# Are we ALL Racist?



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 30, 2014)

Too much serious golf stuff - so here's a light hearted Friday question.

If I have a racist thought does that make me racist?  I believe that every single one of us of a white British background have racist thoughts.  But the vast majority dismiss these thoughts immediately and most certainly don't act upon them.  

I have thoughts that if I put into action or let affect what I say or do then I would call myself racist.  I cannot control my thinking and the thoughts that pop into my head unasked for.  My white, protestant, Scottish upbringing in an environment where there was zero (literally) ethic minority forms part of who I am.  And because of that anyone not of my background is - to a little deep part of me - different and 'not like me'.  

But such thoughts do pop up.  And I am irritated and embarrassed (to myself) when they do - but I can dismiss them and most certainly not act or express them. 

But I must also recognise that if we have these thoughts then they can be worked upon (by others) and made more real than we would like and we do not dismiss them out of hand as we normally would.  And when the thoughts become more real, then that deep instinct of the fear of the different or unknown comes to the surface.  And because the root of the fear is 'real' in our thoughts, the fear is then not irrational - and becomes rational.  And when it becomes rational it can be expressed without fear.  

And as a result we find folk just like us - expressing views and thoughts that we all understand; that *we *continue to dismiss; but that others have made real - and take to the ballot box.

Just a thought.

And I'll add an example of thinking

I recently found myself driving through the Roundhay district of Leeds.  My instinct and gut feeling thought was 'blimey - not much of a white population around here' -and for a moment I felt a little uncomfortable.  But I can immediately dismiss these thoughts and feelings as thoughts that have no place or relevance to me today - and I was then just driving through Roundhay in Leeds.


----------



## c1973 (May 30, 2014)

Light hearted. Racism. Seriously? 

Give an example of your light hearted racist thoughts that you have and I'll get some popcorn.:rofl:


----------



## Rooter (May 30, 2014)

I'm not racist, I went to school with a lad that was black. 




PS. that's a joke in case anyone is wondering. I grew up in the 80's in rural West Berkshire, everyone was white!


All jokes aside, I would suppose its what you do with your thoughts is what defines you, I may think a bird is fit etc but doesnt make me a cheater etc.


----------



## MadAdey (May 30, 2014)

Not going to get involved in a thread like this, but SLH I know exactly what you are saying.


----------



## Pin-seeker (May 30, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Not going to get involved in a thread like this, but SLH I know exactly what you are saying.
		
Click to expand...

^^^^+1


----------



## Imurg (May 30, 2014)

Every single Human is/has been/will be racist or have racist thoughts.
It's natural - whether we like it or not.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 30, 2014)

Rooter said:



			I'm not racist, I went to school with a lad that was black. 




PS. that's a joke in case anyone is wondering. I grew up in the 80's in rural West Berkshire, everyone was white!


All jokes aside, I would suppose its what you do with your thoughts is what defines you, I may think a bird is fit etc but doesnt make me a cheater etc.
		
Click to expand...

Yes - that's it.  I am sure we ALL have had thoughts about cheating - in golf - and in life - that we instantly dismiss as wrong.

I guess in a way I'm trying to understand why folk express what I think are racist views - when otherwise they are just like me - and as far as I am aware - think like me.  

And if I can understand why such views get expressed then at least I have a chance of countering them.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 30, 2014)

Imurg said:



			Every single Human is/has been/will be racist or have racist thoughts.
It's natural - whether we like it or not.
		
Click to expand...

And we mostly don't like it - and so most of us don't admit it.  And by not admitting and accepting that we do I believe that it becomes harder for us to rationally counter the expression of these thoughts by others.


----------



## woody69 (May 30, 2014)

No, we are not ALL racist. I never have thoughts that judge a person based on the colour of their skin or their race. I may think they are a filthy individual, have poor manners, are rude, smell, a bad driver, a lazy worker, a scrounger etc etc but I'm not thinking that because they are a different race and I don't think that because they are like that, everyone of the same race/creed/caste is the same.


----------



## User20205 (May 30, 2014)

Party games round at yours must be good  SILH, if this is your idea of fun.

As you say, you can't control your internal monologue. It's your ability to challange and rationalise those thoughts that make you not a racist.

I may argue that in varying degrees we are all prejudiced in some way, not acting on those prejudices is key.


----------



## Foxholer (May 30, 2014)

Blue Mink had it right!

Don't fear the difference; celebrate it!


----------



## Snelly (May 30, 2014)

This is a fantastic article from this week's DT that by coincidence, is asking this question.

A very thought provoking read....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10860492/Are-we-all-racist-now.html


----------



## Maninblack4612 (May 30, 2014)

c1973 said:



			Light hearted. Racism. Seriously? 

Give an example of your light hearted racist thoughts that you have and I'll get some popcorn.:rofl:
		
Click to expand...

Here a lighthearted racist Australian joke. How can you tell when an aircraft is full of English passengers? When the engines stop the whining keeps going. I was mortally offended by this when I heard it - no I wasn't, I laughed. An Indian customer of mine once told me a quite offensive joke about Pakistanis. Would a Pakistani have been offended? I doubt it if it was told without any malice, which it was in this case. In my view it was a joke which played on national characteristics, like the one above. I think that often comments labeled as racist, or sexist for that matter, taken out of context were not that way at all. Like the recent "sluts" comment made by a prominent politician, laughed at by everyone, including the women present and no complaint made until the politically correct brigade got hold of it.

There's no doubt true racism exists & I can't stand it but I think the PC mob make too much of it.


----------



## louise_a (May 30, 2014)

woody69 said:



			No, we are not ALL racist. I never have thoughts that judge a person based on the colour of their skin or their race. I may think they are a filthy individual, have poor manners, are rude, smell, a bad driver, a lazy worker, a scrounger etc etc but I'm not thinking that because they are a different race and I don't think that because they are like that, everyone of the same race/creed/caste is the same.
		
Click to expand...

I agree



Maninblack4612 said:



			. An Indian customer of mine once told me a quite offensive joke about Pakistanis. Would a Pakistani have been offended? I doubt it if it was told without any malice, which it was in this case.
		
Click to expand...

He probably would be, Indians and Pakistanis really do not get on.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 30, 2014)

woody69 said:



			No, we are not ALL racist. I never have thoughts that judge a person based on the colour of their skin or their race. I may think they are a filthy individual, have poor manners, are rude, smell, a bad driver, a lazy worker, a scrounger etc etc but I'm not thinking that because they are a different race and I don't think that because they are like that, everyone of the same race/creed/caste is the same.
		
Click to expand...

You never have such thoughts or you never solidify them in your thinking?  I think you are perhaps very lucky if you NEVER have the thoughts.   But I say 'perhaps' because if I never have such thoughts then how can I try and understand why others do - and act upon them.


----------



## Fyldewhite (May 30, 2014)

Racism to me is just a sub-set of being judgmental.......ie basing your view of someone on external characteristics rather than actually getting to know them. We all do this IMO, some more than others, but we all do it. We don't have time to "get to know" everyone we meet or interact with so we naturally make assumptions based on past experience. As racial characteristics (skin colour, accent etc) are pretty high up the "obvious" things we first pick up on then it's something people use to base their initial judgement on. It can just as easily be age or appearance.......we are surprised when a spikey haired punk rocker turns out to be intelligent and well spoken .....we are surprised when grey haired pensioner whips out an i-pad on the bus......we are surprised when football shirted golfer turns out to be off single figures (obviously this is an extreme example but you get my drift ). All the same thing and perfectly natural human behaviour. It only becomes a problem when you let it affect your subsequent treatment of people.


----------



## Birchy (May 30, 2014)

This is about as light hearted as a triple bypass :rofl:


----------



## Pin-seeker (May 30, 2014)

Fyldewhite said:



			Racism to me is just a sub-set of being judgmental.......ie basing your view of someone on external characteristics rather than actually getting to know them. We all do this IMO, some more than others, but we all do it. We don't have time to "get to know" everyone we meet or interact with so we naturally make assumptions based on past experience. As racial characteristics (skin colour, accent etc) are pretty high up the "obvious" things we first pick up on then it's something people use to base their initial judgement on. It can just as easily be age or appearance.......we are surprised when a spikey haired punk rocker turns out to be intelligent and well spoken .....we are surprised when grey haired pensioner whips out an i-pad on the bus......we are surprised when football shirted golfer turns out to be off single figures (obviously this is an extreme example but you get my drift ). All the same thing and perfectly natural human behaviour. It only becomes a problem when you let it affect your subsequent treatment of people.
		
Click to expand...

Excellent post:thup:


----------



## MadAdey (May 30, 2014)

woody69 said:



			No, we are not ALL racist. I never have thoughts that judge a person based on the colour of their skin or their race. I may think they are a filthy individual, have poor manners, are rude, smell, a bad driver, a lazy worker, a scrounger etc etc but I'm not thinking that because they are a different race and I don't think that because they are like that, everyone of the same race/creed/caste is the same.
		
Click to expand...

it must be a long way down from that mighty pedestal that you sit on. I defy anyone to say that they have never looked at someone and judged them by their race or country of origin. It does not make you racist, it makes you human, it is not expressing those views or acting upon them that is the difference. It is only the same as other thoughts that we have like "if he does that again I'll kill him", it does not make you a murderer. 

Everyone at some point has looked at someone and thought about them in discriminative way, it does not mean you are going to wear a big white bed sheet and start burning crosses.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 30, 2014)

I loved the Scottish joke made by a Scots comic in Ireland.

I was bullied at school..........I was the only kid that did not have ginger hair!

Sadly we seem to get racism, sectarianism and prejudice muddled up quite a bit these days.


----------



## PieMan (May 30, 2014)

A very interesting and thought provoking thread.

Would I class myself as racist (and taking it a step further, homophobic) - no, as I have friends from all different ethnic backgrounds, and also friends who are gay. 

However I will openly admit that I have come across people - white, black, asian, oriental, gay - who I absolutely cannot stand as individuals and who I would never form friendships with. So based on that some people would think of me as being racist. 

But I judge people by who they are (i.e. character, nature etc) rather than the colour of their skin or who they are attracted to.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (May 30, 2014)

Children are born colour blind. It is adults that make them see colour.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2014)

Fyldewhite said:



			Racism to me is just a sub-set of being judgmental.......ie basing your view of someone on external characteristics rather than actually getting to know them. We all do this IMO, some more than others, but we all do it. We don't have time to "get to know" everyone we meet or interact with so we naturally make assumptions based on past experience. As racial characteristics (skin colour, accent etc) are pretty high up the "obvious" things we first pick up on then it's something people use to base their initial judgement on. It can just as easily be age or appearance.......we are surprised when a spikey haired punk rocker turns out to be intelligent and well spoken .....we are surprised when grey haired pensioner whips out an i-pad on the bus......we are surprised when football shirted golfer turns out to be off single figures (obviously this is an extreme example but you get my drift ). All the same thing and perfectly natural human behaviour. It only becomes a problem when you let it affect your subsequent treatment of people.
		
Click to expand...

Excellent post and sums up my feelings


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 30, 2014)

Fyldewhite said:



			Racism to me is just a sub-set of being judgmental.......ie basing your view of someone on external characteristics rather than actually getting to know them. We all do this IMO, some more than others, but we all do it. We don't have time to "get to know" everyone we meet or interact with so we naturally make assumptions based on past experience. As racial characteristics (skin colour, accent etc) are pretty high up the "obvious" things we first pick up on then it's something people use to base their initial judgement on. It can just as easily be age or appearance.......we are surprised when a spikey haired punk rocker turns out to be intelligent and well spoken .....we are surprised when grey haired pensioner whips out an i-pad on the bus......we are surprised when football shirted golfer turns out to be off single figures (obviously this is an extreme example but you get my drift ). All the same thing and perfectly natural human behaviour. It only becomes a problem when you let it affect your subsequent treatment of people.
		
Click to expand...

...or if and how you choose to express your thought.   I think that many politicians are frightened to admit that they too have these thoughts - and this leads to the contorted 'newspeak' that makes many politicians seem different from the rest of us - not damaging for the majority - but for the minority that apparent 'difference' turns into the 'they don't understand us'.

And then you get UKIP coming along speaking the thoughts but trying very hard not to form the thoughts into anything more than that - and of course for the minority these words legitimise their own thoughts - and we get votes cast as we just have.


----------



## woody69 (May 30, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			it must be a long way down from that mighty pedestal that you sit on. I defy anyone to say that they have never looked at someone and judged them by their race or country of origin. It does not make you racist, it makes you human, it is not expressing those views or acting upon them that is the difference. It is only the same as other thoughts that we have like "if he does that again I'll kill him", it does not make you a murderer. 

Everyone at some point has looked at someone and thought about them in discriminative way, it does not mean you are going to wear a big white bed sheet and start burning crosses.
		
Click to expand...

Because I don't look at an individual and make an automatic judgement on their character based on the colour of their skin, or country of origin you think I'm somehow judging myself to be better than others? You can defy all you like, but I can say 100% I do not and will not ever judge someone on appearance alone and I certainly don't apply those feelings against that one person to every other person I meet that has the same appearance and characteristics.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (May 30, 2014)

woody69 said:



			I can say 100% I do not and will not ever judge someone on appearance alone and I certainly don't apply those feelings against that one person to every other person I meet that has the same appearance and characteristics.
		
Click to expand...

I am not suggesting that you do - but my OP contention (and the topic of the DT article linked to from a previous post) is that we all have thoughts pop into our head that most of us instantly dismiss and most certainly don't voice or act upon.   But instinct, background and the basic human need to make a instant judgement about something 'different' we are presented with give rise to such thoughts.  Admitting that we have such thoughts is admitting we are human.


----------



## MadAdey (May 30, 2014)

I will put a little thing out here for anyone that says they have never had a racist thought. Have you ever said.......

Typical Germans, nicking all the sun beds........

typical  south american footballer, diving all the time.......

typical all dirty italian footballer.........

ever called a Welshman Taff, a Scotsmen Jock.

ever referred to a southerner as a shandy drinking puff

i could go on, but because you are not referring to someone's colour then it seems to be accepted. But I tell you what, if you said something like in your workplace and someone took offence to it then you would be up to your neck in it.


----------



## G1BB0 (May 30, 2014)

I would say we all have certain viewpoints or preconceived perceptions whether its about race/sexual orientation/socio-economic status and so forth. If we all felt and acted exactly the same we would be robots! The fact is we may all have thoughts now and again but we generally know how to act and behave and ignore them or keep them to ourselves.

its a bit like me being a Northerner living in the sarf with larger than normal ears  , I get ripped all the time and do the same back to the shandy swillers and if they are ginger I may throw that in aswell. Its knowing when and where opinions or banter/jokes can be used and when to keep your gob shut and opinions to yourself that defines us imho


----------



## SaintHacker (May 30, 2014)

I had to do some diversity training for work a few years ago. Race is just one thread of many that make up the whole diversity 'umbrella'. The conclusion of the course was that everybody has a predjudice of some kind, and anyone who says they don't is a liar. Its how you act on that prejudice that matters. Most balance people can happily keep theirs to themselves, the problems arise with those who can't and then act on that predjudice.


----------



## Val (May 30, 2014)

G1BB0 said:



			I would say we all have certain viewpoints or preconceived perceptions whether its about race/sexual orientation/socio-economic status and so forth. If we all felt and acted exactly the same we would be robots! The fact is we may all have thoughts now and again but we generally know how to act and behave and ignore them or keep them to ourselves.

its a bit like me being a Northerner living in the sarf with larger than normal ears  , I get ripped all the time and do the same back to the shandy swillers and if they are ginger I may throw that in aswell. Its knowing when and where opinions or banter/jokes can be used and when to keep your gob shut and opinions to yourself that defines us imho
		
Click to expand...

Good post.

Casual racism seems to be accepted except when it's questioned from the direction it got fired from.

Racism is in the eye of the receiver, like it or not. I find being called a jock by strangers offensive and deemed it racist and it was ridiculed by a few on this forum which was shocking.

Racism ain't light hearted and it's certainly no joke.


----------



## Deleted Member 1156 (May 30, 2014)

Valentino said:



			Good post.

Casual racism seems to be accepted except when it's questioned from the direction it got fired from.

Racism is in the eye of the receiver, like it or not. I find being called a jock by strangers offensive and deemed it racist and it was ridiculed by a few on this forum which was shocking.

Racism ain't light hearted and it's certainly no joke.
		
Click to expand...

I find this interesting because it clearly all comes down to the individual. I have never taken offence at someone calling me a jock, I have even looked on it as a term of endearment. But I can understand why people would take offence. 

I wonder how many 'rascist' people on here would get upset if they couldn't get a decent indian, chinese or kebab takeaway on a Friday night?


----------



## woody69 (May 30, 2014)

Valentino said:



			Good post.

Casual racism seems to be accepted except when it's questioned from the direction it got fired from.

Racism is in the eye of the receiver, like it or not. I find being called a jock by strangers offensive and deemed it racist and it was ridiculed by a few on this forum which was shocking.

Racism ain't light hearted and it's certainly no joke.
		
Click to expand...

Out of interest why do you believe being a called a "jock" is racist? Being Scottish is an nationality and the word Jock reflects regionalism, rather than racism. Of course you have every right to take offence at someone calling you a jock (particularly the manner in which it is said to you), after all some look at the word Jock as a term of affection and some have it as a badge of honour (Black Watch - Highland Regiment)


----------



## woody69 (May 30, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			I will put a little thing out here for anyone that says they have never had a racist thought. Have you ever said.......

Typical Germans, nicking all the sun beds........

typical south american footballer, diving all the time.......

typical all dirty italian footballer.........

ever called a Welshman Taff, a Scotsmen Jock.

ever referred to a southerner as a shandy drinking puff

i could go on, but because you are not referring to someone's colour then it seems to be accepted. But I tell you what, if you said something like in your workplace and someone took offence to it then you would be up to your neck in it.
		
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but I disagree. None of those statements are "racist". Racism is actions, practices or beliefs, or social or political systems that consider different races to be ranked as inherently superior or inferior to each other, based on presumed shared inheritable traits, abilities, or qualities. Just because you are playing up to the stereotype of a nationality doesn't mean you are automatically inferring you are in some way superior to them.


----------



## London mike 61 (May 30, 2014)

woody69 said:



			No, we are not ALL racist. I never have thoughts that judge a person based on the colour of their skin or their race. I may think they are a filthy individual, have poor manners, are rude, smell, a bad driver, a lazy worker, a scrounger etc etc but I'm not thinking that because they are a different race and I don't think that because they are like that, everyone of the same race/creed/caste is the same.
		
Click to expand...


I agree with this, very well put.


----------



## drawboy (May 30, 2014)

Light hearted Friday question....I'm staying well clear of this one. My thoughts are my own. I share them with people I feel comfortable with not total strangers on the internet.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 30, 2014)

woody69 said:



			Out of interest why do you believe being a called a "jock" is racist? Being Scottish is an nationality and the word Jock reflects regionalism, rather than racism. Of course you have every right to take offence at someone calling you a jock (particularly the manner in which it is said to you), after all some look at the word Jock as a term of affection and some have it as a badge of honour (Black Watch - Highland Regiment)
		
Click to expand...

Yes, my dad was proud to be called a Jock and even more proud to be called Poison Dwarfs by the German troops when they crossed the Rhine and freed the concentration camp prisoners.
He would also probably be pleased to be called a gay chap, but that was in 1944/45.

Unfortunately the name has changed over the years and many now see the American version of being called a Jock as a tough sportsman with little between his ears


----------



## Papas1982 (May 30, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes, my dad was proud to be called a Jock and even more proud to be called Poison Dwarfs by the German troops when they crossed the Rhine and freed the concentration camp prisoners.
He would also probably be pleased to be called a gay chap, but that was in 1944/45.

Unfortunately the name has changed over the years and many now see the American version of being called a Jock as a tough sportsman with little between his ears
		
Click to expand...

Just coming at it from another angle, had a typical pub convo the other day.

Is it just us, or have people noticed that if someone say's they're English, you'll generally find people correcting you as British, yet they're not so quick to do so when people say they're scottish or welsh?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 30, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			Just coming at it from another angle, had a typical pub convo the other day.

Is it just us, or have people noticed that if someone say's they're English, you'll generally find people correcting you as British, yet they're not so quick to do so when people say they're scottish or welsh?
		
Click to expand...

Very much the other way around as England still play the British national anthem for sports events involving England and it was only a few years ago that Wembly or Twickers would be a sea of Union Jacks.


----------



## MadAdey (May 30, 2014)

woody69 said:



			I'm sorry, but I disagree. None of those statements are "racist". Racism is actions, practices or beliefs, or social or political systems that consider different races to be ranked as inherently superior or inferior to each other, based on presumed shared inheritable traits, abilities, or qualities. Just because you are playing up to the stereotype of a nationality doesn't mean you are automatically inferring you are in some way superior to them.
		
Click to expand...

Before I make this I want to get one thing clear, I am not racist and neither do I agree with or support people that discriminate against people, just purely on gender, race, religion, looks nationality etc etc. My brother is with a girl from Belize, my nephew is marrying a black South African, one of my best mates in the RAF that I joined up with is Indian. 

But do you not think that making comments about someone due to their nationality is not being racist? By saying that all Germans steel all the sun beds because that is what Germans do to me is steropeotyping as you once saw one do it. I have watched films like boyz in the hood, but I do not believe that all black people are drug dealing criminals. To me it is irrelevant what you are talking about. If you pass comment on someone using a form of stereo typing, to me you are being discriminative against them.

To me you can't decide yourself what is being deemed as racist, just because you think it is ok it does not mean it is. Like has already been said by Martin, he sees being called Jock a derogatory term, where as someone else doesn't.


----------



## Papas1982 (May 30, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Very much the other way around as England still play the British national anthem for sports events involving England and it was only a few years ago that Wembly or Twickers would be a sea of Union Jacks.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah but that kinda proves my pointX the public don't choose to play that anthem, and the flags will be what are sol for given to them. I myself consider myself English, yet when I say that. They'll usually be more than one person saying that's wrong.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 30, 2014)

What cracks me up is when my wife is driving and someone is faffing about or driving badly she always says 'what is that stupid old woman' up to.
On most occasions it is a middle aged man.


----------



## MadAdey (May 30, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			What cracks me up is when my wife is driving and someone is faffing about or driving badly she always says 'what is that stupid old woman' up to.
On most occasions it is a middle aged man.
		
Click to expand...

Best post so far as it sort if backs up the point I am trying to make. Everyone to some degree discriminates, wether it something small like your wife or on a larger scale against a complete race. Do not take this post wrong please, as I'm not saying that your wife is to be thought of on the same scale as a paid up member of the KKK, but we can all be guilty of some sort of discrimination at some point. To say you are not is just a lie.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 30, 2014)

So how would you rate my wife's comment on a scale against Barton's on Question Time last night.

I would say that my wife's is more offensive.


----------



## bladeplayer (May 30, 2014)

Emotive subject this , deal a good bit with it through the second job ,have been called a racist numerous times , not because i was actually being a racist but because it suited the individual to see this as the problem , not the fact they were drunk or abusive or out of line etc , 
The abuse of the "racist card " by some/ many has made things hard for those who are genuinely being discriminated against ..


----------



## Rumpokid (May 30, 2014)

Not the best of subjects, but lots of good points.Anyone who has travelled to other continents, will know that  racism exists there too, often dependant on skin colour or tone...Even Brazil where the World Cup is .
This seems to be  a very emotive subject in the UK.However, i believe the UK is the most racially tolerant country in the world.
Furthermore, i will stick my neck out and say that i do not think anyone on this forum is racist...We just have the luxury of free speech.


----------



## guest100718 (May 30, 2014)

Seeing as you're discussing racists, has anyone mentioned Suarez yet.....?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (May 30, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Yes, my dad was proud to be called a Jock and even more proud to be called Poison Dwarfs by the German troops when they crossed the Rhine and freed the concentration camp prisoners.
He would also probably be pleased to be called a gay chap, but that was in 1944/45.

Unfortunately the name has changed over the years and many now see the American version of being called a Jock as a tough sportsman with little between his ears
		
Click to expand...

Jock is still used very regulary in the military and used in a banter way and taken exactly how it's meant - I have never ever heard it being called a racist name until this forum. If using jock to describe a Scottish person is deemed racist behaviour then there are thousands or racists in the military including me - and you can include Taff and Paddy in that also.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 30, 2014)

Some people like to be very selective with racism.   People that would have a seizure if someone made a derogatory remark towards     certain races think its OK to suggest that Americans are stupid and greedy.  I have seen it on this forum and without challenge.

This country has it's problems but we are remarkable tolerant.   Countries in Eastern Europe and the far east are incredibly raciest.


----------



## Tashyboy (May 30, 2014)

Excellent topic mr hogan and well thought out responses from a lot of people without get personal as has happened in other topics when the mods have had to get involved and starting issuing yellow cards.

just got back from a 12 day cruise and the two main topics of conversations were UKIP and immigration. I lost count of the amount of times women were upset at being labelled rascist for relating to what UKIP stand for. Some of these people are as middle class as you can get, so why immigration and it's relation to being a rascist is an issue to them I cannot imagine.

one night I was in a quiz where one of your group had to run to the stage with false teeth, woman's tattoo, etc etc. they then asked for a man to wear a woman's bra. Missis tash and me mates pal was havin none of it. However a delightful lady on the next table lent me hers. Sadly if fit like a glove and me moobs filled it. The room erupted. As did the flippin theatre filled with 500 folk on the last day when it was shown on the DVD you could buy. I had loads of folk tell me I was a good sport for doing that. My simple response, "you have to learn to laugh at yourself before you can laugh at others". And that can be a very very fine line which changes from person to to person from day to day?

when I was a kid at school, I was a flat footed, big chinned spotty kid who went to Skool with a suitcase, chisel chin, flapper, wobble arse are some of the kinder names I grew up with and the biggest bully of them all was my wife's cousin, I did not know her at the time. The name calling really really got to me, and during one bout of verbal abuse a mate of mine ( Tim ). Said he only does it to you because he knows it upsets you. Laugh at him and he will go away. After five mins of laughing he soon got pissed off and never came back. I learned loads of lessons that day in the chemistry class. 

Re racism, what I cannot understand is listening to my sons black mates calling one another the N word as a laugh but as a white Anglo Saxon he will get vilified and rightly so for saying the same word. Double standards I think it's called.It is something that is stated in an American college basketball film, but can I Eck has like remember it.

this is an excellent topic and hope it runs on for a bit and people read the posts and let them digest.

for the record me mate Tim has had 3 or 4 nervous breakdowns and it is gutting to see him in a mess at times he taught me one the most important lessons at school, it is one that has helped me enormously on the golf course, I laugh at my bad shots more than my partners.


----------



## Dellboy (May 31, 2014)

Yes.


----------



## woody69 (May 31, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			You never have such thoughts or you never solidify them in your thinking?  I think you are perhaps very lucky if you NEVER have the thoughts.   But I say 'perhaps' because if I never have such thoughts then how can I try and understand why others do - and act upon them.
		
Click to expand...

I never have such thoughts. I never make a judgement of someone based on the colour of their skin, it's that simple.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 31, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Jock is still used very regulary in the military and used in a banter way and taken exactly how it's meant - I have never ever heard it being called a racist name until this forum. If using jock to describe a Scottish person is deemed racist behaviour then there are thousands or racists in the military including me - and you can include Taff and Paddy in that also.
		
Click to expand...

Like a previous post I am uncomfortable with someone i do not know calling me Jock.
I would never dream of calling someone Taff, Mick or Paddy as I they are IMO words used by people who think they are 'not like us'.

I have a very brave friend called Taffy he is in the RAF and rescues people from helicopters.
Everyone knows him as Taffy and he is comfortable with the name.
I asked him when he was first called Taffy and he said it was when he joined up.

So to take the 'man from Liverpool's' excuse we must have many thousands of UK military men and women who are 'not like us' called Taff, Jock, Paddy and Mick


----------



## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Like a previous post I am uncomfortable with someone i do not know calling me Jock.
I would never dream of calling someone Taff, Mick or Paddy as I they are IMO words used by people who think they are 'not like us'.

I have a very brave friend called Taffy he is in the RAF and rescues people from helicopters.
Everyone knows him as Taffy and he is comfortable with the name.
I asked him when he was first called Taffy and he said it was when he joined up.

So to take the 'man from Liverpool's' excuse we must have many thousands of UK military men and women who are 'not like us' called Taff, Jock, Paddy and Mick
		
Click to expand...

Sorry im guessing you have made a point in there somewhere ?

yes there are thousands in the armed services with those nicknames. Are people racist for using the term ?

When someone calls you Jock who you dont know - do you think someone is being "racist" to you or possibly are just a bit offended because he is being too familiar with someone he doesnt know and you might find it "insulting" - do you beleive than anyone calling someone Jock etc is being a "racist"


----------



## bladeplayer (May 31, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Sorry im guessing you have made a point in there somewhere ?

yes there are thousands in the armed services with those nicknames. Are people racist for using the term ?

When someone calls you Jock who you dont know - do you think someone is being "racist" to you or possibly are just a bit offended because he is being too familiar with someone he doesnt know and you might find it "insulting" - do you beleive than anyone calling someone Jock etc is being a "racist"
		
Click to expand...

i can see where you might be put out being called that by someone you dont know , maybe not racist in the extreme but id look strangely if a stranger called me Paddy , where ive no problem with someone i know saying it .. whats the difference ? i dont realy know .. familiarity maybe..


----------



## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2014)

bladeplayer said:



			i can see where you might be put out being called that by someone you dont know , maybe not racist in the extreme *but id look strangely if a stranger called me Paddy* , where ive no problem with someone i know saying it .. whats the difference ? i dont realy know .. familiarity maybe..
		
Click to expand...

Fully understand that and can see why you would be a be put out if a stranger called you Paddy - but if they did would you think they were being racist towards you ? or just being over familiar without ensuring you dont mind being called a Paddy etc ?


----------



## bladeplayer (May 31, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Fully understand that and can see why you would be a be put out if a stranger called you Paddy - but if they did would you think they were being racist towards you ? or just being over familiar without ensuring you dont mind being called a Paddy etc ?
		
Click to expand...

yea personally id be in the over familiar camp Phil , but some would be in the Racist .. i guess the context it was said in would have big bearing on it .. Ive spent years doing doors so impretty thick skinned mate takes alot to push my buttons now ..


----------



## Hobbit (May 31, 2014)

Mmm, I'd like to think I'm not racist but there is the odd occasion when someone's response back at me suggests they are. Sadly, my first thought, note thought, is "typical xxxxx with a chip on their shoulder." Now, I could have a first thought of, "maybe its because they've suffered..." However, thankfully that doesn't change how I behave towards them other be a little wary of their prickly attitude.

I don't see race or colour, I deal in personality. As far I'm concerned I try and live by the old adage of "a stranger is a friend you haven't yet met."


----------



## bladeplayer (May 31, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			Mmm, I'd like to think I'm not racist but there is the odd occasion when someone's response back at me suggests they are. Sadly, my first thought, note thought, is "typical xxxxx with a chip on their shoulder." Now, I could have a first thought of, "maybe its because they've suffered..." However, thankfully that doesn't change how I behave towards them other be a little wary of their prickly attitude.

I don't see race or colour, I deal in personality. As far I'm concerned I try and live by the old adage of "a stranger is a friend you haven't yet met."
		
Click to expand...

Strange thing about it , if a certain race or colour does something bad their race and colour can be attributed to it .. if they do a good deed its not ..


----------



## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2014)

bladeplayer said:



			yea personally id be in the over familiar camp Phil , but some would be in the Racist .. i guess the context it was said in would have big bearing on it .. Ive spent years doing doors so impretty thick skinned mate takes alot to push my buttons now ..
		
Click to expand...

Yes obviously if people are using it towards someone in a derogatory manner then would certainly see it as insulting but again im really not sure about it being racist - if someone called me an English "bleep bleep" i would call that insulting - if someone insulting me because of the colour of my skin then that would be racist. 

Believe true racism is being derogatory towards someone based upon their colour and race - does that include the country they were born in ? Im not sure myself


----------



## c1973 (May 31, 2014)

Call me Jock all ye want, doesn't phase me at all. 

Call me an effing Jock bassa and I'll be giving your dentist some business.

See the difference there? 

Honestly, I can't understand why anyone could be offended by that word alone. Or, is it the case that they are the sort of individuals that actively look for issues to get worked up about? Some people must struggle to cross their threshold in the morning without being offended.

It's not the words that are offensive, it is the way they are used, surely.


----------



## bladeplayer (May 31, 2014)

c1973 said:



			Call me Jock all ye want, doesn't phase me at all. 

Call me an effing Jock bassa and I'll be giving your dentist some business.

See the difference there? 

Honestly, I can't understand why anyone could be offended by that word alone. Or, is it the case that they are the sort of individuals that actively look for issues to get worked up about? Some people must struggle to cross their threshold in the morning without being offended.

It's not the words that are offensive, it is the way they are used, surely.
		
Click to expand...

Exactly but thats got lost in the new politically correct world we now live in


----------



## MadAdey (May 31, 2014)

I think this thread is just highlighting where the problem with discrimination is. One person finds offensive, what the next person doesn't. 

I will still stand by the opinion that everyone at some point has had a racist/discriminative thought. Wether it is because someone is black, Indian, Scottish, French, old, female, fat, ginger, it does not matter. Does making a comment about someone like, stupid old woman, make you any better than someone who makes a reference to someone because of the colour of their skin?


----------



## bladeplayer (May 31, 2014)

I think it proves that we can actually discuss a very emotive proberly subject when we want to


----------



## Hobbit (May 31, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			Does making a comment about someone like, stupid old woman, make you any better than someone who makes a reference to someone because of the colour of their skin?
		
Click to expand...

Every 'crime' fits somewhere on a scale of naughty to down right evil. But playing Devil's Advocate with your question, do you equate a shop lifter to a Harold Shipman? I'd say the are naughty boys and evil boys.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (May 31, 2014)

Perhaps we need to go back half a lifetime to find out what 'nickname' coloured military men/women were called to fully understand where we are now.

Totally agree that it is not the words but the context that they are used.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			I think this thread is just highlighting where the problem with discrimination is. One person finds offensive, what the next person doesn't. 

I will still stand by the opinion that everyone at some point has had a racist/discriminative thought. Wether it is because someone is black, Indian, Scottish, French, old, female, fat, ginger, it does not matter. Does making a comment about someone like, stupid old woman, make you any better than someone who makes a reference to someone because of the colour of their skin?
		
Click to expand...

I think there should be a clear line between insulting , discriminating and racism. Sometimes i believe it all gets lumped into one


----------



## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Perhaps we need to go back half a lifetime to find out what 'nickname' coloured military men/women were called to fully understand where we are now.

Totally agree that it is not the words but the context that they are used.
		
Click to expand...

Coloured people were discriminated en mass because of their colour - that is racism. Whole nations and race were discriminated against

Thats why nicknames that were used in previous years are no longer accepted and rightly so.


----------



## Pin-seeker (May 31, 2014)

Is the "A Blonde Moment" thread currently in the Ask the experts section acceptable?


----------



## MadAdey (May 31, 2014)

Hobbit said:



			Every 'crime' fits somewhere on a scale of naughty to down right evil. But playing Devil's Advocate with your question, do you equate a shop lifter to a Harold Shipman? I'd say the are naughty boys and evil boys.
		
Click to expand...

the only point I was trying to make is how certain ways of discrimination are acceptable but others aren't. I am not saying that someone generalising that old women make the worst drivers are on the same level as the KKK, but it is society that decides what is acceptable and what is not. It was not that long ago that you had programs like Love Thy Neighbour on TV, you could not make programs like that now are rightly so, but as we evolve then what will become socially unacceptable next?


----------



## HomerJSimpson (May 31, 2014)

I'm not prejudice... I hate everyone.

There's been a lot in the press this week that racism is on the increase and some shock reporting saying it  is getting back to 70's levels which I disagree with. Saw some old ITV sitcoms recently and was really uncomfy with the level of racism we allowed to be broadcast in the name of entertainment.

I've been guilty of it. We had a coloured lad join the office I worked at in the 80's. Asked if he played football as I ran a works team, he said yes and I instantly christened him "Fash" after John Fashanu on the base of colour alone. Fortunately he saw the funny side of it but I wouldn't dream of doing so now. With most workplaces being muli cultural these days, particularly the hospital I work in, I think it has actually made tolerance easier. There is no mystique about Islam, Muslim, east European or African culture anymore. I'm sure it is rife in places but maybe I'm fortunate that I've not seen the so called rise for myself in my own environment


----------



## Smiffy (May 31, 2014)

I've lost count of the number of times I've watched one of these Police "reality" shows, the ones where you get the traffic cops chasing stolen cars, cars without tax, cars without insurance, etc. etc.
If I say to my wife "I bet they are foreign"...does that make me racist???
Because 99 times out of a 100 they turn out to be.


----------



## SocketRocket (May 31, 2014)

I see a number of posts have described people as 'Coloured'   This is regarded as a very racist remark, I guess the posters were not using it in that context but in habit from past times when it was seen as an acceptable phrase.   Does this make it alright though?

I see there are still rising tensions in Sheffield's Page Hall area with the settlement of Roma Gypsies.  It seems that many of those objecting to the way these people live are previous immigrants or second generation.   Is our country really enriched by such people living here such that they only appear to use our generosity and return nothing positive.  My daughter in London had her phone stolen for the third time in a year today and each time it was by Roma. Fortunately the Police had arrested them and found her phone along with many others and returned it to her.    We dont want to be racist but its blooming hard sometimes.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (May 31, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I see a number of posts have described people as 'Coloured'   This is regarded as a very racist remark, I guess the posters were not using it in that context but in habit from past times when it was seen as an acceptable phrase.   Does this make it alright though?

I see there are still rising tensions in Sheffield's Page Hall area with the settlement of Roma Gypsies.  It seems that many of those objecting to the way these people live are previous immigrants or second generation.   Is our country really enriched by such people living here such that they only appear to use our generosity and return nothing positive.  My daughter in London had her phone stolen for the third time in a year today and each time it was by Roma. Fortunately the Police had arrested them and found her phone along with many others and returned it to her.    We dont want to be racist but its blooming hard sometimes.
		
Click to expand...

The gypsies around here stole the slide and swings from the park ( for the metal ) and have gone around stealing the drainage covers for the metal 

Still stuff from kids parks !!? It's just a disgrace and nothing will be done

Leighton and Hemel etc is surrounded by them - add nothing to the community


----------



## MadAdey (May 31, 2014)

SocketRocket said:



			I see a number of posts have described people as 'Coloured'   This is regarded as a very racist remark, I guess the posters were not using it in that context but in habit from past times when it was seen as an acceptable phrase.   Does this make it alright though?
		
Click to expand...

its a good point SR. My brothers misses hates being called coloured. Her own words go along the lines of this, she is closer to black than white and I am closer to white than black, so she is black and I'm white, but we are both coloured.........


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 1, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			its a good point SR. My brothers misses hates being called coloured. Her own words go along the lines of this, she is closer to black than white and I am closer to white than black, so she is black and I'm white, but we are both coloured.........
		
Click to expand...

I like that, i don't think anybody means offence by it. People just think it's a safe phrase and are scared what to say.


----------



## stevelev (Jun 1, 2014)

woody69 said:



			I never have such thoughts. I never make a judgement of someone based on the colour of their skin, it's that simple.
		
Click to expand...

Not even a red indian.......I'd think he was a little warm


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 1, 2014)

Papas1982 said:



			I like that, i don't think anybody means offence by it. People just think it's a safe phrase and are scared what to say.
		
Click to expand...

When me and my wife went  through the adoption process we were asked if we had any black,mixed race friends. My wife working in the NHS had too many to mention, me I told the social worker I had one coloured friend who worked in the coal mine.She tripped out. I did not have a clue what she was on about and told me in so many words she was insulted to be called coloured. It was not a high priority of mine to ask my one black mate if he wanted to be called coloured or black. his name Jez just seemed to be the most important thing.

a couple of weeks later I went to a wedding and asked a guy called Bing of Zimbabwe origin if he is black or coloured or both. He said he is not bothered what he is called but it is the way in which both words can be said that matters. To say that my head was and still is spinning is an understatement. He went on to ask why the question. 

So even if the topic is called are we all rascist, sometimes we can be inadvertently construed as rascist just by saying the wrong word at the wrong time and not just by thinking rascist thoughts.


----------



## SaintHacker (Jun 1, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			coloured friend.
		
Click to expand...

Surely the word friend is the important one in that conversation?


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 1, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			When me and my wife went  through the adoption process we were asked if we had any black,mixed race friends. My wife working in the NHS had too many to mention, me I told the social worker I had one coloured friend who worked in the coal mine.She tripped out. I did not have a clue what she was on about and told me in so many words she was insulted to be called coloured. It was not a high priority of mine to ask my one black mate if he wanted to be called coloured or black. his name Jez just seemed to be the most important thing.

a couple of weeks later I went to a wedding and asked a guy called Bing of Zimbabwe origin if he is black or coloured or both. He said he is not bothered what he is called but it is the way in which both words can be said that matters. To say that my head was and still is spinning is an understatement. He went on to ask why the question. 

So even if the topic is called are we all rascist, sometimes we can be inadvertently construed as rascist just by saying the wrong word at the wrong time and not just by thinking rascist thoughts.
		
Click to expand...

I agree, back in 95 I visited family in South Africa. Unfortunately at that time racism was still rife there. I got to meet a family friend peter. He was 6 I was 12. Found out after a week he was my uncle (granddad did well lol). Anyways he was also black but granddad hadn't told the rest of family for fear of being disowned. To this day, I still chuckle more atmy reaction to being older than his skin colour.  We nicknamed him Brussel as he was a dead ringer for me and my nickname was sprout (shot up quickly).


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 1, 2014)

I did mention that it was when me and Missis tash went through the adoption process, it was not just race that was an issue but sexism, religion, homo sexuality, etc etc. the nights me and Missis tash used to go to bed with our flippin heads spinning.

we found out that some social workers are not of this planet, but some of the older ones who had not been brainwashed really were salt of the earth.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 2, 2014)

I see the England manager is insisting that the English players all sing the British national anthem at the World Cup.


----------



## dewsweeper (Jun 2, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I see the England manager is insisting that the English players all sing the British national anthem at the World Cup.
		
Click to expand...

Oh dear!!
Were off.


----------



## Tashyboy (Jun 2, 2014)

And asda are selling wearable flags that make you look like you have joined the Klu Klux Klan.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 2, 2014)

Tashyboy said:



			And asda are selling wearable flags that make you look like you have joined the Klu Klux Klan.

Click to expand...

The 'crusade' outfits are also not very politically correct.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 2, 2014)

bladeplayer said:



			Exactly but thats got lost in the new politically correct world we now live in
		
Click to expand...

...and my father used to extend that a little to _*'it's not what you say it's how you say it'*_

And by that he means - quoting the DIY company ad of a few years ago 'We've got the Jewson lot'.  He didn't like that sort of thing as we all know what word 'Jewson' is intended to be - and hence the phrase could still be offensive to any who really don't like to hear swearing.  That is almost certainly a generational thing but it has spilled over from my dad's generation to me - and I too find such wordplay unnecessary, too smart for it's own good - and yes - a little offensive.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 2, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The 'crusade' outfits are also not very politically correct.
		
Click to expand...

Shall we get rid of the St George's Cross as well as that is all over the crusades outfit ?


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 2, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Shall we get rid of the St George's Cross as well as that is all over the crusades outfit ?
		
Click to expand...

Why would you want to get rid of your national flag?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 2, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Why would you want to get rid of your national flag?
		
Click to expand...

Well if a crusade outfit is now not PC it's basically a Flag on a cloak so where do we stop ?


----------



## Rumpokid (Jun 2, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			The 'crusade' outfits are also not very politically correct.
		
Click to expand...

So skirts and blue and white face paint are ok then?..Lighten up.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 2, 2014)

Rumpokid said:



			So skirts and blue and white face paint are ok then?..Lighten up.
		
Click to expand...

Kilts don't cause any offence even if they are not traditionally Scottish.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 2, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Kilts don't cause any offence even if they are not traditionally Scottish.
		
Click to expand...

It's wots under'em wot causes offence


----------



## Rumpokid (Jun 2, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			Kilts don't cause any offence even if they are not traditionally Scottish.
		
Click to expand...

So who are the  offended..You..


----------



## davidy233 (Jun 2, 2014)

MadAdey said:



			I will put a little thing out here for anyone that says they have never had a racist thought. Have you ever said.......

Typical Germans, nicking all the sun beds........

typical  south american footballer, diving all the time.......

typical all dirty italian footballer.........

ever called a Welshman Taff, a Scotsmen Jock.

ever referred to a southerner as a shandy drinking puff

i could go on, but because you are not referring to someone's colour then it seems to be accepted. But I tell you what, if you said something like in your workplace and someone took offence to it then you would be up to your neck in it.
		
Click to expand...

I've never subscribed to any of the prejudices you quote there - so it's not everyone


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 10, 2014)

..and so the Ofsted report on the B'ham schools and alleged infiltration and 'take-over' by some wishing to promote Islamic points of  view and practice was out yesterday.  And I was wondering listening to representatives of the schools involved defending some of the practices and things that have been going on and avoid answering other questions - did we all listen and think 'fair enough - good point - no problem there' or did most of us on occasions think 'aye right!'.

And I must reflect upon why I had my suspicions about some of what I was hearing.  And in reflecting I rather reluctantly conclude in today's multi-cultural UK society that other than Religious Education as a subject, we really need to remove aspects of faith from school life.


----------



## Hacker Khan (Jun 10, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			..and so the Ofsted report on the B'ham schools and alleged infiltration and 'take-over' by some wishing to promote Islamic points of  view and practice was out yesterday.  And I was wondering listening to representatives of the schools involved defending some of the practices and things that have been going on and avoid answering other questions - did we all listen and think 'fair enough - good point - no problem there' or did most of us on occasions think 'aye right!'.

And I must reflect upon why I had my suspicions about some of what I was hearing.  And in reflecting I rather reluctantly conclude in today's multi-cultural UK society that other than Religious Education as a subject, we really need to remove aspects of faith from school life.
		
Click to expand...

I'm not sure exactly how much direct 'faith' teaching is done in schools other than in RE.  And in this case, if you have a very vocal governors who have an agenda, then saying you can't teach faith apart from in RE classes would not have done much.

And possibly this could be in a separate thread and not in one addressing if we are all racist?


----------



## USER1999 (Jun 10, 2014)

I don't think any sort of RE should be taught, full stop.


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			I don't think any sort of RE should be taught, full stop.
		
Click to expand...


Unless of course you go to a religious school

There are still a great deal of them in the country 

Religion itself isn't the problem - it's people's interpretation of it 

There is nothing wrong with teaching people different cultures and about different religions but it has to be at the right level and for the right motives


----------



## Papas1982 (Jun 10, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Unless of course you go to a religious school

There are still a great deal of them in the country 

Religion itself isn't the problem - it's people's interpretation of it 

There is nothing wrong with teaching people different cultures and about different religions but it has to be at the right level and for the right motives
		
Click to expand...

I agree with this. 

Re  classes should be lessons basically explaining about religions. The main differences and that's it. I don't think they should be able to show a bias. 

If you want that education go to church or mosque etc. 

Re the radicalisation accusation. I hope they look into it properly, but I'd be surprised if anything comes from it. Race is one issue that the government will be loathe to make any negative headline on.


----------



## USER1999 (Jun 10, 2014)

Would the time not be better spent teaching something useful?


----------



## Liverpoolphil (Jun 10, 2014)

murphthemog said:



			Would the time not be better spent teaching something useful?
		
Click to expand...

Culture and religion can be useful to some people though.

Some people will find music and art of no use or geography or history etc etc 

Got to cover all the subjects and religion is a big part of the world we live in


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 10, 2014)

Liverpoolphil said:



			Culture and religion can be useful to some people though.

Some people will find music and art of no use or geography or history etc etc 

Got to cover all the subjects and religion is a big part of the world we live in
		
Click to expand...

I think it is essential that all young people have at least a basic understanding of all faiths and religions - and the best (only?) place for that to happen is in school.  However having been brought up in Glasgow I have a particular view on the benefits or otherwise of 'faith' schools.  And given my albeit rather dated experience from back then - I have concerns when I hear of calls for, or the establishment by stealth as alleged, of faith schools today.  And I fear that separation through schooling will beget misunderstanding and suspicion - the bedrocks of racist thinking if not racism.


----------



## Doon frae Troon (Jun 10, 2014)

I have concerns about parents who are agnostics but will attend church and say that they are believers just to get their children into a better school.

Re Hogans Glasgow and of that period. One of the first questions asked in many a job interview was 'what school did you go to'.
You had a 50/50 chance of getting a job on your reply.
Thankfully those days are past now.


----------



## CMAC (Jun 10, 2014)

Doon frae Troon said:



			I have concerns about parents who are agnostics but will attend church and say that they are believers just to get their children into a better school.

Re Hogans Glasgow and of that period. One of the first questions asked in many a job interview was 'what school did you go to'.
*You had a 50/50 chance of getting a job on your reply.
Thankfully those days are past now*.
		
Click to expand...

agreed, it's nearer 70/30 now


----------



## c1973 (Jun 10, 2014)

Would this discussion not be better off in the Trojan School thread?


----------



## c1973 (Jun 10, 2014)

CMAC said:



			agreed, it's nearer 70/30 now
		
Click to expand...


Nearer 90% / 10% if you get an interview for Glasgow coonsil.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 10, 2014)

c1973 said:



			Would this discussion not be better off in the Trojan School thread?
		
Click to expand...

Sorry - I never spotted that threads and you are correct.


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 10, 2014)

c1973 said:



			Nearer 90% / 10% if you get an interview for Glasgow coonsil.
		
Click to expand...

I was going to mention building contracts let by Glasgow council and where they seemed to go - but thought that might be as it was back in the 70s and 80s - and not today.


----------



## c1973 (Jun 10, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			Sorry - I never spotted that threads and you are correct.
		
Click to expand...

It wasn't a dig btw, just an observation. 



SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			I was going to mention building contracts let by Glasgow council and where they seemed to go - but thought that might be as it was back in the 70s and 80s - and not today.
		
Click to expand...

Well, I've heard from more than one person that 'I went to the wrong school' and not to bother applying for a job there. It was said in a jocular way, but many a true word is spoken in jest.....


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2014)

c1973 said:



			It wasn't a dig btw, just an observation. 



Well, I've heard from more than one person that 'I went to the wrong school' and not to bother applying for a job there. It was said in a jocular way, but many a true word is spoken in jest..... 

Click to expand...

I am the same age as Jim Kerr and we were brought up less than a mile apart (he in Toryglen - me in Mount Florida). But we went to 'different' school so we never met.  Ah well.  Maybe no bad thing as in his school days as lead singer of Johnny and the Self-Abusers he was probably not the sort of kid my mum would have liked me hanging about with


----------



## londonlewis (Jun 11, 2014)

SwingsitlikeHogan said:



			And I'll add an example of thinking

I recently found myself driving through the Roundhay district of Leeds.  My instinct and gut feeling thought was 'blimey - not much of a white population around here' -and for a moment I felt a little uncomfortable.  But I can immediately dismiss these thoughts and feelings as thoughts that have no place or relevance to me today - and I was then just driving through Roundhay in Leeds.
		
Click to expand...


Hardly racist is it? That's merely pointing out an observations. 

Definition of Racism is;
_the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
_


----------



## SwingsitlikeHogan (Jun 11, 2014)

londonlewis said:



			Hardly racist is it? That's merely pointing out an observations. 

Definition of Racism is;
_the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
_

Click to expand...

I agree - my point was simply that my immediate feeling was one of some mild discomfort - a feeling that vanished as quickly as it arose. But I was simply asking myself why the feeling arose - whilst being grateful that it went - I cannot deny the feeling.  

I can rationalise that it arose out of my upbringing and cultural background.  And though it was there albeit very fleetingly I was wondering if we all from time to time have such unwanted and unwelcome thoughts and feelings.  

Because my thinking is that unless we understand and accept that we can have such feelings, and then learn how to dismiss them as irrational and wrong - we cannot debate with those who also have the feelings but have NOT been able to dismiss them - instead they voice them and act upon them.  From whence does come problems.


----------

