# Ladies Versus Men



## Swango1980 (Apr 27, 2021)

Just seeking confirmation, as our summer knockout matches (singles and doubles) include both male and female golfers (mainly men, with a handful of lady participants)

The men Course Rating off whites is 69.4, ladies off reds is 71.4. That is a nice round difference of 2.0. So, in singles we simply add 2 to the course handicap off ladies, and work out the difference. In doubles, we first work out 90% of the Course Handicaps, then add 2 to ladies and then work out the difference. Just out of curiosity, if the difference in course rating was not a round number, would you add the unrounded number to the unrounded 90% Course Handicap. For example, our yellow tee course rating is 66.8, which is 4.6 lower than ladies off reds. So, if a man had a course handicap off 11, a lady course handicap of 32 would the playing handicaps be:

Man = (90% x 11) = 10
Lady = (90% x 32) + *5* = 29 + 5 = 34

or

Man = (90% x 11) = 10
Lady = (90% x 32) + *4.6* = *28.8* + 4.6 = 33

I suspect the latter is correct if strictly following the formula on the WHS Manual

Also, which would you use the stroke index values for the white tees or red tees when determining which holes to give shots?

Having mixed gender knockouts is new to our club, so just want to ensure I have crossed the t's and dotted the i's when it comes to working out handicaps


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## jim8flog (Apr 27, 2021)

There is no recommendation for which S.I to use for match play so decide for yourself.

There is recommendation for team events that the ladies SI is used.


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## wjemather (Apr 27, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			Just seeking confirmation, as our summer knockout matches (singles and doubles) include both male and female golfers (mainly men, with a handful of lady participants)

The men Course Rating off whites is 69.4, ladies off reds is 71.4. That is a nice round difference of 2.0. So, in singles we simply add 2 to the course handicap off ladies, and work out the difference. In doubles, we first work out 90% of the Course Handicaps, then add 2 to ladies and then work out the difference. Just out of curiosity, if the difference in course rating was not a round number, would you add the unrounded number to the unrounded 90% Course Handicap. For example, our yellow tee course rating is 66.8, which is 4.6 lower than ladies off reds. So, if a man had a course handicap off 11, a lady course handicap of 32 would the playing handicaps be:

Man = (90% x 11) = 10
Lady = (90% x 32) + *5* = 29 + 5 = 34

or

Man = (90% x 11) = 10
Lady = (90% x 32) + *4.6* = *28.8* + 4.6 = 33

I suspect the latter is correct if strictly following the formula on the WHS Manual

Also, which would you use the stroke index values for the white tees or red tees when determining which holes to give shots?

Having mixed gender knockouts is new to our club, so just want to ensure I have crossed the t's and dotted the i's when it comes to working out handicaps
		
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The Course Handicap is always rounded prior to further calculations (except Scotland). The 90% result is then unrounded before adding any additional (unrounded) multiple tee allowance. CONGU have provided a handy calculator to do all the work for you: https://www.congu.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/WHSDocs/Mixed-Tee-Calculator-WHS-v1.9.xlsx


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## wjemather (Apr 27, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			There is no recommendation for which S.I to use for match play so decide for yourself.

There is recommendation for team events that the ladies SI is used.
		
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The CONGU guidance says this: "In 4BBB format players score using the card and SI appropriate for the tee they are playing from." (p. 42); in foursomes/greensomes, "the committee must specify in the Terms of Competition which single set of tees will determine the Pars and SI that are to be used." It doesn't seem clear if the guidance is meant to apply to both stroke and match play.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 27, 2021)

wjemather said:



			The CONGU guidance says this: "In 4BBB format players score using the card and SI appropriate for the tee they are playing from." (p. 42); in foursomes/greensomes, "the committee must specify in the Terms of Competition which single set of tees will determine the Pars and SI that are to be used." It does seem clear if the guidance is meant to apply to both stroke and match play.
		
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So, it is up to the club to decide which SI should be used (and there is no right and wrong answer), rather than just letting individual players in matches decide (could be some big disagreements)?

Also, mention of Pars is interesting, not sure if that is a red herring? The Par of the ladies course is one more then men, as they have a Par 5 which is a Par 4 for men. I am assuming that if the lady had a 5 (with a shot) and a man had a 4, the hole would be halved, rather than the lady win the hole because she had a nett birdie 4 to the mans nett par 4


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## jim8flog (Apr 27, 2021)

wjemather said:



			The CONGU guidance says this: "In 4BBB format players score using the card and SI appropriate for the tee they are playing from." (p. 42); in foursomes/greensomes, "the committee must specify in the Terms of Competition which single set of tees will determine the Pars and SI that are to be used." It does seem clear if the guidance is meant to apply to both stroke and match play.
		
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There is a  paragraph in the guidance for mixed match play and which S.I. (the highlighting is my own it was being used for a meeting)


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## jim8flog (Apr 27, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			So, it is up to the club to decide which SI should be used (and there is no right and wrong answer), rather than just letting individual players in matches decide (could be some big disagreements)?

Also, mention of Pars is interesting, not sure if that is a red herring? The Par of the ladies course is one more then men, as they have a Par 5 which is a Par 4 for men. I am assuming that if the lady had a 5 (with a shot) and a man had a 4, the hole would be halved, rather than the lady win the hole because she had a nett birdie 4 to the mans nett par 4
		
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 Par in match play *is* a red herring. The team which plays the fewest shots on a hole, allowing for strokes given, is the one that wins the hole.


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## wjemather (Apr 27, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			There is a  paragraph in the guidance for mixed match play and which S.I. (the highlighting is my own it was being used for a meeting)

View attachment 36371

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I've not seen that and it doesn't appear to be in this document. Where was this taken from please?


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## jim8flog (Apr 27, 2021)

wjemather said:



			I've not seen that and it doesn't appear to be in this document. Where was this taken from please?
		
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 It used to be on the CONGU website but I could not see it today

This is my printed copy which I downloaded several years ago.


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## Swango1980 (Apr 27, 2021)

So, it seems that whichever SIs are used, there is no right and wrong answer. My instinct was to just use the white SI at all times. However, perhaps a more logical approach would be to use the tee SI related to the player requiring the shots. So, if the lady gets shots, use the Red SI, if the man gets shots use the white SI. That seems to make sense? Especially at my club, as we have a few white tees that are absolutely miles back with 220 yard carry over a dyke (both 440 yard+ par 4s). The white SI is obviously low on those, but the lady tees are about 90-100 yards further forward. So, it would seem to be harsh to also give a lady a shot on that hole when they already have a huge advantage. However, on their low SI holes, there is not a lot of difference between whites and reds, long holes and ladies would need shot more there.


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## upsidedown (Apr 27, 2021)

Calculator here 
https://www.congu.co.uk/whs/


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## wjemather (Apr 27, 2021)

jim8flog said:



			It used to be on the CONGU website but I could not see it today

This is my printed copy which I downloaded several years ago.
		
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Pre-WHS?


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## wjemather (Apr 27, 2021)

Swango1980 said:



			So, it seems that whichever SIs are used, there is no right and wrong answer. My instinct was to just use the white SI at all times. However, perhaps a more logical approach would be to use the tee SI related to the player requiring the shots. So, if the lady gets shots, use the Red SI, if the man gets shots use the white SI. That seems to make sense? Especially at my club, as we have a few white tees that are absolutely miles back with 220 yard carry over a dyke (both 440 yard+ par 4s). The white SI is obviously low on those, but the lady tees are about 90-100 yards further forward. So, it would seem to be harsh to also give a lady a shot on that hole when they already have a huge advantage. However, on their low SI holes, there is not a lot of difference between whites and reds, long holes and ladies would need shot more there.
		
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That would be my thinking.


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## jim8flog (Apr 27, 2021)

wjemather said:



			Pre-WHS?
		
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 Yes I just found the download, 2016. It uses all the same principles as the current advice, all that changes with the WHS is the calculations.


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