# in to out swing and high hands



## hovis (Aug 28, 2014)

I have a swing thats 6 degrees in to out (with a 7 iron) and I'm working on getting it more neutral.  I also have high hands at impact and was wondering if the two are linked.  I'd also like to add that the longer the club the higher my hands get.


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## the_coach (Aug 28, 2014)

hovis said:



			I have a swing thats 6 degrees in to out (with a 7 iron) and I'm working on getting it more neutral.  I also have high hands at impact and was wondering if the two are linked.  I'd also like to add that the longer the club the higher my hands get.
		
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yep. they can be for sure. out to in is oft times a good a ways too steep coming down into the ball, so the lowest point of the swing arc is a good ways trailside, before the club gets to the ball. 
So the player then has to react to this in some ways so as not to dump the club steeply into the ground first, so there has so be some ways to pull up to avoid the ground, usually it's a combination of losing the pelvic posture & straightening the body up plus also then that raises the arms & hands, which also really steepens the shaft angle from the angle it was at address, if viewed from behind.

This will also slow the amount of club head speed that could be developed by a swing more on plane & retaining posture angles, so the hands go through impact at a similar height they were at address & the shaft returns (viewed from behind) more in line to the address angle, that way you get the optimum club head speed for the swing motion.

Same is true of an in to out in a slightly different way which is coming in usually a good ways shallower with a lot of oft times lateral hip movement left so the arms get a ways stuck behind then they have to get thrown out away from the body so again collision of the club head with the ground first more likely, & has to be avoided by standing up bringing the arms & hands up & again steepens the shaft, & slows the club head speed down.


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## hovis (Aug 28, 2014)

the_coach said:



			out to in is oft times a good a ways too steep coming down into the ball,
		
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I'm currently swinging in to out!  Waaaaay in to out.  Is this what you ment


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Aug 28, 2014)

the_coach said:



			yep. they can be for sure. out to in is oft times a good a ways too steep coming down into the ball, so the lowest point of the swing arc is a good ways trailside, before the club gets to the ball. 
So the player then has to react to this in some ways so as not to dump the club steeply into the ground first, so there has so be some ways to pull up to avoid the ground, usually it's a combination of losing the pelvic posture & straightening the body up plus also then that raises the arms & hands, which also really steepens the shaft angle from the angle it was at address, if viewed from behind.

This will also slow the amount of club head speed that could be developed by a swing more on plane & retaining posture angles, so the hands go through impact at a similar height they were at address & the shaft returns (viewed from behind) more in line to the address angle, that way you get the optimum club head speed for the swing motion.

Same is tru of in to out which coming in usually shallower with a lot of oft times lateral hip movement left so the arms get a ways stuck thrown out away from the body so again collision with the ground more likely has to be avoided by standing up bringing the arms & hands up & again steepens the shaft, & slows the club head speed down.
		
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I'm sorry but this may as well be written in Chinese


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## the_coach (Aug 28, 2014)

hovis said:



			I'm currently swinging in to out!  Waaaaay in to out.  Is this what you ment
		
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no was doing both swing paths & hadn't quite finished post, have now.


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## hovis (Aug 28, 2014)

the_coach said:



			no was doing both swing paths & hadn't quite finished post, have now.
		
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So is it a case of sort out my club path and the problem will fix itself? I can get my hands lower at impact but i really have to force my hands into position.


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## the_coach (Aug 28, 2014)

drive4show said:



			I'm sorry but this may as well be written in Chinese  

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Ni hao.


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## the_coach (Aug 28, 2014)

hovis said:



			So is it a case of sort out my club path and the problem will fix itself? I can get my hands lower at impact but i really have to force my hands into position.
		
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Maybe sorting the path will help that may mean also looking at how you take the club back too, as what happens on the ways down to impact, is partly pre planned by how you take the club back. Could be that the club & right elbow at the top is more behind your back, then with lateral shift left arms club get stuck when this happens it often means too that the player has to keep too much weight on the trail leg in an effort to get club to ball. 
So swing direction coming from behind the right elbow a bit stuck behind, weight on right side, if you don't pull upwards in some ways you'll dump the club in the ground first.

So without seeing it can't really be specific. Do you with the longer end of the bag that's not off a tee, sometimes catch them a bit heavy, do you push a fair amount or hook?

May also be that the arm swing is a little ways disconnected from the body turn.


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## hovis (Aug 28, 2014)

Im turning over my short irons and hitting a mixture of blocks and snap hooks with my longer stuff.  As for contact. Its always thin and toey.  Ill see if i can get a video up


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## JustOne (Aug 28, 2014)

hovis said:



			I have a swing thats 6 degrees in to out (with a 7 iron) and I'm working on getting it more neutral.  I also have high hands at impact and was wondering if the two are linked.  I'd also like to add that the longer the club the higher my hands get.
		
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Might give you an idea of how parts of the swing work together to get the club on the ball....

[video=youtube;jUQmjdywsio]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUQmjdywsio[/video]


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## hovis (Aug 28, 2014)

Just a snap shot


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## the_coach (Aug 28, 2014)

From what you can see from that still & angle, right elbow more above the right hip arms pretty good shape in front of the body, so nothing that screams there. Bit blurry but left forearm & leading edge of club at top look in good shape, not closed at the top.

So what ever is happening occurs in the movement & sequence of movement from here.

Do you feel you may slide a good way left with the hips, & also lose that pelvic angle we see here, &/or leave too much weight on the right side from here?

One thing from what you describe with the shot results that you sometimes get, somewhere from this position you are gaining some vertical height. 
Often this because too much weight still on the right side as you come down, so the hips come forwards & upwards a little to stop the clubhead scuffing the ground first. (as JustOne eluded to in the EE comment) 
This often means the arms too get a little disconnected as they too raise upwards.

The reason will be in the motion as you get to the top & what exactly happens as you start down.


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## Foxholer (Aug 28, 2014)

It could be worthwhile using the equivalent of Bob's headcover drill (in reverse) but with something like tees rather than headcovers.

If the errant path is corrected, it's highly likely that the associated 'faults' like high hands will simply disappear as the sub/unconscious brain realises it doesn't need to 'correct' and/or that a better connection happens when they are lower. Much better to find a drill that fixes everything 'naturally' than making deliberate individual changes.

Does seem like you are 'getting stuck' though.


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## hovis (Aug 28, 2014)

What kills me the most is 6 months ago i was 3 degree's out to in!!!!!!  I will never moan about playing a fade again.

Thanks for taking the time coach


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## hovis (Aug 28, 2014)

Foxholer said:



			It could be worthwhile using the equivalent of Bob's headcover drill (in reverse) but with something like tees rather than headcovers.

If the errant path is corrected, it's highly likely that the associated 'faults' like high hands will simply disappear as the sub/unconscious brain realises it doesn't need to 'correct' and/or that a better connection happens when they are lower. Much better to find a drill that fixes everything 'naturally' than making deliberate individual changes.

Does seem like you are 'getting stuck' though.
		
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I have hit over 5000 balls with a gate and head cover drill and about 2000 balls with a shoe box in between me and the ball.
  Nothing works.  I definitely get the feeling there's a root cause and by the time i start down its too late.  Booked in with a new pro next weeks so fingers crossed


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## the_coach (Aug 28, 2014)

Your welcome, good luck.

One other thing the high hands do is tilt the club face so the heels high, toe down, toe end of the club the only part that can get to the ball.


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## JustOne (Aug 28, 2014)

Who/what is giving you these readings?

What is your AoA?

FWIW I don't happen to think 6 degrees is bad with a 7-iron unless you are trying to zero out your path and hit all balls dead straight.




added: http://www.golfwrx.com/139927/swing-path-problems-and-how-to-fix-them/



			Can a golfer play with a swing path that is 6 degrees in-to-out? Sure, if the face is consistently 2 degrees closed to that path.
		
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## hovis (Aug 28, 2014)

JustOne said:



			Who/what is giving you these readings?

What is your AoA?

FWIW I don't happen to think 6 degrees is bad with a 7-iron unless you are trying to zero out your path and hit all balls dead straight.
		
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What's aoa buddy?

Getting my info from track man and flight scope.  The pro i was seeing said ideal is no more than 2 degrees either way.  I just want to hit it straight.  The blocks aren't that bad but blimey when they're left, they're left!!!!!

It isn't much fun hitting 20 yard right to lefters from a 80 yard sand wedge


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## the_coach (Aug 28, 2014)

the angle of attack (downwards or upwards) the club head is traveling to the ball on on the vertical plane, also has bearing on where the low point of the swing arc is in relation to ball position.


http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/sh...-angle-more-manages-your-swing-path-direction


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## JustOne (Aug 28, 2014)

hovis said:



			What's aoa buddy?

Getting my info from track man and flight scope.  The pro i was seeing said ideal is no more than 2 degrees either way.  I just want to hit it straight.  The blocks aren't that bad but blimey when they're left, they're left!!!!!

It isn't much fun hitting 20 yard right to lefters from a 80 yard sand wedge
		
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AoA is 'angle of attack'

*If you want to hit a 7-iron straight* you have to be aimed a few degrees LEFT, the angle of descent (with a 7-iron) will then make your ACTUAL PATH straight.

Here's a vid about something called the D-Plane.

Aiming square, having a square clubface and swinging perfectly down the line does NOT work to hit a striaght shot unless you have NO angle of descent into impact. It's something worth trying to understand if you are trying to learn to zero your path or if you happen to be splitting hairs about swinging 6 degrees out on a golf forum 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sIQ-7DJJbU


added: the thing with all flight monitors is they don't actually KNOW where you're aiming when you make your swing... you might already be aiming 3 degrees right before you even swing :thup:


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## hovis (Aug 28, 2014)

the_coach said:



			the angle of attack (downwards or upwards) the club head is traveling to the ball on on the vertical plane.
		
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Not sure what it was but ill check


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## the_coach (Aug 28, 2014)

hovis said:



			Not sure what it was but ill check
		
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http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/sh...-angle-more-manages-your-swing-path-direction


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## JustOne (Aug 28, 2014)

FWIW: Rory McIlroy swing out at approx 10Â° with his driver, however, because he swings UP into the ball his actual path is about 6Â½Â°

Also interesting to note that in the past 4yrs he's added 10mph to his swing speed :angry:


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## the_coach (Aug 28, 2014)

hovis said:



			Just a snap shot
		
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If having problems loading a vid, do you have a still frame of impact that will post up?


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## hovis (Aug 29, 2014)

the_coach said:



			If having problems loading a vid, do you have a still frame of impact that will post up?
		
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The red line is the original shaft line. This is a 9 iron btw


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## JustOne (Aug 29, 2014)

Perfectly normal... just take a look at Ernie Els swing. The hands returning exactly to the shaft plane is not a common thing, it happens with some players but not many, normally they are swinging left (for example someone like Manassero might return hands to the shaft plane - can't say I've ever watched his swing though).


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## the_coach (Aug 29, 2014)

hovis said:



			The red line is the original shaft line. This is a 9 iron btw
		
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Nope hands aren't over high here at all club shaft at a reasonable enough vertical angle. Not really lost your posture any, pelvic angle still in reasonable shape.

Always dangerous to comment about movement on a static frame, but the weight still does look to be too much on the right side, right foot still very flat here, ideally you'd expect given where the shaft & club head have got to, at more or less impact that the right foot right ankle would have rolled onto the inside of the right foot more so the whole of the outside right foot here would have already started to show it was peeling up & had left the ground some.
As said difficult given it's a still frame but would have expected this movement to be a little further progressed here.

So think the issue here is both weight transference & swing path (although youve given in to out path number & 6Âº not hugely excessive on it's own) but given that this is a 9i given your target line looking at the foot line & shoulder line the swing direction - refers to the par of the swing below waist height - you can see here it's a good ways out to the right.

So somewhere in that last piece of movement to the top the direction of it has set in place, that it has the appearance you must be coming down & getting a little stuck behind with the weight very much on the right trail side, from here you do a real good job of being able to stay in posture as thats not that easy given where the weight seems to be & as said before the hands too not really high so it really steepens the shaft into impact either.

Motion rather than stills would be more reliable, as easier to see what's exactly happening then, but weight into left side sooner & a feeling that you are swinging both down & slightly left would be a help. But the weight right is making the shaft a deal flatter as it travels down so from the inside exiting way too much to the right.

Will look for a couple of drills I have somewhere that would be worth you doing, but at first swing only at 60Âº max as they won't be that easy for you to do.

Got to feel you're swinging down more on top of the ball & the club is exiting left through impact.


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## the_coach (Aug 29, 2014)

Using 2 bottles here but if you're at the range you can use to upside down plastic range baskets, better for this if they are the round ones, just place one outside the right foot so the edge nearest the target line is where the bottle is.

Instead of the bottle the other side of the ball obviously you can again use a basket, but if the range has a golfshop, if you can get a cardboard long thin box that a single/few clubs would come in that's even better.
As it gives you a whole longer length you have to avoid, you place it about an inch away other side of the ball & parallel to the target line, ball around mid box, so same distance of box before ball & after.

But preferably use an upside down basket or a bottle in the position near the right foot as you need the height here to effect a change, headcover not really tall enough given what you are doing in the swing motion.

[video=youtube_share;JDKeDwYQXdw]http://youtu.be/JDKeDwYQXdw[/video]


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## the_coach (Aug 29, 2014)

Also if you have a smash bag at your home you can use that, again slower swings so start with as it can be a little bit intimidating, given where you have to place it.

[video=youtube_share;SUAsYj9mslU]http://youtu.be/SUAsYj9mslU[/video]


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## the_coach (Aug 29, 2014)

The more from the inside with the weight on the right side the swing is your also going to get much more face rotation over a small distance approaching & through impact so easy to get miss-contacts, even though the numbers say in from 6Âº if you can neutralize the swing path, approach & exit, there won't be as much face angle rotation so a deal easier to both get to square & find center through impact on a consistent basis.


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