World Handicap System has created a more level playing field ?

[jim8flog]

To be fair, senior comps tend to have very few single

Not where I play, although they are well out numbered by the over 20s.

 

[cliveb]

I would disagree somewhat here.
Years ago 42/44 pts would win a comp and a good day for a low man you could compete with that. Just.
Now comps are won with 48/50 pts and I don’t know and have never met a low man who has scored that.

I keep seeing these reports of outrageous scores coming in, but it just isn't happening at my club.
I took a look at all the individual stableford comps this year, and here is the distribution of winning scores:



As you can see, there is one outlier of 46 (and one of 33), but the rest all look pretty normal to me.

 

[IanM]

I wonder what Clive's graph would look like for Opens? Especially Pairs Opens with good prize tables?

 

[jim8flog]

To be fair, senior comps tend to have very few single digit players, and yes such a small sample size if not going to prove anything

I would add

I chose seniors comp because we have a much better mix of handicaps.

In our Saturday Medals (handicap comps) we have very few 20+ handicap players generally the make up some where in the region of 25-30% of the field.

A quick scan of those comps over the past 5 years shows that most winners (they are trophy comps) are in the range 10-20 and shows very little difference between pre and post WHS.

 

[cliveb]

I wonder what Clive's graph would look like for Opens? Especially Pairs Opens with good prize tables?

My wife and I played in Stover's mixed 4BBB open this year. The winning score was 42, which seems like a fairly modest score for a better ball.
I can recall playing in other opens from long before WHS where the winning scores were much higher.
I believe the top prize was about £100 each (Stover pro shop vouchers, not cash). We were 4th and got £50 each.
I guess the bandits must seek out opens with higher value prizes.

 

[IanM]

My wife and I played in Stover's mixed 4BBB open this year. The winning score was 42, which seems like a fairly modest score for a better ball.
I can recall playing in other opens from long before WHS where the winning scores were much higher.
I believe the top prize was about £100 each (Stover pro shop vouchers, not cash). We were 4th and got £50 each.
I guess the bandits must seek out opens with higher value prizes.

42 would have got you nowhere in any event I've played this year

 

[Backsticks]

I wonder what Clive's graph would look like for Opens? Especially Pairs Opens with good prize tables?

Those are two very leading questions.

So what is wrong? The system is the same for everybody. Why such discrepancies between crazy score clubs, and as-you-were clubs? Our distribution of winning score has not changed with whs. Or even with opening comoetition handicaps to above 28, which we had restricted in the first year of 28+.
Are some clubs not implementing it correctly? Is there a cultural difference : fewer cards being submitted, poor policing of new hcs, or widespread hanidcap manipulation? Is the problem with 40hc putting the 50 pts, or 10hcs ?
Or is it all in the mind, and not backed up by reality ? A few of us have posted summaries that indicate reasonable score and similar to UHS. Has anyone real data where 42 doesnt compete and 50 stableford is common ?

 

[Backsticks]

Our Opens wins look to be lower than members weekend comp, but would seem maybe due to smaller fields. Opens have 40-50. Weekends, 90 +.
Prizes are relatively modest in all comps I guess, so I cant see that people are cheating to win vouchers. Prizes are £80, £60, £40. It isnt going to make anyone rich.

 

[clubchamp98]

I keep seeing these reports of outrageous scores coming in, but it just isn't happening at my club.
I took a look at all the individual stableford comps this year, and here is the distribution of winning scores:

View attachment 44016

As you can see, there is one outlier of 46 (and one of 33), but the rest all look pretty normal to me.

I understand.
But just because it’s not happening at yours dosnt mean it’s not happening elsewhere.
We had a lot of new members and Ladies join over the last few years.
They have butchered the rough to keep play moving.
That plus some very dodgy handicaps have caused the high scores imo.
125 yrs nobody shot sub 60 ,last 2 years there has been 6 players done it.
How would that look on a graph.

 

[Backsticks]

I understand.
But just because it’s not happening at yours dosnt mean it’s not happening elsewhere.
We had a lot of new members and Ladies join over the last few years.
They have butchered the rough to keep play moving.
That plus some very dodgy handicaps have caused the high scores imo.
125 yrs nobody shot sub 60 ,last 2 years there has been 6 players done it.
How would that look on a graph.

Like the handicap committee is asleep on the job ?

 

[clubchamp98]

Like the handicap committee is asleep on the job ?

But what can they realistically do if people are putting cards in regularly.
It’s not the big handicappers scoring high.
It’s guys off 18/20 mostly that have picked up a few shots under WHS.
Plus Imho it’s the set up of the course as well
If you hit fairways regularly nothing much has changed for you.
If you miss a lot there is no penalty , guys hitting 3 wood out of the rough that a few years ago was a wedge sideways.
The course is set up for wayward golfers who seem to have a few shots as well.
If yours is set up how it always was maybe that’s the reason your not seeing big scores.

 

[Backsticks]

If course setup, rough has been cut back, etc, club is supposed to have the course reassessed for course rating and slope. Have they done that ? Course difficulty should not change net scores. Maybe thats the problem.

 

[Backache]

If you miss a lot there is no penalty , guys hitting 3 wood out of the rough that a few years ago was a wedge sideways.
The course is set up for wayward golfers who seem to have a few shots as well.
If yours is set up how it always was maybe that’s the reason your not seeing big scores.

Is that how the course is planned or is it because of little growth because of lack of rain?

Our semi rough is as thick as I remember it in the West of Scotland because it's been very warm but also had plenty of rain.

 

[clubchamp98]

Is that how the course is planned or is it because of little growth because of lack of rain?

Our semi rough is as thick as I remember it in the West of Scotland because it's been very warm but also had plenty of rain.

No it’s been like that for a few years now.
Lack of rain has made it worse as it’s burned away what rough there was.
The course set up is to easy imo.
It’s being set up to stop players losing balls and taking 4.5 hrs to get around.
This has impacted on the scores of the guy having a “ good day”

 

[Backache]

No it’s been like that for a few years now.
Lack of rain has made it worse as it’s burned away what rough there was.
The course set up is to easy imo.
It’s being set up to stop players losing balls and taking 4.5 hrs to get around.
This has impacted on the scores of the guy having a “ good day”

I have to say I approve of rough where you can't lose a ball, slow rounds are a pain and ball hunting is no fun.
But there must be a happy medium, our managed rough is thick and you need quite a high loft unless you've got really thick forearms but you don't lose the ball.

 

[clubchamp98]

I have to say I approve of rough where you can't lose a ball, slow rounds are a pain and ball hunting is no fun.
But there must be a happy medium, our managed rough is thick and you need quite a high loft unless you've got really thick forearms but you don't lose the ball.

Yes that’s what we used to have. It explains the lack of silly scores at your club because your punished a shot for missing the fairway.
At ours atm your not.
But I think the set up has changed to accommodate the newer players
Right or wrong depends on your point of view or how good a golfer you are.
We all hit bad shots but there is very little punishment atm.

 

[woofers]

I wonder what Clive's graph would look like for Opens? Especially Pairs Opens with good prize tables?

 

[Deleted member 15344]

The ladies section have reacted to one lady who beat someone 8&7 playing off 40 something HC - the lady beaten is one of the more “influential” ones and so they have now decided to go back to maximum HC of 36 ?

They encouraged the lady to enter - she beat one of them and now they will make sure she can’t win again

 

[cliveb]

All this talk of courses being set up too easy kind of misses the point.
If a course is set up easy, then people who get lucky and score well despite missing lots of fairways will get low differentials and their HCP indexes will reduce accordingly.

 

[Colin L]

Another factor? If a course is set up significantly easier than when it was rated, its CR could be too high.