# Poll: Britain and the EU



## SocketRocket (May 26, 2015)

I'm interested in peoples views on our future relationship with the EU.

Please can you vote your preference.

Thanks.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2015)

No poll ?


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## SocketRocket (May 26, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			No poll ?
		
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Give us a minute


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## Liverpoolphil (May 26, 2015)

I don't wish to leave the EU but would like to see some negotiations in regards immigration and money we pay out to bail out other countries - no idea were that fits in with the options you have posted


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## SocketRocket (May 26, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don't wish to leave the EU but would like to see some negotiations in regards immigration and money we pay out to bail out other countries - no idea were that fits in with the options you have posted
		
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I guess it would fall into the second category.


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## Hobbit (May 26, 2015)

Don't want any sort of political union. As a trade organisation yes, as it currently stands, a big NO!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 26, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I don't wish to leave the EU but would like to see some negotiations in regards immigration and money we pay out to bail out other countries - no idea were that fits in with the options you have posted
		
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Kind of where I am. Voted to stay in as things are but can see the need for some change to move to assuage concerns of many who might otherwise want out. But I am concerned about the debate that is to be had. I heard one eurosceptic OUT campaigner respond to LSE analysis of cost of leaving with a dismissive 'what do they know - they are only guessing'


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## chrisd (May 27, 2015)

I was probably amongst the few on here who voted in the original referendum, and I voted in favour. I thought it was a decision on a close trading agreement, a "common market" and not for political union and our law making etc to be forced on us by unelected dictators

For me, the biggest problem is that we slavishly follow the edicts from Europe where France and others just ignore what they don't like. We need to sort out the mess, corruption and question of sovereignty and hopefully stay in, if not, then I'd leave


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## Hacker Khan (May 27, 2015)

Or to make it easier for you, vote 1 if you are a lib dem, 2 if you are tory,  3 if you are labour and 4 if you are a UKIP voter.


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## PhilTheFragger (May 27, 2015)

I am very happy to remain a member of a trading community and this was what was voted for in 1975. 
The gradual creep towards a Federal Europe has gained momentum over the years and is now just a massive money pit
I'm glad we are not in the Eurozone and getting out of the ERM (exchange rate mechanism.....anyone under 30 google it) was the best thing we ever did.

It's gotten (see what I did there?) too big, certain countries have come in that never should, it's a mess, unfortunately it's such a gravy train for some I don't see it being radically reformed any time soon.

Best we can do is renegotiate our part in it and then put that to the public in the referendum , which can't be a yes/no there have to be options as per this poll


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			I am very happy to remain a member of a trading community and this was what was voted for in 1975. 
The gradual creep towards a Federal Europe has gained momentum over the years and is now just a massive money pit
I'm glad we are not in the Eurozone and getting out of the ERM (exchange rate mechanism.....anyone under 30 google it) was the best thing we ever did.

*It's gotten* (see what I did there?) too big, certain countries have come in that never should, it's a mess, unfortunately it's such a gravy train for some I don't see it being radically reformed any time soon.

Best we can do is renegotiate our part in it and then put that to the public in the referendum , which can't be a yes/no there have to be options as per this poll
		
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*Yes* stand in the corner and behave.

I fear the electorate will be as some complained about the Scottish electorate in the GE.  

No matter what was said to them - they had decided to vote SNP and whatever logical and reasoned arguments that might have shown up the irrationality, fallacy or wrong-headedness of SNP policy - the voters just weren't listening and we saw what happened.  

Likewise I fear the same for many of those inclined to vote OUT - they have decided to vote that way and that is that.  Cameron will get many important changes - but not treaty change on severely limiting immigration.  And on that basis alone - nothing ese - many will vote OUT - and the vote will be OUT - disastrously IMO for the UK economy and possibly also for the Union.


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## jp5 (May 27, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*Yes* stand in the corner and behave.

I fear the electorate will be as some complained about the Scottish electorate in the GE.  

No matter what was said to them - they had decided to vote SNP and whatever logical and reasoned arguments that might have shown up the irrationality, fallacy or wrong-headedness of SNP policy - the voters just weren't listening and we saw what happened.  

Likewise I fear the same for many of those inclined to vote OUT - they have decided to vote that way and that is that.  Cameron will get many important changes - but not treaty change on severely limiting immigration.  And on that basis alone - nothing ese - many will vote OUT - and the vote will be OUT - disastrously IMO for the UK economy and possibly also for the Union.
		
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I think the vote will be quite comfortably to stay in.


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## SocketRocket (May 27, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*Yes* stand in the corner and behave.

I fear the electorate will be as some complained about the Scottish electorate in the GE.  

No matter what was said to them - they had decided to vote SNP and whatever logical and reasoned arguments that might have shown up the irrationality, fallacy or wrong-headedness of SNP policy - the voters just weren't listening and we saw what happened.  

Likewise I fear the same for many of those inclined to vote OUT - they have decided to vote that way and that is that.  Cameron will get many important changes - but not treaty change on severely limiting immigration.  And on that basis alone - nothing ese - many will vote OUT - and the vote will be OUT - disastrously IMO for the UK economy and possibly also for the Union.
		
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Our little poll is not  supporting that theory so far.


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## Jimaroid (May 27, 2015)

Sorry, I can't hold it in any longer. Britain isn't in the European Union, the United Kingdom is.

Aaaaaand relax...


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## jp5 (May 27, 2015)

Jimaroid said:



			Sorry, I can't hold it in any longer. Britain isn't in the European Union, the United Kingdom is.

Aaaaaand relax... 

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Great Britain isn't in the EU, 'Britain' may be considered so...

"The term Britain is widely used as a common name for the sovereign state of the United Kingdom, or UK for short."


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## jp5 (May 27, 2015)

Probably not helped by the journals favouring the term 'Brexit' (I guess UKexit would be even naffer, if possible).


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## Hacker Khan (May 27, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*Yes* stand in the corner and behave.

I fear the electorate will be as some complained about the Scottish electorate in the GE.  

No matter what was said to them - they had decided to vote SNP and whatever logical and reasoned arguments that might have shown up the irrationality, fallacy or wrong-headedness of SNP policy - the voters just weren't listening and we saw what happened.  

Likewise I fear the same for many of those inclined to vote OUT - they have decided to vote that way and that is that.  Cameron will get many important changes - but not treaty change on severely limiting immigration.  And on that basis alone - nothing ese - many will vote OUT - and the vote will be OUT - disastrously IMO for the UK economy and possibly also for the Union.
		
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I suspect that the vote will be to stay in.  Basically Cameron is doing this vote as a sop to the more right wing members of the Tory party who looked like would defect to UKIP when UKIP looked like a credible threat.  But now they are riven with infighting and only ended up with one MP, plus he's got a much bigger majority than expected so he doesn't need to worry about them too much now.

I suspect he knows that economically we are best in, and elections are just about always won on the economy.  Also big business will be campaigning heavily to stay in, plus Labour and the Lib Dems are broadly pro-Europe.  Yes you'll get the usual suspects in the media still blaming the EU for everything, but I suspect when most people are in front of the poling card, much like they did at the last election, they will think with their wallets and vote to stay in.


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## Jimaroid (May 27, 2015)

Yeah, I'm being purposefully pedantic. I think the distinction is going to become more important in the next couple of years because we're quite likely going to get into a situation of Scotland in but rest of UK out of Europe. SCIBROUKOOE?

It's a blooming mess.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 27, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*Yes* stand in the corner and behave.

I fear the electorate will be as some complained about the Scottish electorate in the GE.  

No matter what was said to them - they had decided to vote SNP and whatever logical and reasoned arguments that might have shown up the irrationality, fallacy or wrong-headedness of SNP policy - the voters just weren't listening and we saw what happened.  

Likewise I fear the same for many of those inclined to vote OUT - they have decided to vote that way and that is that.  Cameron will get many important changes - but not treaty change on severely limiting immigration.  And on that basis alone - nothing ese - many will vote OUT - and the vote will be OUT - disastrously IMO for the UK economy and possibly also for the Union.
		
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I wondered how long it would be before Scotland and SNP was brought into it -


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 27, 2015)

I think it will comfortably be a vote to stay in the EU. The current demand to leave is the epitome of the vocal minority!


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## Adi2Dassler (May 27, 2015)

I'm considering voting to leave The EU to create issues between Scotland and rUK thus speeding up the break up of The UK.


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## FairwayDodger (May 27, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			I'm considering voting to leave The EU to create issues between Scotland and rUK thus speeding up the break up of The UK.
		
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Ah but if "you lot" all do that then the Scottish vote will also be to leave, taking all the wind out of Nicola's sails!


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## Adi2Dassler (May 27, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Ah but if "you lot" all do that then the Scottish vote will also be to leave, taking all the wind out of Nicola's sails! 

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Not all of 'us' are as devious, full of hate and myopic as me


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## FairwayDodger (May 27, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Not all of 'us' are as devious, full of hate and myopic as me 

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You fiend, you!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			I suspect he knows that economically we are best in, and elections are just about always won on the economy.  Also big business will be campaigning heavily to stay in, plus Labour and the Lib Dems are broadly pro-Europe.  Yes you'll get the usual suspects in the media still blaming the EU for everything, but I suspect when most people are in front of the poling card, much like they did at the last election, they will think with their wallets and vote to stay in.
		
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Cameron might know that - but will it actually get through to the electorate who want to vote to get OUT.  Will they listen when already some on the OUT side are saying such as I mentioned and 'well they would say that... sort of stuff.  I fear that many anti-european folk are simply anti-immigration and on that basis alone they will vote to leave - regardless of any negative economic impact.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I wondered how long it would be before Scotland and SNP was brought into it -
		
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Well the SNP *will* look to use an OUT vote as a basis for a further referendum if Scotland votes to stay IN.  And if you vote to leave you need to be aware - if you care one jot - that that could be an outcome of an OUT.  Though in truth many in EWANI might actually want to precipitate that event.


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 27, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Though in truth many in EWANI might actually want to precipitate that event.
		
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This your mate down the pub again?


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## Hobbit (May 27, 2015)

I wonder how much the EU countries want us to stay, and what they'd be willing to give on to make that happen. They might not like us but as a nett contributor to the EU I'm sure they want our money.


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## Snelly (May 27, 2015)

Like most I think, I would like to see the UK stay in the EU but with a far greater say on a number of issues that are detrimentally affecting the country. 

As Dan Hannan said today, amazing that so many progressive types want us to stay in the EU with closer federal ties yet we pay more today to French farmers than those in African villages.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 27, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well the SNP *will* look to use an OUT vote as a basis for a further referendum if Scotland votes to stay IN.  And if you vote to leave you need to be aware - if you care one jot - that that could be an outcome of an OUT.  Though in truth many in EWANI might actually want to precipitate that event.
		
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EWANI :rofl:

It's no surprise the talk moved to a Scottish referendum


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## Foxholer (May 27, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			EWANI :rofl:

It's no surprise the talk moved to a Scottish referendum
		
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Well stop encouraging that talk!!

Not enough granulation in the voting options for me! Certainly for UK/Britain to be in imo, but certainly issues that need to be dealt with too! I'm not in favour of 'greater political union' though - whatever that is!


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## scottbrown (May 27, 2015)

I would vote to leave any sort of political union with the rest of Europe.
The original vote was around a trade agreement, that I believe is a good thing. As an independent group of countries we should be able to determine our own political agendas and rules, not be governed by a gravy train on the continent


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## Hacker Khan (May 27, 2015)

scottbrown said:



			I would vote to leave any sort of political union with the rest of Europe.
The original vote was around a trade agreement, that I believe is a good thing. As an independent group of countries we should be able to determine our own political agendas and rules, not be governed by a gravy train on the continent
		
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We still have a lot of governance over both our laws and our economy. If we were in the Euro and limited to what we can do with out interest rates then I would buy the argument more over European influence.  But we are not and free to set our interest rates as we need to. Also our parliament has been vomiting out new laws by the bucket load for ages now, and today I did not hear Queeny say that we would just do what Brussels told us to do.  Yes of course they will have an influence on what we can and can't do in some areas which usually garner a completely disproportionate amount of publicity compared to areas where we do govern ourselves, but to say that we are governed by them to me is vastly exaggerating the situation. 


And note how I manged to get through that without blaming The Daily Mail and Express for blatant scaremongering.


D'oh.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Well stop encouraging that talk!!

Not enough granulation in the voting options for me! Certainly for UK/Britain to be in imo, but certainly issues that need to be dealt with too! I'm not in favour of 'greater political union' though - whatever that is!
		
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And given the stuff the I think Cameron is going to try and negotiate on - I'm not sure what of that is to do with less political union or not - I don;t think any of it actual *is* anything to do with political union - and as Foxholer says - whatever *that* is!


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## Foxholer (May 27, 2015)

scottbrown said:



			I would vote to leave any sort of political union with the rest of Europe.
The original vote was around a trade agreement, that I believe is a good thing. As an independent group of countries we should be able to determine our own political agendas and rules, not be governed by a gravy train on the continent
		
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Remember though that the vote will simply an In/Out one! Or at least that was what was promised!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 27, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Remember though that the vote will simply an In/Out one! Or at least that was what was promised!
		
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Aye - no _Eurolution Max_ option on the voting form


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## SocketRocket (May 27, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Well stop encouraging that talk!!

Not enough granulation in the voting options for me! Certainly for UK/Britain to be in imo, but certainly issues that need to be dealt with too! I'm not in favour of 'greater political union' though - whatever that is!
		
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I thought about that but decided against 50 options.


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## MadAdey (May 27, 2015)

I'm not someone who is heavily into political arguments and tend to stear clear of political news on the TV, so this is an opinion of someone who is not an expert on politics. 

I see see the trading within Europe that the EU brings is a good thing, has the UK suffered or flourished because of it? IMO we have done well out of it.

My problem is this:

1) Brussels appears to have some control on how the UK is run and the laws that we have to follow. We do not have and never had for a long time problems with human rights and every man, poor or rich, having a fair say.

2) How much money do we pump into the EU compared to how much we actually get back? It feels like we are depositing Â£1,000 into our bank account, but the bank only crediting us with Â£500. 

But it like I said this is the view of someone who does not follow politics.


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## Stuart_C (May 27, 2015)

Now the SNP have got there feet under the table, I reckon we should leave the EU and the cash we lose, we'll gain with "our" oil &gas.


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## gazr99 (May 27, 2015)

I'm happy with things the way they are, there just needs to be a look into the loopholes of immigration, i.e. people coming without any notable skills wight he sole aim of receiving benefits (I do think this over exaggerated by the media though). As well as ensuring more safeguards if we are helping bailout the likes of Greece, especially as we are not part of the Euro


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## MarkE (May 28, 2015)

I'm surprised the poll is'nt more in favour of leaving. Why anybody should think the UK, which I believe is currently the sixth largest economy in the world, is unable to run it's own affairs is beyond me. The sooner we leave the better imo.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 28, 2015)

MarkE said:



			I'm surprised the poll is'nt more in favour of leaving. Why anybody should think the UK, which I believe is currently the sixth largest economy in the world, is unable to run it's own affairs is beyond me. The sooner we leave the better imo.
		
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Because our economy is that large helped by business links to countries in Europe that would be at risk if we left the EU 

I have a feeling there will be a lot of businesses that benefit from being in the EU will strongly back a campaign to stay in the EU


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## HomerJSimpson (May 28, 2015)

MarkE said:



			I'm surprised the poll is'nt more in favour of leaving. Why anybody should think the UK, which I believe is currently the sixth largest economy in the world, is unable to run it's own affairs is beyond me. The sooner we leave the better imo.
		
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I think there are still more benefits to the UK being in than out and despite our place in the world economy, it isn't a question of not being able to run our affairs, more we have more to gain being in


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## MarkE (May 28, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because our economy is that large helped by business links to countries in Europe that would be at risk if we left the EU
		
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But where is the evidence for this? The UK would still trade with the EU if we were out of it, as it does with the rest of the world and would be able to negotiate it's own trade agreements. The EU would'nt suddenly stop trading with the UK, it wants our trade.
Business, anyway, is just a small part of what the EU has become.


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## SocketRocket (May 28, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I think there are still more benefits to the UK being in than out and despite our place in the world economy, it isn't a question of not being able to run our affairs, more we have more to gain being in
		
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Please explain what these benefits are that we would lose Homer.


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## SocketRocket (May 28, 2015)

MarkE said:



			But where is the evidence for this? The UK would still trade with the EU if we were out of it, as it does with the rest of the world and would be able to negotiate it's own trade agreements. The EU would'nt suddenly stop trading with the UK, it wants our trade.
Business, anyway, is just a small part of what the EU has become.
		
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Good post.   Some suggest that if we were not members then all trade with the EU would stop, this is unrealistic as we currently trade at a deficit and I am sure Germany Et Al would still want us to buy their cars etc.


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## jp5 (May 29, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Good post.   Some suggest that if we were not members then all trade with the EU would stop, this is unrealistic as we currently trade at a deficit and I am sure Germany Et Al would still want us to buy their cars etc.
		
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I don't think I've seen anyone suggest that trade would stop with the EU should we leave. If anyone has, well then they're a numpty.

It'd be a massive gamble to leave the EU, and for me the potential of leaving is more damaging than staying put (similar to my views on Scotland).

I wouldn't want to see many hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) of people's jobs cast into doubt, and higher taxes for those who do stay in work.


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## Hobbit (May 29, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because our economy is that large helped by business links to countries in Europe that would be at risk if we left the EU 

I have a feeling there will be a lot of businesses that benefit from being in the EU will strongly back a campaign to stay in the EU
		
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Apparently we import more from the EU than we export by some margin. I'm inclined to think, along with being a nett contributor financially, they need us more than we need them. And in that respect, I'd like to think we're in a very strong position to negotiate. 

We pay in Â£15billion, and receive Â£10billion in rebates. There are 11 countries who pay in more than they receive back, Britain being the second largest nett contributor, Â£4 billion behind Germany. 4 of those 11 only 'appear' to be nett contributors because of the trade that flows through their countries to an ajoining EU country. In effect, 7 EU countries are paying money to 19 other countries because those countries are negligent in managing their budgets.

So as well as being a huge nett contributor we have the joys of EU laws imposed upon us AND we still don't garner enough votes to win Eurovision!


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## MarkE (May 29, 2015)

jp5 said:



			I don't think I've seen anyone suggest that trade would stop with the EU should we leave. If anyone has, well then they're a numpty.

It'd be a massive gamble to leave the EU, and for me the potential of leaving is more damaging than staying put (similar to my views on Scotland).

I wouldn't want to see many hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) of people's jobs cast into doubt, and higher taxes for those who do stay in work.
		
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Again, on what evidence. These figures that are bandied about come from the pro EU lobby and i have seen nothing to back this up. Our trade would continue with Europe, hence the jobs that rely on said trade would not disappear.


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## jp5 (May 29, 2015)

MarkE said:



			Again, on what evidence. These figures that are bandied about come from the pro EU lobby and i have seen nothing to back this up. Our trade would continue with Europe, hence the jobs that rely on said trade would not disappear.
		
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Of course at this stage there is no evidence either way as it is all hypothetical.

But what I have said is true - global firms, that employ many people here, may see the UK as a less attractive place to invest. Uncertainty is not conducive to a stable economy.

As one example, take RBS who said they would relocate to London should Scotland vote 'Yes' to independence.

For me, a recovering economy is not worth putting at risk for the benefits that being outside of the EU would bring.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 29, 2015)

MarkE said:



			But where is the evidence for this? *The UK would still trade with the EU if we were out of it, as it does with the rest of the world and would be able to negotiate it's own trade agreements. The EU would'nt suddenly stop trading with the UK, it wants our trade.*
Business, anyway, is just a small part of what the EU has become.
		
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Unfortunately you have no idea whatsoever how well or otherwise the UK would do outside of Europe as it is all just guesswork.


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## delc (May 29, 2015)

There are 3 'stay in the EU' voting options, but only one for leaving! I personally would like to stay in the EU, but without the ridiculous French/German levels of bureaucracy!


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## CheltenhamHacker (May 29, 2015)

delc said:



			There are 3 'stay in the EU' voting options, but only one for leaving! I personally would like to stay in the EU, but without the ridiculous French/German levels of bureaucracy!  

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That is how a vote would work. How many options for "leaving completely" would you like?


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## MarkE (May 29, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Unfortunately you have no idea whatsoever how well or otherwise the UK would do outside of Europe as it is all just guesswork.
		
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Unfortunately, neither have you. It's all about opinion. Mine is we would be better off out of the EU, if you don't agree, fair enough.


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## jp5 (May 29, 2015)

MarkE said:



			Unfortunately, neither have you. It's all about opinion. Mine is we would be better off out of the EU, if you don't agree, fair enough.
		
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No, but the 'Yes' campaign do have the advantage of knowing the current state of affairs - which is the UK having one of the strongest economies within, and as part of, the EU.

Much like the very late Conservative surge in the election, I expect many people will vote for the devil they know than the one they don't!


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## MarkE (May 29, 2015)

jp5 said:



			For me, a recovering economy is not worth putting at risk for the benefits that being outside of the EU would bring.
		
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But I could argue the recovering economy in the UK is in spite of being in the EU, not because of it. Certainly the rest of the EU is not recovering like the UK. I could further argue that the recovery would have been quicker if it was'nt for the drag the EU places on the UK economy.


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## MarkE (May 29, 2015)

jp5 said:



			Much like the very late Conservative surge in the election, I expect many people will vote for the devil they know than the one they don't!
		
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I actually agree with you that the electorate will eventually vote for the status quo, mainly because the establishment will be pushing that line non stop up until the vote, even if Cameron dos'nt get the consessions he's after.


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## jp5 (May 29, 2015)

MarkE said:



			But I could argue the recovering economy in the UK is in spite of being in the EU, not because of it. Certainly the rest of the EU is not recovering like the UK. I could further argue that the recovery would have been quicker if it was'nt for the drag the EU places on the UK economy.
		
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You could, but in fact figures suggest that the economic recovery is reliant on the UK's membership of the EU, in terms of the high levels of migration that have come our way.


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## jp5 (May 29, 2015)

MarkE said:



			I actually agree with you that the electorate will eventually vote for the status quo, mainly because the establishment will be pushing that line non stop up until the vote, even if Cameron dos'nt get the consessions he's after.
		
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Certainly if you look at the 7 political parties that took in the election debates, 6 of them are broadly pro-Europe which would suggest that you are right!

So UKIP have important task of ensuring that the referendum is run fairly, but with their minimal representation in Westminster (and I'm not convinced that Carswell won't get fed up at some point!) that is going to be tough to do from their position.

I think there are good arguments to be made on either side, but the 'No' campaign I feel is going to be ruled by those with the loudest voices and perhaps not most sensible arguments - perhaps turning more people over to 'Yes'.


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## MarkE (May 29, 2015)

jp5 said:



			You could, but in fact figures suggest that the economic recovery is reliant on the UK's membership of the EU, in terms of the high levels of migration that have come our way.
		
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But then you are getting into statistics and hyperbole and you know you can make them mean whatever suits your own agenda. People should make up their own minds  and not be swayed by mere facts.


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## MarkE (May 29, 2015)

jp5 said:



			So UKIP have important task of ensuring that the referendum is run fairly, but with their minimal representation in Westminster (and I'm not convinced that Carswell won't get fed up at some point!) that is going to be tough to do from their position.

I think there are good arguments to be made on either side, but the 'No' campaign I feel is going to be ruled by those with the loudest voices and perhaps not most sensible arguments - perhaps turning more people over to 'Yes'.
		
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I agree. But folk can deride UKIP as much as they like, but without them we would never have got a referendum and at least a chance to have our say.


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## jp5 (May 29, 2015)

MarkE said:



			I agree. But folk can deride UKIP as much as they like, but without them we would never have got a referendum and at least a chance to have our say.
		
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Oh I'm certainly not deriding UKIP. They have a massively important role to play, not just with regards to the referendum but other issues such as proportional representation. 4 million votes for 1 seat!

I think the party could have done with moving on from Farage though. They have some intelligent politicians who are able to convey their opinions articulately and without rhetoric - Stephen Woolfe for me would be an excellent leader. Anyone that bluntly dismisses UKIP as racist is for me guilty of the very misdemeanors that they accuse UKIP of!


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## MarkE (May 29, 2015)

jp5 said:



			Oh I'm certainly not deriding UKIP. They have a massively important role to play, not just with regards to the referendum but other issues such as proportional representation. 4 million votes for 1 seat!

I think the party could have done with moving on from Farage though. They have some intelligent politicians who are able to convey their opinions articulately and without rhetoric - Stephen Woolfe for me would be an excellent leader. Anyone that bluntly dismisses UKIP as racist is for me guilty of the very misdemeanors that they accuse UKIP of!
		
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Well put. I'm sure when it came down to it, Farage lost Ukip some important support. He was the sort of character needed to galvanize a new party, but if they want to progress it's got to be with somone else at the helm.


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## Foxholer (May 29, 2015)

MarkE said:



			But where is the evidence for this? The UK would still trade with the EU if we were out of it, as it does with the rest of the world and would be able to negotiate it's own trade agreements. The EU would'nt suddenly stop trading with the UK, it wants our trade.
Business, anyway, is just a small part of what the EU has become.
		
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The cost of doing this business - even if the actual tariff is still zero - will increase because of the additional bureaucracy/paperwork involved! Therefore, some of those businesses exporting will not bother to export (either simply because they don't want that increased cost, or that cost makes them un-competitive)  and the cost to the UK consumer of products imported will increase - to reflect the increased costs to EU members.

Btw. This thread is about Britain and the EU - not about UKIP! While somewhat associated, if you want to discuss UKIP/PR etc, please create a 'The Future of UKIP' or similar thread!


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## MarkE (May 29, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			The cost of doing this business - even if the actual tariff is still zero - will increase because of the additional bureaucracy/paperwork involved! Therefore, some of those businesses exporting will not bother to export (either simply because they don't want that increased cost, or that cost makes them un-competitive)  and the cost to the UK consumer of products imported will increase - to reflect the increased costs to EU members.
		
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Are you sure? The EU has smothered everything in red tape over the last couple of decades. Theres no evidence that a box of oranges from Spain will cost any more from outside the EU.


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## Foxholer (May 29, 2015)

MarkE said:



			Are you sure? The EU has smothered everything in red tape over the last couple of decades. Theres no evidence that a box of oranges from Spain will cost any more from outside the EU.
		
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There will be ADDITIONAL red tape! So that box of oranges from Spain WILL cost more!

If you can't see that, then you shouldn't be in this discussion! 

And can you produce some evidence of the red tape the EU has smothered everything in - that affects those Spanish Oranges coming into UK?


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## jp5 (May 29, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Btw. This thread is about Britain and the EU - not about UKIP! While somewhat associated, if you want to discuss UKIP/PR etc, please create a 'The Future of UKIP' or similar thread!
		
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As MarkE pointed out, we wouldn't be having a referendum if it weren't for the rise of UKIP, so more than right to mention them in discussion :thup:


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## Ethan (May 29, 2015)

I will be voting yes, to stay in the EU, and I don't have much of a problem with greater political union either, to be honest. 

The EU is far from perfect and needs some change, but many of the objections raised by opponents are completely spurious or simply false. The EU has a major role in trade, for sure, but its role in loads of other things from medicines regulation to safety in the workplace and scientific innovation is critical too. 

Leaving the EU would be a suicidally stupid thing to do. It is a disgrace that the Tories, most of whom want to stay and understand the insanity of leaving, are willing to play these brinkmanship games with the EU and plunge the economy into uncertainty in order to deal with their political opponents on the right.


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## jp5 (May 29, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Leaving the EU would be a suicidally stupid thing to do. It is a disgrace that the Tories, most of whom want to stay and understand the insanity of leaving, are willing to play these brinkmanship games with the EU and plunge the economy into uncertainty in order to deal with their political opponents on the right.
		
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I think not having a referendum would be worse in the long term. Tensions would grow, divides would widen, and denying people a say would disillusion people's interests in politics further.

I fully expect most people will be sensible enough to realise the benefits of staying within the EU, and the risks of leaving. The issue can be put to bed for a generation (unlike Scotland there won't be appetite for another referendum within a few years).


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## MarkE (May 29, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			There will be ADDITIONAL red tape! So that box of oranges from Spain WILL cost more!

If you can't see that, then you shouldn't be in this discussion! 

Click to expand...

So your argument is basically, if anyone dos'nt agree with you they should'nt have an opinion. It's great living in a democracy ain't it?

If I want to mention Ukip, in a discussion on the EU, I will. 

Oh and ther's no need to SHOUT.:whoo:


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## Foxholer (May 29, 2015)

MarkE said:




So your argument is basically, if anyone dos'nt agree with you they should'nt have an opinion. It's great living in a democracy ain't it?
		
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Tosh!

Where did I say that? As in 'Show me the evidence'! 

And have you got that 'smothered in red tape' evidence yet?


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## MarkE (May 29, 2015)

I believe you said  'If you can't see that, then you shouldn't be in this discussion!'. Well, I can't seet that, so according to you I should'nt be in the discussion. Sounds pretty much like you are saying my opinion is not relevant.
Whereas, myself,  I welcome all opinions, even yours, even though you are wrong.


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## Foxholer (May 29, 2015)

jp5 said:



			As MarkE pointed out, we wouldn't be having a referendum if it weren't for the rise of UKIP, so more than right to mention them in discussion :thup:
		
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Perhaps (probably even) we wouldn't. But the discussion of UKIP was more about Farage and UKIP's future, not 'Britain and the EU'!



MarkE said:



			I believe you said  'If *you* can't see that, then *you* shouldn't be in this discussion!'. Well, I can't seet that, so according to you I should'nt be in the discussion. Sounds pretty much like you are saying my opinion is not relevant.
Whereas, myself,  I welcome all opinions, even yours, even though you are wrong.
		
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Note the highlighted words! 

And No, I'm not saying your opinion isn't relevant! After all (I assume) you will be able to vote in the Referendum, so your opinion IS relevant!

I'm merely pointing out the likely misconceptions! Based on Economic principles.

And please provide some (factual) evidence that I am wrong? I will be happy to adjust my knowledge if you can do so!

Speaking of evidence....How's that 'smothered in red tape' evidence coming along?


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## jp5 (May 29, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Perhaps (probably even) we wouldn't. But the discussion of UKIP was more about Farage and UKIP's future, not 'Britain and the EU'!
		
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It was a few sentences leading on from the importance UKIP have played in bringing about a referendum, and what will happen running up to said referendum.

Perhaps slightly tangential, but now the back and forth over whether it was relevant has continued significantly longer, and bears even less relevance to the EU referendum! Probably best just to have let it slide initially :thup:


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## MarkE (May 29, 2015)

I've noted the highlighted words and can't see what distinction you are trying to make. You pointed the remarks towards myself, so I stand by my reply.

There's misconceptions on both sides of the argument.

As for evidence, a quick google will do it. This links confirms that even brussels now admit that red tape, for want of a better term, is hindering business.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...verhauling-rulemaking-procedure-10261983.html
 and the goverments own website. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cut-eu-red-tape-report-from-the-business-taskforce


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## Foxholer (May 29, 2015)

MarkE said:



			I've noted the highlighted words and can't see what distinction you are trying to make. You pointed the remarks towards myself, so I stand by my reply.

There's misconceptions on both sides of the argument.

As for evidence, a quick google will do it. This links confirms that even brussels now admit that red tape, for want of a better term, is hindering business.http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...verhauling-rulemaking-procedure-10261983.html
 and the goverments own website. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cut-eu-red-tape-report-from-the-business-taskforce

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Ah! Real evidence! Though not entirely 'smothered', and it documents efforts to actually minimise/reduce the amount of 'red tape' that is required! 

It was only 'You' I was directing the statement to - not 'anybody' that you applied!

And the evidence you supplied simply reinforces my argument! Answer the following questions.....Why do you think they are complaining? What will the effect on cost to the consumer be? Now add more bureaucracy and paperwork and what will the effect on the price to the consumer be?


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## MarkE (May 29, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Ah! Real evidence! Though not entirely 'smothered', and it documents efforts to actually minimise/reduce the amount of 'red tape' that is required! 

It was only 'You' I was directing the statement to - not 'anybody' that you applied!

And the evidence you supplied simply reinforces my argument! Answer the following questions.....Why do you think they are complaining? What will the effect on cost to the consumer be? Now add more bureaucracy and paperwork and what will the effect on the price to the consumer be?
		
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Why would there be a need to reduce the amount of red tape if there was'nt a problem in the first place? The point I was making was is that it's easy to go online and with a few clicks find info to suit your own needs, either for or aginst EU membership.

I still don't see where your coming from on the next point. Your actual words, directed at myself were, 'If you can't see that, then you shouldn't be in this discussion!', indicating that you thought I had nothing valid to bring to the discussion. I answered accordingly.

Thirdly. I think they are complaining because there's too much bureaucracy within the EU. Again I am sure you could show me plenty of links to the contrary, but thats up to individuals to find as much info as possible and make an informed decision. 
Those links detail what is needed to reform the EU. I really don't care for reform, we should be outside the EU so their red tape would be irrelevant to us.

These are my own long standing views on the EU, yours are obviously very different to mine. As it should be.


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## delc (May 29, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			That is how a vote would work. How many options for "leaving completely" would you like?
		
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Essentially the 'yes I like to stay in the EU' is split three ways, but the no vote is not split at all!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 29, 2015)

delc said:



			Essentially the 'yes I like to stay in the EU' is split three ways, but the no vote is not split at all!
		
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Why do you need to split the no vote ?


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## Hobbit (May 29, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why do you need to split the no vote ?
		
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You might want to pop out for a few weeks...


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## Liverpoolphil (May 29, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			You might want to pop out for a few weeks...
		
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The answer could be interesting - could be amazed at different options of saying "no"


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## delc (May 30, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why do you need to split the no vote ?
		
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Because it might give the impression that more people want to leave the EU than want to stay in it!


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## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2015)

delc said:



			Because it might give the impression that more people want to leave the EU than want to stay in it!  

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Eh?

How exactly would it do that -

Its quite simple

5 people want to leave - that means 5 want to leave

3 want to stay in but with some changes 
3 further are happy to stay exactly how we are

that makes 6 wanting to staying in and 5 wanting to leave - its not rocket science

So right now in our poll

16 want to leave

47 want to stay in the EU


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## Foxholer (May 30, 2015)

MarkE said:



			Why would there be a need to reduce the amount of red tape if there was'nt a problem in the first place?
		
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Maybe! And maybe not! As that article implied, it's always worthwhile to keep red tape to a minimum - for obvious (cost) reasons, though a certain amount is always necessary! Adding further Red Tape - as would be required in a 'non-free-trade' relationship - adds cost! It's that concept that you don't seem to be able to recognise! The reason it is being raised is that it adds costs for the businesses (eg. the Spanish Orange Grower/Exporter) which will then be passed - either directly or through 'normal' Market forces - to the UK consumer! And the same will apply in the other direction!

That, and my shock at how you cannot see this obvious result, is the only point I was making! 



MarkE said:



			...
Thirdly. I think they are complaining because there's too much bureaucracy within the EU. Again I am sure you could show me plenty of links to the contrary, but thats up to individuals to find as much info as possible and make an informed decision. 
...
		
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An invention all from your own imagination! Without any justification from me, as I have offered no opinion on that!

You haven't answered the questions I asked you in my previous post. The answers should guide you through to the conclusion that 'it's all about increasing/reducing costs!'!


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## SocketRocket (May 30, 2015)

delc said:



			Essentially the 'yes I like to stay in the EU' is split three ways, but the no vote is not split at all!
		
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This was my poll and I set the options around what people thought about closer political union between the UK and the EU.  I put an option asking if you would prefer us to leave as some will probably be unhappy with any level of union.

I suggest that if anyone wants a poll around whether we should vote 'Yes' or 'No' to the fore coming referendum then they start their own poll.


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## ColchesterFC (May 30, 2015)

Why would there be more red tape if we left the EU? Wouldn't we simply lose the current red tape and add different red tape. Not being argumentative it's a genuine question as I'm interested and don't know.

Also, where is the best place to get independent information on the benefits of staying in/leaving the EU. All the info I've read so far has been biased one way or the other depending on the writer.


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## MarkE (May 30, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Maybe! And maybe not! As that article implied, it's always worthwhile to keep red tape to a minimum - for obvious (cost) reasons, though a certain amount is always necessary! Adding further Red Tape - as would be required in a 'non-free-trade' relationship - adds cost! It's that concept that you don't seem to be able to recognise! The reason it is being raised is that it adds costs for the businesses (eg. the Spanish Orange Grower/Exporter) which will then be passed - either directly or through 'normal' Market forces - to the UK consumer! And the same will apply in the other direction!

That, and my shock at how you cannot see this obvious result, is the only point I was making!
		
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No, that's yor opinion, not fact. I have an opposing opinion. Just because i don't agree with you dos'nt mean I don't understand the concept. My shock is that you don't seem to accept that what you see as an 'obvoius result' is different to what I see happening. Nobody's right or wrong. Opinion.





Foxholer said:



			An invention all from your own imagination! Without any justification from me, as I have offered no opinion on that!

You haven't answered the questions I asked you in my previous post. The answers should guide you through to the conclusion that 'it's all about increasing/reducing costs!'!
		
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Whats that all about, you asked regarding red tape 'Why do you think they are complaining?' and I answered.

Your final questions, 
'What will the effect on cost to the consumer be? Now add more bureaucracy and paperwork and what will the effect on the price to the consumer be?'  
I honestly don't know, but crucially, neither do you. All about informed opinions. But then I hav'nt asked you to answer specific questions that no one can definitively answer. Mainly because i'm not interested what your take on the matter is, i'll make up my own mind.:thup:


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## Foxholer (May 30, 2015)

MarkE said:



			No, that's yor opinion, not fact. I have an opposing opinion. Just because i don't agree with you dos'nt mean I don't understand the concept. My shock is that you don't seem to accept that what you see as an 'obvoius result' is different to what I see happening. Nobody's right or wrong. Opinion.





Whats that all about, you asked regarding red tape 'Why do you think they are complaining?' and I answered.

Your final questions, 
'What will the effect on cost to the consumer be? Now add more bureaucracy and paperwork and what will the effect on the price to the consumer be?'  
I honestly don't know, but crucially, neither do you. All about informed opinions. But then I hav'nt asked you to answer specific questions that no one can definitively answer. Mainly because i'm not interested what your take on the matter is, i'll make up my own mind.:thup:
		
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:rofl: :rofl:

Seems I was right with my 'you don't belong.....' statement! Go check out 'Supply Side Economics'! Even those that use different models for driving an economy, agree that the cutting red tape (regulation) decreases costs to consumers - and likewise increasing it increases cost to consumer!


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## SocketRocket (May 30, 2015)

I doubt if there would be any significant change in administration within a free trade zone.  This tends to be the case where import and export tariffs are in force.


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## MarkE (May 30, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			:rofl: :rofl:

Seems I was right with my 'you don't belong.....' statement! Go check out 'Supply Side Economics'! Even those that use different models for driving an economy, agree that the cutting red tape (regulation) decreases costs to consumers - and likewise increasing it increases cost to consumer!
		
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Seems I was right that you don't believe anyone can have a different opinion to yours. Still, the more people trying to force their opinions down other peoples throats, as fact, can only enhance the chances of the NO vote.:whoo:


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## Foxholer (May 30, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			I doubt if there would be any significant change in administration within a free trade zone.  This tends to be the case where import and export tariffs are in force.
		
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What Free Trade Zone are you talking about?

If you are talking about the current EU one and should UK exit the EU, UK would simply (automatically) become a Non-EU country and subject to import and export quotas and tariffs just like every other non-EU/EEA country.


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## SocketRocket (May 31, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			What Free Trade Zone are you talking about?

If you are talking about the current EU one and should UK exit the EU, UK would simply (automatically) become a Non-EU country and subject to import and export quotas and tariffs just like every other non-EU/EEA country.
		
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I mean the Free Trade Zone we would attempt/probably would negotiate with the EU.   It would not be in the interest of the EU to place trading barriers on the UK as this would lead to reciprocal barriers where the EU would fair badly due to their trading surplus with us.


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## Foxholer (May 31, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			I mean the Free Trade Zone we would attempt/probably would negotiate with the EU.   It would not be in the interest of the EU to place trading barriers on the UK as this would lead to reciprocal barriers where the EU would fair badly due to their trading surplus with us.
		
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That's putting an enormous amount amount of faith in the ability to negotiate such a deal!

While I can certainly see advantages for both sides in doing so, I can see a huge reluctance on the EU's part to allow that to happen, as it would create such a dangerous (not quite) precedent! The situation with Switzerland (creating migramt quotas as the result of a 2014 referendum and the likely consequent scrapping of their Free Trade Deal because of the guillotine clause that activates 6 months after renunciation/non-renewal after any one of the associated deals) is likely to come to a head in 2017 also! As the free movement of people is such a fundamental tenet of EU, I don't see them moving on that issue!

Leaving the EU is a huge step to take (though a simple one to call for!) in order to 'solve' a 'problem' that is actually something that many Conservatives don't really believe is actually a very large problem! After all, opening up (labour) markets is one of their tenets! There are 'better' ways to have a relatively free labour market and still control immigration imo, even within the EU environment!

What a 'No' vote might do is actually shake up the EU to such a degree that there may be changes. But by that time, UK would have withdrawn, so it would be too late for UK!


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## MegaSteve (May 31, 2015)

I voted not to join and I will be voting to come out...

Believe I am going to be disappointed a second time...


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## SocketRocket (May 31, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			That's putting an enormous amount amount of faith in the ability to negotiate such a deal!

While I can certainly see advantages for both sides in doing so, I can see a huge reluctance on the EU's part to allow that to happen, as it would create such a dangerous (not quite) precedent! The situation with Switzerland (creating migramt quotas as the result of a 2014 referendum and the likely consequent scrapping of their Free Trade Deal because of the guillotine clause that activates 6 months after renunciation/non-renewal after any one of the associated deals) is likely to come to a head in 2017 also! As the free movement of people is such a fundamental tenet of EU, I don't see them moving on that issue!

Leaving the EU is a huge step to take (though a simple one to call for!) in order to 'solve' a 'problem' that is actually something that many Conservatives don't really believe is actually a very large problem! After all, opening up (labour) markets is one of their tenets! There are 'better' ways to have a relatively free labour market and still control immigration imo, even within the EU environment!

What a 'No' vote might do is actually shake up the EU to such a degree that there may be changes. But by that time, UK would have withdrawn, so it would be too late for UK!
		
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I believe the UK would be in a position of strength to negotiate a suitable trade arrangement with the EU.  If the EU wished to create trade barriers then as I suggested they would not profit from it.   The UK would be free to set trade arrangements Worldwide and I also believe we would be very good at negotiating such deals.

The free movement of labour in the EU will create further issues in the UK as more countries with poor living standards are allowed to join.   Turkey for example with a population of around 77 million could create the largest movement of people to the UK than we have experienced to date.    Unless the EU can accept that the free movement of labour cannot be an automatic method for mass migration from poor countries to richer ones without some sensible points based system then it will eventually hoist it's self by it's own petard.


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## Foxholer (May 31, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			...
The free movement of labour in the EU will create further issues in the UK as more countries with poor living standards are allowed to join.   Turkey for example with a population of around 77 million could create the largest movement of people to the UK than we have experienced to date.    Unless the EU can accept that the free movement of labour cannot be an automatic method for mass migration from poor countries to richer ones without some sensible points based system then it will eventually hoist it's self by it's own petard.
		
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Can you explain why it's only a problem for UK? France and Germany in particular, and especially should Turkey join, should have a similar 'problem'! Yet there doesn't seem to be any reported problem! There are also other EU members with considerably higher percentage of (EU) immigrants that don't seem to have the same problems as UK!

Are those countries simply more accepting of the Free Movement laws? Have they restricted their access to benefits, so that while they contribute to the economy they are fine, but are effectively chucked out when they no longer contribute? Or is it merely classic UK News Media Xenephobia that is driving the issue!


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## SocketRocket (May 31, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Can you explain why it's only a problem for UK? France and Germany in particular, and especially should Turkey join, should have a similar 'problem'! Yet there doesn't seem to be any reported problem! There are also other EU members with considerably higher percentage of (EU) immigrants that don't seem to have the same problems as UK!

Are those countries simply more accepting of the Free Movement laws? Have they restricted their access to benefits, so that while they contribute to the economy they are fine, but are effectively chucked out when they no longer contribute? Or is it merely classic UK News Media Xenephobia that is driving the issue!
		
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I didn't really suggest that it would not be a problem for other countries as I am more concerned with what happens here.  I do know that many Germans are not happy with immigration levels and I believe there is a growing discontent in France and Italy.   Many other EU countries (Eastern European in particular)  are happy with the current arrangements as their people have done well from freedom of movement, also not many people want to go to live in their countries as the wages/benefits are low and they don't seem to welcome multiculturalism.

Many countries do have lower access to benefits which are much less generous.    A problem I see is in the number of low skilled people who work here on minimum wage and as such pay little or no income tax but receive benefits like tax credits, housing allowance and child benefits (sometimes even when their children have never been to the UK)  These benefits can boost their wage by around Â£10K per annum.   It's a massive pull factor to people we don't really need and drives down wages for the poorest in our country.


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## Foxholer (May 31, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			I didn't really suggest that it would not be a problem for other countries as I am more concerned with what happens here.  I do know that many Germans are not happy with immigration levels and I believe there is a growing discontent in France and Italy.   Many other EU countries (Eastern European in particular)  are happy with the current arrangements as their people have done well from freedom of movement, also not many people want to go to live in their countries as the wages/benefits are low and they don't seem to welcome multiculturalism.

Many countries do have lower access to benefits and their benefits are much less generous.    A problem I see is in the number of low skilled people who work here on minimum wage and as such pay little or no income tax but receive benefits like tax credits, housing allowance and child benefits (sometimes even when their children have never been to the UK)  These benefits can boost their wage by around Â£10K per annum.   It's a massive pull factor to people we don't really need and drives down wages for the poorest in our country.
		
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Then surely negotiation WITHIN the EU about (or even simply imposition of) restrictions to such benefits would be more effective to solving this 'problem'! And a 'common' approach with Germany, France and the other countries with the issue would be an vastly simpler way!

To me, it's another example of why using the Tax system is an extremely clumsy/cumbersome method of providing such benefits!


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## SocketRocket (May 31, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Then surely negotiation WITHIN the EU about (or even simply imposition of) restrictions to such benefits would be more effective to solving this 'problem'! And a 'common' approach with Germany, France and the other countries with the issue would be an vastly simpler way!
		
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Isn't that what we are trying to do?   The problem is that all 27 other states have to agree and somehow I cant see that happening.


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## MegaSteve (May 31, 2015)

David Davis opined, recently, that immigration levels aren't on DaveCam's shopping list...

Feel that's going to disappoint 1 or 2...


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## Foxholer (May 31, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Isn't that what we are trying to do?   The problem is that all 27 other states have to agree and somehow I cant see that happening.
		
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And it's also exactly what the negotiators of a Free Trade Agreement would have to do! - again with the agreement of all 27 remaining countries! Except after having withdrawn from the Union they are negotiating with! As I posted earlier, that's a lot of faith you are putting in those negotiators! Personally, I don't believe they've got a hope of negotiating such an agreement!

If it can't be done within the EU, what makes you think there is any hope of achieving the same thing from outside?!!

There doesn't actually seem any reason why access to benefits can't be restricted for a certain period! That way, everybody is 'happy'! The Freedom of Movement criteria isn't breached; a flexible UK labour market still exists; the burden on the UK for benefits (from benefit free-loading immigrants) is significantly reduced, if not eliminated;


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## SocketRocket (May 31, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			And it's also exactly what the negotiators of a Free Trade Agreement would have to do! - again with the agreement of all 27 remaining countries! Except after having withdrawn from the Union they are negotiating with! As I posted earlier, that's a lot of faith you are putting in those negotiators! Personally, I don't believe they've got a hope of negotiating such an agreement!

If it can't be done within the EU, what makes you think there is any hope of achieving the same thing from outside?!!

There doesn't actually seem any reason why access to benefits can't be restricted for a certain period! That way, everybody is 'happy'! The Freedom of Movement criteria isn't breached; a flexible UK labour market still exists; the burden on the UK for benefits (from benefit free-loading immigrants) is significantly reduced, if not eliminated;
		
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Because we cant restrict benefits to EU immigrants without the approval of the 27 members.


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## Foxholer (Jun 1, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Because we cant restrict benefits to EU immigrants without the approval of the 27 members.
		
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Tosh! Other countries have done it!


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## MegaSteve (Jun 1, 2015)

The first item on DaveCams list should be the annual 'subs'...

If 'we' get back two thirds then why bother handing it over in the first place?

Rather than pass a law to not raise taxes I'd rather them pass a law not to waste tax payers hard earned cash...

Then see them explain away the Â£55m [and then some] DAILY cost of EU membership...


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## SocketRocket (Jun 1, 2015)

Foxholer said:



*Tosh!* Other countries have done it!
		
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If you use comments like that I don't want to discuss it with you further.


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## Ethan (Jun 1, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			The first item on DaveCams list should be the annual 'subs'...

If 'we' get back two thirds then why bother handing it over in the first place?
		
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Obviously it looks like more of a victory against the evil forces of the EU.

As with much of this debate, basically smoke and mirrors.

Asking the average punter in the street whether Â£55m a day is too much money to pay into the EU is a waste of breath, akin to asking the same person how much rocket fuel is needed to send a rocket to the moon. They have no idea and why should they?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2015)

I read that any UK budget cuts/saving//expenditure amounting to less than Â£5Bn a year is fiddling rounds the edges, then Â£55m a day is equivalent to about three such measures.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 1, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Obviously it looks like more of a victory against the evil forces of the EU.

As with much of this debate, basically smoke and mirrors.

Asking the average punter in the street whether Â£55m a day is too much money to pay into the EU is a waste of breath, akin to asking the same person how much rocket fuel is needed to send a rocket to the moon. They have no idea and why should they?
		
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Then simplify the question...

Where I have been visiting is in real need of a second river crossing... 
I suspect if you asked the locals whether a new bridge, at a cost of a day and a bit of EU membership, is better value than the EU they'd plump, in the main, for the bridge...

Ask a similar question, of taxpayers all over the UK, regarding projects for their local area and the EU suddenly [hopefully] becomes an unwelcome expense...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			Then simplify the question...

Where I have been visiting is in real need of a second river crossing... 
*I suspect if you asked the locals whether a new bridge, at a cost of a day and a bit of EU membership, is better value than the EU they'd plump, in the main, for the bridge...*

Ask a similar question, of taxpayers all over the UK, regarding projects for their local area and the EU suddenly [hopefully] becomes an unwelcome expense...
		
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Might I suggest that this would simply be because they have little or no idea of the impact on them of *not* being in the EU - or indeed which projects across the UK that they have benefitted from that have come through EU funding.


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## MegaSteve (Jun 1, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Might I suggest that this would simply be because they have little or no idea of the impact on them of *not* being in the EU - or indeed which projects across the UK that they have benefitted from that have come through EU funding.
		
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Oh, they are perfectly aware what membership has done for them... Wiped out their fishing fleet and all the jobs associated with it... Now rely on seasonal work and what little of that is now disappearing to the incoming east Europeans...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			Oh, they are perfectly aware what membership has done for them... Wiped out their fishing fleet and all the jobs associated with it... Now rely on seasonal work and what little of that is now disappearing to the incoming east Europeans...
		
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There you go - what did being in the EU ever do for us that wouldn't have happened anyway?


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## Foxholer (Jun 1, 2015)

SocketRocket said:





Foxholer said:



*Tosh!* Other countries have done it!
		
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If you use comments like that I don't want to discuss it with you further.
		
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:rofl:

Any excuse! 



MegaSteve said:



			Oh, they are perfectly aware what membership has done for them... *Wiped out their fishing fleet and all the jobs associated with it*... Now rely on seasonal work and what little of that is now disappearing to the incoming east Europeans...
		
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That could also be described as tosh! It's highly likely/almost certain that those fishing areas would have been wiped out even earlier if UK wasn't in the EU!

Your second point is valid though - and refered to in this article http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/19/immigration-policy-ukip-restrictions-european-union


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## MegaSteve (Jun 1, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			:rofl:

Any excuse! 



That could also be described as tosh! It's highly likely/almost certain that those fishing areas would have been wiped out even earlier if UK wasn't in the EU!

Your second point is valid though - and refered to in this article http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/19/immigration-policy-ukip-restrictions-european-union

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Tosh ... Is this your new word?

The continental boats [allowed under EU quota rules] still find plenty of fish off our shores... And, most likely contributed more, in the first instance, to the diminishing stocks in our seas...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			Tosh ... Is this your new word?

The continental boats [allowed under EU quota rules] still find plenty of fish off our shores... And, most likely contributed more, in the first instance, to the diminishing stocks in our seas...
		
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I could certainly imagine that advances in fishing technology and techniques being a significant factor in the depletion of fishing stocks.


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## Foxholer (Jun 1, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			Tosh ... Is this your new word?

The continental boats [allowed under EU quota rules] still find plenty of fish off our shores... And, most likely contributed more, in the first instance, to the diminishing stocks in our seas...
		
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Seems to be most appropriate for many of the posts regarding EU!

Can you explain how it was UK's presence in the EU - *and how it would have been different if they weren't in the EU!* - that meant the quotas were too high? And while in the explanation mode...How are overall quotas and size of the boat/boats related - except in the number/time required to fill them?

So little/nothing to do with the fact that UK was in the EU at all!


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## Ethan (Jun 1, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			Then simplify the question...

Where I have been visiting is in real need of a second river crossing... 
I suspect if you asked the locals whether a new bridge, at a cost of a day and a bit of EU membership, is better value than the EU they'd plump, in the main, for the bridge...

Ask a similar question, of taxpayers all over the UK, regarding projects for their local area and the EU suddenly [hopefully] becomes an unwelcome expense...
		
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That is the sort of simplistic nonsense that will no doubt be common in this debate. If the money used for [one thing] had been used to [something else] then it would have saved [someone's] live or prevented [some accident or other]. That may be the way the Govt presents stuff to the public, but it isn't the way budgeting occurs at a Governmental level. 

The world is a more complicated place than that, and the value of the UK expenditure to the EU occurs in all sorts of places including many that the average citizen has never even heard about or understands anything about. Nor do they know where else expenditure occurs and what sort of value it represents, or what it would cost to perform the same functions locally. As such, they are in no position to really understand the value and it just becomes political rhetoric.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 1, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			:rofl:

Any excuse! 

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OK, lets put it another way.   If I was having the same debate with you face to face; would you reply that my comment (which was polite and genuine ) was "Tosh"?      Or is that  (as I suspect) something reserved while in 'faceless keyboard mode'.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2015)

Ethan said:



			That is the sort of simplistic nonsense that will no doubt be common in this debate. If the money used for [one thing] had been used to [something else] then it would have saved [someone's] live or prevented [some accident or other]. That may be the way the Govt presents stuff to the public, but it isn't the way budgeting occurs at a Governmental level. 

The world is a more complicated place than that, and the value of the UK expenditure to the EU occurs in all sorts of places including many that the average citizen has never even heard about or understands anything about. Nor do they know where else expenditure occurs and what sort of value it represents, or what it would cost to perform the same functions locally. As such, they are in no position to really understand the value and it just becomes political rhetoric.
		
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Problem @Ethen with this line of argument is that you will be accused of a sneering - what do the public know, they can't be trusted with this - sort of attitude.  As much as I would totally agree with you.


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## Foxholer (Jun 1, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Problem @Ethen with this line of argument is that you will be accused of a sneering - what do the public know, they can't be trusted with this - sort of attitude.  As much as I would totally agree with you.
		
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Indeed, I'm inclined to this view too!

The problem the 'makes sense to stay in' have is getting those benefits across to the general public! And there are probably a few similarly barely quantifiable benefits on the other side (getting out) too! It's a situation with, to me at least, surprising parallels with another recent referendum - emotionally driven; loads of non-quantifiable arguments for/against and some absolute tosh being spouted - by both sides!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed, I'm inclined to this view too!

The problem the 'makes sense to stay in' have is getting those benefits across to the general public! And there are probably a few similarly barely quantifiable benefits on the other side (getting out) too! It's a situation with, to me at least, surprising parallels with another recent referendum - emotionally driven; loads of non-quantifiable arguments for/against and some absolute tosh being spouted - by both sides!
		
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...and like was said also in the GE - a load of Scots had decided to vote for a particular party - and no matter what arguments were made for other parties or that spelled out irrationalities and inconsistencies in the policies of that party - 50% of the Scots electorate ignored all of that and the party got 95% of the seats,  As canvassers for other parties said - the electorate had made up their minds in advance and just weren't listening to anything we said.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 1, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As canvassers for other parties said - the electorate had made up their minds in advance and just weren't listening to anything we said.
		
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As someone who is pro Yes but with some changes your point above also concerns me. Too many pre-conceived decisions have been made, particularly IMO on the No side.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 1, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			As someone who is pro Yes but with some changes your point above also concerns me. Too many pre-conceived decisions have been made, particularly IMO on the No side.
		
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That worries me too.  And I fear preconceived notions based upon misconceptions and misunderstandings - even over basic things like the relationship between the ECHR and the EU.  So leaving the EU gets us out of our obligations to the ECHR and means we could more easily  dump the Human Rights Act etc etc.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 1, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That worries me too.  And I fear preconceived notions based upon misconceptions and misunderstandings - even over basic things like the relationship between the ECHR and the EU.  So leaving the EU gets us out of our obligations to the ECHR and means we could more easily  dump the Human Rights Act etc etc.
		
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This is where I become annoyed with those politicians who suggest that the electorate are not sufficiently well informed to make a decision.

Whose fault is that?

The anti-Europeans have been happy to go along with the "straight bananas" type of story to support their xenophobic stance whilst the pro- Europe side have expected the public to accept that membership of the EU is good for the country simply because they say so.

Why can neither side not trust us with the facts?


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## Foxholer (Jun 2, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			This is where I become annoyed with those politicians who suggest that the electorate are not sufficiently well informed to make a decision.

Whose fault is that?

The anti-Europeans have been happy to go along with the "straight bananas" type of story to support their xenophobic stance whilst the pro- Europe side have expected the public to accept that membership of the EU is good for the country simply because they say so.

Why can neither side not trust us with the facts?
		
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Because, I'm sorry to say, in the main they are actually correct! Something around 85% plus of the electorate have almost certainly already made up their minds - and no amount of 'reasoned debate' is going to change their views! It's why Propoganda works and it's why/how much/most of the UK Press works!


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## jp5 (Jun 2, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			This is where I become annoyed with those politicians who suggest that the electorate are not sufficiently well informed to make a decision.

Why can neither side not trust us with the facts?
		
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I don't think politicians don't trust the public with the facts, it's that you need to hold a degree (or at least a modicum of interest) in politics/economics etc. to comprehend them.

You only have to look at how many people bought the lie that Labour caused the recession to see how effective propaganda is over straight talk.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2015)

jp5 said:



			I don't think politicians don't trust the public with the facts, it's that you need to hold a degree (or at least a modicum of interest) in politics/economics etc. to comprehend them.

You only have to look at how many people bought the lie that Labour caused the recession to see how effective propaganda is over straight talk.
		
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I don't think people blame Labour for creating the Banking Crash (other than not having suitable financial controls in place)  It's more their overspending in the Public Sector that people criticise them for.

So maybe the vote should be reserved for people with Degrees (or better) in Economics and Politics.   Who exactly should keep the General Public informed without bias then?


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## Foxholer (Jun 2, 2015)

jp5 said:



			I don't think politicians don't trust the public with the facts, it's that you need to hold a degree (or at least a modicum of interest) in politics/economics etc. to comprehend them.....
		
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A good degree of cynicism is all that's really required!

Knowledge of Economics on the other hand can be both helpful and a hindrance imo. It's certainly not an 'exact' science! 



jp5 said:



			You only have to look at how many people bought the lie that Labour caused the recession to see how effective propaganda is over straight talk.
		
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:thup: A perfect example!



SocketRocket said:



			So maybe the vote should be reserved for people with Degrees (or better) in Economics and Politics...
		
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Absolutely not! What do they know about the NHS for example. Include Doctors? Universal suffrage is the proper way as everybody is affected by the results, so deserves a say!



SocketRocket said:



			...Who exactly should keep the General Public informed without bias then?
		
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That should be the role of the News Media! But there's a distinct problem with that in UK! If both sides of the debate present their views, then it's fairly simple for those folk that want to compare the arguments to do so!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Jun 2, 2015)

jp5 said:



			I don't think politicians don't trust the public with the facts, it's that you need to hold a degree (or at least a modicum of interest) in politics/economics etc. to comprehend them.

You only have to look at how many people bought the lie that Labour caused the recession to see how effective propaganda is over straight talk.
		
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I am afraid that only supports the politicians in their belief that they know what is best for us and have no obligation to consult the electorate.

In view of the fact that the Commons is now almost exclusively occupied by those with no life experiences other than being professional politicians it is, in my view, very disturbing.

And what is wrong with providing fact based evidence to support their arguments, a degree is not an essential requirement to understand the debate.


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## Hobbit (Jun 2, 2015)

jp5 said:



			I don't think politicians don't trust the public with the facts, it's that you need to hold a degree (or at least a modicum of interest) in politics/economics etc. to comprehend them.

You only have to look at how many people bought the lie that Labour caused the recession to see how effective propaganda is over straight talk.
		
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I don't blame Labour for the global economic crash. What I do feel was unforgiveable was the absolutely crazy spending spree they went on, including selling off gold reserves, during a boom when they could have saved some for a rainy day. Sheer irresponsible madness!

I do hope that the facts behind the why stay/leave the EU are given to the electorate in an open, honest and unbiased way. The electorate is more intelligent than it gets credence for. And even if it isn't sure of the facts, it often knows when its being led up the garden path. Its that sort of arrogance that will lead to votes being cast in spite of not because of the reasons to stay/leave.

Personally, I think it will be a vote to stay in, similarly to the Scottish referendum vote last year. Politicians will play on people's fears of the unknown, as was done last year. But, equally, if the promises made to the electorate for their vote to stay in don't come to fruition we'll see similar back lashes that were evident in the GE voting in Scotland. If the Govt of the day doesn't deliver, you can guarantee the opposition parties will have a field day.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 2, 2015)

A number of things that were going to be addressed seem to have gone quiet lately.   Less EU interference with Business was one and especially the 'Working Hours' Directive.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2015)

Well, the Poll is now closed and it seems that the majority of voters are not content with the UK moving towards closer political union.   I am somewhat surprised by the number of votes to leave the EU period; although I know someone will put that down to Golfers being a load of old stuffed shirts 


Anyhow, thanks for voting and go careful out there


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## Foxholer (Jun 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Well, the Poll is now closed and it seems that the majority of voters are not content with the UK moving towards closer political union.   I am somewhat surprised by the number of votes to leave the EU period; although I know someone will put that down to Golfers being a load of old stuffed shirts 


Anyhow, thanks for voting and go careful out there 

Click to expand...

It was hardly a 'great' poll!

The only conclusion that can be drawn from it was that 23 of the 79 ( approx 30%) wanted to leave - as everybody else (the 56 approx 70%) that don't want to leave had to make a choice as to which of the 3 'stay' options they actually preferred! What surprises you about that number?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 3, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			I am afraid that only supports the politicians in their belief that they know what is best for us and have no obligation to consult the electorate.

In view of the fact that the Commons is now almost exclusively occupied by those with no life experiences other than being professional politicians it is, in my view, very disturbing.

And what is wrong with providing fact based evidence to support their arguments, a degree is not an essential requirement to understand the debate.
		
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But I fear many will not *listen *to the debate though they might hear it.  Over the last 5yrs they have been fed specific 'lines' as truth by the right wing press - and that 'truth' has shaped their opinions - which are now set.  Changing these opinions will be very, very difficult as any attempt to counter these 'truths' with 'facts' will be met with 'well you/they would say that' and 'politicians of the main parties - all the same - bunch of liars - why should I believe anything that they say' type responses  I can hear it now.

A 70% YES vote would be fantastic.  But doubt it will come to pass.


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## Hobbit (Jun 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Well, the Poll is now closed and it seems that the majority of voters are not content with the UK moving towards closer political union.   I am somewhat surprised by the number of votes to leave the EU period; although I know someone will put that down to Golfers being a load of old stuffed shirts 


Anyhow, thanks for voting and go careful out there 

Click to expand...

But what happens when Cameron doesn't get all he asked for? How will people vote then?

He's stuck between a rock and a hard place. What if he doesn't tell the electorate what changes he's asking for? At least then he could say he got every thing he asked for, whatever he gets. But if he does tell the electorate what he's negotiating for, and doesn't get it...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 3, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			But what happens when Cameron doesn't get all he asked for? How will people vote then?

He's stuck between a rock and a hard place. What if he doesn't tell the electorate what changes he's asking for? At least then he could say he got every thing he asked for, whatever he gets. But if he does tell the electorate what he's negotiating for, and doesn't get it...
		
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I think you are right in this being an issue - and that there is an expectation out there about what renegotiating means - and it might not be as significant in some aspects as many think - in fact it might not amount to a great deal to the man-in-the-street.


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## Ethan (Jun 3, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			But what happens when Cameron doesn't get all he asked for? How will people vote then?

He's stuck between a rock and a hard place. What if he doesn't tell the electorate what changes he's asking for? At least then he could say he got every thing he asked for, whatever he gets. But if he does tell the electorate what he's negotiating for, and doesn't get it...
		
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Don't worry. Whatever Cameron does get will be presented as all that he wanted, Labour will agree and only UKIP will object but they were always going to do so. Only a few Eurosceptic Tories will provide serious objection and Cameron will either buy them off or alienate them.


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## Hobbit (Jun 3, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Don't worry. Whatever Cameron does get will be presented as all that he wanted, Labour will agree and only UKIP will object but they were always going to do so. Only a few Eurosceptic Tories will provide serious objection and Cameron will either buy them off or alienate them.
		
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You're not wrong there, but its not parliament that will be deciding the outcome of the referendum. They can only hope to influence it.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			It was hardly a 'great' poll!

The only conclusion that can be drawn from it was that 23 of the 79 ( approx 30%) wanted to leave - as everybody else (the 56 approx 70%) that don't want to leave had to make a choice as to which of the 3 'stay' options they actually preferred! What surprises you about that number?
		
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"Hardly a great poll"!  What the hell do you expect off a 'Golf forum'!   :rofl:   It's not exactly the Poll of Polls, is it ?   

You didn't apear to read my previous comment did you.   I never set the poll as whether people wanted to stay in our come out of the EU, I wanted to see whether they would like more or less political union.  I made one option for people who didn't want either and would rather we left.

How can you say the ones who voted for less political union want to stay, they will probably decide based on whether the Government can negotiate something that meets their concerns.

To answer your question on why I may be surprised by the number who voted to leave; it was because I didn't think so many would vote that way.   I guess I am allowed to be surprised by it


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## Foxholer (Jun 3, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			You're not wrong there, but its not parliament that will be deciding the outcome of the referendum. They can only hope to influence it.
		
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In a great many ways, that's a good thing! What 'Parliament decides' is so often simply what the Prime Minister decides, then sells to Cabinet and has the Whips push through! Perhaps not quite so easy here with such a small majority. Even arguing that a Party in power simply has a mandate to do whatever is in their Manifesto isn't an absolute given, as many will have picked the party in spite of some parts of the Manifesto that they don't like/want! 

@SILH. True to an extent, but as MetalMickie posted, you are denigrating the 'intelligence' of the electorate!



SocketRocket said:



			...
How can you say the ones who voted for less political union want to stay, they will probably decide based on whether the Government can negotiate something that meets their concerns.
...
		
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As I stated, the ONLY conclusion you can really make is about those that want to leave!

But you have answered your own question!  They (currently) don't 'want to leave', therefore (currently) either want or are prepared to stay!

And that's why it's 'not a great poll' - little can be gleaned from any of the results - except 1!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			You have answered your own question!
		
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I didn't ask one.  I rather pointed out the flaw in your reasoning.


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## Foxholer (Jun 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			I didn't ask one.  I rather pointed out the flaw in your reasoning.
		
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And your 'pointing out of the flaw' is likewise flawed - deliberately? But they certainly don't 'want to leave' currently do they!

That's what I posted in post 31 - not enough granularity!


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			As I stated, the ONLY conclusion you can really make is about those that want to leave!

But you have answered your own question!  They (currently) don't 'want to leave', therefore (currently) either want or are prepared to stay!
		
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Since you have edited your reply 

'They'  have only voted to the effect they 'don't want closer political union'.  This does not mean they (currently) don't want to leave or stay, it only means they 'don't want closer political union' 

Struth, you've edited it again.   Cant keep up with this.


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## Foxholer (Jun 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Since you have edited your reply 

'They'  have only voted to the effect they 'don't want closer political union'.  This does not mean they (currently) don't want to leave or stay, it only means they 'don't want closer political union' 

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Well, I was giving the poll credit for actually being able to conclude that those that want to leave will actually vote for that!

But if you are saying that even that option is suspect.....


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## Foxholer (Jun 3, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			As I stated, the ONLY conclusion you can really make is about those that want to leave!
		
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Actually, by your 'may change their mind after negotiations' logic, even those that want to leave (currently), could change their mind (doubtful imo) when the concessions are revealed!

So as a Poll....even less than 'not great'! then.


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## SocketRocket (Jun 3, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Well, I was giving the poll credit for actually being able to conclude that those that want to leave will actually vote for that!

But if you are saying that even that option is suspect..... 

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 *THE POLL WAS NOT ABOUT THE EU 'YES' OR 'NO' VOTE.  IT WAS ABOUT MORE OR LESS POLITICAL UNION!
*
Hope you get that,  if not I dont really give a Tosh!   Start your own poll if you have your own questions.


Maybe a MOD could kindly close this thread now as it has served it's purpose.

Thanks.


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## Foxholer (Jun 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



*THE POLL WAS NOT ABOUT THE EU 'YES' OR 'NO' VOTE.  IT WAS ABOUT MORE OR LESS POLITICAL UNION!
*
Hope you get that,  if not I dont really give a Tosh!   Start your own poll if you have your own questions.
		
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Yep! I got that the first time!

But still the vast majority of posts were simply about Being in or out of Europe/the Referendum!


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