# Itv leaders debate.



## spongebob59 (Apr 2, 2015)

What a farce.

Chairlady has no control.

Why are some of them there ?


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## c1973 (Apr 2, 2015)

I'm not watching (as there's parties with more MPs excluded than some of those present), but I'm going to hazard a guess that 'Lego heid' Sturgeon is doing more squawking than Captain Flint!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2015)

Well it's been interesting so far and good from Labour

But about to crank up as its hit immigration - time for Farage


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2015)

Well some good factual stuff from everyone and actual plans for what changes they would look to make 

Farage - again no substance just rant and nothing factually based and nothing about what they would look to actually do bar - close the borders


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## Ethan (Apr 2, 2015)

Cameron and Sturgeon doing well. Miliband like a deer in the headlights and Farage doing his dog whistle thing aiming at foreigners and people with HIV, which to UKIP bigots means gay men and drug abusers.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2015)

Impressed with Sturgeon also and the Green Party leader


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 2, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well it's been interesting so far and *good from Labour*

But about to crank up as its hit immigration - time for Farage
		
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Really? I'm not watching it so have no first hand knowledge but from my Twitter and Facebook pages it looks like Milliband is getting slated.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			Really? I'm not watching it so have no first hand knowledge but from my Twitter and Facebook pages it looks like Milliband is getting slated.
		
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im pretty untrained in politics but he seems to be saying what he wants to do and added facts etc - Cameron just seems to want to say how bad Labour were and how great he is and want he has done 

Farage is getting slapped about properly and basically blaming everything on Immigration - he has nothing else 

Just like last time Nick Clegg comes across well


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 2, 2015)

Sat through ten minutes. More than enough. Farcical and looks like a badly organised school debating society


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2015)

Farage has a think about the NHS


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## chrisd (Apr 2, 2015)

Milliband is totally non plussed, Greens, Sturgeon and the useless Welsh lady shouldn't be there as they can't make decisions that affect the UK, Clegg comes over as a good talker but he has been in coalition and criticises decisions made whilst he was Cameron's side kick and Farage only has 2 policies!


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## pokerjoke (Apr 2, 2015)

Loving it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2015)

On every single point - Education , NHS , Finance - Farage has only one point to look to blame - Immigration - is that all he has ? Is there no substance behind him ? Is there no depth to any of his policies ? 

This is showing him up to be hollow


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 2, 2015)

UKIP is a busted flush with no manifesto of substance and rhetoric and unbudgetable figures for their main policies. I can see Cameron doing well after tonight


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## c1973 (Apr 2, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			On every single point - Education , NHS , Finance - Farage has only one point to look to blame - Immigration - is that all he has ? Is there no substance behind him ? Is there no depth to any of his policies ? 

This is showing him up to be hollow
		
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Thing is, whether we like it or not (and I don't), there appears to be plenty of people that can, and do, link all of those 'problems' to one main factor; immigration.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2015)

A heckler it appears has been thrown out 

The men are getting outshone by Sturgeon tbh


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## Val (Apr 2, 2015)

Sturgeon came across very well tonight, very sharp and articulate.

It's a pity some of (not all) their policies suck big time.


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## chrisd (Apr 2, 2015)

Val said:



			Sturgeon came across very well tonight, very sharp and articulate.

It's a pity some of (not all) their policies suck big time.
		
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No she didn't she's just after splitting away from the union still


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## Val (Apr 2, 2015)

chrisd said:



			No she didn't she's just after splitting away from the union still
		
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It doesn't stop her coming across well, policies aside.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2015)

Val said:



			Sturgeon came across very well tonight, very sharp and articulate.

It's a pity some of (not all) their policies suck big time.
		
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Yep thought her and the ladies were calm and didn't get drawn into the baiting.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 2, 2015)

For those that have not seen the programee.

Nigel Farage also said he would stop HS2 saving Billions. He said he would pull out of Europe saving 10 billion. He said he would put a stop to NHS tourism saving 2 Billion a year. 
When a question was asked from the audience to the whole stage "how will you control immigration" he was the only one who said under the present rules you cannot. no one disagreed. He actually said that immigration should be based upon the Australian system. He is not against immigration just the control of who actually comes here.
he also said that if you come to this country from anywhere in the world and are diagnosed with HIV you can claim up to 25k a year in treatment and said it was wrong. think it was the bird from Scotland who said he should be ashamed. For What ?
Said he would abolish Hospital car parking fees.
Said That kids that went to Uni that were not clever enough have come out with no qualifications and big debt  should of been trained in other occupations and not allowed into Uni.
Said that a new house has to be Built every seven minutes to accommodate immigration, yet our own kids cannot afford a house.
Said European countries have failing economies and we should have closer links with commonwealth countries.
Said as a country we should have own laws and not be ruled by Europe.

So no he did not just talk about immigration being the country's only problem and the UKIPS only policy.

Just thought I would put them bits in coz one or two posters on here were in the toilet or making a brew when Farage was talking.


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## c1973 (Apr 2, 2015)

chrisd said:



			No she didn't she's just after splitting away from the union still
		
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Aye, and every vote they receive (regardless of whether the voter would vote against the union) only serves to encourage them. 

Being able to speak well is a useful tool when blaming everyone else and glossing over your own parties failures at governance (of which there are plenty) though.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 2, 2015)

chrisd said:



			No she didn't she's just after splitting away from the union still
		
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The minor parties did come across eloquently and Sturgeon was arguably the best leader there tonight which will do the SNP vote no harm. Irrespective of policies, spin and doctrine it's inevitably going to be a hung parliament and who gets cosy with who. Either way it's perhaps not what the UK needs to keep what the figures are showing to be, a positive economic growth (strongest in Europe)


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## virtuocity (Apr 2, 2015)

Great to see the stuffy male dinosaurs take a pasting from the competent ladies.  A good day for politics.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 2, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			For those that have not seen the programee.

Nigel Farage also said he would stop HS2 saving Billions. He said he would pull out of Europe saving 10 billion. He said he would put a stop to NHS tourism saving 2 Billion a year. 
When a question was asked from the audience to the whole stage "how will you control immigration" he was the only one who said under the present rules you cannot. no one disagreed. He actually said that immigration should be based upon the Australian system. He is not against immigration just the control of who actually comes here.
he also said that if you come to this country from anywhere in the world and are diagnosed with HIV you can claim up to 25k a year in treatment and said it was wrong. think it was the bird from Scotland who said he should be ashamed. For What ?
Said he would abolish Hospital car parking fees.
Said That kids that went to Uni that were not clever enough have come out with no qualifications and big debt  should of been trained in other occupations and not allowed into Uni.
Said that a new house has to be Built every seven minutes to accommodate immigration, yet our own kids cannot afford a house.
Said European countries have failing economies and we should have closer links with commonwealth countries.
Said as a country we should have own laws and not be ruled by Europe.

So no he did not just talk about immigration being the country's only problem and the UKIPS only policy.

Just thought I would put them bits in coz one or two posters on here were in the toilet or making a brew when Farage was talking.
		
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A very decent summary.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			For those that have not seen the programee.

Nigel Farage also said he would stop HS2 saving Billions. He said he would pull out of Europe saving 10 billion. He said he would put a stop to NHS tourism saving 2 Billion a year. 
When a question was asked from the audience to the whole stage "how will you control immigration" he was the only one who said under the present rules you cannot. no one disagreed. He actually said that immigration should be based upon the Australian system. He is not against immigration just the control of who actually comes here.
he also said that if you come to this country from anywhere in the world and are diagnosed with HIV you can claim up to 25k a year in treatment and said it was wrong. think it was the bird from Scotland who said he should be ashamed. For What ?
Said he would abolish Hospital car parking fees.
Said That kids that went to Uni that were not clever enough have come out with no qualifications and big debt  should of been trained in other occupations and not allowed into Uni.
Said that a new house has to be Built every seven minutes to accommodate immigration, yet our own kids cannot afford a house.
Said European countries have failing economies and we should have closer links with commonwealth countries.
Said as a country we should have own laws and not be ruled by Europe.

So no he did not just talk about immigration being the country's only problem and the UKIPS only policy.

Just thought I would put them bits in coz one or two posters on here were in the toilet or making a brew when Farage was talking.
		
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Well put Mr Tash.    Some posters here must have either been snoozing or decided not to listen to a word Nigel Farage said.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			For those that have not seen the programee.

Nigel Farage also said he would stop HS2 saving Billions. He said he would pull out of Europe saving 10 billion. He said he would put a stop to NHS tourism saving 2 Billion a year. 
When a question was asked from the audience to the whole stage "how will you control immigration" he was the only one who said under the present rules you cannot. no one disagreed. He actually said that immigration should be based upon the Australian system. He is not against immigration just the control of who actually comes here.
he also said that if you come to this country from anywhere in the world and are diagnosed with HIV you can claim up to 25k a year in treatment and said it was wrong. think it was the bird from Scotland who said he should be ashamed. For What ?
Said he would abolish Hospital car parking fees.
Said That kids that went to Uni that were not clever enough have come out with no qualifications and big debt  should of been trained in other occupations and not allowed into Uni.
Said that a new house has to be Built every seven minutes to accommodate immigration, yet our own kids cannot afford a house.
Said European countries have failing economies and we should have closer links with commonwealth countries.
Said as a country we should have own laws and not be ruled by Europe.

So no he did not just talk about immigration being the country's only problem and the UKIPS only policy.

Just thought I would put them bits in coz one or two posters on here were in the toilet or making a brew when Farage was talking.
		
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He also couldn't answer how much business and money the country would lose by breaking ties with Europe - also couldn't give how he comes about the figures he quotes 

Also he couldn't understand the issues that will happen if we as a country cut ourselves off 

He also ignored the fact we do have our own laws

Also couldn't answer when asked to prove new house every 7 mins is just to house immigrants 

Also was interested to know with him abolishing a lot of stuff and cutting ourselves from Europe where all the lost revenue comes from 

The others all agreed that rules for claming benefits for arrivals needs to change - there is no reason why people can't come into the country if they can contribute to the country and don't just take - he couldn't see the clear difference between controlling the benefits immigrants get to controlling immigration

But it all got turned to immigration for him and the way he speaks to people won't win him any friends. 

He had a chance to show he is serious and with substance - imo he didn't take it


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			The minor parties did come across eloquently and Sturgeon was arguably the best leader there tonight which will do the SNP vote no harm. Irrespective of policies, spin and doctrine it's inevitably going to be a hung parliament and who gets cosy with who. Either way it's perhaps not what the UK needs to keep what the figures are showing to be, a positive economic growth (strongest in Europe)
		
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It wont be a hung parliament due to what people like Sturgeon says but by the complete loss of faith by the masses who previously voted labour or Conservative but now only see succour in the likes of UKIP who stand for their views on issues like: immigration, gay marriage, defence and EU membership.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			It wont be a hung parliament due to what people like Sturgeon says but by the complete loss of faith by the masses who previously voted labour or Conservative but now only see succour in the likes of UKIP who stand for their views on issues like: immigration, gay marriage, defence and EU membership.
		
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Haven't seen UKIP views on gay marriage ? Not heard it discussed - what is their view or the views of the people they want to stand for ?

Also defence ? Can you give a summary on their views of defence


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## 6inchcup (Apr 2, 2015)

what i didnt under stand was why have a Scottish ,Welsh women when we in ENGLAND cant vote for them,the greens had an ozzy who never mentioned how they would pay for anything,the Welsh woman made me laugh demanding the same money as Scotland,big difference in oil revenue and rugby players transfers love,MILLIBAND looked a tosser,CLEGG talked nonsense,NIGEL was like the bloke in the pub everyone takes the mick out of,BIG DAVE won hands down,wont do a deal with the snp or the welsh,and give us a vote on the EU winner for me.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He also couldn't answer how much business and money the country would lose by breaking ties with Europe - also couldn't give how he comes about the figures he quotes 

Also he couldn't understand the issues that will happen if we as a country cut ourselves off 

He also ignored the fact we do have our own laws

Also couldn't answer when asked to prove new house every 7 mins is just to house immigrants 

Also was interested to know with him abolishing a lot of stuff and cutting ourselves from Europe where all the lost revenue comes from 

The others all agreed that rules for claming benefits for arrivals needs to change - there is no reason why people can't come into the country if they can contribute to the country and don't just take - he couldn't see the clear difference between controlling the benefits immigrants get to controlling immigration

But it all got turned to immigration for him and the way he speaks to people won't win him any friends. 

He had a chance to show he is serious and with substance - imo he didn't take it
		
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Where exactly did he fail to answer those questions?   I really want your proof Phil as it seems to me you just made that lot up!


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 2, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			He also couldn't answer how much business and money the country would lose by breaking ties with Europe - also couldn't give how he comes about the figures he quotes 

Also he couldn't understand the issues that will happen if we as a country cut ourselves off 

He also ignored the fact we do have our own laws

Also couldn't answer when asked to prove new house every 7 mins is just to house immigrants 

Also was interested to know with him abolishing a lot of stuff and cutting ourselves from Europe where all the lost revenue comes from 

*The others all agreed that rules for claming benefits for arrivals needs to change - there is no reason why people can't come into the country if they can contribute to the country and don't just take - he couldn't see the clear difference between controlling the benefits immigrants get to controlling immigration*

But it all got turned to immigration for him and the way he speaks to people won't win him any friends. 

He had a chance to show he is serious and with substance - imo he didn't take it
		
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He was also the only one that I remember that wanted an Australian type system of points; if the immigrant benefits the country they get in, if they don't then they won't.  By controlling immigration in that manner you also control the benefits.  So maybe he knows more about the difference than you credit him for.


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## Ethan (Apr 2, 2015)

The odious Farage did his usual dog whistle routine, with plenty of bigotry to go round. He talked a lot of rubbish about immigration, blaming all kinds of stuff on immigrants, It is a wonder he didn't repeat his claim that motorway congestion was due to them. 

His point on health tourism is a load of rubbish. Health tourism is a tiny issue and nowhere near the Â£2bn he claims. His point about HIV was just pandering to the bigoted would be UKIP voters who wrongly associate HIV with gay men and drug abusers. Dog whistle stuff par excellence. A disgraceful and disgusting politician. 

Sturgeon did very well, both in presentational and content terms.


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## c1973 (Apr 2, 2015)

Funny. I'm watching a wee 5 minute clip of this and all I'm seeing is Lego heid talking all over the top of Milliband and then Cameron when they were trying to answer a question. 

Might not be an accurate reflection of the night, I'll maybe watch tomorrow to see for myself, but it sounds like a typical debating style from her.


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 2, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Haven't seen UKIP views on gay marriage ? Not heard it discussed - what is their view or the views of the people they want to stand for ?

*Also defence ? Can you give a summary on their views of defence*

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What, as opposed to the Tory position of more and more cuts to the Armed Forces?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Where exactly did he fail to answer those questions?   I really want your proof Phil as it seems to me you just made that lot up!
		
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Within the program 

Asked by Millband about the savings for leaving the EU and Clegg mentioned hasn't thought of the implications of leaving EU when all three were shouting over each other.  Cameron said the housing isn't just to keep up with immigration - Farage just scoffed at him


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 2, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			It wont be a hung parliament due to what people like Sturgeon says but by the complete loss of faith by the masses who previously voted labour or Conservative but now only see succour in the likes of UKIP who stand for their views on issues like: immigration, gay marriage, defence and EU membership.
		
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Whatever the reason behind the how, I cannot see any party getting an overall majority. If Labour get the most seats who do they align with, especially outside England. If the Conservatives get in will they align with the Lib Dems again? Where do UKIP fall into this? It'll be messy regardless


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2015)

Blue in Munich said:



			He was also the only one that I remember that wanted an Australian type system of points; if the immigrant benefits the country they get in, if they don't then they won't.  By controlling immigration in that manner you also control the benefits.  So maybe he knows more about the difference than you credit him for.
		
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Yes he mentioned the Australian System but for us to move to that system would involve is leaving the EU - the others wanted to bring in measures to stop them claiming benefits which can be brought in without leaving the EU


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 2, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yes he mentioned the Australian System but for us to move to that system would involve is leaving the EU - the others wanted to bring in measures to stop them claiming benefits which can be brought in without leaving the EU
		
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How?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2015)

Blue in Munich said:



			What, as opposed to the Tory position of more and more cuts to the Armed Forces?
		
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I didn't say I was in favour of the Tory position - just wanted to know what the UKIP position on defence is.


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## chrisd (Apr 2, 2015)

To be fair to Farage he doesn't need to have a broad range of thought out and costed policies. He is not going to get more than a few MP's and therefore how he would decide on nuclear weapons or corporation tax isn't really important. He is appealing to the electorate on a couple of issues and getting that message across well according to his ratings.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 2, 2015)

Ethan said:



			The odious Farage did his usual dog whistle routine,* with plenty of bigotry to go round*.
		
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Really?


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## c1973 (Apr 2, 2015)

Did the Greens explain how they were going to pay for everything?


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 2, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I didn't say I was in favour of the Tory position - just wanted to know what the UKIP position on defence is.
		
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I didn't suggest you did, but given your obvious dislike for him I just thought I'd point out that he's not currently dismantling the Armed Forces, so probably can't be any worse than the current incumbent.


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## 6inchcup (Apr 2, 2015)

Ethan said:



			The odious Farage did his usual dog whistle routine, with plenty of bigotry to go round. He talked a lot of rubbish about immigration, blaming all kinds of stuff on immigrants, It is a wonder he didn't repeat his claim that motorway congestion was due to them. 

His point on health tourism is a load of rubbish. Health tourism is a tiny issue and nowhere near the Â£2bn he claims. His point about HIV was just pandering to the bigoted would be UKIP voters who wrongly associate HIV with gay men and drug abusers. Dog whistle stuff par excellence. A disgraceful and disgusting politician. 

Sturgeon did very well, both in presentational and content terms.
		
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regarding health tourist this country IS owed near to a billion pounds from countries that dont have reciprocal agreements with us same as you going to SPAIN getting injured and using your health card (only for state health services) they bill our country who then pay,thousand of people come hear for a HOLIDAY only to go to nearest hospital for expensive treatment they cant afford at home,same as pregnant girls from IRELAND coming over to have abortions,this country carries the cost.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2015)

Blue in Munich said:



			I didn't suggest you did, but given your obvious dislike for him I just thought I'd point out that he's not currently dismantling the Armed Forces, so probably can't be any worse than the current incumbent. 

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Unless he wants further cuts 

I genuinely don't know what UKIP policies are on defence -


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## c1973 (Apr 2, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			regarding health tourist this country IS owed near to a billion pounds from countries that dont have reciprocal agreements with us same as you going to SPAIN getting injured and using your health card (only for state health services) they bill our country who then pay,thousand of people come hear for a HOLIDAY only to go to nearest hospital for expensive treatment they cant afford at home*,same as pregnant girls from IRELAND coming over to have abortions*,this country carries the cost.
		
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Does that still happen? 
I thought Ireland had moved into the present century.


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## the smiling assassin (Apr 2, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I genuinely don't know what UKIP policies are on defence -
		
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To just attack?


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## chrisd (Apr 2, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I genuinely don't know what UKIP policies are on defence -
		
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As I posted earlier,he doesn't need a policy on defence given that he won't be putting a defence policy into action.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Unless he wants further cuts 

I genuinely don't know what UKIP policies are on defence -
		
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How hard is it to find out 

You seem to be a leading authority on all their other views!


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## Ethan (Apr 2, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			regarding health tourist this country IS owed near to a billion pounds from countries that dont have reciprocal agreements with us same as you going to SPAIN getting injured and using your health card (only for state health services) they bill our country who then pay,thousand of people come hear for a HOLIDAY only to go to nearest hospital for expensive treatment they cant afford at home,same as pregnant girls from IRELAND coming over to have abortions,this country carries the cost.
		
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Rubbish. 

Using capitals (in the wrong places, but not where they are needed) does not make a rant any more coherent, although a few full stops would help. 

Here, have these  ..........

Farage is an unpleasant bigot. Anyone who votes for him is probably one too.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Rubbish. 

Using capitals (in the wrong places, but not where they are needed) does not make a rant any more coherent, although a few full stops would help. 

Here, have these  ..........

Farage is an unpleasant bigot. Anyone who votes for him is probably one too.
		
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Takes one to know one!  And you do hold yourself out as a leading authority on the subject.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			How hard is it to find out 

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Well their manifesto is pretty thin so I thought as you appear to have a deep knowledge of UKIP and mentioned both defence and gay marriage you can answer how their policies cover people's view on those two particular subject ? 

So can you answer ?


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## c1973 (Apr 2, 2015)

http://www.ukip.org/policies_for_people

UKIP manifesto ^^^^^


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## c1973 (Apr 2, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Rubbish. 

Using capitals (in the wrong places, but not where they are needed) does not make a rant any more coherent, although a few full stops would help. 

Here, have these  ..........

Farage is an unpleasant bigot. *Anyone who votes for him is probably one too.*

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*
*

Ludicrous statement.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Rubbish. 

Using capitals (in the wrong places, but not where they are needed) does not make a rant any more coherent, although a few full stops would help. 

Here, have these  ..........

Farage is an unpleasant bigot. *Anyone who votes for him is probably one too.*

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Sorry but that's a poor statement to make


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## CMAC (Apr 2, 2015)

Ethan said:



			The odious Farage did his usual dog whistle routine, with plenty of bigotry to go round. He talked a lot of rubbish about immigration, blaming all kinds of stuff on immigrants, It is a wonder he didn't repeat his claim that motorway congestion was due to them. 

His point on health tourism is a load of rubbish. Health tourism is a tiny issue and nowhere near the Â£2bn he claims. His point about HIV was just pandering to the bigoted would be UKIP voters who wrongly associate HIV with gay men and drug abusers. Dog whistle stuff par excellence. A disgraceful and disgusting politician. 

Sturgeon did very well, both in presentational and content terms.
		
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you were clearly watching a different debate to the rest of us. There is only one bigot coming across here.


For the avoidance of doubt I have no time for UKIP but I do have time for fair reporting.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well their manifesto is pretty thin so I thought as you appear to have a deep knowledge of UKIP and mentioned both defence and gay marriage you can answer how their policies cover people's view on those two particular subject ? 

So can you answer ?
		
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My point (that went over your head) was that a great number of people that previously voted Labour and Conservative now feel their views unrepresented so will now vote UKIP.   Due to the FPTP system UKIP will probably get at least 15% of the vote but not many MPs.     It is wrong to suggest these voters are stupid.

I'm still waiting for you to prove those comments you made about Farage and as already suggested just look at their website to see their policies.    You do understand they dont expect to form a Government on their own.  Dont you?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			My point (that went over your head) was that a great number of people that previously voted Labour and Conservative now feel their views unrepresented so will now vote UKIP.   Due to the FPTP system UKIP will probably get at least 15% of the vote but not many MPs.     It is wrong to suggest these voters are stupid.

I'm still waiting for you to prove those comments you made about Farage and as already suggested just look at their website to see their policies.    You do understand they dont expect to form a Government on their own.  Dont you?
		
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You specifically mentioned gay marriage and defence hence why I asked the question - you appear to now want to dodge those two points ? Looked at the web link posted and nothing on defence and gay marriage - so can you please enlighten us to these views/policies 

I haven't suggested any voter is stupid 

The comments I made about Farage were from the program tonight - as I stated earlier . 

A greater number may not vote at all because whilst they feel Labour or Tory don't represent their views - that is also the same with UKIP


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## Odvan (Apr 2, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Impressed with Sturgeon also and the *Green Party leader*

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Really? You were honestly impressed by her? Jesus, Phil. She was hopeless.


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## ger147 (Apr 2, 2015)

Where's that dog with a bone emoji...


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## chrisd (Apr 2, 2015)

Odvan said:



			Really? You were honestly impressed by her? Jesus, Phil. She was hopeless.
		
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As was the Welsh candidate


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 2, 2015)

Odvan said:



			Really? You were honestly impressed by her? Jesus, Phil. She was hopeless.
		
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Thought she came across very well - 

Always feel sorry for the green party as their intentions are the most honourable but its just impossible for them


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## chrisd (Apr 2, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Thought she came across very well - 

Always feel sorry for the green party as their intentions are the most honourable but its just impossible for them
		
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Honourable in a perfect world but totally un affordable as I believe the people of Brighton gave found out


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2015)

Watching QT.   The same old cookie comes up again defending immigration "Our NHS would collapse tomorrow if it wasn't for immigration"

Is it right that we plunder Nurses and Doctors that have been trained at the expense from some of the poorest countries in the World and take advantage rather than invest in training our own people.   For me it's a national disgrace.     The same goes for skilled tradesmen, we are backward in our investment in apprenticeships.

We also dont need an infinite supply of cheap unskilled labour that drives down the wages of working people.  And! before anyone suggests it, it's not OK for British people to fester on the dole rather than do these jobs.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			You specifically mentioned gay marriage and defence hence why I asked the question - you appear to now want to dodge those two points ? Looked at the web link posted and nothing on defence and gay marriage - so can you please enlighten us to these views/policies 

I haven't suggested any voter is stupid 

The comments I made about Farage were from the program tonight - as I stated earlier . 

A greater number may not vote at all because whilst they feel Labour or Tory don't represent their views - that is also the same with UKIP
		
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Your comments on Farage tonight didn't seem to be part of the program I watched and again I ask you to substantiate them?

OK! you cant be bothered to look into it yourself.   This may educate you:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gen...ow-each-party-compares-on-defence-policy.html

Regarding Gay Mariage, it's not what UKIP are currently saying but the dissatisfaction of many mid-Englanders to the way the Conservatives pushed it through without their consent.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 2, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Thought she came across very well - 

Always feel sorry for the green party as their intentions are the most honourable but its just impossible for them
		
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It's impossible for them due to their rubbish policies.


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## palindromicbob (Apr 3, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			regarding health tourist this country IS owed near to a billion pounds from countries that dont have reciprocal agreements with us same as you going to SPAIN getting injured and using your health card (only for state health services) they bill our country who then pay,thousand of people come hear for a HOLIDAY only to go to nearest hospital for expensive treatment they cant afford at home,*same as pregnant girls from IRELAND coming over to have abortions,this country carries the cost.*

Click to expand...

Yup they all fly over into an A&E open their legs and shout "I want an abortion"

Sorry but here you are talking rubbish.  When Irish women fly over to the UK for an abortion they are going private. Marie Stopes being one of the major providers of this. This also includes Northern Irish women who aren't entitled to an abortion on the NHS unless the is medical risk despite being UK tax payers due to the messed up legal system regarding abortions both north and south of the border. Those from Ireland choosing to have an abortion are going through enough without idiots believing they are also draining the NHS. Any Irish abortion that might happen on the NHS is very much in the minority.


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## SaintHacker (Apr 3, 2015)

Been unable to sleep tonight as every time I close my eyes I see Ed Milliband staring at me through a tv!

This may give the Farage haters some pause for thought
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/04/02/leaders-debate/


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## Blue in Munich (Apr 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Your comments on Farage tonight didn't seem to be part of the program I watched and again I ask you to substantiate them?

OK! you cant be bothered to look into it yourself.   This may educate you:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gen...ow-each-party-compares-on-defence-policy.html

Regarding Gay Mariage, it's not what UKIP are currently saying but the dissatisfaction of many mid-Englanders to the way the Conservatives pushed it through without their consent.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting link.  According to that, on immigration;

The Conservatives have promised to cut net immigration to tens of thousands.

Labour state that immigration needs to be properly controlled and managed.

For the LibDems, Nick Clegg is "a believer in the benefits of well managed immigration".

UKIP want an Aussie styled points system.

Based on that, can someone explain the difference between UKIP and the 3 main parties, apart from the obvious difference that Farage is completely open about his party's views, unlike some others (yes, you Mr. Clegg).


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## RW1986 (Apr 3, 2015)

SaintHacker said:



			Been unable to sleep tonight as every time I close my eyes *I see Ed Milliband staring at me through a tv*!

This may give the Farage haters some pause for thought
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/04/02/leaders-debate/

Click to expand...

haha made me chuckle.


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## pokerjoke (Apr 3, 2015)

Tashyboy said:



			For those that have not seen the programee.

Nigel Farage also said he would stop HS2 saving Billions. He said he would pull out of Europe saving 10 billion. He said he would put a stop to NHS tourism saving 2 Billion a year. 
When a question was asked from the audience to the whole stage "how will you control immigration" he was the only one who said under the present rules you cannot. no one disagreed. He actually said that immigration should be based upon the Australian system. He is not against immigration just the control of who actually comes here.
he also said that if you come to this country from anywhere in the world and are diagnosed with HIV you can claim up to 25k a year in treatment and said it was wrong. think it was the bird from Scotland who said he should be ashamed. For What ?
Said he would abolish Hospital car parking fees.
Said That kids that went to Uni that were not clever enough have come out with no qualifications and big debt  should of been trained in other occupations and not allowed into Uni.
Said that a new house has to be Built every seven minutes to accommodate immigration, yet our own kids cannot afford a house.
Said European countries have failing economies and we should have closer links with commonwealth countries.
Said as a country we should have own laws and not be ruled by Europe.

So no he did not just talk about immigration being the country's only problem and the UKIPS only policy.

Just thought I would put them bits in coz one or two posters on here were in the toilet or making a brew when Farage was talking.
		
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Spot on.
Some people only hear what they want to hear.
Im with Farage we need to control the people that come here not just letting everyone in.
Numbers just has a knock on effect to Hospitals,schools jobs etc.
I thought the woman were also calm and collected with NS impressing.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 3, 2015)

Think this thread proves that people will always see what they want to see and the vast majority of viewers have so many prejudices and preconceptions that nothing that was said would change that. 

In fact all it does is harden them so some of us will think Farage is an even bigger nasty racist tosser and others will believe even more now that he is a breath of fresh air and is exactly what this country needs. And let's face it, none of us are going to change our minds. And the same applies to the other party leaders.


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## Beezerk (Apr 3, 2015)

Only caught the last 45 minutes of it, the Welsh lady came out best for me, Sturgeon seemed poor from the bits I saw.
What was Milliband on? I wanted him to inspire me but he just delivered a coached speech at the end which left me cold!


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 3, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Farage is an unpleasant bigot. Anyone who votes for him is probably one too.
		
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Would probably go along with this.Disturbing that there seems to be a consensus he won last night, but not surprising.A nation ( The UK) with a reasonable proportion of bigots and closet racists, nodding sagely as Farage demonised johnny foreigner.


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## User20205 (Apr 3, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Think this thread proves that people will always see what they want to see and the vast majority of viewers have so many prejudices and preconceptions that nothing that was said would change that. 

In fact all it does is harden them so some of us will think Farage is an even bigger nasty racist tosser and others will believe even more now that he is a breath of fresh air and is exactly what this country needs. And let's face it, none of us are going to change our minds. And the same applies to the other party leaders.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed, I watched 10 mins before I switched off. The posturing and political point scoring turn me off. No one answers questions in these things, just delivers pre prepared sound bites. 

 Whilst I believe farage is a capable politician I can't believe anyone would consider voting for him. 

His party sells a myopic fearful view of the world. How can anyone object to gay marriage ? 

Isolationist policies don't work economically or socially, that's been proven


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2015)

Sorry, didn't see the "debate", so currently, my only reference is this forum. With regards to Farage's comments on HIV, was it just HIV, or was it any serious illness?


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## CMAC (Apr 3, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Would probably go along with this.Disturbing that* there seems to be a consensus he won last night, *but not surprising.A nation ( The UK) with a reasonable proportion of bigots and closet racists, nodding sagely as Farage demonised johnny foreigner.
		
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not according to *any* polls


and anyone who agrees with Ethans ludicrous statement really needs to have a word with themselves, you are acting no differently to the people you berate.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 3, 2015)

My twopenny worth

Greens       : Didnt fill me with confidence, nice ideas, but costly
Plaid Cymru : Obviously fighting her corner, non entity outside wales, came over well
Lib Dems     : Feel a bit sorry for Clegg, decent bloke, and whilst in power has definitely held back some of the conservatives more extreme plans. But caved in on student  finance   and is in for a hammering at the polls
SNP:   Thought she did really well, they are going to take seats off Labour in Scotland and may well hold the balance of power after the election. Talked a lot of sense.
UKIP:  Farage had a good night, came out fighting, got his message across and was as you would expect, outspoken at times.  will take votes from both Tory & Labour. whether this will result in many seats is anyones guess.
Labour: Sorry but I have little confidence in Milliband, he comes over a bit smarmy and that annoying nasal voice GRRR. Labour have still not recovered from getting the economy into the mess and I dont trust them with the economy.
Conservative: Thought Cameron did well, although he still comes across as a rich Tory Boy. Feel better about the economy than with any of the others, but its far from perfect.  HS2 needs rethinking and the bedroom tax was a PR disaster. But at the moment Im probably going to vote Tory


Interesting historical note
Go back to the John Major government , they had steered the country through another recession, had withdrawn us from the ERM which had reduced interest rates dramatically and the econony was looking better than it had for years.  Most commentators thought he had a good chance for 5 more years, but the electorate handed it all over to New labour.

I wouldnt be at all surprised if the same thing didnt happen again. although I dont see any party winning outright and there will have to be come arrangements with smaller parties to form a working government  Labour/SNP. ??


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## CMAC (Apr 3, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Sorry, didn't see the "debate", so currently, my only reference is this forum. With regards to Farage's comments on HIV, was it just HIV, or was it any serious illness?
		
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from what I saw Blue (didnt see it all) he mentioned this as it was brought up, all he mentioned was the fact that 60% of people identified with HIV in the UK and receiving up to Â£25000 PA from the UK govt have come from overseas. He said we should be looking after our own people first and this could save nearly Â£2Billion PA


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2015)

CMAC said:



			from what I saw Blue (didnt see it all) he mentioned this as it was brought up, all he mentioned was the fact that 60% of people identified with HIV in the UK and receiving up to Â£25000 PA from the UK govt have come from overseas. He said we should be looking after our own people first and this could save nearly Â£2Billion PA
		
Click to expand...

Makes more sense. Cheers Colin. 

I wonder how true that stat is? And whether he would apply the same policy to all serious conditions? 

He certainly seems to know how to play to his target audience doesn't he? He is an excellent "politician". If only he didn't represent the insidious creep of fascism (in my opinion of course)...


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 3, 2015)

SaintHacker said:



			This may give the Farage haters some pause for thought
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/04/02/leaders-debate/

Click to expand...

I didn't watch any of the debate so this comment is purely based on the link from SH.

Don't understand how Sturgeon could be said to have performed best overall when you look at the ratings for each question. As much as it pains me to say, surely Milliband performed best as he was rated 1st 1st 2nd and 3rd for the 4 questions.

Cameron - 1, 2, T2, 3
Farage - 4, 4, 1, 5
Sturgeon - 3, 3, 2, T2
Clegg - 5, 5, 7, 4

Based on how each question was rated in terms of who was most impressive if you swap Farage and Sturgeon surely that should be the correct order.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 3, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Think this thread proves that people will always see what they want to see and the vast majority of viewers have so many prejudices and preconceptions that nothing that was said would change that. 

In fact all it does is harden them so some of us will think Farage is an even bigger nasty racist tosser and others will believe even more now that he is a breath of fresh air and is exactly what this country needs. And let's face it, none of us are going to change our minds. And the same applies to the other party leaders.
		
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Good post from the No2 voice of logical reason.:lol:

Why are a couple of posters on here so concerned with Nicola's shoes and hair.......seems a bit 'perverted' to me.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 3, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Farage is an unpleasant bigot. Anyone who votes for him is probably one too.
		
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I'd possibly stop a bit short of that but there is no doubt that anyone voting UKIP is, at the very least, prepared to turn a blind eye to their racism, sexism and homophobia. I'd view any UKIP voter with a degree of suspicion.


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## Dellboy (Apr 3, 2015)

Well that was two hours of my life I will never get back.

Why did they have 7 people, only 2 have the chance of being PM, the fish lady should have not been on as no one in England can vote for her, Welsh lady was next to useless, and once again will only get votes in Wales, the Ozzie, well best take herself and her crackpot ideas back down under. 

Nick didn't look like he even wanted to be there, Farage, one trick pony (mind you I do agree with him) Ed is a leader who his own party doesn't want and all he wants to do is send the country back into massive debt, and then Cameron, just stood back from the bun fight and let the others go for each it, would have liked him to atack the others more.

Go Dave Go :thup:


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## Hobbit (Apr 3, 2015)

Just an off the cuff unrefined thought/question, and apologies if it comes across a bit clumsy.

We're about to go through a UK general election, and there were two parties in last night's debate who want a raft of things for their respective countries, which appear to be at the expense of people in the other countries in the UK. 

Are they discriminating against the rest of the UK?


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## Tiger (Apr 3, 2015)

SaintHacker said:



			Been unable to sleep tonight as every time I close my eyes I see Ed Milliband staring at me through a tv!

This may give the Farage haters some pause for thought
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/04/02/leaders-debate/

Click to expand...

The media in the UK - notably the right wing press - has stirred up concern on immigration. There are many other societal issues that are causing problems in this country like aspiration and work willingness (the fact that many EU nationals are willing to work for a lower wage). However people need to understand that the benefits bill is mainly being drained by people living longer thereby swelling the pensions pot.

As much as I hate to say it UKIP are brilliantly playing on people's fears and the easy explanation that fixing immigration is the panacea for all the UKs ills. This is borne out by the votes in SH link where he only scores strongly on immigration. Unfortunately, it's much more complex than that but a significant proportion of the electorate are unaware of the more complex issues.

The problem is compounded by a weak Labour party and leader and the fact that most Labour voters would never vote Tory. The Lib Dems have suffered by their weak position in the coalition and I fear that
a) a large number of the 'usual' electorate won't vote
b) Farage will mobilise parts of the electorate that might not normally vote
c) We'll end up with a dysfunctional parliament as it will need a multi party coalition

For the first time in my life I'm glad we have FPTP as I dread to think what kind of parliament it would be with any form PR.

The only thing that may save the Tories is that they continue to outplay everyone on the economy and that's the biggest political issue.  From my perspective I've always been a Labour supporter but left the party when we appointed Ed over David. The Unions swayed the vote thinking they could much more easily control Ed. If only David had won I think politics would be a very different place now  Come election day I have no idea what I'm going to do...


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## Tiger (Apr 3, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Just an off the cuff unrefined thought/question, and apologies if it comes across a bit clumsy.

We're about to go through a UK general election, and there were two parties in last night's debate who want a raft of things for their respective countries, which appear to be at the expense of people in the other countries in the UK. 

Are they discriminating against the rest of the UK?
		
Click to expand...

No they are representing the interests of their population which is fine in a devolved political environment  Sturgeon was brilliant


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 3, 2015)

I didn't see the debate myself but I am told that Sturgeon played the old SNP trick of berating the UK politicians over issues that are actually devolved.


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## Ethan (Apr 3, 2015)

Tiger said:



			The media in the UK - notably the right wing press - has stirred up concern on immigration. There are many other societal issues that are causing problems in this country like aspiration and work willingness (the fact that many EU nationals are willing to work for a lower wage). However people need to understand that the benefits bill is mainly being drained by people living longer thereby swelling the pensions pot.

As much as I hate to say it UKIP are brilliantly playing on people's fears and the easy explanation that fixing immigration is the panacea for all the UKs ills. This is borne out by the votes in SH link where he only scores strongly on immigration. Unfortunately, it's much more complex than that but a significant proportion of the electorate are unaware of the more complex issues.

The problem is compounded by a weak Labour party and leader and the fact that most Labour voters would never vote Tory. The Lib Dems have suffered by their weak position in the coalition and I fear that
a) a large number of the 'usual' electorate won't vote
b) Farage will mobilise parts of the electorate that might not normally vote
c) We'll end up with a dysfunctional parliament as it will need a multi party coalition

For the first time in my life I'm glad we have FPTP as I dread to think what kind of parliament it would be with any form PR.

The only thing that may save the Tories is that they continue to outplay everyone on the economy and that's the biggest political issue.  From my perspective I've always been a Labour supporter but left the party when we appointed Ed over David. The Unions swayed the vote thinking they could much more easily control Ed. If only David had won I think politics would be a very different place now  Come election day I have no idea what I'm going to do...
		
Click to expand...

Farage is a very capable and skilled politician. He has brought UKIP very far. 

He manages to project an everyman image despite being a multi-millionaire former public school commodity trader. 

He also knows that fear mongering and appealing to prejudice works pretty well in politics, so he is ringing that bell all the time. He further knows that his core vote is from people who dislike the conventional politicians (although many of the rest of us do too), and he therefore goads them to attack him and shore up his support. 

Bizarrely, the snap are kinda doing some of the same, knowing that the attacks Labour and the Tories make on them are perceived by some as anti-Scottish rather than anti-SNP so drives more votes to the SNP. 

Even Nick Clegg is trying some of that by getting Cameron to have a go at him thus showing the separation between the two. 

And in each case, Cameron and Moribund are falling for it.


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## c1973 (Apr 3, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Just an off the cuff unrefined thought/question, and apologies if it comes across a bit clumsy.

We're about to go through a UK general election, and there were two parties in last night's debate who want a raft of things for their respective countries, which appear to be at the expense of people in the other countries in the UK. 

Are they discriminating against the rest of the UK?
		
Click to expand...

Probably seems that way to those possibly affected, but, as much as I can't stand the snp and think their viewpoint is completely wrong, they'll be viewing it as readressing the balance, not discriminating. 

Someone is always going to benefit at someone else's expense when the cash gets shared. 



Was the gigantic Â£7 Billion hole in the snp full fiscal autonomy plans mentioned or did Lego heid dodge that bullet again? Any mention of why we have food banks up here when they've been running 'a fairer' country for 7 years or why our GDP % is lower than the UK?


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## Tiger (Apr 3, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Farage is a very capable and skilled politician. He has brought UKIP very far. 

He manages to project an everyman image despite being a multi-millionaire former public school commodity trader. 

He also knows that fear mongering and appealing to prejudice works pretty well in politics, so he is ringing that bell all the time. He further knows that his core vote is from people who dislike the conventional politicians (although many of the rest of us do too), and he therefore goads them to attack him and shore up his support. 

Bizarrely, the snap are kinda doing some of the same, knowing that the attacks Labour and the Tories make on them are perceived by some as anti-Scottish rather than anti-SNP so drives more votes to the SNP. 

Even Nick Clegg is trying some of that by getting Cameron to have a go at him thus showing the separation between the two. 

And in each case, Cameron and Moribund are falling for it.
		
Click to expand...

Very true :thup: though I think the ship has sailed for Clegg irrespective of what he does now

and Moribund... must remember that one I've often gone for Millibland. I've met him a few times and that certainly sums him up...


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2015)

Blue in Munich said:



			Interesting link.  According to that, on immigration;

The Conservatives have promised to cut net immigration to tens of thousands.

Labour state that immigration needs to be properly controlled and managed.

For the LibDems, Nick Clegg is "a believer in the benefits of well managed immigration".

UKIP want an Aussie styled points system.

Based on that, can someone explain the difference between UKIP and the 3 main parties, apart from the obvious difference that Farage is completely open about his party's views, unlike some others (yes, you Mr. Clegg).
		
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One difference is that people like to label him a Racist because he wants to control immigrant numbers.   I consider this to be a very bigoted attitude by some..


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			I'd possibly stop a bit short of that but there is no doubt that anyone voting UKIP is, at the very least, prepared to turn a blind eye to their racism, sexism and homophobia. I'd view any UKIP voter with a degree of suspicion.
		
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You appear to be a inverted example of your own prejudices !


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			You appear to be a inverted example of your own prejudices !
		
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Not sure what you mean. I've merely seen the racist, sexist and homophobic quotes attributed to UKIP candidates and officials and decided that I could never vote for them. Anyone who does is, at best, turning a blind eye to these. That seems a matter of fact rather than any prejudice on my part.


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## User20205 (Apr 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			You appear to be a inverted example of your own prejudices !
		
Click to expand...

Ignore immigration for a second, as I believe everyone believes  that needs to be addressed in some manner.

Explain to me ukips (and your) views on gay marriage?


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 3, 2015)

Tiger said:



			The media in the UK - notably the right wing press - has stirred up concern on immigration. There are many other societal issues that are causing problems in this country like aspiration and work willingness (the fact that many EU nationals are willing to work for a lower wage). However people need to understand that the benefits bill is mainly being drained by people living longer thereby swelling the pensions pot.

As much as I hate to say it UKIP are brilliantly playing on people's fears and the easy explanation that fixing immigration is the panacea for all the UKs ills. This is borne out by the votes in SH link where he only scores strongly on immigration. Unfortunately, it's much more complex than that but a significant proportion of the electorate are unaware of the more complex issues.

The problem is compounded by a weak Labour party and leader and the fact that most Labour voters would never vote Tory. The Lib Dems have suffered by their weak position in the coalition and I fear that
a) a large number of the 'usual' electorate won't vote
b) Farage will mobilise parts of the electorate that might not normally vote
c) We'll end up with a dysfunctional parliament as it will need a multi party coalition

For the first time in my life I'm glad we have FPTP as I dread to think what kind of parliament it would be with any form PR.

The only thing that may save the Tories is that they continue to outplay everyone on the economy and that's the biggest political issue.  From my perspective I've always been a Labour supporter but left the party when we appointed Ed over David. The Unions swayed the vote thinking they could much more easily control Ed. If only David had won I think politics would be a very different place now  Come election day I have no idea what I'm going to do...
		
Click to expand...

Fine post that sir.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 3, 2015)

therod said:



			Ignore immigration for a second, as I believe everyone believes  that needs to be addressed in some manner.

Explain to me ukips (and your) views on gay marriage?
		
Click to expand...

You do realise you are asking a kipper to ignore immigration . It ain't going to happen as they will self combust if they try.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2015)

therod said:



			Ignore immigration for a second, as I believe everyone believes  that needs to be addressed in some manner.

Explain to me ukips (and your) views on gay marriage?
		
Click to expand...

I am not a UKIP spokesman so have no need to speak for them. You are however free to check out their view yourself.

My own views are personal and I have no wish to discuss them with you.   Why do you ask?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			You do realise you are asking a kipper to ignore immigration . It ain't going to happen as they will self combust if they try. 

Click to expand...

Rather a childish comment Sir.   I will have different views to you but I will not try to discredit yours by insults.


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## c1973 (Apr 3, 2015)

I reckon the flip side of UKIPs 'homophobic,racist,bigoted,prejudiced' comments could (for some) be a counterbalance to all the other parties insistence that 'all women only' lists are used for selecting MPs. 

Discrimination is wrong, but it cuts both ways and I don't see any outrage over the creep of 'positive' discrimination. For me, there's no difference, discrimination is discrimination no matter how you dress it up.


One thing they have done is bring a subject, that many in power find uncomfortable (or indeed, impossible) to deal with subjectively to the table. It's obviously an issue for many people, whether we like it or not, and as a result it should be on the agenda. 

Why is it many parties appear to be doing all they can to avoid the issue, yet UKIP (rightly or wrongly, dependant on your view) are being demonised for (in their own way) proposing solutions?

Just a thought.


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## User20205 (Apr 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			I am not a UKIP spokesman so have no need to speak for them. You are however free to check out their view yourself.

My own views are personal and I have no wish to discuss them with you.   Why do you ask?
		
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You alluded to them earlier. I know you're not a spokesman for ukip, but a self confessed follower. 

I'm just looking for clarification. It's a bit of a cop out if you make it clear that you agree with their most populist  policies but duck the issue on the less palatable. 

Generally I don't understand what possible objection anyone could have about two people that love each other marrying.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Not sure what you mean. I've merely seen the racist, sexist and homophobic quotes attributed to UKIP candidates and officials and decided that I could never vote for them. Anyone who does is, at best, turning a blind eye to these. That seems a matter of fact rather than any prejudice on my part.
		
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It is your opinion and it would be best to acknowledge that rather than discredit those with a contrary viewpoint.   I guess you do accept they are entitled to their view and are entitled to vote as they see fit.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Rather a childish comment Sir.   I will have different views to you but I will not try to discredit yours by insults.
		
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Right, so you've never called me a yoghurt knitter then?   Don't play the moral high ground card/easily offended of middle England , it was said in half jest and half as a play on the fact /opinion that immigration is all kippers go on about. 

Also if you find that insulting then I'd suggest you avoid the Internet as there is a lot worse out there than some flippant comment about kippers.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2015)

therod said:



			You alluded to them earlier. I know you're not a spokesman for ukip, but a self confessed follower. 

I'm just looking for clarification. It's a bit of a cop out if you make it clear that you agree with their most populist  policies but duck the issue on the less palatable. 

Generally I don't understand what possible objection anyone could have about two people that love each other marrying.
		
Click to expand...

I have never voted UKIP and am still undecided who I will vote for this time.   I dont believe UKIP have a policy on Gay Marriage.  If you read my previous comments I suggested that there were a large number of voters who were unhappy with the way it was put into law by the Tories and along with other issues these people will turn their votes away from Labour and Conservative and to UKIP.   I was also explaining that IMO this is more of an issue that is driving us towards a Hung Parliament than the SNPs.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 3, 2015)

I think that last nights debate and the following QT shows that we are beginning to see the end of the UK two party system.

On QT Gove was savaged by the audience and the other four panel members for his crass anti SNP rant.
He looked absolutely amazed that they all ganged up on him and did not share his 'populist' view. 
I never thought I would see that in England and it made me a little more hopeful for the future of the UK.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			It is your opinion and it would be best to acknowledge that rather than discredit those with a contrary viewpoint.   I guess you do accept they are entitled to their view and are entitled to vote as they see fit.
		
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The racist, sexist and homophobic quotes from UKIP candidates and officials are a matter of fact. Anyone voting for UKIP either has not heard these quotes (seems unlikely), shares them or is prepared to turn a blind eye to them. Unless you can suggest a fourth option?


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## c1973 (Apr 3, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			The racist, sexist and homophobic quotes from UKIP candidates and officials are a matter of fact. Anyone voting for UKIP either has not heard these quotes (seems unlikely), shares them or is prepared to turn a blind eye to them. Unless you can suggest a fourth option?
		
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And anyone voting for Conservative, Labour, Lib Dems, SNP etc is prepared to turn a blind eye to corruption, theft and abuse of a public office.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 3, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			The racist, sexist and homophobic quotes from UKIP candidates and officials are a matter of fact. Anyone voting for UKIP either has not heard these quotes (seems unlikely), shares them or is prepared to turn a blind eye to them. Unless you can suggest a fourth option?
		
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4th opinion is.........They don't have a [UKIP] sense of humour.

IT WAS JUST A JOKE........Honest.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2015)

c1973 said:



			And anyone voting for Conservative, Labour, Lib Dems, SNP etc is prepared to turn a blind eye to corruption, theft and abuse of a public office.
		
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Hence why i will vote for no one


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## Pin-seeker (Apr 3, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Hence why i will vote for no one
		
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Same here,that's why I don't moan about politics.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 3, 2015)

It has started.
Next step.......North British domination then..........then the UK, Europe and finally the World.:lol:

http://wingsoverscotland.com/new-friends/


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 3, 2015)




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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 3, 2015)




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## Hacker Khan (Apr 3, 2015)

c1973 said:



			I reckon the flip side of UKIPs 'homophobic,racist,bigoted,prejudiced' comments could (for some) be a counterbalance to all the other parties insistence that 'all women only' lists are used for selecting MPs. 

Discrimination is wrong, but it cuts both ways and I don't see any outrage over the creep of 'positive' discrimination. For me, there's no difference, discrimination is discrimination no matter how you dress it up.


One thing they have done is bring a subject, that many in power find uncomfortable (or indeed, impossible) to deal with subjectively to the table. It's obviously an issue for many people, whether we like it or not, and as a result it should be on the agenda. 

Why is it many parties appear to be doing all they can to avoid the issue, yet UKIP (rightly or wrongly, dependant on your view) are being demonised for (in their own way) proposing solutions?

Just a thought.
		
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But all parties have policies on immigration. It's just they also have other issues instead of being a one issue party and ukip's immigration policy is the most extreme/racist/sensible to ensure the future of the UK, depending on your point of view. 

And as for positive discrimination then I am sure FairwayDodger made a superb defence of it in previous times. I agree that discrimination is discrimination, but one can be a force for good needed to ensure all get a fair chance and one can be a force for evil with the sole purpose of excluding minorities, or worse . And saying they are both the same is very simplistic and ignoring the current and historical context.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 3, 2015)

therod said:



			You alluded to them earlier. I know you're not a spokesman for ukip, but a self confessed follower. 

I'm just looking for clarification. It's a bit of a cop out if you make it clear that you agree with their most populist  policies but duck the issue on the less palatable. 

Generally I don't understand what possible objection anyone could have about two people that love each other marrying.
		
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I can clear that one up. As it is a change in society that happened since 1978 UKIP will be opposed to it. They have much the same policy on iPhones, coffee shops in the high street and the X Factor. Against the lot of them. Common sense.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 3, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



View attachment 14757

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That is so funny on so many levels.

Progressive Alliance getting bandied about a lot today........sounds good to me for a UK umbrella party.


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## c1973 (Apr 3, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Hence why i will vote for no one
		
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And one of the reasons why none of them will be getting my vote. :thup:



A fair bit of hypocrisy in politics concerning the portrayal of UKIP imvho though. Also a fair bit of hypocrisy coming from them as well mind you.


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## Hobbit (Apr 3, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			And as for positive discrimination then I am sure FairwayDodger made a superb defence of it in previous times. I agree that discrimination is discrimination, but one can be a force for good needed to ensure all get a fair chance and one can be a force for evil with the sole purpose of excluding minorities, or worse . And saying they are both the same is very simplistic and ignoring the current and historical context.
		
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Totally disagree! If I went for a job, and was the best person/most suited etc and I didn't get the job based on positive discrimination I would be right royally pee'd off. There is no fairness in positive discrimination - two wrongs don't make a right. All positive discrimination achieves is to build resentment, and potentially create racism in someone who wasn't previously racist.

By all means beef up the discrimination laws, especially the punishments, and forcibly enforce them.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 3, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Totally disagree! If I went for a job, and was the best person/most suited etc and I didn't get the job based on positive discrimination I would be right royally pee'd off. There is no fairness in positive discrimination - two wrongs don't make a right. All positive discrimination achieves is to build resentment, and potentially create racism in someone who wasn't previously racist.

By all means beef up the discrimination laws, especially the punishments, and forcibly enforce them.
		
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Or it could help to change attitudes in society to those that have suffered centuries of prejudice. 

I think the situation where sometime gets to interview stage and is clearly the best person for the job but doesn't get it is a bit of a red herring as on the very rare situation when applications are invited from certain areas of society, that happens when they are deciding who is being interviewed.


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## c1973 (Apr 3, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			But all parties have policies on immigration. It's just they also have other issues instead of being a one issue party and ukip's immigration policy is the most extreme/racist/sensible to ensure the future of the UK, depending on your point of view. 

And as for positive discrimination then I am sure FairwayDodger made a superb defence of it in previous times. I agree that discrimination is discrimination, *but one can be a force for good needed to ensure all get a fair chance* and one can be a force for evil with the sole purpose of excluding minorities, or worse . And saying they are both the same is very simplistic and ignoring the current and historical context.
		
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I couldn't disagree more. 

Completely agree with the rest of the sentence though. 

As for being simplistic? Simplistic is not always the wrong way to look at things.

You'll never convince me that positive discrimination is anything other than discrimination, no one will. I'd give my dying breath if it ensured genuine equality for all, but discriminating against anyone to achieve it is wrong, plain and simple. 


Any thoughts on my comment regarding the hypocrisy of turning a blind eye to UKIPs 'racism, bigotry etc' and the comparison to turning a blind eye to the 'theft,corruption,abuse of public office' by other parties?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			I can clear that one up. As it is a change in society that happened since 1978 UKIP will be opposed to it. They have much the same policy on iPhones, coffee shops in the high street and the X Factor. Against the lot of them. Common sense.
		
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I cant quite make out whether you are trying to be funny or facetious, or both.   Probably both!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			The racist, sexist and homophobic quotes from UKIP candidates and officials are a matter of fact. Anyone voting for UKIP either has not heard these quotes (seems unlikely), shares them or is prepared to turn a blind eye to them. Unless you can suggest a fourth option?
		
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How about your paranoia as a fourth!

UKIP want to MANAGE immigration on a needs basis that's controlled with a points system, please explain how that is racist?  

Please indicate where in their policy they promote homophobia?  

Can you explain which of their policies are Sexist and why?

I would appreciate answers that are factual rather than emotional please.


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## Old Skier (Apr 3, 2015)

Strange, people who have no intention of voting wasted 2 hrs of their lives.


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## c1973 (Apr 3, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			Strange, people who have no intention of voting wasted 2 hrs of their lives.
		
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I never watched the programme.


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## Old Skier (Apr 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			How about your paranoia as a fourth!

UKIP want to MANAGE immigration.
		
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A number of political parties around the world have wanted to and still do, manage immigration/homosexuals/people of different beliefs and racists. Doesn't  end up well.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			How about your paranoia as a fourth!

UKIP want to MANAGE immigration on a needs basis that's controlled with a points system, please explain how that is racist?  

Please indicate where in their policy they promote homophobia?  

Can you explain which of their policies are Sexist and why?

I would appreciate answers that are factual rather than emotional please.
		
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Paranoia, lol, who's getting emotional now? I thought you favoured discussing issues without insulting each other?

I don't believe managing immigration is racist. All I have referred to are quotes from their candidates and officials, not policies. If you don't actually recall those statements it should take you about 10 seconds to google some. These quotes reveal the truth behind the faÃ§ade.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			A number of political parties around the world have wanted to and still do, manage immigration/homosexuals/people of different beliefs and racists. Doesn't  end up well.
		
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I just dont follow your point!   I said "manage immigration on a needs bases controlled with a points system"   Whats homosexuality got to do with that?


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## Old Skier (Apr 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			I just dont follow your point!   I said "manage immigration on a needs bases controlled with a points system"   Whats homosexuality got to do with that?
		
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Mine point is, these things don't end well.


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## Ethan (Apr 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			How about your paranoia as a fourth!

UKIP want to MANAGE immigration on a needs basis that's controlled with a points system, please explain how that is racist?  

Please indicate where in their policy they promote homophobia?  

Can you explain which of their policies are Sexist and why?

I would appreciate answers that are factual rather than emotional please.
		
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UKIP desire to MANAGE immigration is based on the notions that:

- there are too many immigrants
- there are the wrong sort of immigrants
- they consume more resources than the contribute
- they are the main cause of the crisis in the NHS
- they cause the terrible traffic on the M4 that stops Dulwich Nigel getting to rabble rousing rallies

Sensible people in possession of facts have shown these to be untrue. There is no significant problem with health tourism in the NHS, indeed the NHS depends on immigrants to provide staff for services to loyal British born, cricket supporting, God Bless Her Majesty hard working families (and other cliches), immigrants make a net contribution to the economy and do many jobs the feckless locals won't do and Nigel just got stuck in traffic - it happens. 

The Australian points system resulted in an increase in net migration to Oz, but UKIP have said they want to bring net migration drastically down. That would not be possible unless the points system only allowed in doctors, nurses and the wealthy. But the country needs lots of other skills, and employers need people who will do hard manual work. UKIP adopted the Australian points model only to give the appearance they would use an objective and fair system.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Paranoia, lol, who's getting emotional now? I thought you favoured discussing issues without insulting each other?

I don't believe managing immigration is racist. All I have referred to are quotes from their candidates and officials, not policies. If you don't actually recall those statements it should take you about 10 seconds to google some. These quotes reveal the truth behind the faÃ§ade.
		
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So you refer to tittle tattle rather than policy.  If you use such methods with UKIP then do you do the same with all political parties.   There are many gems out there from all of them.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			How about your paranoia as a fourth!

UKIP want to MANAGE immigration on a needs basis that's controlled with a points system, please explain how that is racist?  

Please indicate where in their policy they promote homophobia?  

Can you explain which of their policies are Sexist and why?

I would appreciate answers that are factual rather than emotional please.
		
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Kaz never mentioned anything about policies in regards Sexist , Homophobic or Racist quotes in regards UKIP 

Believe Kaz was highlighting the number of UKIP counsellors/members etc who have been shown to display homophobic , racist and sexist views and appears to be common amongst UKIP members.


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## jp5 (Apr 3, 2015)

Ethan said:



			UKIP desire to MANAGE immigration is based on the notions that:

- there are too many immigrants
- there are the wrong sort of immigrants
- they consume more resources than the contribute
- they are the main cause of the crisis in the NHS
- they cause the terrible traffic on the M4 that stops Dulwich Nigel getting to rabble rousing rallies

Sensible people in possession of facts have shown these to be untrue. There is no significant problem with health tourism in the NHS, indeed the NHS depends on immigrants to provide staff for services to loyal British born, cricket supporting, God Bless Her Majesty hard working families (and other cliches), immigrants make a net contribution to the economy and do many jobs the feckless locals won't do and Nigel just got stuck in traffic - it happens. 

The Australian points system resulted in an increase in net migration to Oz, but UKIP have said they want to bring net migration drastically down. That would not be possible unless the points system only allowed in doctors, nurses and the wealthy. But the country needs lots of other skills, and employers need people who will do hard manual work. UKIP adopted the Australian points model only to give the appearance they would use an objective and fair system.
		
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If a country is to let in 300,000 people a year - fine with me, no problem with immigrants at all - then it needs to ensure that the country has the infrastructure to cope. And it doesn't - at least in the south east.

Either continue to allow hundreds of thousands of people in a year and, for example, ensure an adequate supply of housing, or shut off the borders. Personally I would prefer the first option, but UKIP seem to be the only party prepared to face the decision.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			So you refer to tittle tattle rather than policy.  If you use such methods with UKIP then do you do the same with all political parties.   There are many gems out there from all of them.
		
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Any forms of Racism , homophobia or sexism isn't "tittle tattle" and to dismiss it as such speaks volumes


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			So you refer to tittle tattle rather than policy.  If you use such methods with UKIP then do you do the same with all political parties.   There are many gems out there from all of them.
		
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Nope, I apply insight to UKIP as I do all other parties in order to get beyond the sanitised marketing spin of their manifestos. I take in what the parties say as a whole, rather than restricting myself to their carefully scripted and stage managed performances. It tends to be these unguarded comments that are most telling. UKIP just doesn't stand up to such scrutiny.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2015)

Ethan said:



			UKIP desire to MANAGE immigration is based on the notions that:

- there are too many immigrants
- there are the wrong sort of immigrants
- they consume more resources than the contribute
- they are the main cause of the crisis in the NHS
- they cause the terrible traffic on the M4 that stops Dulwich Nigel getting to rabble rousing rallies

Sensible people in possession of facts have shown these to be untrue. There is no significant problem with health tourism in the NHS, indeed the NHS depends on immigrants to provide staff for services to loyal British born, cricket supporting, God Bless Her Majesty hard working families (and other cliches), immigrants make a net contribution to the economy and do many jobs the feckless locals won't do and Nigel just got stuck in traffic - it happens. 

The Australian points system resulted in an increase in net migration to Oz, but UKIP have said they want to bring net migration drastically down. That would not be possible unless the points system only allowed in doctors, nurses and the wealthy. But the country needs lots of other skills, and employers need people who will do hard manual work. UKIP adopted the Australian points model only to give the appearance they would use an objective and fair system.
		
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I have previously made the point to you that it's a national disgrace  that we poach Medical Staff for the NHS that have been trained by poorer countries rather than train them ourselves.   This is also the case with tradesmen and technicians.   Regarding unskilled labour.   Immigration has lowered wages due to the unlimited supply of low cost labour from abroad.

We need to reduce immigration to a bare minimum while creating opportunities for our young people


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## c1973 (Apr 3, 2015)

Ethan said:



			UKIP desire to MANAGE immigration is based on the notions that:

- there are too many immigrants
- there are the wrong sort of immigrants
- they consume more resources than the contribute
- they are the main cause of the crisis in the NHS
- they cause the terrible traffic on the M4 that stops Dulwich Nigel getting to rabble rousing rallies

*Sensible people in possession of facts have shown these to be untrue.* There is no significant problem with health tourism in the NHS, indeed the NHS depends on immigrants to provide staff for services to loyal British born, cricket supporting, God Bless Her Majesty hard working families (and other cliches), immigrants make a net contribution to the economy and do many jobs the feckless locals won't do and Nigel just got stuck in traffic - it happens. 

The Australian points system resulted in an increase in net migration to Oz, but UKIP have said they want to bring net migration drastically down. That would not be possible unless the points system only allowed in doctors, nurses and the wealthy. But the country needs lots of other skills, and employers need people who will do hard manual work. UKIP adopted the Australian points model only to give the appearance they would use an objective and fair system.
		
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Fail to see why you included my posts with this response. Perhaps you never read them properly? You certainly never addressed any point that I may or may not have been making.

I'm perfectly capable of spotting any flaws in their manifesto for myself thank you very much. I certainly don't need anyone attempting to point them out for me, Especially someone who appears to be insinuating, imo, (albeit very subtly) that I perhaps lack the sense to do so. 
I do believe you have 'previous' in attempting to belittle others intellect on here, based on previous posts I have read. So, fill yer boots if that's what floats yer boat.


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## c1973 (Apr 3, 2015)

c1973 said:



			And anyone voting for Conservative, Labour, Lib Dems, SNP etc is prepared to turn a blind eye to corruption, theft and abuse of a public office.
		
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It's interesting (to me anyway) that all those attacking UKIP for previously mentioned points have failed to address the above point (LP aside). 
Am I the only one who can see the hypocrisy in condoning UKIP (rightly imo) for comments made while voting for other parties whos MPs have been thieving and abusing public office for (quite possibly) decades?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2015)

Obviously to limit immigrants coming into the country would need the UK to control its borders and it's been suggested that an Australian points systems to be used

I understand ( happy to be corrected ) that this won't be allowed whilst we are members of the EU 

Farage and his party has stated that closing the borders will save the country Â£20billion - not sure how he has arrived at this figure and can't see anywhere to find where he gets the figure but the question I have to ask is how much would it cost the country if we were to leave the EU - how many companies would leave the UK , how many jobs would be lost , how much would it effect the finances of the country ?


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 3, 2015)

c1973 said:



			It's interesting (to me anyway) that all those attacking UKIP for previously mentioned points have failed to address the above point (LP aside). 
Am I the only one who can see the hypocrisy in condoning UKIP (rightly imo) for comments made while voting for other parties whos MPs have been thieving and abusing public office for (quite possibly) decades?
		
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Sorry, I thought that was a rhetorical rant. Are you suggesting that people of clear conscience can't vote for any party in the upcoming election?


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## c1973 (Apr 3, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Obviously to limit immigrants coming into the country would need the UK to control its borders and it's been suggested that an Australian points systems to be used

I understand ( happy to be corrected ) that this won't be allowed whilst we are members of the EU 

Farage and his party has stated that closing the borders will save the country Â£20billion - not sure how he has arrived at this figure and can't see anywhere to find where he gets the figure but the question I have to ask is how much would it cost the country if we were to leave the EU - how many companies would leave the UK , how many jobs would be lost , how much would it effect the finances of the country ?
		
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Personally I think we would lose out if we left the EU. Only a hunch though, as I genuinely don't think anyone would actually be capable of predicting what would happen. 
I do think we have sleepwalked into a federal state (of sorts) that we never signed up for in the first place. 

Just a personal belief with limited regard to facts though.


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## c1973 (Apr 3, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Sorry, I thought that was a rhetorical rant. Are you suggesting that people of clear conscience can't vote for any party in the upcoming election?
		
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No. Certainly not a rant. A well reasoned point I believe.

Read it again. The sheer hypocrisy is pretty obvious to me. As I said, its one of the reasons not one of them will be getting my vote. 

Not sure my conscience would be clear if I did vote for a party embroiled in expense scandals, cash for questions etc,  anymore than it would if I voted for someone who was racist.  You wouldn't put a thief in charge of your friends housekeeping would you?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			I have never voted UKIP and am still undecided who I will vote for this time.   I dont believe UKIP have a policy on Gay Marriage.  If you read my previous comments I suggested that there were a large number of voters who were unhappy with the way it was put into law by the Tories and along with other issues these people will turn their votes away from Labour and Conservative and to UKIP.   I was also explaining that IMO this is more of an issue that is driving us towards a Hung Parliament than the SNPs.
		
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Who are these "large" number of voters who have an issue with a law allowing gay marriages to happen ? Not really heard or seen many people having a problem with two people who love each other getting married regardless of their sexual orientation - can't really see how it effects anyone in a negative way ? 

I can understand some religious people having some issues with it but "large" numbers ?


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 3, 2015)

c1973 said:



			No. Certainly not a rant. A well reasoned point I believe.

Read it again. The sheer hypocrisy is pretty obvious to me. As I said, its one of the reasons not one of them will be getting my vote. 

Not sure my conscience would be clear if I did vote for a party embroiled in expense scandals, cash for questions etc,  anymore than it would if I voted for someone who was racist.  You wouldn't put a thief in charge of your friends housekeeping would you?
		
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No, I don't see any hypocrisy but you're certainly shooting out in all directions to deflect from criticism of UKIP. 

I believe it's important to vote for somebody. I'm not arguing that point because I know others have a different take on it and I think it's a matter of personal conscience. But, for me, that means I have to choose even if it means voting for the best of a bad bunch. 

Are you talking about the MP expenses scandal or something more? Assuming the former, all parties were caught up in it. If my MP had crossed the line I wouldn't vote for him again but I need to vote for someone so would have to make a choice.

If all the parties were racist, sexist and homophobic I'd still have to choose one to vote for. Fortunately, they're not all like that so I can rule out those that are.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			No, I don't see any hypocrisy but you're certainly shooting out in all directions to deflect from criticism of UKIP. 

I believe it's important to vote for somebody. I'm not arguing that point because I know others have a different take on it and I think it's a matter of personal conscience. But, for me, that means I have to choose even if it means voting for the best of a bad bunch. 

Are you talking about the MP expenses scandal or something more? Assuming the former, all parties were caught up in it. If my MP had crossed the line I wouldn't vote for him again but I need to vote for someone so would have to make a choice.

If all the parties were racist, sexist and homophobic I'd still have to choose one to vote for. Fortunately, they're not all like that so I can rule out those that are.
		
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Why do you "have" to vote for someone ? 

Surely you wouldn't be vote for soneone you want or trust etc if you feel you "have" or "need" to vote for someone ? 

Surely when someone votes it's because they "want" to vote for the person that represents their views - as opposed to the next best thing ?


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 3, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Why do you "have" to vote for someone ? 

Surely you wouldn't be vote for soneone you want or trust etc if you feel you "have" or "need" to vote for someone ? 

Surely when someone votes it's because they "want" to vote for the person that represents their views - as opposed to the next best thing ?
		
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As I said, I'm not arguing that point. It's how I feel, accept it. You can vote or not, I don't care.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			As I said, I'm not arguing that point. It's how I feel, accept it. You can vote or not, I don't care.
		
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I guess I just don't understand it and was hoping you could explain ( not looking to argue )


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2015)

Whilst I wouldn't criticize anyone who decided not to vote, I can't help but feel that, as far as protests go, it's fairly pointless. I wouldn't vote for anyone who was found guilty of expense fraud, cash for questions etc. However, refusing to vote at all makes zero difference to that person. In fact, it could be argued that it assists the morally bankrupt as your vote hasn't shifted to another candidate. 

Apathy is the enemy of democracy and is what has allowed our democratic system to become as corrupt as it is..


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## 6inchcup (Apr 3, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I guess I just don't understand it and was hoping you could explain ( not looking to argue )
		
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that will be a first then


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Whilst I wouldn't criticize anyone who decided not to vote, I can't help but feel that, as far as protests go, it's fairly pointless. I wouldn't vote for anyone who was found guilty of expense fraud, cash for questions etc. However, refusing to vote at all makes zero difference to that person. In fact, it could be argued that it assists the morally bankrupt as your vote hasn't shifted to another candidate. 

Apathy is the enemy of democracy and is what has allowed our democratic system to become as corrupt as it is..
		
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It's not a protest vote though - it's feeling a lack of trust or respect of belief in any party 

I think they all only looking after one person - themselves. I think they are all as bad as each other and can't vote for someone I have no trust for and will only be looking after themselves.

I would like a box on the ballot paper that says - none of them above.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2015)

6inchcup said:



			that will be a first then      

Click to expand...

Oh dear


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 3, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I guess I just don't understand it and was hoping you could explain ( not looking to argue )
		
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It's been done to death and always ends in an argument. I think everyone should vote but I'm not an evangelist about it so don't get worked up whether others do or not. But I'll always vote if I'm able.

To be honest, it's tricky this year as there are more reasons not to vote for the various candidates than to actually vote for any of them. But I'll still vote and I know who I plan to vote for, at the moment!


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## c1973 (Apr 3, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			No, I don't see any hypocrisy but you're certainly shooting out in all directions to deflect from criticism of UKIP. 

I believe it's important to vote for somebody. I'm not arguing that point because I know others have a different take on it and I think it's a matter of personal conscience. But, for me, that means I have to choose even if it means voting for the best of a bad bunch. 

Are you talking about the MP expenses scandal or something more? Assuming the former, all parties were caught up in it. If my MP had crossed the line I wouldn't vote for him again but I need to vote for someone so would have to make a choice.

If all the parties were racist, sexist and homophobic *I'd still have to choose one to vote for.* Fortunately, they're not all like that so I can rule out those that are.
		
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I'm certainly not shooting out in all directions to deflect criticism from UKIP. I have no desire to defend them, I was merely highlighting what I believe is the hypocrisy of many voters.

My point was, I believe, quite clear. 



I'm assuming (from the highlighted part) that you believe in voting for someone rather than no one. That's great if that's your belief. No problem with that. Apologies if I'm wrong in my assumption.

My belief is that a party where members have made racist, homophobic etc comments are no better or worse than a party whose members have abused expenses, taken cash for questions/access etc.  None of them imo are fit to hold office.

I believe that condemning the former yet condoning the later (by voting for them) is hypocritical. You (and others) obviously don't as far as I can tell.
We differ in our opinion if that is the case.


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's not a protest vote though - it's feeling a lack of trust or respect of belief in any party 

I think they all only looking after one person - themselves. I think they are all as bad as each other and can't vote for someone I have no trust for and will only be looking after themselves.

I would like a box on the ballot paper that says - none of them above.
		
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Strangely enough, it's this feeling of general apathy that has allowed things to become as "corrupt" as they are. We all turned our backs, and the snouts hit the trough.. If the political parties realized that a tainted candidate could cost them seats, then they would soon become more alert. We need to make them accountable. And refraining from voting does not do that..


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 3, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Whilst I wouldn't criticize anyone who decided not to vote, I can't help but feel that, as far as protests go, it's fairly pointless. I wouldn't vote for anyone who was found guilty of expense fraud, cash for questions etc. However, refusing to vote at all makes zero difference to that person. In fact, it could be argued that it assists the morally bankrupt as your vote hasn't shifted to another candidate. 

Apathy is the enemy of democracy and is what has allowed our democratic system to become as corrupt as it is..
		
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Good post that sir


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## c1973 (Apr 3, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			Good post that sir
		
Click to expand...


Ok. 

Here's your choice of leaders.

A) a racist.
B) a bigot.
C) a Nazi.

Who ye voting for then?  

Simplistic, I know. But, I'll go for voter apathy and not vote.


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Ok. 

Here's your choice of leaders.

A) a racist.
B) a bigot.
C) a Nazi.

Who ye voting for then?  

Simplistic, I know. But, I'll go for voter apathy and not vote.  

Click to expand...

Is this the St Helens by-election?

If that (amazing) selection is what the political parties offered, then I would make it my job to make sure that each political party was hit by a media spotlight. If that didn't work, then I'd probably stand against them as an independent.. I've got feck all else to do after June...


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Strangely enough, it's this feeling of general apathy that has allowed things to become as "corrupt" as they are. We all turned our backs, and the snouts hit the trough.. If the political parties realized that a tainted candidate could cost them seats, then they would soon become more alert. We need to make them accountable. And refraining from voting does not do that..
		
Click to expand...

But they are all tainted in some way - so who gets the vote ? The one less tainted


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## c1973 (Apr 3, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Is this the St Helens by-election?

If that (amazing) selection is what the political parties offered, then I would make it my job to make sure that each political party was hit by a media spotlight. If that didn't work, then I'd probably stand against them as an independent.. *I've got feck all else to do after June*...
		
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Now (provided yer not going to fiddle expenses) that's the kind of honesty that could get my vote.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 3, 2015)

c1973 said:



			My belief is that a party where members have made racist, homophobic etc comments are no better or worse than a party whose members have abused expenses, taken cash for questions/access etc.  None of them imo are fit to hold office.
		
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Without condoning anything it should be obvious that different "offences" have a different connotation to different individuals. As someone who has experienced rather a lot of homophobic abuse and discrimination it's a red line issue for me, something that is very real in my life rather than the somewhat more remote notion of MPs flipping homes to benefit from a lax expenses regime.

In your case, I suspect that sexism, racism and homophobia are also remote concepts you deplore but have no direct experience of, which makes it easier for you to equate them with the expenses scandal.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 3, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			Strange, people who have no intention of voting wasted 2 hrs of their lives.
		
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:lol: well spotted.


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			But they are all tainted in some way - so who gets the vote ? The one less tainted
		
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How is each individual candidate tainted? Do you know them personally? You are making the "Easy" choice by abstaining. You are actively encouraging the system you despise.. You have to know that the only real power in a democracy is the electorate.. By abstaining from voting, you are giving power to the amoral, criminal politicians..


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Now (provided yer not going to fiddle expenses) that's the kind of honesty that could get my vote. 

Click to expand...

Lol.. I have numerous issues, but one thing I am not is a thief..


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2015)

Another quesiton 

As I was growing up I always believed that Labour used to look after the working people and the Tories used to look after the rich and suits 

These days it seems that no one looks after general Jo public - the rich seem to get richer whilst everyone else works their butts off every day but are an afterthought 

None of the leaders of Prob imo have done an honest days work in their life - so how can they look after the majority of the country - why do the rich seem to get richer , how can someone born with a silver spoon preach about looking after the working population ? 

Is there someone out there who is close to the majority of the population , someone who understands and can be respectes , someone who can be trusted and will do their best to try and change things ? If there is someone who can do that then he and his party would get my vote


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			How is each individual candidate tainted? Do you know them personally? You are making the "Easy" choice by abstaining. You are actively encouraging the system you despise.. You have to know that the only real power in a democracy is the electorate.. By abstaining from voting, you are giving power to the amoral, criminal politicians..
		
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Sorry I'll re word it - every party is tainted and that person represents that party 

It's not the easy choice not to vote - I believe it's the right thing to do if someone believes there is no one that deserves their vote.


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## c1973 (Apr 3, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			Without condoning anything it should be obvious that different "offences" have a different connotation to different individuals. As someone who has experienced rather a lot of homophobic abuse and discrimination it's a red line issue for me, something that is very real in my life rather than the somewhat more remote notion of MPs flipping homes to benefit from a lax expenses regime.

In your case, I suspect that sexism, racism and homophobia are also remote concepts you deplore but have no direct experience of, which makes it easier for you to equate them with the expenses scandal.
		
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I understand what you're saying. 

I'm sticking to my belief that neither is fit to hold office though. 

And yes, they are concepts I most definitely deplore. :thup:


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## MegaSteve (Apr 3, 2015)

I can say with some [100%] degree of certainty that two of the parties on view last night will not be getting my vote.. The same, lack of choice, will be the case for the vast majority of us which is why I thought their inclusion a waste of effort... Same goes for the tool that insisted on their inclusion... So, that's three out of the running leaving another half-dozen or so to consider before arriving as to who gets my nod...  And, for all of that effort I'll still get the chap wearing the blue rosette...


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 3, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Ok. 

Here's your choice of leaders.

A) a racist.
B) a bigot.
C) a Nazi.

Who ye voting for then?  

Simplistic, I know. But, I'll go for voter apathy and not vote.  

Click to expand...

It's it a trick question and the mystery person behind all 3 is Farage?


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## c1973 (Apr 3, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			It's it a trick question and the mystery person behind all 3 is Farage?
		
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I'll let you off with that one then.


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry I'll re word it - every party is tainted and that person represents that party 

It's not the easy choice not to vote - I believe it's the right thing to do if someone believes there is no one that deserves their vote.
		
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Then vote for the independent. As I said, by not shifting your vote to another candidate, you are not punishing the politician. You are making it easier for them.. You are turning your back on a criminal.. What do you expect them to do?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			It's been done to death and always ends in an argument. I think everyone should vote but I'm not an evangelist about it so don't get worked up whether others do or not. But I'll always vote if I'm able.

To be honest, it's tricky this year as there are more reasons not to vote for the various candidates than to actually vote for any of them. But I'll still vote and I know who I plan to vote for, at the moment!
		
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Cheers for answering - as I said I wasn't looking to create an argument :thup:


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## c1973 (Apr 3, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Then vote for the independent. As I said, by not shifting your vote to another candidate, you are not punishing the politician. You are making it easier for them.. You are turning your back on a criminal.. What do you expect them to do?
		
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What if you're options are to switch from one political belief to its polar opposite though? 

I get what you're saying, but I couldn't go against my broad political beliefs. 

It should be easier to 'sack' them, that would work.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Then vote for the independent. As I said, by not shifting your vote to another candidate, you are not punishing the politician. You are making it easier for them.. You are turning your back on a criminal.. What do you expect them to do?
		
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Only four candidates in my area during last election 

Tory
Labour
UKIP 
BNP


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## Foxholer (Apr 3, 2015)

From the posts on here, and my own observations of the 'debate', I don't believe it either changed anybody's mind or even provided much benefit for the participants!

Can anyone say that's not the case? 

To me, Clegg came across weaker than I expected, so can see how the gains he made - because of the debates - last time will disappear.


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## CMAC (Apr 3, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



*I can say with some [100%] degree of certainty that two of the parties on view last night will not be getting my vote..* The same, lack of choice, will be the case for the vast majority of us which is why I thought their inclusion a waste of effort... Same goes for the tool that insisted on their inclusion... So, that's three out of the running leaving another half-dozen or so to consider before arriving as to who gets my nod...  And, for all of that effort I'll still get the chap wearing the blue rosette...
		
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I can say with certainty that 6 of them last night wont be getting your vote (if you vote that is)


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 3, 2015)

If Clegg has any sense he should think about heading up a 3rd party 'progressive alliance' to attract disenfranchised English voters.
Join up with the Nationalist parties and both green parties to keep Cameron and Milliband honest.


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Only four candidates in my area during last election 

Tory
Labour
UKIP 
BNP
		
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If my preferred Party fielded a convicted expenses cheat/cash for questions proponent, then I would do everything I could to ensure the Party were aware of my complaint. I don't remember too many criminals being put forward though. I would still vote.

Quite strange that you had so few options. Even in my area (which is a Labour stronghold) we had several independents, a Lib Dem, a Green, BNP, UKIP, Labour, Conservative.. 
As an aside, I like my local MP. I've spoken to her several times and she always seems to be genuinely interested in the people she represents. There may be people in the Party that break the rules, but turning away from the Party because of that doesn't sit well with me really..


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			If my preferred Party fielded a convicted expenses cheat/cash for questions proponent, then I would do everything I could to ensure the Party were aware of my complaint. I don't remember too many criminals being put forward though. I would still vote.

Quite strange that you had so few options. Even in my area (which is a Labour stronghold) we had several independents, a Lib Dem, a Green, BNP, UKIP, Labour, Conservative.. 
As an aside, I like my local MP. I've spoken to her several times and she always seems to be genuinely interested in the people she represents. There may be people in the Party that break the rules, but turning away from the Party because of that doesn't sit well with me really..
		
Click to expand...

Right now I believe UKIP/BNP to be riddled with racists and their policies have zero substances so would never vote for them

Labour and Tory imo are two of the same 

So that's the four parties in my area

Lib Dems seem to be trying to look a bit further than themselves but not sure if there will be a candidate here. 

Green Party have great ideas but just impossible to happen

If forced I would look to Lib Dems


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			If forced I would look to Lib Dems
		
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The poor old Lib Dems.. If they knew back then, exactly what Clegg's desire to be in power would do to them, they probably wouldn't have formed a coalition 
I have in the past voted Lib Dem. It was a protest (of sorts). I would probably look for an independent who was fighting for a worthwhile local issue now..


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			The poor old Lib Dems.. If they knew back then, exactly what Clegg's desire to be in power would do to them, they probably wouldn't have formed a coalition 
I have in the past voted Lib Dem. It was a protest (of sorts). I would probably look for an independent who was fighting for a worthwhile local issue now..
		
Click to expand...

I actually like Clegg and think his ideas are certainly a lot closer to the normal people 

Just been royally screwed by the joining with the Tories


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I actually like Clegg and think his ideas are certainly a lot closer to the normal people 

Just been royally screwed by the joining with the Tories
		
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Every time I see him, I can't shake the feeling that he was blinded by the bright light of Power in 2010... He seems a decent bloke but he seems to struggle against the real Political heavyweights..


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## MegaSteve (Apr 3, 2015)

Vote Clegg you get Cable who has recently overseen 'us' being done out of millions with the sale of Royal Mail...


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 3, 2015)

Clegg and Alexander have done a decent job of controlling the worst aspects of the Tory's.
Seems a shame their talents will probably be lost to the UK.


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## bluewolf (Apr 3, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			Vote Clegg you get Cable who has recently overseen 'us' being done out of millions with the sale of Royal Mail...
		
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Some people made plenty of money out of it though...


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## MegaSteve (Apr 3, 2015)

CMAC said:



			I can say with certainty that 6 of them last night wont be getting your vote (if you vote that is)
		
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Most likely none of the seven will be getting my X... Hoping for a decent independent to be on offer... Quite likely the next time I'll be voting will be for London's mayor... My hope for that post guesting on This Week last night...


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## MegaSteve (Apr 3, 2015)

bluewolf said:



			Some people made plenty of money out of it though...

Click to expand...

The chosen few certainly did ...


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 3, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			The chosen few certainly did ...
		
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Oor Postie is still smiling.
Paid for his house extension.


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 3, 2015)

c1973 said:



			I'll let you off with that one then. 

Click to expand...

If you want a serious answer then the situation you described would not happen the UK. And if you were elsewhere and this was your only choice then a no vote is a good protest. But in the UK I feel there is a choice for everyone, be you a bigot, racist, tree hugger, yoghurt knitter, bedwetter, leek eater, kilt wearer, communist or considerably richer than yow.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 3, 2015)

Hacker Khan said:



			But in the UK I feel there is a choice for everyone,
		
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Not for me... For me to vote, for any that are currently on offer, would require me to make way to big a compromise on my part for the aspirations for my country...


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Clegg and Alexander have done a decent job of controlling the worst aspects of the Tory's.
Seems a shame their talents will probably be lost to the UK.
		
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From my view the Tory's have done a good job irrespective of being held back by the Lib/Dems.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Who are these "large" number of voters who have an issue with a law allowing gay marriages to happen ? Not really heard or seen many people having a problem with two people who love each other getting married regardless of their sexual orientation - can't really see how it effects anyone in a negative way ? 

I can understand some religious people having some issues with it but "large" numbers ?
		
Click to expand...

Half the Conservative MP's voted against it and a great number of constituency managers warned that it was dividing membership.  If you cant understand who it may affect in a negative way then look no further than your beloved Multiculturalism, all Muslims, Jews and Roman Catholics are against it for a start.   Thats quite a lot of people but also add a great deal of Mid-Englanders to that.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2015)

What is a mid Englander ? And great deal - again is that in a poll somewhere or they have been asked 

So half the MP 's - that's a couple hundred - so not large really considering and again it's all guess work isn't based on your own views.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 3, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What is a mid Englander ? And great deal - again is that in a poll somewhere or they have been asked 

So half the MP 's - that's a couple hundred - so not large really considering and again it's all guess work isn't based on your own views.
		
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Guess work?  No guess work there, the vote is available for all to see.

You have never heard of Mid or Middle Englanders!   you surprise me , you really do!


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Guess work?  No guess work there, the vote is available for all to see.

You have never heard of Mid or Middle Englanders!   you surprise me , you really do!
		
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This should help him :thup: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_England


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 3, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Guess work?  No guess work there, the vote is available for all to see.

You have never heard of Mid or Middle Englanders!   you surprise me , you really do!
		
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The guess work is suggesting "large" numbers 

And yes I have never heard of mid englanders


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## CMAC (Apr 3, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The guess work is suggesting "large" numbers 

And yes I have never heard of mid englanders
		
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near Middle Earth


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## SocketRocket (Apr 4, 2015)

CMAC said:



			near Middle Earth 

Click to expand...

Yea, Milton Keynes! :smirk:


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## Foxholer (Apr 4, 2015)

Without sending this thread further off-topic than it already is (it seems to have taken over from the 'Election 2015' one rather than what the Title is!).....



SocketRocket said:



			Half the Conservative MP's voted against it and a great number of constituency managers warned that it was dividing membership.  If you cant understand who it may affect in a negative way then look no further than your beloved Multiculturalism, all Muslims, Jews and Roman Catholics are against it for a start.   Thats quite a lot of people but also add a great deal of Mid-Englanders to that.
		
Click to expand...

And with all those groups 'against' it, surveys still indicated that the majority of the UK Electorate were in favour of it! I would also expect that a high number of Conservatives to vote against the Bill, as they are by inclination...conservative! It wasn't half though, but was more than voted for it!



SocketRocket said:





therod said:



			,,,
Explain to me ukips (and your) views on gay marriage?
		
Click to expand...

I am not a UKIP spokesman so have no need to speak for them. You are however free to check out their view yourself.

*My own views are personal and I have no wish to discuss them with you.*

Click to expand...

Seems you are happy (keen even) to discuss the subject all the same! Does that mean you have a particular view (different to what Parliament's one was)? Or are you merely highlighting the nature of the Westminister system when an issue that is not part of the Government's Manifesto arises?


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## c1973 (Apr 4, 2015)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...la-Sturgeon-secretly-backs-David-Cameron.html

It would appear that Sturgeon actually backs a Tory government in private while she scrambles about claiming she wants to work with Labour (after saying she won't) to 'lock the Torys out'.  

The memorandum which was written by a senior British civil servant, dated March 6th, states: "Just had a telephone conversation with Pierre-Alain Coffinier (PAC), the French CG [consul-general]. He was keen to fill me in on some of the conversations his Ambassador had during her visit to Scotland last week. All of this was given on a confidential basis."
It continues: "The Ambassador....had a truncated meeting with the FM [Nicola Sturgeon, the First Minister] (FM running late after a busy Thursdayâ€¦). Discussion appears to have focused mainly on the political situation, with the FM stating that she wouldnâ€™t want a formal coalition with Labour; that the SNP would almost certainly have a large number of seats... *that sheâ€™d rather see David Cameron remain as PM *(and didnâ€™t see Ed Miliband as PM material)."


Aye, only the SNP have Scotland's best interests at heart!  Since when did the majority of Scots think Cameron was good for us? 


What a tangled web we weave............


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 4, 2015)

Aye, that one is up there with the bombing Scottish airports and forcing Scots to drive on the left stuff.
Amazing what some folk actually believe.

Please read the facts and not what was planted by the 'Ministry of Disinformation'.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Aye, that one is up there with the bombing Scottish airports and forcing Scots to drive on the left stuff.
Amazing what some folk actually believe.

Please read the facts and not what was planted by the 'Ministry of Disinformation'.
		
Click to expand...


And you know this story to be untrue. Why?

Because a politician says so?

Let's face it all politicians, like journalists, have the same potential for misleading the public.


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## CMAC (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Aye, that one is up there with the bombing Scottish airports and forcing Scots to drive on the left stuff.
Amazing what some folk actually believe.

Please read the facts and not what was *planted by the 'Ministry of Disinformation*'.
		
Click to expand...

are you not the head of that organisation


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## c1973 (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Aye, that one is up there with the bombing Scottish airports and forcing Scots to drive on the left stuff.
Amazing what some folk actually believe.

*Please read the facts* and not what was planted by the 'Ministry of Disinformation'.
		
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Aye, along with the claim that legal advice had been sought and given (it hadn't) with regards to an independent Scotland joining the EU. 

Tell me, from your undoubtedly vast political knowledge, how much public money did the snp spend taking this to court to prevent the truth (that they blatantly lied to public and parliament alike) from coming out?  
Facts? The snp and there support wouldn't know a fact if it bit them on the arse!

You carry on up the garden path with them auld yin. 


The highlighted part gave me a right good chuckle btw. :thup:

BTW, I've always driven on the left......do you not? 

Oh, and one of our airports was attacked....did you miss that fact?


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## SocketRocket (Apr 4, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Without sending this thread further off-topic than it already is (it seems to have taken over from the 'Election 2015' one rather than what the Title is!).....



And with all those groups 'against' it, surveys still indicated that the majority of the UK Electorate were in favour of it! I would also expect that a high number of Conservatives to vote against the Bill, as they are by inclination...conservative! It wasn't half though, but was more than voted for it!



Seems you are happy (keen even) to discuss the subject all the same! Does that mean you have a particular view (different to what Parliament's one was)? Or are you merely highlighting the nature of the Westminister system when an issue that is not part of the Government's Manifesto arises?
		
Click to expand...

The Gay Marriage issue is a bit of a red herring.   I suggested a whole raft of issues that had affected many Tory's and also Labour supporters.   I suggested that due to these issues many had become disenfranchised and were now supporting UKIP, suggesting that this was a major influence on their increased ratings in the polls.


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## Ethan (Apr 4, 2015)

Sturgeon's words would probably resonate with a lot of people. She naturally wants SNP to win every seat but  reluctantly sees Cameron as a competent and plausible PM than Ed. I watched that leaders debate and cringed almost every time Ed said something. And I have never voted Tory in my life.


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## Old Skier (Apr 4, 2015)

As the SNP have no interest in the democratic principles I'm not sure why she was invited to take part in the debate.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 4, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Sturgeon's words would probably resonate with a lot of people. She naturally wants SNP to win every seat but  reluctantly sees Cameron as a competent and plausible PM than Ed. I watched that leaders debate and cringed almost every time Ed said something. And I have never voted Tory in my life.
		
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Ethan.... they were not her words.

They were inserted up by a minor Whitehall staffer trying to please his boss.


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## Val (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Aye, that one is up there with the bombing Scottish airports and forcing Scots to drive on the left stuff.
Amazing what some folk actually believe.

Please read the facts and not what was planted by the 'Ministry of Disinformation'.
		
Click to expand...

The problem the SNP have is people will believe it, then people will lose trust.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 4, 2015)

I know it's a BBC report but I think the French diplomats comments are pretty clear. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32177315


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## c1973 (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ethan.... they were not her words.

*They were inserted up by a minor Whitehall staffer trying to please his boss.*

Click to expand...

You know this how?

It wouldn't be the first time the snp have been caught out lying (as pointed out earlier) would it? 
Why should we believe them now?  

It would suit their long term separatist agenda better, and most people with even the vaguest understanding of politics should be able to see that.


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## c1973 (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I know it's a BBC report but I think the French diplomats comments are pretty clear. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32177315

Click to expand...

Well, the French consul based in Edinburgh would deny it wouldn't he.  He'll want this forgotten about asap.


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## Old Skier (Apr 4, 2015)




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## MegaSteve (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I know it's a BBC report but I think the French diplomats comments are pretty clear. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32177315

Click to expand...


Yep, its pretty clear he is shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted...


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 4, 2015)

c1973 said:



			You know this how?

It wouldn't be the first time the snp have been caught out lying (as pointed out earlier) would it? 
Why should we believe them now?  

It would suit their long term separatist agenda better, and most people with even the vaguest understanding of politics should be able to see that.
		
Click to expand...

Why is Cameron quoting this false comment today.
Is he really so desperate to try to benefit from an obviously false document issued by his government.
Interesting to see the Foreign Office now claim that no such document exists. [so how could it be leaked]


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## c1973 (Apr 4, 2015)

You have to ask yourself, in order to make your mind up, have the Telegraph got previous for exposing ministerial 'misunderstandings',and, have the snp got previous for blatantly lying to the public?

Yes, on both counts. 

I'll go with the investigative reporter on this one.


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## Old Skier (Apr 4, 2015)

Politicians are know for their lies and deception. I believe both sides


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## c1973 (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Why is Cameron quoting this false comment today.
Is he really so desperate to try to benefit from an obviously false document issued by his government.
Interesting to see the Foreign Office now claim that no such document exists. [so how could it be leaked]
		
Click to expand...

Politics, dear boy, politics. 

Why would they admit to interfering? Would you? Would the snp (even when caught lying)?


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## c1973 (Apr 4, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			Politicians are know for their lies and deception. I believe both sides 

Click to expand...

Yes indeed. Used to be those caught blatantly lying to their parliament done the decent thing and removed themselves from office though.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Ethan.... they were not her words.

They were inserted up by a minor Whitehall staffer trying to please his boss.
		
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"Said the SNP's Propaganda Minister."


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 4, 2015)

Seems some on here are quite happy to have the UK government's officers spreading false propaganda against one of it's political parties.
I am more than a bit concerned about it myself. Start of a slippery slope.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Seems some on here are quite happy to have the UK government's officers spreading false propaganda against Scotland.

I am more than a bit concerned about it myself. Start of a slippery slope.
		
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I'm pretty sure for you to be making statements like that you will be able to prove your accusations ?


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Seems some on here are quite happy to have the UK government's officers spreading false propaganda against Scotland.

I am more than a bit concerned about it myself. Start of a slippery slope.
		
Click to expand...

Why/how are you so sure that it's false? Do you have anything to prove that or is it just that Sturgeon said it didn't happen?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Seems some on here are quite happy to have the UK government's officers spreading false propaganda against Scotland.

I am more than a bit concerned about it myself. Start of a slippery slope.
		
Click to expand...

But you have still failed to show how you *know *it to be false information. 

Please don't tell me "Because Nicola Sturgeon says so." I don't believe that even you are that gullible.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 4, 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ErOz3_ARgI

That do you.

Have you actually engaged in this or are you just reading posts from your mates.

Just google it FGS.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ErOz3_ARgI

That do you.

Have you actually engaged in this or are you just reading posts from your mates.

Just google it FGS.
		
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Google shows no proof also

Please post your proof to back up your accusations of false propaganda from UK Governement Officials against Scotland


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## Hobbit (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Why is Cameron quoting this false comment today.
Is he really so desperate to try to benefit from an obviously false document issued by his government.
Interesting to see the Foreign Office now claim that no such document exists. [so how could it be leaked]
		
Click to expand...

"Obviously false document..." You at it again Doon?

C'mon then, prove it! 

Or is this like the Indepence thread where you continually posted stuff that you could substantiate...?


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## Old Skier (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Seems some on here are quite happy to have the UK government's officers spreading false propaganda against one of it's political parties.
I am more than a bit concerned about it myself. Start of a slippery slope.
		
Click to expand...

Bit like supporting an undemocratic party. Each to his own.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ErOz3_ARgI

That do you.

Have you actually engaged in this or are you just reading posts from your mates.

Just google it FGS.
		
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Even by your standards that's a new low. Posting a link to a "spoof" interview.

I accept that it would be devastating to you to accept that Ms Sturgeon and the SNP are just like all other politicians and parties in being capable of duplicitous behaviour but that's the way it is.

Can you, just for a moment, imagine it is true and she has been caught making an unguarded comment, albeit off the record that caused her and the party embarrassment. Would you really expect her to admit it?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 4, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Even by your standards that's a new low. Posting a link to a "spoof" interview.

I accept that it would be devastating to you to accept that Ms Sturgeon and the SNP are just like all other politicians and parties in being capable of duplicitous behaviour but that's the way it is.

Can you, just for a moment, imagine it is true and she has been caught making an unguarded comment, albeit off the record that caused her and the party embarrassment. Would you really expect her to admit it?
		
Click to expand...

.......you 'forgot' to mention the French UK ambassador, the French consul in Edinburgh and the Foreign Office.
All lying?

Just Google it.......all your answers are there.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			.......you 'forgot' to mention the French UK ambassador, the French consul in Edinburgh and the Foreign Office.
All lying?
		
Click to expand...

Provide proof to your statement of accusation.


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## Val (Apr 4, 2015)

Of course the SNP will deny it and the sheep will buy it as always


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## c1973 (Apr 4, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Even by your standards that's a new low. Posting a link to a "spoof" interview.

I accept that it would be devastating to you to accept that Ms Sturgeon and the SNP are just like all other politicians and parties in being capable of duplicitous behaviour but that's the way it is.

Can you, just for a moment, imagine it is true and she has been caught making an unguarded comment, albeit off the record that caused her and the party embarrassment. Would you really expect her to admit it?
		
Click to expand...

There might be something on the 'news' about it. 

https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=m5ZE0GYf0Jw

:rofl:


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			.......you 'forgot' to mention the French UK ambassador, the French consul in Edinburgh and the Foreign Office.
All lying?

Just Google it.......all your answers are there.
		
Click to expand...

Talking of Google, how did you get on googling Fiscal deficit in Scotland?

Never heard from you, wonder why?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Provide proof to your statement of accusation.
		
Click to expand...

Google their comments. m'lud


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			.......you 'forgot' to mention the French UK ambassador, the French consul in Edinburgh and the Foreign Office.
All lying?

Just Google it.......all your answers are there.
		
Click to expand...

There is no proof that she didn't say it. There are simply reports from various people all who would be better off if the story went away.

Your "proof" that she didn't say it is that 4 people have said so. There are thousands of people in America that say the moon landings didn't happen. Do you believe them as well? And what about all those that believe the earth is flat, do you also believe them?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 4, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Talking of Google, how did you get on googling Fiscal deficit in Scotland?

Never heard from you, wonder why?
		
Click to expand...

You did but chose to ignore it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Google their comments. m'lud
		
Click to expand...

Again none of it is proof of your accusation 

It could have been the media making things up , it could be people denying it all happened to cover up , it could be people back peddling to save face

You or anyone doesn't know if it's false or not unless you can provide proof that the statement is false and that it was released by the UK Governement as false propaganda against Scotland - 

Break your year long habit and actually provide some factual proof behind one of your nonsensical statements


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 4, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			There is no proof that she didn't say it. There are simply reports from various people all who would be better off if the story went away.

Your "proof" that she didn't say it is that 4 people have said so. There are thousands of people in America that say the moon landings didn't happen. Do you believe them as well? And what about all those that believe the earth is flat, do you also believe them?
		
Click to expand...

OK over to you.........proof of her saying it please................ one minor Whitehall officer trying ingratiate himself with his boss's thinking.
Unless you know better.

Why are the Foreign Office saying no memo exists?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You did but chose to ignore it.
		
Click to expand...

Care to show me your answer. Last I heard you simply said you did not read the FT.

Unlike yourself I do not ignore questions or answers that don't suit. You, sadly, will never be able to say the same as has been shown on many occasions.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 4, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Care to show me your answer. Last I heard you simply said you did not read the FT.

Unlike yourself I do not ignore questions or answers that don't suit. You, sadly, will never be able to say the same as has been shown on many occasions.
		
Click to expand...

.......and you Sir never provided a link.


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## c1973 (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			.......and you Sir never provided a link.
		
Click to expand...

Do what you usually tell others (when you actually do respond) then, Google it.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 4, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Do what you usually tell others (when you actually do respond) then, Google it.
		
Click to expand...

I have already suggested that and referred him to the appropriate issue of the FT but all to no avail.

Or perhaps he did and the information provided did not fit with his argument.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			OK over to you.........proof of her saying it please................ one minor Whitehall officer trying ingratiate himself with his boss's thinking.
Unless you know better.

Why are the Foreign Office saying no memo exists?
		
Click to expand...

Unlike you I haven't made any statements that she did/didn't say it. I responded to you saying that the document was false and asked you to provide proof. As usual along with most of the other nonsense you spout you are unable to back it up.


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## Old Skier (Apr 4, 2015)

This is a woman that belongs to a party that agreed to accept the Scottish people's No vote for Independance only to back track in less than a week and suggest that they will have another go ignoring the democratic wishes of the Scots.
Why should anyone ever believe her or her party ever again.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 4, 2015)

No link then.


OK lets all calm down a bit and base this on Phil's courtroom.

We have either The Foreign Office, Nicola Sturgeon, The UK French Ambassador and the Edinburgh French Consul all telling the truth.

or

Some minor Whitehall officer telling the truth.

Who would you bet your house on?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No link then.


OK lets all calm down a bit and base this on Phil's courtroom.

We have either The Foreign Office, Nicola Sturgeon, The UK French Ambassador and the Edinburgh French Consul all telling the truth.

or

Some minor Whitehall officer telling the truth.

Who would you bet your house on?
		
Click to expand...

We have a document so far and that's it

You have to prove the document and what is being said is false 

You are the one making the accusations so provide the proof that you know it's false


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## Old Skier (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No link then.


OK lets all calm down a bit and base this on Phil's courtroom.

We have either The Foreign Office, Nicola Sturgeon, The UK French Ambassador and the Edinburgh French Consul all telling the truth.

or

Some minor Whitehall officer telling the truth.

Who would you bet your house on?
		
Click to expand...

The minor Whitehall officer.

He has nothing to gain or any axe to grind. We know the French hate us nearly as much as some Scots .:ears:


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We have a document so far and that's it

You have to prove the document and what is being said is false 

You are the one making the accusations so provide the proof that you know it's false
		
Click to expand...

Or, everyone could accept that this will never be proven either way, and move on? DfT, you have no way of knowing if she was lying, Phil, DfT will never be able to prove it either way. This one will just go round and round!


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## c1973 (Apr 4, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			This is a woman that belongs to a party that agreed to accept the Scottish people's No vote for Independance only to back track in less than a week and suggest that they will have another go ignoring the democratic wishes of the Scots.
Why should anyone ever believe her or her party ever again.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly. 

I wouldn't trust her with the schools hamster!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No link then
		
Click to expand...

No answer then.

Yet again.

Financial Times 11 March 2015. Financial Times 11 March 2015. Financial Times 11 March 2015. Clear enough?

Absolutely pointless entering into any further discussion with you as you constantly choose to ignore uncomfortable facts and display the blind faith of the zealot.

 As to your question as to who we should believe I would suggest the answer is anyone who is unlikely to be discomforted by this story being true and anyone who might have something to gain if it were.

In other words none of the above.


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## c1973 (Apr 4, 2015)

Where's Doon frae the Moon getting this 'minor Whitehall officer' from?

Was the link actually read?

'The memorandum which was written by a *senior *British civil servant......'


I reckon this part might, just possibly, explain a lot.

'It is a common diplomatic courtesy if an ambassador to the UK visits one of the three devolved administrations in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland for the British Government to be given an official readout of the conversation although the SNP leader, who has only been in position since the autumn, may have been unaware of this formality.'


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 4, 2015)

I'm not really sure exactly what you lot are arguing about, but of course the SNP want a tory government at Westminster. They've been using that for the last five years to sew discord and no doubt feel it's their best chance of another referendum.


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## Old Skier (Apr 4, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			I'm not really sure exactly what you lot are arguing about,
		
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Its the Golf Monthly forum, nor are we.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 4, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			Its the Golf Monthly forum, nor are we.
		
Click to expand...

 Made me laugh!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



 Made me laugh!
		
Click to expand...

I guess people have just had enough of Doon making statements without actually providing proof to back them up 

Either he is doing on purpose to wind people up - wouldnt surprise me 

Or he feels he doesn't need to provide the proof ?

Either way some of the statements are ridiculous and try and suggest under hand tricks from UK government and people towards Scotland which does nothing but get people's backs up


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I guess people have just had enough of Doon making statements without actually providing proof to back them up 

Either he is doing on purpose to wind people up - wouldnt surprise me 

Or he feels he doesn't need to provide the proof ?

Either way some of the statements are ridiculous and try and suggest under hand tricks from UK government and people towards Scotland which does nothing but get people's backs up
		
Click to expand...

I've actually caught up a bit on the story and it does appear there are some shenanigans going on.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			I've actually caught up a bit on the story and it does appear there are some shenanigans going on.
		
Click to expand...

Oh no doubt there are games going on - expect to see many more as the campaign goes deeper

I'm sure if it's al false that Sturgeon is currently going through lawyers looking to sue the paper


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			making statements without actually providing proof to back them up 

Either he is doing on purpose to wind people up - wouldnt surprise me 

Or he feels he doesn't need to provide the proof ?
		
Click to expand...

Pot, Kettle and Black spring to mind


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## Hacker Khan (Apr 4, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Pot, Kettle and Black spring to mind 

Click to expand...


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 4, 2015)

I too want a Tory govt with a large SNP bloc. Anything to expedite our leaving the uk is ok by me.I also despise all of Scottish labour, Jim murphy in particular, so seeing him in a bad place would make me happy.

I think sturgeon said it personally


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			I too want a Tory govt with a large SNP bloc. *Anything to expedite our leaving the uk is ok by me.*I also despise all of Scottish labour, Jim murphy in particular, so seeing him in a bad place would make me happy.

I think sturgeon said it personally
		
Click to expand...

Didn't your country just vote to stay in the UK ? 

You are not leaving the UK - SNP having more MP's won't change that fact


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## Old Skier (Apr 4, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			I too want a Tory govt with a large SNP bloc. Anything to expedite our leaving the uk is ok by me.
		
Click to expand...

You missed the boat on that one or are you one of those that insists that everyone keeps voting until you get what you want. Not a fan of the democratic principles then.


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 4, 2015)

Keep the Tories in #10 and I'd guess there will be another vote within 10 years.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Keep the Tories in #10 and I'd guess there will be another vote within 10 years.
		
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There is no need for another vote - your country gave their decision


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			There is no need for another vote - your country gave their decision
		
Click to expand...

In 79 too.. We should already be independent


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			In 79 too.. We should already be independent
		
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Should ? Why should you be ? 

Scotland don't want to be independent - maybe it's time to realise that


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## c1973 (Apr 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



*Didn't your country just vote to stay in the UK ? 
*
You are not leaving the UK - SNP having more MP's won't change that fact
		
Click to expand...

Yep. A 'once in a lifetime chance' I believe the snp leader said it was. 

But I think all that's in the past now. Time to move on............together.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Should ? Why should you be ? 

Scotland don't want to be independent - maybe it's time to realise that
		
Click to expand...

Some do. Maybe next time enough will


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Should ? Why should you be ? 

Scotland don't want to be independent - maybe it's time to realise that
		
Click to expand...

You are an idiot, time you realised that. Educate yourself on the 79 referendum


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 4, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			You are an idiot, time you realised that. Educate yourself on the 79 referendum
		
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Please don't throw insults at people on here.

What happened in 1979 is irrelevant 

Didn't get enough of a turnout to make any vote valid - deal with it 

Last year your country voted to stay part of the UK - deal with it 

Time for you and any others to wake up to the fact that your country voted in massive numbers and the result was NO to leaving the UK - wake up and deal with the FACT that Scotland is and for the long forseable future part of the UK

Your country had your vote and they gave their answer - deal with it


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 4, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			I too want a Tory govt with a large SNP bloc. *Anything to expedite our leaving the uk is ok by me*.I also despise all of Scottish labour, Jim murphy in particular, so seeing him in a bad place would make me happy.

I think sturgeon said it personally
		
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I thought that you wanted to remain part of the UK so that those of us south of the border could keep sending you money to pay for your free prescriptions and Uni education.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 4, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			You are an idiot, time you realised that. Educate yourself on the 79 referendum
		
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If he was an Idiot he wouldn't be able to realise it or Educate himself.    Whats your excuse?  Oh yes! you're so good at winding us all up 

You really are so Money Supermarket!


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## c1973 (Apr 4, 2015)

LP, I wouldn't bite mate. 

What your seeing is a throwback to 80s and 90s snp politics as I recall, snidey comments and confrontational, designed to get a reaction.


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## Hobbit (Apr 4, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Please don't throw insults at people on here.

What happened in 1979 is irrelevant 

Didn't get enough of a turnout to make any vote valid - deal with it 

Last year your country voted to stay part of the UK - deal with it 

Time for you and any others to wake up to the fact that your country voted in massive numbers and the result was NO to leaving the UK - wake up and deal with the FACT that Scotland is and for the long forseable future part of the UK

Your country had your vote and they gave their answer - deal with it
		
Click to expand...

You've won this one Phil. Anyone who blatantly resorts to insults has already lost the argument. He's just trying to push your buttons - best just laugh at him, and dodge the flying teddy.

Sour grapes or what!


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## the smiling assassin (Apr 4, 2015)

Its time the SNP changed their party name and accept there ought not be another referendum for at least another 35 years and focus fully on with doing what they're meant to do. Too much of a stigma attached to the current name to appeal to those who see them as a single policy party, rightly or wrongly. If they changed it then they'd really be a serious force, labour et al would be properly screwed up here.


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## c1973 (Apr 4, 2015)

the smiling assassin said:



			Its time the SNP changed their party name and accept there ought not be another referendum for at least another 35 years. Too much of a stigma attached to the current name to appeal to those who see them as a single policy party, rightly or wrongly. If they changed it then they'd really be a serious force, labour et al would be properly screwed up here.
		
Click to expand...

It certainly seems like they are stealing the left of centre vote up here, which is very surprising for a party that has overseen more NHS contracts going to the private sector and (I believe my figures are correct here but can't be arsed double checking) a fourfold increase in NHS private outpatient numbers.  

Manage the targets instead of targeting the management seems to be their thinking.

Again, I stress that figure is from memory and may be slightly out. 

Also managing to oversee the exponential growth of food banks in a 'fairer society' (their words btw) in their SEVEN year tenure. 


And let's not mention the duplicitous manner in which they calculate their fiscal projections.


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## CMAC (Apr 4, 2015)

c1973 said:



			It certainly seems like they are stealing the left of centre vote up here, which is very surprising for a party that has overseen more NHS contracts going to the private sector and (I believe my figures are correct here but can't be arsed double checking) a fourfold increase in NHS private outpatient numbers.  

Manage the targets instead of targeting the management seems to be their thinking.

Again, I stress that figure is from memory and may be slightly out. 

*Also managing to oversee the exponential growth of food banks in a 'fairer society' (their words btw) in their SEVEN year tenure. *


And let's not mention the duplicitous manner in which they calculate their fiscal projections.
		
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No, that's all the fault of Westminster, Salmond and Sturgeon told the country that...repeatedly. If only the SNP were Governing Scotland for the last 7 years they could have done something about food banks......oh wait!


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## Foxholer (Apr 4, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			The Gay Marriage issue is a bit of a red herring.   I suggested a whole raft of issues that had affected many Tory's and also Labour supporters.   I suggested that due to these issues many had become disenfranchised and were now supporting UKIP, suggesting that this was a major influence on their increased ratings in the polls.
		
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Indeed. However, I believe it was you who brought it up! So, having admitted it as a 'red herring' can I suggest you 'officially retract' it? And where did/do you get the evidence that 'many have become disenfranchised' and are now supporting UKIP. I haven't seen any such evidence, but am prepared to be convinced by independent evidence - such as polls. Without such evidence, your statements would simply be political piffle, something I'd not associate with your normal (if, imo, rather selective) fact based approach.



Old Skier said:



			As the SNP have no interest in the democratic principles I'm not sure why she was invited to take part in the debate.
		
Click to expand...

H'mm! I don't believe that's the case at all! If you are referring to continuing to push their particular point of view (an independent Scotland), I believe that applies to every political party that 'suffers a set-back'. If it's the ability to have influence that outweighs their actual voter mandate, a) that's not their problem; b) they are taking advantage of that rather well and c) they are actually keen to change the system that allows them to have such an influence!

So don't abuse them for doing exactly they have consistently advocated!


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No link then.


OK lets all calm down a bit and base this on Phil's courtroom.

We have either The Foreign Office, Nicola Sturgeon, The UK French Ambassador and the Edinburgh French Consul all telling the truth.

or

Some minor Whitehall officer telling the truth.

Who would you bet your house on?
		
Click to expand...

Straight question for you DfT.........

*IF* it turns out that these comments are proved to have been said and Nicola Sturgeon has lied do you think she should have to resign?


----------



## SocketRocket (Apr 4, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Indeed. However, I believe it was you who brought it up! So, having admitted it as a 'red herring' can I suggest you 'officially retract' it? And where did/do you get the evidence that 'many have become disenfranchised' and are now supporting UKIP. I haven't seen any such evidence, but am prepared to be convinced by independent evidence - such as polls. Without such evidence, your statements would simply be political piffle, something I'd not associate with your normal (if, imo, rather selective) fact based approach.



H'mm! I don't believe that's the case at all! If you are referring to continuing to push their particular point of view (an independent Scotland), I believe that applies to every political party that 'suffers a set-back'. If it's the ability to have influence that outweighs their actual voter mandate, a) that's not their problem; b) they are taking advantage of that rather well and c) they are actually keen to change the system that allows them to have such an influence!

So don't abuse them for doing exactly they have consistently advocated!
		
Click to expand...

Do you have an alternative reason why support for UKIP has increased in the polls by such a large percentage since 2010?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Apr 4, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			Straight question for you DfT.........

*IF* it turns out that these comments are proved to have been said and Nicola Sturgeon has lied do you think she should have to resign?
		
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The three people involved have already stated they are untrue.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The three people involved have already stated they are untrue.
		
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And how does that affect the question I asked you? I don't see where my question disputed that. I asked a direct question that requires a simple yes or no answer. You can then go on to give a reason for your answer if you so desire.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 4, 2015)

If you want to be obtuse then let me rephrase for you. Here is a make believe situation for you to consider......

On Tuesday next week the



Doon frae Troon said:



			minor Whitehall officer
		
Click to expand...

or



c1973 said:



*senior *British civil servant
		
Click to expand...

depending on who you believe is making the allegation releases an audio recording of the meeting (which is verified as genuine) and it turns out that Nicola Sturgeon did say what she has been reported of saying and has lied about it. *IF* that happened do you think she should have to resign?


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## c1973 (Apr 4, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The three people involved have already stated they are untrue.
		
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As I recall though, one of them was up to her eyes in it when Holyrood MSPs (and the Scottish public) were led to believe that the snp had taken legal advice; resulting in assurances that EU membership would be unaffected post yes vote in the referendum. 

This, as anyone who follows politics in Scotland knows, was a blatant, outright lie. The only 'legal' goings on were the snp spending public money on lawyers in an attempt to prevent that truth from seeing the light of day!

So, I'd contend that her word is hardly her bond.  <<<< that's being polite btw.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 5, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			If you want to be obtuse then let me rephrase for you. Here is a make believe situation for you to consider......

On Tuesday next week the



or



depending on who you believe is making the allegation releases an audio recording of the meeting (which is verified as genuine) and it turns out that Nicola Sturgeon did say what she has been reported of saying and has lied about it. *IF* that happened do you think she should have to resign?
		
Click to expand...

So you are now saying that it was a Senior Civil Servant who leaked the memo.
All those in denial and desperately focused on Sturgeon seem to be to be forgetting two main points.


a} A memo [or altered memo] from the 'Senior' civil servant was leaked to a Tory supporting newspaper in the middle of a general election.......by whom?
That act alone undermines the UK's basic rights of freedom and is more akin to a banana republic
Are you happy with such an act of what is basically treachery

b] The Foreign Office claim no such memo exists.

I would be obliged with answers this time please.


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## Imurg (Apr 5, 2015)

So I'm currently at the In-Laws on the Wirral.
Can someone explain why we were subjected to a partly political broadcast by the SNP the other night.?
Do they have candidates standing in England.?
If not why are they on National TV.? Same would go for the Welsh and Irish parties.
Shouldn't it have just been shown on Scottish TV..?


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## c1973 (Apr 5, 2015)

Imurg said:



			So I'm currently at the In-Laws on the Wirral.
Can someone explain why we were subjected to a partly political broadcast by the SNP the other night.?
Do they have candidates standing in England.?
If not why are they on National TV.? Same would go for the Welsh and Irish parties.
*Shouldn't it have just been shown on Scottish TV..?*

Click to expand...



I'd rather it wasn't. 

As far as I can make out their latest tactic is to love bomb (sure I've came across that phrase before) the UK (England in particular) with the message that they want to work together (who with might be debatable now, given the alleged admiration for Mr Cameron) and will be a force for good in the UK. 

Not sure if I'm confused, angry or just gobsmacked tbh.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So you are now saying that it was a Senior Civil Servant who leaked the memo.
All those in denial and desperately focused on Sturgeon seem to be to be forgetting two main points.


a} A memo [or altered memo] from the 'Senior' civil servant was leaked to a Tory supporting newspaper in the middle of a general election.......by whom?
That act alone undermines the UK's basic rights of freedom and is more akin to a banana republic
Are you happy with such an act of what is basically treachery

b] The Foreign Office claim no such memo exists.

I would be obliged with answers this time please.
		
Click to expand...

What's your question ?


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you have an alternative reason why support for UKIP has increased in the polls by such a large percentage since 2010?
		
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As the poll didn't ask why, then I couldn't do anything but speculate. To state opinion as fact - as you have done - is either simply invalid, an act of faith or plain B/S. It would be fine if you added 'I believe' or even 'I'm certain', but that's not what you did!

It's not for me to prove otherwise, it's for you - stating an opinion as fact - to prove your assertion, or admit it's only your opinion or is b/s!


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## c1973 (Apr 5, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So you are now saying that it was a Senior Civil Servant who leaked the memo.
All those in denial and desperately focused on Sturgeon seem to be to be forgetting two main points.


a} A memo [or altered memo] from the 'Senior' civil servant was leaked to a Tory supporting newspaper in the middle of a general election.......by whom?
That act alone undermines the UK's basic rights of freedom and is more akin to a banana republic
Are you happy with such an act of what is basically treachery

b] The Foreign Office claim no such memo exists.

I would be obliged with answers this time please.
		
Click to expand...

No, I am not now saying (neither is anyone else) it was a senior civil servant,that particular quote was from the linked article and was known to those who actually read it. 

Do keep up.

I believe you've had answers from more than one poster, they're all there in previous posts. You only have to look. 

Now, if you could work your way through the many questions and points raised for your attention, adress them and provide simple, clear, concise answers; quite a few would (I'm sure) also be obliged. :thup:


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 5, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			As the poll didn't ask why, then I couldn't do anything but speculate. To state opinion as fact - as you have done - is either simply invalid, an act of faith or plain B/S. It would be fine if you added 'I believe' or even 'I'm certain', but that's not what you did!

It's not for me to prove otherwise, it's for you - stating an opinion as fact - to prove your assertion, or admit it's only your opinion or is b/s! 

Click to expand...

Well the FACT that ukip won 2 by- elections in the last few months and the fact that in local elections there are now record numbers of ukip councillors would indicate that ukip have increased their popularity 
You can't deny that surely


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Well the FACT that ukip won 2 by- elections in the last few months and the fact that in local elections there are now record numbers of ukip councillors would indicate that ukip have increased their popularity 
You can't deny that surely
		
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Absolutely not!

It's the presentation of an opinion of why that has happened as fact, with no evidence, that's objectionable!

Did you actually read - and absorb - what I posted?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Well the FACT that ukip won 2 by- elections in the last few months and the fact that in local elections there are now record numbers of ukip councillors would indicate that ukip have increased their popularity 
You can't deny that surely
		
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The By Elections could easily be a false dawn with both winners being the MP of that area for a good period before they deflected 

When they win a seat from scratch then it's possibly a bit more of a sign towards a shift of momentum


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The By Elections could easily be a false dawn with both winners being the MP of that area for a good period before they deflected 

When they win a seat from scratch then it's possibly a bit more of a sign towards a shift of momentum
		
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Indeed! I forgot to mention that in my earlier post.


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## PhilTheFragger (Apr 5, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Absolutely not!

It's the presentation of an opinion of why that has happened as fact, with no evidence, that's objectionable!

Did you actually read - and absorb - what I posted? 

Click to expand...

You really want me to filter through 293 posts to find out what I already know, that most of this thread is based on peoples opinions,(rightly or wrongly) facts are few, Spin is in overdrive and smears abound. Most people have already decided who to vote for and in reality the leaders debates wont change many voters minds. and if we are lucky only 60% of people will bother to vote anyway.

Where has the "bring a Bottle" Party gone 

Sorry, still a month to go and im cheesed of with the election already


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## c1973 (Apr 5, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			You really want me to filter through 293 posts to find out what I already know, that most of this thread is based on peoples opinions,(rightly or wrongly) facts are few, Spin is in overdrive and smears abound. Most people have already decided who to vote for and in reality the leaders debates wont change many voters minds. and if we are lucky only 60% of people will bother to vote anyway.
*
Where has the "bring a Bottle" Party gone *

Sorry, still a month to go and im cheesed of with the election already
		
Click to expand...


I can't believe anyone would vote for them, surely the 'spin the bottle' party is the way to go?


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## Imurg (Apr 5, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Sorry, still a month to go and im cheesed of with the election already
		
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And this is why I believe there will be a shockingly low turnout..


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## CMAC (Apr 5, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So you are now saying that it was a Senior Civil Servant who leaked the memo.
All those in denial and desperately focused on Sturgeon seem to be to be forgetting two main points.


a} A memo [or altered memo] from the 'Senior' civil servant was leaked to a Tory supporting newspaper in the middle of a general election.......by whom?
That act alone undermines the UK's basic rights of freedom and is more akin to a banana republic
*Are you happy with such an act of what is basically treachery*

b] The Foreign Office claim no such memo exists.

I would be obliged with answers this time please.
		
Click to expand...

:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2015)

PhilTheFragger said:



			You really want me to filter through 293 posts ..
		
Click to expand...

No! Just the one you quoted!!!!!!


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 5, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			So you are now saying that it was a Senior Civil Servant who leaked the memo.
All those in denial and desperately focused on Sturgeon seem to be to be forgetting two main points.


a} A memo [or altered memo] from the 'Senior' civil servant was leaked to a Tory supporting newspaper in the middle of a general election.......by whom?
That act alone undermines the UK's basic rights of freedom and is more akin to a banana republic
Are you happy with such an act of what is basically treachery

b] The Foreign Office claim no such memo exists.

I would be obliged with answers this time please.
		
Click to expand...

Well as the only question you are asking is who leaked the memo then the answer is simple. I have no idea.

I hope you feel obliged now. How about answering the question about Sturgeon that I've asked you twice? A simple yes/NO answer would do.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 5, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			As the poll didn't ask why, then I couldn't do anything but speculate. To state opinion as fact - as you have done - is either simply invalid, an act of faith or plain B/S. It would be fine if you added 'I believe' or even 'I'm certain', but that's not what you did!

It's not for me to prove otherwise, it's for you - stating an opinion as fact - to prove your assertion, or admit it's only your opinion or is b/s! 

Click to expand...

I'm getting a little sick and tired with your continued cutting comments at just about every post I make, actually it's starting to seem a bit weird now.  I have stated as a fact that UKIPs poll ratings have increased from around 3% in 2010 to around 15% at present.   I have given the reasons I believe that has happened, you can take that as my opinion, B/S or what ever, I really don't care what you believe.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 5, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			The By Elections could easily be a false dawn with both winners being the MP of that area for a good period before they deflected 

When they win a seat from scratch then it's possibly a bit more of a sign towards a shift of momentum
		
Click to expand...

Like they did when they won the Euro Elections?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Like they did when they won the Euro Elections?
		
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How many MP's did they gain for that which will enable them to effect UK politics


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## MegaSteve (Apr 5, 2015)

Believe UKIP will do well in the areas where the main party's have gone ostrich on the 'concerns' of 'local' people... Politicians should make more of an effort to listen to the electorate... NOT just at election time and even then they forget what they heard in too short a time,,,


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			I'm getting a little sick and tired with your continued cutting comments at just about every post I make, actually it's starting to seem a bit weird now.  I have stated as a fact that UKIPs poll ratings have increased from around 3% in 2010 to around 15% at present.   I have given the reasons I believe that has happened, you can take that as my opinion, B/S or what ever, I really don't care what you believe.    

Click to expand...

So you are getting 'sick and tired' of being asked to provide evidence for stating as fact, you opinion! I suggest you provide some evidence to back up you 'facts' then! Surely that's not too much to ask?

I'm not disputing their rise in the poll ratings. I've even posted my own opinion as to why that is!

No! You stated as fact your opinion as to why their poll ratings have improved! It's only now that you have used the 'I believe' phrase!

As I posted, I have no issue when you use that phrase, but when you simply make a statement as fact, there needs to be evidence - which you haven't produced - or anyone should be entitled to challenge it, by either asking for evidence or calling it B/S!

In future, try applying the 'is evidence needed' test!


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## SocketRocket (Apr 5, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			So you are getting 'sick and tired' of being asked to provide evidence for stating as fact, you opinion! I suggest you provide some evidence to back up you 'facts' then! Surely that's not too much to ask?

I'm not disputing their rise in the poll ratings. I've even posted my own opinion as to why that is!

No! You stated as fact your opinion as to why their poll ratings have improved! It's only now that you have used the 'I believe' phrase!

As I posted, I have no issue when you use that phrase, but when you simply make a statement as fact, there needs to be evidence - which you haven't produced - or anyone should be entitled to challenge it, by either asking for evidence or calling it B/S!

In future, try applying the 'is evidence needed' test!
		
Click to expand...

I base my opinions on what I perceive to be facts.   You may disagree with what I perceive to be a fact but that's your problem not mine and to be frank. I don't give a damn!


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			I base my opinions on what I perceive to be facts.   You may disagree with what I perceive to be a fact but that's your problem not mine and to be frank. I don't give a damn!
		
Click to expand...

Just to dive in here, you can't perceive something to be fact. It either is, or is not a fact.  If you perceive something, then it becomes an opinion, and you can't try and make out it's fact.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			I base my opinions on what I perceive to be facts.   You may disagree with what I perceive to be a fact but that's your problem not mine and to be frank. I don't give a damn!
		
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To perceive something then it's an opinion not fact 

A fact is the rise in support on the polls for support for UKIP

Reasons for that rise is based on opinion


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## MegaSteve (Apr 5, 2015)

Vast majority will cast their vote based on opinion rather than fact...


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 5, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			Vast majority will cast their vote based on opinion rather than fact...
		
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Noone is disagreeing with that. Still doesn't go around saying XXXXX is fact, if it's an opinion.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 5, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			To perceive something then it's an opinion not fact 

A fact is the rise in support on the polls for support for UKIP

Reasons for that rise is based on opinion
		
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The reasons for those increased polls are factual things not opinions.  Eg: peoples concerns with immigration levels and their discontent with the EU.   These are real concerns and factual.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			The reasons for those increased polls are factual things not opinions.  Eg: peoples concerns with immigration levels and their discontent with the EU.   These are real concerns and factual.
		
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It's like you're completely missing this.

You believe, they are factual things. Unless the poll also asked why the UKIP support increased, then you *cannot* state as fact why it is!

EDIT: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/factual may help


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			The reasons for those increased polls are factual things not opinions.  Eg: peoples concerns with immigration levels and their discontent with the EU.   These are real concerns and factual.
		
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Is there somewhere that shows in a poll the reason for the increase or somewhere that shows everyones reason for moving support to UKIP ? or is it your opinion that they are the reason ?


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## Hobbit (Apr 5, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			It's like you're completely missing this.

You believe, they are factual things. Unless the poll also asked why the UKIP support increased, then you *cannot* state as fact why it is!

EDIT: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/factual may help
		
Click to expand...




Liverpoolphil said:



			Is there somewhere that shows in a poll the reason for the increase or somewhere that shows everyones reason for moving support to UKIP ? or is it your opinion that they are the reason ?
		
Click to expand...

Playing Devil's Advocate, if UKIP's main thrusts are immigration and the EU, and their ratings have gone up....... I'm inclined to say Socket isn't too far from the truth. Let's face it, you could hardly say their ratings have gone up because they want to have an open door policy and an increase in benefits...


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 5, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Playing Devil's Advocate, if UKIP's main thrusts are immigration and the EU, and their ratings have gone up....... I'm inclined to say Socket isn't too far from the truth. Let's face it, you could hardly say their ratings have gone up because they want to have an open door policy and an increase in benefits...
		
Click to expand...

Would have to agree. Socket's questioners have previously, I believe, accused UKIP (with some justification) of having no policies other than those on immigration and the EU.

That being so, it is somewhat disingenuous to suggest that these might not be the reasons for their increased standing in the polls.

Sorry Phil but you can't have it both ways.


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## jp5 (Apr 5, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is there somewhere that shows in a poll the reason for the increase or somewhere that shows everyones reason for moving support to UKIP ? or is it your opinion that they are the reason ?
		
Click to expand...

With 90% of UKIP followers claiming that immigration has had a negative effect on the country, that may suggest something about the reasons they have increased in popularity.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Would have to agree. Socket's questioners have previously, I believe, accused UKIP (with some justification) of having no policies other than those on immigration and the EU.

That being so, it is somewhat disingenuous to suggest that these might not be the reasons for their increased standing in the polls.

Sorry Phil but you can't have it both ways.
		
Click to expand...

I wasn't suggesting they might not be the reasons - they may well be but factually we don't know it's all opinions 

The point was that things were being posted as if they were facts when it's clear they are opinions

The swell of support for UKIP I have no doubt is based around immigration but that's just an opinion as opposed to it being factual


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## Hobbit (Apr 5, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I wasn't suggesting they might not be the reasons - they may well be but factually we don't know it's all opinions 

The point was that things were being posted as if they were facts when it's clear they are opinions

The swell of support for UKIP I have no doubt is based around immigration but that's just an opinion as opposed to it being factual
		
Click to expand...

Hair splitting Phil, and you know it. Why else would a party with basically one or two policies show a gain in the polls.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 5, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			I wasn't suggesting they might not be the reasons - they may well be but factually we don't know it's all opinions 

The point was that things were being posted as if they were facts when it's clear they are opinions

The swell of support for UKIP I have no doubt is based around immigration but that's just an opinion as opposed to it being factual
		
Click to expand...

But then we are reducing this to a navel-gazing exercise of arguing over the semantic difference between "a fact" and something that we can all be pretty certain of.

Hands up all those who don't believe the growth in support for UKIP is not as a result of their policies on immigration and the EU.

Don't expect there are too many hands in the air right now.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 5, 2015)

Think if you are voting UKIP you are not going to be too fussed as to whether they have a full manifesto or not... All you'll want is for them to be a thorn in the side of government which is, in reality, all they'll be hoping for themselves...


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 5, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			Well as the only question you are asking is who leaked the memo then the answer is simple. I have no idea.

I hope you feel obliged now. How about answering the question about Sturgeon that I've asked you twice? A simple yes/NO answer would do.
		
Click to expand...

It is a stupid question, that is why I did not waste my time replying.

Noe leesten veeery caurfully...............................The only people who can verify what she said were the French Ambassador and the Edinburgh French Council. Both confirmed that she did not state a preference for Cameron as PM.....simple enough for you.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 5, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is a stupid question, that is why I did not waste my time replying.

Noe leesten veeery caurfully...............................The only people who can verify what she said were the French Ambassador and the Edinburgh French Council. Both confirmed that she did not state a preference for Cameron as PM.....simple enough for you.
		
Click to expand...

Oh Doon. For someone who normally expresses such distrust in what politicians say, you're being ever so nieve/obtuse. Are you possibly suggesting that at no point in history ever have politicians/people in the public eye categorically denied something, that was subsequently proven?

You can't just say "it's a stupid question, ergo no answer!". It's a hypothetical situation.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is a stupid question, that is why I did not waste my time replying.

Noe leesten veeery caurfully...............................The only people who can verify what she said were the French Ambassador and the Edinburgh French Council. Both confirmed that she did not state a preference for Cameron as PM.....simple enough for you.
		
Click to expand...

How do you know they are not lying ?

Was it just them three in the meeting - that hasn't been confirmed ? 

How do you know they aren't back tracking right now after being found out ?

They wouldn't be the first politicians to be caught lying 

If it's all false then I expect Sturgeon will be suing the paper then ?


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## c1973 (Apr 5, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Oh Doon. For someone who normally expresses such distrust in what politicians say, *you're being ever so nieve/obtuse*. Are you possibly suggesting that at no point in history ever have politicians/people in the public eye categorically denied something, that was subsequently proven?

You can't just say "it's a stupid question, ergo no answer!". It's a hypothetical situation.
		
Click to expand...

As well as ignoring her/snp previous for wilfully misleading parliament/public whilst in office.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 5, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			Oh Doon. For someone who normally expresses such distrust in what politicians say, you're being ever so nieve/obtuse. Are you possibly suggesting that at no point in history ever have politicians/people in the public eye categorically denied something, that was subsequently proven?

You can't just say "it's a stupid question, ergo no answer!". It's a hypothetical situation.
		
Click to expand...

You seem to be air brushing the diplomats.

I see no one answered my second question about the Foreign Office saying no such memo exists.

Never mind the whole pitiful exercise seems to have galvanised additional support for the SNP and sadly brings us closer to breaking up the UK.
I see the The Torygraph have managed to insult all Scots today........even the 55%, Tory and Labour voters.
I suppose we all look the same to them.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You seem to be air brushing the diplomats.

I see no one answered my second question about the Foreign Office saying no such memo exists.

Never mind the whole pitiful exercise seems to have galvanised additional support for the SNP and sadly brings us closer to breaking up the UK.
I see the The Torygraph have managed to insult all Scots today........even the 55%, Tory and Labour voters.
I suppose we all look the same to them.
		
Click to expand...

Is it not possible that the foriegn office are a bit embaressed about the document coming out and denying it existed to cover themselves - certainly wouldn't be the first 

Why has it brought us closer to breaking up the UK ? Are you another in denial that last years vote ever took place ?

How did the Telegraph insult all scots today ?


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			brings us closer to breaking up the UK..
		
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Are you drinking your exports again.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 5, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You seem to be air brushing the diplomats.

I see no one answered my second question about the Foreign Office saying no such memo exists.

Never mind the whole pitiful exercise seems to have galvanised additional support for the SNP and sadly brings us closer to breaking up the UK.
I see the The Torygraph have managed to insult all Scots today........even the 55%, Tory and Labour voters.
I suppose we all look the same to them.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, should I point out that many diplomats have lied before, as well? No airbrushing involved.

Again, the Foreign Office can't be seen to leak documents, of course they will deny it exists. 

I really wish you would stop talking about the "breaking up of the UK".  Please accept that your country voted to stay. Why don't you try pulling in the same direction, instead of opposite. I can't wait until the older population accept that the youth were right, and stop trying to ruin a country that they won't be around to see.


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Is it not possible that the foriegn office are a bit embaressed about the document coming out and denying it existed to cover themselves - certainly wouldn't be the first 

Why has it brought us closer to breaking up the UK ? Are you another in denial that last years vote ever took place ?

How did the Telegraph insult all scots today ?
		
Click to expand...

Time to stop digging. Nobody will ever know the facts.


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			I really wish you would stop talking about the "breaking up of the UK".  Please accept that your country voted to stay. Why don't you try pulling in the same direction, instead of opposite. I can't wait until the older population accept that the youth were right, and stop trying to ruin a country that they won't be around to see.
		
Click to expand...

Unfortunatly it's a nationalists trait. They never are willing to abid by democracy.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			Time to stop digging. Nobody will ever know the facts.
		
Click to expand...

?! Eh ?


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			Time to stop digging. Nobody will ever know the facts.
		
Click to expand...

For someone with the GCHQ emblem as an Avatar, that seems a pretty damning statement! 

Whether the incident deserves worth all the 'noise' it has generated is a different question.


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			For someone with the GCHQ emblem as an Avatar, that seems a pretty damning statement! .
		
Click to expand...

What widow twanky says is of no interest to the Americans


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## SocketRocket (Apr 5, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			What widow twanky says is of no interest to the Americans 

Click to expand...

Bit of a Wishy Washy answer


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## Foxholer (Apr 5, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			What widow twanky says is of no interest to the Americans 

Click to expand...

 Are you suggesting GCHQ is only there for the Americans?



SocketRocket said:



			Bit of a Wishy Washy answer 

Click to expand...

Certainly agree with this!


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2015)

Foxholer said:



 Are you suggesting GCHQ is only there for the Americans
		
Click to expand...

That's for them to know and us to surmise


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## CMAC (Apr 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Bit of a Wishy Washy answer 

Click to expand...

Ohhhh no it isn't


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## c1973 (Apr 5, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			You seem to be air brushing the diplomats.
*
I see no one answered my second question about the Foreign Office saying no such memo exists.
*
Never mind the whole pitiful exercise seems to have galvanised additional support for the SNP and sadly brings us closer to breaking up the UK.
I see the The Torygraph have managed to insult all Scots today........even the 55%, Tory and Labour voters.
I suppose we all look the same to them.
		
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I see the Scottish Secretary Alastair Carmichael has acknowledged the memo DOES EXIST. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32188345


What's your take on that then?


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 5, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is a stupid question, that is why I did not waste my time replying.

Noe leesten veeery caurfully...............................The only people who can verify what she said were the French Ambassador and the Edinburgh French Council. Both confirmed that she did not state a preference for Cameron as PM.....simple enough for you.
		
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Demanding answers from others and then refusing to answer a direct question because you don't like it. Sounds like you should be a politician yourself DfT. Personally I think that your refusal speaks volumes about the type of person you are.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2015)

Looks like right now Farage might not even become an MP as he is behind in the polls for the seat he is standing for 

If he doesn't get the seat then will resign as UKIP leader - would that be a good thing for the party


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## SocketRocket (Apr 5, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Looks like right now Farage might not even become an MP as he is behind in the polls for the seat he is standing for 

If he doesn't get the seat then will resign as UKIP leader - would that be a good thing for the party
		
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Whats your opinion?


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Whats your opinion?
		
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My opinion is that I'm glad that he is looking like he won't get the seat 

And there is also the worry that a new leader could be one of the racists that hasn't been flushed out yet


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## SocketRocket (Apr 5, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			My opinion is that I'm glad that he is looking like he won't get the seat 

And there is also the worry that a new leader could be one of the racists that hasn't been flushed out yet
		
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Do you have proof there are racists that have not been flushed out?   Don't worry too much though, after all it's only your opinion!.  It may not even be true!


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Whats your opinion?
		
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I know I wasn't asked, but I think it's an interesting one. You could argue that his charisma and charm has gained a lot of the support, although the counter argument is that the support for the policies would have gained that support no matter who was the face. Potentially a female leader to replace him might be even more effective (as I believe that women as less supportive of UKIP as a whole? could be worng though)


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## SocketRocket (Apr 5, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			I know I wasn't asked, but I think it's an interesting one. You could argue that his charisma and charm has gained a lot of the support, although the counter argument is that the support for the policies would have gained that support no matter who was the face. Potentially a female leader to replace him might be even more effective (as I believe that women as less supportive of UKIP as a whole? could be worng though)
		
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Good reply!    Although there is currently one point splitting three main contenders for the seat, so still wide open and not a cut and dry situation.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 5, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Good reply!    Although there is currently one point splitting three main contenders for the seat, so still wide open and not a cut and dry situation.
		
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And still so far to go before the election. I genuinely wonder how many people will actually change their mind in the upcoming weeks. Would be surprised if it's a significant %, would be nice if they cut all the nonsense down to a week. Every party gets their manifesto delivered to each house, no live debates, no endless repetition, just base it on the manifestos you read.

Edit.

Imagine this for an idea. All manifestos delivered, no parties mentioned, anonymous except for a code. You then enter the code at the polling booth for who you want to vote for. I appreciate for most people you could tell party to party, but it gets rid of a bit of the nonsense. YOu could then have a number of different codes, so that people wouldn't be identifiable, but at the same time, the parties couldn't just announce which codes are theres. (odds of this happening......0)


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## SocketRocket (Apr 5, 2015)

CheltenhamHacker said:



			And still so far to go before the election. I genuinely wonder how many people will actually change their mind in the upcoming weeks. Would be surprised if it's a significant %, would be nice if they cut all the nonsense down to a week. Every party gets their manifesto delivered to each house, no live debates, no endless repetition, just base it on the manifestos you read.

Edit.

Imagine this for an idea. All manifestos delivered, no parties mentioned, anonymous except for a code. You then enter the code at the polling booth for who you want to vote for. I appreciate for most people you could tell party to party, but it gets rid of a bit of the nonsense. YOu could then have a number of different codes, so that people wouldn't be identifiable, but at the same time, the parties couldn't just announce which codes are theres. (odds of this happening......0)
		
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It's quite complex what makes individuals lean in this or that political direction.   It seems to me as someone who is Ahem!  getting on a bit that people tend to be more left wing when young and then start to drift more to the right with age.   Maybe their life experiences make people less socialist and believe that the state is not what creates business and jobs.  I guess the 'Aging Population' will be a boost to the Conservatives or even UKIP in the future.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you have proof there are racists that have not been flushed out?   Don't worry too much though, after all it's only your opinion!.  It may not even be true!
		
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You asked my opinion and i gave it - i believe there will be other UKIP members that are racist or sexist or homophobic to go with the other UKIP members that have been found to be so and kicked out of the party.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 6, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			Demanding answers from others and then refusing to answer a direct question because you don't like it. Sounds like you should be a politician yourself DfT. Personally I think that your refusal speaks volumes about the type of person you are.
		
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Using deflection to continue to refuse to answer my question........well done.

I think the only folk in the UK who do not recognise that the Telegraph story is a total piece of horsepoo are on here desperately trying to recover any credibility.

Even The father of Deputy Dug [SLAB deputy leader] has told her to make sure she checks her facts.
Carmichael says 'it's one of those things'. Aye that's right, one of those false things that came out of his office.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Using deflection to continue to refuse to answer my question........well done.

I think the only folk in the UK who do not recognise that the Telegraph story is a total piece of horsepoo are on here desperately trying to recover any credibility.

Even The father of Deputy Dug [SLAB deputy leader] has told her to make sure she checks her facts.
Carmichael says 'it's one of those things'. Aye that's right, one of those false things that came out of his office.
		
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What exactly was your question - you keep posting that people refuse to answer your questions but i havent actually seen many from you 

So at first you accused the paper of making it up and its all false - now its confirmed the memo did indeed exist so is it not possible that its actually reporting the facts of what was said ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32188345

You said yesterday that the Telegraph insulted all scots yesterday - can you please tell me how they did that ?


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you have proof there are racists that have not been flushed out?   Don't worry too much though, after all it's only your opinion!.  It may not even be true!
		
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While Farage appears to have done a pretty good job of removing the potential embarrassing faux-pas candidates/members - his 'extremist, nasty or barmy' purge - it seems he wasn't totally successful - a UKIP Councillor (who had defected from the Tories)recently  blamed the floods in Henley on (presumably God's wrath at) the passage of gay marriage law. 

As proving anything that 'hasn't been flushed out' is impossible - at least until it has been flushed out! - applying the metrics for Quality/Faults (N have been discovered (recently), that would imply there are about M still to be discovered) would indicate, to me at least, that there are a couple of embarrassing ones still in there. Whether they are found/reveal themselves before May 7 is the question. I'm pretty certain that there will be journalists ready to pounce on any faux-pas, or even actively tracking them down!


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 6, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			What exactly was your question - you keep posting that people refuse to answer your questions but i havent actually seen many from you 

So at first you accused the paper of making it up and its all false - now its confirmed the memo did indeed exist so is it not possible that its actually reporting the facts of what was said ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32188345

You said yesterday that the Telegraph insulted all scots yesterday - can you please tell me how they did that ?
		
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Phil the memo you mention appears to have been generated from the London Scottish office who were not at the meeting.
The Foreign office say there is no memo of the meeting.

Banner headline that says Scotland was naive etc.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 6, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Using deflection to continue to refuse to answer my question........well done.
		
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Why are the words pot, kettle and black in my head?

What was your question? Restate it and I'll happily answer it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Phil the memo you mention appears to have been generated from the London Scottish office who were not at the meeting.
The Foreign office say there is no memo of the meeting.

Banner headline that says Scotland was naive etc.
		
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Doesnt matter now what the Foriegn Office say - The Scotland Office have said the memo came from them - so all your posturing about Telegraph was false

its a simple question for you - have politicians etc ever been caught lying to cover themselves up ?

And one reporting in the Telegraph says that the SNP and nationlists etc are getting deluded - he prob has it spot on if you witness what some people say on here - especially about independence - they all appear to have forgotten a vote was taken last year 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ore-has-Scotland-been-quite-this-deluded.html


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 6, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Do you have proof there are racists that have not been flushed out?   Don't worry too much though, after all it's only your opinion!.  It may not even be true!
		
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Well, there was another one last week...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...-and-homophobic-facebook-posts_n_6984154.html

Seems a regular occurrence and while I suppose he could be the last, I somehow doubt it. Just an opinion though!


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## MegaSteve (Apr 6, 2015)

Breaking news... Breaking news...

"Tories look after the bosses"....

Don't believe there will be too many surprised at hearing that...


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And one reporting in the Telegraph says that the SNP and nationlists etc are getting deluded - he prob has it spot on if you witness what some people say on here - especially about independence - they all appear to have forgotten a vote was taken last year 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ore-has-Scotland-been-quite-this-deluded.html

Click to expand...

That particular 'reporter' is an embarrassment to the journalistic profession (imo of course!)! He's as close to a right wing press secretary as there can be without having an official title! And an advocate of torture - 'where necessary'!


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## CMAC (Apr 6, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Doesnt matter now what the Foriegn Office say - The Scotland Office have said the memo came from them - so all your posturing about Telegraph was false

its a simple question for you - have politicians etc ever been caught lying to cover themselves up ?

*And one reporting in the Telegraph says that the SNP and nationlists etc are getting deluded *-* he prob has it spot on if you witness what some people say on here - especially about independence - they all appear to have forgotten a vote was taken last year 
*
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ore-has-Scotland-been-quite-this-deluded.html

Click to expand...

its going into meltdown on some social media sites- I dont frequent them but a friend is very active within the SNP and what he 'likes' I see. 

The overriding theme from what SNP supporters I see posting appears to be (and I summarise) _"The UK wanted us tae stay, now you will know fear as we wreck your union..." _ there are many similar posts all with the same theme and all get 'likes'. It's actually quite disturbing reading the vile hatred and passion to destroy what they see as the reason they are not doing so well, no mention at all about the SNP Scottish government they have had for the last 7 years. 

There are a few on here with similar traits.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 6, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why are the words pot, kettle and black in my head?

What was your question? Restate it and I'll happily answer it.
		
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FGS I have just answered it for you.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 6, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			That particular 'reporter' is an embarrassment to the journalistic profession (imo of course!)! He's as close to a right wing press secretary as there can be without having an official title! And an advocate of torture - 'where necessary'!
		
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Whilst I would tend to agree with your overall appraisal of the writer if you read the article there is much in it that I and many others would agree with. Scotland is likely to lean to the left as such a high proportion of the workforce are employed by the State and are, therefore, more likely to support political parties that believe in higher Government spending.

Also there is the continuing delusion of Scotland building an economy largely dependent upon oil.

No, I may not like the messenger but that does not mean I will dismiss his arguments.


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Whilst I would tend to agree with your overall appraisal of the writer if you read the article there is much in it that I and many others would agree with. Scotland is likely to lean to the left as such a high proportion of the workforce are employed by the State and are, therefore, more likely to support political parties that believe in higher Government spending.

Also there is the continuing delusion of Scotland building an economy largely dependent upon oil.

No, I may not like the messenger but that does not mean I will dismiss his arguments.
		
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Yes, there's always a danger of ignoring the 5% of truth from the 95% liar (numbers I simply grabbed out of the ether btw). But there's also enough pure political propoganda in there for me to reject it as an article to take notice of - just as I would reject the views of any writing in the publications of the Socialist Workers Party or the BNP (if such publications exist). I also don't dismiss his arguments, merely his conclusions - purely based on that 5/95% rule of selective reporting!

However, I would not be surprised if he hasn't set in Scotland for a number of years, so is simply writing from his insular concept of what is happening there! It's been a while since I've been there, but my view (from 40+ months working in Edinburgh) was that Scots are naturally more community focused (left-leaning) than Southern English. And that is whether or not they are employed by the (UK or Scottish) government. 

Btw. Are you taking over my 'voice of moderation' role?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 6, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Btw. Are you taking over my 'voice of moderation' role? 

Click to expand...

.


Somehow I can't see me getting the DfT seal of approval.


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## Old Skier (Apr 6, 2015)

CMAC said:



			The overriding theme from what SNP supporters I see posting appears to be (and I summarise) _"The UK wanted us tae stay, now you will know fear as we wreck your union..." _ there are many similar posts all with the same theme and all get 'likes'. It's actually quite disturbing reading the vile hatred and passion to destroy what they see as the reason they are not doing so well, no mention at all about the SNP Scottish government they have had for the last 7 years. 

There are a few on here with similar traits.
		
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Nationalist are well know for their tendency towards violence when they don't get what they want, they unfortunatly have a world wide history of it. Democracy is not something they can sign up to.


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			Nationalist are well know for their tendency towards violence when they don't get what they want, they unfortunatly have a world wide history of it. Democracy is not something they can sign up to.
		
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Absolutely 500% correct!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			Nationalist are well know for their tendency towards violence when they don't get what they want, they unfortunatly have a world wide history of it. Democracy is not something they can sign up to.
		
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Lets be careful here - there hasnt been Scottish nationalists moving towards violence to get "what they want" and i very much doubt they will - its not really a line we should go down - will add nothing but extra tension


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Lets be careful here - there hasnt been Scottish nationalists moving towards violence to get "what they want" and i very much doubt they will - its not really a line we should go down - will add nothing but extra tension
		
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Well the quote by CMAC shows a moderately disturbing reaction to 'not getting their own way'! 

Btw. Well done getting back to Cat 1. I'm sure there's a certain Scottish resident who'll be pleased for you too!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 6, 2015)

CMAC said:



			dont you remember George Sq after they didnt get independence- thuggery violence against anyone that was a NO voter.

That though was after, however the level of aggression on these sites beggars belief. You would think they lived in a police state. It's quite sad.
		
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People being "aggressive" on social media isnt a new thing and more gusto that thunder - And wasnt there some violence from the No voters towards the Yes voters also. But thankfully i dont expect violent episodes from Scotlands Nationalists


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## c1973 (Apr 6, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Lets be careful here - there hasnt been Scottish nationalists moving towards violence to get "what they want" and i very much doubt they will - its not really a line we should go down - will add nothing but extra tension
		
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It is historic, but I'm sure that certain scottish nationalists in the 70s 'may' have indulged or certainly seriously contemplated going down this route. Memory not 100% on this, so I wouldn't like to state it as being factual.  I might have a wee Google later to satisfy my curiosity.  
The word anthrax (in conjunction with a Scottish island) keeps popping into my mind for some reason, but I fear I May be confusing myself with a literary piece of fiction (not the snp fiscal plan) I've read. 



After coming across this on the web last night i found myself contemplating the following today....

I donâ€™t believe that skilled, career diplomats and civil servants (fluent English speakers all, including on the French side) â€“ some of the most (small c) conservative and cautious people around would have inserted something so clearly important into a record of a meeting unless they were confident it had been said.

I donâ€™t believe that The Telegraph (or any national newspaper) would print a story based on a government document unless they were confident about the source â€“ this will have been checked out, including by lawyers.

I donâ€™t believe that The Telegraph would have fabricated such a document either  â€“ not least because do so (especially during an election campaign) would be the kind of behaviour that could finish off a newspaper.

And crucially, I donâ€™t believe that The Telegraph would put something on their front page that helps make Labourâ€™s argument in Scotland (potentially helping Labour hold seats against the SNP) unless they were 100% sure. The Telegraph have shown on a near daily basis over the past five years that they want Cameron to stay and Miliband to be ground into the dust â€“ but sometimes a paper comes across a story that is too good to overlook. Their aim, after all, is to sell newspapers.

http://labourlist.org/2015/04/what-...ore-likely-and-thats-what-matters-to-the-snp/


Made me think anyway.


Edit:http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_National_Liberation_Army

I know it's wiki, but it's a reasonably interesting read.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 6, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			People being "aggressive" on social media isnt a new thing
		
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It even crops up in gentile golf forums :smirk::thup::cheers:


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## Old Skier (Apr 6, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Lets be careful here - there hasnt been Scottish nationalists moving towards violence to get "what they want" and i very much doubt they will - its not really a line we should go down - will add nothing but extra tension
		
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I didn't say they had gone down this route. I said nationalist tend to go down this route. Only time will tell whether the SNP tell their supporters that they lost and the majority of Scots are not interested in Independance or they can keep banging on about it and winding their supporters up.


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## Foxholer (Apr 6, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			It even crops up in *gentile* golf forums :smirk::thup::cheers:
		
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And on Jewish ones? Or so I'm told!


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## c1973 (Apr 6, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			And on Jewish ones? Or so I'm told! 

Click to expand...

UKIP will put an end to them methinks.


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## ColchesterFC (Apr 6, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			Why are the words pot, kettle and black in my head?

What was your question? Restate it and I'll happily answer it.
		
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Doon frae Troon said:



			FGS I have just answered it for you.
		
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I can only assume that you mean that you have "just answered" your own question because you sure as hell have still come nowhere near answering the question I asked you.


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 7, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			It is a stupid question, that is why I did not waste my time replying.

Noe leesten veeery caurfully...............................The only people who can verify what she said were the French Ambassador and the Edinburgh French Council. Both confirmed that she did not state a preference for Cameron as PM.....simple enough for you.
		
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How about SNP insiders?

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/key-snp-figure-defects-labour-5469873


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 7, 2015)

ColchesterFC said:



			I can only assume that you mean that you have "just answered" your own question because you sure as hell have still come nowhere near answering the question I asked you.
		
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:lol:


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 7, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			How about SNP insiders?

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/key-snp-figure-defects-labour-5469873

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Not disputing that a minority Tory government would be best for the SNP in its long term plans of independence.
Trouble is Nicola still has to keep the 'devo max' voters on side to make the seats she hopes will influence Westminster.
The S[myth] Commission was a huge disappointment to that group, which prompted the huge swing towards the SNP.

With tactical voting in England a Lab/Lib coalition is still possible.
That would leave the SNP high and dry at Westminster


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 7, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			Nationalist are well know for their tendency towards violence when they don't get what they want, they unfortunatly have a world wide history of it. Democracy is not something they can sign up to.
		
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Oh come on Old Skier how can you say that when referring to Scotland ....the referendum was a triumph of moderation, on both sides.


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			How about SNP insiders?

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/key-snp-figure-defects-labour-5469873

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These sort of defections are pretty laughable! Non-event really!


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 7, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			These sort of defections are pretty laughable! Non-event really!
		
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Only in the context of the argument on here since he backs up the story that Sturgeon would prefer a Tory government than Labour.


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 7, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			How about SNP insiders?

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/key-snp-figure-defects-labour-5469873

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Is this the guy who didn't get selected to stand for Parliament for The SNP, and now he's 'defecting' because of something that didn't happen? Cool story.

Some folk might find this analysis interesting.

https://opendemocracy.net/ourkingdo...coup-and-labour-is-doing-nothing-to-stop-them


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## FairwayDodger (Apr 7, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Is this the guy who didn't get selected to stand for Parliament for The SNP, and now he's 'defecting' because of something that didn't happen? Cool story.
		
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That's one take on it, if you choose to believe he's lying.



Adi2Dassler said:



			Some folk might find this analysis interesting.

https://opendemocracy.net/ourkingdo...coup-and-labour-is-doing-nothing-to-stop-them

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That is quite interesting. Some stuff in there I can believe, and some spin.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 7, 2015)

Thanks for that Adi. very interesting read.

I urge forummers to take 5 mins out of their busy lives to read it.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			That's one take on it, if you choose to believe he's lying.



That is quite interesting. Some stuff in there I can believe, and some spin.
		
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It's not new with the media

We all know that certain papers will throw their weight behind certain parties and leaders etc and will look to discredit the others and throw in loads of spin 

The unfortunate thing is the rag red tops along with the Mail seem to have too much influence with some people


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## MegaSteve (Apr 7, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Thanks for that Adi. very interesting read.

I urge forummers to take 5 mins out of their busy lives to read it.
		
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Hopefully you took the extra time to read the comments...


All I want to hear from Ms Sturgeon is that she has no designs [as part of any deal with Labour] for additional taxes, for Londoners, to pay for her excesses north of the wall...


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 7, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It's not new with the media

We all know that certain papers will throw their weight behind certain parties and leaders etc and will look to discredit the others and throw in loads of spin 

The unfortunate thing is the rag red tops along with the Mail seem to have too much influence with some people
		
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Is that not the problem as virtually all of the mainline papers spout Tory guff.
All but one of Scotland's papers are anti SNP.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Is that not the problem as virtually all of the mainline papers spout Tory guff.
All but one of Scotland's papers are anti SNP.
		
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It's the same for everyone


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 7, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			Hopefully you took the extra time to read the comments...


All I want to hear from Ms Sturgeon is that she has no designs [as part of any deal with Labour] for additional taxes, for Londoners, to pay for her excesses north of the wall...
		
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I think you will find that it is SLAB leader Jim Murphy who is in favour of that one.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 7, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think you will find that it is SLAB leader Jim Murphy who is in favour of that one.
		
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As is Alex Salmond who's 'boss' I believe is Ms Sturgeon...

And, did you take the time to read the comments?


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Some folk might find this analysis interesting.

https://opendemocracy.net/ourkingdo...coup-and-labour-is-doing-nothing-to-stop-them

Click to expand...

That article pretty much reflects my thoughts!

I would not be surprised if this was the last FPTP UK election - if it lasts 5 years. Nor would I be surprised if whichever government results, it doesn't last very long!

My only issue with some sort of coalition is that the likely main target/candidate for the top-up role is the SNP. It's not that I don't like their policies/people. It's just that they are not a 'whole of UK' mob, so will (or at least should) be focused on Scotland whenever a clash arises. The Lib-Dems, as a 'whole of UK' party have been much more to my taste, if pretty much invisible once their major demand/concession (ironically a referendum on a different voting system) was kicked into touch so dramatically! I doubt it would be rejected by so much if the same question was asked in 6-9 months time! 

For those wanting 'English Votes for English Laws', a coalition with SNP would seem to be a disaster!


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 7, 2015)

FairwayDodger said:



			That's one take on it, if you choose to believe he's lying.
		
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I'm not suggesting he's lying, just that the reason for his re-defection back to the party he originally defected from is based on pillars of salt.

Good luck to the guy, he might get selected to stand in Maggie Currans seat once she's papped out in May, or he might re-re-defect once he's realised he backed the wrong pony.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 7, 2015)

MegaSteve said:



			As is Alex Salmond who's 'boss' I believe is Ms Sturgeon...

And, did you take the time to read the comments?
		
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Alex will do as he is telt:lol:

Yes I read the comments, a bit mixed.


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 7, 2015)

Actually, I'm gonna call bollocks on my own link.The 55 result was nothing like the author describes...Eden won a significant majority.

Apologies for that aspect of the link.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 7, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Thanks for that Adi. very interesting read.

I urge forummers to take 5 mins out of their busy lives to read it.
		
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Having read the article and researched the source, including its funding, I would conclude that, whilst it contains some interesting comment it is precisely that, just comment.

It is not exactly unbiased and also perpetuates the Left's obsession with the power of the Press. It refers to the GE of 1955 and the alliance that returned Eden whilst overlooking those Labour Governments that have been returned as a result of Scottish votes.

I would, however, agree that it is long past the time when the UK, as a whole, abolished FPTP and replaced it with PR.


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 7, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Having read the article and researched the source, including its funding, I would conclude that, whilst it contains some interesting comment it is precisely that, just comment.

It is not exactly unbiased and also perpetuates the Left's obsession with the power of the Press. It refers to the GE of 1955 and the alliance that returned Eden whilst overlooking those Labour Governments that have been returned as a result of Scottish votes.

I would, however, agree that it is long past the time when the UK, as a whole, abolished FPTP and replaced it with PR.
		
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You can't have researched it that well if you agree with the 1955 analysis?


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 7, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			You can't have researched it that well if you agree with the 1955 analysis?
		
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I didn't say I agreed with the analysis. Merely stated that the author was prepared to reference 1955 whilst overlooking other GE results that did not fit his argument.

Without the "other parties" Eden may still have had a majority and a workable one at that as I could not see the Ulster Unionists supporting Attlee.


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			...perpetuates the Left's obsession with the power of the Press....
		
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Pretty understandable when most of Press is decidedly to the Right! And has considerable power - that it uses constantly!


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 7, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Pretty understandable when most of Press is decidedly to the Right! And has considerable power - that it uses constantly!
		
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Sorry but I think you are vastly overrating that power, particularly when the author refers to the Press making it impossible for Milliband to govern.

Strange that those on the Left of centre were quick to decry the Murdoch inspired claim that "It was The Sun wot won it." and yet now those same people are complaining about the power of the Press.

Cannot both be right.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 7, 2015)

Nice to see that Tony Blair has entered the political debate on Europe.

shame he cannot think back far enough to remember he opened the doors to mass unpoliced immigration into this country, which is the cause of a great many peoples issues with immigration.

me finks him opening his "cake hole" may cause more harm than good to the Labour cause


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## MegaSteve (Apr 7, 2015)

With regard the "power of the press".... Many believe that we got Boris as mayor, last time around, due to the writings of one person in the 'local paper'... Not that he wrote support for Boris more that he wrote much bile against Ken... To be fair Ken was an easy target and needed to go... Waiting, with interest, to hear what the same writer has to say about the candidates next year... To see if he wishes to seek to interfere in the same way....


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 7, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Without the "other parties" Eden may still have had a majority and a workable one at that as I could not see the Ulster Unionists supporting Attlee.
		
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Eden won 345 seats all on his own.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 7, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Eden won 345 seats all on his own.
		
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345 included National Liberals and Ulster Unionists.


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 7, 2015)

What are Labour thinking about? Role out Blair on the day of the STV leader debate in Scotland!


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 7, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			345 included National Liberals and Ulster Unionists.
		
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Ah, right.That makes my initial post correct again.I'm like that Labour defector, returning to my origins with head held high!


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 7, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Sorry but I think you are vastly overrating that power, particularly when the author refers to the Press making it impossible for Milliband to govern.

Strange that those on the Left of centre were quick to decry the Murdoch inspired claim that "It was The Sun wot won it." and yet now those same people are complaining about the power of the Press.

Cannot both be right.
		
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The right winger in the comments of Adi's post was mentioning something like it was the English Tory press and represented the English people.
I don't think so, 35% of the English people would be more accurate.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 7, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Ah, right.That makes my initial post correct again.I'm like that Labour defector, returning to my origins with head held high!
		
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Nay problem Adi.

BTW I enjoy this debate, back and forth, as whilst we are diametrically opposed on the Union we appear to share a high regard for democracy. 

For example, if it is the will of the people , I see no reason why the independence issue should not be put to another vote.

 However, if there are consequences for the whole of the UK the basis of that vote should perhaps be widened as to how the country as a whole and its constituent parts should be governed e.g Wales, Northern Ireland, the regions of England.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 7, 2015)

http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/po...-sturgeon-over-reaction-to-memo-leak-1.860986

Bad move from the man being touted in Scotland for the next PM.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



http://www.thecourier.co.uk/news/po...-sturgeon-over-reaction-to-memo-leak-1.860986

Bad move from the man being touted in Scotland for the next PM.
		
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Can't see why it's a bad move ?


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 7, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Nay problem Adi.

BTW I enjoy this debate, back and forth, as whilst we are diametrically opposed on the Union we appear to share a high regard for democracy. 

For example, if it is the will of the people , I see no reason why the independence issue should not be put to another vote.

 However, if there are consequences for the whole of the UK the basis of that vote should perhaps be widened as to how the country as a whole and its constituent parts should be governed e.g Wales, Northern Ireland, the regions of England.
		
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I think the problem is we don't live in a democracy. The democratic opinions of people are not rightly represented at Parliament, and it won't change any time soon.FPTP results in a status quo for the two traditional parties taking turns to be govt, never with a mandate of a majority of the voting public.Until we're using PR we're living a two party dictatorship.

And to bang on about 79 again, a majority of the voting public had their democratic choice refused on the basis of a rule never used before or since!

The SNP/UKIP representation it utterly bizarre..SNP get 5/6% of vote with 45 seats.UKIP get 18% of vote for 2 seats!

So we can have a debate laced with spite and sarcasm and begrudged agreement on certain things on here all we want, the democratic process of The UK is a con.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 7, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			I think the problem is we don't live in a democracy. The democratic opinions of people are not rightly represented at Parliament, and it won't change any time soon.FPTP results in a status quo for the two traditional parties taking turns to be govt, never with a mandate of a majority of the voting public.Until we're using PR we're living a two party dictatorship.

And to bang on about 79 again, a majority of the voting public had their democratic choice refused on the basis of a rule never used before or since!

The SNP/UKIP representation it utterly bizarre..SNP get 5/6% of vote with 45 seats.UKIP get 18% of vote for 2 seats!

So we can have a debate laced with spite and sarcasm and begrudged agreement on certain things on here all we want, the democratic process of The UK is a con.
		
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Whilst I might feel that it is a little strong to totally dismiss our democracy I would broadly agree with your assessment. Our current system is better than a totalitarian state but it is still a long way from perfect.

The media seems wedded to the old bi-partisan FPTP system as has been witnessed throughout the last five years. Every small disagreement between the two Coalition partners has been seized upon as supposedly being an example of why coalitions don't work.

I would suggest that the opposite is the case as, by their nature, no two parties are going to concur on all issues. Like them or not I think that the Conservatives and Lib Dems leadership are to be congratulated for having accepted this and realised that, for the sake of the country, compromises have had to be made.

God knows what the media will make of it if, after this election, a "rainbow alliance" is needed to form a government.


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 7, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Whilst I might feel that it is a little strong to totally dismiss our democracy I would broadly agree with your assessment. Our current system is better than a totalitarian state but it is still a long way from perfect.

The media seems wedded to the old bi-partisan FPTP system as has been witnessed throughout the last five years. Every small disagreement between the two Coalition partners has been seized upon as supposedly being an example of why coalitions don't work.

I would suggest that the opposite is the case as, by their nature, no two parties are going to concur on all issues. Like them or not I think that the Conservatives and Lib Dems leadership are to be congratulated for having accepted this and realised that, for the sake of the country, compromises have had to be made.

God knows what the media will make of it if, after this election, a "rainbow alliance" is needed to form a government.
		
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Of course coalitions work, minority governments works.It results in compromise, finding middle ground, concensus.

Holyrood since it's inception has been a great example of how democracy should work.I'd be galaxies closer to being happy about The UK if it was federal and based on PR.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 7, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Of course coalitions work, minority governments works.It results in compromise, finding middle ground, concensus.

Holyrood since it's inception has been a great example of how democracy should work.I'd be galaxies closer to being happy about The UK if it was federal and based on PR.
		
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I think an awful lot of Scots would agree with your last para. Adi.

It would also give a lot of parity to Lib/Dems and UKIP in England which would make it a more balanced country.


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Sorry but I think you are vastly overrating that power, particularly when the author refers to the Press making it impossible for Milliband to govern.

Strange that those on the Left of centre were quick to decry the Murdoch inspired claim that "It was The Sun wot won it." and yet now those same people are complaining about the power of the Press.

*Cannot both be right*.
		
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Indeed! Those that decried the Murdoch claim were wrong (imo!)!

Not sure about making it impossible for Milliband to govern - once in power, he can simply ignore that element of the Press. But they are actually making it 'impossible for Milliband to get elected' - or at least trying!

It seems to me that th UK Electorate doesn't actually want a coalition. Much happier with either getting their own way, or complaining that they didn't. (Positive) compromise doesn't seem to sit naturally with most Brits!


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 7, 2015)

Scottish Leaders debate tonight on STV.
I hope it does not turn into a cat fight between the two women.
Sturgeon v Lamont was not pretty in the referendum debate.

Tomorrow nights debate on BBC includes a very brave UKIP candidate.


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## CMAC (Apr 7, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Scottish Leaders debate tonight on STV.
*I hope it does not turn into a cat fight between the two women.*
Sturgeon v Lamont was not pretty in the referendum debate.

Tomorrow nights debate on BBC includes a very brave UKIP candidate.
		
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Ruth Davidson is in a different league and class so I doubt it.

Should be an interesting debate, pity its Ponsonby thats chairing


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 7, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			It seems to me that th UK Electorate doesn't actually want a coalition. Much happier with either getting their own way, or complaining that they didn't. (Positive) compromise doesn't seem to sit naturally with most Brits!
		
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Agree with that although, as much as it is a case of not wanting a coalition, it is also about not understanding consensus politics.


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			Agree with that although, as much as it is a case of not wanting a coalition, it is also about not understanding consensus politics.
		
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True. That's where, by having a head-start, the Scots are 'better placed'. Westminster, mainly through PMQ, is seen as a conflict driven place, where actually most of the real work (by Select Committees) is significantly less so. HoL is also more consensual. Press attitudes don't help either! And, as I've stated before, the Lib-Dems haven't helped future coalitions by being rather too quiet about their 'achievements'. It appears they'll suffer because it too, though their predicted losses could be down to folk switching their 'protest' votes.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 7, 2015)

Blair enters the fray for Labour. Do they really need him pitching up and spouting off, especially in Scotland?


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## c1973 (Apr 7, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Blair enters the fray for Labour. Do they really need him pitching up and spouting off, especially in Scotland?
		
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Depends, Homer. 

Plenty of folks think he was a good leader, even in Scotland. He did get a lot of votes up here. 

Plenty will think differently.

I reckon most folks will know who (if anyone) they are voting for anyway. 
I guess it's just a case of a 'heavyweight' will get column inches and screentime, helping to get their message across.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 7, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Depends, Homer. 

Plenty of folks think he was a good leader, even in Scotland. He did get a lot of votes up here. 

Plenty will think differently.

I reckon most folks will know who (if anyone) they are voting for anyway. 
I guess it's just a case of a 'heavyweight' will get column inches and screentime, helping to get their message across.
		
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Fair comment. I guess anything that get's a party message will be viewed as good publicity although he's surely seen as a dinosaur in some quarters


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 7, 2015)

Good message from Blair though.

Anyone on here want the UK to leave the EU ?


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## Hobbit (Apr 7, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Depends, Homer. 

Plenty of folks think he was a good leader, even in Scotland. He did get a lot of votes up here. 

Plenty will think differently.

I reckon most folks will know who (if anyone) they are voting for anyway. 
I guess it's just a case of a 'heavyweight' will get column inches and screentime, helping to get their message across.
		
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He was a great leader, for a term and a half... sadly, he his ego took over and he stopped listening to the people.


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## Old Skier (Apr 7, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Anyone on here want the UK to leave the EU ?
		
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Having seen everything that is bad in the EU my initial response is "I do" however I think things have gone to far. It's turned into a feeding trough for wannabe politicians and civil servants who should be put against a wall and shot.

To much waste and it moved so far away from the original brief without any mandate from the people.


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 7, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			He was a great leader, for a term and a half... sadly, he his ego took over and he stopped listening to the people.
		
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And it's that last part of his tenure that seems to be remembered by so many. He was a good leader initially


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 7, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Good message from Blair though.

Anyone on here want the UK to leave the EU ?
		
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If the creeping federalism continues unabated then probably yes.


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## c1973 (Apr 7, 2015)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Fair comment. I guess anything that get's a party message will be viewed as good publicity although he's surely seen as a dinosaur in some quarters
		
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I'd imagine so, but it's a term I've never really agreed with. Experience can sometimes be a good thing though, so I wouldn't automatically write it off.

Edit: not that I'm saying you would write it off.


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## c1973 (Apr 7, 2015)

I think there might well be an appetite for an in out referendum on Europe, curious that the snp do not support this but will no doubt (imo) be shouting for another referendum to leave the UK after this election. 

Hypocrisy?


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## Fade and Die (Apr 7, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Good message from Blair though.

Anyone on here want the UK to leave the EU ?
		
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But surely its right to be asked? Only UKIP and CON are offering the chance of having a say. Are the others too scared of the answer?


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			Having seen everything that is bad in the EU my initial response is "I do" however I think things have gone to far. It's turned into a feeding trough for wannabe politicians and civil servants who should be put against a wall and shot.

To much waste and it moved so far away from the original brief without any mandate from the people.
		
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An appropriate 'Animal Farm' analogy!  Not sure about your 'remedy' though! 

It wasn't necessarily the EU's fault for not having a mandate. Blair's speech demonstrates the arrogance (or fear of getting the 'wrong' result) that governments - especially his - have shown! And I don't believe Blair is actually correct about the chaos that a referendum would cause! While businesses might plan for either result, there certainly wouldn't be chaos either before or after a referendum imo. The sooner a referendum takes place though, the better. As some decisions by multi-nationals might favour a 'guaranteed' position for the likes of siting new developments.



MetalMickie said:



			If the creeping federalism continues unabated then probably yes.
		
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Nothing wrong with Federalism per se! It's ensuring that the balance between central and devolved authority (Major's 'subsidiarity') is right that is the problem! And it's apathy that allows that authority to be chipped away imo.


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## c1973 (Apr 7, 2015)

The BIG question surely is this.

Did that guy with the blond hair in the black hat have a false moustache on his top lip? It looked proper dodgy.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 7, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Nothing wrong with Federalism per se! It's ensuring that the balance between central and devolved authority (Major's 'subsidiarity') is right that is the problem! And it's apathy that allows that authority to be chipped away imo.
		
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I am afraid a United States of Europe does not sit comfortably with me. It certainly was not what I voted in favour of back in 1975.

A federal Europe subsumes too many national characteristics and identities.


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## lobthewedge (Apr 7, 2015)

Nicola sturgeon says she is going to end austerity by having a modest increase in spending across the board.

Fine. Ok. I get that.

But what confuses me is that she is going to reduce the country's deficit while this spending splurge is going on.

Can anyone explain to me how that works?


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## c1973 (Apr 7, 2015)

Ruth just tore her a 'new one' there with regard to the 'savage cuts'.


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## c1973 (Apr 7, 2015)

Jim Murphy sums it up quite nicely there, 'it's always someone else's fault, isn't it Nicola?'.    The snp default position.  

Not doing to well when it's your own record that is being questioned are we?


Nice answer from Jim on who would be your preference for a coalition if you had to form one?,  'the English Labour party and the Welsh Labour party. 


Sturgeon claiming Labour would prefer a Tory Government!!!  WOW!!!


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 7, 2015)

For the benefit of English viewers.
Quite decent civilised debate apart from Ruth losing it for a wee while shouting and yelling.


Quick final summary from the politically balanced audience.
Polite applause for Rennie, Davidson and Murphy.
Loud applause and cheering for Sturgeon


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## c1973 (Apr 7, 2015)

I liked the audience member who chastised Sturgeon for talking over the top of folk and constantly butting in. Good round of applause for that. 

Booed rather loudly for not ruling out another referendum after the election (nice to hear). Vote snp and you'll be giving them a mandate for another referendum. 

Davidson lost it a wee bit with Murphy, as did Sturgeon when she claimed 'Labour would rather have a Tory Govt!'  (That's a belter btw). Rennie......who is he again???

Murphy done OK, certainly convinced one girl in particular in the audience, but he looks like he needs a good plate of mince in him.....most veggies do mind ye.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 7, 2015)

Regarding our future in Europe.  I hope the Conservatives get the opportunity to try and re-negotiate or position and if some headway can be made on Movement of labour, if so I would seriously consider voting to stay but I doubt if this will happen.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 7, 2015)

lobthewedge said:



			Nicola sturgeon says she is going to end austerity by having a modest increase in spending across the board.

Fine. Ok. I get that.

But what confuses me is that she is going to reduce the country's deficit while this spending splurge is going on.

Can anyone explain to me how that works?
		
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It wont work.   Just like it doesn't in Scotland now.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 7, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			For the benefit of English viewers.
Quite decent civilised debate apart from Ruth losing it for a wee while shouting and yelling.


Quick final summary from the politically balanced audience.
Polite applause for Rennie, Davidson and Murphy.
Loud applause and cheering for Sturgeon
		
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Your summary seems the opposite to the general feelings I have read from people who watched whilst the post on social media


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 7, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Your summary seems the opposite to the general feelings I have read from people who watched whilst the post on social media
		
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In what way... I just mentioned one Ruth moment and the final applause. Quite a bit went on in between.


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## lobthewedge (Apr 7, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Quick final summary from the politically balanced audience.
Polite applause for Rennie, Davidson and Murphy.
Loud applause and cheering for Sturgeon
		
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The funniest clown often gets the loudest applause and cheers at the circus too!


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			I am afraid a United States of Europe does not sit comfortably with me. It certainly was not what I voted in favour of back in 1975.

A federal Europe subsumes too many national characteristics and identities.
		
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I certainly agree with you on that. That's waaaay too far. But by the (strict) definition of 'Federalism', the EU has been a federation (note the lack of capital) since Maastricht was ratified! It's just the balance of authority granted to central/divulged bodies that is being argued about!


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## Foxholer (Apr 7, 2015)

lobthewedge said:



			Nicola sturgeon says she is going to end austerity by having a modest increase in spending across the board.

Fine. Ok. I get that.

But what confuses me is that she is going to reduce the country's deficit while this spending splurge is going on.

Can anyone explain to me how that works?
		
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I believe it's the equivalent of a company investing in capital equipment or another plant - in the hope/expectation that more sales/greater efficiency will result. Growth should mean more exports, taxes and less benefits to pay, therefore reduced deficit.  Whether it happens is a completely different story, especially for a 'left-leaning' government, but quite a good (non-)answer!


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## lobthewedge (Apr 7, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			I believe it's the equivalent of a company investing in capital equipment or another plant - in the hope/expectation that more sales/greater efficiency will result. Growth should mean more exports, taxes and less benefits to pay, therefore reduced deficit.  Whether it happens is a completely different story, especially for a 'left-leaning' government, but quite a good (non-)answer!
		
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So I'm guessing a more accurate stance for the snp to take would be we're going to increase spending, the deficit and debt is likely to increase for a few years, but hopefully, and with a bit of luck, the "investment" will pay off and at some point in the future we may see a return on it.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 8, 2015)

lobthewedge said:



			The funniest clown often gets the loudest applause and cheers at the circus too!
		
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Pretty desperate reply that:lol:

I was surprised by the applause and cheering as I thought she was off form last night.
Remember it was from a politically balanced audience.


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## Hobbit (Apr 8, 2015)

So a vote for the SNP is a vote for a Labour govt. Why not just vote for Labour, and give them a decent working majority in Westminster...?


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## Spuddy (Apr 8, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			So a vote for the SNP is a vote for a Labour govt. Why not just vote for Labour, and give them a decent working majority in Westminster...?
		
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Minority governments are more accountable for their actions


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 8, 2015)

Sturgeon was poor last night, Murphy was nearly as bad and Davidson was probably the best.

The audience ( tache man apart) were equally as insipid.


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## CMAC (Apr 8, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Sturgeon was poor last night, Murphy was nearly as bad and Davidson was probably the best.

The audience ( tache man apart) were equally as insipid.
		
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echoes my thoughts exactly.  (Tache man removed it halfway through- very weird behaviour)


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 8, 2015)

CMAC said:



			echoes my thoughts exactly.  (Tache man removed it halfway through- very weird behaviour)
		
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STV told him to remove it...I though Nick Nolte had taken an interest in Scottish politics!


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## CMAC (Apr 8, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Pretty desperate reply that:lol:

I was surprised by the applause and cheering as I thought she was off form last night.
*Remember it was from a politically balanced audience*.
		
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just to clarify, the rapturous applause and cheering only came from a small section (twice), I'm guessing SNP supporters but I could be wrong


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## CMAC (Apr 8, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			STV told him to remove it...I though Nick Nolte had taken an interest in Scottish politics!
		
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I was hoping it was David Cameron who would do a 'reveal' at the appropriate time


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 8, 2015)

CMAC said:



			I was hoping it was David Cameron who would do a 'reveal' at the appropriate time
		
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Some felt in bore an uncanny resemblance to Johan Lamont


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 8, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			So a vote for the SNP is a vote for a Labour govt. Why not just vote for Labour, and give them a decent working majority in Westminster...?
		
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No no no you have got that wrong.
A vote for SNP will put Cameron in power
According to Labour.

A vote for the SNP is actually a vote for the SNP [simples.]


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## Foxholer (Apr 8, 2015)

lobthewedge said:



			So I'm guessing a more accurate stance for the snp to take would be we're going to increase spending, the deficit and debt is likely to increase for a few years, but hopefully, and with a bit of luck, the "investment" will pay off and at some point in the future we may see a return on it.
		
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Something like that. I think they'd be hoping for a quicker payback, but any failure would be fobbed off with the usual political twaddle 'it takes a little time to percolate through'!  

I'm very sceptical about the ability of any government to really 'manage' the economy. It's too much like a balloon in that a prod or squeeze in one place produces a reaction somewhere else - but they can't be sure where. All they can really do is inflate or deflate the overall thing! The overall economy very often improves 'in spite' of government interference rather than 'because' of it!


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 8, 2015)

It does sound plausible, that increasing spending on infrastructure creates jobs/taxes.Combined with revised taxation policies and taking a slightly longer view to tackle deficit and debt it kinda makes sense to me.And given we've seen cuts do nothing but create more debt, it's worth considering the options.


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## Hobbit (Apr 8, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			So a vote for the SNP is a vote for a Labour govt. Why not just vote for Labour, and give them a decent working majority in Westminster...?
		
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Doon frae Troon said:



			No no no you have got that wrong.
A vote for SNP will put Cameron in power
According to Labour.

A vote for the SNP is actually a vote for the SNP [simples.]
		
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Sooo, if the current % points remain the same come election time, Labour have a 0.6% advantage and maybe a lead of just a few seats. The lovely Nicola said that she would support Labour. Ergo a vote for the SNP is a vote for a Labour govt. 

And back to the original question, why not just vote for Labour and give them a workable majority?


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 8, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			And back to the original question, why not just vote for Labour and give them a workable majority?
		
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Keep them honest, like the LibDems have done with the tories


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 8, 2015)

Speaking of honesty....

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-secretary-alistair-carmichael-i-5465414.

I wonder if the enquiry result will be after the election.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 8, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Sooo, if the current % points remain the same come election time, Labour have a 0.6% advantage and maybe a lead of just a few seats. The lovely Nicola said that she would support Labour. Ergo a vote for the SNP is a vote for a Labour govt. 

And back to the original question, why not just vote for Labour and give them a workable majority?
		
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I thought it would be pretty obvious that the SNP puts Scotland's interest first.
Labour treated Scotland as a branch office for decades and also said some pretty stupid things during the referendum. 
eg Armed border patrols/ forced to drive on the right [right this time]

Looking at some of the Scottish political boards this morning there is some comment about Sturgeon loosening her anti Tory stuff.
Becoming a bit tiresome as the Thatcher years were 30 years ago now.


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## CMAC (Apr 8, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Speaking of honesty....

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-secretary-alistair-carmichael-i-5465414.

I wonder if the enquiry result will be after the election.
		
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who cares- old news now- more important and interesting things in the Election. Move on.


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## Val (Apr 8, 2015)

Hobbit said:



			Sooo, if the current % points remain the same come election time, Labour have a 0.6% advantage and maybe a lead of just a few seats. The lovely Nicola said that she would support Labour. Ergo a vote for the SNP is a vote for a Labour govt. 

And back to the original question, why not just vote for Labour and give them a workable majority?
		
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SNP are the "trendy" party with some factions of the Scottish electorate so they will take seats from Labour, if Labour don't get their act in gear then we may see a minority Tory government.

I think Sturgeon did more harm than good with her remark on a further referendum after the 2016 elections, "the people will decide"!!! Well Nicola the people did decide, the people said NO THANKS to independence so please put this independence talk away for a generation as was promised.


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## c1973 (Apr 8, 2015)

Val said:



			SNP are the "trendy" party with some factions of the Scottish electorate so they will take seats from Labour, if Labour don't get their act in gear then we may see a minority Tory government.

I think Sturgeon did more harm than good with her remark on a further referendum after the 2016 elections, "the people will decide"!!! Well Nicola the people did decide, the people said NO THANKS to independence so please put this independence talk away for a generation as was promised.
		
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I'd agree with that first paragraph.  Trendy in the same way the Greens used to be for some.

Second one is spot on too, I can't understand how she can't rule out a referendum on independence but would not support a referendum on EU membership. 

I'll say it again, hypocrisy. 



She'd be arguably as good a political operator (by that I mean just as sleekit) as Salmond was if she could curb her constant need to (as Jim Murphy so eloquently put it) start making a point 'and then go off on one'. I'm no fan of the woman, but that really makes me switch off. Learned behaviour from Salmond imo. The high pitched squawking does her no favours. 

Still can't believe she said Labour would prefer a Tory Government, before Murphy jumped all over it and she stuttered and stammered her way around it. And, no, it wasn't a slip of the tongue. That's what she said. Clown of a woman.


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## c1973 (Apr 8, 2015)

And they're off again. Davidson and Sturgeon trying to shout over the top of each other (and everyone else). 

UKIP representative not coming across well imo. 

The chair is not very good either. 

How many of these 'town hall meetings' are scheduled?


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## c1973 (Apr 8, 2015)

The Greens seem keen on turning off the oil tap asap.  

They kept quiet on that front during the referendum debate when they and their snp bedfellows were banging on about Â£113 per barrel. Did they not?

Nice round of applause for the lady who tells Sturgeon she does not speak for all of Scotland. :thup:


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## c1973 (Apr 8, 2015)

The Greens, Harvie, making an arse of himself ruling out forming a coalition (red line issues) with this, that and the next thing, until it was pointed out he was ruling himself out of supporting any party that supports capitalism.  Cue, much back tracking. :rofl:

And this, fellow Scots, is responsible for voting on decisions that affect your lives.


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## c1973 (Apr 8, 2015)

'Nicola, you've went from being deputy leader of the big yes campaign to being the leader of the mibbes aye, mibbes naw party'.  Jim Murphy on Sturgeon refusing to rule out asking for another referendum.  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Val (Apr 8, 2015)

c1973 said:



			'Nicola, you've went from being deputy leader of the big yes campaign to being the leader of the mibbes aye, mibbes naw party'.  Jim Murphy on Sturgeon refusing to rule out asking for another referendum.  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
		
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Hilarious, you'll get a few votes for that Jim :rofl:


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## c1973 (Apr 8, 2015)

Val said:



			Hilarious, you'll get a few votes for that Jim :rofl:
		
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He deserves a few votes for that one.


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 9, 2015)

Missed last nights debate, took jnr adi to the WWE...front row seats and I tell thee, those female wrestlers are a sight to behold close up.

Thought this was pretty good:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gen...of-the-SNP-and-putting-the-Union-at-risk.html


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## CMAC (Apr 9, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Missed last nights debate, took jnr adi to the WWE...front row seats and I tell thee, those female wrestlers are a sight to behold close up.

Thought this was pretty good:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gen...of-the-SNP-and-putting-the-Union-at-risk.html

Click to expand...


You missed a rerun of STV's debate. Sturgeon poor, Murphy poor, Davidson good, Greens caught out, Ukip embarrassing, Lib dems neither good nor bad (exactly what they stand for really:smirk


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## Val (Apr 9, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Missed last nights debate, took jnr adi to the WWE...front row seats and I tell thee, those female wrestlers are a sight to behold close up.

Thought this was pretty good:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/gen...of-the-SNP-and-putting-the-Union-at-risk.html

Click to expand...

Did you enjoy it? WWE that is


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## SocketRocket (Apr 9, 2015)

Trust in me!

View attachment 14837


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 10, 2015)

The SNP have certainly opened up debate on Trident.

QT last night gave it quite an airing.
Quite sad to see Labour politicians strongly supporting WMD.
Trident is the 1914 equivalent of the cavalry.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The SNP have certainly opened up debate on Trident.

QT last night gave it quite an airing.
Quite sad to see Labour politicians strongly supporting WMD.
Trident is the 1914 equivalent of the cavalry.
		
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Debate, what debate is that then?    Oh! "We want to scrap Trident"  :blah:


More of a point worth debating is all this "English Oil" that we have found, could be three times the amount taken from the North Sea under the Weald.  Guess the SNP will see it as reason to send more English Bucks over the boarder.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 10, 2015)

David Coburn UKIP............well the Tories are dead in the water [in Scotland]

Sarah Smith........... but they are polling higher than you.


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## MegaSteve (Apr 10, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The SNP have certainly opened up debate on Trident.
		
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It still remains though, that for the vast majority, there are a whole load of 'issues' that need addressing/resolving ahead of concerns relating to 'our' nuclear deterrent...


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## Foxholer (Apr 10, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			While Farage appears to have done a pretty good job of removing the potential embarrassing faux-pas candidates/members - his 'extremist, nasty or barmy' purge - it seems he wasn't totally successful - a UKIP Councillor (who had defected from the Tories)recently  blamed the floods in Henley on (presumably God's wrath at) the passage of gay marriage law. 

As proving anything that 'hasn't been flushed out' is impossible - at least until it has been flushed out! - applying the metrics for Quality/Faults (N have been discovered (recently), that would imply there are about M still to be discovered) would indicate, to me at least, that there are a couple of embarrassing ones still in there. Whether they are found/reveal themselves before May 7 is the question. I'm pretty certain that there will be journalists ready to pounce on any faux-pas, or even actively tracking them down!
		
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Well, it seems there's still work to do on the 'flushing out' front! http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ukip-candidates-secret-life-porn-5483805


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## c1973 (Apr 10, 2015)

I briefly read something on this earlier today. I have to say I see no problem in him being a 'porn star'. Good luck to the guy if that's how he earns/earned a living. 

Having a big 'wullie' (hes a porn star so that's an assumption) shouldn't negate your ability to falsify expenses and abuse your office (should he be successfull). 


After all Salmond ran a country/big coonsil and he's a big knob!


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## Tashyboy (Apr 10, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			Well, it seems there's still work to do on the 'flushing out' front! http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ukip-candidates-secret-life-porn-5483805

Click to expand...

Hes a porn Star. gets my vote pants down &#128563;

having said that thers a piece goin around Mansfield about a lib dem bird who's into erotic snuff scary movies rubbish where she held auditions at the local offices. Her husband works at our place. He's had his leg pulled to say the least.


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 10, 2015)

My old chum Benjamin Franklin once agreed with me when I told him _insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting it to come out different_, so why does The Labour party insist on attacking The SNP when the net result is an increase in support for The SNP?

You seriously have to consider their ability to Govern with such blatant inability to canvass.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			My old chum Benjamin Franklin once agreed with me when I told him _insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting it to come out different_, so why does The Labour party insist on attacking The SNP when the net result is an increase in support for The SNP?

You seriously have to consider their ability to Govern with such blatant inability to canvass.
		
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Yes, Golfs very much like that!


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 10, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, Golf very much like that!
		
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The Labour party: a bit like a **** amateur golfer!


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## c1973 (Apr 10, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			My old chum Benjamin Franklin once agreed with me when I told him insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting it to come out different, so *why does The Labour party insist on attacking The SNP* when the net result is an increase in support for The SNP?

You seriously have to consider their ability to Govern with such blatant inability to canvass.
		
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Maybe because 'honesty is the best policy'?  

Or, indeed it could be that 'any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do'. 

 

Personally, I'm glad they are constantly attacking them, even though I do believe it could be political suicide for them in Scotland in the short term, but in the long term it's the correct thing to do. It's what the opposition do in politics you know.

Why should the snp not be attacked on wanting to blame anything bad that happens on those bad folk at Westminster, while wanting all the credit for anything good that happens up here?


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## Ethan (Apr 10, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Maybe because 'honesty is the best policy'?  

Or, indeed it could be that 'any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do'. 

 

Personally, I'm glad they are constantly attacking them, even though I do believe it could be political suicide for them in Scotland in the short term, but in the long term it's the correct thing to do. It's what the opposition do in politics you know.

Why should the snp not be attacked on wanting to blame anything bad that happens on those bad folk at Westminster, while wanting all the credit for anything good that happens up here?
		
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Honesty? This is politics. These guys don't deal in honesty. If they believed in honesty, they could also comment on their relationships with donors and the city, what their real plans are of the NHS and what Bush and Blair really talked about. 

The SNP have baited Labour and the Tories into attacking them, knowing it smacks of anti-Scottishness and shores up the SNP vote, as well as making some 'No' voters wonder if they made the right decision. Very clever politics.


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## c1973 (Apr 10, 2015)

Ethan said:



			Honesty? This is politics. These guys don't deal in honesty. If they believed in honesty, they could also comment on their relationships with donors and the city, what their real plans are of the NHS and what Bush and Blair really talked about. 

The SNP have baited Labour and the Tories into attacking them, knowing it sacked of anti-Scottishness and shores up the SNP vote, as well as making some 'No' voters wonder if they made the right decision. Very clever politics.
		
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If you look closely you'll see the main thrust of my response was the inclusion of a couple of Benjamin Franklin quotes (thats the honesty part) directed at the previous post (containing a Benjamin Franklin quote). It wasn't really intended as a statement that I believe they are honest. 

I'm in no doubt the snp are playing them (Labour in particular should have foreseen this issue  when they gave the go ahead for that expensive, waste of public cash at Holyrood). But, I stand by my short term/long term belief alluded to in my post.


Edit: Forgot to add. I for one don't believe it is 'anti Scottish' to attack the snp, but I'm not that easily fooled.
I can, however, see how others have been hoodwinked into believing that particular lie foisted on the public during the referendum campaign.


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## Adi2Dassler (Apr 10, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Maybe because 'honesty is the best policy'?  

Or, indeed it could be that 'any fool can criticize, condemn and complain - and most fools do'. 

 

Personally, I'm glad they are constantly attacking them, even though I do believe it could be political suicide for them in Scotland in the short term, but in the long term it's the correct thing to do. It's what the opposition do in politics you know.

Why should the snp not be attacked on wanting to blame anything bad that happens on those bad folk at Westminster, while wanting all the credit for anything good that happens up here?
		
Click to expand...

Of course it's good for the democratic process, highlighting any failing in any party is good for the electorate.But my point is Labour can't gain anything from it in Scotland, or at least that's what polling suggests.They should try something different if they want to make headway into the almost 50% polling The SNP have.

Or they could just pull out of Scotland and save cash/energy.IF there's to be another election, they're nearly skint already, so save the cash.


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## c1973 (Apr 10, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			Of course it's good for the democratic process, highlighting any failing in any party is good for the electorate.But my point is Labour can't gain anything from it in Scotland, or at least that's what polling suggests.They should try something different if they want to make headway into the almost 50% polling The SNP have.

Or they could just pull out of Scotland and save cash/energy.IF there's to be another election, they're nearly skint already, so save the cash.
		
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I get your point, if you read my post you'll see I kind of agree with you. 

I still think they (and others) should be attacking the snp though. 
As I mentioned, short term it's possibly not doing any good, but I reckon that's got more to do with a point Val made about the snp being the trendy party at the moment, that, imo, will pass. They'll still get votes, quite possibly an increase on where they were a few years ago, but this, again imo, is their peak in terms of voter popularity in a UK election.   

The 'pretend parliament' is another argument though, I reckon they will do well there....until Labour get their act together, but they'll have to do that sharpish or they'll lose a lot of core support to the snp, permanently (in terms of Scottish elections).  And, I don't see an out and out leader that can unify the factions within Labour into an effective party, as it was under Tony Blair. Labour have got problems up here.


I'm not commenting on your second paragraph, cos yer just being daft!


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 10, 2015)

Strange stuff....it seems the more popular Jim Murphy becomes the lower Labour polls.


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## Old Skier (Apr 10, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Quite sad to see Labour politicians strongly supporting WMD.
Trident is the 1914 equivalent of the cavalry.
		
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I think you have your history mixed up. The cavalry in 1914 was more like having a bow and arrow against a machine gun.



This was the WMD of that time when they learnt how to use them. Something the Calvary could never get to grips with.


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## c1973 (Apr 10, 2015)

Cyber (g)nats at it again I see (retweeting)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-scotland-32241974

Fairplay to whoever does Sturgeons Twitter account, at least they apologised to the lassie. Might even have been Lego heid herself, credit where it's due.


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## Foxholer (Apr 10, 2015)

Old Skier said:





Doon frae Troon said:



			.
Quite sad to see Labour politicians strongly supporting WMD.
Trident is the 1914 equivalent of the cavalry.
		
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I think you have your history mixed up. The cavalry in 1914 was more like having a bow and arrow against a machine gun....
		
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You may have missed Doon's point! The implication - to me - was that Trident is expensive and outdated! Wouldn't know about it being outdated, but that's quite possibly the reason a replacement is being checked out.

Btw. That Tank looks like 1917 technology, Tanks (Landships) weren't used (by UK) until 1916!


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 10, 2015)

Old Skier said:



			I think you have your history mixed up. The cavalry in 1914 was more like having a bow and arrow against a machine gun.

View attachment 14844

This was the WMD of that time when they learnt how to use them. Something the Calvary could never get to grips with.
		
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No I did not.
Having a weapon that no one will use makes it a non weapon.

The next generation will be more worried about attacks like the recent alleged IS hit on French TV multiplied to Wall Street and London SE.
Plus specific germ warfare like spreading the Ebola virus in major western cities.
No one will know what group/country will have caused the damage so no one to attack with WMD.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No I did not.
Having a weapon that no one will use makes it a non weapon.

The next generation will be more worried about attacks like the recent alleged IS hit on French TV multiplied to Wall Street and London SE.
Plus specific germ warfare like spreading the Ebola virus in major western cities.
No one will know what group/country will have caused the damage so no one to attack with WMD.
		
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You don't seem to get the concept of a Nuclear Deterrent.    Why do you believe no one will use them?


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 10, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			You don't seem to get the concept of a Nuclear Deterrent.    Why do you believe no one will use them?
		
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Because my father told me in 1963

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...se-next-lot-of-trident-missiles-2015040997173


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2015)

Adi2Dassler said:



			The Labour party: a bit like a **** amateur golfer!
		
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No!  Like someone doing the same things and expecting a different result.


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## CheltenhamHacker (Apr 10, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			No!  Like someone doing the same things and expecting a different result.
		
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So yeh, like an a rubbish amateur golfer!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 10, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			No I did not.
Having a weapon that no one will use makes it a non weapon.

The next generation will be more worried about attacks like the recent alleged IS hit on French TV multiplied to Wall Street and London SE.
Plus specific germ warfare like spreading the Ebola virus in major western cities.
No one will know what group/country will have caused the damage so no one to attack with WMD.
		
Click to expand...

If I were to go down this metaphorical route I'd perhaps suggest that Cyberwarfare is to Trident what German Disregard was to the Maginot Line.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 10, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Cyber (g)nats at it again I see (retweeting)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-scotland-32241974

Fairplay to whoever does Sturgeons Twitter account, at least they apologised to the lassie. Might even have been Lego heid herself, credit where it's due.
		
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Reading into the background of this I discover that it was the Lib Dem _Voice _website that matched the lass on QT with a Labour supporter.  The Nats supporters then picked up on it and tweeted their idiocy - to their discredit.


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## c1973 (Apr 10, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Reading into the background of this I discover that it was the Lib Dem _Voice _website that matched the lass on QT with a Labour supporter.  The Nats supporters then picked up on it and tweeted their idiocy - to their discredit.
		
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It was Nats MSPs that were 'retweeting' as well(Not sure if that's the correct terminology, can't be arsed with Twitter/Facebook).


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## c1973 (Apr 10, 2015)

I'm still waiting on an explanation as to how they are going to fund the Â£7 Billion black hole in their full fiscal autonomy plan. What taxes are going up and/or where are the cuts going to be, or, would they borrow more? 

Saying that other parties are returning to 'smears, as they did in the referendum' is no answer. 
It's worrying that so many Scots appear to be willing to let this lot loose with the public purse. Genuinely worrying.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 10, 2015)

I have a question for David Cameron.  David - you, your party and supporters and your supporting press tell us that Nicola Sturgeon is the most dangerous woman in Britain; that the SNP will destroy the union of the UK; that the SNP will put the future defence of the UK at risk; that the SNP will undermine all the good work that the coalition has done over the last five years - in fact you tell us that the Nicola Sturgeon and SNP are all round vile and dastardly.  

So David - it would seem from all this talk that you and your acolytes would want Labour to wipe the SNP off the face of the Scottish electoral map in the GE.

But David is it your real wish that the SNP 'wipe the floor' with Labour in the GE.  A Yes or No would be nice - because I'm confused.  Pray tell!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 10, 2015)

...and oh yes.  All prospective UKIP voters should perhaps have a listen to the wit and wisdom of Mr David Coburn Scottish UKIP MEP - plenty of his nice and reasoned arguments out there - but a good starting point was the BBC Scotland 'Leaders' Debate on Wednesday.  And then you can tell us all how UKIP are 'right' for the UK.  

Oh yes - and then there are the recent musings of my own local UKIP MEP Diane James such as on Putin - and she's also on my local (Waverley) Council - and what a bunch that lot are.  

Top stuff from senior UKIP representatives.


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## c1973 (Apr 10, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and oh yes.  All prospective UKIP voters should perhaps have a listen to the wit and wisdom of Mr David Coburn Scottish UKIP MEP - plenty of his nice and reasoned arguments out there - but a good starting point was the BBC Scotland 'Leaders' Debate on Wednesday.  And then you can tell us all how UKIP are 'right' for the UK.  

Oh yes - and then there are the recent musings of my own local UKIP MEP Diane James such as on Putin - and she's also on my local (Waverley) Council - and what a bunch that lot are.  

Top stuff from senior UKIP representatives.
		
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Yes, very good. But have you saw any films with their latest rising 'star'. Tbf, I've heard he's not very good, a bit wooden if you like.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 10, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have a question for David Cameron.  David - you, your party and supporters and your supporting press tell us that Nicola Sturgeon is the most dangerous woman in Britain; that the SNP will destroy the union of the UK; that the SNP will put the future defence of the UK at risk; that the SNP will undermine all the good work that the coalition has done over the last five years - in fact you tell us that the Nicola Sturgeon and SNP are all round vile and dastardly.  


So David - it would seem from all this talk that you and your acolytes would want Labour to wipe the SNP off the face of the Scottish electoral map in the GE.

But David is it your real wish that the SNP 'wipe the floor' with Labour in the GE.  A Yes or No would be nice - because I'm confused.  Pray tell!
		
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Now this may surprise you.    David Cameron probably doesn't read Golf Monthly Forum's 'Out of Bounds"


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## ger147 (Apr 10, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Now this may surprise you.    David Cameron probably doesn't read Golf Monthly Forum's 'Out of Bounds"
		
Click to expand...

Only seen him in Ask the Experts and the For Sale sections.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 10, 2015)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20179604

Three years old, but the views of a former Tory defense minister.


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## c1973 (Apr 10, 2015)

And the views of *FIVE* former defence ministers.....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...rmer-defence-ministers-and-Forces-chiefs.html

X amount of years old.


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## Old Skier (Apr 10, 2015)

Foxholer said:



			You may have missed Doon's point! The implication - to me - was that Trident is expensive and outdated! Wouldn't know about it being outdated, but that's quite possibly the reason a replacement is being checked out.
		
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I might well have. The nuclear deterant IMHO open is a weapon that the UK could well do without. As we have made it quite clear we would not make a first strike what is the point. The U.S. On the other hand always stated that they were quite prepared to initiate a first strike, which on two occasions sitting in the Fulda Gap made for and interesting experience.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 10, 2015)

c1973 said:



			I'm still waiting on an explanation as to how they are going to fund the Â£7 Billion black hole in their full fiscal autonomy plan. What taxes are going up and/or where are the cuts going to be, or, would they borrow more? 

Saying that other parties are returning to 'smears, as they did in the referendum' is no answer. 
It's worrying that so many Scots appear to be willing to let this lot loose with the public purse. Genuinely worrying.
		
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I don't quite get Labour making a serious attack on the SNP plans for fiscal autonomy because no matter that the SNP might have it on their wish list, it will stay just right there unless a Westminster government determines to give it to Holyrood,  and if they do not there is nothing that the SNP can do about it.  In fact in the context of the GE any stated wish or even demand coming from the SNP for fiscal autonomy is just pie-in-the sky.  Even were the SNP to win all seats in Scotland with 100% of the vote it just isn't going to happen unless someone else gives it to them.  So if the SNP *did *get it Westminster would only have itself to blame.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 10, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Now this may surprise you.    David Cameron probably doesn't read Golf Monthly Forum's 'Out of Bounds"
		
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...ah - but just in case he does...

the question remains...maybe someone can suggest what he'd answer because I haven't a clue.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 10, 2015)

The Telegraphoo:.......must be true then.


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## c1973 (Apr 11, 2015)

A signed letter. 

I'd err on the side of common sense and go with this being genuine......albeit just as out of date as the link it was in response to.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 11, 2015)

Must make this true as well then.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...es-turn-to-Gordon-Brown-to-save-campaign.html


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 11, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The Telegraphoo:.......must be true then.
		
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Re the article of giving up Trident - the statement in the first paragraph _'...position as a leading world power will be at stake'_ is the one that many would shrug and say 'yes? - so what!'


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 11, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Must make this true as well then.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...es-turn-to-Gordon-Brown-to-save-campaign.html

Click to expand...

And it beggars my earlier question - do the Tories what Labour wiped out in Scotland as that would mean Labour having a almost nil chance of a majority; or do they want the SNP stamped on by Labour as the SNP are a danger to the UK, defence, economy etc?  Despite their fervent anti-SNP and anti Sturgeon/Salmond rhetoric, I think that the Tories actually want the SNP to wipe the floor with Labour in Scotland.


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## c1973 (Apr 11, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Must make this true as well then.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...es-turn-to-Gordon-Brown-to-save-campaign.html

Click to expand...

Do you see me claiming it is true anywhere?  A genuine letter, yes.
Stating that the letter appears genuine does not mean I'm claiming the contents are truthful. Perhaps you should absorb what you are reading as opposed to running round in circles chasing your tail like a wee yappy dug?

Unlike you, I tend to offer my opinion (an opinion I'll often support with corobboritive information....again, unlike you) and rarely state my opinion as being factual...yet again a trait you appear to be acquainted with. 

Have a nice day.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 11, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Do you see me claiming it is true anywhere?  A genuine letter, yes.
Stating that the letter appears genuine does not mean I'm claiming the contents are truthful. Perhaps you should absorb what you are reading as opposed to running round in circles chasing your tail like a wee yappy dug?

Unlike you, I tend to offer my opinion (an opinion I'll often support with corobboritive information....again, unlike you) and rarely state my opinion as being factual...yet again a trait you appear to be acquainted with. 

Have a nice day. 

Click to expand...

Calm down..... I did not mention you personally.......just a general comment on the political bias of yet another mainstream newspaper.


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## c1973 (Apr 11, 2015)

Aye. Ok.

I think it was pretty obvious you were responding to my post.


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## Doon frae Troon (Apr 11, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And it beggars my earlier question - do the Tories what Labour wiped out in Scotland as that would mean Labour having a almost nil chance of a majority; or do they want the SNP stamped on by Labour as the SNP are a danger to the UK, defence, economy etc?  Despite their fervent anti-SNP and anti Sturgeon/Salmond rhetoric, I think that the Tories actually want the SNP to wipe the floor with Labour in Scotland.
		
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I think the Telegraph/Tories are playing a blinder.
They can see the Tories will not get a majority so best outcome is a same again coalition.
I think middle England will boost the Lib Dem vote and pinch some seats off Labour. This is the only way to cut out the SNP.
On the other hand I think the SNP policies [less independence] are quite popular for English voters. 
Going to be close.

George Galloway in charge of the UK will not be pretty.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 11, 2015)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I think the Telegraph/Tories are playing a blinder.
They can see the Tories will not get a majority so best outcome is a same again coalition.
I think middle England will boost the Lib Dem vote and pinch some seats off Labour. This is the only way to cut out the SNP.
On the other hand I think the SNP policies [less independence] are quite popular for English voters. 
Going to be close.

George Galloway in charge of the UK will not be pretty.
		
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Was speaking with my brother this morning - he lives in Aberdeen and is a senior guy in a big Civil Engineering Company working in the oil industry.  Says all the doom and gloom about the oil price etc and impact on Aberdeen is largely exaggerated.

He's finding it curious that Labour/Tories are keeping on at the SNP as he's seeing support growing for the SNP the more they do.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 11, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Was speaking with my brother this morning - he lives in Aberdeen and is a senior guy in a big Civil Engineering Company working in the oil industry.  Says all the doom and gloom about the oil price etc and impact on Aberdeen is largely exaggerated.

He's finding it curious that Labour/Tories are keeping on at the SNP as he's seeing support growing for the SNP the more they do.
		
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So are you suggesting that Holyrood and the SNP were crying wolf when they asked Westminster for action and support for the industry.

With projects being scrapped and mothballed it is hard to see a good picture for the North Sea oil industry in the short to medium term.


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## TigerIsAmazing (Apr 11, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Was speaking with my brother this morning - *he lives in Aberdeen and is a senior guy in a big Civil Engineering Company working in the oil industry. * Says all the doom and gloom about the oil price etc and impact on Aberdeen is largely exaggerated.

He's finding it curious that Labour/Tories are keeping on at the SNP as he's seeing support growing for the SNP the more they do.
		
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ahh so one snr guy in a company that probably has loads of work just now says its all exaggerated, I'll tell the people I know who have been laid off, I'm sure they will feel better


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 11, 2015)

MetalMickie said:



			So are you suggesting that Holyrood and the SNP were crying wolf when they asked Westminster for action and support for the industry.

With projects being scrapped and mothballed it is hard to see a good picture for the North Sea oil industry in the short to medium term.
		
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I'm saying my brother - who should know about these things - is not convinced that there is any great medium term issue.  Maybe in the short term there is but he's not concerned about the medium term future.


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## Deleted member 18588 (Apr 11, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I'm saying my brother - who should know about these things - is not convinced that there is any great medium term issue.  Maybe in the short term there is but he's not concerned about the medium term future.
		
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You are not the only one with familial connections. My son is employed within the oil & gas industry and his company, who have to take a medium to long term view are far from convinced of the future for North Sea and North Atlantic projects.

Either way Holyrood seems pretty concerned.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 11, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And it beggars my earlier question - do the Tories what Labour wiped out in Scotland as that would mean Labour having a almost nil chance of a majority; or do they want the SNP stamped on by Labour as the SNP are a danger to the UK, defence, economy etc?  Despite their fervent anti-SNP and anti Sturgeon/Salmond rhetoric, I think that the Tories actually want the SNP to wipe the floor with Labour in Scotland.
		
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Does it really matter to them?   Whether the Scottish MP's are Labour or SNP they are the opposition, it's whether they are enough to bring down the Queen's speech, Budget or a confidence vote


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## c1973 (Apr 12, 2015)

Sunday Politics on the beeb, and she's off again....talking over the top of everyone, she just cannot stop herself. 

Again she's unable to explain the Â£7 Billion black hole and how it would be funded. I wouldn't trust her to get the weekly shop in. 

Growth would need to be double that of the UK, which is the fastest growing economy in Europe (I believe). That's some magic wand she possesses. 


Absolutely shambolic. I wouldn't encourage any of them with a vote. Sturgeons a disgrace, Murphy is marginally less so, Davidson is sitting back saying not very much and.......who's that other fella?


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## Beezerk (Apr 12, 2015)

c1973 said:



			Sunday Politics on the beeb, and she's off again....talking over the top of everyone, she just cannot stop herself.
		
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Bully politics a bit like her predecessor.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Does it really matter to them?   Whether the Scottish MP's are Labour or SNP they are the opposition, it's whether they are enough to bring down the Queen's speech, Budget or a confidence vote
		
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Does it really matter to the Tories?  Dunno - but they must have a view - and I'd like to hear what it is.  SNP wipe out Labour or Labour successfully repulse SNP?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2015)

Beezerk said:



			Bully politics a bit like her predecessor.
		
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Perhaps - but she's not as Bovril divisive as her predecessors.


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## Beezerk (Apr 12, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Perhaps - but she's not as Bovril divisive as her predecessors.
		
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I like Bovril.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2015)

Beezerk said:



			I like Bovril.
		
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Doesn't mean you like Marmite.


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## SocketRocket (Apr 12, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Does it really matter to the Tories?  Dunno - but they must have a view - and I'd like to hear what it is.  SNP wipe out Labour or Labour successfully repulse SNP?
		
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Yes, they will have a view.   it's probably that both are a pain in the butt to them and they would rather people voted Tory.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2015)

SocketRocket said:



			Yes, they will have a view.   it's probably that both are a pain in the butt to them and they would rather people voted Tory.
		
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I think so also.  They make lots of noise about how awful and dangerous the SNP are but secretly want them to do really well 

Curious times; interesting times.


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## TigerIsAmazing (Apr 12, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I think so also.  *They make lots of noise about how awful and dangerous the SNP are but secretly want them to do really well* 

Curious times; interesting times.
		
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can I ask where this comes from as that's not what is being potrayed? or is it your opinion?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 12, 2015)

TigerIsAmazing said:



			can I ask where this comes from as that's not what is being potrayed? or is it your opinion?
		
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As said - I have no idea myself that's why I'd like to hear whether Tories want the SNP rejected given dangerous the SNP are...

But Labour wins 40 seats? - they could have a majority without the SNP support.  SNP wins 40 seats? Tories have a go at creating a government - and Labour require SNP support for a working majority if the Tories can't.  And then the Tories can attack Labour for tying up even loosely with the 'dangerous' SNP.  Seems to me that Labour wiped out by the SNP is the best of two not that great outcomes in Scotland for the Tories.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 22, 2015)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Hence why i will vote for no one
		
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Out of interest LP - did you vote in the end?  If you did what changed your mind?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 22, 2015)

LibDem MPs in Scotland - And then there was one...?

DfT said 4th April




			OK over to you.........proof of her saying it please................ one minor Whitehall officer trying ingratiate himself with his boss's thinking.
Unless you know better.

Why are the Foreign Office saying no memo exists?
		
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ColchesterFC said:



			Straight question for you DfT.........

*IF* it turns out that these comments are proved to have been said and Nicola Sturgeon has lied do you think she should have to resign?
		
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Or maybe now the ex-Scottish Secretary should become an ex-MP.  Sheeesh!


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## ColchesterFC (May 22, 2015)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			LibDem MPs in Scotland - And then there was one...?

DfT said 4th April





Or maybe now the ex-Scottish Secretary should become an ex-MP.  Sheeesh!
		
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In response to the first part of your post it turns out that regardless of the truth of what was contained in it the memo did actually exist despite the Foreign Office saying it didn't.

And for the second part of of your post. Yes I absolutely think that Alistair Carmichael should resign having been caught lying about this.

And I'm fairly sure that DfT never actually answered that one or any of the other questions that were put to him directly if the answers didn't fit with his agenda.


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