Would you consider this cheating????

[Earl]

Next you will be asking if gimme's are okay or 'just kick it out the rough' you don't normally hit it there. Play the 3 rounds under proper rules and your handicap will be what it is. I was going to play in some open comps this year now maybe i won't judging by a lot of the responses.

 

[Smiffy]

Next you will be asking if gimme's are okay or 'just kick it out the rough'

Yes mate.
Of course I will

 

[MVP]

i'd do it ..so shoot me!!! some people got lighten up. we are not in the masters. most people got a dodgy handicap any way

 

[golf_bug]

Its a big no from me.

If he is going to struggle to turn up to play 3 rounds with partners then how is he going to find time to make use of his hcp when he gets it?

He may be the most trustworthy guy in the world but the rules is the rules.

 

[Herbie]

Next you will be asking if gimme's are okay or 'just kick it out the rough' you don't normally hit it there. Play the 3 rounds under proper rules and your handicap will be what it is. I was going to play in some open comps this year now maybe i won't judging by a lot of the responses.

Eh?

 

[heronsghyll]

i'd do it ..so shoot me!!! some people got lighten up. we are not in the masters. most people got a dodgy handicap any way

I agree......Let's get it in perspective. Not cheating, no way.

 

[Herbie]

Its a big no from me.

If he is going to struggle to turn up to play 3 rounds with partners then how is he going to find time to make use of his hcp when he gets it?

He may be the most trustworthy guy in the world but the rules is the rules.

Where is it written into the local rules of most golf clubs?
I think you will find with a lot of clubs its just a word of mouth acceptance of the done thing or a guideline rather than a rule.

Otherwise everyone and I do mean everyone would have to follow this process when joining a club even if they had a h/c to begin with. So what would happen if joe bloggs who played off 3 at a previous club, had a bad three rounds joining a new club and carded 80 per card, what would the rigid followers of the three card system do then? Call him a cheat no doubt, or give him a 3 h/c regardless, making the process in that cases rediculous.

There is such a thing as credibility, like that of a pro, or someone with a h/c at a previous club that can be easily varified by picking up a phone, there is also the credibility of the word of a member, which in my view is likely to carry more weight than 3 cards may do.

Is the pro who was responsible for dealing with new members h/caps a cheat,when he sees three cards correctly obtained and signed indicating a 12 h/c standard, but chooses to give said player an 8 h/c, knowing that this player already had 8 at previous club, or does doing this invalidate the 3 card process? If the 3 cards are of little importance in this sense, why are they so much more important when someone honest signs after the fact for someone they know well?

As far as being able to turn up goes, this is not always the problem, the problem is finding someone to go round with to mark your card, and on a quiet day this is not always easy. Sometimes at a new club it can be hard to get any assistance even if they are busy with members, it all depends on the day, the time and what others are doing, or have to do .

 

[JustOne]

An interesting thread for sure.

Smiffy interestingly enough I have a computer
What handicap does he want? ...I'll print one out

To me the question is "What does this say about your friends character if he is clearly happy to bend this rule ?".

Blimey, the thread really DID get to the moral highway.

It's one thing to judge someone about golf but turn your back and they'll be sleeping with your wife, girlfriend and daughter!

 

[Herbie]

An interesting thread for sure.

Smiffy interestingly enough I have a computer
What handicap does he want? ...I'll print one out

To me the question is "What does this say about your friends character if he is clearly happy to bend this rule ?".

Blimey, the thread really DID get to the moral highway.

It's one thing to judge someone about golf but turn your back and they'll be sleeping with your wife, girlfriend and daughter!

That just cracked me up!

 

[RGDave]

Not for me. I'd only ever sign a card I'd witnessed.
If it was my mate, I'd move whatever necessary to play with him and record his score "above board", even if we had to play at 5.00am or something.
I'd play twice with him to mark his card(s) and then find a spot with a committee member to do the final. Someone on the committee is always in a 2 or 3 ball at some point; although they wouldn't be obliged to take on a non-h'cap player in a weekend comp, I know they would.

 

[Smiffy]

Another "friend" of mine is a member of a club. Has a handicap of 16. Never, ever hands a card in. Ever.
He's been off 16 for God knows how long. He's not happy unless he's in the frame at Society do's, and he hates the stroke index 17 and 18 holes. How dare he only get two points for a par.
So who's the bigger "cheat?"
Him? Or my other mate who wants to get a handicap that accurately reflects his true standard of play by a method which the majority feel is unfair and dishonest?
I know who I'd rather play my golf against.
And I know in my heart of hearts which one of them is the most dishonest.
Cheers

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I have to say I've been following this thread during the day and have just come back after playing a few holes and I have to say I'm finding it hard to make an honest answer. One of my major concerns would be over penalty shots and did he know the rules enough to proceed correctly adn count these. I'm not knocking his integrity but just playing devils advocate.

On the other hand if I'd known him that long and was sure he was being realistic about his handicap and the problems he had been having there is a part of me that always wants to help a mate out.

The only other stumbling block I see is if it comes to light that the cards weren't marked correctly and how the fall out would impact on your mates standing and yours within the club.

On balance I'd try and persuade him to get the pro to help arrange a game or put a note on the noticeboard in the locker room asking for a game so as not to have to face the situation (call it taking the cowards way out if you like). I would really hate to be in that situation

 

[golf_bug]

Its a big no from me.

If he is going to struggle to turn up to play 3 rounds with partners then how is he going to find time to make use of his hcp when he gets it?

He may be the most trustworthy guy in the world but the rules is the rules.

Where is it written into the local rules of most golf clubs?
I think you will find with a lot of clubs its just a word of mouth acceptance of the done thing or a guideline rather than a rule.

Otherwise everyone and I do mean everyone would have to follow this process when joining a club even if they had a h/c to begin with. So what would happen if joe bloggs who played off 3 at a previous club, had a bad three rounds joining a new club and carded 80 per card, what would the rigid followers of the three card system do then? Call him a cheat no doubt, or give him a 3 h/c regardless, making the process in that cases rediculous.

There is such a thing as credibility, like that of a pro, or someone with a h/c at a previous club that can be easily varified by picking up a phone, there is also the credibility of the word of a member, which in my view is likely to carry more weight than 3 cards may do.

Is the pro who was responsible for dealing with new members h/caps a cheat,when he sees three cards correctly obtained and signed indicating a 12 h/c standard, but chooses to give said player an 8 h/c, knowing that this player already had 8 at previous club, or does doing this invalidate the 3 card process? If the 3 cards are of little importance in this sense, why are they so much more important when someone honest signs after the fact for someone they know well?

As far as being able to turn up goes, this is not always the problem, the problem is finding someone to go round with to mark your card, and on a quiet day this is not always easy. Sometimes at a new club it can be hard to get any assistance even if they are busy with members, it all depends on the day, the time and what others are doing, or have to do .

Applying your logic then there is no rule and therefore this would not be considered cheating.

The policy at my club is that a new member with no hcp has to hand in 3 cards signed by a playing partner. When I joined the club they asked me if I had a hcp certificate from a previous club, so presumaby that would be taken into consideration in your hypothetical scenario.

Here's another one....Gary Player joins a new club in 5 years time. He has won several majors but his best days are behind him. The hcp committee see this joker coming and make him play off +3, despite not being able to hit a ball more than 100yrds for the past 5 years. Is that fair?

 

[HomerJSimpson]

I think it has to be discretionary. If I went to another club next week and had an up to date handicap certificate from RA I wouldn't expect to be asked to put 3 cards in as that is the handicap I've been defending all year. However if I pitched up with a certificate thats 9-12 months old then I think it would be reasonable to be expected to put cards in as that handicap may not be a true reflection on my current ability

 

[Handycap]

This is not a life or death situation. It is merely a method to determine the playing ability of an individual and how this person's ability is reflected amongst fellow members. Most sports don't rely on a handicap system. The purpose of a handicap is to allow an individual to play competitively against others of mixed ability.

For that reason it is only fair that the initial advantage an individual receives (over scratch) should be reflected in the way that handicap is determined; three cards witnessed at the time the rounds were played.

I posed the question earlier, if your playing partner innocently miscounted his score as five, when others knew it to be six, would you say something? The answer should most definitely be yes. So it is that a qualifying card should be witnessed and verified at the time of play in order to avoid such errors. If not witnessed at the time of play, how can you be sure the card is error free. This is not an accusation that your friend is cheating, but it takes away any question of a genuine error mistakenly being construed as cheating.

The rules state you must sign your card. Failure to sign your card forfeits a game, but it doesn't make you a cheat.

 

[CrapHacker]

Similarly, if you played with someone you know, who shoots a good score, without marking a card, would you accept him filling in the card from memory in the club house, and sign it for h/cap purposes or a general play card?

If I'd just played with him, I'd hope I could remember pretty much exactly how the round went, at least until I left the carpark. I used to be able to talk my wife through every shot of my round, and my playing partners round, when I got in. I never could work out why she fell asleep on me. Not quite sure I could do it now after a couple of hours, but straight away, no problem.

I have an admission to make.

My name is CrapHacker, and I am a senile old fart. Just played a round this evening, and there were definately a couple of shots I'm not 1000% sure of.

As for coming back to this thread after 2.5 gazillion posts, I find it a shame that some people would put a trivial rule in a trivial game ( for that's all this is really ) in front of helping a really good mate.

If you put golf in front of friendship, where do you draw the line. Would you go out and play golf and leave the Mrs at home on her own, watching Eastenders ?

Errrrr

Ok, I'll get my coat.

 

[backwoodsman]

Have read through the thread and all I can say is, Smiffy, if you want to sign it, then sign it. If you don't, don't. We can't make or justify the decison for you.

 

[DCB]

Will it be okay if he uses his old King Cobra Unlimited SZ 440 driver. After all he is a trusted best mate ?

Can he also take a couple of extra clubs along just to be sure, they might come in handy at some stage of the round.

Marker
A “marker’’ is one who is appointed by the Committee to record a
competitor’s score in stroke play. He may be a fellow-competitor. He is not a referee.

6-6. Scoring in Stroke Play
a. Recording Scores
After each hole the marker should check the score with the competitor and record it. On completion of the round the marker must sign the score card and hand it to the competitor. If more than one marker records the scores, each must sign for the part for which he is responsible.

Anyone with the definitions book can look up 6-6a/2 for someone who doesn't have a marker for the full round.

 

[Leftie]

Smiffy. Does your mate regularly play in society or corporate days or the like?

If so, it is possible that his club committee may accept some of these cards (properly signed of course) as evidence of his skill level. This is allowed for by CONGU http://www.congu.com/template1.asp?pid=234

When I was looking to leave Westerham my handicap was 16. I knew that I would have to wait a while at the new club before getting 7 day unrestricted and felt that with a lower handicap, I might be able to speed up that process. I had had some good rounds in our society so got the cards back from the organiser and put them in to Westerham. They were happy to cut me to 14 based on those cards.

As it happens, when I joined the Sundridge Park I don't think that I ever had to produce a h/cap certificate from Westerham. They just took my word for it.

 

[viscount17]

I don't know, go away for a few days and come back to moral dilemmas,

1. I'd rather he didn't put me, his supposed best mate, into this position.

2. Why didn't he ask me to play the round with him, was it really absolutely the only time he could play?

3. faking a handicap <u>for any reason</u> is wrong.