# Why the R&A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it ?



## Scadge (Jun 20, 2012)

*Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it ?*

I was again depressed by the choice of yet another Scottish venue for the 2016 Open.  I love playing there and the courses are great but 92/140 (66%) have to date been played in Scotland which has only (8.6%) of the population of the UK.  It's a long way for most of the people to go to and clearly not a day trip for most (remember 15m live in London and SE).  

So my view (although you may say its contentious, refer to home of golf, the courses etc) is that clearly the R&A are biased and not so concerned with the popularity and accessibility of the game as they should be and declining popularity will not be good for clubs or bringing on the next Faldo's, Monty's, Woosies or Clarke's.

So what should we do about it ?

First off we need to even the balance by hosting the Open at Portrush and developing a venue in Wales (Royal Porthcawl or Royal St Davids) capable of hosting an Open.  In addition we need to develop more venues in England to reflect the 84% population weighting.

How about the R&A spending some money on Deal or Princes, Saunton, Hillside or somewhere in East Anglia (would/could Hunstanton be big enough) rather than developing the game in China or Outer Mongolia.

Or how about we just continue the endless St Andrews, Muirfield, Carnoustie, Troon, Turnberry until the game becomes something kids once saw on the BBC


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## DCB (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it *

Is this a serious post


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## Scadge (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



DCB said:



			Is this a serious post 

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So how would you feel if the Open was always at Royal St Georges and 50m people lived in Scotland (and I don't mean cramped)


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## sev112 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Lydd ?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Name two good links courses within 2 hour drive from Solihull/London.
There is your answer.
I think Dornoch has probably a better claim than many of the courses you name.

I am not a great fan of Royal Troon, I think it is probably the poorest course of The Open venues.
That said the infrastructure is fantastic. It co-joins four other courses, Is on a mainline train route, ferry route, motorway system and airport.
St Georges is a nightmare to get to.


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## PieMan (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

I believe that the R&A have said previously that they have looked at venues such as Saunton but the infrastructure needed to support all the logistics for the greatest championship in golf just isn't in place, and probably never will be. It's a shame as there are some truly stunning links courses in England, Wales and NI but they're not on the Open rota for that very reason.


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## sev112 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

i woudl respectfully suggest that it is possible to get a boat to most links courses ...


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## Hobbit (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

My first thought when reading the OP was its tradition and history and and and... And on reflection I think you have a valid point. Why not take them to other venues, and why not include past venues that are no longer on the rota, e.g. Prestwick, Musselburgh, Royal Cinque Port and so on. Let's not forget its not that long ago that Carnoustie and Royal Liverpool returned to the rota.

And yes, why not look at some new venues.


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## DCB (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

You just have to look at what needed to be done at Carnoustie to allow the Open to return there in 1999 after a gap of 24 years. Things have been continually improved since that time and Carnoustie is so much the better for it. It takes a lot of money to improve roads, hotels etc and they are all part of taking an event of this size to any venue. no suitable infrastructure = no event.

Anyway, you lot South of the border are holding it again this year aren't you... that's some concession, twice on the trot.... for the first time ever


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## Scadge (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

[
St Georges is a nightmare to get to.[/QUOTE]

It all depends on where you start which is exactly my point millions more people find SW Scotland a nightmare to get to than St George's which is on their doorstep in the south east.  I could take the wife and kids on a wild and windy day trip rather than get fleeced by Ryanair and ridiculously inflated hotel fees.  

As for the points made about good infrastructure at Troon and it being poor elsewhere I would say that if you do what you always do you'll get what you always got, by which I mean that SW Scotland is hardly the centre of the travel and hotel industry and what is there has grown as a result of hosting the Open.  I am sure the same would be true if the R&A had the imagination to go for Porthcawl / Saunton etc and gave a good amount of preparation time.


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## smange (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it *



Scadge said:



			I was again depressed by the choice of yet another Scottish venue for the 2016 Open.  I love playing there and the courses are great but 92/140 (66%) have to date been played in Scotland which has only (8.6%) of the population of the UK.  It's a long way for most of the people to go to and clearly not a day trip for most (remember 15m live in London and SE).  

So my view (although you may say its contentious, refer to home of golf, the courses etc) is that clearly the R&A are biased and not so concerned with the popularity and accessibility of the game as they should be and declining popularity will not be good for clubs or bringing on the next Faldo's, Monty's, Woosies or Clarke's.

So what should we do about it ?

First off we need to even the balance by hosting the Open at Portrush and developing a venue in Wales (Royal Porthcawl or Royal St Davids) capable of hosting an Open.  In addition we need to develop more venues in England to reflect the 84% population weighting.

How about the R&A spending some money on Deal or Princes, Saunton, Hillside or somewhere in East Anglia (would/could Hunstanton be big enough) rather than developing the game in China or Outer Mongolia.

Or how about we just continue the endless St Andrews, Muirfield, Carnoustie, Troon, Turnberry until the game becomes something kids once saw on the BBC 

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Can I ask your feelings on other sports as well then? 

 Do you have an issue with all England Football and Rugby internationals being played in London or even every FA Cup final (except for when Wembley was being renovated) or every Rugby Cup Final?

 Do you have a problem with the British Tennis Open, which has even adopted the name Wimbledon after where its played in London? 

Its not London but Silverstone, home of the British Grand Prix, isnt too far out of London if im not mistaken. 

I notice you fail to mention that Royal St Georges, Royal Liverpool, Royal Lytham & St Annes, Royal Birkdale are regular hosts or it is OK for kids to watch them on the good old BBC

I wont even mention the London Olympics which the British government have overspent billions and billions on whilst trying to convince the whole of Britain that its of great benefit to the country as a whole:mmm:


Are all these things perfectly acceptable to you because they are easily accessable for you.


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## MashieNiblick (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Thought provoking thread.

I think the last "new" course to be added to the rota was Turnberry in 1977. No doubts about whether that was a good decision! It only took a weekend of blazing sun and 2 great players to make it an Open legend. Many people now think it is the best course on the rota.

Is there another Turnberry out there waiting for the chance to become an iconic Open venue in the space of 4 days in July?


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## DCB (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

So currently, The Open is held at St Andrew every five years. St Andrews being the home of the organising body so fair enough. IN a ten year period it's played at St Andrew twice and spread over four English courses and four Scottish courses on the intervening years.  Seems reasonable to me.

Bit like the European Tour being told they need to take The PGA Championship on a bit of a road trip cause only those in the London area get to see it   It's never going to happen.


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## dog377 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



DCB said:



			So currently, The Open is held at St Andrew every five years. St Andrews being the home of the organising body so fair enough. IN a ten year period it's played at St Andrew twice and spread over four English courses and four Scottish courses on the intervening years.  Seems reasonable to me.

Bit like the European Tour being told they need to take The PGA Championship on a bit of a road trip cause only those in the London area get to see it   It's never going to happen.
		
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nuff said - show some respect to the traditions that brought this great game to us.  What a stupid thread to start.  

I'm not saying there are not other courses the Open could be held at but the posts that talk about infrasturcture hit the nail on the head.  If it went to Dornoch all the spectators and TV people and officials and players would have to camp or do a 2 hour each way everyday.  

Inane debate.


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## TheJezster (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

It's not a stupid thread to start in the slightest.  Show some respect to the OP and his opinion!

I'm not saying I entirely agree with it, but perhaps there could be other courses added to the rota.  If, as stated above, its 4 Scottish and 4 English courses + 2 St Andrews every 10 years, that seems fair enough.  Could there not be another group of say, 2-3 courses which could share one spot on the rota going forward?  Like Portrush for example.  You could call it a guest slot on the rota.  Once every 11 years for a guest slot should work shouldnt it?

Why isnt Wentworth for example on there?  Or the Belfry?  Could they not be added as a guest slot?

I also saw an article recently which suggested there could be a 5th major, held exclusively at St Andrews, as the home of golf.  I wouldnt object to that either, it is the home of golf after all.


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## dog377 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

The Open is only played over links courses


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## dog377 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

The open at the Belfry - have you gone stark staring bonkers old bean


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## TheJezster (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



dog377 said:



			The Open is only played over links courses
		
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Didnt know that.  Why?


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## munro007 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

I cant believe this thread. Why must the UK revolve around London England. I would like to see the Open coming to The Renaissance Club North Berwick http://www.trcaa.com/. Another simply stunning course. And at only Â£65,000 joining fee, i will be their one day. lol


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## munro007 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



TheJezster said:



			Didnt know that.  Why?
		
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Thats history fella.


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## dog377 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



TheJezster said:



			Didnt know that.  Why?
		
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I think it's just tradition and if you think about it alot of the game is traditional  I would like to keep it that way,  I'm lucky enough to play my golf on links courses and that is the pure form of golf as it originated.


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## dog377 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



munro007 said:



			I cant believe this thread. Why must the UK revolve around London England. I would like to see the Open coming to The Renaissance Club North Berwick http://www.trcaa.com/. Another simply stunning course. And at only Â£65,000 joining fee, i will be their one day. lol[/QUOTE

Won[t happen it's not a proper links.  Maybe in 2112 (name of a Rush album incidentally)
		
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## ScienceBoy (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



sev112 said:



			Lydd ?
		
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+1 for seeing the pros tackle this, also give the green staff the week off before the event so the course is in its "most difficult" condition


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## munro007 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



dog377 said:





munro007 said:



			I cant believe this thread. Why must the UK revolve around London England. I would like to see the Open coming to The Renaissance Club North Berwick http://www.trcaa.com/. Another simply stunning course. And at only Â£65,000 joining fee, i will be their one day. lol[/QUOTE

Won[t happen it's not a proper links.  Maybe in 2112 (name of a Rush album incidentally)
		
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Its not a links course: 

Very little earth was moved in the construction of the course.  The design embraced the original dunes landscape, typical of true links golf. Tom Doak and his team incorporated these contours into the course while leaving certain significant trees to enhance the beauty and challenges of play.  The course has a truly distinctive style; windswept and open dunes land with trees coming into play on a truly coastal links course in Scotland.
		
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## dog377 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



munro007 said:





dog377 said:



			Its not a links course: 

Very little earth was moved in the construction of the course.  The design embraced the original dunes landscape, typical of true links golf. Tom Doak and his team incorporated these contours into the course while leaving certain significant trees to enhance the beauty and challenges of play.  The course has a truly distinctive style; windswept and open dunes land with trees coming into play on a truly coastal links course in Scotland.
		
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To be fair I've not played it.  I've played at Archerfield though and the turf is not like Muirfield or Gullane  which is just over the fence.  True traditional links have a different turf.  I agree Renaissance is a stunning course but it's a new links and that's like saying you have a new MG Roaster.
		
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## Scadge (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



dog377 said:



			nuff said - show some respect to the traditions that brought this great game to us.  What a stupid thread to start.  

Inane debate.
		
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Pardon me for your superiority.  If we are to only show respect to the traditions of the game then we should only host the Open at Prestwick where it was first held and for a number of years.  As soon as it moved somewhere else then something called change happened, and one of these changes happened to bring St Andrews of all places into the loop.  

I don't believe that the Open should just be within reach of London but I do think the R&A should look to bring the game to all including Northern Ireland, Wales and other parts of England including the East and South West.  I don't agree that half the Opens should be held in area containing less than one tenth of the people but the implication that all of the Scottish Open venues have more tradition than any of the prospects from anywhere else is clearly nonsense.  Furthermore to suggest that SW Scotland or Carnoustie for that matter had great infrastructure without the Open and intervention from the R&A the likes of which they could do elsewhere is quite frankly absurd.  If the debate is indeed inane then you needn't have patronised me with your opinion and I look forward benefiting from your undoubted wisdom on other threads rather than this one going forward.


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## Deke (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

By SW Scotland are you referring to Ayrshire alone or are you including Glasgow?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

I think the Open rota is probably about right given the traditions, infrastructure, course length etc. There probably other courses that deserve to hold the open but without access, viewing for 20,000+ spectators per day, room for the media centre and tented village they arenever going to meet the R&A's strict criteria


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## dog377 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Scadge said:



			I don't believe that the Open should just be within reach of London but I do think the R&A should look to bring the game to all including Northern Ireland, Wales and other parts of England including the East and South West.  I don't agree that half the Opens should be held in area containing less than one tenth of the people.
		
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It's not about where the population are located.  The venues are chosen because of the courses and the test that they are capable of presenting or the part they have played in history.  The history is because the Open has been played there before.  You clearly have a more progressive view and I am at the polar opposite end of the spectrum.  What's good about the forum is that every so often you can have a rant but it's all meant in good spirit.


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## richart (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Personally I would have preferred the Open to go to Royal Portrush or Royal County Down, rather than Royal Liverpool again. Ultimately it should be the quality of the course, and the abilty to hold such a huge event that should be taken into account. Personally I think the Opens held in Scotland are the best ones.

Saunton would have made a superb Open course, but it will never happen.

Interesting thread though, and beats 'what shoes should I buy'.


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## JustOne (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



DCB said:



			Is this a serious post 

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I think it's an excellent post.

Forget all that 'links' crap too. The US Open isn't played on a links course, or the Masters or many decent tourneys.

I've seen enough of Wentworth to get everso slightly bored with it now. Wouldn't mind seeing something at the London club or somewhere near Birmingham/Manchester.


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## dog377 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



JustOne said:



			I think it's an excellent post.

Forget all that 'links' crap too. The US Open isn't played on a links course, or the Masters or many decent tourneys.

I've seen enough of Wentworth to get everso slightly bored with it now. Wouldn't mind seeing something at the London club or somewhere near Birmingham/Manchester.
		
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Oh come on..................


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## USER1999 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Could 'the open' be held on a new links, outside the uk?


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## Scadge (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



dog377 said:



			The venues are chosen because of the courses and the test that they are capable of presenting or the part they have played in history. 

I am at the polar opposite end of the spectrum.  What's good about the forum is that every so often you can have a rant but it's all meant in good spirit.
		
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Rant taken in good spirit - just wanted to bitch back !  

But it's clear there are a number of criteria you could apply - tradition (host at a club that has previously hosted one), great links course (the same reason that brought back Carnoustie and Turnberry could justify hosting at Portrush, Co Down, Porthcawl, Saunton as well as the tradition group), great infrastructure (host near major city or airport e.g. London, Liverpool, Glasgow)... but for me the criteria has to embrace the population and where they are - it needs to be Open to spectators as well as entrants - I love the tradition of the game, I have played all my life, my kids play, our holidays are centred on golf, my father died on a golf course and I want the game to thrive and the Open encourage kids to go and watch and people to play so I'm sorry for me the venues need to better reflect the demographics as they change.


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## dog377 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



murphthemog said:



			Could 'the open' be held on a new links, outside the uk?
		
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Yeah why not play it on the moon - good joke


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## Dodger (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

The opening post and many thereafter have to be the most stupid posts ever posted on here.


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## JustOne (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Dodger said:



			The opening post and many thereafter have to be the most stupid posts ever posted on here.
		
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Is this a Scottish thing again?


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## Dodger (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



JustOne said:



			Is this a Scottish thing again? 

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No,it may be an anti Scottish thing though.:mmm:


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## dog377 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Dodger said:



			The opening post and many thereafter have to be the most stupid posts ever posted on here.
		
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Finally a sane person has arrived.


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## munro007 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



JustOne said:



			Is this a Scottish thing again? 

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I thought it was an london england thing 

We cant help, having all the history, some of the best courses in the world. 

Hay ho, if you have it, flaunt it, i say. :clap:


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## Deke (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Dodger said:



			No,it may be an anti Scottish thing though.:mmm:
		
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I must admit,I get a lot of anti Scottish vibes from this thread too! To imply that SW Scotland would be nothing without the Open being staged there is absurd!


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## USER1999 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



dog377 said:



			Yeah why not play it on the moon - good joke
		
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Why? It's the open, so why does it need to be in the uk? If trumps course happened to be in Mexico, but was deemed the best links course ever, why not hold it?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

A couple of points.........

1)  The Open is ONLY played on traditional links courses so anyone that thinks Wentworth, the Belfry or anywhere else inland is way off the mark.

2)  IF another course is added to the list, I think the most likely venues would be Portrush (apparently already being considered) and the new Trump course, which just so happens to be in.......Scotland!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

There certainly is some drivel on here.
Non more so than the deluded fools who keep referring to St Andrews as 'the home of golf'.

Sadly it does not surprise me that posters who have clearly never been to Scotland making comments that are, to put it politely, 'not properly researched'
Prestwick for The Open rota being a good example.


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## dog377 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



murphthemog said:



			Why? It's the open, so why does it need to be in the uk? If trumps course happened to be in Mexico, but was deemed the best links course ever, why not hold it?
		
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I presume this is just a wind up.  If you play golf and you don't get this then you're missing out on a whole lot of stuff that makes the game so much richer.


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## Scadge (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Deke said:



			I must admit,I get a lot of anti Scottish vibes from this thread too! To imply that SW Scotland would be nothing without the Open being staged there is absurd!
		
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This is just nonsense, nothing anti-Scottish in the slightest - positive about increasing the fairness and accessibility of the Open championship, whereas you might want it to be more of a Scottish Open I happen to disagree.  If you want to interpret it as anti-Scottish it says more about you than it does about the reason I started the thread.  

The simple fact is that when the Open was last staged in Turnberry (for all the so-called infrastructure arguments) 123,000 people attended.  When it was in Birkdale more than 200,000 attended and for all the difficulty of getting to St Georges ca 180,000 showed up - so accessability by definition means nearer to population centres (and by the way I do of course understand that Glasgow is a major city - your earlier note refers).  

I love most of the Scottish venues I just think you can add new venues nearer the mass population the Open serves (I don't see the difference between money being spend on Carnoustie or Turnberry to bring them up to scratch and money being spent in Wales, England or Ireland for the same purpose).  The R&A can rebalance the rota to better reflect both the demography and all corners of the UK and this will do more to bring the game to the people.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

It's the size of the event now, even if you just take the crowds alone which mean venues like Portrush etc will struggle to break onto the rota without significant investment in infrastructure, hotel accommodation etc. As a course it surely ticks all the boxes but without everything else it won't feature


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Scadge

Have you ever been to Saunton? Getting 200,000 people there in a year would be an achievement never mind in a week. Great course(s) that it is, it quite simply couldn't cope with the numbers. Most of the other venues have either good rail or road (or both) links and I'm sure the R&A have explored all the other potential venues in full but they simply can't cope with such a major event.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

I have been attending Opens since 1959 and the one point that no one has mentioned is that quite a lot of UK golfers take a weeks holiday to attend the event. Many return year on year.
I think the OP was thinking about 'day trippers' which I believe are roughly 40% of total spectators.


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## Scadge (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Yes I have been to Saunton a couple of times (was supposed to be going this weekend too - doh !) and I accept that it is difficult to get to now and even given enough time/notice the infrastructure may not be possible but thought it might be worthy of debate in the general sense if not specifically with Saunton in mind.

It seems to me though that a number of people who cite tradition fall back on simple anti-Scottish accusations (which had that been my intention I would have simply joined the independence thread) rather than perhaps explore the possibilities.  

So, I understand that Prestwick isn't now on the rota, but if there had never been any change this is the only course the Open would be played on because it was the first.  Similarly Turnberry wasn't introduced until 1977, more than 100 years after the first Open, so I don't see how adding another course to the rota now is any different - the Open moves on and Saunton is a wonderful golf course, that a dual carriageway or two, elaborate park and ride and a few hotels (Trump or others) could turn into a stunning Open venue (with at least as many paying guests as Turnberry)


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## Deke (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

The simple fact is that there are more quality links courses north of the border.Is it really that hard or expensive to travel up to Scotland from London? There are probably more good links courses in Ireland than England,I think Portrush would be a great choice but then again that would be way more expensive than travelling up north.At the end of the day the quality of course should be the deciding factor,not how near London it is! Who cares how many people turned up at Turnberry,it was a great open with moments of high drama!


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## Scadge (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Deke said:



			The simple fact is that there are more quality links courses north of the border.Is it really that hard or expensive to travel up to Scotland from London? 

yes

There are probably more good links courses in Ireland than England,I think Portrush would be a great choice but then again that would be way more expensive than travelling up north.

Agreed

At the end of the day the quality of course should be the deciding factor,not how near London it is! Who cares how many people turned up at Turnberry,it was a great open with moments of high drama!
		
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It was a great Open for sure we are agreed about that.  But I don't know whether you are saying I'm alright Jack so sod everyone else, or if the point is more general if attendance is unimportant and we can ignore the obvious financial consequences of this then it doesn't matter if it goes to a great course somewhere else that is hard to get to or can't hold the numbers like Deal or Princes which both have been taken off the rota for these reasons.

Also with respect to the point made earlier about week's holiday versus day trippers there is a cause and effect argument here. Of course if you are making a long journey from SE England to Scotland or vice versa you aren't going to do this as a day trip - the week long holiday is a tradition of necessity caused by poor accessibility


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Scadge 
We are talking about 10,000 rooms within 30 miles for the best part of 20 days. Turnberry Hotel has about 100. Hotels are booked up years in advance.

It is a fairly massive operation where the likes of Dornoch and Portrush would not reach the criteria.
This is not something that can just be put up and closed down.


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## JustOne (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Stupid question (having never attended The Open) but was the entry cost the same for Royal St Georges as an event held in Scotland?


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## Scadge (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Doon frae Troon said:



			Scadge 
We are talking about 10,000 rooms within 30 miles for the best part of 20 days. Turnberry Hotel has about 100. Hotels are booked up years in advance.

It is a fairly massive operation where the likes of Dornoch and Portrush would not reach the criteria.
This is not something that can just be put up and closed down.
		
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It's a really fair point, and I accept that the infrastructure is huge (but are you saying Turnberry isn't up to it through lack of rooms?).  

I don't know Dornoch and my own favourite Saunton would really struggle with getting in and out, though the second course means the actual site is quite big.  

I think however you will be proved wrong regarding Portrush.  I'm betting that the Irish Open this year will be a big success, well attended, will get rave player reviews and heap enormous pressure on the R&A to get it back on the list.  The fact that it can't be before 2017 will provide the necesary time to do whatever tweaking is required.


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## Deke (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Scadge said:



			It was a great Open for sure we are agreed about that.  But I don't know whether you are saying I'm alright Jack so sod everyone else, or if the point is more general if attendance is unimportant and we can ignore the obvious financial consequences of this then it doesn't matter if it goes to a great course somewhere else that is hard to get to or can't hold the numbers like Deal or Princes which both have been taken off the rota for these reasons.

Also with respect to the point made earlier about week's holiday versus day trippers there is a cause and effect argument here. Of course if you are making a long journey from SE England to Scotland or vice versa you aren't going to do this as a day trip - the week long holiday is a tradition of necessity caused by poor accessibility
		
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What negative effect did Turnberry's attendance have on the state of British golf? It has already been said that aside from St Andrews,there is an equal amount of opens held in England and Scotland! If I fancied attending an open I wouldn't give a damn where it was in the British Isles.


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## Deke (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

To end on my main point before I go to bed,the Open is all about high quality links courses with good facilities, that the best players want to play.There are already quite a few in Scotland,and not so many in England.I cannot see how anything else matters! It's all about the courses! Good night! Rant over!


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## Scadge (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

For me it's all about the people.  Good rant - good night !  Cheers !


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## richart (Jun 20, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Deke said:



			The simple fact is that there are more quality links courses north of the border.Is it really that hard or expensive to travel up to Scotland from London? There are probably more good links courses in Ireland than England,I think Portrush would be a great choice but then again that would be way more expensive than travelling up north.At the end of the day the quality of course should be the deciding factor,not how near London it is! Who cares how many people turned up at Turnberry,it was a great open with moments of high drama!
		
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Don't discount English links courses. There are 20 in the Golf Monthly top 100 courses.


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## JezzE (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Dodger said:



			The opening post and many thereafter have to be the most stupid posts ever posted on here.
		
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Disagree with this - a perfectly valid well-argued point which thus far only seems to have upset those who live north of the border (where most Opens are played)...


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## JezzE (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

One other thing with regard to all the London-related nonsense on this thread... if you live in or around London you get one Open every ten years within a two-hour drive; if you live in Glasgow or Edinburgh you get six every ten years...

Whatever the reasons for that- history, tradition, quality of courses - I think the OP is perfectly within his rights to describe that as a 'bias'

(and I know there are three other English venues but they are almost as close to the Scottish border as they are to London)


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## bobmac (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

I suggest you write to the R&A and ask thm to look at adding more courses from down south.
I'm sure they've never even thought about it.


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## chrisd (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

So Scotland vote for independance - do we want the Open to be played in a foriegn country?


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## Ethan (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it *



Scadge said:



			I was again depressed by the choice of yet another Scottish venue for the 2016 Open.  I love playing there and the courses are great but 92/140 (66%) have to date been played in Scotland which has only (8.6%) of the population of the UK.  It's a long way for most of the people to go to and clearly not a day trip for most (remember 15m live in London and SE).  

So my view (although you may say its contentious, refer to home of golf, the courses etc) is that clearly the R&A are biased and not so concerned with the popularity and accessibility of the game as they should be and declining popularity will not be good for clubs or bringing on the next Faldo's, Monty's, Woosies or Clarke's.

So what should we do about it ?

First off we need to even the balance by hosting the Open at Portrush and developing a venue in Wales (Royal Porthcawl or Royal St Davids) capable of hosting an Open.  In addition we need to develop more venues in England to reflect the 84% population weighting.

How about the R&A spending some money on Deal or Princes, Saunton, Hillside or somewhere in East Anglia (would/could Hunstanton be big enough) rather than developing the game in China or Outer Mongolia.

Or how about we just continue the endless St Andrews, Muirfield, Carnoustie, Troon, Turnberry until the game becomes something kids once saw on the BBC 

Click to expand...

I think this is a slightly confused rant, even if it touches on a legitimate frustration. 

The problem is that the distribution of suitable venues favours Scotland and the Lancashire coast. There is no easy solution to this, and glibly saying 'we' need to develop more venues elsewhere does not help. Who is this 'we'?

Now, you can argue that The Open needs not be played at a links, and that opens up Sunningdale, Wentworth, The Grove and a bunch of other courses near London, as well as The Belfry (just kidding!), Woodhall Spa, Lydd, Royal Ascot and other fine courses elsewhere. 

The economic case for more Open venues is not very good though. The Open as currently organised gets pretty good crowds who like to go to Scotland to see golf. New venues would have to show an uplift in numbers that would justify the cost of developing them. Is the R&A going to underwrite dozens of hotels and new rail links being built just to support a 4 day golf event once a decade?

As much as a fan of Royal Portrush hosting an Open (I am from NI), I think it is not even close to a 50/50 chance of happening.


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## Fraz (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

I can't wait to re-visit this thread when the next new course added to the rota is Trumps... 

Remember, us northerners have the Ryder Cup in 2014 too, I think that there is a great time ahead for Scottish golf


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## HughJars (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Scadge said:



			I was again depressed by the choice of yet another Scottish venue for the 2016 Open.  I love playing there and the courses are great but 92/140 (66%) have to date been played in Scotland which has only (8.6%) of the population of the UK.  It's a long way for most of the people to go to and clearly not a day trip for most (remember 15m live in London and SE).
		
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Doesn't Scotland have as many active golfers as England? So your population figure is fairly meaningless.

Secondly, I always laugh when you see a Londoner/SE Englander moaning about stuff being too far away, nearly everything is London centric, TV, media, national stadiums, need I mention the Olympics? Yet when something isn't right on their doorstep, whinging and wailing like they're expected to travel to the ends of the earth.

Not everything has to be in London!


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## joma1108 (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

History and tradition is something that is getting swept away in this new age that we are living.
i for one believe that the british open has to stay on a links course, the spiritual home is St Andrews and many a pro will tell you playing the Open there is something that they aspire too.
i am pretty certain that should you ask pro's where would you want to see the british open played the vast majority would mention St Andrews or Turnberry (not that i am saying these are the best) but its just they get the most exposure.

Porridge put Birkdale on the map for his 5 wood shot at the 18th to retain his crown, but i dont hear anyone wanting to go back there, most people were stating how bad it was (the conditions mostly)

Royal St George again the weather horrendous, Darren wins it (and good on him) but no one saying what a great competition it was.

Turnberry Weather horendous, everyone saying what a competition it was as tom watson almost won a major at 59, and talking about the duel in the sun from 1977!!

Tiger has been quoted as saying the open should never leave St Andrews, Now im not in favour of that as it is somewhere that it should be aspired to play.

Muirfield however i could take it or leave it not a course i am fond of.

I dont believe that the open should only be played in scotland, however it does need to go around the country and i want to see the pro's tested in all conditions and Links is the way to do it with the ever changing conditions with tight lies and fast running fairways and greens.

I think the 4 home and 4 away with two at St andrews is just about right. imho


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## munro007 (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

All i can say, its about time Scotland gets what it deserves. Its not all about england for a change. I think you get your fair share when it comes to everything else. So put back your dummy, and bring all your money, we will gladly take it off you. :thup:


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## HughJars (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



JezzE said:



			One other thing with regard to all the London-related nonsense on this thread... if you live in or around London you get one Open every ten years within a two-hour drive; if you live in Glasgow or Edinburgh you get six every ten years...

Whatever the reasons for that- history, tradition, quality of courses - I think the OP is perfectly within his rights to describe that as a 'bias'

(and I know there are three other English venues but they are almost as close to the Scottish border as they are to London)
		
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He didn't though, he described the R&A as "biased". 

Clearly there is a bias towards Scottish courses, equally clearly there are very good reasons for this, none of whcih include actual bias, especially when you take in how many Englishmen are involved with the R&A.


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## patricks148 (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Golf is prob one of the few un-London Bias sports around.


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## chrisd (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



munro007 said:



			All i can say, its about time Scotland gets what it deserves.
		
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Yes - independance!


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Re Turnberry accomodation....It has the Clyde coastal resort towns of Ayr, Troon and Prestwick 30 mins up the road.
Many English golf fans find it easier to get to Scottish courses than RSG.
Muirfield is a two hour drive from Newcastle, Turnberry likewise from Carlisle, Lancaster.

London folk can be so arrogant when it comes to this sort of comment. They think that they should get everything.
Would it not have been a real breakthrough for the Queens Jubilee Pagent to have been staged at Birmingham or Manchester. I don't suppose anyone gave that a thought.


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## JezzE (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



HughJars said:



			He didn't though, he described the R&A as "biased". 

Clearly there is a bias towards Scottish courses, equally clearly there are very good reasons for this, none of whcih include actual bias, especially when you take in how many Englishmen are involved with the R&A.
		
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Fair point, and I was thinking more of the overall sentiment of the spread of Open courses more than anything else, but if he said 'biased' rather than just 'bias' than I have misread slightly


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## Snelly (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



JezzE said:



			Disagree with this - a perfectly valid well-argued point which thus far only seems to have upset those who live north of the border (where most Opens are played)...
		
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Well said.

This is a really interesting thread which provokes some original thought.  And I love the irony of those stating this is an inane debate - check out their other riveting posts and topics!  352 replies on Rangers FC for example! A team of cloggers in basically a pub league! Fascinating!

Anyway, the joys of irrelevant, minor league football aside..........  Personally, I would like to see a course or two added to the Open rota, particularly if they swapped them for a couple of the weaker venues.

My other observation would be in response to those who state that infrastructure and logistics are an issue.  Whilst I accept that a venue like Saunton would be more problematic than some of the current established courses, that does not mean that it should be precluded.  

Where there is a will, there is a way.  At some point in time, the same arguments over large numbers of people going to a golf course (Troon for example) will have taken place and the issues were looked at and addressed.  The same could be done at Saunton very easily.   It is just as easy to get to as Royal St Georges.   

If you disagree with this then you are wrong I am afraid.  I work in the supply chain and logistics industry and can tell you now that this could be done without much fuss.  Far more complex operations than this are looked at and successfully addressed all over the world, all the time. The local population would benefit hugely in economic terms from hosting an Open there and would accept the disruption.  It could be done very easily.

Saunton is just one example.  Royal County Down is another.  Perfect for the Open. 


Good thread and some good replies.


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## Snelly (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



			
				Would it not have been a real breakthrough for the Queens Jubilee Pagent to have been staged at Birmingham or Manchester. I don't suppose anyone gave that a thought.[/QUOTE said:
			
		


			It would have been brilliant yes, but I would think when the organisers assessed this, the cost of diverting the Thames for 200 miles outweighed the potential gains.
		
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## chrisd (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Snelly said:



			It would have been brilliant yes, but I would think when the organisers assessed this, the cost of diverting the Thames for 200 miles outweighed the potential gains.
		
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Love that Snelly ......... just love it :whoo:


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

I was thinking of the canals at the time!
More than Venice I have been told.

If they had done the Boring Boats bit on the Clyde at least they would have had a nice sunny day for it.


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## JezzE (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



murphthemog said:



			Why? It's the open, so why does it need to be in the uk? If trumps course happened to be in Mexico, but was deemed the best links course ever, why not hold it?
		
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Mexico, ironically, is the one place it couldn't be as it's the only other country under USGA rather than R&A jurisdiction.

But given how adamant they are that it's The Open Championship rather than the British Open, there's no logical reason why it couldn't be taken to any country under R&A jurisdiction. How about taking the 2017 Open to Royal Melbourne?

Never going to happen of course, but in theory...


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## the_scrambler (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Heard nothing but good things about the Saunton course. Hope I get the opportunity to play it some day.

Would hate to see the R&A take its flagship event to an inland course. The spectating public is offered few enough opportunities to view the links game and makes for a refreshing change from the bomb and gouge style of game we usually see on our screens.

There's no doubt Royal Portrush is right up there with the best of them but I think part of the problem the R&A may have in taking The Open there centres of the siting of stands. The cost of a ticket costs a great deal of money these days and no-one's going to pay for something they can't see!

Of course, it could just be the R&A just doesn't want the extra grief of taking its flagship event to another male only club!


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## DaveM (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

First and foremost I was not going to comment on this thread. As I have no problem with how the open is at present. But the more I thought about it. The more it sounded like. "yet another who thinks england ends at Watford Gap". The more comment by the op the more it shows.

Tell you what lets just have the open in the north west every year. Southerners can have a day out, most further north can have a day out. As it is about equal distance from both. All the infrastructure is in place. So nothing to do there either.

Cannot see any drawbacks at all. Oh except all those foreigners south of Watford coming here.


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## bluewolf (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

I'm rather hoping that Saunton does not get the chance as I play it every year whilst on holiday and the costs would triple if it was an open venue. 
Back to the original discussion, the spread of open venues has never really crossed my mind, but maybe that's because I live 30 minutes from the Lancashire coast. I could arrange a day trip to most open venues if I wanted with the exception of RSG as the travelling would be horrendous. I would like to see an Irish venue added but that's about it really. Oh, and it has to be Links. The Open on a non Links course is just plain wrong.


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## JezzE (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



DaveM said:



			First and foremost I was not going to comment on this thread. As I have no problem with how the open is at present. But the more I thought about it. The more it sounded like. "yet another who thinks england ends at Watford Gap". The more comment by the op the more it shows.

Tell you what lets just have the open in the north west every year. Southerners can have a day out, most further north can have a day out. As it is about equal distance from both. All the infrastructure is in place. So nothing to do there either.

Cannot see any drawbacks at all. Oh except all those foreigners south of Watford coming here.
		
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Isn't Solihull north of the Watford Gap...?


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## NWJocko (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Interesting thread.

Another reason, perhaps, that it may not happen is the investment the current hosts have put in at the request of the R&A in order to keep their status.

Reading Peter Dawson's interview in GM he mentions that the 7 year (?) improvements work to courses and access to improve their capacity to host the open ( both on and off course) is now complete.

If you were one of the hosts would you be happy having ploughed money into the courses and surrounding roads etc only to be told, just after its complete, you are going to have the open less often now but thanks for all your investment/work!!  

I assume the courses have some form of agreement in place before undertaking such an amount of work?

Re the Scotland / England split....  Excluding st Andrews the split is even, just so happens that 3 of the 4 English venues are in the north west.  There could, I agree, be a more equitable distribution of venues in England, are there many (any?) potential venues in the east or south west of England?


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## fundy (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

That effectively has happened to the major cricket grounds NWJocko, they were asked to make certain upgrades but whilst they have been doing so the ECB have added 3 more grounds to the rota seriously reducing the amount of internationals they host (which ultimately are the source of finance for the infrastructure) leaving some in quite precarious financial positions


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## Scadge (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

I hope to start a debate so very happy with responses so far but didn't realise that people's geography is so poor.  In Solihull I am neither a Londoner or South East Englander - where I have referred to these it has been to point out the obvious population centres.

Next I think it's laughable to point out tiny Scottish coastal resorts as the infrastructural reason why Troon and Turnberry are chosen (beyond the obvious appeal of the course).  Barnstaple and Ilfracombe match Ayr and Prestwick.
If these giants of the seaside industry are the reason then roll on the Open at Skegness.

Finally I don't expect the R&A to underwrite everything.  I am sure that working in partnership with the local authorities for Portcawl, Princes, Saunton, County Down etc then if the R&A took on the course challenge the locals who would gain the tourist benefit could take on the infrastructure piece and local entrepreneurs would adopt a "build it and they will come approach" to investments in the area.


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## Foxholer (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Snelly said:



			If you disagree with this then you are wrong I am afraid.
		
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Well, that's that then!


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## brendy (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Coming from Northern Ireland I find this thread amusing for a few different reasons.
We are well used to having to travel for everything bar a sliced loaf or a newspaper. I find a lot of (mainly, in my opinion) southern English folks find it hard to understand that other areas of the UK & I are entitled to have tourist attractions/locations that may be worthy of travel to.

One of the best examples I can think of at the moment is the Hillside event GM are hosting in September, to most on here it is a car ride of 1-4 hours from most areas of the mainland. To a few of us it is either a plane ride or an over night boat trip. We have no issue that the mainland holds quite a lot more activities than Ni & Ire and that is mostly acceptable, you cant have everything.  Perhaps those with the 'must be in my backyard' mentality should take a look from other folks perspectives.


Having the Open Championship in Portrush would be fantastic but only if they open the main roads to dual carriageway as it is quite a poor drive up most days as traffic can be slow in its current single lane layout. There are plenty of small towns nearby that could host visitors so Portrush itself wouldn't need to bear the entire brunt. 20 years ago, Portrush was a thriving home holiday destination, these days most of those B&B and family run hotels have shut up shop and it would take a fair amount of investment to get it back to the standard it needs to be at though it seems the borough council have made steps to help recently.


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## Scadge (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

I think you will find from most of the replies to this thread that it is folks north of the border who find the travel argument hard to fathom where golf is concerned and have tried to distract attention from this by characterizing it as a London attitude.  In Solihull I am about as far from hallowed links as you can get - I just hope to have more car rather than plane based travel options to future Opens


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## Stuart_C (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

I think its fair how R&A choose the  open courses, and they've proved that so long as the infrastructure is there then other courses will be  picked Muirfield being the example.

If the infrastructure isn't there then its not upto the R&A to improve it, it then comes back to how much the local authority want it.


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## bobmac (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

I know what we should do, we should try and please all of the people all of the time.
I mean, how hard can it be?  :thup:
And as for you Snelly, it's hard enough getting you out of Sussex, never mind England :ears:


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## brendy (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Why not have 4 "open championships" run a bit like the Dunhill where they all finish at one course for Sunday? Flybe will make a killing!


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## Snelly (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



bobmac said:



			I know what we should do, we should try and please all of the people all of the time.
I mean, how hard can it be?  :thup:
And as for you Snelly, it's hard enough getting you out of Sussex, never mind England :ears:
		
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I am sure I don't know what you mean?   I am going to Royal Berkshire next Wednesday for a game?  And just last week I played golf in Cheshire..

I have also got games booked at the K Club, Royal County Down and Gleneagles this year so lots of travel! 


You make a good point though - I am a converted Sussex boy now and call it home, despite being a Yorkshireman.    Reminds me, what about Rye for the Open?!


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## thecraw (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Just wait till Trumps masterpiece is added to the rota, that'll add another 290 miles onto your return trip from Glasgow.


Some really interesting replies on this thread, mainly silly replies but a good read.


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## Slab (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it *



Scadge said:



			Or how about we just continue the endless St Andrews, Muirfield, Carnoustie, Troon, Turnberry until the game becomes something kids once saw on the BBC 

Click to expand...

I guess the thread may have had more empathy for the OP's case had they not chosen only the Scottish venues to highlight as 'broken' 

Maybe suggesting that Birkdale or Lytham & St Annes also be considered in giving up their place/frequency in favour of <insert SE England GC> would have received a more favourable reaction!

I'd also like to understand the failures of the current pot of courses, i.e which of these is not currently a commercial/sporting success such that it would require consideration for the potential or requirement for any change to take place?


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## PieMan (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Haven't read all the posts on this thread, but to me the phrase "if it ain't broke don't fix it" comes to mind when it comes to the Open. Doesn't matter where it's held in Scotland and England, just embrace and enjoy the satisfaction we can get for having THE greatest golf championship played on our shores, on some of the most fantastic golf courses found anywhere in the world.

I for one am looking forward to the Open returning to Royal Lytham and St Anne's this year, particularly so soon after the first anniversary of the sad passing of the King of European Golf who won two memorable Opens there (really hope the BBC acknowledge this and do a suitable tribute).


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## CliveW (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Although the SE is the most densly populated, it would be interesting to see what percentage of the local populus would attend an open in that area. I would suggest that there is a higher percentage of golfers per head of population in Scotland than in the Home Counties. I wonder if there is a breakdown somewhere which shows where the majority of spectators are from for each Open venue.


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## JamesR (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

I don't know what all the moaning is about, think how it is for me - Derby is about as far from a Links course as you can get!
The nearest to Links golf I've ever got was pitch & putt on Pentire Headland, Newquay when I was 5.


How about playing The Open at one of the "Inland Links" style courses?


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## JezzE (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Gil_Emott said:



			I don't know what all the moaning is about, think how it is for me - Derby is about as far from a Links course as you can get!
The nearest to Links golf I've ever got was pitch & putt on Pentire Headland, Newquay when I was 5.


How about playing The Open at one of the "Inland Links" style courses?
		
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I reckon you could have found a full-length links closer than that if you'd really looked...!


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

I think some things to do wth the open should remain traditional, but change will also benefit.

I think it should remain links, as only one of the majors is only played on links courses every year. Surely it is the British open so should only be held in Eng/Scot/N Irn and Wales.

It should have the infrastructure, but the course also has to be up to a challenging standard. I think Northern Ireland should get one at Portrush, even if they can only cope with say 120,000, as long as it breaks above even. Maybe the same with Wales, if they have a suitable course, once in Wales and Northern Ireland every 15 years.

Royal Liverpool maybe isn't the best course, but to downplay it because it was perfecet weather in 2006, is slightly harsh. Maybe judge it, once it has bared it's teeth. We're lucky though as we have 3 venues within 1 hour, although Royal Liverpool dropped off the rota for about 40 years.

No-one has mentioned Silloth, I haven't played it, but some say it is a course in waiting, but again sadly missing in infrastructure.

London does get everything/most, so maybe about time, you were the poor cousins. See the FA's contract with Wembley for 20 years for all major England/Finals/Semi-finals, despite them saying how "fantastic" it was to take England on the road to the great unwashed when Wembley was being rebuilt.

Maybe councils/towns should bid for it, I think this should be the same for European cup finals, as it is a lesson in how to fleece for all hotels, airlines etc. I may live in too much of an optimistic world, but if they had to bid based on a ceiling on how much for a hotel room (their normal top price, not 5 times it), airlines with a fixed price (they will still make a good profit) and so-on from there, it may be a cheaper option all round. It will never happen though.

PS This is a very good thread, when away from the nationalist bitching, it should be what's best for the whole of the isles and for the future of British golf.


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## Ethan (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Liverbirdie said:



			No-one has mentioned Silloth, I haven't played it, but some say it is a course in waiting, but again sadly missing in infrastructure.
		
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Silloth could not accommodate the crowds or all the hoopla needed on site, as well as being far too short for an Open. The pros would kill it on a calm day, as rare as those are up there. 

Local qualifying course and great course for club players to visit, for sure.


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Ethan said:



			Silloth could not accommodate the crowds or all the hoopla needed on site, as well as being far too short for an Open. The pros would kill it on a calm day, as rare as those are up there. 

Local qualifying course and great course for club players to visit, for sure.
		
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You may be right, haven't played it, but lots of others have said it should be.


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## chrisd (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



CliveW said:



			Although the SE is the most densly populated, it would be interesting to see what percentage of the local populus would attend an open in that area. I would suggest that there is a higher percentage of golfers per head of population in Scotland than in the Home Counties. I wonder if there is a breakdown somewhere which shows where the majority of spectators are from for each Open venue.
		
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St Georges was jam packed despite the weather and it was pretty busy on the practice days. When the European tour had events at the London Club for 2 years the crowds were enormous as they are at Wentworth every year. We could sustain half a dozen tournaments a year easily


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



chrisd said:



			St Georges was jam packed despite the weather and it was pretty busy on the practice days. When the European tour had events at the London Club for 2 years the crowds were enormous as they are at Wentworth every year. We could sustain half a dozen tournaments a year easily
		
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I'm sure they could, but masive crowds should not be an over-riding criteria. 180,000 at a mainland one, should not discriminate against Nor Ireland getting it if they can pull in 120,000, as long as a profit is made.

The long term future /advancement of golf to Nor Ireland kids would be worth more to the game, than just an extra few million in the R&A coffers.


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## Ian_S (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Fair point about bringing it closer to more people, but (without having the figures to hand) I'd venture a guess that more people are within 100 miles of a lot of the Scottish courses than they are a lot of the US major courses.

We are on a small island. Nowhere is really 'a long way' if you think about it in terms of America, so I don't really see how it being in Scotland often makes it particularly inaccessible compared to the other 3 majors.


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## Scadge (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Ian_S said:



			Fair point about bringing it closer to more people, but (without having the figures to hand) I'd venture a guess that more people are within 100 miles of a lot of the Scottish courses than they are a lot of the US major courses.

We are on a small island. Nowhere is really 'a long way' if you think about it in terms of America, so I don't really see how it being in Scotland often makes it particularly inaccessible compared to the other 3 majors.
		
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Of course anywhere in the UK is going to be more accessible than the other three majors - I have never popped over their on a whim.  I wonder if the R&A could say that at least once in 10 years the Open should be within 3 hours drive of anyone in the UK and all four constituent countries should host an Open in that period.  Now that would be accessible !


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## sweeneytoddd (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Scadge said:



			I think you will find from most of the replies to this thread that it is folks north of the border who find the travel argument hard to fathom where golf is concerned and have tried to distract attention from this by characterizing it as a London attitude.  In Solihull I am about as far from hallowed links as you can get - I just hope to have more car rather than plane based travel options to future Opens
		
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I fseeing the Open means so much why don't you emigrate up here seempls


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## sweeneytoddd (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

And another thing can we please STOP calling it the British Open...its The Open, end of


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## stevek1969 (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Having read this why don't we have it slap bang in the middle of London that would be easier for wouldn't it. Troon is easy to get but not the best,i think Portrush should get a go but sadly i cant see it happening,they have the infrastucutre there and nxt week will prove it with a first time European Tour sell out.

The Open is a meant to be held on links pity all the best ones are up here, oh and 2 are 15 minutes from my house how handy is that.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

The issue is surely cost. No local council, even with Lottery funding is going to embark on such a project to invest in upgrading the infrastructure to hold a competition that may roll into town once every ten years or so. I'm sure the R&A will gander some of the cost but I can see it becoming a political hot potato locally for anyone, including Portrush, et al to embark on such a big project. As it is the rota will stand for a good few years to come


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## Val (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

My god if this thread was on paper I'd have enough bog roll for weeks


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## chris661 (Jun 21, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



HomerJSimpson said:



			The issue is surely cost. No local council, even with Lottery funding is going to embark on such a project to invest in upgrading the infrastructure to hold a competition that may roll into town once every ten years or so. I'm sure the R&A will gander some of the cost but I can see it becoming a political hot potato locally for anyone, including Portrush, et al to embark on such a big project. As it is the rota will stand for a good few years to come
		
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It is proabaly easier for Portrush to get money through Europe and put it down as some cross border initiative.


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## patricks148 (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

I'm pretty sure i read an interview with Peter Dawson and if memory serves me right, he said there were a few problems with Royal St Georges and something would need to be done if it were to go back.


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## Scadge (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



patricks148 said:



			I'm pretty sure i read an interview with Peter Dawson and if memory serves me right, he said there were a few problems with Royal St Georges and something would need to be done if it were to go back.
		
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It was difficult to get to and the park and ride a long way from the course but no Ryanair Siberian shot putters to contend with, no overnight rip off and when we had been thoroughly battered on Saturday we were able to go home and miss Darren at his majestic best.


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## Tiger (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Fascinating thread. The staunch Scots taking offence when none was intended. The purists casting consternation on any suggestion the rota should ever include a non links course. The realists proposing that any additions are likely to be north of the border admitting that though Porthcawl is a good shout the infrastructure isn't good enough. 

And underneath all of those layers lies the kernel of a valid thought provoking question: should the rota be expanded. Due to the number of comments claiming that this is THE Open as opposed to the British Open my question is what is therefore the basis for choosing the courses?

With all the arguments put forward on here there are contradictions within the existing rota. I think the problem is the 'size of the beast' today. Venues cannot grow organically and need to be fit for purpose from the off. Someone has already mentioned return on investment on this thread. That for me is the key. Is the ROI significant enough to justify significant expenditure to host The Open for one week every ten years...I'm not so sure it is. 

That said great thread Scadge :thup:


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Tiger said:



			With all the arguments put forward on here there are contradictions within the existing rota. I think the problem is the 'size of the beast' today. Venues cannot grow organically and need to be fit for purpose from the off. Someone has already mentioned return on investment on this thread. That for me is the key. Is the ROI significant enough to justify significant expenditure to host The Open for one week every ten years...I'm not do sure it is. 

That said great thread Scadge :thup:
		
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I think it should be a mixture of 3 things, the R&A should pay for any course improvements and something towards infrastructure.

The local council for some of the infrastructure and the course should also.

After all, they will probably add on 30-40% for future green fees, as they are now on the rota (on a loan spread over 10 years, I am sure they would be better off).

The town would also be better off in the future due to extra tourism, especially golfers.

Look at Royal Liverpool (before getting back on the rota) whose green fees probably doubled over 10 yaers once they were back on the rota. Prestwick is still Â£100.00 plus to play despite not holding it for over a century???

Porthcawl, Portrush  - the town and the course would benefit for years down the line.


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## sydney greenstreet (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

If there was to be change i would not want the change to be from a Links course to another type, I only see 2 reasons to hold the Open.
1 Links Course.
2.Infrastructure.
Now anywhere in the British isles this could be held as long as it can accomodate 1 and 2.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

I'm pretty sure that the R&A are constantly monitoring various other courses but they won't take the championship to any course they don't deem to be worthy. I've played Porthcawl a few times, decent track but not up to the test. Geographically, the best place would be somewhere on the east coast but there isn't a course that is up to standard. You need a track that is at least 7000 yards or the big boys will rip it to shreds unless the R&A trick the course up and nobody wants to see that. 

The only courses that I can see that would be suitable are Trump's place (Scotland again), Portrush or RCD.


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## thecraw (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Liverbirdie said:



			I think it should be a mixture of 3 things, the R&A should pay for any course improvements and something towards infrastructure.

The local council for some of the infrastructure and the course should also.

After all, they will probably add on 30-40% for future green fees, as they are now on the rota (on a loan spread over 10 years, I am sure they would be better off).

The town would also be better off in the future due to extra tourism, especially golfers.

Look at Royal Liverpool (before getting back on the rota) whose green fees probably doubled over 10 yaers once they were back on the rota. Prestwick is still Â£100.00 plus to play despite not holding it for over a century???

Porthcawl, Portrush  - the town and the course would benefit for years down the line.
		
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Firstly, its not down to the R&A to increase and improve infrastructure, that's down to the local authority. As per Turnberry, it was indicated that they wished to return to the Ayrshire links. As such a plan was put in place with the Scottish Executive and other funding partners for road upgrades etc. 

If the R&A indicate that Portrush, RCD etc were to be awarded an Open should they improve the transport links, hotels etc then its down to the local community and local government to decide if its worth the investment for the return.

From my experience of Portrush the roads would need a huge investment to bring it up to scratch. Also do you really want the courses to price us out of a game by increasing fees by 30-40%???

Also Prestwick is a golfing mecca like St Andrews, its where the Open began. Its the birthplace of the most historic tournament in the world. Its also a fantastic golf course.


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## Scadge (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

If you look on google maps you can see that Porthcawl is near the M4 so there are par and ride possibilities and it has adjacent fields which could house the tented villages and media infrastructure.  That said I have no idea whether the course although 7000yards us big enough to house >100000 spectators.

I hope trump never gets an Open but if a new purpose built course is likely to be well received by the R& A what other options does this present ?  Are there any other links development possibilities in England and wales to rebalance the geographic limitations of the present rota ?


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Prestwick is a no no. 
The Pros would rip it to pieces and there is no additional land for the tented village.

Dundonald is a far better option but it needs a lot of work on the quality of the course surrounds. Greens, tees and fairways are good but the rest needs to mature a bit. Huge areas for additional bits, with a quiet service road next to the dual carriaged A78. Irvine and Troon railway stations not far away.

Best shout for a new venue IMO but probably not too popular with the green eyed Southerners


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## thecraw (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Doon frae Troon said:



			Prestwick is a no no. 
The Pros would rip it to pieces and there is no additional land for the tented village.

Dundonald is a far better option but it needs a lot of work on the quality of the course surrounds. Greens, tees and fairways are good but the rest needs to mature a bit. Huge areas for additional bits, with a quiet service road next to the dual carriaged A78. Irvine and Troon railway stations not far away.

Best shout for a new venue IMO but probably not too popular with the green eyed Southerners
		
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Dundonald is better than you give it credit for however I don't think its up to an Open. Not enough room for spectators in my opinion.


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## thecraw (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Scadge said:



			If you look on google maps you can see that Porthcawl is near the M4 so there are par and ride possibilities and it has adjacent fields which could house the tented villages and media infrastructure.  That said I have no idea whether the course although 7000yards us big enough to house >100000 spectators.

I hope trump never gets an Open but if a new purpose built course is likely to be well received by the R& A what other options does this present ?  Are there any other links development possibilities in England and wales to rebalance the geographic limitations of the present rota ?
		
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Why would you wish that Trump never gets the Open? 

Is it because he's built it in Scotchland????


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Yes there would be a couple of bottlenecks where the designers have to try and get two tees and greens close to the portacabin [aka clubhouse] Loads of room between the portacabin and the road though, probably earmarked for housing.
Same problem as the new course at Gleneagles, that is why they made such a mess of the 18th. [but thier portacabin is somewhat better!]


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Scadge,
 England have very few links areas that are close to large areas of population except Liverpool and Blackpool. 
Scotland has Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dundee, Aberdeen and Inverness.
The investment is in roads and transport links, cableing, plumbing, as well as accomodation and services

As I said earlier you can't just build it up and knock it down a week later.
The whole process is much more complicated than most folks realise.

I know, cos I've been there!!


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## Scadge (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



thecraw said:



			Why would you wish that Trump never gets the Open? 

Is it because he's built it in Scotchland????
		
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No - you already know I want to balance things up geographically and this would also rule out Dundonald.  My hope that Trump never gets an Open is based on a shared sense of tradition with most of the posts herein which he cares less about than cash.  It may be naive but my argument has always been about giving the Open back to the people whereas I think Mr Trump would sell its soul to the mercenaries, marketers and bankers and I would hate to see the R&A reward insensitive development however good the end result is.


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## HughJars (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Scadge said:



			and I would hate to see the R&A reward insensitive development however good the end result is.
		
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Trump's design is anything but insensitive. It's so well built, you can't see the course from the main road even though you clealry see the dunes which created all the fuss in the first place. Don't believe the hype of the green nutters.


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## Scadge (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Doon frae Troon said:



			Scadge,
 England have very few links areas that are close to large areas of population except Liverpool and Blackpool. 
Scotland has Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dundee, Aberdeen and Inverness.
The investment is in roads and transport links, cableing, plumbing, as well as accomodation and services

As I said earlier you can't just build it up and knock it down a week later.
The whole process is much more complicated than most folks realise.

I know, cos I've been there!!
		
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You know I was almost starting to think I was losing the argument till you pointed out Inverness and Dundee as large population centres - by comparison everywhere in England and south wales is a large population centre.

Also some of you guys have argued that the infrastructure couldn't be put in place for an Open and wouldn't make economic sense for a once in 10 year rota and yet the Ryder Cup has encouraged enormous public and private investment wherever it has gone and yet it is NEVER going to return.  

Use your imagination there is life outside lancashire and Scotland and people who deserve an open nearby.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

scadge

As I read through these posts, I really can't help but think it all comes down to a bit of jealousy. OK, with one exception, the Open is centred around the north west and Scotland but I don't hear any southerners whinging about the fact that so many other sports events are centred around the south. London and SE every year has 2 cup finals at Wembley plus all the international games, all rugby matches at Twickenham, Wimbledon, Royal Ascot, Epsom Derby, Henley regatta, the PGA at Wentworth and this year the Olympics.

So, I don't think it is unreasonable for the rest of the country (NW) to host approx half of the Open's. The R&A aren't going to compromise the tournament by taking it to inferior venues, so sorry fella, that's just the way it is.


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## Tiger (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Scadge said:



			Use your imagination there is life outside lancashire and Scotland and people who deserve an open nearby.
		
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But it's not about the people. Surely, first and foremost it has to be about the course. Let's forget locations for the time being. I'm not a well travelled links player but there are a lot of you on here. 

What would you say are the best eight links golf courses in the UK?


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## Deke (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



drive4show said:



			scadge

As I read through these posts, I really can't help but think it all comes down to a bit of jealousy. OK, with one exception, the Open is centred around the north west and Scotland but I don't hear any southerners whinging about the fact that so many other sports events are centred around the south. London and SE every year has 2 cup finals at Wembley plus all the international games, all rugby matches at Twickenham, Wimbledon, Royal Ascot, Epsom Derby, Henley regatta, the PGA at Wentworth and this year the Olympics.

So, I don't think it is unreasonable for the rest of the country (NW) to host approx half of the Open's. The R&A aren't going to compromise the tournament by taking it to inferior venues, so sorry fella, that's just the way it is.
		
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I could not agree more,well said sir!


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## FairwayDodger (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Taking the Open in isolation I think the OP has a bit of a point. I must admit I've only ever attended it at St Andrews, Muirfield and Troon. Might take a spin down to Lytham ...... but probably won't.

However the arguments about tradition and quality of the venues is valid.

And I quite like that one national event tends to favour Scotland and North England since just about everything else is well established further south.


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Scadge.
If the South of England want The Open they should start by building some decent links courses, preferably near places with a decent population [ok I'll give you Inverness, but Dundee area has plenty chimneypots]

The EPGA learned the hard way that by putting events on at courses like The London Golf Club, [which is about 60 miles from London down a little country lane] they will never get decent crowds.
That is why they go to Scotland as they are guaranteed good knowledgable crowds. And before you say Wentworth, most of the spectators there are on freebies and are just a load of Merchant Bankers.


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## dog377 (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Snelly said:



			It would have been brilliant yes, but I would think when the organisers assessed this, the cost of diverting the Thames for 200 miles outweighed the potential gains.
		
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Where there's a will there's a way.....


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Yes London did get good some crowds for watching boats slowly drift past in the poaring rain. Also watching lots of soldiers and horses walk about a bit. Easily pleased these Southerners.


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## stevek1969 (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Scadge said:



			You know I was almost starting to think I was losing the argument till you pointed out Inverness and Dundee as large population centres - by comparison everywhere in England and south wales is a large population centre.

Also some of you guys have argued that the infrastructure couldn't be put in place for an Open and wouldn't make economic sense for a once in 10 year rota and yet the Ryder Cup has encouraged enormous public and private investment wherever it has gone and yet it is NEVER going to return.  

Use your imagination there is life outside lancashire and Scotland and people who deserve an open nearby.
		
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Whats wrong with Dundee,ah i know its in the middle of St Andrews and Carnoustie thats what.
As said before why should everything be in London,plus you aint got a decent course down there anyway,knob


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## Iaing (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

I've only ever attended 4 opens. St. Georges '85, Turnberry '86, Lytham '88 and Troon '89.
Enjoyed them all, but the 2 English trips stick in the memory as he most enjoyable because we made a road trip out of it.
4 buddies, one Volvo estate, lots of golf and beer = great time.
So it might seem unfair if attending The Open involves some travelling, but please try it. The effort is well worthwhile.

And unless The Open ever goes to Portrush, Troon is the most accessible venue for anyone from Northern Ireland.


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## stevek1969 (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Iain ,Portrush should be given a chance the infrastucture is there, i was there 2 weeks ago and the set up is first class,plenty parking,hotels and what ever else need,and the course is fantastic surely it should be about that primarily.


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## thecraw (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Scadge said:



			You know I was almost starting to think I was losing the argument till you pointed out Inverness and Dundee as large population centres - by comparison everywhere in England and south wales is a large population centre.

Also some of you guys have argued that the infrastructure couldn't be put in place for an Open and wouldn't make economic sense for a once in 10 year rota and yet the Ryder Cup has encouraged enormous public and private investment wherever it has gone and yet it is NEVER going to return.  

Use your imagination there is life outside lancashire and Scotland *and people who deserve an open nearby*.
		
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Just a shame they all live beside ***** courses incapable of handling the biggest and best tournament in the world. Long reign the Ayrshire links.


:whoo:


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## Scadge (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



stevek1969 said:



			Whats wrong with Dundee,ah i know its in the middle of St Andrews and Carnoustie thats what.
As said before why should everything be in London,plus you aint got a decent course down there anyway,knob
		
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I bow to your superior intellect - if you will note I didn't say there was anything wrong with Dundee merely that it isn't heavily populated.  This isn't a London argument and of course the thread was started with some jealousy at its heart.  I love the Open and would like it to be more accessible.  If nothing else I hope you folks north of the border who have put up such a staunch defense realise how lucky you are rather than acting as if you have a massive chip on your shoulder and anyone south of Hadrian's bloody wall who loves Scittish links and the Open must be some  brainless bigotted ar@$Â£ole.


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## Deke (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

We are the ones with the chip on our shoulder? You started this absurd thread Scadge! If you love Scottish links then why complain at the Open being held there? I have nothing against the Open being held at any decent links in the UK or NI,but the simple fact is we have more appropriate courses!


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## stevek1969 (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Scadge said:



			I bow to your superior intellect - if you will note I didn't say there was anything wrong with Dundee merely that it isn't heavily populated.  This isn't a London argument and of course the thread was started with some jealousy at its heart.  I love the Open and would like it to be more accessible.  If nothing else I hope you folks north of the border who have put up such a staunch defense realise how lucky you are rather than acting as if you have a massive chip on your shoulder and anyone south of Hadrian's bloody wall who loves Scittish links and the Open must be some  brainless bigotted ar@$Â£ole.
		
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No one mentioned anything bigoted and no chip on my shoulder we just happen to have the best and oldest courses up here and thats a fact, i watched The Open last year and wasn't impressed by Royal St Georges at all.

Dundee  has a population of 180,000 and would say a decent population,this is golf country its a game for the working class not some corporate shebang like what happen down south.


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## Iaing (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



stevek1969 said:



			Iain ,Portrush should be given a chance the infrastucture is there, i was there 2 weeks ago and the set up is first class,plenty parking,hotels and what ever else need,and the course is fantastic surely it should be about that primarily.
		
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I would love to see it go to Portrush Steve. It's certainly more deserving than another course down south just to suit the Londoners.


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## stevek1969 (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Iaing said:



			I would love to see it go to Portrush Steve. It's certainly more deserving than another course down south just to suit the Londoners.
		
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Iain ,have the chance to go over next week as well but it could be one trip to many,lol.


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## Scadge (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

You really have some prejudiced misguided views.  If it helps any my mother was one of 15 children (hope I can match your working class credentials) my father died on the golf course, i was born in Skegness a seaside town, I was on the golf course when my wife went into labour with our first child and both my kids play golf as I was encouraged to as a kid - so your view that we are all posh silver spooned toffee nosed idiots who cannot appreciate your deep working class understanding of a golf course and links is misguided and a bit sad


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## Iaing (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

And as far as the nonsense posted by some people on here about moving the open to an inland course, it is just that..nonsense!
Disregarding the aesthetics and history of playing the open on links courses, from a purely practical point of view, if you're organising one of the Majors in the UK in July, you'd better have a course that can handle huge amounts of rain and remain playable.
Links courses do this far better than inland courses.


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## Iaing (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



stevek1969 said:



			Iain ,have the chance to go over next week as well but it could be one trip to many,lol.
		
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Gotta have time to recover when you get to your age mate.


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## Deke (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Scadge you are now putting words in people's mouths,you may not be a toffee nosed idiot,but you are now being patronizing in the extreme.


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## Scadge (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Deke said:



			Scadge you are now putting words in people's mouths,you may not be a toffee nosed idiot,but you are now being patronizing in the extreme.
		
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Sorry patronizing was over the top - however do you  think the corporate shebang accusation is fair ?  Not a little prejudiced or stereotyping.  This has gone miles away from the intended debate - for my part it wasn't ever intended to be London v Scotland.  I don't live anywhere near London it hasnt got any links


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## Deke (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

I appreciate there are many working class golfers down south too,and I also appreciate that this thread is turning into a slagging match(Snelly's fault mainly),but I wish you would have thought before posting more Scadge! I really would be happy to see more Open venues regardless of location,but the simple fact is that very few are suitable.If England wants more Open venues,England needs to build them.


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## Junior (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

The more i read this thread, the more I believe that the UK (note i said uk and not England/Scotland/Wales/Norn Ireland) deserve another world class event.  The open and its venues will never change , i can live with that as i believe tradition has its place.   However, the European Tour need to support their roots and main fan base. 

What i mean by that is that instead of some Middle East / Asia event, they should give us a world machplay or even a world cup type event (why should that be in china each year ?????)  It's interesting that the European Tour and UK industry follow the same path.  Invest time in growing M.East/Asian events as opposed to generating / developing better events  within Europe.


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## Deke (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Well said Junior,I agree completely!


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## Scadge (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

Me too - at last we can agree on something


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## Iaing (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Deke said:



			England needs to build them.
		
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I think the R&A want established courses that won't fall to bits (like Castle Stuart did at the Scottish Open last year) at the first bit of inclement weather.
I think this may trump Trump's course too.


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## stevek1969 (Jun 22, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



Iaing said:



			Gotta have time to recover when you get to your age mate. 

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Your right mate,im still recovering from my last trip. Scadge you've kind of lost it fella,Junior your correct there should be more European Tour events in the UK,Germany used to have 4 now it only has 1, as the Asian market has a hold on them.


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## viscount17 (Jun 23, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

If anywhere should be entitled to feel hard done by it's Ireland and Wales, so if new courses are added to the rota they should come from there - and if that means St Andrews gets The Open 1 in 6 so be it.


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## Liverbirdie (Jun 23, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



thecraw said:



			Firstly, its not down to the R&A to increase and improve infrastructure, that's down to the local authority. As per Turnberry, it was indicated that they wished to return to the Ayrshire links. As such a plan was put in place with the Scottish Executive and other funding partners for road upgrades etc. 

If the R&A indicate that Portrush, RCD etc were to be awarded an Open should they improve the transport links, hotels etc then its down to the local community and local government to decide if its worth the investment for the return.

From my experience of Portrush the roads would need a huge investment to bring it up to scratch. Also do you really want the courses to price us out of a game by increasing fees by 30-40%???

Also Prestwick is a golfing mecca like St Andrews, its where the Open began. Its the birthplace of the most historic tournament in the world. Its also a fantastic golf course.
		
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As said Craw, just some of the infrastructure. Lets face it we are scarabbling in the dark as to how much all of this costs. Royal Liverpool was added 6 years ago, but apart from building a temporary bridge over a road and using Hoylake Muni's 16th as a driving range not much was needed, as Liverpool (for hotels) and existing roads etc was already there. Turnberry may be the best example of new infrastructure needed, but prices have gone up over 30 years, so who knows how much we are talking about.

30-40% increase in green fees, I agree with you, it shouldn't happen but most times it will, if a course is suddenly added to the rota, fact of life unfortunately. Wales and N ireland should get an open every 7 years about (as long as the course is up to standard, the infrastructure is improved, and as long as it upsets the Cockneys even further).

Prestwick, can't comment haven't seen it or played on it.


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## Val (Jun 23, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*



drive4show said:



			scadge

As I read through these posts, I really can't help but think it all comes down to a bit of jealousy. OK, with one exception, the Open is centred around the north west and Scotland but I don't hear any southerners whinging about the fact that so many other sports events are centred around the south. London and SE every year has 2 cup finals at Wembley plus all the international games, all rugby matches at Twickenham, Wimbledon, Royal Ascot, Epsom Derby, Henley regatta, the PGA at Wentworth and this year the Olympics.

So, I don't think it is unreasonable for the rest of the country (NW) to host approx half of the Open's. The R&A aren't going to compromise the tournament by taking it to inferior venues, so sorry fella, that's just the way it is.
		
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Excellent post :thup:


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## Doon frae Troon (Jun 23, 2012)

*Re: Why the R&amp;A need to look at their Open venue bias and how should they do it*

If they used Prestwick they would need to restrict crowds to 5,000 a day, that's why it is a no no.


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