# The problem with golf ....



## Trojan615 (Jan 3, 2017)

Interesting points on the discussion about hogan / Nike folding on a us site....

_Unfortunately this is the direction the golf business/game is going. The game is too hard to master, too expensive for the middle class and takes too long to play for working people.._

Is this true ? 
Is it time for a major change in the way we play the game ( less clubs - cheaper) or less holes - quicker rounds ? Discuss


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## Crow (Jan 3, 2017)

Hard to master is one of it's attractions.

Like most things, how much you want to spend is down to the individual.

I like the fact that it takes 3 to 4 hours to play a round, I play for relaxation and enjoyment.


No need to change anything for me.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 3, 2017)

Trojan615 said:



			Interesting points on the discussion about hogan / Nike folding on a us site....

_Unfortunately this is the direction the golf business/game is going. The game is too hard to master, too expensive for the middle class and takes too long to play for working people.._

Is this true ? 
Is it time for a major change in the way we play the game ( less clubs - cheaper) or less holes - quicker rounds ? Discuss
		
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Don't see the need to change 

The game can be as cheap or as expensive as you want - you can prob get a full set of clubs for under Â£200 that will last years 

You can get cheap memberships and rounds of golf 

And there are many ways to play quicker rounds 

Any sport is hard to master hence why only the very best do master it


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## pauljames87 (Jan 3, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Don't see the need to change 

The game can be as cheap or as expensive as you want - you can prob get a full set of clubs for under Â£200 that will last years 

You can get cheap memberships and rounds of golf 

And there are many ways to play quicker rounds 

Any sport is hard to master hence why only the very best do master it
		
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doesnt have to be expensive , teeofftimes is full of offers.. my mate played 85 rounds last year he said he didnt pay more than Â£20 a round for the rounds out of the society 

we played today Â£16 for 18 holes plus breakfast

I enjoy the fact it takes 3-4 hours a round myself because I dont want to be home about 2 hours after ive left im going to relax and unwind


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## Face breaker (Jan 3, 2017)

I see where you're coming from but as has already been said 'golf clubs' and gear in general can be as cheap or as expensive as you want it to be, decent used 'brand name' clubs can be picked up on eBay for less than 200 notes (I picked up a set of 2yr old Speedblades t'other day for 106 smackers, yes you read that correct) and if your real savvy decent ones can be had for less than 100 notes, as for bags 'take your pick' the rest is all by the by...

Memberships are much the same as long as you're not too bothered about either travelling a few miles or the standard of the course, the higher the standard of course/club the more you're gonna pay, plenty of 'pay n plays' are cheap as chips, as for time constraints well once again you can play for as much or as little as you want and as many holes as you want at a time, nobody says you have to play all 18 every time... :thup:


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## duncan mackie (Jan 3, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Don't see the need to change 

The game can be as cheap or as expensive as you want - you can prob get a full set of clubs for under Â£200 that will last years 

You can get cheap memberships and rounds of golf 

And there are many ways to play quicker rounds 

Any sport is hard to master hence why only the very best do master it
		
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Eloquent - completely agree. At times its hard to discern whether the equipement and media (TV etc) drive, or are driven, by the underlying sport.


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## PhilTheFragger (Jan 3, 2017)

compare golf with Footy, lets say a decent championship team like Leeds 
Season tickets average at just under Â£500  which isnt too different to my current 5 day membership
or you can buy tickets for the match V Derby for between Â£25-38 which is a decent green fee
Ok you dont need any kit to watch footy, but you will buy a scarf and a shirt, and for the kid as well

You will also buy a pie  or a Bovril at HT

as for time, you need to be there at least 30 mins before kick off and you have to travel to the ground, plus
transport/parking costs and it will take you 20 minutes plus to get out at the end, even for a home game you are going to be out of the house for at least 3 possibly 4 hours if you have a jar afterwards.


So to summarise, there isnt that much to choose between Golf and watching footy in terms of cost and time spent away from ones humble abode


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## Tongo (Jan 3, 2017)

Think thats just an easy generalisation. I play after work on a Friday in the summer, normally paying no more than 20 quid for a round. Me and my dad get round in about 3 hours and the fact that the game is hard to master makes it all the more addictive. It is the hardest game i've played by some distance but easily the most addictive. 

Nothing needs to change.


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## rob_golf1 (Jan 3, 2017)

I would say some of these are the best things about golf.

As it has previously been outlined, golf is as expensive as you want! You can pick up sets for Â£99 if you shop around. I paid Â£15 for 18 holes on New Years Eve with a full English Breakfast! Can't complain with that at all and the course was great given the time of year.

Golf being a difficult sport to master is (personally) one of the reasons I love it. It makes me want to come back for more and get better each time I play.


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## davemc1 (Jan 3, 2017)

I'm not sure you'll get a balanced view from the forum on this subject. Obviously we're all golf nuts else we wouldn't be here. So our opinion generally speaking is we can't get enough of it.

I feel the answer may lie in your part time golfers. Some who only play a handful of times a year, be it in societies or corporates that take up most of the day.


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## 351DRIVER (Jan 3, 2017)

*


Crow said:



			Hard to master is one of it's attractions.    BANG ON....
		
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*


Crow said:



			Like most things, how much you want to spend is down to the individual.

I like the fact that it takes 3 to 4 hours to play a round, I play for relaxation and enjoyment.


No need to change anything for me.
		
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*
There is lifelong satisfaction in achieving a reasonable standard in something challenging making golf easy is the wrong way to go. the game used to be MUCH harder (I grew up with Persimmon()
*

It is very easy to pin popular labels on why golf is struggling

Too Expensive
Too Difficult

The reasons why golf is struggling are many and saying that middle class do not have the money whilst working class do not have the time is bizarre to say the least *The working class have the cash then?

My own view is a lot of loyally to clubs is being lost with all the discounts offered, earlier in the thread someone said his pal played 80 odd rounds, that is great, thing is though he might move house tomorrow, or change job etc and he would find it very easy to slip away from the game x this by millions of golfers being encouraged to seek out bargains (Which means do not commit to memberships) and the overall result is golfers are less likely to stick.   Golf would be ok if the new golfers could be retained better.

A quid a hole or whatever is insanely cheap an you can play golf for this, i do not buy that it is too expensive, Ebay means you can find a massive array of clubs for under 100 quid.  

Too difficult?  My opinion this is a synrome society is apparently promoting which is whiny pussy syndrome

Too little time?  People have more time than ever before, they just use it poorly, spending time on electronic gadgets


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## Reemul (Jan 3, 2017)

The problem is everyone is different. I am 45, 15 years a go I played 2 or 3 times a week, worked in retail  had 2 days off in the week and had no kids.

Now I have 2 kids and get weekends only off. I love my kids and spending time with them take a priority over doing stuff on my own, I know this won't last forever so want to make the most of it. My youngest plays football on Saturday and Sunday mornings and the eldest has golf lessons on a Saturday morning as well. 3 days out of 5 in the week they do swimming, soccer and after school stuff.

Getting the eldest into golf, he is 10 now means this summer we can go out together and the youngest is pretty useful as well so he can come if he wants to.

I want to play more golf, there is just not enough time, I also want time to watch more movies,read more books, have time with just the wife let alone play more golf. Busy busy busy. Cost is not too bad, but I don't belong to a club because apparently as I am not 25-40 I don't qualify for any sort of special membership yet some friends and family members who are in that bracket and earn more than me do. Â£1000 a year doesn't sound like much but it is if you can't play weekly.

I have just cancelled my phone contract and moved to a sim monthly and saved a fair bit which I am hoping to put towards a club membership but for me time and cost restricts how often I play and this restricts how good I can become at it. My brother in law now plays off 5 and plays across every weekend, he has a 2 year old little girl who he never sees, personally I wonder why he had a child as she doesn't seem to have a dad, well one to play with and go out with.

Life is a balance and unfortunately golf doesn't quite fit that balance, however one day it will, my father in law who is 69 and mother in law who is 65 have been playing for a year and love it, the fact they had 5 kids and 14 grandchildren is probably why they started so late, I hope to be a little younger.

So for some cost and time is an issue, those that have time and money probably already play it's how do you get those that don't to play if numbers are dropping.


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## Qwerty (Jan 3, 2017)

It isn't just golf that's in decline its most sports in general, Why? I can only think that people have far more options nowadays when It comes to spare time.

For me the difficulty is the attraction and I'm sure it's got to be the same for most who play the game, I can't honestly see how you could change it without changing it completely due to the H'cap system.

I don't and never have thought that there is a problem with golf.
It is what it is and personally I wouldn't change anything about it.


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## HawkeyeMS (Jan 3, 2017)

Crow said:



			Hard to master is one of it's attractions.

Like most things, how much you want to spend is down to the individual.

I like the fact that it takes 3 to 4 hours to play a round, I play for relaxation and enjoyment.


No need to change anything for me.
		
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What he said ^^^

If it was easier and shorter, I'd probably stop playing.


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## 351DRIVER (Jan 3, 2017)

How many play EA sports games but do not actually play the sports?

My view is the main issue golf has is that people are so conditioned to short distractions that eat their time that their mindset does not allow for 4 hours away from phones, messages, newsfeeds and the like... i know unemployed people that think they are busy, they are obviously not they just have a great capacity to waste time


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## Qwerty (Jan 3, 2017)

HawkeyeMS said:



			What he said ^^^

If it was easier and shorter, I'd probably stop playing.
		
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^^^^
This, Without a doubt!


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 3, 2017)

It's a sport that not even the best ever managed to totally master all of the time. That endless search for "the round" is what brings us all back, irrespective of handicap or standard. If it was easier or made quicker you'd find for every newbie it enticed you'd arguably (and in my opinion) lose 2-3 current golfers. It doesn't need to be expensive, there is a lot being done at many clubs to make it more inclusive and while there is work to be done it is moving in the right direction generally


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## pauljames87 (Jan 3, 2017)

351DRIVER said:



*
There is lifelong satisfaction in achieving a reasonable standard in something challenging making golf easy is the wrong way to go. the game used to be MUCH harder (I grew up with Persimmon()
*

It is very easy to pin popular labels on why golf is struggling

Too Expensive
Too Difficult

The reasons why golf is struggling are many and saying that middle class do not have the money whilst working class do not have the time is bizarre to say the least *The working class have the cash then?

*My own view is a lot of loyally to clubs is being lost with all the discounts offered, earlier in the thread someone said his pal played 80 odd rounds, that is great, thing is though he might move house tomorrow, or change job etc and he would find it very easy to slip away from the game x this by millions of golfers being encouraged to seek out bargains (Which means do not commit to memberships) and the overall result is golfers are less likely to stick.   Golf would be ok if the new golfers could be retained better.*

A quid a hole or whatever is insanely cheap an you can play golf for this, i do not buy that it is too expensive, Ebay means you can find a massive array of clubs for under 100 quid.  

Too difficult?  My opinion this is a synrome society is apparently promoting which is whiny pussy syndrome

Too little time?  People have more time than ever before, they just use it poorly, spending time on electronic gadgets
		
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I said to him once if the wife ever says to him cut down he could just join a club he said "that would bore the hell out of me, I love the challenge of new courses. Playing the same course all the time would bore me"

took him to my old club today.. par 72 he hit 82 playing off 10, good considering he never been there


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## MikeH (Jan 3, 2017)

very interesting thread with some well though provoking views

as many will know I have written several eds letters in the mag and contributed threads on here about the 'growth' (or rather the decline) of the game especially why new people aren't getting into golf in the numbers that we saw 10 or 20 years ago and why some people are drifting away from the game

In my view all the reasons mentioned in the OP ARE genuine factors that contribute to fewer people taking it up and indeed some people playing less/no longer playing

BUTâ€¦ as several posters have said two of the things that are quoted as limiting growth - the challenge of the game and the fact its a very pleasant 3-4 hours plus a bit of social either side - are actually reasons why we, as established, committed golfers love it!

however every stat or bit of research I see says the game is in significant decline when measured by the number of people actively playing/taking it up

I'm interested to hear some more views from forumers on why/what factors they think are behind the game not growing? and does it actually matter if headline participation numbers are in decline?


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## Old Skier (Jan 3, 2017)

Mike

i would be interested if your information is based on decline in golf membership or if it includes "what appears to me" a growth in the amount of society golf that goes on.

If it's a decrease in membership and an increase in society golf, I put a lot of that down to clubs. Around here, a lot of the time, it is cheaper to book in as a society than it is to use a county card.

IMO no society green fee deal should better the cost of using a county card and should cost more.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 3, 2017)

I was a member of a club for 2 years, just about played enough to make it worth it (at Â£14 a round as a members guest , Â£16 otherwise) it took a lot of rounds to make it worth it!

I jacked it in because I found myself playing the same course every week , and my mates would want to play elsewhere which I didnt want to do because I had a membership to use

Now I just PAYG, ironically today I went back to my old club for the first time since may 2015


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## 351DRIVER (Jan 3, 2017)

Golf is not struggling to attract new players, the problem is that golfers from 1st time golfer to lifelong player are likely to play less and 1st time golfers are less likely now to become 2nd and 3rd time golfers..

The USA in 2015 had over 2.2 million NEW golfers play golf, if half of those were retained the USA would not have any form of golf crisis, I know talking to golf clubs that a big own goal that clubs consistently achieve is bringing new golfers on a massive discount, this leads to

1.  They might play again but they expect discounts having paid 50% off they will not then pay full price
2.  They only played because of the discount and will not return so hardly worth the effort in attracting them
3.  They might play again but at the next place that offers a big discount

It is almost impossible to bring someone to a club at a huge discount then say next time you will be expected to pay double

There is the self fulfilling nature of the press too, everything you read is about golf in decline, struggling etc etc... a sport surrounded by constant negativity is hardly appealing..

Focus on the successes more than the failures and the game will be more appealing


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## MikeH (Jan 3, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Mike

i would be interested if your information is based on decline in golf membership or if it includes "what appears to me" a growth in the amount of society golf that goes on.

If it's a decrease in membership and an increase in society golf, I put a lot of that down to clubs. Around here, a lot of the time, it is cheaper to book in as a society than it is to use a county card.

IMO no society green fee deal should better the cost of using a county card and should cost more.
		
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hi OS
most data is centred around rounds played (a quarterly report that is a bit of an industry bible), active participants, club membership numbers
data is from governing bodies home unions, the leading research company - sports marketing surveys Inc, and commissioned studies by likes of Syngenta

i dont doubt that there have are a not insignificant number of club members who have given up membership to become nomadic golfers as it better fits their needs

interesting view on the county cards vs society rates 

i think the use of county cards is nowhere near where it could be - i think far too few members even know about their existence


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 3, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Mike

i would be interested if your information is based on decline in golf membership or if it includes "what appears to me" a growth in the amount of society golf that goes on.

If it's a decrease in membership and an increase in society golf, I put a lot of that down to clubs. Around here, a lot of the time, it is cheaper to book in as a society than it is to use a county card.

IMO no society green fee deal should better the cost of using a county card and should cost more.
		
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As someone who likes to use their County Card in principle I agree, the problem though is us County Card holders are already members elsewhere and when we visit we are unlikely to spend much in the shop or over the bar, Societies, they are hoping will make up the shortfall in green fees in spends in the shop and bar. 
Personally as already said most sports are in decline as most of the world is still in recession, it's ok saying you can make it cheap if you want to, but modern society just aint like that, how many of us genuinely shop at Aldi and Lidl and avoid brands or drive the cheapest car that will do what we need, a few will no doubt, but the truth is, todays culture is to be seen to fit an image.


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## Old Skier (Jan 3, 2017)

MikeH said:



			i think the use of county cards is nowhere near where it could be - i think far too few members even know about their existence
		
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Devon club members get them free as part of their affiliation.


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## MikeH (Jan 3, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Devon club members get them free as part of their affiliation.
		
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but do you not still have to apply for them?
also is this a new thing - i was a member at RND, as my home club for a few year, and didn't ever see anything about county card
in Hampshire we have to apply and pay Â£15


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 3, 2017)

MikeH said:



			but do you not still have to apply for them?
also is this a new thing - i was a member at RND, as my home club for a few year, and didn't ever see anything about county card
in Hampshire we have to apply and pay Â£15
		
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They are also free at our place - just pop into the office and they give you one , understand it was supposed to have at most counties but did hear a few weren't doing it


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 3, 2017)

MikeH said:



			but do you not still have to apply for them?
also is this a new thing - i was a member at RND, as my home club for a few year, and didn't ever see anything about county card
in Hampshire we have to apply and pay Â£15
		
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Same here in Durham, Â£15 and you have to apply.


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## Old Skier (Jan 3, 2017)

MikeH said:



			but do you not still have to apply for them?
also is this a new thing - i was a member at RND, as my home club for a few year, and didn't ever see anything about county card
in Hampshire we have to apply and pay Â£15
		
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Started beginning of 2016 and you do have to apply but was well advertised by county and take up in our club was high. Added benefit was the card has your CDH No on it.

I think the decision was really based on "what does the average golfer get for their affiliate" argument. Perhaps the same argument should be directed at E.G.


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## Blue in Munich (Jan 3, 2017)

MikeH said:



			but do you not still have to apply for them?
also is this a new thing - i was a member at RND, as my home club for a few year, and didn't ever see anything about county card
in Hampshire we have to apply and pay Â£15
		
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Not at my place Mike, just pop into the pro shop & pick it up. 

Interesting to see your comments that the game is in serious decline, yet at my club there is a not inconsequential joining fee and a waiting list which doesn't seem to equate.  So what are we doing right, or what are the others doing wrong?


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## MikeH (Jan 3, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Started beginning of 2016 and you do have to apply but was well advertised by county and take up in our club was high. Added benefit was the card has your CDH No on it.
		
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free is great but even at Â£15 is a bargain - I just think theres a lot of club members who dont even know about them. no stats to back that up, just a hunch!


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## Old Skier (Jan 3, 2017)

MikeH said:



			free is great but even at Â£15 is a bargain - I just think theres a lot of club members who dont even know about them. no stats to back that up, just a hunch!
		
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Like I said earlier with there appearing to be little insentive to get them if you can book a society deal for less than the benefit of a county card.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 3, 2017)

Blue in Munich said:



			Not at my place Mike, just pop into the pro shop & pick it up. 

Interesting to see your comments that the game is in serious decline, yet at my club there is a not inconsequential joining fee and a waiting list which doesn't seem to equate.  So what are we doing right, or what are the others doing wrong?
		
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Same at ours - in regards the county card and having a waiting list with a joining fee 

We have also had 13 people put in membership forms in the last 10 days alone - we seem to be attracting new members including new to golf via an academy membership . Also our Society quota is already full for next year


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## fundy (Jan 3, 2017)

devils advocate but why should county rate be lower than a society rate? 

why should being a member at club A get you a cheaper greenfee at club B than someone who isnt a member elsewhere?


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## Old Skier (Jan 3, 2017)

fundy said:



			devils advocate but why should county rate be lower than a society rate? 

why should being a member at club A get you a cheaper greenfee at club B than someone who isnt a member elsewhere?
		
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Perhaps if the benefit from being a club member was better than being just a nomad society member more might decide to join clubs.

Just a thought, no more.


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## FairwayDodger (Jan 3, 2017)

Along with the practical considerations mentioned, golf still has a serious image problem. The non-golfing public generally view it as a sport for sexist old fuddy-duddys and that puts many people off. 

Clubs need to drag themselves into the 21st century, do away with anachronistic rules and practices and become more attractive places for younger adults and families to spend their precious free time.


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## GeeJay (Jan 3, 2017)

We would all like golf to be cheaper, but I think that pay-and-play is actually killing golf as clubs race to the bottom of the pricing game. Without active members that pay full membership fees, clubs will fail and courses will close. Nett result being that the game of golf will most likely become less accessible and more expensive.


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## GB72 (Jan 3, 2017)

Having just given up my membership I can say that it was purely down to stuffy, outdated attitudes, clubs run by the over 60s for the over 60s extolling the worst of middle class pretentions. Love playing golf but felt totally out of place in the last 2 clubs I was a member of and became an involuntary car park golfer. The club loses a scary percentage of new members under 50 but the older ones who run it seem to not care.

Not sure what I am going to do now, one club nearby may suit me better, another is nearer but is a resort course but can get membership and gym use for about what I pay now. Other option is to join the local 9 hole course and play other courses at cheap rates. Not sure what I am going to do but I am going to take my time before deciding what is next.


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## backwoodsman (Jan 3, 2017)

Ok, as  MikeH asked the question, I'll bite...

What does it matter if participation in golf declines? If it is declining, does it matter what the reason is? Why do we need to keep numbers up? Why is it so imperative to get kids & young families involved? There will always be some people wanting to play, and whilst there are people wanting to play, there will be courses for them to play on. Perhaps not as many as now, but enough. Supply & demand and all that. Some clubs will go to the wall but surely you you only need enough clubs for the golfers there are ?

The regular mantra on here is "it's only a past-time or hobby"  - so what does it matter if it goes the way of the dodo?

Ok, I know you can lob in the argument of jobs etc but in the end, if people aren't playing golf, they'll be doing something else - and whatever that something else is will need servicing.

Harsh? Perhaps. But if golf came to an end it would hardly be the end of civilisation as we know it. Ok, for some of us it would be, but you know what I mean. I want to play golf for the rest of my days but if no-one is playing in 50 years time, will it really matter?


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## Sweep (Jan 4, 2017)

It seems to me there are two issues here. Club membership and participation in golf. The two are obviously linked but not inexorably. I am sure it's true that the more people that play the game, the more people join clubs. However this assumption may well be becoming out dated as more and more golfers become "nomads". 
There are many reasons why individual golfers become nomads but the vast majority can be traced back to the fault of the golf industry itself. Clubs themselves are practically begging their members to become nomads by committing the cardinal sin of any industry. That of devaluing it's own product.
In 2012 a study compared golf availability in 1990 against the same in 2012. The study looked at the cost of a round without a member at members clubs in 1990 and in 2012 and the level of membership subscriptions at the same clubs in the same periods.
The study found that in 1990 the cost of a round without a member was around Â£20. The average membership subscription was Â£250. In 2012 the average cost of a round without a member was around Â£22 and the average subscription was around Â£900. So you can see that due to declining numbers, clubs have taken the bait of thinking that the course costs the same to run if golfers play the course or not, so we may as well let nomads play cheaply and take their money. They saw pay and play as extra revenue which became vital revenue. Members have been burdened with all increases in costs over a 22 year period and none of these increases have been imposed on those who cherry pick. The key finding of the study was that in 1990, if you wanted to play regular golf, you had to join a club. It wasn't financially viable to do otherwise. That is certainly not the case today. Golf is cheap and the clubs have made it falsely cheap for non members. How each of us see this will, I suspect, largely depend on whether we are ourselves members or nomads. Nevertheless, every single one of us has a vested interest in ensuring the clubs exist to play, either as a member or a nomad.

As for participation, the golf industry needs to stop hankering after the halcyon days of the golf boom of the mid eighties. It was a phenomenon that won't be repeated. We cannot go on continually comparing the state of the industry today to the very best of times. Times have changed. The traditional golf club is going and will be replaced through evolution with a more flexible membership, more relaxed, family oriented "experience". How each individual club handles (or otherwise) this evolution will be key to their well being. It's a big problem for them. They can't just throw out the baby with the bath water and say change all subscription categories in one go as they must ensure they continue to bring in their break even level of income. They can't offer flexible memberships that all their full members will want to convert to, in case it results in not meeting that income level. Neither can they for example just allow jeans in the lounge because it's likely the majority of today's members don't want that. But things will evolve and the clubs must manage this at the correct pace for their own clientele. It's not easy. And if this wasn't enough, this isn't even the club's biggest problem. Today's golden age of retirees (often the biggest age group of a club) aren't going to be around forever and those coming behind them aren't going to have the same amount of expendable income. Just imagine your club without the retirees and you might get a glimpse of the ticking time bomb affecting practically every golf club. This could lead us back to where we were in the 1950's where golf participation returns to being an elitist pastime. If that becomes the case, participation numbers almost become irrelevant.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 4, 2017)

I will add the controversial comment 

One big reason "could be" - the lack of golf on terrestrial telly 

Right now every single golf event is on a Sky that is viewed by the minority - the only people imo watching golf on Sky are golfers - Sky may produce the program's better with the extended budget but the only people that will pay to watch golf will be golfers - if you aren't a golf fan you won't pay money to watch it. So how will the young child etc who doesn't know much about golf get to watch it to see if he likes what he sees ? If the sport isn't going to the wide audience then imo it's going to be hard for people to grab an interest in it - I reckon if you look at participation numbers on a number of sports that moved to Sky over the year you could see a decrease in people participating? Where as a number of Olympic Sports have seen an increase in people participating- Hockey , Cycling , Gymnastics 

**Disclaimer - i have no figures to back it up - it's just a theory that could be wildly wrong**


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## Imurg (Jan 4, 2017)

Golf takes time
Golf is hard
Those are the facts of the modern game
Shortening courses or making them easier could attract more people into the game butnwill, at the same time, alienate many established players so numbers are unlikely to change much.
What is required is more 9 hole courses in addition to the established 18 holers..
That will satisfy the established golfer and the new arrivals.
At Aylesbury Park, they used to have an open-air practice ground/range.
If you saw 10 people on it a week it was a good week!
They dug it up and designed a short par 3 course - and I mean short!
Shortest hole is 54 yards, the longest 95.
In the first 3 years they made more money from the par 3 course than they did from pay and players on the main course...
Unfortunately, HS2 has resulted, over the last 3-4 years, in a decline in the upkeep of both courses, the 9 holer suffering more due to the need to keep the main course as good as possible for the members.
But in its day, the short course was as busy as the main course. Societies used to play the short course, have lunch and then play the main course - a bit of fun before the main event.
Wycombe Heights has a very decent par 3 course and many older members play that in preference to the, admittedly, very hilly main course.
Build more 9 holers
Do deals with schools to get the kids in
Relax dress codes a little. Let people wear golf kit if they want but don't enforce it if they don't.
Let people have fun without strict rules.
Once they have caught the bug, get them coaching and onto the main course.

Leave current golf as it is - there are plenty who play and don't want or feel the need to change.
Bring in the lower level of play for those wanting a quick fix - even build more target ranges like TopGolf - make it fun and some will graduate to the real thing.


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2017)

EG and the Devon Union are our biggest obstacle when it comes to promoting golf in our area as they refuse to support clubs without club pros with any funding.  We used to hold 3 open days a year which produced results but with costs we are now having to reduce down to one.

We pay the same affiliation fees as other clubs but have little or no support from the games authorities.


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## Crazyface (Jan 4, 2017)

PhilTheFragger said:



			compare golf with Footy, lets say a decent championship team like Leeds 
Season tickets average at just under Â£500  which isnt too different to my current 5 day membership
or you can buy tickets for the match V Derby for between Â£25-38 which is a decent green fee
Ok you dont need any kit to watch footy, but you will buy a scarf and a shirt, and for the kid as well

You will also buy a pie  or a Bovril at HT

as for time, you need to be there at least 30 mins before kick off and you have to travel to the ground, plus
transport/parking costs and it will take you 20 minutes plus to get out at the end, even for a home game you are going to be out of the house for at least 3 possibly 4 hours if you have a jar afterwards.


So to summarise, there isnt that much to choose between Golf and watching footy in terms of cost and time spent away from ones humble abode
		
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You are correct, but....footie is crazy popular due to it being promoted on TV. Golf isn't because it isn't getting the TV ads to back it, because , lets face it, it's not as exciting as footie. No one is going to run ads showing the camaraderie that golfers have. The hiss taking. The laughter as you watch another ball sail off to lord knows where etc etc


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## Crazyface (Jan 4, 2017)

"Build more 9 holers"

They are everywhere. There are two 9 holers on every course.


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## Capella (Jan 4, 2017)

The fact that it is hard and that it takes so much time and effort to learn is what sets golf apart from other games/sports. It probably means that golf is never going to be a sport for everyone or for the mass market. But does that mean that it has to change? I don't think so. 

It would be very hard for me to take up figure skating, for example. For one thing the next ice rink is some ways away and secondly I am about as elegant as a drunk elephant when you put me on skates. So it definitely is not a sport that I would take up. Does that mean that figure skating has to change, so that more hopeless people like me can have a go at it and companies like Nike or Adidas or Puma can sell more skates? 

I understand that an industry has to grow to be sustainable, but I don't like to see golf as an industry. I like to see golf as a game and a sport. That's what was there first. If people want to make money off golf, they have to adapt to the game as it is. The industry has to bend to accomodate the game, not the other way round. If it can't do that and still make a profit, then maybe it has outlived itself and has to go back to being a niche market instead of an industry again. 

That said, there might be a place for new, faster, easier games which are inspired by golf. Stuff like TopGolf can be great fun for a night out with friends. I wouldn't mind more of that. But as an addition to golf as it is, not as a replacement, please.


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## guest100718 (Jan 4, 2017)

Its slow( often to slow), run by old blokes in blazers for old blokes in blazers, stupid dress code rules. Has a poor image among non golfers, time consuming, exspensive, takes a fair bit of commitment to get even half decent, daft car parks,  reccomended then 2nd'd then interviews! Stuck in the past.


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## Slab (Jan 4, 2017)

Been wondering what to contribute to this thread basically prompted because some manufactures are struggling to make as much money as they wanted to out of us & does that mean golf has a problem, but just because one commenter mentioned it I donâ€™t think the difficulty of golf as a game or the duration it takes to play a round are the reasons Nike is stopping making gear 

Using the earlier example so what if some companies go the way of the Dodo 
(& by the way the Dodo has never been more commercially successful since its extinction & itâ€™s name is known worldwide! ) 

So is it a better question to ask, Do Nike have a problem? (insert any other struggling manufactures name)

Golf (as a business or a sport) isnâ€™t perfect and many clubs/courses have their issues thatâ€™ll impact and influence their membership and revenue... but having one or two less Â£400 drivers on the shelf in the pro-shop is not one of them


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## Old Skier (Jan 4, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			Its slow( often to slow), run by old blokes in blazers for old blokes in blazers, stupid dress code rules. Has a poor image among non golfers, time consuming, exspensive, takes a fair bit of commitment to get even half decent, daft car parks,  reccomended then 2nd'd then interviews! Stuck in the past.
		
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Unfortunately, the new blokes in jeans only want to play and many refuse to take part in any of the running of a club.  Perhaps one of the problems is that to many just want to moan about it and use any excuse not to get involved.  Its a bit like football, you cannot have a game without officials no matter how poor the officials are.

Id give up my post tomorrow if someone younger wanted to have it.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 4, 2017)

Participation in sport is dwindling as a whole including grass roots football, rugby and cricket. Certainly in the case of football, it isn't a case of it not being available on main stream telly so I think the whole golf not being shown is not a contributory factor. Like it or not, golf is a niche sport. It always has been, way back in the days, perhaps not so far back in time, when clubs had waiting lists, most still needed you to be proposed and seconded and there was a joining fee. It still is a niche sport, despite the increased media profile the likes of Woods, Spieth, McIlroy and the Ryder Cup has given it in the last few years.

Golf could help itself, and many clubs are still potentially shooting themselves in the foot regarding access to play for visitors, the cost of green fees, even utilising teetimes or other online booking schemes and at times the welcomes afforded. Members aren't always treated much better and there has to be a shift towards a more open and welcoming atmosphere in a lot of clubs, particularly in terms of dress codes, to allow people (many of whom may be non-golfers) to still use the clubhouse for a driink/food while waiting for spouses, children etc.

If golf is in decline, is that actually necessarily a bad thing? What about the Darwinian survival of the fittest and perhaps those, not well managed, not prepared to changed and those not really bothered (definitely know a couple of them that seem to let the world pass them by - and not just the really famous names) will close and disappear. Is that actually as bad as it sounds? There are plenty of golf courses to go round in most areas and so by reducing the number of courses, and those that survive being more proactive in recruiting (and retaining) new members then surely, memberships will rise and those clubs will begin to thrive.

I am a firm advocate of pay and play. This is essential for the nomad and those wanting to try the game without forking out huge amounts on green fees at private clubs. However, with some of these being council run (Downshire in Bracknell may be going out to third party ownership in 2018) and with leisure budgets being trimmed, can these exist in their current format? Even those owned by the likes of Crown Golf etc are in danger (Blue Mountain proving that nothing is certain) if they cannot turn a profit and so are still reliant on regular traffic. Some of these do have clubs attached and so membership would be available for a fraction (usually) of the cost of a private club, with discounted green fees then due. Some clubs seem to be getting it and offering a range of flexible memberships, which potential members can buy into based on their planned level of use. I know several that offer a bronze, silver and gold schemes where the bronze offers the cheapest joining fees, but the lowest number of tokens to redeem against green fees, going up to a more expensive gold version. Membership is far more transient than it use it be and it has to be an area clubs are more pro-active in recognising. 

Manufacturers have a part to play too. There has to be access to cheap, but not inferior, gear and brands like Benross and MD golf have led the way, but it's time the big names look at this too. It may be a simplistic approach, but surely there will be bigger demand, for low cost high unit sold gear, than a driver costing Â£500. Yes there are bargains to be had by shopping around, but as a newbie, who has the knowledge of what they need or what suits, where these first level sets would be far more appealing and prevent expensive mistakes that would do little for the confidence of a new golfer and fuel their desire to persevere at an already difficult past time

Perhaps I'm in a minority here but I don't think we're anywhere near pushing the panic button. Numbers may be dwindling, but I'd be interested to find out where we are in terms of active golfers (members of clubs and nomads) from say 1983 when I started playing and now? Has it really changed that much and are we still perhaps "blinkered" by the boom of the late 90's and early 00's. Golf in 1983 seemed to be doing ok and I think it's doing ok in 2017 providing it takes itself for what it is and not what it thinks it should be


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## Sweep (Jan 4, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			Its slow( often to slow), run by old blokes in blazers for old blokes in blazers, stupid dress code rules. Has a poor image among non golfers, time consuming, exspensive, takes a fair bit of commitment to get even half decent, daft car parks,  reccomended then 2nd'd then interviews! Stuck in the past.
		
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I agree the game is run by old blokes in blazers. It's a criticism we hear a lot. However they don't run it for old blokes in blazers. They run the game in its entirety from the R&A to club level for everyone to play. If younger people have a problem with that, then they need to step forward, but as the old blokes are most often volunteers this isn't likely to happen anytime soon. It isn't a crime to volunteer and it isn't a crime to be old or indeed wear a blazer - or are you suggesting some kind of dress code? &#128512;
The alternative is that the clubs start paying people to fulfil roles currently run by volunteers. That will mean clubs lose their culture as members running the club for members and it becoming a less of a club and more of a service providing facility which will add massively to the cost.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 4, 2017)

Trojan615 said:



_The game is too hard to master, too expensive for the middle class and takes too long to play for working people.._

Is this true ? 
Is it time for a major change in the way we play the game ( less clubs - cheaper) or less holes - quicker rounds ? Discuss
		
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Really don't agree with the quote above. People have been playing golf for hundreds of years and the equipment now is so much easier to use than even just a few years ago. Golf doesn't need to be (and isn't) expensive in relative terms. People choose to smoke/drink etc and find the money for that so if they want to play golf as well I'm sure they will find the funds. As for time, again it is a lifestyle choice as to how people choose to spend their time. If they prefer to spend it with the family that's fine, their choice but I don't want my weekend curtailed to 9 holes because a minority of people don't have the time for 18.


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## Qwerty (Jan 4, 2017)

I don't see a problem with accessibility, Golf is out there for anyone that wants to play it, Most towns have a muni,Driving ranges etc. 
A problem a do see is that society has changed in that a lot of people want everything on a plate/instant etc. 
Golf isn't like that, from the outset it takes a little time and commitment. I can imagine its viewed as just too much effort for most.


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## badgermat (Jan 4, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I don't want my weekend curtailed to 9 holes because a minority of people don't have the time for 18.
		
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I don't think anyone is suggesting that the traditional 18 hole game should be changed, just that if we want to attract more players perhaps we should be thinking about more appealing "gateway" variants.

If more clubs added par 3 courses, for example, they might start encouraging beginners instead of intimidating them out of the game.

bm


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## guest100718 (Jan 4, 2017)

I played in a charity golf day a while back and one of our group was asked to leave the course as he wasnt wearing the correct socks! I have heard members bark at younger guys for their shirts being untucked. I got moaned at for wearing my cap in the bar.  
Such petty stuff but it does little to dispel the stuffy image that golf has.

Or Perhaps golf has had its hayday and the delcine is inexorable


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## Sweep (Jan 4, 2017)

Capella said:



			The fact that it is hard and that it takes so much time and effort to learn is what sets golf apart from other games/sports. It probably means that golf is never going to be a sport for everyone or for the mass market. But does that mean that it has to change? I don't think so. 

It would be very hard for me to take up figure skating, for example. For one thing the next ice rink is some ways away and secondly I am about as elegant as a drunk elephant when you put me on skates. So it definitely is not a sport that I would take up. Does that mean that figure skating has to change, so that more hopeless people like me can have a go at it and companies like Nike or Adidas or Puma can sell more skates? 

I understand that an industry has to grow to be sustainable, but I don't like to see golf as an industry. I like to see golf as a game and a sport. That's what was there first. If people want to make money off golf, they have to adapt to the game as it is. The industry has to bend to accomodate the game, not the other way round. If it can't do that and still make a profit, then maybe it has outlived itself and has to go back to being a niche market instead of an industry again. 

That said, there might be a place for new, faster, easier games which are inspired by golf. Stuff like TopGolf can be great fun for a night out with friends. I wouldn't mind more of that. But as an addition to golf as it is, not as a replacement, please.
		
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Great post. I agree with all of this, except the part about TopGolf, which is the industry trying to change the game to suit the industry's needs.


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## Snelly (Jan 4, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			I got moaned at for wearing my cap in the bar.
		
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Quite right too. Gentlemen do not wear hats indoors.


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## Hobbit (Jan 4, 2017)

Golf in the UK has a number of factors leading to dwindling numbers. Poor image is often quoted but is it really a valid reason? The further north you go the less up itself it is as a past time. But even that is unfair. I'm on my 12th or 13th or 14th club across GB & Ireland. None of them have been particularly snobbish, although some have had antiquated rules. Is it cost? Tracking the trend from 2006 through the financial crash clearly suggests its a major factor. Is it time? Families probably do more together than ever before, which limits "me time" for prospective golfers.

Two things spring to mind. How welcoming a golf club is to a family out for a meal, or even just a bit of craic with Friends. I've been to a few rugby clubs at tea time on a Saturday, and they've been bouncing with families. Chicken nuggets and dino burgers flying out of the kitchen. The atmosphere was fantastic.

And the second thing is historical. What led to the massive surge in golf in the mid/late 80's? Courses being built, queues from 5 in the morning to book tee times. Something led to generating that level of interest. In my opinion it was the number of high profile golfers on the European Tour. Langer, Lyle, Faldo, Woosnam, Ballesteros. There wasn't the TV coverage back then apart from a few cameras at a few events and then the Open coverage. If the European Tour doesn't entice its best players to stay, and doesn't have high profile events in Europe, what will happen? Is taking an event to China or India actually beneficial to the Tour?


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## guest100718 (Jan 4, 2017)

Snelly said:



			Quite right too. Gentlemen do not wear hats indoors.
		
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.... And this proves my point..... I had forgot I had it on and a simple request to remove it would have been fine. Instead a snotty blazer storming over and pointing out my error as if I have just commited some act of treason...


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## Beezerk (Jan 4, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I've been to a few rugby clubs at tea time on a Saturday, and they've been bouncing with families. Chicken nuggets and dino burgers flying out of the kitchen. The atmosphere was fantastic.
		
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Good point, I won't go into detail but my club is a joke when it comes to catering, plus they do very little to promote it. The events the committee arrange are all for the whitewash brigade and they wonder why bar takings are so dramatically down.

I also remember when I first joined this forum, I mentioned being surprised at how little clubs do to attract new members and even retain current ones. No incentives, no decent discounts or loyalty rewards etc. It seems they are a business run by people with no business experience, seemingly doing everything "on the hoof" for want of a better phrase.


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## MikeH (Jan 4, 2017)

badgermat said:



			I don't think anyone is suggesting that the traditional 18 hole game should be changed, just that if we want to attract more players perhaps we should be thinking about more appealing "gateway" variants.

If more clubs added par 3 courses, for example, they might start encouraging beginners instead of intimidating them out of the game.

bm
		
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totally agree with these sentiments. I think as 'established golfers' we often forget how hard golf is to start with! Get people enjoying success sooner - be it putting or par 3 and you'll get them hooked sooner and then over time I think they'll be more likely to graduate to the established full course 18 hole format of the game


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## pauljames87 (Jan 4, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			I played in a charity golf day a while back and one of our group was asked to leave the course as he wasnt wearing the correct socks! I have heard members bark at younger guys for their shirts being untucked. I got moaned at for wearing my cap in the bar.  
Such petty stuff but it does little to dispel the stuffy image that golf has.



Or Perhaps golf has had its hayday and the delcine is inexorable
		
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we have a chunky guy who plays in our society always getting told off for an untucked shirt even tho tucked in clearly doesn't suit his build

course near me made my mate buy white socks once in the summer. He was wearing black with shorts. He didn't mind it was just way they spoke to him in the shop 

I've taken to wearing white socks all summer and if anyone has an issue I have black socks in my bag that I just put on over the white ones


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## Slab (Jan 4, 2017)

Beezerk said:



			Good point, I won't go into detail but my club is a joke when it comes to catering, plus they do very little to promote it. The events the committee arrange are all for the whitewash brigade and they wonder why bar takings are so dramatically down.
*
I also remember when I first joined this forum, I mentioned being surprised at how little clubs do to attract new members and even retain current ones. No incentives, no decent discounts or loyalty rewards etc. It seems they are a business run by people with no business experience, seemingly doing everything "on the hoof" for want of a better phrase.*

Click to expand...

When you add in everything else its a lot for any committee to take on

I wonder if its the model of a 'members golf club' itself that's perhaps unsuited for modern golf and what players want from a golf club (not all members clubs obviously as there will be those that are well served by their members/committee)


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## GB72 (Jan 4, 2017)

Lot of very interesting points on here that are worth commenting on. 
I think the exodus of golfers to the US does play a big part. Certainly when I was younger, the highlight was being able to watch your sporting idols play live, nothing like it and in those days players used to interact with fans before and after the game. Now golf has, so far as marketing and promotion are concerned, become a US product for most of the year, kids are not going to form that same bond and are not going to gain the same incentive to take part in the sport. Look at the latest â€˜big thingâ€™ in European golf, Beef. He is off to the US until the PGA at Wentworth and if that goes well, the odds would be short on a more permanent move. That cannot be good for bringing people into the game. 
The point about families and clubhouse atmosphere is also important. Unlike decades ago, people are looking to spend more time with the family and not use a golf club as a place to hide away. That said, many clubs I know still remain very anti having a family friendly atmosphere where everyone can relax with a drink and a meal after the golfer has finished a round. Certainly at my club, the clubhouse seems to even dislike the idea of members having more than a post round drink. Nothing to keep them there, no sport to watch (even golf when it was free to air), a constant hushed and reverent atmosphere that is oh so proper but oh so unwelcoming and oh so boring. 
There is also mention of the younger generation taking the reigns and helping run the club. Never going to happen at my place. Captain and Vice Captain picked from a bottomless pit of members in the same clique, other clique members voted into positions on the committees and then if someone with a reformist attitude does get voted in their ideas are shot down in flames. Speaking to a committee member on new years day who arranged a meeting last year to put together a list of proposals to modernise the club. Every one was blocked in committee and the agenda for the meeting this year is identical to last year as nothing was ever done. 
What I do not agree with is tampering with the basic game or the idea that cost is an issue. I find it ironic that manufacturers state cost as a bar to entry yet keep upping the cost of clubs year on year. Membership fees have been pretty stable but club costs have gone up massively in the 10 years I have been playing. 
My biggest belief is that the bar in increased participation is, in many cases, due to golf clubs. Lip service is paid to expanding the appeal but clubs that I have been involved in have a core of key members who do not want families in the clubhouse, do not want more people on the course and really want to maintain the image of golf club membership that they knew as kids. It is all about ego, prestige and exclusivity and not about the greater good of the game going forward and there are members who will stick with that view until the gates of their club close and it finally has some impact on them.


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## Alex1975 (Jan 4, 2017)

I remember when I first sat in a golf club bar years ago after my first round (or so) and looking at the men in there. On the ride home I remarked to my buddy that it seemed that it was a room full on men avoiding their wife and children. 

I probably have not thought about that comment very much in the following 15+ years but I know from my own experience in the last 5 and a half years that I love being a father, how we bring children up now is very very different to how I was brought up, children are included in everything. We invest time in them in a huge way to prepare them for modern highly communicative relationship driven life and for me it is very much the meaning of life. I personally get a huge amount from it and as a result I don't want to be spending my very limited time away from my family. This has seen my standard significantly diminish and as a result I am even less compelled to plough time into it. Is this now something I will revisit when my little one takes an interest or when I retire?! Just a thought.

The other glaringly obvious thing and we see it all the time on here is: Golf is not at all cool and the old guard want to make sure it stays uncool as they want to keep it EXACTLY the way it is. By the time all the golf clubs are closed these people will be dead so it does not matter to them.

Failure to move with the times kills any and every business.


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## Imurg (Jan 4, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			"Build more 9 holers"

They are everywhere. There are two 9 holers on every course.
		
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And they can be quite intimidating for beginners 
Plus, how is a beginner going to cope with a 160 yard carry over water or a 530 yard par 5 with on all down one side..
It's like skiing. You have the easy nursery slopes for beginners, building up to the Black slopes for the experts....Could a beginner handle that..?
Put a complete novice on the first at a Sunningdale or similar and you'll never see them on a course again.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 4, 2017)

Lots of comments on here about different types of club and the people they attract. I think there is plenty of scope for them all to coexist. I like being a member of a 'fuddy duddy' members club with it's dress code, rules, standards etc. Personally, a proprietary club isn't for me, I like to see familiar faces when I walk into the clubhouse not a public facility with different people every time. But that type of set up suits a lot of people so it's pretty simple really, pick the type of club that suits your needs.


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## Qwerty (Jan 4, 2017)

I hate any form of snobbery with a passion and I can honestly say the last time I saw anything along these lines was some clown asking me to tuck my shirt in at a club in Bolton about 12 years ago. 

I play a lot of courses and have done for 16 yrs +, some highly regarded clubs..and I just don't see it nowadays. Been a member of quite a few clubs also.

I can imagine it being rife 20+ years ago but for me Snobbery/ Stuffy attitudes etc on the whole just aren't there anymore in the NW where I play most of my golf.
I'd actually say most clubs are extremely welcoming nowadays.


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## londonlewis (Jan 4, 2017)

davemc1 said:



			I feel the answer may lie in your part time golfers. Some who only play a handful of times a year, be it in societies or corporates that take up most of the day.
		
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Really good point. 
Two of my mates took up golf about 8 years ago. They played frequently and were buoyed by their scores coming down. They lost interest when they realised they had plateaued. They now only play once or twice a year with me. I am not 100% sure if either of them really enjoy it anymore. 

The other reason for their lack of desire to play is the amount of time it takes. They lead busy life styles, both have a child and struggle to justify fitting in a round of golf due to the time commitment away from their families.


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## londonlewis (Jan 4, 2017)

351DRIVER said:



*
There is lifelong satisfaction in achieving a reasonable standard in something challenging making golf easy is the wrong way to go. the game used to be MUCH harder (I grew up with Persimmon()
*

It is very easy to pin popular labels on why golf is struggling

Too Expensive
Too Difficult

The reasons why golf is struggling are many and saying that middle class do not have the money whilst working class do not have the time is bizarre to say the least *The working class have the cash then?

My own view is a lot of loyally to clubs is being lost with all the discounts offered, earlier in the thread someone said his pal played 80 odd rounds, that is great, thing is though he might move house tomorrow, or change job etc and he would find it very easy to slip away from the game x this by millions of golfers being encouraged to seek out bargains (Which means do not commit to memberships) and the overall result is golfers are less likely to stick.   Golf would be ok if the new golfers could be retained better.

A quid a hole or whatever is insanely cheap an you can play golf for this, i do not buy that it is too expensive, Ebay means you can find a massive array of clubs for under 100 quid.  

Too difficult?  My opinion this is a synrome society is apparently promoting which is whiny pussy syndrome

Too little time?  People have more time than ever before, they just use it poorly, spending time on electronic gadgets
		
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Not sure if this has already been pointed out as I'm only on page 2 but it said 'working people' not 'working class'


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## Snelly (Jan 4, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Lots of comments on here about different types of club and the people they attract. I think there is plenty of scope for them all to coexist. I like being a member of a 'fuddy duddy' members club with it's dress code, rules, standards etc. Personally, a proprietary club isn't for me, I like to see familiar faces when I walk into the clubhouse not a public facility with different people every time. But that type of set up suits a lot of people so it's pretty simple really, pick the type of club that suits your needs.
		
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My thoughts precisely.  Every peg finds a hole, but no, that would be far too easy and smacks of common sense.  Far better to sound off on an internet forum arguing for wholesale change across the board.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 4, 2017)

duncan mackie said:



			Eloquent - completely agree. At times its hard to discern whether the equipement and media (TV etc) drive, or are driven, by the underlying sport.
		
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Though is there an underlying problem with the cost of the gear in the context of the sort of sports gear individuals want to have and more importantly be seen to have?    Indeed why do individuals play the sports or partake in the leisure activities they do these days.  How much is to do with 'this is me - this is what I do (can afford to do) in my leisure time...'

Is there a feeling (in the 'above average income' and 'better off' especially) that only 'the best' will do.  That folks taking up and playing a sport don't want to be seen to have cheap, second hand or old gear?   

So for example - if I want to take up tennis or golf I can look on Amazon and get a top of the line Roger Federer Pro Staff racket for Â£219.  And spending that I have pretty much the best kit that money can buy.  Yes I can buy a Wilson Enforcer racket for Â£27.99 to start with - and as a starter that will probably do me.  But I want to play 'decent' equipment - and preferably 'good' and top brands - and with tennis I can have that - it is affordable if I just want to give it a go.  But can I say the same about golf gear?  I don't think I can.

Is that where golf has a problem with gear?  Many, if not most, players taking up or beginning with the game just don't want to buy cheap, second hand or old clubs.  And they want to wear such as Galvin Green - because they either expect or have seen - that that is what golfers wear - and they don't want to look 'the poor man' or 'out of place'.

I appreciate that there is an element of cynicism towards the attitude of folks these days - but I am not sure my cynicism is unfounded or baseless.


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## chip barm (Jan 4, 2017)

my first passion is motorcycle racing. in britain in the mid 90's you'd get five blokes and a dog watching a grand prix. now you're getting near 100,000 people attending on their own bikes and in europe you could double that figure easily. sports go through phases i think. the people that attend or play sports don't really care how popular it is. they do it because they love it. it's a hobby. an interest. i took up golf six months ago. not for any particular reason. i just liked the idea of it. now i really love the game and if i haven't got a round booked to look forward to, i get a bit fed up. i'm always looking to play. for now i'm happy paying and playing on deals as it gets me round lots of different courses. when i find one in the north west i really like the feel of, i'd consider becoming a member.


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## 351DRIVER (Jan 4, 2017)

If this forum reflects new golfers experiences then it is easy to see why some people try once and do not come back

Rules
Cliques
People who know best simply because they have been around longer
Etc

You have a few members who go out of there way to wind new people up (I am not naming them but it is patently obvious) if this is how they act when new golfers arrive then I can see why golfers would not return


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 4, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Lots of comments on here about different types of club and the people they attract. I think there is plenty of scope for them all to coexist. I like being a member of a 'fuddy duddy' members club with it's dress code, rules, standards etc. Personally, a proprietary club isn't for me, I like to see familiar faces when I walk into the clubhouse not a public facility with different people every time. But that type of set up suits a lot of people so it's pretty simple really, pick the type of club that suits your needs.
		
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To be fair though Gordon, the problem isn't that Club when they're financially stable, it's when they struggle and need income to survive, they then find it dificult to find the balance between encouraging new members and income and retaining the status quo.
Wholeheartedly agree there is a type that suits all and long may that choice continue.


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## londonlewis (Jan 4, 2017)

Crazyface said:



			You are correct, but....footie is crazy popular due to it being promoted on TV. Golf isn't because it isn't getting the TV ads to back it, because , lets face it, it's not as exciting as footie. No one is going to run ads showing the camaraderie that golfers have. The hiss taking. The laughter as you watch another ball sail off to lord knows where etc etc
		
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Football and golf are such different sports though, can we really compare the two? 

Pretty much every kid plays football at some point in the first 10 years of their lives. 
The same can't be said about golf. 
Football is a team sport where you can play with as few as 2 people or as many as 22, on the street, in a park, against a wall or on a pitch. It can be free to play with jumpers for goal posts and one ball. You can play it in the school break. 
Golf is nothing like football in this regard. 

Football is arguably a better spectator sport for those that haven't played the sport for years or have maybe never really played the sport. 
Golf is often only really of interest to those that play it or have grown up in a household where it is watched frequently. 

In football, people follow teams. They have a passion for the team they support and want to watch that team play. Occasionally they may enjoy watching specific players but it is actually the affinity to the team that draws them in. 
Golf - you don't support a team unless it is the Ryder Cup or something equivalent. And it is incredibly rare that people support one individual (there have been obvious exceptions like Seve, Nicklaus, Player, Tiger etc...) but on the whole people don't turn out to watch an individual, it is more to do with enjoying the sport. 

I suppose a question is; is football popular because it is on the TV or is it constantly on the TV because it is popular. My instinct tells me the latter is more correct.


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## Robobum (Jan 4, 2017)

The problem with golf ....is people trying to find a problem with golf


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## londonlewis (Jan 4, 2017)

Robobum said:



			The problem with golf ....is people trying to find a problem with golf
		
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There might be something in this... 

I am never a fan of hearing how the hole should be made larger because putting is so difficult and it would speed up the game. I don't think this is a problem in golf. It's not supposed to be easy and if your putting is making you take an extra 2 hours to play, you have problems that won't be solved by bigger holes.


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## guest100718 (Jan 4, 2017)

351DRIVER said:



			If this forum reflects new golfers experiences then it is easy to see why some people try once and do not come back

Rules
Cliques
People who know best simply because they have been around longer
Etc

You have a few members who go out of there way to wind new people up (I am not naming them but it is patently obvious) if this is how they act when new golfers arrive then I can see why golfers would not return
		
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I could not agree more.


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## guest100718 (Jan 4, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			There might be something in this... 

I am never a fan of hearing how the hole should be made larger because putting is so difficult and it would speed up the game. I don't think this is a problem in golf. It's not supposed to be easy and if your putting is making you take an extra 2 hours to play, you have problems that won't be solved by bigger holes.
		
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memership is down, clubs are going bust.. yeah its all good. 
you are correct though, a bigger hole wont make it eaier for beginners, nit much fun if your on the green for 10...


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 4, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			clubs are going bust.. yeah its all good.
		
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See I don't see that as a problem per se. If clubs are struggling to attract members, and aren't offering a pleasant on and off course experience why should they survive. They are a business at the end of the day and need to be run properly as one. I think it then forces the remainder to up their game. 

However that said, there does also need to be entry level facilities, whether that's a local pay and play, par three courses (which seem to be attached to a number of P&Ps locally - Hoebridge, Sandown Park etc) or golf will fail to attract the next generation and that will become a problem.


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## shun_naka (Jan 4, 2017)

My two cents thrown in here as someone a couple of years new to the game. Aside from the cost, a golf club is a hugely intimidating place for someone who wasn't brought up with one or has had any real experience of one.
Walking in seeing signs about all these rules (trainers in clubhouse, jackets in clubhouse etc) I've not really got a clue what allowed and what isn't. I'm usually in, pay for the round (pay by play) and out again onto the course. There's no real welcome (unless you know someone) and a few clubs I've enquired about need a member or two to sponsor your membership - impossible if you're brand new to the game. Once you're out you're also very self conscious about what you're doing out there, never mind how you're playing.

IMO clubs need to modernise. They can keep their history and show it off, but the generation that runs them seem to come from the generation where clubs where for the social elite, they seem to want to keep it that way...in doing so ignoring new, younger players of the game like myself.


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## USER1999 (Jan 4, 2017)

Why is golf difficult? Surely it is the easiest sport to take up? You don't need to be fit, young, athletically built, strong, or any other attribute to other sports. Heck, you don't even need to be good at it to compete. Complete garbage, we will give you a handicap so you are on a level playing field. Try taking up tennis. Or squash. Or any other sport that isn't darts or poker. Golf is easy. It just is. Any other sport, and as a beginner, you get gubbed.


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## Canmore (Jan 4, 2017)

murphthemog said:



			Why is golf difficult? Surely it is the easiest sport to take up? You don't need to be fit, young, athletically built, strong, or any other attribute to other sports. Heck, you don't even need to be good at it to compete. Complete garbage, we will give you a handicap so you are on a level playing field. Try taking up tennis. Or squash. Or any other sport that isn't darts or poker. Golf is easy. It just is. Any other sport, and as a beginner, you get gubbed.
		
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Tennis is a much easier sport to learn - the court is fixed, learn the basic strokes and positioning and you can have a decent game

Also you can buy a top of the range racket for 60 quid, which you could use for years.  I play at a decent level and have used the same racket for over 10 years, until recently when I bought a heavily discounted racket for 10 quid.  How many of use the same clubs for 10 years!


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## Canmore (Jan 4, 2017)

The problem with golf is peoples expectations....Golfers belong to many tribes - pay and players, proprietary club members, exclusive club members, ordinary club members etc etc

The market caters for all in each of the above categories - those clubs who both don't adapt to their core markets expectation and maintain a decent course s will inevitably fail.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 4, 2017)

Felix_G said:



			My two cents thrown in here as someone a couple of years new to the game. Aside from the cost, a golf club is a hugely intimidating place for someone who wasn't brought up with one or has had any real experience of one.
Walking in seeing signs about all these rules (trainers in clubhouse, jackets in clubhouse etc) I've not really got a clue what allowed and what isn't. I'm usually in, pay for the round (pay by play) and out again onto the course. There's no real welcome (unless you know someone) and a few clubs I've enquired about need a member or two to sponsor your membership - impossible if you're brand new to the game. Once you're out you're also very self conscious about what you're doing out there, never mind how you're playing.

IMO clubs need to modernise. They can keep their history and show it off, but the generation that runs them seem to come from the generation where clubs where for the social elite, they seem to want to keep it that way...in doing so ignoring new, younger players of the game like myself.
		
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very good point

friend of mine plays off 4, retired officer from the army. Works for us now senior manager.. new to the area wants to join a good club round here

money not an issue Â£3k fee and the subs yearly or whatever it was he had

had to write a letter begging to join as he was new to area and wanted to set roots here but obviously didn't have a member to sponsor him because he only lived here a year

shouldnt need to do that if your of a good level so know and respect the game plus have the cash to actually join. Why should you need further hoops? Thought membership numbers were a problem 

by the by this is the same club that had a go at another mate of mine for the wrong colour socks


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## Sweep (Jan 5, 2017)

pauljames87 said:



			very good point

friend of mine plays off 4, retired officer from the army. Works for us now senior manager.. new to the area wants to join a good club round here

money not an issue Â£3k fee and the subs yearly or whatever it was he had

had to write a letter begging to join as he was new to area and wanted to set roots here but obviously didn't have a member to sponsor him because he only lived here a year

shouldnt need to do that if your of a good level so know and respect the game plus have the cash to actually join. Why should you need further hoops? Thought membership numbers were a problem 

by the by this is the same club that had a go at another mate of mine for the wrong colour socks
		
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As others have said, there are clubs and courses for everyone. Clearly this is a club that is not struggling for members. It's their club so their rules and as long as they don't need members nothing will change and we have to ask, why should it? If they start to struggle and don't adapt the club will die.
You could look at their stance as a marketing strategy. Quite often people covet things they can't have more than things that are freely available. Whilst we may applaud more relaxed clubs, at the same time we should accept that there are those who want to join a club exactly because of their traditional values. .


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## delc (Jan 5, 2017)

pauljames87 said:



			I said to him once if the wife ever says to him cut down he could just join a club he said "that would bore the hell out of me, I love the challenge of new courses. Playing the same course all the time would bore me"

took him to my old club today.. par 72 he hit 82 playing off 10, good considering he never been there
		
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I am a member of one of the better courses in my area and I don't get tired of playing it. I also play in team matches against other clubs, so I get to play other courses for about the cost of the meals that follow them. The other good thing of being a member of a golf club is the like-minded friends you can make


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## Robobum (Jan 5, 2017)

delc said:



			I am a member of one of the better courses in my area and I don't get tired of playing it. I also play in team matches against other clubs, so I get to play other courses for about the cost of the meals that follow them. *The other good thing of being a member of a golf club is the like-minded friends you can make* 

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Now there's a scary thought!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 5, 2017)

pauljames87 said:



			very good point

friend of mine plays off 4, retired officer from the army. Works for us now senior manager.. new to the area wants to join a good club round here

money not an issue Â£3k fee and the subs yearly or whatever it was he had

*had to write a letter begging to join as he was new to area and wanted to set roots here but obviously didn't have a member to sponsor him because he only lived here a year

shouldnt need to do that if your of a good level so know and respect the game plus have the cash to actually join. Why should you need further hoops? Thought membership numbers were a problem 
*
by the by this is the same club that had a go at another mate of mine for the wrong colour socks
		
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Unless he was trying to join somewhere like Sunningdale I think you are exaggerating slightly? There is an extremely small number of clubs where you have to 'jump through hoops' to join. Even if you don't know a member, the vast majority of clubs will simply accept a letter requesting to join or you download a form off the club website. Joining a top club is pretty painless, you just have to follow a simple procedure. Apply....have an interview......playing in round....pay your subs.....job done.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Unless he was trying to join somewhere like Sunningdale I think you are exaggerating slightly? There is an extremely small number of clubs where you have to 'jump through hoops' to join. Even if you don't know a member, the vast majority of clubs will simply accept a letter requesting to join or you download a form off the club website. Joining a top club is pretty painless, you just have to follow a simple procedure. Apply....have an interview......playing in round....pay your subs.....job done.
		
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no thats what he had to do, and apart from the word "begging" your post is almost the same as what I said he did? Apply (in the form of a letter, begging) , interview (in which he mentioned himself more) play a round (didnt mention that bit) pay subs (said that)


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 5, 2017)

pauljames87 said:



			no thats what he had to do, and apart from the word "begging" your post is almost the same as what I said he did? Apply (in the form of a letter, begging) , interview (in which he mentioned himself more) play a round (didnt mention that bit) pay subs (said that)
		
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Pretty simple process so what is the problem? Has he now joined somewhere?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2017)

pauljames87 said:



			no thats what he had to do, and apart from the word "begging" your post is almost the same as what I said he did? Apply (in the form of a letter, begging) , interview (in which he mentioned himself more) play a round (didnt mention that bit) pay subs (said that)
		
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To apply to a club you simple fill out the membership form request - not send a "begging letter" - some clubs may request a "pen picture" of who you are but again it's not a begging letter.

Which club is this you are talking about ? Or area


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## USER1999 (Jan 5, 2017)

Canmore said:



			Tennis is a much easier sport to learn - the court is fixed, learn the basic strokes and positioning and you can have a decent game

Also you can buy a top of the range racket for 60 quid, which you could use for years.  I play at a decent level and have used the same racket for over 10 years, until recently when I bought a heavily discounted racket for 10 quid.  How many of use the same clubs for 10 years!
		
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And when you play, as a  beginner, you lose. Every time. You also need to be fit, able, etc.


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## Coffey (Jan 5, 2017)

I have recently picked the game up, coming into my 3rd season.

The first 'club' i joined is very very different to the one I am at now.

The first labels itself as a center rather than a club and that shines through. No community and very very rude people on and off the course, no welcome in the pro shop etc. In saying that, it was a good place to join as my first as it allowed me to learn the game without any serious clubhouse rules and entry requirements.

The second club I joined is completely different. I played one round there and had so many members coming up and asking if i was a visitor and how I was finding it and if I had any issues to let them know. Was even welcomed into the clubhouse for a drink after my round. I joined this club a few months later and it was very easy to get into. Filled in membership form and attended a chat with one of the committee who ran through the 'rules' and how everything worked. Was all very laid back and relaxed. 

When playing everyone has been so friendly and inviting. I've gotten to know the so many people and after being there for one season I am playing in a winter league and next year's captain has asked me to play in the club comps.

The difference between the two clubs is extraordinary. I had no idea it would be like that and was very nervous joining at the start as I had an impression that it would be very strict etc. I think the members made my decision to join very easy. That first round I played sold it to me as they were so welcoming and friendly


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## Crazyface (Jan 5, 2017)

Imurg said:



			And they can be quite intimidating for beginners 
Plus, how is a beginner going to cope with a 160 yard carry over water or a 530 yard par 5 with on all down one side..
It's like skiing. You have the easy nursery slopes for beginners, building up to the Black slopes for the experts....Could a beginner handle that..?
Put a complete novice on the first at a Sunningdale or similar and you'll never see them on a course again.
		
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Not all are like that though.


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## lukeysafc100 (Jan 5, 2017)

For me the best part of this sport is that it cannot be mastered!! 
Perhaps the prices could get better and the cost of starting could be cheaper - but what people forget is that the game is about swinging a club at ball to get it in a hole! it doesn't have to be 7000 yards, 3-5 hours long! So many different formats! Problem is only events is 72 hole strokeplay on the TV and the coverage isn't as wide spread in the UK!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2017)

One major problem with golf is that to the less knowledgeable or casual watcher of golf on TV, golf can appear completely baffling and, frankly, tedious and boring.  I myself struggle watching snippets of golf on TV if I have not been watching from the start or don't know, or are particularly interested in, the key participants.  It seems to me to be a notoriously difficult, if not impossible, sport for non-golfer TV viewers just to dip into.  

And so why would such casual TV viewers think of giving such a dull and unfathomable sport a go?  There has to be something that attracts folk to give it a go - at basically minimal, or indeed no, cost.  Decent clubs, balls, lessons, mentoring etc. supplied f.o.c.  A difficult bullet to bite.


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## patricks148 (Jan 5, 2017)

people want everything too easy and feel they are entitled to something for nothing.

golf is a difficult game that takes time and effort, something most of society can't be bothered with today.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2017)

patricks148 said:



			people want everything too easy and feel they are entitled to something for nothing.

golf is a difficult game that takes time and effort, something most of society can't be bothered with today.
		
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Spot on Sir!  Not enough immediate success or even gratification.


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## Coffey (Jan 5, 2017)

When I am ever asked if I play any sports and I tell them I play golf. The one common response is 'I tried that once but it was too frustrating and gave it up'. Which is what I find so addictive about golf. I love going and practicing and trying to beat my previous score or playing brilliant shots (doesn't happen often). Ofc I get frustrated and annoyed but I wouldn't want to be doing anything else. I feel like there isn't much you can change about the game as it is a very very hard game to master. One thing that can be changed is getting more people involved and addicted to the sport.


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## Radbourne2010 (Jan 5, 2017)

There are plenty of problems with Golf attributed to those who manage it, those who market it & those of us who play it. To compound matters the equipment element is a significant cost for the ordinary hard working average salaried worker if looking for top end branded sticks, bats & accessories. 

Personally, I saw golf as a fun 'sport' played with mates who made up Societies based around other sports clubs (Football, cricket, hockey, etc.) & company golf days. I never once thought about it as a competitive sport until I was too old to play contact sport to any decent level. After joining a local Private Members club I realised what I'd missed out on all these years. 

I joined my club specifically to play competitive Medal & Matchplay golf. In the process I met fellow members who have become close friends & also been introduced to 100's of other like-minded people around the country whilst playing in competition events like Mid-Amateur Tour alongside social based meets such as this Forum & other Society based golf. 

If you want a quick 9 holes after work to relax with mates but aren't interested in Medals, etc. join a local club with this in mind & buy a 2nd hand set of clubs for Â£250. No harm done. If you want to play the GM Top 100 Courses before you die with Â£3K's worth of equipment in the boot of your car, that's also good. Or if you simply want to pitch up somewhere having booked online for Â£15 for a Twilight round somewhere 30-40 times a year that's also fine.

Like life, golf's what you make of it not what it makes of you. Enjoy it while it lasts, as we all know too well we're not around forever... :cheers:


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## IanM (Jan 5, 2017)

I agree... The problem with golf is that work and the British Climate get in the way too often!


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## DRW (Jan 5, 2017)

Once you know about golf and have played it and wish to play it, then time and money and inclination  are probably the three biggest problems with golf. All of which you can not solve imho, what you need is more people trying it.

Most of the clients who have come on my golf days are not members of a club or even play on a regular basis due to the above.

I think it would be great if it could be 'pushed' at schools so at least all children get a taste of it at an early age, surely that would increase numbers playing(either as members or even irregularly) but can ever see it happening, which is a shame.


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## Canmore (Jan 5, 2017)

Radbourne2010 said:



			There are plenty of problems with Golf attributed to those who manage it, those who market it & those of us who play it. To compound matters the equipment element is a significant cost for the ordinary hard working average salaried worker if looking for top end branded sticks, bats & accessories. 

Personally, I saw golf as a fun 'sport' played with mates who made up Societies based around other sports clubs (Football, cricket, hockey, etc.) & company golf days. I never once thought about it as a competitive sport until I was too old to play contact sport to any decent level. After joining a local Private Members club I realised what I'd missed out on all these years. 

I joined my club specifically to play competitive Medal & Matchplay golf. In the process I met fellow members who have become close friends & also been introduced to 100's of other like-minded people around the country whilst playing in competition events like Mid-Amateur Tour alongside social based meets such as this Forum & other Society based golf. 

If you want a quick 9 holes after work to relax with mates but aren't interested in Medals, etc. join a local club with this in mind & buy a 2nd hand set of clubs for Â£250. No harm done. If you want to play the GM Top 100 Courses before you die with Â£3K's worth of equipment in the boot of your car, that's also good. Or if you simply want to pitch up somewhere having booked online for Â£15 for a Twilight round somewhere 30-40 times a year that's also fine.

Like life, golf's what you make of it not what it makes of you. Enjoy it while it lasts, as we all know too well we're not around forever... :cheers:
		
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Completely agree - something for everyone - golf is what you make it to be


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			To apply to a club you simple fill out the membership form request - not send a "begging letter" - some clubs may request a "pen picture" of who you are but again it's not a begging letter.

Which club is this you are talking about ? Or area
		
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he joined the club in question in End after making his case to the board

thorden park golf club


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## guest100718 (Jan 5, 2017)

pauljames87 said:



			he joined the club in question in End after making his case to the board

thorden park golf club
		
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Nice course.

Quite stuffy


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2017)

pauljames87 said:



			he joined the club in question in End after making his case to the board

thorden park golf club
		
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Making his case to the board ?

How long ago was this ? One of our regular playing partners 18 months ago moved into that area - he joined Thornden Park - he didn't know anyone , got an application form from the General Manager , then had an informal interview with the GM and then joined - certainly no begging letter or making his case. He did have to wait 8 week to join. Also have played with one of the Pros there in Pro Ams - it's a nice course


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## moogie (Jan 5, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Making his case to the board ?

How long ago was this ? One of our regular playing partners 18 months ago moved into that area - he joined Thornden Park - he didn't know anyone , got an application form from the General Manager , then had an informal interview with the GM and then joined - certainly no begging letter or making his case. He did have to wait 8 week to join. Also have played with one of the Pros there in Pro Ams - it's a nice course
		
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As you're always right Phil
Then it looks like he must have just made that whole story up
Just for a laugh??
Or attention seeking??
Either way you've put us all right now in your usual know it all way


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 5, 2017)

moogie said:



			As you're always right Phil
Then it looks like he must have just made that whole story up
Just for a laugh??
Or attention seeking??
Either way you've put us all right now in your usual know it all way
		
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Nobody is accusing anyone of making things up but with the exception of a handful of very top clubs, getting in to a club these days is a pretty painless process.

I'm a member of 2 clubs ( top 100 and next 100) and I didn't know anyone at either when I joined. Dead easy though. Fill in application form, be interviewed, playing in round then part with cash. No begging required


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2017)

moogie said:



			As you're always right Phil
Then it looks like he must have just made that whole story up
Just for a laugh??
Or attention seeking??
Either way you've put us all right now in your usual know it all way
		
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No one is suggesting any of that - just as D4S said earlier possibly a bit of an exaggeration and it's certainly not the experience of joining one of my old pp had when he joined


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## moogie (Jan 5, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Interesting that you picked out my post yet ignored D4S suggesting there was some exaggeration going on - but guess you must have missed that post , have a look up and if you look really good you will find it
		
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Oh dear
You must have missed it too
As I can't see D4S singling out the exact club named above, like you did
Thus giving us an insight,  with your superior knowledge,   into exactly how the workings of membership applications are processed at said club
You all but call the guy a liar
Very condescending


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2017)

moogie said:



			Oh dear
You must have missed it too
As I can't see D4S singling out the exact club named above, like you did
Thus giving us an insight,  with your superior knowledge,   into exactly how the workings of membership applications are processed at said club
You all but call the guy a liar
Very condescending
		
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Ok :thup:


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## moogie (Jan 5, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Ok :thup:
		
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Thanks


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## Canmore (Jan 5, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Nobody is accusing anyone of making things up but with the exception of a handful of very top clubs, getting in to a club these days is a pretty painless process.

I'm a member of 2 clubs ( top 100 and next 100) and I didn't know anyone at either when I joined. Dead easy though. Fill in application form, be interviewed, playing in round then part with cash. No begging required  

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Totally agree - I did the same 5 years ago when arguably it was even harder to get into a top 100 course.  Make some enquiries, fill in an application form, play with a couple of committee members, and then they let you join.  No real dramas - and everyone was so nice and accommodating when I first joined (staff and members)


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## Slab (Jan 5, 2017)

Bit funny that folk say no hoops to jump through and immediately talk about that you just need to 'apply to join'  attend an 'interview'  and 'let you join' !

No thats not stuffy and elitest at all


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## Norrin Radd (Jan 5, 2017)

we seem to have drifted a tad off topic here lads.

 so in keeping with the thread title ,the problem with golf ,a lot has been said about the game be it time consuming or difficult ,elitist or too pricey ,i agree that possibly a combination of all these elements contribute in their own way,but my veiw is this ,
 i think that golf is losing its shine through [and this is only in the UK] not having the amount of tournaments hosted here like the old days when a good deal more events were held and people could see the top names up close and personal. 
the lack of events here [UK] is to my eyes why the dip in people wanting to try our noble game. im sure its not the main reason but im betting that if there were more events held in the UK that numbers would increase .


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 5, 2017)

Slab said:



			Bit funny that folk say no hoops to jump through and immediately talk about that you just need to 'apply to join'  attend an 'interview'  and 'let you join' !

No thats not stuffy and elitest at all
		
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Why is it stuffy and elitist? It is a simple process to control who joins a club. I'm sure 99% of applicants get in but you may want to exclude 1% for whatever reason (criminals etc)


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2017)

Slab said:



			Bit funny that folk say no hoops to jump through and immediately talk about that you just need to 'apply to join'  attend an 'interview'  and 'let you join' !

No thats not stuffy and elitest at all
		
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Let's be honest bar the top clubs in the country 

You have to apply to join any club - golf or even fitness club - that's just a form - what's elitist about that ?

Then some clubs invite the persons or indeeds person to come to the club for an informal welcome chat - we have welcome meetings now 

And "let you join" - that's just a saying which means the application has been successful 

Beyond the expected top clubs - all the other clubs the joining process is quite simple and very informal - for majority now it's like joining a gym and for a lot provided there is spaces it can all be done in a day.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Let's be honest bar the top clubs in the country 

You have to apply to join any club - golf or even fitness club - that's just a form - what's elitist about that ?

Then some clubs invite the persons or indeeds person to come to the club for an informal welcome chat - we have welcome meetings now 

And "let you join" - that's just a saying which means the application has been successful 

Beyond the expected top clubs - all the other clubs the joining process is quite simple and very informal - for majority now it's like joining a gym and for a lot provided there is spaces it can all be done in a day.
		
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Have you checked every single club beyond the expected top clubs to make sure it's quite simple and very informal?
We have decent Clubs up here that are no way top clubs that still put your name up for 10-14 days for any objections and still require an interview before the welcome evening if succesful.


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## 94tegsi (Jan 5, 2017)

I'm currently looking to join as a member locally.

First choice was the "top" course in the area. Alas I can not meet the below criteria...

"Prospective members will normally need two current members to propose and second their application and they will then go through an interview process."


As for declining numbers. There used to be quite a few of my friends who played regularly, only 2 of us left now. Mainly down to time I'm afraid.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 5, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Have you checked every single club beyond the expected top clubs to make sure it's quite simple and very informal?
We have decent Clubs up here that are no way top clubs that still put your name up for 10-14 days for any objections and still require an interview before the welcome evening if succesful.
		
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That is pretty standard procedure though Paul, gives the members a chance to weed out any known undesirables. It doesn't make the process any more complex, just adds a short delay.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2017)

drive4show said:



			That is pretty standard procedure though Paul, gives the members a chance to weed out any known undesirables. It doesn't make the process any more complex, just adds a short delay.
		
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Exactly Gordon, just some clubs are not as informal as we like to think and outside the top clubs there are clubs that still do it "their way" in a formal manner and that's up to them.


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## shivas irons (Jan 5, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Don't see the need to change 

The game can be as cheap or as expensive as you want - you can prob get a full set of clubs for under Â£200 that will last years 

You can get cheap memberships and rounds of golf 

And there are many ways to play quicker rounds 

Any sport is hard to master hence why only the very best do master it
		
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This...a mate wanted to start playing again after selling his gear some years back, recently he bought a Titleist 905d,Titleist 980f,Titleist 975f,Titleist 735cm's 3-pw,52,56 vokeys and a Scotty platinium,all in really good nick and bought seperatly for a total cost of Â£150,all quality equiptment and would have cost around Â£1500 when new,add to that local 7 day membership at a decent course for Â£60 a month where there was no joining on fee done to encourage membership and his golf starts to be a very inexpensive pastime.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Exactly Gordon, just some clubs are not as informal as we like to think and outside the top clubs there are clubs that still do it "their way" in a formal manner and that's up to them.
		
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There will always be clubs that do it their way - and they will continue to it their way as long as it is still working for that club . There are still clubs that require an interview process and there are clubs that put your name on the board - but it's a world of difference from a couple decades ago when nearly all private members clubs were like that. Majority have or are changing to try and remove the "stuffy and elitist" tag that golf and members club has. The ones that don't try will obviously have a course that makes it all worthwhile or will die away


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## bobmac (Jan 5, 2017)

Would people who are new to golf really want to join the 'stuffy' clubs?
And
With all the clubs closing, I wonder how many there are today compared to say 50 years ago.


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## Canmore (Jan 5, 2017)

drive4show said:



			That is pretty standard procedure though Paul, gives the members a chance to weed out any known undesirables. It doesn't make the process any more complex, just adds a short delay.
		
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Spot on - its just the standard procedure - how many people will actually be refused membership following 2 weeks on an obscure notice board somewhere.  Very few (if any).


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## DRW (Jan 5, 2017)

pauljames87 said:



			he joined the club in question in End after making his case to the board

thorden park golf club
		
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You must live very close to were I used to live, given the courses you talk about and have played. I used to live in Rochford and there are a few clubs around in that area that follow that kind of procedure which I found imposing and stopped me joining one such club in Essex.

I never had the chance to play golf(parents never did, they certainly could not afford it or for me to and me/parents didn't move in the right circles) when I was young and do find the attend an interview etc not very inviting and certainly not painless. However I find it interesting reading some comments such as drive4show saving that it is painless, just shows how different outlooks view the same matter differently and makes me want to challenge my outlook on the matter, so thanks for that as in many ways you are right really.:thup:

Thorndon Park, love the layout of the course, but the number of problems we had there over the years(wont mention the groups name but I have never held a day there myself due to the problems). But it is my favourite layout of any course I have played, was top 100 course IIRC for 1 or 2 years.


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## Coffey (Jan 5, 2017)

Canmore said:



			Spot on - its just the standard procedure - how many people will actually be refused membership following 2 weeks on an obscure notice board somewhere.  Very few (if any).
		
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May be the standard procedure but it can also put new people off joining. Being a new golfer, from the outside you read and hear of all the procedures and rules and it definitely puts you off. In reality it is very easy to join most clubs, but you don't know that until you have done it. I was always very nervous joining a club until my standard improved as I didn't know certain rules etc and always heard of interviews and everything. But now I have no idea what I was worried about. I think the perception needs to be changed, and as you say, whats the point in the noticeboard if 99% of names on it go through- 2 week delay for absolutely no reason.


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## fundy (Jan 5, 2017)

94tegsi said:



			I'm currently looking to join as a member locally.

First choice was the "top" course in the area. Alas I can not meet the below criteria...

"Prospective members will normally need two current members to propose and second their application and they will then go through an interview process."


As for declining numbers. There used to be quite a few of my friends who played regularly, only 2 of us left now. Mainly down to time I'm afraid. 

Click to expand...

based on your other thread i assume this was northants county?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 5, 2017)

DarrenWilliams said:



			However I find it interesting reading some comments such as drive4show saving that it is painless, just shows how different outlooks view the same matter differently and makes me want to challenge my outlook on the matter, so thanks for that as in many ways you are right really.:thup:
		
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Don't forget that the interview process is very much a 2 way thing. You are interviewing the club to an extent to ensure it meets your requirements as well!

The interviewer may be just as nervous as the interviewee


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## Mike07 (Jan 5, 2017)

Canmore said:



			Spot on - its just the standard procedure - how many people will actually be refused membership following 2 weeks on an obscure notice board somewhere.  Very few (if any).
		
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For us regular club golfers 'in the know', yes the application, interview and playing in process required is very standard (or whatever is required at any particular club)

For a new Golfer, this can be very intimidating and not very welcoming. I know, I was once a new golfer...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 5, 2017)

94tegsi said:



			"Prospective members will *normally* need two current members to propose and second their application and they will then go through an interview process."
		
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Don't let that put you off, just remember it is very much a buyers market out there and the vast majority of clubs will welcome your application if you present yourself in a respectable manner. Just cover up the love/hate tattoos on your knuckles


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## Mike07 (Jan 5, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Don't let that put you off, just remember it is very much a buyers market out there and the vast majority of clubs will welcome your application if you present yourself in a respectable manner. Just cover up the love/hate tattoos on your knuckles   

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I agree but I don't understand why a club posts that on their website. A simple 'please call the club and we would be delighted to discuss our membership options' is sufficient.

Clubs are desperate for members but most of their websites give an impression of exclusivity and a that they will do you a favour by inviting you to join


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## Coffey (Jan 5, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Don't let that put you off, just remember it is very much a buyers market out there and the vast majority of clubs will welcome your application if you present yourself in a respectable manner. Just cover up the love/hate tattoos on your knuckles   

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Agree with this.

For my club, I needed to be recommended by two members and then signed by committee member. I printed out the membership form, filled it in and then got it signed by two people who didn't know me and then a committee member who was sitting at the bar having a drink. Had a good chat with them and they said they were desperate for younger members. All very friendly and happy to see people joining the club.

Just give them a call and explain, I'm sure they will be welcoming.


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## 94tegsi (Jan 5, 2017)

fundy said:



			based on your other thread i assume this was northants county?
		
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That is correct fundy. Although I think I agree with you. Although the course is great. My friend and I looking to join like to have a laugh, so maybe not the club for us.


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## CMNI (Jan 5, 2017)

Canmore said:



			Spot on - its just the standard procedure - how many people will actually be refused membership following 2 weeks on an obscure notice board somewhere.  Very few (if any).
		
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It is this standard procedure that is silly though.  Most clubs offer Pay per play,  they will happily take my money if I show up every week and pay a round, but if I want to pay in a lump sum and commit to them, I all of a sudden need vetted?  

Why not just rock up, pay your money and away you go?  

Stick a name up and a number of members have an issue with the guy, well who cares? I don't know the names of 80% of the members in our club. If I disliked one I could easily avoid them.  

I was a full member of a club for the first time this year as I had disposable income and plenty of free time.  I will likely not renew it this coming year as we are expecting a baby -  I can now however, play the same course 18 holes once a week and 9 holes one night in the summer for less than a full membership.  Being a member suited me this year as I had a saving, though there was no other incentive.  I only ever played socially at the club, and don't play comps, if I get one and a half rounds in a week I will be lucky.  

One thing I think needs sorted out (at least at clubs I have played at), is weekend tee times.  A lot are reserved for members only.  This is nonsense, we have had free tee times that don't become available until the Saturday morning for non-members, where as we have folk ringing week in week out willing to pay the higher weekend green fees and being told non-members after 3.  Why would anyone pay Â£35 for a round after 3 in December or January? And then the morning tee times lying empty! 

Holding spots for comps is one thing I can imagine you all saying, but there are members who are out there on a Saturday playing much slower, off higher H/Cs than a lot of our visitors.  So letting non-members out in between groups isn't that big an issue surely?  


Sorry this is a bit of a rant haha.   

Golf is intimidating to those outside of the game (but so our most sports), I have only been playing a few years and didn't have any golfing friends at the time, and while I had the bug it took me a while to feel comfortable around the place.  Gateway events and courses are what will make it grow.  My Dad would love to take it up, but trying to convince him that no one gives a toss if you hit it 50 or 500 yards when you're out there seems to be the struggle- he is just retired and wants to start, he keeps throwing out excuses but I know deep down he just doesnt want to look stupid trying something new.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 5, 2017)

CMNI said:



			It is this standard procedure that is silly though.  Most clubs offer Pay per play,  they will happily take my money if I show up every week and pay a round, but if I want to pay in a lump sum and commit to them, I all of a sudden need vetted?  

Why not just rock up, pay your money and away you go?  

Stick a name up and a number of members have an issue with the guy, well who cares? I don't know the names of 80% of the members in our club. If I disliked one I could easily avoid them.  

I was a full member of a club for the first time this year as I had disposable income and plenty of free time.  I will likely not renew it this coming year as we are expecting a baby -  I can now however, play the same course 18 holes once a week and 9 holes one night in the summer for less than a full membership.  Being a member suited me this year as I had a saving, though there was no other incentive.  I only ever played socially at the club, and don't play comps, if I get one and a half rounds in a week I will be lucky.  

One thing I think needs sorted out (at least at clubs I have played at), is weekend tee times.  A lot are reserved for members only.  This is nonsense, we have had free tee times that don't become available until the Saturday morning for non-members, where as we have folk ringing week in week out willing to pay the higher weekend green fees and being told non-members after 3.  Why would anyone pay Â£35 for a round after 3 in December or January? And then the morning tee times lying empty! 

Holding spots for comps is one thing I can imagine you all saying, but there are members who are out there on a Saturday playing much slower, off higher H/Cs than a lot of our visitors.  So letting non-members out in between groups isn't that big an issue surely?  


Sorry this is a bit of a rant haha.   

Golf is intimidating to those outside of the game (but so our most sports), I have only been playing a few years and didn't have any golfing friends at the time, and while I had the bug it took me a while to feel comfortable around the place.  Gateway events and courses are what will make it grow.  My Dad would love to take it up, but trying to convince him that no one gives a toss if you hit it 50 or 500 yards when you're out there seems to be the struggle- he is just retired and wants to start, he keeps throwing out excuses but I know deep down he just doesnt want to look stupid trying something new.
		
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Don't forget there are different types of club, private members versus proprietary. A PMC will always vet prospective members as they are not money making organisations, they exist to provide a service. If you pay a hefty joining fee and substantial annual subs you don't want to be paired up in the monthly medal with the local paedophile or violent criminal


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			Nice course.

Quite stuffy
		
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It is a lovely course indeed, very stuffy but course itself is outstanding.

Lifted from the membership part of their website 

"There are two routes for applicants:

A candidate should have a proposer and seconder who are members of the Club and who have been known to him/her for at least four years, be acquainted with several other members, have played golf at Thorndon Park, and be aware of the traditions of the Club. Thorndon Park offers several categories of membership. For men and ladies, there is seven-day, six-day or five-day membership.
Others wishing to apply for membership of the Club but without a proposer and seconder â€“ such as golfers moving into the area â€“ are invited to contact the General Manager for further details."


So if I wanted to join I cant even use the route of my colleague I have worked with for 7 plus years id have to know a second member aswell

Very masonry.


"We currently have three buggies at Thorndon Park. These are available for hire for those who possess medical dispensation" 

actually quite like this part as not a fan of buggies unless their needed but some mind find that a bit off

This is the same club that another friend of mine played and got quite firmly told off by the pro for having "the wrong colour socks" and was told if he wanted to play he had to buy a pair from the pro shop (or obviously change his socks if he had another colour with him for anyone who wants to get technical"

You summed it up perfectly

Beautiful course. But stuffy


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 5, 2017)

pauljames87 said:



			It is a lovely course indeed, very stuffy but course itself is outstanding.

Lifted from the membership part of their website 

"There are two routes for applicants:

A candidate should have a proposer and seconder who are members of the Club and who have been known to him/her for at least four years, be acquainted with several other members, have played golf at Thorndon Park, and be aware of the traditions of the Club. Thorndon Park offers several categories of membership. For men and ladies, there is seven-day, six-day or five-day membership.
*Others wishing to apply for membership of the Club but without a proposer and seconder â€“ such as golfers moving into the area â€“ are invited to contact the General Manager for further details."*


So if I wanted to join I cant even use the route of my colleague I have worked with for 7 plus years id have to know a second member aswell

Very masonry.


"We currently have three buggies at Thorndon Park. These are available for hire for those who possess medical dispensation" 

actually quite like this part as not a fan of buggies unless their needed but some mind find that a bit off

This is the same club that another friend of mine played and got quite firmly told off by the pro for having "the wrong colour socks" and was told if he wanted to play he had to buy a pair from the pro shop (or obviously change his socks if he had another colour with him for anyone who wants to get technical"

You summed it up perfectly

Beautiful course. But stuffy
		
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What is stopping you from applying? It states quite clearly in the bit I have highlighted.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2017)

DarrenWilliams said:



			You must live very close to were I used to live, given the courses you talk about and have played. I used to live in Rochford and there are a few clubs around in that area that follow that kind of procedure which I found imposing and stopped me joining one such club in Essex.

I never had the chance to play golf(parents never did, they certainly could not afford it or for me to and me/parents didn't move in the right circles) when I was young and do find the attend an interview etc not very inviting and certainly not painless. However I find it interesting reading some comments such as drive4show saving that it is painless, just shows how different outlooks view the same matter differently and makes me want to challenge my outlook on the matter, so thanks for that as in many ways you are right really.:thup:

Thorndon Park, love the layout of the course, but the number of problems we had there over the years(wont mention the groups name but I have never held a day there myself due to the problems). But it is my favourite layout of any course I have played, was top 100 course IIRC for 1 or 2 years.
		
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Ah rochford my aunt lives near there. Myself from Hornchurch. I play all over the place (not just my shots) as my golf society is based through work and I work in the finchley area so most events are around the A1 so everyone has an equal journey to play.

My second society plays more the east end of London or Essex so suits me

Got a good mate who lives in barnet we take in turns to travel 


Thorndon is a lovely club I have played once and would like to play again. Paid Â£20 members guests rates was worth every penny. Don't know if I could pay the Â£70 for a standard round when I could go and play another pretty decent course for say Â£30 and play twice lol


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2017)

drive4show said:



			What is stopping you from applying? It states quite clearly in the bit I have highlighted.
		
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Apart from the fact I am not looking to apply and just giving a hypothetical situation I wouldn't be able to simply ask my mate to put me forward I would have to contact the general manager and make my case. 

I am not interested in joining a club and if I was it would be more local , under 20 mins drive so I could maximize my usage for it. Lovely course and id play their again when my mate invites me out but I don't want to join.


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## CMNI (Jan 5, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Don't forget there are different types of club, private members versus proprietary. A PMC will always vet prospective members as they are not money making organisations, they exist to provide a service. If you pay a hefty joining fee and substantial annual subs you don't want to be paired up in the monthly medal with the local paedophile or violent criminal  

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You make no point of PMC in your original post.  You simply said it is standard procedure.  If a club lets an player come along and pay the fees to play a round then the same player should not need to go through an interview to become a member.  He poses no more risk to the club if he pays per round, or pays for the year.  

I agree with your point on playing partners, and I suppose this is something I haven't considered as I tend to play with the same guys week in week out.


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## Hobbit (Jan 5, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Don't forget there are different types of club, private members versus proprietary. A PMC will always vet prospective members as they are not money making organisations, they exist to provide a service. If you pay a hefty joining fee and substantial annual subs you don't want to be paired up in the monthly medal with the local paedophile or violent criminal  

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But playing Devil's Advocate for a second. I could enter an Open at said club and be paired with an axe murderer from another club. Or I could be an axe murderer who turns up and pays a green fee.

Don't forget, a green fee payer is a temporary member, yet gets access to the club that someone else has had to do backflips to become a full member.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 5, 2017)

pauljames87 said:



			Apart from the fact I am not looking to apply and just giving a hypothetical situation I wouldn't be able to simply ask my mate to put me forward I would have to contact the general manager and make my case. 

I am not interested in joining a club and if I was it would be more local , under 20 mins drive so I could maximize my usage for it. Lovely course and id play their again when my mate invites me out but I don't want to join.
		
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In your hypothetical situation, it is hardly an inhibitor to you joining though. A simple email or phone call to the GM explaining you are interested in joining but don't know any members. I'm sure he would be delighted to hear from you.

I think some people overcomplicate a pretty straightforward process.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 5, 2017)

CMNI said:



			You make no point of PMC in your original post.  You simply said it is standard procedure.  If a club lets an player come along and pay the fees to play a round then the same player should not need to go through an interview to become a member.  He poses no more risk to the club if he pays per round, or pays for the year.  

I agree with your point on playing partners, and I suppose this is something I haven't considered as I tend to play with the same guys week in week out.
		
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Apologies, I made the assumption that everyone understands there are different types of club.


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## CMNI (Jan 5, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			But playing Devil's Advocate for a second. I could enter an Open at said club and be paired with an axe murderer from another club. Or I could be an axe murderer who turns up and pays a green fee.

Don't forget, a green fee payer is a temporary member, yet gets access to the club that someone else has had to do backflips to become a full member.
		
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This is the point I was wanting to make.  Though you put it much more eloquently :rofl:


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2017)

...we've got to make it less rule-bound and easier to score - short holes; bigger cups; few hazards.  

How any club wishing to try out that approach would make that happen would be up to the club to work out how to accommodate it in their land - or in association with local pitch-and-putt or par 3 courses.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 5, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			But playing Devil's Advocate for a second. I could enter an Open at said club and be paired with an axe murderer from another club. Or I could be an axe murderer who turns up and pays a green fee.

Don't forget, a green fee payer is a temporary member, yet gets access to the club that someone else has had to do backflips to become a full member.
		
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Very true Brian but at least that person is only there for the day and not week in, week out ruining the fabric of the club.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2017)

drive4show said:



			In your hypothetical situation, it is hardly an inhibitor to you joining though. A simple email or phone call to the GM explaining you are interested in joining but don't know any members. I'm sure he would be delighted to hear from you.

I think some people overcomplicate a pretty straightforward process.
		
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Its hardly straight forward though

to join a club it should literally be

ring the office "hello im interested in joining the club whats the fees?" fill in your bank details and off you go.

when I was a member of my old club I literally just had to pay the yearly subs and then play as much as I wanted. Shouldn't have to have an interview . if im interested in joining a club I have come to the stage where I have researched beyond doubt that its the right club for me


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## CMNI (Jan 5, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Apologies, I made the assumption that everyone understands there are different types of club.
		
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You said standard procedure, therefore all clubs.  I assumed the topic would revolve around the majority of clubs, not PMC, seeing I talked about walk ups paying their fees. 

But to assume makes an ass of u and me....


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 5, 2017)

pauljames87 said:



			Its hardly straight forward though

to join a club it should literally be

ring the office "hello im interested in joining the club whats the fees?" fill in your bank details and off you go.

when I was a member of my old club I literally just had to pay the yearly subs and then play as much as I wanted. Shouldn't have to have an interview . if im interested in joining a club I have come to the stage where I have researched beyond doubt that its the right club for me
		
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It is straightforward! Phonecall/email, fill out form and send it back. Proprietary club you will probably get straight in, private club may take a few weeks (or months if there is a waiting list).

How difficult is that?


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## CMNI (Jan 5, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Very true Brian but at least that person is only there for the day and not week in, week out ruining the fabric of the club.
		
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They could however show up every week or every other week and pay their green fee if they wished...


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2017)

drive4show said:



			It is straightforward! Phonecall/email, fill out form and send it back. Proprietary club you will probably get straight in, private club may take a few weeks (or months if there is a waiting list).

How difficult is that?
		
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you have mentioned interviews in previous posts. Unnecessary 

Playing a round with a pro in a pro am someone else mentioned? because that wont be at all intimidating 

Ill stick to pay as you go , get to explore new courses. I did enjoy my first year as a member but my second year I found very boring. wont rush to join another club just yet


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2017)

pauljames87 said:



			you have mentioned interviews in previous posts. Unnecessary 

Playing a round with a pro in a pro am someone else mentioned? because that wont be at all intimidating 

Ill stick to pay as you go , get to explore new courses. I did enjoy my first year as a member but my second year I found very boring. wont rush to join another club just yet
		
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The comment about playing in a Pro Am with a Pro had nothing to do with joining a club ? 

I'm guessing you don't want to play competitive golf then


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2017)

pauljames87 said:



			Its hardly straight forward though

to join a club it should literally be

ring the office "hello im interested in joining the club whats the fees?" fill in your bank details and off you go.

when I was a member of my old club I literally just had to pay the yearly subs and then play as much as I wanted. Shouldn't have to have an interview . if im interested in joining a club I have come to the stage where I have researched beyond doubt that its the right club for me
		
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Thing about joining a members club is that you are joining a club in which many members will take pride in - sometimes great pride.  The point of an interview therefore becomes a moment when the prospective member becomes aware (or should do) that they are joining a club and will become one of a body of generally like-minded people.  So without it usually being said explicitly, the prospective member should take away from the interview: that they will be expected to fall in line with a few simple norms and standards; that they cannot just behave however they want; that they are responsible for the behaviour of any guest that they bring to the club and/or onto the course; and that they have responsibilities of consideration (and hopefully respect) towards other members and players.  

Basically your membership is in the context of a framework of responsibilities and expectations of you that should not be too restrictive, but will be reasonable and should be adhered to wherever possible.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 5, 2017)

CMNI said:



			They could however show up every week or every other week and pay their green fee if they wished...
		
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Not a private club they couldn't.


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## Hobbit (Jan 5, 2017)

Having just looked at a number of application forms I'm amazed how many still ask your "profession."


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 5, 2017)

pauljames87 said:



			you have mentioned interviews in previous posts. Unnecessary
		
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I think they are very necessary for a private club so I guess we will just need to agree to disagree on that one.


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## Coffey (Jan 5, 2017)

pauljames87 said:



			you have mentioned interviews in previous posts. Unnecessary 

Playing a round with a pro in a pro am someone else mentioned? because that wont be at all intimidating 

Ill stick to pay as you go , get to explore new courses. I did enjoy my first year as a member but my second year I found very boring. wont rush to join another club just yet
		
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I am entering my second year of membership at this club so may be ill change my mind this time next year...

I joined my club with 2 good mates of mine, both of which have stopped playing. I am fully integrated into my club after just 1 season, now playing in a winter league and had a few away days with people. Every time I'm in the bar for food or a drink people are coming up and speaking to me and everything. I think being part of a club is great.

What did you find boring about it? Was it just playing the same course every week?


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The comment about playing in a Pro Am with a Pro had nothing to do with joining a club ? 

I'm guessing you don't want to play competitive golf then
		
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thats what my society is for play competitive in that it's a monthly event throughout the season

30 members, best 4 scores is captain and we have a captains cup at end of season 

match play runs throughout season aswell which reminds me need to book that in march

serves my needs just right


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## Hobbit (Jan 5, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I think they are very necessary for a private club so I guess we will just need to agree to disagree on that one.
		
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Are they really necessary for someone with an official handicap? That person has already been accepted into golf and has gone one further by getting a handicap.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2017)

pauljames87 said:



			thats what my society is for play competitive in that it's a monthly event throughout the season

30 members, best 4 scores is captain and we have a captains cup at end of season 

match play runs throughout season aswell which reminds me need to book that in march

serves my needs just right
		
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Yes I do that in the two societies I play in 

On top of playing with my mates on a weekly basis , gaining an official golf handicap , playing in official golf comps and being able to enter Opens all over the country at the best courses in the country , as well as reciprocal golf and multiple courses plus gaining a county card which allows me to play on courses all over the country on reduced green fees


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 5, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Are they really necessary for someone with an official handicap? That person has already been accepted into golf and has gone one further by getting a handicap.
		
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I would say so, the handicap could have been obtained from Murderers and Rapists GC or Murcar then they try to join somewhere respectable like Broadstone


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## Hobbit (Jan 5, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I would say so, the handicap could have been obtained from Murderers and Rapists GC or Murcar then they try to join somewhere respectable like Broadstone  

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Broadstone let you in!?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 5, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Broadstone let you in!? 

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I come across very well in interviews


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## Hobbit (Jan 5, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I come across very well in interviews  

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Police interviews?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 5, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Police interviews?
		
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You're on fire today Brian


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## Reemul (Jan 5, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I think they are very necessary for a private club so I guess we will just need to agree to disagree on that one.
		
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This seems mostly to be specific to golf, all other sports that have private members from exclusive Gym's to Tennis Clubs and so on do not require this. In fact I had a weekend at an exclusive local members sports club that was a cost if Â£170 a month for the wife and I and we didn't need an interview, or know anyone there or anything. All we had to do was fill in the form and pay, we had superb service and full access to everything. They were very keen to embrace us and have us become members, there was no artificial barrier.

One of the barriers for those from outside looking in is precisely this. In all other things it's done this way and having to see it done the other intimidates or putts (get it ) off these people. It is easy to say it shouldn't or don't be silly etc etc but for some it does and that is a negative. Anything that deters a potential customer is a bad thing.

People here that are club members are fine as they have been there and done it, but for many it's way too off putting. It doesn't even need to be real any imagined issue will put people off and prevent them from joining.

As an aside I used to be a member of a golf club and my rights as a member were no better than as a Pay and Play. If I didn't do the 5 rounds minimum a month to save on cost there were literally no membership benefits. I would like a round on a morning and the pay as play crowd had booked a slot a week in advance, well tough, you can't play, a society is on the course all day, well tough no play time. In the end I stopped being a member and just did pay and play and played a lot more different clubs.

Drive4Show - That was at Canford Magna by the way, now closed.. and the local clubs are pretty stuffy round here, Ferndown, Broadstone, Parkstone, Dudsbury all nice courses etc but they are slightly oldie worldy. I play Bulbury Woods which is nice and common


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## Craigg (Jan 5, 2017)

drive4show said:



			In your hypothetical situation, it is hardly an inhibitor to you joining though. A simple email or phone call to the GM explaining you are interested in joining but don't know any members. I'm sure he would be delighted to hear from you.

I think some people overcomplicate a pretty straightforward process.
		
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^^^^^ This.

I had no proposer or seconder as required on the application form. A quick e mail to the GM and he asked me to come in for an informal chat with himself and the Club Captain. We had a good yarn about all things golf and the deal was done. Even managed to squeeze a free few months over the winter before my subs are due in April.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2017)

Craigg said:



			^^^^^ This.

I had no proposer or seconder as required on the application form. A quick e mail to the GM and he asked me to come in for an informal chat with himself and the Club Captain. We had a good yarn about all things golf and the deal was done. Even managed to squeeze a free few months over the winter before my subs are due in April.
		
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No one is saying all clubs requiring an interview are all formal, it was Lpoolphil who insinuated that outside top clubs all other clubs were informal, it's simply not true, there are allsorts of different clubs doing it their way, doesn't make them right or wrong and whether we agree or not there is the possibility of some of the joining process's listed on websites can be very off putting to some.


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## richart (Jan 5, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Nobody is accusing anyone of making things up but with the exception of a handful of very top clubs, getting in to a club these days is a pretty painless process.

I'm a member of 2 clubs ( top 100 and next 100) and I didn't know anyone at either when I joined. Dead easy though. Fill in application form, be interviewed, playing in round then part with cash. No begging required  

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I was begged to join Blackmoor.


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## Hobbit (Jan 5, 2017)

richart said:



			I was begged to join Blackmoor.

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By members at other clubs?:ears:


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## richart (Jan 5, 2017)

richart said:



			I was begged to join Blackmoor.

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Hobbit said:



			By members at other clubs?:ears:
		
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 They may be regretting it now.


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## Mike07 (Jan 5, 2017)

Reemul said:



			One of the barriers for those from outside looking in is precisely this. In all other things it's done this way and having to see it done the other intimidates or putts (get it ) off these people. It is easy to say it shouldn't or don't be silly etc etc but for some it does and that is a negative. Anything that deters a potential customer is a bad thing.

People here that are club members are fine as they have been there and done it, but for many it's way too off putting. It doesn't even need to be real any imagined issue will put people off and prevent them from joining.
		
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Point made very well and what i was trying to allude to earlier in the thread.

We who are club members and post on this forum know a lot about golf, hence why we are here. For a new golfer, it can be incredibly intimidating and the artificial barriers are there.


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## richart (Jan 5, 2017)

I had an 'interview' when I joined my club, but it was to tell me about the club, and why I should join there. No questions about my criminal record at all. Orginally applied as a 5 day member, and after being told about the weekend roll ups and how easy it was to get a game, I joined as a full member. Did fill in an application form, which I imagine the club found useful for getting my details on the system. Got played in by joining one of the roll ups. Nothing to get me claiming my human rights were being abused.


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## ger147 (Jan 5, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Not a private club they couldn't.
		
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Plenty of private members clubs in this neck of the woods have visitors at the weekend, and the ones signed up with GolfNow have them paying very cheap rates as well.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2017)

Coffey said:



			I am entering my second year of membership at this club so may be ill change my mind this time next year...

I joined my club with 2 good mates of mine, both of which have stopped playing. I am fully integrated into my club after just 1 season, now playing in a winter league and had a few away days with people. Every time I'm in the bar for food or a drink people are coming up and speaking to me and everything. I think being part of a club is great.

What did you find boring about it? Was it just playing the same course every week?
		
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it was a combination of things

My granddad was and is still a member (has been for years) my mate joined so I decided to join with him

First year I played a lot with my granddad in the weekdays , and my friend at the weekends.

My mate second year decided he wanted to play different clubs and I was like come on we are members we should use our membership or else why on earth are we members?

I also have a passionate hatred of weekend golf and avoid where possible. Its a lot slower than weekday golf (or is at that club, 4 hours average on a weekday, 5 hours min at weekends) and I had always been brought up by my day and granddad to play in the week as "we are able to play in the week so leave the weekend for those who cant play in the week" so where possible I avoid weekends.

second year I joined a society on the side of the membership and I found I enjoyed it more so ended my membership and I have played that course 5 times since leaving as a member. I realize now it wasn't the course for me but at the time I just went with it. its a very draining course. Up and down the same hill for 14 of the 18 holes.. down the hill then back up so by time you finish you feel like you have just walked up a mountain lol. also its a course that has a lot of punishment of a good shot.. for example ditches running across the fairway 230 yards away from the tee on a 500 yard par 5. so you end up laying up to the ditch if you don't want to risk going over. Then your next shot you lay up to the pond which is 150 from the green.

I took my 10 handicap mate their other day and he said it was a struggle at times.. he shot 82 so on his handicap but had to fight all the way.

that and the greens are the worst I have ever seen. towards the end I just found myself angry with the state of the greens , always bobbling and slow


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 5, 2017)

Reemul said:



			This seems mostly to be specific to golf, all other sports that have private members from exclusive Gym's to Tennis Clubs and so on do not require this...
		
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Perhaps two significant differences golf has from other sports is that when golf club members participate in their sport, they share a common space with many others, and therefore respect and consideration to others - including players you are not actually playing with and indeed may well not know - are actually very important; as is the honesty aspect of the game.  I suggest that there are few sports - if any - that depend on the absolute honesty of the individual participant when an individuals actions may not be visible to playing partners.


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## Canmore (Jan 5, 2017)

Reemul said:



			This seems mostly to be specific to golf, all other sports that have private members from exclusive Gym's to Tennis Clubs and so on do not require this. In fact I had a weekend at an exclusive local members sports club that was a cost if Â£170 a month for the wife and I and we didn't need an interview, or know anyone there or anything. All we had to do was fill in the form and pay, we had superb service and full access to everything. They were very keen to embrace us and have us become members, there was no artificial barrier.

One of the barriers for those from outside looking in is precisely this. In all other things it's done this way and having to see it done the other intimidates or putts (get it ) off these people. It is easy to say it shouldn't or don't be silly etc etc but for some it does and that is a negative. Anything that deters a potential customer is a bad thing.

People here that are club members are fine as they have been there and done it, but for many it's way too off putting. It doesn't even need to be real any imagined issue will put people off and prevent them from joining.

As an aside I used to be a member of a golf club and my rights as a member were no better than as a Pay and Play. If I didn't do the 5 rounds minimum a month to save on cost there were literally no membership benefits. I would like a round on a morning and the pay as play crowd had booked a slot a week in advance, well tough, you can't play, a society is on the course all day, well tough no play time. In the end I stopped being a member and just did pay and play and played a lot more different clubs.

Drive4Show - That was at Canford Magna by the way, now closed.. and the local clubs are pretty stuffy round here, Ferndown, Broadstone, Parkstone, Dudsbury all nice courses etc but they are slightly oldie worldy. I play Bulbury Woods which is nice and common 

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Well in London, decent tennis clubs will require you to "play in". They need to ensure a degree of competence, otherwise you won't be able to participate fully in mix ins etc.

Golf should be thankful for the handicap system


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## londonlewis (Jan 5, 2017)

pauljames87 said:



			ring the office "hello im interested in joining the club whats the fees?" fill in your bank details and off you go.
		
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Wouldn't you want to know what the club is like before you joined though? I.e. via an interview to find out what the general make up of the members are, whether people tend to just play golf and leave or if they spend time in the club house after a round etc...


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## Reemul (Jan 5, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			Wouldn't you want to know what the club is like before you joined though? I.e. via an interview to find out what the general make up of the members are, whether people tend to just play golf and leave or if they spend time in the club house after a round etc...
		
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Not necessarily, I may wish to visit for a look round but maybe I have played there as a guest or member before or maybe I just want to join. As mentioned anything that looks like a block or issue puts off the potential joiner so an option rather than a must would be enough.

Again the trick is not looking at it from your perspective but from everyone's and many just can't do that. It's all if it's ok for me then it should be ok for everyone else doesn't really work for anyone but the person thinking that.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			Wouldn't you want to know what the club is like before you joined though? I.e. via an interview to find out what the general make up of the members are, whether people tend to just play golf and leave or if they spend time in the club house after a round etc...
		
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as stated later on in the thread no I wouldn't

before joining any club I would have played a few rounds there and done my research into if its the right club for me


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## Crow (Jan 5, 2017)

Regarding the ease of being accepted into some of these more popular clubs with traditions and a waiting list when you don't have a proposer and a seconder, one thing that hasn't been mentioned but I'm sure would oil or otherwise the application of the applicant (please correct me if I'm wrong ) would be the handicap entered onto the application form.

I imagine that a Cat 1 golfer would find their application treated much more favorably and processed more quickly by the club than that of someone who entered their 28 handicap.
I fully understand the reasons why this might be so (if true!!!) but it puts another slant on the application process and makes it not so easy to gain membership of such clubs for many golfers.


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## Mike07 (Jan 5, 2017)

Crow said:



			I imagine that a Cat 1 golfer would find their application treated much more favorably and processed more quickly by the club than that of someone who entered their 28 handicap.
I fully understand the reasons why this might be so (if true!!!) but it puts another slant on the application process and makes it not so easy to gain membership of such clubs for many golfers.
		
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I'm considering membership at a top 100 club and as I'm under 10 handicap I would not pay a joining fee and would not need to be played in.


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## upsidedown (Jan 5, 2017)

Crow said:



			Regarding the ease of being accepted into some of these more popular clubs with traditions and a waiting list when you don't have a proposer and a seconder, one thing that hasn't been mentioned but I'm sure would oil or otherwise the application of the applicant (please correct me if I'm wrong ) would be the handicap entered onto the application form.

I imagine that a Cat 1 golfer would find their application treated much more favorably and processed more quickly by the club than that of someone who entered their 28 handicap.
I fully understand the reasons why this might be so (if true!!!) but it puts another slant on the application process and makes it not so easy to gain membership of such clubs for many golfers.
		
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Aye that does happen or rather did to me. Rocked up with a NZ handicap of 3 and was introduced to the Chairman who then suggested we play 18 holes , no fee, that at the end of he had a cheque from me for myself and HiD 

Compared to when another forumite joined he had to go through application form, 14 days on the notice board and finally interview with Captain. All was ok but he was chomping at the bit to get playing and did find it a bit frustrating.

Reading through the thread it's apparent ( as was my thread on Fiddles) that all our clubs are different in how they garner new members and the perceived hoops people have to go through. To me not a problem and would have been more than happy to do the full nine yards because nearly 4 years on couldn't be happier .


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2017)

Mike07 said:



			I'm considering membership at a top 100 club and as I'm under 10 handicap I would not pay a joining fee and would not need to be played in.
		
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Really ? A joining determined by what HC you are ? Blimey that's really poor


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## Craigg (Jan 5, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Really ? A joining determined by what HC you are ? Blimey that's really poor
		
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Keeps the Riff Raff out you know old boy


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## Mike07 (Jan 5, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Really ? A joining determined by what HC you are ? Blimey that's really poor
		
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Indeed, they will waive the quite hefty fee provided my handicap is 9.4 or better. 

Poor, maybe, or just trying to attract some better golfers to balance the membership? Impossible to say but I hope to take advantage as it's a pretty nice saving... if I join


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## chip barm (Jan 5, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I'm sure 99% of applicants get in but you may want to exclude 1% for whatever reason (criminals etc)
		
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how do they know / find out you have a criminal record?


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## pauljames87 (Jan 5, 2017)

chip barm said:



			how do they know / find out you have a criminal record?
		
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and why should it ness matter? if someone has say been to prison for fraud a white collar crime.. paid their debt to society why should they be excluded from joining a golf club? not dangerous person like a mass murderer ... just keep an eye on their scorecard lol


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## Hobbit (Jan 5, 2017)

Mike07 said:



			Indeed, they will waive the quite hefty fee provided my handicap is 9.4 or better. 

Poor, maybe, or just trying to attract some better golfers to balance the membership? Impossible to say but I hope to take advantage as it's a pretty nice saving... if I join
		
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It definitely happens. I jumped a lengthy waiting list in '89 because I was a Cat 1. And I know of two clubs that offered subs free golf to County players to entice them to join...


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## pokerjoke (Jan 5, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			It definitely happens. I jumped a lengthy waiting list in '89 because I was a Cat 1. And I know of two clubs that offered subs free golf to County players to entice them to join...
		
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I heard they just wanted big eaters


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## pokerjoke (Jan 5, 2017)

chip barm said:



			how do they know / find out you have a criminal record?
		
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They cant but sometimes word gets around that the person could be trouble because he has before.


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## upsidedown (Jan 5, 2017)

chip barm said:



			how do they know / find out you have a criminal record?
		
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And no guarantee that a person without one will then offend when a member


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## Hobbit (Jan 5, 2017)

pokerjoke said:



			I heard they just wanted big eaters

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Put a bit of meat on yourself and you might be a Cat 1 player for nearly 40 years... :ears:


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## pokerjoke (Jan 5, 2017)

I believe the original question was about dwindling numbers at certain golf courses.

Someone mention GC are businesses and like in all sectors if your not keeping pace with the opposition you will struggle and eventually fail.

The other thing that springs to mind is the number of golf courses in any one area,if you are saturated with choice once again the poor ones will lose out.

Once in the club the welcome you get and first impression for me are key.

Do people welcome you and talk to you and make you feel welcome.

Just recently I was at my golf club and was shocked at what I heard,a pay and play group arrived early and wanted to go out before all members and the pro said yes,the gentleman came to the door with his golf shoes on to order 3 bacon rolls to take on the course,before a word came out of his mouth a member said "I hope hes not coming here with golf shoes on,he wasn't but he was angered so not a good welcome.

Then the state of the course it has imo to be looked after wether there are lots of members or a few because your on a slippery slope if you don't a bad reputation is a killer and hard to get back.

Imo cost probably has been the biggest reason and life styles,yes gear can be got cheaper than new but there are many other costs on top I-e comps,food,petrol and drinks.

Every member that can be attracted helps the club considerably with subs,food,comps spending in the pro shop which could be Â£2000 a year so imagine what 10 or 20 could be thus virtually guaranteeing jobs and quality,losing members will have a massive knock on effect of jobs and the quality of the course.


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## patricks148 (Jan 5, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			It definitely happens. I jumped a lengthy waiting list in '89 because I was a Cat 1. And I know of two clubs that offered subs free golf to County players to entice them to join...
		
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waiting lists yes , but wavering the membership and joining fee is a new one on me esp with only a handicap under 10.

We let people jump the 2 year waiting list at scratch and better and Inverness, who have a 7 year list let you jump to a year at 3 and better.

Which club is it i wonder???, i might have to join:rofl::rofl:


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## GB72 (Jan 5, 2017)

Going back a few years now but I remember contacting golf clubs when I was thinking of moving to a new area. I specified that I worked all week and could only play at weekends. One course advised that I would need to be a 5 day member for 2 years first and appreciated that I would not be able to play much but would be invited to play at weekends a couple of times a year. After that I may be invited to take a full membership. So, pay for 2 years not to play then I may get offered a membership that would allow me to use the course at weekends, unless I was a county player then I was straight in


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 5, 2017)

chip barm said:



			how do they know / find out you have a criminal record?
		
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And technically why should it matter. Unless it's something totally untoward then why should it make a difference other than a club being able to say NO and feel good about itself. Even if word gets out that a person may be "trouble" whatever that is and it's got back, there's usually two sides to most stories but I doubt most clubs would even give a prospective member the chance to even offer an explanation. Some clubs in my mind are still too caught in a time warp and I don't buy this we're TOP 100 as an excuse for why that has to make a difference to how they deal with memberships


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## Imurg (Jan 5, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Really ? A joining determined by what HC you are ? Blimey that's really poor
		
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And not at all "Elitist".....
We are going to have to have an interview when we join Whipsnade...Not really a problem but, to my mind, not entirely necessary.
All 3 of us are long-standing CONGU handicap holders and Club Members.
CVG's been playing nearly 40 years, I've played for nearly 25 and Fragger for a few less....Probably nigh on 80 years between us.
We know how to play and behave. We have a decent grasp on the rules and follow the ettiquette of the game...And we have money!
We've gathered enough info from the Pro and some Members to have worked out that the club meets what needs we have. The above shows that we will meet the requirements of the club. 
Job done.
Or should be.
Not really a rant as I've no problem with the system if that's what the Club requires.
But it might put off a total newbie.
My first club was a " money on the table, fill in form, here's your bag tag" system. - perfect for newbies.
There needs to be clubs at this level, ones that are that easy to join.
There's a place for all systems though...


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## USER1999 (Jan 5, 2017)

I think, that as an axe murderer i should be let straight in. Who the heck would want to be the one who black balls me?


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 5, 2017)

Imurg said:



			And not at all "Elitist".....
We are going to have to have an interview when we join Whipsnade...Not really a problem but, to my mind, not entirely necessary.
All 3 of us are long-standing CONGU handicap holders and Club Members.
CVG's been playing nearly 40 years, I've played for nearly 25 and Fragger for a few less....Probably nigh on 80 years between us.
We know how to play and behave. We have a decent grasp on the rules and follow the ettiquette of the game...And we have money!
We've gathered enough info from the Pro and some Members to have worked out that the club meets what needs we have. The above shows that we will meet the requirements of the club. 
Job done.
Or should be.
Not really a rant as I've no problem with the system if that's what the Club requires.
But it might put off a total newbie.
My first club was a " money on the table, fill in form, here's your bag tag" system. - perfect for newbies.
There needs to be clubs at this level, ones that are that easy to join.
There's a place for all systems though...
		
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Surely it all depends on what sort of interview it is

Is it a sitting at a desk with club officers and a formal type 

Or a number of you in a room having a two way informal chat to talk about yourselves and to get any information you could need and also the officers of the club can meet new members and get to put faces to a name 

When Mentmore closed Whipsnade took on a number of new members and they all grouped together for "Welcome Meetings" the same as what we do - no interview.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2017)

Imurg said:



			And not at all "Elitist".....
We are going to have to have an interview when we join Whipsnade...Not really a problem but, to my mind, not entirely necessary.
All 3 of us are long-standing CONGU handicap holders and Club Members.
CVG's been playing nearly 40 years, I've played for nearly 25 and Fragger for a few less....Probably nigh on 80 years between us.
We know how to play and behave. We have a decent grasp on the rules and follow the ettiquette of the game...And we have money!
We've gathered enough info from the Pro and some Members to have worked out that the club meets what needs we have. The above shows that we will meet the requirements of the club. 
Job done.
Or should be.
Not really a rant as I've no problem with the system if that's what the Club requires.
But it might put off a total newbie.
My first club was a " money on the table, fill in form, here's your bag tag" system. - perfect for newbies.
There needs to be clubs at this level, ones that are that easy to join.
There's a place for all systems though...
		
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Is the interview prior to you handing over money or post joining?


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## Imurg (Jan 5, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Is the interview prior to you handing over money or post joining?
		
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Finding out tomorrow Paul. Going cash in hand just in case&#128077;


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 5, 2017)

Imurg said:



			Finding out tomorrow Paul. Going cash in hand just in case&#128077;
		
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Used notes of course


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## Imurg (Jan 5, 2017)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Used notes of course
		
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Naturally.....&#128513;


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 5, 2017)

Imurg said:



			Finding out tomorrow Paul. Going cash in hand just in case&#128077;
		
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If it's prior to the handing over of cash, get in before your brother, that way you're bound to look good :ears:


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 5, 2017)

Imurg said:



			Naturally.....&#128513;
		
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I assume Bro won't be paying in pennies? He's a reputation for being financially prudent


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## guest100718 (Jan 5, 2017)

who wants an interview.. I just want to play golf.


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## Slab (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			In your hypothetical situation, it is hardly an inhibitor to you joining though. A simple email or phone call to the GM explaining you are interested in joining but don't know any members. I'm sure he would be delighted to hear from you.

I think some people overcomplicate a pretty straightforward process.
		
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I know the threads moved on but cant help wondering if we know enough to really say if it is a pretty straightforward process

If a local has to get a proposer, seconder that they've known for years, apply, interview, etc etc why would someone moving into the area just have to drop an e-mail to the GM

It kinda means that the simple e-mail to the GM, is probably only the kick off to an even more rigorous joining process 
(after all why would it be any easier than whatever the standard process is for a local person)


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## Canmore (Jan 6, 2017)

Slab said:



			I know the threads moved on but cant help wondering if we know enough to really say if it is a pretty straightforward process

If a local has to get a proposer, seconder that they've known for years, apply, interview, etc etc why would someone moving into the area just have to drop an e-mail to the GM

It kinda means that the simple e-mail to the GM, is probably only the kick off to an even more rigorous joining process 
(after all why would it be any easier than whatever the standard process is for a local person)
		
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It allows them to be flexible - find you a couple of proposers or even have the committee act as proposers (effectively waiving the requirement).  If they have places available, they will find a way to help.  The membership process is usually written into the club rules so has to be adhered to - but the GM will most likely try to help.

at then the of the day it is bureaucracy and a perceived barrier to entry, but it is not usually insurmountable 

I think things have moved on - 30 years ago as a junior joining a club I had no connection, aside from a couple of school mates, I was interviewed.   Now that could be argued as being over the top


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## Slab (Jan 6, 2017)

Canmore said:



			It allows them to be flexible - find you a couple of proposers or even have the committee act as proposers (effectively waiving the requirement).  If they have places available, they will find a way to help.  The membership process is usually written into the club rules so has to be adhered to - but the GM will most likely try to help.

at then the of the day it is bureaucracy and a perceived barrier to entry, but it is not usually insurmountable 

I think things have moved on - 30 years ago as a junior joining a club I had no connection, aside from a couple of school mates, I was interviewed.   Now that could be argued as being over the top
		
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Yeah it was more the perception that a mail to the GM and you're in, when the reality is that's just the start point to the process any perspective member will go through with alternatives to proposer etc will be needed 

As you say its a perceived barrier a lot of the time but when you're looking up clubs on the web then that perception of a clubs membership process, dress code and even the style/quality of the website itself can either be a help or a hindrance in getting new members to come along

The fact that any bad clubs/joining processes/websites/perceptions exist, is a problem with golf 
(although it'll never be perfect)


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## chip barm (Jan 6, 2017)

guest100718 said:



			who wants an interview.. I just want to play golf.
		
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but the interview allows the club to reject you if you're a 'criminal etc' and from what i can gather, that decision would be solely based on whether they thought you might be or might have been a criminal at some point. given they have no way of finding this information out.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 6, 2017)

chip barm said:



			but the interview allows the club to reject you if you're a 'criminal etc' and from what i can gather, that decision would be solely based on whether they thought you might be or might have been a criminal at some point. given they have no way of finding this information out.
		
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when I join a club one day and I'm asked to interview I'll hide my swag bag


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## londonlewis (Jan 6, 2017)

Reemul said:



			Not necessarily, I may wish to visit for a look round but maybe I have played there as a guest or member before or maybe I just want to join. As mentioned anything that looks like a block or issue puts off the potential joiner so an option rather than a must would be enough.

Again the trick is not looking at it from your perspective but from everyone's and many just can't do that. It's all if it's ok for me then it should be ok for everyone else doesn't really work for anyone but the person thinking that.
		
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Quite ironic then as you are dismissing quite a lot of perspectives...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 6, 2017)

Slab said:



			I know the threads moved on but cant help wondering if we know enough to really say if it is a pretty straightforward process

If a local has to get a proposer, seconder that they've known for years, apply, interview, etc etc why would someone moving into the area just have to drop an e-mail to the GM

It kinda means that the simple e-mail to the GM, is probably only the kick off to an even more rigorous joining process 
(after all why would it be any easier than whatever the standard process is for a local person)
		
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I think you misunderstand the process. It has nothing to do with whether or not you are local, it is to do with whether or not you know any members. If you know a member, ask them to propose you. If you don't then contact the GM and explain you want to join.


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## londonlewis (Jan 6, 2017)

Reemul said:



			Not necessarily, I may wish to visit for a look round but maybe I have played there as a guest or member before or maybe I just want to join. As mentioned anything that looks like a block or issue puts off the potential joiner so an option rather than a must would be enough.

Again the trick is not looking at it from your perspective but from everyone's and many just can't do that. It's all if it's ok for me then it should be ok for everyone else doesn't really work for anyone but the person thinking that.
		
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Been thinking about this and I really don't see it from this point of view. If you really want to join a golf club you aren't going to be put off because someone asks you to sit down to have a chat.


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## Canmore (Jan 6, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			Been thinking about this and I really don't see it from this point of view. If you really want to join a golf club you aren't going to be put off because someone asks you to sit down to have a chat.
		
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Totally agree - perceived barriers which are accentuated by people's actions and approach

you are trying to join someone else's club - surely you need to make an effort?

Otherwise it's called buying a season ticket at a pay and play!


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## Slab (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I think you misunderstand the process. It has nothing to do with whether or not you are local, it is to do with whether or not you know any members. If you know a member, ask them to propose you. If you don't then contact the GM and explain you want to join.
		
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yeah I think you get the point though 
A local is more likely to know existing members over someone moving into the area but swap 'local' for 'know members' and 'new to area' with 'don't know members'

Either way I suspect a mail to the GM isn't the process in its entirety so we don't really know if hoops exist or not


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 6, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			If you really want to join a golf club you aren't going to be put off because someone asks you to sit down to have a chat.
		
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Absolutely true but people like to just whinge against the establishment. They seem to ignore the fact that it is also an opportunity for them to ask questions and find out if that particular club is right for them. 3 months after joining they will probably complain that nobody explained the booking system/how to enter comps/frequency of rollups etc to them, all things you get the chance to ask at an interview


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 6, 2017)

Slab said:



			yeah I think you get the point though 
A local is more likely to know existing members over someone moving into the area but swap 'local' for 'know members' and 'new to area' with 'don't know members'

Either way I suspect a mail to the GM isn't the process in its entirety so we don't really know if hoops exist or not
		
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I've moved around a bit during my working career and joined several different clubs as a result. I have NEVER found the joining process either complicated or inhibitive. People just like to moan and the bottom line is they are only depriving themselves from the benefits of joining a club.

Whether you are local or not, know any members or not, joining a club is not difficult.


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## Reemul (Jan 6, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			Quite ironic then as you are dismissing quite a lot of perspectives...
		
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Nope, you obviously didn't read the post in it's entirety or understand it.

I say it should be an OPTION in my post, not a must, that way it caters to both sides, those that want an interview or look round with a member and those that don't, while you think they should just be happy they need to have one regardless and if it intimidates or puts people off well that's tough.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 6, 2017)

Can somebody please explain why they think having an interview to join a golf club is an issue?


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## Reemul (Jan 6, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			Been thinking about this and I really don't see it from this point of view. If you really want to join a golf club you aren't going to be put off because someone asks you to sit down to have a chat.
		
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Again, I don't agree, there are many people who are nervous in general, getting out meeting new people etc is tough. I play golf with 2 guys who will only play 2 local courses because doing anything else is outside their comfort zone, they don't want to join they just want to turn up, pay heads down and play nothing else at all. Me I work in management and spend all day dealing with people, couldn't give a crap, would have no issue sitting in front of 100 strangers and speaking up.

The problem is we all use our feelings as if they are everyone else's and sadly they are not. Take today, my 10 year old son is excited because he is doing a reading at church in front of the whole congregation, yet my wife would never do that yet is a school teacher and has no issue dealing with 30 kids every day. My wife won't do refunds and anything at all that deals with strangers unless she really has too, she would choose the no option. For people that don't feel that way mostly have no understanding of this and dismiss it out of hand. That is the issue.

I am speaking to the guy next door to me as I type this and he is the shy and retiring type and he just said, he wouldn't do an interview, first thing he said was what would I wear, it is not the same for everyone and the real issue is who do we make it manageable for those that are not used to the situation rather than those that are.


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## ger147 (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Can somebody please explain why they think having an interview to join a golf club is an issue?
		
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IMO it's the term "interview", as the normal connatations are with applying for a job and therefore being judged etc.

I wouldn't join a club now that doesn't have an "interview" as there are several things that are key to my enjoyment that I would want to ask about, but perhaps the name needs changed as of course in most cases it isn't an interview at all.


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## Qwerty (Jan 6, 2017)

There's no way I'd join a club without having an interview, I'll be asking them more questions than they're asking me.

For me a reasonable course is just part of it, I want to make sure there isn't ...low numbers in the comps, lack of comps, poor sign up system, too many car park Golfers, poor food or caterers that are never there, lack of roll ups, Duration of mats in winter, packet of crisps policy..Bowl or bag. 
Questions need to be asked!


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## CMNI (Jan 6, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			Been thinking about this and I really don't see it from this point of view. If you really want to join a golf club you aren't going to be put off because someone asks you to sit down to have a chat.
		
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In your opinion.  When I have to pay, when I have a wide open choice, why should I need interviewed?


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## Coffey (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Can somebody please explain why they think having an interview to join a golf club is an issue?
		
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You need to think of this from the point of view of someone who is taking up the sport. They have maybe played a few par 3 courses and spent time at the range but are not confident in their ability and the rules etc. They now want to take up the game a bit more seriously, they have heard all of the stories about golf being elitist and how clubs can be very picky etc. They try and join and club are told of the process. As a new golfer this is completely off putting. Having to go through all the stages as if you are going for a job when in reality you are paying to be there. 

I have been playing golf for 3 years now and went through this exact thought process before joining my club. Obviously looking back on it now, there was nothing to worry about.

I feel interview is a strong word and should be changed to welcome chat or something as interview comes across as if you are going to be questioned about everything and all your answers written down and graded. (which was not the case for my 'interview')

For people who are already golfers and have experience of being part of a club they know this process is not difficult and 99% of people will be accepted but from the outside this is not the perception, people see joining clubs to be difficult and always see them as being posh and elitist. 

There is a massive difference between moving between clubs and starting golf afresh and looking for your new club. From personal experience, trying to convince a casual golfer to get involved in a club is difficult as they feel they are not good enough. Trying to explain that everyone is there to have fun and not judge (well may be some) is very difficult.

My club has an 'Introduction to golf' membership which makes the whole joining process a lot more friendly and we had around 75 new members last season and is being run again this season.


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## Reemul (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Can somebody please explain why they think having an interview to join a golf club is an issue?
		
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That's the thing, because it isn't issue for you, you cannot see why it may be an issue for anyone else either, that is why some clubs seem unapproachable to some.

Golf as a beginner c an be tough, all the gear, all the rules, etiquette etc, add in stuffy club, interviews, knowing or not knowing members and so on and it becomes more than one thing that can and does put people off.

All I think is the more approachable we make it for everyone the better, more members, more players and a healthier game.


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## londonlewis (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			3 months after joining they will probably complain that nobody explained the booking system/how to enter comps/frequency of rollups etc to them, all things you get the chance to ask at an interview  

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I agree entirely. 
I've been spoiled for choice in Surrey for places to play so have never joined a club. But I am going to be moving house this year to Cambridgeshire so will have more limited range of places to play. So my plan is to join a club. But I want to make sure it is right for me, so I'd like to have the opportunity to sit down with someone to understand what the club is like. 

Things like; 
What's the make up of the members? 
When do people typically play? 
Do people tend to socialise or just play golf then go home? 
How do things work - like the booking system / comps? 
If I rock up on a weekend, how likely is it there will be someone to play with? 
how does the course hold up in the hot of summer / cold of winter? Ever have to use temporary greens? Does the course drain well? 
What can I expect if I join this club? 
Is there anything else I should be aware of as I have never been a member of a club before... 

So many things you can't find out by just doing a bit of research


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## CMNI (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Can somebody please explain why they think having an interview to join a golf club is an issue?
		
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It's not an issue, this was brought up as it is something new people to golf find intimidating and off putting.


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## londonlewis (Jan 6, 2017)

Reemul said:



			Nope, you obviously didn't read the post in it's entirety or understand it.

I say it should be an OPTION in my post, not a must, that way it caters to both sides, those that want an interview or look round with a member and those that don't, while you think they should just be happy they need to have one regardless and if it intimidates or puts people off well that's tough.
		
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Banks should give customers the option of providing financial data or not when they are making a decision as to whether to award a mortgage. Otherwise it might put some people off applying. 

What are these golfers worried about? Being turned away? Not being allowed to join the club? Are they that afraid of rejection?


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## Reemul (Jan 6, 2017)

I just want to add another thing from personal experience. I belong to a local par 3 golf course and sports club. I am a member, my father in law and mother in law are members. On 28th of December I took my 2 sons aged 6 and 10 to the club for a round with the in laws.

I went in paid for the kids, both have golf clubs, bags, trolleys and the correct gear. When we were on the first Tee the elderly club captain turned up in his car and got out and stomped over. He started asking had we paid, had we paid for this kids and what were we doing. Now 3 of the 6 players were members and were displaying membership badges on our bags and the other 3 had paid tags on their bags. Both the in laws play in the weekly comps and Texas scrambles so are known yet the attitude sucked.

If I wasn't a member I certainly would not want to become one with the attitude shown. It really sucked


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## Reemul (Jan 6, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			Banks should give customers the option of providing financial data or not when they are making a decision as to whether to award a mortgage. Otherwise it might put some people off applying. 

What are these golfers worried about? Being turned away? Not being allowed to join the club? Are they that afraid of rejection?
		
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It doesn't matter what puts them off, the fact it does is enough isn't it even if it is a stupid reason or even an unreasonable reason it is still off putting for some.

To be fair I feel I am banging my head against a brick wall, those that don't understand don't seem to want to and the guy sat next to said, you are wasting your time replying.

Which maybe sums up some of the issues failing golf clubs maybe have in attracting new members who may be new to golf.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 6, 2017)

In regards the "interview process" some clubs may have during the membership introduction if someone is really worried about then surely the simple thing to do is - ask the club Sec what it entails - mainly its more about the club officers getting to know the new member.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 6, 2017)

CMNI said:



			It's not an issue, this was brought up as it is something new people to golf find intimidating and off putting.
		
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Good, I'm glad it's not an issue. Even as a beginner it didn't put me off joining a club.


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## Radbourne2010 (Jan 6, 2017)

Titleist 905d. Best driver I've ever used to date... ne: 


shivas irons said:



			This...a mate wanted to start playing again after selling his gear some years back, recently he bought a Titleist 905d,Titleist 980f,Titleist 975f,Titleist 735cm's 3-pw,52,56 vokeys and a Scotty platinium,all in really good nick and bought seperatly for a total cost of Â£150,all quality equiptment and would have cost around Â£1500 when new,add to that local 7 day membership at a decent course for Â£60 a month where there was no joining on fee done to encourage membership and his golf starts to be a very inexpensive pastime.
		
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## londonlewis (Jan 6, 2017)

Reemul said:



			Again, I don't agree, there are many people who are nervous in general, getting out meeting new people etc is tough. I play golf with 2 guys who will only play 2 local courses because doing anything else is outside their comfort zone, they don't want to join they just want to turn up, pay heads down and play nothing else at all. Me I work in management and spend all day dealing with people, couldn't give a crap, would have no issue sitting in front of 100 strangers and speaking up.

The problem is we all use our feelings as if they are everyone else's and sadly they are not. Take today, my 10 year old son is excited because he is doing a reading at church in front of the whole congregation, yet my wife would never do that yet is a school teacher and has no issue dealing with 30 kids every day. My wife won't do refunds and anything at all that deals with strangers unless she really has too, she would choose the no option. For people that don't feel that way mostly have no understanding of this and dismiss it out of hand. That is the issue.

I am speaking to the guy next door to me as I type this and he is the shy and retiring type and he just said, he wouldn't do an interview, first thing he said was what would I wear, it is not the same for everyone and the real issue is who do we make it manageable for those that are not used to the situation rather than those that are.
		
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So what do these people do when they want to get a job? Send in their CV and just say 'please hire me without interviewing me in person because I just can't face having to speak to someone about the role and my skill set'. 

You can't live your life without having to do things that you aren't comfortable with. 

I'm not a fan of talking to my neighbours as I spend my whole working life having to speak to people constantly so I like a break when I am at home. Doesn't mean I don't talk to my neighbours at all though


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## londonlewis (Jan 6, 2017)

CMNI said:



			In your opinion.  When I have to pay, when I have a wide open choice, why should I need interviewed?
		
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Same theory for getting a job though. You have lots of choice as to where you work but you still need to find out if the company and role is a good fit for you. It's a two way process. The golf club is assessing you and you are assessing the golf club.


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## Radbourne2010 (Jan 6, 2017)

I'm in the process of applying to Gog Magog www.gogmagog.co.uk which is 18 miles from my home but open all year with two courses & fantastic practice facilities. Fed up with my local (6 miles away) course being flooded all the time. Well worth a look if you're moving to Cambridge. Good luck with it all...


londonlewis said:



			I agree entirely. 
I've been spoiled for choice in Surrey for places to play so have never joined a club. But I am going to be moving house this year to Cambridgeshire so will have more limited range of places to play. So my plan is to join a club. But I want to make sure it is right for me, so I'd like to have the opportunity to sit down with someone to understand what the club is like. 

Things like; 
What's the make up of the members? 
When do people typically play? 
Do people tend to socialise or just play golf then go home? 
How do things work - like the booking system / comps? 
If I rock up on a weekend, how likely is it there will be someone to play with? 
how does the course hold up in the hot of summer / cold of winter? Ever have to use temporary greens? Does the course drain well? 
What can I expect if I join this club? 
Is there anything else I should be aware of as I have never been a member of a club before... 

So many things you can't find out by just doing a bit of research
		
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## londonlewis (Jan 6, 2017)

Reemul said:



			That's the thing, because it isn't issue for you, you cannot see why it may be an issue for anyone else either, that is why some clubs seem unapproachable to some.

Golf as a beginner c an be tough, all the gear, all the rules, etiquette etc, add in stuffy club, interviews, knowing or not knowing members and so on and it becomes more than one thing that can and does put people off.

All I think is the more approachable we make it for everyone the better, more members, more players and a healthier game.
		
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I am sure you are not implying that all clubs that have an interview are a stuffy club but that's what you use the interview for; to find out what type of club it is and whether you want to join.


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## londonlewis (Jan 6, 2017)

Reemul said:



			It doesn't matter what puts them off, the fact it does is enough isn't it even if it is a stupid reason or even an unreasonable reason it is still off putting for some.

To be fair I feel I am banging my head against a brick wall, those that don't understand don't seem to want to and the guy sat next to said, you are wasting your time replying.

Which maybe sums up some of the issues failing golf clubs maybe have in attracting new members who may be new to golf.
		
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I am confident that the reason many of the golf clubs that are struggling is not because they ask potential new members to have an interview. 
I am also confident that any club in that position would address how they attract new members.


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## Slab (Jan 6, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			So what do these people do when they want to get a job? Send in their CV and just say 'please hire me without interviewing me in person because I just can't face having to speak to someone about the role and my skill set'. 

*You can't live your life without having to do things that you aren't comfortable with.* 

I'm not a fan of talking to my neighbours as I spend my whole working life having to speak to people constantly so I like a break when I am at home. Doesn't mean I don't talk to my neighbours at all though
		
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I know its silly, but for some that could be a perceived problem with golf membership interview/application process right there:
_
"You can't be a member at this golf club without having to do things that you aren't comfortable with"_


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## londonlewis (Jan 6, 2017)

Radbourne2010 said:



			I'm in the process of applying to Gog Magog www.gogmagog.co.uk which is 18 miles from my home but open all year with two courses & fantastic practice facilities. Fed up with my local (6 miles away) course being flooded all the time. Well worth a look if you're moving to Cambridge. Good luck with it all...
		
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Thanks for the heads up. My mate's father in law is a member there. Am sure I will play all the local courses before deciding where to join. 
Do you think they'd waive the joining fee? I have a sneaking suspicion they aren't desperate for new members so maybe no leeway on that.


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## Hobbit (Jan 6, 2017)

8 out of 14 clubs I've been a member at have conducted interviews. All bar 1 of those has been of the formal type interview, with 2 giving information like, "you should always call the Captain Mr Captain." And whilst I accept the need to have something in place the thing that has been apparent in my more recent moves is the interviews/meetings are being conducted by well meaning amateurs, with the emphasis on amateur.

Things are, in the main, way better than they were 15-20 years ago but there appears to be very few clubs doing it well but at least they're doing it. 

Being a better player I've rarely struggled to integrate, apart from one recently, but as a new member talking to other new members who might not be so proficient at the game, and awful lot of people are left to sink or swim on their own.

Rather than just look at a raw figure of how many are leaving the game, I'd be very interested to see what the year 1/year 2 retention rates are.


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## londonlewis (Jan 6, 2017)

Slab said:



			I know its silly, but for some that could be a perceived problem with golf membership interview/application process right there:
_
"You can't be a member at this golf club without having to do things that you aren't comfortable with"_ 

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I suppose but why should joining a golf club be different to anything else in life? You can't buy a house without talking to an estate agent, you can't buy a car without talking to a car salesman (in the vast majority of cases) but people often don't enjoy talking to either of these people. 

It must be an incredibly small number of people that fall into the category of 'I won't join a golf club purely because I can't face the idea of having to go through an application process'.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 6, 2017)

Slab said:



			I know its silly, but for some that could be a perceived problem with golf membership interview/application process right there:
_
"You can't be a member at this golf club without having to do things that you aren't comfortable with"_ 

Click to expand...


You can't live life without doing things you are not comfortable with.

Euthanasia sir?


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## Nobadnomad (Jan 6, 2017)

I think for new golfers the fact there is any sort of process is probably quite off putting, for those that have played for some time the process is just like joining a gym.  The issue is more the perception than the reality,problem is the perception is enough to put people off.


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## Slab (Jan 6, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			I suppose but why should joining a golf club be different to anything else in life? You can't buy a house without talking to an estate agent, you can't buy a car without talking to a car salesman (in the vast majority of cases) but people often don't enjoy talking to either of these people. 

It must be an incredibly small number of people that fall into the category of 'I won't join a golf club purely because I can't face the idea of having to go through an application process'.
		
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Yup i'd say its easily the minority but no idea how many folks would freak at the thought of sitting with a couple of committee members for an interview

And since i don't know the number, if i was looking to add members into my club i'd think about making the process as all-encompassing/welcoming as possible (including the wording/naming convention the club used to describe the process) 

A minority of clubs will like the fact they 'vet' applicants and they won't change anytime soon, for the normal clubs they may want to 'rebrand' their new member process to maximise the opportunities that are out there 

On the flip side though, there's lots of ways I can say _'put your head in that lions mouth'_ without it sounding intimidating, doesn't mean you wouldn't still think twice about it


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## CMNI (Jan 6, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			Same theory for getting a job though. You have lots of choice as to where you work but you still need to find out if the company and role is a good fit for you. It's a two way process. The golf club is assessing you and you are assessing the golf club.
		
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It is the complete opposite and thats the point.  

I see a job up for grabs, there is only one spot available, and lots of people want it.  The company is investing in me, so I need to go sell myself.

A golf club that has spaces, that wants my money, if I can pay that should be enough (for most clubs).  It is perhaps the term interview.  

What would seem less daunting would be 1) Leave in your contact details and money.  2) You are now a member.  3) Members induction meeting where you are shown where everything is, how to book etc.  4) Welcome round with captain to show layout of the course.

If you are not sure of the course you would make enquiries prior to step 1,  as this is what everyone would do, but when you are considering joining a club I would like to think you have done your homework on the club beforehand.  

Step 4, being a casual way to meet senior members of a new club, after joining, rather than feeling like your being vetted.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Can somebody please explain why they think having an interview to join a golf club is an issue?
		
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Because those who would not want to attend an interview are rather too full of their own self-importance? 

Only a suggestion as I also don't know - and I don't mind it at all and.  As previously said - I think it's an important part of the 'joining and membership initiation process' as the prospective member is 'confronted' with the fact that they are considering joining a 'club' - with it's attendant benefits and responsibilities to the club and other members and visitors.


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## Robobum (Jan 6, 2017)

For many reasons, seeing "interview" as part of the process will put people off or make them have 2nd thoughts at least. Even though the perception of what is involved in those "interviews " might be miles away from reality.

New member welcome?

Meet the team?

Perhaps it just needs to be packaged and sold in a better way??


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## chip barm (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Even as a beginner it didn't put me off joining a club.
		
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just read the joining form for a club i like paying and playing at. if i was serious, it'd be my first club. i took up golf six months ago. having an interview isn't mandatory there. on the form, they ask if you'd like one. seems reasonable to me and i reckon i'd take them up on it. use it as a chance to find out more about the club and it's members. totally understand that other people might find that situation intimidating though.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 6, 2017)

Robobum said:



			For many reasons, seeing "interview" as part of the process will put people off or make them have 2nd thoughts at least. Even though the perception of what is involved in those "interviews " might be miles away from reality.

New member welcome?

Meet the team?

Perhaps it just needs to be packaged and sold in a better way??
		
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brilliant idea

new members welcome sounds much more informal and probably a more accurate reflection of what the "interview" is meant for

these days all the information can be displayed on websites which some clubs don't use enough of. A new members welcome sounds much better

its like when you join a gym you have an induction show you how to use the equipment where the fire exits are etc. But if you said "interview" would change the perspective completely


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 6, 2017)

CMNI said:



			A golf club that has spaces, that wants my money, if I can pay that should be enough (for most clubs).  It is perhaps the term interview.
		
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I don't think it is enough. If I am about to invest a substantial amount of money (joining fee and subs) into a club then I like to think there is some control over who is allowed to join. The vast majority of people who apply will be admitted but there will always be the odd unsavoury character. There was a guy at my club who had worked his way round most of the clubs in the area, hacking people off and just being generally unpleasant to both playing partners and other members in the clubhouse. He was asked to leave as he spoilt the experience for a lot of people. The interview process is an opportunity to assess these people. He moved out of the area and his reputation caught him up, he was refused entry into the club he tried to join.


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## londonlewis (Jan 6, 2017)

CMNI said:



			It is the complete opposite and thats the point.  

I see a job up for grabs, there is only one spot available, and lots of people want it.  The company is investing in me, so I need to go sell myself.

A golf club that has spaces, that wants my money, if I can pay that should be enough (for most clubs).  It is perhaps the term interview.  

What would seem less daunting would be 1) Leave in your contact details and money.  2) You are now a member.  3) Members induction meeting where you are shown where everything is, how to book etc.  4) Welcome round with captain to show layout of the course.

If you are not sure of the course you would make enquiries prior to step 1,  as this is what everyone would do, but when you are considering joining a club I would like to think you have done your homework on the club beforehand.  

Step 4, being a casual way to meet senior members of a new club, after joining, rather than feeling like your being vetted.
		
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I understand some people suffer from anxiety and this may cause them to be anxious but I am not really convinced you should change your whole approach based on someone's anxiety issues. 
Should we change the way driving tests work because some people can drive but get so nervous during a test that they keep failing?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I don't think it is enough. If I am about to invest a substantial amount of money (joining fee and subs) into a club then I like to think there is some control over who is allowed to join. The vast majority of people who apply will be admitted but there will always be the odd unsavoury character. There was a guy at my club who had worked his way round most of the clubs in the area, hacking people off and just being generally unpleasant to both playing partners and other members in the clubhouse. He was asked to leave as he spoilt the experience for a lot of people. The interview process is an opportunity to assess these people. He moved out of the area and his reputation caught him up, he was refused entry into the club he tried to join.
		
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You need members - you let in a 'known' problem golfer (such as you describe) - you risk losing existing members?  Not a great idea.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 6, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			I understand some people suffer from anxiety and this may cause them to be anxious but I am not really convinced you should change your whole approach based on someone's anxiety issues. 
Should we change the way driving tests work because some people can drive but get so nervous during a test that they keep failing?
		
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Every single situation you have given is completely different from joining a golf club

driving a car? So proving you have the knowledge and skill required to operate a dangerous vechile 

getting a mortgage? So proving you are suitable to lend money to so you don't go into arrears and have to chase for money 

applying for a job? Proving your the best for that role 

none of these are even remotely the same as applying to be a member of a club that is your choice to do. You have to have money to buy a house (mortgage or otherwise) you need a licence to drive (legally) you need to work (unless for obvious reasons you can't.. or are rich)

you don't need to play golf it's an option (which I can understand that owning a house and driving a car are options they are different kinds of options) 

if you say were applying to become a coach of a kids football team (an option) you need to be vetted for obvious reasons (which some are saying the interview in golf does) but because the membership of a club shouldn't matter if you say committed a minor offence years ago it's not the same as being a role model to children. I appreciate what drive4show has been saying about this guy who sounded like an idiot being vetted out but how easy is it to lie in an interview and put on a show?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I don't think it is enough. If I am about to invest a substantial amount of money (joining fee and subs) into a club then I like to think there is some control over who is allowed to join. The vast majority of people who apply will be admitted but there will always be the odd unsavoury character. There was a guy at my club who had worked his way round most of the clubs in the area, hacking people off and just being generally unpleasant to both playing partners and other members in the clubhouse. He was asked to leave as he spoilt the experience for a lot of people. The interview process is an opportunity to assess these people. He moved out of the area and his reputation caught him up, he was refused entry into the club he tried to join.
		
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But even if he's known locally, he may put up a case as a reformed character or give his side of the previous incidents and get let in anyway. The interview process isn't a fail safe. Someone brought up convictions, and again if someone has done wrong before why should they still pay for these mistakes when joining a club for a leisure activity? This is where the elitist tag, not only clubs, but within the membership itself is still rife.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 6, 2017)

HomerJSimpson said:



			But even if he's known locally, he may put up a case as a reformed character or give his side of the previous incidents and get let in anyway. The interview process isn't a fail safe. Someone brought up convictions, and again if someone has done wrong before why should they still pay for these mistakes when joining a club for a leisure activity? This is where the elitist tag, not only clubs, but within the membership itself is still rife.
		
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Exactly homer

imagine an 18 year did drink driving (btw this isn't real it's no way connected to points I got on my licence years ago it's an example) and got say 6 months inside suspended and 12 month ban (see it paper all time)

affects this person getting a job for years

finally as say a 40 year old their grown up don't do this anymore and never have since why should it be used as a reason to exclude them from a pass time?

I am not btw condoning drink driving just an example of a crime that's not a murderer lol


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## CMNI (Jan 6, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			I understand some people suffer from anxiety and this may cause them to be anxious but I am not really convinced you should change your whole approach based on someone's anxiety issues. 
Should we change the way driving tests work because some people can drive but get so nervous during a test that they keep failing?
		
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No because then they are not a confident driver.  But your examples are so wildly off topic they make no sense.

What is the problem: Golf in decline
Question:  Why do you think that it is?

One proposed answer:  Golf is perceived as stuffy and elitest. 
Question: How so? 

Response:  How is it stuffy and elitest? 
Suggested answer:  It seems like you need to break into it rather than be welcomed with open arms.

Question:  How so? 
Suggested answer:  Interview process can be daunting to those who are new to the sport, a sport which is falsely labelled as stuffy and elitest.  If they perceive that it is stuffy and elitest then they may often assume that the interview is tougher than we know it is.  

Thats the important part- we know it isn't tough, but some (NOT ALL) may think I'm not boys club material I won't get in.  Thats how I felt in the beginning so didn't join a club, but rather played around until I got to know the culture, however I see that as a missed opportunity for a club, as I was spending a lot of money getting into the game and if I had found a welcoming club actively seeking newbies with zero experience and offering the chance to learn the game as part of a golfing community I would have been straight down.  I would have likely had all my lessons with that pro, bought my clubs in the shop, and having now got my brother and a friend into golf likely also brought 2 other potential new members along. 

The point remains that it is still a barrier to SOME.


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## CMNI (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I don't think it is enough. If I am about to invest a substantial amount of money (joining fee and subs) into a club then I like to think there is some control over who is allowed to join. The vast majority of people who apply will be admitted but there will always be the odd unsavoury character. There was a guy at my club who had worked his way round most of the clubs in the area, hacking people off and just being generally unpleasant to both playing partners and other members in the clubhouse. He was asked to leave as he spoilt the experience for a lot of people. The interview process is an opportunity to assess these people. He moved out of the area and his reputation caught him up, he was refused entry into the club he tried to join.
		
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Yes but that is your PMC.  If its a club where you can pay and play as much as you want (which tends to be the more common, and certainly the type more likely to attract new players which was the point raised earlier in the thread) then why the need for a drawn out application process?


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## Robobum (Jan 6, 2017)

Interviews do not keep out wronguns!!!

This guy was "interviewed" by our club - it became a running joke for the captain that did it when this came about!!

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/4090094.OXFORD_RAPE__Man_snared_by_his_own_DNA_after_24_years/


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## pauljames87 (Jan 6, 2017)

CMNI said:



			No because then they are not a confident driver.  But your examples are so wildly off topic they makes no sense.

What is the problem: Golf in decline
Question:  Why do you think that it is?

One proposed answer:  Golf is perceived as stuffy and elitest. 
Question: How so? 

Response:  How is it stuffy and elitest? 
Suggested answer:  It seems like you need to break into it rather than be welcomed with open arms.

Question:  How so? 
Suggested answer:  Interview process can be daunting to those who are new to the sport, a sport which is falsely labelled as stuffy and elitest.  If they perceive that it is stuffy and elitest then they may often assume that the interview is tougher than we know it is.  

Thats the important part- we know it isn't tough, but some (NOT ALL) may think I'm not boys club material I won't get in.  Thats how I felt in the beginning so didn't join a club, but rather played around until I got to know the culture, however I see that as a missed opportunity for a club, as I was spending a lot of money getting into the game and if I had found a welcoming club actively seeking newbies with zero experience and offering the chance to learn the game as part of a golfing community I would have been straight down.  I would have likely had all my lessons with that pro, bought my clubs in the shop, and having now got my brother and a friend into golf likely also brought 2 other potential new members along. 

The point remains that it is still a barrier to SOME.
		
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Very good point well made.

there is a club near me I'm toying with joining (Â£25 for a year but you pay green fees) I rang to ask what it entails just turn up pay Â£25 play 3 rounds off the whites hand in the cards and get a handicap you can use in the monthly stableford and obviously an official handicap 

like the idea means I could play in monthly events.. only thing stopping me is expecting baby soon so don't know how much I'll be playing after he/she arrives


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## londonlewis (Jan 6, 2017)

pauljames87 said:



			Every single situation you have given is completely different from joining a golf club

driving a car? So proving you have the knowledge and skill required to operate a dangerous vechile 

getting a mortgage? So proving you are suitable to lend money to so you don't go into arrears and have to chase for money 

applying for a job? Proving your the best for that role 

none of these are even remotely the same as applying to be a member of a club that is your choice to do. You have to have money to buy a house (mortgage or otherwise) you need a licence to drive (legally) you need to work (unless for obvious reasons you can't.. or are rich)

you don't need to play golf it's an option (which I can understand that owning a house and driving a car are options they are different kinds of options) 

if you say were applying to become a coach of a kids football team (an option) you need to be vetted for obvious reasons (which some are saying the interview in golf does) but because the membership of a club shouldn't matter if you say committed a minor offence years ago it's not the same as being a role model to children. I appreciate what drive4show has been saying about this guy who sounded like an idiot being vetted out but how easy is it to lie in an interview and put on a show?
		
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Yes, you are right. They are different.

If you won't provide the right information to a bank - they won't give you a mortgage. Therefore, you rent. 

If you don't pass your driving test - you aren't allowed to drive. Therefore, you find another mode of transport. 

If you won't complete the necessary steps in order to be accepted as a member of a golf club - you don't become a member. Therefore, you pay as you go. 


Everyone appreciates that companies require you to interview in order to get a job. 
Some require multiple interviews, online tests, screening processes, references to be provided before an offer is made, assessment centres etc... some companies have a much more rigorous process than others. Some interviews are informal conversations, where you are assessed for your cultural fit. Others are competency / technical based where you are grilled on your competence to perform the tasks involved in the role. Therefore, some companies can be intimidating to join and others aren't. You have a choice as to where you want to work, just like you have a choice as to where you want to play golf. 

And since when should a member's club be an open door for anyone that wants to join? 
It seems like people's aversion to the membership process at a golf club revolves around one key issue; it puts introverts off. If you really want something enough, you'll find a way of getting it.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 6, 2017)

HomerJSimpson said:



			But even if he's known locally, he may put up a case as a reformed character or give his side of the previous incidents and get let in anyway. The interview process isn't a fail safe. Someone brought up convictions, and again if someone has done wrong before why should they still pay for these mistakes when joining a club for a leisure activity? This is where the elitist tag, not only clubs, but within the membership itself is still rife.
		
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You are right it isn't a failsafe but I believe it is better than nothing at all?


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## Yer Maw (Jan 6, 2017)

Bit late on the reply front. My perspective is golf will inevitably decline as it falls out of fashion from the Tiger Woods heydays when it was at its peak. The public go round in circles with what they like and these days the scrabble is for running and cycling events which are heavily oversubscribed and sell out as soon as they open. I don't think it should be a popularity contest, but the best golf clubs with the best courses survive and the weakest don't.
Of all the reasons made for the fall off in numbers (not popularity) I think time is the biggest factor. Many have said they enjoy a round of 3-4 hours (perfect time for me as well) when the reality is it can often be much longer due to either a lack of understanding on how to play without delay, or just poorly run courses that don't enforce etiquette on faster play. This one thing can almost ruin a round for me or at least detract from the enjoyment with all the hanging around. 
Clubs need to be very proactive with starters ensuring players know the standard to adhere to and be willing to send out a Marshall to groups who are holding everyone up. The Pros don't help but there is nothing the clubs can do about the Pros so forget them and oversee slow play at club level.


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## londonlewis (Jan 6, 2017)

CMNI said:



			No because then they are not a confident driver.  But your examples are so wildly off topic they make no sense.

What is the problem: Golf in decline
Question:  Why do you think that it is?

One proposed answer:  Golf is perceived as stuffy and elitest. 
Question: How so? 

Response:  How is it stuffy and elitest? 
Suggested answer:  It seems like you need to break into it rather than be welcomed with open arms.

Question:  How so? 
Suggested answer:  Interview process can be daunting to those who are new to the sport, a sport which is falsely labelled as stuffy and elitest.  If they perceive that it is stuffy and elitest then they may often assume that the interview is tougher than we know it is.  

Thats the important part- we know it isn't tough, but some (NOT ALL) may think I'm not boys club material I won't get in.  Thats how I felt in the beginning so didn't join a club, but rather played around until I got to know the culture, however I see that as a missed opportunity for a club, as I was spending a lot of money getting into the game and if I had found a welcoming club actively seeking newbies with zero experience and offering the chance to learn the game as part of a golfing community I would have been straight down.  I would have likely had all my lessons with that pro, bought my clubs in the shop, and having now got my brother and a friend into golf likely also brought 2 other potential new members along. 

The point remains that it is still a barrier to SOME.
		
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Ok. Thanks.


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## ger147 (Jan 6, 2017)

The criminal convictions point is an interesting one.

How do the clubs know? Does your club do a CRB check on all potential new members? If so, do you require photographic ID to ensure personal details supplied are accurate so the CRB check is worthwhile?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 6, 2017)

CMNI said:



			Yes but that is your PMC.  If its a club where you can pay and play as much as you want (which tends to be the more common, and certainly the type more likely to attract new players which was the point raised earlier in the thread) then why the need for a drawn out application process?
		
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To be honest, I really don't care about proprietary clubs. I have been a member of one in the past and the way the members were treated was appalling. I do not want to be a member of a 'club' where my sole purpose is to line the pockets of some businessman. I want to belong and fully integrate into a club where I have a voice in how the club is run, where I know the people in the bar and all the other benefits that a PMC provides.

I'm not slagging off pay and play clubs, just saying they are not my cup of tea. They serve a purpose for many golfers.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 6, 2017)

Why is it then that big courses like Woburn for example are more welcoming to outsiders than some (not all I appreciate that) clubs

for example I find South Herts very snotty whenever we play there. I remember reaching to remove my hat when walking through the clubhouse door (from outside after the round) and being told whilst taking my hat off that I had to remove the hat or go outside


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## CMNI (Jan 6, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			Yes, you are right. They are different.


And since when should a member's club be an open door for anyone that wants to join? 
It seems like people's aversion to the membership process at a golf club revolves around one key issue; it puts introverts off. If you really want something enough, you'll find a way of getting it.
		
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Right you are. If you want it enough you will do it.  

But as you say you pay and play, so you are already welcome at that club and play there often.  What difference is paying for a years worth of access vs paying for a rounds worth?  Other than the club has more security as they have your details, and money guaranteed.  

Why make it a more difficult process?  Why make it off putting to SOME? 

We are discussing about how to get more members into clubs, surely streamlining the process and shouting from the club house roof "COME PLAY HERE, WE ARE LOVELY!"  is better than being reclusive and hoping someone will come along, so adamant they want to be in your club, that they peel their way through all the tape.  

Again I am talking about smaller struggling local clubs opposed to the top clubs that have waiting lists and are in high demand (obviously if its one in one out membership interviews and vetting is much more important- but will a 25-30YO novice really imagine walking up to Royal County Down and getting a full membership with their starter set from sports direct?)


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## pauljames87 (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			To be honest, I really don't care about proprietary clubs. I have been a member of one in the past and the way the members were treated was appalling. I do not want to be a member of a 'club' where my sole purpose is to line the pockets of some businessman. I want to belong and fully integrate into a club where I have a voice in how the club is run, where I know the people in the bar and all the other benefits that a PMC provides.

I'm not slagging off pay and play clubs, just saying they are not my cup of tea. They serve a purpose for many golfers.
		
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That's actually a very good point that I hadn't considered . My old club was constantly busy and I played other day on a freezing day and it was still waiting on every hole. Par 5 you had a group on green a group 200 yards from green and us on the tee you are very much lining the owners pocket rather than feeling like part of a club


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 6, 2017)

pauljames87 said:



*Why is it then that big courses like Woburn for example are more welcoming to outsiders than some (not all I appreciate that) clubs*

for example I find South Herts very snotty whenever we play there. I remember reaching to remove my hat when walking through the clubhouse door (from outside after the round) and being told whilst taking my hat off that I had to remove the hat or go outside
		
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Because it is a business and only interested in your money?


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## CMNI (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			To be honest, I really don't care about proprietary clubs. I have been a member of one in the past and the way the members were treated was appalling. I do not want to be a member of a 'club' where my sole purpose is to line the pockets of some businessman. I want to belong and fully integrate into a club where I have a voice in how the club is run, where I know the people in the bar and all the other benefits that a PMC provides.

I'm not slagging off pay and play clubs, just saying they are not my cup of tea. They serve a purpose for many golfers.
		
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Then why are you participating in this thread?  This thread is about attracting new people to the sport and retaining them.  

You are throwing up false barriers that are only relevant in your PMC, that is obviously self sustaining and will survive regardless of new golfers taking up the game.  Your point may be a good one for your club, and I appreciate that, but it is not relevant to the discussion in this thread, or at least to the point about clubs attracting and retaining new to the game members.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Because it is a business and only interested in your money?
		
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Indeed

however before I started really getting into golf I always worried about being turned away from a course for not having a handicap of 24 that I could prove.

always used to see it on clubs websites 

after playing for a while now I have never had an issue or been asked to prove my handicap but when starting out I was always like oh best not play here


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 6, 2017)

ger147 said:



			The criminal convictions point is an interesting one.

How do the clubs know? Does your club do a CRB check on all potential new members? If so, do you require photographic ID to ensure personal details supplied are accurate so the CRB check is worthwhile?
		
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Clubs wouldn't do a CRB check for potential members as I can't see there being an inherent risk. However if they get involved with the juniors (for example) as I have, arranging and overseeing matches for them, then a CRB will be required and the club should provide this and insist it's completed before the member begins to do this activity. As for run of the mill (as such) convictions, then I don't see the issue or indeed the need to mention it. Again, if for argument sake there is a theft or false accounting conviction and the member get a role involving taking or counting money on a committee etc, then I can see there would be a need for him to declare this at that time. If not, let previous mistakes lie in the past


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## londonlewis (Jan 6, 2017)

CMNI said:



			Right you are. If you want it enough you will do it.  

But as you say you pay and play, so you are already welcome at that club and play there often.  What difference is paying for a years worth of access vs paying for a rounds worth?  Other than the club has more security as they have your details, and money guaranteed.  

Why make it a more difficult process?  Why make it off putting to SOME? 

We are discussing about how to get more members into clubs, surely streamlining the process and shouting from the club house roof "COME PLAY HERE, WE ARE LOVELY!"  is better than being reclusive and hoping someone will come along, so adamant they want to be in your club, that they peel their way through all the tape.  

Again I am talking about smaller struggling local clubs opposed to the top clubs that have waiting lists and are in high demand (obviously if its one in one out membership interviews and vetting is much more important- but will a 25-30YO novice really imagine walking up to Royal County Down and getting a full membership with their starter set from sports direct?)
		
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CMNI said:



			What difference is paying for a years worth of access vs paying for a rounds worth?
		
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If the behaviour of the golfer is not in keeping with the club (an extreme example; picking fights with other players), the club can deny future access to the pay and play visitor. Different approach is necessary for members. 




CMNI said:



			We are discussing about how to get more members into clubs
		
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Not all clubs want or need new members. Not all clubs have problems getting new members. Not all clubs need to even consider changing how they currently accept new members. 

Some people call this being elitist. They are a business. They run their business how they deem fit. 



CMNI said:



			Again I am talking about smaller struggling local clubs
		
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I think this is the first time you have ever specified this. I may be wrong. 
Now that you have specified it, do you have any actual examples of a club that is struggling but won't change how they attract members? I am pretty confident that these are the clubs that tend to flex their approach immediately (i.e. waive a joining fee, offer more flexible membership programmes etc...). 




CMNI said:



			opposed to the top clubs that have waiting lists and are in high demand (obviously if its one in one out membership interviews and vetting is much more important
		
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So you are saying that interviews and vetting in this example is fine. So you don't always have a problem with it? Only if a golf club is struggling for members or struggling financially? That's confusing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 6, 2017)

pauljames87 said:



			Why is it then that big courses like Woburn for example are more welcoming to outsiders than some (not all I appreciate that) clubs

for example I find South Herts very snotty whenever we play there. I remember reaching to remove my hat when walking through the clubhouse door (from outside after the round) and being told whilst taking my hat off that I had to remove the hat or go outside
		
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Because you are paying a lot more to Woburn - I know plenty members of the place who believe the club takes more interest in the corporate and society people than the member

And to be a member you need to jump through the "hoops" you are all talking about


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## londonlewis (Jan 6, 2017)

CMNI said:



			Then why are you participating in this thread?  This thread is about attracting new people to the sport and retaining them.  

You are throwing up false barriers that are only relevant in your PMC, that is obviously self sustaining and will survive regardless of new golfers taking up the game.  Your point may be a good one for your club, and I appreciate that, but it is not relevant to the discussion in this thread, or at least to the point about clubs attracting and retaining new to the game members.
		
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This thread is about 'the problem with golf', not just about attracting new people to the sport and retaining them.


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## fundy (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			To be honest, I really don't care about proprietary clubs. I have been a member of one in the past and the way the members were treated was appalling. I do not want to be a member of a 'club' where my sole purpose is to line the pockets of some businessman. I want to belong and fully integrate into a club where I have a voice in how the club is run, where I know the people in the bar and all the other benefits that a PMC provides.

I'm not slagging off pay and play clubs, just saying they are not my cup of tea. They serve a purpose for many golfers.
		
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Out of curiosity, what would you say is unacceptable in a potential member that you would like to see them turned away from "your" club for?

Are there certain professions/jobs etc that you would deem unacceptable for eg? Or is it appearance? Or attitude?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 6, 2017)

CMNI said:



			Then why are you participating in this thread?  This thread is about attracting new people to the sport and retaining them.  

You are throwing up false barriers that are only relevant in your PMC, that is obviously self sustaining and will survive regardless of new golfers taking up the game.  Your point may be a good one for your club, and I appreciate that, but it is not relevant to the discussion in this thread, or at least to the point about clubs attracting and retaining new to the game members.
		
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I'm not throwing up any barriers, in fact I am trying to help break them down by trying to clarify the joining process. Also bear in mind that 'P&P' and proprietary clubs are the feeder clubs for PMC's and they have a part to play in attracting the right sort of people into the game.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 6, 2017)

CMNI said:



			Then why are you participating in this thread?  This thread is about attracting new people to the sport and retaining them.  

You are throwing up false barriers that are only relevant in your PMC, that is obviously self sustaining and will survive regardless of new golfers taking up the game.  Your point may be a good one for your club, and I appreciate that, but it is not relevant to the discussion in this thread, or at least to the point about clubs attracting and retaining new to the game members.
		
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When we had a short fall of members and we were doing surveys of why people weren't  joining the club the main reasons were 

Cost and Time 

Not one single person has said "the joining process" 

We had interviews and that didn't turn people away 

A joining process imo would only really stop .1 % of people to start playing golf - if that. 

The two main reasons will always be imo cost and time 

We have got a full membership now and a waiting list from being over a hundred short 2 years ago - because we targeted newer golfer through discounted membership fees under a certain age , bringing in an academy trial 6 month membership and focusing on improving the standard of the golf course - if you have the product that people want to play then they won't care about any joining process 

We had people join from the local pay and play and they liked the welcome meetings that we now do - it allows them to ask multiple questions before they pull the trigger - they preferred that than the pay the fee then just go out


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 6, 2017)

fundy said:



			Out of curiosity, what would you say is unacceptable in a potential member that you would like to see them turned away from "your" club for?

Are there certain professions/jobs etc that you would deem unacceptable for eg? Or is it appearance? Or attitude?
		
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Certainly not profession, colour, creed etc. I wouldn't like to see a hardened threatening criminal join my club. Would you challenge him on a rules infringement during the monthly medal?  Or perhaps a known thief when you are leaving belongings unattended in the locker room? Or even someone who has a track record of getting drunk and obnoxious who would spoil social evenings for other members? 

I consider my club to be somewhere I can go to relax and enjoy myself in a civilised, non threatening environment.


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## fundy (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Certainly not profession, colour, creed etc. I wouldn't like to see a hardened threatening criminal join my club. Would you challenge him on a rules infringement during the monthly medal?  Or perhaps a known thief when you are leaving belongings unattended in the locker room? Or even someone who has a track record of getting drunk and obnoxious who would spoil social evenings for other members? 

I consider my club to be somewhere I can go to relax and enjoy myself in a civilised, non threatening environment.
		
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makes sense, not quite sure how you weed all those out in the joining process though


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I don't think it is enough. If I am about to invest a substantial amount of money (joining fee and subs) into a club then I like to think there is some control over who is allowed to join. The vast majority of people who apply will be admitted but there will always be the odd unsavoury character. There was a guy at my club who had worked his way round most of the clubs in the area, hacking people off and just being generally unpleasant to both playing partners and other members in the clubhouse. He was asked to leave as he spoilt the experience for a lot of people. The interview process is an opportunity to assess these people. He moved out of the area and his reputation caught him up, he was refused entry into the club he tried to join.
		
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So it was irrelevant how many questions he had for them then as it seems his interview was pre-determined.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 6, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			So it was irrelevant how many questions he had for them then as it seems his interview was pre-determined.
		
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The guy in question was actually a country member at a club in Devon. When he left my club and moved down there he asked to convert to full member but because of his track record of hacking off other members his application was refused so he had to join a neighbouring club. 

So yes, I guess the interview (if he got that far) was pre-determined.


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## CMNI (Jan 6, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			If the behaviour of the golfer is not in keeping with the club (an extreme example; picking fights with other players), the club can deny future access to the pay and play visitor. Different approach is necessary for members. 

Not all clubs want or need new members. Not all clubs have problems getting new members. Not all clubs need to even consider changing how they currently accept new members. 

Some people call this being elitist. They are a business. They run their business how they deem fit. 



I think this is the first time you have ever specified this. I may be wrong. 
Now that you have specified it, do you have any actual examples of a club that is struggling but won't change how they attract members? I am pretty confident that these are the clubs that tend to flex their approach immediately (i.e. waive a joining fee, offer more flexible membership programmes etc...). 




So you are saying that interviews and vetting in this example is fine. So you don't always have a problem with it? Only if a golf club is struggling for members or struggling financially? That's confusing.
		
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1) This thread moved from changing the game to how can we attract and retain players early on, without changing the game itself.

2) Not all clubs want new members, I agree.  If a club has members spaces available then they are seeking new players in the vast majority.  

3) Someone else mentioned clubs struggling and closing etc this is when the topic of attracting new players was opened, along with perceived barriers- sorry for assuming you had read the thread. 

4) Interviews and vetting was suggested as a barrier to people joining and putting them off.  If a club has a waiting list, then they are not concerned with who is put off, so interview away - you could gauge long term commitment from an interview or what the proposed member brings to the already full club.  

If a club has plenty of space then why the need for this process which MAY put SOME people off?

5) My current club is not struggling at all, they have about 60% membership capacity.  Anyone who goes along and joins will get in no doubt- but my point has always been about those who get put off by what they may think as they are new to the game and while the club has relaxed some rules and now welcomes more Pay and Play, some things are still in place that put me off in the first place, as I was unaware of all the smoke and mirrors.  

We have a self employed painter decorator as a past captain who smokes like a train, drives an old Rover and is a top bloke and great ambassador for the club.  Nothing wrong with that, but if you walked into your town stopped a random person and asked them to describe the type of person that would be a golf club captain they will more than likely go for a retired professional, who drives a Range, cooks breakfast on the AGA and enjoys the finer things in life.  My point here is the game for all we love it, is NOT how its is perceived to the many.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 6, 2017)

fundy said:



			makes sense, not quite sure how you weed all those out in the joining process though
		
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Neither am I but I know that club managers all talk to each other so maybe word of mouth and individual reputation. As I say, the process is far from perfect but I strongly believe that some form of interview protects the club for the majority.


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## Qwerty (Jan 6, 2017)

Reading through the thread it appears the biggest problem is the perception of Golf clubs from newish Golfers.

Putting the small minority of high end uber private clubs aside ..is there actually a problem or is it purely perception of what might be with the reality being totally different..

Apart from Dishing out Group hugs and some nice biscuits before handing out the bag tags I don't see what more clubs can do.
Its only my opinion but Ive been a member of 5 clubs in 16 yrs. Ive had interviews/Welcome chats/ A play in or whatever you want to call it. Everytime it's been informative, welcoming and friendly. 
Ok, there's still a few stuffy types out there, that's just life.. out of 300-500 members are you ever going to find any establishment/club full of like minded people?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Certainly not profession, colour, creed etc. I wouldn't like to see a hardened threatening criminal join my club. Would you challenge him on a rules infringement during the monthly medal?  Or perhaps a known thief when you are leaving belongings unattended in the locker room? Or even someone who has a track record of getting drunk and obnoxious who would spoil social evenings for other members? 

I consider my club to be somewhere I can go to relax and enjoy myself in a civilised, non threatening environment.
		
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See I find that a litle off. People may have made errors in the past and yet to seem determined to label them once a crim always a crim. People do change and to be fair how would you ever know they had a record. It's rarely brought up at interviews or on application forms. I prefer to treat people as I find them and given them the benefit, at least initially. If someone does steal or fight then surely it's a matter for the police and the club would have internal disciplinary measures in place. I just find this sort of reaction rather patronising and elitist. Have you never made mistakes or done things you regret (and by you I mean in a general forum capacity - this isn't directed directly at you - just the attitude itself)


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 6, 2017)

HomerJSimpson said:



			See I find that a litle off. People may have made errors in the past and yet to seem determined to label them once a crim always a crim. People do change and to be fair how would you ever know they had a record. It's rarely brought up at interviews or on application forms. I prefer to treat people as I find them and given them the benefit, at least initially. If someone does steal or fight then surely it's a matter for the police and the club would have internal disciplinary measures in place. I just find this sort of reaction rather patronising and elitist. Have you never made mistakes or done things you regret (and by you I mean in a general forum capacity - this isn't directed directly at you - just the attitude itself)
		
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So in this day and age of freely available information, you would rather take in a known criminal then kick him out AFTER he has stolen the club's trophies rather than some sort of vetting at the application stage?

Sure people change. We are not talking about someone who got into a drunken brawl 20 years ago, we are talking about people who are known to be bad apples. Given the choice would you really want them in your club?


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## CMNI (Jan 6, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When we had a short fall of members and we were doing surveys of why people weren't  joining the club the main reasons were 

Cost and Time 

Not one single person has said "the joining process" 

We had interviews and that didn't turn people away 

A joining process imo would only really stop .1 % of people to start playing golf - if that. 

The two main reasons will always be imo cost and time
		
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Ok I see your point and vary valid.  

What would be interesting is to survey people who have never played and see what their opinions are.   

While you and I, or any other golfer have played while and time and cost could be a problem for us, there will be a lot of people in our society with plenty of both who are put off from ever picking up a club because of reasons that I and others in the forum have suggested.  The joint process being a very crucial and often in most sports the first thing needed (granted in golf you don't have to join a club, but many people never to play the game will not know this).


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## ScienceBoy (Jan 6, 2017)

Golf is broken, that's a given.

The solution? Maybe it needs to redefine what "fixed" is rather than over extending to make everyone happy.

Established members don't see the problems, why would they, it's fine as it is and I agree. When I was a member and not a parent golf was PERFECT and there was no need to change.

For people coming in new or trying to get back in it's just not fit for purpose. I can't see it being so for another decade... 10 years or more of a club not getting my subs, I want it to just be 3-5 years.

We may need less golf clubs but we needmore variety of clubs, some short, some long, more 9 hole courses etc. Maybe we need more clubs, just less 7000 yard "championship" courses.

Those shorter that do exist need to offer competitions and handicap rather than just a place to play golf.

When we fully understand what fixed is we can see what is REALLY broken.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 6, 2017)

An interview should not be a barrier to anyone taking up Golf, but reading the thread I believe it's more of a perception and terminology issue than anything else, from my point of view I would see the interview as the last link in the chain, I would've already done my homework as to why that was the Club I wanted to join, comps, social side, course etc, so I'd hope to have few or even no questions for the interviewee, 
Some Clubs seem to call it an interview but in truth is a welcome chat and some you simply pay and don't meet anyone.
There is obviously room for all types as people want different things.
Is it off putting for some, imo, yes undoubtebly, but hopefully that is a very small tiny minority.


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## Hobbit (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			So in this day and age of freely available information, you would rather take in a known criminal then kick him out AFTER he has stolen the club's trophies rather than some sort of vetting at the application stage?

Sure people change. We are not talking about someone who got into a drunken brawl 20 years ago, we are talking about people who are known to be bad apples. Given the choice would you really want them in your club?
		
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I get what you're saying Gordon but I'm not sure that the club's process would not be viewed discriminatory under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act. Its questionable...


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 6, 2017)

CMNI said:



			Ok I see your point and vary valid.  

What would be interesting is to survey people who have never played and see what their opinions are.   

Well you and I, or any other golfer have played while and time and cost could be a problem for us, there will be a lot of people in our society with plenty of both who are put off from ever picking up a club because of reasons that I and others in the forum have suggested.  The joint process being a very crucial and often in most sports the first thing needed (granted in golf you don't have to join a club, but many people never to play the game will not know this).
		
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After speaking to people who join via the Academy Membership which is for people who want to take the game up - there main worry is embarrassment of when they duff a shot in front of people and being intimidated  - part of the academy membership is they are encouraged to play on the course during the quieter periods at first. Once they get used to that and if they still want to carry on they then become full members after 6 months. During that 6 months I try to go out and play with them at least once and also we have a number of volunteers HC ranging up to 26 who also play with them. As soon as they realise a Cat 1 player isn't someone to be scared off and will duff a shot and that there are plenty who will duff shots they are then asked if they want to join a roll up and their name given to the main roll up organiser who ensures they integrate well.

Over the past 18 months we have had 28 people start an academy membership - 18 Ladies , 17 which joined full time and 9 out of the ten men are now full time members. 

A joining process is needed to join any club - the process will always be defined by the standard of the club imo and what they want. A PMC want more than just golfers - they want members , people who feel pride in joining a club and being part of something.

I actually don't think golf is any worse off right now than all sports - golf boomed in the 80's and i expect we are now at what you would say normal levels and the golf clubs that are around are the ones that offer a decent standard of golf course


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## Reemul (Jan 6, 2017)

Qwerty said:



			Reading through the thread it appears the biggest problem is the perception of Golf clubs from newish Golfers.

 Putting the small minority of high end uber private clubs aside ..is there actually a problem or is it purely perception of what might be with the reality being totally different..
		
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Yes this, most know it's only perceived and not real, the point is how to overcome it really, like anything once you know it, use it and understand it it is never as intimidating or strange as you first thought it.

The thing is perception for many is a reality and as we all know, people are quick to believe anything they read or hear even without any actual facts to back it up.

There is no doubt though that many people have examples of that stuff, stuck up and some what out dated thinking from being told off for the wrong socks to being treated like a second class citizen. the thing is when that happens in other walks of life say in a shop you just don't go there any more or use a different company, person, supplier etc.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 6, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			I get what you're saying Gordon but I'm not sure that the club's process would not be viewed discriminatory under the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act. Its questionable...
		
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I have no idea how a private club would be legislated in this sort of area. Is blackballing someone considered an offence? Not a clue Brian. As you are aware, clubs blackball someone because they went to the wrong school or live on the wrong side of town or because they drive a Korean car instead of a German one. I'm sure they will be creative in the wording of the rejection letter


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 6, 2017)

Ferndown have an excellent academy membership for newbies to the game. You get the use of the 9 hole course, lessons and access to the club facilities. They run a series of competitions so official handicaps can be attained and the majority of those that take up this membership are all inexperienced players so they can all support each other through the early stages. Sounds like a total win/win situation to me.


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## BomberSRL (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I have no idea how a private club would be legislated in this sort of area. Is blackballing someone considered an offence? Not a clue Brian. As you are aware, clubs blackball someone because they went to the wrong school or live on the wrong side of town or because they drive a Korean car instead of a German one. I'm sure they will be creative in the wording of the rejection letter  

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Never had the pleasure of playing at a course that does this. And I am glad! What an age we live in!


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## londonlewis (Jan 6, 2017)

CMNI said:



			3) Someone else mentioned clubs struggling and closing etc this is when the topic of attracting new players was opened, along with perceived barriers- sorry for assuming you had read the thread.
		
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I have read the thread.


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## CMNI (Jan 6, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			After speaking to people who join via the Academy Membership which is for people who want to take the game up - there main worry is embarrassment of when they duff a shot in front of people and being intimidated.
		
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Yea I 100% agree with this, but what about all those missed punters who never made it to the academy? 

That is the bigger missed opportunity. 

I know a local club to me (not mine), Blackwood has their pro out in schools with plastic clubs in sports halls, and then brings the interested kids along to putting sessions, then a few free group lessons.  From what I have heard they are getting great feedback.  If you think about it they go into a class of 24 7year olds, 24 7 year olds have 48 parents.  48 parents have xxxx friends and family.  

Gets the name out and about, and shows the club in a different light.  Granted this is a great club to do it as they have great restaurant, pro shop, beauticians, huge range with covered bays, full course and a par 3. 

Break down the barriers and attract those who may never thought to try it.


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## CMNI (Jan 6, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			I have read the thread.
		
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Sorry that wasn't aimed at you, the quote aspect messed up it was in response Liverpoolphils questions.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 6, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			A joining process is needed to join any club - the process will always be defined by the standard of the club imo and what they want. A PMC want more than just golfers - they want members , people who feel pride in joining a club and being part of something.
		
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Isn't this the problem though, some clubs hold formal process's because of how they perceive themselves and their standing in the local area, not because of the Course itself, some clubs, unfortunately, still require certain professions or type of member.
We've seen on here that some will also waive the rules for Cat 1's etc,
It's those clubs that sometimes are more about the snobbery than the golf.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 6, 2017)

CMNI said:



			Yea I 100% agree with this, but what about all those missed punters who never made it to the academy? 

That is the bigger missed opportunity. 

I know a local club to me (not mine), Blackwood has their pro out in schools with plastic clubs in sports halls, and then brings the interested kids along to putting sessions, then a few free group lessons.  From what I have heard they are getting great feedback.  If you think about it they go into a class of 24 7year olds, 24 7 year olds have 48 parents.  48 parents have xxxx friends and family.  

Gets the name out and about, and shows the club in a different light.  Granted this is a great club to do it as they have great restaurant, pro shop, beauticians, huge range with covered bays, full course and a par 3. 

Break down the barriers and attract those who may never thought to try it.
		
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Our pros go into the local schools regualry - we host days at the clubs for local schools 

There are lots of iniatives from the EGU in Partnership with Schools and many clubs take this up to try and get kids into golf


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 6, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Isn't this the problem though, some clubs hold formal process's because of how they perceive themselves and their standing in the local area, not because of the Course itself, some clubs, unfortunately, still require certain professions or type of member.
We've seen on here that some will also waive the rules for Cat 1's etc,
It's those clubs that sometimes are more about the snobbery than the golf.
		
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Well if the course isn't at the standard that demands the formal process etc then people won't want to join that club and they will have to change their process. But I would suggest they are in the minority


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## DRW (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Can somebody please explain why they think having an interview to join a golf club is an issue?
		
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Interviews are something you do for jobs, with the Inland Revenue, with the police and so on. There are formal and date back to the old boys clubs or very formal processes. Though I understand that you are buying in the club with most private members clubs(ie you own it).

I can say it put me off and I went for the interview. Bit of long story this.

I wished to join a local course in Essex, I telephoned and spoke to the secretary, and when I said I didn't know anyone to propose/second was basically just fobbed off, was quite rudely spoke to and ended up putting down the phone. However I was really interested in joining this course.

So a couple of weeks later I then decided to do something to prove something or not something to me. and was shocked with what happenned...

So I formally wrote on my firms headed notepaper showing my qualifications, profession and stating what handicap I was and that I had two young children(boy & girl) who wanted to play. He did not realise I had telephoned before. The following day I got a phonecall from the secretary, suddenly it would be great to join as I am an professional and then proceeded to ask about how old Adam was. He was not interested in my daughter at all, even when I said she is quite a bit older and does currently come with me and would join first, he just ignored it all. Anyway he offers me for an interview.

During this interview with him and two other members(who would become my proposer and seconder), I was told what I would have, I would have to use the clubhouse, bring the family up for events, lunch and also play golf with some members(even tho I was playing to single figures) to prove I knew how to play etc. Those were the things that suck in my mind, I know I was quite angry by the time I had left. On walking out of the room, one of the two members walked with me and said something like just ignore him he is a wally and look forward to our round.

I didn't join the club to say the least, I was really shocked by the whole affair and the in your face rudeness of it all (if that is the right description). I know this is one club at a particular moment in time, but I have heard similar stories from people who are members at similar clubs in Essex.

It was very imposing from start to finish and hate to think if I had been new to the game, it would have confirmed everything jo public thinks about it and never enquired again.

We need less barriers to improve golf not what we have or more IMHO

BTW Sorry about the long post, it is not a pleasant memory and hence my previous post drive4show, that I am going to challenge myself to look at things more from your viewpoint. Luckily I currently love the current club I am a member of, very friendly even though not the best golf course in the world, but I only play for fun and enjoyment.

As an example when I join a tennis club I have not had to an interview and this is a small local one, not something like david Lloyd. Similarly when mum/dad looked at the greens bowling(nice!) they did not have to go for an interview.


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## londonlewis (Jan 6, 2017)

"Europe's golf market experienced steady growth in demand and supply for 25 years until its peak which occured in 2009 during the global economic crisis. Prior to this the average annual growth in the number of registered golfers was approx 5% year on year, whereas supply grew by an annual average of 3% year on year. Between 2009 and 2013, golf participation fell by 4%, whereas between 2014-2015 the trend stabilized to a very slight fall to -0.3%" 
*KPMG *_Golf participation report for Europe 2016. 


_"Based on information shared by local golf associations, golf membership continues to become less attractive to non-competitive golfers." 
*KPMG *_Golf participation report for Europe 2016._

"Based on our survey, declines in golf participation were not widely associated with the economic crisis in and after 2008, but they were often attributed to the actual technical difficulty of the game"
*KPMG *_Golf participation report for Europe 2016.

_
Page 13 provides growth initiatives for European golf.  
http://static.golfbenchmark.com/media/3/0/0/4/3004.pdf

I look forward to seeing all of this being pinned back on the joining process and an interview.


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## londonlewis (Jan 6, 2017)

DarrenWilliams said:



			I didn't join the club to say the least, I was really shocked by the whole affair and the in your face rudeness of it all (if that is the right description). I know this is one club at a particular moment in time, but I have heard similar stories from people who are members at similar clubs in Essex.
		
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That was a pretty interesting read. And an example of how it can go wrong. But it read like you based it entirely on your experience of dealing with one individual only. The member that spoke to you on the way out of that meeting sounded like a better indicator of what the club is like when you are actually a member.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 6, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well if the course isn't at the standard that demands the formal process etc then people won't want to join that club and they will have to change their process. But I would suggest they are in the minority
		
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Unfortunately being a member of said club is more of a status symbol.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 6, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			That was a pretty interesting read. And an example of how it can go wrong. But it read like you based it entirely on your experience of dealing with one individual only. The member that spoke to you on the way out of that meeting sounded like a better indicator of what the club is like when you are actually a member.
		
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Unfortunately the member is not the first poc.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 6, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Unfortunately being a member of said club is more of a status symbol.
		
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Then people who are more interested in golf won't bother with the place and would suggest it's very much a minority club and not one to look at as a beacon of how or why people join a golf club


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## DRW (Jan 6, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			That was a pretty interesting read. And an example of how it can go wrong. But it read like you based it entirely on your experience of dealing with one individual only. The member that spoke to you on the way out of that meeting sounded like a better indicator of what the club is like when you are actually a member.
		
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Yeah to be fair, it kind of was, as he was the contact person for the club and the person you have to approach, so should not behave like he did and say what he said, it is probably what he said I had to do, put me off a lot more, than dealing with the guy as I was trying to look beyond him, as I really wished to play at the club.

It was a bad experience and it stopped me looking at any similar private members clubs since, much to my embarrassment to say that. Even though I was then currently a member at a members private club(burnham on crouch, but their interview process was more like a welcome meeting with the club secretary and very informal). 

What is a shame is a lot of the nicest local courses are private members clubs, as they have been around the longest and I have just ignored them from a joining point of view, DOH whos loses out I am not quite sure:mmm:


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 6, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Then people who are more interested in golf won't bother with the place and would suggest it's very much a minority club and not one to look at as a beacon of how or why people join a golf club
		
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But also to be accepted that these clubs still exist!


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## CMNI (Jan 6, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			"Based on information shared by local golf associations, golf membership continues to become less attractive to *non-competitive golfers*." 
*KPMG *_Golf participation report for Europe 2016._

"Based on our survey, *declines in golf participation* were not widely associated with the economic crisis in and after 2008, but they were often attributed to the actual technical difficulty of the game"
*KPMG *_Golf participation report for Europe 2016.
_
Page 13 provides growth initiatives for European golf.  
http://static.golfbenchmark.com/media/3/0/0/4/3004.pdf

I look forward to seeing all of this being pinned back on the joining process and an interview.
		
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All of this relates to those already playing - people like you who play, know the score, and aren't put off by the show. 

It makes zero reference to new players in any of those three statements.

I agree with you, if you know about golf, golf clubs then whats the fuss.  It is those who aren't even willing because the game puts so many off because of the perceived exclusivity that the game does not warrant.  The game can be, and should be played by anyone.  Look at world number 1's life story, not how many people would imagine a pro-golfer coming to be, inspiring stuff (though he probably wouldn't have made it into Drive4shows club as a youth player   )


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 6, 2017)

CMNI said:



			Look at world number 1's life story, not how many people would imagine a pro-golfer coming to be, inspiring stuff (though he probably wouldn't have made it into Drive4shows club as a youth player   )
		
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Who said I was able to get into a club as a youth?


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## BomberSRL (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			Who said I was able to get into a club as a youth?  

Click to expand...

Not sure which one it is you are a member at but Hayling is a lovely track! Never felt overly snobby down there!


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## CMNI (Jan 6, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			I look forward to seeing all of this being pinned back on the joining process and an interview.
		
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Also below quote is directly lifted from page 14 of your link:  

"Limited personal free-time and thenature of the game, competingactivities, and *the sense ofexclusivity in the sport can make **it difficult to entice newcomers to register as members. "*


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 6, 2017)

BomberSRL said:



			Not sure which one it is you are a member at but Hayling is a lovely track! Never felt overly snobby down there!
		
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I'm a member at both  :thup:


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## BomberSRL (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I'm a member at both  :thup:
		
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 Love a round down that way, I'll get back down there soon!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jan 6, 2017)

BomberSRL said:



			Love a round down that way, I'll get back down there soon!
		
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I put out an open invite to everyone to play either course, just drop me a message when you are around  :thup:


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## Reemul (Jan 6, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			"Europe's golf market experienced steady growth in demand and supply for 25 years until its peak which occured in 2009 during the global economic crisis. Prior to this the average annual growth in the number of registered golfers was approx 5% year on year, whereas supply grew by an annual average of 3% year on year. Between 2009 and 2013, golf participation fell by 4%, whereas between 2014-2015 the trend stabilized to a very slight fall to -0.3%" 
*KPMG *_Golf participation report for Europe 2016. 


_"Based on information shared by local golf associations, golf membership continues to become less attractive to non-competitive golfers." 
*KPMG *_Golf participation report for Europe 2016._

"Based on our survey, declines in golf participation were not widely associated with the economic crisis in and after 2008, but they were often attributed to the actual technical difficulty of the game"
*KPMG *_Golf participation report for Europe 2016.

_
Page 13 provides growth initiatives for European golf.  
http://static.golfbenchmark.com/media/3/0/0/4/3004.pdf

I look forward to seeing all of this being pinned back on the joining process and an interview.
		
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Of course you do...


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## londonlewis (Jan 6, 2017)

CMNI said:



			All of this relates to those already playing - people like you who play, know the score, and aren't put off by the show. 

It makes zero reference to new players in any of those three statements.

I agree with you, if you know about golf, golf clubs then whats the fuss.  It is those who aren't even willing because the game puts so many off because of the perceived exclusivity that the game does not warrant.  The game can be, and should be played by anyone.  Look at world number 1's life story, not how many people would imagine a pro-golfer coming to be, inspiring stuff (though he probably wouldn't have made it into Drive4shows club as a youth player   )
		
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Let's just totally ignore it then...


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## londonlewis (Jan 6, 2017)

CMNI said:



			Also below quote is directly lifted from page 14 of your link:  

"Limited personal free-time and thenature of the game, competingactivities, and *the sense ofexclusivity in the sport can make **it difficult to entice newcomers to register as members. "*


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"sense of exclusivity" says it all really doesn't it.


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## londonlewis (Jan 6, 2017)

Reemul said:



			Of course you do...
		
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Very thought invoking, thanks for sharing.


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## CMNI (Jan 6, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			"sense of exclusivity" says it all really doesn't it.
		
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Uck wise up.  You know it is part and parcel.  The exclusivity comes from a number of factors, and obviously the club gate keeper is one of the key aspects in the perceived exclusivity.  

I thought you were a golfer not a a fisher, put your bait away you're running out.


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## BomberSRL (Jan 6, 2017)

drive4show said:



			I put out an open invite to everyone to play either course, just drop me a message when you are around  :thup:
		
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 I may well take you up on that in the Spring.


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## londonlewis (Jan 6, 2017)

CMNI said:



			Uck wise up.  You know it is part and parcel.  The exclusivity comes from a number of factors, and obviously the club gate keeper is one of the key aspects in the perceived exclusivity.  

I thought you were a golfer not a a fisher, put your bait away you're running out.
		
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Wise up??? 

golfer not a fisher? 

I'm done. Have a good weekend everyone.


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## BomberSRL (Jan 6, 2017)




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## backwoodsman (Jan 6, 2017)

Golly, I do like a thread where folk can argue for hours - but where the participants are not quite looking at the same thing. Excellent fun.

I'd only comment that some "golf clubs" are "clubs" and some "golf clubs" are "courses" and the two are different beasts. So yes, I think I'd expect some difference in process for gaining entry to one or the other.  Whatever it is you want out of your golfing life will determine the nature of the beast you aim to join - it'll be your choice, but you'll also be choosing the entry process.


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## fundy (Jan 6, 2017)

ScienceBoy said:



*Golf is broken, that's a given*.

The solution? Maybe it needs to redefine what "fixed" is rather than over extending to make everyone happy.

Established members don't see the problems, why would they, it's fine as it is and I agree. When I was a member and not a parent golf was PERFECT and there was no need to change.

For people coming in new or trying to get back in it's just not fit for purpose. I can't see it being so for another decade... 10 years or more of a club not getting my subs, I want it to just be 3-5 years.

We may need less golf clubs but we needmore variety of clubs, some short, some long, more 9 hole courses etc. Maybe we need more clubs, just less 7000 yard "championship" courses.

Those shorter that do exist need to offer competitions and handicap rather than just a place to play golf.

When we fully understand what fixed is we can see what is REALLY broken.
		
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Utter poppycock, it may not fit your current life circumstances and may not be perfect but golf is far from broken, try and get a bit better perspective on it. We all make choices in life and golf doesnt fit in with those you have made currently. Theres things we'd all like to change but wanting the whole sport restructured to fit your niche a bit unrealistic


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## Orikoru (Jan 6, 2017)

Trojan615 said:



			Interesting points on the discussion about hogan / Nike folding on a us site....

_Unfortunately this is the direction the golf business/game is going. The game is too hard to master, too expensive for the middle class and takes too long to play for working people.._

Is this true ? 
Is it time for a major change in the way we play the game ( less clubs - cheaper) or less holes - quicker rounds ? Discuss
		
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(I'm skipping the intervening 33 pages and just responding to this.)

I personally don't find it too expensive. There are several nice courses near me that only charge around Â£20 for a round of 18 on the weekends. Cheaper if you can get a Friday off work and go then. I don't think 'takes too long' is an issue either really. You can always pick a shorter course, or a 9 hole if you're pushed for time. But in summer the length of a game is actually appealing to me. Get out in the midday sun and get back in time for a nice late afternoon pint or two. I always get this funny sense of achievement after completing 18 holes which is hard to describe. 

I thought golf was becoming more popular if anything. I've got a few friends into it in the last year. You've got places like TopGolf popping as well attracting people who maybe would never have thought about golf otherwise.


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## Reemul (Jan 6, 2017)

Orikoru said:



			(I'm skipping the intervening 33 pages and just responding to this.)

I personally don't find it too expensive. There are several nice courses near me that only charge around Â£20 for a round of 18 on the weekends. Cheaper if you can get a Friday off work and go then. I don't think 'takes too long' is an issue either really. You can always pick a shorter course, or a 9 hole if you're pushed for time. But in summer the length of a game is actually appealing to me. Get out in the midday sun and get back in time for a nice late afternoon pint or two. I always get this funny sense of achievement after completing 18 holes which is hard to describe. 

I thought golf was becoming more popular if anything. I've got a few friends into it in the last year. You've got places like TopGolf popping as well attracting people who maybe would never have thought about golf otherwise.
		
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Really you need to read at least a decent portion of the previous pages as the points raised have been answered as to why it's too expensive and time consuming for some which while not relevant to you are relevant to some and can hold back some from taking it up or continuing with it and having multiple options for everyone from shorter courses or 9 hole courses etc would be a benefit. 

On a personal level before I had kids cost and time were never an issue, I had 2 days off in the week and plenty of spare cash and time to play. Then I had kids and both cash and time has disappeared. it's only been in the last 6 months when my kids have got in to golf that I am getting a game in but never more than once a week and never weekly. But if I am to join a club I need one that embraces the family way, is cost effective and and allows me the option to play less if I cannot fit more in to it.

My eldest plays at Sturminster Marshall Golf Club which is a 9 hole course with a great kids academy. I also play at The Hamworthy Club which is a Par 3 9 hole course with really small greens and tight play, this works great for my 6 year old as well who also plays Football there. I also play at Bulbury Woods as a Pay and Play user. All 3 do not have a decent driving Range, 2 have no range and 1 has 4 bays to 150 yards Max. So If I wish to use a driving range I have to go to Dudsbury Golf Course which I can't play as I am not a member but can practice there.

So as you can see, far from simple and at times it can be a pain in the ass. My old course Canford Magna closed down, yet that had a really good 9 hole, a pitch and Putt and 2 18 hole courses as well as a really good driving range. Unfortunately one of the 2 owners died and the club was closed down in April even though it was plenty busy..


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## Hobbit (Jan 6, 2017)

Orikoru said:



			(I'm skipping the intervening 33 pages and just responding to this.)

I personally don't find it too expensive. There are several nice courses near me that only charge around Â£20 for a round of 18 on the weekends. Cheaper if you can get a Friday off work and go then. I don't think 'takes too long' is an issue either really. You can always pick a shorter course, or a 9 hole if you're pushed for time. But in summer the length of a game is actually appealing to me. Get out in the midday sun and get back in time for a nice late afternoon pint or two. I always get this funny sense of achievement after completing 18 holes which is hard to describe. 

I thought golf was becoming more popular if anything. I've got a few friends into it in the last year. You've got places like TopGolf popping as well attracting people who maybe would never have thought about golf otherwise.
		
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Well, if you can't be bothered to read the previous posts I can't be..............


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## Trojan615 (Jan 6, 2017)

...

You ever have that feeling you probably shouldn't have started a thread....?


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## Crow (Jan 6, 2017)

MikeH said:



			I'm interested to hear some more views from forumers on why/what factors they think are behind the game not growing? and does it actually matter if headline participation numbers are in decline?
		
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I bet you regret saying that now Mike?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 6, 2017)

Trojan615 said:



			...

You ever have that feeling you probably shouldn't have started a thread....?
		
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TBH, I think it's been a great thread, if anything it shows the wide range of opinions and differences from clubs all over the Country, great to see how succesful clubs like LP has been in getting new members to clubs still stuck in the past, whether it's answered Mike's question, I'll leave that to him, I'm sure he's capable of sorting the wheat from the chaff.


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## SteveW86 (Jan 6, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			TBH, I think it's been a great thread, if anything it shows the wide range of opinions and differences from clubs all over the Country, great to see how succesful clubs like LP has been in getting new members to clubs still stuck in the past, whether it's answered Mike's question, I'll leave that to him, I'm sure he's capable of sorting the wheat from the chaff.
		
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I can only dream of starting a thread this popular.....the last time I started a popular thread it was about when I was at a house party and ended up taking my bosses daughter home with me (not on this forum, so don't go searching for it)


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## Deleted member 16999 (Jan 6, 2017)

SteveW86 said:



			I can only dream of starting a thread this popular.....the last time I started a popular thread it was about when I was at a house party and ended up taking my bosses daughter home with me (not on this forum, so don't go searching for it)
		
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I don't believe you, the only way I will is if you post the link


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## Canmore (Jan 6, 2017)

backwoodsman said:



			Golly, I do like a thread where folk can argue for hours - but where the participants are not quite looking at the same thing. Excellent fun.

I'd only comment that some "golf clubs" are "clubs" and some "golf clubs" are "courses" and the two are different beasts. So yes, I think I'd expect some difference in process for gaining entry to one or the other.  Whatever it is you want out of your golfing life will determine the nature of the beast you aim to join - it'll be your choice, but you'll also be choosing the entry process.
		
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Completely right!  Think where we were 30 years ago - there was only a choice between the local muni or a private members club.  Golf has come a long way - maybe choices and a more mainstream following are the real problem


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## Sweep (Jan 7, 2017)

SteveW86 said:



			I can only dream of starting a thread this popular.....the last time I started a popular thread it was about when I was at a house party and ended up taking my bosses daughter home with me (not on this forum, so don't go searching for it)
		
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You can't post something like this without the details!
I demand you start the thread again, only this time on this forum!
To refuse to do so would constitute gross unkindness to your fellow forumers.


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## pauljames87 (Jan 8, 2017)

I think the problem with Golf is people...

they say golf is struggling to attract people to take up the game so they come up with new ideas which get people to flock to the game on a temp basis and then the people who are happy with how the game is then find it harder to enjoy

just the way the world works now

for example how many courses now offer footgolf on a sunday afternoon? does wonders for the club sales but those people who enjoyed a quiet and quick round on a sunday afternoon now cant enjoy that anymore (at the same place that is)

this morning was a prime example

went to my driving range.. I used to love sunday mornings , handful of people down the range so could focus on areas of my game in peace. Great for me not good for the range im guessing which is why they installed half the bays with protrace... this sunday was packed... all the protrace bays were taken (no issue im there to practice) so place my bag on one of the other bays (5 to pick from) go to get balls and 5 middle age guys all go down looking for bays.. I come back and they set up either side of me talking away to each other so I decide to move so A. they can talk to each other B. I dont have them talking through my bay.. ended up with 1 bay to pick where they seem to focus on lessons now, 6 bays tapped off for lessons with no lessons being given and a bay on the end (with a post in the way that you cant swing a driver without hitting the post on follow through) fine ill do wedges I thought

60 balls I had, after about 10 I almost thought of going home.. all I could hear was the middle age guys chatting away to each other loudly. 

I think headphones will be needed for range sessions in the future... as its my problem not theirs

however that said I cant wait for the novelty effect to wear off so you get a nice steady flow of people and not herds of sheep down there


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 8, 2017)

pauljames87 said:



			I think the problem with Golf is people...

they say golf is struggling to attract people to take up the game so they come up with new ideas which get people to flock to the game on a temp basis and then the people who are happy with how the game is then find it harder to enjoy

just the way the world works now

for example how many courses now offer footgolf on a sunday afternoon? does wonders for the club sales but those people who enjoyed a quiet and quick round on a sunday afternoon now cant enjoy that anymore (at the same place that is)

this morning was a prime example

went to my driving range.. I used to love sunday mornings , handful of people down the range so could focus on areas of my game in peace. Great for me not good for the range im guessing which is why they installed half the bays with protrace... this sunday was packed... all the protrace bays were taken (no issue im there to practice) so place my bag on one of the other bays (5 to pick from) go to get balls and 5 middle age guys all go down looking for bays.. I come back and they set up either side of me talking away to each other so I decide to move so A. they can talk to each other B. I dont have them talking through my bay.. ended up with 1 bay to pick where they seem to focus on lessons now, 6 bays tapped off for lessons with no lessons being given and a bay on the end (with a post in the way that you cant swing a driver without hitting the post on follow through) fine ill do wedges I thought

60 balls I had, after about 10 I almost thought of going home.. all I could hear was the middle age guys chatting away to each other loudly. 

I think headphones will be needed for range sessions in the future... as its my problem not theirs

however that said I cant wait for the novelty effect to wear off so you get a nice steady flow of people and not herds of sheep down there
		
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Sadly the range and the course are two separate things. I use the one nearest me for convenience but know when I go it'll be full of kids (not a bad thing and good to see them getting into golf) and teenagers mucking about and generally being a nuisance and so quiet practice is never going to happen. There is one in Ascot that's a little tucked away and so a lot quieter and used by people wanting to work in their game, although there are still kids and parents and kids classes. I use the furthest bays and rarely get anyone coming that far down into the next one. The best range I ever used was in Maidenhead and right out of the way and so was very quiet in terms of teenagers and idiots and used by those wanting to work on their game. Sadly having moved to the other side of town it's now at least 30 minutes away and too far to go


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## pauljames87 (Jan 8, 2017)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sadly the range and the course are two separate things. I use the one nearest me for convenience but know when I go it'll be full of kids (not a bad thing and good to see them getting into golf) and teenagers mucking about and generally being a nuisance and so quiet practice is never going to happen. There is one in Ascot that's a little tucked away and so a lot quieter and used by people wanting to work in their game, although there are still kids and parents and kids classes. I use the furthest bays and rarely get anyone coming that far down into the next one. The best range I ever used was in Maidenhead and right out of the way and so was very quiet in terms of teenagers and idiots and used by those wanting to work on their game. Sadly having moved to the other side of town it's now at least 30 minutes away and too far to go
		
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in my opinion it has always been the best range in the area. Its a scott cranfield centre however they have branched out into other areas to get more people through the door

you have footgolf (a course thats just for footgolf)
you have crazy golf (18 hole crazy golf)
and now protrace at the range with its simulation feature

Auto loading bays (always useful)
over 350 yards long (so even forum users can drive till their hearts content)
4 main greens , (astro turf) to aim for, at 65 yards , 110 yards, 170 yards and 140 yards.. so useful to have a proper target to aim for
a target at 225 yards (big bullseye to hit and if you land within the other part of the target its about 210 yards etc) something to aim the driver through (ofc to carry! lol)

until protrace you had a steady stream of traffic

cant wait until the novelty wears off and you get the people who want to be there rather than just trying a new thing


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## HomerJSimpson (Jan 8, 2017)

pauljames87 said:



			in my opinion it has always been the best range in the area. Its a scott cranfield centre however they have branched out into other areas to get more people through the door

you have footgolf (a course thats just for footgolf)
you have crazy golf (18 hole crazy golf)
and now protrace at the range with its simulation feature

Auto loading bays (always useful)
over 350 yards long (so even forum users can drive till their hearts content)
4 main greens , (astro turf) to aim for, at 65 yards , 110 yards, 170 yards and 140 yards.. so useful to have a proper target to aim for
a target at 225 yards (big bullseye to hit and if you land within the other part of the target its about 210 yards etc) something to aim the driver through (ofc to carry! lol)

until protrace you had a steady stream of traffic

cant wait until the novelty wears off and you get the people who want to be there rather than just trying a new thing
		
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Sounds ideal although I'm not a fan of footgolf. Where is your range? I know Silvermere has pro tracer which means it gets busy and there's a rush to use these bays (five at ground level and five upstairs). The ones I use don't have this technology and so aside from my local one which has a happy hour (6.00-7.00) there isn't usually a rush. The one with happy hour does become a cattle market and so if you aren't there by 6.15-6.20 then you're unlikely to get a bay and will have to wait


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## pauljames87 (Jan 8, 2017)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Sounds ideal although I'm not a fan of footgolf. Where is your range? I know Silvermere has pro tracer which means it gets busy and there's a rush to use these bays (five at ground level and five upstairs). The ones I use don't have this technology and so aside from my local one which has a happy hour (6.00-7.00) there isn't usually a rush. The one with happy hour does become a cattle market and so if you aren't there by 6.15-6.20 then you're unlikely to get a bay and will have to wait
		
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It is in Romford , Havering greater london

they have built it up well 

tried footgolf once (blooming harder than it looks!)

love the crazy golf but at Â£9 for 18 holes bit over priced IMO , I dont mind when I get a groupon for Â£9 for the 2 of us

The protrace bays are indeed packed. it surprised me today that the other end of the range was packed aswell! (must be all the normal golfers like myself who go on a sunday)

there is a part of the range with no auto loaders but recently what they do is leave 1 bay free and the other 7 or so they put a sign saying "reserved for lessons" which is annoying because they only have 4 pros so unless its a class (not that often) its sitting their unused 

I like that part of the range sometimes because its normally empty as everyone wants an auto loading bay.

Theirs talk that the next stage of development is to half the number of bays in the quiet end , make them bigger with heating for just lessons which I can see as a good thing having an area just for teaching 

have a decent enough short game area but they say its "members only" Â£239 for a year or comes free when you pay Â£40 a month for unlimited range balls.. I doubt they police it

has a 9 hole course attached now (par 3) but they expanding it to a full 18 hole course.. members only.. Â£79 a month I think for the "gold" membership which has everything, unlimited range, use of the course etc

do think its a tad overpriced in that sense

as a day to day range its very good and reasonable price

ive somehow managed to land a months worth of late shifts so 2 times a week on way to work head to the range , before 12 its half price for discount card holders so Â£4.25 for 120 balls and good to use the 18 hole simulator then


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2017)

We are working hard to make the club more attractive by providing more golf facilities and doing our utmost to integrate new members.  We already have excellent and extensive practice grounds but have just recently added a 3 bay cover for wet weather




and have installed an indoor swing studio

https://www.facebook.com/158439667522593/videos/1383850051648209/

And we seem to be succeeding.  This Saturday our 10am roll-up had 34 of us.  All new members are encouraged to join it - and they have...it is getting unwieldy and we don't quite know what to do.  I turned up at 9:45am for the 10:15am draw - and didn't get off until 11:30am.


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## londonlewis (Jan 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are working hard to make the club more attractive by providing more golf facilities and doing our utmost to integrate new members.  We already have excellent and extensive practice grounds but have just recently added a 3 bay cover for wet weather

View attachment 21631


and have installed an indoor swing studio

https://www.facebook.com/158439667522593/videos/1383850051648209/

And we seem to be succeeding.  This Saturday our 10am roll-up had 34 of us.  All new members are encouraged to join it - and they have...it is getting unwieldy and we don't quite know what to do.  I turned up at 9:45am for the 10:15am draw - and didn't get off until 11:30am.
		
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This makes great reading. Good to see new initiatives are having a really positive impact.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2017)

londonlewis said:



			This makes great reading. Good to see new initiatives are having a really positive impact.
		
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Cheers - apparently out indoor swing studio uses GC2 and HMT technologies (they don't mean anything to me at the moment - but I will no doubt learn soon enough)


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## patricks148 (Jan 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We are working hard to make the club more attractive by providing more golf facilities and doing our utmost to integrate new members.  We already have excellent and extensive practice grounds but have just recently added a 3 bay cover for wet weather

View attachment 21631


and have installed an indoor swing studio

https://www.facebook.com/158439667522593/videos/1383850051648209/

And we seem to be succeeding.  This Saturday our 10am roll-up had 34 of us.  All new members are encouraged to join it - and they have...it is getting unwieldy and we don't quite know what to do.  I turned up at 9:45am for the 10:15am draw - and didn't get off until 11:30am.
		
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wish we could get something like this for our practice ground, unfortunately it would last about a week before it ended up 20 miles out in the North Sea or in someones garden in Findhorn


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## SteveW86 (Jan 9, 2017)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Cheers - apparently out indoor swing studio uses GC2 and HMT technologies (they don't mean anything to me at the moment - but I will no doubt learn soon enough)
		
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Looks like a great set up, remember you mentioned the developments when I was there the other week. A very positive and active club!


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