# From The Editor?



## beau d. (Feb 24, 2014)

Firstly It has been a while since I posted, so I apologise in advance for returning with what may be a controvertial thread..... That is my opposition to the constant infatuation with changing our Wonderful game. I would also like to apologise to the Editor Michael Harris as I am not trying to make a personal attack towards him but I am worried about where his April contribution is hoping to take the game, my love and passion for our fantastic sport, I hope justifies me in what I am posting.
	So here we go....., The statement in his Editors article &quot;golf just doesn&#39;t offer enough fun&quot; I do not understand, especialy when it comes from the CEO of Taylor Made and two heavyweights of US golf...... Well sorry I simply do not agree, I just can&#39;t wait every time I play to tee it up at my home or any away course, for the fun i&#39;m about to have, the frustration i&#39;m going to endure, the challenge I am about to face to play my best and shoot my best ever score, the company of the friends I am about to play with and do battle against gives me such a buzz I only ever experience participating in this great game we play. So apologies to the big three but it&#39;s time to seek pastures new in search of a sport or hobby that &quot;does offer you more fun&quot;.
	Then we have the constant obsession by a small minority in a position to make themselves heard asking &quot;what we have to do to make our game more popular&quot; and to &quot;enlist the masses&quot;, even if it means loosing the integrity of the game so it can survive. I am sorry I just don&#39;t see that either. The history, Honour and Integrity of the game are the game, it&#39;s essential it is preserved as it is, Essential! If we have to look to HackGolf.org we have reached desperation, their name alone, set aside what the Editor states does put me off straight away, why do they think turning the game into some kind of a Circus will ever save it, it will mearly change the people who participate. For every new recruit one golf die hard such as myself will be sadly leaving the game we love, when we have to stand on the first tee, mobile phone in hand in a pair of ripped denims with a cannon or the likes to propel the ball up the fairway instead of our trusty driver, or whatever wonderful solution HackGolf.org arrives at to address the curent dilema golf finds itself in. The truth is we are in a recession, we have been before, we will be again. Golfers nor golf clubs should not be complacent, they should and are doing everything they can to keep open and affordable every golf course possible, there is no more fat to trim at Golf Clubs Mr Editor, Clubs are doing there best to survive, but at the same time doing their best to keep the game as it is, as it always was, because that is Golf. My final point, how can we help the game survive as is?. Well here is a suggestion to the big three (and the likes, namely golf club, equipment and clothing manufacturers) the editor was discussing the games dilema with...... Start and plough some of your massive profits back into the game at golf club level instead of lining your own, your shareholders and even tour players pockets. You can&#39;t tell me these institutions couldn&#39;t afford to give back to golf at it&#39;s grass roots a percentage of the profit they make for instance on a driver for which they charge &pound;300+ which costs around &pound;25 to manufacture? after all it&#39;s in their interest, if the game does continue to decline so will their ability to print money! So come on Michael Harris (Editor) please don&#39;t take offence to my post, let&#39;s start a campaign towards my final point above, you are in a wonderful position to make yourself heard and do something to really save our game as it is, that is unless you are like the big three at &quot;For The Love Of The Game&quot; who feel that &quot;Golf just isn&#39;t enough fun&quot; as it is, which after reading many of your articles I don&#39;t believe for a single minute.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 24, 2014)

*Re: From The Edito*

Wow that's a big blob ! Sorry but that is unreadable


----------



## bladeplayer (Feb 24, 2014)

*Re: From The Edito*

eh ?


----------



## tsped83 (Feb 24, 2014)

Er what?


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Feb 24, 2014)

*Re: From The Edito*

Gave up reading after the fifteenth #39

No idea what#39 means but way to big to comprehend but I'm surmising you are against the TM led initative to make golf quicker but also get more people involved


----------



## stevelev (Feb 24, 2014)

Beau.d  maybe edit your post and break it down into paragraphs so people can read it with more ease.  Also bear in mind that not everybody on the forum will have read the Editors note in the magazine, so they wont know what is your text and what belongs to the Editors note from the mag.

Also give you chance to remove the mistakes that are in there due to the apostrophe not being included in your text.

I for one look forward to your post that I can read and understand. At least we know why Michael qualifies as an Editor and not you


----------



## Green Bay Hacker (Feb 24, 2014)

*Re: From The Edito*

What is this &#39;?

Just saw it on another thread as well, is it a swear filter or some sort of code?


----------



## Siren (Feb 24, 2014)

*Re: From The Edito*

what the heck is that?


----------



## stevelev (Feb 24, 2014)

*Re: From The Edito*



HomerJSimpson said:



			Gave up reading after the fifteenth #39

No idea what#39 means but way to big to comprehend but I'm surmising you are against the TM led initative to make golf quicker but also get more people involved
		
Click to expand...

#39 appears everywhere in place of an apostrophe


----------



## London mike 61 (Feb 24, 2014)

*Re: From The Edito*

I don't know what sort of a rant it is but it sure beats anything I rant about.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 24, 2014)

*Re: From The Edito*

I'm guessing he has a problem with his keyboard


----------



## beau d. (Feb 24, 2014)

*Re: From The Edito*

Apologies it is not meant to be a rant, well I suppose it is. What on earth has happened to apostrophies and quote marks etc I don&#39;t know. I have attempted to edit the mistakes without sucsess. Hope you can get the gist of my post.


----------



## Green Bay Hacker (Feb 24, 2014)

*Re: From The Edito*

Aah. I see now, the simple apostrophe. 

Site not quite right yet.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 24, 2014)

*Re: From The Edito*



beau d. said:



			Apologies it is not meant to be a rant, well I suppose it is. What on earth has happened to apostrophies and quote marks etc I don't know. I have attempted to edit the mistakes without sucsess. Hope you can get the gist of my post.
		
Click to expand...


Can you try and form some paragraphs as well !


----------



## beau d. (Feb 24, 2014)

*Re: From The Edito*

I do not think it is my laptop as it is brand new hence my absence from the forum, but who knows could be some weird setting. I will atempt to try and make my post more readable.


----------



## BTatHome (Feb 24, 2014)

*Re: From The Edito*

Sometimes get strange characters inserted if the text is being copy and pasted from some other program.


----------



## bladeplayer (Feb 24, 2014)

My attempt at edit ha, apologies if i have inadvertantly [sp] changed what you meant



beau d. said:



			Firstly It has been a while since I posted, so I apologise in advance for returning with what may be a controvertial thread..... That is my opposition to the constant infatuation with changing our Wonderful game. I would also like to apologise to the Editor Michael Harris as I am not trying to make a personal attack towards him but I am worried about where his April contribution is hoping to take the game, my love and passion for our fantastic sport, I hope justifies me in what I am posting.


    So here we go....., The statement in his Editors article "golf just doesn't offer enough fun" I do not understand, especialy when it comes from the CEO of Taylor Made and two heavyweights of US golf...... Well sorry I simply do not agree, I just can't wait every time I play to tee it up at my home or any away course, for the fun i'm about to have, the frustration i'm going to endure, the challenge I am about to face to play my best and shoot my best ever score, the company of the friends I am about to play with and do battle against gives me such a buzz I only ever experience participating in this great game we play. So apologies to the big three but it's time to seek pastures new in search of a sport or hobby that ";does offer you more fun".


    Then we have the constant obsession by a small minority in a position to make themselves heard asking "what we have to do to make our game more popular" and to "enlist the masses", even if it means loosing the integrity of the game so it can survive. I am sorry I just don't see that either. 

The history, Honour and Integrity of the game are the game, it's essential it is preserved as it is, Essential! If we have to look to HackGolf.org we have reached desperation, their name alone, set aside what the Editor states does put me off straight away, why do they think turning the game into some kind of a Circus will ever save it, it will mearly change the people who participate.

For every new recruit one golf die hard such as myself will be sadly leaving the game we love, when we have to stand on the first tee, mobile phone in hand in a pair of ripped denims with a cannon or the likes to propel the ball up the fairway instead of our trusty driver, or whatever wonderful solution HackGolf.org arrives at to address the curent dilema golf finds itself in. The truth is we are in a recession, we have been before, we will be again. Golfers nor golf clubs should not be complacent, they should and are doing everything they can to keep open and affordable every golf course possible, there is no more fat to trim at Golf Clubs Mr Editor, Clubs are doing there best to survive, but at the same time doing their best to keep the game as it is, as it always was, because that is Golf. 

My final point, how can we help the game survive as is?. Well here is a suggestion to the big three (and the likes, namely golf club, equipment and clothing manufacturers) the editor was discussing the games dilema with...... Start and plough some of your massive profits back into the game at golf club level instead of lining your own, your shareholders and even tour players pockets. 

You can't tell me these institutions couldn't afford to give back to golf at it's grass roots a percentage of the profit they make for instance on a driver for which they charge Â£300+ which costs around Â£25 to manufacture? after all it's in their interest, if the game does continue to decline so will their ability to print money! So come on Michael Harris (Editor) please don't take offence to my post, let's start a campaign towards my final point above, you are in a wonderful position to make yourself heard and do something to really save our game as it is, that is unless you are like the big three at "For The Love Of The Game" who feel that "Golf just isn't enough fun" as it is, which after reading many of your articles I don't believe for a single minute.
		
Click to expand...


----------



## Siren (Feb 24, 2014)

Not a bad post to be fair, I cant help but feel as though the big companies should start plowing a bit back into the game.


----------



## beau d. (Feb 24, 2014)

Thank you Bladeplayer, I have tried but sadly I was timed out as you can only edit a post up to 20 mins from posting..... What a to do.


----------



## bladeplayer (Feb 24, 2014)

beau d. said:



			Thank you Bladeplayer, I have tried but sadly I was timed out as you can only edit a post up to 20 mins from posting..... What a to do.
		
Click to expand...


  :thup: Hope i haven't changed anything you wanted to say tho .


----------



## Hobbit (Feb 24, 2014)

Wish I'd known BP was in the middle of editing it!!

Beau, nice post.


----------



## SimonS (Feb 24, 2014)

Siren said:



			Not a bad post to be fair, I cant help but feel as though the big companies should start plowing a bit back into the game.
		
Click to expand...

Agreed. 

There have been many column inches in GM over the last few years regarding the views of the TH boss on "improving golf".  Last year he was wanting to make the hole bigger.  

We would do well to remember that companies such as TM have only one aim - to sell more clubs/balls/clothes.  They could not care less how that is achieved.  Unfortunately our editor seems to have taken the hook.


----------



## GB72 (Feb 24, 2014)

A good post and there is a a danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There is room for modernisation in attitudes more in keeping with attitudes of today but the game itself should remain sacrosanct.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 24, 2014)

SimonS said:



			Agreed. 

There have been many column inches in GM over the last few years regarding the views of the TH boss on "improving golf".  Last year he was wanting to make the hole bigger.  

We would do well to remember that companies such as TM have only one aim - to sell more clubs/balls/clothes.  They could not care less how that is achieved.  Unfortunately our editor seems to have taken the hook.
		
Click to expand...

But to sell more they would need more people playing the game itself 

So whilst ultimately their motives ( all manufacturers ) will be the same - profit - it's not a bad idea to have them findings ways to get more people into golf


----------



## Allanxyz (Feb 24, 2014)

Just read the editors letter... I'm in two minds. I guess he more people that play golf the cheaper it becomes, maybe the more golf course there are. This is broadly a good thing I suppose.

 However I agree with beau d, I'm pretty happy with how exciting golf is, I couldn't really care less if twice as many people started playing the game or not. Obviously people with vested interests such as equipment manufacturers would love it if golf grows, more revenue, same goes for golf magazines... More people playing golf means squeezing more money out of the sport... Never mind sport for sports sake.

I know this is a fairly outdated attitude.. Or at least goes against the current trends of openness, inclusivity and everything must get bigger better and more popular... But is this a good thing. Of course all sports evolve, golf has evolved and I'm not against that... Someone from 1800 would look at golf now and probably have a fit... But the rules and format are broadly the same. This power golf thingy came and went (as least as far as I'm aware), I guess as there is no appetite for it. 

To me, there is no need for radical change... Evolution as opposed to revolution is required.


----------



## CMAC (Feb 24, 2014)

beau d. said:



			Thank you Bladeplayer, I have tried but sadly I was timed out as you can only edit a post up to 20 mins from posting..... What a to do.
		
Click to expand...

copy it, or quote it in a reply and make the appropriate changes and we'll all read it


----------



## beau d. (Feb 24, 2014)

CMAC said:



			copy it, or quote it in a reply and make the appropriate changes and we'll all read it
		
Click to expand...

Sadly I have lost the edit option on my original post CMAC because seemingly 20 minutes only from posting to edit the post. Bladeplayer has edited the post perfectly on my behalf thankfully.
I hope I have sorted the problem now as I have been ticking and unticking boxes in my settings so fingers crossed.


----------



## HawkeyeMS (Feb 24, 2014)

Good post Beau, I must admit I too find all this talk of "dumbing down" the game for the sake of appealing to the masses a bit tedious. As far as I can see, this isn't an attempt to attract new people to the game of golf, it's an attempt to create a new game based on golf, that isn't the same thing.

If we want to increase participation, lets focus on the positives about golf rather than the negatives and lets advertise those. Let's get into schools and give the kids the opportunity to try it. Golf as it is is a great game, it could do with advertising itself a bit better, but the fundamental game itself doesn't need changing.


----------



## beau d. (Feb 24, 2014)

Really glad I am not alone in wanting the game to remain as it is. I do appreciate the need for a little tweeking here and there, as seemingly do others but the overlying factor for me is like HawkeyeMS states the fundimentals do not need changing.


----------



## Birchy (Feb 24, 2014)

I think there needs to be a balance. There is changes needed as some things are so outdated and uneccessary now although there is a shedload of things about the game that are already great.

We have to be careful we dont ruin it with new changes for sure. If it gets silly you will lose a lot more than you will gain.

The main thing we do need to change imo is to make it more accesible to kids and the younger generation. Its very slowly improving but i still see it as a bit of a drag to get into golf. Took me a while from registering interest in the game in my mind before i found a way into the sport.


----------



## MikeH (Feb 24, 2014)

Evening all

Iâ€™m pleased the eds letter has prompted some debate - its the only thing I really write in the mag so glad someone actually reads it!

(A jpg of the eds letter is attached here so everyone can read it even if they donâ€™t get the mag)



More seriously the idea of the eds letter was get the topic of growing the game on the table for discussion so thatâ€™s job done.

I never expected everyone to agree with what I wrote but I think those who profess to love the game and want to see it grown need to think of new ways to increase participation levels because the current offering isnâ€™t working. if you think otherwise I'm afraid you're rather sticking your head in the sand

A few points to clarify my view and reply to comments above 

My views (and those of the people who have got behind the launch of hackgolf) focus not on the game that established golfers (you, me basically anyone on here) play but rather on golf's entry level offering.

To suggest I was advocating changing the game we play suggests the OP hadnâ€™t properly read what I wrote because I explicity said...

â€œâ€¦itâ€™s about tearing up the rule book and inventing new golf formats to act as entry points to the game we all know and love. Thatâ€™s not to say established golfers should start taking unlimited Mulligans, dropping back in bounds or putting to bucket holes. Rather, itâ€™s about the birth of a new form of golf to halt and reverse decline.â€

The numbers donâ€™t lie, fewer and fewer people are getting into golf and when you start doing some research and asking why then the common threads are as follows...

â€¢	It's too expensive (especially when compared to other sports/leisure activities)
â€¢	It's too hard and takes too long to get to a level where you are competent and having fun
â€¢	I donâ€™t know where to get started 
â€¢	It's not family friendly 
â€¢	There are too many confusing/intimidating rules and traditions
â€¢	In its current format (18 holes) the game takes too long and in a society here we have less and less time to spend on leisure activities thats not a good thing

If a version of golf can be created that addresses the above hurdles then I believe the game of golf will grow

The bottom line is current initiatives arenâ€™t succeeding in getting people transitioned from picking up a club through to occasional play and on to regular participation so to reverse the trend we need to try something new

If we donâ€™t try something new then overall participation numbers will drop and drop and the cost of playing the game will rise and rise as there are fewer people to share the burden of paying for the facilities (it takes a lot of money to maintain a golf facility). In the end we will become a minority sport â€“ the preserve of the relative few who were lucky enough toâ€¦

â€¢	Have been introduced to the game by a friend or relative who could show them the ropes and make integration into the game relatively pain free
â€¢	Pick up a club and have natural talent for playing the game so can quickly get to level where they are competent
â€¢	Have enough time and money to have lessons get to the above level


The involvement of TaylorMade
Liverpoolphil hits the nail on the head when he says "But to sell more they would need more people playing the game itself So whilst ultimately their motives (all manufacturers) will be the same - profit - it's not a bad idea to have them findings ways to get more people into golf"

Spot on and I can guarantee if a new version of the game is developed that requires different clubs pretty much every current brand will want to service that market and brands like Dunlop will bring out gear that broadly does the same job as the top namesâ€¦but costs a lot less!

TaylorMade of course have a vested interest in growing game - as does Golf Monthly and every other brand in the industry â€“ but to date only TaylorMade has pledged to back any ideas that could drive growth with a fund of up to $5m, and for that I applaud them.

I hope other brands/governing bodies etc follow suit. If Golf Monthly had the resources of TM and I was making the decisions then Iâ€™d want to invest cash and ideas in a project that could not only help safeguard the future of the game but also produce the next generation of mag readers and forum posters 

as I said in the piece - I want to see our game, the game I love, grow and I believe that to do that we need to have some radical ideas that address the true issues that are holding golf back

Plenty to debate thatâ€™s for sure


----------



## malek988 (Feb 24, 2014)

bladeplayer said:



			My attempt at edit ha, apologies if i have inadvertantly [sp] changed what you meant
		
Click to expand...



Bill your far to nice you know that? and you have way to much time on your hands, i had a headache after reading 2 sentences lol (of #39's)


----------



## richart (Feb 24, 2014)

I like the idea of new ways to encourage kids to play. When I went to the cricket the kids would play Quick Cricket during the lunch interval. Along with cricket, golf takes too long. Twenty twenty cricket is a huge hit with kids and adults. We need a golf equivalent, fast, simple to understand. Not sure what the answer is, but the professional golf on television is not helping the cause. Yesterdays final was excruciating at times. I can see now why Jason Day is nicknamed 'All day'. 

Something needs to be done at the top end of the game. Yes regular golf nuts will still watch, but someone flicking channels will watch that sort of entertainment for a couple of minutes and then switch over to the darts. What is worrying is it is the young players that are so slow. Across all ages attention spans are getting shorter, there are more alternative activities, and golf needs to be able to compete.


----------



## Imurg (Feb 24, 2014)

PowerPlay was a format that was supposed to be the 20:20 of Golf but it didn't capture the imagination. A bunch of us went to The Grove with GM and tried it out. Some liked it, some didn't but Peer McEvoy was convinced it was going to work.
I guess the issue with PP was that you actually had to be able to play golf to get anything out of it. So not something that would attract people to the game.
A friend of mine is currently transporting his Daughter around Bucks every weekend s she plays Comps on Par 3 courses, she was at Wycombe Heights last week and won her at division, she's 12. There were loads of kids playing these things, almost as many as there were adults on the main course.
Maybe that's a way to go - build more 9 hole par 3 courses, you don't need much land and the holes don't have to be long - we have one and the longest hole is 97 yards. Throw in a few bunkers and ponds to make it a bit more like a real course but it only takes 30 minutes to go round.
Whet the appetite on the short courses and maybe they'll get the bug and progress to the full game.


----------



## Crow (Feb 24, 2014)

Imurg said:



			A friend of mine is currently transporting his Daughter around Bucks every weekend s she plays Comps on Par 3 courses, she was at Wycombe Heights last week and won her at division, she's 12. There were loads of kids playing these things, almost as many as there were adults on the main course.
Maybe that's a way to go - build more 9 hole par 3 courses, you don't need much land and the holes don't have to be long - we have one and the longest hole is 97 yards. Throw in a few bunkers and ponds to make it a bit more like a real course but it only takes 30 minutes to go round.
Whet the appetite on the short courses and maybe they'll get the bug and progress to the full game.
		
Click to expand...

Like it.

No need for any new rules or clubs, you're still playing proper golf, just on a more beginner-friendly course.

If the bug bites you can change to 18 hole golf, or even just carry on with the 9 hole par 3 format.


----------



## bluewolf (Feb 24, 2014)

Good post..
In my ever so humble opinion, the game of golf doesn't need any major changes. A few tweaks here and there maybe, but nothing major. What does need to change is the behaviour/opinions/actions of a small number of people who make the game look archaic rather than traditional.


----------



## GB72 (Feb 24, 2014)

Imurg said:



			PowerPlay was a format that was supposed to be the 20:20 of Golf but it didn't capture the imagination. A bunch of us went to The Grove with GM and tried it out. Some liked it, some didn't but Peer McEvoy was convinced it was going to work.
I guess the issue with PP was that you actually had to be able to play golf to get anything out of it. So not something that would attract people to the game.
A friend of mine is currently transporting his Daughter around Bucks every weekend s she plays Comps on Par 3 courses, she was at Wycombe Heights last week and won her at division, she's 12. There were loads of kids playing these things, almost as many as there were adults on the main course.
Maybe that's a way to go - build more 9 hole par 3 courses, you don't need much land and the holes don't have to be long - we have one and the longest hole is 97 yards. Throw in a few bunkers and ponds to make it a bit more like a real course but it only takes 30 minutes to go round.
Whet the appetite on the short courses and maybe they'll get the bug and progress to the full game.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with this. The 9 hole course near me does great business and really helps attract people to the game. Same with the par 3 course at Rutland Water, my 9 year old nephew is up there all the time. Was  really sad day when Greetham Valley ripped up a great little par 3 course to add holes t the main course then ripped up the new par 3 holes to build chalets.

The biggest hurdle to getting newcomers into the game is that it is damned hard to hit a golf ball and even harder to be slightly proficient. Society now wants some instant gratification and golf does not give up its delights easily


----------



## Slab (Feb 25, 2014)

I think any initiative to grow the game needs to be taken back to the drawing board rather than trying to jump into the current lifecycle of a 'golfer' and start to make changes at a random point

For a kick off has anyone specifically asked the youngsters if they even want to play golf and if they do want to play an entry game that'll get them into full golf, what might that look like?

What are the kids expectations of a entry game and is it influenced by computer games (where tiger rarely hits a slice) to a point where the real thing just isn't appealing   

Also I think I'm right in saying VAT applies to golf club purchases and this needs to be looked at especially if its kids clubs (in fact sporting equipment should be considered for VAT exemption, why are many cakes and biscuits exempt from VAT but not golf clubs! but that's another thread)

Third (and since TM are mentioned) have you seen their range of junior clubs? nope neither have I

You might find the odd retailer with a junior burner set but don't expect a choice, for example AG has no TM for kids (and if kids are going to take up golf they will want the same brands they see being used on TV and at a sub Â£100 for a set inc bag) TM may want to think about this as part of their commitment to the game (and it does them no harm as kids grow up to already be the preferred choice) Most of the golf marques if not ignore kids then certainly appear to 

I think short par 3 courses, pitch and putt & yes even crazy golf/mini golf, should be part of the club scene up and down the country. We probably have enough square footage already given to golf but its just not used properly. Ok so I'm not suggesting every private course has a crazy golf on the front lawn but there's a gulf from how youngsters are accommodated and viewed now to where we need to be


----------



## Fish (Feb 25, 2014)

I think some clubs don't help themselves with too many 'old guard' at the helm. 

We have invested in building a very nice par 3 course and its great for homing in on your short game, but, I don't see it advertised or promoted anywhere other than our own club website! A lot of committee members and clubs are entrenched in the way they do things and 'change' can be an ugly word, and yet, we have invested in something to kick-start interest which is aside to the main course and short enough for those looking to get into the game to have some fun and hopefully take up the sport and become future full members. However, its mainly used only by the current membership.

Advertising costs are huge, so more local proactive one-to-one initiatives need to be undertaken by inviting local schools of various ages to the club for a group introduction to the sport, we have a small practice area/range up to 165yds so they would learn the basics their and then smaller groups would then find themselves going around the par 3 course under instruction. 

The problem then I see is its a huge leap from the par 3 course to the main course, not as 18 holes in length but just a hole-by-hole scenario, I think if clubs had as I've seen on my travels, Blue Tees for Juniors so thus creating a shorter course, then our 1st tee turns itself from a 475yd par 4 to a say 300yd par 4 or 5. (an example but you know where I'm coming from).

I think some golf courses, there committees and overall presence can seem intimidating to the young, after-all, they can feel hostile to some of us adults when joining a new club, so, its those perceptions that need breaking down, not the rules of golf, we need to make it more inclusive, approachable and less intimidating and not the exclusive sport/hobby it can come across at present, and that starts at our own clubs.  If you have the infrastructure, like we do, it will have no cost other than man hours from volunteers along with the Pro and his/her assistant, who should be rubbing their hands with the possibility that some will want to take their introductions further and become new clients.

I remember reading one of MIke's editorials back in May 2013 about the 'Golf Foundation', I'd never heard of this before and I wonder how many of our clubs really know or bother to find out what it can offer them, if anything, and what benefits they might obtain if they contributed to it.  I'd like to see a campaign started here on the GM Forum and through the magazine to create a greater awareness of the Golf Foundation and in association with that, lets see how many clubs and its members pick up the baton if they really do want to see change and young development or if its just hot air and someone else's problem!

http://www.golf-foundation.org/


----------



## patricks148 (Feb 25, 2014)

beau d. said:



			Firstly It has been a while since I posted, so I apologise in advance for returning with what may be a controvertial thread..... That is my opposition to the constant infatuation with changing our Wonderful game. I would also like to apologise to the Editor Michael Harris as I am not trying to make a personal attack towards him but I am worried about where his April contribution is hoping to take the game, my love and passion for our fantastic sport, I hope justifies me in what I am posting.
	So here we go....., The statement in his Editors article "golf just doesn't offer enough fun" I do not understand, especialy when it comes from the CEO of Taylor Made and two heavyweights of US golf...... Well sorry I simply do not agree, I just can't wait every time I play to tee it up at my home or any away course, for the fun i'm about to have, the frustration i'm going to endure, the challenge I am about to face to play my best and shoot my best ever score, the company of the friends I am about to play with and do battle against gives me such a buzz I only ever experience participating in this great game we play. So apologies to the big three but it's time to seek pastures new in search of a sport or hobby that "does offer you more fun".
	Then we have the constant obsession by a small minority in a position to make themselves heard asking "what we have to do to make our game more popular" and to "enlist the masses", even if it means loosing the integrity of the game so it can survive. I am sorry I just don't see that either. The history, Honour and Integrity of the game are the game, it's essential it is preserved as it is, Essential! If we have to look to HackGolf.org we have reached desperation, their name alone, set aside what the Editor states does put me off straight away, why do they think turning the game into some kind of a Circus will ever save it, it will mearly change the people who participate. For every new recruit one golf die hard such as myself will be sadly leaving the game we love, when we have to stand on the first tee, mobile phone in hand in a pair of ripped denims with a cannon or the likes to propel the ball up the fairway instead of our trusty driver, or whatever wonderful solution HackGolf.org arrives at to address the curent dilema golf finds itself in. The truth is we are in a recession, we have been before, we will be again. Golfers nor golf clubs should not be complacent, they should and are doing everything they can to keep open and affordable every golf course possible, there is no more fat to trim at Golf Clubs Mr Editor, Clubs are doing there best to survive, but at the same time doing their best to keep the game as it is, as it always was, because that is Golf. My final point, how can we help the game survive as is?. Well here is a suggestion to the big three (and the likes, namely golf club, equipment and clothing manufacturers) the editor was discussing the games dilema with...... Start and plough some of your massive profits back into the game at golf club level instead of lining your own, your shareholders and even tour players pockets. You can't tell me these institutions couldn't afford to give back to golf at it's grass roots a percentage of the profit they make for instance on a driver for which they charge Â£300+ which costs around Â£25 to manufacture? after all it's in their interest, if the game does continue to decline so will their ability to print money! So come on Michael Harris (Editor) please don't take offence to my post, let's start a campaign towards my final point above, you are in a wonderful position to make yourself heard and do something to really save our game as it is, that is unless you are like the big three at "For The Love Of The Game" who feel that "Golf just isn't enough fun" as it is, which after reading many of your articles I don't believe for a single minute.
		
Click to expand...

in Total agreement with you.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Feb 25, 2014)

I went to the GM Powerplay day at the Grove and according to McEvoy and PP it was going to be a big thing and get people involved in a quicker and mmore fun orientated way of playing. It seemed to get a lot of early interest but I've not seen or heard of it over the last few years and assume it has died some kind of death. It certainly isn't getting pumped around as much in the press and social media

I agree with Mike's points in that we need to get new blood involved. My club has started running a junior academy since last summer as a way of getting kids into the game but it's still hard breaking down barriers and misconceptions about the game and isn't going to grow the game nationally or globally. Like them or loathe them TM have a global brand recognition and so anything that has their name behind it as a project to get kids and families involved is going to be big news and create interest and that can only help the situation


----------



## CheltenhamHacker (Feb 25, 2014)

I like the idea of more *cheap* Par 3 courses. There is one in the local area that I know of, and it certainly seems popular at weekend with younger people, and beginners! 

I've also heard of a course somewhere in Devon that has balls that fly like a normal ball, but significantly less distance. This means you can play a shortened course, but even if you belt it with your driver, can't hit it past 150 yards or something. Could be another idea, as less land = less maintenance = less costs = cheaper for everyone!

But mainly the Par 3 courses, we definitely need more of those, and greater publicity of them.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 25, 2014)

Fish said:



			I think some clubs don't help themselves with too many 'old guard' at the helm. 

We have invested in building a very nice par 3 course and its great for homing in on your short game, but, I don't see it advertised or promoted anywhere other than our own club website! A lot of committee members and clubs are entrenched in the way they do things and 'change' can be an ugly word, and yet, we have invested in something to kick-start interest which is aside to the main course and short enough for those looking to get into the game to have some fun and hopefully take up the sport and become future full members. However, its mainly used only by the current membership.

Advertising costs are huge, so more local proactive one-to-one initiatives need to be undertaken by inviting local schools of various ages to the club for a group introduction to the sport, we have a small practice area/range up to 165yds so they would learn the basics their and then smaller groups would then find themselves going around the par 3 course under instruction. 

The problem then I see is its a huge leap from the par 3 course to the main course, not as 18 holes in length but just a hole-by-hole scenario, I think if clubs had as I've seen on my travels, Blue Tees for Juniors so thus creating a shorter course, then our 1st tee turns itself from a 475yd par 4 to a say 300yd par 4 or 5. (an example but you know where I'm coming from).

I think some golf courses, there committees and overall presence can seem intimidating to the young, after-all, they can feel hostile to some of us adults when joining a new club, so, its those perceptions that need breaking down, not the rules of golf, we need to make it more inclusive, approachable and less intimidating and not the exclusive sport/hobby it can come across at present, and that starts at our own clubs.  If you have the infrastructure, like we do, it will have no cost other than man hours from volunteers along with the Pro and his/her assistant, who should be rubbing their hands with the possibility that some will want to take their introductions further and become new clients.

I remember reading one of MIke's editorials back in May 2013 about the 'Golf Foundation', I'd never heard of this before and I wonder how many of our clubs really know or bother to find out what it can offer them, if anything, and what benefits they might obtain if they contributed to it.  I'd like to see a campaign started here on the GM Forum and through the magazine to create a greater awareness of the Golf Foundation and in association with that, lets see how many clubs and its members pick up the baton if they really do want to see change and young development or if its just hot air and someone else's problem!

http://www.golf-foundation.org/

Click to expand...

What he said.


----------



## cookelad (Feb 25, 2014)

Gotta admit when I first saw that "paragraph" full of randomness I nearly clicked back to the lounge, but I'm glad I didn't, well said sir, as GB72 said we could be in danger of throwing the baby out with the bathwater if too much is changed too quickly, yes certain things need to be modernised but the integrity and traditions of the game also need a level of protection, this is a great game because it's evolved with those traditions not in-spite of them. Someone said in another thread that some of the rules are stupid, and yes they may seem that way when you first happen upon them but as you get to understand them you realise why they were put in place and worded as they are. 

I don't think I'm on my own here but if people can't be bothered to play by the rules then the game is probably better off without them. You play any other sport you go around not knowing and breaking the rules you won't get to play that sport as much as those that know the rules and play nice - if I had a player in my football team who got sent off every week he'd pretty quickly find himself looking for another team to play with!


----------



## Rooter (Feb 25, 2014)

Like some have already said, par 3 course are great, i live near a really nice little one and its excellent for some "quick" golf, a 2 ball can go round in under 90 minutes. they are switched on there too with  night golf, kids tournaments etc too.

Getting into schools is another way, i popped to the range this morning, and my club pro was just about to host a group lesson from the local private school, shame its only the private schools though! i would like my kids state schools to get involved, either pay a pro to go to the school or something like that.

Also my local place now do kids group lessons every weekend and after school midweek, Â£5 for unlimited balls, club hire and tuition! thats proper cheap for a kids activity, for example, my kids have;

Swimming Â£133 for a 6 weeks
Drums Â£20 for 30 minute lesson
Stage School Â£350 a term! (Approx 3 months, so about Â£30 a session!)

So Â£5 for an hours golf is great value with zero investment. IF they get into it, the PGA Kids clubs are under Â£20 each, my lad has a 7 iron and i take him with me sometimes, he is just a bit too young still for the group lessons..


----------



## vkurup (Feb 25, 2014)

Interesting issue.  As someone who recently took up golf at the wrong side of 35, I can tick off all the boxes that Martin King, Mike Harris and Beau.d are referring to. I always wanted to play it, but did not know where to start or what to do â€“ needless to say, the cost associated (both perceived and real) with golf is a real downer. So here is my journey. As they say it is a bit long as I did not have the time to write a short one.

When I started playing, I did not know anyone else who played. It took me some time to find a friend who wanted to try it out. We bought an entry level Dunlop clubs from Sports Direct and headed off to my local par 3. Soon got the courage to ask the pro for some lessons and a lot of YouTube-ing later, started to understand what the pro was asking me to do. To an ex-cricketer, golf is different, but I was happy to make a fool of myself to learn the game â€“ believe me I got laughed at for my cover drives (still do).  For over a year, it was just two of us hacking around a Par 3 and getting frustrated.  Finally, I chanced upon a 9 hole improver competition with relaxed rules that my Pro runs that invites â€˜golfers of all abilityâ€™ to participate and get a handicap. It took me a while to convince my friends to participate, as everyone was afraid of looking stupid.  The competitive element helped bring a lot of starters into the game without the risk of looking silly.  The Pro also handed out (unofficial) competition handicaps that would help people improve. Soon a few more friends joined in and we were â€˜into golfâ€™.  It also helped the Pro, because all those who participate, end up taking lessons from him. Moral of the story.. the game is difficult to get into â€“ psychologically and financially. 

Over the last couple of years as I climb the golfing ladder, I have seen people of every shade. While most of the people I play with or interacted have been very good company and we have shared stories and pints together, I have come across some characters that sometimes make you wonder about the gameâ€™s future. I once played with a matchplay with a very low handicapper who walked off the 12th hole after he beat me and went and sat in the bar!! At such times, you wonder if you chose the right sport. There is a lot of resistance to change within the game and often we blame â€˜old guard in positions of powerâ€™.  While there is an element of truth, but if I look around, I donâ€™t see the young blood volunteering their time to be on committees. The committee members are doing a thankless task and get beaten up for it.  When I signed up to my club, I struggled to get a game as I did not have a handicap. So I sent a note to the Captain with some suggestions on how new members can gain handicaps (happy to dig it out if needed).  Kudos to the Captain, they discussed it at the committee meeting and implemented a couple.  Donâ€™t forget, Golf can be a very lonely sport too, so it needs to be sociable.  This is where the GM Forum has been very helpful for me.  It has kept me connected to the game and I have learnt more about it on the forum than anywhere else.  Moral of the story.. Play your part â€“ contribute your ideas or time and make people welcome. 

Cost is a big barrier to the game.  This is both perceived and real.  My first set of Dunlops cost me about Â£150 for the set & bag. These days I wonâ€™t get a â€˜properâ€™ driver for that money. We all slag off TaylorMade, but if it was not for TM, I would be still be with Dunlop.  Then there is green fees and membership.  After I started playing 18 holes, I had to reduce my cost by playing twilight golf or some other off peak variant. I would ring around to see if the pro shop would make a deal and we would get there. I am surprised the number of course that would rather stay unused than give a 50% off to someone to use it.  Luckily there are a few good courses that would happily let you in during off peak hours. What an awesome way to experience a new course and for the course to make some money. Courses should think EasyJet rather than BA when it comes to tee bookings.  Finally on membership fees - my course charges about Â£1100 i.e. considering the national avg salary of 24K, it would cost an average Joe 5% of his salary to indulge in a past time!!  There are a bizarre number of offers, but none that target people like me i.e. the weekend hack. I donâ€™t need a 7 day membership and I cant use a 5 day membership.  There is an equal amount of â€˜perceived costâ€™ of golf.  When I signed up, a non playing friend who loves the elitist feel of golf, asked me if it costs 6k to join a club!!

Time: After the cost element, I guess the time commitment is perhaps the biggest stumbling block in the game. In a family where both parents work, it is very difficult for Dad to be out most of Sunday playing golf.  I am a â€˜car park golferâ€™, but even then I donâ€™t expect to be home before lunch on Sunday.  As a public course, we have to budget upto five hours on a bad day to get thru.  Unfortunately, there is not much you can do about slow play other than follow good etiquette and keep pace. This is where ideas like not looking for lost balls come handy.  While playing in the US last year, I was shocked when people hook their drive, simply call a mulligan and then reload. It was a culture shock, but it kept the game moving. While I donâ€™t advocate doing that in a competition, I canâ€™t see a reason why you canâ€™t do it in a social round? Similarly, in India, they recently experimented with a 14 hole competition with Darren Clarke taking part. 

What are we doing: At my club, I think we are making a lot of inroads into entry level golf. We are lucky to have a 18 hole P3 pitch and putt, a 9 hole intermediate and a 18 hole championship course. In Dec we opened a Pirate island crazy golf. The car park is usually full with Chelsea tractors and in the club house you can see kids playing Scrable while on a break. It seems to host birthday parties ever weekend and it is not uncommon to see three generations of a family trying to hit a ball down the snakeâ€™s throat.  Not everyone is happy with the noise and we have seen our club membership coming down over the years (cant be correlate).  However, most of them have either left the game or have moved to more private members clubs. On our driving range, we now have a bin with old clubs, so people can rock up and hit a few balls.  Last week, while I took the young one to a kids event, I went down to the range and hit a few balls while waiting for him.  Clubs need to do more and not everything costs money. However, both the club and the members need to understand and buy in to the market they are trying to tap into. I would never dream of taking kids into a private-suit-and-tie-clubhouse.    

HackGolf.. As a management consultant, I see a few of these hackatons. While the name might put people off, I think it is a great idea to open source this. There will some nuggets that will come out of it that will be useful. I will surely login and put some thoughts too.  This year, I have three friends who want to join the game but are sitting on the fence for different reasons. I have offered to take them out on the pitch and putt and give it a try out.  I will also scan hackgolf to look for some ideas. 

Now that I am hooked onto the game, I would like to go to the next level and get closer to 80, get custom fitted, play tougher courses and at some point join a private member course.  While that journey has similar challenges and it will take time to get there, I think I am converted and wont leave in a hurry.  With my consultant hat on, to summarise - Given the financial, time and family commitments required to get into golf, the game needs to understand that the competition is not between different golf courses, but with different lifestyle choices e.g. football, new TV/Car, holiday, time with kids etc. The â€˜upper endâ€™ of the game i.e. those with the single figure handicap is a relatively safe and stable market. The middle ones will come and go and come back.  As Mark & Martin mention, the challenge is the bottom (entry) level.  As someone going thru the process, I think I can say, it is one hellâ€™uve of a challenge.


----------



## CMAC (Feb 25, 2014)

As Imurg said we need good Par 3 courses. They can be made to look fantastic and uber challenging as well as good to look at.
Par 3 tournament at the Masters is an obvious one.

Less clubs to carry, fast rounds, lots of fun, exact same as 'real' golf without the crazy length and drivers, less land required etc etc

My last 2 clubs have both had a par 3 course, my current one has just doubled the membership cost as its oversubscribed and a waiting list from Juniors. At school summer holidays its perfect outdoor exercise and fun for the younger generation, Dads can take their kids and even practice their shortgame themselves.


I liken entry to golf to any other sport......
I try the fun and easy artificial ski slopes before attempting a mountain in France!
I try small footy parks then 5-a-side before playing 11-a-side jnr leagues!
I try local go-kart fun days before moving up to real karts!
..you get the idea..

but in golf, friends who tried when I was younger and friends who tried when older were put on the first tee and pointed to a green which appeared to be 3 miles away to them, with a 4 ball of cat1's or regular roll ups behind them all champing to get under way.

Pressure, embarrassment, lack of confidence and no fun are the main things they get from that experience imo, not all experiences are equal but if the transition starts with fun, confidence building, inclusion and more fun it can only be positive for the game short medium and long term.

In writing this (meant it to be a few lines, sorry) it triggered memories of my first venture into golf which was a municipal par 3 pitch'n'putt, some lovely looking holes and you had a 5 iron, rubber putter and ran after the ball as it skittered to a 'green' 45 yds away, we went every other day at school holidays and we had fun, no rules, just get it in the hole in fewest shots. 

My passion and love of the game is as strong now as it was then.

I wonder what would have happened if I had started on a 'big' course and the associated pressures.

Food for thought and a great thread:thup:


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 25, 2014)

Random thought off top of head given comments about par 3 courses - I'm wondering if could we create a sub-course?

My track has a quick 5-holes inner loop (5,4,3,4,3).  I'm wondering if we could convert these holes into a little 9-holer from time to time for juniors or indeed newbies.  Our 1st is a long par 5 - so make it 2 very short par 4s and a par 3.  Our second a very long par 4  - again make it two very short par 4s and a par 3; 3rd is a par three - keep; 4th is a short par 4 - keep; 13th par 3 - keep.

So 9-hole card would be something like 4,4,3,4,4,3,3,4,3

And just have some 'temps' cut for new greens - nothing fancy at all.

This may be totally impractical - and I haven't considered whether we'd have this mini-course permanently set out and available for play at certain times etc etc. or set up from time to time. Just a random thought to create a quick and short sub-course.


----------



## vkurup (Feb 25, 2014)

Our P3 is 18 holer.. but it is a story of two halfs.  the front 9 is a '_easy peasy lemon squeezy_' track where the 6-7 year olds get on the green in two.  The back 9 is a different story with uphill, downhill, long holes mixed in. Once you get a hang of golf, it is interesting to see how many would rather play the back nine rather than the front!! Just goes to show that you need some stabiliser wheels at the start but then you will be on a roll soon..


----------



## vkurup (Feb 25, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Random thought off top of head given comments about par 3 courses - I'm wondering if could we create a sub-course?

My track has a quick 5-holes inner loop (5,4,3,4,3).  I'm wondering if we could convert these holes into a little 9-holer from time to time for juniors or indeed newbies.  O*ur 1st is a long par 5 - so make it 2 very short par 4s and a par 3.  Our second a very long par 4  - again make it two very short par 4s and a par 3*; 3rd is a par three - keep; 4th is a short par 4 - keep; 13th par 3 - keep.

So 9-hole card would be something like 4,4,3,4,4,3,3,4,3

And just have some 'temps' cut for new greens - nothing fancy at all.

This may be totally impractical - and I haven't considered whether we'd have this mini-course permanently set out and available for play at certain times etc etc. or set up from time to time. Just a random thought to create a quick and short sub-course.
		
Click to expand...

For existing courses, rather than cut up holes, would it be more practical to have a *'Junior tee' *which is half way down the middle?  That way the course will maintain it's 'integrity', dont spend a lot and the Juniors will know where to play all the time.   Just a thought (but this is the kind of idea I would like to see in a hackathon)


----------



## Khamelion (Feb 25, 2014)

Very good thread and a good read, so out of curiosity I asked my 17yr daughter would she consider playing golf, without even having to think about it, her reply was, no.

I asked her why, she said golf was boring and expensive.

So I asked what could be done to improve it or what could be done to make her want to play. Simply put, she is a brand freak, if it's not labelled and in fashion it's not considered, so from that I would deduce if the top brands Adidas, Nike, Puma and others produce affordable kit aimed at the fashion conscience younger generation, that includes clubs and clothing. 

On the excitement side, a little bit of tongue in cheek from her was that there should be balloons that go off and party poppers exploding when you get a good score. I think what she was referring to was a hole in one. That flippancy aside if the game could be made more exciting, not sure how, then the younger generation may become more inclined to try the game.

The other thing she mentioned was the walking, which I think is associated to being boring, walking being something old people do to keep fit, she may have a point.


----------



## Hammertoe (Feb 25, 2014)

I think that is a fantastic post Beau and I totally agree with you, golf is what it is and we all play it because we love it, it is a ludicrosly expensive sport though if you want the best equipment, so I can see why new players would be put off, but you can walk into sports direct now and buy a full set of clubs and woods for Â£100, thats the same price as a good pair of football boots or a tennis racket, I absolutely agree that companies like TM need to put more money back into the sport rather than their pockets, initiatives should be brought into schools to get young people playing, when I was at school it was rugby or hockey, take it or leave it. 

Sorry i'm waffling a bit, basically the game of golf is exciting enough, watch the ryder cup and tell me its not awesome, big companies need to pump more money into 'grass roots' (sorry to steal a footy term) golf, and I still feel that a lot of young people consider golf to be a fuddy duddy game played by old men wearing pringle jumpers, but that is hopefully slowly changing with the assurgance of the Rickie Fowlers and Bubba Watsons of the game.

Golf doesnt need to change, young peoples vision of it needs to


----------



## HawkeyeMS (Feb 25, 2014)

The perception of golf being boring comes from two groups of people...


Those who have tried it and find it boring
Those who haven't tried it and assume it's boring

The first group aren't likely to change. I find cricket boring, they invented 2020 and I still find it boring, nothing they do will make me want to go and play cricket so as far as golf is concerned, there is no point wasting time on them.

The second group need to be given the chance to try it. I'm sure if we got into schools we would get more kids playing, they won't all like it but you can't force them and we shouldn't in my opinion be changing the game to make them like it. Find the ones that do and focus your time on them. The other added benefit is that it is one of few sports parents and kids can actually do together, encourage the kids and you'll get some parents involved too.


----------



## Junior (Feb 25, 2014)

The game we know and love does not need to change. 

The issue at hand is how to encourage people to take it up and stick it out.  The simple facts are that it is extremely hard to play golf when you have never swung a golf club before, and, as pointed out above, it is very expensive.  New players are therefore switched off instantly. The expensive perspective needs to change.  Particularly in England.  

I think members clubs and the Golf Unions need to step up here.  I'm not familiar with "Hack Golf" but my own personal belief is that clubs, especially the pro's, should reach out to schools and to improve 'grass roots' golf.  The pro could do lessons at the school and the clubs could run lessons for juniors on a morning in the Summer holidays.  The Golf Unions could support the pro with funding for such a specific activity (provide subsidies for equipment for use in the lessons etc).  Also, In addition to reaching out to schools, they should reach out to the local communities to encourage the participation of adults.  The clubs and pro's should facilitate 'introductions to golf' and make it clear that it is for beginners.  

Quite simply (in the main) today people have to seek out how to get into golf.  Very rarely do you see pro-active recruitment targeting beginners getting into the game.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 25, 2014)

vkurup said:



			For existing courses, rather than cut up holes, would it be more practical to have a *'Junior tee' *which is half way down the middle?  That way the course will maintain it's 'integrity', dont spend a lot and the Juniors will know where to play all the time.   Just a thought (but this is the kind of idea I would like to see in a hackathon)
		
Click to expand...

True - you could - but my idea was to find a way of using 5 holes we have that form a natural loop and don't take long to walk round - and turn them into a little nine-holer. Maybe we just would do this if we ran occasional 'open' days for  non-members - and for say an hour or so of that day kids could go off the 1st tee and play this mini course.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 25, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			The perception of golf being boring comes from two groups of people...


Those who have tried it and find it boring
Those who haven't tried it and assume it's boring

The first group aren't likely to change. I find cricket boring, they invented 2020 and I still find it boring, nothing they do will make me want to go and play cricket so as far as golf is concerned, there is no point wasting time on them.

The second group need to be given the chance to try it. I'm sure if we got into schools we would get more kids playing, they won't all like it but you can't force them and we shouldn't in my opinion be changing the game to make them like it. Find the ones that do and focus your time on them. The other added benefit is that it is one of few sports parents and kids can actually do together, encourage the kids and you'll get some parents involved too.
		
Click to expand...

So true sir!  My lad is coming up 22 and about to complete his degree and expects to return to the nest - for a while at least.  He looks the most unlikely golfer but he loves it and is thinking of taking it up again.  He enjoys it because of the challenge and getting out.  And he was a member of my place from age 11-14 and had proper lessons (then cricket became his game).  He knows he can play and that although it isn't easy it's not impossible.  

He's not bothered that a round of golf will take a few hours - but I can tell you for nothing that he absolutely won't put up with spending 4hrs 30mins to get round the golf course and then be told that that is OK.  Absolutely a non-starter. Three and half hours - maybe a tad longer - and that's it.  Even although he really enjoys the game he just won't accept 4 and half hour rounds.  

Much other golf club stuff he thinks is silly but accepts it because he knows it's important to the likes of me and other members.  Clothing, length of time to play and being treated like an adult and not in any sort of condescending way.  These will be the things that make or break playing golf for him.  And he absolutely detests any form of snobbery.

He is also quite happy with the game as it is - no need to change anything about it at all.

I'm also putting forward the idea of a father and son membership that has very significantly reduced gents membership element.  Reason again goes to my own experience.  I joined when my lad was 11 and we joined together.  But as he was a complete newbie he only wanted to play with me and I couldn't play with him 'normal' times and couldn't fit in playing with him and playing as a normal member - so the latter gave. My golf was therefore very limited to afternoons and late in day - and I couldn't play in comps etc.  B ut I've now been a member 11 yrs and my lad is still keen - and as I said above - ready to play again.


----------



## CMAC (Feb 25, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			True - you could - but my idea was to find a way of using 5 holes we have that form a natural loop and don't take long to walk round - and turn them into a little nine-holer. Maybe we just would do this if we ran occasional 'open' days for  non-members - and for say an hour or so of that day kids could go off the 1st tee and play this mini course.
		
Click to expand...

I see too many issues trying to effectively use the same space, might be a clubs only option though


----------



## vkurup (Feb 25, 2014)

Sorry could not help but share this....  Nipper came back from school today and said we wanted to play golf!!! We been watching the Accenture Matchplay as I was banged up.  Have to say, i was impressed with the improvisation.  




it only lasted about 5-7 mins after which Kung Fu Panda took over.  But I will still take it.


----------



## G1BB0 (Feb 25, 2014)

another issue with golf is location! Most clubs are out of or on the very edges of towns. For kids to want to play and be able to means access to courses this is an issue because unless parents are on hand to drop off/pick up then a lot wont even consider it due to the time it takes to get there (and costs as generally multiple buses or a lengthy walk may be involved).

Football etc can be played anywhere, computer games dont even need a kid to leave the house!

As golf clubs are a business in general it would be hard to have subsidised travel or special buses unless the clubs laid it on themselves.

You can have the best idea in the world but if folk can't get there then it wont work!!!


----------



## beau d. (Feb 25, 2014)

Well this has turned into a very good topic in my opinion, thanks everyone for their contributions up to now. I would like to respectfully address the editors reply, yes I had read what you had wrote properly, as I always read your article with interest when I first open the new months issue of GM, and there were many statements in that article which lead me to believe you were lending your ear towards radical changes in the game..... Quote, Changes need to be radical enough to provide a step change to spark and sustain growth in the next decade and beyond. Doing what we have always done just is not going to work, Ideas need to venture so far from tradition etc...... and after all it was your good self who ended in conceding your last two editors letters could be viewed as knocking our sport, anyway enough of that like I said my post was not intended to be a personal attack on you or anyone as after all we are all entitled to our views whatever they may be, but to address a worry I have with the insistence from many authoritative quarters that the game needed to change.

What has become very apparent from my post is that many other forum members are equally as concerned with this proposed change and I feel there has been some excellent ideas put forward which avoid the need for radical change to keep our game alive and ticking. Top of the list is the problem really lies mainly with Affordability and to a lesser degree Exclusivity of the sport. 

 Like I say there have been many excellent ideas muted, most are already in place, like Par 3 courses but they need to be pushed further forward and made more affordable. A well maintained Par 3 course is an excellent place for youngsters to, like most of us have, get the bug, after all it is of no use sending a young hopeful out with a 450 yd par 4 introducing them to the game, but a 90 yd par 3 will be a much more achievable introduction and much more likely to make them want to come back for more.

 Municipal courses, these have been in great decline sadly as they provide a very affordable challenge where prospective golfers can cut their teeth. They are generally around Â£10 a round, great value in my opinion compared to a seat at the Emirates for an A rated game costing Â£90+ for an hour and a half.

Free game introduction classes at Golf clubs followed by game improvement classes ( I do understand many clubs already offer this facility often provided by members but we need more) for youngsters.

All of the above and similar suggestions I feel if put into place and advertised in schools etc will have the desired effect, the participants too like most of us were will become hooked on this fantastic game But! it needs financing, and like I said there is no more money at Golf Clubs at present to do so, hence my call on the big manufacturers. I am not asking them to pay mine or other established members subs if or when we fall on hard times but simply to return some of their massive profits ( The Editor states TM are making 5 million dollars available, a drop in the ocean considering their 6 month turnover was 1.012 billion dollars and they are the most profitable golf manufacturer, however I will concede it is a start) to run an under threat municipal course for a while until funds can be found instead of the course being closed, set up and finance schemes for Pros to run to give youngsters, indeed anyone a taster of the game, or better still build Par 3 and municipal courses themselves, perhaps I am living in cloud cuckoo land with my images of the future who knows.

What can GM and the likes do to help these ideas to happen, well we would be foolish to think they can change the world and force big manufacturers to stump up the cash, but what they can do is make a real big fuss and make headline news of manufacturers and the likes who do put cash into the game in the vague hope that it will encourage others to do the same


----------



## GB72 (Feb 25, 2014)

I am all for the idea of promoting in schools but I see another hurdle. How many can honestly say that certain sections of their club's would not rally against having a group of school kids using the facilities one or two afternoons a week, using the changing rooms or heaven forbid having kids in the clubhouse. How many cannot see complaints when the range, practice ground or putting green is occupied with a group of kids from the local school.I still feel that there are a lot more attitudes inside clubs that need to be addressed before the sport starts putting the word out that it is open and available to everyone. Golf does not need to change so much as some golfers do.


----------



## IainP (Feb 25, 2014)

Lots of good thoughts in this thread. From own limited experience - had the children through crazy golf, pitch n putt, and par 3 course, short 9 hole course. All good but they never really were hooked in. Not coming from a golfing family myself I was keen not to over push it. After a gap had another crack last summer (cheap membership deal) and the step up to the main course still seemed significant. It is a hard game, esp when learning, which is much of its charm to those of us hooked, but as others have said there is a lot of competition in other activities out there for young uns.


----------



## Siren (Feb 25, 2014)

For the life of me I dont understand why the big brands dont make cheap half starter sets. Sort of driver Hybrid 5/7/9 Sw Putter and make them half decent. If you start golf out as affordable and something everyone can get into then more will play.

If you start with a half set of TM clubs then surely you wil move onto a better set of TM clubs. Most people dont get custom fitted ( I undertstand why) So will more than likely stick with a particular brand.


----------



## richart (Feb 25, 2014)

One of the problems with golf is it is so difficult to learn. When I did some tennis coaching the little kids, four years up, could hit the soft tennis balls, with the big light rackets, no problem. When kids much older, say 10 take up golf it is so difficult to hit a ball reasonably well, and a lot lose interest. Perhaps bigger balls which are easier to get in the air might be the answer ?


----------



## GB72 (Feb 25, 2014)

richart said:



			One of the problems with golf is it is so difficult to learn. When I did some tennis coaching the little kids, four years up, could hit the soft tennis balls, with the big light rackets, no problem. When kids much older, say 10 take up golf it is so difficult to hit a ball reasonably well, and a lot lose interest. Perhaps bigger balls which are easier to get in the air might be the answer ?
		
Click to expand...

Or these non complying clubs that TM have mooted, perhaps they could throw everything they can to make a set easier to use and these are allowed up to a certain age or ability.

There is also the issue of kids growing out of clubs. Perhaps a guaranteed trade in value if you buy the next size up in the same brand.


----------



## vkurup (Feb 26, 2014)

Picking up on a different issues - audience participation.  One of the fundamental difference between golf and other sport is the fact that unlike other sports, golf is not played in an arena like space.  This means you cannot generate the 'excitement' that you can do for games like cricket, footy, tennis etc.  Hence moving to a shorter version of the game like IPL/T20, 5-a-side footy, extreme NFL etc will not be able to generate audience participation.  

IMO, the only sport that comes close to this is motorsport like F1 or Rally sports.  F1 is very similar - some key players, 4 days leading to big weekend, spectators are restricted to seeing a small part of a race.  F1 has introduced changes like night racing in Singapore, KRS etc.

Golf is making some changes.. The caddy race in Phoenix 16th hole is interesting (though I think this wont fly with the Elf&Safety guys here).  We are also seeing interesting players coming thru - Fowler, IJP, Bubba, Dubission?, Duffner etc.  It just mixes things up and attracts the younger crowd.  If I had a penny for people around the course now wearing or carrying clubs in Orange thanks to the Fowler effect. All this is good for the game.

To toss another  idea, would it be possible to hook up some of the players or their caddies with microphones so they can talk thru what they are intending to do or why they chose to do something etc.  Cricket/T20/IPL tries that and it can be interesting to hear what the players are thinking.


----------



## G.U.R (Feb 26, 2014)

Golf clubs and Driving Ranges need to have summer camps where kids get a chance to hit a few balls speak to the professional at a reasonable price. From what I have seen at most clubs is that the Juniors are made up of kids whose parents are Golfers which is quite a narrow target area. Advertise these events get the kids with their parents in and let them hit a few balls, what would they loose on a weeday summer morning??


----------



## GB72 (Feb 26, 2014)

Part of the issue is going to be the cost. The pro is going to want paying for his time, the club needs someone to man the shop etc whilst he is off teaching kids and then the issue arises of how many people you need to manage and keep safe a group of kids. Then you have the fact that many driving ranges/practice areas can only take a relatively small number of kids hitting a ball at one time so you have the occupy the others who are not hitting balls and ensure that they remain safe. Then you have the fact that at my club in any event, many of the golfers who play midweek are of a mind not to want groups of kids running around the club. Then they will want to use the clubhouse and many of those have attitudes like pubs in the 70's where kids sat outside and were brought drinks etc and certainly were not allowed to set foot inside. 

My concern is that clubs at present in both facilities and attitudes are not geared up for entertaining large groups of kids. As such, it would seem sensible to ensure that changes are made to this before having a mass marketing campaign which cannot be backed up with a good experience of the game.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 26, 2014)

vkurup said:



			Picking up on a different issues - audience participation.  One of the fundamental difference between golf and other sport is the fact that unlike other sports, golf is not played in an arena like space.  This means you cannot generate the 'excitement' that you can do for games like cricket, footy, tennis etc.  Hence moving to a shorter version of the game like IPL/T20, 5-a-side footy, extreme NFL etc will not be able to generate audience participation.  

IMO, the only sport that comes close to this is motorsport like F1 or Rally sports.  F1 is very similar - some key players, 4 days leading to big weekend, spectators are restricted to seeing a small part of a race.  F1 has introduced changes like night racing in Singapore, KRS etc.

Golf is making some changes.. The caddy race in Phoenix 16th hole is interesting (though I think this wont fly with the Elf&Safety guys here).  We are also seeing interesting players coming thru - Fowler, IJP, Bubba, Dubission?, Duffner etc.  It just mixes things up and attracts the younger crowd.  If I had a penny for people around the course now wearing or carrying clubs in Orange thanks to the Fowler effect. All this is good for the game.

To toss another  idea, would it be possible to hook up some of the players or their caddies with microphones so they can talk thru what they are intending to do or why they chose to do something etc.  Cricket/T20/IPL tries that and it can be interesting to hear what the players are thinking.
		
Click to expand...

Good point about audience participation/excitement.  

Society nowadays is brought up seeking more quick instant gratification and exciting sporting action.  And no matter how you dress it up, golf is not that.  As an aficionado of the sport I really struggle to watch most tournaments on TV as it is a bit dull. If you think about it, what percentage of a 5 hour plus round from a golfer is something vaguely interesting actually happening that will engage a viewer, i.e. a shot has been hit and the ball is moving.  5%??? So you get TV flitting from one player to another and there just does not seem to be any coherence or narrative, it's difficult to get a story as it's just shot after shot.  And this is even worse when you watch 'target golf' in the US.

No idea what the answer is other than to get youngsters hooked early, as I fear golf will just lose out to other sports as people get older.


----------



## GB72 (Feb 26, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Good point about audience participation/excitement.  

Society nowadays is brought up seeking more quick instant gratification and exciting sporting action.  And no matter how you dress it up, golf is not that.  As an aficionado of the sport I really struggle to watch most tournaments on TV as it is a bit dull. If you think about it, what percentage of a 5 hour plus round from a golfer is something vaguely interesting that will engage a viewer actually happening, i.e. a shot has been hit and the ball is moving.  5%??? So you get TV flitting from one player to another and there just does not seem to be any coherence or narrative, it's difficult to get a story as it's just shot after shot.  And this is even worse when you watch 'target golf' in the US.

No idea what the answer is other than to get youngsters hooked early, as I fear golf will just lose out to other sports as people get older.
		
Click to expand...

I agree with that. Golf is really only a sport that you can watch if you know what is going on and are invested in the result enough to be excited about who wins. 

Recently I have been to a couple of ice hockey matches. I have no idea what is going on for most of it but it is fast paced with a great atmosphere and plenty of bells and whistles so I have had a good time and want to find out more about the sport (though you would never get me on ice). Golf just cannot follow that. The crowds are encouraged to be quiet, there is no build up of excitement on the course and so, to a non fan, the whole event is boring and tiresome. Add to that, at a live event, the overall spectacle is not that great for an individual and you would be struggling to convert a non fan. My wife has slowly started to pick up on a few sports that she likes to watch (Ice Hockey being one) but however much I try, golf just does not float her boat. 

It also does not help that the big names are hardly in this country. In most sports I follow, if I want to go and see the big names play in this country then I can. In golf, you may see the top UK Players 3-4 times this year.


----------



## bladeplayer (Feb 26, 2014)

GB72 said:



			I agree with that. Golf is really only a sport that you can watch if you know what is going on and are invested in the result enough to be excited about who wins. 

Recently I have been to a couple of ice hockey matches. I have no idea what is going on for most of it but it is fast paced with a great atmosphere and plenty of bells and whistles so I have had a good time and want to find out more about the sport (though you would never get me on ice). Golf just cannot follow that. The crowds are encouraged to be quiet, there is no build up of excitement on the course and so, to a non fan, the whole event is boring and tiresome. Add to that, at a live event, the overall spectacle is not that great for an individual and you would be struggling to convert a non fan. My wife has slowly started to pick up on a few sports that she likes to watch (Ice Hockey being one) but however much I try, golf just does not float her boat. 

It also does not help that the big names are hardly in this country. In most sports I follow, if I want to go and see the big names play in this country then I can. In golf, you may see the top UK Players 3-4 times this year.
		
Click to expand...


What would the cricket fans have thought at the beginning of the One dayers & the the T20 tho , surely it was of the same kind of quietness & correctness as we currently have in golf .. it appears to have worked for them 

Your bang on regarding the lack of "big " named players in the country tho , that has to have an effect


----------



## fundy (Feb 26, 2014)

GB72 said:



			I am all for the idea of promoting in schools but I see another hurdle. How many can honestly say that certain sections of their club's would not rally against having a group of school kids using the facilities one or two afternoons a week, using the changing rooms or heaven forbid having kids in the clubhouse. How many cannot see complaints when the range, practice ground or putting green is occupied with a group of kids from the local school.I still feel that there are a lot more attitudes inside clubs that need to be addressed before the sport starts putting the word out that it is open and available to everyone. Golf does not need to change so much as some golfers do.
		
Click to expand...

We have it at our place and it is openly encouraged by pretty much every member I know. 

One of our teaching pro's runs academy lessons mainly in school holidays but also some on weekend afternoons, they use the range, the chipping green, the putting green and sometimes even go out onto the course if its quiet enough (they usually play half length holes on the longer holes). Sadly, there seems to be an exceptionally low conversion rate from these sessions to junior members (to the point I believe we've pulled out of the junior league this year as we dont have enough juniors to make a team!) As someone has already mentioned, our club like many is in the middle of nowhere, so is 100% dependent on parents a) knowing about it and b) being prepared to take the kids to it. 

The club has land (and plans) for an additional full 9 holes, there has recently been some talk that instead they may put an academy course of some sort on the land rather than a full 9 holes, which imo would be a better option in terms of the longevity of the game. The big issue I tend to find with par 3 and shorter courses is that invariably they arent kept to the same standards the main course is which then makes them less desirable even to those who are beginners at the game, just because the game is shorter the course should still be in similar condition.


----------



## fundy (Feb 26, 2014)

bladeplayer said:



			What would the cricket fans have thought at the beginning of the One dayers & the the T20 tho , surely it was of the same kind of quietness & correctness as we currently have in golf .. it appears to have worked for them 

Your bang on regarding the lack of "big " named players in the country tho , that has to have an effect
		
Click to expand...

I find it amusing the references on this thread to T20 and how successful it has been and how great it is for cricket. There are plenty of people, myself partly included, who actually think it will be the death or near death of the sport. Whilst it has introduced a lot of people into the sport (as spectators) that wouldnt have necessarily attended before, it has come at a pretty large cost to the game generally.

Firstly, a lot of the T20 games have become evening games where the focus for a large proportion becomes more about the drinking and partying than actually the sport on show (is that what golf club members want golf to go towards?). 

Secondly, these shorter format games have hugely increased the corruption within the sport, the more money that has come into the game and the much shorter timescale betting opportunities have opened up many avenues for those who want to corrupt (especially through the betting markets). Golf is one of if not the least corrupt sports, and part of this is related to the length of time it takes for an event (and that it is very difficult to make much money betting on someone to lose) 

Thirdly, look at the state the "original" format of the game is in. Test cricket is dying, despite being the best format for the majority who have always been cricket lovers. Because it is not as financially viable as the shorter formats, test cricket is being more and more marginalised, whether that is actually what the fans want or not (money as always is king)

Fourthly, money first everything else second. There is currently a proposal going through which will change the way cricket is run, basically giving all the power to india, england and australia. Basically the 3 big boards are bullying the other countries into a situation where they have more control, a bigger share of revenues etc. They are reducing the revenues to developing countires, reducing playing opportunities for smaller nations, reducing the future tours plan etc, all which basically are bad for the worldwide game but good for their coffers.

Im not saying that changes in golf will cause the same problems but holding T20 up as a beacon and a model to follow is a very danger one imo, be very careful what you wish for


----------



## bladeplayer (Feb 26, 2014)

fundy said:



			I find it amusing the references on this thread to T20 and how successful it has been and how great it is for cricket. There are plenty of people, myself partly included, who actually think it will be the death or near death of the sport. Whilst it has introduced a lot of people into the sport (as spectators) that wouldnt have necessarily attended before, it has come at a pretty large cost to the game generally.

Firstly, a lot of the T20 games have become evening games where the focus for a large proportion becomes more about the drinking and partying than actually the sport on show (is that what golf club members want golf to go towards?). 

Secondly, these shorter format games have hugely increased the corruption within the sport, the more money that has come into the game and the much shorter timescale betting opportunities have opened up many avenues for those who want to corrupt (especially through the betting markets). Golf is one of if not the least corrupt sports, and part of this is related to the length of time it takes for an event (and that it is very difficult to make much money betting on someone to lose) 

Thirdly, look at the state the "original" format of the game is in. Test cricket is dying, despite being the best format for the majority who have always been cricket lovers. Because it is not as financially viable as the shorter formats, test cricket is being more and more marginalised, whether that is actually what the fans want or not (money as always is king)

Fourthly, money first everything else second. There is currently a proposal going through which will change the way cricket is run, basically giving all the power to india, england and australia. Basically the 3 big boards are bullying the other countries into a situation where they have more control, a bigger share of revenues etc. They are reducing the revenues to developing countires, reducing playing opportunities for smaller nations, reducing the future tours plan etc, all which basically are bad for the worldwide game but good for their coffers.

Im not saying that changes in golf will cause the same problems but holding T20 up as a beacon and a model to follow is a very danger one imo, be very careful what you wish for
		
Click to expand...


I wouldnt have been aware of all the points you raised Fundy  as i would be on the outside looking in , that is really interesting to read & is an eye opener to me .

if this was to be the case i would say the short term gain is definately not worth the long term consequences for the sport , i guess thw answer would be to take the "good" workable bits from other sports and apply them , somehow ..

I think skill challenges are fun to watch when i have seen them , so try build some fun around them some how


----------



## vkurup (Feb 26, 2014)

fundy said:



			I find it amusing the references on this thread to T20 and how successful it has been and how great it is for cricket. There are plenty of people, myself partly included, who actually think it will be the death or near death of the sport. Whilst it has introduced a lot of people into the sport (as spectators) that wouldnt have necessarily attended before, it has come at a pretty large cost to the game generally.
		
Click to expand...

Agree... as I mentioned in my prev post, the IPL approach is probably not the best one for the game as it does not work for the format.  However there are things that you can do to pep it up.  You need players, spectators and competitions to find some innovation.  I go back to the Phoenix open.. 
Not sure you can get many other than Bubba, IJP, Fowler do something like this.. http://youtu.be/dOFD-ipQ0pM 

Interesting link... http://www.azcentral.com/sports/gol...-banned-at-waste-management-phoenix-open.html

True it will bring more spectators rather than actual player.  But once you watch a game, you will look it up further or even encourage your kids to try...  Never seen, never tried.


----------



## JCW (Feb 26, 2014)

If you write  this way in GM you will lose many readers , get your point about money going back into the game , more should go to each junior section at every club to promote this great game


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Feb 26, 2014)

G.U.R said:



			Golf clubs and Driving Ranges need to have summer camps where kids get a chance to hit a few balls speak to the professional at a reasonable price. From what I have seen at most clubs is that the Juniors are made up of kids whose parents are Golfers which is quite a narrow target area. Advertise these events get the kids with their parents in and let them hit a few balls, what would they loose on a weeday summer morning??
		
Click to expand...

Interesting point. I first learned at the range in the middle of Sandown Park racecourse. An hour per day for a week tuition with a pro on the basics and a dustbin full of balls. We could stay and hit until the bin was empty. Great introduction and got me hooked.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

Local pros are now doing an hour a week in local shoes are leighton - apparently it's now the most popular PE lesson


----------



## MikeH (Feb 26, 2014)

When I'm not being logged out of the forum at random (it this just me?) I've been enjoying keeping up to date with this thread. Lots of interesting ideas and views being exchanged

A few more thoughtsâ€¦.

Par 3 courses 
I agree this shortened time/less difficult experience offers much more accessible entry point to the game than the full length 18-hole course.

So more par 3/short courses, with cheap green fees, hire clubs to use, a more relaxed dress codes and a good wraparound experience (decent facilities/food and drink) could only help. However I believe something even more radical is needed to make the sort of step change we need to reverse the decline in participation

Big easy to hit clubs and adventure golf style have both been mentioned â€“ I think thatâ€™s more like itâ€¦

Golf Foundation
As Fish said Iâ€™m a big supporter of this and have written several edâ€™s letters over the years highlighting their work and encouraging GM readers to donate a couple of quid (one of my clubs does this automatically via annual subs but the other two donâ€™t) to the charity to help support the work they do.

The GF a great job of introducing kids to golf - mainly in a school setting - but something goes wrong under the present system (not the GFâ€™s fault) as only a modest percentage go on to the â€˜realâ€™ game of golf. In my view this is the crux of the problem 

PowerPlay
This was an idea to make golf more exciting (really with a view to making it a viable Tour event proposition) and then hoping clubs would become PP venues and host PP events as an occasional alternative to medals, stablefords.

I think it failed because it made an already tough game even tougher (its hard enough for most golfers to hit the green let alone go for a flag tucked away behind a bunker!) and among established golfers 18 hole rounds in traditional formats are still king so the desire to change wasnâ€™t there. 

Tradition
As a member of two of the oldest, most historic clubs in England, someone views themselves as a student of the history of the game, who enjoys playing foursomes, attending men only black tie dinners, drinking kummel until I cant speak and has no issue changing into a jacket and tie for lunch between rounds at places like Muirfield and Rye believe me, I get tradition. To me, itâ€™s one of the big appeals of the game to me along with the honesty and integrity of the sport and the fact that brain often wins over brawn.  

However to the outsider who might be interested in getting into golf traditions can seem baffling and/or intimidating. Over time I believe you can learn to appreciate the gameâ€™s traditions and accept golfâ€™s many rules (be they on the course or in the club house) but at the entry point (I keep using that phrase because thatâ€™s the bit of the game about in eds letter) they are barriers to getting involved.

I think a significant percentage of posters in this thread are looking at the situation through the eyes of a person who is fully immersed in the game and probably has been for years.

It was very interesting to read vkurups post â€“ who as a relative newcomer to the game has been through the process of â€˜getting into golfâ€™ quite recently. I doff my cap to him. That level of determination to overcome the barriers our game puts up is atypical in my view.

I suspect almost everyone who posts in the forum fits into the category of avid golfer (play on average once a week). This category is losing a few golfers but broadly speaking itâ€™s doing OK. Itâ€™s the old 80/20 rule â€“ 80% of golf is played by 20% and the 20% are the avids.

Looking at things from the perspective of an avid golfer can lead to an insular view of the game because the â€˜problemsâ€™ avid golfers face are more along the lines ofâ€¦
â€¢	I canâ€™t get a good tee time in the medal
â€¢	The catering doesnâ€™t start until 9am
â€¢	The depth of sand in the bunkers is inconsistent There are too many society groups at my club 
â€¢	You cant play from the white tees all the time

Iâ€™m being a little flippant there but the avid playersâ€™ issues are the golfing equivalent of the phrase â€˜first world problemsâ€™ â€“ ie not being able to get any really decent Burgundy down at your local One Stop.

I doubt many of us get see what its like at other end of things â€“ whether that be at the entry point to the game or even the situation where youâ€™re only playing a handful of times a year and each time you pick up a club you think to yourself. â€œBlimey, this game is really quite difficultâ€ â€“ but itâ€™s a long way from the world of the midweek roll up. 

My view is that the wider game of golf turns its back on occasional and current non golfers at its peril because with a bit of effort they could be the avid golfers of the future and teeing it up with you in the 2018 Captainâ€™s Texas Scramble  

When someone says golf doesnâ€™t need to change (as many have on this thread) it may not need to change for them to keep on enjoying their golf but it certainly does if the next generation of golfers are to be found and immersed in the game to the level we all are.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Feb 26, 2014)

That's a cracking post Mike 

I think whatever the companies do try needs to be done with the traditions and values of golf in mind 

The game does need to grow but it's hard to target an age group whose main focus is building a career and family ( 20-30 year old )

Getting them early into group sessions appears to work but as they grow older cost then becomes a factor 

If companies and clubs want to change things then the cost of things need to change

Bringing out clubs at Â£350 isn't going to do that 

Find ways to make golf more affordable


----------



## vkurup (Feb 27, 2014)

Well summarised Mike... (and thanks for reading my post)

Another interesting article about Robert Rock's view on some of the issues. 
http://www.europeantour.com/europeantour/season=2014/tournamentid=2014015/news/newsid=218278.html


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 27, 2014)

MikeH said:



			When I'm not being logged out of the forum at random (it this just me?) I've been enjoying keeping up to date with this thread. Lots of interesting ideas and views being exchanged

A few more thoughtsâ€¦.

Par 3 courses 
I agree this shortened time/less difficult experience offers much more accessible entry point to the game than the full length 18-hole course.

So more par 3/short courses, with cheap green fees, hire clubs to use, a more relaxed dress codes and a good wraparound experience (decent facilities/food and drink) could only help. However I believe something even more radical is needed to make the sort of step change we need to reverse the decline in participation

Big easy to hit clubs and adventure golf style have both been mentioned â€“ I think thatâ€™s more like itâ€¦

Golf Foundation
As Fish said Iâ€™m a big supporter of this and have written several edâ€™s letters over the years highlighting their work and encouraging GM readers to donate a couple of quid (one of my clubs does this automatically via annual subs but the other two donâ€™t) to the charity to help support the work they do.

The GF a great job of introducing kids to golf - mainly in a school setting - but something goes wrong under the present system (not the GFâ€™s fault) as only a modest percentage go on to the â€˜realâ€™ game of golf. In my view this is the crux of the problem 

PowerPlay
This was an idea to make golf more exciting (really with a view to making it a viable Tour event proposition) and then hoping clubs would become PP venues and host PP events as an occasional alternative to medals, stablefords.

I think it failed because it made an already tough game even tougher (its hard enough for most golfers to hit the green let alone go for a flag tucked away behind a bunker!) and among established golfers 18 hole rounds in traditional formats are still king so the desire to change wasnâ€™t there. 

Tradition
As a member of two of the oldest, most historic clubs in England, someone views themselves as a student of the history of the game, who enjoys playing foursomes, attending men only black tie dinners, drinking kummel until I cant speak and has no issue changing into a jacket and tie for lunch between rounds at places like Muirfield and Rye believe me, I get tradition. To me, itâ€™s one of the big appeals of the game to me along with the honesty and integrity of the sport and the fact that brain often wins over brawn.  

However to the outsider who might be interested in getting into golf traditions can seem baffling and/or intimidating. Over time I believe you can learn to appreciate the gameâ€™s traditions and accept golfâ€™s many rules (be they on the course or in the club house) but at the entry point (I keep using that phrase because thatâ€™s the bit of the game about in eds letter) they are barriers to getting involved.

I think a significant percentage of posters in this thread are looking at the situation through the eyes of a person who is fully immersed in the game and probably has been for years.

It was very interesting to read vkurups post â€“ who as a relative newcomer to the game has been through the process of â€˜getting into golfâ€™ quite recently. I doff my cap to him. That level of determination to overcome the barriers our game puts up is atypical in my view.

I suspect almost everyone who posts in the forum fits into the category of avid golfer (play on average once a week). This category is losing a few golfers but broadly speaking itâ€™s doing OK. Itâ€™s the old 80/20 rule â€“ 80% of golf is played by 20% and the 20% are the avids.

Looking at things from the perspective of an avid golfer can lead to an insular view of the game because the â€˜problemsâ€™ avid golfers face are more along the lines ofâ€¦
â€¢    I canâ€™t get a good tee time in the medal
â€¢    The catering doesnâ€™t start until 9am
â€¢    The depth of sand in the bunkers is inconsistent There are too many society groups at my club 
â€¢    You cant play from the white tees all the time

Iâ€™m being a little flippant there but the avid playersâ€™ issues are the golfing equivalent of the phrase â€˜first world problemsâ€™ â€“ ie not being able to get any really decent Burgundy down at your local One Stop.

I doubt many of us get see what its like at other end of things â€“ whether that be at the entry point to the game or *even the situation where youâ€™re only playing a handful of times a year and each time you pick up a club you think to yourself. â€œBlimey, this game is really quite difficultâ€* â€“ but itâ€™s a long way from the world of the midweek roll up. 

My view is that the wider game of golf turns its back on occasional and current non golfers at its peril because with a bit of effort they could be the avid golfers of the future and teeing it up with you in the 2018 Captainâ€™s Texas Scramble  

When someone says golf doesnâ€™t need to change (as many have on this thread) it may not need to change for them to keep on enjoying their golf but it certainly does if the next generation of golfers are to be found and immersed in the game to the level we all are.
		
Click to expand...

Top post, certainly the last paragraph.  As someone who plays a bit more than a handful of games a week, but am not a member of a club and does find the game really quite difficult, then I completely agree with what you are saying.  Well apart from liking male only black tie dinners, as that's just weird....


----------



## bluewolf (Feb 27, 2014)

Great post Mike. In full agreement with most of it. I agree that there is a place in Golf for "Tradition". I have no issue with putting the old jacket and tie on if needs be. I've played at some great historic clubs and that is part of the experience. I do think that some very average clubs need to realize that they are no longer able to enforce such traditions and stay financially viable..

One suggestion I would make, having spoken to both my children about golf (6yr old girl and 9yr old boy), they both view golf as "boring". I believe that this would change if they were able to participate with me.. I'd like to see a series of Parent/Child competitions organised. 9 hole competitions all around the country that would culminate in a Grand Final.. I'd happily pay a decent premium for this..


----------



## dufferman (Feb 27, 2014)

This is a great thread!

The likes of Fowler, Poulter etc who all seem to make a 'statement' on the course get people interested - my missus who, believe me, has ZERO interest in taking up the game knows both Poulter and Fowler - the one who 'sells the nice clothes' & the one who 'looks like the High School Musical guy'. I know that sounds silly, but she doesn't know who Westwood, Donald or many of the others are!

Why? Because these people are 'cool'. And golf needs to become 'cool' if the youth are going to get involved.

As much as tradition is a big part of the game, it's that that stops golf being 'cool'. It isn't 'cool' to have to wear a dinner jacket to be allowed entry to the clubhouse, nor is it 'cool' to not be allowed to use your mobile phone in there. Without leading this thread off in an all-together different direction, clubs that aren't so strict have more people in them, but never get publicity.

The BBC only show 2 golf tournaments a year. Both of which are held at the oldest, most traditional clubs you can imagine. This means that the 1 place people are likely to see Golf on TV are going to see this tradition and see it is 'uncool'.

Imagine if the Open in 2014 was held at a modern club, with a relaxed dress code in the clubhouse (and therefore the closing presentation). The winner is presented the claret jug in a relaxed outfit.

Maybe the on course commentators aren't a member of the old guard.

And at Augusta, the green jacket becomes the green hoody. 

I'm taking it a bit too far now, but you get the point. The rules of golf don't have to change dramatically, I think people would find a way to play with the rules in place (When I play golf for the enjoyment with friends rather than a comp, I break some rules, because it's for fun!), but what people won't do is go to a place they feel uncomfortable. Making a golf club a place to be, much like a football club's clubhouse after a Sunday league match, makes it 'cool', and therefor gets people going there.

Before people start changing the decoration, they need to think about opening the front door...


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2014)

Traditions - here's one I had a little friendly go at my club about.  

New Captains drive-in on Sunday. Of course a good number of previous gents and ladies captains were in attendance and as per tradition they lined up in two rows and formed a manically grinning arch out of clubs - a tunnel of clubs - for the new ladies and gents captain to walk 'through'.  

Now whilst we club members might smile and say 'how nice' - to be honest this is the sort of golf club image that to a non-golfer looks utterly and unbelievably naff and silly - and why would anyone want to be part of an institution that even thinks that such a ceremony is a good thing.  Just hope it doesn't get into the local press.

Yes I know...

But you get my drift!


----------



## vkurup (Feb 27, 2014)

*Traditions*
I am with Mike... I love the tradition. I think traditions define a game. The game has some very good traditions - Amateurs staying in the Crow Nest, having a black tie dinner once a year, the captain's drive in or the green jacket etc. *Once* you understand the history behind these, these traditions suddenly become aspiration. Every serious amateur would want to go to the Masters and stay in the crows nest or someone would want to become captain and walk thru a tunnel of clubs.  I am sure Fowler will shave off his hair if he could wear the green jacket.. you get the drift. Being cool is about being relevant rather than disregarding tradition.  

The issue with that there are some traditions that are have not kept pace with changes in society - male only clubs/dinners, wearing certain clothing only, too many rules that not many people understand etc. I am all for not using mobile phones in club house, but allow it elsewhere. Similarly allow DMD on phones for amateurs (as these are usually free). Dinner jacket for lunch?? now, that is a bit too far for me even though I wear a suit everyday.  

IMO, relax some of these and leave some of the other traditions alone for that is what I play for..


----------



## GB72 (Feb 27, 2014)

One competition that my club holds every year which is great for getting the family involved is the golfer/non golfer 9 hole comp. Basically the golfer plays tee to green and the non golfer putts. This gets kids, wifes and other family members who are not into golf out on the course and it gives a better idea of what the sport is like than an introduction on the driving range. It is followed by beer and a barbeque


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2014)

vkurup said:



*Traditions*
I am with Mike... I love the tradition. I think traditions define a game. The game has some very good traditions - Amateurs staying in the Crow Nest, having a black tie dinner once a year, the captain's drive in or the green jacket etc. *Once* you understand the history behind these, these traditions suddenly become aspiration. Every serious amateur would want to go to the Masters and stay in the crows nest or someone would want to become captain and walk thru a tunnel of clubs.  I am sure Fowler will shave off his hair if he could wear the green jacket.. you get the drift. Being cool is about being relevant rather than disregarding tradition.  

The issue with that there are some traditions that are have not kept pace with changes in society - male only clubs/dinners, wearing certain clothing only, too many rules that not many people understand etc. I am all for not using mobile phones in club house, but allow it elsewhere. Similarly allow DMD on phones for amateurs (as these are usually free). Dinner jacket for lunch?? now, that is a bit too far for me even though I wear a suit everyday.  

IMO, relax some of these and leave some of the other traditions alone for that is what I play for..
		
Click to expand...

In general I am with you totally on the 'traditions' front as I am a died in the wool traditionalist - but we don't need to make ourselves look silly and anachronistic to the outside world.  And we do.  A lot.  Often.


----------



## HawkeyeMS (Feb 27, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Traditions - here's one I had a little friendly go at my club about.  

New Captains drive-in on Sunday. Of course a good number of previous gents and ladies captains were in attendance and as per tradition they lined up in two rows and formed a manically grinning arch out of clubs - a tunnel of clubs - for the new ladies and gents captain to walk 'through'.  

Now whilst we club members might smile and say 'how nice' - to be honest this is the sort of golf club image that to a non-golfer looks utterly and unbelievably naff and silly - and why would anyone want to be part of an institution that even thinks that such a ceremony is a good thing.  Just hope it doesn't get into the local press.

Yes I know...

But you get my drift!
		
Click to expand...

Is this a golf club or the Masons ?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2014)

HawkeyeMS said:



			Is this a golf club or the Masons ?
		
Click to expand...

Well...precisely


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 27, 2014)

dufferman said:



			This is a great thread!

The likes of Fowler, Poulter etc who all seem to make a 'statement' on the course get people interested - my missus who, believe me, has ZERO interest in taking up the game knows both Poulter and Fowler - the one who 'sells the nice clothes' & the one who 'looks like the High School Musical guy'. I know that sounds silly, but she doesn't know who Westwood, Donald or many of the others are!

Why? Because these people are 'cool'. And golf needs to become 'cool' if the youth are going to get involved.

As much as tradition is a big part of the game, it's that that stops golf being 'cool'. It isn't 'cool' to have to wear a dinner jacket to be allowed entry to the clubhouse, nor is it 'cool' to not be allowed to use your mobile phone in there. Without leading this thread off in an all-together different direction, clubs that aren't so strict have more people in them, but never get publicity.

The BBC only show 2 golf tournaments a year. Both of which are held at the oldest, most traditional clubs you can imagine. This means that the 1 place people are likely to see Golf on TV are going to see this tradition and see it is 'uncool'.

Imagine if the Open in 2014 was held at a modern club, with a relaxed dress code in the clubhouse (and therefore the closing presentation). The winner is presented the claret jug in a relaxed outfit.

Maybe the on course commentators aren't a member of the old guard.

And at Augusta, the green jacket becomes the green hoody. 

I'm taking it a bit too far now, but you get the point. The rules of golf don't have to change dramatically, I think people would find a way to play with the rules in place (When I play golf for the enjoyment with friends rather than a comp, I break some rules, because it's for fun!), but what people won't do is go to a place they feel uncomfortable. Making a golf club a place to be, much like a football club's clubhouse after a Sunday league match, makes it 'cool', and therefor gets people going there.

Before people start changing the decoration, they need to think about opening the front door...
		
Click to expand...

Great points there (well apart from Poulter being cool as to me putting loud clothes on does not make you cool )

Very good point about the coverage on the BBC of golf that people may see and I totally agree with your point about the presentation.  It's a huge bugbear of mine in that it just sums up everything that is perceived to be wrong about golf and a part of me dies quietly when it starts.  You get Dawson and the G&T blazered chinless wonder brigade speaking in plumby tones looking like your badly dressed elderly uncle at a wedding representing the game of golf at the most prestigious golf tournament in the UK. I am sure if they could get away with it the presentation committee would like the winner to bow to them or at the very least doff their cap.

Look how Wimbledon does the presentations, that place has just as much 'tradition' as any golf course, but they have dragged themselves into the 21st century.


----------



## bluewolf (Feb 27, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			In general I am with you totally on the 'traditions' front as I am a died in the wool traditionalist - but we don't need to make ourselves look silly and anachronistic to the outside world.  And we do.  A lot.  Often.
		
Click to expand...

SiLH.. You are going to have to stop making so much sense.. If you and I keep agreeing like this, people will talk..


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 27, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Great points there (well apart from Poulter being cool as to me putting loud clothes on does not make you cool )

Very good point about the coverage on the BBC of golf that people may see and I totally agree with your point about the presentation.  It's a huge bugbear of mine in that it just sums up everything that is perceived to be wrong about golf and a part of me dies quietly when it starts.  You get Dawson and the G&T blazered chinless wonder brigade speaking in plumby tones looking like your badly dressed elderly uncle at a wedding representing the game of golf at the most prestigious golf tournament in the UK. I am sure if they could get away with it the presentation committee would like the winner to bow to them or at the very least doff their cap.

Look how Wimbledon does the presentations, that place has just as much 'tradition' as any golf course, but they have dragged themselves into the 21st century.
		
Click to expand...

And our blazered lot stand on or near the 18th green behind a little wooden table with a whole load of 'whos' in a line who are only there because of their status - and kids today detest overt displays of status - as pomposity and snobbery.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 27, 2014)

bluewolf said:



			SiLH.. You are going to have to stop making so much sense.. If you and I keep agreeing like this, people will talk..

Click to expand...

I think his account has been hacked as he is talking a bit of sense now


----------



## Snelly (Feb 27, 2014)

Some very interesting posts in this thread.

I don't agree that golf needs to change because I don't really share the view that a huge amount of effort needs to be put in to introduce the next generation of golfers.  Golf is self-sustaining as there will always be people that want to play the game with their best route into golf being via family and friends.  It has historically been the case, is now and probably always will be.

A new funky way of marketing, packaging and playing the game won't reverse a trend or encourage huge boosts in participation in my opinion.  

Natural supply and demand will ensure that the clubs that get their product right for their location and clientele will survive and prosper.  The clubs that don't will fail. 

Maybe golf has gone slightly beyond a saturation point in the UK and consequently, we are in a period of natural selection?


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Feb 27, 2014)

Snelly said:



			Golf is self-sustaining as there will always be people that want to play the game with their best route into golf being via family and friends. Maybe golf has gone slightly beyond a saturation point in the UK and consequently, we are in a period of natural selection?
		
Click to expand...

I disagree. The number of clubs closing continues to rise and there are many struggling to attract members. I don't think enough is being done to create members. Certainly I don't think a very large number of clubs, mine included to a certain degree, do enough to make the club a focal point and somewhere you'd consider using for a meal or social drink. It is all geared to the four (or five) hours of playing, a drink and maybe a quick bite and that's it until the next game.

I would love to see more people get into it. I think things like 60 60 golf at ranges have the potential to make hitting balls fun. If they enjoy that then some of the barriers and pre-conceptions people have may have been broken down. I don't think enough is done at grass roots level, and while the Golf Foundation and others do a job at encouraging youngsters in, there would seem to be a relatively untapped market of 25-35 year olds maybe at the end of other sporting careers like Sunday football or cricket. These may have had the odd game on a society day, but what is being done in a constructed manner, not just club by club, to tap this potentially lucrative market?


----------



## JezzE (Feb 27, 2014)

Very interesting thread this, and I'm not just saying that because I want to keep my job!

I think that part of the problem here is that as golf diehards and forum devotees, you and I are by and large contented golf insiders looking out, which makes it quite difficult to appreciate the perspective of golf outsiders looking in.

But as Mike says, the figures don't lie and there are issues that need to be addressed, however rosy our own particular clubs and our own particular little golfing worlds are...


----------



## IainP (Feb 27, 2014)

May be interesting to see if any noticeable difference in junior take up in the areas near those TopGolf places.
Again, probably not the best place for proper practice, but the few times I took the lads there they enjoyed it - sort of a cross between ten pin bowling and golf with the computerised scoring screens. If one was closer I could imagine going more regularly.


----------



## GB72 (Feb 27, 2014)

Out of interest, has golf ever attracted the age groups that are being discussed. I have not had a deep interest in the game until relatively recently in so I honestly don't know. Most people that I know who play have taken it up later in life or played when young and come back to the game. Playing devils advocate here but could the quest to spread the game through kids be a pipe dream. Is a game that needs time, patience and dedication and offers little in the way of instant gratification in any way going to appeal to the youth of today.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 28, 2014)

GB72 said:



			Out of interest, has golf ever attracted the age groups that are being discussed. I have not had a deep interest in the game until relatively recently in so I honestly don't know. Most people that I know who play have taken it up later in life or played when young and come back to the game. Playing devils advocate here but could the quest to spread the game through kids be a pipe dream. Is a game that needs time, patience and dedication and offers little in the way of instant gratification in any way going to appeal to the youth of today.
		
Click to expand...

Well I started playing when I was in my early teens mostly as my Granddad played a bit. I played mostly at a 9 hole municipal course but never made the next step to an 18 hole course.  I just found the game too hard/expensive/time consuming at the time. And the thought of joining a 'proper' club was way too intimidating back in the 80s when I would say the perception, even more than now, was that it was all joining fees, intimidating interviews and old people enforcing silly dress codes.  And I imagine I was not alone in this.

I just think if we are relying on more 'elderly people' to keep clubs going than it is a very risky strategy.  I would say that as it is so expensive/time consuming then you need an interest in the game, something to spark that curiosity to play and stick at it to such an extent that you are willing to pay a substantial amount of money to play the game.  Of course there's nothing to say that more elderly people can't have that, and indeed quite a few do.  But surely if you play the game when you are young and *enjoy* it, find it fun, then there will be a much bigger chance of you taking it up later in life?  And to do that you need to attract people when they are young.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 28, 2014)

Couple of Question.  Is the demographic of your average members club in Scotland any different to that in England? Has the demographic of your average members club in Scotland changed over the last 20-30yrs.

The questions are based upon the 'traditional' notion that 'everybody' (for that read all blokes) in Scotland play golf to one extent or another - because they were exposed to it and played a little or a lot when in their early teens.  Is that the case?  Was it ever the case?  Thinking back to my teens just about all the blokes I knew played golf - most weren't members of clubs but had clubs and if the opportunity arose or the notion took them - played.


----------



## patricks148 (Feb 28, 2014)

GB72 said:



			Out of interest, has golf ever attracted the age groups that are being discussed. I have not had a deep interest in the game until relatively recently in so I honestly don't know. Most people that I know who play have taken it up later in life or played when young and come back to the game. Playing devils advocate here but could the quest to spread the game through kids be a pipe dream. Is a game that needs time, patience and dedication and offers little in the way of instant gratification in any way going to appeal to the youth of today.
		
Click to expand...

I only started playing in my 40 â€˜s and growing up in Hertfordshire I didnâ€™t know anyone that played golf until my brother started playing in his teens, only due to a friend of his wanting to play as well. At that time there were far less clubs in the area than there are now. I remember him having to go and queue up to play at the municipal in St Albans at silly Oâ€™clock to maybe get to tee off two hours later, same story at the one in Luton.

Up here in Scotland all the guys Iâ€™ve played with have all been playing since they were kids, golf is very different in Scotland.

I donâ€™t see the logic in trying to change the game we all love to attract people who arenâ€™t interested in golf


----------



## vkurup (Feb 28, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			I disagree. The number of clubs closing continues to rise and there are many struggling to attract members. I don't think enough is being done to create members. Certainly I don't think a very large number of clubs, mine included to a certain degree, do enough to make the club a focal point and somewhere you'd consider using for a meal or social drink. It is all geared to the four (or five) hours of playing, a drink and maybe a quick bite and that's it until the next game.

I would love to see more people get into it. I think things like 60 60 golf at ranges have the potential to make hitting balls fun. If they enjoy that then some of the barriers and pre-conceptions people have may have been broken down. I don't think enough is done at grass roots level, and while the Golf Foundation and others do a job at encouraging youngsters in,* there would seem to be a relatively untapped market of 25-35 year olds maybe at the end of other sporting careers like Sunday football or cricket*. These may have had the odd game on a society day, but what is being done in a constructed manner, not just club by club, to tap this potentially lucrative market?
		
Click to expand...

Agree.. I fell into this category.  Did my footy, cricket et al.. now golf.  Or as I like to say - _ As you get older, your balls get smaller_...


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 28, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			I donâ€™t see the logic in trying to change the game we all love to attract people who arenâ€™t interested in golf
		
Click to expand...

But how do you know people are not interested?  I am sure there have been surveys showing there is a large potential untapped market out there.  

And all sports change and evolve, it's how most of them survive.  Surely it's better to do relatively small but constant changes to modernise, rather than leaving it too late and then having to make drastic and in some cases desperate changes that have the potential to completely alienate a lot of people.


----------



## El Bandito (Feb 28, 2014)

My experience and take is that something does need to change. The numbers do seem to strongly indicate a decline in membership, in rounds played and in new entrants. Surveys do indicate that many of the reasons posted above have an impact, slow play, perception of golfers and golf clubs etc....

So I respectfully submit that the "utter tosh and nonsense...no reason to change a thing" view is well, utter tosh and nonsense.

I believe that there are legitimate concerns around the initiative as some might see this as a profits-driven plan that could also lead to bifurcation. 

Personally - I like some of the ideas above about short courses, becoming more junior-friendly, removing pomposity (and the perception of it).

It is a great initiative, a great editorial and a great OP, whether one agrees with them or not - as it is getting the world of golf to have a good look at itself.


----------



## patricks148 (Feb 28, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			But how do you know people are not interested?  I am sure there have been surveys showing there is a large potential untapped market out there.  

And all sports change and evolve, it's how most of them survive.  Surely it's better to do relatively small but constant changes to modernise, rather than leaving it too late and then having to make drastic and in some cases desperate changes that have the potential to completely alienate a lot of people.
		
Click to expand...

if you are interested in golf, would you not just try it and go from there its what most already do isn't it.

Whats stopping people from hire a set of clubs at a muni ?????


----------



## Fish (Feb 28, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			But how do you know people are not interested?  I am sure there have been surveys showing there is a large potential untapped market out there.  

And all sports change and evolve, it's how most of them survive.  Surely it's better to do relatively small but constant changes to modernise, rather than leaving it too late and then having to make drastic and in some cases desperate changes that have the potential to completely alienate a lot of people.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, I would suspect there are many myths and exaggerated views that put people off getting into the sport which if explained and introduced correctly, could catch a few new members.  I don't think our 'Open Days' are structured enough to catch the complete newbie, there more geared around convincing members to move from elsewhere and are wholly based on the course only, not what the social side could bring to them and their family, IMO


----------



## vkurup (Feb 28, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			if you are interested in golf, would you not just try it and go from there its what most already do isn't it.

*Whats stopping people from hire a set of clubs at a muni ?????*

Click to expand...

When was the last time someone looked into this.  Had a left hander visit my course last year, the best we managed to find was 4 clubs incl the putter and they were rusty as well.   

So here is an Hackathon idea, why dont club manufacturers provide some quality clubs for hire - can easily be done from their surplus stock.  Good way for people to try out some decent clubs under real conditions. If they like it, they are likely to buy similar clubs.. win-win.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 28, 2014)

patricks148 said:



			Up here in Scotland all the guys Iâ€™ve played with have all been playing since they were kids, golf is very different in Scotland.
		
Click to expand...

This part answers my question on where golf currently is in Scotland.  My mates all played (early teens early 70s), your Scottish friends have all played since their early teens if not earlier - so let's assume they were in early teens in early 80s?  Does that situation continue in Scotland today?  Do most 10-15yr olds play the game?  Do they still feel that, even if it's not really their main sport, they are happy to play from time to time and that there is nothing negative associated with a teenager playing golf?


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 28, 2014)

vkurup said:



			When was the last time someone looked into this.  Had a left hander visit my course last year, the best we managed to find was 4 clubs incl the putter and they were rusty as well.   

So here is an Hackathon idea, why dont club manufacturers provide some quality clubs for hire - can easily be done from their surplus stock.  Good way for people to try out some decent clubs under real conditions. If they like it, they are likely to buy similar clubs.. win-win.
		
Click to expand...

On the 'hire a set' and 'just grab a few clubs and get out there' front I think that we regular golfers and the golf press have much to answer for with the obsession of many around golf gear in general.  And in the context of 'just playing' clubs, bags and balls.  In the past no-one really cared what clubs you had - if you spotted someone with a 'set' that was interesting.  But we just played with whatever we could get our hands on - picking up clubs here and there.  There was absolutely no feeling of being a 'lesser' golfer by playing old and mixed sets.  You played - that's ALL that mattered.  

And so to today - as with so much about golf we find ourselves wrapped up in snobbery and elitist attitudes towards equipment be that the balls, the clubs, the bags, trolley, DMDs and even what we wear - let's discuss the latest hyper cool Galvin Green half-zip top that costs Â£100 - let's get real - to most folk who may think about playing that is not real.  And it's an attitude that is in my view a large part of what is killing our game.

Rant over


----------



## vkurup (Feb 28, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On the 'hire a set' and 'just grab a few clubs and get out there' front I think that we regular golfers and the golf press have much to answer for with the obsession of many around golf gear in general.  And in the context of 'just playing' clubs, bags and balls.  In the past no-one really cared what clubs you had - if you spotted someone with a 'set' that was interesting.  But we just played with whatever we could get our hands on - picking up clubs here and there.  There was absolutely no feeling of being a 'lesser' golfer by playing old and mixed sets.  You played - that's ALL that mattered.  

And so to today - *as with so much about golf we find ourselves wrapped up in snobbery and elitist attitudes towards equipment* be that the balls, the clubs, the bags, trolley, DMDs and even what we wear - let's discuss the latest hyper cool Galvin Green half-zip top that costs Â£100 - let's get real - to most folk who may think about playing that is not real.  And it's an attitude that is in my view a large part of what is killing our game.

Rant over
		
Click to expand...

The first competition I ever went to was a corporate day at one of the Top 100 courses in the area.  I had no clue about traditions or how things worked - except for the 'survival guide' from the organisers. So rocked up with my set of Dunlops in a black Dunlop bag nicely perched on my 10 quid Dunlop push trolley... As I left it parked next to the better looking TMs, Pings, Titelists, I wondered what everyone was smiling about. Now I understand (and I am part of the brand snob)


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Feb 28, 2014)

vkurup said:



			The first competition I ever went to was a corporate day at one of the Top 100 courses in the area.  I had no clue about traditions or how things worked - except for the 'survival guide' from the organisers. So rocked up with my set of Dunlops in a black Dunlop bag nicely perched on my 10 quid Dunlop push trolley... As I left it parked next to the better looking TMs, Pings, Titelists, I wondered what everyone was smiling about. Now I understand (and I am part of the brand snob)
		
Click to expand...

Oh indeed - the condescension and sneering you experienced - where's the end of my nose so I can look down it to see you.

Faced with a realisation that your gear isn't good enough in some folks eyes - and you would be made to know it - you might just as easily have turned your back on the game as become the fine upstanding member of the golfing community that you have.  But do try and restrain any brand and gear snobbery you just might have - it's not that attractive to newcomers.

We all know how little it actually takes to be able to play the game - and that the gear needn't actually cost very much at all - but wander into any members club and you wouldn't think that - and so how to you stop them turning around and walking away at that point.


----------



## vkurup (Feb 28, 2014)

*Slightly controversial*

Is Golf considered as a white male sport?  if some of us men have so many challenges getting into the game.  I cant imagine the challenges faced by young girls or ladies. I know Homer & Hawkeye's club just got their first lady captain - which is brilliant news for the game. Interestingly most (or all) of the post on this thread are by men, so would be interesting to hear from the ladies on this issue?  

Also what about the non-white population.  The game is definitely growing in China and also picking up in India.  I struggle to see much ethnic participation, though I have been on some courses where I have seen a healthy mix of everyone.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 28, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			let's discuss the latest hyper cool Galvin Green half-zip top that costs Â£100 - let's get real - to most folk who may think about playing that is not real.
		
Click to expand...

You're telling me.  Â£100 for the latest Galvin Green, they are at least double that!  Get real


----------



## patricks148 (Feb 28, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			On the 'hire a set' and 'just grab a few clubs and get out there' front I think that we regular golfers and the golf press have much to answer for with the obsession of many around golf gear in general.  And in the context of 'just playing' clubs, bags and balls.  In the past no-one really cared what clubs you had - if you spotted someone with a 'set' that was interesting.  But we just played with whatever we could get our hands on - picking up clubs here and there.  There was absolutely no feeling of being a 'lesser' golfer by playing old and mixed sets.  You played - that's ALL that mattered.  

And so to today - as with so much about golf we find ourselves wrapped up in snobbery and elitist attitudes towards equipment be that the balls, the clubs, the bags, trolley, DMDs and even what we wear - let's discuss the latest hyper cool Galvin Green half-zip top that costs Â£100 - let's get real - to most folk who may think about playing that is not real.  And it's an attitude that is in my view a large part of what is killing our game.

Rant over
		
Click to expand...

You are prob right. folk are more concerned with what stuff they have rather than just playing.

I remember my brother and his mate getting their clubs from Oxfam and a right old mixed bag it was too, yellow plastic with about 10 wooden headed clubs in

Even my first few games were played with an borrowed set of 30 year old blades, I would have kept using them if they guy hadn't wanted them back. So had to go and buy a Dunlop set. The works for less than Â£100, used those untill was down to a mid teen handicap. and treated myself to a set of MX17.


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Feb 28, 2014)

vkurup said:



*Slightly controversial*

I know Homer & Hawkeye's club just got their first lady captain - which is brilliant news for the game. Interestingly most (or all) of the post on this thread are by men, so would be interesting to hear from the ladies on this issue?
		
Click to expand...

First lady captain of a Royal golf club. I know other clubs in the UK have appointed lady captains to be the figurehead for all sections (men andn women) and be captain of the club as a whole and so I think its important to differentiate and recognise that for the lady in question and I guess for the club too, this is actually quite prestigious. It will make zero difference to getting people into the sport though!


----------



## Slab (Feb 28, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			First lady captain of a *Royal golf club*. I know other clubs in the UK have appointed lady captains to be the figurehead for all sections (men andn women) and be captain of the club as a whole and so I think its important to differentiate and recognise that for the lady in question and I guess for the club too, this is actually quite prestigious. It will make zero difference to getting people into the sport though!
		
Click to expand...

Hey Homer, perhaps showing my ignorance here but what actually is the significance, benefits or distinction that a club has when its prefixed with 'Royal'   

(sorry its off topic a bit)


----------



## HomerJSimpson (Feb 28, 2014)

Slab said:



			Hey Homer, perhaps showing my ignorance here but what actually is the significance, benefits or distinction that a club has when its prefixed with 'Royal'   

(sorry its off topic a bit)
		
Click to expand...

My understanding is that Royal Clubs are granted their patronage usually via a royal connection. In our case we have Prince Andrew as our patron and our history is here http://www.royalascotgolfclub.co.uk/the-club/history.html

As for benefits, we have reciprocal arrangements with other Royal clubs around the world. Other than that, it is more of a title than anything else.


----------



## Jack_bfc (Feb 28, 2014)

Interesting thread..

firstly Im not sure people arent taking up and playing golf. I just think they are not becoming members and playing in comps.

I,m 50 this year and been playing on and off for 15 years and this year I am joining an established club for the first time.

there are so many decent courses to pay and play and with 2-1 vouchers reasonably priced so unless you want to play in comps to maintain a HC you dont need to join a club.

When I first started, I enjoyed playing twice a week on courses like Duxberry, Haigh Hall, Charnock Richard, Westhoughton, Hindley etc. 

One of the first times I played at an established club in a corperate golf day I was told to get off the phone and tuck my shirt in like I was a scholboy. I was 40 years old and stood in the **** car park.....

I was fuming. I thought, if thats what its like in a club like this, you can keep it.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Feb 28, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			First lady captain of a Royal golf club. I know other clubs in the UK have appointed lady captains to be the figurehead for all sections (men andn women) and be captain of the club as a whole and so I think its important to differentiate and recognise that for the lady in question and I guess for the club too, this is actually quite prestigious. *It will make zero difference to getting people into the sport though*!
		
Click to expand...

Taken on it's own as an isolated incident probably not.  But the more females who take up prominent positions and are even seen around golf courses can only lead to more interest from other females and will do something to counter the perception that the game is a male sport.  And you never know, some of those females might decide to give golf a try after a talk from or meeting a lady captain? Doesn't the UK have one of the lowest percentage of female to male members of golf clubs in Europe?


----------



## vkurup (Feb 28, 2014)

HomerJSimpson said:



			First lady captain of a Royal golf club. I know other clubs in the UK have appointed lady captains to be the figurehead for all sections (men andn women) and be captain of the club as a whole and so I think its important to differentiate and recognise that for the lady in question and I guess for the club too, this is actually quite prestigious. *It will make zero difference to getting people into the sport though*!
		
Click to expand...

It is all about role models... events like this provides  lady getting into the game with the knowledge/hope that she can go far in this game..  But Hacker K got there first and put it much better... 



Hacker Khan said:



			Taken on it's own as an isolated incident probably not.  But the more females who take up prominent positions and are even seen around golf courses can only lead to more interest from other females and will do something to counter the perception that the game is a male sport.  And you never know, some of those females might decide to give golf a try after a talk from or meeting a lady captain? Doesn't the UK have one of the lowest percentage of female to male members of golf clubs in Europe?
		
Click to expand...


----------



## patricks148 (Feb 28, 2014)

Hacker Khan said:



			Taken on it's own as an isolated incident probably not.  But the more females who take up prominent positions and are even seen around golf courses can only lead to more interest from other females and will do something to counter the perception that the game is a male sport.  And you never know, some of those females might decide to give golf a try after a talk from or meeting a lady captain? Doesn't the UK have one of the lowest percentage of female to male members of golf clubs in Europe?
		
Click to expand...

I don't think its just golf, i watched something on TV news the other week where the said Female participation  in sport was at an all time low.


----------



## beau d. (Mar 1, 2014)

In fear of repeating myself I honestly do not believe the game needs to change in the respect of the way it is played and the rules it is played under. I also feel extreme caution should be taken to not put off and loose the golf die hards to which we refer to on here, because after all they are the people who golf needs more than anything, they will be the committee members who dedicate so much of their time and effort to keeping Golf clubs open, they are the ones who will provide guaranteed annual income to Golf clubs in the form of subscriptions, they are the future captains etc to whom the bulk of us owe our gratitude for what they do, so we can enjoy this great game, not some casual player who we have attracted because he can play once a month with over sized clubs, who can answer his mobile in the clubhouse and walk the fairways in jeans, yes we do need these people, but they need to come to us not the game to them. 
The whole problem to me is down to Affordability, I am sure if we can get more municipal and par courses offering an entrance into golf, yes even possibly with a relaxed dress code etc to get them into the game, coupled with campaigns to get the sport more noticed in the likes of schools the upturn will come.
I speak from my own experience here, I used to race Moto Cross, when I got married due to the expense (you think golf is expensive) and the danger of the sport I had to very regrettably pack it in, I searched and pined for a sport which I could enjoy for years. Golf was never on the radar, never, until one sunny afternoon when my young daughter was asleep in her pushchair at Walsall Arboretum, I hired a few clubs and ventured out on their short municipal course just for a laugh. After two holes I was absolutely  hooked, became infatuated with this wonderful game and still am. Like I say no one was more of a doubter regarding what the game could offer than me and look where that casual chance meeting with golf has took me, I consider myself a golf die hard, proud of a game I once viewed as stupid, with it's silly rules and traditions. 
Trust in this wonderful game we play, it is more than good enough on it's own merits to entice people as it did with me to a life long participation, we do not need to change it, funk it up or anything, just get people to try it and once we have them hooked provide a wide array of courses and memberships (municipal and private members) of different price levels so it remains affordable and we will survive and flourish in my opinion.


----------



## NorfolkShaun (Mar 1, 2014)

beau d. said:



			In fear of repeating myself I honestly do not believe the game needs to change in the respect of the way it is played and the rules it is played under. I also feel extreme caution should be taken to not put off and loose the golf die hards to which we refer to on here, because after all they are the people who golf needs more than anything, they will be the committee members who dedicate so much of their time and effort to keeping Golf clubs open, they are the ones who will provide guaranteed annual income to Golf clubs in the form of subscriptions, they are the future captains etc to whom the bulk of us owe our gratitude for what they do, so we can enjoy this great game, not some casual player who we have attracted because he can play once a month with over sized clubs, who can answer his mobile in the clubhouse and walk the fairways in jeans, yes we do need these people, but they need to come to us not the game to them. 
The whole problem to me is down to Affordability, I am sure if we can get more municipal and par courses offering an entrance into golf, yes even possibly with a relaxed dress code etc to get them into the game, coupled with campaigns to get the sport more noticed in the likes of schools the upturn will come.
I speak from my own experience here, I used to race Moto Cross, when I got married due to the expense (you think golf is expensive) and the danger of the sport I had to very regrettably pack it in, I searched and pined for a sport which I could enjoy for years. Golf was never on the radar, never, until one sunny afternoon when my young daughter was asleep in her pushchair at Walsall Arboretum, I hired a few clubs and ventured out on their short municipal course just for a laugh. After two holes I was absolutely  hooked, became infatuated with this wonderful game and still am. Like I say no one was more of a doubter regarding what the game could offer than me and look where that casual chance meeting with golf has took me, I consider myself a golf die hard, proud of a game I once viewed as stupid, with it's silly rules and traditions. 
Trust in this wonderful game we play, it is more than good enough on it's own merits to entice people as it did with me to a life long participation, we do not need to change it, funk it up or anything, just get people to try it and once we have them hooked provide a wide array of courses and memberships (municipal and private members) of different price levels so it remains affordable and we will survive and flourish in my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

Have to say this would sum up my feelings quite well to be honest.

I do agree we need better introductions into golf, round Norwich we have three par three courses two council run which are good starter places.

We also have one club with a 18 hole course with a formal golf clubhouse and attached to it is a more casual clubhouse with a driving range with 60-60 golf, family adventure golf and a 9 hole course. I believe this is a great blueprint for an introduction into golf and as you get more serious you can move onto the more formal 18 hole course or stay on the less formal 9 hole course if that what you prefer.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Mar 1, 2014)

beau d. said:



			not some casual player who we have attracted because he can play once a month with over sized clubs, who can answer his mobile in the clubhouse and walk the fairways in jeans, yes we do need these people, but they need to come to us not the game to them.
		
Click to expand...

I'd say there is a middle ground between golf nut on the committee who is happy to adhere and enjoys all the rules/regulations/traditional etc etc and casual player who wants to wear jeans on the course.  I'd actually say the potential players who are not playing as they want to wear jeans on the course is quite low.  But the potential club member or casual players (of which I include myself) who are happy to wear trousers but can't for the life of them see why you can't have an untucked shirt if it makes you feel more comfortable or wear smart jeans in the clubhouse or use a mobile phone in a clubhouse (hello, it's 2014, everyone has them!) is a lot more.  

And golf needs to come to them for the game to prosper.  

But agree with your point about affordability.


----------



## SocketRocket (Mar 1, 2014)

beau d. said:



			In fear of repeating myself I honestly do not believe the game needs to change in the respect of the way it is played and the rules it is played under. I also feel extreme caution should be taken to not put off and loose the golf die hards to which we refer to on here, because after all they are the people who golf needs more than anything, they will be the committee members who dedicate so much of their time and effort to keeping Golf clubs open, they are the ones who will provide guaranteed annual income to Golf clubs in the form of subscriptions, they are the future captains etc to whom the bulk of us owe our gratitude for what they do, so we can enjoy this great game, not some casual player who we have attracted because he can play once a month with over sized clubs, who can answer his mobile in the clubhouse and walk the fairways in jeans, yes we do need these people, but they need to come to us not the game to them. 
The whole problem to me is down to Affordability, I am sure if we can get more municipal and par courses offering an entrance into golf, yes even possibly with a relaxed dress code etc to get them into the game, coupled with campaigns to get the sport more noticed in the likes of schools the upturn will come.
I speak from my own experience here, I used to race Moto Cross, when I got married due to the expense (you think golf is expensive) and the danger of the sport I had to very regrettably pack it in, I searched and pined for a sport which I could enjoy for years. Golf was never on the radar, never, until one sunny afternoon when my young daughter was asleep in her pushchair at Walsall Arboretum, I hired a few clubs and ventured out on their short municipal course just for a laugh. After two holes I was absolutely  hooked, became infatuated with this wonderful game and still am. Like I say no one was more of a doubter regarding what the game could offer than me and look where that casual chance meeting with golf has took me, I consider myself a golf die hard, proud of a game I once viewed as stupid, with it's silly rules and traditions. 
Trust in this wonderful game we play, it is more than good enough on it's own merits to entice people as it did with me to a life long participation, we do not need to change it, funk it up or anything, just get people to try it and once we have them hooked provide a wide array of courses and memberships (municipal and private members) of different price levels so it remains affordable and we will survive and flourish in my opinion.
		
Click to expand...

I like your passion and conviction in your views.


----------



## vkurup (Mar 6, 2014)

Slightly dated industry report from 2011, but makes some interesting reading.  http://www.kpmg.com/Global/en/industry/real-estate/Documents/golf-participation-in-europe.pdf..

Even as back as 2010 - 2011, there was a decline in number of golfers in UKI...

_After more than 20 years of growth, Europeâ€™s golf market experienced the first decline in golf participation,	with a net loss of 46,000 registered players in 2011. Nine countries experienced a decline in the number of registered golfers, but the most significant falls were in three large golf markets: UK & Ireland -42,700	(-3.1%), where the number of golfers has been falling since 2007, Sweden -21,000 (-4.1%) and Spain-9,700 (-2.9%).	_


----------

