# Club V1 Problems



## Swango1980 (Jul 28, 2021)

I joined a new club yesterday, and then played a round. Before the round, I signed in for a General Play round on their PSI Terminal. After the round, the club house was closed, so could not enter a score.

So, I went on to Today's Golf on howdidido. Once I linked myself to the club, I went to Score Entry. The "Casual Round" appeared, and under siad Signed in on PSI as expected. However, it would not let me click on anything to then enter a score. So, it will appear that I have No Returned to the club (I have e-mailed them to ensure they have my score and explain the issue). Furthermore, I have tried to connect myself to the club on the Club V1 Member Hub, but it currently says "Oops there is a problem". 

So, is anyone else finding there is a problem with Club V1 today / yesterday? Also, if a player was to sign in on PSI, must they enter score on PSI or can they use howdidido Today's Golf?


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## Imurg (Jul 28, 2021)

I think you have to enter scores through the same point as signing in..
So sign in through the terminal - you can't enter scores via your mobile..


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## Swango1980 (Jul 28, 2021)

Imurg said:



			I think you have to enter scores through the same point as signing in..
So sign in through the terminal - you can't enter scores via your mobile..
		
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OK, I'll remember that. It seems my new club closes the club house sometime between 5 and 9pm, so the terminal is no good for Signing In on if club house closed afterwards


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## wjemather (Jul 28, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I joined a new club yesterday, and then played a round. Before the round, I signed in for a General Play round on their PSI Terminal. After the round, the club house was closed, so could not enter a score.

So, I went on to Today's Golf on howdidido. Once I linked myself to the club, I went to Score Entry. The "Casual Round" appeared, and under siad Signed in on PSI as expected. However, it would not let me click on anything to then enter a score. So, it will appear that I have No Returned to the club (I have e-mailed them to ensure they have my score and explain the issue). Furthermore, I have tried to connect myself to the club on the Club V1 Member Hub, but it currently says "Oops there is a problem".

So, is anyone else finding there is a problem with Club V1 today / yesterday? Also, if a player was to sign in on PSI, must they enter score on PSI or can they use howdidido Today's Golf?
		
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I would have thought players should be able to pre-register and enter scores on PSI and/or HDID interchangeably (as they can with competition scores) as the systems are linked. It's possible your problem may only affect pre-registering & score entry at a secondary club?


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## Wildboy370 (Jul 28, 2021)

I have the Club V1 members app on my phone. I can sign in on that or the Terminal at the club and then enter scores on my app. I can also use the HDID on my iPad to do the same. Having the members app on phone is good as you can sign in on 1st Tee if you forget. Have you confirmed you old club have signed you off as have heard of this causing issues being in the system at two clubs because old one not signed you off.


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## Old Skier (Jul 28, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I joined a new club yesterday, and then played a round. Before the round, I signed in for a General Play round on their PSI Terminal. After the round, the club house was closed, so could not enter a score.

So, I went on to Today's Golf on howdidido. Once I linked myself to the club, I went to Score Entry. The "Casual Round" appeared, and under siad Signed in on PSI as expected. However, it would not let me click on anything to then enter a score. So, it will appear that I have No Returned to the club (I have e-mailed them to ensure they have my score and explain the issue). Furthermore, I have tried to connect myself to the club on the Club V1 Member Hub, but it currently says "Oops there is a problem".

So, is anyone else finding there is a problem with Club V1 today / yesterday? Also, if a player was to sign in on PSI, must they enter score on PSI or can they use howdidido Today's Golf?
		
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Just a quick question, are you sure that your club have the V1 members hub add on module We don’t but can still enter scores for casual rounds and comps through HDID.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 28, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Just a quick question, are you sure that your club have the V1 members hub add on module We don’t but can still enter scores for casual rounds and comps through HDID.
		
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New club does, yeah. Finally able to link up with it this afternoon.

The manager entered my score from yesterday due to Score Entry not working.

It is lovely being part of a members club with full time staff. Different world.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jul 29, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I joined a new club yesterday, and then played a round. Before the round, I signed in for a General Play round on their PSI Terminal. After the round, the club house was closed, so could not enter a score.

So, I went on to Today's Golf on howdidido. Once I linked myself to the club, I went to Score Entry. The "Casual Round" appeared, and under siad Signed in on PSI as expected. However, it would not let me click on anything to then enter a score. So, it will appear that I have No Returned to the club (I have e-mailed them to ensure they have my score and explain the issue). Furthermore, I have tried to connect myself to the club on the Club V1 Member Hub, but it currently says "Oops there is a problem".

So, is anyone else finding there is a problem with Club V1 today / yesterday? Also, if a player was to sign in on PSI, must they enter score on PSI or can they use howdidido Today's Golf?
		
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The issue is timing - you must register to play and enter the score on the same day. You can register on the PSI terminal or HowDidIDo and put the score in on either system but it must be by the cutoff time for the day.

The Handicap Secretary can add your score later but you can't.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 30, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



*The issue is timing - you must register to play and enter the score on the same day. *You can register on the PSI terminal or HowDidIDo and put the score in on either system but it must be by the cutoff time for the day.

The Handicap Secretary can add your score later but you can't.
		
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^^^this


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 30, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			New club does, yeah. Finally able to link up with it this afternoon.

The manager entered my score from yesterday due to Score Entry not working.

*It is lovely being part of a members club with full time staff. Different world*.
		
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I'm sure the *volunteers* at your previous club appreciate the sentiment


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## Swango1980 (Jul 30, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			The issue is timing - you must register to play and enter the score on the same day. You can register on the PSI terminal or HowDidIDo and put the score in on either system but it must be by the cutoff time for the day.

The Handicap Secretary can add your score later but you can't.
		
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I tried to enter the score on the same day. So, the issue was definitely not timing


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## Swango1980 (Jul 30, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			I'm sure the *volunteers* at your previous club appreciate the sentiment 

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I was one of those volunteers, I was handicap sec. And, as such, I know exactly how hard it has been without full time staff. The role was eating into my professional and personal life, especially with all the extra work in keeping on top of general play rounds. Had I worked at club full time, it would have been a breeze.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 30, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I tried to enter the score on the same day. So, the issue was definitely not timing
		
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location?


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## Swango1980 (Jul 30, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			location?
		
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Location of score entry was at home. However, it was via howdidido, not MyEG, so location has never been an issue before.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 30, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Location of score entry was at home. However, it was via howdidido, not MyEG, so location has never been an issue before.
		
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i know Scottish Golf are making it a requirement of licensing that apps have to be GPS enabled like the SG App is, so it could be they've added the upgrade?


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## Swango1980 (Jul 30, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			i know Scottish Golf are making it a requirement of licensing that apps have to be GPS enabled like the SG App is, so it could be they've added the upgrade?
		
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I doubt it, sure I would have heard about it. The MyEG App requires a player to be near the course to register, but not sure same applies to Score Entry. Not sure why a player would need to be near the course to enter score anyway? If they did and forgot to do so, or could not for whatever reason, it would then make it impossible for them to do so later in day when they get the chance.


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## rulefan (Jul 30, 2021)

EG are making a number of requests/demands of HDID/V1 to change/upgrade the licence.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 30, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I doubt it, sure I would have heard about it. The MyEG App requires a player to be near the course to register, but not sure same applies to Score Entry. Not sure why a player would need to be near the course to enter score anyway? If they did and forgot to do so, or could not for whatever reason, it would then make it impossible for them to do so later in day when they get the chance.
		
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We used HDID last year before the SG app came along, folks would play on a Sunday morning, by Monday night some still with no scores in. Now you can't do that.

When there were no Apps, did you take your card home and come back with it hours later? That's why.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 30, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			We used HDID last year before the SG app came along, folks would play on a Sunday morning, by Monday night some still with no scores in. Now you can't do that.

When there were no Apps, did you take your card home and come back with it hours later? That's why.
		
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Howdidido, again as far as I am aware, only allows Score Entry on the same day as the round is played. It just does not matter where you are when you enter that score. Clearly, if a player fails to do that, then it is a No Return and the Committee need to chase the player to get that score (which I had to do regularly as handicap secretary)

When there were no Apps, do you mean before WHS? Players would generally simply throw it in the box at the club after round, or may bring it home and submit it a few days later. There was no real issue with this, as there was no need for it to be entered before midnight. The only issue, of course, is if they subsequently played in a competition before handing in a supplementary score that would have given them a cut. But, given so few cards were really ever handed in back in those days, I never remember this being an issue. And, if it was, then it would need to be dealt with accordingly.

If you were talking about a competition pre WHS, then if a player took their card home it would be a No Return and DQ from the comp.

The issue with demanding the score be entered at the club is that, if the player is unable to (in a rush, internet connection down or poor, forgets, etc), then they will simply be unable to enter the score. That is going to cause a lot of headaches, with Committees having to constantly chase players for scores. If they can enter it at home, at least it gives them ample time to submit those scores before midnight.

The one advantage I can see of having to be near the course for both pre reg and score entry is that it should normally ensure players have done both correctly. Only having to be near the course to pre-reg means that a player could technically do this after their round, go home and enter their score 3 or 4 hours later. Anyone checking these after would be non the wiser, unless they actually knew when the player teed off.


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## rulefan (Jul 30, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Howdidido, again *as far as I am aware*, only allows Score Entry on the same day as the round is played.
		
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I see your bold words but can anyone else confirm it. I'm sure my wife entered a score the next day.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 30, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I see your bold words but can anyone else confirm it. I'm sure my wife entered a score the next day.
		
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I've not personally tried it (I always enter my score on the same day)

However, a number of members looked to have no returns after pre-registering, yet on the next day they signed in and entered a score straight after. It turns out they did this because they could not enter yesterday's score without signing in again


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## wjemather (Jul 30, 2021)

rulefan said:



			I see your bold words but can anyone else confirm it. I'm sure my wife entered a score the next day.
		
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I'm fairly sure HDID only allows score entry on the day for casual/gp rounds; however the score entry window for competitions is configured in ClubV1, so can be set to days later if so desired.


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## rulefan (Jul 30, 2021)

wjemather said:



			I'm fairly sure HDID only allows score entry on the day for casual/gp rounds; however the score entry window for competitions is configured in ClubV1, so can be set to days later if so desired.
		
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Thanks. My wife can't remember.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 31, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I've not personally tried it (I always enter my score on the same day)

However, a number of members looked to have no returns after pre-registering, yet on the next day they signed in and entered a score straight after. It turns out they did this because they could not enter yesterday's score without signing in again
		
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Last year before WHS you could enter scores the next day.


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## Banchory Buddha (Jul 31, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Howdidido, again as far as I am aware, only allows Score Entry on the same day as the round is played. It just does not matter where you are when you enter that score. Clearly, if a player fails to do that, then it is a No Return and the Committee need to chase the player to get that score (which I had to do regularly as handicap secretary)

When there were no Apps, do you mean before WHS? Players would generally simply throw it in the box at the club after round, or may bring it home and submit it a few days later. *There was no real issue with this,* as there was no need for it to be entered before midnight. The only issue, of course, is if they subsequently played in a competition before handing in a supplementary score that would have given them a cut. But, given so few cards were really ever handed in back in those days, I never remember this being an issue. And, if it was, then it would need to be dealt with accordingly.

If you were talking about a competition pre WHS, then if a player took their card home it would be a No Return and DQ from the comp.

The issue with demanding the score be entered at the club is that,* if the player is unable to (in a rush, internet connection down or poor, forgets, etc), then they will simply be unable to enter the score.* That is going to cause a lot of headaches, with Committees having to constantly chase players for scores. If they can enter it at home, at least it gives them ample time to submit those scores before midnight.

The one advantage I can see of having to be near the course for both pre reg and score entry is that it should normally ensure players have done both correctly. Only having to be near the course to pre-reg means that a player could technically do this after their round, go home and enter their score 3 or 4 hours later. Anyone checking these after would be non the wiser, unless they actually knew when the player teed off.
		
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Seriously? You had no issue with competitions remaining open for days while players decided whether they would bother their arse? That's literally a DQ for undue delay.

Second bold, then hand the card in and enter it on the clubhouse terminal. You've then highlighted exactly the issue if players *don't* present their scores immediately, and why geolocation is a good thing, as I said, which was exactly our experience last year.


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## Swango1980 (Jul 31, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Seriously? You had no issue with competitions remaining open for days while players decided whether they would bother their arse? That's literally a DQ for undue delay.

Second bold, then hand the card in and enter it on the clubhouse terminal. You've then highlighted exactly the issue if players *don't* present their scores immediately, and why geolocation is a good thing, as I said, which was exactly our experience last year.
		
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I am specifically talking about general play rounds, not competitions. 

Your second point was clearly not possible in my case. If you read back to my first post, club house was closed.


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## Banchory Buddha (Aug 5, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I am specifically talking about general play rounds, not competitions.

Your second point was clearly not possible in my case. If you read back to my first post, club house was closed.
		
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OK, but same thing, your score affects PCC, so of course people need to be forced to enter on the day, or too many will do as you do. How does the system work otherwise?


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## Swango1980 (Aug 5, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			OK, but same thing, your score affects PCC, so of course people need to be forced to enter on the day, or too many will do as you do. How does the system work otherwise?
		
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I think you are missing my point. My intention was to fully enter my scores on the same day. However, if you stop players entering scores anywhere except near the course, then you remove the opportunity for them to enter the score later in the day once they leave the course. Therefore, you are more likely to get MORE people not entering their score on the same day, not less. It also means you will get more people contacting the handicap secretary to enter their scores for them once they get home. Others will not, so you will put more pressure on the handicap sec contacting players who have NRed.

You basically remove a layer of flexibility for the player as soon as they can no longer enter their score anywhere that is not close to the course. Personally, I'd like to see the tech be set up to:


Allow Player to Sign In for round (I don't mind this being restricted to being near course, I guess it stops people signing in at home and never playing, though hopefully many out there would not de that pure cheating of the system)
Allow Player to enter their score after the round, in any location
Send notification reminders at certain times if they have signed in, but failed to return their score
I'd also like to see a Warning in the Club Systems when a score is manually entered by the club committee, but the player had already entered a score on the same day (especially if the hole scores generally tie up). This would stop duplicate entries where both the player and committee enter the same score twice. I know this should not happen if Committee properly check the score has already been entered. However, it is clear very many players at my new club have duplicate entries which could have been avoided by a simple safety net.


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## Old Skier (Aug 5, 2021)

Duplicate entry of scores is easily sorted, just write “Score Entered“ on the card.


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## rulefan (Aug 5, 2021)

Swango1980 said:




1) Allow Player to enter their score after the round, in any location
2) Send notification reminders at certain times if they have signed in, but failed to return their score


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1) I thought that V1/HDHD already provided that facility
2) Isn't there a report in V1 available for the committee?


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## Old Skier (Aug 5, 2021)

rulefan said:



			1) I thought that V1/HDHD already provided that facility
2) Isn't there a report in V1 available for the committee?
		
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1. Facility via PSI if home or HDID or EG app
2.  Yes


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## wjemather (Aug 5, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Duplicate entry of scores is easily sorted, just write “Score Entered“ on the card.
		
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This would not stop one of our members, who has entered the same score 3 times this week (twice on the same day). It's the second time he's managed to do this having entered one score 4 times over the course of a couple of weeks earlier this year.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 5, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Duplicate entry of scores is easily sorted, just write “Score Entered“ on the card.
		
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That is not fool proof. When I was handicap sec, not one player did that. If instructed, I'd imagine many would still not do it. Especially as many still don't include much more basic info like tees, date, etc


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## Swango1980 (Aug 5, 2021)

rulefan said:



			1) I thought that V1/HDHD already provided that facility
2) Isn't there a report in V1 available for the committee?
		
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1. It does, but my discussion previous to this was discussing whether or not this was useful (my argument it was)
2. It does, but the notification to the player reduces the number of No Returns the Committee need to chase up.


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## rulefan (Aug 5, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			2. It does, but the notification to the player reduces the number of No Returns the Committee need to chase up.
		
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Point taken


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## Banchory Buddha (Aug 8, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I think you are missing my point. My intention was to fully enter my scores on the same day. However, if you stop players entering scores anywhere except near the course, then you remove the opportunity for them to enter the score later in the day once they leave the course. Therefore, you are more likely to get MORE people not entering their score on the same day, not less. It also means you will get more people contacting the handicap secretary to enter their scores for them once they get home. Others will not, so you will put more pressure on the handicap sec contacting players who have NRed.

You basically remove a layer of flexibility for the player as soon as they can no longer enter their score anywhere that is not close to the course. Personally, I'd like to see the tech be set up to:


Allow Player to Sign In for round (I don't mind this being restricted to being near course, I guess it stops people signing in at home and never playing, though hopefully many out there would not de that pure cheating of the system)
Allow Player to enter their score after the round, in any location
Send notification reminders at certain times if they have signed in, but failed to return their score
I'd also like to see a Warning in the Club Systems when a score is manually entered by the club committee, but the player had already entered a score on the same day (especially if the hole scores generally tie up). This would stop duplicate entries where both the player and committee enter the same score twice. I know this should not happen if Committee properly check the score has already been entered. However, it is clear very many players at my new club have duplicate entries which could have been avoided by a simple safety net.
		
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No I get your point entirely.

As I've said, last year we used HDID, entry of scores from anywhere, it was a nightmare chasing down people who hadn;t entered a score and waiting for people to enter their scores.

This year we're on GPS enabled SG app, guess what, everyone enters their scores after their rounds and we haven't had an issue (other than the crappy SG app which wouldn;t be solved by a location change).

Why is this "flexibility" required? You finish your round, you submit your score, it's worked for hundreds of years, but now that you can do it from your phone you should hold up return of scores by being able to do it from home? I don't think so. In fact undue delay of returning scores is a Dq offence in itself.  Flexibility is the last thing needed here, we had a year of it, it was terrible.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 8, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			No I get your point entirely.

As I've said, last year we used HDID, entry of scores from anywhere, it was a nightmare chasing down people who hadn;t entered a score and waiting for people to enter their scores.

This year we're on GPS enabled SG app, guess what, everyone enters their scores after their rounds and we haven't had an issue (other than the crappy SG app which wouldn;t be solved by a location change).

Why is this "flexibility" required? You finish your round, you submit your score, it's worked for hundreds of years, but now that you can do it from your phone you should hold up return of scores by being able to do it from home? I don't think so. In fact undue delay of returning scores is a Dq offence in itself.  Flexibility is the last thing needed here, we had a year of it, it was terrible.
		
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You've just proved you've missed my point. You are talking about competitions. I am not. I'm talking about returning cards for handicap, particularly general play.

For competitions, committees should set specific deadlines to ensure prompt return or scores. 

What happens if a player finishes their round, no PSI available and no access to phone (maybe battery died or no internet connection). If only they could enter the score electronically at home (as they can on howdidido). Yet you wish to remove that possibility.


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## Banchory Buddha (Aug 8, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			You've just proved you've missed my point. You are talking about competitions. I am not. I'm talking about returning cards for handicap, particularly general play.

For competitions, committees should set specific deadlines to ensure prompt return or scores.

What happens if a player finishes their round, no PSI available and no access to phone (maybe battery died or no internet connection). If only they could enter the score electronically at home (as they can on howdidido). Yet you wish to remove that possibility.
		
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Sorry, you talked about "NR'd", how in any way can you NR a GP score? The handicap sec (me for instance) is not contacting anyone that gets a penalty score, if you can't  be bothered to follow the process, not my concern, it's not a competitive round and I'm not in the least worried about your penalty score. 


But, Yes, because you can't switch GPS off and on like that. And they have to enter by midnight, if folks couldn't do it for competitions, how on earth do you expect them to for GP?

Make it simple, you finish your round, you can't leave the site until your score is entered. There is nothing difficult or confusing about that.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 8, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Yes, because you can't switch GPS off and on like that. And they have to enter by midnight, if folks couldn't do it for competitions, how on earth do you expect them to for GP?

Make it simple, you finish your round, you can't leave the site until your score is entered. There is nothing difficult or confusing about that.
		
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Simple, yes. Too simple, and creating another hurdle for players and Committee, when players are unable to enter scores on site for technical reasons and Committee need to chase players for no returns, or respond to members needing their assistance.

An issue that clearly exists if you have read other posts on this forum. Allowing the player to post the score at home goes a long way to solving that issue. I never said anything about players inputting scores a day or more after the round, simply that they can enter score later that day. What is wrong with that?


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## Banchory Buddha (Aug 8, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Simple, yes. Too simple, and creating another hurdle for players and Committee[3], when players are unable to enter scores on site for technical reasons and Committee need to chase players for no returns[1], or respond to members needing their assistance.

An issue that clearly exists if you have read other posts on this forum. Allowing the player to post the score at home goes a long way to solving that issue. I never said anything about players inputting scores a day or more after the round, simply that they can enter score later that day. What is wrong with that[2]?
		
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[1] Again why would the committee be chasing any GP score not entered? I sure as hell don't.
[2] They forget. Last year was a nightmare when remote scoring was introduced, we DQ'd scores of folk who couldn't be bothered/forgot to enter a score by 7pm the NEXT day. 
[3] The opposite, allowing players to fill in their scores, effectively when they feel like it is creating another issue for the h'cap sec that simply doesn't need to be there

Yes technology breaks, our solution, you email us the card. Therefore on those rare occasions, there's a back up. Don't create another stress point to solve an issue of folks laziness


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## Swango1980 (Aug 8, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			[1] Again why would the committee be chasing any GP score not entered? I sure as hell don't.
[2] They forget. Last year was a nightmare when remote scoring was introduced, we DQ'd scores of folk who couldn't be bothered/forgot to enter a score by 7pm the NEXT day.
[3] The opposite, allowing players to fill in their scores, effectively when they feel like it is creating another issue for the h'cap sec that simply doesn't need to be there

Yes technology breaks, our solution, you email us the card. Therefore on those rare occasions, there's a back up. Don't create another stress point to solve an issue of folks laziness
		
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1. Because the Committee is responsible for chasing no returns, to try and ensure the score goes on the players handicap record. This will also lead to whatever disciplinary procedures that you have for repeat offenders who have no reasonable excuse.
2. They can just as easily forget to put in score immediately after round, especially for general play. Plus, the technical issues I have mentioned can also lead to player not immediately entering score.
3. What is the other issue? Who cares if they enter score 5 mins after round or 5 hours? As long as it is before midnight, handicap updated for next day.


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## wjemather (Aug 8, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			[1] Again why would the committee be chasing any GP score not entered? I sure as hell don't.
		
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Handicap committees must ensure players fulfil their responsibilities, which includes returning all pre-registered GP round scores.


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## Banchory Buddha (Aug 8, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Handicap committees must ensure players fulfil their responsibilities, which includes returning all pre-registered GP round scores.
		
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Nope, they get a penalty score from the system for not recording their score. There is no need for the HC to get involved. If someone keeps doing it then there is a time to get involved.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 8, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Nope, they get a penalty score from the system for not recording their score. There is no need for the HC to get involved. If someone keeps doing it then there is a time to get involved.
		
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Nope, the system does not give them a penalty score  (certainly not in England anyway). Not sure how it can, as the WHS manual requires different penalty scores to be applied for different scenarios. Takes a human to determine most appropriate one.


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## Banchory Buddha (Aug 8, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			1. Because the Committee is responsible for chasing no returns, to try and ensure the score goes on the players handicap record. This will also lead to whatever disciplinary procedures that you have for repeat offenders who have no reasonable excuse.
2. They can just as easily forget to put in score immediately after round, especially for general play. Plus, the technical issues I have mentioned can also lead to player not immediately entering score.
3. What is the other issue? Who cares if they enter score 5 mins after round or 5 hours? As long as it is before midnight, handicap updated for next day.
		
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1. Yup, in competitions, for GP scores players can suffer their penalty score, if they can;t be arsed, neither can I
2. Really? You're at the course, you've just finished your round, you registered for a GP score before you started. Hmm, there's something I should do now having scored all the way round, what would it be?  Nope, it's not coming to me?  [Wise up, you're being ridiculius to back up your stupid point]
3. Yup, who cares. Do it right away and then you won't have this petulant ranting to go through


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## Banchory Buddha (Aug 8, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Nope, the system does not give them a penalty score  (certainly not in England anyway). Not sure how it can, as the WHS manual requires different penalty scores to be applied for different scenarios. Takes a human to determine most appropriate one.
		
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Yes it does. Register for a GP score and you don't post it, you get a penalty score.


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## wjemather (Aug 8, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			Nope, they get a penalty score from the system for not recording their score. There is no need for the HC to get involved. If someone keeps doing it then there is a time to get involved.
		
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From CONGU's guidance, applicable throughout GB&I:
"G7.1b Applying a Penalty Score​These are intended for use when the score for a player is not returned (in whatever format of score return the Committee direct). However, *the Committee need to determine the reason for non-return* as the Penalty Score process is generally aimed at those who deliberately fail to return a score, or for those who persistently refuse to return scores when required.​The *Committee should make reasonable efforts to find the score* or, if not immediately available, attempt to identify the score of the player by other means (e.g. the marker score on another card)."​There is no difference between a competition round and a general play round in this process.


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## Banchory Buddha (Aug 8, 2021)

wjemather said:



			From CONGU's guidance, applicable throughout GB&I:
"G7.1b Applying a Penalty Score​These are intended for use when the score for a player is not returned (in whatever format of score return the Committee direct). However, *the Committee need to determine the reason for non-return* as the Penalty Score process is generally aimed at those who deliberately fail to return a score, or for those who persistently refuse to return scores when required.​The *Committee should make reasonable efforts to find the score* or, if not immediately available, attempt to identify the score of the player by other means (e.g. the marker score on another card)."​There is no difference between a competition round and a general play round in this process.
		
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I can assure you a penalty score is applied *automatically *overnight. The above is irrelevant, if someone starts a GP round and does not submit a score, they get a penalty score, we've had a couple. We don't have to take pro-active action.


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## wjemather (Aug 8, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			I can assure you a penalty score is applied *automatically *overnight. The above is irrelevant, if someone starts a GP round and does not submit a score, they get a penalty score, we've had a couple. We don't have to take pro-active action.
		
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Whether the SG system applies PS automatically is not the issue - I know it does (in my view it shouldn't as it pre-empts the reason for non-return). Rule 7.1b (and CONGU's guidance on it) still applies; if SG are advising otherwise, they are failing in their responsibilities by disregarding the rules and their own (via CONGU) advice. Handicap committees are also bound by other requirements of WHS (including #42). By ignoring this, you are also failing in your responsibilities.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 9, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			I can assure you a penalty score is applied *automatically *overnight. The above is irrelevant, if someone starts a GP round and does not submit a score, they get a penalty score, we've had a couple. We don't have to take pro-active action.
		
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The confusion here is that SG does it automatically. In England, it does not. I am in England, therefore Committee members need to chase the player.

As wjemether says, it is up to Committee to decide what that penalty score is. So, it appears the SG software ignores this advice. If a player fails to return a GP round, what penalty score does it give?


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## Banchory Buddha (Aug 9, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			The confusion here is that SG does it automatically. In England, it does not. I am in England, therefore Committee members need to chase the player.

As wjemether says, it is up to Committee to decide what that penalty score is. So, it appears the SG software ignores this advice. If a player fails to return a GP round,* what penalty score does it give*?
		
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From memory way up in the hundreds, I think it may be course rating +54 as 124 sticks in my memory.

I should clarify we've deleted a couple of penalty scores, when we've been made aware of the reasons for so doing, so we're not doing nothing, and if we have a repeat offender we will chase them up, but so far that's not been the case


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## Swango1980 (Aug 9, 2021)

Banchory Buddha said:



			From memory way up in the hundreds, I think it may be course rating +54 as 124 sticks in my memory.

I should clarify we've deleted a couple of penalty scores, when we've been made aware of the reasons for so doing, so we're not doing nothing, and if we have a repeat offender we will chase them up, but so far that's not been the case
		
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Interesting. Given that such a high penalty score (i.e. a score equal to a players worst in their last 20, not way up in the hundreds necessarily) is only recommended for a player who No Returns when the reason is they want to keep their handicap low. Most No Returns, I am guessing, are down to forgetfulness. The recommendation is to provide a penalty score that would be equivalent of them playing to their Index (which actually results in a small Index reduction a lot of the time, as this obviously ends up in their top 8, depending on what score they lose).

So, it seems to me that this automatic penalty score goes very much against the guidance in most cases.

Furthermore, I have no doubt there will be Committees who simply rely that the software is doing the right thing, and just leave it to it's own devices. It will be interesting if there is a situation out there where a player, wanting to keep a high handicap, simply does not return good scores. Sure, Committees need a slap on the wrist for not fulfilling their duties, but it goes to show that WHS requires Committees to be much more on the ball in terms of general play golf. A situation that would not have existed pre-WHS as scores only ever touched a players record once the Committee verified it was acceptable.


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## Old Skier (Aug 9, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Interesting. Given that such a high penalty score (i.e. a score equal to a players worst in their last 20, not way up in the hundreds necessarily) is only recommended for a player who No Returns when the reason is they want to keep their handicap low. Most No Returns, I am guessing, are down to forgetfulness. The recommendation is to provide a penalty score that would be equivalent of them playing to their Index (which actually results in a small Index reduction a lot of the time, as this obviously ends up in their top 8, depending on what score they lose).

So, it seems to me that this automatic penalty score goes very much against the guidance in most cases.

Furthermore, I have no doubt there will be Committees who simply rely that the software is doing the right thing, and just leave it to it's own devices. It will be interesting if there is a situation out there where a player, wanting to keep a high handicap, simply does not return good scores. Sure, Committees need a slap on the wrist for not fulfilling their duties, but it goes to show that WHS requires Committees to be much more on the ball in terms of general play golf. A situation that would not have existed pre-WHS as scores only ever touched a players record once the Committee verified it was acceptable.
		
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I really cannot believe any software gives such a screwed penalty that would result in someone's HC I going up at an alarming rate.

I think the poster may have this wrong however it is another authority so anything is possible.


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## Banchory Buddha (Aug 10, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I really cannot believe any software gives such a screwed penalty that would result in someone's HC I going up at an alarming rate.

I think the poster may have this wrong however it is another authority so anything is possible.
		
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Cheers mate 

I did have it wrong, it's 125 that they were given, not 124, score differential of 57.2. This is the last penalty score we had.


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