# Club Fittings - science in action or snake oil for sale?



## JohnnyDee (Aug 4, 2016)

Rather than hijack the Wentworth Taylor Made thread I thought I'd start a new one on the broader topic of club fitting sessions.

One thing we all want but find hard to achieve as golfers is consistency, I mean even the Tour Pros don't have it. Look at Rory, Henrik, Jason et al. How often do we hear them post-round telling Sarah Stirk that they feel 'this element' of their swing is coming together or 'that element' seems to be getting nearer to where they want it to be etc.

So as club players of varying, and it must be said wide ranging swing skills, we rock up to our fitting session. Now consider a phenomenon that we all can probably relate to. On any given day we can play like a god and believe we have finally cracked this wretched game, then we come out the following day full of hope and belief that we're going to burn the course up, only to knob it round like an absolute beginner. The problem is our inconsistency and like the weather it's pretty changeable and always with us. Quite often often we don't know who's getting out of the car and stepping on to the first tee.

Nevertheless and meanwhile back in the fitting studio we are totally prepared to believe that our Tour Pro alter ego has shown up on the day and not our slicing-hooking-shanking-duffing-hacking one. I mean heaven forbid that we'd have a ropey swing on fitting day, Eh? . Purrrlease! So operating on full blind faith mode and convinced that we're on top form we're quickly shown how the latest _Mega-Thump QSX 7s _outperform our tired old bats by a country mile - giving us Y yards more carry, a thousand more / less revolutions, a launch angle of X degrees better and so on and so on. We then place our order for the new clubs and get all excited wearing out the hall carpet waiting for the Parcelforce geezer to turn up with the saviours of our game.

Sidebar - has anyone ever gone for a club fitting only to be told "What you've got in your hands is the very thing for you my boy! Yessiree Bob, don't even think of changing it for one second." Never happened to me or any of my mates who have been fitted.

Many of us are taking a massive leap of faith in believing, or wanting to believe, that with less than consistent repeatable swings, somehow we performed in the studio with our A game and now the computer has come up with the perfect club fit for us. 

Me? I'm not convinced I'm afraid. Been there, done it, even enjoyed it but I did it because I was keen to believe that it would take my game to the next level. It didn't - but that's more about my inconsistency I'd say - and after six months all I had was a nagging doubt about the science. 

I realise that this will split the group and there will be opinions on both sides, I am sure that the 'better' we are will help form our view on the relative merits of club fitting, oh and just in case there are some out there with their ultra-serious head on, there is an element of tongue-in-cheek to this post, and I don't doubt that many have benefited from a fitting, but equally I'm sure there may well be many others whose handicaps post-fitting remain the same or even increase, and that they could possibly think that rather than having bought into 'the secret', they have in fact been sold a big old drum of snake oil 

*Dons suit of armour and awaits the onslaught* :mmm:


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 4, 2016)

JohnnyDee said:



			Sidebar - has anyone ever gone for a club fitting only to be told "What you've got in your hands is the very thing for you my boy! Yessiree Bob, don't even think of changing it for one second." Never happened to me or any of my mates who have been fitted.
		
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Yes.  Was looking for a new driver a few years ago, Silvermere had a multi manufacturer day.  Had tried a Callaway, then tried a Ping, which I thought went better.  Spoke to the Ping guy, took it back to the Callaway bay, spoke to the bloke who fitted me, hit a few and was told stick to the Ping, it goes better than our one.


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## ScienceBoy (Aug 4, 2016)

Whatever gives you confidence, confidence breeds success.

I certainly would feel more confident having seen some evidence compared to  buying off the shelf.

If it doesn't give you confidence it won't improve your game.


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## 351DRIVER (Aug 4, 2016)

You can certainly improve dispersion or distance at a fitting by tinkering with a bias towards one or the other.

How do you balance 5 yards distance against 2.5 yards dispersion, the OPTIMAL flight is a hard thing to pin down

I think a fitting is worth having to ensure you are not using something that is totally inappropriate but much beyond that i do not see it, most golfers can pick stuff up off the rack and use it, if not you probably have swing issues.

I can hit ladies, regular, stiff and x stiff without issue, this tells me i have a decent swing, if you cannot hit regular and you think you need a stiff as the shaft makes you hook or slice, look first at your swing!


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## Hosel Fade (Aug 4, 2016)

JohnnyDee said:



			Rather than hijack the Wentworth Taylor Made thread I thought I'd start a new one on the broader topic of club fitting sessions.

Sidebar - has anyone ever gone for a club fitting only to be told "What you've got in your hands is the very thing for you my boy! Yessiree Bob, don't even think of changing it for one second." Never happened to me or any of my mates who have been fitted.
		
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Yep, happened with my hybrid I was using at the time at precision golf.

You are much more consistent than you would think in terms of tendencies and those can be fitted for


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## chrisd (Aug 4, 2016)

I absolutely buy into club  fitting and even spent 90 minutes yesterday on a GC2 monitor with HMT. It's the only way if being certain that what you buy suits your swing

Only thing is that 3 weeks ago I borrowed back a set if irons that I road tested the 6 iron, loved them and just took the set off the rack in the pro shop, and, they were the set that I scored my best ever round with !!


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## guest100718 (Aug 4, 2016)

All a bit of a gimmick really. You hear people pluck figures from the air like custom fit will knock 5 shots of your gam.  The reality is practice will do that,  fitted clubs won't.


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## Imurg (Aug 4, 2016)

All I can say is that I've been for a fair few fittings down the years and all, ALL, my best rounds have been with non-fitted clubs either purchased new off the shelf or 2nd name from eBay/Golf bidder.....

Up to a point, fitting is a good idea. Getting the right flex of shaft and the correct lie is important.
But it's how the ball flies off the club face and whether you can hit the ball where you want to that matter.

Does a 1/4 inch on the shaft, 1Â° on the lie or an extra tape under the grip really make that much difference to us..?

Having said all the above I recently acquired a new driver via a fitting session with a Callaway fitter at my club.
I've always been fitted, and felt more comfortable with 55-60g stiff shafts in drivers - and I've been rubbish for a long time.
The fitter gave me a heavy regular, about 75g, and the results are, quite frankly, astonishing....
So it can work, but I've had more misses than hits with fittings - I've never, ever been able to reproduce the carry distances shown on the monitors.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 4, 2016)

I've been to fittings and while I understand there is a degree of science to it, the guy is also going to do his best to convince you that one set or another is working better than what you had, certainly in most cases although I will concede there are rare times when this isn't the case.

I like going to these things and seeing how various shafts/heads etc can change my numbers and dispersion both sideways and front and back. I happen to think that things like lie angle can make a big difference especially to the average player without a text book swing and it's about finding something that they can use without having to reinvent the wheel and change their swings. I also accept they don't give a fix all solution and the player still has to put a passable swing at the ball but it will give confidence, at least in the short term and that usually helps performance. 

It's not for everyone and many play perfectly well off the peg. I've used off the peg and been fitted, arguably to equally mediocre success. However I do think the technology of the monitor and the advice of a good fitter can explain why their shots go where they do and a fitting can perhaps minimise the bad ones to a degree. I love the process and given the chance would rather get fitted and know what I've got is the best for me, even if that's purely based on the swing I brought that day


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## turkish (Aug 4, 2016)

As someone with off the rack clubs I do hope to one day get fitted... That said I'm not sure if it's really going to make all that a difference to my strikes.

In terms of being told what I have is fine- happened the other week when I went for a putter fitting at clydeway in Blantyre. Was so looking to spend a fortune on a new putter but was told what I had was perfectly fine and I was to work on technique.

The samm puttlab is something else my putting has improved a lot


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## stevek1969 (Aug 4, 2016)

I recently did the TM demo day at my club, I'm back using my SLDR 12 degree with a Matrix RUL shaft in Stiff, now its a great club but it doesn't go far and the shaft is a bit shorter than what is standard now, i just thought the shaft was to stiff for me.

Hit a few with mine into the wind it just hangs up in the air, he fitted me with an M2 with a 3 wood shaft and Aldila Rogue shaft set at 10.5 in stiff, decent results then he put a standard length shaft in and poor results, he put the loft up to 11 with a Speeder 757 evolution 75 g shaft in stiff a much better flight and gained about 11 yards carry with a shaft that is 1inch shorter , went back and hit my own and the same shot hanging up in the wind.

Not sure if I'm going to buy as on saturday at Tain in windy conditions i hit the driver well and didn't miss many fairways


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## Qwerty (Aug 4, 2016)

I've had countless so called 'club fittings' and the only time any of them have got it right was at the old Mizuno Fitting Centre at Clays GC in Wrexham (Shame it isn't still there) 

I was fitted for a set of MP53s and they're still in the bag despite being fitted for and then selling several iron sets in the meantime. Nothing has come close to the 53s. 
Although its hard to tell when your hitting balls on an indoor LM and the so called fitter is telling you your getting great figures and the new shineys are luring you in.

I won't buy any club now without trying it out over a few sessions on a range, initially it's got to feel right in the hands and suit my eye, something a LM can't tell me. 

I've no doubt though that club fitting actually works, it just needs to be done correctly by someone with experience who genuinely wants to find the best Club/Shaft combo for you. 
As the golfer, Maybe we have to pay a little more for the kind of service that gets it right. As I reckon finding the right combo should usually take far longer than 30 mins on a LM, banging balls into a net before handing over Â£600+.


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## mcbroon (Aug 4, 2016)

I'm just back this evening from a fitting at AG (take that as you will).

I'd be very cynical about having a fitting on an indoor mat, or somewhere where I couldn't actually see the flight, but doing it on an outdoor range was a bit of an eye-opener. 

Tried 6 different clubs and it's interesting to combine what you feel and see with the numbers. It's also amazing to see how much the different shaft and head combinations can affect performance. 

I already knew that my driver was not doing me any favours but the extra performance I got from the new one was surprising. However, I don't think I'd have been able to tell from feel and numbers alone - a good, solid hit feels like a good, solid hit. So to me, it's vital that you see the flight of the ball too. 

I'll be very interested to see whether it translates on to the course.


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## Smiffy (Aug 5, 2016)

If I hit a ball off grass I can *sometimes* hit a perfect shot.
If I hit a ball off a mat, I *never* hit a perfect shot.
I was fitted hitting balls off a mat.
Read into that what you will.


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## Slab (Aug 5, 2016)

Iâ€™ve never had a fitting but Iâ€™m sure like most Iâ€™d enjoy the experience, after all its hitting golf balls with shiny sticks

I suppose it is science in action but probably way too much for a club golfer. After general length, lie and flex are established the rest of the tweaking would appear to be OTT for what club golfers are capable of maximising. And unless youâ€™re at the extremities of tall/short then you can pretty much forget length

Once you emerge onto a course and there's a gentle breeze, change in temp, little rain, variable ground conditions, lie of the ball etc etc etc, anything different to the fitting conditions and players resort to their experiences to estimate the effect to their shot and this 'guess' probably negates any benefit found between off the shelf and custom fitted


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## hovis (Aug 5, 2016)

I think the best word for "i went for a fitting"  is "i went for a try of different clubs"

When people talk about shafts effecting spin rate by massive amounts and launch angles i just switch off and leave them to their delusions.


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## JV24601 (Aug 5, 2016)

JohnnyDee said:



			Sidebar - has anyone ever gone for a club fitting only to be told "What you've got in your hands is the very thing for you my boy! Yessiree Bob, don't even think of changing it for one second." Never happened to me or any of my mates who have been fitted.
		
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Yes, a scratch guy at my place. Has a 10 year old driver and goes to about every fitting the club hosts (4 per year) and gets the same answer every time (nothing comes close to your current one for numbers, etc.).


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## spongebob59 (Aug 5, 2016)

The guy Ali Taylor made a good point in one of his vlogs that you should try and hit more than one club from a set, rather than the collection of 7 irons from the demo bag.


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## bobmac (Aug 5, 2016)

Unless you can swing a club roughly the same way every time, custom fit is probably a waste of time.


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## power fade (Aug 5, 2016)

Had a driver fitting last year..final results no better than existing driver ....left shop with a new grip and an electric trolley...haha


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## HankMarvin (Aug 5, 2016)

bobmac said:



			Unless you can swing a club roughly the same way every time, custom fit is probably a waste of time.
		
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Sound advice.

I bet more than half on here think they have the same swing all the time


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## Smiffy (Aug 5, 2016)

HankMarvin said:



			I bet more than half on here think they have the same swing all the time

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To be fair, most of them do.
But they're crap.


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## HankMarvin (Aug 5, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			To be fair, most of them do.
But they're crap.
		
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:whoo:


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## Smiffy (Aug 5, 2016)

HankMarvin said:



			:whoo:
		
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I did include my own in that generalisation, just in case anybody wondered.


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## HankMarvin (Aug 5, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			I did include my own in that generalisation, just in case anybody wondered.
		
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Yeo I am the same, I just try to use which ever one works on the day


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## Hickory_Hacker (Aug 5, 2016)

bobmac said:



			Unless you can swing a club roughly the same way every time, custom fit is probably a waste of time.
		
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Exactly that.

It makes me laugh when I see posts on here talking about fittings, whilst there's some hope then fair enough but for the vast majority you're only getting the best out of things from the day. Great reading though but surely all that golf talk is a wind up?


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 5, 2016)

Been fitted twice - once for my irons and once for my driver 

My golf improved after both fittings - whether that's because of the new equipment being better fitted to me I can't say but would never dimiss someone going to a pro and seeing what happens


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## Region3 (Aug 5, 2016)

While most people strike the ball very inconsistently from day to day, I bet most of the characteristics that you're fitted for like swing speed and how you load the shaft at transition etc are pretty much the same every time.


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## NWJocko (Aug 5, 2016)

Hickory_Hacker said:



			but for the vast majority you're only getting the best out of things from the day.
		
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Absolutely this, at our level if you're going into a fitting expecting miracles it's not going to happen.

I tend to look at them not from how good are my good shots but how bad are my bad ones!  I tried loads of drivers earlier in the year and, on good strikes, they are all pretty much the same.  I hit all over the clubface though so more about how those ones are than anything else.

Not an exact science for us lot, more about getting something usable and that you like the look/feel of IMO.


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## Smiffy (Aug 5, 2016)

I got fitted once, by Mizuno.
Played crap with 'em and sold 'em 3 months later.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 5, 2016)

bobmac said:



			Unless you can swing a club roughly the same way every time, custom fit is probably a waste of time.
		
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Can I ask why you say that Bob, surely if someone is going to spend Â£300.00-Â£1000.00 on something new they would be better off buying a product they have confidence in or feel they have spent their money wisely, taking advice from a suitably qualified PGA Pro
Would your comment apply to a particular handicap etc


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## lex! (Aug 5, 2016)

JohnnyDee said:



			Sidebar - has anyone ever gone for a club fitting only to be told "What you've got in your hands is the very thing for you my boy! Yessiree Bob, don't even think of changing it for one second." Never happened to me or any of my mates who have been fitted. :mmm:
		
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Yes, I went for a driver fitting recently with one of the top boys. He said to me "what you've got here is absolutely fine, you hit the driver as well as most guys at your age and level. Listen to your coach and do what he tells you, I know him and he knows what he is talking about. If you want to get your handicap down then work on your short game and getting deadly from 120 yards in".


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## bobmac (Aug 5, 2016)

pauldj42 said:



			Can I ask why you say that Bob, surely if someone is going to spend Â£300.00-Â£1000.00 on something new they would be better off buying a product they have confidence in or feel they have spent their money wisely, taking advice from a suitably qualified PGA Pro
Would your comment apply to a particular handicap etc
		
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What I mean is if someone hits 6 balls in a fitting and they are all different, how can I fit that person?
If your swing is similar each time, even if its rubbish like car salesmen, then I can offer some advice.
To the person who swings it all over the place, my advice would be save your money and come back when you've had a few lessons


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## ger147 (Aug 5, 2016)

bobmac said:



			What I mean is if someone hits 6 balls in a fitting and they are all different, how can I fit that person?
If your swing is similar each time, even if its rubbish like car salesmen, then I can offer some advice.
To the person who swings it all over the place, my advice would be save your money and come back when you've had a few lessons
		
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That's what happened to me when I went for a driver fitting i.e. the fitting pro told me I needed lessons not a new driver and gave me contact details for a good pro nearer my home to go and see.

He also refused to take any money for the fitting I had booked.


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## User 105 (Aug 5, 2016)

bobmac said:



			Unless you can swing a club roughly the same way every time, custom fit is probably a waste of time.
		
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Bang on.

I've had quite a few fittings and I tend to use them as a guide rather than a rule. i get to try a range of clubs, see some indicative numbers and see which ones I like the feel of.

I've had a couple of fittings that I've stopped half way through because I was just not swinging how I normally do, so the results are going to be pointless.

I also go into a fitting with a good idea of what I'd need to see numbers wise for me to consider changing from what I currently use.

I think as amateurs getting fitted is fine if it's free anyway, but go in with an open mind and don't just accept what the fitter says. Balance that against how you were swinging on the day and the results from you're current club(s).


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## Smiffy (Aug 5, 2016)

bobmac said:



			If your swing is similar each time, even if its rubbish like car salesmen
		
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Rhymes with rowlocks


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## nickjdavis (Aug 5, 2016)

Bloke at my club went along with a few other lads for a Titleist fitting day.

Fitter told him to go away and work on his swing and reckoned he had the potential to get down into single figures.

The golfer in question played off 5 at the time.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 5, 2016)

Region3 said:



			While most people strike the ball very inconsistently from day to day, I bet most of the characteristics that you're fitted for like swing speed and how you load the shaft at transition etc are pretty much the same every time.
		
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At last someone has come up with the right answer. For most people it will be crap but at least it is consistent crap and finding the correct flex, lie etc WILL help. How much depends on the quality of the swing.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 5, 2016)

bobmac said:



			What I mean is if someone hits 6 balls in a fitting and they are all different, how can I fit that person?
If your swing is similar each time, even if its rubbish like car salesmen, then I can offer some advice.
To the person who swings it all over the place, my advice would be save your money and come back when you've had a few lessons
		
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Thanks for that, I see the custom fitting as almost the last cog in the wheel and done in conjunction with the Pro you trust, as you rightly say, so much more other elements to be worked on prior to considering the custom fit.


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## Region3 (Aug 5, 2016)

I've had quite a few fittings in my short-ish time back playing but I only have 3 clubs in the bag now that I was fitted for - and they were only for bounce & loft.
I think I have a good idea now of what I like and what suits me and what doesn't.

Driver - bought on the strength of a demo with the wrong shaft borrowed for 1 round.
3 wood - bought after trying 3 or 4 different clubs in AG
Hybrid - never hit first. Bought because I liked the 3 wood so much.
Irons - was left alone with the hex tool, 4 heads and a shedload of shafts. Chose the one that felt nicest hitting rubbish range balls.
Wedges - fitted at Titleist but only for bounce and to get nice gaps. I chose the shaft I 'fitted' myself for with the irons.
Putter - Â£30 brand new in AG because I liked the way the ball felt off the face.


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## woody69 (Aug 5, 2016)

People just need to realise it isn't a silver bullet, but at the same time I think they can offer a lot of benefit and make you select a club that is more forgiving for a swing you are capable of producing.

Besides, I enjoy them. Seeing the numbers and understanding why the ball is behaving like it is on the day. It's helpful if a custom fit is tied into a lesson of sorts. 

I don't agree with AG style Custom Fits though. They are all about the sale, and there is no custom when you're getting off the rack clubs and just picking the one that happens to perform best on the day.


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## need_my_wedge (Aug 5, 2016)

My son is going for a custom fit next week. The idea being that he got his current clubs 4 years ago. He's grown about 2 foot or more since then, now 6'5" tall. He wants to buy new clubs, wants to try a number of different options whilst ensuring he gets clubs that fit his frame and swing. He has a pretty good swing, which seems mostly consistent, surely a custom fit is beneficial in this instance?


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## User 105 (Aug 5, 2016)

need_my_wedge said:



			He's grown about 2 foot or more since then, now 6'5" tall.
		
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Christ his posture must look like Michelle Wei when she's putting :lol:


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## Alex1975 (Aug 5, 2016)

Club Fittings - science in action or snake oil for sale? .... *it really depends who fits you!!!!!*


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## Hickory_Hacker (Aug 5, 2016)

I hope this doesn't spoil any future posts from 15 handicapper's giving advice or suggesting a fitting ... No need to spoil the fun &#128514;&#128514;&#128514;


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## Hobbit (Aug 5, 2016)

I think it depends on the fitter, and then the golfer being honest with himself. The first fitter I went to was excellent, and the facilities too. It also helps if the golfer knows their swing well enough, and has the courage to say stop if they're just not swinging it well on the day.

Equally, I've had a couple of fitting sessions with TM, both of which were dire. As a result I wouldn't trust them to tie their own shoe laces let alone fit me for clubs. 

I usually have a session or two on Trackman/Flightscope each year, and I'm looking for a particular set of numbers. At the start of a fitting session, when I'm hitting my own clubs, I'd expect to see something very similar. If I don't see those numbers, but the feel is good and the flight too I wouldn't have confidence in the session.


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## Face breaker (Aug 5, 2016)

All I did with my clubs was to check em on the lie board, I lopped an inch off (they were a half inch over standard) got the lies checked and adjusted to standard then ran em over the lie board again, perfect, been hitting em straight ever since, sometimes to bloody straight...


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## Danielms (Aug 5, 2016)

Have been fitted on more than one occasion.

in terms of iron fittings every time bar 1 I ve been fitted to the same for irons.  1 inch longer and 2 to 3 degrees upright.  I ve also have shocking days where I ve called an end to the session as my swing has gone all over the place.    The worst was being fitted to 1/2 inch short and 3 flat which we funnily enough have in stock.
I know what my specs are now with irons that it's not as hard if I decide to change them.

in terms of wedge fittings did the Cleveland one form bounce and gapping more than anything else and was discouraged from 3 wedges after my pitching wedge to 2.  Interesting part of fitting was the fitter recommending Ping Dyla wedge grips for me as he felt they would benefit me with gripping down the club.

driver fittings I ve always been after dispersion over anything else, I am above average with distance so better dispersion is always my aim, some fittings have been really good in this regard some really poor.  

Woods and hybrid are so personal I find once you have something that fits it becomes very hard to change.  Hence why my 3 wood is 10 years old, 5 wood 12 years old and hybrid 10 years old.  Even the newer models when I've hit them on launch monitors can't improve dramatically on what I have.  My local pro will tell me if something is better and having know him 20 years I put faith in his isn't trying to just sell me something.  

Putters. I am self fitted for and my main putter was perfect for me except the wrong grip and my spare doesn't fit me at all but was my wedding present from my wife so still gets some use.

Fitting is personal to the individual, a good fitting can benefit in terms of :-

loft,
lie,
length,
shaft weight,
shaft flex
clubs balance point and overall weight.

A poor fitting can hinder the same person as well.

I once went to see Jason Macniven who praised the driver I had with looking at the figures and saying I won't beat that so let's not bother looking.


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## Foxholer (Aug 5, 2016)

I've been fitted several times, by pretty reputable folk.

Results have always been positive, but I've always realised that it's not a magic formula for instant improvement. The recommendations for 'best results for my swing and speed' has been very consistent. None have factored in (nor were they able to) the 'feel' that I prefer and how 'feel' affects my swing! All have been happy to admit that's something that's personal and un-measurable (except by me). Recognising this, my first fitters, who warranted their results, were happy to replace their, otherwise perfectly appropriate, recommendation with one more suitable, for that attribute!

Knowing what I like/need, I 'self-fit these days!  

One thing that was a magic instant improvement though was the assessment and adjustment of loft/lie (my 'matched' set were way out'!), so I strongly recommend getting that done!


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## Backsticks (Aug 7, 2016)

I think its more pseudoscience than science. Or 100% quakery.

The whole process of custom fitting is based on two false premises: one, that a set of club specs that best suit your swing can be determined by measurement, and two, that such a spec exists that will make you play your optimum golf. Its a sham. And the claims are outrageous and must border or actually breach trade descriptions law.

The custom fit fad is driven by :

- golfers leave no stone unturned seeking the promised land of better golf: and sense or rational analysis of facts is frequently left behind in this search
- there is a huge industry and business selling golf equipment to the (by and large rich in disposable cash) golfers of the world and it has become very adept at devising ways to part them with more of their cash
- few golfers, and indeed, few professional golfers have any knowledge of golf club/ball flight mechanics (its pretty easy to sell them any dream you can concoct)
- club pros latched (cleverly) onto the custom fit business as a way to win back business and offer a more tailored and personal-expertise experience from the takeover in gear selling by the megastore chains
- elite world players into it. And it may even make a difference to them. But then they are paid to say that so no impartiality there.

There are no true scientific analyses showing club fitting has a clear effect on the improvement of anyone's golf.


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## virtuocity (Aug 7, 2016)

woody69 said:



			I don't agree with AG style Custom Fits though. They are all about the sale, and there is no custom when you're getting off the rack clubs and just picking the one that happens to perform best on the day.
		
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I'd reserve judgement on that one.

The AG in East Kilbride (one of their flagship stores) has just had its fitting room done up.  A very large wall filled with all sorts of different shafts and the adjoining wall chocka with iron and driver heads.  They offer a free fitting, using launch monitors, on to a very long range that allows you to judge ball flights very well.

The staff are generally friendly and I wouldn't hesitate to book a fitting there.  Can't speak for other branches, but it's not fair to tar every store with the same brush.


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## Backsticks (Aug 7, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			Club Fittings - science in action or snake oil for sale? .... *it really depends who fits you!!!!!*

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Does it though? Is there any evidence for 'club fitting', no matter who does it, that is is possible to improve someone's game, or have clubs that 'fit' a particular swing. Loads of fancy measurement equipment, computing power, and decimal places, or a knowledgeable pro or swing specialist, does not necessarily that it will a blind bit of difference to how well you will play the game.


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## Alex1975 (Aug 7, 2016)

Backsticks said:



			Does it though? Is there any evidence for 'club fitting', no matter who does it, that is is possible to improve someone's game, or have clubs that 'fit' a particular swing. Loads of fancy measurement equipment, computing power, and decimal places, or a knowledgeable pro or swing specialist, does not necessarily that it will a blind bit of difference to how well you will play the game.
		
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Ever been properly fitted?


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## woody69 (Aug 7, 2016)

virtuocity said:



			I'd reserve judgement on that one.

The AG in East Kilbride (one of their flagship stores) has just had its fitting room done up.  A very large wall filled with all sorts of different shafts and the adjoining wall chocka with iron and driver heads.  They offer a free fitting, using launch monitors, on to a very long range that allows you to judge ball flights very well.

The staff are generally friendly and I wouldn't hesitate to book a fitting there.  Can't speak for other branches, but it's not fair to tar every store with the same brush.
		
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I wasn't referring to that, if they have such a facility. It was more the hit into the nets with half a dozen clubs off the rack and they call it a custom fit. Unless a fitter has the ability to swap out shafts, heads and everything in between, picking 6 drivers and seeing which gives the best numbers on the day is not a custom fit. That is what I meant when I said "AG style"


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## ger147 (Aug 7, 2016)

virtuocity said:



			I'd reserve judgement on that one.

The AG in East Kilbride (one of their flagship stores) has just had its fitting room done up.  A very large wall filled with all sorts of different shafts and the adjoining wall chocka with iron and driver heads.  They offer a free fitting, using launch monitors, on to a very long range that allows you to judge ball flights very well.

The staff are generally friendly and I wouldn't hesitate to book a fitting there.  Can't speak for other branches, but it's not fair to tar every store with the same brush.
		
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Stirling AG is the same i.e. GC2 launch monitor, fitting carts and a long outdoor range, so "AG style" fittings are actually pretty good round my way.


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## 3565 (Aug 7, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			Ever been properly fitted?
		
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Or has he ever driven a car that the seat isn't the right height or distance for his stature for 4hrs? After all it's just a seat we sit on?


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## guest100718 (Aug 8, 2016)

3565 said:



			Or has he ever driven a car that the seat isn't the right height or distance for his stature for 4hrs? After all it's just a seat we sit on? 

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What a daft analogy.  Do.you actually get custom fitted for your car seat then?


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## Imurg (Aug 8, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			What a daft analogy.  Do.you actually get custom fitted for your car seat then?
		
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In a way, yes.
You do adjust it to get in the correct position don't you..?


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## guest100718 (Aug 8, 2016)

Imurg said:



			In a way, yes.
You do adjust it to get in the correct position don't you..?
		
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no, there are several inches difference in height between me and mrs PK but we dont have differnt settings for the seat.


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## Imurg (Aug 8, 2016)

So why is the seat so adjustable..?
Height, rake distance from pedals, steering column comes forward/back/up/down..
Isn't this to enable "custom fitting"


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## guest100718 (Aug 8, 2016)

Imurg said:



			So why is the seat so adjustable..?
Height, rake distance from pedals, steering column comes forward/back/up/down..
Isn't this to enable "custom fitting"
		
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lol, perhaps you can start to offer a custom seat fitting experience.


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## Crow (Aug 8, 2016)

My take, I think most people can hit most clubs to the extent of their ability. Unless you're particularly tall or short then shaft length isn't going to make a lot of difference, shaft flex can make improvements but not earth shattering ones.

I'm lucky in that I pretty average in terms of height and swing speed so feel I can hit any off the shelf club as well as my limited ability will allow.

My bag would back this up:

Driver, bought for no other reason than I love the sound a Titleist driver makes. (Stiff shaft)
3 wood, bought from ebay at a time when I had no idea about shafts. (Graffaloy Blue Stiff)
5 wood, bought from a mate, never hit a Cobra club before, in fact never hit a 5 wood before. (Stiff shaft)
9 wood, Sports Direct, felt I needed a more lofted fairway wood. (Assumed regular shaft but no marking)
Hybrid, ebay, chosen because I'd hit my brothers a couple of times on the range and liked it. (Stiff shaft)
Irons, the only clubs I've been fitted for, I had a wad of cash in the Pro-Shop from the last season when I could play. I shouldn't have gone for a fitting really as I was well into some serious shanks by then, I was just looking at large headed clubs as I had no confidence in the clubs I had my eye on, the Mizuno MP4. The fitting was an embarrassment as I tried to find a swing that hit the ball out the face. (Regular shaft)
Gap wedge, ebay. (Regular shaft)
Sand wedge, picked up from a big selection of old clubs to fill an old set I bought from ebay that was missing a sand wedge. (Regular shaft)
Putter, ebay after trying a load of putters in Sports Direct on their indoor 12 foot putting mat.

And of course the Old School set weren't fitted, my friend ebay again.


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## 3565 (Aug 8, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			no, there are several inches difference in height between me and mrs PK but we dont have differnt settings for the seat.
		
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Mmmm I'm a lot taller then my Mrs and she has the seat further forward then I do. Would I drive the car in her position? Er........no! Did I get 'custom fitted seats' when we got the car? Now who's being daft! I move the seat into a position where it's comfortable for me to drive. Just like you get golf clubs that are the right length and lie for you.


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## guest100718 (Aug 8, 2016)

3565 said:



			Mmmm I'm a lot taller then my Mrs and she has the seat further forward then I do. Would I drive the car in her position? Er........no! Did I get 'custom fitted seats' when we got the car? Now who's being daft! I move the seat into a position where it's comfortable for me to drive. Just like you get golf clubs that are the right length and lie for you.
		
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You are by comparing a car seat to a golf club.


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## Imurg (Aug 8, 2016)

The analogy is that you can buy either off the shelf and use them but if you adjust them to suit you you'll probably be able to use them better.

At the end of the day, if you've hit a club as a trial then you've gone through some degree of custom fit. The only non fitting scenario I if you walk into AG, look at a set, scoop them up and go to the till.
Did you hit your irons at all before purchase?


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## guest100718 (Aug 8, 2016)

Imurg said:



			The analogy is that you can buy either off the shelf and use them but if you adjust them to suit you you'll probably be able to use them better.

At the end of the day, if you've hit a club as a trial then you've gone through some degree of custom fit. The only non fitting scenario I if you walk into AG, look at a set, scoop them up and go to the till.
Did you hit your irons at all before purchase?
		
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Yep and they're custom fitted too.


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## Alex1975 (Aug 8, 2016)

3565 said:



			Or has he ever driven a car that the seat isn't the right height or distance for his stature for 4hrs? After all it's just a seat we sit on? 

Click to expand...

:clap:


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## 3565 (Aug 8, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			You are by comparing a car seat to a golf club.
		
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Obviously you don't understand sarcasm with my original post. Imurg understood and so did Alex1975. 
ill leave you to your little world.


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## Alex1975 (Aug 8, 2016)

Its strange that this post even exists really? I have had good results from things as little as and extra wrap of tape or two let alone the correct length of shaft or swing weight..... Can it even be argued that the correctly ergonomic tool would be better than the other?


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## guest100718 (Aug 8, 2016)

3565 said:



			Obviously you don't understand sarcasm with my original post. Imurg understood and so did Alex1975. 
ill leave you to your little world.
		
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I guess you had to be there.


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## 3565 (Aug 8, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			Its strange that this post even exists really? I have had good results from things as little as and extra wrap of tape or two let alone the correct length of shaft or swing weight..... Can it even be argued that the correctly ergonomic tool would be better than the other?
		
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exactly. I had some new internal doors fitted at the weekend, maybe I should of told the fitters not to cut them down to size and just fit them as are from off the shelf........as I don't want the doors to swing freely and shut and make it hard for me to close them?


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## GB72 (Aug 8, 2016)

I think that custom fitting ticks several boxes:

1. Having clubs fitted can help the average golfer if the fitting is done well and they understand what they are looking for. Fitted clubs also give increased confidence as they are 'the right clubs for me'.
2. On the other hand, the promotion of custom fitting also encourages people with a perfectly serviceable set of clubs to go out and buy new ones fitted ones will 'obviously' improve their game. 
3. Custom fitting could help the manufacturers reduce the size of the second hand market as clubs that have been fitted can be harder to sell or people who are sold on the idea of fitting look to buy new, bespoke clubs rather than second hand, off the peg ones. 
4. It has created a whole new market for upgraded shafts that most club golfers never considered before adding an extra revenue stream. 

Personally I have had good and bad fittings. One of the best was when I was a very high handicapper and the fitter just suggesting cutting down my driver shaft to make it easier to hit. That said, my bag is now full of off the peg Adams clubs and I have not seen any noticeable downturn.


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## Foxholer (Aug 8, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			Its strange that this post even exists really? I have had good results from things as little as and extra wrap of tape or two let alone the correct length of shaft or swing weight..... Can it even be argued that the correctly ergonomic tool would be better than the other?
		
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But you can still hammer a nail in with a 'badly fitted' or lower quality hammer! So it really comes down to an individual's perception of what's important to them and at what cost or perceived value for money!

And I could never even get into the car with the settings my wife had them at! Thank heaven for 'memory' seats!


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 8, 2016)

IMO there is no definite answer 

Custom fitting will suit some and others will be just as good with a set straight of the shelf 

Plenty will have custom fit all the top gear and it won't improve them one single bit - it could even make them worse


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## Alucard (Aug 8, 2016)

My take on this is that a better player will gain more from a fitting for the first time than a new starter. 
Better that the new starter learns how to swing the clubs on a consistent plane that moves the ball down the fairway and keeps it in the fairway.

Provided the clubs he or she are using from the tee or Fairway do not have the Toe or Heel stuck right up in the air at address then the fitting is close enough to begin with and the shafts would most likely begin at regular.

Waiting until the swing you have can be reproduced in a reasonably consistent manner before having a fitting makes more sense and the modern game improvement irons mask too many flaws in a beginners golf swing making it difficult to really improve. 
Unfortunately we live in a world where nearly everyone wants everything right now without putting the work in and they think that money can buy improvement but fortunately golf is not that easy and it is character building.

I would recommend a half set of old blades that sit right at address with regular steel shafts in them and some lessons with a teaching Pro and practice every spare time you have and  then if you decide to splash out the big cash and go down the fitting route you will get the correct clubs for you more accurately.

What is the point being fit when every other swing you make is different?  I am sure a fitting is worthwhile and even more so for the scoring clubs like the wedges and the putter but in my opinion you must be able to repeat your swing much of the time to make it worthwhile.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 8, 2016)

My take is simple. We all play this game for fun and so if somebody has sufficient funds to invest on a custom fit set and assuming they have a modicum of control over the ball (not an absolute beginner) then if they are getting some satisfaction from the fitting process, trying different makes and models and getting a proper fitting, then why not? I think most are sensible enough to realise they don't represent some form of magical answer, and to be honest I know a lot of players who aren't hung up on their handicap and so wll just be happy to have a set of clubs fitted for their own needs.


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## Khamelion (Aug 8, 2016)

I went for a fitting when I bought my current set of irons, I was club agnostic when I went not bothered which manufacturer I purchased, tried TM, Ping, Titleist, Callaway and Mizuno in all their various flavours, it came down to Mizuno or TM, both were giving the same figures, opted for Mizuno as there was no up charge on the shafts, tried several different shafts, stiffness's and weights till I got the right setup.

At the fitting I was trying to hit perfect shots, but the fitter told me just to swing and let the ball go, so instead of trying to hit straight shots and spraying them here there and everywhere, I just pulled each shot straight left shot after shot. 

So my iron fitting was well worth it.

Sometimes fitting is best, had I bought my Mizuno JPX 850 Driver and Fairway off the shelf I would've ended up with the stock shaft, which as it happens was what the fitter told me best suited my swing style and speed. How wrong he was, for both clubs the shaft was upgraded to a stiffer tipped shaft, which the fitter told me would not work, the look on his face when I pummeled ball after ball straight down range was priceless, his numbers told him one thing, but I told him otherwise and then showed him to boot.

Fitting for me in both instances was well worth it.


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## Jensen (Aug 8, 2016)

Danielms said:



			Have been fitted on more than one occasion.

in terms of iron fittings every time bar 1 I ve been fitted to the same for irons.  1 inch longer and 2 to 3 degrees upright.  I ve also have shocking days where I ve called an end to the session as my swing has gone all over the place.    The worst was being fitted to 1/2 inch short and 3 flat which we funnily enough have in stock.
I know what my specs are now with irons that it's not as hard if I decide to change them.
.
		
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I'm not so sure it's as simple as that. I've been told that Mizuno irons are 2 degrees flatter, so I would have thought they would differ between manufacturers.
However I'm prepared to be corrected


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## ChrisB0210 (Aug 8, 2016)

I was fitted for some new irons last week, they're ordered and will be collected when I return from holiday later in the month.

The most surprising and interesting part of the fitting was that I was fitted into clubs that are 2 deg flat and slightly longer in the shaft than my current set. Previously my clubs have been set upright and std length shafts. Having asked me what my bad iron shot is (left pull, close to being a h**k) the pro explained that my current club set up is probably exacerbating that tendency and what he has fitted me into should help eliminate that and help keep my shots straight.

Obviously only time will tell, but hopefully he's right and more shots will fly straight rather than wanting to turn left.

If he is right, then fitting will have worked for me.


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## Snelly (Aug 8, 2016)

I had a fitting with Ping for my irons and it was excellent, resulting in the best irons I have ever had going in to my bag.  I think it can be helpful, fun to do and remove doubt about the suitability of your equipment.


That said, I do think an unbelievable amount of utter, utter tripe is spouted in the golfing media and on this forum about custom fitted clubs.   Most of you on this forum have been fitted, very few come along six months later and explain how there handicap has come down by 25% as a result.  Just the usual hot air about marginal gains and so on.  

What so many who are relatively new to golf seem to completely forget is that before custom fitting existed, there were plenty of golfers using whatever they found in their pro shop to play golf to a better standard than anyone on the forum.  


The reason custom fitting exists is as an aid to persuade golfers to part with more money, more often.  The benefits do not measure up really but as I said, it is interesting and quite good fun.  That doesn't make it snake oil, but nor is it a panacea for anyone's golfing woes.


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## Spear-Chucker (Aug 9, 2016)

Agree wholeheartedly with post #80.

It's not snake oil at all although the benefits vary depending on the individual.

Anyone _should_ benefit from the right length clubs, right shaft flex for their abilities, lie angle, grip thickness, ball type and so on but it's only a small percentage of the process. There is *NO *substitute however for learning how to hit different shot types with the kit you have and then learning to apply that to the course to make a score. Small technological improvements from manufacturers are there to be enjoyed though and why not? 

I wouldn't dream of joining a running club wearing wellies but neither would the worlds best running shoes make me a decent runner. Dedication, coaching, good diet and a bit of luck might improve my chances of giving Bolt a run for his money though


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## Backsticks (Aug 9, 2016)

Spear-Chucker said:



			It's not snake oil at all although the benefits vary depending on the individual.

Anyone _should_ benefit from the right length clubs, right shaft flex for their abilities, lie angle, grip thickness, ball type and so on but it's only a small percentage of the process.
		
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Why should they? (And forget false analogies like adjustable car seats, or shoes sized so that you can walk correctly - this is the same mirage technique used to dupe the gullible).

I would guess it isnt even a small percentage. Beyond the extremes, when yes, long or shorter clubs, for someone of 5' or 6'8", there is simply no evidence that this fine tuning makes any practical difference to anyone's game. Of any level.
The whole golf swing and equipment world is astonishingly unscientific. Most pros are golfers who happen to be good at the game - but they have no true understanding why they are good at it, let alone how to make someone else repeat it. The amount of complete garbage and clearly scientific nonsense from many even renowned pros ("the hands, shoulders, and torso multiply this stored energy", etc) is everywhere.
Most pros fitting clubs, as well as little understanding of the golf swing, have even less understanding of the physics of a club hitting a ball. It is all based on a pseudo-science and a hand-waving belief that : there is a perfect club spec for you, the fitter knows what this is, has the technology to evaluate what you are doing, and ability to tailor a club so that you will be as close to these ideal figures as possible. Throwing impressive and expensive technology and computer power and fancy graphics at it is part of the illusion. But is really just disguising that it is garbage in garbage out - and that not only are they peddling nonsense - what worses, they are duped enough themselves to believe what they are saying.


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## Region3 (Aug 9, 2016)

Backsticks said:



			Why should they? (And forget false analogies like adjustable car seats, or shoes sized so that you can walk correctly - this is the same mirage technique used to dupe the gullible).

I would guess it isnt even a small percentage. Beyond the extremes, when yes, long or shorter clubs, for someone of 5' or 6'8", there is simply no evidence that this fine tuning makes any practical difference to anyone's game. Of any level.
The whole golf swing and equipment world is astonishingly unscientific. Most pros are golfers who happen to be good at the game - but they have no true understanding why they are good at it, let alone how to make someone else repeat it. The amount of complete garbage and clearly scientific nonsense from many even renowned pros ("the hands, shoulders, and torso multiply this stored energy", etc) is everywhere.
Most pros fitting clubs, as well as little understanding of the golf swing, have even less understanding of the physics of a club hitting a ball. It is all based on a pseudo-science and a hand-waving belief that : there is a perfect club spec for you, the fitter knows what this is, has the technology to evaluate what you are doing, and ability to tailor a club so that you will be as close to these ideal figures as possible. Throwing impressive and expensive technology and computer power and fancy graphics at it is part of the illusion. But is really just disguising that it is garbage in garbage out - and that not only are they peddling nonsense - what worses, they are duped enough themselves to believe what they are saying.
		
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Do you think it is important that first contact with the ground is with the middle of the sole, or would it make no difference if it were the heel or toe?


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## Backsticks (Aug 9, 2016)

Region3 said:



			Do you think it is important that first contact with the ground is with the middle of the sole, or would it make no difference if it were the heel or toe?
		
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If you are doing it right, it doesnt matter - the ball is already gone.


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## 3565 (Aug 9, 2016)

Backsticks said:



			Why should they? (And forget false analogies like adjustable car seats, or shoes sized so that you can walk correctly - this is the same mirage technique used to dupe the gullible).

I would guess it isnt even a small percentage. Beyond the extremes, when yes, long or shorter clubs, for someone of 5' or 6'8", there is simply no evidence that this fine tuning makes any practical difference to anyone's game. Of any level.
The whole golf swing and equipment world is astonishingly unscientific. Most pros are golfers who happen to be good at the game - but they have no true understanding why they are good at it, let alone how to make someone else repeat it. The amount of complete garbage and clearly scientific nonsense from many even renowned pros ("the hands, shoulders, and torso multiply this stored energy", etc) is everywhere.
Most pros fitting clubs, as well as little understanding of the golf swing, have even less understanding of the physics of a club hitting a ball. It is all based on a pseudo-science and a hand-waving belief that : there is a perfect club spec for you, the fitter knows what this is, has the technology to evaluate what you are doing, and ability to tailor a club so that you will be as close to these ideal figures as possible. Throwing impressive and expensive technology and computer power and fancy graphics at it is part of the illusion. But is really just disguising that it is garbage in garbage out - and that not only are they peddling nonsense - what worses, they are duped enough themselves to believe what they are saying.
		
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Consider me duped then, along with Tim Wishon, Homer Kelley, Tutleman, Gene Sarazen,  Nicklaus, all those who studied the golf swing, R&D of many companies and individuals who spent money and lifetime in equipment to make the game a more enjoyable experience......... Let's play golf then of yesteryear and play it backsticks style.


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## Backsticks (Aug 9, 2016)

Is there any evidence that they achieved anything other than make themselves money ?


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## 3565 (Aug 9, 2016)

I've seen the evidence for myself that getting fitted can make a huge difference in my game and like others on a different thread are now seeing benefits. It's obvious you think it's a load of nonsense yet you 'maybe' playing with the very equipment that you say these people are duping us with?


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## Spear-Chucker (Aug 9, 2016)

Backsticks said:



			Why should they? (And forget false analogies like adjustable car seats, or shoes sized so that you can walk correctly - this is the same mirage technique used to dupe the gullible).

I would guess it isnt even a small percentage. Beyond the extremes, when yes, long or shorter clubs, for someone of 5' or 6'8", there is simply no evidence that this fine tuning makes any practical difference to anyone's game. Of any level.
The whole golf swing and equipment world is astonishingly unscientific. Most pros are golfers who happen to be good at the game - but they have no true understanding why they are good at it, let alone how to make someone else repeat it. The amount of complete garbage and clearly scientific nonsense from many even renowned pros ("the hands, shoulders, and torso multiply this stored energy", etc) is everywhere.
Most pros fitting clubs, as well as little understanding of the golf swing, have even less understanding of the physics of a club hitting a ball. It is all based on a pseudo-science and a hand-waving belief that : there is a perfect club spec for you, the fitter knows what this is, has the technology to evaluate what you are doing, and ability to tailor a club so that you will be as close to these ideal figures as possible. Throwing impressive and expensive technology and computer power and fancy graphics at it is part of the illusion. But is really just disguising that it is garbage in garbage out - and that not only are they peddling nonsense - what worses, they are duped enough themselves to believe what they are saying.
		
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Not sure that you've had the opportunity to explore this properly as spending some time with a clued up fitter would be quite enlightening. Have you tried it?

The many factors influencing the golf shot are technical, psychological and environmental - by understanding each element you will be able to exact a little more improvement which makes the game a lot more enjoyable. Technical elements are not the whole picture for sure but do play an important role. That is what drives the industry and by ignoring that someone is simply refusing to see what's plainly in front of them. Fear not, Copernicus had similar issues.


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## Region3 (Aug 9, 2016)

Backsticks said:



			If you are doing it right, it doesnt matter - the ball is already gone.
		
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Who does it right the majority of the time? I don't, do you?

Much simpler just to get the correct lie angle for your swing for the times it isn't perfect.


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## tsped83 (Aug 10, 2016)

Having had numerous fittings for driver and irons and obsessed about lie angles, launch angles and all the other guff, I am now custom fit free!

Non custom fit clubs in the bag for me, my handicap has fallen from 17 to 12.6 (haha! Lower than Homer now!) in the last few months. Get used to a set, stick with them, see results. Bada Bing!


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## guest100718 (Aug 10, 2016)

tsped83 said:



			Having had numerous fittings for driver and irons and obsessed about lie angles, launch angles and all the other guff, I am now custom fit free!

Non custom fit clubs in the bag for me, my handicap has fallen from 17 to 12.6 (haha! Lower than Homer now!) in the last few months. Get used to a set, stick with them, see results. Bada Bing!
		
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thats forum blasphemy....


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## delc (Aug 10, 2016)

Region3 said:



			Do you think it is important that first contact with the ground is with the middle of the sole, or would it make no difference if it were the heel or toe?
		
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I had a problem with hooking and shanking my iron shots for years. Then a custom fitting showed that I needed the lie angle set a couple of degrees flatter than standard and that made a huge difference to my game. &#128526;


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## Wildrover (Aug 10, 2016)

Can't believe that people still part with their hard earned for off the shelf clubs. Even if you are swinging like an octopus trapped in a phone box on the day, there is benefit from getting the correct length and lie angle. Also a good shot is a good shot, part of custom fitting is about making your not so good ones better as nobody middles it every time, but if you can reduce your slice/hook/skies/tops etc on the bad ones then that can only benefit your game.


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## guest100718 (Aug 10, 2016)

yes but custom fitting will do little to reduce those  specific bad shots yoiu mention


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## Wildrover (Aug 10, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			yes but custom fitting will do little to reduce those  specific bad shots yoiu mention
		
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I beg to differ.

Slice - Not enough loft/shaft to heavy or stiff/iron lie too flat.
Hook - Too much loft/shaft to soft or light/iron lie too upright.
Skies - Club too long.
Tops - Club too short.

Not always the causes but a good place to start. The idea of CF is that you are fitted for your normal swing, therefore the equipment should be set up to counteract any faults as much as possible, you don't need a perfect swing for this, just your normal one.


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## guest100718 (Aug 10, 2016)

Wildrover said:



			I beg to differ.

Slice - Not enough loft/shaft to heavy or stiff/iron lie too flat.
Hook - Too much loft/shaft to soft or light/iron lie too upright.
Skies - Club too long.
Tops - Club too short.

Not always the causes but a good place to start. The idea of CF is that you are fitted for your normal swing, therefore the equipment should be set up to counteract any faults as much as possible, you don't need a perfect swing for this, just your normal one.
		
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for hooks and slices google ball flight laws
tops are mainly a rooky error, but we all hit the odd skinny one and it has nothing to do with shaft length
A sky is just one of things that happen to us all

Lie angle can affect toe up/down and impact meaning the face will be closed or more open, but most of bad shots you see will not benfit from a club fitting.

If i had to choose betrween being given a 2nd hand set from a forummer but I could practice as much as I liked vs 10 grand to spend on an uber fititng but limtied to 1 practice session a week, i know what i'd choose


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## Alucard (Aug 10, 2016)

When you first begin to learn to play golf, provided the clubs you are using sit flat at address no toe in the air nor heel in the air, with a good teaching pro showing you how to Grip the clubs and address the ball then thats good enough. I prefer half a set of old blades for this learning stage as they give you instant feedback on what went wrong.

Once you develop a reasonably consistent swing via lessons and Practice  then I feel sure that a personal fitting will help most people, it can not do any harm anyway and may give confidence to those that lack it. 

Game improvement clubs at that point will instantly help the golfer to find a larger sweet spot more consistently and then you enjoy the game so much more.


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## bobmac (Aug 10, 2016)

Alucard said:



			When you first begin to learn to play golf, *provided the clubs you are using sit flat at address *no toe in the air nor heel in the air,
		
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Actually, they should normally sit a little 'toe up' at address to allow for the shaft flexing downwards into impact.


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## Alucard (Aug 10, 2016)

bobmac said:



			Actually, they should normally sit a little 'toe up' at address to allow for the shaft flexing downwards into impact.
		
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Obviously I mean noticeably stuck up in the air due to the shaft being too long and the players hands low. The Old and the New Coloured Dot ping fitting systems are good enough to work with for beginners and your good teaching pro would know in any case as you would get the half set of blades off him.


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## Lazkir (Aug 10, 2016)

Having my clubs fitted meant that I never had to doubt that it was my own fault for bad shots and not the clubs themselves.
It's just one less thing to worry about imo.


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## guest100718 (Aug 10, 2016)

Who else's fault could they have been?


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## Alex1975 (Aug 10, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			Who else's fault could they have been?
		
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If his 6 iron was 3* flat and he requires 3* up......

Though I guess it would still be his fault as he was not wise enough to have checked they were a good fit for him...


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## Lazkir (Aug 10, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			Who else's fault could they have been?
		
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The point I'm making is that as human beings we tend to look for excuses for our failings. By taking away any doubt regarding the clubs, we then have to accept that we are responsible and therefore have to address the problem in a different way.
How often have I read on here about lessons being far more effective than new gear? It's a similar thing to me, remove any doubt about it being the clubs at fault and we are forced to accept that we need to improve our technique rather than the equipment.


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## jamielaing (Aug 10, 2016)

I can't believe this is even a question on here to be honest, never mind the fact that everyone is arguing about it!

Am I going to go from a 12 handicap to scratch in a year due to custom clubs? NO
Is a 200 yard hitter going to get 320+ with custom fit? NO
Is my new putter going to make me nail 50 footers every time? NO

What custom does do however is tell you the things you didn't know. My clubs were off the rack. I'd had them since I was 14 and returned to golf at 28. (This is where everyone will say that these clubs obviously didn't suit me!) I had no idea what I should be using other than I probably needed still shafts. I got told all about lie angles, length of shaft etc etc. I also need x-stiff. If I had gone in and gone off the rack I would have disregarded x-stiff completely. Also I need jumbo grips, would never have considered this and to be honest this has made a massive difference to my game!

A friend of mine went to be fitted and thought he needed regular shafts. He couldn't believe it when stiff was suggested. He's nailing the driver perfectly now.

In the days where we are now paying Â£700 for a set of irons, why not pay the extra Â£50 to get these things checked? Or god forbid, go to AG where they will at least give you the correct measurements for a static fitting for free.

If you don't have custom clubs and are hitting the ball well and have no inclination to get new clubs, don't. They will not make you Dustin Johnson. If however you are wanting new clubs for whatever reason why not?

Realistically we all have an idea of what will work and what will not for us, custom gives us a hand. I have still bought second hand following this. Guess what, all of them off the rack, all of them sold on or altered to suit me. Custom helps.


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## Wildrover (Aug 10, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			for hooks and slices google ball flight laws
tops are mainly a rooky error, but we all hit the odd skinny one and it has nothing to do with shaft length
A sky is just one of things that happen to us all

Lie angle can affect toe up/down and impact meaning the face will be closed or more open, but most of bad shots you see will not benfit from a club fitting.

If i had to choose betrween being given a 2nd hand set from a forummer but I could practice as much as I liked vs 10 grand to spend on an uber fititng but limtied to 1 practice session a week, i know what i'd choose
		
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10 grand for a CF, I'm sure PXG won't even charge that.
I stand by what I wrote earlier having done CF for a few years now. Seen many a 6ft5 or so guy walk in with a standard length set who hit many thins/tops, amazing what an extra inch can do (oooh matron).

Lie angle is crucial, you can have a great swing but if your lie angle is off you won't get the benefits of it.

If you don't believe in CF then are you saying that a 6ft6 25 year old guy playing off 2 should buy the same set as a 5ft4 55 year old off 23 straight off the shelf?


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## Alex1975 (Aug 10, 2016)

Dont feed the troll...


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## guest100718 (Aug 10, 2016)

Wildrover said:



			10 grand for a CF, I'm sure PXG won't even charge that.
I stand by what I wrote earlier having done CF for a few years now. Seen many a 6ft5 or so guy walk in with a standard length set who hit many thins/tops, amazing what an extra inch can do (oooh matron).

Lie angle is crucial, you can have a great swing but if your lie angle is off you won't get the benefits of it.

If you don't believe in CF then are you saying that a 6ft6 25 year old guy playing off 2 should buy the same set as a 5ft4 55 year old off 23 straight off the shelf?
		
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Go for it. My clubs are custom fit. I just think the benefit if any is massively over stated


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## Alex1975 (Aug 10, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			Go for it. My clubs are custom fit. I just think the benefit if any is massively over stated
		
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I don't think it is, I just think its stated. I have not read everything but I bet there is no post saying "it changed my game to a HUGE degree". I think its more like "why would you not have the thing that fits you.

Again... I am not sure everyone is talking about the same thing when they say "custom fitting"... there is quite a lot that can be done that even the best OEMs don't bother with...


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## Backsticks (Aug 10, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			I think its more like "why would you not have the thing that fits you.
		
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I think thats where the mistake is. It seems like a sensible statement. But relies on 1) there existing a definition of what fits you, golf club wise, and 2) even if there is such a thing, and you had it, that it would confer any benefit to your play.

At the moment, there is evidence for neither.

The snake oil reference of the OP is very apt : it is the selling of a solution without any proof that the solution has any clear benefit or proof of being effective; involves a "well, at least try it and see for yourself" type sales pitch, aimed towards making the sale rather than justifying the claims for it; has a "is not the full solution, and may not help in all cases" type get out to ensure against those who will claim they gained no benefit; is sold by what can genuinely be termed 'quacks', who have no particular scientific, or real understanding of what they are trying to sell, and are just jumping on a bandwagon; doesnt really cost that much for a single 'dose' so is unlikely to be chased for allegations of fraud or non-delivery; has an element of the mysterious or dazzle of science (a power of computer and measurement technology, the equivalent of the magic potion and ingredients of the snake oil concoction).

In their defence, I feel club fitters are not out and out conscious frauds, but are as deluded as their customers and do believe they are selling a genuine solution - despite no evidence to back it up.


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## bobmac (Aug 10, 2016)

Backsticks said:



			In their defence, I feel club fitters are not out and out conscious frauds, but are as deluded as their customers and do believe they are selling a genuine solution - despite no evidence to back it up.
		
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Interesting


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## guest100718 (Aug 10, 2016)

Do a Google search on custom fitting and the claims made are staggering. . One bloke saying you can expect to knock 3 to 7 shots off overnight ...


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## Alex1975 (Aug 11, 2016)

Backsticks said:



			I think thats where the mistake is. It seems like a sensible statement. But relies on 1) there existing a definition of what fits you, golf club wise, and 2) even if there is such a thing, and you had it, that it would confer any benefit to your play.

At the moment, there is evidence for neither.

The snake oil reference of the OP is very apt : it is the selling of a solution without any proof that the solution has any clear benefit or proof of being effective; involves a "well, at least try it and see for yourself" type sales pitch, aimed towards making the sale rather than justifying the claims for it; has a "is not the full solution, and may not help in all cases" type get out to ensure against those who will claim they gained no benefit; is sold by what can genuinely be termed 'quacks', who have no particular scientific, or real understanding of what they are trying to sell, and are just jumping on a bandwagon; doesnt really cost that much for a single 'dose' so is unlikely to be chased for allegations of fraud or non-delivery; has an element of the mysterious or dazzle of science (a power of computer and measurement technology, the equivalent of the magic potion and ingredients of the snake oil concoction).

In their defence, I feel club fitters are not out and out conscious frauds, but are as deluded as their customers and do believe they are selling a genuine solution - despite no evidence to back it up.
		
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I think your not using the right people......


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## Backsticks (Aug 11, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			I think your not using the right people......
		
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"Ahhh, you mustnt be using the *right* snake oil.....what you need is *that* one"


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## Alex1975 (Aug 11, 2016)

Backsticks said:



			"Ahhh, you mustnt be using the *right* snake oil.....what you need is *that* one"
		
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Oh I get it now.... your right, good point well made... Ill just pick something generic up, it will be just as good... all us humans are the same size and create the same speed and the like... I am glad your here to have made such well thought out points and so eloquently... Your a fine addition to the forum and I shall stop thinking for myself and just ask you going forwards... dumbass....


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## Alex1975 (Aug 11, 2016)

Remind me... what is the first thing that happens when you arrive at your ski resort and you go to collect your ski hire... Oh ye, they measure you and give you ski`s that are the right size for you.. of and those polls, any will do wont they?


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## Robster59 (Aug 11, 2016)

For my two pennorth.  I've never been fitted and played for the last 8-9 years with a set of Mizuno MX-900 irons bought off the shelf.  Great clubs, won't hear a word against them.  Got me down from 20 to 12. 
However, I have never been fitted and so thought when it came to change them I would get fitted.  
I went to the Callaway fitting at St Andrews and we tried my Mizuno's against various Callaway irons with different shafts.  
It was all shown on trackman as well as me feeling from my own swing, result and general feel as to which was best for me.
The end result?

Irons - Callaway XR (5-PW) (Mizuno 3-PW)
Shaft - UST Recoil graphite 65g weight (Mizuno TT Lite at circa 109g)
Lie - 2 deg flat (vs Mizuno standard lie)

The trackman confirmed what my own personal thoughts surmised.  The shots with the new setting where longer (as the lofts are jacked up that's no surprise) and but more importantly had a much tighter dispersion.  
Also the lighter shaft made them easier to hit and I am finding that I am scoring more consistently now than I was with the Mizuno's. 

For me, I'm delighted with my fitting experience and genuinely feel that it has been of a benefit.  What it also meant that when I ordered two new wedges I could also specify them 2 deg flat and with a lighter shaft. 

It also explained why I struggle with hybrids as they don't tend to suit someone with the flatter swing and they are not as adjustable.  Actually I don't need one now as the 23 deg loft on my 5 iron is close enough to the 20 deg loft on my fairway wood.


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## guest100718 (Aug 11, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			Remind me... what is the first thing that happens when you arrive at your ski resort and you go to collect your ski hire... Oh ye, they measure you and give you ski`s that are the right size for you.. of and those polls, any will do wont they?
		
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Me personally would need to learn to ski first. And good to see another stupid analogy.


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## woody69 (Aug 11, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			Oh I get it now.... your right, good point well made... Ill just pick something generic up, it will be just as good... all us humans are the same size and create the same speed and the like... I am glad your here to have made such well thought out points and so eloquently... Your a fine addition to the forum and I shall stop thinking for myself and just ask you going forwards... dumbass....
		
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Whilst I completely agree with you, if you are going to call someone a "dumbass" you really need to get "your" and "you're" right. I'm sorry, I don't know why it bothers me, it just does...

Other than that, I am right behind you. Go get 'em tiger!


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## USER1999 (Aug 11, 2016)

My last 3 sets of irons have had some element of custom fitting. Some full on, some just length, loft and lie. It does make them more comfortable to swing. 

I'm borderline stiff / regular, and as long as the shaft isn't light, can pretty much play the same rubbish golf with any make or model of shaft. I don't do light shafts though.

For me  the length is important, and so should the lie angle be. But it's not so much so.

My x blades are the right length, but I've not had the lie angles adjusted yet. They are stupidly flat at present. At a guess, about 4 degrees away from what i need. If I swing normally, they block out to the right. So I just play for more draw, and they work just fine.

When I am less lazy, I will get them set up properly, and then hook the heck out of them.

I might be a bit more fussy if my iron play was better though.


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## 3565 (Aug 11, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			Me personally would need to learn to ski first. And good to see another stupid analogy.
		
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Yep we're all stupid and not got a clue what we're talking about in the book of stupidness......


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## Sats (Aug 11, 2016)

Speaking of an analogy - Would you rather have a suit tailored or off the rack? Fittings will benefit you more than not having one. Saying it won't and that everyone is stupid is frankly worthy of a throat punch followed by a kick in the knackers.


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## Snelly (Aug 11, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			Your a fine... dumbass....
		
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The word is you're.


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## guest100718 (Aug 11, 2016)

Sats said:



			Speaking of an analogy - Would you rather have a suit tailored or off the rack? Fittings will benefit you more than not having one. Saying it won't and that everyone is stupid is frankly worthy of a throat punch followed by a kick in the knackers.
		
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All the analogies are stupid. As is one about a suit.


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## Backsticks (Aug 11, 2016)

Yes, all the various analogies just show the woolly thinking, handwaving justification, for the pseudo science. It is these half a ring of truth platitudes that the custom fit industry trades on.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Its like the one about tooth brushes. We all go to our dentist and get custom fitted for our toothbrushes dont we ? Of course we do - we all have different mouths, shapes of teeth, numbers and sizes of teeth, etc. How could you possible clean your teeth with a standard brush. I know ! Crazy ! Sure, it was fine decades ago for people to just buy a toothbrush in the supermarket or chemist (its true there would be shelves full of them !). But we have moved on from that in care of our teeth. And we have the technology for full 3-D image capture of our teeth profiles and geometry, jaw movement etc, which allows the dentist to specify the correct toothbrush for each of us. He sends the spec to the Colgate or whoever, and they make one according to the specs supplied to ensure optimum care for our teeth. So, surely, like we all use custom made toothbrushes, we should all use custom fitted golf clubs.


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## Backsticks (Aug 11, 2016)

Snelly said:



			The word is you're.
		
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That wasnt really the element of his post that was offending me ! 

Anyway, Alex makes a very fine and cogent argument. The logic is impeccable. Yes. I am wrong. His presentation and justification in the defence of custom fitting is very winning.
I am converted !


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## Alucard (Aug 11, 2016)

If you are happy with your swing and have finished tinkering with it then custom fitting is ok and certainly can not do any harm. 

If you are working on your swing and changing it in any major way to improve the way you play then it stands to reason you will need a new custom fit to incorporate ant major swing changes you made, just like if you put weight on after purchasing a tailor made suit etc.

There are many people that can play standard clubs of one brand or another very well as they fit themselves by trying many different clubs until they found a set they could hit and could see they can ht and feel utra comfortable with them.
.
There are others that used the Ping Dot system to get fit so that the club sits correctly at address (provided that they have been shown how to hold a club and how it should sit at address.

 Anyone who is  6 feet 4 or more or 5 foot one or less must automatically realise that off the shelf clubs probably will not do for them unless they are simple minded and this will be seen at address (provided they have gone to see a good teaching pro which any new starter surely must do firstly)

Then there are those that need the added confidence that a fitting can bring them to eliminate any self doubt that they mat have about their equipment being to blame instead of their own  poor golf swings, and then there are those that do not care and can adapt to most clubs and shoot low scores regardless.

It is one of these things where some like it and some do not think it matters and neither side is right as it is what works for each individual and it is up to each individual.
The proof will be in the scores they shoot on the Golf course. The main thing is that everyone enjoys playing the game when they are lucky enough to get the chance to play.


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## USER1999 (Aug 11, 2016)

Who custom fit Keegan Bradley? He should ask for his money back.


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## garyinderry (Aug 11, 2016)

:rofl:     looks so wrong doesn't it. 




murphthemog said:



			Who custom fit Keegan Bradley? He should ask for his money back.
		
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## 3565 (Aug 11, 2016)

I'm sure, the tour players just get their clubs off the shelf, along with Sir Bradders with his bike in next 5 min?


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## guest100718 (Aug 11, 2016)

3565 said:



			I'm sure, the tour players just get their clubs off the shelf, along with Sir Bradders with his bike in next 5 min?
		
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Exactly. ........ at the elite level it may offer some small benefit.  But for club players.  Not so much.

Go and read what claims are made about custom fit and tell me if they sound true.


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 11, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			Exactly. ........ at the elite level it may offer some small benefit.  But for club players.  Not so much.

Go and read what claims are made about custom fit and tell me if they sound true.
		
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Completely arse about face.  Less benefit for elite players as they have much more talent to be able to cope with the misfitting club. 

Why don't you actually provide some constructive debate rather than calling every analogy stupid and telling everyone to go and find your evidence for you?


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## garyinderry (Aug 12, 2016)

Here is one for you,


Patrick Reid was interviewed one day recently and asked how he managed to play so much better today than he had the pervious day. 

His reply was that he had been given a new driver and shaft that he felt more comfortable with.  He said the day before he couldn't get any drives within 50 yards of where he was aiming. The following day he was piping his new driver and even felt like he could go after it.

The thing is.  He had been fitted for both drivers at one stage. Has a better more repeatable swing than any amateur, yet our once a driver purchase fitting is supposed be 'right for us'. 



My view is that is worthwhile getting something vaguely suitable, loft wise, shaft wise etc.  It is certainly fun and educational using different options to get a feel for what you like and just as importantly, dislike. You can play good golf with any old clubs, it can be made that bit easier with clubs set up for you.  Golf will remain a hard game, you don't have to fight the tools of the game too.


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## guest100718 (Aug 12, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Completely arse about face.  Less benefit for elite players as they have much more talent to be able to cope with the misfitting club. 

Why don't you actually provide some constructive debate rather than calling every analogy stupid and telling everyone to go and find your evidence for you?
		
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Wiggins uses his bike as a golf club?

I've looked and can't find anything concrete.  Just wild claims and stupid analogies.


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## Fish (Aug 12, 2016)

I've played with people at my club and off here that have been fitted and they still knob if off the tee, carve it off the tee, fat and thin their irons &#128540; being fitted does not overly help a handicap golfer as a handicap golfer will be inconsistent in many areas of their game which no amount of fitting can  help! 

Loft & lie adjustment yes,, knowing what shaft you need to match your speed, yes,  full fitting no, unless you need a some mental stimuli.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 12, 2016)

Fish said:



			I've played with people at my club and off here that have been fitted and they still knob if off the tee, carve it off the tee, fat and thin their irons &#63004; being fitted does not overly help a handicap golfer as a handicap golfer will be inconsistent in many areas of their game which no amount of fitting can  help! 

Loft & lie adjustment yes,, knowing what shaft you need to match your speed, yes,  full fitting no, unless you need a some mental stimuli.
		
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What is a "full fitting"? 

If you are "fitted" for a specific shaft, had lofts and lies adjusted aside from grips what else can a "full fitting" provide?


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 12, 2016)

All top athletes use every bit of science to squeeze every second, yard or whatever out of their performance. Froome's bike is fitted for him, because in the long run it helps. Although he is quite capable of successfully riding other bikes. It maximises his performance. I'll bet they even tweak it between difference sections of a race (scoundrels)
Top golfers want every yard they can get (they're not so different to us...), as tightly grouped as possible, every day. So they use science to max out on everything.And they don't do it once, it's an ongoing process - the human body isn't a machine, some days different things need tweaking. No brain surgery needed to understand that, I hope.
We have access to the same science, but it costs, so people see different levels of value in it. 
So I get the argument that it's of varying value to amateurs, but that's up to us as individuals to decide. As is the value in buying a Â£100 driver over a Â£300 driver.
I hope no one out there would be arrogant enough to tell me what value of club is, or isn't worth buying. 
Similarly, if anyone were to suggest that there is no value in fitting for anyone, that's incredibly naive.


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## Alex1975 (Aug 12, 2016)

Backsticks said:



			Yes, all the various analogies just show the woolly thinking, handwaving justification, for the pseudo science. It is these half a ring of truth platitudes that the custom fit industry trades on.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Its like the one about tooth brushes. We all go to our dentist and get custom fitted for our toothbrushes dont we ? Of course we do - we all have different mouths, shapes of teeth, numbers and sizes of teeth, etc. How could you possible clean your teeth with a standard brush. I know ! Crazy ! Sure, it was fine decades ago for people to just buy a toothbrush in the supermarket or chemist (its true there would be shelves full of them !). But we have moved on from that in care of our teeth. And we have the technology for full 3-D image capture of our teeth profiles and geometry, jaw movement etc, which allows the dentist to specify the correct toothbrush for each of us. He sends the spec to the Colgate or whoever, and they make one according to the specs supplied to ensure optimum care for our teeth. So, surely, like we all use custom made toothbrushes, we should all use custom fitted golf clubs.
		
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Ye I use the same size as my 5 year old.... oh, wait, no I dont... I use a larger one than her... 

Its not really my intent to talk you round. I don't care what clubs you use, it just seems a shame your bagging on something you clearly know nothing about. Perhaps educate yourself.


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## Alex1975 (Aug 12, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			What is a "full fitting"? 

If you are "fitted" for a specific shaft, had lofts and lies adjusted aside from grips what else can a "full fitting" provide?
		
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I guess static fit and dynamic fit is what he means.

A full fitting with someone who knows what they are on about would be the static fit, so length, loft lie, grip size, grip shape. Then you are into shaft weight, where the weight is in the shaft, flex, where the flex is in the shaft. Shaft orientation, swing weight. With adjustable clubs do you want to be using a degree more and knocking loft off to open the face or the reverse, how the distance fits your bag, how the ball lands and so on and so on.

An example of this is that I was not getting good use out of a 3 wood but wanted a club that on occasion I could get to the par 5s below regulation. We put together a hybrid with 17* and a low/low heavy shaft. It was a case of having a bullet flight that conditions permitting can creep/roll up onto the par 5 greens in two. More use all round for me than a 3 wood, not going to fly as high but can be used off the tee and still get out there. There is no substitute for swing speed but I am not going to gain any of that so lets see if we can make the numbers work for us in another way.... Custom fit... its only physics, entirely quantifiable physics.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 12, 2016)

As many of the people on here who advocate fitting are also those who claim to be "working on their game/swing" one could be forgiven for thinking that, for those, a fitting may be pointless unless, like Tour pro's , it is constantly reviewed.

If their swing evolves and becomes flatter or more upright then the previously fitted clubs will no longer be suited to them as the lie angle will be out. Similarly if their transition slows down the shaft could then be too stiff and vice versa.

Overall I see nothing wrong with club players having clubs fitted but too many then think that it is the answer to "every young maiden's prayers" when it isn't.


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## Alex1975 (Aug 12, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			As many of the people on here who advocate fitting are also those who claim to be "working on their game/swing" one could be forgiven for thinking that, for those, a fitting may be pointless unless, like Tour pro's , it is constantly reviewed.

If their swing evolves and becomes flatter or more upright then the previously fitted clubs will no longer be suited to them as the lie angle will be out. Similarly if their transition slows down the shaft could then be too stiff and vice versa.

Overall I see nothing wrong with club players having clubs fitted but too many then think that it is the answer to "every young maiden's prayers" when it isn't.
		
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Its unlikely someone will change their tempo, loft and lie should be checked every year. That aside, I don't think anyone thinks its the answer, I think we are a bunch of golf addicts who enjoy every aspect of the game and this can be part of it.

it really is not about sticking in the next shaft and gaining x yards, its about getting your whole bag put together to work together and work with you. 

I have not seen anyone suggest that its in any way instead of skill or practice.


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 12, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			An example of this is that I was not getting good use out of a 3 wood but wanted a club that on occasion I could get to the par 5s below regulation. We put together a hybrid with 17* and a low/low heavy shaft. It was a case of having a bullet flight that conditions permitting can creep/roll up onto the par 5 greens in two. More use all round for me than a 3 wood, not going to fly as high but can be used off the tee and still get out there. There is no substitute for swing speed but I am not going to gain any of that so lets see if we can make the numbers work for us in another way.... Custom fit... its only physics, entirely quantifiable physics.
		
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Or you could find a clearance 2hybid in a bargain bin in the Edinburgh Wooden Mill for Â£35 for example.
ðŸ˜Š
Embarrassing maybe, but exactly the same logic.
Only I use mine to try and reach some trickier par 4s. Not so much quantifiable physics, more quantifiable 'howmuchcanIgetawaywithwithoutherindoorsnoticing'.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 12, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			Its unlikely someone will change their tempo, loft and lie should be checked every year. That aside, I don't think anyone thinks its the answer, I think we are a bunch of golf addicts who enjoy every aspect of the game and this can be part of it.

it really is not about sticking in the next shaft and gaining x yards, its about getting your whole bag put together to work together and work with you. 

I have not seen anyone suggest that its in any way instead of skill or practice.
		
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But that is really my point.

There is little logic to support fitting but if it makes people happy and it does no harm to anyone else; fine, go with it.

BTW as for changing tempo a friend who is a teaching pro' tells me it is quite a common change as swings evolve.


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## 3565 (Aug 12, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			Exactly. ........ at the elite level it may offer some small benefit.  But for club players.  Not so much.

Go and read what claims are made about custom fit and tell me if they sound true.
		
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I don't need to go read about the claims of if custom fitting are true or not, as I for one have had it proven to me with 2 different fitters that getting fit can 'help' your game and be more consistent. One session was when I took a course on club fitting and I hit 5 different 6 irons and the only difference between all of them was length and lie. The first I couldn't hit anywhere in the middle of the club, the next 3 were OK, so-so, and in between the 2, but the last club I hit one shot and knew instantly that was the club, I hit another and said its just totally a different feel and club.  

I suppose it depends on your own skill level that will dictate if custom fit is for you or not, so maybe it's just not for you!


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## guest100718 (Aug 12, 2016)

3565 said:



			I don't need to go read about the claims of if custom fitting are true or not, as I for one have had it proven to me with 2 different fitters that getting fit can 'help' your game and be more consistent. One session was when I took a course on club fitting and I hit 5 different 6 irons and the only difference between all of them was length and lie. The first I couldn't hit anywhere in the middle of the club, the next 3 were OK, so-so, and in between the 2, but the last club I hit one shot and knew instantly that was the club, I hit another and said its just totally a different feel and club.  

I suppose it depends on your own skill level that will dictate if custom fit is for you or not, so maybe it's just not for you!
		
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Zzzzzzzzzz


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## 3565 (Aug 12, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			Zzzzzzzzzz
		
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:rofl:Think some on here think the same about your posts on this thread.


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 12, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			I've looked and can't find anything concrete.  Just wild claims and stupid analogies.
		
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What more concrete evidence do you want other than every top athlete in every sport using science as much as possible to wring out every tiny last advantage they can.
For golfers this consists of custom fitting to the 'n' th degree.?
Have you ever been inside the Ping van for example and spoken to the guys about how they go about their business (other golf manufacturers are available)
You and I might not understand the theory behind it, but as practical physicists these guys know their onions.
When top pros are within a fraction of a shot of each other over a season, surely you can see the benefit of getting slightly better iron grouping, or a more controllable spin on a wedge?
It might only be a shot or two improvement per tournament, but that's thousands of pounds a year to the player. 
And God knows how much to the manufacturer.


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## guest100718 (Aug 12, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			What more concrete evidence do you want other than every top athlete in every sport using science as much as possible to wring out every tiny last advantage they can.
For golfers this consists of custom fitting to the 'n' th degree.?
Have you ever been inside the Ping van for example and spoken to the guys about how they go about their business (other golf manufacturers are available)
You and I might not understand the theory behind it, but as practical physicists these guys know their onions.
When top pros are within a fraction of a shot of each other over a season, surely you can see the benefit of getting slightly better iron grouping, or a more controllable spin on a wedge?
It might only be a shot or two improvement per tournament, but that's thousands of pounds a year to the player. 
And God knows how much to the manufacturer.
		
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Mmmm I Said that already. You fitting zealots need to get your stories straight.


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 12, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			But that is really my point.

There is little logic to support fitting.
		
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There's every logic to support fitting.
Tiny improvement is worth thousands of pounds to a pro player.
Regular fitting by someone who knows their swing will keep their game as near to 100% for as much of the season as possible.
A shot here or there is more TV time. Which is a better sponsor.
Which is more Wonga.

&#128536;


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 12, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			Mmmm I Said that already. You fitting zealots need to get your stories straight.
		
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So you're happy that fitting offers an edge.
Good.
Once you accept that, the discussion is over.
It's not up to you or me to judge anyone out there on how they spend their money as an amateur.
Someone wants full fitting.
You say it's not worth it.
You say you want a Â£300 Titleist driver.
I say it's not worth it.
I want a full set of irons.
Someone else says I only need a half set of used clubs.
Where do you draw the line?

Yes I can play golf with any kind of stick. But it's up to me to choose what level of club suits me.
And it's a poor show from you if you ridicule my choice.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 12, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			There's every logic to support fitting.
Tiny improvement is worth thousands of pounds to a pro player.
Regular fitting by someone who knows their swing will keep their game as near to 100% for as much of the season as possible.
A shot here or there is more TV time. Which is a better sponsor.
Which is more Wonga.

&#63000;
		
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If you had read my post you would have seen I was referring to those who post on here.

I am not aware of many Tour players contributing to this particular discussion!

If, however, club golfers wish to go through this process then fine. That's their business and nothing to do with me. Just so long as they do not subsequently make ridiculous claims of the benefits and gains.


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## Backsticks (Aug 12, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			There's every logic to support fitting.
Tiny improvement is worth thousands of pounds to a pro player.
Regular fitting by someone who knows their swing will keep their game as near to 100% for as much of the season as possible.
A shot here or there is more TV time. Which is a better sponsor.
Which is more Wonga.

&#128536;
		
Click to expand...

If there is any logic, we havent seen it in this thread, nor am I aware of it anywhere else.

Your post is a perfect example of the non-logic, and general woolly thinking that is employed in the delusional thinking about club fitting.

'Which is more wonga' is in no way a conclusion that there is merit to club fitting.
And the more half-baked fluff that is put out to try to justify it, the more the snake oil view of it is enhanced.


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## guest100718 (Aug 12, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			So you're happy that fitting offers an edge.
Good.
Once you accept that, the discussion is over.
It's not up to you or me to judge anyone out there on how they spend their money as an amateur.
Someone wants full fitting.
You say it's not worth it.
You say you want a Â£300 Titleist driver.
I say it's not worth it.
I want a full set of irons.
Someone else says I only need a half set of used clubs.
Where do you draw the line?

Yes I can play golf with any kind of stick. But it's up to me to choose what level of club suits me.
And it's a poor show from you if you ridicule my choice.
		
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Lol who's ridiculing it. My only point is that club fitting makes no discernible difference to a golfers score. There are a long list of things that will make a difference and club fitting is rightly near or at the bottom.


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## Backsticks (Aug 12, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			What more concrete evidence do you want other than every top athlete in every sport using science as much as possible to wring out every tiny last advantage they can.

You and I might not understand the theory behind it, but as practical physicists these guys know their onions.

When top pros are within a fraction of a shot of each other over a season, surely you can see the benefit of getting slightly better iron grouping, or a more controllable spin on a wedge?
It might only be a shot or two improvement per tournament, but that's thousands of pounds a year to the player. 
And God knows how much to the manufacturer.
		
Click to expand...

Every top athlete using science makes no case for club fitting being beneficial. It just means lots do it. They are sheep, and superstitious, and in the main, have little science or physics knowledge themselves.

'Practical physicists'? More like handyman quacks with an interest in golf. If they know their onions they would have widely distributed information showing how beneficial club fitting is. (Or maybe those who really do know their onions saw there was nothing in it and got out of the game).

Your last line are a list of correct statements, but have nothing to do with stating the case for club fitting.


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 12, 2016)

3565 said:



			Or has he ever driven a car that the seat isn't the right height or distance for his stature for 4hrs? After all it's just a seat we sit on? 

Click to expand...




guest100718 said:



			What a daft analogy.  Do.you actually get custom fitted for your car seat then?
		
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The OP was JohnnyDee.  Johnny is a lovely little fella; little, relative to me, being the operative word.  Given our substantial difference in size, I seriously doubt whether I could get into the driver's seat of Johnny's car, let alone drive it; Johnny meanwhile could comfortably get into my driver's seat but simply wouldn't reach the pedals.  The set up of each vehicle relative to its respective driver allows that driver to perform more comfortably, and consequently better.  

No you don't get custom fitted for a car seat, but it does allow you the option to change your position to best suit yourself.  Were Johnny & I to have to drive the same car with the same seat fixed in the one position, it would suit one of us slightly better than the other, but probably would suit neither of us well.  Move that to a golf club and it should be fairly obvious to a sensible thinking individual that the standard fit golf club that you would have both of us use will have the same effect as a fixed drivers seat; it will allow neither of us to start from the best address position and consequently our ability to perform will to some degree be compromised.  

Your response is not to provide a sensible counter argument but simply to call the analogy daft.  My experience is that people who call everyone else's explanations daft without being able to provide a logical counter argument are usually the stupid ones.  Having been asked to provide some constructive debate you've ignored the opportunity and reverted to type.  I rest my case.




guest100718 said:



			Zzzzzzzzzz
		
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3565 said:



			:rofl:Think some on here think the same about your posts on this thread.
		
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Only some?  You do surprise me. :rofl:


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## guest100718 (Aug 12, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			The OP was JohnnyDee.  Johnny is a lovely little fella; little, relative to me, being the operative word.  Given our substantial difference in size, I seriously doubt whether I could get into the driver's seat of Johnny's car, let alone drive it; Johnny meanwhile could comfortably get into my driver's seat but simply wouldn't reach the pedals.  The set up of each vehicle relative to its respective driver allows that driver to perform more comfortably, and consequently better.  

No you don't get custom fitted for a car seat, but it does allow you the option to change your position to best suit yourself.  Were Johnny & I to have to drive the same car with the same seat fixed in the one position, it would suit one of us slightly better than the other, but probably would suit neither of us well.  Move that to a golf club and it should be fairly obvious to a sensible thinking individual that the standard fit golf club that you would have both of us use will have the same effect as a fixed drivers seat; it will allow neither of us to start from the best address position and consequently our ability to perform will to some degree be compromised.  

Your response is not to provide a sensible counter argument but simply to call the analogy daft.  My experience is that people who call everyone else's explanations daft without being able to provide a logical counter argument are usually the stupid ones.  Having been asked to provide some constructive debate you've ignored the opportunity and reverted to type.  I rest my case.






Only some?  You do surprise me. :rofl:
		
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Cool I'll cancel my daughters driving lessons and just tell her all she needs is to move the seat a bit.


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 12, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			Cool I'll cancel my daughters driving lessons and just tell her all she needs is to move the seat a bit.
		
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I'm not sure we needed any more proof of the value your posts bring to this thread but still you've managed to provide it.


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## guest100718 (Aug 12, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			I'm not sure we needed any more proof of the value your posts bring to this thread but still you've managed to provide it. 

Click to expand...

Lol is that it? No smart analogy about cutting bread to the right size for the toaster or some such nonsense?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 12, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			No you don't get custom fitted for a car seat, but it does allow you the option to change your position to best suit yourself.  Were Johnny & I to have to drive the same car with the same seat fixed in the one position, it would suit one of us slightly better than the other, but probably would suit neither of us well.  Move that to a golf club and it should be fairly obvious to a sensible thinking individual that the standard fit golf club that you would have both of us use will have the same effect as a fixed drivers seat; it will allow neither of us to start from the best address position and consequently our ability to perform will to some degree be compromised.
		
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Actually even club-fitters admit that is not simply a case that tall people require longer clubs and more diminutive players shorter.

If you think fitting works for you fine but nobody can conclusively prove that it will make a difference to all players.


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 12, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			Lol who's ridiculing it. My only point is that club fitting makes no discernible difference to a golfers score. There are a long list of things that will make a difference and club fitting is rightly near or at the bottom.
		
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Define discernable.

Let's see if we can find some terms we agree on &#128521;


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## guest100718 (Aug 12, 2016)

Will it instantly knock shots of someone's handicap as j have seen claimed many times.?


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 12, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Actually even club-fitters admit that is not simply a case that tall people require longer clubs and more diminutive players shorter.

If you think fitting works for you fine but nobody can conclusively prove that it will make a difference to all players.
		
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Nor did I suggest that was the case.  

I did suggest that the same club was unlikely to suit both of us equally well, if it suited either of us at all.  I'm also not claiming that buying a set of custom made clubs will see me, or anyone else winning tournaments hand over fist.  All I'm claiming is that having a set of clubs that fits me better gives me a better chance of producing my best golf more often, just as adjusting the driving seat to suit allows me the best chance to drive the car well.  It's not an easy game & I don't see the need to make it any harder than it needs to be.  

You wouldn't go to play wearing the wrong size shirt, trousers or shoes; so why would you go with the wrong size clubs?


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## 3565 (Aug 12, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			The OP was JohnnyDee.  Johnny is a lovely little fella; little, relative to me, being the operative word.  Given our substantial difference in size, I seriously doubt whether I could get into the driver's seat of Johnny's car, let alone drive it; Johnny meanwhile could comfortably get into my driver's seat but simply wouldn't reach the pedals.  The set up of each vehicle relative to its respective driver allows that driver to perform more comfortably, and consequently better.  

No you don't get custom fitted for a car seat, but it does allow you the option to change your position to best suit yourself.  Were Johnny & I to have to drive the same car with the same seat fixed in the one position, it would suit one of us slightly better than the other, but probably would suit neither of us well.  Move that to a golf club and it should be fairly obvious to a sensible thinking individual that the standard fit golf club that you would have both of us use will have the same effect as a fixed drivers seat; it will allow neither of us to start from the best address position and consequently our ability to perform will to some degree be compromised.  

Your response is not to provide a sensible counter argument but simply to call the analogy daft.  My experience is that people who call everyone else's explanations daft without being able to provide a logical counter argument are usually the stupid ones.  Having been asked to provide some constructive debate you've ignored the opportunity and reverted to type.  I rest my case.






Only some?  You do surprise me. :rofl:
		
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:thup:


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## 3565 (Aug 12, 2016)

Blue in Munich said:



			Nor did I suggest that was the case.  

I did suggest that the same club was unlikely to suit both of us equally well, if it suited either of us at all.  I'm also not claiming that buying a set of custom made clubs will see me, or anyone else winning tournaments hand over fist.  All I'm claiming is that having a set of clubs that fits me better gives me a better chance of producing my best golf more often, just as adjusting the driving seat to suit allows me the best chance to drive the car well.  It's not an easy game & I don't see the need to make it any harder than it needs to be.  

*You wouldn't go to play wearing the wrong size shirt, trousers or shoes; so why would you go with the wrong size clubs?*

Click to expand...

Is their any proof that wearing oversize/undersized clothing and shoes would deteriorate your game as much as custom fit would improve it?


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 13, 2016)

Backsticks said:



			If there is any logic, we havent seen it in this thread, nor am I aware of it anywhere else.

Your post is a perfect example of the non-logic, and general woolly thinking that is employed in the delusional thinking about club fitting.

'Which is more wonga' is in no way a conclusion that there is merit to club fitting.
And the more half-baked fluff that is put out to try to justify it, the more the snake oil view of it is enhanced.
		
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I think you and I have different definitions of the word logic.
The whole aim of being professional is to earn money.
To earn money you need to be better than as many of your peers as possible.
Professional golfers need to be as consistent as possible for as much of the season as possible. 
To do that they want the best possible tools for the job.
So they have a team of people providing them with that.

I think the logic chain is simple.
You think there is no advantage to fitting clubs.
Every successful professional thinks there is.
They earn more money at their profession than you do
Therefore their group opinion holds more water than yours.
Again - a logical conclusion.

Not to say you aren't entitled to your opinion. But to ridicule people who earn money using something you think is a waste of time seems to me to be the illogical reaction.


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 13, 2016)

MetalMickie said:



			Actually even club-fitters admit that is not simply a case that tall people require longer clubs and more diminutive players shorter.

If you think fitting works for you fine but nobody can conclusively prove that it will make a difference to all players.
		
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Yes!

Something we can agree on.

Nothing works for all players.

But because it DOES work for some means that it works. Full stop

And that means that there is value in it.

It's just down to the individual what that value is in terms of financial outlay.


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## bobmac (Aug 13, 2016)

My neighbour is 70 and is having trouble hitting his driver straight. He hits it to the right and loses 2 or 3 balls per round.
I checked his swing and grip and surprisingly both looked fine.
When I checked his driver I saw the problem.....Regular shaft.
I gave him another driver with the same loft but with a soft regular shaft to try.
He used it the next day and only missed one fairway in the first cut.
A change in shaft saved him 4-6 penalty shots per round.


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 13, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			Will it instantly knock shots of someone's handicap as j have seen claimed many times.?
		
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Nothing in golf should be instantaneous, otherwise it would make the game too easy and we'd all get bored.
But, with regular monitoring it maximises performance at the top level. (Last notch maybe, but it's there as part of the package)
So I think it's logical to think it would work the same for most.
The thing is, how often should it be done? If someone is a 24 handicapper they would need to put it together as part of a training/practice/playing package for it to be worthwhile in my opinion.
But then, I personally don't see the point in buying a Â£300 driver until you get down to single figures. 
However, I would never challenge anyone's right to do either.

Also, if I was to invest Â£300 in one club it would make sense to me to spend an extra few quid on getting it fitted, at least with a nice floppy shaft - I'm never going to get enough club head speed to warrant anything else.

I also agree that there are probably far too many people out there claiming to be able to offer the service who really don't know their onions. But that's the same for all services industries.


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 13, 2016)

bobmac said:



			My neighbour is 70 and is having trouble hitting his driver straight. He hits it to the right and loses 2 or 3 balls per round.
I checked his swing and grip and surprisingly both looked fine.
When I checked his driver I saw the problem.....Regular shaft.
I gave him another driver with the same loft but with a soft regular shaft to try.
He used it the next day and only missed one fairway in the first cut.
A change in shaft saved him 4-6 penalty shots per round.
		
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'Nuff said.

&#128526;&#128076;


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## Smiffy (Aug 13, 2016)

bobmac said:



			A change in shaft saved him 4-6 penalty shots per round.
		
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That's hardly a "fitting" though Bob is it?


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## delc (Aug 13, 2016)

There are at least some things that have to be right about a set of clubs. I would suggest lie angle, grip size, shaft length and approximate shaft stiffness, in that order. Back in the 1960's I was a reasonably decent junior golfer using a set of John Letters Master Model clubs. I used these for a while when I took up golf again in middle age, but when the shafts started breaking, I bought a new set of standard irons. From then on I struggled (shanking and fat shots) because modern clubs seem to be longer and more upright, presumably because the average person has got taller, but I hadn't. Eventually I had a custom fit which showed that I needed the lie set a bit flatter than standard and my game improved a lot after that. My current spec is standard length, regular shafts, 2 degree flat lie and one or two extra layers of tape under the grips.


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## guest100718 (Aug 13, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			That's hardly a "fitting" though Bob is it?
		
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It's an anecdote


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## bobmac (Aug 13, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			That's hardly a "fitting" though Bob is it?
		
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The regular shaft was too stiff for his swing speed and he couldn't square up the face at impact.
By changing the shaft to a softer shaft, he was able to square up the face.
So with no change to his set up or technique, he can now hit it straight saving him 4-6 shots per round.


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## Smiffy (Aug 13, 2016)

bobmac said:



			The regular shaft was too stiff for his swing speed and he couldn't square up the face at impact.
By changing the shaft to a softer shaft, he was able to square up the face.
So with no change to his set up or technique, he can now hit it straight saving him 4-6 shots per round.
		
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But that's what I've always said.
In the "good old days" (before fitting became so popular) you went into a pro shop and bought a set of off the peg clubs with shafts that matched your swing speed. That's all you needed.
If you swung fast you bought stiff, swung normally you bought regular, swung slower you bought soft.
You've just pointed out the obvious to the guy.


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## delc (Aug 13, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			But that's what I've always said.
In the "good old days" (before fitting became so popular) you went into a pro shop and bought a set of off the peg clubs with shafts that matched your swing speed. That's all you needed.
If you swung fast you bought stiff, swung normally you bought regular, swung slower you bought soft.
You've just pointed out the obvious to the guy.
		
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There is more to club fitting than just shaft flex!


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 13, 2016)

delc said:



			There is more to club fitting than just shaft flex!
		
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If that's the case I've been arguing the wrong point. I apologise.
My definition of 'fitting' is changing an off the shelf club to suit a player. Because of the way technology has advanced we can always look deeper and deeper into it.
But the logic is the same, surely.
A 70 year old (presumably) mid+ handicapper can't hit his driver so you change the club to stop him losing balls.
Today, Rory is hooking too many off the tee. So you adjust the head, shaft, and wonder if the grip needs an extra layer of tape, looking to keep the dispersion to a target number.
Same logic. Different actions.
The question, I thought, was does that help any golfers, or is it hogwash?
And is it worth club golfers taking advantage of the technology?
Again, obviously if it works for one it may work for any. So it's up to the individual how far they go with it.
If this guy comes back to Bob because he's started hooking 8 out of 10 drives but his swing hasn't changed, would you suggest he do anything to his club that may help?


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 13, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			But that's what I've always said.
In the "good old days" (before fitting became so popular) you went into a pro shop and bought a set of off the peg clubs with shafts that matched your swing speed. That's all you needed.
If you swung fast you bought stiff, swung normally you bought regular, swung slower you bought soft.
You've just pointed out the obvious to the guy.
		
Click to expand...

But if you go back to the even gooder old days you couldn't do that you just had a steel shaft or a steel shaft. It was huge stuff when they started being able to adjust the swing point (old senile memory - what was the term they used when you could lower the point of flex further down the shaft to suit the faster swingers?)
That was a general question - I'm not presuming that you're old enough to remember this stuff.
But that was high grade fitting way, way back when....


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## guest100718 (Aug 13, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			If that's the case I've been arguing the wrong point. I apologise.
My definition of 'fitting' is changing an off the shelf club to suit a player. Because of the way technology has advanced we can always look deeper and deeper into it.
But the logic is the same, surely.
A 70 year old (presumably) mid+ handicapper can't hit his driver so you change the club to stop him losing balls.
Today, Rory is hooking too many off the tee. So you adjust the head, shaft, and wonder if the grip needs an extra layer of tape, looking to keep the dispersion to a target number.
Same logic. Different actions.
The question, I thought, was does that help any golfers, or is it hogwash?
And is it worth club golfers taking advantage of the technology?
Again, obviously if it works for one it may work for any. So it's up to the individual how far they go with it.
If this guy comes back to Bob because he's started hooking 8 out of 10 drives but his swing hasn't changed, would you suggest he do anything to his club that may help?
		
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The swing fault causing an 8 out of 10 hook will still be there.....   opening the face a few degrees will just mask it for a.bit.  maybe. 

Better to practice and work on swing path etc.


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 13, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			The swing fault causing an 8 out of 10 hook will still be there.....   opening the face a few degrees will just mask it for a.bit.  maybe. 

Better to practice and work on swing path etc.
		
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But is a mid handicapper 70 year old going to get much out of that sort of swing rebuild? Given that although his swing is wrong, its consistent, so helping him with a technical adjustment means he hits the ball straighter and enjoys the game more.
Btw you know far more about this fitting stuff that I do - I was thinking of going back to a slightly stiffer shaft &#128522;


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## delc (Aug 13, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			But if you go back to the even gooder old days you couldn't do that you just had a steel shaft or a steel shaft. It was huge stuff when they started being able to adjust the swing point (old senile memory - what was the term they used when you could lower the point of flex further down the shaft to suit the faster swingers?)
That was a general question - I'm not presuming that you're old enough to remember this stuff.
But that was high grade fitting way, way back when....
		
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Lower kickpoint for weaker players who have difficulty getting the ball in the air, higher kickpoint for better players to stop them ballooning the ball too high in the air.


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## bobmac (Aug 13, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			But is a mid handicapper 70 year old going to get much out of that sort of swing rebuild?* Given that although his swing is wrong,* its consistent, so helping him with a technical adjustment means he hits the ball straighter and enjoys the game more.
Btw you know far more about this fitting stuff that I do - I was thinking of going back to a slightly stiffer shaft &#62986;
		
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If you read my post again you'll see I checked his swing and grip and they were both fine.
I expected to see a weak grip which may have explained the open clubface, especially when combined with an out to in swingpath.
But they were fine so I'm not going to fix something that isn't broken.
The cure, as I have already mentioned, was to get a shaft that suited his reduction in swing speed, hence the softer shaft.


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 13, 2016)

bobmac said:



			If you read my post again you'll see I checked his swing and grip and they were both fine.
I expected to see a weak grip which may have explained the open clubface, especially when combined with an out to in swingpath.
But they were fine so I'm not going to fix something that isn't broken.
The cure, as I have already mentioned, was to get a shaft that suited his reduction in swing speed, hence the softer shaft.
		
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When I said wrong I meant wrong in the way that noones swing is perfect. I didn't mean to disparage your name or reputation &#128519;


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 13, 2016)

delc said:



			Lower kickpoint for weaker players who have difficulty getting the ball in the air, higher kickpoint for better players to stop them ballooning the ball too high in the air.  

Click to expand...

Long LONG time ago but I thought it was the other way round. High kick point meant the slower swingers could get more whip into it whilst the flat bellies could swing faster with the lesser flex

Either way...Memories, like the doobries in my whatsit. As the song says

&#129299;&#128512;


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## Liverpoolphil (Aug 13, 2016)

There is no one size fits all - there is no definitive answer 

Some people will spend thousands on full fittings and every single club and it won't improve their game one single bit - for some it will take their HC down 

Some can take a set of the shelf and it will be a set that will propel them into single figures 

There will never be the answer that fitting "will" improve your game - the answer IMO will always be it "could" improve your game


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## Alucard (Aug 13, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There will never be the answer that fitting "will" improve your game - the answer IMO will always be it "could" improve your game
		
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I agree it could improve your game if you take lessons now and again and above all Practice the right way on the course and at the driving range as often as your schedule will allow. Correct practice will improve your game.


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## Backsticks (Aug 13, 2016)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is no one size fits all - there is no definitive answer
		
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Or, does it mean that there is nothing to it. In the manner of the stopped clock being correct twice a day, the case of someone getting fitted and saying they reduced their handicap, may well have happened anyway. Peoples handicaps do reduce. Getting fitted, whether beneficial or not in itself, may have coincided with a concerted effort to improve, get lessons, practice, take it seriously, play regularly rather than rarely, etc. Or maybe they could just as well have gone into a superstore and picked whatever new set of the shelf at random.
If it doesnt work for some, then is it not more likely that it is just a sham ?
If it doesnt fit - then if the fitting process had any credibility, it would, in those cases, say that - "look from our analysis, it really doesnt matter what you play, fitting will make no difference to your game (please pay at the desk on the way out!)". But how often does this happen (not just a "you should get some lessons as well maybe" hint) - but an out and out - forget it, we cant fit you.
Club fitters dont seem to do this. They fit anyway. And if there is no improvement, then say, "well there are more factors involved and fitting is a solution for all" - which shows they havent a rashers really.


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 13, 2016)

Backsticks said:



			If it doesnt work for some, then is it not more likely that it is just a sham ?
		
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No, the exact opposite.
You can say, it works for these people, therefore, if you want to, we can give you the same service.
(The important thing is, if you want to. There will always be golfers that want the newest and the best, and noone would ever say that if a high handicapper comes in to buy a brand new model at full price a salesman should say, leave it - you'll be able to pick it up half price in 6 months)
Then......
Once you have the customer in front of you the good salesman would probably suggest a second fitting (obviously FOC) before making the sale.
Then once he has the close but before taking the cash he should say that best results are achieved alongside practice and possibly lessons, and we recommend a regular top up at a reduced rate, once every 3 - 6 months.
Book the now very happy customer in and build a nice steady cash flow.
Simples
&#129299;


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## Region3 (Aug 13, 2016)

I've lost track now.

Are we "discussing" whether club fitters can provide improvement through equipment, or that some clubs are more suitable for an individual than others?


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## guest100718 (Aug 13, 2016)

Region3 said:



			I've lost track now.

Are we "discussing" whether club fitters can provide improvement through equipment, or that some clubs are more suitable for an individual than others?
		
Click to expand...

No idea. Perhaps we need some physics....


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## Norrin Radd (Aug 13, 2016)

as far as my club fitting is concerned i cant say that it has helped my game or to that matter made it worse .
 i won the Yonex clubs that were fitted to my swing on the day but have yet to play any golf with them as i am still unable to walk the course due to injury . 
the way this thread is going i will let you all know on about page 750.:thup:


must say the clubs feel really nice when i swing them in the garden.


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## Smiffy (Aug 14, 2016)

Norrin Radd said:



			must say the clubs feel really nice when i swing them in the garden.
		
Click to expand...

I play off scratch without a ball


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## ger147 (Aug 14, 2016)

Smiffy said:



			I play off scratch without a ball


Click to expand...

I'm off 14 with no ball - keep forgetting I'm playing with no ball so when I can't find it I blob the hole...


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## freddielong (Aug 14, 2016)

The problem is people's expectations and this is probably driven by the manufacturers, custom fit can not turn you into a good golfer from a duffer, custom fit may help tighten up your dispersion on your good swings but with you bad swings you are still on your own.


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## Backsticks (Aug 14, 2016)

freddielong said:



			The problem is people's expectations and this is probably driven by the manufacturers, custom fit can not turn you into a good golfer from a duffer, custom fit may help tighten up your dispersion on your good swings but with you bad swings you are still on your own.
		
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What is unmeasured is how much club fitting effects your golf. There simply seems to be no data linking club fitting as a process (and no clear evidence for even that the targets club fitters aim for having any credibility themselves), and the effect on ones game.
This allows both people's expectations and club fitters claims to drift way out of whack with reality. There simply is no check. Anecdotes here and there one way or the other are only that. And when those pushing the claim are in the main club fitters with a stake in the myth being perpetuated, you would have to be very sceptical.
At the moment, the best one could probably say is case not proven. And so it would make you wonder how close to genuine fraud the sales claims made for the process are.


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 14, 2016)

Backsticks said:



			What is unmeasured is how much club fitting effects your golf. There simply seems to be no data linking club fitting as a process (and no clear evidence for even that the targets club fitters aim for having any credibility themselves), and the effect on ones game.
This allows both people's expectations and club fitters claims to drift way out of whack with reality. There simply is no check. Anecdotes here and there one way or the other are only that. And when those pushing the claim are in the main club fitters with a stake in the myth being perpetuated, you would have to be very sceptical.
At the moment, the best one could probably say is case not proven. And so it would make you wonder how close to genuine fraud the sales claims made for the process are.
		
Click to expand...

I disagree and your scepticism leads me to ask if you've ever been fitted? As many others have pointed out, a fitting isn't a quick fix, but if done properly may aid a golfer into improving, especially if done in conjunction with lessons and good practice. I've had fitting and bought off the shelf. I enjoyed the process of getting fitted, especially trying different makes and models and as I do it for a hobby and not a living, and I have the money to spend on new clubs, why shouldn't I or anyone else get a fitting. As it happened, when I've been fitted I enjoyed some success, winning a club comp and a moderate cut. I was happy and isn't that the whole point?


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## bobmac (Aug 14, 2016)

Backsticks said:



			Anecdotes here and there one way or the other are only that. And when those pushing the claim are in the main club fitters with a stake in the myth being perpetuated, you would have to be very sceptical.
		
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You seem to have a very low opinion of pros/club fitters


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## upsidedown (Aug 14, 2016)

Had a Titliest demo day at ours two weeks ago and explained I was looking for a 3 wood with a higher ball flight than my currently one , Callaway Diablo.
Hit some balls with stiff and regular shafts and settled on the reg, then tweaked the settings till I was happy.

Picked it up today and straight into the Medal and very pleased with it, lovely soft draw and 220 carry.

Not a lot of science maybe, but the fitters nounce to know which setting suited my swing.


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## 3565 (Aug 14, 2016)

bobmac said:



			You seem to have a very low opinion of pros/club fitters
		
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Id like him to take on Tom Wishon. :thup:


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## Backsticks (Aug 14, 2016)

bobmac said:



			You seem to have a very low opinion of pros/club fitters
		
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Well, no, only of their claims on the club fitting. It really does seem to be a monster out of control. First it was the occasional specialist here and there. Then club fitting days as a promo from manufacturers at clubs or ranges. Then more and more pros got into it. Then the big chains stores got into it. All to varying degrees of course, with various lots looking down on others.



3565 said:



			Id like him to take on Tom Wishon. :thup:
		
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Have read a couple of his books. He has certainly studied the topic. But never links all the fine tuning to game improvement. (Note also that as a sort of high priest of custom club fitting, he has a serious dog in the fight on the topic, and quite a revenue stream hanging on it - so not exactly impartial). 

Nor do people who try to make the case for club fitting :



HomerJSimpson said:



			but if done properly may aid a golfer into improving, especially if done in conjunction with lessons and good practice.
		
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*if* done properly,
*may* aid,
in conjunction with *lessons* and *good* practice.

Why all the caveats ? If there were substance to it, then it would improve a golfer. Thats what is being sold - improvement without practice - mould the club to the swing, not have someone need a flawed swing to suit a 'wrong' club.
So it should give an improvement without lessons and without practice. (Lessons and practice may bring more, but of course, then the clubs would be 'wrong' again....).
If there is substance to the club fitting, then it should improve a golfer, full stop - the only case where it shouldnt, is when the golfer is sent away again with the same clubs and told "you already have the 'perfect' clubs, I can do nothing for you".


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## 3565 (Aug 14, 2016)

Backsticks said:



			Well, no, only of their claims on the club fitting. It really does seem to be a monster out of control. First it was the occasional specialist here and there. Then club fitting days as a promo from manufacturers at clubs or ranges. Then more and more pros got into it. Then the big chains stores got into it. All to varying degrees of course, with various lots looking down on others.


Have read a couple of his books. *He has certainly studied the topic*. But never links all the fine tuning to game improvement. (Note also that as a sort of high priest of custom club fitting, he has a serious dog in the fight on the topic, *and quite a revenue stream hanging on it - so not exactly impartial*). 

Nor do people who try to make the case for club fitting :


*if* done properly,
*may* aid,
in conjunction with *lessons* and *good* practice.

Why all the caveats ? If there were substance to it, then it would improve a golfer. Thats what is being sold - improvement without practice - mould the club to the swing, not have someone need a flawed swing to suit a 'wrong' club.
So it should give an improvement without lessons and without practice. (Lessons and practice may bring more, but of course, then the clubs would be 'wrong' again....).
If there is substance to the club fitting, then it should improve a golfer, full stop - the only case where it shouldnt, is when the golfer is sent away again with the same clubs and told "you already have the 'perfect' clubs, I can do nothing for you".
		
Click to expand...

I think 30-40yrs of club designing, building and custom fitting, certainly qualifies him to state a case that club fitting will help a player to play better golf with the right equipment fitted for them. He's certainly more qualified then what you are spouting about that custom club fitting is codswallop and really whether he has a revenue stream hanging on it or not, he knows more about it then you'll ever know and you saying show me the facts how it improves, you show us the facts where it doesn't help or improve a golfer?


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## Backsticks (Aug 14, 2016)

3565 said:



			you show us the facts where it doesn't help or improve a golfer?
		
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Thats usually the tack that is tried when someone has already lost the real debate - when proof cannot be given, shift the burden of proof to one of disproof by others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 14, 2016)

Backsticks said:



			Thats usually the tack that is tried when someone has already lost the real debate - when proof cannot be given, shift the burden of proof to one of disproof by others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

Click to expand...

Well, follow your own advice then; you say it doesn't work, prove it, rather than expecting the rest of us to disprove your position by proving that it does.


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## the_coach (Aug 14, 2016)

for sure there is no substitute for 'good sound technique' to improve  folks - mostly folks don't take advantage of the best ways to improve  that technique that being lessons with PGA Pro

{and a PGA Pro is in an unique 'place' to be able 'fit' clubs for folks, given swing knowledge and accurate measuring tech}

from  the get-go folks considering going for a custom fit should go and do  that but with realistic expectations that custon fit clubs are not on  their own a magic improvement if other areas of good technique and good  training practice ain't being addressed 
(imo folks should be going  to get fit if the $'s allow that - but on that it's a better ways to go  get fit - than buy then change and buy over again several sets that were  not fit but bought just to see if 'acquiring new clubs' would help any  when the issue and problems don't lie with the stuff being swung)

for sure a golfer taking lessons _and also having the best 'fit in their golf clubs'_ then has the very best opportunity for more consistent results with their best swings they put on the ball 
plus  also having the best opportunity for a considerable narrowing down of  their worse shot results giving then much better opportunity to improve  on the scores week on week

a player having the lessons but using clubs not the 'best _fit_  for the swing' has narrowed that opportunity to improve the score week  on week a ways as not having the best fit will hamper strike, distance  control and accuracy and distance

a player having no lessons to improve plus a not so great technique and no 'best _fit_ for the swing' has even less opportunity again to improve the score week on week

now 'fitting results' can be, and are being qualified by the physics and math of launch monitor data 
so  there can be and is a direct comparison of data with differing OEM's  clubs, model ranges, and the make-up of those clubs in regard to  clubhead performance, shaft performance so folks have proof in the data  that there is for sure 'substance' in club fitting

the myth for real is that _'fitting' isn't for higher index players_'  with the cry being it's due to the fact that the swing motion is not  reliable or repeatable so fit is really just for Tour Pro's or elite  golfers - but in reality higher index players stand to get a bigger  improvement overall than elite players 

if the measure of benefit  of proper club fitting mid to higher index players is experiencing  visible and measurable improvement in shot distance, distance control,  accuracy so scores so over time index improvement after being fit then  mid/high index players most often get this to a bigger degree and more  often after a custom fit than lower index players as there's a bunch  bigger area to improve with the mid/higher index players than the elite  golfer where the area to improve is exponentially smaller


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 15, 2016)

Backsticks said:



			... Thats what is being sold - improvement without practice 
......
If there is substance to the club fitting, then it should improve a golfer, full stop.
		
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I think I see where the problem is. 
You're basing your argument on the wrong definition.
No reputable pro / manufacturer that I've heard of ever suggests that fitting is the be all to game improvement.
If you want / expect / believe there is a simple one stop answer then you're playing the wrong game.
Club fitting works as a general principle. Once you accept that you will stop seeing this terrible conspiracy around every corner.
It may not have worked for you when you tried it. But maybe you were doing it with the wrong person.&#128561;
Peace
&#128536;


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## Alucard (Aug 15, 2016)

I think that the vast majority of golfers can fit themselves once they understand how to grip the club and address the ball correctly by going for a course of lessons. Their pro can also see if the club sits correctly at address and only really ill fitting clubs will destroy a persons game.
If a person wants to get as much as they can out of golf (performance wise) better to get some old blades that give less help and have lessons with a good teaching pro, rather than spend money on a fitting that you are not ready for.

Once you have the basics of the game and you are hitting the old blades pretty well much of the time then you can learn to work the ball by hitting High, Low, Draw, Fade etc by changing stance or ball position etc.

If you then later decide to get fit then I feel sure the golfer will benefit by having clubs with a slightly bigger sweet spot that will help he or she to be even more consistent.
Practice will certainly improve your game provided you practice right and often. 

There are the majority of people that will be suited well enough to learn by off the peg clubs. 
Pings fitting chart is usually accurate enough to get lofts and lies correct by simply measuring your hands from the floor at address and seeing how the club sits and anyway if you buy half a set of old forged blades to start with you can have them bent by your good teaching pro for  a fraction of the cost of getting fit for new clubs.
Some people need to believe that they have the perfect clubs for them and a fitting gives them this confidence and it may help them mentally. 

 Golf is not so precise for all the shots though as we have to grip down sometimes and move the ball around in our stances lean back or Forward on uphill and downhill lies sometimes all these things together.
If you are fit with a full shot ball inside left heel then if you change this then you change the fitting.
Practicing the right way is the only surefire way to improve.


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 15, 2016)

Alucard said:



			I think that the vast majority of golfers can fit themselves once they understand how to grip the club and address the ball correctly by going for a course of lessons. Their pro can also see if the club sits correctly at address and only really ill fitting clubs will destroy a persons game.
If a person wants to get as much as they can out of golf (performance wise) better to get some old blades that give less help and have lessons with a good teaching pro, rather than spend money on a fitting that you are not ready for.

Once you have the basics of the game and you are hitting the old blades pretty well much of the time then you can learn to work the ball by hitting High, Low, Draw, Fade etc by changing stance or ball position etc.

If you then later decide to get fit then I feel sure the golfer will benefit by having clubs with a slightly bigger sweet spot that will help he or she to be even more consistent.
Practice will certainly improve your game provided you practice right and often. 

There are the majority of people that will be suited well enough to learn by off the peg clubs. 
Pings fitting chart is usually accurate enough to get lofts and lies correct by simply measuring your hands from the floor at address and seeing how the club sits and anyway if you buy half a set of old forged blades to start with you can have them bent by your good teaching pro for  a fraction of the cost of getting fit for new clubs.
Some people need to believe that they have the perfect clubs for them and a fitting gives them this confidence and it may help them mentally. 

 Golf is not so precise for all the shots though as we have to grip down sometimes and move the ball around in our stances lean back or Forward on uphill and downhill lies sometimes all these things together.
If you are fit with a full shot ball inside left heel then if you change this then you change the fitting.
Practicing the right way is the only surefire way to improve.
		
Click to expand...

Good post.
Just one question...

Why do you play an R7 Quad rather than an old persimmon driver?
And how much did you pay for it?

&#128519;


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## Alucard (Aug 15, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Good post.
Just one question...

Why do you play an R7 Quad rather than an old persimmon driver?
And how much did you pay for it?

&#62983;
		
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I have a Ping laminated driver that I practice with sometimes but I hit the ball further with the Quad that I bought a couple of months ago from a 2nd hand bin in a golf shop in Alvor. 

I paid 35 euros for it and it is the best money I ever spent. I smoke it 30 to 50 yards past most people with the modern technologies drives and usually find the fairway.

I also have a set of Ping eye 2 clubs that are my main set (the best clubs ping ever made in my opinion)  but I have been practicing with the Slazenger blades I bought last month for 68 quid  to hone in my swing and the practice is paying off. 

I was on the driving range this morning at 6.30am working on shaping the ball right and left with the Adams hybrid I have, thats the only modern club I own but I think that its useful from the light rough as well as the fairway and I can hit a high fade, a lower draw or a really low stinger with it.


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## 3565 (Aug 15, 2016)

Backsticks said:



			Thats usually the tack that is tried when someone has already lost the real debate - when proof cannot be given, shift the burden of proof to one of disproof by others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

Click to expand...

ive not lost anything. The proof for me is not in the research online to quantify that club fitting works or not, it's in the trying that majority will look for. It's been proven to me that getting fitted helps, but like the coach says it's also in conjunction to a good and solid foundation. I've seen that a shorter length driver gets me consistency in centred hits, that's club fitting, seen that the wrong length shaft and lie in your irons, even with a consistent swing, doesn't help, that's club fitting. 

You are the one shouting from the roof tops about this, but it's been proven to me that it can contribute and will help as have many others who have gone down that route.


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## garyinderry (Aug 15, 2016)

There is a video of rick shiels trying irons which were extremely upright and then flat to show how it affected his ball flight.  

Proof that indeed lie angle will help a player if adjusted correctly. 

Will find it later and post it for those interested.


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## thesheriff (Aug 15, 2016)

Had my first experience of the GC2 monitor at AG at the weekend.  Made it clear I wasn't necessarily looking to buy that day, but I was desperate to get on a launch monitor and hit some drivers and they were happy to oblige.  Hit a couple of drivers with a few different shafts for a taster.

Superb experience and something I'll be happy to pay for when buying new club.  Would I expect the fitting alone to change my game significantly? No, but wow would I feel like the man with new custom fit clubs I've smashed on GC2, which may indeed lead to better scores.  

Marginal gains from club fitting + boost in confidence and motivation with custom fit gear = potential lower scores

A few observations from the data:

My swing speed is much lower than I thought - 92ish mph average, maxing out at 100mph
Carry distance is much lower than I thought - 220 yards average, maxing out at 260

The guy asked me to come back with my own driver next time to get comparative data (I didn't bring it as it was an unplanned visit).  Anyways, I can see where this is heading.  I just hope I can hold on til birthday/xmas/bonus/lottery win.


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## Alucard (Aug 15, 2016)

garyinderry said:



			There is a video of rick shiels trying irons which were extremely upright and then flat to show how it affected his ball flight.  

Proof that indeed lie angle will help a player if adjusted correctly. 

Will find it later and post it for those interested.
		
Click to expand...

I have seen that video, Rick Shiels openly admits that he is one of the majority of people that is suited to a standard Lie.

But for the video he has a Forged Iron Bent upright and then Flat to unfeasible positions to prove a point that everyone knows that a club with the Heel right up in the air at correct address or toe right up in the air at correct address can affect ball flight.

The only thing this really proves is that only an idiot would game clubs so ill fitting and nobody should need a fitting to see something so obvious by themselves.


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## garyinderry (Aug 15, 2016)

It was only 4 degrees I think.  


He went to the extreme as an experiment. 

It would be quite common for those buying off the rack or second hand to be at least a degree or two or without noticing.  


I bought some irons recently and have been told they were one degree flatter than standard.

Yeah, like an idiot I haven't got on a lie board yet and I am aware of these things. Many others won't have a clue.


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## Alucard (Aug 15, 2016)

garyinderry said:



			It was only 4 degrees I think.  


He went to the extreme as an experiment. 

It would be quite common for those buying off the rack or second hand to be at least a degree or two or without noticing.  


I bought some irons recently and have been told they were one degree flatter than standard.

Yeah, like an idiot I haven't got on a lie board yet and I am aware of these things. Many others won't have a clue.
		
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Flatter may be better as then you can swing the club more freely instead of on too steep a plane. 

To quote another view of this subject from an expert.

"Since the focus on custom-fitting began, we've seen a huge trend to fit clubs more upright in lie angle than the manufacturer standard specifications, but is this always the right solution? 

More often than not, when the golfer is digging the toe into the ground, a swing path alteration is the better solution than to adjust the clubs. 

That's because clubs' lie angles are derived from a study of the best players in the game, the tour professionals. These guys (and ladies) know how to strike a golf ball in the most efficient manner possible, and even the tallest players do not have their irons adjusted more than a degree or two upright, at the most! 

So why do I see so many recreational golfers, of normal height, begin fitted 3 and even 4 degrees or more upright? Because they do not understand the simple physics of the proper path of the hands through the impact zone. Almost every recreational golfer comes through the impact zone with their hands too high . . . too far away from their body . . . so that the angle of approach to the ball is too steep. The toe digs in and a poor shot results. 
Makes me wonder about how effective fitting really is?

Rather than adjust the clubs' lie angle several degrees upright, which will permanently trap the golfer into this incorrect path to the ball, wouldnâ€™t it be smarter to use that club feedback to help you find the proper path to the ball, so you can hit better quality shots? "


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 15, 2016)

Alucard said:



			I have a Ping laminated driver that I practice with sometimes but I hit the ball further with the Quad that I bought a couple of months ago from a 2nd hand bin in a golf shop in Alvor. 

I paid 35 euros for it and it is the best money I ever spent. I smoke it 30 to 50 yards past most people with the modern technologies drives and usually find the fairway.

I also have a set of Ping eye 2 clubs that are my main set (the best clubs ping ever made in my opinion)  but I have been practicing with the Slazenger blades I bought last month for 68 quid  to hone in my swing and the practice is paying off. 

I was on the driving range this morning at 6.30am working on shaping the ball right and left with the Adams hybrid I have, thats the only modern club I own but I think that its useful from the light rough as well as the fairway and I can hit a high fade, a lower draw or a really low stinger with it.
		
Click to expand...

You can go off people, you know...
&#128540;&#128077;
I think it's safe to say not too many people out there are likely to be on the range at 6.30 and even fewer will have paid that sort of money for their driver.
Good luck with your bargains..


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## Alucard (Aug 15, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			You can go off people, you know...
&#63004;&#62541;
I think it's safe to say not too many people out there are likely to be on the range at 6.30 and even fewer will have paid that sort of money for their driver.
Good luck with your bargains..
		
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Lol thanks, I have to go then to get my practice in before I go and feed my team of racing pigeons and then after that its a bit too hot to practice.


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 15, 2016)

Alucard said:



			Rather than adjust the clubs' lie angle several degrees upright, which will permanently trap the golfer into this incorrect path to the ball, wouldnâ€™t it be smarter to use that club feedback to help you find the proper path to the ball, so you can hit better quality shots? "
		
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Isn't this just a different interpretation of how to action the figures at the fitting?
The fitting shows up the problem, then what you can do is X or Y.
Some players will go down the practice route. But if the player has had that same swing for 10 years and has always had the problem he may find the cost of the fitting solution more palatable than months/ years of painful practice.
Like I said a few ages ago. If someone has the money to spend and sees a benefit to themselves, then noone should say they shouldn't do it.
ðŸ¤”


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## garyinderry (Aug 15, 2016)

Is there somewhere you can view the pros lie angles ?  

I'm couldn't find any when I looked before. 


Pros certainly have clubs the correct length making major lie adjustments less necessary.


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## Alex1975 (Aug 15, 2016)

Alucard said:



*proper* path to the ball, so you can hit better quality shots? "[/FONT][/COLOR]
		
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And what is that please?


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## Alucard (Aug 15, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			And what is that please?
		
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What is what? as I said I just quoted another golf expert that believes that golfers may be better off improving their existing swings rather than being locked into one that is deficient by clubs fitted to suit it.

With a more efficient swing you get a better smash factor or hit the sweet spot more often on the correct swing plane which may well  equate to more distance and consistency.
At the end of the day everyone has to decide what is best for themselves individually and if they want to spend money being fitted for expensive clubs that is their business but a fitting is definitely not the holy grail and does not suit everyone.
The writer of the article I quoted correctly said that off the shelf club lies are based on Pro golfers angles of attack and their angles of attack are the most  efficient in shifting a golf ball off in the right direction.. and that the Pros no matter how tall they are very rarely if ever have the clubs bent upright more than 1 or 2 degrees as this is inefficient.

The bottom line is that I believe that a fitting will not improve everyones game as is being claimed all too often by some but may help some golfers, if not physically improving their game it can help mentally.
The main thing is to enjoy the game and do not get too bogged down with manufacturers and sales mens spin as they are just out to sell clubs.


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## Alucard (Aug 15, 2016)

Alex1975 said:



			So having the lie angle that fits your rather than a stock one?!!!! 

According to the expert I quoted a stock one will fit most golfers provided they learn to swing the club on the right plane. I have pieced together some of his other points below.

 Pro golfers no matter how tall they are only ever have the club bent no more upright than 1 or 2 degrees at most if any, as below this is the most efficient swing plane.
While it seems that fitters are fitting ordinary players 3 or 4 degrees upright or more and locking them into an inefficient swing plane rather than suggesting that the player cures the problem by practice. 

It can never be as good making the club fit the swing as the smash factor is wrong from attacking the ball from a too upright plane.



What angle is the correct swing plane?
		
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I have read and I believe that the correct swing plane is usually a little flatter and the one that gives maximum distance with the long irons and accuracy with the short irons.  
The correct swing and on the right plane can adapt to hit any club well. Even a club head on the end of a hosepipe as has been seen and done.

I think the older clubs standard lies are flatter than the modern clubs and the fittings usually fit people even more upright and according to physics this is not so efficient. 
For example Hogans club in the USGA golf museum is 6 or 7 degrees flatter than the modern clubs standard lie,Trevino was the same and Doug Sanders similar.

These are some of the best ball strikers in the history of the game.

Compare that to the modern Tour pros not having their clubs bent upright by more than one or to degrees at most no matter what their height, there has to be a question.

Why are fittings suggesting weekend golfers have clubs bent upright 3 or 4 or more degrees? and is it really the right thing to do? especially as modern clubs standard lies tend to already be more upright than the older clubs lies when there were only blades and 1,2 and 3 irons in the bag and you had to learn to hit them to compete.

Some of Todays clubs should come with a warning label "Swing Deterioration and poor mechanics possible by using this club" lol.

The bottom line is that there are very few really good ball strikers at any level in todays game, (maybe  Stenson is one), on course or driving range Feedback of the club and swing is needed for improvement to take place. Thats why golfers are not improving.

Golfers in many cases no longer know the difference between a real good strike and a bad strike due to perimeter weighting and large sweet spots not allowing such reference.

The equipment that most golfers are using  is not designed to help them become more swing efficient but to try and hide inefficiencies.

As I say though each to their own and if anyone wants to spend a lot of cash on Clubs and a fitting then do it but it is not the holy grail and it will not improve everyones game and it may even hold some players games back due to the points I have raised.

We have to remember that manufacturers and salesmen want your money and will in many cases (not all) tell you what you want to hear to make a sale.


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## MadAdey (Aug 15, 2016)

The idea of custom fitting is to fit the clubs to the person. Maybe some people do have some crazy adjustments made, but that is what enables them to get the most from their swing. Should some people maybe sort out their swing so it is on a better swing plane, possibly. But that same person probably does not have the time or money to invest in making major swing changes so they have to use what they've got. 

Is custom fitting the holy grail to getting a a big handicap cut, no not at all. It may help you shave a couple off a round due to you striking the ball more consistently, but that is it. But is getting fitted CORRECTLY going to make you a worse player, definitely not. So seeing as all the major brands give free fitting you would be mad not to take advantage of it.


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## Alucard (Aug 15, 2016)

MadAdey said:



			But is getting fitted CORRECTLY going to make you a worse player, definitely not. So seeing as all the major brands give free fitting you would be mad not to take advantage of it.
		
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I agree that if an individual feels that they will benefit from a custom fit and new clubs then go for it.
I do not agree that a custom fit is the right thing for everyone,  as regards it being free from the major club vendors well its already included in the price of the clubs in most cases.  

Custom fit will not make your game worse but it could hold some players back from improving as they are fit into the swing they take on the day of fitting.

If they are custom fit and making major changes in their swings in the future then they will have to be re fit and that could be expensive as Selling the custom fit clubs on is difficult as they are fit for the individual and trade ins are a rip off in most cases.

Each to their own though and enjoying the game is the main thing.


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## Crow (Aug 15, 2016)

Hi Adey,
How's it going over there?
Have you joined a new club? 
Looks like a very nice course!


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 15, 2016)

Here's a question..

Once a club / set of clubs has been fully fitted to a player which parts of the fitting can be changed after time?

Eg presumably the shaft is simple enough to change. You can make a grip thicker easy enough. But can you make them thinner?
What about adjusting the lie?
Etc etc.


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## guest100718 (Aug 15, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Here's a question..

Once a club / set of clubs has been fully fitted to a player which parts of the fitting can be changed after time?

Eg presumably the shaft is simple enough to change. You can make a grip thicker easy enough. But can you make them thinner?
What about adjusting the lie?
Etc etc.
		
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Pretty much any thing can be changed. Although not all clubs can be bent so easy.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Aug 15, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Here's a question..

Once a club / set of clubs has been fully fitted to a player which parts of the fitting can be changed after time?

Eg presumably the shaft is simple enough to change. You can make a grip thicker easy enough. But can you make them thinner?
What about adjusting the lie?
Etc etc.
		
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Loft & lie can be adjusted although if done too often it can weaken the club.

As for grips there are some slimmer than others (and lighter) plus less tape can be placed beneath.

Shafts, as well as being changed, can be lengthened and shortened.

Endless possibilities!


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## the_coach (Aug 15, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Here's a question..

Once a club / set of clubs has been fully fitted to a player which parts of the fitting can be changed after time?

Eg presumably the shaft is simple enough to change. You can make a grip thicker easy enough. But can you make them thinner?
What about adjusting the lie?
Etc etc.
		
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curious to the reason behind the Q?

short answer is yes stuff like 'lie'/'loft' etc can be changed after

& clubs can be re-gripped without as 'many wraps' for them to be thinner


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 15, 2016)

the_coach said:



			curious to the reason behind the Q?

short answer is yes stuff like 'lie'/'loft' etc can be changed after

& clubs can be re-gripped without as 'many wraps' for them to be thinner
		
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Something in Alucard's post about being fitted clubs being expensive to change.

I'm not a fitting fan but I think everyone has the right to spend their hard earned as they see fit.

As a salesman myself I think that the whole development of the swing should be part of the pitch:-

Get fitted today. Work on your swing and your fitting will develop with you....
Kind of pitch.

But to do that you need a certain amount of flexibility to play with things ongoing.

I just think most fitters must be missing a trick.

And if anyone says that thing about salesmen saying anything to get a sale I'll crush a blimmin' grape I blimey will.

&#128127;


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## Alucard (Aug 16, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Something in Alucard's post about being fitted clubs being expensive to change.


And if anyone says that thing about salesmen saying anything to get a sale I'll crush a blimmin' grape I blimey will.

&#62591;
		
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Lol, Clubs can be bent even cast ones but there is a danger that cast clubs have imperfections in the metal due to cavities (weak spots) that can form during casting and there is a possibility that they will break. 

Clubs with longer hosels are easier to bend and of course forged irons can be bent more easily than cast.  
The thing is that if we are being true to the argument of Fitting, in many cases you can not just re-bend the lie angle without altering the shaft length and that costs money.
For those were money is no object then it doesnt matter but for those that are counting every penny (the majority) then its worth thinking about before going down the fitting avenue and getting locked in.

My main concern with fitting was the fact that many weekend golfers are being fit into very upright lie angles, something that pros of even very tall height would never do.
This has a tendency to force the player to attack the ball from an angle that is too steep and reduces the efficiency of each strike and restricts swing improvement.

Modern clubs are already far more upright in lie angles than the clubs from the era of the great ball strikers, so I would be wary about being fit into clubs that were upright, unless I were 6 feet 7 tall or more, lol.
There is no right or wrong in this discussion as some will be happy with a fitting and others do not want to be locked in as they are working on improving and changing their swings.
The thing is manufacturers are bringing out new clubs several times a year nowadays and they have to sell them to someone so they are looking to promote sales in new ways.
They will not be selling me any because I do not buy into the importance of it.

Seve Ballesteros learned to play golf as a child by practice , practice, practice with a cut down 3 iron using pebbles on the beach as balls and he had all the shots in the bag with one club.

Practicing the right way and taking lessons from a good teaching pro is a better way to improve the efficiency and consistency of a golf swing to gain distance, backspin and accuracy and thankfully that will never change as golf is frustrating but character building and the elation when we play well is a real buzz.


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## garyinderry (Aug 16, 2016)

Bryson dechambeau has extremely upright clubs.

Much more than your average hacker.  

He has no problem hitting a good ball. 


Still waiting to see the proof that pros shy away from upright lie angles.  To my untrained eye on tv they all seem to have hands tighter to the body that  me and would require at least a degree or two upright to have the toe a touch in the air at address.


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## Alucard (Aug 16, 2016)

garyinderry said:



			Bryson dechambeau has extremely upright clubs.

Much more than your average hacker.  

He has no problem hitting a good ball. 


Still waiting to see the proof that pros shy away from upright lie angles.  To my untrained eye on tv they all seem to have hands tighter to the body that  me and would require at least a degree or two upright to have the toe a touch in the air at address.
		
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De Chambeaus clubs are all the same length made by Edel, so obviously they are very upright. He is a talent and an oddball that does things his own way.

The proof of pros lie angles is all over the internet if you look for it. 
for example Players like Ernie els 6 feet 5 plays 1 degree upright, Vijay Singh 6 feet 5 plays 2 or 3 degrees flat, look at Keegan Bradley, lol.
As I said the standard lie of a golf club is based on the data gleaned from seeing pro golfers strike the ball and is the one that is most likely to suit the majority of golfers.

You do not have to agree with me as we can agree to disagree but what I say about pro golfers having flatter swings is correct as physics shows that angle of attack affects ball flight etc and a flatter swing is what most pros use regardless of height.


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## garyinderry (Aug 19, 2016)

Here is one for you...



I had the day off yesterday so decided I would get my loft and lie looked at down at Clarkes golf centre.  He first checked the lofts which were a degree or two out here and there. Not much to worry about. 

I got on the lie board and hit some shots.   I was catching the heel on the ground.  

I tried some extremely flat irons and upright irons and I was producing the same impact delivery.   

My shot shape was pretty much the same with both lie angles. A bit of a pull to target.

The fitter said he didn't want to adjust the clubs as all it was doing was changing my static lie.  He recommend seeing a pro instead to work on my delivery.


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## Mozza73 (Aug 19, 2016)

Never been fitted, I did try once, a long time ago - the Pro took one look at me standing in the shop and dismissed it as only necessary for for people with certain builds and unusual swings. Sold me a set of Maxfli Revolution irons off the shelf :rofl:

I guess things have moved on but I'm willing to bet many retailers would still do exactly the same thing


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## Foxholer (Aug 19, 2016)

Alucard said:



			Lol, Clubs can be bent even cast ones but there is a danger that cast clubs have imperfections in the metal due to cavities (weak spots) that can form during casting and there is a possibility that they will break. 

Clubs with longer hosels are easier to bend and of course forged irons can be bent more easily than cast.  
The thing is that if we are being true to the argument of Fitting, in many cases you can not just re-bend the lie angle without altering the shaft length and that costs money.
For those were money is no object then it doesnt matter but for those that are counting every penny (the majority) then its worth thinking about before going down the fitting avenue and getting locked in.

My main concern with fitting was the fact that many weekend golfers are being fit into very upright lie angles, something that pros of even very tall height would never do.
This has a tendency to force the player to attack the ball from an angle that is too steep and reduces the efficiency of each strike and restricts swing improvement.

Modern clubs are already far more upright in lie angles than the clubs from the era of the great ball strikers, so I would be wary about being fit into clubs that were upright, unless I were 6 feet 7 tall or more, lol.
There is no right or wrong in this discussion as some will be happy with a fitting and others do not want to be locked in as they are working on improving and changing their swings.
The thing is manufacturers are bringing out new clubs several times a year nowadays and they have to sell them to someone so they are looking to promote sales in new ways.
They will not be selling me any because I do not buy into the importance of it.

Seve Ballesteros learned to play golf as a child by practice , practice, practice with a cut down 3 iron using pebbles on the beach as balls and he had all the shots in the bag with one club.

Practicing the right way and taking lessons from a good teaching pro is a better way to improve the efficiency and consistency of a golf swing to gain distance, backspin and accuracy and thankfully that will never change as golf is frustrating but character building and the elation when we play well is a real buzz.
		
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Alucard said:



			De Chambeaus clubs are all the same length made by Edel, so obviously they are very upright. He is a talent and an oddball that does things his own way.

The proof of pros lie angles is all over the internet if you look for it. 
for example Players like Ernie els 6 feet 5 plays 1 degree upright, Vijay Singh 6 feet 5 plays 2 or 3 degrees flat, look at Keegan Bradley, lol.
As I said the standard lie of a golf club is based on the data gleaned from seeing pro golfers strike the ball and is the one that is most likely to suit the majority of golfers.

You do not have to agree with me as we can agree to disagree but what I say about pro golfers having flatter swings is correct as physics shows that angle of attack affects ball flight etc and a flatter swing is what most pros use regardless of height.
		
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There is so much wrong and/or self-contradictory stuff in these posts that it's not worth pointing out the individual ones! 

the following refers to irons only...

My advice would be to get loft/lie checked every time - both statically (measurement) and dynamically (on a lie board) This can make an incredible difference to a set if a couple of irons are out. It certainly did with me - the club I always shied away from instantly becoming my favourite and my ball-striking instantly becoming much more consistent! garyinderry seems to be someone who unconsciously adjusts - something I have actually heard of too! 

Any further fitting can be considered a bit of a luxury, though Mizuno's DNA system can indicate which sort of shafts are likely to be more suitable - it's not bullet-proof though! One of the major considerations is whether to use light, medium or heavy, something I'm not sure that DNA actually suggests. I've found (experience/dabbling over many years) that I need relatively heavy irons. I could squeeze more head speed, therefore distance, with lighter ones, but the times I've tried them have been 'disasters' with me having no idea where the the ball will go! Likewise, stiff-ish shafts suit me better, for a similar reason - and I prefer/am more used to the feel.

Length isn't overly important, provided they are at least long enough. At standard length, my main set is half an inch shorter than my 'home' one, but I barely notice the difference - certainly after a couple of shots! I didn't really have a problem hitting the 6-iron of a set of blades built +1.75 for a 6'10 player!

Grip size is more for comfort than anything else - at least for me! Actual grip (with the hands) is more likely to affect shot shape than a slightly thicker or thinner grip. In other sports (tennis, hockey, squash etc), I've preferred a thicker than normal grip. so prefer a fatter than normal golf grip. Again, there doesn't seem to be sufficient difference in my shot shapes between my 2 sets, one of which is mid-size, while the other is 'standard! 

Ping's static fit may or may not be as good as a dynamic one, but at least it guarantees (hopefully) that loft/lie are consistent!


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## Alucard (Aug 19, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			There is so much wrong and/or self-contradictory stuff in these posts that it's not worth pointing out the individual ones! 


Ping's static fit may or may not be as good as a dynamic one, but at least it guarantees (hopefully) that loft/lie are consistent!
		
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So you are a fan of fitting and thats ok but in my opinion you place far too much importance in it and my opinion aint changing so we will agree to disagree.

There was nothing wrong in my post as it was all factually correct and I already said in an earlier post that pings colour chart is good enough for a beginner who need not get bogged down about fittings as they are really unimportant.

By the way cast clubs can be bent 3 or 4 degrees similar to Forged irons but they can break due to anomolies in the casting process. If you alter lies then the club lengths are possibly out (if you have already been fitted)

Anyway I have made my point and the proof is out there all over the internet for those that have the time and patience to check up on it themselves. Check on golfers heights and the lies they use.

Tour pros do swing on a much flatter plane than most weekend golfers, Bryson de Chambeaus clubs are all the same length as a 6 iron (I think) thats why they all look upright at address and standard Lies are taken from the ways pros swing their clubs.

Fitting weekend golfers in more and more upright lies is foolhardy and will hold back golfers that are trying to flatten out and improve their swings in the future.

Practice practice practice in the correct manner with a good teaching pro, in my opinion is a better way to invest your money rather than a fitting. Each to their own but nobody will ever sell me a fitting as they are over rated but someone has to buy into it as they have to sell you the latest and greatest clubs where the 7 iron has a 9 stamped on it etc.
The main thing is we all choose the way we go about taking up golf and people trying to force the idea of fittings on newbies over the important practicing the correct way as often as you can will always attract negative posts from those who disagree on the importance of them.
The main thing is that we enjoy our golf, I certainly enjoy mine.


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 19, 2016)

Alucard said:



			Practice practice practice in the correct manner with a good teaching pro, in my opinion is a better way to invest your money rather than a fitting. Each to their own 
.....
The main thing is we all choose the way we go about taking up golf and people trying to force the idea of fittings on newbies over the important practicing the correct way as often as you can will always attract negative posts from those who disagree on the importance of them.
The main thing is that we enjoy our golf, I certainly enjoy mine.
		
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Two things:-
I think I mentioned it before, I would argue that you are different to the majority of golfers on here no matter how much they argue. Most practice. Many practice enough. But I seriously wonder how many get up at the crack of dawn to practice shaping their shots like some I could mention.
Secondly, if anyone 'forces' any idea onto a beginner they should be lined up and mildly reprimanded - two wrongs don't make a right you know.
But enough people want to feel like a pro. Loads have money to burn when it comes to golf. And good luck to them.
I'm off the shelf. I don't practice. I swing too upright. Oh, and I'm absolute rubbish.
But I bet I enjoy myself more than most when I do get the chance to play
&#128513;&#128513;


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## Alucard (Aug 19, 2016)

Oohmeoldbackskanckered you are quite correct and its what you want out of the game, I like to be as good as I ca be at anything I try to do so I put the time in with it as I wouldnt sleep at night if I were shanking the ball or slicing it, lol.

I posted what I believed and gave another viable viewpoint instead of this fitting thing that many are pushing with the many comparisons to Car seats and suits etc, lol and gave some facts that are true and are all over the internet to see.

Anyway there is no definite answer to this as a fitting will help some to be a little more consistent but so will practicing the correct way with any old clubs as long as they ground correctly at address..

The main thing is to enjoy your golf the best you can, I am lucky having the course over the road from my home and having a good Pro there that I can seek advice from and have a nine hole lesson every week or so.

I have 4 sets of clubs all from the 80s and nineties and all sets have different shaft lengths and lie angles and I can hit them all the same. Thats why we have knees so we can adapt by flexing them.

 the Tiger Shark Great Whites (with the Gill pattern on the back) are a few yards shorter in the long irons distance wise due to the shaft lengths being a quarter inch less per club than the normal standard for that era but they go straight enough.
All I was trying to say was that newbies should not get all hung up on the clubs they are using and feel that they have to rush into a fitting as long as the clubs are grounding correctly at address thats all that matters.

Enjoy the game and then if they really feel that they want to splash some cash they will be in a better position to decide what they want.

I had a lesson with the Pro this morning on Putting and working the ball flight on the Long irons and Hybrid, I also bought a Titleist 975F 3 wood 14.5 degrees like mint today really cheap to fill the gap in my bag from 9,5 degree driver and 18 degree hybrid so tomorrow I will be at the range really early and hitting some balls with it.
I will be there early again as its going to be another scorcher, lol.


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## Backsticks (Aug 19, 2016)

Am all for people enjoying the game, and going about it in whatever way they wish. But I think many are being conned by the proposition that club fitting will, or at worst has a good chance of, helping their game. People may feel they get something from it, but if that is just an illusion, is it really a good thing ? i.e. they may well enjoy the process, may even believe the new clubs are better 'fitted' to them, and may leave with a renewed sense of confidence that they will play with the optimum club spec for them, but surely that is all based on the process having some sound foundation and credibility. If it cannot offer that, are people not just being taken advantage of. I do think so.


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## Region3 (Aug 19, 2016)

Alucard said:



			Oohmeoldbackskanckered you are quite correct and its what you want out of the game, I like to be as good as I ca be at anything I try to do so I put the time in with it as I wouldnt sleep at night if I were shanking the ball or slicing it, lol.

I posted what I believed and gave another viable viewpoint instead of this fitting thing that many are pushing with the many comparisons to Car seats and suits etc, lol and gave some facts that are true and are all over the internet to see.

Anyway there is no definite answer to this as a fitting will help some to be a little more consistent but so will practicing the correct way with any old clubs as long as they ground correctly at address..

The main thing is to enjoy your golf the best you can, I am lucky having the course over the road from my home and having a good Pro there that I can seek advice from and have a nine hole lesson every week or so.

I have 4 sets of clubs all from the 80s and nineties and all sets have different shaft lengths and lie angles and I can hit them all the same. Thats why we have knees so we can adapt by flexing them.

 the Tiger Shark Great Whites (with the Gill pattern on the back) are a few yards shorter in the long irons distance wise due to the shaft lengths being a quarter inch less per club than the normal standard for that era but they go straight enough.
All I was trying to say was that newbies should not get all hung up on the clubs they are using and feel that they have to rush into a fitting as long as the clubs are grounding correctly at address thats all that matters.

Enjoy the game and then if they really feel that they want to splash some cash they will be in a better position to decide what they want.

I had a lesson with the Pro this morning on Putting and working the ball flight on the Long irons and Hybrid, I also bought a Titleist 975F 3 wood 14.5 degrees like mint today really cheap to fill the gap in my bag from 9,5 degree driver and 18 degree hybrid so tomorrow I will be at the range really early and hitting some balls with it.
I will be there early again as its going to be another scorcher, lol.
		
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Can I ask what hc/index you play off, and do you think you would still be exactly the same with fitted clubs (or maybe worse)?


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## delc (Aug 20, 2016)

One sized golf clubs cannot possibly fit everybody from a 4'10" woman to a 6'10" man! Your clubs should at least be the correct length and lie angle for your body measurements and proportions. I also think that grip size is important.


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## Alucard (Aug 20, 2016)

Region3 said:



			Can I ask what hc/index you play off, and do you think you would still be exactly the same with fitted clubs (or maybe worse)?
		
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I had lessons back in 1991 and learned to swing a club and then over the next 24 years played around once or twice a year sometimes none, I have played less than 25 rounds of golf in my life since 1991.

My brother in law from the UK who plays every week, came to stay with us in Portugal earlier this year,  we moved 7 years ago and I was rusty as I had just a couple of sessions on the driving range for years. He wanted to play the Alto Golf course. 

I hit some good shots and plenty bad ones but I enjoyed it and decided that I was going to give it a proper go, so 3 months ago I began to practice as often as I can, in between looking after my racing pigeons and weight training and Wrestling training. lol

I booked a lesson or two with with the Pro and he gave me a good deal for on course training,if 3 people play 9 holes with him and after 3 games of 9 holes at Alto golf in Portimao near Alvor I was ready to try and shoot a score.

I was scored strictly 2 weeks ago on the Back 9 holes and shot 45 with 2 triple bogeys and last week I played the front nine and shot 43. with one triple bogey.
It is a par 72 championship standard course.

This week there was no 9 hole training game so I had a lesson on the range instead and I hope to be shooting 80 or less in the next 3 months and the Pro thinks this is a very good possibility. time will tell.

I am not able to join a club at the moment due to not being able to justify the expense, so I can not get an official HCP (in fact  I already stated this on a thread I began, asking advice on HCPS)

As regards fitted clubs, I believe that once I am happy with my swing and it wont be changing any more (I am working on flattening it a bit more) 

That a fitting wouldnt do any harm but I am a fan of the old style clubs lofts and lies. 
I play 3 to PW, I can hit a 1 and a 2 iron but I find the 18 degree hybrid more versatile. 
Things like grips I grip my own clubs as it took me 10 mins to figure out how to do it after watching a video on the web and my Ping Eye2 irons I just regripped with a length of string under the grip down the back of the grip.

I find this helps at the top of the backswing as on round grips the hand shape leaves a gap and if the bottom 3 fingers are too loose it can cause a fat shot. 
Im off out now to hit the new (to me) 3 wood I just purchased and hopefully hit it well as if so it will shave a shot or two off my score.


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## Alucard (Aug 20, 2016)

delc said:



			One sized golf clubs cannot possibly fit everybody from a 4'10" woman to a 6'10" man! Your clubs should at least be the correct length and lie angle for your body measurements and proportions. I also think that grip size is important.
		
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Women use different clubs made for their sex and you would be surprised how many people standard clubs will suit once the swing is on the correct plane.
Fittings are ok for those that feel they need them but even the tallest pros are not fit in massively upright lies 1 or 2 degrees tops and many play flatter lies..


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## SXRORY (Aug 20, 2016)

I have always used eBay for my irons. Choosing to get nice gear at an affordable price, working on the principle I will find a way to hit them. Generally it's worked out ok. I did however get some mizuno mp52's with some project x 6.0's, think it was the shafts they were like rock. Anyway did not happen for me. Lost distance and was pulling everything. Did give them a good go too, half a season. Now using ap2 which are not going anywhere for a good while. So I think a fitting does work if you want to spend that kind of money, As I would like to think I would not have ended up with the mizunos. It's just I been doing my own fittings of sorts lol at a lower price point.


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 20, 2016)

SXRORY said:



			... It's just I been doing my own fittings of sorts lol at a lower price point.
		
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&#128578;
Exactly! Every time we try a club and reject it because of feel or flight or whatever, we are using the principles of fitting.
The more important it is that flight, grouping, spin etc are to us, the greater detail we need when making a choice. 
Which (I think has been said before..) is why pros use it. BECAUSE IT WORKS!!!
The question then is 'How much do amateurs need it?'
Answer (as always). 'As much as they want'
If an amateur wants the same putter as a pro - he can buy it.
If an amateur wants a 9.5 degree driver that he can't use, because that's what his fave player uses - he can buy it.
Etc. Etc. Et-bloody-c.
Ad infinitum.
Fitting works. With different success for different people. And good luck to each and every one of them.
But...
If I ever play with someone who has paid thousands for top quality fitted clubs and they are daft enough to let me win - you deserve to buy the drinks. I'm having a Hobgoblin on you right enough &#128539;


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## guest100718 (Aug 20, 2016)

25 pages and still going!


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## Region3 (Aug 20, 2016)

Alucard said:



			I had lessons back in 1991 and learned to swing a club and then over the next 24 years played around once or twice a year sometimes none, I have played less than 25 rounds of golf in my life since 1991.

My brother in law from the UK who plays every week, came to stay with us in Portugal earlier this year,  we moved 7 years ago and I was rusty as I had just a couple of sessions on the driving range for years. He wanted to play the Alto Golf course. 

I hit some good shots and plenty bad ones but I enjoyed it and decided that I was going to give it a proper go, so 3 months ago I began to practice as often as I can, in between looking after my racing pigeons and weight training and Wrestling training. lol

I booked a lesson or two with with the Pro and he gave me a good deal for on course training,if 3 people play 9 holes with him and after 3 games of 9 holes at Alto golf in Portimao near Alvor I was ready to try and shoot a score.

I was scored strictly 2 weeks ago on the Back 9 holes and shot 45 with 2 triple bogeys and last week I played the front nine and shot 43. with one triple bogey.
It is a par 72 championship standard course.

This week there was no 9 hole training game so I had a lesson on the range instead and I hope to be shooting 80 or less in the next 3 months and the Pro thinks this is a very good possibility. time will tell.

I am not able to join a club at the moment due to not being able to justify the expense, so I can not get an official HCP (in fact  I already stated this on a thread I began, asking advice on HCPS)

As regards fitted clubs, I believe that once I am happy with my swing and it wont be changing any more (I am working on flattening it a bit more) 

That a fitting wouldnt do any harm but I am a fan of the old style clubs lofts and lies. 
I play 3 to PW, I can hit a 1 and a 2 iron but I find the 18 degree hybrid more versatile. 
Things like grips I grip my own clubs as it took me 10 mins to figure out how to do it after watching a video on the web and my Ping Eye2 irons I just regripped with a length of string under the grip down the back of the grip.

I find this helps at the top of the backswing as on round grips the hand shape leaves a gap and if the bottom 3 fingers are too loose it can cause a fat shot. 
Im off out now to hit the new (to me) 3 wood I just purchased and hopefully hit it well as if so it will shave a shot or two off my score.
		
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Obviously I don't know what availability is like where you are, but you can buy grips with the bulge built in. I think they call them ribbed.


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## 3565 (Aug 20, 2016)

Region3 said:



			Obviously I don't know what availability is like where you are, but you can buy grips with the bulge built in. I think they call them ribbed.
		
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Hell, he might discover that drivers are made out of metal instead of old fashioned persimmon now!!! :rofl:


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 21, 2016)

guest100718 said:



			25 pages and still going!
		
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Just wanna make sure you never need to splash out on a newspaper.
&#129299;&#129300;


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 21, 2016)

3565 said:



			Hell, he might discover that drivers are made out of metal instead of old fashioned persimmon now!!! :rofl:
		
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I hit my longest ever drive with a persimmon driver.
God it went miles when you hit it clean.
Don't ask about the 99% that were even a whisker off-centre.
&#128522;


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## Alucard (Aug 21, 2016)

3565 said:



			Hell, he might discover that drivers are made out of metal instead of old fashioned persimmon now!!! :rofl:
		
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Lol, I actually have a laminated driver a Ping Eye 2 that I practice with sometimes, its a red dot as it used to be my fathers club so not the right dot for me according to the fitting chart but I hit it well and straight but not as far as the TM R7 otherwise I would game it..

Golf is huge here in Portugal there are 35 Golf courses in the tiny Algarve region alone 6 of them Championship standard and the course maintenance is second to none.

No problem getting  equipment in Portugal  and anyway on the internet you can get anything. The ribbed grips were not quite what I wanted so I did my own like in the good old days, they feel better in the hands.

Most grips in the UK used to be like this back in the day, the round grips idea came from the USA.

Its really easy anyway and fun and I think everyone should be able to re-grip their own clubs to whatever thickness they want or even put grip reminders in them should they wish to. 

You just add tape wraps to thicken them or use one wrap as standard. Many put 2 or even 3 wraps on the short irons but use the 1 wrap on the long irons.
I chose midsize grips with 1 wrap for the full set.

I cut the old grips off and cleaned the club shaft then put my string in place down the back of the club shaft tagging it into place with the tape.  

Next I used white spirit to wipe over the tape and put a tee in the hole in the grip top to keep the fluid inside it.

I filled the grip with white spirit and then after a few seconds I emptied the white spirit back in the bottle and removed the tee from the grip hole.

 Then you will find that the grip will easily slide over the double sided sticky  tape and you can finish the final positioning and then leave the club to stand for a few hours so the white spirit evaporates and your good to go.

You can use air compressors too like in the pro shop but the white spirit is easy and cheap.


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## JakeWS (Aug 21, 2016)

I get fitted off my Pro I have lessons with, as I trust him and he will be the one teaching me to use the things, so that probably warrants his advice.

I just treated it like a free, very expensive lesson.


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## Hendy (Aug 21, 2016)

Imurg said:



			All I can say is that I've been for a fair few fittings down the years and all, ALL, my best rounds have been with non-fitted clubs either purchased new off the shelf or 2nd name from eBay/Golf bidder.....
		
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Same for me.


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## Robster59 (Aug 21, 2016)

At the end of the day, just go with what suits you.  Since I've had my new fitted clubs I've been playing more consistent golf.  The fitting cost me nothing, I got a discount on the irons and I genuinely feel more comfortable with them.  Surely that's all that matters.  If you achieve the same results with off the shelf clubs, that's great too.


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## pendodave (Aug 21, 2016)

If there's one thing that this thread proves, it is that there is a complete absence of any usable data, verified by a third party, about how effective particular clubs are. In 26 pages there isn't a single number that can be used to support or refute the various arguments. 

The whole industry seems to benefit from this state of affairs, but at the expense of all of us.

Luckily, golf isn't really that important, but it would be nice if there was some non-interested 3rd party producing numbers that were useful. The trouble is, as soon as there's a hint of a genuinely independent voice, they are immediately bought out by the golfing military-industrial complex (vis. advertising in mags and all the youtubers being made 'brand ambassadors' and provided with jollies etc).


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## Alucard (Aug 21, 2016)

pendodave said:



			If there's one thing that this thread proves, it is that there is a complete absence of any usable data, verified by a third party, about how effective particular clubs are. In 26 pages there isn't a single number that can be used to support or refute the various arguments. 

The whole industry seems to benefit from this state of affairs, but at the expense of all of us.

Luckily, golf isn't really that important, but it would be nice if there was some non-interested 3rd party producing numbers that were useful. The trouble is, as soon as there's a hint of a genuinely independent voice, they are immediately bought out by the golfing military-industrial complex (vis. advertising in mags and all the youtubers being made 'brand ambassadors' and provided with jollies etc).
		
Click to expand...

I agree with you but surely it is the ones that are claiming fitting is the only way to go that must prove that it is the holy grail as some claim. 

Proof is all over the web that Tall Pro tour golfers well over 6 feet tall  do NOT use massively upright lie angles 1 or 2 degrees tops and many use standard or even flatter lie angles. 
The era of the great ball strikers will show that lie angles are far flatter than the angles being fit for modern weekend golfers. The clubs are in Museums like say Ben Hogans etc and the proof is there.

Yet weekend hackers or newbies going for fittings are being fit into very upright lie angles to help them fight a slice and losing power in the smash factor, instead of being encouraged to work on their swing a little and being fit into a standard or even flatter lie that will be more versatile with swing mechanic changes.

Quick fix is never the best but if people want to spend their money on a fitting and they are happy with it then thats their choice but they may end up with clubs that will not allow them to develop their swing plane or attack angle.

I just do not agree with  the people that claim silly comparisons of golf clubs to fitted suits or adjustable car seats etc to try to force or endorse the fitting ideals on everyone, just because they chose that route and want to reinforce their own beliefs.


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## MadAdey (Aug 21, 2016)

I generally find the people that say you don't need to get fitted are normally 6' and under. I'm 6'3 with not particularly long arms for my size. If you check the ping chart, my wrist to floor measurement says I should be 6'6. 

Can I play with standard clubs? Of course I can, but it feels uncomfortable as I feel like I'm bending over too much and I get steep on my backswing.

The only reason I'm a big believer in getting fitted is to find the correct shaft. I got fitted earlier in the year and I have now changed from a TTDG X-100 to a C-Taper Tour 120g stiff. Thanks to that I'm hitting my irons far more consistent than I was. If I hadn't have got fitted I would not have chose that shaft......


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## Foxholer (Aug 21, 2016)

Alucard said:



			...
*Yet weekend hackers or newbies going for fittings are being fit into very upright lie angles*...
		
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Have you some evidence of this?



Alucard said:



			...]a standard or even flatter lie that will be more versatile with swing mechanic changes.
		
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or this?  

And please explain how 'a standard or even flatter lie that will be more versatile with swing mechanic changes'! It may be more *appropriate* - and swing changes would be a point where lie would be assessed - but versatile? Twaddle! I do note that you ARE suggesting that they are (or do) get fit though! 

The 'fitted suit' comparison *is* pretty appropriate! Not required; can add significantly to cost; can make a difference; is done purely on the current attributes - so if they change, then may need to be re-assessed!

Btw. What is this 'era of the great ball strikers'? There are plenty of great ball strikers around today - and there has been in every era!

Can you also provide evidence of claims that 'fitting is the only way to go' or 'that it is the holy grail as some claim.' I certainly haven't seen any realistic ones!

Bryson DuChambeau plays Cobras! He was gracious enough to let me swing his Edels a couple of years ago! He is an example of someone who MUST get fitted! But so was Moe Norman!


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## Alucard (Aug 21, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Have you some evidence of this?



or this?  

And please explain how 'a standard or even flatter lie that will be more versatile with swing mechanic changes'! It may be more *appropriate* - and swing changes would be a point where lie would be assessed - but versatile? Twaddle! I do note that you ARE suggesting that they are (or do) get fit though! 



The 'fitted suit' comparison *is* pretty appropriate! Not required; can add significantly to cost; can make a difference; is done purely on the current attributes - so if they change, then may need to be re-assessed!

Btw. What is this 'era of the great ball strikers'? There are plenty of great ball strikers around today - and there has been in every era!

Can you also provide evidence of claims that 'fitting is the only way to go' or 'that it is the holy grail as some claim.' I certainly haven't seen any realistic ones!

Bryson DuChambeau plays Cobras! He was gracious enough to let me swing his Edels a couple of years ago! He is an example of someone who MUST get fitted! But so was Moe Norman!
		
Click to expand...

There are people all over his thread going on about getting fit as the holy grail using stupid analogies about adjustable car seats and fitted suits, I laughed so hard my ribs hurt when I read them.

Whats with the silly girly yellow faces you keep adding to your posts????? it doesnt make them any more important you know, it would be better if you actually added some facts to them.
De Chambeau was playing Edel one length Irons same length as a 6 iron very recently , maybe he changed when he went pro.

Who cares who made the clubs lets not split hairs they are still same length clubs Cobra may be paying him more money to  use them than Edel can afford. 

Another Guy on tour Mat Dobyns (who plays right handed but puts left handed) at 5 feet 11 inches tall  is also playing one length irons and his are Titleist CB irons all 35.5 inch long including his wedges  and the lies are as very very flat  he had a club maker at Petes Golf add appropriate weight to the clubs.  

His clubs have weight added to the heads and are a totally different proposition to a normal fitting, he is a real talent unlike most weekend golfers.

Proof of golfers being fit into upright lies is all over the driving ranges and on the course if you dont walk around with your eyes shut. Proof of the lies of Pro Tour golfers and heights are all over the internet if you want to find them.

There are no real great ball strikers around today, like Nicklaus or Trevino or Hogan, Chi Chi Rodriguez  many modern tour pros cant even draw or fade the ball consistently when they really need to something that the great ball strikers of yesteryear could do in their sleep. 
Yet these modern day players have won majors. 

Dont  ask me to tell you who they are look and find out for yourself if your so interested. If you actually watch golf then you will know anyway.

Obviously a flatter lie is more versatile as it is not ridiculously loaded to be upright locking you into an un natural swing plane and flatter lies suit better golf swings, the Tour pros are using flatter lies its all over the internet if you dare look..

Anyway I finished with this thread because I have given you all the facts and they are all over the internet too so stop asking me to prove things that you can read for yourself. 
We could go on and on forever you can if you like  but i have better things to do.

For me personally I like the old clubs and the old lofts, I do not want to kid myself that I am hitting the ball further with a 7 iron that has a 9 stamped on it or having to fill my bag with wedges because the PW is 46 degrees or less or not carrying a 3 iron lol.
Each to their own, if you like fittings then good for you.


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## Foxholer (Aug 21, 2016)

Alucard said:



			..
Anyway I finished with this thread...
		
Click to expand...

:thup:


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## 3565 (Aug 21, 2016)

Alucard said:



			There are people all over his thread going on about getting fit as the holy grail using stupid analogies about adjustable car seats and fitted suits, I laughed so hard my ribs hurt when I read them.

Whats with the silly girly yellow faces you keep adding to your posts????? it doesnt make them any more important you know, it would be better if you actually added some facts to them.
De Chambeau was playing Edel one length Irons same length as a 6 iron very recently , maybe he changed when he went pro.

Who cares who made the clubs lets not split hairs they are still same length clubs Cobra may be paying him more money to  use them than Edel can afford. 

Another Guy on tour Mat Dobyns (who plays right handed but puts left handed) at 5 feet 11 inches tall  is also playing one length irons and his are Titleist CB irons all 35.5 inch long including his wedges  and the lies are as very very flat  he had a club maker at Petes Golf add appropriate weight to the clubs.  

His clubs have weight added to the heads and are a totally different proposition to a normal fitting, he is a real talent unlike most weekend golfers.

Proof of golfers being fit into upright lies is all over the driving ranges and on the course if you dont walk around with your eyes shut. Proof of the lies of Pro Tour golfers and heights are all over the internet if you want to find them.

There are no real great ball strikers around today, like Nicklaus or Trevino or Hogan, Chi Chi Rodriguez  many modern tour pros cant even draw or fade the ball consistently when they really need to something that the great ball strikers of yesteryear could do in their sleep. 
Yet these modern day players have won majors. 

Dont  ask me to tell you who they are look and find out for yourself if your so interested. If you actually watch golf then you will know anyway.

Obviously a flatter lie is more versatile as it is not ridiculously loaded to be upright locking you into an un natural swing plane and flatter lies suit better golf swings, the Tour pros are using flatter lies its all over the internet if you dare look..

Anyway I finished with this thread because I have given you all the facts and they are all over the internet too so stop asking me to prove things that you can read for yourself. 
*We could go on and on forever you can if you like  but i have better things to do.*

For me personally I like the old clubs and the old lofts, I do not want to kid myself that I am hitting the ball further with a 7 iron that has a 9 stamped on it or having to fill my bag with wedges because the PW is 46 degrees or less or not carrying a 3 iron lol.
Each to their own, if you like fittings then good for you.
		
Click to expand...

thank the Lord, after reading these posts about amateurs not really benefiting from custom fit clubs, whether it's lie angles, shaft lengths, shaft stiffness etc, I've decided to go buy oversized clothes and shoes cos fitted stuff just doesn't cut the mustard!


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 21, 2016)

Alucard said:



			There are people all over his thread going on about getting fit as the holy grail using stupid analogies about adjustable car seats and fitted suits. 

Obviously a flatter lie is more versatile as it is not ridiculously loaded to be upright locking you into an un natural swing plane and flatter lies suit better golf swings, the Tour pros are using flatter lies its all over the internet if you dare look..

Anyway I finished with this thread 
We could go on and on forever you can if you like  but i have better things to do.
		
Click to expand...

Disappointing as I'll now have to live without ever knowing how flatter lies would help my 6' 7" frame swing in a more versatile manner, but I'm sure I'll live, especially after reading the tosh about Lee Trevino's lie angles. 



Foxholer said:



			:thup: 

Click to expand...

+1 :thup:



3565 said:



			thank the Lord
		
Click to expand...

+1


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## ruff-driver (Aug 21, 2016)

Is it over ?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Aug 21, 2016)

pendodave said:



			If there's one thing that this thread proves, it is that there is a complete absence of any usable data, verified by a third party, about how effective particular clubs are. In 26 pages there isn't a single number that can be used to support or refute the various arguments. 

The whole industry seems to benefit from this state of affairs, but at the expense of all of us.

Luckily, golf isn't really that important, but it would be nice if there was some non-interested 3rd party producing numbers that were useful. The trouble is, as soon as there's a hint of a genuinely independent voice, they are immediately bought out by the golfing military-industrial complex (vis. advertising in mags and all the youtubers being made 'brand ambassadors' and provided with jollies etc).
		
Click to expand...

What would be useable data? I track every game on Game Golf, since being fitted for my latest Clubs in January I can show you my handicap has come down by nearly 2 strokes, my FIR's have improved, my GIR's have improved, accuracy to the flag has improved. 
I can then add I've played more, I've had lessons.
So was the fitting responsible bringing all this together? Would I have seen the same results with my previous clubs?
I can't be sure either way, what I will say, is that my bad shots I absolutely now blame myself as I am certainly more confident holding a Club that I believe is the best one for me at the moment.
It maybe the placebo effect but, as I was in the market for new clubs and the fitting came at no extra cost I took advantage.


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## woody69 (Aug 22, 2016)

I had a driver fitting at the weekend at Wentworth TaylorMade performance lab. Must say, I rather enjoyed it. Hit a few with my own driver to get a baseline, then started hitting different heads / shaft combinations between the M1 and M2. 

Ended up with a recommendation for M2 with 9.5' Diamana 60 S+ shaft at 45" length. The difference between that driver and my existing one was quite noticeable in terms of total distance (Avg 38 yards further (total)) and reduced spin rate (which is still far too high).


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## Foxholer (Aug 22, 2016)

woody69 said:



			I had a driver fitting at the weekend at Wentworth TaylorMade performance lab. Must say, I rather enjoyed it. Hit a few with my own driver to get a baseline, then started hitting different heads / shaft combinations between the M1 and M2. 

Ended up with a recommendation for M2 with 9.5' Diamana 60 S+ shaft at 45" length. The difference between that driver and my existing one was quite noticeable in terms of total distance (Avg 38 yards further (total)) and reduced spin rate (which is still far too high).
		
Click to expand...

Yikes! That's a massive difference!

What was your previous combo, that such an improvement was made?


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## woody69 (Aug 22, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			Yikes! That's a massive difference!

What was your previous combo, that such an improvement was made?
		
Click to expand...

PING G30 Regular (I think a TFC 419D) shaft. Length is 45" 3/4 and swing weight of D3.

Biggest difference was a drop in spin from avg of 5124 versus 3665 (which is still too high and down to my poor technique). Smash Factor was 1.30 (existing) v 1.41

Launch angle and swing speed remained consistent across all (around 10.5* and 95mph)


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 22, 2016)

woody69 said:



			Biggest difference was a drop in spin from avg of 5124 versus 3665 (which is still too high and down to my poor technique). Smash Factor was 1.30 (existing) v 1.41
		
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Yes indeed that is still way too high, somewhere around mid 2000's is ideal.

Have you tried moving the ball forward in your stance to encourage more of a sweeping type of impact?


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## bobmac (Aug 22, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Yes indeed that is still way too high, somewhere around mid 2000's is ideal.
		
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Would you think that mid 2000 spin rate would be better for a launch angle of 10 degrees and a swingspeed of 95mph?


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## Foxholer (Aug 22, 2016)

bobmac said:



			Would you think that mid 2000 spin rate would be better for a launch angle of 10 degrees and a swingspeed of 95mph?
		
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Yes!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 22, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Yes indeed that is still way too high, *somewhere around* mid 2000's is ideal.

Have you tried moving the ball forward in your stance to encourage more of a sweeping type of impact?
		
Click to expand...




bobmac said:



			Would you think that mid 2000 spin rate would be better for a launch angle of 10 degrees and a swingspeed of 95mph?
		
Click to expand...

No, the ideal spin rate for those conditions is 3163 rpm  :thup:


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## woody69 (Aug 22, 2016)

drive4show said:



			Yes indeed that is still way too high, somewhere around mid 2000's is ideal.

Have you tried moving the ball forward in your stance to encourage more of a sweeping type of impact?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I have. I also try and tilt away, but I'm still coming down on the ball. Fitter gave me a drill to try, which was nice of him, by putting head cover about a foot in front of the ball and to miss it. He had to go and get it off the range though, which was fun for him after I hit it about 10 yards


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## delc (Aug 22, 2016)

It is quite probably that standard length, standard lie, standard grip size clubs with regular flex shafts will be perfectly OK for about 70% of golfers, but what if you are in the other 30%?. I discovered that I needed 2 degree flat lies and slightly oversized grips about 20 years ago and my golf improved quite markedly after that. &#128526;


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## Foxholer (Aug 23, 2016)

delc said:



			It is quite probably that standard length, standard lie, standard grip size clubs with regular flex shafts will be perfectly OK for about 70% of golfers, but what if you are in the other 30%?. *I discovered that I needed 2 degree flat lies* and slightly oversized grips about 20 years ago and my golf improved quite markedly after that. &#128526;
		
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From the 'Swingplane thread'....



delc said:



			I have a rather flat swing plane with a tendency to be a bit in to out through the impact area. Problems with this are a tendency to hook the ball to the left or alternatively a push to the right. I also don't normally take divots, just brushing the grass at the bottom of the arc. *My pro is trying to get me to swing a bit more upright* with a more straight back take away, which feels miles outside the line to me!
		
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If that's the case, your 2 degree flat lies might not be helping the change to 'a bit more upright' - assuming that that also carries through to impact! It may be worth considering either doing some bending, or (maybe less destructively) finding a 'standard' club to use for lessons/grooving before committing to changing the set! I'd certainly suggest you discuss whether your existing setup is contributing to the difficulty of changing with your Pro! It's quite amazing how the brain/body actually adjust to whatever seems to work - which may not actually be what you want!


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## delc (Aug 23, 2016)

Foxholer said:



			From the 'Swingplane thread'....



If that's the case, your 2 degree flat lies might not be helping the change to 'a bit more upright' - assuming that that also carries through to impact! It may be worth considering either doing some bending, or (maybe less destructively) finding a 'standard' club to use for lessons/grooving before committing to changing the set! I'd certainly suggest you discuss whether your existing setup is contributing to the difficulty of changing with your Pro! It's quite amazing how the brain/body actually adjust to whatever seems to work - which may not actually be what you want!
		
Click to expand...

I'm a bit of an odd shape anyway, having rather short legs and a long back and arms relative to my height. Even as a static fit I come out as needing 1 degree flat lies. I did play with standard length and lie clubs for several years because bozo sales assistants at American Golf etc told me that they would be perfect for me. So it's not the case that I have adapted to the club's I have. However I kept turning shots over to the left due to the heel digging in if I caught the shot at all fat. I was also prone to shanking, as to catch the ball cleanly I had to hit the ball off the heel end of the club face. Getting clubs with the correct lie angle for me made a huge difference to my game!


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## HomerJSimpson (Aug 23, 2016)

Ping are coming to my club soon so I'm off to get my two degree upright clubs checked and see what they can do in terms of a new fitting. They've got trackman with them apparently so it'll be interesting to try the new I and I blade and while I've no illusion it'll be a full fitting let's see what they come up with


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## Foxholer (Aug 23, 2016)

woody69 said:



			I had a driver fitting at the weekend at Wentworth TaylorMade performance lab. Must say, I rather enjoyed it. Hit a few with my own driver to get a baseline, then started hitting different heads / shaft combinations between the M1 and M2. 

Ended up with a recommendation for M2 with 9.5' Diamana 60 S+ shaft at 45" length. The difference between that driver and my existing one was quite noticeable in terms of total distance (Avg 38 yards further (total)) and reduced spin rate *(which is still far too high)*.
		
Click to expand...

http://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/videos/driving-tips/avoid-creating-much-spin-driver


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## Foxholer (Aug 23, 2016)

delc said:



			...Getting clubs with the correct lie angle for me made a huge difference to my game!
		
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:thup:


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## MadAdey (Aug 23, 2016)

Here's something to consider. What is the height and wrist to floor measurement of people that think fitting is unnecessary. It would be interesting to see if people that do not believe in fitting are possibly the people that need it the least.


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## Backsticks (Aug 24, 2016)

delc said:



			It is quite probably that standard length, standard lie, standard grip size clubs with regular flex shafts will be perfectly OK for about 70% of golfers, but what if you are in the other 30%?. I discovered that I needed 2 degree flat lies and slightly oversized grips about 20 years ago and my golf improved quite markedly after that. &#128526;
		
Click to expand...

The percentages of 'non standard people' are debatable, but there has always been a case of a pro adapting clubs to the differently sized. Yes, the 5' or 6'8" man needs non standard clubs. But pros have always cut down, or lengthened clubs, or bent them a bit. Long before anyone ever heard the term 'club fitting', let alone it being a growing area of the game from cottage industry curio, to specialists with oodles of electronica, to every superstore and club pro claiming they offer it.
And it probably got away with it when it was under the radar and only for the really addicted.
That is not what is being questioned here really. The club fitting claim is that everyone, beginner, long term hacker, good player, bad player, normal shaped player, non-standard shaped player, etc, needs, or at worst can benefit from club fitting, is.
That there is a little sub industry in golf retail, that is borderline fraud, and an argument can easily be made as we have seen here, that there seems to be little substance to back up the gist of what it claims to offer, that it is taking advantage of people.
Yes, people can do what they like with their cash, and whatever helps them enjoy the game is fine. They may enjoy the process, golf tech banter and fancy gizmos spewing out numbers, and enjoy a confidence from knowing they have left no stone unturned in their search to play their best game. Fine. But that does not mean that it is not hocum. People enjoy going to psychics, and may feel they enjoy the process, and it helps give some purpose or confidence in decisions to be made of difficulties to be faced - but it is nevertheless a sham.


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 25, 2016)

Backsticks said:



			The percentages of 'non standard people' are debatable, but there has always been a case of a pro adapting clubs to the differently sized. Yes, the 5' or 6'8" man needs non standard clubs. But pros have always cut down, or lengthened clubs, or bent them a bit. Long before anyone ever heard the term 'club fitting', let alone it being a growing area of the game from cottage industry curio, to specialists with oodles of electronica, to every superstore and club pro claiming they offer it.
And it probably got away with it when it was under the radar and only for the really addicted.
That is not what is being questioned here really. The club fitting claim is that everyone, beginner, long term hacker, good player, bad player, normal shaped player, non-standard shaped player, etc, needs, or at worst can benefit from club fitting, is.
That there is a little sub industry in golf retail, that is borderline fraud, and an argument can easily be made as we have seen here, that there seems to be little substance to back up the gist of what it claims to offer, that it is taking advantage of people.
Yes, people can do what they like with their cash, and whatever helps them enjoy the game is fine. They may enjoy the process, golf tech banter and fancy gizmos spewing out numbers, and enjoy a confidence from knowing they have left no stone unturned in their search to play their best game. Fine. But that does not mean that it is not hocum. People enjoy going to psychics, and may feel they enjoy the process, and it helps give some purpose or confidence in decisions to be made of difficulties to be faced - but it is nevertheless a sham.
		
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Let's take this slowly...
You accept that pros have always found fitting helps their game.
You admit that is not what is being questioned. 
You then say that the fitting claim is that EVERY golfer can benefit from fitting. Which is incorrect. The claim is that pros use it to be the very best they can and it may work similarly for you. ( A VERY different claim, please note the difference)
You then call it hocum and a sham...
Having already agreed that it works.

I said it before. You are castigating a profession based on an inconsistent and incorrect definition.


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 25, 2016)

Backsticks said:



			That there is a little sub industry in golf retail, that is borderline fraud, and an argument can easily be made as we have seen here, that there seems to be little substance to back up the gist of what it claims to offer, that it is taking advantage of people.
		
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This paragraph is just borderline libel:
You claim fitting is fraud.- having already accepted its success over generations
You say an argument can easily be made, when you mean an unsubstantiated statement can easily be made.
You say there is little substance to back it up, other than the testimonials of top professionals and numerous fellow forumers.
And you end by saying it is taking advantage of people. Which the industry blatantly isn't. It is offering a service, which many people find helpful.

Please note the use of the word 'many'.

Now there may be practitioners within the industry who don't act in their clients best interest. But :
A) that is a totally different statement to saying the whole industry is fraud
B) you can find disingenuous people in every walk of life from doctors to roofers with estate agents somewhere in between.


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## Backsticks (Aug 25, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			Let's take this slowly...
You accept that pros have always found fitting helps their game.
		
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Sorry I wasnt clear enough. I didnt mean clubs helping their game, but I meant that club pros, when they were selling clubs to customers, have since the game began, gone with a bit of modification, a-la "gee, for a fella as tall as you, I will put and extra inch on the shafts for you". But that wasnt club fitting as the term is used today. It was a freak case.
So, in no case, saying that club fitting, as the term is used today, of electronic measurement, 'science', and fine modification of every parameter of the golf club and according to an individuals swing, works.


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## Backsticks (Aug 25, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			This paragraph is just borderline libel:
You claim fitting is fraud.- having already accepted its success over generations.
		
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Again, apologies for the misunderstanding, but it didnt mean to give the impressing that I accept that proposition.


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 25, 2016)

Backsticks said:



			Again, apologies for the misunderstanding, but it didnt mean to give the impressing that I accept that proposition.
		
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I like you...
You annoy the bejesus out of me.!
But I'm definitely beginning to like you.

&#128513;&#128513;


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## Sats (Aug 26, 2016)

Is damn thread still going?!


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## Foxholer (Aug 26, 2016)

Let it roll off the 'Recent Posts' list!

Alucad might not remember it after a short holiday and more Greek brandy! Or maybe Grasper Parsnip might remind him!


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## Oohmeoldbacksknackered (Aug 27, 2016)

I think the best way to kill a thread is to post an irrelevant comment about killing the thread thus bumping it.

&#128527;&#129300;&#128521;


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## bobmac (Aug 27, 2016)

Oohmeoldbacksknackered said:



			I think the best way to kill a thread is to post an irrelevant comment about killing the thread thus bumping it.

&#62991;&#63764;&#62985;
		
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Especially in the middle of the night when everyone else is asleep


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## Blue in Munich (Aug 27, 2016)

MadAdey said:



			Here's something to consider. What is the height and wrist to floor measurement of people that think fitting is unnecessary. It would be interesting to see if people that do not believe in fitting are possibly the people that need it the least.
		
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Well since you ask, 6' 6" and 40" wrist crease to floor, but apparently standard clubs will suit me perfectly well.  

Personally I'll stick with Ping's maroon dot & +1" assessment. :thup:


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## DRW (Aug 27, 2016)

I think they are good to an extent, if I had to play with my old driver, I would give up with the driver, whereas the new one I can hit.

I bet Johndee(OP) is laughing over this thread, how long is it


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## DCB (Aug 27, 2016)

Just nipping out to Tesco for some nuts and popcorn, anyone else want some &#128521;

This thread is turning into a classic &#128515;


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## MadAdey (Aug 27, 2016)

My point exactly. I'm 6'3 with a 37" wrist to floor. I'm a believer in getting fitted.


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## One Planer (Aug 27, 2016)

DCB said:



			Just nipping out to Tesco for some nuts and popcorn, anyone else want some &#128521;

This thread is turning into a classic &#128515;
		
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Salted for me please David :thup:


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## Backsticks (Aug 27, 2016)

But you will never enjoy them is you just specify 'salted'. Thats utter madness, and just leaves everthing to chance.

Does Tesco have your popcorn preference details ? Have you been assessed for your prefered strain of corn to be popped ? There are hundreds. If you just pick any one, you could choke on them, or find them disgusting. It all depends on your personal taste buds. After that, its all about the size, salt quantity (and salt type is not to be overlooked either: cracked cornish sea salt, mined Bavarian salt, Moroccan Meditteranean sun dried salt, etc - you cannot take a chance with something like that which could spoil your enjoyment completely), then, of course, the whole butter/no butter issue which I wont even get into or the thread will never end.

MadAdey, One Planer will be in touch when he has been for a popcorn fitting. You simply wont get maximum popcorn enjoyment unless that is all sorted first.


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