WHS and club competitions

[D-S]

Ironically, when Handicap Committees are given freedom to move the Playing Handicap percentage , I reckon most will move them all to 100% of Course Handicap, giving them an easier life, and giving the lower handicappers more fuel to moan.

I think that may well be true. The most moans received in the early days were all to do with 95% in singles. EG had to put out an explainer out about it as it was criticised by so many.
That’s not going to go down well with some.
Unless the ISVs come up with something very cute (this isn’t an EG issue it’s a competition software one), like an automatic application of handicap allowance % dependent on field size and handicap distribution this is going to be a tough choice for Committees. This % will of course need to be advised to player’s prior to play as otherwise they won’t know where they get their shots in Stablefords. This of course cannot apply to roll up/enter on the day comps or if there are changes to the field.
Looks pretty messy to me.

 

[Dunesman]

Unfortunately in larger fields with a wide range of handicaps it's a case of picking your poison - by balancing the chance of winning, the chance of a top 10 finish is greatly reduced for higher handicappers; balance the chance of a top 10 and the low handicappers have a greatly reduced chance of winning.

Balance it for equal chances of winning. Thats what competition is about. If that distorts the chances of being eigth, so be it. We accept that imperfection.
The Irish solution needs fuller guidance : according to field size, what is the best factor to equalize wins ? Then choose that accordingly.

 

[Dunesman]

Make the comps scratch then, not handicap. Then the best player really does win. If it is a h/c comp then everyone on the first tee has to have a genuine chance to win. The better players are still more likely to win as they are more consistent.

The balance has to be right, not loaded one way or the other.

Agree fully on the equal chance of winning. But scratch comps is not a solution at all. We are talking about handicapped competition which is the essential element that lets the other 95% enjoy competitive golf against each other in the first place even though we can differ greatly in golfing skill.
Better players more likely to win due to consistency, is not strictly correct. It depends on the calculation of the handicap. The 95% slants against the chances of the better golfer, even though he is more consistent. Maybe 90% equalises it. But we need to know. EG has banged the drum for 4 years that 95 is equitable and the best compromis. But now that they will have a range of factors to choose from, the need to provide the data that models the chances of winning (and high placing, for those interested in that) for different handicap ranges, and the different factors. If not, then it will not only be likely unsatisfactory to many as the fixed 95 is, but even more confusing, open to conspiracy, and anarchy.

Is the problem that in providing this, it will expose some truth bending from the last four years as they tried to hold the line on 95 % ? Anyway, thats my conspiracy theory of the day.

 

[D-S]

Balance it for equal chances of winning. Thats what competition is about. If that distorts the chances of being eigth, so be it. We accept that imperfection.
The Irish solution needs fuller guidance : according to field size, what is the best factor to equalize wins ? Then choose that accordingly.

What if you don’t know the field size and handicap distribution prior to play?

 

[Backache]

What if you don’t know the field size and handicap distribution prior to play?

I would go with my suggestion above

You have a range of competitions with different expectations ranging from 70% to 105% (for example) and people can enter them as appropriate.

You can have the rabbits rosebowl where 105% or more of a handicap is given and the elite handicappers where it is 70% of H/cap

 

[D-S]

This is the ‘official’ EG response to the article.

“Nothing confirmed here in England at all, so no changes to discuss. Golf Ireland are running a pilot in 2025 to measure impact and gather further data. Regards. Mike.”

 

[Dunesman]

What if you don’t know the field size and handicap distribution prior to play?

Doesnt impede making a best choice. Generally reasonally predictable, and doesnt have to be accurate to one golfer. So set as best as possible. Whatever, its way better than one factor fits all no matter the field size.

 

[rulie]

Balance it for equal chances of winning. Thats what competition is about. If that distorts the chances of being eigth, so be it. We accept that imperfection.
The Irish solution needs fuller guidance : according to field size, what is the best factor to equalize wins ? Then choose that accordingly.

As I've said before, the winner is part of the top 10.

 

[Dunesman]

This is the ‘official’ EG response to the article.

“Nothing confirmed here in England at all, so no changes to discuss. Golf Ireland are running a pilot in 2025 to measure impact and gather further data. Regards. Mike.”

Maybe EG were blind sided. Ireland either the canary in the mine, or they are ahead of the posse.

It does seem somewhat kneejerk though. I am all for it. Some action was needed. But still surprised it has come out there for implementation in a few weeks, and with what is published at least (maybe something more fuller is in the hands of the clubs. Our Derry reporter ?), very skimpy guidance.
Either GB&I in toto, or Ireland alone has been spooked by something. That EG were publicly saying nothing in the pipeline, only a few weeks ago, sounds like they didnt get the message coordated. Or Ireland has acted alone, which seems unlikely.
Its a big step in the right direction, but a little rushed.
If truly a trial, then how will they measure the results ? Heresay ? Happy feedback from forums ? Hard data on competition results ? Hard to know what they are looking for really.

 

[Dunesman]

As I've said before, the winner is part of the top 10.

That occured to me. Your point being though ?

 

[D-S]

Maybe EG were blind sided. Ireland either the canary in the mine, or they are ahead of the posse.

It does seem somewhat kneejerk though. I am all for it. Some action was needed. But still surprised it has come out there for implementation in a few weeks, and with what is published at least (maybe something more fuller is in the hands of the clubs. Our Derry reporter ?), very skimpy guidance.
Either GB&I in toto, or Ireland alone has been spooked by something. That EG were publicly saying nothing in the pipeline, only a few weeks ago, sounds like they didnt get the message coordated. Or Ireland has acted alone, which seems unlikely.
Its a big step in the right direction, but a little rushed.
If truly a trial, then how will they measure the results ? Heresay ? Happy feedback from forums ? Hard data on competition results ? Hard to know what they are looking for really.

The EG person who penned the response actually sits on the GB&I Technical Committee who were the ones who apparently recommended the move.
He is now claiming it is a trial and no changes to discuss, although the article quotes a GB&I Board member who clearly states that it will be implemented in 2026 by all the home nations. How this wasn’t even hinted at or downplayed or mentioned in passing inthe workshop led by the respondent is beyond me.
Really poor communication.

 

[Dunesman]

Credit to NCG for bringing this to notice. A followup article today, on the same topic, and is measured in its view. En passant, interesting that they say authorities are also analysing data for a further upcoming PCC change. Its a smaller issue, but one I think can be improved also.

 

[rulie]

That occured to me. Your point being though ?

Seems to me that one of the points of criticism of the handicap system is that low handicappers have lost something, and that they are only likely to finish in the top ten. Just pointing out than top ten includes winning.

 

[Dunesman]

Seems to me that one of the points of criticism of the handicap system is that low handicappers have lost something, and that they are only likely to finish in the top ten. Just pointing out than top ten includes winning.

I am aware of the fact of your statement. I still dont see the relevance when even if in the top ten, their finish is skewed significantly away from first place.

 

[rulie]

I am aware of the fact of your statement. I still dont see the relevance when even if in the top ten, their finish is skewed significantly away from first place.

And if their placing in the top ten is first place? Who said it was “skewed significantly away from first”?

 

[badgergm]

I don't think it would be wise for them to interact though. There are clearly people who will be unrelenting in their criticism and will be completely unobjective in any debate or discussion. There would be a risk of any representative being dragged into an immature debate that is going nowhere. You'd have an uneducated golfer trying to question the credibility of somebody whose profession is golf.

And, it is probably a stretch to think any of our individual opinions is actually worth anything. Can't even agree with each other most of the time. Easiest for EG to silently watch on, get an idea of the most controversial golf topics, how many golfers are contributing to the discussion, etc

They do interact in other places.

 

[rulie]

They do interact in other places.

Reminds me of an anecdote about arguing with fools -
"Never argue with a fool, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.” – Mark Twain

 

[Dunesman]

This is the ‘official’ EG response to the article.

“Nothing confirmed here in England at all, so no changes to discuss. Golf Ireland are running a pilot in 2025 to measure impact and gather further data. Regards. Mike.”

Hi Mike,

No mention of it being a pilot at all in the Golf Ireland publication. They say simply that it will apply from April 1st (oops! have we fallen for an Irish joke !) and is in response to feedback from their clubs (so they are listening to their member clubs. A feeling I dont get that EG does).

"Why is Golf Ireland doing this?
Consistent feedback indicates that many clubs feel the need for more options to address specific issues they are encountering with handicapping in their competitions. Moreover, a similar trendline in the feedback has indicated that lower handicappers in a number of clubs feel less competitive as a result of the changeover to the WHS, and in some cases are even less inclined to play in club competitions. In these circumstances, the option to lower the Playing Handicap allowance is one that club committees may wish to consider."

Maybe everyone in England is happy. Or GI seems more open than EG to listening to feedback that ideally they didnt want to hear. It puts paid to the line, also repeated by some posters here, that they dont hear any demand for changes to WHS, and dont think its a common topic of discussion among ordianry members in ordinary everyday clubs. GI is not only acknowledging that it is, but have moved quickly, and significantly, to address the concern. Maybe EG officials only listen to each other, and not the grass roots ?

I see GI runs a facebook page for its members there. The top post on it regarding the other change they have this year for entry to competitions, speaks loud and clear of a Mr O'Donnell's view on WHS ! Not quite Joyce or Yeats, but getting his messge to them ! But credit to GI who do seem to be taking notice, rather than turning the blind eye.

"John ODonnell
Or you could just scrap the WHS which has caused all these problems in the first place, the WHS does not work in Ireland and shame on Golf Ireland for standing idly by this flawed system knowing that it is destroying club golf the length and breath of the island of Ireland. Shame on golf Ireland officials for introducing this sham system into Irish golf. If any of the Golf Ireland hierarchy think the WHS is a great system then maybe they are in the wrong job. Question. How does golf club members of Golf Ireland go about calling an EGM to scrap the WHS and go back to the old system?
For any members of golf clubs who are totally against WHS, bring it up to council talk amongst the members, email your club secretary/manager, email Golf Ireland although GI will probably ignore you, get your club to email GI, send emails to other clubs in your province asking for their members opinions about WHS, Let's all stand together and say enough is enough. This madness must be stopped."

 

[Dunesman]

The EG person who penned the response actually sits on the GB&I Technical Committee who were the ones who apparently recommended the move.
He is now claiming it is a trial and no changes to discuss, although the article quotes a GB&I Board member who clearly states that it will be implemented in 2026 by all the home nations. How this wasn’t even hinted at or downplayed or mentioned in passing inthe workshop led by the respondent is beyond me.
Really poor communication.

It would seem this forum is better informed than EG.

 

[Slab]

Hi Mike,

No mention of it being a pilot at all in the Golf Ireland publication. They say simply that it will apply from April 1st (oops! have we fallen for an Irish joke !) and is in response to feedback from their clubs (so they are listening to their member clubs. A feeling I dont get that EG does).

"Why is Golf Ireland doing this?
Consistent feedback indicates that many clubs feel the need for more options to address specific issues they are encountering with handicapping in their competitions. Moreover, a similar trendline in the feedback has indicated that lower handicappers in a number of clubs feel less competitive as a result of the changeover to the WHS, and in some cases are even less inclined to play in club competitions. In these circumstances, the option to lower the Playing Handicap allowance is one that club committees may wish to consider."

Maybe everyone in England is happy. Or GI seems more open than EG to listening to feedback that ideally they didnt want to hear. It puts paid to the line, also repeated by some posters here, that they dont hear any demand for changes to WHS, and dont think its a common topic of discussion among ordianry members in ordinary everyday clubs. GI is not only acknowledging that it is, but have moved quickly, and significantly, to address the concern. Maybe EG officials only listen to each other, and not the grass roots ?

I see GI runs a facebook page for its members there. The top post on it regarding the other change they have this year for entry to competitions, speaks loud and clear of a Mr O'Donnell's view on WHS ! Not quite Joyce or Yeats, but getting his messge to them ! But credit to GI who do seem to be taking notice, rather than turning the blind eye.

"John ODonnell
Or you could just scrap the WHS which has caused all these problems in the first place, the WHS does not work in Ireland and shame on Golf Ireland for standing idly by this flawed system knowing that it is destroying club golf the length and breath of the island of Ireland. Shame on golf Ireland officials for introducing this sham system into Irish golf. If any of the Golf Ireland hierarchy think the WHS is a great system then maybe they are in the wrong job. Question. How does golf club members of Golf Ireland go about calling an EGM to scrap the WHS and go back to the old system?
For any members of golf clubs who are totally against WHS, bring it up to council talk amongst the members, email your club secretary/manager, email Golf Ireland although GI will probably ignore you, get your club to email GI, send emails to other clubs in your province asking for their members opinions about WHS, Let's all stand together and say enough is enough. This madness must be stopped."

With several years worth of data available you'd like to think this change is based on more than the indication of a feeling