Would you consider this cheating????

[Smiffy]

Scenario....

You have a friend who has just joined your golf club and needs to hand 3 scorecards in to attain his handicap.
You have known the guy for years, and trust him 100%.
For various reasons, he is finding it increasingly difficult to get to the club during competition or busy times and therefore finding it also very difficult to arrange playing partners.
If he went out on his own, and marked a card for himself, and you knew (because you trust him 100%) that the scores he marked down were correct would you mark his card as if you had played with him and allow him to hand it in for handicap purposes? The score you put down for yourself is irrelevant, the card is merely being submitted to attain a handicap for your friend.
Rob

 

[DCB]

I certainly wouldn't be happy with someone who did that.

Cards need to be properly recorded and signed by both player and marker, the marker being the one who witnessed the score being made.

Big no,no as far as I'm concerned.

 

[CrapHacker]

It depends.....

The obvious answer is no, it's not the right thing to do.

But what if ...

What if he needed an official h/c certificate to go play a top course. What if he'd already handed in two cards, and this score tallies pretty much exactly with them.

And he's a good mate, who I've known for years and trust.

And there's no way I could drop everything and go and actually play that round with him.

Then maybe.

But it wouldn't be something that comes easy.

Now if he'd asked me to do something easy, like lie on a job aplication for him. THAT would be a no brainer.

Funny game golf, it brings out the morality in me.

Having said that, I knicked a Srixon off the driving range last night, so maybe there's no hope after all.

 

[Smiffy]

I can understand the "moral" implications here, but I wanted to stress the fact that you had known the guy for years, and trusted him 100%. You know the scores that he put down were correct, without you having to be there with him.
I have played with loads of guys that I trust, and when they say they have scored 4 on a hole, I don't even question it...I know that they have.
There are others that I have played with over the years who's scores I will always play over in my mind when we are walking off the green as they have been known to make mistakes in the past.
But this particular guy? Never in doubt.

I mean, how far would you go to help a friend?
Another scenario is that he doesn't hold an official handicap for whatever reason. Left a club a few years ago, been a "nomad" golfer for a while but still capable of a decent round, say 10 handicap. He wants to go and play a "top" course, (not an open or competition, just a casual round), but a lack of official certificate prevents him from playing it.
Would you "loan" him your handicap certificate????

 

[Parmo]

Smiffy its not the point though, loads of people have been new to clubs and struggled, you have to play at times and with people you don't know with the added pressure of card in hand for a handicap. I can play a round on my own to 15 hcp and below but put a hcp card in my hand with others or in a comp the game is totally different. In my eyes I would not help him because he is not just cheating others but himself.

Would you "loan" him your handicap certificate????

No, its the reason why most of us pay loads each year. I could of just got a season ticket for the course and played 24/7 but I wanted to be in comps and have an offcial hcp and so had to pay £125 to the club attached to the course (muni). There is no excuse why nomad golfers can not join a muni club or society to receive their hcp's.

 

[CrapHacker]

I can understand the "moral" implications here, but I wanted to stress the fact that you had known the guy for years, and trusted him 100%. You know the scores that he put down were correct, without you having to be there with him.
I have played with loads of guys that I trust, and when they say they have scored 4 on a hole, I don't even question it...I know that they have.
There are others that I have played with over the years who's scores I will always play over in my mind when we are walking off the green as they have been known to make mistakes in the past.
But this particular guy? Never in doubt.

I mean, how far would you go to help a friend?
Another scenario is that he doesn't hold an official handicap for whatever reason. Left a club a few years ago, been a "nomad" golfer for a while but still capable of a decent round, say 10 handicap. He wants to go and play a "top" course, (not an open or competition, just a casual round), but a lack of official certificate prevents him from playing it.
Would you "loan" him your handicap certificate????

Yup.

The only thing I have about marking a fake round is it being on my doorstep. If another member saw him out there, and knew he was playing solo, many would quite happily grass you both up, and it'd all get messy.

I mean, it's only a game. I wouldn't help him get a falsely low h/c, and I'd prefer to skive off work early one afternoon, and actually mark a card for him. But if I had to ( repeat HAD to ), my loyalty to my friend would win over my loyalty to the club.

 

[CrapHacker]

Would you "loan" him your handicap certificate????

No, its the reason why most of us pay loads each year. I could of just got a season ticket for the course and played 24/7 but I wanted to be in comps and have an offcial hcp and so had to pay £125 to the club attached to the course (muni). There is no excuse why nomad golfers can not join a muni club or society to receive their hcp's.

But say he's had to stop membership coz he's been made redundant, but has won a GM comp to play Wentworth.

And he's your best mate, remember. He loves the game, but has to put his wife and kids first, so golf goes on the back burner, for a while at least.

And he IS your best mate.

Are you saying you'd stop him playing on a top course, just coz he's short of cash ?

 

[USER1999]

I would hope never to be put in this situation, and until then, I have no idea which way I would jump.

Similarly, if you played with someone you know, who shoots a good score, without marking a card, would you accept him filling in the card from memory in the club house, and sign it for h/cap purposes or a general play card?

 

[Smiffy]

Similarly, if you played with someone you know, who shoots a good score, without marking a card, would you accept him filling in the card from memory in the club house, and sign it for h/cap purposes or a general play card?

If I had played with him during that round?
If I knew him and trusted him implicitly?
Yes I would.

 

[CrapHacker]

Similarly, if you played with someone you know, who shoots a good score, without marking a card, would you accept him filling in the card from memory in the club house, and sign it for h/cap purposes or a general play card?

If I'd just played with him, I'd hope I could remember pretty much exactly how the round went, at least until I left the carpark. I used to be able to talk my wife through every shot of my round, and my playing partners round, when I got in. I never could work out why she fell asleep on me. Not quite sure I could do it now after a couple of hours, but straight away, no problem.

 

[Parmo]

But say he's had to stop membership coz he's been made redundant, but has won a GM comp to play Wentworth.

And he's your best mate, remember. He loves the game, but has to put his wife and kids first, so golf goes on the back burner, for a while at least.

And he IS your best mate.

Are you saying you'd stop him playing on a top course, just coz he's short of cash ?

Sorry but thats still no excuse, I am being made redundant and have had to cancel weekends away and day trips. At the end of the day I wouldnt but each to their own.

 

[Faldo_Fan]

This is an easy one to answer......NO!!!!

 

[Faldo_Fan]

Sorry!!!....to clarify.....No i wouldn't mark a make believe card. And YES it is cheating!

 

[CliveW]

If he can find time to go out on his own, why can't he arrange to play with another member of the club. The three cards don't have to be played during a competition, they only need to be signed by a memeber. Are there not any members who are prepared to accompany him?

 

[heronsghyll]

An interesting thread - but I think a slight issue has been missed which I would like to add.

The issue is - in the scenario described all the guy wants is a handicap so he can begin to play. Not to win a competition/trophy/holiday etc.

Once he has his handicap it will go up and down acording to how he plays under competition conditions. At the end of the day - I do not believe it is cheating to help a guy get started, especially someone you have known for years.

Personally, I would sign a card, provided the person concerned had 2 x legitimate cards he had created and had got signed by others. Making up a similar third card is not an issue for me if it helps him get going.

To me having an offical handicap is not a static thing or a "goal" to shoot for. Handicaps move up and down (as we all know) all the time, so if he has one too low, it will sort itself out.

Everyone who is a member of club is entitled to a handicap by virtue of their membership fee. When a new guy joins without a handicap, the club admin want 3 cards to get a feel for his ability. If you know the guy and have done for years, are you not the best placed person to advise the club on his ability?

Just a thought to prolong the (interesting) debate.

 

[Parmo]

It took me 2 months to get my cards in through winter and to be able to handle the pressure of playing with strangers. I was offered by some good friends to mark my cards or so to speak fabrecate them but I turned it down due to it being cheating and not only that but cheating myself.

Golf with mates and alone is a world apart from playing in comps or with strangers, its the same as people who look great on the range but crumble out on the course.

I used to phone the club up through the week and ask if there was any members I can join up with to mark a card, I fail to see why your friend can not do the same as its all part of club life.

 

[Smiffy]

A few have commented on "an artificially low handicap" being obtained.
If this were the case, who is the guy "cheating?".
I could understand it if he were trying to obtain an artificially high handicap but this is something I have never understood about handicap adjustments.
I always maintained, (in the bad old days), that if somebody didn't hand cards in (for whatever reason) their handicap should come DOWN not go UP. This would soon eradicate the problem of pot hunters not regularly handing cards in to protect their handicaps.
The only "make believe" score in this particular instance would be the markers. That's why I was keen to point out that the markers score was irrelevant. It wouldn't be a competition round, or a card used to get the markers handicap adjusted, just a card handed in to get the players handicap awarded. I was also keen to point out that the player concerned had a history of scoring correctly, and an integrity and honesty that was beyond reproach.
As Heronsgyhll states, an "interesting" debate.

 

[Fyldewhite]

To me the question is "What does this say about your friends character if he is clearly happy to bend this rule ?".

My view is that if you are going to play this game then you should be prepared to follow the rules religiously. That way you will not go far wrong. Even if your friends motives are innocent (which I'm sure they are from what you say), condoning rule breaking for some means that others who are less honest will just take advantage.

 

[Tommo21]

Scenario....

You have a friend who has just joined your golf club and needs to hand 3 scorecards in to attain his handicap.
You have known the guy for years, and trust him 100%.
For various reasons, he is finding it increasingly difficult to get to the club during competition or busy times and therefore finding it also very difficult to arrange playing partners.
If he went out on his own, and marked a card for himself, and you knew (because you trust him 100%) that the scores he marked down were correct would you mark his card as if you had played with him and allow him to hand it in for handicap purposes? The score you put down for yourself is irrelevant, the card is merely being submitted to attain a handicap for your friend. Rob

No.

 

[USER1999]

Now an interesting thing here is that the initial h/cap is based on 3 cards. Now it used to be some form of average, but now you seem to get the lowest card used only.

As a result, if the card he marked himself is the lowest, then he can only be cheating himself (as I have never heard of a bandit playing off too low a h/cap), and if it is the highest, then it will be discarded anyway.

It is only if he is suspected of throwing out the parachute in the final round that it goes wrong, and this is what can never be proved, even if you played the round with him. Some people just crumble when on a good card, and some bung out a parachute deliberately.

It is cheating, but what difference does it make in the grand scheme of things. Nothing.