# Hands Forward At Impact



## virtuocity (Sep 19, 2013)

Do YOU manipulate your hands during the swing to get your hands in front of the ball at impact.  At what point in the swing do you do this?

Or, does it happen naturally for you?


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## One Planer (Sep 19, 2013)

Some good info here:

http://forums.golf-monthly.co.uk/showthread.php?59205-Forward-shaft-lean-Line-of-compression-arghhh!

For me it's a natural, not conciously controlled movemet.


The more you try and manipulate through the swing, the more will go wrong IMO.


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## JustOne (Sep 19, 2013)

A few things happen in the swing.... we cock our wrists so that puts the hands ahead of the club head, the club arc is now shorter so we have to shift the center of the arc forwards and down (so that we can hit the ball) and we do this with a weight shift to the left and bringing our right shoulder MORE down than it was at address. There's no 'manipulation'. What were you suggesting.....?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 19, 2013)

Totally subconscious for me, wouldn't even consider trying to think about it. Swing back, swing through.


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## JustOne (Sep 19, 2013)

drive4show said:



			Totally subconscious for me, wouldn't even consider trying to think about it. Swing back, swing through.
		
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You'd be a brilliant instructor...

"Here's a club, swing it,..... that's Â£30 please!" :thup:


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## virtuocity (Sep 19, 2013)

Wasn't suggesting anything.... I've read (as one does) a lot about people 'forcing' their hands forward throughout the swing and it seemed to me like a recipe for disaster.  The only manipulation, like you say, should be the right shoulder and a weight shift.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 19, 2013)

JustOne said:



			You'd be a brilliant instructor...

"Here's a club, swing it,..... that's Â£30 please!" :thup:
		
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The golf swing is a pretty straightforward thing, no need to make it complicated.


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## virtuocity (Sep 19, 2013)

drive4show said:



			Swing back, swing through.
		
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I've done that since I started.  Not going too well :angry:


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## brendy (Sep 19, 2013)

I found that the fix for my shanks is to get the feeling that my hands are well ahead, I must have been quite far behind as this still feels odd to me but on video doesnt look out of the ordinary at all.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 19, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			I've done that since I started.  Not going too well :angry:
		
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You have obviosly been working with the wrong people then


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## JustOne (Sep 19, 2013)

drive4show said:



			The golf swing is a pretty straightforward thing, no need to make it complicated.
		
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You're so right, that's why everyone here is playing off scratch, in fact this game is so easy it's a joke!

I'm off to shoot 59 later, how 'bout you?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 19, 2013)

JustOne said:



			You're so right, that's why everyone here is playing off scratch, in fact this game is so easy it's a joke!

I'm off to shoot 59 later, how 'bout you?
		
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If the greens have been cut, probably 58.


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## SocketRocket (Sep 19, 2013)

drive4show said:



			If the greens have been cut, probably 58.
		
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Strewth!!!  What would happen with a new ball


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## Foxholer (Sep 19, 2013)

JustOne said:



			You'd be a brilliant instructor...

"Here's a club, swing it,..... that's Â£30 please!" :thup:
		
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Check out the OP

I think D4S answered it, while you didn't - in that post.

In the post where you did answer the question, you stated that cocking the wrist puts the hands ahead of the club-head. Can you explain how (just) cocking the wrists does that?

At Virt. It should become natural, but we natural 'sweepers' have difficulty achieving it.

Bob's drill http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ2oBmW37eY certainly helped/helps me. After a couple of weird swings it was magic! Of the 4 proper iron shots I hit last weekend, it was 50:50 old vs new style, which I count as siccess - specilly as there was water involved in a couple too!

Major benefit of the drill - and it has the approval of my anti-tech Pro mate (he says he was using it 20 years ago - which is quite recent for him) - is that it simply makes you do the right thing - without the tension-creating positional thoughts and forcing/manipulation.

If you are having problems with shaft lean, it's definitely worth at least trying imo.


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## JustOne (Sep 19, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Check out the OP

I think D4S answered it, while you didn't - in that post.
		
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Did I say that he hadn't??? I just said he'd be a brilliant instructor.

Stop yer nit-pickin' :ears:


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## Foxholer (Sep 19, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Did I say that he hadn't??? I just said he'd be a brilliant instructor.

Stop yer nit-pickin' :ears:
		
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In that case, Mr Pot, how about staying on topic? :ears:

Signed (on that front) Mr Pott!

PS. (And back on topic) You didn't answer my question re cocking wrists (not) putting hands ahead of club-head.


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## JustOne (Sep 19, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			PS. (And back on topic) You didn't answer my question re cocking wrists (not) putting hands ahead of club-head. 

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I thought you'd know this stuff?


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## Foxholer (Sep 19, 2013)

JustOne said:



			I thought you'd know this stuff? 

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That's why I asked - to correct my mis-interpretations. You've done it before.

Are you going to answer the question?


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## JustOne (Sep 19, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			That's why I asked - to correct my mis-interpretations. You've done it before.

Are you going to answer the question?
		
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Sure, the way we grip the club (with right below left) means that when we cock our wrists the club moves slightly (about 10 degrees) to the right because of the plane of our arms.. (and the way the right wrist cocks in relation to the left), if you don't release that wrist cock the club will always be 10 degrees behind the hands :thup:


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## Robobum (Sep 19, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Sure, the way we grip the club (with right below left) means that when we cock our wrists the club moves slightly (about 10 degrees) to the right because of the plane of our arms.. (and the way the right wrist cocks in relation to the left), if you don't release that wrist cock the club will always be 10 degrees behind the hands :thup:
		
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It's absolute tosh like this that makes me never want to get technical about a simple bat & ball game.

I was sure its only 8 degrees


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## JustOne (Sep 19, 2013)

Robobum said:



			It's absolute tosh like this that makes me never want to get technical about a simple bat & ball game.

I was sure its only 8 degrees
		
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I think you're right... :rofl:


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## virtuocity (Sep 19, 2013)

Robobum said:



			It's absolute tosh like this that makes me never want to get technical about a simple bat & ball game.

I was sure its only 8 degrees
		
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You DO these things.  Others can't.


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## Foxholer (Sep 19, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Sure, the way we grip the club (with right below left) means that when we cock our wrists the club moves slightly (about 10 degrees) to the right because of the plane of our arms.. (and the way the right wrist cocks in relation to the left), if you don't release that wrist cock the club will always be 10 degrees behind the hands :thup:
		
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Ha. Another question of defining the terms. Cock, Hinge and Set required then. What do you mean by those.

As it happens, I'm not convinced that it's that part (backswing) that is the dominant factor of what creates the forward lean. I believe it's the combination of body position and the retention of some of the lag, while releasing sufficient to strike the ball well.

See why I don't teach!


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## JustOne (Sep 19, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			Ha. Another question of defining the terms. Cock, Hinge and Set required then. What do you mean by those.

As it happens, I'm not convinced that it's that part (backswing) that is the dominant factor of what creates the forward lean. I believe it's the combination of body position and the retention of some of the lag, while releasing sufficient to strike the ball well.

See why I don't teach!
		
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It's all relevant Foxy, I just isolated the wrist hinge :thup: We move the center of the swing arc forwards in the downswing which encourages the hands to lead,.. those that don't will generally have to flip or early extend, some people that DO will still flip... a bit later...

 (you're learning that with your 2-ball drill)


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## Foxholer (Sep 19, 2013)

JustOne said:



			It's all relevant Foxy, I just isolated the wrist hinge :thup: We move the center of the swing arc forwards in the downswing which encourages the hands to lead,.. those that don't will generally have to flip or early extend, some people that DO will still flip... a bit later...

 (you're learning that with your 2-ball drill) 

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Still need some definitions then - I've seen wrist hinge and cock described both ways!

And no. I'm happy in the knowledge that if the drill works - and it's very obvious when it does - I have no need to worry, or even know, about the technical stuff. As the whole purpose of the swing is to get the impact conditions right, I'm happy that this does that - or at least makes the improvement I ant.need.

So I'm a balance between the techie and the 'just do it'. In this case, I prefer the 'just do it' approach - knowing the techie stuff will happen.


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## JustOne (Sep 19, 2013)

Foxholer said:



			And no. I'm happy in the knowledge that if the drill works - and it's very obvious when it does - I have no need to worry, or even know, about the technical stuff. As the whole purpose of the swing is to get the impact conditions right, I'm happy that this does that - or at least makes the improvement I ant.need.
		
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I agree to an extent Foxy, if the drill is giving YOU what you want then you should be happy. It just happens to not float my boat as i think you can get too steep, I believe MORE golfers actually need to shallow their swings... even the ones who hit behind the ball. Shaft lean and steepness are often confused.

What would be your definition of wrist hinge VS wrist cock?


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 19, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			You DO these things.  Others can't.
		
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Everyone can if they want to. It's a simple game made overly complex. Look how many juniors you see with great swings, I bet they don't haves clue about the technicalities, they just swing the club back and through.


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## virtuocity (Sep 19, 2013)

drive4show said:



			they just swing the club back and through.
		
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No they don't.


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## virtuocity (Sep 19, 2013)

drive4show said:



			Everyone can if they want to.
		
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I want to.  Tell me how!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 19, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			No they don't.
		
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Don't they?


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## virtuocity (Sep 19, 2013)

drive4show said:



			Don't they?
		
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Well they do, I guess.

Messi kicks footballs by swinging his leg back and forwards.


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## Foxholer (Sep 19, 2013)

JustOne said:



			I agree to an extent Foxy, if the drill is giving YOU what you want then you should be happy. It just happens to not float my boat as i think you can get too steep, I believe MORE golfers actually need to shallow their swings... even the ones who hit behind the ball. Shaft lean and steepness are often confused.

What would be your definition of wrist hinge VS wrist cock?
		
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I agree with the steep/lean issue you raise. But if the contact and flight are good, then that's evidence that things are better - and is all important anyway.

It's not what I mean/understand that's important - it's what you are meaning/the recipient understands that's important.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 19, 2013)

virtuocity said:



			Well they do, I guess.

Messi kicks footballs by swinging his leg back and forwards.
		
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Yes he does and he can kick the ball high, low, straight or bend it. And I bet he does it instinctively because in football you don't have time to think. The difference in golf is you do and that's when we create problems for ourselves.


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## lyden (Sep 19, 2013)

I think the question is how many people actually achieve a decent impact position versus how many think they do. Every time I've played with pros & watched them live there's a distinct crack off the club face, a sound I've seldom / never heard amateurs make baring the elite.


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## Foxholer (Sep 19, 2013)

drive4show said:



			Yes he does and he can kick the ball high, low, straight or bend it. And I bet he does it instinctively because in football you don't have time to think. The difference in golf is you do and that's when we create problems for ourselves.
		
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H'mm. I think he's kicked thousands of balls and had quite a bit of coaching to get to this stage though.

Beckham and his dead-ball skills might be a better analogy with Golf btw.

At Virt. As I posted earlier, try that 2-ball drill. Be aware that there is a chance to simply get too steep though, so make sure you weight is almost all on the left leg at impact. It's the contact and ball flight that will confirm you are doing it right (or not).

Btw. You seem to have made huge progress recently and, imo, there's bound to be a little regression. I'd suggest that if you haven't already done so, you establish what are the essential/key changes that you can ensure are embedded. Otherwise, imo, there's a danger that you will either regress completely or that future changes will undo some of that progress. I've seen that happen from other such sessions a couple of times.


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## JustOne (Sep 19, 2013)

drive4show said:



			Yes he does and he can kick the ball high, low, straight or bend it. And I bet he does it instinctively because in football you don't have time to think. The difference in golf is you do and that's when we create problems for ourselves.
		
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I can kick a ball high, low, straight or bend it.... I can't kick it 300yds, I don't kick it with a 1m stick on the end of my shoe, the ball is 100 times bigger and I can't swing my leg behind my head - apart from that I can see the similarity 

I don't know why Golf Monthly bother writing tips in their magazine, I'm not sure why we need instructors at all, those guys that wrote The Golfing Machine clearly don't have a clue!!!... it's quite simple, just swing the club back and through. all those hours wasted writing all those golf books!! OMG!!.. all those DVD's!!

That bloody Leadbetter bloke has a lot to answer for! :rofl:

OR

They are correct, and the one person who says it's easy, just swing at the ball, is wrong.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 19, 2013)

JustOne said:



			I can kick a ball high, low, straight or bend it.... I can't kick it 300yds, I don't kick it with a 1m stick on the end of my shoe, the ball is 100 times bigger and I can't swing my leg behind my head - apart from that I can see the similarity 

I don't know why Golf Monthly bother writing tips in their magazine, I'm not sure why we need instructors at all, those guys that wrote The Golfing Machine clearly don't have a clue!!!... it's quite simple, just swing the club back and through. all those hours wasted writing all those golf books!! OMG!!.. all those DVD's!!

That bloody Leadbetter bloke has a lot to answer for! :rofl:

OR

They are correct, and the one person who says it's easy, just swing at the ball, is wrong.
		
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Plenty of people think the golf swing is simple, its your choice to over think it.


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## JustOne (Sep 19, 2013)

drive4show said:



			Plenty of people think the golf swing is simple, its your choice to over think it.
		
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:rofl:


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## garyinderry (Sep 19, 2013)

a proper golf swing is not simple and to answer an old question from justone, completely unnatural! 


I doubt there is anyone in history that has even picked up a club and swung it without any faults in a traditional manner .  in fact most people fail at holding the club!


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 19, 2013)

garyinderry said:



			a proper golf swing is not simple and to answer an old question from justone, completely unnatural! 


I doubt there is anyone in history that has even picked up a club and swung it without any faults in a traditional manner .  in fact most people fail at holding the club!
		
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I'm sorry to hear you find it difficult to swing your hands behind your head then back through in the opposite direction.


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## garyinderry (Sep 19, 2013)

drive4show said:



			I'm sorry to hear you find it difficult to swing your hands behind your head then back through in the opposite direction.
		
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thanks for your sympathy!  I hacked around for quite some time until someone told me that you actually hit down on the ball, rather than trying to scoop it off the deck.  who knew eh?


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## JustOne (Sep 19, 2013)

garyinderry said:



			thanks for your sympathy!  I hacked around for quite some time until someone told me that you actually hit down on the ball, rather than trying to scoop it off the deck.  who knew eh? 

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Indeed.

I think you're falling for his 'winding up' Gary. He doesn't know anything about the golf swing. Not a stitch.


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## Deleted Member 1156 (Sep 19, 2013)

JustOne said:



			Indeed.

I think you're falling for his 'winding up' Gary. He doesn't know anything about the golf swing. Not a stitch.
		
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No wind up involved, just keeping it as simple as possible. Clearly something you don't agree with.


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## Region3 (Sep 19, 2013)

Even Tiger thinks it's a simple game....

[video=youtube;JJ95vCvSVKY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJ95vCvSVKY[/video]


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## JustOne (Sep 19, 2013)

drive4show said:



			No wind up involved, just keeping it as simple as possible. Clearly something you don't agree with.
		
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LMAO!!! :rofl:


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## SocketRocket (Sep 20, 2013)

View attachment 7607


I like the simple imagery of a nail tacked into a ball and the club with no loft.   You then imagine driving the nail through the ball with the zero lofted clubface.    The nail is at different angles for the type of club, say 20 deg for short to mid irons, 10 deg for longer irons, hybrids and fairways, horizontal off the tee for 3 wood and 10 deg up for driver.   You then have to drive the imaginary nail through the ball, OK there is no nail and the club will have loft but the simple imagery will improve many golfers ball striking.


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