What Would You Change About the WHS?

[Orikoru]

If only there was a public forum where it could be discussed

Don't worry, there's always tomorrow's WHS topic.

 

[clubchamp98]

It doesnt need a complete revamp.

Much of WHS is either good, or the same as the previous system. In the end, half of it is much ado about nothing and comes to the same result : a handicap much the same as previously...in the main (the non main, see below).
A quarter of it is to the good : CR, Slope and CR-Par.
The final quarter has the points at issue which can really be distilled to just two.
1) That casual scores through an app, rather than a more tightly regulated competition structure can, and are encouraged to, form part of ones handicap development. This is the perceived Cheats Charter element. I would consider overestimated by its critics in its negative impact. But they are coloured by Pt.2 below. This element is a culture shock. UK golfers may acclimatise to it. Though maybe not, as it is in conflict with the competition structure golf landscape so many of us are used to.
2) Handicap volatility in WHS is too high, and incompatible with competition based golf. This is its biggest flaw by far, and also prompting the mistrust with finger pointing at deliberate misuse of Pt1 above as the cause.

Normal service can be easily restored, by either :
a) change the soft cap to 0.7, and the hard cap to 1.5. The would restore the key point of low anchoring of handicaps that is essential for fields of 20 to 150 golfers of mixed handicaps to compete as we did previously. Volatile handicaps are not a problem in sequences of one off matches or casual games American style. It even suits it, promoting close contests in one v one play. But large fields require a much more tightened scope to beat ones handicap.
or
b) apply a 0.85 factor for competitions woth more that 10 entrants. This is blunter at the upper end, and a less satisfactory fix that the more root cause fix that is option 1.

Has England Golf made any recent comment on the matter? Has anyone forwarded the links to the discussions of these pages ?

I very much dought they would listen to us!
They are supposed to have the finest golfing brains already there with the best mathematicians.

But they got us here !

 

[PaulMdj]

I’ll say it again “ that’s not WHS it’s CoC”

Whs has given him 40 .
It’s the club telling him he can only have 32.

There is a difference.

Have you complained to the Club how unfair that is?

 

[clubchamp98]

Have you complained to the Club how unfair that is?

That’s his problem.
Imo nobody should get more than 28.
So it’s a no.

But it’s still not a WHS problem.

 

[PaulMdj]

That’s his problem.
Imo nobody should get more than 28.
So it’s a no.

But it’s still not a WHS problem.

Understood, It’s OK to ignore the bits of WHS we don’t agree with.

 

[tobybarker]

12 months

The idea I commented on was to remove/discount cards that were older than 12 months (good or bad) as cards that old don't represent current form/ability
So I reasoned that the calculation formula would also have to change whenever a player no longer has at least 20 cards within last 12 months (i.e can't just do best 8 from 15 or whatever)

If you wish the hcp to reflect current form, using the average if the last 8 cards would be better. But is that actually what you want? On a statistical level, your most likely score ought to be your handicap, which is some mean, mode or median score (i didn't do stats at school so i don't pretend to understand it!)

 

[Voyager EMH]

I never seem to have anything other than erratic scoring. No "current form".

A good score seems just as likely to come after a bad score or a good score.

A run of good scores seems to come after a run of bad scores or erratic scoring.

A run of good scores does not seem to come after a run of good scores.

"You seem to be playing well recently" has a truthful answer, "It won't last."

 

[Klimski]

Issue I see with that one: You start the year 18.3, thus staying on 18.3 for the year. However, early season, you are clearly playing to a much lower handicap and continue that through the year. You might end up winning nearly every club competition if you really improve upon the previous year, and I think that would be demoralizing for every other competitor?

Yeah, I see that too. But then the next year you would win nothing at all - unless you kept improving I guess. Anyway, as I said, I don't see the downsides that much. But I am an 18 hcp and hardly ever play comps.

Another fix, that everyone would hate in equal measure: make it an elo style rating (chess): every score counts and your hcp is your average expected score in relation to the course you're playing. This would mean, however, that most scratch players would lose their beloved '0' - and I would likely go from 18 to 24 (or more)

 

[clubchamp98]

Understood, It’s OK to ignore the bits of WHS we don’t agree with.

Obviously not understood .
Your example has nothing to do with WHS.

 

[PaulMdj]

Obviously not understood .
Your example has nothing to do with WHS.

We either fully embrace WHS or we don’t, you don’t like the fact low handicappers seem to suffer more than most.
I don’t like the fact Clubs ignore its intentions and bring in local rules to change the bits they don’t like.

I see it all as WHS, you don’t, I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[clubchamp98]

We either fully embrace WHS or we don’t, you don’t like the fact low handicappers seem to suffer more than most.
I don’t like the fact Clubs ignore its intentions and bring in local rules to change the bits they don’t like.

They did that before WHS.

For what it’s worth I agree with you about restrictions in COC.
But that’s the individual clubs rules not WHS.
I can’t say it any clearer.

 

[PaulMdj]

They did that before WHS.

For what it’s worth I agree with you about restrictions in COC.
But that’s the individual clubs rules not WHS.
I can’t say it any clearer.

I’ll try one last time, WHS was brought in to help the game and move it forward.
By using Club Rules they are ignoring WHS intent.
I know what we/they did in the past, WHS meant we could move forward and stop the courses bringing in different rules, ie you have a max of 32, ours is 24 for Board Comps, WHS’s intent is no Club should need to place limits etc.

 

[Swango1980]

I’ll try one last time, WHS was brought in to help the game and move it forward.
By using Club Rules they are ignoring WHS intent.
I know what we/they did in the past, WHS meant we could move forward and stop the courses bringing in different rules, ie you have a max of 32, ours is 24 for Board Comps, WHS’s intent is no Club should need to place limits etc.

The Club Rules you are talking about are not ignoring WHS intent at all. In fact, I remember going to the WHS meeting headed by the lead at England Golf, who recommended that Clubs set their own conditions to meet their needs (Divisions, Handicap Limits, etc). Clubs have been doing that for years. If it was wrong, I'd have thought the likes of England Golf would be sending out strong general messages that it is wrong to the affiliated clubs.

As long as members can still submit scores and hold an accurate handicap, then the club are facilitating this player's handicap. It would also be recommended that there would be some competitions available for higher handicappers, which may be more general, non board Stablefords for example, or Rabbits type comps specifically for higher handicaps.

There is no right for every golfer to be able to play in every competition at their handicap. I don't whine because I can't qualify for competitions for very low handicappers, I accept I'm not at that level. The LUGC run a handicap league in the county, but nobody can play off an Index higher than 17. So, sometimes you get 20+ handicappers having to play off a much lower handicap. Are the LUGC ignoring the intent of WHS?

 

[clubchamp98]

I’ll try one last time, WHS was brought in to help the game and move it forward.
By using Club Rules they are ignoring WHS intent.
I know what we/they did in the past, WHS meant we could move forward and stop the courses bringing in different rules, ie you have a max of 32, ours is 24 for Board Comps, WHS’s intent is no Club should need to place limits etc.

Should and do are very different things.
I see what your saying.

So guy is a member at two clubs
One has a 24 limit for comps.
One has no limit so he gets his 40 shots.

Is this a club problem or a WHS problem that he only gets 24 at the first one?

 

[Steve Wilkes]

This is how I see it. WHS is a system to give the same Handicap Index (based on their scoring) around the world, using Course Rating, Stroke Rating, PCC and Best 8 from 20. and this I think it does very well.
The rest should be recommendations only on how Individuals, Clubs, & Authorities etc should use this Index.

 

[Backache]

I’ll try one last time, WHS was brought in to help the game and move it forward.
By using Club Rules they are ignoring WHS intent.

Is there any reason why they should not ignore WHS intent if that intent does not suit the local club. Is dictatorship your preferred form of administration?

 

[wjemather]

Is there any reason why they should not ignore WHS intent if that intent does not suit the local club.

What suits the local club (committee/captain/pro/vocal minority) is not always fair to everyone.

 

[Backache]

What suits the local club (committee/captain/pro/vocal minority) is not always fair to everyone.

Not always, but nor is the diktat from on high always suitable or fair for everyone.
At least at the local club you have some opportunity to discuss, dispose, depose or move.

 

[Orikoru]

That's another thing I would change actually. Limit it to 36 playing handicap. You can have an index of whatever but nobody ever gets more than 2 shots a hole. Three shots on a hole is a bit silly, and only encourages slow play as people putt out for 8s and 9s. The vast majority who are above 36 index will be improving pretty quickly anyway.

 

[PaulMdj]

Not always, but nor is the diktat from on high always suitable or fair for everyone.
At least at the local club you have some opportunity to discuss, dispose, depose or move.

That’s fine if done for genuine reasons, but just look at what’s happening around the UK based on what’s posted here:

For Comps;
Max Handicap 18
Max Handicap 24
Max Handicap 32

Some believe it should max 28 regardless, some 36.

Club rules for entering Comps:
1 year membership
3 Club Comps in previous 12 months
No barriers.

Look at the restrictions Golf Zireland is bringing in

No GP cards
Some GP cards

That’s a small example. Some Clubs are virtually dictatorships and for some it is who shouts loudest, even if it is the minority.