# Sir Michael Fallon



## ger147 (Nov 1, 2017)

He has resigned due to "past behaviour"...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41838682


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## User62651 (Nov 1, 2017)

Always seemed teflon to me, a safe pair of hands on tv, trotted out in front of the cameras every time there is a crisis in the Tory Party but has blown a political career now it seems to 'cop a feel', wonder why he went now, perhaps there are other 'skeletons in his closet' about to come out or maybe he's just thought sod it I've had enough?
One of the more capable cabinet ministers I thought, wonder who'll get defence now?


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## Old Skier (Nov 1, 2017)

Latest Defence Review looking at further cuts which he is dead against so it might (Or might not) have something to do with it.


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## Stuart_C (Nov 1, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Latest Defence Review looking at further cuts which he is dead against so it might (Or might not) have something to do with it.
		
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Going by Fallon's resignation letter,  his decision has no bearing whatsoever on  the proposed cuts.  He must have some scary skeletons in his past, no doubt he'll be protected by the establishment.


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 1, 2017)

New accusations today but not public yet apparently.


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## Foxholer (Nov 1, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			Latest Defence Review looking at further cuts which he is dead against so it might (Or might not) have something to do with it.
		
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OMG! What sort of vacuum chamber are you living in?!!!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 1, 2017)

The compensation culture is a motivator.


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## bluewolf (Nov 2, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			The compensation culture is a motivator.
		
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For what exactly?


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 2, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			The compensation culture is a motivator.
		
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Donâ€™t really follow you. Men think they can get compensation if they sexually harass women?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 2, 2017)

I can't wait until they get to the bit where the Tory whips use this sort of known info to apply voting pressure on the 36.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 2, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			The compensation culture is a motivator.
		
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Welcome back SR.


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## Stuart_C (Nov 2, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			The compensation culture is a motivator.
		
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For such an educated man, you post some rubbish dont you.


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## Old Skier (Nov 2, 2017)

Foxholer said:



			OMG! What sort of vacuum chamber are you living in?!!!
		
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And there was me putting in your famous {}[]() must have been the wrong type.

I, like you have no idea what has been going on.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 2, 2017)

He apparently was asked if this was likely to be the last incident that would come out. When he replied no the PM told him to resign. That is the story coming from journalists.

He wont be the last, quite rightly. I suspect there could be a fair sized group of 55+ old men who will have more time on their hands very shortly.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 2, 2017)

And so with Fallon what seemed to be incidental and seemingly OK in the context of the action and time and person of attention, turns out to quite possibly be a manifestation of underlying problematic attitudes and behaviours - and more could come out?  Well that seems to be the conclusion some are reaching over Fallon's resignation.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 2, 2017)

Go on... Hands up all those hoping it's Boris that's next under the spotlight...

Be honest...


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## rudebhoy (Nov 2, 2017)

Fallon has got lots of previous for getting pissed and trying it on with any nearby female. There was a story not long ago about an MI5 officer pulling him away from a woman at a reception who turned out to be a Russian spy.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 2, 2017)

Stuart_C said:



			For such an educated man, you post some rubbish dont you.
		
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You still lack the ability to disagree with a statement without insult.  Shame really.


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## Stuart_C (Nov 2, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You still lack the ability to disagree with a statement without insult.  Shame really.
		
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An insult? 

It's my opinion.


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## IanM (Nov 2, 2017)

...and a chap allegedly sharing naked photos of a fellow female MP.... hopefully that will rid us of an odious scumbag


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 2, 2017)

Now that he has gone can we please revoke his knighthood? It is bad enough that anyone gets a title of this type, a pet hate of mine, but if they have brought the title into disrepute then surely it should be removed. No need for people to be sycophantic when we know he is the touchy feely type.


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## bobmac (Nov 2, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Now that he has gone can we please revoke his knighthood? It is bad enough that anyone gets a title of this type, a pet hate of mine, but if they have brought the title into disrepute then surely it should be removed. No need for people to be sycophantic when we know he is the touchy feely type.
		
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That's just daft.
If you revoke his knighthood because of his past dodgy behaviour, you'd need to sack most of the MPs as well.
On second thoughts, it might not be such a bad idea after all  :thup:


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## bigslice (Nov 2, 2017)

There is a female name on list aswell.


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## bigslice (Nov 2, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			Go on... Hands up all those hoping it's Boris that's next under the spotlight...

Be honest...
		
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His name is on the list


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## ColchesterFC (Nov 2, 2017)

Think that we have to be careful what we say about those named on the list. At least a couple of them are on there for having completely consensual affairs. Probably of interest to their wives but of no interest in the eyes of the police. Whereas some of those named have almost certainly committed offences that could lead to prosecution if the evidence is there.


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## patricks148 (Nov 3, 2017)

what i can't understand is his comments of "15 or 10 years ago"  really 10 years ago it was acceptable to behave this way????


if he had said 30 or 40 maybe, but not even 20 years ago TBH


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## User62651 (Nov 3, 2017)

Allegedly Leadsom dobbed him in, wonder why it took so long and if it's an attempt by her to further weaken May to get her pro-Brexit guy Boris into No.10? Bet Gove is in this somewhere too. PM responds by putting a loyal if somewhat unqualified bulldog Williamson into Defence much to the dismay of many of her cabinet and MPs. 

He's got a tarantula in his office you know!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 3, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Allegedly Leadsom dobbed him in, wonder why it took so long and if it's an attempt by her to further weaken May to get her pro-Brexit guy Boris into No.10? Bet Gove is in this somewhere too. PM responds by putting a loyal if somewhat unqualified bulldog Williamson into Defence much to the dismay of many of her cabinet and MPs. 

He's got a tarantula in his office you know!

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I get the impression that Leadsom is a bit of a conniving witch - though what spell she might cast over others I have no idea...baffling.


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## hors limite (Nov 3, 2017)

I can't help thinking that there is something more to this story. The journalist whose knee he touched was so untraumatised that she told him to get lost at the time and has since ridiculed the idea that he should lose his job. As for Leadsom and the story about hand warming. This is a woman who had and perhaps still has an ambition to be Prime Minister. If she was incapable of slapping down a man who could make such a pathetic remark,it confirms that her ambitions are somewhat over optimistic. 
Please don't interpret these observations as a wish to belittle all these allegations. Far from it, the thought of men using their positions of power to sexually harass or worse the women with whom they work disgusts me.


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## Sweep (Nov 3, 2017)

If the Leadsom angle is true I don't think she is doing it to bring Mrs May down and put a Brexiteer in No.10. If May goes it risks bringing the government down and putting Corbyn in Downing Street. The feeling is she is doing it to protect her own career. She was demoted to Leader of the House in the last reshuffle and the word was she was going next time. No-one dare sack someone who makes a complaint such as this in the current climate as it will be seen as condoning Fallon's alleged behaviour. For the record Fallon denies the "hand warming" accusation.
Whilst I can understand why someone may be fearful of coming forward with sexual assault or worse allegations for a number of reasons, I do have to question why Mrs Leadsom would wait 5 years to complain about a comment and choose this particular moment to do so.
There may be more to this on both sides.


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 3, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Allegedly Leadsom dobbed him in, wonder why it took so long and if it's an attempt by her to further weaken May to get her pro-Brexit guy Boris into No.10? Bet Gove is in this somewhere too. PM responds by putting a loyal if somewhat unqualified bulldog Williamson into Defence much to the dismay of many of her cabinet and MPs. 

He's got a tarantula in his office you know!

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SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I get the impression that Leadsom is a bit of a conniving witch - though what spell she might cast over others I have no idea...baffling.
		
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hors limite said:



			I can't help thinking that there is something more to this story. The journalist whose knee he touched was so untraumatised that she told him to get lost at the time and has since ridiculed the idea that he should lose his job. As for Leadsom and the story about hand warming. This is a woman who had and perhaps still has an ambition to be Prime Minister. If she was incapable of slapping down a man who could make such a pathetic remark,it confirms that her ambitions are somewhat over optimistic. 
Please don't interpret these observations as a wish to belittle all these allegations. Far from it, the thought of men using their positions of power to sexually harass or worse the women with whom they work disgusts me.
		
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Sweep said:



			If the Leadsom angle is true I don't think she is doing it to bring Mrs May down and put a Brexiteer in No.10. If May goes it risks bringing the government down and putting Corbyn in Downing Street. The feeling is she is doing it to protect her own career. She was demoted to Leader of the House in the last reshuffle and the word was she was going next time. No-one dare sack someone who makes a complaint such as this in the current climate as it will be seen as condoning Fallon's alleged behaviour. For the record Fallon denies the "hand warming" accusation.
Whilst I can understand why someone may be fearful of coming forward with sexual assault or worse allegations for a number of reasons, I do have to question why Mrs Leadsom would wait 5 years to complain about a comment and choose this particular moment to do so.
There may be more to this on both sides.
		
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Comments like these are one of the reasons women are reluctant to come forward.


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## User62651 (Nov 3, 2017)

Mine was a general conservative party infighting joke post mentioning 5 politicians (3 male, 2 female), dont agree it reads as you suggest.


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 3, 2017)

maxfli65 said:



			Mine was a general conservative party infighting joke post mentioning 5 politicians (3 male, 2 female), dont agree it reads as you suggest.
		
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I read it as you suggesting she was only reporting it for Machiavellian reasons.


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## User62651 (Nov 3, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			I read it as you suggesting she was only reporting it for Machiavellian reasons.
		
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I suppose I did but as part of a plot with Gove and Johnson to weaken May. However I take your point, bad choice of words, apologies for that.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 3, 2017)

Leadsom is conniving (she is a politician after all) - and she is a *w*itch (not the b-word) as she definitely seems to cast a curious spell over folks who think she is great - when she is anything but.  I do not call her a conniving witch in the context of any inappropriate advances or comments Fallon may have made towards her, and I do not criticise her if it was she who called him out for additional misdemeanors - he deserves it and in that she was spot on.


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## hors limite (Nov 3, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Comments like these are one of the reasons women are reluctant to come forward.[/QUOTI 
 I quite specifically condemned sexual harassment. My view of Fallon's remark, if true, is that it is pathetic and crude and that he should be ashamed of himself but is it harassment? The other point that I was trying to make was that I would expect a 50 year old woman with Leadsom's experience and considerable ambition to have the ability to deal with it.
Just to be absolutely clear, I can see quite vividly the difficulties faced by complainants in subordinate positions who have had no one to whom they could turn. This needs sorting out.
		
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## Sweep (Nov 3, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Comments like these are one of the reasons women are reluctant to come forward.
		
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There are no words to describe how strongly I disagree with this statement.
If we go down this route we have to accept that every complaint is justified. This is of course not the case.
I note you say that women are reluctant to come forward. Whilst the vast majority of sufferers are clearly women, the fact that you fail to mention men speaks volumes.


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## Sweep (Nov 3, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Comments like these are one of the reasons women are reluctant to come forward.
		
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To be clear, I absolutely stand by my post.
I was reporting what was in the press and I did say "if true". I do believe that Leadsom's actions do have an ulterior motive. The timing stinks. It's politics. My main fear is that this nonsense gets in the way of progress with real and serious complaints of sexual Harassment and worse.
This is a perfect example of how anyone dare not make a valid argument to the contrary for fear of being associated with unacceptable behaviour. I have never been guilty of such behaviour and I am prepared to argue the contrary case if justified.


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## Foxholer (Nov 3, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			Comments like these are one of the reasons women are reluctant to come forward.
		
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As regretable as it is that women are reluctant to come forward, I don't believe any of those comment reflected any reason for the reluctance of women to come forward! That reluctance that needs to be addressed, the consequence of which will - imo - be a reduction in such incidents!

I saw a letter to an editor, at the wekend, that described my 'animalistic' view on the cause of much of the (alleged and admitted) behaviour...It's not about libido; it's about power!


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 3, 2017)

Sweep said:



			There are no words to describe how strongly I disagree with this statement.
If we go down this route we have to accept that every complaint is justified. This is of course not the case.
I note you say that women are reluctant to come forward. Whilst the vast majority of sufferers are clearly women, the fact that you fail to mention men speaks volumes.
		
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I'm quite saddened by this post and it would be easy to snipe back in similar vein. 

Suffice to say I think this is as bad whether the victim is male or female and whether the perpetrator is male or female. Bit of a cheap shot to pick on the semantics but I'm not going to add "and men" into every sentence I write on a subject that, as you acknowledge, affects women vastly more than men.


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 3, 2017)

Sweep said:



			To be clear, I absolutely stand by my post.
I was reporting what was in the press and I did say "if true". I do believe that Leadsom's actions do have an ulterior motive. The timing stinks. It's politics. My main fear is that this nonsense gets in the way of progress with real and serious complaints of sexual Harassment and worse.
This is a perfect example of how anyone dare not make a valid argument to the contrary for fear of being associated with unacceptable behaviour. I have never been guilty of such behaviour and I am prepared to argue the contrary case if justified.
		
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For the avoidance of doubt, in no way am I suggesting you are guilty of this. That is a massive leap from the very simple point I was trying to make.

A big fear for victims of these offences is that they won't be believed. I'd much prefer if our first reaction was to believe them rather than immediately question why they didn't mention it at the time. In Leadsom's case (and I hate defending her incidentally) it's just as likely that she mentions it now because she knows it wasn't an isolated case and other stories are coming to light.


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## Old Skier (Nov 3, 2017)

I find it sad in this day and age that there are men and women out there that havnt the confidence to come out and make these things public.

These are stackable offences in many organisations and if proved  the  person responsible for these actions should be be hoofed from parliament.


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## chippa1909 (Nov 3, 2017)

Another MP from 'the list' suspended and reported to the police. Charlie Elphicke.


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## Sweep (Nov 4, 2017)

FairwayDodger said:



			For the avoidance of doubt, in no way am I suggesting you are guilty of this. That is a massive leap from the very simple point I was trying to make.

A big fear for victims of these offences is that they won't be believed. I'd much prefer if our first reaction was to believe them rather than immediately question why they didn't mention it at the time. In Leadsom's case (and I hate defending her incidentally) it's just as likely that she mentions it now because she knows it wasn't an isolated case and other stories are coming to light.
		
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As I said in my original post, there may be more to this from both sides.
I accept all you say about victims being afraid of coming forward in fear that they may not be believed. But this is not sexual abuse or rape. This is a comment. A comment made 5 years ago. And this is not a woman who may not be believed. She is a member of Parliament. As a cabinet minister as she has been since 2015 to my knowledge, she is probably one of the most powerful women in Britain, especially considering Mrs. May was put forward as the second most powerful woman on the planet just this week.
IF this is all there is on Fallon (and it is a big if) and if we have lost a Minister of Defence over this who by all accounts was doing a good job then it is beyond ridiculous and we are on very dangerous ground. Trying to find people to serve in government at all is going to become impossible. What's next? The Pope for PM? If men don't feel they can speak to women (and vice-Versa) without fear of upsetting them or being reported, what then?
And most importantly, whilst all this is going on real abuse is not being tackled and no real leadership or example is being set by Parliament at all.
IF Fallon is guilty of more, then he may have got what he deserved but right now it stinks and I do not believe it is wrong to question a complainers motives. You cannot just decide to believe every complaint under the guise of encouraging other victims to come forward, especially in a case like this. Innocent until proven guilty.


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## drdel (Nov 4, 2017)

Sweep said:



			As I said in my original post, there may be more to this from both sides.
I accept all you say about victims being afraid of coming forward in fear that they may not be believed. But this is not sexual abuse or rape. This is a comment. A comment made 5 years ago. And this is not a woman who may not be believed. She is a member of Parliament. As a cabinet minister as she has been since 2015 to my knowledge, she is probably one of the most powerful women in Britain, especially considering Mrs. May was put forward as the second most powerful woman on the planet just this week.
IF this is all there is on Fallon (and it is a big if) and if we have lost a Minister of Defence over this who by all accounts was doing a good job then it is beyond ridiculous and we are on very dangerous ground. Trying to find people to serve in government at all is going to become impossible. What's next? The Pope for PM? If men don't feel they can speak to women (and vice-Versa) without fear of upsetting them or being reported, what then?
And most importantly, whilst all this is going on real abuse is not being tackled and no real leadership or example is being set by Parliament at all.
IF Fallon is guilty of more, then he may have got what he deserved but right now it stinks and I do not believe it is wrong to question a complainers motives. You cannot just decide to believe every complaint under the guise of encouraging other victims to come forward, especially in a case like this. Innocent until proven guilty.
		
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I agree.

Sadly, justice is not what its about anyone. Many, but not all, are just claims where nothing illegal has occured but in the media storm both men and women are going to be the losers


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## SocketRocket (Nov 4, 2017)

Most of this is thin skinned balderdash and a wagon for the professionally offended to jump on.   If someone has cause to believe they have been sexually assaulted or offended then there are/or should be procedures to deal with it.   Why wait 10, 20, 30 years.

If there are not suitable procedures then get them sorted.   I cant imagine any business not having a complaints procedure that could deal with this.


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## drdel (Nov 4, 2017)

It cannot be right that accused is made public and fried by the social media etc. while often the accuser is anonymous.


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## bobmac (Nov 4, 2017)

chippa1909 said:



			Another MP from 'the list' suspended and reported to the police. Charlie Elphicke.
		
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He doesn't know what he has been accused of yet, that shouldn't happen surely?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Most of this is thin skinned balderdash and a wagon for the professionally offended to jump on.   If someone has cause to believe they have been sexually assaulted or offended then there are/or should be procedures to deal with it.   Why wait 10, 20, 30 years.

If there are not suitable procedures then get them sorted.   I cant imagine any business not having a complaints procedure that could deal with this.
		
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Thatâ€™s unrealstic, regardless of procedures in place there is still the risk of cover up and the abuse of power.

Many men and women wonâ€™t and canâ€™t come forward due to the effect on them and there future, thatâ€™s the real world.

Many suffer in silence, we shouldnâ€™t need complaint procedures, this behaviour shouldnâ€™t happen, we should be concentrating on the predators and why they think they can behave that way and get away with it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Most of this is thin skinned balderdash and a wagon for the professionally offended to jump on.   If someone has cause to believe they have been sexually assaulted or offended then there are/or should be procedures to deal with it.   Why wait 10, 20, 30 years.

If there are not suitable procedures then get them sorted.   I cant imagine any business not having a complaints procedure that could deal with this.
		
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Seriously ?!

Think Stu had it right - for someone who appears to be very well educated you spout some complete and utter rubbish - but each time you do you go down a level 

Do you not even begin to udnerstand how hard it was for females to report sexual abuse of any kind in the past - many other governing bodies have swept it all under the carpet in the past and made it very hard for anyone to come forward. Many people in the past have suffered in silence , itâ€™s ruined their lives but people have power over them making them curl up and accept it. 

Your post just shows exactly why people havenâ€™t come forward for fear of being accused of â€œthin skinnedâ€ and â€œprofessionally offendedâ€ .


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## SocketRocket (Nov 4, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Seriously ?!

Think Stu had it right - for someone who appears to be very well educated you spout some complete and utter rubbish - but each time you do you go down a level 

Do you not even begin to udnerstand how hard it was for females to report sexual abuse of any kind in the past - many other governing bodies have swept it all under the carpet in the past and made it very hard for anyone to come forward. Many people in the past have suffered in silence , itâ€™s ruined their lives but people have power over them making them curl up and accept it. 

Your post just shows exactly why people havenâ€™t come forward for fear of being accused of â€œthin skinnedâ€ and â€œprofessionally offendedâ€ .
		
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You typify the attitude that encourages this type of tittle tattle that the media have a feeding frenzy on. Your bleeding heart 'holier than thou' attitude is typical of the 'Facebook Warriors' that have so much to answer for in creating a society that has lost it's way.

We are not talking about sexual assault or abuse here, we all know that's not acceptable.  Women would normally just tell someone who had made a comment to them they found annoying to 'clear off' or words to that effect.  This current round of hysteria is something cooked up by either the media or others in power for their own profit.   You may get taken in by it but I am rather less gullible.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You typify the attitude that encourages this type of tittle tattle that the media have a feeding frenzy on. Your bleeding heart 'holier than thou' attitude is typical of the 'Facebook Warriors' that have so much to answer for in creating a society that has lost it's way.

We are not talking about sexual assault or abuse here, we all know that's not acceptable.  Women would normally just tell someone who had made a comment to them they found annoying to 'clear off' or words to that effect.  This current round of hysteria is something cooked up by either the media or others in power for their own profit.   You may get taken in by it but I am rather less gullible.
		
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The 1970â€™s have been on the phone, they said welcome home :thup:


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## SocketRocket (Nov 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Thatâ€™s unrealstic, regardless of procedures in place there is still the risk of cover up and the abuse of power.

Many men and women wonâ€™t and canâ€™t come forward due to the effect on them and there future, thatâ€™s the real world.

Many suffer in silence, *we shouldnâ€™t need complaint procedures, this behaviour shouldnâ€™t happen*, we should be concentrating on the predators and why they think they can behave that way and get away with it.
		
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That is a very naive comment.  GBH shouldn't happen, lots of things shouldn't happen but guess what, they do, there are levels of behavior that are unacceptable, levels that are acceptable and levels that are  questionable, we have heads on our shoulders so that we can understand the differences and apply a suitable policy as applicable.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			The 1970â€™s have been on the phone, they said welcome home :thup:
		
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Keep knitting the yogurt


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			That is a very naive comment.  GBH shouldn't happen, lots of things shouldn't happen but guess what, they do, there are levels of behavior that are unacceptable, levels that are acceptable and levels that are  questionable, we have heads on our shoulders so that we can understand the differences and apply a suitable policy as applicable.
		
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Youâ€™re blaming the victims, youâ€™ve been around long enough to have seen abuse of power in the workplace, either the â€œweakâ€ bloke or the â€œoffice slutâ€ terms that follow people through their careers.

Why did Fallon resign, explain that one, why didnâ€™t he fight?


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## chrisd (Nov 4, 2017)

bobmac said:



			He doesn't know what he has been accused of yet, that shouldn't happen surely?  

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Not only that but he said last evening that the press knew that he had been suspended from the Tory Party before he did - what a shambles!


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## SocketRocket (Nov 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Youâ€™re blaming the victims, youâ€™ve been around long enough to have seen abuse of power in the workplace, either the â€œweakâ€ bloke or the â€œoffice slutâ€ terms that follow people through their careers.

Why did Fallon resign, explain that one, why didnâ€™t he fight?
		
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I'm not blaming the victims, I am questioning whether many can be called victims.  Regarding Fallon: Because of the media and populous modus operandi we have now.  We have driven out a very capable Minister through tittle tattle. No one has been mentally scarred by him.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			Because of the media and populous modus operandi we have now.  We have driven out a very capable Minister through tittle tattle. No one has been mentally scared by him.
		
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So the third allegation of sexual assault is no more than tittle tattle.
Apologies for the 1970â€™s comment, it was actually the 1870â€™s who want your back.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			So the third allegation of sexual assault is no more than tittle tattle.
Apologies for the 1970â€™s comment, it was actually the 1870â€™s who want your back.
		
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First, Your  attempt at sarcasm is pathetic and is a very poor substitute for debate.

I have made it clear that I don't support sexual assault or abuse but you prefer to ignore that.  My point is what determines sexual assault, maybe you could discuss this in a grown up manner.


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## Sweep (Nov 4, 2017)

We have to be able to distinguish between offences. Offending someone is not a crime and as someone said, being offended does not mean you are right. Sexual assault is a crime. Making boorish and ill advised comments of a sexual nature is not a crime. It's stupid and pathetic but not criminal. If we can't distinguish that from sexual assault then we are simply failing victims of sexual assault.
Is speeding at 32mph in a 30 zone the same as speeding at 120mph in a 30 zone?
If any organisation fails to have proper procedures in place for dealing with all this then that organisation is failing its people and they are culpable.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			First, Your  attempt at sarcasm is pathetic and is a very poor substitute for debate.

I have made it clear that I don't support sexual assault or abuse but you prefer to ignore that.  My point is what determines sexual assault, maybe you could discuss this in a grown up manner.
		
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You stated â€œWe have driven out a very capable Minister through tittle tattleâ€ the third allegation is one of sexual assault, if heâ€™s so innocent why resign?

I have not ignored what you do or do not support, but It is you who is trying to blame modern society and the media for these allegations, if those people had behaved themselves then thereâ€™d be no allegations against them.

As for scarcasm, try your yogurt knitters post or are you once again not practising what you preach.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 4, 2017)

Sweep said:



			We have to be able to distinguish between offences. Offending someone is not a crime and as someone said, being offended does not mean you are right. Sexual assault is a crime. Making boorish and ill advised comments of a sexual nature is not a crime. It's stupid and pathetic but not criminal. If we can't distinguish that from sexual assault then we are simply failing victims of sexual assault.
Is speeding at 32mph in a 30 zone the same as speeding at 120mph in a 30 zone?
If any organisation fails to have proper procedures in place for dealing with all this then that organisation is failing its people and they are culpable.
		
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I canâ€™t believe weâ€™re shifting the blame to organisations, there are many articles coming out were people did report things and then told â€œnot to rock the boatâ€, that information is then used against the alleged abuser as means of power.

You can have all the systems in the world in place, but if those in authority decide to ignore the system how does that help the complainant.

We wouldnâ€™t need systems in place if people respected one another.

Both your speeding analogies are against the law.


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## Sweep (Nov 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			The 1970â€™s have been on the phone, they said welcome home :thup:
		
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Interesting comment. Clearly made in an attempt to offend. The recipient could be made to feel uncomfortable.
Do you think you should lose your job for making this comment?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 4, 2017)

Sweep said:



			Interesting comment. Clearly made in an attempt to offend. The recipient could be made to feel uncomfortable.
Do you think you should lose your job for making this comment?
		
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If he wishes to complain and his case is found correct, Iâ€™d be more than happy to apologise.

In my defence I would raise his previous posts and let the mods decide.


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## Sweep (Nov 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			I canâ€™t believe weâ€™re shifting the blame to organisations, there are many articles coming out were people did report things and then told â€œnot to rock the boatâ€, that information is then used against the alleged abuser as means of power.

You can have all the systems in the world in place, but if those in authority decide to ignore the system how does that help the complainant.

We wouldnâ€™t need systems in place if people respected one another.

Both your speeding analogies are against the law.
		
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No-one is shifting the blame to the organisations. I just said organisations must facilitate people coming forward, or are you against this?

So, I guess you are saying that all offences are equally bad? Sorry, that's just bonkers.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 4, 2017)

Sweep said:



			We have to be able to distinguish between offences. Offending someone is not a crime and as someone said, being offended does not mean you are right. Sexual assault is a crime. Making boorish and ill advised comments of a sexual nature is not a crime. It's stupid and pathetic but not criminal. If we can't distinguish that from sexual assault then we are simply failing victims of sexual assault.
Is speeding at 32mph in a 30 zone the same as speeding at 120mph in a 30 zone?
If any organisation fails to have proper procedures in place for dealing with all this then that organisation is failing its people and they are culpable.
		
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Making unwanted comments of a sexual nature can easily be classed as Sexual Abuse - you donâ€™t have to put hands on someone to sexually abuse them , can easily be in the form of words. 

Being offensive to someone can actually be a crime and one that can have severe consequences depends on the results of the offensive behaviour. 

So far both yourself and SR seem to be pointing fingers of blame at both the establishment and victims as opposed to the person who is being accused of said acts towards females. 

The more that comes to Light and the more people are told that these unwanted actions no matter how â€œtrivialâ€ they may seem are no longer tolerated then hopefully that will allow more victims to come forward and ensure people donâ€™t carry away with any sort of sexual abuse. 

The Victorian attitudes displayed by people like SR are hopefully dissolving away and itâ€™s because people are now being brave enough to come forward


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 4, 2017)

Sweep said:



			No-one is shifting the blame to the organisations. I just said organisations must facilitate people coming forward, or are you against this?

So, I guess you are saying that all offences are equally bad? Sorry, that's just bonkers.
		
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SR was blaming modern society and the media, Iâ€™m fully aware organisation have these procedures and absolutely agree with them, in this instance we are talking about Parliament, complainants have stated they lodged the complaint and nothing happened, the people in this organisation are not doing there job, therefore people in that system have no confidence in it. 

I am also positive lots of other organisations are not like this.

Didnâ€™t say all offences are equally bad, said both were illegal :thup:


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## chrisd (Nov 4, 2017)

It's funny that I seem to remember going to work in the late 60's 70's 80's 90's etc and we used to work pretty hard and for long hours, but we were often found having a laugh and joke, were pretty irreverent and the ladies joined in just as much. I shudder to think how boring the work place must be these days, I didn't realise that everyone was so precious and would think to complain about having a knee touched 15 years past.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 4, 2017)

The touching the knee thing is a red herring that people are focussing on, that was one of 3 alleged instances, the woman involved claims she dealt with it at the time.

He had a further 2 allegations put against him and he has resigned.

Maybe he should of stood his ground and fought against them all.

Chris,
People still work just as hard today and have as much fun, you can use your analogy for all sorts of things that happened between 60â€™s-90â€™s and Iâ€™m sure a lot of it we are glad weâ€™ve moved on. Just because it happened yesterday doesnâ€™t make it right for today.


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## Pin-seeker (Nov 4, 2017)

chrisd said:



			It's funny that I seem to remember going to work in the late 60's 70's 80's 90's etc and we used to work pretty hard and for long hours, but we were often found having a laugh and joke, were pretty irreverent and the ladies joined in just as much. I shudder to think how boring the work place must be these days, I didn't realise that everyone was so precious and would think to complain about having a knee touched 15 years past.
		
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Itâ€™s getting to the stage now where youâ€™re probably better off not talking to anyone. 

Wonder if Carragher will lodge a complaint against Henry in 15yrs timeðŸ¤”


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## Old Skier (Nov 4, 2017)

What does victims no favour in this is when (as in the first labour case) the victim prefers to discuss it in the media. If there is a serious allegation here should she not be talking to the police.


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## Dasit (Nov 4, 2017)

Men in my generation (Mid 20s) are starting to not even want to look at, let alone talk to women in the work place.



Just an accusation is enough to lose your job, have a media witch hunt, ruin your reputation.





Honestly, having an all male work place is the only solution down the line. Stop toxic men from sexually harassing women, and toxic women from making false accusations for their own benefit.


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## chrisd (Nov 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Chris,
People still work just as hard today and have as much fun, you can use your analogy for all sorts of things that happened between 60â€™s-90â€™s and Iâ€™m sure a lot of it we are glad weâ€™ve moved on. Just because it happened yesterday doesnâ€™t make it right for today.
		
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Doesn't necessarily make it wrong either!


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 4, 2017)

chrisd said:



			Doesn't necessarily make it wrong either!
		
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Weâ€™re back to the know your audience principle then mate, no one is saying itâ€™s all wrong, you know the difference and like me youâ€™ve probably seen or heard or took part in stuff that was acceptable during that period and wouldnâ€™t be tolerated today.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 4, 2017)

Dasit said:



			Men in my generation (Mid 20s) are starting to not even want to look at, let alone talk to women in the work place.



Just an accusation is enough to lose your job, have a media witch hunt, ruin your reputation.





Honestly, having an all male work place is the only solution down the line. Stop toxic men from sexually harassing women, and toxic women from making false accusations for their own benefit.
		
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How about just treating everyone as an equal and with respect.

You never heard of bullying or sexual harassment in all male environments then?


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## chrisd (Nov 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Weâ€™re back to the know your audience principle then mate, no one is saying itâ€™s all wrong, you know the difference and like me youâ€™ve probably seen or heard or took part in stuff that was acceptable during that period and wouldnâ€™t be tolerated today.
		
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True enough, I just don't agree with people being strung up for stuff that was acceptable back then and then being accused as if it were today. That view doesn't include people back then who did go further than was acceptable by most, and I think we all knew what the limits were in each decade.


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## Dasit (Nov 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			How about just treating everyone as an equal and with respect.

You never heard of bullying or sexual harassment in all male environments then?
		
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Not everyone lives in your lala fantasy land



Work place can be a harsh environment. Lot of office politics, can try to keep your head down but if someone has it in for you, sometimes you stand very little chance.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			How about just treating everyone as an equal and with respect.
		
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How about you doing it then.  My Yogurt comment was a reaction to your previous insulting comment and intended to show how silly it is to revert to that type of debate.   Can you not accept that some people have different views to you and just like you believe them to be relevant.  If you disagree with them then debate the subject matter rather than suggesting a different view means the holder is somehow from another century.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 4, 2017)

Dasit said:



			Not everyone lives in your lala fantasy land



Work place can be a harsh environment. Lot of office politics, can try to keep your head down but if someone has it in for you, sometimes you stand very little chance.
		
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36 years in the Army, over 15 years as an Equality and Diversity Advisor and Army Welfare Officer

Iâ€™ve seen and dealt with more bullying/sexual harrasment/homophobic behaviour than you can even imagine, 6 of those years were with Civil Servants in office environments.

Please donâ€™t try and dismiss my experience as lala fantasy land.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm not blaming the victims, I am questioning whether many can be called victims. Regarding Fallon: Because of the media and populous modus operandi we have now. We have driven out a very capable Minister through tittle tattle. No one has been mentally scarred by him.
		
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I am goiung to call this what it is,  "Bullshit".  If the minister has done such a great job and has also done nothing wrong why is he not defending his corner.   You like many others are saying that women should show more strength  of character, but  now they are doing this by calling it out your view seems to be that it is the men (and I know it is not always men)  in question that have become "Snowflakes".


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			How about you doing it then.  My Yogurt comment was a reaction to your previous insulting comment and intended to show how silly it is to revert to that type of debate.   Can you not accept that some people have different views to you and just like you believe them to be relevant.  If you disagree with them then debate the subject matter rather than suggesting a different view means the holder is somehow from another century.
		
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You constantly dismiss opposing views, my comment, again if you care to look back, was after you started on about people being holier than thou and keyboard warriors, how does that fit in to your rhetoric


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## Old Skier (Nov 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			36 years in the Army, over 15 years as an Equality and Diversity Advisor and Army Welfare Officer.
		
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I did chuckle when Fallon suggested he wasn't meeting the HIGH standards expected by the military


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			36 years in the Army, over 15 years as an Equality and Diversity Advisor and Army Welfare Officer

Iâ€™ve seen and dealt with more bullying/sexual harrasment/homophobic behaviour than you can even imagine, 6 of those years were with Civil Servants in office environments.

Please donâ€™t try and dismiss my experience as lala fantasy land.
		
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:lol: Reply of the month there.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 4, 2017)

Old Skier said:



			I did chuckle when Fallon suggested he wasn't meeting the HIGH standards expected by the military 

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Yep, same here


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## SocketRocket (Nov 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			You constantly dismiss opposing views, my comment, again if you care to look back, was after you started on about people being holier than thou and keyboard warriors, how does that fit in to your rhetoric 

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You are referring to my reply to LP who had joined you with insulting comments.   I could turn your comment around about dismissing opposing views, you seem quite apt at that and not slow in throwing in slurs on people who have them.  I understand quite clearly that you have taken a 'keyboard distance' dislike to me even though we have never met, this dislike affects your ability to debate with me in an educated manner. I appreciate you have valid viewpoints on such matters as this but please don't dismiss out of hand someone else by trying to make Smart Alec put downs.  Read the thread again and see who started these antics.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You are referring to my reply to LP who had joined you with insulting comments.   I could turn your comment around about dismissing opposing views, you seem quite apt at that and not slow in throwing in slurs on people who have them.  I understand quite clearly that you have taken a 'keyboard distance' dislike to me even though we have never met, this dislike affects your ability to debate with me in an educated manner. I appreciate you have valid viewpoints on such matters as this but please don't dismiss out of hand someone else by trying to make Smart Alec put downs.  Read the thread again and see who started these antics.
		
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Here we go.

I took your advice and completely re-read the thread, your first post confused people and you were questioned on it, you failed to explain what you meant and had a small toing and froing with another poster.

This morning you posted about thin skinned balderdash and professionally offended and those assaulted waiting 10/20/30 yrs etc and finished it off by stating you couldnâ€™t imagine any business not having a complaints procedure that could deal with this.

I answered your post followed by LP, as you answered his post first I took your comments as targeted to all those who disagreed with your post.

When you did answer my post it was on one point about me being naive, although if youâ€™d of been following this story you couldnâ€™t of missed the fact that it has come out that Parliament has no policy in place to deal with the allegations and the majority of political parties have either re-written or reviewed their policies as they were not suffice.

You then likened the allegations against Fallon as tittle tattle, despite one apparently being sexual assault.

Having never met you, I can assure you I have no like or dislike for you whatsoever, I will question any point of view I donâ€™t understand and I donâ€™t understand why Fallon would resign if there is no truth in any of the allegations. You have decided it is the problem with modern society and the media and have questioned everything else but him.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Here we go.

I took your advice and completely re-read the thread, your first post confused people and you were questioned on it, you failed to explain what you meant and had a small toing and froing with another poster.

This morning you posted about thin skinned balderdash and professionally offended and those assaulted waiting 10/20/30 yrs etc and finished it off by stating you couldnâ€™t imagine any business not having a complaints procedure that could deal with this.

I answered your post followed by LP, as you answered his post first I took your comments as targeted to all those who disagreed with your post.

When you did answer my post it was on one point about me being naive, although if youâ€™d of been following this story you couldnâ€™t of missed the fact that it has come out that Parliament has no policy in place to deal with the allegations and the majority of political parties have either re-written or reviewed their policies as they were not suffice.

You then likened the allegations against Fallon as tittle tattle, despite one apparently being sexual assault.

Having never met you, I can assure you I have no like or dislike for you whatsoever, I will question any point of view I donâ€™t understand and I donâ€™t understand why Fallon would resign if there is no truth in any of the allegations. You have decided it is the problem with modern society and the media and have questioned everything else but him.
		
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You seemed to have blanked the bit where you started making jibes suggesting I belonged to various past times.  Had I made any personal comments about you by then?


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 4, 2017)

Is there anyone on here who believes that Fallon resigned for putting his hand on a female journalist's knee ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			You seemed to have blanked the bit where you started making jibes suggesting I belonged to various past times.  Had I made any personal comments about you by then?
		
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Thatâ€™s were I said you answered LPâ€™s post first and your comments were aimed at us both, so when I mentioned you belonging in the 70â€™s you answered with yogurt knitter thus reinforcing my belief.
If you had said those comments werenâ€™t aimed at me instead of yogurt knitter I would of apologised.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 4, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Is there anyone on here who believes that Fallon resigned for putting his hand on a female journalist's knee ?
		
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Not me.

Richard Madeley made a good point early this week, stick with me. He pointed out that men know what is crossing the line, they know it. He was right. You don't touch women, other than your wife or girlfriend &#128513;, if you are a man, ever. You don't touch their knee, their arms, their shoulders or anywhere. We know that, we really do. Anyone claiming otherwise is a dinosaur. 

I've been in offices etc for 25 + years and never felt the need to touch a woman in any way. I keep a bubble around any woman and don't enter that bubble. Not hard to do.


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## dewsweeper (Nov 4, 2017)

I seem to have stumbled into a parallel universe!
What happened to innocent until proved  guilty?
What happened to taking responsibility for ones own actions?
Like it or not Pandoras Box is open and can never be closed.
I do not have the inclination to argue a case but I really do not like trial by media and social media
We have moved so far away from genuine predators like HW and every one will have to think twice before any  interaction in social intercourse.


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## Hobbit (Nov 4, 2017)

Why did Fallon resign over a knee touch? You've got to be blinkered to think this wasn't a deflection for greater sins. An cynical attempt to retain some moral credibility and to almost appear as a (media) victim himself. People focussed on the knee touch and his subsequent resignation speech/interviews and then ate their next spoonful of celebrity news rather than read the second paragraph of a developing story.

Was he a good and capable Minister? Yes, but that should have absolutely no bearing on reviewing what he has allegedly done. Being a good Minister doesn't make him any better than a production line supervisor who is guilty of the same thing.

Do organisations have mechanisms in place to deal with sexual harassment? In pretty much every case, yes. Do they use them to them as they should? No. And the biggest failing I've seen, on several occasions is favouritism. Having an MD and two Directors say to me, in the post-hearing meeting they attended after sitting in on the hearing itself, "you make the decision."

Are women guilty of it? Of course they are. But let's not say that to diminish or in some way excuse men. Both offending sexes are guilty of the same thing, both of which should be stomped on hard.


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## pokerjoke (Nov 4, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Why did Fallon resign over a knee touch? You've got to be blinkered to think this wasn't a deflection for greater sins. An cynical attempt to retain some moral credibility and to almost appear as a (media) victim himself. People focussed on the knee touch and his subsequent resignation speech/interviews and then ate their next spoonful of celebrity news rather than read the second paragraph of a developing story.

Was he a good and capable Minister? Yes, but that should have absolutely no bearing on reviewing what he has allegedly done. Being a good Minister doesn't make him any better than a production line supervisor who is guilty of the same thing.

Do organisations have mechanisms in place to deal with sexual harassment? In pretty much every case, yes. Do they use them to them as they should? No. And the biggest failing I've seen, on several occasions is favouritism. Having an MD and two Directors say to me, in the post-hearing meeting they attended after sitting in on the hearing itself, "you make the decision."

Are women guilty of it? Of course they are. But let's not say that to diminish or in some way excuse men. Both offending sexes are guilty of the same thing, both of which should be stomped on hard.
		
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Well said your first paragraph IMO is spot on.


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## SocketRocket (Nov 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Thatâ€™s were I said you answered LPâ€™s post first and your comments were aimed at us both, so when I mentioned you belonging in the 70â€™s you answered with yogurt knitter thus reinforcing my belief.
If you had said those comments werenâ€™t aimed at me instead of yogurt knitter I would of apologised.
		
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What ever.  This is becoming laborious and not worth further comment.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 4, 2017)

SocketRocket said:



			What ever.  This is becoming laborious and not worth further comment.
		
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You moan about debate, I answered your questions and even said I would of apologised.

Now itâ€™s becoming laborious and not worth further comment.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 4, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Not me.

Richard Madeley made a good point early this week, stick with me. He pointed out that men know what is crossing the line, they know it. He was right. You don't touch women, other than your wife or girlfriend &#128513;, if you are a man, ever. You don't touch their knee, their arms, their shoulders or anywhere. We know that, we really do. Anyone claiming otherwise is a dinosaur. 

I've been in offices etc for 25 + years and never felt the need to touch a woman in any way. I keep a bubble around any woman and don't enter that bubble. Not hard to do.
		
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What about your wife and your girlfriend.

Jo Brand had a well delivered good swipe at the 'Jolly Boys' on last nights HIGNFY.
They looked suitably embarrassed.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 4, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What about your wife and your girlfriend.

Jo Brand had a well delivered good swipe at the 'Jolly Boys' on last nights HIGNFY.
They looked suitably embarrassed.
		
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Thankfully my girlfriend became my wife so that's okay &#128513;.

I thought she spoke very well. To be fair it was pretty much targeted at Quentin Letts who did himself no favours and gave a good impression of someone with an attitude that is part of the problem. I thought the others, although all older men, were not culpable.


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## Sweep (Nov 4, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			If he wishes to complain and his case is found correct, Iâ€™d be more than happy to apologise.

In my defence I would raise his previous posts and let the mods decide.
		
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Good grief


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## Sweep (Nov 4, 2017)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Making unwanted comments of a sexual nature can easily be classed as Sexual Abuse - you donâ€™t have to put hands on someone to sexually abuse them , can easily be in the form of words. 

Being offensive to someone can actually be a crime and one that can have severe consequences depends on the results of the offensive behaviour. 

So far both yourself and SR seem to be pointing fingers of blame at both the establishment and victims as opposed to the person who is being accused of said acts towards females. 

The more that comes to Light and the more people are told that these unwanted actions no matter how â€œtrivialâ€ they may seem are no longer tolerated then hopefully that will allow more victims to come forward and ensure people donâ€™t carry away with any sort of sexual abuse. 

The Victorian attitudes displayed by people like SR are hopefully dissolving away and itâ€™s because people are now being brave enough to come forward
		
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So verbal "abuse" is of the same magnitude as physical abuse?
As I asked, is speeding at 32 in a 30 limit the same as speeding at 120mph in a 30 limit?
If something is against the law then that is the only consideration? Murder is the same as shoplifting?
We have probably all been guilty of posting something on here that might offend someone, especially the professionally offended who are often offended on others behalf. Should we all lose our jobs?
I think you misunderstand. Both myself and I guess SR are not blaming the victims. We are simply suggesting that there are serious cases of sexual abuse and clearly less serious claims that whilst in bad taste and ill advised do not amount to criminal behaviour or anything like it. It's a very easy, very lazy and an absolutely incorrect argument to associate those who question both sides of the story with supporting unacceptable behaviour. If someone made an unsubstantiated and false claim against you, I don't think you would want the complainer believed as a matter of course. 
The only time I am suggesting that the establishment is at fault is when they fail to listen to a complaint. If you want people to come forward if they are abused, I don't really know why you would disagree with that.
No-one has suggested any of this is trivial. I am suggesting that there are far more serious cases and that we must not let this distract us from dealing with real abuse.
This is not an argument for Victorian, 1970's or 1870's attitudes. It's asking for a common sense approach.


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## Sweep (Nov 4, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Is there anyone on here who believes that Fallon resigned for putting his hand on a female journalist's knee ?
		
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Do keep up. The story has moved on


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## Sweep (Nov 4, 2017)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Not me.

Richard Madeley made a good point early this week, stick with me. He pointed out that men know what is crossing the line, they know it. He was right. You don't touch women, other than your wife or girlfriend &#62977;, if you are a man, ever. You don't touch their knee, their arms, their shoulders or anywhere. We know that, we really do. Anyone claiming otherwise is a dinosaur. 

I've been in offices etc for 25 + years and never felt the need to touch a woman in any way. I keep a bubble around any woman and don't enter that bubble. Not hard to do.
		
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I agree.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 5, 2017)

Sweep said:



			So verbal "abuse" is of the same magnitude as physical abuse?
As I asked, is speeding at 32 in a 30 limit the same as speeding at 120mph in a 30 limit?
If something is against the law then that is the only consideration? Murder is the same as shoplifting?
We have probably all been guilty of posting something on here that might offend someone, especially the professionally offended who are often offended on others behalf. Should we all lose our jobs?
I think you misunderstand. Both myself and I guess SR are not blaming the victims. We are simply suggesting that there are serious cases of sexual abuse and clearly less serious claims that whilst in bad taste and ill advised do not amount to criminal behaviour or anything like it. It's a very easy, very lazy and an absolutely incorrect argument to associate those who question both sides of the story with supporting unacceptable behaviour. If someone made an unsubstantiated and false claim against you, I don't think you would want the complainer believed as a matter of course. 
The only time I am suggesting that the establishment is at fault is when they fail to listen to a complaint. If you want people to come forward if they are abused, I don't really know why you would disagree with that.
No-one has suggested any of this is trivial. I am suggesting that there are far more serious cases and that we must not let this distract us from dealing with real abuse.
This is not an argument for Victorian, 1970's or 1870's attitudes. It's asking for a common sense approach.
		
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So SR describing the allegations against Fallon as tittle tattle isnâ€™t suggesting itâ€™s trivial?

You keep mentioning 32mph and 120mph, they are both illegal.

E&D complaints in the workplace come under Civil Law and do not neccessrily involve the Police, somebody making a sexual advance/comment can be dealt totally in house, totally different to actual physical assault which can be dealt with under Criminal Law and not Civil Law.

Murder, shoplifting, 32 in a 30, 120 in a 30, would all be dealt with under the same system, no on is suggesting they are identical crimes.

If you were sacked for bullying someone in your workplace and you got a lawyer to appeal and took the firm to court, it would be dealt with under civil law.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 5, 2017)

The problem as I see it is that Westminster is totally out of date and not fit for purpose.

MP's can basically behave as they wish and other than the totally corrupt party whip system there are no systems in place to protect people working there.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 5, 2017)

...


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## Hobbit (Nov 5, 2017)

Sweep said:



			I am suggesting that there are far more serious cases and that we must not let this distract us from dealing with real abuse.
This is not an argument for Victorian, 1970's or 1870's attitudes. It's asking for a common sense approach.
		
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Whilst I agree with a fair lump of what you posted I think you're totally wrong with the above. "Real abuse" starts when the line is crossed. The line isn't fuzzy, with a "oh here's a gentle slap on the wrist for a mild transgression." Having crossed the line it becomes more about punishment for the crime that varies depending on the severity of the transgression.

The common sense approach, I feel, must come with an acknowledgement that any sexual abuse, even just pestering an individual with unwanted advances, is just not acceptable.

But going back to Fallon's resignation based around touching a journalist's knee we now hear that there are other transgressions. I think May has missed an opportunity to stand up immediately after his resignation speech and say he was asked to resign for far more serious reasons. Making a statement like that would have sent a strong message out other transgressors that there is no hiding place, and also to other victims that they will be supported.


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## bluewolf (Nov 5, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Whilst I agree with a fair lump of what you posted I think you're totally wrong with the above. "Real abuse" starts when the line is crossed. The line isn't fuzzy, with a "oh here's a gentle slap on the wrist for a mild transgression." Having crossed the line it becomes more about punishment for the crime that varies depending on the severity of the transgression.

The common sense approach, I feel, must come with an acknowledgement that any sexual abuse, even just pestering an individual with unwanted advances, is just not acceptable.

But going back to Fallon's resignation based around touching a journalist's knee we now hear that there are other transgressions. I think May has missed an opportunity to stand up immediately after his resignation speech and say he was asked to resign for far more serious reasons. Making a statement like that would have sent a strong message out other transgressors that there is no hiding place, and also to other victims that they will be supported.
		
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Agreed. Whilst some offences may seem minor, they are cumulative and the pressure on an individual can build to significant levels over time. It can't be too hard to be professional in the workplace. If someone is struggling with that concept then they have issues need dealing with.


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## Sweep (Nov 5, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The problem as I see it is that Westminster is totally out of date and not fit for purpose.

MP's can basically behave as they wish and other than the totally corrupt party whip system there are no systems in place to protect people working there.
		
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Isn't there the Parliamentary Standards Committee?
Do you think that your post may be a little bit politically motivated? In that regard is Holyrood any better? In the same context, is Holyrood fit for purpose?


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## Old Skier (Nov 5, 2017)

First place to get rid of are the bars. Why do you need a bar selling alcohol in the workplace. Recipe for trouble.


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## Sweep (Nov 5, 2017)

Hobbit said:



			Whilst I agree with a fair lump of what you posted I think you're totally wrong with the above. "Real abuse" starts when the line is crossed. The line isn't fuzzy, with a "oh here's a gentle slap on the wrist for a mild transgression." Having crossed the line it becomes more about punishment for the crime that varies depending on the severity of the transgression.

The common sense approach, I feel, must come with an acknowledgement that any sexual abuse, even just pestering an individual with unwanted advances, is just not acceptable.

But going back to Fallon's resignation based around touching a journalist's knee we now hear that there are other transgressions. I think May has missed an opportunity to stand up immediately after his resignation speech and say he was asked to resign for far more serious reasons. Making a statement like that would have sent a strong message out other transgressors that there is no hiding place, and also to other victims that they will be supported.
		
Click to expand...

I totally agree. I am not trying to belittle these cases or defend the offenders. However, when you are talking about comments or touching a knee, that line that gets crossed gets blurred when you consider context, the time, the place etc. We only hear of one side of the interaction. What was the mood? Was alchohol on both sides involved? Had the complainer made any suggestion or indication they may be open to an advance (and no, this is not a suggestion she was asking for it). What constitutes an unwanted advance? Is asking someone out who isn't interested an unwanted advance? Offering to buy them a drink? How do you know it's unwanted unless you ask?
How many times do we hear of chat up lines? How often on tv shows do we hear someone being asked what their best chat up line is? How many of these are as bad or worse than Fallon is alleged to have said to Leadsom? Do these cross the line? Or does the line move depending on where you are or what time of day it is?
I have a friend who asked his now wife out 5 times before she said yes. Whenever it is mentioned all the ladies think it's romantic, including his wife. In this context it's harassment.
My point is that life is just not that black and white. The intention of my speeding analogy was to illustrate just that. 32mph is not as bad as 120mph. One can be accidental, the other a clearly intentional breaking of the law. My fear is that if we do not instil some common sense into this then we risk becoming a distant and humourless society, scared to death of offending someone or being reported and suffering reputational damage. Some talk of 1970's attitudes, but do we really want to go back to the time of Mr. Darcy, where dating was done with chaperones and marriages were largely fabricated because being married was the done thing?
In truth, we all know where the line is and we know you don't cross it. But reporting people for these kinds of offences as Leadsom is alleged to have done and the faux uproar and offence taken on her behalf risks placing this line in doubt and is simply using unwritten rules of a non black and white society to an individuals own advantage. It also risks undermining and belittling more serious cases because others who simply read about such cases think the victim is just another gold digger or attention seeker.
Does it not worry anyone that we only ever hear about this stuff when it happens in Hollywood, football or politics?


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## Old Skier (Nov 5, 2017)

Rumours coming from Westminister that "The List" was compiled by a researcher from Herr Mandlesons office.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 5, 2017)

Sweep said:



			I totally agree. I am not trying to belittle these cases or defend the offenders. However, when you are talking about comments or touching a knee, that line that gets crossed gets blurred when you consider context, the time, the place etc. We only hear of one side of the interaction. What was the mood? Was alchohol on both sides involved? Had the complainer made any suggestion or indication they may be open to an advance (and no, this is not a suggestion she was asking for it). What constitutes an unwanted advance? Is asking someone out who isn't interested an unwanted advance? Offering to buy them a drink? How do you know it's unwanted unless you ask?
How many times do we hear of chat up lines? How often on tv shows do we hear someone being asked what their best chat up line is? How many of these are as bad or worse than Fallon is alleged to have said to Leadsom? Do these cross the line? Or does the line move depending on where you are or what time of day it is?
I have a friend who asked his now wife out 5 times before she said yes. Whenever it is mentioned all the ladies think it's romantic, including his wife. In this context it's harassment.
My point is that life is just not that black and white. The intention of my speeding analogy was to illustrate just that. 32mph is not as bad as 120mph. One can be accidental, the other a clearly intentional breaking of the law. My fear is that if we do not instil some common sense into this then we risk becoming a distant and humourless society, scared to death of offending someone or being reported and suffering reputational damage. Some talk of 1970's attitudes, but do we really want to go back to the time of Mr. Darcy, where dating was done with chaperones and marriages were largely fabricated because being married was the done thing?
In truth, we all know where the line is and we know you don't cross it. But reporting people for these kinds of offences as Leadsom is alleged to have done and the faux uproar and offence taken on her behalf risks placing this line in doubt and is simply using unwritten rules of a non black and white society to an individuals own advantage. It also risks undermining and belittling more serious cases because others who simply read about such cases think the victim is just another gold digger or attention seeker.
Does it not worry anyone that we only ever hear about this stuff when it happens in Hollywood, football or politics?
		
Click to expand...

Good post, and one (apart from the speeding analogy) I find hard to disagree with if we are talking in general, weâ€™re not though, if it had been the single allegation against Fallon and heâ€™d of stood his ground and fought it then we let due process take place, he didnâ€™t, he resigned and admitted his behaviour wasnâ€™t of an acceptable standard.

What has followed is people questioning the system or the alleged complainant, just about everything else but him, heâ€™s accepted his behaviour was wrong and it seems heâ€™s being portrayed as a victim.


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## Sweep (Nov 5, 2017)

pauldj42 said:



			Good post, and one (apart from the speeding analogy) I find hard to disagree with if we are talking in general, weâ€™re not though, if it had been the single allegation against Fallon and heâ€™d of stood his ground and fought it then we let due process take place, he didnâ€™t, he resigned and admitted his behaviour wasnâ€™t of an acceptable standard.

What has followed is people questioning the system or the alleged complainant, just about everything else but him, heâ€™s accepted his behaviour was wrong and it seems heâ€™s being portrayed as a victim.
		
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Which is a problem when a story moves faster than a thread.
I am certainly not defending Fallon and as far as I can see he has admitted wrong doing and taken his punishment (whilst at the same time saying some claims are untrue). My posts on this thread were on the wider context of social behaviour, boundaries and the offences Leadsom was alleged to have made against Fallon and their effect.


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## drdel (Nov 5, 2017)

'Collars are definitely getting hot' but it might be an idea to take a breath and remember, unfortunately, we are all short of the facts.

The reported stories are claims by one person against another. It is not unknown for people to argue and take different views of the same circumstances/conversation (remember the kids game "Chinese whispers?). 

Some ladies can be manipulative, liars and cheats with a suspect moral compass; these traits are not unique to the male species.

Consequently, it may be a disappointment but people (men and women) can be good and bad in equal measure - its why we have the 'laws of the land' the basis of which is "innocent until proven guilty". The idea is that a number of other people remote from the claims assess what took place at the time.

Bad behaviour, harassment and abuse of power should not be condoned in anyway; but that does not mean that rushed 'kangaroo court' judgement can then take precedent when one-sided allegations are made. If society believes that the boundaries of what is termed bad behaviour or assault needs to be redefined as 'crimes' then that's fine and clear.

My concern is that what is happening is that 'claims' are being made and judgements made before and totally devoid of context or opportunity for rebuttal.


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## Hobbit (Nov 5, 2017)

Sweep said:



			I totally agree. I am not trying to belittle these cases or defend the offenders. However, when you are talking about comments or touching a knee, that line that gets crossed gets blurred when you consider context, the time, the place etc. We only hear of one side of the interaction. What was the mood? Was alchohol on both sides involved? Had the complainer made any suggestion or indication they may be open to an advance (and no, this is not a suggestion she was asking for it). What constitutes an unwanted advance? Is asking someone out who isn't interested an unwanted advance? Offering to buy them a drink? How do you know it's unwanted unless you ask?
How many times do we hear of chat up lines? How often on tv shows do we hear someone being asked what their best chat up line is? How many of these are as bad or worse than Fallon is alleged to have said to Leadsom? Do these cross the line? Or does the line move depending on where you are or what time of day it is?
I have a friend who asked his now wife out 5 times before she said yes. Whenever it is mentioned all the ladies think it's romantic, including his wife. In this context it's harassment.
My point is that life is just not that black and white. The intention of my speeding analogy was to illustrate just that. 32mph is not as bad as 120mph. One can be accidental, the other a clearly intentional breaking of the law. My fear is that if we do not instil some common sense into this then we risk becoming a distant and humourless society, scared to death of offending someone or being reported and suffering reputational damage. Some talk of 1970's attitudes, but do we really want to go back to the time of Mr. Darcy, where dating was done with chaperones and marriages were largely fabricated because being married was the done thing?
In truth, we all know where the line is and we know you don't cross it. But reporting people for these kinds of offences as Leadsom is alleged to have done and the faux uproar and offence taken on her behalf risks placing this line in doubt and is simply using unwritten rules of a non black and white society to an individuals own advantage. It also risks undermining and belittling more serious cases because others who simply read about such cases think the victim is just another gold digger or attention seeker.
Does it not worry anyone that we only ever hear about this stuff when it happens in Hollywood, football or politics?
		
Click to expand...

The line doesn't get blurred with the context. Context actually crystalizes the offence. Someone can touch their wife's knee or girl friend's but as a 'first contact' its inappropriate. "Lunging for a kiss," as melodramatic as it sounds, as Fallon is reported as doing in the most recent allegation is totally inappropriate because of the context. 

However, we've probably all experienced the occasion where you're out with a girl, the eyes linger a little longer and you both find yourselves leaning forward for a kiss. That's body language that sends the message "oh go on then." That again is in context.

Context doesn't blur it, it defines it.


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## User62651 (Nov 5, 2017)

Best way is keep work and social life completely separate whenever possible I think, risks of flirting in the workplace backfiring are too high, no escape when it goes wrong.
That's offset by there still being an office culture where the bosses (male bosses tbh) throw the staff Christmans Party with free booze, secretly hope people will get horribly drunk and misbehave and embarrass themselves, some usually do, then they have either some tittle tattle to gossip about for the next few months or a new office 'hero' or 'legend' who did this or that when blind drunk, chuckle chuckle. Seen it often enough in the past, that culture needs to change.


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## MegaSteve (Nov 5, 2017)

So, in the corporate world where does cheek kissing, as a greeting, fit in?


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## Sweep (Nov 5, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			So, in the corporate world where does cheek kissing, as a greeting, fit in?
		
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For me it doesn't. I just hold out my hand to shake a woman's hand. It's kind of a shame as the old fashioned side of me thinks women should be treated in a more gentlemanly way but it's just much safer. It's not the kind of a firm warm handshake men give to each other. If I think about it, it's a bit of a compromise.
The only time I would kiss a woman on the cheek is after a game of mixed golf or someone I know well socially. I have noticed more young people doing it though in a kind of continental way, often with one of them saying something in explanation, because well, we are British and reserved.
Oddly enough I deal with a few men from far flung places across the world who I maybe meet a couple of times a year and we will often greet each other with a manly hug. I would never do that with a woman in the corporate world.
Social interaction is a strange thing when you think about it.


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## FairwayDodger (Nov 5, 2017)

While I understand the concern, I think all the chat about what and isn't acceptable is a bit of a distraction. As others have said, context is important but in any situation we do all really know where the line is and it's not difficult to stay on the right side of it.

An interesting point I heard today, which I think demonstrates this, is that none of these people are behaving improperly with anyone who has the power to fire them.


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## Lord Tyrion (Nov 5, 2017)

MegaSteve said:



			So, in the corporate world where does cheek kissing, as a greeting, fit in?
		
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As per Sweep, I would never greet a woman at work with a kiss on the cheek, nor have I seen it. Always a hand shake. It's work, not a night out.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 5, 2017)

Sweep said:



			Isn't there the Parliamentary Standards Committee?
Do you think that your post may be a little bit politically motivated? In that regard is Holyrood any better? In the same context, is Holyrood fit for purpose?
		
Click to expand...

Yet more whataboutry from you.

The Standards Committee, duck houses etc.etc. 
Talking out good private members bills.
As I said, not fit for purpose


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## Sweep (Nov 5, 2017)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yet more whataboutry from you.

The Standards Committee, duck houses etc.etc. 
Talking out good private members bills.
As I said, not fit for purpose
		
Click to expand...

Haha. A bit rich coming from the King of whataboutry.
Ever heard of Mark McDonald and Willie Coffey?
Are you suggesting this problem does not exist at Holyrood? Thought not.


https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/we-re...n-msprevealed-parliamentary-sex-harassment-s/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ottish-Parliament-claims-misconduct-abuse/amp


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 5, 2017)

Sweep said:



			Haha. A bit rich coming from the King of whataboutry.
Ever heard of Mark McDonald and Willie Coffey?
Are you suggesting this problem does not exist at Holyrood? Thought not.


https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/we-re...n-msprevealed-parliamentary-sex-harassment-s/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ottish-Parliament-claims-misconduct-abuse/amp

Click to expand...

Deflection now.....one more and it's BINGO.:whoo:

The Sunday Post.:lol:


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## Old Skier (Nov 5, 2017)

Sweep said:



			Haha. A bit rich coming from the King of whataboutry.
Ever heard of Mark McDonald and Willie Coffey?
Are you suggesting this problem does not exist at Holyrood? Thought not.


https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/we-re...n-msprevealed-parliamentary-sex-harassment-s/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ottish-Parliament-claims-misconduct-abuse/amp

Click to expand...

Can't be true it's not mentioned in the Loones blog


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## Old Skier (Nov 5, 2017)




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## ColchesterFC (Nov 5, 2017)

Sweep said:



			Haha. A bit rich coming from the King of whataboutry.
Ever heard of Mark McDonald and Willie Coffey?
Are you suggesting this problem does not exist at Holyrood? Thought not.


https://www.sundaypost.com/fp/we-re...n-msprevealed-parliamentary-sex-harassment-s/

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ottish-Parliament-claims-misconduct-abuse/amp

Click to expand...

Come on Sweep, you know the Doom rules......SNP good, Tory bad. Holyrood good, Westminster bad. You don't need to actually read any of his posts, just repeat the previous sentence in your head and you'll know what he's written.


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## Doon frae Troon (Nov 5, 2017)

Lots of denial  going on here tonight as the 'Establishment' goes into meltdown.

We have had whataboutry, deflection, denial, insults and rude comments [naturally].
We only have  'a big boy done it and ran away' left.


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