# slope and how its worked out and comp to SSS



## patricks148 (Jan 2, 2020)

i was under the impression slope was a guide to course difficulty.

my home course is par 71 SSS 74 with a slope of 137

Fish posted his course the other day which is shorter, par 73, SSS 72 and yet the slope is 139

am i missing something ?


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## NWJocko (Jan 2, 2020)

Slope is only providing the relative difficulty of a course between a scratch golfer and a bogey golfer.

Course Rating is equivalent to SSS so a scratch golfer is expected to score 74 (or +3 to par) at Nairn and 72 (or -1 to par) at the other course.

I don't know the criteria but the difficulty of the course for a scratch and bogey golfer is ascertained which gives you the slope.  I'm no expert on what these criteria are, could be that the other course has water about/carries off tees that a bogey golfer would find more difficult than at Nairn etc (that's only an example off the top of my head, sure they will be documented somewhere).


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## rulefan (Jan 2, 2020)

As said Slope is simply an indication of the relative difficulty of a particular course (ie set of tees) for a bogey player (20 ish handicap) as opposed to a scratch player.

When a course (ie set of tees) is rated, two sets of measurements and positions of obstacles are taken into account.
The first are for a 'model' scratch player, which after calculations produces the Course Rating (almost equivalent to SSS). The second for a 'model' bogey player. The Bogey Rating.
Neither figure is related to par but simply indicates how many strokes that type of player is expected to take from those tees.
A theoretical line is drawn on a graph between the two ratings and this is the Slope. 
A player will have a 'base' handicap index (derived from the average of the best 8 of the last 20 rounds) and will convert that to his Course Handicap by using the slope.

The first course is more difficult than the second for a scratch player. CR of 74 v CR of 72

The second course is* 'relatively'* slightly more difficult for a higher capper vs a scratch player (Slope 139) player than the first (Slope 137)

*NB Par is irrelevant in this context*


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## Imurg (Jan 2, 2020)

Can I say that it's a good job that we dont really need to understand  all the intricacies of the system as it will all be done, effectively, for us as it bursts my brain every time I try and get my head around it......


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 2, 2020)

My understanding of how slope works...

So taking the bogey player scoring to an extreme.  Imagine a course of all 'par' fours - each of a length that requires the bogey player to hit a good drive to be able to reach in two. However, consider that there was water to clear on every hole and clearing that water was very difficult for the bogey golfer (but of no concern whatsoever for the scratch player).  The bogey player's score will be significantly impacted by the water - the scratch players won't.  It is quite possible that the bogey player will lay up on all holes - and on many holes won't have any chance of reaching in two - and so 5 will become his 'target' score on most holes.

Imagine our bogey player playing off 18.  Now on my hypothetical course 18 over is going to be about as good as he can possibly score.  But he won't - he'll most likely score considerably more than 18 over.  So on this hypothetical course our bogey player won't be looking to play round in 18 over - he'd be expected to play his normal game to a score a good bit over 18 shots dropped - simply because of the level of hazard presented to him on every hole.

And it is that level of 'hazard' that will determine the assessed likely score for the bogey player, and hence the 'slope' for the course when differenced with the scratch player's probable 72 and factored up to give slope - and that slope will tell all players what their target score for that course should be - and his handicap for that course.

Well that's how I see it.


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## Imurg (Jan 2, 2020)




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## rosecott (Jan 2, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Can I say that it's a good job that we dont really need to understand  all the intricacies of the system as it will all be done, effectively, for us as it bursts my brain every time I try and get my head around it......

Click to expand...

You shouldn't have been condemning CSS all these years - you've got waht you deserve..


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## rulefan (Jan 2, 2020)

Course Rating (SSS) tells scratch golfers how difficult the course will be for them. Bogey Rating tells bogey golfers how difficult the course will be for them. 
Slope is simply a graphical way of telling all non-scratch golfers how much more or less difficult it will be for them *relative* to a scratch golfer

To put it another way: USGA Course Rating tells the best golfers how hard a golf course actually plays; USGA Slope Rating indicates _how much harder_ the course plays for "regular" (meaning not among the best) golfers.

Of course a plus handicapper will have a negative slope adjustment as he will find it easier than a scratch golfer


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## Imurg (Jan 2, 2020)

rosecott said:



			You shouldn't have been condemning CSS all these years - you've got waht you deserve..
		
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Won't we still have an arbitrary adjustment based on what people score..?
CSS by another name?


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## rulefan (Jan 2, 2020)

Without their reading the the manual and checking the tables, I wonder how many golfers actually know how CSS is determined


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## rosecott (Jan 2, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Won't we still have an arbitrary adjustment based on what people score..?
CSS by another name?
		
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Well - at least you will have something new to moan about.


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## Imurg (Jan 2, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Well - at least you will have something new to moan about.
		
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Another year older, another year grumpier - that's me


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## duncan mackie (Jan 2, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i was under the impression slope was a guide to course difficulty.

my home course is par 71 SSS 74 with a slope of 137

Fish posted his course the other day which is shorter, par 73, SSS 72 and yet the slope is 139

am i missing something ?
		
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Difficulty overall (usually heavily length based) - SSS
Difficulty to score  Par - SSS/Par
Difficulty for a higher handicap golfer relative to a scratch golfer - slope


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## patricks148 (Jan 2, 2020)

rulefan said:



			As said Slope is simply an indication of the relative difficulty of a particular course (ie set of tees) for a bogey player (20 ish handicap) as opposed to a scratch player.

When a course (ie set of tees) is rated, two sets of measurements and positions of obstacles are taken into account.
The first are for a 'model' scratch player, which after calculations produces the Course Rating (almost equivalent to SSS). The second for a 'model' bogey player. The Bogey Rating.
Neither figure is related to par but simply indicates how many strokes that type of player is expected to take from those tees.
A theoretical line is drawn on a graph between the two ratings and this is the Slope.
A player will have a 'base' handicap index (derived from the average of the best 8 of the last 20 rounds) and will convert that to his Course Handicap by using the slope.

The first course is more difficult than the second for a scratch player. CR of 74 v CR of 72

The second course is* 'relatively'* slightly more difficult for a higher capper vs a scratch player (Slope 139) player than the first (Slope 137)

*NB Par is irrelevant in this context*

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how would fishes course Coventry have a higher slope 139 when Nairn is longer the sss is higher?


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## Crow (Jan 2, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			how would fishes course Coventry have a higher slope 139 when Nairn is longer the sss is higher?
		
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A parkland course can punish a bad shot more than a links course.


Parkland perils - Water, woods, bunkers, rough, I'd also guess more opportunities to go OB
Links perils- Bunkers, rough

High handicap golfers will find the perils more than the scratch golfer, hence higher slope.


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## NWJocko (Jan 2, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			how would fishes course Coventry have a higher slope 139 when Nairn is longer the sss is higher?
		
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The simple answer is that, as a result of the assessment (again I don't know what factors they consider) it is considered that Coventry is more difficult for a bogey golfer *relative to a scratch golfer* from a given set of tees.  Remember the slope start point (for a scratch golfer) is from the lower/easier Course Rating (SSS equivalent).

Could be a number of reasons, only played Coventry the once seem to remember it was very tree lined so maybe higher handicappers might struggle more off the tee?  (Note this is only a guess, I'm sure you can find the assessment criteria online).

Edit: below is a (simplified I'm guessing first Google Result that popped up) link to the sort of things considered

https://www.cumbria-golf-union.org.uk/course_assessment

My place is similar to Nairn, Par 72, SSS 75 and Slope 138

Makes sense to me off the tee (I'm not a scratch golfer remember) but I hit it 240/250 carry off the tee which is where all of the trouble is at my course.  A 18/20 odd handicapper who can only hit it 200 off the tee has fewer hazards to contend with.  There's more to it than that but that's the general gist I take from it


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## duncan mackie (Jan 2, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			how would fishes course Coventry have a higher slope 139 when Nairn is longer the sss is higher?
		
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Slope is the relationship between the SSS (effectively - CR in tech speak) and the bogey rating (SSS calculated against a lower set of capabilities, especially carry and distance off the tee).
You are , naturally, focussing on the absolute difficulty; but the slope will go up if the course is easy for a scratch player!
Typically such an extreme will come about from carries and tight dogleg


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## patricks148 (Jan 2, 2020)

Crow said:



			A parkland course can punish a bad shot more than a links course.


Parkland perils - Water, woods, bunkers, rough, I'd also guess more opportunities to go OB
Links perils- Bunkers, rough

High handicap golfers will find the perils more than the scratch golfer, hence higher slope.
		
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duncan mackie said:



			Slope is the relationship between the SSS (effectively - CR in tech speak) and the bogey rating (SSS calculated against a lower set of capabilities, especially carry and distance off the tee).
You are , naturally, focussing on the absolute difficulty; but the slope will go up if the course is easy for a scratch player!
Typically such an extreme will come about from carries and tight dogleg
		
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NWJocko said:



			The simple answer is that, as a result of the assessment (again I don't know what factors they consider) it is considered that Coventry is more difficult for a bogey golfer *relative to a scratch golfer* from a given set of tees.  Remember the slope start point (for a scratch golfer) is from the lower/easier Course Rating (SSS equivalent).

Could be a number of reasons, only played Coventry the once seem to remember it was very tree lined so maybe higher handicappers might struggle more off the tee?  (Note this is only a guess, I'm sure you can find the assessment criteria online).
		
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I see, so even though say Nairns SSS is 3 shots higher that par yet Cov appears to be 1 shot under, Cov is still seen as harderr?


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## NWJocko (Jan 2, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			I see, so even though say Nairns SSS is 3 shots higher that par yet Cov appears to be 1 shot under, Cov is still seen as harderr?
		
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No.

Nairn is "harder" in absolute terms as it has a higher Course Rating.

Coventry is considered r*relatively *more difficult for a bogey golfer to a scratch golfer from a certain set of tees.


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## patricks148 (Jan 2, 2020)

NWJocko said:



			No.

Nairn is "harder" in absolute terms as it has a higher Course Rating.

Coventry is considered r*relatively *more difficult for a bogey golfer to a scratch golfer from a certain set of tees.
		
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strange.... i would have thought that if a scratch player found it hard a bogey player would find it doubly hard.

one of the hardest courses ive played is Trump Aberdeen, off the blue which is 6600 that s slope is 140 and the course rating it high too, TBH its doesn't make much sense to me


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## Fish (Jan 2, 2020)

My course is famous 

As stated in the other thread, Patrick looked up a card which is out of date, possibly on our own website, which wouldn't surprise me, however, we were recently reassessed and when awarded our slope of 139, which is one of the highest in our area, our SSS was adjusted to 73 to match our par, this was due to many changes the course had introduced and was welcomed by the membership.

As has been mentioned above, it is a difficult course IMO, we have some very tight tree-lined fairways with very little opportunity of recovery other than chipping out sideways, as they are very dense, compared to neighbouring courses that are tree lined but you can still take a full shot from and scramble a par or bogey at worse.

The better golfers can score well as they don't miss many fairways, but higher handicap golfers will struggle if they find the tree's, rivers, ponds or bunkers.

Many courses around us have far less slope factoring, which kind of substantiates what has been said above as I play very well away from home, even on the Hotchkin, so my handicap travels well, which must mean there's a degree of greater difficulty at Coventry than at other courses I play at


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 2, 2020)

Crow said:



			A parkland course can punish a bad shot more than a links course.


*Parkland perils - Water*, woods, bunkers, rough, I'd also guess more opportunities to go OB
Links perils- Bunkers, rough

High handicap golfers will find the perils more than the scratch golfer, hence higher slope.
		
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Indeed - see my convoluted example earlier of 18 holes all with long water carry off the tee.  Significant hazard peril for Mr Bogey - no big deal for Mr Scratchey.  And therefore likely high slope.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 2, 2020)

Fish said:



			...my handicap travels well, which must mean there's a degree of greater difficulty at Coventry than at other courses I play at 

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more precisely, and relevant to this post, is that there is a degree of greater difficulty at your handicap level (or associated with those whose playing charecteristics approximate to that handicap level).

basically exactly what slope indicates!

however, there's little doubt that those who play their handicap golf at longer (playing), tighter courses with well guarded challenging greens are better equipped to play any course than those playing wide open short courses with flat greens. There's only so much any rating system can do - and that's before the fact that there's more than one set of playing charecteristics that can deliver an 18 handicap in the first place!


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## mikejohnchapman (Jan 6, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			I see, so even though say Nairns SSS is 3 shots higher that par yet Cov appears to be 1 shot under, Cov is still seen as harderr?
		
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Having been part of assessment teams I have always been struck by the relatively small impact that wind has in the rating. Often this is a factor of how many trees are present but I suspect many costal or high courses will have a lower slope rating than many expect.


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## Jacko_G (Jan 6, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i was under the impression slope was a guide to course difficulty.

my home course is par 71 SSS 74 with a slope of 137

Fish posted his course the other day which is shorter, par 73, SSS 72 and yet the slope is 139

am i missing something ?
		
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It's because it's a system that is utterly bonkers.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 7, 2020)

I rather like the idea of 'slope' and how it works.  I can be a member of a club with a low 'slope' because it is relatively easy for the higher (bogey) handicap golfer. When I play a course with a high 'slope' I am playing a course that is relatively difficult for the bogey golfer - and so for me.  The Standard Scratch for the two might be the same - but playing the two courses off the same handicap I'd be likely to score worse on the latter - and so to compensate for that, the slope indexing could well give me an additional shot or few...and so my nett score on both (on average over a few rounds on each) would be more likely to be the same or very similar.

Also does the new system not give clubs more flexibility around changes they might wish to implement to their course - with SSS not being influenced so much by course length...

We are thinking of reducing the length of one of our par 3s by maybe 30yds.  It'll actually be a better and more interesting hole if we did - and would add further variety to our group of par 3s.  In the past losing such yardage could impact and reduce your SSS (and that was often viewed as a negative) - but not with the new system.  Indeed if the par3 becomes harder for the bogey golfer it might *increase *the slope a little.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I rather like the idea of 'slope' and how it works.  I can be a member of a club with a low 'slope' because it is relatively easy for the higher (bogey) handicap golfer. When I play a course with a high 'slope' I am playing a course that is relatively difficult for the bogey golfer - and so for me.  The Standard Scratch for the two might be the same - but playing the two courses off the same handicap I'd be likely to score worse on the latter - and so to compensate for that, the slope indexing could well give me an additional shot or few...*and so my nett score on both (on average over a few rounds on each) would be more likely to be the same or very similar*.

Also does the new system not give clubs more flexibility around changes they might wish to implement to their course - with SSS not being influenced so much by course length...

We are thinking of reducing the length of one of our par 3s by maybe 30yds.  It'll actually be a better and more interesting hole if we did - and would add further variety to our group of par 3s.  In the past losing such yardage could impact and reduce your SSS (and that was often viewed as a negative) - but not with the new system.  Indeed if the par3 becomes harder for the bogey golfer it might *increase *the slope a little.
		
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This won't actually be true. At a handicap index level of around 10, you play a course with slope 130 the course handicap is 11.5, if the slope was 140 your course handicap would be 12.4. So, not a big change really. In having a look at courses in Lincolnshire, from the easiest to hardest course, the difference in course handicap was never more than 1 for me (I play off 9). It would be a bit higher for golfers with higher handicaps of course.

However, more importantly, the handicap adjustment will not lead to the same or similar nett scores from one course to another (i.e. we are not now simply aiming for 36 points to play to handicap), because there are still differences in CR just like there is now in SSS. The easiest way to think about it is, take a 0 handicapper, who will be off 0 regardless of the course they play. The score they are aiming for is the CR not course par (and therefore not 36 points unless CR = Par).

Although, I've now read some authorities may make a further adjustment to adjust course handicap to account for the difference between par and CR.

So, what I believe will be the case is that, our nett score still needs to be comapared to CR rather than par if we are trying to figure out how well we've done against our handicap. The Slope is simply there to give higher handicappers an extra shot or 2 compared to lower handicappers, when the course is more difficult between good and less good players, whereas they'd not get this advantage on a course where the relative difficulty between these player abilities is not so great.


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## rulefan (Jan 7, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			I see, so even though say Nairns SSS is 3 shots higher that par yet Cov appears to be 1 shot under, Cov is still seen as harderr?
		
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Forget par. That only tells you length not difficulty.

What is the CR/SSS and slope of Nairn ?
Coventry (white) is 73 and 139


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## duncan mackie (Jan 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Forget par. That only tells you length not difficulty.

What is the CR/SSS and slope of Nairn ?
Coventry (white) is 73 and 139
		
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?

I've got CR as a reasonable indicator of length (less directly linked than SSS under the old rating systems but still closely tied in), and the ultimate indicator of difficulty for a scr player.

Par is pretty arbitrary - but is no indicator of length (we have 3 rated courses, all with the same par), or difficulty for anyone.


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## rulefan (Jan 7, 2020)

I meant to say par only indicates the length of a hole. I should add to your last sentence that there is plenty of evidence around the world (particularly in the US) where hole par is based on the longest tee to green hole and is taken as the same for all other holes regardless on the tee to green distance.

Edit:
I have just reminded myself that the standard distances used to determine par vary around the world depending on the handicap system in use. There is a standard recommendation in the WHS. I seem to remember CONGU changed their table a few years ago. I wonder how many clubs followed suit.
Further, although in theory there is in each, supposed to be adjustments made for easily carried doglegs or forced lay-ups, evidence suggests it's not often done.


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## patricks148 (Jan 9, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Forget par. That only tells you length not difficulty.

What is the CR/SSS and slope of Nairn ?
Coventry (white) is 73 and 139
		
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par 71, SSS74 CR 74.1 slope137 6890 yards

in saying that i imagine the course might be re rated come the spring once all the changes are complete, the current is only half way though, 1st by 30 yards and 7th by 60 making it a 600 plus par 5


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## rulefan (Jan 9, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			par 71, SSS74 CR 74.1 slope137 6890 yards

in saying that i imagine the course might be re rated come the spring once all the changes are complete, the current is only half way though, 1st by 30 yards and 7th by 60 making it a 600 plus par 5
		
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There's not a lot in it
Coventry 
White CR 73.0 slope 139 (par 73)
Yellow C& 71.3 slope 139 (par 70)
Coventry is some 300 yards shorter than Nairn with a 598 par 5.
So Nairn is marginally the more difficult for a scratch golfer. But Coventry is slightly more difficult for a bogey player RELATIVE to a scratch golfer playing the same tees at the same time. 
The 139 for Coventry tells us nothing about Nairn's difficulty RELATIVE to Coventry's difficulty for any player.


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## patricks148 (Jan 9, 2020)

rulefan said:



			There's not a lot in it
Coventry
White CR 73.0 slope 139 (par 73)
Yellow C& 71.3 slope 139 (par 70)
Coventry is some 300 yards shorter than Nairn with a 598 par 5.
So Nairn is marginally the more difficult for a scratch golfer. But Coventry is slightly more difficult for a bogey player RELATIVE to a scratch golfer playing the same tees at the same time.
The 139 for Coventry tells us nothing about Nairn's difficulty RELATIVE to Coventry's difficulty for any player.
		
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it just seems a strange thing with the slope, to say a Scratch golfer would find X course hard but a Handicap player wouldn't. Surley if a S golfer would find a coursehard  so would everyone else, maybe moreso??


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			it just seems a strange thing with the slope, to say a Scratch golfer would find X course hard but a Handicap player wouldn't. Surley if a S golfer would find a coursehard  so would everyone else, maybe moreso??
		
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Well - maybe so.

But let's say all the par 3s are over 200yds and into the prevailing wind, and because of that the par 3s have low stroke indexes and so most handicap golfers 'get a shot'.  Yes I know that doesn't matter overall because the shots on the par 3s mean shots will not be received somewhere else (but maybe even for the handicap golfer they are easy par 4s and par 5s so not so required) - but in terms of 'hardness' - because he gets a shot on each of the tough par 3s the bogey player might well consider them 'easier' (in respect of getting a nett par) than the scratch player.  Yes I know.  Stretching things a bit.


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## patricks148 (Jan 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well - maybe so.

But let's say all the par 3s are over 200yds and into the prevailing wind, and because of that the par 3s have low stroke indexes and so most handicap golfers 'get a shot'.  Yes I know that doesn't matter overall because the shots on the par 3s mean shots will not be received somewhere else (but maybe even for the handicap golfer they are easy par 4s and par 5s so not so required) - but in terms of 'hardness' - because he gets a shot on each of the tough par 3s the bogey player might well consider them 'easier' (in respect of getting a nett par) than the scratch player.  Yes I know.  Stretching things a bit.
		
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i don't think thats it two of Nairns par 3 are SI17 and 18

as for the par 5' not sure how they would either, the 7th is 606 yards which is played into the wind, i'd be suprised if most HC golfers could even reach in 3... FYI its SI16


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## rulefan (Jan 9, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			it just seems a strange thing with the slope, to say a Scratch golfer would find X course hard but a Handicap player wouldn't. Surley if a S golfer would find a coursehard  so would everyone else, maybe moreso??
		
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No one has said that. 

It is about how *much* harder a handicap player would find that particular course than a scratch player.

Assume course A where all holes were built like a football pitch (ie no water, bunkers or other obstacles). 
Every hole is a 440 yard par 4. A scratch player (S) would be expected to reach each green in 2 and then 2 putt. A bogey player (B) is expected to reach the green in 3 and because his approach shot is much shorter he will 2 putt most times with a few 3s. 
So both found it 'relatively' easy. The Course Rating is 72, Bogey rating is 94. Slope is 118

Assume course B where most every hole is a 440 yard par 4. But many holes have a pond at 180 yards extending for 50 yards. A S would be expected clear it but a B an't get over so would lay up. At 340 yards there may be another pond. The B has to lay up again but S can now reach the green. B has now got a longer approach shot so takes more putts than on course A.
In this case S found it easy but B however found it very difficult. The Course Rating is 72, but to allow for the difficulty factors (ie the water) Bogey rating is 98. Slope is 140.


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## rulefan (Jan 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Well - maybe so.

But let's say all the par 3s are over 200yds and into the prevailing wind, and because of that the par 3s have low stroke indexes and so most handicap golfers 'get a shot'.  Yes I know that doesn't matter overall because the shots on the par 3s mean shots will not be received somewhere else (but maybe even for the handicap golfer they are easy par 4s and par 5s so not so required) - but in terms of 'hardness' - because he gets a shot on each of the tough par 3s the bogey player might well consider them 'easier' (in respect of getting a nett par) than the scratch player.  Yes I know.  Stretching things a bit.
		
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Par is not the measure of difficulty and ratings do not consider handicap strokes (Stroke Index).
Scores (ie Gross) are measured against the Course Rating not par.


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## patricks148 (Jan 9, 2020)

rulefan said:



			No one has said that.

It is about how *much* harder a handicap player would find that particular course than a scratch player.

Assume course A where all holes were built like a football pitch (ie no water, bunkers or other obstacles).
Every hole is a 440 yard par 4. A scratch player (S) would be expected to reach each green in 2 and then 2 putt. A bogey player (B) is expected to reach the green in 3 and because his approach shot is much shorter he will 2 putt most times with a few 3s.
So both found it 'relatively' easy. The Course Rating is 72, Bogey rating is 94. Slope is 118

Assume course B where most every hole is a 440 yard par 4. But many holes have a pond at 180 yards extending for 50 yards. A S would be expected clear it but a B an't get over so would lay up. At 340 yards there may be another pond. The B has to lay up again but S can now reach the green. B has now got a longer approach shot so takes more putts than on course A.
In this case S found it easy but B however found it very difficult. The Course Rating is 72, but to allow for the difficulty factors (ie the water) Bogey rating is 98. Slope is 140.
		
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I get the bit about a Sc player may find X easier, but if a scratch player finds a course hard why wouldn't a bogey player find it even harder, thats the bit i'm not getting??


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			I get the bit about a Sc player may find X easier, but if a scratch player finds a course hard why wouldn't a bogey player find it even harder, thats the bit i'm not getting??
		
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Guess it depends on what you mean by 'harder' 

@rulefan's Course B is going to be 'harder' for many bogey players to play to their handicap (for the course) simply as a result of having to lay up short of the water all the time - with resulting risk of ending up in the water anyway...and not being able to fall back on their short game around the green to recover pars or single bogeys.  Some bogey players may not be quite so affected by having to clear the water and so they won't find it that much 'harder' playing to their course handicap than the scratch player.


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## patricks148 (Jan 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Guess it depends on what you mean by 'harder' 

@rulefan's Course B is going to be 'harder' for many bogey players to play to their handicap (for the course) simply as a result of having to lay up short of the water all the time - with resulting risk of ending up in the water anyway...and not being able to fall back on their short game around the green to recover pars or single bogeys.  Some bogey players may not be quite so affected by having to clear the water and so they won't find it that much 'harder' playing to their course handicap than the scratch player.
		
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i get that, my point is if a scratch golfer finds a course hard and  the SSS ( Yes i know par isn't a factor )is shots over par, why would a HC golfer find it easier to play to handicap.

water is of course a factor of many a parkland course but links courses have deep pot bunkers that there is no guarantee of even getting out let alone first time


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i get that, my point is if a scratch golfer finds a course hard and  the SSS ( Yes i know par isn't a factor )is shots over par, why would a HC golfer find it easier to play to handicap.

water is of course a factor of many a parkland course but links courses have deep pot bunkers that there is no guarantee of even getting out let alone first time 

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Maybe because the higher handicap player doesn't *have *to make so many tough shots...?  So for instance if greens are heavily bunkered - with pot bunkers maybe or with tricky 'throw-off' areas - the handicap golfer has the scope in his handicap to remove the risk of playing into these bunkers or being thrown off the green by laying up and then being able to play to the green nice and safely - the scratch golfer does not have the same luxury.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 9, 2020)

We have a couple of par 4's at our course at around 440 yards, with about a 210 yard carry off tee over water. For most golfers, they cannot get there in 4, they simply cannot clear the water. So, they play them as par 5's, and they are relatively easy par 5's. However, some players (generally better players) can clear the water and play these as par 4's. However, they still have long approach shots, and so they are very tricky par 4's where a 5 is probably a more realistic score. Theoretically, if all 18 holes were like this, you'd say the course would be difficult for a scratch golfer (18 tough par 4's) but easy for a bogey golfer (18 easy par 5's, as they are playing them and as their handicap allows for).

On the other hand, if you had 18 par 4's that were say 300-350 yards long, but you had to carry water about 180-200 yards off the tee, this course would probably be very easy for the scratch golfer (drive over water and shortish iron or chip onto green). However, for the bogey golfer, who typically struggles to clear the water, that course would be more difficult for them.

So, slope is used to try and take these factors into account. Not just rating the difficulty between 2 types of player, but the gulf in difficulty between them.


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## patricks148 (Jan 9, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe because the higher handicap player doesn't *have *to make so many tough shots...?  So for instance if greens are heavily bunkered - with pot bunkers maybe or with tricky 'throw-off' areas - the handicap golfer has the scope in his handicap to remove the risk of playing into these bunkers or being thrown off the green by laying up and then being able to play to the green nice and safely - the scratch golfer does not have the same luxury.
		
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not buying that and i'm sure you are missing my point, if a couse is difficult for a sct player then its harder for everyone, links courses punish poor shots more i would say than they do parkland, pot bunkers are harder to play as well so i'm just not seeing how a Bogey player would find it easier???


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 9, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			not buying that and i'm sure you are missing my point, if a couse is difficult for a sct player then its harder for everyone, links courses punish poor shots more i would say than they do parkland, pot bunkers are harder to play as well so i'm just not seeing how a Bogey player would find it easier???
		
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I do get your point - in general.  But just on difficult well bunkered greens - surely it's going to be easier for a bogey player to avoid the trouble on and around the green - and avoid racking up multiple dropped shots - if they choose to play conservatively and/or within their ability.  If they try and take on the shots that the scratch player has to take on then sure - the bogey player will find such greens really difficult to hit and hold and will really struggle with their scoring.  The scratch player relatively less so in such circumstances.


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## rulefan (Jan 9, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i get that, my point is if a scratch golfer finds a course hard and  the SSS ( Yes i know par isn't a factor )is shots over par, why would a HC golfer* find it easier to play to handicap.*

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I must admit I have never encountered such a course although apparently they do exist. One could devise one theoretically but who would play it?
But as I said before "It _(slope)_ is about how *much* harder a handicap player would find that particular course than a scratch player".


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## Swango1980 (Jan 9, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			not buying that and i'm sure you are missing my point, if a couse is difficult for a sct player then its harder for everyone, links courses punish poor shots more i would say than they do parkland, pot bunkers are harder to play as well so i'm just not seeing how a Bogey player would find it easier???
		
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My post 42 hopefully explains why. Obviously taking 2 extreme examples. I'd imagine in most cases, what's hard for a scratch player will also be hard for a bogey player. Which is probably why the slope is almost the same at my course for yellows and white tees, even though the white course is a lot higher with 2 extra shots on SSS


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## patricks148 (Jan 9, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I must admit I have never encountered such a course although apparently they do exist. One could devise one theoretically but who would play it?
But as I said before "It _(slope)_ is about how *much* harder a handicap player would find that particular course than a scratch player".
		
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but shirley we have already est that, Cov is 300 yards shorter, par and sss are the same yet is 2 higher on slope than Nairn, which has SSS 3 over (yes i know par is ir)

how can my course be harder to play for a Sc player yet Cov is harder for a bogey. 

so at Cov a sc player would find it easy, yet a bogey harder.. i get that,

but at my course a scr would find it harder than a bogey ... I'm not getting it TBH 

FYI this isn't about Cov GC, but just the slope diff


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## Wildboy370 (Jan 9, 2020)

Found this article on the national club golfer site. This is a chart of how it works. But does anyone know when the best 8 rounds out of 20 comes in for the new WHS handicap we will get in Nov ??


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## TheDiablo (Jan 9, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			but shirley we have already est that, Cov is 300 yards shorter, par and sss are the same yet is 2 higher on slope than Nairn, which has SSS 3 over (yes i know par is ir)

how can my course be harder to play for a Sc player yet Cov is harder for a bogey.

so at Cov a sc player would find it easy, yet a bogey harder.. i get that,

but at my course a scr would find it harder than a bogey ... I'm not getting it TBH 

FYI this isn't about Cov GC, but just the slope diff
		
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I don't know how many times it can be explained to you that it is a measure of the relative difficulty at an individual course between a scratch and bogey player, not a way to compare difficulty between courses. 

Just mark your gross score in the box and take what the computer gives you. You don't need to understand the nuances, especially as it is evidently beyond you.


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## patricks148 (Jan 9, 2020)

TheDiablo said:



			I don't know how many times it can be explained to you that it is a measure of the relative difficulty at an individual course between a scratch and bogey player, not a way to compare difficulty between courses.

Just mark your gross score in the box and take what the computer gives you. You don't need to understand the nuances, especially as it is evidently beyond you.
		
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they hav't really people keep posting the same thing, no one can or has yet explained the point i've made... far from it


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## upsidedown (Jan 9, 2020)

My understanding is the WHS goes live on Nov 2 2020 and your WHS handicap index will be calculated throughout the months preceding this date so the more rounds you submit the more accurate it will be . Also think from around August you will be able to see what it's projected to be ?


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## rulefan (Jan 9, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			but shirley we have already est that, Cov is 300 yards shorter, par and sss are the same yet is 2 higher on slope than Nairn, which has SSS 3 over (yes i know par is ir)

how can my course be harder to play for a Sc player yet Cov is harder for a bogey.

so at Cov a sc player would find it easy, yet a bogey harder.. i get that,

but at my course a scr would find it harder than a bogey ... I'm not getting it TBH 

FYI this isn't about Cov GC, but just the slope diff
		
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You are comparing two different courses.

You *can* compare the Course Ratings of two courses as the CR simply tells you how difficult the course is in absolute terms for scratch players.
You *can* compare the Bogey Ratings of two courses as the BR simply tells you how difficult the course is in absolute terms for bogey players.

You *cannot* compare the slope on one course with the slope on another. *Slope is specific to a course*. Slope is comparing two different players (ie S & B) on the same course. ie the difference in the scores they are expected to make.

Loosely, it is a graphical way of representing the difference between the CR and BR for *that specific set of tees*.
Mathematically is is (BR - CR) x 5.381 (for men and 4.24 for women).
It is described as 'slope' because it can be represented as gradient on a graph where the x axis is handicap an the y axis is the CR for a 0 handicap player and 22 for the bogey.

Just subtract the CR from the BR for each course. Which is the greater?

Coventry is 98.7 - 73.0 = 25.7 * 5.381 = 139
Nairn is    BR -74 =
So Nairn is more difficult for a scratch player
But what is the BR for Nairn?


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## huds1475 (Jan 9, 2020)

As a bogey player, how many mulligans do I get per round under the slope system?


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## Wildboy370 (Jan 9, 2020)

Cheers upsidedown. Wondered when it would start counting. 
So from about August and sept as weather turns and courses and playing conditions start to get worse we have a handicap made up based on this. You couldn’t make it up. Could be some odd handicaps for start of next year.


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## rulefan (Jan 9, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			Cheers upsidedown. Wondered when it would start counting.
So from about August and sept as weather turns and courses and playing conditions start to get worse we have a handicap made up based on this. You couldn’t make it up. Could be some odd handicaps for start of next year.
		
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The exercise is simply to let people know what their handicap index is likely to be. It won't be used until November. But if scores get worse they are unlikely to fit into your best 8 of 20. However, whatever the result, it will be consistent with the way all your scores will be treated in future and how your handicap fits in with everyone else.


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## patricks148 (Jan 9, 2020)

rulefan said:



			You are comparing two different courses.

You *can* compare the Course Ratings of two courses as the CR simply tells you how difficult the course is in absolute terms for scratch players.
You *can* compare the Bogey Ratings of two courses as the BR simply tells you how difficult the course is in absolute terms for bogey players.

You *cannot* compare the slope on one course with the slope on another. *Slope is specific to a course*. Slope is comparing two different players (ie S & B) on the same course. ie the difference in the scores they are expected to make.

Loosely, it is a graphical way of representing the difference between the CR and BR for *that specific set of tees*.
Mathematically is is (BR - CR) x 5.381 (for men and 4.24 for women).
It is described as 'slope' because it can be represented as gradient on a graph where the x axis is handicap an the y axis is the CR for a 0 handicap player and 22 for the bogey.

Just subtract the CR from the BR for each course. Which is the greater?

Coventry is 98.7 - 73.0 = 25.7 * 5.381 = 139
Nairn is    BR -74 =
So Nairn is more difficult for a scratch player
But what is the BR for Nairn?
		
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i see thats clearer, in that you cannot comp courses, why didn't you say that in the first place 

Why

only thing on the card is CR 74.1 and slope 137, only other things on the cards are par and SSS


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## rulefan (Jan 9, 2020)

Phew


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## Wildboy370 (Jan 9, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The exercise is simply to let people know what their handicap index is likely to be. It won't be used until November. But if scores get worse they are unlikely to fit into your best 8 of 20. However, whatever the result, it will be consistent with the way all your scores will be treated in future and how your handicap fits in with everyone else.
		
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I agree, but from our club we could be in for a huge change as we have had the course resigned in last two years and it’s now over 700yards longer. It’s rumoured we all should be about 1.5 shots added and when we then take into account the new system could be a few gasps... the 8-15 and rabbits sections could be all over place...  hopefully it will settle down before the start of the 2021 season.. most people I think agree it’s a far better and fairer way of doing it,


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## rulefan (Jan 9, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			I agree, but from our club we could be in for a huge change as we have had the course resigned in last two years and it’s now over 700yards longer. It’s rumoured we all should be about 1.5 shots added and when we then take into account the new system could be a few gasps... the 8-15 and rabbits sections could be all over place...  hopefully it will settle down before the start of the 2021 season.. most people I think agree it’s a far better and fairer way of doing it,
		
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I assume you have had the course rerated. If not you should get a temporary rating from England Golf asap. O/w handicaps and scores will be nonsense during the rest of this year upto November and have a serious effect on the conversion. The conversion will use the rating at the time of posting


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## Wildboy370 (Jan 9, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I assume you have had the course rerated. If not you should get a temporary rating from England Golf asap. O/w handicaps and scores will be nonsense during the rest of this year upto November and have a serious effect on the conversion. The conversion will use the rating at the time of posting
		
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We are waiting to find out apparently golf england have been and looked over the course and all the holes will be redone on stroke index. When and how this will roll out remains the mystery at mo.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 10, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			Cheers upsidedown. Wondered when it would start counting.
So from about August and sept as weather turns and courses and playing conditions start to get worse we have a handicap made up based on this. You couldn’t make it up. Could be some odd handicaps for start of next year.
		
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You may have misinterpreted this a little (lot).

Basically all the rounds in your handicap record could be counting - including for some people rounds from many years ago!

Specific transition arrangements will apply where less than 20 rounds are in history at the point that things switch over.

The more cards you submit through 2020 the more accurate your new handicap index should be.

Not sure where you play but August and September represent the best playing conditions on most courses I play - however the number of people who submit 20 Q scores over 2 months is also rather limited!  I suspect the membership wide average for most clubs will be in the region of 4 scores a year to put this whole exercise into perspective!🤔


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## rulefan (Jan 10, 2020)

Wildboy370 said:



			We are waiting to find out apparently golf england have been and looked over the course and all the holes will be redone on stroke index. When and how this will roll out remains the mystery at mo.
		
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Well they can't rate in 'off season' but if they haven't already will probably issue a temp rating.


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## rulefan (Jan 10, 2020)

duncan mackie said:



			You may have misinterpreted this a little (lot).

Basically all the rounds in your handicap record could be counting - including for some people rounds from many years ago!

Specific transition arrangements will apply where less than 20 rounds are in history at the point that things switch over.

The more cards you submit through 2020 the more accurate your new handicap index should be.

Not sure where you play but August and September represent the best playing conditions on most courses I play - however the number of people who submit 20 Q scores over 2 months is also rather limited!  I suspect the membership wide average for most clubs will be in the region of 4 scores a year to put this whole exercise into perspective!🤔
		
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If the player's current CONGU handicap is reasonably correct, regardless of his playing rate, IMO the conversion to WHS will make no more relative difference than it will to everyone else. 
However, if I understand the process correctly, if a player has played less than 20 Q rounds in the last two years the 'start point' will be two years ago as if no rounds have been played prior to that. So the build up of a handicap truly represents recenty play. Not based on what his handicap was 2+ years ago


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## Foxholer (Jan 10, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			but shirley we have already est that, Cov is 300 yards shorter, par and sss are the same yet is 2 higher on slope than Nairn, which has SSS 3 over (yes i know par is ir)

how can my course be harder to play for a Sc player yet Cov is harder for a bogey.

so at Cov a sc player would find it easy, yet a bogey harder.. i get that,

but at my course a scr would find it harder than a bogey ... I'm not getting it TBH 

FYI this isn't about Cov GC, but just the slope diff
		
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Ever heard the saying 'handicaps at our course travel well' - or similar? That was certainly the case at one course I've belonged to and, I believe, at current one.

Slope is a similar comparison!

My view of what your comparison of Nairn and Cov SSSs and Slopes indicates is that while Nairn is a much harder course for Scratch golfers to score play to Par, it's (marginally) less difficult for 'Bogey' colfers to play to their handicap. Why, (if you want to 'willie-wave' aout slope value) is not obvious, but I suspect it's probably mainly due to positions of hazards - that are in-play for Scratch folk but not in play/avoidable for Bogey rated folk.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 10, 2020)

rulefan said:



			If the player's current CONGU handicap is reasonably correct, regardless of his playing rate, IMO the conversion to WHS will make no more relative difference than it will to everyone else.
However, if I understand the process correctly, if a player has played less than 20 Q rounds in the last two years the 'start point' will be two years ago as if no rounds have been played prior to that. So the build up of a handicap truly represents recenty play. Not based on what his handicap was 2+ years ago
		
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Thanks for that clarification - I hadn't seen it anywhere.

I can see strong arguments either way - however one thing is certainly going to be interesting in that a huge proportion membership is going to getting 'new handicaps (which most almost certainly deserved). Basically a huge reset. As the small number of rounds basis of allocation is based on the assumption that players are new, and  will improve quickly, they will also be flawed and take a long time to correct.

None of that is particularily a cause for concern - it's more likely to create arguments about the validity of the underlying system, which is.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 10, 2020)

As part of our bunker renewal programme (every bunker on the course being rebuilt) we are currently also re-modelling or re-positioning some of our fairway bunkers - and building some new fairway bunkers.  

The objective of the bunker remodelling/repositioning and new bunker work is to increase the challenge presented to the scratch player - whilst making it more interesting for the bogey player and generally make it more more visually attractive.  The changes should have little impact on the bogey golfer's scoring unless he acts the silly booger...  Par will remain the same but I'm thinking the changes will increase the Slope by making the course a little harder for the scratch player but not so for the bogey player.


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## Foxholer (Jan 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...The changes should have little impact on the bogey golfer's scoring unless he acts the silly booger...  Par will remain the same but I'm thinking the changes will increase the Slope by making the course a little harder for the scratch player but not so for the bogey player.
		
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So Slope shouldn't increase - though Course Rating might/should. In fact, Slope might/should decrease - so that, for the Bogey play, new Course Rating + Slope adjustment matches current value.

Comprendez?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 10, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			So Slope shouldn't increase - though Course Rating might/should. In fact, Slope might/should decrease - so that, for the Bogey play, new Course Rating + Slope adjustment matches current value.

Comprendez?
		
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Eh?  I'm confused if I've got this the wrong way round.  If the Slope is a function of the difference in difficulty for a Scratch and for a Bogey Player - then making the course harder for the scratch player is going to reduce the difference between the scores of a scratch and a bogey player - but would that not reduce the Slope?  And actually thinking again about it maybe I get that - scratch and bogey scores closer - so less differential and so less slope...

That would be why it is invalid to judge course 'difficulty' based on Slope - and so incorrect to compare course Slopes and draw a general comparison of course difficulty from that.

And so now - as I understand it - any increased difficulty for the Scratch player resulting from consideration of the bunker changes we are doing, will be reflected in an increase in the (Scratch) Course Rating - and this is a more precise (as in it is calculated and given to one decimal place) version of the course SSS.


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## Foxholer (Jan 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Eh?  I'm confused if I've got this the wrong way round.  If the Slope is a function of the difference in difficulty for a Scratch and for a Bogey Player - then making the course harder for the scratch player is going to reduce the difference between the scores of a scratch and a bogey player - but would that not reduce the Slope?  And actually thinking again about it maybe I get that - scratch and bogey scores closer - so less differential and so less slope...

That would be why it is invalid to judge course 'difficulty' based on Slope - and so incorrect to compare course Slopes and draw a general comparison of course difficulty from that.

And so now - as I understand it - any increased difficulty for the Scratch player resulting from consideration of the bunker changes we are doing, will be reflected in an increase in the (Scratch) Course Rating - and this is a more precise (as in it is calculated and given to one decimal place) version of the course SSS.
		
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Correct - at least from the last sentence of paragraph 1!

And that's also where the OP has 'got it wrong' too. Changes/existing 'hazards and attributes' that are relevant to Scratch players may not be (very) relevant to Bogey players - and vice versa. and it's (mainly) other 'hazards and attributes' that make up Slope.


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## yandabrown (Jan 10, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Well they can't rate in 'off season' but if they haven't already will probably issue a temp rating.
		
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That statement intrigued me, can I ask why? I thought that it was things like distances of holes and positions of bunkers, penalty areas etc. that was being looked at. What changes between the seasons that mean ratings must be done "in season"?


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## Imurg (Jan 10, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Well they can't rate in 'off season' but if they haven't already will probably issue a temp rating.
		
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What's the deadline for rating courses..?
Whipsnade hasn't been done yet, apart from the Reds, or if it has the numbers dont appear on the database yet...
Asked the Pro the other day and he didn't know if it had been done or not.


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## rulefan (Jan 10, 2020)

Imurg said:



			What's the deadline for rating courses..?
Whipsnade hasn't been done yet, apart from the Reds, or if it has the numbers dont appear on the database yet...
Asked the Pro the other day and he didn't know if it had been done or not.
		
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Obviously end October is the target but if courses are not done in time they will be given a temporary rating. This is a standard procedure if a course has been altered and a rating team is not immediately available. It is a pretty straightforward essentially paper procedure that may well involve a less detailed examination of the course. Not always done if the county is very familiar with the course already.
I think the pro would have been aware as the rating team would cause a good few tee times to be blocked out and notices are often put on the tees to warn players.
The reds may well have been done many years ago as ladies tees have been rated to the USGA spec for the last 10 years or so.


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## rulefan (Jan 17, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			That statement intrigued me, can I ask why? I thought that it was things like distances of holes and positions of bunkers, penalty areas etc. that was being looked at. What changes between the seasons that mean ratings must be done "in season"?
		
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Sorry, I missed your question.
Changes between peak playing season (summe rish) and off season (autumn ish thru spring ish).
Run on fairway, greenspeed, length and texture of rough, density of leaf cover on trees and shrubs


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