# Slope Rating



## Radar1981 (Oct 11, 2019)

Have UK Golf Club slope ratings been published yet? If so where can I see them?


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## yandabrown (Oct 11, 2019)

https://ncrdb.usga.org/NCRDB/NCRListing.aspx


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## rosecott (Oct 11, 2019)

yandabrown said:



https://ncrdb.usga.org/NCRDB/NCRListing.aspx

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I think the OP may be in the UK.


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## yandabrown (Oct 11, 2019)

rosecott said:



			I think the OP may be in the UK.
		
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They have my club on there (in the UK), granted just the red tees so far. There are many other UK ones too. I guess if this is part of WHS then you need to be able to find all clubs all over the world?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 11, 2019)

We were measured in April and we are on the link, all tees, all colours.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Oct 11, 2019)

rosecott said:



			I think the OP may be in the UK.
		
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Link covers UK Courses Jim, donâ€™t know when or how it is updated.
See my post above.
Prior to April it only showed our Red Tees for some reason.


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## 2blue (Oct 11, 2019)

Yeah...  our place is on there


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 12, 2019)

Just fallen for the obvious trap and started to compare our course with others regarding who has the higher slope rating. Doh!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 12, 2019)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Just fallen for the obvious trap and started to compare our course with others regarding who has the higher slope rating. Doh!
		
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Whatâ€™s wrong with doing that? Or are comparisons meaningless?


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## rulefan (Oct 12, 2019)

Slope means nothing unless you have the Course Rating also.

Course Rating simply tells you the difficulty of those tees for a scratch player. (The equivalent of SSS)

Slope indicates the *relative* difficulty of those tees for a bogey player compared to the scratch player.
It does not compare one set of tees with another nor one course with another.

It does not mean that a 130 slope is more difficult than a 125 slope.


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## rulefan (Oct 12, 2019)

rosecott said:



			I think the OP may be in the UK.
		
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To find a UK club just enter the club name. Nothing else.

Most UK clubs have the ladies' tees entered as they have been rated for many years using the USGA system.
Most men's tees have now been done but it seems EG are a bit slow getting them on. If your club is not on and has been rated contact EG. Although it seems tat other GB&I countries have courses missing


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 12, 2019)

rulefan said:



			Slope means nothing unless you have the Course Rating also.

Course Rating simply tells you the difficulty of those tees for a scratch player. (The equivalent of SSS)

Slope indicates the *relative* difficulty of those tees for a bogey player compared to the scratch player.
It does not compare one set of tees with another nor one course with another.

It does not mean that a 130 slope is more difficult than a 125 slope.
		
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Exactly - but I'm sure people will be saying "why is that course a higher slope than this one"

I would be interested to see an analysis of SSS vs CSS for some courses. I bet for some coastal courses where weather is a common factor the proportion of increased CSS vs SSS is much higher than the norm.


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## duncan mackie (Oct 12, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whatâ€™s wrong with doing that? Or are comparisons meaningless?
		
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I've of the view that they are not meaningless - but they only show one specific aspect of the tee rating.  The higher the slope rating the greater the difference between any handicap golfers allowance from those tees relative to a scratch golfer.

That's clearly not meaningless information; however it's not the measure that many attribute to it, as Rulefan has explained.


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## rulefan (Oct 12, 2019)

mikejohnchapman said:



			1) "why is that course a higher slope than this one"

2)I bet for some coastal courses where weather is a common factor the proportion of increased CSS vs SSS is much higher than the norm.
		
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1) Because it is relatively more difficult for the higher handicap player is the simple answer.

2) The Playing Conditions Calculation (PCC) does pretty well the same job. But then the Course Rating has an element taking account of 'normal' prevailing weather conditions for the course.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Oct 12, 2019)

rulefan said:



			1) Because it is relatively more difficult for the higher handicap player is the simple answer.

2) The Playing Conditions Calculation (PCC) does pretty well the same job. But then the Course Rating has an element taking account of 'normal' prevailing weather conditions for the course.
		
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I'm interested in how the course rating takes account of 'normal' prevailing weather conditions. 

Does this involve several visits over a period of time?


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 12, 2019)

saving_par said:



			I'm interested in how the course rating takes account of 'normal' prevailing weather conditions.

Does this involve several visits over a period of time?
		
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No - 1 visit usually and assessed against normal summer playing conditions.


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 12, 2019)

rulefan said:



			2) The Playing Conditions Calculation (PCC) does pretty well the same job. But then the Course Rating has an element taking account of 'normal' prevailing weather conditions for the course.
		
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For handicap purposes maybe - depends on the formula they use. The briefing I went to suggested it would only kick-in approx 20% of the time.

Doesn't impact matchplay or possibly any strokeplay competitions though as the playing handicaps based on index & slope will determin the number used for the comp.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Oct 12, 2019)

mikejohnchapman said:



			No - 1 visit usually and assessed against normal summer playing conditions.
		
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But what is normal summer playing conditions?

For example, the assessor visits on a rare flat calm day at my track when the reality is 90% of the time you have to factor in between 1 and 3 club wind.


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## rulefan (Oct 12, 2019)

The rating team discuss the prevailing conditions with the course management. They rating teams are all local (ie within the county) so it is likely they will have "local knowledge" and experience. It is not based on "what is it like today or this week".
In the same way, green mowing height, rough cut height are based on greenkeepers' records not on "how long is it today"


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## Deleted member 3432 (Oct 12, 2019)

rulefan said:



			The rating team discuss the prevailing conditions with the course management. They rating teams are all local (ie within the county) so it is likely they will have "local knowledge" and experience. It is not based on "what is it like today or this week".
In the same way, green mowing height, rough cut height are based on greenkeepers' records not on "how long is it today"
		
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Ok cheers, that seems like a common sense approach.


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## Radar1981 (Oct 13, 2019)

Thank you for the links and comments folks.


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## rulefan (Oct 13, 2019)

mikejohnchapman said:



			For handicap purposes maybe - depends on the formula they use. The briefing I went to suggested it would only kick-in approx 20% of the time.

Doesn't impact matchplay or possibly any strokeplay competitions though as the playing handicaps based on index & slope will determin the number used for the comp.
		
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I reckon that the CSS varies from the SSS rather less frequently than that over the normal playing season.
Why do you suggest PCC won't affect strokeplay comps? It is designed for that purpose. It uses all legitimate scores recorded on that day


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## 2blue (Oct 14, 2019)

Radar1981 said:



			Thank you for the links and comments folks.
		
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Fully agree & thanks. 
However there is still one area that I am struggling to get my head around & that is how 'parity' occurs when players from different clubs, having the same, say 11.0 Index play against each other on each other's course on the 'match' tees...  eg.
My Club's tee is rated 71.0 slope 126 = 12.3 playing H/cap  (Playing H/Cap = Index x (Slope of tee / 113)
Their tee is rated 73.1 slope 142 = 13.8 playing H/cap
So it would appear to me that they have gained their 11 H/cap on a more difficult course so it should be approx 2 shots 'stronger' than mine.
However when we play against each other on either course our 11 Index will provide identical Playing H/caps despite the differences just mentioned.
Is what I'm missing blindingly obvious, or have I got something wrong?


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## rulefan (Oct 14, 2019)

​


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## 2blue (Oct 14, 2019)

rulefan said:



​

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Speechless??


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 14, 2019)

What's the 'bogey player' - I guess at _someone who plays each hole one over par_?


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## Foxholer (Oct 14, 2019)

2blue said:



			Fully agree & thanks.
However there is still one area that I am struggling to get my head around & that is how 'parity' occurs when players from different clubs, having the same, say 11.0 Index play against each other on each other's course on the 'match' tees...  eg.
My Club's tee is rated 71.0 slope 126 = 12.3 playing H/cap  (Playing H/Cap = Index x (Slope of tee / 113)
Their tee is rated 73.1 slope 142 = 13.8 playing H/cap
So it would appear to me that they have gained their 11 H/cap on a more difficult course so it should be approx 2 shots 'stronger' than mine.
However when we play against each other on either course our 11 Index will provide identical Playing H/caps despite the differences just mentioned.
*Is what I'm missing blindingly obvious, or have I got something wrong?*

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Indeed you have! They have an *Index *obtained on a harder course, not a *Handicap*! Him (or you) shooting 87 on his course is equivalent to shooting 84 on yours (decimals ignored for simplicity).


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## rulefan (Oct 14, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What's the 'bogey player' - I guess at _someone who plays each hole one over par_?
		
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It is defined as
_ A player with a Handicap Index of approximately 20.0 for men and approximately 24.0 for women._


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## rulefan (Oct 14, 2019)

2blue said:



			Speechless??
		
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At the time, yes.
I was trying to explain the response to you but had to answer a phone call and accidentally deleted the text.

But the key lies in the calculation of Score Differential where the (Slope/113) is reversed to (113/Slope). Score Differential being the figure used in calculating the Index.


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## 2blue (Oct 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed you have! They have an *Index *obtained on a harder course, not a *Handicap*! Him (or you) shooting 87 on his course is equivalent to shooting 84 on yours (decimals ignored for simplicity).
		
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So if they have the same index as me but that is 2 shots stronger....  how can it be right that we're both playing off the same when he comes to ours..... he's going to have 2 shots advantage immediately, surely


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## Foxholer (Oct 14, 2019)

2blue said:



			So if they have the same index as me *but that is 2 shots stronger*....  how can it be right that we're both playing off the same when he comes to ours..... he's going to have 2 shots advantage immediately, surely
		
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What do you man be the bold phrase?

Assuming you actually mean the difference between Course Rating, it's no different to existing Handicap should you play (both of, say, 11 with SSSs as per Course Rating) in a comp at each other's course. Playing to handicap would be 84-86 at his and 82-84 at yours (if CSS=SSS).


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## upsidedown (Oct 14, 2019)

2blue said:



			So if they have the same index as me but that is 2 shots stronger....  how can it be right that we're both playing off the same when he comes to ours..... he's going to have 2 shots advantage immediately, surely
		
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As I understand it within the mechanism that works out your index , irrespective of the "hardness" of the course where the qualifying score was , all scores go back to  a rating of 113

FRom EG  If there is a high slope rating at the competition club and I play at a course with a low slope rating, could the difference be considerable. Your handicap will change depending on the slope rating of the course: but this is done against a slope rating of 113


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## 2blue (Oct 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			What do you man be the bold phrase?

Assuming you actually mean the difference between Course Rating, it's no different to existing Handicap should you play (both of, say, 11 with SSSs as per Course Rating) in a comp at each other's course. Playing to handicap would be 84-86 at his and 82-84 at yours (if CSS=SSS).
		
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It seems to me that if he attains the same Index as me from a harder course I'd expect that he has an advantage as we'd both have the same Playing H/cap when at the same course, wouldn't we?


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## louise_a (Oct 14, 2019)

imagine you average 12 over your course rating, your clubs slope is 120, so that would give you a handicap index (against a slope of 113) of 11.3, now imagine another player who averages 12 over on a course with a slope rating of 130, he would have a handicap index of 10.4.
So when you play at his course your handicap would be 13, whereas if he played at yours his handicap would 11.
Hope that makes sense


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## duncan mackie (Oct 14, 2019)

2blue said:



			It seems to me that if he attains the same Index as me from a harder course I'd expect that he has an advantage as we'd both have the same Playing H/cap when at the same course, wouldn't we?
		
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Basically yes, but....the harder course aspect is designed to drop out from the rating factor (for scr golfers) and to a degree the bogey index elements reflected in slope.
Practically, you can never fully remove the advantage that any player based at a harder course will have over one based on a simple course - you can only do what's being done.
However it's wrong to term this as a stronger handicap - Its more about stronger underlying capabilities. These are usually associated with long game but can also be around extreme short game elements.


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## rulefan (Oct 14, 2019)

upsidedown said:



			As I understand it within the mechanism that works out your index , irrespective of the "hardness" of the course where the qualifying score was , all scores go back to  a rating of 113

FRom EG  If there is a high slope rating at the competition club and I play at a course with a low slope rating, could the difference be considerable. Your handicap will change depending on the slope rating of the course: but this is done against a slope rating of 113
		
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This is where what I said previously comes in
_But the key lies in the calculation of Score Differential where the (Slope/113) is reversed to (113/Slope). Score Differential being the figure used in calculating the Index.
_
Handicap Index is based on differentials as if played on an average rated course of 113 slope. Not on the differential at the course (tees) actually played.


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## Foxholer (Oct 14, 2019)

2blue said:



			It seems to me that if he attains the same Index as me from a harder course I'd expect that he has an advantage as we'd both have the same Playing H/cap when at the same course, wouldn't we?
		
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That's the entire point of Slope (and Handicap, though that may/may not be the case)!

Remember if his Index is same as yours (say 11) If the Slope 'assumptions' are correct - and that's been pretty much proven by statistics to be so - he'd be 'expected' to have a (Current system) handicap of 13-14 at his course - something I've found myself, as my handicap (maintained at courses where SSS has always been > Par) travels well to courses where SSS is Par minus 1.


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## rulefan (Oct 14, 2019)

Foxholer said:



			That's the entire point of Slope (and Handicap, though that may/may not be the case)!

Remember if his Index is same as yours (say 11) If the Slope 'assumptions' are correct - and that's been pretty much proven by statistics to be so - he'd be 'expected' to have a (Current system) handicap of 13-14 at his course - something I've found myself, as my handicap (maintained at courses where SSS has always been > Par) travels well to courses where SSS is Par minus 1.
		
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In this respect CONGU is not the same as WHS. CONGU does not alter the handicap to suit the relative course difficulty as there is no slope.

With WHS, the player's course handicap is modified by* multiplying by (Slope/113) *before play.
WHS takes the differential of a round (ie basically difference between score and course rating) and normalises it back to to a course of rating 113.  The differential is the Gross score *multiplied by (113/Slope) *after play.


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## 2blue (Oct 14, 2019)

louise_a said:



			imagine you average 12 over your course rating, your clubs slope is 120, so that would give you a handicap index (against a slope of 113) of 11.3, now imagine another player who averages 12 over on a course with a slope rating of 130, he would have a handicap index of 10.4.
So when you play at his course your handicap would be 13, whereas if he played at yours his handicap would 11.
Hope that makes sense
		
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Ah....  can start to get my head around this example... thanks.


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## IanMcC (Oct 15, 2019)

Like a lot of people, I am still slightly confused by the upcoming handicapping system. Can one of the experts on here put me straight, if I have missed something, please.

My course is Rhuddlan, in North Wales. Off of the white tees, it has a Course rating of 72.2, and a slope rating of 129.

Lets assume a man with a handicap index of 10 shoots a gross 81, with nothing above a double bogey included and no adverse conditions.

I believe the calculations have to be like this:

1. Obtain the Course Handicap. This will be handicap index x slope/113. or, 10 x 129/113 = 11.416, which will play to 11 shots.
2. Obtain the Gross Differential. This will be the adjusted gross score (gross after any Stableford or Condition adjustments) minus the Course Rating, or 81-72.2-0 = 8.8.
3. De-slope the Gross Differential. This will be the GD x 113/slope, or 8.8 x 113/129 = 7.708

So a figure of 7.708 would be stored in the players history, to be compared with the previous 19 rounds, and used for the best 8 calculation to obtain a new Handicap Index.

If this is all correct, which it probably isn't, how much of this will a M&H Secretary be expected to compute when checking cards after a comp. I am assuming practically none. The player will work out his own Course Handicap from a pre-printed sheet in the clubhouse, just like slope ratings abroad at the moment. I then assume that the software will perform tasks 2 and 3 above, as well as determining any Condition Adjustments required. 

Is all of this correct?


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## rulefan (Oct 15, 2019)

IMO, you have got it.
That's how I read it but I think the 7.708 is rounded to 7.7.


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## IanMcC (Oct 15, 2019)

Great. Thats a better answer than I expected. According to the website listed above, we were rated in 2017. I know you are not affiliated to the GUW, but do you think we will be rated again in light of the WHS, or will that rating stand? Course has not really changed, apart from losing 3 or 4 bunkers.


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## rulefan (Oct 15, 2019)

IanMcC said:



			Great. Thats a better answer than I expected. According to the website listed above, we were rated in 2017. I know you are not affiliated to the GUW, but do you think we will be rated again in light of the WHS, or will that rating stand? Course has not really changed, apart from losing 3 or 4 bunkers.
		
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My understanding is that all courses in GB&I except the England men's tees have been rated under the USGA system (now adopted as the WHS standard) for some years. England men's are something over 3/4 through rating. Your rating should stand unless major changes have been made to the course.

Enter your club name (only) here and you can see your club's details. 

https://ncrdb.usga.org/NCRDB/NCRListing.aspx


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 16, 2019)

rulefan said:



			I reckon that the CSS varies from the SSS rather less frequently than that over the normal playing season.
Why do you suggest PCC won't affect strokeplay comps? It is designed for that purpose. It uses all legitimate scores recorded on that day
		
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You may be right re CSS vs SSS but I would like to see the evidence as we frequently see differences.

As far as strokeplay comps are concerned I assumed that having derived the playing handicap for the course / tee played then the lowest score (Nett) for those entered would win. I thought any subsequent adjustment regarding the conditions of play would apply to handicap calculations rather than the competition itself.

Perhaps I have misunderstood the adjustment - I thought it adjusted par (upwards) if all the acceptable rounds on the day triggered the change due to the conditions, presumable making it more difficult to score. 

I also presumed this would be more common on courses where variations in weather was a more frequent occurance - eg a coastal course vs inland. As prevailing weather is not a factor in assessing the courses then I would expect some to have significantly more adjustments than others.


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## rulefan (Oct 16, 2019)

As I understand it, PCC is only applied for handicap record calculations not competition scores. The players' Score Differentials are reduced. It doesn't affect par.

Normal prevailing weather is taken in to account when courses are rated. See post #19 onwards.


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## rulefan (Oct 16, 2019)

mikejohnchapman said:



			For handicap purposes maybe - depends on the formula they use. The briefing I went to suggested it would only kick-in approx 20% of the time.

Doesn't impact matchplay or possibly any strokeplay competitions though as the playing handicaps based on index & slope will determine the number used for the comp.
		
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Neither PCC nor CSS affect competition or match results. They are only used for post round handicap (Index or Exact) adjustments


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