry (Mar 9, 2014)

because 28 handicaps will always struggle at medal rounds but he has probably shown enough promise to one day soon shoot a very good stableford score. 


plenty of 23 handicap players struggle to break 100 on a regular basis!


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2014)

Jason Daisycutter said:



			I haven't had a handicap since 1993, but back then the were "non counters" competitions where due to course conditions your handicap could not go up, but you could get cut. The match and handicap committee could cut you at any time though (think there was a handicap restriction to this though).
		
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You are very much out of date then! Much 'power' has been removed from M&H Committees with the idea being to be more consistent, by letting the system manage as much as practical. Annual Reviews are far less subjective - a Report is produced of candidates. There's no automatic cuts for winning knockout comps. Much more consistent imo.

Reduction Only (R/O) comps are where CSS > +3. Based on Scores, so related to conditions (like weather). 

'Rule 19' GPA got less and less in favour - and has become Clause 23 and nominally replaced (except in Scotland) by the ESR process, where 2 exceptional scores trigger a suggestion of a further cut - this standardising the process.

Non playing cuts to Cat 1 golfers have to be approved by Area Authority.



FairwayDodger said:



			Why would that make a difference?
		
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Possibly for the same reason Congu has a Max of 28 for Men, but 36 for Ladies.


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## FairwayDodger (Mar 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			Possibly for the same reason Congu has a Max of 28 for Men, but 36 for Ladies.
		
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Have often wondered about that. Why is it?


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## rosecott (Mar 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			I don't believe it's expressly forbidden.

But the wording in the A/R Guidance is along the lines of 'Decisions made on the basis of a 'knee-jerk' reaction to a single good score or performance are seldom justifiable'. That and the 'Exceptional Circumstances' and 'Compelling evidence' for GPAs certainly make it highly questionable!
		
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I refer you to the CONGU manual:

17.3 on page 30
17.1 Q&A on "Reduction Only Competitions" on page 31
17.3/1 on page 32


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## didsbury_duffer (Mar 9, 2014)

Right, these are the facts. "It is a fundamental tenet of the UHS that handicaps adjustments can only be applied in qualifying competitions, when handicaps are adjusted upwards and downwards as appropriate in relation to the CSS.  To create a situation where handicaps can only be reduced would distort the balance on which the system is based.  To reduce the handicaps of those players scoring below the SSS in a non-qualifying competition is considered to be an unacceptable abuse of the system. A number of dispensations for winter play have been granted by Congu to encourage this, including preferred lies and use of artificial mats."

So, in summing up, preferred lies and mats are OK for winter qualifying comps, so as long as the length of the course is not increased or decreased by more than 100 yards, then the comp can be a qualifier. However, handicaps must be both increased and decreased based upon the results.


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## Golfmmad (Mar 9, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			because 28 handicaps will always struggle at medal rounds but he has probably shown enough promise to one day soon shoot a very good stableford score.
		
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I'm sorry, but that doesn't get you a cut to 23.

And yes, I've seen 15 handicappers not break 100 - occasionally.


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## Tashyboy (Mar 9, 2014)

Twin Lakes said:



			^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This, unless it's a lady,
		
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I,m a lady.


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## markgs (Mar 9, 2014)

be happy you have been cut most people would or give the game up


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## the smiling assassin (Mar 9, 2014)

CMAC said:



			in mens comps the max h/cap to win should be 18 IMO. I don't mind the other h/caps (we all started high) but they should be for h/cap only with their own sweep if they so desire. You can still 'win' the comp but only once 18 strokes are taken off.

Just my (probably unpopular) opinion, apologies for going slightly off topic
		
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I suspect there is more chance of the 28 limit increasing than decreasing as Golf is trying to be seen in as inclusive a light as possible.

While in practice I think the 18 limit for prizes is appropriate, it would be a little discriminatory to apply it without an across the board reduction of the handicap limit to 18.


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## Jason Daisycutter (Mar 9, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			You are very much out of date then! Much 'power' has been removed from M&H Committees with the idea being to be more consistent, by letting the system manage as much as practical. Annual Reviews are far less subjective - a Report is produced of candidates. There's no automatic cuts for winning knockout comps. Much more consistent imo.

Reduction Only (R/O) comps are where CSS > +3. Based on Scores, so related to conditions (like weather). 

'Rule 19' GPA got less and less in favour - and has become Clause 23 and nominally replaced (*except in Scotland*) by the ESR process, where 2 exceptional scores trigger a suggestion of a further cut - this standardising the process.

Non playing cuts to Cat 1 golfers have to be approved by Area Authority.



Possibly for the same reason Congu has a Max of 28 for Men, but 36 for Ladies.
		
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So, clause 19 still applies in Scotland?


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## rosecott (Mar 9, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			because 28 handicaps will always struggle at medal rounds but he has probably shown enough promise to one day soon shoot a very good stableford score.
		
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*BUT* assessment of any necessary handicap adjustment is based on the medal score adjusted to the stableford equivalent.


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## davidy233 (Mar 9, 2014)

Golfmmad said:



			This is just how I see it.

How can anyone who has never shot below 100 be cut to 23?
		
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Think you lose the moral high ground if you moan about a cut on a public forum - and admit it's because you want to win - work harder it'll come


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## markgs (Mar 9, 2014)

davidy233 said:



			Think you lose the moral high ground if you moan about a cut on a public forum - and admit it's because you want to win - work harder it'll come
		
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The word is bandit


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## davidy233 (Mar 9, 2014)

markgs said:



			The word is bandit
		
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Not yet


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## rosecott (Mar 9, 2014)

Jason Daisycutter said:



			So, clause 19 still applies in Scotland?
		
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Yes, but it has changed its name to clause 23 to avoid detection.


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## Jason Daisycutter (Mar 9, 2014)

rosecott said:



			Yes, but it has changed its name to clause 23 to avoid detection.
		
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Ahh


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## fundy (Mar 9, 2014)

markgs said:



			The word is bandit
		
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how many points did you get last comp, 45 was it??? and people werent throwing that at you so why are you doing so to a 26 handicapper who hasnt broken a 100?


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## Golfmmad (Mar 9, 2014)

davidy233 said:



			Think you lose the moral high ground if you moan about a cut on a public forum - and admit it's because you want to win - work harder it'll come
		
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Err, I think you might want to read the thread again.


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

Christ  all I wanted to know was is it fair and correct and im getting crucified and called a bandit  

All I want is a net 71,,,,,,,,, would be nice to win somthing on the way  ,,,,,

Only been playing 12 mts for gods sake


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## markgs (Mar 9, 2014)

fundy said:



			how many points did you get last comp, 45 was it??? and people werent throwing that at you so why are you doing so to a 26 handicapper who hasnt broken a 100?
		
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because i was happy to get a cut not moaning about it thats the difference and for the record i scored 41 saturday and 38 today


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2014)

rosecott said:



			Yes, but it has changed its name to clause 23 to avoid detection.
		
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:clap:

And there's a sub-clause for England, Wales and Ireland that isn't in the one for Scotland. C. Exceptional Score Reduction.


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## davidy233 (Mar 9, 2014)

Golfmmad said:



			Err, I think you might want to read the thread again.
		
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Kind of ok with what I've posted - I'm talking moral high ground not laws - I can understand that England doesn't allow you to be cut on one game anymore - but mumping about a cut - never seen that from a high handicapper before


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2014)

mike912 said:



			Christ  all I wanted to know was is it fair and correct and im getting crucified and called a bandit  

All I want is a net 71,,,,,,,,, would be nice to win somthing on the way  ,,,,,

Only been playing 12 mts for gods sake
		
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Welcome to the forum btw!:rofl:

Touchy topic to start with!

And, probably unknowingly, opened a few cans of worms too!


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## davidy233 (Mar 9, 2014)

mike912 said:



			Christ  all I wanted to know was is it fair and correct and im getting crucified and called a bandit  

All I want is a net 71,,,,,,,,, would be nice to win somthing on the way  ,,,,,

Only been playing 12 mts for gods sake
		
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If you want it you'll get it - good luck


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## rosecott (Mar 9, 2014)

markgs said:



			18 should be max
		
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I'm assuming that you never, ever, had a handicap higher than 18 and, that if you did, you insisted on writing handicap 18 on your scorecard until you achieved that level.


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## fundy (Mar 9, 2014)

markgs said:



			because i was happy to get a cut not moaning about it thats the difference and for the record i scored 41 saturday and 38 today
		
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as i said at the time great scoring, but if they were my recent scores i certainly wouldnt be throwing around the term bandit at others, especially not to a guy whos not broken a 100 yet


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## markgs (Mar 9, 2014)

fundy said:



			as i said at the time great scoring, but if they were my recent scores i certainly wouldnt be throwing around the term bandit at others, especially not to a guy whos not broken a 100 yet
		
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all i am saying is he should be over them moon that he has been cut as thats the point to play and get better. Bandit is use for people who want to keep handicap high and win things with out a cut


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## rosecott (Mar 9, 2014)

davidy233 said:



			Kind of ok with what I've posted - I'm talking moral high ground not laws - I can understand that England doesn't allow you to be cut on one game anymore - but mumping about a cut - never seen that from a high handicapper before
		
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I think you have mistaken his reason for posting. He wanted to know the reason for the 3-shot reduction. That seems to me to be quite reasonable as the facts, as reported, do not justify such a reduction. I'm sure he will be very happy if such a reduction is justified and "legal".


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2014)

davidy233 said:



			Kind of ok with what I've posted - I'm talking moral high ground not laws - I can understand that *England doesn't allow you to be cut on one game anymore* - but mumping about a cut - never seen that from a high handicapper before
		
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Are you implying Scotland does?

I'm pretty sure you won't find many Scottish folk being cut on a single game either - except in exceptional circumstances. The same statement applies to all unions about knee-jerk reaction to single good score/perfomance seldom being justified!


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## davidy233 (Mar 9, 2014)

rosecott said:



			I think you have mistaken his reason for posting. He wanted to know the reason for the 3-shot reduction. That seems to me to be quite reasonable as the facts, as reported, do not justify such a reduction. I'm sure he will be very happy if such a reduction is justified and "legal".
		
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Believe he's also said 'yes I want to win' and 'Christ I just want to shoot a net 71' - that's my problem with this - I'm not a good golfer but I'd never moan about my handicap stopping me achieving my goals of winning - I totally understand that the English golf union give you a free good round these days and I've been where he is now


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## mike912 (Mar 9, 2014)

Im looking forward to being cut more  im aiming for 18 this season tbh


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## davidy233 (Mar 9, 2014)

And as I said earlier work harder and it will come - I've no problem with genuine hackers getting all there shots - I'm one


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## rosecott (Mar 9, 2014)

davidy233 said:



			Believe he's also said 'yes I want to win' and 'Christ I just want to shoot a net 71'
		
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And don't we all want that - and to be treated fairly and under rules that apply to all.


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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2014)

davidy233 said:



			...I totally understand that the English golf union give you a free good round these days...
		
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What is this drivel? Free? Nope! They just don't go 'Bandit! Cut him even more!' mad!


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## Golfmmad (Mar 9, 2014)

davidy233 said:



			Kind of ok with what I've posted - I'm talking moral high ground not laws - I can understand that England doesn't allow you to be cut on one game anymore - but mumping about a cut - never seen that from a high handicapper 

before
		
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It seemed that you were replying to me and not the OP about his handicap cut.

Can you not, (or anybody else for that matter) see it from OP point of view. And this is no disrespect to mike912, he does not yet have the ability to play to 23, having only just started playing the game.

I know what it's like to not break 100 - it took me a long time. From what mike912 has stated about his scores - all over 100 - I'm surprised that he was playing off 26, and until he breaks 100 should be off 28 IMHO.


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## rosecott (Mar 9, 2014)

davidy233 said:



			- I totally understand that the English golf union give you a free good round these days and I've been where he is now
		
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What does that mean?


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## fundy (Mar 9, 2014)

markgs said:



			all i am saying is he should be over them moon that he has been cut as thats the point to play and get better. Bandit is use for people who want to keep handicap high and win things with out a cut
		
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Thats the thing, I dont think a guy who has just been playing for a year would have getting his handicap as low as possible as his main aim, it certainly wasnt mine (or most peoples) when they started. I dont see anything wrong with having taken up a new sport wanting to win a few comps and feeling that Im being given a fair chance to do so. Instead an over eager handicap secretary is trying hard to make sure he doesnt win anything (by what appears an outdated general play cut) and then he gets called a bandit on here when asking if the cut was fair. Be a bit more inclusive, just because you are desperate to get your handicap down doesnt mean thats the main priority for a new starter to the game, cut a bit of slack


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## davidy233 (Mar 9, 2014)

Golfmmad said:



			It seemed that you were replying to me and not the OP about his handicap cut.

Can you not, (or anybody else for that matter) see it from OP point of view. And this is no disrespect to mike912, he does not yet have the ability to play to 23, having only just started playing the game.

I know what it's like to not break 100 - it took me a long time. From what mike912 has stated about his scores - all over 100 - I'm surprised that he was playing off 26, and until he breaks 100 should be off 28 IMHO.
		
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I can see it exactly from his point of view - I've been there as you have - my first handicap was 23 and I bitched to myself about it - my cards probably said 28+ I didn't do it in public though - and a year later I won a medal - because I worked hard at it - he can do that too if he sticks in and works 

Mike says he's aiming for 18 - hope he gets there


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## evahakool (Mar 9, 2014)

rosecott said:



			Because some courses - mine for one - play qualifiers throughout the year, and so should many who don't. I know of quite a number of clubs where the course is on normal greens and tees and playing to the measured length but their committee do not follow CONGU guidelines which expect clubs to play qualifiers under those conditions.
		
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My club play normal greens and tees in winter and are non qualifiers , if they played by the congu guidelines I would be of 15 now instead of 17:angry:


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## evahakool (Mar 9, 2014)

Golfmmad said:



			I'm sorry, but that doesn't get you a cut to 23.

And yes, I've seen 15 handicappers not break 100 - occasionally.
		
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## Foxholer (Mar 9, 2014)

Have you asked them why? Pick and place in the rough?

Congu have 'encouraged' clubs to play qualifying comps wherever possible throughout the Winter for quite a while - more than 10years.


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## evahakool (Mar 9, 2014)

mike912 said:



			Christ  all I wanted to know was is it fair and correct and im getting crucified and called a bandit  

All I want is a net 71,,,,,,,,, would be nice to win somthing on the way  ,,,,,

Only been playing 12 mts for gods sake
		
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Mike welcome

Can't see it's fair you have got cut so much if you've not broken 100,good luck

Oh and don't let the Ba          no better not say it.


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## Golfmmad (Mar 9, 2014)

davidy233 said:



			I can see it exactly from his point of view - I've been there as you have - my first handicap was 23 and I bitched to myself about it - my cards probably said 28+ I didn't do it in public though - and a year later I won a medal - because I worked hard at it - he can do that too if he sticks in and works 

Mike says he's aiming for 18 - hope he gets there
		
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Me too! :thup:


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## Golfmmad (Mar 9, 2014)

evahakool said:





Click to expand...


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## Slab (Mar 10, 2014)

markgs said:



			I agree, i played in a comp today with a 28 handicapper, i was on 22 points front 9 played really well, looked at the guy i was scorings card who hacked his way around 23 point. *My heart sunk i then tried my best on back 9 just could not contend with all the shoots he had*. Even when he was 3 off the tee still getting 8 for 1 point of par 5.... *18 should be max*

Click to expand...

Do you want 18 to be the max so that you can win more easily/often?

Doesn't that defeat the point about playing to get your handicap cut! 

And btw a _hacker _three off the tee now has to play one of the toughest holes on the course tee to pin to scratch level golf in order to get that one point in your example, how often will that actually happen?


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## Foxholer (Mar 10, 2014)

Slab said:



			Do you want 18 to be the max so that you can win more easily/often?

Doesn't that defeat the point about playing to get your handicap cut!
		
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Ah yes. The hypocrisy/snobbery of the improved/improving Golfer! It's actually what the 'old style' H/Sec was able to see and preempt. I believe that was the argument that Scottish clubs put forward for not using ESR. 

Mark would seem to be the classic candidate for a 'cut on observation' - probably to 12 or 13. 

In a field of 70+, there is always likely to be 1 or 2 players (normally in the 10-15 range) who, for one reason or another, have improved sufficiently to beat their handicap by 3-4 or more shots, so the very low-cappers, who have a very good round and score a couple under theirs still 'miss out' on the nett prize - and feel aggrieved. Another reason to have nett comps in Divisions.

The old adage 'the better I get, the harder the game becomes' is also demonstrated with handicaps!



Slab said:



			And btw a _hacker _three off the tee now has to play one of the toughest holes on the course tee to pin to scratch level golf in order to get that one point in your example, how often will that actually happen?
		
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And while not quite accurate - 6 shots will do, so not quite scratch - I agree with the sentiment. Instead of pouring scorn on the 8 for 1, he should have been saying 'bloody well played - with the second ball!'!


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## Slab (Mar 10, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			....................And while not quite accurate - 6 shots will do, so not quite scratch - I agree with the sentiment. Instead of pouring scorn on the 8 for 1, he should have been saying 'bloody well played - with the second ball!'!
		
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Oops yeah I forgot to carry the 1  
but glad you saw where I was coming from, its bloomin difficult at the best of times without hitting a third off the tee, which I think is the biggest killer to getting points on any hole. We (royal) can chunk it forward a 100 yards each shot and still have a putt for a point but if hitting three from the tee the higher handicapper is pretty much gonna blob it more often than score


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## HawkeyeMS (Mar 10, 2014)

Slab said:



			Oops yeah I forgot to carry the 1  
but glad you saw where I was coming from, its bloomin difficult at the best of times without hitting a third off the tee, which I think is the biggest killer to getting points on any hole. We (royal) can chunk it forward a 100 yards each shot and still have a putt for a point but if hitting three from the tee the higher handicapper is pretty much gonna blob it more often than score
		
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To be fair, with 3 off the tee, a low handicapper is pretty much up against it as well.


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## dewsweeper (Mar 10, 2014)

mike912 said:



			Even club pro said they couldnt dock me

I give in....... thinking of changing clubs
		
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For goodness sake!
Just try a different sport!!!!!!


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## Slab (Mar 10, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			To be fair, with 3 off the tee, a low handicapper is pretty much up against it as well.
		
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Very true
_Wonder if there are any amateur stats that look at points scored under diff circumstances? _

Edit: although the lower the h/cap the fewer times you're hitting three of the tee


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## HawkeyeMS (Mar 10, 2014)

Slab said:



			Very true
_Wonder if there are any amateur stats that look at points scored under diff circumstances? _

Edit: although the lower the h/cap the fewer times you're hitting three of the tee 

Click to expand...

You didn't see me yesterday :rofl:


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## dewsweeper (Mar 10, 2014)

dewsweeper said:



			For goodness sake!
Just try a different sport!!!!!!
		
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That reply of mine comes over as a little harsh,but let me explain.
I am playing off 17 having gone up from 10 over 4 seasons,mainly due to health problems and being a bit long in then tooth.
Going up -1 every comp can be soul destroying,almost like a Chinese water torture but never enough to tke away all the other pleasures of our game.
Change your mindset to improving and enjoying the game,that is the greatest pleasure  in golf .
I have not been competitive on a  Saturday for many seasons but still get a thrill on teeing up on the 1st
Enjoy where you are and be determined to improve.
Success is in your hands not the H/capSec.
Dewsweeper


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## garyinderry (Mar 10, 2014)

I also think people should start at an 18 handicap and go up when necessary.   I believe that 28 handicaps to start out become a self fulfilling prophecy.  They tend to play a little looser than they would if they didn't have as many shots. 

they start chasing big points late in the round thinking a birdie will get me 5 points on this.  big carve 3 wood for a second shot = blob!


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## Slab (Mar 10, 2014)

garyinderry said:



			I also think people should start at an 18 handicap and go up when necessary.   I believe that 28 handicaps to start out become a self fulfilling prophecy.  They tend to play a little looser than they would if they didn't have as many shots. 

they start chasing big points late in the round thinking a birdie will get me 5 points on this.  big carve 3 wood for a second shot = blob!
		
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Interesting but not sure it would work out too well. And since the only point of a handicap is for competition play it would be kinda like saying _'you're a newbie golfer and not that good so we're not going to let you compete on a full handicap for several seasons until you really prove time & time again just how bad you are'_

Some will come down to 18 or better in the following years but others will still need to go up and it just might put a few off taking up the game


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## BTatHome (Mar 10, 2014)

Mike, whilst your aim of scoring 71 is admirable you may find that your more successful in Stableford events until your skills get rid of those shots that caused such high scores on those few holes. As pointed out you did incredibly well for the other holes in that round and would have probably produced a very good Stableford score without coming close to breaking 100

Mark, the idea of max 18 would scare many many people away from comps (and possibly even club golf all together). Plus surely 18 still gives you a shot on all the par 3's and that sounds way too easy


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## garyinderry (Mar 10, 2014)

I also think that players starting out pay too much attention to their gross score.  Golf is a very hard game, at the start every one has shockers and regularly run up big numbers.  

As BT says you may well of had a decent stableford score. Pay attention to this score rather than the gross. If you start chasing a score after running up a few 7s and a 10 then you only get worse. Concentrate on building a stableford score, aim for at least 1 point on every hole . Even if this means laying up with your 3rd shot. on the green in 4 and 2 putts will be more use than trying for a GIR and knocking it OOB or into the trees. 

As you improve, the gross score takes care of itself!


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## mikeb4 (Mar 10, 2014)

i would be happy to get cut, is that not why we play to reduce our handicap ? its not all about winning and taking home the prize money imo, ps good luck continuing to lower it


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## HawkeyeMS (Mar 10, 2014)

It sounds to me like your handicap secretary is taking handicapping into his own hands. The 2 shot cut after a 9 hole non-qualifier seems harsh but could (just about) be explained as an incorrect initial allocation, but a further 3 shot cut after this NQ just seems like a man on a mission to prevent anyone he sees with potential from cleaning up when the season starts.


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## rosecott (Mar 10, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			It sounds to me like your handicap secretary is taking handicapping into his own hands. The 2 shot cut after a 9 hole non-qualifier seems harsh but could (just about) be explained as an incorrect initial allocation, but a further 3 shot cut after this NQ just seems like a man on a mission to prevent anyone he sees with potential from cleaning up when the season starts.
		
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The OP gave me permission to access his playing record.

Initial allocation revision doesn't come into it - He has been playing regularly in competitions since at least early 2012.

His 2-stroke reduction for 23 points in a 9-hole qualifier seems spot on.

I can see nothing whatsoever in his playing record which could remotely come near justifying a 3-stroke reduction, either by Annual Review or General Play.

I have advised him to have a quiet word with his Handicap Secretary for an explanation.


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## HawkeyeMS (Mar 10, 2014)

rosecott said:



			The OP gave me permission to access his playing record.

Initial allocation revision doesn't come into it - He has been playing regularly in competitions since at least early 2012.

His 2-stroke reduction for 23 points in a 9-hole qualifier seems spot on.

I can see nothing whatsoever in his playing record which could remotely come near justifying a 3-stroke reduction, either by Annual Review or General Play.

I have advised him to have a quiet word with his Handicap Secretary for an explanation.
		
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Ah, I thought the 9 holer was a NQ, I must have misread it. Apart from that, I stand by my comment about his handicap secretary


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## Jack_bfc (Mar 10, 2014)

Slab said:



			Interesting but not sure it would work out too well. And since the only point of a handicap is for competition play it would be kinda like saying _'you're a newbie golfer and not that good so we're not going to let you compete on a full handicap for several seasons until you really prove time & time again just how bad you are'_

Some will come down to 18 or better in the following years but others will still need to go up and it just might put a few off taking up the game 

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Im about to put 3 cards in to gain a HC and would be quite happy if my HC form the cards came out above 18, to sart at 18, and let it rise as appropriate.

One of my friends who has joined the same club has been given HC of 25  and I know he will smash it in the first few comps, probably get his HC slashed and called a bandit and upset the members all in one hit! He just had 3 bad rounds in poor conditions which lead to the 25...


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## rosecott (Mar 10, 2014)

Jack_bfc said:



			Im about to put 3 cards in to gain a HC and would be quite happy if my HC form the cards came out above 18, to sart at 18, and let it rise as appropriate.

One of my friends who has joined the same club has been given HC of 25  and I know he will smash it in the first few comps, probably get his HC slashed and called a bandit and upset the members all in one hit! He just had 3 bad rounds in poor conditions which lead to the 25...
		
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Maybe the club could put green "L" plates on him, allow him to play in competitions but he doesn't pay a comp fee and can't win prize money.


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## rosecott (Mar 10, 2014)

Jack_bfc said:



			Im about to put 3 cards in to gain a HC and would be quite happy if my HC form the cards came out above 18, to sart at 18, and let it rise as appropriate.

One of my friends who has joined the same club has been given HC of 25  and I know he will smash it in the first few comps, probably get his HC slashed and called a bandit and upset the members all in one hit! He just had 3 bad rounds in poor conditions which lead to the 25...
		
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It has stuck in my mind that you posted recently about having an "EGU handicap" that was administered by your pro and I think it emerged that he was running CONGU handicaps legitimately. If that is the case, then your handicap from there should either be transferred (if 6 months or less between clubs) or taken into account (if more than 6 months).


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## TopOfTheFlop (Mar 10, 2014)

Is it normal to get such a high handicap when you first join a club? 
I can regularly shoot in the middle-high 80's and when I submitted my cards for my handicap at my new club only a few months ago I got given a handicap of 26. Albeit I was nervous and I didn't play particularly well but now I've got a few meets and comps coming up I have this feeling at the front of my mind that my handicap is not true to me as a golfer. My swing, ball striking and putting doesn't look like a guy who has a handicap of 26. It makes me feel more conscious the more I play and almost makes me not want to go to meets or comps until it comes down to the teens where I know it can be....
Do i just submit the cards at the club as I play and slowly but surely knock the numbers off??


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## Jack_bfc (Mar 10, 2014)

rosecott said:



			It has stuck in my mind that you posted recently about having an "EGU handicap" that was administered by your pro and I think it emerged that he was running CONGU handicaps legitimately. If that is the case, then your handicap from there should either be transferred (if 6 months or less between clubs) or taken into account (if more than 6 months).
		
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I will check when I get the interveiw.

My HC there was 22.8  , I would still take 18 and then could relax my way into the first few comps knowing my HC will go up till I improve and it evens out or gets to 18 as is my plan this year,

I know if I have a good day I can shoot mid 80's (well twice last year). I would be embarressed to do that in the first few months at a new club..


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## edgey (Mar 10, 2014)

rosecott said:



			The OP gave me permission to access his playing record.

Initial allocation revision doesn't come into it - He has been playing regularly in competitions since at least early 2012.

His 2-stroke reduction for 23 points in a 9-hole qualifier seems spot on.

I can see nothing whatsoever in his playing record which could remotely come near justifying a 3-stroke reduction, either by Annual Review or General Play.

I have advised him to have a quiet word with his Handicap Secretary for an explanation.
		
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It has been my sad experience that the position of handicap secretary too often attracts to it the very people who should never be allowed to fill it, i.e. narcissistic meglomaniacs with delusions of omnipotence.These are the people who liveout the lack of any power they have in their own lives by imposing decisions that are often unsupported by any rules and for no other reason than they can. Decisions like this are often made based on a "nudge or a wink" or hypothesis, supposition or simple bitterness.

After you  have had a quiet word with the handicap secretary I would insist on the evidence he used to justify this cut. If that evidence is insufficiently robust (and in my experience it nearly always is) I would inform him you are planning to speak to the EGU directly to raise your concerns and a possible complaint.


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## rosecott (Mar 10, 2014)

TopOfTheFlop said:



			Is it normal to get such a high handicap when you first join a club? 
I can regularly shoot in the middle-high 80's and when I submitted my cards for my handicap at my new club only a few months ago I got given a handicap of 26. Albeit I was nervous and I didn't play particularly well but now I've got a few meets and comps coming up I have this feeling at the front of my mind that my handicap is not true to me as a golfer. My swing, ball striking and putting doesn't look like a guy who has a handicap of 26. It makes me feel more conscious the more I play and almost makes me not want to go to meets or comps until it comes down to the teens where I know it can be....
Do i just submit the cards at the club as I play and slowly but surely knock the numbers off??
		
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There are two things you can do if you are sure that you would do embarrassingly well playing off 26. There is nothing to stop you entering a competition and putting a handicap lower than 26 on the scorecard - that would make it more difficult for you to win. You could also set out to submit as many Supplementaries as are allowed - 10 per year, normally no more than one per week.


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 10, 2014)

edgey said:



			It has been my sad experience that the position of handicap secretary too often attracts to it the very people who should never be allowed to fill it, i.e. narcissistic meglomaniacs with delusions of omnipotence.These are the people who liveout the lack of any power they have in their own lives by imposing decisions that are often unsupported by any rules and for no other reason than they can. Decisions like this are often made based on a "nudge or a wink" or hypothesis, supposition or simple bitterness.

After you  have had a quiet word with the handicap secretary I would insist on the evidence he used to justify this cut. If that evidence is insufficiently robust (and in my experience it nearly always is) I would inform him you are planning to speak to the EGU directly to raise your concerns and a possible complaint.
		
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What a load of codswallop!
So why don't you stand for committee and sort it out.

It is my sad experience with golf club members that 'empty vessels make the most noise.'
As I said earlier, golfers who complain about handicap cuts set my nose twitching.


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## edgey (Mar 10, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What a load of codswallop!
So why don't you stand for committee and sort it out.

It is my sad experience with golf club members that 'empty vessels make the most noise.'
As I said earlier, golfers who complain about handicap cuts set my nose twitching.
		
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Codswallop lol I havent heard that since primary school
Because I am not retired, a member of the dodgy handshake brigade and do not fit the job spec as described in my post
No idea what your talking about because I did go the EGU and did overturn an unjust handicap cut
Sorry you dont like golfers who complain of handicap cuts, because mine has been cut (based on competition play). I wont accept being "stitched up" so keep your nose twitching because frankly my dear, I dont give a damn!


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## Doon frae Troon (Mar 10, 2014)

edgey said:



			Codswallop lol I havent heard that since primary school
Because I am not retired, a member of the dodgy handshake brigade and do not fit the job spec as described in my post
No idea what your talking about because I did go the EGU and did overturn an unjust handicap cut
Sorry you dont like golfers who complain of handicap cuts, because mine has been cut (based on competition play). I wont accept being "stitched up" so keep your nose twitching because frankly my dear, I dont give a damn!
		
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Goodness it's dodgy handshake now. I did not think they went in for that sort of thing in Worcs.

Perhaps you can share with us your reasons for protecting your handicap so strongly?


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## Foxholer (Mar 10, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So why don't you stand for committee and sort it out.
		
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Why should they need to!

Not being of a mind, or in a position, or prepared to do the job does not mean that you are prepared to accept the incompetence of those that are!

But there are certainly cases at either end of the scale, and I'd normally be inclined to favour the H/Sec. But this case seems peculiar.

Btw. Codswallop is a great word! Seem to remember using it quite recently!


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## edgey (Mar 10, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Goodness it's dodgy handshake now. I did not think they went in for that sort of thing in Worcs.

Perhaps you can share with us your reasons for protecting your handicap so strongly?
		
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You would be surprised what we go in for around here...

Perhaps you can share how you have deduced I am protecting my handicap?


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## mike912 (Mar 10, 2014)

dewsweeper said:



			For goodness sake!
Just try a different sport!!!!!!
		
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Why should I    only asked a question for gods sake


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## mike912 (Mar 10, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What a load of codswallop!
So why don't you stand for committee and sort it out.

It is my sad experience with golf club members that 'empty vessels make the most noise.'
As I said earlier, golfers who complain about handicap cuts set my nose twitching.
		
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I wasnt complaining I was asking was it fair  I still think its a little harsh


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