# uneven lies



## jdchelsea (Jun 11, 2012)

What technique does everyone use for these?

Ball below feet- aim left and allow for the fade or hood clubface/play a draw to counteract the slope?

Ball above feet-aim right and allow for the draw or open clubface/play a fade to counteract the slope?

 Any info or tips in relation to ball position, body rotation and trying to remain perpendicular to slope welcome.


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## Region3 (Jun 11, 2012)

Apart from allowing a little for the expected ball flight, what I do is...

Ball above feet - grip down on the club
Ball below feet - bend knees a little more


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## JustOne (Jun 11, 2012)

If you get your address/balance/weight correct the slope doesn't affect the ballflight at all.... unless you 'play for the shape'. The ball doesn't know it's sitting on a slope so provided you make the clubface arrive into impact correctly you can shape it anyway you want or play all shots straight.

Normally when faced with a slope I think positively about the shape I want but try not to exaggerate it... eg: play a soft draw or a soft fade.


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## bobmac (Jun 11, 2012)

JustOne said:



			If you get your address/balance/weight correct the slope doesn't affect the ballflight at all.... unless you 'play for the shape'. The ball doesn't know it's sitting on a slope so provided you make the clubface arrive into impact correctly you can shape it anyway you want or play all shots straight.

Normally when faced with a slope I think positively about the shape I want but try not to exaggerate it... eg: play a soft draw or a soft fade.
		
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You dont think the clubface will be closed at address to a ball a foot above your feet?


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## JustOne (Jun 11, 2012)

Are we having one of those arguements again already?  LOLOLOL

No I don't.




If you grip 4" down a club is the face suddenly closed? If you're right on the metal is the face closed? It's only closed if you lay it on the slope and then 'play to the clubface' so to speak....

This is how I hit the ball..... pretty straight (hopefully)......

approx 5:00 mins for sidehill lies.....


[video=youtube;uRTSy7px7e8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRTSy7px7e8[/video]

In general I think people expect something radical to happen from a sidehill lie and then start messing around with what 'might' happen followed by not even making a decent swing at they're trying to manipulate too many things... just hit it straight :thup:


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## bobmac (Jun 11, 2012)

So if the ball is above your feet say and the shaft angle changes to a normal flat lie shot, the face doesn't close?

Is the clubface pointing in th same direction on both these shots?

sorry, cant make the picture bigger


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## JustOne (Jun 11, 2012)

If the ball is above your feet and you FLATTEN THE PLANE then the clubface would be pointed left, and vice-versa for a ball below your feet *however *if we look at the (well known?) concept of the ball 'drawing' with the ball above your feet how would it draw if the clubface is closed?.. it wouldn't... it would actually START to the left.... so the clubface MUST BY DEFAULT be being delivered more open...

Whilst I wouldn't necessarily agree with this guys description (he's talking about reducing the curve when he *SHOULD* be talking about the face being more open) you can see that when he hits the ball at 1 min 35 secs the ball starts TO THE RIGHT so the clubface certainly isn't pointing left even though the ball is above his feet.

[video=youtube;RyFEigUCzPw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyFEigUCzPw[/video]


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## bobmac (Jun 11, 2012)

Ok,so you are in affect cheating the slope by gripping down on the shaft to make it more upright so the club sits toe down into the slope  or toe up on the shot with the ball below your feet?


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## JustOne (Jun 11, 2012)

I think I said this as my 1st reply...




			If you get your *address/balance/weight* correct the slope doesn't affect the ballflight at all.... unless you 'play for the shape'. The ball doesn't know it's sitting on a slope so provided you make the clubface arrive into impact correctly you can shape it anyway you want or play all shots straight.
		
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Meaning that the ball doesn't hook/draw/slice off a sidehill lie if you don't want it to. Assuming that it will (and play for it) is not right in my opinion, you can hit whatever shot you want off any lie.... I can easily hook off a downhill lie if I want to, it doesn't need to be a slice regardless of what we might be informed.


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## bobmac (Jun 11, 2012)

Isn't it a bit dodgy for an average h/capper to have the hands low on a 'ball below the feet' shot?


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## Foxholer (Jun 11, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Isn't it a *bit dodgy for* *an average h/capper* to have the hands low on a 'ball below the feet' shot?
		
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re the bold bit:
Perhaps. But JO ain't one of those is he.

I've always found it best to allow a little for the slope on hanging lies and adjust my hand position for iron shots above the feet. For some reason (probably the-to-in swing dominating) wood/hyrid shots tend to fade/slice off either slope - so I allow for it.


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## bobmac (Jun 11, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			re the bold bit:
Perhaps. But JO ain't one of those is he.
		
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But the OP who asked the question is off 17 which I would class as an average h/cap.  (No offence to the OP)


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## JustOne (Jun 11, 2012)

Foxholer said:



			re the bold bit:
Perhaps. But JO ain't one of those is he.
		
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You clearly haven't seen me play   

Clearly this is going to another one of those threads!.. I don't mind as long as no-one starts whinging..... 

I think (as stated) it's about balance, you need to remain VERTICAL and that means keeping the weight on the heels for a downhill lie and on the toes for one above your feet, that's how simple it is to me... you don't need to worry about the shot shape at all then, just play your normal shot (as shown by ShawnClement in the first vid and the ball CLEARLY starting to the right in the second vid).


I don't see the need to start telling your *'average h/cap' *player that the ball is going to move one way or another when clearly it doesn't have to. Would you not also be telling them to adjust their weight distribution, possibly aim and be crossing your fingers that their swingpath will somehow take care of itself?


If you've got someone who normally hits a draw it ISN'T suddenly going to fade if the ball is below his feet... ... it's about what the clubface is doing and what the players NORMAL swingpath is, there's NOTHING to say that someone who normally swings from the in-out will suddenly swing from out-in just because you put the ball 2" below their feet, if it was that easy we could cure a hook just by using shorter clubs ... of course they might not understand balance and practically fall down the slope


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## Region3 (Jun 11, 2012)

You might have already covered this in a way I didn't understand, but using the ball above feet example, I thought the notion that the ball is likely to move right to left is because the club face points slightly to the left as you lift the toe off the ground (or the heel down to be level with the slope).

Is this not the case, or do you readjust your grip to realign the face before you swing?


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## JustOne (Jun 11, 2012)

Gary how do you hit *right to left* if the club is pointing LEFT... the ball would start LEFT (ballflight laws). Are you assuming that you're going to aim so far to the right to 'make the draw happen'? and then what? jam the club into the slope?


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## G1BB0 (Jun 11, 2012)

ignore as it was bollox


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## jdchelsea (Jun 11, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Isn't it a bit dodgy for an average h/capper to have the hands low on a 'ball below the feet' shot?
		
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JustOne said:



			Gary how do you hit *right to left* if the club is pointing LEFT... the ball would start LEFT (ballflight laws). Are you assuming that you're going to aim so far to the right to 'make the draw happen'? and then what? jam the club into the slope?
		
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It is a strange one because when playing a ball above the feet shot they do tend to move left to right. Whether they start left and move further left I'm not so sure. I'll have to keep an eye next time for it.

Is that to do with the flatter downswing as a result of the slope?

Ps only just checked back to see if anyone had replied to my post but didn't expect a row about it.


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## Region3 (Jun 11, 2012)

JustOne said:



			Gary how do you hit *right to left* if the club is pointing LEFT... the ball would start LEFT (ballflight laws). Are you assuming that you're going to aim so far to the right to 'make the draw happen'? and then what? jam the club into the slope?
		
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Sorry, just my terminology. The point I was trying badly to make was that I expect the ball to move to the left of wherever it started, because raising the toe means (to me) the clubface points slightly left of where you think it does, and therefore is closed to whatever you think your target line is.

Confused?..... tune in next week.....


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## JustOne (Jun 11, 2012)

One more for luck....

[video=youtube;DHNokrTI98A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHNokrTI98A[/video] 

 I don't think he says aim left and play for a slice.... :thup:


oooh.... last one.... (bit of waffle in this one....)

[video=youtube;7T_sgwG8Vp8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T_sgwG8Vp8[/video]


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## bobmac (Jun 12, 2012)

Don't think I'll be changing the way I teach these shots.
If Shawn Clement told you that more loft hit the ball lower, would you believe him?


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## Smiffy (Jun 12, 2012)

JustOne said:



			I don't see the need to start telling your *'average h/cap' *player that the ball is going to move one way or another
		
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In 30 years of playing I have read loads of articles in various golfing magazines, and heard loads of pro's explain that this is the case. I don't think I have ever read/heard anything to the contrary.
So they were all wrong????


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## Smiffy (Jun 12, 2012)

I've just watched an instructional video on You Tube of Freddie Couples hitting a 3 wood off the fairway  and he said "the ball is slightly above my feet so it will draw to the  left so take account of that" So a former World Number 1 Major winner is wrong??????????? Oh and by the way....he was a natural fader of the ball


Oh look. Another idiot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44amkDcWDUc

What the hell does he know????


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## JustOne (Jun 12, 2012)

Smiffy said:



			I've just watched an instructional video on You Tube of Freddie Couples hitting a 3 wood off the fairway  and he said "the ball is slightly above my feet so it will draw to the  left so take account of that" So a former World Number 1 Major winner is wrong??????????? Oh and by the way....he was a natural fader of the ball


Oh look. Another idiot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44amkDcWDUc

What the hell does he know????
		
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I can show you loads of vids (eg Poulter/Faldo/Rose/etc etc) teaching the WRONG ballflight laws but you'd believe them because it's on Youtube and they're tour pros?

What happens if you aim a little right and play the ball further back in your stance ON THE FLAT?

and FWIW Couples plays a *push*fade so he swings at the ball from the INSIDE. Technically he's a natural drawer of the ball.... but with an open clubface.

I'm not blowing smoke up ShawnClement but would most people listen to someone who plays scratch golf right AND left handed.... or someone who plays off 13?  and has done so for 30yrs


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## Smiffy (Jun 12, 2012)

JustOne said:



			would most people listen to someone who plays scratch golf right AND left handed.... or someone who plays off 13?  and has done so for 30yrs
		
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I'm not giving advice...
Oh and I did get down to 10 when I was your age. Which is only 4 putts a round worse than you are now.


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## JustOne (Jun 12, 2012)

Smiffy said:



			Which is only 4 putts a round worse than you are now.


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No, it's 4 x 280yd drives


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## Smiffy (Jun 12, 2012)

JustOne said:



			No, it's 4 x 280yd drives 

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If it makes you feel more manly, then I guess so


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## JustOne (Jun 12, 2012)

Question for you Smiffy/Bobmac...


Let's assume the ball is BELOW the feet this time....Do you place the sole of the club with the slope?.............. [click to enlarge pic]


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## jeardley (Jun 12, 2012)

Surely this is very individual and what might suit one might not suit another due to folk having different swing paths.

When I was learning about this back in the day I found that just getting out there as much as possible and 
playing these different lies was the best way to develop a 'feel' for these types of shots.

It is never just limited to uphill / downhill / ball above or below, because the target can be near/far or above you or below you.

You have to get out there, play these shots and develop your own feel!!! Trial and error 


Just my opinion


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## JustOne (Jun 12, 2012)

I agree, that's why it's wrong to step up to a ball that is above your feet and think "I have to draw this".

From my *1st* reply...




			provided you make the clubface arrive into impact correctly you can shape it anyway you want or play all shots straight.
		
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Obviously if your standing in a bunker and the ball is on a bank about waist high in front of you things might work out a bit different if you want to fade it  but assuming we are not talking about anything 'extreme' you can do what you like.


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## jdchelsea (Jun 12, 2012)

bobmac said:



			Isn't it a bit dodgy for an average h/capper to have the hands low on a 'ball below the feet' shot?
		
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JustOne said:



			Question for you Smiffy/Bobmac...


Let's assume the ball is BELOW the feet this time....Do you place the sole of the club with the slope?.............. [click to enlarge pic]


View attachment 1956

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From this picture on the right we can see this ball will go to the right of the target(using the same target as the left). That's assuming straight ball flight. Now this is where I might throw a spanner in the works. A straight ball flight from this slope will lead to a fade not because of swing plane, path or clubface etc but because of gravity.

I'll try and explain-If you imagine straight ball flight from a level slope (travels at 12 o'clock) and then tilt that slope down (as in the 2nd pic) the straight ball flight will now travel at say 2 o'clock compared to the straight ball flight described from the level slope. Now throw in gravity and the ball, although hit with all the required characteristics to hit a perfectly straight shot, will fall further to the right or fade. My description probably isn't great but I did my best lol


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## JustOne (Jun 12, 2012)

jdchelsea said:



			From this picture on the right we can see this ball will go to the right of the target(using the same target as the left). That's assuming straight ball flight. Now this is where I might throw a spanner in the works. A straight ball flight from this slope will lead to a fade not because of swing plane, path or clubface etc but because of gravity.
		
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Actually what it shows is that the shaft is BEYOND VERTICAL and it's actually *impossible* to swing the club from this position....... even gripping it would be awkward!...

[click to enlarge pic...]








From this position you should be able to CLEARLY SEE that it's necessary to have the toe of the club off the ground in order to maintain the shaft angle in a 'playable position'..... so if we don't go with the slope on a downhill lie why should we with an uphill one? (where the plane would become incredibly flat)

NB: the toe wouldn't really be UP, it'll actually be LEVEL, so the clubface would actually be pretty square... hence you can hit any shape shot you want provided you apply the appropriate swingpath.... and don't just off-balance yourself. (see my 1st reply)


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## jdchelsea (Jun 12, 2012)

Fair point I'd never actually considered whether it is physically possible or not ha ha

On a ball about the feet shot it would be possible though to lie the sole flat on the ground. I think doing that and allowing for the draw is going to be my tactic.

For the shot with the ball below the feet I have no idea how I'm gonna even attempt to make clean contact. I can understand how the ball would go right and likely fade further right but that's if the sole of the club is level with the slope but as you've described that makes it impossible to swing the club. Suggestions welcome


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## jdchelsea (Jun 12, 2012)

Sorry didn't see your last point. So do you suggest virtually ignoring the slope and keeping the toe of the club off the ground i.e. lying along an imaginary horizontal ground (for a ball below the feet shot)


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## bobmac (Jun 12, 2012)

If you get your address/balance/weight correct the slope doesn't affect  the ballflight at all.... unless you 'play for the shape'. The ball  doesn't know it's sitting on a slope so provided you make the clubface  arrive into impact correctly you can shape it anyway you want or play  all shots straight.

Normally when faced with a slope I think positively about the shape I  want but try not to exaggerate it... eg: play a soft draw or a soft  fade.
		
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			If you grip 4" down a club is the face suddenly closed? If you're right  on the metal is the face closed? It's only closed if you lay it on the  slope and then 'play to the clubface' so to speak....
		
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			In general I think people expect something radical to happen from a  sidehill lie and then start messing around with what 'might' happen  followed by not even making a decent swing at they're trying to  manipulate too many things... just hit it straight :thup:
		
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			If the ball is above your feet and you FLATTEN THE PLANE then the  clubface would be pointed left, and vice-versa for a ball below your  feet *however *if we look at the (well known?) concept of the ball  'drawing' with the ball above your feet how would it draw if the  clubface is closed?.. it wouldn't... it would actually START to the  left.... so the clubface MUST BY DEFAULT be being delivered more open...

Whilst I wouldn't necessarily agree with this guys description (he's talking about reducing the curve when he *SHOULD*  be talking about the face being more open) you can see that when he  hits the ball at 1 min 35 secs the ball starts TO THE RIGHT so the  clubface certainly isn't pointing left even though the ball is above his  feet.
		
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			Meaning that the ball doesn't hook/draw/slice off a sidehill lie if you  don't want it to. Assuming that it will (and play for it) is not right  in my opinion, you can hit whatever shot you want off any lie.... I can  easily hook off a downhill lie if I want to, it doesn't need to be a  slice regardless of what we might be informed.
		
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			I think (as stated) it's about balance, you need to remain VERTICAL and  that means keeping the weight on the heels for a downhill lie and on the  toes for one above your feet, that's how simple it is to me... you  don't need to worry about the shot shape at all then, just play your  normal shot (as shown by ShawnClement in the first vid and the ball  CLEARLY starting to the right in the second vid).


I don't see the need to start telling your *'average h/cap' *player  that the ball is going to move one way or another when clearly it  doesn't have to. Would you not also be telling them to adjust their  weight distribution, possibly aim and be crossing your fingers that  their swingpath will somehow take care of itself?


If you've got someone who normally hits a draw it ISN'T suddenly going  to fade if the ball is below his feet... ... it's about what the  clubface is doing and what the players NORMAL swingpath is, there's  NOTHING to say that someone who normally swings from the in-out will  suddenly swing from out-in just because you put the ball 2" below their  feet, if it was that easy we could cure a hook just by using shorter  clubs ... of course they might not understand balance and practically fall down the slope 

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			Gary how do you hit *right to left* if the club is pointing LEFT...  the ball would start LEFT (ballflight laws). Are you assuming that  you're going to aim so far to the right to 'make the draw happen'? and  then what? jam the club into the slope?
		
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			I can show you loads of vids (eg Poulter/Faldo/Rose/etc etc) teaching  the WRONG ballflight laws but you'd believe them because it's on Youtube  and they're tour pros?

What happens if you aim a little right and play the ball further back in your stance ON THE FLAT?

and FWIW Couples plays a *push*fade so he swings at the ball from the INSIDE. Technically he's a natural drawer of the ball.... but with an open clubface.

I'm not blowing smoke up ShawnClement but would most people listen to  someone who plays scratch golf right AND left handed.... or someone who  plays off 13?  and has done so for 30yrs
		
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			I agree, that's why it's wrong to step up to a ball that is above your feet and think "I have to draw this".

From my *1st* reply...

                                                         provided you make the clubface arrive into impact correctly you can shape it anyway you want or play all shots straight.                      



Obviously if your standing in a bunker and the ball is on a bank about  waist high in front of you things might work out a bit different if you  want to fade it  but assuming we are not talking about anything 'extreme' you can do what you like.
		
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			Actually what it shows is that the shaft is BEYOND VERTICAL and it's actually *impossible* to swing the club from this position....... even gripping it would be awkward!...From this position you should be able to CLEARLY SEE that it's necessary  to have the toe of the club off the ground in order to maintain the  shaft angle in a 'playable position'..... so if we don't go with the  slope on a downhill lie why should we with an uphill one? (where the  plane would become incredibly flat)

NB: the toe wouldn't really be UP, it'll actually be LEVEL, so the  clubface would actually be pretty square... hence you can hit any shape  shot you want provided you apply the appropriate swingpath.... and don't  just off-balance yourself. (see my 1st reply)
		
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Or just aim right


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## JustOne (Jun 12, 2012)

jdchelsea said:



			Fair point I'd never actually considered whether it is physically possible or not ha ha
		
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It wasn't a dig by the way... just a picture to show that what people SAY isn't necessarily even playable! 

On a shot with the ball *severely above your feet* then you might consider the draw but you still have to make sure that the face is pointing to the right at impact so the ball STARTS right... you can do that with the whole 'aim right' thing or playing the ball off your back foot, but for MOST slopes you might aswell just grip down a fraction and hit it straight  (take more club as the gripped down one won't go as far).


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## jdchelsea (Jun 12, 2012)

JustOne said:





It wasn't a dig by the way... just a picture to show that what people SAY isn't necessarily even playable! 

On a shot with the ball *severely above your feet* then you might consider the draw but you still have to make sure that the face is pointing to the right at impact so the ball STARTS right... you can do that with the whole 'aim right' thing or playing the ball off your back foot, but for MOST slopes you might aswell just grip down a fraction and hit it straight  (take more club as the gripped down one won't go as far).
		
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Ok that's fine for ball above feel what about ball below feet. If I try to parallel everything with the slope it becomes an impossible shot but if I just aim to play it straight i.e. with horizontal clubface then surely the heal will contact the ground first and make the shot impossible also.


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## JustOne (Jun 12, 2012)

jdchelsea said:



			Ok that's fine for ball above feel what about ball below feet. If I try to parallel everything with the slope it becomes an impossible shot but if I just aim to play it straight i.e. with horizontal clubface then surely the heal will contact the ground first and make the shot impossible also.
		
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Not really, unless you're on a slope of about 45 degrees  I can get the heel to hit the ground off the flat! 

Ultimately it's each to their own... my point in the thread being that just because the ball is a bit above/below your feet doesn't mean that you suddenly have to switch into a draw/fade mind set... you can play any shot you want if you set up properly and maintain your balance. The slope being there means nothing unless you let it. If you're a fader you can still do it with the ball above your feet and you can still draw the ball when it's below.


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