# Rake Placement in Bunker - Reader - I pulled up a FC



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2019)

In our most important Open comp of the year.  10th hole of morning round one of my FCs (a fellow member) played out of a front greenside bunker; tidied the bunker up; then dropped the rake in the bunker so that it ran along the fairway-side inside edge of the bunker.  That edge is a sheer 18" revetted face.  A ball rolling into the bunker along a 6ft stretch would be trapped very close to the revetted face and no shot towards the green (never mind the flag) would have been possible.

I lightly, and in as friendly a way as I could, mentioned to that FC that I wouldn''t want to be the player whose ball rolls into the bunker and gets trapped by the rake.  He looked at me a without speaking moved it to where it should be placed (ask requested by the club).  He did not speak to me for a couple of holes and I think was in a grump with me for rest of round.

Was I right to speak as I did.


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## patricks148 (Jun 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In our most important Open comp of the year.  10th hole of morning round one of my FCs (a fellow member) played out of a front greenside bunker; tidied the bunker up; then dropped the rake in the bunker so that it ran along the fairway-side inside edge of the bunker.  That edge is a sheer 18" revetted face.  A ball rolling into the bunker along a 6ft stretch would be trapped very close to the revetted face and no shot towards the green (never mind the flag) would have been possible.

I lightly, and in as friendly a way as I could, mentioned to that FC that I wouldn''t want to be the player whose ball rolls into the bunker and gets trapped by the rake.  He looked at me a without speaking moved it to where it should be placed (ask requested by the club).  He did not speak to me for a couple of holes and I think was in a grump with me for rest of round.

Was I right to speak as I did.
		
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yes


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## Orikoru (Jun 24, 2019)

I don't think there's any winner here. You were right about the rake placement, but nobody likes being told off.


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## Lord Tyrion (Jun 24, 2019)

If the club specifically ask then yes. Also, the description you gave of the location and how you pointed it out, yes. All done in a polite way. 

If I had laid the rake like and someone had made that comment I would have moved it, felt a bit foolish, made a light hearted comment to cover my embarrassment and then moved on. The fact they took the hump says more about them.


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## duncan mackie (Jun 24, 2019)

Yes - regardless of anything else.

Even did it in the best manner IMO


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## Robster59 (Jun 24, 2019)

Yes, you were fine.  If he gets in the hump about something as trivial as that then that's more fool him.


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## IanM (Jun 24, 2019)

He clearly knew the "standing orders."


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## rulefan (Jun 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That edge is a sheer 18" revetted face.  A ball rolling into the bunker along a 6ft stretch would be trapped very close to the revetted face and no shot towards the green (never mind the flag) would have been possible.
		
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Exactly why the R&A/USGA make their recommendation.


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## jim8flog (Jun 24, 2019)

Yes, absolutely.

It cost me at least one shot and possibly two in a comp last week because somebody did exactly that. The annoying bit was that I was deliberately playing at the bunker, as my best option, with the intention of running the ball through it and the rake could not bee seen from where I was playing.


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## jim8flog (Jun 24, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Oof , mandated rake direction placement.  Just leave it outside.
		
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That increases the green keepers work as they have to get off the mowers to move them before they can continue.


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## chrisd (Jun 24, 2019)

Absolutely right to


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## rudebhoy (Jun 24, 2019)

I was playing in a comp last week, and was about 30 yards out. There were bunkers on either side of the green, but I had a fairly clear path to the flag. 

I hit a little bump shot, it was going a bit closer to one of the bunkers than I had intended, but was going to end up on the green. well it was until it hit the metal head of a rake which someone had left sticking out of the bunker, with the handle in the bunker!

It then went off at a right angle, and ended up in the bunker virtually unplayable. 

To say I was pee'd off is an understatement. I should have noticed it before I played, but I didn't.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2019)

OMG - it seems that everyone agrees with me and the action I took  

We are completely rebuilding all of our bunkers and we are building them in a way that sees all sides revetted and near vertical - and obviously that includes the fairway-side of every bunker.  In the past I maybe wouldn't have said anything - and on that specific bunker it would most likely not have matter as a ball entering from fairway side would have run away from the edge, there being only a small drop in.  But every rebuilt bunker now has near vertical sides - -with smoothed sand run up from the inside of the bunker to the edge so that a ball dropping into a bunker runs down the slope of sand away from the edge into the open space of the bunker.  The rake would have stopped that design element having it's effect.  And so I said what I said. 

Maybe in all such things - especially slow play - we should not be afraid of picking them up at the time with our friends, PPs and FCs.  We should be bold to be honest.


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## ScienceBoy (Jun 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Was I right to speak as I did.
		
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Yes, why wouldnâ€™t anyone if they noticed something like that?


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## Jacko_G (Jun 24, 2019)

Nope.

There are no rules regarding where you can/can't leave a rake.

It can be left inside/outside/half in half out and nothing is more "right" than the other.


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## rulefan (Jun 24, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Nope.

There are no rules regarding where you can/can't leave a rake.

It can be left inside/outside/half in half out and nothing is more "right" than the other.
		
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Have you read the R&A/USGA reasoning?

A rake left too close outside will have 50/50 chance of deflecting a ball into a bunker. At the correct distance, the adds drop way significantly.
A rake left in the middle has virtually no chance of diverting the ball outside.
A rake left as in the OP has a high chance of causing a penalty stroke in addition..


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## Backache (Jun 24, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Nope.

There are no rules regarding where you can/can't leave a rake.

It can be left inside/outside/half in half out and nothing is more "right" than the other.
		
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Just because there are no rules that does not mean there is not guidance and whereas there is no single 'right way' . Some ways are most certainly a potential hindrance to other competitors and are considered by many as 'wrong ways', etiquette and manners rather than rules.


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## Jacko_G (Jun 24, 2019)

rulefan said:



			Have you read the R&A/USGA reasoning?

A rake left too close outside will have 50/50 chance of deflecting a ball into a bunker. At the correct distance, the adds drop way significantly.
A rake left in the middle has virtually no chance of diverting the ball outside.
A rake left as in the OP has a high chance of causing a penalty stroke in addition..
		
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Q. Is it a rule???

A. No.


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## Jacko_G (Jun 24, 2019)

Backache said:



			Just because there are no rules that does not mean there is not guidance and whereas there is no single 'right way' . Some ways are most certainly a potential hindrance to other competitors and are considered by many as 'wrong ways', etiquette and manners rather than rules.
		
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And the right way is a matter of opinion. In damp conditions the centre of the bunker is always the first place to flood.  

Resulting in a drop and plugged lie in the bunker. Great.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2019)

ScienceBoy said:



			Yes, why wouldnâ€™t anyone if they noticed something like that?
		
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I agree with you - but they don't.

On just about every hole for 36 hols I was putting rakes in the correct place (without slowly our play down...) - and the example I mention was the one where my FC was at fault - there were many other similar situations where a previous player had put the rake 'just so' and clearly no-one had pulled him up - and where no-one in any following group sorted the incorrect placement.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 24, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			And the right way is a matter of opinion. In damp conditions the centre of the bunker is always the first place to flood. 

Resulting in a drop and plugged lie in the bunker. Great.
		
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Not true with our newly rebuilt bunkers - they drain very quickly and very successfully.  

And rake position is not a matter of opinion.  Our club requests that rakes are placed in the centre of the bunker pointing to the flag.  Whether you agree with that or not is irrelevant - it is what we ask, and most members try and adhere to that request. In that way any interference from a rake in deflecting or stopping a ball occurs consistently across all holes and all bunkers.

The same issue now arises with us when rakes are placed just inside the bunker with rake head resting close to the bunker (rear) face with handle sticking out - almost upright given the steep and quite deep face.  A ball going into the bunker at that point would both be stopped by the rake head from rolling into the centre of the bunker, and would be trapped against the back edge and unplayable towards the green.


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## Backache (Jun 24, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			And the right way is a matter of opinion. In damp conditions the centre of the bunker is always the first place to flood. 

Resulting in a drop and plugged lie in the bunker. Great.
		
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I've yet to see a ball lying on a rake properly placed, if it's on the sand held up by the rake you place the ball in its original spot rather than dropping it.


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## KenL (Jun 24, 2019)

jim8flog said:



			That increases the green keepers work as they have to get off the mowers to move them before they can continue.
		
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So what?


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## Jacko_G (Jun 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not true with our newly rebuilt bunkers - they drain very quickly and very successfully.  

And rake position is not a matter of opinion.  Our club requests that rakes are placed in the centre of the bunker pointing to the flag.  Whether you agree with that or not is irrelevant - it is what we ask, and most members try and adhere to that request. In that way any interference from a rake in deflecting or stopping a ball occurs consistently across all holes and all bunkers.

The same issue now arises with us when rakes are placed just inside the bunker with rake head resting close to the bunker (rear) face with handle sticking out - almost upright given the steep and quite deep face.  A ball going into the bunker at that point would both be stopped by the rake head from rolling into the centre of the bunker, and would be trapped against the back edge and unplayable towards the green.
		
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Guess that depends on how well maintained and constructed the bunkers are and the age. 

Your club can have rules all they like but the bottom line is they're not enforceable and are not governed by the rules of golf. I personally prefer takes to be left outside the bunker but will concede that appears to be a dying view.


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## Jacko_G (Jun 24, 2019)

Backache said:



			I've yet to see a ball lying on a rake properly placed, if it's on the sand held up by the rake you place the ball in its original spot rather than dropping it.
		
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I've been up against plenty of takes in my time.


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## jim8flog (Jun 24, 2019)

KenL said:



			So what?
		
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Say 50-60  bunkers on a course and 2 minutes getting off the mower moving the rake and getting back on the mower. That's nearly two hours of a green keepers time spent just picking up and moving rakes several days a week.


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## Bunkermagnet (Jun 24, 2019)

A bunker is a hazard.....I dont get the arguement about ball and rakes in a hazard.
We have a club rule all rakes to be left in the bunker, no further than just in the bunker. You get some non members who leave them half in half out, but the rakes swiftly put into the bunker by other members.


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## larmen (Jun 24, 2019)

Maybe there should be a rule, just to get some consistency into it and make it punishable when ignored. Just like not raking should get a penalty.

I got taught rake head in the bunker, rake pointing outside towards the tee.


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## robinthehood (Jun 24, 2019)

jim8flog said:



			Say 50-60  bunkers on a course and 2 minutes getting off the mower moving the rake and getting back on the mower. That's nearly two hours of a green keepers time spent just picking up and moving rakes several days a week.
		
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Te reason for having rakes in the bunker pointing in a specific direction is 100% cosmetic. No other reason


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## rulefan (Jun 24, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Q. Is it a rule???

A. No.
		
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It is a strong recommendation.


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## Jacko_G (Jun 24, 2019)

rulefan said:



			It is a strong recommendation.
		
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Thanks I'll bare it in mind.


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## Wolf (Jun 24, 2019)

In all honesty what would the club do realistically to a member or guest that didn't put the rakes in the bunker as requested. Seeing as it's not a rule and cannot be enforced as such. 

I'm actually genuinely interested, because it seems more for aesthetics than much else. I was also always taught rake head in and handle out to make it easier to get to when entering a bunker.


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## backwoodsman (Jun 24, 2019)

How about we all carry our own rake? Then we don't have to leave any lying about anywhere?


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## rulefan (Jun 24, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Our club requests that rakes are placed in the centre of the bunker pointing to the flag.
		
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How do you get it to the centre of a large bunker without walking into and out of it.
If it is thrown in, it could cause a large rut in the middle worse than an unraked footprint.

Incidentally, some years ago my club ruled that all rakes be left out, 1 rake length from the the bunker. There were no major objections, just a gradual ignoring the rule (mainly the 1 rake length). The effect was everyone did their own thing.
 A new committee have ruled they should now be in. Result with half a season gone - everyone does their own thing.


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## patricks148 (Jun 24, 2019)

Wolf said:



			In all honesty what would the club do realistically to a member or guest that didn't put the rakes in the bunker as requested. Seeing as it's not a rule and cannot be enforced as such.

I'm actually genuinely interested, because it seems more for aesthetics than much else. I was also always taught rake head in and handle out to make it easier to get to when entering a bunker.
		
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might not make much difference in a shallow parkland bunker, but makes a big difference in a deep reveted pot bunker


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## rulefan (Jun 24, 2019)

backwoodsman said:



			How about we all carry our own rake? Then we don't have to leave any lying about anywhere?
		
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Internal club regulations. Suspension of certain playing rights - quire common for non rules offences.


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## backwoodsman (Jun 25, 2019)

rulefan said:



			Internal club regulations. Suspension of certain playing rights - quire common for non rules offences.
		
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???


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## Slab (Jun 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In our most important Open comp of the year.  10th hole of morning round one of my FCs (a fellow member) played out of a front greenside bunker; tidied the bunker up; then dropped the rake in the bunker so that it ran along the fairway-side inside edge of the bunker.  That edge is a sheer 18" revetted face.  A ball rolling into the bunker along a 6ft stretch would be trapped very close to the revetted face and no shot towards the green (never mind the flag) would have been possible.

I lightly, and in as friendly a way as I could, mentioned to that FC that *I wouldn''t want to be the player whose ball rolls into the bunker and gets trapped by the rake*.  He looked at me a without speaking moved it to where it should be placed (ask requested by the club).  He did not speak to me for a couple of holes and I think was in a grump with me for rest of round.

Was I right to speak as I did.
		
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Only you two know but whats written could come over as sarcastic/critical (which I don't believe was your intent, as you say _'in as friendly way as I could'_) Even so he would've been a bit precious taking the huff just for that but you might want to have a couple of variations in your choice of words in case you come up against him again

Right to speak up? sure you were
Could it have been friendlier? sure it could 
He was too precious? more than likely


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## chrisd (Jun 25, 2019)

I much prefer the take to be left half in, half out of the bunker. When it's been wet and the rake is fully in the bunker the handle is usually covered in wet sand which gets on my hand and glove, half in half out generally stops this as only the end of the rake sits touching sand


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## Capella (Jun 25, 2019)

Ahhh ... another rake placement thread ... we didn't have one in a while. I'll go get popcorn ...


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## Jacko_G (Jun 25, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I much prefer the take to be left half in, half out of the bunker. When it's been wet and the rake is fully in the bunker the handle is usually covered in wet sand which gets on my hand and glove, half in half out generally stops this as only the end of the rake sits touching sand
		
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Which to me sums up the whole argument. There is no right or wrong way. Your preference is what you state, I prefer the rake to be left outside the bunker and the OP is clearly convinced his way is "correct".


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## chrisd (Jun 25, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Which to me sums up the whole argument. There is no right or wrong way. Your preference is what you state, I prefer the rake to be left outside the bunker and the OP is clearly convinced his way is "correct".
		
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 Actually I am with you and prefer the rake completely outside the bunker and quite like the clubs who have holders where the rake stands upright as there's much less chance of hitting them


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## upsidedown (Jun 25, 2019)

chrisd said:



			Actually I am with you and prefer the rake completely outside the bunker and quite like the clubs who have holders where the rake stands upright as there's much less chance of hitting them
		
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Having had this discussion last year we now have stands for them on the side of the bunker least likely to interfere with play , but some members insist on moving the stands and/or leaving the rakes in the bunkers .
As for the GK's we've instructed them to mow up to the stand then move them into the freshly mown area thus reducing lost mowing time .


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## Orikoru (Jun 25, 2019)

chrisd said:



			I much prefer the take to be left half in, half out of the bunker. When it's been wet and the rake is fully in the bunker the handle is usually covered in wet sand which gets on my hand and glove, half in half out generally stops this as only the end of the rake sits touching sand
		
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This is what I do. On the far side of the bunker (so it doesn't collect any golf balls rolling in the front), stand it up against the edge with the rake head in the sand, handle sticking out.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 25, 2019)

Slab said:



			Only you two know but whats written could come over as sarcastic/critical (which I don't believe was your intent, as you say _'in as friendly way as I could'_) Even so he would've been a bit precious taking the huff just for that but you might want to have a couple of variations in your choice of words in case you come up against him again

Right to speak up? sure you were
Could it have been friendlier? sure it could
He was too precious? more than likely
		
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I was going to comment on this as well. The piece in italics doesn't read very well and I can easily see how the person could see the conversation as condescending if delivered in this manner and how it could easily cause offence/embarrassment even though it was clearly well meant.

If a club has specific rules then as a member you need to abide by those. If not, there are R&A guidelines as outlined already and it seems logical to follow these. However I see it week in week out at my club (and others when we play matches) where the bunker is raked (some better than others but the quality of raking is a whole different can of worms) and the rake simply put in the side of a bunker with no thought given for the position and potential impact on other players. I do think though, there should be more done by more clubs to try and get a unified position for rakes but you know full well its a losing battle as many members seem to think they're above being told how to behave on the course


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## rksquire (Jun 25, 2019)

I hit a rake (left outside the bunker) shaft 2 weeks ago and the ball shot off to the right.  Of course I was well right of the green to be begin with so it's really just bad luck.  I actually prefer the rake left out (aligned in the direction of play) which seems to be a minority view - my thinking is coming to rest against the rake outside the bunker, it's much easier to remove the rake without the ball moving; inside the bunker this is harder - most of our bunkers are cupped / saucer shaped so rolling in means rolling down or hitting the furthest face means rolling down - a rake would stop both; centrally placed rakes would mean throwing it in.  But as I said I'm in a minority, my PPs say it should be placed in the bunker and they're older & wiser than me.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 25, 2019)

If a club has a clear code for the placement of rakes in bunkers then any player should abide by this!
Anything else is wrong imo.
When in Rome.


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## robinthehood (Jun 25, 2019)

rksquire said:



			I hit a rake (left outside the bunker) shaft 2 weeks ago and the ball shot off to the right.  Of course I was well right of the green to be begin with so it's really just bad luck.  I actually prefer the rake left out (aligned in the direction of play) which seems to be a minority view - my thinking is coming to rest against the rake outside the bunker, it's much easier to remove the rake without the ball moving; inside the bunker this is harder - most of our bunkers are cupped / saucer shaped so rolling in means rolling down or hitting the furthest face means rolling down - a rake would stop both; centrally placed rakes would mean throwing it in.  But as I said I'm in a minority, my PPs say it should be placed in the bunker and they're older & wiser than me.
		
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What does it matter if the ball moves when you move the rake ?


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## rksquire (Jun 25, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			What does it matter if the ball moves when you move the rake ?
		
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Probably my ignorance of the rules to be honest - I thought outside the bunker, if the ball moved it could be replaced without penalty; inside (if moving the rake the ball roles closer to the hole), if it was on the slope it needs to be placed where it come to rest - ie on the slope into the bunker or NPR within the bunker no closer to the hole - couldn't do this on a downward slope so would have to incur a stroke / distance penalty?


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## robinthehood (Jun 25, 2019)

rksquire said:



			Probably my ignorance of the rules to be honest - I thought outside the bunker, if the ball moved it could be replaced without penalty; inside (if moving the rake the ball roles closer to the hole), if it was on the slope it needs to be placed where it come to rest - ie on the slope into the bunker or NPR within the bunker no closer to the hole - couldn't do this on a downward slope so would have to incur a stroke / distance penalty?
		
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Nah no pen,  but it is a pain in the arse

Ah you mean if there is no where to put it no nearer the hole without it moving ?
Yeah tough luck I suppose. All the more reason to leave it outside


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## TheJezster (Jun 25, 2019)

Seems to be a lot of divided opinion.  I have no opinion on a rake placement so cant really comment other than to say the rake will be where it was last left.  If its not next to where I went in I might be slightly irked, but I'll just throw it in after using it nearby where I used it.  I think I pretty much just put the head in, and leave the end out.

Would I have moved the rake if you'd asked me?  Probably, but the way you said it, although friendly, I would have laughed off and said something like "yea, he or she will have a bit of trouble getting out" and walked on.  If you had asked me to move it, I probably would have.

Seems every course and every member has a different idea on how to leave a rake, so you're pretty much dammed if you do, dammed if you don't!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2019)

patricks148 said:



			might not make much difference in a shallow parkland bunker, but makes a big difference in a deep reveted pot bunker
		
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...and we are rebuilding every bunker on the course with revetted faces.  Previously our bunkers were parkland-style bunkers and as you say rake placement was not quite so critical - but when your ball can roll into a bunker and drop almost straight down at least 12" then now it really does matter.


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 25, 2019)

I know there was a "fad" a few years ago and a lot of courses were putting little stands on their rakes so unless the ball hit the head or very top there as a chance it would roll underneath either in the bunker or outside depending on where it was left. I don't seem to see that anymore. Does/did it make any difference?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2019)

rulefan said:



			How do you get it to the centre of a large bunker without walking into and out of it.
If it is thrown in, it could cause a large rut in the middle worse than an unraked footprint.

Incidentally, some years ago my club ruled that all rakes be left out, 1 rake length from the the bunker. There were no major objections, just a gradual ignoring the rule (mainly the 1 rake length). The effect was everyone did their own thing.
A new committee have ruled they should now be in. Result with half a season gone - everyone does their own thing.
		
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Our bunkers are not wide front to back - and so it is quite easy to put the rake into the centre of the bunker without having to hurl it with any great force and so create a large rut.  Besides - as the ball would at worse by against the rake it wouldn't be that affected by any surface disturbance of the sand caused by the rake being thrown in.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2019)

Slab said:



			Only you two know but whats written could come over as sarcastic/critical (which I don't believe was your intent, as you say _'in as friendly way as I could'_) Even so he would've been a bit precious taking the huff just for that but you might want to have a couple of variations in your choice of words in case you come up against him again

Right to speak up? sure you were
Could it have been friendlier? sure it could
He was too precious? more than likely
		
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Yes I know what you say - but I did not want to be *telling* my FC to move the rake into the correct position - he knows where he should have put it and so would know exactly why I was saying what I was saying (with a smile on my face  )


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 25, 2019)

TheJezster said:



			Seems to be a lot of divided opinion.  I have no opinion on a rake placement so cant really comment other than to say the rake will be where it was last left.  If its not next to where I went in I might be slightly irked, but I'll just throw it in after using it nearby where I used it.  I think I pretty much just put the head in, and leave the end out.

Would I have moved the rake if you'd asked me?  Probably, but the way you said it, although friendly, I would have laughed off and said something like *"yea, he or she will have a bit of trouble getting out" and walked on. * If you had asked me to move it, I probably would have.

Seems every course and every member has a different idea on how to leave a rake, so you're pretty much dammed if you do, dammed if you don't!
		
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I would have said something like 'not funny' and would have gone and moved it myself.  Depending upon what you might have said to me and how you said it, I just might even have reported the incident.  Where the rake had been placed could have cost a following player 2 shots (if he had chosen the new bunker drop option).  We were playing in the club's most prestigious open competition and if that player had been a visitor (or indeed a member) up there with a chance of coming in the frame he could very rightly have been very miffed.


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## Marshy77 (Jun 25, 2019)

and people still wonder why more people aren't playing the game!!


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## Wolf (Jun 25, 2019)

Marshy77 said:



			and people still wonder why more people aren't playing the game!!
		
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Completely agree to be honest especially reading back through varying replies.. 

Got to admit if someone reported me to the committee for the misplacement of a rake, I'd think they were a complete knob. 

It's just a game it isn't the end of the world if it's not in the exact spot


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## Orikoru (Jun 25, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Completely agree to be honest especially reading back through varying replies..

Got to admit if someone reported me to the committee for the misplacement of a rake, I'd think they were a complete knob.

It's just a game it isn't the end of the world if it's not in the exact spot
		
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Better yet, maybe we should all do each other a favour and lay them outside the bunkers across the front to stop people rolling in?


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 25, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Got to admit if someone reported me to the committee for the misplacement of a rake, I'd think they were a complete knob.
		
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I think you are being way too polite. I'd be causing merry hell. It's not the end of the world and lets be honest, irrespective of the OP saying it was their big event of the year, how many times a season do we actually hit a rake or find the rake impeding the ball in a bunker? I'd rather worry about repairing pitch marks, actually raking bunkers and pace of play


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## Wolf (Jun 25, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I think you are being way too polite. I'd be causing merry hell. It's not the end of the world and lets be honest, irrespective of the OP saying it was their big event of the year, how many times a season do we actually hit a rake or find the rake impeding the ball in a bunker? I'd rather worry about repairing pitch marks, actually raking bunkers and pace of play
		
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Oh I'd be telling them to their face I think they're a knob for being so petty. 

Plus the fact the player has hit the ball in the bunker so rather than them being annoyed at placement of the rwke seeking excuses they should be accepting they put the ball in the crap in the first place. 

Can count on 1 hand how many times a ball has rest against a rake and even then probably less than 3 fingers needed..


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## Marshy77 (Jun 25, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I think you are being way too polite. I'd be causing merry hell. It's not the end of the world and lets be honest, irrespective of the OP saying it was their big event of the year, how many times a season do we actually hit a rake or find the rake impeding the ball in a bunker? I'd rather worry about repairing pitch marks, actually raking bunkers and pace of play
		
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It happens that often that there isn't a rule about it. 

It's an extremely rare occurance. It's bonkers.


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## TheJezster (Jun 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I would have said something like 'not funny' and would have gone and moved it myself.  Depending upon what you might have said to me and how you said it, *I just might even have reported the incident*.  Where the rake had been placed could have cost a following player 2 shots (if he had chosen the new bunker drop option).  We were playing in the club's most prestigious open competition and if that player had been a visitor (or indeed a member) up there with a chance of coming in the frame he could very rightly have been very miffed.
		
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I think that says more about you than me...

In my own reply I said I was laughing, ergo, friendly!


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## HomerJSimpson (Jun 25, 2019)

TheJezster said:



			I think that says more about you than me...

In my own reply I said I was laughing, ergo, friendly!
		
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Hold on Jezster, you can't comment as WCGC doesn't have bunkers. You're not qualified lol


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## Jacko_G (Jun 25, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			...and we are rebuilding every bunker on the course with revetted faces.  Previously our bunkers were parkland-style bunkers and as you say rake placement was not quite so critical - but when your ball can roll into a bunker and drop almost straight down at least 12" then now it really does matter.
		
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Pretty straight forward to come out sideways, take your medicine and move on.


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## Wolf (Jun 25, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Pretty straight forward to come out sideways, take your medicine and move on.
		
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My point exactly, instead of being irked by someone's positioning of a rake, be more wound up at yourself for hitting in the crap in the first place, take your medicine and move on


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## sunshine (Jun 25, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Oh I'd be telling them to their face I think they're a knob for being so petty.

Plus the fact the player has hit the ball in the bunker so rather than them being annoyed at placement of the rwke seeking excuses they should be accepting they put the ball in the crap in the first place.

Can count on 1 hand how many times a ball has rest against a rake and even then probably *less than 3 fingers needed*..
		
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You have 3 fingers on your hand? Is this a Lincolnshire thing? I've heard stories about the rural farming community....


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## Wolf (Jun 25, 2019)

sunshine said:



			You have 3 fingers on your hand? Is this a Lincolnshire thing? I've heard stories about the rural farming community.... 

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No got 4 and an opposable thumb on each hand just wouldn't need them all to count how many times it's happened. ðŸ˜‚


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## sunshine (Jun 25, 2019)

jim8flog said:



			Say 50-60  bunkers on a course and 2 minutes getting off the mower moving the rake and getting back on the mower. That's nearly two hours of a green keepers time spent just picking up and moving rakes several days a week.
		
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2 minutes to move a rake? Does your course have giant rakes made of solid lead? I would expect this to take no more than 5 seconds per rake... so more like 4-5 minutes per day.

RAKE DEBATE!!!


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## Imurg (Jun 25, 2019)

Of course you could just do away with rakes altogether. They are meant to be hazards after all...


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## Marshy77 (Jun 25, 2019)

#RakeGate


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## jim8flog (Jun 25, 2019)

sunshine said:



			2 minutes to move a rake? Does your course have giant rakes made of solid lead? I would expect this to take no more than 5 seconds per rake... so more like 4-5 minutes per day.

RAKE DEBATE!!!
		
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5 seconds!! Makes me wonder what type of mowers your greenkeepers use.


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## jim8flog (Jun 25, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Te reason for having rakes in the bunker pointing in a specific direction is 100% cosmetic. No other reason
		
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I was referring to comments about rakes left outside of the bunkers.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2019)

Now I did not say I would ever report anyone for putting the rake in what the club considers the wrong place - I said - and I quote - 'Depending upon what you might have said to me and how you said it'.

If a player knows he has put a rake into a place in a bunker that could cause a FC a serious issue, and has it pointed out - but refuses to do anything about it and makes a comment such as was suggested - then are we not slipping into areas of breach of etiquette - lack of consideration for other players and fellow competitors; not leaving a bunker/course as you found it etc? Further - and I was specific - this was in the club's most prestigious open competition.  I would certainly not do same in a normal friendly or social round - or indeed internal club competition.


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## Marshy77 (Jun 26, 2019)

jim8flog said:



			5 seconds!! Makes me wonder what type of mowers your greenkeepers use.
		
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Greenkeeper gets to rake, jumps out of mower, moves rake, cuts grass, re-positions the rake in the exact spot that he found the rake to not upset anyone and drives to next bunker. Repeat.


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## Jacko_G (Jun 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Now I did not say I would ever report anyone for putting the rake in what the club considers the wrong place - I said - and I quote - 'Depending upon what you might have said to me and how you said it'.

If a player knows he has put a rake into a place in a bunker that could cause a FC a serious issue, and has it pointed out - but refuses to do anything about it and makes a comment such as was suggested - then are we not slipping into areas of breach of etiquette - lack of consideration for other players and fellow competitors; not leaving a bunker/course as you found it etc? Further - and I was specific - this was in the club's most prestigious open competition.  I would certainly not do same in a normal friendly or social round - or indeed internal club competition.
		
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I can't work out if you are serious or not???

"Breach of etiquette" seriously?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 26, 2019)

sunshine said:



			2 minutes to move a rake? Does your course have giant rakes made of solid lead? I would expect this to take no more than 5 seconds per rake... so more like 4-5 minutes per day.

RAKE DEBATE!!!
		
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I'm calling BS on this! It's got to be 6-7 seconds at least by the time the guy puts the mower in neutral, gets off, moves the rake, gets back on then starts the mower again. Plus of course he has to do the same in reverse after he has cut around the bunker.

This deffo needs a debate!

#rakegate


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			I can't work out if you are serious or not???

"Breach of etiquette" seriously?
		
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If a player does something *deliberately *that you and he know could have a significant negative impact on the score of a player following you - and on having that pointed out to him he refuses to then correct what he has done - then that's OK?


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## Jacko_G (Jun 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If a player does something *deliberately *that you and he know could have a significant negative impact on the score of a player following you - and on having that pointed out to him he refuses to then correct what he has done - then that's OK?
		
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Do you struggle for playing partners?


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## Marshy77 (Jun 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If a player does something deliberately that you and he know could have a *significant negative impact* on the score of a player following you - and on having that pointed out to him he refuses to then correct what he has done - then that's OK?
		
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## Jacko_G (Jun 26, 2019)

Honest to goodness. I can't believe how precious and anal this topic is. Basically someone doesn't replace a rake the way the OP wants/believes it should be done and we're into 5 pages!!! Who says that one way is more correct than another? You can hit off the rake in the centre of a bunker and ricochet off it up under a lip or into the side of the bunker just as much as you can with a rake left at the edge/half in/half out. 

Good luck on your rake crusade.


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## Marshy77 (Jun 26, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Good luck on your rake crusade.
		
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All I imagine now is someone hiding in bushes around bunkers dressed in a Batman style outfit waiting for someone to misplace a rake - The Rake Crusader.


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## garyinderry (Jun 26, 2019)

If you have such small steep bunkers then ask your committee to implement an outside if bunker policy.


We have big bunkers and it's a rarity to land under the rake.  It usually requires a small hike to find it.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			If a player does something *deliberately *that you and he know could have a significant negative impact on the score of a player following you - and on having that pointed out to him he refuses to then correct what he has done - then that's OK?
		
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This entire thread is a waste of time purely because there is no right or wrong place to leave a rake. Some clubs specify in the bunker, some specify outside the bunker and some provide poles that allow you to stand them vertically.


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## Wolf (Jun 26, 2019)

Why does it matter if its the most prestigious event or just a round with the guys. Its a bloody rake there is no rule governing its placement. 

If bunkers are that steep then leave it outside. Or just accept its only a bloody rake and isn't the end of the world. 

Seems to be an overly precious debate, especially considering if you hit it in the hazard its your own fault so if you end up punished tough luck play a better shot next time.


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## Orikoru (Jun 26, 2019)

Not taking his side but he did say there _is _a rule at his club telling people where to put the rakes. But regardless of that, if you put it in slightly the wrong place, the chances of that having a 'significant negative impact' as he put it, on another player are pretty remote I would say. If I hit a rake on a round I would say "oh well that was bad/good luck", shift the rake out of the way if needed and crack on. I probably wouldn't report to the committee that someone left it in the wrong place.


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## TheJezster (Jun 26, 2019)

I think the committee needs a letter, yes that should do it.  A separate letter for each instance of rake misplacement.  I'm sure they'll appreciate the time taken to write such letters too.

Who knows, perhaps one day you could be in charge of the rake sub committee, with monthly reports to the management team!  You could have flip charts with diagrams and everything!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Jun 26, 2019)

TheJezster said:



			I think the committee needs a letter, yes that should do it.  A separate letter for each instance of rake misplacement.  I'm sure they'll appreciate the time taken to write such letters too.

Who knows, perhaps one day you could be in charge of the rake sub committee, with monthly reports to the management team!  You could have flip charts with diagrams and everything!
		
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The club might even supply a parking space for services to the members


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## Marshy77 (Jun 26, 2019)

drive4show said:



			The club might even supply a parking space for services to the members  

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You'd have to make sure you were parked corrected, well within the parking space and not outside the lines!!


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## Imurg (Jun 26, 2019)

Marshy77 said:



			You'd have to make sure you were parked corrected, well within the parking space and not outside the lines!!
		
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I know someone who can help with that...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2019)

garyinderry said:



*If you have such small steep bunkers then ask your committee to implement an outside if bunker policy.*


We have big bunkers and it's a rarity to land under the rake.  It usually requires a small hike to find it.
		
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I have been thinking I might well discuss this with some fellow members and if there is a consensus we can raise a suggestion (I cannot raise a suggestion on my own - we must submit suggestions signed by 6 members). In the past 'incorrectly' placed rakes were really just an irritation in respect of inconsistency across the course - but with our new bunkers the situation has - I feel - changed.

For reasons I can understand, I have been on receipt of a fair amount of disbelief and slagging off over this - however here's a pic of the scenario so you can see what I mean and why I said what I said to my FC.  Note the other rake in the 'correct location.

I only do this out of a duty of care to other golfers playing behind me.  I am not too sure why that is such a nonsense thing to do.  Also pic of one of the bunkers rebuilt this spring.  This used to be a simple greenside parkland style bunker that had a slightly raised face to the green - but pretty much no drop in around the rest of it's perimeter.


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## Orikoru (Jun 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have been thinking I might well discuss this with some fellow members and if there is a consensus we can raise a suggestion (I cannot raise a suggestion on my own - we must submit suggestions signed by 6 members). In the past 'incorrectly' placed rakes were really just an irritation in respect of inconsistency across the course - but with our new bunkers the situation has - I feel - changed.

For reasons I can understand, I have been on receipt of a fair amount of disbelief and slagging off over this - however here's a pic of the scenario so you can see what I mean and why I said what I said to my FC.  Note the other rake in the 'correct location.

I only do this out of a duty of care to other golfers playing behind me.  I am not too sure why that is such a nonsense thing to do.
		
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So you move the rake and the ball rolls where it would have rolled anyway, what's the problem?

That must happen once in a blue moon if you're very unlucky.


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## robinthehood (Jun 26, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			So you move the rake and the ball rolls where it would have rolled anyway, what's the problem?

That must happen once in a blue moon if you're very unlucky.
		
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You have to put the ball back ðŸ˜‰


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## bobmac (Jun 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have been thinking I might well discuss this with some fellow members and if there is a consensus we can raise a suggestion (I cannot raise a suggestion on my own - we must submit suggestions signed by 6 members). In the past 'incorrectly' placed rakes were really just an irritation in respect of inconsistency across the course - but with our new bunkers the situation has - I feel - changed.

For reasons I can understand, I have been on receipt of a fair amount of disbelief and slagging off over this - however here's a pic of the scenario so you can see what I mean and why I said what I said to my FC.  Note the other rake in the 'correct location.

I only do this out of a duty of care to other golfers playing behind me.  I am not too sure why that is such a nonsense thing to do.
		
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I take it that ball on the rake in the photo was placed there to show what could happen and didn't just happen to roll through the thick rough and drop in the front?


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## Marshy77 (Jun 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have been thinking I might well discuss this with some fellow members and if there is a consensus we can raise a suggestion (I cannot raise a suggestion on my own - we must submit suggestions signed by 6 members). In the past 'incorrectly' placed rakes were really just an irritation in respect of inconsistency across the course - but with our new bunkers the situation has - I feel - changed.

For reasons I can understand, I have been on receipt of a fair amount of disbelief and slagging off over this - however here's a pic of the scenario so you can see what I mean and why I said what I said to my FC.  Note the other rake in the 'correct location.

I only do this out of a duty of care to other golfers playing behind me.  I am not too sure why that is such a nonsense thing to do.  Also pic of one of the bunkers rebuilt this spring.  This used to be a simple greenside parkland style bunker that had a slightly raised face to the green - but pretty much no drop in around the rest of it's perimeter.
		
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Sorry but that bunker is HUGE. If a ball happens to end up like in the picture, for me, it's just unfortunate. The ball could as easily run into the bunker and end up under the rake in the middle.


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## robinthehood (Jun 26, 2019)

Marshy77 said:



			Sorry but that bunker is HUGE. If a ball happens to end up like in the picture, for me, it's just unfortunate. The ball could as easily run into the bunker and end up under the rake in the middle.
		
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Which is his point...no issue with the rake in the middle


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## Orikoru (Jun 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			You have to put the ball back ðŸ˜‰
		
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Well you can't put it back there can you, it'll just roll down anyway. It's on a slope.


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## Jacko_G (Jun 26, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Well you can't put it back there can you, it'll just roll down anyway. It's on a slope. 

Click to expand...

Read the rules.


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## robinthehood (Jun 26, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Well you can't put it back there can you, it'll just roll down anyway. It's on a slope. 

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So what do you do, bearing in mind you can't be any nearer the hole


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## Orikoru (Jun 26, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Read the rules.
		
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The rules of physics??


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## Orikoru (Jun 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			So what do you do, bearing in mind you can't be any nearer the hole
		
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I move the rake and it rolls down exactly where it would have gone if someone hadn't have left the bloody rake there!


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## robinthehood (Jun 26, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I move the rake and it rolls down exactly where it would have gone if someone hadn't have left the bloody rake there!
		
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OMG....
Yes that's what might  happen if you move the rake...You think it's ok to then just carry on playing from that spot ?


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## Jacko_G (Jun 26, 2019)

So if you stop under the lip at the back you play out sideways, rub of the green. The ball can quite easily go under the lip at any point in a bunker. They're designed to penalize poor or inaccurate shots.

I bounced on a sprinkler head at the 11th at Mach Dunes last year, ball was never seen again by anyone. We heard it hit but goodness gracious me none of us saw it. Run of the green. Had to go back a reload. 

Maybe I should suggest soft knitted covers over the sprinkler heads?


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## Orikoru (Jun 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			OMG....
Yes that's what might  happen if you move the rake...You think it's ok to then just carry on playing from that spot ?
		
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Why not? That's where it should have gone if somebody hadn't have left the rake in the way. 




Jacko_G said:



			Maybe I should suggest soft knitted covers over the sprinkler heads?
		
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Not gonna lie, that is a brilliant idea. I would patent that before someone else does.


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## TheJezster (Jun 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have been thinking I might well discuss this with some fellow members and if there is a consensus we can raise a suggestion (I cannot raise a suggestion on my own - we must submit suggestions signed by 6 members). In the past 'incorrectly' placed rakes were really just an irritation in respect of inconsistency across the course - but with our new bunkers the situation has - I feel - changed.

For reasons I can understand, I have been on receipt of a fair amount of disbelief and slagging off over this - however here's a pic of the scenario so you can see what I mean and why I said what I said to my FC.  Note the other rake in the 'correct location.

I only do this out of a duty of care to other golfers playing behind me.  I am not too sure why that is such a nonsense thing to do.  Also pic of one of the bunkers rebuilt this spring.  This used to be a simple greenside parkland style bunker that had a slightly raised face to the green - but pretty much no drop in around the rest of it's perimeter.
		
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In the photo on the left I presume your "correct" position is the one with the head in the bunker and the handle leaning against the side?  That would make sense and in a bunker that size it's probably how I would leave it too.  I wouldn't tell someone to pick it up if they just threw it in the middle though!


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## robinthehood (Jun 26, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Why not? That's where it should have gone if somebody hadn't have left the rake in the way.



Not gonna lie, that is a brilliant idea. I would patent that before someone else does.
		
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Ok what ever


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## Wolf (Jun 26, 2019)

I'm sorry but that bunker is massive. 

Firstly no way that pictures genuine more of a set up scenario because a ball rolling just enough to trickle in that would not get through that rough round the edge. 

Secondly to leave the rake in middle and then get put just wouldn't work for me, you see I have this affliction of being vertically challenged so I don't have a long reach, therefore no way I could do it without either leaving footprints in the sand which is far worse than leaving the rake as its pictured as some one would moan I hadn't raked it ðŸ™„, or I literally have to chuck it from outside which would likewise offend some Rupert. So if I played your course I be regularly getting letters submitted about my conduct. 

Simple solution is leave the rakes outside the bunker. Or likewise accept its your own fault for sticking it in there in the first place. If I put it there and have to play out sideways or backwards that's not the rakes fault it's simply me taking my medicine for hitting a crap shot there in the first place.. 



Orikoru said:



			Why not? That's where it should have gone if somebody hadn't have left the rake in the way.
		
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Because that's the rules.. Its quite simple if you move the rake you have to put the ball back where it was, simple answer read the rules it describes exactly what happens in this scenario, you are not allowed to play the ball from ahead of where it originally lay. No different to taking a drop and ball rolling forward of drop point, you don't play it from where it rolled to, you drop again and place of necessary.


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## jim8flog (Jun 26, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I move the rake and it rolls down exactly where it would have gone if someone hadn't have left the bloody rake there!
		
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In my shot (intending to run the ball through the bunker and on to the green) am I allowed to pick the ball up (which is resting on the rake) and place it where it would have finished on the green if it were not for the rake.?


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## Marshy77 (Jun 26, 2019)

Is there 2 rakes on every hole for you to tidy up your footprints when leaving the rake in the middle of the bunker?? What does the club suggest for the 2nd rake? 

This is getting more bizarre after every post!!


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## Orikoru (Jun 26, 2019)

Wolf said:



			Because that's the rules.. Its quite simple if you move the rake you have to put the ball back where it was, simple answer read the rules it describes exactly what happens in this scenario, you are not allowed to play the ball from ahead of where it originally lay. No different to taking a drop and ball rolling forward of drop point, you don't play it from where it rolled to, you drop again and place of necessary.
		
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How can you drop or even place it on a steep slope?? It's going to roll down to the middle every single time. Even placing it.




jim8flog said:



			In my shot (intending to run the ball through the bunker and on to the green) am I allowed to pick the ball up (which is resting on the rake) and place it where it would have finished on the green if it were not for the rake.?
		
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What are you talking about? I never said anything about placing or even touching the ball did I.


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## jim8flog (Jun 26, 2019)

[



What are you talking about? I never said anything about placing or even touching the ball did I.[/QUOTE]

You said it is ok to play from the place where the ball should have gone had the rake not been there. In my circumstance the ball should have gone on to the green ( a shot I often play in the same circumstance).


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## Orikoru (Jun 26, 2019)

jim8flog said:



			[



What are you talking about? I never said anything about placing or even touching the ball did I.
		
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			You said it is ok to play from the place where the ball should have gone had the rake not been there. In my circumstance the ball should have gone on to the green ( a shot I often play in the same circumstance).
		
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If you move the rake and the ball somehow rolls up onto the green under its own steam then that would be somewhat similar to what I said, yeah.


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## Jacko_G (Jun 26, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			If you move the rake and the ball somehow rolls up onto the green under its own steam then that would be somewhat similar to what I said, yeah. 

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You MUST replace the ball where it was if it rolls.


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## Wolf (Jun 26, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			How can you drop or even place it on a steep slope?? It's going to roll down to the middle every single time. Even placing it.



What are you talking about? I never said anything about placing or even touching the ball did I.
		
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Easily done in a bunker and no slope on type of courses we play is siverere the ball would immediately roll when placed.
The sand in bunker would allow ball to sit in place. 

Which part of you MUST replace the ball don't you get its in the rules the rules give clear definitions of what to do in these circumstances, it's not an option to discard it wand play it where it rolls to


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## Orikoru (Jun 26, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			You MUST replace the ball where it was if it rolls.
		
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Wolf said:



			Easily done in a bunker and no slope on type of courses we play is siverere the ball would immediately roll when placed.
The sand in bunker would allow ball to sit in place.

Which part of you MUST replace the ball don't you get its in the rules the rules give clear definitions of what to do in these circumstances, it's not an option to discard it wand play it where it rolls to
		
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lol are you guys being serious? Go back and look at the picture he posted, it's about a 45Â° angle, the ball would never stay there unless you practically embed it in the sand with your fingers, which I'm guessing you wouldn't be allowed to do either? Stop being silly and think about what you're saying. Rules are rules but you can't defy the laws of physics.

Edit: if it wouldn't roll away then placed, then it wouldn't have rolled away when you moved the rake either so this discussion would be moot wouldn't it.


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## robinthehood (Jun 26, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			lol are you guys being serious? Go back and look at the picture he posted, it's about a 45Â° angle, the ball would never stay there unless you practically embed it in the sand with your fingers, which I'm guessing you wouldn't be allowed to do either? Stop being silly and think about what you're saying. Rules are rules but you can't defy the laws of physics.

Edit: if it wouldn't roll away then placed, then it wouldn't have rolled away when you moved the rake either so this discussion would be moot wouldn't it.
		
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The point is do you know what to do if the ball rolls after moving the rake. It appears not.


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## Wolf (Jun 26, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			lol are you guys being serious? Go back and look at the picture he posted, it's about a 45Â° angle, the ball would never stay there unless you practically embed it in the sand with your fingers, which I'm guessing you wouldn't be allowed to do either? *Stop being silly and think about what you're saying. Rules are rules but you can't defy the laws of physics*.
		
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You're just being pedantic now. I've seen the slope, I've played course with similar slopes and the ball does stay where its placed try it one day you'll be surprised. 

So what do you propose in this incident you assume it can't be done without trying and play it from where it's rolled to breaching the rules which depending on how the breach is viewed could be a 2shot penalty because you assume physics outweighs the rules or could even be a potential DQ.  You have to at least make an attempt to correct the issue.


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## Orikoru (Jun 26, 2019)

Wolf said:



			You're just being pedantic now. I've seen the slope, I've played course with similar slopes and the ball does stay where its placed try it one day you'll be surprised.

So what do you propose in this incident you assume it can't be done without trying and play it from where it's rolled to breaching the rules which depending on how the breach is viewed could be a 2shot penalty because you assume physics outweighs the rules or could even be a potential DQ.  You have to at least make an attempt to correct the issue.
		
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Ok ok, seriously though, say it won't stay when placed, what do you do then, place it at the nearest point to that, still in the bunker, not nearer to the hole, where it will stay without rolling? Or what?

Being totally honest, if I was just playing a nothing round with my mates I would absolutely just move the rake and play from where it ended up, because none of them would give a toss and there is nothing riding on our rounds. In a comp I would have had to ask the other players in the group so as not to break a rule, and I'm sure we would have gone through the same entire conversation we've just had here.


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## Orikoru (Jun 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			The point is do you know what to do if the ball rolls after moving the rake. It appears not.
		
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That is why we have these helpful discussions.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2019)

TheJezster said:



			In the photo on the left I presume your "correct" position is the one with the head in the bunker and the handle leaning against the side?  That would make sense and in a bunker that size it's probably how I would leave it too.  I wouldn't tell someone to pick it up if they just threw it in the middle though!
		
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I assume that you are jesting.  It is not difficult to place the rake in the middle of the bunker and - as you can see - there is no great indentation in the bunker as a result of it being put there.

As for the rough just before the bunker.  Yes there is a narrow band of maybe a yard or two of what is probably 1st cut length that side of the bunker. However the fairway runs up to that rough and - though it stops slower balls going into the bunker - it does not stop all balls.  As it happens the photo is not reflective of the situation described in my OP where the rake was placed with the rake handle running along the line of the rake head shown in the pic.  What I have showed is how I am finding many rakes positioned now that we have the steep sides of the faces of the revetted bunkers to prop them up.

The second pic simply shows how we are asked to place rakes - and is typical of our new revetted faced bunkers (though many have much deeper greenside faces)


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Ok ok, seriously though, say it won't stay when placed, what do you do then, place it at the nearest point to that, still in the bunker, not nearer to the hole, where it will stay without rolling? Or what?

Being totally honest, if I was just playing a nothing round with my mates I would absolutely just move the rake and play from where it ended up, because none of them would give a toss and there is nothing riding on our rounds. In a comp I would have had to ask the other players in the group so as not to break a rule, and I'm sure we would have gone through the same entire conversation we've just had here.
		
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Indeed and maybe I might do the same in similar circumstances (though with my mates as there would be money on it I have my doubts) - but please remember that this was in our most important and prestigious open competition (the Silver Frigate for those who know my club)


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## TheJezster (Jun 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I assume that you are jesting.  It is not difficult to place the rake in the middle of the bunker and - as you can see - there is no great indentation in the bunker as a result of it being put there.

As for the rough just before the bunker.  Yes there is a narrow band of maybe a yard or two of what is probably 1st cut length that side of the bunker. However the fairway runs up to that rough and - though it stops slower balls going into the bunker - it does not stop all balls.  As it happens the photo is not reflective of the situation described in my OP where the rake was placed with the rake handle running along the line of the rake head shown in the pic.  What I have showed is how I am finding many rakes positioned now that we have the steep sides of the faces of the revetted bunkers to prop them up.

The second pic simply shows how we are asked to place rakes - and is typical of our new revetted faced bunkers (though many have much deeper greenside faces)
		
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I actually wasn't, but for the life of me I really cant get over you are told to simply bung your rakes into the middle like that!!!  :-D

Cant see that cottoning on very well...


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I move the rake and it rolls down exactly where it would have gone if someone hadn't have left the bloody rake there!
		
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precisely...


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## Orikoru (Jun 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			Yes you place it on the nearest place it won't roll from that isn't nearer the hole.
If that's not possible your looking at taking an unplayable and a penalty.
		
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I can tell you now, there is absolutely no way I'd be taking a penalty because of where some other bloke left a rake. Not a chance in hell. That would be an absolute farce.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I can tell you now, there is absolutely no way I'd be taking a penalty because of where some other bloke left a rake. Not a chance in hell. That would be an absolute farce.
		
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What choice do you have in a competition?  

And the possible 'farce' of the situation is exactly why I moved rakes into the bunker on almost every one of the 36 holes I played in the comp.  I did not do it for me - I did it for the players behind me.


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## Orikoru (Jun 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			What choice do you have in a competition? 

And the possible 'farce' of the situation is exactly why I moved rakes into the bunker on almost every one of the 36 holes I played in the comp.  I did not do it for me - I did it for the players behind me.
		
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Haha, yeah, you win man. Keep moving those rakes for the good of mankind.


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## Orikoru (Jun 26, 2019)

robinthehood said:



			What if the rake had stopped your ball getting into trouble? Would you be happy if it rolled out of bounds or into a pond when you moved it ?
		
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Why is there a rake by the pond? You wouldn't rake a pond..


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## Wolf (Jun 26, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I can tell you now, there is absolutely no way I'd be taking a penalty because of where some other bloke left a rake. Not a chance in hell. That would be an absolute farce.
		
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So what you do in a comp then not apply the penalty and hope nobody finds out means you've cheated the field. Or someone does find out you didn't apply penalty and you get DQ'd. Penalties sadly are not optional. 

Regardless of whether we agree with it or not thems the rules, take the medicine good or bad and move on.


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## Orikoru (Jun 26, 2019)

Wolf said:



			So what you do in a comp then not apply the penalty and hope nobody finds out means you've cheated the field. Or someone does find out you didn't apply penalty and you get DQ'd. Penalties sadly are not optional.

Regardless of whether we agree with it or not thems the rules, take the medicine good or bad and move on.
		
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Haha, was tongue in cheek but I would be downright furious. Am now fully on board with SILH's rake-moving malarky.


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## rulefan (Jun 26, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			How can you drop or even place it on a steep slope?? It's going to roll down to the middle every single time. Even placing it.
		
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And that is the issue that the R&A/USGA identify. If you can't get the ball to stay in a legal position, without pressing it down, in the bunker *you will have to take a penalty *to play from outside the bunker


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2019)

rulefan said:



			And that is the issue that the R&A/USGA identify. If you can't get the ball to stay in a legal position, without pressing it down, in the bunker *you will have to take a penalty *to play from outside the bunker
		
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And that is two shots these days?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Haha, was tongue in cheek but I would be downright furious. Am now fully on board with SILH's rake-moving malarky. 

Click to expand...

Yes - it's a malarky and one I'd rather not have to do - but yes - I do it for the players behind as a courtesy in the spirit of the game we play - it's a hard enough game as it is.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I have been thinking I might well discuss this with some fellow members and if there is a consensus we can raise a suggestion (I cannot raise a suggestion on my own - we must submit suggestions signed by 6 members). In the past 'incorrectly' placed rakes were really just an irritation in respect of inconsistency across the course - but with our new bunkers the situation has - I feel - changed.

For reasons I can understand, I have been on receipt of a fair amount of disbelief and slagging off over this - however here's a pic of the scenario so you can see what I mean and why I said what I said to my FC.  Note the other rake in the 'correct location.

I only do this out of a duty of care to other golfers playing behind me.  I am not too sure why that is such a nonsense thing to do.  Also pic of one of the bunkers rebuilt this spring.  This used to be a simple greenside parkland style bunker that had a slightly raised face to the green - but pretty much no drop in around the rest of it's perimeter.
		
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You should put the rake up the steps so if this scenario happens you get relief from the steps anyway.


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## Jacko_G (Jun 26, 2019)

7 pages. 

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚


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## Orikoru (Jun 26, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			7 pages.

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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I take some responsibility, whenever I give my opinion on one of the rules of golf that seems to add 2 pages minimum.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 26, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			7 pages.

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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You must have used half a page complaining about how many pages there are.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 26, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			I take some responsibility, whenever I give my opinion on one of the rules of golf that seems to add 2 pages minimum.
		
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You only learn if you ask.


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## Wolf (Jun 26, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			You should put the rake up the steps so if this scenario happens you get relief from the steps anyway.
		
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Seems like the single most sensible answer to this thread and would prevent any aggro surely.. 



Orikoru said:



			I take some responsibility, whenever I give my opinion on one of the rules of golf that seems to add 2 pages minimum.
		
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Sure it's just 2 pages ðŸ˜‚
But if you dint ask you don't know.. 



Jacko_G said:



			7 pages.

ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚
		
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I get the feeling it's got a while to run yet ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‰


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## JohnnyDee (Jun 26, 2019)

Started to read this and was about to reply then noticed we'd racked up 8 pages so guess there might be some sub-discussion going on now (God I do hope so for 8 pages  - but apologies as I haven't the time or inclination to read 'em all )

So purely in answer to the OP - Yes, I think you were completely right and that you handled it very diplomatically - he's the numpty for having copped the hump.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			You should put the rake up the steps so if this scenario happens you get relief from the steps anyway.
		
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That's a pretty good idea for one rake...most of our bunkers have 2 or 3 rakes.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2019)

JohnnyDee said:



			Started to read this and was about to reply then noticed we'd racked up 8 pages so guess there might be some sub-discussion going on now (God I do hope so for 8 pages  - but apologies as I haven't the time or inclination to read 'em all )

So purely in answer to the OP - Yes, I think you were completely right and that you handled it very diplomatically - he's the numpty for having copped the hump.
		
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Yes - that was indeed what my OP was about - pulling up a FC on what he did with a rake in a 'major' club competition.


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## yandabrown (Jun 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That's a pretty good idea for one rake...most of our bunkers have 2 or 3 rakes.
		
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But you are presumably encouraged to enter and exit the bunker using the steps so as to avoid damage?


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			That's a pretty good idea for one rake...most of our bunkers have 2 or 3 rakes.
		
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Should have put more steps in .
So a big bunker only has one entry point if steps are used , you donâ€™t need more than one rake.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Should have put more steps in .
So a big bunker only has one entry point if steps are used , you donâ€™t need more than one rake.
		
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That is true and worth some thought and deliberation - especially for the bunkers where we have steps in - and that is going to be most if not all by the time we've finished.  However it does mean that players could be wandering all over the bunker if the rake is not around where their ball is - and tidying up all those footprints...but yes - do we need more than one


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## garyinderry (Jun 26, 2019)

Before moving the rake and incurring a 2 shot penalty i would be taking a thrash at it with my 60 wedge.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 26, 2019)

garyinderry said:



			Before moving the rake and incurring a 2 shot penalty i would be taking a thrash at it with my 60 wedge.
		
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You'd be going backwards or sideways - and in all cases away from the green.  Good news is that the revetted faces of the bunkers are layered astroturf - and so would not get damaged if your club whacked into it - though the club might bend or bounce off the bunker face


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## rulefan (Jun 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And that is two shots these days?
		
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Back on Line is 2 strokes or S&D is 1 stroke.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 26, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You'd be going backwards or sideways - and in all cases away from the green.  Good news is that the revetted faces of the bunkers are layered astroturf - and so would not get damaged if your club whacked into it - though the club might bend or bounce off the bunker face 

Click to expand...

AstroTurf is artificial!
Do you still get relief from artificial structures?
If so anytime you will hit or are standing on them you should be entitled to free relief.


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## KenL (Jun 27, 2019)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I know there was a "fad" a few years ago and a lot of courses were putting little stands on their rakes so unless the ball hit the head or very top there as a chance it would roll underneath either in the bunker or outside depending on where it was left. I don't seem to see that anymore. Does/did it make any difference?
		
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My club still has these on its 100 bunkers.  Perfect solution for placing them outside the bunker where they should be ;-)


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## rulefan (Jun 27, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			AstroTurf is artificial!
Do you still get relief from artificial structures?
If so anytime you will hit or are standing on them you should be entitled to free relief.
		
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Such faces are often deemed to be Integral Objects.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 27, 2019)

rulefan said:



			Such faces are often deemed to be Integral Objects.
		
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â€œoftenâ€ would mean that some are not.
Is this a local rule ?


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## rulefan (Jun 27, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			â€œoftenâ€ would mean that some are not.
Is this a local rule ?
		
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Those that I have seen have been but I haven't been to all courses in the world. 
In effect, yes. It has to be defined as such by the Committee.


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## Marshy77 (Jun 27, 2019)

KenL said:



			My club still has these on its 100 bunkers.  Perfect solution for placing them outside the bunker where they should be ;-)
		
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Seems like the most sensible, logical and least disruptive


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 27, 2019)

rulefan said:



			Those that I have seen have been but I haven't been to all courses in the world.
In effect, yes. It has to be defined as such by the Committee.
		
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I will check - the revetted face is a constituent part of the bunker - though of course if the bunker is defined as being delimited by the sand, then the face would be outside of the bunker.  I am as certain as I can be that the bunker face is not an artificial structure as it is a designed element of the bunker and not something extraneous to the course design.


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## rulefan (Jun 27, 2019)

Such a face is by definition an Immovable Obstruction if it contains artificial elements. It is not an Integral Object unless declared to be by the Committee.
By definition, it is not part of the bunker whether the revetted face consists only of turf or includes artificial material.


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## sunshine (Jun 28, 2019)

Orikoru said:



			Haha, was tongue in cheek but I would be downright furious. Am now fully on board with SILH's rake-moving malarky. 

Click to expand...

129 posts before you finally understood this thread


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## Italian outcast (Jun 28, 2019)

Would be far simpler if players carried their own rakes


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 28, 2019)

rulefan said:



			Such a face is by definition an Immovable Obstruction if it contains artificial elements. It is not an Integral Object unless declared to be by the Committee.
By definition, it is not part of the bunker whether the revetted face consists only of turf or includes artificial material.
		
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The advice that I received from the Golfing Manager at the club this afternoon is that: as the revetted faces of the bunkers *are not* specifically identified as Immovable Obstructions (from which free relief is given) they are therefore an integral part of the course.

And of course on the rake placement question - if players put them where they are asked - and if not sure just used their common sense (i.e. don't place it where a ball might be trapped and subsequently be, at best virtually, unplayable) - there would be less risk of their being an issue.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The advice that I received from the Golfing Manager at the club this afternoon is that: as the revetted faces of the bunkers *are not* specifically identified as Immovable Obstructions (from which free relief is given) they are therefore an integral part of the course.

And of course on the rake placement question - if players put them where they are asked - and if not sure just used their common sense (i.e. don't place it where a ball might be trapped and subsequently be, at best virtually, unplayable) - there would be less risk of their being an issue.
		
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These two statements seem to be at odds.
Itâ€™s ok putting an artificial bunker face in that could damage someoneâ€™s clubs or break his wrist but they donâ€™t want to inconvenience someone with a badly placed rake.

Imo if your going to put artificial obstructions on the course you should get relief if it interferes with your playing of the game.
Just my opinion though.

Also I would have thought they would have to be deemed immovable obstructions to deny relief.


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## rulefan (Jun 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The advice that I received from the Golfing Manager at the club this afternoon is that: as the revetted faces of the bunkers *are not* specifically identified as Immovable Obstructions (from which free relief is given) they are therefore an integral part of the course.
.
		
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A revetted bunker face is not an immovable obstruction if it constructed from turf(s) or other natural substance (although I have only seen turf used).
However, if it is constructed from or includes artificial material then it is an immovable obstruction.

Incidentally, an Obstruction is _Any artificial object_ . An Integral Object is an artificial object _defined by the Committee _(as such).
Integral Part of the Course is no longer a defined term and does not appear in the rules.


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## Wolf (Jun 29, 2019)

rulefan said:



			A revetted bunker face is not an immovable obstruction if it constructed from turf(s) or other natural substance (although I have only seen turf used).
However, if it is constructed from or includes artificial material then it is an immovable obstruction.

Incidentally, an Obstruction is _Any artificial object_ . An Integral Object is an artificial object _defined by the Committee _(as such).
Integral Part of the Course is no longer a defined term and does not appear in the rules.
		
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So does that mean after all the pointless back and forth on this thread it really doesn't matter where the rake is left as we'd be entitled to relief under the rules of golf. 

Absolutely brilliant and sums up the pointlessness of clubs requests ðŸ˜‚


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## rulefan (Jun 29, 2019)

Are you talking about artificial or turf revetted faces?
Under what rule do you suggest you would get relief?
You only get free relief from an IO by dropping in the bunker not nearer the hole. So that doesn't help if the ball is trapped by a rake at the back of a bunker.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 29, 2019)

rulefan said:



			Are you talking about artificial or turf revetted faces?
Under what rule do you suggest you would get relief?
You only get free relief from an IO by dropping in the bunker not nearer the hole. So that doesn't help if the ball is trapped by a rake at the back of a bunker.
		
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It does if you are going to hit it in backswing or downswing .
But if you have nowhere to drop thatâ€™s a bit unfair as by the look of the bunkers in pics itâ€™s all the way around.

We have had this problem with steps put in the bunkers depending where they put the flag you can have nowhere (not nearer the hole)  to drop.
So in major comps the flags are placed to make sure the players have relief in the bunker.

Where will this using artificial stuff end maybe hybrid greens .


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 29, 2019)

rulefan said:



			A revetted bunker face is not an immovable obstruction if it constructed from turf(s) or other natural substance (although I have only seen turf used).
However, if it is constructed from or includes artificial material then it is an immovable obstruction.

Incidentally, an Obstruction is _Any artificial object_ . An Integral Object is an artificial object _defined by the Committee _(as such).
Integral Part of the Course is no longer a defined term and does not appear in the rules.
		
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I will check again but the answer I got from the club was very clear- and our Golf Manager is usually pretty hot on the new rules.  We absolutely do NOT get relief from the revetted face of the bunker - clearly otherwise would be complete nonsense.  That the layers of the revetting are old astroturf is surely neither here nor there - it is simply the construction of the bunker.  There is nothing artificial that is not a designed part of the course.  Besides - his strong view was that unless something is declared in our LRs to be an IO then, by definition, it is *not *an IO.

But I'd recheck.

BTW where do the rules say that a revetted face can *only *be constructed using turf(s) or other natural substance.  Also whilst what you have written implies natural turf - is that actually the case - because 'turf' could include 'astroturf'.


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## rulefan (Jun 29, 2019)

If the revetted turfs include a synthetic material (ie an artificial product), the synthetic material is an obstruction. If it doesn't, it isn't. If the latter is true of your bunkers, your Golf Manager is right. 
The new rules have not changed anything.

*Obstruction*
Any artificial object


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 29, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I will check again but the answer I got from the club was very clear- and our Golf Manager is usually pretty hot on the new rules.  We absolutely do NOT get relief from the revetted face of the bunker - clearly otherwise would be complete nonsense.  That the layers of the revetting are old astroturf is surely neither here nor there - it is simply the construction of the bunker.  There is nothing artificial that is not a designed part of the course.  Besides - his strong view was that unless something is declared in our LRs to be an IO then, by definition, it is *not *an IO.

But I'd recheck.

BTW where do the rules say that a revetted face can *only *be constructed using turf(s) or other natural substance.  Also whilst what you have written implies natural turf - is that actually the case - because 'turf' could include 'astroturf'.
		
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AstroTurf is not turf itâ€™s plastic.


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## rulefan (Jun 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			BTW where do the rules say that a revetted face can *only *be constructed using turf(s) or other natural substance.
		
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I didn't say that



			Also whilst what you have written implies natural turf - is that actually the case - because 'turf' could include 'astroturf'.
		
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Where did you get that? I have mentioned artificial material more than once (see eg #165). "AstroTurf" is a brand of artificial turf made of plastic. It is not turf.
Turf - the surface layer of land on which grass is growing, consisting of the grass and the soil in which its roots grow, or a piece of this that is cut from the ground..

But see this: http://blog.standrews.com/2013/08/15/astroturf-faced-bunkers/

Of course, such a bunker face should be declared to be an Integral Object so that players would not get undue free relief


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## Jacko_G (Jun 30, 2019)

Your in a bunker - deal with it.

Play the shot and move on. That's the simple answer.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 30, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Your in a bunker - deal with it.

Play the shot and move on. That's the simple answer.
		
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The point of discussion is that @rulefan is telling me that as the revetted faces of our bunkers are made of astroturf, then unless a LR say otherwise I can take relief from the revetted face as it comprises artifical material and is hence an Immovable Obstruction.  That would clearly be nonsense.  As we do not have such a rule then if @rulefan is correct then I have to raise this with the club.


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## rulefan (Jun 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The point of discussion is that @rulefan is telling me that as the revetted faces of our bunkers are made of astroturf, then unless a LR say otherwise I can take relief from the revetted face as it comprises artifical material and is hence an Immovable Obstruction.  That would clearly be nonsense.  As we do not have such a rule then if @rulefan is correct then I have to raise this with the club.
		
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What makes you think that astroturf has been used? It is not cheap and not that common.


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## Liverpoolphil (Jun 30, 2019)

rulefan said:



			What makes you think that astroturf has been used? It is not cheap and not that common.
		
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Because it has - ecobunker


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## Jacko_G (Jun 30, 2019)

"retaining artificial walls and pilings when located in a penalty are integral objects"


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The point of discussion is that @rulefan is telling me that as the revetted faces of our bunkers are made of astroturf, then unless a LR say otherwise I can take relief from the revetted face as it comprises artifical material and is hence an Immovable Obstruction.  That would clearly be nonsense.  As we do not have such a rule then if @rulefan is correct then I have to raise this with the club.
		
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Surely the powers that be at your club would have been made aware of this when the bunkers were first commissioned.
Somebody should have picked this up.

I really canâ€™t see whatâ€™s â€œ(eco) about putting a load of plastic in the ground.
Itâ€™s for less maintenance as it lasts longer than natural turf.


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## clubchamp98 (Jun 30, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			"retaining artificial walls and pilings when located in a penalty are integral objects"
		
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There not in the penalty area ,that is only the sand as far as I am aware.


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## rulefan (Jun 30, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			"retaining artificial walls and pilings when located in a penalty are integral objects"
		
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When did a bunker become a penalty area?


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## Jacko_G (Jun 30, 2019)

rulefan said:



			When did a bunker become a penalty area?
		
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That's true. 

However I still can't see how you can claim relief from the face being made of AstroTurf.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 30, 2019)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Because it has - ecobunker







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Thanks for putting that up @LP...ecobunkers are real...and you can see our Head Greenkeeper putting the rake in the 'club preferred position'


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## rulefan (Jun 30, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			That's true.

However I still can't see how you can claim relief from the face being made of AstroTurf.
		
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Because it is an artificial object (ie immovable obstruction) unless the committee has deemed it to be an integral object.
See rule 16.1c and the definitions


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## williamalex1 (Jun 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thanks for putting that up @LP...ecobunkers are real...and you can see our Head Greenkeeper putting the rake in the 'club preferred position' 

Click to expand...

I'm a bit confused about relief area from the steps if you're in the bunker, where could you drop in that bunker that's not nearer the hole ?. 
Great idea about how to rake a bunker


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## rulefan (Jul 1, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			I'm a bit confused about relief area from the steps if you're in the bunker, where could you drop in that bunker that's not nearer the hole ?.
		
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That's why steps should really be at the side of the bunker.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 1, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			I'm a bit confused about relief area from the steps if you're in the bunker, where could you drop in that bunker that's not nearer the hole ?.
Great idea about how to rake a bunker 

Click to expand...

See post #163. We have that problem.
We also had a problem in a comp recently. Guy playing in an open refused to play a shot in the bunker because he could see the fibres of the lining coming through the sand .
Turns out he was correct as the linings are not natural and deemed an IO.
He had to find a lie where the sand is deeper so he would not hit the lining, itâ€™s all getting a bit silly.
Because the lining is in all the bunker how would you know how deep the sand is?

The courses are using more and more artificial things where will it end.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 1, 2019)

So what I am getting from this discussion is that - unless the astroturf revetting is declared (under a local rule?) to be an Integral Object under 16.1c (and associated definitions) then a player would be able to claim free relief from the face of a bunker if it interfered with his stance or swing.


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## Wolf (Jul 1, 2019)

Csnt believe this thread still running. 

But interesting to see that after all the issues of telling off and take placement the biggest issue to come out of it is the committee have potentially made an oversight cock up with regards to rules meaning free relief anyway ðŸ˜‚

Also on the point of the steps what relief is meant to be taken as we all know we're not allowed to drop nearer the hole, csnt drop out of bunker without a penalty but are entitled to relief because its a man made object ....  Unless they've stipulated the exact relief to be taken I'd say the club have made a faux pas


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## sunshine (Jul 1, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			See post #163. We have that problem.
We also had a problem in a comp recently. Guy playing in an open refused to play a shot in the bunker because he could see the fibres of the lining coming through the sand .
Turns out he was correct as the linings are not natural and deemed an IO.
He had to find a lie where the sand is deeper so he would not hit the lining, itâ€™s all getting a bit silly.
Because the lining is in all the bunker how would you know how deep the sand is?

The courses are using more and more artificial things where will it end.
		
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Didn't this happen in a tour event and Branden Grace got relief? Might not be him, but I'm sure it was a South African.


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## Jacko_G (Jul 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So what I am getting from this discussion is that - unless the astroturf revetting is declared (under a local rule?) to be an Integral Object under 16.1c (and associated definitions) then a player would be able to claim free relief from the face of a bunker if it interfered with his stance or swing.
		
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My reading of the rule quoted by rulefan is that he is correct!

Could all come down to where the ball lies in relation to the face.


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## rulefan (Jul 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			So what I am getting from this discussion is that - unless the astroturf revetting is declared (under a local rule?) to be an Integral Object under 16.1c (and associated definitions) then a player would be able to claim free relief from the face of a bunker if it interfered with his stance or swing.
		
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Exactly. But his drop would have to be 'not nearer the hole' and in the bunker. Outside the bunker would cost a stroke.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 1, 2019)

And so I have been reading Rule 16.c and the definitions.

"If your ball is in a bunker and there is interference by an _abnormal course condition ..._ you may take Free Relief..."

Definition breadcrumb trail...

_Abnormal Course Condition>Immovable Obstruction>Obstruction>Integral Object>_An artificial object defined by the Committee as part of the challenge of playing the course from which free relief is not allowed.

And this definition is what we want for the revetted faces of our bunkers.

So all clear it would seem.  The Committee have to define the faces as _Integral Objects - _about which the the final question I have is raised.  In what context or using what mechanism would the Committee actually make and make known this definition.  This is just for my information as our appropriate Committee will know how to do it - I am just interested. Would that be through a Local Rule?


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## rulefan (Jul 1, 2019)

Yes.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so I have been reading Rule 16.c and the definitions.

"If your ball is in a bunker and there is interference by an _abnormal course condition ..._ you may take Free Relief..."

Definition breadcrumb trail...

_Abnormal Course Condition>Immovable Obstruction>Obstruction>Integral Object>_An artificial object defined by the Committee as part of the challenge of playing the course from which free relief is not allowed.

And this definition is what we want for the revetted faces of our bunkers.

So all clear it would seem.  The Committee have to define the faces as _Integral Objects - _about which the the final question I have is raised.  In what context or using what mechanism would the Committee actually make and make known this definition.  This is just for my information as our appropriate Committee will know how to do it - I am just interested. Would that be through a Local Rule?
		
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Basically itâ€™s like an artificial path that you donâ€™t get relief from.
You just have to play it.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 1, 2019)

sunshine said:



			Didn't this happen in a tour event and Branden Grace got relief? Might not be him, but I'm sure it was a South African.
		
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A lad at my place played his shot and ripped a hole in the lining.
Stopped his club stone dead!
He badly sprained his wrist and didnâ€™t play for weeks.
Clubs must be careful with all this artificial stuff on the course as itâ€™s only a matter of time before someone sues them for an injury.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 1, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Basically itâ€™s like an artificial path that you donâ€™t get relief from.
You just have to play it.
		
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Agreed - where would a player find put that artificial paths have been identified and declared to be Integral Objects.  Would it be stated on the scorecard?


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 1, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Agreed - where would a player find put that artificial paths have been identified and declared to be Integral Objects.  Would it be stated on the scorecard?
		
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Yes on the card , but on the noticeboards as well with a reference on the card.
With all the local rules we will need bigger cards.
The problem is some courses you get relief from artificial IO.
But some you donâ€™t ,thereâ€™s no consistency.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 2, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes on the card , but on the noticeboards as well with a reference on the card.
With all the local rules we will need bigger cards.
The problem is some courses you get relief from artificial IO.
But some you donâ€™t ,thereâ€™s no consistency.
		
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In that case (I didn't realise that) I guess that it is possible that at my place there is a general 'cover-all' rule that states there is no relief from artificial Integral Objects - and if that were the case then we wouldn't have to have anything specifically stated about the revetted faces.

This has been a useful discussion for me so thanks all.  I'll check with the club and I can now state the exact rule and definitions


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## rulefan (Jul 2, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I guess that it is possible that at my place there is a general 'cover-all' rule that states there is no relief from artificial Integral Objects - and if that were the case then we wouldn't have to have anything specifically stated about the revetted faces.
		
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It would be very unusual for a club to declare *all* Immovable Obstructions (which is what such things are) as Integral Objects. In fact I have never seen such a Local Rule.
It is more common for structures which predate the course (eg stone barns or internal walls) to be identified individually. The most well known one is probably the track on the 17th 'Road Hole' at St Andrews


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 21, 2019)

Ah well - into one of our new bunkers yesterday I went - and found my ball not 15" from the sheer 18" artificial turf revetted rear face of the bunker - with  absolutely no shot towards the green - and the one direction I could hit out sideways had me heading towards bushes not 4yds from the edge of the bunker.  Not great - I could see my ball disappearing deep in the shrubbery.

And so I said to my 3 playing colleagues - I will take a free drop in the bunker not nearer the hole due to my swing being impeded by an immovable artificial obstruction (in the case yesterday I could do that and I could drop it in a place that I would have a shot to the flag - never mind the green - so very beneficial).  The looks were rather incredulous.  I took out our scorecard and on the back was a paragraph called *Immovable Obstructions. * No mention in that paragraph of our artificial revetted bunker faces - and no mention on the card of the revetted faces being _Integral Objects.  _

As it happens I didn't take relief as my round had by then gone for a burton - and I fancied just having a go getting it out as if I did not know the ruling I could have used - I didn't get it out - and only just got it out next go.

We have a course update forum this coming week.  I think I shall bring it up.


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## rulefan (Jul 21, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I took out our scorecard and on the back was a paragraph called *Immovable Obstructions. *

Click to expand...

What does it say?




			No mention in that paragraph of our artificial revetted bunker faces - and no mention on the card of the revetted faces being _Integral Objects.  _

Click to expand...

That's good


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 22, 2019)

*Relief from Immovable Obstructions (Rule 16.1b)*

a) Sprinkler heads, bunker drainage plugs, hydrant boxes, wooden steps and grass collection pits as marked by black and white stakes.
b) Young trees, if staked, the ball MUST be lifted.
c) All access roads through the course (including behind the 9th green) and all paths with artificial surfaces, are immovable obstructions

All other paths and tracks are integral parts of the course.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



*Relief from Immovable Obstructions (Rule 16.1b)*

a) Sprinkler heads, bunker drainage plugs, hydrant boxes, wooden steps and grass collection pits as marked by black and white stakes.
b) Young trees, if staked, the ball MUST be lifted.
c) All access roads through the course (including behind the 9th green) and all paths with artificial surfaces, are immovable obstructions

All other paths and tracks are integral parts of the course.
		
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Your reverted faces are just like vertical paths!
Probably made of the material from the old paths.

Have the committee made a decision yet for relief or not.?


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## Bunkermagnet (Jul 22, 2019)

How can you claim relief from a bunker face, natural or not.....its the bunker face and therefore part of the hazard. Surely?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 22, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			How can you claim relief from a bunker face, natural or not.....its the bunker face and therefore part of the hazard. Surely?

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Nope - bunker is defined by the sand.  See Definitions.  

_*Bunker*

A specially prepared area of sand....These are not part of a bunker:_

_A lip, wall or face at the edge of the prepared area and consisting of soil, grass, stacked turf or artificial materials_

The steps into our bunkers are covered.  The face defining the edge of the bunker currently is not.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 22, 2019)

Bunkermagnet said:



			How can you claim relief from a bunker face, natural or not.....its the bunker face and therefore part of the hazard. Surely?

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Bunker face is not in the bunker itâ€™s in the general area.
Anything artificial you can claim relief for immovable obstruction.
Unless the committee says otherwise.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 22, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Your reverted faces are just like vertical paths!
Probably made of the material from the old paths.

Have the committee made a decision yet for relief or not.?
		
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Not according to definitions - and not made of material from old paths - but good try 

Members meeting on Thursday looking at proposals for course development.  If it isn't on the agenda I shall raise it or have it raised.


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## clubchamp98 (Jul 22, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not according to definitions - and not made of material from old paths - but good try 

Members meeting on Thursday looking at proposals for course development.  If it isn't on the agenda I shall raise it or have it raised.
		
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Out of interest what are they made of?
Most I have seen are old range mats or paths.
Have you heard of any members claiming relief yet for this?.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jul 22, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Out of interest what are they made of?
Most I have seen are old range mats or paths.
Have you heard of any members claiming relief yet for this?.
		
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They are made of old astroturf - layered to make a revetted 360* surround to the bunker.  I think that we buy the astrotuf in from the company holding the licencing - it is not our own.

I have not heard of anyone claiming relief - though as things stands I am sure that you should be able to do so...That would be absurd but Nicklaus always said 'know the rules well and save a couple of shots a round'

Unfortunately I got the date of the course evening wrong - it was last Thursday and I was in London all week...

Anyway - I had raised it with the club's Business Manager and Pro a few weeks ago so maybe it was covered.  I will ask.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 5, 2019)

Well - the considered view of the club is that:

_The bunker faces are, as far as we are concerned, an â€˜integral objectâ€™ with no relief option.  

...it is commonly accepted among golfers that the revetted â€˜artificial turfâ€™ faces of our Eco-Bunkers are integral parts of the course, much like a revetted face built from real turf. They are designed to act and affect play in the same way as a face constructed with real turf,  it would seem blatantly unfair to assume them as otherwise. _

The club is not aware of anyone raising the question or seeking relief - but they will monitor things.


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## rulefan (Aug 5, 2019)

If the club considers them to be an integral object they need to be declared/deemed to be so by Local Rule


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 5, 2019)

rulefan said:



			If the club considers them to be an integral object they need to be declared/deemed to be so by Local Rule
		
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I said as much - they do not agree.

Their view is simply that they are no different from grass revetting..._it would seem blatantly unfair to assume them as otherwise._ 

The club (quite rightly) want to keep the number of LRs to a minimum - but if I could point them to something that supports what you (and I) say then they will reconsider - they are monitoring just in case someone claims relief.  

I quote below more fully form the response I got (I am sure the club will not be upset at me doing so as I am only seeking clarifications to avoid a potential issue).

####

The bunker faces are, as far as we are concerned, an â€˜integral objectâ€™ with no relief option. They are not technically part of the bunker either (as per the definition you cited)

The definition from the rules  below suggest what should typically be regarded as obstructions. Rule 2.3 covers the relief options which again refers to Integral objects.

*Any artificial object except for integral objects and boundary objects.*

Examples of _obstructions_:

Artificially surfaced roads and paths, including their artificial borders.
Buildings and rain shelters.
Sprinkler heads, drains and irrigation or control boxes.
Stakes, walls, railings and fences (*but* not when they are boundary objects that define or show the boundary edge of the course).
Golf carts, mowers, cars and other vehicles.
Waste containers, signposts and benches.
Player equipment, flagsticks and rakes.
*2.3*

Objects or Conditions That Can Interfere with Play

Certain Rules may give free relief (relief with no penalty) from interference by certain defined objects or conditions, such as:

Â·         Loose impediments (Rule 15.1),

Â·         Movable obstructions (Rule 15.2), and

Â·         Abnormal course conditions, which are animal holes, ground under repair, immovable obstructions and temporary water (Rule 16.1).

*But there is no free relief from boundary objects or integral objects that interfere with play.*


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## rulefan (Aug 5, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The definition from the rules  below suggest what should typically be regarded as obstructions. Rule 2.3 covers the relief options which again refers to Integral objects.

*Any artificial object except for integral objects and boundary objects.*

Click to expand...

May I suggest you refer the committee to the Definition of Integral Object. If they are* not defined *as such by the committee, they are not Integral Objects


*Integral Object*

An artificial object *defined by the Committee *as part of the challenge of playing the course from which free relief is not allowed.
.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 6, 2019)

rulefan said:



			May I suggest you refer the committee to the Definition of Integral Object. If they are* not defined *as such by the committee, they are not Integral Objects


*Integral Object*

An artificial object *defined by the Committee *as part of the challenge of playing the course from which free relief is not allowed.
.
		
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Thanks @rulefan - that seems obvious and pretty conclusive to me.  An artifical object is not an Integral Object *unless *the Committee has specifically defines it as being one.

I can hear the response - 'revetted bunker surrounds are not an object, they are part of the construction of the course'...


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thanks @rulefan - that seems obvious and pretty conclusive to me.  An artifical object is not an Integral Object *unless *the Committee has specifically defines it as being one.

I can hear the response - 'revetted bunker surrounds are not an object, they are part of the construction of the course'...

Click to expand...

The obvious answer to that is â€œ can you show me where you grew the turfsâ€
Sounds like your committee is just being awkward, it may take someone taking relief to wake them up.!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 6, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			The obvious answer to that is â€œ can you show me where you grew the turfsâ€
Sounds like your committee is just being awkward, it may take someone taking relief to wake them up.!
		
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Don't think anyone is being awkward - just not quite getting it as it seems (and is) absurd that anyone might think it OK to take free relief from the surrounds of a bunker...and so interpreting things from the 'what is reasonable and sensible' point of view.

What surprises me a lot is that - if we are right - the company the club licences the construction from don't seem to have anything on their website about what clubs have to do to avoid questions such as that I've raised.  Seems such an obvious thing for the company to do - to make sure clubs understand.  Maybe they think it'll put customers off.


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## rulefan (Aug 6, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Thanks @rulefan - that seems obvious and pretty conclusive to me.  An artifical object is not an Integral Object *unless *the Committee has specifically defines it as being one.

I can hear the response - 'revetted bunker surrounds are not an object, they are part of the construction of the course'...

Click to expand...

For the moment, forget the revetted part. Concentrate on the astroturf. Is astroturf artificial or natural?
The Rules do not define an object but does astroturf or plastic grass satisfy a normal dictionary definition?
_A specific, individual, material entity, especially one that is not living or not sentient. 
Something material that may be perceived by the senses 
Anything that is visible or tangible and is relatively stable in form. _


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 6, 2019)

rulefan said:



			For the moment, forget the revetted part. Concentrate on the astroturf. Is astroturf artificial or natural?
The Rules do not define an object but does astroturf or plastic grass satisfy a normal dictionary definition?
_A specific, individual, material entity, especially one that is not living or not sentient. 
Something material that may be perceived by the senses 
Anything that is visible or tangible and is relatively stable in form. _

Click to expand...

Agree.  View that was verbally expressed to me was the fact that the turf being used is artificial is irrelevant - it's turf being used to construct part of the course and hence by implication an integral object.  That's the line,  but let's see what I get back.

But as mentioned - we are building the bunkers under licence - and the patent holders do not have anything on their website giving guidance in respect of implications for any local rule.  Maybe they just expect clubs to know what's artificial and what is not...

I quote below from *Committee Procedures H(2) *- does this make it absolutely clear what the committee should do?  I think that it must nail it!  What you think @rulefan and others

_Integral objects are artificial objects from which free relief is not available. Examples of objects that the Committee can choose to designate as integral objects include: _

_Objects such as artificial walls or pilings that are inside penalty areas *or artificial walls or liners of bunkers. *For example, when these are close to the edge of the penalty area, a player whose ball is just outside the penalty area could be standing on the wall and get free relief while the player whose ball is just inside the penalty area does not._
_The Committee should define these objects as integral objects in the Local Rules (see Model Local Rule F-1)._


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 6, 2019)

Yes I think it does ,but they still have to designate them as integral objects.

I think this was challenged originally because a golfer broke his wrist hitting one of these artificial walls .
His complaint was you can take a divot out of natural turf but you canâ€™t out of this AstroTurf itâ€™s to tough,
That is why itâ€™s used it lasts much longer.


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## Hobbit (Aug 6, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes I think it does ,but they still have to designate them as integral objects.

I think this was challenged originally because a golfer broke his wrist hitting one of these artificial walls .
His complaint was you can take a divot out of natural turf but you canâ€™t out of this AstroTurf itâ€™s to tough,
That is why itâ€™s used it lasts much longer.
		
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You could break your wrist on a tree if you're daft enough to try an swing through it... same applies to a bunker face. Sorry but I'm in the play it as it lies where bunker faces are concerned. Next you'll see pros asking can they drop it out of the rough coz its too tough


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## rulefan (Aug 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			Sorry but I'm in the play it as it lies where bunker faces are concerned. Next you'll see pros asking can they drop it out of the rough coz its too tough

Click to expand...

The play it as it lies concept predates the concept of artificial material being used in the face of a bunker. So making a bunker face artificial (ie an obstruction), a new dimension has been introduced. The simple solution is to declare such faces to be integral objects. The issue has now gone away. Both in respect of 'play it as it lies' and clarifying the situation for members and visitors.


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## williamalex1 (Aug 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You could break your wrist on a tree if you're daft enough to try an swing through it... same applies to a bunker face. Sorry but I'm in the play it as it lies where bunker faces are concerned. Next you'll see pros asking can they drop it out of the rough coz its too tough

Click to expand...

Who's being a Luddite now


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 6, 2019)

Hobbit said:



			You could break your wrist on a tree if you're daft enough to try an swing through it... same applies to a bunker face. Sorry but I'm in the play it as it lies where bunker faces are concerned. Next you'll see pros asking can they drop it out of the rough coz its too tough

Click to expand...

Yes you are correct . But you donâ€™t see many plastic trees on golf courses.
The only one I have seen was a phone mast .


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## rulefan (Aug 7, 2019)

I have received confirmation from the R&A that _such a face is an immovable obstruction by definition.  If the club doesnâ€™t want to give free relief, then the committee would have to declare it an integral object. _


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 7, 2019)

rulefan said:



			I have received confirmation from the R&A that _such a face is an immovable obstruction by definition.  If the club doesnâ€™t want to give free relief, then the committee would have to declare it an integral object. _

Click to expand...

brilliant - I will refer the club to this.

Just want to make sure the club does not find itself having to deal with an absurd 'free relief away from bunker surround' situation in any of our comps - especially open ones.


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 7, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			brilliant - I will refer the club to this.

Just want to make sure the club does not find itself having to deal with an absurd 'free relief way from bunker surround' situation in any of our comps - especially open ones.
		
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Just an aside from this .
If a professional tournament was held at this venue would this local rule apply to the pros.?
Letâ€™s be honest they are pretty good at using the rules to their advantage.
We have an internal OBB which was removed for a pro tournament .


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## rulefan (Aug 7, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Just an aside from this .
If a professional tournament was held at this venue would this local rule apply to the pros.?
		
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IMO, almost certainly, yes.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 7, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Just an aside from this .
If a professional tournament was held at this venue would this local rule apply to the pros.?
Letâ€™s be honest they are pretty good at using the rules to their advantage.
We have an internal OBB which was removed for a pro tournament .
		
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And we do host the occasional PGA South regional pro tour event - plus pro-ams.  

Separate question is whether or not the pros would know they could take free relief if we do not do what we must?


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 7, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And we do host the occasional PGA South regional pro tour event - plus pro-ams.  

Separate question is whether or not the pros would know they could take free relief if we do not do what we must?
		
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They would know ,itâ€™s their job.


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## rulefan (Aug 7, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And we do host the occasional PGA South regional pro tour event - plus pro-ams. 

Separate question is whether or not the pros would know they could take free relief if we do not do what we must?
		
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If they are in a bunker and see a trace of astroturf, take relief and find the LR is in force but not on the hard card, there would be all hell let loose.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 27, 2019)

And so...playing over the weekend it appears that we do not have a LR in place to define artificial turf revetted surrounds to our bunkers as _Integral Objects._  Indeed when I mentioned this issue to our past Chairman on Saturday he scoffed at the very idea that a player could get free relief from such a surround.

Next weekend is our Club Champs weekend.  And I cast forward my thoughts to the 18th green on the first day... I am not aware of a new LR in place

I am in a greenside bunker - and I find myself with swing impeded by an artificial turf surround.  I need to get down in two to be certain of qualifying for Round Two.  Down in three will almost certainly see me qualify.  Any more than that I'm oot.

The only shot I have is sideways towards deep rough only yards from the bunker and with OoB lurking just too close for comfort.  Come out too heavy and I'm in deep doggie and in great danger of not qualifying. Indeed even if I come out well I still have a very difficult up and down.

Or do I take free relief in the bunker - even if I am aware that the club intends to put a LR in place - a relief that will enable me to play a shot to the green and a good chance of an up and down - at worse a three.


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## Marshy77 (Aug 27, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And so...playing over the weekend it appears that we do not have a LR in place to define artificial turf revetted surrounds to our bunkers as _Integral Objects._  Indeed when I mentioned this issue to our past Chairman on Saturday he scoffed at the very idea that a player could get free relief from such a surround.

Next weekend is our Club Champs weekend.  And I cast forward my thoughts to the 18th green on the first day... I am not aware of a new LR in place

I am in a greenside bunker - and I find myself with swing impeded by an artificial turf surround.  I need to get down in two to be certain of qualifying for Round Two.  Down in three will almost certainly see me qualify.  Any more than that I'm oot.

The only shot I have is sideways towards deep rough only yards from the bunker and with OoB lurking just too close for comfort.  Come out too heavy and I'm in deep doggie and in great danger of not qualifying. Indeed even if I come out well I still have a very difficult up and down.

Or do I take free relief in the bunker - even if I am aware that the club intends to put a LR in place - a relief that will enable me to play a shot to the green and a good chance of an up and down - at worse a three.
		
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I may be reading this wrong but you can't take a free drop if something isn't in place now.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 27, 2019)

Marshy77 said:



			I may be reading this wrong but you can't take a free drop if something isn't in place now.
		
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As of today no LR in place today - and I am thinking that none will be in place next weekend - even although I believe that the club now recognises the need for one.  My scenario for the coming weekend says 'no LR in place though one may be coming'

Do I take free relief...


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## rulefan (Aug 27, 2019)

Yes. Play to the Rules in force.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 27, 2019)

rulefan said:



			Yes. Play to the Rules in force.
		
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I would normally not do so on grounds of it being against 'the spirit of the game' - but surely 'the spirit of the game' is to play to the rules whilst adhering to golf etiquette. 

And even if I knew (as I do) that a LR was on the way - if it were not in place then...

However were I do do this in such a scenario that might make me more unpopular than I already am...


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## Marshy77 (Aug 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I would normally not do so on grounds of it being against 'the spirit of the game' - but surely 'the spirit of the game' is to play to the rules whilst adhering to golf etiquette.

And even if I knew (as I do) that a LR was on the way - if it were not in place then...

However were I do do this in such a scenario that might make me more unpopular than I already am... 

Click to expand...

By playing to the rules in force now? How can that make you unpopular? Surely you'd be playing to the rules like everybody else


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## Slab (Aug 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I would normally not do so on grounds of it being against 'the spirit of the game' - but surely 'the spirit of the game' is to play to the rules whilst adhering to golf etiquette.

And even if I knew (as I do) that a LR was on the way - if it were not in place then...

However were I do do this in such a scenario that might make me more unpopular than I already am... 

Click to expand...

My advice; just club-up!


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 28, 2019)

Play to the rules.
Your club has realised there is a need for a rule change 
But until itâ€™s in place you play to the rule in force now.

So you sit in the club house and you have missed qualification by a shot.
Guy next to you says â€œ I had the same thing but took relief as the LR isnâ€™t in place yetâ€
He qualifies ???? You donâ€™t!!!


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 28, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Play to the rules.
Your club has realised there is a need for a rule change
But until itâ€™s in place you play to the rule in force now.

So you sit in the club house and you have missed qualification by a shot.
Guy next to you says â€œ I had the same thing but took relief as the LR isnâ€™t in place yetâ€
He qualifies ???? You donâ€™t!!!
		
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I like the thinking.  That the, now quite many, in the club I have discussed this with (including the Club Pros; Club Manager; ex-Chairman, and a committee member or two) might scoff incredulously and dismiss it as nonsense does not mean I am wrong and nor does it mean that others in the club do no know about it.

I have asked the club if there is going to be anything in place for Saturday - if they say Not then I will mention that in the unlikely event of the scenario arising I will take advantage of the rules.  In fact I could easily find myself in a bunker where the surround interferes with my swing or follow-through on some shots I might play, even though it might not prevent me playing a shot.  I might even then take relief in such circumstances.

We have a few bunkers that are very deep greenside edge - a couple over 6ft deep from sand level to green level.  If I was close to the face of one of these - or indeed close to the face of ANY bunker - why would I not drop back into the middle of the bunker and away from the face if the 'face' prevented a full follow-through.

*For the @rulies*: Does the rule that gives free relief from an immovable artificial obstruction (not declared an _Integral Object_) extend to my* follow-through*?


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 28, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I like the thinking.  That the, now quite many, in the club I have discussed this with (including the Club Pros; Club Manager; ex-Chairman, and a committee member or two) might scoff incredulously and dismiss it as nonsense does not mean I am wrong and nor does it mean that others in the club do no know about it.

I have asked the club if there is going to be anything in place for Saturday - if they say Not then I will mention that in the unlikely event of the scenario arising I will take advantage of the rules.  In fact I could easily find myself in a bunker where the surround interferes with my swing or follow-through on some shots I might play, even though it might not prevent me playing a shot.  I might even then take relief in such circumstances.

We have a few bunkers that are very deep greenside edge - a couple over 6ft deep from sand level to green level.  If I was close to the face of one of these - or indeed close to the face of ANY bunker - why would I not drop back into the middle of the bunker and away from the face if the 'face' prevented a full follow-through.

*For the @rulies*: Does the rule that gives free relief from an immovable artificial obstruction (not declared an _Integral Object_) extend to my* follow-through*?
		
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Yes Iâ€™d does .
Interfering with your stance or swing.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 29, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			Yes Iâ€™d does .
Interfering with your stance or swing.
		
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Thanks sir!  And so - if my ball is in a bunker - even a fair distance from the face - but the face is high and I can see problems getting out - if I address my ball and do a follow through and my club strikes the face - then I can take free relief in the bunker - where it is full relief and I drop within one club length of that reference point of full relief 16(c)

In this way I can drop away from the face of the bunker and I will potentially have a much easier shot out.

Or I take a 1 penalty shot and can drop outside of the bunker in accordance with 16(b)

I can just see the looks on my playing companions faces when I take free relief in the bunker away from the green-side face of the bunker surround.

This situation has happened a few times to me with our new bunkers.  With the very steep surrounds, we have the sand in the bunker sloped and smoothed so that a ball will run away from the steep sides into the middle of a bunker.  But that does not always happen - especially if the sand has not been properly smoothed, and the ball holds up close to the face.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 30, 2019)

hmmm...dear forummers...in Club Champs tomorrow and Sunday - do I take free relief from the bunker front face if I can drop in the bunker at a place where I have an easier shot to get out.

Seriously conflicted.

I am thinking that I may be the only member who knows of the ruling that enables me to do that.


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## williamalex1 (Aug 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			hmmm...dear forummers...in Club Champs tomorrow and Sunday - do I take free relief from the bunker front face if I can drop in the bunker at a place where I have an easier shot to get out.

Seriously conflicted.

I am thinking that I may be the only member who knows of the ruling that enables me to do that.
		
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Don't go in the bunker , sorted


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Aug 30, 2019)

williamalex1 said:



			Don't go in the bunker , sorted 

Click to expand...

Bleedin' 'eck Billy - never thocht o that. 

Impeding my backswing is one thing - restricting my follow-through is quite another.  The former is not so likely - the latter is very likely.


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## clubchamp98 (Aug 30, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			hmmm...dear forummers...in Club Champs tomorrow and Sunday - do I take free relief from the bunker front face if I can drop in the bunker at a place where I have an easier shot to get out.

Seriously conflicted.

I am thinking that I may be the only member who knows of the ruling that enables me to do that.
		
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Why just play to the rules.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 2, 2019)

And so - I arrived Saturday morning for 1st round of Club Champs - and nothing had been done about the need for a LR.  I was in the last group off.

I explained my concern and how I was conflicted about taking advantage of my understanding when I pretty much knew that no other player would know.  Suggestion was made that a notice on a new LR declaring the bunker surrounds as _Integral Objects _be put up in the Pro Shop there and then if it made me happy; and I said that that would suit me fine.

As it happens over 36 holes I think I only had one instance where I might have used it - on the first hole of the 36 I played 

But in agreeing to the LR being put up - whether or not that was done in accordance with how LRs are set out - it did for me, as in my head it stopped me thinking about or actually taking advantage of the free relief otherwise available.

Was that a daft thing for me to do ?  You might well think so - but for me - it got rid of my concerns and as far as I was concerned I was simply competing in the spirit of the game.

I played rubbish in any case...


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## rulefan (Sep 2, 2019)

Had all the others started?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 2, 2019)

rulefan said:



			Had all the others started?
		
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Yes - other than my two playing companions.

I'm guessing that the posting of the LR after 147 players ahead of my three ball had started will have made the LR invalid for the competition (in fact it was invalid if posted after the 1st player teed off).   I knew that - but in myself I felt better - if only for me - as I knew it should have been there 

I didn't want to be in a position to take advantage of a ruling that not one other player in the comp would have known about.  For me - that would have been wrong.


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## rulefan (Sep 2, 2019)

So you finished with a warm glow regardless of your score


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 2, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Yes - other than my two playing companions.

I'm guessing that the posting of the LR after 147 players ahead of my three ball had started will have made the LR invalid for the competition (in fact it was invalid if posted after the 1st player teed off).   I knew that - but in myself I felt better - if only for me - as I knew it should have been there 

I didn't want to be in a position to take advantage of a ruling that not one other player in the comp would have known about.  For me - that would have been wrong.
		
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How do you know other players were not aware of a drop from the bunker faces?
I think you would be surprised how many players are on top of the rules, imo of course.
But you did what you thought was right and thatâ€™s good,


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 2, 2019)

rulefan said:



			So you finished with a warm glow regardless of your score 

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I finished miserable as sin!

But I *started *content as I didn't have the worry about what I'd do if the LR was not in place and I ended up in a new bunker with my swing impeded. Whether officially it was or not - as far as I was concerned it was.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 2, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			How do you know other players were not aware of a drop from the bunker faces?
I think you would be surprised how many players are on top of the rules, imo of course.
But you did what you thought was right and thatâ€™s good,
		
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Of course I don't *know *that for sure, but as none of: any member I have spoken with; the Club Manager, the Golf Manager; the three assistant pros; a senior competition pro I know at the club; an ex-chairman; and two Committee Members I spoke with, had heard of the ruling - then I assume no member had asked for clarification and I was as sure as I could be.


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## Marshy77 (Sep 3, 2019)

You can't take advantage of a ruling that's not in place even if you know it may be put in place in the future. It's a bit like asking for a penalty decision to be reviewed by VAR last season even though it wasn't in place until this season.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2019)

Marshy77 said:



			You can't take advantage of a ruling that's not in place even if you know it may be put in place in the future. It's a bit like asking for a penalty decision to be reviewed by VAR last season even though it wasn't in place until this season.
		
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The issue was in fact the opposite.

The LR that needs to be in place (and wasn't) would *prevent *me from taking free relief.

I did not feel at all comfortable knowing that I could take free relief, given I suspected that no other player would have known of the free relief available.  I know the LR was posted too late for it actually to be valid for the competition - but in my head I made it valid for me.

Yes I know that that probably sounds daft as I was potentially doing myself out of some shot-saving free relief in our main comp of the year - Club Champs...


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## Marshy77 (Sep 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The issue was in fact the opposite.

The LR that needs to be in place (and wasn't) would *prevent *me from taking free relief.

I did not feel at all comfortable knowing that I could take free relief, given I suspected that no other player would have known of the free relief available.  I know the LR was posted too late for it actually to be valid for the competition - but in my head I made it valid for me.

Yes I know that that probably sounds daft as I was potentially doing myself out of some shot-saving free relief in our main comp of the year - Club Champs...
		
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I meant asking for a rule that wasn't in place rather giving you an advantage or not.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 3, 2019)

The LR dosnt have to be in place at all.
All you do is just play it as it lies. 
If that is what suits you thatâ€™s fine.


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## robinthehood (Sep 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			The issue was in fact the opposite.

The LR that needs to be in place (and wasn't) would *prevent *me from taking free relief.

I did not feel at all comfortable knowing that I could take free relief, given I suspected that no other player would have known of the free relief available.  I know the LR was posted too late for it actually to be valid for the competition - but in my head I made it valid for me.

Yes I know that that probably sounds daft as I was potentially doing myself out of some shot-saving free relief in our main comp of the year - Club Champs...
		
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You sound like you're after a pat on the back. If the rule was a waste of time ,  just don't take relief if you feel so strongly about it.


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## backwoodsman (Sep 3, 2019)

I'm  thinking similar. Provided there's no conflict between them, play by the rules * and * your principles.  Relief may ge permissible but no-one's making you take it.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 3, 2019)

backwoodsman said:



			I'm  thinking similar. Provided there's no conflict between them, play by the rules * and * your principles.  Relief may ge permissible but no-one's making you take it.
		
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My concern was simply that I _*knew *_that I would be conflicted if I found myself in a position where it would have mattered to me - and it would have bothered me every time I played an approach to a green with one of more of our new bunkers, or worse found myself *in *one of the bunkers with restricted swing.  I decided to avoid such concerns by playing as if the LR was in place (even though it wasn't) - and that was helped by the pro sticking a notice up for me 

I'm not looking for any plaudits - I rather more expected to be told I was daft.  But there you go.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 3, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			My concern was simply that I _*knew *_that I would be conflicted if I found myself in a position where it would have mattered to me - and it would have bothered me every time I played an approach to a green with one of more of our new bunkers, or worse found myself *in *one of the bunkers with restricted swing.  I decided to avoid such concerns by playing as if the LR was in place (even though it wasn't) - and that was helped by the pro sticking a notice up for me 

I'm not looking for any plaudits - I rather more expected to be told I was daft.  But there you go.
		
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Your daft!!!


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## backwoodsman (Sep 4, 2019)

Not only daft but bizarre, then. Creating your own conflict where none exists.  If they do bring in the LR, you'll have to think hard to create a new personal dilemma while the rest of us just get on with things


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## pauljames87 (Sep 4, 2019)

Saw this at a course near me yesterday 

Thought was brilliant .. no question of where to put the rake


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## Slab (Sep 4, 2019)

pauljames87 said:










Saw this at a course near me yesterday

Thought was brilliant .. *no question of where to put the rake*

Click to expand...

Yeah all they need now is instructions on how to use it


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## Rlburnside (Sep 4, 2019)

pauljames87 said:










Saw this at a course near me yesterday

Thought was brilliant .. no question of where to put the rake
		
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Iâ€™ve played a few courses with rakes places like this itâ€™s a very good idea, it also helps if playing a new course that you can see where the bunkers are.


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## pauljames87 (Sep 4, 2019)

Rlburnside said:



			Iâ€™ve played a few courses with rakes places like this itâ€™s a very good idea, it also helps if playing a new course that you can see where the bunkers are.
		
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I thought was brilliant, havenâ€™t played there for a year and these were new since then 

Both me and my PP Commented how good an idea it was


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 4, 2019)

backwoodsman said:



			Not only daft but bizarre, then. Creating your own conflict where none exists.  If they do bring in the LR, you'll have to think hard to create a new personal dilemma while the rest of us just get on with things

Click to expand...

On the conflict that I _felt _*-* it's quite simple.  If I had occasion to take such free relief - as I could have done with no preventative LR in place, and I won the Club Champs handicap trophy by one shot - how might that have gone down with the player in 2nd place and others?  Not great methinks.  And frankly I would not have been that happy about the circumstances of my win.

I felt I needed to resolve any such personal conflict in my head *before *I started - we all know that golf is played in the head as much as anywhere else.

This all came about as club did not appreciate the need for a LR that those who know on here told me *was* required.  And I suppose that that is a possibility for any club.


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## backwoodsman (Sep 4, 2019)

pauljames87 said:










Saw this at a course near me yesterday

Thought was brilliant .. no question of where to put the rake
		
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That's a golf course? Surely that's just a field with a sandy hole in it ??


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## pauljames87 (Sep 4, 2019)

backwoodsman said:



			That's a golf course? Surely that's just a field with a sandy hole in it ??
		
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Never judge a course by one bit of rough ðŸ‘Œ


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## rulefan (Sep 4, 2019)

pauljames87 said:



			Saw this at a course near me yesterday

Thought was brilliant .. no question of where to put the rake
		
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It's ok provided your ball is not stuck up against the socket.


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## clubchamp98 (Sep 4, 2019)

rulefan said:



			It's ok provided your ball is not stuck up against the socket.
		
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That would be an immovable obstruction))))) oh no here we go again.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 4, 2019)

clubchamp98 said:



			That would be an immovable obstruction))))) oh no here we go again.
		
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You'd be able to yank it out - so movable


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## rulefan (Sep 4, 2019)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You'd be able to yank it out - so movable 

Click to expand...

But would it be replaced properly?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Sep 5, 2019)

rulefan said:



			But would it be replaced properly?
		
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No excuses - so much of the time probably not.


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## Jacko_G (Oct 13, 2019)

Jacko_G said:



			Honest to goodness. I can't believe how precious and anal this topic is. Basically someone doesn't replace a rake the way the OP wants/believes it should be done and we're into 5 pages!!! Who says that one way is more correct than another? You can hit off the rake in the centre of a bunker and ricochet off it up under a lip or into the side of the bunker just as much as you can with a rake left at the edge/half in/half out. 

Good luck on your rake crusade.
		
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Haha. 

Right I've changed my mind (slightly) now.

ðŸ˜…

I was in-between three bunkers yesterday, ball was sitting down in a small hole/depression meaning I couldn't get a club into the ball at all, would have skulled it halfway up the ball trying to pitch it. 

Pulled out the putter sensible option (so I thought) and putted. As soon as I struck the putt the ball just bounced out of the lie, skipped about two feet left, caught the edge/handle of the rake that was left half in/half out of the bunker and my ball dropped in to the bunker!!!

Made me look like a right fud! 

Therefore in or out only now!

ðŸ˜œ


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2020)

We were using our new scorecards last Sunday in first club competition of the year (new captains drive in foursomes) and we have clearly stated on it, under the section on immovable obstructions, that the artificial surrounds of a bunker are integral objects of the course and no relief is given.

Many thanks to those who helped get absolute clarity around this and why the statement is required.  Sorted thanks to the good folks of the forum.👍


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## Jacko_G (Mar 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			We were using our new scorecards last Sunday in first club competition of the year (new captains drive in foursomes) and we have clearly stated on it, under the section on immovable obstructions, that the artificial surrounds of a bunker are integral objects of the course and no relief is given.

Many thanks to those who helped get absolute clarity around this and why the statement is required.  Sorted thanks to the good folks of the forum.👍
		
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Is bunkergate officially closed?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2020)

Jacko_G said:



			Is bunkergate officially closed?
		
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Not on idiots ignoring club guidance on where rakes should be placed after use - but on the artificial built up sides to a bunker then yes 👍


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## clubchamp98 (Mar 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not on idiots ignoring club guidance on where rakes should be placed after use - but on the artificial built up sides to a bunker then yes 👍
		
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Is it possible to say must place rakes or just advisory.?
As most people do what suits them.


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## bobmac (Mar 7, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Not on idiots ignoring club guidance
		
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Surely it's up to the individual whether or not they agree with the 'guidance'?
And just because they may not agree, does that necessarily make them idiots?


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 7, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Surely it's up to the individual whether or not they agree with the 'guidance'?
And just because they may not agree, does that necessarily make them idiots?
		
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Maybe idiots is too strong a word 👍 So I’ll call them inconsiderate - though where _some_ players put rakes suggests a degree of stupidity or carelessness. But on the general point I have to disagree quite strongly.

If the club wishes all players to have consistency in how bunker rakes might influence their shots then players should adhere to the guidance provided. For a player to simply do whatever HE chooses to do leads to inconsistency - and surely all we look for in rub of the green is consistency.  If I see a player put a rake in a position inconsistent with club guidelines then I move it. And also in passing a bunker if I see one so positioned then I move it to where the club requests.  For me this is simply giving due consideration to players following me and so an aspect of etiquette.

And so full circle to post #1 🙂


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 7, 2020)

Really? Are we back on this again? Seems only one person and one club has such a big issue with where rakes are left. For every rake that leaves the ball at the back of the bunker and no shot there will be the one that hits a rake outside the bunker and stays out. The point is you shouldn't be in there and how often do bunkers really influence the outcome. Seemed a whole lot of worrying about nothing at the time and my opinion hasn't changed


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## RangeMonkey (Mar 8, 2020)

I have idea where rakes should be left. I’ve read several dozen golf books and watched hundreds of hours of YouTube videos over the last six months. It’s never been mentioned.


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## bobmac (Mar 8, 2020)

RangeMonkey said:



			I have idea where rakes should be left. I’ve read several dozen golf books and watched hundreds of hours of YouTube videos over the last six months. It’s never been mentioned.
		
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Do you know where you should stand on the teeing ground when others are teeing off?


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 8, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Really? Are we back on this again? Seems only one person and one club has such a big issue with where rakes are left. For every rake that leaves the ball at the back of the bunker and no shot there will be the one that hits a rake outside the bunker and stays out. The point is you shouldn't be in there and how often do bunkers really influence the outcome. Seemed a whole lot of worrying about nothing at the time and my opinion hasn't changed
		
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Why not read his post #270 properly, it is an update and a thank you to forum members for advice he’s received. He wasn’t starting anything again!

Others have then made comments to which he answered. Try playing the post instead of the poster!


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## RangeMonkey (Mar 8, 2020)

bobmac said:



			Do you know where you should stand on the teeing ground when others are teeing off?  

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Not really. I’ve never played with another person. I’d guess that you’d best be further from the flag then the players ball, out of line of sight? Ie, not in front, not square on, and not on the playing line.


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## bobmac (Mar 8, 2020)

RangeMonkey said:



			Not really. I’ve never played with another person. I’d guess that you’d best be further from the flag then the players ball, out of line of sight? Ie, not in front, not square on, and not on the playing line.
		
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Sounds about right


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 8, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Try playing the post instead of the poster!
		
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What does that even mean? Playing what? Golf, football, mah jong and given your propensity for having issues with my posts perhaps take your own advice more often


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 8, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			What does that even mean? Playing what? Golf, football, mah jong and given your propensity for having issues with my posts perhaps take your own advice more often
		
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Still choosing not to answer the question though!

You were having a sly dig at SILH, dress it up and deflect as much as you like, there was no need for the comment you made.


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## HomerJSimpson (Mar 9, 2020)

pauldj42 said:



			Still choosing not to answer the question though!

You were having a sly dig at SILH, dress it up and deflect as much as you like, there was no need for the comment you made.
		
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Nor you. What the hell is playing the post not the poster even mean. Just a random statement to have a "sly dig" which you and others have hurled around on a number of threads. Welcome to the ignore feature


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## Deleted member 16999 (Mar 9, 2020)

HomerJSimpson said:



			Nor you. What the hell is playing the post not the poster even mean. Just a random statement to have a "sly dig" which you and others have hurled around on a number of threads. Welcome to the ignore feature
		
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*Q. “What the hell is playing the post not the poster even mean”?*

A. It’s when you answer a post purely because of the poster and not the post, ie You don’t actually read the post and you wouldn’t have answered the post if someone else rather SILH had posted.

P.S. All the ignoring in the world won’t stop me calling you out when your post makes no sense and you’re playing the poster.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 9, 2020)

My point in my post #275 is nothing to do with where the rake is positioned - I was simply suggesting that as players we adhere to what a club asks.  

In that context I don't give a monkey's where a club asks us to place a rake after use.  In/Out/Roundabout a bunker; in the rake stand provided, or indeed hanging off the nearest tree, whatever the clubs asks then it is my view that we adhere to that request whatever we might think of it.   Because the only thing I care about in respect of rakes when I play is that I find consistency.


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## sunshine (Mar 10, 2020)

RangeMonkey said:



			I have idea where rakes should be left. I’ve read several dozen golf books and watched hundreds of hours of YouTube videos over the last six months. It’s never been mentioned.
		
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I wouldn't lose too much sleep over it


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## sunshine (Mar 10, 2020)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Maybe idiots is too strong a word 👍 So I’ll call them inconsiderate - though where _some_ players put rakes suggests a degree of stupidity or carelessness. But on the general point I have to disagree quite strongly.

If the club wishes all players to have consistency in how bunker rakes might influence their shots then players should adhere to the guidance provided. For a player to simply do whatever HE chooses to do leads to inconsistency - and surely all we look for in rub of the green is consistency.  If I see a player put a rake in a position inconsistent with club guidelines then I move it. And also in passing a bunker if I see one so positioned then I move it to where the club requests.  For me this is simply giving due consideration to players following me and so an aspect of etiquette.

And so full circle to post #1 🙂
		
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What about handling rakes  potentially contaminated with corona virus? Maybe you should ask your club to provide hand gel next to each rake or introduce a temp local rule about not raking bunkers.


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## SwingsitlikeHogan (Mar 10, 2020)

sunshine said:



			What about handling rakes  potentially contaminated with corona virus? Maybe you should ask your club to provide hand gel next to each rake or introduce a temp local rule about not raking bunkers.
		
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My post has nothing to do with what my club asks btw - every club has this issue as we all pick up rakes by the handle...

I simply noted that if I see a rake placed in a position away from where the club asks - then I move it.


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