# World Handicap System (WHS)



## JohnnyDee (Jan 21, 2020)

As we are mostly all aware the new WHS is on its way, and after not having heard about it since last year from our club we got an email today from our Director of Golf explaining how we will implement it.

We're adopting the slope and new handicap classification from October and as a precursor to that the recommendation is we get as many qualifying / supplementary cards entered onto our system before the inception. For those unaware the new WHS handicaps will be calculated from an average of the best 8 cards from your preceding 20 in both supplementary and competition (Q) play. Therefore the more cards you have in your club's records prior to the new system then the more accurate your new handicap will be.

Also the rumour that I have heard a lot i.e. a card to be submitted every time you go out is incorrect. There is no requirement to do this see excerpt below and a link to a video that explains the new system in full.

It appears we have not had our official slope classification yet but our County body will do it next month in readiness for October.

Apologies if all this has previously been posted but I was unable to find it.

There's a change a-comin' 

_"There has been talk among members that you will have to 'put a card in every time you play'. *You do not*, but you can if you so desire as there will be a daily Competition Scratch Score (CSS) calculation each day (much like we have with each competition). This score will more likely change every day to include adverse weather conditions in the calculation too. *Category 1 Golfers will also be able to enter cards daily,* from the introduction date if they so wish."_

_https://www.randa.org/WorldHandicapSystem_


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## rulefan (Jan 21, 2020)

JohnnyDee said:



			We're adopting the slope and new handicap classification from October and as a precursor to that the recommendation is we get as many qualifying / supplementary cards entered onto our system before the inception.
		
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Not quite. Scores submitted before 2 November will still be processed by the CONGU system as now. However, during the few (unspecified) months before implementation, scores will also be sent to the WHS software which will run a parallel process showing what your handicap would be under WHS. That figure will be used from 2 Nov together with slope and processed for real overnight. Your current ISV software will continue to manage competition results.




			It appears we have not had our official slope classification yet but our County body will do it next month in readiness for October.
		
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Very unlikely. Rating is only permitted in the summer season (ie nominally normal playing conditions)



 ......_as there will be a daily Competition Scratch Score (CSS) calculation each day (much like we have with each competition). This score will more likely change every day to include adverse weather conditions in the calculation too. _

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Again, not quite. There will be a Playing Conditions Calculation (PCC) which compares all scores *returned *(not necessarily played) on the day. The algorithm is quite different to CSS in that it is a statistical calculation involving _inter_ _alia_ standard deviations. It determines the expected scores of that days players and compares them with the actual scores achieved. The effect is only similar to CSS in that course conditions, weather conditions and course set-up may have an effect. There has to be a minimum of 8 scores for it to kick in.


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## JohnnyDee (Jan 21, 2020)

Thanks for the clarifications RF.


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## Diamond (Jan 22, 2020)

I am joining a club this weekend for the first time.  Reading the current rules I need 3 cards to be signed by a full member to get my handicap.  Will this new WHS system change all that?


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## USER1999 (Jan 22, 2020)

When WHS kicks in, will they take my last 20 submitted cards, some of which may be from before November, or only those since November for h/cap purposes?


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## duncan mackie (Jan 22, 2020)

Diamond said:



			I am joining a club this weekend for the first time.  Reading the current rules I need 3 cards to be signed by a full member to get my handicap.  Will this new WHS system change all that?
		
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No, in the sense that the current system will still be I  place as set out above.
Yes in that if you haven't a handicap allocated by the start date it will be the new allocation  process adoptednunder the new sysyem - but for all intents and purposes that will look and feel like the existing one to the player!


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## duncan mackie (Jan 22, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			When WHS kicks in, will they take my last 20 submitted cards, some of which may be from before November, or only those since November for h/cap purposes?
		
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From the earlier thread, the reason for the push for more current cards is that they are putting a cut off on how far back they are going in a player handicap record. I believe that is the beginning of 2018 but Rulefan, who's the only person who seems to know that bit, can confirm


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## USER1999 (Jan 22, 2020)

Ok, as I put in 12 cards in 2019, and 15 in 2018. I doubt I will put more than that in this year either, and many people will be less than this.


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## rulefan (Jan 22, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			When WHS kicks in, will they take my last 20 submitted cards, some of which may be from before November, or only those since November for h/cap purposes?
		
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The last I heard officially was that the were going back two years. It has now been suggested they may go back more than two years.
The latter could be true as there is more than two years data in the CDH. 

If you haven't got 20 scores in during that period your new handicap will be allocated as if you were qualifying for an initial allocation. By taking each score in turn from the oldest and going through the new WHS process.


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## Diamond (Jan 22, 2020)

duncan mackie said:



			No, in the sense that the current system will still be I  place as set out above.
Yes in that if you haven't a handicap allocated by the start date it will be the new allocation  process adoptednunder the new sysyem - but for all intents and purposes that will look and feel like the existing one to the player!
		
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Thanks, seems to be a good time to take the sport up.


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## nickjdavis (Jan 22, 2020)

I'm off to a WHS meeting this afternoon run by my local county union....should be interesting...will ask about the cut off date.


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## IanMcC (Jan 22, 2020)

Yesterday I sent out an initial heads up of the changes that are coming under WHS, mainly because i have been approached 4 or 5 times by separate parties asking what is happening. Here is the text. I hope there are not too many corrections required once the real experts cast eyes on it :

What is WHS and why is it important to me?

Recently I have been asked a few questions regarding the World Handicap System (WHS), which comes into effect in the UK in November this year. It is a little early to send out a full explanation, as the governing bodies in the UK have still to finalise some details, but this letter spells out the basic principles, and at the end there are a couple of hyperlinks for further investigation.

Currently there are six handicapping governing bodies worldwide. The UK is affiliated to CONGU (Council of National Golf Unions). After WHS is introduced worldwide then every golfer in the world will be under the same governing body, with the same rules and guidelines. The introduction date in the UK is 2/11/20, the first Monday in November.

What are the main changes under WHS?


WHS will use the USGA course and slope rating system – your handicap will change depending on the difficulty of the course and the competition conditions.
For all regular club golfers the playing history of the past 20 rounds will be used for the initial handicap index calculation.
Handicap indexes will be calculated using the best eight of the last 20 scores. The 0.1 increase will disappear
Both competitive and Supplementary Scores will be able to count for handicap.

Competition Standard Scratch (CSS) will be replaced by a new system known as the Playing Conditions Calculation (PCC) which will adjust all scores for handicap purposes depending on the scores posted that day. This will happen overnight so it’s important to enter your scores electronically after you complete your round.
How can I have a different handicap on different courses? Surely my handicap is my handicap!

Presently golfers have a handicap, which is a constant regardless of where they play, and it goes up or down after each competitive round accordingly, dependant on which Category they play in. This will completely change in November. Each golfer will have a ‘handicap index’, which is worked out as an average of your best 8 scores from your previous 20 rounds played. This handicap index is then taken to the course. Each course now has a ‘Slope Rating’. Further explanation of this rating and how it is reached can be found in the hyperlinks below, but it is sufficient to realise that each measured course, for Gents and Ladies, will have its own slope rating. Your handicap index is inserted into a simple formula with the Slope Rating to obtain your ‘Course Handicap’. Rhuddlan was rated in 2017, and again there is a hyperlink at the bottom of the page taking you to the ratings. In reality, there will be a matrix in the pro shop which you can read off your Course Handicap on, as long as you know your Handicap Index for that day.

Will there be a roll out explaining the changes at Rhuddlan Golf Club?

The Golf Union of Wales are currently planning seminars for Match & Handicap Committee members to explain the changes. These are beginning in March. Once I have attended one of these seminars then I will communicate again with the members via email, and host a roll out in the clubhouse for any people with a further interest.

Will I see any changes before November at Rhuddlan?

It is imperative that all scores are entered electronically under WHS, as the new handicap indexes for players will be calculated overnight by the software, and not as present when the competition is closed out by the M&H Secretary. We have a very poor returns rate on the computer compared to other clubs. Many people submit their card by putting it in the box, and walk away from the computer. This will be unacceptable under WHS, as your handicap index will be incorrect the next day and the PCC will be affected also, which affects the whole field’s adjustments. Once qualifying competitions resume in the Spring, it is our intention to impose a Code of Conduct penalty for players not entering their scores on the computer, and not returning their card into the box. (Unless of course there is evidence that the hardware was faulty, which can happen on occasion.) For the first 2 offences a warning will be sent. For any further offences a 4-competition ban will be imposed (2 Wednesdays and 2 Sundays). I will be saddened and surprised if any bans have to be imposed. This should get us all in the mindset of entering our scores electronically before November.

How can I find out more information?

The Golf Union of Wales website has some short instructional videos further explaining aspects of the WHS: https://www.walesgolf.org/world-handicap-system/

Rhuddlan’s Ratings can be seen here, at the National Course Rating Database: https://ncrdb.usga.org/courseTeeInfo.aspx?CourseID=17348

There is a good website at Mapperley Golf Club, explaining in more detail the changes: https://www.mapperleygolfclub.org/world-handicap-system-2020/

WHS has its own website, providing info and links: https://www.whs.com/



Finally, please do not hesitate to stop me if you have any questions about WHS. I have deliberately made this initial letter somewhat vague, as the fine details are still under discussion, but I will answer any questions to the best of my ability. I can also be emailed at *********. I promise to get back to you with any answers or pointers I can provide.


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## rulefan (Jan 22, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			I'm off to a WHS meeting this afternoon run by my local county union....should be interesting...will ask about the cut off date.
		
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A question that will stymie them is:

CONGU will calculate the Course Handicap as 
*CH = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating / 113)*
Whilst the rest of the world (Europe, US, Canada, Australia, South Africa ...) will use 
*CH = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating / 113) + (Course Rating - Par)*
Why ?

I haven't been able to get a comprehensible answer yet.


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## IanMcC (Jan 22, 2020)

CONGU will calculate the Course Handicap as
*CH = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating / 113)*


One thing that I am still not 100% sure on. If it is a singles comp, does the solution to the above formula have to be multiplied by 0.95? This would mean anyone 20 handicap or over would have a different Course Handicap. maybe I picked something up incorrectly.


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## OLgolfer (Jan 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



			A question that will stymie them is:

CONGU will calculate the Course Handicap as
*CH = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating / 113)*
Whilst the rest of the world (Europe, US, Canada, Australia, South Africa ...) will use
*CH = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating / 113) + (Course Rating - Par)*
Why ?

I haven't been able to get a comprehensible answer yet.
		
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This is crazy and really doesn't make sense why congu would do something different. In an effort to create a uniform system, this breaks against that.

Working out the course handicap for the 3 mens tees at my place makes a massive difference depending which method is used! Back tees I get 12 shots with congu method, and 15 with the rest of the world. The forward tees I get 11 shots with congu and 9 with the rest of the world.


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## Springveldt (Jan 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



			A question that will stymie them is:

CONGU will calculate the Course Handicap as
*CH = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating / 113)*
Whilst the rest of the world (Europe, US, Canada, Australia, South Africa ...) will use
*CH = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating / 113) + (Course Rating - Par)*
Why ?

I haven't been able to get a comprehensible answer yet.
		
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Found this on the interwebs, don't know if it's changed since it was posted. Surely if the rest of the world are using (course rating - par) we should be doing the same? That's a massive difference, I know for my course that's 1.1 extra.


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## rulefan (Jan 22, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			CONGU will calculate the Course Handicap as
*CH = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating / 113)*


One thing that I am still not 100% sure on. If it is a singles comp, does the solution to the above formula have to be multiplied by 0.95? This would mean anyone 20 handicap or over would have a different Course Handicap. maybe I picked something up incorrectly.
		
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The formula above only gives the *Course Handicap*. To get the *Playing Handicap* you have to adjust for the *Handicap Allowance*. 
eg 95% for individual medal or stableford
100% for individual match
85% for 4ball stroke/stableford
95% for 4ball match


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## rulefan (Jan 22, 2020)

Springveldt said:



			Found this on the interwebs, don't know if it's changed since it was posted. Surely if the rest of the world are using (course rating - par) we should be doing the same? That's a massive difference, I know for my course that's 1.1 extra.






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CONGU has not changed. One of the issues is that many courses don't change the par for different tees on the same hole. eg because the whites are a 475 yard par 5, the club has not made the yellows a par 4 when the length is 395 yards. The CR-Par is supposed (?) to help those countries that rarely play stableford to get to grips with net double bogey.

Further, your handicap score (ie Stroke Differential) is measured against the (slope adjusted) Course Rating not Par.
SD = (113 / Slope Rating) x (Gross Score - Course Rating - Playing Conditions Calculation). No mention of Par.


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## Springveldt (Jan 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



			CONGU has not changed. One of the issues is that many courses don't change the par for different tees on the same hole. eg because the whites are a 475 yard par 5, the club has not made the yellows a par 4 when the length is 395 yards. The CR-Par is supposed (?) to help those countries that rarely play stableford to get to grips with net double bogey.

Further, your handicap score (ie Stroke Differential) is measured against the (slope adjusted) Course Rating not Par.
SD = (113 / Slope Rating) x (Gross Score - Course Rating - Playing Conditions Calculation). No mention of Par.
		
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As you say, your handicap index is measured against the course rating, par is effectively obsolete for handicap purposes. Still a strange decision though as it's not consistent and the whole point of this handicap change is for consistency.


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## IanMcC (Jan 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The formula above only gives the *Course Handicap*. To get the *Playing Handicap* you have to adjust for the *Handicap Allowance*.
eg 95% for individual medal or stableford
100% for individual match
85% for 4ball stroke/stableford
95% for 4ball match
		
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Thanks again, rulefan. 
This is going to make the matrix on the first tee quite complex, if the full gamut of information is given. I know that for a 4BBB at the moment, people do the 90% difference thing quite easily, but I think under WHS people would want to read off their Handicap Index directly and see their Playing Handicap in text right next to it. Any matrix I have seen on the continent is printed this way. With the vagaries involved here, I feel the matrix needs to just give the Course Handicap, and text should be added to the bottom explaining the percentages above. Anyone got any better ideas? I know that the software will produce an accurate Playing Handicap in the pro shop, but this is not always practical. (4BBB Match play knockouts, with a late tee time after the shop has closed, for example.)
Does the United States have these differences at the moment? If so, how does your matrix look on the first tee?


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## rulefan (Jan 22, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Does the United States have these differences at the moment? If so, how does your matrix look on the first tee?
		
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I'm not in the US but as far as I know they still have a straightforward HI to CH conversion board. I can't why see a 85%, 90%, 95% handicap conversion couldn't be on the scorecard as they often used to be.




			re 4BBB Match play knockouts, with a late tee time after the shop has closed, for example.)
		
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I'm sure the ISVs will be producing apps for your phone.


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## JohnnyDee (Jan 22, 2020)

Oh heck! What have I started here? 

As is so often the case with golfing authorities and rules - it's all as clear as mud. 

I'm sure before the kick-in date arrives all the wrinkles will have been ironed out, but for now and as thankfully I'm just a simple foot soldier these days, I shall just start bunging the cards in come March and hope it all works like clockwork come October / November.

Where's the bar? My head hurts.


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## nickjdavis (Jan 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



			A question that will stymie them is:

CONGU will calculate the Course Handicap as
*CH = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating / 113)*
Whilst the rest of the world (Europe, US, Canada, Australia, South Africa ...) will use
*CH = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating / 113) + (Course Rating - Par)*
Why ?

I haven't been able to get a comprehensible answer yet.
		
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Interesting....I'm pretty certain they quoted the second formula for calculation of Course Handicap!!!

It certainly drew gasps and looks of utter bewilderment when it came up on the screen.


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## rulefan (Jan 22, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Interesting....I'm pretty certain they quoted the second formula for calculation of Course Handicap!!!

It certainly drew gasps and looks of utter bewilderment when it came up on the screen.
		
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Who did the presentation? The County or a club member? They must have been using the wrong slideshow. I did a County presentation last Friday and am looking at the England Golf powerpoint show now. (CR-Par) is not in the formula.


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## mefromhere (Jan 22, 2020)

Does anyone know what the pro-rata formula is for those who don't have 20 rounds in the last 2 years is please?


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## IainP (Jan 23, 2020)

JohnnyDee said:



			......

Apologies if all this has previously been posted but I was unable to find it.

There's a change a-comin' 

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Sorry JD, that did make me smile, thought we'd had almost as many WHS threads as Brexit threads! 😉😁

Still, clearly there is plenty of mileage in it, and it's only January 👍


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## duncan mackie (Jan 23, 2020)

mefromhere said:



			Does anyone know what the pro-rata formula is for those who don't have 20 rounds in the last 2 years is please?
		
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Following your first 54 holes worth of scores your handicap index will be allocated, then each time you add a new score it will be recalculated using an adjusted calculation to give you an Index equivalent to that of the Best 8 from 20 principle. Further information will follow later...

Basically the precise formulae hasn't been published, and might not be! It could be as simple as populating the system with 8 x initial allocation and letting it run from there.

In the same way the transitional calculation details haven't been published (nor the 2 year cut off specified) and may, or may not, involve a weighted average (by number of scores), simple average, etc

The good news is that you will need to need to know - your handicap index will always be what's published on the CDH each morning, the end.


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## rulefan (Jan 23, 2020)

mefromhere said:



			Does anyone know what the pro-rata formula is for those who don't have 20 rounds in the last 2 years is please?
		
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As for an initial handicap allocation. Using CSS for the differential


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## OLgolfer (Jan 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			As for an initial handicap allocation. Using CSS for the differential
		
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So going backwards for the 20 rounds will they adjust the scores based on slope etc, or just take the gross scores? Does that make sense?


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## rulefan (Jan 23, 2020)

OLgolfer said:



			So going backwards for the 20 rounds will they adjust the scores based on slope etc, or just take the gross scores? Does that make sense?
		
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They will take slope into account.
They will first determine the WHS Course Handicap for the round using slope and then calculate the WHS differential by 'de-sloping'.
Basically as if WHS was in force on the day.
But instead of using a PCC adjustment is uses the CSS originally applicable for the round


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## duncan mackie (Jan 23, 2020)

OLgolfer said:



			So going backwards for the 20 rounds will they adjust the scores based on slope etc, or just take the gross scores? Does that make sense?
		
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The question makes sense but the answer would quickly become a chicken and egg argument if they went beyond the existing net differential and associated handicap records.


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## Siolag (Jan 23, 2020)

Sorry if this has been covered, but is there a minimum number of rounds that are required in a year under the new system? I haven't seen anything.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 23, 2020)

Siolag said:



			Sorry if this has been covered, but is there a minimum number of rounds that are required in a year under the new system? I haven't seen anything.
		
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No.

There isn't a minimum number currently either; only rules around the concept of a competition status, which may, or may not have any relevance to the competitions you enter! WHS doesn't have that, or categories.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			They will take slope into account.
They will first determine the WHS Course Handicap for the round using slope and then calculate the WHS differential by 'de-sloping'.
Basically as if WHS was in force on the day.
But instead of using a PCC adjustment is uses the CSS originally applicable for the round
		
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This sounds like madness - at what point do you establish a handicap index to base the slope figures for your subsequent calculations in respect of each player?
Surely slope is on both sides of the equation and can be ignored for the purposes of the past?


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## nickjdavis (Jan 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Who did the presentation? The County or a club member? They must have been using the wrong slideshow. I did a County presentation last Friday and am looking at the England Golf powerpoint show now. (CR-Par) is not in the formula.
		
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County.

The presentation document should be shared with attendees in the next few days. i'll check to see if my memory wasnt playing tricks on me when I get it.


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## Siolag (Jan 23, 2020)

duncan mackie said:



			No.

There isn't a minimum number currently either; only rules around the concept of a competition status, which may, or may not have any relevance to the competitions you enter! WHS doesn't have that, or categories.
		
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Thanks for that. I have a (c) on HowdidIdo so presumably that's sufficient for any comps I play in? I fully expect to play in most of my clubs medals this year and therefore will have no issues with keeping that status.


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## rulefan (Jan 23, 2020)

duncan mackie said:



			This sounds like madness -
*(1)* at what point do you establish a handicap index to base the slope figures for your subsequent calculations in respect of each player?
*(2)* Surely slope is on both sides of the equation and can be ignored for the purposes of the past?
		
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*(1)* The starting point for the transition calculation is the 20th oldest record in the CDH (or if you haven't got 20, the oldest there is). A handicap index is established after three scores have been processed (see table in post #28)

The system takes that score as if you haven't got a handicap and calculates a Score Differential. ie SD = (113/Slope) x (Gross - (CR - PCC)) (NB (CR - PCC) is CSS)
It then does that for the next two oldest. After 3 scores an 'initial' Handicap Index is allocated according to the table.

The next score in turn is then processed (and sloped) using the (now calculateable) Course Handicap. CH = HI x (Slope / 113). The Score Differential is determined as above (including de-sloping).
Each newer score is processed in turn and the player's Handicap Index adjusted as appropriate according to the table or the average of the best 8.

*(2) *Sloping and de-sloping is necessary because CH is calculated using Slope but HI needs the score to be de-sloped.


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## rulefan (Jan 23, 2020)

Siolag said:



			Thanks for that. I have a (c) on HowdidIdo so presumably that's sufficient for any comps I play in? I fully expect to play in most of my clubs medals this year and therefore will have no issues with keeping that status.
		
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You won't in fact keep it as it goes completely in November


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## JohnnyDee (Jan 23, 2020)

IainP said:



			Sorry JD, that did make me smile, thought we'd had almost as many WHS threads as Brexit threads! 😉😁

Still, clearly there is plenty of mileage in it, and it's only January 👍
		
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I thought there must have been but I haven't been on here much of late. I may have used the wrong search terms it seems. Honest.  

Mind you and in my defence M'lud, it was because we got an email from the club after a very long silence that I posted.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



*(1)* The starting point for the transition calculation is the 20th oldest record in the CDH (or if you haven't got 20, the oldest there is). A handicap index is establishes after three scores have been processed (see table in post #28)

The system takes that score as if you haven't got a handicap and calculates a Score Differential. ie SD = (113/Slope) x (Gross - (CR - PCC)) (NB (CR - PCC) is CSS)
It then does that for the next two oldest. After 3 scores an 'initial' Handicap Index is allocated according to the table.

The next score in turn is then processed (and sloped) using the (now calculateable) Course Handicap. CH = HI x (Slope / 113). The Score Differential is determined as above (including de-sloping).
Each newer score is processed in turn and the player's Handicap Index adjusted as appropriate according to the table or the average of the best 8.

*(2) *Sloping and de-sloping is necessary because CH is calculated using Slope but HI needs the score to be de-sloped.
		
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Thank you for that detailed explanation.

Obviously going through a complete restructure of the last 20 has implications regarding the question previously discussed 're a 2 year cut off. Having reviewed all of the various documents from the last 18months I can see where EG have continually referenced a 2 year period, but in the context of this calculation that has massive ramifications. As you are aware the average number of Q scores on the handicap records for those with current handicaps is, shall we say, low.  Using the above process with a starting point of 2018, say, and basing it on a total of 6 scores will produce a very different result from that produced from a full 20 (that may go back 6 or more years).
Another issue that we will certainly face is that we do not have slope ratings for all ofnthe tees upon which historic scores are based - I cannot believe that we are alone in this! Clearly we could fudge that, but then again why go through such a detailed process with more fudge data? I say more because the application of a CH stableford score without knowing whether it would, or would not have resulted in a different score is, inherently, fudge (the general practice is for people to blob a hole rather than hole out for 0 points leaving uncertainty as to the impact of additional shots in practice).

Sorry to be a bit negative.

Anyway, I will run a few sample calculations to compare, as best I can given the above, the system output with a simple use of the existing handicap and associated SD over the last 20 as well as the true implications to applying a cut off and the system calls. Should be fun 🤗


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## sunshine (Jan 23, 2020)

I know many people who stop caring about their score when they know they aren't going to make buffer. People who carry on playing but effectively NR at the point they know the round is gone and don't keep track of their score after that point.

Under the CONGU system, if you're a 5 handicapper it doesn't matter if you shoot +7 or +27, the 0.1 increase is the same. The new system looks like it will change that as +27 will affect the average a lot more than +7! Are there any measures to normalise rogue scores (other than best 8 in 20 principle)?

I know many people who play most of their golf without a card in their hand, so will have a lot less than 20 "official" scores in the last two years.


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## USER1999 (Jan 23, 2020)

sunshine said:



			I know many people who stop caring about their score when they know they aren't going to make buffer. People who carry on playing but effectively NR at the point they know the round is gone and don't keep track of their score after that point.

Under the CONGU system, if you're a 5 handicapper it doesn't matter if you shoot +7 or +27, the 0.1 increase is the same. The new system looks like it will change that as +27 will affect the average a lot more than +7! Are there any measures to normalise rogue scores (other than best 8 in 20 principle)?

I know many people who play most of their golf without a card in their hand, so will have a lot less than 20 "official" scores in the last two years.
		
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The net double rule will still apply, so a 0 will be a net double for h/cap purposes.


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## woofers (Jan 23, 2020)

sunshine said:



			I know many people who stop caring about their score when they know they aren't going to make buffer. People who carry on playing but effectively NR at the point they know the round is gone and don't keep track of their score after that point.

Under the CONGU system, if you're a 5 handicapper it doesn't matter if you shoot +7 or +27, the 0.1 increase is the same. The new system looks like it will change that as +27 will affect the average a lot more than +7! Are there any measures to normalise rogue scores (other than best 8 in 20 principle)?

I know many people who play most of their golf without a card in their hand, so will have a lot less than 20 "official" scores in the last two years.
		
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I believe there are (will be) "soft caps" and "hard caps" to prevent undue fluctuations in handicaps.


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## rulefan (Jan 23, 2020)

duncan mackie said:



			Using the above process with a starting point of 2018, say, and basing it on a total of 6 scores will produce a very different result from that produced from a full 20 (that may go back 6 or more years).
		
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I think that scores from 6 year ago would have little relevance today. It has been suggested to me that they *may* go back further. But if you think of the Annual Review, even with half a dozen cards this year, I suspect most handicap committees will not go looking backwards for scores. 
The transition file will be accessible to handicap committees to make adjustments if they feel it necessary.
But remember, the transition process is designed to produce WHS relevant handicaps not CONGU copies. Particularly to adjust for slope.


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## rulefan (Jan 23, 2020)

sunshine said:



			The new system looks like it will change that as +27 will affect the average a lot more than +7! Are there any measures to normalise rogue scores (other than best 8 in 20 principle)?
		
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A +27 score is very unlikely to appear in the *average of the best 8 *
There will be a *Cap* process which will protect against sudden increase. 



			I know many people who play most of their golf without a card in their hand, so will have a lot less than 20 "official" scores in the last two years.
		
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So their handicap (however calculated) will be pretty meaningless anyway


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## rulefan (Jan 23, 2020)

duncan mackie said:



			Another issue that we will certainly face is that we do not have slope ratings for all ofnthe tees upon which historic scores are based - I cannot believe that we are alone in this! 




			My understanding is that the results of the recent rating excercise, CR (actually CSS is used) and Slope values will be used. However the SSS is in the stored record so if it changes it will know the course has been rerated but the slope won't be known. I guess they would use the 125 for courses not yet rated. If it is thought to be worth dealing with, I'm sure they will have invented a 'close enough' algorithm. IMO any fudge will not materially affect the results. The most significant part of the transition calculation, particularly for the mid to high handicapper, is the introduction of slope.
		
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## Swango1980 (Jan 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			You won't in fact keep it as it goes completely in November 

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With removing the "c" from a handicap under WHS, will a player be required to submit a minimum number of cards to allow them to use their handicap in competitions? Or, could they get a handicap, and then never submit a qualifying score again, but simply go around and play in Open competitions? If the conditions of individual competitions are that, a player must have submitted a certain number of cards over a year, how would they know what a player has done or not done over the last year? Obviously, at the moment, organisers of competitions can simply prohibit players from playing, or at least winning prizes, if they do not have "c" with their handicap.


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## rulefan (Jan 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			With removing the "c" from a handicap under WHS, will a player be required to submit a minimum number of cards to allow them to use their handicap in competitions? Or, could they get a handicap, and then never submit a qualifying score again, but simply go around and play in Open competitions? If the conditions of individual competitions are that, a player must have submitted a certain number of cards over a year, how would they know what a player has done or not done over the last year? Obviously, at the moment, organisers of competitions can simply prohibit players from playing, or at least winning prizes, if they do not have "c" with their handicap.
		
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There won't be a restriction built in to the WHS. However, competition administrators will be able to check players' records via the equivalent of the CDH (much as they can now).
The Rules of Golf provide for the Terms of Competition to specify restrictions and/or limits on the handicaps eligible for entry or use in a competition.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			There won't be a restriction built in to the WHS. However, competition administrators will be able to check players' records via the equivalent of the CDH (much as they can now).
The Rules of Golf provide for the Terms of Competition to specify restrictions and/or limits on the handicaps eligible for entry or use in a competition.
		
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I guess that would technically require the competition organiser to go through the records of every single competitor to ensure they meet the terms of competition? Whereas now you'd simply scan everyone's handicap to see if anyone was missing the "c"


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## rulefan (Jan 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I guess that would technically require the competition organiser to go through the records of every single competitor to ensure they meet the terms of competition? Whereas now you'd simply scan everyone's handicap to see if anyone was missing the "c"
		
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What do you do now? How do you currently 'scan' all the players handicaps?
I don't know what the mechanism will be but currently you have to find the individual in the CDH using his ID. This not only shows his 'c' or ' ' status but allows you to see his playing record. I don't see the facility being any different, except there won't be a 'c' to see.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			What do you do now? How do you currently 'scan' all the players handicaps?
I don't know what the mechanism will be but currently you have to find the individual in the CDH using his ID. This not only shows his 'c' or ' ' status but allows you to see his playing record. I don't see the facility being any different, except there won't be a 'c' to see.
		
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If it is a club competition, the competition secretary can automatically see if anyone has submitted the required 3 cards or not, simply by seeing if there is a "c" next to their handicap. However, he doesnt need to even do anything, as the comp is set up to automatically put non "c" players to bottom of leaderboard, regardless of score. He certainly never needs to view everybody's handicap record.

For open competitions, not sure. But, if "c" status is required, I'm sure it's fairly straightforward to simply look out for the "c" rather than looking at their entire record for last year.

Under WHS, if it is a necessity to go through the full playing record, I'd imagine that would be quite annoying. Unless there was a mechanism to state what playing record was required, such as 3 comps in last year, and then the system will just highlight anyone that doesnt meet the criteria


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## rulefan (Jan 23, 2020)

Re a Club comp. Clubs will still be using the same front end ISV (ClubV1, IG, HM etc) to run competitions so there will be no difference in future. Remember CONGU is not concerned with the internal requirement of clubs. Hopefully, your ISV will provide some selectable filter based on no of scores or handicap limit etc. 
WHS is not used for running competitions and does not recognise the concept of status (nor will CONGU).

Re Opens. The same as above for competition management but the comp secretary will normally check the status of a player when they send an entry application in. They will presumably look up an external system (CDH currently, WHS in future) and either accept or reject their entry. The entry form will of course contain the entry qualification requirements. 

Having done the job for many years I don't see an issue.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 23, 2020)

I'm dubious to be honest. In the current system, why is there a need for a "c" status on a handicap? I presumed it was to ensure players entered the minimum number of qualifiers, thus keeping their handicap up to date. If not, they lose that "c" status, which effectively would flag this to competition organisers.

So, under WHS, this is no longer required. Why, if it has been before? Does this mean I could get a WHS handicap of, say 25, and then never submit a card ever again, but theoretically enter non qualifying opens? Yes, the organisers could put some limit on to how many comps a player has played in last year, but it would seem to be a bit of an arbitrary decision to make. Do they choose 3? Perhaps 5, 6, 7 or whatever they fancy. But, they'll still have to trawl through every entry and view their score entries, unless like you say, a filter is added to the software that they can customise for their competition. 

Note: I didn't realise I could currently view players score records from other clubs using CDH on Club V1, except I can get their CDH number on CDH lookup if adding them as new member. I've had to sometimes contact England Golf to get a players details if they don't pop up at all. It would be nice if I could get a full record of any player from any club when WHS is in play.


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## rulefan (Jan 24, 2020)

ClubV1 is not 'attached' to the CDH other than to transmit scores to to it. It only holds records for those players on your system. ClubV1 is only one of a number of ISVs (Independent Software Providers) which provide competition management systems to clubs. It does not hold the national database. If a player is not on your club system you cannot see any of his data unless you have access to the CDH. To see a player's scoring record you have to be an authorised official of your club and have permission from England Golf.
Incidentally, 'c' status is only a CONGU feature. It is/was not a feature elsewhere.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 24, 2020)

rulefan said:



			ClubV1 is not 'attached' to the CDH other than to transmit scores to to it. It only holds records for those players on your system. ClubV1 is only one of a number of ISVs (Independent Software Providers) which provide competition management systems to clubs. It does not hold the national database. If a player is not on your club system you cannot see any of his data unless you have access to the CDH. To see a player's scoring record you have to be an authorised official of your club and have permission from England Golf.
Incidentally, 'c' status is only a CONGU feature. It is/was not a feature elsewhere.
		
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Cheers

Interesting about CDH database. When new members have joined, occasionally I've not been able to get their CDH from them or their last club or the CDH lookup on Club V1. So, as I said, I needed to e-mail England Golf who did it for me. They were helpful, and asked if I needed help getting any other CDH numbers.

However, from what you say, should someone at our club be able to have direct access to the database, rather than having to go to England Golf? I know we don't, as I'm handicap sec and the only other in charge of admin is the comp sec who doesnt have access.

The "c" status issue is not something I've ever really thought about in terms of WHS, and as I don't run comps not a concern for me directly. It just interests me as to whether applying various entry conditions will be as straightforward, or will the fact the player is no longer responsible to submit a minimum number or rounds annually simply result in most comps allowing anyone to enter so long as they've had a handicap some point in their life.

If a player has a handicap, quits for a year, or 5 years, then returns, what will happen with their handicap? as it was or recalculated?


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## rulefan (Jan 24, 2020)

Someone at your club should have access to the CDH. Apart from anything else, how do you check the handicaps of open competition entrants? Further, clubs have been asked to 'cleanse' their player records and match them with the CDH in anticipation of WHS (details on the EG website).

If a player is no longer a member of an affiliated club his handicap lapses automatically. However, WHS has said that scoring records should be retained to assist with allocating a handicap should the player return or join another club. It doesn't specify if the record should be held by the club or the WHS cloud. The handicap given to a returning player will depend on the circumstances (eg how long he has been out of the game) as now. His ID will remain with him forever.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 24, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm dubious to be honest. In the current system, why is there a need for a "c" status on a handicap? I presumed it was to ensure players entered the minimum number of qualifiers, thus keeping their handicap up to date. If not, they lose that "c" status, which effectively would flag this to competition organisers.

So, under WHS, this is no longer required. Why, if it has been before?
		
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I think a little history might help you.

Under the WHS implementation just about everywhere else the open scores you reference will form part of the players handicap record; instant non issue.

Our (c) came about through the perceived political incorrectness of the previous (i) designation; which was fundamentally more accurate in what it represented! How clubs chose to implement their competition policy had more to do with their perceptions than any meaningful attributes the designation had. We don't require members to have it for most strokeplay competitions as an example - we have other requirements for some as well.

I agree with your principle that it was a simple test to apply for entry; easy to explain, understand and check. It was fundamentally meaningless though,  it's going and, at some point, scores from all competitions will find their way onto a players record - has to happen here as well for their to be any integrity in the system.

The alternative is that if you wish to consider NQ open comps as merely a bit of fun you remove the prize tables that attract those golfers (sic) for whom the primary purpose is to win! Sorry for repeating that point.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 24, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Someone at your club should have access to the CDH. Apart from anything else, how do you check the handicaps of open competition entrants? Further, clubs have been asked to 'cleanse' their player records and match them with the CDH in anticipation of WHS (details on the EG website).

If a player is no longer a member of an affiliated club his handicap lapses automatically. However, WHS has said that scoring records should be retained to assist with allocating a handicap should the player return or join another club. It doesn't specify if the record should be held by the club or the WHS cloud. The handicap given to a returning player will depend on the circumstances (eg how long he has been out of the game) as now. His ID will remain with him forever.
		
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Thanks

Our club doesn't run Open competitions, so it is not something we've had to routinely check. The only time I need to find a CDH is when a new member joins and has been a member of another club. Frustratingly, I rely on them to let me know they've been a member somewhere else, otherwise I can only assume they are brand new to the system. I've no doubt that this has resulted in multiple CDH's for one player over the years (even before I became handicap sec last year). We are a relatively small club compared to many others. We have an owner (a non-golfer), and then the Committee just tries to run things for members as best we can. But we are not a members club, so how the course or business is run overall has nothing to do with us. Unfortunately, I've never been made aware that at least one of us needs to have access to the CDH database, we just sort of start where the last guy finished off. So, should I just contact England Golf to see how we can get access?


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## Swango1980 (Jan 24, 2020)

duncan mackie said:



			I think a little history might help you.

Under the WHS implementation just about everywhere else the open scores you reference will form part of the players handicap record; instant non issue.

Our (c) came about through the perceived political incorrectness of the previous (i) designation; which was fundamentally more accurate in what it represented! How clubs chose to implement their competition policy had more to do with their perceptions than any meaningful attributes the designation had. We don't require members to have it for most strokeplay competitions as an example - we have other requirements for some as well.

I agree with your principle that it was a simple test to apply for entry; easy to explain, understand and check. It was fundamentally meaningless though,  it's going and, at some point, scores from all competitions will find their way onto a players record - has to happen here as well for their to be any integrity in the system.

The alternative is that if you wish to consider NQ open comps as merely a bit of fun you remove the prize tables that attract those golfers (sic) for whom the primary purpose is to win! Sorry for repeating that point.
		
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Thanks

So, in a nutshell, the player will have no responsibility to post scores once they have a handicap, if they choose not to. But will still have a valid handicap to compete in the same way a golfer who submits many cards (assuming that an arbitrary condition of competition hasn't been set in which a certain number of scores need to have been posted) ? I guess the Opens I am talking about, are the ones in which they are Four Ball type comps, where the best 2 scores count or Scramble type format. These won't be able to be used for handicap purposes, and I know that there are always complaints when it is discovered a few "bandit" types do the circuit with nice juicy handicaps and always seem to be in the prizes (which are often decent to try and get people to enter in the first place). I know that any system can be manipulated by these players, but I guess ensuring they had "c" status art the very least was a simple method of trying to put one hurdle in their way.

In my experience, "relaxed" comps that have not required a "c" status have usually resulted in ridiculous scores by relatively high handicappers. The word in the bar after is that these groups are known and always do well. I simply do not enter them anymore, and don't enter comps that have no such restriction. As I said, I'm not directly involved in running these, so maybe it will ultimately be a non-issue. But, I'd be interested to hear from various people who run these Open type competitions frequently and whether they think there could be any issues with removing "c" status completely.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 24, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Thanks

So, in a nutshell, the player will have no responsibility to post scores once they have a handicap, if they choose not to. But will still have a valid handicap to compete in the same way a golfer who submits many cards (assuming that an arbitrary condition of competition hasn't been set in which a certain number of scores need to have been posted) ? I guess the Opens I am talking about, are the ones in which they are Four Ball type comps, where the best 2 scores count or Scramble type format. These won't be able to be used for handicap purposes, and I know that there are always complaints when it is discovered a few "bandit" types do the circuit with nice juicy handicaps and always seem to be in the prizes (which are often decent to try and get people to enter in the first place). I know that any system can be manipulated by these players, but I guess ensuring they had "c" status art the very least was a simple method of trying to put one hurdle in their way.

In my experience, "relaxed" comps that have not required a "c" status have usually resulted in ridiculous scores by relatively high handicappers. The word in the bar after is that these groups are known and always do well. I simply do not enter them anymore, and don't enter comps that have no such restriction. As I said, I'm not directly involved in running these, so maybe it will ultimately be a non-issue. But, I'd be interested to hear from various people who run these Open type competitions frequently and whether they think there could be any issues with removing "c" status completely.
		
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1. Under many of the other WHS  authorities 4 ball comps, and matchplay rounds, will form part of the handicap record.
2. Our Q stroke play comps are far from relaxed, they are the same as everyone else's monthly medals. We don't require c status to enter because it's meaningless. We do have other meaningful to us eligibility requirements on some competitions. these Will  continue.
3. I agree with you that the absence of the current c indicator will be an inconvience to some competition organisers going forwards, but, like the Ireland open circuit, they will find solutions that suit their needs.

I appreciate the emotion of your open entry issue but the reality is that returning 3 supplemental cards played with a mate at some point in a calendar year is fundamentally meaningless in this context.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 24, 2020)

duncan mackie said:



			1. Under many of the other WHS  authorities 4 ball comps, and matchplay rounds, will form part of the handicap record.
2. Our Q stroke play comps are far from relaxed, they are the same as everyone else's monthly medals. We don't require c status to enter because it's meaningless. We do have other meaningful to us eligibility requirements on some competitions. these Will  continue.
3. I agree with you that the absence of the current c indicator will be an inconvience to some competition organisers going forwards, but, like the Ireland open circuit, they will find solutions that suit their needs.

I appreciate the emotion of your open entry issue but the reality is that returning 3 supplemental cards played with a mate at some point in a calendar year is fundamentally meaningless in this context.
		
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I agree, three supplementary cards are no indication whatsoever that the golfer played those rounds (or tried to) to the best of their ability, so it can still be manipulated. Although, given that they've had to submit them, I guess it may put them on the handicap secretary's radar at the very least. But yes, it simply looks like the organiser's will need to look for other methods of trying to ensure golfers have a "fair" handicap.

Just in relation to your Point 1 above, although WHS authorities will allow 4 ball and match play comps to be used for handicap, this will not be the case in England? At any rate, this leads me to another pet hate of mine. I don't agree that Match Play or 4-ball scores should be used. Yes, when great scores from these events are achieved, I'd like to find some method of being able to look at handicap. So, I understand this is one way of doing it, I'm just not convinced it is the right way. Problem is, when a player picks up well before holing out, it becomes a bit Mickey Mouse when you simply make up a score for that hole. In those type of events, a player could pick up on many holes. And not just if they play badly. They could play very well, but simply pick up on many holes because their opponent had a disaster, or players in their 4-ball team had already scored the points on that hole so no need to putt out. Seems like it could be easier to manipulate handicap as well. For example, you play a great match, but if you lose one or two holes along the way, just stick down a nett double bogey (even if you would have had par, but your opponent had already sank nett eagle or birdie). So, ultimately you'd have submitted a higher score than you would have done in reality, and from what I've read there is no need for anyone to sign for it to validate it? But, this is a separate issue anyway, and been discussed by many on other threads.


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## rulefan (Jan 24, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Unfortunately, I've never been made aware that at least one of us needs to have access to the CDH database, we just sort of start where the last guy finished off. So, should I just contact England Golf to see how we can get access?
		
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Straight answer - yes.
Re using 'c' as a filter to eliminate bandits. IMO it is almost worth less than useless. Most ' ' status players are naturally going up because of age or time. They are more likely to play over their handicap when they do play.


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## rulefan (Jan 24, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			.
		
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Re Opens
I have just had it confirmed that a query by an authorised committee member of an away player's record will show his Index, number of round played 'recently' and date last played.
If there is any doubt, the player could have (or sign in to) an app which would allow him to show his full playing record if the organiser wants to go that far.


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## upsidedown (Jan 24, 2020)

I like the way New Zealand are very transparent with "Players record"
Below is a link to a player who I picked as he won the last Open at my old club out there 

https://www.golf.co.nz/MyGolf/Scores.aspx?memberid=457333&Code=359524522


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## rulefan (Jan 24, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I know that there are always complaints when it is discovered a few "bandit" types do the circuit with nice juicy handicaps and always seem to be in the prizes (which are often decent to try and get people to enter in the first place). I know that any system can be manipulated by these players, but I guess ensuring they had "c" status art the very least was a simple method of trying to put one hurdle in their way.
		
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Clubs in this area have an arrangement where we inform the others about potential bandits. If banditry is established, they are refused entry to all our opens and their club secretary is informed.
Incidentally, are you aware of the England Golf directive that players must report all away 4BBB and Am/Ams to their home club. During the last couple years a number of players have had their handicaps reduced or even suspended as a result of complaints and investigations.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 24, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Clubs in this area have an arrangement where we inform the others about potential bandits. If banditry is established, they are refused entry to all our opens and their club secretary is informed.
Incidentally, are you aware of the England Golf directive that players must report all away 4BBB and Am/Ams to their home club. During the last couple years a number of players have had their handicaps reduced or even suspended as a result of complaints and investigations.
		
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I wasn't aware of this directive. I've always felt it is a great idea that, for any Open event, each organiser send the scores back to the home clubs (although, I guess this may be a bit of a pig with postage or scanning and e-mailing, especially if a team consists of players from different clubs). It would be great to see a single system, perhaps, where organisers can plug in scores into a database which links into each players club, and then their home club is automatically informed. If a pattern of very good results is observed, then handicap secretaries can make adjustments they feel necessary.

I know that, even with a central system, a lot of organisers wouldn't want to go through the hassle of entering all the scores, but if enough did it, at least it would still catch out the bandits. Or, if it could all be linked to the touchscreens, and get the players to enter the scores like they do in normal club comps.

Last season, I received to Open scores from one club, so either only one club tends to do this in our area, or it is the only club in which any of our players played in that does it.


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## upsidedown (Jan 24, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I wasn't aware of this directive. I've always felt it is a great idea that, for any Open event, each organiser send the scores back to the home clubs (although, I guess this may be a bit of a pig with postage or scanning and e-mailing, especially if a team consists of players from different clubs). It would be great to see a single system, perhaps, where organisers can plug in scores into a database which links into each players club, and then their home club is automatically informed. If a pattern of very good results is observed, then handicap secretaries can make adjustments they feel necessary.

I know that, even with a central system, a lot of organisers wouldn't want to go through the hassle of entering all the scores, but if enough did it, at least it would still catch out the bandits. Or, if it could all be linked to the touchscreens, and get the players to enter the scores like they do in normal club comps.

Last season, I received to Open scores from one club, so either only one club tends to do this in our area, or it is the only club in which any of our players played in that does it.
		
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That's exactly what happens in NZ , course you've played will input your score onto the central system  You can see from the link I posted  that his scores from 6 different courses have been recorded


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## rulefan (Jan 24, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I wasn't aware of this directive. I've always felt it is a great idea that, for any Open event, each organiser send the scores back to the home clubs (although, I guess this may be a bit of a pig with postage or scanning and e-mailing, especially if a team consists of players from different clubs). It would be great to see a single system, perhaps, where organisers can plug in scores into a database which links into each players club, and then their home club is automatically informed. If a pattern of very good results is observed, then handicap secretaries can make adjustments they feel necessary.

I know that, even with a central system, a lot of organisers wouldn't want to go through the hassle of entering all the scores, but if enough did it, at least it would still catch out the bandits. Or, if it could all be linked to the touchscreens, and get the players to enter the scores like they do in normal club comps.

Last season, I received to Open scores from one club, so either only one club tends to do this in our area, or it is the only club in which any of our players played in that does it.
		
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Of course, the scores from open qualifying comps (ie individual) are transmitted to the player's home club automatically. It is only BB and am/am that there need be any manual intervention. Many clubs only send details for prize winners.

All ISV systems I know of provide for open comps and allow players to enter their own scores on the PSI terminals


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## Swango1980 (Jan 30, 2020)

Scenario: A golfer gets his handicap index to an all year low of 5.0 under WHS. He then realises there is a big comp in 4-5 weeks time. Luckily for him, he can play most days of the week, so decides to submit 20 card between now and then. The scores are terrible compared to his ability. So, although these 20 scores may result in a handicap index of 20, it only goes up to 10 due to the hard cap. 

The comp is a non qualifying type anyway, and he quite likes the fact he got an extra 5 shots (maybe more once you calculate his playing handicap). He decides he really only wants to ever play in non qualifying team open events. So, although he is stuck on an Index of 10 for 11-12 months, after that he can quickly get it to 15, then after another year to 20, etc. 

Is my understanding of WHS and the hard cap correct? if so, it is probably fairly obvious that for a player to get 15 extra shots in 3 years (more than 15 when course handicap calculated at most courses), for example, under the current system would be much trickier than WHS. If this sort of thing did happen, what power would the handicap sec have in cutting the handicap back down to around 5, and how would that impact further handicap calcs when the player submits more cards, given that you have just effectively ignored his last 20 scores? And, if the player strenuously denied cheating, and said it represents his current form, do we just say he is a liar, or wait until he shoots an unbelievable score in a comp?

It is these rapid changes that worry me as a handicap secretary. Under the current system, it's almost not a concern as a player would need to go through a significant more amount of effort for the same gains.


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## nickjdavis (Jan 30, 2020)

I wouldn't say it is much trickier under CONGU to do what you describe.

Under the current system, if I play 21 rounds where my handicap goes up 0.1 each time, I will also get another 3 shots back under the exceptional (bad) scoring rules (due to there being 3 sets of 7 consecutive 0.1s). Throw in the computer aided annual review at year end and its possible that further shots may be given back if the differentials are big enough. So 21 bad rounds under CONGU will get me at least 5.1 shots back, possibly more....so its just as easy to contrive your way to a higher handicap under CONGU.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 30, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			I wouldn't say it is much trickier under CONGU to do what you describe.

Under the current system, if I play 21 rounds where my handicap goes up 0.1 each time, I will also get another 3 shots back under the exceptional (bad) scoring rules (due to there being 3 sets of 7 consecutive 0.1s). Throw in the computer aided annual review at year end and its possible that further shots may be given back if the differentials are big enough. So 21 bad rounds under CONGU will get me at least 5.1 shots back, possibly more....so its just as easy to contrive your way to a higher handicap under CONGU.
		
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That's a bad example. To go up 5.0 under WHS takes 20 rounds. That's an increase of 5.9 in course handicap at my course. For the same increase under CONGU, it would take 59 bad scores to go in.

Furthermore you cannot use continuous review or annual review to make up the same deficit, as these rely on your handicap secretary to physically apply those increases. Do you think they would? In fact, there is general guidance (in congu manual), that recommends NOT increasing a players handicap after 7 0.1 rounds or more if they have played to buffer in last year (from memory)


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## rulefan (Jan 30, 2020)

I haven't seen any yet but I am sure there will be facilities/reports available to track/highlight suspicious scoring patterns


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## Swango1980 (Jan 30, 2020)

I



rulefan said:



			I haven't seen any yet but I am sure there will be facilities/reports available to track/highlight suspicious scoring patterns
		
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 Hope so

One great scheme. play all season as best you can to get good handicap. At end of season, between November to February (4 months), submit 20 bad rounds to get index increase of 5.0 (5.9 course handicap increase at my course). Then start next season on your nice big handicap, and start playing well again, winning many competitions, especially early season.

Clearly suspicious, but the golfer could justifiably say "I just play badly in winter as it's cold, greens bobbly, mentally hate it, etc". I can't guarantee he is lying, so I'd have to tell him he is not allowed to submit winter cards, although others can. Hmmm, will I get accused of discrimination? Tongue in cheek a little there, but it is a great way to play the system


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 30, 2020)

You must have such a great outlook on your fellow golfers - whatever system is in there will always be people who try and play the system , nothing is full proof , if people are that desperate to win they go the extreme lengths you mention then what can you do about it ? People manufactured their handicap in the old system , they will do it in the new system - it certainly doesn’t open up the field for people to go mad and get multiple shots back - suspect 99.9% have a bit more pride than that - using extreme examples to try and pick holes is a bit silly


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## Swango1980 (Jan 30, 2020)

I



Liverpoolphil said:



			You must have such a great outlook on your fellow golfers - whatever system is in there will always be people who try and play the system , nothing is full proof , if people are that desperate to win they go the extreme lengths you mention then what can you do about it ? People manufactured their handicap in the old system , they will do it in the new system - it certainly doesn’t open up the field for people to go mad and get multiple shots back - suspect 99.9% have a bit more pride than that - using extreme examples to try and pick holes is a bit silly
		
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It is interesting you criticise my outlook on fellow golfers, and then immediately go on to explain how some of our fellow golfers try and play the system. ironic.

At no point have I said what the majority of golfers will do. But, as a handicap secretary I heard to be prepared for the 0.1% that do. If you played in a competition with 100 competitors, if only 1 of those has happened to get 5-6 shots added on to their handicap over the winter, I suspect you would like some action to be taken?

Under the current system, the same player would need to hand in around 50-60 supplementary scores over winter for the same effect.


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## duncan mackie (Jan 30, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I
It is interesting you criticise my outlook on fellow golfers, and then immediately go on to explain how some of our fellow golfers try and play the system. ironic.

Under the current system, the same player would need to hand in around 50-60 supplementary scores over winter for the same effect.
		
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nothing like that many, as pointed out #70, which you then dismissed


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## Swango1980 (Jan 30, 2020)

I 



duncan mackie said:



			nothing like that many, as pointed out #70, which you then dismissed
		
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I didn't dismiss this Duncan. I addressed it precisely in the next post.

There is no way a golfer would put in 20 supplementary cards over the winter currently, and then have the handicap secretary give them the extra 3-4 shots under continuous review before the next season to match what WHS would automatically give them. If this did happen, good luck to the handicap secretary when he defends his decision.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 30, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I
It is interesting you criticise my outlook on fellow golfers, and then immediately go on to explain how some of our fellow golfers try and play the system. ironic.

At no point have I said what the majority of golfers will do. But, as a handicap secretary I heard to be prepared for the 0.1% that do. If you played in a competition with 100 competitors, if only 1 of those has happened to get 5-6 shots added on to their handicap over the winter, I suspect you would like some action to be taken?

Under the current system, the same player would need to hand in around 50-60 supplementary scores over winter for the same effect.
		
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Firstly no one is going to do what you suggest - so what exactly are you preparing for 

Secondly - what are you actually going to do if you think someone is going to try and getting more shots ? How can you prove it ? 

Been a handicap Secretary for a lot of years previously and it’s nothing but scaremongering - the same when they handicaps increased to 36 etc 

You appear to be creating scenarios in your head that just are unrealistic and trying to find the most extreme levels you can get.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 30, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Firstly no one is going to do what you suggest - so what exactly are you preparing for 

Secondly - what are you actually going to do if you think someone is going to try and getting more shots ? How can you prove it ? 

Been a handicap Secretary for a lot of years previously and it’s nothing but scaremongering - the same when they handicaps increased to 36 etc 

You appear to be creating scenarios in your head that just are unrealistic and trying to find the most extreme levels you can get.
		
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Again, you contradict yourself. You say some people play the system, yet now say nobody will do this. That's confidence. 

Secondly, you ask how can I prove it? that is EXACTLY the point I am making. I can't prove it, but if it happens what can I do???

It could well be the case a golfer does play terribly over winter, and honestly, so they could still get a big handicap increase over winter. Wouldn't necessarily take 20 cards either, as your last few rounds before winter may not have been great anyway. Even if the odd one was decent, your much higher average over winter could still result in a +5 index increase even with a few of your main season scores still in the mix.

It scares me that, those that are in favour of the WHs completely ignore the simple mathematics I have described above. I hope those in charge of implementing it have taken it more seriously, and as rulefan commented, may have at least systems in place to iron things like this out. I do not want club golfers complaining to me if others seem to be going up very quickly, and suspiciously, then expecting me to sort it out without any decent recommendations to follow


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## Liverpoolphil (Jan 30, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Again, you contradict yourself. You say some people play the system, yet now say nobody will do this. That's confidence.

Secondly, you ask how can I prove it? that is EXACTLY the point I am making. I can't prove it, but if it happens what can I do???

It could well be the case a golfer does play terribly over winter, and honestly, so they could still get a big handicap increase over winter. Wouldn't necessarily take 20 cards either, as your last few rounds before winter may not have been great anyway. Even if the odd one was decent, your much higher average over winter could still result in a +5 index increase even with a few of your main season scores still in the mix.

It scares me that, those that are in favour of the WHs completely ignore the simple mathematics I have described above. I hope those in charge of implementing it have taken it more seriously, and as rulefan commented, may have at least systems in place to iron things like this out. I do not want club golfers complaining to me if others seem to be going up very quickly, and suspiciously, then expecting me to sort it out without any decent recommendations to follow
		
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People have played the system by playing a round to get .1 back to gain a single shot before a KO or comp , or they just play the three rounds a year and then go and play opens 

No one will be putting in 20 deliberatly poor rounds just to get shots back in the manner you suggest - it’s just not going to happen so why worry


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## upsidedown (Jan 30, 2020)

From my New Zealand experience over 6 winters , the "oldies" over winter would go up due to less roll and cooler temps etc but never more than 3-4 shots , one good score in the better weather and then back to normal


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## Swango1980 (Jan 30, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			From my New Zealand experience over 6 winters , the "oldies" over winter would go up due to less roll and cooler temps etc but never more than 3-4 shots , one good score in the better weather and then back to normal
		
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Cheers, good to know from experience. 3-4 shots is still quite high, and that is presumably for honest golfers. I guess these guys are in with a shout of winning their first competition back, before their handicap goes back down?

I will recommend to our competition secretary to move the men versus seniors trophy from the start to the end of the season


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## nickjdavis (Jan 30, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I
I didn't dismiss this Duncan. I addressed it precisely in the next post.

There is no way a golfer would put in 20 supplementary cards over the winter currently, and then have the handicap secretary give them the extra 3-4 shots under continuous review before the next season to match what WHS would automatically give them. If this did happen, good luck to the handicap secretary when he defends his decision.
		
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Stop moving the goalposts...your scenario mentioned NOTHING about the time of year so your comment about not putting in cards over the winter is simply a smokescreen. The golfing season is also irrelevant....some of us play at courses where we play qualifiers and submit supplementaries all year round.

Why do you seem to assume that the protections that exist in the current CONGU mechanism wont exist under WHS? Do you really believe that a handicap secretary wont spot that a steady 5 handicap golfer who maybe plays twice a week, suddenly puts in 20 rounds in 4 weeks...all of them significantly worse than his previous form?

No one is ignoring your simple mathematics....what we are ignoring are the contrived scenarios that you are creating in order to prove your point.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 30, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			People have played the system by playing a round to get .1 back to gain a single shot before a KO or comp , or they just play the three rounds a year and then go and play opens 

No one will be putting in 20 deliberatly poor rounds just to get shots back in the manner you suggest - it’s just not going to happen so why worry
		
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Yes, some people do submit a card to go up 0.1, if they are on x.4. So, a 10% chance of them.being in a position to benefit from this. Under WHS, I could hand in 4 cards to get over 2 full shots back based on my last 20 scores personally. I'd imagine the people you talk about will he licking their lips about this.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 30, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Stop moving the goalposts...your scenario mentioned NOTHING about the time of year so your comment about not putting in cards over the winter is simply a smokescreen. The golfing season is also irrelevant....some of us play at courses where we play qualifiers and submit supplementaries all year round.

Why do you seem to assume that the protections that exist in the current CONGU mechanism wont exist under WHS? Do you really believe that a handicap secretary wont spot that a steady 5 handicap golfer who maybe plays twice a week, suddenly puts in 20 rounds in 4 weeks...all of them significantly worse than his previous form?

No one is ignoring your simple mathematics....what we are ignoring are the contrived scenarios that you are creating in order to prove your point.
		
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Did you not read my question? It was, as handicap secretary, what can I do about it? Yes, it is easy for you to point out that it would be obvious that a 5 handicapper has quickly gone up to 10. So, my question is, do I simply manually put it back to 5?


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## nickjdavis (Jan 30, 2020)

I lost the meat of your question in amongst the maths!!

I would have thought that the moment you as handicap secretary saw a sudden increase in frequency of rounds, played well outside his current ability, that you would engage with the player in question to ascertain if there was an issue that was contributing to 

1) his sudden downturn in form
2) the sudden increase in playing frequency

Its no issue to make him aware, that you are aware, of what is happening. He may just think again about his "actions". If he reacts badly then you can be confident that your suspicions are probably correct.

Any player with a genuine issue would not have a problem with your approach.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 30, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			I lost the meat of your question in amongst the maths!!

I would have thought that the moment you as handicap secretary saw a sudden increase in frequency of rounds, played well outside his current ability, that you would engage with the player in question to ascertain if there was an issue that was contributing to

1) his sudden downturn in form
2) the sudden increase in playing frequency

Its no issue to make him aware, that you are aware, of what is happening. He may just think again about his "actions". If he reacts badly then you can be confident that your suspicions are probably correct.

Any player with a genuine issue would not have a problem with your approach.
		
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Thanks. I certainly would take that approach. I guess my only issue would be is that, if I was unlucky enough to have a genuine cheat on my hands, they may simply day they're playing badly, and I'll have to make a subjective decision. Such as, can I reject any more cards, or recind ones already submitted? I guess this will become clear at the workshop on WHS. 

I suppose the issue may become more tricky if it is ever decided golfers are recommended to submit all social golf as well. Not sure if that will happen, but if it does, I wouldn't be able to make conclusions based on the sudden volume of supplementary cards coming in, given they'll be coming left right and centre.


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## rulefan (Jan 30, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			From my New Zealand experience over 6 winters , the "oldies" over winter would go up due to less roll and cooler temps etc but never more than 3-4 shots , one good score in the better weather and then back to normal
		
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I don't think the NZ system has the equivalent of the PCC (Playing Conditions Calculation for some) or CSS (Competition Standard Scratch) .


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## upsidedown (Jan 30, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I don't think the NZ system has the equivalent of the PCC (Playing Conditions Calculation for some) or CSS (Competition Standard Scratch) .
		
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It's been nearly 7 years since we left now so can't really remember but no don't think so . Been looking at my old clubs scores and members and their HI's are pretty consistent with 2-3 shot ( probably not the right phrase but most folks know what I mean ) variance


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## upsidedown (Jan 30, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Thanks. I certainly would take that approach. I guess my only issue would be is that, if I was unlucky enough to have a genuine cheat on my hands, they may simply day they're playing badly, and I'll have to make a subjective decision. Such as, can I reject any more cards, or recind ones already submitted? I guess this will become clear at the workshop on WHS.

I suppose the issue may become more tricky if it is ever decided golfers are recommended to submit all social golf as well. Not sure if that will happen, but if it does, I wouldn't be able to make conclusions based on the sudden volume of supplementary cards coming in, given they'll be coming left right and centre.
		
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Remember you will have your committee to help you .


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## rulefan (Jan 30, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			It's been nearly 7 years since we left now so can't really remember but no don't think so . Been looking at my old clubs scores and members and their HI's are pretty consistent with 2-3 shot ( probably not the right phrase but most folks know what I mean ) variance
		
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I've checked. It doesn't. That should make a difference in winter. I don't know how much but it seemed to work successfully in Australia. But admittedly the winter weather is different.
As we generally play few qualifiers here (I know, I know, down sarf they do get better weather and do play), i would suggest that the CSS could well be at least a couple of shots above SSS if we did. Perhaps a Cornish player can tell us if there is a noticeable increase in CSS during the winter. I know up here we had a lot of ROs when it started raining.


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## Swango1980 (Jan 30, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			Remember you will have your committee to help you .
		
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Yeah, happy with that. Just curious as to what happens next. At moment, we could just decide to change the players handicap to an appropriate value. But, under WHS, not sure that is possible, because it is based on last 20 scores. If I were to simply change the handicap, and then the player submits another card, not quite sure how it calculates the handicap given I have just ignored his last 19 scores. I'm sure there will be some calculation, as I think annual Review will still exist in some form


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## Swango1980 (Jan 30, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I've checked. It doesn't. That should make a difference in winter. I don't know how much but it seemed to work successfully in Australia. But admittedly the winter weather is different.
As we generally play few qualifiers here (I know, I know, down sarf they do get better weather and do play), i would suggest that the CSS could well be at least a couple of shots above SSS if we did. Perhaps a Cornish player can tell us if there is a noticeable increase in CSS during the winter. I know up here we had a lot of ROs when it started raining.
		
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Our winter comps CSS is usually equal SSS, or 1 lower. Only one qualifier this winter due to weather, were CSS was sSS-1. I think a lot of golfers generally enjoy the shorter course due to it being yellow tees, and balls tend to stick to fairway rather than bounce into rough or trees.


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## nickjdavis (Jan 30, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Yeah, happy with that. Just curious as to what happens next. At moment, we could just decide to change the players handicap to an appropriate value. But, under WHS, not sure that is possible, because it is based on last 20 scores. If I were to simply change the handicap, and then the player submits another card, not quite sure how it calculates the handicap given I have just ignored his last 19 scores. I'm sure there will be some calculation, as I think annual Review will still exist in some form
		
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There is a mechanism in the new system that allows a once off "manual adjustment" by the handicap secretary to be appropriately built in to the last 20 scores so it is included in all ongoing handicap calculations.


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## rulefan (Jan 31, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			as I think annual Review will still exist in some form
		
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_"It is strongly recommended that the Handicap Committee conducts a _handicap review_ at least once every calendar year"_


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## Swango1980 (Jan 31, 2020)

rulefan said:



_"It is strongly recommended that the Handicap Committee conducts a _handicap review_ at least once every calendar year"_

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That may simply be the answer then. If a golfer suddenly gets a big increase after an influx of cards over a month or 2, then the Handicap Committee can simply adjust the Handicap Index back down, even outside your normal Annual Review. I'd be interested to understand the workings of that, in terms of how that impacts your previous scores and future adjustments when more scores are entered. As nickjdavis suggests. maybe it just makes background adjustments to those previous 20 scores, which then apply as the player enters more scores.

It would be nice if there was an automated system to somehow highlight potential strange increases, such like the Continuous Review or the calculations made during Annual Review that are made to highlight players (but obviously different calcs due to the different system). After all, my examples above, although easyish for a player to do, should also stand out like a sore thumb, especially if they are one of the few entering supplementary cards. However, sometimes players might be a little cuter about it, and maybe not get such an extreme increase as 5 shots. Maybe that will be some years off, until we all get used to the quirks of the system. After all, Continuous Review and ESR took quite some time to be introduced to the CONGU system, but certainly helped improve it (in my opinion)


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## nickjdavis (Jan 31, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I've checked. It doesn't. That should make a difference in winter. I don't know how much but it seemed to work successfully in Australia. But admittedly the winter weather is different.
As we generally play few qualifiers here (I know, I know, down sarf they do get better weather and do play), i would suggest that the CSS could well be at least a couple of shots above SSS if we did. Perhaps a Cornish player can tell us if there is a noticeable increase in CSS during the winter. I know up here we had a lot of ROs when it started raining.
		
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Would a Suffolk player do (especially as we are the 2nd driest county in the country!!) ???

Since 2011, dividng the year up into quarters our CSS has moved on average...

DEC-FEB : +1.27 (taking out a couple of statistical outliers this actually comes down to 0.95)
MAR-MAY: +0.52
JUN-AUG: +0.05
SEP-NOV: +0.34

(there were no obvious statistical outliers in the other 3 quarters)


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## rulefan (Jan 31, 2020)

Thanks. Lower than I expected.
Was the DEC-FEB this winter or last?


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## duncan mackie (Jan 31, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Thanks. Lower than I expected.
Was the DEC-FEB this winter or last?
		
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Also, from a Kent perspective, we tend to ease the teeing area strain by using more forward tees in the winter (within the permitted scope obviously) and I've noticed many other courses in the area do the same thing.
We have year round Q


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## rulefan (Jan 31, 2020)

duncan mackie said:



			Also, from a Kent perspective, we tend to ease the teeing area strain by using more forward tees in the winter (within the permitted scope obviously) and I've noticed many other courses in the area do the same thing.
We have year round Q
		
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Probably keeping any CSS adjustment down?


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## Swango1980 (Jan 31, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Would a Suffolk player do (especially as we are the 2nd driest county in the country!!) ???

Since 2011, dividng the year up into quarters our CSS has moved on average...

DEC-FEB : +1.27 (taking out a couple of statistical outliers this actually comes down to 0.95)
MAR-MAY: +0.52
JUN-AUG: +0.05
SEP-NOV: +0.34

(there were no obvious statistical outliers in the other 3 quarters)
		
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Interesting. The following is for my course, in Lincolnshire over the last 3 years

DEC-FEB : -0.38
MAR-MAY: +0.60
JUN-AUG: -0.11
SEP-NOV: -0.05

March - May is obviously a very tough time, not once has CSS been under SSS. Whereas, Dec - Feb only once has CSS been 1 higher than SSS, but half the comps it was 1 under


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## rulefan (Jan 31, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Interesting. The following is for my course, in Lincolnshire over the last 3 years

DEC-FEB : -0.38
MAR-MAY: +0.60
JUN-AUG: -0.11
SEP-NOV: -0.05

March - May is obviously a very tough time, not once has CSS been under SSS. Whereas, Dec - Feb only once has CSS been 1 higher than SSS, but half the comps it was 1 under
		
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Gosh. I thought it had been pretty wet south of Yorkshire. What sort of ground are you on? Similar to Woodhall Spa?


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## Swango1980 (Jan 31, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Gosh. I thought it had been pretty wet south of Yorkshire. What sort of ground are you on? Similar to Woodhall Spa?
		
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Not at all. It is clay. Still, we do tend to stay open all year, and usually just have to put up with 2-3 very boggy holes. This year, however, only got 1 winter qualifier in, as been on more than 2 temps, and 17th tee box had to be moved so far forward that it becomes a 100 yard par 3 instead of a 170 yard par 4


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## nickjdavis (Jan 31, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Thanks. Lower than I expected.
Was the DEC-FEB this winter or last?
		
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Average of the last ten years.


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## nickjdavis (Jan 31, 2020)

duncan mackie said:



			Also, from a Kent perspective, we tend to ease the teeing area strain by using more forward tees in the winter (within the permitted scope obviously) and I've noticed many other courses in the area do the same thing.
We have year round Q
		
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Due to the size of our teeing areas we dont really have this option except on maybe 1 or 2 holes.


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## nickjdavis (Feb 11, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Who did the presentation? The County or a club member? They must have been using the wrong slideshow. I did a County presentation last Friday and am looking at the England Golf powerpoint show now. (CR-Par) is not in the formula.
		
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Finally got hold of a copy of the presentation and can confirm that it was my memory that failed me.

Heres a question though about the mechanics of the calculation of the course handicap...

Do you do the Handicap Index*Slope Rating/133 calculation and then round to a whole number to get the course handicap? or...

Do you do Slope/133, round this answer to 2 decimal places and then multiply by the handicap index, and then round that result to a whole number?

Consider a slope rating of 124 and a handicap index of 5.

Using the first method...5*124/113 = 5.4867*.....rounding this to a whole number gives a course handicap of 5 

Using the second way...124/113 = 1.0973*....round this to 2 decimal places gives 1.10. 5*1.10 = 5.5 which rounds to a course handicap of 6.

(If you use indexes of 4.9 or 5.1 in the calculation this error does not occur)

*I arbitrarily chose to show the resulting calculation to 4 decimal places)

This question is prompted by the example given in the presentation, where the slope/113 part of the calculation is shown as a separate step, to 2 decimal places. If you were doing the calculation on a calculator or in a spreadsheet you would simply do index * slope / 113 and then do the rounding.

This is a subtle difference but could be important for those clubs who want to calculate and produce their own Course Handicap Tables rather than fork out £150 to have Eagle do it for them.


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## rulefan (Feb 11, 2020)

Rounding is applied after the whole calculation. ie your first method.


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## nickjdavis (Feb 11, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Rounding is applied after the whole calculation. ie your first method
		
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## Swango1980 (Feb 11, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Finally got hold of a copy of the presentation and can confirm that it was my memory that failed me.

Heres a question though about the mechanics of the calculation of the course handicap...

Do you do the Handicap Index*Slope Rating/133 calculation and then round to a whole number to get the course handicap? or...

Do you do Slope/133, round this answer to 2 decimal places and then multiply by the handicap index, and then round that result to a whole number?

Consider a slope rating of 124 and a handicap index of 5.

Using the first method...5*124/113 = 5.4867*.....rounding this to a whole number gives a course handicap of 5

Using the second way...124/113 = 1.0973*....round this to 2 decimal places gives 1.10. 5*1.10 = 5.5 which rounds to a course handicap of 6.

(If you use indexes of 4.9 or 5.1 in the calculation this error does not occur)

*I arbitrarily chose to show the resulting calculation to 4 decimal places)

This question is prompted by the example given in the presentation, where the slope/113 part of the calculation is shown as a separate step, to 2 decimal places. If you were doing the calculation on a calculator or in a spreadsheet you would simply do index * slope / 113 and then do the rounding.

This is a subtle difference but could be important for those clubs who want to calculate and produce their own Course Handicap Tables rather than fork out £150 to have Eagle do it for them.
		
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Surely you do the full calculation in one go (i.e. your first method). Otherwise, if you break any calculation into several part, you will always introduce rounding errors along the way, and it would also depend on how many decimal places you decide to round to. (PS I just saw rulefan also answered as I was posting)


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## doublebogey7 (Feb 11, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Rounding is applied after the whole calculation. ie your first method.
		
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That is my understanding,  all clubs are to be supplied with the correct Course Handicap Tables by their governing body in electronic format,  so you would use that to purchase your board,  whoever you purchase from.


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## nickjdavis (Feb 11, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			That is my understanding,  all clubs are to be supplied with the correct Course Handicap Tables by their governing body in electronic format,  so you would use that to purchase your board,  whoever you purchase from.
		
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Ahhh….we asked the question as to where we get the tables from and the clarity of answer was somewhat lacking, merely directing us in the costly direction of Eagle.

When we said that we'd knock something up in Excel in about 10 minutes, rather than pay someone to do a task a ten year old could manage, no one mentioned that the Course Handicap tables would be issued "officialy".


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## nickjdavis (Feb 11, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Surely you do the full calculation in one go (i.e. your first method). Otherwise, if you break any calculation into several part, you will always introduce rounding errors along the way, and it would also depend on how many decimal places you decide to round to. (PS I just saw rulefan also answered as I was posting)
		
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Indeed that was my thought....but the way the calculation was shown in the presentation suggested the possibility of doing it in the 2nd, not quite logical manner.


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## rulefan (Feb 11, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Indeed that was my thought....but the way the calculation was shown in the presentation suggested the possibility of doing it in the 2nd, not quite logical manner.
		
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The draft manual shows it as
Course Handicap = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating / 113)


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## IanMcC (Feb 11, 2020)

You always perform the task inside the brackets first, in mathematics.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 11, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			You always perform the task inside the brackets first, in mathematics.
		
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That is true (BODMAS). However, that does not imply you do the bit in brackets separately, round it to a value, then do the next bit of the calculation separately. All it does is tell you the order in which you do the calculation. You will eliminate rounding errors if you do the full calculation in one go.


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## richbeech (Feb 11, 2020)

Just followed the link for the USGA slope rating page and looked up my club: 

Blues 151
Whites 148


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## Swango1980 (Feb 11, 2020)

richbeech said:



			Just followed the link for the USGA slope rating page and looked up my club:

Blues 151
Whites 148



Click to expand...

You'll get that at most courses. It is because Slope does not represent difficulty, it only represents the relative difficulty between scratch and bogey players. Course Rating (like SSS now) still a better indicator on course difficulty, so on the same website you will probably see a difference in CR for both sets of tees?

At my course, whites are much harder than yellows (SSS 69 compared to 67 off yellows), but the Slope rating for yellows is 130 and for whites only 133. So, most players will have the same course handicap regardless of which tees they play off, a few might be lucky enough to get an extra shot off whites depending on the decimal point.


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## rulefan (Feb 11, 2020)

richbeech said:



			Just followed the link for the USGA slope rating page and looked up my club:

Blues 151
Whites 148



Click to expand...

Without looking at the post from Swango (above), what do you think that tells you?


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## xreyuk (Feb 11, 2020)

I haven't seen it mentioned, it says Cat 1 players can enter cards daily, is there a limit on this like there currently is?


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## rulefan (Feb 12, 2020)

xreyuk said:



			I haven't seen it mentioned, it says Cat 1 players can enter cards daily, is there a limit on this like there currently is?
		
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There won't be any categories in the WHS.
There is no limit on the number of scores that may be returned in a day


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## Swango1980 (Feb 12, 2020)

rulefan said:



			There won't be any categories in the WHS.
There is no limit on the number of scores that may be returned in a day
		
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At the moment there is a limit on supplementary cards for Cat 1 players. Is that because Cat 1 players are effectively the elite at club level, and are pushing to represent the County, so there are tighter restrictions (like others such as, at annual review, not being allowed to reduce a handicap into Cat 1)

If so, will these same players have any tighter restrictions under WHS?


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## rulefan (Feb 12, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			At the moment there is a limit on supplementary cards for Cat 1 players. Is that because Cat 1 players are effectively the elite at club level, and are pushing to represent the County, so there are tighter restrictions (like others such as, at annual review, not being allowed to reduce a handicap into Cat 1)

If so, will these same players have any tighter restrictions under WHS?
		
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1) Yes
2) No. Nothing in WHS but that doesn't mean that the counties or England Golf won't require a beadier eye to be kept on them outside the system. But I think it unlikely as they are putting their trust in the WHS system being more rigorous.
At present counties do an audit of cat 1 players and I don't see that being dropped but perhaps being concentrated on 2 or better (say)


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## Vikingman (Feb 12, 2020)

Another question on rounding issues. 

On the presentation slides the Course handicap calculation is shown as:

15.6 (HI) x 1.05(Slope) =16.4(Course Hcap) Using those multipliers the Course Handicap = 16.38 so the handicap has logically been rounded up.

The figure of 16.4 is used on Playing Handicap Calculation slide as follows:

16.4 (CH) x 95% (Allowance) = 15.5 (Playing Handicap) Using those multipliers the Playing Handicap = 15.58 so the handicap has been rounded down.

This is rather confusing unless I am missing something.

Can anyone explain.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 12, 2020)

Vikingman said:



			Another question on rounding issues.

On the presentation slides the Course handicap calculation is shown as:

15.6 (HI) x 1.05(Slope) =16.4(Course Hcap) Using those multipliers the Course Handicap = 16.38 so the handicap has logically been rounded up.

The figure of 16.4 is used on Playing Handicap Calculation slide as follows:

16.4 (CH) x 95% (Allowance) = 15.5 (Playing Handicap) Using those multipliers the Playing Handicap = 15.58 so the handicap has been rounded down.

This is rather confusing unless I am missing something.

Can anyone explain.
		
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It's a good question. The intention may be blindingly obvious to those that develop the WHS, but no doubt golfers around the country at every club will be trying to figure out the same thing when they come to working out their course and playing handicaps.

It is my expectation that the course handicap will simply be displayed on a chart at the club, so ultimately the golfer will not need to work it out.

However, I'm not sure about playing handicap. Given that players currently only use their whole number handicap when working out 90% the difference in fourball match play, I assume their expectation would be to take 95% of their whole number Course Handicap. However, given your comment, I would be wrong in this, and it will be based on the decimal course handicap. I'm not sure if playing handicap will also be displayed on these charts, but if not, I will enjoy watching some members trying to work out 95% of a non whole number. I could just tell them, don't worry, all you need to do is divide 16.4 by 10 to get 1.64 (10%), then divide it by 2 to get 0.82, and that will be 5%. Then, take the 0.82 (5%) off your 16.4 (100%) to get your playing handicap of 15.58 (95%). I think the easier response would be "does your phone have a calculator?"


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## rulefan (Feb 12, 2020)

Vikingman said:



			Another question on rounding issues.

On the presentation slides the Course handicap calculation is shown as:

15.6 (HI) x 1.05(Slope) =16.4(Course Hcap) Using those multipliers the Course Handicap = 16.38 so the handicap has logically been rounded up.

The figure of 16.4 is used on Playing Handicap Calculation slide as follows:

16.4 (CH) x 95% (Allowance) = 15.5 (Playing Handicap) Using those multipliers the Playing Handicap = 15.58 so the handicap has been rounded down.

This is rather confusing unless I am missing something.

Can anyone explain.
		
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The calculation is always done to 1 dec place rounded conventionally.
The resultant figure is rounded conventionally to a whole number.

So the slides I presented a couple of weeks at one of the county seminars ago show:

(Handicap Index) * (Slope / 113) = (Course Handicap)
.........15.6.....................1.05..................16.4 (16)

(Course Handicap) * (Allowance) = (Playing Handicap)
..........16.4.....................95%.................15.5 (16)

When I presented this, I was immediately asked 'How do we know our 1 dec place CH as the charts only show whole numbers'. The EG representative didn't know the answer and my briefing notes gave no clue. I am now awaiting a clear answer from Woodhall Spa.
My guess is they expect the software to sort it out and display it on entry to a comp or pre-registration for a 'casual' score.


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## jim8flog (Feb 12, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			At the moment there is a limit on supplementary cards for Cat 1 players. Is that because Cat 1 players are effectively the elite at club level, and are pushing to represent the County, so there are tighter restrictions (like others such as, at annual review, not being allowed to reduce a handicap into Cat 1)

If so, will these same players have any tighter restrictions under WHS?
		
Click to expand...

 There will be no Categories under the WHS 

The only 'restrictions' will apply to males with a handicap of zero or better or ladies with a handicap of 2 or better (from today's Area Authority briefing)


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## Swango1980 (Feb 12, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The calculation is always done to 1 dec place rounded conventionally.
The resultant figure is rounded conventionally to a whole number.

So the slides I presented a couple of weeks at one of the county seminars ago show:

(Handicap Index) * (Slope / 113) = (Course Handicap)
.........15.6.....................1.05..................16.4 (16)

(Course Handicap) * (Allowance) = (Playing Handicap)
..........16.4.....................95%.................15.5 (16)

When I presented this, I was immediately asked 'How do we know our 1 dec place CH as the charts only show whole numbers'. The EG representative didn't know the answer and my briefing notes gave no clue. I am now awaiting a clear answer from Woodhall Spa.
My guess is they expect the software to sort it out and display it on entry to a comp or pre-registration for a 'casual' score.
		
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I shall be attending the meeting at Woodhall next week. Will be interesting


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## jim8flog (Feb 12, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I shall be attending the meeting at Woodhall next week. Will be interesting
		
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 Went to mine today.

 Lots of stuff I had not heard before too much to really take in and remember but enough to clear out a lot of the what ifs and maybes.  Looking forward to seeing it all in writing.

Dorset Golf Union has a really good FAQS (downloadable PDF) via the WHS2020 tab


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## mikejohnchapman (Feb 12, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The calculation is always done to 1 dec place rounded conventionally.
The resultant figure is rounded conventionally to a whole number.

So the slides I presented a couple of weeks at one of the county seminars ago show:

(Handicap Index) * (Slope / 113) = (Course Handicap)
.........15.6.....................1.05..................16.4 (16)

(Course Handicap) * (Allowance) = (Playing Handicap)
..........16.4.....................95%.................15.5 (16)

When I presented this, I was immediately asked 'How do we know our 1 dec place CH as the charts only show whole numbers'. The EG representative didn't know the answer and my briefing notes gave no clue. I am now awaiting a clear answer from Woodhall Spa.
My guess is they expect the software to sort it out and display it on entry to a comp or pre-registration for a 'casual' score.
		
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I asked this specifically  of England Golf when I saw the slides.

Their answer was the slides were correct!

The Course Handicap calculation – which will be used for social golf and rounded. It will normally be read from a table in the clubhouse and give an integer number.

The Playing Handicap calculation is a competition handicap and has the decimal point from the Course Handicap calculation carried into the 95% calculation, which is then rounded at the end. It is expected that when you sign into the competition on the computer this calculation will be done for you.

Simples ....................... (or not)


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## rulefan (Feb 12, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			1) Their answer was the slides were correct!

2) It is expected that when you sign into the competition on the computer this calculation will be done for you.
		
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1) Odd. The version I presented were that sent to me by EG. I wonder where yours showing a second decimal came from.
2) As I thought.


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## nickjdavis (Feb 12, 2020)

This is sounding more and more like a minefield in a quagmire.

Suppose two players turn up to play a match and don't have any access to a computer terminal to determine their exact (to one decimal place) Course Handicaps?

Half of our members struggle with 90% of an integer. Its going to send a load of them to the great golf course in the sky if they have to try to do 95% of a decimal number!!!

and a fourball scramble??? 25% of 6.3 + 20% of 11.8 + 15% of 18.4 + 10% of 37.1.... yeah I can see that going down a storm!!!


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## rulefan (Feb 12, 2020)

Once upon a time score cards had % conversions on the back. But that was for whole numbers. There won't be room for decimals


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## nickjdavis (Feb 12, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Dorset Golf Union has a really good FAQS (downloadable PDF) via the WHS2020 tab
		
Click to expand...

Indeed it does, and one of the FAQ's is...


Q:If my handicap index is calculated to one decimal point, what will be my exact handicap?
A: A player’s handicap index is calculated to one decimal place. *When the course handicap is calculated it will be rounded to the nearest integer*.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 13, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Indeed it does, and one of the FAQ's is...


Q:If my handicap index is calculated to one decimal point, what will be my exact handicap?
A: A player’s handicap index is calculated to one decimal place. *When the course handicap is calculated it will be rounded to the nearest integer*.
		
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So, from what I am reading, are we saying players will need to work out their own playing handicap? The answer seems to be, we are not sure if it is worked out using the course handicap ro a decimal place or an integer? But, we do not need to worry as the computer will just work it out. So, does that mean we are 100% reliant on the computer?

Just wondering what we'll do when we go and play a social weekend away with a mate or 2 (or something like our Captains weekend which 27 of us are playing). We'll not have a computer to help us there. I know it's only social, so we're not getting a DQ if everyone thinks it's been done correctly. But, it would be nice to be sure we had done the calculation correctly. Although, I bet it will still annoy some that they need to figure out 95% of a number, even if they knew it was a decimal or integer they were starting from


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## rulefan (Feb 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			The answer seems to be, we are not sure if it is worked out using the course handicap ro a decimal place or an integer?
		
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The presentation slides certainly show the dec CH is used to calculate the PH.


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## doublebogey7 (Feb 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			So, from what I am reading, are we saying players will need to work out their own playing handicap? The answer seems to be, we are not sure if it is worked out using the course handicap ro a decimal place or an integer? But, we do not need to worry as the computer will just work it out. So, does that mean we are 100% reliant on the computer?

Just wondering what we'll do when we go and play a social weekend away with a mate or 2 (or something like our Captains weekend which 27 of us are playing). We'll not have a computer to help us there. I know it's only social, so we're not getting a DQ if everyone thinks it's been done correctly. But, it would be nice to be sure we had done the calculation correctly. Although, I bet it will still annoy some that they need to figure out 95% of a number, even if they knew it was a decimal or integer they were starting from
		
Click to expand...

You will be able to log on to your account via the PSI of the course you are visiting,  or use an app on your smart phone if your ir anyone in the party has one.


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## rulefan (Feb 13, 2020)

This from the fully published USGA manual.

_*Course Handicap
Note: *The calculated 18-hole and 9-hole Course Handicap is rounded to the nearest whole number, with .5 rounded upwards, for the purpose of: 
 > Applying adjustments for maximum hole score (see Rule 3.1) and when a hole is not played (see Rule 3.2). 
 > Where applicable, calculating a Score Differential. 
*Otherwise, the full calculated value is retained and rounding occurs only after the Playing Handicap calculation.*_


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## rulefan (Feb 13, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			You will be able to log on to your account via the PSI of the course you are visiting,  or use an app on your smart phone if your ir anyone in the party has one.
		
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Just use the calculator on your phone


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## patricks148 (Feb 13, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			This is sounding more and more like a minefield in a quagmire.

Suppose two players turn up to play a match and don't have any access to a computer terminal to determine their exact (to one decimal place) Course Handicaps?

Half of our members struggle with 90% of an integer. Its going to send a load of them to the great golf course in the sky if they have to try to do 95% of a decimal number!!!

and a fourball scramble??? 25% of 6.3 + 20% of 11.8 + 15% of 18.4 + 10% of 37.1.... yeah I can see that going down a storm!!!
		
Click to expand...

yes, thats def easier that what we have now........ not


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## nickjdavis (Feb 13, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			You will be able to log on to your account via the PSI of the course you are visiting,  or use an app on your smart phone if your ir anyone in the party has one.
		
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and what do you do if you don't have access to the PSI.....if there ISNT a PSI????

What is this mythical App than folks keep talking about....as yet it does not exist so you cannot rely on it being available.


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## nickjdavis (Feb 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Just use the calculator on your phone
		
Click to expand...

The actual calculation is just one part of the issue. The main part is knowing what your course handicap is to one decimal place. Are we expecting players to do the Handicap Index*Slope/113 calculation for themselves and then do 95% (or whatever) of the result every time they play?

What then is the point of having the Course Handicap Tables if theyre irrelevant?


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## jim8flog (Feb 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			So, from what I am reading, are we saying players will need to work out their own playing handicap? The answer seems to be, we are not sure if it is worked out using the course handicap ro a decimal place or an integer? But, we do not need to worry as the computer will just work it out. So, does that mean we are 100% reliant on the computer?

Just wondering what we'll do when we go and play a social weekend away with a mate or 2 (or something like our Captains weekend which 27 of us are playing). We'll not have a computer to help us there. I know it's only social, so we're not getting a DQ if everyone thinks it's been done correctly. But, it would be nice to be sure we had done the calculation correctly. Although, I bet it will still annoy some that they need to figure out 95% of a number, even if they knew it was a decimal or integer they were starting from
		
Click to expand...

The requirement still remains that a player is only responsible for having their correct gross handicap (index) on the card.

 All clubs will have to offer charts to work out the course handicap but you will still have to work out any other changes for you own benefit eg single pairs etc 

For reference Course Handicap (current playing) is definitely a whole number 0.4 or lower going down and 0.5 and above going up (as currently done) the charts will show this.


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## jim8flog (Feb 13, 2020)

I do find it amazing that players are suggesting they need a calculator to work out 95%.

Take the number, work out 10%, half it then deduct that from you handicap.


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## duncan mackie (Feb 13, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			For reference Course Handicap (current playing) is definitely a whole number 0.4 or lower going down and 0.5 and above going up (as currently done) the charts will show this.
		
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Throwing statements like this into the thread is somewhat misleading -

1. Course handicap isn't necessarily your (current?) playing handicap.

2. Course handicap as a calculated figure for use in the calculation of a playing handicap is not rounded to a whole number.

In simple terms  you round to a whole number when you get to the output you are actually going to use for that round in that competition.


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## jim8flog (Feb 13, 2020)

duncan mackie said:



			Throwing statements like this into the thread is somewhat misleading -

1. Course handicap isn't necessarily your (current?) playing handicap.

2. Course handicap as a calculated figure for use in the calculation of a playing handicap is not rounded to a whole number.

In simple terms  you round to a whole number when you get to the output you are actually going to use for that round in that competition.
		
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Sorry I do not get your logic in response to the original Post I quoted

Handicap index x (slope rating /113) = Course Handicap 

This is then rounded  to a whole number is what we were told at the workshop yesterday.

The reason for quoting current in brackets is because of what was posted in the post I was replying to.


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## duncan mackie (Feb 13, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Sorry I do not get your logic in response to the original Post I quoted

Handicap index x (slope rating /113) = Course Handicap

This is then rounded  to a whole number is what we were told at the workshop yesterday.

The reason for quoting current in brackets is because of what was posted in the post I was replying to.
		
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If the calculated Course Handicap is to then be converted to a playing handicap e.g. a stroke play competition at 95%, it is not rounded to a whole number


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## Swango1980 (Feb 13, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I do find it amazing that players are suggesting they need a calculator to work out 95%.

Take the number, work out 10%, half it then deduct that from you handicap.
		
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You may find this amazing. BUT, there is a guy in my club who cannot even divide a whole number by 10. I told him all you did was move the decimal point one to the left. He said 82 (the number he was trying to divide) doesn't have a decimal point. You have far too high an opinion on the capability of some people. My grandad used to think calculating a percentage was equivalent to nuclear physics


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## Swango1980 (Feb 13, 2020)

duncan mackie said:



			If the calculated Course Handicap is to then be converted to a playing handicap e.g. a stroke play competition at 95%, it is not rounded to a whole number

Click to expand...

A agree with you, that is what I would have thought. It appears that some of the slides being presented at these workshops are misleading then


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## duncan mackie (Feb 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			A agree with you, that is what I would have thought. It appears that some of the slides being presented at these workshops are misleading then
		
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I think the use of 2 different levels of rounding within the same calculation is probably the biggest confusion - which then combines with terminology and context...


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## doublebogey7 (Feb 13, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			and what do you do if you don't have access to the PSI.....if there ISNT a PSI????

What is this mythical App than folks keep talking about....as yet it does not exist so you cannot rely on it being available.
		
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As I understand it all clubs will be required to have PSI Terminals,  grants are available for those don't currently possess one.    I understand that the Intelligent Golf app is already available.  But if nothing is available by the time you go on your away day,  there is nothing stopping you doing exactly what you would do today.   I struggle to understand why people are putting so many obstacles in the way,  some 10 months before this goes life,  it was the same this time last with the rules,  but the world continues to turn.


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## rulefan (Feb 13, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			As I understand it all clubs will be required to have PSI Terminals,  grants are available for those don't currently possess one.    I understand that the Intelligent Golf app is already available.  But if nothing is available by the time you go on your away day,  there is nothing stopping you doing exactly what you would do today.   I struggle to understand why people are putting so many obstacles in the way,  some 10 months before this goes life,  it was the same this time last with the rules,  but the world continues to turn.
		
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You are absolutely correct. All the front end providers will have the calculations built into the entry/registration screen. Registration is required for comps and supplementaries.
If a PSI is not available for a supplementary it doesn't matter, as Playing Handicap (as opposed to Course Handicap) has no part in the calculation of the Score Differential  (ie the figure used to update any resultant handicap adjustment)


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## nickjdavis (Feb 13, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Sorry I do not get your logic in response to the original Post I quoted

Handicap index x (slope rating /113) = Course Handicap

T*his is then rounded  to a whole number* is what we were told at the workshop yesterday.

The reason for quoting current in brackets is because of what was posted in the post I was replying to.
		
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This is partly the crux of this discussion. It appears that the course handicap is not rounded to a whole number....the decimal number is then used to calculate the playing handicap.


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## rulefan (Feb 13, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Sorry I do not get your logic in response to the original Post I quoted

Handicap index x (slope rating /113) = Course Handicap

This is then rounded  to a whole number is what we were told at the workshop yesterday.

The reason for quoting current in brackets is because of what was posted in the post I was replying to.
		
Click to expand...

See posts #125 & #129

These show there are two steps involved in determining a Playing Handicap
The first step is to get the un-rounded (1 dec) value of the Course Handicap calculation.
The second step is to apply the Allowance %age and round that to a whole number.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 13, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			As I understand it all clubs will be required to have PSI Terminals,  grants are available for those don't currently possess one.    I understand that the Intelligent Golf app is already available.  But if nothing is available by the time you go on your away day,  there is nothing stopping you doing exactly what you would do today.   *I struggle to understand why people are putting so many obstacles in the way,  some 10 months before this goes life,  it was the same this time last with the rules,  but the world continues to turn.*

Click to expand...

Is it not better to ask the objective questions now (obstacles), rather than to simply sit back and wait and see what happens? Even if they never materialise, it is better to be prepared for the worst and hope for the best. You never know, there may still be some tweaks made to WHS between now and then based on any concerns that may be raised consistently. I'm sure it has been adapted up to this point by trying to address concerns that were raised previously (i.e. I doubt, on the day WHS was first thought off, it looked exactly like it does today)


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## Vikingman (Feb 13, 2020)

With the example quoted it co


rulefan said:



			The calculation is always done to 1 dec place rounded conventionally.
The resultant figure is rounded conventionally to a whole number.

So the slides I presented a couple of weeks at one of the county seminars ago show:

(Handicap Index) * (Slope / 113) = (Course Handicap)
.........15.6.....................1.05..................16.4 (16)

(Course Handicap) * (Allowance) = (Playing Handicap)
..........16.4.....................95%.................15.5 (16)

When I presented this, I was immediately asked 'How do we know our 1 dec place CH as the charts only show whole numbers'. The EG representative didn't know the answer and my briefing notes gave no clue. I am now awaiting a clear answer from Woodhall Spa.
My guess is they expect the software to sort it out and display it on entry to a comp or pre-registration for a 'casual' score.
		
Click to expand...

Rounded conventionally 95% of 16.4 is 15.6, not 15.5 which is the point I was making.

In this instance both 15.5 and 15.6 would be rounded to 16.

What concerned me was if 15.58 becomes 15.5 then what does 15.48 become?

Anyway, I have mentioned it to my local union.


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## nickjdavis (Feb 13, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



*As I understand it all clubs will be required to have PSI Terminals*,  grants are available for those don't currently possess one.    I understand that the Intelligent Golf app is already available.  But if nothing is available by the time you go on your away day,  there is nothing stopping you doing exactly what you would do today.   I struggle to understand why people are putting so many obstacles in the way,  some 10 months before this goes life,  it was the same this time last with the rules,  but the world continues to turn.
		
Click to expand...

We have never been told that we must have a PSI terminal. If required to have one we would need to understand how it is supposed to work in conjunction with the existing computer system we use for our competition management and handicapping software. I'm assuming that there requires some sort of network connectivity to the computer....which for us would be an issue, as it is turned off and locked in a cupboard for 90% of the time and only powered up when we process the scores from a competition or process some supplementary cards.

We have asked the questions many times in the last year (to England Golf, our local Union, our ISV)....and nobody seems to be able to provide answers. Its not a case of putting obstacles in the way...its a case of trying to understand what we need to do to clear the obstacles that already exist, what changes we will need to make in the way we manage and administer our competitions, and unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much reliable advice out there.


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## rulefan (Feb 13, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			We have never been told that we must have a PSI terminal. If required to have one we would need to understand how it is supposed to work in conjunction with the existing computer system we use for our competition management and handicapping software. I'm assuming that there requires some sort of network connectivity to the computer....which for us would be an issue, as it is turned off and locked in a cupboard for 90% of the time and only powered up when we process the scores from a competition or process some supplementary cards.

We have asked the questions many times in the last year (to England Golf, our local Union, our ISV)....and nobody seems to be able to provide answers. Its not a case of putting obstacles in the way...its a case of trying to understand what we need to do to clear the obstacles that already exist, what changes we will need to make in the way we manage and administer our competitions, and unfortunately there doesn't seem to be much reliable advice out there.
		
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If your club has had a representative at a workshop/seminar they will have been told that 'Further information will be issued in early 2020'. This will be shortly after all workshops have been completed. There would have been an opportunity to ask the presenters about technology/software/hardware requirements.


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## nickjdavis (Feb 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			If your club has had a representative at a workshop/seminar they will have been told that 'Further information will be issued in early 2020'. This will be shortly after all workshops have been completed. There would have been an opportunity to ask the presenters about technology/software/hardware requirements.
		
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I was there along with our Club Handicap Secretary. We did ask. They didn't know.

Now whether the lack of knowledge was because it was being run by local County officials and not by England Golf I dont know. The presenter did little more than read out exactly what was on the slides and couldnt really flesh out further information when asked more probing questions.


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## jim8flog (Feb 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			See posts #125 & #129

These show there are two steps involved in determining a Playing Handicap
The first step is to get the un-rounded (1 dec) value of the Course Handicap calculation.
The second step is to apply the Allowance %age and round that to a whole number.
		
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rulefan said:



			See posts #125 & #129

These show there are two steps involved in determining a Playing Handicap
The first step is to get the un-rounded (1 dec) value of the Course Handicap calculation.
The second step is to apply the Allowance %age and round that to a whole number.
		
Click to expand...




nickjdavis said:



			This is partly the crux of this discussion. It appears that the course handicap is not rounded to a whole number....the decimal number is then used to calculate the playing handicap.
		
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This was not my understanding in the course workshop yesterday. Maybe with so much info and nothing being given out  by way of written info maybe I did not follow fully. Like you have said in post# 125 we were only being shown the charts and examples in whole numbers


The charts showed on screen showed the Course Handicap handicap calculations and it was not until much later in the presentation were we introduced to all the percentages for the different formats.

No doubt when all the manuals are released it will be totally clear.


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## rulefan (Feb 13, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			I was there along with our Club Handicap Secretary. We did ask. They didn't know.

Now whether the lack of knowledge was because it was being run by local County officials and not by England Golf I dont know. The presenter did little more than read out exactly what was on the slides and couldnt really flesh out further information when asked more probing questions.
		
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The presenters would have had no more information than what was on the slideshow. EG aren't providing much extra until all seminars have been completed and everyone (ie club officials) are at the same level.
One or two of us have an inside track and have been able to winkle out a bit more but very little.


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## rulefan (Feb 13, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			This was not my understanding in the course workshop yesterday. Maybe with so much info and nothing being given out  by way of written info maybe I did not follow fully. Like you have said in post# 125 we were only being shown the charts and examples in whole numbers


The charts showed on screen showed the Course Handicap handicap calculations and it was not until much later in the presentation were we introduced to all the percentages for the different formats.

No doubt when all the manuals are released it will be totally clear.
		
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You should be getting a hardcopy of all the slides from EG.
But certainly my powerpoint copy and hard copy show the decimal included in the Playing Handicap calculation.


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## nickjdavis (Feb 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The presenters would have had no more information than what was on the slideshow. EG aren't providing much extra until all seminars have been completed and everyone (ie club officials) are at the same level.
One or two of us have an inside track and have been able to winkle out a bit more but very little.
		
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OK...perhaps we went to the seminar with the expectation that the folks presenting to us were already well versed in the system and would be able to talk in greater depth about the nuances, rather than just read what was displayed on the screen. If what you write is correct (and I'm not doubting you) then perhaps there is less to worry about in terms of wondering why our local union reps are seemingly devoid of knowledge.


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## rulefan (Feb 13, 2020)

nickjdavis said:






OK...perhaps we went to the seminar with the expectation that the folks presenting to us were already well versed in the system and would be able to talk in greater depth about the nuances, rather than just read what was displayed on the screen. If what you write is correct (and I'm not doubting you) then perhaps there is less to worry about in terms of wondering why our local union reps are seemingly devoid of knowledge.
		
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In fact there were two or three regional sessions where the potential presenters simply had a 'presentation' on presenting 'the' presentation. Only afterwards were we were given a preliminary draft of the CONGU WHS Rules (which excluded any variations that the USGA, Australia etc may have in theirs).

I have a copy of the (very comprehensive USGA Rules) which include the following (which I posted earlier):

*Note: *_The calculated 18-hole and 9-hole Course Handicap is rounded to the
nearest whole number, with .5 rounded upwards, for the purpose of:
> Applying adjustments for maximum hole score (see Rule 3.1) and when a hole is not played (see Rule 3.2).
> Where applicable, calculating a Score Differential.
Otherwise, the full calculated value is retained and rounding occurs only after the
Playing Handicap calculation._

This does not appear in the CONGU draft.


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## nickjdavis (Feb 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			In fact there were two or three regional sessions where the potential presenters simply had a 'presentation' on presenting 'the' presentation. Only afterwards were we were given a preliminary draft of the CONGU WHS Rules (which excluded any variations that the USGA, Australia etc may have in theirs).

I have a copy of the (very comprehensive USGA Rules) which include the following (which I posted earlier):

*Note: *_The calculated 18-hole and 9-hole Course Handicap is rounded to the
nearest whole number, with .5 rounded upwards, for the purpose of:
> Applying adjustments for maximum hole score (see Rule 3.1) and when a hole is not played (see Rule 3.2).
> Where applicable, calculating a Score Differential.
Otherwise, the full calculated value is retained and rounding occurs only after the
Playing Handicap calculation._

This does not appear in the CONGU draft.
		
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Yes I've had a copy of the USGA rules for a few weeks now as well. You cant help but wonder sometimes about how "world" this WHS is when there may be fundamental differences in how the calculations might work. 

Sure there may be regional differences to take account of the most popular playing formats in terms of what type of scores are allowable...but it does seem strange that there may be differences in the calculation methodology. 

Time will tell I guess.


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## rulefan (Feb 13, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Yes I've had a copy of the USGA rules for a few weeks now as well. You cant help but wonder sometimes about how "world" this WHS is when there may be fundamental differences in how the calculations might work.

Sure there may be regional differences to take account of the most popular playing formats in terms of what type of scores are allowable...but it does seem strange that there may be differences in the calculation methodology.

Time will tell I guess.
		
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The only significant difference is the (CR-Par) element of the CH calculation, which is supposed to help calculate NDB. Not sure how. But it makes no difference to the Score Differential when calculating any Handicap Index adjustment post round. As it (CH calc) applies to all players, it doesn't affect competition results.


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## jim8flog (Feb 14, 2020)

One of the things that I have noticed, from checking online, is that the charts that I have looked at show as a single line for a given handicap index range (eg 10.5 to 11.3) with a course handicap as a whole number only.

So anybody just using the charts and then applying the percentage for a given competition may come up with a different number than somebody doing the maths for themselves.

That assumes the same charts will be used in CONGU regions to those in the USGA regions


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## nickjdavis (Feb 14, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			One of the things that I have noticed, from checking online, is that the charts that I have looked at show as a single line for a given handicap index range (eg 10.5 to 11.3) with a course handicap as a whole number only.

So anybody just using the charts and then applying the percentage for a given competition may come up with a different number than somebody doing the maths for themselves.

That assumes the same charts will be used in CONGU regions to those in the USGA regions
		
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I have raised this very issue with my county secretary. 

He has forwarded the "problem" on to England Golf. When I get a reply... I'll post it here.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 14, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			I have raised this very issue with my county secretary.

He has forwarded the "problem" on to England Golf. When I get a reply... I'll post it here.
		
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Just in case you don't get an answer, I've added it to my list for the Woodhall Spa workshop next week


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## ScienceBoy (Feb 14, 2020)

I have a feeling that the shift to WHS will have an impact on those who are seen as “regular winners” at golf clubs, which could be a good thing.


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## 3offTheTee (Feb 14, 2020)

A guy said today that any Club MAY make ‘roll ups’ qualifying and players would have to input scores.

To overcome this gimmees could be involved.

Is this correct


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## lex! (Feb 14, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			A guy said today that any Club MAY make ‘roll ups’ qualifying and players would have to input scores.

To overcome this gimmees could be involved.

Is this correct
		
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Can't see it will make any difference. Why would a club want to do that? If you 'roll up' under the present system you could notify the intention to post a supplementary score first.


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## sunshine (Feb 14, 2020)

rulefan said:



			At present counties do an audit of cat 1 players and I don't see that being dropped but perhaps being concentrated on 2 or better (say)
		
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I'm curious, why only Cat 1 players?

I would have thought that the bandits were mainly in cat 2 or 3! And the prestigious competitions for the county are all scratch.

I really know very little about the finer details of handicapping.


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## 3offTheTee (Feb 14, 2020)

lex! said:



			Can't see it will make any difference. Why would a club want to do that? If you 'roll up' under the present system you could notify the intention to post a supplementary score first.
		
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I am not asking why but whether they may if they want to.

If they  did go ahead it would mean all roll up scores being inputted


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## Swango1980 (Feb 14, 2020)

sunshine said:



			I'm curious, why only Cat 1 players?

I would have thought that the bandits were mainly in cat 2 or 3! And the prestigious competitions for the county are all scratch.

I really know very little about the finer details of handicapping.
		
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I'm guessing it is because, once you get to Category 1, you could start knocking on the door at playing elite amateur golf, such as County and National golf competitions. I know that, to get to that level, you probably need to be significantly below 5, but best to catch them long before they get closer to that handicap level of scratch and lower.

I doubt the unions are bothered about bandits, the guidelines are there to let individual golf club handicap committees to try and deal with them. A category 2 or 3 golfer is not going to have any impact at the elite level.


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## jim8flog (Feb 14, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			I am not asking why but whether they may if they want to.

If they  did go ahead it would mean all roll up scores being inputted
		
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There was an edict that came out a few years ago that said we must take roll up scores in to consideration when  conducting the Annual Review but that meant the organisers actually keeping records of all the scores. We have lots of different roll ups where I play and some the simply refused to keep the records and others said "if it  is not going to be applied to all roll ups I do not see why it should be applied to ours" and some said they would refuse to give over the records on the same basis".  It also brought up the thorny issue of gimmes.

I play in quite a few of them, they all play stableford and allow gimmes of one length or another.

As already said it would require all players to notify their intention of playing a qualifying round (supplementary score in today's parlance).


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## jim8flog (Feb 14, 2020)

sunshine said:



			I'm curious, why only Cat 1 players?

I would have thought that the bandits were mainly in cat 2 or 3! And the prestigious competitions for the county are all scratch.

I really know very little about the finer details of handicapping.
		
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Swango1980 said:



			I'm guessing it is because, once you get to Category 1, you could start knocking on the door at playing elite amateur golf, such as County and National golf competitions. I know that, to get to that level, you probably need to be significantly below 5, but best to catch them long before they get closer to that handicap level of scratch and lower.

I doubt the unions are bothered about bandits, the guidelines are there to let individual golf club handicap committees to try and deal with them. A category 2 or 3 golfer is not going to have any impact at the elite level.
		
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 Worth remembering that there will be no Cats under the WHS and only scratch or better men and 2 or better ladies will fall under the 'scrutiny' of county.


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## rulefan (Feb 14, 2020)

sunshine said:



			I'm curious, why only Cat 1 players?

I would have thought that the bandits were mainly in cat 2 or 3! *And the prestigious competitions for the county are all scratch.*

Click to expand...

There is a very high number of potential entries for prestigious competitions and these are the ones that counties and national bodies run.
Clubs can look after themselves for internal comps.


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## rulefan (Feb 14, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			So anybody just using the charts and then applying the percentage for a given competition may come up with a different number than somebody doing the maths for themselves.

That assumes the same charts will be used in CONGU regions to those in the USGA regions
		
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They only show a Course Handicap but the will not be the same around the world. There are two alternative formulae that national authorities may choose from.
In addition the Playing Handicap may be different because Allowances can be varied by Authority.
But if playing outside your authority you abide by the local variant.


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## jim8flog (Feb 14, 2020)

rulefan said:



			They only show a Course Handicap but the will not be the same around the world. There are two alternative formulae that national authorities may choose from.
In addition the Playing Handicap may be different because Allowances can be varied by Authority.
But if playing outside your authority you abide by the local variant.
		
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 From the best of my memory the charts I have found online are pretty much identical to the one shown us on the slides, hence my original comments about my understanding that percentages were applied to a whole number.

Reference was made to the charts being able to be bought direct from England Golf including a photo of a large one for display outside the clubhouse.


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## jim8flog (Feb 14, 2020)

I would add see England Golf Final FAQs Page 3     2) Your Index.  first question


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## rulefan (Feb 14, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			From the best of my memory the charts I have found online are pretty much identical to the one shown us on the slides, hence my original comments about my understanding that percentages were applied to a whole number.

Reference was made to the charts being able to be bought direct from England Golf including a photo of a large one for display outside the clubhouse.
		
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Yes. England Golf has done a deal with Eagle Golf for discounted boards.

The charts you have seen will almost certainly have been from USGA courses and display Course Handicap only. The Course Handicap in GB&I will be different to most other places in the world due to the different formulae in use.
Playing Handicaps will not be on the charts because different forms of play require different %ages to be applied.


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## jim8flog (Feb 14, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Yes. England Golf has done a deal with Eagle Golf for discounted boards.

The charts you have seen will almost certainly have been from USGA courses and display Course Handicap only. The Course Handicap in GB&I will be different to most other places in the world due to the different formulae in use.
Playing Handicaps will not be on the charts because different forms of play require different %ages to be applied.
		
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The point under discussion is at what point in the calculation to the playing handicap is the decimal point dropped and the number increased/decreased to an integer. From the Charts and what England Golf has said in the FAQ it would be after converting a players handicap index to a course handicap and before applying the %s for different comp formats, which is what I said originally and others said I was wrong and the conversion to an integer only came at the end of the calculation.

Given the number of different percentages involved 10, 25, 30 40 50 60 95 (they are the ones I can remember) I just cannot see how a chart system would work easily.


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## rulefan (Feb 14, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			The point under discussion is at what point in the calculation to the playing handicap is the decimal point dropped and the number increased/decreased to an integer. From the Charts and what England Golf has said in the FAQ it would be after converting a players handicap index to a course handicap and before applying the %s for different comp formats, which is what I said originally and others said I was wrong and the conversion to an integer only came at the end of the calculation.

Given the number of different percentages involved 10, 25, 30 40 50 60 95 (they are the ones I can remember) I just cannot see how a chart system would work easily.
		
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I can confirm that the unrounded Course Handicap is used in the Playing Handicap calculation. It was omitted from the EG information apparently in error.
As you say, a chart system would be impossible.
The CONGU Technical team are taking it up with the R&A re the practicality for players. However, the front end software (IG, ClubV1, HM etc) will display the Playing Handicap when a player registers his entry via a PSI or app (when they become available).


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## rulefan (Feb 15, 2020)

lex! said:



			If you 'roll up' under the present system you could notify the intention to post a supplementary score first.
		
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*21/1 Return of a Supplementary Score in a Non Qualifying Competition
Q. *A club committee has declared a competition to be a Non-Qualifying Competition. May competitors play in the competition and concurrently return a Supplementary Score? 
*A.* No.


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## Imurg (Feb 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



*21/1 Return of a Supplementary Score in a Non Qualifying Competition
Q. *A club committee has declared a competition to be a Non-Qualifying Competition. May competitors play in the competition and concurrently return a Supplementary Score?
*A.* No.
		
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Because, for a committee to declare a comp to be NQ there must be a reason - too many temps, shortened course etc..?


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## Swango1980 (Feb 15, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Because, for a committee to declare a comp to be NQ there must be a reason - too many temps, shortened course etc..?
		
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Not necessarily. The Seniors at my club this year decided to play lots of comps as non-qualifier, even though qualifying conditions were present. Why? Because, according to them, too many Seniors get nervous when playing qualifiers, and simply won't play (allegedly). I told them off many times, and I believe they will do things properly this year. It was a nightmare for me at Annual Review, having to go through all these scores and looking to see who needed adjusting potentially, up and down, especially as I don't know many of them so have little else to go on. At least if they were qualifiers, the system can help flag certain players. Anyway, a few of them got a shock in January when they lost their c status. They played well over 3 comps, but not qualifiers. And, they haven't been able to submit supplementary cards this year as weather has put us on many temp greens and tees

What is interesting though: what if a senior turned up to play one of these non qualifiers, but needed to get a card in for handicap. So, before round they request to submit card once over. Do we say no, even though the course is playing under qualifying conditions, but the Committee just decided not to run it as qualifier?


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## rulefan (Feb 15, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			What is interesting though: what if a senior turned up to play one of these non qualifiers, but needed to get a card in for handicap. So, before round they request to submit card once over. Do we say no, even though the course is playing under qualifying conditions, but the Committee just decided not to run it as qualifier?
		
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This is a tricky situation. Currently CONGU expects there to be one handicap committee in a club. The status of a section within the club (seniors, rabbits, tigers etc) has never been formally resolved. 
_The UHS is based on the following fundamental premises:
• every *golf club *or handicapping authority will, whenever possible run stroke play competitions as qualifying competitions, ....
It is against the spirit and intent of the system to adjust the Terms of Competition deliberately, so that it is rendered non-qualifying on a technicality.
Unions have a duty to ensure that Affiliated Clubs discharge their responsibilities in full. Sanctions may be taken against any party that does not observe either the spirit or intent of the system._

However, under the WHS it seems CONGU or EG will be encouraging organised groups to run, what are in effect qualifiers.


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## nickjdavis (Feb 16, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Yes. England Golf has done a deal with Eagle Golf for discounted boards.

The charts you have seen will almost certainly have been from USGA courses and display Course Handicap only. The Course Handicap in GB&I will be different to most other places in the world due to the different formulae in use.
Playing Handicaps will not be on the charts because different forms of play require different %ages to be applied.
		
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The charts in the EG presentation come from English courses and are riddled with errors. 

If as you say in a later post it is confirmed that the decimal course Handicap will be used to calculate Playing Handicap, then the charts are useless and there is no reason to spend £150 on one.


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## rulefan (Feb 16, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			The charts in the EG presentation come from English courses and are riddled with errors.
		
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I can only see one Course Handicap Table in the slides. There is certainly one error. It is spelt as Etham Warren instead of Eltham Warren.
What are the others?


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## rulefan (Feb 16, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The formula above only gives the *Course Handicap*. To get the *Playing Handicap* you have to adjust for the *Handicap Allowance*.
eg 95% for individual medal or stableford
100% for individual match
85% for 4ball stroke/stableford
95% for 4ball match

Click to expand...

*Update:*
90% for 4ball match play


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## bobmac (Feb 16, 2020)

What a shambles.
I'm glad I don't play h/cap golf any more


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## IanMcC (Feb 16, 2020)

rulefan said:



*Update:*
90% for 4ball match play
		
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So 90% of Course handicap to get Playing handicap in a 4 ball match.
Do we still then take 90% difference of playing handicaps, from lowest handicapper, to find out strokes received, as we did under CONGU?


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## User20204 (Feb 16, 2020)

bobmac said:



			What a shambles.
I'm glad I don't play h/cap golf any more
		
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Interestingly my pro asked me about the WHS this afternoon and my thoughts on it, he's not that clued up. I told him I just can't get my head round it all with this course rating etc and what handicap one would be dependant on what tees you play off, just sounds an absolute mess.


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## nickjdavis (Feb 16, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I can only see one Course Handicap Table in the slides. There is certainly one error. It is spelt as Etham Warren instead of Eltham Warren.
What are the others?
		
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Ok....on the E(l)tham Warren slide. Yes the missing L is an error.

The slope for both the yellows and the white tees is shown as 113. The course handicap therefore should be identical whatever the handicap index...but on the white tee you get a course handicap of 4 for handicap indexes of 3.6 to 4.4, on the yellow tees an index of 3.6 to 4.5 will get you a CH of 4. From this point on the charts do not match and continue to diverge until then end. If you look up Eltham Warren on the USGA course rating site, the Slope Index for the Yellow tees is listed as 111.

On the slide show that I've got a copy of, there is an example Rating Table on Page 60 for Reigate Heath GC. Despite differing Slope Ratings for four different tees, all four tees give identical Course Handicaps. The table shows Course Rating and Slopes of 68.2/122; 69.6/125; 68.6/120; 68.6/120 for the White, Yellow, Blue and Red Tees respectively. The USGA website shows 68.2/120; 66.4/118 and 71.4/129 for the White, Yellow and Red Tees (doesn't have a rating for the blue tees). Confusingly, instead of using the term Course Handicap, the term "Course Index" is used.

Also on this table, there is no Handicap Index that ever results in a Course Handicap of zero.

Anyone trying to make sense of the Course Handicap calculations is just going to go round in circles trying to reconcile these "published" tables with the calculations shown elsewhere in the presentation.


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## rulefan (Feb 16, 2020)

OK. I think you have an early version of the slide show.
The Eltham slope for the yellow should be 111 and for the red 122

but I think the slides are supposed to show the principle of the tables rather than real figures


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## lex! (Feb 17, 2020)

rulefan said:



*21/1 Return of a Supplementary Score in a Non Qualifying Competition
Q. *A club committee has declared a competition to be a Non-Qualifying Competition. May competitors play in the competition and concurrently return a Supplementary Score?
*A.* No.
		
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That's nothing to do with the point i was making.

For your handicap to be a fair reflection of your playing ability you should return as many qualifying competition scores as possible. It is not always easy to play in as many competitions as you may like so *you are able to submit supplementary scores.* You can do this at any club of which you are a member and you may do this over 9- or 18-holes. You must check with your club manager or professional – or whoever runs ‘golf’ at your club - which tees you must play off. There will also be some form of ‘sign in’ before you go out to play to indicate your intention to play a supplementary score. You will need someone to mark and sign your card – *just as in a competition. *


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## rulefan (Feb 17, 2020)

It was just a piece of information that some people may not have been aware of. It is marginally related to the point made elsewhere in the thread that organised groups within a club may themselves, under WHS rules, act as a committee for authorised handicap rounds.


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## rulefan (Feb 18, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			So 90% of Course handicap to get Playing handicap in a 4 ball match.
Do we still then take 90% difference of playing handicaps, from lowest handicapper, to find out strokes received, as we did under CONGU?
		
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You calculate each player's Playing Handicap (ie applying the 90%) . Then go from the lowest.


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## rulefan (Feb 18, 2020)

rulefan said:



			When I presented this, I was immediately asked 'How do we know our 1 dec place CH as the charts only show whole numbers'. The EG representative didn't know the answer and my briefing notes gave no clue. I am now awaiting a clear answer from Woodhall Spa.
My guess is they expect the software to sort it out and display it on entry to a comp or pre-registration for a 'casual' score.
		
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I can confirm that all the front end ISV systems (IG, HM, V1 etc) will do all the appropriate Playing Handicap calculations automatically at the point of registration, for both competition and general play.


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## IanMcC (Feb 18, 2020)

rulefan said:



			You calculate each player's Playing Handicap (ie applying the 90%) . Then go from the lowest.
		
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Apologies. Don't fully understand. When you say subtract the lowest is it now 100% of difference from lowest, not 9/10 as it was?


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## Swango1980 (Feb 18, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Apologies. Don't fully understand. When you say subtract the lowest is it now 100% of difference from lowest, not 9/10 as it was?
		
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I suspect you just do the 90% from the start, then that is that. There would be little point doing another calculation after  because you'd be doing 2 calculations which could simply be done in one step


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## rulefan (Feb 18, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Apologies. Don't fully understand. When you say subtract the lowest is it now 100% of difference from lowest, not 9/10 as it was?
		
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Yes. Difference from the lowest Playing Handicap. The 90% was done when you calculated the Playing Handicaps. You don't have another 90%.


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## nickjdavis (Feb 18, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I can confirm that all the front end ISV systems (IG, HM, V1 etc) will do all the appropriate Playing Handicap calculations automatically at the point of registration, for both competition and general play.
		
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So what would the course handicap tables be used for?


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## jim8flog (Feb 18, 2020)

rulefan said:



			You calculate each player's Playing Handicap (ie applying the 90%) . Then go from the lowest.
		
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That again is not what we were shown.

Matchplay was 100% of a players own course handicap.


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## IanMcC (Feb 18, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Yes. Difference from the lowest Playing Handicap. The 90% was done when you calculated the Playing Handicaps. You don't have another 90%.
		
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That is quite a radical change. Previously the lowest handicapper lost nothing. Now the starting threshold is moved down 10%. This must favour the lower handicapped team in the long run, surely, as they will give away less shots.


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## IanMcC (Feb 18, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			That again is not what we were shown.

Matchplay was 100% of a players own course handicap.
		
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I believe singles matchplay is 100%. Pairs is different.


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## jim8flog (Feb 18, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			So what would the course handicap tables be used for?
		
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 I have also made the same comment there appears to be very little gained from charts and they would also have to be very extensive to cover all the different formats of play.
From the charts for actual allowances we were shown you need to know or work 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 and 95% of a decimal number covering all decimal points.
Changing the rules of golf in 2019 was to make it much easier now they want to make it more complicated.

In the office the manager and I were working both ways round for the example shown in the slides and it makes a whole shot difference between the two methods.


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## jim8flog (Feb 18, 2020)

I would add that I find the reliance on a computer system to do it for you somewhat disturbing.

Where I play competitions and matches will start before the office and the pro shop are even open. We do have a computer in the lounge but sometimes this has accidentally been turned off or some non computer literate person has caused it to crash and it requires the office staff to reboot the connection to the network.

For those who worked in engineering it looks like we are all going to need a booklet like the old Zeus charts or book of mathematical tables rather than a single chart to work it all out.


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## IanMcC (Feb 18, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I would add that I find the reliance on a computer system to do it for you somewhat disturbing.

Where I play competitions and matches will start before the office and the pro shop are even open. We do have a computer in the lounge but sometimes this has accidentally been turned off or some non computer literate person has caused it to crash and it requires the office staff to reboot the connection to the network.

For those who worked in engineering it looks like we are all going to need a booklet like the old *Zeus charts* or book of mathematical tables rather than a single chart to work it all out.
		
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Zeus charts was exactly what I thought of.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 18, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			That is quite a radical change. Previously the lowest handicapper lost nothing. Now the starting threshold is moved down 10%. This must favour the lower handicapped team in the long run, surely, as they will give away less shots.
		
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Not quite, you are just doing the 90% first. The end result will still be 90% the difference of the lowest handicapper (I.e. if you take 90 % of everybodies handicap, the differences between them will also be reduced by 90%)


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## IanMcC (Feb 18, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



*Not quite, you are just doing the 90% first*. The end result will still be 90% the difference of the lowest handicapper (I.e. if you take 90 % of *everybodies* handicap, the differences between them will also be reduced by 90%)
		
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Yes, but you didnt take 90% off of the lowest in the past. Nothing was taken off. So you are reducing the datum point. Therefore less shots are conceded to higher handicappers in the long run.


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## nickjdavis (Feb 18, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I have also made the same comment there appears to be very little gained from charts and they would also have to be very extensive to cover all the different formats of play.
From the charts for actual allowances we were shown you need to know or work 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 and 95% of a decimal number covering all decimal points.
Changing the rules of golf in 2019 was to make it much easier now they want to make it more complicated.

In the office the manager and I were working both ways round for the example shown in the slides and it makes a whole shot difference between the two methods.
		
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All players want to do is to quickly look up their handicaps and work out how many shots they get. Today its easy....just look up your handicap on the noticeboard and do some SIMPLE calculations on a whole number

Now you need to take your decimalised handicap index...do some long division by 113 and some multiplication by another 3 digit number....then do some further multiplication of the resultant decimal number by several 10ths depending on format. In the context of this sentence, a simple lookup table like a "course handicap table" makes perfect sense. 5 seconds to look up your index and figure out your course handicap then do the SIMPLE maths on a whole number....and whats more three four or five players could crowd round the table at the same time. 

But no....the plan seems to be to make it complicated. I'm wondering if its all part of a cunning plan to almost co-erce clubs who dont have one, into buying a player entry terminal in the hope that more scores get "logged"!!!

At least for us in the UK its totally new. Imagine being a continental golfer who already are used to using well established course handicap tables (I'm looking at one right now for the Nobilis Course in Turkey)....those poor beggers are going to have to suddenly throw away the tables that theyve relied on for so many years and get their calculators out.


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## nickjdavis (Feb 18, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Yes, but you didnt take 90% off of the lowest in the past. Nothing was taken off. So you are reducing the datum point. Therefore less shots are conceded to higher handicappers in the long run.
		
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Not correct.

4 golfers......6, 12, 17, 25 handicaps.....under the old system of 90% of the difference the shots would be 0, 5, 10, 17.

If you take the 0.9 off everyone first before finding the differences you get 5.4, 10.8, 15.3, 22.5 and the relative differences between these are 0, 5.4, 9.9, 17.1.....so the shots are 0,5,10 and 17. No difference.

Basically its the Mathematical Distributive Law, in that A*(B-C) = (A*B) - (A*C)


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## Swango1980 (Feb 18, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Yes, but you didnt take 90% off of the lowest in the past. Nothing was taken off. So you are reducing the datum point. Therefore less shots are conceded to higher handicappers in the long run.
		
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As Nick brilliantly demonstrated, it isn't really different in the end. You are just doing the 90% bit at a different point, but result is the same. You can either  change everybodies handicap by 90% first, or leave them and do 90% the difference.

If you adjusted everybodies handicap by 90%, then took 90% the difference, you would effectively be double counting the 90% at the expense of the higher handicappers.


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## rulefan (Feb 18, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			That again is not what we were shown.

Matchplay was 100% of a players own course handicap.
		
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We are talking about 4BBB match play. CONGU is 90% of the difference.


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## rulefan (Feb 18, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			But no....the plan seems to be to make it complicated. I'm wondering if its all part of a cunning plan to almost co-erce clubs who dont have one, into buying a player entry terminal in the hope that more scores get "logged"!!!
		
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In effect, clubs will need to install sufficient hardware and the appropriate software in order to be able to use the WHS and get used to the idea it is now 2020.
We are not talking 000's, perhaps a few hundred. It has been said before that financial assistance will be available from England Golf.
But who would benefit from clubs having to buy the extra kit? The profit from the hardware will not cover the costs the ISVs are forking out to update all their software. And certainly my club is not being charged extra by our ISV. Neither England Golf nor the R&A are getting anything out of it.
But yes, it is hoped that more scores will be logged.


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## fenwayrich (Feb 18, 2020)

I went to the seminar at Hollinwell today. Having read quite extensively beforehand I found the theory behind the system relatively easy to understand. I'm not convinced that people who, for good reason, have no interest in the theory will get used to it quickly, but we shall see. Hopefully the software will do most of the work when it is up and running.

One question struck me afterwards. Players are responsible for inputting their score on the day, and their handicap record will be automatically adjusted just after midnight. If it is a competition, card checking and closing down the comp can take place anytime thereafter, as club software (ClubV1, Intelligent Golf etc), runs independently of the Central Database. Question, if there are cards that have been incorrectly input, how do these get adjusted in the player's record? Is it automatic that a club's system updates and corrects the Central Database, or is it more complicated?


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## Swango1980 (Feb 18, 2020)

fenwayrich said:



			I went to the seminar at Hollinwell today. Having read quite extensively beforehand I found the theory behind the system relatively easy to understand. I'm not convinced that people who, for good reason, have no interest in the theory will get used to it quickly, but we shall see. Hopefully the software will do most of the work when it is up and running.

One question struck me afterwards. Players are responsible for inputting their score on the day, and their handicap record will be automatically adjusted just after midnight. If it is a competition, card checking and closing down the comp can take place anytime thereafter, as club software (ClubV1, Intelligent Golf etc), runs independently of the Central Database. Question, if there are cards that have been incorrectly input, how do these get adjusted in the player's record? Is it automatic that a club's system updates and corrects the Central Database, or is it more complicated?
		
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Good question. Just to add: what if score entered incorrectly  player plays competition following day, then when their first score is corrected the third day, it is discovered they would have been playing off too high a handicap the second day?


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## nickjdavis (Feb 18, 2020)

Technically....there is no need whatsoever to buy new equipment to support the WHS. The new gear is only really required to support the "pre-registration" of players intentions to go out and play and for them to be able to enter their own scores. Currently there are procedures to support this "pre-registration" whether a player is playing a supplementary or in a qualifying competition. The scores can be entered by a committee member after a round has been played. There is no real reason why these same procedures cannot carry on being used under the WHS...ergo there is no real reason to invest in a PSI terminal.

A Few Hundred £££ will put a severe dent in our committees cash reserves....but then there will also be the need to build a more permanent, secure home/office location for the handicapping computer...not to mention the networking infrastructure to link it and the PSI terminal together.

as for England Golfs financial assistance...if I remember correctly from what was said at an early presentation...this assistance was available to buy Club V1 terminals....not terminals of other ISV's.

...and are the ISVs having to really do a lot of software updating? If I understand it correctly all of the handicapping changes, course condition adjustment calculations...its all going to be managed centrally....effectively leaving the ISV's to manage something that is little more than "competition management" software. I reckon they're going to strip out a whole load of code, making their software a lot less complex and easier to maintain, so I would hope they wouldn't charge more for doing less.


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## IanMcC (Feb 18, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Not correct.

4 golfers......6, 12, 17, 25 handicaps.....under the old system of 90% of the difference the shots would be 0, 5, 10, 17.

If you take the 0.9 off everyone first before finding the differences you get 5.4, 10.8, 15.3, 22.5 and the relative differences between these are 0, 5.4, 9.9, 17.1.....so the shots are 0,5,10 and 17. No difference.

Basically its the Mathematical Distributive Law, in that A*(B-C) = (A*B) - (A*C)
		
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 Brilliant. I stand corrected, and trust this works for all eventualities.


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## rulefan (Feb 19, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			...and are the ISVs having to really do a lot of software updating? If I understand it correctly all of the handicapping changes, course condition adjustment calculations...its all going to be managed centrally....effectively leaving the ISV's to manage something that is little more than "competition management" software. I reckon they're going to strip out a whole load of code, making their software a lot less complex and easier to maintain, so I would hope they wouldn't charge more for doing less.
		
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The updating is primarily in the area of uploading and downloading appropriate information to and from the WHS database. This is a quite different interface from the current CDH system. Competition management will not change much except for holding the slope and bogey ratings, calculating the correct playing handicaps and, I believe, providing an interface for players and club officials to access the player record in the WHS DB.
Maybe not a lot but still a cost.


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## jim8flog (Feb 19, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			As Nick brilliantly demonstrated, it isn't really different in the end. You are just doing the 90% bit at a different point, but result is the same.
		
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But that is one  of the points it *is different* in the end depending what the decimal point figure is . As already said it can make a one shot difference to the playing handicap by rounding up/down the playing handicap or the course handicap.


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## nickjdavis (Feb 19, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Brilliant. I stand corrected, and trust this works for all eventualities.
		
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Well... Its perhaps brilliant until you look at the opportunity for error...

Because we all know that once the calculation to get to 5.4, 10.8, 15.3 and 22.5 is done, golfers will then round these to 5,11,15 and 23 and then subtract the lowest ,giving shots of 0, 6,10 and 18.  (edit: I see that whilst I was composing the text below that jim8flog has made a similar point)

One thing I would like to make clear....many of my posts on this topic are seemingly critical and do little but pick holes in the WHS and its processes. Many folks might reach the not unreasonable conclusion that I'm some sort of Flat Earther, resistant to change, and am anti the WHS.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I think the WHS has the potential to be a very good system. Golf has long needed a means of normalising handicaps so that a handicap golfer can play at another course and receive the appropriate number of shots, to take into account the relative difficulties of the course he is playing and the course where most of his handicap is built.

However, what I do rail against is the somewhat lack of consideration given to smaller clubs, often "staffed" by volunteers who actually have a day job away from golf...clubs that do not have a permanent committee presence every day at the course. I dont like the imposition of processes that potentially complicate the lives of such volunteers and add uneccessary cost. Given that it is those same volunteers who will be responsible for communicating the machinations of the WHS to the wider club membership I struggle with the lack of clarity of information coming from higher authorities. Poorly written and error strewn communications, presented by people who are also clearly ill at ease with the new system does nothing to allay my fears.

I do appreciate the candid discussion we can have here and the insight provided by some people who might be "a bit more in the know" than others.

I'm sorry If I sometimes come across as an argumentative arse. I've only got the best interests of the membership ay my club at heart.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 19, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			But that is one  of the points it *is different* in the end depending what the decimal point figure is . As already said it can make a one shot difference to the playing handicap by rounding up/down the playing handicap or the course handicap.
		
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OK, mathematically speaking, whichever way you do it, you are effectively doing the same thing (in other words, you are using a different technique to come to the same mathematical outcome (i.e. it's not suddenly giving higher handicappers a better advantage than now because you are not taking 90% the difference, you are.

However, you are also correct that, in practical terms you could come up with a different whole number in the shot difference calculations, depending on where the decimal point lies. I fully agree with you on that point, and it is based on the fact that rounding of numbers will happen at different points in the calculation, which will lead to a margin of error in the final result when one method is used over another. I guess similar to, in singles, calculating course handicap in one calculation, then using a rounded value to get playing handicap, rather than doing everything on one go and rounding at the end.

So, yes, whichever method is used, the authorities need to make sure that we all use a consistent method. And, it is just a bit more "complicated" than before because of decimal points in course handicap and how those are translated into playing handicap (as currently, all we do is take the whole number of shot difference and take 90%, we are never worried about what our decimal handicap is.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 19, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Well... Its perhaps brilliant until you look at the opportunity for error...

Because we all know that once the calculation to get to 5.4, 10.8, 15.3 and 22.5 is done, golfers will then round these to 5,11,15 and 23 and then subtract the lowest ,giving shots of 0, 6,10 and 18.  (edit: I see that whilst I was composing the text below that jim8flog has made a similar point)

One thing I would like to make clear....many of my posts on this topic are seemingly critical and do little but pick holes in the WHS and its processes. Many folks might reach the not unreasonable conclusion that I'm some sort of Flat Earther, resistant to change, and am anti the WHS.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I think the WHS has the potential to be a very good system. Golf has long needed a means of normalising handicaps so that a handicap golfer can play at another course and receive the appropriate number of shots, to take into account the relative difficulties of the course he is playing and the course where most of his handicap is built.

However, what I do rail against is the somewhat lack of consideration given to smaller clubs, often "staffed" by volunteers who actually have a day job away from golf...clubs that do not have a permanent committee presence every day at the course. I dont like the imposition of processes that potentially complicate the lives of such volunteers and add uneccessary cost. Given that it is those same volunteers who will be responsible for communicating the machinations of the WHS to the wider club membership I struggle with the lack of clarity of information coming from higher authorities. Poorly written and error strewn communications, presented by people who are also clearly ill at ease with the new system does nothing to allay my fears.

I do appreciate the candid discussion we can have here and the insight provided by some people who might be "a bit more in the know" than others.

I'm sorry If I sometimes come across as an argumentative arse. I've only got the best interests of the membership ay my club at heart.
		
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No problem in explaining yourself. Nothing wrong with being overly critical. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.  I think it is a good idea to be overly critical at times, or be devil's advocate, because it is the best way to identify potential issues, even if they are very minor. At least it may lead to a chance of something being done about it, or putting it on people's radar to look out for.

I'm worried that the promotion of it makes it seem like such a vastly greater system, and it is clear to me that golfers have got the impression they'll simply get loads more shots at harder courses, simple. All these issues you have raised (and I have elsewhere) hopefully highlight that, there is a pretty good chance that it could be confusing to golfers in many respects. I am a lot more comfortable now in explaining the benefit of making it fairer on relatively easy / hard courses between low and high handicappers, by the accidental realisation on the 18 hole Par 3 thread. But, like Brexit (sorry), it's unlikely that WHS will make every single aspect of handicapping "better" than what we have now. There are bound to be drawbacks


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## Vikingman (Feb 19, 2020)

I am pretty new to all this and one of my concern's is supplementary cards. So far I have never encountered any. My understanding is that a supplementary card can be submitted at any time subject to conforming to the qualifying conditions e.g pre registered, played under qualifying rules on a measured course ect. If more than eight cards are submitted on a particular day the the PCC comes into operation. Is this correct?  However if this system results in a lot more cards being entered how do we keep on top of it all. As a volunteer I don't want to be up there every day checking cards but if we end up with backlogs of three or four days will the handicap indexes not suffer if cards are incorrectly entered? Could we end up with people playing off wrong handicaps?


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## rulefan (Feb 19, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			it's unlikely that WHS will make every single aspect of handicapping "better" than what we have now. There are bound to be drawbacks
		
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Just to pick up this point.
The WHS wasn't designed with the intention of making CONGU (or any other specific system) better. It is primarily about commonality around the world. The initial publicity from the R&A doesn't mention 'better' 

_The World Handicap System (WHS) aims to bring six different handicap systems together into a single set of Rules for Handicapping, enabling golfers of different abilities to play and compete on a fair and equal basis, no matter how or where they play._
_While the six existing handicap systems have generally worked very well locally, on a global basis, their different characteristics have sometimes resulted in inconsistency, with players of the same ability ending up with slightly different handicaps. This has sometimes resulted in unnecessary difficulties and challenges for golfers competing in handicap events or for tournament administrators.  A single WHS will pave the way to consistency and portability._

As it happens, IMO they have managed to pick out the best bits of current systems but inevitably that means that some bits are 'strange' or sometimes 'inconvenient' or 'awkward'. I think some here will be aware of the hoohah in the US when, in anticipation of WHS, the USGA declared that in order to 'qualify', casual round scores had to be accompanied. But they'll get over it.


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## jim8flog (Feb 19, 2020)

Vikingman said:



			I am pretty new to all this and one of my concern's is supplementary cards. So far I have never encountered any. My understanding is that a supplementary card can be submitted at any time subject to conforming to the qualifying conditions e.g pre registered, played under qualifying rules on a measured course ect. If more than eight cards are submitted on a particular day the the PCC comes into operation. Is this correct?  However if this system results in a lot more cards being entered how do we keep on top of it all. As a volunteer I don't want to be up there every day checking cards but if we end up with backlogs of three or four days will the handicap indexes not suffer if cards are incorrectly entered? Could we end up with people playing off wrong handicaps?
		
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 You are correct in that 8 will invoke a PCC.

When it comes to timings it is a subject I brought up at the workshop and the response I got was that timing was not important. The point I brought up was we sometimes have a computer failure mid comp at a weekend and not all scores are entered on the PSI therefore what happens about the daily PCC. The answer was that the scores entered before the computer failure would still be 'put up' by the system for the PCC calculation and the scores entered on Monday would be put up for the Monday calculation.

We also will have supplementary scores played Friday to Sunday which with our current system will not be entered on to the PSI until Monday earliest.  

We are looking at IG system which will allow players to input their own SSs but what we noticed straight away that it appears to be only possible to do this via a mobile phone using the App.


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## rulefan (Feb 19, 2020)

Vikingman said:



			If more than eight cards are submitted on a particular day the the PCC comes into operation. Is this correct?  However if this system results in a lot more cards being entered how do we keep on top of it all. As a volunteer I don't want to be up there every day checking cards but if we end up with backlogs of three or four days will the handicap indexes not suffer if cards are incorrectly entered? Could we end up with people playing off wrong handicaps?
		
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The eight applies to all type of rounds played by anyone on the day. I doubt that you will often see 8 general play scores returned in one day. 
Do you currently check all supplementary cards before they are entered? Do you currently check all competition cards before they are entered? If the answers are different, why?


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## rulefan (Feb 19, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			We are looking at IG system which will allow players to input their own SSs but what we noticed straight away that it appears to be only possible to do this via a mobile phone using the App.
		
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I think (really I mean am sure) IG will change their PC front end. I know the other major ISVs are doing that.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 19, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Just to pick up this point.
The WHS wasn't designed with the intention of making CONGU (or any other specific system) better. It is primarily about commonality around the world. The initial publicity from the R&A doesn't mention 'better'

_The World Handicap System (WHS) aims to bring six different handicap systems together into a single set of Rules for Handicapping, enabling golfers of different abilities to play and compete on a fair and equal basis, no matter how or where they play._
_While the six existing handicap systems have generally worked very well locally, on a global basis, their different characteristics have sometimes resulted in inconsistency, with players of the same ability ending up with slightly different handicaps. This has sometimes resulted in unnecessary difficulties and challenges for golfers competing in handicap events or for tournament administrators.  A single WHS will pave the way to consistency and portability._

As it happens, IMO they have managed to pick out the best bits of current systems but inevitably that means that some bits are 'strange' or sometimes 'inconvenient' or 'awkward'. I think some here will be aware of the hoohah in the US when, in anticipation of WHS, the USGA declared that in order to 'qualify', casual round scores had to be accompanied. But they'll get over it.
		
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Agreed, I'm not saying that we are necessarily being told that everything will be better, more that naturally the positive elements to it will be highlighted much more often, and the potential drawbacks may therefore be unexpected. It was more to do with the perception of golfers in general more than anything else. I've no doubt that within the authorities themselves, I'm sure individuals have debated as to what the "best bits" are, and I'm sure compromise was required to come up with a final result.


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## nickjdavis (Feb 19, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			You are correct in that 8 will invoke a PCC.

When it comes to timings it is a subject I brought up at the workshop and the response I got was that timing was not important. The point I brought up was we sometimes have a computer failure mid comp at a weekend and not all scores are entered on the PSI therefore what happens about the daily PCC. The answer was that the scores entered before the computer failure would still be 'put up' by the system for the PCC calculation and the _scores entered on Monday would be put up for the Monday calculation._

.
		
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This is the sort of stuff that defies logic and is beyond my comprehension.

How on Earth can scores made on, say, a Sunday be included for the PCC calculation for a Monday...there is just no logic to this. What happens if Sunday's weather was raging storm Dennis and Monday's saw a gentle zephyr wafting across a sun blessed links?

By all means have the "late" cards adjusted by whatever the PCC was for the day they were played on (even though they cannot be retrospectively used to calculate the PCC for that day), but to have them contribute to the PCC for a different day is just daft.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 19, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			You are correct in that 8 will invoke a PCC.

When it comes to timings it is a subject I brought up at the workshop and the response I got was that timing was not important. The point I brought up was we sometimes have a computer failure mid comp at a weekend and not all scores are entered on the PSI therefore what happens about the daily PCC. The answer was that the scores entered before the computer failure would still be 'put up' by the system for the PCC calculation and the *scores entered on Monday would be put up for the Monday calculation.*

We also will have supplementary scores played Friday to Sunday which with our current system will not be entered on to the PSI until Monday earliest. 

We are looking at IG system which will allow players to input their own SSs but what we noticed straight away that it appears to be only possible to do this via a mobile phone using the App.
		
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The bit I highlighted causes a little concern. For example, what if Sunday the weather conditions were absolutely horrific, and then on Monday it was a beautiful day (or vice versa) with different pin positions. Would seem a bit unfair to use Sunday's scores in Monday's PCC calculation?


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## Swango1980 (Feb 19, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The eight applies to all type of rounds played by anyone on the day. I doubt that you will often see 8 general play scores returned in one day.
Do you currently check all supplementary cards before they are entered? Do you currently check all competition cards before they are entered? If the answers are different, why?
		
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In answers to those, yes.

With supplementary cards, I enter them as handicap secretary. But, if the player enters them, I believe this does nothing to their handicap until the handicap secretary verifies the score on Club V1. In terms of competitions, nothing happens to their handicap or CSS until the competition is closed. Scores are checked before this is done. Even if there was an error, the competition can simply be reopen, score adjusted, and everything, including CSS is recalculated accordingly.


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## rulefan (Feb 19, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			This is the sort of stuff that defies logic and is beyond my comprehension.

How on Earth can scores made on, say, a Sunday be included for the PCC calculation for a Monday...there is just no logic to this. What happens if Sunday's weather was raging storm Dennis and Monday's saw a gentle zephyr wafting across a sun blessed links?

By all means have the "late" cards adjusted by whatever the PCC was for the day they were played on (even though they cannot be retrospectively used to calculate the PCC for that day), but to have them contribute to the PCC for a different day is just daft.
		
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I don't think jim8flog is correct.   The information given to him* is *wrong.
The late entry scores will be adjusted by the PCC for the day played. They will not affect the PCC for the day of entry


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## nickjdavis (Feb 19, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I don't think jim8flog is correct.
The late entry scores will be adjusted by the PCC for the day played. They will not affect the PCC for the day of entry
		
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But the point is....it's not jim8flog who is wrong.

It is the people doing the presentation who provided that answer to him, who are wrong....and thats the stuff that worries me....the people on high who present the information dont know the answers.


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## bobmac (Feb 19, 2020)

Thank goodness, a new simple, better, straight forward, universal h/cap system that will be easy to implement and everyone will understand from day one...........................
.............no-one ever said.


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## rulefan (Feb 19, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			It is the people doing the presentation who provided that answer to him, who are wrong....and thats the stuff that worries me....the people on high who present the information dont know the answers.
		
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I agree. It's not necessarily their fault. The dissemination of information has been poor. IMO there have been some major problems. 
Primarily, EG is under resourced for such a major information roll out. The initial phase was started too soon and the presentations were not tested by people experienced in the field. 
Fortunately, there should be time to correct and amplify things before proper presentations are made to club members and the system kicks in.
I think there is also an issue with the expectations of the workshop designers and many attendees. In parts there was too much detail and in others too little. I felt that attendees were expecting to go back to their clubs and pass on what they had been told. But much of what we had to present was not relevant to the average member and possibly not properly understood by the attendee. eg the details on soft and hard caps. 
Hopefully the information and presentation packs that club officials are scheduled to get will be pitched at members and not administrators. And the in the meantime, hopefully further clear information will be issued retrospectively to workshop attendees. We have had a few bits and pieces so far but there doesn't seem to be a coordinated process.
However, I think it fair to add that CONGU 's implementing late may be an an advantage. The CONGU technical committee are still meeting and looking at some of the fine tuning options available in the light of other authorities' experiences having implemented already and queries from experienced handicap administrators.


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## rulefan (Feb 19, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Thank goodness, a new simple, better, straight forward, universal h/cap system that will be easy to implement and everyone will understand from day one...........................
.............no-one ever said.



Click to expand...

And no one ever claimed.

But who really understands how CSS and cat to cat adjustments work?


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## Swango1980 (Feb 19, 2020)

rulefan said:



			And no one ever claimed.

But who really understands how CSS and cat to cat adjustments work?
		
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I agree that no one really knows hows CSS is calculated. Although, you can cancel that out with the PCC calculation in WHS. I think everything else in the current system is either easily understood, or at the least fairly easy for a handicap secretary to explain. A lot of potential issues discussed on this thread would not really be an issue, or so much of an issue, in the current system. There are other things as well, such as:

In the current system, a player will generally know that, if they have a bad round they'll go up 0.1 (and a handicap secretary can explain what score this would occur at, or why it didn't go up 0.1 if it happened to be reductions only). If they get a good score, it can be explained to them why their handicap went down by a certain amount by simply comparing their score to CSS and knowing their category. A golfer with reasonable knowledge will easily be able to predict what will happen to their handicap regardless of score, and subject to the final CSS. However, with WHS, this won't really be possible. Yes, you can explain that it is the best 8 scores out of 20, averaged. But, without knowing all 20 scores, you wouldn't be able to speculate any change in handicap really. And, players will be going out blind, in the sense that regardless of how they are playing, they won't really know what will happen to their handicap until it is changed at midnight. Unless the technology is updated, for example, to indicate to a player what the potential outcomes to their handicap may be for a range of scores in their next round? Although, you'd still be relying on technology for this.

The concern overall is essentially, not what is claimed, but how golfers in general will react. Yes, there will be weaknesses or difficulties. But, if general golfers get the impression from November 2020 that they are confused by certain elements, they are obviously going to compare it to what we have now, and it could potentially result in a lot of frustration if they are really turned off by it and questioning why on earth it was brought in at all. I'm trying to think of every possible negative aspect that I can, so that when and if anyone brings up the same topic after November 2020 at my club, I might actually have some sort of positive spin to put on it.


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## upsidedown (Feb 19, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			In the current system, a player will generally know that, if they have a bad round they'll go up 0.1 (and a handicap secretary can explain what score this would occur at, or why it didn't go up 0.1 if it happened to be reductions only). If they get a good score, it can be explained to them why their handicap went down by a certain amount by simply comparing their score to CSS and knowing their category. A golfer with reasonable knowledge will easily be able to predict what will happen to their handicap regardless of score, and subject to the final CSS. However, with WHS, this won't really be possible. Yes, you can explain that it is the best 8 scores out of 20, averaged. But, without knowing all 20 scores, you wouldn't be able to speculate any change in handicap really. And, players will be going out blind, in the sense that regardless of how they are playing, they won't really know what will happen to their handicap until it is changed at midnight. Unless the technology is updated, for example, to indicate to a player what the potential outcomes to their handicap may be for a range of scores in their next round? Although, you'd still be relying on technology for this.
		
Click to expand...

From my own personal perspective when playing under the NZ version , I knew exactly what my best 10 scores were  and what score I'd have to shoot to get a handicap cut . Most playing partners who were interested also knew what theirs were to ( mainly Brits) but there was also the guys who couldn't  care less and took what score they had, Kiwis and those Brits who had totally adjusted to the Kiwi lifestyle of "She'll be right "


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## rulefan (Feb 19, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, you can explain that it is the best 8 scores out of 20, averaged. But, without knowing all 20 scores, you wouldn't be able to speculate any change in handicap really. And, players will be going out blind, in the sense that regardless of how they are playing, they won't really know what will happen to their handicap until it is changed at midnight. Unless the technology is updated, for example, to indicate to a player what the potential outcomes to their handicap may be for a range of scores in their next round? Although, you'd still be relying on technology for this.
		
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That might be an issue in the short term but any change to their handicap will be minimal with an averaging system (unless they have an unusually exceptionally high or low score).
But would it matter about knowing possible outcomes before play? They are obliged by the rules to play their best.
If everywhere else in the world, they have managed to understand and cope with the same averaging system for decades, why can't we? 

*Edit:*
Just seen upsidedown's post. If people standing on their head can do it, normal people can.


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## rosecott (Feb 19, 2020)

rulefan said:



			And no one ever claimed.

But who really understands how CSS and cat to cat adjustments work?
		
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CSS is not rocket science. With a simple little spreadsheet set-up and the tables in the CONGU manual, it's fairly straightforward. I only use the Handicapmaster software and you don't even need the spreadsheet as you can call up for every competition the table showing the calculation.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 19, 2020)

rulefan said:



			That might be an issue in the short term but any change to their handicap will be minimal with an averaging system (unless they have an unusually exceptionally high or low score).
But would it matter about knowing possible outcomes before play? They are obliged by the rules to play their best.
If everywhere else in the world, they have managed to understand and cope with the same averaging system for decades, why can't we? 

Click to expand...

We can. Not saying we won't. But, I'm guessing the rest of the world didn't have any comparison to make to an alternative system, they just got on with the system that was there? And I'm not really questioning the need to know what a handicap will change to based on the fact a golfer may change their playing style to achieve that (i.e. deviously put on the brakes and not score well). I'm more mentioning because, simply speaking, it is nice to know what the change will be, especially if you are on a good score. If golfers have to wait until the next day, it might just seem a little more like a dark art.

In terms of changes to handicap being minimal, I don't agree. They might be, but not necessarily. I've already worked out if I shoot 4 reasonably poor rounds my handicap would go up by 2 shots, based on my score history. Although other times there could be no change at all if my oldest scores were also poor. Or, take the following example, with a fairly tight range of best 8 scores:

+5, +6, +6, +8, +9, +10, +11, +12. That is an average of +8.4 (assume these are already "sloped", to simplify the point.

If I went out and shot +5 next round, my handicap could go to +7.5, as it would replace the +12 round. However, if my score from 21 rounds ago was one of the +5's, my handicap would simply stay at +8.4 despite the good round (and obviously, the handicap would be somewhere in between if the score replaced any of the other 8 scores in my previous best 8).

If I had a shocker, then my handicap may well stay at +8.4. But, if I then lost one of my best 8 which becomes 21 rounds ago, my handicap would not only depend on which score I "lost", but what by next best score would have been. So, if my next best score was +13, and I lost the +5 round, then my handicap would go from 8.4 to 9.4 (quite a big jump up).

I'm not suggesting anything is wrong with handicap changes like this, it is just the way the system works. All I am saying is, it would be somewhat confusing to really know what is going on and I think most golfers would just have to put 100% faith in the system and just not worry about fully understanding it


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## yandabrown (Feb 19, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm not suggesting anything is wrong with handicap changes like this, it is just the way the system works. All I am saying is, it would be somewhat confusing to really know what is going on and I think most golfers would just have to put 100% faith in the system and just not worry about fully understanding it
		
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If you want to do some simple maths I reckon you go up/down 0.125 for each score difference. Generally I only need to know about the lowest one I have of the 8 and if I have beaten that can take off the appropriate number of 0.125s. Occasionally, when the 20th oldest is one of my best 8 and was about to disappear, I would also need to know the next best of my currently non-counting rounds.
So that's 2 at most and 1 in most cases? I guess the difficulty is that they could change every week. I suspect that I'll probably just rely on an app


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## williamalex1 (Feb 19, 2020)

rulefan said:



I don't think jim8flog is correct.   The information given to him* is *wrong.
The late entry scores will be adjusted by the PCC for the day played. They will not affect the PCC for the day of entry
		
Click to expand...

PM sent


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## williamalex1 (Feb 19, 2020)

Many years ago  I would often play 2 qualifying events on the same day, 1st a medal at my home course first thing in the morning, the 2nd at an away open at a nearby course in the afternoon.
I was able to self adjust my H/C downwards between rounds [ if required ]  using the SS when the CSS wasn't available,
can this be done in the WHS  ?


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## Swango1980 (Feb 19, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Many years ago  I would often play 2 qualifying events on the same day, 1st a medal at my home course first thing in the morning, the 2nd at an away open at a nearby course in the afternoon.
I was able to self adjust my H/C downwards between rounds [ if required ]  using the SS when the CSS wasn't available,
can this be done in the WHS  ?
		
Click to expand...

Nope. As far as I'm aware, you just play off the same handicap all day. Good if you arranged a match play knock out in the afternoon I suppose


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## williamalex1 (Feb 19, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Nope. As far as I'm aware, you just play off the same handicap all day. Good if you arranged a match play knock out in the afternoon I suppose
		
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Would previously been accused of cheating if you didn't cut yourself after a really good score


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## Vikingman (Feb 19, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The eight applies to all type of rounds played by anyone on the day. I doubt that you will often see 8 general play scores returned in one day.
Do you currently check all supplementary cards before they are entered? Do you currently check all competition cards before they are entered? If the answers are different, why?
		
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Like I said, I am relatively new to this and so far personally I've never had to deal with any supplementary cards.  Going forward I would expect to start dealing with them and the nature of the WHS indicates to me that we may see more of them. I check all competition cards currently and would expect to do the same with supplementary cards, hence my question.


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## Imurg (Feb 19, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Nope. As far as I'm aware, you just play off the same handicap all day. Good if you arranged a match play knock out in the afternoon I suppose
		
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This is what's concerned me all along..
Play a medal in the morning, shoot the lights out and no change to your handicap when you play a matchplay KO in the afternoon.
Currently you cut yourself against SSS for the afternoon match but, unless you know exactly what your morning score does to your index, you're stuck.
Potentially playing off an incorrect handicap - Oooh the potential for many committee decisions....
I suppose you could play off an incorrect handicap currently as CSS could change the cut but at least you're going through a recognised procedure 
Is there a process that can cope with this scenario?


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## Swango1980 (Feb 19, 2020)

Imurg said:



			This is what's concerned me all along..
Play a medal in the morning, shoot the lights out and no change to your handicap when you play a matchplay KO in the afternoon.
Currently you cut yourself against SSS for the afternoon match but, unless you know exactly what your morning score does to your index, you're stuck.
Potentially playing off an incorrect handicap - Oooh the potential for many committee decisions....
I suppose you could play off an incorrect handicap currently as CSS could change the cut but at least you're going through a recognised procedure
Is there a process that can cope with this scenario?
		
Click to expand...

I think the simple answer will be, you will no longer have any obligation to adjust your own handicap. Purely wait until the system does it for you, so you will not get a DQ for playing off a higher handicap in 2nd round.

I was wondering, if a club had a comp on Saturday, but a handicap league match on Sunday, could they delay enter saturday scores for players who did well in comp on Saturday to ensure they play off higher handicaps on Sunday? Now, I know that sounds dodgy, so would be very very unlikely. But, I have known in past clubs not close the comp until after match on sunday and therefore play off higher handicaps in match. Maybe unintentional of course.


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## rulefan (Feb 19, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Many years ago  I would often play 2 qualifying events on the same day, 1st a medal at my home course first thing in the morning, the 2nd at an away open at a nearby course in the afternoon.
I was able to self adjust my H/C downwards between rounds [ if required ]  using the SS when the CSS wasn't available,
can this be done in the WHS  ?
		
Click to expand...

_In a situation when a new round is played before the player’s Handicap Index has been updated, including when multiple rounds are played on the same day, it is
recommended that the player uses their existing Handicap Index. However, in certain circumstances, the Committee in charge of the competition (or the
Handicap Committee) has the discretion to decide what Playing Handicap the player should use._

_The Committee should consider all of the information available before deciding whether to adjust the player’s Playing Handicap, including what impact the score
may have had on the player's Handicap Index and whether the player would obtain any unfair advantage because their Handicap Index has not been updated._


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## Swango1980 (Feb 19, 2020)

Cool, up to the Committee then. Once you finish your first round, try and avoid any interaction with a Committee member before you go out for second round. In particular, give the handicap secretary a very wide berth haha


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## Imurg (Feb 19, 2020)

Although it's highly unlikely to happen to me as I wouldn't play 36 in a day, I would feel quite aggrieved if one of my opponents was playing off a shot or two higher handicap than he should...especially in a tight match .


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## williamalex1 (Feb 19, 2020)

So wouldn't you possibly be writing the wrong H/C on your score card ?


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## Swango1980 (Feb 19, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			So wouldn't you possibly be writing the wrong H/C on your score card ?
		
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Not if Committee haven't told him to play off a lower handicap surely? Otherwise he is free to play off higher Index it seems


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## rulefan (Feb 19, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Although it's highly unlikely to happen to me as I wouldn't play 36 in a day, I would feel quite aggrieved if one of my opponents was playing off a shot or two higher handicap than he should...especially in a tight match .
		
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If he would have gone up a shot or two he must have had a pretty tremendous round


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## bobmac (Feb 20, 2020)

rulefan said:



			And no one ever claimed.
		
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Don't you think that's what the average golfer wants?
If the new system isn't an improvement on the old system, why change it?


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## rulefan (Feb 20, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Don't you think that's what the average golfer wants?
If the new system isn't an improvement on the old system, why change it?
		
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Apart from the fact that all the world authorities agree that the averaging system is better at getting a true and fair handicap than the ratchet system see this

https://www.randa.org/en/worldhandicapsystem/whyaworldhandicapsystem


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## Swango1980 (Feb 20, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Apart from the fact that all the world authorities agree that the averaging system is better at getting a true and fair handicap than the ratchet system see this

https://www.randa.org/en/worldhandicapsystem/whyaworldhandicapsystem

Click to expand...

Just out of interest, did that truly consider what the average golfer wants? Yes, they can sell it to the average golfer that is fairer, although that doesn't necessarily mean the average golfer will see that when it is in place. Possibly, the average golfer in other parts of the world will adapt much better / quicker because it is probably similar to what they are already used to. But, maybe in the UK adapting to it will be different. 

My instinct from the start was always that, the UK was the sacrificial lamb. In fact, at the workshop at Woodhall 2 or 3 years ago, it was pretty much suggested that the UK had been forced to go along the lines of the USPGA handicap system, somewhat reluctantly, but were at least fighting to get as much in there as possible (e.g. the PCC calculation given the weather in UK is so variable) to have it adapted. Now, not saying that was the opinion of everyone at England Golf, but at least the presenter at the time.


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## bobmac (Feb 20, 2020)

Is there much difference between the new WHS and the present American handicapping system?


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## Swango1980 (Feb 20, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Is there much difference between the new WHS and the present American handicapping system?
		
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I'm sure someone will go through the detail, as I'm not well versed. But, as far as I am aware, the present American system is different in that:


I believe you are strongly encourage (if not must) to enter ALL scores, from all types of play, meaning you need to make up a score if you don't finish a hole. With WHS, the scores that count for handicap will be exactly the same as now (i.e. singles stroke play comps and supplementary cards if you wish, under qualifying conditions). Although, that may be a regional thing over here, in America WHS may still allow them to enter similar to they do now over there?
I believe the system is the same (i.e. average best x scores in last y rounds), but I think x is different. It will be 8 for WHS, I think it may be 6 in the US system now?
I don't think the current American system has a course adjustment factor at the moment (PCC)
I'm sure there are other things. However, apart from addition of PCC and the fact that there may be a slightly different number of rounds averages to get handicap, I suspect American golfers may not really notice much difference at all during the transition?


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## rulefan (Feb 20, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm sure someone will go through the detail, as I'm not well versed. But, as far as I am aware, the present American system is different in that:


I believe you are strongly encourage (if not must) to enter ALL scores, from all types of play, meaning you need to make up a score if you don't finish a hole. With WHS, the scores that count for handicap will be exactly the same as now (i.e. singles stroke play comps and supplementary cards if you wish, under qualifying conditions). Although, that may be a regional thing over here, in America WHS may still allow them to enter similar to they do now over there?
I believe the system is the same (i.e. average best x scores in last y rounds), but I think x is different. It will be 8 for WHS, I think it may be 6 in the US system now?
I don't think the current American system has a course adjustment factor at the moment (PCC)
I'm sure there are other things. However, apart from addition of PCC and the fact that there may be a slightly different number of rounds averages to get handicap, I suspect American golfers may not really notice much difference at all during the transition?
		
Click to expand...

The US previously didn't use Net Double Bogey but a couple of odd processes. Estimated Score if not holed out and Maximum Score depending on handicap of player.
Previously 10 from last 20
They did not have an equivalent to CSS/PCC
They had previously tightened up the requirement for general play scores in anticipation.
The formula for calculating Course Handicap is different now.
Handicaps will be updated daily rather than twice a month


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## jim8flog (Feb 20, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			Many years ago  I would often play 2 qualifying events on the same day, 1st a medal at my home course first thing in the morning, the 2nd at an away open at a nearby course in the afternoon.
I was able to self adjust my H/C downwards between rounds [ if required ]  using the SS when the CSS wasn't available,
can this be done in the WHS  ?
		
Click to expand...

 It is a question I specifically asked at the workshop and the answer was given that there will be no self adjustment under the WHS.


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## bobmac (Feb 20, 2020)

Thanks for the replies guys, but I still don't know if there is much difference between the new WHS and the present American handicapping system?


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## williamalex1 (Feb 20, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Thanks for the replies guys, but I still don't know if there is much difference between the new WHS and the present American handicapping system?
		
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With your new image, are going to play in the States


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## IanMcC (Feb 20, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Cool, up to the Committee then. Once you finish your first round, try and avoid any interaction with a Committee member before you go out for second round. In particular, give the handicap secretary a very wide berth haha
		
Click to expand...

I cannot think of any circumstances where I would have the info, knowledge or balls to adjust someones handicap manually under WHS. 
On this point, on this wonderful app that isnt built yet, can we only see our own playing history and HI, or can we see everyone's?


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## bobmac (Feb 20, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			With your new image, are going to play in the States 

Click to expand...

What new image?
Oh, you mean Aron Ra, one of the unholy trinity?  

Would I go and play in the States?
No way, I might get shot


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## rulefan (Feb 20, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			I cannot think of any circumstances where I would have the info, knowledge or balls to adjust someones handicap manually under WHS.
On this point, on this wonderful app that isnt built yet, can we only see our own playing history and HI, or can we see everyone's?
		
Click to expand...

As now, it will depend your level of authority. Different levels (eg handicap sec as opposed to club member) will have different viewing and updating access.
What can *you* do now?


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## IanMcC (Feb 20, 2020)

rulefan said:



			As now, it will depend your level of authority. Different levels (eg handicap sec as opposed to club member) will have different viewing and updating access.
What can *you* do now?
		
Click to expand...

I can see everyone's  handicap and playing history. I do t have full admin access though. The office adds new members, for example. It is ClubV1.
Is there not an app up and running in countries already changed over to WHS that we can examine?7


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## rulefan (Feb 20, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			I can see everyone's  handicap and playing history. I do t have full admin access though. The office adds new members, for example. It is ClubV1.
Is there not an app up and running in countries already changed over to WHS that we can examine?7
		
Click to expand...

Not unless you are member of an affiliated club there that I am aware of.


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## jim8flog (Feb 20, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			I cannot think of any circumstances where I would have the info, knowledge or balls to adjust someones handicap manually under WHS.
On this point, on this wonderful app that isnt built yet, can we only see our own playing history and HI, or can we see everyone's?
		
Click to expand...

With Intelligent Golf currently any member can see another members handicap history.


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## IanMcC (Feb 20, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Not unless you are member of an affiliated club there that I am aware of.
		
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A quick search on my app store brings up something called USGA GHIN. Apparently this is the official USGA app incorporating WHS. I downloaded it and you are correct, cant enter without a user number . Ominously the app reviews are appalling, especially for android users.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 20, 2020)

I have just been to the WHS Workshop at Woodhall Spa. It was presented directly by England Golf (as that is their base), by the lady I presume is the Queen of Handicaps in England (might not be the exact job title). It was very well presented.

My various concerns still remain, and it obviously was not the platform to go through them all, as for most I'll just have to accept what will he will he. However, just a few points that came out of it:

The playing handicap will be calculated from the course handicap, using the course handicap as a whole number, not a decimal. They have only really settled on this decision this week, and based on fact that in the US, where it is already rolled out, golfers were already using the whole number as they found it easier. They intend to confirm and publicise in due course.

If a player puts in a score (say from a social round), but doesn't hand in a card, rather than just deleting the score, it appears the handicap sec needs to go chasing the player to get their card. A bit worrying if this is common.

If a player doesn't submit a score, either because they dont want a handicap change (up or down), the Committee can enter a penalty score, or get their score if it is written down on the markers card. All a bit woolly, in that the committee need to first establish, I guess, whether the player didn't hand in a card because they didn't go down, didn't go up or just couldn't be bothered, which will influence what they do if a penalty score is to be entered. It also suggests, if you used a markers card for example, a player technically doesn't need to have a card submitted at all in some cases.

If you want funding for the hardware, you can apply BUT probably wont be successful. The money they had for funding has now run out.

You can increase a players handicap more than the hard cap of 5, but must go through the union.

There will be an ESR, starting as scores of -7. This will take -1 off handicap index. Basically, it takes 1 off all 20 scores in you record, which  remains on those scores. But, as you continue to submit more scores, they go in without the -1 adjustment. The score is -2 if a score of -10 is submitted.


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## rulefan (Feb 20, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			The playing handicap will be calculated from the course handicap, using the course handicap as a whole number, not a decimal. They have only really settled on this decision this week, and based on fact that in the US, where it is already rolled out, golfers were already using the whole number as they found it easier. They intend to confirm and publicise in due course.
		
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From post #183
_The CONGU Technical team are taking it up with the R&A re the practicality for players. _


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## nickjdavis (Feb 20, 2020)

Thank goodness for some common sense around using the Course Handicap as a whole number.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 20, 2020)

rulefan said:



			From post #183
_The CONGU Technical team are taking it up with the R&A re the practicality for players. _

Click to expand...

Yes, I just thought a more direct comment fresh from.the meeting might be of interest to some people?


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## upsidedown (Feb 20, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Not unless you are member of an affiliated club there that I am aware of.
		
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Not an app but you can see everyone's handicap index and playing record in NZ without being a NZ golf member .
https://www.golf.co.nz/HighPerforma...ageNumber=1&GenderIndex=0&AgeIndex=0&ClubId=0


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## jim8flog (Feb 20, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, I just thought a more direct comment fresh from.the meeting might be of interest to some people?
		
Click to expand...

 certainly me.


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## rulefan (Feb 20, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, I just thought a more direct comment fresh from.the meeting might be of interest to some people?
		
Click to expand...

And certainly appreciated by me at least.


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## rulefan (Feb 20, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			Not an app but you can see everyone's handicap index and playing record in NZ without being a NZ golf member .
https://www.golf.co.nz/HighPerforma...ageNumber=1&GenderIndex=0&AgeIndex=0&ClubId=0

Click to expand...

Interesting. dotgolf are doing the 'back system' for England Golf.


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## upsidedown (Feb 20, 2020)

Ah that's interesting , found the NZ system so easy to use and very informative .


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## 2blue (Feb 23, 2020)

Can anyone explain the calculations involved in this statement, please?
"Imagine you average 12 over your course rating, your clubs slope is 120, so that would give you a handicap index (against a slope of 113) of 11.3, now imagine another player who averages 12 over on a course with a slope rating of 130, he would have a handicap index of 10.4."


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## Swango1980 (Feb 23, 2020)

2blue said:



			Can anyone explain the calculations involved in this statement, please?
"Imagine you average 12 over your course rating, your clubs slope is 120, so that would give you a handicap index (against a slope of 113) of 11.3, now imagine another player who averages 12 over on a course with a slope rating of 130, he would have a handicap index of 10.4."
		
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When calculated index, doesn't just get average of best 8 over course rating. It also applies a factor of 113/slope for each score. However, this bit is cancelled out when calculating your course handicap, which multiplies index by slope/113


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## rulefan (Feb 23, 2020)

2blue said:



			Can anyone explain the calculations involved in this statement, please?
"Imagine you average 12 over your course rating, your clubs slope is 120, so that would give you a handicap index (against a slope of 113) of 11.3, now imagine another player who averages 12 over on a course with a slope rating of 130, he would have a handicap index of 10.4."
		
Click to expand...

If you score 12 over the Course Rating, that would have to be 'desloped' to determine your true Score Differential and thereby your Handicap Index using the following formula
SD = (113 / Slope) * (Gross - CR - PCC)
So assuming PCC = 0 and Gross - CR = 12
12 * 113/120 = 11.3
12 * 113/130 = 10.4

Remember when you calculate your Course Handicap you factor the slope in. CH = (Index * (Slope / 113)

You then take it out


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## 2blue (Feb 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			When calculated index, doesn't just get average of best 8 over course rating. It also applies a factor of 113/slope for each score. However, this bit is cancelled out when calculating your course handicap, which multiplies index by slope/113
		
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rulefan said:



			If you score 12 over the Course Rating, that would have to be 'desloped' to determine your true Score Differential and thereby your Handicap Index using the following formula
SD = (113 / Slope) * (Gross - CR - PCC)
So assuming PCC = 0 and Gross - CR = 12
12 * 113/120 = 11.3
12 * 113/130 = 10.4

Remember when you calculate your Course Handicap you factor the slope in. CH = (Index * (Slope / 113)6

You then take it out
		
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GERONIMO .....  thanks guys


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## woofers (Feb 28, 2020)

Some interesting comments and good answers on this thread, many thanks guys.
One thing I am not clear on, and would be interested to know if the recent workshop at Woodhall clarified it, is the calculation of the initial Handicap Index.
Will the scores currently in the CDH be adjusted for the course rating and slope index or just use current gross differentials ?
Perhaps if I give some data as an example 

Let's be really simple and take an average of 3 scores.
Par 70. SSS 70.
Course rating has recently been issued at 70.5 (SSS now 71) and slope rating 118.
Currently on the handicap record:
Gross score 78 SSS 70 CSS 70  Gross Differential 8
Gross score 81 SSS 70 CSS 71  Gross Differential 10
Gross score 81 SSS 70 CSS 69  Gross Differential 12
Using these recorded gross differentials the initial 'Handicap Index' would be 10.0.

Using the course rating of 70.5 and 'de-sloping' the data would be :
Gross score 78. Gross differential (78-70.5) =7.5 * De-sloping 113/118 = Handicap differential =7.2
Gross score 81. GD = (81-70.5) = 10.5 * 113/118, HD = 10.1
Gross score 81. GD = (81-70.5) = 10.5 * 113/118, HD = 10.1 
The average of the 3 HDs gives an initial 'Handicap Index' of 9.1.

Moving the course rating in line the change in CSS gives :
Gross score 78. Gross differential (78-70.5) =7.5 * De-sloping 113/118 = Handicap differential =7.2
Gross score 81. GD = (81-71.5) = 9.5 * 113/118, HD = 9.1
Gross score 81. GD = (81-69.5) = 11.5 * 113/118, HD = 11.0 
The average of the 3 HDs gives an initial 'Handicap Index' of 9.1.

Which of these methods will be used in calculating the initial Handicap Index please?


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## jim8flog (Feb 28, 2020)

and if you only have 3 scores do not forget to take off the factor for 'low number of scores on record'


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## rulefan (Feb 28, 2020)

The historic gross scores will be recalculated from the last 20 scores with the SSS* as the Course Rating and Slope from the recent rating excercise  in order to calculate the WHS Differentials. And then take the average of the best 8 to calculate the new Handicap Index.
There is a table which specifies how the new Index is to be allocated if there are less than 20 scores available. But is exactly as if a new player handicap was being allocated.
***It may have been confirmed recently to be the CSS


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## woofers (Feb 28, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			and if you only have 3 scores do not forget to take off the factor for 'low number of scores on record'
		
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rulefan said:



			The historic gross scores will be recalculated from the last 20 scores with the SSS as the Course Rating in order to calculate the WHS Differentials. And then take the average of the best 8 to calculate the new Handicap Index.
There is a table which specifies how the new Index is to be allocated if there are less than 20 scores available.
		
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OK thanks. I was taking 3 scores just to illustrate some workings based on all 3 being incorporated, I understand the 'build up to 20' mechanism.
So, in my example the conversion for each historic round would be :

Gross score 78. Gross differential (78-70) =8 * De-sloping 113/118 = Handicap differential =7.6
Gross score 81. GD = (81-70) = 11 * 113/118, HD = 10.5
Gross score 81. GD = (81-70) = 11 * 113/118, HD = 10.5
The average of the 3 HDs gives an initial 'Handicap Index' of 9.5. 

So the CSS has no bearing on the conversion of historic scores.
And there will also be an impact where the SSS has changed, as at my club, where it is now 71, previously 70. 
Undoubtedly there will be players recording identical gross scores over the 2 years which will go into the calculation but with different outcomes.


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## rulefan (Feb 28, 2020)

woofers said:



			OK thanks. I was taking 3 scores just to illustrate some workings based on all 3 being incorporated, I understand the 'build up to 20' mechanism.
So, in my example the conversion for each historic round would be :

Gross score 78. Gross differential (78-70) =8 * De-sloping 113/118 = Handicap differential =7.6
Gross score 81. GD = (81-70) = 11 * 113/118, HD = 10.5
Gross score 81. GD = (81-70) = 11 * 113/118, HD = 10.5
The average of the 3 HDs gives an initial 'Handicap Index' of 9.5.

*******So the CSS has no bearing on the conversion of historic scores.
And there will also be an impact where the SSS has changed, as at my club, where it is now 71, previously 70.
Undoubtedly there will be players recording identical gross scores over the 2 years which will go into the calculation but with different outcomes.
		
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To be honest, I'm not sure about 2 points.
1) If it takes the SSS at the time the round was played (ie the old EGU rating) or the current USGA rating for all rounds
2) *******If it takes SSS (CR) or CSS - I know I have reported which earlier in another thread but I can't remember which.


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## williamalex1 (Feb 28, 2020)

After a new player/member gets his/her initial new handicap will it stay the same for 20 rounds ?


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## Swango1980 (Feb 28, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			After a new player/member gets his/her initial new handicap will it stay the same for 20 rounds ?
		
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Nope. As they put more and more cards in, it will update. After 3 cards to get initial handicap, it will take their handicap from their best score, but then take 2 off. After 4, best score but take one off. As they hand in more and more cards, it will start taking average of best 2, 3, 4  etc, until they have best 8 out of 20 rounds.

I can't remember the exact interations, but basically once they keep handing in more cards their handicap will change and get more accurate.


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## Swango1980 (Feb 28, 2020)

williamalex1 said:



			After a new player/member gets his/her initial new handicap will it stay the same for 20 rounds ?
		
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Format below
Number of scores, scores used for handicap, last digit is the final adjustment 
3                         Lowest 1          -2
4                         Lowest 1          -1
5                         Lowest 1           0
6                         Avg Lowest 2   -1
7-8                     Avg Lowest 2    0
9-11                   Avg Lowest 3     0
12-14                 Avg Lowest 4     0
15-16                 Avg lowest 5      0
17-18                 Avg lowest 6      0
19                       Avg Lowest 7     0
20                       Avg Lowest 8     0


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## 2blue (Feb 29, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Format below
Number of scores, scores used for handicap, last digit is the final adjustment 
3                         Lowest 1          -2
4                         Lowest 1          -1
5                         Lowest 1           0
6                         Avg Lowest 2   -1
7-8                     Avg Lowest 2    0
9-11                   Avg Lowest 3     0
12-14                 Avg Lowest 4     0
15-16                 Avg lowest 5      0
17-18                 Avg lowest 6      0
19                       Avg Lowest 7     0
20                       Avg Lowest 8     0
		
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Should the 5 scores also be -1  ??


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## Swango1980 (Feb 29, 2020)

2blue said:



			Should the 5 scores also be -1  ??
		
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I noticed that, but no, not according to the slide anyway, I double checked.

It goes back to -1 again (for 6 scores), I believe, because you are suddenly getting an average of 2 cards rather than best 1. So, if your second best score was a fair bit higher that your best (shot in first 5 rounds), then without the -1 added in again, you could have a big jump upwards in handicap when you submit 6th score.

That is my logic anyway, I suppose the handicap would be relatively unstable anyway, or could be, until you hand more and more cards in


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## rulefan (Feb 29, 2020)

2blue said:



			Should the 5 scores also be -1  ??
		
Click to expand...

Both the USGA and CONGU charts show 0

-2, -1, 0, -1, 0, 0 .....................


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## nickjdavis (Mar 4, 2020)

Currently, under the CONGU system, there is a method of providing equity in handicapping terms during mixed golf when players are playing off different tees.

Under the new WHS, will there still be such a requirement?

Was discussing this with our handicap secretary last night and my initial reaction was..."there will not be any need for any handicap adjustment because slope will take care of the difference in the tees".

Then we started thinking about it...and our thoughts came back to the old Course Handicap Calculation formula. If we use the formula...

CH = HI * Slope/113 

then this takes no account of the difficulty of the course about to be played. A male golfer with an index of 0.0 will have a course handicap of 0 off our white tees, similarly a lady golfer with an index of 0.0 will have a course handicap of 0 off the red tees....Yet our white tee course rating is 68.7 and our red tee rating is 69.9 (both Par 70)

However, the alternative formula of CH = (HI * Slope/113) + (CR-Par) would result in a Course Handicap of -1.3 for the men and -0.1 for the ladies. This on the face of it would seem fairer to the lady, given that she is effectively playing a harder course.

Thoughts? Would using the more complex formula to take allowance of the relative difficulties of two different tees when playing competitions from mixed tees be fairer?


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## duncan mackie (Mar 4, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Currently, under the CONGU system, there is a method of providing equity in handicapping terms during mixed golf when players are playing off different tees.

Under the new WHS, will there still be such a requirement?

Was discussing this with our handicap secretary last night and my initial reaction was..."there will not be any need for any handicap adjustment because slope will take care of the difference in the tees".

Then we started thinking about it...and our thoughts came back to the old Course Handicap Calculation formula. If we use the formula...

CH = HI * Slope/113

then this takes no account of the difficulty of the course about to be played. A male golfer with an index of 0.0 will have a course handicap of 0 off our white tees, similarly a lady golfer with an index of 0.0 will have a course handicap of 0 off the red tees....Yet our white tee course rating is 68.7 and our red tee rating is 69.9 (both Par 70)

However, the alternative formula of CH = (HI * Slope/113) + (CR-Par) would result in a Course Handicap of -1.3 for the men and -0.1 for the ladies. This on the face of it would seem fairer to the lady, given that she is effectively playing a harder course.

Thoughts? Would using the more complex formula to take allowance of the relative difficulties of two different tees when playing competitions from mixed tees be fairer?
		
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The same tees will have different ratings for men and women, and that difference will still be taken into account in mixed competition - course handicap is, effectively, a seperate matter.


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## rulefan (Mar 4, 2020)

Additional strokes are added to the playing handicap of the player playing from the higher rated tees.

For CONGU
Playing Handicap = (Course Handicap x Handicap Allowance) + difference in Course Ratings

For US
Playing Handicap = (Course Handicap x Handicap Allowance) + difference in Pars
If you are not in CONGU, don't ask


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## nickjdavis (Mar 4, 2020)

duncan mackie said:



			The same tees will have different ratings for men and women, and that difference will still be taken into account in mixed competition - course handicap is, effectively, a seperate matter.
		
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I wasn't talking about men and ladies playing from the same set of tees. 

By the way...our white and yellow tees were only rated for men and our red tees were only rated for ladies.


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## nickjdavis (Mar 4, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Additional strokes are added to the playing handicap of the player playing from the higher rated tees.

For CONGU
Playing Handicap = (Course Handicap x Handicap Allowance) + difference in Course Ratings*
		
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That makes perfect sense.

Why on Earth doesnt it state that in the presentation that we were given?


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## Swango1980 (Mar 4, 2020)

Good question. Both ladies and men can enter our club competitions (ladies off red tees, men off whites). At the moment, ladies get 2 shot added to their handicap in medal, 1 shot added in Stableford (might be the other way around, but I know the system does it differently depending on the format). The red tee par is 1 higher than the white tee par, and the red SSS is 2 higher


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## duncan mackie (Mar 4, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			I wasn't talking about men and ladies playing from the same set of tees.

By the way...our white and yellow tees were only rated for men and our red tees were only rated for ladies.
		
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Neither was I, the principle applies regardless, as set out in more practical detail by rulefan


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## rulefan (Mar 4, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Why on Earth doesnt it state that in the presentation that we were given?
		
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1) Because there wasn't time to include *all* the details in the presentations
2) There are a number of 'menu items' from which the national authorities may pick and choose. The CONGU use of par in this and other areas hadn't then been finalised.

But technically, this isn't really a handicapping issue, it is about competition results.


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## nickjdavis (Mar 4, 2020)

rulefan said:



			But technically, this isn't really a handicapping issue, it is about competition results.
		
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I take your point but...what you may see in black and white, my membership will see in varying shades of grey and it is to them that I answer!


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## rulefan (Mar 4, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			I take your point but...what you may see in black and white, my membership will see in varying shades of grey and it is to them that I answer!
		
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You'll be getting all the information you need in good time to present to your members. I don't know about the seminar you attended but I was told clearly prior to the presentations that I did, to make sure that attendees weren't expecting to go back to their clubs and start trying to educate their members.  The material was not designed for that.
Clubs will be getting packs designed specifically for that purpose later in the year. 
IMO, if you start telling members now about the details they will surely forget it all by November. The only thing members need to know is to put in as many cards as possible this season.


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## nickjdavis (Mar 4, 2020)

rulefan said:



			You'll be getting all the information you need in good time to present to your members. I don't know about the seminar you attended but I was told clearly prior to the presentations that I did, to make sure that attendees weren't expecting to go back to their clubs and start trying to educate their members.  The material was not designed for that.
Clubs will be getting packs designed specifically for that purpose later in the year.
IMO, if you start telling members now about the details they will surely forget it all by November. The only thing members need to know is to put in as many cards as possible this season.
		
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1) We were not told anything about using (or not) the material to educate members, however we quickly realised for ourselves that the material presented had enough flaws that there was no way we would wish to try to educate anyone using it
2) Good to know there will be proper educational material forthcoming....I find out far more from you than I do from my own county secretary or handicap representative.
3) We have no intention of formally presenting anything to our members until September at the earliest for exactly that reason. However, my handicap secretary and I are doing all we can to educate ourselves, as we know we will have to start quashing inaccuracies and fallacies about the system as our members start learning about it for themselves. There will be enough wrong information passed around between members to keep us busy in that regard!!!!


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## rulefan (Mar 4, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			However, my handicap secretary and I are doing all we can to educate ourselves, as we know we will have to start quashing inaccuracies and fallacies about the system as our members start learning about it for themselves. There will be enough wrong information passed around between members to keep us busy in that regard!!!!
		
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Ask here and I'll try and answer what I can but there still one or two details to be sorted and no doubt some things I haven't been told or managed to find out.


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## IanMcC (Mar 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Ask here and I'll try and answer what I can but there still one or two details to be sorted and no doubt some things I haven't been told or managed to find out.
		
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My club is in the Welsh Golf Union, and our seminars are coming up at the end of this month. Unfortunately I will be on holiday then (unless Coronavirus buggers that up!). One of my committee is attending, but it would be great if I could get some definitive answers here first, before I send him out with my awkward questions. So, thanks in advance for any answers, and here goes:

1. What is the maximum look back period to achieve 20 rounds? I have seen 2 years and 3 years printed.

2. In light of removing the Competition Status, does the Union recommend a minimum number of qualifying competitions played in the previous calendar year before an individual can enter board comps?

3. In determining the Course Handicap, why is the ‘Course Rating minus Par’ adjustment not incorporated, as it is in the rest of the world?

4. If a player in a qualifying singles strokeplay comp is going to score more than net double bogey, can he pick up the ball and register a net double bogey on his card, or does he have to play the hole to completion?

5. Will electronic card readers be introduced in the UK, as they are in Australia and New Zealand?

6. Will the Union be supplying Handicap Index/Course Handicap/Playing Handicap conversion charts for the pro shop and first tee? If so, will they show all the conversion factors down to Playing Handicap for different competitions, or simply be converting Handicap Index to Course Handicap?

7. If someone innocently enters the wrong Playing Handicap on their card, for whatever reason, are they disqualified?

8. In the summer we run 11 hole comps from our yellow tees. Should these be made qualifying comps, and if so, does a player receive their full playing handicap as if it were an 18 hole comp?

9. When the app is up and running, will we be able to check everyone’s Playing Handicap, or only our own?


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## Swango1980 (Mar 5, 2020)

In answer to your questions

1. What is the maximum look back period to achieve 20 rounds? I have seen 2 years and 3 years printed.
*January 2018 is as far back as they go*

2. In light of removing the Competition Status, does the Union recommend a minimum number of qualifying competitions played in the previous calendar year before an individual can enter board comps?
*Nope, that will be left to competition organisers to do as they see fit*

3. In determining the Course Handicap, why is the ‘Course Rating minus Par’ adjustment not incorporated, as it is in the rest of the world?
*I e-mailed England Golf directly on this. There were 3 issues with including it: On courses where multiple tees keep the same par, regardless of length, CR-P can be quite a large negative number. This difference is sometimes perceived as due to Slope, when it is not. Also, where a player loses allowance strokes because Par is a lot higher than CR, they think they have reached NDB a lot sooner than they have and pick up, whereas they should have played out to their course handicap. Also, due to rounding, stroked received can be distorted if CR-P is factored in. For example, 2 scratch golfers, 0.2 and 0.3 handicaps could play against each other, with 1 having to give the other a shot in matchplay.*
4. If a player in a qualifying singles strokeplay comp is going to score more than net double bogey, can he pick up the ball and register a net double bogey on his card, or does he have to play the hole to completion?
*A player can pick up. They can do that now anyway. In both cases the card counts for handicap, but they get a DQ from the comp*

5. Will electronic card readers be introduced in the UK, as they are in Australia and New Zealand?
*Not sure on this*

6. Will the Union be supplying Handicap Index/Course Handicap/Playing Handicap conversion charts for the pro shop and first tee? If so, will they show all the conversion factors down to Playing Handicap for different competitions, or simply be converting Handicap Index to Course Handicap?
*Just course handicap. Too many formats to include Playing Handicap. Clubs can buy the large boards for £150 (although other suppliers may exist)*

7. If someone innocently enters the wrong Playing Handicap on their card, for whatever reason, are they disqualified?
*I believe so, the rules of golf state a player needs to have the correct handicap on their card. To be honest, someone at the seminar asked this question, and even England Golf (well, the presenters there) were confused as to whether the Course or handicap should be written down, when put on the spot. The definition of scorecard in the Rules states the players handicap must be entered (but not whether this is index, course or playing). So, I'm not sure if there is anything else in the rules that is more specific (only just done a quick scan)*

8. In the summer we run 11 hole comps from our yellow tees. Should these be made qualifying comps, and if so, does a player receive their full playing handicap as if it were an 18 hole comp?
*Not sure this summer (before WHS). With WHS, a minimum of 9 holes have to be played. So, presumably if 11 hole comps are played, they "could" be qualifiers, where the 7 holes not played would be given nett par. I think anyway.*

9. When the app is up and running, will we be able to check everyone’s Playing Handicap, or only our own?
*In USA, everything apparently is open (before WHS anyway), so peers could review player records. Presumably that will happen here, but again the technology is still a bit of a mystery to me.*


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## jim8flog (Mar 5, 2020)

1. I have seen nothing in writing but it would appear to be going back 2 years (I assume 2 calendar years so beginning of 2018)
2. Club can set it's own requirements (which it has always been able to do)
3. Do not know, not worried about what other countries are doing
4. In a medal play comp the hole must be completed or they are  DQd (R&A rules apply).  in Stableford it is a no score so can pick up and record NS
5. Depends on what a club can afford but clearly will need at least one PSI
6. They are being offered for a club to buy. The charts I have seen only do the conversion of playing index to course handicap. Too many variables really for full charts but no doubt so one will bring out ones like the ones available at present.
7. Players only have a responsibility for having the correct Handicap index on the card (this question asked and responded to at the workshop)
8. Do not know.
9. We use use Intelligent Golf it allows any player  to see another players full handicap record including single cards for a competition.


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## IanMcC (Mar 5, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			7. Players only have a responsibility for having the correct Handicap index on the card (this question asked and responded to at the workshop)
		
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So, if a player has the incorrect handicap index on their card, through not having the app or maybe not updating the PSI from yesterday's round, are they DQ'd, even if they arrive at the correct Playing Handicap through calculation?


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## Swango1980 (Mar 5, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			So, if a player has the incorrect handicap index on their card, through not having the app or maybe not updating the PSI from yesterday's round, are they DQ'd, even if they arrive at the correct Playing Handicap through calculation?
		
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As per my response just before Jim's

Firstly, I'm not sure that it is the Index that needs to be on the scorecard. Not sure if Jim has this as the definitive answer? It may, for example be the Playing handicap that needs to be on the card, as this represents the number of strokes that they are getting in that competition. Or, some think it may even be the Course Handicap (that's what England Golf sort of went for in the presentation, without any conviction).

But, in short, yes. Whatever handicap needs to appear, if it is not there the player will be disqualified. We will be heavily reliant on the technology to give is the right handicap on the day

PS- If they arrive at the correct Playing Handicap by calculation, surely they'd need the Index to start with?? So, to get the Playing Handicap, they'd need that Index regardless


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## rulefan (Mar 5, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Firstly, I'm not sure that it is the Index that needs to be on the scorecard. .
		
Click to expand...

The RoG control that.

*(4) Scoring in Handicap Competition. The player is responsible for making sure that his or her handicap is shown on the scorecard. If the player returns a scorecard without the right handicap:*

Handicap on Scorecard Too High or No Handicap Shown. If this affects the number of strokes the player gets, the player is disqualified from the handicap competition. If it does not, there is no penalty.
Handicap on Scorecard Too Low. There is no penalty and the player’s net score stands using the lower handicap as shown.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The RoG control that.

*(4) Scoring in Handicap Competition. The player is responsible for making sure that his or her handicap is shown on the scorecard. If the player returns a scorecard without the right handicap:*

Handicap on Scorecard Too High or No Handicap Shown. If this affects the number of strokes the player gets, the player is disqualified from the handicap competition. If it does not, there is no penalty.
Handicap on Scorecard Too Low. There is no penalty and the player’s net score stands using the lower handicap as shown.


Click to expand...

I assume the highlighted bit means "Playing Handicap", which is what I interpreted it as.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 5, 2020)

I'm thinking that WHS will start making complete sense to me when I actually start using it - when I will see how it works; how I might have to adjust my thinking around my handicap; number of shots I may or may not get, and how it works in matches across wide ranging handicaps.  But until then I will keep on keeping on, and let the future be what it will when it will.


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## doublebogey7 (Mar 5, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I assume the highlighted bit means "Playing Handicap", which is what I interpreted it as.
		
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I am assuming it is your handicap index that is required,  as that is the nearest equivalent to what is required currently.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 5, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			I am assuming it is your handicap index that is required,  as that is the nearest equivalent to what is required currently.
		
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But I don't think the rules are written to ensure you use what is closest to what we do now?

Currently, we basically only have one number related to our handicap. So, that is easy. However, cards have the boxes Handicap and Strokes Received (ours does anyway).

So, currently, if I was to play in a competition that was 75% handicap, what is the most important box to be correct? The Handicap one, or the Strokes Received one? If I put in a handicap of 9 (my handicap is 9), would I be OK if I didn't put 7 in the strokes received? Or, if I accidentally put 9 in the strokes received but left Handicap blank, would I be OK because at least my correct handicap of 9 appeared?

I genuinely don't know the above, I've just never really thought about it.

But, it leads me on to WHS. Potentially club scorecards may have Index, Course, Playing Handicap boxes to fill in? If so, which box needs to be correct?


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## jim8flog (Mar 5, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			But, it leads me on to WHS. Potentially club scorecards may have Index, Course, Playing Handicap boxes to fill in? If so, which box needs to be correct?
		
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We just had new cards printed, I tried pointing out to the club manager that was my opinion about what was needed  before they were printed but he went ahead with just two boxes for handicap so we may  yet need newer cards in November.


As already said I asked the specific question at our workshop and the answer given back was the player has to have their handicap index on the card and it is only the thing they are responsible for.

As rulefan says this is an R&A rule not an England (or other) Golf rule so hopefully they will clarify nearer the time.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 5, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			We just had new cards printed, I tried pointing out to the club manager that was my opinion about what was needed  before they were printed but he went ahead with just two boxes for handicap so we may  yet need newer cards in November.


As already said I asked the specific question at our workshop and the answer given back was the player has to have their handicap index on the card and it is only the thing they are responsible for.

As rulefan says this is an R&A rule not an England (or other) Golf rule so hopefully they will clarify nearer the time.
		
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Yes. I guess I am still confused though, because the exact same question was asked by a guy at our workshop, at England Golf and presented by England Golf.

The chap that asked the question claimed to be a golf referee, and he said he assumed that "Playing Handicap" must be entered, as the Rules suggest it is the handicap that indicates the amount of shots you get (which would not be the Index)

The EG representative said it should be the "Course Handicap" that should be entered, because they believed the rules state that the handicap on the card should represent the number related to the course you are playing.

The referee insisted the rules do not say this, and it should be Playing Handicap. The England Golf presenter was hesitant from this point, and no resolution was ever finalised.

I did check the rules at the time, and as rulefan also showed earlier, there is no suggestion that it should be Course Handicap, so my feeling is that it needs to be the Playing Handicap that is correct on the card.

However, at the meeting, at no point did the referee or England Golf believe that it was the Index that needed to be correct on the card.


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## jim8flog (Mar 5, 2020)

I personally go with Handicap Index on the simple basis is that it is the only thing that is not calculated by the player and therefore there is no room for player error, it has to be right and it is the basis for any further calculation.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 5, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I personally go with Handicap Index on the simple basis is that it is the only thing that is not calculated by the player and therefore there is no room for player error, it has to be right and it is the basis for any further calculation.
		
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It certainly is a sensible approach. I wonder if this will be the common approach. I guess scorecards really need updated though (obviously they will anyway as SSS is no longer relevant, Slope will be) for the handicap boxes. If Handicap and Strokes Received are simply kept, I can see golfers getting confused anyway as to what is required (basically having the conversation we are having now).


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## rulefan (Mar 5, 2020)

The only figure that has any bearing on the number of stroke received is the Playing Handicap. 
The EG presenter was almost certainly not a referee.
The handicap being on the card is a ROG requirement. Handicap is only mentioned in the WHS because it is a ROG. After the round the WHS is only interested in the Handicap Index which is in the system already.


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## rulefan (Mar 5, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I assume the highlighted bit means "Playing Handicap", which is what I interpreted it as.
		
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What other version of 'Handicap' affects the number of strokes received?
But my quote was from the RoG which have no concept of various names of handicaps


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## rulefan (Mar 5, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			But I don't think the rules are written to ensure you use what is closest to what we do now?

Currently, we basically only have one number related to our handicap. So, that is easy. However, cards have the boxes Handicap and Strokes Received (ours does anyway).

So, currently, if I was to play in a competition that was 75% handicap, what is the most important box to be correct? The Handicap one, or the Strokes Received one? If I put in a handicap of 9 (my handicap is 9), would I be OK if I didn't put 7 in the strokes received? Or, if I accidentally put 9 in the strokes received but left Handicap blank, would I be OK because at least my correct handicap of 9 appeared?

I genuinely don't know the above, I've just never really thought about it.

But, it leads me on to WHS. Potentially club scorecards may have Index, Course, Playing Handicap boxes to fill in? If so, which box needs to be correct?
		
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*The player is responsible for making sure that his or her handicap is shown on the scorecard* 
The clue is in the red word.


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## rulefan (Mar 5, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I personally go with Handicap Index on the simple basis is that it is the only thing that is not calculated by the player and therefore there is no room for player error, it has to be right and it is the basis for any further calculation.
		
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The WHS is not supposed to be the same as the CONGU UHS.
But the nearest thing to the WHS Handicap Index is the UHS Exact Handicap


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## Swango1980 (Mar 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



*The player is responsible for making sure that his or her handicap is shown on the scorecard*
The clue is in the red word.
		
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Rulefan, I'm pretty sure I was agreeing with you in the first place. In other words, the Rules of Golf require the Playing Handicap.

However, the chat between myself and jim indicates where the confusion may lie to normal golfers when putting a handicap on their competition scorecard.

You say the clue is in the red word, I.e. handicap. Of course, that clue does not help us on this discussion, as there is handicap index, course handicap and playing handicap. If that was the only clue, it could apply to any of those terms.

But, given the playing handicap is what strokes a player receives, this is what I would assume needs to be correct?


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## rulefan (Mar 5, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			But, given the playing handicap is what strokes a player receives, this is what I would assume needs to be correct?
		
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Exactly.

How else can the words in the Rule of Golf be satisfied?


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## rulefan (Mar 5, 2020)

3. In determining the Course Handicap, why is the ‘Course Rating minus Par’ adjustment not incorporated, as it is in the rest of the world?
*I e-mailed England Golf directly on this. There were 3 issues with including it: On courses where multiple tees keep the same par, regardless of length, CR-P can be quite a large negative number. This difference is sometimes perceived as due to Slope, when it is not. Also, where a player loses allowance strokes because Par is a lot higher than CR, they think they have reached NDB a lot sooner than they have and pick up, whereas they should have played out to their course handicap. Also, due to rounding, stroked received can be distorted if CR-P is factored in. For example, 2 scratch golfers, 0.2 and 0.3 handicaps could play against each other, with 1 having to give the other a shot in matchplay.*
Pretty well the same answer I received:
It originally came about because the EGA liked to come in with 36 points if they played Stableford to handicap.  Which meant adjusting the strokes received BEFORE going out to play, rather then adjusting the gross differential AFTER the score is returned as everyone else did. (By adjustment I mean Course Rating minus Par CR-P).
There are 3 issues with it:
1. For courses where multiple tees keep the same par, regardless of length, the CR-P can be quite a large negative number. This, sometimes large, difference is being perceived as due to Slope, when it is not.
2. Where a player then loses allowance strokes because Par is a lot higher than Rating (especially for multiple tee scenarios) they think they've reached NDB a lot sooner than they have, and they pick up. Whereas they should have played out to their CH and so could lose themselves some shots.
3. Due to rounding, the strokes received can be distorted when the allowance factors in CR-P. Examples show 2 'scratch' golfers, say 0.2 and 0.3, and one has to give the other a shot in matchplay. Or players in a mixed tee event.
So CONGU refused to adopt it and it became a menu option instead.
There are some very knowledgeable golf experts (Shultz, I think?) who comment in the US golfing press, and they believe the USGA should NOT adopt it, so countries may change their mind in future years, or maybe CONGU will accept it despite the failings. We'll see how the dust settles (by year 4 or 5, I would guess).
The daft thing is that now, with a 95% stroke allowance agreed for singles Stableford, the EGA have NOT achieved the situation of 36 points meaning playing to handicap!! 

5. Will electronic card readers be introduced in the UK, as they are in Australia and New Zealand?
Almost certainly. Sooner rather than later. If clubs are prepared to pay

6. Will the Union be supplying Handicap Index/Course Handicap/Playing Handicap conversion charts for the pro shop and first tee? If so, will they show all the conversion factors down to Playing Handicap for different competitions, or simply be converting Handicap Index to Course Handicap?
Players registering a competition or supplementary score entry will have all the information displayed on the input terminal or app. The facility to print cards or stick on labels is already available from the main software providers

9. When the app is up and running, will we be able to check everyone’s Playing Handicap, or only our own?
As I understand it, yes.[/quote]


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## rosecott (Mar 5, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			But, given the playing handicap is what strokes a player receives, this is what I would assume needs to be correct?
		
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Not quite. Surely the Competition Handicap determines the strokes received and the committee is responsible for applying that.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 5, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Not quite. Surely the Competition Handicap determines the strokes received and the committee is responsible for applying that.
		
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The rules make it the players responsibility to show the correct handicap on the card


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## rulefan (Mar 6, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Not quite. Surely the Competition Handicap determines the strokes received and the committee is responsible for applying that.
		
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If the PH is the CH reduced to 95% (say), then strokes received relates to the PH.


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## jim8flog (Mar 6, 2020)

I had a further thought on this and come up with another reason why it needs to be handicap index and not course handicap on the card

Every other Monday we run a seniors competition with over 100 competitors. At the present moment one of the seniors committee prints out all the cards (labels) for all the entrants with their handicap on it. If the requirement is for course handicap is that person now going to be responsible for calculating  it for each competitor, entering it in to the labelling system before printing out the card.

The same applies to our major competitions such as Opens.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 6, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I had a further thought on this and come up with another reason why it needs to be handicap index and not course handicap on the card

Every other Monday we run a seniors competition with over 100 competitors. At the present moment one of the seniors committee prints out all the cards (labels) for all the entrants with their handicap on it. If the requirement is for course handicap is that person now going to be responsible for calculating  it for each competitor, entering it in to the labelling system before printing out the card.

The same applies to our major competitions such as Opens.
		
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Unfortunately, it may be that you can no longer print cards in the same way. Our competition secretary does the same thing on our cards, but has acknowledged it won't really be possible from WHS, or at least may not be. So, from this year he is going to stop doing this, so members get used to having to fill this out for themselves.

At the end of the day, it is the Players responsibility under the rules, not the Committee's.

The problem with only requiring the Index on the card is that, this will not be used at all for scoring purposes. So, theoretically, if a player just entered the Index and didn't even bother with Playing Handicap, then they wouldn't actually be able to work out their final score, whether it be Stableford or Medal. Yes, the computer should ensure it is done correctly, but they'd have no way of double checking that the scores were entered correctly on the computer, if they do not know their score in the first place. So, it makes sense that the Playing Handicap should be correct on card (albeit, to get there the player will need to know their Index and course handicap).

If cards had Index / Course / Playing handicap boxes, hopefully that would make it clear to golfers the steps that are required, which number goes in which box, and even highlight the box in some way (or make it bigger) that is the one that is important in relation to complying with the Rules.


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## duncan mackie (Mar 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Unfortunately, it may be that you can no longer print cards in the same way. Our competition secretary does the same thing on our cards, but has acknowledged it won't really be possible from WHS, or at least may not be. So, from this year he is going to stop doing this, so members get used to having to fill this out for themselves.

At the end of the day, it is the Players responsibility under the rules, not the Committee's.

The problem with only requiring the Index on the card is that, this will not be used at all for scoring purposes. So, theoretically, if a player just entered the Index and didn't even bother with Playing Handicap, then they wouldn't actually be able to work out their final score, whether it be Stableford or Medal. Yes, the computer should ensure it is done correctly, but they'd have no way of double checking that the scores were entered correctly on the computer, if they do not know their score in the first place. So, it makes sense that the Playing Handicap should be correct on card (albeit, to get there the player will need to know their Index and course handicap).

If cards had Index / Course / Playing handicap boxes, hopefully that would make it clear to golfers the steps that are required, which number goes in which box, and even highlight the box in some way (or make it bigger) that is the one that is important in relation to complying with the Rules.
		
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I see this as (another - the calculation routine for a playing handicap being the last) example of the full impact of daily handicap changes and the late decision to integrate allowances into playing handicaps, not having fully completed into the guidance; it will do so.

My 2p is that it is established that the player is responsible for his handicap, and the committee is responsible for the calculation of allowances/strokes etc in stroke play competitions (within the rules). This matches with the practical aspects to conclude that the player should be responsible for the handicap index figure - which is also the constant that can be referenced by committees, players and systems. Time will tell as to whether my interpretation is correct.

Regarding pre printed cards etc - nothing has changed at all. Currently the committee may pre-print, and most that do do so the previous day from the records available to them at the time. It is, and will be, the players responsibility to ensure that this is correct when they return their card. Currently if they return their card to a computer terminal, and many systems, the terminal will ask whether the information it holds at that point is correct, and the player has the option to amend for data known to him and not the system. In the future the same process will involve the terminal knowing exactly what the handicap should be at the point the card is returned (if returned in a timely manner!) but should still ask the player the question, at which point he can also amend the card if necessary (as now).

Whether we see changes to the rules themselves in this regard going forwards, or not, there will at least be guidance before implementation!

Q ? what happens in the US, or other countries that have adopted the WHS already, in this regard today? Do they enter HI plus tees played from or CH, or PH?


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## rulefan (Mar 6, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I had a further thought on this and come up with another reason why it needs to be handicap index and not course handicap on the card

Every other Monday we run a seniors competition with over 100 competitors. At the present moment one of the seniors committee prints out all the cards (labels) for all the entrants with their handicap on it. If the requirement is for course handicap is that person now going to be responsible for calculating  it for each competitor, entering it in to the labelling system before printing out the card.

The same applies to our major competitions such as Opens.
		
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Please tell me how the number of strokes received can be determined by looking at a card/label with only the Handicap Index on it.
As have said before, when a card/label is printed for a competition entrant it will show the *Playing Handicap* (ie the only figure that shows how many strokes the player gets in that competition). Depending on what options the software provider has given, it may well be that the Index and/or the Course Handicap will be printed also.
Players will never have to calculate anything.


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## doublebogey7 (Mar 6, 2020)

duncan mackie said:



			I see this as (another - the calculation routine for a playing handicap being the last) example of the full impact of daily handicap changes and the late decision to integrate allowances into playing handicaps, not having fully completed into the guidance; it will do so.

My 2p is that it is established that the player is responsible for his handicap, and the committee is responsible for the calculation of allowances/strokes etc in stroke play competitions (within the rules). This matches with the practical aspects to conclude that the player should be responsible for the handicap index figure - which is also the constant that can be referenced by committees, players and systems. Time will tell as to whether my interpretation is correct.

Q ? what happens in the US, or other countries that have adopted the WHS already, in this regard today? Do they enter HI plus tees played from or CH, or PH?
		
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Indeed,  but further what has been the requirement been in Countries that have for years now been using the slope system for handicapping.
Also the argument that it needs to be playing handicap doesn't stand as there is no requirement for Net Scores to be recorded on cards,  so players do not need to know either there playing or competition handicaps.  No calculation is ever needed,  just need to record handicap and gross score on each hole.

Its clearly handicap index for me.


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## rulefan (Mar 6, 2020)

duncan mackie said:



			Q ? what happens in the US, or other countries that have adopted the WHS already, in this regard today? Do they enter HI plus tees played from or CH, or PH?
		
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The US simply enter the total gross or hole by hole gross.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The US simply enter the total gross or hole by hole gross.
		
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Yes, but they still have to enter a handicap under the Rules, which is what I believe Duncan was getting at. And the question was, do they enter Index, Course or Playing?


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## jim8flog (Mar 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Please tell me how the number of strokes received can be determined by looking at a card/label with only the Handicap Index on it.
.
		
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I essence in the same way that a player calculates the strokes allowed on a card under the current handicap system.

The player uses the charts to get to the course handicap and then mental arithmetic or a calculator to get to playing handicap.  I bet most cards will still say strokes allowed.

I  think that cards should have 3 boxes on them to make it clear.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 6, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			Indeed,  but further what has been the requirement been in Countries that have for years now been using the slope system for handicapping.
Also the argument that it needs to be playing handicap doesn't stand as there is no requirement for Net Scores to be recorded on cards,  so players do not need to know either there playing or competition handicaps.  No calculation is ever needed,  just need to record handicap and gross score on each hole.

Its clearly handicap index for me.
		
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I think the issue is, I can understand why some think Index is clear. Others think Playing is clear. So, the guidance needs to ultimately make it clear. Otherwise, we'll have some clubs deciding it is Index, others deciding it is Playing. Which might be OK at those clubs as members get used to it, except when those members go to another course and then get a DQ because their competition secretary does something differently and they didn't expect it.


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## rulefan (Mar 6, 2020)

I have now received clarification from the powers that be.
England Golf will specify that the Handicap Index and Course Handicap must be on the card.
The HI will be required in order to 'prove' how the CH has been determined if necessary.
The CH is required by the RoG
As Playing Handicap is not used in the handicap system process it will not be required but may be added at the club's discretion. It is only used for the determination of competition results.
Other CONGU authorities have not yet confirmed but are expected to make the same decision.
Non-CONGU countries may or may not have different requirements


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Mar 6, 2020)

Oh dear! Three boxes on the card then? H.I., C.H., and actual playing handicap. And this is meant to encourage new players to our wonderful game is it? I think not.


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## rulefan (Mar 6, 2020)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			Oh dear! Three boxes on the card then? H.I., C.H., and actual playing handicap. And this is meant to encourage new players to our wonderful game is it? I think not.
		
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Only two required but two are required now if playing BB.
But surely they will be printed for the players. If not, they are all calculated and displayed when entering.
If clubs can't afford a few hundred pounds for modern kit now, they won't be around in a couple of years 

Do you really believe that adding a couple of items to a card when they will be adding another 20 later, will stop people playing golf?


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## ger147 (Mar 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I have now received clarification from the powers that be.
England Golf will specify that the Handicap Index and Course Handicap must be on the card.
The HI will be required in order to 'prove' how the CH has been determined if necessary.
The CH is required by the RoG
As Playing Handicap is not used in the handicap system process it will not be required but may be added at the club's discretion. It is only used for the determination of competition results.
Other CONGU authorities have not yet confirmed but are expected to make the same decision.
Non-CONGU countries may or may not have different requirements
		
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Can I just check, does the new WHS Playing Handicap only apply in matchplay scenarios?

In individual medal/stableford competitions, the equivalent of today's CONGU Playing handicap is Course handicap?


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## Swango1980 (Mar 6, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Can I just check, does the new WHS Playing Handicap only apply in matchplay scenarios?

In individual medal/stableford competitions, the equivalent of today's CONGU Playing handicap is Course handicap?
		
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No, WHS handicap and CONGU handicap are not really equivalent at all anyway.

In individual medal and stableford comps, Playing Handicap will be 95% of Course Handicap


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## ger147 (Mar 6, 2020)

Seems a bit daft that of the 3 numbers that are a part of your handicap (Handicap Index, Course Handicap and Playing Handicap), the only one you don't write on your card is the actual number you deduct from your gross score to get your net score.

And assuming your playing handicap is rounded to a whole number, that means the calculation is rounded to a whole number twice during the calculation.  Seems a bit pointless to round Course Handicap if you then have to apply a % allowance based on the format of play and then round that number to a whole number.  I'm guessing there are plenty of numbers and allowance combos that would give you a different answer with or without rounding applied to the Course Handicap.

It doesn't feel terribly well thought out with the ordinary handicap golfer in mind.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 6, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Seems a bit daft that of the 3 numbers that are a part of your handicap (Handicap Index, Course Handicap and Playing Handicap), the only one you don't write on your card is the actual number you deduct from your gross score to get your net score.

And assuming your playing handicap is rounded to a whole number, that means the calculation is rounded to a whole number twice during the calculation.  Seems a bit pointless to round Course Handicap if you then have to apply a % allowance based on the format of play and then round that number to a whole number.  I'm guessing there are plenty of numbers and allowance combos that would give you a different answer with or without rounding applied to the Course Handicap.

It doesn't feel terribly well thought out with the ordinary handicap golfer in mind.
		
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Perhaps it was considered the right time to implement it, and in the way that it will work, because technology is now at a level that it will basically do everything for the Average Joe. They can almost not worry about what is going on, and just treat the technology as a magic "black box" that will get them the answer they need.

Had there been a desire to do this 20-30 years ago, it would be interesting to see if it would have taken a similar format, or would it have been simplified in any areas knowing that Average Joe had to do a lot of this for themselves (not to mention what Committees would require to do to keep on top of handicaps, I'm sure 20-30 years ago it was more involved than it is now)


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## ger147 (Mar 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Perhaps it was considered the right time to implement it, and in the way that it will work, because technology is now at a level that it will basically do everything for the Average Joe. They can almost not worry about what is going on, and just treat the technology as a magic "black box" that will get them the answer they need.

Had there been a desire to do this 20-30 years ago, it would be interesting to see if it would have taken a similar format, or would it have been simplified in any areas knowing that Average Joe had to do a lot of this for themselves (not to mention what Committees would require to do to keep on top of handicaps, I'm sure 20-30 years ago it was more involved than it is now)
		
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My issue with that response is I (the golfer) am still responsible for ensuring the correct handicap information is entered on my card.  If I don't understand how the system works how will I be able to spot any errors that may crop up from time to time. Blindly trusting "that's what the computer says" is not an adequate approach IMO.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 6, 2020)

ger147 said:



			My issue with that response is I (the golfer) am still responsible for ensuring the correct handicap information is entered on my card.  If I don't understand how the system works how will I be able to spot any errors that may crop up from time to time. Blindly trusting "that's what the computer says" is not an adequate approach IMO.
		
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I agree. I'm just trying to figure out what the counter argument may be.

Ultimately, the counter argument is, I guess, that at no point now or under WHS has the player ever been asked to work out their score. All they need to do, score wise, is ensure each hole has the correct gross score. So, you'd need to go through all 18 holes and make sure this is right.

Of course, I know players do not usually do this. They simply work out their final score (whether it is their nett score in medal or points in stableford), and then if their marker agrees, they sign card and submit. It is the "simple" way, and often quicker way, to check. However, the weakness of this is that, if player and marker ended up getting the right final score, but one or both made mistakes in getting there, then a player would still get a DQ if a hole score was too low. Nearly happened to me once. My marker agreed my final score, and I nearly submitted card. However, I noticed he gave me a 3 on the last rather than a 2, but on an earlier hole gave me a 4 when I actually got a 5. So, he got the correct final score, but I would have got a DQ had the card been submitted due to a 4 rather than 5 being recorded (although, in practical terms, it is difficult to see how anybody would ever really spot that error, as player, marker or Committee will rarely go in and check each individual score and compare to markers card. If the final score is correct, it would rarely highlight an issue, I only noticed because I wanted my 2's money and realised he'd not written it down).

So, in terms of checking you score, in practical terms I think it will simply have to be that, you focus on your gross scores and make sure all 18 are correct. If you are able to know your playing handicap, or the committee give it to you, then you should still be able to check your scores as you do now


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## ger147 (Mar 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I agree. I'm just trying to figure out what the counter argument may be.

Ultimately, the counter argument is, I guess, that at no point now or under WHS has the player ever been asked to work out their score. All they need to do, score wise, is ensure each hole has the correct gross score. So, you'd need to go through all 18 holes and make sure this is right.

Of course, I know players do not usually do this. They simply work out their final score (whether it is their nett score in medal or points in stableford), and then if their marker agrees, they sign card and submit. It is the "simple" way, and often quicker way, to check. However, the weakness of this is that, if player and marker ended up getting the right final score, but one or both made mistakes in getting there, then a player would still get a DQ if a hole score was too low. Nearly happened to me once. My marker agreed my final score, and I nearly submitted card. However, I noticed he gave me a 3 on the last rather than a 2, but on an earlier hole gave me a 4 when I actually got a 5. So, he got the correct final score, but I would have got a DQ had the card been submitted due to a 4 rather than 5 being recorded (although, in practical terms, it is difficult to see how anybody would ever really spot that error, as player, marker or Committee will rarely go in and check each individual score and compare to markers card. If the final score is correct, it would rarely highlight an issue, I only noticed because I wanted my 2's money and realised he'd not written it down).

So, in terms of checking you score, in practical terms I think it will simply have to be that, you focus on your gross scores and make sure all 18 are correct. If you are able to know your playing handicap, or the committee give it to you, then you should still be able to check your scores as you do now
		
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You missing the point - I (the golfer) am responsible for ensuring the correct handicap information is on my card.  If the computer, for whatever reason on a given day gives me incorrect information which I then put on my card, it's MY fault and I can be DQ'd.  My gross score is irrelevant, that's a red herring.  It doesn't matter what I score on any hole, if the handicap information on my card is wrong I the player am responsible.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 6, 2020)

ger147 said:



			You missing the point - I (the golfer) am responsible for ensuring the correct handicap information is on my card.  If the computer, for whatever reason on a given day gives me incorrect information which I then put on my card, it's MY fault and I can be DQ'd.  My gross score is irrelevant, that's a red herring.  It doesn't matter what I score on any hole, if the handicap information on my card is wrong I the player am responsible.
		
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You'll need the computer to get your Index anyway (just like you probably do now to get your CONGU handicap, even though you probably begin to remember what it is when you know it hasn't changed in a while). Once you have your Index, you can use the chart at the club to get your course handicap.

What other incorrect information could the computer give you?

There may be potential issues. Such as, if the computer wasn't working on the morning, and you couldn't get your Index. Maybe you could revert to using an App, but then if you didn't have your phone, no one around you did, or you didn't have a 4g signal, maybe this could also be problematic. So, I'm not sure how seamless technology will be. However, if it is working, I suspect it won't be giving you wrong information.


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## duncan mackie (Mar 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I have now received clarification from the powers that be.
England Golf will specify that the Handicap Index and Course Handicap must be on the card.
The HI will be required in order to 'prove' how the CH has been determined if necessary.
The CH is required by the RoG
As Playing Handicap is not used in the handicap system process it will not be required but may be added at the club's discretion. It is only used for the determination of competition results.
Other CONGU authorities have not yet confirmed but are expected to make the same decision.
Non-CONGU countries may or may not have different requirements
		
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Madness....
so a player who knows his handicap index (looks it up) but makes a mistake in the calculation of his course handicap (which the computer will ignore anyway and correctly use, and calculate, a playing handicap for the stroke play event he was in from its records - and that figure may not be the same) will be DQ if the figure he calculates and puts on his card would have given him an additional stroke that he didn't actually get because the computer knew better....
Anyone believe that this won't bite a few times in practice (with a rather negative impact) ?


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## duncan mackie (Mar 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Once you have your Index, you can use the chart at the club to get your course handicap.
		
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and in the history of man the percentage of errors made in using such simple charts is ?

The number doesn't really matter - I hope we can all agree it's not 0 👍


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## ger147 (Mar 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			You'll need the computer to get your Index anyway (just like you probably do now to get your CONGU handicap, even though you probably begin to remember what it is when you know it hasn't changed in a while). Once you have your Index, you can use the chart at the club to get your course handicap.

What other incorrect information could the computer give you?

There may be potential issues. Such as, if the computer wasn't working on the morning, and you couldn't get your Index. Maybe you could revert to using an App, but then if you didn't have your phone, no one around you did, or you didn't have a 4g signal, maybe this could also be problematic. So, I'm not sure how seamless technology will be. However, if it is working, I suspect it won't be giving you wrong information.
		
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Banging my head against a wall so will leave it there...


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## ger147 (Mar 6, 2020)

duncan mackie said:



			Madness....
so a player who knows his handicap index (looks it up) but makes a mistake in the calculation of his course handicap (which the computer will ignore anyway and correctly use, and calculate, a playing handicap for the stroke play event he was in from its records - and that figure may not be the same) will be DQ if the figure he calculates and puts on his card would have given him an additional stroke that he didn't actually get because the computer knew better....
Anyone believe that this won't bite a few times in practice (with a rather negative impact) ?
		
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As I said above, not very well thought out with the ordinary handicap golfer in mind.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 6, 2020)

Duncan / Ger

I am actually on your side on this. If you have read through this thread, you will see I have also been unsure exactly what should be used, and have also seen the logic on different peoples opinions.

All I am doing is trying to put myself in the head of the handicapping / rules people to see how they'd look at it. I was also trying to point out, that it looks like we are just going to have to start accepting what the computer tells us. So, if we are to check our scores at the end, we may need to revert back to simply checking every single gross score, if we can't assume we've calculated the correct playing handicap in the first place. I also agree with Duncan, in that it would be a shame to be DQ for getting you Index correct, and misreading your course handicap from a chart. But, as I've said months and months ago, having 3 different handicap numbers rather than the current 1 was always going to be more complicated for the average golfer. This is clearly one reason where this applies. For bringing that up before, I was told I was being over dramatic, and yet here we are!

I've no idea how it will work in practice. I, like you, think there will be a lot of hiccups and negative consequences along the way. If you've ever read my WHS posts on any thread, you might have realised I've always tried to come up with the worst case scenarios (and been criticised for it). So, although I'm still on your side on this, I'm trying to see how it could unfold so that it doesn't become a problem in 2 or 3 years.


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## ger147 (Mar 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Duncan / Ger

I am actually on your side on this. If you have read through this thread, you will see I have also been unsure exactly what should be used, and have also seen the logic on different peoples opinions.

All I am doing is trying to put myself in the head of the handicapping / rules people to see how they'd look at it. I was also trying to point out, that it looks like *we are just going to have to start accepting what the computer tells us*. So, if we are to check our scores at the end, we may need to revert back to simply checking every single gross score, if we can't assume we've calculated the correct playing handicap in the first place. I also agree with Duncan, in that it would be a shame to be DQ for getting you Index correct, and misreading your course handicap from a chart. But, as I've said months and months ago, having 3 different handicap numbers rather than the current 1 was always going to be more complicated for the average golfer. This is clearly one reason where this applies. For bringing that up before, I was told I was being over dramatic, and yet here we are!

I've no idea how it will work in practice. I, like you, think there will be a lot of hiccups and negative consequences along the way. If you've ever read my WHS posts on any thread, you might have realised I've always tried to come up with the worst case scenarios (and been criticised for it). So, although I'm still on your side on this, I'm trying to see how it could unfold so that it doesn't become a problem in 2 or 3 years.
		
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I have been personally on the wrong end of 2 examples where the computer calculated my handicap adjustment incorrectly, one was resolved and one was not.  "That's what the computer says" is not a valid approach, sometimes computers can be wrong...

I also work in Systems Development for a living, trusting computers is almost as bad as trusting human beings!!!


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## duncan mackie (Mar 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Duncan / Ger
. If you've ever read my WHS posts on any thread, .....
		
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I believe I've read every one (unless you have obliquely slipped one into the Out of Bounds forum)


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## Swango1980 (Mar 6, 2020)

PS

From my very personal point of view. I'd want a card where I would have a box for Index, a box for Course Handicap and a box for Playing Handicap. In my mind, I could then at least be clear what goes in what box, and that all 3 handicap values are different. As far as the Rules are concerned, I'd want the Playing Handicap to be the vital one, as that is the one that is actually used for your score in a competition. BUT, I can also see why others may want the Index to be the vital one, as that is the first value you get, and therefore you are unlikely to fall foul of conversions or potential computer errors (if that were possible). 

I'm less convinced why Course Handicap should be the vital one, given that is sort of the one hanging in the middle of all 3. The RoG don't seem to ever mention anything about a handicap related to the course, so it seems odd that that should be a vital value. Also, from rulefans confirmation, it seems that BOTH Index and Course handicaps need to be right. So, that implies that if a golfer made a silly mistake in either, they's get DQ if it was too high?


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## Swango1980 (Mar 6, 2020)

ger147 said:



			I have been personally on the wrong end of 2 examples where the computer calculated my handicap adjustment incorrectly, one was resolved and one was not.  "That's what the computer says" is not a valid approach, sometimes computers can be wrong...

I also work in Systems Development for a living, trusting computers is almost as bad as trusting human beings!!! 

Click to expand...

I've been very reluctant to rely on a computer, for many reasons. Personally I like to have most things worked out in my head where possible, I don't like seeing things as a "black box" where I'm reliant on it without understanding it. Apart from current CSS calculation, everything else with the current handicap system is fairly obvious and can be quickly figured out (and to be honest CSS calculations are not hard, if you have the table in the CONGU manual). But, with WHS we will have no choice but to rely on a computer to work out our Indexes (I know the computer does it now now, but it is easy for a player to understand exactly how a change happened). A player will not be able to pick out their best 8 scores and average them in their head, so most will just accept what the computer tells them, while some may drill into it if they so wish. Also, many golfers may simply rely on what the computer tells them is their Playing Handicap, because even if they get their Course Handicap correct, a lot will struggle to figure out 95% of that (and many will simply have no patience to get their phone out and use the calculator if they can't do it in their head), and they may get lost anyway as they'd need to remember which % applies to which format.

So, maybe the Rules will make it clear at some point that, if the computer makes an error, it is not the Players fault. After all, they've already said that, if you were to play 2 events in one day, if you play very well in the first one, you are no longer responsible for adjusting your handicap for the second round. You can use the same Index. So, that is already a change from what we need to do currently


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## ger147 (Mar 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I've been very reluctant to rely on a computer, for many reasons. Personally I like to have most things worked out in my head where possible, I don't like seeing things as a "black box" where I'm reliant on it without understanding it. Apart from current CSS calculation, everything else with the current handicap system is fairly obvious and can be quickly figured out (and to be honest CSS calculations are not hard, if you have the table in the CONGU manual). But, *with WHS we will have no choice but to rely on a computer to work out our Indexes* (I know the computer does it now now, but it is easy for a player to understand exactly how a change happened). A player will not be able to pick out their best 8 scores and average them in their head, so most will just accept what the computer tells them, while some may drill into it if they so wish. Also, many golfers may simply rely on what the computer tells them is their Playing Handicap, because even if they get their Course Handicap correct, a lot will struggle to figure out 95% of that (and many will simply have no patience to get their phone out and use the calculator if they can't do it in their head), and they may get lost anyway as they'd need to remember which % applies to which format.

So, maybe the Rules will make it clear at some point that, if the computer makes an error, it is not the Players fault. After all, they've already said that, if you were to play 2 events in one day, if you play very well in the first one, you are no longer responsible for adjusting your handicap for the second round. You can use the same Index. So, that is already a change from what we need to do currently
		
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RE. the statement in bold - absolutely not true!!!  Trust me, I will 100% be doing my own calculations to check the computer calculations are accurate, and as it's only 8 then I doubt I will struggle with doing that in my head.  I may well be the exception but it really isn't that hard at all, there will be no requirement to rely 100% on what the computer says.


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## Old Skier (Mar 6, 2020)

Until I read this thread I thought I understood the WHS and how it worked.


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## ger147 (Mar 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Until I read this thread I thought I understood the WHS and how it worked. 

Click to expand...

I'm impatiently waiting for all of the relevant information to be published so I can get myself up to speed.  The worrying thing is it sounds like the golf unions are only a few pages ahead of me...


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## jim8flog (Mar 6, 2020)

You have to rely upon the computer for handicap index it can be too complex to work out in certain scenarios 

e.g exceptional score adjustment, soft and hard caps.


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## jim8flog (Mar 6, 2020)

duncan mackie said:



			and in the history of man the percentage of errors made in using such simple charts is ?

The number doesn't really matter - I hope we can all agree it's not 0 👍
		
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 only if you start with zero but there again maybe under the WHS zero does not exist.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 6, 2020)

ger147 said:



			RE. the statement in bold - absolutely not true!!!  Trust me, I will 100% be doing my own calculations to check the computer calculations are accurate, and as it's only 8 then I doubt I will struggle with doing that in my head.  I may well be the exception but it really isn't that hard at all, there will be no requirement to rely 100% on what the computer says.
		
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I wasn't saying the maths was complicated if one wished to work it out. BUT, it would be too complicated for some to work out AND it wouldn't be practical for any player to remember all their scores. So, you'd rely on the computer to get a record of your last 20 scores, unless you jotted them down as you went along. And, as Jim says, there are other issues you'd need the computer for anyway, like the PCC adjustment for each round. And you may need to factor his soft, hard caps and maybe even ESR going the other way.

All of the above make it way too complicated for players to keep track off without relying on the computer. Only those that keep a spreadsheet going with all their scores would be able to follow what is going on and checking the system is doing it correctly. That is why I said we will have no choice in relying on the computer. By we, I meant golfers in general. But, individuals, such as you, may still wish to track all the detail independently.


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## ger147 (Mar 6, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			You have to rely upon the computer for handicap index it can be too complex to work out in certain scenarios

e.g exceptional score adjustment, soft and hard caps.
		
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If they ever get round to finalising how all the calculations are done and then publish it, it won't be too hard at all.  The computer doesn't write its own software...


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## ger147 (Mar 6, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I wasn't saying the maths was complicated if one wished to work it out. BUT, it would be too complicated for some to work out AND it wouldn't be practical for any player to remember all their scores. So, you'd rely on the computer to get a record of your last 20 scores, unless you jotted them down as you went along. And, as Jim says, there are other issues you'd need the computer for anyway, like the PCC adjustment for each round. And you may need to factor his soft, hard caps and maybe even ESR going the other way.

All of the above make it way too complicated for players to keep track off without relying on the computer. Only those that keep a spreadsheet going with all their scores would be able to follow what is going on and checking the system is doing it correctly. That is why I said we will have no choice in relying on the computer. By we, I meant golfers in general. But, individuals, such as you, may still wish to track all the detail independently.
		
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Happy to agree to disagree and leave it at that, working out the average of 8 numbers is not hard.


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## jim8flog (Mar 6, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Happy to agree to disagree and leave it at that, working out the average of 8 numbers is not hard.
		
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provided you start with the correct numbers in the first place. Under the WHS index can be corrected according to what scores you have made. This is what soft and hard capping is all about.


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## RangeMonkey (Mar 6, 2020)

I’m starting to think I’ll not bother with all this handicap business, and just keep knocking it about on my own. It sounds insane.


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## rulefan (Mar 6, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Seems a bit daft that of the 3 numbers that are a part of your handicap (Handicap Index, Course Handicap and Playing Handicap), the only one you don't write on your card is the actual number you deduct from your gross score to get your net score.
		
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That is not correct. There is more to it than you have identified. The Course Handicap is calculated by applying Slope to the Index. Your nominal net score (ie Gross - Course Rating) has to be 'de-sloped' to calculate your Score Differential for handicap purposes. That is the figure used to determine you best 8 etc.

The first step (ie before play) gives you any extra shots you need to compensate for the difficulty of the course. The last step (ie after play) adjusts your score to relate it to a 'standard' course.


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## ger147 (Mar 6, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			provided you start with the correct numbers in the first place. Under the WHS index can be corrected according to what scores you have made. This is what soft and hard capping is all about.
		
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Yeah I know about soft and hard capping.  Human beings have to write the software and human beings have to test the software to ensure the calculations are correct.  And as it's just arithmetic, it's not that hard to work it out for yourself assuming the info re. how all the calculations are done is available.  So it's simply not true to state you will have to rely on a computer, you won't...


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## rulefan (Mar 6, 2020)

ger147 said:



			My issue with that response is I (the golfer) am still responsible for ensuring the correct handicap information is entered on my card.  If I don't understand how the system works how will I be able to spot any errors that may crop up from time to time. Blindly trusting "that's what the computer says" is not an adequate approach IMO.
		
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If the computer says 'x' and you use 'x' you will not be penalised if the figure should really have been 'y'.


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## ger147 (Mar 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			That is not correct. There is more to it than you have identified. The Course Handicap is calculated by applying Slope to the Index. Your nominal net score (ie Gross - Course Rating) has to be 'de-sloped' to calculate your Score Differential for handicap purposes. That is the figure used to determine you best 8 etc.

The first step (ie before play) gives you any extra shots you need to compensate for the difficulty of the course. The last step (ie after play) adjusts your score to relate it to a 'standard' course.
		
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Whether it is correct or not rather depends on which net score you are referring to.  I was referring to the net score in the competition you are playing in, which presumably would not be de-sloped to determine the competition results?  I appreciate it is de-sloped for use in your handicap calculation but not for the results of competitions?

Which all kind of reinforces my original point above i.e. it doesn't seem particularly well thought out with the normal handicap golfer in mind...


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## ger147 (Mar 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			If the computer says 'x' and you use 'x' you will not be penalised if the figure should really have been 'y'.
		
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Are the Rules of Golf being updated to say that?


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## rulefan (Mar 6, 2020)

ger147 said:



			You missing the point - I (the golfer) am responsible for ensuring the correct handicap information is on my card.  If the computer, for whatever reason on a given day gives me incorrect information which I then put on my card,* it's MY fault and I can be DQ'd.*  My gross score is irrelevant, that's a red herring.  It doesn't matter what I score on any hole, if the handicap information on my card is wrong I the player am responsible.
		
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No you can't. It will be deemed to be a Committee Error.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 6, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Happy to agree to disagree and leave it at that, working out the average of 8 numbers is not hard.
		
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I already agreed with you in the first line of my last comment (where I said the maths was not complicated).

What myself and jim were saying, was that you'd need to be able to extract the correct numbers to begin with, and make all the necessary adjustments. You'd need to:

Keep a record of all 20 scores
Make gross adjustments to those to account for any very big hole scores
Find out the PCC for each round
Record the CR for each round to compare to adjusted gross score
Calculate, for each round, the difference between your adjusted gross score and CR AND multiple by 113/Slope
Select the best 8 scores of those, and average them
Meanwhile, you'd also need to check the following:

Identify if there is a need to apply soft cap, and adjust if necessary
Identify if there is a need for hard cap, and adjust if necessary
Identify if there is a need for ESR, and if so apply that adjustment to all previous 20 scores
So, it isn't exactly just working out an average of 8 scores. You'd need to have all the data to begin with. You'd need to do the maths to convert that data into the values you need to get your 8 scores you want to average. Then you may even need to process further if any of the other adjustments are applicable.

Are you saying that is is reasonable for most golfers to store all that information in their head and then calculate it in their head. I think most people will rely on a computer for at least part of this processing?


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## ger147 (Mar 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			No you can't. It will be deemed to be a Committee Error.
		
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Are the Rules of Golf being updated to say that?  At the moment, they state I the player am responsible for ensuring the correct handicap information is on my card.


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## rulefan (Mar 6, 2020)

duncan mackie said:



			Madness....
so a player who knows his handicap index (looks it up) but makes a mistake in the calculation of his course handicap (which the computer will ignore anyway and correctly use, and calculate, a playing handicap for the stroke play event he was in from its records - and that figure may not be the same) will be DQ if the figure he calculates and puts on his card would have given him an additional stroke that he didn't actually get because the computer knew better....
Anyone believe that this won't bite a few times in practice (with a rather negative impact) ?
		
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Why would he calculate is CH if he is using a computer. When he enters the comp, the computer will tell him his Course Handicap and Playing Handicap.


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## ger147 (Mar 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Why would he calculate is CH if he is using a computer. When he enters the comp, the computer will tell him his Course Handicap and Playing Handicap.
		
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Arrive at the course to sign in, terminal in the pro shop isn't working.  Only 15 mins to tee time, already has his golf shoes on so heads to the 1st tee.

Plays 18 holes and finishes up.  Heads into clubhouse, the terminal there isn't working either.   "Just put your card in the box", but what do I put on my card?

Happens regularly up and down the land every weekend, 100% reliance on computers is going to be painful in a lot of clubs...


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## rulefan (Mar 6, 2020)

ger147 said:



			I have been personally on the wrong end of 2 examples where the computer calculated my handicap adjustment incorrectly, one was resolved and one was not.  "That's what the computer says" is not a valid approach, sometimes computers can be wrong...

I also work in Systems Development for a living, trusting computers is almost as bad as trusting human beings!!! 

Click to expand...

If you have worked in that environment for long you will know GIGO. I would bet that the 'wrong' calculation was based on wrong data or the programmer/coder getting the formula wrong. As an ex Systems Director (originally programmer) and having been associated with handicap systems providers for many years, I have never experienced a computer program producing a wrong answer to a calculation yet.


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## ger147 (Mar 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			If you have worked in that environment for long you will know GIGO. I would bet that the 'wrong' calculation was based on wrong data or the programmer/coder getting the formula wrong. As an ex Systems Director (originally programmer) and having been associated with handicap systems providers for many years, I have never experienced a computer program producing a wrong answer to a calculation yet.
		
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Unfortunately I've never been able to examine the code for the software that did the calculation but having been able to see what was input it can only have been an error in the code.  Sadly my handicap secretary refused to adjust my handicap to correct the error despite having the actual card from the away comp as well as screenshots of the input from the away club.


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## rulefan (Mar 6, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Arrive at the course to sign in, terminal in the pro shop isn't working.  Only 15 mins to tee time, already has his golf shoes on so heads to the 1st tee.

Plays 18 holes and finishes up.  Heads into clubhouse, the terminal there isn't working either.   "Just put your card in the box", but what do I put on my card?
		
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Whatever Course Handicap the chart says for his Handicap Index.

But Duncan's question said he looked up his Index. Where?


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## ger147 (Mar 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Whatever Course Handicap the chart says for his Handicap Index.
		
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I'll stop now, don't start me on Noticeboards...


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## Swango1980 (Mar 6, 2020)

ger147 said:



			I'll stop now, don't start me on Noticeboards... 

Click to expand...

Haha. So, you don't trust Computers. You don't trust Noticeboards. Good luck come November  . My instinct has always been that quite a few golfers will struggle to adapt to all this malarkey, I think you are my perfect case study.


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## upsidedown (Mar 6, 2020)

Just my two penneth but in six years in NZ 7 years ago , not once was I DQ'd for an incorrect handicap on my card.You entered your CDH number and the computer/printer did the rest. I have every confidence the systems in place now will have advanced from what they were 7 years ago when we left.
What does worry me is that CONGU appeared to be miles behind NZ in computers / technology when we returned 7 years ago !


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## rulefan (Mar 6, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			Just my two penneth but in six years in NZ 7 years ago , not once was I DQ'd for an incorrect handicap on my card.You entered your CDH number and the computer/printer did the rest. I have every confidence the systems in place now will have advanced from what they were 7 years ago when we left.
What does worry me is that CONGU appeared to be miles behind NZ in computers / technology when we returned 7 years ago !
		
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Yes, I should have mentioned NZ. They have been the pacesetters. It may be of interest to know that the company behind the NZ software system are doing the 'back office' handicap management system for England, Ireland and Wales. Scotland is ploughing its own furrow.


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## nickjdavis (Mar 6, 2020)

I'm really looking forward to 100 golfers all trying to access the club computer system simultaneously to find their HI, CH, PH or whatever, before heading off to their allocated tee for a shotgun start.


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## rulefan (Mar 6, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			I'm really looking forward to 100 golfers all trying to access the club computer system simultaneously to find their HI, CH, PH or whatever, before heading off to their allocated tee for a shotgun start.
		
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Do you have many shotgun starts with 100 players? 5 on each tee? Do they manage to finish before dark?

Why can't they check before they leave home?

But how do they register now?


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## upsidedown (Mar 6, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			I'm really looking forward to 100 golfers all trying to access the club computer system simultaneously to find their HI, CH, PH or whatever, before heading off to their allocated tee for a shotgun start.
		
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We had 100 golfers sign in on the PSI for a shotgun with no issues


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## jim8flog (Mar 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Why would he calculate is CH if he is using a computer. When he enters the comp, the computer will tell him his Course Handicap and Playing Handicap.
		
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At moment the most of our comps are sign in the proshop (hand written form ) or comps book in the locker room and enter on to the computer when round is completed. Some comps start before the proshop or office is open. So how can a computer give them a course or playing handicap before they start playing?


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## duncan mackie (Mar 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Why would he calculate is CH if he is using a computer. When he enters the comp, the computer will tell him his Course Handicap and Playing Handicap.
		
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People enter competitions many months ahead of their tee time.
Clubs tend to print pre printed scorecards the day before a club competition (we do, and everyone who's raised issues around the subject for the last couple of years does the same).
A process based on a club printing a scorecard on the day of a comp is flawed - most won't have anyone there to do it.
So on the day I get my card and play golf. When I return my card I will accept whatever the computer tells me - which makes a mockery of having to enter anything other than the base figure I'm used to referencing for use anywhere, at anytime, in any event - my handicap index.
Everything else is derived from that.
It is MY handicap; CH is my handicap from those tees on that course; PH is my course handicap in that competition.


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## rulefan (Mar 6, 2020)

duncan mackie said:



			People enter competitions many months ahead of their tee time.
Clubs tend to print pre printed scorecards the day before a club competition (we do, and everyone who's raised issues around the subject for the last couple of years does the same).
A process based on a club printing a scorecard on the day of a comp is flawed - most won't have anyone there to do it.
So on the day I get my card and play golf. When I return my card I will accept whatever the computer tells me - which makes a mockery of having to enter anything other than the base figure I'm used to referencing for use anywhere, at anytime, in any event - my handicap index.
Everything else is derived from that.
It is MY handicap; CH is my handicap from those tees on that course; PH is my course handicap in that competition.
		
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The only handicap that the RoG requires to be on the card is defined in the RoG. Which handicap satisfies that definition? The CH.

You don't need to know your Index unless it changes after you get your card and then it it doesn't really matter because the system has all the correct information. Your Index makes absolutely no contribution to any calculation when you enter your scores

I think you may be surprised by the large number of clubs that do not currently have the facility to print cards or labels. 
But if you presently have preprinted cards what do you do now if you played the previous day but after the cards were printed
If you don't have an issued card, check out your Index on an app or terminal. Once you know your Index look at the chart before you play. 

It all is happening around the world already and will be here in November. Nothing remains static in this world, nor in the game of golf.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The only handicap that the RoG requires to be on the card is defined in the RoG. Which handicap satisfies that definition? The CH.

You don't need to know your Index unless it changes after you get your card and then it it doesn't really matter because the system has all the correct information. Your Index makes absolutely no contribution to any calculation when you enter your scores

I think you may be surprised by the large number of clubs that do not currently have the facility to print cards or labels.
But if you presently have preprinted cards what do you do now if you played the previous day but after the cards were printed
If you don't have an issued card, check out your Index on an app or terminal. Once you know your Index look at the chart before you play.

It all is happening around the world already and will be here in November. Nothing remains static in this world, nor in the game of golf.
		
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You say Index makes absolutely no contribution to any calculation when you enter scores. True, directly anyway. But, surely same can be said about course handicap?


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## nickjdavis (Mar 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Do you have many shotgun starts with 100 players? 5 on each tee? Do they manage to finish before dark?

Why can't they check before they leave home?

But how do they register now?
		
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5 on each tee? Finish before dark? Don't be facetious...we send two groups off 7 tees. 100 player shotguns are not unusual. 9am start we are finished by 2pm. Happens 3 times a year.

Entry fee has been paid in advance, they register today by walking up to a table where all the scorecards are pre-prepared and pick up their card. Sometimes one player will collect all the cards for a group if they know all players are present. Player takes his card ...his name is ticked off the start sheet by a committee member.

If in future players have to log in to a PSI terminal to pre-register and figure out their handicap Index, Course Handicap and Playing Handicap or whatever is required to go on their scorecard , it's going to be bedlam.


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## nickjdavis (Mar 7, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			At moment the most of our comps are sign in the proshop (hand written form ) or comps book in the locker room and enter on to the computer when round is completed. Some comps start before the proshop or office is open. So how can a computer give them a course or playing handicap before they start playing?
		
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Well..The computer is going to have to be permanently turned on and the players are going to have to have access by a technology solution that is located in a public area of the clubhouse.

(We have exactly the same situation at my club so whilst my answer was deliberately facetious in its nature, I actually empathise with your situation)


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## Swango1980 (Mar 7, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Well..The computer is going to have to be permanently turned on and the players are going to have to have access by a technology solution that is located in a public area of the clubhouse.

(We have exactly the same situation at my club so whilst my answer was deliberately facetious in its nature, I actually empathise with your situation)
		
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I do get nervous if we need to rely on our computer working before players tee off. It doesn't always play ball. But, I suppose we'll just have to give it a chance and see how it goes.

I guess Apps may become quite an important tool in handicapping, and be easy for a player to get their, or anybody elses Index if required. Maybe they'll even automatically work out a course handicap and playing handicap as well.

But, going back to which handicap should appear on the card. Rulefan has said England Golf said it is Index and Course (although before this post, if I interpreted correctly, even Rulefan incorrectly thought it should be Playing). It is obvious that, the rules of golf themselves do not make this clear at all. Otherwise we'd not be having this discussion. So, is this guidance going to be made crystal clear anywhere? Otherwise, no player or committee up and down the country will have a clue unless they stumble across rulefan post on this thread.


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## rulefan (Mar 7, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			So, is this guidance going to be made crystal clear anywhere?
		
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Of course they won't. When they publish the official Rules later in the year they will deliberately miss this rule out so that committees can take great pleasure in DQing everyone from the competition but adjust their handicaps anyway.


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## rulefan (Mar 7, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			You say Index makes absolutely no contribution to any calculation when you enter scores. True, directly anyway. But, surely same can be said about course handicap?
		
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CH is the one that tells you where strokes are received. As required by the Rules of Golf.


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## rulefan (Mar 7, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			If in future players have to log in to a PSI terminal to pre-register and figure out their handicap Index, Course Handicap and Playing Handicap or whatever is required to go on their scorecard , it's going to be bedlam.
		
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Why would they need to do that?  The cards could be prepared and printed before play as now. The details preprinted on the card or on sticky labels.


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## Imurg (Mar 7, 2020)

A sizable chunk of competitions are not pre-drawn. They work on a roll up basis so pre printing of cards cant happen.
Pretty sure there no pre printing of cards at my new club - no sign of labels or such like. 
People write their own cards out so will need to know exactly what to and what not to put on the card..
I predict a riot...


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## doublebogey7 (Mar 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



			CH is the one that tells you where strokes are received. As required by the Rules of Golf.
		
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I just dont get this,  the rules require that the player ensures that their handicap is written on the scorecard.  The number required to directly calculate the score is currently not required to be written on the card i.e.the three quarter allowance in four ball.

I'd also question whether England Golf are the right authority for giving advice on what is a rules, than than handicapping, issue.


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## rulefan (Mar 7, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I guess Apps may become quite an important tool in handicapping, and be easy for a player to get their, or anybody elses Index if required. Maybe they'll even automatically work out a course handicap and playing handicap as well.
		
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Why on earth do you suppose an app wouldn't do that? If you've recognised the need it's already been invented.  and probably in production.
I may have rationalised that PH was key but understand and accept the explanation for CH but I have consistently said that apps will be available to tell the player everything he needs. They may well appear on new GPS devices sooner rather than later


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## rulefan (Mar 7, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			I just dont get this,  the rules require that the player ensures that their handicap is written on the scorecard.  The number required to directly calculate the score is currently not required to be written on the card i.e.the three quarter allowance in four ball.

I'd also question whether England Golf are the right authority for giving advice on what is a rules, than than handicapping, issue.
		
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Fourball is not an authorised format for handicapping. However, the %age allowance may be printed at the club's choice.
Incidentally the fourball strokeplay allowance is 85%. Matchplay is 90%
The rule re handicap on the card is a Rule of Golf. EG are not giving advice, simply conforming to the RoG


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## rulefan (Mar 7, 2020)

Imurg said:



			A sizable chunk of competitions are not pre-drawn. They work on a roll up basis so pre printing of cards cant happen.
Pretty sure there no pre printing of cards at my new club - no sign of labels or such like.
People write their own cards out so will need to know exactly what to and what not to put on the card..
I predict a riot...
		
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My club has just introduced label printers, giving all the details that are currently entered manually. They sit next to the Entry/PSI terminals. 
Some comps are preprinted and attached to cards, others or supplementaries are printed on demand.


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## rulefan (Mar 7, 2020)

*Rant Alert*

This whole thread is beginning to make me worry about the state of this country. Other countries have being managing the apparent complexities of this or very similar systems for years. It appears that many clubs and their members have not yet appreciated that the world has moved on. Although they can cope with Alexa, SatNav, Smart Meters and Smartphones in the rest of their lives, it is being suggested that once they walk through the entrance of a golf club they will want to revert to the 19th century. Or is it thought that clubs (ie members) will not pay for the kit that is the equivalent of the cost of subscribing to Sky so they can watch TV rather than play golf. Do people really believe that Brits are to lazy to get to the club a minute early to get have their card printed or to get the details off their phone before leaving home. Or too dumb to recognise most of the system is under the bonnet and they never need to venture underneath.

Whilst I'm in rant mode, why can't people wait a bit longer for the details. I have explained before that EG and CONGU are making sure that they are selecting the right 'menu options' for our golfing environment. We are the last major authority to implement so the options in use are being evaluated by observing other authorities. It will all come together well in time for November. I believe the information packs for club administrators to present to members will be far better that the stuff at the seminars. And finally, if much of the detail is issued too soon (ie early this year) most people will forget it by November or spend the whole of the playing season arguing instead of playing golf under the current system


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## rulefan (Mar 7, 2020)

I wonder how many were aware that the authors of the RoG clearly anticipated the situation over a year ago.

*Definition: **Scorecard* 
It may be in any paper or electronic form approved by the Committee that allows:

The player’s score to be entered for each hole,
The player’s handicap to be entered, if it is a handicap competition, and
The marker and the player to certify the scores, and the player to certify his or her handicap in a handicap competition, either by physical signature or by a method of electronic certification approved by the Committee.
Such electronic devices are already in use and obviate the need to have a printer of any type.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Of course they won't. When they publish the official Rules later in the year they will deliberately miss this rule out so that committees can take great pleasure in DQing everyone from the competition but adjust their handicaps anyway. 

Click to expand...

Rulefan, the problem is, you seem to take quite a patronising attitude to your answers, it is not exactly helpful. 

Just because you seem to think everything will work out without any hiccups, that doesn't mean it will. Even in this thread about which handicap should be on card, you couldn't even give a definitive answer to begin with, which is why it has continued. Then, England Golf must have told you personally, gave you an answer that conflicted with your original answer, and now we are all stupid because it is still somewhat confusing.

You also need to remember, I believe you've been close to people who have been directly involved in this WHS. Perhaps you have been involved. 99.9% of golfers dont have this benefit, so you shouldn't presume we'll all just get it as soon as we have to deal with it.

Also, I'm pretty sure the rest of the world have used a system much similar to WHS than we have. So, we will have more to get used to.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



			CH is the one that tells you where strokes are received. As required by the Rules of Golf.
		
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That is just wrong. The Playing Handicap tells you this. Unless you are saying the shots you get in a competition are meaningless to the RoG.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Why on earth do you suppose an app wouldn't do that? If you've recognised the need it's already been invented.  and probably in production.
I may have rationalised that PH was key but understand and accept the explanation for CH but I have consistently said that apps will be available to tell the player everything he needs. They may well appear on new GPS devices sooner rather than later
		
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Please tell me where I said they won't do that.

I was basically saying they will do that. However, I simply didn't 100% say they will do that, because I have no idea what they will look like. And, knowing if I DID say they 100% do that, someone like yourself could then jump down my throat if, in actual fact, they didn't do that now, and try and make me look stupid for being overly certain on something I know little about  

Are you intentionally trying to be confrontational?


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## rulefan (Mar 7, 2020)

I'm sorry you feel I am being patronising or confrontational. I have always tried to be helpful and given that I do sometimes manage to get an inside track, I pass on what I hope is useful. 
In this case I misread the runes but EG have now given me the ruling. HI, CH and optionally PH.

My frustration is caused by too many people trying to anticipate the details, having been warned that the seminars were only an introduction for club administrators. 
Recognising inter alia that CONGU's move was more complicated than some others, EG et al have spent time and effort in getting it right for us. They have evaluated the reasons why different authorities have chosen particular options and why, statistically and administratively we might choose other or the same options. 
We don't go live until November, there is plenty of time to get the details out in a user digestible form before then. They want to get it right. The 2019 RoG had flaws involving high profile incidents that had to be sorted out in the first months of 2019.
The kit is already available, the new CDH software (managing the handicap calculations and score recording) is already running, I understand the front end software (competition management) vendors have the interfaces in hand.

I get a sense of 'it's new, our members won't stand for it', 'our members don't want/understand technology', 'it's worked well since Adam was a lad', 'it won't work for our members, we are not in the US', 'our members won't understand the calculations'. No doubt there will be start up issues. But I reckon they will not be computer or software problems, but lack of club planning, poor club administration and members of the awkward squad golf society. I haven't got a crystal ball but if people don't want it to work, it won't.


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## Swango1980 (Mar 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I'm sorry you feel I am being patronising or confrontational. I have always tried to be helpful and given that I do sometimes manage to get an inside track, I pass on what I hope is useful.
In this case I misread the runes but EG have now given me the ruling. HI, CH and optionally PH.

My frustration is caused by too many people trying to anticipate the details, having been warned that the seminars were only an introduction for club administrators.
Recognising inter alia that CONGU's move was more complicated than some others, EG et al have spent time and effort in getting it right for us. They have evaluated the reasons why different authorities have chosen particular options and why, statistically and administratively we might choose other or the same options.
We don't go live until November, there is plenty of time to get the details out in a user digestible form before then. They want to get it right. The 2019 RoG had flaws involving high profile incidents that had to be sorted out in the first months of 2019.
The kit is already available, the new CDH software (managing the handicap calculations and score recording) is already running, I understand the front end software (competition management) vendors have the interfaces in hand.

I get a sense of 'it's new, our members won't stand for it', 'our members don't want/understand technology', 'it's worked well since Adam was a lad', 'it won't work for our members, we are not in the US', 'our members won't understand the calculations'. No doubt there will be start up issues. But I reckon they will not be computer or software problems, but lack of club planning, poor club administration and members of the awkward squad golf society. I haven't got a crystal ball but if people don't want it to work, it won't.
		
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Truthfully, in all honesty, your information is useful. I've found it invaluable in getting my knowledge as to where it is now. I'm also not as concerned as what I was months ago about it's implementation. But, only because I asked questions to death, and by continuing to ask, little by little I've been reassured in many aspects it wont be as bad as my worst case scenarios.

I also massively respect the work the handicapping people have done. No doubt, once they started this years ago, they've had many debates and compromises as to how this will be implemented, and I expect that they will have come up with something very good in the end.

But, most of the rest of us are just trying to get our heads around it. This site, perhaps, could be the greatest source of information up to this point, along with the workshops. I actually went into that workshop and knew everything that was presented, except for ESR. And, everything I knew came from this site, much if which you were main contributor.

But, when things are different, people are naturally going to question it. And, may take time to get used to it. But, by having a rant or giving sarcastic answers will not help and sadly it may deflect them away from your very useful answers. This particular debate was interesting, because basically nobody could give the right answer until you could get the answer from contacts at EG, and even then it wasnt really the answer most expected.

I dont think we need to worry that people wont give it a chance to work. Because, they'll just have to. And, sooner rather than later, regardless of our concerns now, it will work. We will get used to it. It may evolve. And life will go on.


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## jim8flog (Mar 7, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Well..The computer is going to have to be permanently turned on and the players are going to have to have access by a technology solution that is located in a public area of the clubhouse.

(We have exactly the same situation at my club so whilst my answer was deliberately facetious in its nature, I actually empathise with your situation)[/QUOTE

We have a networked computer system and the servers are located in the main office. When there is a problem with the network it can only be resolved in the office and the office staff do not start work till well after a comp would have started.

One of the problems we frequently have is people think the lounge computer problems can be solved by turning it off and back on again or hitting reset. This disconnects it from the network and it can only  be re-intialised by the office.
		
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## nickjdavis (Mar 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Why would they need to do that?  The cards could be prepared and printed before play as now. The details preprinted on the card or on sticky labels.
		
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Well....we are constantly being told that players MUST pre-register their round before going out to play. I take it they would still need to do this even if a card has been prepared for them in advance?

Regarding your rant ...

I recognise my self as someone who you indirectly may be alluding to. I understand now that the recent presentations were not for wider consumption....this was not clear at the time and the wooliness of the knowledge of the material presenters gave my handicap secretary and myself a good deal of concern. but that is bye the bye, we know there is stuff still being decided and more "shareable" information will be forthcoming down the line.

However...contrary to what you may think...we do want it to work, we do want to embrace it and we are happy to pay for what we need. But it is the planning we are undertaking as a committee that is driving our quest for greater understanding. We want to make the implementation of the WHS a success but, we are acutely aware of a number of issues that are specific to our clubs current technological and physical infrastructure that mean we need to have as clear an understanding of the processes that must be implemented ("must" as opposed to "should" or "ideally") and what technology is going to be mandatory for us to plan successfully. We may need to do physical building work, creating (or extending an existing) a new office area where any new equipment can be securely located, along with delivering the necessary infrastructure to allow connection to whatever PSI terminals we need. Hell we may even need to implement a different broadband technology to allow the system to run, possibly something dedicated and separate from the clubs existing systems which, due to the rural location, are not necessarily the fastest/most reliable. Other clubs may not have the same issues, others will have different ones...it makes them no less valid.

November the 2nd is 8 months away, it seems a long time, but in all honesty it is not. The questions that are posed are only done so because we are seeking the information that allows us to plan to make the implementation a success. If the questioning and criticism sometimes seems overly impatient, it is only because we are well aware of how much we need to do. But to know what we need to do....we need to know what we are doing.

I've previously expressed gratitude to you for the information you provide. That gratitude remains. But just as you may know things about the system that we don't, please accept that the rest of us are aware of specific issues within our own clubs that may mean that implementation of the WHS may need a bit more work than at other places.


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## rulefan (Mar 7, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Well....we are constantly being told that players MUST pre-register their round before going out to play. I take it they would still need to do this even if a card has been prepared for them in advance?
		
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The requirement will be set by the club according to their needs and available facilities. I think a distinction has to be made between entering a competition and pre-registering for a supplementary score. The latter may be exactly what is done now through to making an entry in a smartphone app. The former would need no more than collecting ae prepared card. If technology wasn't available in the clubhouse for some reason, turning up on the tee at the right time would suffice IMO.

 [/quote]But just as you may know things about the system that we don't, please accept that the rest of us are aware of specific issues within our own clubs that may mean that implementation of the WHS may need a bit more work than at other places.[/QUOTE]
Point taken. Whilst waiting for EG to come off the pot why not get your ISV to call in and brief you on what they can or will be providing in the way of front end technology support.


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## nickjdavis (Mar 8, 2020)

[/quote]
Point taken. Whilst waiting for EG to come off the pot why not get your ISV to call in and brief you on what they can or will be providing in the way of front end technology support.[/QUOTE]

We have done, we know what is available from them... We just need to figure out how we implement what is available...its the "unknown extras" that is outside their control that worries us.

We will work it out, it will be a success... Simply because the right people on the committee have the desire to make it so (and that includes me!)


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## rulefan (Mar 8, 2020)




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## IainP (Mar 17, 2020)

Maybe it is just the current "doom n gloom" feeling, I can't see me having enough qualifiers by the time


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## rulefan (Mar 17, 2020)

IainP said:



			Maybe it is just the current "doom n gloom" feeling, I can't see me having enough qualifiers by the time
		
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You only need 3 in the last two years


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 17, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Please tell me where I said they won't do that.

I was basically saying they will do that. However, I simply didn't 100% say they will do that, because I have no idea what they will look like. And, knowing if I DID say they 100% do that, someone like yourself could then jump down my throat if, in actual fact, they didn't do that now, and try and make me look stupid for being overly certain on something I know little about 

Are you intentionally trying to be confrontational?
		
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S
I think you are totally wrong with your opinion of Rulefan and frankly surprised. A more knowledgeable and helpful poster you could not wish to meet and we are lucky to have him on here. His knowledge is 2nd to none and always come up with a logical response.

From reading some of your posts you must have benefited from his in depth knowledge. I have contacted him direct on several occasions with queries and always gives a considered response.

Thanks for tour help RF.


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## Old Skier (Mar 18, 2020)

Mate just back from the states and he bought me back a card which had two sets of figures by each tee, it is a 9 hole course with an 18 hole card:

Men
36.4/125
34.9/122
33.7/119

Any idea from those in the know why the two sets of figures.

Secondly - EG/CONGU has just spent the last five years convincing the golfing world of England that full handicap allowances for comps was the only fair way forward (doesn't matter if you agree or not), they were even suggesting it moving forward to BB before the WHS came about.  What's changed.


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## rulefan (Mar 18, 2020)

1) Course Rating (xx.x) and Slope (yyy) for each of the 9 and 18 hole courses  xx.x/yyy. Presumably the tee positions were different for each 9.

2) They were persuaded otherwise.
a)  New, better stats were available for strokeplay
b) It is still full for matchplay
c) I wasn't aware they were promoting the idea of BB prior to WHS. But they are now waiting to see how it turns out in countries that have only adopted BB since WHS. There are still many potential difficulties of course but the upside would be as a pot hunter deterrent.


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## Kennysarmy (Apr 20, 2020)

Will Covid-19 delay the WHS roll out to the UK?


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## IanMcC (Apr 20, 2020)

Kennysarmy said:



			Will Covid-19 delay the WHS roll out to the UK?
		
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Wales golf have carried out webinars to replace the cancelled seminars. I sat in on one and it went quite well
 They are still hoping to complete some face to face seminars before 2nd November, which is still the start date for WHS in the UK.


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## Grant85 (Apr 20, 2020)

Kennysarmy said:



			Will Covid-19 delay the WHS roll out to the UK?
		
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I would guess likely.

Part of the delay I believe was the time and resource required to rate all the courses. Especially with slope rating being required which most courses wouldn't have calculated and those that did, it may have been done some time ago and with a mind towards tourists playing rather than formal competitions.

Seems inevitable that this process would have been delayed further.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 20, 2020)

Will we be playing golf by November?


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## HomerJSimpson (Apr 20, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Will we be playing golf by November? 

Click to expand...

I would hope so but you can't be certain. I would like to think WHS may be delayed as my biggest concern is it not having the chance for clubs to roll it out properly to members, or even handicap secretaries able to get fully up to speed. If we were to get back in say September (picked randomly from thin air) why not roll it out somewhere sensible like 1st Jan 2021


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## jim8flog (Apr 20, 2020)

I would expect handicap secretaries to up to speed as far as the information that has been available is concerned. What most will be waiting for is the manual which was scheduled to be available in July.

The one part of it that I foresee being a bit problematic is that the union was going to issue materials for presentations to club members but I cannot see these presentations going ahead.

In reality there is very little for players to learn, most of the in depth stuff is for handicap administrators.


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## howbow88 (Apr 21, 2020)

My course had not been rated as of the end of February. I wonder how many others are in the same position?


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## IanM (Apr 21, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Wales golf have carried out webinars to replace the cancelled seminars. I sat in on one and it went quite well
They are still hoping to complete some face to face seminars before 2nd November, which is still the start date for WHS in the UK.
		
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I am pretty sure they were out back end of last year and did Newport's course rating... and most of the others as I understand it.    Mind you, WHS isn't really something to worry about this year. Plenty of fun golf gets played without keeping score, and the the mo, any form of golf would be super!


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Apr 21, 2020)

I'm pretty certain that my course had not been rated by mid March. I would be more than happy to not bother with WHS, as I don't think there's 'owt wrong with what we have!
However, it IS coming, but I cannot see it coming this November.


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## lex! (Apr 21, 2020)

I agree with the Yorkshire Hacker, I am the handicap sec at my place and my preference would be for them to use COVID-19 as an excuse to forget all about WHS. Nothing wrong with what we've got now.
I would expect at least a 6 month delay, more likely put it's introduction back by a year. There were several unknowns at the last workshop I went to.


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## rulefan (Apr 21, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			My course had not been rated as of the end of February. I wonder how many others are in the same position?
		
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Rating does not take place outside the normal playing season. Usually April - September. Only a few dozen are expected to be unrated by then. Those will be given a temporary rating. 
A majority of those outstanding are because the clubs would or could not provide clear access to the course during the rating process. I am told there enough rating teams available.


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## rulefan (Apr 21, 2020)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			I don't think there's 'owt wrong with what we have!
		
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Apart from the built in issues of the inaccuracy relating to higher handicap players (ie slope) and the inability to respond to old age or deteriorating physical ability when upwards movement is restricted to 0.1.


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## lex! (Apr 21, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Apart from the built in issues of the inaccuracy relating to higher handicap players (ie slope) and the inability to respond to old age or deteriorating physical ability when upwards movement is restricted to 0.1.
		
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Continuous review?
Annual review?


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## Foxholer (Apr 21, 2020)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			...I would be more than happy to not bother with WHS, as I don't think there's 'owt wrong with what we have!
...
		
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lex! said:



			I agree with the Yorkshire Hacker, I am the handicap sec at my place and my preference would be for them to use COVID-19 as an excuse to forget all about WHS. Nothing wrong with what we've got now.
...
		
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Isolationist Luddites!

It's a *World* Handicap System!


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## Foxholer (Apr 21, 2020)

lex! said:



			Continuous review?
...
		
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Built in!


lex! said:



			...
Annual review?
		
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Yes!

Check this out....https://www.my-golf.uk/world-handicap-system-2020-faqs-2/


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Apr 21, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Apart from the built in issues of the inaccuracy relating to higher handicap players (ie slope) and the inability to respond to old age or deteriorating physical ability when upwards movement is restricted to 0.1.
		
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Rulefan, you and I are never going to agree, but I thought Golf Committees dealt with that sort of thing. I have never heard that many complaints with our system, and there appeared to be no shortage of older members playing. Getting the younger ones to play.....that's the issue, surely?


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## rulefan (Apr 21, 2020)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			I thought Golf Committees dealt with that sort of thing. 
I have never heard that many complaints with our system,
		
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Only the better ones.
Most CONGU members didn't/don't know there was a more widely used alternative.


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## lex! (Apr 21, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Isolationist Luddites!

It's a *World* Handicap System!
		
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Lol! Yes, when we go to the workshops they seem to think that everyone is playing all over the world all of the time. 'Oh won't it be great with WHS, now you can play anywhere with your h'cap'.


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## lex! (Apr 21, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Built in!

Yes!

Check this out....https://www.my-golf.uk/world-handicap-system-2020-faqs-2/

Click to expand...

Yeah, but we've already got these checks and balances.


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## Foxholer (Apr 21, 2020)

lex! said:



			Yeah, but we've already got these checks and balances.
		
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Ask Crazyface what he thinks of them!

https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/handicap-adjustment.104906/#post-2156668


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## jim8flog (Apr 21, 2020)

lex! said:



			Continuous review?
Annual review?
		
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 The basic problems with the continuous review are that have one good round and the seven in a row resets, have a buffer and the review says defer until the annual review.
 It also says  ageing players without defining what they mean by ageing, we all age.

There will no continuous review with the WHS so abit less work for the volunteers.

I also foresee far fewer players on the annual review report if players put in enough cards.


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## jim8flog (Apr 21, 2020)

I am some who has been on the decline (golf wise) for several years and have always thought the current system does not change handicaps upwards quickly enough* and people on handicap committees tend to remember you as the player you once were rather than the player you are now.

* Say at the moment I am 10 handicap but regularly shoot 2 or worse than handicap it will take 20 rounds worse than buffer to get the 2 shots by which time I may be playing 3-4 shots worse than a 10 handicap.


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## lex! (Apr 22, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I am some who has been on the decline (golf wise) for several years and have always thought the current system does not change handicaps upwards quickly enough* and people on handicap committees tend to remember you as the player you once were rather than the player you are now.

* Say at the moment I am 10 handicap but regularly shoot 2 or worse than handicap it will take 20 rounds worse than buffer to get the 2 shots by which time I may be playing 3-4 shots worse than a 10 handicap.
		
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Well then the handicap committee needs to be replaced.


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## Backsticks (Apr 22, 2020)

lex! said:



			Well then the handicap committee needs to be replaced.
		
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On the contrary. The handicap committee is perfectly correct to leave such a handicap as is. Anyone regularly shooting within 2 (and some worse than that) of their handicap is on the correct handicap. That is just about the correct profile for a 10 handicapper.


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## 2blue (Apr 22, 2020)

lex! said:



			Lol! Yes, when we go to the workshops they seem to think that everyone is playing all over the world all of the time. 'Oh won't it be great with WHS, now *you can play anywhere with your h'cap*'.
		
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Also means your H/cap earned at an 'easy' course will be more equitable when playing at a much 'harder' one so that you off 10 & your opposition off similar will be more evenly matched........  SO..  see you don't even have to leave the country to gain benefit.


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## 2blue (Apr 22, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I am some who has been on the decline (golf wise) for several years and have always thought the current system does not change handicaps upwards quickly enough* and people on handicap committees tend to remember you as the player you once were rather than the player you are now.

* Say at the moment I am 10 handicap but regularly shoot 2 or worse than handicap it will take 20 rounds worse than buffer to get the 2 shots by which time I may be playing 3-4 shots worse than a 10 handicap.
		
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AGREED!!


lex! said:



			Well then the handicap committee needs to be replaced.
		
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You'd be replacing an awefull lot at that rate, pretty much most, I'd say......  why not join your Club's H/cap team & have your say locally?


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## jim8flog (Apr 22, 2020)

lex! said:



			Well then the handicap committee needs to be replaced.
		
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 I am the current handicap committee chair


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## jim8flog (Apr 22, 2020)

Backsticks said:



			On the contrary. The handicap committee is perfectly correct to leave such a handicap as is. Anyone regularly shooting within 2 (and some worse than that) of their handicap is on the correct handicap. That is just about the correct profile for a 10 handicapper.
		
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 I should have said 2 worse than buffer.


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## 2blue (Apr 22, 2020)

Come November how does the WHS calculate a handicap index for player with a CONGH H/cap but no 'qualifying/acceptable' scores in the last 2 years? Is it a case of submit 3 cards & it's the best one  -2?
 In fact will it be just a matter of them playing Q Comps until their 3rd when the system will make it happen?


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## rulefan (Apr 23, 2020)

In principle, yes. Although there will be no such thing as Q scores, acceptable scores (individual comp and predeclared scores will be used as for a new player). After 3 cards a formula is applied until a full 20 have been returned.

*3*             Lowest 1 -2.0
*4 *            Lowest 1 -1.0
*5   *          Lowest 1 
*6   *          Average of lowest 2 -1.0
*7 or 8*      Average of lowest 2 
*9 to 11*     Average of lowest 3 
*12 to 14*   Average of lowest 4 
*15 or 16*   Average of lowest 5 
*17 or 18  * Average of lowest 6 
*19   *        Average of lowest 7
*20   *        Average of lowest 8


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## 2blue (Apr 23, 2020)

So on a practical basis when new members join we'd simply register them on our H/cap Software, transfer their CDH if they have one & if they haven't just await them submitting enough 'acceptable scores' so that an Index is then generated. Will there still be a CDH database we'll have access to?


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## rulefan (Apr 23, 2020)

2blue said:



			So on a practical basis when new members join we'd simply register them on our H/cap Software, transfer their CDH if they have one & if they haven't just await them submitting enough 'acceptable scores' so that an Index is then generated.
		
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Yes. But for new players, enter the cardsas they arrive. Their Index will be created automatically after 3.




			Will there still be a CDH database we'll have access to?
		
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In effect, yes. But that is where all the number crunching will be done.


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## howbow88 (Apr 23, 2020)

Purely in terms of winning comps, does WHS benefit higher handicappers over lower handicappers?


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## 2blue (Apr 23, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			Purely in terms of winning comps, does WHS benefit higher handicappers over lower handicappers?
		
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Same as before I'd think.....  those who play best relative to their h/cap will do best. 🤓🤓


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## jim8flog (Apr 23, 2020)

From the email received from England Golf today there is no sign of a postponement.


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## jim8flog (Apr 23, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			Purely in terms of winning comps, does WHS benefit higher handicappers over lower handicappers?
		
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I would agree with 2blue

What I would expect is that over a number years that there would be fewer bandits as everyone's handicaps starts to reflect their true ability. Although the WHS does give room for players to manipulate their handicaps if they put in exceptional scores in comps the system reacts quicker than now.


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## rulefan (Apr 23, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			Purely in terms of winning comps, does WHS benefit higher handicappers over lower handicappers?
		
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Once conversions from CONGU to WHS have bedded down, no advantage to either.


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## Backsticks (Apr 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Once conversions from CONGU to WHS have bedded down, no advantage to either.
		
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I would have thought, that like the Congu system, it will still favour lower handicappers chances of winning. Its not really an aspect of the handicap system per se, just a consequence of lower handicappers having a tighter spread of scores, and therefore, while they will not shoot a 43pts Stbl like the high handicapper, they nevertheless have a relatively higher number of scores that are in the reckoning. Less field crushers. But more dogs in the hunt.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 23, 2020)

Backsticks said:



			I would have thought, that like the Congu system, it will still favour lower handicappers chances of winning. Its not really an aspect of the handicap system per se, just a consequence of lower handicappers having a tighter spread of scores, and therefore, while they will not shoot a 43pts Stbl like the high handicapper, they nevertheless have a relatively higher number of scores that are in the reckoning. Less field crushers. But more dogs in the hunt.
		
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On that logic, you could argue low handicappers would have a much worse chance when the size of the field is quite large. Because, out of all the higher handicappers, it is more likely that at least 1 of them will have a good day with 43+ points.

Though, this is why the handicap has never been calculated as a pure average of all scores.


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## rulefan (Apr 23, 2020)

The odds are different in match play and stroke play. But it is not comparing like with like. 
In the former, it has been shown that the lower capper wins more than 50% of all matches. In the latter, players win in proportion to the number of entrants in the particular handicap ranges.
Matches are *a* player against *a* player. SP comps are *any* player against *a field* of players


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## 2blue (Apr 24, 2020)

21.3     An acceptable score for Supplementary Score purposes is any authenticated score under Competition Play Conditions in compliance with the conditions listed in this clause and played over either: (a) an 18-hole Measured Course in either Stroke Play or Stableford format; or  *(b) a Designated Nine-Hole Course in a Stableford format.*

Anyone know why these could not also be Stroke Play?


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2020)

2blue said:



			21.3     An acceptable score for Supplementary Score purposes is any authenticated score under Competition Play Conditions in compliance with the conditions listed in this clause and played over either: (a) an 18-hole Measured Course in either Stroke Play or Stableford format; or  *(b) a Designated Nine-Hole Course in a Stableford format.*

Anyone know why these could not also be Stroke Play?
		
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Just checked my V1 system and you can only do Stroke Play on 9 holes unless my system is broke. Need to find the magic book.


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2020)

Strange, it does indeed say that. Best speak to V1


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2020)

*World Handicap System County Update - Gemma Hunter (England Golf)*_
*The Launch Date: *
The launch date for WHS in England and the other CONGU nations remains at 2nd November 2020. The lack of scores being returned this year, while not being ideal does not have any impact on the move as we will be using records back to January 2018 for the transition. (more information later in the update) 
*Rules of Handicapping: *
The Rules of Handicapping manual has been signed off and ready to print and we are aiming for this to be available to clubs around the end of June or beginning of July. 

We will be sending out 2 printed copies per club, and there will be a downloadable PDF version online. We will also make sure that all Counties have printed copies. 

Working alongside the Rules of Handicapping Manual will be a CONGU guidance document, which is currently being developed to support the understanding and interpretation within the main rules. This will only be available in PDF format, so that it can be updated and added too when required. 
*Course and Slope Ratings: *
We had been due to send Course Rating information to clubs week commencing 13th April, however due to the current situation we have been unable to print and send the Slope Certificates, but for information when it is released clubs will receive: _

_Slope certificates – front and back 9. Clubs will only have a separate 9 hole certificate if they have a different combination of holes other than 1-9 or 10-18; _
_Poster explaining what Course Rating is (as shown and similar to the one used in Education Workshops) _
_Paper Slope Rating Tables; _
_Voucher for £40 discount for printed boards as mentioned during the Education Workshops.  _
_*Central Platform*
Development of our new CDH platform is continuing and I am looking forward to being able to show you all, we hope this will be possible at some point in June. Along side the Central Platform, we will also have an access point for Club and a link into a newly designed players area. 
*The transition process: *
England Golf and CONGU (Thanks to Jim Fisher for his hard work on this) have been testing the transition process using scores from the CDH from 2018/2019 seasons. 

Over 450,000 individual players and over 6,600,000 score records have been identified and processed to convert their CONGU handicap to a WHS Handicap Index. 

The process used the Adjusted Gross Differential based on the Competition Scratch Score, along with the slope rating of the tees to establish a score differential. (if Course/ Slope Rating has been calculated this is used, if a course is yet to be rated a provisional rating will be used, should the course not be identified we will use 125) 

There were some issues with the data which this testing process identified and has given us the opportunity to form strategies that will allow us to use or disregard these scores during the transition process. 

The results of the testing showed that the majority of handicaps would transition with little of no issues. The increase during transition will be limited to 5 strokes, and we will be able to identify players, who should have been increased by more and flag these with Clubs and Counties for a further review. 
*Education: *
Thank you all for your assistance in the deliver of the Workshops over the winter months, it was a great effort with 1384 clubs attending the 84 workshops that took place, unfortunately we had 5 sessions cancelled which would have been another 130 clubs. 

To help educate those who had sessions cancelled, we have split the presentation in to 4 parts and recorded them with a voiceover, so that they can watch them in their own time following this we will host a couple of Q&A sessions on a webinar, We hope this will go out W/C 27th April. 

In addition, we have approx. 350 clubs that did not engage with the education, and we will be identifying these club and sending them a copy of the presentation, we will also send each county a list of clubs who we don’t have any record of workshop attendance. 

The next phase of education is for the golfer themselves and we are looking at doing this in a number of different ways. 

We are developing a tool kit for clubs to help them educate golfers, we had hoped that part of this would be done via a presentation to members, but with current restrictions this maybe difficult, so following the same principle as the Club Presentation, we are going to record the Members Presentation and give clubs the ability to share this with their members as an interim measure. Alongside this England Golf will have a promotional campaign. Which you should start to see in the coming weeks. 

Don’t worry if there are gaps in your knowledge, England Golf will be educating golfers on WHS as the year goes on with information released through www.englandgolf.org/whs and via your golf club or facility. 
Kind regards,
_


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## rosecott (Apr 24, 2020)

2blue said:



			21.3     An acceptable score for Supplementary Score purposes is any authenticated score under Competition Play Conditions in compliance with the conditions listed in this clause and played over either: (a) an 18-hole Measured Course in either Stroke Play or Stableford format; or  *(b) a Designated Nine-Hole Course in a Stableford format.*

Anyone know why these could not also be Stroke Play?
		
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The format for 9-hole QRs can be Stableford or Medal but scores are treated as Stableford with a neutral 18 points added before any handicap adjustment is made.


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## rosecott (Apr 24, 2020)

2blue said:



			21.3     An acceptable score for Supplementary Score purposes is any authenticated score under Competition Play Conditions in compliance with the conditions listed in this clause and played over either: (a) an 18-hole Measured Course in either Stroke Play or Stableford format; or  *(b) a Designated Nine-Hole Course in a Stableford format.*

Anyone know why these could not also be Stroke Play?
		
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Dave, are you looking at the current CONGU manual? Clause 21 covers Supplementaries, clause 22 covers 9-hole QRs.


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## 2blue (Apr 24, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Dave, are you looking at the current CONGU manual? Clause 21 covers Supplementaries, clause 22 covers 9-hole QRs.
		
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Yes we'll be using 18 & 9 holer's as Supps rather than running many Comps. & that's how it's come up.... seems strange.


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## jim8flog (Apr 25, 2020)

2blue said:



			21.3     An acceptable score for Supplementary Score purposes is any authenticated score under Competition Play Conditions in compliance with the conditions listed in this clause and played over either: (a) an 18-hole Measured Course in either Stroke Play or Stableford format; or  *(b) a Designated Nine-Hole Course in a Stableford format.*

Anyone know why these could not also be Stroke Play?
		
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There is no reason why they could not be stroke play but remember any hole score worse than 2 over /twice the par is converted as appropriate and a NR will count for handicap. All handicaps are based upon Stableford because of the alteration to well over par holes to lesser scores.


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## rosecott (Apr 25, 2020)

2blue said:



			Yes we'll be using 18 & 9 holer's as Supps rather than running many Comps. & that's how it's come up.... seems strange.
		
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Dave,

Sorry, but I misread your original post and thought you were talking about running 9-hole QRs. On 1/1/18 CONGU brought in the ability for clubs to run 9-hole QRs in either Stableford or Medal (used to be Stableford only). No mention was made of the same change for Supplementaries. I'm fairly sure that was an omission as our ISV - Handicapmaster - changed the software to allow for either Stableford or Medal to be used for both 9-hole QRs and 9-hole Supplementaries.


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## 2blue (Apr 25, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Dave,

Sorry, but I misread your original post and thought you were talking about running 9-hole QRs. On 1/1/18 CONGU brought in the ability for clubs to run 9-hole QRs in either Stableford or Medal (used to be Stableford only). No mention was made of the same change for Supplementaries. I'm fairly sure that was an omission as our ISV - Handicapmaster - changed the software to allow for either Stableford or Medal to be used for both 9-hole QRs and 9-hole Supplementaries.
		
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I'm with you on this Jim....  I think there's likely been an omission somewhere....  otherwise its hard to understand.


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## Wabinez (Apr 25, 2020)

So, I haven’t read the whoooole thread.

but I understand that social rounds count. So, if going on holiday to play some golf....could you log the scores in these rounds against your handicap. And how?


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## rulefan (Apr 25, 2020)

Wabinez said:



			So, I haven’t read the whoooole thread.

but I understand that social rounds count. So, if going on holiday to play some golf....could you log the scores in these rounds against your handicap. And how?
		
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Under CONGU, social rounds do not count. Outside competitions they have to be played as Supplementary Rounds. Which means they have to registered before play ans the card must be returned.

Under WHS the facility to play handicap counting 'social' rounds varies slightly from country to country. However, in CONGU territory (and the rest of Europe) it remains exactly the same as now. Rounds must be preregistered before play, cards must be attested by a marker, the card must be returned and it must be played on a certified measured course. The only change is that they are no longer called Supplementary Scores.


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## Wabinez (Apr 25, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Under CONGU, social rounds do not count. Outside competitions they have to be played as Supplementary Rounds. Which means they have to registered before play ans the card must be returned.

Under WHS the facility to play handicap counting 'social' rounds varies slightly from country to country. However, in CONGU territory (and the rest of Europe) it remains exactly the same as now. Rounds must be preregistered before play, cards must be attested by a marker, the card must be returned and it must be played on a certified measured course. The only change is that they are no longer called Supplementary Scores.
		
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I know about current rules and how to put supplementary cards in....just didn’t know how it would be under WHS. shame, was tempted to whack some scores in when I go away next year for the lols as the courses are difficult.


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## rulefan (Apr 25, 2020)

Wabinez said:



			I know about current rules and how to put supplementary cards in....just didn’t know how it would be under WHS. shame, was tempted to whack some scores in when I go away next year for the lols as the courses are difficult.
		
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If the country you are going to is using WHS and you follow all their posting rules, there is no reason why you shouldn't post your scores from rounds played there.


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## rosecott (Apr 26, 2020)

Wabinez said:



			I know about current rules and how to put supplementary cards in....just didn’t know how it would be under WHS. shame, was tempted to whack some scores in when I go away next year for the lols as the courses are difficult.
		
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What? In an attempt to get a handicap increase?


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## Wabinez (Apr 26, 2020)

rosecott said:



			What? In an attempt to get a handicap increase?
		
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or a decrease if I play well around them.

it‘d just be funny to throw in a card or three, as the system allows it.


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## rulefan (Apr 26, 2020)

You may find that 'throwing a card in' may be rather different to declaring the round to be for handicap purposes beforehand.


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## Fish (May 6, 2020)

I'm reliably informed this is still going ahead on time, as proposed, no delays due to the pandemic.

After all, why does it need delaying if all courses have been rated for it?


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## Old Skier (May 6, 2020)

Fish said:



			I'm reliably informed this is still going ahead on time, as proposed, no delays due to the pandemic.

After all, why does it need delaying if all courses have been rated for it?
		
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Still going ahead, had the email, even though there are many course not yet been rated.


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## Crazyface (May 7, 2020)

Looking forward to seeing the ratings for the courses myself. I like this sort of thing. And boy oh boy is there gonna be some arguments on here about how certain course's have been rated.


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## rosecott (May 7, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Looking forward to seeing the ratings for the courses myself. I like this sort of thing. And boy oh boy is there gonna be some arguments on here about how certain course's have been rated.
		
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Why would there be any argument? It's not a competition and the course ratings are probably as objective as it's possible to be. As far as I know, the vast majority of courses have already been rated with only a few left to be done and they will be given a provisional rating based on the data already available for them.


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## doublebogey7 (May 7, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Looking forward to seeing the ratings for the courses myself. I like this sort of thing. And boy oh boy is there gonna be some arguments on here about how certain course's have been rated.
		
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No need to wait   they can all be found here http://ncrdb.usga.org/


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## yandabrown (May 7, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			No need to wait   they can all be found here http://ncrdb.usga.org/

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Just looking around Berkshire, 20 have full ratings, 12 have Red Tees Only (but one is a ladies club and another is a school - Eton) and 2 have no ratings at all. So looks like a fair bit of work still to do here.


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## Lilyhawk (May 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



			You may find that 'throwing a card in' may be rather different to declaring the round to be for handicap purposes beforehand. 

Click to expand...

Is it the UK or Sweden who’s going their own way in regards to registering rounds for handicap purposes? In Sweden you don’t have to declare prior to a round that it’ll be a round for handicap.


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## Cake (May 7, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			No need to wait   they can all be found here http://ncrdb.usga.org/

Click to expand...

Frustratingly my club only has the red tees on that site... was hoping it would have been rated by now, but I guess not.


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## Cake (May 7, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			Just looking around Berkshire, 20 have full ratings, 12 have Red Tees Only (but one is a ladies club and another is a school - Eton) and 2 have no ratings at all. So looks like a fair bit of work still to do here.
		
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Yeah, my course is in Berkshire and does not have values on the site (beyond the reds anyway)


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## rulefan (May 7, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Is it the UK or Sweden who’s going their own way in regards to registering rounds for handicap purposes? In Sweden you don’t have to declare prior to a round that it’ll be a round for handicap.
		
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It depends on the local handicapping authority. But I am surprised because Sweden is in the EGA. I would be very surprised if Sweden has not adopted the WHS rules

The EGA (pre WHS) handicap system said re Extra Day Scores:

_3.8.5 The player must register his name on the EDS entry list before starting the round. 
His entry must include details of which course and tees will be played and such other details as are required by his national association. 
3.8.6 The player must record the same details as mentioned in Clause 3.8.5 on his score card and he must return the score card signed by the marker and himself. 
3.8.7 If the player, after registration on the EDS entry list, does not return his score card, a NR will be recorded for handicap purposes. _


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## ger147 (May 7, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			No need to wait   they can all be found here http://ncrdb.usga.org/

Click to expand...

Virtually nothing for my area of Scotland on that list. Not sure if that means there is still a lot of rating to be done round here or not.


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## jim8flog (May 7, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Virtually nothing for my area of Scotland on that list. Not sure if that means there is still a lot of rating to be done round here or not.
		
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 to get to that view have you entered the name of every club and checked them one at a time.

The link requires you to enter a country and club name

Have you got another link which lists all the clubs in one country.


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## Lilyhawk (May 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



			It depends on the local handicapping authority. But I am surprised because Sweden is in the EGA. I would be very surprised if Sweden has not adopted the WHS rules

The EGA (pre WHS) handicap system said re Extra Day Scores:

_3.8.5 The player must register his name on the EDS entry list before starting the round. 
His entry must include details of which course and tees will be played and such other details as are required by his national association. 
3.8.6 The player must record the same details as mentioned in Clause 3.8.5 on his score card and he must return the score card signed by the marker and himself. 
3.8.7 If the player, after registration on the EDS entry list, does not return his score card, a NR will be recorded for handicap purposes. _

Click to expand...

Strange. I’m taking it directly from the Swedish golf associations site where it says:

No pre-registration is needed. 
You do not need to advise or pre-register a round for handicap purposes. As long as you play within the rules of golf you can simply register your round on “your golf” once finished. 

“Your golf” is, I believe, the National golf identity account.


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## ger147 (May 7, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			to get to that view have you entered the name of every club and checked them one at a time.

The link requires you to enter a country and club name

Have you got another link which lists all the clubs in one country.
		
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Have tried about 25 clubs individually, got 1 hit.


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## yandabrown (May 7, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Have tried about 25 clubs individually, got 1 hit.
		
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Is that a hit in finding a club or the club having been rated? If the former then Select the country, I chose England, then for the state there was a list that included Berks, Bucks and Oxon. Clicking submit gave me all the clubs


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## ger147 (May 7, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			Is that a hit in finding a club or the club having been rated? If the former then Select the country, I chose England, then for the state there was a list that included Berks, Bucks and Oxon. Clicking submit gave me all the clubs
		
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Just hits - there seems to be hardly any Scottish clubs listed at all. For example, there is only 1 for North Lanarkshire, 1 for West Lothian and only 2 for East Lothian. There are quite a few more clubs/courses than that in those areas.


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## Deleted member 3432 (May 7, 2020)

Can't work this out at all. Had a look at my own club's slope which is 136 off the Blue tees and 134 off White.

Front 9 is 129 off both Blue and White. Back 9 is 142 Blue and 137 White.

Front 9 is by far the harder 9 on about 360 days of the year.

System is either very flawed or whoever rated the course doesn't play golf


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## IanG (May 7, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Can't work this out at all. Had a look at my own club's slope which is 136 off the Blue tees and 134 off White.

Front 9 is 129 off both Blue and White. Back 9 is 142 Blue and 137 White.

Front 9 is by far the harder 9 on about 360 days of the year.

System is either very flawed or whoever rated the course doesn't play golf 

Click to expand...

It also seems to think Askernish is in East Lothian


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## Deleted member 3432 (May 7, 2020)

IanG said:



			It also seems to think Askernish is in East Lothian 

Click to expand...


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## rulefan (May 8, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			No need to wait   they can all be found here http://ncrdb.usga.org/

Click to expand...

The rating information relating to all clubs has not yet been forward to this site by the national authorities.
The ladies' tees are already on because their tees have been rated to the USGA method for over 10 years.


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## mikejohnchapman (May 8, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Why would there be any argument? It's not a competition and the course ratings are probably as objective as it's possible to be. As far as I know, the vast majority of courses have already been rated with only a few left to be done and they will be given a provisional rating based on the data already available for them.
		
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To be fair this was always the plan. Rating is the responsibilites of the county and some have done more than others. A provisional rating was always going to be used for those not done so the new handicap indexes could be calculated prior to November start.

Suspect there will still be some as when normality returns (or what will equate to it) there will be a glut for England Golf to process.


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## rulefan (May 8, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			To be fair this was always the plan. Rating is the responsibilites of the county and some have done more than others. A provisional rating was always going to be used for those not done so the new handicap indexes could be calculated prior to November start.

Suspect there will still be some as when normality returns (or what will equate to it) there will be a glut for England Golf to process.
		
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I understand that here are 80/90% done but varies by county.


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## rulefan (May 8, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Strange. I’m taking it directly from the Swedish golf associations site where it says:

No pre-registration is needed.
You do not need to advise or pre-register a round for handicap purposes. As long as you play within the rules of golf you can simply register your round on “your golf” once finished.

“Your golf” is, I believe, the National golf identity account.
		
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Thanks for the information.

Yes, I can confirm that Sweden has has gone for the USGA approach (ie no pre-declaration). This is different to the old EGA condition.
It is not clear if this is an EGA change or if Sweden has gone UDI, as it seems that the EGA has not published a WHS manual yet.
Although CONGU has not formally published yet, the draft maintains the Supplementary Score ethos.

Apparently _Golfförbundet_ can be translated as _Association_ or_ Federation, _which threw me for a bit.


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## NearHull (May 8, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Can't work this out at all. Had a look at my own club's slope which is 136 off the Blue tees and 134 off White.

Front 9 is 129 off both Blue and White. Back 9 is 142 Blue and 137 White.

Front 9 is by far the harder 9 on about 360 days of the year.

System is either very flawed or whoever rated the course doesn't play golf 

Click to expand...

I have assisted in rating courses though I have not undertaken any formal training course but I do think that the measuring system is so number driven that a non golfer could Just about carry out the rating


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## rosecott (May 8, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Can't work this out at all. Had a look at my own club's slope which is 136 off the Blue tees and 134 off White.

Front 9 is 129 off both Blue and White. Back 9 is 142 Blue and 137 White.

Front 9 is by far the harder 9 on about 360 days of the year.

System is either very flawed or *whoever rated the course doesn't play golf* 

Click to expand...

They do play golf bu the assessment is meant to be predominantly objective.


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## doublebogey7 (May 8, 2020)

Are 



rulefan said:



			The rating information relating to all clubs has not yet been forward to this site by the national authorities.
The ladies' tees are already on because their tees have been rated to the USGA method for over 10 years.
		
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Are you sure, it looks like they've been loaded for my County Union.


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## rulefan (May 8, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			Are
Are you sure, it looks like they've been loaded for my County Union.
		
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I did say that not* all *data has been forwarded (loaded). That means some has.


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## Deleted member 3432 (May 8, 2020)

rosecott said:



			They do play golf bu the assessment is meant to be predominantly objective.
		
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Criteria they use to come up with the numbers is flawed then.


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## rulefan (May 8, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Can't work this out at all. Had a look at my own club's slope which is 136 off the Blue tees and 134 off White.

Front 9 is 129 off both Blue and White. Back 9 is 142 Blue and 137 White.

Front 9 is by far the harder 9 on about 360 days of the year.

System is either very flawed or whoever rated the course doesn't play golf 

Click to expand...

Or you don't really understand the system. 

Slope doesn't tell you very much without knowing the Course Rating.
All it does tell you is the *relative* difficulty between a scratch and bogey player.

And I can assure you that course raters are fully trained and experienced golfers. However, as said earlier, the process is objective not subjective. And has been tried and tested over many years all round the world except in England (by the men).


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## NearHull (May 8, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Criteria they use to come up with the numbers is flawed then.
		
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 I assume you are referring to Silloth.  In my very limited knowledge the playing distance of a course creates the largest impact to the rating.  I note that your back nine is greater, ie  10% longer than the front nine, which may well account for the differences you have seen.


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## rulefan (May 8, 2020)

NearHull said:



			I assume you are referring to Silloth.  In my very limited knowledge the playing distance of a course creates the largest impact to the rating.  I note that your back nine is greater, ie  10% longer than the front nine, which may well account for the differences you have seen.
		
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Good point. However, although greater length certainly increases the Course Rating, it may have a different (lesser or greater) effect on Slope.


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## Deleted member 3432 (May 8, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Slope doesn't tell you very much without knowing the Course Rating.
All it does tell you is the *relative* difficulty between a scratch and bogey player.

And I can assure you that course raters are fully trained and experienced golfers. However, as said earlier, the process is objective not subjective.
		
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Course rating is 72.6 Blue (35.3 front,37.3 back) and 71.8 White (34.9 front and 36.9 back)


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## Griffsters (May 8, 2020)

I'm really hoping at some point this year there will be a way of submitting scores so I an get some recent rounds in that count towards my initial WHS index. I'm looking forward to it, i'd love to see the development of apps that allow online scoring from HDiD  / Club V2 etc, some form of digital verification of scores by playing partner

I was going through it last night and by my working out (could be wrong!) my handicap of 14.5 will change to 13.3 Handicap Index under the new way of working.


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## rulefan (May 8, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Course rating is 72.6 Blue (35.3 front,37.3 back) and 71.8 White (34.9 front and 36.9 back)
		
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That suggests that the length has an influence. 




			Front 9 is by far the harder 9 on about 360 days of the year.
		
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Have you used your club software to check actual playing difficulty of each hole or is it how players in general feel?
Incidentally, to what extent do you believe the wind has an effect on each half?

PS what were your old SSS values?


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## Deleted member 3432 (May 8, 2020)

NearHull said:



			I assume you are referring to Silloth.  In my very limited knowledge the playing distance of a course creates the largest impact to the rating.  I note that your back nine is greater, ie  10% longer than the front nine, which may well account for the differences you have seen.
		
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The longer 9 is the easier 9, prevailing wind at your back for 8 holes as opposed to in your face for 8 holes on the front 9.

 Back 9 may look longer on the card but front 9 plays longer day in day out.


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## rulefan (May 8, 2020)

Griffsters said:



			I'm really hoping at some point this year there will be a way of submitting scores so I an get some recent rounds in that count towards my initial WHS index. I'm looking forward to it, i'd love to see the development of apps that allow online scoring from HDiD  / Club V2 etc, some form of digital verification of scores by playing partner

I was going through it last night and by my working out (could be wrong!) my handicap of 14.5 will change to 13.3 Handicap Index under the new way of working.
		
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Within the normal expectations


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## Deleted member 3432 (May 8, 2020)

rulefan said:



			That suggests that the length has an influence.


Have you used your club software to check actual playing difficulty of each hole or is it how players in general feel?
Incidentally, to what extent do you believe the wind has an effect on each half?

PS what were your old SSS values?
		
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Old sss were 73 and 72.

Hardest hole is usually 13th, followed by 5th and 7th.

Easiest holes are usually 14th and 17th.

Anyone who plays there regularly will say the front 9 is hardest.

Wind I reckon is worth 2 shots on either 9. For example anytime I have shot level par or better I have been a couple over par at the turn and 2 or 3 under par coming home.

Don't get me wrong the back 9 is brutal when played into the wind but that is only a handful of days a year.

I reckon if I wanted to get to scratch I would just put cards in from playing a 9 holer on the back 9. Just a bit of a yomp to get to the 10th tee however.


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## NearHull (May 8, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Old sss were 73 and 72.

Hardest hole is usually 13th, followed by 5th and 7th.

Easiest holes are usually 14th and 17th.

Anyone who plays there regularly will say the front 9 is hardest.

Wind I reckon is worth 2 shots on either 9. For example anytime I have shot level par or better I have been a couple over par at the turn and 2 or 3 under par coming home.

Don't get me wrong the back 9 is brutal when played into the wind but that is only a handful of days a year.

I reckon if I wanted to get to scratch I would just put cards in from playing a 9 holer on the back 9. Just a bit of a yomp to get to the 10th tee however.
		
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I don’t believe that prevalent wind is ever taken into account for rating.

 I must pull out of the discussion now as I really am at the limit of my knowledge and any more comments would merely be opinion.  (also going out for my daily walk)


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## rulefan (May 8, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Old sss were 73 and 72.

Hardest hole is usually 13th, followed by 5th and 7th.

Easiest holes are usually 14th and 17th.
		
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Are these figures from the actual stats from your system?
Try sorting them into the nines and totting up the two totals.

Without seeing the rating forms,I can't explain it. It does seem unusual.
It might be worth asking the County about it


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## Deleted member 3432 (May 8, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Are these figures from the actual stats from your system?
Try sorting them into the nines and totting up the two totals.

Without seeing the rating forms,I can't explain it. It does seem unusual.
It might be worth asking the County about it
		
Click to expand...

Just had a look on our system, based on 9470 rounds off white tees, front 9 average score (par 35, 3024 yds) 44.77  back 9 average score (par 37, 3384 yds) 45.95.
1435 rounds off blue tees front 9 average score (par 35, 3126yds) 42.35, back 9 average score (par 37, 3515 yds) 43.71. Note blue tee comps usually lower handicap medal or stableford comps only.


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## rulefan (May 8, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Just had a look on our system, based on 9470 rounds off white tees, 
*front* 9 average score (par 35, 3024 yds) *44.77* 
*back *9 average score (par 37, 3384 yds) *45.95*.
1435 rounds off blue tees 
*front* 9 average score (par 35, 3126yds) *42.35*, 
*back* 9 average score (par 37, 3515 yds) *43.71*. Note blue tee comps usually lower handicap medal or stableford comps only.
		
Click to expand...

"Front 9 is by far the harder 9 on about 360 days of the year."


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## rulefan (May 8, 2020)

NearHull said:



			I don’t believe that prevalent wind is ever taken into account for rating.
		
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It is.


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## IanG (May 8, 2020)

Rulefan, 
where sufficient scoring statistics are available from the club  are they looked at when rating a course ? 
Thanks


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## Deleted member 3432 (May 8, 2020)

rulefan said:



			"Front 9 is by far the harder 9 on about 360 days of the year."
		
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Slope front 9 is 129 which suggests for bogey golfer it should be 'easier' than the back 9 which is slope 137 white and 142 blue yet play plays more over par?

I know playing an 18 holer it doesn't really meant a lot but declaring to play 9 holes its a no brainer, you would  be bonkers to play the front 9 in normal conditions which is a shame because the front 9 is superb.


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## NearHull (May 8, 2020)

rulefan said:



			It is.
		
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Could you expand please, I am genuinely interested.


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## mikejohnchapman (May 8, 2020)

rulefan said:



			It is.
		
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I have always been dubious about the impact of the wind assessment (1 to 5) on the overall course rating.

However, I accept this has been tried and tested for many years in different geographies so I guess I must accept it's just different and like many things going forward will just be the new normal and not worth worrying about.


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## rulefan (May 8, 2020)

IanG said:



			Rulefan,
where sufficient scoring statistics are available from the club  are they looked at when rating a course ?
Thanks
		
Click to expand...

No. But I am not aware of any statistics produced which differentiate between scores for players of various handicaps (in particular scratch and bogey).


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## rulefan (May 8, 2020)

NearHull said:



			Could you expand please, I am genuinely interested.
		
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A brief extract from the rateing guide.
_A yardage adjustment for wind should be made based on average daily wind speed at times when golf is played. Wind increases the effect of other obstacles._

There is quite a lot more including a wind speed adjustment table which only of value to a trained rater when actually rating the course.


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## rulefan (May 8, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I have always been dubious about the impact of the wind assessment (1 to 5) on the overall course rating.
		
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I'm not sure what you are referring to in the manual.


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## IanG (May 8, 2020)

rulefan said:



			No. But I am not aware of any statistics produced which differentiate between scores for players of various handicaps (in particular scratch and bogey).
		
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Thanks, I expect such data for scratch and bogey players could be extracted from playing records with a little effort from the software provider. Would provide an interesting comparison with the outcome of the rating and maybe help identify 'unusual' courses. 

Anyhow plenty else to be getting on with !


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## upsidedown (May 8, 2020)

I remember in NZ my course out there had  its slope adjusted on the back of scores recorded over a period of years. Wonder if WHS will do this ?


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## rulefan (May 8, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			I remember in NZ my course out there had  its slope adjusted on the back of scores recorded over a period of years. Wonder if WHS will do this ?
		
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Were they using the USGA course rating system then?


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## upsidedown (May 8, 2020)

I think so  was around 2010 . I know I got a shot back ,😉😁 when it was applied


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## rulefan (May 8, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			I think so  was around 2010 . I know I got a shot back ,😉😁 when it was applied
		
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If they were using it the change would have been as a result of either a standard periodic review or a request by the club. The raters would not have used scoring figures directly.
The system requires rating reviews periodically, if a course has been altered or on request by a club. According to the circumstances, this might be a full inspection or just the hole(s) affected. If there has been a significant change to the rating procedure which could affect certain courses, this may prompt a review. eg the way trees are considered was subtly changed about a year or so ago but was not considered significant enough to have any noticeable effect.


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## Orikoru (Aug 5, 2020)

Just bumping this topic because I have a question.

Out of idle curiosity I tried to find out my course's slope rating as I figured they must have done that by now, and they have: https://ncrdb.usga.org/courseTeeInfo.aspx?CourseID=20373 

So off the whites the slope rating is 131. I've read that 113 is the neutral/middle number. So does 131 mean the course is deemed harder than average? Does that mean my index will be lower than what my current handicap is? I'm guessing it's that way round since off yellows it's 122. That seems like quite a difference as well, how will that affect my handicap cap index playing off either tee?


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## Swango1980 (Aug 5, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Just bumping this topic because I have a question.

Out of idle curiosity I tried to find out my course's slope rating as I figured they must have done that by now, and they have: https://ncrdb.usga.org/courseTeeInfo.aspx?CourseID=20373

So off the whites the slope rating is 131. I've read that 113 is the neutral/middle number. So does 131 mean the course is deemed harder than average? Does that mean my index will be lower than what my current handicap is? I'm guessing it's that way round since off yellows it's 122. That seems like quite a difference as well, how will that affect my handicap cap index playing off either tee?
		
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Course Handicap = index x Slope/113. From my calcs, it seems most people will have an Index a bit lower than current handicap, although will of course depend on their last 20 scores so will he some variations. Most slopes for courses I have looked at are over 113, in fact I think virtually all of them were in north Lincolnshire, so probably same all over. Generally range from 120ish to 150ish


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## Orikoru (Aug 5, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Course Handicap = index x Slope/113. From my calcs, it seems most people will have an Index a bit lower than current handicap, although will of course depend on their last 20 scores so will he some variations. Most slopes for courses I have looked at are over 113, in fact I think virtually all of them were in north Lincolnshire, so probably same all over. Generally range from 120ish to 150ish
		
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I've been searching a few of the local course that we've played on. Two of them were 110 and 112 off yellows. None of them were below 113 off the whites though. My course Haste Hill off whites was the second highest slope rating of the bunch at 131. So for the majority of the other local courses I'm going to be playing off a couple of shots less than I would at my home course it seems like?

I'm trying to sort of backwards engineer this - given that my 15.9 handicap is based on a 131 slope course now, could I reasonably expect my new handicap index to be as low as 14 I guess? Unless my 'average of 8 best rounds' is somehow much higher than 15.9.


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## howbow88 (Aug 5, 2020)

My course has been done off the reds, but none of the others yet...


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## jim8flog (Aug 5, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			My course has been done off the reds, but none of the others yet...
		
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A lot of the reds were done several years ago and there will a few courses like yours


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## Swango1980 (Aug 5, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I've been searching a few of the local course that we've played on. Two of them were 110 and 112 off yellows. None of them were below 113 off the whites though. My course Haste Hill off whites was the second highest slope rating of the bunch at 131. So for the majority of the other local courses I'm going to be playing off a couple of shots less than I would at my home course it seems like?

I'm trying to sort of backwards engineer this - given that my 15.9 handicap is based on a 131 slope course now, could I reasonably expect my new handicap index to be as low as 14 I guess? Unless my 'average of 8 best rounds' is somehow much higher than 15.9.
		
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I wouldn't pay too much focus on your current handicap to be honest. If you knew your last 20 scores against SSS/CSS you could work it your index though (and more specifically, your best 8 within those). But, certainly, if you go to play other courses with lower slopes, you will play off a lower handicap on those courses (depending on how much lower and where decimal lies). Or, simply, you could work out %. If your slope is 131, and you play at easy course with 112, then at easy course your course handicap would be 112/131 of your course handicap ar your place (about 85%). If you went to course with slope of 150, your handicap there would be 150/131 compared to your course (about 115%)


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## jim8flog (Aug 5, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I've been searching a few of the local course that we've played on. Two of them were 110 and 112 off yellows. None of them were below 113 off the whites though. My course Haste Hill off whites was the second highest slope rating of the bunch at 131. So for the majority of the other local courses I'm going to be playing off a couple of shots less than I would at my home course it seems like?

I'm trying to sort of backwards engineer this - given that my 15.9 handicap is based on a 131 slope course now, could I reasonably expect my new handicap index to be as low as 14 I guess? Unless my 'average of 8 best rounds' is somehow much higher than 15.9.
		
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It is easier to work it out correctly and go from there.

Check you handicap history assuming you have at least 20 since January 2018 just look at the last 20 only and pick the best 8,  total and then divide by 8 to get your approximate Handicap index. Use the whole of the number in the equation given by Swango and round afterwards. 

If you have less than 20 since Januray 18 then you do not use 8.

our 18 hole course yellow and whites are 124/128 I will go up about a stroke.
our 9 hole course when played as 18 is 112 and I will lose about half a stroke 
compared to current handicap. Eg  on the 18 hole course current 9.6 will become 10.8/10.5
Decimal points could be making a difference for me as I am on the cusp either way with rounding.


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## Lilyhawk (Aug 5, 2020)

Our slope rating is higher on the yellow tees than from the white. Only by 1, but still. Seem a bit strange, but then again, I don’t know how it works, and I don’t really care either.


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## nickjdavis (Aug 5, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			So does 131 mean the course is deemed harder than average?
		
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No.

What it means is that it is harder for a bogey golfer relative to a scratch golfer, than other courses with a lower Slope Rating.

The absolute difficulty of a golf course is quantified by the Course Rating for Scratch Golfers and Bogey Rating for Bogey golfers. It is perfectly possible to have a course with a lower Course Rating but a higher slope rating than another course...because slope is all about the relative difficulty for a bogey golfer compared to a scratch golfer. So a short narrow course may well have a lower Course Rating (because the predominant factor in CR is measured length) but a higher slope rating because Bogey golfers tend to be a bit more wayward and might be punished more at the narrower course. Also, the shorter hitting bogey golfer may well find that some hazards come into play that just don't figure during the scratch golfers game.

Take my home course which is only 5877 yards off the whites and another Suffolk club which has a length of 6685yds...so over 800 yards difference.....our course rating is 68.7 and our bogey rating is 91.8...so a difference of 23.1 shots. The other course has a course rating of 72.3 and a bogey rating of 95.0 ...a difference of 22.7 shots.....so in actual fact, for a bogey golfer our course is 0.4 shots harder than the other course RELATIVE to what a scratch golfer would score.

Our slope is 124 and the other course is 123. No one who has ever played either course would suggest that ours is harder than the other in absolute difficulty terms...but the way the new WHS works, it is harder for a bogey golfer relative to a scratch golfer than the other course.

Its that term...."relative".


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## Deleted member 3432 (Aug 5, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			No.

What it means is that it is harder for a bogey golfer relative to a scratch golfer, than other courses with a lower Slope Rating.

The absolute difficulty of a golf course is quantified by the Course Rating for Scratch Golfers and Bogey Rating for Bogey golfers. It is perfectly possible to have a course with a lower Course Rating but a higher slope rating than another course...because slope is all about the relative difficulty for a bogey golfer compared to a scratch golfer. So a short narrow course may well have a lower Course Rating (because the predominant factor in CR is measured length) but a higher slope rating because Bogey golfers tend to be a bit more wayward and might be punished more at the narrower course. Also, the shorter hitting bogey golfer may well find that some hazards come into play that just don't figure during the scratch golfers game.

Take my home course which is only 5877 yards off the whites and another Suffolk club which has a length of 6685yds...so over 800 yards difference.....our course rating is 68.7 and our bogey rating is 91.8...so a difference of 23.1 shots. The other course has a course rating of 72.3 and a bogey rating of 95.0 ...a difference of 22.7 shots.....so in actual fact, for a bogey golfer our course is 0.4 shots harder than the other course RELATIVE to what a scratch golfer would score.

Our slope is 124 and the other course is 123. No one who has ever played either course would suggest that ours is harder than the other in absolute difficulty terms...but the way the new WHS works, it is harder for a bogey golfer relative to a scratch golfer than the other course.

Its that term...."relative".
		
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How does it all work for us that are neither scratch or bogey golfers but somewhere in the middle?


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## Swango1980 (Aug 5, 2020)

saving_par said:



			How does it all work for us that are neither scratch or bogey golfers but somewhere in the middle?
		
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It just simply works out linearly for all. For someone in between, they will get more added to their handicap compared to scratch, but not as much as bogey. So, if a bogey golfer got 2 shots more, a 9-11 handicapper may only get 1 more shot. And, it continues on to golfers worse than bogey, who will get more again.

Basically, a zero handicapper will always have a zero course handicap, regardless of course. At high slope courses, the higher the handicap index, the bigger the course handicap increase relative to lower handicappers.


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## rosie (Aug 6, 2020)

Will our transition handicap index be worked out using course rating or sss, before the css adjustment?


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## jim8flog (Aug 6, 2020)

rosie said:



			Will our transition handicap index be worked out using course rating or sss, before the css adjustment?
		
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Good question but it would be the CSS that is used not SSS as it it differentials that it based on and differential is compared to CSS.


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## rulefan (Aug 7, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			I've been searching a few of the local course that we've played on. Two of them were 110 and 112 off yellows. None of them were below 113 off the whites though. My course Haste Hill off whites was the second highest slope rating of the bunch at 131. So for the majority of the other local courses I'm going to be playing off a couple of shots less than I would at my home course it seems like?

I'm trying to sort of backwards engineer this - given that my 15.9 handicap is based on a 131 slope course now, could I reasonably expect my new handicap index to be as low as 14 I guess? Unless my 'average of 8 best rounds' is somehow much higher than 15.9.
		
Click to expand...

Slope and handicap only makes sense if you have the Course Rating


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## rulefan (Aug 7, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			My course has been done off the reds, but none of the others yet...
		
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All courses in GB&I, except *men's* courses in England have been rated to the USGA specification for at least 10 years. The English Golf Union as was decided that they would only rate courses for scratch players and ignore bogey and slope rating. We have spent the last couple of years trying to catch up.


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## IanMcC (Aug 8, 2020)

rosie said:



			Will our transition handicap index be worked out using course rating or sss, before the css adjustment?
		
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This is a great question, and i have been wondering about this myself. I have given all my friends ratings based on CSS, as per their best 8 out of last 20 gross differentials, but obviously there will be a difference if WHS uses course rating, which I think they should. The delay in answering probably means that even the ones close to the decision making dont really know. All logic points to Course rating, but I dont know if the software is up to it.


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## rulefan (Aug 8, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			This is a great question, and i have been wondering about this myself. I have given all my friends ratings based on CSS, as per their best 8 out of last 20 gross differentials, but obviously there will be a difference if WHS uses course rating, which I think they should. The delay in answering probably means that even the ones close to the decision making dont really know. All logic points to Course rating, but I dont know if the software is up to it.
		
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CSS will be used. CSS is more appropriate as it roughly equates with PCC used in calculating the Score Differential
The software is certainly up to it as both SSS/CR and CSS are available in the CDH records.


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## howbow88 (Aug 8, 2020)

rulefan said:



			All courses in GB&I, except *men's* courses in England have been rated to the USGA specification for at least 10 years. The English Golf Union as was decided that they would only rate courses for scratch players and ignore bogey and slope rating. We have spent the last couple of years trying to catch up.
		
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Do you have any idea what sort of percentage of UK courses (from the men's tees) have been rated so far? I'm hoping mine isn't left out


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## cliveb (Aug 8, 2020)

rulefan said:



			CSS will be used. CSS is more appropriate as it roughly equates with PCC used in calculating the Score Differential
The software is certainly up to it as both SSS/CR and CSS are available in the CDH records.
		
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Why won't the initial HCP indexes be calculated using de-sloped net differentials? All the courses will need to have CR and slope ratings by the time WHS begins, so the necessary data is available. Is it only because there will not be any PCC available for historic rounds? Can't a PCC be estimated from CSS?


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## nickjdavis (Aug 8, 2020)

cliveb said:



			Why won't the initial HCP indexes be calculated using de-sloped net differentials? All the courses will need to have CR and slope ratings by the time WHS begins, so the necessary data is available. Is it only because there will not be any PCC available for historic rounds? Can't a PCC be estimated from CSS?
		
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What makes you think that the indexes wont be calculated using desloped net differentials?

All Rulefans post said was that CSS would be used to determine the nett differential, not Course Rating.


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## jim8flog (Aug 8, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Slope and handicap only makes sense if you have the Course Rating
		
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 The course rating and the SSS are so close where I play that it would not create a big difference

-0.2  off whites 
and 
+0.4 (or -0.1 on the shorter course)


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## Ethan (Aug 8, 2020)

Just as an FYI, I have set up a small spreadsheet for my handicap, and listed the last 20 scores. For each line, I have the date, course rating (based on tee), gross score and a number showing the order in which the scores will disappear, as they become the 21st score and thus fall out of the calc. Then I sort by score, calculate the mean gross (all off same tees), deduct the course rating, x 113/142 (slope) and that gives me an approx handicap. 

So I know that for my scores, my 8th best score is about to expire next time I submit a card, so if I do better than that score, the HI will drop, but if I don't the score will be replaced by the current 9th best score, which is only 1 higher than the 8th, so will have a very minor effect. I also know that my 3rd best score will expire in 4 rounds time, so I need to get a couple of decent scores on the board to make up for it.


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## cliveb (Aug 8, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			What makes you think that the indexes wont be calculated using desloped net differentials?

All Rulefans post said was that CSS would be used to determine the nett differential, not Course Rating.
		
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I interpreted what rulefan said as implying that the differentials used would just be gross score against CSS.
He didn't mention de-sloping, and I probably got the wrong end of the stick.


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## nickjdavis (Aug 8, 2020)

cliveb said:



			I interpreted what rulefan said as implying that the differentials used would just be gross score against CSS.
He didn't mention de-sloping, and I probably got the wrong end of the stick.
		
Click to expand...

Thats ok...you had me worried in case I'd missed something where it was mentioned that desloping wouldnt happen!!!


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## rulefan (Aug 8, 2020)

cliveb said:



			I interpreted what rulefan said as implying that the differentials used would just be gross score against CSS.
He didn't mention de-sloping, and I probably got the wrong end of the stick.
		
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As the question was about SSS or CSS I just answered that point. De-sloping was a given.
I intended to imply that CSS embraced the PCC concept in that CSS was the 'equivalent' of CR and PCC together


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## larmen (Aug 8, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Just as an FYI, I have set up a small spreadsheet for my handicap, and listed the last 20 scores. For each line, I have the date, course rating (based on tee), gross score and a number showing the order in which the scores will disappear, as they become the 21st score and thus fall out of the calc. Then I sort by score, calculate the mean gross (all off same tees), deduct the course rating, x 113/142 (slope) and that gives me an approx handicap.

So I know that for my scores, my 8th best score is about to expire next time I submit a card, so if I do better than that score, the HI will drop, but if I don't the score will be replaced by the current 9th best score, which is only 1 higher than the 8th, so will have a very minor effect. I also know that my 3rd best score will expire in 4 rounds time, so I need to get a couple of decent scores on the board to make up for it.
		
Click to expand...

I am learning Python at the moment and that pretty much is what I have in my spec sheet as wel for a little project  to apply the skills. I added to it 'unofficial rounds' I play that are not handicap counting and where my handicap could be. That way I think I can compare my competition performance against my others and/or overall. Especially once the courses are properly sloped as well. I think the whites go into my head and add a handful of strokes, even with only 2 or  3 holes really playing that much different.

Where  I am struggling is my understanding of a 9 hole round and how to fit it in (not really important as they are all unofficial anyway) and I don't find a slope for that course anyway. 

I think learning a tool or language is much easier when doing it with data  you are interested in.


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## Ethan (Aug 9, 2020)

larmen said:



			I am learning Python at the moment and that pretty much is what I have in my spec sheet as wel for a little project  to apply the skills. I added to it 'unofficial rounds' I play that are not handicap counting and where my handicap could be. That way I think I can compare my competition performance against my others and/or overall. Especially once the courses are properly sloped as well. I think the whites go into my head and add a handful of strokes, even with only 2 or  3 holes really playing that much different.

Where  I am struggling is my understanding of a 9 hole round and how to fit it in (not really important as they are all unofficial anyway) and I don't find a slope for that course anyway.

I think learning a tool or language is much easier when doing it with data  you are interested in.
		
Click to expand...

That is a good idea, although I don't really play non-qualifying rounds. I tend to get one round in a week, and our club offers an opt-in stablefordon Sat and Sun if there isn't a medal or other comp, so I invariably enter that.


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## howbow88 (Aug 15, 2020)

I've done some reading but am looking for some clarification on this rough scenario...  

Player A has a handicap index of 5, player B has a handicap index of 25. They turn up to a very tight, but fairly short course and are playing off tees which give a total distance of 6000 yards. Trees everywhere and if you go right or left, you're in big trouble. 

My understanding of what I've read so far, would be that player A for this sort of course will probably be playing that day around their handicap index of 5 - they're less likely to hit it left and right, and it isn't a long course. Player B will likely have shots added on for that particular course, because although it isn't long, they are likely to spray it about...

Would that be a fair simplification?


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## rulefan (Aug 15, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			I've done some reading but am looking for some clarification on this rough scenario...

Player A has a handicap index of 5, player B has a handicap index of 25. They turn up to a very tight, but fairly short course and are playing off tees which give a total distance of 6000 yards. Trees everywhere and if you go right or left, you're in big trouble.

My understanding of what I've read so far, would be that player A for this sort of course will probably be playing that day around their handicap index of 5 - they're less likely to hit it left and right, and it isn't a long course. Player B will likely have shots added on for that particular course, because although it isn't long, they are likely to spray it about...

Would that be a fair simplification?
		
Click to expand...

Pretty well. Does your imagined course have a low Course Rating and a high Slope rating? That would produce the outcome you describe.


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## woofers (Aug 15, 2020)

That's a fair simplification, they will both have the same % or ratio increase to their handicap index based on the course slope rating. As A has a low handicap index his increase will be corresponding lower than B's.
For example on a course with a slope rating of 125, A would have a course handicap of (125/113 * 5)= 5.53 and B (125/113 * 25)= 27.65. 
Playing in an individual event their competition handicaps would be, A 5.53*95% = 5.25(5) and B 27.65*95%= 26.26 (26).


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## rulefan (Aug 15, 2020)

woofers said:



			Playing in an individual event their *competition* *handicaps* would be, A 5.53*95% = 5.25(5) and B 27.65*95%= 26.26 (26).
		
Click to expand...

'Playing handicaps'


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## howbow88 (Aug 15, 2020)

Cheers guys


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## nickjdavis (Aug 15, 2020)

woofers said:



			That's a fair simplification, they will both have the same % or ratio increase to their handicap index based on the course slope rating. As A has a low handicap index his increase will be corresponding lower than B's.
For example on a course with a slope rating of 125, A would have a course handicap of (125/113 * 5)= 5.53 and B (125/113 * 25)= 27.65.
Playing in an individual event their competition handicaps would be, A 5.53*95% = 5.25(5) and B 27.65*95%= 26.26 (26).
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that is quite correct (but happy to be shown the error of my ways)

A's course handicap would be (125/113*5) = 5.53 which would be rounded to 6. 95% of 6 would be 5.7 which would result in a playing handicap of 6.

B's course handicap would be (125/113*25) = 27.65 which would be rounded to 28. 95% of 28 would be 26.6 which would result in a playing handicap of 27.

I know that a while ago it was suggested that rounding only took place at then end of all calculations but this is simply not practical. If I turn up to play and only have the physical course rating tables to look at (i.e no computer/app) then all course handicaps in the tables are displayed as integers....therefore all playing handicap must surely be calculated using the integer course handicap (not decimal)...???


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## Orikoru (Aug 15, 2020)

Way too complicated with all the numbers people are throwing about. The existing system is so much easier to understand. I think the positive might be that I stop worrying about how my handicap will be affected by a round when I haven't got the foggiest clue anyway.


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## Old Skier (Aug 15, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Way too complicated with all the numbers people are throwing about. The existing system is so much easier to understand. I think the positive might be that I stop worrying about how my handicap will be affected by a round when I haven't got the foggiest clue anyway.
		
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I wouldn’t mind betting the same things were said with the introduction of the SSS/CSS system.


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## Orikoru (Aug 15, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I wouldn’t mind betting the same things were said with the introduction of the SSS/CSS system.
		
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Dunno mate. That's all I've ever known.


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## woofers (Aug 15, 2020)

From the slides at the WHS presentation by England Golf:

Playing Handicap Calculation
The calculation of a Playing Handicap is an adjustment to the Course Handicap by any handicap allowances in operation for the format of play:
Course Handicap x Handicap Allowance = Playing Handicap 
Example:
This event is a Singles Stroke Play Competition.
Course Handicap 16.4 x Allowance 95% = Playing Handicap 15.5 (16)


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## woofers (Aug 15, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Way too complicated with all the numbers people are throwing about. The existing system is so much easier to understand. I think the positive might be that I stop worrying about how my handicap will be affected by a round when I haven't got the foggiest clue anyway.
		
Click to expand...

You shouldn’t have to do any of the calculations yourself, there should be a lookup chart for your course handicap.


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## Bert (Aug 16, 2020)

Listen to this if you have a spare hour. It’s brilliant and explains everything simply. 
https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-rick-shiels-golf-show/id1406443091?i=1000485494331


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 16, 2020)

woofers said:



			You shouldn’t have to do any of the calculations yourself, there should be a lookup chart for your course handicap.
		
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I know there are club members who take on positions of handicap sec etc- and I am grateful that they do all this work for the rest of us.
From what I can read here, it is they who need to know all these calculations etc.
As an ordinary member playing maybe a stableford comp once a week or so, am I correct in thinking that all I need to know about this system is what my handicap index is?  So,
When I turn up to play the competition, I enter my details into the computer, give my handicap index and then I am informed what my handicap is for that competition, the computer having made all these calculations?

Well, I  hope that's all I have to do😀


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## nickjdavis (Aug 16, 2020)

woofers said:



			From the slides at the WHS presentation by England Golf:

Playing Handicap Calculation
The calculation of a Playing Handicap is an adjustment to the Course Handicap by any handicap allowances in operation for the format of play:
Course Handicap x Handicap Allowance = Playing Handicap
Example:
This event is a Singles Stroke Play Competition.
Course Handicap 16.4 x Allowance 95% = Playing Handicap 15.5 (16)
		
Click to expand...

Yep I get this....but if you use the Course Handicap Tables (which will be "published" either somewhere in the clubhouse or by the first tee) to determine your course handicap....these tables only give you your course handicap as in integer. The slides from the WHS presentations shows Course Handicap as a number to 1 decimal place.

You cannot have one set of golfers determining their playing handicap by doing 95% * 5.5 = 5.225 = 5 and another set doing 95%*6= 5.7 = 6. That's just crazy.

There has got to be consistency so two gofers playing the same course, off the same handicap arrive at the same playing handicap, irrespective of whether they used the Course Handicap Tables to determine their course handicap or an electronic terminal or mobile app.


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## rulefan (Aug 16, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I know there are club members who take on positions of handicap sec etc- and I am grateful that they do all this work for the rest of us.
From what I can read here, it is they who need to know all these calculations etc.
As an ordinary member playing maybe a stableford comp once a week or so, am I correct in thinking that all I need to know about this system is what my handicap index is?  So,
When I turn up to play the competition, I enter my details into the computer, give my handicap index and then I am informed what my handicap is for that competition, the computer having made all these calculations?

Well, I  hope that's all I have to do😀
		
Click to expand...

That's it.
In fact, handicap secs don't* need *to know much more. In the same way that no one *needs* to know how to do the CSS calculation under CONGU


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## IanG (Aug 16, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			You cannot have one set of golfers determining their playing handicap by doing 95% * 5.5 = 5.225 = 5 and another set doing 95%*6= 5.7 = 6. That's just crazy.
		
Click to expand...

This rounding issue has been floating around for ages and there seems to be no definitive answer about what procedure will be adopted. Three months out from rollout you would think the software vendors will have been told what to implement so why is not being released to the public?


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## jim8flog (Aug 16, 2020)

larmen said:



			Where  I am struggling is my understanding of a 9 hole round and how to fit it in (not really important as they are all unofficial anyway) and I don't find a slope for that course anyway.
		
Click to expand...

Look at the slope rating Data base and you may find the slope rating for the 9 hole on there

https://ncrdb.usga.org/

5.1b For a 9-hole Score
A 9-hole score is scaled up to an equivalent 18-hole Score Differential for
immediate use in the scoring record.
l A 9-hole score is scaled up to an equivalent 18-hole Score Differential by
adding *net* pars for the remaining holes plus one additional stroke (which is
applied to the first hole not played)*, 
l The second 9 holes used for scaling up is always the same 9 holes that have
been played.
A 9-hole score is scaled up to an equivalent 18-hole Score Differential as follows
and rounded to the nearest tenth, with .5 rounded upwards:

Score Differential = (113 ÷Slope Rating) x (adjusted gross score –Course Rating – (0.5 x PCC adjustment))



* i.e. 17 points in Stableford format


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## jim8flog (Aug 16, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			I've done some reading but am looking for some clarification on this rough scenario... 

Player A has a handicap index of 5, player B has a handicap index of 25. They turn up to a very tight, but fairly short course and are playing off tees which give a total distance of 6000 yards. Trees everywhere and if you go right or left, you're in big trouble.

My understanding of what I've read so far, would be that player A for this sort of course will probably be playing that day around their handicap index of 5 - they're less likely to hit it left and right, and it isn't a long course. Player B will likely have shots added on for that particular course, because although it isn't long, they are likely to spray it about...

Would that be a fair simplification?
		
Click to expand...


Yes.  In simple terms the harder the course the higher the slope rating and therefore the more shots a player will receive.

In slightly more complicated terms the 5 handicappper will get less 'additional'  shots because his multiplication factor is 5 and the 25 handicappers is 25.

Your description of a course fits ours (Slope 128 off whites)
the 5 index player will get 6 shots the 25 gets 28


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## jim8flog (Aug 16, 2020)

Orikoru said:



			Way too complicated with all the numbers people are throwing about. The existing system is so much easier to understand. I think the positive might be that I stop worrying about how my handicap will be affected by a round when I haven't got the foggiest clue anyway.
		
Click to expand...

  In the main you will not have to worry about in anyway.

If you play in a qualifying Comp all you have to do is to remember is check the computer or the CDH data base before playing again to see what what your Handicap  Index is on the day of play next time you play. If it a rubbish round nothing is likely to have changed.

The Course Handicap is simply looked up on a chart, which will be displayed at the club

The only calculation you will have to do for yourself is to work out your Playing Handicap and if you only ever play singles comps it (probably) will be 95% of your your course handicap for all competitions.


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## banjofred (Aug 16, 2020)

Bit of a continuing stink at our course about the slope ratings. There is a course nearby that has been given a higher slope rating than our course and from what everybody I've talked to who occasionally plays that course....ours is a noticeably harder course. I think the mgr is trying to get ours reassessed. This fight has been going quite a while I think.


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## jim8flog (Aug 16, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			I know there are club members who take on positions of handicap sec etc- and I am grateful that they do all this work for the rest of us.
From what I can read here, it is they who need to know all these calculations etc.
As an ordinary member playing maybe a stableford comp once a week or so, am I correct in thinking that all I need to know about this system is what my handicap index is?  So,
When I turn up to play the competition, I enter my details into the computer, give my handicap index and then I am informed what my handicap is for that competition, the computer having made all these calculations?

Well, I  hope that's all I have to do😀
		
Click to expand...

 Nearly right (not seen any system, so far, that converts H.I to course handicap *before* you play. Although this may change.

 Having played in one comp next time you play you look up your Handicap Index on the computer and you use this figure to look up your course handicap on the charts that the club will display. However if the competition has a Playing Handicap limit (95% for singles) you will have to work this out for yourself but I bet someone will start offering charts to do this as well, similarly to ones currently available.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Aug 16, 2020)

banjofred said:



			Bit of a continuing stink at our course about the slope ratings. There is a course nearby that has been given a higher slope rating than our course and from what everybody I've talked to who occasionally plays that course....ours is a noticeably harder course. I think the mgr is trying to get ours reassessed. This fight has been going quite a while I think.
		
Click to expand...

Enter the other clubs opens next year and clean up 👍


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## jim8flog (Aug 16, 2020)

banjofred said:



			Bit of a continuing stink at our course about the slope ratings. There is a course nearby that has been given a higher slope rating than our course and from what everybody I've talked to who occasionally plays that course....ours is a noticeably harder course. I think the mgr is trying to get ours reassessed. This fight has been going quite a while I think.
		
Click to expand...


One of the problems with this I have noticed is that course that were rated several years ago seem to have a variation compared to courses done recently.

My brain lately and the maths involved does make me wonder about this.

Eg Burnham and Berrow, where I have played a lot and consider a much harder course , has yellow slope rating the same as ours and the white is less than ours . However their Course Ratings are much higher than ours.
What the *relative* difference means between our members H.I.s and theirs is I need to work out.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 16, 2020)

banjofred said:



			Bit of a continuing stink at our course about the slope ratings. There is a course nearby that has been given a higher slope rating than our course and from what everybody I've talked to who occasionally plays that course....ours is a noticeably harder course. I think the mgr is trying to get ours reassessed. This fight has been going quite a while I think.
		
Click to expand...

Come on, name them? Oakdale by any chance?


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## rulefan (Aug 16, 2020)

banjofred said:



			Bit of a continuing stink at our course about the slope ratings. There is a course nearby that has been given a higher slope rating than our course and from what everybody I've talked to who occasionally plays that course....ours is a noticeably harder course. I think the mgr is trying to get ours reassessed. This fight has been going quite a while I think.
		
Click to expand...

Remember, slope does* not* tell you the *actual* difficulty of a course.

Course Rating says how difficult it is for a *scratch* player
Bogey Rating says how difficult it is for a *20ish* handicapper

Slope only says how difficult it is *relatively* for a bogey player compared with a scratch player on that course and set of tees.


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## howbow88 (Aug 16, 2020)

banjofred said:



			Bit of a continuing stink at our course about the slope ratings. There is a course nearby that has been given a higher slope rating than our course and from what everybody I've talked to who occasionally plays that course....ours is a noticeably harder course. I think the mgr is trying to get ours reassessed. This fight has been going quite a while I think.
		
Click to expand...

Ours hasn't been assessed as of yet... I am intrigued as to what will happen. It is not a long course but it notoriously difficult, to the point where a lot of our members do well in competitions outside the club. Something that WHS _should _probably change...


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## Ethan (Aug 16, 2020)

Those of you playing at Bearwood Lakes might be interested to know that from the white tees (which I presume you will use), the course rating is 72 and the slope is 142. If you know the same for your own course you can use the opportunity to compare and contrast.


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## rulefan (Aug 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Come on, name them? Oakdale by any chance?
		
Click to expand...

K'boro White
CR = 73.3    Bogey = 97.0    Slope = 128 

Oakdale White
CR = 71.6    Bogey = 97.0    Slope = 137

The CR at K'boro is higher so the course is* more difficult* there for the *scratch* player than at Oakdale

But the difference between CR & BR (ie slope) is greater at Oakdale so the more strokes the higher capper needs to compete with a scratch player *at that course.*

Slope itself tells you nothing about *actual* difficulty

A 10.0 Index player at Oakdale has a Course Handicap of 12
A 20.0 Index player at Oakdale has a Course Handicap of 24
A 30.0 Index player at Oakdale has a Course Handicap of 36

A 10.0 Index player at K'boro has a Course Handicap of 11
A 20.0 Index player at K'boro has a Course Handicap of 23
A 30.0 Index player at K'boro has a Course Handicap of 34

If my maths is right


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## rulefan (Aug 16, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			Ours hasn't been assessed as of yet... I am intrigued as to what will happen. It is not a long course but it notoriously difficult, to the point where a lot of our members do well in competitions outside the club. Something that WHS _should _probably change...
		
Click to expand...

Assuming you are in England, the old SSS had no concept of difficulty for other than scratch players. Your non cat 1 players will be pleased


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## rulefan (Aug 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Those of you playing at Bearwood Lakes might be interested to know that from the white tees (which I presume you will use), the course rating is 72 *and the slope is 142*.
		
Click to expand...

Pretty tough for  ^cappers


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 16, 2020)

rulefan said:



			K'boro White
CR = 73.3    Bogey = 97.0    Slope = 128 

Oakdale White
CR = 71.6    Bogey = 97.0    Slope = 137

The CR at K'boro is higher so the course is* more difficult* there for the *scratch* player than at Oakdale

But the difference between CR & BR (ie slope) is greater at Oakdale so the more strokes the higher capper needs to compete with a scratch player *at that course.*

Slope itself tells you nothing about *actual* difficulty

A 10.0 Index player at Oakdale has a Course Handicap of 12
A 20.0 Index player at Oakdale has a Course Handicap of 24
A 30.0 Index player at Oakdale has a Course Handicap of 36

A 10.0 Index player at K'boro has a Course Handicap of 11
A 20.0 Index player at K'boro has a Course Handicap of 23
A 30.0 Index player at K'boro has a Course Handicap of 34

If my maths is right 

Click to expand...

That all makes sense 🤪. Genuinely, this all reads as gibberish to most people but I'm not worrying about it at this stage. 

I follow a few clubs in N.Yorks, banjos club and Oakdale are two of them. I know there is great competition between the two clubs, they are both cracking members clubs that are a pleasure to play, so my post was a bit of gentle prodding. If banjos club felt put out it was a reasonable bet it was going to be that one. It may not be of course and it really doesn't matter, except to ego 😁.


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## banjofred (Aug 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Come on, name them? Oakdale by any chance?
		
Click to expand...




rulefan said:



			K'boro White
CR = 73.3    Bogey = 97.0    Slope = 128

Oakdale White
CR = 71.6    Bogey = 97.0    Slope = 137

The CR at K'boro is higher so the course is* more difficult* there for the *scratch* player than at Oakdale

But the difference between CR & BR (ie slope) is greater at Oakdale so the more strokes the higher capper needs to compete with a scratch player *at that course.*

Slope itself tells you nothing about *actual* difficulty

A 10.0 Index player at Oakdale has a Course Handicap of 12
A 20.0 Index player at Oakdale has a Course Handicap of 24
A 30.0 Index player at Oakdale has a Course Handicap of 36

A 10.0 Index player at K'boro has a Course Handicap of 11
A 20.0 Index player at K'boro has a Course Handicap of 23
A 30.0 Index player at K'boro has a Course Handicap of 34

If my maths is right 

Click to expand...

The one that keeps coming up is Harrogate. 
Comments from low and higher handicap players. I've never played there. Or any of the other courses....I'm really boring.


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## Foxholer (Aug 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Those of you playing at Bearwood Lakes might be interested to know that from the white tees (which I presume you will use), the course rating is 72 and the slope is 142. If you know the same for your own course you can use the opportunity to compare and contrast.
		
Click to expand...

Mine (Whites) is 72.6/98.8 and 141, so pretty similar (challenging!) ratings. I can vouch for the splendour of Bearwood, though it has been a while since having the privilege of playing there, so there'll undoubtedly have been a number of changes made by the eternally dabbling owner!


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 16, 2020)

banjofred said:



			The one that keeps coming up is Harrogate. 
Comments from low and higher handicap players. I've never played there. Or any of the other courses....I'm really boring.
		
Click to expand...

Oh blimey, your club is right 😂. I've played all of the courses in your area and there is no way Harrogate is tougher than your place, not even close. It's a nice course, shorter and a little tighter but there is no question I will score better there than yours, as will pretty much everyone else. 

You need to be less boring 😁, some lovely courses within 15 minutes of you that are well worth a visit. Opens are your friend.


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## Foxholer (Aug 16, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Remember, slope does* not* tell you the *actual* difficulty of a course.

Course Rating says how difficult it is for a *scratch* player
Bogey Rating says how difficult it is for a *20ish* handicapper

Slope only says how difficult it is *relatively* for a bogey player compared with a scratch player on that course and set of tees.
		
Click to expand...

To 'quantify' the difference between the 2 ratings, imagine a (completely hypothetical/ridiculous, but demonstrative) course comprised of holes with right angle doglegs at 230-250 yards from the tee - tree-lined, so no way of cutting the corners.
Course Rating - defined for Scratch player could well be less than Par - as expectation is they will have the distance to get to the corner and maybe make Birdie if only a relatively short distance to Green. On the other hand a 'Bogey Player' would always be taking 3 shots - at least - to get to the green (often more) so Slope (the *relatively* difficulty) would be high!


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## banjofred (Aug 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Oh blimey, your club is right 😂. I've played all of the courses in your area and there is no way Harrogate is tougher than your place, not even close. It's a nice course, shorter and a little tighter but there is no question I will score better there than yours, as will pretty much everyone else.

You need to be less boring 😁, some lovely courses within 15 minutes of you that are well worth a visit. Opens are your friend.
		
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Wouldn't you know that this was going to be there year I was planning on playing with the Seniors team and maybe the 2nd team...if for no other reason than I would see some other courses.......nothing happening. Although the first team had a comp this afternoon with Rudding Park. The only other local course I have played is Spofforth, which is pay+play. When I was working a couple other teachers and I would go out a few times in the spring when we had time after school. Other than that.....away day at Durham and another away day at Beamish?.... hilly course which a lot of guys didn't like because of that. Also once at Skipton which I would like to go back to, they have since put in a couple of new holes.


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## howbow88 (Aug 16, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Assuming you are in England, the old SSS had no concept of difficulty for other than scratch players. Your non cat 1 players will be pleased
		
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Well, that's what I am a bit interested/concerned about... I'm not cat 1, but we have very few of them. I hope WHS doesn't make things harder on them.


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## woofers (Aug 16, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Those of you playing at Bearwood Lakes might be interested to know that from the white tees (which I presume you will use), the course rating is 72 and the slope is 142.
		
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Whilst that relatively high slope rating will no doubt please the owner, it may come at a bit of a disadvantage to the members.
Lets assume a couple of members have played all their qualifiers there and have handicaps of 12 and 20. I think I’m right in saying these would roughly convert to indices of (12/142x113) = 9.5 and (20/142x113) = 15.9.
Does that sound correct?  Is Bearwood Lakes that tricky ?


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## Ethan (Aug 16, 2020)

woofers said:



			Whilst that relatively high slope rating will no doubt please the owner, it may come at a bit of a disadvantage to the members.
Lets assume a couple of members have played all their qualifiers there and have handicaps of 12 and 20. I think I’m right in saying these would roughly convert to indices of (12/142x113) = 9.5 and (20/142x113) = 15.9.
Does that sound correct?  Is Bearwood Lakes that tricky ?
		
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I don’t think it’s that tricky. In fact there really isn’t much trickery. The course is laid out fairly in front of you. Few of the holes are unreachable in regulation. Greens can be fast, though and some of the bunkers are best avoided. 

I think the handicap needs recalculated, though, based on the 8/20 method. I did that for mine (9.9) and it came out as 9.1. That would give me a course handicap of 11.


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## Foxholer (Aug 16, 2020)

woofers said:



			...Is Bearwood Lakes that tricky ?
		
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Not really 'tricky'...just 'tough/difficult'!


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## rulefan (Aug 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Oh blimey, your club is right 😂. I've played all of the courses in your area and there is no way Harrogate is tougher than your place, not even close. It's a nice course, shorter and a little tighter but there is no question I will score better there than yours, as will pretty much everyone else.

You need to be less boring 😁, some lovely courses within 15 minutes of you that are well worth a visit. Opens are your friend.
		
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Have you tried Wetherby?


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## jim8flog (Aug 16, 2020)

howbow88 said:



			Well, that's what I am a bit interested/concerned about... I'm not cat 1, but we have very few of them. I hope WHS doesn't make things harder on them.
		
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Worth remembering that if a player has a handicap index of zero wherever they play their course handicap will be zero.


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## IanM (Aug 16, 2020)

Am I right in expecting some volatility in handicap index for mid handicappers like my mate whose gross scores recently range between 111 and 88    Currently off 18


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## larmen (Aug 16, 2020)

IanM said:



			Am I right in expecting some volatility in handicap index for mid handicappers like my mate whose gross scores recently range between 111 and 88    Currently off 18
		
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In theory, shouldn't it stay closer to the sharp end?  If your new round isn't in your top counting rounds you just stick rather than get a +0.1.
However, if he played 20 bad ones he gets to  23  fairly quickly?

I have the feeling that every day I understand less and less, but I am looking forward to it more and more ;-)


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 16, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Have you tried Wetherby?
		
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No, I haven't played there. Is it worth a go?

I love Harrogate as a base and it's good to have new courses to try within a short drive of there.


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## rulefan (Aug 16, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			No, I haven't played there. Is it worth a go?
		
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Yes and the two new finishing holes are a bonus.
...........Par....CR....BR....Slope
White...73...72.8...97.8...135 
Blue.....73...72.2...96.7...132
Yellow..73...70.6...94.1...127


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## jim8flog (Aug 16, 2020)

IanM said:



			Am I right in expecting some volatility in handicap index for mid handicappers like my mate whose gross scores recently range between 111 and 88    Currently off 18
		
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 My scores vary wildly between 7 over gross and 20 over gross but averaging of the best means my projected Course Handicap will be within 0.5 of my current handicap.


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## Ethan (Aug 16, 2020)

IanM said:



			Am I right in expecting some volatility in handicap index for mid handicappers like my mate whose gross scores recently range between 111 and 88    Currently off 18
		
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Not necessarily. Once you have a WHS handicap, the interesting part is knowing when scores in your best 8 are about to disappear as they become your 21st last score and therefore fall out of your 20.

If the round that relegates it is a good one and gets into the top 8, probably not too much effect, but if it your best score and the new score is rubbish, then what was previously your 9th best score gets promoted into the top 8, so you could replace 4 or 5 under handicap with 4 or 5 above. That is 10 shots, and averaged over the 8 rounds puts your handicap up by 1.25.

For example, I know that the 2 oldest scores in my current 20 are not on my top 8, but my third oldest is one of my better scores, so if I want to keep my notional WHS stable, I need one good round or a couple of decent ones in the next 3.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 16, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			In the main you will not have to worry about in anyway.

If you play in a qualifying Comp all you have to do is to remember is check the computer or the CDH data base before playing again to see what what your Handicap  Index is on the day of play next time you play. If it a rubbish round nothing is likely to have changed.

The Course Handicap is simply looked up on a chart, which will be displayed at the club

The only calculation you will have to do for yourself is to work out your Playing Handicap and if you only ever play singles comps it (probably) will be 95% of your your course handicap for all competitions.
		
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Well, that is different from what I earlier thought was the case, and which Rulefan confirmed.
I was of the opinion that I had to calculate nothing. I input my handicap index( which is like I have my handicap now), and the computer calculates my playing handicap and informs me .
I.e. I go to a strange course and just do the above.
If however, the computer gives me a value which I then have to use to calculate ( using my computer, aka brain) using another value that I have to locate, then I can see all kinds of "fun" arising.


So, which is it please, gentlemen?


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## jim8flog (Aug 16, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well, that is different from what I earlier thought was the case, and which Rulefan confirmed.
I was of the opinion that I had to calculate nothing. I input my handicap index( which is like I have my handicap now), and the computer calculates my playing handicap and informs me .
I.e. I go to a strange course and just do the above.
If however, the computer gives me a value which I then have to use to calculate ( using my computer, aka brain) using another value that I have to locate, then I can see all kinds of "fun" arising.


So, which is it please, gentlemen?
		
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All of the briefing material I have read says that there will be charts not computers. Many courses like mine only have one PSI computer and the only time it is used is when inputting the scores from a round. Your course handicap is supposed to be on the card before you go out to play and certainly would be needed to be known for match play.

Does your club have more computers for you to access?


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## jim8flog (Aug 16, 2020)

IanM said:



			Am I right in expecting some volatility in handicap index for mid handicappers like my mate whose gross scores recently range between 111 and 88    Currently off 18
		
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One of the other things is that the WHS includes a 'memory of a low Handicap Index' and your handicap index cannot go up above that low handicap index by more than 5 shots in a rolling 365 day period.  It is also restricted in the amount of any one movement above 3 strokes.


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## IanM (Aug 16, 2020)

Interesting comments all to my earlier post...and I don't remember reading anything about the item Jim mentions above...


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## jim8flog (Aug 16, 2020)

I would add that the charts are very simple to use.

You would only have ones relevant to the slope indexes where you play, which for most courses would be 3 one for reds one for yellows and one for whites.

Look at the chart for the tee you will be using, find your Handicap Index in the left column and find your Course handicap in the right column.


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## jim8flog (Aug 16, 2020)

IanM said:



			Interesting comments all to my earlier post...and I don't remember reading anything about the item Jim mentions above...
		
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Firstly (late night) i should have said 5 strokes but it is 'smoothed' so can take time


5.7 Low Handicap Index
The Low Handicap Index represents the demonstrated ability of a player over the
365-day period preceding the day on which the most recent score in their scoring
record was played and provides a reference point against which the current
Handicap Index can be compared.
l A Low Handicap Index is established once a player has at least 20 acceptable
scores in their scoring record.

Cap
The procedure that reduces or limits the amount by which a player’s Handicap
Index can increase when measured against the player’s Low Handicap Index. There
are two trigger points within the cap procedure:
l Soft cap – the point after which there is a reduction in the rate of upward
movement of a Handicap Index.
l Hard cap – the point which sets the maximum limit for the upward movement
of a Handicap Index.
(See Rule 5.8.)

5.8 Limit on Upward Movement of a Handicap Index
There are two trigger points within the cap procedure:
(i) The soft cap. The soft cap is triggered when the difference between a player’s
newly calculated Handicap Index and their Low Handicap Index is greater than
3.0 strokes.
When a calculated Handicap Index increase is greater than 3.0 strokes, the
value above 3.0 strokes is restricted to 50% of the increase.
(ii) The hard cap. The hard cap triggers to restrict the amount by which a
player’s Handicap Index can increase, after application of the soft cap, to no
more than 5.0 strokes above their Low Handicap Index.


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## IanM (Aug 17, 2020)

Thanks.  We'll get used to it. Initially I am sure I will just get on without worrying how its worked out too much. 

I think they lost me with all the videos telling how this will encourage more people to play golf!😁

I can see our seniors ignoring it and running their sectional handicaps on the old system


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## rulefan (Aug 17, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Well, that is different from what I earlier thought was the case, and which Rulefan confirmed.
I was of the opinion that I had to calculate nothing. I input my handicap index( which is like I have my handicap now), and the computer calculates my playing handicap and informs me .
I.e. I go to a strange course and just do the above.
If however, the computer gives me a value which I then have to use to calculate ( using my computer, aka brain) using another value that I have to locate, then I can see all kinds of "fun" arising.


So, which is it please, gentlemen?
		
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1) Boards are the basic facility. And realistically can only give Course Handicap.
2) If clubs use PSI entry terminals, the competition entry will show (and/or print) Playing Handicaps
3) If the club has an appropriate ISV and the comp has been set up properly, the player will be able to see their PH on their phone app or home PC.


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## nickjdavis (Aug 17, 2020)

rulefan said:



			1) Boards are the basic facility. And realistically can only give Course Handicap.
.
		
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But as I've previously demonstrated, using the boards may result in you having a higher playing handicap than you are entitled to.

Rule 6.1b says that the fully calculated Course Handicap is used without rounding all the way through to the Playing Handicap Calculation

A 5.1 index player on a course with slope 124 will have a decimal Course Handicap of 5.59646 which if he was playing in a singles strokeplay comp off 95% would result in a Playing ~Handicap of 5.3166 which would be rounded down to 5

The same player using the Course Handicap Tables to look up his Course Handicap will see that his Course Handicap is shown as 6. 95% of 6 is 5.7....so this would be rounded to 6.

Two players...same index....different playing handicaps depending on which method they use to determine their course handicap.


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## woofers (Aug 17, 2020)

For any round to count toward your handicap record, I think the idea is that players register on a computer system before the round, and this will provide the playing handicap. 
Turning up at the 1st tee, with a blank scorecard and filling it in just before you tee off is not what is envisaged.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 17, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			In the main you will not have to worry about in anyway.

If you play in a qualifying Comp all you have to do is to remember is check the computer or the CDH data base before playing again to see what what your Handicap  Index is on the day of play next time you play. *If it a rubbish round nothing is likely to have changed.*

The Course Handicap is simply looked up on a chart, which will be displayed at the club

The only calculation you will have to do for yourself is to work out your Playing Handicap and if you only ever play singles comps it (probably) will be 95% of your your course handicap for all competitions.
		
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The bit in bold is not true. If, before your round, your oldest round (20th) was in your top 8, then if you go out and shoot a rubbish round then you lose that good round, handicap will go up. It could go up quite a lot if the round you lose was an extremely good round, and the one replacing it (your 8th best which was previously outside your best 8) was a lot worse.


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## IanM (Aug 17, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			But as I've previously demonstrated, u*sing the boards may result in you having a higher playing handicap* than you are entitled to.

Rule 6.1b says that the fully calculated Course Handicap is used without rounding all the way through to the Playing Handicap Calculation

A 5.1 index player on a course with slope 124 will have a decimal Course Handicap of 5.59646 which if he was playing in a singles strokeplay comp off 95% would result in a Playing ~Handicap of 5.3166 which would be rounded down to 5

The same player using the Course Handicap Tables to look up his Course Handicap will see that his Course Handicap is shown as 6. 95% of 6 is 5.7....so this would be rounded to 6.

Two players...same index....different playing handicaps depending on which method they use to determine their course handicap.
		
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...heck, just when you think you have got it  

Everything we've said on here said, you have your Handicap Index, look at the table to get your allowance and go and play.  What would lead someone to calculate their allowance to 5 decimal places rather than using the tables?


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## Swango1980 (Aug 17, 2020)

Just after lockdown, I decided to submit supplementary cards whenever I could. I shot 2 really good rounds (for me) early on of level par and 1 over, and got my handicap down to 5.8 (my handicap index would have been a bit lower than this).

A few months later, and hitting a poor run of form, my handicap is now 8.4. My Index however, is almost 10 and it would give me a course handicap of 12 at my place off whites. I can see some people liking the prospect of knowing they could get 6 extra shots within a few months, and I bet it would be easier for higher handicappers to achieve as they are likely to be even more inconsistent.


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## Ethan (Aug 17, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Just after lockdown, I decided to submit supplementary cards whenever I could. I shot 2 really good rounds (for me) early on of level par and 1 over, and got my handicap down to 5.8 (my handicap index would have been a bit lower than this).

A few months later, and hitting a poor run of form, my handicap is now 8.4. My Index however, is almost 10 and it would give me a course handicap of 12 at my place off whites. I can see some people liking the prospect of knowing they could get 6 extra shots within a few months, and I bet it would be easier for higher handicappers to achieve as they are likely to be even more inconsistent.
		
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Your current handicap has a longer memory than the WHS one. The 5.8 still anchored the handicap, even though you added a bunch of 0.1s on top. WHS has a much shorter memory, so the bunch of poor rounds defines your handicap index.

In my case my current 8 scores are in the range 78-88, handicap 10. But the best 4 scores came in my last 7 rounds, so they have a long way to go at my rate of play (once a week between April and October) before expiring. The worst 4 of the 8 all expire before any of the best 4, so I have a chance to put some decent scores on the board and reduce the index.

But if that was the other way round, with several good scores due to expire soon, a rise in handicap, maybe a short one, would be likely.

Once WHS is in place and people understand their scores and handicap, they will sometimes arrive at a situation where they know that after their next round, one of their best scores will expire, and that if they don't replace it with something decent, their handicap will rise. If you, as a 8, had one of those level par rounds as your 20th best, and you go out and have a 8 over par round, ostensibly playing to handicap, your index will rise a full shot (8 shot differential divided by 8). So you are going out knowing that every shot you score about par increases your handicap by 1/8 of a shot. That is a new way of thinking. Previously, so long as you made buffer zone, handicap would stay. That is no longer the appropriate thinking.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 17, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Your current handicap has a longer memory than the WHS one. The 5.8 still anchored the handicap, even though you added a bunch of 0.1s on top. WHS has a much shorter memory, so the bunch of poor rounds defines your handicap index.

In my case my current 8 scores are in the range 78-88, handicap 10. But the best 4 scores came in my last 7 rounds, so they have a long way to go at my rate of play (once a week between April and October) before expiring. The worst 4 of the 8 all expire before any of the best 4, so I have a chance to put some decent scores on the board and reduce the index.

But if that was the other way round, with several good scores due to expire soon, a rise in handicap, maybe a short one, would be likely.

Once WHS is in place and people understand their scores and handicap, they will sometimes arrive at a situation where they know that after their next round, one of their best scores will expire, and that if they don't replace it with something decent, their handicap will rise. If you, as a 8, had one of those level par rounds as your 20th best, and you go out and have a 8 over par round, ostensibly playing to handicap, your index will rise a full shot (8 shot differential divided by 8). So you are going out knowing that every shot you score about par increases your handicap by 1/8 of a shot. That is a new way of thinking. Previously, so long as you made buffer zone, handicap would stay. That is no longer the appropriate thinking.
		
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Indeed, that is my slight concern.

A big board competition coming up in a few weeks. A player knows that their, say, 20th, 19th, 17th oldest rounds all feature in their top 8, maybe a couple of them extremely good rounds. They'd be aware that, if they submit 4 rounds before the big board comp, of fairly poor quality, they could get a serious increase to their handicap Index (maximum of +5, which could be +6/7 to course handicap at a high slope course). In fact, if it was a 2 round competition, like Nett Club Champs, they could effectively manipulate their handicap to get 10-14 extra shots for the 2 rounds.

I guess that is just what we'll have to live with. Although, it'll be interesting to hear the opinion of those who get angry when they think a player has put in a bad round just to get 0.1 back under the current system.


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## Ethan (Aug 17, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Indeed, that is my slight concern.

A big board competition coming up in a few weeks. A player knows that their, say, 20th, 19th, 17th oldest rounds all feature in their top 8, maybe a couple of them extremely good rounds. They'd be aware that, if they submit 4 rounds before the big board comp, of fairly poor quality, they could get a serious increase to their handicap Index (maximum of +5, which could be +6/7 to course handicap at a high slope course). In fact, if it was a 2 round competition, like Nett Club Champs, they could effectively manipulate their handicap to get 10-14 extra shots for the 2 rounds.

I guess that is just what we'll have to live with. Although, it'll be interesting to hear the opinion of those who get angry when they think a player has put in a bad round just to get 0.1 back under the current system.
		
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It does offer that opportunity. At the AT&T Pebble Beach Pro-Am where CEOs and TV stars take part, you sometimes hear stories about people who were a 2 handicap the previous summer and now a 7 handicap for the Pro-Am. The current system does allow people to play badly and get 0.1, but the rate of rise of the handicap is slower than under WHS.


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## nickjdavis (Aug 17, 2020)

IanM said:



			...heck, just when you think you have got it  

Everything we've said on here said, you have your Handicap Index, look at the table to get your allowance and go and play.  *What would lead someone to calculate their allowance to 5 decimal places rather than using the tables*?
		
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A person wouldn't do it no. But the player entry terminals that a player might use to register his round will do exactly that as would any alleged mobile application that may or may not be developed. So you have an immediate potential difference between someone using technology and someone using the course handicap tables.

It is farcical to have a system where two equally valid processes deliver different results.


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## IanG (Aug 17, 2020)

My guess is that for pragmatic reasons the final algorithm will be to round twice, once to get an integer course handicap (which can be read from the chart) and then round again after multiplying the (integer) Course Handicap by the appropriate competition allowance. Computer systems can be coded to do this too. This is only my guess though!

We sort of do this now when playing 4BBB off the low-man. Round your exact handicap, subtract the low-man's handicap, Multiply by 90% and round again.


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## IanM (Aug 17, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			It is farcical to have a system where two equally valid processes deliver different results.
		
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## nickjdavis (Aug 17, 2020)

woofers said:



			For any round to count toward your handicap record, I think the idea is that players register on a computer system before the round, and this will provide the playing handicap.
*Turning up at the 1st tee, with a blank scorecard and filling it in just before you tee off is not what is envisaged*.
		
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But it will happen...clubs cannot force a player to use a terminal....especially in these Covid ridden times....hell the ruling bodies tell us we cant use rakes or touch flagsticks due to the possible transmission of Covid...how on Earth are they going to get round telling players to use a touchscreen terminal to register for their round 30 seconds after someone else has used the same terminal. Is someone going to be employed to stand by the terminal all day with a disinfectant spray and clean the terminal after every single person uses it?


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## Swango1980 (Aug 17, 2020)

When I went to the Workshop at Woodhall Spa, held by England Golf themselves, one


nickjdavis said:



			But it will happen...clubs cannot force a player to use a terminal....especially in these Covid ridden times....hell the ruling bodies tell us we cant use rakes or touch flagsticks due to the possible transmission of Covid...how on Earth are they going to get round telling players to use a touchscreen terminal to register for their round 30 seconds after someone else has used the same terminal. Is someone going to be employed to stand by the terminal all day with a disinfectant spray and clean the terminal after every single person uses it?
		
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Maybe all golfers will be ordered to invest in a smartphone, if they don't have one, and use the App. Although, if they struggle to get an internet connection at their club, will they struggle to log in and check their handicap details before their round? 

It's all "let's just wait and see". I think most people are aware of what their handicap is under the current system, can see themselves gradually creeping up towards another shot, and check what the reduction is after a good round. Under WHS, players will probably just have to get used to being as enthusiastic in checking for any handicap changes after any round, regardless of performance, as their handicap could change more than they anticipate. So, by the time they next play a round they have an idea on what their Index is if the technology fails them for whatever reason. Although, they'd probably want to remember than Index to a decimal point, rather than a whole number, to get the correct Course handicap from the chart.


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## nickjdavis (Aug 17, 2020)

I dont think knowing the handicap index is going to be an issue...if my understanding is right there will be a dedicated WHS website for all golfers and clubs where players can look at their entire handicap history and see at any point in time what their handicap index is....and they will need this sort of resource because, unlike the current system where it is pretty much easy to understand if you've played outside buffer getting a 0.1 increase or under CSS getting a reduction, the WHS is a lot more complicated and unless players keep a historical record of their last 20 rounds it will not be obvious if their latest score will have any effect on their handicap or not.


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## rksquire (Aug 17, 2020)

As an experiment I did the WHS calc for myself and one of our 4 ball - mine stayed the same, but my partners went 6 shots higher - given his form over the past few months (highest score of 32 points in the last 20 returns) this wasn't a surprise and the new system I think will benefit him.  We're sure he's due a review given the return of results but maybe committees are waiting for the new system to come in?


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## rulefan (Aug 17, 2020)

IanG said:



			My guess is that for pragmatic reasons the final algorithm will be to round twice, once to get an integer course handicap (which can be read from the chart) and then round again after multiplying the (integer) Course Handicap by the appropriate competition allowance. Computer systems can be coded to do this too. This is only my guess though!

We sort of do this now when playing 4BBB off the low-man. Round your exact handicap, subtract the low-man's handicap, Multiply by 90% and round again.
		
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I can confirm that to get the Playing Handicap, the Course Handicap will be rounded first (ie the integer value will be used).

In 4BBB you first calculate each player's PH and round. Then play from the difference from the lowest handicap.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 17, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			But it will happen...clubs cannot force a player to use a terminal....especially in these Covid ridden times....hell the ruling bodies tell us we cant use rakes or touch flagsticks due to the possible transmission of Covid...how on Earth are they going to get round telling players to use a touchscreen terminal to register for their round 30 seconds after someone else has used the same terminal. Is someone going to be employed to stand by the terminal all day with a disinfectant spray and clean the terminal after every single person uses it?
		
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At my place you have to enter via the touchscreen computer, enter your scores via the computer. We do not even hand cards in right now, they are simply discarded. There is a pack of wipes by the touchscreen to wipe down after you have used it. There is a hand spray nearby to use as well. If the previous person does not wipe the screen it shouldn't matter anyway if you then wash your hands using the spray. If you don't do any of that then you aren't really following the advice so the club can't help you there. It really is very easy.


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## nickjdavis (Aug 17, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I can confirm that to get the Playing Handicap, the Course Handicap will be rounded first (ie the integer value will be used).
		
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But (unless I am interpreting 6.1b wrongly) this is at odds with what rule 6.1b says... (don't get me wrong....I really want what you say to be correct!!!!)....


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## Grant85 (Aug 17, 2020)

My club is using cards signed by the marker only, but also asking everyone to input scores onto HDID via their own phone or computer. Obviously all cards have to be manually entered onto the computer by committee, which I'm sure is not a quick job. So entering your own score saves a bit of time, but has not yet been made compulsory. 

I personally think this will do away with the terminal, or at least give people the option of entering the score on their own device post Covid. 

Also feel with a bit of willing, we could do away with scorecards and just use electronic entry. Clearly people may choose to keep their score on a card, but if the rules were changed to allow cards to not be compulsory - there would be a huge cumulative saving over millions of rounds of golf played each year.


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## nickjdavis (Aug 17, 2020)

Lord Tyrion said:



			At my place you have to enter via the touchscreen computer, enter your scores via the computer. We do not even hand cards in right now, they are simply discarded. There is a pack of wipes by the touchscreen to wipe down after you have used it. There is a hand spray nearby to use as well. If the previous person does not wipe the screen it shouldn't matter anyway if you then wash your hands using the spray. If you don't do any of that then you aren't really following the advice so the club can't help you there. It really is very easy.
		
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That makes sense. Would be concerned about discarding cards mind...no way of checking on anomalies....when we first experimented with allowing players to enter their own scores we had loads of issues...players entered their stableford points as their score and went home...without the scorecards to cross reference we'd have never figured out what they had done wrong!! They didnt even notice their scores were coming out at 90 points plus!!! Were currently doing some more trials getting players to enter scores via Masterscoreboard via their own mobile device...but we will still want the cards as a cross reference!!


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 17, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			That makes sense. Would be concerned about discarding cards mind...no way of checking on anomalies....when we first experimented with allowing players to enter their own scores we had loads of issues...players entered their stableford points as their score and went home...without the scorecards to cross reference we'd have never figured out what they had done wrong!! They didnt even notice their scores were coming out at 90 points plus!!! Were currently doing some more trials getting players to enter scores via Masterscoreboard via their own mobile device...but we will still want the cards as a cross reference!!
		
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We have had to use the computer to enter comps, enter your score, anyway prior to all of this so perhaps the glaring errors were made in the past and we are beyond that now. We may be the rugby VAR compared to your PL VAR , we are just further down the line and so used to it.

I am quite enjoying the freedom of not getting stressed about calculating stableford scores correctly on the card. I just enter the shots per hole and let the computer do the work.

Apparently our seniors are currently trialling entering your final card via phone after your round, hopefully that will be extended. That will remove a transmission point if succesful. It will also avoid the painful queue to enter scores on our 1980's Amstrad machine (it is what speed it runs at )

I know that our manager wants to go back to checking cards again when this is all over, the discarding of cards will not be permanent.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 17, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			My club is using cards signed by the marker only, but also asking everyone to input scores onto HDID via their own phone or computer. Obviously all cards have to be manually entered onto the computer by committee, which I'm sure is not a quick job. So entering your own score saves a bit of time, but has not yet been made compulsory.

I personally think this will do away with the terminal, or at least give people the option of entering the score on their own device post Covid.

Also feel with a bit of willing, we could do away with scorecards and just use electronic entry. Clearly people may choose to keep their score on a card, but if the rules were changed to allow cards to not be compulsory - there would be a huge cumulative saving over millions of rounds of golf played each year.
		
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I like the HDID score entry. However, it was better initially when the default score on each hole was zero, and you had to then change it to the correct score. For some reason, the default on each hole is now Par. When going from one hole to the next, it is so easy to flick through a hole score, forgetting to change the default from par and moving on. Sadly, not everyone is careful in checking their final score, and even if it doesn't tie up with what they thought, they just assume the computer is correct. So, I wonder how many will have at least one par score on their entry that should have been bogey or worse, and never realise. It is not like the marker can check they have done it correctly, unless they happen to look at the final results, remember their fellow competitors score and raise it with committee.

Physical scorecards, at the least, allow the competition secretary to check the leading scores against what players have entered on HDID (Players need to send a photo of their card after entry). Otherwise, I'd imagine checking would be next to impossible, and you'd have to trust players were able to enter their scores into the system correctly 100% of the time.


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## rulefan (Aug 17, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			But (unless I am interpreting 6.1b wrongly) this is at odds with what rule 6.1b says... (don't get me wrong....I really want what you say to be correct!!!!)....
		
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My information is straight from the top. It will be published shortly I am told.


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## nickjdavis (Aug 17, 2020)

rulefan said:



			My information is straight from the top. It will be published shortly I am told.
		
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Good....maybe they need to publish version 2 of the rulebook before November 2nd!!!!


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## IanMcC (Aug 17, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			But (unless I am interpreting 6.1b wrongly) this is at odds with what rule 6.1b says... (don't get me wrong....I really want what you say to be correct!!!!)....

View attachment 32067

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Can I ask, is this taken from the UK&I version of the Rules Of Handicapping Manual? If so, where do you download a copy? I thought it would come with the WHS toolkit, but sadly it didnt. I only have the draft version of the USGA version, which will obviously have some differences. Is it because my club comes under Wales Golf, rather than England Golf, that we dont have either a hard or downloadable copy yet?


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## jim8flog (Aug 17, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			The bit in bold is not true. If, before your round, your oldest round (20th) was in your top 8, then if you go out and shoot a rubbish round then you lose that good round, handicap will go up. It could go up quite a lot if the round you lose was an extremely good round, and the one replacing it (your 8th best which was previously outside your best 8) was a lot worse.
		
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Probably should have said *nothing majo*r would have changed.

Having kept track of my own for a few months now I have lost a couple of good scores but the *really bad* ones that came in as part of the 20 have not affected/ formed part of the 8. I lost an 7 and an 8 replaced by a 11 and 12 which means a change of just one stroke to H.I.


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## nickjdavis (Aug 17, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Can I ask, is this taken from the UK&I version of the Rules Of Handicapping Manual? If so, where do you download a copy? I thought it would come with the WHS toolkit, but sadly it didnt. I only have the draft version of the USGA version, which will obviously have some differences. Is it because my club comes under Wales Golf, rather than England Golf, that we dont have either a hard or downloadable copy yet?
		
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Yes it is.... https://www.englandgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/England-Golf-Rules-of-Handicapping.pdf


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## jim8flog (Aug 17, 2020)

woofers said:



			For any round to count toward your handicap record, I think the idea is that players register on a computer system before the round, and this will provide the playing handicap.
.
		
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Sounds very good in theory but where I play players are going out to play before the facilities are open.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 17, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Yes it is.... https://www.englandgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/England-Golf-Rules-of-Handicapping.pdf

Click to expand...

I assume this is just a general document for the world, and England Golf will submit one for their own interpretations of it?

One thing I couldn't find (albeit maybe I just missed it) was submitting Supplementary Scores (or whatever they'll be called under WHS), and that they must be pre-registered. I was looking for that particular subject, as I was interested to find out if the Manual would say these scores must be deleted if the Player didn't pre-register.


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## rulefan (Aug 17, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Can I ask, is this taken from the UK&I version of the Rules Of Handicapping Manual? If so, where do you download a copy? I thought it would come with the WHS toolkit, but sadly it didnt. I only have the draft version of the USGA version, which will obviously have some differences. Is it because my club comes under Wales Golf, rather than England Golf, that we dont have either a hard or downloadable copy yet?
		
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This version was distributed by England Golf so Welsh clubs will not have been on that distribution list. There is no mention of England Golf in the document itself so I assume it is for all CONGU authorities (ie GB&I). I don't know what other CONGU licensees (eg Kenya) will be doing.


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## rulefan (Aug 17, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Good....maybe they need to publish version 2 of the rulebook before November 2nd!!!! 

Click to expand...

That is almost certain.


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## rulefan (Aug 17, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Sounds very good in theory but where I play players are going out to play before the facilities are open.
		
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They will be able to do it on a phone app.


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## rulefan (Aug 17, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I assume this is just a general document for the world, and England Golf will submit one for their own interpretations of it?

One thing I couldn't find (albeit maybe I just missed it) was submitting Supplementary Scores (or whatever they'll be called under WHS), and that they must be pre-registered. I was looking for that particular subject, as I was interested to find out if the Manual would say these scores must be deleted if the Player didn't pre-register.
		
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See Rule *2.1a(iii) Registering Intent to Submit a Score in General Play*
and 
Rule *2.1 Acceptability of Scores*


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## jim8flog (Aug 17, 2020)

rulefan said:



			They will be able to do it on a phone app.
		
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 ho ho ho

The majority of the early starters in a seniors comp probably do not have a smart phone let alone the APP.
We already know there are some that do not own a home computer of any sort with complaints about booking into get a tee time.
 Last weekend comp only 30 members out of over 100 entered their scores via the app.


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## rulefan (Aug 17, 2020)

too true


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## IanM (Aug 17, 2020)

I think the variety of comment demonstrates that the current state of understanding, quality of materials and the comms mechanisms used are way short of the requirement.


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## nickjdavis (Aug 18, 2020)

rulefan said:



			My information is straight from the top. It will be published shortly I am told.
		
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I also now have this information from the very top.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 18, 2020)

Having read all this lot, and thinking how often computers go down, I think some poor officials are going to have some frustrating times ahead of them. 
Why they couldn't have left the system alone, I don't know. 
It really is just a pastime for most.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 18, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Having read all this lot, and thinking how often computers go down, I think some poor officials are going to have some frustrating times ahead of them.
Why they couldn't have left the system alone, I don't know.
It really is just a pastime for most.
		
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It's a bit better for people that like to play golf in different countries competitively.


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## Ethan (Aug 18, 2020)

When it is up and running, it will be helpful to be aware which of your scores is about to expire and what will replace them. If the score about to expire is one of the 20 but not one of the 8, your handicap will not change unless you improve the 8 best scores. If it is one of the 8, you will know that if it is one of the better scores near the top of the list, or one of the bottom scores, and roughly what you need to do to keep your handicap unchanged or to improve it. 

So say I know that my best 8 scores are 77-88, handicap 10. My 9th best score is a 90. 

If the score about to expire is outside the 8, then I know that scoring something better than an 88 improves my handicap proportionally. A 70-something really improves it, a 87, fractionally. The 90 won't be coming in today. 

If the score about to expire is the 77, within the 8, then I need another 77 to keep the handicap the same. Anything worse will cause a proportional increase. If I know that the 9th best score is a 90, then if I don't beat that score, that 90 jumps into the top 8, and the handicap rises by over 1.5 (13/8). 

On the other hand, if the score about to expire is the 88, within the 8, then worst case it will be replaced by a 90. Anything better than the 88 improves the handicap, and really good score improves it a lot.


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## 2blue (Aug 18, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Having read all this lot, and thinking how often computers go down, I think some poor officials are going to have some frustrating times ahead of them.
Why they couldn't have left the system alone, I don't know.
It really is just a pastime for most.
		
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I see it as a move toward fairness.
Off the Whites (slope 124) at my Club there is only 1 hole which I can't reach in regulation. However, with the same H/cap, I play matches against players who have earned their H/cap on a course  (Slope 142) where I can't reach on at least 3 or 4 of their holes.


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## 3offTheTee (Aug 18, 2020)

Will there still be Inactive handicaps? Thinking about some Opens that require a competitive handicap at present


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## rulefan (Aug 18, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Will there still be Inactive handicaps? Thinking about some Opens that require a competitive handicap at present
		
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No. Nor will there be Categories.
However organising committees will be able to specify a minimum number of round played within a particular time frame.


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## jim8flog (Aug 18, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Having read all this lot, and thinking how often computers go down, I think some poor officials are going to have some frustrating times ahead of them.
Why they couldn't have left the system alone, I don't know.
It really is just a pastime for most.
		
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You should have seen the looks I got from the presenters at the workshop when asked " what happens when the computers go down".

I know there several a times year when our PSI screen locks up on a Saturday afternoonwith no office staff to fix it until Monday morning


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## jim8flog (Aug 18, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Will there still be Inactive handicaps? Thinking about some Opens that require a competitive handicap at present
		
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There have not been inactive handicaps for years. If you mean competition status. It disappears with the WHS.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 18, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			You should have seen the looks I got from the presenters at the workshop when asked " what happens when the computers go down".

I know there several a times year when our PSI screen locks up on a Saturday afternoonwith no office staff to fix it until Monday morning
		
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At our presentation, when asked about computers going down, we were told not to worry about it.


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Aug 18, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			Having read all this lot, and thinking how often computers go down, I think some poor officials are going to have some frustrating times ahead of them.
Why they couldn't have left the system alone, I don't know.
It really is just a pastime for most.
		
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Agreed totally. So far, I think it is Swango who has given me the only positive....viz "it 's better when playing in foreign countries".....or words to that effect.
How on earth we can attract youngsters and other new golfers into this wonderful game, with this new system beats me. Admittedly younger players will all have the computer technology, but otherwise, and this thread is now 34 pages long...........and I am only a little wiser......and certainly not sold on the system in any shape, way, or form.
Rulefan, I take my hat off to you, as you seem to have ALL the answers.
As Swinglowandslow says, it's just a pastime for most golfers. Handicapping was always a contentious subject for some, and others just got on with it.
Now it looks as though you won't even know what you're playing off until you get to the course. It will be as though the main subject on arrival will be : "what are you playing off?"
Nightmare!


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## rulefan (Aug 18, 2020)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			Now it looks as though you won't even know what you're playing off until you get to the course. It will be as though the main subject on arrival will be : "what are you playing off?"
Nightmare!
		
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How often do you play courses other than your own? 
If you go and play Carnoustie for a change won't it be nice to have a few extra shots in your bag?


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Aug 18, 2020)

rulefan said:



			How often do you play courses other than your own?
If you go and play Carnoustie for a change won't it be nice to have a few extra shots in your bag?
		
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Playing Monifieth, Carnoustie Burnside, Montrose, Edzell, and Pumpherston next month.
Clitheroe, Fixby, Moortown, and Ilkley, over the next few weeks. I would call that a fair selection of courses. But surely, it's irrelevant that I get extra shots, as I'm playing against my friends who have a handicap that I acknowledge as being accurate. In addition, I like to TRY and score 36 points (or more) on any course that I play, and measure my performance that way, plus my score in comparison to my friends. I'm off 12, and if I got 36 points off (say) 16, I would call that 32.
I reckon there's a lot of golfers out there who will think the same way.


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 18, 2020)

[QUOTE="Yorkshire Hacker, post: 2218778, Now it looks as though you won't even know what you're playing off until you get to the course. It will be as though the main subject on arrival will be : "what are you playing off?"
Nightmare![/QUOTE]
Where on earth do you get that idea,  you will access to your current handicap 24/7 via your  clubs ISP App or via your browser at home.  Also changes to your handicap will not be dependant on your club closing the previous days competition on time.  Provided your score has been inputed to your clubs ISP then handicap changes will automatically be processed overnight and available on the App first thing in the morning.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 18, 2020)

rulefan said:



			How often do you play courses other than your own?
If you go and play Carnoustie for a change won't it be nice to have a few extra shots in your bag?
		
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Realistically, many golfers won't get a few extra shots at Carnoustie. Maybe a very high handicapper will, with the slope 140+. But, with many golfers already playing at courses with a slope of 130-140, they may not have any extra shots at all. Even if the Course Rating at Carnoustie is much higher relative to par compared to their own course.


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## jim8flog (Aug 18, 2020)

I used to play away a lot.

I would often came away thinking I would be x handicap if I was a member here or y handicap if I played there sometimes up sometimes down. 

On a lot of those courses playing matches against their home team and it is nice to think there will be a little bit of handicap equalisation now.

Playing Opens it becomes a slightly more level paying field.


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## jim8flog (Aug 18, 2020)

rksquire said:



			As an experiment I did the WHS calc for myself and one of our 4 ball - mine stayed the same, but my partners went 6 shots higher - given his form over the past few months (highest score of 32 points in the last 20 returns) this wasn't a surprise and the new system I think will benefit him.  We're sure he's due a review given the return of results but maybe committees are waiting for the new system to come in?
		
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 Your mate should have been reviewed late last year or early this year as were told to ensure handicap reviews were completed as normal. However if that 32 was in his buffer zone or close to it would highly unlikely that he would have got an increase.

One of the things I like about the new system is that if you put enough cards in you will get a handicap which reflects your current form, whereas with the current system it takes 10 rounds to go up one shot if you are under handicapped.


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## jim8flog (Aug 18, 2020)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			Agreed totally. So far, I think it is Swango who has given me the only positive....viz "it 's better when playing in foreign countries".....or words to that effect.
How on earth we can attract youngsters and other new golfers into this wonderful game, with this new system beats me. Admittedly younger players will all have the computer technology, but otherwise, and this thread is now 34 pages long...........and I am only a little wiser......and certainly not sold on the system in any shape, way, or form.
Rulefan, I take my hat off to you, as you seem to have ALL the answers.
As Swinglowandslow says, it's just a pastime for most golfers. Handicapping was always a contentious subject for some, and others just got on with it.
Now it looks as though you won't even know what you're playing off until you get to the course. It will be as though the main subject on arrival will be : "what are you playing off?"
Nightmare!
		
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  New players coming in to the game after November will not know any other system and the new system is a lot easier to understand to the new player than the current system. Just look at how many current players still do not under SSS, CSS and buffer zones and think 36 points is playing to handicap on all courses.

When you get a new course their is always some admin to do such as reading the Local Rules before going out so it is not a lot extra to have to do.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 19, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			New players coming in to the game after November will not know any other system and the new system is a lot easier to understand to the new player than the current system. Just look at how many current players still do not under SSS, CSS and buffer zones and think 36 points is playing to handicap on all courses.

When you get a new course their is always some admin to do such as reading the Local Rules before going out so it is not a lot extra to have to do.
		
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Yes, but under WHS they will still incorrectly think 36 points is playing to handicap, and Course Rating will be over their heads. They'll have no idea about PCC and they'll get confused as hell when they go out, shoot a great score, and their handicap actually goes up or stays the same, not down, because they cancelled out an even better score 21 rounds ago. They'll go to a much trickier course and wonder why they don't get extra shots on their handicap, and someone would need to explain that although it is trickier, it is not relatively more tricky for the high handicapper compared to low. Each time they play, and especially at new course, they'll need to know their Index (fine), then convert that into a Course Handicap (using chart or app), then following this, understand the % adjustment based on format they are playing and apply that. Perhaps computer will do all this for them in a comp, but if they are playing social golf I guess the Playing Handicap calculation needs to be done by the player. 

Under current system, yes, there are things players don't understand. But, after a round it is simple for most to know why their handicap went up, down or stayed the same. Or easy to explain the exact calculation to them. And, at they very least, the Player just needs to remember 1 handicap, and that is what they play off regardless of course or format of play. I'd say that is much easier, especially for the casual golfer. 

I'm not saying WHS is 100% a bad thing, in that is does account for the relative difficulty of courses. But, I do think it is a lot more complex for the casual golfer to process, and also easier for a player to manipulate their handicap upwards. I'm intrigued on how these discussions will go on this forum this time next year.


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## rulefan (Aug 19, 2020)

Of course the majority of handicap golfers around the world already play to what is essentially this system. CONGU is the only major system not using slope (and that due to the intransigence of the old EGU). Averaging dominates the RoW. We can't really be any dumber than them can we?
Incidentally, we seem to be able to handle 4BBB and 4some handicap adjustments ok.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 19, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Of course the majority of handicap golfers around the world already play to what is essentially this system. CONGU is the only major system not using slope (and that due to the intransigence of the old EGU). Averaging dominates the RoW. We can't really be any dumber than them can we?
Incidentally, we seem to be able to handle 4BBB and 4some handicap adjustments ok.
		
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No one said we will be unable to cope. Just that it is more complicated than current system.


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## Swinglowandslow (Aug 19, 2020)

rulefan said:



			How often do you play courses other than your own?
If you go and play Carnoustie for a change won't it be nice to have a few extra shots in your bag?
		
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True for those playing competitions at other courses. and, yes, it would be nice, but, when I go to play another course, lovely summer day etc, why do I have to faff about finding the computer to log into to put in my H I to find my playing handicap etc?
Or, do I have to do this, or can my mate and I just amble to the first tee and off we go?
As I say, competition , fair enough, but unless I've understood this wrong ( likely😀) am I not supposed to record all my rounds of golf when this system comes in?


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## Ethan (Aug 19, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			New players coming in to the game after November will not know any other system and the new system is a lot easier to understand to the new player than the current system. Just look at how many current players still do not under SSS, CSS and buffer zones and think 36 points is playing to handicap on all courses.

When you get a new course their is always some admin to do such as reading the Local Rules before going out so it is not a lot extra to have to do.
		
Click to expand...

If Americans can understand the handicapping system, so can intelligent humans.


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## Pathetic Shark (Aug 19, 2020)

Ethan said:



			If Americans can understand the handicapping system, so can intelligent humans. 

Click to expand...

So will people who accept the result of a democratic referendum


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## Ethan (Aug 19, 2020)

Pathetic Shark said:



			So will people who accept the result of a democratic referendum   

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Intelligent humans understood that the referendum was advisory and the result was to be considered by Parliament rather than just enacted without any regard for the consequences.


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## Lord Tyrion (Aug 19, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			True for those playing competitions at other courses. and, yes, it would be nice, but, when I go to play another course, lovely summer day etc, why do I have to faff about finding the computer to log into to put in my H I to find my playing handicap etc?
Or, do I have to do this, or can my mate and I just amble to the first tee and off we go?
As I say, competition , fair enough, but unless I've understood this wrong ( likely😀) *am I not supposed to record all my rounds of golf when this system comes in?*

Click to expand...

I don't think this is the case. I believe it was originally suggested but it was reigned back to be similar to the situation now. You can record them but you don't have to.

If you are just playing with a friend in a social round at a different club then just rock up, use your home club handicap and don't worry about faffing with charts and the like. It is what 99% of us will do, for the first 6 months or so anyway until we get used to this.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 19, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			True for those playing competitions at other courses. and, yes, it would be nice, but, when I go to play another course, lovely summer day etc, why do I have to faff about finding the computer to log into to put in my H I to find my playing handicap etc?
Or, do I have to do this, or can my mate and I just amble to the first tee and off we go?
As I say, competition , fair enough, but unless I've understood this wrong ( likely😀) *am I not supposed to record all my rounds of golf when this system comes in?*

Click to expand...

Nope, that is one of the misconceptions, as that is what the Americans seemed to have done for years.

Social golf is social golf. If you wish, you MAY submit a social round of golf in the same way you can do now, effectively as a supplementary score. Otherwise, you are free to play without bothering about officially submitting score afterwards


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## jim8flog (Aug 19, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			True for those playing competitions at other courses. and, yes, it would be nice, but, when I go to play another course, lovely summer day etc, why do I have to faff about finding the computer to log into to put in my H I to find my playing handicap etc?
Or, do I have to do this, or can my mate and I just amble to the first tee and off we go?
As I say, competition , fair enough, but unless I've understood this wrong ( likely😀) am I not supposed to record all my rounds of golf when this system comes in?
		
Click to expand...

 If you are just playing social golf who cares what you do? There is no need for all this faffing around.

Re your last question no you are not.  Only preregistered rounds have to be recorded (as per the Supplementary Score System now).


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## Swango1980 (Aug 19, 2020)

jim8flog said:



*If you are just playing social golf who cares what you do?* There is no need for all this faffing around.

Re your last question no you are not.  Only preregistered rounds have to be recorded (as per the Supplementary Score System now).
		
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Although it is a fair point to a degree, you will find that there are a lot of casual golfers who would still like to play off the correct handicap. For these golfers, then they will require this "faffing around"


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## nickjdavis (Aug 19, 2020)

You shouldn't have to pfaff around with finding a computer....most clubs should also publish the course handicap lookup tables in an easily accessible area....possibly close to the first tee.


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## Lilyhawk (Aug 19, 2020)

I cannot think of a single club in Sweden that didn’t have a handicap lookup table close to or on the first tee. I’d suggest the same thing will happen here in the UK as well. 

As for not understanding how to work the lookup table, I’d go out on a limb and say that those individuals don’t know how to tie their own shoe laces either.


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## rulefan (Aug 19, 2020)

Swinglowandslow said:



			1) can my mate and I just amble to the first tee and off we go?
2) am I not supposed to record all my rounds of golf when this system comes in?
		
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1) Yes
2) The is no such  requirement. But you may if you wish to and provided you declare your intention beforehand.


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## IanM (Aug 19, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			I cannot think of a single club in Sweden that didn’t have a handicap lookup table close to or on the first tee. I’d suggest the same thing will happen here in the UK as well.  As for not understanding how to work the lookup table, I’d go out on a limb and say that those individuals don’t know how to tie their own shoe laces either.
		
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Very reassuring - I am thinking that I can ignore all the waffle, find out my_ handicap_ from the computer, (I deliberately left out the word _"index_!!")  - use the look-up table (where ever it is hanging) and go and play golf as usual.  Heck, we might even go out and just play for fun sometimes and not keep score!   When it changes, I will smile and not worry about what or why.  

I suspect there will be a lengthy period after WHS implements when golfers meet and have the current _"what are you off?" _conversation, the reply will be _"I was off 12 before the current dopey system started, now I think I am about 14.767474673434434   But who knows for sure!  _


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## chrisd (Aug 19, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			I cannot think of a single club in Sweden that didn’t have a handicap lookup table close to or on the first tee. I’d suggest the same thing will happen here in the UK as well. 

As for not understanding how to work the lookup table, I’d go out on a limb and say that those individuals don’t know how to tie their own shoe laces either.
		
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I suspect that there'll be no slip on lookup table but those who struggle with laces are well catered for 😁😁


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## Lilyhawk (Aug 19, 2020)

IanM said:



			Very reassuring - I am thinking that I can ignore all the waffle, find out my_ handicap_ from the computer, (I deliberately left out the word _"index_!!")  - use the look-up table (where ever it is hanging) and go and play golf as usual.  Heck, we might even go out and just play for fun sometimes and not keep score!   When it changes, I will smile and not worry about what or why.

I suspect there will be a lengthy period after WHS implements when golfers meet and have the current _"what are you off?" _conversation, the reply will be _"I was off 12 before the current dopey system started, now I think I am about 14.767474673434434   But who knows for sure!  _

Click to expand...

Don’t get me wrong, there’s been one issue highlighted regarding same handicap indexes being given different playing handicaps, but I believe rulefan has confirmed that that is being “fixed”.

But apart from that, for us who are not in a handicap committee or any other administrative role at a golf club, this thread baffles me as these charts are simple enough for a 5 year old to read. 

Once it’s implemented and the charts are up, I’m sure there will be more than a few people asking themselves what all the fuzz, or should I say “faff” - was all about.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 19, 2020)

Traminator said:



			As above, everywhere I've played abroad that uses this system has the tables very clearly available either in the golf reception, pro shop and/or near the 1st tee, and of course on the club website.
It's very straightforward, just look at the number next to your HI for the relevant tees and that's what you play off.
		
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...as I found in Australia ad NZ last year.  No issues whatsoever.


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## IanM (Aug 19, 2020)

As per last two posts.... golfers know what OB posts mean....but most of them don't give a stuff about what rule number it is!!


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## jim8flog (Aug 19, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I'm sure it's been posted before but here's a simple chart that would be displayed, apologies I could only get up to about 15 handicap on the screen, but you will see 4 columns depending if you're playing off white, gold, blue or red tees.

So if your exact is 12.4, you play off 18 off whites, 16 off gold, 13 off blue and 11 off red.
Clearly it's quite a hard course off the white or gold tees.
	View attachment 32093

Click to expand...


 As per other discussions Playing Handicap means something different in CONGU regions ,  the idea will be the same but the charts will read Course Handicap.


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## jim8flog (Aug 19, 2020)

These are what you should expect to find on most courses  (eagle golf has struck a deal with England Golf)

https://www.eagle.uk.com/WHSinfo.html


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## abjectplop (Aug 21, 2020)

Is course rating the same as SSS? My club only lists the slope rating, can't find any mention of course rating.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 21, 2020)

abjectplop said:



			Is course rating the same as SSS? My club only lists the slope rating, can't find any mention of course rating.
		
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It is, although Course Rating is to 1 decimal point, unlike SSS


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## jim8flog (Aug 21, 2020)

abjectplop said:



			Is course rating the same as SSS? My club only lists the slope rating, can't find any mention of course rating.
		
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You will find the info here
https://ncrdb.usga.org/

At some point your club should display the official course ratings in the same way they display SSS ratings at present.


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## abjectplop (Aug 21, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			You will find the info here
https://ncrdb.usga.org/

At some point your club should display the official course ratings in the same way they display SSS ratings at present.
		
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I'd had a look on there but there's only 2 courses in the whole of my area....assuming Golf Scotland of Scottish courses are a bit slow on this.


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## jim8flog (Aug 21, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			But as I've previously demonstrated, using the boards may result in you having a higher playing handicap than you are entitled to.

Rule 6.1b says that the fully calculated Course Handicap is used without rounding all the way through to the Playing Handicap Calculation

A 5.1 index player on a course with slope 124 will have a decimal Course Handicap of 5.59646 which if he was playing in a singles strokeplay comp off 95% would result in a Playing ~Handicap of 5.3166 which would be rounded down to 5

The same player using the Course Handicap Tables to look up his Course Handicap will see that his Course Handicap is shown as 6. 95% of 6 is 5.7....so this would be rounded to 6.

Two players...same index....different playing handicaps depending on which method they use to determine their course handicap.
		
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 Funnily enough with some time to pass away this morning I spent the time 'doing the maths' on my own courses with my own handicap

On 3 of the courses/tees I would get an extra shot if I used rounding of the course handicap using the info on the boards rather than rounding at the end using a calculator.


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## jim8flog (Aug 21, 2020)

Kaz said:



			So.... we're getting on to the end of August. I know Scottish Golf have said they will be publishing people's expected WHS handicaps in advance of the change but does anyone know when we'll start to get sight of these?
		
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Do you not know how to work it out for yourself?


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## Wabinez (Aug 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Nope, it's not apparent what the algorithm for calculating it is. I've got a rough idea but that's comparing my scores vs CSS and I don't know if that's how they're doing it. Would be nice to get an "official" estimate.
		
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I used this a few weeks back. Filled out my last 20 competition rounds (can’t remember social, so just filled out details from comps) and let it calculate for me

https://www.calculator.net/golf-handicap-calculator.html


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## jim8flog (Aug 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Thanks for that.

Sadly most of the courses for my last 20 rounds don’t have course/slope ratings. Looks like indexes can’t be calculated until all the courses are rated?
		
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All of my records come from courses that do not have slope ratings. Even if they did they would not be shown in my handicap history that only comes in with the new system.

You can get a fairly good idea just using net differential from your handicap history. The calculation that England Golf will be simply based upon the same and I cannot see them bothering to go back and do the conversions just to come up with roughly the same answer.

When you read the WHS briefs they centre around the ongoing process once it has started and hence show slope ratings.


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## IainP (Aug 22, 2020)

I did mine the other day just using CSS and the average came out as 9.25, I'm currently 9.3 on current system. As my previous course closed it'll never be rated.


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## jim8flog (Aug 22, 2020)

Wabinez said:



			I used this a few weeks back. Filled out my last 20 competition rounds (can’t remember social, so just filled out details from comps) and let it calculate for me

https://www.calculator.net/golf-handicap-calculator.html

Click to expand...

 You would not use social rounds anyway unless they were registered as Supplementary Scores.


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## Wabinez (Aug 22, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Thanks for that.

Sadly most of the courses for my last 20 rounds don’t have course/slope ratings. Looks like indexes can’t be calculated until all the courses are rated?
		
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ah rubbish. I got all mine from the USGA database so was easy to fill out.

didnt like the answer it threw back at me though!!


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## Crow (Aug 22, 2020)

Wabinez said:



			I used this a few weeks back. Filled out my last 20 competition rounds (can’t remember social, so just filled out details from comps) and let it calculate for me

https://www.calculator.net/golf-handicap-calculator.html

Click to expand...

Just used this for my last 20 medal rounds at my home course and considering how awfully I've scored over the last couple of years (one cut and 4 buffers in the 20 rounds entered) I was surprised to see it give 14.8 as my handicap index, only 0.8 above my current handicap.


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## rulefan (Aug 22, 2020)

Wabinez said:



			I used this a few weeks back. Filled out my last 20 competition rounds (can’t remember social, so just filled out details from comps) and let it calculate for me

https://www.calculator.net/golf-handicap-calculator.html

Click to expand...

Note that the 'Course Handicap Calculator' does not work for CONGU as Par takes no part in the calculation here. It should be entered as the same as Course Rating.

See also the official USGA version

https://www.usga.org/course-handicap-calculator.html


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## rulefan (Aug 22, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			All of my records come from courses that do not have slope ratings. Even if they did they would not be shown in my handicap history that only comes in with the new system.

You can get a fairly good idea just using net differential from your handicap history. The calculation that England Golf will be simply based upon the same and I cannot see them bothering to go back and do the conversions just to come up with roughly the same answer.

When you read the WHS briefs they centre around the ongoing process once it has started and hence show slope ratings.
		
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The transition will use slope for rated courses and an 'average slope' for courses yet to be rated.


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## Fish (Aug 22, 2020)

I just used that calculator, when I put my index in, which I assume is my current handicap, then the slope, par etc, I get 4 extra shots!

However, I've just put 13 medal rounds in and it gives me a handicap of 3 shots less than my current handicap?


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 22, 2020)

Fish said:



			I just used that calculator, *when I put my index in, which I assume is my current handicap,* then the slope, par etc, I get 4 extra shots!

However, I've just put 13 medal rounds in and it gives me a handicap of 3 shots less than my current handicap?
		
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No,  you need to calculate your index first using the 13 rounds, then put that number to one decimal place in the top section, this will give you your course handicap


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## Fish (Aug 22, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			No,  you need to calculate your index first using the 13 rounds, then put that number to one decimal place in the top section, this will give you your course handicap
		
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Thanks for the clarification. 

I’ve now put the calculated index in over those 13 rounds, which is 2.2 shots lower than my actual handicap now, this gives me 1 extra shot on my home course to that of my current handicap and 4 shots greater than my index over those 13 rounds 🤪


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## jim8flog (Aug 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Note that the 'Course Handicap Calculator' does not work for CONGU as Par takes no part in the calculation here. It should be entered as the same as Course Rating.

See also the official USGA version

https://www.usga.org/course-handicap-calculator.html 

Click to expand...

 I also noticed that the calculator asks for the score for each round and most players will not know to adjust for hole scores worse than nett double bogey.


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## Fish (Aug 22, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I also noticed that the calculator asks for the score for each round and most players will not know to adjust for hole scores worse than nett double bogey.
		
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so are you saying if you scored say a 9 on a par 4 with a shot you’d still put 9 and not adjust it, or do as I have done, and adjust it to 7.


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## jim8flog (Aug 22, 2020)

Fish said:



			so are you saying if you scored say a 9 on a par 4 with a shot you’d still put 9 and not adjust it, or do as I have done, and adjust it to 7.
		
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Yes that is right. You would still put 9 on the card in a medal as the software adjusts the score for handicap purposes.

 It depends on your handicap and how many strokes you would receive on the hole in Stableford terms

So on a par  4 where you received one shot nett double bogey = 7 gross. ie 7 -1 =6 = 0 points so *any* score above 7 gets rounded down to 7
if you received two shots it would be 8 gross 8 - 2=6= 0 points.


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## rulefan (Aug 22, 2020)

Fish said:



			I just used that calculator, when I put my index in, which I assume is my current handicap, then the slope, par etc, I get 4 extra shots!
		
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Is the par the same as the SSS (ie Course Rating)? If not, you will get the wrong answer. Enter par as the same as SSS/CR.


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## Fish (Aug 22, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Yes that is right. You would still put 9 on the card in a medal as the software adjusts the score for handicap purposes.

It depends on your handicap and how many strokes you would receive on the hole in Stableford terms

So on a par  4 where you received one shot nett double bogey = 7 gross. ie 7 -1 =6 = 0 points so *any* score above 7 gets rounded down to 7
if you received two shots it would be 8 gross 8 - 2=6= 0 points.
		
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I know all that, I’m asking about the figure to put in the calculator, does it have to match the card or do we adjust it ourselves.


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## Fish (Aug 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Is the par the same as the SSS (ie Course Rating)? If not, you will get the wrong answer. Enter par as the same as SSS/CR.
		
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par is the same now, it never used to be, which was a pain, but thankfully it’s now 73/73.


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## rulefan (Aug 22, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Yes that is right. You would still put 9 on the card in a medal as the software adjusts the score for handicap purposes.

It depends on your handicap and how many strokes you would receive on the hole in Stableford terms

So on a par  4 where you received one shot nett double bogey = 7 gross. ie 7 -1 =6 = 0 points so *any* score above 7 gets rounded down to 7
if you received two shots it would be 8 gross 8 - 2=6= 0 points.
		
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I thought the question was re calculating a handicap index. The web site (https://www.calculator.net/golf-handicap-calculator.html) only asks for the 18 hole total score so cannot know about net double bogey.
That adjustment has to be made before entering 18 hole totals into the system


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## Fish (Aug 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I thought the question was re calculating a handicap index. The web site (https://www.calculator.net/golf-handicap-calculator.html) only asks for the 18 hole total score so cannot know about net double bogey.
That adjustment has to be made before entering 18 hole totals into the system
		
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It was, thank you for the clarification.


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## jim8flog (Aug 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I thought the question was re calculating a handicap index. The web site (https://www.calculator.net/golf-handicap-calculator.html) only asks for the 18 hole total score so cannot know about net double bogey.
That adjustment has to be made before entering 18 hole totals into the system
		
Click to expand...

 Which is my point. If a player is going to use this calculator they cannot simply put the round score in if there are hole scores on the card that require the nett double bogey adjustment. They have to put the adjusted score in which they must do for themselves if they are just keeping their own records. If they are taking the score from their handicap record then the must use the appropriate (already) adjusted figures.



Fish said:



			I know all that, I’m asking about the figure to put in the calculator, does it have to match the card or do we adjust it ourselves.
		
Click to expand...

 See above


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## nickjdavis (Aug 22, 2020)

...and this is the problem with a WHS that has different rules in different regions and random sites on the internet

folks stumble on a calculator on a web site and don't understa nd the limitations or differences in the "other regions interpretation" of the WHS that means they need to "adjust" the data that they enter.

it's not a criticism, it's just a warning that what you find on the web might not quite apply to the region you are in. A lot of folks will blindly use such site, without the benefit of the collective discussion/expertise here, and come up with the wrong answer....and ultimately be confused when they are finally given an Index different from what they thought they were going to get.


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## Wabinez (Aug 23, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			...and this is the problem with a WHS that has different rules in different regions and random sites on the internet

folks stumble on a calculator on a web site and don't understa nd the limitations or differences in the "other regions interpretation" of the WHS that means they need to "adjust" the data that they enter.

it's not a criticism, it's just a warning that what you find on the web might not quite apply to the region you are in. A lot of folks will blindly use such site, without the benefit of the collective discussion/expertise here, and come up with the wrong answer....and ultimately be confused when they are finally given an Index different from what they thought they were going to get.
		
Click to expand...

I know the risks, and I don’t care what WHS gives me. As Kaz is a great standard of golfer, I made a natural assumption that there wouldn’t be too many scores where she’s need to make a nett double bogey adjustment, and I took it into consideration with my own scores.

i also know that not everything read on the Internet is true, but it offered light relief and only took 20 minutes of my time to check it for a giggle.

surely as a WORLD Handicap System, there shouldn’t be different variations in different regions though!


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## rulefan (Aug 23, 2020)

Wabinez said:



			surely as a WORLD Handicap System, there shouldn’t be different variations in different regions though!
		
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It was always expected that there would be. The traditions and customs are too ingrained to be changed overnight.
In this specific case CONGU decided that the Par vs CR was too messy and produced no significant benefit to anyone.


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## 3offTheTee (Aug 23, 2020)

Is this soft and hard handicap still relevant. If so may I ask for somebody to explain in layman’s terms please?


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## rulefan (Aug 23, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Is this soft and hard handicap still relevant. If so may I ask for somebody to explain in layman’s terms please?
		
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This might help.

*5. Low Handicap Index*
A player's Low Handicap Index represents the demonstrated ability of a player over the 12 month period preceding the day on which the most recent score in their scoring record was played. It represents a reference point against which a player's current Handicap Index can be compared for other possible handicap adjustments. The Low Handicap Index is an official component of a player's handicap scoring record. A Low Handicap Index is only established after a golfer has posted at least 20 acceptable scores.

*6. Hard and Soft Caps*
The World Handicapping System is designed to limit the upward movement of a Handicap Index. There are two trigger points built into the system:

*The Soft Cap* - The soft cap is triggered when the difference between a player's newly calculated Handicap Index and their Low Handicap Index is greater than 3 strokes. When a player's new Handicap Index increase is greater than 3.0 strokes, the value above 3.0 strokes is restricted to 50% of the increase.

*The Hard Cap* - The hard cap triggers to restrict a player's Handicap Index to never increase more than 5.0 strokes above their Low Handicap Index


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## abjectplop (Aug 23, 2020)

Will the initial WHS calculation take account of past low CONGU handicap or is it simply based on 8 out of last 20? Could be huge variations where people have a low number but can't play to it if it's the latter.


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## rulefan (Aug 23, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Is this soft and hard handicap still relevant. If so may I ask for somebody to explain in layman’s terms please?
		
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Or this

It will work by first finding an anchor point, or a player’s low handicap index. This is the lowest handicap index a golfer has achieved within the last 12 months.

The cap will then limit the increase of that handicap index, again over the rolling 12 month period, “measured against the player’s lowest handicap index within that period of time”.

There are two forms of cap – soft and hard.

A* soft cap *means that when a new calculated handicap index is more than three strokes above the player’s lowest index within the trailing 12 months, the increase is suppressed so only half of any rise above three strokes is applied.

There is also a *hard cap*, which is the maximum your mark can increase over that low handicap index in a rolling 12 months.
That number is five. So it doesn’t matter how many 1/2s you add on in the soft cap and it doesn’t matter how badly you’ve played in the intervening period. You can only increase a maximum of five shots in that period.

So if you take that player with a low handicap index of 12, but their best 8 out of 20 sees them coming out at 20, their handicap is capped at 17.


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## Old Skier (Aug 23, 2020)

Traminator said:



			It's getting more complicated... 🤔

Paracetamol in overdrive... 😅
		
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Think its becoming over complicated because to many people are over thinking it. Just wait for your HC to be sent down the line and keep people away from the internet  Remind members that the WHS isn’t a WHS, but a variation of it.


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## jim8flog (Aug 23, 2020)

abjectplop said:



			Will the initial WHS calculation take account of past low CONGU handicap or is it simply based on 8 out of last 20? Could be huge variations where people have a low number but can't play to it if it's the latter.
		
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 Only the scores are in the last 20 qualifying scores that are on your handicap record are used.

On the assumption you are not a CAT 1 golfer The easiest way get Handicap Index that reflects your current ability is (if you do not play many comps) is to put in a Supplementary Score every time you play between now an November 2nd.


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## Ethan (Aug 23, 2020)

One thing people are going to have to get used to is the much more dynamic handicap style. In the old system, if your handicap was 9.0, say, you pretty much knew that your handcap wasn't going up until you had at least 5 bad rounds. No longer. You will now need to know which of your 20 scores is next to expire, because if it is a good one, even your best one, unless you replace it with something pretty much as good, your handicap is going to rise at least by some decimal places. On the other hand, if your worst of 8 is about to expire, and you put a good round in, it can drop your handicap by a nice chunk. If it is one of the 12 outside your best 8, your handicap will not rise no matter what you score, but will reduce if you better one of the 8 scores. 

Also, in the old system, if you were tracking to miss the buffer zone, it didn't really matter if you missed by by a little or a lot. Now every score can count. If your handicap is 9, again, then your best 8 scores are going to be in a range from a few shots below to a few above 9 over the course rating. Your worst score could be 13 or 14 over the CR, probably around 30 or 31 points. So scoring 32 points rather than 29 helps your handicap slightly. Therefore sticking at a so-so round is now more important than it was.


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## jim8flog (Aug 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			One thing people are going to have to get used to is the much more dynamic handicap style. In the old system, if your handicap was 9.0, say, you pretty much knew that your handcap wasn't going up until you had at least 5 bad rounds. No longer. You will now need to know which of your 20 scores is next to expire, because if it is a good one, even your best one, unless you replace it with something pretty much as good, your handicap is going to rise at least by some decimal places. On the other hand, if your worst of 8 is about to expire, and you put a good round in, it can drop your handicap by a nice chunk. If it is one of the 12 outside your best 8, your handicap will not rise no matter what you score, but will reduce if you better one of the 8 scores.

Also, in the old system, if you were tracking to miss the buffer zone, it didn't really matter if you missed by by a little or a lot. Now every score can count. If your handicap is 9, again, then your best 8 scores are going to be in a range from a few shots below to a few above 9 over the course rating. Your worst score could be 13 or 14 over the CR, probably around 30 or 31 points. So scoring 32 points rather than 29 helps your handicap slightly. Therefore sticking at a so-so round is now more important than it was.
		
Click to expand...

 Have you considered setting up a tracker on excel or similar for your own handicap index, it might surprise you.

I am a fairly inconsistent player these days within the range of 2 under current handicap to 12 over. I have been keeping track of my own for some time now but is has remained fairly consistent within a few decimal points.

Stick in enough scores at or around your handicap and you will not see much of a change at least I have not.


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## Ethan (Aug 23, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Have you considered setting up a tracker on excel or similar for your own handicap index, it might surprise you.

I am a fairly inconsistent player these days within the range of 2 under current handicap to 12 over. I have been keeping track of my own for some time now but is has remained fairly consistent within a few decimal points.

Stick in enough scores at or around your handicap and you will not see much of a change at least I have not.
		
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I have a spreadsheet running. It includes the gross score (adjusted as needed), and the order of expiry of the scores. 

The new system is sensitive to the expiring scores. Your 20th last score falls out when you play another round, and clearly if that was a good score, you will need to replace it with something similar of your handicap will rise. If you are a 9, at a course with course rating 72, your 8 scores are probably between 75 and 87, say. Your 9th best round is an 88. If you have a bad round the day your 75 expires, your handicap will will go up by 1.6, because you lose 75, you add 88, so that is 13 averaged over the 8 which is a 1.625 handicap rise.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Aug 23, 2020)

I think I will be rocking up to comp and it will be a bit like christmas day, waiting to see what I'm playing off today 

Certainly won't be tracking my 20th score which at the rate I manage to play comps around work and injuries these days is about 3 and a half years years back.

Consistantcy has not been my friend the last few years so could be very interesting.....

Four comps this year consistantly inconsistant...NR and  gross 75 in medal and 26 and 30 points in Stableford 

3 NR's and a gross 82 last year  Meant to be playing of 5 

Not much better looking further back, some car crash golf in there with not many completed rounds.


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## Ethan (Aug 23, 2020)

saving_par said:



			I think I will be rocking up to comp and it will be a bit like christmas day, waiting to see what I'm playing off today 

Certainly won't be tracking my 20th score which at the rate I manage to play comps around work and injuries these days is about 3 and a half years years back.

Consistantcy has not been my friend the last few years so could be very interesting.....

Four comps this year consistantly inconsistant...NR and  gross 75 in medal and 26 and 30 points in Stableford 

3 NR's and a gross 82 last year  Meant to be playing of 5 

Not much better looking further back, some car crash golf in there with not many completed rounds.
		
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You can have a few car crashes, they don't necessarily hurt your handicap. You can estimate your WHS handicap index quite easily, very easily if all on same course. Take the last 20 gross scores, NR's included. Find the best 8. Average the total by dividing by 8. Then deduct the course rating for your course/tees. You can find it here:  USGA slope/course ratings. Then that number, which will be a single figure for you, multiply that by 113/slope of your course.

My best 8 added up to 666 (the number of the beast). All were same course, same tees, so 666/8 = 83.25. if you have Course rating is 72, so 83.25 - 72 = 11.25. Slope is 142, so 11.25 x 113/142 = 9.0 (to 1 decimal place).

If, as you say, you have had a bad run recently, your handicap probably will go up. But the you find your form, it can drop pretty quickly too.


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## rulefan (Aug 23, 2020)

saving_par said:



			I think I will be rocking up to comp and it will be a bit like christmas day, waiting to see what I'm playing off today 

Click to expand...

Just check the app on your phone first thing in the morning.


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## jim8flog (Aug 23, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I have a spreadsheet running. It includes the gross score (adjusted as needed), and the order of expiry of the scores.

The new system is sensitive to the expiring scores. Your 20th last score falls out when you play another round, and clearly if that was a good score, you will need to replace it with something similar of your handicap will rise. If you are a 9, at a course with course rating 72, your 8 scores are probably between 75 and 87, say. Your 9th best round is an 88. If you have a bad round the day your 75 expires, your handicap will will go up by 1.6, because you lose 75, you add 88, so that is 13 averaged over the 8 which is a 1.625 handicap rise.
		
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Best 8 Between 75 and 87 *wow!!*  that is quite some range for best scores for a 9 handicap player.

I am currently 10. When I started in handicap terms my best 8 scores vary between 7 and 12 the 7 fell of a while ago and was replaced by a 12 and they now vary between 8 and 12 the actual index has only varied by 0.25 at most during the time I have been doing it.

I was also checking one of mates for him, also a 10 handicap, and his best in the same sort of range.


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## Ethan (Aug 23, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Best 8 Between 75 and 87 *wow!!*  that is quite some range for best scores for a 9 handicap player.

I am currently 10. When I started in handicap terms my best 8 scores vary between 7 and 12 the 7 fell of a while ago and was replaced by a 12 and they now vary between 8 and 12 the actual index has only varied by 0.25 at most during the time I have been doing it.
		
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Well, on a par and course rating 72 with slope 142, an average differential of 11.3 gives an exact handicap of 9. That is an average (of 8) score of 83.3 so the range could well include a 87.


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## nickjdavis (Aug 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Just check the app on your phone first thing in the morning.
		
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Any news on when this app is likely to see the light of day?


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## IanM (Aug 24, 2020)

Won't it be on the club computer like it is now?


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## mikejohnchapman (Aug 24, 2020)

IanM said:



			Won't it be on the club computer like it is now?
		
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Yes, on both normally with a fallback on the EG site if unavailable.


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## jim8flog (Aug 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Well, on a par and course rating 72 with slope 142, an average differential of 11.3 gives an exact handicap of 9. That is an average (of 8) score of 83.3 so the range could well include a 87.
		
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 Having slept on it. I would add that one of the major points is of the WHS is that if you put in enough cards on a regular basis it your Handicap Index should reflect current ability more quickly than the UHS (with the UHS it takes ten bad rounds to get a one shot increase) and without a handicap review you might never be at the handicap  level to suit ability.

Now if the 75 you had was a one off, scored say a year ago and was an exceptional score or thereabouts it is natural for it to fall off and bring you back to a handicap index to suit your current ability.

I now remember back in March doing an illustrative record for a similarly handicapped player who was declining in ability and with a space of 3 records being added to their record they saw a 1.5 increase in their handicap index.


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## jim8flog (Aug 24, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Any news on when this app is likely to see the light of day?
		
Click to expand...

 We use IG and the app has been around for years.

Is there going to be an England golf plus other regions App?


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## jmf1488 (Aug 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			You can have a few car crashes, they don't necessarily hurt your handicap. You can estimate your WHS handicap index quite easily, very easily if all on same course. Take the last 20 gross scores, NR's included. Find the best 8. Average the total by dividing by 8. Then deduct the course rating for your course/tees. You can find it here:  USGA slope/course ratings. Then that number, which will be a single figure for you, multiply that by 113/slope of your course.

My best 8 added up to 666 (the number of the beast). All were same course, same tees, so 666/8 = 83.25. if you have Course rating is 72, so 83.25 - 72 = 11.25. Slope is 142, so 11.25 x 113/142 = 9.0 (to 1 decimal place).

If, as you say, you have had a bad run recently, your handicap probably will go up. But the you find your form, it can drop pretty quickly too.
		
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My best adds up to 673. All same course all same tee alos. Course rating 75.1 slope is 139.

673/8 = 84.125 - 75.1 = 9.025x113/139 = 7.3

My club handicap right now is 15.


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## rulefan (Aug 24, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Any news on when this app is likely to see the light of day?
		
Click to expand...

You can see your current handicap on HowDidIDo, IG and Master Scoreboard now.


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## nickjdavis (Aug 24, 2020)

rulefan said:



			You can see your current handicap on HowDidIDo, IG and Master Scoreboard now.
		
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I thought that none of the ISV's were going to be allowed to publish handicaps and that everything would be done through the DotGolf system...hence why I thought there would be a specifically developed App for the WHS.


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## nickjdavis (Aug 24, 2020)

Question...

if a player currently holds both a CONGU handicap, and a handicap from another authority such as the EGA, which will take precedence when determining a players initial Handicap Index under the WHS on November 2nd?


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## rulefan (Aug 24, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			I thought that none of the ISV's were going to be allowed to publish handicaps and that everything would be done through the DotGolf system...hence why I thought there would be a specifically developed App for the WHS.
		
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The issue of player's Handicap Record is subject to Golf Union licencing. At least one ISV is not yet aware of what exactly they will be licenced to offer on this topic. I can't believe that they will not be permitted to publish the Index


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## Ethan (Aug 24, 2020)

jmf1488 said:



			My best adds up to 673. All same course all same tee alos. Course rating 75.1 slope is 139.

673/8 = 84.125 - 75.1 = 9.025x113/139 = 7.3

My club handicap right now is 15.
		
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Course Rating 75.1? Where do you play? Has the CR shot up from the SSS?


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 24, 2020)

jmf1488 said:



			My best adds up to 673. All same course all same tee alos. Course rating 75.1 slope is 139.

673/8 = 84.125 - 75.1 = 9.025x113/139 = 7.3

My club handicap right now is 15.
		
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Are you sure, that would mean your best eight scores average 6 under your current CONGU handicap?  I am not sure that's possible,  you would have to have started with a handicap someway in access of 54 to begin with by my reckoning.


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## 3offTheTee (Aug 24, 2020)

jmf1488 said:



			My best adds up to 673. All same course all same tee alos. Course rating 75.1 slope is 139.

673/8 = 84.125 - 75.1 = 9.025x113/139 = 7.3

My club handicap right now is 15.
		
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why is the calculation 113/139 and not 139/113?


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## jmf1488 (Aug 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Course Rating 75.1? Where do you play? Has the CR shot up from the SSS?
		
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Holywood in county down. I just googled holywood course rating and that's what it said 75.1.



doublebogey7 said:



			Are you sure, that would mean your best eight scores average 6 under your current CONGU handicap?  I am not sure that's possible,  you would have to have started with a handicap someway in access of 54 to begin with by my reckoning.
		
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I've no idea, I just copied Ethans calculations to get mine.


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## Swango1980 (Aug 24, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Have you considered setting up a tracker on excel or similar for your own handicap index, it might surprise you.

I am a fairly inconsistent player these days within the range of 2 under current handicap to 12 over. I have been keeping track of my own for some time now but is has remained fairly consistent within a few decimal points.

Stick in enough scores at or around your handicap and you will not see much of a change at least I have not.
		
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I have.

Current Handicap = 8.5

WHS Index = 9.6
Course Handicap Whites at my place = 11.2

If my next round is the same as my last (not very good), my Index will go to 10.3 (+0.7) and my Course Handicap to 12.1.


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## Ethan (Aug 24, 2020)

jmf1488 said:



			Holywood in county down. I just googled holywood course rating and that's what it said 75.1.



I've no idea, I just copied Ethans calculations to get mine.
		
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I am afraid that the course rating is not 75.1. See the link below:

Course rating Holywood.


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## jmf1488 (Aug 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I am afraid that the course rating is not 75.1. See the link below:

Course rating Holywood. 

Click to expand...

Works out 13.5 with proper course rating lol.


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## 3offTheTee (Aug 24, 2020)

jmf1488 said:



			My best adds up to 673. All same course all same tee alos. Course rating 75.1 slope is 139.

673/8 = 84.125 - 75.1 = 9.025x113/139 = 7.3

My club handicap right now is 15.
		
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Should the calculation be 139/113 rather than 113/139?

this would give a handicap of 11.1


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## jmf1488 (Aug 24, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Should the calculation be 139/113 rather than 113/139?

this would give a handicap of 11.1
		
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I just copied what Ethan did, I wasn't sure how to work it out. I was just curios as to what mine would have been.

I would prefer your way though.


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 24, 2020)

jmf1488 said:



			Holywood in county down. I just googled holywood course rating and that's what it said 75.1.



I've no idea, I just copied Ethans calculations to get mine.
		
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What are your 8 best rounds from.the last 20?


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## doublebogey7 (Aug 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I am afraid that the course rating is not 75.1. See the link below:

Course rating Holywood. 

Click to expand...

That would explain it


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## azazel (Aug 24, 2020)

I ended up with an index of 5.7, giving a course handicap of 7 going by that website and the figures I can find for course rating and slope. My current exact handicap is 6.1 so that all seems reasonably well in order, although I'm suspicious of the course rating I found on google as the club doesn't show up in the USGA index.


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## jim8flog (Aug 24, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Question...

if a player currently holds both a CONGU handicap, and a handicap from another authority such as the EGA, which will take precedence when determining a players initial Handicap Index under the WHS on November 2nd?
		
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1.4b/3 – Player Who Belongs to Multiple Golf Clubs Within Different
Jurisdictions Resulting in More Than One Handicap Index
Rule 1.1 states that the purpose of the World Handicap System is, among other
things, to give as many golfers as possible the opportunity to obtain and maintain
a Handicap Index.
Where a player is a member of a golf club located in a different jurisdiction from
the location of their home club, the player may be required to hold a separate
Handicap Index issued by the Authorized Association responsible for
handicapping within the different jurisdiction. While such a requirement is
discouraged, in order to ensure the same Handicap Index is issued by both
Authorized Associations, it is the player’s responsibility to return all acceptable
scores to both their home club and the golf club that is located in the different
jurisdiction.
Should there ever be a discrepancy between a player’s Handicap Index as issued
by different Authorized Associations, the Handicap Index within the jurisdiction
where the round is being played should be used. When playing outside of either
jurisdiction, the lowest Handicap Index should be used.


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## nickjdavis (Aug 25, 2020)

Thanks Jim....that covers what happens once an index is issued and the main thing I take from that is that it is the players responsibility to report scores from either jurisdiction to the other in order to maintain the same index in both jurisdictions

What remains unanswered is how the initial index is allocated in the first place...I guess the concept of a "home club" in other jurisdictions is the same as it is here under CONGU, so conceivably a player could have a CONGU home club and a Spanish Confederation (EGA) home club. I wonder if a player has to specify which of the two clubs is their...I dunno...call it "global home club"??


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## rulefan (Aug 25, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Thanks Jim....that covers what happens once an index is issued and the main thing I take from that is that it is the players responsibility to report scores from either jurisdiction to the other in order to maintain the same index in both jurisdictions

What remains unanswered is how the initial index is allocated in the first place...I guess the concept of a "home club" in other jurisdictions is the same as it is here under CONGU, so conceivably a player could have a CONGU home club and a Spanish Confederation (EGA) home club. I wonder if a player has to specify which of the two clubs is their...I dunno...call it "global home club"??
		
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I reckon it depends on the requirements of one or other of the Authorised Associations

_" ..... the player may be required to hold a separate Handicap Index issued by the Authorized Association responsible for handicapping within the different jurisdiction."_


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## Vikingman (Aug 25, 2020)

Been pouring down here so decided to go through the WHS slides again.  Now I know we've done it before but did we ever get a conclusive answer over rounding issues?

Using the Course Handicap tables (Ethan Warren) slide the course handicaps are all whole numbers.

So reading the chart, a handicap index of 15.6 on the white tees gives me a course handicap of 16.

So my playing handicap would be 16 x 0.95 = 15.2 (15)

However the course handicap slide is calculating to 1 decimal place.

Hence they give a course handicap of 16.4

So my playing handicap would be 16.4 x 0.95 = 15.6 (16)

At what point do we stop rounding to 1 decimal place?

Can someone please help.


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## rulefan (Aug 25, 2020)

The slides are out of date and were designed for the original expectation of how the calculation would be done.
The definitive answer from England Golf is that the Course Handicap is rounded before applying any handicap allowance.
The tables and charts show the correct figure.


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## nickjdavis (Aug 26, 2020)

If i remember correctly at the WHS presentations back in February...they said that the new system would look at historical scores up to 2 years old when calculating a players Index under the new system.

Is 2 years correct?? or will they go back further?


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## jim8flog (Aug 26, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			If i remember correctly at the WHS presentations back in February...they said that the new system would look at historical scores up to 2 years old when calculating a players Index under the new system.

Is 2 years correct?? or will they go back further?
		
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 By the time it comes in it will be closer to 3

January 2018


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## Crazyface (Aug 28, 2020)

Our Comp sec, who does a great job of keeping us informed, sent an e mail yesterday letting us know more on the WHS but more interestingly for me, the courses actual rating. With course ratings given as 55 to 155, why is that? Why not 1 to 100??? Our place has come out at 130 for the white tees. Is this high? Has anyone else got a higher number at there course?


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## Tommy10 (Aug 28, 2020)

746/8 = 93.25 - 71.9 = 21.35x113/132 = 18.3

Current handicap is 21.8.


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## Ethan (Aug 28, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Our Comp sec, who does a great job of keeping us informed, sent an e mail yesterday letting us know more on the WHS but more interestingly for me, the courses actual rating. With course ratings given as 55 to 155, why is that? Why not 1 to 100??? Our place has come out at 130 for the white tees. Is this high? Has anyone else got a higher number at there course?
		
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That is the slope, which is a measure of how relatively difficult the course is for bogey (average) players than scratch, so really drives the difference between your personal handicap index and the course handicap. 

The course rating is a different number, similar to your SSS.


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## jim8flog (Aug 28, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Our Comp sec, who does a great job of keeping us informed, sent an e mail yesterday letting us know more on the WHS but more interestingly for me, the courses actual rating. With course ratings given as 55 to 155, why is that? Why not 1 to 100??? Our place has come out at 130 for the white tees. Is this high? Has anyone else got a higher number at there course?
		
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AS per Ethan you are confusing slope and course rating
Answer 1
The reason slope starts at 55 and not 0 is because they could only only set it at 0 if every single course in the world had been rated to ascertain the easiest course in the world which would then be rated as zero*. So they set it at a number from which it could go up *and *down and that number is 113.

*Problematic is somebody then built an even easier one. Setting it at 55 means that they could go lower if the need ever arose.

 Answer 2 
If it is set at zero any number multiplied by zero = zero. So play at a course with a course rating of zero and everybody plays off scratch.


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## Whereditgo (Aug 28, 2020)

Tommy10 said:



			746/8 = 93.25 - 71.9 = 21.35x113/132 = 18.3

Current handicap is 21.8.
		
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Think that should be:

21.35 x (132/113) = 24.9


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## Whereditgo (Aug 28, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Our Comp sec, who does a great job of keeping us informed, sent an e mail yesterday letting us know more on the WHS but more interestingly for me, the courses actual rating. With course ratings given as 55 to 155, why is that? Why not 1 to 100??? Our place has come out at 130 for the white tees. Is this high? Has anyone else got a higher number at there course?
		
Click to expand...

Ours is 135 off the yellows with a course rating of 72.2 (par is 72) and 138 off the whites with a course rating of 73.1. I don't believe that to be especially high?


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## Ethan (Aug 28, 2020)

Whereditgo said:



			Think that should be:

21.35 x (132/113) = 24.9
		
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No, Tommy is correct, 113/slope. The logic is that his scores were made on a course harder for the average player than the 113 zero-reference baseline, so his handicap index should be lower to reflect that better play achieved on a more difficult course. 

His course handicap at his own club will be 21.4, in other words the base average score - course rating without the 113/slope correction. If he goes to an easy course with slope 113, his course handicap will be 18.3, but if goes to Carmoustie or somewhere with slope 155, it will be 25.1.


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## Ethan (Aug 28, 2020)

Whereditgo said:



			Ours is 135 off the yellows with a course rating of 72.2 (par is 72) and 138 off the whites with a course rating of 73.1. I don't believe that to be especially high?
		
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I think that suggests a pretty decent test of golf. I play at Bearwood Lakes which is 142 slope off the whites, but I played last week at another local course which was 125, and I don't think it is a pushover.


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## rulefan (Aug 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			I think that suggests a pretty decent test of golf. I play at Bearwood Lakes which is 142 slope off the whites, but I played last week at another local course which was 125, and I don't think it is a pushover.
		
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Are you confusing Slope Rating and Course Rating. You need both to register relative difficulty for yourself.
What were the Course Ratings?


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## Whereditgo (Aug 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			No, Tommy is correct, 113/slope.
		
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Ah, my mistake, I thought the calculation was Slope rating / 113 doh!


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## rulefan (Aug 28, 2020)




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## Whereditgo (Aug 28, 2020)

Not wanting to add further confusion, but I imagine the calculation of Handicap Index will be further complicated by having a mix of rounds played off different tee's in a players best 8 from 20 and therefore different course ratings?


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## Ethan (Aug 28, 2020)

rulefan said:



View attachment 32185

Click to expand...

The course handicap is actually easier than that, because the handicap index involves multiplying the base calculation of average score - course rating by 113/slope, then the course handicap multiples it back by slope/113, so you can cancel those out and just use the base average score - course rating. In the case above this is 21.4, I think. 

The handicap index should be considered a base handicap that compares to players at other courses. When you play any course, including your own, your handicap adjusts to the relative difficulty (as measured by slope) of that course. It will go up for Carnoustie and down for Pitch and Putt GC. 

Despite the mathematical complexity of this system, it is conceptually fairly reasonable.


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## Ethan (Aug 28, 2020)

Whereditgo said:



			Not wanting to add further confusion, but I imagine the calculation of Handicap Index will be further complicated by having a mix of rounds played off different tee's in a players best 8 from 20 and therefore different course ratings?
		
Click to expand...

It will all be done automatically, so you can sit back and let the computer do it, but of you want to calculate it yourself, you can set up a spreadsheet and put in columns for the gross score, course rating and slope. For each round, let the magic pixies calculate gross (adjusted for any scores worse than net double bogey) - course rating x 113/slope and average the best 8.

Then the handicap index adjusts to courses in the usual way regardless of the range of courses played before.


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## jim8flog (Aug 28, 2020)

Whereditgo said:



			Not wanting to add further confusion, but I imagine the calculation of Handicap Index will be further complicated by having a mix of rounds played off different tee's in a players best 8 from 20 and therefore different course ratings?
		
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 It does not matter adjustments will be made against the course rating which will normally be (as you say )  different between tees and a players Course handicap will often be different between the tees. Adjustments will be made by comparing the Coures Rating as modified by the paying condition calculation against the players net differential.


Even under CONGU UHS, which uses the course CSS,  which will often be different between tees.


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## Tommy10 (Aug 28, 2020)

Whereditgo said:



			Think that should be:

21.35 x (132/113) = 24.9
		
Click to expand...

I could deal with that, those shots would come in very useful


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## Tommy10 (Aug 28, 2020)

Whereditgo said:



			Ah, my mistake, I thought the calculation was Slope rating / 113 doh!
		
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So 18.3 is correct on that calculation then.....yikes


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## Ethan (Aug 28, 2020)

Tommy10 said:



			So 18.3 is correct on that calculation then.....yikes
		
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Yes, but that is the handicap index. Your actual course handicap on your home course will be 21.4, i.e. that 18.3 x slope/113.


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## rulefan (Aug 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			When you play any course, including your own, your handicap adjusts to the relative difficulty *(as measured by slope)* of that course. It will go up for Carnoustie and down for Pitch and Putt GC.
		
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*(*as measured by slope* and Course Rating)*




			Despite the mathematical complexity of this system, it is conceptually fairly reasonable.
		
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Agreed


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## Tommy10 (Aug 28, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Yes, but that is the handicap index. Your actual course handicap on your home course will be 21.4, i.e. that 18.3 x slope/113.
		
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Ah right, thanks for that. Only 0.4 away from what it actually is at the moment. That's more like it


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## IanM (Aug 28, 2020)

Launceston golf club have a nice simple explanation of the WHS on their site.  One page, job done.

I think I can live without a spreadsheet... I am sure a quick look at master scoreboard will tell me what I need to know.


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## rulefan (Aug 28, 2020)

IanM said:



			Launceston golf club have a nice simple explanation of the WHS on their site.  One page, job done.
		
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Apart from the odd error and the fact that it is now out of date, I must say it is pretty good.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Aug 31, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I've had a look at my handicap record and it certainly looks like handicaps will be quite volatile...

As I mentioned before, I don't have course/slope ratings so can't calc my handicap exactly as WHS will do. However, simply using the gross differential between my score and CSS I come away with 0.75. Interestingly, in four rounds one of my better scores will drop off - 1 under CSS - and be replaced with a not very good score - 5 over CSS - (assuming I don't better that in the next four rounds, which hopefully I will). That one change will double my handicap index (under this crude method) to 1.5.

That seems like a big change on paper. Although arguably, I guess if I don't score better than 5 over in my next four rounds maybe it should jump up. Will take a bit of getting used to, I think.
		
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I would kill for a not very good score of 5 over css.

My not very good scores are either a series of NR holes or its that bad I feel I have to leave the course.

Had more NR's in the last 2-3 years than in the previous 30 years combined.

My good golf is still threatening par golf but my B game is nearer 90


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## timd77 (Aug 31, 2020)

I left my last club during lockdown, I only joined there last September and with the winter we had, played a handful of comps. All scores there were on intelligent golf. Since I left, I’ve not been able to log into IG at all and so don’t have a log of the scores I recorded sept-March. It was the first course I joined and so started off with a high hcp of 30, always felt it was too high, regularly scored 40+ points but the comps were all non qual from December so never had a hcp reduction.

The club I’m at now is on HDID, I’ve recorded 3 competition rounds since joining, but HDID only shows scores from my current club. I asked for a hcp review and was cut to 20.

Any ideas how I can access the scores from my last club so I can get an idea of what my whs might come out at?


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## nickjdavis (Aug 31, 2020)

Your handicap secretary at your new club could get them for you from the CDH (assuming he is inclined to do so and not snowed under with a mountain of work!!!).


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## nickjdavis (Aug 31, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I've had a look at my handicap record and it certainly looks like handicaps will be quite volatile...

As I mentioned before, I don't have course/slope ratings so can't calc my handicap exactly as WHS will do. However, simply using the gross differential between my score and CSS I come away with 0.75.k.
		
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It is my understadning that the WHS, when calculating your initial Handicap Index using your historical record, will use the CSS of past qualifying rounds to determine your gross differentials. Only new cards from November 2nd onwards will use the Course Rating in the gross differential calculations. So your calculations are probably more accurate than you think!!!


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## rulefan (Aug 31, 2020)

timd77 said:



			I left my last club during lockdown, I only joined there last September and with the winter we had, played a handful of comps. All scores there were on intelligent golf. Since I left, I’ve not been able to log into IG at all and so don’t have a log of the scores I recorded sept-March. It was the first course I joined and so started off with a high hcp of 30, always felt it was too high, regularly scored 40+ points but the comps were all non qual from December so never had a hcp reduction.

The club I’m at now is on HDID, I’ve recorded 3 competition rounds since joining, but HDID only shows scores from my current club. I asked for a hcp review and was cut to 20.

Any ideas how I can access the scores from my last club so I can get an idea of what my whs might come out at?
		
Click to expand...

You should go the Members section of England Golf and join. 

https://www.englandgolf.org/my-account/become-a-member/ 

*All* your scores are on the CDH.


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## rulefan (Aug 31, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Hmmm... interesting!
		
Click to expand...

_" when calculating your initial Handicap Index using your historical record, will use the CSS of past qualifying rounds to determine your gross differentials."_ is correct


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## timd77 (Aug 31, 2020)

rulefan said:



			You should go the Members section of England Golf and join.

https://www.englandgolf.org/my-account/become-a-member/

*All* your scores are on the CDH.
		
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I’ve had a look on there and can’t see it. I registered a couple of weeks ago and my CDH is on there but I can’t see anything to do with previous scores. I’ll email them...

Cheers anyway 👍🏻


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## nickjdavis (Aug 31, 2020)

timd77 said:



			I’ve had a look on there and can’t see it. I registered a couple of weeks ago and my CDH is on there but I can’t see anything to do with previous scores. I’ll email them...

Cheers anyway 👍🏻
		
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You cannot see your historical scores on that site. You can only see your handicap progression.


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## nickjdavis (Aug 31, 2020)

rulefan said:



			You should go the Members section of England Golf and join.

https://www.englandgolf.org/my-account/become-a-member/

*All* your scores are on the CDH.
		
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They may be on the CDH but they are not visible to you under "my account". I've often wondered what the point of the "my-account" section is because it delivers no value whatsoever, other than allowing you to print out a "card" with your CDH number on it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 31, 2020)

Was told today that as our rollup uses the club system (IG) to return our scores then the fact that we use a recognised golf app AUTOMATICALLY means our scores are included for WHS purposes whether we like it or not.  Is that the case.  Most of us in the rollup do not want our rollup scores to count - our roll up is just a bit of fun with off putting banter being de rigueur.  Plus as we do gimmes would that make every roll up round a NR.


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## rulefan (Aug 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Was told today that as our rollup uses the club system (IG) to return our scores then the fact that we use a recognised golf app AUTOMATICALLY means our scores are included for WHS purposes whether we like it or not.  Is that the case.  Most of us in the rollup do not want our rollup scores to count - our roll up is just a bit of fun with off putting banter being de rigueur.  Plus as we do gimmes would that make every roll up round a NR.
		
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The transition only uses Qualifying scores (as defined by CONGU).

Who gave you that information?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 1, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The transition only uses Qualifying scores (as defined by CONGU).

Who gave you that information?
		
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The organiser of our rollup - who will have been in discussions with our club management team over it.

I am assuming that a qualifying score as defined by CONGU does not make reference to the inclusion in ‘scope’ of WHS of any and all scores entered using a recognised system/app.   Also - you refer to a ‘transition’ - does the use of an app kick in after the transition period?

In any case - from your answer I take it that what our organiser has been told is not the case. And that we can continue to play our rollup without scores being included in whs.  

He also told me that if we chose to NOT use the app for our scoring we’d be fine. But I note that to manage tee bookings for the rollup, we have set up our rollup on our system in the same way as if it were a formal club comp.


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## jim8flog (Sep 1, 2020)

timd77 said:



			I left my last club during lockdown, I only joined there last September and with the winter we had, played a handful of comps. All scores there were on intelligent golf. Since I left, I’ve not been able to log into IG at all and so don’t have a log of the scores I recorded sept-March. It was the first course I joined and so started off with a high hcp of 30, always felt it was too high, regularly scored 40+ points but the comps were all non qual from December so never had a hcp reduction.

The club I’m at now is on HDID, I’ve recorded 3 competition rounds since joining, but HDID only shows scores from my current club. I asked for a hcp review and was cut to 20.

Any ideas how I can access the scores from my last club so I can get an idea of what my whs might come out at?
		
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If all the comps from the previous clubs were non qualifiers they will not be on you on your handicap record and will therefore not be part of your WHS Handicap Index calculation. 

 At present only the 3 qualifiers from you current club will count so at this moment it is very simple it is the best of your 3 minus 2 shots.


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## jim8flog (Sep 1, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Was told today that as our rollup uses the club system (IG) to return our scores then the fact that we use a recognised golf app AUTOMATICALLY means our scores are included for WHS purposes whether we like it or not.  Is that the case.  Most of us in the rollup do not want our rollup scores to count - our roll up is just a bit of fun with off putting banter being de rigueur.  Plus as we do gimmes would that make every roll up round a NR.
		
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On going - scores from roll ups and swindles *can* count towards your handicap record provided they are played in accordance with the rules of golf so any hole where you have not hole out  should be recorded as a  'no score' and a penalty score may be applied.

It would very depend on how your club sets up the swindle/comp in the first place. I.e it should set it up as Non Qualifier but anybody who wants their score to count should submit the card as a preregistered round.


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## rulefan (Sep 1, 2020)

The following will only apply after WHS starts

2.1a


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 1, 2020)

Thanks guys.  The responses suggest to me clearly that although our rollup is set up on our booking and score return system, that DOES NOT in itself mean that the rollup competition is a qualifier in the context of WBS unless we specifically declare it to be. 

My issue with what I was being told was that the simple fact that we use the IG app and system as we do for roll ups then THAT, with no other declaration by the rollup organiser, counted as pre-registration and made the rollup comp a WHS Qualifier and there was nothing we could do about it. And that just didn’t seem right.

The final paragraph Of 2.1a definitely puts rollup comp In scope of WHS, but the para then states clearly that the handicap committee has the final say WHETHER IT IS OR NOT, and it can specifically exclude our rollup comp from being a qualifier - regardless of use or not of our system.


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## xreyuk (Sep 3, 2020)

Been trying to do my 'initial' handicap as though I'm not going to play any more rounds this year, and wondered if someone could help.

Do we know if it takes CSS from the previous rounds into account? I'll post my best 8 scores out of the last 20 with SSS and CSS below, see what you guys come out with.

I'm currently a 4.1 handicap, my course is a par 72, SSS 72 off the yellows, SSS 73 off the whites 

Score SSS CSS
72     72    72
74     73    74
74     73    74
76     73    74
77     72    72
77     73    76 (RO)
78     73    73 
79     73    74


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## Ethan (Sep 3, 2020)

xreyuk said:



			Been trying to do my 'initial' handicap as though I'm not going to play any more rounds this year, and wondered if someone could help.

Do we know if it takes CSS from the previous rounds into account? I'll post my best 8 scores out of the last 20 with SSS and CSS below, see what you guys come out with.

I'm currently a 4.1 handicap, my course is a par 72, SSS 72 off the yellows, SSS 73 off the whites

Score SSS CSS
72     72    72
74     73    74
74     73    74
76     73    74
77     72    72
77     73    76 (RO)
78     73    73
79     73    74
		
Click to expand...

As I understand it, CSS will be taken into account for the initial WHS handicap, thereafter it will be course rating plus a different sort of weather adjustment whose name I have forgotten. 

The calculation for now is gross - CSS averaged over the 8. Your differentials are 0, 0, 0, 2, 5, 1, 5, 5, total 18/8, average is 2.25. 

Then you multiply that by 113/slope, which will almost certainly reduce it further as it sounds like your course has a decent slope. 

Happy to be corrected if I have got the calculations wrong here.


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## Old Skier (Sep 3, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thanks guys.  The responses suggest to me clearly that although our rollup is set up on our booking and score return system, that DOES NOT in itself mean that the rollup competition is a qualifier in the context of WBS unless we specifically declare it to be.

My issue with what I was being told was that the simple fact that we use the IG app and system as we do for roll ups then THAT, with no other declaration by the rollup organiser, counted as pre-registration and made the rollup comp a WHS Qualifier and there was nothing we could do about it. And that just didn’t seem right.

The final paragraph Of 2.1a definitely puts rollup comp In scope of WHS, but the para then states clearly that the handicap committee has the final say WHETHER IT IS OR NOT, and it can specifically exclude our rollup comp from being a qualifier - regardless of use or not of our system.
		
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Or it could be seen as a regular organised event with other players.

I think it’s about compramise and have come to an agreement with the guys that organise our clubs Friday roll up that one a month, notified in advance, will be deemed a qualifier. This gives a balance between being able to play social golf and being able to play a qualifier.


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## jim8flog (Sep 3, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Then you multiply that by 113/slope, which will almost certainly reduce it further as it sounds like your course has a decent slope.

Happy to be corrected if I have got the calculations wrong here.
		
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It is slope divided by 113


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## Ethan (Sep 3, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			It is slope divided by 113
		
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No, to get the handicap index it is 113/slope. To get back to the course index you multiply the handicap index by slope/113, although these two cancel each other out and you can just go back to the average differential.


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## rulefan (Sep 3, 2020)

xreyuk said:



			Been trying to do my 'initial' handicap as though I'm not going to play any more rounds this year, and wondered if someone could help.

Do we know if it takes CSS from the previous rounds into account? I'll post my best 8 scores out of the last 20 with SSS and CSS below, see what you guys come out with.

I'm currently a 4.1 handicap, my course is a par 72, SSS 72 off the yellows, SSS 73 off the whites

Score SSS CSS
72     72    72
74     73    74
74     73    74
76     73    74
77     72    72
77     73    76 (RO)
78     73    73
79     73    74
		
Click to expand...

Your WHS Score differential for each round is:

(113 / Slope Rating) x (Gross Score (adjusted for ndb) - CSS) - calculated to 1 dec place rounded.

Your Index would then be the average of the Score Differentials - rounded to 1 dec place.

But you haven't given us the Slope Rating


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## Temeura (Sep 3, 2020)

As a new player, this is all very confusing. I thought I understood what a handicap was before I started playing.


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## IanM (Sep 3, 2020)

Temeura said:



			As a new player, this is all very confusing. I thought I understood what a handicap was before I started playing.
		
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Much of this thread contains stuff you won't ever need to know. 😁


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## Temeura (Sep 3, 2020)

IanM said:



			Much of this thread contains stuff you won't ever need to know. 😁
		
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The more I read, the less I know.


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## jim8flog (Sep 4, 2020)

Ethan said:



			No, to get the handicap index it is 113/slope. To get back to the course index you multiply the handicap index by slope/113, although these two cancel each other out and you can just go back to the average differential.
		
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I read your post 



Ethan said:



			As I understand it, CSS will be taken into account for the initial WHS handicap, thereafter it will be course rating plus a different sort of weather adjustment whose name I have forgotten.

The calculation for now is gross - CSS averaged over the 8. Your differentials are 0, 0, 0, 2, 5, 1, 5, 5, total 18/8, average is 2.25.

Then you multiply that by 113/slope, which will almost certainly reduce it further as it sounds like your course has a decent slope.

Happy to be corrected if I have got the calculations wrong here.
		
Click to expand...

as advising xreyuk of his Course Handicap

Course Handicap = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating ÷ 113)


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## jim8flog (Sep 4, 2020)

Temeura said:



			As a new player, this is all very confusing. I thought I understood what a handicap was before I started playing.
		
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 It will be very simple and easy when it all starts

Step 1 Check you handicap index via your computer, smartphone app or clubs computer terminal.  (You only need to check it again if you have submitted a qualifying score since you last checked it).

Step 2 Check which tee you will be playing from

Step 3 Look at the charts that will at the club for that tee and convert your Handicap to index to your Course Handicap.

Step 4 Social golf go out and play

Step 5 Competition Play.  Check the stroke allowance for the competition and  work out your Playing Handicap. Go out and play.


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## rulefan (Sep 4, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			It will be very simple and easy when it all starts

Step 1 Check you handicap index via your computer, smartphone app or clubs computer terminal.  (You only need to check it again if you have submitted a qualifying score since you last checked it).

Step 2 Check which tee you will be playing from

Step 3 Look at the charts that will at the club for that tee and convert your Handicap to index to your Course Handicap.

Step 4 Social golf go out and play

Step 5 Competition Play.  Check the stroke allowance for the competition and  work out your Playing Handicap. Go out and play.
		
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In most/many clubs all that information will be on the screen when you check in to play. And even better. if your club has an appropriate printer, your card (or a label) will be printed with your appropriate handicap.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 5, 2020)

Whs guidelines on our website say it will be mandatory to submit all singles competition scores, but optional to submit social/recreational scores.  I am still not sure whether a social/recreational Singles competitive score MUST be included - our rollup is a singles stableford competition set up as a comp on our club system - and we return our scores through the system app.


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## Old Skier (Sep 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Whs guidelines on our website say it will be mandatory to submit all singles competition scores, but optional to submit social/recreational scores.  I am still not sure whether a social/recreational Singles competitive score MUST be included - our rollup is a singles stableford competition set up as a comp on our club system - and we return our scores through the system app.
		
Click to expand...

Sounds more like an officially run comp explained like that and possibly should have always counted as a qualifier unless you had gimmes decided between yourself about bunkers etc.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 5, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Sounds more like an officially run comp explained like that and possibly should have always counted as a qualifier unless you had gimmes decided between yourself about bunkers etc.
		
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It isn’t officially run - it is run by the roll-up organiser and he has no standing in the club. And as it is a rollup and played for fun within any group of three or four we can gives putts...though we do so with consideration of all others playing in the individual stableford.  So no stupid gimmes.  We also run our own rollup handicap adjustment system so many of us play in the rollup off a lower handicap than our official handicap. 

We use the club system primarily to reserve the tee times that the club had agreed that we can have. And the easiest way of doing that and capturing our scores is setting the rollup up as a competition in the context of our system and then we can use the app to return our scores as we cannot all hang around while all the 10 rollup groups come in.


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## rulefan (Sep 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It isn’t officially run - it is run by the roll-up organiser and he has no standing in the club. And as it is a rollup and played for fun within any group of three or four we can gives putts...though we do so with consideration of all others playing in the individual stableford.  So no stupid gimmes.  We also run our own rollup handicap adjustment system so many of us play in the rollup off a lower handicap than our official handicap.

We use the club system primarily to reserve the tee times that the club had agreed that we can have. And the easiest way of doing that and capturing our scores is setting the rollup up as a competition in the context of our system and then we can use the app to return our scores as we cannot all hang around while all the 10 rollup groups come in.
		
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Presumably they are currently set up as Non-Qualifiers.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It isn’t officially run - it is run by the roll-up organiser and he has no standing in the club. And as it is a rollup and played for fun within any group of three or four we can gives putts...though we do so with consideration of all others playing in the individual stableford.  So no stupid gimmes.  We also run our own rollup handicap adjustment system so many of us play in the rollup off a lower handicap than our official handicap.

We use the club system primarily to reserve the tee times that the club had agreed that we can have. And the easiest way of doing that and capturing our scores is setting the rollup up as a competition in the context of our system and then we can use the app to return our scores as we cannot all hang around while all the 10 rollup groups come in.
		
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Shocking decision if these are counted as qualifiers?


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## Ethan (Sep 5, 2020)

Isn't the concept of qualifiers essentially going out the window now, and instead we have rounds which are either registered to count or not (en masse or an individual opt-in basis), and roll up rounds can count in this if you so register them?


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## jim8flog (Sep 5, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It isn’t officially run - it is run by the roll-up organiser and he has no standing in the club. And as it is a rollup and played for fun within any group of three or four we can gives putts...though we do so with consideration of all others playing in the individual stableford.  So no stupid gimmes.  We also run our own rollup handicap adjustment system so many of us play in the rollup off a lower handicap than our official handicap.

We use the club system primarily to reserve the tee times that the club had agreed that we can have. And the easiest way of doing that and capturing our scores is setting the rollup up as a competition in the context of our system and then we can use the app to return our scores as we cannot all hang around while all the 10 rollup groups come in.
		
Click to expand...

 As I understand it, it does not that have to be run as a qualifier but a player can chose to have the card treated as a preregistered round without the need to use the book or whatever you do provided it is played in accordance with the rules of golf e.g. no gimme putts


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## rulefan (Sep 5, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			As I understand it, it does not that have to be run as a qualifier but a player can chose to have the card treated as a preregistered round without the need to use the book or whatever you do provided it is played in accordance with the rules of golf e.g. no gimme putts
		
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If a player chooses to have a non comp count as a handicap counting score under CONGU or WHS, it has to be pre-declared.
Unless (post WHS) is it played in a regular 'roll up' or similar, formally recognised by the committee as a handicap counting 'competition'.

Rule 2.1a(iii)


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## jim8flog (Sep 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			If a player chooses to have a non comp count as a handicap counting score under CONGU or WHS, it has to be pre-declared.
Unless (post WHS) is it played in a regular 'roll up' or similar, formally recognised by the committee as a handicap counting 'competition'.

Rule 2.1a(iii)
		
Click to expand...

Rule 2.1 a (iii)
Last paragraph

The Handicap Committee may consider a player to have pre-registered their
intent to submit an acceptable score for handicap purposes when playing an
authorized format of play in a regular, organized event with other players.


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## doublebogey7 (Sep 6, 2020)

Kaz said:



			What happens when you play a comp and the results aren't processed before the next time you play? Currently it's easy to tell if you are due a cut or not based on SSS and apply it. What's the equivalent process under WHS?

From what I've heard so far there seems to be bit of a head in the sand attitude to this....
		
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Not at all,  all scores entered will be added to your handicap record overnight regardless of whether or not the competition has been closed by your club committee.


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## srixon 1 (Sep 6, 2020)

Does anyone know if there is an app for the WHS yet?


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## jim8flog (Sep 6, 2020)

Kaz said:



			What happens when you play a comp and the results aren't processed before the next time you play? Currently it's easy to tell if you are due a cut or not based on SSS and apply it. What's the equivalent process under WHS?

From what I've heard so far there seems to be bit of a head in the sand attitude to this....
		
Click to expand...

 The requirement to self adjust has gone with the WHS.  So whatever the computers says is your Handicap Index on the day you play  that is the correct H.I..


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## Springveldt (Sep 6, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It isn’t officially run - it is run by the roll-up organiser and he has no standing in the club. And as it is a rollup and played for fun within any group of three or four we can gives putts...though we do so with consideration of all others playing in the individual stableford.  So no stupid gimmes.  We also run our own rollup handicap adjustment system so many of us play in the rollup off a lower handicap than our official handicap.

We use the club system primarily to reserve the tee times that the club had agreed that we can have. And the easiest way of doing that and capturing our scores is setting the rollup up as a competition in the context of our system and then we can use the app to return our scores as we cannot all hang around while all the 10 rollup groups come in.
		
Click to expand...

From my understanding if you get a handicap adjustment for the rollup then it will be included in your initial handicap index if it’s in the last 20 rounds. Only qualifying rounds are included in your initial calculation.


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## rulefan (Sep 6, 2020)

Springveldt said:



			From my understanding if you get a handicap adjustment for the rollup then it *will be* *(?)* included in your initial handicap index if it’s in the last 20 rounds. Only qualifying rounds are included in your initial calculation.
		
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CONGU does not currently accept rollup scores.


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## Springveldt (Sep 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			CONGU does not currently accept rollup scores.
		
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They are entering their scores into the clubs software, so if they get handicap adjustments then it would be a qualifier, right? No handicap adjustment would indicate it’s not a qualifier and would be ignored.


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## rulefan (Sep 7, 2020)

Springveldt said:



			They are entering their scores into the clubs software, so if they get handicap adjustments then it would be a qualifier, right? No handicap adjustment would indicate it’s not a qualifier and would be ignored.
		
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If they are using the club software to enter scores for a 'competition', the competition would have to be set up as a qualifier or a non qualifier. Where the sores are qualifying scores or nor depends on that status assigned to the competition. Only those scores from qualifying comps will be used the the transition.
The point is that CONGU does not yet allow for non-official (ie not run by the Committee) competitions to be deemed as qualifiers.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 7, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Rule 2.1 a (iii)
Last paragraph

The Handicap Committee *may *consider a player to have pre-registered their
intent to submit an acceptable score for handicap purposes when playing an
authorized format of play in a regular, organized event with other players.
		
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Is the important word that which I have highlighted.  So if the handicap Committee does *not *consider a member entering our roll-up as pre-registering then the rollup comp remains a non-qualifier.  The fact that we use the club system to run our rollup comp is therefore irrelevant.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 7, 2020)

Springveldt said:



			From my understanding if you get a handicap adjustment for the rollup then it will be included in your initial handicap index if it’s in the last 20 rounds. Only qualifying rounds are included in your initial calculation.
		
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...and so if our rollup comps are *not *considered qualifying rounds then any rollup handicap adjustment is irrelevant. 

Note that the handicap adjustment we apply is nothing to do with the score the players shoot.  So for example I can play to any number over my handicap (the number is irrelevant) yet win the rollup.  The winners handicap is cut 0.1 for every £1 won - so if I win say £16 from the roll-up pot then I get cut 1.6 off my exact club handicap.  So in effect 2 shots.  Such handicap adjustments could never be included in a handicap index calculation.


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## Springveldt (Sep 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



			If they are using the club software to enter scores for a 'competition', the competition would have to be set up as a qualifier or a non qualifier. Where the sores are qualifying scores or nor depends on that status assigned to the competition. Only those scores from qualifying comps will be used the the transition.
The point is that CONGU does not yet allow for non-official (ie not run by the Committee) competitions to be deemed as qualifiers.
		
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That's what I was getting at, obviously in a poor way. 

I've just calculated my initial WHS index which comes out at 7.6 if the CSS is used (I believe this is what is being used) or 7.7 if it's the course rating. I think that gives me a course handicap of 9 for my course depending on how the rounding is done for course handicap. My course has a slope of 139 so the course rating index of 7.7 works out at 9.47, if that is rounded to the nearest whole number then it is 9, but if they round to 1 decimal place first, then to the nearest number it would be 10 (9.5 to 1 dp, then 10 to whole number). CSS based index of 7.6 gives me a course handicap of 9 which is the same as my current CONGU handicap of 9.1

I've got a differential of 8.2 dropping off with my next round but the next counting differential doesn't drop off for 5 rounds (which is a 5.7 so I need a really good round there), so I've got a few rounds to get a decent score in again. Going to be interesting with this new system if you are tracking your handicap as some weeks will feel like you have a free shot at lowering your handicap with no risk of going up, others will feel like you need a good round if one of your best differentials are about to fall off.


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## jim8flog (Sep 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



			CONGU does not currently accept rollup scores.
		
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However they currently expect them to be used when carrying out the Annual review.

(1) Which system is simpler collating a years worth of scores and reviewing them
(2) Allowing a player to submit each score as it is produced.

However I also presume all previous edicts from England Golf and CONGU relating to the UHS are null and void when the WHS comes in.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



			If they are using the club software to enter scores for a 'competition', the competition would have to be set up as a qualifier or a non qualifier. Where the sores are qualifying scores or nor depends on that status assigned to the competition. Only those scores from qualifying comps will be used the the transition.
The point is that CONGU does not yet allow for non-official (ie not run by the Committee) competitions to be deemed as qualifiers.
		
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I will check that our organiser intends to make sure that our roll-up comp is set up in the system as a non-qualifier. Sounds like that's all that needs to happen and we are sorted and there will be no issue or doubt about or whether or not our rollup is included in WHS.  We can make sure that it isn't.


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## Springveldt (Sep 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and so if our rollup comps are *not *considered qualifying rounds then any rollup handicap adjustment is irrelevant.

Note that the handicap adjustment we apply is nothing to do with the score the players shoot.  So for example I can play to any number over my handicap (the number is irrelevant) yet win the rollup.  The winners handicap is cut 0.1 for every £1 won - so if I win say £16 from the roll-up pot then I get cut 1.6 off my exact club handicap.  So in effect 2 shots.  Such handicap adjustments could never be included in a handicap index calculation.
		
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Sorry, when I said handicap adjustment I was meaning your CONGU handicap. I would assume only scores that are marked as qualifiers (and thus your CONGU handicap gets adjusted) will count towards your initial WHS index.


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## rosecott (Sep 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I will check that our organiser intends to make sure that our roll-up comp is set up in the system as a non-qualifier. Sounds like that's all that needs to happen and we are sorted and there will be no issue or doubt about or whether or not our rollup is included in WHS.  We can make sure that it isn't.
		
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I would be interested to know how your handicap/competition software copes with your "unofficial" handicap adjustments.


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## rulefan (Sep 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Is the important word that which I have highlighted.  So if the handicap Committee does *not *consider a member entering our roll-up as pre-registering then the rollup comp remains a non-qualifier.  *The fact that we use the club system to run our rollup comp is therefore irrelevant.*

Click to expand...

Provided the competition has been set up correctly

_Rule 2.1 a (iii) Last paragraph_ only relates to WHS. It is not a CONGU option.


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## rulefan (Sep 7, 2020)

Springveldt said:



			That's what I was getting at, obviously in a poor way. 

I've just calculated my initial WHS index which comes out at 7.6 *if the CSS is used (I believe this is what is being used)* or 7.7 if it's the course rating. I think that gives me a course handicap of 9 for my course depending on how the rounding is done for course handicap. My course has a slope of 139 so the course rating index of 7.7 works out at 9.47, *if that is rounded to the nearest whole number then it is 9, *but if they round to 1 decimal place first, then to the nearest number it would be 10 (9.5 to 1 dp, then 10 to whole number). CSS based index of 7.6 gives me a course handicap of 9 which is the same as my current CONGU handicap of 9.1

I've got a differential of 8.2 dropping off with my next round but the next counting differential doesn't drop off for 5 rounds (which is a 5.7 so I need a really good round there), so I've got a few rounds to get a decent score in again. Going to be interesting with this new system if you are tracking your handicap as some weeks will feel like you have a free shot at lowering your handicap with no risk of going up, others will feel like you need a good round if one of your best differentials are about to fall off.
		
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Yes and yes


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 7, 2020)

rosecott said:



			I would be interested to know how your handicap/competition software copes with your "unofficial" handicap adjustments.
		
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I don't know.  Before starting to enter our score we can check and adjust as necessary our handicap.  But does that flow through to my official club handicap record?  I don't know tbh.  If it did it would make a mess of things - but if the software knows that the comp is a non-qualifier maybe it just ignores any handicap adjustment I might make before entering my score - as well as ignoring my final score.  I am guessing that that is what happens (we use Intelligent Golf)


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## jim8flog (Sep 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I don't know.  Before starting to enter our score we can check and adjust as necessary our handicap.  But does that flow through to my official club handicap record?  I don't know tbh.  If it did it would make a mess of things - but if the software knows that the comp is a non-qualifier maybe it just ignores any handicap adjustment I might make before entering my score - as well as ignoring my final score.  I am guessing that that is what happens (we use Intelligent Golf)
		
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Within Intelligent Golf you can adjust the players handicap for the purposes of that round only. This would normally be done either by the person entering the cards manually or the person checking it all before the comp is finalised.


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## jim8flog (Sep 7, 2020)

rosecott said:



			I would be interested to know how your handicap/competition software copes with your "unofficial" handicap adjustments.
		
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 see post 854


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 7, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Within Intelligent Golf you can adjust the players handicap for the purposes of that round only. This would normally be done either by the person entering the cards manually or the person checking it all before the comp is finalised.
		
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I guess that is what we do individually when we can check and adjust our handicap before we start entering our score.  And as the comp is set up as a non-Q it doesn't flow through to our club handicap record.


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## jim8flog (Sep 7, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I'm back contemplating WHS again....

Does anyone know if much analysis has been done to compare current handicaps with anticipated new WHS ones?
		
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I did a few mates (10 to 20 handicap) based upon gross differential and most Course Handicaps were within a shot (all a slight increase, me included).

I also looked at the worst player in our group, currently 36 looks like going out to 46.


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## rosecott (Sep 7, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			see post 854
		
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I can't check at the moment but I'm pretty sure in Handicapmaster you can reduce the playing handicap for the competition you are processing but you cannot increase it.


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## rulefan (Sep 7, 2020)

rosecott said:



			I can't check at the moment but I'm pretty sure in Handicapmaster you can reduce the playing handicap for the competition you are processing but you cannot increase it.
		
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Is this the sort of situation you would use it for?

23.9
The Handicap Committee or other body organising a competition at a club which is not the
player’s Home Club may, if it considers that his handicap is too high, reduce that handicap.
Any reduction made under this clause shall apply only to the competition for which it is made.


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## Carpfather1 (Sep 7, 2020)

Could someone advise me where to look to find the slope rating for  my home course please?just so I can work out my whs hcap (well ish)


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## IanM (Sep 7, 2020)

47.2 Just go and play.  

75.3c Use the computer and tables

77.6g. Putting numbers before a sentence doesn't make it any more authoritative.

🤣  sorry, thought it was time to attempt satire


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## mikejohnchapman (Sep 7, 2020)

Carpfather1 said:



			Could someone advise me where to look to find the slope rating for  my home course please?just so I can work out my whs hcap (well ish)
		
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https://ncrdb.usga.org/


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## rosecott (Sep 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Is this the sort of situation you would use it for?

23.9
The Handicap Committee or other body organising a competition at a club which is not the
player’s Home Club may, if it considers that his handicap is too high, reduce that handicap.
Any reduction made under this clause shall apply only to the competition for which it is made.
		
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Not really, more for:
players who have entered a handicap on the card which is lower than the actual handicap.
players who have played Away better than handicap but no result reached CDH


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## rulefan (Sep 7, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Not really, more for:
players who have entered a handicap on the card which is lower than the actual handicap.
		
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Wouldn't this only be for competition result. The correct handicap should be used for handicap purposes

*Appendix P*
_Score entered on card on a hole is lower than actual premeditated score - Accept adjusted score unless breach_




			players who have played Away better than handicap but no result reached CDH
		
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Not sure why you enter a lower handicap for this situation


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## Gowferdee (Sep 7, 2020)

How do I go about getting my first handicap - do I have to join a golf club? Tend to play variety of courses, not sure if joining a club is the _only_ way.


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## rosecott (Sep 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Wouldn't this only be for competition result. The correct handicap should be used for handicap purposes

*Appendix P*
_Score entered on card on a hole is lower than actual premeditated score - Accept adjusted score unless breach_


Not sure why you enter a lower handicap for this situation
		
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First point - yes, I do know that.

Second point - the handicap that the software will show is that prior to any adjustment necessary from an Away score which merits a reduction.

My original point was that the software will allow the current handicap held in the database to be reduced but not increased. If the roll up rules involve reductions and increases - and many do - the software could not handle increases.


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## rosecott (Sep 7, 2020)

Gowferdee said:



			How do I go about getting my first handicap - do I have to join a golf club? Tend to play variety of courses, not sure if joining a club is the _only_ way.
		
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Simple answer - yes, you must be a member of an affiliated club.


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## Gowferdee (Sep 7, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Simple answer - yes, you must be a member of an affiliated club.
		
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thanks might get winter membership, local club doing one for 100 quid from nov


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## Springveldt (Sep 8, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Have now found an improving low-handicap guy who's also going to get cut. Gonna be scratch, fair play to him.

Is it just looking like cat 1 players might be getting cut? My sample size definitely isn't big enough!
		
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I’m cat 2, currently 9.1. As it stands just now my WHS index will be 7.6 but my course handicap will be 9. 

I guess that’s a cut since your index is your handicap. 

I’m also pretty good at hitting my buffer, I’ve been buffer or better in 11 of my last 20 rounds. I usually have 3 bad shots a round that kill any hope of getting a cut.


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## rulefan (Sep 8, 2020)

Springveldt said:



			I’m cat 2, currently 9.1. As it stands just now my WHS index will be 7.6 but my course handicap will be 9.
		
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Do you only ever play at one course from the same tees all the time?
Your course handicap will vary from course to course and from white tees to yellow tees etc.


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## Springveldt (Sep 8, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Do you only ever play at one course from the same tees all the time?
Your course handicap will vary from course to course and from white tees to yellow tees etc.
		
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For qualifiers yes, I only ever play the one course from the white tees. Should have said "home course handicap" rather than "course handicap". 

I'm aware that my course handicap will change, that's why I was saying I've basically had a cut if my WHS index is 7.6 while my CONGU is 9.1

Currently it doesn't matter what course/tees I play, I'm a 9 handicap no matter what but under WHS I could play a course/tees that is 113 slope and I'll be an 8 rather than the 9 I am now.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 8, 2020)

rosecott said:



			First point - yes, I do know that.

Second point - the handicap that the software will show is that prior to any adjustment necessary from an Away score which merits a reduction.

My original point was that the software will allow the current handicap held in the database to be reduced but not increased. If the roll up rules involve reductions and increases - and many do - the software could not handle increases.
		
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Our rollup only involves reductions in handicap - other than the one time in the year that they are reset to the club handicap (end of summer competitive season usually after first weekend in Nov).  Idea is to reduce the likelihood of any one individual winning repeatedly - if someone does - then they will get cut then cut again as necessary and eventually they stop winning


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## jim8flog (Sep 8, 2020)

Gowferdee said:



			thanks might get winter membership, local club doing one for 100 quid from nov
		
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You only retain the handicap whilst you remain a member of an affiliated golf club so at the end of winter membership if you do not take out full membership you will no longer have a handicap.


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## rulefan (Sep 8, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Our rollup only involves reductions in handicap - other than the one time in the year that they are reset to the club handicap (end of summer competitive season usually after first weekend in Nov).  Idea is to reduce the likelihood of any one individual winning repeatedly - if someone does - then they will get cut then cut again as necessary and eventually they stop winning 

Click to expand...

Ah. Got it now, your rollups do not involve CONGU at all.
Do you or the organisers propose to get Committee approval for them to be authorised for WHS?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 17, 2020)

Had to miss out the Q&A session of our WHS briefing by the club last night but no doubt status of our rollup will have been asked.

I also missed whether there will be a cap on the increase from current handicap to handicap index. Just simply looking at my best 8 from last 20 - without exaggeration my scoring reflects that of a 16 handicapper not someone off 9.  Could I actually go up that much?


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## 2blue (Sep 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Had to miss out the Q&A session of our WHS briefing by the club last night but no doubt status of our rollup will have been asked.

I also missed whether there will be a cap on the increase from current handicap to handicap index. Just simply looking at my best 8 from last 20 - without exaggeration my scoring reflects that of a 16 handicapper not someone off 9.  Could I actually go up that much?
		
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I've heard that 'caps' will be applied but I'm unclear on how far back they go to find the lowest h/cap to apply. Will it be back to Jan 2019 or the extended Jan 2018?


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## rulefan (Sep 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I also missed whether there will be a cap on the increase from current handicap to handicap index. Just simply looking at my best 8 from last 20 - without exaggeration my scoring reflects that of a 16 handicapper not someone off 9.  Could I actually go up that much?
		
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My understanding (but not confirmed) is that the whole process will take each individual score since 2018 (not just the last 20) and apply the full WHS process to them sequentially. So any soft or hard cap will be applied. In addition, your handicap committee will be able to review and adjust an individual's awarded index.


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## 2blue (Sep 17, 2020)

rulefan said:



			My understanding (but not confirmed) is that the whole process will take each individual score since 2018 (not just the last 20) and apply the full WHS process to them sequentially. So any soft or hard cap will be applied. In addition, *your handicap committee will be able to review and adjust an individual's awarded index*.
		
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Thanks, are we likely to know when/if it will be confirmed & whether we'll be receiving advice on what criteria to use when Committees review the awarded indexes? Gonna be a 'fun' time until things settle down.


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## Junior (Sep 17, 2020)

rulefan said:



			My understanding (but not confirmed) is that the whole process will take each individual score since 2018 (not just the last 20) and apply the full WHS process to them sequentially. So any soft or hard cap will be applied. In addition, your handicap committee will be able to review and adjust an individual's awarded index.
		
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Firstly,  thanks for your input on this thread.  I've learnt a lot from your posts 

Just a question re the above, I heard that the initial calculation was going to be systematic using the database of individual (handicap qualifying) scores that each club has on each player.  Ie.  Every recorded score on IG or HDID ?  Committee's can then make adjustments they see fit.  Is this your understanding also ?

Also, for the calculation, I presume NR's in any qualifying score will be recorded as a nett double bogey ?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 17, 2020)

rulefan said:



			My understanding (but not confirmed) is that the whole process will take each individual score since 2018 (not just the last 20) and apply the full WHS process to them sequentially. So any soft or hard cap will be applied. In addition, your handicap committee will be able to review and adjust an individual's awarded index.
		
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Hmmm. My 2019 golf was not a lot better as I didn’t play any qualifiers whatsoever until July...and then after 6 months without, my golf was rubbish.

I am good at playing multiple rubbish rounds in a row each having me drift up 0.1 then I throw in a goodie and I get cut 0.4 or 0.6...then back to playing rubbish and 0.1s - then another goodie...


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## mikejohnchapman (Sep 17, 2020)

rulefan said:



			My understanding (but not confirmed) is that the whole process will take each individual score since 2018 (not just the last 20) and apply the full WHS process to them sequentially. So any soft or hard cap will be applied. In addition, your handicap committee will be able to review and adjust an individual's awarded index.
		
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Really? why would they do that?

We have lots of players who have been putting in qualifying and supplementary scores since lockdown and have 20+ scores to populate their playing records. Why go back to 2018 when it's not necessary?

I think by far a bigger issue is the use of default CR & SR where they can't establish the tees used to register a score. Should the tee not be clearly identifiable then the Course Rating will be equal to SSS and the slope will be allocated at 125.

We have been told by the county our handicap committee won't get to see the handicaps until late October so will have no real chance of review and by the sound of it little understanding of the basis for the calculation. Thanks WHS!

Beginning to think this process isn't very good.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 17, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Really? why would they do that?

We have lots of players who have been putting in qualifying and supplementary scores since lockdown and have 20+ scores to populate their playing records. Why go back to 2018 when it's not necessary?

I think by far a bigger issue is the use of default CR & SR where they can't establish the tees used to register a score. Should the tee not be clearly identifiable then the Course Rating will be equal to SSS and the slope will be allocated at 125.

We have been told by the county our handicap committee won't get to see the handicaps until late October so will have no real chance of review and by the sound of it little understanding of the basis for the calculation. Thanks WHS!

Beginning to think this process isn't very good.
		
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In terms of still going back to 2018, if they do, I can see that being important in terms of at least applying soft and hard caps. Otherwise, for example, a single figure handicapper could have submitted 20 scores in last couple of months, played awful, and get an Index of 20+.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 17, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			In terms of still going back to 2018, if they do, I can see that being important in terms of at least applying soft and hard caps. Otherwise, for example, a single figure handicapper could have submitted 20 scores in last couple of months, played awful, and get an Index of 20+.
		
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My circumstances...albeit over a longer period.


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## mikejohnchapman (Sep 17, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			In terms of still going back to 2018, if they do, I can see that being important in terms of at least applying soft and hard caps. Otherwise, for example, a single figure handicapper could have submitted 20 scores in last couple of months, played awful, and get an Index of 20+.
		
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But if they have played "20 scores in the last couple of months" why go back to 2018. The Caps apply to the lowest point in the last 12 months and as there were few qualifiers over last winter going back further is largely irrelevant.

If they gave us time the handicap committees can look at out-of-line situations without getting inundated.


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## mikejohnchapman (Sep 17, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My circumstances...albeit over a longer period.
		
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I'm not sure what point you are making. WHS is supposed to reflect how you are playing now - not your best period a couple of years ago. If you cannot play to your UHS handicap now and keep going up by 0.1 surely it should be reset to a more realistic level?


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## Swango1980 (Sep 17, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			But if they have played "20 scores in the last couple of months" why go back to 2018. The Caps apply to the lowest point in the last 12 months and as there were few qualifiers over last winter going back further is largely irrelevant.

If they gave us time the handicap committees can look at out-of-line situations without getting inundated.
		
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Although a hard and soft cap looks back 1 year into the past, that handicap 1 year in the past would have had to be worked out based on scores before that.

So, a player has played 20 rounds since 2nd November 2019 (or just a bit before, depending on when Indexes will actually be set). Played terrible (most of rounds may have been played back end of this year due to winter and then lockdown). Their Index comes out as 25. Their CONGU handicap is 10.

However, had the 20 scores been taken before November 2019, their Index may have come out as 8.0 on the date of 2nd November 2019. So, despite having a terrible 2019, their Index calculated on 2nd November 2020 would be 13.0, not 25.0, due to hard cap.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 17, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I'm not sure what point you are making. WHS is supposed to reflect how you are playing now - not your best period a couple of years ago. If you cannot play to your UHS handicap now and keep going up by 0.1 surely it should be reset to a more realistic level?
		
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I am not making any point.  I asked if there was any cap on the amount a current handicap can go up (or down) when Handicap Index is calculated.  My scoring over the last 20 rounds - or indeed since 2018 - has been haphazard as much of the time I have been trying out new things - and as a result my scoring has often been very rubbish.  However because of the way the current h/c system works I have managed to maintain my handicap at 8 (currently it has slipped up to 8.6 so it's 9).

Now - I have just looked online at my last 20 scores - and the average of my best 8 from last 20 is ...exactly 9.0 over gross against par 72...

I would never, ever have guessed that,


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## mikejohnchapman (Sep 17, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Although a hard and soft cap looks back 1 year into the past, that handicap 1 year in the past would have had to be worked out based on scores before that.

So, a player has played 20 rounds since 2nd November 2019 (or just a bit before, depending on when Indexes will actually be set). Played terrible (most of rounds may have been played back end of this year due to winter and then lockdown). Their Index comes out as 25. Their CONGU handicap is 10.

However, had the 20 scores been taken before November 2019, their Index may have come out as 8.0 on the date of 2nd November 2019. So, despite having a terrible 2019, their Index calculated on 2nd November 2020 would be 13.0, not 25.0, due to hard cap.
		
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OK we are going to have to disagree on this one i'm afraid.

If the new system spits out a 25 HI for a Cat 2 player I don't need a hard cap to show this needs looking at in detail.

If they have played 20 QUALIFYING rounds since November I suspect the majority will be post-lockdown when conditions were good. Yes some may have been impacted by bad weather but they would be part of the 12 not the 8!

I can only see 2 reasons you would get such an extreme result; injury or manipulation - in both cases it would need to be reviewed by the HC anyway.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 17, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			OK we are going to have to disagree on this one i'm afraid.

If the new system spits out a 25 HI for a Cat 2 player I don't need a hard cap to show this needs looking at in detail.

If they have played 20 QUALIFYING rounds since November I suspect the majority will be post-lockdown when conditions were good. Yes some may have been impacted by bad weather but they would be part of the 12 not the 8!

I can only see 2 reasons you would get such an extreme result; injury or manipulation - in both cases it would need to be reviewed by the HC anyway.
		
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It would. However, you could say that about the WHS at any stage. If a low handicapper ended up having their handicap quickly going up an extra 10 shots or so, the handicap committee would need to review it, without the need of the soft and hard caps being used.

So, if you are purely going to rely on handicap committees to spot any handicaps going up too rapidly and taking action, what is the point in having a soft and hard cap at all? When we get our first WHS handicaps, they might as well be calculated as closely as possible to the way they'd be calculated at any point in the future. And that includes the soft and hard caps.


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## Bdill93 (Sep 17, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			It would. However, you could say that about the WHS at any stage. If a low handicapper ended up having their handicap quickly going up an extra 10 shots or so, the handicap committee would need to review it, without the need of the soft and hard caps being used.

So, if you are purely going to rely on handicap committees to spot any handicaps going up too rapidly and taking action, what is the point in having a soft and hard cap at all? When we get our first WHS handicaps, they might as well be calculated as closely as possible to the way they'd be calculated at any point in the future. And that includes the soft and hard caps.
		
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Listen to the rick shiels podcast WHS episode. It makes all these things really clear.

Some players dont record 20+ rounds a year, let alone in a few months, the two year history enables the occasional club player to still have an accurate account of his handicap when he does play.

Handicaps will be "high capped" so that you cannot deviate too far (negatively) in 12 months from your handicap index. I believe it can only go up by 5 shots max - I may have misremembered this but I'm confident I havent. (eg/ I play off 19 currently, my current poor run of form may increase me up to 24 but no higher for the next 12 months).


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## Bdill93 (Sep 17, 2020)

Bdill93 said:



			Listen to the rick shiels podcast WHS episode. It makes all these things really clear.

Some players dont record 20+ rounds a year, let along in a few months, the two year history enables the occasional club player to still have an accurate account of his handicap when he does play.

Handicaps will be "high capped" so that you cannot deviate too far (negatively) in 12 months from your handicap index. I believe it can only go up by 5 shots max - I may have misremembered this but I'm confident I havent. (eg/ I play off 19 currently, my current poor run of form may increase me up to 24 but no higher for the next 12 months).
		
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Ill add - I may have quoted the wrong person here - sorry mate!


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## rulefan (Sep 17, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Really? why would they do that?

We have lots of players who have been putting in qualifying and supplementary scores since lockdown and have 20+ scores to populate their playing records. Why go back to 2018 when it's not necessary?

I think by far a bigger issue is the use of default CR & SR where they can't establish the tees used to register a score. Should the tee not be clearly identifiable then the Course Rating will be equal to SSS and the slope will be allocated at 125.

We have been told by the county our handicap committee won't get to see the handicaps until late October so will have no real chance of review and by the sound of it little understanding of the basis for the calculation. Thanks WHS!

Beginning to think this process isn't very good.
		
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_where they can't establish the tees used to register a score_

Why wouldn't they know?


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## Bdill93 (Sep 17, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			But if they have played "20 scores in the last couple of months" why go back to 2018. The Caps apply to the lowest point in the last 12 months and as there were few qualifiers over last winter going back further is largely irrelevant.

If they gave us time the handicap committees can look at out-of-line situations without getting inundated.
		
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The system wont go back to 2018 if you've had 20 scores within 3 months..... It will only go back that far if its in the last recorded/ competitive 20 rounds you've played?

If your historic "low" in the last 12 months is way off this (eg 5 capper shooting to 20), committees still can have an input so we have no bandits. Its really so simple it hurts.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 17, 2020)

Bdill93 said:



			The system wont go back to 2018 if you've had 20 scores within 3 months..... It will only go back that far if its in the last recorded/ competitive 20 rounds you've played?
		
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I think that is incorrect, based on the subject of this discussion (see post 879 by rulefan). Yes, only your last 20 scores will be used to initially work out your index, BUT scores before that will be used to set the starting points for the hard and soft caps to be utilised in that calculation. So, if your last 20 scores give you a handicap index of 20, but the 20 scores before that (after Jan 2018) would have given you a handicap of 10, then your Index would be 15, not 20, due to the hard cap.


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## jim8flog (Sep 17, 2020)

Junior said:



			Firstly,  thanks for your input on this thread.  I've learnt a lot from your posts 

Just a question re the above, I heard that the initial calculation was going to be systematic using the database of individual (handicap qualifying) scores that each club has on each player.  Ie.  Every recorded score on IG or HDID ?  Committee's can then make adjustments they see fit.  Is this your understanding also ?

Also, for the calculation, I presume NR's in any qualifying score will be recorded as a nett double bogey ?
		
Click to expand...

 It will be every recorded score on your  Central Database of Handicaps file

Re the last question it depends on what you mean. If you posted the individual scores on a hole by hole basis with one or more NRs those NRs are converted to nett double bogey. Ongoing with the WHS there will a slightly different method available depending on how many holes have been played.


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## Junior (Sep 17, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			It will be every recorded score on your  Central Database of Handicaps file

Re the last question it depends on what you mean. If you posted the individual scores on a hole by hole basis with one or more NRs those NRs are converted to nett double bogey. Ongoing with the WHS there will a slightly different method available depending on how many holes have been played.
		
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Thanks, understood re NR's.

Re the cards, so even if its a 13 hole , non qualifying competition in Winter , it will be used ?  We play off mats in Winter but the scores are still recorded on IG.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 17, 2020)

Junior said:



			Thanks, understood re NR's.

Re the cards, so even if its a 13 hole , non qualifying competition in Winter , it will be used ?  We play off mats in Winter but the scores are still recorded on IG.
		
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Only qualifying scores will count


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## Old Skier (Sep 17, 2020)

Junior said:



			Thanks, understood re NR's.

Re the cards, so even if its a 13 hole , non qualifying competition in Winter , it will be used ?  We play off mats in Winter but the scores are still recorded on IG.
		
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Scores might be recorded but they will be recorded as non qualifiers


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## jim8flog (Sep 17, 2020)

Junior said:



			Thanks, understood re NR's.

Re the cards, so even if its a 13 hole , non qualifying competition in Winter , it will be used ?  We play off mats in Winter but the scores are still recorded on IG.
		
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As already said by others if it is a non qualifier it will not count.

Using tee mats either as the teeing area or carried and used to hit off from the fairway to protect the course does not make a competition a non qualifier.


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## mikejohnchapman (Sep 17, 2020)

rulefan said:



_where they can't establish the tees used to register a score_

Why wouldn't they know?
		
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We have 6 variations on courses based on 3 nine hole loops. All are used for qualifying competitions throughout the season. They are defined in our handicap software by name as well as by tee, par & SSS. I have recently input these into the England Golf database as requested but the naming convention mandated means I couldn't match the names. Thus I struggle to see how the 2 can be reconciled.

To make things interesting - 2 of the 9s are par 36, SSS 36 and have 4 tees. However, have slightly different CR & SR.


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## 3offTheTee (Sep 18, 2020)

What happens to somebody who has not put in a competitive score since January 2019?


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## OnTour (Sep 19, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			What happens to somebody who has not put in a competitive score since January 2019?
		
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You don't have a current handicap guessing you start as before collecting scores to bring it back to LIFE again.


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## jim8flog (Sep 19, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			What happens to somebody who has not put in a competitive score since January 2019?
		
Click to expand...


 It will take account of all your scores going back to January 2018. 
If there are less than 20 in total it is not the best 8 it is an increasing scale depending on the number


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## jim8flog (Sep 19, 2020)

OnTour said:



			You don't have a current handicap guessing you start as before collecting scores to bring it back to LIFE again.
		
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Once a person has a handicap they only lose it if they are no longer a member of an affiliated club.


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## 3offTheTee (Sep 19, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Once a person has a handicap they only lose it if they are no longer a member of an affiliated club.
		
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So I said January 19 and you told me it was January 18.

If they had not put in a competitive card since January 18 from what you are saying they would have the same handicap which will PROBABLY be lower than under the new system.

There is a guy at our Club who has possibly not played competitive golf for a number of years and had an increase this year as he wrote on health grounds. Is it reasonable to expect him to retain his handicap?


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## jim8flog (Sep 19, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			So I said January 19 and you told me it was January 18.

If they had not put in a competitive card since January 18 from what you are saying they would have the same handicap which will PROBABLY be lower than under the new system.

There is a guy at our Club who has possibly not played competitive golf for a number of years and had an increase this year as he wrote on health grounds. Is it reasonable to expect him to retain his handicap?
		
Click to expand...

To confirm it is all scores since January 2018

If a person has no scores in since January 2018 there will given a Handicap Index base upon the handicap they have

Rulefan says it will be done by adding to their handicap record 3 scores equal to their handicap which means they will get a HI of 2 shots less than that.


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## jim8flog (Sep 19, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Does such a person need a handicap?
		
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Yes, even if it is just for social golf amongst their mates.  When we published that players without 3 scores since 1/1/2018 would not be given a H.I. we got quite a few complaints from players who assumed they would lose their handicap.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Sep 19, 2020)

Out of interest for our residents experts.

When looking at comp rounds what happens where the css is R/O when looking at the last 20 rounds?


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## rulefan (Sep 19, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Out of interest for our residents experts.

When looking at comp rounds what happens where the css is R/O when looking at the last 20 rounds?
		
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The transition program won't be concerned re the effect (or non effect) on the player's handicap in the CONGU round. The WHS calculation is based on the gross differential from the CSS


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## OnTour (Sep 20, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Once a person has a handicap they only lose it if they are no longer a member of an affiliated club.
		
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badly worded but that's what I meant - sitting dormant.


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## rulefan (Sep 20, 2020)

OnTour said:



			badly worded but that's what I meant - sitting dormant.
		
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But currently can only be reignited by putting in 3 qualifying scores.


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## IanMcC (Sep 23, 2020)

Quick question I couldnt answer with 100% accuracy to an enquiring member.
In the winter we will be playing 11 and 15 hole non qualifying comps at the club, using pick, clean and place, and rake and place in bunkers.
Will a player use his full Course Handicap, or 95% of this to obtain a Playing Handicap, considering it is a non qualifier and not a full round?


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## jim8flog (Sep 23, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Quick question I couldnt answer with 100% accuracy to an enquiring member.
In the winter we will be playing 11 and 15 hole non qualifying comps at the club, using pick, clean and place, and rake and place in bunkers.
Will a player use his full Course Handicap, or 95% of this to obtain a Playing Handicap, considering it is a non qualifier and not a full round?
		
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 It will be up to the club to decide as they are non qualifiers they will not be used for handicap purposes. The 95% mandatory is not used for adjusting handicaps anyway, the full course handicap is used.


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## IanMcC (Sep 23, 2020)

I understand all that. The Playing Handicap is a little bit like the Competition Handicap at the moment, which comes into play if we have Ladies in the comp, which we do on Wednesdays and Fridays. On a Wednesday the men receive 2 extra Stableford shots to create a Competition Handicap, as the SSS is 2 more than par, but the Ladies is the same as par. Would equity be affected if we only used the unadjusted Course Handicap? Will the system recognise the 2 tee comp and automatically make the adjustments as it does now, and if so, will it also automatically create the 95% playing handicap to adjust?


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## IanMcC (Sep 23, 2020)

I have read section 6.2b ii of the Rules of Handicapping manual, but frankly I dont fully understand it, and its only talking about 9 or 18 hole comps anyway.

_(ii) Stableford formats
l For an 18-hole round: The number of points required for all players to
‘play to handicap’ must be calculated from each applicable set of tees.
o Those players requiring the highest number of points to ‘play to
handicap’ receive no additional strokes to the standard calculation of
their Playing Handicap.
o All players playing from a set of tees requiring a lower number of
points to ‘play to handicap’ will receive additional strokes to their
Playing Handicap equal to the difference between the number of
points they require to ‘play to handicap’ and the highest number of
points required by other players.
Rule 6
These additional strokes are added to the player’s Playing Handicap as
follows:
Playing
Handicap
=
(Course Handicap x
handicap allowance)
+
difference in number of points
required to 'play to handicap'
(highest to lowest)
l For a 9-hole round: As a player’s total number of Stableford points for
the round is compared directly against that of every other player, no
additional strokes are applied to the standard calculation of the Playing
Handicap when the par is different between tees._


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## rulefan (Sep 23, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			The Playing Handicap is a little bit like the Competition Handicap at the moment, which comes into play if we have Ladies in the comp, which we do on Wednesdays and Fridays.
		
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Not really. It is exactly the same as the adjustment made when playing 4BBB or 4somes now (see CONGU Appendix F)



			On a Wednesday the men receive 2 extra Stableford shots to create a Competition Handicap, as the SSS is 2 more than par, but the Ladies is the same as par. Would equity be affected if we only used the unadjusted Course Handicap? Will the system recognise the 2 tee comp and automatically make the adjustments as it does now, and if so, will it also automatically create the 95% playing handicap to adjust?
		
Click to expand...

The system will make the appropriate adjustments re different tees and different genders. Remember any player's Competition Handicap is based on their individual Index and the gender specific Course Rating and Slope of the tees being used by the individual player. 

The WHS Allowance is applied to the individual player's resultant Competition Handicap


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## rulefan (Sep 23, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			I have read section 6.2b ii of the Rules of Handicapping manual, but frankly I dont fully understand it, and its only talking about 9 or 18 hole comps anyway.
		
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I think you may have an old version of the Rules

Mine says


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## IanMcC (Sep 23, 2020)

So, to answer the member's question, they only need to worry about Course Handicap. Any further adjustments will be handled by ClubV1, similarly, but not exactly like, Competition Handicaps are created now. Is this correct?

Additionally, that text above is exactly what I posted. I only posted the part about Stableford comps though.


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## rulefan (Sep 23, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			So, to answer the member's question, they only need to worry about Course Handicap. Any further adjustments will be handled by ClubV1, similarly, but not exactly like, Competition Handicaps are created now. Is this correct?
		
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That is what I am told but it may depend on whether the player is using the ISV software to make his entry or simply returning a card on completion. The boards or notices showing the conversion from HI to CH will not show Allowances.


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## IanMcC (Sep 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			That is what I am told but it may depend on whether the player is using the ISV software to make his entry or simply returning a card on completion. The boards or notices showing the conversion from HI to CH will not show Allowances.
		
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Thanks for this. 
Do you think a box for Playing Handicap should be on the new Scorecards or not? I have designed our new cards with such a box, but if the system generates all of the adjustments from CH to PH, then is it relevant at all, or will it just confuse people further?


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## Swango1980 (Sep 23, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Thanks for this.
Do you think a box for Playing Handicap should be on the new Scorecards or not? I have designed our new cards with such a box, but if the system generates all of the adjustments from CH to PH, then is it relevant at all, or will it just confuse people further?
		
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We've included them in our design, and I read somewhere in the guidance that it is recommended there are boxes for Index, Course and Playing handicaps for clarity.


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## IanMcC (Sep 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			We've included them in our design, and I read somewhere in the guidance that it is recommended there are boxes for Index, Course and Playing handicaps for clarity.
		
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Could you point me towards that guidance, please, if you remember where it is?


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## IanMcC (Sep 23, 2020)

My only concern with adding the Playing Handicap box is that, yes, people can know that it is 95% for a singles comp, but if it is a 2 tee comp with Ladies and Gents playing, there will probably be a further adjustment to obtain true Playing Handicaps.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 23, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Could you point me towards that guidance, please, if you remember where it is?
		
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Yes. There was a document: "Guidance on the WHS Rules of handicapping as Applied within GB&I", which provides additional information relevant to us.

On Pg10, G2.1b/1 Handicap on Scorecard, it states:

"Whilst not mandatory, CONGU recommend that space for the Handicap Index and Playing Handicap is also on the scorecard"


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## Swango1980 (Sep 23, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			My only concern with adding the Playing Handicap box is that, yes, people can know that it is 95% for a singles comp, but if it is a 2 tee comp with Ladies and Gents playing, there will probably be a further adjustment to obtain true Playing Handicaps.
		
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However, if there was any further adjustment, would you not just apply that anyway, and put it in the Playing handicap? Playing Handicap is not necessarily always 95% of Course Handicap


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## rulefan (Sep 23, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Additionally, that text above is exactly what I posted. I only posted the part about Stableford comps though.
		
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Sorry. I was trying to compare the format in your post with the format in the manual and my pdf and they didn't seem to match


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## IanMcC (Sep 23, 2020)

Yes, that is my point. A player may fill in the box with 95% of his CH, thinking he is doing me a favour, but once ClubV1 gets a hold of his score the Playing Handicap will be wrong if Ladies are in the field. The next paragraph of the text you pointed out hints at this:

_For multi-tee or mixed-tee competitions the Handicap Allowance may include additional strokes for players who play from the tees with the higher Course Ratings. Players should be aware that under these circumstances any additional strokes they receive could affect when they pick up on a hole in certain formats, for example Stableford or Par/Bogey. _

So, if it is probably going to be incorrect, and the software will correct any mistakes, to my mind it is best not there. There is no space on the card at the moment for Competition Handicap, for example. I'm pretty confused at the moment.


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## IanMcC (Sep 23, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			It will be up to the club to decide as they are non qualifiers they will not be used for handicap purposes. The 95% mandatory is not used for adjusting handicaps anyway, the full course handicap is used.
		
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Just received this reply back from Wales Golf. Its is consistent with what you say, but doesnt really help me decide if Playing Handicap or Course Handicap should be used in Winter 15 hole comps, and hints at maybe the software not doing the correct conversions also:

_The handicapping system won’t cater for the issues below. The handicapping system is designed around 9 and 18 hole competition golf, anything beyond (non-qualifying competition) is completely down to the club discretion to run along with any associated rules or shot allowances. I can’t really offer any further guidance that because there is none out there._

_The only advise I can potentially give is that applying the playing handicap might help create consistency between qualifying competitions and your non-qualifying comps._

_Kind regards_

I hope the software comes out in time to have an experiment with it before our Winter comps start!!


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## Swango1980 (Sep 23, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Yes, that is my point. A player may fill in the box with 95% of his CH, thinking he is doing me a favour, but once ClubV1 gets a hold of his score the Playing Handicap will be wrong if Ladies are in the field. The next paragraph of the text you pointed out hints at this:

_For multi-tee or mixed-tee competitions the Handicap Allowance may include additional strokes for players who play from the tees with the higher Course Ratings. Players should be aware that under these circumstances any additional strokes they receive could affect when they pick up on a hole in certain formats, for example Stableford or Par/Bogey. _

So, if it is probably going to be incorrect, and the software will correct any mistakes, to my mind it is best not there. There is no space on the card at the moment for Competition Handicap, for example. I'm pretty confused at the moment.
		
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The playing handicap will be important in the sense it will help the player know what they are getting in the actual competition (I guess Competition Handicap is same as Playing Handicap?). It will be up to them to know how to work that out, or be guided by someone else (or the software) if overly complicated.

In terms of handicapping, however, players need to be aware that if they can no longer score on a hole based on their Playing Handicap, they may still be able to "score" based on their Course Handicap. So, they shouldn't necessarily just pick their ball up, as this could effect their handicap calculation (i.e. Player has Course Handicap of 18 and Playing Handicap of 17, if they pick up after they miss their bogey putt for a point on SI 18, their score for handicap would be a triple bogey, rather than a double bogey had they putted out.


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## rulefan (Sep 23, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			The playing handicap will be important in the sense it will help the player know what they are getting in the actual competition (I guess Competition Handicap is same as Playing Handicap?). It will be up to them to know how to work that out, or be guided by someone else (or the software) if overly complicated.

In terms of handicapping, however, players need to be aware that if they can no longer score on a hole based on their Playing Handicap, they may still be able to "score" based on their Course Handicap. So, they shouldn't necessarily just pick their ball up, as this could effect their handicap calculation (i.e. Player has Course Handicap of 18 and Playing Handicap of 17, if they pick up after they miss their bogey putt for a point on SI 18, their score for handicap would be a triple bogey, rather than a double bogey had they putted out.
		
Click to expand...

The Clause you mentioned above makes a specific point on this.

_G2.1b/1 
For multi-tee or mixed-tee competitions the Handicap Allowance may include additional strokes for players who play from the tees with the higher Course Ratings. Players should be aware that under these circumstances any additional strokes they receive could affect when they pick up on a hole in certain formats, for example Stableford or Par/Bogey. _


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## doublebogey7 (Sep 23, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Just received this reply back from Wales Golf. Its is consistent with what you say, but doesnt really help me decide if Playing Handicap or Course Handicap should be used in Winter 15 hole comps, and hints at maybe the software not doing the correct conversions also:

_The handicapping system won’t cater for the issues below. The handicapping system is designed around 9 and 18 hole competition golf, anything beyond (non-qualifying competition) is completely down to the club discretion to run along with any associated rules or shot allowances. I can’t really offer any further guidance that because there is none out there._

_The only advise I can potentially give is that applying the playing handicap might help create consistency between qualifying competitions and your non-qualifying comps._

_Kind regards_

I hope the software comes out in time to have an experiment with it before our Winter comps start!!
		
Click to expand...

The current handicapping software is also not designed around 15 hole competitions,  so are you using it at the moment, if so no real change in how you use it going forward.  I would suggest you ought to use the playing handicap calculation in such competitions as this is how the WHS is designed to provide equity.


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## rulefan (Sep 23, 2020)

IanMcC

I agree with db7; use the playing handicap. Incidentally do you you currently use 15/18 of handicap?


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## Swango1980 (Sep 23, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The Clause you mentioned above makes a specific point on this.

_G2.1b/1 
For multi-tee or mixed-tee competitions the Handicap Allowance may include additional strokes for players who play from the tees with the higher Course Ratings. Players should be aware that under these circumstances any additional strokes they receive could affect when they pick up on a hole in certain formats, for example Stableford or Par/Bogey. _

Click to expand...

Yeah, that is why I mentioned that point, as the comment I was replying to also made reference to this statement


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## IanMcC (Sep 24, 2020)

rulefan said:



			IanMcC

I agree with db7; use the playing handicap. Incidentally do you you currently use 15/18 of handicap?
		
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The 15 hole comps are only in the Winter. No, we have never used 15/18ths of handicap.


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## balaclava (Sep 24, 2020)

I came back this country in 2005 from Southern Africa where I had played all my golf (never played golf in the UK).   I joined my local Club and I was shocked by two aspects of golf here - the overwhelming percentage of medal to Stableford games and the CONGU HC system and my first post on this forum was to that effect.  So what you ask?
The response I got back then clearly indicated that the majority on here believed that 1. All other countries has the same HC system   2. Medal predominated over Stableford because that was necessary for HC purposes.  So what you ask again?
I have just seen a demo on the WHC system by Intelligent golf and it looks like this system (WHCS) is the same HC system I played in southern Africa which (loosely) was the best diffs on the best 8 games from the last 20 (the last 20 x 18 holes anywhere including social games).  So what you ask for a third time?
Having lived in umpteen countries before returning here I was shocked at how we (English) believe we invented it (everything) and we know best!  Up you CONGU


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## Swango1980 (Sep 24, 2020)

balaclava said:



			I came back this country in 2005 from Southern Africa where I had played all my golf (never played golf in the UK).   I joined my local Club and I was shocked by two aspects of golf here - the overwhelming percentage of medal to Stableford games and the CONGU HC system and my first post on this forum was to that effect.  So what you ask?
The response I got back then clearly indicated that the majority on here believed that *1. All other countries has the same HC system* *  2. Medal predominated over Stableford because that was necessary for HC purposes.*  So what you ask again?
I have just seen a demo on the WHC system by Intelligent golf and it looks like this system (WHCS) is the same HC system I played in southern Africa which (loosely) was the best diffs on the best 8 games from the last 20 (the last 20 x 18 holes anywhere including social games).  So what you ask for a third time?
Having lived in umpteen countries before returning here I was shocked at how we (English) believe we invented it (everything) and we know best!  Up you CONGU 

Click to expand...

1. Never heard anyone think every country uses the same system. Either people were aware that wasn't the case, or they didn't really care as it didn't impact them (which is fine, just like I wouldn't be bothered if a South African though the UK used their system or not)
2. I've been playing since 2005, most comps are actually Stableford at my club, so I'm not sure who would think this. Anyone who has played Stableford will know their handicap can be adjusted, and therefore would know medal golf is not the only format suitable for handicaps. So, anyone who thinks that is either at a club who ONLY play medals and they are none the wiser, or someone that plays few comps, only happened to play in medal, and didn't realise stableford counted.

3. We know best? There are advantages and disadvantages of any system. Obviously England Golf think there is merit in moving to WHS, as I'm sure it hasn't been without huge effort and cost to switch systems. I'm sure there has been debate for years whether any benefit of a World Handicap System would be worth the cost and effort involved in getting there. It has finally happened, but the big test is when it goes live and golfers have a year or 2 to get used to it.


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## rulefan (Sep 24, 2020)

balaclava said:



			I came back this country in 2005 from Southern Africa where I had played all my golf (never played golf in the UK).   I joined my local Club and I was shocked by two aspects of golf here - the overwhelming percentage of medal to Stableford games and the CONGU HC system and my first post on this forum was to that effect.  So what you ask?
The response I got back then clearly indicated that the majority on here believed that 1. All other countries has the same HC system   2. Medal predominated over Stableford because that was necessary for HC purposes.  So what you ask again?
I have just seen a demo on the WHC system by Intelligent golf and it looks like this system (WHCS) is the same HC system I played in southern Africa which (loosely) was the best diffs on the best 8 games from the last 20 (the last 20 x 18 holes anywhere including social games).  So what you ask for a third time?
Having lived in umpteen countries before returning here I was shocked at how we (English) believe we invented it (everything) and we know best!  Up you CONGU 

Click to expand...

It may be of interest to know that the first formal handicap system is generally accepted to be that introduced in England in 1898 by members of Royal Wimbledon GC and primarily the Ladies Golf Union (of Great Britain & Ireland). In 1905 it was proposed to the Metropolitan Golf Association that the then British system of averaging be adopted. That was followed by another prominent golf association of the period, the Massachusetts Golf Association.

Further, that use of the two major pre-WHS handicap formats was split between CONGU style (the whole of Europe) and US style (USA and Australia). Smaller golfing areas including Argentina and South Africa used variants of one or the other.


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## jim8flog (Sep 24, 2020)

balaclava said:



			2. Medal predominated over Stableford because that was necessary for HC purposes.  

Click to expand...

I do not understand why it is necessary to have medal over stableford for handicap purposes, They both work well for HC purposes.   More likely it is because some see it as more of a challenge.

Our comps are roughly on the basis of 4 Stablefords to one medal and since coming out of lockdown the only medals have been club championships.


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## rulefan (Sep 24, 2020)

In England last year 43% of qualifiers were played as Medals and 49% as Stableford.


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## Bwgan (Sep 24, 2020)

When courses are rated, I'm guessing each hole is rated and then calculated to give a course rating.  
Therefore will each hole have a difficulty rating, and therefore a new SI assigned? (possibly?)


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## jim8flog (Sep 24, 2020)

Bwgan said:



			When courses are rated, I'm guessing each hole is rated and then calculated to give a course rating. 
Therefore will each hole have a difficulty rating, and therefore a new SI assigned? (possibly?)
		
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 It is the club that sets the SIs.  There is a laid down procedure in The Rules of Handicapping and the club does not have to change what it has set already.


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## rulefan (Sep 24, 2020)

Bwgan said:



			When courses are rated, I'm guessing each hole is rated and then calculated to give a course rating.
Therefore will each hole have a difficulty rating, and therefore a new SI assigned? (possibly?)
		
Click to expand...

There is no decree/mandate in the WHS which replaces any of the many methods used to establish the allocation of Stroke Indices.
However there is a recommendation in the Rules which relies on hole-by-hole data from the Course Rating procedure.
My club is studying the effect on our course.


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## Bwgan (Sep 24, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			It is the club that sets the SIs.  There is a laid down procedure in The Rules of Handicapping and the club does not have to change what it has set already.
		
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Why i was asking was, out of interest I took all the comps this year and actually worked out the holes actual playing difficulty.  Most of them were good, a couple holes different to their actual SI (and i'm sure if I did another years worth of data it would get closer).  However 2 holes were way adrift playing +4 easier on SI and -5 on SI more difficult.  Me I would just swap the holes SI's around (they are both on the back 9).  I was hoping WHS might sort...


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## Swango1980 (Sep 24, 2020)

Bwgan said:



			Why i was asking was, out of interest I took all the comps this year and actually worked out the holes actual playing difficulty.  Most of them were good, a couple holes different to their actual SI (and i'm sure if I did another years worth of data it would get closer).  However 2 holes were way adrift playing +4 easier on SI and -5 on SI more difficult.  Me I would just swap the holes SI's around (they are both on the back 9).  I was hoping WHS might sort...
		
Click to expand...

SI's are not strictly set based on absolute hole difficulty. Difficulty is a primary factor, but they are meant to be spread out, and avoid low stroke indexes on 1st hole (and 10th potentially). This is because their main purpose is for Match Play, and indicating when players get shots. Spreading them out ensures the shot holes are spread out, and avoiding a low index on the first is to help avoid someone of a marginally higher handicap getting a shot on a play off hole.

Although, I understand there may be new recommendations?


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## rulefan (Sep 24, 2020)

Bwgan said:



			I was hoping WHS might sort...
		
Click to expand...

There are presently two major ways clubs in CONGU allocate SIs. The 'old' way - based on difficulty and the new - based on significance of position in match play.
The WHS recommendation is a little more complex but aims to reconcile both aims.

All the CONGU ISV software will give you an historical playing/scoring difficulty. WHS approaches it objectively by using difficulty from from the Course Rating data and then strategically allocating the Indices to triads of six holes.


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## Ethan (Sep 24, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			SI's are not strictly set based on absolute hole difficulty. Difficulty is a primary factor, but they are meant to be spread out, and avoid low stroke indexes on 1st hole (and 10th potentially). This is because their main purpose is for Match Play, and indicating when players get shots. Spreading them out ensures the shot holes are spread out, and avoiding a low index on the first is to help avoid someone of a marginally higher handicap getting a shot on a play off hole.

Although, I understand there may be new recommendations?
		
Click to expand...

On a side note, wouldn't it be more sensible to allocate shpts on the holes where your handicap differs? You are a 8 handicap and your opponent is 12. Wouldn't it be better to give the shots on SI 9-12?


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## jim8flog (Sep 24, 2020)

Ethan said:



			On a side note, wouldn't it be more sensible to allocate shpts on the holes where your handicap differs? You are a 8 handicap and your opponent is 12. Wouldn't it be better to give the shots on SI 9-12?
		
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 This is something I have advocated for  years. It gets rid of all this stupid messing around with SIs and stops meaning that the 8 handicap player, as now, is expected to shoot the hardest holes on the course in fewer shots than the 12 handicapper.

It is the old trouble of "we have always done it that way"


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## Green Man (Sep 24, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			SI's are not strictly set based on absolute hole difficulty. Difficulty is a primary factor, but they are meant to be spread out, and avoid low stroke indexes on 1st hole (and 10th potentially). This is because their main purpose is for Match Play, and indicating when players get shots. Spreading them out ensures the shot holes are spread out, and avoiding a low index on the first is to help avoid someone of a marginally higher handicap getting a shot on a play off hole.

Although, I understand there may be new recommendations?
		
Click to expand...

On our course the first three holes have SI 4,2 then 6. Making it hard again for the poor low handicappers.


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## abjectplop (Sep 24, 2020)

Likely covered already in this thread so apologies for asking, but what's the deal with the equivalent of CSS on the new system to account for weather? I'm thinking of joining a links course next year and it can really blow at times (east coast Scotland).....is the new system as flexible as CSS in accounting for crazy conditions?!


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## rulefan (Sep 24, 2020)

abjectplop said:



			Likely covered already in this thread so apologies for asking, but what's the deal with the equivalent of CSS on the new system to account for weather? I'm thinking of joining a links course next year and it can really blow at times (east coast Scotland).....is the new system as flexible as CSS in accounting for crazy conditions?!
		
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The *Playing Conditions Calculation* does much the same job. It is calculated from and applied to all scores returned by midnight on the day.


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## yandabrown (Sep 29, 2020)

Is this still going to happen for November? The reason that I ask is that about a quarter of the courses in my area have still to get their ratings onto NCRDB. Is there a big delay between the rating happening and it appearing on the database? I presume things like scorecards need re-printing, the lookup tables need creating, printing, mounting etc. We are almost into October and from the outside it would appear that there still seems like a lot to be done.


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## Beezerk (Sep 29, 2020)

Me and some friends had a discussion about the WHS over the weekend and none of us are any the wiser.
The slope rating of your home course, does that apply only to visitors?
One mate said he'd be off 25 in November as the slope rating of the course says he gains 3 shots, I said it was only for visitors to use,  your handicap is your handicap at your home course and only changes when you play elsewhere. 
Alternatively is the slope rating of your home course built into how your new WHS handicap is calculated?
#confused 🤔


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## Swango1980 (Sep 29, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			Is this still going to happen for November? The reason that I ask is that about a quarter of the courses in my area have still to get their ratings onto NCRDB. Is there a big delay between the rating happening and it appearing on the database? I presume things like scorecards need re-printing, the lookup tables need creating, printing, mounting etc. We are almost into October and from the outside it would appear that there still seems like a lot to be done.
		
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Yes, 2nd November will be the launch

What area are you in? We had our course measured up a long time ago, received a certificate showing our course and slop ratings, and have ordered new score cards and a conversion chart. I'd imagine most clubs are well on their way to getting everything they need, but if some clubs have not yet been measured up yet, not sure how they go about ordering in scorecards and conversion charts


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## Swango1980 (Sep 29, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Me and some friends had a discussion about the WHS over the weekend and none of us are any the wiser.
The slope rating of your home course, does that apply only to visitors?
One mate said he'd be off 25 in November as the slope rating of the course says he gains 3 shots, I said it was only for visitors to use,  your handicap is your handicap at your home course and only changes when you play elsewhere.
Alternatively is the slope rating of your home course built into how your new WHS handicap is calculated?
#confused 🤔
		
Click to expand...

The Slope rating is for EVERYONE.

A player will have a handicap INDEX, which will be the same for any course you play (i.e. if I had an Index of 10, it would be 10 at my course, it would be 10 at Wentworth, it would be 10 at Woodhall Spa, etc.

However, a player does not play off their Index. They need to use it to get a Course Handicap. So, your course handicap will be Index x Slope / 113. 

So, if your Home course is a relatively easy course, then you'll find you'll have a higher Course Handicap when you go to a relatively harder course (with a higher slope), and vice versa.


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## yandabrown (Sep 29, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, 2nd November will be the launch

What area are you in? We had our course measured up a long time ago, received a certificate showing our course and slop ratings, and have ordered new score cards and a conversion chart. I'd imagine most clubs are well on their way to getting everything they need, but if some clubs have not yet been measured up yet, not sure how they go about ordering in scorecards and conversion charts
		
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Berks, Bucks and Oxon, I reckon that about 23 of the 106 entries in the database are missing.


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## Beezerk (Sep 29, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			The Slope rating is for EVERYONE.

A player will have a handicap INDEX, which will be the same for any course you play (i.e. if I had an Index of 10, it would be 10 at my course, it would be 10 at Wentworth, it would be 10 at Woodhall Spa, etc.

However, a player does not play off their Index. They need to use it to get a Course Handicap. So, your course handicap will be Index x Slope / 113.

So, if your Home course is a relatively easy course, then you'll find you'll have a higher Course Handicap when you go to a relatively harder course (with a higher slope), and vice versa.
		
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Ok thanks, so say my mate is off 21, his club have put up the slope rating sheet which says players in the handicap range of 22-25 gain 3 shots iirc, so he's off 25 when he plays at his home course?


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## Swango1980 (Sep 29, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Ok thanks, so say my mate is off 21, his club have put up the slope rating sheet which says players in the handicap range of 22-25 gain 3 shots iirc, so he's off 25 when he plays at his home course?
		
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That may not strictly be correct, I guess it will depend on the Slope of the course.

If they have made the simply assumption a player's current Handicap will be the same as their Handicap Index, then that is not strictly true. For example, looking at players from my course, most will get a Handicap Index that is a shot or 2 lower than their current handicap. Then, once the Slope is applied, their Course Handicap will be similar to their current handicap. So, your mate may have a handicap index of, say 19.0. If the slope of his course was 130, for example, his course handicap would be 21.9.


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## Old Skier (Sep 29, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Ok thanks, so say my mate is off 21, his club have put up the slope rating sheet which says players in the handicap range of 22-25 gain 3 shots iirc, so he's off 25 when he plays at his home course?
		
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Only if his handicap index is the same as his current handicap.  He will be informed of his index in the near future.

It appears a lot of clubs are doing there best not to inform members.


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## Bwgan (Sep 29, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Ok thanks, so say my mate is off 21, his club have put up the slope rating sheet which says players in the handicap range of 22-25 gain 3 shots iirc, so he's off 25 when he plays at his home course?
		
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This is something similar I've wanted to ask.
If you're m8 is playing to a Handicap Index of 21 at your course and it's usually 3 shots harder for the handicap, isn't his new Handicap Index actually 18?  Thus giving him 21 shots

I could be completely wrong here!


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## ger147 (Sep 29, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Only if his handicap index is the same as his current handicap.  He will be informed of his index in the near future.

It appears a lot of clubs are doing there best not to inform members.
		
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Had dozens of email from my club over the past few months, everything from Covid 19 to Steak night promotions.

Not a single mention of WHS...


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## IanM (Sep 29, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Had dozens of email from my club over the past few months, everything from Covid 19 to Steak night promotions.

Not a *single *mention of WHS...
		
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Same here.   

I sure if will be fine.  This thread is the equivalent of what would happen if IT Architects were allowed to write User Manuals.


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## Swango1980 (Sep 29, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Had dozens of email from my club over the past few months, everything from Covid 19 to Steak night promotions.

Not a single mention of WHS...
		
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I wrote a very long e-mail to all members, back in February / March sort of time, giving them a heads up. I've since put some posters on noticeboard, and social media. However, most don't even bother looking (or care), and I don't really want to continually post info after info because it starts to just have a similar effect as junk mail. Especially as they've been getting other information related to Covid guidelines, club promotions, etc.

I do want to send out something definitive by mid October at the latest, given that the changeover would be a few weeks away. However, I wanted to mainly provide them with information regarding the things that they will need to do differently. So, not just a description on Index, Course and Playing Handicaps, and the impact of Slope. BUT, how Apps will be different, how they'll inform a player of their Course Handicap / Playing Handicap, how to enter scores, how to pre-register for supplementary rounds using Apps, etc. Also, I believe players will be able to log in to the England Golf handicapping platform to view their Index and whatever else. However, at the minute I don't think any of these are yet available, nor do I know how they'll work when they are available, so I may have to refrain from giving out information on these aspects.


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## Springveldt (Sep 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			In England last year 43% of qualifiers were played as Medals and 49% as Stableford.
		
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My course must have accounted for a lot of the Stableford results, must be around 90%-10% in terms of Stableford to medals. Wish we would play more medal comps to be honest, the Cat 1 players (even although I'm nowhere near that level) hardly ever win a comp.


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## ger147 (Sep 29, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I wrote a very long e-mail to all members, back in February / March sort of time, giving them a heads up. I've since put some posters on noticeboard, and social media. However, most don't even bother looking (or care), and I don't really want to continually post info after info because it starts to just have a similar effect as junk mail. Especially as they've been getting other information related to Covid guidelines, club promotions, etc.

I do want to send out something definitive by mid October at the latest, given that the changeover would be a few weeks away. However, I wanted to mainly provide them with information regarding the things that they will need to do differently. So, not just a description on Index, Course and Playing Handicaps, and the impact of Slope. BUT, how Apps will be different, how they'll inform a player of their Course Handicap / Playing Handicap, how to enter scores, how to pre-register for supplementary rounds using Apps, etc. Also, I believe players will be able to log in to the England Golf handicapping platform to view their Index and whatever else. However, at the minute I don't think any of these are yet available, nor do I know how they'll work when they are available, so I may have to refrain from giving out information on these aspects.
		
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Our place haven't acknowledged it's happening yet. I'm hoping they've heard about it by now but you never know...

I would have been quite happy with one high level email earlier in the year explaining a new handicap system was coming in and some details specific to the club e.g. if our courses had been rated and if not when it was happening, stuff like when new scorecards with the new ratings would be available, the date when we switch over to the new system, when you are likely to learn what your playing index will be etc.

To not hear any mention of it at all is a bit disconcerting.


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## IanM (Sep 29, 2020)

You would have lost many with the "long" email Swango! 

All research about_ change-communications_ says that messages need to be short and to the point AND it averages 6 to 9 messages to make stuff stick.  Most emails are ignored, as are posters.... unless you are creative with them!  Start with high-level messages then flesh out the detail that they *actually* need to know! 

The exceptions being "FIRE" and "ABANDON SHIP" etc etc.. folk tend to listen to them first time! 

I deliberately differentiate between the _"how do I know my shot allowance on this course today?_" messages from the _"What do I do if a spaceship lands on the course during a mixed Texas Scramble.  Do curtesy shots still apply during Martian Invasion?"  _type explanation.  There's no rush for that sort of message.

Anyone who admits to having read any part of the "decisions on the rules" of golf must be banned from writing Member Guidance on WHS!   

10 bullet pointed "key facts" on a single sheet of A4 at eye level above a urinal will be more effective than any email!  (bullet points ideally are one line, and never exceed two!)


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## Swango1980 (Sep 29, 2020)

IanM said:



			You would have lost many with the "long" email Swango!

All research about_ change-communications_ says that messages need to be short and to the point AND it averages 6 to 9 messages to make stuff stick.  Most emails are ignored, as are posters.... unless you are creative with them!  Start with high-level messages then flesh out the detail that they *actually* need to know!

The exceptions being "FIRE" and "ABANDON SHIP" etc etc.. folk tend to listen to them first time! 

I deliberately differentiate between the _"how do I know my shot allowance on this course today?_" messages from the _"What do I do if a spaceship lands on the course during a mixed Texas Scramble.  Do curtesy shots still apply during Martian Invasion?"  _type explanation.  There's no rush for that sort of message.

Anyone who admits to having read any part of the "decisions on the rules" of golf must be banned from writing Member Guidance on WHS!  

10 bullet pointed "key facts" on a single sheet of A4 at eye level above a urinal will be more effective than any email!  (bullet points ideally are one line, and never exceed two!)
		
Click to expand...

True. It's why I've been waiting for more info from England Golf so I can work out the key points players actually need to know, in the most basic of senses.

I did send out the WHS Privacy Notice today, that all clubs must send to all members by 5th October. I briefly mentioned WHS is still due on 2nd November, I'll e-mail any key details mid October once I receive them, but in meantime for any players interested in WHS, the Players Guide on the CONGU website seems quite good as a reference.


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## JamesR (Sep 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			On a side note, wouldn't it be more sensible to allocate shpts on the holes where your handicap differs? You are a 8 handicap and your opponent is 12. Wouldn't it be better to give the shots on SI 9-12?
		
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I’ve always thought that 👍


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## rosecott (Sep 29, 2020)

Ethan said:



			On a side note, wouldn't it be more sensible to allocate shpts on the holes where your handicap differs? You are a 8 handicap and your opponent is 12. Wouldn't it be better to give the shots on SI 9-12?
		
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I don't think the 12 handicapper would be very happy if SI 9-12 were all on the last 4 holes.


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## JamesR (Sep 29, 2020)

rosecott said:



			I don't think the 12 handicapper would be very happy if SI 9-12 were all on the last 4 holes.
		
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Why? In theory, both players should have halved the previous holes anyway, if they were playing to their respective handicaps.


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## nickjdavis (Sep 29, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I Also, I believe players will be able to log in to the England Golf handicapping platform to view their Index and whatever else. However, at the minute I don't think any of these are yet available, nor do I know how they'll work when they are available, so I may have to refrain from giving out information on these aspects.
		
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I've been regularly asking for information on this matter. The last I heard a couple of weeks (maybe 3) ago was that not every club had uploaded their course details to the new DotGolf website (I think the number mentioned was roughly 300 outstanding) but the "authorities" were hoping that everything would be done "in the very near future". Lets say the site gets released to the general public by October 10th....I see not a cat in hells chance that every golfer will have bothered to look at the site....let alone register their details on the site by November 2nd....actually....scrub that date....lets go for January 1st.


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## Beezerk (Sep 29, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			That may not strictly be correct, I guess it will depend on the Slope of the course.

If they have made the simply assumption a player's current Handicap will be the same as their Handicap Index, then that is not strictly true. For example, looking at players from my course, most will get a Handicap Index that is a shot or 2 lower than their current handicap. Then, once the Slope is applied, their Course Handicap will be similar to their current handicap. So, your mate may have a handicap index of, say 19.0. If the slope of his course was 130, for example, his course handicap would be 21.9.
		
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Ok thanks, of course it all depends on what handicap he's given come November but for arguments sake, if he remains on 22 he will get an extra 3 shots then? 
Both his and my course have posted spreadsheets which appears to do the maths for you, find your handicap index, look across and that's what you play off. I also worked out mine using the divide by 113 formula and it was exactly the same as what is on the sheet.


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## Beezerk (Sep 29, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Only if his handicap index is the same as his current handicap.  He will be informed of his index in the near future.

It appears a lot of clubs are doing there best not to inform members.
		
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Well yes, I was just using his current handicap as an example, I dont think anyone really knows what their new handicaps will be lol.


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## rulefan (Sep 29, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			Is this still going to happen for November? The reason that I ask is that about a quarter of the courses in my area have still to get their ratings onto NCRDB. Is there a big delay between the rating happening and it appearing on the database?
		
Click to expand...

As soon as England Golf have completed the rating paperwork the results are sent to the club and the ncrdb is automatically updated.


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## Beezerk (Sep 29, 2020)

Bwgan said:



			This is something similar I've wanted to ask.
If you're m8 is playing to a Handicap Index of 21 at your course and it's usually 3 shots harder for the handicap, isn't his new Handicap Index actually 18?  Thus giving him 21 shots

I could be completely wrong here!
		
Click to expand...

I thought I'd read that your handicap index is for your home course and the slope only comes into play at away courses, I must have read it incorrectly from what I'm reading here.
Another thing which bothers me, my mate off 22, he's comfortably played to that for a couple of years, threatens really low scores at times but usually blows up on the last 3 holes lol. He's obviously ok at playing to 22 at his home course yet he's now potentially going to gain 3 shots from nowhere.


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## rulefan (Sep 29, 2020)

Springveldt said:



			My course must have accounted for a lot of the Stableford results, must be around 90%-10% in terms of Stableford to medals. Wish we would play more medal comps to be honest, the Cat 1 players (even although I'm nowhere near that level) hardly ever win a comp.
		
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A study by the then SGU found:

When the distribution of winners by handicap category is related to their representation in the field, all handicap categories win in reasonable proportion to their entry
i.e. Category 1 and Category 3 players typically comprise 8% and 40% of a club competition and in a ‘single class’ competition win 10% and 38% of the time.

The study was based on data published in the Herald Club Golf Returns over three years and embracing 2622 competitions (approximately 250,000 rounds of golf!)


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## Swango1980 (Sep 29, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I thought I'd read that your handicap index is for your home course and the slope only comes into play at away courses, I must have read it incorrectly from what I'm reading here.
Another thing which bothers me, my mate off 22, he's comfortably played to that for a couple of years, threatens really low scores at times but usually blows up on the last 3 holes lol. He's obviously ok at playing to 22 at his home course yet he's now potentially going to gain 3 shots from nowhere.
		
Click to expand...

Don't worry yet, his Index could be lower than 22 anyway. Just a few weeks away from finding out for certain


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## rulefan (Sep 29, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Both his and my course have posted spreadsheets which appears to do the maths for you, find your handicap index, look across and that's what you play off.
		
Click to expand...

 That's what will be on the boards and notices you club will display



			I also worked out mine using the divide by 113 formula and it was exactly the same as what is on the sheet.
		
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I should hope so


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## rulefan (Sep 29, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I thought I'd read that your handicap index is for your home course and the slope only comes into play at away courses, I must have read it incorrectly from what I'm reading here.
		
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I'm afraid you have



			Another thing which bothers me, my mate off 22, he's comfortably played to that for a couple of years, threatens really low scores at times but usually blows up on the last 3 holes lol. He's obviously ok at playing to 22 at his home course yet he's now potentially going to gain 3 shots from nowhere.
		
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It almost certain he will not have a handicap index of 22. His new Index will effectively depend on the Course Rating and Slope of the course and which tees he has played from. The handicap he actually plays off will again depend on the Slope of the tees he is playing.

Where have you got your information from? Have you looked here?
https://www.englandgolf.org/whs/


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## Beezerk (Sep 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Where have you got your information from? Have you looked here?
https://www.englandgolf.org/whs/

Click to expand...

Obviously the wrong places lol, I'll check out the link thanks 👍


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## Springveldt (Sep 29, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			I thought I'd read that your handicap index is for your home course and the slope only comes into play at away courses, I must have read it incorrectly from what I'm reading here.
Another thing which bothers me, my mate off 22, he's comfortably played to that for a couple of years, threatens really low scores at times but usually blows up on the last 3 holes lol. He's obviously ok at playing to 22 at his home course yet he's now potentially going to gain 3 shots from nowhere.
		
Click to expand...

As others have said, if he's playing to a 22 handicap on his home course and the slope is giving him an extra 3 shots under WHS system then I will be very surprised if his initial Index is 22. For example, my current handicap is 9.2, my course has a slope of 139 but when I did the maths on my last 20 rounds (using net double bogey and CSS on that day) my WHS Index works out at 7.7 which would give me a course handicap of 9 for my home course. So I'm gaining nothing at my home course.


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## jim8flog (Sep 29, 2020)

IanM said:



			10 bullet pointed "key facts" on a single sheet of A4 at eye level above a urinal will be more effective than any email!  (bullet points ideally are one line, and never exceed two!)
		
Click to expand...

That is exactly where I put 'must read' notices.


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## jim8flog (Sep 29, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Obviously the wrong places lol, I'll check out the link thanks 👍
		
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Step 1 The first thing you need to know is where and how to check your handicap record.
Step 2  Have you got 20 or more scores on your record since January 2018.
Step 3 If yes write down the last 20 gross differentials
Step 4 work out the best 8 gross differentials from that 20
Step 5 Add the 8 together
Step 6 Divide the total by 8 and you will have your approximate Handicap Index.

If you have less than 20 it is more complicated.


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## Beezerk (Sep 29, 2020)

Springveldt said:



			As others have said, if he's playing to a 22 handicap on his home course and the slope is giving him an extra 3 shots under WHS system then I will be very surprised if his initial Index is 22. For example, my current handicap is 9.2, my course has a slope of 139 but when I did the maths on my last 20 rounds (using net double bogey and CSS on that day) my WHS Index works out at 7.7 which would give me a course handicap of 9 for my home course. So I'm gaining nothing at my home course.
		
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Thanks for the reply, explains a lot.
I think one of my queries was when the powers that be work out your new handicap index, do they take into account the slope of your course or purely on scores you've put in irrelevant of where you have played, if that makes sense?
I've played my majority of my golf at a place where the slope is 123 off the whites, my new course is 129 but I've only played 3 qualifiers there.


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## Beezerk (Sep 29, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			If you have less than 20 it is more complicated.
		
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Go on then?


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## jim8flog (Sep 29, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Go on then? 

Click to expand...

You asked

5.2a For Fewer Than 20 Scores
A Handicap Index is calculated from the lowest Score Differentials in the scoring
record. If a scoring record contains fewer than 20 Score Differentials, the table
below is used to determine the number of Score Differentials to be included in the
calculation and any adjustment that may apply. Round the result of the calculation
to the nearest tenth.
Number of Score differentials in scoring record
Score Differential(s) to be used in calculation of Handicap Index
Adjustment
3 Lowest 1 -2.0
4 Lowest 1 -1.0
5 Lowest 1 0
6 Average of lowest 2 -1.0
7 or 8 Average of lowest 2 0
9 to 11 Average of lowest 3 0
12 to 14 Average of lowest 4 0
15 or 16 Average of lowest 5 0
17 or 18 Average of lowest 6 0
19 Average of lowest 7 0
20 Average of lowest 8 0


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## ger147 (Sep 29, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Step 1 The first thing you need to know is where and how to check your handicap record.
Step 2  Have you got 20 or more scores on your record since January 2018.
Step 3 If yes write down the last 20
Step 4 work out the best 8 from that 20
Step 5 Add the 8 together
Step 6 Divide the total by 8 and you will have your approximate Handicap Index.

If you have less than 20 it is more complicated.
		
Click to expand...

I appreciate the effort of going to the trouble of posting and trying to make things simple for those of of us who haven't had access to all the briefings along the way, but what you've posted above is not correct.

Going by your steps above, if someone has scored 82 8 times out of the last 20 rounds and that is their best scores, then their handicap index would be 82.


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## IanM (Sep 29, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			That is exactly where I put 'must read' notices.
		
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I started that when I worked for Credit Suisse... I wanted to call it the Bog-blog, 
 but they insisted on Washroom Weekly!


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## jim8flog (Sep 29, 2020)

ger147 said:



			I appreciate the effort of going to the trouble of posting and trying to make things simple for those of of us who haven't had access to all the briefings along the way, but what you've posted above is not correct.

Going by your steps above, if someone has scored 82 8 times out of the last 20 rounds and that is their best scores, then their handicap index would be 82.
		
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Yes missed saying gross differential I will edit


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## jim8flog (Sep 29, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Go on then? 

Click to expand...

I missed out gross differential step 3 and 4


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## Ross61 (Sep 29, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Step 1 The first thing you need to know is where and how to check your handicap record.
Step 2  Have you got 20 or more scores on your record since January 2018.
Step 3 If yes write down the last 20 gross differentials
Step 4 work out the best 8 gross differentials from that 20
Step 5 Add the 8 together
Step 6 Divide the total by 8 and you will have your approximate Handicap Index.

If you have less than 20 it is more complicated.
		
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Surely by your steps it would not end up with handicap *INDEX *but your course playing handicap


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## Swango1980 (Sep 29, 2020)

Ross61 said:



			Surely by your steps it would not end up with handicap *INDEX *but your course playing handicap
		
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In step 4, when taking best 8, if this is simply the score above CSS (will be Course Rating) then yes, course handicap. A factor of 113/Slope needs to be applied to the above to get Index


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## rulefan (Sep 29, 2020)

Beezerk said:



			Thanks for the reply, explains a lot.
I think one of my queries was when the powers that be work out your new handicap index, do they take into account the slope of your course or purely on scores you've put in irrelevant of where you have played, if that makes sense?
I've played my majority of my golf at a place where the slope is 123 off the whites, my new course is 129 but I've only played 3 qualifiers there.
		
Click to expand...

They will use the competition CSS (or SSS if supp score) and Slope Rating of the tees/course played.


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## Springveldt (Sep 29, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Step 1 The first thing you need to know is where and how to check your handicap record.
Step 2  Have you got 20 or more scores on your record since January 2018.
Step 3 If yes write down the last 20 gross differentials
Step 4 work out the best 8 gross differentials from that 20
Step 5 Add the 8 together
Step 6 Divide the total by 8 and you will have your approximate Handicap Index.

If you have less than 20 it is more complicated.
		
Click to expand...

Slightly more complicated than that as you need your last 20 qualifiers and you need to check your score for net double bogey as well. You also need the CSS for that day and the slope of the course.
You then work out the differential for that day based on those and take the average of the 8 best, that gives you your index.

I was bored the other week and knocked up an excel sheet to track it for me.


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## Beezerk (Sep 29, 2020)

Springveldt said:



			Slightly more complicated than that as you need your last 20 qualifiers and you need to check your score for net double bogey as well. You also need the CSS for that day and the slope of the course.
You then work out the differential for that day based on those and take the average of the 8 best, that gives you your index.

I was bored the other week and knocked up an excel sheet to track it for me.
		
Click to expand...

Well we'd all love to see it 👀😂


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## jim8flog (Sep 30, 2020)

Springveldt said:



			Slightly more complicated than that as you need your last 20 qualifiers and you need to check your score for net double bogey as well. You also need the CSS for that day and the slope of the course.
You then work out the differential for that day based on those and take the average of the 8 best, that gives you your index.

I was bored the other week and knocked up an excel sheet to track it for me.
		
Click to expand...

Gross differential column on a players handicap record has already adjusted for nett double bogey and the CSS.


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## jim8flog (Sep 30, 2020)

Ross61 said:



			Surely by your steps it would not end up with handicap *INDEX *but your course playing handicap
		
Click to expand...

 yes you are right it will be the approximate course handicap 



Springveldt said:



			Slightly more complicated than that as you need your last 20 qualifiers and you need to check your score for net double bogey as well. You also need the CSS for that day and the slope of the course.
You then work out the differential for that day based on those and take the average of the 8 best, that gives you your index.

I was bored the other week and knocked up an excel sheet to track it for me.
		
Click to expand...

Not really thinking straight last.

One of the troubles is using current handicap records which have no slope and if it is like mine will have been recorded on a variety of courses at least 5 of which I know will have a different slope and course ratings.


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## rulefan (Sep 30, 2020)

Of course you have to 'de-slope' each score first.


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## jim8flog (Sep 30, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Of course you have to 'de-slope' each score first.
		
Click to expand...

or if all scores are on the same course from the same tee you can deslope after totalling the 8 (if the maths part of my brain is working better today).


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## Tommy10 (Sep 30, 2020)

Dunno if anyone has posted this but it's what I look at after each round to see if anything has changed

https://www.calculator.net/golf-han...rse=71.9&cslope=132&cpar=70&ctype=2&x=56&y=17


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## rulefan (Sep 30, 2020)

Tommy10 said:



			Dunno if anyone has posted this but it's what I look at after each round to see if anything has changed

https://www.calculator.net/golf-han...rse=71.9&cslope=132&cpar=70&ctype=2&x=56&y=17

Click to expand...

Not sure where you are but it will not work until November if you are in GB & I.
Further, the 'Par' value should be set to the value of the Course Rating as CONGU does not use the (CR- Par) adjustment.


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## rosecott (Sep 30, 2020)

Tommy10 said:



			Dunno if anyone has posted this but it's what I look at after each round to see if anything has changed

https://www.calculator.net/golf-han...rse=71.9&cslope=132&cpar=70&ctype=2&x=56&y=17

Click to expand...

Do you have an official handicap?


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## Tommy10 (Oct 1, 2020)

rosecott said:



			Do you have an official handicap?
		
Click to expand...

Yeah at the moment it's 21.7, according to that calculator i'll be going down to 17.4 for handicap index (as my 8 best rounds stand) with a course handicap of 22


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## azazel (Oct 1, 2020)

So I've worked out - I think - that my index based on 8/20 will be 5.6. Which is pretty close to my current exact of 5.4 and, interestingly, if I play to buffer or better in this weekend's competition, which is the last of the year, my index would actually come down to 5.4 or lower, and if I don't buffer my current exact goes up to 5.5, so either way my index is going to match my current handicap, which is very neat and tidy. And also assumes I've done the maths correctly.

Anyway, is it correct that the index would then be adjusted for my playing handicap, and if my course is rated above the 113 average I'll end up getting more shots per round than I currently do? Or have I missed a step somewhere?

EDIT: I can't find a slope rating for my club but I'm assuming it's been rated by now.


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## rosecott (Oct 1, 2020)

Tommy10 said:



			Yeah at the moment it's 21.7, according to that calculator i'll be going down to 17.4 for handicap index (as my 8 best rounds stand) with a course handicap of 22
		
Click to expand...

I am quite surprised at a CONGU handicap of 21.7 leading to a WHS HI of 17.4


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## rulefan (Oct 1, 2020)

Tommy10 said:



			Yeah at the moment it's 21.7, according to that calculator i'll be going down to 17.4 for handicap index (as my 8 best rounds stand) with a course handicap of 22
		
Click to expand...

Do you play all or virtually all rounds on one course? In particular the best 8?


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 1, 2020)

rosecott said:



			I am quite surprised at a CONGU handicap of 21.7 leading to a WHS HI of 17.4
		
Click to expand...

Really, its pretty much as I would expect i.e. his home course WHS handicap being equal to his CONGU playing handicap.


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## Ethan (Oct 1, 2020)

rosecott said:



			I am quite surprised at a CONGU handicap of 21.7 leading to a WHS HI of 17.4
		
Click to expand...

The CONGU handicap is anchored more by your past scores more than the WHS one, so it takes longer for the CONGU one to fall if you mix in some decent but not spectacular scores with some so-so ones. Under WHS, your handicap has a shorter memory, so if your game improves (or collapses), you can drop (or increase) handicap more quickly. It is more responsive to recent play and a lot of what used to be ho hum buffer zone scores may help reduce it by displacing worse scores contributing to the best 8 of 20.


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## ExRabbit (Oct 2, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The CONGU handicap is anchored more by your past scores more than the WHS one, so it takes longer for the CONGU one to fall if you mix in some decent but not spectacular scores with some so-so ones. *Under WHS, your handicap has a shorter memory, so if your game* improves (or *collapses)*, *you can* drop (or* increase*) *handicap more quickly*. It is more responsive to recent play and a lot of what used to be ho hum buffer zone scores may help reduce it by displacing worse scores contributing to the best 8 of 20.
		
Click to expand...

I doubt I'll play many senior or other Opens next year - unless the value is just in playing the course at a decent price. Which is what I do anyway, but I would like to think I had some chance of winning. I'm sure the system will be milked for a while.


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## Tommy10 (Oct 2, 2020)

All of my rounds have been taken off the medal tees at my home course, course rating 71.9 and slope of 132. The CSS for just about every comp has been 72 so i'm not sure if I should have added 2 strokes to the playing stroke adjustrment section, if I remove those (as I have done below) my handicap index would be 19.2 and course handicap at 24


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## rulefan (Oct 2, 2020)

Tommy10 said:



			The CSS for just about every comp has been 72 so i'm not sure if I should have added 2 strokes to the *playing stroke adjustrment *section,
		
Click to expand...

I don't understand why you think you should adjust anything. What is the adjustment for and what are you adjusting? What is the _'playing stroke adjustment section_'?


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## Crow (Oct 2, 2020)

Calculated mine out of curiosity, I knew I'd been playing badly the last couple of years so not too surprised at the results.

Handicap Index 17.0 which means I'll be playing off 18 from the whites at my home course.  

A few qualifiers to go before end of October, need a couple of decent scores to get me down a bit.


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## Beezerk (Oct 2, 2020)

Crow said:



			Calculated mine out of curiosity, I knew I'd been playing badly the last couple of years so not too surprised at the results.

Handicap Index 17.0 which means I'll be playing off 18 from the whites at my home course.  

A few qualifiers to go before end of October, need a couple of decent scores to get me down a bit.
		
Click to expand...

Bandit 😆


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## AmandaJR (Oct 2, 2020)

It is probably more complex than this but anyhow I'll ask! My best 8 out of 20 has an average of +0.75 (over CSS). So can I expect a shot increase? Would be nice!


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## rulefan (Oct 2, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			It is probably more complex than this but anyhow I'll ask! My best 8 out of 20 has an average of +0.75 (over CSS). So can I expect a shot increase? Would be nice!
		
Click to expand...

Did you slope and de-slope your scores?


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## AmandaJR (Oct 2, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Did you slope and de-slope your scores?
		
Click to expand...

No. How do I do that? According to the USGA the Slope of the reds is 133. Does it matter they have Par incorrect at 74 (should be 75)?


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## rulefan (Oct 2, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			No. How do I do that? According to the USGA the Slope of the reds is 133. Does it matter they have Par incorrect at 74 (should be 75)?
		
Click to expand...

Par is irrelevant.
For each round use your CONGU handicap to calculate a Course Handicap. ie multiply CONGU by (slope / 113) *Sloping*
Then calculate your* S*core *D*ifferential. (113 / Slope) multiplied by your gross score (adjusted for net db and difference between CSS an SSS) *De-sloping*
Use the SDs for your 8 from 20. THat's your Index.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 2, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Par is irrelevant.
For each round use your CONGU handicap to calculate a Course Handicap. ie multiply CONGU by (slope / 113) *Sloping*
Then calculate your* S*core *D*ifferential. (113 / Slope) multiplied by your gross score (adjusted for net db and difference between CSS an SSS) *De-sloping*
Use the SDs for your 8 from 20. THat's your Index.
		
Click to expand...

Crikey. Knew my method had to be way too simple! Might have a go at that tomorrow...

PS If any Stableford just assume nett double bogey for blobs?


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## Old Skier (Oct 2, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Crikey. Knew my method had to be way too simple! Might have a go at that tomorrow...

PS If any Stableford just assume nett double bogey for blobs?
		
Click to expand...

Far simpler way - wait for EG to do all the work


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## rulefan (Oct 2, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			PS If any Stableford just assume nett double bogey for blobs?
		
Click to expand...

Yes.

But see post #1022


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## AmandaJR (Oct 3, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Yes.

But see post #1022
		
Click to expand...

I know but kind of interesting to get an idea beforehand and see how close I get!


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## AmandaJR (Oct 3, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I know but kind of interesting to get an idea beforehand and see how close I get!
		
Click to expand...

Ok you're right. Just had a go and can't get my brain to compute!


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## rulefan (Oct 3, 2020)

Let a spreadsheet do the work


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## nickjdavis (Oct 3, 2020)

The blame game has already started...

England Golf sent out an email a few days ago to all clubs explaining the timeline over the next month for migration and key dates such as...

Current ISV software would push user data to the WHS Dot Golf Website on 5th October
The website would be opened up to Golf clubs to review member data from 12th October
Golfers will be able to access their data and see their predicted handicaps from the 19th October
Launch on the 2nd November

The email states that all ISVs will link to the platform and are currently in testing phase and will be issued with accreditation when they meet the terms of the license. It then goes on to say that some ISV's have not met deadlines, including those around parallel running of the score data.

I've seen emails from an ISV in response that state that...

Accreditation has not even been applied for yet because they are waiting for problems with the DotGolf website to be addresses and that interfaces to the DotGolf site are continually changing.

In response to the "not met deadlines" accusation from EG they say that they have been having discussions about the technical barriers that are inherent in the WHS system design that are hindering the transmission of data to the WHS. EG have declined to provide additional facilities that would have mitigated many of these technical barriers that they have created.

Apparently the ISV email clarifies that the three unions England, Wales and Ireland have decided to cancel the plans to operate a period of parallel running of the CONGU and WHS systems.

They also criticise EG for telling clubs to speak directly to your ISV in order to ensure the relevant user data is ready for the 5th October when they have already discussed their software release plans with EG and believed that EG accepted that this particular ISV's software would be released on 2nd November, and that they have not been advised by EG that they need to work to any date other than 2nd November.

Now, my own take on the situation is that, reading between the lines of the ISV's email is that they have had some issues with working with EG and DotGolf and are somewhat miffed at the support (or perceived lack of support) they have received in resolving these issues and have taken a somewhat negative response to EG's recent email (possibly ignoring the fact that is was a generic email covering all ISV's...some of whom will be able to make the dates quoted above). On EG's side I can see a desire to push responsibility towards the ISV's for not delivering.

 It seems throughout this entire process the golfing authorities have made various assumptions about the way golf clubs operate their handicapping software and how the software vendors will be able to operate during the implementation period. Previous e-mails received over the past 12-18 months have revealed a clear "gap" between the ISV and England Golfs thoughts/view/understanding as to "how things will work"...the theme of EG needing to be more specific and clear about the deliverables was a recurring one. 

As ever, the truth will be somewhere in the middle. 

What is astounding is that, having had well over two years to prepare for this already postponed date, at this late stage there is bickering between the various parties and the likelihood is that for many clubs a solution will be released on the day we are supposed to go live, with no opportunities for real world live testing and validation of the system. Its all very well doing testing in the back ground but the true test will come when 1900 odd golf clubs try to use the system at the same time....no matter how well a system is testing under controlled "lab conditions" it will only take a bit of "load testing" by real world users to highlight the issues that will almost certainly be inherent in the solution on day 1.

I predict a riot.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 3, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			The blame game has already started...

England Golf sent out an email a few days ago to all clubs explaining the timeline over the next month for migration and key dates such as...

Current ISV software would push user data to the WHS Dot Golf Website on 5th October
The website would be opened up to Golf clubs to review member data from 12th October
Golfers will be able to access their data and see their predicted handicaps from the 19th October
Launch on the 2nd November

The email states that all ISVs will link to the platform and are currently in testing phase and will be issued with accreditation when they meet the terms of the license. It then goes on to say that some ISV's have not met deadlines, including those around parallel running of the score data.

I've seen emails from an ISV in response that state that...

Accreditation has not even been applied for yet because they are waiting for problems with the DotGolf website to be addresses and that interfaces to the DotGolf site are continually changing.

In response to the "not met deadlines" accusation from EG they say that they have been having discussions about the technical barriers that are inherent in the WHS system design that are hindering the transmission of data to the WHS. EG have declined to provide additional facilities that would have mitigated many of these technical barriers that they have created.

Apparently the ISV email clarifies that the three unions England, Wales and Ireland have decided to cancel the plans to operate a period of parallel running of the CONGU and WHS systems.

They also criticise EG for telling clubs to speak directly to your ISV in order to ensure the relevant user data is ready for the 5th October when they have already discussed their software release plans with EG and believed that EG accepted that this particular ISV's software would be released on 2nd November, and that they have not been advised by EG that they need to work to any date other than 2nd November.

Now, my own take on the situation is that, reading between the lines of the ISV's email is that they have had some issues with working with EG and DotGolf and are somewhat miffed at the support (or perceived lack of support) they have received in resolving these issues and have taken a somewhat negative response to EG's recent email (possibly ignoring the fact that is was a generic email covering all ISV's...some of whom will be able to make the dates quoted above). On EG's side I can see a desire to push responsibility towards the ISV's for not delivering.

It seems throughout this entire process the golfing authorities have made various assumptions about the way golf clubs operate their handicapping software and how the software vendors will be able to operate during the implementation period. Previous e-mails received over the past 12-18 months have revealed a clear "gap" between the ISV and England Golfs thoughts/view/understanding as to "how things will work"...the theme of EG needing to be more specific and clear about the deliverables was a recurring one.

As ever, the truth will be somewhere in the middle.

What is astounding is that, having had well over two years to prepare for this already postponed date, at this late stage there is bickering between the various parties and the likelihood is that for many clubs a solution will be released on the day we are supposed to go live, with no opportunities for real world live testing and validation of the system. Its all very well doing testing in the back ground but the true test will come when 1900 odd golf clubs try to use the system at the same time....no matter how well a system is testing under controlled "lab conditions" it will only take a bit of "load testing" by real world users to highlight the issues that will almost certainly be inherent in the solution on day 1.

I predict a riot.
		
Click to expand...

But, they said it would be so easy. No need to worry. Much of the rest of the world already operate such a system. 

The regular golfer hasn't even had the chance to use the system and it seems they've already made a mess of it. Mind you, maybe it will focus the minds and there'll be some very busy people in October.


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## Crow (Oct 3, 2020)

I recommend the quick reinstatement of handicap committees and sharp pencils in order to avoid a complete Horlicks.


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## woofers (Oct 3, 2020)

I think you’ll find that our old friend, GDPR, has a lot to do with it.
Legal people from a number of organisations are involved.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 3, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Let a spreadsheet do the work 

Click to expand...

Ha ha - just did that. Index down a shot but slope at home course means no change!


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## Old Skier (Oct 3, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			The blame game has already started...

England Golf sent out an email a few days ago to all clubs explaining the timeline over the next month for migration and key dates such as...

Current ISV software would push user data to the WHS Dot Golf Website on 5th October
The website would be opened up to Golf clubs to review member data from 12th October
Golfers will be able to access their data and see their predicted handicaps from the 19th October
Launch on the 2nd November

The email states that all ISVs will link to the platform and are currently in testing phase and will be issued with accreditation when they meet the terms of the license. It then goes on to say that some ISV's have not met deadlines, including those around parallel running of the score data.

I've seen emails from an ISV in response that state that...

Accreditation has not even been applied for yet because they are waiting for problems with the DotGolf website to be addresses and that interfaces to the DotGolf site are continually changing.

In response to the "not met deadlines" accusation from EG they say that they have been having discussions about the technical barriers that are inherent in the WHS system design that are hindering the transmission of data to the WHS. EG have declined to provide additional facilities that would have mitigated many of these technical barriers that they have created.

Apparently the ISV email clarifies that the three unions England, Wales and Ireland have decided to cancel the plans to operate a period of parallel running of the CONGU and WHS systems.

They also criticise EG for telling clubs to speak directly to your ISV in order to ensure the relevant user data is ready for the 5th October when they have already discussed their software release plans with EG and believed that EG accepted that this particular ISV's software would be released on 2nd November, and that they have not been advised by EG that they need to work to any date other than 2nd November.

Now, my own take on the situation is that, reading between the lines of the ISV's email is that they have had some issues with working with EG and DotGolf and are somewhat miffed at the support (or perceived lack of support) they have received in resolving these issues and have taken a somewhat negative response to EG's recent email (possibly ignoring the fact that is was a generic email covering all ISV's...some of whom will be able to make the dates quoted above). On EG's side I can see a desire to push responsibility towards the ISV's for not delivering.

It seems throughout this entire process the golfing authorities have made various assumptions about the way golf clubs operate their handicapping software and how the software vendors will be able to operate during the implementation period. Previous e-mails received over the past 12-18 months have revealed a clear "gap" between the ISV and England Golfs thoughts/view/understanding as to "how things will work"...the theme of EG needing to be more specific and clear about the deliverables was a recurring one.

As ever, the truth will be somewhere in the middle.

What is astounding is that, having had well over two years to prepare for this already postponed date, at this late stage there is bickering between the various parties and the likelihood is that for many clubs a solution will be released on the day we are supposed to go live, with no opportunities for real world live testing and validation of the system. Its all very well doing testing in the back ground but the true test will come when 1900 odd golf clubs try to use the system at the same time....no matter how well a system is testing under controlled "lab conditions" it will only take a bit of "load testing" by real world users to highlight the issues that will almost certainly be inherent in the solution on day 1.

I predict a riot.
		
Click to expand...

Is EG now advertising for someone to head up the communications and data side of things - now we know where it all went wrong


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## Springveldt (Oct 3, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Par is irrelevant.
For each round use your CONGU handicap to calculate a Course Handicap. ie multiply CONGU by (slope / 113) *Sloping*
Then calculate your* S*core *D*ifferential. (113 / Slope) multiplied by your gross score (adjusted for net db and difference between CSS an SSS) *De-sloping*
Use the SDs for your 8 from 20. THat's your Index.
		
Click to expand...

I thought the initial algorithm for calculating your index was going to use the CSS so would it not be a case of ((nett double bogey - CSS) * (113 / slope)) to get your differential on that day? Then take the average of the 8 best from the last 20.

Maybe I misunderstood the slide that I found online.


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## rulefan (Oct 3, 2020)

Springveldt said:



			I thought the initial algorithm for calculating your index was going to use the CSS so would it not be a case of ((nett double bogey - CSS) * (113 / slope)) to get your differential on that day? Then take the average of the 8 best from the last 20.

Maybe I misunderstood the slide that I found online.
		
Click to expand...

The WHS uses the PCC which has a value of -1 to +3. The CSS itself is around the SSS (+ or -). The nearest equivalent to PCC is (CSS - SSS)


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## rosecott (Oct 3, 2020)

Crow said:



			I recommend the quick reinstatement of handicap committees and sharp pencils in order to avoid a complete Horlicks.  

Click to expand...

News to me that they had been done away with.


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## jim8flog (Oct 4, 2020)

Crow said:



			I recommend the quick reinstatement of handicap committees and sharp pencils in order to avoid a complete Horlicks.  

Click to expand...

I hope they have not got rid of the handicap committee where you play as it is till a requirement under the WHS to have one.

Not that the committee has had anything to since the annual review, just me as the person on Captain's committee who heads the Handicap committee.


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## Springveldt (Oct 4, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The WHS uses the PCC which has a value of -1 to +3. The CSS itself is around the SSS (+ or -). The nearest equivalent to PCC is (CSS - SSS)
		
Click to expand...

I mean for the initial calculation when transferring over. I understand the PCC for when the system is live but I was under the impression that the CSS will be used in the initial calculation.


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## jim8flog (Oct 4, 2020)

Springveldt said:



			I mean for the initial calculation when transferring over. I understand the PCC for when the system is live but I was under the impression that the CSS will be used in the initial calculation.
		
Click to expand...

 From others on here my understanding is that appropriate existing handicap records are being to converted to allow for slope and course rating.


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## azazel (Oct 4, 2020)

Hopefully a simple question:
My congu handicap is 5.2.
My average of the best 8 is 5.1. All scores recorded at my home course.
The slope rating for my course is 133. Course rating is 70.8.
Will my handicap index be lower than 5.1 so that my playing handicap round the course is 5, or can I expect an index of 5.1 that means I’ll actually get 7 strokes on my home course?


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## rulefan (Oct 4, 2020)

rosecott said:



			News to me that they had been done away with.

Click to expand...

Many clubs didn't have one in the first place.


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## rulefan (Oct 4, 2020)

azazel said:



			My average of the best 8 is 5.1. 

Will my handicap index be lower than 5.1 so that my playing handicap round the course is 5, or can I expect an index of 5.1 that means I’ll actually get 7 strokes on my home course?
		
Click to expand...

Did you de-slope your scores when calculating your average. Remember your current recorded differentials are measured against SSS (or CSS) 
The calculation you need to do is crudely (adjusted Gross Score x (113/Slope))


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## Springveldt (Oct 4, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			From others on here my understanding is that appropriate existing handicap records are being to converted to allow for slope and course rating.
		
Click to expand...

Yes but I was under the impression that CSS will be used rather than course rating in the initial conversion. I know once it’s live it will always use course rating and any PCC on that day. 

e.g. One of my best scores in the last 20 is a 79 and the CSS that day was 72 but course rating is 71.1, slope is 139. So to get my differential for the day do I do...

(79-72) * (113/139) = 5.7
Or
(79-71.1) * (113/139) = 6.4

Also is each differential rounded to 1 decimal place before getting the average or are they only rounded after the average?


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## Duckster (Oct 4, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Par is irrelevant.
For each round use your CONGU handicap to calculate a Course Handicap. ie multiply CONGU by (slope / 113) *Sloping*
Then calculate your* S*core *D*ifferential. (113 / Slope) multiplied by your gross score (adjusted for net db and difference between CSS an SSS) *De-sloping*
Use the SDs for your 8 from 20. THat's your Index.
		
Click to expand...

Not too sure if anyone has mentioned this on the thread, but the USGA for their world handicap state the equation as being:
Course Handicap = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating / 113) + (Course Rating – par)
subtle difference but can give you an extra shot.
Everything I’ve seen from England golf doesn’t mention about the course rating - par part, but all the online calculators do appear to use it.
confused.


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## rulefan (Oct 4, 2020)

Duckster said:



			Not too sure if anyone has mentioned this on the thread, but the USGA for their world handicap state the equation as being:
Course Handicap = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating / 113) + (Course Rating – par)
subtle difference but can give you an extra shot.
Everything I’ve seen from England golf doesn’t mention about the course rating - par part, but all the online calculators do appear to use it.
confused.
		
Click to expand...

CONGU is not using the (Course Rating - Par) adjustment.


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## rulefan (Oct 4, 2020)

Springveldt said:



			Yes but I was under the impression that CSS will be used rather than course rating in the initial conversion.
		
Click to expand...

That is correct.



			Also is each differential rounded to 1 decimal place before getting the average or are they only rounded after the average?
		
Click to expand...

When calculated, Score Differentials are calculated to 1 dec place and conventionally rounded to a whole number. The averaging is based on the whole number. The resultant Index is to 1 dec.


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## azazel (Oct 4, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Did you de-slope your scores when calculating your average. Remember your current recorded differentials are measured against SSS (or CSS)
The calculation you need to do is crudely (adjusted Gross Score x (113/Slope))
		
Click to expand...

Ah ok, no I didn’t do that, thanks. I took the stableford adjusted differential against css from the best 8 scores and averaged it out.
so my 74 yesterday (+3 above css) would actually be calculated as 3 x (113/130), which equals 2.6?


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## rulefan (Oct 4, 2020)

azazel said:



			so my 74 yesterday (+3 above css) would actually be calculated as 3 x (113/130), which equals 2.6?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, (having adjusted for any net double bogeys also )


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## azazel (Oct 4, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Yes, (having adjusted for any net double bogeys also )
		
Click to expand...

Great, thanks. Clears things up 👍🏻


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## rulefan (Oct 4, 2020)

azazel said:



			Great, thanks. Clears things up 👍🏻
		
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But rounded up to 3. See post #1045


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## Mozza14 (Oct 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



			That is correct.

When calculated, Score Differentials are calculated to 1 dec place and conventionally rounded to a whole number. The averaging is based on the whole number. The resultant Index is to 1 dec.
		
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What is the source for this information please and for the transition using CSS rather than Course Rating ? Is there documentation regarding this?


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## jim8flog (Oct 6, 2020)

.
.


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## rulefan (Oct 6, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			What is the source for this information please and for the transition using CSS rather than Course Rating ? Is there documentation regarding this?
		
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The manual



and sometimes direct from my connections in England Golf.
_"Using CSS as opposed to SSS(CR) is to adjust approximately for what will be PCC"_
But I believe that has actually been published generally by EG or CONGU


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## Mozza14 (Oct 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Reading the manual closely and partially direct from my connections in England Golf.
The CSS v SSS(CR) is to adjust approximately for what will be PCC
		
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Thanks. I have read the Rules of Handicapping and Guidance document but couldn't find any reference to the transitional arrangements. 

I am interested to know where it says the transition will use the CSS rather than the CR for the Conversion.

Also where it says that rounded differentials would be used rather than to one decimal point?

Would you mind pointing me to the relevant sections or is there another reference manual which you could quote from please? 

If the ongoing system is to use CR to one decimal point and differentials to one decimal point and the software can find the Course Rating why they would not keep it consistent.


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## Mozza14 (Oct 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The manual
View attachment 32815


and sometimes direct from my connections in England Golf.
_"Using CSS as opposed to SSS(CR) is to adjust approximately for what will be PCC"_
But I believe that has actually been published generally by EG or CONGU
		
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 I read that as one decimal point (nearest tenth) . I assume the .5 refers to the second decimal point.


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## jim8flog (Oct 6, 2020)

What I find a pity is that the slides use for the workshops can no longer be accessed.

They showed good examples of a players record and how it is affected.

Anybody still got them?


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## Mozza14 (Oct 6, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			that means
the initial calculation will have more than one decimal place which is rounded to the first decimal place the figure is then rounded to the nearest whole number with 0.5 going up.
		
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Sorry but I cant see that it says anything about rounding up to a whole number. It specifically states to a tenth. In nearly all cases the differential using the calculation 113/Slope rating will produce a string of decimal points. (113 being the exception)


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## Wilson (Oct 6, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			The blame game has already started...

England Golf sent out an email a few days ago to all clubs explaining the timeline over the next month for migration and key dates such as...

Current ISV software would push user data to the WHS Dot Golf Website on 5th October
The website would be opened up to Golf clubs to review member data from 12th October
Golfers will be able to access their data and see their predicted handicaps from the 19th October
Launch on the 2nd November

The email states that all ISVs will link to the platform and are currently in testing phase and will be issued with accreditation when they meet the terms of the license. It then goes on to say that some ISV's have not met deadlines, including those around parallel running of the score data.

I've seen emails from an ISV in response that state that...

Accreditation has not even been applied for yet because they are waiting for problems with the DotGolf website to be addresses and that interfaces to the DotGolf site are continually changing.

In response to the "not met deadlines" accusation from EG they say that they have been having discussions about the technical barriers that are inherent in the WHS system design that are hindering the transmission of data to the WHS. EG have declined to provide additional facilities that would have mitigated many of these technical barriers that they have created.

Apparently the ISV email clarifies that the three unions England, Wales and Ireland have decided to cancel the plans to operate a period of parallel running of the CONGU and WHS systems.

They also criticise EG for telling clubs to speak directly to your ISV in order to ensure the relevant user data is ready for the 5th October when they have already discussed their software release plans with EG and believed that EG accepted that this particular ISV's software would be released on 2nd November, and that they have not been advised by EG that they need to work to any date other than 2nd November.

Now, my own take on the situation is that, reading between the lines of the ISV's email is that they have had some issues with working with EG and DotGolf and are somewhat miffed at the support (or perceived lack of support) they have received in resolving these issues and have taken a somewhat negative response to EG's recent email (possibly ignoring the fact that is was a generic email covering all ISV's...some of whom will be able to make the dates quoted above). On EG's side I can see a desire to push responsibility towards the ISV's for not delivering.

It seems throughout this entire process the golfing authorities have made various assumptions about the way golf clubs operate their handicapping software and how the software vendors will be able to operate during the implementation period. Previous e-mails received over the past 12-18 months have revealed a clear "gap" between the ISV and England Golfs thoughts/view/understanding as to "how things will work"...the theme of EG needing to be more specific and clear about the deliverables was a recurring one.

As ever, the truth will be somewhere in the middle.

What is astounding is that, having had well over two years to prepare for this already postponed date, at this late stage there is bickering between the various parties and the likelihood is that for many clubs a solution will be released on the day we are supposed to go live, with no opportunities for real world live testing and validation of the system. Its all very well doing testing in the back ground but the true test will come when 1900 odd golf clubs try to use the system at the same time....no matter how well a system is testing under controlled "lab conditions" it will only take a bit of "load testing" by real world users to highlight the issues that will almost certainly be inherent in the solution on day 1.

I predict a riot.
		
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Sounds like some of the integration projects I've worked on!


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## Mozza14 (Oct 6, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			What I find a pity is that the slides use for the workshops can no longer be accessed.

They showed good examples of a players record and how it is affected.

Anybody still got them?
		
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If you go to Mapperley Golf Club they have some England Golf slides two of which cover the transition from CONGU to WHS. They set out the conversion process. They talk about a CSS adjustment but clearly say that Course Rating will be used and compared to the adjusted gross score and any CSS adjustments.

Maybe it was subsequently easier to use CSS as that allowed the differential in the CONGU Handicap Record to be used (which is after CSS).

This is why I was querying it but I haven't seen anything definitive officially changing the approach.


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## HampshireHog (Oct 6, 2020)

Does anyone know whether the exceptional round adjustments will be applied to the initial HI’s calculated on Nov 2nd.  Could take me down to single figures.🤞


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## rulefan (Oct 6, 2020)

HampshireHog said:



			Does anyone know whether the exceptional round adjustments will be applied to the initial HI’s calculated on Nov 2nd.  Could take me down to single figures.🤞
		
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My understanding is that each historical round is handled one at a time as if the player was posting them manually after a round. All WHS processes will be followed as each score is processed.


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## jim8flog (Oct 6, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			Sorry but I cant see that it says anything about rounding up to a whole number. It specifically states to a tenth. In nearly all cases the differential using the calculation 113/Slope rating will produce a string of decimal points. (113 being the exception)
		
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Sorry.
 I actually deleted the post virtually as soon as a I posted it. I realised my interpretation was not correct


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## rulefan (Oct 6, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			I read that as one decimal point (nearest tenth) . I assume the .5 refers to the second decimal point.
		
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Thanks for making me read it again. I now agree you are right


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## Mozza14 (Oct 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Thanks for making me read it again. I now agree you are right 

Click to expand...

Thank you. Have you had a look at the slides about transition on the Mapperley Golf club Website and the issue about Course Rating as adjusted by CSS. They were an England Golf publication and if that had changed we would expect to see some sort of documented revision.

Happy to be convinced otherwise but it seems that the original method was logical and easy to calculate. In fact, I have spreadsheets which can do it either way but would be interested to find out what will be done.

On our course, it makes a difference to the outcome albeit small. I think around 0.1 addition to the HI if CSS is used. (Corrected from 0.2 because that included the rounding issue on differentials which we agree no longer exists.)


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## rulefan (Oct 6, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			Thank you. Have you had a look at the slides about transition on the Mapperley Golf club Website *and the issue about Course Rating as adjusted by CSS.* They were an England Golf publication and if that had changed we would expect to see some sort of documented revision.

Happy to be convinced otherwise but it seems that the original method was logical and easy to calculate. In fact, I have spreadsheets which can do it either way but would be interested to find out what will be done.

On our course, it makes a difference to the outcome albeit small. I think around 0.1 addition to the HI if CSS is used. (Corrected from 0.2 because that included the rounding issue on differentials which we agree no longer exists.)
		
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I didn't think I suggested that CSS wasn't used.


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## Mozza14 (Oct 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I didn't think I suggested that CSS wasn't used.
		
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 Agreed. 

In Post 1045 you advised that CSS was being used in the conversion process rather than Course Rating. My query was that was at odds with the England Golf presentation slides. 

You must have some information on which to base your statement. I was simply asking if that was a document or something we could see as I had been relying on England Golf's own previous advice which clearly indicated that Course Rating would be used.


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## JollyRedDevil (Oct 7, 2020)

Apologies if this has already been covered but as this is a long thread, it would take me long time to find the answer.
I currently play off 22. I've been trough my last 20 competitions and selected the best eight. When the gross difference is averaged out it comes to 24.6 (I know I've been play awful recently). 
My question is, come 2nd of November with things as stand, does my HC jump to 24.6 or is there a cap on the amount of increase?


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## rulefan (Oct 7, 2020)

JollyRedDevil said:



			Apologies if this has already been covered but as this is a long thread, it would take me long time to find the answer.
I currently play off 22. I've been trough my last 20 competitions and selected the best eight. When the gross difference is averaged out it comes to 24.6 (I know I've been play awful recently).
My question is, come 2nd of November with things as stand, does my HC jump to 24.6 or is there a cap on the amount of increase?
		
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Did you remember to de-slope your gross difference? 22 to 24.6 does seem a large jump even allowing for the fact _you know you've been playing awful recently._
Take each of the 8 gross and multiply by (113/slope) and average them


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## JollyRedDevil (Oct 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Did you remember to de-slope your gross difference? 22 to 24.6 does seem a large jump even allowing for the fact _you know you've been playing awful recently._
Take each of the 8 gross and multiply by (113/slope) and average them
		
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Will do thanks.


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## brfcfan (Oct 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



			A question that will stymie them is:

CONGU will calculate the Course Handicap as
*CH = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating / 113)*
Whilst the rest of the world (Europe, US, Canada, Australia, South Africa ...) will use
*CH = Handicap Index x (Slope Rating / 113) + (Course Rating - Par)*
Why ?

I haven't been able to get a comprehensible answer yet.
		
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Hi RF, are you sure the above is correct? All the info I have seen with England Golf has the UK working it out using your second calculation?

Apologies if this is an out of date post but can you clarify?


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## Mozza14 (Oct 7, 2020)

To clear up the confusion, I have asked England Golf the following question:

Would you confirm that the *Course Ratings* are being used in the *transitional software *to create the new Handicap Record and the first Handicap Index.

The reply is :

Can I refer you to rule 5 on page 46 of the WHS rules of handicapping so you can see the differential calculation used and that course rating values are used.


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## rulefan (Oct 7, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			To clear up the confusion, I have asked England Golf the following question:

Would you confirm that the *Course Ratings* are being used in the *transitional software *to create the new Handicap Record and the first Handicap Index.

The reply is :

Can I refer you to rule 5 on page 46 of the WHS rules of handicapping so you can see the differential calculation used and that course rating values are used.
		
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5.1a on page 46 makes no mention of the transitional software.
But it does mention the PCC adjustment.


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## Mozza14 (Oct 7, 2020)

rulefan said:



			5.1a on page 46 makes no mention of the transitional software.
But it does mention the PCC adjustment.

View attachment 32822

Click to expand...

I take the England Golf response to mean that the conversion process will generally follow the position of the ongoing system. The reply makes it clear that Course Ratings will be used. The PCC adjustment is broadly the equivalent of the SSS-CSS adjustment.

The Differential described is very much the same as in the early England golf slides describing the conversion so I can see no reason why they shouldn't use Course Ratings. Only in the absence of them might they revert to the CSS alone.


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## rulefan (Oct 7, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			I take the England Golf response to mean that the conversion process will generally follow the position of the ongoing system. *The ongoing system uses PCC *
The reply makes it clear that Course Ratings will be used.

The PCC adjustment is broadly the equivalent of the SSS-CSS adjustment. *So why wouldn't the difference between SSS & CSS be used in lieu of PCC?*

The Differential described is very much the same as in the early England golf slides describing the conversion so I can see no reason why they shouldn't use Course Ratings. Only in the absence of them (*what are 'them', the slides? Wasn't PCC a latecomer to the table?*) might they revert to the CSS alone.
		
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## Mozza14 (Oct 7, 2020)

Sorry what is PSS?

It will be used in lieu of PCC. I haven't said any different. I have been focussing on whether the Course Rating was to be used in the transition.

'them' . I meant a course rating for a particular tee.

I am not sure of the introduction date of PCC.


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## rulefan (Oct 7, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			Sorry what is PSS?

It will be used in lieu of PCC. I haven't said any different. I have been focussing on whether the Course Rating was to be used in the transition.

'them' . I meant a course rating for a particular tee.

I am not sure of the introduction date of PCC.
		
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PSS should have been PCC (now corrected)

Perhaps we have been at cross purposes. When you say CR (ie SSS in old money) will be used do you mean without an adjustment for the difference between CSS and SSS?
I was told that (CSS-SSS) would be used *also* in place of a PCC adjustment.

I am told that any tees not rated at Nov 2nd will use the current SSS and an 'average' Slope of 125 (I think) would be allocated for the purpose of the transition.

PCC will be used for all scores submitted from day 1.


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## Mozza14 (Oct 8, 2020)

rulefan said:



			PSS should have been PCC (now corrected)

Perhaps we have been at cross purposes. When you say CR (ie SSS in old money) will be used do you mean without an adjustment for the difference between CSS and SSS?
I was told that (CSS-SSS) would be used *also* in place of a PCC adjustment.

I am told that any tees not rated at Nov 2nd will use the current SSS and an 'average' Slope of 125 (I think) would be allocated for the purpose of the transition.

PCC will be used for all scores submitted from day 1.
		
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I have stated all along that CR would be used *with the adjustment *for CSS-SSS. That is how the EG presentation slides set it out and how I have developed my own modelling. 

As I also said, I could see CSS being used where there was no rating found.

My concern only related to statements, made on the forum that for the transition, Course Rating was not going to be used and CSS was always going to be used. I thought that was incorrect and it looks like we now agree.


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## jim8flog (Oct 8, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			I thought that was incorrect and it looks like we now agree.
		
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Glald to see. I thought by the time you two get to an agreement England Golf will have issued the Handicap Indexes.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 8, 2020)

For those of you involved in your clubs migration towards the WHS, how have you handled the collection of user data (emails and dates of birth) that the handicapping system software is supposed to be uploading to the WHS platform from the 5th October onwards?

Were all ISV's ready and prepared for this with an appropriate release of software to allow the data to be pushed?

Was the data readily available in your handicapping software or did you need to collate or import it from another source?

Did you have any push back from members regarding the use of such data?


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## rulefan (Oct 8, 2020)

It seems that ClubV1 and EG had not properly considered the implications of the V1 interface to HDID which needs a unique email address. Because we use the full package we have set up email addresses for the (apparently few) Members who didn't have one. As it happens half of them haven't returned a card since 2018.

We are waiting for the day when annual fees to EG and the county are based on players who want/have a handicap rather than 'paid up members'. It could be sooner than expected.


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## rulefan (Oct 8, 2020)

I can confirm that the CSS will be used


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## Canary Kid (Oct 11, 2020)

I apologise if this has been addressed in the previous 54 pages, but I haven't read them all.   As a layman on handicap matters, one thing that puzzles me about the new system is that it states that your new handicap will be based on an average of the best 8 of the last 20 rounds.  But, in principle, the use of an average will lead to a handicap that one can play better than on 50% of occasions; e.g. if your best 8 are four rounds at 90 and four at 98, the handicap will be based on 94, but you can shoot 90 every other round.  I thought your handicap was meant to be you on a very good day.  Or should the wording be a *WEIGHTED* average; i.e. biased towards your best scores?


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## Crazyface (Oct 11, 2020)

I've a question. I've found a site that you can search and find all golf course slope ratings on. So I've checked some local ones. Macclesfield is rated higher than my place and amazingly higher than my last clubs. I can honestly say this is utter conkers. Three of Macc s par fours do not require a driver. In fact I can and have reached all four greens from the tee. So I do not trust these ratings. They are utter smelly stuff.  Who rated the course's????


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## Canary Kid (Oct 11, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			I've a question. I've found a site that you can search and find all golf course slope ratings on. So I've checked some local ones. Macclesfield is rated higher than my place and amazingly higher than my last clubs. I can honestly say this is utter conkers. Three of Macc s par fours do not require a driver. In fact I can and have reached all four greens from the tee. So I do not trust these ratings. They are utter smelly stuff.  Who rated the course's????
		
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To my mind, there are many anomalies in the courses I have played.  But it is not a straight comparison of difficulty, but a measure of how much more difficult a 20 capper would find it as compared to a scratch golfer.  Even so, some ratings appear odd; e.g. the West Sussex off the yellows at a lowly 116.


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## Foxholer (Oct 11, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			I've a question. I've found a site that you can search and find all golf course slope ratings on. So I've checked some local ones. Macclesfield is rated higher than my place and amazingly higher than my last clubs. I can honestly say this is utter conkers. *Three of Macc s par fours* do not require a driver. In fact I can and have reached *all four greens *from the tee. So I do not trust these ratings. They are utter smelly stuff.  Who rated the course's????
		
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How do the Course Ratings compare? That's the 'real' comparison of difficulty - at least, it equivalent to SSS. As CK stated - and it's been stated here multiple times - Slope is a measure much more difficult the course is for a 'Bogey player' (20 capper) than for a scratch one.

Btw. The bold bits 'do not compute'!

Oh!..And here's the official Site...https://ncrdb.usga.org Just remember to set country properly.


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## rulefan (Oct 11, 2020)

Canary Kid said:



			I apologise if this has been addressed in the previous 54 pages, but I haven't read them all.   As a layman on handicap matters, one thing that puzzles me about the new system is that it states that your new handicap will be based on an average of the best 8 of the last 20 rounds.  But, in principle, the use of an average will lead to a handicap that one can play better than on 50% of occasions; e.g. if your best 8 are four rounds at 90 and four at 98, the handicap will be based on 94, but you can shoot 90 every other round.  I thought your handicap was meant to be you on a very good day.  Or should the wording be a *WEIGHTED* average; i.e. biased towards your best scores?
		
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I think the is a misunderstanding here.
There is a significant difference between your average of the *best* 8 and saying you can play better on 50% of *(all)* occasions. What about all the other scores? How many were worse than 90?
Will you actually play better than 90 every alternate time you play?


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## rulefan (Oct 11, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			I've a question. I've found a site that you can search and find all golf course slope ratings on. So I've checked some local ones. Macclesfield is rated higher than my place and amazingly higher than my last clubs. I can honestly say this is utter conkers. Three of Macc s par fours do not require a driver. In fact I can and have reached all four greens from the tee. So I do not trust these ratings. They are utter smelly stuff.  Who rated the course's????
		
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Do you mean Course Rating or Slope Rating?


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## Canary Kid (Oct 11, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I think the is a misunderstanding here.
There is a significant difference between your average of the *best* 8 and saying you can play better on 50% of *(all)* occasions. What about all the other scores? How many were worse than 90?
Will you actually play better than 90 every alternate time you play?
		
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They could be the only 8 cards put in ... in which case my hypothetical scenario will apply.  There is always a problem with using averages for a set of widely differing values.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 11, 2020)

Canary Kid said:



			They could be the only 8 cards put in ... in which case my hypothetical scenario will apply.  There is always a problem with using averages for a set of widely differing values.
		
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This is incorrect. If a golfer ONLY had 8 scores in, the Handicap Index is NOT the average of those 8 scores. Until 20 scores are provided, the system takes a specific number of submitted scores until 20 have been submitted, at which point it uses the best 8.

Once 20 scores are in, as rulefan says, the average of your best 8 is very different to the average of all 20 scores


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## Swango1980 (Oct 11, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			I've a question. I've found a site that you can search and find all golf course slope ratings on. So I've checked some local ones. Macclesfield is rated higher than my place and amazingly higher than my last clubs. I can honestly say this is utter conkers. Three of Macc s par fours do not require a driver. In fact I can and have reached all four greens from the tee. So I do not trust these ratings. They are utter smelly stuff.  Who rated the course's????
		
Click to expand...

Trained representatives from your golfing union would have done the measurements. Slope rating has nothing at all to do with the difficulty of the course, only the relative difficulty between low and high handicappers. You can have a very hard course (harder for everyone), but it really is more punishing for lower handicappers as all the obstacles are in play for them, but not quite for the higher handicappers. For example, if every par 4 and 5 had a lake about 210 yards from tee that could not be carried, you eliminate many low handicappers advantage of length, but dont really hurt the high handicapper who can only drive it 200 yards. That hard course could have a low slope. You could then have a course that is generally short and considered very easy. However, you have heavy rough or bunkers that extend from tee to about 180-200 yards forward from tee. Generally the low handicappers can hit it over all this and give themselves chips orr even putts for eagle, yet the high handicappers can get caught out by obstacles. So, easy course (still for everyone), but relatively harder for high handicappers and higher slope than first course.


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## jim8flog (Oct 11, 2020)

Canary Kid said:



			They could be the only 8 cards put in ... in which case my hypothetical scenario will apply.  There is always a problem with using averages for a set of widely differing values.
		
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if there are  only 8 cards in the system it is not the average of the best 8 it is the average of the lowest 2

It works like this if there are less than 20

*Number of qualifying scores and calculation*

3                      Lowest single score minus 2 shots
4                      Lowest single score minus 1 shot
5                      Lowest score
6                    Average of the lowest 2 scores minus 1 shot
7 to 8             Average of the lowest 2
9 to 11           Average of the lowest 3
12 to 14         Average of the lowest 4
15-16             Average of the lowest 5
17-18             Average of the lowest 6
19                  Average of the lowest  7
20 or more   Average of the lowest  8

it continues incrementally until there are 20 scores in the system.


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## Stuart_C (Oct 11, 2020)

Sorry if this has been answered but once the WHS comes in, will that be the end of Non Qualifying Comps?


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## ger147 (Oct 11, 2020)

Stuart_C said:



			Sorry if this has been answered but once the WHS comes in, will that be the end of Non Qualifying Comps?
		
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No.


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## Crazyface (Oct 11, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Do you mean Course Rating or Slope Rating?
		
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Slope. Macc is rated 7 points higher than where I am and 14 points higher than my last club. This is ridiculous in my opinion. I know it's hard to know if you never played the courses and think I'm nuts, most of you do, but honestly. As I say three of the par four holes at Macclesfield golf course I wouldn't take a driver, in a comp, as they can be done with ease with a flick 5 iron and flick PW. This for me is just stupid. And one of the par fours, wind with, I can also reach. Me, 240 off the tee. Rubbish ratings. I cannot do this at my current course of my last course. Both tough tough places. I'm sure there will be more anomolies out there.


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## Crazyface (Oct 11, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Trained representatives from your golfing union would have done the measurements. Slope rating has nothing at all to do with the difficulty of the course, only the relative difficulty between low and high handicappers. You can have a very hard course (harder for everyone), but it really is more punishing for lower handicappers as all the obstacles are in play for them, but not quite for the higher handicappers. For example, if every par 4 and 5 had a lake about 210 yards from tee that could not be carried, you eliminate many low handicappers advantage of length, but dont really hurt the high handicapper who can only drive it 200 yards. That hard course could have a low slope. You could then have a course that is generally short and considered very easy. However, you have heavy rough or bunkers that extend from tee to about 180-200 yards forward from tee. Generally the low handicappers can hit it over all this and give themselves chips orr even putts for eagle, yet the high handicappers can get caught out by obstacles. So, easy course (still for everyone), but relatively harder for high handicappers and higher slope than first course.
		
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Got that. But, in my opinion, they have got it seriously wrong at my local course. It's defence is that it's very hilly, a mate of mine hates it because of this, and sometimes the pin positions can be difficult. But when I played there for one season, I could get at least one birdie a round, sometimes more, and I NEVER get these.


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## ger147 (Oct 11, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Slope. Macc is rated 7 points higher than where I am and 14 points higher than my last club. This is ridiculous in my opinion. I know it's hard to know if you never played the courses and think I'm nuts, most of you do, but honestly. As I say three of the par four holes at Macclesfield golf course I wouldn't take a driver, in a comp, as they can be done with ease with a flick 5 iron and flick PW. This for me is just stupid. And one of the par fours, wind with, I can also reach. Me, 240 off the tee. Rubbish ratings. I cannot do this at my current course of my last course. Both tough tough places. I'm sure there will be more anomolies out there.
		
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Slope rating is not the measure of a course's difficulty relative to other courses. The measure to compare the relative difficulty of one course to another is the Course rating.


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## rulefan (Oct 11, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Slope rating is not the measure of a course's difficulty relative to other courses. The measure to compare the relative difficulty of one course to another is the Course rating.
		
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It never ceases to surprise me that the number of times this is posted on the Golf Monthly boards referring to WHS, people don't seem to understand. 

Slope simply indicates how difficult a particular set of tees at a particular course is for a high handicapper relative to a low handicapper.


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## ger147 (Oct 11, 2020)

rulefan said:



			It never ceases to surprise me that the number of times this is posted on the Golf Monthly boards referring to WHS, people don't seem to understand.

Slope simply indicates how difficult a particular set of tees at a particular course is for a high handicapper relative to a low handicapper.
		
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Nothing on these boards surprises me any more...


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## Swango1980 (Oct 11, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Got that. But, in my opinion, they have got it seriously wrong at my local course. It's defence is that it's very hilly, a mate of mine hates it because of this, and sometimes the pin positions can be difficult. But when I played there for one season, I could get at least one birdie a round, sometimes more, and I NEVER get these.
		
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I'm not sure you get it, when you then immediately follow that by talking about how difficult it is?

Playing of whites at mine is miles more difficult than yellows. Course Rating is almost 3 higher off whites than yellows unsurprisingly. However, Slope is very similar, 133 whites and 130 yellows.

I guess this makes sense. Two holes off yellows are about 350 yards, and have a dyke 120 yards carry off tee. Off whites, they are about 440 yards, and carry off tee is 210 yards. So, harder for everyone. Some might say those holes are easier for low handicapper, and in an absolute sense they are, as they are more likely able to play them as par 4's. Whereas many higher handicappers have no chance of getting to green in 2 off whites. However, relatively speaking, those holes are harder for lower handicappers. They suddenly become very tough par 4's, when off yellows they are fairly easy par 4's for them. However, for higher handicappers, they are a relatively easy "par 5", whereas off yellows they are still not a very likely chance to get a 4 anyway, as they are high handicappers


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## Mozza14 (Oct 11, 2020)

rulefan said:



			It never ceases to surprise me that the number of times this is posted on the Golf Monthly boards referring to WHS, people don't seem to understand.

Slope simply indicates how difficult a particular set of tees at a particular course is for a high handicapper relative to a low handicapper.
		
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Most likely this is because they may be researching the subject for the first time or interpreted slope to indicate degree of difficulty. 

I have followed the story quite well and for the majority of golfers, who are not scratch golfers, slope imho is indeed one measure of difficulty. It may not be the only measure, but if it is not, why are more shots being given to a 20 handicapper at the Brabazon rather than Oxley Park? It is because, for such a player that course is more difficult. The Course Rating may well be higher as well by a good amount but it is the combination of the two factors that represent difficulty for most golfers. So you can include me in those that 'don't seem to understand'.


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## larmen (Oct 11, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			if there are  only 8 cards in the system it is not the average of the best 8 it is the average of the lowest 2

It works like this if there are less than 20

*Number of qualifying scores and calculation*

3                      Lowest single score minus 2 shots
4                      Lowest single score minus 1 shot
5                      Lowest score
6                    Average of the lowest 2 scores minus 1 shot
7 to 8             Average of the lowest 2
9 to 11           Average of the lowest 3
12 to 14         Average of the lowest 4
15-16             Average of the lowest 5
17-18             Average of the lowest 6
19                  Average of the lowest  7
20 or more   Average of the lowest  8

it continues incrementally until there are 20 scores in the system.
		
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How does this relate to *net* double bogey?

I have 12 cards in and therefore I take my average of the best 4 rounds.
But does it cap each hole on what would have been a net db at the time with my congu handicap.
Or does it go gross db, so a par 4 is 6 max ...


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## rulefan (Oct 11, 2020)

larmen said:



			How does this relate to *net* double bogey?

I have 12 cards in and therefore I take my average of the best 4 rounds.
But does it cap each hole on what would have been a net db at the time with my congu handicap.
Or does it go gross db, so a par 4 is 6 max ...
		
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Net db is applicable. Rule 3.1b


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## Junior (Oct 12, 2020)

Crazyface said:



			Got that. But, in my opinion, they have got it seriously wrong at my local course. It's defence is that it's very hilly, a mate of mine hates it because of this, and sometimes the pin positions can be difficult. But when I played there for one season, I could get at least one birdie a round, sometimes more, and I NEVER get these.
		
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Which are the other courses CF?

I think Maccs defense are the greens (slopey and v.quick) and the funky lies due to it being on the side of a hill.   There's a few easier short holes as you say but its a tough start and a tough finish.   I play at Macc and another course thats a fair bit longer. I find Macc trickier.

Also, I think this reinforces what is being said re slope being about the difference in difficulty for a low handicap vs a high handicap because Maccs a fairly easy course to bogey your way around, but I've bounced between 5 and 6 this year and only had a handful of decent scores there.


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## Crazyface (Oct 12, 2020)

Junior said:



			Which are the other courses CF?

I think Maccs defense are the greens (slopey and v.quick) and the funky lies due to it being on the side of a hill.   There's a few easier short holes as you say but its a tough start and a tough finish.   I play at Macc and another course thats a fair bit longer. I find Macc trickier.

Also, I think this reinforces what is being said re slope being about the difference in difficulty for a low handicap vs a high handicap because Maccs a fairly easy course to bogey your way around, but I've bounced between 5 and 6 this year and only had a handful of decent scores there.
		
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Agreed regarding the greens and the "funky lies". But I'd have thought it would be rated for it's overall strength. The other two I'm thinking of are Styal, where I am currently, is a monster off whites and so tough, I decided to only play the required 3 rounds for H/C purposes this year and this was before all the mither we've had to endure. The other place is Westwood at Leek. If you've not played this I can highly recommend.  But it's a tough place to play. A high handicap player struggles round here. And as a mid H/C, I have struggled on many occasions. 50% of the holes can destroy your card.  Certainly most of the front nine, as I know for a fact.

Where do you play at normally? We should get together for a knock.


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## jamiet7682 (Oct 12, 2020)

My handicap has gone from 30 to 32 over night without swinging a club, could this be to do with move to WHS?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 12, 2020)

jamiet7682 said:



			My handicap has gone from 30 to 32 over night without swinging a club, could this be to do with move to WHS?
		
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Nope, WHS doesn't come into play until 2nd November. So, definitely nothing to do with that. Perhaps it is something to do with an official from the club deleting a competition in which you received a handicap cut, or it may have been done under Handicap Review (such as Continuous Review), but you should have been told the reason why if that was the case.


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## Old Skier (Oct 12, 2020)

jamiet7682 said:



			My handicap has gone from 30 to 32 over night without swinging a club, could this be to do with move to WHS?
		
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Your HC committee may have decided to do the Annual Review as they can legitimately start doing them in Oct.


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## jim8flog (Oct 12, 2020)

jamiet7682 said:



			My handicap has gone from 30 to 32 over night without swinging a club, could this be to do with move to WHS?
		
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 As others have said but the club is required to notify you of a handicap change you were not expecting. Check it out with your handicap secretary.


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## abjectplop (Oct 13, 2020)

How will declaring and submitting casual rounds work under WHS? Will there be an app or a terminal at every club where you declare pre round then punch in your score or will it vary from club to club??


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## Old Skier (Oct 13, 2020)

abjectplop said:



			How will declaring and submitting casual rounds work under WHS? Will there be an app or a terminal at every club where you declare pre round then punch in your score or will it vary from club to club??
		
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Most clubs if not all have terminals and pro shops and offices should be geared up to assist.


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## patricks148 (Oct 13, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Most clubs if not all have terminals and pro shops and offices should be geared up to assist.
		
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yes i think the Kings you sign on first on HDIDO as a supp score, i think they have an app too, though not used it myself


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## rulefan (Oct 13, 2020)

abjectplop said:



			How will declaring and submitting casual rounds work under WHS? Will there be an app or a terminal at every club where you declare pre round then punch in your score or will it vary from club to club??
		
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How does your club handle them now?

But it will vary from club to club: from fully manual to fully automated (including taking any fees from your online purse).


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## jim8flog (Oct 13, 2020)

abjectplop said:



			How will declaring and submitting casual rounds work under WHS? Will there be an app or a terminal at every club where you declare pre round then punch in your score or will it vary from club to club??
		
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 Where I play you have two options 
1. Sign in in the book in the proshop
2. Enter via an app


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## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			How does your club handle them now?

But it will vary from club to club: from fully manual to fully automated (including taking any fees from your online purse).
		
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At the moment, people have to e-mail me directly. Then, when round complete, they need to send me a photo of their scorecard, before posting it in box at club. It is a pain in the backside at times, but the PSI screen cannot be used due to Covid. Also, the way our club works, no realistic chance of getting them to register at club with staff, or give them their scores to enter. I was hoping the howdidido App would be developed so that it could all be done via that, with an easy way for handicap secs to do a regular check to ensure everything seemed to have been done reasonably. Although, I suppose the only issue is that 100% of golfers cannot be expected to enter the correct score 100% of the time. Given that some horrific mistakes have been made in the past from experienced golfers entering their scores after a competition on the PSI.


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## rulefan (Oct 13, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Where I play you have two options
1. Sign in in the book in the proshop
2. Enter via an app
		
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Which app? What ISV do you use?


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## upsidedown (Oct 13, 2020)

Perk of being a Director but our Match Chairman can now access the portal and I've gone from 4.7 to 3.2. My mate has gone from 4.9 to 3.1 😅
So around home course of Whites and Yellows will be 3 shots compared to 5 now. HI of 3.3 goes up to 4


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## Old Skier (Oct 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Which app? What ISV do you use?
		
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I suspect Club Systems as we have it on V1 via HDID app.


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## MendieGK (Oct 13, 2020)

Here is my list of scores. I can’t understand how there is no PCC adjustment when the course has clearly played harder than the course rating.... ridiculous.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 13, 2020)

I'm disappointed, looking at the players who have recently joined the club and got their initial handicaps, that the WHS has not taken into account the 3 cards/scores they submitted for their handicap as part of the handicap index calculation....we've now got a whole load of players who have joined in the last two months who wont have an index on November 2nd because the only three cards they've put in were the 3 they submitted for handicap...the WHS does not list these scores in those players records.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 13, 2020)

Personally I'm hoping that CSS isn't taken into account. We had reductions only last week and looking the same this - in pretty decent conditions. Ok so the course is playing longer than in Summer but basically way too many with a handicap they can't play to. If most went up a few shots we might get a genuine PCC and genuine handicaps. I lost my shot in the 7th last week despite being 1 over handicap!

So happy I don't give a monkeys about my handicap anymore


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## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			I'm disappointed, looking at the players who have recently joined the club and got their initial handicaps, that the WHS has not taken into account the 3 cards/scores they submitted for their handicap as part of the handicap index calculation....we've now got a whole load of players who have joined in the last two months who wont have an index on November 2nd because the only three cards they've put in were the 3 they submitted for handicap...the WHS does not list these scores in those players records.
		
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I noticed that with one guy I checked. I only checked, because his Initial Handicap was 3.0, and I needed authorisation from the County. He has no WHS Handicap. This will cause a big problem, because he is in the Winter Doubles League that started a few weeks ago. Come November, suddenly he will go from having a handicap of 3.0c, to no handicap at all. 

Hopefully this is just an initial glitch, otherwise handicap secretaries may have to start manually giving out handicaps???


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## nickjdavis (Oct 13, 2020)

another stupid thing I've just noticed...in the "Reports" section you can print off a table of "Playing Handicaps"...looking at the table, in the small print at the bottom it says "these playing handicaps have been calculated using a 100% handicap allowance".....so what's the point of that then??? No one needs a table to determine what their playing handicap is off full allowance......do they?

Would be far more useful if you were able to select the format or the % allowance and the system generated a table for that format.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I noticed that with one guy I checked. I only checked, because his Initial Handicap was 3.0, and I needed authorisation from the County. He has no WHS Handicap. This will cause a big problem, because he is in the Winter Doubles League that started a few weeks ago. Come November, suddenly he will go from having a handicap of 3.0c, to no handicap at all.

Hopefully this is just an initial glitch, otherwise handicap secretaries may have to start manually giving out handicaps???
		
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Is that because he is a new member and has just submitted an initial 3 cards for handicap?....none of my members who have just put in 3 cards for handicap have been allocated an index.

sorry...i assume yes (I didint notice you had quoted my post!!!)


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## jim8flog (Oct 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Which app? What ISV do you use?
		
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IG
Their own App


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## Old Skier (Oct 13, 2020)

Suggest we all email info@englandgolf.org with problems, (I think there is a WHS one but can’t find it) I found them helpful.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 13, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Suggest we all email info@englandgolf.org with problems, (I think there is a WHS one but can’t find it) I found them helpful.
		
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I already did. About the Handicap Index appearing wrong when you type players name in search bar. Also, that the Index next to individual rounds can be confusing, as it doesn't state whether it is the index pre or post round


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## jim8flog (Oct 13, 2020)

..
.


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## Old Skier (Oct 13, 2020)

I see it hasn’t fed through to the CDH database


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## Old Skier (Oct 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I already did. About the Handicap Index appearing wrong when you type players name in search bar. Also, that the Index next to individual rounds can be confusing, as it doesn't state whether it is the index pre or post round
		
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Will be interested in the answer for the 3 card initial handicap issue.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 13, 2020)

also noticed that if you run a handicap report for your club it lists a lot of players with a handicap index of "pending"....when you look at some (a minority i'll admit) players records in more detail, they do actually have an index allocated.


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## Old Skier (Oct 13, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			also noticed that if you run a handicap report for your club it lists a lot of players with a handicap index of "pending"....when you look at some (a minority i'll admit) players records in more detail, they do actually have an index allocated.
		
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My seniors handicap man didn’t appear on the Handicap list but does come up on a search


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## Old Skier (Oct 13, 2020)

Many questions on the Updating the England Golf platform so it might be useful if the dashboard problems go in there, just a thought.

https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/t...land-golf-platform.106881/page-2#post-2243698


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## rulefan (Oct 13, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I see it hasn’t fed through to the CDH database
		
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I don't think it will. The player's record structure is quite different.
See Appendix B in the book


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## rulefan (Oct 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I'm sure this will have been touched on already, so apologies, but it's only just hit my radar.

For individual strokeplay the playing allowance is 95% but for individual matchplay it's 100%. Why the difference, it seems odd?
		
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The data collected from around the world indicates that in stroke play higher handicappers have a slight advantage but conversely in match play the lower handicapper is more likely to win the than the higher handicapper. 

You may remember that CONGU published the following report that showed the then imbalance with 75% difference. It seems that the stats have not changed since it was changed to full difference some yeas ago.

_Numerous researchers and golfing bodies including the United States Golf Association, English Golf Union and Scottish Golf Union have investigated the relative merits of full versus three-quarters difference in handicap. All of these independent pieces of research have come to a single conclusion – full difference between the handicaps of the two players is clearly the more equitable allowance. 
A Scottish Golf Union survey covering 4000 handicap singles matches showed:                                                             
Matches won by lower handicap player
 - off 3/4 difference - 61%
 - off Full difference - 55%_
​_From the above it can be seen that even when conceding full difference the lower handicap player retains an advantage._


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## rulefan (Oct 14, 2020)

MendieGK said:



			Here is my list of scores. I can’t understand how there is no PCC adjustment when the course has clearly played harder than the course rating.... ridiculous.
		
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How


MendieGK said:



			Here is my list of scores. I can’t understand how there is no PCC adjustment when the course has clearly played harder than the course rating.... ridiculous.
		
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How can there be a PCC if the PCC system is not in force until Nov 2?
However the CSS is used for the transition instead.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 14, 2020)

rulefan said:



			How

How can there be a PCC if the PCC system is not in force until Nov 2?
*However the CSS is used for the transition instead*.
		
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There still appear to be serious doubts about this, as it doesn't look that way in the Portal the rest of us have looked at


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## rulefan (Oct 14, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			There still appear to be serious doubts about this, as it doesn't look that way in the Portal the rest of us have looked at
		
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I thought that the wrong 'handicap' being used was causing the issue.


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## Old Skier (Oct 14, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I don't think it will. The player's record structure is quite different.
See Appendix B in the book
		
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Are you saying the CDH database is now redundan, where would we get player’s information for opens


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## rulefan (Oct 14, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I get that so why penalise the high handicappers in strokeplay? What I don’t understand is why they’re different.
		
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1) The system is attempting to equalise winning opportunities for low and high cappers in stroke play.
2) Match play is quite a different game to stroke play. Tactics, psychology where strokes are given/taken. But that's what the figures tell them.


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## rulefan (Oct 14, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Are you saying the CDH database is now redundan, where would we get player’s information for opens
		
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WHS presumably. Unless the file format of the CDH is changed and they then have two repositories of the data. 1) The WHS where all the number crunching is done and stored and 2) A slave revamped dumb CDH.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2020)

I believe that if I do not let my club share by email address and DOB with EG then I will not be able to maintain a handicap index at the Club.  Not that I have any issue sharing that information - but is that the case?


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## IanM (Oct 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I believe that if I do not let my club share by email address and DOB with EG then I will not be able to maintain a handicap index at the Club.  Not that I have any issue sharing that information - is that the case?
		
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We've had an email to that effect from Wales Golf.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 15, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I believe that if I do not let my club share by email address and DOB with EG then I will not be able to maintain a handicap index at the Club.  Not that I have any issue sharing that information - is that the case?
		
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Yes, they asked clubs to update all that information a week or so ago on their ISVs, otherwise players would not get an Index. That caused much frustration and panic, given a lot of clubs had a lot of missing information they suddenly needed to provide.


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## yandabrown (Oct 15, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, they asked clubs to update all that information a week or so ago on their ISVs, otherwise players would not get an Index. That caused much frustration and panic, given a lot of clubs had a lot of missing information they suddenly needed to provide.
		
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I don't see how they justify requiring DOB. I cannot see which of the following can require a DOB (list of things that they use the personal information for, taken from EG WHC Privacy Notice):

• to provide you with your membership services;
• to calculate your handicap;
• to run golf competitions;
• to provide you with information that you request from us or which may be of interest to you;
• to notify you about changes to our services; 
• to provide member support;
• for research about our members’ behaviour and our services generally, and to report to bodies such as Sport England; and
• to develop and improve our services, website and platforms.


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## upsidedown (Oct 15, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			I don't see how they justify requiring DOB. I cannot see which of the following can require a DOB (list of things that they use the personal information for, taken from EG WHC Privacy Notice):

• to provide you with your membership services;
• to calculate your handicap;
• to run golf competitions;
• to provide you with information that you request from us or which may be of interest to you;
• to notify you about changes to our services;
• to provide member support;
• for research about our members’ behaviour and our services generally, and to report to bodies such as Sport England; and
• to develop and improve our services, website and platforms.
		
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I was told it's to differentiate between EG,David Brown and another David Brown at any one club


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## IanM (Oct 15, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Yes, they asked clubs to update all that information a week or so ago on their ISVs, otherwise players would not get an Index. That caused much frustration and panic, given a lot of clubs had a lot of missing information they suddenly needed to provide.
		
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Would have known this when the system requirements for the WHS were drawn up.  Would have been some time back.  Now they ask for it?  Who is running this project?      I can guess!



yandabrown said:



			I don't see how they justify requiring DOB. I cannot see which of the following can require a DOB
		
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I am waiting for a request for my preferred personal pronouns!!


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## Swango1980 (Oct 15, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			I don't see how they justify requiring DOB. I cannot see which of the following can require a DOB (list of things that they use the personal information for, taken from EG WHC Privacy Notice):

• to provide you with your membership services;
• to calculate your handicap;
• to run golf competitions;
• to provide you with information that you request from us or which may be of interest to you;
• to notify you about changes to our services;
• to provide member support;
• for research about our members’ behaviour and our services generally, and to report to bodies such as Sport England; and
• to develop and improve our services, website and platforms.
		
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I don't know. Does it help them determine what Section you are in (such as Seniors / Juniors), which feeds into what you may be interested in and conduct research on members behaviour?


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## yandabrown (Oct 15, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			I was told it's to differentiate between EG,David Brown and another David Brown at any one club
		
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That's what an email does, surely? I am quite sure that there are several others with the same first name, last name and DOB as myself.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 15, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			I was told it's to differentiate between EG,David Brown and another David Brown at any one club
		
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That should be true, although I suppose the e-mail address should do that, as I don't believe they allow shared e-mail addresses for multiple golfers?


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## upsidedown (Oct 15, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			That's what an email does, surely? I am quite sure that there are several others with the same first name, last name and DOB as myself.
		
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Yes , you'd think so. For the multiple DOB and same names the  email will do that so why the DOB , I don't know , just passing on what i was told .


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Oct 15, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			Yes , you'd think so. For the multiple DOB and same names the  email will do that so why the DOB , I don't know , just passing on what i was told .
		
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Two factor authentication if you wish to go onto the system yourself?  Email is your Username and DOB is your Password?


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## jim8flog (Oct 15, 2020)

..


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## jim8flog (Oct 15, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I get that so why penalise the high handicappers in strokeplay? What I don’t understand is why they’re different.
		
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As I understand it it is about maintaining a similar difference between the two players

Take 3 players one with a HI of 10 another with a HI of 20 playing and a third with 30 and average course with a slope rating of 125

So there is 10 shots difference in their ability using HIs

Roughly with a 95% allowance

The 10 stays at 10 
The 20 goes to 21
The 30 goes to 31

so it is actually the lowest handicap player that is the worst off. Without the 95% he would now be 2 shots worse off compared to the 30 handicapper.


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## rulefan (Oct 15, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			As I understand it it is about maintaining a similar difference between the two players

Take 3 players one with a HI of 10 another with a HI of 20 playing and a third with 30 and average course with a slope rating of 125

So there is 10 shots difference in their ability using HIs

Roughly with a 95% allowance

The 10 stays at 10
The 20 goes to 21
The 30 goes to 31

so it is actually the lowest handicap player that is the worst off. Without the 95% he would now be 2 shots worse off compared to the 30 handicapper.
		
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What would be the situation without 95%. That surely is the criterion


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## jim8flog (Oct 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			What would be the situation without 95%. That surely is the criterion
		
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 11 22 33


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## nickjdavis (Oct 15, 2020)

Date of Birth is needed for one reason and one reason only.

So that the authorities have a means of measuring the mean/median/mode age of golfers at the beginning of the WHS and say 2 years down the line....this will allow them to proudly proclaim that the WHS has achieved one of its indirect aims of getting more and younger people playing golf. I can think of no other reason for needing the data. 

DoB is not a 100% reliable way of differentiating between two golfers of the same name. If they wanted to do that then they surely would use the CDH number of the player?


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## rulefan (Oct 15, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			DoB is not a 100% reliable way of differentiating between two golfers of the same name. If they wanted to do that then they surely would use the CDH number of the player?
		
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May be they are hoping to eliminate duplicates that have come from all the duplicates/triplicates already in the CDH.

I know, I know: clubs are supposed to have cleansed their files but it been very hit and miss. Many clubs haven't responded either through shortage of handicap c'ees. h'cap secs, disinterested owners or sheer indifference. I'm in the middle of 2 cases at the moment and sorted a couple last month. The current cases involve 'the lady in the office' getting approved membership applications from 'the boss/owner', then putting new members into the membership system and then the handicap system without checking anything.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 15, 2020)

We didn't even have a comprehensive list of members emails until last weekend. Sure they were all on the clubs email distribution list and maybe 25% were on the Handicapping software system (we dont use the handicapping system as a membership database). The committee sent the club a list of all members on our Handicap Software and got the "lady in the office" (in our case one of the girls behind the bar) to look up the paper forms that members filled in when they joined.

I guess its an issue where the business operations of the club (bar, restaurant, golf course management) is run and managed separately from the competitions/handicapping side of the club (largely undertaken by volunteers).

As a committee we feel we have actually been ahead of the curve in respect of a lot of the migration of the WHS but boy the "authorities" have made it a lot harder for us than it could have been.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 16, 2020)

Kaz said:



			I'm sure this will have been touched on already, so apologies, but it's only just hit my radar.

For individual strokeplay the playing allowance is 95% but for individual matchplay it's 100%. Why the difference, it seems odd?
		
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My thinking is as follows:

If you had a scratch golfer, and took their best 8 scores, there probably wouldn't be much variation between them, they'd all be pretty close to the average of them (I.e. their Index). So, if s scratch golfer scored their best round in 20, it may not be significantly better than their Index.

For a golfer with, say a 30 Index, the spread of their best 8 would be higher than the scratch golfer, so there would be more variation around their index. Therefore, for their best round (or 2 or 3 rounds) in 20, their score would be lower under their index than the scratch golfer shot when they scored their best in 20.

As a result, although a scratch golfer will generally find themselves higher up the leaderboard than the higher handicapper, they are less likely to be top of it because, even if they shoot their best round in 20, they won't beat a higher handicappers best round in 20. This becomes more likely as the field size grows.

The above would be my concern with WHS, but perhaps the research shows the 95% addresses this problem.

Matchplay is a different format. A higher handicapper may lose a shot hole. They may win a shot hole by 2 shots. In both cases they don't use their shot, and cannot carry it over and use it on another hole. Therefore, the lower handicapper tends to have more of an advantage in that respect.


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 16, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			That's what an email does, surely? I am quite sure that there are several others with the same first name, last name and DOB as myself.
		
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Could it possibly used as a means of securely resetting as password if forgotten?


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## rulefan (Oct 16, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			My thinking is as follows:

If you had a scratch golfer, and took their best 8 scores, there probably wouldn't be much variation between them, they'd all be pretty close to the average of them (I.e. their Index). So, if s scratch golfer scored their best round in 20, it may not be significantly better than their Index.

For a golfer with, say a 30 Index, the spread of their best 8 would be higher than the scratch golfer, so there would be more variation around their index. Therefore, for their best round (or 2 or 3 rounds) in 20, their score would be lower under their index than the scratch golfer shot when they scored their best in 20.

As a result, although a scratch golfer will generally find themselves higher up the leaderboard than the higher handicapper, they are less likely to be top of it because, even if they shoot their best round in 20, they won't beat a higher handicappers best round in 20. This becomes more likely as the field size grows.

The above would be my concern with WHS, but perhaps the research shows the 95% addresses this problem.

Matchplay is a different format. A higher handicapper may lose a shot hole. They may win a shot hole by 2 shots. In both cases they don't use their shot, and cannot carry it over and use it on another hole. Therefore, the lower handicapper tends to have more of an advantage in that respect.
		
Click to expand...

That is spot on.
Both North America and Australia had a Bonus for Excellence (96% & 93%) built in to to the base handicap. But that affected matchplay also and other stats showed that the lower capper won 55% of matches without the bonus.


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## Ethan (Oct 16, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			My thinking is as follows:

If you had a scratch golfer, and took their best 8 scores, there probably wouldn't be much variation between them, they'd all be pretty close to the average of them (I.e. their Index). So, if s scratch golfer scored their best round in 20, it may not be significantly better than their Index.

For a golfer with, say a 30 Index, the spread of their best 8 would be higher than the scratch golfer, so there would be more variation around their index. Therefore, for their best round (or 2 or 3 rounds) in 20, their score would be lower under their index than the scratch golfer shot when they scored their best in 20.

As a result, although a scratch golfer will generally find themselves higher up the leaderboard than the higher handicapper, they are less likely to be top of it because, even if they shoot their best round in 20, they won't beat a higher handicappers best round in 20. This becomes more likely as the field size grows.

The above would be my concern with WHS, but perhaps the research shows the 95% addresses this problem.

Matchplay is a different format. A higher handicapper may lose a shot hole. They may win a shot hole by 2 shots. In both cases they don't use their shot, and cannot carry it over and use it on another hole. Therefore, the lower handicapper tends to have more of an advantage in that respect.
		
Click to expand...

This is the reason that handicaps are pitched at your 75th percentile score not the 50th, because the variability is greater for higher handicaps, so when they are off they are way off, but when they are on, they would win most of the time. The 95% is a refinement of it.


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## IanM (Oct 16, 2020)

And Kaz, tales abound over there of some "well known faces" who have been shooting well above their general range for several months in preparation of next year's Opens.  "Cheats Charter" is what it's getting called.

I have a Wales Golf "Players Briefing" Webinar at 5pm tonight - last time it crashed.  I am looking forward to feeling impressed and confident about next month.  I wonder if that will be the case come 6pm?


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## IanMcC (Oct 16, 2020)

IanM said:



			And Kaz, tales abound over there of some "well known faces" who have been shooting well above their general range for several months in preparation of next year's Opens.  "Cheats Charter" is what it's getting called.

I have a Wales Golf "Players Briefing" Webinar at 5pm tonight - last time it crashed.  I am looking forward to feeling impressed and confident about next month.  I wonder if that will be the case come 6pm?
		
Click to expand...

I am sitting in on that as well. It is described as 'An easy to understand presentation which will explain the introduction of the WHS and how to use it for your golf from November 2nd.' I have my doubts.....


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## Bdill93 (Oct 16, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Now that the penny is starting to drop on how handicaps are going to be worked out I must admit to being concerned.

It seems the general expectation is low handicappers will see a cut when their handicap index comes out and high handicappers an increase (possibly several shots).

Now looking at course handicaps (for my course) I see that someone with a HI 1 will have a course handicap of 1 but someone with a HI 26 (for example) will have a course handicap of 30. We have a few players in the high twenties/early thirties who already regularly clean up in comps, particularly non-counting formats. These players are going to be getting a shedload of extra shots under WHS. The whole system seems unfairly skewed.

Add in that they are under no compunction to ever submit a handicap counting card again.... Seems very wrong.
		
Click to expand...

Dont forget that stroke play will be played at 95% of handicap. I know it doesnt make a massive difference but the HI 26 would play off 28.5 (29) not 30 in medals etc. Tends to create a loss of one shot on average from playing handicaps but anyone over PH of 30 will lose more than 1!


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## IanM (Oct 16, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			I am sitting in on that as well. It is described as 'An easy to understand presentation which will explain the introduction of the WHS and how to use it for your golf from November 2nd.' I have my doubts.....
		
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Where are you based?

I hope they don't rerun bits of the old presentation about how wonderful this all is and how it will enable everyone to  play evenly with everyone else.   In their defence, I think if you forget the maths, don't interrogate it  and just use the Apps and table it'll be fine.   There have always been handicap cheats at Opens.  Normal folk just go for the cheap green fee... and clap politely at the 46 point scoring winner!


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## nickjdavis (Oct 16, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Could it possibly used as a means of securely resetting as password if forgotten?
		
Click to expand...

why dont they ask you to set your own security question...name of pet, first girl/boyfriends name, favourite sweet in a bag of Revels?

nah...i dont buy it Mike


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## IanMcC (Oct 16, 2020)

IanM said:



			Where are you based?

I hope they don't rerun bits of the old presentation about how wonderful this all is and how it will enable everyone to  play evenly with everyone else.   In their defence, I think if you forget the maths, don't interrogate it  and just use the Apps and table it'll be fine.   There have always been handicap cheats at Opens.  Normal folk just go for the cheap green fee... and clap politely at the 46 point scoring winner! 

Click to expand...

I am M&H at Rhuddlan. Im not expecting much tonight. It all seems a bit up in the air at the moment.
Just a bit worried that England Golf are starting to have access to the WHS Platform, although it seems riddled with anomalies, whilst we are hearing nothing.
On your second point, I had to DQ a pair of lads recently in a 4BBB Open. One had a proper handicap, but the other 'just put down 16'. Of course, he played like a Cat 1 player! 
I dont mind people with no handicaps playing in our Opens to get a cheap round, so long as they dont expect to pick up a prize.


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## woofers (Oct 16, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Now looking at course handicaps (for my course) I see that someone with a HI 1 will have a course handicap of 1 but someone with a *HI 26 (for example) will have a course handicap of 30.* 

Add in that they are under no compunction to ever submit a handicap counting card again.... Seems very wrong.
		
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For that to be the case your Slope Rating must be around 130? So what handicap are they currently? Remember, current handicaps have to have an element of de-sloping applied to arrive at the HI.

Final point, surely the winners of said competitions are competing in acceptable score events and the card will count.


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## jim8flog (Oct 16, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Now that the penny is starting to drop on how handicaps are going to be worked out I must admit to being concerned.

It seems the general expectation is low handicappers will see a cut when their handicap index comes out and high handicappers an increase (possibly several shots).

Now looking at course handicaps (for my course) I see that someone with a HI 1 will have a course handicap of 1 but someone with a HI 26 (for example) will have a course handicap of 30. We have a few players in the high twenties/early thirties who already regularly clean up in comps, particularly non-counting formats. These players are going to be getting a shedload of extra shots under WHS. The whole system seems unfairly skewed.

Add in that they are under no compunction to ever submit a handicap counting card again.... Seems very wrong.
		
Click to expand...

 Does your club not operate divisions

Ours are mainly based upon the numbers in each group
We a have 
up to 10 
11-16 
17 and above

Means that generally like are competing against like.


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## Ethan (Oct 16, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Now that the penny is starting to drop on how handicaps are going to be worked out I must admit to being concerned.

It seems the general expectation is low handicappers will see a cut when their handicap index comes out and high handicappers an increase (possibly several shots).

Now looking at course handicaps (for my course) I see that someone with a HI 1 will have a course handicap of 1 but someone with a HI 26 (for example) will have a course handicap of 30. We have a few players in the high twenties/early thirties who already regularly clean up in comps, particularly non-counting formats. These players are going to be getting a shedload of extra shots under WHS. The whole system seems unfairly skewed.

Add in that they are under no compunction to ever submit a handicap counting card again.... Seems very wrong.
		
Click to expand...

I am not sure. The course handicap is really the one that is closest to the current, with the difficulty of the course baked in. At our course we have few higher handicaps who clean up, it is mostly those up to 10 or so.


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## IanM (Oct 16, 2020)

Wales Golf "player" briefing webinar at 5pm today............. clicked link.  Dead screen.  If this over subscribed or just another foul-up???

Time to get some professionals working on this please folks....  I am 15 mins from Celtic Manor, if you want me to fix it!  

EDIT: Finally got in using the access codes right at the end of the email , not the link listed as "click here to join!!"    - so the clue wasn't in the title.  

What I have seen so far has been written by rules boffins!   My HI will (he says) be available on WG App in a week...then he says "hopefully!" 

Now they have a very dull table about the average of your differentials!


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## IanM (Oct 16, 2020)

Best think he said so far is "leave it to the software!"


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## IanMcC (Oct 16, 2020)

No revelations on the webinar so far, except that we can expect access to the WHS Portal in a week or so. There is a section later on the transition. Maybe some news there.


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## IanM (Oct 16, 2020)

In fairness to Wales Golf... they are not doing too bad! Bit wobbly on the mix of detail. but maybe I am over sensitive to this due to my job!

In short... leave it to the software!  Otherwise you'll get a headache!


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## IanMcC (Oct 16, 2020)

Indeed. No real option not to leave it to the software, as it is too complex. 
Wales Golf doing fine, but no real new facts so far.
Nice to have confirmation that CH needed to avoid DQ.


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## IanMcC (Oct 16, 2020)

Apparently access to Wales Golf Club House Platform has been available for M&H since Monday. No emails to me or the office so far.


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## IanM (Oct 16, 2020)

The WHS thread mirrors all the rules-queries threads!  Millions of rounds are played without the sort of twaddle that the rules-nerds argue about.  

Most folk will log on, look at the tables and play golf as normal and without incident.  

If you look under the bonnet to try and work out how it all works, there will be carnage as 1186 posts in here testify!   

Bit like the TV ... you press the button and sit and watch it.  No one cares how the magic pictures appear on screen!


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## Wabinez (Oct 17, 2020)

IanM said:



			Bit like the TV ... you press the button and sit and watch it.  No one cares how the magic pictures appear on screen! 

Click to expand...


this sums it up for me. Whilst happy to know some basics and definitions etc...just plug the numbers into a screen and see what happens. Will need to know more about comps being at 95% or 85% or whatever...but ultimately get my index (which I know to be lower than I want 😂) turn up to a course and play (after consulting the boards about how many shots I don’t get)


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## Ross61 (Oct 17, 2020)

Wabinez said:



			this sums it up for me. Whilst happy to know some basics and definitions etc...just plug the numbers into a screen and see what happens. Will need to know more about comps being at 95% or 85% or whatever...but ultimately get my index (which I know to be lower than I want 😂) turn up to a course and play (after consulting the boards about how many shots I don’t get)
		
Click to expand...

I very much doubt if you are logging to the screen that you will need to look at charts and know about 95% or 85%. The screen will just tell you what your playing handicap is for whatever format of play the comp has been set up at.

When I recently played a greensome event, upon entering our names into the
System it told us what our handicap was. Which was automatically set for 60% lowest handicap and 40% highest handicap. Under WHS it will be no different


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## Kennysarmy (Oct 18, 2020)

WHS goes live on Nov 2, but when can you find out what your handicap will be?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 18, 2020)

Kennysarmy said:



			WHS goes live on Nov 2, but when can you find out what your handicap will be?
		
Click to expand...

Clubs got access to WHS platform last week. I believe all other golfers get access tomorrow


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## abjectplop (Oct 18, 2020)

Any word on what's happening in Scotland?!


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## jim8flog (Oct 18, 2020)

IanM said:



			Bit like the TV ... you press the button and sit and watch it.  No one cares how the magic pictures appear on screen! 

Click to expand...

Yes I gave up on that when they stopped putting pipes in the back for the steam.


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## Mozza14 (Oct 18, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Clubs got access to WHS platform last week. I believe all other golfers get access tomorrow
		
Click to expand...

How do we do that? I signed up to England Golf ' My Account ' but is that where I will see it?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 18, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			How do we do that? I signed up to England Golf ' My Account ' but is that where I will see it?
		
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Personally, I'm not sure. I suspect they will send put a global email to all members with instructions. This was sent to club officials last week.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 18, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			How do we do that? I signed up to England Golf ' My Account ' but is that where I will see it?
		
Click to expand...

The WHS portal is separate from the EG site. No one knows how you will be invited...the authorities haven't communicated how they intend to invite golfers to access the WHS system. Maybe folks who have got an EG "my account" will get an email telling them where to go, maybe EG will tell clubs to email all their members....maybe the WHS site which may or may not have been populated with everyone's email addresses will automatically send folks an invite to come and have a look and see what all the fuss is about.


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## upsidedown (Oct 18, 2020)

I 'm guessing an email or it will appear in HDID alongside "Handicap" ?


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## ger147 (Oct 18, 2020)

abjectplop said:



			Any word on what's happening in Scotland?!
		
Click to expand...

Not heard a thing, no.


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## Kennysarmy (Oct 19, 2020)

Mate saw our handicap & comps sec. today, was advised he now knows all the new handicap indexes and we will be advised of them next week.
(mate is off 17.4 and was told his index sees him stay off 17)


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## azazel (Oct 19, 2020)

abjectplop said:



			Any word on what's happening in Scotland?!
		
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I've had three or four emails from Scottish Golf about the WHS over the last few weeks, including one today. Today's email is a link to their new awareness campaign and confirms that the WHS will be launched in Scotland on November 2nd.


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## patricks148 (Oct 19, 2020)

i worked mine out and it came out as 5 dead, on the plus side my 20 round is my lowest, which was a score of 73 gross, so when that drops off my next best, assuming a don't hit a score my first round of 2021, i'll go up by at least 6 shots.......11 here i come


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## jim8flog (Oct 19, 2020)

IG are apparently briefing all their clubs today via zoom meetings.


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## Ethan (Oct 19, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i worked mine out and it came out as 5 dead, on the plus side my 20 round is my lowest, which was a score of 73 gross, so when that drops off my next best, assuming a don't hit a score my first round of 2021, i'll go up by at least 6 shots.......11 here i come

Click to expand...

What is your current 9th best score, soon to be 8th best unless you better it next time out?


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## Mozza14 (Oct 19, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i worked mine out and it came out as 5 dead, on the plus side my 20 round is my lowest, which was a score of 73 gross, so when that drops off my next best, assuming a don't hit a score my first round of 2021, i'll go up by at least 6 shots.......11 here i come

Click to expand...

I would hazard a guess that you have made a mistake.


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## patricks148 (Oct 19, 2020)

Ethan said:



			What is your current 9th best score, soon to be 8th best unless you better it next time out?
		
Click to expand...

my next best outside of the 8, is 6 over dif gross


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## rulefan (Oct 19, 2020)

Kennysarmy said:



			Mate saw our handicap & comps sec. today, was advised he now knows all the new handicap indexes and we will be advised of them next week.
(mate is off 17.4 and was told his index sees him stay off 17)
		
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I doubt that your h&c sec was correct. The data used for the trial conversion was taken from the CDH on 5 October. Any scores returned since will not be accounted for and the question of CSS is still being investigated by EG and dotgolf.


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## Ethan (Oct 19, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			my next best outside of the 8, is 6 over dif gross
		
Click to expand...

OK, so if you lose the 73 and replace it with a 77(?) in your best 8, then the HI rises by 0.5 (77-73/8), I reckon, par 71 at Nairn according to card. That is a tight group, though. If you shoot better than 77 next time out, proportionately less increase.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Oct 19, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i worked mine out and it came out as 5 dead, on the plus side my 20 round is my lowest, which was a score of 73 gross, so when that drops off my next best, assuming a don't hit a score my first round of 2021, i'll go up by at least 6 shots.......11 here i come

Click to expand...

I'm expecting about 27, although any score below 95 ish next couple of rounds should see a huge drop 🤣🤣


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## Billysboots (Oct 19, 2020)




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## Canary Kid (Oct 19, 2020)

Billysboots said:



View attachment 32980

Click to expand...

I’m with you Billyboots.  I’ve lost the will to live.  I’m going to accept whatever handicap I get and submit a few cards asap to refine it.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 19, 2020)

Regarding the PCC adjustment....when a course is shared by two clubs (e.g. a main club and an Artisans section) is just one Playing Conditions Calculation made for all scores returned over that course for the day...or would two separate PCC's be calculated, one for each "club" ?

Someone asked me elsewhere and its not something that I've considered but I guess it may be very relevant in some areas...for example I believe that the Montrose course has three different clubs associated with it (or it did when I played it in 2012!!)

I guess the logical thing is "one course, one PCC" but my experience so far with the WHS is one that sometimes defies logical explanation!!!


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## IanM (Oct 19, 2020)

Wales has gone back into full lockdown, allegedly the West Govt were allowing golf, but Wales golf said NO to bUG more time to sort out WHS! 

...other versions are available...


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Oct 19, 2020)

Sixty One pages of WHS facts, theories, and disagreements.......and I'm still no wiser, and I don't think I'm alone.
I'm only 20 years into golf, I started quite late in life, but I have NEVER found the present Congu system to be far out. I could explain the system of .1 upwards, and reductions etc etc fairly easily to a new golfer. I couldn't begin to explain the WHS to anyone!! How do we bring new players into this wonderful game when it's as complicated as it seems to be? I don't want my handicap to change at each course I go to. I accept a real challenge at a difficult course in the same way I hope to make hay on an easier course. And Patricks148 reckoning that he will go from 5 up to 11.......even if he is wrong, it still makes it a mockery if a 5 handicapper can't work it out. Anyone fancy playing a 5 handicapper off 11? It's complete balderdash!


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## jim8flog (Oct 20, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Regarding the PCC adjustment....when a course is shared by two clubs (e.g. a main club and an Artisans section) is just one Playing Conditions Calculation made for all scores returned over that course for the day...or would two separate PCC's be calculated, one for each "club" ?

Someone asked me elsewhere and its not something that I've considered but I guess it may be very relevant in some areas...for example I believe that the Montrose course has three different clubs associated with it (or it did when I played it in 2012!!)

I guess the logical thing is "one course, one PCC" but my experience so far with the WHS is one that sometimes defies logical explanation!!!
		
Click to expand...

If all the clubs use the same computer system it is one PCC generally.

There is the possibility of two PCCs if there is a serious difference in weather conditions during two parts of the day or if there are two competitions with very different ability golfers in each comp e.g. a Scratch comp with all very low single players and and normal club comp open to all members.


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## jim8flog (Oct 20, 2020)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			Sixty One pages of WHS facts, theories, and disagreements.......and I'm still no wiser, and I don't think I'm alone.
I'm only 20 years into golf, I started quite late in life, but I have NEVER found the present Congu system to be far out. I could explain the system of .1 upwards, and reductions etc etc fairly easily to a new golfer. I couldn't begin to explain the WHS to anyone!! How do we bring new players into this wonderful game when it's as complicated as it seems to be? I don't want my handicap to change at each course I go to. I accept a real challenge at a difficult course in the same way I hope to make hay on an easier course. And Patricks148 reckoning that he will go from 5 up to 11.......even if he is wrong, it still makes it a mockery if a 5 handicapper can't work it out. Anyone fancy playing a 5 handicapper off 11? It's complete balderdash!
		
Click to expand...


As someone who has played a lot at away courses particularly in competitions/matches having my handicap adjusted according to the difficulty of the course is a big plus for me and the same has been said by many of the club teams players.

Have you ever tried to explain to a new player (and a lot of existing ones as seen on this forum) why 36 point in stableford is not playing to handicap and why the have seen their handicap go up 0.1 when they have shot 36 points?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 20, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			As someone who has played a lot at away courses particularly in competitions/matches having my handicap adjusted according to the difficulty of the course is a big plus for me and the same has been said by many of the club teams players.

Have you ever tried to explain to a new player (and a lot of existing ones as seen on this forum) why 36 point in stableford is not playing to handicap and why the have seen their handicap go up 0.1 when they have shot 36 points?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, a lot. But, the same conversation will still be required to some extent, as 36 points will still not be playing to handicap. Sadly, I think a lot of golfers (outside this forum and outside Committees) believe that the WHS changes things so that 36 points will be playing to handicap. This may well be true in countries where they account for the difference between Par and CR in the course handicap calculation, but will not apply in the UK.


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## Bdill93 (Oct 20, 2020)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			Sixty One pages of WHS facts, theories, and disagreements.......and I'm still no wiser, and I don't think I'm alone.
I'm only 20 years into golf, I started quite late in life, but I have NEVER found the present Congu system to be far out. I could explain the system of .1 upwards, and reductions etc etc fairly easily to a new golfer. I couldn't begin to explain the WHS to anyone!! How do we bring new players into this wonderful game when it's as complicated as it seems to be? I don't want my handicap to change at each course I go to. I accept a real challenge at a difficult course in the same way I hope to make hay on an easier course. And Patricks148 reckoning that he will go from 5 up to 11.......even if he is wrong, it still makes it a mockery if a 5 handicapper can't work it out. Anyone fancy playing a 5 handicapper off 11? It's complete balderdash!
		
Click to expand...

I'm a new golfer, dont think its transition has been thought out the best possible way, but I like the idea of more shots at harder courses personally. My old mans a steady 12 at our home course, he needs 16/18 on some of the other local courses to even be near competing in stableford (between friends not comps).  Kind of the only real major benefit of the new system in my opinion though!! Buffer zones are easy to understand, as is the SSS and CSS. But then my two mates who are also new have no clue about it all, im just a geek who likes to know these things! Everyone will grow to understand WHS.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 20, 2020)

Bdill93 said:



			I'm a new golfer, dont think its transition has been thought out the best possible way, but I like the idea of more shots at harder courses personally. My old mans a steady 12 at our home course, he needs 16/18 on some of the other local courses to even be near competing in stableford (between friends not comps).  Kind of the only real major benefit of the new system in my opinion though!! Buffer zones are easy to understand, as is the SSS and CSS. But then my two mates who are also new have no clue about it all, im just a geek who likes to know these things! Everyone will grow to understand WHS.
		
Click to expand...

Your old man who is a steady 12 handicapper will, in all probabilty, not play off 12 at one course and even as high as 16 at another. For that to be true, he'd have to be playing at one of the easiest courses in the UK, with a slope of about 113. If he then went to play one of the hardest courses in the UK, with a slope of about 150, his 12 handicap could increase to 16 (certainly not 18). However, in all likelihood, with a handicap of around 12, he shouldn't see his course handicap fluctuate much more than 1 or 2 shots either way.


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## Bdill93 (Oct 20, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Your old man who is a steady 12 handicapper will, in all probabilty, not play off 12 at one course and even as high as 16 at another. For that to be true, he'd have to be playing at one of the easiest courses in the UK, with a slope of about 113. If he then went to play one of the hardest courses in the UK, with a slope of about 150, his 12 handicap could increase to 16 (certainly not 18). However, in all likelihood, with a handicap of around 12, he shouldn't see his course handicap fluctuate much more than 1 or 2 shots either way.
		
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I dont expect that either, but hes only got 4 cards in so far in his golfing career, so his 12 may increase to 13/14 when its best 8/20. If he submitted his last few rounds theyd be all over the shop but hes got a back issue at present!


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## patricks148 (Oct 20, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			As someone who has played a lot at away courses particularly in competitions/matches having my handicap adjusted according to the difficulty of the course is a big plus for me and the same has been said by many of the club teams players.

Have you ever tried to explain to a new player (and a lot of existing ones as seen on this forum) why 36 point in stableford is not playing to handicap and why the have seen their handicap go up 0.1 when they have shot 36 points?
		
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we already have this though in comps, its called the CSS and Visitor CSS. i play plenty of opens and have never felt hard done by or i should get extra shots because the CSS takes care of that. also if im visiting another course for a bounce game i go by the SSS to see if i play to handicap... simples. as for club matches the same, its a challenge to beat someone else on their home course.

on the plus side i'm looking forward to playing off 11 by the 2nd week of April, it will be a shock to my oppo at Dornoch next match


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## 94tegsi (Oct 20, 2020)

In regards to telling a non golfer, as always it’s all in how you explain it...

It’s based on the average score of your 8 best scores in your last 20 rounds. With an adjustment based on the relative difficulty of the course you played compared to others.

I don’t think that is too difficult to understand. It’s us experienced golfers that complicate the general principle of it.


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## azazel (Oct 20, 2020)

94tegsi said:



			In regards to telling a non golfer, as always it’s all in how you explain it...

It’s based on the average score of your 8 best scores in your last 20 rounds. With an adjustment based on the relative difficulty of the course you played compared to others.

I don’t think that is too difficult to understand. It’s us experienced golfers that complicate the general principle of it.
		
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Which is fair enough, until you then try to explain to them why they should only get 95% of their course handicap if they're playing in a singles strokeplay competition.


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Oct 20, 2020)

94tegsi said:



			In regards to telling a non golfer, as always it’s all in how you explain it...

It’s based on the average score of your 8 best scores in your last 20 rounds. With an adjustment based on the relative difficulty of the course you played compared to others.

I don’t think that is too difficult to understand. It’s us experienced golfers that complicate the general principle of it.
		
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If it is THAT easy, how come there's 62 pages of discussion on the subject? IMHO it is not that easy.


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## IanM (Oct 20, 2020)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			If it is THAT easy, how come there's 62 pages of discussion on the subject? IMHO it is not that easy.
		
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The high level explanation of it is easy... and the post gives a good one.... BUT - we have 62 pages of detail that will probably come out in the wash eventually!!    (Eg I have a spreadsheet and I worked out my HI as 12.765656, the email arrived and I am 13.1 why is this???   Exactly how hard is a "hard-cap?"  Would it hurt id someone hit me with it?     Our slope is only 136, surely it should be 137!!   )


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## IainP (Oct 20, 2020)

Probably already been posted, but if not...

Looks like R&A have put their own wrapper on the course rating DB
https://www.randa.org/chc-lookup

Doesn't default to USA so that's an improvement 🙂

Other stuff also on herehttps://www.randa.org/en/worldhandicapsystem


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## Bdill93 (Oct 20, 2020)

IanM said:



			The high level explanation of it is easy... and the post gives a good one.... BUT - we have 62 pages of detail that will probably come out in the wash eventually!!    (Eg I have a spreadsheet and I worked out my HI as 12.765656, the email arrived and I am 13.1 why is this???   Exactly how hard is a "hard-cap?"  Would it hurt id someone hit me with it?     Our slope is only 136, surely it should be 137!!   )
		
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You've had your email?


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## lobthewedge (Oct 20, 2020)

I dont have a clue how it all works, and not really interested.

Just go out and shoot as low as you can, the rest will sort itself.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 20, 2020)

IanM said:



			The high level explanation of it is easy... and the post gives a good one.... BUT - we have 62 pages of detail that will probably come out in the wash eventually!!    (Eg I have a spreadsheet and I worked out my HI as 12.765656, the email arrived and I am 13.1 why is this???   Exactly how hard is a "hard-cap?"  Would it hurt id someone hit me with it?     Our slope is only 136, surely it should be 137!!   )
		
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The high level explanation of the current system is even easier. It goes something like "you have one handicap, whatever course you play". If asked how is it calculated, you can simply say "the more you shoot under handicap, the more it will decrease, whereas if you shoot worse than a specified buffer of handicap, it goes up 0.1". You could of course add more detail if requested, but it is all fairly straight forward.

A high level explanation of WHS is straightforward, albeit less so than the CONGU high level explanation. It is the detail that gets more complex, hence the length of this thread. There will still be lots of things that will puzzle golfers. Such as, why their handicap doesn't go up much, or at all at courses that are absolutely harder than their own, why 95% is used for Playing Handicap for medal but not match play (I understand it, but it will be one of the most common questions once all golfers get wind of it), why Scotland use exact Course Handicap, whilst the rest of the UK use Course Handicap to a whole number before converting to Playing Handicap, etc. Players will also need to get used to tracking their last 20 scores, otherwise they might be surprised when they sometimes shoot a round better than handicap, and then their Index goes up, not down.


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## rulefan (Oct 20, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			why Scotland use exact Course Handicap, whilst the rest of the UK use Course Handicap to a whole number before converting to Playing Handicap
		
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Other than geeks, who will actually know?


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## Grant85 (Oct 20, 2020)

The more I think about it, the more the WHS makes sense and is good in terms of giving the 'correct' number of shots for people around certain courses. 

Of course people will take some adjustment to the change, in terms of feeling like they can't work out their handicap or they are not sure how a certain score will impact their handicap until well after they have finished playing. 

I also hope the slope rating will encourage people to think more carefully about the course they are playing, and the set of tees and people won't always be as keen to play the back tees.


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## rulefan (Oct 20, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			in terms of feeling like they can't work out their handicap or they are not sure how a certain score will impact their handicap until well after they have finished playing.
		
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With WHS they will know early in the following morning. Under CONGU they will know some time after the comp has been closed. Which might be after the weekend.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 20, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Other than geeks, who will actually know?
		
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People that play in both Scotland and England? I know it may not apply to many. However, one cannot say a major benefit of the WHS is that handicaps are portable around the world (which England Golf do, plenty), but then say some of the inconsistent oddities will not really have an impact on anyone. At a guess, I would suspect that more people in the UK play golf in both Scotland and England more often than people that play golf in UK and somewhere else in the world. That is just a hunch though


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## Swango1980 (Oct 20, 2020)

rulefan said:



			With WHS they will know early in the following morning. Under CONGU they will know some time after the comp has been closed. Which might be after the weekend.
		
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There is a fairly simple mathematical approach, that requires little effort, in working out what ones CONGU handicap is likely to be before a competition is closed. However, in most cases (at my club anyway), competitions are closed not long after the last group has submitted their scores, so golfers will get to see their new handicap long before midnight.

There are some golfers who usually hand around after a comp, and after a good round there is a little buzz for them in terms of what we think their new handicap will be. We tell them, based on predicted CSS being SSS, and then this is usually confirmed before they go home anyway (extra exciting if they get an Exceptional Scoring Reduction). I guess this can still happen to some extent, it will just require logging into the app, and getting a calculator out if their top 8 is likely to change.


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## rulefan (Oct 20, 2020)

The last groups in most of our comps finish well after the pro shop has closed. The pro closes the comps and currently checks the cards for nrs etc. My impression is is that many smaller clubs don't have people available to handle closing until Monday or if a midweek until a few days later.


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## MendieGK (Oct 20, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I doubt that your h&c sec was correct. The data used for the trial conversion was taken from the CDH on 5 October. Any scores returned since will not be accounted for and the question of CSS is still being investigated by EG and dotgolf.
		
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Is this CSS point along the same lines as my complaint last week? Sorry I can’t seen previous comments around this.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 20, 2020)

Seems our Lady Captain has received her handicap index and included it in this weeks news to try and help others in advance when they received theirs:

_The red tees have been given a slope rating of 133. Your handicap index is not the handicap you will be playing of here, as the slope rating has to be taken into account. As an example my current handicap is 27.2. I have been informed my handicap index is calculated to be 25.8, however because of the slope rating at our course I will be actually be playing off 30. _

If that is accurate then I'm hoping the number of "reductions only" or high CSS will change if in general the handicaps might more reflect the ability and/or course difficulty? We have had years (certainly the 4 since I've been there) where the handicap system and annual reviews etc haven't been followed 100% correctly ("she has been cut a shot because she is better than she shows in medals" "she's worked so hard and deserves the cut" etc etc. Never mind hardly any increases due to CHR.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 20, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			Seems our Lady Captain has received her handicap index and included it in this weeks news to try and help others in advance when they received theirs:

_The red tees have been given a slope rating of 133. Your handicap index is not the handicap you will be playing of here, as the slope rating has to be taken into account. As an example my current handicap is 27.2. I have been informed my handicap index is calculated to be 25.8, however because of the slope rating at our course I will be actually be playing off 30. _

If that is accurate then I'm hoping the number of "reductions only" or high CSS will change if in general the handicaps might more reflect the ability and/or course difficulty? We have had years (certainly the 4 since I've been there) where the handicap system and annual reviews etc haven't been followed 100% correctly ("she has been cut a shot because she is better than she shows in medals" "she's worked so hard and deserves the cut" etc etc. Never mind hardly any increases due to CHR.
		
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There will be no reductions only comps (days). On days where the conditions are truly horrific, which are hopefully few and far between, these scores are likely just going to fall outside the best 8 rounds of a player.

Of course, if handicap committees are going to start messing with player handicaps based on notional ideas such as "such a player has worked hard so deserves one", or "such a player won a comp, so we'll give them a bit of an extra cut", than it could still effect the PCC for the day (i.e. the CSS as it is known now). However, given PCC is worked out for everyone playing on the course that day, rather than just people playing in a competition, then maybe the impact would be less severe on PCC than CSS.

Also, it will be interesting how Reviews will work, and if it will be as easy or feel as comfortable for handicap committees to start altering player handicaps. Under CONGU, it is a simple case of changing the handicap number. Under WHS, the handicap index can also be changed, but that has implications on the previous 20 rounds, as it is no longer based on the average of the best 8. An additional adjustment is required. And, given golfers can get a more detailed view on their handicap and scoring history, and their peers also have a view of this, then the handicap committee might be held more to account if they start making further tweaks outside these scores, without very good reason.


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## jim8flog (Oct 20, 2020)

Bdill93 said:



			I dont expect that either, but hes only got 4 cards in so far in his golfing career, so his 12 may increase to 13/14 when its best 8/20. If he submitted his last few rounds theyd be all over the shop but hes got a back issue at present! 

Click to expand...

If he has only got 4 in to date he can expect his Handicap Index to jump around all over the over the place until he gets about 16 in.


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## jim8flog (Oct 20, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The last groups in most of our comps finish well after the pro shop has closed. The pro closes the comps and currently checks the cards for nrs etc. My impression is is that many smaller clubs don't have people available to handle closing until Monday or if a midweek until a few days later.
		
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 Our Friday Saturday and Sunday comps are not closed until Monday generally speaking, it is an office function and not the pro shops (although the pros are being trained up to do it).
Weekday comps get closed the day after the comp.


 Unless somebody is being really keen, the Club Captain sometimes gets on with it.


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## jim8flog (Oct 20, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			If that is accurate then I'm hoping the number of or high CSS will change if in general the handicaps might more reflect the ability and/or course difficulty? We have had years (certainly the 4 since I've been there) where the handicap system and annual reviews etc haven't been followed 100% correctly ("she has been cut a shot because she is better than she shows in medals" "she's worked so hard and deserves the cut" etc etc. Never mind hardly any increases due to CHR.
		
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 This certainly sounds true if some of that has been going on.

Mind you Annual Reviews are more of an art than a science.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 20, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			There will be no reductions only comps (days). On days where the conditions are truly horrific, which are hopefully few and far between, these scores are likely just going to fall outside the best 8 rounds of a player.

Of course, if handicap committees are going to start messing with player handicaps based on notional ideas such as "such a player has worked hard so deserves one", or "such a player won a comp, so we'll give them a bit of an extra cut", than it could still effect the PCC for the day (i.e. the CSS as it is known now). However, given PCC is worked out for everyone playing on the course that day, rather than just people playing in a competition, then maybe the impact would be less severe on PCC than CSS.

Also, it will be interesting how Reviews will work, and if it will be as easy or feel as comfortable for handicap committees to start altering player handicaps. Under CONGU, it is a simple case of changing the handicap number. Under WHS, the handicap index can also be changed, but that has implications on the previous 20 rounds, as it is no longer based on the average of the best 8. An additional adjustment is required. And, given golfers can get a more detailed view on their handicap and scoring history, and their peers also have a view of this, then the handicap committee might be held more to account if they start making further tweaks outside these scores, without very good reason.
		
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Thanks so much for that. I think it will be a huge improvement as currently players are getting cuts when playing outside handicap too often and other players aren't going up when they should. It may take some time but hopefully the smoothing of the handicap will result in something more accurate.


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## AmandaJR (Oct 20, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			This certainly sounds true if some of that has been going on.

Mind you Annual Reviews are more of an art than a science.
		
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True. A major influence on things not being strictly to the rules "cut, cut, cut" has moved on so that's also going to improve things. When your buffer is 1 then any lift to the CSS is hugely advantageous.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 20, 2020)

Lots of people on here who know a lot about this 

My handicap sec told me that we will be getting an app from golf England where we can enter a handicap for any round to update your index so long as you stick to the rules of golf 

Is this true?


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## jim8flog (Oct 20, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Lots of people on here who know a lot about this

My handicap sec told me that we will be getting an app from golf England where we can enter a handicap for any round to update your index so long as you stick to the rules of golf

Is this true?
		
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 You are allowed to use any round provided it is played in accordance with the Rules of Golf at your home or any other club but it must be preregistered as per  submitting a Supplementary Score at present.


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## pauljames87 (Oct 20, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			You are allowed to use any round provided it is played in accordance with the Rules of Golf at your home or any other club but it must be preregistered as per  submitting a Supplementary Score at present.
		
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I like the idea of that, thanks for that


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## 94tegsi (Oct 20, 2020)

I’m assuming that under WHS we have no need for annual reviews or exceptional increases/decreases. We just need everyone to encourage cards being submit more regularly?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 20, 2020)

94tegsi said:



			I’m assuming that under WHS we have no need for annual reviews or exceptional increases/decreases. We just need everyone to encourage cards being submit more regularly?
		
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Annual Reviews will still be very much of the process. After all, some players may still play a lot of match play golf, and rarely submit an acceptable score.

There will still be Exceptional Decreases as well, from memory if a player shoots 7-10 under their Handicap Index, they get an extra -1.0, if they shoot even better than that, they get 2.0 extra cut


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Annual Reviews will still be very much of the process. After all, some players may still play a lot of match play golf, and rarely submit an acceptable score.

There will still be Exceptional Decreases as well, from memory if a player shoots 7-10 under their Handicap Index, they get an extra -1.0, if they shoot even better than that, they get 2.0 extra cut
		
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This is a more dynamic faster responding handicap system. I don't think the extra cuts are therefore necessary or fit well with that.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 20, 2020)

Ethan said:



			This is a more dynamic faster responding handicap system. I don't think the extra cuts are therefore necessary or fit well with that.
		
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The review may not need to be as rigorous, but it will still need to deal with culprits who avoid posting acceptable rounds, and do well in other formats.

Also, if a player posts 15-20 scores in 2 or 3 months, resulting in their Index going up 5 shots (and course handicap 6 or so shots), a review can result in a safety net for any areas of concern like that


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## Vikingman (Oct 20, 2020)

Staying with the annual review theme, would it be advisable to do this years before or after the switchover?

If this years review is done prior to the switchover will it get taken into account or will the system just use submitted scores?

If its done after how would the adjustment be made, are we going down the line of -1 off each score or whatever?


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## 94tegsi (Oct 20, 2020)

Cheers


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## IanM (Oct 20, 2020)

Bdill93 said:



			You've had your email? 

Click to expand...

No , I was kidding...


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## TheDiablo (Oct 20, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			we already have this though in comps, its called the CSS and Visitor CSS. i play plenty of opens and have never felt hard done by or i should get extra shots because the CSS takes care of that. also if im visiting another course for a bounce game i go by the SSS to see if i play to handicap... simples. as for club matches the same, its a challenge to beat someone else on their home course.

on the plus side i'm looking forward to playing off 11 by the 2nd week of April, it will be a shock to my oppo at Dornoch next match

Click to expand...

Surely someone has told you by now that you are MASSIVELY wrong on this?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 20, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Guys,

I've looked but can't find the posts, but in one of many WHS threads, there was chat recently that Cat 1s are currently allowed to submit Supplementary scores outside of the normal restrictions (which previously only allowed Supps for the purpose of retaining "C" status).  This is relevant to me as I have less than 20 scores in.

Having raised this with my GM, and in turn the County Sec and his colleagues, nobody is aware of any temporary change, so could anyone who thinks there's a rule currently in place please advise on the specifics??

Many thanks in advance 👍.
		
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Under WHS, Category 1 means nothing, there are no categories. So, that restriction in regards to supplementary scores (or acceptable scores from social golf) will not apply.


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## SteveJay (Oct 20, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Guys,

I've looked but can't find the posts, but in one of many WHS threads, there was chat recently that Cat 1s are currently allowed to submit Supplementary scores outside of the normal restrictions (which previously only allowed Supps for the purpose of retaining "C" status).  This is relevant to me as I have less than 20 scores in.

Having raised this with my GM, and in turn the County Sec and his colleagues, nobody is aware of any temporary change, so could anyone who thinks there's a rule currently in place please advise on the specifics??

Many thanks in advance 👍.
		
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Accepting the comment above about Cat 1 going under WHS, I assume you mean before November. If so at our club we are allowing Cat 1 golfers to submit supplementaries in the same way as the rest of us, until WHS comes in. One of my playing partners is in the same position as you, which is why I know this (as it doesn't affect me ),


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## patricks148 (Oct 20, 2020)

TheDiablo said:



			Surely someone has told you by now that you are MASSIVELY wrong on this?
		
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which bit??


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## TheDiablo (Oct 20, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			which bit??
		
Click to expand...

The bit that there is no way you can jump from 5 to 11 in a single round


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## patricks148 (Oct 20, 2020)

TheDiablo said:



			The bit that there is no way you can jump from 5 to 11 in a single round
		
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what will happen then when my 20th score off 73(CSS of 73) is replaced by a score or 6 higher?


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## jim8flog (Oct 20, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Guys,

I've looked but can't find the posts, but in one of many WHS threads, there was chat recently that Cat 1s are currently allowed to submit Supplementary scores outside of the normal restrictions (which previously only allowed Supps for the purpose of retaining "C" status).  This is relevant to me as I have less than 20 scores in.

Having raised this with my GM, and in turn the County Sec and his colleagues, nobody is aware of any temporary change, so could anyone who thinks there's a rule currently in place please advise on the specifics??

Many thanks in advance 👍.
		
Click to expand...

 From other posts it would be too late now anyway. CONGU scores are already being converted to WHS scores and all scores during next 12 days will be held over.


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## jim8flog (Oct 20, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			what will happen then when my 20th score off 73(CSS of 73) is replaced by a score or 6 higher?
		
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Did you skip arithmetic at skool.


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## patricks148 (Oct 20, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Did you skip arithmetic at skool.
		
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i think its you that missed that, whats 5 plus 6??


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## Swango1980 (Oct 20, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Someone said that from September, last month, current Cat 1s can put in supplementaries until the WHS starts.
		
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Interesting, not a message I have picked up on. Also, I know Club V1 doesn't accept entry of a Cat 1 supplementary score, but not sure if they lift that restriction off season


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## Swango1980 (Oct 20, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			what will happen then when my 20th score off 73(CSS of 73) is replaced by a score or 6 higher?
		
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Your index will increase by 0.8 x 113/Slope . So, less than 0.8 most likely


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## patricks148 (Oct 20, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Your index will increase by 0.8
		
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how so? my best score is my 20th and my next best outside the best 8 is 6 over the css, so that score will replace the best, if i'd had another poor score this year my best would not be counted so the average would have been higher.

how do they work that out that its 0.8?


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			The review may not need to be as rigorous, but it will still need to deal with culprits who avoid posting acceptable rounds, and do well in other formats.

Also, if a player posts 15-20 scores in 2 or 3 months, resulting in their Index going up 5 shots (and course handicap 6 or so shots), a review can result in a safety net for any areas of concern like that
		
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OK, but the WHS equivalent of an ESR is not targeted at people who essentially cheat their handicap. The basic statistics handling of the WHS should avoid the old problem where someone has a low handicap they can't play to anymore but their move to a more suitable handicap is slowed by the 0.1 limit on increases per round. WHS reflects recent play much more strongly.


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			what will happen then when my 20th score off 73(CSS of 73) is replaced by a score or 6 higher?
		
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If a 73 is replaced by a 79, then that 79 forms part of the 8 scores which are averaged, so the handicap goes up 0.75 (6/8), i.e. 0.8. But then next time you go out and shoot a 72, that 79 falls out again and your handicap drops 7/8, i.e. 0.9. So the handicap will swing around a bit more then the old system.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 20, 2020)

Ethan said:



			OK, but the WHS equivalent of an ESR is not targeted at people who essentially cheat their handicap. The basic statistics handling of the WHS should avoid the old problem where someone has a low handicap they can't play to anymore but their move to a more suitable handicap is slowed by the 0.1 limit on increases per round. WHS reflects recent play much more strongly.
		
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True, but I was only making the point that Reviews are not binned into history.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 20, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			how so? my best score is my 20th and my next best outside the best 8 is 6 over the css, so that score will replace the best, if i'd had another poor score this year my best would not be counted so the average would have been higher.

how do they work that out that its 0.8?
		
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I was just doing the calculation quickly in my head. My assumption was your best score would be wiped out by a score 6 shots higher. As Index is an average of 8, then that broadly is an increase in 6/8, which is 0.75. But, this would be desloped also, so probably around an increase of 0.7ish


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## TheDiablo (Oct 20, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			i think its you that missed that, whats 5 plus 6??

Click to expand...

Yeah you're not coming out well from this


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## TheDiablo (Oct 20, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			what will happen then when my 20th score off 73(CSS of 73) is replaced by a score or 6 higher?
		
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Unless your 9th best score is 48 shots more than the score it is replacing then you cannot move by 6, regardless of the cap at 5 increases in a year anyway


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## patricks148 (Oct 20, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I was just doing the calculation quickly in my head. My assumption was your best score would be wiped out by a score 6 shots higher. As Index is an average of 8, then that broadly is an increase in 6/8, which is 0.75. But, this would be desloped also, so probably around an increase of 0.7ish
		
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where does the cap come from?  the best score diff is 6 shots so the way i was told to work it out the 6 replaces the 0, thats how i got the 6 shot increase, so can you only got up by X once the initial handicap is workd out??


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## jim8flog (Oct 20, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			where does the cap come from?  the best score diff is 6 shots so the way i was told to work it out the 6 replaces the 0, thats how i got the 6 shot increase, so can you only got up by X once the initial handicap is workd out??
		
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6 replaces 0 = 6/8 = .75 increase


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## Ethan (Oct 20, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			where does the cap come from?  the best score diff is 6 shots so the way i was told to work it out the 6 replaces the 0, thats how i got the 6 shot increase, so can you only got up by X once the initial handicap is workd out??
		
Click to expand...

The Handicap Index comes form 8 scores averaged, so replacing one of the 8 with a score 1 shot worse adds 1/8 to the Handicap Index, so replacing a 73 with a 79 adds 6 x 1/8 which rounds to 0.8 in new money. 

If you are a handicap watcher, then it is worth knowing what your next score to expire is and whether it is one of the best 8. If it is one of the best 8, then once you submit another score, that 8th best will be replaced by the current 9th best or the score you have just submitted, whichever is better. 

My next 3 scores to be replaced are crap scores, so I can't do my handicap any harm, but the 4th one is one of the 8, albeit towards the bottom end of the 8, so I need to replace or better it to keep my handicap. Of course, I can do that in the next 3.


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## patricks148 (Oct 20, 2020)

Ethan said:



			The Handicap Index comes form 8 scores averaged, so replacing one of the 8 with a score 1 shot worse adds 1/8 to the Handicap Index, so replacing a 73 with a 79 adds 6 x 1/8 which rounds to 0.8 in new money.

If you are a handicap watcher, then it is worth knowing what your next score to expire is and whether it is one of the best 8. If it is one of the best 8, then once you submit another score, that 8th best will be replaced by the current 9th best or the score you have just submitted, whichever is better.

My next 3 scores to be replaced are crap scores, so I can't do my handicap any harm, but the 4th one is one of the 8, albeit towards the bottom end of the 8, so I need to replace or better it to keep my handicap. Of course, I can do that in the next 3.
		
Click to expand...

thanks looks like i won't be getting 11 then..., is there any cap on how much you can increase?

we have guy who lives in the states, when he comes over for the summer, he always has a vastly diff handicap than when he was over the year before


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## Swango1980 (Oct 20, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			thanks looks like i won't be getting 11 then..., is there any cap on how much you can increase?

we have guy who lives in the states, when he comes over for the summer, he always has a vastly diff handicap than when he was over the year before
		
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Maximum of 5 higher than lowest Index in last year. But, once it increases above 3.0, any other increase is halved, until it is hard capped at 5


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## patricks148 (Oct 20, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Maximum of 5 higher than lowest Index in last year. But, once it increases above 3.0, any other increase is halved, until it is hard capped at 5
		
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so in theory i could get up to 10 then?


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## Grant85 (Oct 21, 2020)

rulefan said:



			With WHS they will know early in the following morning. Under CONGU they will know some time after the comp has been closed. Which might be after the weekend.
		
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Absolutely, but I mean that people are used to being able to work out their adjustment after holing out... albeit making assumptions about CSS. While you'll still be able to do this, it will be slightly harder to work out than with the current system.


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## Chinny (Oct 21, 2020)

First Post on Forum... Here Goes... Generally looking forward to WHS and enjoying most of the comments on the forum but let my throw this spanner into the works.
Imagine Course Handicap is 12 so in a singles Comp players Playing Handicap would be 11 (12 x 95% = 11.4 rounded to 11) 
In a Stableford Comp player would lose their shot on Stroke Index 12 (Let’s say the hole is a par 4)
In the Comp the player would score 1point for a bogey and zero points for a double bogey.
However, for handicap purposes only the player still retains their full 12 shots whilst calculating the Score Differential for this round of golf so in this case its very important to hole out on stroke index 12 if you can achieve at least a double bogey for zero points ( if you can’t get at least a 6 then pick up and move on)
In summary if you Hole out on stroke index 12 for a six you will get zero points in Comp but you will get a net bogey for handicap purposes rather than a net double bogey for not completing the hole. 
If you tap in that 6 inch putt for a 6 even though you can’t score it will be recorded as a six
If you pick up that 6 inch putt your score for handicap purposes will be recorded as a net double bogie ie SEVEN
Sorry for going on but needed explaining. 
Stay Safe


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## Swango1980 (Oct 21, 2020)

Chinny said:



			First Post on Forum... Here Goes... Generally looking forward to WHS and enjoying most of the comments on the forum but let my throw this spanner into the works.
Imagine Course Handicap is 12 so in a singles Comp players Playing Handicap would be 11 (12 x 95% = 11.4 rounded to 11)
In a Stableford Comp player would lose their shot on Stroke Index 12 (Let’s say the hole is a par 4)
In the Comp the player would score 1point for a bogey and zero points for a double bogey.
However, for handicap purposes only the player still retains their full 12 shots whilst calculating the Score Differential for this round of golf so in this case its very important to hole out on stroke index 12 if you can achieve at least a double bogey for zero points ( if you can’t get at least a 6 then pick up and move on)
In summary if you Hole out on stroke index 12 for a six you will get zero points in Comp but you will get a net bogey for handicap purposes rather than a net double bogey for not completing the hole.
If you tap in that 6 inch putt for a 6 even though you can’t score it will be recorded as a six
If you pick up that 6 inch putt your score for handicap purposes will be recorded as a net double bogie ie SEVEN
Sorry for going on but needed explaining.
Stay Safe
		
Click to expand...

All very true. And, as much as members need to be very aware of this, I did not include that in my bullet point list to all members to give them the run down of it. It was complicated enough giving them the basics without frying their brains, so adding in those details just seemed a step too far at this stage


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## rulefan (Oct 21, 2020)

That why the RBs say your Course Handicap must be the one on the card.


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## IanMcC (Oct 21, 2020)

Chinny said:



			First Post on Forum... Here Goes... Generally looking forward to WHS and enjoying most of the comments on the forum but let my throw this spanner into the works.
Imagine Course Handicap is 12 so in a singles Comp players Playing Handicap would be 11 (12 x 95% = 11.4 rounded to 11)
In a Stableford Comp player would lose their shot on Stroke Index 12 (Let’s say the hole is a par 4)
In the Comp the player would score 1point for a bogey and zero points for a double bogey.
However, for handicap purposes only the player still retains their full 12 shots whilst calculating the Score Differential for this round of golf so in this case its very important to hole out on stroke index 12 if you can achieve at least a double bogey for zero points ( if you can’t get at least a 6 then pick up and move on)
In summary if you Hole out on stroke index 12 for a six you will get zero points in Comp but you will get a net bogey for handicap purposes rather than a net double bogey for not completing the hole.
If you tap in that 6 inch putt for a 6 even though you can’t score it will be recorded as a six
If you pick up that 6 inch putt your score for handicap purposes will be recorded as a net double bogie ie SEVEN
Sorry for going on but needed explaining.
Stay Safe
		
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Good first post, as stated earlier. Our members are used to this already, somewhat. We run midweek stablefords, where men and women can both enter. Because of the differences between Par and SSS on the ladies and gents courses, the men get 2 shots added to their handicap to give them a Competition Handicap of 2 greater than their normal Handicap. Interestingly, in a strokeplay event, because par is not an issue, it is the Ladies who receive shots over the men. Moral of the story, hole out unless you are greater than nett double bogey on any hole, or at least know where you are with the Competition Handicap, soon to become Playing Handicap.


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## IainP (Oct 21, 2020)

patricks148 said:



			..

we have guy who lives in the states, when he comes over for the summer, he always has a vastly diff handicap than when he was over the year before
		
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Congratulations! You've found someone who'll benefit from the new system 😉😁🤣


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## IainP (Oct 21, 2020)

Kaz said:



			Good first post. And... yikes!!!
		
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Guess there may be a risk that a number of members take the position I can't be doing remembering all this, I'll just putt out everything....and a stableford becomes a medal.
Be interesting to see how it pans out.


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## hairball_89 (Oct 21, 2020)

IainP said:



			Guess there may be a risk that a number of members take the position I can't be doing remembering all this, I'll just putt out everything....and a stableford becomes a medal.
Be interesting to see how it pans out.
		
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But then, surely, using the above example you just check *course* handicap, and putt out to there. SI 13+ don't bother. So a sort of yes and no!


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## jim8flog (Oct 21, 2020)

Grant85 said:



			Absolutely, but I mean that people are used to being able to work out their adjustment after holing out... albeit making assumptions about CSS. While you'll still be able to do this, it will be slightly harder to work out than with the current system.
		
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 If you are the sort of person who keeps a note of their last 20,  what falls off and what it is replaced by and your best 8 you would know if the score you just had is likely to affect the calculation.

If you know it does - quick check to see which score it replaced (if appropriate) work out the difference between the two divide by 8 and that is the HI change. Slightly more than the current system but not arduous.

Lets face it you do not really *need* to know the information until next time you play (another game on the day is played with the same HI).


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## Grant85 (Oct 21, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			If you are the sort of person who keeps a note of their last 20,  what falls off and what it is replaced by and your best 8 you would know if the score you just had is likely to affect the calculation.
		
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From what I hear listening to podcasts and picking up on the golf culture in the US, a lot of people do this. They know their 20th score that's dropping off (if it's a counter or not) they know the highest score that's counting towards their average. 

Obviously golf culture is different there as there is much less in the way of club and competition golf. So most weekly golfers are simply playing against themselves every week to try and get their handicap down.


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## upsidedown (Oct 21, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			If you are the sort of person who keeps a note of their last 20,  what falls off and what it is replaced by and your best 8 you would know if the score you just had is likely to affect the calculation.

If you know it does - quick check to see which score it replaced (if appropriate) work out the difference between the two divide by 8 and that is the HI change. Slightly more than the current system but not arduous.

Lets face it you do not really *need* to know the information until next time you play (another game on the day is played with the same HI).
		
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That was me in NZ, always knew exactly where I was re handicap, although the slight difference was it only changed every 2 weeks


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## IanM (Oct 21, 2020)

Chinny said:



			First Post on Forum... Here Goes... Generally looking forward to WHS and enjoying most of the comments on the forum but let my throw this spanner into the works.
Imagine Course Handicap is 12 so in a singles Comp players Playing Handicap would be 11 (12 x 95% = 11.4 rounded to 11)
In a Stableford Comp player would lose their shot on Stroke Index 12 (Let’s say the hole is a par 4)
In the Comp the player would score 1point for a bogey and zero points for a double bogey.
*However, for handicap purposes only the player still retains their full 12 shots whilst calculating the Score Differential for this round of golf so in this case its very important to hole out on stroke index 12 if you can achieve at least a double bogey for zero points ( if you can’t get at least a 6 then pick up and move on)*
In summary if you Hole out on stroke index 12 for a six you will get zero points in Comp but you will get a net bogey for handicap purposes rather than a net double bogey for not completing the hole.
If you tap in that 6 inch putt for a 6 even though you can’t score it will be recorded as a six
If you pick up that 6 inch putt your score for handicap purposes will be recorded as a net double bogie ie SEVEN
Sorry for going on but needed explaining.
Stay Safe
		
Click to expand...

Excellent post.  

Further proof If needed) that this was devised by folk who don't really like playing golf but love "lording" it over others with the knowledge of the rules.  Why have a process where a player has to take something like that into consideration.    Most players won't realise it, then when they do, they'll stop picking up "in case" they mess something up.


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## jamiet7682 (Oct 21, 2020)

jamiet7682 said:



			My handicap has gone from 30 to 32 over night without swinging a club, could this be to do with move to WHS?
		
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Clause 23 amendment seemingly. Seems odd. Only played 3 rounds since getting h/cap. One was an NR as lost card going round.


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## rulefan (Oct 21, 2020)

jamiet7682 said:



			Clause 23 amendment seemingly. Seems odd. Only played 3 rounds since getting h/cap. One was an NR as lost card going round.
		
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If the committee have changed your handicap then they must tell you.


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## jamiet7682 (Oct 21, 2020)

rulefan said:



			If the committee have changed your handicap then they must tell you.
		
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Havent heard anything, ill give the club a call in the morning.


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## Tommy10 (Oct 22, 2020)

Here are my 8 best from 22 this season off the whites, can someone help me work out what my HI should be?

Course rating is 71.9 and slope is 132. I used an online calculator and got it to work out as HI of 19.2 with course handicap of 24. Any help appreciated.

91
93
94
94
94
95
97
97

CSS was 72 on the days I scored all of above. Current handicap is 21.9


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## Swango1980 (Oct 22, 2020)

Tommy10 said:



			Here are my 8 best from 22 this season off the whites, can someone help me work out what my HI should be?

Course rating is 71.9 and slope is 132. I used an online calculator and got it to work out as HI of 19.2 with course handicap of 24. Any help appreciated.

91
93
94
94
94
95
97
97

CSS was 72 on the days I scored all of above. Current handicap is 21.9
		
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Index looks correct. However, Course Handicap = 19.2 x 132/113 = 22


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## Tommy10 (Oct 22, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Index looks correct. However, Course Handicap = 19.2 x 132/113 = 22
		
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Appreciate the reply, thank you 

So i'll go below 20 overnight, love this new system


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## IanMcC (Oct 22, 2020)

Tommy10 said:



			Here are my 8 best from 22 this season off the whites, can someone help me work out what my HI should be?

Course rating is 71.9 and slope is 132. I used an online calculator and got it to work out as HI of 19.2 with course handicap of 24. Any help appreciated.

91
93
94
94
94
95
97
97

CSS was 72 on the days I scored all of above. Current handicap is 21.9
		
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I make your index to be 26.2. But that is dependant on a couple of factors. You didnt say if you scored over a nett double bogey on any of the days. That would bring the score down slightly. Also, the calculation was using Course Rating only. I believe the software people are trying to incorporate CSS also. Phew!


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## Whereditgo (Oct 22, 2020)

Tommy10 said:



			Here are my 8 best from 22 this season off the whites, can someone help me work out what my HI should be?

Course rating is 71.9 and slope is 132. I used an online calculator and got it to work out as HI of 19.2 with course handicap of 24. Any help appreciated.

91
93
94
94
94
95
97
97

CSS was 72 on the days I scored all of above. Current handicap is 21.9
		
Click to expand...

As others have posted above, assuming you have corrected any 'disaster' holes to Nett double bogey and those 8 scores are in your last 20 (you put "8 from 22").


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## upsidedown (Oct 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



			That why the RBs say your Course Handicap must be the one on the card.
		
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Would "strokes received " be acceptable ?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 22, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			I make your index to be 26.2. But that is dependant on a couple of factors. You didnt say if you scored over a nett double bogey on any of the days. That would bring the score down slightly. Also, the calculation was using Course Rating only. I believe the software people are trying to incorporate CSS also. Phew!
		
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26.2 is extremely generous!?

Correct about nett double bogey adjustment, had that applied, Index could be a bit lower. He said CSS was 72 on all his rounds (I assume SSS=72 given the CR), so I wouldn't expect any additional adjustments once they finally factor in CSS


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## Swango1980 (Oct 22, 2020)

Question: Are any handicap committees conducting Annual Reviews of CONGU Handicaps now?

The reason I ask is that as away member has just forwarded me a letter, showing his Home Club have increased his handicap following their annual review on 21st October 2020. I'm wondering what the benefit of this is, given we are switching to WHS in less than 2 weeks. Unless they are anticipating WHS will never happen.


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## Tommy10 (Oct 22, 2020)

Whereditgo said:



			As others have posted above, assuming you have corrected any 'disaster' holes to Nett double bogey and those 8 scores are in your last 20 (you put "8 from 22").
		
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22 is the number of comp rounds I've played off the whites this season buy like you say it'll be the last 20.

Not sure how it could be 26.2 but I'll find on 2nd November like everyone else (if the system hasn't crashed that morning).

There's probably a few treble bogeys scattered through those 8 rounds but less than 5 I think so won't make too much difference.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 22, 2020)

Tommy10 said:



			22 is the number of comp rounds I've played off the whites this season buy like you say it'll be the last 20.

Not sure how it could be 26.2 but I'll find on 2nd November like everyone else (if the system hasn't crashed that morning).

There's probably a few treble bogeys scattered through those 8 rounds but less than 5 I think so won't make too much difference.
		
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Don't worry, it is definitely not 26.2. I think there was a mishap in the calculator


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## Whereditgo (Oct 22, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Don't worry, it is definitely not 26.2. I think there was a mishap in the calculator
		
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Was the 132 & 113 the wrong way round?  Think it should be 22.5 x 113/132?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 22, 2020)

Whereditgo said:



			Was the 132 & 113 the wrong way round?  Think it should be 22.5 x 113/132?
		
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Yeah, looks like Ian might have got the correct average (which would essentially be the Course Handicap), but then got the 113 and 132 the wrong way round when working out the Index.


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## rulefan (Oct 22, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			Would "strokes received " be acceptable ?
		
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Not a good idea because of the problem raised in #1281.
But I have seen something from either the R&A or USGA indicating that CH was a must. HI and PH (Strokes r'ced)were options.


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## Imurg (Oct 22, 2020)

Now we have our indicative index numbers, does this give us more scope to say that course A is harder than course B?
For example my 7.2 gives me 8 shots on my home course but would only give me 7 on my previous one.
Can I now say with some degree of certainty that my current course is harder than my previous?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 22, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Now we have our indicative index numbers, does this give us more scope to say that course A is harder than course B?
For example my 7.2 gives me 8 shots on my home course but would only give me 7 on my previous one.
Can I now say with some degree of certainty that my current course is harder than my previous?
		
Click to expand...

Nope, but you can say that Course A is harder/easier than course B for higher handicappers relative to low handicappers.

The Course Rating is a better reflection of the absolute difficulty, just like SSS is at the moment.


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## rulefan (Oct 22, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Now we have our indicative index numbers, does this give us more scope to say that course A is harder than course B?
For example my 7.2 gives me 8 shots on my home course but would only give me 7 on my previous one.
Can I now say with some degree of certainty that my current course is harder than my previous?
		
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As Swango says but you can say it is more difficult for YOU.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Oct 22, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Now we have our indicative index numbers, does this give us more scope to say that course A is harder than course B?
For example my 7.2 gives me 8 shots on my home course but would only give me 7 on my previous one.
Can I now say with some degree of certainty that my current course is harder than my previous?
		
Click to expand...

According to the people that do the course ratings.


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## Imurg (Oct 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



			As Swango says but you can say it is more difficult for YOU.
		
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Probably how I should have worded it..


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## IanMcC (Oct 22, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Yeah, looks like Ian might have got the correct average (which would essentially be the Course Handicap), but then got the 113 and 132 the wrong way round when working out the Index.
		
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Guilty as charged. Numerator and denominator troubles! Its a good job the software does all the calculations, isn't it!!


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## Imurg (Oct 22, 2020)

These "provisional" handicap indexs only take into account scores up until 5th October - correct?
So if I have no scores since then will my Index change and if so, why?


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## Swango1980 (Oct 22, 2020)

Imurg said:



			These "provisional" handicap indexs only take into account scores up until 5th October - correct?
So if I have no scores since then will my Index change and if so, why?
		
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It could, but probably not by much. This is because the CSS has still not been factored in. I understand they are working furiously to ensure it is back in before launch. So, if they update it before then, your Index could change a bit.

In addition, for those that have only just got a CONGU handicap, the WHS completely ignores those 3 cards at the moment. If they haven't handed any scores in since, their Index is simply = to Congu handicap. This will give them a Course Handicap that is far too high. So, either this will be resolved by WHS before it goes live, or it will be up to handicap committees to spot this. Given the number of new memberships since lockdown, this impacts on almost 100 golfers at my club, some of the higher handicappers getting nearly 10 additional shots course handicap.

Also, Committees are meant to do a review as soon as it goes live. So, they may change something.


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## yandabrown (Oct 22, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			It could, but probably not by much. This is because the CSS has still not been factored in. I understand they are working furiously to ensure it is back in before launch. So, if they update it before then, your Index could change a bit.

In addition, for those that have only just got a CONGU handicap, the WHS completely ignores those 3 cards at the moment.* If they haven't handed any scores in since, their Index is simply = to Congu handicap*. This will give them a Course Handicap that is far too high. So, either this will be resolved by WHS before it goes live, or it will be up to handicap committees to spot this. Given the number of new memberships since lockdown, this impacts on almost 100 golfers at my club, some of the higher handicappers getting nearly 10 additional shots course handicap.

Also, Committees are meant to do a review as soon as it goes live. So, they may change something.
		
Click to expand...

This bit is just unbelievable: "* If they haven't handed any scores in since, their Index is simply = to Congu handicap"* surely it must be a desloped congu handicap so that resloping takes you back to where you are now!


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## Old Skier (Oct 22, 2020)

Emails from EG should now be winging there way to you all now enabling to set up your WHS account.  Please read the instructions carefully (unlike my members) to stop you spending time ringing your admin and HC team.

Word of warning, I have been working on it trying to delete members and it is very unstable and the index you see is not the one you will see on 2 Nov due to a number of poorly managed reasons


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## Imurg (Oct 22, 2020)

I'm still trying to get my head around having a handicap based on my scores at a course but now I suddenly have 3 more shots playing at the same course....


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## Old Skier (Oct 22, 2020)

Imurg said:



			I'm still trying to get my head around having a handicap based on my scores at a course but now I suddenly have 3 more shots playing at the same course....
		
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Best wait until 2 Nov


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## Swango1980 (Oct 22, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			This bit is just unbelievable: "* If they haven't handed any scores in since, their Index is simply = to Congu handicap"* surely it must be a desloped congu handicap so that resloping takes you back to where you are now!
		
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This is what they simply did when they released to Portal to clubs last week. The 3 scores players put in for handicap were not sent to WHS, for whatever reason. WHS have been informed. However, I have yet to hear if they will do anything about it, such as try and get the 3 scorecards. If not, your suggestion of desloping the CONGU handicap to get index would seem sensible. I am praparing to manually enter the 3 scores come November 2nd


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## ger147 (Oct 22, 2020)

Looks like Scottish Golf are also asking for email addy, DOB and Gender for WHS purposes, just had an email from my club asking for my consent for the club share this data with them.


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## jim8flog (Oct 22, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			Would "strokes received " be acceptable ?
		
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I cannot see anybody else answering this.

If you mean on the card answer is no

For stroke play the Course Handicap *must *be on the card.

Stroke play comps - Too high and it is DQ too low and the one you have written applies
R&A Rule 3.3 (4)

Match play - you just have to tell the opponent(s) the correct strokes allowed.


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## jim8flog (Oct 22, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Not a good idea because of the problem raised in #1281.
But I have seen something from either the R&A or USGA indicating that CH was a must. HI and PH (Strokes r'ced)were options.
		
Click to expand...


In the guidance
G2.1b/1 Handicap On The Scorecard
To avoid a DQ under Rule 3.3b (4) of the Rules of Golf the player must put his/her Course Handicap on the scorecard (see Interpretation 3.3b (4)/1 of the Rules of Golf).


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## upsidedown (Oct 22, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I cannot see anybody else answering this.

If you mean on the card answer is no

For stroke play the Course Handicap *must *be on the card.

Stroke play comps - Too high and it is DQ too low and the one you have written applies
R&A Rule 3.3 (4)

Match play - you just have to tell the opponent(s) the correct strokes allowed.
		
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I hear we've gone for HI,CH and strokes rec'd


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## rulefan (Oct 22, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			In the guidance
G2.1b/1 Handicap On The Scorecard
To avoid a DQ under Rule 3.3b (4) of the Rules of Golf the player must put his/her Course Handicap on the scorecard (see Interpretation 3.3b (4)/1 of the Rules of Golf).
		
Click to expand...


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## IanM (Oct 22, 2020)

Funny how none of the past few pretty important items were mentioned on the players’ seminar I attended.

But they mentioned several times how much better and inclusive this make golf!


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## Kennysarmy (Oct 22, 2020)

8.4 now
8.4 if playing a medal off WHS
What was the point in that lol


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## JollyRedDevil (Oct 23, 2020)

Apologies if it's been posted before. A couple of useful sites.

To check your index, just enter your CDH number
https://members.whsplatform.englandgolf.org/signup

To find slope ratings for any course
http://ncrdb.usga.org/


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## jim8flog (Oct 23, 2020)

Kennysarmy said:



			8.4 now
8.4 if playing a medal off WHS
What was the point in that lol
		
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 The point being that one bad round now may increase your CONGU UHS handicap to 8.5 one bad round under the WHS and it could go over 9 similarly one good round UHS may produce a fairly minor alteration and WHS a much larger one.

PS when you say WHS 8.4 is that the Handicap Index?


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## jim8flog (Oct 23, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Further to previous posts, somewhere, I have it in writing from WHS support at England Golf, there is no function for Cat 1s to put in supplementaries outside the normal rules.
		
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Looking at his under another thread,  without a thorough read of the UHS to understand it fully there are different rules for CAT1 gofers in Scotland. I cannot remember who posted the original comment about a CAT 1 playing posting SSs but maybe they are in Scotland.


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## Jamesbrown (Oct 23, 2020)

What’s happening in regards to playing at a different course say just a knock at new place? 
The original stance on WHS was “every round counts” several years a go and it’s a something I firmly believe in. Can I submit that card? 
Apologies if this has been answered as I’ve had a year off from golf.


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## Old Skier (Oct 23, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			What’s happening in regards to playing at a different course say just a knock at new place?
The original stance on WHS was “every round counts” several years a go and it’s a something I firmly believe in. Can I submit that card?
Apologies if this has been answered as I’ve had a year off from golf.
		
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You can if you pre register at the course but it’s not compulsory however I think as things move on more people will start doing this just to see how they play against different courses.


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## IainP (Oct 23, 2020)

JollyRedDevil said:



			Apologies if it's been posted before. A couple of useful sites.

To check your index, just enter your CDH number
https://members.whsplatform.englandgolf.org/signup

To find slope ratings for any course
http://ncrdb.usga.org/

Click to expand...

I find this one a little friendlier for the course & slope ratings
https://www.randa.org/chc-lookup


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## yandabrown (Oct 23, 2020)

IainP said:



			I find this one a little friendlier for the course & slope ratings
https://www.randa.org/chc-lookup

Click to expand...

Strangely, our course ratings are on the ncrdb site but not the r&a one.


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## IainP (Oct 24, 2020)

I read a lot of informative posts from "those in the know" - you know who you are, thanks. I bought into the "slope isn't an absolute measure of difficulty" and have passed this on to others. In the UK, as we are not doing the "course rating minus par" thing, people may point to "but I only key in slope".

Below are a couple of courses near me:

A) Par 72  CR 71    Slope 133

B) Par 72  CR 73.7 Slope 127

Someone with a HI of 11 would be granted:
13 shots at course A
12 shots at course B

If I'm correct so far, I think this feeds the "slope is difficultly" conversation as this player 'gains more shots".

But, am I correct is saying to "match the course" the player would need to shoot
84 at course A
86 at course B

Am I on the right track? 🤔🙂

NB, the above are Course Handicaps. Applying the Playing Handicap adjustment for format would reduce accordingly. So using 95%
12 shots at course A
11 shots at course B

 to "match the course" the player would need to shoot
83 at course A
85 at course B


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## rulefan (Oct 24, 2020)

IainP said:



			I read a lot of informative posts from "those in the know" - you know who you are, thanks. I bought into the "slope isn't an absolute measure of difficulty" and have passed this on to others. In the UK, as we are not doing the "course rating minus par" thing, people may point to "but I only key in slope".

Below are a couple of courses near me:

A) Par 72  CR 71    Slope 133

B) Par 72  CR 73.7 Slope 127

Someone with a HI of 11 would be granted:
13 shots at course A
12 shots at course B

If I'm correct so far, I think this feeds the "slope is difficultly" conversation as this player 'gains more shots".

*But, am I correct is saying to "match the course" the player would need to shoot
84 at course A
86 at course B*

Am I on the right track? 🤔🙂
		
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Yes


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## Canfordhacker (Oct 25, 2020)

I have read so many posts - forgive me if this has been mentioned. All of the rounds at my home course for me and my mates seem to have been loaded off the yellow tees/. Is that common? Assuming it will be fixed like CSS impact, but seems strange given the source data had the relevant tees flagged...


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## Swango1980 (Oct 25, 2020)

Canfordhacker said:



			I have read so many posts - forgive me if this has been mentioned. All of the rounds at my home course for me and my mates seem to have been loaded off the yellow tees/. Is that common? Assuming it will be fixed like CSS impact, but seems strange given the source data had the relevant tees flagged...
		
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Doesn't sound normal. The correct tees should have been set already.


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## rulefan (Oct 25, 2020)

Canfordhacker said:



			I have read so many posts - forgive me if this has been mentioned. All of the rounds at my home course for me and my mates seem to have been loaded off the yellow tees/. Is that common? Assuming it will be fixed like CSS impact, but seems strange given the source data had the relevant tees flagged...
		
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This seems to have happened at a number of clubs. Our ladies are showing as playing all rounds on their winter course. EG are dealing with it but I worry they can only do it if they have been advised by the club.


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## ger147 (Oct 25, 2020)

Canfordhacker said:



			I have read so many posts - forgive me if this has been mentioned. All of the rounds at my home course for me and my mates seem to have been loaded off the yellow tees/. Is that common? Assuming it will be fixed like CSS impact, but seems strange given the source data had the relevant tees flagged...
		
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Something similar at our club. We have 2 courses but all results are shown as being played on just one course although it's clear from the system at our end that some were played on the other course.


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## hovis (Oct 25, 2020)

Will holes still have the same stroke index's?


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## doublebogey7 (Oct 25, 2020)

hovis said:



			Will holes still have the same stroke index's?
		
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Stroke Indexes are and continue to be decided by your club, and there is no need for them to change as a result of the WHS


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## Imurg (Oct 25, 2020)

Just been looking at my numbers..
It seems I've got a supplementary card still to be used in the calculation 
It was a good one - nett 4 under - and got me cut so that's going to drop my number when the last data dump happens.
But it also triggered an ESR..
Will the new system take that into account as well..?


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## PhilTheFragger (Oct 25, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Just been looking at my numbers..
It seems I've got a supplementary card still to be used in the calculation
It was a good one - nett 4 under - and got me cut so that's going to drop my number when the last data dump happens.
But it also triggered an ESR..
Will the new system take that into account as well..?
		
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Cut him and cut him hard 👍


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## Imurg (Oct 25, 2020)

PhilTheFragger said:



			Cut him and cut him hard 👍
		
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I'll still thrash yer.?


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## rulefan (Oct 25, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			Stroke Indexes are and continue to be decided by your club, and there is no need for them to change as a result of the WHS
		
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But the WHS does make a new recommendation re the allocation in Appendix E.
It would seem to be a compromise between the 'difficulty' and 'matchplay' concepts.


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## IanMcC (Oct 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			But the WHS does make a new recommendation re the allocation in Appendix E.
It would seem to be a compromise between the 'difficulty' and 'matchplay' concepts.
		
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That is very interesting, rulefan. Im sure there used to be a recommendation that the first and 10th holes were no harder than stroke 8, and preferably around stroke 12. 
I dont see that in Appendix E anywhere. Is this still a recommendation? Our first hole at Rhuddlan is quite hard, being the 3rd hardest hole in the historical statistics. It is currently SI 12, but under Appendix E it comes out as SI 4.


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## fenwayrich (Oct 26, 2020)

A new question, apologies if this has already been answered. We have a player who has just returned from working in Dubai, and has been a member here for the last five years, the last two being as an Country member. The majority of his last 20 scores, all this year, have been on courses in Dubai under competition conditions. He has forwarded all the details including slopes, CR etc for each round, and his handicap index of 1.1. Since returning he has played a few rounds at our Club. He is no longer a member of a club in Dubai. 

Do the foreign scores have to be submitted to the people implementing the new system here for his handicap index to be created before 2nd November?


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## Scott W (Oct 26, 2020)

So finally got my full access to WHS data

So I currently have a handicap index showing of 15.2 .......but I think it should be 16.0 (current CONGU h'cap is 17.9)

There are a load of anomalies in the data  :-(

1. WHS data has only 10 scores since 1/1/2018 listed where as I have 17 qualifying scores in that time period - the missing ones are random i.e. not all consecutive

2. This of course means that with only 10 scores they have taken average of best 3 rather than best 6 which would be the case with 17 scores

For 4 of the rounds they have included from my old club they have them showing as having been ff the yellows but they were off the whites which means course rating and slope are wrong

So all in all a cracking job they are doing so far .... I cant see this being all corrected in time for go live on Monday


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## Swango1980 (Oct 26, 2020)

Scott W said:



			So finally got my full access to WHS data

So I currently have a handicap index showing of 15.2 .......but I think it should be 16.0 (current CONGU h'cap is 17.9)

There are a load of anomalies in the data  :-(

1. WHS data has only 10 scores since 1/1/2018 listed where as I have 17 qualifying scores in that time period - the missing ones are random i.e. not all consecutive

2. This of course means that with only 10 scores they have taken average of best 3 rather than best 6 which would be the case with 17 scores

For 4 of the rounds they have included from my old club they have them showing as having been ff the yellows but they were off the whites which means course rating and slope are wrong

So all in all a cracking job they are doing so far .... I cant see this being all corrected in time for go live on Monday
		
Click to expand...

At least you have access. Our ISV haven't even sent across e-mail addresses yet, so our members cannot register. Looks like a bit of a mess has been made with your record. This is why I think they should have delayed the launch until early next year, and given committees and members a chance to identify these, and give enough time to rectify them.


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## Scott W (Oct 26, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			At least you have access. Our ISV haven't even sent across e-mail addresses yet, so our members cannot register. Looks like a bit of a mess has been made with your record. This is why I think they should have delayed the launch until early next year, and given committees and members a chance to identify these, and give enough time to rectify them.
		
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But they had 2 years to get it sorted....


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## rosecott (Oct 26, 2020)

Scott W said:



			But they had 2 years to get it sorted....
		
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And, like everywhere else, a little thing called covid-19 appeared and had its effects.


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## IanMcC (Oct 26, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			That is very interesting, rulefan. Im sure there used to be a recommendation that the first and 10th holes were no harder than stroke 8, and preferably around stroke 12.
I dont see that in Appendix E anywhere. Is this still a recommendation? Our first hole at Rhuddlan is quite hard, being the 3rd hardest hole in the historical statistics. It is currently SI 12, but under Appendix E it comes out as SI 4.
		
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This is from the CONGU 2019 Manual:

Appendix G - Handicap Stroke Index
4. None of the first eight strokes should be allocated to the first or the last hole, and at clubs where competitive matches may be started at the 10th hole, at the 9th or 10th holes. This avoids a player receiving an undue advantage on the 19th hole should a match continue to sudden death. Unless there are compelling reasons to the contrary, stroke indices 9, 10, 11 and 12 should be allocated to holes 1, 9, 10 and 18 in such order as shall be considered appropriate.

There is nothing in WHS Rules Of Handicapping book under Appendix E that mentions the above. Does the new RoH booklet override the CONGU 2019 manual for this aspect? They contradict each other somewhat.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 26, 2020)

rosecott said:



			And, like everywhere else, a little thing called covid-19 appeared and had its effects.
		
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Did that realistically stop computer programmers from working? And, even if it did, why rush it out on 2nd November? Just put it back a few months.


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## Crazyface (Oct 26, 2020)

LOts of problems and questions. They seem to completely ignore any rubbish scores and only take into account any half decent ones. Well it seems that way with mine. The wifes been cut 4 shots, based on, from what I can see two scores. My golf mate, who hasn't put ANY scores in this year, coz he didn't want his H/C to go any higher than the 29.4 he was has got his new shiney WHS one now.....36 ! I'm sorry, but OMG did I laugh. Still am actually.


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## IanM (Oct 26, 2020)

Looking at the recorded scores on the new (Welsh) portal, there are lots of scores ignored.  Inc two of my best this year.  Rumblings suggest that the initial feed might have been a test and a final one will be done on 2nd November.  But who knows?

I can see a few groups administering their own handicaps for roll-ups and forgetting all about WHS for some time.

Stop Press: Just walked the dogs, bumped into neighbour doing the same.   He's a member at Celtic Manor.... he's gobsmacked that Roman Road has a slope index lower than Llanwern!  Expect that they'll get a few extra in their Open this year!


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## rulefan (Oct 26, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			This is from the CONGU 2019 Manual:

Appendix G - Handicap Stroke Index
4. None of the first eight strokes should be allocated to the first or the last hole, and at clubs where competitive matches may be started at the 10th hole, at the 9th or 10th holes. This avoids a player receiving an undue advantage on the 19th hole should a match continue to sudden death. Unless there are compelling reasons to the contrary, stroke indices 9, 10, 11 and 12 should be allocated to holes 1, 9, 10 and 18 in such order as shall be considered appropriate.

There is nothing in WHS Rules Of Handicapping book under Appendix E that mentions the above. Does the new RoH booklet override the CONGU 2019 manual for this aspect? They contradict each other somewhat.
		
Click to expand...

The whole of the WHS Rules of Handicapping supersede the 2019 CONGU Manual.
Therefore Appendix E id the definitive recommendation - not mandate.
Appendix E is on page 100 of the RoH


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## rulefan (Oct 26, 2020)

IanM said:



			Looking at the recorded scores on the new (Welsh) portal, there are lots of scores ignored.  Inc two of my best this year.  Rumblings suggest that the initial feed might have been a test and a final one will be done on 2nd November.  But who knows?

I can see a few groups administering their own handicaps for roll-ups and forgetting all about WHS for some time.

Stop Press: Just walked the dogs, bumped into neighbour doing the same.   He's a member at Celtic Manor.... he's gobsmacked that Roman Road has a slope index lower than Llanwern!  Expect that they'll get a few extra in their Open this year!
		
Click to expand...

What do believe Slope tells you?

However the Slopes at all the Celtic Manor tees are higher than any at Llanwern.
And the Course Ratings at Llanwern are much lower.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 26, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Did that realistically stop computer programmers from working? And, even if it did, why rush it out on 2nd November? Just put it back a few months.
		
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2 months to Jan 1st would be more than enough....get the database synchronised on Nov 2nd....allow a couple of months of parallel working ( which would allow errors in the database to be corrected, and for committees to address players issues), at a time when the volume of comps is generally much lower, and then turn off Congu with a big celebratory explosion of fireworks on Dec 31st.


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## IanM (Oct 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			What do believe Slope tells you?   

However the Slopes at all the Celtic Manor tees are higher than *any* at Llanwern.
And the Course Ratings at Llanwern are much lower.
		
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Not they are not.

I also ignored the Blacks at CM as they are virtually never used - but of course you said *any*... I looked at the tees both courses use for club comps, course rating indeed 1.7 higher on RR.

Roman Road White 129
Llanwern White 131

http://ncrdb.usga.org/courseTeeInfo.aspx?CourseID=17403

The guy I spoke to expressed his surprise at the difference, that's all.   I guess you have played both courses and can therefore discuss the criteria on which his surprise is valid or not?   Actually, no criteria were ever mentioned.


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## rosecott (Oct 26, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Did that realistically stop computer programmers from working? And, even if it did, why rush it out on 2nd November? Just put it back a few months.
		
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The England Golf staff were in the same boat as most organisations in terms of furloughing and working from home.


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## Old Skier (Oct 26, 2020)

IanM said:



			Not they are not.

I also ignored the Blacks at CM as they are virtually never used - but of course you said *any*... I looked at the tees both courses use for club comps, course rating indeed 1.7 higher on RR.

Roman Road White 129
Llanwern White 131

http://ncrdb.usga.org/courseTeeInfo.aspx?CourseID=17403

The guy I spoke to expressed his surprise at the difference, that's all.   I guess you have played both courses and can therefore discuss the criteria on which his surprise is valid or not?   Actually, no criteria were ever mentioned.
		
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We have the same here with Saunton East being lower than us and RND


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## rulefan (Oct 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			We have the same here with Saunton East being lower than us and RND
		
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Do you really understand what slope means? Without CR it tells you nothing about the relative difficulty of two courses.
Slope only tells you how difficult *a specific course* is for higher handicappers *relative to *low handicappers


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## Swango1980 (Oct 26, 2020)

rosecott said:



			The England Golf staff were in the same boat as most organisations in terms of furloughing and working from home.
		
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Which is why delaying WHS for a few months would not have been a bad thing, and understandable to most. Right now, it feels like one big last minute rush, that will cause many headaches next week if there are lots of bugs and confused golfers. I just think it would have been much easier to get to where they are now, turn it on next week, but only so that it runs in parallel to the CONGU system. Keep CONGU handicaps operational for a few more months, allow golfers to see what happens to their WHS Index as they submit more scores, allow Committees to report and help fix any bugs, and then turn in on end of February, just in time for the 2021 season.


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## Old Skier (Oct 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Do you really understand what slope means? Without CR it tells you nothing about the relative difficulty of two courses.
Slope only tells you how difficult *a specific course* is for higher handicappers *relative to *low handicappers
		
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And as the majority of players are from the higher handicap doesnt that equate to a higher handicapper at Saunton have a harder chance against a low handicapper whereas it’s the other way round in simplistic terms at RND.


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## rulefan (Oct 26, 2020)

IanM said:



			Not they are not.

I also ignored the Blacks at CM as they are virtually never used - but of course you said *any*... I looked at the tees both courses use for club comps, course rating indeed 1.7 higher on RR.

Roman Road White 129
Llanwern White 131

http://ncrdb.usga.org/courseTeeInfo.aspx?CourseID=17403

The guy I spoke to expressed his surprise at the difference, that's all.   I guess you have played both courses and can therefore discuss the criteria on which his surprise is valid or not?   Actually, no criteria were ever mentioned.
		
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See post #1369

Llanwern      CR 70  Slope 131  Par 70
Celtic Manor CR 72  Slope 129  Par 69


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## IanM (Oct 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			However the Slopes at all th*e Celtic Manor tees are higher t*han any at Llanwern.
And the Course Ratings at Llanwern are much lower.
		
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rulefan said:



			See post #1369

Llanwern      CR 70  Slope 131  Par 70
Celtic Manor CR 72  Slope 129  Par 69
		
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Careful...  when I was at school 131 was higher than 129    

Apology awaited....


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## Old Skier (Oct 26, 2020)

IanM said:



			Careful...  when I was at school 131 was higher than 129   

Apology awaited....
		
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You will now get the CR issue which throws me as well


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## rulefan (Oct 26, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			And as the majority of players are from the higher handicap doesnt that equate to a higher handicapper at Saunton have a harder chance against a low handicapper whereas it’s the other way round in simplistic terms at RND.
		
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Apply the formula

Index x (Slope / 113) on each course for a range of handicaps. What gross score is needed to have a net score = Course Rating


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## ExRabbit (Oct 27, 2020)

Hdid email from today - nice set of videos to help people get their heads around it all.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzZqRnQh4SbgW0wWyoEiiEC8cJoWVMxfg


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## jim8flog (Oct 27, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			This is from the CONGU 2019 Manual:

Appendix G - Handicap Stroke Index
4. None of the first eight strokes should be allocated to the first or the last hole, and at clubs where competitive matches may be started at the 10th hole, at the 9th or 10th holes. This avoids a player receiving an undue advantage on the 19th hole should a match continue to sudden death. Unless there are compelling reasons to the contrary, stroke indices 9, 10, 11 and 12 should be allocated to holes 1, 9, 10 and 18 in such order as shall be considered appropriate.

There is nothing in WHS Rules Of Handicapping book under Appendix E that mentions the above. Does the new RoH booklet override the CONGU 2019 manual for this aspect? They contradict each other somewhat.
		
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The CONGU 2016-19 manual goes in to the rubbish bin on November 2nd

Whatever is said in Appendix E applies.


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## Ethan (Oct 27, 2020)

Finally got properly into the England Golf site to see the scores used for my indicative handicap. All correct except for one, my second best score, which was missing. Have emailed them a screenshot of my clubs handicap record and hopefully will get fixed, with a 79 coming in and an 87 exiting the best 8, so looks like a full 1.0 further reduction. I am sure they are a bit busy right now, though.


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## IainP (Oct 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			You will now get the CR issue which throws me as well
		
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Does post https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/world-handicap-system-whs.104054/post-2249251  help?


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## Foxholer (Oct 27, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			This is from the CONGU 2019 Manual:

Appendix G - Handicap Stroke Index
4. None of the first eight strokes should be allocated to the first or the last hole, and at clubs where competitive matches may be started at the 10th hole, at the 9th or 10th holes. This avoids a player receiving an undue advantage on the 19th hole should a match continue to sudden death. Unless there are compelling reasons to the contrary, stroke indices 9, 10, 11 and 12 should be allocated to holes 1, 9, 10 and 18 in such order as shall be considered appropriate.

There is nothing in WHS Rules Of Handicapping book under Appendix E that mentions the above. Does the new RoH booklet override the CONGU 2019 manual for this aspect? They contradict each other somewhat.
		
Click to expand...

I've always argued that Congu's approach is wrong (at least wrt Hole 1 and 10 SIs). If the first hole deserves to be a low SI, then that's what it should be, otherwise it gives an undue advantage to the lower handicap player! The 'advantage' that a higher handicap gets from gatting a shot at 2 or 10 would be 'due', not 'undue'!
And FWIW, my club has sensibly ignored Congu's advice too. Holes 1, 9, 10 and 18 are SIs 9, 3, 6 and 8.


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## Foxholer (Oct 27, 2020)

IainP said:



			I read a lot of informative posts from "those in the know" - you know who you are, thanks. I bought into the "slope isn't an absolute measure of difficulty" and have passed this on to others. In the UK, as we are not doing the "course rating minus par" thing, people may point to "but I only key in slope".

Below are a couple of courses near me:

A) Par 72  CR 71    Slope 133

B) Par 72  CR 73.7 Slope 127

Someone with a HI of 11 would be granted:
13 shots at course A
12 shots at course B

If I'm correct so far, I think this feeds the "slope is difficultly" conversation as this player 'gains more shots".

But, am I correct is saying to "match the course" the player would need to shoot
84 at course A
86 at course B

Am I on the right track? 🤔🙂
		
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Just seen this and believe you are nearly correct.
The fundamental difference between the Slope system and Congu's is that Congu onlyrates courses for a Scratch player. Slope rates courses for both a Scratch player (the Course Rating) and a 'Bogey' player. It's the 'slope' of a line drawn between those 2 numbers that method its name. So while 'slope is difficulty' is almost correct, a 'complete' definition is 'Slope compared to 115, indicates difficulty for a Bogey golfer compared to a Scratch one'.

And Yes, I believe those scores (84 and 86 resp) are correct.


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## Foxholer (Oct 27, 2020)

IanM said:



			...
Stop Press: Just walked the dogs, bumped into neighbour doing the same.   *He's a member at Celtic Manor.... he's gobsmacked that Roman Road has a slope index lower than Llanwern!*  Expect that they'll get a few extra in their Open this year!
		
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Another who has misunderstood the concept of the Slope system! It's not simply 'Slope'. It's Scratch CR and Bogey CR, with Slope being the relationship between those numbers that allows the Course Handicap for any Index to be calculated. 
Check the respective Scratch and Bogey Ratings out - at least off the White Tees. Then decide which is deemed harder!


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## IanM (Oct 27, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Another who has misunderstood the concept of the Slope system! It's not simply 'Slope'. It's Scratch CR and Bogey CR, with Slope being the relationship between those numbers that allows the Course Handicap for any Index to be calculated.
Check the respective Scratch and Bogey Ratings out - at least off the White Tees. Then decide which is deemed harder!
		
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For the record... white tees, Roman Road CR is higher than Llanwern by 1.7... although if you talk to scratch players round here, they'd say "Blimey, is that all???"   

But clearly, they will offend the rules gods if they express that opinion!


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## rulefan (Oct 27, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I've always argued that Congu's approach is wrong (at least wrt Hole 1 and 10 SIs). If the first hole deserves to be a low SI, then that's what it should be, otherwise it gives an undue advantage to the lower handicap player! The 'advantage' that a higher handicap gets from gatting a shot at 2 or 10 would be 'due', not 'undue'!
And FWIW, my club has sensibly ignored Congu's advice too. Holes 1, 9, 10 and 18 are SIs 10, 3, 6 and 8.
		
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Current CONGU not WHS.
 Two players, A 0.4 exact, B 0.5 exact. Standing on the extra 19th (1st) tee - all square. This hole is a par 3 SI 1.
Who do you put your money on?


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## IainP (Oct 27, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Just seen this and believe you are nearly correct.
The fundamental difference between the Slope system and Congu's is that Congu onlyrates courses for a Scratch player. Slope rates courses for both a Scratch player (the Course Rating) and a 'Bogey' player. It's the 'slope' of a line drawn between those 2 numbers that method its name. So while 'slope is difficulty' is almost correct, a 'complete' definition is 'Slope compared to 115, indicates difficulty for a Bogey golfer compared to a Scratch one'.

And Yes, I believe those scores (84 and 86 resp) are correct.
		
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My aim was to show a worked example using actual course data, as personally I find that easier to follow and maybe some others may also.
Glad you agree with the scores part.
Not clear which part you think is "nearly correct" (& perhaps correct or not is an absolute anyway).
Did you mean 115?


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## Beezerk (Oct 27, 2020)

Finally got my account sorted, 12.5 is what I've been given. It is odd though looking at my score history graph, only 3 scores are below 12.5 the rest are above. The best scores are all from 2018, from mid 2019 onwards they've been terrible 🤦


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## Foxholer (Oct 27, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Current CONGU not WHS.
Two players, A 0.4 exact, B 0.5 exact. Standing on the extra 19th (1st) tee - all square. This hole is a par 3 SI 1.
Who do you put your money on?
		
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You are imagining/manufacturing an extreme 'not in the real world' case!!
Do you know of ANY course where that's anywhere near likely to be the case?  
The likes of James Braid, Harry Colt and other 'proper' course designers generally let golfers warm up with a 'not the most challenging' hole (and/so generally not a Par 3 either).
The reality is far more likely to be something like our 10th - a longish Par 4 reachable by (longish hitting) low-cappers but not by (shorter/wayward-ish) higher cappers. So expect a half for the 'not a shot hole' for your example and also for the more usual example of a low-capper vs high-capper too.


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## Foxholer (Oct 27, 2020)

IainP said:



			My aim was to show a worked example using actual course data, as personally I find that easier to follow and maybe some others may also.
Glad you agree with the scores part.
Not clear which part you think is "nearly correct" (& perhaps correct or not is an absolute anyway).
Did you mean 115?
		
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Doh! Should have been 113!
And it was your text about/definition of Slope that was 'nearly' correct. I believe my expansion IS correct.
113 is 'the average' slope - where a Bogey player would be 'expected' to play to (aka Bogey Rating of) CR + HI.


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## IanMcC (Oct 27, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			You are imagining/manufacturing an extreme 'not in the real world' case!!
Do you know of ANY course where that's anywhere near likely to be the case? 
The likes of James Braid, Harry Colt and other 'proper' course designers generally let golfers warm up with a 'not the most challenging' hole (and/so generally not a Par 3 either).
The reality is far more likely to be something like our 10th - a longish Par 4 reachable by (longish hitting) low-cappers but not by (shorter/wayward-ish) higher cappers. So expect a half for the 'not a shot hole' for your example and also for the more usual example of a low-capper vs high-capper too.
		
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Our first hole is SI 12. Its a long par 4 at 465 yards. Using the past 4 year's data it comes out as the third hardest hole on the course off of the white tees. Using the RoH book method it would be SI 4. I think that would be fairer.
Saying that, we have no plan to change the Stroke Indices of the holes, as it would be too costly.


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## Foxholer (Oct 27, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Our first hole is SI 12. Its a long par 4 at 465 yards. Using the past 4 year's data it comes out as the third hardest hole on the course off of the white tees. Using the RoH book method it would be SI 4. I think that would be fairer.
Saying that, we have no plan to change the Stroke Indices of the holes, as it would be too costly.
		
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That backs up my reasoning/disagreement with Congu's approach


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## rulefan (Oct 27, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			That backs up my reasoning/disagreement with Congu's approach
		
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Do you mean CONGU in 2019 or after WHS?


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## Foxholer (Oct 27, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Do you mean CONGU in 2019 or after WHS?
		
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Congu Pre WHS.
Remind me of the difference post WHS.


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## jim8flog (Oct 27, 2020)

I am another who thinks setting hole difficulty for match play is totally bonkers.

Why should one format of play totally dictate to a substantial level what happens in another format.

Change the method of giving strokes in match play and problem solved.


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## Foxholer (Oct 27, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I am another who thinks setting hole difficulty for match play is totally bonkers.

Why should one format of play totally dictate to a substantial level what happens in another format.

Change the method of giving strokes in match play and problem solved.
		
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Well, Stableford works that way too! As does Medal wrt Stableford Adjustment, for a few more days, but there's an 'equivalent' in WHS). It's only in pure Scratch rounds where SI is ignored and there's not many of those played compared to other formats.


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## jim8flog (Oct 27, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Well, Stableford works that way too! As does Medal wrt Stableford Adjustment, for a few more days, but there's an 'equivalent' in WHS). It's only in pure Scratch rounds where SI is ignored and there's not many of those played compared to other formats.
		
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 You are right but where I play Stableford is by far the most played format whether socially, swindles or competitions.

E.G in our club knockouts out of a membership of nearly 800 fewer than about 40 players enter.

In our Stableford comps we generally exceed 100 players and we have 4 a week.

Every single swindle I know of uses Stableford and there are 3 or 4 different swindles most days.


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## rulefan (Oct 27, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Congu Pre WHS.
Remind me of the difference post WHS.
		
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Appendix E in the RoH.


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## badgergm (Oct 27, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Well, Stableford works that way too! As does Medal wrt Stableford Adjustment, for a few more days, but there's an 'equivalent' in WHS). It's only in pure Scratch rounds where SI is ignored and there's not many of those played compared to other formats.
		
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problem is solved by having two sets, one for match play and one for stroke play. Which does happen in some places I believe.
i think it’s not universally adopted because it is thought to be too difficult for folk to cope with. Which, given the complexities of WHS is looking like a pretty weak argument.......


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## Foxholer (Oct 27, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Appendix E in the RoH.
		
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Better perhaps, but still a bit of an 'un-natural frig'!


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## 3offTheTee (Oct 27, 2020)

Will an expert please clarify:

My handicap index is 18.2.

However on the latest figure available up to 3/10/20 it is shown as18.6 Why the discrepancy please. Realise no scores have been posted since then.


Also when scores are added a 94 will be replaced by a 96. Am I correct in stating the extra2 shots will equate to 0.25 rounded up to 0.3 so depending on the first answers will be either 18.5 or 18.9.

Thanks for any help provided


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## Leftitshort (Oct 27, 2020)

How does this bit stop blatant banditry? No minimum rounds per year, no compulsion to play qualifiers. Matchplay should be fun next year, even major stablefords could be a nonsense


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## Imurg (Oct 27, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Just been looking at my numbers..
It seems I've got a supplementary card still to be used in the calculation
It was a good one - nett 4 under - and got me cut so that's going to drop my number when the last data dump happens.
But it also triggered an ESR..
Will the new system take that into account as well..?
		
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Anyone got any idea how an ESR that doesn't appear in the WHS numbers gets handled..?


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## rulefan (Oct 27, 2020)

badgergm said:



			problem is solved by having two sets, one for match play and one for stroke play. Which does happen in some places I believe.
		
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Australia introduced two sets of indices some years ago. One based entirely on recorded difficulty for stroke play, the other on the strategic and tactical nuances of match play.
The allocation of strokes in the latter was mandated by Golf Australia and were therefore the same at all courses. The use of two cards was also mandated.
When the then EGU decided to follow suit by recommending two sets, they published the match play principles but left the fine tuning to the club. In the event many clubs didn't bother using the match play version because a) they didn't agree with the idea or b) decided they couldn't afford the cost signage and cards. My club switched to the the match play card with no side effects or comments from members (apart from having to remember where they got strokes in stablefords). We have tuned it slightly but still work to the same principles.
A club in Wales did a large computer simulation and showed that random distributions of indices made no significant difference to the top 3 stableford positions and only had a minor effect on the top 10 positions.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 27, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			How does this bit stop blatant banditry? No minimum rounds per year, no compulsion to play qualifiers. Matchplay should be fun next year, even major stablefords could be a nonsense
		
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Easy. Condition of Competition: If you haven't submitted X scores in the prior 12 months you cannot enter/win prizes.


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## Old Skier (Oct 27, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Easy. Condition of Competition: If you haven't submitted X scores in the prior 12 months you cannot enter/win prizes.
		
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It’s amazing how many golfers and even clubs no nothing about this.


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## nickjdavis (Oct 27, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Anyone got any idea how an ESR that doesn't appear in the WHS numbers gets handled..?
		
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Don't know but I'm not sure it needs to be treated in any special way as it will be the actual scores that drive your initial WHS index allocation.

If a player has a long handicap record and the WHS starts at the beginning and takes the first 3 scores to generate the initial index then then builds the handicap up as the scores are generated then perhaps it could be argued that an exceptional score should generate the reduction appropriate....but I'll be honest....given that half the basics seem to have caused the WHS system problems, something that might take a little thought might be beyond them.

Weve got a player who put in 3 cards in Feb 2019...was allocated at 28 handicap. Never submitted another score until August 2020....has put in 3 supplementaries with nett differentials on -17, -4, -5 and got given in addition to his normal cuts a 3 shot ESR. Whilst the ESR doesnt figure in his WHS index the WHS has given him an index of 8.2 as it only recognises the 3 supplementaries that he has put in!!!


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## Old Skier (Oct 27, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Don't know but I'm not sure it needs to be treated in any special way as it will be the actual scores that drive your initial WHS index allocation.

If a player has a long handicap record and the WHS starts at the beginning and takes the first 3 scores to generate the initial index then then builds the handicap up as the scores are generated then perhaps it could be argued that an exceptional score should generate the reduction appropriate....but I'll be honest....given that half the basics seem to have caused the WHS system problems, something that might take a little thought might be beyond them.

Weve got a player who put in 3 cards in Feb 2019...was allocated at 28 handicap. Never submitted another score until August 2020....has put in 3 supplementaries with nett differentials on -17, -4, -5 and got given in addition to his normal cuts a 3 shot ESR. Whilst the ESR doesnt figure in his WHS index the WHS has given him an index of 8.2 as it only recognises the 3 supplementaries that he has put in!!!
		
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-17 looks a bit odd, fat fingers?


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## IainP (Oct 27, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Anyone got any idea how an ESR that doesn't appear in the WHS numbers gets handled..?
		
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My guess would be that ESR existed because there wasn't a rolling average, so I'd put my shekels on the good score just becoming part of the calculation.


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## rosecott (Oct 27, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Will an expert please clarify:

My handicap index is 18.2.

However on the latest figure available up to 3/10/20 it is shown as18.6 Why the discrepancy please. Realise no scores have been posted since then.


Also when scores are added a 94 will be replaced by a 96. Am I correct in stating the extra2 shots will equate to 0.25 rounded up to 0.3 so depending on the first answers will be either 18.5 or 18.9.

Thanks for any help provided
		
Click to expand...

I'm not quite sure what you mean. No-one knows yet what their Handicap Index is - only an indication or estimate is shown on the WHS platform.


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## Leftitshort (Oct 27, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Easy. Condition of Competition: If you haven't submitted X scores in the prior 12 months you cannot enter/win prizes.
		
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Cheers. That makes sense for club comps. How would this be proven for opens unless there is another supplementary record to be carried around? Why remove the active/inactive stipulation?


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## rulefan (Oct 27, 2020)

IainP said:



			My guess would be that ESR existed because there wasn't a rolling average, so I'd put my shekels on the good score just becoming part of the calculation.
		
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That's my bet too.
I'm pretty sure that the approach would have been to process each CDH qualifying score in turn an apply the WHS formula to calculate HIs. Then apply the 8/20 to the latest 20 as they go by. It doesn't make sense to try and introduce CONGU machinations on the way.


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## rulefan (Oct 27, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			Cheers. That makes sense for club comps. How would this be proven for opens unless there is another supplementary record to be carried around? Why remove the active/inactive stipulation?
		
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No doubt clubs will be given access to an individual's playing record as the can access the CDH now.


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## Leftitshort (Oct 27, 2020)

rulefan said:



			No doubt clubs will be given access to an individual's playing record as the can access the CDH now.
		
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It’s all very admin heavy! I know it’s not live until 2nd Nov but mines changed twice in the last week 🤣👍


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## rulefan (Oct 27, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			It’s all very admin heavy! I know it’s not live until 2nd Nov but mines changed twice in the last week 🤣👍
		
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How does your club weed out bandits from your opens now?


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## 3offTheTee (Oct 27, 2020)

rosecott said:



			I'm not quite sure what you mean. No-one knows yet what their Handicap Index is - only an indication or estimate is shown on the WHS platform.
		
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Thanks for the replySorry. My indicative index was 18.2 and I still have some scores to be added. However the number in the top right said 18.6 which I did not understand.

i would have expected the figures advised by EG to be the same as in the top right hand corner. My mistake and wondered why the differenec


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## Old Skier (Oct 27, 2020)

Leftitshort said:



			Cheers. That makes sense for club comps. How would this be proven for opens unless there is another supplementary record to be carried around? Why remove the active/inactive stipulation?
		
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How did having the holy grail of a “C“ prove anything other than you played 3 qualifiers.


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## rulefan (Oct 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			How did having the holy grail of a “C“ prove anything other than you played 3 qualifiers.......
		
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....... last year


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## Leftitshort (Oct 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			How did having the holy grail of a “C“ prove anything other than you played 3 qualifiers.
		
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always thought it should be more. Seems like a missed opportunity to me. A real chance to try & legitimise the handicap system, rewarding commitment to the club game. Instead it’s another bandits charter. Make it 10 qualifiers a year. Don’t h e to be comp rounds anymore. 

U might get away with sandbagging for 3 not for 10


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## Leftitshort (Oct 27, 2020)

rulefan said:



			How does your club weed out bandits from your opens now?
		
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It doesn’t because the current system is broken. Looks like the next one will be also


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## HampshireHog (Oct 27, 2020)

IainP said:



			My guess would be that ESR existed because there wasn't a rolling average, so I'd put my shekels on the good score just becoming part of the calculation.
		
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On my good round the calculated differential was reduced by 2.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 27, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Will an expert please clarify:

My handicap index is 18.2.

However on the latest figure available up to 3/10/20 it is shown as18.6 Why the discrepancy please. Realise no scores have been posted since then.


Also when scores are added a 94 will be replaced by a 96. Am I correct in stating the extra2 shots will equate to 0.25 rounded up to 0.3 so depending on the first answers will be either 18.5 or 18.9.

Thanks for any help provided
		
Click to expand...

If you are talking about the WHS Score History, the 18.6 would have been your handicap index BEFORE that round was played (i.e. your Index you used for scoring that round was 18.6). The 18.2 is your Index, and therefore after that final round, your index went from 18.6 to 18.2. If you are talking about what I think you are.

Your final sentence makes reasonable sense. you gross differential increases by 2 shots, and averaged over 8 scores, that is an increase of 0.25. Although, the handicap index is based on Score Differentials, which multiple each gross differential by 113/Slope. So you need to apply a factor of 113/Slope to the 0.25 (this is me thing out loud, but I have been entering member e-mail addresses and DOB into the WHS Portal for the last 2 hours, so my brain is like a pickle)


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## nickjdavis (Oct 27, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			-17 looks a bit odd, fat fingers?
		
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No. Bloke got his 28 handicap and seemingly never entered a comp or a score for 18 months....obviously been playing and practising. Decided to put in 3 supplementaries in August.

First time out off 28 he shot 8 over gross...11 shots over SSS.


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## Kennysarmy (Oct 27, 2020)

Yesterday I was 7.8, today I'm 7.2
🤣
Guess someone has found a new calculation method!


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## mikejohnchapman (Oct 27, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Anyone got any idea how an ESR that doesn't appear in the WHS numbers gets handled..?
		
Click to expand...

The ESR under WHS is different and kicks in if you have a -7 Gross Differential (! shot) or -10 GD (2 Shots).

If you want to apply a recent adjustment to a handicap index you can do so on the individual members page of the EG Platform by selecting official adjustment. You can add a one or two shot adjustment which will have the effect of reducing all 20 rounds in the playing record by 1 or 2 shots. As more rounds are added these will not have the adjustment so the ESR flushes through.


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## Billysboots (Oct 27, 2020)

Kennysarmy said:



			Yesterday I was 7.8, today I'm 7.2
🤣
Guess someone has found a new calculation method!
		
Click to expand...

We’re still waiting for all our competition data to be correctly transferred. Fully expect mine to change again before Monday, but not to the extent it impacts the number of shots I get on my home course off any tee.


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## Jordanti9 (Oct 28, 2020)

Hopefully I can get some help with this.

Under WHS if play my girlfriends home course. Is it possible for me to play a supplementary round at her course and her mark it then hand it in?

If so do I hand it in at her course or mine? 

Thanks!


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## Old Skier (Oct 28, 2020)

Jordanti9 said:



			Hopefully I can get some help with this.

Under WHS if play my girlfriends home course. Is it possible for me to play a supplementary round at her course and her mark it then hand it in?

If so do I hand it in at her course or mine?

Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

After 2 Nov you can but must register at that club before play and they should enter card.


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## Swango1980 (Oct 28, 2020)

Jordanti9 said:



			Hopefully I can get some help with this.

Under WHS if play my girlfriends home course. Is it possible for me to play a supplementary round at her course and her mark it then hand it in?

If so do I hand it in at her course or mine?

Thanks!
		
Click to expand...

You follow the procedure set out at the club your playing at. I suspect their will be a terminal at the club to pre-register and then enter your score after. Might take a bit of time for clubs to get prepared for this, as they not only get used to WHS but also the fact the PSI terminals have been switched off due to Covid. Just ask the pro / member of staff how to go about it when you are there.


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## Jordanti9 (Oct 28, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			You follow the procedure set out at the club your playing at. I suspect their will be a terminal at the club to pre-register and then enter your score after. Might take a bit of time for clubs to get prepared for this, as they not only get used to WHS but also the fact the PSI terminals have been switched off due to Covid. Just ask the pro / member of staff how to go about it when you are there.
		
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Sorry to sound stupid. But by pre-register do you mean register my intention to submit a card? 

I’ll be asking when I’m there about how I go about it. Just didn’t want to sound stupid when I showed up


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## Old Skier (Oct 28, 2020)

Jordanti9 said:



			Sorry to sound stupid. But by pre-register do you mean register my intention to submit a card?

I’ll be asking when I’m there about how I go about it. Just didn’t want to sound stupid when I showed up
		
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Correct


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## rulefan (Oct 28, 2020)

Jordanti9 said:



			Just didn’t want to sound stupid when I showed up
		
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No doubt they will sus that out when you get there


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## IainP (Oct 28, 2020)

Something I learned from this forum, and subsequent R&A readings is that there are different forms of strokeplay.
Was looking at the handicap allowances, and noticed the difference in how two countries have articulated





For me, well Scottish golf are adding to the confusion 🤨


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## rulefan (Oct 28, 2020)

Not sure what you are meaning. The %ages for each format for England and Scotland tally with the GB&I Rules of Handicapping


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## IainP (Oct 28, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Not sure what you are meaning. The %ages for each format for England and Scotland tally with the GB&I Rules of Handicapping
		
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Ah no, it's the wording.

EGU had split by format and by type which made more sense to me.

Having stroke play, stableford & par/bogey all as formats on SG seems confusing (to me).


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## IainP (Oct 28, 2020)

Little shout for the WHS support at R&A. Raised a query and they replied very swiftly. They'd slightly misunderstood the question so posted another and again came back quickly with it resolved.
Caching issue apparently, can now see some CRs and SRs that were previously not showing.


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## Old Skier (Oct 28, 2020)

IainP said:



			Little shout for the WHS support at R&A. Raised a query and they replied very swiftly. They'd slightly misunderstood the question so posted another and again came back quickly with it resolved.
Caching issue apparently, can now see some CRs and SRs that were previously not showing.
		
Click to expand...

Lucky, as a HC committee member we were instructed to go through EG, not had a response to any emails for over a week.


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## IainP (Oct 30, 2020)

Don't suppose there are any stats knocking about, say from EG, for what % of clubs have done the email upload?

Club I'm at say they are doing over this weekend ready for the 2nd.

Probably isn't the only one in the country but it feels like it!

Nothing like a bit of contingency for potential problems 🤨🙁


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## jim8flog (Oct 30, 2020)

IainP said:



			Something I learned from this forum, and subsequent R&A readings is that there are different forms of strokeplay.
Was looking at the handicap allowances, and noticed the difference in how two countries have articulated
View attachment 33156

View attachment 33157


For me, well Scottish golf for adding to the confusion 🤨
		
Click to expand...

These two lists come from different places at different times

Committees should be using the charts in The Rules of Handicapping manual and the guidance on the Rules of handicapping.


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## IainP (Oct 30, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			These two lists come from different places at different times

Committees should be using the charts in The Rules of Handicapping manual and the guidance on the Rules of handicapping.
		
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Don't think I understand your reply or how it applies to the point I was making.
What terms do the ones you refer to use? Are they available to the general public via the internet?

Here's a link to the one I was querying
https://scottishgolf.org/course-handicap-playing-handicap-calculations/#


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## rulefan (Oct 30, 2020)

IainP said:



			Don't think I understand your reply or how it applies to the point I was making.
What terms do the ones you refer to use? Are they available to the general public via the internet?

Here's a link to the one I was querying
https://scottishgolf.org/course-handicap-playing-handicap-calculations/#

Click to expand...

The table in that link is consistent with the Rules manual but just laid out differently.

https://www.congu.co.uk/whs/


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## Dellboy (Oct 30, 2020)

Just checked and my index has changed, i was 15.8 now 16.8 any reason for the change ?  or is it just sorting itself out ?


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## badgergm (Oct 30, 2020)

Dellboy said:



			Just checked and my index has changed, i was 15.8 now 16.8 any reason for the change ?  or is it just sorting itself out ?
		
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IainP said:



			Don't suppose there are any stats knocking about, say from EG, for what % of clubs have done the email upload?

Club I'm at say they are doing over this weekend ready for the 2nd.

Probably isn't the only one in the country but it feels like it!

Nothing like a bit of contingency for potential problems 🤨🙁
		
Click to expand...

Ours aren't uploaded and no idea when they will be. I'll be amazed if its done in time for Nov 2nd. There will be a whole load of people with handicaps that they wont be able to check in any way. I've calculated mine at 4.6. Initial view on EG was 4.5, which has now gone to 4.2. Suspect that drop was due to using CSSs. Not sure about slope for my course either mind you as we don't seem to have managed to have that done on time either. Rumoured to be 127 and 124 so not too different from the default if 125. (At least I think its the default I don't think that is written down anywhere).

All in all a bit of a shambles.


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## woofers (Oct 30, 2020)

badgergm said:



			There will be a whole load of people with handicaps that they wont be able to check in any way.
		
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If they have registered with England Golf it shouldn’t be a problem.
I have, and can see mine and it’s quite clear which are the 8 best from the last 20, and the averaging works.

I agree that the whole process hasn‘t run smoothly, but suspect there are some politics behind the scenes somewhere. After all who would have thought a ‘world’ handicap system could be fragmented by the Welsh, English and Scottish authorities doing things differently.

Of course, it wouldn’t be golf if there wasn’t something for the majority to moan about.....


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## jim8flog (Oct 30, 2020)

IainP said:



			Don't think I understand your reply or how it applies to the point I was making.
What terms do the ones you refer to use? Are they available to the general public via the internet?

Here's a link to the one I was querying
https://scottishgolf.org/course-handicap-playing-handicap-calculations/#

Click to expand...

That one looks like the one on the WHS slides that were used at the workshops.
The other one is the one from the posters in the toolkit for the clubs to use

 yes as per Rulesfan

https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/CONGU-Rules-of-Handicapping1.pdf
https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/WHSDocs/Handicapping-Advice.pdf


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## Reemul (Oct 30, 2020)

I just had a call from my son's club to say his email wasn't working re WHS. Anywyas it seems as he was 10 when he got his handicap we used my email address which I also use for my handicap. Not good, probably why I cannot get logged in or him either. We have now updated his email address to his own one but not sure what that means for either of us re handicaps, will teh system auto update on 02/11/ regardless or should I be doing something


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## rulefan (Oct 30, 2020)

Reemul said:



			I just had a call from my son's club to say his email wasn't working re WHS. Anywyas it seems as he was 10 when he got his handicap we used my email address which I also use for my handicap. Not good, probably why I cannot get logged in or him either. We have now updated his email address to his own one but not sure what that means for either of us re handicaps, will teh system auto update on 02/11/ regardless or should I be doing something
		
Click to expand...

Wait until 2/11


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## TigerBear (Oct 30, 2020)

Just registered and logged on.

I've been cut for 12.1 to 8.6 which is absolute nonsense, I've not been cut this season but my last medal I would have been 6 over but for an 11 on the card lol!

Sound right?


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Oct 30, 2020)

Apologies if this question has already been raised. On my WHS platform, under "marker", it states that my scores were assessed off the YELLOW tees, slope 130.
I have never played a competition off the yellow tees, always the white or even the blue tees; white is slope 131. Is my handicap incorrect?
Last week I was 11.1, then the WHS assessed it at 11.6, now I'm down to 11.3. Surely the white tees would change it even further?


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## rulefan (Oct 30, 2020)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			Apologies if this question has already been raised. On my WHS platform, under "marker", it states that my scores were assessed off the YELLOW tees, slope 130.
I have never played a competition off the yellow tees, always the white or even the blue tees; white is slope 131. Is my handicap incorrect?
Last week I was 11.1, then the WHS assessed it at 11.6, now I'm down to 11.3. Surely the white tees would change it even further?
		
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The boffins are in the middle of sorting a problem with wrongly assigned tees. But the wrong Course Rating is likely to have more effect.


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## jim8flog (Oct 30, 2020)

TigerBear said:



			Just registered and logged on.

I've been cut for 12.1 to 8.6 which is absolute nonsense, I've not been cut this season but my last medal I would have been 6 over but for an 11 on the card lol!

Sound right?
		
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 That 11 over would have been adjusted to a nett double bogey for handicap purposes i.e. the lowest score at which you would have received 0 points in Stableford. This may well have happened to a lot of your scores.

Have you looked at all your scores on the EG website. Which shows which ones are used having been converted to 'WHS' scores and adjusted for nett double bogeys.


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## 3offTheTee (Oct 30, 2020)

I have been 18.2 all the time since I initially logged on to E G.

looked tonight, no scores added, and I am 18.1.

Does not bother me but anybody any idea why it could have changed please?


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## TigerBear (Oct 30, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			That 11 over would have been adjusted to a nett double bogey for handicap purposes i.e. the lowest score at which you would have received 0 points in Stableford. This may well have happened to a lot of your scores.

Have you looked at all your scores on the EG website. Which shows which ones are used having been converted to 'WHS' scores and adjusted for nett double bogeys.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks Jim thats helpful, i'll have a look. cheers.


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## woofers (Oct 30, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			I have been 18.2 all the time since I initially logged on to E G.

looked tonight, no scores added, and I am 18.1.

Does not bother me but anybody any idea why it could have changed please?
		
Click to expand...

CSS now factored into the results.


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## El Diablo (Oct 31, 2020)

Interesting to see it has now changed to include the CSS/PCC adjustments however there is one glaring omission in my history of results - any medal where I have an NR (and I always keep scoring for the remaining holes) are not showing. 

Has anyone else noticed this with their round history for NR's in medals ? 

Luckily my NR which got me a cut has dropped out of the 20 most recent rounds...


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## jim8flog (Oct 31, 2020)

El Diablo said:



			Interesting to see it has now changed to include the CSS/PCC adjustments however there is one glaring omission in my history of results - any medal where I have an NR (and I always keep scoring for the remaining holes) are not showing.

Has anyone else noticed this with their round history for NR's in medals ?

Luckily my NR which got me a cut has dropped out of the 20 most recent rounds...
		
Click to expand...

No individual round scores are showing you can check your Handicap Record via your club if you are quick,  the conversions will take place tomorrow.
If you record all holes where you have competed the holes and only NR those that you do not the NRs will be recorded as nett double bogey i.e the lowest score at which you would have scored 0 points in stableford.

In the WHS if there are less than 10 holes scored then the round will not count for handicap purposes. Whether or not this has happened with rounds already converted I do not know.


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## IainP (Oct 31, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The table in that link is consistent with the Rules manual but just laid out differently.

https://www.congu.co.uk/whs/

Click to expand...




jim8flog said:



			That one looks like the one on the WHS slides that were used at the workshops.
The other one is the one from the posters in the toolkit for the clubs to use

yes as per Rulesfan

https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/CONGU-Rules-of-Handicapping1.pdf
https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/WHSDocs/Handicapping-Advice.pdf

Click to expand...

Thanks for your links.
Think this is the strangest set of posts I've been involved in on here, but I like a challenge   It's no big deal but I'll have another go.

To recap, I was pointing out that SG have put out on the internet this month, tweeted and on other social media the link that I shared (or the image from it)
https://scottishgolf.org/course-handicap-playing-handicap-calculations/#

I was highlighting that I didn't care for the format they had chosen
I was interested in comments on this - agree, disagree, don't care, don't understand, etc.   
Not - here are some other links, as that isn't really the point.

Rulefan I think you did ultimately agree that the format/lay out was different.

So from Appendix C of the links you shared we see - which to me looks like the version EG shared.  I'd probably give this 8.5 / 10 



So my point was, why have SG put out something different in layout/format?  I'd give that maybe 5 / 10.


My starting point here is:
*Purpose:* Rule 21 covers four other forms of individual play, including three forms of stroke play where scoring is different than in regular stroke play: Stableford (scoring by points awarded on each hole); Maximum Score (the score for each hole is capped at a maximum); and Par/Bogey (match play scoring used on a hole by hole basis).

An analogy might be Stroke Play are fruit, and Match Play are vegetables. Stableford are apples, Par/Bogey are oranges

I've read/heard many a time, things like "I don't play stableford, I only play stroke play"   ("I don't eat applies, I only eat fruit" - eh?)


If you've made it this far, and wonder why I didn't give Appendix C 10 / 10 - well I think just having the first line of "type of round" as "Individual" is a bit rubbish, when the next three are also "Individual".  Couldn't they have come up with anything better?

I notice in the links you provided there are references to "Stroke Play Competitions: Medal; "

Anyway, all done, as I said is no biggie. Roll on the 2nd.


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## abjectplop (Oct 31, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			No individual round scores are showing you can check your Handicap Record via your club if you are quick,  the conversions will take place tomorrow.
If you record all holes where you have competed the holes and only NR those that you do not the NRs will be recorded as nett double bogey i.e the lowest score at which you would have scored 0 points in stableford.

In the WHS if there are less than 10 holes scored then the round will not count for handicap purposes. Whether or not this has happened with rounds already converted I do not know.
		
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How is a player penalised if they NR (with less than 10 holes scored) if it doesn't count for handicap purposes? Assume it still goes in the record as 1 of the last 20? What if someone has a large number of NRs in the record without holes scored?


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## rulefan (Oct 31, 2020)

Presumably the two different people that wrote them had different ideas. Just as you have


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## nickjdavis (Oct 31, 2020)

On the bright side....if we are put in to a national wide lockdown next week, at least it will give handicap secretaries a load more time to resolve all the issues that are undoubtedly going to arise on Monday!!!


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## Wabinez (Oct 31, 2020)

Everything I thought I knew today got wiped out and i‘m confused

my index, at the moment, shows 2.1.

looking at the ‘board’ showing my course handicap at my home club, off the whites, I’d be off 2. Course rating is 73.2, slope 134 and par 72.

the r&a calculator says I should be off 4.

thoroughly confused now!


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## Fish (Oct 31, 2020)

Here’s a daft question, how do you go up once this starts on the 2nd?

If it’s the best 8 from 20, what happens to the scores that are bigger, more so if they’re even bigger than any in the 20, and would have yielded a 0.1, where is that score now calculated?

If it’s best 8/20, essentially you could never go up if you never score better than your current 8/20 scores 🤔


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## abjectplop (Oct 31, 2020)

Wabinez said:



			Everything I thought I knew today got wiped out and i‘m confused

my index, at the moment, shows 2.1.

looking at the ‘board’ showing my course handicap at my home club, off the whites, I’d be off 2. Course rating is 73.2, slope 134 and par 72.

the r&a calculator says I should be off 4.

thoroughly confused now!
		
Click to expand...

2 is correct for those numbers according to r&a calculator. Did you select 'without course rating minus par'?


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## Wabinez (Oct 31, 2020)

abjectplop said:



			2 is correct for those numbers according to r&a calculator. Did you select 'without course rating minus par'?
		
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I chose ‘with course rating minus par’

whats the difference? Why would you get 2 different answers?!


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## HampshireHog (Oct 31, 2020)

Fish said:



			Here’s a daft question, how do you go up once this starts on the 2nd?

If it’s the best 8 from 20, what happens to the scores that are bigger, more so if they’re even bigger than any in the 20, and would have yielded a 0.1, where is that score now calculated?

If it’s best 8/20, essentially you could never go up if you never score better than your current 8/20 scores 🤔
		
Click to expand...

If your one of your best 8 scores fall out of your most recent 20 scores your HI will go up.


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## Liverpoolphil (Oct 31, 2020)

Fish said:



			Here’s a daft question, how do you go up once this starts on the 2nd?

If it’s the best 8 from 20, what happens to the scores that are bigger, more so if they’re even bigger than any in the 20, and would have yielded a 0.1, where is that score now calculated?

If it’s best 8/20, essentially you could never go up if you never score better than your current 8/20 scores 🤔
		
Click to expand...

When one of your best scores is the 20th score and you don’t equal it or better it then your handicap index will potentially go up


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## rulefan (Oct 31, 2020)

Wabinez said:



			I chose ‘with course rating minus par’

whats the difference? Why would you get 2 different answers?!
		
Click to expand...

If the par is different to CR then you must get two different answers.
Everywhere else other than CONGU are making that adjustment so that the "super intelligent" non CONGU players can always say 36 stableford points is 'playing to my handicap'. 
CONGU is doing what they have always done. Compared the score with SSS/CSS.


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## El Diablo (Oct 31, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			No individual round scores are showing you can check your Handicap Record via your club if you are quick,  the conversions will take place tomorrow.
If you record all holes where you have competed the holes and only NR those that you do not the NRs will be recorded as nett double bogey i.e the lowest score at which you would have scored 0 points in stableford.

In the WHS if there are less than 10 holes scored then the round will not count for handicap purposes. Whether or not this has happened with rounds already converted I do not know.
		
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Unfortunately these NR medal rounds do not show at all in the history of my last 50 rounds - they are missing completely which is what I was trying to refer to but perhaps unclear.


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## rulefan (Oct 31, 2020)

El Diablo said:



			Unfortunately these NR medal rounds do not show at all in the history of my last 50 rounds - they are missing completely which is what I was trying to refer to but perhaps unclear.
		
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What status code do they show in the CDH ?


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## rulefan (Oct 31, 2020)

El Diablo said:



			Unfortunately these NR medal rounds do not show at all in the history of my last 50 rounds - they are missing completely which is what I was trying to refer to but perhaps unclear.
		
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I am seeing this with other players.


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## mefromhere (Oct 31, 2020)

rulefan said:



			If the par is different to CR then you must get two different answers.
Everywhere else other than CONGU are making that adjustment so that the "super intelligent" non CONGU players can always say 36 stableford points is 'playing to my handicap'.
CONGU is doing what they have always done. Compared the score with SSS/CSS.
		
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Am I right in thinking then that this means that the 'World Handicap System' is now actually different for us in the UK than the rest of the world? If so, what a waste of time!


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## rulefan (Oct 31, 2020)

mefromhere said:



			Am I right in thinking then that this means that the 'World Handicap System' is now actually different for us in the UK than the rest of the world? If so, what a waste of time!
		
Click to expand...

It has always been maintained by the authorities that there would be minor national "tradition and custom" differences initially. This is one such. 
Another is that some countries will use the rounded Course Handicap before calculating the Playing Handicap (eg the 95% adjustment). Other countries are using the unrounded value.

The effects in both cases is judged to be trivial and will have no effect within that country.


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## Wabinez (Oct 31, 2020)

rulefan said:



			If the par is different to CR then you must get two different answers.
Everywhere else other than CONGU are making that adjustment so that the "super intelligent" non CONGU players can always say 36 stableford points is 'playing to my handicap'.
CONGU is doing what they have always done. Compared the score with SSS/CSS.
		
Click to expand...

I’m still none the wiser sadly.

why do those 2 options appear on the R&A calculator? Surely using the formulae with course rating and slope gives a more accurate representation.

it Now doesn’t make sense that I am now being cut 3 shots to play at the same course 🤷🏻‍♂️


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## rulefan (Oct 31, 2020)

Wabinez said:



			I’m still none the wiser sadly.

why do those 2 options appear on the R&A calculator? Surely using the formulae with course rating and slope gives a more accurate representation.

it Now doesn’t make sense that I am now being cut 3 shots to play at the same course 🤷🏻‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

As I see the options on the R&A calculator they are  *'Without Course Rating - Par' *and * 'Without Course Rating - Par' *
CONGU must choose the first, elsewhere the second.


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## Wabinez (Oct 31, 2020)

rulefan said:



			As I see the options on the R&A calculator they are  *'Without Course Rating - Par' *and * 'Without Course Rating - Par' *
CONGU must choose the first, elsewhere the second.
		
Click to expand...

R&A need to make that so much clearer on their site then.

a WHS that isn’t a WHS. perfect


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## jim8flog (Oct 31, 2020)

Fish said:



			Here’s a daft question, how do you go up once this starts on the 2nd?

If it’s the best 8 from 20, what happens to the scores that are bigger, more so if they’re even bigger than any in the 20, and would have yielded a 0.1, where is that score now calculated?

If it’s best 8/20, essentially you could never go up if you never score better than your current 8/20 scores 🤔
		
Click to expand...

 Just to make sure  you understand what others have said.

The 20 is the 20 most recent scores.


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## jim8flog (Oct 31, 2020)

abjectplop said:



			How is a player penalised if they NR (with less than 10 holes scored) if it doesn't count for handicap purposes? Assume it still goes in the record as 1 of the last 20? What if someone has a large number of NRs in the record without holes scored?
		
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 there is no 'penalty' it simply does not get accepted for handicap purposes.

In your example the Handicap Committee should investigate why a player is submitting a lot of NRs e.g is it deliberate to protect a handicap.


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## jim8flog (Oct 31, 2020)

rulefan said:



			What status code do they show in the CDH ?
		
Click to expand...




rulefan said:



			I am seeing this with other players.
		
Click to expand...

 As already said my assumption is that all rounds that have been converted have been converted using the WHS rules.

I.e. Any score with less than 10 hole scores recorded is not acceptable for handicap purposes.

It is hard for me to see because it is something I never do.


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## abjectplop (Oct 31, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			there is no 'penalty' it simply does not get accepted for handicap purposes.

In your example the Handicap Committee should investigate why a player is submitting a lot of NRs e.g is it deliberate to protect a handicap.
		
Click to expand...

Find that crazy....routinely see guys just punching in 0s for every hole at the moment, probably for vanity reasons. At least under the current system they get their 0.1 like everyone else who misses buffer.


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## jim8flog (Oct 31, 2020)

abjectplop said:



			Find that crazy....routinely see guys just punching in 0s for every hole at the moment,.
		
Click to expand...

And that is something we have been trying to get players to stop doing for years " I am not going to win I will just NR every hole". We even get total NRs in stableford comps!!.

I was doing the cards recently and noticed a player who had put his own 'scores' did this so I deleted his score and went through and put down the scores as they were on the card. Total points 34 with 36 points being CSS for the comp. I.e. he was in his buffer zone and would not get a 0.1 increase.

We have been stressing for years one or two bad scores on the card might stop a player from winning bit still could result in a handicap cut.


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## IanMcC (Nov 1, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			As already said my assumption is that all rounds that have been converted have been converted using the WHS rules.

I.e. Any score with less than 10 hole scores recorded is not acceptable for handicap purposes.

It is hard for me to see because it is something I never do.
		
Click to expand...

Jim, unless England Golf's software works differently from Wales Golf's software, then what you are saying is simply untrue. I, too, hardly ever NR, but on 12th July this year I lost 2 balls at the 5th, and did not register a score at that hole. I continued to keep score for the rest of the round, as we are told to do. I actually played the rest of the round OK. Attached are 3 files. One shows my card as entered into ClubV1. One shows my handicap record on GolfBox, the Wales Golf CDH record, and the other shows a section of my WHS record. Clearly, this round has been discounted from my WHS record, even though there is only 1 NR on the card. I actually used this round in my powerpoint presentation to my members, highlighting the importance of not NRing any round, and a nett double bogey would be applied for WHS. This shoddy software is now making a fool of me. I have been a strong advocate of WHS, but if this glaring error in the software is not fixed, I can no longer sing its praises.


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## jim8flog (Nov 1, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Jim, unless England Golf's software works differently from Wales Golf's software, then what you are saying is simply untrue. I, too, hardly ever NR, but on 12th July this year I lost 2 balls at the 5th, and did not register a score at that hole. I continued to keep score for the rest of the round, as we are told to do. I actually played the rest of the round OK. Attached are 3 files. One shows my card as entered into ClubV1. One shows my handicap record on GolfBox, the Wales Golf CDH record, and the other shows a section of my WHS record. Clearly, this round has been discounted from my WHS record, even though there is only 1 NR on the card. I actually used this round in my powerpoint presentation to my members, highlighting the importance of not NRing any round, and a nett double bogey would be applied for WHS. This shoddy software is now making a fool of me. I have been a strong advocate of WHS, but if this glaring error in the software is not fixed, I can no longer sing its praises.
		
Click to expand...


From the wording of your initial comments I was assuming you were talking about a round where the whole thing was NRd.

It has taken a bit of finding as I only have 2 NRs in the past 3 years both in 2018 but you are right these scores are not on my WHS record

Luckily for me the though we have only been playing stablefords (except for club and senior champs) since Oct 2019.


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## rulefan (Nov 1, 2020)

It's not a problem with the WHS but of the transition software. The transition software would have varied from country to country. In this case the issue lies with the national authority (Wales or England) and DotGolf.


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## IanMcC (Nov 1, 2020)

rulefan said:



			It's not a problem with the WHS but of the transition software. The transition software would have varied from country to country. In this case the issue lies with the national authority (Wales or England) and DotGolf.
		
Click to expand...

I will inform Wales Golf on Monday morning.
Jim, could you upload similar snapshots of a partly NRd round from England Golf that does appear on your WHS record, please? I would like to back up my evidence.


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## IanMcC (Nov 1, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			From the wording of your initial comments I was assuming you were talking about a round where the whole thing was NRd.

*It has taken a bit of finding as I only have 2 NRs in the past 3 years both in 2018 but you are right these scores are not on my WHS record*

Luckily for me the though we have only been playing stablefords (except for club and senior champs) since Oct 2019.
		
Click to expand...

Apologies, missed this part. Looks like England and Wales are all wrong, then.


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## jim8flog (Nov 1, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			I will inform Wales Golf on Monday morning.
Jim, could you upload similar snapshots of a partly NRd round from England Golf that does appear on your WHS record, please? I would like to back up my evidence.
		
Click to expand...

 see my post # 1,481 Edited.  

Now in agreement with you.


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## IanMcC (Nov 1, 2020)

I have written to my contact at Wales Golf, showing him the snapshots and saying that England Golf is in a similar state. No reply as yet, obviously. Definitely too late to fix it before tomorrow, but I dont know what else to do. 
It would appear that DotGolf are a shockingly amateur outfit, if you consider this and the CSS debacle.


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Nov 1, 2020)

Looks like the four week Lockdown will be a blessing in disguise for everyone involved in sorting out WHS.
Seems a right mess to me.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 1, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Apologies, missed this part. Looks like England and Wales are all wrong, then.
		
Click to expand...

I was worried when I read your comments and even more so when I reads Jim's comments that finally confirmed what you had found, so I went and checked some of my players records and can find multiple instances where a player either NR'd holes in a Stableford, or in a Medal but the score IS INCLUDED in their scoring record....in fact for the NR's medal round its actually the players best round!!!

Looks like it is not a universal issue...wonder if it is ISV software dependent?


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## IanMcC (Nov 1, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			I was worried when I read your comments and even more so when I reads Jim's comments that finally confirmed what you had found, so I went and checked some of my players records and can find multiple instances where a player either NR'd holes in a Stableford, or in a Medal but the score IS INCLUDED in their scoring record....in fact for the NR's medal round its actually the players best round!!!

Looks like it is not a universal issue...wonder if it is ISV software dependent?
		
Click to expand...

Are you England Golf or Wales Golf, Nick?
Doesnt seem to be an issue with Stableford scores.


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## IanMcC (Nov 1, 2020)

Probably unrelated, but Wales Golf have now stopped access to GolfBox. This is the message you get when you try to access the site.


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## IainP (Nov 1, 2020)

-- Stay Home, Protect the WHS, Save Handicap Committee --
😲😁😉


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## rulefan (Nov 1, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			I was worried when I read your comments and even more so when I reads Jim's comments that finally confirmed what you had found, so I went and checked some of my players records and can find multiple instances where a player either NR'd holes in a Stableford, or in a Medal but the score IS INCLUDED in their scoring record....in fact for the NR's medal round its actually the players best round!!!

Looks like it is not a universal issue...wonder if it is ISV software dependent?
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure about Wales but the English data input to the transition program was taken directly from the CDH not from the ISVs and processed by DotGolf. I believe this was true of Wales, Scotland and Ireland (from their equivalent CDH systems) but the actual conversion programs may have produced by different organisation (other than DotGolf).


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## IanM (Nov 1, 2020)

Most of my qualifying scores from 2020 are still not showing on the WHS system.  So my HI must be very wrong 🙃


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## Vikingman (Nov 1, 2020)

Can anyone clarify what counts as a score under WHS.  For example, if a comp takes place from measured tees (of any colour) but with lift and place throughout the general area and all bunkers classed as GUR would this count.


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## Chinny (Nov 1, 2020)

Vikingman said:



			Can anyone clarify what counts as a score under WHS.  For example, if a comp takes place from measured tees (of any colour) but with lift and place throughout the general area and all bunkers classed as GUR would this count.
		
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You can have qualifying competitions as you describe* but* under the Rules of Golf, Model Local Rule E-3 (Preferred Lies) to count as a qualifying score the players ball must lie in the General Area *cut to fairway height or less* - This* does not* include all of the general area as per your question ie first cut or deep rough.

During COVID restrictions clubs were also allowed to make all bunkers GUR in qualifying competitions (R&A Covid Guidance Document)

In summary, play from measured tees, preferred lies in GA cut to fairway height or less, size of relief area no more than 6 inches and all bunkers GUR - You can have qualifying comps.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 1, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Are you England Golf or Wales Golf, Nick?
Doesnt seem to be an issue with Stableford scores.
		
Click to expand...

England.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 1, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I'm not sure about Wales but the English data input to the transition program was taken directly from the CDH not from the ISVs and processed by DotGolf. I believe this was true of Wales, Scotland and Ireland (from their equivalent CDH systems) but the actual conversion programs may have produced by different organisation (other than DotGolf).
		
Click to expand...

Yeah...I was more thinking that maybe the ISV leaves some sort of flag or mark on the data (in respect of NR scores) when it is uploaded to the CDH which is then picked up by DotGolf and interpreted in such a way that the score doesn't appear in a players record....unlikely I know but just trying to think why some clubs have an issue and others dont and looking for potential differences.


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## jim8flog (Nov 1, 2020)

Vikingman said:



			Can anyone clarify what counts as a score under WHS.  For example, if a comp takes place from measured tees (of any colour) but with lift and place throughout the general area and all bunkers classed as GUR would this count.
		
Click to expand...


 In addition scores are counting if Courses are allowing lift clean and *replace* in areas which are not cut to fairway height.

Provided the club has model local rule E2 in place

 Ref Guidance GH/4


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## Imurg (Nov 1, 2020)

So..being brutally honest..when I log in at 9 tomorrow morning...what the chances that scores will be right, tees will be right and HI will be right...?


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## larmen (Nov 1, 2020)

Imurg said:



			So..being brutally honest..when I log in at 9 tomorrow morning...what the chances that scores will be right, tees will be right and HI will be right...?
		
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My local Ladbroke gives you 14:1 ;-)


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## badgergm (Nov 1, 2020)

Imurg said:



			So..being brutally honest..when I log in at 9 tomorrow morning...what the chances that scores will be right, tees will be right and HI will be right...?
		
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any handicap qualifier played tomorrow would be a farce. Chances of the handicaps of the field being correct is nil, judging by the threads on this forum.
it really didn’t need to be this way.


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## IainP (Nov 1, 2020)

Imurg said:



			So..being brutally honest..when I log in at 9 tomorrow morning...what the chances that scores will be right, tees will be right and HI will be right...?
		
Click to expand...

Good luck. I'm still showing the previous club and no 2020 scores. Will remain hopeful but confidence is not high.


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## IainP (Nov 2, 2020)

IainP said:



			Good luck. I'm still showing the previous club and no 2020 scores. Will remain hopeful but confidence is not high.
		
Click to expand...

Partial success
Now showing current club and 2020 scores in the list, but none of them used in the calculation, scores beyond last 20 still used.
There's a message, so expect they'll be pulled in soon (& index will definitely increase!)


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## nickjdavis (Nov 2, 2020)

Looks like October scores have been imported to the WHS but not yet applied as part of the index calculation.


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## Green Man (Nov 2, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Looks like October scores have been imported to the WHS but not yet applied as part of the index calculation.
		
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I had scores missing from September and October which are now showing but not part of the calculation as above. Hopefully it will be sorted by the end of the day.


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## Imurg (Nov 2, 2020)

They've found my 75 but aren't using it yet
Index gone up to 7.7
But they're using a score from 2 years ago that isn't in my most recent 20
If I was playing a comp today and logged in at 9am to find my index I'd have got 7.0.....30 minutes later I'm 7.7.?.
They should have run the 2 systems side by side for at least a week......


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## Green Man (Nov 2, 2020)

Green Man said:



			I had scores missing from September and October which are now showing but not part of the calculation as above. Hopefully it will be sorted by the end of the day.
		
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Mine seems to be correct now. All relevant scores counting. Changed HI from 3.5 to 3.0


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## badgergm (Nov 2, 2020)

Mine has mysteriously gone down from 4.2 to 3.8. I cant access the details due to the 'email address upload' issue.
Still saying indicative and may change between now and 2 Nov.
Can' see any explanation on the website of where they are in the process or whether any known outstanding difficulties.

Shambles.


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## ger147 (Nov 2, 2020)

As an IT guy involved in systems development and many large data migrations over the years, have they tried switching it off then switching it on again??


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 2, 2020)

Well only our governing bodies could get this all horribly wrong 

They have been planning for years for this date and even more over the last couple of months , surely must have tested the switch to death but here we are on the first day and it’s a complete mess - what are they doing , my handicap index went from 2.3 to 4.2 because they appear to be no longer using any scores this year ?!


Seems a complete dogs dinner


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2020)

Last night, I was going to e-mail all members to give them some last minute advice as to how to find their Index and how to use it (I couldn't anyway, as Club V1 was down for final maintenance). I logged onto WHS Portal today, and saw loads of issues. I picked 2 random members, and the score diff columns were completely blank for all 2020 scores, but ok before that. Best 8 were no longer highlighted, if they were in 2020. No idea if scores are being correctly used to work out Index or not (I checked one, and it seems not). I also read a few comments on here that seems to clarify mistakes in the calculations.

On howdidido, which is a site members at our club use to sign into comps, see results and view handicaps (associated with Club V1 ISV), the old Congu handicaps are still showing.

So, unless members have access to the WHS Portal, how on earth will they know what their Index is. And, even if they have access to WHS, how do they know it is correct? And, when do I do my handicap review, if most handicaps are, simply put, wrong??? WHS handicaps are much more variable after a round, or potentially so, than CONGU handicaps. So, members will rely on the technology. And, as I have learnt, it seems like a significant number of members, many seniors, have never even used howdidido, let alone bothered about registering with WHS, so I think they will find it harder tracking handicaps.

We have winter league and knockout matches in progress, and I have no idea how many players will actually know what handicap to use, when even I don't know if it will change. There are some new members, whose 3 initial cards have still not been inlcuded in WHS, and probably wont. So, their Index is simply set to equal their Congu handicap, meaning they get more shots on course handicap. For a 28 handicapper, they get 5 extra shots (whereas a 28 handicapper with many scores in their record will have a lower index, and their course handicap is similar to Congu, maybe 1 or 2 higher sometimes). A lady member had a starting handicap of 45, played a couple of good rounds in October (1st rounds after getting initial handicap), and is now 39. Her Index has been set to 45, meaning her course handicap is 56. So, if she were to go out today, she'd be getting about 17 additional shots than she should. This will all take time to resolve.

Shambles


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## chrisd (Nov 2, 2020)

Traminator said:



View attachment 33263


😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 

I really don't know whether to laugh or cry
		
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Play darts instead?


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## Scott W (Nov 2, 2020)

Still missing 7 card and 4 that are in are showing off the wrong tees....oh and I an top 40% in Sussex which is interesting as my club and my home are squarely in Surrey 

If they cant get basic geography right what hope for h'caps

Oh and I was also one of several thousands who's DOB was 1 day out (have you check yours?)


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## sweaty sock (Nov 2, 2020)

Also in the situation where How did I do is currently in meltdown, showing different numbers to the England golf portal and glitching at every turn.

Congu replaced by an older version of the Englang golf numbers.  

England golf portal now ignoring all 2020 scores. 

This should have been delayed. Feel genuinely sorry for the volunteers on competition sub committees.


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## Lilyhawk (Nov 2, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well only our governing bodies could get this all horribly wrong

They have been planning for years for this date and even more over the last couple of months , surely must have tested the switch to death but here we are on the first day and it’s a complete mess - what are they doing , my handicap index went from 2.3 to 4.2 because they appear to be no longer using any scores this year ?!


Seems a complete dogs dinner
		
Click to expand...

Same here. Only new entry after 5th October is a gross 73 for me, but my handicap has gone from 5.0 to 6.6 as it only takes into account my rounds from 2019. 

Edit: And rounds that are outside my last 20. Double


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## chrisd (Nov 2, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Well, top of the works darts 🎯 ladder so maybe I should 😅
		
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But you work alone ?? 😖😖😖


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## chrisd (Nov 2, 2020)

Just checked my HI again this morning and gone from 14.5 last week to 13.6 today 🤔🤔


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## USER1999 (Nov 2, 2020)

I can't check, as HDID is currently not letting me log in to get my CDH number.


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## IanM (Nov 2, 2020)

No golf in Wales currently anyway.  My 2020 scores are not all showing on the portal.  No idea where some of my stuff comes from.  Mind you, if we get back playing, our regular 4 ball with play 4BBB and give each other the shots we did before this and forget about it till qualifiers resume.  If it's still messed up, can't see many folk handing over comp fees on a Saturday morning!


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## IanM (Nov 2, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Just checked my HI again this morning and gone from 14.5 last week to 13.6 today 🤔🤔
		
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Well played...esp in this weather!


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## chrisd (Nov 2, 2020)

IanM said:



			Well played...esp in this weather!
		
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Pretty good as I hadn't put a card in for about 3 weeks


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## Imurg (Nov 2, 2020)

They obviously didn't read the script..
Fancy choosing 2020 to launch anything new....


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## IanM (Nov 2, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Pretty good as I hadn't put a card in for about 3 weeks
		
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...indeed, I was joking...


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## AmandaJR (Nov 2, 2020)

We've had our section emailed to us. Some weird jumps - mainly down due to the course/slope rating I think but even so some look very odd...I'm sure they know what they're doing though


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## chrisd (Nov 2, 2020)

IanM said:



			...indeed, I was joking...
		
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I did assume that 👍


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## nickjdavis (Nov 2, 2020)

Traminator said:



View attachment 33263


😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂

I really don't know whether to laugh or cry
		
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you must be one of those rapidly improving golfers we keep hearing about that clear up in all the competitions.


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## Imurg (Nov 2, 2020)

Mine looks like its caught up..
Using scores from this year and a couple from last year so seems to be up to date.
Gives me 6.2 which gives me 8 ( 2 more than CONGU) shots at home.....I think it's a brilliant system..


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## Billysboots (Nov 2, 2020)

HDID and EG are giving me two different HI’s. And EG clearly haven’t caught up in my case as they are now using results from 2018 even though I have 20 rounds more recent.

Hopefully be resolved by Wednesday, otherwise I’ll have to choose whichever HI gives me the best chance of winning.

😇


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## jimbob.someroo (Nov 2, 2020)

I've gone from 6.3 to 5.7 to 4.5 to 5.8 in the past few hours. Think it's going to be a while before I know anything for sure, which is frustrating as I'm playing elsewhere tomorrow and was looking forward to putting in a counting score from another course to see how it all works.

Doubly annoying is that our club haven't uploaded our email addresses to the England Golf system, so can't get in to see my full account - only the 'indicative' index.

I know there's A LOT that goes into these things, but it feels a bit like they left the technical implementation bits until the last 6 weeks or so, and there's now (understandably) some issues ...


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## banjofred (Nov 2, 2020)

Well, just checked. They have had me at 7.7 for at least a week (average of scores used would put me at about 9.37). Now they have me at 8.3 which I thought was at least reasonable......then checked the scores. They have dropped everything from 2020, using 2019 scores..well beyond the last 20 scores. I'm assuming this is happening to a lot of people.


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## Billysboots (Nov 2, 2020)

banjofred said:



			Well, just checked. They have had me at 7.7 for at least a week (average of scores used would put me at about 9.37). Now they have me at 8.3 which I thought was at least reasonable......then checked the scores. They have dropped everything from 2020, using 2019 scores. I'm assuming this is happening to a lot of people.
		
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That’s exactly my experience. Only one counting score is currently taken from my last 20 - the oldest one. So I’m guessing they are now just playing catch up.

Of note, none of the other 19 scores out of my last 20 has a HI in the column alongside it. I remain staggered, given we have all known the go live date for months, that this wasn’t a seamless transition. It seems to be an enormous mess.


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## banjofred (Nov 2, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			That’s exactly my experience. Only one counting score is currently taken from my last 20 - the oldest one. So I’m guessing they are now just playing catch up.

Of note, none of the other 19 scores out of my last 20 has a HI in the column alongside it. I remain staggered, given we have all known the go live date for months, that this wasn’t a seamless transition. It seems to be an enormous mess.
		
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It could be the apocalypse is upon us. 
1. WHS-ouch
2. US election-
3. Brexit coming- 
4. Virus going nuts again- 
5. Christmas movies have been on for ages- 
6. Weather is 
7. Sean Connery-

I may need to go get a couple of beers.......


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## pauljames87 (Nov 2, 2020)

Just got this from our handicap sec

As per my earlier mails the course and slope ratings transferred from I.G to England Golf / DotGolf are incorrect, we are awaiting confirmation when they have been corrected, until then I wouldn't bother looking as handicap index's shown are ALL incorrect.

Least if courses close hopefully they can sort it out


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## banjofred (Nov 2, 2020)

I'm not too worried about it, things go kablooey sometimes. Although we *were* supposed to have our medal on Saturday which would have caused people to go even more kablooey.


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## Billysboots (Nov 2, 2020)

banjofred said:



			I'm not too worried about it, things go kablooey sometimes. Although we *were* supposed to have our medal on Saturday which would have caused people to go even more kablooey.
		
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Kablooey. Nice word. I’m going to try and squeeze it into conversation.


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## Billysboots (Nov 2, 2020)

And as if by magic, my HI has changed yet again, but we all seem to be up to date. 

Until we’re not.


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## chrisd (Nov 2, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			And as if by magic, my HI has changed yet again, but we all seem to be up to date.

Until we’re not.
		
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So's mine, gone back to what it was last week 🤔🤔


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Just got this from our handicap sec

As per my earlier mails the course and slope ratings transferred from I.G to England Golf / DotGolf are incorrect, we are awaiting confirmation when they have been corrected, until then I wouldn't bother looking as handicap index's shown are ALL incorrect.

Least if courses close hopefully they can sort it out
		
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I've sent a similar message to all members, knowing that there may be a few trying to work out what is going on. Had one member text me directly, before I sent out the general e-mail, saying:

 "No Idea about WHS now mate. According to the R&A my index should be calculated by taking my best 5 scores from the 15 scores in there. Originally they used 4 but now for some reason they've used 2?? I'm confused....thought I understood it"

I wonder how many other golfers are feeling this today.


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## J55TTC (Nov 2, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I'm playing tomorrow and just imagining the conversation when we throw the balls up and sort out the shots...

"What are you off?"

"Choose one of these 3 and pick something out of the air" 😅

Club website, ie yesterday's official CONGU:
View attachment 33265


IG APP, I think it's taking a holiday...
View attachment 33266


WHS website (at the moment) says +3.2 which is clearly not correct yet 🤷‍♂️
		
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My IG app is saying the same... Patiently waiting...


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## nickjdavis (Nov 2, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Just got this from our handicap sec

As per my earlier mails the course and slope ratings transferred from I.G to England Golf / DotGolf are incorrect, we are awaiting confirmation when they have been corrected, until then I wouldn't bother looking as handicap index's shown are ALL incorrect.

Least if courses close hopefully they can sort it out
		
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That's interesting....I was under the impression that you had to manually enter your course information on the DotGolf website....at least that's what my club were told to do back in July...which we did....and, fingers crossed, we don't seem to have half the problems that other clubs/courses do with regards missing scores etc.


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## Billysboots (Nov 2, 2020)

chrisd said:



			So's mine, gone back to what it was last week 🤔🤔
		
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## 94tegsi (Nov 2, 2020)

Mine looks ok now apart from they haven’t included a score from my last medal that I NR’d one hole but completed the rest. Nett double bogie should’ve meant a 6 shot reduction on my current 8th best. Guess I’ll just accept the extra shot that gives me!


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## Billysboots (Nov 2, 2020)

94tegsi said:



			Nett double bogie should’ve meant a 6 shot reduction on my current 8th best.
		
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I’m not sure it’s quite that clear cut. I have scores in my last 20 not included in my HI calculation which, on the face of it, are a number of strokes better than some which are.

I’ve long since given up trying to work it out and am relying on the software to take care of it.


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## Imurg (Nov 2, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I’m not sure it’s quite that clear cut. I have scores in my last 20 not included in my HI calculation which, on the face of it, are a number of strokes better than some which are.

I’ve long since given up trying to work it out and am relying on the software to take care of it.
		
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Its the Score Diff(erential) column you need to look at.
They take the 8 lowest from there..


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 2, 2020)

So situation

1. All the scores have now been entered into the WHS portal and they are now looking at the best 8 from 20 so your Handicap Index should be currently correctly 

2. But because there was an issue with the upload of all the scores from October the ISVs have been told to not do the upload from the WHS to then put all the data on the clubs front end ( which ever it is )

3. It shows a complete lack of testing and understanding the data and the level of the data


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## 94tegsi (Nov 2, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I’m not sure it’s quite that clear cut. I have scores in my last 20 not included in my HI calculation which, on the face of it, are a number of strokes better than some which are.

I’ve long since given up trying to work it out and am relying on the software to take care of it.
		
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Think it’s been confirmed they should be included, and were included in my previous Congu handicap calculation as that.


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## 94tegsi (Nov 2, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Changed again, now showing all scores apart from yesterday's...
		
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So now +5 and you’re joining the tour?


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## Lilyhawk (Nov 2, 2020)

My data has now been uploaded and it looks like the correct handicap on EG WHS Portal. Still wrong on HDID.


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## Billysboots (Nov 2, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Its the Score Diff(erential) column you need to look at.
They take the 8 lowest from there..
		
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That’s currently not available via HDID, presumably because of the transition. Is it hidden away anywhere on the WHS platform because all I can see there is adjusted gross score and HI?


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## Billysboots (Nov 2, 2020)

94tegsi said:



			Think it’s been confirmed they should be included, and were included in my previous Congu handicap calculation as that.
		
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I’m not suggesting they won’t be included, but clearly your HI is based on the average of your best 8 scores, so a good round which would previously have led to a significant cut in your CONGU handicap won’t have quite the same impact on your HI.

I think.


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## Imurg (Nov 2, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			That’s currently not available via HDID, presumably because of the transition. Is it hidden away anywhere on the WHS platform because all I can see there is adjusted gross score and HI?
		
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You need to get into the system. If youre email hasn't been sent over then you might not be able,e to.
If you can and the numbers aren't all there then the system is probably still catching up.


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## Karl102 (Nov 2, 2020)

Our HDID been down and out of action for hours now!


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## Tashyboy (Nov 2, 2020)

So last Thursday I played in a 18 hole stabledord. Finished in bz with 34 points. Won div, only one in it. WHS Hcap has gone from 15.2 to 16 🤔 it also mentioned this on the WHS 

Playing Conditions Calculation: When abnormal course or weather conditions cause scores to be unusually high or low on a given day, a “Playing Conditions Calculation” will adjust Score Differentials to better reflect a player’s actual performance.
It showed a -1 at the side so is that good or bad.

also I played in 2 nine hole Comps off white tees. So is there a reason why they. One up as yellow on the WHS.
By the way I was rammel in both comps.


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## banjofred (Nov 2, 2020)

Yep....like a lot of people....changed again. At least I'm back on to the last 20 scores and 2020 instead of 2019 now. Although.....back down to 7.9. I really need to get off my butt and figure how my average score for the 8 is 81.75 (par 72) but I'm 7.9 in the computer.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 2, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			That's interesting....I was under the impression that you had to manually enter your course information on the DotGolf website....at least that's what my club were told to do back in July...which we did....and, fingers crossed, we don't seem to have half the problems that other clubs/courses do with regards missing scores etc.
		
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I got an index on the golf England website before the club had our slope rating confirmed I think that's the issue 

We only opened as 18 in July been 9 until then


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## pauljames87 (Nov 2, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I've sent a similar message to all members, knowing that there may be a few trying to work out what is going on. Had one member text me directly, before I sent out the general e-mail, saying:

 "No Idea about WHS now mate. According to the R&A my index should be calculated by taking my best 5 scores from the 15 scores in there. Originally they used 4 but now for some reason they've used 2?? I'm confused....thought I understood it"

I wonder how many other golfers are feeling this today.
		
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Normally I love maths and figures 

This kind of stuff gets my inner need interested 

But I've yet to make sense of what they have done 

Trying to manually work it out but the guidance ain't amazing


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## TheJezster (Nov 2, 2020)

It's all a huge pile of mess! Ours are still incorrect, any score from 2019 and before have the default slope details entered (not our actual ones) which have a huge impact on the indexes.

Until it's sorted I suggest you just play off your congu handicap. There isn't anything else you can legitimately do!!


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## USER1999 (Nov 2, 2020)

Mine is a mess. HDID has my index at 10.1, Golf England has 8.5. I have loads of cards submitted over the last two years, but it has taken 6 from 18, not 8 from 20. It has ignored all results from 2020, some of which were ok. 

How can they have made such a flipping mess of this.


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## Billysboots (Nov 2, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Mine is a mess. HDID has my index at 10.1, Golf England has 8.5. I have loads of cards submitted over the last two years, but it has taken 6 from 18, not 8 from 20. It has ignored all results from 2020, some of which were ok.

How can they have made such a flipping mess of this.
		
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Do not despair!

Mine was like that one minute - literally two minutes later all resolved.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			Mine is a mess. HDID has my index at 10.1, Golf England has 8.5. I have loads of cards submitted over the last two years, but it has taken 6 from 18, not 8 from 20. It has ignored all results from 2020, some of which were ok.

How can they have made such a flipping mess of this.
		
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It's been pretty atrocious. Had they said that 2nd November was the day they'd launch the WHS platform to everyone, but would not go LIVE until early 2021, then they could be forgiven. All these problems we are finding could simply be part of the beta testing, and it would have given them a few months to iron it out.

Best case scenario, most of the problems will be resolved in the next day or so, and then the first 2 days of mayhem will be quickly forgotten. But, I don't hold a lot of confidence. Obviously, they are getting many problems reported to them. It would be nice if they published a clear list of the main problems identified so far, which ones are being worked on and which ones will need to be resolved by Club Committees. I know they are flat out, but it would probably save them time in the long run, as it would stop a lot of people reporting problems individually if they'd already acknowledged publicly it had been raised.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 2, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I got an index on the golf England website before the club had our slope rating confirmed I think that's the issue

We only opened as 18 in July been 9 until then
		
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ahhh....thats understandable then


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## Griffsters (Nov 2, 2020)

Mine has been updated during the day however all my results show from wrong tees, CR and slope. Anyone else seeing this?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 2, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			ahhh....thats understandable then
		
Click to expand...

How does HI work like how do I actually calucate it .. nobody seems to give a straight forward answer

I've seen its score minus par ... For adjusted scores etc then add your scores and divide by (2 for me as I got 7 cards)

However how would slope affect this??


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## nickjdavis (Nov 2, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			It would be nice if they published a clear list of the main problems identified so far, which ones are being worked on and which ones will need to be resolved by Club Committees. I know they are flat out, but it would probably save them time in the long run, as it would stop a lot of people reporting problems individually if they'd already acknowledged publicly it had been raised.
		
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I've emailed them suggesting that they do the very thing you suggest.


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## Bwgan (Nov 2, 2020)

Looks like our very latest results have been uploaded and now its actually using the latest 2020 results..
However, our CR & Slope are still wrong for both sets of Tees and whenever there is a result that the CSS was different/PCC this hasn't changed the calculation??


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			How does HI work like how do I actually calucate it .. nobody seems to give a straight forward answer

I've seen its score minus par ... For adjusted scores etc then add your scores and divide by (2 for me as I got 7 cards)

However how would slope affect this??
		
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Paul. For each round, you take your adjusted gross and minus the Course Rating (not Par). Then, for the answer of each of these, you multiply by 113/Slope. That gives you your Score Differential for that round. Then it is the average of the score differentials (for your best rounds, 8 if you have 20 rounds) which gives your Handicap Index

PCC would also figure in the calculation, but the above assumes PCC=0


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## pauljames87 (Nov 2, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Paul. For each round, you take your adjusted gross and minus the Course Rating (not Par). Then, for the answer of each of these, you multiply by 113/Slope. That gives you your Score Differential for that round. Then it is the average of the score differentials (for your best rounds, 8 if you have 20 rounds) which gives your Handicap Index

PCC would also figure in the calculation, but the above assumes PCC=0
		
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Thank you ☺️ just why can't I seem to get that answer from Google it goes into explaining all the bits everyone understands already!!!! Least I can work out my index maybe now .. rough idea


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## pauljames87 (Nov 2, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Paul. For each round, you take your adjusted gross and minus the Course Rating (not Par). Then, for the answer of each of these, you multiply by 113/Slope. That gives you your Score Differential for that round. Then it is the average of the score differentials (for your best rounds, 8 if you have 20 rounds) which gives your Handicap Index

PCC would also figure in the calculation, but the above assumes PCC=0
		
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Going by this formula I should be 24.5 .. my index came back at 20.6 which is prob due to those incorrect slopes


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Thank you ☺️ just why can't I seem to get that answer from Google it goes into explaining all the bits everyone understands already!!!! Least I can work out my index maybe now .. rough idea
		
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If you go to Congu site, WHS section, the WHS Manual is there. Page 46 starts the Handicap Index calculation by describing Score Differential (Section 5.1). The next section shows how that is used to get Index.


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## rulefan (Nov 2, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I've found that for my pea brain, getting to the HI a slightly different way of doing the calculation suits me.

For example,made up numbers (nothing higher than double) :
8 best scores, 72,73,73,77,78,80, 80, 81 = 614.
Course Rating 71.5 x 8 = 572
Average is 614 minus 572, then divide by 8 = 5.25

Then just multiply that by 113/Slope (eg 125) = 5.25 x 0.9 = HI 4.7.

This assumes no change to CSS/PCC but is a guideline.

Once you know 8 x your CR, and 113/your Slope, both of which will be burned into your memory, all you then need is the total of your current best 8.

Hope that makes sense.
		
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That assumes you are always playing from the same tees.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 2, 2020)

Two of those scores are 9 holes .. for some reason it puts them as over 100? God knows but the two that count for my index should have been done on slope of 117 and the other 121 as we played one Comp yellows one white 

So following the advice here I should be off 24.5 

Old handicap under congu was 25.4 so that works out 

But the index has come back at 20.6 .. right now I wouldn't have a chance off that maybe In 6 months


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



View attachment 33272


Two of those scores are 9 holes .. for some reason it puts them as over 100? God knows but the two that count for my index should have been done on slope of 117 and the other 121 as we played one Comp yellows one white

So following the advice here I should be off 24.5

Old handicap under congu was 25.4 so that works out

But the index has come back at 20.6 .. right now I wouldn't have a chance off that maybe In 6 months
		
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I wouldn't worry about it right now. It appears nearly everybody's handicap is wrong in the WHS site now anyway. I was 8.6 yesterday, I'm 7.1 now. Presumably because 2020 scores have been ignored completely


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## pauljames87 (Nov 2, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I wouldn't worry about it right now. It appears nearly everybody's handicap is wrong in the WHS site now anyway. I was 8.6 yesterday, I'm 7.1 now. Presumably because 2020 scores have been ignored completely
		
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I feel for anyone playing in a comp say wednesday lol what on earth would they play off?


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I feel for anyone playing in a comp say wednesday lol what on earth would they play off?
		
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Our competition committee are considering asking players in winter knockouts to play off their CONGU handicaps, as they were at end of October. And, likely to keep that in place until WHS can be trusted. The Seniors have a competition on Wednesday. They did ask me how they should run it, and I suggested they could try using WHS as an early trial run. However, I may message them back tomorrow to tell them not to bother. There is at least one senior who has no WHS record at all. It is as if he has been completely missed out in the transition. And, he had a CDH number, and had been a member for years, and regularly entered scores. I've no idea how many others will fall into this category, it will only become apparent when they try to register with WHS and cannot do so


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## OBI-WAN (Nov 2, 2020)

Is someone able to explain to me the course handicap calculation for plus handicaps. My whs is +3.2, so if I play a course that a slope greater than 113 I could go to +4 course handicap. If we take an equivalent player off 3.2, then they will go to 4. So the gap between our handicap index and course handicap widens from 6 to 8 (i.e. +3 to 3 and then goes to +4 to 4).

If the courses slope is lower than 113, then my course handicap could potentially go to +2 (I know would want to be a very low, i.e 85) and the same person off 3.2 would then go to a 2 handicap, the gap will then go from 6 to 4 (i.e. +3 to 3 and then goes to +2 to 2).


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## 94tegsi (Nov 2, 2020)

Billysboots said:



			I’m not suggesting they won’t be included, but clearly your HI is based on the average of your best 8 scores, so a good round which would previously have led to a significant cut in your CONGU handicap won’t have quite the same impact on your HI.

I think.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, not sure what you mean. All I’m saying is that it doesn’t look like they are including a medal score with a gross adjusted score 6 shots better than my eighth best counting score. In rough terms would be 6/8 of a shot once you factor in the other variables.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2020)

OBI-WAN said:



			Is someone able to explain to me the course handicap calculation for plus handicaps. My whs is +3.2, so if I play a course that a slope greater than 113 I could go to +4 course handicap. If we take an equivalent player off 3.2, then they will go to 4. So the gap between our handicap index and course handicap widens from 6 to 8 (i.e. +3 to 3 and then goes to +4 to 4).

If the courses slope is lower than 113, then my course handicap could potentially go to +2 (I know would want to be a very low, i.e 85) and the same person off 3.2 would then go to a 2 handicap, the gap will then go from 6 to 4 (i.e. +3 to 3 and then goes to +2 to 2).
		
Click to expand...

Correct (I didn't check your maths, but the principle is sound).
For plus handicappers , they will get a lower handicap at high slope courses, and higher handicap at low slope courses. This may not make sense to some, as golfers with a handicap above 0 will get a higher course handicap at high slope courses and vice versa.

However, the reason for the above is because the course handicap is taking into account the relative difference between low and high handicappers. So, at very hard courses for high handicappers (high slope), the plus handicapper will get a lower handicap to increase the number of shots between them and the high handicappers. If slope were under 113, the course is much easier for high handicappers, and so the plus handicapper gets a higher handicap to close the gap between them and the high handicapper.

The slope is all about managing the relative difference between lower and higher handicappers, rather than the actual absolute difficulty of the course itself.


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## jim8flog (Nov 2, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Normally I love maths and figures

This kind of stuff gets my inner need interested

But I've yet to make sense of what they have done

Trying to manually work it out but the guidance ain't amazing
		
Click to expand...

 I have been self calculating mine for months

I worked out mine at 9.5 low and behold my indicative index is 9.5

Looks like they are not getting them all wrong.


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## banjofred (Nov 2, 2020)

Traminator said:



			The par is irrelevant in this.

Your Course Rating (CR) off whites is 73.3, so 81.75 minus 73.3 = 8.45.

You multiply 8.45 by the equation 113/ Slope, which is 113/128 = 0.88.
8.45 x 0.88 = 7.4.

Not sure if my rounding is correct but being 0.5 out might be due to CSS, or indeed might be due to anything really 🤷‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

Actually, because I'm too lazy to really dig into this stuff.....the graph on the WHS site and where your counting scores are compared to the days comp helped me a bit. Most of my scores where under the days difficulty line.....so I guess that by itself would help explain the HI being lower than my actual scores.....hey, it's a theory.


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## AmandaJR (Nov 2, 2020)

I'm intrigued that we've had an email from the General Manager with all the Ladies new WHS Handicap Indexes...seems from those on here that it's not quite the finished article yet.


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## OBI-WAN (Nov 2, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Correct (I didn't check your maths, but the principle is sound).
For plus handicappers , they will get a lower handicap at high slope courses, and higher handicap at low slope courses. This may not make sense to some, as golfers with a handicap above 0 will get a higher course handicap at high slope courses and vice versa.

However, the reason for the above is because the course handicap is taking into account the relative difference between low and high handicappers. So, at very hard courses for high handicappers (high slope), the plus handicapper will get a lower handicap to increase the number of shots between them and the high handicappers. If slope were under 113, the course is much easier for high handicappers, and so the plus handicapper gets a higher handicap to close the gap between them and the high handicapper.

The slope is all about managing the relative difference between lower and higher handicappers, rather than the actual absolute difficulty of the course itself.
		
Click to expand...

Thanks! This makes a bit more sense now.


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## Imurg (Nov 2, 2020)

AmandaJR said:



			I'm intrigued that we've had an email from the General Manager with all the Ladies new WHS Handicap Indexes...seems from those on here that it's not quite the finished article yet.
		
Click to expand...

Some are.
You might find all yours are up to date


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## Crow (Nov 2, 2020)

Mine is now showing with scores from October, handicap index is 16.4 so tomorrow for my final game before lockdown I'll be playing from the yellow tees, off 18.


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 2, 2020)

Very confused as I was 11.6 yesterday and now showing as 13,9 which is 15 off the whites. I started 2020 on 14 and worked hard to get to 12 so feel really deflated. HDID still showing 12.2


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2020)

Crow said:



			Mine is now showing with scores from October, handicap index is 16.4 so tomorrow for my final game before lockdown I'll be playing from the yellow tees, off 18. 

Click to expand...

Careful though. Mine show all October scores. However, it is using nothing from 2020 to calculate my Index


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## GG26 (Nov 2, 2020)

This morning mine had the October competition scores added for the first time, but these were not being used in calculating the index and it was showing at 17.7.  Just checked again and its now been updated.  I had calculated that it would reduce to 17.1 with my October results and that's what it now says.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Nov 2, 2020)

Mine has at least 3 scores missing and a dq with adj gross of 107 included when I did not even play in the comp that day.

I told our clown of a a handicap secretary about this weeks ago and he still has not removed it.

Apologies to other handicap secs but ours is getting paid to do it and the pro has confirmed to him the reason I did not submit a card was I wasn't in the comp


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Mine has at least 3 scores missing and a dq with adj gross of 107 included when I did not even play in the comp that day.

I told our clown of a a handicap secretary about this weeks ago and he still has not removed it.

Apologies to other handicap secs but ours is getting paid to do it and the pro has confirmed to him the reason I did not submit a card was I wasn't in the comp 

Click to expand...

Was that score included as part of you Congu record?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Nov 2, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Was that score included as part of you Congu record?
		
Click to expand...

Yes it was, I have been at him to remove it since the end of August.

To say I was shocked to see I got a .1 back and a handicap increase was an understatement when I was just having a friendly knockabout


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Yes it was, I have been at him to remove it since the end of August.

To say I was shocked to see I got a .1 back and a handicap increase was an understatement when I was just having a friendly knockabout
		
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Sounds bizarre. How did he get your score to enter into the system? Should have been fairly easy to remove.


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## Crow (Nov 2, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Careful though. Mine show all October scores. However, it is using nothing from 2020 to calculate my Index
		
Click to expand...

It's about what I'd calculated and was expecting, unfortunately.


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## louise_a (Nov 2, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I have been self calculating mine for months

I worked out mine at 9.5 low and behold my indicative index is 9.5

Looks like they are not getting them all wrong.
		
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mine too


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## Swango1980 (Nov 2, 2020)

Crow said:



			It's about what I'd calculated and was expecting, unfortunately.
		
Click to expand...

The ones at our club now look to have been updated in the last hour. My Index gone from 7.1 to 8.7.


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## woofers (Nov 2, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Very confused as I was 11.6 yesterday and now showing as 13,9 which is 15 off the whites. I started 2020 on 14 and worked hard to get to 12 so feel really deflated. HDID still showing 12.2
		
Click to expand...

I understand that the calculations on the England Golf Platform are correct, there is a delay in getting these uploaded to the ISVs such as IG and HDID.
Log in to your England Golf account and you should see your correct index.


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## HampshireHog (Nov 2, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Very confused as I was 11.6 yesterday and now showing as 13,9 which is 15 off the whites. I started 2020 on 14 and worked hard to get to 12 so feel really deflated. HDID still showing 12.2
		
Click to expand...

It seems unlikely that you would have dropped 2 shots in one system and gone up 1 in the other, unless you had gone very low and then had another 20 poor rounds.  Had you worked out your expected HI?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Nov 2, 2020)

My name was on the start sheet but there is no obligation to play in comp which I didn't as I was struggling with my back.

When he looked at the returned cards and didn't see my name he assumed I did not return a card so dq'd me with the max score for my handicap.

 I think the hcap sec just can't be arsed as he is at the club most days playing golf himself.....

I've not played any comps since or I could have had a bit of fun with it....


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## larmen (Nov 2, 2020)

The two outcomes of the WHS is that I know my CHD by heart now, and that I have seen pictures of every single fire hydrant in the world.
We only got asked in the middle of last week to give permission to share email and dob and therefore I don’t know yet if my index is right, or why it is so low. Not that I dislike having it that low, it’s where I think I should be aiming at.


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## rulefan (Nov 2, 2020)

larmen said:



			The two outcomes of the WHS is that I know my CHD by heart now, and that I have seen pictures of every single fire hydrant in the world.
We only got asked in the middle of last week to give permission to share email and dob and therefore I don’t know yet if my index is right, or why it is so low. Not that I dislike having it that low, it’s where I think I should be aiming at.
		
Click to expand...

I hope you know your CDHID also


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## Bigfoot (Nov 2, 2020)

My Congu handicap was 12.7 and last week my indicative index was 13.7 and following the weekends adjustment I now have 10.7 as an index - giving 13 at Enville , 12 at Wharton Park and 11 on Harris. That all sounds remarkably sensible - given all the problems noted here, I feel very lucky.


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## Griffsters (Nov 3, 2020)

Well, my Index is more than I worked out. I had me being between 13.1 / 13.3 depending on if CSS was used but I've got 14.0. A bit disappointed really, it means effectively I've gone up as I'll receive 2 more shots on my home course.

Strangely, the tees and course ratings are still wrong and if I search my name at the bottom of the page it comes back as 14.9 - like on HDiD  I'm still hoping there might be another refresh of data and it goes to what I'm expecting/hoping but not looking likely now.


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## jim8flog (Nov 3, 2020)

Checked mine this morning.

We still have a problem over course names  wrong Course and Slope Rating and hence wrong index at least the next time I play in comp  one score affected (shown as 2 better than actual) falls on the the 20 and best 8.  

 IG still not connecting to the WHS.


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Nov 3, 2020)

The BBC has an article on their website entitled "Amateur players face seismic change as new handicap system introduced in Britain".
There are about 550 comments to the article which is not exactly full of praise for the new system.
I haven't read all of the comments, but at a rough guess I would say that the majority are pouring scorn on the new system.
"Far too complicated" seems to be a a fairly common theme. And that is exactly my sentiment.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 3, 2020)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			The BBC has an article on their website entitled "Amateur players face seismic change as new handicap system introduced in Britain".
There are about 550 comments to the article which is not exactly full of praise for the new system.
I haven't read all of the comments, but at a rough guess I would say that the majority are pouring scorn on the new system.
"Far too complicated" seems to be a a fairly common theme. And that is exactly my sentiment.
		
Click to expand...

In my view the new system is only complicated if you want to understand every dot and squiggle of the *workings *of it.

If I accept my HI as I find it, and wherever I play I check the table for my CH - then that's it.  As simple as that.  I then play whatever format of golf I am there for with shot allowance no more complicated than the current variations.

Where it _could _become 'complicated' would be if I wanted to start to try and work out prior to, or during, every round what I must score to reduce (or increase) my handicap index.  But I take that as a benefit of the new system.  It is not so easy for me to 'manipulate' my handicap by working out before a round what I want to score to achieve my objective.

Different perhaps for handicap secs/committees  but for the mere member/golfer - dead easy to adopt.  I don't get the problems that folks are seeing.


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## rulefan (Nov 3, 2020)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			The BBC has an article on their website entitled "Amateur players face seismic change as new handicap system introduced in Britain".
There are about 550 comments to the article which is not exactly full of praise for the new system.
I haven't read all of the comments, but at a rough guess I would say that the majority are pouring scorn on the new system.
"Far too complicated" seems to be a a fairly common theme. And that is exactly my sentiment.
		
Click to expand...

Interesting that *nobody* from the CONGU area has actually used it yet.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Nov 3, 2020)

I've got tomorrow off to get a final game in before lockdown and there is a midweek stableford on. Forecast is lovely so it will be my first card under WHS. Let the fun begin.........


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## rksquire (Nov 3, 2020)

I normally like the detail of the information but I really think it'll be a case of letting it bed in and seeing how it in works in practice over a period of time rather need to know & understand everything now.  My HI hasn't changed (0.1) but I can see that a lot of my scores aren't on the Golf Ireland system (eg, I played 5 qualifiers in September, only 2 on the system, both used as a 'best 8; similar story for August and July'.)  What does this mean?  I've no idea, but we were told at the weekend that it would really be Wednesday before we could take our new handicap as a 'given'.


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## sunshine (Nov 3, 2020)

I really like the concept of the WHS, the idea of introducing comparability of handicaps across different courses is great, but was always going to involve complicated formulae as there are so many variables.

I'm fine with the difficult maths, we live in a world where most people have apps at their fingertips so it will become user friendly and second nature by next summer.

However, I'm struggling with the execution of slope rating. I had a look at a bunch of courses around me and they all had a SI of 128-130, so golfers are typically going to receive the same number of shots across the courses. But there is a huge gap in difficulty across these courses - some of them I would say 4-5 shots for a bogey golfer. Just feels like the CR and BR ratings haven't been done properly.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 3, 2020)

Traminator said:



			My HI is wrong, of that I am 100% certain, however at the moment I'm not sure how wrong it is...

After all these discussions, is there definitive advice now on how the Score Differential should have been calculated for all our pre-2nd Nov scores, ie against CR or CSS do we know?   My CR is 71.5, CSS has been 72 mainly and once 73 (when I shot 70) so it makes a big difference.

Thanks in advance...
		
Click to expand...

The calculations I see on the WHS portal for my scores clearly demonstrate that Course Rating has been used, taking into account any adjustments for CSS


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## Scott W (Nov 3, 2020)

Mine is still wrong (my club uses Intelligent Golf) - I know what it should be as a simple spreadsheet can do the calc if you know the rules - absolute pony - about to go play so no idea what h'cap I should be LOL


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## IainP (Nov 3, 2020)

.


sunshine said:



			I really like the concept of the WHS, the idea of introducing comparability of handicaps across different courses is great, but was always going to involve complicated formulae as there are so many variables.

I'm fine with the difficult maths, we live in a world where most people have apps at their fingertips so it will become user friendly and second nature by next summer.

However, I'm struggling with the execution of slope rating. I had a look at a bunch of courses around me and they all had a SI of 128-130, so golfers are typically going to receive the same number of shots across the courses. But there is a huge gap in difficulty across these courses - some of them I would say 4-5 shots for a bogey golfer. Just feels like the CR and BR ratings haven't been done properly.
		
Click to expand...

Are the CRs all the same for them then?


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## woofers (Nov 3, 2020)

FFS.
We use IG. They have said they are waiting on England Golf / Dot Golf to ‘release‘ the indices.
As such, IG isn’t showing my index.
But My Account with England Golf is - and as far as I can see it is correct.


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## azazel (Nov 3, 2020)

Traminator said:



			My HI is wrong, of that I am 100% certain, however at the moment I'm not sure how wrong it is...

After all these discussions, is there definitive advice now on how the Score Differential should have been calculated for all our pre-2nd Nov scores, ie against CR or CSS do we know?   My CR is 71.5, CSS has been 72 mainly and once 73 (when I shot 70) so it makes a big difference.

Thanks in advance...
		
Click to expand...

I'm in Scotland, so whether that makes a difference or not I don't know. My differentials before being "de-sloped" are listed as 3, 2, 5, 7, 6, 6, 3, 3. Course rating is 70.8, so that can't have been used to create the differential.
After de-sloping, the differentials are 2.6, 1.7, 4.3, 6.1, 5.2, 5.2, 2.6, 2.6, which averages 3.8 and that's the Index I've been given.


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## Ethan (Nov 3, 2020)

Traminator said:



			My HI is wrong, of that I am 100% certain, however at the moment I'm not sure how wrong it is...

After all these discussions, is there definitive advice now on how the Score Differential should have been calculated for all our pre-2nd Nov scores, ie against CR or CSS do we know?   My CR is 71.5, CSS has been 72 mainly and once 73 (when I shot 70) so it makes a big difference.

Thanks in advance...
		
Click to expand...

On England Golf, my WHS has been worked out vs CR, and for each score, an adjusted gross is calculated (probably not an issue for you, not too many large scores), a PCC (CSS correction, none of my 8 counting scores has one applying), leading to a score differential. This is, if you like, a desloped differential. Then the index is formed of the average of the best 8 of 20. 

If you have the scoring record for your last 20 available, post a screenshot or spreadsheet and someone here (including me, but others are more expert) will have a go at estimating the WHS. Mention the slope for courses included too.


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## Ethan (Nov 3, 2020)

Traminator said:



			All replies noted thanks,

Score - CR - CSS - All Slope 128:

69 - 71.5 - 72
69 - 71.5 - 72
70 - 71.5 - 73
71 - 71.5 - 72
72 - 72 - 72
72 - 71.5 - 72
73 - 71.5 - 72.
		
Click to expand...

Nice shooting.

That is just 7 scores, but the diffs are -2.5, -2.5, -1.5, -0.5, 0, 0.5, 1.5, total -5, average over 7 of -0.71, desloped at 113/128 to -0.63, i.e a +0.6 HI, then add slope back in for a course handicap of +1.


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## rulefan (Nov 3, 2020)

Traminator said:



			My HI is wrong, of that I am 100% certain, however at the moment I'm not sure how wrong it is...

After all these discussions, is there definitive advice now on how the Score Differential should have been calculated for all our pre-2nd Nov scores, ie against CR or CSS do we know?   My CR is 71.5, CSS has been 72 mainly and once 73 (when I shot 70) so it makes a big difference.

Thanks in advance...
		
Click to expand...

The original run erroneously used SSS. Since that was reported it is now using CSS. The difference (+ or -) between CSS and SSS shows as PCC.


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## rulefan (Nov 3, 2020)

azazel said:



			I'm in Scotland, so whether that makes a difference or not I don't know.
		
Click to expand...

It may well do. Scotland is using different software to convert their CDH data to WHS.
England, Wales and Ireland are using DotGolf. I believe Scotland have commissioned/written their own conversion.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 3, 2020)

woofers said:



			FFS.
We use IG. They have said they are waiting on England Golf / Dot Golf to ‘release‘ the indices.
As such, IG isn’t showing my index.
But My Account with England Golf is - and as far as I can see it is correct.
		
Click to expand...

We use IG also - and club has said that we are waiting for IG to make our HIs available through the app.  No big deal for me (not even really a small deal) as I know what my HI is through the England Golf WHS site.  Besides - not going to be needing to use it for at least a month.


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## shun_naka (Nov 3, 2020)

Totally bizarre. My handicap was 37 (only joined and played 3 rounds this summer) and now on the WHS its 30.4


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## rulefan (Nov 3, 2020)

sunshine said:



			their fingertips so it will become user friendly and second nature by next summer.

However, I'm struggling with the execution of slope rating. I had a look at a bunch of courses around me and they all had a SI of 128-130, so golfers are typically going to receive the same number of shots across the courses. But there is a huge gap in difficulty across these courses - some of them I would say 4-5 shots for a bogey golfer. Just feels like the CR and BR ratings haven't been done properly.
		
Click to expand...

You seem to have missed the fact that the Course Rating is fundamental in determining the slope. The slope depends on the difference between the CR and the BR. A course with a CR of 74 can have the same slope as a course with a CR of 70.


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## rulefan (Nov 3, 2020)

shun_naka said:



			Totally bizarre. My handicap was 37 (only joined and played 3 rounds this summer) and now on the WHS its 30.4
		
Click to expand...

The treatment of < 20 scores is different. 
_"Those players who do not have the full 20 scores at transition will have a handicap index allocated by the same process as an initial handicap would be allocated and developed." _

What are your 3 de-sloped Differentials?
ie [Gross Score (allowing for net double bogey)] - Course Rating] x [113/Slope]


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## woofers (Nov 3, 2020)

shun_naka said:



			Totally bizarre. My handicap was 37 (only joined and played 3 rounds this summer) and now on the WHS its 30.4
		
Click to expand...

Which bit is bizarre?
Your CONGU handicap of 37 ? Was this a fair reflection ? Do you know how the handicaps have been calculated? 
I’m guessing that you had a round of roughly 33 over par (or course rating) to get an index of 30.4.
Or that you’ve only managed to get 3 rounds in?
Didn’t anyone at your club make you aware of the upcoming WHS, and the desirability of getting as many rounds in as possible in order for the system to calculate a handicap that reflects your current ability?


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## ger147 (Nov 3, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Thanks, so basically the differential is gross minus CSS?
		
Click to expand...

No, it's Gross minus Course Rating and adjusted if CSS <> SSS


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## nickjdavis (Nov 3, 2020)

woofers said:



			Which bit is bizarre?
Your CONGU handicap of 37 ? Was this a fair reflection ? Do you know how the handicaps have been calculated?
I’m guessing that you had a round of roughly 33 over par (or course rating) to get an index of 30.4.
Or that you’ve only managed to get 3 rounds in?
Didn’t anyone at your club make you aware of the upcoming WHS, and the desirability of getting as many rounds in as possible in order for the system to calculate a handicap that reflects your current ability?
		
Click to expand...

This is quite a common occurrence.

In many cases new players have submitted their initial cards for handicap during the summer and been given a Congu handicap and then only played a small handful of rounds, one of which may have been better by some margin than any of the 3 cards for initial handicap. Unfortunately the WHS does not hold records of those 3 initial cards for handicap...all it knows about are the 3 subsequently submitted scores....and given that it only thinks there are 3 scores in the record it allocates a handicap that is basically based around the best score. With 6 scores (which is what the player really should have in his record if the WHS had done its job correctly) then it would be using the best two score differentials as part of its calculation.

Its a system that is inherently volatile when it doesn't have much data but stabilises over a period of time....a bit like a shock absorber.

For the WHS authorities to encourage players to submit scores to reduce the effect of this system volatility, but then omit three scores from new golfers records, seems somewhat stupid.


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## Chinny (Nov 3, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Sorry, thanks for the reply but I just can't make head nor tail of that description.

What does the bit at the end mean, adjusted?
Adjusted how?
Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Hi

I've been following your question and would like to try and help....
I've got most of the data I need but before I can answer your question can you please answer the following questions......

1.  What was the SSS for the course you played your qualifying rounds at prior to WHS going live?
2.  Have you got an 8th score to add?


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 3, 2020)

Well here we are halfway through day 2 and the clubs ISV still aren’t able to connect to Dotgolf so people’s handicap still not being shown on IG or HDID etc - what a complete mess


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## Chinny (Nov 3, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Thanks
SSS all 72 so CSS only moved once
No 8th score yet.

I've been happy with the actual calculation for some time, but how CSS on the old system relates to CR on the new still isn't clear.
		
Click to expand...

Basically the CSS is the new PCC
So on the 3rd round where the CSS went up 1 to 73 the calculation is as follows
(Adjusted Gross - Course Rating) minus (CSS-SSS) x (Slope/113)
(70-71.5) minus (73-72) x (128/113)
(-1.5) minus (1) x (128/113)
-2.5 x 128/113 = -2.8

Basically, if the CSS was +3 you would add this to your Course Rating ie 71.5 would become 74.5

If the CSS was -1 the Course Rating used to calculate your score differential for that round would be (71.5 - 1) = 70.5

Sorry if I've confused you even more but only trying to help


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## Chinny (Nov 3, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well here we are halfway through day 2 and the clubs ISV still aren’t able to connect to Dotgolf so people’s handicap still not being shown on IG or HDID etc - what a complete mess
		
Click to expand...

I've been able to see my new Handicap Index on ig for about an hour now so hopefully you'll see yours soon


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## USER1999 (Nov 3, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well here we are halfway through day 2 and the clubs ISV still aren’t able to connect to Dotgolf so people’s handicap still not being shown on IG or HDID etc - what a complete mess
		
Click to expand...

Mine was on HDID this morning.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 3, 2020)

Chinny said:



			I've been able to see my new Handicap Index on ig for about an hour now so hopefully you'll see yours soon 

Click to expand...

And as if by magic it’s now on there now 

But i understand that Dotgolf are not allowing the handicap records to be released onto other platforms


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## USER1999 (Nov 3, 2020)

I still don't really understand why my playing handicap has gone up. All of my cards were off the blocks at my club, and to go up a whole shot would probably have taken a year. As it is, I have gone up a shot in a day.
If I could previously play to 11, which was bad enough, why do I now play to 12, when nothing has really changed.
And yes, I know the calculation, it just seems daft. Ot would make more sense to me if your playing h/cap at home was the same as your index, and it just changed when you played off diffrrent tees, or went away.


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## lobthewedge (Nov 3, 2020)

Im sure the answer is in here somewhere, but cant be arsed looking through all the posts.

My dad has a new handicap index of 17.4

Our course has a slope rating of 128.

So his new playing/course handicap when out with his mates is (17.4 x 128) / 113 = *19.7*

Is this correct?


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## ger147 (Nov 3, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Sorry, thanks for the reply but I just can't make head nor tail of that description.

What does the bit at the end mean, adjusted?
Adjusted how?
Thanks
		
Click to expand...

As part of the conversion, a PCC value is calculated by taking CSS-SSS and subtracting that from the de-sloped differential.

So where CSS equals SSS there will be no PCC adjustment to the differential. If CSS is higher than SSS, the gross differential will be reduced by the difference e.g. CSS 71, SSS 70, gross differential is reduced by 1. If CSS is lower, the differential increases by the difference btw CSS and SSS.


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## ger147 (Nov 3, 2020)

lobthewedge said:



			Im sure the answer is in here somewhere, but cant be arsed looking through all the posts.

My dad has a new handicap index of 17.4

Our course has a slope rating of 128.

So his new playing/course handicap when out with his mates is (17.4 x 128) / 113 = *19.7*

Is this correct?
		
Click to expand...

Not necessarily, depends on the format being played. And the slope rating to be used depends on the tees being played. The slope may be different off the normal tees vs the competition tees.


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## jim8flog (Nov 3, 2020)

shun_naka said:



			Totally bizarre. My handicap was 37 (only joined and played 3 rounds this summer) and now on the WHS its 30.4
		
Click to expand...

Remember it your HI and not your course Handicap so if your courses slope is greater than 113 your CH will be higher

Not bizarre really they take the best score and deduct two shots from that.
Until you get about 12 scores on your record expect your H.I. to jump around all over the place.
It works like this as you add each score
​5.2 Calculation of a Handicap Index
5.2a For Fewer Than 20 Scores
A Handicap Index is calculated from the lowest Score Differentials in the scoring
record. If a scoring record contains fewer than 20 Score Differentials, the table
below is used to determine the number of Score Differentials to be included in the
calculation and any adjustment that may apply. Round the result of the calculation
to the nearest tenth.
Number of Score Differentials in scoring record

Score Differential(s) to be used in calculation of Handicap Index
                 Adjustment
3 Lowest 1 -2.0
4 Lowest 1 -1.0
5 Lowest 1 0
6 Average of lowest 2 -1.0
7 or 8 Average of lowest 2 0
9 to 11 Average of lowest 3 0
12 to 14 Average of lowest 4 0
15 or 16 Average of lowest 5 0
17 or 18 Average of lowest 6 0
19 Average of lowest 7 0
20 Average of lowest 8 0
49


Sorry table does not cut and paste properly


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## chrisd (Nov 3, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			I still don't really understand why my playing handicap has gone up. All of my cards were off the blocks at my club, and to go up a whole shot would probably have taken a year. As it is, I have gone up a shot in a day.
If I could previously play to 11, which was bad enough, why do I now play to 12, when nothing has really changed.
And yes, I know the calculation, it just seems daft. Ot would make more sense to me if your playing h/cap at home was the same as your index, and it just changed when you played off diffrrent tees, or went away.
		
Click to expand...

Someone from England Golf with binoculars watched your swing?


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## jim8flog (Nov 3, 2020)

lobthewedge said:



			Im sure the answer is in here somewhere, but cant be arsed looking through all the posts.

My dad has a new handicap index of 17.4

Our course has a slope rating of 128.

So his new playing/course handicap when out with his mates is (17.4 x 128) / 113 = *19.7*

Is this correct?
		
Click to expand...

 Partly right.  If the course and *the* *tee *he is playing on has that slope rating you have calculated his Course Handicap not his Playing Handicap.

Whether or not he and his mates using playing handicap is up to them but it will be used in competitions.


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## lobthewedge (Nov 3, 2020)

ger147 said:



			Not necessarily, depends on the format being played. And the slope rating to be used depends on the tees being played. The slope may be different off the normal tees vs the competition tees.
		
Click to expand...

But an average medal off the back tees he would be off 19.7 (20) ?


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## lobthewedge (Nov 3, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Partly right.  If the course and *the* *tee *he is playing on has that slope rating you have calculated his Course Handicap not his Playing Handicap.

Whether or not he and his mates using playing handicap is up to them but it will be used in competitions.
		
Click to expand...

Whats his playing handicap?


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## Griffsters (Nov 3, 2020)

My handicap Index is still showing as calculated from wrong tee, CR and slope. Beginning to wonder if its been overlooked for some reason


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## Old Skier (Nov 3, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well here we are halfway through day 2 and the clubs ISV still aren’t able to connect to Dotgolf so people’s handicap still not being shown on IG or HDID etc - what a complete mess
		
Click to expand...

Being shown on HDID since yesterday and coped with any adjustments made last night.


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## jim8flog (Nov 3, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			I still don't really understand why my playing handicap has gone up. All of my cards were off the blocks at my club, and to go up a whole shot would probably have taken a year. As it is, I have gone up a shot in a day.
If I could previously play to 11, which was bad enough, why do I now play to 12, when nothing has really changed.
And yes, I know the calculation, it just seems daft. Ot would make more sense to me if your playing h/cap at home was the same as your index, and it just changed when you played off diffrrent tees, or went away.
		
Click to expand...


This is the joy of the WHS  put in enough rounds at it reflects your current ability not that of a year ago.

I will have gone up by 3 shots in a year when it is all settled and dusted that would have taken me 3 years under the UHS and by the end of the 3 years I might have needed another 2 shots.


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## Imurg (Nov 3, 2020)

lobthewedge said:



			Whats his playing handicap?
		
Click to expand...

If he's playing the monthly medal then its Course Handicap x 95%.


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## jim8flog (Nov 3, 2020)

lobthewedge said:



			Whats his playing handicap?
		
Click to expand...

 Playing Handicap depends on the competition format being played.

In singles handicap and stableford coms it will be 95%
Pairs handicap and stableford comps 85%
In Pairs match play 90%

various other %s in other formats.


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## Old Skier (Nov 3, 2020)

lobthewedge said:



			Im sure the answer is in here somewhere, but cant be arsed looking through all the posts.

My dad has a new handicap index of 17.4

Our course has a slope rating of 128.

So his new playing/course handicap when out with his mates is (17.4 x 128) / 113 = *19.7*

Is this correct?
		
Click to expand...

Just go to the board at the club and look at the tees he’s using and read across for his course handicap using his index, there are no point anything’s in a course handicap.

Just had our first comp today which unfortunately had to be a NQ as three holes were being worked on but with a bit of coaching every pone grasped the system, perhaps the difference is that they weren’t bothered with the maths just with the index.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 3, 2020)

Been assured by our secretary that the WHS has assured him that the WHS will be sorted out on Thursday. The day after lockdown 😁


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## Tashyboy (Nov 3, 2020)

lobthewedge said:



			Im sure the answer is in here somewhere, but cant be arsed looking through all the posts.

My dad has a new handicap index of 17.4

Our course has a slope rating of 128.

So his new playing/course handicap when out with his mates is (17.4 x 128) / 113 = *19.7*

Is this correct?
		
Click to expand...

The easiest way would be to register on the England golf site and that would tell you 👍


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## lobthewedge (Nov 3, 2020)

Imurg said:



			If he's playing the monthly medal then its Course Handicap x 95%.
		
Click to expand...

Seriously??

So i now have to explain to him that for an average Saturday medal he has a Handicap Index of 17.4, a Course Handicap of 19.7, and a Playing Handicap of 18.7.

You do realize i'm going to get sworn at and possibly something thrown at me!!

What clown thought this was a good idea?


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## jim8flog (Nov 3, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			And as if by magic it’s now on there now


But i understand that Dotgolf are not allowing the handicap records to be released onto other platforms
		
Click to expand...

IG
 I can see it on the app and on the website in 'my rounds' but not in 'my handicap' record yet.


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## Old Skier (Nov 3, 2020)

Updates on data transfer and accreditation​ 
View in browser














WHS Update
3 November 2020



 





WHS Update
3 November 2020​The World Handicap System (WHS) launched in England on Monday and we would like to take this opportunity to update you on several key items of note. 

Firstly, thanks to all clubs who have engaged with us, especially in recent months, to help introduce the WHS after so many years in the making. 

It has been a monumental task – and for that we appreciate your ongoing support and patience while the system beds in. 

*Data transfer* 

Over *15 million* historical scores have now been transferred from the CONGU system to the new WHS. 

This is data previously transferred from golf clubs to the old system. 

We have already had 200,000 golfers engage with the system and start to enjoy the benefits of doing so. 

With such a massive transfer of data there were bound to be technical challenges, but we are dealing with the minor elements of the system that still require immediate attention. 

We can confirm that all historical CSS data has been pulled through from the old system. 

We continue to work on refreshing areas of the data including the mapping of tees.​*Emails and dates of birth
*
In order for England Golf to release a Handicap Index, we require a personal email address and date of birth for every golfer registered on the platform. 

Clubs that have transferred details with a generic club email address should note that these cannot be accepted for reasons of verifying an individual’s identity and to ensure the integrity of the system. 

This week we will begin the process of deleting all generic club email addresses (if assigned to your members' records) from the system. 

This is in line with our policy which has been consistently communicated to all clubs since July. 

Clubs can either input new email addresses for each player via the WHS Golf Club Platform or ask their software provider to transfer this information on their behalf.​
*Golfer and Club Toolkits*

These step-by-step guides to the WHS are still available for download from the following links:


Golfer’s Toolkit
Club Toolkit

Please make use of the range of resources and ensure that the players toolkit is shared with all your members.​


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## jim8flog (Nov 3, 2020)

lobthewedge said:



			Seriously??

So i now have to explain to him that for an average Saturday medal he has a Handicap Index of 17.4, a Course Handicap of 19.7, and a Playing Handicap of 18.7.

You do realize i'm going to get sworn at and possibly something thrown at me!!

What clown thought this was a good idea?
		
Click to expand...

His course handicap would be 20 (forgot the rounding) and like now Playing Handicaps are also rounded to the nearest whole number.

When he goes to his club they will have charts posted by the 1st tee to convert his Handicap Index to a course handicap according to the tee being used. He only has has to make sure his course handicap is correctly recorded recorded on his card  and record the gross for each hole the computers do the rest.


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## Old Skier (Nov 3, 2020)

lobthewedge said:



			Seriously??

So i now have to explain to him that for an average Saturday medal he has a Handicap Index of 17.4, a Course Handicap of 19.7, and a Playing Handicap of 18.7.

You do realize i'm going to get sworn at and possibly something thrown at me!!

What clown thought this was a good idea?
		
Click to expand...

You have it all wrong, nobody’s course or playing handicap will have a point anything in it.  It sounds like your club have not been informing members over the last 3 months/weeks about the WHS.


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## Lilyhawk (Nov 3, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			His course handicap would be 20 (forgot the rounding) and like now Playing Handicaps are also rounded to the nearest whole number.

When he goes to his club they will have charts posted by the 1st tee to convert his Handicap Index to a course handicap according to the tee being used. He only has has to make sure his course handicap is correctly recorded recorded on his card  and *record the gross for each hole the computers do the rest.*

Click to expand...

What do we put in the total score in a stableford with blobs? The stableford score? Can imagine a lot of people with a course handicap of 11 and above forget to take 95% to get their playing handicap, so they would then put in the wrong stableford points in the total score.


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## lobthewedge (Nov 3, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			You have it all wrong, nobody’s course or playing handicap will have a point anything in it.  It sounds like your club have not been informing members over the last 3 months/weeks about the WHS.
		
Click to expand...

To be fair they have, but i dont really bother with my handicap, only interested in scratch comps.

My old man doesnt do emails, so has missed all the info.  Just as well or he would probably have chucked his clubs and bought a set of bowls!


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## jim8flog (Nov 3, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			What do we put in the total score in a stableford with blobs? The stableford score? Can imagine a lot of people with a course handicap of 11 and above forget to take 95% to get their playing handicap, so they would then put in the wrong stableford points in the total score.
		
Click to expand...


 It does not matter if a player gets the Stableford points wrong. The committee is responsible for applying the handicap to get the stableford points and any errors in stableford points are corrected by the software. It is a mistake often made by players under the current system.

In stableford scoring it is important to only put a NR , a dash or leave blank in the gross score when the players knows they could not score any points based upon the Course Handicap and not the Playing Handicap.


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## Old Skier (Nov 3, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			What do we put in the total score in a stableford with blobs? The stableford score? Can imagine a lot of people with a course handicap of 11 and above forget to take 95% to get their playing handicap, so they would then put in the wrong stableford points in the total score.
		
Click to expand...

Tested this today. If it’s a stableford comp and your entering gross scores you put in a 0 you now also put in your markers name from a drop down and at the end you electronically signed the screen.


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## Lilyhawk (Nov 3, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			It does not matter if a player gets the Stableford points wrong. The committee is responsible for applying the handicap to get the stableford points and any errors in stableford points are corrected by the software. It is a mistake often made by players under the current system.

In stableford scoring it is important to only put a NR , a dash or leave blank in the gross score when the players knows they could not score any points based upon the Course Handicap and not the Playing Handicap.
		
Click to expand...

Ah, then it's clear as a bell. Thanks!


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## Lilyhawk (Nov 3, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Tested this today. If it’s a stableford comp and your entering gross scores you put in a 0 you now also put in your markers name from a drop down and at the end you electronically signed the screen.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, the electronic part I've always understood as the computer works it magic. It's just been the physical scorecard, and I've thought that if I put, say 38 points as total, if it actually was 37, I could've rendered a DQ. 

I've learnt something new today!


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## AmandaJR (Nov 3, 2020)

Well the email we had detailing all Indexes seems to have been incorrect as it gave me 6.0 and now on the club website it's 5.6. Same handicap off the reds though (7).

It's a bloody mess!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 3, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			What do we put in the total score in a stableford with blobs? The stableford score? Can imagine a lot of people with a course handicap of 11 and above forget to take 95% to get their playing handicap, so they would then put in the wrong stableford points in the total score.
		
Click to expand...

I was told by the club that when playing a singles comp I should play with my CH in mind - and let the club/system sort out my PH for the round and what I points I finally end up with.  That way I avoid such as making any mistake in respect of the number of shots I get in a stableford scoring round and so pick up when I could still have scored.  My PH will always be less than by CH so if I play with my CH in mind I can't lose out.


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## Chinny (Nov 3, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Playing Handicap depends on the competition format being played.

In singles handicap and stableford coms it will be 95%
Pairs handicap and stableford comps 85%
In Pairs match play 90%

various other %s in other formats.
		
Click to expand...

Thought pairs match play was 95%


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## Old Skier (Nov 3, 2020)

Chinny said:



			Thought pairs match play was 95% 

Click to expand...

Yours is match play the 85% was BB


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## lobthewedge (Nov 3, 2020)

Seriously - what a load of pish!

How is this nonsense making the game easier, more accessible and user friendly for the average golfer?

I could almost buy into having a 'handicap index' that you could take to other courses and get a new 'course handicap'.  But this 'playing handicap' would appear to be an unnecessary added step in an already bloated and confusing system.


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## jim8flog (Nov 3, 2020)

Chinny said:



			Thought pairs match play was 95% 

Click to expand...

I believe there was one chart that came out that incorrectly showed 95%.


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## jim8flog (Nov 3, 2020)

lobthewedge said:



			Seriously - what a load of pish!

How is this nonsense making the game easier, more accessible and user friendly for the average golfer?

I could almost buy into having a 'handicap index' that you could take to other courses and get a new 'course handicap'.  But this 'playing handicap' would appear to be an unnecessary added step in an already bloated and confusing system.
		
Click to expand...

 As has been discussed on several other threads handicap index to course handicap favours higher handicaps.  Playing handicap is a means of applying a slight correction to this.

eg on an average course of with a slope of 125
 a player with a  H.I of 9 has a Course handicap of 10 (ie one shot more then their HI) and PH of 10
a player with a HI of 29 has A CH of 32 (ie 3 shots more than their HI) and a PH of 30

so each player only receives one extra shot to their H.I in a singles competition and the gap between them remains 20 shots.


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## rulefan (Nov 3, 2020)

Lilyhawk said:



			Yeah, the electronic part I've always understood as the computer works it magic. It's just been the physical scorecard, and I've thought that if I put, say 38 points as total, if it actually was 37, I could've rendered a DQ.

I've learnt something new today!
		
Click to expand...

You have* never *been required to enter stableford points. Only the gross strokes for the hole.


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## jimbob.someroo (Nov 3, 2020)

Played today and couldn’t sign in to put a card in as neither my club, nor the one I played at, have got themselves sorted out yet. 

Particularly frustrating as I had my best round of what’s been a pretty crap year on the course. Hoping that clubs and England Golf use the next 4 weeks to get lots of the niggles sorted again so that any future 71’s I shoot might actually count for something!


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## Chinny (Nov 3, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I believe there was one chart that came out that incorrectly showed 95%.
		
Click to expand...

Is this chart wrong?


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## Old Skier (Nov 3, 2020)

Chinny said:



			Is this chart wrong?
		
Click to expand...

That looks right


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## lobthewedge (Nov 3, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			As has been discussed on several other threads handicap index to course handicap favours higher handicaps.  Playing handicap is a means of applying a slight correction to this.

eg on an average course of with a slope of 125
a player with a  H.I of 9 has a Course handicap of 10 (ie one shot more then their HI) and PH of 10
a player with a HI of 29 has A CH of 32 (ie 3 shots more than their HI) and a PH of 30

so each player only receives one extra shot to their H.I in a singles competition and the gap between them remains 20 shots.
		
Click to expand...

So the new system designed to give people a more realistic and helpful handicap when playing a harder away course, is in fact too helpful to those most in need, so they add a step to penalise them back down?? 🤔

This just gets better and better!

Was this thought up by an ex hmrc employee?


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## Lilyhawk (Nov 3, 2020)

rulefan said:



			You have* never *been required to enter stableford points. Only the gross strokes for the hole.
		
Click to expand...

Hence, “I thought”.


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## IainP (Nov 3, 2020)

lobthewedge said:



			Seriously??

So i now have to explain to him that for an average Saturday medal he has a Handicap Index of 17.4, a Course Handicap of 19.7, and a Playing Handicap of 18.7.

You do realize i'm going to get sworn at and possibly something thrown at me!!

What clown thought this was a good idea?
		
Click to expand...

Playing devil's advocate...
Previously did you need to explain his handicap was 17.4, and therefore his playing handicap was 17?
Or did he suss it out after a few weeks....


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## IainP (Nov 3, 2020)

Chinny said:



			Is this chart wrong?
		
Click to expand...

This one downloads a pdf
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIDRAB&usg=AOvVaw0t25jpjZ4DEFlBt4Wul-kC


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## lobthewedge (Nov 3, 2020)

IainP said:



			Playing devil's advocate...
Previously did you need to explain his handicap was 17.4, and therefore his playing handicap was 17?
Or did he suss it out after a few weeks....
		
Click to expand...

I think you're missing my point, the decimal points are irrelevant and not my issue.
The point I was making is that he now has several different numbers that can be deemed his handicap.


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## IainP (Nov 3, 2020)

lobthewedge said:



			I think you're missing my point, the decimal points are irrelevant and not my issue.
The point I was making is that he now has several different numbers that can be deemed his handicap.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think I was. I was making the point that pre WHS, he had an exact handicap and "calculated" a playing handicap from it.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 3, 2020)

From England Golf:

_This week we will begin the process of deleting all generic club email addresses (if assigned to your members' records) from the system.  _

I wonder who will be making the judgement call as to what is a generic email address designed to circumvent the system and one that might have been created by a club in order to help out a player (or players) who don't have an email address?

They really should concentrate on resolving all current issues before starting doing things that may create other problems for clubs.


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## USER1999 (Nov 3, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Someone from England Golf with binoculars watched your swing?
		
Click to expand...

I wonder if their stomache has recovered yet?


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## woofers (Nov 3, 2020)

lobthewedge said:



			I think you're missing my point, the decimal points are irrelevant and not my issue.
The point I was making is that he now has several different numbers that can be deemed his handicap.
		
Click to expand...

Great.
You understood Exact and Playing Handicaps in CONGU though? What about CSS being potentially different from SSS being different from Par ? You understood that ?
But you ‘can’t be arsed to read through this thread’ and your ‘old man doesn‘t “do” emails’. Have you bothered to keep up to date with England Golf or your clubs attempts to educate members about WHS?
You must be a delight to communicate with.


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## Foxholer (Nov 3, 2020)

lobthewedge said:



			Seriously??

So i now have to explain to him that for an average Saturday medal he has a Handicap Index of 17.4, a Course Handicap of 19.7, and a Playing Handicap of 18.7.

You do realize i'm going to get sworn at and possibly something thrown at me!!

*What clown thought this was a good idea?*

Click to expand...

Well pretty much everyone is used to the likes of how shot allocation works in Pairs matches, so not all that different. 
It wouldn't be too much trouble for someone to create a chart (for each tee set at the club) that could provide the translation - especially for the likes of Medals. All it needs is 2 columns (per tee set) - Index Range -> Playing Handicap (rounded)


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## Foxholer (Nov 3, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			It does not matter if a player gets the Stableford points wrong. The committee is responsible for applying the handicap to get the stableford points and any errors in stableford points are corrected by the software. It is a mistake often made by players under the current system...
		
Click to expand...

And I believe this has always been the case!!


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## rulefan (Nov 3, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			And I believe this has always been the case!!
		
Click to expand...

Post #1683


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## lobthewedge (Nov 3, 2020)

woofers said:



			Great.
You understood Exact and Playing Handicaps in CONGU though? What about CSS being potentially different from SSS being different from Par ? You understood that ?
But you ‘can’t be arsed to read through this thread’ and your ‘old man doesn‘t “do” emails’. Have you bothered to keep up to date with England Golf or your clubs attempts to educate members about WHS?
You must be a delight to communicate with.
		
Click to expand...

I just dont see the comparison between rounding up or down to get your playing handicap on the old Congu with this new system. A lot of people will be confused by it.
Like I said previously I personally dont bother much with my handicap, I'm more interested in scratch results, so I chose to ignore the emails. I just dont care, certainly not enough to look up England Golf when I live and play in scotland.
I cant answer for the old fella reading his emails or not, but I know he glazed over when I started trying to explain the handicap index wasnt his actual handicap. I dont think he'll be alone, and the very fact this thread is 85 frickin pages long would suggest the same.


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## lobthewedge (Nov 3, 2020)

IainP said:



			I don't think I was. I was making the point that pre WHS, he had an exact handicap and "calculated" a playing handicap from it.
		
Click to expand...

I understand where you are coming from, but rounding up or down to a full number is entirely different from this if you ask me.
Just my opinion though.


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## jim8flog (Nov 3, 2020)

Chinny said:



			Is this chart wrong?
		
Click to expand...




Old Skier said:



			That looks right
		
Click to expand...

 That looks to me like the chart used at the workshop in the slides. This was the original chart which was amended 

The correct chart can be found in this

https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/CONGU-Rules-of-Handicapping1.pdf
Appendix C


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## Old Skier (Nov 3, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			That looks to me like the chart used at the workshop in the slides. This was the original chart which was amended

The correct chart can be found in this

https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/CONGU-Rules-of-Handicapping1.pdf
Appendix C
		
Click to expand...

I think I’m getting cross eyed, I can’t find the chart anywhere


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## jim8flog (Nov 3, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			I think I’m getting cross eyed, I can’t find the chart anywhere
		
Click to expand...

 Appendix C page 93 of the PDF


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 3, 2020)

Anybody know if there’s a pre registering for a round option on the IG app or webpage? or would I expect to see an option on the computer? 
I know HDID have this option. 

Hope it’s not down to our handicap chaps because they are pants and lazy.


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## yandabrown (Nov 4, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Anybody know if there’s a pre registering for a round option on the IG app or webpage? or would I expect to see an option on the computer?
I know HDID have this option.

Hope it’s not down to our handicap chaps because they are pants and lazy.
		
Click to expand...

I've never used it but go to Handicap and click top right. It needs location services turned on. Looks like you can register there, not sure what happens after that.


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 4, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			I've never used it but go to Handicap and click top right. It needs location services turned on. Looks like you can register there, not sure what happens after that.
		
Click to expand...

I would of never found that! 
Had to update the app and turn the phone on and off for it allow me to enable location services.
Should be set for the morning.


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## jim8flog (Nov 4, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			Anybody know if there’s a pre registering for a round option on the IG app or webpage? or would I expect to see an option on the computer?
I know HDID have this option.

Hope it’s not down to our handicap chaps because they are pants and lazy.
		
Click to expand...

Yes there is and you can find a video on youtube on how to use it. You must be at the course to start the process at it time stamps entry to ensure you register before the round an not after.

Just remember (at this time of the year in particular)  the courses must be in qualifying rounds condition e.g. no more than 2 temporary greens ( Bit frustrating I was going to one today and we still have 3 such greens), if your course has a winter course set up it must be a measured course.


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## Humpy (Nov 4, 2020)

Does anyone else show a different index at the top of the screen and then underneath My Scores?

My headline figure shows 8.2 but the latest index under My Scores shows 7.6.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 4, 2020)

Humpy said:



			Does anyone else show a different index at the top of the screen and then underneath My Scores?

My headline figure shows 8.2 but the latest index under My Scores shows 7.6.
		
Click to expand...

I believe that’s the lowest handicap index you have had at one point


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## Humpy (Nov 4, 2020)

That doesn't seem to be the case as the index showing alongside a score I had in November 2018 was 2.9!


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## DanFST (Nov 4, 2020)

HC has gone from my V1 app. Can't login to HDID i just get the screen below which cant find me. Playing at 12, no idea what i'm off.....


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## woofers (Nov 4, 2020)

Humpy said:



			Does anyone else show a different index at the top of the screen and then underneath My Scores?

My headline figure shows 8.2 but the latest index under My Scores shows 7.6.
		
Click to expand...

Isn’t the figure against the scores the Handicap Index you had when you played that round.


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## woofers (Nov 4, 2020)

DanFST said:



			HC has gone from my V1 app. Can't login to HDID i just get the screen below which cant find me. Playing at 12, no idea what i'm off.....
	View attachment 33318

Click to expand...

Have you consented to your club giving your email and date of birth ? if not, that could be the reason.
Alternatively have you registered with England Golf to activate your account?


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## Humpy (Nov 4, 2020)

woofers said:



			Isn’t the figure against the scores the Handicap Index you had when you played that round.
		
Click to expand...

Possibly although on the graph that is also shown, the green line denoting the index is under 8.


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## woofers (Nov 4, 2020)

Humpy said:



			Possibly although on the graph that is also shown, the green line denoting the index is under 8.
		
Click to expand...

That sounds right. The green line is your ‘rolling’ handicap index and would be under 8 (7.6) as at that round.


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## Ethan (Nov 4, 2020)

Mine finally sorted. Needed the club to manually enter the missing score, but the computer now says yes, and my index has dropped to 7.9.


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## Scott W (Nov 4, 2020)

I got a reply from WHS about my missing scores and scores off the wrong tees

Regarding wrong tees - they said it was fixed so I sent a screen shot from their website showing it wasnt - no reply yet

Regarding missing scores (7 rounds) I was told they were all NR's - however the three comps from Jan/Feb/March were all stableford - surely they can be included - just with net double for a blobbed hole - there was an adjusted gross score for these in the system before

Its only cos I am a bit of a golf nerd that this irritates me - should just let it go but with so many cards missing my Index is currently based of only 3 cards and therefore will be volatile as I get back to 20 in total


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## Bwgan (Nov 4, 2020)

Humpy said:



			Possibly although on the graph that is also shown, the green line denoting the index is under 8.
		
Click to expand...

Same here, Top number is showing 11.9 and the detail below/line is 12.0  (there's a bigger variance with my old mans numbers!)
My current theory is the main number is showing the HI from the end of 2019... is that true for you?

But this is all just minor details.... our slopes etc are still wrong. Lucky we don't pay for this.... oh hang on


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## Scott W (Nov 4, 2020)

So washed there hands of any omissions now - bet clubs are chuffed


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## Humpy (Nov 4, 2020)

woofers said:



			That sounds right. The green line is your ‘rolling’ handicap index and would be under 8 (7.6) as at that round.
		
Click to expand...

So the graph wouldn't include the latest score that changed my index from 7.6 to 8.2? That makes no sense.


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## jonfSAOLGC (Nov 4, 2020)

Has anyone had an explanation re missing NR's? I have 4 scores missing that should be in my last 20, all NR's in Singles Medal comps


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## Scott W (Nov 4, 2020)

jonfSAOLGC said:



			Has anyone had an explanation re missing NR's? I have 4 scores missing that should be in my last 20, all NR's in Singles Medal comps
		
Click to expand...

I got this from Gemma at WHS ....

_Hi Scott,

We have checked the tees and these now appear to be correct, in regard to the missing scores these where NR, which have been excluded due to the system not receiving any scoring data.

Regards
Gemma_

...which is bobbins as several were stableford comps where you have the odd blob but count to handicap - at least did under CONGU!!


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## larmen (Nov 4, 2020)

I am still not able to log in, but I know that of my 11 rounds I only have 5 without a single NR. That could explain my much lower index than expected. Not unhappy about it, as they are my more recent rounds and a fairer view of where I am. Looking forward to try and log in.

But I can see on my IntelligentGolf app that they removed the congu and are trying to connect to WHS now, so there is some progress at least.


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## jonfSAOLGC (Nov 4, 2020)

Scott W said:



			I got this from Gemma at WHS ....

_Hi Scott,_

_We have checked the tees and these now appear to be correct, in regard to the missing scores these where NR, which have been excluded due to the system not receiving any scoring data._

_Regards
Gemma_

...which is bobbins as several were stableford comps where you have the odd blob but count to handicap - at least did under CONGU!!
		
Click to expand...

So I assume club need to enter scoring data for system to work out adjusted gross. These missing scores don't affect my new index, from my calculations, but surely should be in my last 20 to better reflect my current ability...or lack of


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## IanM (Nov 4, 2020)

Scott W said:



View attachment 33320

Click to expand...

this is clearly not the case!


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## petema99 (Nov 4, 2020)

has anyone who played a comp over the weekend had that score added to whs or is it just mine that's missing?


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## IanM (Nov 4, 2020)

petema99 said:



			has anyone who played a comp over the weekend had that score added to whs or is it just mine that's missing?
		
Click to expand...

....what  are the chances?

Under the old system, you played poorly, you knew 0.1 was coming your way...play very well, a cut appeared.  Any issues, you knew who to ask.   Now??  The Office/Handicap Committee will offer up some version of a well worn line from Little Britain, and have no idea what to do about it.

Maybe it'll sort itself out... one day


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 4, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Yes there is and you can find a video on youtube on how to use it. You must be at the course to start the process at it time stamps entry to ensure you register before the round an not after.

Just remember (at this time of the year in particular)  the courses must be in qualifying rounds condition e.g. no more than 2 temporary greens ( Bit frustrating I was going to one today and we still have 3 such greens), if your course has a winter course set up it must be a measured course.
		
Click to expand...

Not on any winter restrictions, but intended on putting a 9 hole score in as the back is brutal, but this morning but was frosty so decided against it, was 2 over gross front 9. Sod’s law and that. Overheard a few visitors setting off on our other course pre registering.


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## Green Man (Nov 4, 2020)

Does the new system still base your score on Stableford points as Congu? For example if you had no shot on a Par 4 and you missed for a 5 you could pick up for 0 points and record a 0 on your score return. 

With WHS if you record a 0 on a par 4 now does it go down as a double par 8? If so does this mean you need to finish out holes in a stableford comp even if you can't score?


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## Ethan (Nov 4, 2020)

Green Man said:



			Does the new system still base your score on Stableford points as Congu? For example if you had no shot on a Par 4 and you missed for a 5 you could pick up for 0 points and record a 0 on your score return.

With WHS if you record a 0 on a par 4 now does it go down as a double par 8? If so does this mean you need to finish out holes in a stableford comp even if you can't score?
		
Click to expand...

It will put in an adjusted score for WHS purposes of net double bogey, so same as 0 points.


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## jim8flog (Nov 4, 2020)

Green Man said:



			Does the new system still base your score on Stableford points as Congu? For example if you had no shot on a Par 4 and you missed for a 5 you could pick up for 0 points and record a 0 on your score return.

With WHS if you record a 0 on a par 4 now does it go down as a double par 8? If so does this mean you need to finish out holes in a stableford comp even if you can't score?
		
Click to expand...

 Aa per Ethan 

You make pick the ball up at any hole where you know you can longer score a point based upon your Course Handicap and not your Playing Handicap

Twice the par is for Initial Handicap purposes only.


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## jim8flog (Nov 4, 2020)

Humpy said:



			Does anyone else show a different index at the top of the screen and then underneath My Scores?

My headline figure shows 8.2 but the latest index under My Scores shows 7.6.
		
Click to expand...

 When it was first on the WHS portal it was an indicative index only and the headline figure and the one against individual records was different. 
Comps in October had not yet gone on to the WHS site and for a while. These even though transferred were not in the calculation until a day ago

Mine now matches.


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## IanMcC (Nov 4, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Comps in October had not yet gone on to the WHS site and for a while. These even though transferred were not in the calculation until a day ago

Mine now matches.
		
Click to expand...

I don't think my one comp after October 4th will ever see the light of day. It had a couple of NR holes.


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## jim8flog (Nov 4, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			I don't think my one comp after October 4th will ever see the light of day. It had a couple of NR holes.
		
Click to expand...

Just checked my October comps and there are no hole scores recorded on the WHS portal just the adjusted gross so at least it is working in Stableford comps.

 It will be interesting to see what happens now we are WHS live.

 Mind for me that means sometime next April as that is the earliest date at which we stop making all our comps Stablefords.


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## IanMcC (Nov 4, 2020)

We don't have any 'acceptable' comps now till March. (Thank Christ!! )


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## 3offTheTee (Nov 4, 2020)

Played 4BBB a matchplay today. The other 3 thought their course handicap was what they should play off and take shots from the lowest handicapper.

I tried to explain but they were not interested. These were 3 guys with over 120 years of playing between them!


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## jim8flog (Nov 4, 2020)

Traminator said:



			That would make sense, what is the correct procedure?
		
Click to expand...

The correct procedure is that each player calculates their playing handicap (90% allowance) and then shots get taken off the lowest handicap player.


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## Old Skier (Nov 4, 2020)

Surely the calculation is done off the course handicap the same way as before


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 4, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			The correct procedure is that each player calculates their playing handicap (90% allowance) and then shots get taken off the lowest handicap player.
		
Click to expand...

When did that become the correct procedure?

It’s just the same as before - each player takes 90% difference from the lowest player using course handicap ?


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## rulefan (Nov 4, 2020)

Traminator said:



			That would make sense, what is the correct procedure?
		
Click to expand...

*Appendix C* Example 2

Calculate individual *playing handicaps *(ie 90% of CH) *first.* 
Lowest capper set to 0. Reduce others by the difference in PHs.


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## larmen (Nov 4, 2020)

Silly question, why is there a playing handicap? Shouldn’t a course handicap be enough? Or shouldn’t the factor for the playing handicap be rolled up into the course handicap?


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## Old Skier (Nov 4, 2020)

rulefan said:



*Appendix C* Example 2

Calculate individual *playing handicaps *(ie 90% of CH) *first.*
Lowest capper set to 0. Reduce others by the difference in PHs.
		
Click to expand...

Talk about making a simple system complicated


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## Old Skier (Nov 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When did that become the correct procedure?

It’s just the same as before - each player takes 90% difference from the lowest player using course handicap ?
		
Click to expand...

Going by @rulefan post you and me and I suspect many others would have got this wrong.


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## rulefan (Nov 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			When did that become the correct procedure?

It’s just the same as before - each player takes 90% difference from the lowest player using course handicap ?
		
Click to expand...

How can it be the same as before? There was never a Playing Handicap before.


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## Mozza14 (Nov 4, 2020)

Humpy said:



			So the graph wouldn't include the latest score that changed my index from 7.6 to 8.2? That makes no sense.
		
Click to expand...

Finally someone on the forum who realises the table of scores and the Handicap Index does not match up. For any score and differential ,it shows the HI that you played with on that day. It would have been so much more logical to have calculated the HI on each line after the round. Anyone looking at the scores table sees a value at the top which isn't your current HI.

As you rightly say, the graphs then do not show the current HI or match it up against the score which produced it. Crazy !!

Looking at the friends facility it is also picking up a summary of the top line of the scores table which isn't the final index.

The penny will eventually drop.


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## rulefan (Nov 4, 2020)

Traminator said:



			So I'll take today's example of what we did under normal rules:

Handicaps 1, 7, 7 & 12, so 5, 5 and 10 shots were given.

Whenever WHS gets sorted we're supposed to take 90% of each handicap first, and take the shots from the lowest?

90% is 1, 6, 6 and 11, the differences are 5, 5 and 10.

When does it make a difference?
		
Click to expand...

When rounding is involved.


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## Old Skier (Nov 4, 2020)

rulefan said:



			How can it be the same as before? There was never a Playing Handicap before.
		
Click to expand...

Yes there was, it was called “ Your Handicap “


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## fenwayrich (Nov 4, 2020)

Traminator said:



			So I'll take today's example of what we did under normal rules:

Handicaps 1, 7, 7 & 12, so 5, 5 and 10 shots were given.

Whenever WHS gets sorted we're supposed to take 90% of each handicap first, and take the shots from the lowest?

90% is 1, 6, 6 and 11, the differences are 5, 5 and 10.

When does it make a difference?
		
Click to expand...

Handicaps 5, 9, 16, 20, shots were 4, 10 and 14

Revised playing handicaps at 90% are 5, 8, 14 and 18, so the shots are 3, 9 and 13.


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## 3offTheTee (Nov 4, 2020)

rulefan said:



*Appendix C* Example 2

Calculate individual *playing handicaps *(ie 90% of CH) *first.*
Lowest capper set to 0. Reduce others by the difference in PHs.
		
Click to expand...

OK I am now worried whether they were right and I wrong.

Course Handicaps were 13,16,17 and 21leaving 3,4, and 8 shots.

I thought as it was 4 ball Matchplay as opposed to singles the Playing handicap for ALL is reduced by 90% leave 12, 14, 15 and 19 with 2 3 and 7 shots received.

Rulefan please confirm otherwise I need to start reading WHS again


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 4, 2020)

rulefan said:



			How can it be the same as before? There was never a Playing Handicap before.
		
Click to expand...

Are you really going to be that pedantic  🙄

It was called “your handicap”


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## IanM (Nov 4, 2020)

The fact that a four ball each averaging 30 years experience ( mentioned above) don't know how to play 4bbb under whs , just demonstrates what a dogs breakfast this is.  Over engineered and poorly communicated.

But I guess if they gave up playing and spent the time studying the manual,  it would be ok!


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## IanM (Nov 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you really going to be that pedantic  🙄
		
Click to expand...

Eh...see Appendix F. Section 3.1. Subsection 7b


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## IanM (Nov 4, 2020)

Kaz said:



			To be honest, it's more a reflection on them. The information is there for anyone prepared to engage with it.
		
Click to expand...

I'm think the truth is  more in the middle.   I've been very flippant on these pages, but I've learned far more from this forum than the official material. 

People absorb information on very different ways.   I think they have catered for the detail bunnies, not average Joe.

I mentioned lack of stakeholder engagement in other post.  A golf official i know challenged me about this, then demonstrated he didn't understand who his stakeholders were.


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## rulefan (Nov 4, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Are you really going to be that pedantic  🙄

It was called “your handicap”
		
Click to expand...

But you only had one 'your handicap' now you may have two. One for handicapping calculations and one for competition results.
Plus the ones called 'Exact' and 'Index'

However, being pedantic in golf can often save you shots


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## Yogidog1 (Nov 4, 2020)

Hi guys,bad news about golf being lockdowned.Iam having issues with Howdidido I can login but when I put club in,it saying no one of this name is know at this clubis anyone having same issue ? England golf/club have all necessary info required so can't understand this problem.Should I just wait any let time take it's course while lockdown is on ?


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## rulefan (Nov 4, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Fancy turning up for your regular fourball having not studied Appendix C, Example 2 the night before.

Tut tut 😜
		
Click to expand...

When you get a new game in your Xmas stocking don't you read the rules? 
But I must admit my grandson always beat me at Snakes & Ladders. He hadn't read the bit about snakes.


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## IanM (Nov 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



			When you get a new game in your Xmas stocking don't you read the rules? 
But I must admit my grandson always beat me at Snakes & Ladders. He hadn't read the bit about snakes.
		
Click to expand...

This will be a shock to you, but a significant percentage of the population do not read instructions on anything.  Of course, any decent change management professional would have told the _rules nerds_ about Behavioural Norms, but of course, I don't think they hired any!    Sure you need to write instructions, but they need to be pitch at the broadest band of recipients. 

Edit: Had a chat with our Society Sec this morning.  Will continue to administer own handicaps next season and not adopt any changes.  Although a note is going out asking members to "do the decent thing" if they are playing home course off fewer shots than they get on Soc Days!  What are other Societies doing???


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## petema99 (Nov 5, 2020)

Yogidog1 said:



			Hi guys,bad news about golf being lockdowned.Iam having issues with Howdidido I can login but when I put club in,it saying no one of this name is know at this clubis anyone having same issue ? England golf/club have all necessary info required so can't understand this problem.Should I just wait any let time take it's course while lockdown is on ?
		
Click to expand...

Have you got a handicap? At my club, you only get access to HowdidIdo once you have one


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## Old Skier (Nov 5, 2020)

petema99 said:



			Have you got a handicap? At my club, you only get access to HowdidIdo once you have one
		
Click to expand...

Also your club admin need to have taken appropriate action . Check other members have access and your email address on system is the same as the one your using.


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## jim8flog (Nov 5, 2020)

IanM said:



			This will be a shock to you, but a significant percentage of the population do not read instructions on anything.
		
Click to expand...

  I would agree with that.

You would be amazed at the number of players who come up to me with a Rules query and the first thing I say is that it is on the back of the card in the Local Rules.


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## Fish (Nov 5, 2020)

I’m not sure if this ‘percentage’ topic is the same, but I’ve now just noticed on my IG app that I’ve got a ‘course’ and ‘playing’ handicap, with the latter having (95%) in brackets and showing me a shot less than when doing my calculation with my index & slope at my club?

Is this solely for Matchplay?

If not, why do I have a course & a different playing handicap?

I fully understand my index and the calculations to do against slopes to get to my playing handicap, but I don’t understand this double meaning and the display of 95%?


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## balaclava (Nov 5, 2020)

I know this question must have been asked 100 times and I am sure the answer is in the 89 pages of this thread but I can't find it . . . .
I have three numbers; a HC index (HCI), a course rating (CR) and a slope rating (SR) 
Q1.  Where does the HC Index number come from - how was that calculated?
Q2.  What is the formula used to calculate the Course HC e.g.  HCI x CR / SR?
Q3.  I presume that the Playing HC is 95% of the Course HC?


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## Imurg (Nov 5, 2020)

Fish said:



			I’m not sure if this ‘percentage’ topic is the same, but I’ve now just noticed on my IG app that I’ve got a ‘course’ and ‘playing’ handicap, with the latter having (95%) in brackets and showing me a shot less than when doing my calculation with my index & slope at my club?

Is this solely for Matchplay?

If not, why do I have a course & a different playing handicap?

I fully understand my index and the calculations to do against slopes to get to my playing handicap, but I don’t understand this double meaning and the display of 95%?
		
Click to expand...

Somewhere there's a table showing allowances from your course handicap 
Singles strokeplay, so medal and stableford are 95% of your course handicap.


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## Fish (Nov 5, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Somewhere there's a table showing allowances from your course handicap
Singles strokeplay, so medal and stableford are 95% of your course handicap.
		
Click to expand...

So when I was working out my playing handicap using the formula of my index against my slope (13.5 x 139 divided by 113= 17) that isn’t the case when in even a singles Comp, I lose 95% which is another shot? 

What’s the point of having a course handicap if I’ve always got to take 95% off it?


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## Imurg (Nov 5, 2020)

Fish said:



			So when I was working out my playing handicap using the formula of my index against my slope (13.5 x 139 divided by 113= 17) that isn’t the case when in even a singles Comp, I lose 95% which is another shot?

What’s the point of having a course handicap if I’ve always got to take 95% off it?
		
Click to expand...

Because........


No, can't answer that one.


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## yandabrown (Nov 5, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Because........


No, can't answer that one.
		
Click to expand...

Because in singles matchplay it is 100%


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## jim8flog (Nov 5, 2020)

Fish said:



			So when I was working out my playing handicap using the formula of my index against my slope (13.5 x 139 divided by 113= 17) that isn’t the case when in even a singles Comp, I lose 95% which is another shot?

What’s the point of having a course handicap if I’ve always got to take 95% off it?
		
Click to expand...

You only take 95% off in singles medal/stableford comps

There are a whole load of other percentage changes n other comps and there has has always been

Singles match play course and playing handicap are the same.


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## Fish (Nov 5, 2020)

Hmm, so are you saying if I play a social roll up round I’m off 17 as per the formula but in a qualifying medal/stableford Comp I’m off 16?


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## jim8flog (Nov 5, 2020)

Fish said:



			Hmm, so are you saying if I play a social roll up round I’m off 17 as per the formula but in a qualifying medal/stableford Comp I’m off 16?
		
Click to expand...

The main point about the 95% is to maintain the gap between a high and lowish handicap player.

The slope rating system 'favours' a high handicap

E.g say 125 slope

A player with a H.I. of 9 gets a course and playing handicap of 10
A player with H.I. of 29 gets a course handicap of 32 the 95% brings him back to 30

In that way the the difference of 20 shots between them is maintained.

What you do amongst your mates is up to you to agree.


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## petema99 (Nov 5, 2020)

Fish said:



			Hmm, so are you saying if I play a social roll up round I’m off 17 as per the formula but in a qualifying medal/stableford Comp I’m off 16?
		
Click to expand...

Sounds correct - also, for the comp for handicapping purposes, they will use the 17 - so on the hole where you lose a shot, if you get 0 stableford points by shooting a double, it would still count towards your handicap (rather than being deemed to be net double bogey)...


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## rosecott (Nov 5, 2020)

Fish said:



			Hmm, so are you saying if I play a social roll up round I’m off 17 as per the formula but in a qualifying medal/stableford Comp I’m off 16?
		
Click to expand...

You've not really been paying attention, Robin, have you?


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## Tashyboy (Nov 5, 2020)

Really struggling to get me head around this.

last competitive round of the year am sat at 15.2 on the WHS site which equates to 18 at my course and am playing off 16.7 Under stableford. So I shoot 34 points which is in the BZ. A day or so later my WHS Hcap is updated. It goes up to 16.00 🤔. Which equates to 19 at my course rounded down to 18 after 95%. 😳 How does a BZ round make your hcap go up


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## Imurg (Nov 5, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			Really struggling to get me head around this.

last competitive round of the year am sat at 15.2 on the WHS site which equates to 18 at my course and am playing off 16.7 Under stableford. So I shoot 34 points which is in the BZ. A day or so later my WHS Hcap is updated. It goes up to 16.00 🤔. Which equates to 19 at my course rounded down to 18 after 95%. 😳 How does a BZ round make your hcap go up
		
Click to expand...

There is no buffer zone anymore.?.
Your 34 replaced the 20th score on your list.
If that was a good one, say 38 points, then your best 8 average is going to go up.


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## Bigfoot (Nov 5, 2020)

IanM said:



			This will be a shock to you, but a significant percentage of the population do not read instructions on anything.  Of course, any decent change management professional would have told the _rules nerds_ about Behavioural Norms, but of course, I don't think they hired any!    Sure you need to write instructions, but they need to be pitch at the broadest band of recipients.

Edit: Had a chat with our Society Sec this morning.  Will continue to administer own handicaps next season and not adopt any changes.  Although a note is going out asking members to "do the decent thing" if they are playing home course off fewer shots than they get on Soc Days!  What are other Societies doing???
		
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Our society has decided to stick to our method for the moment - which is based on the old Congu system but our CSS comes from the player who was 5th ( depending on the amount taking part). We have club members and those that are not. Club members could use their index as the basis  for the day but the nomads would then be based on something else so we decided to keep a level playing field.


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## jim8flog (Nov 5, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I don't find that people always explain things clearly enough so here's my understanding:

Our HI is our handicap if we were playing on a Slope 113 course, considered to be "the average".

Our Course Handicap is the adjustment to represent the course and tees we are playing that day, if the Slope is higher than 113 our CH will be higher.

From our CH, we get today's Playing Handicap based on the format of play.

WHY?
Who knows 🤷‍♂️
		
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I thought a slope of 113 is considered to be the point where a course has the same difficulty for a scratch and a bogey player hence neither player receives additional shot to their HI.

I thought the average slope is 125.


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## balaclava (Nov 5, 2020)

I have three numbers; a HC index (HCI), a course rating (CR) and a slope rating (SR)

Q1. Where does the HC Index number come from - how was that calculated?
Q2. What is the formula used to calculate the Course HC e.g. HCI x CR / SR?
Q3. I presume that the Playing HC is 95% of the Course HC?


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## Imurg (Nov 5, 2020)

balaclava said:



			I have three numbers; a HC index (HCI), a course rating (CR) and a slope rating (SR)

Q1. Where does the HC Index number come from - how was that calculated?
Q2. What is the formula used to calculate the Course HC e.g. HCI x CR / SR?
Q3. I presume that the Playing HC is 95% of the Course HC?
		
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1.
Index is calculated from the average of the best 8 differentials from your last 20 rounds dating back 2 years (I believe)
2.
Course handicap is Index x Slope ÷ 113 and rounded if youre in England.  The slope number is taken from whichever tee you are using.
3.
Playing handicap will depend on format being played. Tables have been published showing the %age per format 
Singles strokeplay (Medal/Stableford) uses 95%
Simples


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## HampshireHog (Nov 5, 2020)

Is it possible to have a permanent “sticky” that covers how the initial Index was calculated, how to calculate course handicap and playing handicap, and how the index is affected as you play?

It just seems that these questions are repeated continuously.


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## rulefan (Nov 5, 2020)

balaclava said:



			I have three numbers; a HC index (HCI), a course rating (CR) and a slope rating (SR)

Q1. Where does the HC Index number come from - how was that calculated?
Q2. What is the formula used to calculate the Course HC e.g. HCI x CR / SR?
Q3. I presume that the Playing HC is 95% of the Course HC?
		
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1) By looking at your last 20 Score Differentials. (ie the difference between your score and the Course Rating (CSS in old money) and multiplying by (113/ Slope). Then taking the average of the best 8.

2) Course Handicap = Index x (Slope/113)

3) Yes, in individual stroke play. But may be different according to the format of play (100% match play) 

PS. See how the slope is accounted for and then reversed in 2) & 1)


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## rulefan (Nov 5, 2020)

HampshireHog said:



			Is it possible to have a permanent “sticky” that covers how the initial Index was calculated, how to calculate course handicap and playing handicap, and how the index is affected as you play?

It just seems that these questions are repeated continuously.
		
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Good idea but it's already on the EG website


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## ScienceBoy (Nov 5, 2020)

Just had my first “good round but my handicap went up” moments as a 29 pushed a 27 out of my last 20 rounds.


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## HampshireHog (Nov 5, 2020)

Clearly no one goes there though 😉


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## jim8flog (Nov 5, 2020)

balaclava said:



			I have three numbers; a HC index (HCI), a course rating (CR) and a slope rating (SR)

Q1. Where does the HC Index number come from - how was that calculated?
Q2. What is the formula used to calculate the Course HC e.g. HCI x CR / SR?
Q3. I presume that the Playing HC is 95% of the Course HC?
		
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Q1

It is the best 8 from 20 only if you have 20 scores since January 2018 on you record.

If you have less then that it is an increasing formula which starts at 3 scores which is the best score minus 2 strokes as each score is added the formula changes until you reach 20 e.g only 19 and it is the best 7


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## Foxholer (Nov 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



			1) By looking at your last 20 Score Differentials. (ie the difference between your score and the Course Rating (*CSS in old money*) and multiplying by (113/ Slope). Then taking the average of the best 8.
...
		
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They used CSS cf SSS? Probably reasonable, as equates to Conditions Adjustment though that will no longer apply for non-comp rounds; just checking


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## jim8flog (Nov 5, 2020)

HampshireHog said:



			Clearly no one goes there though 😉
		
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 I would hope everybody is going there now as it is the best source for your Handicap Index.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 5, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			I thought a slope of 113 is considered to be the point where a course has the same difficulty for a scratch and a bogey player hence neither player receives additional shot to their HI.

I thought the average slope is 125.
		
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More I thinking that for a course with a SR of 113 a higher handicap player has no more or no less difficulty playing the course to his ability as reflected by his HI than a scratch player - and so the higher player does not require any additional shots to be able to complete against the scratch guy on a level (handicap) footing.


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## 3offTheTee (Nov 5, 2020)

If playing a scramble, 4 players 25,20,15 10 are the resultant 4 figures rounded OR are they exact please?


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## balaclava (Nov 5, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Course handicap is Index x Slope ÷ 113 and rounded if you're in England.  The slope number is taken from whichever tee you are using.


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If that is correct (and I am sure you are correct) the course rating is not a factor in the equation (so why have it) and where does the number `113 come from?


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## IanMcC (Nov 5, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			If playing a scramble, 4 players 25,20,15 10 are the resultant 4 figures rounded OR are they exact please?
		
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Exact to one decimal place.


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## Ethan (Nov 5, 2020)

balaclava said:



			If that is correct (and I am sure you are correct) the course rating is not a factor in the equation (so why have it) and where does the number `113 come from?
		
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Slope is an adjustment factor for the proportional degree of difficulty for the bogey player compared to the scratch player. 113 is the zero rated point where a course is not proportionately more difficult for the bogey player cf the scratch. 

The course handicap is most similar to the current CONGU, because your current CONGU has the course difficulty baked in. The Handicap Index is essentially the handicap with the course factor stripped out, so should be comparable between players at different courses. Then when you go to any course for a game, including your own, you put the course factor back in again.


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## IanMcC (Nov 5, 2020)

balaclava said:



			If that is correct (and I am sure you are correct) the course rating is not a factor in the equation (so why have it) and where does the number `113 come from?
		
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Im not trying to be cheeky, but you really should read the England Golf toolkit, or at least watch the HDID videos on youtube, or something.


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## Tashyboy (Nov 5, 2020)

Imurg said:



			There is no buffer zone anymore.?.
Your 34 replaced the 20th score on your list.
If that was a good one, say 38 points, then your best 8 average is going to go up.
		
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cheers me man.
A pal of mine is gonna be gutted. His 20th score was a 64 if that is replaced he ain’t gonna be happy.


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## Ethan (Nov 5, 2020)

Tashyboy said:



			cheers me man.
A pal of mine is gonna be gutted. His 20th score was a 64 if that is replaced he ain’t gonna be happy.
		
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And that is exactly why handicaps move more quickly under WHS. You play to your handicap and it still goes up because of losing that score from your 8/20.


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## jim8flog (Nov 5, 2020)

balaclava said:



			If that is correct (and I am sure you are correct) the course rating is not a factor in the equation (so why have it) and where does the number `113 come from?
		
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Not following you totally when you say CR is not a factor. CR is what you are trying to get to.

113 is the base line number that the WHS organisers have decided on.

It is figure which can be greater or lesser for slope.  If you started with 0 it would be hard to produce a number less than it as you would have a negative handicap if you played on a which is less difficult. There is no way of deciding what the easiest course in the world is as someone might build an easier one.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 5, 2020)

So looking into it, not sure if it’s an error just the system neglects it, but it doesn’t account for the css of the scores it has used in generating the first HI. I suppose going forward it will not matter?


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## Tashyboy (Nov 5, 2020)

Ethan said:



			And that is exactly why handicaps move more quickly under WHS. You play to your handicap and it still goes up because of losing that score from your 8/20.
		
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gonna ring tricky Trev, he is gonna be gutted.


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## jim8flog (Nov 5, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			So looking into it, not sure if it’s an error just the system neglects it, but it doesn’t account for the css of the scores it has used in generating the first HI. I suppose going forward it will not matter?
		
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That was adjusted and the 'CSS' figures have now been replaced with a PCC factor.


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## backwoodsman (Nov 5, 2020)

Thought I'd just say that as far as my own H/C is concerned, I'm content with how things have happened. 

When I first registered & looked at the EG site (about a week ago) all but the  2 or 3 latest of my scores were there, and my HI looked about right (0.7  higher than my old exact H/C). By Monday this week all scores were in there and my HI  had changed slightly (one of my best 8 had fallen out of the last 20 rounds - replaced by something less good). Wedndsday,  checked my HI , then looked at the board on the clubhouse wall and got my Course Handicap and played in the monthly Stableford. Finished the round and bashed the score into the clubhouse terminal. Checked this morning, and the score is there and my HI has  changed slightly - another of my best 8 has dropped out of the last 20). 
WHS is working for me. Dont see what all the fuss is about ?


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## jim8flog (Nov 5, 2020)

Frustratingly I was going to put it to the test yesterday with a Supplementary Score but we had 3 temporary greens.


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## balaclava (Nov 5, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Im not trying to be cheeky, but you really should read the England Golf toolkit, or at least watch the HDID videos on youtube, or something.
		
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I have done both and I could not find answers, I found the Video (the one which ends with just enjoy your golf)  particularly unhelpful


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## harpo_72 (Nov 5, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			That was adjusted and the 'CSS' figures have now been replaced with a PCC factor.
		
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I just don’t see it in the calculations they just seem to be using the par for the course, which differed to the css and that is shown in the congu handicap cut at the time.


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## rulefan (Nov 5, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			They used CSS cf SSS? Probably reasonable, as equates to Conditions Adjustment though that will no longer apply for non-comp rounds; just checking
		
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Yes. The difference between SSS and CSS is shown as a PCC adjustment. They missed that on the first run.


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## jim8flog (Nov 5, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			I just don’t see it in the calculations they just seem to be using the par for the course, which differed to the css and that is shown in the congu handicap cut at the time.
		
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Note in the photo PCC is the single digit number


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## harpo_72 (Nov 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Yes. The difference between SSS and CSS is shown as a PCC adjustment. They missed that on the first run.
		
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This is what I would have expected, but they have not and also doubt whether they applied the 2 different course ratings.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 5, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Note in the photo PCC is the single digit number

View attachment 33347

Click to expand...

Looked at mine and I don’t have that column it’s date, course ( no ref to tee), adjusted gross, what I think might be the whs index


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## rulefan (Nov 5, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			This is what I would have expected, but they have not and also doubt whether they applied the 2 different course ratings.
		
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They have had difficulties in identifying courses. Seemingly still working on it.


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## IanM (Nov 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Rounded to the integer
		
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...aka the "whole number!"    Up or down...


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## rulefan (Nov 5, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Exact to one decimal place.
		
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Where did you find this?


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## IanMcC (Nov 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Where did you find this?
		
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I didnt find it anywhere. I used my common sense. I defy anyone to admit they have played in a scramble where the first decimal place is not used. If you take 10% of combined under CONGU, and it comes to, say 4.4, you dont get 4 shots, you get 4.4.
If we round everything off after taking 25/20/15/10, we will have a lot of card playoffs. Most well run scrambles have about 6 or 7 teams within a shot or 2 of winning.
Where did you see it would be rounded, rulefan? There is nothing in Appendix C of RoH to suggest either method, but surely common sense should prevail.


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## 3offTheTee (Nov 5, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			I didnt find it anywhere. I used my common sense. I defy anyone to admit they have played in a scramble where the first decimal place is not used. If you take 10% of combined under CONGU, and it comes to, say 4.4, you dont get 4 shots, you get 4.4.
If we round everything off after taking 25/20/15/10, we will have a lot of card playoffs. Most well run scrambles have about 6 or 7 teams within a shot or 2 of winning.
Where did you see it would be rounded, rulefan? There is nothing in Appendix C of RoH to suggest either method, but surely common sense should prevail.
		
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As I asked the original question let me be more specific:

4 guys playing in a Texas scramble with Course Handicaps of 5, 11, 16, and 20. How many shots will they receive please?


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## rulefan (Nov 5, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			I didnt find it anywhere. I used my common sense. I defy anyone to admit they have played in a scramble where the first decimal place is not used. If you take 10% of combined under CONGU, and it comes to, say 4.4, you dont get 4 shots, you get 4.4.
If we round everything off after taking 25/20/15/10, we will have a lot of card playoffs. Most well run scrambles have about 6 or 7 teams within a shot or 2 of winning.
Where did you see it would be rounded, rulefan? There is nothing in Appendix C of RoH to suggest either method, but surely common sense should prevail.
		
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Playing Handicap, which is what they are, is always a whole number.
*6.2a *_The calculated Playing Handicap is rounded to the nearest whole number, with .5 rounded upwards_


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## rulefan (Nov 5, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			As I asked the original question let me be more specific:

4 guys playing in a Texas scramble with Course Handicaps of 5, 11, 16, and 20. How many shots will they receive please?
		
Click to expand...

7


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## IanMcC (Nov 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Playing Handicap, which is what they are, is always a whole number.
*6.2a *_The calculated Playing Handicap is rounded to the nearest whole number, with .5 rounded upwards_

Click to expand...

I appreciate that, but respectfully suggest that Rule 6.2a was written with normal modes of golf in mind, not Scrambles. Even Appendix C, the only place where scrambles are mentioned, states that the percentages are only recommended.
To answer 3offthe Tee's question, at Rhuddlan you would get 7.9, at rulefan's gaff you would get 7.


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## IanMcC (Nov 5, 2020)

25% of 5 is 1.25 = 1.3, or 1 at rulefans

20% of 11 is 2.2, or 2 at rulefans

15% of 16 is 2.4, or 2 at rulefans

10% of 20 is 2.0, or 2 at rulefans



So 7.9 against 7, surely?


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## rulefan (Nov 5, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			I appreciate that, but respectfully suggest that Rule 6.2a was written with normal modes of golf in mind, not Scrambles. Even Appendix C, the only place where scrambles are mentioned, states that the percentages are only recommended.
To answer 3offthe Tee's question, at Rhuddlan you would get 7.9, at rulefan's gaff you would get 7. 

Click to expand...

How do you justify second guessing the R&A/USGA? There is nothing in the text to suggest the meaning is not universal.

The %ages may be recommended but the rounding is stated as mandatory.
How would you play off 16 x 95% 15.2 in a medal?


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## IanMcC (Nov 5, 2020)

And, if I may add, the percentages were changed to stop low handicappers scooping everything in scrambles, so my method is better.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 5, 2020)

Scrambles surely have got to be done to 1 decimal place. To do other wise invites an increased likelihood of a tie. Our last scramble we had 4 teams within a nett score of 1.3 of each other at the top of the leaderbaord.


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## IanMcC (Nov 5, 2020)

rulefan said:



			How do you justify second guessing the R&A/USGA? There is nothing in the text to suggest the meaning is not universal.

The %ages may be recommended but the rounding is stated as mandatory.
How would you play off 16 x 95% 15.2 in a medal?
		
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You wouldn't use that in a medal, obviously. A medal is real golf. 6.2a applies wholeheartedly, as I stated earlier.
I dont really think the R&A or USGA give a stuff what people do in a scramble. They just gave suggested figures to push the average handicap total up a bit.


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## 3offTheTee (Nov 5, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			25% of 5 is 1.25 = 1.3, or 1 at rulefans

20% of 11 is 2.2, or 2 at rulefans

15% of 16 is 2.4, or 2 at rulefans

10% of 20 is 2.0, or 2 at rulefans



So 7.9 against 7, surely?
		
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Not going against anything you have said have reading Rulefan’s posts over many years, and knowing his knowledge from personal messages my team will be playing off 7 in the above example.

however I really appreciate tour input IanM


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## IanMcC (Nov 5, 2020)

3offTheTee said:



			Not going against anything you have said have reading Rulefan’s posts over many years, and knowing his knowledge from personal messages my team will be playing off 7 in the above example.

however I really appreciate tour input IanM
		
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Are you running the event? If not, surely you will follow the organisers advice. If so, good luck to you, and I hope you are good at countbacks!


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## IanM (Nov 5, 2020)

Our club uses Master Scoreboard.  I see all trace of handicapping has been removed.   But we'll still key our scores on it..  wonder it'll pick up the multiple handicap thingies we all have now to update net scores and HIs


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## rulefan (Nov 5, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			And, if I may add, the percentages were changed to stop low handicappers scooping everything in scrambles, so my method is better. 

Click to expand...

Not quite. The only one where the value is set to 'equalise' the chances of low and high cappers is the 95% in individual stroke play. It is only new in CONGU. Australia and North America had a equivalent prior to WHS

The %ages have not been changed for scrambles. There has never been any recommendation or suggestion previously for scramble handicaps by any golfing authority .


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## rulefan (Nov 5, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Scrambles surely have got to be done to 1 decimal place. To do other wise invites an increased likelihood of a tie. Our last scramble we had 4 teams within a nett score of 1.3 of each other at the top of the leaderbaord.
		
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So how do you resolve ties in a medal or stableford? Decimals are not used there.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			So how do you resolve ties in a medal or stableford? Decimals are not used there.
		
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Think the decimal was intro’d for the scrambles. It just makes it easier or you would be counting back for virtually all places. The likelihood in a standard format is lower but even so the count back from my experience of it being applied just stops when the score is worse... so being in the mix but having a bogey in the last 3 holes means your chances of winning have dropped significantly .. a scramble is just a rather large collection of gross and nett birdies so you would count back possibly 5 ,7 or even 9 holes.. which would be time consuming.

Anyway, I will leave this here as this system is immature and not found it’s feet yet, and needs to get itself sorted out. I am pretty sure it will eventually, but in all honestly speaking it wasn’t necessary and it’s just making someone very wealthy.


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## sweaty sock (Nov 6, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Think the decimal was intro’d for the scrambles. It just makes it easier or you would be counting back for virtually all places. The likelihood in a standard format is lower but even so the count back from my experience of it being applied just stops when the score is worse... so being in the mix but having a bogey in the last 3 holes means your chances of winning have dropped significantly .. a scramble is just a rather large collection of gross and nett birdies so you would count back possibly 5 ,7 or even 9 holes.. which would be time consuming.

Anyway, I will leave this here as this system is immature and not found it’s feet yet, and needs to get itself sorted out. I am pretty sure it will eventually, but in all honestly speaking it wasn’t necessary and it’s just making someone very wealthy.
		
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Has countback changed?  I thought it was back 9, back 6, back 3, last hole?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 6, 2020)

sweaty sock said:



			Has countback changed?  I thought it was back 9, back 6, back 3, last hole?
		
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Don’t think it has a set process, apart from go back till the scores differ


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## Ethan (Nov 6, 2020)

sweaty sock said:



			Has countback changed?  I thought it was back 9, back 6, back 3, last hole?
		
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Countback is simply meant to be a tie break that is clear and understandable, if not necessarily logical or fair. It is really a glorified coin toss, and if it doesn't resolve the tie, the next stage is an unglorified coin toss. Using decimals to break the tie would be much fairer and logical.


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## rulefan (Nov 6, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			Think the decimal was intro’d for the scrambles. 
........a scramble is just a rather large collection of gross and nett birdies so you would count back possibly 5 ,7 or even 9 holes.. which would be time consuming.
		
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Scramble scoring and handicaps have never had any formal recognition or universal convention. In fact I have experienced umpteen different variations. When run at my club it depends on who is organising. But almost always involves a countback as do all other social formats (eg best 3 of 4 etc).
Of course countbacks are sensibly done on the run as highest cards are returned.


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## rulefan (Nov 6, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Countback is simply meant to be a tie break that is clear and understandable, if not necessarily logical or fair. It is really a glorified coin toss, and if it doesn't resolve the tie, the next stage is an unglorified coin toss. Using decimals to break the tie would be much fairer and logical.
		
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Why don't we have decimals for medals then?
How often do you see a countback the resorts to a coin toss?


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## Ethan (Nov 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Why don't we have decimals for medals then?
How often do you see a countback the resorts to a coin toss?
		
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There is no logical reason not to use decimals for medals, but it really only matters for the top two or three positions. I have never seen a coin toss used, but it has happened, and is the accepted next step after countback. Some think that a coin toss is unfair while being happy with countback, not realising it is just a random method too. Using decimals is not random, just more precise than using the rounded up handicaps.


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## rulefan (Nov 6, 2020)

So are you proposing decimals for medals and 3 from 4s. All non matchplay in fact?


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## jim8flog (Nov 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			So how do you resolve ties in a medal or stableford? Decimals are not used there.
		
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When we have scrambles they are, very often, also a shotgun start so the normal method of deciding ties i.e. countback cannot be used.

Having done the cards for loads of them decimal points really is the best way to decide.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Why don't we have decimals for medals then?
		
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We do use decimals for medal countbacks though dont we?

If I've got 13 shots and countback is settled on the last three holes then my score for countback purposes over those three holes is my Gross Score over the 3 holes - (13*(3/18))

*5A Committee Procedures*
For net competitions where the stroke index allocation as set by the Committee is not used, such as individual stroke play, if the last nine, last six, last three holes scenario is used, one-half, one-third, one-sixth, etc. of the handicaps should be deducted from the score for those holes. *Handicap stroke fractions should be applied* in accordance with the rules or recommendations contained within the Handicap System operating in the local jurisdiction


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## rulefan (Nov 6, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



*Handicap stroke fractions should be applied* in accordance with the rules or recommendations contained within the Handicap System operating in the local jurisdiction

Click to expand...

I take the point but countbacks don't stop at 3. They can go to all 18.

But re the words in red. The only thing I see in WHS is that Playing Handicaps are rounded. Has EG said anything else?


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## sweaty sock (Nov 6, 2020)

I feel massively out of touch. 

So, if in strokeplay competition, two players are tied.  I would have applied their handicap as per the hole stroke indexes, and declared a winner on who has the best net back 9.  If still a tie then I would have repeated this for the last 6, then last 3, then last hole. 
From above it seems I should take a percentage of handicap, regardless of the hole stroke indexes?
Does this apply in stableford?  It's very possible that the stableford score on the back 9 will be very different to the back 9 with half the handicap applied - which wouldnt even be a stableford score?
How would the different slope values for back/front 9 effect it?

🤯


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## jim8flog (Nov 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I take the point but countbacks don't stop at 3. They can go to all 18.

But re the words in red. The only thing I see in WHS is that Playing Handicaps are rounded. Has EG said anything else?
		
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 Surely the WHS does not decide competitions winners in all situations .  I would have thought that where there is no specific procedure then a competition committee has the right to set the terms of the competition.


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## jim8flog (Nov 6, 2020)

sweaty sock said:



			I feel massively out of touch.

So, if in strokeplay competition, two players are tied.  I would have applied their handicap as per the hole stroke indexes, and declared a winner on who has the best net back 9.  If still a tie then I would have repeated this for the last 6, then last 3, then last hole.
From above it seems I should take a percentage of handicap, regardless of the hole stroke indexes?
Does this apply in stableford?  It's very possible that the stableford score on the back 9 will be very different to the back 9 with half the handicap applied - which wouldnt even be a stableford score?
How would the different slope values for back/front 9 effect it?

🤯
		
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 In a singles Medal (handicap stroke play) competition it is back 9 etc stroke indexes are irrelevant
 These days the computers are programmed to do all the work.


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## IanMcC (Nov 6, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			These days the computers are programmed to do all the work.
		
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Unless you are using ClubV1, and want to score a 2 tee competition fairly........then they are not programmed very well at all!


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## sweaty sock (Nov 6, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			In a singles Medal (handicap stroke play) competition it is back 9 etc stroke indexes are irrelevant
These days the computers are programmed to do all the work.
		
Click to expand...

 Stroke indexes are irrelevant?  So if a scratch player and 17 handicap player both tie for first place, no matter what holes are on the back nine, no matter the back nine slope, no matter the back nine rating, for the purposes of countback the 17 handicap player has their back nine reduced by get 8.5 strokes?  Seems wrong to me


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 6, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Unless you are using ClubV1, and want to score a 2 tee competition fairly........then they are not programmed very well at all! 

Click to expand...

Club v1, as I understand it, will assess the count back on the same nine,  not sure how you could say assessing it on different nines where the CR and/or BR could be are very different would be fairer.  On the wider point though I agree with Ethan  in a handicap competetion decimals would be fairer and less random in nature than count back.


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## sweaty sock (Nov 6, 2020)

I suppose I'm saying slope should be used in the countback.  As all courses now have a rating for each of their 9's, a course handicap would be formed using the slope for 18 holes.  If the slope varies between the front and back nine, then handicap allowance varies too?  So it should in countback situations...


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## jim8flog (Nov 6, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			.  On the wider point though I agree with Ethan  in a handicap competetion decimals would be fairer and less random in nature than count back.
		
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  What decimals
Course Handicap before rounding?
Handicap Index?


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## rulefan (Nov 6, 2020)

Anything that involves decimals or fractions should be removed from the world of real people and left to computers. If they aren't available, work in whole numbers. We count using our fingers, we don't cut bits off


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## jim8flog (Nov 6, 2020)

..


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## pauljames87 (Nov 6, 2020)

Our indexs are still wrong 

Just got this email from the club 

"It appears all scores from 1st July 2020 through to the end of September 2020 on the North East Course have been uploaded by England Golf on the Course and Slope Ratings of the harder 2xloops of the North Course"

Our index for the total course is whites 121 yellow 117 .

Slope for the whites on the north is 125 and yellow is 121

So does explain why everyone's handicap is a lot lower than it should be


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 6, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			What decimals
Course Handicap before rounding?
Handicap Index?
		
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it would have to be playing handicap.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Anything that involves decimals or fractions should be removed from the world of real people and left to computers. If they aren't available, work in whole numbers. We count using our fingers, we don't cut bits off 

Click to expand...

I agree, computers are now processing all club competitions,  so no reason why decimals can"t be used


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## jim8flog (Nov 6, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			it would have to be playing handicap.
		
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 Playing handicap!! 

Playing handicaps are always rounded and halved for back nine so you could have players with either 0.5 or .00. *May* work with just 2 players.


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## rulefan (Nov 6, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			it would have to be playing handicap.
		
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But by the rules PH is a whole number 

The sun is just breaking through. I'm off to do some gardening. I'll hopefully get 95.3% of my lawn cut.


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## doublebogey7 (Nov 6, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Playing handicap!!

Playing handicaps are always rounded and halved for back nine so you could have players with either 0.5 or .00. *May* work with just 2 players.
		
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With the technology we now have, all handicaps for competiton could be to as many decimal places as required to provide the fairest result.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 6, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Anything that involves decimals or fractions should be removed from the world of real people and left to computers. If they aren't available, work in whole numbers. We count using our fingers, we don't cut bits off 

Click to expand...

Surely you use your toes for fractions/decimals?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Nov 6, 2020)

Ethan said:



			Slope is an adjustment factor for the proportional degree of difficulty for the bogey player compared to the scratch player. 113 is the zero rated point where a course is not proportionately more difficult for the bogey player cf the scratch.

The course handicap is most similar to the current CONGU, because your current CONGU has the course difficulty baked in. The Handicap Index is essentially the handicap with the course factor stripped out, so should be comparable between players at different courses. Then when you go to any course for a game, including your own, you put the course factor back in again.
		
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...and as course slope rating increases, the *rate *at which players get 'additional' shots on top of their HI speeds up.  In other words - it takes a smaller increase in HI for a player to get an additional shot on high SR course than it does on a low SR course.  That is why it is referred to as 'slope' - it is a 'gradient' that reflects the *rate *at which additional shots are added as HI increases.


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## IanM (Nov 6, 2020)

So, my scores from previous years finally arrive on the portal.   Nice green blobs next to the 8 scores being counted... except, there's a 84 in the mix, but the 82 the following week not counted.  Same (home) course, same tees and it was a qualifying comp.

Any ideas?  Other than the data recognition feeds don't work properly!


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 6, 2020)

IanM said:



			So, my scores from previous years finally arrive on the portal.   Nice green blobs next to the 8 scores being counted... except, there's a 84 in the mix, but the 82 the following week not counted.  Same (home) course, same tees and it was a qualifying comp.

Any ideas?  Other than the data recognition feeds don't work properly! 

Click to expand...

Is there an entry in the PCA column?[/QUOTE]


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## IanMcC (Nov 6, 2020)

doublebogey7 said:



			Club v1, as I understand it, will assess the count back on the same nine,  not sure how you could say assessing it on different nines where the CR and/or BR could be are very different would be fairer.  On the wider point though I agree with Ethan  in a handicap competetion decimals would be fairer and less random in nature than count back.
		
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I wasnt meaning countback exactly. I was meaning this:
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/2-tee-stableford-comp-under-whs.107162/


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## Deleted member 16999 (Nov 6, 2020)

Wasn’t sure were to post this and didn’t want to start a new thread:

On our Club page (screenshot below) we have noticed today that the Handicap section of Master Scoreboard is currently unavailable. We queried this with Handicap Master and their response below.

“Thank you for your query about handicap Index values on Master Scoreboard.
Some golfing authorities are restricting the display of some information when it is on 3rd party websites.

This may change in the coming weeks. But the situation is still a bit unclear, so we have had to err on the side of caution to avoid possible license issues.”

Anyone else aware of this or have any idea which golfing authorities they are on about?


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## IanM (Nov 6, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Is there an entry in the PCA column?
		
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[/QUOTE]

There isnt that column on the version on my phone (Wales Golf) but that's a good thought.  Checking the ipad fuller version, it doesnt say PCA, but it says PCC (plus and minus) and score diff - which makes it clearer.  So that is correct... 

Given that I see that scores 18 and 19 are worse than the 20th.  So "roughly" I assume if I can beat the "score diff of 18,19, or 20, my HI will drop.  

....and we use Masterscoreboard.  All the handicap info has goen from ours too.  I suspect someone is copyrighting the HI data..  "it's ours and you can't use it!"


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## backwoodsman (Nov 6, 2020)

There isnt that column on the version on my phone (Wales Golf) but that's a good thought.  Checking the ipad fuller version, it doesnt say PCA, but it says PCC (plus and minus) and score diff - which makes it clearer.  So that is correct...

Given that I see that scores 18 and 19 are worse than the 20th.  So "roughly" I assume if I can beat the "score diff of 18,19, or 20, my HI will drop.

....and we use Masterscoreboard.  All the handicap info has goen from ours too.  I suspect someone is copyrighting the HI data..  "it's ours and you can't use it!" [/QUOTE]

Will change only if scores 18/19/20 are part of your best 8 scores


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## IanM (Nov 6, 2020)

Ooops, of course... thanks...

score 20 is in the best 8... 18 and 19 are not...  So, I need to go down the list to find which is the next best "score diff" (column name) to see what the impact of my next round it.  Interestingly the next best is very close, so a right shocker will only have a minor impact in my HI.. .although 17 is a really good one!  eek! 

Actually, with this whole thing... forget all the how's and why's.  Just go and play.


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## backwoodsman (Nov 6, 2020)

IanM said:



			Ooops, of course... thanks...

score 20 is in the best 8... 18 and 19 are not...  So, I need to go down the list to find which is the next best "score diff" (column name) to see what the impact of my next round it.  Interestingly the next best is very close, so a right shocker will only have a minor impact in my HI.. .although 17 is a really good one!  eek!

Actually, with this whole thing... forget all the how's and why's.  Just go and play.
		
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So, if score 20 is in the best 8, then if your next game is a better score than score 20, HI will go down,  if it's worse it will go up. By how much depends on whether the new score is in the best 8, or  or whether one of the other 19 takes 8th place

Ps: yes, just go & play (when you can)  - you can check the new numbers the day after.


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## IanM (Nov 6, 2020)

Yep..which is what I was say.... anyway, bit of a break as we don’t do qualifiers in the winter and our course reopens on Monday.

interestingly, just showed this to my wife who is a member at a different course.  Ladies committee have suspended use of whs as there are lots of errors in their info.. congu till further notice apparently.  Waiting to find out exactly what’s up and if blokes are impacted.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 6, 2020)

So how have they got to a 10 index? They must be counting the non-counting scores (if you can see the graph below)


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## Golfie (Nov 6, 2020)

Anyone tried the friend function on EG yet. Strangely my index which I actually think is right is different when looked at on friend’s EG page. Same platform two different indexes, something’s not right.


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## IainP (Nov 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Wasn’t sure were to post this and didn’t want to start a new thread:

On our Club page (screenshot below) we have noticed today that the Handicap section of Master Scoreboard is currently unavailable. We queried this with Handicap Master and their response below.

“Thank you for your query about handicap Index values on Master Scoreboard.
Some golfing authorities are restricting the display of some information when it is on 3rd party websites.

This may change in the coming weeks. But the situation is still a bit unclear, so we have had to err on the side of caution to avoid possible license issues.”

Anyone else aware of this or have any idea which golfing authorities they are on about?

View attachment 33408

Click to expand...

I was thinking the other day that to keep "one version of the truth" I could see EG or whoever not wanting static indexes being held elsewhere.
But systems like the above did allow you to check handicaps for whoever you were about to play in the knockout.
Might end up showing each other phone displays on the 1st tee!


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## Old Skier (Nov 6, 2020)

IainP said:



			I was thinking the other day that to keep "one version of the truth" I could see EG or whoever not wanting static indexes being held elsewhere.
But systems like the above did allow you to check handicaps for whoever you were about to play in the knockout.
Might end up showing each other phone displays on the 1st tee!
		
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Not sure I fully understand, nothing new, HC Index shown on HDID for V1 users


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## jim8flog (Nov 6, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Wasn’t sure were to post this and didn’t want to start a new thread:

On our Club page (screenshot below) we have noticed today that the Handicap section of Master Scoreboard is currently unavailable. We queried this with Handicap Master and their response below.

“Thank you for your query about handicap Index values on Master Scoreboard.
Some golfing authorities are restricting the display of some information when it is on 3rd party websites.

This may change in the coming weeks. But the situation is still a bit unclear, so we have had to err on the side of caution to avoid possible license issues.”

Anyone else aware of this or have any idea which golfing authorities they are on about?

View attachment 33408

Click to expand...



There is no detail on the IG platform as yet.

Just Handicap Index.


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## IainP (Nov 6, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Not sure I fully understand, nothing new, HC Index shown on HDID for V1 users
		
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So they may have made a different decision.  Do you know if it does a lookup to EG (or wherever central is), or does it keep a copy in V1 which it has to try to keep in synch?


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## woofers (Nov 6, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			So how have they got to a 10 index? They must be counting the non-counting scores (if you can see the graph below)
	View attachment 33412

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Well,  4 of the yellow dots (counting scores) are below the 10 line, (the last 2 quite significantly), and the other 4 counting aren’t miles over. I can see quite easily how the average of these 8 can be 10.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 6, 2020)

woofers said:



			Well,  4 of the yellow dots (counting scores) are below the 10 line, (the last 2 quite significantly), and the other 4 counting aren’t miles over. I can see quite easily how the average of these 8 can be 10.
		
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Yup its just an average calculation nothing special won’t change too much on the downward trend.. will see what happens when I put a few scores in.


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## jim8flog (Nov 7, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			So how have they got to a 10 index? They must be counting the non-counting scores (if you can see the graph below)
	View attachment 33412

Click to expand...

 from what I can see from that chart with the best 8 you have 4 scores about the same over 10 with roughly the same difference  as the 4 scores under 10 seems like a reasonable average (without knowing the exact figures).


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## harpo_72 (Nov 7, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			from what I can see from that chart with the best 8 you have 4 scores about the same over 10 with roughly the same difference  as the 4 scores under 10 seems like a reasonable average (without knowing the exact figures).
		
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Course difference is not captured 2 low ones are from the distance tee which moves the course index up 2 points, but they should sort that out.
The only thing I would say is the last 3 scores are not sowing much influence on the green HI line ..


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## Robster59 (Nov 7, 2020)

Our club has just released our new scorecards updated for the WHS



__ https://www.facebook.com/149281171777099/posts/3605715882800260


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## jim8flog (Nov 7, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			Our club has just released our new scorecards updated for the WHS



__ https://www.facebook.com/149281171777099/posts/3605715882800260



Click to expand...

Immediate observations

Where does Player Cs score go 

and you never play 4 ball golf there.


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## jim8flog (Nov 7, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			The only thing I would say is the last 3 scores are not sowing much influence on the green HI line ..
		
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Yep that is about right it's how averaging works.


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## Green Man (Nov 7, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Immediate observations

Where does Player Cs score go 

and you never play 4 ball golf there.
		
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Obviously it’s more important to have the holes name than a column for a 4th player.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 7, 2020)

Robster59 said:



			Our club has just released our new scorecards updated for the WHS



__ https://www.facebook.com/149281171777099/posts/3605715882800260



Click to expand...

So is there an advantage to playing off the reds .. nail a score .. and get a benefit?


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## harpo_72 (Nov 7, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Yep that is about right it's how averaging works.
		
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No they barely change which indicates there is an issue with the system, I will benefit because I get more shots can’t see it being good though


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## jim8flog (Nov 7, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			No they barely change which indicates there is an issue with the system, I will benefit because I get more shots can’t see it being good though
		
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 do a few test calculations and you will most changes are small particularly if you are shooting within one or 2 shots of H.I.

I am going a bit the other way round (worse not better)

This my chart and you see from that it takes a significant number of poor scores to change my H.I by m ore than a shot.

It is better than the UHS as under that system the change would have taken about 3 years


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## Mozza14 (Nov 7, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			So how have they got to a 10 index? They must be counting the non-counting scores (if you can see the graph below)
	View attachment 33412

Click to expand...

  They haven't plotted your current HI (10.0) ? The graph is inherently wrong with the HI lagging behind the differential by one place across the graph.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 7, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			They haven't plotted your current HI (10.0) ? The graph is inherently wrong with the HI lagging behind the differential by one place across the graph.
		
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I think the green is supposed to be it... but it doesn’t look correct, unless they have a fudge factor 


jim8flog said:



			do a few test calculations and you will most changes are small particularly if you are shooting within one or 2 shots of H.I.

I am going a bit the other way round (worse not better)

This my chart and you see from that it takes a significant number of poor scores to change my H.I by m ore than a shot.

It is better than the UHS as under that system the change would have taken about 3 years

View attachment 33432

Click to expand...

yeah yours should show a more upward trend if the system is tracking each event, visually I have you at 10.5-11, your high scores cause little or no fluctuations


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## Mozza14 (Nov 7, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			I think the green is supposed to be it... but it doesn’t look correct, unless they have a fudge factor
		
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No fudge factor, it doesn't display the final HI for anyone. It's rubbish.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 7, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			No fudge factor, it doesn't display the final HI for anyone. It's rubbish.
		
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Yes that’s probably a fair assessment


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## Foxholer (Nov 7, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			They haven't plotted your current HI (10.0) ? The graph is inherently wrong with the HI lagging behind the differential by one place across the graph.
		
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As that graph does not show 'the last 20' at the point of the first currently counting score (the leftmost yellow one', your statement above is invalid! It looks (cursorily) fine for the current position - with 5 out of the last 7 scores counting and for the 2 or 3 previous ones - if working backwards from the current pos. Moving back 1 score would bring the first (currently) out-of-range (blue) score into the calc; moving back 1 or 2 further would bring 2 of the (currently) non-counting (red), but not excessively high scores into the calc, as they both appear to be lower than the earlier blue ones.


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## Mozza14 (Nov 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			As that graph does not show 'the last 20' at the point of the first currently counting score (the leftmost yellow one', your statement above is invalid! It looks (cursorily) fine for the current position - with 5 out of the last 7 scores counting and for the 2 or 3 previous ones - if working backwards from the current pos.-
		
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Check your own last 20 graph. Is the current HI the same plotted end point on the graph? 

My graph shows a HI of 5.4 . My current HI is 6.2.


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## Foxholer (Nov 7, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			Check your own last 20 graph. Is the current HI the same plotted end point on the graph?
...
		
Click to expand...

I don't currently have one available, so no can do!


Mozza14 said:



			...
My graph shows a HI of 5.4 . My current HI is 6.2.
		
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Not entirely sure how that would happen. Do the scores used match? Is the graph 1 score out-of-date (missing your latest one)?


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## woofers (Nov 7, 2020)

The green line appears to be the HI as at the beginning of the round, rather than the HI following completion of the round. So, yes, it looks as thought the dots should be moved one to the left, which would allow the calculated index from the final round to be shown.


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## Mozza14 (Nov 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I don't currently have one available, so no can do!

Not entirely sure how that would happen. Do the scores used match? Is the graph 1 score out-of-date (missing your latest one)?
		
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The graph works of the table of 'My Scores'. The current HI is not shown in that table. The table shows the last score and differential but lists the HI played with rather than the resulting Index. The resulting final Handicap Index is shown in Overview only. 

It is a bizarre way to display the data either tabulated or graphical.

The most important plot on the graph should be the HI you end up with and it isn't there and every plotted point is one place out so the lines don't move in unison correctly.


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## Robster59 (Nov 7, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Immediate observations

Where does Player Cs score go

and you never play 4 ball golf there.
		
Click to expand...

I want involved in the design but I'd imagine you put that in the +/- column. 
Previously we had the hole names on the course plan.


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## Mozza14 (Nov 7, 2020)

woofers said:



			The green line appears to be the HI as at the beginning of the round, rather than the HI following completion of the round. So, yes, it looks as thought the dots should be moved one to the left, which would allow the calculated index from the final round to be shown.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly. I pointed this out in the thread I started here but it gained no traction and I was told it would be corrected by more data being uploaded.!!

https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/wghs-bugs-and-design-issues.107031/


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## Foxholer (Nov 7, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			The graph works of the table of 'My Scores'. The current HI is not shown in that table. The table shows the last score and differential but lists the HI played with rather than the resulting Index. The resulting final Handicap Index is shown in Overview only.

It is a bizarre way to display the data either tabulated or graphical.

The most important plot on the graph should be the HI you end up with and it isn't there and every plotted point is one place out so the lines don't move in unison correctly.
		
Click to expand...

That's what I suspected - and why I asked about the most recent one.
Indeed, a slightly bizarre/not particularly useful graph!


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## woofers (Nov 7, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Immediate observations

Where does Player Cs score go

and you never play 4 ball golf there.
		
Click to expand...

In the column labelled ‘Markers score  / C’ ?


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## upsidedown (Nov 7, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			The graph works of the table of 'My Scores'. The current HI is not shown in that table. The table shows the last score and differential but lists the HI played with rather than the resulting Index. *The resulting final Handicap Index is shown in Overview only.*

It is a bizarre way to display the data either tabulated or graphical.

The most important plot on the graph should be the HI you end up with and it isn't there and every plotted point is one place out so the lines don't move in unison correctly.
		
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That's how Dot golf have always done it to best of my knowledge


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## Mozza14 (Nov 7, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			That's what I suspected - and why I asked about the most recent one.
Indeed, a slightly bizarre/not particularly useful graph!
		
Click to expand...

Cheers. The table of scores is equally misleading . It would be far more informative to have the resultant Index shown rather than the previous one.


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## Mozza14 (Nov 7, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			That's how Dot golf have always done it to best of my knowledge
		
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Possibly, but does that mean it is useful and informative? Perhaps it has been wrong all along. The 50 and 100 score graphs are even more misaligned.


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## upsidedown (Nov 7, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			Possibly, but does that mean it is useful and informative? Perhaps it has been wrong all along. The 50 and 100 score graphs are even more misaligned.
		
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When we moved to NZ it did seem strange but we soon got used to it, even in 2007 there were so more advanced than EG are today . We would turn up to play and input out membership number  into the terminal and your card was printed with your playing handicap on it an holes where you got shot s marked


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## Mozza14 (Nov 7, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			When we moved to NZ it did seem strange but we soon got used to it, even in 2007 there were so more advanced than EG are today . We would turn up to play and input out membership number  into the terminal and your card was printed with your playing handicap on it an holes where you got shot s marked
		
Click to expand...

Yes that would be a smart facility. On the graphs and table of Scores and Handicap Indexes, I am not inclined to get used to something which is not informative and basically incorrect.


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## jim8flog (Nov 7, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			I think the green is supposed to be it... but it doesn’t look correct, unless they have a fudge factor

yeah yours should show a more upward trend if the system is tracking each event, visually I have you at 10.5-11, your high scores cause little or no fluctuations
		
Click to expand...

 I am actually 9.8 which agrees with my own calculations except for one score because it shown as the wrong course.


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## jim8flog (Nov 7, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			No fudge factor, it doesn't display the final HI for anyone. It's rubbish.
		
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As my above post #1911 my graphs shows 9.8 which is my current handicap index.


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## Mozza14 (Nov 7, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			As my above post #1911 my graphs shows 9.8 which is my current handicap index.
		
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It may well be the same value if you had a non counting last score. The last point on your graph is taken from the table of scores. That point is the HI played with for that round not the result.

I tried to explain this to you in the thread here but you said the additional upload would resolve the issue, which of course it didn't. https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/threads/wghs-bugs-and-design-issues.107031/

Look at the second oldest score in your graph. A very high differential could not possibly have produced the drop in your Index that is shown. That drop was caused by the previous score in your table.


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## balaclava (Nov 7, 2020)

The handicap index for 90% of the members of my club is higher than their previous Congu HC (less than 10% are lower).  That must be an indication of something - what?

(The slope rating at my club is 127)


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## balaclava (Nov 7, 2020)

The Course rating is not used in the calculation of handicaps - why?  If it's not used in the calculation oh HC's what's it for?


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## woofers (Nov 7, 2020)

balaclava said:



			The Course rating is not used in the calculation of handicaps - why?  If it's not used in the calculation oh HC's what's it for?
		
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Errr, the Course Rating is used in calculating the course Slope Rating. 
It is also used in the calculation of the the score differential, which is fundamental in calculating the handicap index.
Have you researched anything on the England Golf website about WHS, there’s a lot of information to be found there.


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## jim8flog (Nov 7, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			It may well be the same value if you had a non counting last score. The last point on your graph is taken from the table of scores. That point is the HI played with for that round not the result.

.
		
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 It would be very difficult for it to be the HI played for that round as it was played in October.

As said I have been tracking my HI all year since we came out of the first lockdown.

There are faults in my WHS which I know about because they have used the wrong course and slope caused by the rating team calling the course by another name but in the main it is so close I am not going to worry about it. One wrong score here one wrong score there by a small margin is not going to make a huge difference in my HI. 

I probably play around 25-30 comps a years in normal circumstances so any problems now will soon be ironed out. E.G one of the wrong scores falls out of the 20 next time I submit a score.


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## jim8flog (Nov 7, 2020)

balaclava said:



			The Course rating is not used in the calculation of handicaps - why?  If it's not used in the calculation oh HC's what's it for?
		
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The course rating *is* used in the calculation of the Handicap Index and any adjustment of it.

Your score for any round is compared against the course rating (as adjusted by the PCC) if the differential forms one of the 8 lowest it is then used in the best of 8 calculation.


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## jim8flog (Nov 7, 2020)

balaclava said:



			The handicap index for 90% of the members of my club is higher than their previous Congu HC (less than 10% are lower).  That must be an indication of something - what?

(The slope rating at my club is 127)
		
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Probably that a lot of them do not put in enough cards to have a 'correct' handicap, a lot of players have vanity handicaps that they were trying to protect and that the UHS did not respond quickly enough to a players ability.


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## Mozza14 (Nov 7, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			It would be very difficult for it to be the HI played for that round as it was played in October.

There are faults in my WHS which I know about because they have used the wrong course and slope caused by the rating team calling the course by another name but in the main it is so close I am not going to worry about it. One wrong score here one wrong score there by a small margin is not going to make a huge difference in my HI.

I probably play around 25-30 comps a years in normal circumstances so any problems now will soon be ironed out. E.G one of the wrong scores falls out of the 20 next time I submit a score.
		
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You are still completely missing the point. It is nothing to do with your Index being wrong. Your Index is correct. The last HI you have, is not on the graph nor is it posted in the table against your last differential. 

How do you explain that the second HI on your graph went down when you posted a differential of 20? Whatever previous score it replaced it is not possible for it to have reduced your HI. 

Can somebody else try and explain please because I am going round in circles here.


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## nickjdavis (Nov 7, 2020)

It does seem odd that the figure on the far right hand side of your score history is the index that you started that particular round off.

We have become so used to seeing a handicap on the left hand side of a report, then the scores, nett diiffs, adjustments and then finally the resultant handicap as the last figure, that its going to take a lot of golfers a while to get their heads round this.

Confusion will reign but then....thats normal with the WHS!!!


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## Mozza14 (Nov 7, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			It does seem odd that the figure on the far right hand side of your score history is the index that you started that particular round off.

We have become so used to seeing a handicap on the left hand side of a report, then the scores, nett diiffs, adjustments and then finally the resultant handicap as the last figure, that its going to take a lot of golfers a while to get their heads round this.

Confusion will reign but then....thats normal with the WHS!!!
		
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Thank you. It's basically misleading and it as Jim is illustrating it causes complete confusion. Why wouldn't you plot the final HI in the graph? Bonkers.


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## upsidedown (Nov 7, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			Thank you. It's basically misleading and it as Jim is illustrating it causes complete confusion. Why wouldn't you plot the final HI in the graph? Bonkers.
		
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 Conversly when we came back from NZ I found the HDID format confusing 😉, it's the index under which that historical round was played under, make perfect sense to me 😉😂.


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## jim8flog (Nov 7, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			You are still completely missing the point. It is nothing to do with your Index being wrong. Your Index is correct. The last HI you have, is not on the graph nor is it posted in the table against your last differential.

How do you explain that the second HI on your graph went down when you posted a differential of 20? Whatever previous score it replaced it is not possible for it to have reduced your HI.

Can somebody else try and explain please because I am going round in circles here.
		
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Now I am completely not following you.

My Handicap Index is 9.8 as per the headline figure and the figure on IG.

My last score shows a HI of 9.8 against it. It was 9.5 before this score was posted.

Is there something going on in yours which is not happening in mine?

Personally I would treat the graph as indicative only and go by actual scores and I really could not be bothered to work out what went wrong with my HI a year ago as so much has gone wrong with transferring scores from the CDH to to the WHS.


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## Mozza14 (Nov 7, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			Conversly when we came back from NZ I found the HDID format confusing 😉, it's the index under which that historical round was played under, make perfect sense to me 😉😂.
		
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So for you, the purpose of the graph is to match a differential to the Handicap Index from the previous round and then to completely ignore the current figure? You can intuitively look at a very high differential and understand immediately that it isn't associated with a reduced index? 

You certainly must have wonderful insight.  I doubt it will be shared by most of the Country.


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## upsidedown (Nov 7, 2020)

The graph for me is merely an indication of how my HI is trending, up or down. 
Next time I play a qualifier or a casual round the two numbers that will have any significance are 3.1 my current HI and 74 which is my 20th score so depending on where I play I'm fairly certain any thing over 74 will result in HI going up 
Having played under the system for 6 years, yes I do have a better  insight than most but I'll repeat what I said a while ago, possibly before you joined the forum, when we moved to NZ we hated the system for about 3 months but then got it and embraced it.


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## harpo_72 (Nov 7, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			You are still completely missing the point. It is nothing to do with your Index being wrong. Your Index is correct. The last HI you have, is not on the graph nor is it posted in the table against your last differential.

How do you explain that the second HI on your graph went down when you posted a differential of 20? Whatever previous score it replaced it is not possible for it to have reduced your HI.

Can somebody else try and explain please because I am going round in circles here.
		
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Your right, but it might be a case that they just take your first best 8 scores over 20 rounds and that gives the first index and then the round you have next deletes the worst of the last batch of 8 if it’s better.. and so on. So in essence they have done it for every round ..


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## harpo_72 (Nov 7, 2020)

Traminator said:



			People are often saying that if your 20th score is in your top 8 and you then shoot higher than that, you will go up...
That is only potentially true if there isn't another score equal to your 20th in the last 20.
		
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So basically look at your worst in the 8 and try and beat that


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## backwoodsman (Nov 7, 2020)

It makes sense to me that the HI on the graph is the HI applicable to the  relevant round. Because.... the score differential is calculated based on the HI used to play the round. So, on any vertical line, you get two dots, one showing the differential, and one showing the HI by which it was calculated.  Also makes sense to me that your HI for the next round  (ie any new one) does not appear on the graph until  after you've played it.    It's simple enough to look at your current HI your "Summary" page


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## Mozza14 (Nov 7, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			It makes sense to me that the HI on the graph is the HI applicable to the  relevant round. Because....* the score differential is calculated based on the HI used to play the round. *So, on any vertical line, you get two dots, one showing the differential, and one showing the HI by which it was calculated.  Also makes sense to me that your HI for the next round  (ie any new one) does not appear on the graph until  after you've played it.    It's simple enough to look at your current HI your "Summary" page
		
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Completely incorrect I am afraid.


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## Mozza14 (Nov 7, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			It makes sense to me that the HI on the graph is the HI applicable to the  relevant round. Because.... the score differential is calculated based on the HI used to play the round. So, on any vertical line, you get two dots, one showing the differential, and one showing the HI by which it was calculated.  *Also makes sense to me that your HI for the next round  (ie any new one) does not appear on the graph until  after you've played it. *   It's simple enough to look at your current HI your "Summary" page
		
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You *have played* that round (the latest differential is on the graph) and the associated HI it produced isn't on the graph. All your scores and differentials are present. In effect you are agreeing with me.


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## Mozza14 (Nov 7, 2020)

upsidedown said:



*The graph for me is merely an indication of how my HI is trending, up or down.*
Next time I play a qualifier or a casual round the two numbers that will have any significance are 3.1 my current HI and 74 which is my 20th score so depending on where I play I'm fairly certain any thing over 74 will result in HI going up
Having played under the system for 6 years, yes I do have a better  insight than most but I'll repeat what I said a while ago, possibly before you joined the forum, when we moved to NZ we hated the system for about 3 months but then got it and embraced it.
		
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I agree with that. Take my own example. My Current HI is 6.2 which is 0.8 above the last HI of 5.4 shown on my graph. So my HI is trending rapidly upwards but looking at the graph it is not as apparent as it should be. Why exclude the most relevant figure?

I have no problem with WHS. I think it is more responsive and I have monitored it carefully. I do have a problem with the output which I believe is both confusing and misleading. On an associated note the 'friends' facility also displays the  previous HI and not the current ! Why?


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## backwoodsman (Nov 8, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			Completely incorrect I am afraid.
		
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Ok, yes, I got this bit wrong (ie about the HI being involved with the score differential calculation).

But it still makes sense to me that the differential and the handicap index applicable to that game are aligned. And that the new HI arising from that game  (if indeed it has actually changed) is shown separately - because it will apply to a game yet to be played. After all, our old results sheet (at our place anyway) had your score etc as well as the H/C applicable at the time. Ok, it also showed the resulting change - in point ones etc - but the principal figure was the Handicap played to in the round .


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## Mozza14 (Nov 8, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Ok, yes, I got this bit wrong (ie about the HI being involved with the score differential calculation).

But it still makes sense to me that the differential and the handicap index applicable to that game are aligned. And that the new HI arising from that game  (if indeed it has actually changed) is shown separately - because it will apply to a game yet to be played. After all, our old results sheet (at our place anyway) had your score etc as well as the H/C applicable at the time. Ok, it also showed the resulting change - in point ones etc - but the principal figure was the Handicap played to in the round .
		
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 The correlation between the two lines on the graph is far stronger by matching the last differential against the HI it produced. Any HI on the graph is derived from the best 8 scores from 20 (for a full history) To show a top 8 differential and mark it, but not show how it moved the HI is not serving the purpose of having the graph imho.


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## Mozza14 (Nov 8, 2020)

backwoodsman said:



			Ok, yes, I got this bit wrong (ie about the HI being involved with the score differential calculation).

*But it still makes sense to me that the differential and the handicap index applicable to that game are aligned. And that the new HI arising from that game  (if indeed it has actually changed) is shown separately - because it will apply to a game yet to be played. After all, our old results sheet (at our place anyway) had your score etc as well as the H/C applicable at the time. Ok, it also showed the resulting change - in point ones etc - but the principal figure was the Handicap played to in the round .*

Click to expand...

I think you are really describing the production of 'results'. The WHS Portal is there to store fixed data, such as Course Rating and Slope (both per tee) and then to apply variable data, the adjusted score and  the PCC in order to create a differential for each round. The end game is the production of a daily new Handicap Index from an averaging process. The portal is not involved in results and the calculation of the daily Index does not use the HI, the CH or even the playing handicap.

The results production lies outside of all this and is generally being delivered by the ISV's. V1 and HDID in my Club's case.

I can see why people are confused and are strugglling to see the distinction but it has been made worse by how England Golf /DotGolf have specified the table and graphs. If you accept the purpose of the Portal is to create a HI and then not to track its current value in a table or graph is very weird in my mind.

The simple remedy is to push each HI back one place in the table and graphs and everything is then aligned.


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## Mozza14 (Nov 8, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			Conversly when we came back from NZ I found the HDID format confusing 😉, it's the index under which that historical round was played under, make perfect sense to me 😉😂.
		
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May I ask what you found confusing?

The results page in HDID showed score less handicap (rounded)  = Net Score. It then also showed the resulting Handicap to one decimal point. I found that informative.

The handicap record page showed for each date : CSS, Differential = Score -CSS- handicap, the adjustment to handicap, the new handicap to one decimal point and finally the rounded figure to be carried forward. I can't see any difficulty with that.

What did actually you actually want to see different?


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## upsidedown (Nov 8, 2020)

Mozza14 said:



			May I ask what you found confusing?

The results page in HDID showed score less handicap (rounded)  = Net Score. It then also showed the resulting Handicap to one decimal point. I found that informative.

The handicap record page showed for each date : CSS, Differential = Score -CSS, the adjustment to handicap, the new handicap to one decimal point and finally the rounded figure to be carried forward. I can't see any difficulty with that.

What did actually you actually want to see different?
		
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As I play a lot of Open events HDID doesn't show my results. 
For example in Sept this year in HDID I played at home course, made buffer and handicap was 4, next shown result my handicap is 5.
Because I'd played  an Open and not buffered I'd gone up. 
Under WHS that result is now shown as it was in NZ as you could put any card in from any course you played. 
That was the system I was used to and understood so found it confusing that not all my scores where not shown


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## Mozza14 (Nov 8, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			As I play a lot of Open events HDID doesn't show my results.
For example in Sept this year in HDID I played at home course, made buffer and handicap was 4, next shown result my handicap is 5.
Because I'd played  an Open and not buffered I'd gone up.
Under WHS that result is now shown as it was in NZ as you could put any card in from any course you played.
That was the system I was used to and understood so found it confusing that not all my scores where not shown
		
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I can see that entirely. WHS is clearly better for tracking all performance.

You have, however, changed the topic there. We were discussing why you felt showing an adjustment to your handicap against the date and score that produced it, was confusing?


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## upsidedown (Nov 8, 2020)

No I said I found the format confusing. I'll explain, the below is what I was used, all the relavant info readily to hand, as I like to track my handicap. Now in HDID there was no facility for that and you had to investigate further. 
I should have said frustration instead of confusion, as having been away for 6 years HDID was so far behind Dotgolf it was unreal. 
Does that make sense?


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## jim8flog (Nov 8, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			No I said I found the format confusing. I'll explain, the below is what I was used, all the relavant info readily to hand, as I like to track my handicap. Now in HDID there was no facility for that and you had to investigate further.
I should have said frustration instead of confusion, as having been away for 6 years HDID was so far behind Dotgolf it was unreal.
Does that make sense?
View attachment 33451
View attachment 33451

Click to expand...


With the WHS all that info will on your account on England Golf, just click on the score for any round submitted (post November 2nd).

We have IG and we can see the info in that format on there.


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## Mozza14 (Nov 8, 2020)

upsidedown said:



			No I said I found the format confusing. I'll explain, the below is what I was used, all the relavant info readily to hand, as I like to track my handicap. Now in HDID there was no facility for that and you had to investigate further.
I should have said frustration instead of confusion, as having been away for 6 years HDID was so far behind Dotgolf it was unreal.
Does that make sense?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, I think WHS tracks performance and reflects this in the Handicap Index well.

I calculate your Index at 3.8 following the last round shown. All I am saying is that the table would be so much better if that 3.8 was shown against the last differential (one of your best 8). I can see we have adopted the same software but I still think it could display the current HI and graphs better.

Nice golf by the way.


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## upsidedown (Nov 8, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			With the WHS all that info will on your account on England Golf, just click on the score for any round submitted (post November 2nd).

We have IG and we can see the info in that format on there.
		
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Alas not on HDID unless I'm missing something !



Mozza14 said:



			Yes, I think WHS tracks performance and reflects this in the Handicap Index well.
I calculate your Index at 3.8 following the last round shown. All I am saying is that the table would be so much better if that 3.8 was shown against the last differential (one of your best 8). I can see we have adopted the same software but I still think it could display the current HI and graphs better.

Nice golf by the way.
		
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Alas not my golf  but my mate's but I now have bragging rights as mine is lower than his under the same system  Been back in Blighty for 6 years now


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## Old Skier (Nov 8, 2020)

Your missing something as far as I can see unless I have misunderstand what you said because the exact same is shown on my results in HDID


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## upsidedown (Nov 8, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Your missing something as far as I can see unless I have misunderstand what you said because the exact same is shown on my results in HDID
		
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Yes it is now with the WHS portal but under the old Congu on HDID I had to dig deeper to see the CSS etc which is what i was referring to in answer to Mozza14 and the lack of Open results


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## jonfSAOLGC (Nov 8, 2020)

IanM said:



			Edit: Had a chat with our Society Sec this morning.  Will continue to administer own handicaps next season and not adopt any changes.  Although a note is going out asking members to "do the decent thing" if they are playing home course off fewer shots than they get on Soc Days!  What are other Societies doing???
		
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We currently only have 3 members who don't have an official handicap index, so for those I'm going to do my own WHS calculations from the past to work out a current index and then going forward calculate as per WHS, for all those with official index we are just using that and then plan is to put all our society scores into the WHS system


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## Old Skier (Nov 8, 2020)

jonfSAOLGC said:



			We currently only have 3 members who don't have an official handicap index, so for those I'm going to do my own WHS calculations from the past to work out a current index and then going forward calculate as per WHS, for all those with official index we are just using that and then plan is to put all our society scores into the WHS system
		
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We will use the slope of the course we play at as  all but 2 of mine have an index, for the 2 I'll do the same as you.


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## IanMcC (Nov 8, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Playing Handicap, which is what they are, is always a whole number.
*6.2a *_The calculated Playing Handicap is rounded to the nearest whole number, with .5 rounded upwards_

Click to expand...

Just created a dummy comp on ClubV1. Mixed Texas Scramble. The text says it uses the new 25/20/15/10 format. Created a team, and the handicap was to one decimal place.


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## rulefan (Nov 8, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Just created a dummy comp on ClubV1. Mixed Texas Scramble. The text says it uses the new 25/20/15/10 format. Created a team, and the handicap was to one decimal place.
		
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Are you in Scotland? That would explain it.


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## IanMcC (Nov 8, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Are you in Scotland? That would explain it.
		
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No. I'm in Wales.


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## 2blue (Nov 9, 2020)

Sorry if this is a daft question or has already been covered but how are acceptable AWAY scores returned?
Yes, I understand that you'd register your intent to play such, on the away Club's PSI but is that the only place you can record your round or is it possible to return the Score Card to your Home Club to be registered.
Obviously, this is when golf returns to 'Normal'.... whatever that means.


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## IanMcC (Nov 9, 2020)

2blue said:



			Sorry if this is a daft question or has already been covered but how are acceptable AWAY scores returned?
Yes, I understand that you'd register your intent to play such, on the away Club's PSI but is that the only place you can record your round or is it possible to return the Score Card to your Home Club to be registered.
Obviously, this is when golf returns to 'Normal'.... whatever that means.
		
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Dont know if this is the correct method or not, but I am simply asking members to inform me via email or text on the morning that they wish to play, then send me a pic of the card. I will then process it through Clubhouse.
Havent done one yet, though.


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## clubchamp98 (Nov 9, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Are you in Scotland? That would explain it.
		
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IanMcC said:



			No. I'm in Wales.
		
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If it’s a World Handicap System why does it matter what country you are in?


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## Old Skier (Nov 9, 2020)

2blue said:



			Sorry if this is a daft question or has already been covered but how are acceptable AWAY scores returned?
Yes, I understand that you'd register your intent to play such, on the away Club's PSI but is that the only place you can record your round or is it possible to return the Score Card to your Home Club to be registered.
Obviously, this is when golf returns to 'Normal'.... whatever that means.
		
Click to expand...

PSI
App
Away cards can be entered at home club providing your admin/HC team have access to the WHS dashboard


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## jim8flog (Nov 9, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			If it’s a World Handicap System why does it matter what country you are in?
		
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 As much as we would like all countries to have the same rules Scotland is sticking to it's own and not all countries have adopted the same rules that already existed in other countries that have used the system for years.


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## Old Skier (Nov 9, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			If it’s a World Handicap System why does it matter what country you are in?
		
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Because it's not a "WHS" as was originally advertised.  The different country officials realised that if it was a real WHS they would be out of a job.


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## rulefan (Nov 9, 2020)

clubchamp98 said:



			If it’s a World Handicap System why does it matter what country you are in?
		
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When it was first mentioned the publicity said there would initially be variations for local customs and traditions. It hoped/expected that there will be more standardisation as time goes on.
But there is now one system that is fundamentally the same around the world as opposed to six quite different ones previously.


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 9, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			PSI
App
Away cards can be entered at home club providing your admin/HC team have access to the WHS dashboard
		
Click to expand...

Which app are you referring to?


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## Imurg (Nov 19, 2020)

In my hours of boredom I've been looking over a few things WHS.
I've noticed that my scores, imported from Whipsnade, show a slope of 125 - we always played from the yellows as the Old Boys couldn't handle the whites.
The Whipsnade website is showing a "provisional slope rating certficate" giving the yellows a slope of 114.
This, I imagine, would make a difference to the course handicap allocated to that round in their calculations and therefore the differential and therefore the new HI...
Is this worth pointing out.?
There are only 5 cards left from Whipsnade so they'll probably be gone fairly soon ( end of January probably)


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## HomerJSimpson (Nov 19, 2020)

Imurg said:



			In my hours of boredom I've been looking over a few things WHS.
I've noticed that my scores, imported from Whipsnade, show a slope of 125 - we always played from the yellows as the Old Boys couldn't handle the whites.
The Whipsnade website is showing a "provisional slope rating certficate" giving the yellows a slope of 114.
This, I imagine, would make a difference to the course handicap allocated to that round in their calculations and therefore the differential and therefore the new HI...
Is this worth pointing out.?
There are only 5 cards left from Whipsnade so they'll probably be gone fairly soon ( end of January probably)
		
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If these were competitive rounds I assume the yellow tees were marked on the card and so surely need to calculated against the correct slope. If they have been incorrectly assessed I assume you can get them changed but also presume you'll need Whipsnade to a) get a verified yellow tee certificate and b) get them to agree to look at the cards. Personally I'm sure I'd bother


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Nov 19, 2020)

I had a look today, (bored like a few of us), and lo and behold, it has me playing my comps off the yellow tees. I have NEVER played off the yellow tees, except when I'm playing with a visitor maybe. All our comps are off the white tees.They have the slope at 130 off yellow, (I'm sure we are 133 off white), and the course rating at 69.6 (yellow). I think our course rating is 71.2 off white.
My handicap was 11.1 on Congu. Now it is listed at 11.3. Will this change, as I presume this is a basic clerical error?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Nov 19, 2020)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			I had a look today, (bored like a few of us), and lo and behold, it has me playing my comps off the yellow tees. I have NEVER played off the yellow tees, except when I'm playing with a visitor maybe. All our comps are off the white tees.They have the slope at 130 off yellow, (I'm sure we are 133 off white), and the course rating at 69.6 (yellow). I think our course rating is 71.2 off white.
My handicap was 11.1 on Congu. Now it is listed at 11.3. Will this change, as I presume this is a basic clerical error?
		
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Up to your club to sort it out.

WHS support are not interested and have passed the buck back to the clubs.

Mine is a mess, scores missing and incorrect scores included as my counting scores. Quite a few others at my club in the same boat, our secretary predicted this mess months and to say he is less than impressed is an understatement.


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## rulefan (Nov 19, 2020)

saving_par said:



			Up to your club to sort it out.

WHS support are not interested and have passed the buck back to the clubs.
		
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If your club sends full details to whs.support@etc will deal with it. They literally have many hundreds of queries outstanding which are now being dealt with on an individual basis. But looks like a ten day Q.




			....scores missing and incorrect scores included as my counting scores. Quite a few others at my club in the same boat, ...
		
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Much but not all of this apparently was a problem with data from the ISVs not successfully updating the CDH

Incidentally, it is reported that other countries that have already converted were taking 4 - 8 weeks to get sorted.


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Nov 19, 2020)

Thanks for the info both saving_par, and rulefan.
This Lockdown has proved a bit of a blessing in disguise for WHS hasn't it? Just imagine, no Lockdown, and good weather ..........chaos!!


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## rulefan (Nov 20, 2020)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			Thanks for the info both saving_par, and rulefan.
This Lockdown has proved a bit of a blessing in disguise for WHS hasn't it? Just imagine, no Lockdown, and good weather ..........chaos!!
		
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Indeed. They originally chose the date because it preceded a relatively quiet time for competitions. Lockdown is a bonus.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Nov 20, 2020)

rulefan said:



			If your club sends full details to whs.support@etc will deal with it. They literally have many hundreds of queries outstanding which are now being dealt with on an individual basis. But looks like a ten day Q.


Much but not all of this apparently was a problem with data from the ISVs not successfully updating the CDH

Incidentally, it is reported that other countries that have already converted were taking 4 - 8 weeks to get sorted.
		
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WHS support have responded by saying it is up to the clubs to input the scores. Since there are quite a lot of players with incomplete records this is a lot of work for club officials to carry out.

My question would be, why are the clubs having to sort it out? I can see all my q and nq comp rounds on the my rounds section of IG and yet my WHS handicap record has big gaps in the scores showing on it.

WHS support should be working with the ISV's to ensure CDH updates are completed correctly, ISV's are after all getting paid by clubs and I'm sure DotGolf are getting paid handsomely by England Golf, Ireland Golf and Wales Golf.


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## JonnyGutteridge (Nov 20, 2020)

Disappointed to realise that as a result of the new system, I am no longer eligible for Surrey 5s (Club knockout, handicaps 5-18)... my old handicap was 5.7, but new one is 4.3. Even though 90% of courses will see me playing off 5, I can’t play 😥


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## jim8flog (Nov 20, 2020)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			Disappointed to realise that as a result of the new system, I am no longer eligible for Surrey 5s (Club knockout, handicaps 5-18)... my old handicap was 5.7, but new one is 4.3. Even though 90% of courses will see me playing off 5, I can’t play 😥
		
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 I would expect that a lot of clubs and organisations are going to have to review the handicap criteria with the introduction of the WHS particularly as the recommendation is to use Handicap Index.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 20, 2020)

Watching the golf monthly you tube guide to handicap 

Notice they have giving out the misinformation that slope is difficulty of the course rather than the difference between what a scratch golfer and bogey golfer would expect


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## nickjdavis (Nov 20, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Much but not all of this apparently was a problem with data from the ISVs not successfully updating the CDH

.
		
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Is it really the case that clubs were not publishing their scores to the CDH on a regular basis? I know that whenever we ran a comp and entered the Scores in HandicapMaster, we would automatically "publish the scores to internet" which meant...

1) send the scores to Masterscoreboard (equivalent to HDID)
2) send the scores to the CDH

I do find it somewhat odd that vast swathes of handicap committees have been seemingly delinquent in their processing and management of their players handicaps in respect of the CDH system.

I guess its like anything though...we are only hearing about the problems....what we are not hearing about are the vast number of clubs who actually do not have any issues with missing scores, corrupt tee data etc etc. Maybe all the "noise" is actually only coming from a small percentage of clubs and for most clubs the transition has gone relatively smoothly.

To be honest, whilst the CDH was a good idea I think it was only "pushed" in a relatively half-hearted manner as there was very little player benefit with the exception of perhaps not needing a handicap certificate....in theory you could just go to a club, give them your CDH number and they would be able to look you up and verify your ability....but this never really happened. I remember going to play at Woodhall Spa just several months after the CDH was launched, armed with my England Golf membership card. On arrival to sign in I was asked for evidence of my handicap, handed over my card and they just looked at me and said that it was no good....they had no facility to look up my CDH number or even swipe the card (it has a magnetic stripe)...they wanted paper evidence of my handicap!!


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## JonnyGutteridge (Nov 20, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Why would they need to review the criteria?
Players will either be in or out, for every player who drops out, there will be another who is now in.
		
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You are quite right of course, anyone off 19 previously will likely be 17/18 now, and thus eligible to replace me!

This just means no knockout golf for me, as I’m about the 50th lowest handicap in the club it’s not like I’m sniffing around the scratch team!!


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## rulefan (Nov 20, 2020)

nickjdavis said:



			Is it really the case that clubs were not publishing their scores to the CDH on a regular basis? I know that whenever we ran a comp and entered the Scores in HandicapMaster, we would automatically "publish the scores to internet" which meant...

1) send the scores to Masterscoreboard (equivalent to HDID)
2) send the scores to the CDH

I do find it somewhat odd that vast swathes of handicap committees have been seemingly delinquent in their processing and management of their players handicaps in respect of the CDH system.
		
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The issue was that although the club had clicked 'publish' and the ISV had seemingly done just that, the scores were not getting through to the CDH. That was the situation we had with V1. The records were in the V1 audit log but not in CDH. Somehow or other I gather, V1 resent them to either CDH or WHS. Didn't get involved in the detail but the player involved has now got the correct data and Index in WHS.

It would seem that the second paragraph in an EG statement below is proceeding

*‘MISSING’ SCORES*
_
If any scores (before 2 November 2020) from a golfer’s playing record do not appear on the WHS system this is down to the fact that the information was never transferred to the CDH via the club’s software.

Golfers can ask that the home club posts these directly onto the England Golf WHS Golf Club Platform. We are also in conversation with club software providers to facilitate a transfer of ‘missing’ scores which only appear on club records._


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## Imurg (Nov 20, 2020)

Kaz said:



			48 points won two weeks ago, 47 won last week. Any guesses for tomorrow? Will we see the first 50+ points winner?
		
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What have you got to shoot, gross, to score that?


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## Imurg (Nov 20, 2020)

Kaz said:



			62 

Click to expand...

11 under..? Don't know what you're worrying about..


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## Swango1980 (Nov 20, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Why would they need to review the criteria?
Players will either be in or out, for every player who drops out, there will be another who is now in.
		
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They'll need to review the criteria because they'll need to decide if any handicap limitations are still doing what they wanted them to do in the first place. The goal posts have changed.

For example, a club may have had a competition where they had a 28.4 handicap limit, and for whatever reason felt they didn't want anybody getting more shots than that (or whatever other limit they set). However, a person who was just within that acceptable limit previously would be well within that limit if it applied to Index (their Index could typically expected to be be around 23.0 or a bit higher, on a course of Slope 140). On the same course, a player with a 28.4 Index would have a course handicap of 35, which could be unacceptably high based on previous criteria.

Our county have a handicap league, in which the maximum handicap allowed was 17. I'll be interested to see if this is reviewed for next year. If not, golfers will have a course handicap of 23 at the hardest courses in the league, which is a lot higher than the county were previously comfortable with.


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## jim8flog (Nov 20, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Why would they need to review the criteria?
Players will either be in or out, for every player who drops out, there will be another who is now in.
		
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You are right the organisers could simply say maximum or minimum Handicap Index at the same number as the UHS handicap

The recommendation for a switch to handicap index is on the simple basis that every player knows exactly where they stand with regard to competition entry.

I.e a player will not have to look at the slope for the course where the competition will be held and work out their Course Handicap for the course* and tee* to decide if they will be eligible to enter.

*By choosing Handicap Index the course does not have to state which tee will be used on advertising posters and entry forms.

As to Johnny Gutteridge's comments  it as comp which involves many courses. Using Handicap Index it means that players will not have to work out their Course handicap on all the courses to see if they can enter as he says he would be allowed to enter on 90% of the courses if it simply said minimum handicap for entry is 5 without specifying if that is course or index.


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## rulefan (Nov 20, 2020)

I think most country authorities are recommending the Index.


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## evemccc (Nov 23, 2020)

Just after WHS was launched there were people posting their new handicaps that showed ‘interesting jumps’ from what they had on CONGU....has that been rectified or is it still throwing out bizarre results?

I have only just looked and seen my jumped from 20.5 to 15.4...I’ve never played a comp and had only ever submitted a couple of Sup Scores since getting my handicap this summer...one had made the CONGU Index go up by 0.1 and the second made it go down by 0.6

Never shot anything like 15 so quite surprised to see a 5 shot jump


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## Wabinez (Nov 23, 2020)

evemccc said:



			Just after WHS was launched there were people posting their new handicaps that showed ‘interesting jumps’ from what they had on CONGU....has that been rectified or is it still throwing out bizarre results?

I have only just looked and seen my jumped from 20.5 to 15.4...I’ve never played a comp and had only ever submitted a couple of Sup Scores since getting my handicap this summer...one had made the CONGU Index go up by 0.1 and the second made it go down by 0.6

Never shot anything like 15 so quite surprised to see a 5 shot jump
		
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it depends how many cards you have put in, there is then a sliding scale of the average. It’s likely looking at your lowest score or 2, adjusting it accordingly, and then churning out 15.4.

I think, by and large, the system is up and running for the majority and what you see is correct


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## rulefan (Nov 23, 2020)

evemccc said:



			Just after WHS was launched there were people posting their new handicaps that showed ‘interesting jumps’ from what they had on CONGU....has that been rectified or is it still throwing out bizarre results?

I have only just looked and seen my jumped from 20.5 to 15.4...I’ve never played a comp and had only ever submitted a couple of Sup Scores since getting my handicap this summer...one had made the CONGU Index go up by 0.1 and the second made it go down by 0.6

Never shot anything like 15 so quite surprised to see a 5 shot jump
		
Click to expand...

Averaging isn't used until you have at least 6 scores. For the first 3 it uses the best. 
But remember, it is not simply the difference between gross score and course rating but that figure has to be de-sloped. ie multiplied by (113/slope)


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## hovis (Nov 26, 2020)

Question please
Can you enter rounds and do they count under pick and place rules and par 3 matts?


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## nickjdavis (Nov 26, 2020)

evemccc said:



			Just after WHS was launched there were people posting their new handicaps that showed ‘interesting jumps’ from what they had on CONGU....has that been rectified or is it still throwing out bizarre results?

I have only just looked and seen my jumped from 20.5 to 15.4...I’ve never played a comp and had only ever submitted a couple of Sup Scores since getting my handicap this summer...one had made the CONGU Index go up by 0.1 and the second made it go down by 0.6

Never shot anything like 15 so quite surprised to see a 5 shot jump
		
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If your second score made it go down by 0.6 then that would have been 2 shots below SSS under the old Congu methodology. So playing off 21, your gross differential would have been 19. If your course slope slope is, I dunno....say 124 then your de-sloped gross differential will be 19/124*113 = 17.3. If you only have 3 or fewer scores in your record then the system will use your best score (i.e. best de-sloped differential) and subtract two strokes to get your index ...so my "totally off the head numbers/assumptions about your course" (and assumption that this was your best score) leads to a calculation where your index is going to be 15.3.


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## rulefan (Nov 26, 2020)

hovis said:



			Question please
Can you enter rounds and do they count under pick and place rules and par 3 matts?
		
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Between the authorised dates, Preferred Lies (within 6"), fairway mats and tee mats are permitted.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Nov 26, 2020)

Finally got my H.H. sorted, the inital 4.7 is now up to 5.7.

Sad reflection of my game the last 2 dodgy back affected seasons but if I stay healthy that will come down loads and should register a win early season if I play anywhere near my best golf.

No doubt I have just jinxed myself 

Roll on Wednesday when my mate and I who where both off 5 under CONGU resume playing. Him 2.7 now, me 5.7 so I think I am strong favourite if I claim my shots


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## apj0524 (Nov 26, 2020)

Some help please regarding the calculation of PH please.

Under current restrictions we have a role up Tee Booking Stableford on Saturday so players will need to fill out their card rather than rely on the pr-printed card.

I have communicated that they only need to have the the CH on the card but many will want to know their PH for the comp so they can keep a tally of their points.

So I want to give them reminder how to the calculate this and ie HI x (Slope/Std Slope) = CH x 95% = PH but I am sure I have read in one of the Handicap Rules Book that that the rounding occurs ONLY when you calculate the PH not when you calculate the CH and then again when your PH.

Am I correct that rounding is only used after calculating the PH and if I am can you point me in the direction of the R&R or CONGU rule

Thanks


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## IainP (Nov 26, 2020)

apj0524 said:



			Some help please regarding the calculation of PH please.

Under current restrictions we have a role up Tee Booking Stableford on Saturday so players will need to fill out their card rather than rely on the pr-printed card.

I have communicated that they only need to have the the CH on the card but many will want to know their PH for the comp so they can keep a tally of their points.

So I want to give them reminder how to the calculate this and ie HI x (Slope/Std Slope) = CH x 95% = PH but I am sure I have read in one of the Handicap Rules Book that that the rounding occurs ONLY when you calculate the PH not when you calculate the CH and then again when your PH.

Am I correct that rounding is only used after calculating the PH and if I am can you point me in the direction of the R&R or CONGU rule

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

I can't, but think the R&A and EG calculator give out a rounded CH.
I think I read somewhere that there was some uncertainty in Scotland.

Edit, may have been this
https://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/t...ved-in-admin-at-your-club.107009/post-2255720


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## Vikingman (Nov 26, 2020)

It used to be that your handicap must be on the card in competition golf.

What is it now, handicap index? course handicap? Competition handicap?


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## 2blue (Nov 26, 2020)

Vikingman said:



			It used to be that your handicap must be on the card in competition golf.

What is it now, handicap index? course handicap? Competition handicap?
		
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I've looked but failed to see where this requirement might be, so very interested.


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## rulefan (Nov 26, 2020)

Vikingman said:



			It used to be that your handicap must be on the card in competition golf.

What is it now, handicap index? course handicap? Competition handicap?
		
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*G2.1b/1 Handicap On The Scorecard *
To avoid a DQ under Rule 3.3b (4) of the Rules of Golf the player must put his/her Course Handicap on the scorecard (see Interpretation 3.3b (4)/1 of the Rules of Golf). This is expressed as an integer and represents the number of strokes the player receives for handicap purposes for both Competition scores and General Play returns.

It is the responsibility of the Committee to apply the handicap allowance for any stroke play competition; in practice this will done by the software. Players need to be able to access their Handicap Index and then refer to a relevant look-up table to obtain their Course Handicap for the tees used.

Whilst not mandatory, CONGU® recommend that space for the Handicap Index and Playing Handicap is also on the scorecard.


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## rulefan (Nov 26, 2020)

IainP said:



			I can't, but think the R&A and EG calculator give out a rounded CH.
I think I read somewhere that there was some uncertainty in Scotland.
		
Click to expand...

*G6.2a Playing Handicap Calculation.* 
For some National Associations, it is recommended for practical application that the Course Handicap used in the Playing Handicap calculation is the rounded integer value and not the full calculated CH value, as this is not accessible to the player without access to the complete calculation. This application will be consistent across all competition formats including 9-hole and multi- tee events. Compared to using the full calculated CH value, this recommendation will only affect the outcome of the competition results, having no effect on the outcome of the calculation of the players handicap. 

For other National Associations, the Course Handicap used in the Playing Handicap calculation will be the full calculated CH value, as it is expected that the player will always have ready access to an App or other software to generate the Course Handicap rather than be expected to perform the Playing Handicap calculation themselves. 

Committees and players should follow the advice of their National Association in the use of the integer or full calculated Course Handicap in the calculation of the Playing Handicap. 

*For GB&I, England, Wales and Ireland will be using the Rounded Course Handicap, whilst Scotland will be using the full calculated Course Handicap. *


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## jim8flog (Nov 26, 2020)

apj0524 said:



			Some help please regarding the calculation of PH please.

Under current restrictions we have a role up Tee Booking Stableford on Saturday so players will need to fill out their card rather than rely on the pr-printed card.

I have communicated that they only need to have the the CH on the card but many will want to know their PH for the comp so they can keep a tally of their points.

So I want to give them reminder how to the calculate this and ie HI x (Slope/Std Slope) = CH x 95% = PH but I am sure I have read in one of the Handicap Rules Book that that the rounding occurs ONLY when you calculate the PH not when you calculate the CH and then again when your PH.

Am I correct that rounding is only used after calculating the PH and if I am can you point me in the direction of the R&R or CONGU rule

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

 Rounding is used in after the calculation of the Course Handicap (it is the figure on the Charts where you are playing ) unless you are playing in Scotland and is rounded again after the calculation of 95%

 See rulefan's post for the relevant rule


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## rulefan (Nov 26, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Rounding is used in after the calculation of the Course Handicap (it is the figure on the Charts where you are playing ) unless you are playing in Scotland and is rounded* again* after the calculation of 95%

See rulefan's post for the relevant rule
		
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I'm not sure that what you wrote above is what you actually meant.


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## jim8flog (Nov 27, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I'm not sure that what you wrote above is what you actually meant. 

Click to expand...

Multiplying a whole number by 95% will produce an answer which will have a decimal point, this is then rounded to the nearest whole number.

Are you understanding that in a different way?


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## rulefan (Nov 27, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			dividing a whole number by 95% will produce an answer which will have a decimal point, this is then rounded to the nearest whole number.

Are you understanding that in a different way?
		
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It was your use of the words 'rounded again'. The CH is not not rounded a second time in Scotland. It is the resultant Playing Handicap that is rounded.

The CH itself is a rounded integer and is used in all calculations involving the CH. However, the only exception is in Scotland where the unrounded figure is used to calculate the Playing Handicap.


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## Foxholer (Nov 27, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			dividing a whole number by 95% will produce an answer which will have a decimal point, this is then rounded to the nearest whole number.

Are you understanding that in a different way?
		
Click to expand...

I believe it's multiplied by 95% (making it smaller) not 'divided by 95%'!


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## jim8flog (Nov 27, 2020)

rulefan said:



			It was your use of the words 'rounded again'. The CH is not not rounded a second time in Scotland. It is the resultant Playing Handicap that is rounded.

The CH itself is a rounded integer and is used in all calculations involving the CH. However, the only exception is in Scotland where the unrounded figure is used to calculate the Playing Handicap.
		
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 I said...................unless you are playing in Scotland


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## jim8flog (Nov 27, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			I believe it's multiplied by 95% (making it smaller) not 'divided by 95%'!
		
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 Thanks now corrected (early morning for me and not understanding what rulefan was getting at) particularly as this was a response to a poster who lives in Somerset.


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## apj0524 (Nov 27, 2020)

rulefan said:



*G6.2a Playing Handicap Calculation.*
For some National Associations, it is recommended for practical application that the Course Handicap used in the Playing Handicap calculation is the rounded integer value and not the full calculated CH value, as this is not accessible to the player without access to the complete calculation. This application will be consistent across all competition formats including 9-hole and multi- tee events. Compared to using the full calculated CH value, this recommendation will only affect the outcome of the competition results, having no effect on the outcome of the calculation of the players handicap.

For other National Associations, the Course Handicap used in the Playing Handicap calculation will be the full calculated CH value, as it is expected that the player will always have ready access to an App or other software to generate the Course Handicap rather than be expected to perform the Playing Handicap calculation themselves.

Committees and players should follow the advice of their National Association in the use of the integer or full calculated Course Handicap in the calculation of the Playing Handicap.

*For GB&I, England, Wales and Ireland will be using the Rounded Course Handicap, whilst Scotland will be using the full calculated Course Handicap. *

Click to expand...

Thanks for the replies


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## Wilson (Nov 27, 2020)

Quick question, that I can't seem to find a definitive answer for - how do I submit a score from an away course, and who do I have to notify in advance? If I was submitting a supplementary at my home course, I would notify the secretary via email, and send him the card - my current plan is to do the same, as well as ask the course if I need to tell them anything, as I can't seem to get a straight answer.

I'm hoping that going forward this can be done via the app, which would make sense.


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## Wabinez (Nov 27, 2020)

Wilson said:



			Quick question, that I can't seem to find a definitive answer for - how do I submit a score from an away course, and who do I have to notify in advance? If I was submitting a supplementary at my home course, I would notify the secretary via email, and send him the card - my current plan is to do the same, as well as ask the course if I need to tell them anything, as I can't seem to get a straight answer.

I'm hoping that going forward this can be done via the app, which would make sense.
		
Click to expand...

notify the pro shop, submit card after.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 27, 2020)

Wabinez said:



			notify the pro shop, submit card after.
		
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Wishful thinking. Just before lockdown, we notified the pro at the pro-shop (a course we were not members of). He didn't have a clue what the procedure was, in terms of pre-registering or how to enter our scores after.


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## apj0524 (Nov 27, 2020)

Wilson said:



			Quick question, that I can't seem to find a definitive answer for - how do I submit a score from an away course, and who do I have to notify in advance? If I was submitting a supplementary at my home course, I would notify the secretary via email, and send him the card - my current plan is to do the same, as well as ask the course if I need to tell them anything, as I can't seem to get a straight answer.

I'm hoping that going forward this can be done via the app, which would make sense.
		
Click to expand...

I have just looked on Dot.Golf Web site and I can enter a score for one of our members who played on another course, so I would think you could either pre register with you handicap team or pro shop, score and have card verified by your marker then hand it into the pro or handicap team at you club for entry onto the Dot.Golf web site.  That is what we are planning to do, but have not tested the process yet


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## 2blue (Nov 28, 2020)

Wilson said:



			Quick question, that I can't seem to find a definitive answer for - how do I submit a score from an away course, and who do I have to notify in advance? If I was submitting a supplementary at my home course, I would notify the secretary via email, and send him the card - my current plan is to do the same, as well as ask the course if I need to tell them anything, as I can't seem to get a straight answer.

I'm hoping that going forward this can be done via the app, which would make sense.
		
Click to expand...

Hopefully, going forward, for both Home & Away scores, you will be able to enter your intention to play an Acceptable General Play Round & record your score on either the AWAY Club's PSI or your App, or am I just dreaming this??


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## Jamesbrown (Nov 28, 2020)

Wilson said:



			Quick question, that I can't seem to find a definitive answer for - how do I submit a score from an away course, and who do I have to notify in advance? If I was submitting a supplementary at my home course, I would notify the secretary via email, and send him the card - my current plan is to do the same, as well as ask the course if I need to tell them anything, as I can't seem to get a straight answer.

I'm hoping that going forward this can be done via the app, which would make sense.
		
Click to expand...

There’s an option on my IG app to add a card and there’s an option on HDID app. 
Although I’ve not seen a proper procedure published. Can I just add a round on my app? Who knows? 
I am going to give it a whirl next week. But if my handicap chap has a say in anything any extra cards put in means you are cheating


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## Old Skier (Nov 28, 2020)

Wilson said:



			Quick question, that I can't seem to find a definitive answer for - how do I submit a score from an away course, and who do I have to notify in advance? If I was submitting a supplementary at my home course, I would notify the secretary via email, and send him the card - my current plan is to do the same, as well as ask the course if I need to tell them anything, as I can't seem to get a straight answer.

I'm hoping that going forward this can be done via the app, which would make sense.
		
Click to expand...

Register at visiting club, take card back to home club as they have the facility to enter scores at other courses via the EG dashboard


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## 2blue (Nov 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Register at visiting club,* take card back to home club as they have the facility to enter scores at other courses via the EG dashboard*

Click to expand...

I guess it won't be all H/cap Secretaries or Teams that will appreciate the extra work created by this, especially as the score needs to be recorded that day before mid-night as there may well be a resulting H/cap change that is not easy for the player to anticipate should they be playing in a Comp the following day. It should be the player's responsibility to submit the score that day or I doubt it will be done in retrospect as it could have an effect on Comp results etc.....  or am I reading this wrongly??


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## Old Skier (Nov 28, 2020)

2blue said:



			I guess it won't be all H/cap Secretaries or Teams that will appreciate the extra work created by this, especially as the score needs to be recorded that day before mid-night as there may well be a resulting H/cap change that is not easy for the player to anticipate should they be playing in a Comp the following day. It should be the player's responsibility to submit the score that day or I doubt it will be done in retrospect as it could have an effect on Comp results etc.....  or am I reading this wrongly??
		
Click to expand...

Im telling our members to ask the pro shop to initial card before they go out and phot the card and sent it to me. Not ideal and don’t expect many to bother for now and hopefully the apps will allow for this in the future.


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## jim8flog (Nov 28, 2020)

2blue said:



			I guess it won't be all H/cap Secretaries or Teams that will appreciate the extra work created by this, especially as the score needs to be recorded that day before mid-night *as there may well be a resulting H/cap change that is not easy for the player to anticipate should they be playing in a Comp the following day*. It should be the player's responsibility to submit the score that day or I doubt it will be done in retrospect as it could have an effect on Comp results etc.....  or am I reading this wrongly??
		
Click to expand...

 With the WHS a player plays according to the Handicap Index on his record the day of the comp. All changes are processed by 12.01 am and if the has not been recorded by then it is irrelevant for that days comp.

All players should simply get in to the habit of checking there H.I. on the day of play.


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## jim8flog (Nov 28, 2020)

Jamesbrown said:



			But if my handicap chap has a say in anything any extra cards put in means you are cheating
		
Click to expand...

Looks like his attitude needs to change.  We actively encourage players to put in as many cards as possible to ensure the H.I. meets current ability.


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## jim8flog (Nov 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Im telling our members to ask the pro shop to initial card before they go out and phot the card and sent it to me. Not ideal and don’t expect many to bother for now and hopefully the apps will allow for this in the future.
		
Click to expand...


 IGs App allows this and it is part of the process. Mind when we were running the app in the summer there were a lot who failed to do it.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

My handicap sec sent email out in week saying our slope has to be wrong because we are harder than other courses around and etc 

So emailed him back the points on here from @Liverpoolphil @rulefan  etc who have explained how slope works and how it isn't difficultly it's the difference between scratch and 18 handicapper etc 

Was the information from golf England poor? Or is my handicap sec a bit missinformed


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## Deleted member 3432 (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			My handicap sec sent email out in week saying our slope has to be wrong because we are harder than other courses around and etc

So emailed him back the points on here from @Liverpoolphil @rulefan  etc who have explained how slope works and how it isn't difficultly it's the difference between scratch and 18 handicapper etc

Was the information from golf England poor? Or is my handicap sec a bit missinformed
		
Click to expand...

A bit like the rules of golf, why keep the explanation simple when you can make it long winded and confusing and then more people get involved all with different interpretations.....


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			My handicap sec sent email out in week saying our slope has to be wrong because we are harder than other courses around and etc

So emailed him back the points on here from @Liverpoolphil @rulefan  etc who have explained how slope works and how it isn't difficultly it's the difference between scratch and 18 handicapper etc

Was the information from golf England poor? Or is my handicap sec a bit missinformed
		
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Sorry but why did the HC sec email out to members that they got the slope wrong based on his own opinion ? Is he a coirse assessor ? 

Also what is he judging that makes him believe the course is “harder” 

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/slope-rating-new-golf-handicap-system/


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry but why did the HC sec email out to members that they got the slope wrong based on his own opinion ? Is he a coirse assessor ?

Also what is he judging that makes him believe the course is “harder”

https://www.nationalclubgolfer.com/news/slope-rating-new-golf-handicap-system/

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Additional Handicap Issue…
We also have an issue out with Gemma Hunter at England Golf (see You Tube - WHS) questioning our allocated slope index’s for the North East Course.
Off the White Tees we have been allocated 121
An average course in GB&I according to England Golf is 125
As the Pro’s in our PGA event in August failed over 2 days to break par, we are asking Gemma if indeed with have been assessed correctly.
Additionally looking at Slope Index’s of local courses, it is apparent either ours or their slope index’s are wrong.
We again await resolution.

That's part of the email


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Additional Handicap Issue…
We also have an issue out with Gemma Hunter at England Golf (see You Tube - WHS) questioning our allocated slope index’s for the North East Course.
Off the White Tees we have been allocated 121
An average course in GB&I according to England Golf is 125
As the Pro’s in our PGA event in August failed over 2 days to break par, we are asking Gemma if indeed with have been assessed correctly.
Additionally looking at Slope Index’s of local courses, it is apparent either ours or their slope index’s are wrong.
We again await resolution.

That's part of the email
		
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Irrelevant what the PGA pros scores in a single event and certainly wouldn’t judge against others - each course is judged in isolation. 

I can’t understand his rationale emailing out the members - if there is an issue with the course assessment then sort it out in the background. And is it just down to his own personal opinion that he thinks it’s harder ? Has he had a course assessor come round ? Did he go around with them ?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Irrelevant what the PGA pros scores in a single event and certainly wouldn’t judge against others - each course is judged in isolation.

I can’t understand his rationale emailing out the members - if there is an issue with the course assessment then sort it out in the background. And is it just down to his own personal opinion that he thinks it’s harder ? Has he had a course assessor come round ? Did he go around with them ?
		
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I have to admit I was shocked at our rating compared but I decided to research into how they rate them (ie we don't have water accross fairways etc or much to fire over)

Then yourself and rule fan explained slope isn't difficultly it's the difference between a scratch player and what a bogey player would score 

Plus if not s single pro broke par well our sss was 74 .. the winning score for the event over 2 days was level so if they didn't break par then suggests level both days .. which is 4 shots over 2 days lower than the sss?

Surely do a bit of research before firing off emails to the members .. notice my reply to him explaining about slope was ignore 🤣


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## Old Skier (Nov 28, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			IGs App allows this and it is part of the process. Mind when we were running the app in the summer there were a lot who failed to do it.
		
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We can do it as a home club but the HDID app doesn’t have the ability to select other clubs.


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## Old Skier (Nov 28, 2020)

Traminator said:



			As above, IG has the facility to pre-register for a "general play" round:
View attachment 33758
View attachment 33759

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Where is the ability to enter scores from an away club?


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## Old Skier (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Additional Handicap Issue…
We also have an issue out with Gemma Hunter at England Golf (see You Tube - WHS) questioning our allocated slope index’s for the North East Course.
Off the White Tees we have been allocated 121
An average course in GB&I according to England Golf is 125
As the Pro’s in our PGA event in August failed over 2 days to break par, we are asking Gemma if indeed with have been assessed correctly.
Additionally looking at Slope Index’s of local courses, it is apparent either ours or their slope index’s are wrong.
We again await resolution.

That's part of the email
		
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Average course is 125, were did that come from, it’s 115 according to the WHS information.


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## Old Skier (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I have to admit I was shocked at our rating compared but I decided to research into how they rate them (ie we don't have water accross fairways etc or much to fire over)

Then yourself and rule fan explained slope isn't difficultly it's the difference between a scratch player and what a bogey player would score

Plus if not s single pro broke par well our sss was 74 .. the winning score for the event over 2 days was level so if they didn't break par then suggests level both days .. which is 4 shots over 2 days lower than the sss?

Surely do a bit of research before firing off emails to the members .. notice my reply to him explaining about slope was ignore 🤣
		
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He obviously hasn’t taken all factors into consideration or he didn’t bother going to any of the WHS briefings.  our slope is greater than both Saunton courses and lower than Royal North Devon.

I doubt if anyone around here would say our course is harder than Saunton yet as a player, I find RND easier than ours.

Some people seem to take their course slope ratings as a personal slur.


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## Green Man (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I have to admit I was shocked at our rating compared but I decided to research into how they rate them (ie we don't have water accross fairways etc or much to fire over)

Then yourself and rule fan explained slope isn't difficultly it's the difference between a scratch player and what a bogey player would score

Plus if not s single pro broke par well our sss was 74 .. the winning score for the event over 2 days was level so if they didn't break par then suggests level both days .. which is 4 shots over 2 days lower than the sss?

Surely do a bit of research before firing off emails to the members .. notice my reply to him explaining about slope was ignore 🤣
		
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What are the course ratings? These should tell you which course is the most difficult.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

Green Man said:



			What are the course ratings? These should tell you which course is the most difficult.
		
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And since this was explained to me I check that now

Ours 74.2

Others I looked at 69.4


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## Foxholer (Nov 28, 2020)

Green Man said:



			What are the course ratings? These should tell you which course is the most difficult.
		
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Define 'difficult'! Par? Course Reting? Slope?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			He obviously hasn’t taken all factors into consideration or he didn’t bother going to any of the WHS briefings.  our slope is greater than both Saunton courses and lower than Royal North Devon.

I doubt if anyone around here would say our course is harder than Saunton yet as a player, I find RND easier than ours.

Some people seem to take their course slope ratings as a personal slur.
		
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I blame golf England for that a bit because they have made it so slope is only thing that works out your course handicap on the day 

I don't understand why we use the old handicap formula that USA used pre WHS when the majority of the world uses the new formula


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## Old Skier (Nov 28, 2020)

Foxholer said:



			Define 'difficult'!
		
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Ones where they have dress regs.


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2020)

the IG app is supposed to be developed for it to use GPS - so first it is only allowing you enter cards when at your home card but the plan for the APP is to use it for all clubs so you can put cards in


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## Liverpoolphil (Nov 28, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I'm sure they'll sort that out and iron out any bugs well in advance of the new handicap system coming in..... 🤔
		
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Yep it should be a nice smooth transition 👍


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## Swango1980 (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I have to admit I was shocked at our rating compared but I decided to research into how they rate them (ie we don't have water accross fairways etc or much to fire over)

Then yourself and rule fan explained slope isn't difficultly it's the difference between a scratch player and what a bogey player would score

Plus if not s single pro broke par well our sss was 74 .. the winning score for the event over 2 days was level so if they didn't break par then suggests level both days .. which is 4 shots over 2 days lower than the sss?

Surely do a bit of research before firing off emails to the members .. notice my reply to him explaining about slope was ignore 🤣
		
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Your handicap secretary seems to gave been misinformed, and sadly he sent out an email to all members committing himself to saying the slope was wrong, without any apparent knowledge as to what the slope is.

The fact scratch golfers struggle so much at your course actually lends itself to the possibility of having a low slope. Because, if it is tricky for them compared to most courses, but maybe not as relatively difficult for bogey golfers compared to other courses, then the relative difference between them is lower, thus lower slope. Still a difficult course, but it is the Course Rating (just like SSS before) that is the best number to look at when determining that absolute difficulty.

As others have said, so many people focus so much on Slope, and it would surprise me if most outside this forum simply think higher slope, harder course, end of. And if a course has a low slope, some take personal offence, hurts their pride, and try to tell anyone that listens it is wrong. I'd forgive them a bit, new system with more numbers to remember than the old one. But a handicap secretary should probably have had enough time by now to get a grasp of the basics.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Your handicap secretary seems to gave been misinformed, and sadly he sent out an email to all members committing himself to saying the slope was wrong, without any apparent knowledge as to what the slope is.

The fact scratch golfers struggle so much at your course actually lends itself to the possibility of having a low slope. Because, if it is tricky for them compared to most courses, but maybe not as relatively difficult for bogey golfers compared to other courses, then the relative difference between them is lower, thus lower slope. Still a difficult course, but it is the Course Rating (just like SSS before) that is the best number to look at when determining that absolute difficulty.

As others have said, so many people focus so much on Slope, and it would surprise me if most outside this forum simply think higher slope, harder course, end of. And if a course has a low slope, some take personal offence, hurts their pride, and try to tell anyone that listens it is wrong. I'd forgive them a bit, new system with more numbers to remember than the old one. But a handicap secretary should probably have had enough time by now to get a grasp of the basics.
		
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I sent him this
Hi xxx

I was looking into slope rating and confusion has reigned with how golf England has done the system. Slope isn't a rating of difficulty it's the difference between how a stratch golfer and bogey golfer would perform. So our slope could indeed be right because we punish stratch and bogey golfers equally. Also we don't have much water on course or fairway obstructions

What we in England are doing different from USA (and most of the world) is way we work out handicaps

We do slope/113 times index (the old way of doing things from the USA)

USA does the following now

Slope /113 times index plus (course rating - par)

Our course rating is 74.2 and our par is 72 (whites) which rates us much harder than courses in the local area. For example Brentwood is rated 69.4 off par 72 with slope 130 off yellows .. so mainly because of the course rating that we in England are incorrectly using

It's really frustrating that a world handicap system has been applied differently from the world lol

Hope this make sense lol it's taken me a while to get my head around this 


....

No reply 🤣


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Well at least you started off with some kisses 💋
		
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Keep it polite ... Can't say oi idiot your misinforming the entire club.


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## SammmeBee (Nov 28, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Yep it should be a nice smooth transition 👍
		
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I think it has been so far!


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

With all this stuff changing now 

What do I put on card for handicap? Do we just put our index and let the computer work it out.

Or do we have to work out then put that?


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## fenwayrich (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			With all this stuff changing now

What do I put on card for handicap? Do we just put our index and let the computer work it out.

Or do we have to work out then put that?
		
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The card has to show the Course Handicap. It can show Index and Playing Handicap but they are not obligatory.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

fenwayrich said:



			The card has to show the Course Handicap. It can show Index and Playing Handicap but they are not obligatory.
		
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So really in a comp we got to remember the 95% rule or whatever it is?

Lucky I use the app but many don't


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## IainP (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			So really in a comp we got to remember the 95% rule or whatever it is?

Lucky I use the app but many don't
		
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Do you really need to remember though?
Just record the gross scores, let the comp take care of itself 👍


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

IainP said:



			Do you really need to remember though?
Just record the gross scores, let the comp take care of itself 👍
		
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I'm thinking of those who don't use the app

So they show up and put their course handicap 

If they forget the 95 rule their course handicap is wrong no? There for a NR?


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## Old Skier (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I'm thinking of those who don't use the app

So they show up and put their course handicap

If they forget the 95 rule their course handicap is wrong no? There for a NR?
		
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As long as YOU PUT YOUR COURSE HC on the card, that is all that is required. If you want to put YOR PLAYING HC or INDEX on, it’s up to you.

From a HC Sec point of view I personally don’t care about points, just put down the Gross scores and leave the maths to others.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			As long as YOU PUT YOUR COURSE HC on the card, that is all that is required. If you want to put YOR PLAYING HC or INDEX on, it’s up to you
		
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Ah understood 

Course handicap .. and the computer will auto deduct the 95% for playing handicap


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## Old Skier (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			and the computer will auto deduct the 95% for playing handicap
		
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Providing the comp is set up properly


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Providing the comp is set up properly 

Click to expand...

Lol well let's see on that! If slope isn't understood let's see if the rest is


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## rulefan (Nov 28, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I sent him this
Hi xxx


We do slope/113 times index (the old way of doing things from the USA)

USA does the following now

Slope /113 times index plus (course rating - par)
		
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Please explain how  Par or (CR - par) has anything to do with difficulty? And how either of the formulae makes any difference to your Stroke Differential (in effect, your resultant Handicap Index.

From what I see, the only reason for (CR - Par) is the idea of 36 points telling you something. But that gets knocked on the head once you apply the 95%.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 28, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Please explain how  Par or (CR - par) has anything to do with difficulty? And how either of the formulae makes any difference to your Stroke Differential (in effect, your resultant Handicap Index.

From what I see, the only reason for (CR - Par) is the idea of 36 points telling you something. But that gets knocked on the head once you apply the 95%.
		
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Nothing to do with difficulty. Never said that the formula implies that 

Just how the different course handicaps are calculated.

Nothing to do with index either just pointing out the difference in the formula.

If you included all the email in your little snippet you would notice I said 
Our course rating is 74.2 and our par is 72 (whites) which rates us much harder than courses in the local area. For example Brentwood is rated 69.4 off par 72 with slope 130 off yellows ..

Still nobody has actually come up with a valid reason golf England think it's a good idea to not use Course rating in the course handicap formula when the rest of world does In a WORLD handicap system.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Nothing to do with difficulty. Never said that the formula implies that

Just how the different course handicaps are calculated.

Nothing to do with index either just pointing out the difference in the formula.

If you included all the email in your little snippet you would notice I said
Our course rating is 74.2 and our par is 72 (whites) which rates us much harder than courses in the local area. For example Brentwood is rated 69.4 off par 72 with slope 130 off yellows ..

Still nobody has actually come up with a valid reason golf England think it's a good idea to not use Course rating in the course handicap formula when the rest of world does In a WORLD handicap system.
		
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Actually, England Golf sent me quite a long email explaining why they didn't include CR-Par in the Course Handicap calculation. I'll not dig it out as it was quite some time ago, but one reason was to do with golfers picking up too early on a hole in a Stableford competition when there is a big difference between CR and Par.

I understand the confusion golfers will have though, when they dont get extra shots on courses that are obviously harder (even white tees on a course which could be a few shots harder than yellows, yet similar slope). So, I'm still not fully convinced CR-Par should be omitted.

At any rate, the difference in ability of all golfers is still accounted for regardless of the methodology, so it shouldn't fall over on the main aspect of handicaps. Different parts of the world have different variations, however handicaps are still compatible unlike before (can't imagine that will effect too many people though).


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Actually, England Golf sent me quite a long email explaining why they didn't include CR-Par in the Course Handicap calculation. I'll not dig it out as it was quite some time ago, but one reason was to do with golfers picking up too early on a hole in a Stableford competition when there is a big difference between CR and Par.

I understand the confusion golfers will have though, when they dont get extra shots on courses that are obviously harder (even white tees on a course which could be a few shots harder than yellows, yet similar slope). So, I'm still not fully convinced CR-Par should be omitted.

At any rate, the difference in ability of all golfers is still accounted for regardless of the methodology, so it shouldn't fall over on the main aspect of handicaps. Different parts of the world have different variations, however handicaps are still compatible unlike before (can't imagine that will effect too many people though).
		
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Fully correct in that last bit especially

I suspect golf England's reason is complete rubbish made up to support a decision that's been made rashly .. if it's a world handicap system it should be done the same full stop.

We have decided to be different for whatever reason and just adds a layer of confusion not needed 

When I raised the point on FB group I got shouted down that it's world handcap clue is in name it's all same 

Until I provided the evidence that it's different for us 

Suddenly two people changed tune the rest sloped back into the shadows


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## Swango1980 (Nov 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Fully correct in that last bit especially

I suspect golf England's reason is complete rubbish made up to support a decision that's been made rashly .. if it's a world handicap system it should be done the same full stop.

We have decided to be different for whatever reason and just adds a layer of confusion not needed

When I raised the point on FB group I got shouted down that it's world handcap clue is in name it's all same

Until I provided the evidence that it's different for us

Suddenly two people changed tune the rest sloped back into the shadows
		
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I guess the CR-Par bit is the major difference in terms of application. So, there is a major argument as to why doesn't the whole world just do the same thing. England Golf may have their reasoning, but does that mean they know more about it than the rest of the world? That would be quite an arrogant stance if it was taken. As we both agree, the inclusion of CR-Par would reduce confusion. Easy demonstration, a scratch golfer would get more shots at absolutely harder courses. Whereas now, they are off zero no matter the course. More than 90% of regular golfers, I suspect, would find that strange and confusing.

I'm also unsure why Scotland used Course Handicap to 1 decimal place, rest of UK to whole number. Again, why not just take a definitive position for the entire world?

In terms of submitting scores, there are differences in terms of what is and what isn't an Acceptable Round. I can sort of see the logic here, in terms of the mindset of golfers. It seems in USA they tend to hand in every score, make up a score if they pick up and to be frank, I reckon there are a few who have fairly dodgy handicaps as a result (they are represented by Trump, so if he is anything to go by....). In UK they obviously want to be more strict as to what sort of rounds truly represent a players handicap, and I personally agree with that. Although, I suspect over time we are more likely to tend towards the USA than them tend towards us in terms of what are Acceptable rounds.


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## rulefan (Nov 29, 2020)

It was never expected to be exactly the same all over the world. The original USGA and R&A announcements made that clear.
eg Scotland has decided to use the unrounded CH in calculating the PH. England, Wales & Ireland have chosen to use the rounded figure.


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## rulefan (Nov 29, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I understand the confusion golfers will have though, when they dont get extra shots on courses that are obviously harder (even white tees on a course which could be a few shots harder than yellows, yet similar slope).
		
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How does CR-Par show that a course is easier or harder?
A high or low par tells you nothing and is entirely arbitrary. It doesn't even tell you the length of the course.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I guess the CR-Par bit is the major difference in terms of application. So, there is a major argument as to why doesn't the whole world just do the same thing. England Golf may have their reasoning, but does that mean they know more about it than the rest of the world? That would be quite an arrogant stance if it was taken. As we both agree, the inclusion of CR-Par would reduce confusion. Easy demonstration, a scratch golfer would get more shots at absolutely harder courses. Whereas now, they are off zero no matter the course. More than 90% of regular golfers, I suspect, would find that strange and confusing.

I'm also unsure why Scotland used Course Handicap to 1 decimal place, rest of UK to whole number. Again, why not just take a definitive position for the entire world?

In terms of submitting scores, there are differences in terms of what is and what isn't an Acceptable Round. I can sort of see the logic here, in terms of the mindset of golfers. It seems in USA they tend to hand in every score, make up a score if they pick up and to be frank, I reckon there are a few who have fairly dodgy handicaps as a result (they are represented by Trump, so if he is anything to go by....). In UK they obviously want to be more strict as to what sort of rounds truly represent a players handicap, and I personally agree with that. Although, I suspect over time we are more likely to tend towards the USA than them tend towards us in terms of what are Acceptable rounds.
		
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It's just like everything we do in England ..we have to be world beating 😂 can never just use something that's successful elsewhere 


When my index came back it meant I play off same handicap I was playing off before at my course so was happy and made sense 

It was only when I at a look at easier courses (Cr of 69 and 70 when we are 74) and I was playing off 2 shots higher I was so confused 

But then I didn't stand a chance of understanding without research by reaching out on here (thanks to everyone) as our handicap hasn't even told us what to fill in the card on comps for example


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			How does CR-Par show that a course is easier or harder?
A high or low par tells you nothing and is entirely arbitrary. It doesn't even tell you the length of the course.
		
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Quite simple . If you course rating - par of a 74 you get 2 knowing that course is 2 harder than par .. a 69-72 is -3 so is 3 easier than par.


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## rulefan (Nov 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Quite simple . If you course rating - par of a 74 you get 2 knowing that course is 2 harder than par .. a 69-72 is -3 so is 3 easier than par.
		
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But par tells you nothing about difficulty. It is simply the sum of arbritary values given to individual holes. It doesn't tell you what a good or poor player should score. That is done by the CR.
Adding apples to oranges doesn't give more oranges.
Further, your overall playing performance (ie Index) is measured against the Course Ratings of courses you have played, not on the pars of those courses.

without +(CR-Par)
CR = 74 Par = 72. CH = is (say) 10

with +(CR-Par)
CR = 74 Par = 72. CH = is now 12

You score 82 gross. Which score would produce the lower differential?


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			But par tells you nothing about difficulty. It is simply the sum of arbritary values given to individual holes. It doesn't tell you what a good or poor player should score. That is done by the CR.
Adding apples to oranges doesn't give more oranges.
Further, your overall playing performance (ie Index) is measured against the Course Ratings of courses you have played, not on the pars of those courses.

without +(CR-Par)
CR = 74 Par = 72. CH = is (say) 10

with +(CR-Par)
CR = 74 Par = 72. CH = is now 12

You score 82 gross. Which score would produce the lower differential?
		
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We have been through this previous and you stated at course a (Cr 74) level is 34 points and course b (Cr 69) level would be 39

However as I stated than and I stand by. Whs should have been used to make the player score 36 more. Ie at course a give you more shots to achieve that and at course b give you less shots to achieve 36.

We have applied it backwards IMO.

Considering 90% of golfers think 36 is "level" and as you have said previously measure themsleves against that and not sss in the old days .. it would have made it less confusing to follow the whs elsewhere where it would bring it to 36 as level.

In your opinion its easy to follow and that level is what you should aim for but I can guarantee outside this forum (and other golf forums) very little people understand fully how the new or old system worked with sss and level 

So making golf simplier should have been the aim not making it the same .


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## Green Man (Nov 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			We have been through this previous and you stated at course a (Cr 74) level is 34 points and course b (Cr 69) level would be 39

*However as I stated than and I stand by. Whs should have been used to make the player score 36 more. Ie at course a give you more shots to achieve that and at course b give you less shots to achieve 36.*

We have applied it backwards IMO.

Considering 90% of golfers think 36 is "level" and as you have said previously measure themsleves against that and not sss in the old days .. it would have made it less confusing to follow the whs elsewhere where it would bring it to 36 as level.

In your opinion its easy to follow and that level is what you should aim for but I can guarantee outside this forum (and other golf forums) very little people understand fully how the new or old system worked with sss and level

So making golf simplier should have been the aim not making it the same .
		
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I couldn’t agree more with this. The way the system is currently confuses 90+% of golfers. You have a situation now where you have index, course cap then playing cap. You play in a Comp to your playing cap but then have to think about your course cap when playing so that you don’t pick up too early.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

Green Man said:



			I couldn’t agree more with this. The way the system is currently confuses 90+% of golfers. You have a situation now where you have index, course cap then playing cap. You play in a Comp to your playing cap but then have to think about your course cap when playing so that you don’t pick up too early.
		
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I wish I had never looked into it

Play dumb

Put down your score and let the pc do the work

Having an understanding has made it more confusing

It's like opening the eyes to the matrix 

Wish I'd taken the blue pill 

You take the blue pill...the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill...you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Nov 29, 2020)

I agree completely. Now imagine introducing a newcomer to the game. Not necessarily a youngster who's computer literate, but say a 50year old, who may be fairly up to speed. They would be saying, "I just want to hit some balls, not mess about with CR, CH, HI etc."
Who on earth designed a system that is almost guaranteed to put new players (and quite a few old players from what I've heard) off the game?
I feel as though we are disappearing down a dark hole with WHS.
This is page 104, and if it wasn't for rulefan and a few others, I wouldn't have a clue what's going on.
In addition, my whs platform has all our comps off the yellows, I'm still waiting to see the correction to whites.
It's a right old mess, which CSS and SSS catered for in the past. All I do understand out of the new system (thanks to rulefan), is that a course par is merely an addition of arbitrary values. That I understand. BUT, it WAS the same for everyone, and I used to accept that getting 30 points round Lytham St Anne's was pretty good, and 30 points round Skipton wasn't so special.


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## jim8flog (Nov 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			Quite simple . If you course rating - par of a 74 you get 2 knowing that course is 2 harder than par .. a 69-72 is -3 so is 3 easier than par.
		
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 One of things you have to remember that the par for a hole can be set by the golf club within a wide range of parameters so an identical hole on two different courses  may have different pars depending on how a particular committee sees it.

We have one hole on our course where the par has varied between 4 and 5 like a yoyo as the committee members have changed.


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## jim8flog (Nov 29, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Do you actually know one person in real life who has been "put off the game" ?
Really?

It's very easy to explain, we have a Handicap Index, this gets adjusted depending on the difficulty of the course, then we get a certain allowance depending on the format.
How on earth would that very simple explanation "put someone off the game"???

The implementation and transferring the data has obviously been horrendous, but that's separate to how it works.
		
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When we started to put out all the information about the WHS apparently the Club Manager received several complaints about our club introducing it and they intended to resign from the club when it was in force and join another club which was not doing it.


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## rosecott (Nov 29, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			When we started to put out all the information about the WHS apparently the Club Manager received several complaints about our club introducing it and they intended to resign from the club when it was in force and join another club which was not doing it.
		
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Where is he now, I wonder?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Nov 29, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			One of things you have to remember that the par for a hole can be set by the golf club within a wide range of parameters so an identical hole on two different courses  may have different pars depending on how a particular committee sees it.

We have one hole on our course where the par has varied between 4 and 5 like a yoyo as the committee members have changed.
		
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If golfers under the old system never understood Sss/css  and the relationship or lack of it to par they were never going to understand WHS with CR/HI/SR/BR and 95% allowance....


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Nov 29, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			When we started to put out all the information about the WHS apparently the Club Manager received several complaints about our club introducing it and they intended to resign from the club when it was in force and join another club which was not doing it.
		
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Traminator, I refer to jim8flog's post.
Yes, I DO know of people who have been put off wanting to play in competitions, they just want to play non competitive golf.
I actually wish to continue, and  hope things settle down. However, I don't want to trawl through the 104 pages in order to back up my argument, but there have been numerous posts from forum members who are less than impressed, and find it all unecessary.
It's when you hear of a 54 handicapper who is going to play off 60+ that I become somewhat flustered.
The theory that a 12 handicapper may not be a 12 handicapper at another course doesn't really wash with me, but "hey ho", it's here now.
I wonder if we will be discussing this in a year's time when (in theory, and here's hoping) things have settled down.


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## Junior (Nov 29, 2020)

Sorry if this has been covered / asked before. 

Can a player declare a general play round for handicap purposes (obviously before he tees off) at an away course ?


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## Swango1980 (Nov 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			How does CR-Par show that a course is easier or harder?
A high or low par tells you nothing and is entirely arbitrary. It doesn't even tell you the length of the course.
		
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Rulefan, I think you are missing the point here. I never said Par tells you how difficult the course is. I completely agree it is course rating.

However, when regular golfers play the game, who do not study how the handicap system works, the vast majority compare their score to par, or 36 points in Stableford. That is indisputable, whether one likes it or not.

If CR-Par was taken into account, this would account for BOTH Course Rating (difficulty of course) AND Par (whatever value was set by those setting up the course). So, courses with high course ratings ratings relative to par a golfer would get more shots on their course handicap, and vice versa.

This would make sense to the vast majority of golfers, and how it is done in other countries. We decided not to do it, because I'm assuming the UK know better?


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## Old Skier (Nov 29, 2020)

Junior said:



			Sorry if this has been covered / asked before.

Can a player declare a general play round for handicap purposes (obviously before he tees off) at an away course ?
		
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Yes


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## Foxholer (Nov 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			...

I suspect golf England's reason is complete rubbish made up to support a decision that's been made rashly .. if it's a world handicap system it should be done the same full stop.

We have decided to be different for whatever reason and just adds a layer of confusion not needed

When I raised the point on FB group I got shouted down that it's world handcap clue is in name it's all same

Until I provided the evidence that it's different for us

Suddenly two people changed tune the rest sloped back into the shadows
		
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It's a World-wide *applicable* Handixcap system. It contained options that each country could decide whether to implement or not - and CR-Par was one of those. US and France decided to use CR-Par; UK didn't.
The 'inventor' of the Slope system, Dean Knuth, is an advocate of simply using CR - which is at odds with the US implementation! FWIW, I can see advantages in both methods, but consider the (CR only) as slightly 'purer'!

To me, it doesn't matter which system is used. If you are playing a course *in UK* even with/against folks from France and/or US (and any other country that, you *both/all* *use your indices with the UK calculation;* if playing the same folk *in US, you all use your indices in their calculation.*


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## Junior (Nov 29, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Yes
		
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Thanks.   Can the scores be input anywhere on the EG app?  or, does the card have to go back to the home club to be processed?


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## rulefan (Nov 29, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			One of things you have to remember that the par for a hole can be set by the golf club within a wide range of parameters so an identical hole on two different courses  may have different pars depending on how a particular committee sees it.
		
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That's exactly my point
It can be as much as 40 yards on each hole. So a course could be 720 yards longer and still have the same par. A rough calculation suggests that a scratch player could need more than 3 strokes to play to par.


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## Foxholer (Nov 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			That's exactly my point
It can be as much as 40 yards on each hole.* So a course could be 720 yards longer and still have the same par*. A rough calculation suggests that a scratch player could need more than 3 strokes to play to par.
		
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It's highly unlikely to do so though! Do you know of ANY that are anywhere near (2/3rds+) that extra distance? Much more likely are the quite old ones (often in Scotland) that have had no room to extend, normally because housing has been the priority in the area and has 'surrounded' them! Quite a few Par 71/72s that were SSS of 68-ish - and prob a CR of that now too.
Most (relatively) newer courses had SSS (so probably CR) within 1 shot below to 2 or 3 above Par. It's a high Slope value that tends to distinguish the courses defined as 'tough' imo - reflecting the concept of why the system was devised (imo).


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 29, 2020)

Junior said:



			Thanks.   Can the scores be input anywhere on the EG app?  or, does the card have to go back to the home club to be processed?
		
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Currently it will have to be returned to the club but the intention is for it to be registered and scored at the course on which it is played to ensure the PCC gets calculated correctly. The ISVs need to update their software to allow this.


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## 3offTheTee (Nov 29, 2020)

Downloaded The EG app on my Ipad and everything is good. Shows HI and when I go to Course it shows all the details off white yellow etc and what my course handicap is.

Have done  same on my phone Samsung via android and it shows HI And ONLY Men’s white and yellow Par71 then a large 2 to the right but no other information.

Uninstalled and installed again but no change.

Any help would be appreciated


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## pauljames87 (Nov 29, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Currently it will have to be returned to the club but the intention is for it to be registered and scored at the course on which it is played to ensure the PCC gets calculated correctly. The ISVs need to update their software to allow this.
		
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How does this work ATM

Do you hand in the card at your home course or at the course played 

Who has to mark it? A member or anyone


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## Swango1980 (Nov 29, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			How does this work ATM

Do you hand in the card at your home course or at the course played

Who has to mark it? A member or anyone
		
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Some handicap secs could be getting a lot of extra work to do, with members returning away scores.

And, I wonder if there will be any evidence to a handicap sec that a player has pre-registered at an away course.


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## rosecott (Nov 29, 2020)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			Traminator, I refer to jim8flog's post.
Yes, I DO know of people who have been put off wanting to play in competitions, they just want to play non competitive golf.
I actually wish to continue, and  hope things settle down. However, I don't want to trawl through the 104 pages in order to back up my argument, but there have been numerous posts from forum members who are less than impressed, and find it all unecessary.
It's when you hear of a 54 handicapper who is going to play off 60+ that I become somewhat flustered.
The theory that a 12 handicapper may not be a 12 handicapper at another course doesn't really wash with me, but "hey ho", it's here now.
I wonder if we will be discussing this in a year's time when (in theory, and here's hoping) things have settled down.
		
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The aforementioned 12 handicapper playing at another course will be receiving the same shots as any other 12 handicapper - Home or Away player.


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## MrGrumtastic (Nov 29, 2020)

Traminator said:



			But seriously, who goes for a casual game at an away course and puts in a supplementary??? 

Has anyone actually ever done that? 

"Oh yeah, having a great awayday out with the  lads.. I know, I'll declare I'm putting in a card..."
		
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I fully intend to do that. As a player who is relatively new to a club, I only have a few scores in so far. I want to get in as many scores as possible in the short term to build a more representative HI. I often play away with a friend at his local course, so would be a good opportunity to add some scores.


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## Junior (Nov 29, 2020)

Traminator said:



			1...😉
		
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I'm with you.  I won't be doing it as I play enough competition golf at my home club.    However, i read that this is the way the new system is supposed to work.  The more cards you put in, the more accurate your handicap ?   

If you play a lot more golf away from your home course, then it may make a lot more sense to do so.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 29, 2020)

Traminator said:



			But seriously, who goes for a casual game at an away course and puts in a supplementary???

Has anyone actually ever done that?

"Oh yeah, having a great awayday out with the  lads.. I know, I'll declare I'm putting in a card..."
		
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4 of us tried to just before lockdown, but the away pro didn't know the procedure so we didn't bother. 

A lot of people play courses away from their home course, and I wouldn't be surprised if a reasonable number want their scores to count towards handicap. Especially those who don't play many club competitions.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 29, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Did you just try because you wanted to test the new system?

In reality it will be a tiny number even thinking about doing this, normally an awayday is just a bit of fun if it's not a comp.
		
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We just thought if we are playing golf, why not make it count. 3 of the guys would definitely hand them in every time, and they play quite a few away courses during the week.

At our Captains away weekend 3 years ago, all 24 people handed in their cards for both rounds, which was agreed before starting. 48 scores. Now, looking back they shouldn't have been, as no one was a member of the course. But, now that restriction is gone, I have no doubt everyone will hand in card again. It effectively becomes an away course qualifier / acceptable round

Also 2 guys who are always keen to hand in away cards as they play armed forces society days. And I'm sure lots of society golfers might be keen to hand in scores in future. My worry is they are pressured to do so after a good score, and home club handicap sec has no way of checking they pre registered at away course (which in this example they didn't)


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## Wabinez (Nov 29, 2020)

Traminator said:



			But seriously, who goes for a casual game at an away course and puts in a supplementary???

Has anyone actually ever done that?

"Oh yeah, having a great awayday out with the  lads.. I know, I'll declare I'm putting in a card..."
		
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100%. why wouldn’t you? aren’t you always trying to shoot your best score?

I’m going to Pinehurst next year, abd definitely will be looking to put a card or two in when over there


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## mikejohnchapman (Nov 29, 2020)

Traminator said:



			But seriously, who goes for a casual game at an away course and puts in a supplementary???

Has anyone actually ever done that?

"Oh yeah, having a great awayday out with the  lads.. I know, I'll declare I'm putting in a card..."
		
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I think it's a different way of doing things.

If I believe my friends from Australia and the USA it's the norm to return a card when playing - we are just used to the now redundant qualifier rule. I'm sure over time people will be more used to putting in a card when they play.


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## IanM (Nov 29, 2020)

Played a 2 man scramble yesterday. 

The allowance %s are clearly the random ramblings of a mad person.   I think it'll be Thursday or Friday before the result is posted


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## Wilson (Nov 29, 2020)

Traminator said:



			But seriously, who goes for a casual game at an away course and puts in a supplementary???

Has anyone actually ever done that?

"Oh yeah, having a great awayday out with the  lads.. I know, I'll declare I'm putting in a card..."
		
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I’ll be doing it Saturday, a few of my mates are spread around the country, add in the fact I can’t always play in the comps, and I’ll be doing it when I can.


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## pauljames87 (Nov 30, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			We just thought if we are playing golf, why not make it count. 3 of the guys would definitely hand them in every time, and they play quite a few away courses during the week.

At our Captains away weekend 3 years ago, all 24 people handed in their cards for both rounds, which was agreed before starting. 48 scores. Now, looking back they shouldn't have been, as no one was a member of the course. But, now that restriction is gone, I have no doubt everyone will hand in card again. It effectively becomes an away course qualifier / acceptable round

Also 2 guys who are always keen to hand in away cards as they play armed forces society days. And I'm sure lots of society golfers might be keen to hand in scores in future. My worry is they are pressured to do so after a good score, and home club handicap sec has no way of checking they pre registered at away course (which in this example they didn't)
		
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I'd hand in cards other courses on my society days was the idea ..so my handicap can improve or not whilst playing with those guys


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## IanM (Nov 30, 2020)

pauljames87 said:



			I'd hand in cards other courses on my society days was the idea ..so my handicap can improve or not whilst playing with those guys
		
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I've done that with good cards from a society day ... which is a competition of sorts..

...but wouldn't even think of it when out for a social game.   (I know its a shock to the Rules dudes, but some games happen without cards and pencils and even serious scoring)


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## pauljames87 (Nov 30, 2020)

IanM said:



			I've done that with good cards from a society day ... which is a competition of sorts..

...but wouldn't even think of it when out for a social game.   (I know its a shock to the Rules dudes, but some games happen without cards and pencils and even serious scoring)
		
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I want to start handing every round from my club , me and my mate try and play 3 times a month so want to put them in plus comps 

I'd be tempted when playing away cuz why not don't hurt but like you say some don't even use a card


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## Swango1980 (Nov 30, 2020)

IanM said:



			I've done that with good cards from a society day ... which is a competition of sorts..

...but wouldn't even think of it when out for a social game.   (I know its a shock to the Rules dudes, but some games happen without cards and pencils and even serious scoring)
		
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The term Casual Round is just an unfortunate term used in WHS and adopted at the moment by Club V1/ howdidido.  The proper wording used by Club V1 should be General Play. 

"I've done that with good cards from a society day". I'll not elaborate, but controversial. I wonder how your handicap sec checked for pre registration?


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## rulefan (Nov 30, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			The term Casual Round is just an unfortunate term used in WHS and adopted at the moment by Club V1/ howdidido.  The proper wording used by Club V1 should be General Play.

"I've done that with good cards from a society day". I'll not elaborate, but controversial. I wonder how your handicap sec checked for pre registration?
		
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Yes. The official Rules of Handicapping specifies General Play. The word 'casual' is not in the book.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 30, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Yes. The official Rules of Handicapping specifies General Play. The word 'casual' is not in the book.
		
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Not quite correct.

General Play is the main heading we should refer to. But, the definition of "General Play" states "A casual round". So, they have used Casual in the Manual, however I'm unsure why Club V1 have decided to use this term rather than simply General Play. Also, the use of the word Casual when defining General Play in the manual is, perhaps, not the greatest term to use.


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## IanM (Nov 30, 2020)

...I use the terms "casual, social, fun, mess about, a quick 9 after work" as they appear in the Oxford English Dictionary!   



Swango1980 said:



			"I've done that with good cards from a society day". I'll not elaborate, but controversial. I wonder how your handicap sec checked for pre registration?
		
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No offense taken, but this was just general remark "Pre-WHS"  He didn't check for "pre-registration."  There was no preregistration! (did it exist?)   Just me being "old school" and "doing the decent thing if I beat my handicap on a Soc Day.  That was always considered the thing to do where I learned to play...if you beat your handicap in a "comp"  - you handed it in.  This included Society Days, but not a social round with your mates. 
Similarly, if you played in an Open, there was no pre-reg, but some clubs sent the cards back to home clubs for recording.


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## jim8flog (Nov 30, 2020)

IanM said:



			...I use the terms "casual, social, fun, mess about, a quick 9 after work" as they appear in the Oxford English Dictionary!   



No offense taken, but this was just general remark "Pre-WHS"  He didn't check for "pre-registration."  There was no preregistration! (did it exist?)   Just me being "old school" and "doing the decent thing if I beat my handicap on a Soc Day.  That was always considered the thing to do where I learned to play...if you beat your handicap in a "comp"  - you handed it in.  This included Society Days, but not a social round with your mates.
Similarly, if you played in an Open, there was no pre-reg, but some clubs sent the cards back to home clubs for recording.
		
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Prior to the WHS

Rounds acceptable for handicap purposes had to be singles rounds in an organised competition home or away.  Clubs running opens would have uploaded to scores the other clubs via the CDH if they did not then you were required to notify your club of the score , good or bad.

or

A Supplementary Score at you home club and your club should have had a system in place for registering your intent to play one (as they will have to now).

Your club should not have been accepting score cards from Society days.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 30, 2020)

IanM said:



			...I use the terms "casual, social, fun, mess about, a quick 9 after work" as they appear in the Oxford English Dictionary!   



No offense taken, but this was just general remark "Pre-WHS"  He didn't check for "pre-registration."  There was no preregistration! (did it exist?)   Just me being "old school" and "doing the decent thing if I beat my handicap on a Soc Day.  That was always considered the thing to do where I learned to play...if you beat your handicap in a "comp"  - you handed it in.  This included Society Days, but not a social round with your mates.
Similarly, if you played in an Open, there was no pre-reg, but some clubs sent the cards back to home clubs for recording.
		
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Your club was very much mistaken. If a general round was to be acceptable for handicapping, it had to be pre-registered, so that the round counted no matter how well or badly the player played. Otherwise golfers could simply only hand in their good rounds, and get a handicap much lower than is appropriate.

I appreciate that this may not seem an issue to some. The problem with it, however, is that these players would then less likely make buffer in competitions, impact the CSS calculation and impact on everybody's handicap in the competition. The integrity of the handicapping system then fails, and in extreme circumstances remarkably so. There is one local club, where quite a few of the regulars meet up on a non-competition day to play a casual roll up. Any time anybody had a good score, they were told they must hand in the card (by the club officials). Therefore, most of the players who play competitions had ridiculously low handicaps (one guy left us, after playing off 15-17 for years. In 2 years of being there, he was off 9). Their competitions started getting more and more competitions with CSS being +1, +2, +3 and even +3 (with reductions only) much more often than one would expect, and had an impact on everybody.

Very extreme example, let us say that a club simply decided to give everybody a handicap of scratch, with the assumption that handicaps would increase to their natural level. Under the old system, every competition would be CSS=+3 (reductions only), and every player would stay off scratch for life.


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## IanM (Nov 30, 2020)

I'll tell the Sec to go and stand in the corner.   

At least we now have this more clearly defined so you can go in the pro-shop and ask to pre-register and have the assistant look at you blankly and say "eh?"


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Nov 30, 2020)

I'm probably wrong on this, (fairly frequent occurrence), but if we delve back over 100 pages on this thread, wasn't it being stated that EVERY round would count under WHS rules?
This was much to the chagrin of many of the casual golfers who entered in "roll ups". So what has changed?


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## Imurg (Nov 30, 2020)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			I'm probably wrong on this, (fairly frequent occurrence), but if we delve back over 100 pages on this thread, wasn't it being stated that EVERY round would count under WHS rules?
This was much to the chagrin of many of the casual golfers who entered in "roll ups". So what has changed?
		
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Every round CAN be used  - T&Cs apply.


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## sweaty sock (Nov 30, 2020)

I heard a rumour that scratch golfers wont be able to hand in cards unless from competition golf?  Is this a regional variation or does this come under some elite golfer stipulation


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## Wabinez (Nov 30, 2020)

sweaty sock said:



			I heard a rumour that scratch golfers wont be able to hand in cards unless from competition golf?  Is this a regional variation or does this come under some elite golfer stipulation
		
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false.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 30, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Every round CAN be used  - T&Cs apply.
		
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This statement is only true if your T&Cs state every round CANNOT be used. For example, match play cannot be used.


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## Swango1980 (Nov 30, 2020)

IanM said:



			I'll tell the Sec to go and stand in the corner.  

At least we now have this more clearly defined so you can go in the pro-shop and ask to pre-register and have the assistant look at you blankly and say "eh?"
		
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I don't criticise the individual golfer for handing in good cards, as they are probably not aware of the implications. Therefore, to them, they are doing the honourable thing. But, I criticise the handicap secretary who allows this to happen, as they should be more informed. This was explicitly stated in the CONGU manual. 

I'm also with you in pre-registration under WHS. Unless there is a robust method that can be implemented consistently, regardless of whether you are playing at your home course or not, I can see it being really difficult in any club official being fairly certain pre-registration has happened or not. I also don't see why golfers can't just sit at home and enter a score without ever playing, and that updating their handicap for the next day (at least before, their score had to be signed off by a club official before being added to their handicap record). There is a lot about general golf rounds that makes me a little nervous as a handicap secretary.


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## IanM (Nov 30, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			I'm also with you in pre-registration under WHS. Unless there is a robust method that can be implemented consistently, regardless of whether you are playing at your home course or not, I can see it being really difficult in any club official being fairly certain pre-registration has happened or not
		
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Yep... I missed a trick yesterday.  Went down to Machynys with a pro and some serious golfers.  I should have asked if I can pre-register... wonder what would have happened?  At my Club, Nov-Feb we have no qualifiers at all... wonder what would happen if I asked them to record my card from the "Saturday Swindle?"   I genuinely have no idea what the response would be. 

Maybe my views are out of line with the "official thinking" but I've always drawn a clear line between competitions and "other golf."  EG.. on a day out with the pro and some mates, fivers in the hat - absolutely no intention (or requirement in my view) to be putting a card in.  Eg when is a someone it a foot from the hole, knock it back to them.  I'm at my laptop all week working, this is recreation.  

Saturday morning at the club, and Open comps etc "different gravy."   Full rules, cards and pencils.  No confusion.


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## patricks148 (Nov 30, 2020)

No scores over this winter for us, had an email this morning saying that no qual scores as we would now be on a an unrated course, even though we are off the blue tee??


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## Swango1980 (Nov 30, 2020)

IanM said:



			Yep... I missed a trick yesterday.  Went down to Machynys with a pro and some serious golfers.  I should have asked if I can pre-register... wonder what would have happened?  At my Club, Nov-Feb we have no qualifiers at all... wonder what would happen if I asked them to record my card from the "Saturday Swindle?"   I genuinely have no idea what the response would be.

Maybe my views are out of line with the "official thinking" but I've always drawn a clear line between competitions and "other golf."  EG.. on a day out with the pro and some mates, fivers in the hat - absolutely no intention (or requirement in my view) to be putting a card in.  Eg when is a someone it a foot from the hole, knock it back to them.  I'm at my laptop all week working, this is recreation. 

Saturday morning at the club, and Open comps etc "different gravy."   Full rules, cards and pencils.  No confusion.
		
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I agree with this to a large extent, I always felt handicaps are most important in an official competition when the pressure is on, and prizes are at stake. Playing in a social round is massively different to many from a mental standpoint, and golf has a lot do do with a players mental state. By allowing social rounds to be entered, it can have a number of issues. A player who panics when the pressure is on, may get a much lower handicap because their social rounds are knocking it down, only to do even worse in competitions.  Or, a player who really focuses and dials in during competitions, may be subconsciously less motivated during casual golf, and maybe try some risky things for practice they would never dream of in an official competition. Their casual golf may push their handicap upwards, and they get a real benefit in competitive golf.

Also, who wants to go out on a Friday with their mate, submit a fantastic round for a big handicap cut, only to be a few shots worse off for an official competition on a Saturday? I appreciate some have the respectable goal of simply getting as low a handicap as possible. But, the whole point in having a handicap is to be competitive against other golfers. So, many would rather be rewarded in having handicap cuts when they do well under pressure, rather than during a round that no one really cares about.

That aside, the above only really applies to those that play a decent number of competitions. General Play rounds are good for those that don't play many comps. So, I still expect quite a few will start entering these compared to previously, due to there being less restrictions and the technology making it easier, at least for your home course for now.


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## Old Skier (Nov 30, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Did you just try because you wanted to test the new system?

In reality it will be a tiny number even thinking about doing this, normally an awayday is just a bit of fun if it's not a comp.
		
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I’m going to do it next week to see how the system works with a few of the lads. Relatively easy for me as I have spoken to the club I’m going to and they know I’m a HC Sec.

Something I’m looking at is for the visited club should initial/sign cards prior to going out.


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## sweaty sock (Nov 30, 2020)

Theres still a bit to run in this isnt there.


I cant be the only one whos disheartened.




Swango1980 said:



			I agree with this to a large extent, I always felt handicaps are most important in an official competition when the pressure is on, and prizes are at stake. Playing in a social round is massively different to many from a mental standpoint, and golf has a lot do do with a players mental state. By allowing social rounds to be entered, it can have a number of issues. A player who panics when the pressure is on, may get a much lower handicap because their social rounds are knocking it down, only to do even worse in competitions.  Or, a player who really focuses and dials in during competitions, may be subconsciously less motivated during casual golf, and maybe try some risky things for practice they would never dream of in an official competition. Their casual golf may push their handicap upwards, and they get a real benefit in competitive golf.

Also, who wants to go out on a Friday with their mate, submit a fantastic round for a big handicap cut, only to be a few shots worse off for an official competition on a Saturday? I appreciate some have the respectable goal of simply getting as low a handicap as possible. But, the whole point in having a handicap is to be competitive against other golfers. So, many would rather be rewarded in having handicap cuts when they do well under pressure, rather than during a round that no one really cares about.

That aside, the above only really applies to those that play a decent number of competitions. General Play rounds are good for those that don't play many comps. So, I still expect quite a few will start entering these compared to previously, due to there being less restrictions and the technology making it easier, at least for your home course for now.
		
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This gets at the point of the whs, and its main failings....

It was billed as the play anywhere against anybody.  But what it actually is, is a system that enables everyone to maintain a handicap, no matter what form or style of golf they play. 

So now every single player can have and maintain their handicap.

What it fails to do, is make any attempt to make those handicaps compatible or comparable.  Even between players at the same club. 

Misses the mark for me


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Nov 30, 2020)

sweaty sock said:



			Theres still a bit to run in this isnt there.


I cant be the only one whos disheartened.



This gets at the point of the whs, and its main failings....

It was billed as the play anywhere against anybody.  But what it actually is, is a system that enables everyone to maintain a handicap, no matter what form or style of golf they play.

So now every single player can have and maintain their handicap.

What it fails to do, is make any attempt to make those handicaps compatible or comparable.  Even between players at the same club.

Misses the mark for me
		
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Hooray, someone who is on the same wavelength as me!! Thank you sweatysock!!


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## sunshine (Dec 1, 2020)

rulefan said:



*It was never expected to be exactly the same all over the world. *The original USGA and R&A announcements made that clear.
eg Scotland has decided to use the unrounded CH in calculating the PH. England, Wales & Ireland have chosen to use the rounded figure.
		
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That statement is crazy. Why have a WORLD handicapping system if it's different in every country? Sounds moronic.


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## sunshine (Dec 1, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			One of things you have to remember that the par for a hole can be set by the golf club within a wide range of parameters so an identical hole on two different courses  may have different pars depending on how a particular committee sees it.

We have one hole on our course where the par has varied between 4 and 5 like a yoyo as the committee members have changed.
		
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Exactly! So this hole is a tough par 4 or an easy par 5?


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## sunshine (Dec 1, 2020)

rulefan said:



			But par tells you nothing about difficulty. *It is simply the sum of arbritary values given to individual holes. It doesn't tell you what a good or poor player should score. *That is done by the CR.
Adding apples to oranges doesn't give more oranges.
Further, your overall playing performance (ie Index) is measured against the Course Ratings of courses you have played, not on the pars of those courses.

without +(CR-Par)
CR = 74 Par = 72. CH = is (say) 10

with +(CR-Par)
CR = 74 Par = 72. CH = is now 12

You score 82 gross. Which score would produce the lower differential?
		
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Back to this old chestnut.

For someone who has such encylopaedic knowledge of the game and the rules (and by the way I really appreciate your informed contributions on this forum!), I really don't understand how you ignore the concept of par.

Par has a meaning. It is the expected number of shots that a "good" player should take to complete a hole. Par has been around a lot longer than CR or SSS and it means a lot more in the game than those technical abbreviations.

There is some subjectivity in par. Some holes it's easier to achieve par than others. That's why some courses are easier than others. People measure their score against par so a round of 5 over par (for example) is a better score on a tough course than an easy course.


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## IanM (Dec 1, 2020)

sunshine said:



			Exactly! So this hole is a tough par 4 or an easy par 5?
		
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Precisely ..Eg 18th at Newport.  Easy par 5 (stroke index 17)   - would make a cracking tough par 4.  Mind you, the long hitters think it is!


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## Swango1980 (Dec 1, 2020)

sunshine said:



			Back to this old chestnut.

For someone who has such encylopaedic knowledge of the game and the rules (and by the way I really appreciate your informed contributions on this forum!), I really don't understand how you ignore the concept of par.

Par has a meaning. It is the expected number of shots that a "good" player should take to complete a hole. Par has been around a lot longer than CR or SSS and it means a lot more in the game than those technical abbreviations.

There is some subjectivity in par. Some holes it's easier to achieve par than others. That's why some courses are easier than others. People measure their score against par so a round of 5 over par (for example) is a better score on a tough course than an easy course.
		
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Although I understand Rulefans statement regarding CR and Par, I don't think it is relevant to the original point that he was responding to. I also agree with sunshine, that Par has a meaning to probably 99% of golfers and no doubt the majority will compare their score to par, and will have no concept of CR just like they had no concept of SSS/CSS.

The main argument was, why wasn't CR-Par included in the UK, unlike other countries? I know England Golf had reasons to give, but overall I think it just confuses golfers when simply think their handicaps should change based on the absolute difficulty of the course, and they struggle more to visualise relative difficulty. My course is an easy example, where whites are definitely harder than yellows, with CR being 2.6 shots higher on whites. However, the slope on whites is 133 compared to 130 on yellows, so by and large golfers have the same course handicap on both courses, or perhaps 1 more shot on the whites depending on rounding. This is a puzzling concept to many, and many will automatically think the Slope is wrong and should be much higher on whites (it is not inconceivable that the slope on whites could actually be lower than yellows, despite having a higher course rating).

However, CR-Par would eliminate this issue. Course A, Par=72, CR=69, Slope = 130. Course B, Par=72, CR=75, Slope=130

Currently in UK, a 0 Indexer plays off 0 on both courses. If CR-Par used, a 0 Indexer plays off -3 at Course A, and off 3 at Course B. That is so much easier to understand.

My Course, Yellows Par=70, CR=66.8, Slope=130. Whites Par=70, CR=69.4, Slope=133

My Index is 8.7, so my Course Handicap is 10 off both yellows and whites. If CR-Par was used, I would have a course handicap of 6.8 (7) off yellows, and a course handicap of 9.6 (10) off whites. To me, that makes entirely more sense to most golfers, as it takes into account BOTH the absolute difficulty of the course and the RELATIVE difficulty for low and high handicappers. Golfers no longer need to evaluate their nett score to the CR when determining how they played relative to handicap, they can compare to par / 36 points.


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## sunshine (Dec 1, 2020)

IanM said:



			Precisely ..Eg 18th at Newport.  Easy par 5 (stroke index 17)   - would make a cracking tough par 4.  Mind you, the long hitters think it is! 

Click to expand...

I often hear the commentators on tour say that this long par 4 plays as a par 5 for the members (e.g. 1st at Wentworth). There is a really good reason why they do this, par has a meaning!


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## Swango1980 (Dec 1, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Can someone tell me off the top of their head what DJ's winning score was in the Masters?
		
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-20


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## jim8flog (Dec 1, 2020)

sunshine said:



			Exactly! So this hole is a tough par 4 or an easy par 5?
		
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 It very much depends on daily weather circumstances and time of the year. I have played it as 3 iron off the tee and wedge in to the green similarly I have played it as driver, 3 wood and mid/short iron.

Has been a par 4 for some years now. It is stroke 1 (difficulty) and the times I shoot  par on it these days would be around 5%-10% of rounds.


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## sunshine (Dec 1, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Although I understand Rulefans statement regarding CR and Par, I don't think it is relevant to the original point that he was responding to. I also agree with sunshine, that Par has a meaning to probably 99% of golfers and no doubt the majority will compare their score to par, and will have no concept of CR just like they had no concept of SSS/CSS.

The main argument was, why wasn't CR-Par included in the UK, unlike other countries? I know England Golf had reasons to give, but overall I think it just confuses golfers when simply think their handicaps should change based on the absolute difficulty of the course, and they struggle more to visualise relative difficulty. My course is an easy example, where whites are definitely harder than yellows, with CR being 2.6 shots higher on whites. However, the slope on whites is 133 compared to 130 on yellows, so by and large golfers have the same course handicap on both courses, or perhaps 1 more shot on the whites depending on rounding. This is a puzzling concept to many, and many will automatically think the Slope is wrong and should be much higher on whites (it is not inconceivable that the slope on whites could actually be lower than yellows, despite having a higher course rating).

However, CR-Par would eliminate this issue. Course A, Par=72, CR=69, Slope = 130. Course B, Par=72, CR=75, Slope=130

Currently in UK, a 0 Indexer plays off 0 on both courses. If CR-Par used, a 0 Indexer plays off -3 at Course A, and off 3 at Course B. That is so much easier to understand.

My Course, Yellows Par=70, CR=66.8, Slope=130. Whites Par=70, CR=69.4, Slope=133

My Index is 8.7, so my Course Handicap is 10 off both yellows and whites. If CR-Par was used, I would have a course handicap of 6.8 (7) off yellows, and a course handicap of 9.6 (10) off whites. To me, that makes entirely more sense to most golfers, as it takes into account BOTH the absolute difficulty of the course and the RELATIVE difficulty for low and high handicappers. Golfers no longer need to evaluate their nett score to the CR when determining how they played relative to handicap, they can compare to par / 36 points.
		
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Thanks. This post is really helpful.

I didn't realise there was such a fundamental difference. So the whole world has adopted one methodology and England is following another? Crazy!

I thought the key objective of the WHS was to align handicaps:
1. so that the handicap reflected the difficulty of the course where it was obtained
2. so that golfers received more shots on harder courses and fewer on easy courses

What has been delivered doesn't seem to meet either of those objectives.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 1, 2020)

sunshine said:



			Thanks. This post is really helpful.

I didn't realise there was such a fundamental difference. So the whole world has adopted one methodology and England is following another? Crazy!

I thought the key objective of the WHS was to align handicaps:
1. so that the handicap reflected the difficulty of the course where it was obtained
2. so that golfers received more shots on harder courses and fewer on easy courses

What has been delivered doesn't seem to meet either of those objectives.
		
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-6 (I love Google)


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## sunshine (Dec 1, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Can someone tell me off the top of their head what DJ's winning score was in the Masters?
		
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I asked the same question and had this same debate with Rulefan on another thread! Actually it might have even been this thread.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 1, 2020)

sunshine said:



			Thanks. This post is really helpful.

I didn't realise there was such a fundamental difference. So the whole world has adopted one methodology and England is following another? Crazy!

I thought the key objective of the WHS was to align handicaps:
1. so that the handicap reflected the difficulty of the course where it was obtained
2. so that golfers received more shots on harder courses and fewer on easy courses

What has been delivered doesn't seem to meet either of those objectives.
		
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When you listen to the general statements, WHS very much is sold as giving a player a course handicap based on the difficulty of the course. Most golfers understand that to mean the absolute difficulty of the course. However, if you listen to the wording carefully, or the caveats that follows, it is the difficulty of the course RELATIVE to other handicappers. Before WHS, so many people, even experienced golfers, simply did not understand SSS. So, they couldn't grasp the fact that a golfer from one course could fairly compete with a golfer from another of much different difficulty (albeit, relative difference was not accounted for). With WHS, virtually every club golfer I have spoken to think that this is no longer a concern, and that they will get loads more shots at absolutely more difficult courses. This then leads to complaints that the Slopes are too low/high, because they have no understanding that slope is only relative difficulty between low and high handicappers, rather than the absolute difficulty of the courses.

As a handicap secretary, I firmly believe I will spend much more time over the years of WHS trying to explain this to golfers, and that they need to compare their score to CR, not par. Much more time than I had to explain the concept of SSS.

Whether CR-Par is used or not, the system will still operate fairly for competing golfers, because if CR-Par is used, it is used equally for all golfers, so it just scales up or down everyones final score by an absolute amount (albeit rounding differences could have an impact on relative difference). I was just surprised the UK didn't apply this, as I think it saves so much confusion, especially when other nations are using it.


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## Imurg (Dec 1, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Can someone tell me off the top of their head what DJ's winning score was in the Masters?
		
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Level par I heard..


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## sweaty sock (Dec 1, 2020)

(Removed out of context rant...)


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## IainP (Dec 1, 2020)

sunshine said:



			Thanks. This post is really helpful.

I didn't realise there was such a fundamental difference. So the whole world has adopted one methodology and England is following another? Crazy!

I thought the key objective of the WHS was to align handicaps:
1. so that the handicap reflected the difficulty of the course where it was obtained
2. so that golfers received more shots on harder courses and fewer on easy courses

What has been delivered doesn't seem to meet either of those objectives.
		
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Why are you singling out England?


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## sunshine (Dec 1, 2020)

IainP said:



			Why are you singling out England?
		
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Because we were talking about England. What other countries have decided to go their own way?


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## Swango1980 (Dec 1, 2020)

sunshine said:



			Because we were talking about England. What other countries have decided to go their own way?
		
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All UK countries do not use the CR-Par. Not sure what other countries do the same. USA include CR-Par.

What interests me is that, for the World Handicap System, I thought there would be one overall document for the WHS Rules of Handicapping, that was exactly the same worldwide. Then, there would be an associated document for each handicapping authority (such as Congu, USGA, etc) that highlighted all their variations. Both documents for the UK can be found on the CONGU website.

However, in the main WHS document on CONGU, the Course handicap is shown as Index x Slope/113. No mention of CR-Par. So, I assumed that the UK must be sticking to the WHS guidelines, and the USA are the ones that are doing their own thing, which would be reported on their associated regional document. However, I've just gone onto the USGA website to look at their main WHS document. Exactly the same format for the one on CONGU, but they show CR-Par in the Course Handicap calculation.

So, the Main WHS Rules of Handicapping document is actually different in different parts of the world. I am very surprised by that. If you read the one on the CONGU site, the opening pages clearly show it is an R&A / USGA joint document. However, if someone from the USA opened up our document, they would be given the wrong course handicap calculation, and vice versa. I cannot see anywhere on the document that says the information applies only to certain parts of the world. 

*Gone on to Golf Australia website, and their WHS document is completely different to ours, unless it is published somewhere less obvious on their website. They do not even seem to use the terms Handicap Index, Course Handicap or Playing Handicap. They have a GA handicap (which I think is their Index) and a Daily Handicap (handicap to be used in competition. The Daily Handicap Calculation = ((GA Handicap x Slope / 113) + (Scratch Rating - Par)) x 0.93. This is truly less like a World Handicap System than I first thought. *


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## sweaty sock (Dec 1, 2020)

Serious question then.  When someone from the UK goes to (insert other country), do they just take their HI and apply the playing handicap adjustment as is relevant in the host country?


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## Swango1980 (Dec 1, 2020)

sweaty sock said:



			Serious question then.  When someone from the UK goes to (insert other country), do they just take their HI and apply the playing handicap adjustment as is relevant in the host country?
		
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Yeah. It should at the very least be compatible. So, you go to USA and CR-Par will be factored into the Course Handicap calculation, unlike here. You go to Australia, your Index is called a GA Handicap (and Course Rating is called Scratch Rating). It looks like in Australia, their Playing Handicap and Course Handicap are merged into one, the Daily Handicap. And this is effectively always equivalent to 93% our Course Handicap (but they also use CR-Par). This will be used in singles stroke play or match play


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## Swango1980 (Dec 1, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I'm actually getting pretty depressed about my screwed up handicap and I'm currently in an email chain with my club, County and EG, all fobbing me off.

I'm absolutely certain the county have not had a clue what they were doing when transferring data from scores this year.

So to check I'm not going nuts 🤪, here's some numbers if anyone wants to say what they think the Differentials should be:

Round 1:
CR 71.5
SSS 72
CSS 73
Score 70
113/125 = 0.9.

Round 2:
CR 71.3
SSS 72
CSS 72
Score 72
113/125 = 0.9

Thanks 😕
		
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Round 1, Score Differential = (70-71.5-1) x 113/125 = -2.3

Round 2, Score Differential = (72-71.3-0) x 113/125 = 0.6

I assumed the first round had a PCC of +1 due to CSS. I also assumed your scores had nothing worse than nett double bogey.

I assume that each round was on a different course (due to CR being different), and it is a coincidence the Slope is the same (125)?


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## jim8flog (Dec 1, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Level par I heard..

Click to expand...

Is that Based upon De Chams view of what par was


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## jim8flog (Dec 1, 2020)

sunshine said:



			Because we were talking about England. What other countries have decided to go their own way?
		
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 Scotland and Ireland with some of the aspects.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 1, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Is that Based upon De Chams view of what par was
		
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I thought it was 41pts with a blob!


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## Swango1980 (Dec 1, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Thanks, I completely agree so I haven't gone nuts.

Assumptions all correct, although the Slopes were actually 128 and 131 but the county tell me they had to use 125 for some reason 🤷‍♂️, and it works out to 0.9 anyway so I'll let that ride....

So here's what I'm up against as this is what shows on my record 😳

Round 1
Score 70
CR 73
PCC 2 (they've used the wrong SSS of 71 on the downloadable Away Score letter)
Differential -4.5 (-5 x 0.9)

Round 2
Score 72
CR 72
PCC 1 (using wrong SSS again)
Differential -0.9 (-1 x 0.9).

So these 2 scores are combining for a differential of -5.4, when actually they should be -1.7.

This has resulted in the total Differential being 3.7 lower than it should be, divided by 7 (19 scores in) means my hcap is 0.5 too low.

I know this doesn't sound much to some, but going from 1 to +1 is ridiculous, and I shouldn't be punished just because someone who's job it is to input my scores doesn't know what they're doing.

1 more score in and I'm up to 8 counting, 1 more after that and an equal best 69 drops off so if the above mess gets corrected I should be somewhere near what it was before.
		
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Well, sounds like the Course Rating and PCC numbers used in reality, and what WHS has used are very different. Why have they been unable to put the real numbers in? At your handicap level I'd imagine even small differences are more significant. A difference in 0.5 shots for a 30 handicapper is nothing due to their variability, but to a very low handicapper it would be felt more due to their consistency (not that I've ever been that low, a 6 CONGU handicap is my best)


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## rulefan (Dec 1, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I'm actually getting pretty depressed about my screwed up handicap and I'm currently in an email chain with my club, County and EG, all fobbing me off.

I'm absolutely certain the county have not had a clue what they were doing when transferring data from scores this year.

So to check I'm not going nuts 🤪, here's some numbers if anyone wants to say what they think the Differentials should be:

Round 1:
CR 71.5
SSS 72
CSS 73
Score 70
113/125 = 0.9.

Round 2:
CR 71.3
SSS 72
CSS 72
Score 72
113/125 = 0.9

Thanks 😕
		
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The county had no part in transferring pre Nov scores from the CDH to the WHS. This was done by England Golf using DotGolf software.

The transition program did not use CR (a decimal value) as this was not in the CDH data. The SSS (integer) was used instead of CR. 
The difference between the CSS and the SSS was used as the PCC.

It would seem that the course details had not been passed correctly to EG as CR = 72 and SR = 125 are the default values used when the transition program cannot find the correct course/tees.

It may be 
1) your course has not yet been rated under the new system or 
2) your club manager did not respond to the EH letter requesting confirmation of course details (even though the course may have been rated in the last couple of years) or 
3) EG did not process the info from your manager.
Most issues re 72/125 fall into the first or second of the above. The last is unusual and relatively rare.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 1, 2020)

Traminator said:



			All my scores from competitions at my home club are showing exactly correct, ie CR 71.5, Slope 128 and PCC as difference between CSS and SSS(72) where applicable.

The 2 scores that are wildly out were run by the County, ironically 1 of them at my home club. 

This is a 69, CR 71.5, CSS 72 round my home course, the differential is -2.2:
View attachment 33811


This is a 70 round the same course, CR 71.5, CSS up 1 to 73, adjusted CR 72.5, but the differential is showing as -4.5..!!
View attachment 33812


If the club comps have the correct info showing, how can the county have it so far out unless they've just totally cocked it up?
		
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Definitely a cock up somewhere, especially if the course has the right data for WHS. I presume everything looked OK when the scores were processed under CONGU. I wonder if similar issues would occur to players playing in away qualifiers run by clubs?


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## rulefan (Dec 1, 2020)

Traminator said:



			If the club comps have the correct info showing, how can the county have it so far out unless they've just totally cocked it up?
		
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Ah, you didn't say it was a county run comp.
If the county are not actually using the host club's ISV they may not have passed the correct course details through to EG. 
I don't know if your county normally uses its own ISV or that of the club hosting the comp but that may well in fact be at the heart of the problem.
But the CDH (the source of the WHS input) should give a clue. Has your club shown you just what the CDH shows?


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## rulefan (Dec 1, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I would have thought that by me providing the exact correct numbers, someone could just go in and correct it in a couple of minutes.
		
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They probably could if there wasn't such a large backlog of individual issues.


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## rulefan (Dec 1, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I'm all ears, but what do you mean?
		
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I'll PM you.


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## IanMcC (Dec 8, 2020)

Can I ask how Winter Leagues are adjusting their winter handicaps under WHS? 
Our league reduces HI by 0.1 for each stableford point over 30 (15 hole comps), and increases it by 0.1 for each point under 30, but you cannot have a higher HI than what you started the winter season at.
Another league at our club reduce the index by 0.25 for each shot under 36 (18 holes), and a full 1.0 if they win a weekly pot. There are no increases.
All of our winter comps are not acceptable for official handicap changes.
Any thoughts on either of these methods, or anything that you use, would be most welcome.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 8, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Can I ask how Winter Leagues are adjusting their winter handicaps under WHS?
Our league reduces HI by 0.1 for each stableford point over 30 (15 hole comps), and increases it by 0.1 for each point under 30, but you cannot have a higher HI than what you started the winter season at.
Another league at our club reduce the index by 0.25 for each shot under 36 (18 holes), and a full 1.0 if they win a weekly pot. There are no increases.
All of our winter comps are not acceptable for official handicap changes.
Any thoughts on either of these methods, or anything that you use, would be most welcome.
		
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Can you not just continue doing exactly the same thing as you did before. It is unofficial, so doesn't need to follow the WHS procedure. And, if you are always playing on the same course, taking into account course difficulty will not be an issue.


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## IanMcC (Dec 8, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Can you not just continue doing exactly the same thing as you did before. It is unofficial, so doesn't need to follow the WHS procedure. And, if you are always playing on the same course, taking into account course difficulty will not be an issue.
		
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We took the decision at week 1 that we wanted to fully break away from CONGU, and embrace the WHS as much as we can.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 8, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			We took the decision at week 1 that we wanted to fully break away from CONGU, and embrace the WHS as much as we can.
		
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The Congu way was easier for your winter comps, as you only need to adjust the handicap as each score comes in. You do not need to remember historical scores.

If you want to embrace WHS as much as possible, you could set up a spreadsheet, where you record each players score. Get it to pick out their best 8 scores from 20. You probably won't even need to de-slope the scores, as you are playing the same course anyway. So, work out an appropriate Course Rating for the 15 holes if possible. Compare each players adjusted gross score to this Course Rating. Their course handicap will be the average of the lowest 8 gross differentials. Their playing handicap will be 95% of this.


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## IanMcC (Dec 8, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			The Congu way was easier for your winter comps, as you only need to adjust the handicap as each score comes in. You do not need to remember historical scores.

If you want to embrace WHS as much as possible, you could set up a spreadsheet, where you record each players score. Get it to pick out their best 8 scores from 20. You probably won't even need to de-slope the scores, as you are playing the same course anyway. So, work out an appropriate Course Rating for the 15 holes if possible. Compare each players adjusted gross score to this Course Rating. Their course handicap will be the average of the lowest 8 gross differentials. Their playing handicap will be 95% of this.
		
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All good ideas, but not really practical for season 1. We only play on a Sunday, and with restrictions this year we only have 18 weeks to play. We count our best 7 and worst 1 to work out the winner, so maybe this could be a starting point for next years handicaps.


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## sweaty sock (Dec 8, 2020)

The whole purpose of the WHS is that you enter all your scores (winter, 9 holes, 15 holes etc etc).  And it calculates a fair handicap?  So why not just plug it in and use it.

As your club have backed away from this i would say that without manually managing it your much better of sticking with what has worked?


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## Bdill93 (Dec 8, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Not true.
		
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Half true though. The idea was that you submit as many scores as possible so the handicap reflects your current playing ability. Doesnt mean everyones doing that, but it was the aim!


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## sweaty sock (Dec 8, 2020)

The more accurate you want your handicap to be, then the more scores you should enter?!

Most of the UK, myself included, are used to and want their handicap to reflect their ability under competition conditions.  So will gravitate to only entering scores from such conditions.  

The point I was getting at is that playing 18 holes is by no means a necessity.  And on a rated course, winter isnt considered a reason to not play for handicap (again personally i disagree, but it is what it is).


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## IanMcC (Dec 8, 2020)

sweaty sock said:



			The whole purpose of the WHS is that you enter all your scores (winter, 9 holes, 15 holes etc etc).  And it calculates a fair handicap?  So why not just plug it in and use it.

As your club have backed away from this i would say that without manually managing it your much better of sticking with what has worked?
		
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Quite a shocking response, I must say. I think you should read section 2.1 of the Rules of Handicapping book. Our course uses lift and place in the entire general area, so rounds are not acceptable for handicap. 
As M&H Secretary, I take it as a real insult when you say our club has backed away from WHS.


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## sweaty sock (Dec 8, 2020)

I suppose you need to judge when your handicap will be used.  If its for a sunday kick around with 5 foot gimmies 90% of your golf, then I would say those are the most important rounds to enter!

I would say that through gritted teeth, as thats a crap solution for equitable handicaps.


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## sweaty sock (Dec 8, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Quite a shocking response, I must say. I think you should read section 2.1 of the Rules of Handicapping book. Our course uses lift and place in the entire general area, so rounds are not acceptable for handicap.
As M&H Secretary, I take it as a real insult when you say our club has backed away from WHS.
		
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Absolutely no offence intended, I personally 100% agree with that decision as I would prefer handicaps to stay as a representation of your formal golf ability.  But the push has been to rate winter courses, avoid prefered lies, and enter scores.  Our county have been agressively pushing this approach?  Has it been different for you?


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## IanMcC (Dec 8, 2020)

sweaty sock said:



			Absolutely no offence intended, I personally 100% agree with that decision as I would prefer handicaps to stay as a representation of your formal golf ability.  But the push has been to rate winter courses, avoid prefered lies, and enter scores.  Our county have been agressively pushing this approach?  Has it been different for you?
		
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There has been no push, either from Wales Golf or our club management, to have our winter courses rated. We are a parkland course in rainy North Wales. The greenkeeper requests preferred lies everywhere in Winter months to protect the course as much as possible, and I think he is right.


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## sweaty sock (Dec 8, 2020)

So do I, but that in effect rules out the WHS for 6 months unless you do it manually...


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## IanMcC (Dec 8, 2020)

sweaty sock said:



			So do I, but that in effect rules out the WHS for 6 months unless you do it manually...
		
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It rules out HI changes, yes, but we are using this period to get members used to converting their HI to a CH, and making them aware of the 95% to achieve PH. Believe me, it will take the full winter period (not 6 months, more like 4) for some of them to get it.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 8, 2020)

sweaty sock said:



			Absolutely no offence intended, I personally 100% agree with that decision as I would prefer handicaps to stay as a representation of your formal golf ability.  But the push has been to rate winter courses, *avoid prefered lies*, and enter scores.  Our county have been agressively pushing this approach?  Has it been different for you?
		
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Presumably you mean avoid preferred lies in the general area as a whole, not preferred lies on grass cut to fairway height or less?


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## sweaty sock (Dec 8, 2020)

Whatever makes it qualifying...


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 10, 2020)

Had my first WHS experience yesterday in the midweek stableford. 37pts which would have been a 0.2 cut in old money (CSS was 35pts 99% of the time) but my HI came down by 0.1 this morning.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 10, 2020)

We had a member, who had a CONGU handicap of 27.1. He only had one score pre October 2020 (before the WHS 1st became available before launch), so his Index was set to 27.1. He had submitted 3 additional scores in October, and 1 extra score on 4th November just after launch. Based on his 5 scores, his Index went up to 33.1. This gave him *ELEVEN *additional shots off the yellow tees, with his Course Handicap being 38.1.

*He won yesterdays Seniors competition with 48 points*. You've got to love WHS . I suspect it will take some time to settle.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 10, 2020)

A cousin of a buddy of mine is a golfer in the US and his club has adopted the 2 shot penalty and drop option for when a ball is hit OoB (that we have not adopted).  Under WHS do all golf clubs the world over not need to be playing to a consistent set of rules?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A cousin of a buddy of mine is a golfer in the US and his club has adopted the 2 shot penalty and drop option for when a ball is hit OoB (that we have not adopted).  Under WHS do all golf clubs the world over not need to be playing to a consistent set of rules?
		
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I think over the pond they more or less do as they please. POTUS handicap is a prime example


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## rosecott (Dec 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A cousin of a buddy of mine is a golfer in the US and his club has adopted the 2 shot penalty and drop option for when a ball is hit OoB (that we have not adopted).  Under WHS do all golf clubs the world over not need to be playing to a consistent set of rules?
		
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You could say that it's not the US that is out of step. Under the rules of golf, a club is perfectly entitled to use this alternative to stroke and distance. It is CONGU who decided not to allow rounds played using that rule as "counting for handicap".


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 10, 2020)

rosecott said:



			You could say that it's not the US that is out of step. Under the rules of golf, a club is perfectly entitled to use this alternative to stroke and distance. It is CONGU who decided not to allow rounds played using that rule as "counting for handicap".
		
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Not saying that US is out of step - but we are not aligned.


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## apj0524 (Dec 10, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			There has been no push, either from Wales Golf or our club management, to have our winter courses rated. We are a parkland course in rainy North Wales. The *greenkeeper requests preferred lies everywhere in Winter months to protect the course as much as possible*, and I think he is right.
		
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Genuinely I am interested to know what is the argument that preferred lies protect the course, as in my head I can fat a shot and take a big divot anywhere and I a not see how preferred lies protects the course, small mats, teeing the ball up and have to play from the rough I can see would protect the course?  I am asking because this debate rages every year at out club


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## Swango1980 (Dec 10, 2020)

apj0524 said:



			Genuinely I am interested to know what is the argument that preferred lies protect the course, as in my head I can fat a shot and take a big divot anywhere and I a not see how preferred lies protects the course, small mats, teeing the ball up and have to play from the rough I can see would protect the course?  I am asking because this debate rages every year at out club
		
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I don't think it is just about protecting the course, but to help provide a "fairer" and more enjoyable game to golfers over the winter.

In terms of protecting the course, it ensures there is less chance golfers feel like they have to dig down on their shots to hit it out of a bad lie. I appreciate golfers can do this on a perfect lie, but it reduces the odds.

In terms of making the game more enjoyable and fairer, it stops golfers having to hit the ball out of patches that are essentially mud (which you get at my course). Also, the big thing is it allows the golfer to clean their ball of mud. As such, even professional tournaments adopt preferred lies when weather has been bad, and the reason they do this is not primarily to protect the course. In fact, protecting the course would have little or nothing to do with adopting preferred lies in this case.


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## USER1999 (Dec 10, 2020)

If I play off the blues, at 6600 yards, my 10.1 index gives me 12 shots.
If I play off the yellows, bizarrely still called the ladies tees, at 5676 yards, my index gives me 11 shots.
Given some holes are more than 100 yards shorter, I quite fancy my chances.
I thought there would be a bigger differential.
My club are also going to stipulate which tees are in use for the comps, and it will be blue only.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 10, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			If I play off the blues, at 6600 yards, my 10.1 index gives me 12 shots.
If I play off the yellows, bizarrely still called the ladies tees, at 5676 yards, my index gives me 11 shots.
Given some holes are more than 100 yards shorter, I quite fancy my chances.
I thought there would be a bigger differential.
My club are also going to stipulate which tees are in use for the comps, and it will be blue only.
		
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WHS does not take into account the difference between Par and Course Rating. Your yellow tees might be several shots easier than blue tees (compare their Course Rating). When playing to handicap, you are playing against Course Rating, not Par. So, for example, on your blue course you may need 36 points to play to handicap, but on yellow course you may need 39 points to play to handicap (the numbers are just an example, as I do not know the course ratings at your courses, or par)


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## Vikingman (Dec 10, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			We had a member, who had a CONGU handicap of 27.1. He only had one score pre October 2020 (before the WHS 1st became available before launch), so his Index was set to 27.1. He had submitted 3 additional scores in October, and 1 extra score on 4th November just after launch. Based on his 5 scores, his Index went up to 33.1. This gave him *ELEVEN *additional shots off the yellow tees, with his Course Handicap being 38.1.

*He won yesterdays Seniors competition with 48 points*. You've got to love WHS . I suspect it will take some time to settle.
		
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He would gain in the region of three shots by setting his index at his old handicap.

Trying to work this logically if his initial pre round handicap index is 27.1  and he doesn't better this wouldn't his handicap after 5 rounds still be 27.1?

Also when does the hard cap come into play?

I'm not trying to pick fault, I'm genuinely interested in the maths behind this.


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## jim8flog (Dec 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A cousin of a buddy of mine is a golfer in the US and his club has adopted the 2 shot penalty and drop option for when a ball is hit OoB (that we have not adopted).  Under WHS do all golf clubs the world over not need to be playing to a consistent set of rules?
		
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Over the pond they have mulligans we do not.

We had a long term American visitor playing with us a lot of last year. In the end we just ignored the fact that he kept playing the same way as he did in the States.

Local Rules have always been optional and I know of one or two that we have that other clubs probably do not- exposed tree roots and obstructions close to the green.


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## USER1999 (Dec 10, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			WHS does not take into account the difference between Par and Course Rating. Your yellow tees might be several shots easier than blue tees (compare their Course Rating). When playing to handicap, you are playing against Course Rating, not Par. So, for example, on your blue course you may need 36 points to play to handicap, but on yellow course you may need 39 points to play to handicap (the numbers are just an example, as I do not know the course ratings at your courses, or par)
		
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This is why it is so confusing. If two people are both playing in a comp, off different tees (is this allowed?), and both shoot 40 pts, one is 4 under, and one maybe 1 under, for handicapping, but for the comp, both would have the same score.

I am just totally confused by the whole thing.


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## jim8flog (Dec 10, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			. The greenkeeper requests preferred lies everywhere in Winter months to protect the course as much as possible, and I think he is right.
		
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Odd one that most greenkeepers I have known would prefer us not to have preferred lies. A players ball finishes in a divot hole the player lifts it out and prefers the lie the result is 2 divots holes and not one.

I am the sort of player that nearly always takes a divot so moving the ball to a new location just means a divot hole in the new location rather then the original one (assuming I cannot find the divot to put it back)


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## jim8flog (Dec 10, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			This is why it is so confusing. If two people are both playing in a comp, off different tees (is this allowed?),.

.
		
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  It would be pretty rare except for a mixed comps and the player with the lowest course rating off their tee would get course adjustment shots anyway.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 10, 2020)

murphthemog said:



			This is why it is so confusing. If two people are both playing in a comp, off different tees (is this allowed?), and both shoot 40 pts, one is 4 under, and one maybe 1 under, for handicapping, but for the comp, both would have the same score.

I am just totally confused by the whole thing.
		
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As jim8flog said, in this case there is an adjustment to account for the differences in course rating.  I agree with the confusion, I've come across many many golfers now that just don't understand why they don't get a lot more shots at harder courses. The biggest example and impact, as you mentioned, are the difference in handicaps at the same course, but different tee boxes. Our white tees are a lot more difficult than yellows, but most golfers play off the same handicap on both, perhaps one extra shot off whites depending on rounding (Slopes are 130 and 133, so similar). You could have a situation where the white course was harder, but had a lower slope. In that case, some would have a lower handicap off whites than yellows. That really would cause some panic amongst club golfers, would be interesting if any courses experience this.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 10, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I too can't see how preferred lies protects the course, if anything it makes it worse as everyone is always taking a divot out of the best piece of nearby grass.

In the subject of Americans, for every one of them who takes a mulligan, or whatever, there's probably a British golfer who does the same. They are not all just casual hackers with no concept of the rules.
		
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My earlier point about the US club's OoB alternative to putting a provisional/new ball into play is that it was in the club's local rules - it wasn't simply what the members chose to do.  

Though I appreciate it's most probably not going to make any real difference to comparative HIs, I just thought countries playing under WHS would be aligned in respect of the rules golfers played to.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 10, 2020)

Vikingman said:



			He would gain in the region of three shots by setting his index at his old handicap.

Trying to work this logically if his initial pre round handicap index is 27.1  and he doesn't better this wouldn't his handicap after 5 rounds still be 27.1?

Also when does the hard cap come into play?

I'm not trying to pick fault, I'm genuinely interested in the maths behind this.
		
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When WHS was first seen by clubs in October, he only had the one score in his history. Not enough scores to calculate a WHS handicap, so his Index was simply set to 27.1 to match CONGU. Slope off yellows is 130, so that would give him a course handicap of 31 (+4 shots against CONGU)

He submitted 3 more scores in October. These were not transferred to WHS until it launched in November. So, once they were taken into account, his Index shot up to 32.1 (his October scores were not great, Adj Gros = 113, 107 and 112, Course Rating = 66.8)

On 4th November, with WHS in play, he shot an adjusted gross of 124 off whites (CR=69.4) and his Index went to 34.1. So, this gave him a course handicap of 39. So, my initial post was actually incorrect, he actually got 12 extra shots, not 11 by the time he played this weekends competition.

He shot an adjusted gross of 97 this weekend, which gave him 48 points and his Index has dropped from 34.1 to 28.2 (course handicap from 39 to 32)

I guess, had he been a completely new member, you expect a big score at some point. However, in this transition period, there will be many people who have had a CONGU handicap, but not submitted many qualifying scores over the last 3 years. So, the WHS handicap they play off could be very different to what their CONGU handicap was. I expect for the first 6 months or so, there may be some funky scores in competitions, perhaps more than you'd usually see.


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## Imurg (Dec 11, 2020)

Are they still ironing out problems with handicaps?
I haven't put a card in since WHS began.
I got an email this morning informing me that my index has gone up to 6.7 from 6.2.
As far as I can tell the only thing that was different in the numbers between WHS and CONGU was the ESR that didn't get used in the transition.
How can my index change without putting in a card..?


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## rulefan (Dec 11, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Are they still ironing out problems with handicaps?
I haven't put a card in since WHS began.
I got an email this morning informing me that my index has gone up to 6.7 from 6.2.
As far as I can tell the only thing that was different in the numbers between WHS and CONGU was the ESR that didn't get used in the transition.
How can my index change without putting in a card..?
		
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Do you mean that your CONGU exact was 6.2 and now your WHS is 6.7? Or that at transition your WHS was set at 6.2 bur subsequently it has gone up to 6.7?


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## Imurg (Dec 11, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Do you mean that your CONGU exact was 6.2 and now your WHS is 6.7? Or that at transition your WHS was set at 6.2 bur subsequently it has gone up to 6.7?
		
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Yesterday I was 6.2 WHS
Today, as of 4.51am, I'm 6.7 WHS 
No cards in since late October...


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## rulefan (Dec 11, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Yesterday I was 6.2 WHS
Today, as of 4.51am, I'm 6.7 WHS
No cards in since late October...
		
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Has your club made the adjustment for the ESR you mentioned?


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## Imurg (Dec 11, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Has your club made the adjustment for the ESR you mentioned?
		
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I don't know.
The ESR took me from 7.1 to 6.1 CONGU in late October.
Can't remember what the initial transition index was but it came down to 6.2
No cards in under WHS and today it's up to 6.7...
That's all I know...


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## rulefan (Dec 11, 2020)

May be your manager or h'cap sec has done some sort of course correction or not all your data had been uploaded from your ISV to the CDH originally. It seems that V1 (at least) had problems with some historical data not getting through.
Have you looked at your scoring record on the WHS Portal for a clue?


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## Imurg (Dec 11, 2020)

rulefan said:



			May be your manager or h'cap sec has done some sort of course correction or not all your data had been uploaded from your ISV to the CDH originally. It seems that V1 (at least) had problems with some historical data not getting through.
Have you looked at your scoring record on the WHS Portal for a clue?
		
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None of the number have changed as far as I can see.
I'll query it with the club.
V1 Dashboard and England Golf app both show 6.7 but if I needed to print out a handicap certificate it would show 6.2.


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## sweaty sock (Dec 11, 2020)

Every time i've looked ag the handicap certs on HDID they've been broken?


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## SammmeBee (Dec 11, 2020)

sweaty sock said:



			Every time i've looked ag the handicap certs on HDID they've been broken?
		
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Just look on your country’s WHS App - it’s all there.


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## sweaty sock (Dec 11, 2020)

I should have checked before I posted, it's working fine now 🤣🤣


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## larmen (Dec 11, 2020)

My handicap has just changed significantly up again. About teh same amount it changed significantly down when WHS was 1st introduced. There must have been some kind of correction?
I went from 36 conga to 26.8 WHS and now to 35.6WHS. The confusing bit is I get fewer shots from the whites than from the yellows. Well, I might have to shoot some good rounds then.


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## Junior (Dec 11, 2020)

larmen said:



			My handicap has just changed significantly up again. About teh same amount it changed significantly down when WHS was 1st introduced. There must have been some kind of correction?
I went from 36 conga to 26.8 WHS and now to 35.6WHS. The confusing bit is I get fewer shots from the whites than from the yellows. Well, I might have to shoot some good rounds then.
		
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Most of the handicaps where I play reduced overnight as WHS had apparently used a slope rating that was incorrect for our course.   Ive dropped from 4.4 to 4.1.


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## JonnyGutteridge (Dec 11, 2020)

No mention recently of it on here;

I have an NR in my last 20 rounds. However, this is not showing on my EG list of my last 20 on the new system. Funnily enough, my oldest round of the 20 is also within my best 8. Had the NR been pulled through, it would increase my handicap as my 20th oldest round would become my 21st oldest.

The NR in question was a medal whereby my approach shot, and provisional approach shot into the 18th were not found and I wasn’t on for a score, so nothing untoward.

Moving forwards, I would expect NRs to be pulled through? Otherwise NRing has benefits...


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2020)

Please can someone point me in the recommended handicaps for team and pairs games eg Texas scrambles 

Thanks


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## yandabrown (Dec 11, 2020)

Have a look at page 40 onwards here: https://www.englandgolf.org/wp-cont...les-of-Handicapping-as-applied-within-GBI.pdf


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## Old Skier (Dec 11, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Please can someone point me in the recommended handicaps for team and pairs games eg Texas scrambles

Thanks
		
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my clubs notice board or

https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/CONGU-Rules-of-Handicapping1.pdf

Appendix C

Page 94 ish


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## IanMcC (Dec 11, 2020)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			No mention recently of it on here;

I have an NR in my last 20 rounds. However, this is not showing on my EG list of my last 20 on the new system. Funnily enough, my oldest round of the 20 is also within my best 8. Had the NR been pulled through, it would increase my handicap as my 20th oldest round would become my 21st oldest.

The NR in question was a medal whereby my approach shot, and provisional approach shot into the 18th were not found and I wasn’t on for a score, so nothing untoward.

Moving forwards, I would expect NRs to be pulled through? Otherwise NRing has benefits...
		
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No round which was partially NR was pulled over to Dashboard under Wales Golf. That was confirmed by Wales Golf some time back. Certainly where Club V1 is involved. Gone forever, methinks.


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## Old Skier (Dec 11, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			No round which was partially NR was pulled over to Dashboard under Wales Golf. That was confirmed by Wales Golf some time back. Certainly where Club V1 is involved. Gone forever, methinks.
		
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Clubs have access to old V1 CONGU info and can add cards via the dashboard is my understanding


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## rulefan (Dec 11, 2020)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			No mention recently of it on here;

I have an NR in my last 20 rounds. However, this is not showing on my EG list of my last 20 on the new system. Funnily enough, my oldest round of the 20 is also within my best 8. Had the NR been pulled through, it would increase my handicap as my 20th oldest round would become my 21st oldest.

The NR in question was a medal whereby my approach shot, and provisional approach shot into the 18th were not found and I wasn’t on for a score, so nothing untoward.

Moving forwards, I would expect NRs to be pulled through? Otherwise NRing has benefits...
		
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I would suggest that because your NR CDH record had no hole by holes scores the transition would have no way of knowing your gross score so couldn't deal with it.


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## IanM (Dec 11, 2020)

chrisd said:



			Please can someone point me in the recommended handicaps for team and pairs games eg Texas scrambles

Thanks
		
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Played a "Pairs Texas" last week... that was 35% or higher Course Handicap and 15% of lower.   It obvious when you think about it!


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## Old Skier (Dec 11, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I would suggest that because your NR CDH record had no hole by holes scores the transition would have no way of knowing your gross score so couldn't deal with it.
		
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Don’t quite understand that, why wouldn’t there be a hole by hole record as it was only the 18th missing.


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## rulefan (Dec 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Don’t quite understand that, why wouldn’t there be a hole by hole record as it was only the 18th missing.
		
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The CDH database does not hold hole by hole scores. The transition used the CDH database not the ISV (ie V1/HDID) files.


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## Old Skier (Dec 11, 2020)

rulefan said:



			The CDH database does not hold hole by hole scores. The transition used the CDH database not the ISV (ie V1/HDID) files.
		
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Gotcha now, I have access old CONGU records through my ISV for now. Couldn’t the card be added via the dashboard after retrieving the scores?


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			my clubs notice board or

https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/CONGU-Rules-of-Handicapping1.pdf

Appendix C

Page 94 ish
		
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Many thanks !


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## chrisd (Dec 11, 2020)

IanM said:



			Played a "Pairs Texas" last week... that was 35% or higher Course Handicap and 15% of lower.   It obvious when you think about it!   

Click to expand...

Thanks Ian - just checking we've got it right


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2020)

Can someone just remind/clarify fr me.  I've had look in the WHS book but just want to check.

4BBB strokeplay match at own club tomorrow.  We each know our HI and CH.  But do I take 85% of each for the PH of each of the four for PH?  Then it seems like we *don't *then take the lowest PH of all four off the PH of the other three to give the strokes received?  Instead all four of us get strokes according to our PH?

So I am going to be the lowest handicapper.  My HI is 8.4 and at my own track my CH is 9; for 4BBB the guidance indicates 85% of that - which is 7.65 so my PH for 4bbb at my own track is 8.  In the past I would have taken 8 off the PH of the other three and that would have given the shots the other three receive - I would have got no shots - but the guidelines suggest that I don't do the differencing and I get a shot on holes 1-8, really?

Sorry for being so dim.


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## rulefan (Dec 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Gotcha now, I have access old CONGU records through my ISV for now. Couldn’t the card be added via the dashboard after retrieving the scores?
		
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I believe so.


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## Old Skier (Dec 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Can someone just remind/clarify fr me.  I've had look in the WHS book but just want to check.

4BBB strokeplay match at own club tomorrow.  We each know our HI and CH.  But do I take 85% of each for the PH of each of the four for PH?  Then it seems like we *don't *then take the lowest PH of all four off the PH of the other three to give the strokes received?  Instead all four of us get strokes according to our PH?

So I am going to be the lowest handicapper.  My HI is 8.4 and at my own track my CH is 9; for 4BBB the guidance indicates 85% of that - which is 7.65 so my PH for 4bbb at my own track is 8.  In the past I would have taken 8 off the PH of the other three and that would have given the shots the other three receive - I would have got no shots - but the guidelines suggest that I don't do the differencing and I get a shot on holes 1-8, really?

Sorry for being so dim.
		
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Confused (easily done these days ) is it match play or stroke play, if it’s stroke play BB you’ve always had shots on holes unless your off scratch.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Confused (easily done these days ) is it match play or stroke play, if it’s stroke play BB you’ve always had shots on holes unless your off scratch.
		
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It's a strokeplay (as opposed to stableford) better ball match.

I might be getting really confused and my memory failing me - but in a four ball better ball match I am sure that strokes received were worked out from the lowest handicap by subtracting the lowest handicap (90%) off each of the other three players handicap (90%).

So if I was lowest off 10 and other three were all off 20, I'd get 9 shots and the other three would get 18 shots.  Differencing I'd get no shots in the match and the other three would get a shot on SI 1-9.  Or have I been doing this wrong for as long as I can remember.


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## rulefan (Dec 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Can someone just remind/clarify fr me.  I've had look in the WHS book but just want to check.

*4BBB strokeplay match* at own club tomorrow.  We each know our HI and CH.  But do I take 85% of each for the PH of each of the four for PH?  Then it seems like we *don't *then take the lowest PH of all four off the PH of the other three to give the strokes received?  Instead all four of us get strokes according to our PH?

So I am going to be the lowest handicapper.  My HI is 8.4 and at my own track my CH is 9; for 4BBB the guidance indicates 85% of that - which is 7.65 so my PH for 4bbb at my own track is 8.  In the past I would have taken 8 off the PH of the other three and that would have given the shots the other three receive - I would have got no shots - but the guidelines suggest that I don't do the differencing and I get a shot on holes 1-8, really?

Sorry for being so dim.
		
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*4BBB strokeplay match*

Is it match play or stroke play?

If stroke play, each player gets his own Playing Handicap
If match play, each player's Playing Handicap is calculated and then each player reduces his PH by the lowest player's PH.


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## DeanoMK (Dec 11, 2020)

Hello, quick question.

I played last Saturday off the yellows, non-competition, my index is 14.9 which gave me a course handicap of 16 and a 95% playing handicap of 15. 

I played, scored and signed to that handicap. I had issues entering the card so the club entered it for me and they've put me as a 16 handicap giving me one extra point on my total. 

Who is correct? The club or I?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2020)

rulefan said:



*4BBB strokeplay match*

Is it match play or stroke play?

If stroke play, each player gets his own Playing Handicap
If match play, each player's Playing Handicap is calculated and then each player reduces his PH by the lowest player's PH.
		
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Match play.  Is each player's PH calculated by 90% of his CH or 85%.  The WHS guidelines document I read indicated 85%?  And before doing the difference from the lowest PH for each player I round the PH to nearest integer as before (x.5 going up)?  

I've looked on the club website and though there is loads of WHS info - I can't find this most basic guidance,


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## IanMcC (Dec 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			It's a strokeplay (as opposed to stableford) better ball match.

I might be getting really confused and my memory failing me - but in a four ball better ball match I am sure that strokes received were worked out from the lowest handicap by subtracting the lowest handicap (90%) off each of the other three players handicap (90%).

So if I was lowest off 10 and other three were all off 20, I'd get 9 shots and the other three would get 18 shots.  Differencing I'd get no shots in the match and the other three would get a shot on SI 1-9.  Or have I been doing this wrong for as long as I can remember.
		
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Could be wrong, but to my mind, if it is a match, the handicap allowance is 90%, not 85%.


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## Old Skier (Dec 11, 2020)

DeanoMK said:



			Hello, quick question.

I played last Saturday off the yellows, non-competition, my index is 14.9 which gave me a course handicap of 16 and a 95% playing handicap of 15.

I played, scored and signed to that handicap. I had issues entering the card so the club entered it for me and they've put me as a 16 handicap giving me one extra point on my total.

Who is correct? The club or I?
		
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Comp will be decided on Playing Handicap, HI done on Course Handicap


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## Old Skier (Dec 11, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Could be wrong, but to my mind, if it is a match, the handicap allowance is 90%, not 85%.
		
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Now he’s decided what he’s playing  it’s 90%


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## DeanoMK (Dec 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Comp will be decided on Playing Handicap, HI done on Course Handicap
		
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Okay, so it's only comps that the 95% is used for? Thought I'd sussed most of this whs malarkey, haha.


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## Old Skier (Dec 11, 2020)

Old Skier said:



			Comp will be decided on Playing Handicap, HI done on Course Handicap
		
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If it was a NQ @DeanoMK they may have used the CH for the comp


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## IanMcC (Dec 11, 2020)

DeanoMK said:



			Hello, quick question.

I played last Saturday off the yellows, non-competition, my index is 14.9 which gave me a course handicap of 16 and a 95% playing handicap of 15.

I played, scored and signed to that handicap. I had issues entering the card so the club entered it for me and they've put me as a 16 handicap giving me one extra point on my total.

Who is correct? The club or I?
		
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If it is an acceptable score (qualifier) then the software automatically adjusts for 95% Playing Handicap.
If it is a 'non qualifier', which it sounds like it is, then the software gives you the option of setting a handicap fraction or not. If they have left it at 1/1 then you get 16 shots. If they set it at 19/20 (95%) then you get 15 for the comp.
At least, this is true with ClubV1.


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## rulefan (Dec 11, 2020)

IanMcC said:



			Could be wrong, but to my mind, if it is a match, the handicap allowance is 90%, not 85%.
		
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Yes.
Four-ball Stableford is 85%. Four-ball Match is 90%.


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## rulefan (Dec 11, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And before doing the difference from the lowest PH for each player I round the PH to nearest integer as before (x.5 going up)?
		
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Yes.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 11, 2020)

Cool - many thanks.  Sooo.  Going to be fun tomorrow.  My partner gets 5 shots from me; my opponents get 14 and 15.  Love that sort of challenge.  Just have to play steady middle SF golf as that will usually be enough to prevent them winning holes and I'll have my buddy come in to win holes for us


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## Imurg (Dec 12, 2020)

Imurg said:



			Are they still ironing out problems with handicaps?
I haven't put a card in since WHS began.
I got an email this morning informing me that my index has gone up to 6.7 from 6.2.
As far as I can tell the only thing that was different in the numbers between WHS and CONGU was the ESR that didn't get used in the transition.
How can my index change without putting in a card..?
		
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I think I've solved this.
From memory, my cards from Whipsnade were worked out with a slope of 125
They haven't been rated yet and have been given temporary ratings.
They've now used the temporary ratings in my calculation  - 117 Whites, 114 Yellows.
That, I presume, makes enough difference to make the change.


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## MendieGK (Dec 13, 2020)

I’ve been really positive about the new handicap system, until yesterday. 
Played in the medal at burnham. 

Par 70. Only 10’players broke nett 80 out of 95!! Yet the PCC reckons the course only played 1 shot harder than normal!!
1 shot!!! 
In the old system it would have been reductions only all day long.
absolutely ridiculous


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## rulefan (Dec 13, 2020)

MendieGK said:



			I’ve been really positive about the new handicap system, until yesterday.
Played in the medal at burnham.

Par 70. Only 10’players broke nett 80 out of 95!! Yet the PCC reckons the course only played 1 shot harder than normal!!
1 shot!!!
In the old system it would have been reductions only all day long.
absolutely ridiculous
		
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So the effect on your handicap is the same? ie nil


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## MendieGK (Dec 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			So the effect on your handicap is the same? ie nil
		
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No it actually cost me getting off scratch. If the results yday only led to a 1 shot PCC then it will basically never go any higher


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## rulefan (Dec 13, 2020)

MendieGK said:



			No it actually cost me getting off scratch. If the results yday only led to a 1 shot PCC then it will basically never go any higher
		
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Not sure I understand. RO would mean no change. Did one of your best 8 fall out of the last 20?


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## MendieGK (Dec 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Not sure I understand. RO would mean no change. Did one of your best 8 fall out of the last 20?
		
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What I’m saying it that despite those conditions and scores yesterday, PCC only went up 1. That it absolutely ridiculous.
95 entries only one person within 4 of par (net) and 3 within one of course rating. 
If that doesn’t equate to at least a 2 shot increase in PCC I don’t know what would?!?


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## jim8flog (Dec 13, 2020)

MendieGK said:



			What I’m saying it that despite those conditions and scores yesterday, PCC only went up 1. That it absolutely ridiculous.
95 entries only one person within 4 of par (net) and 3 within one of course rating.
If that doesn’t equate to at least a 2 shot increase in PCC I don’t know what would?!?
		
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But if it did go up 2 would that round be one of your best 8?

In fact given what you are saying is it likely that it would be in anybody's best 8?


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## MendieGK (Dec 13, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			But if it did go up 2 would that round be one of your best 8?
		
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Yeah but to be honest, it more the shock that despite the conditions (and reflected scores) for the day the PCC only went up 1? In previous handicap system it would have been +3 RO only every single time....

What does it need for a +3 increase in PCC? An earthquake?


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## jim8flog (Dec 13, 2020)

MendieGK said:



			Yeah but to be honest, it more the shock that despite the conditions (and reflected scores) for the day the PCC only went up 1? In previous handicap system it would have been +3 RO only every single time....

What does it need for a +3 increase in PCC? An earthquake?
		
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Without going back over the figures

 from the sound of it nobody would have been cut and nobody would have had a 0.1 increase. So from a handicap point of view a fairly meaningless comp.

 Surely this is one of the benefits of the WHS - every qualifying comp counts good or bad.

I would say I have no idea of the maths behind the PCC adjustments but its a bit like comparing apples with pears to compare the two systems as both have different effects on a players handicap.


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## rosecott (Dec 13, 2020)

I, too, have not seen how the PCC calculation is done and how it compares with the old CSS calculation. Our comp on Tuesday had a PCC of 2.

Have gone back to Tuesday's results and calculated what CSS would have been under CONGU - SSS+2, so, the same as PCC. So, it would be interesting if someone did the old CSS calculation for the Burnham comp rather than a condemnation of WHS without any facts.


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## rulefan (Dec 13, 2020)

rosecott said:



			I, too, have not seen how the PCC calculation is done and how it compares with the old CSS calculation. Our comp on Tuesday had a PCC of 2.

Have gone back to Tuesday's results and calculated what CSS would have been under CONGU - SSS+2, so, the same as PCC. So, it would be interesting if someone did the old CSS calculation for the Burnham comp rather than a condemnation of WHS without any facts.
		
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Exactly. The PCC algorithm is apparently more sophisticated the CSS tables and is built specifically for a 'best of' averaging system.
 As Jim (nearly) said when he was climbing the stairs - Apples and Oranges


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## Swango1980 (Dec 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Exactly. The PCC algorithm is apparently more sophisticated the CSS tables and is built specifically for a 'best of' averaging system.
As Jim (nearly) said when he was climbing the stairs - Apples and Oranges 

Click to expand...

Well, we have to take their word for it that it is more sophisticated. I won't hold my breath though.

As far as the stated comp, where PCC was +1 but the scores apparently indicate it would have been +3 and reductions only in the CSS days, that sounds worrying. The person that finished +4 could well have shot a score that featured in their best 8. So, the PCC calculation is important. 

Would be interesting to know what CSS would have been.


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## Liverpoolphil (Dec 13, 2020)

MendieGK said:



			I’ve been really positive about the new handicap system, until yesterday.
Played in the medal at burnham.

Par 70. Only 10’players broke nett 80 out of 95!! Yet the PCC reckons the course only played 1 shot harder than normal!!
1 shot!!!
In the old system it would have been reductions only all day long.
absolutely ridiculous
		
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My mate played in a comp yesterday ,  no one played to handicap - PCC didn’t move at all 

I still think the whole thing isn’t working correctly at the moment


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## rosecott (Dec 13, 2020)

Liverpoolphil said:



			My mate played in a comp yesterday ,  no one played to handicap - PCC didn’t move at all

I still think the whole thing isn’t working correctly at the moment
		
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I wouldn't mind betting that there is still an element in the calculation involving the proportion of players in "what used to be buffer".


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## rosecott (Dec 13, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			Well, we have to take their word for it that it is more sophisticated. I won't hold my breath though.

As far as the stated comp, where PCC was +1 but the scores apparently indicate it would have been +3 and reductions only in the CSS days, that sounds worrying. The person that finished +4 could well have shot a score that featured in their best 8. So, the PCC calculation is important.

Would be interesting to know what CSS would have been.
		
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Well, if you look at my post #2243 the old CSS came out the same as PCC. I, too, would like it if the calculation could be done for the Burnham comp. I'd do it out of interest if I had the results.


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## MendieGK (Dec 13, 2020)

jim8flog said:



			Without going back over the figures

from the sound of it nobody would have been cut and nobody would have had a 0.1 increase. So from a handicap point of view a fairly meaningless comp.

Surely this is one of the benefits of the WHS - every qualifying comp counts good or bad.

I would say I have no idea of the maths behind the PCC adjustments but its a bit like comparing apples with pears to compare the two systems as both have different effects on a players handicap.
		
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rosecott said:



			I, too, have not seen how the PCC calculation is done and how it compares with the old CSS calculation. Our comp on Tuesday had a PCC of 2.
		
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rosecott said:



			Well, if you look at my post #2243 the old CSS came out the same as PCC. I, too, would like it if the calculation could be done for the Burnham comp. I'd do it out of interest if I had the results.
		
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I could provide you with the scoresheet, but it admittedly wouldn’t take into account net double bogeys and people achieving buffer because of that. If I am wrong I’d happily hold my hands up.

But par 70, SSS previously 73.

99 players

Officially only 5 players hit buffer and Only 7 players had better than nett 77. So we can assume less than 10 would make buffer after rule 19 adjustments.
I’ve also checked every NR, and not one of them had a score that had just one or two bad holes

On average around 19% would have to reach hit buffer for css to only move 1.

Imo it’s not even close


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## SammmeBee (Dec 13, 2020)

MendieGK said:



			I could provide you with the scoresheet, but it admittedly wouldn’t take into account net double bogeys and people achieving buffer because of that. If I am wrong I’d happily hold my hands up.

But par 70, SSS previously 73.

99 players

Officially only 5 players hit buffer and Only 7 players had better than nett 77. So we can assume less than 10 would make buffer after rule 19 adjustments.
I’ve also checked every NR, and not one of them had a score that had just one or two bad holes

On average around 19% would have to reach hit buffer for css to only move 1.

Imo it’s not even close
		
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Need numbers in each handicap category....


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## rulefan (Dec 13, 2020)

MendieGK said:



			I could provide you with the scoresheet, but it admittedly wouldn’t take into account net double bogeys and people achieving buffer because of that. If I am wrong I’d happily hold my hands up.

But par 70, SSS previously 73.

99 players

Officially only 5 players hit buffer and Only 7 players had better than nett 77. So we can assume less than 10 would make buffer after rule 19 adjustments.
I’ve also checked every NR, and not one of them had a score that had just one or two bad holes

On average around 19% would have to reach hit buffer for css to only move 1.

Imo it’s not even close
		
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What is the Course Rating and Slope?


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## MendieGK (Dec 13, 2020)

SammmeBee said:



			Need numbers in each handicap category....
		
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Hence me saying roughly 19% being the moving mark.


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## MendieGK (Dec 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			What is the Course Rating and Slope?
		
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rulefan said:



			What is the Course Rating and Slope?
		
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officially 73.7 and par 71, but it seems as the the whs app shows 73.7 and par 70.


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## rulefan (Dec 13, 2020)

MendieGK said:



			officially 73.7 and par 71, but it seems as the the whs app shows 73.7 and par 70.
		
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What is the slope? Par is irrelevant.


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## MendieGK (Dec 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			What is the slope? Par is irrelevant.
		
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127


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 13, 2020)

Looking through my last 20 scores on the EG app I have a 79 showing as a counting score but a 78 which shows as non counting. Anyone know what could cause this?


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## MendieGK (Dec 13, 2020)

drive4show said:



			Looking through my last 20 scores on the EG app I have a 79 showing as a counting score but a 78 which shows as non counting. Anyone know what could cause this?
		
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79 might be due to CSS increase, or because you had a treble that counts as a double


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## rulefan (Dec 13, 2020)

MendieGK said:



			127
		
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Did you de-slope the scores ?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Dec 13, 2020)

MendieGK said:



			79 might be due to CSS increase, or because you had a treble that counts as a double
		
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Cheers Sam 👍


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## rulefan (Dec 13, 2020)

MendieGK said:



			127
		
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Did you allow for the slope in your comparison?


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## MendieGK (Dec 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Did you allow for the slope in your comparison?
		
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In terms of how close the course rating people were? No. I’ve not gone into it that much. As I’ve owned up to before I very much have taken the old view of CSS


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## MendieGK (Dec 13, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Did you allow for the slope in your comparison?
		
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Hands held up here. I assumed course rating went down 1 when the par did. It doesn’t seem like that’s the case.
so effectively based on my expectations PCC did go up 2


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## rulefan (Dec 13, 2020)

MendieGK said:



			Hands held up here. I assumed course rating went down 1 when the par did. It doesn’t seem like that’s the case.
so effectively based on my expectations PCC did go up 2
		
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Course Rating is simply the new name for SSS but expressed a decimal. It gives the difficulty of the whole course for a scratch player (ie the number of stroke he is expected to take for the round). I considers the position and size of obstacles (eg water, bunkers), trees and green contours etc in addition to length.

Par is no more than the sum of the pars of each hole on the course. And the par for a hole is an indication of the length of the hole. It says nothing about difficulty and really not a lot about the length. eg a par 4 can be anything from 240 to 490 yards. So a course of 18 x 250 yards will have the same par as a course of 18 x 450 yards ie 72 but the Course Rating will be very different. ie about 61ish as apposed to about 77ish


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## rosecott (Dec 13, 2020)

MendieGK said:



			Hence me saying roughly 19% being the moving mark.
		
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Under CONGU, as a rough estimate, 6% or less in buffer to be Reductions Only.


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## Bdill93 (Dec 14, 2020)

Two rounds this weekend (one yet to show on WHS from yesterday) 

85 Satuday, 88 Sunday (CR 67.1 PCC 2)

Card numbers 6 and 7.

85 and 92 showing as my current two "counter" rounds - index down to 17.3! Started the weekend at index 23.1 so a decent effort in tough golfing conditions. Should adjust again soon when the 88 comes into play.

I do look forward to a slightly less volitile handicap though!


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## JonnyGutteridge (Dec 14, 2020)

I doubt even the cleverest system could accommodate for a mid-December medal at Burnham 😂😂

Brutal track. And I played it in late May 🙈


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## Soft hands (Dec 15, 2020)

I imagine this has already been asked....but roll ups with your mates can count towards handicap now can’t they?

What’s stopping people putting 10 quick less than honest poor or good scores in to move handicap?


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## Swango1980 (Dec 15, 2020)

Soft hands said:



			I imagine this has already been asked....but roll ups with your mates can count towards handicap now can’t they?

What’s stopping people putting 10 quick less than honest poor or good scores in to move handicap?
		
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Yes, they can, as long as they pre-register first.

What is stopping them? I guess integrity. Yes, if someone lacks integrity, then they could play a lot of consecutive rounds with poor scores, and get a quick increase. I guess it will take handicap committees to look out for such behaviour. Not sure if the WHS software will flag any unusually quick increases like this to bring it to the attention of Committees.


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## yandabrown (Dec 15, 2020)

Soft hands said:



			I imagine this has already been asked....but roll ups with your mates can count towards handicap now can’t they?

What’s stopping people putting 10 quick less than honest poor or good scores in to move handicap?
		
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Nothing to stop people doing that but there is a Low Handicap Index which is used with 2 "caps" that "restrains/limits" the movement a little (but clearly not nearly as much as the 1 shot in the old rules):


The soft cap. The soft cap is triggered when the difference between a player’s newly calculated Handicap Index and their Low Handicap Index is greater than 3.0 strokes.
When a calculated Handicap Index increase is greater than 3.0 strokes, the value above 3.0 strokes is restricted to 50% of the increase.
The hard cap. The hard cap triggers to restrict the amount by which a player’s Handicap Index can increase, after application of the soft cap, to no more than 5.0 strokes above their Low Handicap Index.


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## Soft hands (Dec 15, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			Nothing to stop people doing that but there is a Low Handicap Index which is used with 2 "caps" that "restrains/limits" the movement a little (but clearly not nearly as much as the 1 shot in the old rules):


The soft cap. The soft cap is triggered when the difference between a player’s newly calculated Handicap Index and their Low Handicap Index is greater than 3.0 strokes.
When a calculated Handicap Index increase is greater than 3.0 strokes, the value above 3.0 strokes is restricted to 50% of the increase.
The hard cap. The hard cap triggers to restrict the amount by which a player’s Handicap Index can increase, after application of the soft cap, to no more than 5.0 strokes above their Low Handicap Index.


Click to expand...

Thanks for that.

Can I ask, why not just keep it as qualifying competitions as it is has been?

I mean I know you could still declare a card before you went out, but it seemed a rare occurrence


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## yandabrown (Dec 15, 2020)

I did notice the Golf Monthly article published today regarding the survey done on new Handicap Indexes. I was a little surprised to see:
"There has been plenty of initial debate about the correctness of Slope Ratings at clubs up and down the country – “How can my course be rated the same as ‘that’ course which is so much more difficult?”​Inevitably there will be discrepancies and the governing bodies will need to review their ratings after a period of time."​Surely this was an educational opportunity to point out that the difficulty of courses is the Course Rating and that the Slope is about the relative difficulty for a High Handicapper versus a scratch player. This seems to be the overriding misaprehension that people have (imho).


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## rulefan (Dec 15, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			This seems to be the overriding misaprehension that people have (imho).
		
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This seems to be the misapprehension that Golf Monthly has.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 15, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			I did notice the Golf Monthly article published today regarding the survey done on new Handicap Indexes. I was a little surprised to see:
"There has been plenty of initial debate about the correctness of Slope Ratings at clubs up and down the country – “How can my course be rated the same as ‘that’ course which is so much more difficult?”​Inevitably there will be discrepancies and the governing bodies will need to review their ratings after a period of time."​Surely this was an educational opportunity to point out that the difficulty of courses is the Course Rating and that the Slope is about the relative difficulty for a High Handicapper versus a scratch player. This seems to be the overriding misaprehension that people have (imho).
		
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Completely agree. I wouldn't be surprised if MOST golfers think Slope simply represents absolute difficulty, and therefore consider the Slope to be wrong when a clearly harder course does not have a much higher slope (easiest example would be comparing yellow and white tees at the same club in many instances). And, even if many golfers are told exactly what slope is, many still fail to grasp the concept.


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## yandabrown (Dec 15, 2020)

rulefan said:



			This seems to be the misapprehension that Golf Monthly has.
		
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Maybe @MarkT can comment on behalf of GM?


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## IanM (Dec 15, 2020)

JonnyGutteridge said:



			I doubt even the cleverest system could accommodate for a mid-December medal at Burnham 😂😂

Brutal track. And I played it in late May 🙈
		
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In December the tees are forward and the rough is cut back


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## JonnyGutteridge (Dec 15, 2020)

IanM said:



			In December the tees are forward and the rough is cut back 

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Every little helps! Do they turn the wind off?


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## jim8flog (Dec 15, 2020)

Soft hands said:



			Thanks for that.

Can I ask, why not just keep it as qualifying competitions as it is has been?

I mean I know you could still declare a card before you went out, but it seemed a rare occurrence
		
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 Not where I play. This year pre WHS we were actively encouraging players to put in as many cards as possible. We saw a very large increase as a direct result.
At the WHS workshops it was stressed to attendees to try to get the members to do this.



yandabrown said:



			Nothing to stop people doing that but there is a Low Handicap Index which is used with 2 "caps" that "restrains/limits" the movement a little (but clearly not nearly as much as the 1 shot in the old rules):


The soft cap. The soft cap is triggered when the difference between a player’s newly calculated Handicap Index and their Low Handicap Index is greater than 3.0 strokes.
When a calculated Handicap Index increase is greater than 3.0 strokes, the value above 3.0 strokes is restricted to 50% of the increase.
The hard cap. The hard cap triggers to restrict the amount by which a player’s Handicap Index can increase, after application of the soft cap, to no more than 5.0 strokes above their Low Handicap Index.


Click to expand...




Soft hands said:



			Thanks for that.

Can I ask, why not just keep it as qualifying competitions as it is has been?

I mean I know you could still declare a card before you went out, but it seemed a rare occurrence
		
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From memory-

I think I remember that caps only kick in when a low handicap index has been established and this is only after there are 20 scores in a players record.


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## MarkT (Dec 15, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			Maybe @MarkT can comment on behalf of GM?
		
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Thanks, will have a read and pass on.


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## jimbob.someroo (Dec 15, 2020)

Intrigued by the caps ... My exact handicap in the WHS system after my 20th round was +0.8. My current exact handicap is 6.1.

I'm not playing brill at the moment, but I am putting in a card each time I play. Shooting between 78-82 most rounds, which is pretty good as we're losing a ball or two plugged in the rough and hitting it about 210 off the tee in the current conditions! 

Not going to get deterred, as I enjoy putting a card in so that I've got something to play for throughout - but every chance I'll be up to a 8-9 handicap before long. Worth noting that I'm yet to see a PCC change, likely because less than 8 people have put a card in on any day I've played. That said, I'm yet to see anybody play to their handicap in the conditions we've played in.

So yeah, feel like if there is a soft/hard cap, I'll be coming up against it pretty soon ... so can report back!


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## MarkT (Dec 15, 2020)

yandabrown said:



			Maybe @MarkT can comment on behalf of GM?
		
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Have you got a link to the article? Ta


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## yandabrown (Dec 15, 2020)

MarkT said:



			Have you got a link to the article? Ta
		
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https://www.golf-monthly.co.uk/feat...ions-to-the-world-handicap-system-been-215576


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## jim8flog (Dec 15, 2020)

jimbob.someroo said:



			Intrigued by the caps ... My exact handicap in the WHS system after my 20th round was +0.8. My current exact handicap is 6.1.
		
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 We are on Intelligent Golf

My Low Handicap Index is shown on my Handicap Record on there. It is a bit odd that it is not shown (as far as I can see) on the England Golf platform.

I have already used up half of my allowance. Mind you I am hoping to get back down again, just one good round in the next 5 will do.


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## Green Man (Dec 15, 2020)

We play in a group of about 12-16 players every week. On returning to golf after the recent lockdown I was shocked at how many of the guys had no idea about WHS. Most knew there had been a change but they thought their new index was their handicap. They were surprised that they had a Course handicap but the shock confusion really stepped in when I told them as we are playing stableford so they only get 95%.
Most of these guys won’t have read anything about WHS and with the lack of communication from our club about it other than an email telling us to register on England golf website I can hardly blame them. I’ve gone from one handicap to three was a complaint. I didn’t have the heart to tell them that there is a further playing cap for the different tees.


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## sweaty sock (Dec 16, 2020)

jimbob.someroo said:



			Intrigued by the caps ... My exact handicap in the WHS system after my 20th round was +0.8. My current exact handicap is 6.1.

I'm not playing brill at the moment, but I am putting in a card each time I play. Shooting between 78-82 most rounds, which is pretty good as we're losing a ball or two plugged in the rough and hitting it about 210 off the tee in the current conditions!

Not going to get deterred, as I enjoy putting a card in so that I've got something to play for throughout - but every chance I'll be up to a 8-9 handicap before long. Worth noting that I'm yet to see a PCC change, likely because less than 8 people have put a card in on any day I've played. That said, I'm yet to see anybody play to their handicap in the conditions we've played in.

So yeah, feel like if there is a soft/hard cap, I'll be coming up against it pretty soon ... so can report back!
		
Click to expand...

Hang on?  Are you saying you've gone up 7 shots in 2 weeks?!


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## jimbob.someroo (Dec 16, 2020)

sweaty sock said:



			Hang on?  Are you saying you've gone up 7 shots in 2 weeks?!
		
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No - but the England Golf system shows what your moving handicap would have been over the last couple of years. Discounting what it shows for rounds 1-19 (although they were all generally between +1 - 3), the handicap which would have been given to me based on the average of my best 8 from 20, following my 20th round was +0.8.

This was somewhat skewed by a couple of very strong rounds, one of which was -3 gross in our county champs when standard scratch was 3 above (PCC showing as 3) - so when these fell out of the most recent 20, my handicap started it's upwards journey to where I am now. After my 40th qualifying round I was showing as a 2.1.

It will be interesting to see how much movement is allowed though. When we started after lockdown I was 5.6, after 4 rounds I'm already at 6.1, and just about to lose two of my lower scores from my most recent 20 - meaning I could be off 7 by Christmas! Absolutely fine for me during the winter - but may feel a little generous when the courses start to dry up a little in the Spring!


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## Swango1980 (Dec 16, 2020)

jimbob.someroo said:



			No - but the England Golf system shows what your moving handicap would have been over the last couple of years. Discounting what it shows for rounds 1-19 (although they were all generally between +1 - 3), the handicap which would have been given to me based on the average of my best 8 from 20, following my 20th round was +0.8.

This was somewhat skewed by a couple of very strong rounds, one of which was -3 gross in our county champs when standard scratch was 3 above (PCC showing as 3) - so when these fell out of the most recent 20, my handicap started it's upwards journey to where I am now. After my 40th qualifying round I was showing as a 2.1.

*It will be interesting to see how much movement is allowed though.* When we started after lockdown I was 5.6, after 4 rounds I'm already at 6.1, and just about to lose two of my lower scores from my most recent 20 - meaning I could be off 7 by Christmas! Absolutely fine for me during the winter - but may feel a little generous when the courses start to dry up a little in the Spring!
		
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This is the purpose of the soft and hard caps. Once your Index goes beyond 3 shots higher than your lowest index in the last year, any extra increases are halved. This continues until your Index is 5 higher than your lowest in the last year, and then no more increases (this is the hard cap)


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## sweaty sock (Dec 16, 2020)

So the 2 69s are calculating +4.2 as the calc is something like best score minus 3.... when you only use 3 rounds (or something like that...)

Thats a ridiculous situation to be in. 

Its going to get worse too, as you"ll grind to a complete stop at 1.2!


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## Swango1980 (Dec 16, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Just when I thought I was on the road to sorting out the mess that is my new handicap with the help of "general play" scores to represent my current level, I have discovered that I am now falling foul of this "Low Handicap Index" and "Soft Cap" malarkey. 🤔🤪

Despite being off 0.5, ie 1, at close of play on 1st November, 2 of my early counting rounds towards WHS are both 69, this has somehow given me a Low Handicap Index of -4.2.  Yes, a fast-approaching-middle-aged-man doing his best to play off 1, never better than scratch, has been decreed by WHS to have the figure of Plus4.2 affecting his handicap...

The problem this is causing is that once I reached plus1.2, any further upwards adjustment is halved.  So when the first 69 was replaced by a 74, a differential of 4.4 divided by 8, instead of going up 0.6, I only went up 0.3.   So basically I'm now only going up half what I should do based on some ridiculously arbitrary figure of plus4.2 that does not in any shape or form represent the level of golf that I have ever been anywhere near.
		
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-4.2 is mega impressive. You must have had an average of your best 8 scores out of 20 coming to -4.2? For players with fewer than 20 scores, and especially those with only 3 or 4, one good round can provide a very low index as there is not enough to go on. However, the low index shouldn't take hold until a player has 20 scores. For example, my mates playing history has him with an Index of +2.0 after 5 rounds in his history, in May 2018. In May 2019 his Index was shown as 3.3, although still not with 20 scores yet.


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## jim8flog (Dec 16, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Just when I thought I was on the road to sorting out the mess that is my new handicap with the help of "general play" scores to represent my current level, I have discovered that I am now falling foul of this "Low Handicap Index" and "Soft Cap" malarkey. 🤔🤪

Despite being off 0.5, ie 1, at close of play on 1st November, 2 of my early counting rounds towards WHS are both 69, this has somehow given me a Low Handicap Index of -4.2.  Yes, a fast-approaching-middle-aged-man doing his best to play off 1, never better than scratch, has been decreed by WHS to have the figure of Plus4.2 affecting his handicap...

The problem this is causing is that once I reached plus1.2, any further upwards adjustment is halved.  So when the first 69 was replaced by a 74, a differential of 4.4 divided by 8, instead of going up 0.6, I only went up 0.3.   So basically I'm now only going up half what I should do based on some ridiculously arbitrary figure of plus4.2 that does not in any shape or form represent the level of golf that I have ever been anywhere near.
		
Click to expand...


It is worth bearing in mind that soft and hard caps are done on a 365 day rolling basis so when those early really good scores fall out of the 365 days your Low Handicap Index may reset to something more representative.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 16, 2020)

Traminator said:



			No this is what I don't get, the average of the best 8 was nowhere near -4.2 after 20 scores. My HI after 20 was -1.2, but this included some duff info input somewhere along the line in 2 separate county comps, by my calcs it should have been about -0.6, give or take depending on rounding.

Any idea how long this Low Handicap Index is valid? 1 of the 69s has already dropped off.
		
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Once your 20th score was entered, that is when the Low Index is set / starts. Following that, your soft and hard caps are attached to either that low value (or a lower Index since, which would become your low index). They look back no further than 1 year.

So, in summary, you are saying an Index of -4.2 was never correct, and was based on duff info?


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## jim8flog (Dec 16, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Cool thanks for the info.
Roll on March.
		
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 Made me just re check mine

Realised I have got to go to June 21 before it resets to something more realistic of current form. Mind you one good round in the next 5 and it might only change by one shot. 
The oldest 5 are not in the best 8 but like you they are recorded against the wrong course so appear better than they actually were by 2 shots on every round.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 16, 2020)

Traminator said:



			I'll try and explain it better.

When we changed over systems to WHS, we all then had access to how our previous scores would have looked under WHS.

Due to being abroad, not playing at all for over a year etc, etc, my 1st score in this last 2 year rolling period was March this year, a 69.
As I look down my scoring record, which shows the ever-evolving HI alongside the scores, the figure -4.2 appears.
*Once I reached 20 scores, my HI was -1.1.*
Having last week replaced the initial 69 with a 74, that "never actually was" figure of -4.2 is now only allowing my HI to go up at 50% of the normal rate.

The duff info relates to later scores of 70 and 72 in County comps where the CR and PCC are both too high meaning my differentials for those 2 rounds are too big (under), that is also making my handicap too low but I'm banging my head against a brick wall getting it sorted.
		
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I don't think your -4.2 is your Low Index. From what you say, the -4.2 Index showed on your scoring history next to one of your scores that was part of your 1st 20 scores. The Low Index should not be set until the 20th score is in. So, that value seems to be -1.1 (in bold), which would have been your low index at that point, and then it would only become lower than that if subsequent scores reduced your Index further.

Annoyingly, it doesn't seem like your Low Index is clearly shown on the MyEG App or website. However, when I log into the WHS Portal for club admin, the Low Index value is clearly shown for each player.


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## jim8flog (Dec 16, 2020)

Swango1980 said:



			.

Annoyingly, it doesn't seem like your Low Index is clearly shown on the MyEG App or website. However, when I log into the WHS Portal for club admin, the Low Index value is clearly shown for each player.
		
Click to expand...

Although not shown as a separate figure it is very easy to see on the EG website (personal) it is the lowest figure for the players HI in the last 365 days.


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## Swango1980 (Dec 16, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Oh yes it is.....
And over the weekend I should have dropped from - 1.1 to - 0.5, instead I went to - 0.8.
View attachment 34002

Click to expand...

I'm intrigued in looking at your scoring history to see when the -4.2 was taken from. I'd have thought your handicap secretary could either explain how it is correct, or agree it is in error and be constantly harassing England Golf to sort it if he/she can't themselves


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## MIkeJS (Dec 20, 2020)

What surprises me about the new system is the lack of significant difference to the course handicap between tees and between different clubs. I have played regularly in areas that have used the slope system for a few years, inc in Mauritius last year. In Mauritius there was a 3 stroke difference between the yellow and the white tee.  All the UK clubs I have looked at at the moment, that I am familiar with, have at most a 1 stroke difference for me between the white and yellow tees and many of them are the same. Similarly, when I look at my course handicap for courses I consider to be considerably easier or harder then my home course I see at most a change of 1. In fact on one course I play regularly which is much shorter and easier than my home course I get the same course handicap as my home course and it stays the same off of the whites, yellows and reds!!  There seems to be very little differentiation between our courses and tee positions in England. Is this because for GB&I we calculate  ‘Without Course Rating Minus Par’?


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## Swango1980 (Dec 20, 2020)

MIkeJS said:



			What surprises me about the new system is the lack of significant difference to the course handicap between tees and between different clubs. I have played regularly in areas that have used the slope system for a few years, inc in Mauritius last year. In Mauritius there was a 3 stroke difference between the yellow and the white tee.  All the UK clubs I have looked at at the moment, that I am familiar with, have at most a 1 stroke difference for me between the white and yellow tees and many of them are the same. Similarly, when I look at my course handicap for courses I consider to be considerably easier or harder then my home course I see at most a change of 1. In fact on one course I play regularly which is much shorter and easier than my home course I get the same course handicap as my home course and it stays the same off of the whites, yellows and reds!!  There seems to be very little differentiation between our courses and tee positions in England. Is this because for GB&I we calculate  ‘Without Course Rating Minus Par’?
		
Click to expand...

Yes. And, I'm still not convinced ignoring CR-Par is a good thing.


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## rulefan (Dec 20, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Question on scramble stroke allowances, I know it's 25%, 20%, 15% and 10% from lowest to highest.

If, for example the percentages work out to 2 decimal points, e.g 0.15, 0.45 etc etc, do you add up the numbers as they are or do you round each number to one decimal place before adding?

Thanks.
		
Click to expand...

Round to the nearest whole number. Rule 6.2a


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## rulefan (Dec 20, 2020)

MIkeJS said:



			What surprises me about the new system is the lack of significant difference to the course handicap between tees and between different clubs. I have played regularly in areas that have used the slope system for a few years, inc in Mauritius last year. In Mauritius there was a 3 stroke difference between the yellow and the white tee.  All the UK clubs I have looked at at the moment, that I am familiar with, have at most a 1 stroke difference for me between the white and yellow tees and many of them are the same. Similarly, when I look at my course handicap for courses I consider to be considerably easier or harder then my home course I see at most a change of 1. In fact on one course I play regularly which is much shorter and easier than my home course I get the same course handicap as my home course and it stays the same off of the whites, yellows and reds!!  There seems to be very little differentiation between our courses and tee positions in England. *Is this because for GB&I we calculate  ‘Without Course Rating Minus Par’?*

Click to expand...

The final sentence has nothing to do with Course and Slope Rating. Par is not an element in the worldwide Course Rating System.

IMO it is the fact that the majority of courses in the UK are relatively old. When they were built, shot lengths were nowhere near today's distances. So the distance between the two tees (white and yellow were probably the only ones used at that time) was in today's terms pretty short. Now these courses have very little land to extend tee lengths, whereas new courses in new golfing countries have acres to use. Many of these will have 3 or 4 rated men's tees. 
A large proportion of the course rating is related to length. So two sets of tees with 200 yards difference will only be about 1.5 in the CR.

Further, (CR - Par) is not used in the Handicap Index calculation. 
In practical terms, par is really only used to determine stableford points and by the pro the indicate relative positions during the round.
Of course. par tells you nothing about relative or actual difficulty.


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## rulefan (Dec 20, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Sorry I think we're at cross purposes there.

My question is relating to the allowance for each individual.

For example, handicaps 1, 2, 3 and 4.
25% of 1 = 0.25
20% of 2 = 0.4
15% of 3 = 0.45
10% of 4 = 0.4

What is the team allowance?
		
Click to expand...

The sum of the individual rounded figures. In this case 0


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## rulefan (Dec 20, 2020)

Traminator said:



			The answer I'm looking for from post 2307 is whether the allowances from the Course Handicaps of the guys off 1 and 3 stay as 0.25 and 0.45 or whether they are rounded to one decimal place to be 0.3 and 0.5.

This would be the difference in the team handicap being either 1.5 or 1.6.
		
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No. When rounding is required in the WHS it is always to the nearest *whole number*. The second decimal is irrelevant.
So 0.25 is 0 
and  6.25 is 6  
and 3.61 is 4

The second decimal is irrelevant.


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## jim8flog (Dec 21, 2020)

Traminator said:



View attachment 34078

Sorry you're missing the point here.
Each player's percentage of their CH is added together to make a team "Total Playing Handicap".
The example given in the WHS document only shows percentages that are one decimal point, 25% of 1 is 0.25 and it's not clarified whether this is the player's "Stroke Contribution" or whether it's rounded to 0.3.
		
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Poor choice of numbers in the example

The question has to be does -0.5 round to -1 or zero

If  -0.5 rounds to zero in the numbers they use it does not matter  whether you round before or after it is still 10 . If it rounds to minus 1 then it is the total that is rounded.


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## nickjdavis (Dec 21, 2020)

I understand what you are saying Tram.

The guidance doesn't give a clear example that helps clarify the answer to your question.

I've just set up a scramble in our club software so see how the software currently treats the numbers, and I can confirm that it uses the full decimal calculation (e.g. 2.25) for each player before adding up and then rounding the result to get the team handicap.

(Now, whether this is what is intended by the rules is another matter....but its how things work in practice with our competition software)


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## nickjdavis (Dec 21, 2020)

Here's a screenshot from our system....showing the calculation...

As you can clearly see, if the individual player contributions were rounded to a whole number before adding up, the team handicap would be 12.


.


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## NearHull (Dec 25, 2020)

I read that the Brexit deal was held up for a day when it was discovered that the fishing % allocation of 25% was misinterpreted as 22%. 
if only they had thought to bring in WHS forummers it could have been resolved in hours - admittedly it would have involved pages of of similar threads and repetition of facts - UK golfers have become the ‘go to’ % experts.

(perhaps I should’ve posted this in the Jokes thread - not meaning to upset any contributor.)


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## mikejohnchapman (Dec 25, 2020)

Well it is the season of goodwill so Merry Christmas.

Be interesting to see whether WHS or the new trade deal is a bigger success by the end of 2021!


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## nickjdavis (Dec 26, 2020)

mikejohnchapman said:



			Well it is the season of goodwill so Merry Christmas.

Be interesting to see whether WHS or the new trade deal is a bigger success by the end of 2021!
		
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Believe it or not...my money is on the WHS!!!!


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## harpo_72 (Dec 26, 2020)

They still have not adjusted the calculation for the incorrect tees ... !


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## rulefan (Dec 26, 2020)

harpo_72 said:



			They still have not adjusted the calculation for the incorrect tees ... !
		
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IMO they will resort to doing it on a case by case basis.


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## harpo_72 (Dec 26, 2020)

rulefan said:



			IMO they will resort to doing it on a case by case basis.
		
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Yes or they did a quick pencil Calc and thought too small for the effort ... not to worry works in my favour


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Dec 29, 2020)

I was discussing WHS with my non golfing brother last night. His ex was a golfer, so he does know a bit.
When I got to the 113 measure being the standard, he looked at me a little puzzled.
So, in order to avoid scrolling through 117 pages on this thread, can someone (Rulefan?) explain why WHS use 113 as the standard measure of a golf course's difficulty?
I am slowly getting my head round the new system, can't say I rate it, it seems far too unnecessarily complicated to me.


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## jim8flog (Dec 29, 2020)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			I was discussing WHS with my non golfing brother last night. His ex was a golfer, so he does know a bit.
When I got to the 113 measure being the standard, he looked at me a little puzzled.
So, in order to avoid scrolling through 117 pages on this thread, can someone (Rulefan?) explain why WHS use 113 as the standard measure of a golf course's difficulty?
I am slowly getting my head round the new system, can't say I rate it, it seems far too unnecessarily complicated to me.
		
Click to expand...

  It is a figure plucked out of the air simply because it has to be a number that can be the same, more or less than that number.  They probably got some one with some maths knowledge to run a few trials to find the best number. It is also high enough to have a miniscule effect unless there is quite a deviation from that number.


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## rulefan (Dec 29, 2020)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			I was discussing WHS with my non golfing brother last night. His ex was a golfer, so he does know a bit.
When I got to the 113 measure being the standard, he looked at me a little puzzled.
So, in order to avoid scrolling through 117 pages on this thread, can someone (Rulefan?) explain why WHS use 113 as the standard measure of a golf course's difficulty?
I am slowly getting my head round the new system, can't say I rate it, it seems far too unnecessarily complicated to me.
		
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Jim8flog is right. Knuth originally called it 'standard difficulty'. Although attributed to Knuth there is no evidence that I have seen that he ever used the word average. More recently the average slope is said to be about 118.


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## wjemather (Dec 29, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Jim8flog is right. Knuth originally called it 'standard difficulty'. Although attributed to Knuth there is no evidence that I have seen that he ever used the word average. More recently the average slope is said to be about 118.
		
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I read somewhere that CONGU (or maybe England Golf) reckoned the average slope to be 125 in GB&I (or England).

The standard or neutral slope of 113 is the point at which a set of tees is equally difficult for both the scratch and bogey golfer to play to handicap.

Why 113? Apparently it relates to the gradient of a line graph plotting scores versus handicap on a standard difficulty course (1.13).


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## rulefan (Dec 30, 2020)

wjemather said:



			I read somewhere that CONGU (or maybe England Golf) reckoned the average slope to be 125 in GB&I (or England).

The standard or neutral slope of 113 is the point at which a set of tees is equally difficult for both the scratch and bogey golfer to play to handicap.

Why 113? Apparently it relates to the gradient of a line graph plotting scores versus handicap on a standard difficulty course (1.13).
		
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When the EG transition took place the software was unable to identify a number of courses/tees from the CDH files (either the courses/tees hadn't been set up properly inthe WHS portal by the clubs or had not yet been rated). The software therefore allocated a nominal value of 125 for the slope and 72 for the course rating. These were approximate averages determined from the figures derived from the ratings already done for the men's courses throughout England in the last couple of years.
All other courses in GB&! had already been rated for many years.
I believe the 118 was an unofficial figure estimated from USGA ratings shortly after the implementation of slope.

Yes, the terms used to describe the 113 are 'standard' or 'neutral'.

However, I have never been able to reconcile the following statement  
_'The USGA calculates Slope Rating with the following formula: bogey course rating minus Course Rating, with the result multiplied by 5.381 for men or 4.24 for women.
_with
_'113 is the point at which a set of tees is equally difficult for both the scratch and bogey golfer to play to handicap'._


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## rulefan (Dec 30, 2020)

rulefan said:



_'113 is the point at which a set of tees is equally difficult for both the scratch and bogey golfer to play to handicap'._

Click to expand...

I now have the correct answer. 

_When Knuth introduced the system in 1982, the theoretical average Slope Rating was 113 because USGA data showed that scores go up on average 1.13 strokes per handicap stroke. _

_Dean Knuth invented today's USGA Course Rating and Slope system._


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Dec 30, 2020)

Thank you Rulefan, (and others), that's extremely informative. However, if that was introduced in 1982, (40 years ago virtually), do you think that the difference between a scratch golfer and a bogey golfer in 1982 is the same difference exponentially in 2021? i.e. is there any research, or any proof that the gap has widened or narrowed?


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## rulefan (Dec 30, 2020)

Yorkshire Hacker said:



			Thank you Rulefan, (and others), that's extremely informative. However, if that was introduced in 1982, (40 years ago virtually), do you think that the difference between a scratch golfer and a bogey golfer in 1982 is the same difference exponentially in 2021? i.e. is there any research, or any proof that the gap has widened or narrowed?
		
Click to expand...

If you dig further into this it is suggested that the actual number makes very little difference to the outcome.


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## Yorkshire Hacker (Dec 30, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Im that case I'm not overly convinced you've spelt his surname correctly 😡😅
		
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I had that thought............


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## rulefan (Dec 30, 2020)

Oh ye of little faith.

He didn't invent the transition though.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 31, 2020)

Quick one if I may as I try and get a feel for WHS. 

My HI is 8.4 and round my track my CH is 9 (Slope 125).  To get my CH to 8 I have to get my HI to 8.3.  The oldest round of my 20 had a score differential of 7.6 - so my next counting round will see that go.  The highest SD of my remaining 19 is 10.3.  What SD do i have to get next counting round to get the 0.1 I need to get my HI to 8.3?

Assuming I play all my golf at my ’home’ track I‘m trying to understand what I need to do to achieve any goal I set myself on a round by round basis.  Is there a quick way of working it out - assuming no PCC adjustments are made.


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## Imurg (Dec 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Quick one if I may as I try and get a feel for WHS.

My HI is 8.4 and round my track my CH is 9 (Slope 125).  To get my CH to 8 I have to get my HI to 8.3.  The oldest round of my 20 had a score differential of 7.6 - so my next counting round will see that go.  The highest SD of my remaining 19 is 10.3.  What SD do i have to get next counting round to get the 0.1 I need to get my HI to 8.3?

Assuming I play all my golf at my ’home’ track I‘m trying to understand what I need to do to achieve any goal I set myself on a round by round basis.  Is there a quick way of working it out - assuming no PCC adjustments are made.
		
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I'm not convinced that this is the best way to go..by all means track your scores and know what you need to do if it helps but I think it's just putting more pressure on you.
Knowing that you've got to shoot, say, 5 over par just to keep your index where it is has to put your game under the spotlight even more than normal, especially if you make your 5th bogey on the 12th, you're not playing that well and there's a tricky run of holes coming up
Play the game, score what you score and let the computer work it out for you.
Personally, I wouldn't want to know that I've got to shoot "X" this round or my index goes to "Y", my course handicap goes to "Z" and my 95% takes me somewhere else.


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## rulefan (Dec 31, 2020)

Is the 7.6 round one of your best 8? If so, what it 7th best of the remaining scores?

But as said above, just play your best golf and your true handicap will look after itself.
Did you massage your handicap under CONGU?


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## HampshireHog (Dec 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Quick one if I may as I try and get a feel for WHS.

My HI is 8.4 and round my track my CH is 9 (Slope 125).  To get my CH to 8 I have to get my HI to 8.3.  The oldest round of my 20 had a score differential of 7.6 - so my next counting round will see that go.  The highest SD of my remaining 19 is 10.3.  What SD do i have to get next counting round to get the 0.1 I need to get my HI to 8.3?

Assuming I play all my golf at my ’home’ track I‘m trying to understand what I need to do to achieve any goal I set myself on a round by round basis.  Is there a quick way of working it out - assuming no PCC adjustments are made.
		
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It really depends on the other 7 qualifying SD’s. 6.8 will definitely do it but it could be as high as 7.5.


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## yandabrown (Dec 31, 2020)

Traminator said:



			You need to beat the worst of your best 8 by 1 shot.
Divide that 1 shot by 8, voila, roughly 0.1 lower average.
		
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We can be more precise than that as we know that the 20th score with a differential of 7.6 is going, so the answer is a score differential of 6.6 surely?


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## HampshireHog (Dec 31, 2020)

As per my previous post knowing the other SD's is important as they can sit between a specific range.



When the 7.6 drops off SIL needs to have a new SD of 6.8 to 7.5 to reduce his HI by .1 but 6.8 will guarantee it.


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## doublebogey7 (Dec 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Quick one if I may as I try and get a feel for WHS.

My HI is 8.4 and round my track my CH is 9 (Slope 125).  To get my CH to 8 I have to get my HI to 8.3.  The oldest round of my 20 had a score differential of 7.6 - so my next counting round will see that go.  The highest SD of my remaining 19 is 10.3.  What SD do i have to get next counting round to get the 0.1 I need to get my HI to 8.3?

Assuming I play all my golf at my ’home’ track I‘m trying to understand what I need to do to achieve any goal I set myself on a round by round basis.  Is there a quick way of working it out - assuming no PCC adjustments are made.
		
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I'm not sure you've done the CH correctly.  If the slope is 125,  (8.3/113x125=9.2) then by my calculation to get a CH of 8,  you would need to have a HI of 7.6.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Dec 31, 2020)

Traminator said:



			Well, from what he actually wrote we don't know what the highest of the current best 8 is.

However, as he has a HI of 8.4, it would be logical that the 7.6 is in the best 8, so yes, 6.6 or better gets a reduction. Well spotted 👍
		
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Thanks all for having a go for me.  For clarification.  7.6 is one of my best 8 from last 20 but as it is the oldest of my 20 it will be dropped when I next play a counting round.  My current best SD is 6.7 and worst is 10.3.  Next best SD in the remaining 19 is another 10.3.

Also i have checked and I was mistaken - I have to get my HI down to 7.6 to have a CH of 8.  I got the 8.3 from the conversion board now fixed to wall outside of clubhouse - and I read our Blue tees (which we as gents don’t in general use).

Anyway.  Question remains around what I have to score to reduce my HI by 0.1 then the additional question is can I get to a HI of 7.6 in one round of golf?

I am coming to the conclusion that there actually isn’t a quick and simple way to work this out in my head...next thing I have to work out is what I have to score to stay at 8.4...and tbh I don’t know that I can be bothered doing this every time before I go out.

But it sounds like a SD of 6.8 will get me 0.1 cut in my HI though I need a fair bit more to get to a HI of 7.6. Though not yet sorted out what sort of single score I’d have to shoot to do that...probably knocking it round in level...🙄😂


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## Deleted member 3432 (Dec 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thanks all for having a go for me.  For clarification.  7.6 is one of my best 8 from last 20 but as it is the oldest of my 20 it will be dropped when I next play a counting round.  My current best SD is 6.7 and worst is 10.3.  Next best SD in the remaining 19 is another 10.3.

Also i have checked and I was mistaken - I have to get my HI down to 7.6 to have a CH of 8.  I got the 8.3 from the conversion board now fixed to wall outside of clubhouse - and I read our Blue tees (which we as gents don’t in general use).

Anyway.  Question remains around what I have to score to reduce my HI by 0.1 then the additional question is can I get to a HI of 7.6 in one round of golf?

I am coming to the conclusion that there actually isn’t a quick and simple way to work this out in my head...
		
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Knock it round 2 under, that should do the trick without the need for complicated maths 

Bit of self belief, you know you can do it.


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## jim8flog (Dec 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I am coming to the conclusion that there actually isn’t a quick and simple way to work this out in my head...next thing I have to work out is what I have to score to stay at 8.4...and tbh I don’t know that I can be bothered doing this every time before I go out.
		
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Is the answer


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## wjemather (Dec 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thanks all for having a go for me.  For clarification.  7.6 is one of my best 8 from last 20 but as it is the oldest of my 20 it will be dropped when I next play a counting round.  My current best SD is 6.7 and worst is 10.3.  Next best SD in the remaining 19 is another 10.3.

Also i have checked and I was mistaken - I have to get my HI down to 7.6 to have a CH of 8.  I got the 8.3 from the conversion board now fixed to wall outside of clubhouse - and I read our Blue tees (which we as gents don’t in general use).

Anyway.  Question remains around what I have to score to reduce my HI by 0.1 then the additional question is can I get to a HI of 7.6 in one round of golf?

I am coming to the conclusion that there actually isn’t a quick and simple way to work this out in my head...next thing I have to work out is what I have to score to stay at 8.4...and tbh I don’t know that I can be bothered doing this every time before I go out.

But it sounds like a SD of 6.8 will get me 0.1 cut in my HI though I need a fair bit more to get to a HI of 7.6. Though not yet sorted out what sort of single score I’d have to shoot to do that...probably knocking it round in level...🙄😂
		
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For a 0.1 reduction you will simply need to better your 20th score by one stroke. To come down from 8.4 to 7.6, I'd estimate you will need to beat your 20th score by 7 strokes (which would also generate an additional exceptional score reduction of 1.0).

If your 20th score wasn't counting, then you'd need to better your highest counting score by the same.


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## rosecott (Dec 31, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thanks all for having a go for me.  For clarification.  7.6 is one of my best 8 from last 20 but as it is the oldest of my 20 it will be dropped when I next play a counting round.  My current best SD is 6.7 and worst is 10.3.  Next best SD in the remaining 19 is another 10.3.

Also i have checked and I was mistaken - I have to get my HI down to 7.6 to have a CH of 8.  I got the 8.3 from the conversion board now fixed to wall outside of clubhouse - and I read our Blue tees (which we as gents don’t in general use).

Anyway.  Question remains around what I have to score to reduce my HI by 0.1 then the additional question is can I get to a HI of 7.6 in one round of golf?

I am coming to the conclusion that there actually isn’t a quick and simple way to work this out in my head...next thing I have to work out is what I have to score to stay at 8.4...and tbh I don’t know that I can be bothered doing this every time before I go out.

But it sounds like a SD of 6.8 will get me 0.1 cut in my HI though I need a fair bit more to get to a HI of 7.6. Though not yet sorted out what sort of single score I’d have to shoot to do that...probably knocking it round in level...🙄😂
		
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If you post a screenshot of your scores from the WHS platform, it would be very simple to tell you what you need to score. You can always redact your name.


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## Wabinez (Dec 31, 2020)

There does seem to be a lot of overthinking going in.

Register for score, go out, play the best you can - see what the adjustment is.

I did a score on Xmas eve - was +5 thru 3 holes and my playing partners laughing at me for choosing to put a card in.

shot -1 from then on to record a 76. index didn’t change mind, despite it replacing a 77 😂


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## wjemather (Dec 31, 2020)

Traminator said:



			SILH, I don't get what you don't get 🙂

Your HI is the average of the best 8 Differentials of your last 20.

If you are just about to lose a counting 80, and you replace it with a 72, the total of your best 8 is now 8 shots lower.   Divide that by 8 and you've reduced your HI by 1 shot.

If you want to reduce by 0.5, you need to replace a score you're losing by a score 4 shots better.

If you lose a 20th score that's counting and you shoot higher, it will be replaced by the next best in your last 20, which will either be what you've just scored or your previous 9th best that is now your 8th best.
		
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That's ok for a rough estimate, but it's not quite as simple as that due to Course and Slope Ratings, rounding in the various calculations, and values of the other counting differentials.


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## rulefan (Dec 31, 2020)

wjemather said:



			That's ok for a rough estimate, but it's not quite as simple as that due to Course and Slope Ratings, rounding in the various calculations, and values of the other counting differentials.
		
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Did you really go through this sort of process to adjust your handicap pre WHS?


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## wjemather (Dec 31, 2020)

rulefan said:



			Did you really go through this sort of process to adjust your handicap pre WHS?
		
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UHS didn't require any such calculation.

Out of interest, earlier this year (lockdown) I designed a simple spreadsheet to easily track/predict WHS indices. It also proved useful in preparing our members for WHS in the absence of England Golf's promised advance preview.


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## rulefan (Dec 31, 2020)

wjemather said:



			UHS didn't require any such calculation.

Out of interest, earlier this year (lockdown) I designed a simple spreadsheet to easily track/predict WHS indices. It also proved useful in preparing our members for WHS in the absence of England Golf's promised advance preview.
		
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I meant did you target a specific value that you wanted your handicap to be.


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## wjemather (Dec 31, 2020)

rulefan said:



			I meant did you target a specific value that you wanted your handicap to be.
		
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Occasionally; usually only when within reach of a milestone.


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## IanM (Jan 1, 2021)

All this maths talk is just to get to the point where you know what you need to shoot to avoid "going up."

PRE WHS we knew what we needed to shoot to buffer... now its more complicated


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## SammmeBee (Jan 1, 2021)

IanM said:



			All this maths talk is just to get to the point where you know what you need to shoot to avoid "going up."

PRE WHS we knew what we needed to shoot to buffer... now its more complicated
		
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Now you just play and it is what it is.....


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jan 1, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			Now you just play and it is what it is.....
		
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Which is in my view the big advantage of WHS - previously all qualifying rounds counted in a quite significant and easily understood way - so we knew what to score for specific outcomes. And somthe rounds mattered. With WHS it is so much e@sier to just play the round and Chuck it into my 20:round pot - and what will happen will happen - and most of the time that wont be very much.


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## SammmeBee (Jan 1, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is in my view the big advantage of WHS - previously all qualifying rounds counted in a quite significant and easily understood way - so we knew what to score for specific outcomes. And somthe rounds mattered. With WHS it is so much e@sier to just play the round and Chuck it into my 20:round pot - and what will happen will happen - and most of the time that wont be very much.
		
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It is what is is......play bad and go up (hopefully).....then play better and (win?!?!?) get cut.....


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## wjemather (Jan 1, 2021)

IanM said:



			All this maths talk is just to get to the point where you know what you need to shoot to avoid "going up."

PRE WHS we knew what we needed to shoot to buffer... now its more complicated
		
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Not really. If your 20th score differential is counting (otherwise it doesn't matter), to avoid going up you simply need to match it. Very simple to work out if you are playing the same tees and fairly easy to adjust if not.

It's working out what you might need to come down to a target that is more complicated.


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## IanM (Jan 1, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			Now you just play and it is what it is.....
		
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Absolutely...or your head hurts too much to play


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## jim8flog (Jan 1, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Which is in my view the big advantage of WHS - previously all qualifying rounds counted in a quite significant and easily understood way - so we knew what to score for specific outcomes. And somthe rounds mattered. With WHS it is so much e@sier to just play the round and Chuck it into my 20:round pot - and what will happen will happen - and most of the time that wont be very much.
		
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 This is very much my philosophy I pretty much know that in the next 5 rounds unless I produce something well below my handicap nothing is going to change.

However as far as I generally am concerned my may concern with any round is  'am I playing well enough to win'. I let the handicap take care of itself as even with the current system it is not going to change by more than a shot.


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## rulefan (Jan 1, 2021)

Yes. I thought handicapping was about your general standard on good days. It you want to reduce it, play better more often. 
Do players really go out an say 'I will play exactly 3 under net today, I don't need to play 4 under'?


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## rulefan (Jan 1, 2021)

Traminator said:



			If your course is reduced to 14 holes during winter, can you put in general play scores (supplementaries) that will be used?
		
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*Guidance on the WHS Rules of Handicapping as applied within GB&I*
For a score to be acceptable as an 18-hole score at least 10 holes of the measured course must have been played. _Scores of between 10 and 17 holes are scaled up to an 18-hole equivalent gross differential in accordance with Rule 3.2._


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## wjemather (Jan 1, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Yes. I thought handicapping was about your general standard on good days. It you want to reduce it, play better more often.
Do players really go out an say 'I will play exactly 3 under net today, I don't need to play 4 under'?
		
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Of course not. But I can't imagine playing a competitive round without setting myself a target... and then adjusting it as the round goes on.


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## jim8flog (Jan 13, 2021)

Traminator said:



			My last score input was in mid December and my handicap was adjusted accordingly.

In the past couple of days I've dropped 0.1 😅

WTF??
		
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 January honours list?


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## jim8flog (Jan 13, 2021)

Traminator said:



			I would have preferred an increase 😉
		
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I know what you mean.

Funny thing for me 2020 was in the main a poor year golf wise for me. The last card I managed to get in before we had a run of non qs took me from 9.8 to 10.5.

Looking forward to 2021 no more committee and hassle for me so can work on my game without other players chasing me up on the first tee with their handicap problems .


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 16, 2021)

@rulefan ,one you may know about with your Yorkshire hat on. I'm going to be playing in a Rabbits open, hopefully, this year. The cut off is 16. One player in the group of us going down has a HI of 16, on course at our place 18. His on course handicap at the venue is likely to be 18 as well. 

Are Rabbits taking the cut off as HI or on course for the venue? If HI then effectively they will have increased the cut off to around 17, not 16. 

I've emailed the organisers to see their approach but I'm interested to know if you are aware of a county wide decision on this. The guy may not get cut before we go down but if it is based on HI then he is clearly on the edge right now.


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## rulefan (Jan 16, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



@rulefan ,one you may know about with your Yorkshire hat on. I'm going to be playing in a Rabbits open, hopefully, this year. The cut off is 16. One player in the group of us going down has a HI of 16, on course at our place 18. His on course handicap at the venue is likely to be 18 as well.

Are Rabbits taking the cut off as HI or on course for the venue? If HI then effectively they will have increased the cut off to around 17, not 16.

I've emailed the organisers to see their approach but I'm interested to know if you are aware of a county wide decision on this. The guy may not get cut before we go down but if it is based on HI then he is clearly on the edge right now.
		
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The Yorkshire Rabbits Association (YRGA) is split into 6 Areas which don't directly correspond the the YUGC Districts. I am no longer involved in our club rabbits' committee or the area but my understanding is that the various areas are arranging meetings to form a common view for the county. I am not aware that any decision has been made but the vibes suggest it will be based on the Index probably set at 15.5. But I have no hard knowledge. I will do a bit of digging.


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## 2blue (Jan 17, 2021)

rulefan said:



			The Yorkshire Rabbits Association (YRGA) is split into 6 Areas which don't directly correspond the the YUGC Districts. I am no longer involved in our club rabbits' committee or the area but my understanding is that the various areas are arranging meetings to form a common view for the county. I am not aware that any decision has been made but the vibes suggest it will be based on the Index probably set at 15.5. But I have no hard knowledge. I will do a bit of digging.
		
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Got this early Jan from our Club Rabbit Captain.
I guess Club's Opens should follow suit. Where are you playing?
“For the purpose of the Yorkshire Rabbit Golf Association, a Rabbit Golfer shall be a male playing member of the age of 18 years or over with a Handicap Index of 15 or greater”


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## 2blue (Jan 17, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Burrowing 😉
		
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Or Scraping🤓🤓


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 17, 2021)

2blue said:



			Got this early Jan from our Club Rabbit Captain.
I guess Club's Opens should follow suit. Where are you playing?
“For the purpose of the Yorkshire Rabbit Golf Association, a Rabbit Golfer shall be a male playing member of the age of 18 years or over with a Handicap Index of 15 or greater”
		
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It was me who asked the question. Knaresborough in May.

Your post makes sense 👍


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## SammmeBee (Jan 17, 2021)

2blue said:



			Got this early Jan from our Club Rabbit Captain.
I guess Club's Opens should follow suit. Where are you playing?
“For the purpose of the Yorkshire Rabbit Golf Association, a Rabbit Golfer shall be a male playing member of the age of 18 years or over with a Handicap Index of 15 or greater”
		
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So the 14.9s are out?


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## rulefan (Jan 17, 2021)

2blue said:



			“For the purpose of the Yorkshire Rabbit Golf Association, a Rabbit Golfer shall be a male playing member of the age of 18 years or over with a Handicap Index of 15 or greater”
		
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Interesting. Our Rabbit Sec hasn't had anything from the YRGA and there is nothing on the website that I can see


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## 2blue (Jan 17, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			It was me who asked the question. Knaresborough in May.

Your post makes sense 👍
		
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Dooh.....  fingers not working right....  good luck 👍


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## 2blue (Jan 17, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			So the 14.9s are out?
		
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That's how it reads....  guess you have to draw a line somewhere. Was 16 previously. 🤔


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## 2blue (Jan 17, 2021)

Leeds Tigers used to be 8 to 15. Now will be HI 6 to 14.5. 
Yeah, not sure why not 14.9 🤔🤔


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 17, 2021)

2blue said:



			Dooh.....  fingers not working right....  good luck 👍
		
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Cheers. It's one of my favourite courses/clubs to play at so this is all about a smashing day out and a chance to play it for £14. I want to play well, who doesn't, but prizes are not in the thought process 😁.


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## 3offTheTee (Jan 17, 2021)

2blue said:



			Or Scraping🤓🤓
		
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Rulefan never came over to me as somebody that would want a scrap.


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## jim8flog (Jan 17, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Burrowing 😉
		
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2blue said:



			Or Scraping🤓🤓
		
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 these rabbits are breeding like normal


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## rulefan (Jan 17, 2021)

2blue said:



			“For the purpose of the Yorkshire Rabbit Golf Association, a Rabbit Golfer shall be a male playing member of the age of 18 years or over with a Handicap Index of 15 or greater”
		
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Spot on.
I have just had official confirmation from the YRGA sec.

It appears that an alternative definition was overwhelmingly outvoted.
_" .............................with a Handicap Index that produces a Course Handicap of 16 and over off the Yellow Tees at his Home Club"_


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## 2blue (Jan 17, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Spot on.
I have just had official confirmation from the YRGA sec.

It appears that an alternative definition was overwhelmingly outvoted.
_" .............................with a Handicap Index that produces a Course Handicap of 16 and over off the Yellow Tees at his Home Club"_

Click to expand...

We had a similar Tigers proposal put forward for it to be CH off Whites. Was eventually overturned.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jan 17, 2021)

2blue said:



			Got this early Jan from our Club Rabbit Captain.
I guess Club's Opens should follow suit. Where are you playing?
“For the purpose of the Yorkshire Rabbit Golf Association, a Rabbit Golfer shall be a male playing member of the age of 18 years or over with a Handicap Index of 15 or greater”
		
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On what date? booking or competition?

Going to be interesting as handicap indexes will move around more than in the past.


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## rulefan (Jan 17, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			On what date? booking or competition?

Going to be interesting as handicap indexes will move around more than in the past.
		
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Rabbits is more about inter club matches so has historically been the date of play. 
Eligibility for club hosted opens is normally down to the club and would be specified on the entry form.


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## 2blue (Jan 18, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			On what date? booking or competition?

Going to be interesting as handicap indexes will move around more than in the past.
		
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Your right there!!
Our Club's Tiger matches are on a Wed night with Rabbits on a Thursday so as teams are usually picked quite a few days before to give players a chance to sort their availability, there could well be eligibility issues resulting from player's scores in the Mon Seniors & wed Mid-week comps. Yes, there was always necessary to 'self-adjust' in the past but under WHS H/cap shifts could be greater. A bit of an organizational dilemma for Team Captains.


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## rulefan (Jan 18, 2021)

2blue said:



			but under WHS H/cap shifts could be greater.
		
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Not so sure about that. More frequently, possibly.


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## sweaty sock (Jan 18, 2021)

For WHS I was under the impression that the goal was for HI to be updated daily.  Is this the case or is it updated after ever round is uploaded?


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## jim8flog (Jan 18, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			For WHS I was under the impression that the goal was for HI to be updated daily.  Is this the case or is it updated after ever round is uploaded?
		
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Your WHS record will only update/change after you submit a qualifying score.

The WHS as a whole updates daily.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jan 18, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Not so sure about that. More frequently, possibly.
		
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I don't have the statistics to back it up but certainly handicap indexes can rise quite quickly under WHS. In the period between the 2 lockdowns (basically December) we have had people hit both the soft cap (+3 shots) and one even hit the hard cap (+5 shots). Don't think that happened under UHS.


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## rulefan (Jan 18, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I don't have the statistics to back it up but certainly handicap indexes can rise quite quickly under WHS. In the period between the 2 lockdowns (basically December) we have had people hit both the soft cap (+3 shots) and one even hit the hard cap (+5 shots). Don't think that happened under UHS.
		
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UHS went up after any poor score. WHS only if an old good score falls out of the last 20.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jan 18, 2021)

I get how it works - knocking mid summer scores out by mid winter scores has the effect of putting your HI up believe me.


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## IanM (Jan 18, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I get how it works - knocking mid summer scores out by mid winter scores has the effect of putting your HI up believe me.
		
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And vice versa for all the old boys who put in 279 qualifying cards in a calendar year!


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## rulefan (Jan 19, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I get how it works - knocking mid summer scores out by mid winter scores has the effect of putting your HI up believe me.
		
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It depends on how many good scores you have recorded prior to the winter. But how/where have you managed to gain the experience since November?


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## jim8flog (Jan 19, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I don't have the statistics to back it up but certainly handicap indexes can rise quite quickly under WHS. In the period between the 2 lockdowns (basically December) we have had people hit both the soft cap (+3 shots) and one even hit the hard cap (+5 shots). Don't think that happened under UHS.
		
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I would agree with this.  On a personal basis I went  from 8 to 9.8 in the period mid June to mid October and that was summer scores knocking off winter scores.


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## rulefan (Jan 19, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			I would agree with this.  On a personal basis I went  from 8 to 9.8 in the period mid June to mid October and that was summer scores knocking off winter scores.
		
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How did you manage that under WHS? It didn't start til November.


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## nickjdavis (Jan 19, 2021)

rulefan said:



			How did you manage that under WHS? It didn't start til November.
		
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It might not have started until November but players records clearly show historical calculations of changes in index based on their historical scores going ack to Jan 2018.


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## sweaty sock (Jan 19, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Your WHS record will only update/change after you submit a qualifying score.

The WHS as a whole updates daily.
		
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So if I play a morning round, my handicap could change for the afternoon, or would it be like the good old days where I have to self adjust? 

Self adjustment could be more complicated than adding 0.1!


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## rulefan (Jan 19, 2021)

Traminator said:



			In the past some same-day 36 hole comps stipulated cuts after the 1st round, others said we play all 36 off the same handicap.

As WHS updates overnight now, logic has me guessing that same-day 36 hole comps will all be played off the initial starting handicap, and we won't see changes until the next day.
		
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CONGU has always recommended that 36 hole comps be played off the same handicap for result purposes but handicap adjustments must be made independently for each round.
I have never seen a 36 hole comp where caps were adjusted between rounds but no doubt it happened somewhere. 
Your logic would seem to be correct. In fact I'm not sure how a change in cap between rounds would be managed in the WHS/ISV software


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## jim8flog (Jan 19, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			So if I play a morning round, my handicap could change for the afternoon, or would it be like the good old days where I have to self adjust?

Self adjustment could be more complicated than adding 0.1!
		
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You have never been allowed to self adjust upwards.  Self adjustment was a must for downwards only.

With the WHS your handicap stays the same all day.  Self adjustment does not need to be done any time. Whatever the WHS says on the day that is the handicap for the day even if they should have adjusted it and have not.


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## jim8flog (Jan 19, 2021)

rulefan said:



			How did you manage that under WHS? It didn't start til November.
		
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I am just quoting my WHS record which obviously goes back to Jan 2018. I presume all caps will be based upon that record and not have a start date of 2nd November 2020. 

When it came in the low index on my handicap record was 8 and not  9.8  which was my initial H.I..


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## rulefan (Jan 19, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			I am just quoting my WHS record which obviously goes back to Jan 2018. I presume all caps will be based upon that record and not have a start date of 2nd November 2020.

When it came in the low index on my handicap record was 8 and not  9.8  which was my initial H.I..
		
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Ok.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jan 19, 2021)

2blue said:



			Got this early Jan from our Club Rabbit Captain.
I guess Club's Opens should follow suit. Where are you playing?
“For the purpose of the Yorkshire Rabbit Golf Association, a Rabbit Golfer shall be a male playing member of the age of 18 years or over with a Handicap Index of 15 or greater”
		
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Just had an email back from the club and they are doing exactly as you quote. A HI of 15 will be the cut off.


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## mikejohnchapman (Jan 19, 2021)

rulefan said:



			It depends on how many good scores you have recorded prior to the winter. But how/where have you managed to gain the experience since November?
		
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I'm not sure what you meant. I am the Handicap Chairman at my club so I see the scores on a daily basis. 

My experience - other than living with WHS for the last couple of years - has been working with members to explain why their handicap has not gone up as much as they thought due to the soft cap gearing and eventually the hard cap maximum.

Many of our seniors have got used to putting in 3 or 4 cards a week so their playing records are quite dynamic. The played who hit the hard cap had a number of good scores from summer 2018 which got flushed by the 10 scores in December and he hit the hard cap just before lockdown 3. 

It is not unusual for our members - particularly our seniors - to put in 1 or 2 competition cards and 2 or more general play rounds per week. We had several players who had 50+ rounds between lockdown 1 and WHS golive.


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## rulefan (Jan 19, 2021)

mikejohnchapman said:



			I'm not sure what you meant. I am the Handicap Chairman at my club so I see the scores on a daily basis.

My experience - other than living with WHS for the last couple of years - has been working with members to explain why their handicap has not gone up as much as they thought due to the soft cap gearing and eventually the hard cap maximum.

Many of our seniors have got used to putting in 3 or 4 cards a week so their playing records are quite dynamic. The played who hit the hard cap had a number of good scores from summer 2018 which got flushed by the 10 scores in December and he hit the hard cap just before lockdown 3.

It is not unusual for our members - particularly our seniors - to put in 1 or 2 competition cards and 2 or more general play rounds per week. We had several players who had 50+ rounds between lockdown 1 and WHS golive.
		
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I am impressed by their diligence


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## sweaty sock (Jan 20, 2021)

rulefan said:



			CONGU has always recommended that 36 hole comps be played off the same handicap for result purposes but handicap adjustments must be made independently for each round.
I have never seen a 36 hole comp where caps were adjusted between rounds but no doubt it happened somewhere.
Your logic would seem to be correct. In fact I'm not sure how a change in cap between rounds would be managed in the WHS/ISV software
		
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Thanks all, every 36 hole I've ever played has maintained the same handicap throughout, not that it normally matters as they're normally gross competitions.  I was more interested in its potential impact on the rabbits stuff being talked about.  Could someone have been in with a handicap of 15.0, then put a card in from a morning practice round and by the afternoon rabbits match be 13.8 (for example). If it updates overnight then that clears it up.


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## rulefan (Jan 20, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			If it updates overnight .....
		
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It does.

But I wonder how the two club handle the match handicap (ie strokes received) in a match. Eg if in the morning the player had a starting CH of 17 (Index say 15.1) for the general round but as a result in the pm match his CH (Index say 14.2) would have come down by a stroke.


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## jim8flog (Jan 20, 2021)

rulefan said:



			It does.

But I wonder how the two club handle the match handicap (ie strokes received) in a match. Eg if in the morning the player had a starting CH of 17 (Index say 15.1) for the general round but as a result in the pm match his CH (Index say 14.2) would have come down by a stroke.
		
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 The Handicap Index stays the same all day regardless of any scores input earlier in the day. The club should not be doing anything.


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## rulefan (Jan 21, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			The Handicap Index stays the same all day regardless of any scores input earlier in the day. The club should not be doing anything.
		
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Yes, I would agree. So in effect it is a daylong Handicap (Index).


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## sweaty sock (Jan 24, 2021)

So Mardy Fish is averaging 40 points a round in his attempt to gain a third,  prestigious pro am event.  

Call me a nay-sayer but sandbagging much... 

Desperately hope the EGU give local handicap sec's the tools clamp down harder than the US lot do.


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## anotherdouble (Jan 24, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			So Mardy Fish is averaging 40 points a round in his attempt to gain a third,  prestigious pro am event. 

Call me a nay-sayer but sandbagging much...

Desperately hope the EGU give local handicap sec's the tools clamp down harder than the US lot do.
		
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It’s not proper stableford Scoring. Something like 5pts eagle, 4 points birdie etc.


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## anotherdouble (Jan 24, 2021)

Traminator said:



			0 double or worse
1 bogey
2 par
3 birdie 🐦
5 eagle 🦅
10 albatross

He looks scratch-ish, but beating Annika by miles and she's miles better than scratch so not sure what's going on with the strokes.
		
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Pro tennis player. If they off the same tee then he could be 50 yards ahead. Am only surmising.


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## sweaty sock (Jan 24, 2021)

Ahh, I stand corrected.


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## sweaty sock (Jan 24, 2021)

Hes beating the rest of the amatuers by a country mile too!


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## anotherdouble (Jan 24, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Mardy Fish just had 241 to the pin and casually faded a soft-landing fairway wood to about 15 foot...😱

Wow.
		
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That’s why he even beating Annika


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## anotherdouble (Jan 24, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Incredible, just wish they would show the handicaps.
If he's 1,for example, he might be getting 3 shots per round?
		
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They just had a quick segment where they introduced themselves but handicaps not mentioned.


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## anotherdouble (Jan 24, 2021)

C


Traminator said:



			Incredible, just wish they would show the handicaps.
If he's 1,for example, he might be getting 3 shots per round?
		
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ant find his handicap, but he nearly made it past final stage in Korn Ferry q school and he played with Jack at his course and he shot 6 under for 9 holes  Smoltz plays off +2.8


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## sweaty sock (Jan 24, 2021)

That makes it worse, if he's that low his handicap should be under massive scrutiny?!

I can accept hes on form, but winning it for a third time?!


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## sweaty sock (Jan 24, 2021)

That would remove all my worries!


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## sweaty sock (Jan 25, 2021)

While digging I've not been able to find anything about wether its gross or not, but did discover the celebrity event has a first prize of $100k!  That the vast majority of celebrities are pro's to enable them to recieve prize money, so now Im totally confused as to what the format could be!!


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## Imurg (Feb 4, 2021)

I'm getting quite good at this golf thing it seems......
Managed to get the handicap cut overnight..another 0.3 nearer scratch and I haven't hit a ball in a month....or put a card in for 3 months.
Hell, at this rate if I don't play for 18 months I will be off scratch...
Anyone else been adjusted recently...without playing?


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## IanM (Feb 4, 2021)

Be careful.   The WHS police might report you for breaking lockdown


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## patricks148 (Feb 4, 2021)

Nairn have now decided to recalc all the new handicaps themselves, SG keep using the wrong tee/Slope/CR so some are way off. Slow dave has gone back to his orig of 3 was down to 1 in the WHS and another guy i know the same but went to 0. not done mine yet, as doing it alphabetical


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## rulefan (Feb 4, 2021)

Imurg said:



			I'm getting quite good at this golf thing it seems......
Managed to get the handicap cut overnight..another 0.3 nearer scratch and I haven't hit a ball in a month....or put a card in for 3 months.
Hell, at this rate if I don't play for 18 months I will be off scratch...
Anyone else been adjusted recently...without playing?
		
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Quite a few I imagine. DotGolf and EG are still working through adjustments (ie corrections).


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## AliMc (Feb 4, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			Nairn have now decided to recalc all the new handicaps themselves, SG keep using the wrong tee/Slope/CR so some are way off. Slow dave has gone back to his orig of 3 was down to 1 in the WHS and another guy i know the same but went to 0. not done mine yet, as doing it alphabetical
		
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Have to say that after a couple of initial tweeks mine is correct, played 4 GP rounds so far using the SG App, have to say it has worked perfectly and is super slick, didn't think I would be saying that !


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## patricks148 (Feb 4, 2021)

AliMc said:



			Have to say that after a couple of initial tweeks mine is correct, played 4 GP rounds so far using the SG App, have to say it has worked perfectly and is super slick, didn't think I would be saying that !
		
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this wasn't anything to do with the WHS as such only that SG had used the wrong tee and S?CR to work out some of the handicaps, despite the club raising this with them, they failed to get it right sev times.


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## rulefan (Feb 4, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Yes, a couple of weeks ago.
Ridiculous that they're making changes but completely ignoring the farcical way county comps were input.
		
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I haven't been involved with particular issue but can you shed some light on how they were input? To what extent do you reckon that these scores will affect the players' Index when serious play resumes?


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## rulefan (Feb 4, 2021)

Traminator said:



			CSS was used as the baseline instead of the CR, and then the PCC was also added, giving a double increase in cases of the CSS going up on the day.

For example, CR 71.5. SSS 72, CSS 75.
They used 75 as the CR AND added the PCC of 3.   As a result, instead of a gross 73 being measured against the (CR plus PCC) =74.5, what's happened is that the 73 has been measured against the (CSS 75 plus the PCC) = 78...!
They've double-dipped, taken account of the difficulty by using the CSS, then adding the difficulty again by adding the PCC.   Absolutely bonkers.

I laid it out that clearly 78 could never be the number by which scores are assessed for handicap when the normal SSS is 72, eventually EG just came back and waffled a load of nonsense and said tough luck, they're not changing anything.

Going forward, if they kept the same method it would mean that all good scores in county competitions would result in ridiculous handicap decreases not in line with normal adjustments on days when, in old money, CSS goes up from SSS.
		
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Thanks. I now remember the issue but I thought they had said it would be resolved for the future. I'll check.


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## rosecott (Feb 4, 2021)

Traminator said:



			CSS was used as the baseline instead of the CR, and then the PCC was also added, giving a double increase in cases of the CSS going up on the day.

For example, CR 71.5. SSS 72, CSS 75.
They used 75 as the CR AND added the PCC of 3.   As a result, instead of a gross 73 being measured against the (CR plus PCC) =74.5, what's happened is that the 73 has been measured against the (CSS 75 plus the PCC) = 78...!
They've double-dipped, taken account of the difficulty by using the CSS, then adding the difficulty again by adding the PCC.   Absolutely bonkers.

I laid it out that clearly 78 could never be the number by which scores are assessed for handicap when the normal SSS is 72, eventually EG just came back and waffled a load of nonsense and said tough luck, they're not changing anything.

Going forward, if they kept the same method it would mean that all good scores in county competitions would result in ridiculous handicap decreases not in line with normal adjustments on days when, in old money, CSS goes up from SSS.
		
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But, surely, CSS will not be a factor going forward. Handicaps will be assessed on the gross scores plus any PCC. CSS no longer exists.


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## rulefan (Feb 4, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Yes.
But during the changeover to calculate current handicaps, they effectively added the PCC twice by not using the correct CR plus PCC, but instead used the CSS plus PCC.

The new equivalent of that would be using the adjusted CR (CR plus PCC) plus the PCC again.
		
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I can't see how that would happen. The data source is quite different. The transition was taken from the CDH format records. New comps data will be from the WHS content of whatever ISV is being used.


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## howbow88 (Feb 4, 2021)

I've gone down too! 9.9 to 9.8  The last round I played was 1 Aug!


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## rulefan (Feb 5, 2021)

Traminator said:



			I'll trust your faith... 🤔 😉
		
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How could it happen as there is no such animal as a CSS calculation now?


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## patricks148 (Feb 5, 2021)

any news on what the playing conditions addition sim to RO and the CSS increasing addition will be for instance when its really windy etc?

the few opens i play tend to be on the tough side conditions wise and are usually RO


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 5, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			any news on what the playing conditions addition sim to RO and the CSS increasing addition will be for instance when its really windy etc?

the few opens i play tend to be on the tough side conditions wise and are usually RO
		
Click to expand...

New category introduced called 'stay in bed.'

PCC will go up like CSS does now but RO is a gonner. The days where you turn up knowing its going to be brutal but at least its not a .1 are over, its going to be there among your 20 scores 🤣


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## patricks148 (Feb 5, 2021)

saving_par said:



			New category introduced called 'stay in bed.'

PCC will go up like CSS does now but RO is a gonner. The days where you turn up knowing its going to be brutal but at least its not a .1 are over, its going to be there among your 20 scores 🤣
		
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a prime example was, i played with a guy  in the Golspie open about 12 years ago, he shot level par gross in a high wind and rain, no one else broke 90, was rO and he got a really good cut, really showed me what a good scratch player could do, 

so the days of only one person breaking 80 and getting a good cut are well and truly gone and those scores won't count for anything any longer


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## D-S (Feb 5, 2021)

The inference from EG is that PCC will not kick in as often as the CSS/SSS change, upwards or downward. It would take a greater deviation from expected scoring for the PCC to come in.


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 5, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			a prime example was, i played with a guy  in the Golspie open about 12 years ago, he shot level par gross in a high wind and rain, no one else broke 90, was rO and he got a really good cut, really showed me what a good scratch player could do,

so the days of only one person breaking 80 and getting a good cut are well and truly gone and those scores won't count for anything any longer
		
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I think its more of a case of player's knowing a cricket score is guaranteed due to conditions so just sacking it off altogether.

I know our secretary thinks doing away with RO is a mistake and will mean days when there are mass withdrawals from comps.


Potential for creating fine weather golfers.....oh thats me already, no wonder I don't play much at Silloth 🤣


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## patricks148 (Feb 5, 2021)

Traminator said:



			For example if it's par/SSS 72 and the PCC is +3 (same as CSS in old money being 75), the gross score of 72 is still measured against 75 like it was in the old days (CSS could never go up more than 3).

The guy's differential for that round will still be worked out based on the gross being 3 under, just under a different system.
		
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So its now called PCC, how does that work?


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 5, 2021)

D-S said:



			The inference from EG is that PCC will not kick in as often as the CSS/SSS change, upwards or downward. It would take a greater deviation from expected scoring for the PCC to come in.
		
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Need to find myself a parkland 50 miles from the coast where a 5 mph wind is storm force sharpish 🤣


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 5, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			So its now called PCC, how does that work?
		
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Similar to CSS but without the RO part and 
designed to penalise windy links tracks 😉


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## patricks148 (Feb 5, 2021)

Club have go to me in the recalc, gone from 4.2 Was 5.0 in the old handicap, now up to 5.2, help in my quest for double figures


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## patricks148 (Feb 5, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Similar to CSS but without the RO part and
designed to penalise windy links tracks 😉
		
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as you say i can just see, lots pulling out of comps when its crap weather, mind you it was frustrating playing bounce games midweek in no wind and sunny / warm, get to Sat and comp day and its blowing a gale


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## Imurg (Feb 5, 2021)

Traminator said:



			I don't really see why people would pull out of comps due to weather any more or less than they would before. 

Under the new system, if we have a bad score and it's nowhere near our best 8, it will never count anyway and just disappear after 20 more scores.
		
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It could knock a counting score out of the 20..


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 5, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			as you say i can just see, lots pulling out of comps when its crap weather, mind you it was frustrating playing bounce games midweek in no wind and sunny / warm, get to Sat and comp day and its blowing a gale

Click to expand...

I guess the positive is if its a nice day midweek you have the option to put a card in.


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## patricks148 (Feb 5, 2021)

Traminator said:



			I don't really see why people would pull out of comps due to weather any more or less than they would before.

Under the new system, if we have a bad score and it's nowhere near our best 8, it will never count anyway and just disappear after 20 more scores.
		
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in the old system at my club anyway, all our scores were from comps, so if it was a medal on Sat most would play regardless, now you can stick a card in when you like, you can pick and choose more when to put cards in. less reliant on the one day a week for that score, you could be right it might not effect too many, but i could def see myself less inclined to go out in all weathers any longer


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 5, 2021)

Traminator said:



			I don't really see why people would pull out of comps due to weather any more or less than they would before.

Under the new system, if we have a bad score and it's nowhere near our best 8, it will never count anyway and just disappear after 20 more scores.
		
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We're not all as consistent as you...


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## patricks148 (Feb 5, 2021)

saving_par said:



			I guess the positive is if its a nice day midweek you have the option to put a card in.
		
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yes thats what i a few of my reg partners will be doing esp in our role ups midweek


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 5, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			in the old system at my club anyway, all our scores were from comps, so if it was a medal on Sat most would play regardless, now you can stick a card in when you like, you can pick and choose more when to put cards in. less reliant on the one day a week for that score, you could be right it might not effect too many, but i could def see myself less inclined to go out in all weathers any longer
		
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Don't mind 35mph wind but I don't leave the house if its raining.

Working shifts and able to play every weekend I may put some cards in midweek. Depends if we are allowed to use the comp tees midweek.


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## Imurg (Feb 5, 2021)

Traminator said:



			That will always be happening on a rolling basis.
Once one of the best 8 becomes the 20th score, it will be replaced by whatever the next best in the top 8 is.  That could be a worse, an equal or a better score if it's beaten today.

For regular players it's going to be a very normal occurrence.
		
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Absolutely but if the chances of matching or beating that 20th score are next to zero some people won't go out..


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 5, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Absolutely but if the chances of matching or beating that 20th score are next to zero some people won't go out..
		
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Especially when you're not hit a ball for a fortnight....


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## Imurg (Feb 5, 2021)

Traminator said:



			The disappearing score isn't just getting replaced by what you score today, it's getting replaced by the next best score, which could be today's with a good score, or more likely something already in the system.
		
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If your 8th counting score is your 20th and its also your best then putting in a 101 could have a big effect on your averages.
You used to get it under the old system, the guaranteed 0.1 but sometimes reductions only kicked in.
But now, if people know the above scenario, some won't go out in weather where they're guaranteed not to score well.


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## jim8flog (Feb 5, 2021)

saving_par said:



			I think its more of a case of player's knowing a cricket score is guaranteed due to conditions so just sacking it off altogether.

I know our secretary thinks doing away with RO is a mistake and will mean days when there are mass withdrawals from comps.

🤣
		
Click to expand...


That makes no sense to me.  If the day is likely to produce a very high score then it simply means that score is not likely to be one of the best 8 although I do accept it may knock a very good score off a players history but that would happen with any score.


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## Imurg (Feb 5, 2021)

Traminator said:



			If today's score is not in your new best 8 it doesn't matter if you shoot 81, 91, 101 or 201, it will have zero effect.
		
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In itself it will have no effect
But if it knocks a counting score out of your 20 then it will have an effect
The size of that effect will be dictated by the next best score that becomes counting.


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## patricks148 (Feb 5, 2021)

Imurg said:



			If your 8th counting score is your 20th and its also your best then putting in a 101 could have a big effect on your averages.
You used to get it under the old system, the guaranteed 0.1 but sometimes reductions only kicked in.
But now, if people know the above scenario, some won't go out in weather where they're guaranteed not to score well.
		
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my 19th and 20th scores are by two best scores of my 8....hopes its not crap weather come the first medal


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## Imurg (Feb 5, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			my 19th and 20th scores are by two best scores of my 8....hopes its not crap weather come the first medal

Click to expand...

Up to you if you play or not


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 5, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			my 19th and 20th scores are by two best scores of my 8....hopes its not crap weather come the first medal

Click to expand...

Mine are 113 and 107 so I have a good chance of beating them....🤣


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## patricks148 (Feb 5, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Mine are 113 and 107 so I have a good chance of beating them....🤣
		
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alas mine two are 73 and 74 gross.... i might have to wait till june to put a card in


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## Deleted member 3432 (Feb 5, 2021)

patricks148 said:



			alas mine two are 73 and 74 gross.... i might have to wait till june to put a card in

Click to expand...

I can remember the days of 73 and 74's, hopefully still some in the tank. Just hope the body holds together this year...


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## rulefan (Feb 16, 2021)

Recently announced.

_"For the purpose of the Yorkshire Rabbit Golf Association, a Rabbit Golfer shall be a male playing member of the age of 18 years or over with a Handicap Index of 15 or over"_


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## rosecott (Feb 16, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Recently announced.

_"For the purpose of the Yorkshire Rabbit Golf Association, a Rabbit Golfer shall be a male playing member of the age of 18 years or over with a Handicap Index of 15 or over"_

Click to expand...

No female rabbits in Yorkshire?


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## Beezerk (Feb 16, 2021)

Is there a time limit on how long ago old scores can be used to workout your whs handicap?
I thought I'd read somewhere it was 2 years but I have scores in mine from back in 2018. Three of those are quite low so hopefully they will be deleted soon 😁


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## AliMc (Feb 16, 2021)

Traminator said:



			That will always be happening on a rolling basis.
Once one of the best 8 becomes the 20th score, it will be replaced by whatever the next best in the top 8 is.  That could be a worse, an equal or a better score if it's beaten today.

For regular players it's going to be a very normal occurrence.
		
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Absolutely Tram, I started under whs with playing h'cap of 8, have submitted 5 cards so far, ok but nothing spectacular, ranging from 77 to 80 against course index of 72.3 slope 128 and i am already down to 7, with the way my scores are dropping off I only need a couple of similar scores to these to be down to 6, for others though it could go the other way depending on what differentials drop off and what they are replaced with in their best 8.


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## rosecott (Feb 16, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Is there a time limit on how long ago old scores can be used to workout your whs handicap?
I thought I'd read somewhere it was 2 years but I have scores in mine from back in 2018. Three of those are quite low so hopefully they will be deleted soon 😁
		
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I'm pretty sure that any 2018 scores in your 20 scores will only disappear when you submit new "counting" scores. I have a few members with 2018 scores in their 20.


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## Beezerk (Feb 16, 2021)

rosecott said:



			I'm pretty sure that any 2018 scores in your 20 scores will only disappear when you submit new "counting" scores. I have a few members with 2018 scores in their 20.
		
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OK, thanks for the explanation  👍


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## rulefan (Feb 16, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Is there a time limit on how long ago old scores can be used to workout your whs handicap?
I thought I'd read somewhere it was 2 years but I have scores in mine from back in 2018. Three of those are quite low so hopefully they will be deleted soon 😁
		
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Scores were taken from 1/1/2018


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## jim8flog (Feb 16, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Is there a time limit on how long ago old scores can be used to workout your whs handicap?
I thought I'd read somewhere it was 2 years but I have scores in mine from back in 2018. Three of those are quite low so hopefully they will be deleted soon 😁
		
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 Think of it the simple from now on it is how many and not when. 

If you still do not have 20 by 2028 (for example) the 2018 ones will still form part of the maths.


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## moogie (Feb 16, 2021)

Beezerk said:



			Is there a time limit on how long ago old scores can be used to workout your whs handicap?
I thought I'd read somewhere it was 2 years but I have scores in mine from back in 2018. Three of those are quite low so hopefully they will be deleted soon 😁
		
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Mate
I'm sure you're well capable of getting rid of 3 good scores,  in no time at all😉


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## 2blue (Feb 16, 2021)

rosecott said:



			No female rabbits in Yorkshire?
		
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Oooooh....  does your Club have a female Rabbits team?


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## Beezerk (Feb 16, 2021)

moogie said:



			Mate
I'm sure you're well capable of getting rid of 3 good scores,  in no time at all😉
		
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🤣🤣🤣


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## AliMc (Feb 18, 2021)

Put another GP score in yesterday, dropping a score (20th) which wasn't one of my best 8, it's a good feeling playing knowing that you can't go up, in the event I came down 0.4 to 6.2, well pleased


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## rosecott (Feb 18, 2021)

2blue said:



			Oooooh....  does your Club have a female Rabbits team?
		
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Just curious, Dave, in this day and age, as to why it needs to specify "shall be a male". What do they imagine would happen if that was not stated in the rules?


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## rulefan (Feb 18, 2021)

rosecott said:



			Just curious, Dave, in this day and age, as to why it needs to specify "shall be a male". What do they imagine would happen if that was not stated in the rules?
		
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All sorts of problems with sorting out Playing handicaps and Indices (given it's taken over three months so far for the latter).


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## Old Skier (Feb 20, 2021)

Traminator said:



			For anyone still with handicap issues resulting from the changeover to the new system, EG are very responsive to emails now that the initial avalanche has subsided.

Over the past week I've had all the data corrected (they deleted the double-adjustment from County comps), plus had a slightly rogue Low Index over-ridden.
After 3 months I now have a correct HI...
		
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They would prefer if any issues go through the club >county>EG route but if your able to get a direct answer all the better.


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## redbrownie (Feb 21, 2021)

I got my first official handicap last year after finally taking the plunge and joining a club. I only managed 3 competitions due to a wrist injury which meant that when it came to converting my handicap to WHS they only took one card into account. My CONGU handicap was 15.2 (and falling) but my WHS index is now 10.1!

Feels like it will take a while this upcoming season for it to level out to what it should be.


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## Old Skier (Feb 21, 2021)

redbrownie said:



			I got my first official handicap last year after finally taking the plunge and joining a club. I only managed 3 competitions due to a wrist injury which meant that when it came to converting my handicap to WHS they only took one card into account. My CONGU handicap was 15.2 (and falling) but my WHS index is now 10.1!

Feels like it will take a while this upcoming season for it to level out to what it should be.
		
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As you have only 3 counting cards only the best score would have been taken into account. You need to get as many Q comps or casual rounds in over the next few months as you can.


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## jim8flog (Feb 21, 2021)

redbrownie said:



			I got my first official handicap last year after finally taking the plunge and joining a club. I only managed 3 competitions due to a wrist injury which meant that when it came to converting my handicap to WHS they only took one card into account. My CONGU handicap was 15.2 (and falling) but my WHS index is now 10.1!

Feels like it will take a while this upcoming season for it to level out to what it should be.
		
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 If you only have 3 cards in your  H.I. may jump around all over the place until you get a decent number of cards in. It takes 15 cards before the averaging becomes best of the lowest 5 and 20 to be the best of the lowest 8.


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## rulefan (Feb 21, 2021)

redbrownie said:



			I got my first official handicap last year after finally taking the plunge and joining a club. I only managed 3 competitions due to a wrist injury which meant that when it came to converting my handicap to WHS they only took one card into account. My CONGU handicap was 15.2 (and falling) but my WHS index is now 10.1!

Feels like it will take a while this upcoming season for it to level out to what it should be.
		
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With only 3 scores your allocated Index would be your lowest minus 2.0


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## IanM (Feb 21, 2021)

Blimey.   I'd forgotten all about WHS!!


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## Old Skier (Feb 21, 2021)

IanM said:



			Blimey.   I'd forgotten all about WHS!!
		
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If only


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## howbow88 (Feb 23, 2021)

By all accounts, my course is an utter mess right now and will not be ready by April fully. In particular, 3 greens have undergone a complete rebuild. In the long term it's good news, providing they have carried out the work properly... it is annoying that they couldn't have started this work last year though.

Either way, the latest news is, and I quote: 'if we have good Spring weather, the 3 greens should be ready for the start of Summer.' I'm very much taking that as 'if we're lucky, you'll get to to play on them at some point before the end of the year.'

Anyway, my question: If we only play 15 holes in competition, roll up, whatever, am I correct in thinking that this round will still count for WHS purposes? I'm sure I read that rounds like this will be sort of pro-rataed... Is that right?


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## D-S (Feb 23, 2021)

Yes, you can play 15 hole competitions will will qualify for handicap under WHS.


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## rulefan (Feb 23, 2021)

See Rule 3
At least 14 holes - Add net par (or equivalent Stableford points).


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## jim8flog (Feb 23, 2021)

IanM said:



			Blimey.   I'd forgotten all about WHS!!
		
Click to expand...

 I thought you had decided to forget about it as soon as you heard about it


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## AliMc (Mar 1, 2021)

AliMc said:



			Have to say that after a couple of initial tweeks mine is correct, played 4 GP rounds so far using the SG App, have to say it has worked perfectly and is super slick, didn't think I would be saying that !
		
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This is my thought exactly, have now submitted 7 GP scores through the SG App and the whole process really is very slick


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## Deleted member 3432 (Mar 6, 2021)

Question for those in the know. Had a look at the WHS app earlier. It appears to make barely any difference where I would play. I would be playing off the same PH whether it be any of the open tracks off the championship tees or my own or most local courses. A couple of shortish par 66 tracks I lose a shot. Strange....

Also the app won't let me look at any scottish tracks which is crap considering the border is closer to me than Lancashire or Northumberland.....


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## Griffsters (Mar 6, 2021)

Quick thoughts, are you a low handicap index? When you get into single figures your playing handicap is lesser affected.

Also, when you say WHS app do you mean the My England Golf app? For the Scotland courses you'll need the Scottish ruling body app as well, likewise Wales I would imagine


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## AliMc (Mar 6, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Question for those in the know. Had a look at the WHS app earlier. It appears to make barely any difference where I would play. I would be playing off the same PH whether it be any of the open tracks off the championship tees or my own or most local courses. A couple of shortish par 66 tracks I lose a shot. Strange....

Also the app won't let me look at any scottish tracks which is crap considering the border is closer to me than Lancashire or Northumberland.....
		
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I had a look at this a while ago regarding my own situation, HI is 5.5. Dunbar where I play is slope 128, to gain one shot i think the course had to be more than 140, to lose a shot I think it was less than 118 if I remember correctly, of all the courses I looked at in my rough area the only courses where I would get one shot more was either Muirfield or The Roxburghe but here only from the blue tees.


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## howbow88 (Mar 6, 2021)

Apologies if I am covering old ground but when clubs open in a few weeks, can I play a course that isn't my 'home course' and add that round to my handicap?

I remember there being talk of this being available through the MyEG app, but I haven't heard anything more.


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## jim8flog (Mar 6, 2021)

AliMc said:



			I had a look at this a while ago regarding my own situation, HI is 5.5. Dunbar where I play is slope 128, to gain one shot i think the course had to be more than 140, to lose a shot I think it was less than 118 if I remember correctly, of all the courses I looked at in my rough area the only courses where I would get one shot more was either Muirfield or The Roxburghe but here only from the blue tees.
		
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 This is part of why there is a further calculation to playing handicap. Where it is 141 say you go there with a mate who is 10.5  you will 'gain' 1 shot they will 'gain' 
 2 shots so the difference now between the 2 of you now becomes bigger, however with a 95% allowance  the difference between you remains the same.


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## jim8flog (Mar 6, 2021)

howbow88 said:



			Apologies if I am covering old ground but when clubs open in a few weeks, can I play a course that isn't my 'home course' and add that round to my handicap?

I remember there being talk of this being available through the MyEG app, but I haven't heard anything more.
		
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Assuming you are just playing socially you have to preregister the round at that club as a General Play round to add it to your handicap. The ability to register at the club is supposed to be a feature of the app.

If you are playing in a comp there, such as an Open, it will be automatic and you do not need to do anything.


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 13, 2021)

This my seem a stupid question and if so apologies.

This was taken from England Golf re PLAYING HANDICAP FOR COMPETITION PURPOSES.

Surely this will include roll ups and say Match play between 4 friends. This is competitive golf is it not?

Have I miss read 

The most important aspects of Playing Handicap to remember are:
   • It is only used for competition purposes
• Itensuresequitytocalculatecompetitionresults(viaHandicapAllowances)
• Golfers do not need to calculate it (it is generated before their round)
• Golfers should continue to play in the mindset of their Course Handicap in competition rounds
• It is a mandatory stroke allowance that must be implemented in competition play


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## jim8flog (Mar 13, 2021)

Match play - 
In a 4 Ball Better Ball match play each player checks their

 Handicap Index , converts this to their  Course Handicap then converts this to their Playing Handicap (90% of Course Handicap).

Each player, as appropriate, gets the difference between their Playing Handicap and the player with lowest Playing Handicap.

In *Singles* match play Playing Handicap = Course Handicap

The highest handicapped player gets 100% of the difference between their Playing Handicaps.

What you do in rollups is up to the organiser of the rollup assuming it is not a club organised one. We leave it as course handicap for easiness.


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 13, 2021)

Thanks Jim

Thant is what I understood. However it quotes that playing handicap is only used for competition purposes. My query was surely when 4 turn up for match play it is a competition


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## rulefan (Mar 13, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Thanks Jim

Thant is what I understood. However it quotes that playing handicap is only used for competition purposes. My query was surely when 4 turn up for match play it is a competition
		
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But match play is not an authorised format for handicap purposes so playing handicap is irrelevant.


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## Wabinez (Mar 13, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Match play -
In a 4 Ball Better Ball match play each player checks their

Handicap Index , converts this to their  Course Handicap then converts this to their Playing Handicap (90% of Course Handicap).

Each player, as appropriate, gets the difference between their Playing Handicap and the player with lowest Playing Handicap.

In *Singles* match play Playing Handicap = Course Handicap

The highest handicapped player gets 100% of the difference between their Playing Handicaps.

What you do in rollups is up to the organiser of the rollup assuming it is not a club organised one. We leave it as course handicap for easiness.
		
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That’s handy to know. 4BBB Match play now isn’t 90% of the difference. Everyone gets 90% and then it’s the full difference.


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 13, 2021)

rulefan said:



			But match play is not an authorised format for handicap purposes so playing handicap is irrelevant.
		
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RF
Are you saying for Match Play you therefore play Course Handicap?

if so what else should we play Course handicap please nd where may I find the info. pleas?


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 13, 2021)

Traminator said:



			No you're overthinking and going off on a tangent.

See posts above, you all take 90% of your course hcap and use the difference for the strokes. Irrelevant if it's friendly or official competition.
		
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Thanks Tram. initially I thought as you said but appreciate your help


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## rulefan (Mar 13, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			RF
Are you saying for Match Play you therefore play Course Handicap?

if so what else should we play Course handicap please nd where may I find the info. pleas?
		
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See Rule 6 and Appendix C.


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## rulefan (Mar 13, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Why it's changed, I have no idea.
		
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It's all to do with more recent stats and the bias towards higher caps in stroke play.


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## doublebogey7 (Mar 13, 2021)

rulefan said:



			But match play is not an authorised format for handicap purposes so playing handicap is irrelevant.
		
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Confused by this,  surely all forms of play are subject to a playing handicap calculation,  all be in singles Matchplay playing handicap equals course handicap.


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## jim8flog (Mar 13, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			Confused by this,  surely all forms of play are subject to a playing handicap calculation,  all be in singles Matchplay playing handicap equals course handicap.
		
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 Not all. See the list Tram posted.


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## rulefan (Mar 13, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			all be in singles Matchplay playing handicap equals course handicap.
		
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Which is why it is irrelevant


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 14, 2021)

rulefan said:



			But match play is not an authorised format for handicap purposes so playing handicap is irrelevant.
		
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Is this not the wrong way round? In matchplay you are not returning scores for Handicap Index adjustment so Course Handicap is irrelevant, but all players must calculate their correct Playing Handicap for the format of play.


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 14, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Match play -
In a 4 Ball Better Ball match play each player checks their

Handicap Index , converts this to their  Course Handicap then converts this to their Playing Handicap (90% of Course Handicap).

Each player, as appropriate, gets the difference between their Playing Handicap and the player with lowest Playing Handicap.

In *Singles* match play Playing Handicap = Course Handicap

The highest handicapped player gets 100% of the difference between their Playing Handicaps.

What you do in rollups is up to the organiser of the rollup assuming it is not a club organised one. We leave it as course handicap for easiness.
		
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You might think it is easier, but it is wrong to ignore allowances in roll-ups. All players should play off the correct playing handicap for the format of play. From the Rules of Handicapping..._“A player is expected to act with integrity by following the rules of handicapping and to refrain from using, or circumventing, the rules of handicapping for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage.”  _Higher handicap players will have gained an unfair advantage if the 95% allowance for individual strokeplay is not applied. I think it is easier to play to the rules of handicapping rather than invent my own unfair rules or play to someone else's unfair rules.


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## fenwayrich (Mar 14, 2021)

In November, I tried to explain the new 4ball Matchplay handicap system to lads in my roll up. I got very short shrift, they'll just carry on as normal.  The least interested chap plays off 1 and would actually benefit in some circumstances. The education process could be a long one.


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## mikejohnchapman (Mar 14, 2021)

fenwayrich said:



			In November, I tried to explain the new 4ball Matchplay handicap system to lads in my roll up. I got very short shrift, they'll just carry on as normal.  The least interested chap plays off 1 and would actually benefit in some circumstances. The education process could be a long one.
		
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It's a struggle at times - I still frequently get called in to settle disputes on rules that were changed years ago!


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## doublebogey7 (Mar 14, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Which is why it is irrelevant
		
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Except you only referred to match play,  in 4 ball match play there is a playing handicap calculation, and it is irrelevant whether a competition is authorised or not,  playing handicap calculations are mandatory in all cases.


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## Crazyface (Mar 14, 2021)

THe simple thing to do in comps is ask how it is to be applied relevent to your H/C, do what is said, go and play. Well, that's what I'm gonna do.


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## jim8flog (Mar 14, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			You might think it is easier, but it is wrong to ignore allowances in roll-ups. All players should play off the correct playing handicap for the format of play. From the Rules of Handicapping..._“A player is expected to act with integrity by following the rules of handicapping and to refrain from using, or circumventing, the rules of handicapping for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage.”  _Higher handicap players will have gained an unfair advantage if the 95% allowance for individual strokeplay is not applied. I think it is easier to play to the rules of handicapping rather than invent my own unfair rules or play to someone else's unfair rules.
		
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 The rollups I play in are very democratic affairs and such decisions are voted on by all. One particular group I play with are confused by it all anyway


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## fenwayrich (Mar 14, 2021)

Another aspect that I find slightly bizarre is the effect of the 95% allowance in singles strokeplay. My club has a slope of 133 off the whites. This means that everyone with a handicap index between 8.1 and 9.7 will have a playing handicap of 10 in competitions.


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## rosecott (Mar 14, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			Is this not the wrong way round? In matchplay you are not returning scores for Handicap Index adjustment so Course Handicap is irrelevant, but all players must calculate their correct Playing Handicap for the format of play.
		
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I am struggling to think of any format where Course Handicap is irrelevant.


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 14, 2021)

rosecott said:



			I am struggling to think of any format where Course Handicap is irrelevant.
		
Click to expand...

Course Handicap is relevant when returning scores for handicap assessment and adjustment.
Playing Handicap is relevant when playing with and against others
If not returning a score for handicap adjustment when playing with and against others, then Course Handicap is irrelevant and all players play off the correct Playing Handicap for the format of play.


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## fenwayrich (Mar 14, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			Course Handicap is relevant when returning scores for handicap assessment and adjustment.
Playing Handicap is relevant when playing with and against others
If not returning a score for handicap adjustment when playing with and against others, then Course Handicap is irrelevant and all players play off the correct Playing Handicap for the format of play.
		
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Surely course handicap remains relevant because without knowing what it is, you cannot work out playing handicap.


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 14, 2021)

fenwayrich said:



			Another aspect that I find slightly bizarre is the effect of the 95% allowance in singles strokeplay. My club has a slope of 133 off the whites. This means that everyone with a handicap index between 8.1 and 9.7 will have a playing handicap of 10 in competitions.
		
Click to expand...

Similar where I am with a slope of 132. Scotland Golf system is better, in my view, where Course Handicap is not rounded, 95% applied then rounded to give Playing Handicap. Then the big "lump" of players off 10 does not occur. Shame we are stuck with the England Golf system.


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 14, 2021)

Traminator said:



			I think the point he is making is that you need to use the course handicap to arrive at the playing handicap, hence the CH is not actually irrelevant, as such.
		
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Individual strokeplay Playing Handicap = (HI x slope/113) rounded then 95%.  Thus stopping halfway through the calculation to take note of your Course Handicap when you are not returning a score for handicap adjustment is pointless/irrelevant. You "need" a Handicap Index to start the calculation, but you don't "need" your Course Handicap if you are not returning a score for handicap assessment and adjustment. You do "need" your correct Playing Handicap when playing with and against others.


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 14, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Golfer arrives at golf course.

Do they either:

1.  Take 95% of their Course Handicap that is either available on the big board they will walk past, or

2.  Get a calculator out, do a calculation to find out what "HI x slope/113" is, then multiply that by 0.95?

Either way, the result of HI x slope/113 is the Course Handicap, so to call that "irrelevant" is just incorrect.  It is very relevant, as whether you look at the board or use your handy calculator, you are ALWAYS using the CH to arrive at the PH.
		
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Once you tee off, however you have arrived at or calculated your correct Playing Handicap, (looking at boards, using a calculator or your brain), your Course Handicap is irrelevant if you are not returning a score for handicap adjustment.


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 14, 2021)

Traminator said:



			That's not the point though is it.

People were saying that the Course Handicap is "irrelevant".
It's not irrelevant at all because you need to use it to arrive at your Playing Handicap.

Bearing in mind that it's a new system and people are still learning how it works, saying the CH is irrelevant is not true and a misleading choice of wording.   Yes, once you have your PH and you're just playing a match, you "no longer use" your CH, but you needed it to get to the PH in the first place.
		
Click to expand...

No you don't. You could have another board that shows index range and strokes received for individual strokeplay without any reference to course handicap.
​


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## Imurg (Mar 14, 2021)

What have you got against Course Handicap?


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## Imurg (Mar 14, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Plain English needs to be used to explain it properly, not shortcuts with misleading statements.
		
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This
In spades.
A lot of people don't get WHS yet.


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## doublebogey7 (Mar 14, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Indeed.
In fact the guys who's handicap ends in 6 seem to be dipping out a bit.

Under the old system, your guy off 1, playing a guy off 6,gave 90% of 5 = 5.   Now, 90% of 1 =1, 90% of 6 = 5.4 = 5, so it's 4 shots.

For all other numbers the shots are the same before and after until the higher guy is off 16, before was 14 shots, now is 13.

Moral of the story, don't be off 6,16 or 26 under WHS as you're losing a shot in matchplay... 🤔
		
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Are you sure,  by my calculation players with handicaps of 2 & 7,  3 & 8, 4 & 9 etc are effected in exactly the same way.


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## jim8flog (Mar 14, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			Individual strokeplay Playing Handicap = (HI x slope/113) rounded then 95%.  Thus stopping halfway through the calculation to take note of your Course Handicap when you are not returning a score for handicap adjustment is pointless/irrelevant. You "need" a Handicap Index to start the calculation, but you don't "need" your Course Handicap if you are not returning a score for handicap assessment and adjustment. You do "need" your correct Playing Handicap when playing with and against others.
		
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 As said in previous comments what a player does amongst his mates is up to them. Who really cares what they all do. We very rarely hole out with a lot of gimmes anyway thereby making the rounds null and void under the rules of golf.


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## ger147 (Mar 14, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



*No you don't...*

Click to expand...

Yes you do.


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 14, 2021)

No I don't


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## ger147 (Mar 14, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			No I don't
		
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Yes you do...


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 14, 2021)

I refer the gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago.


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## ger147 (Mar 14, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			I refer the gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago.
		
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And I refer you to the fact I posted above 👍🏻


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 14, 2021)

I can go straight from Handicap Index to 95% of Course Handicap by looking at a board or table.


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## ger147 (Mar 14, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			I can go straight from Handicap Index to 95% of Course Handicap by looking at a board or table.
		
Click to expand...

As per the definitions I posted above, what you are doing is calculating your couse handicap and then multiplying it by your handicap allowance to arrive at your playing handicap. 👍🏻


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## SammmeBee (Mar 14, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			No I don't
		
Click to expand...

You’ve just got a table that misses out the CH bit - well done you - albeit no good for other formats of play, which are numerous.

I’d rather know my CH and then apply the applicable bits, although the Committee can do that bit for me as it’s not my job really....


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 14, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Congratulations 🎊

Where is that board located?
		
Click to expand...

Attachment to 2539. I could print it large and stick it to the pro shop window in two weeks time. But I don't think I'll bother.


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## ger147 (Mar 14, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			Attachment to 2539. I could print it large and stick it to the pro shop window in two weeks time. But I don't think I'll bother.
		
Click to expand...

You would need a lot of tables...


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## jim8flog (Mar 14, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			I can go straight from Handicap Index to 95% of Course Handicap by looking at a board or table.
		
Click to expand...

 Not the boards where I play. As the person responsible for posting all things WHS where I play we do not have tables posted either.

It can be found in the 'MY GOLF' section of IG in my account via the web or via the app.


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 14, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			You’ve just got a table that misses out the CH bit - well done you - albeit no good for other formats of play, which are numerous.

I’d rather know my CH and then apply the applicable bits, although the Committee can do that bit for me as it’s not my job really....
		
Click to expand...

I'll be doing the same as you. I made the table for others who are struggling to understand the new system. They just wanted to know what they would be playing off in medals and stablefords. They found the calculations too confusing to be sure they were doing it correctly.


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 14, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			Attachment to 2539. I could print it large and stick it to the pro shop window in two weeks time. But I don't think I'll bother.
		
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Im unsure why you are complicating matters 

Playing HC = Course Handicap * HC Allowance for the format you are playing 

Keep it simple 

You need to know your course handicap for every single round play


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## jim8flog (Mar 14, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			Attachment to 2539. I could print it large and stick it to the pro shop window in two weeks time. But I don't think I'll bother.
		
Click to expand...

 That PDF only shows H.I. to Course is does not show 95%.


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 14, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			That PDF only shows H.I. to Course is does not show 95%.
		
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Yes it does. The ranges would be different if it were 100% CH


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## doublebogey7 (Mar 14, 2021)

The one big floor to going straight from Hi to PH,  is that the CH must be on the scorecard for all forms of strokeplay Competition.


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 14, 2021)

Traminator said:



			They look at their Course Handicap on the big board that is hopefully now displayed and either use 95% or 100%.

If they don't understand that it must have been extremely poorly communicated by the club.

Dare I say over-complicated and not explained in plain English...?
		
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It was poorly communicated. Casting my mind back to November, I remember a long conversation with a member who struggled with the fact that his HI of 8.3 meant he would play off 10 in medals and stablefords. Many others think 95% is unfair because low handicappers aren't "losing a shot like the rest of us". That is where the table of HI to PH was useful. I do not recommend it for general use, but it was, and is, a useful learning tool. It will take two full summers for most to get used to the new reality - in my view. The original part of this thread was "relevance" of Course Handicap. I hold the view that Course Handicap is relevant when returning scores for handicap adjustment. At all times, when playing with and against others and not returning scores for handicap adjustment, Playing Handicap is "relevant" and Course Handicap is a step in the calculation, but then not relevant as you tee off - you only need your Playing Handicap on the course and in your mind when not returning scores.


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## ger147 (Mar 14, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			It was poorly communicated. Casting my mind back to November, I remember a long conversation with a member who struggled with the fact that his HI of 8.3 meant he would play off 10 in medals and stablefords. Many others think 95% is unfair because low handicappers aren't "losing a shot like the rest of us". That is where the table of HI to PH was useful. I do not recommend it for general use, but it was, and is, a useful learning tool. It will take two full summers for most to get used to the new reality - in my view. The original part of this thread was "relevance" of Course Handicap. I hold the view that Course Handicap is relevant when returning scores for handicap adjustment. At all times, when playing with and against others and not returning scores for handicap adjustment, Playing Handicap is "relevant" and Course Handicap is a step in the calculation, but then not relevant as you tee off - you only need your Playing Handicap on the course and in your mind when not returning scores.
		
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The big failing of your spreadsheet can be best illustrated by your use of the term "playing against others". The percentage you use to determine your playing handicap isn't always 95%, it depends on the format being played as you can see from the table of the various handicap allowances table I posted earlier in the thread.

So in my view, you are making things worse by making it look like people have a fixed playing handicap that they can look up before they head out to play as they do not, it depends on the format being played, so it would be best for them to get familiar with that as that is not a new concept, it was also used in the old pre-WHS world.


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## rulefan (Mar 14, 2021)

Remember, if playing stableford and your playing handicap is not the same as your course handicap (ie lower), do not pick up to soon if you think you have run out of shots on the hole.


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 14, 2021)

ger147 said:



			The big failing of your spreadsheet can be best illustrated by your use of the term "playing against others". The percentage you use to determine your playing handicap isn't always 95%, it depends on the format being played as you can see from the table of the various handicap allowances table I posted earlier in the thread.

So in my view, you are making things worse by making it look like people have a fixed playing handicap that they can look up before they head out to play as they do not, it depends on the format being played, so it would be best for them to get familiar with that as that is not a new concept, it was also used in the old pre-WHS world.
		
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You are spot on correct. The table I attached is for medals and stablefords only as it says at the top of the column. No use for anything else. But it was needed in November for members to get a picture of individual strokeplay handicaps. Everyone is slowly getting to know all other allowances, but some are still struggling with the 95% concept after 4 and a half months. It is going to be a long slow learning process for some.


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## SammmeBee (Mar 14, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			You are spot on correct. The table I attached is for medals and stablefords only as it says at the top of the column. No use for anything else. But it was needed in November for members to get a picture of individual strokeplay handicaps. Everyone is slowly getting to know all other allowances, but some are still struggling with the 95% concept after 4 and a half months. It is going to be a long slow learning process for some.
		
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Or just the process for you.....


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## ger147 (Mar 14, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			You are spot on correct. The table I attached is for medals and stablefords only as it says at the top of the column. No use for anything else. But it was needed in November for members to get a picture of individual strokeplay handicaps. Everyone is slowly getting to know all other allowances, but some are still struggling with the 95% concept after 4 and a half months. It is going to be a long slow learning process for some.
		
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I honestly can't fathom why it was required if there are charts printed with Course handicaps printed on them to look up for your given Handicap Index and the fact that handicap allowances are not a new concept when it comes to how many shots you get when actually playing golf, but I'm not a member of your club and don't know the golfers you were talking to so will leave it there.


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## rulefan (Mar 14, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			You are spot on correct. The table I attached is for medals and stablefords only as it says at the top of the column. No use for anything else. But it was needed in November for members to get a picture of individual strokeplay handicaps. Everyone is slowly getting to know all other allowances, but some are still struggling with the 95% concept after 4 and a half months. It is going to be a long slow learning process for some.
		
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The 95% came about as a result of stats (primarily but not exclusively, from the USA and Australia) showing that there was a stroke play bias in favour of higher handicap players.
Pre WHS those countries had a built-in adjustment of 96% and 93% for strokeplay and matchplay. It was called 'Bonus for Excellence'. Unfortunately, the bias was shown to be the other way round in matchplay. So the WHS only applies the adjustment to strokeplay.


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## jim8flog (Mar 14, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			Yes it does. The ranges would be different if it were 100% CH
		
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So that chart is only of use where you play or if another club happens to have the same slope rating. It certainly does not match where I play.

If you were to put it up on display it do you not think it would confuse players from your course who are at another course where the boards show H.I to Course Handicap (the standard board that will be at the majority of clubs).


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 14, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			So that chart is only of use where you play or if another club happens to have the same slope rating. It certainly does not match where I play.

If you were to put it up on display it do you not think it would confuse players from your course who are at another course where the boards show H.I to Course Handicap (the standard board that will be at the majority of clubs).
		
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I agree. That is why I said I won't be bothered to put it on display. It could confuse some. I put it on this thread to show it CAN or COULD be just as simple to find out one's Playing Handicap directly from HI as it is for your Course Handicap. I was asked by a member in November, "So, if I can read my Course Handicap from a Table, why can't I just read my (individual strokeplay) Playing Handicap from a table?" A reasonable request, so I showed him what such a table would look like. I was not trying to change the world, merely responding to what was said to me. Much like I do here. I found it interesting to see just how many decimal places my HI would have to change for me to enter another band.  I made another table with SR of 127 as that is our yellow tee course. Factual information can not do harm or be misleading, in my view. It is up to the individual to learn what they need to learn or choose to learn what they find interesting. Some can't be bothered to learn- that is what I have learned about the new handicap system. On this forum, many seem interested in finding fault with others' level of knowledge. I enjoy the exchange of views mainly. If comments are addressed to me then I am likely to respond. I try to avoid discourtesy and impropriety, which sometimes happens all too easily on social media.


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 14, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Remember, if playing stableford and your playing handicap is not the same as your course handicap (ie lower), do not pick up to soon if you think you have run out of shots on the hole.
		
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Could you just clarify in my case or explain in general please.

HI 18.4 course Handicap 22 Playing Hndicap  Stableford 21 shots. Am I affected please?


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## SammmeBee (Mar 14, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Could you just clarify in my case or explain in general please.

HI 18.4 course Handicap 22 Playing Hndicap  Stableford 21 shots. Am I affected please?
		
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Yes - be careful on SI 4.......


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## 3offTheTee (Mar 14, 2021)

SammmeBee said:



			Yes - be careful on SI 4.......
		
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What you are saying SB is for handicap/WHS best 8 scores I will get 2 shots on SI 4 but not in The Comp?


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## fenwayrich (Mar 14, 2021)

I know that our roll up won't be bothering to put scores in for handicap, and I'm equally confident that we won't be messing around with the 95% malarkey either.


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## rulefan (Mar 15, 2021)

fenwayrich said:



			I know that our roll up won't be bothering to put scores in for handicap, and I'm equally confident that we won't be messing around with the 95% malarkey either.
		
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Except for those who would get an extra shot ?


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## D-S (Mar 15, 2021)

fenwayrich said:



			I know that our roll up won't be bothering to put scores in for handicap, and I'm equally confident that we won't be messing around with the 95% malarkey either.
		
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What’s the point of using just some of WHS and not all of it I.e. going to the bother of finding out your course h/c and not converting to playing h/c? Would you just use course h/c for all formats? What did you do in the old days when it was 3/4 for individual matchplay - just not bother with that ‘malarkey?


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## jim8flog (Mar 15, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Could you just clarify in my case or explain in general please.

HI 18.4 course Handicap 22 Playing Hndicap  Stableford 21 shots. Am I affected please?
		
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 On stroke index 4 when playing in a stableford comp if you pick your ball up after playing par plus 3 shots you will be picking up too early for your handicap. You should pick up after playing par plus 4 shots. You will still score nil points for the comp but the score will be recorded for your handicap differently if you 
pick up at par plus 3 than if you putt out for par plus 3.


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## Green Man (Mar 15, 2021)

D-S said:



			What’s the point of using just some of WHS and not all of it I.e. going to the bother of finding out your course h/c and not converting to playing h/c? Would you just use course h/c for all formats? What did you do in the old days when it was 3/4 for individual matchplay - just not bother with that ‘malarkey?
		
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I had this argument with the pro in our shop before Xmas. They were running a pro roll up. Pay to enter the Comp then play. 
When I asked what was the handicap allowance he said Course Handicap. 
I said do you mean Playing handicap? No course handicap as it’s only a bit of fun. 

Not much fun for me mate when all the mid / high handicappers are getting more shots that they should.


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## USER1999 (Mar 15, 2021)

fenwayrich said:



			I know that our roll up won't be bothering to put scores in for handicap, and I'm equally confident that we won't be messing around with the 95% malarkey either.
		
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Had a word with the guy who runs our Saturday roll up, same, full allowance. It's just way too much hassle otherwise.


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## sweaty sock (Mar 15, 2021)

So we've not even started using it yet, and already it's being applied differently across different groups.  

Bravo, bravo.


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## Green Man (Mar 15, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Had a word with the guy who runs our Saturday roll up, same, full allowance. It's just way too much hassle otherwise.
		
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I tried explaining the new system to some of the guys we play with and they are completely confused. They think they have gone from 1 handicap to having 3.


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## sweaty sock (Mar 15, 2021)

Whats so difficult?  Under congu you had a handicap, you adjusted it depending on format...

Under WHS you have a handicap, you adjust it depending on what course your playing, and then again for what format?  

Have I missed something?


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## azazel (Mar 15, 2021)

Is there something simple I'm missing to explain why I had a playing handicap of 5 on Saturday?!
Individual strokeplay competition.
My HI is 3.8
Course handicap is 4.3
Course rating 70.8 and Slope 130


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2021)

fenwayrich said:



			I know that our roll up won't be bothering to put scores in for handicap, and I'm equally confident that we won't be messing around with the 95% malarkey either.
		
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You may not have the choice if your club decides that the roll-up complies with the basic requirements for 'a WHS 'counting' round (I suspect that most larger rollups do) - and that you must apply tweaks to how you play it to make it fully compliant.  E.g. if you play gimmes then gimmes can still be given, but you then have to hole out and record your score (if you didn't do so already)


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## sweaty sock (Mar 15, 2021)

azazel said:



			Is there something simple I'm missing to explain why I had a playing handicap of 5 on Saturday?!
Individual strokeplay competition.
My HI is 3.8
Course handicap is 4.3
Course rating 70.8 and Slope 130
		
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Should have been 4... unless your HI has changed... 

Out of interest is Par 70?


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## azazel (Mar 15, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Should have been 4... unless your HI has changed...

Out of interest is Par 70?
		
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I was expecting 4. Aye, par 70.


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## fenwayrich (Mar 15, 2021)

azazel said:



			Is there something simple I'm missing to explain why I had a playing handicap of 5 on Saturday?!
Individual strokeplay competition.
My HI is 3.8
Course handicap is 4.3
Course rating 70.8 and Slope 130
		
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Were you playing a multi tee stableford? Playing handicaps can be adjusted for these depending on the difference between par and course rating off each set of tees.


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## sweaty sock (Mar 15, 2021)

Could also be that who ever worked it out, incorrectly used the course rating minus par calculation that isn't used in the UK for 18 holes?


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## Imurg (Mar 15, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Whats so difficult?  Under congu you had a handicap, you adjusted it depending on format...

Under WHS you have a handicap, you adjust it depending on what course your playing, and then again for what format? 

Have I missed something?
		
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If someone only played strokeplay, under CONGU, their handicap was their handicap
If I played off 6.4 I got 6 shots
Simple.
Now I have to look at a board, find my course handicap and then do a calculation to see if lose a shot or not.
Less simple.
Which is why there will be a number of people, rollups etc who either won't be bothered, can't be bothered or will get it wrong.
Yeah, it's a pretty straightforward calculation but its another step that some just won't do.


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## azazel (Mar 15, 2021)

fenwayrich said:



			Were you playing a multi tee stableford? Playing handicaps can be adjusted for these depending on the difference between par and course rating off each set of tees.
		
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No, it was straightforward individual strokeplay off one set of tees.



sweaty sock said:



			Could also be that who ever worked it out, incorrectly used the course rating minus par calculation that isn't used in the UK for 18 holes?
		
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That seems possible, although wouldn't that give an incorrect course handicap rather than playing handicap? The competition had (correctly, I assume) my course handicap down as 4.4.


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## sweaty sock (Mar 15, 2021)

Your course handicap is HI 3.8 times slope rating divided bt 118, so 4.2.


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## Imurg (Mar 15, 2021)

Traminator said:



			You will almost certainly have a picture of the board on your phone, or failing that you will see it displayed in it's prominent place at the club.

95% of anything up to CH 10 is full handicap.   So from now until you go up to 11 there is nothing to worry about.
		
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I know. It is simple.
But we've already heard of 2 rollups that aren't doing it- guarantee there will be more.
The whole premise of WHS was to simplify things.
Adding steps rarely leads to simplifying things, especially amongst those who raise an eyebrow at change.


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## sweaty sock (Mar 15, 2021)

Imurg said:



			If someone only played strokeplay, under CONGU, their handicap was their handicap
If I played off 6.4 I got 6 shots
Simple.
Now I have to look at a board, find my course handicap and then do a calculation to see if lose a shot or not.
Less simple.
Which is why there will be a number of people, rollups etc who either won't be bothered, can't be bothered or will get it wrong.
Yeah, it's a pretty straightforward calculation but its another step that some just won't do.
		
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But we expect the same people who cant be bothered to look on a chart at the first tee for their handicap, to play provisionals, not take gimmies, stick rigidly to rules of golf whenever they register a round... what could possibly go wrong...  not a dig at anyone, but this issue is what makes a mockery of handicaps in America, and I see us heading towatds it at full speed...


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## Imurg (Mar 15, 2021)

And yet it will happen whether we like it or not.


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## USER1999 (Mar 15, 2021)

So the reality is, turn up on Saturday, a bit worse for wear, pack in a bacon sandwich and a quick coffee. Bundle out to the tee, one guy says I am marking the card for the roll up stableford. (Reality, who has a card, anyone? You are marking). What's every one off?
So first guy, I am index 10.1. What the heck does that mean? So the guy doing the card has to look up 10.1, and find out his playing handicap is 12. Fine. But it's not 12, because his handicap allowance is actually 95%, so 11.4, as in 11.
So on for the others, as I can guarantee none if them will have a clue, if they even remember their HI.

Then, let's chuck the balls up for a bit of 4bbb while we are out here. Have a scoot at the card you have just written the h/caps on. Nope. That doesn't help. Why? Because it is 90% of playing, not allowance, and he has just written down the allowance. Cue re shuffle, phaff about, and the guy off 10.1 is back to 10.8, so still 11, but a totally different calculation.

This is so far away from what people used to do, it will be confusing, and I would guess that most will use some form of hybrid mess that WHS was supposed to sort out.


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## D-S (Mar 15, 2021)

Imurg said:



			I know. It is simple.
The whole premise of WHS was to simplify things.
Adding steps rarely leads to simplifying things, especially amongst those who raise an eyebrow at change.
		
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Since when was ‘the whole premise of WHS to simplify things’. This was never claimed; it was to make play fairer and to make handicaps more portable between courses and in due course globally. I have never ever seen a claim to make it simpler. However just picking and choosing which bits you want to use is indeed ‘simple’.


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## sweaty sock (Mar 15, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			So the reality is, turn up on Saturday, a bit worse for wear, pack in a bacon sandwich and a quick coffee. Bundle out to the tee, one guy says I am marking the card for the roll up stableford. (Reality, who has a card, anyone? You are marking). What's every one off?
So first guy, I am index 10.1. What the heck does that mean? So the guy doing the card has to look up 10.1, and find out his playing handicap is 12. Fine. But it's not 12, because his handicap allowance is actually 95%, so 11.4, as in 11.
So on for the others, as I can guarantee none if them will have a clue, if they even remember their HI.

Then, let's chuck the balls up for a bit of 4bbb while we are out here. Have a scoot at the card you have just written the h/caps on. Nope. That doesn't help. Why? Because it is 90% of playing, not allowance, and he has just written down the allowance. Cue re shuffle, phaff about, and the guy off 10.1 is back to 10.8, so still 11, but a totally different calculation.

This is so far away from what people used to do, it will be confusing, and I would guess that most will use some form of hybrid mess that WHS was supposed to sort out.
		
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Good point, well made.  

Did pre whs go along the same lines where you used your handicap for the sweep and applied 90% for the 4BBB?


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## Bdill93 (Mar 15, 2021)

I swear the majority of arguments WHS creates always relate back to "throw up"/ "bounces" /"roll ups" and how they are going to implement them.  

Not even sure my club runs them.. just have 5 comps a week instead


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## Imurg (Mar 15, 2021)

D-S said:



			Since when was ‘the whole premise of WHS to simplify things’. This was never claimed; it was to make play fairer and to make handicaps more portable between courses and in due course globally. I have never ever seen a claim to make it simpler. However just picking and choosing which bits you want to use is indeed ‘simple’.
		
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First page of England Golf Handicapping
The WHS is designed to welcome more players, *make* *golf* *easier* *to* *understand* and give golfers a handicap which is portable around the globe.
What does that part mean..?
And, for the record, I'll be using it as directed.
However, as we've seen on this thread, there will be some that won't 
Add to that the different ways of doing calculations, either rounding or not, means that some Countries are picking and choosing.


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## doublebogey7 (Mar 15, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Could also be that who ever worked it out, incorrectly used the course rating minus par calculation that isn't used in the UK for 18 holes?
		
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I thought Scotltish Golf were using the course rating/par calculation.


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## doublebogey7 (Mar 15, 2021)

Traminator said:



			J*eez, already the dinosaurs are coming out in force.*

Everyone will know what their Course Handicap is, if we play Stableford we just use 95% of that, what could be more simple or less hassle???

Conversation on 1st tee:

Starts ⏱ stopwatch:

"My CH is 17, how many shots do I get?"

" Take off 5%, 0.85, that's 16.15, you get 16"

"Oh, it's that simple? All the grumpy old farts have been banging on about how complicated it is.  Is it really that simple?".

"Yes, they are idiots."

"Cool, thanks."
Stops stopwatch ⏱.

What's that? 5 seconds???

Some of these people really need to get a grip.
		
Click to expand...

And will likely be the same people moaning in the bar after about how kids don't learn fractions any more at school.


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## sweaty sock (Mar 15, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			I thought Scotltish Golf were using the course rating/par calculation.
		
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No, GB and I all doing calculation without course rating minus par...


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## doublebogey7 (Mar 15, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			No, GB and I all doing calculation without course rating minus par...
		
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My mistake,  confusing that with Scotish Golf using exact CH for PH calculations,  I think.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2021)

Imurg said:



			If someone only played strokeplay, under CONGU, their handicap was their handicap
If I played off 6.4 I got 6 shots
Simple.
Now I have to look at a board, find my course handicap and then do a calculation to see if lose a shot or not.
Less simple.
Which is why there will be a number of people, rollups etc who either won't be bothered, can't be bothered or will get it wrong.
Yeah, it's a pretty straightforward calculation but its another step that some just won't do.
		
Click to expand...

Every rollup and just about every match I play in is going to be at my it's own course, and so I'm thinking that after the first time in the I will know my 95% and 85% PHs - I won't have to work it out every time I need to know either.  I'll just know it.  Surely...


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## ger147 (Mar 15, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Every rollup and just about every match I play in is going to be at my it's own course, and so I'm thinking that after the first time in the I will know my 95% and 85% PHs - I won't have to work it out every time I need to know either.  I'll just know it.  Surely...
		
Click to expand...

Newsflash, your handicap index can change after every round and therefore your CH and PH could be different etc. 👍🏻


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## ger147 (Mar 15, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			My mistake,  confusing that with Scotish Golf using exact CH for PH calculations,  I think.
		
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Only in theory, not in practice i.e. Scottish golf clubs all have charts printed showing CH as a whole number which no doubt most players will use to work out their PH from.


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## nickjdavis (Mar 15, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Newsflash, your handicap index can change after every round and therefore your CH and PH could be different etc. 👍🏻
		
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My index will not go up for another 10 rounds....and given the layoff I've had its unlikely that any of the next few rounds will become part of the best 8 selection!!!


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2021)

Green Man said:



			I had this argument with the pro in our shop before Xmas. They were running a pro roll up. Pay to enter the Comp then play.
When I asked what was the handicap allowance he said Course Handicap.
I said do you mean Playing handicap? No course handicap as it’s only a bit of fun.

Not much fun for me mate when all the mid / high handicappers are getting more shots that they should.
		
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A great example of how members are going to end getting confused and your club pro should know better


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## IanG (Mar 15, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Only in theory, not in practice i.e. Scottish golf clubs all have charts printed showing CH as a whole number which no doubt most players will use to work out their PH from.
		
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Except that the software systems we all use will do it using the exact calculations so there will be some confusion until people learn that and accept that difference. 

The increasing prevalence of mixed tee ( and /or gender) competitions means that computer help is needed for most comps nowadays anyhow. 

Mixed roll-ups off multiple tees without a computer is fun and games as we have found out over the past few months


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Jeez, already the dinosaurs are coming out in force.

Everyone will know what their Course Handicap is, if we play Stableford we just use 95% of that, what could be more simple or less hassle???

Conversation on 1st tee:

Starts ⏱ stopwatch:

"My CH is 17, how many shots do I get?"

" Take off 5%, 0.85, that's 16.15, you get 16"

"Oh, it's that simple? All the grumpy old farts have been banging on about how complicated it is.  Is it really that simple?".

"Yes, they are idiots."

"Cool, thanks."
Stops stopwatch ⏱.

What's that? 5 seconds???

Some of these people really need to get a grip.
		
Click to expand...

No necessarily, our “old farts grasped it“ straight away but they didn’t bother reading this thread, just the simple instructions that we passed out via email and simple posters in the clubhouse.


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Your course handicap is HI 3.8 times slope rating divided bt 118, so 4.2.
		
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It’s a lot simpler if you stop using the maths and stick to the relevant displayed information or perhaps, look at the EG app which gives you the relevant course information and then use the necessary allowance for the comp being played.


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## ger147 (Mar 15, 2021)

IanG said:



			Except that the software systems we all use will do it using the exact calculations so there will be some confusion until people learn that and accept that difference.

The increasing prevalence of mixed tee ( and /or gender) competitions means that computer help is needed for most comps nowadays anyhow.

Mixed roll-ups off multiple tees without a computer is fun and games as we have found out over the past few months 

Click to expand...

Was talking about the informal games using the lookup charts etc.

For club comps, as you say nothing is necessary. I sign in and it tells me what my PH is so no calculations, rounding etc. required.


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Was talking about the informal games using the lookup charts etc.

For club comps, as you say nothing is necessary. I sign in and it tells me what my PH is so no calculations, rounding etc. required.
		
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And if the club has the PSI rigged to a label printer it will also give you course and playing HC to stick on your card.


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 15, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			So the reality is, turn up on Saturday, a bit worse for wear, pack in a bacon sandwich and a quick coffee. Bundle out to the tee, one guy says I am marking the card for the roll up stableford. (Reality, who has a card, anyone? You are marking). What's every one off?
So first guy, I am index 10.1. What the heck does that mean? So the guy doing the card has to look up 10.1, and find out his playing handicap is 12. Fine. But it's not 12, because his handicap allowance is actually 95%, so 11.4, as in 11.
So on for the others, as I can guarantee none if them will have a clue, if they even remember their HI.

Then, let's chuck the balls up for a bit of 4bbb while we are out here. Have a scoot at the card you have just written the h/caps on. Nope. That doesn't help. Why? Because it is 90% of playing, not allowance, and he has just written down the allowance. Cue re shuffle, phaff about, and the guy off 10.1 is back to 10.8, so still 11, but a totally different calculation.

This is so far away from what people used to do, it will be confusing, and I would guess that most will use some form of hybrid mess that WHS was supposed to sort out.
		
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Wow! An almost perfect description of my experience of my three games in December. I met only one other member who new how to do 4bbb correctly. A very large majority are insisting on 100% CH for individual stableford in roll-ups. As a 4.3 HI, I said I was being cheated against by a majority. This prompted some to tell me to "not continue to play in this group if you don't like our rules."  I have tried saying, "Remember your old handicap that you used to play off in medals and stablefords? Well, that has been replaced with a Playing Handicap for individual strokeplay. No effect. Information sent out by England Golf through golf clubs to members was not good enough. The facts did not sink in with many. Now that they are sticking so rigidly to their misconceptions the proper learning process will be much longer than it could have been. At least from 1st April I can play two club comps a week where handicaps will be correct and I can keep away from the arguments. Quite a tough thing to be a tiny minority (one) who is well informed and correct arguing with an angry majority. Time will tell. I hope.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Newsflash, your handicap index can change after every round and therefore your CH and PH could be different etc. 👍🏻
		
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Not that much or that frequently - and if a round forces it's way into my best 8 and my HI changes such that my CH is changed then I work out my new 95% and 85%.  It's not as if my CH is going to be changing after every round - it's not.  Far from it I suspect.


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## D-S (Mar 15, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not that much or that frequently - and if a round forces it's way into my best 8 and my HI changes such that my CH is changed then I work out my new 95% and 85%.  It's not as if my CH is going to be changing after every round - it's not.  Far from it I suspect.
		
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It’s not just whether ‘a round forces it’s way into your best 8’, it is also when one of your best 8 now drops off and which round replaces it, if your better rounds were all a long time ago then you can look forward to your index changing every round for a while.


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			Wow! An almost perfect description of my experience of my three games in December. I met only one other member who new how to do 4bbb correctly. A very large majority are insisting on 100% CH for individual stableford in roll-ups. As a 4.3 HI, I said I was being cheated against by a majority. This prompted some to tell me to "not continue to play in this group if you don't like our rules."  I have tried saying, "Remember your old handicap that you used to play off in medals and stablefords? Well, that has been replaced with a Playing Handicap for individual strokeplay. No effect. Information sent out by England Golf through golf clubs to members was not good enough. The facts did not sink in with many. Now that they are sticking so rigidly to their misconceptions the proper learning process will be much longer than it could have been. At least from 1st April I can play two club comps a week where handicaps will be correct and I can keep away from the arguments. Quite a tough thing to be a tiny minority (one) who is well informed and correct arguing with an angry majority. Time will tell. I hope.
		
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With all the tools and information that clubs had to assist its members change over to the WHS it seems like your club has done very little.


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## jim8flog (Mar 15, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Your course handicap is HI 3.8 times slope rating divided bt 118, so 4.2.
		
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Is that a typo?  It is divide by 113. 
Remember they are in Scotland so rounding is different to England as well.


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2021)

Some may benefit from https://www.englandgolf.org/handica... Union Limited&dm_i=4ON0,114QQ,3B8AOK,4O43A,1


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## ger147 (Mar 15, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not that much or that frequently - and if a round forces it's way into my best 8 and my HI changes such that my CH is changed then I work out my new 95% and 85%.  It's not as if my CH is going to be changing after every round - it's not.  Far from it I suspect.
		
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I thought you will be playing 3 qualifiers a week? A brand new set of 20 rounds every 7 weeks so could well be more variations than you are expecting 👍🏻


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## Troymcclure (Mar 15, 2021)

Hypothetical scenario but accounts for many of my games: 4 mates, friendly individual Stableford knock, not part of a bigger roll-up, gimmies given.

Are people applying the 95%?

In my case everyone is between 11 and 20 CH so if handicap allowance is applied, everyone loses a shot, not applied everyone stays the same.

Do we apply the 95% because, them's the rules, and also so that a sub-11 handicapper isn't disadvantaged by a shot on the rare occasion we're joined by a proper golfer?

No agenda here, just the question.


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2021)

Troymcclure said:



			Hypothetical scenario but accounts for many of my games: 4 mates, friendly individual Stableford knock, not part of a bigger roll-up, gimmies given.

Are people applying the 95%?

In my case everyone is between 11 and 20 CH so if handicap allowance is applied, everyone loses a shot, not applied everyone stays the same.

Do we apply the 95% because, them's the rules, and also so that a sub-11 handicapper isn't disadvantaged by a shot on the rare occasion we're joined by a proper golfer?

No agenda here, just the question.
		
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Personally as it’s a new system I would apply it to get people in the habit.


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## IanG (Mar 15, 2021)

Troymcclure said:



			Hypothetical scenario but accounts for many of my games: 4 mates, friendly individual Stableford knock, not part of a bigger roll-up, gimmies given.

Are people applying the 95%?

In my case everyone is between 11 and 20 CH so if handicap allowance is applied, everyone loses a shot, not applied everyone stays the same.

Do we apply the 95% because, them's the rules, and also so that a sub-11 handicapper isn't disadvantaged by a shot on the rare occasion we're joined by a proper golfer?

No agenda here, just the question.
		
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Slightly different here as most of our bounce games are 4BBB, but we do apply the 90% adjustment to the course handicaps.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 15, 2021)

D-S said:



			It’s not just whether ‘a round forces it’s way into your best 8’, it is also when one of your best 8 now drops off and which round replaces it, if your better rounds were all a long time ago then you can look forward to your index changing every round for a while.
		
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It might well do but every change in my HI is not going to result in a change in my CH, and for as long as my CH does not change I am not that bothered.


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## Old Skier (Mar 15, 2021)

IanG said:



			Slightly different here as most of our bounce games are 4BBB, but we do apply the 90% adjustment to the course handicaps.
		
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See #2548


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## IanG (Mar 15, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			See #2548
		
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 Not sure what you mean here? By 4BBB, I mean 4ball match play which has an allowance of 90% of CH.


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## doublebogey7 (Mar 15, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Only in theory, not in practice i.e. Scottish golf clubs all have charts printed showing CH as a whole number which no doubt most players will use to work out their PH from.
		
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And that will matter not as the IT will have calculated it correctly for competition play.  Also aren't the rest of the world doing it this way,  seems we are the ones doing it wrong to me.


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 16, 2021)

Green Man said:



			I had this argument with the pro in our shop before Xmas. They were running a pro roll up. Pay to enter the Comp then play.
When I asked what was the handicap allowance he said Course Handicap.
I said do you mean Playing handicap? No course handicap as it’s only a bit of fun.

Not much fun for me mate when all the mid / high handicappers are getting more shots that they should.
		
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Same thing happened at our club in December. I called them all out as "cheating". Most of the single figure handicaps didn't complain as they did not understand the new system anyway. For calling them "cheats" I have been ostracised/vilified by a large social group at a club I first joined in 1974. The chairman of management does not respond to my emails. Chairman of H&C does an exquisite job of fence-sitting. Absolutely pathetic behaviour from people I used to call friends. Poor educational information from England Golf throughout 2020 has a lot to answer for. _“A player is expected to act with integrity by following the rules of handicapping and to refrain from using, or circumventing, the rules of handicapping for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage.” _From Rules of Handicapping. How anyone can ignore such a clear statement is beyond me.


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## patricks148 (Mar 16, 2021)

IanG said:



			Slightly different here as most of our bounce games are 4BBB, but we do apply the 90% adjustment to the course handicaps.
		
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after yesterdays humping we will be suggesting bare feet on all 4BBB games from now on


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## sweaty sock (Mar 16, 2021)

I reckon we just take the lead from the rest of sport.  Bin handicaps entirely,  and just let the best player on the day win.  That would end pot hunting and ego trips in a stroke.  

Also takes us one step closer to being the same rules the pros do and removing the bifurcation!


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## Liverpoolphil (Mar 16, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			Same thing happened at our club in December. I called them all out as "cheating". Most of the single figure handicaps didn't complain as they did not understand the new system anyway. For calling them "cheats" I have been ostracised/vilified by a large social group at a club I first joined in 1974. The chairman of management does not respond to my emails. Chairman of H&C does an exquisite job of fence-sitting. Absolutely pathetic behaviour from people I used to call friends. Poor educational information from England Golf throughout 2020 has a lot to answer for. _“A player is expected to act with integrity by following the rules of handicapping and to refrain from using, or circumventing, the rules of handicapping for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage.” _From Rules of Handicapping. How anyone can ignore such a clear statement is beyond me.
		
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So a roll up decided to use their own handicap system and scoring system and you called them cheats ? 🤷‍♂️

Every roll up I play in we use our own system as well and won’t be using any 95% rule 

The only time that will be used will be for official qualifying competitions 

Why are people “cheating” if they use their own system


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## chrisd (Mar 16, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			I reckon we just take the lead from the rest of sport.  Bin handicaps entirely,  and just let the best player on the day win.  That would end pot hunting and ego trips in a stroke. 

Also takes us one step closer to being the same rules the pros do and removing the bifurcation!
		
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And would mean that the same few players would win everything and no one slightly over the lowest handicap would play.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2021)

Traminator said:



			Stableford is now 95% of your CH.

Obviously you can do what you want, but that's how it is now.
		
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...and in stableford we play one hole at a time...so any difference in shots received when applying the 95% factor obviously has the potential to impact your score on the holes you lose a shot on.  And depending upon handicaps of your group that impact cold be different.  As @OS - we should apply the handicapping as defined and in the first instance just to get used to it.


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## jim8flog (Mar 16, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Personally as it’s a new system I would apply it to get people in the habit.
		
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 I originally suggested this in one of the swindles I play in.  Originally everybody agreed but somehow it was not adopted.


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## jim8flog (Mar 16, 2021)

One of the things about al that appears to have been missed is that I know quite a few of the swindles where I play operate their own handicap system any way which is only loosely based upon a players official handicap.

One I joined I won first time I played in it, they cut me two shots and I never got those two shots back for nearly 10 years, when they decided to change to a new system.


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## Voyager EMH (Mar 16, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			One of the things about al that appears to have been missed is that I know quite a few of the swindles where I play operate their own handicap system any way which is only loosely based upon a players official handicap.

One I joined I won first time I played in it, they cut me two shots and I never got those two shots back for nearly 10 years, when they decided to change to a new system.
		
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Any system that a social group decides upon is OK with me if it treats everyone the same so can be considered "fair". It is "unfair" if some players are allowed an extra shot added to their handicap, but other players are never allowed for this to be given. Your old handicap that you use to play off in stableford has been replaced with a Playing Handicap for individual strokeplay. This is my view of the reality. We are here for an exchange of views. Others may take a different view. I am interested by the different views expressed here.
There is no such thing as individual stableford with a 100% allowance. Playing Handicap plus one shot - would have to apply to everyone for it to be fair.


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## jim8flog (Mar 16, 2021)

Voyager EMH said:



			Any system that a social group decides upon is OK with me if it treats everyone the same so can be considered "fair". It is "unfair" if some players are allowed an extra shot added to their handicap, but other players are never allowed for this to be given. Your old handicap that you use to play off in stableford has been replaced with a Playing Handicap for individual strokeplay. This is my view of the reality. We are here for an exchange of views. Others may take a different view. I am interested by the different views expressed here.
There is no such thing as individual stableford with a 100% allowance. Playing Handicap plus one shot - would have to apply to everyone for it to be fair.
		
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 Their was a quote from Pete Dye about Sawgrass last week

" Golf is never a fair game so why should I build a course that is fair"

seems very fitting.


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## sweaty sock (Mar 16, 2021)

chrisd said:



			And would mean that the same few players would win everything and no one slightly over the lowest handicap would play.
		
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So we should be happy that even for its (many) difficulties.  The handicapping system is still the best of its kind in any sport, and allows anyone of any skill level to compete on a more or less level playing field?


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## Troymcclure (Mar 16, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Personally as it’s a new system I would apply it to get people in the habit.
		
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The habit of what?

Doing the calculation or playing off the different handicap the 95% produces? I’m not so sure we need to either way. I think most will choose not to apply it. And 1 shot (I’ve never played with anyone higher than 31 handicap) on a different hole is unlikely to change strategy significantly (remember we’re taking friendly knocks with mates here), and in comps your PH will be printed on the card: no computation necessary.

Still unsure what to suggest to my mates who will be looking to me, as the only one to take much interest in WHS so far. I’m just picturing their crestfallen faces on the 1st when they proudly tell me they’ve downloaded an app, thus retrieved their HI, looked at the big new wallchart and ascertained they’re off 13 if we play whites or 12 yellows. “Wrong guys, it’s 12 or 11, you haven’t applied the 95% handicap allowance.”


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## Troymcclure (Mar 16, 2021)

I think I’ve had a re-think just in the 5 minutes since I last posted 🙂 If we don’t apply the 95% then it will seem odd when we get “docked” a shot in comps. I guess that’s the habit. I think I’ll try and instigate the handicap allowance.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			One of the things about al that appears to have been missed is that I know quite a few of the swindles where I play operate their own handicap system any way which is only loosely based upon a players official handicap.

One I joined I won first time I played in it, they cut me two shots and I never got those two shots back for nearly 10 years, when they decided to change to a new system.
		
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Likewise - handicap is reduced if you are a 'winner' - except your rollup handicap gets reset to club handicap at the end of October and then again end of March.  We will mark our cards (log our score in the app) in accordance with our club handicap and our WHS 'counting' score will be recorded.   For those who are in the mix on any day the roll-up organiser will simply manually deduct stableford points in accordance with their adjusted roll-up handicap as he is checking the cards.


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## HampshireHog (Mar 16, 2021)

I can’t see why you you wouldn’t apply the 95% all the time, surely its more psychologically damaging if you are only losing a shot on a hole when you play a competition.

Personally, I don’t play for money so if someone wants to delude themselves that they’ve scored better than they have, knock yourself out.

If roll ups want their own handicaps so the pot gets shared around I’m all for it.

If someone bangs in a load of crap cards outside of comps and lowers there handicap before a real comp, there probably “gaming“ 😉 the system, and club had better be policing it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 16, 2021)

HampshireHog said:



			I can’t see why you you wouldn’t apply the 95% all the time, surely its more psychologically damaging if you are only losing a shot on a hole when you play a competition.

Personally, I don’t play for money so if someone wants to delude themselves that they’ve scored better than they have, knock yourself out.

If roll ups want their own handicaps so the pot gets shared around I’m all for it.

_If someone bangs in a load of crap cards outside of comps and lowers there handicap before a real comp,_ there probably “gaming“ 😉 the system, and club had better be policing it.
		
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This being one reason (the main reason?) why clubs such as mine want to convert as many 'informal' competitions run within the club by the members - such as rollups - into WHS 'counting' comps.  Members will see other members 'playing' the system and that would not go down well.


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## mikejohnchapman (Mar 16, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			One of the things about al that appears to have been missed is that I know quite a few of the swindles where I play operate their own handicap system any way which is only loosely based upon a players official handicap.

One I joined I won first time I played in it, they cut me two shots and I never got those two shots back for nearly 10 years, when they decided to change to a new system.
		
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Interestingly we had this system in place for a seniors roll-up where "handicaps" were reviewed each month by the organisers and arbitary decisions taken. In the build-up to WHS there were a large number of supplementary scores entered and the real handicaps adjusted significantly before WHS introduction. The roll-up groups have now dropped their own sysrem as the WHS system reflects the current ability of the players (who'd have thought!)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2021)

Draws made for three of the summer comps I'm in.  I can see online who I am playing - also for each player the HI, the CH and for each comp the PH plus shots given/received in the match.  Great!  I don't have to work out anything 

Pity that in the singles K/O I have been drawn against guy who'd be one of the favourites to win it - as is the pair me and my mate have been drawn against in 4BBB K/O.  Ah well.


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## jim8flog (Mar 17, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Draws made for three of the summer comps I'm in.  I can see online who I am playing - also for each player the HI, the CH and for each comp the PH plus shots given/received in the match.  Great!  I don't have to work out anything 

Pity that in the singles K/O I have been drawn against guy who'd be one of the favourites to win it - as is the pair me and my mate have been drawn against in 4BBB K/O.  Ah well.
		
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If they are showing all this info now will it be up to date on the day you play?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 17, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			If they are showing all this info now will it be up to date on the day you play?
		
Click to expand...

I assume that it's 'live' as it's not in a static report format.  I click on the competition name; then I click on _My Opponent Details/Result Entry>View Shots Given_

That then displays my name and my opponents name; and for both of us (in a little tabulated format) our _HI / CH / PH / Diff _with Diff being the shots received.

If I want I can click through to my opponents full WHS scoring record and HI calculation


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## abjectplop (Mar 25, 2021)

Does anyone know how the PCC is calculated? Is there a formula like there was under CONGU CSS? My early experience of posting scores suggests a PCC is less likely than under the old system.


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## Imurg (Mar 25, 2021)

abjectplop said:



			Does anyone know how the PCC is calculated? Is there a formula like there was under CONGU CSS? My early experience of posting scores suggests a PCC is less likely than under the old system.
		
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Probably slightly less witchcraft involved in PCC than CSS but not much....


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## D-S (Mar 25, 2021)

abjectplop said:



			Does anyone know how the PCC is calculated? Is there a formula like there was under CONGU CSS? My early experience of posting scores suggests a PCC is less likely than under the old system.
		
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As far as I understand the formula has not been released to the public, I assume that if you keep it as proprietary information other handicapping tracking software companies cannot replicate WHS exactly.
Also EG believe that PCC will not kick in as often as CSS changes.


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## Bdill93 (Mar 25, 2021)

D-S said:



			As far as I understand the formula has not been released to the public, I assume that if you keep it as proprietary information other handicapping tracking software companies cannot replicate WHS exactly.
Also EG believe that PCC will not kick in as often as CSS changes.
		
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PCC kicked in for one of my 4 rounds submitted since WHS came in - a horrendous morning, wind blowing and the lowest score was a 75 on SSS 68.. Had a few days that werent quite as bad but still pretty bad - no PCC!


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## Ridgeman (Apr 1, 2021)

Yesterday was my first scoring round for the new handicap purposes.  I was 12.1 which is 13 on my course.  I scored a net 73.  I can knock one of that due to someone changing my putter on a par 3 and making me 4 putt it.   They must have swopped it back after as the putting was OK after that.  My handicap was cut to 11.7.  

This is going to get very confusing as the weeks roll by!


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## AliMc (Apr 1, 2021)

Ridgeman said:



			Yesterday was my first scoring round for the new handicap purposes.  I was 12.1 which is 13 on my course.  I scored a net 73.  I can knock one of that due to someone changing my putter on a par 3 and making me 4 putt it.   They must have swopped it back after as the putting was OK after that.  My handicap was cut to 11.7. 

This is going to get very confusing as the weeks roll by!
		
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It's not that confusing really, your score from yesterday must have replaced one of your eight counting scores and the score differential between the two must have been in the region of 3 so you came down by one eighth of 3 so 0.4 🤔


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## ger147 (Apr 1, 2021)

Does anyone know what the WHS handicap allowance is for a tri-am competition?  I can't see anything on the new WHS handicap allowance chart for tri-ams.


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## Ridgeman (Apr 1, 2021)

AliMc said:



			It's not that confusing really, your score from yesterday must have replaced one of your eight counting scores and the score differential between the two must have been in the region of 3 so you came down by one eighth of 3 so 0.4 🤔
		
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My problem is knowing what the best 8 of 20 were and which round is about to drop off.  The scoring online I can see includes winter stablefords etc.  It would be useful to easily see the last 20 counting rounds and what the "best" 8 are.  That way I can keep up to date and keep ahead rather than waiting for the computer to decide the next day.


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## Wabinez (Apr 1, 2021)

Ridgeman said:



			My problem is knowing what the best 8 of 20 were and which round is about to drop off.  The scoring online I can see includes winter stablefords etc.  It would be useful to easily see the last 20 counting rounds and what the "best" 8 are.  That way I can keep up to date and keep ahead rather than waiting for the computer to decide the next day.
		
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If you have the England Golf app, then your scoring rounds are highlighted in green.
On the Intelligent Golf app, your scoring rounds are in yellow with a star.

Pretty sure HDID or other ISVs also highlight your 8 scoring rounds clearly


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## Ridgeman (Apr 1, 2021)

Wabinez said:



			If you have the England Golf app, then your scoring rounds are highlighted in green.
On the Intelligent Golf app, your scoring rounds are in yellow with a star.

Pretty sure HDID or other ISVs also highlight your 8 scoring rounds clearly
		
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I'm Scotland using HowdidIdo app.  Not seeing the scoring rounds separated. I can see medal which of course is scoring but stablefords include non-scoring ones run by pro and scoring ones run by club.  Equally can't download them in order to manipulate them in excel.  I have emailed howdidido support to see if I am missing something


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## AliMc (Apr 1, 2021)

Ridgeman said:



			My problem is knowing what the best 8 of 20 were and which round is about to drop off.  The scoring online I can see includes winter stablefords etc.  It would be useful to easily see the last 20 counting rounds and what the "best" 8 are.  That way I can keep up to date and keep ahead rather than waiting for the computer to decide the next day.
		
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Ok don't know what yours does but on Scottish Golf app we have been using the best 8 rounds from the original 20 were highlighted in yellow (i have 28 scores shown now) the highlighting changes after each new round is added to always show the best 8 from the most recent 20 rounds. 7 of my 8 GP scores have reduced my HI, using my gross score, course index and slope rating I can work out the score differential for my most recent round and work out the effect on my HI before the process runs during the night, it's always fun to check in the morning for confirmation !


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## Ridgeman (Apr 1, 2021)

AliMc said:



			Ok don't know what yours does but on Scottish Golf app we have been using the best 8 rounds from the original 20 were highlighted in yellow (i have 28 scores shown now) the highlighting changes after each new round is added to always show the best 8 from the most recent 20 rounds. 7 of my 8 GP scores have reduced my HI, using my gross score, course index and slope rating I can work out the score differential for my most recent round and work out the effect on my HI before the process runs during the night, it's always fun to check in the morning for confirmation !
		
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Thanks for that.  I can see the 8 in yellow now and the last 20 on the Scottish Golf app!   I have too many apps.  BRS for booking, how did I do for records and Scottish golf for ignoring (up till now).


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## AliMc (Apr 1, 2021)

Ridgeman said:



			Thanks for that.  I can see the 8 in yellow now and the last 20 on the Scottish Golf app!   I have too many apps.  BRS for booking, how did I do for records and Scottish golf for ignoring (up till now).
		
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No worries, we at Dunbar are just changing over to IG but have found the process on the SG app to be really slick


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## jim8flog (Apr 1, 2021)

Ridgeman said:



			Yesterday was my first scoring round for the new handicap purposes.  I was 12.1 which is 13 on my course.  I scored a net 73.  I can knock one of that due to someone changing my putter on a par 3 and making me 4 putt it.   They must have swopped it back after as the putting was OK after that.  My handicap was cut to 11.7. 

This is going to get very confusing as the weeks roll by!
		
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 Just as confusing as to what you mean by someone changing you putter. (assuming it is not just a joke about your own mental state)


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## jim8flog (Apr 1, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Does anyone know what the WHS handicap allowance is for a tri-am competition?  I can't see anything on the new WHS handicap allowance chart for tri-ams.
		
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I do not know what a tri am is please explain the format.


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## ger147 (Apr 1, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			I do not know what a tri am is please explain the format.
		
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Team of 3 players, best net score on each hole counts.


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## rosecott (Apr 1, 2021)

Ridgeman said:



			Yesterday was my first scoring round for the new handicap purposes.  I was 12.1 which is 13 on my course.  I scored a net 73.  I can knock one of that due to someone changing my putter on a par 3 and making me 4 putt it.   They must have swopped it back after as the putting was OK after that.  My handicap was cut to 11.7. 

This is going to get very confusing as the weeks roll by!
		
Click to expand...

Did you calculate your net 73 using Course Handicap or Playing Handicap?


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## rulefan (Apr 1, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Team of 3 players, best net score on each hole counts.
		
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There isn't a recommendation in Appendix C of the WHS manual.
Best 1 of 4 is 75%


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## chrisd (Apr 1, 2021)

So we have a 2 day "friendly Stableford" comp off yellows this weekend. One green temporary off yellows, and apparently it's non qualifying - should it be qualifying given the idea (I thought) was to get as many cards in the system as possible


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## jim8flog (Apr 1, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Team of 3 players, best net score on each hole counts.
		
Click to expand...

I have it in my table

Best one of 3 is 70%

It was in The Guidance on the Rules (from memory)

For future reference 
Teams of 3
Best 1 of 3 stroke play
70%
Best 2 of 3 stroke play
85%
All    3 of 3 stroke play
100%


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## yandabrown (Apr 1, 2021)

rulefan said:



			There isn't a recommendation in Appendix C of the WHS manual.
Best 1 of 4 is 75%
		
Click to expand...

But there is one in the England Golf Guidance for GB&I:

Team Formats of Play: Best of 3 The WHS recommended stroke allowances does not cover advice on ‘Best of’ 3-ball teams. The following stroke allowances should be used:
Best 1 of 3 - 70%
Best 2 of 3 -  85%
All 3 of 3  - 100%

So 70% in this tri am case.

Edit: Jim8flog beat me to it. I got it from: https://www.englandgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/WHS-Rules-Reference-Guide.pdf


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## ger147 (Apr 1, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			I have it in my table

Best one of 3 is 70%

It was in The Guidance on the Rules (from memory)
		
Click to expand...

But best 1 of 4 is 75%? Doesn't seem to make sense...


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## jim8flog (Apr 1, 2021)

ger147 said:



			But best 1 of 4 is 75%? Doesn't seem to make sense...
		
Click to expand...

 Guidance on the Rules of Handicapping 
Appendix I IV Page 43


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## ger147 (Apr 1, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Guidance on the Rules of Handicapping
Appendix I IV Page 43
		
Click to expand...

Unless I'm misunderstanding what best 1 out of 4 means, it doesn't make sense to me you get more shots when there are more members in your team.  70% for a 3 man team vs 75% for a 4 man team looks odd.


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## jim8flog (Apr 1, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Unless I'm misunderstanding what best 1 out of 4 means, it doesn't make sense to me you get more shots when there are more members in your team.  70% for a 3 man team vs 75% for a 4 man team looks odd.
		
Click to expand...

 I am only quoting what it says however that same calculation applies to all teams so it really does not make a difference.

The other side is that the best 2 and all 3 have the same allowance as a 4 ball team.


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## ger147 (Apr 1, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			I am only quoting what it says however that same calculation applies to all teams so it really does not make a difference.

The other side is that the best 2 and all 3 have the same allowance as a 4 ball team.

Click to expand...

Yes and thank you, it's good to know as our committee isn't the best at communicating stuff like this and as our team tees off at 8:30am on Sat morning, it's important to know in advance so we correctly work out the right net scores for our team as we may not see anyone in authority before we tee off.

But as a mathematician to trade, it's odd that it's 70%. For 4BBB (a 2 man team) you get 85% and best 1 of 4 is 75%, so mathematically you would expect a 3 man team to be halfway in between i.e. 80%. So 70% looks odd, to me at least.

Thank you for the info, your help is much appreciated 👍🏻


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## rulefan (Apr 1, 2021)

yandabrown said:



			But there is one in the England Golf Guidance for GB&I:

Team Formats of Play: Best of 3 The WHS recommended stroke allowances does not cover advice on ‘Best of’ 3-ball teams. The following stroke allowances should be used:
Best 1 of 3 - 70%
Best 2 of 3 -  85%
All 3 of 3  - 100%

So 70% in this tri am case.

Edit: Jim8flog beat me to it. I got it from: https://www.englandgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/WHS-Rules-Reference-Guide.pdf

Click to expand...

Thanks. I had forgotten it was added in there.


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## Sweep (Apr 1, 2021)

Anyone’s index altered this week without them putting a card in?
Asking for a friend. No I really am! 😀


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 2, 2021)

As someone who hasn't looked deeply into this, being a sometime competition player at my club. ( no comps elsewhere etc). I had a discussion with my pp yesterday and we were unsure if the changing  condition of the course was part of the calculation re your handicap.

As I understand it, when I book in to the competition my HI is confirmed by the computer. I then take that and , according to a chart at the Club, I use it to ascertain my Course handicap for the course I'm playing and whichever tees are being used? 
That Course handicap  is then used to get the playing handicap for that day which ,say, individual stableford, is 95%?

The discussion was that, as the chart displayed at the Club never changes, (he tells me ), how does the calculation take any account of the changes that might occur to the course?  
Or are we wrong to think that whatever changes to the course might occur do affect the calculation of PI at all.? 

TIA


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## ForeRight (Apr 2, 2021)

If by "changes to the course" you mean permanent alterations to holes etc,  then clubs should request a re-rating when significant changes are made to their golf course.  I suggest your local county union can give guidance on what constitutes a signicifcant change.

If you mean the changes due to the weather conditions, i.e hot / cold or windy / calm , then the rating assumes a reasonably nice day.  Any changes required due to weather are made by the PCC when all scores for the day are processed.


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## jim8flog (Apr 2, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			As someone who hasn't looked deeply into this, being a sometime competition player at my club. ( no comps elsewhere etc). I had a discussion with my pp yesterday and we were unsure if the changing  condition of the course was part of the calculation re your handicap.

As I understand it, when I book in to the competition my HI is confirmed by the computer. I then take that and , according to a chart at the Club, I use it to ascertain my Course handicap for the course I'm playing and whichever tees are being used?
That Course handicap  is then used to get the playing handicap for that day which ,say, individual stableford, is 95%?

The discussion was that, as the chart displayed at the Club never changes, (he tells me ), how does the calculation take any account of the changes that might occur to the course? 
Or are we wrong to think that whatever changes to the course might occur do affect the calculation of PI at all.?

TIA
		
Click to expand...

 As per ForeRight nothing changes before you go out.

His PCC equals Playing Condition Calculation.  Like the old competition standard scratch it this figure which is used to check how you played on the day and sets the figure for your qualifying score for handicap purposes.


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## jim8flog (Apr 2, 2021)

chrisd said:



			So we have a 2 day "friendly Stableford" comp off yellows this weekend. One green temporary off yellows, and apparently it's non qualifying - should it be qualifying given the idea (I thought) was to get as many cards in the system as possible
		
Click to expand...

Only one temp green allows the comp to be a qualifier (you are allowed 2)


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## wjemather (Apr 2, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Only one temp green allows the comp to be a qualifier (you are allowed 2)
		
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As I understand it, the length of the hole(s)/course still needs to be within the allowed variance from the rated distance.


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 2, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			As per ForeRight nothing changes before you go out.

His PCC equals Playing Condition Calculation.  Like the old competition standard scratch it this figure which is used to check how you played on the day and sets the figure for your qualifying score for handicap purposes.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you , gents.  Reckon I've got it now. ( old dog, new tricks syndrome)😀


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## rulefan (Apr 2, 2021)

wjemather said:



			As I understand it, the length of the hole(s)/course still needs to be within the allowed variance from the rated distance.
		
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Appendix G covers it.


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## Ridgeman (Apr 2, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Just as confusing as to what you mean by someone changing you putter. (assuming it is not just a joke about your own mental state)
		
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It was a joke.  I had a 4 putt. Putting rest of round was good


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## 3offTheTee (Apr 2, 2021)

May not be a recognised format but we are playing the following what are the percentage of course Handicap  please:

2 from 3 to Count

Thanks


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## Swango1980 (Apr 3, 2021)

We have our first main competition of the year, which is Better Ball Stableford. This means the Playing Handicap is 85% of Course Handicap.

What is more, the Competition Secretary has told us that we cannot sign in or enter scores via howdidido. I'm not sure if this is because he set it up wrong (he is new), or because of the team format. However, it means that Players will need to work out their 85% Playing handicap themselves if they genuinely want to know what their competition score is before the results are published.

That is going to be fun.

Many members have still not got round to the whole 95% Playing Handicap concept that applies to most competitions played (i.e. singles stroke play)
Many members who have finally got their heads around that, and maybe even aware of the 100% singles match play and 90% fourball match play (i'd imagine a few have got that far), are now going to have 85% thrown at them
Many members, assuming the sheet at club tells them about the 85% playing handicap, will have many blank expressions on the 1st tee box when they try to work this out in their heads, as the software is not going to save them this time (except for their Calculator App on their phone)
I'm predicting some confusion when the results are posted.

I can't possibly think why some people have the nerve to suggest WHS is more confusing that the old system


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## rulefan (Apr 3, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			May not be a recognised format but we are playing the following what are the percentage of course Handicap  please:

2 from 3 to Count

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

See post #2528


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## ger147 (Apr 3, 2021)

Just to follow up on my tri-am question, the format played was best 2 from 3 net scores counted, the handicap allowance was 100% of CH and I'm hearing the leading score is 19 under Par.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 3, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			We have our first main competition of the year, which is Better Ball Stableford. This means the Playing Handicap is 85% of Course Handicap.

What is more, the Competition Secretary has told us that we cannot sign in or enter scores via howdidido. I'm not sure if this is because he set it up wrong (he is new), or because of the team format. However, it means that Players will need to work out their 85% Playing handicap themselves if they genuinely want to know what their competition score is before the results are published.

That is going to be fun.

Many members have still not got round to the whole 95% Playing Handicap concept that applies to most competitions played (i.e. singles stroke play)
Many members who have finally got their heads around that, and maybe even aware of the 100% singles match play and 90% fourball match play (i'd imagine a few have got that far), are now going to have 85% thrown at them
Many members, assuming the sheet at club tells them about the 85% playing handicap, will have many blank expressions on the 1st tee box when they try to work this out in their heads, as the software is not going to save them this time (except for their Calculator App on their phone)
I'm predicting some confusion when the results are posted.

I can't possibly think why some people have the nerve to suggest WHS is more confusing that the old system 

Click to expand...

Ended up a bigger mess than I thought.

The competition secretary wrote the comp rules to read before they went out, and said it was 85% of INDEX rather than Course Handicap. So, the first few groups were playing off mush less shots (especially higher handicappers) than they should have been. Given it was better ball, resulting in some picking up too early.


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## Wabinez (Apr 3, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Ended up a bigger mess than I thought.

The competition secretary wrote the comp rules to read before they went out, and said it was 85% of INDEX rather than Course Handicap. So, the first few groups were playing off mush less shots (especially higher handicappers) than they should have been. Given it was better ball, resulting in some picking up too early.
		
Click to expand...

your competition secretary needs to take a long hard look at himself then. Still, always next time, but I am sure the handicap system will get the blame


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## Swango1980 (Apr 3, 2021)

Wabinez said:



			your competition secretary needs to take a long hard look at himself then. Still, always next time, but I am sure the handicap system will get the blame
		
Click to expand...

Oh, he will. He is pretty new to the role, only started end of last year. Didn't help the software would not let people sign in to see handicaps, so he was doing it in his head. Had software worked, he would have probably at least asked why the playing handicaps looked different


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## 3offTheTee (Apr 3, 2021)

If a player has a Course Handicap of 11 and is playing in a singles stableford I am correct in saying he would receive 11 strokes. 95% of 11 = 10.45 Therefore 11

Is the calculation to 2 decimal points both for Course Handicap AND playing handicap?

Thanks


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## GGTTH (Apr 3, 2021)

How do I go about getting a handicap these days? I don't have one yet but I'd like to start submitting cards everytime I play. Do I always need to play with someone else for them to sign it off?

I usually just play on my own, don't really know anyone at the club I'm at. Feels like it'd be a bit of a chore everytime I book a tee time to ask some random person I've never met to sign my card.


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## Wabinez (Apr 3, 2021)

GGTTH said:



			How do I go about getting a handicap these days? I don't have one yet but I'd like to start submitting cards everytime I play. Do I always need to play with someone else for them to sign it off?

I usually just play on my own, don't really know anyone at the club I'm at. Feels like it'd be a bit of a chore everytime I book a tee time to ask some random person I've never met to sign my card.
		
Click to expand...

Yup, needs to be signed/verified by a playing partner.

Speak to the club and ask if they can set something up or for their best advice as to what to do


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## Swango1980 (Apr 3, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			If a player has a Course Handicap of 11 and is playing in a singles stableford I am correct in saying he would receive 11 strokes. 95% of 11 = 10.45 Therefore 11

Is the calculation to 2 decimal points both for Course Handicap AND playing handicap?

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

10.45 rounded to a whole number is 10, not 11. 10.50 would be 11.


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## GGTTH (Apr 3, 2021)

Wabinez said:



			Yup, needs to be signed/verified by a playing partner.

Speak to the club and ask if they can set something up or for their best advice as to what to do
		
Click to expand...

Im playing on Monday so I'll ask the pro what I need to do then. Just we also have two medals coming up in 2 weeks and I'd quite like to play them since I've never before.

Only other thing I can see is the club allows you to book onto other peoples tee times. But I'd hate to do that, then ask them to record my score for me. Maybe they are just out for a quick round or something, that would be awkward.


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## Wabinez (Apr 3, 2021)

GGTTH said:



			Im playing on Monday so I'll ask the pro what I need to do then. Just we also have two medals coming up in 2 weeks and I'd quite like to play them since I've never before.

Only other thing I can see is the club allows you to book onto other peoples tee times. But I'd hate to do that, then ask them to record my score for me. Maybe they are just out for a quick round or something, that would be awkward.
		
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I wouldn’t worry. Everyone who has held a handicap has been there.


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## HampshireHog (Apr 3, 2021)

GGTTH said:



			Im playing on Monday so I'll ask the pro what I need to do then. Just we also have two medals coming up in 2 weeks and I'd quite like to play them since I've never before.

Only other thing I can see is the club allows you to book onto other peoples tee times. But I'd hate to do that, then ask them to record my score for me. Maybe they are just out for a quick round or something, that would be awkward.
		
Click to expand...

You should still be able to play in the medal, without a handicap you just won’t be eligible for a prize, but your card would count to your handicap.

I wouldn’t worry about asking a stranger to mark a card, worst they can do is say no.  I’d ask the club to help introduce you to someone who would be willing to help if you are worried about it.


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## rulefan (Apr 3, 2021)

GGTTH said:



			Only other thing I can see is the club allows you to book onto other peoples tee times.
		
Click to expand...

If they haven't blocked off the other places then, by implication they are 'inviting' others to join them.



			But I'd hate to do that, then ask them to record my score for me. Maybe they are just out for a quick round or something, that would be awkward.
		
Click to expand...

Players always have to have someone else to record their score.


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## jim8flog (Apr 3, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			If a player has a Course Handicap of 11 and is playing in a singles stableford I am correct in saying he would receive 11 strokes. 95% of 11 = 10.45 Therefore 11

Is the calculation to 2 decimal points both for Course Handicap AND playing handicap?

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Course and Playing Handicaps are the same as the old system 0.5 goes up and 0.4 goes down. However where rounding occurs depends on which part of the UK you are playing in.


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## GGTTH (Apr 3, 2021)

HampshireHog said:



			You should still be able to play in the medal, without a handicap you just won’t be eligible for a prize, but your card would count to your handicap.

I wouldn’t worry about asking a stranger to mark a card, worst they can do is say no.  I’d ask the club to help introduce you to someone who would be willing to help if you are worried about it.
		
Click to expand...

Didn't know that. I'll speak to the pro on Monday. Hopefully an easy solution rather than him telling me 'you'll just need to ask someone'.


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## GGTTH (Apr 3, 2021)

rulefan said:



			If they haven't blocked off the other places then, buy implication they are 'inviting' others to join them.
		
Click to expand...

That's what I thought to be honest but I was reluctant to join. I've left all my bookings so far open and nobody has joined in yet.


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## rulefan (Apr 3, 2021)

GGTTH said:



			That's what I thought to be honest but I was reluctant to join. I've left all my bookings so far open and nobody has joined in yet.
		
Click to expand...

Probably because other members don't know you yet. 
Have you spoken to the club manager yet. It should be his job to help you.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2021)

Initial Handicap given to “new” golfer of 30, first comp he plays to 20, this will be his 4th card in total, first one with official handicap, how is this assessed in WHS?


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## Swango1980 (Apr 3, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Initial Handicap given to “new” golfer of 30, first comp he plays to 20, this will be his 4th card in total, first one with official handicap, how is this assessed in WHS?
		
Click to expand...

His initial index was his lowest score from 3 rounds (lowest score differential) minus 2.0. Now he has 4 scores, his index will be his loweat score differential from the 4 rounds minus 1.0.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			His initial index was his lowest score from 3 rounds (lowest score differential) minus 2.0. Now he has 4 scores, his index will be his loweat score differential from the 4 rounds minus 1.0.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you, sorry, just to clarify, he will possibly be cut from 30 to 19?


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## NearHull (Apr 3, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Probably because other members don't know you yet.
Have you spoken to the club manager yet. It should be his job to help you.
		
Click to expand...

When I moved up to this area and joined my club, my handicap had lapsed.  I knew no one at the club.  I put a note on the notice board asking for members to contact me to have a round  and mark my card.  I included my old handicap to give anyone who was interested some rough idea of my ability.  In a day or so, I had two phone calls from members who offered to play with me and mark a card.  As it happened I only played with one of them, but he remains a really good friend today.  He introduced me to a couple of Roll Ups and I also joined the Seniors ( for the first time ever) and joined in their Roll Ups.  I think I now know over 100 members to play with and chat .  
perhaps this info may help you integrate more easily with your club.  I’ve now been a member for 5 years.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 3, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Thank you, sorry, just to clarify, he will possibly be cut from 30 to 19?
		
Click to expand...

Not that simple. The score differential is (Adjusted Gross - Course Rating) x 113 / Slope. So, do that calculation, then minus 1


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Not that simple. The score differential is (Adjusted Gross - Course Rating) x 113 / Slope. So, do that calculation, then minus 1
		
Click to expand...

Cheers. Last question is it this for every “better” round until he has 20 then best 8 from 20?


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## Swango1980 (Apr 3, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Cheers. Last question is it this for every “better” round until he has 20 then best 8 from 20?
		
Click to expand...

No. As he hand in more scores, the calculation refines itself. So, for example, when 6 scores in (I.e 2 more from now), his Index will he average of best 2 minus 1.0, when 9 in average of best 3, when 12 in average of best 4, and so on. It becomes average of best 8 when 20 in. Thereafter, it stays average of best 8 of previous 20 rounds


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 3, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			No. As he hand in more scores, the calculation refines itself. So, for example, when 6 scores in (I.e 2 more from now), his Index will he average of best 2 minus 1.0, when 9 in average of best 3, when 12 in average of best 4, and so on. It becomes average of best 8 when 20 in. Thereafter, it stays average of best 8 of previous 20 rounds
		
Click to expand...

Brilliant, thank you.


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## Leftie5.6 (Apr 3, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Brilliant, thank you.
		
Click to expand...

Stepping back for a moment, the learning curve for someone new to golf was steep and the rules of handicapping were dark arts as far as the majority of comp golfers were concerned; but WHS is a world of pain all on its own.


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## GGTTH (Apr 4, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Probably because other members don't know you yet.
Have you spoken to the club manager yet. It should be his job to help you.
		
Click to expand...

I've not had much of a chance to speak to anyone. Played one round so far and got chatting to an older gentleman who was very friendly and cruised around on his mobility scooter and gave me some tips on the course (including not to hit driver off hole number 3 as it'll lead to trouble, but I then proceeded to do that anyway and lost a ball  ) . Got three tee times booked this week so going to speak to the pro tomorrow and hopefully he can help get something sorted. I don't really want to be in the situation where I need to go speak to him to get paired up everytime I wanna put a card in so it would be nice to meet new members and play a round with them and hopefully get some regular playing partners. I didn't just join just to play on my own all the time but there will be times where I probably just will for practice or whatever, I'd like to enter the medals and comps and mingle with the members and meet new people that I can play with on a regular basis. I'd also like a handicap not just for the comps but for myself and use it as a barometer for how well I'm doing. I.E if I see my handicap going down then that'll provide me with more motivation to improve etc.

I spoke to the administrator via e-mail when getting my membership originally and he sent out a pack of information but there was nothing on 'how to join comps/medals etc'. I'll speak to the pro tomorrow armed with some questions and hopefully get something sorted.

Am I also right in saying it doesn't need to be a member that can sign my card? As long as it's someone with a WHS handicap?


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## harpo_72 (Apr 4, 2021)

England golf website is quick with The updates after a recorded round, club has not released results yet.


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## rulefan (Apr 4, 2021)

GGTTH said:



			Am I also right in saying it doesn't need to be a member that can sign my card? As long as it's someone with a WHS handicap?
		
Click to expand...

It's upto the club who can mark cards. You'll need to check with the pro. But many clubs require a fellow member but many are happy with anyone with an official handicap. The WHS rule simply requires '_a person who is acceptable to the handicap committee'_.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2021)

A basic - however as we had the debate on 1st tee yesterday on calculating shots given/received in 4BBB.  My understanding is that we each calculate 90% of our CH and each players PH being that after then rounding up/down.  Shots given/received are calculated by difference of each players PH off the lowest PH.  Is that correct?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 4, 2021)

I find that the 85% calc isn’t too difficult if you do it in easy steps.  First I take 10% of handicap, then half that result and add the two.  Round the answer and take off CH. 

So for example if a player has CH of 27,  10% is 2.7, half that is 1.35 add the two gives 4.05 which rounds to 4, So PH for my 27 CH player is 23.


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## upsidedown (Apr 4, 2021)

https://brackenghyllgolfclub.co.uk/weekly-whs-update-new-scorecard/
This club has provided tables for their tees with CH and PH for 95% and 85% included


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## jim8flog (Apr 4, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Initial Handicap given to “new” golfer of 30, first comp he plays to 20, this will be his 4th card in total, first one with official handicap, how is this assessed in WHS?
		
Click to expand...

The full workings are  It takes about 16 scores to be input to get to a handicap reflective of ability

Handicaps can jump around all over the place initially.

5.2 Calculation of a Handicap Index
5.2a For Fewer Than 20 Scores
A Handicap Index is calculated from the lowest Score Differentials in the scoring
record. If a scoring record contains fewer than 20 Score Differentials, the table
below is used to determine the number of Score Differentials to be included in the
calculation and any adjustment that may apply. Round the result of the calculation
to the nearest tenth.
Number of Score Differentials in scoring record and Score Differential(s) to be used in calculation of Handicap
Index
Adjustment
3 Lowest 1 -2.0
4 Lowest 1 -1.0
5 Lowest 1 0
6 Average of lowest 2 -1.0
7 or 8 Average of lowest 2 0
9 to 11 Average of lowest 3 0
12 to 14 Average of lowest 4 0
15 or 16 Average of lowest 5 0
17 or 18 Average of lowest 6 0
19 Average of lowest 7 0
20 Average of lowest 8 0


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## jim8flog (Apr 4, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			A basic - however as we had the debate on 1st tee yesterday on calculating shots given/received in 4BBB.  My understanding is that we each calculate 90% of our CH and each players PH being that after then rounding up/down.  Shots given/received are calculated by difference of each players PH off the lowest PH.  Is that correct?
		
Click to expand...

 That is correct.


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## upsidedown (Apr 4, 2021)

Used the EG app to enter a score this afternoon, easy to sign in and add Hid as player 2. Easy to update scores after each hole with a running total of how many over par and stable Ford points, didn't use side match but will next time. Finished round, signed the box and submitted. Only niggle is you don't get a notification that there is a message to verify Hid score, might be in settings?. Overall for ease of use 9/10.Wouod be 10 for the notification


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## Wabinez (Apr 4, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			Used the EG app to enter a score this afternoon, easy to sign in and add Hid as player 2. Easy to update scores after each hole with a running total of how many over par and stable Ford points, didn't use side match but will next time. Finished round, signed the box and submitted. Only niggle is you don't get a notification that there is a message to verify Hid score, might be in settings?. Overall for ease of use 9/10.Wouod be 10 for the notification
		
Click to expand...

Is the app ready to go for score entry then? I know the android version had a note on the release notes staying scores entered wouldn’t count towards handicapping


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## upsidedown (Apr 4, 2021)

Wabinez said:



			Is the app ready to go for score entry then? I know the android version had a note on the release notes staying scores entered wouldn’t count towards handicapping

View attachment 36003

Click to expand...

Will see tomorrow, messages on both our pages say score has been approved.


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## Leftie5.6 (Apr 4, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			Will see tomorrow, messages on both our pages say score has been approved.
		
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Great if you can post confirmation tomorrow- possible your h/c sec will have to accept the score to affect yr h/c - this was the case for “away” scores.


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## upsidedown (Apr 4, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			Will see tomorrow, messages on both our pages say score has been approved.
		
Click to expand...




Leftie5.6 said:



			Great if you can post confirmation tomorrow- possible your h/c sec will have to accept the score to affect yr h/c - this was the case for “away” scores.
		
Click to expand...

Talked to H/C  sec ,he has looked and no record under ClubV1 for our rounds as casual rounds so has entered scores for us . he was also disappointed that scores can't be entered via the app, what's the point of releasing it if it doesn't do it !! Rounds now showing in the EG app awaiting HI update overnight. Will amend rating to 8/10 as it can't be used for handicapping yet


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## davidy233 (Apr 4, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			Talked to H/C  sec ,he has looked and no record under ClubV1 for our rounds as casual rounds so has entered scores for us . he was also disappointed that scores can't be entered via the app, what's the point of releasing it if it doesn't do it !! Rounds now showing in the EG app awaiting HI update overnight. Will amend rating to 8/10 as it can't be used for handicapping yet 

Click to expand...

My wife has entered a couple of general play scores via the Scottish Golf app and they've gone through no problem - I'd have thought the English one would be similar.


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## upsidedown (Apr 4, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			My wife has entered a couple of general play scores via the Scottish Golf app and they've gone through no problem - I'd have thought the English one would be similar.
		
Click to expand...




Wabinez said:



			Is the app ready to go for score entry then? I know the android version had a note on the release notes staying scores entered wouldn’t count towards handicapping

View attachment 36003

Click to expand...

That's what we thought would be the case but as per Wabinez post apparently not


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## Wabinez (Apr 4, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			That's what we thought would be the case but as per Wabinez post apparently not 

Click to expand...

I know it is coming very soon. Why they would release the option to score, but it mean nothing for your handicap makes no sense at all


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## Leftie5.6 (Apr 4, 2021)

It's not just pending and the EG servers update in the early hours tomorrow?


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## upsidedown (Apr 4, 2021)

Wabinez said:



			I know it is coming very soon. Why they would release the option to score, but it mean nothing for your handicap makes no sense at all
		
Click to expand...

Indeed, unless they are just trialling it for "Nomads " ? as the GPS bit certainly picked up where we were. For future rounds will use the ClubV1 app scoring input , does that go hole by hole as you play or do you have to wait until round completed , it's all a voyage of discovery , a bit like my putting today 


Leftie5.6 said:



			It's not just pending and the EG servers update in the early hours tomorrow?
		
Click to expand...

I don't think as even though it said the round was approved it wasn't showing in my playing record on the app but once the round was entered as a casual round in ClubV1  it was showing in the EG app and in my HDID record .


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## Old Skier (Apr 4, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			Talked to H/C  sec ,he has looked and no record under ClubV1 for our rounds as casual rounds so has entered scores for us . he was also disappointed that scores can't be entered via the app, what's the point of releasing it if it doesn't do it !! Rounds now showing in the EG app awaiting HI update overnight. Will amend rating to 8/10 as it can't be used for handicapping yet 

Click to expand...

If your using V1 you can enter scores via HDID.


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## upsidedown (Apr 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			If your using V1 you can enter scores via HDID.
		
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Can you enter your scores  hole by hole as you play?


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## Old Skier (Apr 4, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			Can you enter your scores  hole by hole as you play?
		
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Why would you want to, it would result in even slower rounds of golf.


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## upsidedown (Apr 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Why would you want to, it would result in even slower rounds of golf.
		
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Not on today's evidence, pulled phone out as you would  a scorecard, tapped on the hole +or - for the score and done. Probably faster than writing a score physically 👍


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## Old Skier (Apr 4, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			Not on today's evidence, pulled phone out as you would  a scorecard, tapped on the hole +or - for the score and done. Probably faster than writing a score physically 👍
		
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For very few perhaps but for the majority unlikely. I don’t know many golfers carry a phone in their back pocket.


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## azazel (Apr 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Why would you want to, it would result in even slower rounds of golf.
		
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We’ve been entering scores through the app only for weeks and it’s quicker than writing on a scorecard 👍🏻


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## upsidedown (Apr 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			For very few perhaps but for the majority unlikely. I don’t know many golfers carry a phone in their back pocket.
		
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For all that use a phone app as GPS they're already doing it, or conversely the phone is in a pocket in the bag. Granted only practical for non rainy days 😉😁. But for others so much easier and saves using a scorecard and saves a wee bit more of the planet, we'll OK may be not 🌏😂


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## Wabinez (Apr 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			For very few perhaps but for the majority unlikely. I don’t know many golfers carry a phone in their back pocket.
		
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I carry my phone in a pocket on my golf bag, similar to my scorecard.

get to the next tee, enter the score when others are teeing off. Job done.


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## Old Skier (Apr 4, 2021)

Wabinez said:



			I carry my phone in a pocket on my golf bag, similar to my scorecard.

get to the next tee, enter the score when others are teeing off. Job done.
		
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Just think of those (of us ) who can only just see a score card without having to fiddle with screen locks, and for those of us living in the West Country, the SUN


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## davidy233 (Apr 4, 2021)

I have a phone in my back pocket every round - not used it to input scores during a round but I'd have no qualms doing it - as for rain, my phone is waterproof and I still remember that round at Cruden Bay where my (issued to me at desk on check-in in an Open with name printed on it) card had disintegrated by the 13th in howling gale and pouring rain.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 4, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			Not on today's evidence, pulled phone out as you would  a scorecard, tapped on the hole +or - for the score and done. Probably faster than writing a score physically 👍
		
Click to expand...

Would be pretty cool if the apps like HDID started doing that, and they could show live leaderboards


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## AliMc (Apr 4, 2021)

Wabinez said:



			I carry my phone in a pocket on my golf bag, similar to my scorecard.

get to the next tee, enter the score when others are teeing off. Job done.
		
Click to expand...

We've just been marking every three holes as you say when someone else is teeing off, literally takes seconds


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## Old Skier (Apr 4, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Would be pretty cool if the apps like HDID started doing that, and they could show live leaderboards
		
Click to expand...

I think they do, or is the live leaderboard only available on the members hub. You can do score entry.


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## upsidedown (Apr 4, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Would be pretty cool if the apps like HDID started doing that, and they could show live leaderboards
		
Click to expand...

Ours goes live after last player has teed off, V1 and I've checked over the closing holes to see where I'm fairing if on a good round 😉


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## Junior (Apr 5, 2021)

Initial thoughts are that the system is ok, but, it requires players to submit a lot more supplementary scores to keep their handicap relevant. 

Most of the people I have spoken to about WHS won't be doing this.  They'll just play their 15 or so club comps ( qualifiers) a year.   Indeed , some will play more, some less.

The system seems to be designed for golfers who cant afford to be a member of a golf club (ie, in the USA where it is expensive) and play lots of away golf at different courses and not necessarily the dynamic if a UK club membership.  Im going to try and engage in it and play a lot more rounds with card in hand.


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2021)

Junior said:



			Initial thoughts are that the system is ok, but, it requires players to submit a lot more supplementary scores to keep their handicap relevant.

Most of the people I have spoken to about WHS won't be doing this.  They'll just play their 15 or so club comps ( qualifiers) a year.   Indeed , some will play more, some less.

The system seems to be designed for golfers who cant afford to be a member of a golf club (ie, in the USA where it is expensive) and play lots of away golf at different courses and not necessarily the dynamic if a UK club membership.  Im going to try and engage in it and play a lot more rounds with card in hand.
		
Click to expand...

Interested to know why you feel the need for more casual rounds.


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## upsidedown (Apr 5, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			Used the EG app to enter a score this afternoon, easy to sign in and add Hid as player 2. Easy to update scores after each hole with a running total of how many over par and stable Ford points, didn't use side match but will next time. Finished round, signed the box and submitted. Only niggle is you don't get a notification that there is a message to verify Hid score, might be in settings?. Overall for ease of use 9/10.Wouod be 10 for the notification
		
Click to expand...

Well that seems a bit strange Hid HI has gone up overnight but mine has stayed the same despite losing from my last 20 rounds my best score. 🤔


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## Junior (Apr 5, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Interested to know why you feel the need for more casual rounds.
		
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Because the more you play, the more accurate your handicap will be based on your best 8 from 20.    

Ordinarily I'll play 15 or so qualifiers a season, some at my club only play board comps.  As such, the span of "20 rounds" could be from as long as a year ago.


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## Wabinez (Apr 5, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			Well that seems a bit strange Hid HI has gone up overnight but mine has stayed the same despite losing from my last 20 rounds my best score. 🤔
		
Click to expand...

What did that scoring round get replaced by in your last 20?


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## upsidedown (Apr 5, 2021)

Wabinez said:



			What did that scoring round get replaced by in your last 20?
		
Click to expand...

74 was knocked out by  81, next best in the 20 is a 76. The 74 is still highlighted but H/C sec has now  deleted it so hopefully overnight it will right it self. He going to write to EG about the handicapping on the EG app


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## upsidedown (Apr 5, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			Well that seems a bit strange Hid HI has gone up overnight but mine has stayed the same despite losing from my last 20 rounds my best score. 🤔
		
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H/C looked this morning and could see a score input Intent as well as the score submitted yesterday. Both wondering if the intent is from the EG app we scored on but then overided it by entering a casual score through V1


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 5, 2021)

As I wear contact lens for distance vision when playing I can’t read the screen of my phone to enter my score and can’t be bothered doing glasses on-glasses off.  I record my score on a card and when I have finished I enter my round in the app.  Works much better for me as much less of a fiddle.


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## AliMc (Apr 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As I wear contact lens for distance vision when playing I can’t read the screen of my phone to enter my score and can’t be bothered doing glasses on-glasses off.  I record my score on a card and when I have finished I enter my round in the app.  Works much better for me as much less of a fiddle.
		
Click to expand...

I may be wrong here but I don't think that the SG App would let you do this as it has time constraints built in, at least not all 18 holes in one go, for example at the 10th it will display a message advising that you can't submit the card for, eg, another 1hour 15 minutes, presumably based on how long it's taken to play the first nine (message based on when we were playing 2 balls in around 2 and a half hours)


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2021)

AliMc said:



			I may be wrong here but I don't think that the SG App would let you do this as it has time constraints built in, at least not all 18 holes in one go, for example at the 10th it will display a message advising that you can't submit the card for, eg, another 1hour 15 minutes, presumably based on how long it's taken to play the first nine (message based on when we were playing 2 balls in around 2 and a half hours)
		
Click to expand...

HDID can let you do it on the move however there will be a time delay on the EG app.


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## Leftie5.6 (Apr 5, 2021)

AliMc said:



			I may be wrong here but I don't think that the SG App would let you do this as it has time constraints built in, at least not all 18 holes in one go, for example at the 10th it will display a message advising that you can't submit the card for, eg, another 1hour 15 minutes, presumably based on how long it's taken to play the first nine (message based on when we were playing 2 balls in around 2 and a half hours)
		
Click to expand...

That’s unreasonable. The average age of males at my home club is late 60’s. Inevitably there will b difficulty using the phone app on-course and mistakes are far more likely to be made.


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2021)

Leftie5.6 said:



			That’s unreasonable. The average age of males at my home club is late 60’s. Inevitably there will b difficulty using the phone app on-course and mistakes are far more likely to be made.
		
Click to expand...

This, fine afterwards but not necessary on course and could lead to errors. Our ladies on mass now use the HDID app after the round.


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## nickjdavis (Apr 5, 2021)

Is there any documentation that describes what a committee must do when a new member joins who has been away from the game for some time....for example a player may not have been a member of a club for say a year but has a good or even full scoring record.

In the old days...if a player left a club his handicap would be lost immediately...but if he joined a new club within 6 months then his handicap would be reinstated at its previous level. Anything longer than 6 months he would be required to submit cards with his previous handicap being taken into consideration.

Cant find any guidance as to how to handle similar situations under the WHS.


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Is there any documentation that describes what a committee must do when a new member joins who has been away from the game for some time....for example a player may not have been a member of a club for say a year but has a good or even full scoring record.

In the old days...if a player left a club his handicap would be lost immediately...but if he joined a new club within 6 months then his handicap would be reinstated at its previous level. Anything longer than 6 months he would be required to submit cards with his previous handicap being taken into consideration.

Cant find any guidance as to how to handle similar situations under the WHS.
		
Click to expand...

Nothing there that I can see in either document. Perhaps, at last, your membership no/CDH really is life long, not sure what would/will happen with the old - can’t remember - merchant.


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Nothing there that I can see in either document. Perhaps, at last, your membership no/CDH really is life long, not sure what would/will happen with the old - can’t remember - merchant.
		
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Does anyone know if access to the old CDH DB is still available as it won’t let me in.


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## IanMcC (Apr 5, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Does anyone know if access to the old CDH DB is still available as it won’t let me in.
		
Click to expand...

Certainly the Welsh Golf Database at Golfbox is inaccessible.


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## D-S (Apr 5, 2021)

Regional handicap advisors still have accesss to the CDH database but I believe it is being ‘turned off’ in a few months,I think I heard that in one of the pre Xmas EG virtual handicap meetings.


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## rulefan (Apr 5, 2021)

D-S said:



			Regional handicap advisors still have accesss to the CDH database but I believe it is being ‘turned off’ in a few months,I think I heard that in one of the pre Xmas EG virtual handicap meetings.
		
Click to expand...

That is correct. I can get in but for not much longer.


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## rosecott (Apr 5, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Does anyone know if access to the old CDH DB is still available as it won’t let me in.
		
Click to expand...

I had an issue with WHS over a member without a valid email address so he appeared with no HI and no scoring record and was given a new CDH ID. I sought WHS advice on how to proceed when I sorted the email problem and he was re-instated with his original CDH and scoring history. I assume that this means that the WHS system has full access to the old UHS CDH data, including that of resigned players so, with a bit of sleuthing, it should be possible to find all sorts of things about all sorts of players.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 5, 2021)

rosecott said:



			I had an issue with WHS over a member without a valid email address so he appeared with no HI and no scoring record and was given a new CDH ID. I sought WHS advice on how to proceed when I sorted the email problem and he was re-instated with his original CDH and scoring history. I assume that this means that the WHS system has full access to the old UHS CDH data, including that of resigned players so, with a bit of sleuthing, it should be possible to find all sorts of things about all sorts of players.
		
Click to expand...

Oh no


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## jim8flog (Apr 5, 2021)

Junior said:



			Initial thoughts are that the system is ok, but, it requires players to submit a lot more supplementary scores to keep their handicap relevant.

Most of the people I have spoken to about WHS won't be doing this.  They'll just play their 15 or so club comps ( qualifiers) a year.   Indeed , some will play more, some less.

The system seems to be designed for golfers who cant afford to be a member of a golf club (ie, in the USA where it is expensive) and play lots of away golf at different courses and not necessarily the dynamic if a UK club membership.  Im going to try and engage in it and play a lot more rounds with card in hand.
		
Click to expand...


  If somebody is putting 15 cards a year then they are above average any way and I would not see the need for General Play rounds as well.

It is those that only put in 2 or 3 that need to add in GP rounds and those who have less than 20 qualifying scores in their handicap record.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 5, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			If somebody is putting 15 cards a year then they are above average any way and I would not see the need for General Play rounds as well.

It is those that only put in 2 or 3 that need to add in GP rounds and those who have less than 20 qualifying scores in their handicap record.
		
Click to expand...

Question, if no new cards are submitted will an existing handicap remain active ?


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## AliMc (Apr 5, 2021)

Leftie5.6 said:



			That’s unreasonable. The average age of males at my home club is late 60’s. Inevitably there will b difficulty using the phone app on-course and mistakes are far more likely to be made.
		
Click to expand...

Don't think it's too unreasonable, it's probably been built into the system to stop people from sitting in the clubhouse keying in 18 holes without stepping on the course, not that anyone would do that of course !


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## Swinglowandslow (Apr 5, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			If somebody is putting 15 cards a year then they are above average any way and I would not see the need for General Play rounds as well.

It is those that only put in 2 or 3 that need to add in GP rounds and those who have less than 20 qualifying scores in their handicap record.
		
Click to expand...

It's the "need to" worries me slightly. I do not set out to play X amount of competitions. I play mostly social golf, with a few comps now and then.
( not opens, just a few club comps) 
Chaps like me seem to be anathema to whs. I get the idea that they really want you to be competition minded?
We'll see how it goes😀


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## jim8flog (Apr 5, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Question, if no new cards are submitted will an existing handicap remain active ?
		
Click to expand...

 By active I presume you you mean have a handicap (the word active has other connotations in Handicap terms).

You have a handicap as long as you remain a member of an Affiliated golf club.

Competition Status disappeared with the WHS.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 5, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			Question, if no new cards are submitted will an existing handicap remain active ?
		
Click to expand...

Yes, no such thing as active or inactive, or "c" status anymore. A player may not submit a card for years, and still have a normal handicap. Up to competition organisers of they want any entry requirements regarding number of rounds submitted for handicap


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## jim8flog (Apr 5, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It's the "need to" worries me slightly. I do not set out to play X amount of competitions. I play mostly social golf, with a few comps now and then.
( not opens, just a few club comps)
Chaps like me seem to be anathema to whs. I get the idea that they really want you to be competition minded?
We'll see how it goes😀
		
Click to expand...

 When it was coming in I was checking all players. We have more than 100 who have not put in a card since Jan 2018 or earlier I cannot see them putting in cards just because we now have the WHS.

I reckon the main reason any player should put in a reasonable number of cards is just to have a handicap that reflects their current ability and that works for both types, too low a one and too high a one.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 5, 2021)

Thanks guys, this year I intend to only enter better ball comps or Texas scrambles home or away. Sadly my sore back wont allow me to play a full round hitting every shot .


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## rosecott (Apr 5, 2021)

Swinglowandslow said:



			It's the "need to" worries me slightly. I do not set out to play X amount of competitions. I play mostly social golf, with a few comps now and then.
( not opens, just a few club comps)
Chaps like me seem to be anathema to whs. I get the idea that they really want you to be competition minded?
We'll see how it goes😀
		
Click to expand...

Perhaps the intention is not to make you competition minded. I think that, with WHS, the intention is to instil the mindset that "a card in hand" is no big deal and that the more cards which go to WHS the better the reflection of your ability.


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## rosecott (Apr 5, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



Oh no 

Click to expand...

I'm sure SG already know everything about you.


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## upsidedown (Apr 5, 2021)

rosecott said:



			Perhaps the intention is not to make you competition minded. I think that, with WHS, the intention is to instil the mindset that "a card in hand" is no big deal and that the more cards which go to WHS the better the reflection of your ability.
		
Click to expand...

It certainly became that playing under NZ versions of WHS, just another round with no added pressure .


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## williamalex1 (Apr 5, 2021)

rosecott said:



			I'm sure SG already know everything about you.
		
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That was a Not Proven verdict


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## nickjdavis (Apr 5, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			Used the EG app to enter a score this afternoon, easy to sign in and add Hid as player 2. Easy to update scores after each hole with a running total of how many over par and stable Ford points, didn't use side match but will next time. Finished round, signed the box and submitted. Only niggle is you don't get a notification that there is a message to verify Hid score, might be in settings?. Overall for ease of use 9/10.Wouod be 10 for the notification
		
Click to expand...

I saw that this was now available so used the EG app today.

All went fine until it comes to my PP attesting my score...the app does not seem to allow me to select my PP's name....despite it being there under the list of playing partners it wont let me select his name.


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## SammmeBee (Apr 5, 2021)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			As I wear contact lens for distance vision when playing I can’t read the screen of my phone to enter my score and can’t be bothered doing glasses on-glasses off.  I record my score on a card and when I have finished I enter my round in the app.  Works much better for me as much less of a fiddle.
		
Click to expand...

How can you see the scorecard to write then.......???


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## rulefan (Apr 5, 2021)

rosecott said:



			I had an issue with WHS over a member without a valid email address so he appeared with no HI and no scoring record and was given a new CDH ID. I sought WHS advice on how to proceed when I sorted the email problem and he was re-instated with his original CDH and scoring history. I assume that this means that the WHS system has full access to the old UHS CDH data, including that of resigned players so, with a bit of sleuthing, it should be possible to find all sorts of things about all sorts of players.
		
Click to expand...

The only people who will have access to the old CDH database will be England Golf staff, for viewing only. This goes back to the start of the CDH. 
The WHS (software) system only ever received a CDH data file for the transition. It was limited to score records back to 1 Jan 2018. It will not be replicated or reprocessed.


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## upsidedown (Apr 5, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			I saw that this was now available so used the EG app today.

All went fine until it comes to my PP attesting my score...the app does not seem to allow me to select my PP's name....despite it being there under the list of playing partners it wont let me select his name.
		
Click to expand...

Did you click on the grey box under Attester/Marker?


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## nickjdavis (Apr 5, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			Did you click on the grey box under Attester/Marker?
		
Click to expand...

Yes....it gave me a list of my playing partners but wouldn't allow me to select any of them.

Seemingly it didn't like me just writing their name in as my marker before starting the round...the app wanted me to select from specific member records from our club. Now sorted but my attestor is now trying to figure out how he goes about verifying my score...he's got a message via the App but it doesnt give him any clues as to how to verify the score.


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## nickjdavis (Apr 5, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Nothing there that I can see in either document. Perhaps, at last, your membership no/CDH really is life long, not sure what would/will happen with the old - can’t remember - merchant.
		
Click to expand...

Its not so much the membership or CDH number that is the issue here.....its the actual handicap itself.....how long can a player have not been a member of another club before you have the right to ask him to submit three more cards to re-liven his handicap when he joins your club....do you then have to accept his newly calculated index as his handicap? If he joins your club less than 6 months after leavign his old club....does his index automatically become live again? If he joins your club 2 years after leaving his old club...does his index immediately become live again?


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## upsidedown (Apr 5, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Yes....it gave me a list of my playing partners but wouldn't allow me to select any of them.

Seemingly it didn't like me just writing their name in as my marker before starting the round...the app wanted me to select from specific member records from our club. Now sorted but my attestor is now trying to figure out how he goes about verifying my score...he's got a message via the App but it doesnt give him any clues as to how to verify the score.
		
Click to expand...

Ah right. Hid was also doing a score so we'd selected each other as PP so was only her name to choose from. Took me a while to realises you had to click on the box and not attester/marker 😉😅. 
Hope all goes through OK tonight 👍


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Its not so much the membership or CDH number that is the issue here.....its the actual handicap itself.....how long can a player have not been a member of another club before you have the right to ask him to submit three more cards to re-liven his handicap when he joins your club....do you then have to accept his newly calculated index as his handicap? If he joins your club less than 6 months after leavign his old club....does his index automatically become live again? If he joins your club 2 years after leaving his old club...does his index immediately become live again?
		
Click to expand...

Good question. Wouldn’t this be like a club member who rarely plays in qualifiers?


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## nickjdavis (Apr 5, 2021)

Well he has got a message now asking to attest my score....but when he clicks on the right arrow next to the message....it does nothing.

I'm wondering if its because he is an iPhone user...it seems that currently the Apple version of the App doesnt allow "score entry" (I've just downloaded it on the wifes IPhone and logged on and it doesnt give the option)....wondering if you need the "enter score" feature to be able to attest to scores?


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## nickjdavis (Apr 5, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Good question. Wouldn’t this be like a club member who rarely plays in qualifiers?
		
Click to expand...

In some respects yes but because he remains a club member his handicap is always valid....in the old Congu days when you left a club your handicap was lost but there were defined rules as to what a handicap sec had to do when the player rejoined a new club depending on how long ago the player left their previous club

From the old Congu manual...

26.1 A CONGU® Handicap is lost when a player ceases to be a Member of an Affiliated Club. When a player resigns from a club and joins another there is often a time interval between the two memberships. If the handicap of a player is to be restored within twelve months of the date on which his handicap was lost, or suspended, it must be reinstated at the same handicap the player last held. In restoring the handicap of a player whose ‘c’ status handicap has been lost in such circumstances that ‘c’ status shall remain valid for the remainder of the calendar year of resignation and for the full following calendar year. In all other cases the player shall be allotted a new handicap after he has complied with the requirements of Clause 16.

 26.2 When restoring a handicap which has been lost or suspended for more than twelve months the Handicap Committee, in addition to proceeding as required by Clause 16, must give due and full consideration to the handicap the player last held (see Clause 16.3). A Category 1 handicap must not be allotted without the approval of the Union or Area Authority if so delegated.

Doesnt seem to be any parallel guidance in the WHS.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 5, 2021)

I've been the marker for at least 2 players in the last week, scores entered by them on howdidido. I've never had a notification to verify their score. Should I have done?


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I've been the marker for at least 2 players in the last week, scores entered by them on howdidido. I've never had a notification to verify their score. Should I have done?
		
Click to expand...

No nothing like that on the HDID app but it does notify on the system who the marker is so any queries can be dealt with.


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## Old Skier (Apr 5, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Well he has got a message now asking to attest my score....but when he clicks on the right arrow next to the message....it does nothing.

I'm wondering if its because he is an iPhone user...it seems that currently the Apple version of the App doesnt allow "score entry" (I've just downloaded it on the wifes IPhone and logged on and it doesnt give the option)....wondering if you need the "enter score" feature to be able to attest to scores?
		
Click to expand...

Same on iPad,  not updated like android.


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## nickjdavis (Apr 5, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I've been the marker for at least 2 players in the last week, scores entered by them on howdidido. I've never had a notification to verify their score. Should I have done?
		
Click to expand...

Specifically my issues relate to the England Golf App....maybe we should have a separate thread for it?


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## wjemather (Apr 5, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Specifically my issues relate to the England Golf App....maybe we should have a separate thread for it?
		
Click to expand...

Score entry is currently only on the android beta version, so most people won't have it.


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## nickjdavis (Apr 5, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Score entry is currently only on the android beta version, so most people won't have it.
		
Click to expand...

I'm assuming that anyone can download version 1.0.2 from the Android AppStore?

In which case if having the score entry feature is required to allow a player to attest anothers score, then warning should be given that players not running the latest version wont be able to attest your scores.


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## wjemather (Apr 5, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			I'm assuming that anyone can download version 1.0.2 from the Android AppStore?

In which case if having the score entry feature is required to allow a player to attest anothers score, then warning should be given that players not running the latest version wont be able to attest your scores.
		
Click to expand...

I assume anyone can sign up to the beta. Yes, that would have been useful - but it is the beta, and I wouldn't expect it in the full release since everyone should have it then.


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## nickjdavis (Apr 6, 2021)

wjemather said:



			I assume anyone can sign up to the beta. Yes, that would have been useful - but it is the beta, and I wouldn't expect it in the full release since everyone should have it then.
		
Click to expand...

But unless i am misunderstanding....what I have on my phone is what I've downloaded from the Android App store....i dont remember signing up for a beta trial....I'm just a normal user who became aware of the score entry function and updated my app so i could try it.

Our handicap secretary has done exactly the same earlier today.


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## upsidedown (Apr 6, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			But unless i am misunderstanding....what I have on my phone is what I've downloaded from the Android App store....i dont remember signing up for a beta trial....I'm just a normal user who became aware of the score entry function and updated my app so i could try it.

Our handicap secretary has done exactly the same earlier today.
		
Click to expand...

I've raised a ticket with EG and County handicap sec is also on the case as to why my HI has not changed following Sundays score


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## nickjdavis (Apr 6, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			I've raised a ticket with EG and County handicap sec is also on the case as to why my HI has not changed following Sundays score
		
Click to expand...

I take it that it was a good score then that should feature in your best 8 ?


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## upsidedown (Apr 6, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			I take it that it was a good score then that should feature in your best 8 ?
		
Click to expand...

Yes I've lost my best score of my best 8 and by my calculations should go up by 0.2


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## GGTTH (Apr 7, 2021)

I spoke to the pro and he passed my number to another new member who gave me a call yesterday with regards to playing a round. Shame I'm unable to make that day but hoping to reschedule and get my first card in.

I also found out that literally anyone I play with can sign the card. Member, Guest, Vistors and they don't even need to have a handicap themselves apparently.


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## upsidedown (Apr 7, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			I've raised a ticket with EG and County handicap sec is also on the case as to why my HI has not changed following Sundays score
		
Click to expand...




upsidedown said:



			Yes I've lost my best score of my best 8 and by my calculations should go up by 0.2
		
Click to expand...

Have had a reply from EG and issue seems to be from Club Championships back in 2019 with 2 rounds being entered on the day which were my 19th and 20th ( now 20th and 21st ) By adjusting the date on one of them to day after. My best score from 8 is now my 20th.


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## 3offTheTee (Apr 8, 2021)

In the past if I played an ‘away’ course in an Open there was a CSS for Home and Away players.

Is there still going to,be a differential with a playing Condition Calculation being in evidence which in the past invariably meant a higher CSS  for away players?


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## 3offTheTee (Apr 8, 2021)

Just looked at my best 8 from last 20 scores and number 20 is included which will be deleted after Saturday which is a Stableford Comp..

My HI at present is 18.4 and number 20 has the following from EG App:- score 92, Course22, Slope133,Handicap Diff. 17.8, Course  Rating 71.1.

Can  one of you WHS experts tell me what Stableford points I need to keep the same or improve and would it be any different if a Medal. A breakdown of the calculation  would be appreciate.

Thanks


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## Swango1980 (Apr 8, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Just looked at my best 8 from last 20 scores and number 20 is included which will be deleted after Saturday which is a Stableford Comp..

My HI at present is 18.4 and number 20 has the following from EG App:- score 92, Course22, Slope133,Handicap Diff. 17.8, Course  Rating 71.1.

Can  one of you WHS experts tell me what Stableford points I need to keep the same or improve and would it be any different if a Medal. A breakdown of the calculation  would be appreciate.

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

If you are losing a score of differential of 17.8 from your best 8, you'll want a score that at least matches that to stay the same, so that will replace it in your top 8. It depends on what tees you are playing from in terms of what that actual score needs to be. If the same tees, then likely 92. But, it also depends what the PCC was on the score you are losing, and what the PCC will end up being on Sunday. If you have a bad score, look at the scores (score differentials) in your current worst 12, as the best one of those will end up replacing the one you lose.


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## jim8flog (Apr 8, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			In the past if I played an ‘away’ course in an Open there was a CSS for Home and Away players.

Is there still going to,be a differential with a playing Condition Calculation being in evidence which in the past invariably meant a higher CSS  for away players?
		
Click to expand...

 From memory of when we had the original briefings I think not because the WHS effectively makes it a level playing field as far as handicaps are concerned.


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## rulefan (Apr 8, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			In the past if I played an ‘away’ course in an Open there was a CSS for Home and Away players.

Is there still going to,be a differential with a playing Condition Calculation being in evidence which in the past invariably meant a higher CSS  for away players?
		
Click to expand...

No


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## 3offTheTee (Apr 9, 2021)

We have a Greensomes next week. 40% lower plus 60% higher course handicap. Are the individual resulting figures worked out to a whole number then added together or as before worked to 1 decimal point, added together and THEN calculated to a whole playing handicap number.

Hope this makes sense.


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## rulefan (Apr 9, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			We have a Greensomes next week. 40% lower plus 60% higher course handicap. Are the individual resulting figures worked out to a whole number then added together or as before worked to 1 decimal point, added together and THEN calculated to a whole playing handicap number.

Hope this makes sense.
		
Click to expand...

CH for each player calculated to whole number.


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## Vikingman (Apr 11, 2021)

Just looked at my last 20 scores and I'm on my way to a big increase. The next figure to be replaced is far and away my best score and as it currently stands will be replaced by a score 12 shots worse.  To add to that, my next 3 scores contain two more of my top eight.  I am looking at a 4 shot increase unless I can get my act together over the next couple of weeks.


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## NearHull (Apr 11, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			We have a Greensomes next week. 40% lower plus 60% higher course handicap. Are the individual resulting figures worked out to a whole number then added together or as before worked to 1 decimal point, added together and THEN calculated to a whole playing handicap number.

Hope this makes sense.
		
Click to expand...

Isn’t it 40% of higher and 60% of lower?


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## jim8flog (Apr 11, 2021)

NearHull said:



			Isn’t it 40% of higher and 60% of lower?
		
Click to expand...

 Yes


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## 5OTT (Apr 11, 2021)

Just curious, in a singles comp we only get 95% of our hcp, is that the same elsewhere?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 11, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Just looked at my best 8 from last 20 scores and number 20 is included which will be deleted after Saturday which is a Stableford Comp..

My HI at present is 18.4 and number 20 has the following from EG App:- score 92, Course22, Slope133,Handicap Diff. 17.8, Course  Rating 71.1.

Can  one of you WHS experts tell me what Stableford points I need to keep the same or improve and would it be any different if a Medal. A breakdown of the calculation  would be appreciate.

Thanks
		
Click to expand...

Also it depends upon your ‘next best‘ of current 20. If there is another nearly as good as the one you are to lose then your HI might not go up sufficient to impact your CH regardless of what you score in your coming WHS qualifying round.


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## 2blue (Apr 11, 2021)

5OTT said:



			Just curious, in a singles comp we only get 95% of our hcp, is that the same elsewhere?
		
Click to expand...

Yes in Eng & maybe Wales. H/cap adjust is on the full CH though


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## Swango1980 (Apr 11, 2021)

5OTT said:



			Just curious, in a singles comp we only get 95% of our hcp, is that the same elsewhere?
		
Click to expand...

95% for singles strokeplay (medal and stableford), as per WHS manual, and mandatory in CONGU guidance irrelevant of field size


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## Swango1980 (Apr 11, 2021)

Having had 3 comps, and higher handicappers dominate them all (winning 2 board comps), our competition secretary is now considering having handicap limits in comps.

I have persuaded him not to do this, we need to see how this system pans out and settles down. But, would be interesting to see if WHS has any impact on the handicap of players that typically win comps, compared to pre WHS.


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## 2blue (Apr 11, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Having had 3 comps, and higher handicappers dominate them all (winning 2 board comps), our competition secretary is now considering having handicap limits in comps.

I have persuaded him not to do this, we need to see how this system pans out and settles down. But, would be interesting to see if WHS has any impact on the handicap of players that typically win comps, compared to pre WHS.
		
Click to expand...

We've gone to "Have to have played in 5 or more Club Comps" in last 12 months to win Board Comps. On the 1st year of it so don't know how successful it is.


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## upsidedown (Apr 11, 2021)

Used the Clubv1 /HDID app for signing in and hole by hole score entry. Numbers and prompts to use nice and large but prefer the EG one. Signed off with verbal agreement on scores and added to EG app instantly. Just waiting for HI increase overnight 😉


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## 2blue (Apr 11, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			Used the Clubv1 /HDID app for signing in and hole by hole score entry. Numbers and prompts to use nice and large but prefer the EG one. Signed off with verbal agreement on scores and added to EG app instantly. Just waiting for HI increase overnight 😉
		
Click to expand...

Can't understand why my EG App hasn't got that facility of adding scores entering Casual Rnds etc


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## upsidedown (Apr 11, 2021)

2blue said:



			Can't understand why my EG App hasn't got that facility of adding scores entering Casual Rnds etc
		
Click to expand...

If you do an update it should then but as it's only a beta tester they wont allow the score for handicapping which seems bonkers !!


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## IainP (Apr 11, 2021)

2blue said:



			Can't understand why my EG App hasn't got that facility of adding scores entering Casual Rnds etc
		
Click to expand...

What version do you have installed?
Mines 1.0.2


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## 2blue (Apr 11, 2021)

IainP said:



			What version do you have installed?
*Mines 1.0.2*

Click to expand...

Where'd you find that?


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## 2blue (Apr 11, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			If you do an update it should then but as it's only a beta tester they wont allow the score for handicapping which seems bonkers !!
		
Click to expand...

I've reinstalled today...   just the same


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## IainP (Apr 11, 2021)

2blue said:



			Where'd you find that?
		
Click to expand...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ad...he-app-version-for-installed-app-android/amp/

But when I look in the play store it tells me I am a beta tester (I downloaded the original early), so it will be this.


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## rulefan (Apr 11, 2021)

2blue said:



			Can't understand why my EG App hasn't got that facility of adding scores entering Casual Rnds etc
		
Click to expand...

Did you pre-register?


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## 2blue (Apr 11, 2021)

IainP said:



https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ad...he-app-version-for-installed-app-android/amp/

But when I look in the play store it tells me I am a beta tester (I downloaded the original early), so it will be this.
		
Click to expand...




rulefan said:



			Did you pre-register?
		
Click to expand...

Have found the Beta sign-up.....  thanks


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## kandrew (Apr 12, 2021)

It appears both the IOS and android apps have now been updated to allow you to enter your scores. What does this mean for the likes of howdidido where i have been entering my scores ?

Andrew


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## Lilyhawk (Apr 12, 2021)

kandrew said:



			It appears both the IOS and android apps have now been updated to allow you to enter your scores. What does this mean for the likes of howdidido where i have been entering my scores ?

Andrew
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, seem a bit pre-mature though to go live with it as the choice of "markers" are the tee's at the club? I may very well be missing something obvious here though. It has happened on occasion before.


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## rosecott (Apr 12, 2021)

kandrew said:



			It appears both the IOS and android apps have now been updated to allow you to enter your scores. What does this mean for the likes of howdidido where i have been entering my scores ?

Andrew
		
Click to expand...

Not sure what you mean by asking what are the implications for Howdidido? It just gives you another option.


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## matt71 (Apr 12, 2021)

Hi guys need some help please?

I am
Really confused regarding handicap adjustments on this new WHS system.

The start of the year was given an index score of 11.5 (13 handicap off our whites) I have played two rounds that were not great and my handicap has gone up a shot a time .

1st round 21 stable points 11.5- 12.1 index ( 14 handicap)

2nd around 29 points 12.1-12.8 handicap ( 15 handicap) 
at the end of last season my official handicap was 13.1 before all this WHS stuff come about .

Questioned this with my pro and he says that until 20 cards are submitted it will not balance itself out ! 

That does not make sense and as you can imagine I have not played for 4 months or so and going to be awhile before I even get close to my original handicap, at this rate I could be playing in the 20’s 

What are your thoughts on this please ? 
Cheers Matt


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## Steve Wilkes (Apr 12, 2021)

matt71 said:



			Hi guys need some help please?

I am
Really confused regarding handicap adjustments on this new WHS system.

The start of the year was given an index score of 11.5 (13 handicap off our whites) I have played two rounds that were not great and my handicap has gone up a shot a time .

1st round 21 stable points 11.5- 12.1 index ( 14 handicap)

2nd around 29 points 12.1-12.8 handicap ( 15 handicap)
at the end of last season my official handicap was 13.1 before all this WHS stuff come about .

Questioned this with my pro and he says that until 20 cards are submitted it will not balance itself out !

That does not make sense and as you can imagine I have not played for 4 months or so and going to be awhile before I even get close to my original handicap, at this rate I could be playing in the 20’s 

What are your thoughts on this please ?
Cheers Matt
		
Click to expand...

Was your official handicap of 13.1 based on 20 cards or more, if so you will hit the soft and hard cap before you get into the 20's


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## jim8flog (Apr 12, 2021)

matt71 said:



			Hi guys need some help please?

I am
Really confused regarding handicap adjustments on this new WHS system.

The start of the year was given an index score of 11.5 (13 handicap off our whites) I have played two rounds that were not great and my handicap has gone up a shot a time .

1st round 21 stable points 11.5- 12.1 index ( 14 handicap)

2nd around 29 points 12.1-12.8 handicap ( 15 handicap)
at the end of last season my official handicap was 13.1 before all this WHS stuff come about .

Questioned this with my pro and he says that until 20 cards are submitted it will not balance itself out !

That does not make sense and as you can imagine I have not played for 4 months or so and going to be awhile before I even get close to my original handicap, at this rate I could be playing in the 20’s 

What are your thoughts on this please ?
Cheers Matt
		
Click to expand...

  You need to have at least 15 scores on your handicap record to begin to have some sort of stability to you handicap

If you only have few expect your handicap to jump around all over the place.

 It works like this (left hand margin is the number of scores on your record)
3 Lowest 1 -2.0
4 Lowest 1 -1.0
5 Lowest 1 0
6 Average of lowest 2 -1.0
7 or 8 Average of lowest 2 
9 to 11 Average of lowest 3 
12 to 14 Average of lowest 4 
15 or 16 Average of lowest 5 
17 or 18 Average of lowest 6 
19 Average of lowest 7 
20 Average of lowest 8


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## matt71 (Apr 12, 2021)

Steve Wilkes said:



			Was your official handicap of 13.1 based on 20 cards or more, if so you will hit the soft and hard cap before you get into the 20's
		
Click to expand...

That was my handicap after season finished last October.
WHS comes in and gives us an index score of 11.5 which is 13 on our course.
could you please explain ( or share a link) to the soft and hard cap ?

Thanks for your help


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## Steve Wilkes (Apr 12, 2021)

matt71 said:



			That was my handicap after season finished last October.
WHS comes in and gives us an index score of 11.5 which is 13 on our course.
could you please explain ( or share a link) to the soft and hard cap ?

Thanks for your help
		
Click to expand...

It only comes into play once you have a Low Handicap Index, if you have not been given one (It should be on your Index record) then the soft cap and hard cap doesn't come into effect


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## nickjdavis (Apr 12, 2021)

Lilyhawk said:



			Yeah, seem a bit pre-mature though to go live with it as the choice of "markers" are the tee's at the club? I may very well be missing something obvious here though. It has happened on occasion before.

View attachment 36137

Click to expand...

Yeah...its the use of the term "marker" that is causing you an issue. In this instance "marker" is referring to the tee'ing area (white, yellow, red etc)....not the player you wish to mark your card. In the screenshot youve given you are in the process of choosing which set of tees you plan to play off. It's just an example of crap app design without anyone actually thinking it through before putting it into action.....why give something that we all know as a "teeing area" (or more commonly the tee) a new name that is already in regular use and means something totally different?


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## jim8flog (Apr 12, 2021)

matt71 said:



			That was my handicap after season finished last October.
WHS comes in and gives us an index score of 11.5 which is 13 on our course.
could you please explain ( or share a link) to the soft and hard cap ?

Thanks for your help
		
Click to expand...

  As per Steve Wilkes caps only come in when you have a Low Handicap Index and to get one you must have a full handicap record of 20 scores.

It would help if tell us how many scores you have on your record.

The reference is Rule 5 of The Rules of Handicapping which can be download but needs to be read with the Guidance on the Rules

https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/WHSDocs/WHS-Rules-of-Handicapping.pdf
https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/WHSDocs/Handicapping-Advice.pdf

There is also a short guide

https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/CONGU-Player-Ref-Guide.pdf


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## Lilyhawk (Apr 12, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Yeah...its the use of the term "marker" that is causing you an issue. In this instance "marker" is referring to the tee'ing area (white, yellow, red etc)....not the player you wish to mark your card. In the screenshot youve given you are in the process of choosing which set of tees you plan to play off. It's just an example of crap app design without anyone actually thinking it through before putting it into action.....why give something that we all know as a "teeing area" (or more commonly the tee) a new name that is already in regular use and means something totally different?
		
Click to expand...




nickjdavis said:



			Yeah...its the use of the term "marker" that is causing you an issue. In this instance "marker" is referring to the tee'ing area (white, yellow, red etc)....not the player you wish to mark your card. In the screenshot youve given you are in the process of choosing which set of tees you plan to play off. It's just an example of crap app design without anyone actually thinking it through before putting it into action.....why give something that we all know as a "teeing area" (or more commonly the tee) a new name that is already in regular use and means something totally different?
		
Click to expand...

That explains it. I figured that it was a bug where they had mixed the tee’s and the marker in their system. 

I wonder what they call your marker then instead?


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## Old Skier (Apr 12, 2021)

2blue said:



			I've reinstalled today...   just the same
		
Click to expand...

Is it Apple


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## Old Skier (Apr 12, 2021)

kandrew said:



			It appears both the IOS and android apps have now been updated to allow you to enter your scores. What does this mean for the likes of howdidido where i have been entering my scores ?

Andrew
		
Click to expand...

I think you might need to be careful here. Not certain but it might be that the EG app is more for casual rounds and if you use it instead on HDID for comps it won’t show up on V1.

HDID is also used for things like entering comps.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 12, 2021)

We had a newish 28 handicap member win our April medal with a net 55. 
How will this affect his H/C using WHS compared to the old system  ?


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## hairball_89 (Apr 12, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			We had a newish 28 handicap member win our April medal with a net 55.
How will this affect his H/C using WHS compared to the old system  ?
		
Click to expand...

It will (almost certainly) be 1 of his best 8 scores, presuming he has 20 in the book. What it does, depends entirely on what his next 7 are. My understanding of golfers is that while he will (almost certainly) get some form of cut, there will be a fairly vocal few who have decided the cut is wrong and he should have been cut to 8.


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## 2blue (Apr 12, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			We had a newish 28 handicap member win our April medal with a net 55.
How will this affect his H/C using WHS compared to the old system  ?
		
Click to expand...

We had the same happen. A new 24 H/capper wins with a Nett 57....  next time out is off 7.......   CONGU would have been saying that you can't do anything based on 1 card.


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## rulefan (Apr 12, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			We had a newish 28 handicap member win our April medal with a net 55.
How will this affect his H/C using WHS compared to the old system  ?
		
Click to expand...

Impossible to say without seeing his last 20 playing records. The effect could be very different the fewer scores he has.
The WHS doesn't have the same fixed reduction process as CONGU.


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## HampshireHog (Apr 12, 2021)

hairball_89 said:



			It will (almost certainly) be 1 of his best 8 scores, presuming he has 20 in the book. What it does, depends entirely on what his next 7 are. My understanding of golfers is that while he will (almost certainly) get some form of cut, there will be a fairly vocal few who have decided the cut is wrong and he should have been cut to 8.
		
Click to expand...

There will be an ESR to consider as well which reduces all his differentials by 2.


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## rulefan (Apr 12, 2021)

2blue said:



			CONGU would have been saying that you can't do anything based on 1 card.
		
Click to expand...

Huh???


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## 2blue (Apr 12, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Is it Apple
		
Click to expand...

No Android


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## 2blue (Apr 12, 2021)

2blue said:
CONGU would have been saying that you can't do anything based on 1 card.



rulefan said:



			Huh???
		
Click to expand...

Yeah we had that happen many times


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## rulefan (Apr 12, 2021)

2blue said:



2blue said:
CONGU would have been saying that you can't do anything based on 1 card.


Yeah we had that happen many times
		
Click to expand...

How could a net 57 not cause a 0.4 reduction for every shot under CSS?


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## williamalex1 (Apr 12, 2021)

rulefan said:



			How could a net 57 not cause a 0.4 reduction for every shot under CSS?
		
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 When it would've taken them into a lower category, then it would've been 0.3, in the good old days gone by


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## rosecott (Apr 12, 2021)

2blue said:



			We had the same happen. A new 24 H/capper wins with a Nett 57....  next time out is off 7.......   CONGU would have been saying that you can't do anything based on 1 card.
		
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Dave, I would be asking some very probing questions - though you probably have - to your man and to Billy's man as well.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 12, 2021)

rosecott said:



			Dave, I would be asking some very probing questions - though you probably have - to your man and to Billy's man as well.
		
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I'll keep you updated , my main man 

I just checked, he's now a 14 handicap/ .
But 55 is a number that just keeps cropping up


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## 2blue (Apr 13, 2021)

rulefan said:



			How could a net 57 not cause a 0.4 reduction for every shot under CSS?
		
Click to expand...

Oh yes, he'd get that but nothing more, based on one card under CONGU.
Jim, he submitted 3 cards for H/cap of 24 last Oct but only was able to play in one Comp that gave him a 0.1 no other evidence.


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## Crazyface (Apr 13, 2021)

So we can now add scores using the EG app but they don't count for WHS purposes?


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## rulefan (Apr 13, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			So we can now add scores using the EG app but they don't count for WHS purposes?
		
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Why do you say that? Are you referring to casual rounds?


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## Old Skier (Apr 13, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			So we can now add scores using the EG app but they don't count for WHS purposes?
		
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Have you tried, is that a fact.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 13, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			I'll keep you updated , my main man 

I just checked, he's now a 14 handicap/ .
But 55 is a number that just keeps cropping up 

Click to expand...

In which case Billy you need to stop drinking that Britvic orange 😻


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## Swango1980 (Apr 13, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Have you tried, is that a fact.
		
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On Club V1, as handicap sec, I can see who has registered and submitted a General Play Round. Any ideas if the same will be true if players enter scores on MyEG instead  albeit I know it is early days.

Now that players can enter scores at will, makes me a bit nervous how many of these scores may need to be subsequently deleted after it has already altered their handicap. Some who pre register a minute before score entry, or issues with physical scorecards (or lack of). I had 2 cards I found yesterday yesterday, with player name and their scores. No marker, no date, no tees marked, no signature. Another card submitted, player name was simply "Mick". Another player who had submitted scores for himself electronically. But, when I saw card, the scores matched his marker scores. He was Player A on the card and actually went round in 15 shots lower.

I think it is going to be impossible to keep on top of this, especially as more and more players submit scores. Might be easier at clubs with permanent staff who can maybe do daily checks. Covid makes things harder with various scorecard restrictions, and asking players to send photos of card. Some do, some don't. Those that do may well forget to submit physical cards, so I know it will become next to impossible to go back check 100% of the time if need be.


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## sweaty sock (Apr 13, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			On Club V1, as handicap sec, I can see who has registered and submitted a General Play Round. Any ideas if the same will be true if players enter scores on MyEG instead  albeit I know it is early days.

Now that players can enter scores at will, makes me a bit nervous how many of these scores may need to be subsequently deleted after it has already altered their handicap. Some who pre register a minute before score entry, or issues with physical scorecards (or lack of). I had 2 cards I found yesterday yesterday, with player name and their scores. No marker, no date, no tees marked, no signature. Another card submitted, player name was simply "Mick". Another player who had submitted scores for himself electronically. But, when I saw card, the scores matched his marker scores. He was Player A on the card and actually went round in 15 shots lower.

I think it is going to be impossible to keep on top of this, especially as more and more players submit scores. Might be easier at clubs with permanent staff who can maybe do daily checks. Covid makes things harder with various scorecard restrictions, and asking players to send photos of card. Some do, some don't. Those that do may well forget to submit physical cards, so I know it will become next to impossible to go back check 100% of the time if need be.
		
Click to expand...

I think this is what we all saw coming, its going to need alot more policing than was advertised.  Youve got my respect for at least trying!!  Many wont!


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## jim8flog (Apr 13, 2021)

williamalex1 said:



			We had a newish 28 handicap member win our April medal with a net 55.
How will this affect his H/C using WHS compared to the old system  ?
		
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This sort of question is like

"how long is a piece of string?"

Without knowing his handicap record it is impossible to say.


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## nickjdavis (Apr 13, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			On Club V1, as handicap sec, I can see who has registered and submitted a General Play Round. Any ideas if the same will be true if players enter scores on MyEG instead  albeit I know it is early days.

Now that players can enter scores at will, makes me a bit nervous how many of these scores may need to be subsequently deleted after it has already altered their handicap. Some who pre register a minute before score entry, or issues with physical scorecards (or lack of). I had 2 cards I found yesterday yesterday, with player name and their scores. No marker, no date, no tees marked, no signature. Another card submitted, player name was simply "Mick". Another player who had submitted scores for himself electronically. But, when I saw card, the scores matched his marker scores. He was Player A on the card and actually went round in 15 shots lower.

I think it is going to be impossible to keep on top of this, especially as more and more players submit scores. Might be easier at clubs with permanent staff who can maybe do daily checks. Covid makes things harder with various scorecard restrictions, and asking players to send photos of card. Some do, some don't. Those that do may well forget to submit physical cards, so I know it will become next to impossible to go back check 100% of the time if need be.
		
Click to expand...

Within HandicapMaster you can see reports of who has submitted general play rounds, within the DotGolf system you can also see reports of which players currently have "unfulfilled intents" to submit a score...i.e. they've registered but not entered a score yet. Would be surprised if Club V1 doesn't offer the same facility.

Why would scores need to be deleted?

The EG app (and other ISV based apps that I am aware of) does not let you enter a score immediately after pre-registration (you can enter the scores on a hole by hole basis....but you cannot submit the scores for at least a couple of hours).

Other than that...your fears are well founded...its something that our handicap sec (and myself) have been banging on about for months now. It seem like the higher golfing authorities are prepared to accept a little less "integrity in the system itself" for the perceived benefit that giving players the flexibility to submit scores, as and when they want, from outside competitions, will attract more players to the game.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 13, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Within HandicapMaster you can see reports of who has submitted general play rounds, within the DotGolf system you can alos see reports of which players currently have "unfulfilled intents" to submit a score...i.e. they've registered but not entered a score yet. Would be surprised if Club V1 dont offer the same facility.

Why would scores need to be deleted?

The EG app (and other ISV based apps that I am aware of) does not let you enter a score immediately after pre-registration (you can enter the scores on a hole by hole basis....but you cannot submit the scores for at least a couple of hours).

Other than that...your fears are well founded...its something that our handicap sec (and myself) have been banging on about for months now. It seem like the higher golfing authorities are prepared to accept a little less "integrity in the system itself" for the perceived benefit that giving players the flexibility to submit scores, as and when they want, from outside competitions, will attract more players to the game.
		
Click to expand...

Club V1 (howdidido) allows players to enter a score immediately after registration. So, I think I have had 3 players now who have entered a score a minute after registration. Surprise surprise, all 3 were good scores. I had to delete them, although one player had already played off the lower handicap in a competition before this was identified (albeit, I know that negatively impacts him on this occasion).

But, it is deleting or editing scores for the other reasons that I've mentioned, and I am sure I will come across many more issues with entered scores in the future. It may come to a point, where we just need to let everything go, and only act of other players make a complaint. Or, at least find easy ways of identifying suspicious patterns. Pre WHS and pre Covid it was so much easier, because at least every score had to be verified by someone on Committee before being loaded into their record. I miss those days.

I think I'd be happier if, when a player entered their score on the day, the next day WHS told them what their handicap will be if their score(s) are verified, and what it would be if not. They then must play off the lower handicap. Once the handicap sec verifies scores, then WHS tells them what their Index finally is.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 13, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			This sort of question is like

"how long is a piece of string?"

Without knowing his handicap record it is impossible to say.
		
Click to expand...

Updated in post 2709, he's now a 14 h/c.


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## nickjdavis (Apr 13, 2021)

Regarding the last comment....if you enter a score on the DotGolf website it actually tells you what the change to a players index is going to be....I understand that players don't have access to the DotGolf site but its certainly an indication that what you propose is feasible.


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## nickjdavis (Apr 13, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Why do you say that? Are you referring to casual rounds?
		
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Because in the Android store, when you look at the notes relating to the release version it says...

"PLEASE NOTE: Since this is a pre-release version, scores submitted thru the app are not eligible for handicapping"


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## rulefan (Apr 13, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Because in the Android store, when you look at the notes relating to the release version it says...

"PLEASE NOTE: Since this is a pre-release version, scores submitted thru the app are not eligible for handicapping"
		
Click to expand...

Fair enough


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## Old Skier (Apr 13, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			On Club V1, as handicap sec, I can see who has registered and submitted a General Play Round. Any ideas if the same will be true if players enter scores on MyEG instead  albeit I know it is early days.

Now that players can enter scores at will, makes me a bit nervous how many of these scores may need to be subsequently deleted after it has already altered their handicap. Some who pre register a minute before score entry, or issues with physical scorecards (or lack of). I had 2 cards I found yesterday yesterday, with player name and their scores. No marker, no date, no tees marked, no signature. Another card submitted, player name was simply "Mick". Another player who had submitted scores for himself electronically. But, when I saw card, the scores matched his marker scores. He was Player A on the card and actually went round in 15 shots lower.

I think it is going to be impossible to keep on top of this, especially as more and more players submit scores. Might be easier at clubs with permanent staff who can maybe do daily checks. Covid makes things harder with various scorecard restrictions, and asking players to send photos of card. Some do, some don't. Those that do may well forget to submit physical cards, so I know it will become next to impossible to go back check 100% of the time if need be.
		
Click to expand...

I think (but not sure) that the only way to check Casual Rounds submitted direct via the EG App will be on the DB and it shows there doubt it will go to V1 but interested to know if anyone finds different.  I cant even get on it today as it keeps coming up with a bad gateway error.

We have good control of cards done at with a sign in book, if I check the book and the rounds haven't been pre registered they get deleted. Those playing away must also inform our reception who will add them to the book, obviously there will be a problem here if it is necessary to check the whole clubs records.


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## Old Skier (Apr 13, 2021)

Anyone know how I can change a member on the WHS DB that has Home Club not set in the Record even though his club is showing correct.


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## Old Skier (Apr 13, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Club V1 (howdidido) allows players to enter a score immediately after registration. So, I think I have had 3 players now who have entered a score a minute after registration. Surprise surprise, all 3 were good scores. I had to delete them, although one player had already played off the lower handicap in a competition before this was identified (albeit, I know that negatively impacts him on this occasion).

But, it is deleting or editing scores for the other reasons that I've mentioned, and I am sure I will come across many more issues with entered scores in the future. It may come to a point, where we just need to let everything go, and only act of other players make a complaint. Or, at least find easy ways of identifying suspicious patterns. Pre WHS and pre Covid it was so much easier, because at least every score had to be verified by someone on Committee before being loaded into their record. I miss those days.

I think I'd be happier if, when a player entered their score on the day, the next day WHS told them what their handicap will be if their score(s) are verified, and what it would be if not. They then must play off the lower handicap. Once the handicap sec verifies scores, then WHS tells them what their Index finally is.
		
Click to expand...

I have just noticed that there is a scores listed by day report on the WHS DB


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## Swango1980 (Apr 13, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Anyone know how I can change a member on the WHS DB that has Home Club not set in the Record even though his club is showing correct.
		
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Do you mean add the player to your club?

Not sure if this is relevant to you, but I had several guys join from another club. I was able to find them on WHS, but it gave me no options to add them to my club. Instead, after taking a note of their CDH, I had to go to Members - Add New Member and then search for that CDH. I was then able to add that player as a member.

Each time, I also had to add their e-mail address and DOB. I wonder if this is the reason I couldn't simply add them when I found them through the initial search, because I have been able to add other players through the initial search before.


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## upsidedown (Apr 13, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			Because in the Android store, when you look at the notes relating to the release version it says...

"PLEASE NOTE: Since this is a pre-release version, scores submitted thru the app are not eligible for handicapping"
		
Click to expand...

There's an update  now and the bit about not counting for handicapping has gone 😉


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 13, 2021)

It seems that the ISVs are having big issues connecting to Dotgolf which is affecting uploads 

Been going on for a couple days now 

Can sense that IG not very happy and it seems it’s down to Dotgolf not being able to handle the traffic since we returned


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## Swango1980 (Apr 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			It seems that the ISVs are having big issues connecting to Dotgolf which is affecting uploads

Been going on for a couple days now

Can sense that IG not very happy and it seems it’s down to Dotgolf not being able to handle the traffic since we returned
		
Click to expand...

Surely not. We were told the tech would make everything straightforward. And not taken seriously when we asked "what if there are ever issues with the tech?"

Personally though, I seem to have been able to process a new members 3 cards for handicap yesterday, and didn't notice any issues the couple of times I logged into Portal today. Maybe just lucky though, and we've had no comps today


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## pauljames87 (Apr 13, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			There's an update  now and the bit about not counting for handicapping has gone 😉
		
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My mate txt me this. I didn't notice. We are playing a society day Thursday (he runs it) he's paired us together and we going to sign each others cards and do via the app aswell to see if it works


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 13, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Surely not. We were told the tech would make everything straightforward. And not taken seriously when we asked "what if there are ever issues with the tech?"

Personally though, I seem to have been able to process a new members 3 cards for handicap yesterday, and didn't notice any issues the couple of times I logged into Portal today. Maybe just lucky though, and we've had no comps today
		
Click to expand...

They were very lucky that lockdown happened when it was implemented because it was a mess for many reasons - they have had a lot of time over the last 4 months to ensure it all works and it’s failing. We have multiple cards not being uploaded.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 13, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They were very lucky that lockdown happened when it was implemented because it was a mess for many reasons - they have had a lot of time over the last 4 months to ensure it all works and it’s failing. We have multiple cards not being uploaded.
		
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I noticed a few were not being sent from Club V1 to WHS. From memory, I think I went to WHS and saw the player didnt have an email address. I entered it, then I went back to Club V1 and hit resend to CDH, and it seemed to work.

However, that just may have been a fluke, and I still have no confidence in what is going on. I'm basically going to wait until members come to me and express issues they are having with their handicaps, so I can see if there is an issue or not. Because I doubt I'll be able to spot everything, or even most things that may go wrong immediately


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## Wabinez (Apr 14, 2021)

Used the EG app yesterday to log a score whilst playing ‘away’

Pretty easy process. only issue i experienced was the app randomly signed me out completely at one stage. All 3 of my playing partners also had the same issue at pretty much the same point - so have emailed EG to let them know in case of a bug etc.

on the whole though - impressed


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## MrGrumtastic (Apr 14, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			There's an update  now and the bit about not counting for handicapping has gone 😉
		
Click to expand...

I've lost the thread a bit now! Have you (or anyone else) managed to get scores submitted through the EG app to count towards your HI then?

I have an away round tomorrow and it would be good if I could use this method to put a score in, rather than the usual IG at home.


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## Wabinez (Apr 14, 2021)

MrGrumtastic said:



			I've lost the thread a bit now! Have you (or anyone else) managed to get scores submitted through the EG app to count towards your HI then?

I have an away round tomorrow and it would be good if I could use this method to put a score in, rather than the usual IG at home.
		
Click to expand...

yes. Did it yesterday. Its on my handicap record, but wasn’t good enough to be one of my 8 scorers. Probably never will be one of my 8 best scorers...but it is there!


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## Old Skier (Apr 14, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			They were very lucky that lockdown happened when it was implemented because it was a mess for many reasons - they have had a lot of time over the last 4 months to ensure it all works and it’s failing. We have multiple cards not being uploaded.
		
Click to expand...

Major issues yesterday which I can only assume was increased traffic with “Gateway“ Errors.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Major issues yesterday which I can only assume was increased traffic with “Gateway“ Errors.
		
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When a comp results are posted are the cards sent to whs next day? Or that day


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## wjemather (Apr 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			When a comp results are posted are the cards sent to whs next day? Or that day
		
Click to expand...

Scores are sent to WHS as soon as they are entered, ready for index recalculation overnight. Competition results are entirely separate.


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## rosecott (Apr 14, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			When a comp results are posted are the cards sent to whs next day? Or that day
		
Click to expand...

WHS requires scores to be transferred on the day of play but that may be difficult if the person responsible is a volunteer and has a large number of cards involved. Using Handicapmaster software, scores are going to WHS very shortly after submission by the player but I think their application is not confirmed until the competition is finalised, which may not be on the day.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Scores are sent to WHS as soon as they are entered, ready for index recalculation overnight. Competition results are entirely separate.
		
Click to expand...

Scores were posted this morning so hopefully see the cut after midnight


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2021)

rosecott said:



			WHS requires scores to be transferred on the day of play but that may be difficult if the person responsible is a volunteer and has a large number of cards involved. Using Handicapmaster software, scores are going to WHS very shortly after submission by the player but I think their application is not confirmed until the competition is finalised, which may not be on the day.
		
Click to expand...

Comp was last night, cards came out 08:05 today so I suspect they have done it this morning


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## nickjdavis (Apr 14, 2021)

rosecott said:



			WHS requires scores to be transferred on the day of play but that may be difficult if the person responsible is a volunteer and has a large number of cards involved. Using Handicapmaster software, scores are going to WHS very shortly after submission by the player but I think their application is not confirmed until the competition is finalised, which may not be on the day.
		
Click to expand...

Application of scores to a players handicap record is (or should be) entirely independent from the competition processing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 14, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Major issues yesterday which I can only assume was increased traffic with “Gateway“ Errors.
		
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Dotgolf cannot handle the level of traffic from the multiple ISV’s along with the EG app as well 

It was mentioned multiple times in earlier meetings that they need to make sure the servers can handle the load - CDH was able to handle uploads - Dotgolf currently clearly can’t. It’s not like they haven’t had a good 12 months to sort it


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## rulefan (Apr 14, 2021)

rosecott said:



			Using Handicapmaster software, scores are going to WHS very shortly after submission by the player but I think their application is not confirmed until the competition is finalised, which may not be on the day.
		
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Are you sure? I understood that the ISVs only uploaded at the end of the day and were processed by dot.golf overnight.


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## wjemather (Apr 14, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Are you sure? I understood that the ISVs only uploaded at the end of the day and were processed by dot.golf overnight.
		
Click to expand...

ClubV1 sends scores as soon as they are entered. Updated handicap details are downloaded from WHS sometime after 4am each day.


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## jim8flog (Apr 14, 2021)

rosecott said:



			WHS requires scores to be transferred on the day of play but that may be difficult if the person responsible is a volunteer and has a large number of cards involved. Using Handicapmaster software, scores are going to WHS very shortly after submission by the player but I think their application is not confirmed until the competition is finalised, which may not be on the day.
		
Click to expand...

 Not with PSI input and IG. My score Last Saturday medal was on my handicap record on Sunday and the comp was not finalised until Monday.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Not with PSI input and IG. My score Last Saturday medal was on my handicap record on Sunday and the comp was not finalised until Monday.
		
Click to expand...

We don't get to use the app for the comp unfortunately

Scores were posted today I'm hoping go on tomorrow for My round 

But then if they don't I suspect it all catches it up when that one goes in it works out no it should be x y and z


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## Imurg (Apr 14, 2021)

We seem to have a bug in our system where, when entering scores either via the HDIDO app or the PSI terminal, it can't seem to cope with more than a shot a hole.
Both Fragger and CVG ( a right pair of hackers) had issues entering scores where they were only given 1 shot by the system rather than 2 - this happened quite a lot with Fragger's card..
Apparently the correct scores are going through but not being shown...Top Men are working on it..Top Men.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 14, 2021)

Impressed

08:05 comp results posted (cards put in same kinda time)

22:00 whs app updates to reflect app and new index 

Ig app not updated yet but will in morning 

EG app shows tho so could do scores on that tomorrow 

Wonder if I should use that at my home course rather than My course app it seems better


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## Crazyface (Apr 15, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Have you tried, is that a fact.
		
Click to expand...

Sorry, I really should keep tabs on posts, I noticed that the EG app allows scores to be entered and was asking if they were to count for HC purposes.


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## Crazyface (Apr 15, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			Sorry, I really should keep tabs on posts, I noticed that the EG app allows scores to be entered and was asking if they were to count for HC purposes.
		
Click to expand...

I'll be using the EG app today to enter my scores. I'll see if it updates.


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## jim8flog (Apr 15, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			Sorry, I really should keep tabs on posts, I noticed that the EG app allows scores to be entered and was asking if they were to count for HC purposes.
		
Click to expand...

 If you preregister then yes .

Not using the app myself because we have IG and it is good enough for me and I only play in Opens away.


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## Old Skier (Apr 15, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			I'll be using the EG app today to enter my scores. I'll see if it updates.
		
Click to expand...

Only use it for casual rounds not for club comps where you need to use the ISV app.


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## 2blue (Apr 15, 2021)

Can anyone explain why an option for a none-Q is given? Why would anyone bother registering for a None-Q?


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## Old Skier (Apr 15, 2021)

I have a player who has a CDH no and is entered on my ISV but wasn't on the WHS DB.

I found him on the DB and added him there and did a merge but still it won't sync, anyone have any ideas.


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## Old Skier (Apr 15, 2021)

2blue said:



			Can anyone explain why an option for a none-Q is given? Why would anyone bother registering for a None-Q?
		
Click to expand...

I can only assume for those who want to show a full record on the ISV but it does seem pointless.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 15, 2021)

2blue said:



			Can anyone explain why an option for a none-Q is given? Why would anyone bother registering for a None-Q?
		
Click to expand...

I agree with you. I think the Club V1 / HDID guys have a pretty messy system. They use the term "Casual Round" when General Play would have been better. They use qualifying and non-qualifying, even though these terms are no longer defined in the WHS handicapping system (they were in the old CONGU system).

But, the biggest issue I have found is that, many golfers are completely unaware of official terminology, and that will always be the case. When one such golfer has to select "qualifying" or "non-qualifying" many of them, especially new golfers, select non-qualifying. They make a logical decision that qualifying must have something to do with competitions, and so they do not select that option. Furthermore, at our club we used to tell golfers qualifying competitions counted towards the summer order of merit, so it wouldn't surprise me if some experienced golfers thing qualifying has something to do with the order of merit. I have seen that quite a few golfers have entered scores so far at my club, and selected "non-qualifying", so their handicap record does not get touched.

I wish HDID would have at least given the options "Acceptable for Handicap" or "Not for Handicap Purposes", or something that made it obvious to most golfers who will use the system. But, I am not sure why the "non-qualifying" option really exists anyway.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 15, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I have a player who has a CDH no and is entered on my ISV but wasn't on the WHS DB.

I found him on the DB and added him there and did a merge but still it won't sync, anyone have any ideas.
		
Click to expand...

I experienced a similar issue last week (having added about 20 new members from another club). Some players synced, a few did not. The following day, I still could not get some of them to sync. I did e-mail Club V1 support, but never got an answer. However, not long after this they did sync, so not sure if that was co-incidence or not. I think I also had to add an e-mail address / DOB on WHS at one point, that may have resolved the issue. However, I have done so many in the last couple of weeks, I'm not sure if that would be the solution in your case or not.


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## 2blue (Apr 15, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I agree with you. I think the Club V1 / HDID guys have a pretty messy system. They use the term "Casual Round" when General Play would have been better. They use qualifying and non-qualifying, even though these terms are no longer defined in the WHS handicapping system (they were in the old CONGU system).

But, the biggest issue I have found is that, many golfers are completely unaware of official terminology, and that will always be the case. When one such golfer has to select "qualifying" or "non-qualifying" many of them, especially new golfers, select non-qualifying. They make a logical decision that qualifying must have something to do with competitions, and so they do not select that option. Furthermore, at our club we used to tell golfers qualifying competitions counted towards the summer order of merit, so it wouldn't surprise me if some experienced golfers thing qualifying has something to do with the order of merit. I have seen that quite a few golfers have entered scores so far at my club, and selected "non-qualifying", so their handicap record does not get touched.

I wish HDID would have at least given the options "Acceptable for Handicap" or "Not for Handicap Purposes", or something that made it obvious to most golfers who will use the system. But, I am not sure why the "non-qualifying" option really exists anyway.
		
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Yes we're having the same happen.....  players & us getting very frustrated. Not to mention the 30days before the casual rounds get deleted... dooh....  makes monitoring them rather more awkward as we're getting 5 or 10 a day. Has been mentioned to V1 guys


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## Swango1980 (Apr 15, 2021)

2blue said:



			Yes we're having the same happen.....  players & us getting very frustrated. Not to mention the 30days before the casual rounds get deleted... dooh....  makes monitoring them rather more awkward as we're getting 5 or 10 a day. Has been mentioned to V1 guys
		
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Yeah, the entered rounds is getting difficultish to monitor. It also inlcudes rounds I have manually entered as handicap secretary, when members have only handed in physical cards (or sent photo), or cards for initial handicap. This shows as having both a Sign in time and Score Entry time as 01:00, no matter what time I entered them. However, the fact they are mixed up with scores that were directly entered by golfers makes it harder to go through


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## pauljames87 (Apr 15, 2021)

So impressed by whs 

Myself and my friend played a course

Signed each others score after 

Straight onto my index!


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 15, 2021)

IG are having a zoom call about the EG app being able to bypass the club

Have to agree I don’t think it’s right that scores can go straight onto someone’s handicap record without going via the clubs handicap sec.

Can envisage big issues ahead and I’m sure during the initial calls with EG and ISV the scores where going to be sent to the club to first verify them and then send to Dotgolf - by going straight there opens up the whole system to abuse


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			So impressed by whs

Myself and my friend played a course

Signed each others score after

Straight onto my index!
		
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Did you do this via the EG app? I have not taken a huge amount of notice of all this simply because I have not played with a card in my hand since November but this post caught my interest.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 15, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			IG are having a zoom call about the EG app being able to bypass the club

Have to agree I don’t think it’s right that scores can go straight onto someone’s handicap record without going via the clubs handicap sec.

Can envisage big issues ahead and I’m sure during the initial calls with EG and ISV the scores where going to be sent to the club to first verify them and then send to Dotgolf - by going straight there opens up the whole system to abuse
		
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This already happens in the Club V1 ISV

Players enter scores via howdidido, and it updated their Index the next day, without anybody ever having to check that score. I imagine the EG App just does the same thing.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 15, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			This already happens in the Club V1 ISV

Players enter scores via howdidido, and it updated their Index the next day, without anybody ever having to check that score. I imagine the EG App just does the same thing.
		
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Haven’t used HDID for years since we migrated to IG - it used to be just the front end display that Club Systems use to display results , enter comps etc 

Has that changed ? Thought Clubsystems V1 had the app in the same way as IG and scores entered via that and then displayed to be “authorised” by the handicap/comp sec etc


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## Swango1980 (Apr 15, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Haven’t used HDID for years since we migrated to IG - it used to be just the front end display that Club Systems use to display results , enter comps etc

Has that changed ? Thought Clubsystems V1 had the app in the same way as IG and scores entered via that and then displayed to be “authorised” by the handicap/comp sec etc
		
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HDID looks very similar to what it has looked like for years to the user, but they added a Today's Golf icon / menu, that allows players to sign in to comps or general play rounds, and submit scores after. The scores are sent straight to WHS, and handicap updated accordingly. There is no feature to hold them off, and wait to be authorised by anyone. A player could lie in his bed, never go near the club or submit a card, enter a score, and get his handicap updated. He'd probably get away with it as well. I'm not at club every day checking for cards, and with Covid I will not be surprised if many many cards do not get submitted. I cannot see me having the time to chase / harass members constantly if I cannot find a card. Many of the cards that are submitted are abysmal, with a lot of information missing.

Before WHS, a player could enter their score but it would not touch their handicap until authorised by Committee. That was fine, there was no urgency to have the score in the system before midnight on the day played.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 15, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Did you do this via the EG app? I have not taken a huge amount of notice of all this simply because I have not played with a card in my hand since November but this post caught my interest.
		
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Yes I have. It's brilliant. Worked seemlessly and updated in seconds


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## pauljames87 (Apr 15, 2021)

@Lord Tyrion I'd go as far to say I'd use it all time over IG

Gives me my index. Course handicap and can sign cards even at home course


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## Canfordhacker (Apr 15, 2021)

Two of us used the England Golf App for our round yesterday to test it out. Below is the summary I sent to our group to help enlighten them. I am very impressed. EG Instagram account also saying there are GPS elements to the app such that you have to be close to the course for which you are registering a round.


we used the “enter score” option in the middle at the bottom, before we teed off 9note you may have to update the app as this is a recent addition)
create a scorecard- this asks you to select the club and tees (which means you can use it if you play away)
Get a message at this point that if you confirm you will be expected to submit scores.
app tells you your course handicap. 
me and Andy also added each other so we were essentially marking each others cards. 
We then left the app alone til after the round. 
When we got back to the clubhouse, over a pint, we agreed the scores as we usually would
Smiley (our third playing partner) then created a round on the app just for him. He was told he couldn’t submit it for two hours (which is the pre-register intent element we have been discussing)
Andy and I both entered our gross scores (for both of us) pretty much like you would on the screen in the clubhouse.
Hit the submit button
App asks you to physically sign the card on screen with your finger.
App asks who is verifying the card. Given we had played together, it asked me if Andy was verifying my card. I said yes. 
Andy then got a message on the app to ask him to verify my score. 
Also received an email from the club Email address (ie not England golf) notifying that there is a score to be verified
Go to the app and verify the score
Andy holed out for an 8 on the 14th. We entered that score, and the final submission showed as 8 (7) to indicate a net double bogey had been calculated. It knocked a shot off his gross to reflect that too. Neat.
Score is currently sitting there waiting for the overnight run that will add the playing condition calculation and calculate the differential and hence new handicap index. 
Smiley only entered his own score - it still asked him for a verifier. He picked me off his friend list and I followed the same process 2 hours later when the notification came through.
This morning HI updated accordingly, following PCC (which was 0 in this case)


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 15, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			HDID looks very similar to what it has looked like for years to the user, but they added a Today's Golf icon / menu, that allows players to sign in to comps or general play rounds, and submit scores after. The scores are sent straight to WHS, and handicap updated accordingly. There is no feature to hold them off, and wait to be authorised by anyone. A player could lie in his bed, never go near the club or submit a card, enter a score, and get his handicap updated. He'd probably get away with it as well. I'm not at club every day checking for cards, and with Covid I will not be surprised if many many cards do not get submitted. I cannot see me having the time to chase / harass members constantly if I cannot find a card. Many of the cards that are submitted are abysmal, with a lot of information missing.

Before WHS, a player could enter their score but it would not touch their handicap until authorised by Committee. That was fine, there was no urgency to have the score in the system before midnight on the day played.
		
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Seems like a huge opening to cheats charter - who is verifying that the scores are genuine , it won’t take much for people to manufacture scores. 

As you have I have also seen some of the scorecards and the amount of mistakes - where is the validation of the away scores or even scores at your own course. Why would people use the EG app instead of the IG app ? Maybe to bypass the home HC sec  .


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## Swango1980 (Apr 15, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Seems like a huge opening to cheats charter - who is verifying that the scores are genuine , it won’t take much for people to manufacture scores.

As you have I have also seen some of the scorecards and the amount of mistakes - where is the validation of the away scores or even scores at your own course. Why would people use the EG app instead of the IG app ? Maybe to bypass the home HC sec  .
		
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If a player was that way inclined, yes the new system will be heaven for them. Some clubs may be able to keep on top of it, with full time staff or a pro who checks and verifies scores every day. Not our club, impossible to do that. Pre WHS, it was so much easier, as I could just schedule once or twice a week to go to club, check for scorecards, and only verify scores that were correct.

As I said on an earlier thread, one guy entered his score, which went directly to handicap. About a week or so later, I found his physical scorecard and noticed he had entered his markers score, not his own. His own score was 15 shots lower than what he entered.

But, I think this was always my biggest fear as a handicap secretary, player's being able to submit scores at will. I originally thought the administration of it, filing scorecards and so on, would be impossible. However, I will admit, I have given up on that. No longer do I file scorecards, especially due to the complications of Covid. I have about 100/200 scorecards lying around my house as I've taken them home to process, and probably even more e-mails with pictures of scorecards sent. We've had nearly 200 new members join in the last year, so I absolutely do not have the time to file all these cards when it is safe to do so, nor do I have time to work out if there are any missing cards. I certainly do not have the resources at home to run the full admin of it all, I basically have access a computer and the internet, so I can at least enter scores for players and e-mail them their handicaps.

It seems as if, to do a sound job as a handicap secretary now, it is pretty much a full time job, and you need to be at the club with a decent office set up, so that you have room for filing, computer and printing access. Ideally you check scores before midnight, every single night. And, you have time to phone / contact members when there are issues. I've not even had to deal with members submitting scores from Away courses, but I suppose that will start happening soon now that the MyEG App has been updated.

Carnage. I think it will end up just being a case that you purely trust every single score that is submitted, and only investigate of other members complain about a particular player.


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## GGTTH (Apr 15, 2021)

First card in yesterday. I am registered and showing on the members list of the ClubV1 app, and I have also a registered HowDidIDo account (ClubV1 and HDID passport), however when I log onto HDID it asks me to search for my club and when I find it, it says I'm not in the clubs list. Do I need to have submitted my 3 cards before I'll be on their list? Or is it simply a case of the club haven't got round to adding me yet?

And once I've submitted my 3 cards, what happens? Do I get an e-mail or something stating my handicap? How long does this usually take or is it dependent on the club itself?

Sorry for the probably stupid questions, as someone completely new to handicapping I'm sure i'll have alot more over time.


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## Springveldt (Apr 15, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			HDID looks very similar to what it has looked like for years to the user, but they added a Today's Golf icon / menu, that allows players to sign in to comps or general play rounds, and submit scores after. The scores are sent straight to WHS, and handicap updated accordingly. There is no feature to hold them off, and wait to be authorised by anyone. A player could lie in his bed, never go near the club or submit a card, enter a score, and get his handicap updated. He'd probably get away with it as well. I'm not at club every day checking for cards, and with Covid I will not be surprised if many many cards do not get submitted. I cannot see me having the time to chase / harass members constantly if I cannot find a card. Many of the cards that are submitted are abysmal, with a lot of information missing.

Before WHS, a player could enter their score but it would not touch their handicap until authorised by Committee. That was fine, there was no urgency to have the score in the system before midnight on the day played.
		
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There should be some traceability within the HDID app though as you have to put in the name of the person who marked your card and you also still sign for it. Whether they are actually holding that data I don't know as I haven't found anywhere on the front end to display the marker for each of my scores.

I played in my first qualifying round yesterday, put the score in at around 8pm in the HDID app,  could see the score in the England golf app and index was updated when I woke up this morning. Seemed like a seamless process really.


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## wjemather (Apr 15, 2021)

Springveldt said:



			There should be some traceability within the HDID app though as you have to put in the name of the person who marked your card and you also still sign for it. Whether they are actually holding that data I don't know as I haven't found anywhere on the front end to display the marker for each of my scores.
		
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Entering the name of your marker in HDID is optional.


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## jim8flog (Apr 15, 2021)

2blue said:



			Can anyone explain why an option for a none-Q is given? Why would anyone bother registering for a None-Q?
		
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Not sure anybody would want.

I presume that is set by the club and would be a good way to warn players that do not understand that to submit scores for handicap they have to meet qualifying conditions.


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## wjemather (Apr 15, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			If a player was that way inclined, yes the new system will be heaven for them. Some clubs may be able to keep on top of it, with full time staff or a pro who checks and verifies scores every day. Not our club, impossible to do that. Pre WHS, it was so much easier, as I could just schedule once or twice a week to go to club, check for scorecards, and only verify scores that were correct.

As I said on an earlier thread, one guy entered his score, which went directly to handicap. About a week or so later, I found his physical scorecard and noticed he had entered his markers score, not his own. His own score was 15 shots lower than what he entered.

But, I think this was always my biggest fear as a handicap secretary, player's being able to submit scores at will. I originally thought the administration of it, filing scorecards and so on, would be impossible. However, I will admit, I have given up on that. No longer do I file scorecards, especially due to the complications of Covid. I have about 100/200 scorecards lying around my house as I've taken them home to process, and probably even more e-mails with pictures of scorecards sent. We've had nearly 200 new members join in the last year, so I absolutely do not have the time to file all these cards when it is safe to do so, nor do I have time to work out if there are any missing cards. I certainly do not have the resources at home to run the full admin of it all, I basically have access a computer and the internet, so I can at least enter scores for players and e-mail them their handicaps.

It seems as if, to do a sound job as a handicap secretary now, it is pretty much a full time job, and you need to be at the club with a decent office set up, so that you have room for filing, computer and printing access. Ideally you check scores before midnight, every single night. And, you have time to phone / contact members when there are issues. I've not even had to deal with members submitting scores from Away courses, but I suppose that will start happening soon now that the MyEG App has been updated.

Carnage. I think it will end up just being a case that you purely trust every single score that is submitted, and only investigate of other members complain about a particular player.
		
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Personally, I think the score entry function of the MyEG App is great and, along with IG's app, further highlights how lax CS have been in updating HDID to provide some level of score verification. As I said above, it doesn't even require entry of markers name.

Having said that, much like the Rules of Golf, the way that the Rules of Handicapping have been designed and implemented puts a huge amount of trust in the integrity of individual players. At present, there are simply no tools available within the EG WHS Platform for handicap committees to monitor scores and handicaps properly, and assist in identifying those who are entering scores wrongly or worse, manipulating the system. The reports that are available (e.g. daily score listings) simply don't have sufficient detail to easily highlight any anomalies (high/low scores, missing holes, etc.).

Until the systems have adequate functionality, handicap committees will remain hamstrung and are able to do little more than wait for review requests or reports of possible mistakes - and even then is requires more legwork than it should do due to said missing features.


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## clubchamp98 (Apr 15, 2021)

I think all the extra work that is needed for this will put a lot of people off the HC “job”
Mostly done by volunteers this might have to become a full time job for somebody.


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## jim8flog (Apr 15, 2021)

GGTTH said:



			First card in yesterday. I am registered and showing on the members list of the ClubV1 app, and I have also a registered HowDidIDo account (ClubV1 and HDID passport), however when I log onto HDID it asks me to search for my club and when I find it, it says I'm not in the clubs list. Do I need to have submitted my 3 cards before I'll be on their list? Or is it simply a case of the club haven't got round to adding me yet?

And once I've submitted my 3 cards, what happens? Do I get an e-mail or something stating my handicap? How long does this usually take or is it dependent on the club itself?

Sorry for the probably stupid questions, as someone completely new to handicapping I'm sure i'll have alot more over time.
		
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I am presuming you have to submit 3 cards to your club for them to get you a CDH number.  Scotland golf issue you with a first handicap not the club as I understand it.

One thing you can do is to submit all three cards at the same which makes the H/Cap sec job easier.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 15, 2021)

I've just received an email from my club advising that scores entered via the EG app will not be accepted 😔. A local meeting of county bods highlighted a range of problems and it has scared them off for the time being. 

A shame as the system so well laid out by @Canfordhacker looks so good. Hopefully it will just be temporary and they will look again as the season progresses.


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## D-S (Apr 15, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've just received an email from my club advising that scores entered via the EG app will not be accepted 😔. A local meeting of county bods highlighted a range of problems and it has scared them off for the time being.

A shame as the system so well laid out by @Canfordhacker looks so good. Hopefully it will just be temporary and they will look again as the season progresses.
		
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Is this a county wide ban on scoring via the EG App or just your club?


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## wjemather (Apr 15, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've just received an email from my club advising that scores entered via the EG app will not be accepted 😔. A local meeting of county bods highlighted a range of problems and it has scared them off for the time being.

A shame as the system so well laid out by @Canfordhacker looks so good. Hopefully it will just be temporary and they will look again as the season progresses.
		
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Surely if the club simply required additional verification for such scores, it would effectively be no different from any of their current score submission requirements? And would certainly be less work for the poor handicap committee than searching for and deleting scores on a daily basis.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 15, 2021)

D-S said:



			Is this a county wide ban on scoring via the EG App or just your club?
		
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Just my club. The manager, proprietary club, has reacted yo the stories he heard today.

I got the impression that a good number are people trying out the app, create scorecard etc, effectively starting a round and then obviously not putting scores in because they are sat at home or work. I think someone on here fell foul of this and had to email his h/c sec to get it annulled.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 15, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Surely if the club simply required additional verification for such scores, it would effectively be no different from any of their current score submission requirements? And would certainly be less work for the poor handicap committee than searching for and deleting scores on a daily basis.
		
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You are preaching to the converted, I agree. The person in charge is not that great with tech / apps etc and this fits his preconceptions. 

Hopefully it will be reviewed in a few months. Another meeting, positive comments etc


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## pauljames87 (Apr 15, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			You are preaching to the converted, I agree. The person in charge is not that great with tech / apps etc and this fits his preconceptions. 

Hopefully it will be reviewed in a few months. Another meeting, positive comments etc
		
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Sorry but is that even in line with whs? Could a club do that?

Not up to a club to ban it

If it works and is accepted tough really 

I emailed our handicap sec a copy of the card straight afters 

If he takes it off I'll go to county and then to golf England .. the system is there to be used.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 15, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Just my club. The manager, proprietary club, has reacted yo the stories he heard today.

I got the impression that a good number are people trying out the app, create scorecard etc, effectively starting a round and then obviously not putting scores in because they are sat at home or work. I think someone on here fell foul of this and had to email his h/c sec to get it annulled.
		
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That was using my own clubs app 😂


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 15, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Just my club. The manager, proprietary club, has reacted yo the stories he heard today.

I got the impression that a good number are people trying out the app, create scorecard etc, effectively starting a round and then obviously not putting scores in because they are sat at home or work. I think someone on here fell foul of this and had to email his h/c sec to get it annulled.
		
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It will end up being the first of many because there are so many loopholes and issues currently 

They still haven’t sorted links from the ISV to Dotgolf 

There appears to be a lot of running - hitting an issue and instead of sorting it out just bypassing and carry on running. It all needs to be done a lot more methodical to ensure every step is smooth and in place and all the relevant parties can see and understand each step. It potentially could get to the stage where clubs will just wipe their hands clean , turn off their apps for score entry outside comps and allow EG to maintain all handicaps. 

Throughout a lot of this whole process EG ignoring clubs , counties and ISV’s - they got very lucky that lockdown happened when WHS started -and they haven’t used the break to sort out issues that many clubs are having. 

Theoretically it’s all smooth apart from a few steps that need to be there - practically is a cluster mess.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 15, 2021)

Other than tradition and change don't see why it would be a problem for clubs to allow EG do all the general play cards outside of comps 

Their app is crackin and works.

Their will always be dishonest people 

People could just sign cards saying someone hit this without that being right If they so wanted so don't see it as that much of a big deal


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## pauljames87 (Apr 15, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Just my club. The manager, proprietary club, has reacted yo the stories he heard today.

I got the impression that a good number are people trying out the app, create scorecard etc, effectively starting a round and then obviously not putting scores in because they are sat at home or work. I think someone on here fell foul of this and had to email his h/c sec to get it annulled.
		
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Won't this lose members to nomad when they get handicaps as they can use whs properly and not be held back?


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## 2blue (Apr 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Won't this lose members to nomad when they get handicaps as they can use whs properly and not be held back?
		
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But they won't be welcomed to play in any Opens I've seen.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 15, 2021)

2blue said:



			But they won't be welcomed to play in any Opens I've seen.
		
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If clubs start banning the use of whs properly then their clubs handicaps aren't the true reflection they could be

Clubs should be encouraging players to stick in as many cards as possible to get a true reflection


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Won't this lose members to nomad when they get handicaps as they can use whs properly and not be held back?
		
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I think you are crediting people with more knowledge than they actually have. Most golfers are oblivious to new stuff that has and is happening.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 15, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I think you are crediting people with more knowledge than they actually have. Most golfers are oblivious to new stuff that has and is happening.
		
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Very true lol I hope my club doesn't follow suit 

Example I'll give is today I did mine and got a 1.6 cut to my index 

So going into the comp next time I'll play off 1 shot less 

So surely it's a good thing


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Very true lol I hope my club doesn't follow suit

Example I'll give is today I did mine and got a 1.6 cut to my index

So going into the comp next time I'll play off 1 shot less

So surely it's a good thing
		
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Agreed. I don't have an issue with it. It's more convenient than standing in a queue to enter scores on a screen, simpler than handing in a card from an away round and hoping something will come of it.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 15, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			Agreed. I don't have an issue with it. It's more convenient than standing in a queue to enter scores on a screen, simpler than handing in a card from an away round and hoping something will come of it.
		
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Plus will psi under whs become any course making queue longer?

I prefer the old handicap

My index seems what my handicap should be ..

But the app system is a massive improvement


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## sweaty sock (Apr 15, 2021)

Canfordhacker said:



			Two of us used the England Golf App for our round yesterday to test it out. Below is the summary I sent to our group to help enlighten them. I am very impressed. EG Instagram account also saying there are GPS elements to the app such that you have to be close to the course for which you are registering a round.


we used the “enter score” option in the middle at the bottom, before we teed off 9note you may have to update the app as this is a recent addition)
create a scorecard- this asks you to select the club and tees (which means you can use it if you play away)
Get a message at this point that if you confirm you will be expected to submit scores.
app tells you your course handicap.
me and Andy also added each other so we were essentially marking each others cards.
We then left the app alone til after the round.
When we got back to the clubhouse, over a pint, we agreed the scores as we usually would
Smiley (our third playing partner) then created a round on the app just for him. He was told he couldn’t submit it for two hours (which is the pre-register intent element we have been discussing)
Andy and I both entered our gross scores (for both of us) pretty much like you would on the screen in the clubhouse.
Hit the submit button
App asks you to physically sign the card on screen with your finger.
App asks who is verifying the card. Given we had played together, it asked me if Andy was verifying my card. I said yes.
Andy then got a message on the app to ask him to verify my score.
Also received an email from the club Email address (ie not England golf) notifying that there is a score to be verified
Go to the app and verify the score
Andy holed out for an 8 on the 14th. We entered that score, and the final submission showed as 8 (7) to indicate a net double bogey had been calculated. It knocked a shot off his gross to reflect that too. Neat.
Score is currently sitting there waiting for the overnight run that will add the playing condition calculation and calculate the differential and hence new handicap index.
Smiley only entered his own score - it still asked him for a verifier. He picked me off his friend list and I followed the same process 2 hours later when the notification came through.
This morning HI updated accordingly, following PCC (which was 0 in this case)


Click to expand...

I'm terriffied by all of this.  Its literally the end of handicapping in my view.  Did Smileys card effect his handicap despite not pre registering?


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## Old Skier (Apr 15, 2021)

There is a simple report that HC Sec have access to that shows the daily input of scores to the WHS DB whether submitted via ISV or EG App.

Its a shame that so many forum members are in clubs where they think that there members will be using the various apps for cheating. Whether the EG or the ISV app is used it can be checked. I appreciate that many of us are volunteers running this but the daily report is so simple that it should become obvious when members are abusing the system.

As to @Lord Tyrion club banning the use of the app, I presume they are going to check the DB daily as that is the only way they will know if anyone is breaking the ban.


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## sweaty sock (Apr 15, 2021)

Erm, wasnt the example I quoted above cheating?


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## Old Skier (Apr 15, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			Erm, wasnt the example I quoted above cheating?
		
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And it can be checked and card deleted.


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## sweaty sock (Apr 15, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			And it can be checked and card deleted.
		
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We'll see I suppose...


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## wjemather (Apr 15, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			There is a simple report that HC Sec have access to that shows the daily input of scores to the WHS DB whether submitted via ISV or EG App.

Its a shame that so many forum members are in clubs where they think that there members will be using the various apps for cheating. Whether the EG or the ISV app is used it can be checked. I appreciate that many of us are volunteers running this but the daily report is so simple that it should become obvious when members are abusing the system.

As to @Lord Tyrion club banning the use of the app, I presume they are going to check the DB daily as that is the only way they will know if anyone is breaking the ban.
		
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It would be very useful if the daily scores report contained additional details beyond the basics, e.g. HI, CH, CR, Slope, Stableford points, adjusted gross/net, etc.


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## Liverpoolphil (Apr 15, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			And it can be checked and card deleted.
		
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As I said theoretically it’s spot on , check score , suspect delete etc but practically a lot of clubs will struggle “if” the uptake is what it seems and that’s more than what they expected 

There are going to be a lot of incorrect scores imo that will slip through the net along with people finding ways to manipulate the system - and it appears a lot easier to do that these days than previously. As someone said a lot of it relies on trust - and the majority of people we know we can trust - but there are plenty out there we know that already find ways to manipulate their handicap


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## rulefan (Apr 15, 2021)

There is of course 'peer review' where anyone is supposed to be able to check anyone else's score - but will anyone bother?


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## Old Skier (Apr 15, 2021)

rulefan said:



			There is of course 'peer review' where anyone is supposed to be able to check anyone else's score - but will anyone bother?
		
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I have left someone who scored my card to verify my score which unfortunately there is an issue because he can’t work out how to do it. So as verification is required cheating will involve two people.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 15, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			I have left someone who scored my card to verify my score which unfortunately there is an issue because he can’t work out how to do it. So as verification is required cheating will involve two people.
		
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Which always was the case wasn't it?

If he can't work out it came through to me as a message in my inbox on the app


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## jim8flog (Apr 15, 2021)

Personally I cannot see much difference between pre WHS and post WHS.

The app on IG was available before WHS as was the manual system of submitting supplementary scores. If 2 players wanted to collude they could do so then. We did have a slight problem with one player submitting a score every time he played and it could be seen from the booking sheet he was on his own and words were had.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 15, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Personally I cannot see much difference between pre WHS and post WHS.

The app on IG was available before WHS as was the manual system of submitting supplementary scores. If 2 players wanted to collude they could do so then. We did have a slight problem with one player submitting a score every time he played and it could be seen from the booking sheet he was on his own and words were had.
		
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The big difference is pre WHS, any score that was entered by the player had to be accepted by Committee BEFORE touching his handicap record. Under WHS, the score that is entered by the player goes straight to his record with no checks by Committee.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 15, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			The big difference is pre WHS, any score that was entered by the player had to be accepted by Committee BEFORE touching his handicap record. Under WHS, the score that is entered by the player goes straight to his record with no checks by Committee.
		
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But what's the issue really? The most anyone could increase their handicap is 5 within a year but to do so they have to get rid of their good rounds not their bad ones?


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## nickjdavis (Apr 15, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			There is a simple report that HC Sec have access to that shows the daily input of scores to the WHS DB whether submitted via ISV or EG App.

n.
		
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What system is this report available in?

I cant find such a thing in HandicapMaster. (not saying it is not there....just cant find it!!)


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## Swango1980 (Apr 15, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			But what's the issue really? The most anyone could increase their handicap is 5 within a year but to do so they have to get rid of their good rounds not their bad ones?
		
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Nothing wrong, if you are comfortable there will be likely be many more incorrect scores entered into the system I guess.


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## rosecott (Apr 15, 2021)

nickjdavis said:



			What system is this report available in?

I cant find such a thing in HandicapMaster. (not saying it is not there....just cant find it!!)
		
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I suspect he meant on the WHS platform.


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## nickjdavis (Apr 15, 2021)

rosecott said:



			I suspect he meant on the WHS platform.
		
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I misread the post to read that the report would tell you which app the score was submitted via. I was aware of the report on the WHS site...was thinking there was another one that would deliver more detail about the manner of score submission.

Reading the post again I can see that I've misinterpreted what it was saying.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 16, 2021)

Had our first instance yesterday where a player didn't bother submitting his score on howdidido for the competition.

Under the old handicap system, it would have been easy to close the competition at a defined deadline and put the guy as an NR I suppose.

Because of WHS, the competition secretary stayed up to 11pm to see if he'd send his score (trying to.contact the guy several times without success), despite having to be up for work at 5am. He then messaged all the players saying the competition wouldn't be closed that day as one player had failed to submit a score, and we are trying to get it.

He got a reply this morning. The guy said he couldn't find his ball on 15th, and couldn't be bothered going back to tee. So he stopped playing and didn't hand in his card.

So now I have to contact the chap and remind him of his responsibilities for handicap. No doubt the first time of many. Pain in the neck.

Two questions, just to help clarification:

1. In this situation, assuming there is no means to find his scores, should we put 0 for every hole on Club V1 and it will sort out penalty scores?
2. Let us say he completed all holes, but just didn't hand in his card. But, we could find his scores on someone elses card. Presumably we'd enter those scores for him. But, is there an option to then DQ him in Club V1 for a no return. I don't run the competition side, so just wondering how club V1 would deal with the score in terms of handicap and in terms of competition result


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## rulefan (Apr 16, 2021)

Why did the comp sec need to close the comp? All the returned scores would have gone to the WHS overnight for handicapping anyway. The comp only needs to be closed for result purposes and that could have been done the next day or even later.


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## 2blue (Apr 16, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Had our first instance yesterday where a player didn't bother submitting his score on howdidido for the competition.

Under the old handicap system, it would have been easy to close the competition at a defined deadline and put the guy as an NR I suppose.

Because of WHS, the competition secretary stayed up to 11pm to see if he'd send his score (trying to.contact the guy several times without success), despite having to be up for work at 5am. He then messaged all the players saying the competition wouldn't be closed that day as one player had failed to submit a score, and we are trying to get it.

He got a reply this morning. The guy said he couldn't find his ball on 15th, and couldn't be bothered going back to tee. So he stopped playing and didn't hand in his card.

So now I have to contact the chap and remind him of his responsibilities for handicap. No doubt the first time of many. Pain in the neck.

Two questions, just to help clarification:

1. In this situation, assuming there is no means to find his scores, should we put 0 for every hole on Club V1 and it will sort out penalty scores?
2. Let us say he completed all holes, but just didn't hand in his card. But, we could find his scores on someone elses card. Presumably we'd enter those scores for him. But, is there an option to then DQ him in Club V1 for a no return. I don't run the competition side, so just wondering how club V1 would deal with the score in terms of handicap and in terms of competition result
		
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We had 4 cards not returned on Sat so they were simply DQ'd & 0's added at Comp close, 10pm......  emailed giving 24hrs to supply scores/reasons otherwise (on 1st occassion) score will be removed from WHS Platform..... 2nd occassion Penalty score administered. It transpired that 1 guy was 'fiddling' with App & entered Comp but never intended to play (not on BRS) others returned scores with apologies. We think & hope it will settle down. We have 4 of us in H/cap Team, 2 of us doing the detail stuff. Got to get your CTC's fine tuned.


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## wjemather (Apr 16, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Had our first instance yesterday where a player didn't bother submitting his score on howdidido for the competition.

Under the old handicap system, it would have been easy to close the competition at a defined deadline and put the guy as an NR I suppose.

Because of WHS, the competition secretary stayed up to 11pm to see if he'd send his score (trying to.contact the guy several times without success), despite having to be up for work at 5am. He then messaged all the players saying the competition wouldn't be closed that day as one player had failed to submit a score, and we are trying to get it.

He got a reply this morning. The guy said he couldn't find his ball on 15th, and couldn't be bothered going back to tee. So he stopped playing and didn't hand in his card.

So now I have to contact the chap and remind him of his responsibilities for handicap. No doubt the first time of many. Pain in the neck.

Two questions, just to help clarification:

1. In this situation, assuming there is no means to find his scores, should we put 0 for every hole on Club V1 and it will sort out penalty scores?
2. Let us say he completed all holes, but just didn't hand in his card. But, we could find his scores on someone elses card. Presumably we'd enter those scores for him. But, is there an option to then DQ him in Club V1 for a no return. I don't run the competition side, so just wondering how club V1 would deal with the score in terms of handicap and in terms of competition result
		
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(Unless there's been an update in the past few days) ClubV1 doesn't deal with unreturned competition scores correctly. The DQ options are not available and all holes are treated as net double-bogeys (when it should just record an unfulfilled intent). This means the score then needs to be deleted from WHS by the handicap secretary, with a penalty score added the following day if deemed appropriate.

In scenario 2, it's the same as above but instead of a penalty score being entered the following day, his actual scores should be entered on WHS as soon as they become available.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 16, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Why did the comp sec need to close the comp? All the returned scores would have gone to the WHS overnight for handicapping anyway. The comp only needs to be closed for result purposes and that could have been done the next day or even later.
		
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For the benefit of members only. Many like to see how they have done in the competition, so we like to do this as early as we can. Closing the competition a day or so late is fine from an admin point of view, but frustrating for quite a few members. A few admitted a number of years ago they just stopped playing because they sometimes had to wait days for a competition to be closed, and it just annoyed them. Everyone is different I guess.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 16, 2021)

2blue said:



			We had 4 cards not returned on Sat so they were simply DQ'd & 0's added at Comp close, 10pm......  emailed giving 24hrs to supply scores/reasons otherwise (on 1st occassion) score will be removed from WHS Platform..... 2nd occassion Penalty score administered. It transpired that 1 guy was 'fiddling' with App & entered Comp but never intended to play (not on BRS) others returned scores with apologies. We think & hope it will settle down. We have 4 of us in H/cap Team, 2 of us doing the detail stuff. Got to get your CTC's fine tuned.
		
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Yeah, that is what we are trying to work on at the moment. Our problem is, we have been trying to educate golfers on the WHS basics for quite some time, and of course many still don't get any of it. We've had a new competition secretary, so he has been firing out competition conditions left right and centre (often to my frustration). So, members are being bombarded with information at the moment, and probably 80% of membership don't even play in comps or even have a handicap at our place.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 16, 2021)

wjemather said:



			(Unless there's been an update in the past few days) ClubV1 doesn't deal with unreturned competition scores correctly. The DQ options are not available and all holes are treated as net double-bogeys (when it should just record an unfulfilled intent). This means the score then needs to be deleted from WHS by the handicap secretary, with a penalty score added the following day if deemed appropriate.

In scenario 2, it's the same as above but instead of a penalty score being entered the following day, his actual scores should be entered on WHS as soon as they become available.
		
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This is what I'm trying to get my head around.

Lets us say he never submits the card, so we never know any scores. Would the penalty score simply be a nett double bogey on every hole (which would mean Club V1 would get the same result if all zero's are entered)?

If his no return score is entered for the competition, then that "penalty" score will be sent to WHS. If he then sends his score after the competition is closed, would you reopen the comp on Club V1 and put in his correct score (if the DQ option was at least present) then close it. And, would that then correctly edit his score on WHS? Or, would you leave the comp alone in Club V1, go directly to WHS Portal, and edit his score directly in that? And, if you did that, presumably Club V1 would not then try and re-edit that because it tries and send his NR through again from the competition on the system.

Re-opening and closing competitions again is quite annoying, in that every time it is closed it sends notifications to members. For some reason, our Seniors close every competition about 3 or 4 times at least, so members are bombarded with notifications on a Wednesday/Thursday.


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## wjemather (Apr 16, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			This is what I'm trying to get my head around.

Lets us say he never submits the card, so we never know any scores. Would the penalty score simply be a nett double bogey on every hole (which would mean Club V1 would get the same result if all zero's are entered)?

If his no return score is entered for the competition, then that "penalty" score will be sent to WHS. If he then sends his score after the competition is closed, would you reopen the comp on Club V1 and put in his correct score (if the DQ option was at least present) then close it. And, would that then correctly edit his score on WHS? Or, would you leave the comp alone in Club V1, go directly to WHS Portal, and edit his score directly in that? And, if you did that, presumably Club V1 would not then try and re-edit that because it tries and send his NR through again from the competition on the system.

Re-opening and closing competitions again is quite annoying, in that every time it is closed it sends notifications to members. For some reason, our Seniors close every competition about 3 or 4 times at least, so members are bombarded with notifications on a Wednesday/Thursday.
		
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CONGU's guidance on the RoH details what the penalty scores should be in any given scenario (G7.1b; p. 19).

Any alterations to scores (other than material corrections to the competition) should only be done on the WHS Platform. Likewise any score returned after the comp has been closed would be entered on the WHS platform.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 16, 2021)

wjemather said:



CONGU's guidance on the RoH details what the penalty scores should be in any given scenario (G7.1b; p. 19).

Any alterations to scores (other than material corrections to the competition) should only be done on the WHS Platform. Likewise any score returned after the comp has been closed would be entered on the WHS platform.
		
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Ok, that is great. So, in terms of the admin of it all (in Club V1), let us say there is a no return. Is it true that Club V1 at present is unable to have a no return option and apply the proper penalty score to WHS (if it did have that option, then it would make things so much easier). If it does not have that option, would the best be the following:

Competition closed without the player(s) who no returned at all
A list of those players sent to handicap secretary
Handicap secretary to go into WHS, and apply an appropriate penalty score (or, if player had been inlcuded in the closed competition, edit that score to ensure it is the proper penalty score)

I think that would help our comp sec to effectively set a deadline for scorecards, and whether they are returned or not, he can close the comp and not worry about chasing players (I can do the chasing for handicap)


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## wjemather (Apr 16, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Ok, that is great. So, in terms of the admin of it all (in Club V1), let us say there is a no return. Is it true that Club V1 at present is unable to have a no return option and apply the proper penalty score to WHS (if it did have that option, then it would make things so much easier). If it does not have that option, would the best be the following:

Competition closed without the player(s) who no returned at all
A list of those players sent to handicap secretary
Handicap secretary to go into WHS, and apply an appropriate penalty score (or, if player had been inlcuded in the closed competition, edit that score to ensure it is the proper penalty score)

I think that would help our comp sec to effectively set a deadline for scorecards, and whether they are returned or not, he can close the comp and not worry about chasing players (I can do the chasing for handicap)
		
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Yes, as far as I can tell, ClubV1 does not deal with unreturned competition scores correctly, so it's a manual clean-up job on the WHS Platform - we haven't run a medal yet, but this was certainly the case with our Stableford comps.

Penalty scores are discretionary, "aimed at those who deliberately fail to return a score, or for those who persistently refuse to return scores", so it's unlikely ISVs will ever automate them. FWIW, I submitted an enhancement request for a better, semi-automated process on the WHS Platform in December/January.

Anyway, I'd probably suggest something like this:

1. Close competition and allow ClubV1 to deal with the unreturned scores as it does (i.e. submit "all 0s" to WHS).
2. List of unreturned scores to handicap secretary.
3. Handicap secretary to delete these scores on WHS asap, ideally the same day (I assume WHS will include these in the PCC calculation, but shouldn't since they are not valid scores).
4. Handicap secretary attempts to obtain the actual scores and input onto WHS asap.
5. Handicap secretary to apply penalty score per the guidance (if deemed appropriate) the following day if the actual scores cannot be determined.


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## upsidedown (Apr 16, 2021)

Found a possible flaw with the EG app. Played at Enville today which has poor phone coverage, so wasn't able to open it all. That maybe down to my provider and didn't try WiFi to see if it opened it or not.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 16, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			Found a possible flaw with the EG app. Played at Enville today which has poor phone coverage, so wasn't able to open it all. That maybe down to my provider and didn't try WiFi to see if it opened it or not.
		
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This will be a problem but you could pre reg with the pro and sign the card the old fashioned way no?


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## upsidedown (Apr 16, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			This will be a problem but you could pre reg with the pro and sign the card the old fashioned way no?
		
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Probably yes if you're keen to put a score in


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## Canfordhacker (Apr 19, 2021)

sweaty sock said:



			I'm terriffied by all of this.  Its literally the end of handicapping in my view.  Did Smileys card effect his handicap despite not pre registering?
		
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He announced his intention on the first tee to register the round, so it was always going to be put in. It didn't affect his handicap but it is a part of his scoring record. The two hour delay that was forced on him is, IMO, a good thing. At our club we have had a change in the golf team, and they absolutely haven't got to grips with any way of registering rounds prior to playing at the moment- so to me the app is a godsend. My concern is that this local situation means some people will just put a card in the box if it is a poor round to raise their handicap ahead of comps restarting in May. My group are registering all rounds at moment, but i think it will be to our overall detriment. I have already resigned myself to the fact that i will be playing for my handicap, not prizes, when comps resume till it settles. I don't think many other members at all will submit cards in April.


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## Crazyface (Apr 20, 2021)

Entered a supplementary score on howdidido yesterday.. selected yellow tees. It is almost immediately added to the EG golf app and by this morning was confirmed as a qualifying score against my handicap. How bluddy cool is that!!!!!!? Awesome 👍😎


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## Crazyface (Apr 20, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			I've just received an email from my club advising that scores entered via the EG app will not be accepted 😔. A local meeting of county bods highlighted a range of problems and it has scared them off for the time being.

A shame as the system so well laid out by @Canfordhacker looks so good. Hopefully it will just be temporary and they will look again as the season progresses.
		
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Shocking behaviour. Not embracing new technology. Fuddy duddys.


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## ianh.90 (Apr 20, 2021)

Hoping to potentially ask a stupid q, as I am not fully clued up on WHS as I probably would like to be. 

I submitted a 9 hole score last night through how did I do which is automatically picked up by Scottish Golf, pre registered submitted my score of 40. Now having a look on SG this morning my adjusted score is 84. How is this figure calculated as I have tried to find some info and I am struggling to understand in my simplistic mind. Is it due to the fact, although we registered for 9 they have to account for a potential poor back 9 (its only a 9 hole course), which to be fair my norm is around a 43ish so was a good round for myself?


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## abjectplop (Apr 20, 2021)

See below:


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## jim8flog (Apr 20, 2021)

ianh.90 said:



			Hoping to potentially ask a stupid q, as I am not fully clued up on WHS as I probably would like to be.

I submitted a 9 hole score last night through how did I do which is automatically picked up by Scottish Golf, pre registered submitted my score of 40. Now having a look on SG this morning my adjusted score is 84. How is this figure calculated as I have tried to find some info and I am struggling to understand in my simplistic mind. Is it due to the fact, although we registered for 9 they have to account for a potential poor back 9 (its only a 9 hole course), which to be fair my norm is around a 43ish so was a good round for myself?
		
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  As per abjectplop

If you want to read the whole lot re 9 hole scores the reference is Rule 5.1b of 

https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/WHSDocs/WHS-Rules-of-Handicapping.pdf


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## USER1999 (Apr 20, 2021)

OK, this may have been addressed previously, but there is a lot to read here.

Medal, Saturday, off the blue markers (back tees). Greens pretty rapid, some tough pin positions. A guy I played with today had a tough time.

Today, he puts in a supplementary score. Off the blue tees, so same allowance. Greens slower, pins easier. But.... the big difference, the blue tees were further forward than the white blocks.

Now according to the chart, handicap allowance is the same off whites or blues, despite 600 yards difference in course length. So he played a minimum of 800 yards shorter than Saturday.

He hit 81 net 67, off an allowance of 14 off blues. This seems crazy to me. 

Is there some other equation that comes in, or is this the same as playing off the blue stones, despite that not being so?


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## upsidedown (Apr 20, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			OK, this may have been addressed previously, but there is a lot to read here.

Medal, Saturday, off the blue markers (back tees). Greens pretty rapid, some tough pin positions. A guy I played with today had a tough time.

Today, he puts in a supplementary score. Off the blue tees, so same allowance. Greens slower, pins easier. But.... the big difference, the blue tees were further forward than the white blocks.

Now according to the chart, handicap allowance is the same off whites or blues, despite 600 yards difference in course length. So he played a minimum of 800 yards shorter than Saturday.

He hit 81 net 67, off an allowance of 14 off blues. This seems crazy to me.

Is there some other equation that comes in, or is this the same as playing off the blue stones, despite that not being so?
		
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https://www.bigga.org.uk/news-listing/world-handicap-system-impact-greenkeepers.html


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## USER1999 (Apr 20, 2021)

upsidedown said:



https://www.bigga.org.uk/news-listing/world-handicap-system-impact-greenkeepers.html

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Fine, but none of that applies here.

My course always, without fail, puts out the three tee markers every day, that are way shorter than the measured course. Some of the tees are 80 yards off where they should be.


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## upsidedown (Apr 20, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Fine, but none of that applies here.

My course always, without fail, puts out the three tee markers every day, that are way shorter than the measured course. Some of the tees are 80 yards off where they should be.
		
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If they are within the 100 yards then they are fine , but over they are not . From the scenario you described any scores submitted for casual play should not count


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## USER1999 (Apr 20, 2021)

But if the app allows it, how can some one then say no?


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## upsidedown (Apr 20, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			But if the app allows it, how can some one then say no?
		
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Because the App doesn't put the markers out  Your match sec and greens chairman should have consulted with the greens staff to ensure they are up to speed with new WHS and it's requirements


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## USER1999 (Apr 20, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			Because the App doesn't put the markers out  Your match sec and greens chairman should have consulted with the greens staff to ensure they are up to speed with new WHS and it's requirements
		
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Never going to happen.


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## upsidedown (Apr 20, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Never going to happen.
		
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I doubt your club is isolated in this too and it does highlight that WHS and it's principles are reliant on courses being set up correctly day on day


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## Swango1980 (Apr 20, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Never going to happen.
		
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It sounds like your Committee / Green Staff are not acting as they should be then. So, if any there is any weaknesses here, it is not WHS. It is your club committee / green staff. 

Why do they change the blue tee markers so significantly?


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## USER1999 (Apr 20, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			It sounds like your Committee / Green Staff are not acting as they should be then. So, if any there is any weaknesses here, it is not WHS. It is your club committee / green staff.

Why do they change the blue tee markers so significantly?
		
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Because the older members don't want to play off the back (blue)tees, but don't want to play off the whites, as it's demeaning.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 20, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Because the older members don't want to play off the back (blue)tees, but don't want to play off the whites, as it's demeaning.
		
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But they are happy playing off the blue tees, which are brought forward of the whites? That is bizarre. Maybe the Seniors could have their own brand new set of pink tees  

If I was determined to get big handicap cuts, let me know days when Seniors move the blue tees, and I'll come and play some general play rounds at your place


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## USER1999 (Apr 20, 2021)

But this is getting to the core of why I disagree with supplemental cards. It's a complete nonsense.


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## Wabinez (Apr 20, 2021)

But it isn’t a WHS issue. It’s a club issue.


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## jim8flog (Apr 20, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Fine, but none of that applies here.

My course always, without fail, puts out the three tee markers every day, that are way shorter than the measured course. Some of the tees are 80 yards off where they should be.
		
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 Tee markers *should* be within plus or minus 10 yards of the fixed distance point. There is some allowance for protection of the tees, avoidance of damage and tees undergoing repair.


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## Bdill93 (Apr 21, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			But this is getting to the core of why I disagree with supplemental cards. It's a complete nonsense.
		
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Your club moving a certain colour of the measured tees forward for the sake of the old boys pride is a complete nonsense. 

Make them play off white and the handicap effects will not be so drastic. 

Why do people actually care about the colour of the blocks?!


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## rulefan (Apr 21, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			But this is getting to the core of why I disagree with supplemental cards. It's a complete nonsense.
		
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Supplementary Scores were part of CONGU. 
General Play is WHS.


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## wjemather (Apr 21, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Because the older members don't want to play off the back (blue)tees, but don't want to play off the whites, as it's demeaning.
		
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Players should play from the tee markers most suited to their abilities, not their egos.


murphthemog said:



			But this is getting to the core of why I disagree with supplemental cards. It's a complete nonsense.
		
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It has nothing to do with supplementary/general play/casual rounds - it's purely down to course/greens staff not setting the course up in accordance with the rules of handicapping, presumably to pander to players who won't do as above. Your handicap committee should be removing all scores submitted on days when the course is not setup correctly.


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## Crazyface (Apr 21, 2021)

After reading the post on how to do scores on "away" courses I was just adding the wife in as a "friend" ready for Saturday's game at an away course and noticed her H/C has now dropped 2 shots due to her score entry on Monday. 

This is a bluddy brilliant idea!!!!!


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## upsidedown (Apr 21, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Players should play from the tee markers most suited to their abilities, not their egos.

It has nothing to do with supplementary/general play/casual rounds - it's purely down to course/greens staff not setting the course up in accordance with the rules of handicapping, presumably to pander to players who won't do as above. Your handicap committee should be removing all scores submitted on days when the course is not setup correctly.
		
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I've been chatting to our Match Chairman about this as our tees are getting quite a lot of wear trying to keep to the 100 yards tolerance. There may have to be days we say the course is not available for casual rounds, to give them a rest ?


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## wjemather (Apr 21, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			I've been chatting to our Match Chairman about this as our tees are getting quite a lot of wear trying to keep to the 100 yards tolerance. There may have to be days we say the course is not available for casual rounds, to give them a rest ?
		
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Long term, I would suggest getting creative with additional sets of tee markers, such that all areas of the teeing grounds can be used to even wear (making sure there is +/-10 yards available from each permanent distance marker); having different sets of markers in play on different days would also help.


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## upsidedown (Apr 21, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Long term, I would suggest getting creative with additional sets of tee markers, such that all areas of the teeing grounds can be used to even wear (making sure there is +/-10 yards available from each permanent distance marker); having different sets of markers in play on different days would also help.
		
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Just been doing a spreadsheet . If the 1st was 10 yards behind the "Stones" and the 10th on the "Stones " and pro rata in-between i.e. 18th tee marker would be 8 yards forward of "Stones", the green keepers could move the markers forward at a yard a day on a 20 day rotation to give sufficient recovery time . Once tee markers got to 10 yards in front of "stones" go to the back and start all over again.


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## fenwayrich (Apr 21, 2021)

murphthemog said:



			Fine, but none of that applies here.

My course always, without fail, puts out the three tee markers every day, that are way shorter than the measured course. Some of the tees are 80 yards off where they should be.
		
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We have a similar problem, albeit nothing to do with our members' ego. The course was remeasured and rated in September 2019, assuming that a new back tee would be built on our 14th. Construction has not yet taken place, so we are always going to be 30 yards short on that hole even if we use the very back of the current tee. Additionally, our greens committee seem very keen to protect the teeing areas and will only 'guarantee' that the white course is within 100 yards of its measured length on competition days. I played a casual round yesterday and the course was at least 230 yards shorter than the card. This seems totally contrary to the spirit of WHS. I am putting some evidence together to present to the people in charge of the club, in the hope that we can find a way forward.


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## Beedee (Apr 21, 2021)

Why not just say that for a few days mid-week if you want to have a general play round being acceptable for handicap, it WILL be off the yellows?  (Or which ever tees are least worn out).  It's a measured course.  It's got a CR and a slope.  If the players are too proud to play off those tees then they can't use those days to fiddle their handicaps.  That way you protect the other tees and the handicaps.


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## 4LEX (Apr 21, 2021)

Could a scratch player play off the ladies tees for handicap purposes?

Sounds slightly insane but I'm planning a mates golf day and it'll be mainly having a laugh and drinking with a night out. However theres a mix of players from plus handicaps to some who would struggle to break 100. I just want to make it fun and fancy going off the ladies tees to see how low I can go and make it more fun for the hackers.


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## upsidedown (Apr 21, 2021)

4LEX said:



			Could a scratch player play off the ladies tees for handicap purposes?

Sounds slightly insane but I'm planning a mates golf day and it'll be mainly having a laugh and drinking with a night out. However theres a mix of players from plus handicaps to some who would struggle to break 100. I just want to make it fun and fancy going off the ladies tees to see how low I can go and make it more fun for the hackers.
		
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If they have been rated for men, then absolutely 😉😁👍


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## pauljames87 (Apr 21, 2021)

4LEX said:



			Could a scratch player play off the ladies tees for handicap purposes?

Sounds slightly insane but I'm planning a mates golf day and it'll be mainly having a laugh and drinking with a night out. However theres a mix of players from plus handicaps to some who would struggle to break 100. I just want to make it fun and fancy going off the ladies tees to see how low I can go and make it more fun for the hackers.
		
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Something we defo need to address in this country 

Should be front middle and back tees


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## 4LEX (Apr 21, 2021)

upsidedown said:



			If they have been rated for men, then absolutely 😉😁👍
		
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But aren't they just 'Red' tees and measured? Like some clubs have black tees which are even further forward (often on paths in the healthlad courses)


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## 4LEX (Apr 21, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			Something we defo need to address in this country

Should be front middle and back tees
		
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Won't happen as you'll get ladies wanting to play off the tips to prove a point and reduce most courses to the pace of the M25 at rushhour


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## Swango1980 (Apr 21, 2021)

4LEX said:



			But aren't they just 'Red' tees and measured? Like some clubs have black tees which are even further forward (often on paths in the healthlad courses) 

Click to expand...

No, for handicap purposes, courses are rated differently for men and women. So, in your case the tees will have to have been rated for men (assuming your scratch friends are male).

It would not be possible at my club, because the county only ever rated them for women (they never asked the owner if there was an option for men, and none of the golfing Committee were even aware they were rating the course that day, so had no communication with the raters). Not sure how many other courses will have had red tees rated for men, I know there are a few.


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## USER1999 (Apr 21, 2021)

Our reds don't exist anymore.

They are now yellow.


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## wjemather (Apr 21, 2021)

4LEX said:



			Could a scratch player play off the ladies tees for handicap purposes?

Sounds slightly insane but I'm planning a mates golf day and it'll be mainly having a laugh and drinking with a night out. However theres a mix of players from plus handicaps to some who would struggle to break 100. I just want to make it fun and fancy going off the ladies tees to see how low I can go and make it more fun for the hackers.
		
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There's no such thing "ladies tees". Tees are rated for either men or women, or both; anyone can submit a round for handicapping from any tee rated for their gender.


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## Steve Wilkes (Apr 21, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			No, for handicap purposes, courses are rated differently for men and women. So, in your case the tees will have to have been rated for men (assuming your scratch friends are male).

It would not be possible at my club, because the county only ever rated them for women (they never asked the owner if there was an option for men, and none of the golfing Committee were even aware they were rating the course that day, so had no communication with the raters). Not sure how many other courses will have had red tees rated for men, I know there are a few.
		
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Is there a reason courses are rated different for ladies and men. I use to think a 6 handicapper women was the same as a 6 handicapper for men, but obviously the women/lady is really about a 10 handicapper


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## Swango1980 (Apr 21, 2021)

Steve Wilkes said:



			Is there a reason courses are rated different for ladies and men. I use to think a 6 handicapper women was the same as a 6 handicapper for men, but obviously the women/lady is really about a 10 handicapper
		
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I've tried to find this out before, but never got a definitive answer.

But, you are NOW correct, a 6 handicapper lady is NOT the same as a 6 handicapper man. The ratings take into account typical distance a player can hit tge ball, which is obviously longer for men.


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## wjemather (Apr 21, 2021)

Steve Wilkes said:



			Is there a reason courses are rated different for ladies and men. I use to think a 6 handicapper women was the same as a 6 handicapper for men, but obviously the women/lady is really about a 10 handicapper
		
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In GB&I at least, for a long time the men's (via CONGU) and ladies (LGU) unions each had their own handicapping system and did their own ratings.


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## Steve Wilkes (Apr 21, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I've tried to find this out before, but never got a definitive answer.

But, you are NOW correct, a 6 handicapper lady is NOT the same as a 6 handicapper man. The ratings take into account typical distance a player can hit tge ball, which is obviously longer for men.
		
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It's not a big deal, but it means that women can only play off usually one set of tees. The distance thing should be irrelevant, A women who hits 150 yards is the same as a man who hits 150 yards, it's a bit like the Red Tees used to be the Ladies & Junior Tees, not sure if that's still true


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## Crazyface (Apr 22, 2021)

I asked at my last place why the ladies couldn't play off the yellows and got the reply from the ladies I was asking that some of the ladies wouldn't reach the ladies tee from the yellows which would make some of the holes impossible for them to play.


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 22, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			I asked at my last place why the ladies couldn't play off the yellows and got the reply from the ladies I was asking that some of the ladies wouldn't reach the ladies tee from the yellows which would make some of the holes impossible for them to play.
		
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That is a reply often churned out. What it does not take into account is the very good female players who hit it a long way and must get bored playing off the reds all of the time. It is a selfish approach by the old guard, bit of a genralisation there but that has been my experience with this generic answer. Why not let all of the ladies decide which tee they can play off, don't restrict those that want to stretch themselves?


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## Steve Wilkes (Apr 22, 2021)

Lord Tyrion said:



			That is a reply often churned out. What it does not take into account is the very good female players who hit it a long way and must get bored playing off the reds all of the time. It is a selfish approach by the old guard, bit of a genralisation there but that has been my experience with this generic answer. *Why not let all of the ladies decide which tee they can play off*, don't restrict those that want to stretch themselves?
		
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This is what I was saying earlier. Because handicaps are different for men and women, unless each sets of tees are rated for both genders, it's impossible to submit cards for handicap purposes.


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## davidy233 (Apr 22, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			No, for handicap purposes, courses are rated differently for men and women. So, in your case the tees will have to have been rated for men (assuming your scratch friends are male).

It would not be possible at my club, because the county only ever rated them for women (they never asked the owner if there was an option for men, and none of the golfing Committee were even aware they were rating the course that day, so had no communication with the raters). Not sure how many other courses will have had red tees rated for men, I know there are a few.
		
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At our place the Medal course has red tees rated for both men and women - and in fact there's a men's stableford each Tuesday played off the red tees.

The much shorter Ashludie course only has whites rated for men and reds rated for women.

To my mind courses should have all tees rated for both sexes.


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## rulefan (Apr 22, 2021)

davidy233 said:



			To my mind courses should have all tees rated for both sexes.
		
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When the pre WHS ratings were started EG gave all clubs that opportunity. I suspect that many (ie most) clubs didn't bother to tell/ask their members.


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## Tashyboy (Apr 23, 2021)

Just outta interest. A PP played 9 holes in an 18 hole comp then had to shoot off to pick up his daughter. He put in Ns for the next 9 holes. How would that affect his hcap going forward as he never completed a full round.


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## apj0524 (Apr 23, 2021)

Tashyboy said:



			Just outta interest. A PP played 9 holes in an 18 hole comp then had to shoot off to pick up his daughter. He put in Ns for the next 9 holes. How would that affect his hcap going forward as he never completed a full round.
		
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According to WHS he did not finish his round for a valid reason so the committee should apply Penalty scores and start sanctions, if they have a process for this.  I thin the use is NS is incorrect if should be NR.  Because he di not complete 10 holes his score doesn't count towards his handicap hence the Committee intervention, at least pointing out his error.  We have a rule, three incompletion rounds competition entry ban


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## Tashyboy (Apr 23, 2021)

apj0524 said:



			According to WHS he did not finish his round for a valid reason so the committee should apply Penalty scores and start sanctions, if they have a process for this.  I thin the use is NS is incorrect if should be NR.  Because he di not complete 10 holes his score doesn't count towards his handicap hence the Committee intervention, at least pointing out his error.  We have a rule, three incompletion rounds competition entry ban
		
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his reasons were genuine, he had to pick up his daughter from school as one of the other kids in class had a positive Covid result. I will talk to him on Tuesday 👍
cheers mah man.


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## SammmeBee (Apr 23, 2021)

wjemather said:



			There's no such thing "ladies tees". Tees are rated for either men or women, or both; anyone can submit a round for handicapping from any tee rated for their gender.
		
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Surely the ladies tees are the ones ladies play off, same as the men’s tees are the men’s tees......?

Obviously they may well be the same tee in mixed competition.....


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## Old Skier (Apr 23, 2021)

rulefan said:



			When the pre WHS ratings were started EG gave all clubs that opportunity. I suspect that many (ie most) clubs didn't bother to tell/ask their members.
		
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No they didn’t or at least the raters didn’t, stating they were to busy and had to get the “normal” tees completed first. i continue to ask for our reds and yellows to be mixed gender rated to no avail.


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## rulefan (Apr 23, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			No they didn’t or at least the raters didn’t, stating they were to busy and had to get the “normal” tees completed first. i continue to ask for our reds and yellows to be mixed gender rated to no avail.
		
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That's a poor show from your county. I know some counties simply couldn't get enough volunteers trained up in time. I had to get another 30 team members. 
A problem for those courses or tees as yet unrated is that rating can only be during the 'season'. In effect late April/May thru September and mixed tees will have to give way to unrated clubs/courses. I don't know what the backlog is in Devon. We had over 180 clubs to do but are virtually there. I think the Isle of Man only had 8 courses to do.


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## williamalex1 (Apr 23, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Not sure anybody would want.

I presume that is set by the club and would be a good way to warn players that do not understand that to submit scores for handicap they have to meet qualifying conditions.
		
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We had this today for our 4bbb comp, non qualifying


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## pauljames87 (Apr 23, 2021)

rulefan said:



			When the pre WHS ratings were started EG gave all clubs that opportunity. I suspect that many (ie most) clubs didn't bother to tell/ask their members.
		
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I'm sure you can explain but why not under whs move to a one size fits all approach? Rate the Tees the same for men and ladies .. then let the ladies handicaps adjust in line 

So somebody said a 6 handicap is really a 10 would it be a bad thing?

Handicaps can go up to 54 now so a 36 handicap lady would have scope 

Tees would be rated for everyone and would get rid of men's Vs ladies .. just players


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## rulefan (Apr 23, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I'm sure you can explain but why not under whs move to a one size fits all approach? Rate the Tees the same for men and ladies .. then let the ladies handicaps adjust in line

So somebody said a 6 handicap is really a 10 would it be a bad thing?

Handicaps can go up to 54 now so a 36 handicap lady would have scope

Tees would be rated for everyone and would get rid of men's Vs ladies .. just players
		
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I suspect that the ladies would not welcome the idea that there would be virtually no ladies in the country with a 0.0 Handicap Index.


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## D-S (Apr 23, 2021)

I was/am part of our County’s course rating team. We were advised that we should only rate tees for genders if there was a specific intention of that club to use those tees for competitions for that gender. Originally some courses wanted all their tees rated for both sexes ‘just for interest’. Whilst we were trying to complete all the ratings by 1/1/20 the original date aimed for, it seemed a waste of resource to rate tees that no one had any intention of playing off ever. We did manage to rate all courses in the county by 1/1/20 and to date no course has asked us to additionally rate a set of tees that we haven’t done as so far as no one has expressed an interest of playing off them. We will, of course if required, but not ‘just for the hell of it’.


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## jim8flog (Apr 23, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			I'm sure you can explain but why not under whs move to a one size fits all approach? Rate the Tees the same for men and ladies .. then let the ladies handicaps adjust in line

So somebody said a 6 handicap is really a 10 would it be a bad thing?

Handicaps can go up to 54 now so a 36 handicap lady would have scope

Tees would be rated for everyone and would get rid of men's Vs ladies .. just players
		
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 This is a recommendation from CONGU already

c. Tee Markers
The tee markers used to designate each set of tees on a golf course should be
consistent in name, colour and/or design and distinguishable from the tee
markers used for other sets of tees. It is strongly recommended that the
Authorized Association issues guidance to golf clubs as to how these avoid any
association with gender or age.

Each hole may have multiple teeing areas and, for handicap purposes, a golf course
is made up of a designated set of tees on each hole. As such, each set of tees (or
golf course) should have a separate Course Rating and Slope Rating, including one
for each gender where appropriate.


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## 3offTheTee (Apr 24, 2021)

May not have enough info but if anybody could point me in the right direction as to the workings out it would be appreciated.

First medal today. My HI 18.8 Course H 22. playing Handicap 21 95% slope 133 at our course.

I have a 92 to come off being my 20th score. I had a nett 76 today but a 6 on stroke index 4 (22 for handicap purposes). The last hole I had a 9 it is SI 9 which I assume will be a 7.

I do NOT understand Nett differential but would my 76 come down to 73 ( 2 at last hole plus 1 on SI 4) Di I then add 73 plus playing handicap 21 to equal 94?

That is all I understand and any help would be appreciated


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## HampshireHog (Apr 24, 2021)

Haven’t had comp under WHS but I believe the primary factors of calculating your differential are Adj Score, Course Rating, PCC and witchcraft.


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			May not have enough info but if anybody could point me in the right direction as to the workings out it would be appreciated.

First medal today. My HI 18.8 Course H 22. playing Handicap 21 95% slope 133 at our course.

I have a 92 to come off being my 20th score. I had a nett 76 today but a 6 on stroke index 4 (22 for handicap purposes). The last hole I had a 9 it is SI 9 which I assume will be a 7.

I do NOT understand Nett differential but would my 76 come down to 73 ( 2 at last hole plus 1 on SI 4) Di I then add 73 plus playing handicap 21 to equal 94?

That is all I understand and any help would be appreciated
		
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Put your feet up, have a glass of wine and enjoy a movie. Your new HC Index will appear on your app in the morning. Enjoy.


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## 3offTheTee (Apr 24, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Put your feet up, have a glass of wine and enjoy a movie. Your new HC Index will appear on your app in the morning. Enjoy.
		
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I realise that it is sorted overnight. All I wanted was does anybody know how it is calculated. At my age it is irrelevant so I am not worried.


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## Old Skier (Apr 24, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			I realise that it is sorted overnight. All I wanted was does anybody know how it is calculated. At my age it is irrelevant so I am not worried.
		
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All info supplied here https://www.englandgolf.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Rules-of-Handicapping-17-12-20.pdf


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## mikejohnchapman (Apr 24, 2021)

rulefan said:



			When the pre WHS ratings were started EG gave all clubs that opportunity. I suspect that many (ie most) clubs didn't bother to tell/ask their members.
		
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Hmmm.... I suspect the conversation was more like "which tees do the men play from and which do the Ladies play from". The topic of gender neutral tees only came up very late in the cycle and there is now a backlog for additional tees to be assessed.


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## mikejohnchapman (Apr 24, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			No they didn’t or at least the raters didn’t, stating they were to busy and had to get the “normal” tees completed first. i continue to ask for our reds and yellows to be mixed gender rated to no avail.
		
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Same here - our request for additional tees has been "added to the list".


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## jim8flog (Apr 24, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			May not have enough info but if anybody could point me in the right direction as to the workings out it would be appreciated.

First medal today. My HI 18.8 Course H 22. playing Handicap 21 95% slope 133 at our course.

I have a 92 to come off being my 20th score. I had a nett 76 today but a 6 on stroke index 4 (22 for handicap purposes). The last hole I had a 9 it is SI 9 which I assume will be a 7.

I do NOT understand Nett differential but would my 76 come down to 73 ( 2 at last hole plus 1 on SI 4) Di I then add 73 plus playing handicap 21 to equal 94?

That is all I understand and any help would be appreciated
		
Click to expand...




3offTheTee said:



			I realise that it is sorted overnight. All I wanted was does anybody know how it is calculated. At my age it is irrelevant so I am not worried.
		
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When you check your H.I tomorrow you can see the card and it is obvious how scores are adjusted.

If you want to work it out for yourself anything worse than *nett *double bogey is converted to that ie the the lowest score at which you would get zero points.


Score Differential = (113 ÷Slope Rating) x (adjusted gross score – Course Rating – PCC adjustment)

You cannot know precisely for yourself because you do not know the PCC (Playing conditions calculation)


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## Foxholer (Apr 24, 2021)

rulefan said:



			When the pre WHS ratings were started EG gave all clubs that opportunity.....
		
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Probably in very fine print/in amongst a huge amount of huge amount of other 'info'!
It's only now that loads of 'other' situations are emerging - but that's how the likes of golf clubs work (at least imo). Given a few months, many - if not all - these 'anomolies' should be addressed, but there's no way EG should consider the conversion to WHS 'done' until all such issues have been resolved.
To me, Ladies off Men's tees and Men of Ladies Tees is a significant 'gap'!


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## rulefan (Apr 24, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Probably in very fine print/in amongst a huge amount of huge amount of other 'info'!
It's only now that loads of 'other' situations are emerging - but that's how the likes of golf clubs work (at least imo). Given a few months, many - if not all - these 'anomolies' should be addressed, but there's no way EG should consider the conversion to WHS 'done' until all such issues have been resolved.
To me, Ladies off Men's tees and Men of Ladies Tees is a significant 'gap'!
		
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There wasn't a huge amount of other 'info' at the time, the rerating exercise started in 2014/2015


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## Foxholer (Apr 25, 2021)

rulefan said:



			There wasn't a huge amount of other 'info' at the time, the rerating exercise started in 2014/2015
		
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So an equivalent issue then! 'Not enough info' and 'Too much info' both cause 'gaps' that require action/generate frustration, though not necessarily 'general' enough that authorities - at whatever level and who have limited resources - can be easily convinced to address them.


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## rulefan (Apr 25, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			So an equivalent issue then! 'Not enough info' and 'Too much info' both cause 'gaps' that require action/generate frustration, though not necessarily 'general' enough that authorities - at whatever level and who have limited resources - can be easily convinced to address them.
		
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Not sure that the 'authorities' had a lot of options. Just a significant shortage of volunteers from members.


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## Crazyface (Apr 25, 2021)

I've got a score awaiting "attestation" but my mate hasn't had the message to do it. Could have been a cock up by me or him to be honest. I've e mailed EG to see if they can help.


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## Foxholer (Apr 25, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Not sure that the 'authorities' had a lot of options. Just *a significant shortage of volunteers from members*.
		
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rulefan said:



			There wasn't a huge amount of other 'info' at the time, the rerating exercise *started in 2014/2015*

Click to expand...

Something that should have been pretty obvious - at least given the 5 or 6 year 'rerating period'!
I'm not overly criticising 'the authorities' btw. Simply noting (though I'm not particularly surprised) that a significant number of glitches with the 'new' seem to have arisen _after_ implementation. As I posted, the lack of 'complete' ratings is _my_ only gripe - and (currently) a minor one at that.


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## jim8flog (Apr 25, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			I've got a score awaiting "attestation" but my mate hasn't had the message to do it. Could have been a cock up by me or him to be honest. I've e mailed EG to see if they can help.
		
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 See Nick's reply to my query in the Experts forum


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## hairball_89 (Apr 25, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Something that should have been pretty obvious - at least given the 5 or 6 year 'rerating period'!
I'm not overly criticising 'the authorities' btw. Simply noting (though I'm not particularly surprised) that a significant number of glitches with the 'new' seem to have arisen _after_ implementation. As I posted, the lack of 'complete' ratings is _my_ only gripe - and (currently) a minor one at that.
		
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Not only "complete" ratings. But I played a course on Friday (Seaford Head) which has still not been rated at all on white or yellows. Scorecard still using SSS and no mention of CR and slope anywhere in clubhouse or tee!


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## rulefan (Apr 25, 2021)

hairball_89 said:



			Not only "complete" ratings. But I played a course on Friday (Seaford Head) which has still not been rated at all on white or yellows. Scorecard still using SSS and no mention of CR and slope anywhere in clubhouse or tee!
		
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The red tees have been rated but they could have been done well before WHS was thought of and given that it is a council course I suspect the usual jobsworth hasn't even thought about it.


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## Foxholer (Apr 25, 2021)

rulefan said:



*The red tees have been rated but they could have been done well before WHS was thought of* and given that it is a council course I suspect the usual jobsworth hasn't even thought about it.
		
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As it's a Congfu registered course, I'd challenge your suspicions!! Perhaps a 'communication issue' somewhere, but it's Congu's responsibility to 'tick the appropriate boxes' imo!
FWIW..https://www.randa.org/courseteeinfo...&ClubName=Seaford Head&ClubCity=&ClubCounty=0


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## Old Skier (Apr 25, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			As it's a Congfu registered course, I'd challenge your suspicions!!
		
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Ladies (red) courses were rated differently than Men’s (yellow blue) and their rating was similar to that of USA/Aus model.


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## rulefan (Apr 25, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Ladies (red) courses were rated differently than Men’s (yellow blue) and their rating was similar to that of USA/Aus model.
		
Click to expand...

The Ladies tees will have been rated under the USGA rating system. All courses in CONGU were rated using the USGA system at least 14 years ago EXCEPT for the EGU Men's courses which used the EGU SSS system


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## rulefan (Apr 25, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			As it's a Congfu registered course, I'd challenge your suspicions!! Perhaps a 'communication issue' somewhere, but it's Congu's responsibility to 'tick the appropriate boxes' imo!
FWIW..https://www.randa.org/courseteeinfo?CourseID=20387&ClubCountry=0&ClubName=Seaford Head&ClubCity=&ClubCounty=0

Click to expand...

On receipt of the multiple issues of the notifications from England Golf the onus was on the clubs to contact the county for suitable dates and time for rating. If the course owners didn't take it up is wasn't the job of the county to chase them. They would have had more that enough to deal with without the laggards.


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## D-S (Apr 25, 2021)

We had a few clubs which did not have certificates of measurement or had tees that were measured but plainly had not been in use for several years. We were unable to rate these courses until they were rectified by the management.


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## rulefan (Apr 25, 2021)

D-S said:



			We had a few clubs which did not have certificates of measurement
		
Click to expand...

We had many of those also


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## Crazyface (Apr 26, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			See Nick's reply to my query in the Experts forum
		
Click to expand...

Could you let me know what post number it is, there are quite a lot of post to go through. I've looked through four pages and not seen it.


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## tobybarker (Apr 26, 2021)

Honestly, who benefits from the new system? If you submit enough cards anyway, your HCP is about right most of the time under the old system. The new system is still open to cheating as all cards are done in trust. Most of us never or seldom pay different courses.....I just never saw the need for the upheaval, to be honest f


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## pauljames87 (Apr 26, 2021)

tobybarker said:



			Honestly, who benefits from the new system? If you submit enough cards anyway, your HCP is about right most of the time under the old system. The new system is still open to cheating as all cards are done in trust. Most of us never or seldom pay different courses.....I just never saw the need for the upheaval, to be honest f
		
Click to expand...

I see the benefit for a golfer who say went down quick and then gets to a handicap they can't play to anymore be it age , injury or just complete loss of form 

They can go up faster than the old 0.1 a round .. would take forever to go up 3 shots or such 

However that said much as I like the new system it does seem a big upheaval... You could have the app system on the old system surely? As in do your cards 

I do like doing my cards from my society days at other course providing I'm playing with someone with a membership number which most of time I am so works well


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## Foxholer (Apr 26, 2021)

rulefan said:



			On receipt of the multiple issues of the notifications from England Golf the onus was on the clubs to contact the county for suitable dates and time for rating. *If the course owners didn't take it up* is wasn't the job of the county to chase them. They would have had more that enough to deal with without the laggards.
		
Click to expand...

You seem to be in defensive obfuscation mode! And it seems I need to repeat my initial comments - that it's the variety of events/styles 
Your above 'explanation' would only be valid if, indeed, the course owners didn't take it up. Those that didn't will likely be getting some well justified 'stick' from their members!


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## rulefan (Apr 26, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			You seem to be in defensive obfuscation mode! And it seems I need to repeat my initial comments - that it's the variety of events/styles
Your above 'explanation' would only be valid if, indeed, the course owners didn't take it up. Those that didn't will likely be getting some well justified 'stick' from their members!
		
Click to expand...

The switch to USGA rating by EG for men's courses was purely a function of the merger between the EGU and the EWGA. It predated the R&A and USGA idea of a WHS by many years.


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## Foxholer (Apr 26, 2021)

rulefan said:



			The switch to USGA rating by EG for men's courses was purely a function of the merger between the EGU and the EWGA. It predated the R&A and USGA idea of a WHS by many years.
		
Click to expand...

Nice to know, but completely irrelevant to my comment!


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## rulefan (Apr 26, 2021)

Foxholer said:



			Nice to know, but completely irrelevant to my comment!
		
Click to expand...

Your posts #2890 & #2892 seemed to embrace multi gender rating with other WHs issues.


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## jim8flog (Apr 26, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			Could you let me know what post number it is, there are quite a lot of post to go through. I've looked through four pages and not seen it.
		
Click to expand...

https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/england-golf-app.108638/


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## Foxholer (Apr 26, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Your posts #2890 & #2892 seemed to embrace multi gender rating with other WHs issues.
		
Click to expand...

That would be a wrong conclusion/interpretation!


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## pauljames87 (Apr 26, 2021)

jim8flog said:



https://forums.golfmonthly.com/threads/england-golf-app.108638/

Click to expand...

So. Played today at my home club 

Was reading on here at home just use intelligence golf 

But my pp started on golf England so I followed 

Worked fine for me

His it downloaded card but wouldn't start the round 

So after a few goes we left it and put his card in via intelligent golf 

When it came to signing mine it worked fine pinged up on his phone in seconds .. weird 

Anyone know any fixes to the geolocation not finding course also? My mate has had it twice (different mate)


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## Old Skier (Apr 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			So. Played today at my home club

Was reading on here at home just use intelligence golf

But my pp started on golf England so I followed

Worked fine for me

His it downloaded card but wouldn't start the round

So after a few goes we left it and put his card in via intelligent golf

When it came to signing mine it worked fine pinged up on his phone in seconds .. weird

Anyone know any fixes to the geolocation not finding course also? My mate has had it twice (different mate)
		
Click to expand...

Was it an iPhone, some older operating systems cannot manage the newer version.


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## pauljames87 (Apr 26, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Was it an iPhone, some older operating systems cannot manage the newer version.
		
Click to expand...

It wasn't, it was a Motorola , not sure what model 

Didn't look new new


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## Deleted member 3432 (Apr 26, 2021)

I'm hoping one of our experts can help me on behalf of my Dad.
He has 6 scores on his handicap record (had a couple of seasons out before rejoining at 85!)
Course rating is 69.7 and slope is 134
He played on Friday and shot an adjusted 111 yet index went from 24.7 to 24.2.

His handicap is at least 10 shots too low, finished last in comp with 25 points and got handicap reduced....


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## Bwgan (Apr 26, 2021)

If he's only got 6 it'll be an average of the lowest 2. 
What happens on the last round doesnt control the HI. Have a look at the table when you've got less than 20 results


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## Swango1980 (Apr 26, 2021)

saving_par said:



			I'm hoping one of our experts can help me on behalf of my Dad.
He has 6 scores on his handicap record (had a couple of seasons out before rejoining at 85!)
Course rating is 69.7 and slope is 134
He played on Friday and shot an adjusted 111 yet index went from 24.7 to 24.2.

His handicap is at least 10 shots too low, finished last in comp with 25 points and got handicap reduced....
		
Click to expand...

If he only had 5 rounds before the latest one, his Index would have been based on his lowest round score differential. Once he submitted his 6th score, his index will be the average of his lowest 2, minus 1.0. So, if his second best round was quite close to his best round, then his handicap could well go down due to the -1.0.

Once he hands in his 7th score, his Index will be based on average of lowest 2 rounds, WITHOUT the -1.0 (so his Index will increase by 1.0 assuming his next round is not one of his best 2)


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## Deleted member 3432 (Apr 26, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			If he only had 5 rounds before the latest one, his Index would have been based on his lowest round score differential. Once he submitted his 6th score, his index will be the average of his lowest 2, minus 1.0. So, if his second best round was quite close to his best round, then his handicap could well go down due to the -1.0.

Once he hands in his 7th score, his Index will be based on average of lowest 2 rounds, WITHOUT the -1.0 (so his Index will increase by 1.0 assuming his next round is not one of his best 2)
		
Click to expand...

Cheers and to Bgwan also.
I suspected best score or 2 was the case.
Problem is best score was back in 2018 before he took time out and he has got quite a bit weaker since and 120 yard drives require a lot of shots to get round the course which he doesn't have at present. 
Club refused a few cards he tried to submit from last season which would have helped due to lack of marker signature. 
Presently finding it difficult to submit a general play card as he doesn't have a smartphone to use app and club have no pro or course manager on site.
No fun playing decent and scoring 25 points...


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## Swango1980 (Apr 26, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Cheers and to Bgwan also.
I suspected best score or 2 was the case.
Problem is best score was back in 2018 before he took time out and he has got quite a bit weaker since and 120 yard drives require a lot of shots to get round the course which he doesn't have at present.
Club refused a few cards he tried to submit from last season which would have helped due to lack of marker signature.
Presently finding it difficult to submit a general play card as he doesn't have a smartphone to use app and club have no pro or course manager on site.
No fun playing decent and scoring 25 points...
		
Click to expand...

Does club not have a PSI terminal? The club should make best efforts to accommodate members. At our club, if players are not IT savy, and especially when PSI terminals had to be kept off due to Covid, I asked members to contact me via email, whatsapp, etc to pre register, and either send photo of card after or post in box. I will then process score as soon as I can.

Perhaps your club is just getting used to all the recent changes.

Once he starts handing in more scores, it should start becoming more reflective of his ability, as more scores will be used in the average, until it can use the best 8 from last 20 rounds


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## Old Skier (Apr 26, 2021)

pauljames87 said:



			It wasn't, it was a Motorola , not sure what model

Didn't look new new
		
Click to expand...

Didn’t know they were still about


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## jim8flog (Apr 26, 2021)

saving_par said:



			I'm hoping one of our experts can help me on behalf of my Dad.
He has 6 scores on his handicap record (had a couple of seasons out before rejoining at 85!)
Course rating is 69.7 and slope is 134
He played on Friday and shot an adjusted 111 yet index went from 24.7 to 24.2.

His handicap is at least 10 shots too low, finished last in comp with 25 points and got handicap reduced....
		
Click to expand...

 Until he gets at least 16 scores on his handicap record his H.I. is likely to jump all over the place


​Number of scores in record                                                                   Handicap index calculation
3
*Lowest 1*
-2​4
*Lowest 1*
-1​5
*Lowest 1*
0​6
*Ave. of lowest 2*
-1​7 or 8
*Ave. of lowest 2*
0​9 to 11
*Ave. of lowest 3*
0​12 to14
*Ave. of lowest 4*
0​15 or 16
*Ave. of lowest 5*
0​17 or 18
*Ave. of lowest 6*
0​19
*Ave. of lowest 7*
0​20 or more
*Ave. of lowest 8*
0​


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## Deleted member 3432 (Apr 26, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Does club not have a PSI terminal? The club should make best efforts to accommodate members. At our club, if players are not IT savy, and especially when PSI terminals had to be kept off due to Covid, I asked members to contact me via email, whatsapp, etc to pre register, and either send photo of card after or post in box. I will then process score as soon as I can.

Perhaps your club is just getting used to all the recent changes.

Once he starts handing in more scores, it should start becoming more reflective of his ability, as more scores will be used in the average, until it can use the best 8 from last 20 rounds
		
Click to expand...

Problem appears to be they are not using PSI terminal for general play scores which he does know how to use.

He is not IT literate so that rules out email, whatsapp etc and doesn't have a smart phone so he needs a very low tech solution. I'm going to get in touch with the comps secretary to see what they can come up with as he sent my dad a note mentioning all of stuff you have mentioned.

Personally I dont see why he cant drop a note in the scorecard box date and time on it saying he is putting a card in.


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## Crazyface (Apr 27, 2021)

A mate on mine has just dropped from 29.4 to 23.4 off one card. How?


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## Swango1980 (Apr 27, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			A mate on mine has just dropped from 29.4 to 23.4 off one card. How?
		
Click to expand...

Impossible to say without more information. Likely scenarios are:

1. His score could have been an exceptional score
2. He had a limited scoring history to begin with
3. A combination of the above


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## rulefan (Apr 27, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			A mate on mine has just dropped from 29.4 to 23.4 off one card. How?
		
Click to expand...

If he had fewer than 3 scores in his record and had a 'best' score, his handicap would be calculated from that score alone minus 2.0.


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## jim8flog (Apr 27, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			A mate on mine has just dropped from 29.4 to 23.4 off one card. How?
		
Click to expand...

 see post #2923


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## rulefan (Apr 27, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			A mate on mine has just dropped from 29.4 to 23.4 off one card. How?
		
Click to expand...

How many scores were in his record?


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## Midnight (Apr 29, 2021)

I have gone to do a scorecard on the app this afternoon, was about to submit it but I have put the wrong course down, is there any way of changing it to the right course.

Cheers


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## rulefan (Apr 29, 2021)

Midnight said:



			I have gone to do a scorecard on the app this afternoon, was about to submit it but I have put the wrong course down, is there any way of changing it to the right course.

Cheers
		
Click to expand...

Have you tried the WHS portal?


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## wjemather (Apr 29, 2021)

Midnight said:



			I have gone to do a scorecard on the app this afternoon, was about to submit it but I have put the wrong course down, is there any way of changing it to the right course.

Cheers
		
Click to expand...

Not that I know of. You'll probably need to speak with your handicap secretary.


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## Rlburnside (Apr 29, 2021)

Now I’m confused we played our first medal and looked at the sheet to see my h/c which was 17 when the results were published I was allocated 16 h/c. 

 Now I know there is a 95% calculation in there but what about putting and signing for a 17 h/c on my card when the results say I was 16 h/c🤷🏼‍♂️


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## Midnight (Apr 29, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Have you tried the WHS portal?
		
Click to expand...

Had a quick look couldn't find anything, I don't think they expect someone to be as much of a bonehead as I am.


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## Midnight (Apr 29, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Not that I know of. You'll probably need to speak with your handicap secretary.
		
Click to expand...

Thank you


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## 2blue (Apr 29, 2021)

Midnight said:



			I have gone to do a scorecard on the app this afternoon, was about to submit it but I have put the wrong course down, is there any way of changing it to the right course.

Cheers
		
Click to expand...

You may need to send it to your H/cap team to be sorted. We have a generic email for such WHS problems.


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## Midnight (Apr 29, 2021)

2blue said:



			You may need to send it to your H/cap team to be sorted. We have a generic email for such WHS problems.
		
Click to expand...

Cheers mate 👍🏾👍🏾


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## 2blue (Apr 29, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			Now I’m confused we played our first medal and looked at the sheet to see my h/c which was 17 when the results were published I was allocated 16 h/c.

Now I know there is a 95% calculation in there but what about putting and signing for a 17 h/c on my card when the results say I was 16 h/c🤷🏼‍♂️
		
Click to expand...

You sign for your Course H/cap on which your H/cap record is based. It depends how the Results Sheet is set-up as to which H/cap shows for your Divisions etc. Your HI is your main H/cap measure


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## Rlburnside (Apr 29, 2021)

2blue said:



			You sign for your Course H/cap on which your H/cap record is based. It depends how the Results Sheet is set-up as to which H/cap shows for your Divisions etc. Your HI is your main H/cap measure
		
Click to expand...

Thanks but call me thick I’m still confused 😂. My HI is 16.6 and my course H/C is 17 , I assumed you just looked at the sheet in the clubhouse to find what your course H/C is and that’s what you play off.


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## Old Skier (Apr 29, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			Thanks but call me thick I’m still confused 😂. My HI is 16.6 and my course H/C is 17 , I assumed you just looked at the sheet in the clubhouse to find what your course H/C is and that’s what you play off.
		
Click to expand...

Depends on the format, if it’s singles stroke play it’s 95% of your course HC which will be 16.


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## Old Skier (Apr 29, 2021)

Midnight said:



			I have gone to do a scorecard on the app this afternoon, was about to submit it but I have put the wrong course down, is there any way of changing it to the right course.

Cheers
		
Click to expand...

Best way out of this if you haven’t submitted this is to not do anything more on the app and ask your HC Sec to submit as a casual round.

For quite a few, the EG app needs some careful instructio which is why I suggest our members use the PSI for casual rounds completed at the home course or the ISV app and use the EG app when at an away course.


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## 2blue (Apr 29, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			Thanks but call me thick I’m still confused 😂. My HI is 16.6 and my course H/C is 17 , *I assumed you just looked at the sheet in the clubhouse to find what your course H/C is and that’s what you play off.*

Click to expand...

As it's a new H/cap system operating in a different way it's no good assuming anything......  at least you are trying to get your head around it whilst many, including some stick-in-the-mud, H/cap Secs who are simply moaning on & on about it & some even against implementing the requirements.


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## Rlburnside (Apr 29, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Depends on the format, if it’s singles stroke play it’s 95% of your course HC which will be 16.
		
Click to expand...

So is it down to me to work the 95% of my course h/c before I play?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 29, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			So is it down to me to work the 95% of my course h/c before I play?
		
Click to expand...

Our place has 2 charts on the wall by the first tee, first one gives you your course h/c from your handicap index for what tee you’re playing off, the 2nd lists what 95% of course h/c for single strokeplay comps is and what 85% of course h/c is for 4BBB comps is.

Takes 5 seconds and is very helpful, might be worth suggesting the 2nd list to your Club if they don’t have one.

I believe every Club has the first chart.


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## rulefan (Apr 29, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			Thanks but call me thick I’m still confused 😂. My HI is 16.6 and my course H/C is 17 , I assumed you just looked at the sheet in the clubhouse to find what your course H/C is and that’s what you play off.
		
Click to expand...

You play off your Course Handicap for handicapping purposes but your Playing Handicap (95% of your Course Handicap) for competition results.
As HDID is about competitions it will show 16 but your EHD portal will show 17 as it is about handicapping. I guess other ISVs do the same as HDID.
The sheet in the clubhouse will be from HDID (or your ISV system). The Course Handicap is the figure that you put on your card.


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## Rlburnside (Apr 29, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Our place has 2 charts on the wall by the first tee, first one gives you your course h/c from your handicap index for what tee you’re playing off, the 2nd lists what 95% of course h/c for single strokeplay comps is and what 85% of course h/c is for 4BBB comps is.

Takes 5 seconds and is very helpful, might be worth suggesting the 2nd list to your Club if they don’t have one.

I believe every Club has the first chart.
		
Click to expand...

That 2nd list is a good idea 👍


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## Rlburnside (Apr 29, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Our place has 2 charts on the wall by the first tee, first one gives you your course h/c from your handicap index for what tee you’re playing off, the 2nd lists what 95% of course h/c for single strokeplay comps is and what 85% of course h/c is for 4BBB comps is.

Takes 5 seconds and is very helpful, might be worth suggesting the 2nd list to your Club if they don’t have one.

I believe every Club has the first chart.
		
Click to expand...

So if two 17 h/cs roll up to play in a medal one looks at his course h/c and puts 17 on his card and the other one works out the 95% and puts his h/c down as 16


rulefan said:



			You play off your Course Handicap for handicapping purposes but your Playing Handicap (95% of your Course Handicap) for competition results.
As HDID is about competitions it will show 16 but your EHD portal will show 17 as it is about handicapping. I guess other ISVs do the same as HDID.
The sheet in the clubhouse will be from HDID (or your ISV system). The Course Handicap is the figure that you put on your card.
		
Click to expand...

So to follow on if a player has no knowledge of the 95% calculation he will not know his correct net score until the results are published.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 29, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			So if two 17 h/cs roll up to play in a medal one looks at his course h/c and puts 17 on his card and the other one works out the 95% and puts his h/c down as 16


So to follow on if a player has no knowledge of the 95% calculation he will not know his correct net score until the results are published.
		
Click to expand...

The Rules of Golf require the Course Handicap to be on the card. There is no requirement to have Playing Handicap on it.

If you ONLY put Playing Handicap on card, you risk DQ. I say risk, it all depends if competition secretary decides you have NOT put course handicap on card, or they have been lenient and assumed your Playing Handicap was meant to be your Course Handicap. However, if they do that, they'd need to reduce your course handicap to playing handicap on system, thus you would lose an extra shot to get an even lower playing handicap.

Simple


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## 2blue (Apr 29, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			So to follow on if a player has no knowledge of the 95% calculation he will not know his correct net score until the results are published.
		
Click to expand...

Just the same as if he doesnt know rules or Comp T & C's he risks DQ in very many ways. Players have a responsibility to wise-up if they play in Comps.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 30, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			So if two 17 h/cs roll up to play in a medal one looks at his course h/c and puts 17 on his card and the other one works out the 95% and puts his h/c down as 16


So to follow on if a player has no knowledge of the 95% calculation he will not know his correct net score until the results are published.
		
Click to expand...

Depends on the Card at the Club I suppose, we plan to have boxes with CH and PH on them, just like we have Handicap and Strokes Received boxes on our current (old) cards which we are using until they run out.


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## Rlburnside (Apr 30, 2021)

It all seems a confused mess to me, think I’ll just put my course h/c on card and forget about the  rest.


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## rulefan (Apr 30, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			It all seems a confused mess to me, think I’ll just put my course h/c on card and forget about the  rest.
		
Click to expand...

That's all that is required.


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## Rlburnside (Apr 30, 2021)

Our H/C were to be updated at 5am this morning for some strange reason now it’s saying it’s still pending🤷🏼‍♂️


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## rulefan (Apr 30, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			So if two 17 h/cs roll up to play in a medal one looks at his course h/c and puts 17 on his card and the other one works out the 95% and puts his h/c down as 16


So to follow on if a player has no knowledge of the 95% calculation he will not know his correct net score until the results are published.
		
Click to expand...

The score entry apps and PSIs tell him.


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## Rlburnside (Apr 30, 2021)

rulefan said:



			That's all that is required.
		
Click to expand...

Yes that’s what I thought but it would have been good to have a better understanding of the new system from the outset.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 30, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			It all seems a confused mess to me, think I’ll just put my course h/c on card and forget about the  rest.
		
Click to expand...

If you’re playing 4BBB it can be very useful to know which holes you and your partner are getting or losing shots at.

I’ll photograph the 2nd table at our Club tomorrow and post it so people can save it as a quick look up.


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## Rlburnside (Apr 30, 2021)

rulefan said:



			The score entry apps and PSIs tell him.
		
Click to expand...

At our club we have 2 sheets in clubhouse one Course Index one Course Handicap it seemed simple just look at the the Course Handicap to see what you play off. 

Now that results have been published most players are wondering why their h/cs have been decreased by one shot


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## Lord Tyrion (Apr 30, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Our place has 2 charts on the wall by the first tee, first one gives you your course h/c from your handicap index for what tee you’re playing off, the 2nd lists what 95% of course h/c for single strokeplay comps is and what 85% of course h/c is for 4BBB comps is.

Takes 5 seconds and is very helpful, might be worth suggesting the 2nd list to your Club if they don’t have one.

I believe every Club has the first chart.
		
Click to expand...

That is so simple and helpful. It also highlights to players that the 95% and 85% reductions exist. Fair play to your club 👏


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## rulefan (Apr 30, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			At our club we have 2 sheets in clubhouse one Course Index one Course Handicap it seemed simple just look at the the Course Handicap to see what you play off.

Now that results have been published most players are wondering why their h/cs have been decreased by one shot
		
Click to expand...

Simple. They haven't bothered to read the information the club has given them. Or the club hasn't bothered to send it out.


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## Rlburnside (Apr 30, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			If you’re playing 4BBB it can be very useful to know which holes you and your partner are getting or losing shots at.

I’ll photograph the 2nd table at our Club tomorrow and post it so people can save it as a quick look up.

Click to expand...

Thanks👍


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## Rlburnside (Apr 30, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Simple. They haven't bothered to read the information the club has given them. Or the club hasn't bothered to send it out.
		
Click to expand...

Yes your correct most will not have read all the information.


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## Bwgan (Apr 30, 2021)

All you need is the Golf England App, no sheets required. You just need to apply the correct % for the game you are playing


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 30, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			Thanks👍
		
Click to expand...

Happy to PM if required.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 30, 2021)

Bwgan said:



			All you need is the Golf England App, no sheets required. You just need to apply the correct % for the game you are playing
		
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A sheet on the Club noticeboard as a ready reckoner does no harm either and is an easy reference for the technophobe or those without the app.


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## Bwgan (Apr 30, 2021)

Definitely we have the same but we all make sure we check the app before we go out as your HI can move without you thinking it might (dropping a counting score etc.)


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## Old Skier (Apr 30, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			Yes that’s what I thought but it would have been good to have a better understanding of the new system from the outset.
		
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That was up to your HC committee as they were given plenty of info and tools to support members.


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## Old Skier (Apr 30, 2021)

Bwgan said:



			Definitely we have the same but we all make sure we check the app before we go out as your HI can move without you thinking it might (dropping a counting score etc.)
		
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It will only change if you have played a Q or entered a casual round so you will know when you should be checking for changes.


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## Bwgan (Apr 30, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			It will only change if you have played a Q or entered a casual round so you will know when you should be checking for changes.
		
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Yep agreed, played on Wednesday got 33 points didn't think much about it. Had a look before i went out last night for our 1st round 4BBB KO and i had dropped 0.1 and put me in the next band below losing a shot. Lucky i checked!


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## Swango1980 (Apr 30, 2021)

Well, I've been playing in competitions for 16 years now, and today we had our first ever player to score 7 points on a hole. Eagled a par 5 and had 3 shots on the hole.

It is interesting to see the course handicaps player have who have won competitions since we returned from lockdown. They are:

27 (36 points)
39 (47 points)
29 (Nett 64)
24 (Nett 62)
28 (Nett 66)
18 (Nett 70)
27 (Nett 68)
42 (44 points)
39 (46 points)

So, the average course handicap of competition winners in the 9 comps so far is 30.3 (an index of around 25.8), with some big scores. To put that in perspective, we have very few players at all with a course handicap over 30 (third last comp of 32 players there were none). Winners have generally been new members who handed in 3 bad cards for initial handicap, but are now much better than they were when they started. WHS seems to be incredibly generous awarding initial handicaps to higher handicap players. After all, it takes the best score differential and then subtracts 2.0. However, subtracting 2.0 whose best card was level par has a significantly higher impact on them than it does on subtracting 2.0 whose best card was 30 over. We have just given a first handicap to a chap whose 3 adjusted gross scores were 117, 123 and 113. His Index is 38.2, and course handicap 45. I dread to think what score he could get in competition once he practices a bit.

In my opinion, the system seems to be a bit of a joke when you talk about fairness. Most of the low handicappers at our club (by low, I mean anyone pretty much under 20) do not see fairness in any way, shape or form. I'd like to think it will settle down when these new player handicaps settle down. But, there will always be new players to the game. I would have thought the initial handicap awarded could be a bit more punishing the higher the scores a player submitted, rather than just a blanket -2.0 subtraction.


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## Troymcclure (Apr 30, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Happy to PM if required.

View attachment 36403

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Do the columns have headers saying when to apply said allowances? Isn’t matchplay (90%) more commonly played than medal/stableford (85%) in fourball scenarios?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 30, 2021)

Troymcclure said:



			Do the columns have headers saying when to apply said allowances? Isn’t matchplay (90%) more commonly played than medal/stableford (85%) in fourball scenarios?
		
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No. We have Competitions every weekend the Course is open, the Comp committee try to alternate, 1 Ind Strokeplay Comp and 1 4BBB Comp every weekend.

We only have 1 Matchplay comp in the fixture list, which is midweek, and the rules, table for that are on a seperate board.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 30, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Our place has 2 charts on the wall by the first tee, first one gives you your course h/c from your handicap index for what tee you’re playing off, the 2nd lists what 95% of course h/c for single strokeplay comps is and what 85% of course h/c is for 4BBB comps is.

Takes 5 seconds and is very helpful, might be worth suggesting the 2nd list to your Club if they don’t have one.

I believe every Club has the first chart.
		
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My club had the table of HI to CH conversion for all tees fixed to clubhouse wall as we pass to 1st tee.

I have also printed off the table of Handicap allowances for different formats that the club has on the website and it is in my bag for reference as and when required.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 30, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			It all seems a confused mess to me, think I’ll just put my course h/c on card and forget about the  rest.
		
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I think it might get harder or more confusing for me if I start playing lots of different formats at lots of different clubs.  At the moment that is not the case.  I play singles strokeplay and matchplay and 4BBB matchplay at my own club - and that’s it.  So I know all I need to know about my CHs and PHs.


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## jim8flog (Apr 30, 2021)

Rlburnside said:



			Now I’m confused we played our first medal and looked at the sheet to see my h/c which was 17 when the results were published I was allocated 16 h/c.

Now I know there is a 95% calculation in there but what about putting and signing for a 17 h/c on my card when the results say I was 16 h/c🤷🏼‍♂️
		
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 The current requirement is to have the correct Course Handicap on the card putting the Playing Handicap on the card is optional.  We use IG and the results always show Playing Handicap


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## jim8flog (Apr 30, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Depends on the Card at the Club I suppose, we plan to have boxes with CH and PH on them, just like we have Handicap and Strokes Received boxes on our current (old) cards which we are using until they run out.
		
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 The recommendation is to have a box for all 3 handicaps on the card.

It is possible that what is required on the card may change and it could become H.I.

Reference the latest directive from The R&A that says the National Authority can determine what handicap must be on the card to comply with 3.3b


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## Bdill93 (Apr 30, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Well, I've been playing in competitions for 16 years now, and today we had our first ever player to score 7 points on a hole. Eagled a par 5 and had 3 shots on the hole.

It is interesting to see the course handicaps player have who have won competitions since we returned from lockdown. They are:

27 (36 points)
39 (47 points)
29 (Nett 64)
24 (Nett 62)
28 (Nett 66)
18 (Nett 70)
27 (Nett 68)
42 (44 points)
39 (46 points)

So, the average course handicap of competition winners in the 9 comps so far is 30.3 (an index of around 25.8), with some big scores. To put that in perspective, we have very few players at all with a course handicap over 30 (third last comp of 32 players there were none). Winners have generally been new members who handed in 3 bad cards for initial handicap, but are now much better than they were when they started. WHS seems to be incredibly generous awarding initial handicaps to higher handicap players. After all, it takes the best score differential and then subtracts 2.0. However, subtracting 2.0 whose best card was level par has a significantly higher impact on them than it does on subtracting 2.0 whose best card was 30 over. We have just given a first handicap to a chap whose 3 adjusted gross scores were 117, 123 and 113. His Index is 38.2, and course handicap 45. I dread to think what score he could get in competition once he practices a bit.

In my opinion, the system seems to be a bit of a joke when you talk about fairness. Most of the low handicappers at our club (by low, I mean anyone pretty much under 20) do not see fairness in any way, shape or form. I'd like to think it will settle down when these new player handicaps settle down. But, there will always be new players to the game. I would have thought the initial handicap awarded could be a bit more punishing the higher the scores a player submitted, rather than just a blanket -2.0 subtraction.
		
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Not sure how feesible it is for your club - but maybe comps could be split into divisions? 

 A club by me have massive membership numbers and have done this - my club would never! - but it does stop a high handicapper running away with the comp with 42+ points.


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## jim8flog (Apr 30, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Well, I've been playing in competitions for 16 years now, and today we had our first ever player to score 7 points on a hole. Eagled a par 5 and had 3 shots on the hole.

It is interesting to see the course handicaps player have who have won competitions since we returned from lockdown. They are:

27 (36 points)
39 (47 points)
29 (Nett 64)
24 (Nett 62)
28 (Nett 66)
18 (Nett 70)
27 (Nett 68)
42 (44 points)
39 (46 points)

So, the average course handicap of competition winners in the 9 comps so far is 30.3 (an index of around 25.8), with some big scores. To put that in perspective, we have very few players at all with a course handicap over 30 (third last comp of 32 players there were none). Winners have generally been new members who handed in 3 bad cards for initial handicap, but are now much better than they were when they started. WHS seems to be incredibly generous awarding initial handicaps to higher handicap players. After all, it takes the best score differential and then subtracts 2.0. However, subtracting 2.0 whose best card was level par has a significantly higher impact on them than it does on subtracting 2.0 whose best card was 30 over. We have just given a first handicap to a chap whose 3 adjusted gross scores were 117, 123 and 113. His Index is 38.2, and course handicap 45. I dread to think what score he could get in competition once he practices a bit.

In my opinion, the system seems to be a bit of a joke when you talk about fairness. Most of the low handicappers at our club (by low, I mean anyone pretty much under 20) do not see fairness in any way, shape or form. I'd like to think it will settle down when these new player handicaps settle down. But, there will always be new players to the game. I would have thought the initial handicap awarded could be a bit more punishing the higher the scores a player submitted, rather than just a blanket -2.0 subtraction.
		
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Does your club not have Divisions?

Initial Handicaps prior to the WHS were approximately 90% of the best score so not a lot of difference to current system. The big advantage of the current system is that an improving player will get adjusted more quickly without the committee needing to do it. Pre WHS a lot of newly handicapped players tended to win where I play.


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## jim8flog (Apr 30, 2021)

Troymcclure said:



			Do the columns have headers saying when to apply said allowances? Isn’t matchplay (90%) more commonly played than medal/stableford (85%) in fourball scenarios?
		
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If you club buys the Eagle golf board it is all on there and is posted next to the slope board. Sadly my photo of said board is to big to post on here

There is a picture of it on their homepage

https://www.eagle.uk.com/


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## Swango1980 (Apr 30, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			Does your club not have Divisions?

Initial Handicaps prior to the WHS were approximately 90% of the best score so not a lot of difference to current system. The big advantage of the current system is that an improving player will get adjusted more quickly without the committee needing to do it. Pre WHS a lot of newly handicapped players tended to win where I play.
		
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We have divisions for monthly medals. However, it begs the question, if we need to set up divisions to protect lower handicappers from the big scores of high handicappers, how fair is the system? I always had a hunch that, for any system, maybe the initial handicap of any player should err on the lower side rather than higher side in comparison to the initial handicap of lower players.

We can't really have divisions for board competitions, because there is one main prize. It just is not fair to tell higher handicappers at the club that they are not eligible to win these, or at least have their full handicap allowance that WHS tells us is fair.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 30, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			We have divisions for monthly medals. However, it begs the question, if we need to set up divisions to protect lower handicappers from the big scores of high handicappers, how fair is the system? I always had a hunch that, for any system, maybe the initial handicap of any player should err on the lower side rather than higher side in comparison to the initial handicap of lower players.

We can't really have divisions for board competitions, because there is one main prize. It just is not fair to tell higher handicappers at the club that they are not eligible to win these, or at least have their full handicap allowance that WHS tells us is fair.
		
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Then why not have a handicap limit to win the Trophy?


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## IanM (Apr 30, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			first ever player to score 7 points on a hole. Eagled a par 5 and had 3 shots on the hole. 

Click to expand...

  All our prizes are in Divisions now anyway, and daft things like the above will increasingly get balloted out of the serious stuff.  Crazy scores from "new improving players" are nothing new, but they seem really crazy now.

At some point a player isn't ready to *enter a comp*, giving someone 54 to compensate isn't very sensible.  (note: I said *comp*, not play!)


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## Swango1980 (Apr 30, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Then why not have a handicap limit to win the Trophy?
		
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We could, but you are then alienating any members, who pay the same annual subscription, from winning big competitions. I know another local club did this, and it went down really badly. 

We are trying to build participation in competitions, so are trying to be as inclusive as possible. We want to be as welcoming to a 30+ handicapper as we are to a 0 handicapper. It is just that the system is incredibly generous to high handicappers. As per my previous post, all 9 competitions have been won by high handicappers, most with very good scores. I'm not bothered if it happens once in a while, and maybe it is just a massive coincidence that it has happened at our place for 9 out of 9 comps. But, would be interested to see what happens at other clubs


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## Bdill93 (Apr 30, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			We could, but you are then alienating any members, who pay the same annual subscription, from winning big competitions. I know another local club did this, and it went down really badly.

We are trying to build participation in competitions, so are trying to be as inclusive as possible. We want to be as welcoming to a 30+ handicapper as we are to a 0 handicapper. It is just that the system is incredibly generous to high handicappers. As per my previous post, all 9 competitions have been won by high handicappers, most with very good scores. I'm not bothered if it happens once in a while, and maybe it is just a massive coincidence that it has happened at our place for 9 out of 9 comps. But, would be interested to see what happens at other clubs
		
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First board comp 24/4 - 16 handicap win (medal) - tied with a 22 but won on countback. Third place off 15 beaten by 1. 
Midweek medal 21/4 - 27 (beat a 15 by 1)
Midweek medal 10/4 - 40!! ( won by 1 over a 19 handicap and a 7 hc by 3)

All other comps have been pairs/ team events etc so far, easing our way into the season.!


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## wjemather (Apr 30, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			We have divisions for monthly medals. However, it begs the question, if we need to set up divisions to protect lower handicappers from the big scores of high handicappers, how fair is the system? I always had a hunch that, for any system, maybe the initial handicap of any player should err on the lower side rather than higher side in comparison to the initial handicap of lower players.

We can't really have divisions for board competitions, because there is one main prize. It just is not fair to tell higher handicappers at the club that they are not eligible to win these, or at least have their full handicap allowance that WHS tells us is fair.
		
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We have always had divisions for all regular comps - with the number of divisions (1, 2, or 3) based on number of entries - aside from ensuring one outlandish score doesn't affect the whole comp, it ensures a spread of the prize vouchers across the handicap range.

I've found no real difference in the number of higher handicaps coming in with unbeatable scores. Less than 5 have triggered an ESR in more than twenty comps so far, which is comparable with how it was under CONGU UHS (even though we had a comp limit of 28 previously). Interestingly, a couple of the best scores have been from players with indexes below 18. There have been more players kneecapped with indexes far lower than their ability due to one (lucky) good score as they build up their records - some have found this quite disheartening.


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## Deleted member 16999 (Apr 30, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			We could, but you are then alienating any members, who pay the same annual subscription, from winning big competitions. I know another local club did this, and it went down really badly.

We are trying to build participation in competitions, so are trying to be as inclusive as possible. We want to be as welcoming to a 30+ handicapper as we are to a 0 handicapper. It is just that the system is incredibly generous to high handicappers. As per my previous post, all 9 competitions have been won by high handicappers, most with very good scores. I'm not bothered if it happens once in a while, and maybe it is just a massive coincidence that it has happened at our place for 9 out of 9 comps. But, would be interested to see what happens at other clubs
		
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We limit our board comps to max 18, however, we have had this in place pre-WHS. Run as 2 Comps in one and 2 “Winners” prizes given out.


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## Foxholer (Apr 30, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Well, I've been playing in competitions for 16 years now, and today we had our first ever player to score 7 points on a hole. Eagled a par 5 and had 3 shots on the hole.

It is interesting to see the course handicaps player have who have won competitions since we returned from lockdown. They are:

27 (36 points)
39 (47 points)
29 (Nett 64)
24 (Nett 62)
28 (Nett 66)
18 (Nett 70)
27 (Nett 68)
42 (44 points)
39 (46 points)

So, the average course handicap of competition winners in the 9 comps so far is 30.3 (an index of around 25.8), with some big scores. To put that in perspective, we have very few players at all with a course handicap over 30 (third last comp of 32 players there were none). Winners have generally been new members who handed in 3 bad cards for initial handicap, but are now much better than they were when they started. WHS seems to be incredibly generous awarding initial handicaps to higher handicap players. After all, it takes the best score differential and then subtracts 2.0. However, subtracting 2.0 whose best card was level par has a significantly higher impact on them than it does on subtracting 2.0 whose best card was 30 over. We have just given a first handicap to a chap whose 3 adjusted gross scores were 117, 123 and 113. His Index is 38.2, and course handicap 45. I dread to think what score he could get in competition once he practices a bit.

In my opinion, the system seems to be a bit of a joke when you talk about fairness. Most of the low handicappers at our club (by low, I mean anyone pretty much under 20) do not see fairness in any way, shape or form. I'd like to think it will settle down when these new player handicaps settle down. But, there will always be new players to the game. I would have thought the initial handicap awarded could be a bit more punishing the higher the scores a player submitted, rather than just a blanket -2.0 subtraction.
		
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It was always likely that high cappers were going to be favoured for a while - though likely not the same ones each time. I'm sure it'll settle down once the 'last 20' list is for WHS rounds only. 
And there's a few 'reasonable' scores in there that wouldn't be out of place as winning but not 'outstanding' ones in comps in 'the old' system.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Apr 30, 2021)

Bwgan said:



			Yep agreed, played on Wednesday got 33 points didn't think much about it. Had a look before i went out last night for our 1st round 4BBB KO and i had dropped 0.1 and put me in the next band below losing a shot. Lucky i checked! 

Click to expand...

We use IG - for all matchplay club comps I have entered I am are presented with a link to my matches and for any match a link to shots given/received for the match.  This is up to date and HI includes any Q comps played the previous day.  No need for me to work out anything.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 30, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			We limit our board comps to max 18, however, we have had this in place pre-WHS. Run as 2 Comps in one and 2 “Winners” prizes given out.
		
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It is interesting. Most of our competitive members are 0-20ish course handicap. We still have a fair few in the 20's, several who are regular competitors (and with "fair" handicaps). It seems harsh on them to ban them from winning a board comp just because new golfers can come in with ridiculously higher handicaps that can be highly improved on.

I'd love to see something like an initial handicap calculation that would do the following based on the players lowest score diff:

0-5: -1.0
6-10: -2.0
11-15: -3.0
16-20: -4.0
21-25: -5.0
26-30: -6.0
31-35: -7.0
36-40: -8.0
41-45: -9.0
46-54: -10.0

Those are just a general guide I've thought about quickly, but you get the picture. As the player starts handing in more cards, these subtractions become smaller, until they move towards their 20 scores. I just think it would really help protect the field much better from new golfers, whilst new golfers can still find their way much more fairly to their "appropriate" handicap as they submit more scores.


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## 2blue (Apr 30, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			We have divisions for monthly medals. However, it begs the question, if we need to set up divisions to protect lower handicappers from the big scores of high handicappers, how fair is the system? I always had a hunch that, for any system, maybe the initial handicap of any player should err on the lower side rather than higher side in comparison to the initial handicap of lower players.

We can't really have divisions for board competitions, because there is one main prize. It just is not fair to tell higher handicappers at the club that they are not eligible to win these, or at least have their full handicap allowance that WHS tells us is fair.
		
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We have Divisions for all Regular Comps & for 'Board Comps" but to win the latter you must have played 5 Comps in the past 12 months, however, if not can still win the money.


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## doublebogey7 (Apr 30, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Well, I've been playing in competitions for 16 years now, and today we had our first ever player to score 7 points on a hole. Eagled a par 5 and had 3 shots on the hole.

It is interesting to see the course handicaps player have who have won competitions since we returned from lockdown. They are:

27 (36 points)
39 (47 points)
29 (Nett 64)
24 (Nett 62)
28 (Nett 66)
18 (Nett 70)
27 (Nett 68)
42 (44 points)
39 (46 points)

So, the average course handicap of competition winners in the 9 comps so far is 30.3 (an index of around 25.8), with some big scores. To put that in perspective, we have very few players at all with a course handicap over 30 (third last comp of 32 players there were none). Winners have generally been new members who handed in 3 bad cards for initial handicap, but are now much better than they were when they started. WHS seems to be incredibly generous awarding initial handicaps to higher handicap players. After all, it takes the best score differential and then subtracts 2.0. However, subtracting 2.0 whose best card was level par has a significantly higher impact on them than it does on subtracting 2.0 whose best card was 30 over. We have just given a first handicap to a chap whose 3 adjusted gross scores were 117, 123 and 113. His Index is 38.2, and course handicap 45. I dread to think what score he could get in competition once he practices a bit.

In my opinion, the system seems to be a bit of a joke when you talk about fairness. Most of the low handicappers at our club (by low, I mean anyone pretty much under 20) do not see fairness in any way, shape or form. I'd like to think it will settle down when these new player handicaps settle down. But, there will always be new players to the game. I would have thought the initial handicap awarded could be a bit more punishing the higher the scores a player submitted, rather than just a blanket -2.0 subtraction.
		
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Unfortunately the introduction of WHS has co-incided with Covid and many more novices coming to the game.  Not at all a bad thing in itself but it has highlighted the problem with any handicap system as players new to the game will always improve quicker than those of us with significantly more experince.  I am less than convinced hat divisions are the best way to manage this issue as it would more severly impact those genuine old timers with higher handicaps.  You could cap competition ha


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## Swango1980 (Apr 30, 2021)

doublebogey7 said:



			Unfortunately the introduction of WHS has co-incided with Covid and many more novices coming to the game.  Not at all a bad thing in itself but it has highlighted the problem with any handicap system as players new to the game will always improve quicker than those of us with significantly more experince.  I am less than convinced hat divisions are the best way to manage this issue as it would more severly impact those genuine old timers with higher handicaps.  You could cap competition ha
		
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Yeah, it is why I think the idea in my post 2988 would help. It would provide another layer of protection from new golfers with higher handicaps, and diverge to a more appropriate handicap as they hand in more scores.


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## Old Skier (Apr 30, 2021)

I’m not sure why for normal Q comps that divisions aren’t used, ISVs provide the easy option for this, takes the sting out of it when a high handicapper comes in with a good score and gives the lower handicapped player the chance of being amongst the winners especially when you have reasonably sized fields.


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## rulefan (Apr 30, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Winners have generally been new members who handed in 3 bad cards for initial handicap, but are now much better than they were when they started. WHS seems to be incredibly generous awarding initial handicaps to higher handicap players. After all, it takes the best score differential and then subtracts 2.0. However, subtracting 2.0 whose best card was level par has a significantly higher impact on them than it does on subtracting 2.0 whose best card was 30 over. We have just given a first handicap to a chap whose 3 adjusted gross scores were 117, 123 and 113. His Index is 38.2, and course handicap 45. I dread to think what score he could get in competition once he practices a bit.

In my opinion, the system seems to be a bit of a joke when you talk about fairness. Most of the low handicappers at our club (by low, I mean anyone pretty much under 20) do not see fairness in any way, shape or form. I'd like to think it will settle down when these new player handicaps settle down. But, there will always be new players to the game. I would have thought the initial handicap awarded could be a bit more punishing the higher the scores a player submitted, rather than just a blanket -2.0 subtraction.
		
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Have you compared these initial WHS handicap allocations with what would have been allocated under CONGU?
Have you looked at 5.2a to see the difference in the effect of good scores in a player's early days?


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## Voyager EMH (Apr 30, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			We could, but you are then alienating any members, who pay the same annual subscription, from winning big competitions. I know another local club did this, and it went down really badly.

We are trying to build participation in competitions, so are trying to be as inclusive as possible. We want to be as welcoming to a 30+ handicapper as we are to a 0 handicapper. It is just that the system is incredibly generous to high handicappers. As per my previous post, all 9 competitions have been won by high handicappers, most with very good scores. I'm not bothered if it happens once in a while, and maybe it is just a massive coincidence that it has happened at our place for 9 out of 9 comps. *But, would be interested to see what happens at other clubs [*/QUOTE]
We've had four weekday weekly stablefords and one board comp medal.
Playing Handicaps are quoted for the winners.
41 points off 25
39 points off 12
40 points off 9
90 - 22 = 68
38 points off 4. (This was me yesterday, whoopee!)

So a fairly normal spread so far I think. Fair play to the 22 handicapper - he had two pars and a birdie 2 - nothing worse than a double bogey. In that medal I was the only single figure handicapper in the nett 68 to 71 range. In the nett 72 to 74 range, half were single figures. Over 150 entrants total.
		
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## Swango1980 (Apr 30, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Have you compared these initial WHS handicap allocations with what would have been allocated under CONGU?
Have you looked at 5.2a to see the difference in the effect of good scores in a player's early days?
		
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I hadn't time to go into that level of detail. But, I accept there was an issue before WHS, I just don't have the comparison to see which was worse.

However, we constantly talk about handicaps being there to promote fairness. Yet, pre and post WHS we have had clubs putting handicap limits on comps, breaking into divisions and having entry requirements to stop new golfers from winning unless they had played a minimum number of comps previously. All of those to stop high handicappers, especially new golfers, from winning an UNFAIR amount of competitions.

So, there is a huge flaw right there. Stands out like a sore thumb. As I mentioned in a previous post, there could be a way to largely mitigate this within the handicap system itself, by heavier subtraction on early indices that become less and less as the player hands in more and more scores.

As mentioned by someone previously, this had probably been exacerbated by the influx of new members after lockdowns. But, we will always have new golfers. So, until the handicapping authorities address this properly, we will always rely on  competition secretaries to apply all sorts of conditions on competitions to protect us against this problem


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## rulefan (Apr 30, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			As I mentioned in a previous post, there could be a way to largely mitigate this within the handicap system itself, by heavier subtraction on early indices that become less and less as the player hands in more and more scores.
		
Click to expand...

Isn't that what the table in 5.2a does? And if that isn't enough you can resort to 5.2a/2.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 30, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Isn't that what the table in 5.2a does? And if that isn't enough you can resort to 5.2a/2.
		
Click to expand...

No, as I mentioned in a previous post, Table 5.2a subtracts 2.0 from the best score when a player has submitted 3 scores. That is a big cut if the players best score is level par, and it is a very small cut if the players best score is 30 over par.

I think they should have graded that, so a smaller subtraction if the players best score provided them with a fairly small initial index, but a much bigger subtraction if they were initially to be given a high index. Surely 5.2a/2 is not relevant, as that looks to suggest INCREASING the players index if their next few scores are higher than their first 3.


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## Voyager EMH (Apr 30, 2021)

Very informative posts from rulefan and Swango 1980. Thank you both. There is clearly a lot more for me to look at and learn.


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## rulefan (Apr 30, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Surely 5.2a/2 is not relevant, as that looks to suggest INCREASING the players index if their next few scores are higher than their first 3.
		
Click to expand...

5.2a/2 is concerned with any scores that are '_Significantly Different Than Expected_'. They can be better or worse.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 30, 2021)

rulefan said:



			5.2a/2 is concerned with any scores that are '_Significantly Different Than Expected_'. They can be better or worse.
		
Click to expand...

If they are BETTER, the damage is already done. Handicap secretary could chop them, but they've already won the competition with a massive score. Besides, will many handicap secs give extra cuts beyond the systems Exceptional score reduction, and the fact it is supposed to adapt quickly to the good scores that come in, especially early on in a player's record?

My thoughts were the system could have protection against that BEFORE the new high handicapper wins with a massive score


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## rulefan (Apr 30, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			If they are BETTER, the damage is already done. Handicap secretary could chop them, but they've already won the competition with a massive score. Besides, will many handicap secs give extra cuts beyond the systems Exceptional score reduction, and the fact it is supposed to adapt quickly to the good scores that come in, especially early on in a player's record?

My thoughts were the system could have protection against that BEFORE the new high handicapper wins with a massive score
		
Click to expand...

A properly organised committee would be keeping an eye new players general play. Much the same as was specified by CONGU.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 30, 2021)

rulefan said:



			A properly organised committee would be keeping an eye new players general play. Much the same as was specified by CONGU.
		
Click to expand...

You are assuming these new members are submitting general play rounds for handicap before they play competitions. If they did that, there would probably be less of an issue because their handicap would likely start to drop BEFORE they win comps with massive scores.


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## IanM (Apr 30, 2021)

Just checking the Welsh version of the WHS App.

The Apple Version has a ribbon at the bottom and an Enter Score button.  No such ribbon or features appear on the Android version. 

Looks like I can create a scorecard and enter a score for ANY Welsh course, but no others.  That's unless I only have Android devices.

So, whats to stop me keying in a few bogus games this month to manipulate my handicap in whatever direction I wanted?    Worrying.  A handicap committee wouldn't be able to police this until it was too late. 

Equally, I am  playing in a soc in two weeks in England.   I can't key that in to the system,  so who does?  

Is this the same in other unions?


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## nyckuk (May 1, 2021)

IanM said:



			Just checking the Welsh version of the WHS App.

So, whats to stop me keying in a few bogus games this month to manipulate my handicap in whatever direction I wanted?    Worrying.  A handicap committee wouldn't be able to police this until it was too late.
		
Click to expand...

From my understanding you would have to get someone else to help you cheat ... You cant do it on your own , you select a playing partner at the beginning and they have to Verify your score via a notification on their App at the end of the round


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## Old Skier (May 1, 2021)

IanM said:



			Just checking the Welsh version of the WHS App.

The Apple Version has a ribbon at the bottom and an Enter Score button.  No such ribbon or features appear on the Android version.

Looks like I can create a scorecard and enter a score for ANY Welsh course, but no others.  That's unless I only have Android devices.

So, whats to stop me keying in a few bogus games this month to manipulate my handicap in whatever direction I wanted?    Worrying.  A handicap committee wouldn't be able to police this until it was too late.

Equally, I am  playing in a soc in two weeks in England.   I can't key that in to the system,  so who does? 

Is this the same in other unions?
		
Click to expand...

As stated, if you use the EG app you will require someone else to collaborate with you.
There was nothing to stop you doing the same under the old supplementary card system.


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## Swango1980 (May 1, 2021)

nyckuk said:



			From my understanding you would have to get someone else to help you cheat ... You cant do it on your own , you select a playing partner at the beginning and they have to Verify your score via a notification on their App at the end of the round
		
Click to expand...

Pretty sure you could do it if you submitted your score via howdidido, if your club are on Club V1. Yes, it asks for a marker but you can skip that step. Furthermore, you can randomly select a marker, that get no notification you did so, so they'd be none the wiser. Your score will get submitted regardless.

So, it seems it would be very easy to sit at home and enter scores if a person wished to do so.


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## IanM (May 1, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			As stated, if you use the EG app you will require someone else to collaborate with you.
There was nothing to stop you doing the same under the old supplementary card system.
		
Click to expand...

That's EG. Not WG.  I'll ask the pro this morning if he knows.  Looks like I can key any score on a Welsh course without anyone else having an input.


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## Fromtherough (May 1, 2021)

Apologies if this has previously been addressed. Is there a limit handicap indexes can go up? One of my regular playing partners only put his cards in last season - so does not yet have 20 qualifying cards. Since the return, we use the EG app to register every round - so even a knock counts. He doesn’t seem to have a buffer and he has received an increase when scoring 17 points on 9 holes. 

He’s seen his index increase by 4 shots already. He was already dangerous off 20, nevermind 24! It’s so frustrating for him - he’s working with the pro and trying to ingrained changes - but obviously these take time. I’m sure it will come down eventually. But... is there a limit to what it can increase by?


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## Wabinez (May 1, 2021)

Fromtherough said:



			Apologies if this has previously been addressed. Is there a limit handicap indexes can go up? One of my regular playing partners only put his cards in last season - so does not yet have 20 qualifying cards. Since the return, we use the EG app to register every round - so even a knock counts. He doesn’t seem to have a buffer and he has received an increase when scoring 17 points on 9 holes.

He’s seen his index increase by 4 shots already. He was already dangerous off 20, nevermind 24! It’s so frustrating for him - he’s working with the pro and trying to ingrained changes - but obviously these take time. I’m sure it will come down eventually. But... is there a limit to what it can increase by?
		
Click to expand...

until all 20 scores are in, I don’t think there are limits on up and down movement. That is when hard caps, soft caps etc come in.

bear in mind 17 points could be at a low slope and low course rating club, and when ‘de sloped’ it could equal increases.

just keep going until all 20 are in and see where it takes him


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## Wabinez (May 1, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Pretty sure you could do it if you submitted your score via howdidido, if your club are on Club V1. Yes, it asks for a marker but you can skip that step. Furthermore, you can randomly select a marker, that get no notification you did so, so they'd be none the wiser. Your score will get submitted regardless.

So, it seems it would be very easy to sit at home and enter scores if a person wished to do so.
		
Click to expand...

Does HDID not geo-locate? Should only be able to start a round when in the vicinity of the club


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## rulefan (May 1, 2021)

Wabinez said:



			Does HDID not geo-locate? Should only be able to start a round when in the vicinity of the club
		
Click to expand...

I don't know how far 'vicinity' stretches but my wife entered a comp and later returned scores at home. A mile from the club.


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## Rlburnside (May 1, 2021)

pauldj42 said:



			Happy to PM if required.

View attachment 36403

Click to expand...

Thanks for that it’s been helpful I’ve printed it out and will put it up in the clubhouse. 👍


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## Swango1980 (May 1, 2021)

Wabinez said:



			Does HDID not geo-locate? Should only be able to start a round when in the vicinity of the club
		
Click to expand...

No. Can sign in wherever you like. I sign in at home, then drive 6 miles to club


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## NearHull (May 1, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			No. Can sign in wherever you like. I sign in at home, then drive 6 miles to club
		
Click to expand...

I have written to the HowDidIDo owners ( Golf International , I think)  to ask if they had any plans to address the poor marker governance.  They passed the query to their Development Team to consider.  I pointed out that if they wish their App to be used in competitions post Covid restrictions, then they need to up their game and provide a similar marker score verification system to the MyEG App as used in General Play.


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## Old Skier (May 1, 2021)

NearHull said:



			I have written to the HowDidIDo owners ( Golf International , I think)  to ask if they had any plans to address the poor marker governance.  They passed the query to their Development Team to consider.  I pointed out that if they wish their App to be used in competitions post Covid restrictions, then they need to up their game and provide a similar marker score verification system to the MyEG App as used in General Play.
		
Click to expand...

Golf International has nothing to do with HDID. The HDID system requires the markers name and players Signature and can be checked by comp committees on the system. There seem to be a few on here that think there club members are just a load of cheats. Shame really.
A cheat will always find a way to cheat, the various apps are no more susceptible to cheating than a PSI Unit.


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## Swango1980 (May 1, 2021)

I doubt anyone thinks their members are a load of cheats. But, in a membership of hundreds, it would be naive to think one or 2 do not exist. We've all heard rumours, or even witnessed blatant cheating in past. So, it is not impossible that someone, at some point, may enter a fake score at home if they could.


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## IanM (May 1, 2021)

You're right. It's an annoying minority who cheat.  

Its unpleasant calling them out too


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## Old Skier (May 1, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			I doubt anyone thinks their members are a load of cheats. But, in a membership of hundreds, it would be naive to think one or 2 do not exist. We've all heard rumours, or even witnessed blatant cheating in past. So, it is not impossible that someone, at some point, may enter a fake score at home if they could.
		
Click to expand...

Theres nothing to stop them entering a bogus score on the PSI either or putting in a bogus card for the office to enter which is why I posted that a cheat will find a way to cheat. I get a list of all pre registered casual rounds the following day, do a quick check on the scores entered report, takes a couple of minutes. Like you I'm an unpaid sucker doing this but we have a system and as well as it can it works.


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## srixon 1 (May 1, 2021)

Crazyface said:



			Entered a supplementary score on howdidido yesterday.. selected yellow tees. It is almost immediately added to the EG golf app and by this morning was confirmed as a qualifying score against my handicap. How bluddy cool is that!!!!!!? Awesome 👍😎
		
Click to expand...

I had the same. However, a 77 was binned off with a 72 yet I still went up 0.2. I thought I had worked out how WHS worked, but until I have the full 20 scores in under the new system I am not going to try working it out anymore. Today’s 74 will replace an 82 so hopefully I shouldn’t go up again.


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## Swango1980 (May 1, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Theres nothing to stop them entering a bogus score on the PSI either or putting in a bogus card for the office to enter which is why I posted that a cheat will find a way to cheat. I get a list of all pre registered casual rounds the following day, do a quick check on the scores entered report, takes a couple of minutes. Like you I'm an unpaid sucker doing this but we have a system and as well as it can it works.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, plenty of ways to cheat. I was only specifically replying to the method of entering scores from home without ever going near the course.

They could cheat on PSI, but I'd at least give them credit for getting out of bed and travelling to club to do so


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## Deleted member 3432 (May 1, 2021)

Our pro less than impressed with WHS today.

At least 3 members playing today who have a home club in Scotland. EG and SG systems are incompatiible so back to taking photos of cards to send to home club and EG and SG are not talking to each other about this. R&A not interested either.

Never used to be a problem under the 'old' system, score would be on handicap record after comp was closed.

Working well so far then....


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## Crow (May 1, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Our pro less than impressed with WHS today.

At least 3 members playing today who have a home club in Scotland. *EG and SG systems are incompatiible so back to taking photos of cards to send to home club and EG and SG are not talking to each other about this. R&A not interested either.*

Never used to be a problem under the 'old' system, score would be on handicap record after comp was closed.

Working well so far then....

Click to expand...

That is just pathetic.


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## NearHull (May 1, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			Golf International has nothing to do with HDID. The HDID system requires the markers name and players Signature and can be checked by comp committees on the system. There seem to be a few on here that think there club members are just a load of cheats. Shame really.
A cheat will always find a way to cheat, the various apps are no more susceptible to cheating than a PSI Unit.
		
Click to expand...

My memory failed me, the company is Club Systems International.


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## jim8flog (May 1, 2021)

Fromtherough said:



			Apologies if this has previously been addressed. Is there a limit handicap indexes can go up? One of my regular playing partners only put his cards in last season - so does not yet have 20 qualifying cards. Since the return, we use the EG app to register every round - so even a knock counts. He doesn’t seem to have a buffer and he has received an increase when scoring 17 points on 9 holes.

He’s seen his index increase by 4 shots already. He was already dangerous off 20, nevermind 24! It’s so frustrating for him - he’s working with the pro and trying to ingrained changes - but obviously these take time. I’m sure it will come down eventually. But... is there a limit to what it can increase by?
		
Click to expand...

 As per Wabinez. When he has a full handicap record of 20 scores it will set a low handicap index and the increase in his handicap index cannot exceed 5 shots within a rolling 12 month period. When he has 16 scores on his record he should also see smaller fluctuations.


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## jim8flog (May 1, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Our pro less than impressed with WHS today.

At least 3 members playing today who have a home club in Scotland. EG and SG systems are incompatiible so back to taking photos of cards to send to home club and EG and SG are not talking to each other about this. R&A not interested either.

Never used to be a problem under the 'old' system, score would be on handicap record after comp was closed.

Working well so far then....

Click to expand...

R&A would not be interested because they have nothing to do with handicapping.

This should not be a long term problem because in the long run wherever you play in the world it should get back to your National Authority .


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## rosecott (May 1, 2021)

saving_par said:



			Our pro less than impressed with WHS today.

At least 3 members playing today who have a home club in Scotland. EG and SG systems are incompatiible so back to taking photos of cards to send to home club and EG and SG are not talking to each other about this. R&A not interested either.

Never used to be a problem under the 'old' system, score would be on handicap record after comp was closed.

Working well so far then....

Click to expand...

It's hard to believe that SGU courses cannot be accessed by EG for score input. On the EG WHS platform you can enter scores for courses in Wales and Ireland and also in Portugal, Australia, Turkey to name a few other countries.


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## GGTTH (May 1, 2021)

Is there anyway I can likely calculate what my handicap will be? Just put my last card in today. I know the course rating and slope. Thanks.


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## Deleted member 3432 (May 1, 2021)

rosecott said:



			It's hard to believe that SGU courses cannot be accessed by EG for score input. On the EG WHS platform you can enter scores for courses in Wales and Ireland and also in Portugal, Australia, Turkey to name a few other countries.
		
Click to expand...

EG and SG use a different algorithm apparently which is causing the problem.


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## williamalex1 (May 1, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			R&A would not be interested because they have nothing to do with handicapping.

This should not be a long term problem because in the long run wherever you play in the world it should get back to your National Authority .
		
Click to expand...

Even locally there's always been problems accessing results for certain away open comps, especially non qualifying team events.
Clubs are using different systems like I.G. HDID, Master Score Board plus a few others.
 But they can only be accessed if your club uses that particular system.
 Limited results are eventually published on the club page/site, if you can find them.
Results should be shared across all systems.


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## Deleted member 3432 (May 1, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			R&A would not be interested because they have nothing to do with handicapping.

This should not be a long term problem because in the long run wherever you play in the world it should get back to your National Authority .
		
Click to expand...

R&A should be interested as they were the driving force behind  it.
Should be out there kicking EG and SG's arse and telling them to sort it.


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## Old Skier (May 1, 2021)

saving_par said:



			R&A should be interested as they were the driving force behind  it.
Should be out there kicking EG and SG's arse and telling them to sort it.
		
Click to expand...

SGs arrse that need kicking as they are the ones that are playing hardball, as @rosecott posted, we have access to the majority of world wide courses.


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## Swango1980 (May 1, 2021)

GGTTH said:



			Is there anyway I can likely calculate what my handicap will be? Just put my last card in today. I know the course rating and slope. Thanks.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah. Do the following

Adjust your gross scores so that any really bad holes are rounded DOWN to double par (perhaps not required, only if you had a disaster)
Select your Lowest Adjusted Gross from those. Your Index will be:

Index = ((Lowest Adjusted Gross - Course Rating - PCC) x 113 / Slope) - 2.0

PCC is highly likely to be zero anyway


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## GGTTH (May 1, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Yeah. Do the following

Adjust your gross scores so that any really bad holes are rounded DOWN to double par (perhaps not required, only if you had a disaster)
Select your Lowest Adjusted Gross from those. Your Index will be:

Index = ((Lowest Adjusted Gross - Course Rating - PCC) x 113 / Slope) - 2.0

PCC is highly likely to be zero anyway
		
Click to expand...

Thank you!

Double par? Do you mean double bogey as I thought you couldn't technically get higher than a double bogey with WHS?

Maybe I'm wrong.


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## Swango1980 (May 1, 2021)

GGTTH said:



			Thank you!

Double par? Do you mean double bogey as I thought you couldn't technically get higher than a double bogey with WHS?

Maybe I'm wrong.
		
Click to expand...

No, double par for your initial handicap.

Once you have a handicap, any bad score is rounded down to NETT double bogey. But obviously this cannot be done until you get your first handicap.


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## GGTTH (May 1, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			No, double par for your initial handicap.

Once you have a handicap, any bad score is rounded down to NETT double bogey. But obviously this cannot be done until you get your first handicap.
		
Click to expand...

Gotcha! That makes sense.

I'm about to be pretty disappointed I think.


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## GGTTH (May 2, 2021)

So I can see my three scores on the Scottish Golf App, however they all say Pending. I presume this will correct itself overnight or will it take a bit longer?


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## Old Skier (May 2, 2021)

GGTTH said:



			So I can see my three scores on the Scottish Golf App, however they all say Pending. I presume this will correct itself overnight or will it take a bit longer?
		
Click to expand...

If it works like EG should be tonight


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## jim8flog (May 2, 2021)

GGTTH said:



			Is there anyway I can likely calculate what my handicap will be? Just put my last card in today. I know the course rating and slope. Thanks.
		
Click to expand...

 Add to what has already been said only use the best card.


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## IanM (May 2, 2021)

Our results from yesterday are in.   A guy who is famously dozy, "forgot" to key his score for the past two weeks, actually did this time. 

He qualified for a cut of the 2s-sweep with a 2 at the 9th. A tough par 4, from memory he made 5 or 6....   oh well, he's keyed it, getting the right numbers may take longer


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## rulefan (May 2, 2021)

GGTTH said:



			So I can see my three scores on the Scottish Golf App, however they all say Pending. I presume this will correct itself overnight or will it take a bit longer?
		
Click to expand...

Are you sure it's not your 'Low Index' that is pending. 
Your Handicap Index should have been determined overnight.


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## casuk (May 2, 2021)

GGTTH said:



			Gotcha! That makes sense.

I'm about to be pretty disappointed I think. 

Click to expand...

Aye get use to it with this game mate 🏌️🏌️😅


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## virtuocity (May 3, 2021)

Had a bad round last week. Didn’t knock off any of my best 8 scores. Went up 0.1

Had a bad round this week (consistent). Didn’t knock off any of my best 8 scores. No change to handicap.

Any ideas?

I miss the ‘threat’ of the 0.1 increase. If I’ve had a poor front nine, I can then adjust strategy and fight for buffer. Now, I’ve got little to play for.


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## IainP (May 3, 2021)

virtuocity said:



			Had a bad round last week. Didn’t knock off any of my best 8 scores. Went up 0.1

Had a bad round this week (consistent). Didn’t knock off any of my best 8 scores. No change to handicap.

Any ideas?

I miss the ‘threat’ of the 0.1 increase. If I’ve had a poor front nine, I can then adjust strategy and fight for buffer. Now, I’ve got little to play for.
		
Click to expand...

Whatever platform you are using should show what scores are counting etc.
For the first bad round you mentioned I suspect a counting round moved outside the last 20, so another started counting.

You (& I) just need to adjust your mindset to scoring the best you can to help the overall record


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## rulefan (May 3, 2021)

virtuocity said:



			Had a bad round last week. Didn’t knock off any of my best 8 scores. Went up 0.1

Had a bad round this week (consistent). Didn’t knock off any of my best 8 scores. No change to handicap.

Any ideas?
		
Click to expand...

Just check that they are in fact the same best 8. Calculate the average of the 8. Does that tally with your current Index.
If it doesn't contact whs.support@englandgolf.org




			I miss the ‘threat’ of the 0.1 increase. If I’ve had a poor front nine, I can then adjust strategy and fight for buffer. Now, I’ve got little to play for.
		
Click to expand...

Your target should be the oldest of your best 8.


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## jim8flog (May 3, 2021)

virtuocity said:



			Had a bad round last week. Didn’t knock off any of my best 8 scores. Went up 0.1

Had a bad round this week (consistent). Didn’t knock off any of my best 8 scores. No change to handicap.

Any ideas?

.
		
Click to expand...

You answered your own question in the second sentence.


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## rosecott (May 3, 2021)

virtuocity said:



			Had a bad round last week. Didn’t knock off any of my best 8 scores. Went up 0.1

Had a bad round this week (consistent). Didn’t knock off any of my best 8 scores. No change to handicap.

Any ideas?

I miss the ‘threat’ of the 0.1 increase. If I’ve had a poor front nine, I can then adjust strategy and fight for buffer. Now, I’ve got little to play for.
		
Click to expand...

"Soft Cap" in effect?


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## GGTTH (May 3, 2021)

21.8

Worse than I expected. I had been going along with the assumption that anything more than double bogeys don't count 

I'm definitely not a 21.8 handicapper thats for sure. Hopefully my next few cards will lower it a bit.


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## rosecott (May 3, 2021)

GGTTH said:



			21.8

Worse than I expected. I had been going along with the assumption that anything more than double bogeys don't count 

I'm definitely not a 21.8 handicapper thats for sure. Hopefully my next few cards will lower it a bit.
		
Click to expand...

The numbers do not lie.


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## GGTTH (May 3, 2021)

rosecott said:



			The numbers do not lie.
		
Click to expand...

No of course not. In this instance I just feel it's more a reflection of the cards I've put in rather than my actual ability. I can break 90 fairly regularly.  I could go out next medal and shoot a nett 65 or just as easily I could go and shoot a nett 75. Trying to find that on a consistent basis is going to be key for me.


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## rosecott (May 3, 2021)

GGTTH said:



			No of course not. In this instance I just feel it's more a reflection of the cards I've put in rather than my actual ability. I can break 90 fairly regularly.  I could go out next medal and shoot a nett 65 or just as easily I could go and shoot a nett 75. Trying to find that on a consistent basis is going to be key for me.
		
Click to expand...

The good news is that your HI will start to tumble immediately you start submitting scores that are consistently better than your first 3 cards for handicap.


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## Swango1980 (May 3, 2021)

rosecott said:



			The good news is that your HI will start to tumble immediately you start submitting scores that are consistently better than your first 3 cards for handicap.
		
Click to expand...

The other good news is that, if he submits these cards through playing in competitions and believes his handicap is truly a lot higher than it should be, he could well score some crazy good scores and obliterate the field. The benefits of being a new golfer


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## Liverpoolphil (May 3, 2021)

Well first scramble today - we had 4 shots , a low HC two mid and one high HC 

We went round 12 under plus our HC 

Only then to find out that there are multiple groups who have over 13 shots plus with one group getting 18 shots 😲

Would like to understand the rationale for changing the HC allowance

Can see a 48 winning


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## srixon 1 (May 3, 2021)

srixon 1 said:



			I had the same. However, a 77 was binned off with a 72 yet I still went up 0.2. I thought I had worked out how WHS worked, but until I have the full 20 scores in under the new system I am not going to try working it out anymore. Today’s 74 will replace an 82 so hopefully I shouldn’t go up again.
		
Click to expand...

having looked on the EG site the 77 was on a par 72 course in a county competition. It would seem that the standard scratch for that round went up, hence why it was a "better" score than my 72 off the yellow tees for my casual round which is why I went up 0.2. The sooner you get twenty rounds in under the new system will make things much easier to understand I'm sure.


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## wjemather (May 3, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well first scramble today - we had 4 shots , a low HC two mid and one high HC

We went round 12 under plus our HC

Only then to find out that there are multiple groups who have over 13 shots plus with one group getting 18 shots 😲

Would like to understand the rationale for changing the HC allowance

Can see a 48 winning
		
Click to expand...

As with all the changes, the aim is simply to give everyone as even a chance of winning as possible. 

I would always recommend trying to achieve a fairly balanced handicap spread across all teams in a scramble, but we have held one under WHS without doing that and it seemed to work perfectly well. The whole field was separated by 10 strokes, and the first three teams were split by just 0.2 - one of those teams was made up of 18+ handicappers, another of low single figure golfers (all under 5), and the other somewhere in the middle.


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## jim8flog (May 3, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Well first scramble today - we had 4 shots , a low HC two mid and one high HC

We went round 12 under plus our HC

Only then to find out that there are multiple groups who have over 13 shots plus with one group getting 18 shots 😲

Would like to understand the rationale for changing the HC allowance

Can see a 48 winning
		
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Only a 48. I have played in many a scramble where that sort of score would put you in with the also rans


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## Liverpoolphil (May 3, 2021)

wjemather said:



			As with all the changes, the aim is simply to give everyone as even a chance of winning as possible.

I would always recommend trying to achieve a fairly balanced handicap spread across all teams in a scramble, but we have held one under WHS without doing that and it seemed to work perfectly well. The whole field was separated by 10 strokes, and the first three teams were split by just 0.2 - one of those teams was made up of 18+ handicappers, another of low single figure golfers (all under 5), and the other somewhere in the middle.
		
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We have 2 a year - 

Last year - the whole field spread by 8 shots in the first , 8.1 shots the second 

The year before one was spread by 6 shots , the other by 9 shots 

Three years ago one was spread by 5.2 shots and one by 6.4 

Every scramble was won by 6 differently teams 

One was 4 cat 1 players , one was four players above 20 HC, the others a mix 

The best score was 52.1 

So far in this scramble we have 4 high handicaps have got 49 at the moment , the worst score is 64 - 15 shots difference so far.

We will just put in a maximum shot because a team getting 18 shots is ridiculous


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## rulefan (May 3, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			We will just put in a maximum shot because a team getting 18 shots is ridiculous
		
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So your analysis of scores covers a greater number of rounds that the USGA managed to do?


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## jim8flog (May 3, 2021)

GGTTH said:



			No of course not. In this instance I just feel it's more a reflection of the cards I've put in rather than my actual ability. I can break 90 fairly regularly.  I could go out next medal and shoot a nett 65 or just as easily I could go and shoot a nett 75. Trying to find that on a consistent basis is going to be key for me.
		
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 So you know how it works for future score

https://www.congu.co.uk/whs/

click on the link for rules

its on page 49


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## GGTTH (May 3, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			So you know how it works for future score

https://www.congu.co.uk/whs/

click on the link for rules

its on page 49
		
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Thanks for this Jim.


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## tobybarker (May 3, 2021)

It seems to me that the old system gauged your potential ability (if it all came good on one day) whereas the new system gauges how average you are.... So now you can win by being just average and getting your 36 or 37 points. That seems wrong to me.


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## Swango1980 (May 3, 2021)

tobybarker said:



			It seems to me that the old system gauged your potential ability (if it all came good on one day) whereas the new system gauges how average you are.... So now you can win by being just average and getting your 36 or 37 points. That seems wrong to me.
		
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Not quite. If that was the case, your index would be based on the average of ALL 20 rounds. However, it excludes the worst 12.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 3, 2021)

rulefan said:



			So your analysis of scores covers a greater number of rounds that the USGA managed to do?
		
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How many scramble round scores are sent to the governing bodies for them to judge whats the best handicap percentages to use.


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## tobybarker (May 3, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Not quite. If that was the case, your index would be based on the average of ALL 20 rounds. However, it excludes the worst 12.
		
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But what I said still stands to a degree. I prefer the old system because of this, not that it matters now


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## Swango1980 (May 3, 2021)

tobybarker said:



			But what I said still stands to a degree. I prefer the old system because of this, not that it matters now
		
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When analysing everyone's Congu handicap versus WHS Course Handicap at my club, they were reasonably similar. Except the higher your CONGU handicap, you tended to get 2 or 3 shots extra if you were a 25+ handicapper, maybe 1 or 2 extra if you were lower. Single figure handicappers tended to have a course handicap and CONGU handicap that were very similar. I guess the 95% Playing Handicap brings these a bit more in line again.

However, I think your original statement is a little confusing. On one hand you day you can win by being "average" with 36 or do points. However, how can that be. Surely someone else will play better than "average", thus getting more points?

In 10 or so comps so far at my place, the winning score has been 40+ points, and in several cases above 45 points


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## 3offTheTee (May 3, 2021)

just a quickie for you well versed guys: Our course Par 71 slope 133 Course 71.1 no change for PCC on Saturday.

The 2 winning scores in Cat 3 89-26 Nett 63 and 2nd 87-24 Nett 63. Imagine hve a 63 nett and coming 2nd and the winner was one of the last out.

Their HI have been reduced to 14.2 and 19.6 respectively. The player who came 2nd has been at the Club a while but unsure about the winner.


Anybody care to try and work out how the reductions have been calculated please?

Incidentally there is now a system in place before a player can win a Comp. They have to have 12 scores on WHS.


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## Swango1980 (May 3, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			just a quickie for you well versed guys: Our course Par 71 slope 133 Course 71.1 no change for PCC on Saturday.

The 2 winning scores in Cat 3 89-26 Nett 63 and 2nd 87-24 Nett 63. Imagine hve a 63 nett and coming 2nd and the winner was one of the last out.

Their HI have been reduced to 14.2 and 19.6 respectively. The player who came 2nd has been at the Club a while but unsure about the winner.


Anybody care to try and work out how the reductions have been calculated please?

Incidentally there is now a system in place before a player can win a Comp. They have to have 12 scores on WHS.
		
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Impossible to explain definitively. Firstly, it depends on whether the players already had 20 scores on their record.

If not, the determination of Index is very dependent on the number of rounds they have played, and how many of their best scores are used.

If they had already played 20 rounds, it depends what score they were losing, not just the score that was added (which will clearly make their top 8).

With massive changes to Index, I suspect they had very few scores in their record, so Index can fluctuate highly from score to score. Either that, or handicap sec manually made adjustments, but it would take a brave handicap sec to go beyond the systems calcs, especially in these early days


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## rulefan (May 3, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many scramble round scores are sent to the governing bodies for them to judge whats the best handicap percentages to use.
		
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Probably more than you have access to . But I would suggest they have an algorithm which crunches par scores for every permutation of handicap combination.


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## Liverpoolphil (May 3, 2021)

rulefan said:



			Probably more than you have access to . But I would suggest they have an algorithm which crunches par scores for every permutation of handicap combination.
		
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How do the access clubs scramble scores when it never used to be a recognised format and scores were never submitted into the governing bodies ? 

So they would use made up data as opposed to the actual scores being made by the players. Sounds about right


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## ger147 (May 3, 2021)

This is an absolute belter from last weekend...


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## Imurg (May 3, 2021)

ger147 said:



			This is an absolute belter from last weekend...

View attachment 36452

Click to expand...

Oh
My
God....
There's an accurate handicap for you....


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## Liverpoolphil (May 3, 2021)

ger147 said:



			This is an absolute belter from last weekend...

View attachment 36452

Click to expand...

😲

Surely not - that mental , what’s the par for the course as the rest of the scores are pretty low as well. 

A local club has had a 40 HC get 53 points 😂😂


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## Jimaroid (May 3, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many scramble round scores are sent to the governing bodies for them to judge whats the best handicap percentages to use.
		
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I’d love to see a statistical analysis of scrambles when, in my experience, you can’t even get a team of 4 to agree which scramble format it is that they’re playing.


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## HampshireHog (May 3, 2021)

ger147 said:



			This is an absolute belter from last weekend...
		
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Must have had a driver fitting.  What are they now playing off?


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## ger147 (May 3, 2021)

Imurg said:



			Oh
My
God....
There's an accurate handicap for you....
		
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He'll be ragin', took 7 at the 14th, very costly!! 🤣🤣


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## williamalex1 (May 3, 2021)

Liverpoolphil said:



			How many scramble round scores are sent to the governing bodies for them to judge whats the best handicap percentages to use.
		
Click to expand...


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## ger147 (May 3, 2021)

I suspect the score may be an error as there are two Alexander Watson's at the club and the guy with the 54 handicap is still showing as off 54.

So perhaps one Alexander Watson signed in as the other by mistake. Hard to believe a guy off 54 wouldn't have a net 37 as one of his best 8 scores!! 🤣🤣🤣


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## Old Skier (May 3, 2021)

ger147 said:



			I suspect the score may be an error as there are two Alexander Watson's at the club and the guy with the 54 handicap is still showing as off 54.

So perhaps one Alexander Watson signed in as the other by mistake. Hard to believe a guy off 54 wouldn't have a net 37 as one of his best 8 scores!! 🤣🤣🤣
		
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Or they put their nett scores in


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## casuk (May 4, 2021)

ger147 said:



			This is an absolute belter from last weekend...

View attachment 36452

Click to expand...

IV saw this on 2 different sites now guys becoming infamous


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## ger147 (May 4, 2021)

casuk said:



			IV saw this on 2 different sites now guys becoming infamous
		
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Have seen 2 explanations so far. One is 2 guys with the same name and lower guy signed in as the 54 guy. The other is he is currently playing for his handicap i.e. it's one of his 3 cards but to allow him to book into a comp on HDID, the handicap secretary gave him a 54 handicap.

Not sure if any of that is accurate but as you say, have seen it posted/discussed in a few places now.


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## Swango1980 (May 4, 2021)

ger147 said:



			Have seen 2 explanations so far. One is 2 guys with the same name and lower guy signed in as the 54 guy. The other is he is currently playing for his handicap i.e. it's one of his 3 cards but to allow him to book into a comp on HDID, the handicap secretary gave him a 54 handicap.

Not sure if any of that is accurate but as you say, have seen it posted/discussed in a few places now.
		
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haha, I think the handicap secretary may have a few tough questions to ask if he decided to give him a starting handicap of 54. If that is true, I don't think he will do that again.


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## jim8flog (May 4, 2021)

ger147 said:



			This is an absolute belter from last weekend...

View attachment 36452

Click to expand...


I remember playing a comp under the UHS where I scored a nett 11 under and was in 5th place. 2 players with nett 14 under one one 13 and one 12.

Exceptional nett scores are nothing new but nett 37 that is something different.


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## jim8flog (May 4, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			haha, I think the handicap secretary may have a few tough questions to ask if he decided to give him a starting handicap of 54. If that is true, I don't think he will do that again.
		
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 These days the Handicap Secretary does not do  a lot for initial handicap it's all done by the computer and they would have to have a very good reason for not accepting what the calculations tell them. The days of picking a figure out of the air have long gone.

 Nothing wrong with adjusting based upon later results though.


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## Swango1980 (May 4, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			These days the Handicap Secretary does not do  a lot for initial handicap it's all done by the computer and they would have to have a very good reason for not accepting what the calculations tell them. The days of picking a figure out of the air have long gone.

Nothing wrong with adjusting based upon later results though.
		
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Indeed. But, I mean his decision to give an Index of 54 BEFORE those initial 3 cards are in.

I understand what he did. Club V1 only seems to allow members with handicaps to enter a competition field, so he had made one up. I wish there was an option to sign in members without a handicap. Clearly they can't appear on results, but just to get them officially booked in so they can be included in draw, and use their score towards their first 3 cards.


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## MB200 (May 4, 2021)

Hi all, 

Quick question for you. I hold a Handicap Index through England Golf, if I go and play at a Scottish golf course how do I enter that card as not sure it can be done through the EG golf app? Do I just have to hand it in to my home club?

Thanks!


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## wjemather (May 4, 2021)

MB200 said:



			Hi all,

Quick question for you. I hold a Handicap Index through England Golf, if I go and play at a Scottish golf course how do I enter that card as not sure it can be done through the EG golf app? Do I just have to hand it in to my home club?

Thanks!
		
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Yes, return your score to the handicap committee at your home club as soon as reasonably practical; this could be by text or email, or physical card, depending on their procedures.


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## 3offTheTee (May 4, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			haha, I think the handicap secretary may have a few tough questions to ask if he decided to give him a starting handicap of 54. If that is true, I don't think he will do that again.
		
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Why did he not have 95%? He may then only had a nett 40!!!


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## Swango1980 (May 4, 2021)

3offTheTee said:



			Why did he not have 95%? He may then only had a nett 40!!!
		
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I tried to work out what by best ever score would have been had I been given a Handicap Index of 54 at my club, off whites. It would give me a course handicap of 64, playing handicap of 61.

Final score would be nett 7, or 99 points. I wonder what the world record is


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## rosecott (May 4, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Indeed. But, I mean his decision to give an Index of 54 BEFORE those initial 3 cards are in.

I understand what he did. Club V1 only seems to allow members with handicaps to enter a competition field, so he had made one up. I wish there was an option to sign in members without a handicap. Clearly they can't appear on results, but just to get them officially booked in so they can be included in draw, and use their score towards their first 3 cards.
		
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Are you sure you are not missing a tick box somewhere? Handicapmaster has a tick box for comp draws which allows inclusion of players without handicaps.


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## Old Skier (May 4, 2021)

rosecott said:



			Are you sure you are not missing a tick box somewhere? Handicapmaster has a tick box for comp draws which allows inclusion of players without handicaps.
		
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He’s a V1 user


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## IainP (May 4, 2021)

ger147 said:



			This is an absolute belter from last weekend...

View attachment 36452

Click to expand...

Know doubts have been raised in later posts, on face value thankfully there were divisions in play. Although imagine the 17 'capper was still miffed!


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## rosecott (May 4, 2021)

Old Skier said:



			He’s a V1 user
		
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I know he is but I only learnt about the said tick box when Handicapmaster told me about it in response to a query - hadn't noticed it until they told me about it.


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## Old Skier (May 4, 2021)

rosecott said:



			I know he is but I only learnt about the said tick box when Handicapmaster told me about it in response to a query - hadn't noticed it until they told me about it.
		
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Can’t find one in V1


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## Swango1980 (May 4, 2021)

rosecott said:



			I know he is but I only learnt about the said tick box when Handicapmaster told me about it in response to a query - hadn't noticed it until they told me about it.
		
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Doesn't exist in V1. I've already e-mailed support to confirm, and requested they add it in future if possible.


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## abjectplop (May 5, 2021)

When calculating percentage for playing handicap is it the percentage of the actual course handicap, e.g. 95% of 18 (which gives 17 shots), or of the course handicap before it's rounded, e.g. 95% of 18.44444 (which gives 18 shots)?

I'm in Scotland if it makes a difference?


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## Swango1980 (May 5, 2021)

abjectplop said:



			When calculating percentage for playing handicap is it the percentage of the actual course handicap, e.g. 95% of 18 (which gives 17 shots), or of the course handicap before it's rounded, e.g. 95% of 18.44444 (which gives 18 shots)?

I'm in Scotland if it makes a difference?
		
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If you are in Scotland, Use the unrounded Course Handicap (the decimal). If in England, Use the rounded course handicap (the whole number)


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## wjemather (May 5, 2021)

abjectplop said:



			When calculating percentage for playing handicap is it the percentage of the actual course handicap, e.g. 95% of 18 (which gives 17 shots), or of the course handicap before it's rounded, e.g. 95% of 18.44444 (which gives 18 shots)?

I'm in Scotland if it makes a difference?
		
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The Playing Handicap is calculated from the unrounded Course Handicap in Scotland, and the rounded Course Handicap in the rest of GB&I.


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## GGTTH (May 5, 2021)

Okay so my first three cards gave me a handicap of 21.8. I shot 95 gross (nett 72, +2) today in a comp, so am I right in thinking my handicap will go down ever so slightly since I've just submitted my 4th card which is now my best one?

Probably been asked a ton but not trawling through 156 pages    Not too worried will just let the system do it's thing but was curious.


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## GGTTH (May 5, 2021)

Nevermind worked it out.

So it'll be a .1 increase. I thought anything over double bogey didn't count once you had your handicap. Or will this be calculated overnight and therefore it might actually be a small decrease?

On a positive note, howdidido app gets a thumbs up from me, simple and easy to use.


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## jim8flog (May 5, 2021)

GGTTH said:



			Nevermind worked it out.

So it'll be a .1 increase. I thought anything over double bogey didn't count once you had your handicap. Or will this be calculated overnight and therefore it might actually be a small decrease?

On a positive note, howdidido app gets a thumbs up from me, simple and easy to use.
		
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Any score worse than *nett double bogey *(zero points in Stableford) is reduced to Nett double bogey for handicap purposes. If it is the same as England golf when you look at the card on the Scotland Golf website such scores are shown as black with 2 white lined boxes and the adjusted score in brackets.


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## rulefan (May 5, 2021)

GGTTH said:



			Okay so my first three cards gave me a handicap of 21.8. I shot 95 gross (nett 72, +2) today in a comp, so am I right in thinking my handicap will go down ever so slightly since I've just submitted my 4th card which is now my best one?

Probably been asked a ton but not trawling through 156 pages    Not too worried will just let the system do it's thing but was curious.
		
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If you have 4 scores your Index will be the lowest Score Differential minus 1.0.
SD = (113 / Slope) x (Gross - Course Rating - PCC)
See page 49


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