Yellow Penalty Areas

[oltimer]

At Honda Classic - VJ took a drop (with Ref in attendance) using the last point of entry measured one club length sideways which seems to be as rules but this in fact resulted in him have a clear route to the flag taking the Pen area out of play, thought prev rules always required a Water Haz to be played over - do the new rules not require this for yellow areas ?

 

[rulie]

Here's my opinion -Rule 17.1d(2) describes back-on-the-line relief as "the player may drop the original ball or another ball in a relief area that is based on a reference point going straight back from the hole through the estimated point where the original ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area". VJ's ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area on the green side of the penalty area, rolling back in. A straight line from the hole back through the estimated point was on the green side of the penalty area. The Rule goes on to say, in part, that the reference point is "a point on the course chosen by the player that is on the reference line and is farther from the hole than the estimated point". The size of the relief area is within one clublength of the reference point.
VJ established the estimated point, the reference point and the one clublength (not in the same penalty area) and correctly dropped within in the permitted relief area. The referee obviously knows the Rules and agreed that the correct procedure had been followed.
Also, the Rule does not say that the reference point must be "behind" the penalty area; it can be in the penalty area (on the line marking the edge of the penalty area).

 

[CliveW]

Was it a yellow area? If so where did the ball enter the penalty area?

 

[rulie]

Was it a yellow area? If so where did the ball enter the penalty area?

Back-on-the-line relief is available for both red and yellow penalty areas, so it's somewhat irrelevant. But it was yellow in this case.

 

[oltimer]

It was as Rulie said the ball cleared the Haz and rolled back in, with only the view the tv gave it looked as if the only point that gave a direct line to the flag was further back and it `appeared` as if the drop point where the measure of 1 club was taken from was from the entry point not between the drop/flag, I know that there is a 1 club length not nearer from the point of relief taken which can be sideways but it appeared as if they had just taken this sideways from the point of entry. whatever - the drop removed the haz out of the line of play, if this is correct we have a pond front left of a green where most ball in it enter from the side and drops if applied as above take it out of play for the dropped balls, we may just as well change the yellow stakes to red.

 

[drdel]

I thought the 'red' and 'yellow' distinction had now been abandoned ?

 

[duncan mackie]

I thought the 'red' and 'yellow' distinction had now been abandoned ?

This is exactly why it is recommended to remove the distinction, but it still exists within the rules. We only have red now, but some courses have retained their yellow - many hard cards (visiting tours or authorities) override and everything is red.
There's quite a difference between 1 and 2 CL when the player has to take his stance on the water side of the drop - seems fairer to make it the same for all and just have red.

 

[cliveb]

Also, the Rule does not say that the reference point must be "behind" the penalty area; it can be in the penalty area (on the line marking the edge of the penalty area).

Can you absolutely confirm that this is the case - I can choose a reference point within the PA?
Which means my reference point could be 1mm behind the point of entry?
This means that we can nearly always drop laterally 1CL from the point of entry, even from a yellow PA.
Was that really the intention when the rule changes were brought in?

 

[oltimer]

I think this is a change that many (incl me) have not noticed - the old rules state " drop a ball behind the w/z keeping the point of entry directly between the hole and the "spot" at which the ball is dropped", the new rules state that the above applies to the point of relief from which there is one club length relief in any direction not nearer to drop in.

 

[duncan mackie]

Can you absolutely confirm that this is the case - I can choose a reference point within the PA?
Which means my reference point could be 1mm behind the point of entry?
This means that we can nearly always drop laterally 1CL from the point of entry, even from a yellow PA.
Was that really the intention when the rule changes were brought in?

If you look at rule 17 in detail you will get the confirmation you seek (which is better than any forum post - inc mine!).
The key is that the reference point and reference area don't have the same rules. The reference point for yellow is on a line back from the hole through the point on the margin that the ball last crossed the edge of the penalty area, not nearer the hole than that. It follows, that the reference point may be in the penalty area. However the reference area used for a valid drop must be outside the penalty area. It follows that the reference point can never be equal to, or greater than, one club length inside the penalty area. How intentional this was in this context probably lies in the addition of 1cl either side of the reference line in the first place. Whilst that was added to provide latitude rather than scope everything else follows from that.

The red lateral relief option uses a different definition of reference point.

 

[cliveb]

If you look at rule 17 in detail ...
The reference point for yellow ...
It follows, that the reference point may be in the penalty area.

I only have the players edition of the current rules, so maybe I don't have the necessary detailed info.
I agree that the wording of the rule doesn't say that the reference point has to be outside the penalty area.
Diagram #1 for 17.1d shows what happens in one typical scenario, and in this case you clearly have to drop back behind the PA.
Surely this form of relief is what the rule makers had in mind.

But consider the attached image. A ball is played from point A and crosses the margin of the yellow PA at point B.
Under the old rules, relief would have to be taken along the line towards point C.
But under the new rules, it seems that relief can be taken at point D (within 1CL of point B).

It strikes me that the rule makers surely never intended this to be an option.
Have they created a loophole by failing to state that the reference point must be outside the PA?

 

[duncan mackie]

I only have the players edition of the current rules, so maybe I don't have the necessary detailed info.
I agree that the wording of the rule doesn't say that the reference point has to be outside the penalty area.
Diagram #1 for 17.1d shows what happens in one typical scenario, and in this case you clearly have to drop back behind the PA.
Surely this form of relief is what the rule makers had in mind.

But consider the attached image. A ball is played from point A and crosses the margin of the yellow PA at point B.
Under the old rules, relief would have to be taken along the line towards point C.
But under the new rules, it seems that relief can be taken at point D (within 1CL of point B).
View attachment 26727
It strikes me that the rule makers surely never intended this to be an option.
Have they created a loophole by failing to state that the reference point must be outside the PA?

Any loophole is a function of the 1cl not the wording of, or lack of it, relating to the reference point.

The wider recommendation to move all to red is another confirmation.

As such I'm extremely comfortable that it's not an unintended consequence.

You might like to consider that in the example you have shown the player has cleared the relevant part of the water hazard (for his ball to have last entered at point B) so why should he be required to do it again? In the vast majority of situations the player will not be able to find D, or find it favourable (I'm left handed and if the bank was sloping etc would probably chose to head off towards C), so nothing has changed there.

Anyhow, all ours are red now (partly because of exactly this) 🤗

 

[backwoodsman]

I think I may be missing something here, but am still a bit confused.

In the diagram posted by cliveb, the "estimated point" where ball last crossed the margin is at point B. Fair enough. The reference point has to be on the line "hole-to-C". It can be in the penalty area and can be just (say) millimetres behind the "estimated point". For arguments sake, we may as well regard it as point B also. So, the relief area is 1CL in size from that point. So, by default, some of the relief area is within the penalty area (ie all on one side of the reference line, and most of the 1CL behind the reference point). And I thought that 17.1d says the relief area can't be within the same penalty area as that from which relief is being taken?

Or .... is it simply that one disregards as "relief area" any bits of potential area where you are not proposing to drop the ball. (If you see what I mean?)

 

[duncan mackie]

I think I may be missing something here, but am still a bit confused.

In the diagram posted by cliveb, the "estimated point" where ball last crossed the margin is at point B. Fair enough. The reference point has to be on the line "hole-to-C". It can be in the penalty area and can be just (say) millimetres behind the "estimated point". For arguments sake, we may as well regard it as point B also. So, the relief area is 1CL in size from that point. So, by default, some of the relief area is within the penalty area (ie all on one side of the reference line, and most of the 1CL behind the reference point). And I thought that 17.1d says the relief area can't be within the same penalty area as that from which relief is being taken?

Or .... is it simply that one disregards as "relief area" any bits of potential area where you are not proposing to drop the ball. (If you see what I mean?)

Yes, it's your Or....if you think about it there will nearly always be part of the relief area within the penalty area for a lateral drop (red) - it's normal. You can only drop in, and come to rest in, the valid bits.
Goes deeper as well because the relief area may lie in one or more different areas of the course that are valid, but the ball must come to rest in the same type as it first touches when dropped e.g. if you drop in the general area but the ball rolls into a bunker (still within the relief area) it's not a valid drop. You can drop into a bunker and if it stays there that's fine - if you really want to!

 

[backwoodsman]

Yes, it's your Or....if you think about it there will nearly always be part of the relief area within the penalty area for a lateral drop (red) - it's normal. You can only drop in, and come to rest in, the valid bits.
Goes deeper as well because the relief area may lie in one or more different areas of the course that are valid, but the ball must come to rest in the same type as it first touches when dropped e.g. if you drop in the general area but the ball rolls into a bunker (still within the relief area) it's not a valid drop. You can drop into a bunker and if it stays there that's fine - if you really want to!

Ok - ta. I think I was over complicating things in my head.

Effectively, I just need to regard the 1CL as a "permitted maximum" size rather than a fixed dimension. I was tending to interpret the new wording as the latter - when there's no reason to do so.

 

[jim8flog]

Reference point inside the penalty area may be irrelevant. If the point that is chosen is within two clubs lengths of where the ball lies not closer (as in Vijays case) it could be taken as taking an unplayable lie.

 

[duncan mackie]

Reference point inside the penalty area may be irrelevant. If the point that is chosen is within two clubs lengths of where the ball lies not closer (as in Vijays case) it could be taken as taking an unplayable lie.

I don't think so....consistently with the old rules you can't invoke 19.1 when the ball lies in a penalty area.

 

[cliveb]

Reference point inside the penalty area may be irrelevant. If the point that is chosen is within two clubs lengths of where the ball lies not closer (as in Vijays case) it could be taken as taking an unplayable lie.

But surely you can't take an unplayable lie if your ball is in a penalty area?

 

[jim8flog]

I don't think so....consistently with the old rules you can't invoke 19.1 when the ball lies in a penalty area.

Thanks

I am still learning the little foibles of the new rules.

 

[Colin L]

Reference point inside the penalty area may be irrelevant. If the point that is chosen is within two clubs lengths of where the ball lies not closer (as in Vijays case) it could be taken as taking an unplayable lie.

I'm not following this. You can't take unplayable relief if your ball is in a penalty area. There are only 2 options - play the ball as it lies or take penalty relief 17.1d. How could you take the player's actions to be taking unplayable relief?

Edit Already said. That's not the first time I've opened this forum, replied to the last post showing and then after posting found several previous replies that weren't showing before.