# public sector pay protests



## c1973 (Oct 18, 2014)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29672049

Are public sector workers deserving of a better pay rise or are they better off than those in similar private sector jobs? Should the general public be supportive of their aims (in terms of pay) and join in with them? 
Also, do Unions only exist as any kind of recognised force in the public sector?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

Believe some within the public sector do deserve pay rises 

But there is also a lot of people within the public sector ( civil servants especially ) who take home a lot of money 

They should get the same pay rise as MPs get


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2014)

It's just like any organisation, there is no such thing as a free dinner, some one has to pay for it.   If people are happy to pay more Tax/Ni to fund increases then it's OK.  IMO it's best to consider their pay in relation to  national average wages.


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## MadAdey (Oct 18, 2014)

Suck it up and deal with it, sorry if that gets up anyone's nose but that is my opinion. For my last 3 years in the RAF I never received a pay rise due to the defence budget cuts. Problem is we did not have the right to walk out in protest and call strikes, we just had to accept it and get on with our jobs. 

If people are jobs that are funded by the tax payer then they have to understand that the only to give pay rises is to either rob from Paul to Pay Peter, or just hike up the taxes. People employed by private companies are not getting pay rises so why should they have to pay more tax to pay for someone else to get one.


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## USER1999 (Oct 18, 2014)

They are massively over paid anyway. In an open market, they would be paid way less than they are currently on, and with hugely reduced pensions too. They live in a dream world.

Hello reality.


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## bluewolf (Oct 18, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			They are massively over paid anyway. In an open market, they would be paid way less than they are currently on, and with hugely reduced pensions too. They live in a dream world.

Hello reality.
		
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Just who exactly are "they". You do realize who has been marching today don't you (Marching, not Striking. In their own time as well).


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## richy (Oct 18, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Suck it up and deal with it, sorry if that gets up anyone's nose but that is my opinion. For my last 3 years in the RAF I never received a pay rise due to the defence budget cuts. Problem is we did not have the right to walk out in protest and call strikes, we just had to accept it and get on with our jobs. 

If people are jobs that are funded by the tax payer then they have to understand that the only to give pay rises is to either rob from Paul to Pay Peter, or just hike up the taxes. People employed by private companies are not getting pay rises so why should they have to pay more tax to pay for someone else to get one.
		
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You could have signed off?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

richy said:



			You could of signed off?
		
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What do you mean by signed off ?


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## Birchy (Oct 18, 2014)

Theres barely anybody getting pay rises so why should these people be a special case?


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## richy (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What do you mean by signed off ?
		
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Handed your notice in. Left.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2014)

richy said:



			You could have signed off?
		
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So could they.


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## richy (Oct 18, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			So could they.
		
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Yep they could. Well done for pointing out the obvious. 

They can also protest. Which they are (well done me)


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

richy said:



			Handed your notice in. Left.
		
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Yes we could have - but the majority liked their job and were proud of their job but it was a bit annoying for us watching Firemen and Civil servants go on strike constantly


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## Birchy (Oct 18, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			So could they.
		
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Bob on. The door is open for anybody who wants to move jobs.


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## Bigfoot (Oct 18, 2014)

There is a bit of naivity here. Whilst there are people fighting for better pay in the NHS, there are also large numbers that are in departments that are being cut. Down grading jobs and cutting numbers. They don't just make people redundant they get them to reapply for jobs and then make some redundant later. Unions are looking after the pay fight and not helping or giving advice to those losing jobs. 

That means there is no sympathy from one group for the others cause.

It seems foolish to be chasing better pay without defending jobs.


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## bluewolf (Oct 18, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Theres barely anybody getting pay rises so why should these people be a special case?
		
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again. Who are "these" people?  And is that a fact that the majority aren't getting pay rises? I would doubt it. The Nurses Union are marching today. My wife is there currently hob-nobbing with Russell Brand. They were recommended 1%. It was refused by Jeremy Hunt. The same Jeremy Hunt who is quite happily about to take 11%. Is 1% more or less than you got this year?


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## richy (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes we could have - but the majority liked their job and were proud of their job but it was a bit annoying for us watching Firemen and Civil servants go on strike constantly
		
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Who's 'we'?


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2014)

richy said:



			Yep they could. Well done for pointing out the obvious. 

They can also protest. Which they are (well done me)
		
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Adey couldn't.


And thanks for pointing out the obvious to his post


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## fundy (Oct 18, 2014)

Depends which jobs are being cut.

Far too many "govt funded" organisations had ridiculous amounts of middle managers added during the new labour era, which ultimately add little or nothing to the overall, strip all of these back out and use the savings to fund those doing the work at the coalface imho

oh and dont get me started on "consultants"


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## Birchy (Oct 18, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			again. Who are "these" people?  And is that a fact that the majority aren't getting pay rises? I would doubt it. The Nurses Union are marching today. My wife is there currently hob-nobbing with Russell Brand. They were recommended 1%. It was refused by Jeremy Hunt. The same Jeremy Hunt who is quite happily about to take 11%. Is 1% more or less than you got this year?
		
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Most people arent getting pay rises, not a fact but ask around and most people will say no rise. Ive not got time to ask the whole population.

1% is More than i got. I got zero.

So im moving jobs.


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## richy (Oct 18, 2014)

M



SocketRocket said:



			Adey couldn't.


And thanks for pointing out the obvious to his post 

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Why couldn't he?


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## bluewolf (Oct 18, 2014)

I get the feeling that a sizeable percentage of replies on this thread will be motivated by jealousy of a perceived reality. People who think that all public sector workers earn millions whilst pocketing gold plated pensions. The Right wing media strikes again.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

richy said:



			Who's 'we'?
		
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The military


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## richy (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The military
		
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Didn't realise you spoke for the whole military. 

Impressive


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## bluewolf (Oct 18, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Most people arent getting pay rises, not a fact but ask around and most people will say no rise. Ive not got time to ask the whole population.1% is More than i got. I got zero.So im moving jobs.
		
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 Most people I know got pay rises. I got 2% this year and last. Maybe you should perform better at work http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/may/20/pay-rises-private-workforce-public-sector-2014


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 18, 2014)

I get sick of hearing people complain about how little pay Nurses & the military are on,they knew the pay when they took the job.
When ever ive been in a hospital the nurses never seem over worked,quite the opposite tbh. 
And don't get me started on teachers


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 18, 2014)

richy said:



			Didn't realise you spoke for the whole military. 

Impressive
		
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Well when you serve 22 years in the military you kind of get the gist via the forces websites and news and papers and forum and speaking to people whilst yes I'm not speaking for the whole military you pick up the General vibe


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## bluewolf (Oct 18, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			I get sick of hearing people complain about how little pay Nurses & the military are on,they knew the pay when they took the job.
When ever ive been in a hospital the nurses never seem over worked,quite the opposite tbh. 
And don't get me started on teachers 

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you do understand pay rises and inflation don't you?  I'm sure you do, but I feel I have to ask.


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## bluewolf (Oct 18, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Most people I know got pay rises. I got 2% this year and last. Maybe you should perform better at work http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/may/20/pay-rises-private-workforce-public-sector-2014

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Mans just to bring balance to the force. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-178479/Average-pay-rises-jump-3-5.html


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2014)

richy said:



			M

Why couldn't he?
		
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He was in the RAF!


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 18, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			you do understand pay rises and inflation don't you?  I'm sure you do, but I feel I have to ask.
		
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Yes of course I do,it just seems that it's always the same people banging on about pay rises.


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## delc (Oct 18, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			I get sick of hearing people complain about how little pay Nurses & the military are on,they knew the pay when they took the job.
When ever ive been in a hospital the nurses never seem over worked,quite the opposite tbh. 
And don't get me started on teachers 

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The money has been reduced by about 15% in real terms since most of them accepted their jobs, so I'm not surprised they are getting upset, particularly when bankers get millions for just 'doing a good job'. Who doesn't do a good job? :mmm:


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## Birchy (Oct 18, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Most people I know got pay rises. I got 2% this year and last. Maybe you should perform better at work http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/may/20/pay-rises-private-workforce-public-sector-2014

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Most i speak to got nowt but even you only got 1% more than what they are getting offered. Not exactly big bucks difference.


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 18, 2014)

delc said:



			The money has been reduced by about 15% in real terms since most of them accepted their jobs, so I'm not surprised they are getting upset, particularly when bankers get millions for just 'doing a good job'.
		
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Well maybe they should become bankers.


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## delc (Oct 18, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Well maybe they should become bankers.
		
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No longer a 'caring' profession! :mmm:


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## bluewolf (Oct 18, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Most i speak to got nowt but even you only got 1% more than what they are getting offered. Not exactly big bucks difference. 

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Depends how much you earn originally. Did you read the articles at all. I'm betting not.


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## bluewolf (Oct 18, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Yes of course I do,it just seems that it's always the same people banging on about pay rises.
		
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I'm confused (not difficult). Are you annoyed with them for standing up for what they believe, or annoyed with others for not doing?


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## richy (Oct 18, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			He was in the RAF!
		
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And he wasn't allowed to leave?


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## Birchy (Oct 18, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Depends how much you earn originally. Did you read the articles at all. I'm betting not. 

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I did. I dont believe moaning about what other people get paid is relevent though. They are doing a completely different job. All them percentages and stats are irrelevent. 

If you want that money, go get it.


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## MadAdey (Oct 18, 2014)

richy said:



			Yep they could. Well done for pointing out the obvious. 

They can also protest. Which they are (well done me)
		
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Like has already been said, if you don't like it leave it, so I did. These jobs can't be that bad if they are willing to stay in them even though they think they are being underpaid. Don't even get me started on the fireman from a few years ago when I was stood outside of my green goddess trying to put a house fire out in nothing more than my combats because we did not get supplied the correct PPE. While they sat around their fire stations drinking tea and moaning.


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## bluewolf (Oct 18, 2014)

Birchy said:



			I did. I dont believe moaning about what other people get paid is relevent though. They are doing a completely different job. All them percentages and stats are irrelevent. 

If you want that money, go get it.
		
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lol. Percentages and stats are irelelevant. Brilliant. My wife,like a lot of nurses, doesn't want to leave her job. She loves it. Even the bits that 50% of this forum couldn't do (she's a children's nurse). It was a "calling" for her. She isn't striking like some have said. Se just wants the pay award that was recommended by the independent assessor. In real terms it's still a pay cut by the way.


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## Birchy (Oct 18, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			lol. Percentages and stats are irelelevant. Brilliant. My wife,like a lot of nurses, doesn't want to leave her job. She loves it. Even the bits that 50% of this forum couldn't do (she's a children's nurse). It was a "calling" for her. She isn't striking like some have said. Se just wants the pay award that was recommended by the independent assessor. In real terms it's still a pay cut by the way.
		
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The stats and percentages are a load of crap, comparing one job to another is wrong. How do they come up with these recommended pay awards as well? Its all flawed.

FWIW i agree they deserve more, nurses for example do a more important job than a lot of professions in my view.

I have no time for people going on strike though, i believe it is wrong.


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## bluewolf (Oct 18, 2014)

Birchy said:



			The stats and percentages are a load of crap, comparing one job to another is wrong. How do they come up with these recommended pay awards as well? Its all flawed.

FWIW i agree they deserve more, nurses for example do a more important job than a lot of professions in my view.

I have no time for people going on strike though, i believe it is wrong.
		
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Striking is most definitely not wrong. Striking for the wrong reason is wrong. The right to strike is very important in ensuring the correct healthy balance between employer and employee.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 18, 2014)

Public sector workers including police, firemen, nurses and ambulance staff are all underpaid for the work they do. Talk to some of our nursing staff and many are forced to do agency work to make ends meet. I also have civil servant friends, at a high level who seem to be doing rather nicely and sitting on a decent pension nest egg. There's no real middle ground. A lot of local government workers (another area that seems to get a lot of publicity) do work hard again under tighter and tighter budget constraints.


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## Pin-seeker (Oct 18, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Public sector workers including police, firemen, nurses and ambulance staff are all underpaid for the work they do. Talk to some of our nursing staff and many are forced to do agency work to make ends meet. I also have civil servant friends, at a high level who seem to be doing rather nicely and sitting on a decent pension nest egg. There's no real middle ground. A lot of local government workers (another area that seems to get a lot of publicity) do work hard again under tighter and tighter budget constraints.
		
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Sounds like the  nursing staff are living behond the their means.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 18, 2014)

Pin-seeker said:



			Sounds like the  nursing staff are living behond the their means.
		
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Not really. I have a lot of friends in places like Charing Cross and St Thomas' and living in London means a large proportion of salary goes on living costs. Not enough nursing accommodation to go round. The pay is on a scale and so no room to pay more or recognise excellent performance with a bonus or pay rise


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 18, 2014)

Birchy said:



			I have no time for people going on strike though, i believe it is wrong.
		
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No strikes ever???????

How do you think that 25 paid days holiday, sickness pay, maternity leave, 40 hour week, safety in the workplace, pensions, redundancy pay was gained? Did the Romans give us them? 

Also, if we all just move jobs to chase pay, who will care for you when sick/injured, who'll teach your kids whilst the lower paid civil servants bail out. Immigrants, oh no can't have them over here taking our jobs............


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			No strikes ever???????

How do you think that 25 paid days holiday, sickness pay, maternity leave, 40 hour week, safety in the workplace, pensions, redundancy pay was gained? Did the Romans give us them? 

Also, if we all just move jobs to chase pay, who will care for you when sick/injured, who'll teach your kids whilst the lower paid civil servants bail out. Immigrants, oh no can't have them over here taking our jobs............
		
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Yep. Fair comment.


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## bluewolf (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			No strikes ever???????

How do you think that 25 paid days holiday, sickness pay, maternity leave, 40 hour week, safety in the workplace, pensions, redundancy pay was gained? Did the Romans give us them? 

Also, if we all just move jobs to chase pay, who will care for you when sick/injured, who'll teach your kids whilst the lower paid civil servants bail out. Immigrants, oh no can't have them over here taking our jobs............
		
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Oh come on Pedro. You could have let me have some fun first!!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not really. I have a lot of friends in places like Charing Cross and St Thomas' and living in London means a large proportion of salary goes on living costs. Not enough nursing accommodation to go round. The pay is on a scale and so no room to pay more or recognise excellent performance with a bonus or pay rise
		
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I think Nurses get a supplement for working in London and surely they get more money as they progress through the grades?


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## Birchy (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			No strikes ever???????

How do you think that 25 paid days holiday, sickness pay, maternity leave, 40 hour week, safety in the workplace, pensions, redundancy pay was gained? Did the Romans give us them? 

Also, if we all just move jobs to chase pay, who will care for you when sick/injured, who'll teach your kids whilst the lower paid civil servants bail out. Immigrants, oh no can't have them over here taking our jobs............
		
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I meant in this instance, sometimes striking is the only way but not on this ocassion imo.

Theres a strike every other week at the moment, if we all strike when the going gets tough nothing would get done.

If they want to get me more holidays and stuff like that then go for it :rofl:


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 18, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Oh come on Pedro. You could have let me have some fun first!!
		
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Forget where he he comes from the little tyke.

 Kids these days, they didn't have to live through the Thatcher years......god, what have I started now......


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			No strikes ever???????

How do you think that 25 paid days holiday, sickness pay, maternity leave, 40 hour week, safety in the workplace, pensions, redundancy pay was gained? *Did the Romans give us them? *

Also, if we all just move jobs to chase pay, who will care for you when sick/injured, who'll teach your kids whilst the lower paid civil servants bail out. Immigrants, oh no can't have them over here taking our jobs............
		
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Yes!  What did the Romans ever do for us?


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 18, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I think Nurses get a supplement for working in London and surely they get more money as they progress through the grades?
		
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Yep, there is a cost of living allowance and of course like any job, you get more money as you get promoted. One of the issues we have though, not in London but not far away in Reading is we are getting loads of newly qualified nurses, with no cost of living, who are starting on a Â£21,478 salary that are struggling with accommodation costs. It's that that causes many to leave so soon and we do have retention issues around this. Of course as you progress, even with annual increments (around Â£700-800 per annum) thing do get easier. Lots of other grades (housekeeping or healthcare assistants, both starting at Â£14,294) also find it hard to make ends meet and again we have issues keeping them on that salary


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 18, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes!  What did the Romans ever do for us?
		
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Exactly!!!!!!!


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## FairwayDodger (Oct 18, 2014)

Well I'm in the private sector and got nothing this year. Again. That's crap but I don't think others should get shafted just because I did. Classic divide and conquer mentality.....


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## bluewolf (Oct 18, 2014)

Birchy said:



			I meant in this instance, sometimes striking is the only way but not on this ocassion imo.

Theres a strike every other week at the moment, if we all strike when the going gets tough nothing would get done.

If they want to get me more holidays and stuff like that then go for it :rofl:
		
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Once again. They're not striking. They're protesting. In their own time. At their own cost. Protesting. Not striking. Striking - No. Protesting - Yes.


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 18, 2014)

Birchy said:



			I meant in this instance, sometimes striking is the only way but not on this ocassion imo.

Theres a strike every other week at the moment, if we all strike when the going gets tough nothing would get done.

If they want to get me more holidays and stuff like that then go for it :rofl:
		
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Not what you said, mr. Cool.

If people hadn't manned the barricades, you wouldn't be sitting in your air-conditioned office, being cool,eating biscuits,getting fat,being cool.

#Fatcat


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## Birchy (Oct 18, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Once again. They're not striking. They're protesting. In their own time. At their own cost. Protesting. Not striking. Striking - No. Protesting - Yes.
		
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Good luck to them on that then :thup:

Were they to strike on this issue i think it would be wrong imo. That is what will happen next though, everybody knows that. Its only a matter of time.


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## Birchy (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Not what you said, mr. Cool.

If people hadn't manned the barricades, you wouldn't be sitting in your air-conditioned office, being cool,eating biscuits,getting fat,being cool.

#Fatcat
		
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Wow wow wow i didnt get any ****ing biscuits! 













Thats it im going on strike


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Yep, there is a cost of living allowance and of course like any job, you get more money as you get promoted. One of the issues we have though, not in London but not far away in Reading is we are getting loads of newly qualified nurses, with no cost of living, who are starting on a Â£21,478 salary that are struggling with accommodation costs. It's that that causes many to leave so soon and we do have retention issues around this. Of course as you progress, even with annual increments (around Â£700-800 per annum) thing do get easier. Lots of other grades (housekeeping or healthcare assistants, both starting at Â£14,294) also find it hard to make ends meet and again we have issues keeping them on that salary
		
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Those things are not only a problem in the NHS Homer.   I think most young people tend to live in shared houses to keep costs down.     Are these salaries out of touch with similar people in the private sector?

As I said earlier, its down to someone paying for it, the Government doesn't have money, they just spend ours.


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## bluewolf (Oct 18, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Good luck to them on that then :thup:

Were they to strike on this issue i think it would be wrong imo. That is what will happen next though, everybody knows that. Its only a matter of time.
		
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thats the worst attempt at face saving I've ever seen. Ever. You were wrong. Wronger than Scouser in a G String. Admit it


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## Birchy (Oct 18, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			thats the worst attempt at face saving I've ever seen. Ever. You were wrong. Wronger than Scouser in a G String. Admit it
		
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Ok i was wrong i admit, god loves a trier though


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## NWJocko (Oct 18, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Ok i was wrong i admit, god loves a trier though 

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Just not as wrong as Scouser in a G string 

Shudder, mind bleach anyone.... :temper:


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## Birchy (Oct 18, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			Just not as wrong as Scouser in a G string 

Shudder, mind bleach anyone.... :temper:
		
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The fact Danny mentioned that means he must have thought about it at some stage.

Thats worrying


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## williamalex1 (Oct 18, 2014)

Birchy said:



			The stats and percentages are a load of crap, comparing one job to another is wrong. How do they come up with these recommended pay awards as well? Its all flawed.

FWIW i agree they deserve more, nurses for example do a more important job than a lot of professions in my view.

I have no time for people going on strike though, i believe it is wrong.
		
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It's not worth going on strike.

 Back in 1972,  I/ we were persuaded to go on strike by our union , it lasted for 17 weeks with zero wages or benefits.

 At that time our weekly wage was about Â£24.00 for a 42 hour week.   The EEPTU union advised and we settled for a 5% rise giving us an extra Â£1.20 per week.
I calculate we lost Â£408.00 over that 17 week period, and it took 340 weeks to make up what we lost in wages, i think. 
Good old days petrol was 7p a litre, i sold our first house, a living room, bedroom, kitchen and shared outside toilet, price Â£1500.00


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			Just not as wrong as Scouser in a G string 

Shudder, mind bleach anyone.... :temper:
		
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Unfortunately, once imagined never removed


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 18, 2014)

williamalex1 said:



			It's not worth going on strike.

 Back in 1972,  I/ we were persuaded to go on strike by our union , it lasted for 17 weeks with zero wages or benefits.

 At that time our weekly wage was about Â£24.00 for a 42 hour week.   The EEPTU union advised and we settled for a 5% rise giving us an extra Â£1.20 per week.
I calculate we lost Â£408.00 over that 17 week period, and it took 340 weeks to make up what we lost in wages, i think. 
Good old days petrol was 7p a litre, i sold our first house, a living room, bedroom, kitchen and shared outside toilet, price Â£1500.00
		
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You must have been in the wrong union, most were getting double digit percentages in the 70's.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 18, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Those things are not only a problem in the NHS Homer.   I think most young people tend to live in shared houses to keep costs down.     Are these salaries out of touch with similar people in the private sector?

As I said earlier, its down to someone paying for it, the Government doesn't have money, they just spend ours.
		
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I don't disagree with you. I'm merely highlighting the fact, for what I think we can agree, is a good case (nursing and ancillary staff), that the salary paid, is for some hard to live on and as a result, we're having recruitment and retention issues and lose a lot to private sector agencies or private hospitals. I don't have an answer and agree that the government hasn't the money but I do also think that our emergency staff are at the thin end of a large wedge


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## williamalex1 (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			You must have been in the wrong union, most were getting double digit percentages in the 70's.
		
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  You're  wrong, Jim Callaghans labour government introduce a 5% max  pay rise across the board shortly  after decimalisation came in.


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## Birchy (Oct 18, 2014)

What we are really missing is another figurehead leader like Thatcher. She had the morals bang on.


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## williamalex1 (Oct 18, 2014)

Birchy said:



			What we are really missing is another figurehead leader like Thatcher. She had the morals bang on.
		
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:rofl:


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 18, 2014)

williamalex1 said:



			You're  wrong, Jim Callaghans labour government introduce a 5% max  pay rise across the board shortly  after decimalisation came in.
		
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He may well have, for a period, but by the mid to late 70's double digit pay rises were happening.


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## bluewolf (Oct 18, 2014)

Birchy said:



			What we are really missing is another figurehead leader like Thatcher. She had the morals bang on.
		
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Looks like Coolio's been on the Bacardi Breezers again. Put down the Alcopops and get yerself a cup of coffee mate.


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## Birchy (Oct 18, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Looks like Coolio's been on the Bacardi Breezers again. Put down the Alcopops and get yerself a cup of coffee mate. 

Click to expand...

Told you it wouldnt work Pete, even Danny isnt that stupid 

mmm Bacardi breezers, not had one of them for a good while :lol:


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## SocketRocket (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			He may well have, for a period, but by the mid to late 70's double digit pay rises were happening.
		
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And so was inflation.


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## williamalex1 (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			He may well have, for a period, but by the mid to late 70's double digit pay rises were happening.
		
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 72 is early 70s


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 18, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			And so was inflation.
		
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yep


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 18, 2014)

williamalex1 said:



			72 is early 70s
		
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I know, my original statement was correct, I just said the seventies.


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## bluewolf (Oct 18, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Told you it wouldnt work Pete, even Danny isnt that stupid 

mmm Bacardi breezers, not had one of them for a good while :lol:
		
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sometimes I can be catastrophically stoopid mate. Idiocracy style stupid. Kick me in the balls and steal my Hot Dog stoopid.


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 18, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Told you it wouldnt work Pete, even Danny isnt that stupid 

mmm Bacardi breezers, not had one of them for a good while :lol:
		
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Dont know what your on about.

















:whoo:


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## bluewolf (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Dont know what your on about.

















:whoo:
		
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oh aye. Taking advantage of me in my Malbec affected state!! Some friends you guys are.


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## NWJocko (Oct 18, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			oh aye. Taking advantage of me in my Malbec affected state!! Some friends you guys are. 

Click to expand...

So you're drinking wine and thinking of Scouser in a G string..!!?


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## Birchy (Oct 18, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			oh aye. Taking advantage of me in my Malbec affected state!! Some friends you guys are. 

Click to expand...

Not quite enough Malbec yet mate obviously, maybe i should have left it half an hour


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## Birchy (Oct 18, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			So you're drinking wine and thinking of Scouser in a G string..!!? 

Click to expand...

Lambrini girls eat your heart out


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 18, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			oh aye. Taking advantage of me in my Malbec affected state!! Some friends you guys are. 

Click to expand...

Is blue nun pronounced "Malbec"?

Just poured an Atholl browse, me self.

#Nectar


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## NWJocko (Oct 18, 2014)

Birchy said:



			Lambrini girls eat your heart out 

Click to expand...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## bluewolf (Oct 18, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			So you're drinking wine and thinking of Scouser in a G string..!!? 

Click to expand...

I don't need to think about it. I've got the picture as the wallpaper on my phone. 

Oh and I can't help bein reet posh can I? I like a nice tipple on my night off.


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## bluewolf (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Is blue nun pronounced "Malbec"?

Just poured an Atholl browse, me self.

#Nectar
		
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Nice. Am-brose-ia of the Gods that is. Geddit????


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 18, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Nice. Am-brose-ia of the Gods that is. Geddit????
		
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Yes, sadly, even though autocorrect said browse.


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## bluewolf (Oct 18, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Yes, sadly, even though autocorrect said browse.
		
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I know mate. I didn't have the heart to correct it. I'm too drunk to care. I've gone all working class now and opened the Shiraz.


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## Birchy (Oct 18, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			I know mate. I didn't have the heart to correct it. I'm too drunk to care. I've gone all working class now and opened the Shiraz.
		
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How long before you get to the blossom hill?


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 18, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			I know mate. I didn't have the heart to correct it. I'm too drunk to care. I've gone all working class now and opened the Shiraz.
		
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Only if 2parts thunderbird added, although I'm proper posh,me.


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## bluewolf (Oct 19, 2014)

Birchy said:



			How long before you get to the blossom hill? 

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About 35 years mate. Or, as soon as I'm invited to your house.


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## Scouser (Oct 19, 2014)

NWJocko said:



			So you're drinking wine and thinking of Scouser in a G string..!!? 

Click to expand...

As you lot know I haven't been around for a while.... Thought I would read this thread being a public sector worker (who is hard done to)  read the first couple of post... Got bored...  Jumped to the end.... 

And


How on earth do I get a mention in a G string... Iain you are a sick pup. 


ps pay me more... Forget the rest I actually do deserve it


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2014)

Well thats an impressive change of topic


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## Junior (Oct 19, 2014)

Birchy a Thatcher lover, Scouser in a Bikini....this thread has spiralled faster than parts of the public sector!!!!

Fwiw, in my short working life, I  think that the public sector trails a year or so behind the private sector.  When we have gone through redundancy and periods of austerity, it always seem like a year later the screws then get tightened on the public sector. It makes sense really as with fewer people working, less monies go into the tax pot and the benefit claims get bigger.  

From an ousider looking in, I think the leadership (and the govt) in the public sector dont plan or budget well enough for periods of economic decline.  I'm not well informed enough to comment on who deserves what pay rise , but what i do know is that you cant end up in is a situation whereby nurses and policemen are being made redundant and those around them are having to work 60 hour weeks.  The situation is unsustainable, morale hits rock bottom and people strike.  The catch 22 they end up in is that the leadership dont believe they should award pay rises whilst people are being made redundant and those working ridiculously hard understandably think that they need to be rewarded. 

The answer.....well, easier said than done but better planning and preparation for periods of 'trough',  more intellegent budgeting in periods of economic growth and strong ethical leadership.  Given the 'visible' nature of the public sector ethics and values are vital.


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## Scouser (Oct 19, 2014)

In all seriousness look at it this way... 

A business has to raise money to stay afloat...  A good business can reward employees for high turnover and productivity... A poor business goes under... 

A local authority (I know this started out as a health service but the same will apply in principle)  can not go broke... It is impossible. 

There spending has to be met somehow either hand outs from the government which in turn is normally through higher taxes and pay freezes.... 

When times are good in private business bonuses and pay rises above inflation will probably be given... Not so in the public sector as public sector workers are then blamed for increases that are too big and accused of only looking after number 1


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2014)

Fully understand that the country pays for public sector pay rises 

But how can they justify the pay rises given to MPs over the years ?


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## Scouser (Oct 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Fully understand that the country pays for public sector pay rises 

But how can they justify the pay rises given to MPs over the years ?
		
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They can't... 

But if we voted for our own pay rises..... Wouldn't we all say yes


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## Ethan (Oct 19, 2014)

The MP salary is a red herring. When you add in the expenses, the value of the pensions and other benefits, and more importantly the fact that many of them go on to lucrative directorships by exploiting their contacts and knowledge of the process, it is easy to see why someone in power recently described being an MP as simply the internship for the real money making career. 

As for public sector employees, I fully support their right to take IA. They have been screwed by the Govt in recent years who have broken pay agreements and eroded their pensions because of the effects of faulty Govt policy in sucking up to the City. Yet the City boys haven't suffered much. The mistake the unions are making is making the IA so mild that it only inconveniences their colleagues and doesn't affect the Govt. Much more is needed. 

The NHS is suffering disastrous and irreversible change. Many GPs in their 50s are taking early retirement or cutting their hours and fewer trainee GPs are willing to fill their shoes. There is a major crisis looming. I don't blame them. I know a few GPs and the job has turned into a box ticking, policy adhering bureaucratic nightmare with every day bringing a whining scare story in the Daily Wail. the idea, of course, is to soften GPs up for transfer to private healthcare organisations, such as United Health, the former (and probably future) company of the current head of NHS England.


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## delc (Oct 19, 2014)

The Government  seems to have forgotten the Keynesian principle that workers are also consumers. If you keep screwing down wages, people will have less disposable income to spend on goods and services, so the companies that provide them either go under and their employees will be thrown out of work, or else their profits will cut and they will have to squeeze the incomes of their workers. It's a vicious circle. The Government can only raise taxes on profits and incomes, so their take is reduced at the same time as they have to pay out more in unemployment benefit and income support.  That is why austerity is not reducing the fiscal deficit!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2014)

delc said:



			The Government  seems to have forgotten the Keynesian principle that workers are also consumers. If you keep screwing down wages, people will have less disposable income to spend on goods and services, so the companies that provide them either go under and their employees will be thrown out of work, or else their profits will cut and they will have to squeeze the incomes of their workers. It's a vicious circle. The Government can only raise taxes on profits and incomes, so their take is reduced at the same time as they have to pay out more in unemployment benefit and income support.  *That is why austerity is not reducing the fiscal deficit!* 

Click to expand...

Are you sure of that?


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## USER1999 (Oct 19, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Just who exactly are "they". You do realize who has been marching today don't you (Marching, not Striking. In their own time as well).
		
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'They' are doctors, nurses, firemen, civil servants, policemen, any one employed by the council, particularly bin men, teachers, and social workers (top of my list). It's a free market. If you don't like the pay and conditions, go and get another job. Just like every body else.


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## Scouser (Oct 19, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			'They' are doctors, nurses, firemen, civil servants, policemen, any one employed by the council, particularly bin men, teachers, and social workers (top of my list). It's a free market. If you don't like the pay and conditions, go and get another job. Just like every body else.
		
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A very sweeping statement.  Some of those jobs require specific training and qualifications that are non transferable...  More to the point if every one left those jobs how do u think you would survive.... A sweeping and very stupid statement


Edit... Teachers and more likely  binmen are unlikely to be employed by a local authority now


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## bluewolf (Oct 19, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			'They' are doctors, nurses, firemen, civil servants, policemen, any one employed by the council, particularly bin men, teachers, and social workers (top of my list). It's a free market. If you don't like the pay and conditions, go and get another job. Just like every body else.
		
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they dont want to change jobs. They want fair recognition for the job that they already do. Is that not what you want? Or do you change job every year?

this glib recital of the old "change jobs if you don't like it" is particularly pathetic and shows no recognition of either the job market or jobs which could be considered a "calling". It also plays particularly well into the hands of the Right Wing Political Establishment who are particularly fond of not practising what they preach.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			they dont want to change jobs. They want fair recognition for the job that they already do. Is that not what you want? Or do you change job every year?

this glib recital of the old "change jobs if you don't like it" is particularly pathetic and shows no recognition of either the job market or jobs which could be considered a "calling". It also plays particularly well into the hands of the Right Wing Political Establishment who are particularly fond of not practising what they preach.
		
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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 19, 2014)

Scouser said:



			A very sweeping statement.  Some of those jobs require specific training and qualifications that are non transferable...  More to the point if every one left those jobs how do u think you would survive.... A sweeping and very stupid statement


Edit... Teachers and more likely  binmen are unlikely to be employed by a local authority now
		
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I agree. Three years training to be a nurse is not going to give transferable skills into anything other than a nursing role in the private sector where there may be more money around although in nursing that's debatable in the current climate.


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## USER1999 (Oct 19, 2014)

No job should be considered a calling. They are all jobs. That's it.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2014)

It seems that it's OK for Nurses, Doctors and so forth to go into the private health sector for more money (Profit) but akin to genocide if anyone suggest putting NHS services to private contractors. 

Back to Public sector pay and job benefits.   They seem to still have a better overall package than similar private sector workers. 

There are some jobs like Nurses that most people believe should be kept in line but many others dont hold the same sympathies.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			No job should be considered a calling. They are all jobs. That's it.
		
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Thatd a very cold way of looking at it - a lot of people see them as more than just jobs with pride attached to it along other things

I didnt think of my time in the RAF as "just a job" - it was lifestyle and one i enjoyed and was very proud of doing 

Would think a lot of jobs in the public service are like that - people do like providing a service for the public


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Thatd a very cold way of looking at it - a lot of people see them as more than just jobs with pride attached to it along other things

I didnt think of my time in the RAF as "just a job" - it was lifestyle and one i enjoyed and was very proud of doing 

Would think a lot of jobs in the public service are like that - people do like providing a service for the public
		
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Thats not unique to the public sector. 

Is it fair to expect people doing similar work on lower wages to pay more tax so PHS employees are better off than them?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats not unique to the public sector. 

Is it fair to expect people doing similar work on lower wages to pay more tax so PHS employees are better off than them?
		
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When has anyone suggested people do that ?


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## Scouser (Oct 19, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			No job should be considered a calling. They are all jobs. That's it.
		
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I agree but like I said before the world would be a far worse place without some of the jobs


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## USER1999 (Oct 19, 2014)

Scouser said:



			I agree but like I said before the world would be a far worse place without some of the jobs
		
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Sure, but there are jobs that I would rather do, that don't put food on the table.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 19, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Thats not unique to the public sector. 

Is it fair to expect people doing similar work on lower wages to pay more tax so PHS employees are better off than them?
		
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Not sure that has been suggested. If other workers are on low wages why would they be taxed more so PHS employees are better off? Income tax is purely that (income) and not job related. Now if you'd said overpaid MP's being taxed more to benefit public sector employees...!


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Not sure that has been suggested. If other workers are on low wages why would they be taxed more so PHS employees are better off? Income tax is purely that (income) and not job related. Now if you'd said overpaid MP's being taxed more to benefit public sector employees...!
		
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This talk of overpaid MPs is not a serious proposal, if you stopped paying them it would not create enough to do anything.   What I meant Homer was that to increase Public sector wages other people will have to pay more tax to fund it and is that fair if they are paid less?   People are losing sight of the fact that we have to borrow money to pay the current bill.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 19, 2014)

I was being facetious, although I do think they are overpaid and can't really justify voting themselves another 5% increase or whatever it was they gave themselves.


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## Scouser (Oct 19, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			Sure, but there are jobs that I would rather do, that don't put food on the table.
		
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But without those jobs... Dr's nurses firemen... There may be a day u can no longer put food on the table


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## sandmagnet (Oct 19, 2014)

fundy said:



			Depends which jobs are being cut.

Far too many "govt funded" organisations had ridiculous amounts of middle managers added during the new labour era, which ultimately add little or nothing to the overall, strip all of these back out and use the savings to fund those doing the work at the coalface imho

oh and dont get me started on "consultants"
		
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This:thup:


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## USER1999 (Oct 19, 2014)

Scouser said:



			But without those jobs... Dr's nurses firemen... There may be a day u can no longer put food on the table
		
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May be. I know a few firemen who have retired in their late forties. I'd love a job that enabled me to retire that early.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			May be. I know a *few firemen* who have retired in their late forties. I'd love a job that enabled me to retire that early.
		
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Certainly wouldnt judge many public sector workers on them - but retiring in late 40's - their pension isnt that good but then they were allowed to supplement their wages during all their time off


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## Scouser (Oct 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Certainly wouldnt judge many public sector workers on them - but retiring in late 40's - their pension isnt that good but then they were allowed to supplement their wages during all their time off
		
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Aren't we all allowed to have a second job... (let's not get in to any working time directives)  The point is should u need a second job


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## USER1999 (Oct 19, 2014)

Scouser said:



			Aren't we all allowed to have a second job... (let's not get in to any working time directives)  The point is should u need a second job
		
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If there aren't any vacancies, then the job pays enough, or more so. If you can fit a 37 hour week into 3 days, and leave four days off, then it's not a question of need, but can. How well you can perform at your job with a 12 hour shift remains a good question.

I know an ex fireman who used to take his fire truck to tesco to do the shopping, and then drop it off home.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2014)

Scouser said:



			Aren't we all allowed to have a second job... (let's not get in to any working time directives)  The point is should u need a second job
		
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yes they are allowed a second job - the firemans hours allowed them to get that second job - and when they tried to stop that they went on strike and other public sector workers filled in for - as madadey says - we were out tackling fires with the Green Goddess without the correct protection - driving past fireman striking was a bit of a kick to take at the time


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When has anyone suggested people do that ?
		
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By implication!   To increase PSW wages the money has to come from somewhere as we don't have a surplus pot that we can did into.   The money to give the increase can only come from taxes in what ever form, probably increased NI contributions.

So! I repeat: Is it fair to expect people working on lower wages than the equivalent PSW to pay more tax to increase their wages?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			By implication!   To increase PSW wages the money has to come from somewhere as we don't have a surplus pot that we can did into.   The money to give the increase can only come from taxes in what ever form, probably increased NI contributions.

So! I repeat: Is it fair to expect people working on lower wages than the equivalent PSW to pay more tax to increase their wages?
		
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Not implied anything - and do public sector workers get more than their private equivalant ? certain not in my experience. If anything the total opposite.


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## bluewolf (Oct 19, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			By implication!   To increase PSW wages the money has to come from somewhere as we don't have a surplus pot that we can did into.   The money to give the increase can only come from taxes in what ever form, probably increased NI contributions.

So! I repeat: Is it fair to expect people working on lower wages than the equivalent PSW to pay more tax to increase their wages?
		
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What's the equivalent for a Nurse, a teacher, a Policeman? 

Is it fair that Private sector wages are rising faster than the Public sector. Meaning that there are increased Tax revenues. These increased revenues are more than sufficient to provide the 1% pay rise (effectively a pay cut) for Nurses. If I wanted to be provocative I could argue for the Governments biggest tax burden to be reduced..


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2014)

Scouser said:



			Aren't we all allowed to have a second job... (let's not get in to any working time directives)  The point is should u need a second job
		
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Most people don't have time or energy to do a second job.    I know a number of Firefighters that find time to run their own business, play golf and have a family.    We are all aware that they do a great job when called for and receive a very good package to do it but they do get a fair amount of time off, also it's not just about 'need' it's also about 'making money' just like greedy employers, bankers and MPs do.


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## bluewolf (Oct 19, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Most people don't have time or energy to do a second job.    I know a number of Firefighters that find time to run their own business, play golf and have a family.    We are all aware that they do a great job when called for and receive a very good package to do it but they do get a fair amount of time off, also it's not just about 'need' it's also about 'making money' just like greedy employers, bankers and MPs do.
		
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I know several builders who get plenty of time off, enjoy plenty of golf and holidays.. But I don't judge the entire building trade by their actions..


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## williamalex1 (Oct 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Certainly wouldnt judge many public sector workers on them - but retiring in late 40's - their pension isnt that good but then they were allowed to supplement their wages during all their time off
		
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When i started in the public sector in 1968 i was automatically put in their pension scheme, i could have i opted out but so so glad i didn't.

 I paid 5% and the council paid 5% of my wage[ not sure if it was gross or net]  into my final salary pension fund.

At the age of 52 with 30 years service i got voluntary retirement with 10 years service added.

I received a lump sum and a full pension, because of the restructuring/ amalgamation  of local councils. Best 2  decision i've ever made
1st joining  2 nd leaving .:whoo:
PS i get at least a 1% rise every year. so there.:whoo:


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			What's the equivalent for a Nurse, a teacher, a Policeman? 

Is it fair that Private sector wages are rising faster than the Public sector. Meaning that there are increased Tax revenues. These increased revenues are more than sufficient to provide the 1% pay rise (effectively a pay cut) for Nurses. If I wanted to be provocative I could argue for the Governments biggest tax burden to be reduced..
		
Click to expand...

The tax they pay comes out of the money taken from private sector taxes that fund their services, it's not from increased GDP.  Increased wages can only be funded from savings or increased tax.

Your guarded statement is probably referring to State Retirement Pensions.   I would agree that savings could be made there in the form of reducing some benefits to better off pensioners.   As the basic pension is tied to the number of years NI contributions then I cant see how that can be reduced other than cutting the supplementary top ups but thats a tough call on the lowest paid.


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## Scouser (Oct 19, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Most people don't have time or energy to do a second job.    I know a number of Firefighters that find time to run their own business, play golf and have a family.    We are all aware that they do a great job when called for and receive a very good package to do it but they do get a fair amount of time off, also it's not just about 'need' it's also about 'making money' just like greedy employers, bankers and MPs do.
		
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So now firemen are greedy because they work 2 jobs..... I wish people would just go on the dole fancy working two jobs and being described as greed...  I had three jobs not so long ago... I must be an absolute disgrace


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## williamalex1 (Oct 19, 2014)

Scouser said:



			So now firemen are greedy because they work 2 jobs..... I wish people would just go on the dole fancy working two jobs and being described as greed...  I had three jobs not so long ago... I must be an absolute disgrace
		
Click to expand...

 Yosser "Geez a job" springs to mind.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2014)

Scouser said:



			So now firemen are greedy because they work 2 jobs..... I wish people would just go on the dole fancy working two jobs and being described as greed...  I had three jobs not so long ago... I must be an absolute disgrace
		
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I had no issues with them doing a second job - what i did have issues with is when the went on strike because when offered 4% pay rise they rejected it and wanted 40% - so their job was covered by people who only got a 1.5% pay rise - they then rejected 11% spread over two years - finally they got 16% but hours changed.

40% they demanded.


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## Scouser (Oct 19, 2014)

williamalex1 said:



			Yosser "Geez a job" springs to mind.

Click to expand...


Haha


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2014)

Scouser said:



			So now firemen are greedy because they work 2 jobs..... I wish people would just go on the dole fancy working two jobs and being described as greed...  I had three jobs not so long ago... I must be an absolute disgrace
		
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My point is that they are rewarded well for the job they do, I didnt say greedy, thats putting words in my mouth!


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## Scouser (Oct 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I had no issues with them doing a second job - what i did have issues with is when the went on strike because when offered 4% pay rise they rejected it and wanted 40% - so their job was covered by people who only got a 1.5% pay rise - they then rejected 11% spread over two years - finally they got 16% but hours changed.

40% they demanded.
		
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That's a totally different argument then and a fair point


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## Scouser (Oct 19, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			My point is that they are rewarded well for the job they do, I didnt say greedy, thats putting words in my mouth!
		
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Read your post again... I can highlight it for u if needed


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			My point is that they are rewarded well for the job they do, I didnt say greedy, thats putting words in my mouth!
		
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Depends on who judges what "well rewarded means"

And your post did seem to put them on the same level as bankers in regards greed


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 19, 2014)

Scouser said:



			Read your post again... I can highlight it for u if needed
		
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Pack in you, people will start thinking that people with Liverpool connections are argumentative!


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## Fish (Oct 19, 2014)

I had my leave cancelled in 77 due to Fireman strike

I had my leave cancelled due to Bin men strike in 78/9

I had my leave cancelled due to Tanker Drivers strike in 79

I had my leave cancelled in 79 & 81 due to Ambulance strike

Good old James Callaghan and the Labour party (winter of discontent) were responsible, and on 2 occasions I had just finished a tour in NI and still wasn't allowed home and had to be on stand-by, I hate them all, irrelevant of their wants, because it was at the expense of mine!

The Falklands was a great distraction to the crap that was and had gone on over those few years where unions held the country to ransom, at least we got away from it all for a few months and did what we were properly trained for, not supporting winging civvies :angry:


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## Scouser (Oct 19, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			Pack in you, people will start thinking that people with Liverpool connections are argumentative!

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Not argumentative... But if people make stupid sweeping statements and then deny them... I feel it's polite to point the issue out when it is denied...


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## Scouser (Oct 19, 2014)

Scouser said:



			Not argumentative... But if people make stupid sweeping statements and then deny them... I feel it's polite to point the issue out when it is denied...
		
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Anyway it all boils down to the private sector being jealous of us well to do rich,  money grabbing,  plenty of holiday taking,  16 hour working week spoilt brats with a golden pension pot being jealous of us  *















*Tongue firmly in cheek


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2014)

Scouser said:



			So now firemen are greedy because they work 2 jobs..... I wish people would just go on the dole fancy working two jobs and being described as greed...  I had three jobs not so long ago... I must be an absolute disgrace
		
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I suggest you re-read it.  I said:

"We are all aware that they do a great job when called for and receive a very good package to do it but they do get a fair amount of time off, also it's not just about 'need' it's also about 'making money' just like greedy employers, bankers and MPs do."

My point is that IMO the other jobs they do is not due to them being so poorly paid they 'Need' to do it.   It's more because they want to earn more money, just like the other groups do that are held out as greedy by the general public.  IMO, earning money is OK, if you work for it but dont make it sound like you are getting a poor deal.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I suggest you re-read it.  I said:

"We are all aware that they do a great job when called for and receive a very good package to do it but they do get a fair amount of time off, also it's not just about 'need' it's also about 'making money' just like greedy employers, bankers and MPs do."

My point is that IMO the other jobs they do is not due to them being so poorly paid they 'Need' to do it.   It's more because they want to earn more money, just like the other groups do that are held out as greedy by the general public.  IMO, earning money is OK, if you work for it but dont make it sound like you are getting a poor deal.
		
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Maybe they need the second job to ensure they are ok living ? as opposed to out of greed for more money - very judgemental.


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## Liverbirdie (Oct 19, 2014)

Scouser said:



			Not argumentative... But if people make stupid sweeping statements and then deny them... I feel it's polite to point the issue out when it is denied...
		
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I know mate, I was only joking.I agree with you btw.


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Maybe they need the second job to ensure they are ok living ? as opposed to out of greed for more money - very judgemental.
		
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You just dont seem to, or want to follow my meaning, so not much point in me explaining it again


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 19, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			You just dont seem to, or want to follow my meaning, so not much point of me explaining it again
		
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You appear to be saying that fireman get a second job to gain more money not out of need but out of greed - is that wrong ?


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## Scouser (Oct 19, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I suggest you re-read it.  I said:

"We are all aware that they do a great job when called for and receive a very good package to do it but they do get a fair amount of time off, also it's not just about 'need' it's also about 'making money' just like greedy employers, bankers and MPs do."

My point is that IMO the other jobs they do is not due to them being so poorly paid they 'Need' to do it.   It's more because they want to earn more money, just like the other groups do that are held out as greedy by the general public.  IMO, earning money is OK, if you work for it but dont make it sound like you are getting a poor deal.
		
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"My point is that IMO the other jobs they do is not due to them being so poorly paid they 'Need' to do it. It's more because they want to earn more money, just like the other groups do that are held out as greedy by the general public. "

And again u call them greedy? And again deny it


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You appear to be saying that fireman get a second job to gain more money not out of need but out of greed - is that wrong ?
		
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Yes, it is.     I said they do it for additional income and thats OK, but dont make out its because they are underpaid.    The additional bit about Bankers and employers was that when they do it they are called greedy.


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## Scouser (Oct 19, 2014)

Liverbirdie said:



			I know mate, I was only joking.I agree with you btw.
		
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I know... I still love  u


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## Scouser (Oct 19, 2014)

Scouser said:



			I know... I still love  u
		
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According to Berkshire fire service a trainee starts on Just under 22 and full firefighter not sure how long after that is is just under 30. A stay at home partner 2 kids...  Not a lot to bring a family up on.... Admittedly 30 isn't bad but not a massive amount in the circumstances described


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 19, 2014)

As I already said, a brand new qualified nurse on a band 5 agenda for change salary is Â£21,478. For someone coming off three years at university, that isn't a huge amount. Especially when you scan the local government jobs on offer in local councils around here and see that some office based jobs are offering Â£22,000. A disparity but both public sector jobs but which is really "value added"?


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## Scouser (Oct 19, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			As I already said, a brand new qualified nurse on a band 5 agenda for change salary is Â£21,478. For someone coming off three years at university, that isn't a huge amount. Especially when you scan the local government jobs on offer in local councils around here and see that some office based jobs are offering Â£22,000. A disparity but both public sector jobs but which is really "value added"?
		
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Hommer you at least need to expand on the office based job....


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2014)

Scouser said:



			"My point is that IMO the other jobs they do is not due to them being so poorly paid they 'Need' to do it. It's more because they want to earn more money, just like the other groups do that are held out as greedy by the general public. "

And again u call them greedy? And again deny it
		
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For the very final time.   I am saying that its wrong to call any of these people Greedy, be they Firemen, bankers or companies.    If you dont get it then I can't explain it any simpler.


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## bluewolf (Oct 19, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			The tax they pay comes out of the money taken from private sector taxes that fund their services, it's not from increased GDP.  Increased wages can only be funded from savings or increased tax.

Your guarded statement is probably referring to State Retirement Pensions.   I would agree that savings could be made there in the form of reducing some benefits to better off pensioners.   As the basic pension is tied to the number of years NI contributions then I cant see how that can be reduced other than cutting the supplementary top ups but thats a tough call on the lowest paid.
		
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The point I made, and you misunderstood, is that if Private sector wages are rising, then tax revenues from those Private sector tax payers are rising.. Therefore, there is money to pay the 1% rise that was recommended by an independent body..

And yes, I was referring to Pensions. The single largest drain on the economy.. Maybe they should go out and get a job? I know several pensioners.. Loads of time off.. Always at the golf club.. Driving their Ford Focus at 25mph through the country.. Blah, blah, blah.. Guaranteed Pension increase based on the average wage increase or CPI.. Whichever is higher... Maybe the Public sector just need a better pressure group..


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## Scouser (Oct 19, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			For the very final time.   I am saying that its wrong to call any of these people Greedy, be they Firemen, bankers or companies.    If you dont get it then I can't explain it any simpler.
		
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That clears that up then...  But u can see how both your comments were misconstrued


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 19, 2014)

Scouser said:



			Hommer you at least need to expand on the office based job....
		
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Picked one from jobsgopublic site based in Reading as its salient to the newly qualified nurses joining the hospital

http://powered.jobsgopublic.com/rea...27/from/17was0ijqg3qve/2/of/3/opening_at/desc


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			The point I made, and you misunderstood, is that if Private sector wages are rising, then tax revenues from those Private sector tax payers are rising.. Therefore, there is money to pay the 1% rise that was recommended by an independent body..

And yes, I was referring to Pensions. The single largest drain on the economy.. Maybe they should go out and get a job? I know several pensioners.. Loads of time off.. Always at the golf club.. Driving their Ford Focus at 25mph through the country.. Blah, blah, blah.. Guaranteed Pension increase based on the average wage increase or CPI.. Whichever is higher... Maybe the Public sector just need a better pressure group..
		
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So do you suggest that State age pensions be taken away?   People have paid NI for over 30 years for these pensions, what if yours was not given to you?   It's a bit like saying we should not pay any public sector pensions to save money!

I agree that savings could be made with Winter fuel allowances, Free TV licenses and bus passes for the better off.  Many pensioners are poor though, it's not easy living on Â£100 a week.


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## bluewolf (Oct 19, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			So do you suggest that State age pensions be taken away?   People have paid NI for over 30 years for these pensions, what if your was not given to you?   It's a bit like saying we should not pay any public sector pensions to save money!
		
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I most certainly am not suggesting that. I was using some of the more crass, cold and uninformed comments that have been made regarding the entire Public sector and highlighting how they could be used to attack the largest single cost to the taxpayer.. Yet no one is attacking the Pension costs.. No one is claiming that they are unaffordable...Strange..


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			I most certainly am not suggesting that. I was using some of the more crass, cold and uninformed comments that have been made regarding the entire Public sector and highlighting how they could be used to attack the largest single cost to the taxpayer.. Yet no one is attacking the Pension costs.. No one is claiming that they are unaffordable...Strange..
		
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Well I guess it's that just about everyone will get it and probably feel that we all need to look after our elderly.   As I have previously said, I can see there are acceptable ways to reduce the cost.


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## bluewolf (Oct 19, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Well I guess it's that just about everyone will get it .
		
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Right, so you hypothesize that no one complains about the cost of pensions because they all will benefit from it. Ergo, People are complaining about the cost of the recommended pay rises for the Public Sector because they will not benefit from them...

So, in summary, you believe that it's jealousy? Not that they believe it's unaffordable? 

Note, I appreciate that I have selectively quoted your post, but I can't really argue with the other 2 points..


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Right, so you hypothesize that no one complains about the cost of pensions because they all will benefit from it. Ergo, People are complaining about the cost of the recommended pay rises for the Public Sector because they will not benefit from them...

So, in summary, you believe that it's jealousy? Not that they believe it's unaffordable? 

Note, I appreciate that I have selectively quoted your post, but I can't really argue with the other 2 points..
		
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Your extrapolations are not really what I was suggesting.  But: Hey Ho!  I am getting used to people taking me out of context.


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## bluewolf (Oct 19, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Your extrapolations are not really what I was suggesting.  But: Hey Ho!  I am getting used to people taking me out of context.
		
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Maybe that's because you're not sure what your context is? Your post couldn't have been any clearer.. People don't moan about pensions because they benefit from them.. The only extrapolation possible is the one I made..

Anyhoo, this thread has actually been interesting and fun. not nearly as much pettiness and moaning as other threads..


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Maybe that's because you're not sure what your context is? Your post couldn't have been any clearer.. People don't moan about pensions because they benefit from them.. The only extrapolation possible is the one I made..

Anyhoo, this thread has actually been interesting and fun. not nearly as much pettiness and moaning as other threads..
		
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Well, as long as they keep paying mine!   I'm not biased mind you


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## bluewolf (Oct 19, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			Well, as long as they keep paying mine!   I'm not biased mind you 

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Long way from mine yet, but I don't mind topping yours up...


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## SocketRocket (Oct 19, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Long way from mine yet, but I don't mind topping yours up...

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Dont worry, I am still doing it myself.


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## hovis (Oct 20, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



*Most people don't have time or energy to do a second job*.    I know a number of Firefighters that find time to run their own business    We are all aware that they do a great job when called for and receive a very good package to do it *but they do get a fair amount of time off*, *also it's not just about 'need' it's also about 'making money' just like greedy **employers, bankers and MPs do*.
		
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of the 48 fire fighters I work with one has a second job.  he only has a second job because his ex wife took him to the cleaners and the Â£1580 he takes home a month doesn't cut it.  to state that this is greed is nonsense.  I have seen the poor bloke spend his last night shift on working job all night leave to stack shelf's at Tesco's.   the second job thing finished for fire fighters when we lost our beds on station 7 years ago.  now we are up all night 

and as for a fair amount of time off....I work 45 hours per week.  I am just about to finish my last night shift and go to bed.  then I'm off for three days.  not a great deal of time off i'd say considering I haven't seen my family in 4 days.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2014)

hovis said:



			of the 48 fire fighters I work with one has a second job.  he only has a second job because his ex wife took him to the cleaners and the Â£1580 he takes home a month doesn't cut it.  to state that this is greed is nonsense.  I have seen the poor bloke spend his last night shift on working job all night leave to stack shelf's at Tesco's.   the second job thing finished for fire fighters when we lost our beds on station 7 years ago.  now we are up all night 

and as for a fair amount of time off....I work 45 hours per week.  I am just about to finish my last night shift and go to bed.  then I'm off for three days.  not a great deal of time off i'd say considering I haven't seen my family in 4 days.
		
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Being off for three days isn't a bad deal at all when you consider most have just the two off


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## SocketRocket (Oct 20, 2014)

hovis said:



			of the 48 fire fighters I work with one has a second job.  he only has a second job because his ex wife took him to the cleaners and the Â£1580 he takes home a month doesn't cut it.  to state that this is greed is nonsense.  I have seen the poor bloke spend his last night shift on working job all night leave to stack shelf's at Tesco's.   the second job thing finished for fire fighters when we lost our beds on station 7 years ago.  now we are up all night 

and as for a fair amount of time off....I work 45 hours per week.  I am just about to finish my last night shift and go to bed.  then I'm off for three days.  not a great deal of time off i'd say considering I haven't seen my family in 4 days.
		
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How much time do you spend sleeping on those shifts?


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## bluewolf (Oct 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Being off for three days isn't a bad deal at all when you consider most have just the two off
		
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Less than 3 off when working nights is no good at all. The first day off is spent in bed, the next 2 days are spent fighting jetlag so you can be part of a family, then you're back on shift.. I've worked nights for 8 years. The constant change in sleeping patterns causes numerous issues, not least of which is the impact it has on your health, with one survey quoting a decrease in life expectancy of up to 10 years. 

Oh, and please don't be glib and say "get another job then". Some people have no option but to work nights. Jobs just aren't available on Days..


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## bluewolf (Oct 20, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			How much time do you spend sleeping on those shifts?
		
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hovis said:



			the second job thing finished for fire fighters when we lost our beds on station 7 years ago.  now we are up all night
		
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Your answer was in his original post..:thup:


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Less than 3 off when working nights is no good at all. The first day off is spent in bed, the next 2 days are spent fighting jetlag so you can be part of a family, then you're back on shift.. I've worked nights for 8 years. The constant change in sleeping patterns causes numerous issues, not least of which is the impact it has on your health, with one survey quoting a decrease in life expectancy of up to 10 years. 

Oh, and please don't be glib and say "get another job then". Some people have no option but to work nights. Jobs just aren't available on Days..
		
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I have worked night shifts for over 20 years never really had jet lag issues - first day off I make sure I don't sleep past 12 or play golf in the morning then a nap in the afternoon


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## Birchy (Oct 20, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Less than 3 off when working nights is no good at all. The first day off is spent in bed, the next 2 days are spent fighting jetlag so you can be part of a family, then you're back on shift.. *I've worked nights for 8 years*. The constant change in sleeping patterns *causes numerous issues*, not least of which is the impact it has on your health, with one survey quoting a decrease in life expectancy of up to 10 years. 

Oh, and please don't be glib and say "get another job then". Some people have no option but to work nights. Jobs just aren't available on Days..
		
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That explains a lot 

To be fair working nights is a tough gig. Ive never done it but a mate of mine has and he is all over the place with it. Wide awake at night and tired in the day and just never feeling "right". I think it can really take its toll on people mentally and it wouldn't surprise me if theres high amount of people with depression off it etc.

He has no real option of getting another job as where he lives there isn't any civilisation for miles.

People in these jobs need to be looked after imo.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Your answer was in his original post..:thup:
		
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Been at a number of fire stations where no beds doesnt automatically mean no sleeping 

I have no issues at all if they sleep on nights


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## bluewolf (Oct 20, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			How much time do you spend sleeping on those shifts?
		
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Liverpoolphil said:



			I have worked night shifts for over 20 years never really had jet lag issues - first day off I make sure I don't sleep past 12 or play golf in the morning then a nap in the afternoon
		
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I never sleep past 11, too much to do in the day. A nap at about 6 sees me right. The Jetlag issues arise when on your first day off you have to get up to take the kids to school, or take them to football or ballet class. Days out with the family mean that you have to get up 3-4 hours earlier than usual. Your sleeping pattern means that you're not going to get to sleep till well after midnight, no matter how much you want to.. Any permanent night rota that contains only 2 nights off is unusual, and cannot be compared to a day rota..


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## Fish (Oct 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I have worked night shifts for over 20 years never really had jet lag issues - first day off I make sure I don't sleep past 12 or play golf in the morning then a nap in the afternoon
		
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is there anything you haven't done?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2014)

Fish said:



			is there anything you haven't done?
		
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Plenty - great post though :thup:


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## G1BB0 (Oct 20, 2014)

I think pay rises should not be expected and taken as a bonus if one is awarded!

this is regardless of sector etc. If my cost of living goes up and no pay rise then I cut back on the luxuries to afford the necesseties.

Already cut back on mobile, car and sat tv (ok I get it free working for sky). I shop wisely and try not to splash out on things I want but dont need.

live to your means, if that involves cutting back then do so!


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			they dont want to change jobs. They want fair recognition for the job that they already do. Is that not what you want? Or do you change job every year?

this glib recital of the old "change jobs if you don't like it" is particularly pathetic and shows no recognition of either the job market or jobs which could be considered a "calling". It also plays particularly well into the hands of the Right Wing Political Establishment who are particularly fond of not practising what they preach.
		
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Actually, many doctors, particularly GPs *do *want to change jobs, to either the same job in Oz/NZ, no job at all (retire early) or reduce their hours. They are not mainly motivated by salary, but getting screwed on salary and pension when the demands (both in quantity and nature) are increasing exponentially is adding insult to injury.


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## hovis (Oct 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Being off for three days isn't a bad deal at all when you consider most have just the two off
		
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If your talking about most then most dont work 13hour shifts


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## bluewolf (Oct 20, 2014)

G1BB0 said:



			I think pay rises should not be expected and taken as a bonus if one is awarded!

this is regardless of sector etc. If my cost of living goes up and no pay rise then I cut back on the luxuries to afford the necesseties.

Already cut back on mobile, car and sat tv (ok I get it free working for sky). I shop wisely and try not to splash out on things I want but dont need.

live to your means, if that involves cutting back then do so!
		
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I bet John Ball and the rest of the leaders of the peasants revolt are chuffed to bits by your attitiude... "Please Sir, whip me Sir, can I bring my 8 year old to work Sir.."

Thank God there aren't too many wanabee Serfs like you around..


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## hovis (Oct 20, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			How much time do you spend sleeping on those shifts?
		
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I work at a busy station so rarely get to sleep. Also depends on your boss.   I work with a top bloke who wouldn't mind me dozzing off infront of my computer.   I can only speak for Staffordshire when i say sleeping is not accepted


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## jp5 (Oct 20, 2014)

G1BB0 said:



*I think pay rises should not be expected and taken as a bonus if one is awarded!*

this is regardless of sector etc. If my cost of living goes up and no pay rise then I cut back on the luxuries to afford the necesseties.

Already cut back on mobile, car and sat tv (ok I get it free working for sky). I shop wisely and try not to splash out on things I want but dont need.

live to your means, if that involves cutting back then do so!
		
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If that theory were true we'd all be earning a few pounds per week. 

There is a such a thing as inflation.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 20, 2014)

I work in the private sector in a small company. There is a finite pot of cash as times are hard. We can have big increases and lose a member of staff or low increases and everyone keeps their job. Thankfully our staff are not selfish and everyone chose the latter option. The public sector seems to think this does not apply to them, that cash is endless. It is not, wise up.

One area that bemuses me, totally alien to the private sector, is the incremental pay increase. No matter the situation, no matter how poor you are at your job you get an automatic pay increase because of years served. Crazy system. Apparently though incremental increases are not seen as pay rises by the unions though. Bonkers. The practices that exist in the public sector are simply not acceptable to those outside of it any more.


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## hovis (Oct 20, 2014)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I work in the private sector in a small company. There is a finite pot of cash as times are hard. We can have big increases and lose a member of staff or low increases and everyone keeps their job. Thankfully our staff are not selfish and everyone chose the latter option. The public sector seems to think this does not apply to them, that cash is endless. It is not, wise up.

One area that bemuses me, totally alien to the private sector, is the incremental pay increase. No matter the situation, no matter how poor you are at your job you get an automatic pay increase because of years served. Crazy system. Apparently though incremental increases are not seen as pay rises by the unions though. Bonkers. The practices that exist in the public sector are simply not acceptable to those outside of it any more.
		
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In part i agree with what you say but in ever single case i can think of all of my "private" sector workers have had an "inline with inflation pay rise"  my wife just had a 4% par rise. 
I'm not saying all private sectors are getting payrises but i have had 2% over 6 years.  With the rate of inflation this is a substantial pay cut


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## bluewolf (Oct 20, 2014)

Lord Tyrion said:



			One area that bemuses me, totally alien to the private sector, is the incremental pay increase. No matter the situation, no matter how poor you are at your job you get an automatic pay increase because of years served. Crazy system. Apparently though incremental increases are not seen as pay rises by the unions though. Bonkers. The practices that exist in the public sector are simply not acceptable to those outside of it any more.
		
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I suspect that you don't really understand it though. When a Nurse (for example) moves up a band (promotion), their pay initially starts at the top of the previous band (this means that if they were already at the top of the previous band, then they wouldn't get any pay increase). Every year they then receive a pay increase. The pay increases stop when they are at the top of their new Band. 

One way to look at it would be a staggered pay rise for a promotion. I suspect that is something you wouldn't be happy accepting? Here, have a promotion, but we won't be paying you any more right now. But don't worry, you'll eventually receive your pay rise when you've completed 5 years (for example) in your new job..

Apologies if I have slightly mis-represented the situation. It's not an area I'm overly familiar with..


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2014)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I work in the private sector in a small company. There is a finite pot of cash as times are hard. We can have big increases and lose a member of staff or low increases and everyone keeps their job. Thankfully our staff are not selfish and everyone chose the latter option. The public sector seems to think this does not apply to them, that cash is endless. It is not, wise up.

One area that bemuses me, totally alien to the private sector, is the incremental pay increase. No matter the situation, no matter how poor you are at your job you get an automatic pay increase because of years served. Crazy system. Apparently though incremental increases are not seen as pay rises by the unions though. Bonkers. The practices that exist in the public sector are simply not acceptable to those outside of it any more.
		
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Let me clue you in. Incremental pay rises (or pay scales) are in place to allow the employer to start people on low salaries with the prospect of future rises. As a junior hospital doctor, I was on such pay rises and worked 80-100 hours a week, 40-60 of which were paid at less than half of the basic rate when others were getting double or triple time for the same hours. I remember one New Years Eve handing a patient over to a porter for transfer to the ward at about 10 to midnight and the porter said 'Bummer working tonight, eh, Doc? Still at least we're getting triple time'. 'No, mate', I explained, 'I'm getting 38% of my basic rate'. 'Bloody Hell, doc, I thought you lot were meant to be smart'. The pay progression partly balances that and other anomalies. Don't forget that public sector workers don't get bonuses or share options either. They get a good pension, but that is being eroded fast now too.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2014)

hovis said:



			If your talking about most then most dont work 13hour shifts
		
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So you do 52 hours in 4 days ?


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 20, 2014)

Bonuses and share options in the private sector. Blimey, where can they be found? Too much tv watching going on there. Not reality. 

Private sector pay in terms of overtime etc is similar to the public sector in terms of a difference between salaried and hourly pay. I have always been salaried so any extra hours worked are because they are either expected or required on occasions as part of the job. No extra pay there. Those on hourly pay or those where overtime has been traditional, tanker drivers for example, would be similar to the porter. Similarities in both areas.

I don't buy the incremental set up. It benefits lazy workers and management. You wont find that system anywhere outside the public sector.

I wont get started on pensions. That is a slam dunker.


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## DCB (Oct 20, 2014)

I started work in the Public sector many years ago. The pay may not have been top notch but the various enhancements, pension, annual leave etc were good at that time. Moved out and worked in the Private sector for twenty years and whilst the money could be good, it was a case of you go where the work is. I worked laterly for a good employer, work hard, play hard, but that soon takes it's toll. I eventually got fed up of working away, travelling early and late, missing school shows, concerts etc. Moved back into the Public sector and although the salary isn't as good, and the pension plan isn't as good as it used to be, there are still plenty of plus points for working here. Everyone makes their own choice knowing what works best for them. There's green on both sides of the fence if you look close enough


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## bluewolf (Oct 20, 2014)

DCB said:



			I started work in the Public sector many years ago. The pay may not have been top notch but the various enhancements, pension, annual leave etc were good at that time. Moved out and worked in the Private sector for twenty years and whilst the money could be good, it was a case of you go where the work is. I worked laterly for a good employer, work hard, play hard, but that soon takes it's toll. I eventually got fed up of working away, travelling early and late, missing school shows, concerts etc. Moved back into the Public sector and although the salary isn't as good, and the pension plan isn't as good as it used to be, there are still plenty of plus points for working here. Everyone makes their own choice knowing what works best for them. There's green on both sides of the fence if you look close enough 

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Well put Davey..

I'm tickled by the amount of people who think that the Public Sector is some sort of Utopia where every whim is catered for.. Yet most of them don't work in it.. Maybe we have a lot of masochists on this forum ..

Oh, and I work in the Private Sector. My wife works in the Public Sector.. I know where I would prefer to be, and I'm in it..


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2014)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Bonuses and share options in the private sector. Blimey, where can they be found? Too much tv watching going on there. Not reality. 

Private sector pay in terms of overtime etc is similar to the public sector in terms of a difference between salaried and hourly pay. I have always been salaried so any extra hours worked are because they are either expected or required on occasions as part of the job. No extra pay there. Those on hourly pay or those where overtime has been traditional, tanker drivers for example, would be similar to the porter. Similarities in both areas.

I don't buy the incremental set up. It benefits lazy workers and management. You wont find that system anywhere outside the public sector.

I wont get started on pensions. That is a slam dunker.
		
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 I have worked in the private sector for almost 20 years. Not all jobs in the private sector get bonuses or share options, but many do. Maybe you need to get a new job if you get neither. 

Tesco is the second largest employer in the FTSE list of companies. They give annual bonuses and a discounted share purchase scheme. 

HSBC is the fourth largest employer and offer bonuses and discounted share purchase schemes. 

Barclays, RBS, Sainsburys and Morrisons are all in the top 10 and all offer some or both of those too. As do most of the other banks, almost all the pharma companies and many retailers. 

Don't buy the pay progression argument if you don't want to. But when times are good and companies are profitable, salary increases in the private sector exceed those in the public sector.


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## bluewolf (Oct 20, 2014)

Ethan said:



			I have worked in the private sector for almost 20 years. Not all jobs in the private sector get bonuses or share options, but many do. Maybe you need to get a new job if you get neither. 

Tesco is the second largest employer in the FTSE list of companies. They give annual bonuses and a discounted share purchase scheme. 

HSBC is the fourth largest employer and offer bonuses and discounted share purchase schemes. 

Barclays, RBS, Sainsburys and Morrisons are all in the top 10 and all offer some or both of those too. As do most of the other banks, almost all the pharma companies and many retailers. 

Don't buy the pay progression argument if you don't want to. But when times are good and companies are profitable, salary increases in the private sector exceed those in the public sector.
		
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Unfortunately Ethan, it appears you are trying to open a locked door...


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Unfortunately Ethan, it appears you are trying to open a locked door...
		
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Oh, I know, but the comments are really meant for others interested in the debate.


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## hovis (Oct 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			So you do 52 hours in 4 days ?
		
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48 hours in 4 days consisting of Two 11 hour shifts followed by two 13 hour shifts.  Other stations do 4x12 hour shifts


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2014)

hovis said:



			48 hours in 4 days consisting of Two 11 hour shifts followed by two 13 hour shifts.  Other stations do 4x12 hour shifts
		
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11 hour days and 13 hour nights ? 

RAF was 10 - 14 or 12/12 

14 hours was just too long


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## hovis (Oct 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			11 hour days and 13 hour nights ? 

RAF was 10 - 14 or 12/12 

14 hours was just too long
		
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You've got it mate. However on the horizon soon is day shifts only for all firemen and night cover is given by retained fireman on call.  
Whats scary is they only have 1 hour training per week and have 6 minutes to get into the fire station.  Bet they dont tell the rate payers that bomb shell.

Personally i think the public deserve an immediate response to a 999 call. 6 minutes to get in and another 3 to get the engine out the door is outrageous


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2014)

Both the nearest Fire stations to here are on call at night from 11 I believe ?


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## hovis (Oct 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Both the nearest Fire stations to here are on call at night from 11 I believe ?
		
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You must live in a shire low population area?  The above is coming to met area's too!


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2014)

hovis said:



			You must live in a shire low population area?  The above is coming to met area's too!
		
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As with cuts everywhere to emergency services and military etc I just hope it doesn't cost lives


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 20, 2014)

With ambulance stations, police stations and fire stations being closed, there is an inevitability that someone somewhere will be injured or die because of response times but I've little doubt there will be public platitudes and nothing will change


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 20, 2014)

Ethan said:



			Don't buy the pay progression argument if you don't want to. But when times are good and companies are profitable, salary increases in the private sector exceed those in the public sector.
		
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That is quite true but the economy has had so many troughs recently that the attraction there is not so great. I am not one who says private = great, public = bad, but I really can't be doing with constant whingeing. There are pluses and minuses on both sides. The private sector salaries can be slightly higher, barely so now, but job security in the public sector far outstrips that in the private sector. When times are hard in the private sector you don't get 1% increases, you get made redundant. 

You make your choice in work, take the career path you want but please don't bleat about it looking for sympathy. That is not a comment based on the posts made here but a general one.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2014)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That is quite true but the economy has had so many troughs recently that the attraction there is not so great. I am not one who says private = great, public = bad, but I really can't be doing with constant whingeing. There are pluses and minuses on both sides. The private sector salaries can be slightly higher, barely so now, but job security in the public sector far outstrips that in the private sector. When times are hard in the private sector you don't get 1% increases, you get made redundant. 

You make your choice in work, take the career path you want but please don't bleat about it looking for sympathy. That is not a comment based on the posts made here but a general one.
		
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Certainly been a great amount of redundancies in the public sector over the last 4 years 

And when times are hard no pay rises have been given whilst inflation rises


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 20, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Certainly been a great amount of redundancies in the public sector over the last 4 years 

And when times are hard no pay rises have been given whilst inflation rises
		
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The numbers don't compare. Put in a private sector boss, ask him/her to balance the books at a council, public body etc and then watch the blood flow. What has occurred so far has just been skimming the surface. Painful for all concerned but still skimming. The public sector is still bloated and inefficient in too many areas. Not all but many. The bloodletting has already occurred in the private sector when the last recession started so those companies left are already pretty lean. Job security in the long term is one of the great benefits of the public sector.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 20, 2014)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The numbers don't compare. Put in a private sector boss, ask him/her to balance the books at a council, public body etc and then watch the blood flow. What has occurred so far has just been skimming the surface. Painful for all concerned but still skimming. The public sector is still bloated and inefficient in too many areas. Not all but many. The bloodletting has already occurred in the private sector when the last recession started so those companies left are already pretty lean. Job security in the long term is one of the great benefits of the public sector.
		
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The Armed Forces has been gutted yet work load has increased 

The ambulance service has been dramatically reduced but the need still increases 

The police force has been gutted yet crime still increases

Fire stations closed 

Hospital staff reduced whilst departments get closed 

These are critical services that have been hit hard over the last 5 years - life saving services that aren't replaced


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 20, 2014)

Lord Tyrion said:



			The numbers don't compare. Put in a private sector boss, ask him/her to balance the books at a council, public body etc and then watch the blood flow. What has occurred so far has just been skimming the surface. Painful for all concerned but still skimming. The public sector is still bloated and inefficient in too many areas. Not all but many. The bloodletting has already occurred in the private sector when the last recession started so those companies left are already pretty lean. Job security in the long term is one of the great benefits of the public sector.
		
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No sure there is job security in the public sector. When I joined the civil service in the early 80's it was seen as a job for life. Now we've had wards at the hospital closed. Admin jobs have been slashed and services stopped or reduced so from a hospital setting I don't agree that there is still security anymore


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## MadAdey (Oct 20, 2014)

Fish said:



			I had my leave cancelled in 77 due to Fireman strike

I had my leave cancelled due to Bin men strike in 78/9

I had my leave cancelled due to Tanker Drivers strike in 79

I had my leave cancelled in 79 & 81 due to Ambulance strike

Good old James Callaghan and the Labour party (winter of discontent) were responsible, and on 2 occasions I had just finished a tour in NI and still wasn't allowed home and had to be on stand-by, I hate them all, irrelevant of their wants, because it was at the expense of mine!

The Falklands was a great distraction to the crap that was and had gone on over those few years where unions held the country to ransom, at least we got away from it all for a few months and did what we were properly trained for, not supporting winging civvies :angry:
		
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Thanks to the firemen I did not have my leave taken away from me, but I actually lost money, about Â£8000 it was. Defence review with the new pay scheme was in the process of being implemented when I was back in training for 18 months. After that course I am meant to recieve a huge pay rise due to a change in job and responsibility levels. Because I left training late because of having to do fire fighting duties, I left after the new pay scheme was introduced. 

So instead of graduating and getting my good wages, that would have transferred me onto pay level 9 when pay 2000 got introduced, I left under pay 2000 and was on level 5 wages. So public sector workers need to realise how their actions actually affect other peoples lives. 

More money in the tax pot to pay them higher wages = higher taxes for all


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## Fish (Oct 21, 2014)

http://www.coxcostello.co.uk/news-i...al&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 21, 2014)

Some interesting stuff on here.
All those folk saying that they have not had a pay rise for years must be telling porkies.

An NHS strike interview confirmed that an experienced midwife earned a basic Â£35k pa. [her reluctant words when questioned]
Compared to the 'average' I would say that she is well paid

As expected huge gap between London and the UK regions.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_Kingdom


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 21, 2014)

I have had one pay rise in the last 5 years - when I left the public sector to work in the private sector another pay rise is due


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## bluewolf (Oct 21, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Some interesting stuff on here.
All those folk saying that they have not had a pay rise for years must be telling porkies.

An NHS strike interview confirmed that an experienced midwife earned a basic Â£35k pa. [her reluctant words when questioned]
Compared to the 'average' I would say that she is well paid

As expected huge gap between London and the UK regions.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_in_the_United_Kingdom

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Do you think that 35k is over the top for the people who deliver our children? I'm not claiming that it's a poor wage, but are you saying that a skilled profession such as midwifery should pay less? It also appears that you're saying that because they're already on a decent wage, then they shouldn't really expect a pay rise.. Does that logic transfer to all other "highly paid" professions?

Apologies if I've misinterpreted the tone of your post..


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## hovis (Oct 21, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Do you think that 35k is over the top for the people who deliver our children? I'm not claiming that it's a poor wage, but are you saying that a skilled profession such as midwifery should pay less? It also appears that you're saying that because they're already on a decent wage, then they shouldn't really expect a pay rise.. Does that logic transfer to all other "highly paid" professions?

Apologies if I've misinterpreted the tone of your post..
		
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I for one thought midwifes where over paid until my wife gave birth. These people are worth their weight in gold and do an amazing job.   Bankers say " you have to pay big to get the best"  i personly think 35k for a midwife is a steal.  Oh and 35k is a senior midwife.   My bosses wife just qualified on 28k


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## bluewolf (Oct 21, 2014)

hovis said:



			I for one thought midwifes where over paid until my wife gave birth. These people are worth their weight in gold and do an amazing job.   Bankers say " you have to pay big to get the best"  i personly think 35k for a midwife is a steal.  Oh and 35k is a senior midwife.   My bosses wife just qualified on 28k
		
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I agree mate. We had an experienced Irish Midwife when my wife was admitted and our son was born 1 month prem. That woman made my life a misery for the 2 weeks my wife was in hospital. I wouldn't have changed a thing though.. I still flinch when I hear a strong Dublin accent..


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 21, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Do you think that 35k is over the top for the people who deliver our children? I'm not claiming that it's a poor wage, but are you saying that a skilled profession such as midwifery should pay less? It also appears that you're saying that because they're already on a decent wage, then they shouldn't really expect a pay rise.. Does that logic transfer to all other "highly paid" professions?

Apologies if I've misinterpreted the tone of your post..
		
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I was quite surprised to find out that a midwife earned a 'basic' Â£35k, but perhaps I am a bit out of touch.
Not being judgemental, I believe most peoples jobs are important, from company chairman to grave digger.
How we value them and pay them is a different issue.


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## bluewolf (Oct 21, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I was quite surprised to find out that a midwife earned a 'basic' Â£35k, but perhaps I am a bit out of touch.
Not being judgemental, I believe most peoples jobs are important, from company chairman to grave digger.
How we value them and pay them is a different issue.
		
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Just my opinion, but I value a Midwife higher than most other professions earning substantially more.. And No, my wife isn't a midwife. .. I wouldn't object to a substantial rise for Midwifes.. :thup:


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## Doon frae Troon (Oct 21, 2014)

Would you pay your golf club head greenkeeper, professional or manager more than Â£28k ?


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 21, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Would you pay your golf club head greenkeeper, professional or manager more than Â£28k ?
		
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Surely that would depend on the club and the job

Struggling to see the comparison or relevance


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## Birchy (Oct 21, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Would you pay your golf club head greenkeeper, professional or manager more than Â£28k ?
		
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Depends on many variables. I wouldn't value them jobs above a midwife though and I play golf regularly but have no kids.

In terms of your average members club I believe the only one of them worth more than 28k on average is the head greenkeeper. Just my opinion though, I have no salary figures to back that up.


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## Fyldewhite (Oct 21, 2014)

This whole debate is classic "divide and conquer" tactics by governments past and present. They like to talk of public sector "benefits" and push the idea that the poor downtrodden private sector are stoically taking the pain for the whole country. In reality, we are all in this together. The fat cats are continually getting richer at the expense of all of us. It is only because the public sector can better mobilise to stand up for themselves that raises the profile of low paid work across the board. Believe me, without these protests over the years we would all be worse off.


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 21, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Would you pay your golf club head greenkeeper, professional or manager more than Â£28k ?
		
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Salary is based on many factors but the key one is supply and demand. Your club will pay whatever salary is required to obtain the people they need. If they want to get a top greenkeeper then they will need to pay more than Â£28k, if they are happy with a new out of college greenkeeper they will pay less. The best in a profession, if demand is high and supply short, get paid more. If there is more supply of people for a job than jobs out there then salaries in that profession is generally low. Skills and scarcity of skills are key.


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## HomerJSimpson (Oct 21, 2014)

hovis said:



			I for one thought midwifes where over paid until my wife gave birth. These people are worth their weight in gold and do an amazing job.   Bankers say " you have to pay big to get the best"  i personly think 35k for a midwife is a steal.  Oh and 35k is a senior midwife.   My bosses wife just qualified on 28k
		
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Newly qualified midwives at our trust go on band 5 same as nurses (Â£21,478) and then go onto band 6 as a qualified midwife (approx.) Â£25,600 (can' remember the exact figure off top of my head) once they have completed key competencies. They then have annual increments dependant on meeting criteria such as being up to date on mandatory training. They wouldn't go to band 7 for a number of years until they have developed skills and experience


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## SocketRocket (Oct 21, 2014)

Fyldewhite said:



			This whole debate is classic "divide and conquer" tactics by governments past and present. They like to talk of public sector "benefits" and push the idea that the poor downtrodden private sector are stoically taking the pain for the whole country. In reality, we are all in this together. The fat cats are continually getting richer at the expense of all of us. It is only because the public sector can better mobilise to stand up for themselves that raises the profile of low paid work across the board. Believe me, without these protests over the years we would all be worse off.
		
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Most people in this country are employed by small to medium companies.  These tend to be employers who  have taken big risks to start up a business and have put their selves and often their houses on the line to finance it.     It can often be very worrying when you have a number of people who rely on you to put money in their bank accounts, especially when times are hard, its also tough telling people that you cant afford a pay rise this year unless you make some people redundant.

I do understand that there are organisations that are greedy and pay silly money to some and peanuts to others but bear in mind there are also a lot of others not in this category.


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## Fish (Oct 21, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			Do you think that 35k is over the top for the people who deliver our children? I'm not claiming that it's a poor wage, but are you saying that a skilled profession such as midwifery should pay less? It also appears that you're saying that because they're already on a decent wage, then they shouldn't really expect a pay rise.. Does that logic transfer to all other "highly paid" professions?

Apologies if I've misinterpreted the tone of your post..
		
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This is considerably cheaper :smirk:


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## Birchy (Oct 21, 2014)

Fish said:



			This is considerably cheaper :smirk:

View attachment 12683

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Don't forget


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## Lord Tyrion (Oct 21, 2014)

You are both bad people but it made me laugh. Should I throw a link to this thread on Netmums. I am sure they would see the funny side :rofl:


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