wrong drop

[patricks148]

I had an instance in the county champs at the weekend.

On the 8th at Nairn Dunbar there is a shelter left of the green next to the 12 tee.

My ball bounced left and ended up in the shelter, My playing partners thought it was a part of the course as the score card says Greens keepers hut and paths as Integral parts of the course, I queried it as it was a shelter and no at green keepers hut, so too a penalty drop as unplayable and said we would check with the marker on comp of the round.

He confirmed this so signed for the score. At my club I asked a mate who is a former Capt at Dunbar and he said it was a free drop, plus another rules guy at our confirmed that.

I missed buffer by one shot on that round, could this be rectified after the round is already completed?


not that bothered, its only 0.1 after all but would be interested to know for the future!

 

[palindromicbob]

I had an instance in the county champs at the weekend.

On the 8th at Nairn Dunbar there is a shelter left of the green next to the 12 tee.

My ball bounced left and ended up in the shelter, My playing partners thought it was a part of the course as the score card says Greens keepers hut and paths as Integral parts of the course, I queried it as it was a shelter and no at green keepers hut, so too a penalty drop as unplayable and said we would check with the marker on comp of the round.

He confirmed this so signed for the score. At my club I asked a mate who is a former Capt at Dunbar and he said it was a free drop, plus another rules guy at our confirmed that.

I missed buffer by one shot on that round, could this be rectified after the round is already completed?


not that bothered, its only 0.1 after all but would be interested to know for the future!

If it is not specified in the local rule as being integral then it is by definition an obstruction for which free relief is entitled under the rules.

Nicolas Colsaerts had an entertaining one when he hit into a toilet. He was deemed to have entered a hazard and the point it crossed was in the loo. Had to make the drop in the loo and then got free relief from that spot as it was an immovable obstruction. Just take care in determining nearest point of relief in such a situation because it may in fact be on a path if the hut has one near it, it does not guarantee you a line for a shot either.


http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more-sports/golfer-told-penalty-drop-bathroom-article-1.1348404

http://www.golfchannel.com/media/near-hole-one-nicolas-colsaerts/

An "obstruction" is anything artificial, including the artificial surfaces and sides of roads and paths and manufactured ice, except:
a. Objects defining out of bounds, such as walls, fences, stakes and railings;
b. Any part of an immovable artificial object that is out of bounds; and
c. Any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course.
An obstruction is a movable obstruction if it may be moved without unreasonable effort, without unduly delaying play and without causing damage. Otherwise it is an immovable obstruction.
Note: The Committee may make a Local Rule declaring a movable obstruction to be an immovable obstruction.

 

[rulefan]

I can't see what the Committee can do now but why didn't you play two balls under rule 3-3?

 

[pbrown7582]

I can't see what the Committee can do now but why didn't you play two balls under rule 3-3?

Would it of made any difference as the rules check after the round said it was still a penalty drop.

Can't see anyway a score can be reduced once it's signed for?

 

[Colin L]

Would it of made any difference as the rules check after the round said it was still a penalty drop.

Can't see anyway a score can be reduced once it's signed for?

The penalty drop has to stand because that is what the player did. You can't change his score on the basis that if he had only known, he would have chosen to take relief from the obstruction. For example, the likelihood of his playing from the same place under either Rule 28 or Rule 24 is remote.

He would have to have played two balls under Rule 3-3 to allow a choice to be made after his round and before he submitted his card. Which is why Rulefan asked the question.

 

[patricks148]

i took relief ( pen) and had a 5, sev others have said it should have been a free drop from the shelters.

Of course its too late now the comp has closed, but could i have raised it after the round as the comp was still open untill later that day?

 

[Colin L]

i took relief ( pen) and had a 5, sev others have said it should have been a free drop from the shelters.

Of course its too late now the comp has closed, but could i have raised it after the round as the comp was still open untill later that day?

Even though the comp is still open, you are stuck with what you did - as I said above. You deemed your ball unplayable and proceeded on that basis and so that is what your score must reflect. It just isn't possible to change your score on the basis of what you might have done if you had proceeded differently at the time - even though the alternative would have been legitimate. How could anyone tell how many strokes you would have taken if you had taken free relief from the obstruction and played, most likely from a different spot? Scoring has to be on what has actually happened, not on what might have been if only ........

The bottom line is that it is the player's responsibility to know the rules - and that includes the local rules. And the best one to know after that experience is 3-3.

 

[patricks148]

Even though the comp is still open, you are stuck with what you did - as I said above. You deemed your ball unplayable and proceeded on that basis and so that is what your score must reflect. It just isn't possible to change your score on the basis of what you might have done if you had proceeded differently at the time - even though the alternative would have been legitimate. How could anyone tell how many strokes you would have taken if you had taken free relief from the obstruction and played, most likely from a different spot? Scoring has to be on what has actually happened, not on what might have been if only ........

The bottom line is that it is the player's responsibility to know the rules - and that includes the local rules. And the best one to know after that experience is 3-3.

Even though i was given the wrong info by the scorer?

 

[woody69]

Even though i was given the wrong info by the scorer?

Yes. Next time play a 2nd ball under 3-3 and find out the correct ruling from the committee before submitting your card.

 

[patricks148]

Yes. Next time play a 2nd ball under 3-3 and find out the correct ruling from the committee before submitting your card.

I asked the handicap sec who you would think would know the correct answer. i wouldn't have needed to play a 2nd ball as i took a drop, under penalty, it would have been the same drop under but with a free one.

 

[Colin L]

I asked the handicap sec who you would think would know the correct answer. i wouldn't have needed to play a 2nd ball as i took a drop, under penalty, it would have been the same drop under but with a free one.

It just doesn't work that way. You can only proceed under one Rule with one ball and you chose Rule 28 - Ball unplayable. You just cannot be given a score for a ball you didn't play.

The drop if you had taken free relief from the obstruction would not have been the same as the one you took for an unplayable ball. It is highly unlikely that you would have been dropping at the same spot - possible but improbable. Not that it matters, you still couldn't escape the penalty for what you chose to do.

 

[patricks148]

It just doesn't work that way. You can only proceed under one Rule with one ball and you chose Rule 28 - Ball unplayable. You just cannot be given a score for a ball you didn't play.

The drop if you had taken free relief from the obstruction would not have been the same as the one you took for an unplayable ball. It is highly unlikely that you would have been dropping at the same spot - possible but improbable. Not that it matters, you still couldn't escape the penalty for what you chose to do.

the drop I took would have been in the same place, NPR one club, not nearer the hole, how would it have been diff

Im not trying to escape anything, just wanted to know, if you found out you had been given the wrong info before the comp had closed fully you could change the score?

 

[rulefan]

the drop I took would have been in the same place, NPR one club, not nearer the hole, how would it have been diff

The result may have been fortuitously the same. But the procedural requirements are quite different.

 

[Fyldewhite]

If you took a penalty drop for an unplayable then NPR is not relevant and as already stated the 2 clublengths you are allowed from where the ball was will most likely be a different place than taking a "free relief" drop at NPR + 1 clublength. Which is why the two ball option is the only way to proceed if you want t decision afterwards to affect things.

 

[atticusfinch]

The dropping spot under rule 28 is anywhere within 2 CL of the ball's position. Relief under rule 24 is only within one CL of the NPR. The NPR can be many yards away from the ball's position or right next to it. The dropping spot is by definition different.

 

[Colin L]

the drop I took would have been in the same place, NPR one club, not nearer the hole, how would it have been diff

As explained above, there is a significant difference between what you do under the unplayable ball rule and the obstruction rule. If you deem your ball unplayable you can drop within 2 club lengths not nearer the hole of where the ball lies; drop anywhere back along a line from the hole through where your ball lies; or play from where you played your previous shot.

My answers to you were based on the fact that you proceeded under the unplayable ball rule ( there is nothing else a "penalty drop as unplayable" could mean ). So did you choose one of these options, or did you, as I now suspect, drop within a club length of the "nearest point of relief"?

If you made the mistake of using the nearest point of relief [NPR] process, you complicated matters even more and were looking at a 2 stroke penalty and maybe even a DQ I'll explain that if you confirm you did indeed use the NPR.

 

[woody69]

the drop I took would have been in the same place, NPR one club, not nearer the hole, how would it have been diff

As others have said, for relief from an immovable obstruction it is within one club length of NPR, not nearer the hole. For unplayable it is either play from as close to last spot played, i.e. stroke and distance, drop ball behind the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot as far back as you like, or drop within 2 club lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole. As you can hopefully see the points of relief are quite different, which means they are not likely to be from the same spot.

The fact you have indicated you actually dropped and played from the wrong place suggests a penalty should be applied against you of 2 strokes for ignoring 24-2 and another 2 strokes for breaking rule 20-7, but not sure we want to go down that rabbit hole...

 

[patricks148]

As explained above, there is a significant difference between what you do under the unplayable ball rule and the obstruction rule. If you deem your ball unplayable you can drop within 2 club lengths not nearer the hole of where the ball lies; drop anywhere back along a line from the hole through where your ball lies; or play from where you played your previous shot.

My answers to you were based on the understanding that you proceeded under the unplayable ball rule ( there is nothing else a "penalty drop" could mean in this context). So did you choose one of these options, or did you, as I now suspect, drop within a club length of the "nearest point of relief"?

If you made the mistake of using the nearest point of relief [NPR] process, you complicated matters even more and were looking at a 2 stroke penalty. I'll explain that if you confirm you did indeed use the NPR.

You are getting caught up in the drop, Im more interested in knowing if in theory the score could have been changed once the correct ruling on relief was gained?

I've just asked my mate, and he says i took two club drop no nearer the hole. If i had taken 1 club from the NPR i would have had a much better line to the green

 

[woody69]

You are getting caught up in the drop, Im more interested in knowing if in theory the score could have been changed once the correct ruling on relief was gained?

I've just asked my mate, and he says i took two club drop no nearer the hole. If i had taken 1 club from the NPR i would have had a much better line to the green

Only if you had played with 2 balls from the correct spot.

Can't believe your mate knows better than you where you actually dropped though!

 

[pbrown7582]

You are getting caught up in the drop, Im more interested in knowing if in theory the score could have been changed once the correct ruling on relief was gained?

I've just asked my mate, and he says i took two club drop no nearer the hole. If i had taken 1 club from the NPR i would have had a much better line to the green

not the way you proceeded, you would of had to have played 2 balls for that option to have been available as outlined above.